# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Politics as usual: another bad sign for world peace; Obama cowers to pro-Israelis

## BuffedGuy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMByV...eature=channel

Obama is a coward. His policy in Iraq and towards Israel is same old, same old.

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## Flagg

Hrm.

I noticed during his Inaugeration that he didn't mention Gaza at all. 

I guess Godfather and Murrilo are right. There is no difference between one President to the next, just lip service for the public.

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## Prada

Why is he a coward? Hes doing whats in his interest.

Anyways, listen to Obama yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cOJNC2EuJw

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## thegodfather

> Hrm.
> 
> I noticed during his Inaugeration that he didn't mention Gaza at all. 
> 
> I guess Godfather and Murrilo are right. There is no difference between one President to the next, just lip service for the public.


As we all know, when people on our side are fighting oppression they are 'freedom fighters.' When they are a differnt skin color, religion, or political ideology than our own, they are "terrorists."

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## BuffedGuy

> Why is he a coward? *Hes doing whats in his interest.
> *
> Anyways, listen to Obama yourself.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cOJNC2EuJw


A leader should not be doing what is in his best interest. Rather, he should do what is best for his nation, and more importantly (I believe), for the world--for peace and harmony.

The link you gave is more cowardice, i.e. groveling before the powerful AIPAC lobby.

Obama has now said that troops will be left in Iraq even after 2011, and worse than this, he has affirmed the "enemy combatant" bull-crap, only changing the name of it and not the substance of it. 

How exactly is any of this different than Bush's failed foreign policy?

We need someone brave like Ron Paul, not a selfish coward like Obama.

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## Prada

Yes by "his" I mean the nation's interest interpreted by him. Not his personal interest. 

I agree with what you are saying except for calling him a coward. Listen AIPAC is a powerful lobby because they have powerful positions and money. This equates to power and control. Mean while the Arabs decided to throw rocks at tanks, good luck with that. They also decided to let themselves be suppressed by their respective leaders and blame the west perpetually. If they want to achieve success(however they want that to be defined) then they must first start with correcting themselves and to stop blaming and whining. See one decided to educate themselves get involved in law and politics, the other decided to do noting except complain, learn the physics of how much damage a pebble can incur on a tank and learn how to detonate a bomb. Any nation will align themselves with the powers that be so its an easy decision for Obama.

Its all semantics Obama and Bush, they're is no real change. Its just an illusion that they are worlds apart but its just minor details that differ.

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## BuffedGuy

> Yes by "his" I mean the nation's interest interpreted by him. Not his personal interest.


Well, I disagree with that 100%. The nation's interest is to divest altogether from Israel, which would save us billions of dollars, and also placate the billion plus Muslims in the world. Such a move would do more to stop terrorism than anything. So no, I don't think it is in America's interest to spend more on each Israeli citizen than our government does on each American citizen. We give them billions of dollars per year, and looking at the way the economy is, we sure could use that money.

So no, it wasn't the nation's interest at all, but rather Obama's personal interest. Obama needed AIPAC's support to further his political career. Politics above policies. 




> I agree with what you are saying except for calling him a coward. Listen AIPAC is a powerful lobby because they have powerful positions and money. This equates to power and control. Mean while the Arabs decided to throw rocks at tanks, good luck with that. They also decided to let themselves be suppressed by their respective leaders and blame the west perpetually. If they want to achieve success(however they want that to be defined) then they must first start with correcting themselves and to stop blaming and whining. See one decided to educate themselves get involved in law and politics, the other decided to do noting except complain, learn the physics of how much damage a pebble can incur on a tank and learn how to detonate a bomb. Any nation will align themselves with the powers that be so its an easy decision for Obama.
> 
> Its all semantics Obama and Bush, they're is no real change. Its just an illusion that they are worlds apart but its just minor details that differ.


I agree with part of what you said, but I'm afraid that part of what you said is just incorrect oversimplification. It is just like when some whites tell blacks "you guys need to stop whining and get your act together."

The status quo of a society is a reflection of hundreds of years of events that have taken place which have shaped them in the way they are now. To cogitate that the Muslim world--or the Arabs--just let themselves "be suppressed" by their leaders, or that the Jews advanced simply because they chose to "be lawyers" as opposed to "doing nothing but whining" is, well, sophomoric.

Furthermore, contrary to what you think, there are millions of educated Muslim lawyers, engineers, and doctors...doctors galore! That is not going to change a thing.

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## Prada

> Well, I disagree with that 100%. The nation's interest is to divest altogether from Israel, which would save us billions of dollars, and also placate the billion plus Muslims in the world. Such a move would do more to stop terrorism than anything. So no, I don't think it is in America's interest to spend more on each Israeli citizen than our government does on each American citizen. We give them billions of dollars per year, and looking at the way the economy is, we sure could use that money.


Unfortunately I don't think all Muslim radicals are pacifists, they aren't exactly angels in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Spain the Philippines, Uk, USA, Canada(yes there were synagogues bombed by Muslims) and I could go on and on. I dont see Hindus, Buddhists or Jews committing terrorism at a wide scale around the world. Or is there an explanation for that that Muslim terrorists use to justify their means? Muslims have to start by looking at themselves or they can keep their current vision and get no where. They can start by looking at their own corrupt governments and do something about that prior to blaming others. Or they can keep blaming others and remain status quo. Im not starting a diatribe towards Muslims but they need to change their own environment first. IMO the best thing is a bi-polar powers keeping themselves in check.



> So no, it wasn't the nation's interest at all, but rather Obama's personal interest. Obama needed AIPAC's support to further his political career. Politics above policies.


AIPAC has a lot of political clout and weight. Yes we all know power and money rule the world. AIPAC has this within the USA the muslims not as much. If they did things would be the complete reciprocal.  :Smilie: 




> I agree with part of what you said, but I'm afraid that part of what you said is just incorrect oversimplification. It is just like when some whites tell blacks "you guys need to stop whining and get your act together."
> 
> The status quo of a society is a reflection of hundreds of years of events that have taken place which have shaped them in the way they are now. To cogitate that the Muslim world--or the Arabs--just let themselves "be suppressed" by their leaders, or that the Jews advanced simply because they chose to "be lawyers" as opposed to "doing nothing but whining" is, well, sophomoric.
> 
> Furthermore, contrary to what you think, there are millions of educated Muslim lawyers, engineers, and doctors...doctors galore! That is not going to change a thing.


How do you know I think that? Did I state such a thing? They need to be higher up in politics, CEOs and have close links of trade with the Arabs AND need unity. What would arabs be without oil? Nomads and many are still uncivilized(please note I say this in its pure definition not as a derogatory remark). I can attest to that Ive lived there a few years.

I really wish Muslims with their wealth of oil would fund education, modernize their ideology and promote democracy. That is how they will be a force to reckon with. Perhaps they need more people, perhaps as yourself, to lead a new generation towards equity and success.  :Smilie: 
Its easy to blame others for their own misfortunes but it is those who challenge themselves from within that come out stronger. They could chose to remain the proverbial "lapdog" of others.

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## BuffedGuy

> Unfortunately I don't think all Muslim radicals are pacifists, they aren't exactly angels in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Spain the Philippines, Uk, USA, Canada(yes there were synagogues bombed by Muslims) and I could go on and on.


I do not deny that Muslim terrorists exist. 

Rather, my point was that the ranks of Al-Qaeda and company swell whenever America and Israel invade and occupy Muslim lands, meddle in the internal affairs of Muslim countries, etc. 




> I dont see Hindus, Buddhists or Jews committing terrorism at a wide scale around the world.


I do not know about Buddhists, but I know for a fact that there are many Hindu and Jewish terrorists. You would not know the scale of the Hindu terrorism if you do not live where it is prevalent, namely in South Asia. You would not be cognizant of the Jewish terrorism if you did not live where it is prevalent, namely in Israel/Palestine.

Are there more "Muslim terrorists" that attack America? Sure. Why? As a reaction to the foreign policy. Therefore, as Dr. Ron Paul points out, stop the foreign policy, and the terrorism will slowly die out and lose gas.




> Or is there an explanation for that that Muslim terrorists use to justify their means?


Obviously they justify their actions, otherwise they wouldn't do them. 




> Muslims have to start by looking at themselves or they can keep their current vision and get no where. They can start by looking at their own corrupt governments and do something about that prior to blaming others. Or they can keep blaming others and remain status quo. Im not starting a diatribe towards Muslims but they need to change their own environment first.


I think you need to stop talking about something of which you have no knowledge. The fact of the matter is that Muslims--even and *especially* the radical extremists--complain more about their own corrupt and oppressive puppet governments than the West. If you study history, you will know that ever since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the West has ensured that the Muslim world be ruled by tyrants. The idea that the Muslim world has "done nothing" to change this matter is patently false, evidenced by the numerous attempted coups that were thwarted by the West or conversely executed by the West. Therefore, the two issues, i.e. the Western intervention and the leaders in the Muslim world, are linked.

Furthermore, the Muslims are not just "blaming others"; rather, we also evaluate our own behavior and think of ways on how to modify it. Almost every other sermon is about this topic. Just don't speak on this issue, since you haven't lived in the Muslim world, nor interacted with us, etc. It's patronizing. 

Look, I understand your viewpoint, and I know you are not a bigot, but you sound a bit patronizing and condescending. It's like a white guy telling blacks on how they need to improve themselves and "stop blaming everyone else for everything." My response to you is that it is not either/or situation. The fact that the Muslims point out the causative agents, i.e. the Western intervention, does not mean that we cannot also improve on ourselves at the same time. 

When I'm on a Non-Muslim forum and people complain about the situation of the Muslims, obviously I am going to point out that there are other factors at play. When I'm amongst my own Muslim people, then I talk about what our own faults are and what we can do to improve them. 

Anyways, forget it.

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## BuffedGuy

Prada: Look bro, I understand where you are coming from and there is a lot of truth in what you said. I just disagree with some of what you said, and I disagreed with your approach. I didn't mean to come across as snippy. 

If I could get a dime for every time a Muslim preacher gave the AIPAC example and how we Muslims should organize like that, I'd be a billionaire. These things are just easier said than done. We can barely afford to renovate our mosques in America, let alone create such a powerful lobby. I don't even think it's a realistic goal.

But again, I understand where you are coming from and I apologize for my snippy-ness. 

Peace be unto you.

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## *RAGE*

I did not read all of this nor do I want to....

*Obama suck, I HATE OBAMA*

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## *RAGE*

> As we all know, when people on our side are fighting oppression they are 'freedom fighters.' When they are a differnt skin color, religion, or political ideology than our own, they are "terrorists."


You have a right to say what you want but remember it goes both ways....I will leave it at that.......

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## Prada

BG, you said that I don't know what Im talking about. I do know what Im talking about. I'm just seeing your thought process. Your opinion, which I respect, doesn't equate to one being correct and the other being incorrect. You are capable of having a pacified debate or discussion? If so I will discuss with you if not then we shall stop right here since its pointless. Yet Im guessing you are open minded and not the reciprocal. I endure some of your accusations and assumptions because I think you sometimes respond out of frustration. I know its not easy to convince non-muslims your POV and that it is not easy contiously defending your POV when you are almost unique on this board. Again this is not a diatribe against Muslims, I actually wish they would be independent, progressive, democratic and free states. 

For some reason Ive read lot about Mideast politics (not Muslims per se) Ive even visited the country that, I believe, you are from as well as the one that your people perform the sacred pilgrimage to. I was very young however.

I want to reiterate that I'm not anti-Muslim, I know the extremist are a minority and are not representative of the majority. I dont dislike the Jews either, I do think they have been unfair in the "dispute" Anyways Im not getting into that because it seems to be a hot issue which I dont feel like indulging myself in. 

IMO, all Im saying is that Iran has to rid itself Ahmadinejad, Saudi Arabia has to eradicate the unfair, double standard, corrupt royal family. I think Pakistan has to stop voting for continuously corrupt leaders in Nawaz Sharif(PML) and Bhutto(PPP). The people of Egypt need to eradicate Hosni Mubarrack. Assad and Qhadafi have to go. Autocratic rule where self interest is in place has to be abolished. Israel doesn't have natural resources so the Arab world has to better them to be in a position of power. Yes you are right the US has many mid east countries as their lap dog. That is all I mean by Muslims first rectifying their situation beforehand. They have a lot of resource and potential to flourish but its to bad their leaders are corrupt and oppress their own people. Imagine the power of unity amongst the Arabs and political clout they would have. Yet I see them siphoning off resources from a finite resource, oil. Once oil is finished then they will return to the pre; Lawrence of Arabia era where they were nomads and lived in an uncivilzed world. BTW: In Saudi,uncivilized nomads and tribes exist until today. In contrast the royal family ride around in bullet proof, customized Mercedes, travel in private jets while their "slaves" hold their shopping bags while they shop till they drop on fifth avenue.  :Smilie:  
For me that is unacceptable.

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## Prada

> If I could get a dime for every time a Muslim preacher gave the AIPAC example and how we Muslims should organize like that, I'd be a billionaire. These things are just easier said than done. We can barely afford to renovate our mosques in America, let alone create such a powerful lobby. I don't even think it's a realistic goal.


That is exactly it man. Nothing gets granted on a silver platter in life. It will take time and generations but it can be done with right leadership and stewardship. What has ~half a century gotten Palestine? Nothing, it will still not get them anything unless they await for the total collapse of the US but even then. Its all about priorities and long term planning. Easier said then done? I acknowledge that but sometimes, Ill quote a Muslim Chechen freedom fighter, "sometimes you sacrifice today for a better tomorrow". He sacrificed his life for a better tomorrow for his children.

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## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *Prada*.

I stand corrected. This what you said here...




> IMO, all Im saying is that Iran has to rid itself Ahmadinejad, Saudi Arabia has to eradicate the unfair, double standard, corrupt royal family. I think Pakistan has to stop voting for continuously corrupt leaders in Nawaz Sharif(PML) and Bhutto(PPP). The people of Egypt need to eradicate Hosni Mubarrack. Assad and Qhadafi have to go. Autocratic rule where self interest is in place has to be abolished. Israel doesn't have natural resources so the Arab world has to better them to be in a position of power. Yes you are right the US has many mid east countries as their lap dog. That is all I mean by Muslims first rectifying their situation beforehand. They have a lot of resource and potential to flourish but its to bad their leaders are corrupt and oppress their own people. Imagine the power of unity amongst the Arabs and political clout they would have. Yet I see them siphoning off resources from a finite resource, oil. Once oil is finished then they will return to the pre; Lawrence of Arabia era where they were nomads and lived in an uncivilzed world. BTW: In Saudi,uncivilized nomads and tribes exist until today. In contrast the royal family ride around in bullet proof, customized Mercedes, travel in private jets while their "slaves" hold their shopping bags while they shop till they drop on fifth avenue.  
> For me that is unacceptable.


...is spot on.

If you look in my "Ask a Muslim" thread, I mentioned almost all of the things you just said. 

And I also agree with you here:




> That is exactly it man. Nothing gets granted on a silver platter in life. It will take time and generations but it can be done with right leadership and stewardship. What has ~half a century gotten Palestine? Nothing, it will still not get them anything unless they await for the total collapse of the US but even then. Its all about priorities and long term planning. Easier said then done? I acknowledge that but sometimes, Ill quote a Muslim Chechen freedom fighter, "sometimes you sacrifice today for a better tomorrow". He sacrificed his life for a better tomorrow for his children.


I misunderstood your previous post and thought you were showing frustration that all this hasn't happened yet. Like you, I believe it will take many generations. All I can say is that there are Muslims working on improving themselves, and God-Willing our condition will improve a few generations down the line. But like you said, it will take a long time, dedication, sacrifice, consistency, and hard-work. It will not happen overnight, but the process must begin now.

I apologize for jumping on you. You have understood the situation spot-on.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

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## Prada

Its ok man. I think peace and equality is the goal for most. Yet there will always be those who want to hold their position of power as long as they can. Many empires rose and all of them eventually fell...as well as their cronies. Its just a question of time and those who were mistreated will take their revenge. This has been documented from a historical perspective.

What is disappointing is that Ive always believed that problems always get resolved by tackling the root. Its better to be humble, patient and wisely plan the future. That requires leadership and a plan. I guess that is what is lacking. Perhaps one day you could peacefully co-exist.

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## BuffedGuy

> Its ok man. I think peace and equality is the goal for most. Yet there will always be those who want to hold their position of power as long as they can. Many empires rose and all of them eventually fell...as well as their cronies. Its just a question of time and those who were mistreated will take their revenge. This has been documented from a historical perspective.
> 
> What is disappointing is that Ive always believed that problems always get resolved by tackling the root. Its better to be humble, patient and wisely plan the future. That requires leadership and a plan. I guess that is what is lacking. Perhaps one day you could peacefully co-exist.


I agree with you. Good post.

The tyrants will fall, each and every one of them. They cling to their power as long as they can, thinking that their empires could last thousands of years or till the end of time. For example, the Saudi Arabian royals think that they will be in power forever, not knowing that their time is running out and soon will history judge them. They could do everything in their power to prevent it (and indeed the Saudi royals are trying!), but their fate is inevitable and sealed. History attests to it. Soon will they all be dethroned--each and every one of them.

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## quarry206

this comment will be off , but at the same on topic...

the other day i watched 'lord of war', and it ends with a little twist, which most probably have seen but i'll shortly explain.. the arms dealer they are chasing the whole movie they catch at the end.. only to let go, because though he is an illegal arms dealer, he supplies the people that fight the people america is fighting. so as he is released he says ' your enemies enemy is your friend'...

for some reason the american people have taken that to heart and support israel.. we are brain washed to think that just because the countries they dislike we have issues with so we should support them.... well this isn't a movie, sometimes when you support a group it turns around to bite you... i mean not like America has ever supported people and governments and then had a fight to the death with them later..**cough**Bin ladan, saddam**cough**

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## Prada

So what do you think about this video?

http://vodpod.com/watch/823031-eric-...ipelline-video

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## BuffedGuy

> So what do you think about this video?
> 
> http://vodpod.com/watch/823031-eric-...ipelline-video


Just watched the whole thing while eating my dinner. I can't speak for the host of the show, but it's a good analysis by the guest Eric Margolis. Margolis showed a depth of understanding of the issues and of the history of Afghanistan that is quite simply lacking in politicians and policy-makers nowadays, perhaps because Margolis has covered the region for so long with an open mind.

What impressed me most about Margolis's analysis was how he mentioned the Communist infiltration of the teaching establishment...that really showed that he knew what he was talking about, as these are the sorts of details that a person *must* know before truly grasping what is going on. Furthermore, he did not show tunnel vision, but instead compared the US invasion of Afghanistan to the Soviet one.

One last point: I think it is difficult to say if it was all over a pipeline. I think that the causative factors were multi-factorial. It seems to me that financial reasons (i.e. a pipeline) were coupled with desires of expanding hegemony. I also think that the neo-conservatives have religious/cultural reasons to invade. I don't believe in the validity of the clash of cultures theory, but I do think that *they* believe in it (and so does the opposite side in the Muslim world), and so it then becomes a reality...a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. If both sides *think* there is a clash of cultures or civilizations, then there will necessarily *be* a clash of cultures or civilizations. Just having that sort of thinking causes it to come to fruition.

Lastly, I think that it will take many generations for Afghanistan to sort itself out, but it can only do that if all foreign intervention ceases. I believe that the US invasion is causing a resurgence of extremism in the region, and so what could have sorted itself out in a few generations (the extremism of the Taliban) will now take a lot longer. When a very conservative ruling party comes to power, the next generation is the one who corrects them and puts them in check. We see this process going on in Iran. But it takes a *long* time, and there is no instant soup like the Westerners want and demand. The Americans took hundreds of years to give equality to blacks, yet they expect the rest of the world to shape up instantaneously. It's just not possible.

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## Prada

Yeah Margolis is a well educated regional expert. He writes for Dawn(Pakistan), Toronto Sun(Canada), Gulf News(UAE) etc.

I agree with the so called fabrication of clash of cultures. I do believe there is a strategic benefit of having a foothold in Afghanistan. For the pipeline, for the Caspian sea as well as how historically all empires used Afghanistan as a gateway to India.The point being that Afghanistan as Iraq is strategically placed for US interests. 

He has lots of input regarding the mideast and south asia. Some others include
-Eric Margolis: Egypt is a corrupt dictatorship that's afraid of Hamas
-Margolis on how to resolve Afghan conflict
-Eric Margolis: Israel has handed the Obama administration a ‘fait accompli’ + Aftermath of attacks + Israel shelling of a U.N. compound

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## Kratos

I've got a question for you Buff, why do Muslims have any claim to Israel?

I've been to Muslim countries and the best answer I got was that controling Israel is a show of power. Overall it is not an important city to the religion. When the Muslims did have control for 20 years (prior to losing the 1967 war), they never treated Jerusalem as either a holy city or as a capitol. There are some important mosques, but we aren't talking about an equivilent to Mecca or Medina.

Maybe you can tell me why Muslims have a claim to this land. Aside from the fact some were displaced to create the state of Israel. Many people have been displaced in history for many reasons.

There is no desire for peace, it's a show of force to kick the Jewish religion out of the Middle East.

I will concede the importance of Al-Aqsa, but can't you just let Israel go? From what I understan Mohammad never even went there but rather flew there in his sleep.

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## Kratos

Here are some examples of how Muslims have treated Jewish holy places: 

Joseph's tomb, near Nablus, was repeatedly attacked, ransacked, then burned and totally destroyed, and a mosque built on the site. 


Palestinians sacked and burned the Shalom al-Yisrael Synagogue in Jericho. 


Palestinian snipers have repeatedly attacked Rachel's Tomb between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. 
The Muslim Waqf, zealous in defense against threats to mosques whether real or imagined, has treated Jewish antiquities with consistent disregard. 

In 1996-97 the Waqf dug up the southeastern end of the Temple Mount and converted the Solomon's Stables and the Eastern Hulda Gate passageway, two ancient underground structures dating from the Second Temple, into a large mosque. Hundreds of truckloads of earth containing archaeological artifacts were removed and thrown into a garbage dump. Stones with inscriptions and decorations were recut, and their markings destroyed. Much was lost, but some items rescued from the dump are believed to come from King Solomon's Temple. 


In 1997 the Western Hulda Gate passageway, another underground structure from the time of the Second Temple, was also converted into a mosque. 


In 1999 Islamic clerics did further work on the mosque and dumped thousands of tons of rubble into the Kidron Valley. Israeli archaeologists had found this material to contain artifacts from as early as the First Temple. (Even if an artifact can be salvaged from displaced rubble, much valuable information is lost, such as datable strata and other inferences that can be drawn from the article's original position.) 


In 2001, during work to extend further the mosque built on Solomon's Stables, bulldozers destroyed an ancient arched structure from the Temple Mount's eastern wall. 


Islamic authorities also dug up 7,000 square yards of the Temple Mount's ancient surface, paved it, and declared it an open mosque. There was no archaeological supervision, and the director of the Israeli Antiquities Authority called it an "archaeological crime." 


After barring the Israeli Antiquities Authority from the Temple Mount in 2000, the Waqf removed 13,000 tons of rubble from the Temple Mount, containing artifacts from the First and Second Temple periods, and deposited it in city garbage dumps.

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## Kratos

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible...heologists.htm

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## Kratos

durring Jordan rule from 1948 to 1967

Only limited numbers of Christians were grudgingly permitted to briefly visit the Old City and Bethlehem at Christmas and Easter.

In 1955 and 1964, Jordan passed laws imposing strict government control on Christian schools, including restrictions on the opening of new schools, state control over school finances and appointment of teachers and the requirements that the Koran be taught.

Jordan desecrated Jewish holy places
King Hussein permitted the construction of a road to the Intercontinental Hotel across the Mount of Olives cemetery. Hundreds of Jewish graves were destroyed by a highway that could have easily been built elsewhere. The gravestones, honoring the memory of rabbis and sages, were used by the engineer corps of the Jordanian Arab Legion as pavement and latrines in army camps (inscriptions on the stones were still visible when Israel liberated the city).

The ancient Jewish Quarter of the Old City was ravaged, 58 Jerusalem synagogues — some centuries old — were destroyed or ruined, others were turned into stables and chicken coops. Slum dwellings were built abutting the Western Wall.

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## Kratos

There was no reciprocal appreciation for other religions under Jordan rule. Muslims have a long history of destorying anything Jewish or Christian. The people who were displaced, were displaced 60 years ago...lets move on.

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## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *Kratos*.

Excellent question, and thank you for asking.




> I've got a question for you Buff, why do Muslims have any claim to Israel?


The land--on which the illegal colonial state of Israel exists upon--belongs to the Palestinians, who have lived on that land for hundreds of years. Therefore, according to international law and the doctrine of self-determination and popular sovereignty, the land belongs to the Palestinian people.




> Overall it is not an important city to the religion.


This is not true. There are only three holy cities in Islam: Mecca, Madeenah, and Jerusalem. Indeed, the early Muslims faced Jerusalem to pray--not Mecca. The city--and the land surrounding it--is very important to Muslims from a religious perspective. In verse 5:21, the Quran itself calls Jerusalem--and that which surrounds it--as "the holy land." 

I have given a more detailed response here:

http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=418




> When the Muslims did have control for 20 years (prior to losing the 1967 war), they never treated Jerusalem as either a holy city or as a capitol.


Jerusalem has been occupied since the creation of the colonial Zionist state in 1947-1948.

However, before the creation of the colonial state (both the Zionist and British occupation), the Muslims ruled Jerusalem not for 20 years, but *hundreds* of years. 

Here is a brief history I wrote up about the history of Jerusalem:




> The fact that we believe that Jerusalem is holy does not mean that we are justified in conquering it and dispossessing the inhabitants of it. Before Islam came on the scene, Jerusalem was ruled by the great Christian empire--the Byzantine Empire. They expelled Jews and banned them from entering Jerusalem:
> The Byzantine Emperor Constantine, however, rebuilt Jerusalem as a Christian center of worship, building the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 335. *Jews were still banned from the city*, except during a brief period of Persian rule from 614-629 CE.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...CE_-_638_CE.29
> And from a Zionist website:
> 
> Byzantines
> 
> Constantine was the founder of the Byzantine empire and a devout Christian. He tried to make Jerusalem into a center of Christian worship by erecting many churches there, including the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and designating various areas as Christian holy sites....In 614 the Persians actually managed to capture Jerusalem...but this victory was short-lived and the Byzantines returned in 629 *to again expel the Jews*. They ruled Jerusalem until their defeat at the hands of the Muslim Arab caliph, Omar, in 638. 
> ...


What is interesting is that the Muslims are the ones who allowed Jews to return to Palestine (since the Byzantines had expelled them time and time again)...yet, each time the Muslims ruled Jerusalem/Palestine, they welcomed Jews back.




> they never treated Jerusalem as either a holy city or as a capitol.


Throughout the hundreds of years of Islamic rule, Jerusalem has always been considered holy by the Muslims. When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem, the famous Saladin united the entire Muslim world to liberate it, such was the importance of the land.





> I've been to Muslim countries and the best answer I got was that controling Israel is a show of power.


It is usurped land. 




> There are some important mosques, but we aren't talking about an equivilent to Mecca or Medina.


There are three special mosques in Islam: one of them is located in Mecca, one in Madeenah, and one in Jerusalem. Prophet Muhammad [s] said:
“No (religious) journey should be made except to three mosques: al-Masjid al-Haraam [the Kaba'ah in Mecca], Masjid al-Rasool [the Prophet's Mosque in Madeenah] *and Masjid al-Aqsa [in Jerusalem].”* (Sahih al-Bukhari)



> Maybe you can tell me why Muslims have a claim to this land.


It should be understood that the religious importance of Jerusalem is not a legitimate grounds to claim a land. International law does not grant people the right to land simply based on religious belief. If some religion taught that their god promised the entire world it would not justify them in invading and occupying the entire globe.

The reason Palestinians have a right to the land is that they are the native inhabitants of said land. It is their land and Israel stole it, just like the Europeans stole Native American land. The only difference is that the Native Americans have been completely extinguished, whereas the Palestinians have not been. So the Palestinian people will fight tooth and nail for their land, just like the Native Americans fought the good fight to protect their ancestral land.




> Aside from the fact some were displaced to create the state of Israel.


There is no other justification that is needed, according to international law.




> There is no desire for peace, it's a show of force to kick the Jewish religion out of the Middle East.


If this was truly the case, then why is it that *whenever* Muslims ruled Jerusalem and Palestine, they would invite all the expelled Jews to come back? 




> I will concede the importance of Al-Aqsa, but can't you just let Israel go?


Imagine if--during the Cold War--the Soviet Union occupied the entire state of Florida. Do you think Americans would just "let it go"? They would fight tooth and nail for it back. It's not just the land; after all, Florida is a small land mass compared to the rest of America. However, Florida would then become a Soviet base right next door to America. As such, it has geo-political importance. Likewise, Israel is located in the heart of the Middle East, and as such, it has great geo-political importance. It's not like Israel is some peaceful neighbor. Rather, they are belligerent aggressors who continually invade and occupy neighbors. Israel has also nukes and refuses to rule out their use. 

It took Saladin 200 years to reclaim Jerusalem from the Crusaders. Israel is some 60 years old. The Muslims trust in God, and know that the occupiers will be kicked out, just like the Crusaders were thrown out aforetime.




> From what I understan Mohammad never even went there but rather flew there in his sleep.


We Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad [s] visited Jerusalem in what is known as the Night Journey; this was in reality, and not in his sleep. However, what should be kept in mind is that the Muslims revere many prophets, not just Prophet Muhammad [s]. We revere Prophet Moses [as], who traveled with his tribe to the land of Palestine. We revere Prophet Jesus [as] who was born in the holy land. And there were many other prophets who were sent to that blessed land. Therefore, even if Prophet Muhammad [s] never visited Jerusalem, it would not negate the importance of the city.

Hope that helps.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## Kratos

5:21
O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers.

Israil is never mentioned in the Koran to my knowledge. From what I understand Mohammad is quoting Moses? Surely it is not refering to Muslims at any rate.

----------


## Kratos

No it doesn't really help at all...you totally negated the facts I broght up about Muslim disrespect for Christianity and Jews.

----------


## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, Kratos.

With regards to Christians under Jordanian rule, you should know that Jordan follows the confessional system of governance, which gives tons of rights to the Christian church.

Here is what Selim Sayegh, the Auxiliary Bishop of Jordan, says about the overall condition of Christians:
The total population of Jordan today is over 5 million. Christians are over 200,000 (Two hundred thousand). A good collaboration exists between Christians and Moslems in the daily life, in all the fields: education, business, politics, soldiers in the army etc… Relations with the authorities, civil or religious, are good.

...We have freedom of worship, of building our churches, of having our education system in coordination of course with the Ministry of
Education...The Constitution declares the equality of all citizens without discrimination because of race of religion...

The government tries to make efforts in the direction of a complete equality: for example, the Christian presence in the political
life and responsibilities. Among the deputies there is a fixed number for Christians. Among the ministers one or two Christians are appointed.

Among the senators directly appointed by the king, there is as well an important Christian presence.

*...Churches, equally tot the Mosques, are exempted from many kind of taxes*

http://storage.paxchristi.net/ME16E06.pdf
This is not just some random dude saying it. He is the authority figure of the Christians there.

If you study history, you will know that the Orthodox (and Coptic) Christians--among other Christian groups--have had a pretty good relationship with Islam. The Ottoman Empire--that existed for hundreds of years--allowed the Church great control, giving it governmental power. 

When Saladin liberated Jerusalem, did you know that the Orthodox Church actually contacted Saladin asking him to restore their churches to them and allow the Orthodox Church to rule them? (The Latin Christians had taken away the churches from the Orthodox Christians.) Saladin obliged.

So I think it is a bit unfair to paint the picture which you are painting, which is mostly based on bigoted ideas that people have. Academic scholars agree that the Islamic rule over Jews and Christians was very tolerant, especially in comparison to the Christian rule of those times, as well as the Jewish one during the Biblical times.




> In 1955 and 1964, Jordan passed laws imposing strict government control on Christian schools, including restrictions on the opening of new schools, state control over school finances and appointment of teachers and the requirements that the Koran be taught.


This is what the Auxiliary Bishop of Jordan has to say about this:
*Religious education*

The [Jordanian] law says: religious education in all schools is obligatory, with three periods per week. In the government schools, Moslem religious education is obligatory for Moslem students, the state religion being Islam, the state must take care of Islamic education. For Christian students, it is the Church who is responsible and has the duty to afford Christian religious education to its faithful. In private schools, Christian or lay, religious education is obligatory for all students, *each in his own religion*, three periods per week.

A difficulty exists in this field: Moslem religious education is obligatory and is an obligatory matter for Moslems in official examinations, while Christian religious education is not. There were efforts and even *an order that emanated from the Palace to give Christian religious education to Christian students in government schools.* It did not work, for various complicated reasons or pretexts: the number of Christian students is too low; there is no common Christian education book… We are still following this question to find the best ways in order to procure to our Christian students their religious education in their own state schools

http://storage.paxchristi.net/ME16E06.pdf
So you are actually misrepresenting the issue. The law simply says that religious education is obligatory, and that a student can study his OWN religion. Yes, the Quran is obligatory for Muslim students. The government even issued a law that said that Christian religious education in STATE SCHOOLS was obligatory. (You did not mention this.) Again, you don't realize that Muslims have historically been great fans of the confessional system, which allows great power to the Christian church, allowing them to rule their own adherents as they see fit.

During Ottoman rule for example, the Christians were allowed their own Christian courts, their own Christian judges, etc. 




> Only limited numbers of Christians were grudgingly permitted to briefly visit the Old City and Bethlehem at Christmas and Easter.


Only a limited number of Muslims are allowed to visit Mecca. 

More to come, God-Willing...

----------


## Kratos

I've visited Christian-Byzantine churches in Istanbul. Kinda cool how some of the most important ones have minurettes now.

----------


## Kratos

Muslims welcome Jews as long as they convert to Islam.
This is what your own profit does when they can't be converted...Muslims look at the exsistance of the Jewish relision as a slap in the face to allah.

According to “Sirat-a-Rasul” (page 464) by Ibn Ishaq the story goes as follows:

Gist: After the Battle of the Ditch, when the coalition force of Quraish left the battle field, Prophet Muhammad attacked the last of the large Jewish tribes of Medina, the Banu Qurayza. After a 25 days siege, they (Jews) surrender unconditionally. In the end, all 600-700 males of the tribe were killed and the women and children sold into slavery.

----------


## Kratos

A very good friend of mine is a Christian from Syria
I know how she was treated and why she is here now

Under Jordanian law, conversion from Islam to Christianity is not allowed in Muslim conservative Jordan and foreign missionary groups are banned from seeking converts.

One thing is for sure, Jews are not accepted in Jordan.

----------


## Kratos

> Only a limited number of Muslims are allowed to visit Mecca. 
> 
> More to come, God-Willing...


How is that anyone's fault but the Saudi's? If you aren't Muslim you can't even go there at all.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> No it doesn't really help at all...you totally negated the facts I broght up about Muslim disrespect for Christianity and Jews.


*Kratos*, I am afraid that you do not understand the issues at all. Arab Christians are generally heavily pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist. This is something that is not really talked about in the Western media.

The Muslims did not place restrictions on Christian church attendance. Rather, Islamic rule in general (keep in mind that it was hundreds of years) gave them profound religious freedom. It is Israel which prevented them from their religious holy sites, and this because Zionists believe that it is *Jewish* holy land--and therefore the Christians have no reason to be there.

To prove this point to you, I will post an article from a Zionist website (which is well-respected amongst Zionists)...I will bold the important parts:

Introduction

*Palestinian Christians have long been among Israel’s most vocal critics, using every opportunity to portray the Jewish state as a malevolent force in world politics...*  Because of their proximity to Christianity’s most holy sites, they have ready access to visiting Christian leaders in the West who are all too willing to accept a distorted and incomplete narrative about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

...According to the narrative offered by these Christian leaders, peace is solely contingent on Israeli concessions and efforts to reform the Jewish state. And while these leaders condemn Israel, they remain silent about the Arab world’s refusal to accept Israel’s right to exist...

When challenged with instances in which Israeli withdrawals and peace offers have been met with increased violence, these spokespersons portray the peace offers and withdrawals as insubstantial, dishonest attempts to fool people into thinking the Israelis want peace. For example, *they have falsely described the Camp David peace plan put forth in 2000 as carving the West Bank into "bantustans," and dismissed the Gaza withdrawal as meaningless because it was a "unilateral" action and not the result of negotiations.*

When violence flares up between Israel and its adversaries, these Christians use their access to churches in the West to broadcast such a distorted narrative about the causes and effects of violence in the Middle East.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181NOTE: Keep in mind that the above was written by a Zionist. It shows the disdain the Zionists have for Christians in Palestine/Israel.

The Christians in Palestine want PALESTINIAN unity against Israeli aggression. Read on:
 Aside from urging internal Palestinian unity, the key points of the document [endorsed by Christians in Palestine] call for:

* establishment of a Palestinian state in Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip;
* securing the so-called "right of return"; 

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181
In fact, the Middle East Council of Churches BLASTED Israel and supports Palestinians:
Middle East Council of Churches

In a brief one-sided statement issued on June 29, the Middle East Council of Churches, made up of Christian churches located in Muslim-majority countries throughout the Middle East, condemns Israel’s military action in Gaza

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181
Here is the conclusion of the Zionist writer:

Discussion

*Sadly, this is not the first time Christians in the Middle East have worked to legitimize falsehoods that encourage hostility against Jews.*

...*Christians in the United States who rely on Arab and Palestinian Christians for information about the Arab-Israeli conflict have an obligation to scrutinize the information offered to them.* 

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1181
The point is that while most Christians in America are on the side of Israel, Israel is persecuting the Christians in Palestine/Israel. The Christians in Palestine/Israel HATE Israel and have ALWAYS been pro-Palestinian. Unfortunately, this is lost upon Western audiences, because they are highly ignorant.

So Kratos, you really don't understand the issues to begin with. The Muslim rule of this area has historically been very tolerant, to both Jews *and* Christians. The fact is that the Jews had their Golden Age under Islamic rule. They used to flee from Europe to Muslim lands, which gave them refuge from persecution.

As for Christians, Muslims gave them freedom of religion and allowed their churches IMMENSE rule to govern. In fact, churches in the Ottoman Empire wielded way more power than the churches in America do today (due to separation of church and state).

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## Kratos

http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/ira.../22/42852.html

----------


## Kratos

> Peace be unto you, *Kratos*.
> 
> 
> We Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad [s] visited Jerusalem in what is known as the Night Journey; this was in reality, and not in his sleep. 
> .


wow, it's real tough to complete an important pilgrimage when you can just say you did it in your sleep. Isn't the whole point being that it's hard to do?

----------


## D7M

> As for Christians, Muslims gave them freedom of religion and allowed their churches IMMENSE rule to govern. In fact, churches in the Ottoman Empire wielded way more power than the churches in America do today (due to separation of church and state).


this is referring to where? and what time period?

----------


## BuffedGuy

Kratos, I am afraid that now you are just talking nonsense.




> Muslims welcome Jews as long as they convert to Islam.


According to Islamic Law, Jews are honored as People of the Book. It is forbidden to force them to convert to Islam. They are allowed to live in peace and security, and in fact--according to Islamic Law--the Muslims must defend its Jewish citizens to the death. 




> This is what your own profit does when they can't be converted...Muslims look at the exsistance of the Jewish relision as a slap in the face to allah.


And yet, Prophet Muhammad [s] himself was allied with Jews.  :Smilie:  He signed a pact with them, whereby the Muslims promised to defend the Jews to the death, should they ever be attacked by anyone.

Like I detailed in my previous post above, the Muslims always welcomed Jews back to their homes whenever Muslims ruled. (The Byzantines would always expel the Jews, so when Muslims defeated the Byzantines, the Muslims would issue a call welcoming the Jews back.) The reason is that this is all a part of Islamic law.




> According to Sirat-a-Rasul (page 464) by Ibn Ishaq the story goes as follows:
> 
> Gist: After the Battle of the Ditch, when the coalition force of Quraish left the battle field, Prophet Muhammad attacked the last of the large Jewish tribes of Medina, the Banu Qurayza. After a 25 days siege, they (Jews) surrender unconditionally. In the end, all 600-700 males of the tribe were killed and the women and children sold into slavery.


The Bani Qurayza lived in Madeenah, along with the Muslims. They had a pact, whereby both sides agreed to defend the other in case of attack by a third party. The Confederate Forces attacked Madeenah, and the inhabitants of Madeenah were commanded to defend the city. The Bani Qurayza did NOT respond, and thereby they reneged on their pact.

But worse than that, the Bani Qurayza committed high treason by promising to help the Confederate Forces attack the Muslims from within the city. In other words, they collaborated with the enemy, promising to surround the Muslims. It was for this that the adult men who committed high treason were put to the sword. However, it should be noted that Prophet Muhammad [s] asked the Jews if they wanted to be punished according to Jewish or Islamic law. The Banu Qurayza chose Jewish Law. They (the Jews) appointed a man by the name of Sa'ad to issue their judgment, according to Jewish Law, and according to the judge appointed by the Jews--not Prophet Muhammad [s].

As is well-known, the Jewish Law dictates that in case of treason, the men are to be killed, and the women and children sold into slavery. 

The key point here is that this was JEWISH LAW. Had they chosen Islamic law, they would have received lenience, since Islamic law encourages forgiveness of prisoners, as evidenced by Saladin, who had a very merciful pronouncement when he liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders.

Please stop twisting things, God-Willing.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## Kratos

> *Kratos*, I am afraid that you do not understand the issues at all. because they are highly ignorant.
> 
> So Kratos, you really don't understand the issues to begin with. 
> .


I know, it's so complex only you can figure it out

When there is no real history, there is a void, and myths flourish. Although tolerance existed, it was counterbalanced by a system of oppression that led to the open extermination of Christian populations and the disappearance of the Eastern Christian culture. Tolerance was given to Jews and Christians only on the condition that they would accept and submit to a system of persecution and total inferiority.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> wow, it's real tough to complete an important pilgrimage when you can just say you did it in your sleep. Isn't the whole point being that it's hard to do?


I don't know what you are talking about. We don't believe that Prophet Muhammad [s] did it in his sleep. We believe he was awake, and that it was a miracle of God. It is considered a miracle.

You can mock it all you want, but I don't see how it is any less believable than Prophet Jesus [as] walking on water. I would suggest religious tolerance, and mutual respect, God-Willing.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> I know, it's so complex only you can figure it out
> 
> When there is no real history, there is a void, and myths flourish. Although tolerance existed, it was counterbalanced by a system of oppression that led to the open extermination of Christian populations and the disappearance of the Eastern Christian culture. Tolerance was given to Jews and Christians only on the condition that they would accept and submit to a system of persecution and total inferiority.


Absolutely false. 

Did you know that Muslims ruled Egypt and Palestine/Jordan/Syria for hundreds of years, and that the Muslims never were a majority in said countries for 500-700 years? In other words, it took 500 and 700 years (respectively) under Islamic rule for Muslims to form a majority (50%) in said areas. Had Muslims wanted to, they could have put everyone to the sword and mass-converted everyone. That is what the Christians did in Spain. You will notice that there was no Muslim spared after that. It was a quick mass conversion.

On the other hand, the Christians remained a MAJORITY in Eygpt/Syria/Jordan/Palestine for 500-700 years. It was only through a very slow process that conversion took place. It was not at all by the sword.

----------


## NightWolf

Infact you are very correct Kratos,
I dont know about jews, but the way muslims treat
christians (not counting lebanon) in their muslim
countrys are HORRIBLE.

Offcourse buff will never confess to this
but what does he know? hes never been to
any of these countrys.

I sit and talk with arab friends everyday 
who came from these countrys and the storys
they tell on how they and their familes were
treated just because they was christians
and not muslims makes my blood boil.

I went to thailand with my brother
and my girl was supposed to joins us
after 2 weeks. Her airplane landed
on a muslim country (i think it was the emirats?)
to refuel and such, she was supposed to be there
for some hours so she decided to go outside
some gates and immideatly a couple of arab
guards stopped her and told her that she
must cover her head of she wanted to go outside!

Offcourse my girl did not want to cover her head
and stayed inside. Can you IMAGINE the revolt
there whould be if the swedish airport guards
told some muslim women to take off her head
scarf??

Another friend of mine also told me he went to
one of these countrys, he had a very big christian
cross hanging outside his shirt, he was stopped and told
to remove the cross. offcoruse he was suprissed by this
and asked what? the guard told him to remove the cross
and he is very welcome to thier country, otherwise
he was to go back home with the first plane.


Oh and *buff*, im missing you in the "Obamas kenya ghost"
thread, were muslims are commiting Genocide on christians
hording up people in church (mostly women and children)
and then setting the church on fire to burn them alive
those who try to escape gets hacked to to bits by machetes.

Massmurder everyday, why? Because they are not muslims.
So were is your moral BS talk in that thread huh buff??

----------


## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.

Welcome to the conversation.




> Infact you are very correct Kratos,
> I dont know about jews, but the way muslims treat
> christians (not counting lebanon) in their muslim
> countrys are HORRIBLE.


I am talking about *historically*, not today.  :Smilie:  I acknowledge that persecution of Jews and Christians in Muslim lands has risen in the Muslim world today, and it is something that I believe we Muslims need to work on, and we are. My favorite Islamic priest does a lot of work to help ameliorate this situation. 

The persecution of Jews and Christians in Islamic lands has ramped up due to political events, which has created hatred in the hearts. It is wrong, and unjustifiable. 

Nonetheless, one cannot be one-sided on this issue. Muslims are abused under Jewish and Western rule, even today. I don't need to talk much about Israel since we all know what i am talking about. As for Western rule, the way Muslims are treated in Gitmo and other prisons speaks for itself. 

The fact is that the people of all faiths need to come together and improve the way we treat each other. I do not at all deny the fault of Muslims. I believe that we really need to work hard to push for the rights of Non-Muslims living in Muslim lands, something which is in our religion, and something which historically Muslims upheld.




> Offcourse buff will never confess to this
> but what does he know? hes never been to
> any of these countrys.


I do "confess" to it, and I *have* been to those countries.




> I sit and talk with arab friends everyday 
> who came from these countrys and the storys
> they tell on how they and their familes were
> treated just because they was christians
> and not muslims makes my blood boil.


It makes my blood boil too, just like my blood boils when I hear how Muslims are treated in American prisons, how Qurans are treated by American soldiers, how American soldiers kill Muslims the world over, etc.




> I went to thailand with my brother
> and my girl was supposed to joins us
> after 2 weeks. Her airplane landed
> on a muslim country (i think it was the emirats?)
> to refuel and such, she was supposed to be there
> for some hours so she decided to go outside
> some gates and immideatly a couple of arab
> guards stopped her and told her that she
> must cover her head of she wanted to go outside!


This is a legitimate gripe you have. In fact, according to Islamic Law, Non-Muslims are not at all mandated to wear the headscarf. This would be imposing Islam on them, and there is no compulsion in religion. This is a matter which I am very outspoken about. In fact, the Second Caliph of Islam actively discouraged Non-Muslim women from wearing the headscarf, because he wanted it to be limited to Muslim women. (He didn't forbid it, but he discouraged it.) 

However, you have to understand that there is a huge backlash in Islamic lands nowadays, a reaction to colonialism and neo-colonialism. The Muslim world felt that the west was trying to impose its ways on them, and therefore there was this reactionary backlash. It's wrong, and I believe it must be righted. Nonetheless, it is wrong to demonize Muslims as a whole because of this.




> Offcourse my girl did not want to cover her head
> and stayed inside. Can you IMAGINE the revolt
> there whould be if the swedish airport guards
> told some muslim women to take off her head
> scarf??


In fact, many European countries have banned the headscarf in schools.




> Another friend of mine also told me he went to
> one of these countrys, he had a very big christian
> cross hanging outside his shirt, he was stopped and told
> to remove the cross. offcoruse he was suprissed by this
> and asked what? the guard told him to remove the cross
> and he is very welcome to thier country, otherwise
> he was to go back home with the first plane.


One guard. Wow. So many Americans have called me a "sand-n**ger." So what?




> Oh and *buff*, im missing you in the "Obamas kenya ghost"
> thread, were muslims are commiting Genocide on christians
> hording up people in church (mostly women and children)
> and then setting the church on fire to burn them alive
> those who try to escape gets hacked to to bits by machetes.
> 
> Massmurder everyday, why? Because they are not muslims.
> So were is your moral BS talk in that thread huh buff??


I did not visit your thread. I will now that you asked. 

More to come, God-Willing...

----------


## Kratos

Buff don't tell me the Ottomans were anything but opressive
The bottom line is the empire was too big to convert everyone to Muslim quickly.
Their answer was a set of rules called the kunun which provided laws dictating
Muslim/non-Muslim interactions.
Under the Ottomans, religions were free to practice their beliefs so long as they
acknowledged Muslim superiority and Islamic law/religious tax. Dhimmis were
legally sanctioned non-Muslim religions and were subject to the jiza tax.

"Fight those who do not believe...among those who have been given the Book, until they pay the jizya." (The Koran). Isn't that what you're doing all the time? Although you lack the athority to make me pay any tax.

----------


## BuffedGuy

I will now post a very unbiased source that confirms how Muslims treated Jews historically. Again, this is not about today (since anti-Semitism has risen due to Israeli actions). This is _historically_ I am talking about. I will cite the words of Rabbi Ted Falcon in "Judaism for Dummies". Those of you who know the "For Dummies" series know that it is a very neutral source. Keep in mind that Senator Joseph Lieberman praised this book: 
"A concise and upbeat primer on the Jewish faith, Jewish history, and what it means to be a Jew." 

(Senator Liberman's review of "Judaism for Dummies"Ok, this is what Rabbi Falcon says of Jews under Islamic rule:
In general, Jews tended to be better off in Islamic lands than Christian lands during the Middle Ages. Jews and Christians were both considered "Peoples of the Book"--worshiping the same God as Muslims and using holy scriptures--and were therefore protected under Islamic law. The Jewish focus on scholarship gained them admiration, and the Jews, who quickly learned to speak Arabic, were allowed to be a part of the robust intellectual life of the Islamic Empire...to the Jews, Islamic rule was actually a relief from the humiliating treatment they had gotten from the Christians...

Granted, not all Islamic leaders were the same. *Whilst most of them were tolerant* and ensured the security of life and property, every now and again there were massive forced conversions to Islam, property confiscation, and so on. However, as a whole, these persecutions were shorter in duration and less ferocious than had occurred, and were later to occur, in Christian lands.

(Judaism for Dummies, by Rabbi Ted Falcon, p.162)

----------


## Kratos

> Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.
> 
> 
> In fact, many European countries have banned the headscarf in schools.
> 
> 
> ...



Turkey has as well and that's a Muslim country. It's a slipery slope to fundamentalism is what it comes down to. Next thing you know you're throwing rocks at women who don't cover up is what the MUSLIMS in Turkey have decided.

----------


## D7M

> Nonetheless, one cannot be one-sided on this issue. Muslims are abused under Jewish and Western rule, even today...As for Western rule, the way Muslims are treated in Gitmo and other prisons speaks for itself.


poor example. 

they were not detained in Gitmo and other prisons because of their religious beliefs, but because they were suspected terrorists. 

true, they were persecuted religiously there...but it's doesn't equate to saying that Muslims are persecuted under Western rule. 

and you still never answered my question above.

----------


## Kratos

I think you should go visit some of these counties Buff. Islam has been so bastardized it doesn't even resemble what I'm guessing you practice. There is nothing but hate for other religions and cultures. Only in Istanbul will you find the type of middle ground that you think exsits. I respect your passion, but you should really go see what you're fighting for.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Buff don't tell me the Ottomans were anything but opressive


Have you ever studied history in a good university? Yes or no? I am sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about at all. Academia generally agrees that Ottoman rule was generally very tolerant. Here is what one historian writes:
Ottoman rule was tolerant of the 'Other's' ethnicity and religion--tolerance became both a religious concept and part of political practice. Istanbul's cosmopolitan human make-up testified to the pluralistic nature of the Empire as a whole. By 1893, only half of its population was Muslim, an indication of how welcoming the city was to other groups, including a large Jewish community made up of refugees from the Spanish Inquisition who had been welcomed to Istanbul at the beginning of the sixteenth century by Sultan Bayzeid II...

This attachment to a more multicultural past tells us how much the image of the Middle East has changed in the last hundred years. The current perception of the Middle East, common in the West, is far removed from the historical reality, as we have just outlined.

source: The Modern Middle East, by Ilan Pappe, p. 16

http://books.google.com/books?id=XI_...esult#PPA15,M1



> The bottom line is the empire was too big to convert everyone to Muslim quickly.


Absurd. Explain why Jews were welcomed back into Muslim lands then?




> Their answer was a set of rules called the kunun which provided laws dictating


lol, the word "kunoon" means "rules" or "laws".  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Under the Ottomans, religions were free to practice their beliefs so long as they
> acknowledged Muslim superiority and Islamic law/religious tax. Dhimmis were
> legally sanctioned non-Muslim religions and were subject to the jiza tax.
> 
> "Fight those who do not believe...among those who have been given the Book, until they pay the jizya." (The Koran). Isn't that what you're doing all the time? Although you lack the athority to make me pay any tax.


Mann, you are all over the place now. As for the verse you took horribly out of context, I've already explained that thoroughly in my Ask a Muslim thread. Muslims are permitted only to fight those who fight us. In other words, we cannot be the aggressors. We can only be the defenders. 

As for the _Jizyah_, this was a light tax in order to support the state military, in lieu of military service (since Non-Muslims did not serve in the military). It was "protection money": Muslims promised to defend the Non-Muslims to the death, in exchange for a tax that would go to support the upkeep of said military. The Muslims were instructed to pay the _Zakat_, which is a much heavier tax than the _Jizyah_. The Non-Muslims were to pay the _Jizyah_, which was lighter. I will write more on this topic shortly. You have really drained me. I am going to go study and be back later, God-Willing.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Turkey has as well and that's a Muslim country. It's a slipery slope to fundamentalism is what it comes down to. Next thing you know you're throwing rocks at women who don't cover up is what the MUSLIMS in Turkey have decided.


Really silly what you just said. Turkey is a fervently secularist country, ever since Ataturk came to power. In Turkey, the religious Muslims are heavily persecuted, and you are damn right that I am going to speak out against that. 

Turkey is only a Muslim country insofar as the Soviet Union was a Christian one. 

Anyways, the ban on the headscarf in Turkey has been lifted. In any case, persecution of religious Muslims in Turkey continues. I will post an Amnesty International report on this shortly. But of course that doesn't matter to America, since Turkey is a strategic ally in the region.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> I think you should go visit some of these counties Buff. Islam has been so bastardized it doesn't even resemble what I'm guessing you practice. There is nothing but hate for other religions and cultures. Only in Istanbul will you find the type of middle ground that you think exsits. I respect your passion, but you should really go see what you're fighting for.


Once again, you do not understand my views or the issues at hand. I acknowledge that the Muslim world is in a very bad position nowadays. I acknowledge that Non-Muslims are not being afforded their due rights. Read the excerpt from The Modern Middle East that I posted. Today is much different than when Muslims ruled themselves before colonialism and neo-colonialism. _Historically_, Muslims were very tolerant. 

You do not understand the issues. You do not know that in Muslim lands nowadays, _religious_ Muslims are heavily persecuted. You do not get the fact that we Muslims hate the leaders put over our heads and the borders imposed upon us by the colonialists that left our lands recently. We need to shake them off, and go back to how things were before the colonial enterprise in our lands.

----------


## Kratos

> Really silly what you just said. Turkey is a fervently secularist country, ever since Ataturk came to power. In Turkey, the religious Muslims are heavily persecuted, and you are damn right that I am going to speak out against that. 
> 
> Turkey is only a Muslim country insofar as the Soviet Union was a Christian one. 
> 
> Anyways, the ban on the headscarf in Turkey has been lifted. In any case, persecution of religious Muslims in Turkey continues. I will post an Amnesty International report on this shortly. But of course that doesn't matter to America, since Turkey is a strategic ally in the region.


98% of the people in Turkey are Muslim
what do you classify as religous Muslims?
What are you even talking about?

----------


## BuffedGuy

> poor example. 
> 
> they were not detained in Gitmo and other prisons because of their religious beliefs, but because they were suspected terrorists.


They rounded up innocent people in Afghanistan, including random taxi cab drivers and the like. 

In any case, the West has nothing to boast about in this regard. America has killed many hundreds of thousands of Muslims. That to me is persecution.




> true, they were persecuted religiously there...but it's doesn't equate to saying that Muslims are persecuted under Western rule.


Is not Iraq and Afghanistan under Western rule?




> and you still never answered my question above.


Which is what? I am working rapid-fire here.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> 98% of the people in Turkey are Muslim
> what do you classify as religous Muslims?
> What are you even talking about?


Since the rise of Ataturk in the early 1900s, Turkey has been ruled by fervent non-religious non-practicing *secularists*. They are Muslim only ethnically, not religiously. In other words, the same way that some Jews are atheists but still call themselves Jewish atheists. 

In any case, things are changing in Turkey, and Muslim parties have been becoming more popular, but the secular atheist army keeps a check on them and periodically crushes them.

Once again, you don't understand the issues.

----------


## BuffedGuy

Alright guys, I'm off for now...gotta study!! I'm real behind now.

----------


## NightWolf

> Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.
> 
> Welcome to the conversation.
> 
> As for Western rule, the way Muslims are treated in Gitmo and other prisons speaks for itself.


*Sure the prisoners at gitmo are treated with disrespect
and such, but remember its still a PRISON, and not just
any prison, its a place were the US puts people that
they consider a threat to their country, so i think its
unfair to compare my point with gitmo, rather come see
how much rights muslims have here in sweden.*






> It makes my blood boil too, just like my blood boils when I hear how Muslims are treated in American prisons, how Qurans are treated by American soldiers, how American soldiers kill Muslims the world over, etc.


*Again you are comparing a maximum prison
to a society. What im talking about is how
they (christians) are treated in a muslim
society. And as for the american soldiers
you have to remember, they do not kill
only muslims, they have been to war and killed
much more then just muslims.*






> This is a legitimate gripe you have. In fact, according to Islamic Law, Non-Muslims are not at all mandated to wear the headscarf. This would be imposing Islam on them, and there is no compulsion in religion. This is a matter which I am very outspoken about. In fact, the Second Caliph of Islam actively discouraged Non-Muslim women from wearing the headscarf, because he wanted it to be limited to Muslim women. (He didn't forbid it, but he discouraged it.)


*Im sure that non muslims are not mandated to wear headscarf
according to your religion, BUT you have to understand that
not all of your fellow muslims (not even close) follows the
quran step by step as you do. Therefore when a muslim
society or a person does something in your religions
name (such as this with my girl) we blame the religion
because again, they are doing it in the name of the
religion. Had they not been "muslims" they whould
not have had that rule/law (im talking any random law)*





> Nonetheless, it is wrong to demonize Muslims as a whole because of this


*Im not trying to demonize ALL muslims, my 3 best friends
who are brothers are in fact muslims from the lebanon.
but they are VERY much unlike other muslims , they are 
very just and fair people, and they consider me as their brother.
And they know my oponin about the majority of muslims.

Anyway im just trying to show the double standards
because around here muslims wants to be treated
equal and they are, but in there own society its
a whole other ball, and thats what im trying to say.*





> In fact, many European countries have banned the headscarf in schools.


*Besides french (whom i think have dumped that law now)
what other EU countrys has that rule??*






> One guard. Wow. So many Americans have called me a "sand-n**ger." So what?


*Come on now, dont act stupid. You know very well
that guard WAS acting on the rule of his country
and airport. What whould you rather a whole military
group show up and tell my friend to remove his cross?*

----------


## Kratos

> Since the rise of Ataturk in the early 1900s, Turkey has been ruled by fervent non-religious non-practicing *secularists*. They are Muslim only ethnically, not religiously. In other words, the same way that some Jews are atheists but still call themselves Jewish atheists. 
> 
> In any case, things are changing in Turkey, and Muslim parties have been becoming more popular, but the secular atheist army keeps a check on them and periodically crushes them.
> 
> Once again, you don't understand the issues.


No, once again you don't understand the issues. It has nothing to do with being atheist. I can promise you they are quite religious in Turkey.
Secularism is the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.
It's a good thing and keeps the religion from being forced on the people. I know about the rise of these "muslim" parties, and I urge you to see Turkey before they gain control.

How on earth does co-mingling of Church and state promote religious freedom?

----------


## BuffedGuy

I am not responding to NightWolf's and Kratos's post just yet, since I am actually studying. I will reply to them shortly (in a few hours), God-Willing.

I just came back real fast to respond to Derek and make some quick general comments:

I think this thread has gone down a wrong turn. It has become an us vs them sort of argument, i.e. Team Islam vs Team Christianity. I don't believe in this clash to begin with. I think some of my posts may have come across this way, but I was just trying to give some perspective.

So to be clear on my stance, and in order to be fair and balanced, I will say this: America--which I consider a Christian majority country--has done many great things, which we should appreciate. This includes the religious freedoms that minority groups, including Muslims, enjoy. This is also true in many other European Christian countries of today.

I did not mean to imply otherwise, or make this an us vs them thread. I acknowledge the good in the "other", and I am not a biased partisan. I will be just, even towards adversaries in debate. This is a part of my creed and the proper way. I reject the clash of cultures and an us vs. them mentality. I call it how I see it, and try to be impartial. And all praise is due to God alone.

I will respond to the above two posts shortly, God-Willing. I just had to come back to make this post, since my heart was being bothered whilst I studied: I hate to see bigotry, or to encourage it, or to have any share of it in my heart! Let us eschew this gang mentality!

----------


## NightWolf

> You do not know that in Muslim lands nowadays, _religious_ Muslims are heavily persecuted.


this made me  :LOL:   :LOL: 

Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.

----------


## Kratos

> this made me  
> 
> Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.


no kidding, I laughed too
I don't know what he's talking about.

----------


## Kratos

> Once again, you do not understand my views or the issues at hand. I acknowledge that the Muslim world is in a very bad position nowadays. I acknowledge that Non-Muslims are not being afforded their due rights. Read the excerpt from The Modern Middle East that I posted. Today is much different than when Muslims ruled themselves before colonialism and neo-colonialism. _Historically_, Muslims were very tolerant. 
> 
> You do not understand the issues. You do not know that in Muslim lands nowadays, _religious_ Muslims are heavily persecuted. You do not get the fact that we Muslims hate the leaders put over our heads and the borders imposed upon us by the colonialists that left our lands recently. We need to shake them off, and go back to how things were before the colonial enterprise in our lands.


how many times are you going to tell me I don't understand and that I don't know this or that?

Don't like the leaders put over your heads? Somebody has to lead and who's voting them into power.
You need to shake off borders?
Maybe the borders aren't put where they should be but I doubt you really want an Muslim world free of borders. We got a population explosion going on here and Muslims are doing their fair share of populating. I'm sorry but the option of going back to the way things were isn't an option at all. Somehow the Muslim world needs to be subdivided by borders for any hope of order.

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

This is good...

Now where is my popcorn

----------


## Kratos

[O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma’dah 5: 51) 

Unbelievers are described by Muhammad (in the Qur'an) as "the vilest of animals" and "losers."

----------


## Matt

^^ Ive got mine lol... Who's your money on?

----------


## Kratos

Sura (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

Sura (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah..."


Sura (3:118) - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."


Sura (9:23) - "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers"

----------


## Kratos

Sura (53:29) - "Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world." 

Sura (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." 

Sura (3:10) - "(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire."

Sura (7:44) - "The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah is on the wrong-doers"

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

> ^^ Ive got mine lol... Who's your money on?


haha, well, whose considered the underdog on this one?

----------


## Kratos

> haha, well, whose considered the underdog on this one?


Impossible to win against buff cause he picks and chooses what he answers then talks about what he feels like regardless of relivence.

I will correct myslef that the Ottomans were tolerant compared to Europe at the time...however they would not be so by today's standards and everything I said was true. Regardless it has little to do with modern day Muslim countries.

----------


## Matt

> haha, well, whose considered the underdog on this one?


Kratos lol, Buff will never give in..

----------


## *RAGE*

no iraq and afganistan are not under western rule, we have given the countries back..

----------


## *RAGE*

I have spent three years in Iraq and one year in afganistan and there is no such thing as peace even before we got there....

----------


## Matt

And i rule Britain..

----------


## Kratos

From encyclopedia britanica buff

Islamic law made a distinction between two categories of non-Muslim subjects—pagans and dhimmis (“protected peoples,” or “peoples of the book”; i.e., those peoples who based their religious beliefs on sacred texts, such as Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians). The Muslim rulers tolerated the dhimmis and allowed them to practice their religion. In return for protection and as a mark of their submission, the dhimmis were required to pay a special poll tax known as the jizya. The rate of taxation and methods of collection varied greatly from province to province and were greatly influenced by local pre-Islamic customs. In theory the tax money was to be used for charitable purposes and the payment of salaries and pensions. In practice, however, the revenues derived from the jizya were deposited in the private treasuries of the rulers. The Ottomans usually used the proceeds of the jizya to pay their military expenses.

A convert to Islam was, in theory, no longer required to pay the jizya. The Umayyad caliphs (661–750), however, faced with increasing financial difficulties, demanded the jizya from recent converts to Islam as well as from the dhimmis. This discrimination against converts was a cause of the Abū Muslim rebellion (747) in Khorāsān and helped to precipitate the downfall of the Umayyads.

----------


## *RAGE*

Killing their own people for the most retarded things like not wearing a head dress, and losing a soccer game...Yes their are a peacful people..

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

> Impossible to win against buff cause he picks and chooses what he answers then talks about what he feels like regardless of relivence.


lol That he does my friend, but I have faith in you.





> Kratos lol, Buff will never give in..



Well, my money is on Kratos tagged team with NightWolf! haha

Buff shall be dethroned  :Madd:  :Madd:   :Smilie:

----------


## Kratos

http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/06/2...-jizya-or-die/

----------


## Kratos

So buff this is the type of religious freedom they should allow in Turkey?


http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=2134
Saudi Christian convert arrested and jailed


Jeddah (AsiaNews)  A Saudi citizen converted to Christianity has been arrested and jailed. Emad Alaabadi was taken into custody last November 29, at Hofuf, a town in eastern Saudi Arabia, but the news was reported only a few days ago by the International Christian Concern (ICC), a Washington-based human rights group. AsiaNews local sources have confirmed the report, and also say that he "is not the only Saudi Christian in jail at the moment: there are also others".

According to news obtained by ICC, other Christians  at least 3 or 4  appear to have been arrested along with Emad. The presence of Christians in Saudi prisons had also been confirmed by Brian O'Connor, in an interview with AsiaNews. Brian Savio O'Connor is a Protestant Indian who was deported from Saudi Arabia after being tortured and held in prison for "having preached Christianity". Upon his return to India, O'Connor told AsiaNews that "there are still many other Christians that need your help in Saudi prisons".

Last November 29, Amad was intercepted by the Muttawa, Saudi religion police, while he was driving his children home from school. The police escorted them home and then took Amad to the local prison. Later he was transferred to Jeddah, were he is currently imprisoned. On December 4, he managed to contact his mother, who lives in Australia, by telephone, to let her know what had happened and where he was. The mother reported that he sounded very weak: ICC said that the Muttawa agents probably tortured the Christian-faith Amad to reconvert him to Islam.

Alaabadi is 30 years old and has 4 children. He became Christian 2 years ago, but it is not known to what denomination he belongs.

*Fundamentalist Wahhabi Islam is the only expression of religion allowed in Saudi Arabia. There is no religious freedom in the country, even if Saudi officials have been tolerating the private practice of other religions. However, the Saudi religion police, the Muttawa, continues to persecute Christians in their homes where they meet to pray.* 

The construction of churches or chapels is not allowed in the country. Muslims make up 93.7% of the Saudi population of 21.6 million people. Christians, who are almost entirely foreigners, account for 3.7% of the population. There are 800,000 Catholics. There are no exact figures on the number of Saudi Christians. (LF

----------


## BuffedGuy

> this made me  
> 
> Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.





> no kidding, I laughed too
> I don't know what he's talking about.


This laughing of yours truly shows that you do not know what you are talking about at all.  :Smilie:  

Just because you made cursory visits to Turkey does not mean you have suddenly become experts on the matter. Rather, knowledge comes through education. Reading, reading, reading. It takes active effort. Do not speak on issues which you are not learned about. 

Practicing Muslims are heavily persecuted in such countries as Turkey, Egypt, etc. The fact that you do not know this shows your profound ignorance of the region, and your inability to appreciate nuances. The Muslim political parties (in both Turkey and Egypt) are banned, and their supporters languish in jails. Those men who have beards and those women who wear the headscarf are persecuted.

More to come, God-Willing.

----------


## BuffedGuy

Kratos, you are overwhelming me with your rapid fire posts. By the time I reply to one post, you've already fired off another two. Sigh. Ok, here goes...

----------


## BuffedGuy

Kratos, the way you have pathetically misquoted the Quran angers me. I am going to slam you back. Just you wait for my response. Just you wait.

----------


## Kratos

> This laughing of yours truly shows that you do not know what you are talking about at all.  
> 
> Just because you made cursory visits to Turkey does not mean you have suddenly become experts on the matter. Rather, knowledge comes through education. Reading, reading, reading. It takes active effort. Do not speak on issues which you are not learned about. 
> 
> Practicing Muslims are heavily persecuted in such countries as Turkey, Egypt, etc. The fact that you do not know this shows your profound ignorance of the region, and your inability to appreciate nuances. The Muslim political parties (in both Turkey and Egypt) are banned, and their supporters languish in jails. Those men who have beards and those women who wear the headscarf are persecuted.
> 
> More to come, God-Willing.


No, you don't understand. You don't understand. You don't understand.

head scarfs and beards are most certainly not persecuted. Totally common.
Only in State buildings and University to deminish social preasures to conform to Islam. They have chosen religious freedom instead of forcing Islam on the people people.

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

Buff, just keep it to a few paragraphs please haha  :Smilie: 

looking forward to it.

----------


## Kratos

Or maybe you ment religious freedom like this buff?

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...9/155943.shtml

----------


## BIG_TRUCK

> I don't know what you are talking about. We don't believe that Prophet Muhammad [s] did it in his sleep. We believe he was awake, and that it was a miracle of God. It is considered a mirac
> 
> _You can mock it all you want, but I don't see how it is any less believable than Prophet Jesus [as] walking on water_. I would suggest religious tolerance, and mutual respect, God-Willing.


Nice point.

----------


## Kratos

Muslims sure are nice to other religions in non-secular countries

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-in-Iran.html

----------


## BuffedGuy

Let's play Kratos's game. I guarantee that you will lose, Kratos. I will now respond to fire with fire. You talk about the Quran (taking verses out of context and with wrong translations)...let's now look at your holy book, the Bible. The gloves are off. Let's begin:

Here is what the Bible says about people who believe in a god other than the Christian one:
Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Instruction to murder any of your relatives or friends if they spread other religious faiths:
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him*; *thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death*, and afterwards the hand of all the people. *And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die..."*
Let's talk about religious tolerance. Let's see what the Bible says on how to treat a city of people who follow another religion...in fact, it says to massacre the entire city:

Deuteronomy 13:12-15 "If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, *Let us go and serve other gods,* which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; *Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."*
If you worship other than the Judeo-Christian God, you are to be killed:

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath ...gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, *and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."*
The Bible instructs to murder the leaders of other religions:

1 King 18:19; 18:40 "Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table....And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; l*et not one of them escape.* And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there."
The Bible encourages to destroy the religious temples of other faiths:
2 Kings 11:18: "And all the people of the land went into the house of Baal, and brake it down; his altars and his images brake they in pieces thoroughly and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars...More murder of whoever does not conform to the faith:
2 Chronicles 15:10-15 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. [The LORD] was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about."
Here is another list provided from an anti-Christian website, which "explains" how the Bible says to kill all those who do not worship the Judeo-Christian god:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

Oh and there's much more. Do you want any more? It's very easy to use your tactics, and just go to random anti-this or anti-that websites.

As a side-note, I don't encourage this sort of un-intellectual discourse. I'm just using your medicine on you.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Buff, just keep it to a few paragraphs please haha 
> 
> looking forward to it.


Oh don't worry, I'm not going to reply in an intellectual manner. I am going to use the same sophomoric tactics that Kratos uses. In other words, I'm just going to sling mud in a sensationalist way. Does Kratos think that he is the only one blessed with google? You don't think I can google a bunch of Anti-Christian websites and just copy/paste loads of crap here?

----------


## BuffedGuy

And for the record, I've already responded to many of the Quranic "quotes" you gave. It's in my Ask a Muslim thread. I'll respond to each of them though. Just need some time. In any case, I've already linked everyone to the Oxford translation of the Quran. So whoever wants to read the Quran to see what it is about, please do so. I encourage that. Here is the link to read the Oxford translation of the Quran:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nkey2yqygyq

Kratos, I really dislike the style you have adopted. It does not help anyone.

----------


## D7M

> Let's play Kratos's game. I guarantee that you will lose, Kratos. I will now respond to fire with fire. You talk about the Quran (taking verses out of context and with wrong translations)...let's now look at your holy book, the Bible. The gloves are off. Let's begin:
> 
> Here is what the Bible says about people who believe in a god other than the Christian one:
> Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
> Instruction to murder any of your relatives or friends if they spread other religious faiths:
> Deuteronomy 13:6-10 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him*; *thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death*, and afterwards the hand of all the people. *And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die..."*
> Let's talk about religious tolerance. Let's see what the Bible says on how to treat a city of people who follow another religion...in fact, it says to massacre the entire city:
> 
> Deuteronomy 13:12-15 "If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, *Let us go and serve other gods,* which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; *Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."*
> ...


Sorry, Buffed, fail. 

Quoting several verses from the OT, and claiming that it is somehow Christian is wrong in so many ways...and you know this. 

If you want to "mud sling" with Christian verses, show me any, any verses from the NT advocating the murder of a non-Christian.

----------


## Kratos

> Let's play Kratos's game. I guarantee that you will lose, Kratos. I will now respond to fire with fire. You talk about the Quran (taking verses out of context and with wrong translations)...let's now look at your holy book, the Bible. The gloves are off. Let's begin:
> 
> 
> .


I'm not religious so it isn't my book, hack it up all you want

----------


## Kratos

Buff, you haven't responded at all to the way Muslims are to other religious groups in secular countries nor have you responded to their distruction of artifacts I posted on the first page. This is why Isreal should remain as it is, as the record for the care of Muslim places and things is unbleamished. Muslims are allowd access to their holy places. The refugees, oh well, gotta break some eggs to make an omlette sometimes.
End of story

----------


## Prada

> Let's play Kratos's game. I guarantee that you will lose, Kratos. I will now respond to fire with fire. You talk about the Quran (taking verses out of context and with wrong translations)...let's now look at your holy book, the Bible. The gloves are off. Let's begin:


You might want to put the gloves back on because this thread inevitably will end up being locked.

----------


## Kratos

bible quotes you picked are pretty lame dude
you just said what you felt like and put a number after most of them

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Sorry, Buffed, fail. 
> 
> Quoting several verses from the OT, and claiming that it is somehow Christian is wrong in so many ways...and you know this. 
> 
> If you want to "mud sling" with Christian verses, show me any, any verses from the NT advocating the murder of a non-Christian.


No Derek, not fail. You can't make up the rules of debate here. 

First of all, I am just mud-slinging here. I am not actually trying to claim that the religion of Christianity is murderous or intolerant or this or that. I am only using the tactic of Kratos back at him. 

You don't think that we Muslims also have proper understandings of the verses he (mis)quoted and mistranslated, totally out of context?

I don't *actually* think your religion teaches to kill non-believers. But do you actually think mine does? If so, you are guilty of a horrible double-standard, whereby you don't mind using a random string of half-quotes when it is against Islam, but when it is against Christianity, then suddenly it's off limits. You must apply the same standard to both.

Furthermore, we've already discussed this issue before, Derek. You as a Christian cannot shield yourself from the Old Testament entirely. The fact of the matter is that your God commanded the believers to do certain things. Regardless of if those things were abrogated, it still comes into play in a polemical debate. Look at it this way: let's pretend if Prophet Muhammad [s] butchered a million people. (He didn't, but I'm just saying, hypothetically.) But then when you guys point that out, I would say "no no, that law of butchering was abrogated by the law of mercy." Do you think this would neutralize the issue? Of course not. The fact of the matter is: why did he [s] kill those millions of people before the law was abrogated? (Of course, this is all hypothetical, since the Prophet Muhammad [s] didn't kill millions of people, and I seek refuge from uttering such a thing.)

So the issue is the same here. Why did the Judeo-Christian prophets kill so many people of other faiths? Why did the Judeo-Christian God command them to do that? 

Again, you can't get off that easy.

Furthermore, the debate was not simply about killing non-believers. In fact, Kratos didn't quote any verse in the Quran that said to kill non-believers (since there isn't any). It was about making the Quran out to be an intolerant book in general. So I quoted many verses from the New Testament that come across as intolerant (if placed in a list rapid fire manner, as Kratos arranged them).

And again, you can't decide to exclude the OT. That's fair game. It doesn't make logical sense to say it's off limits. Even if it was all abrogated, the fact is that your Judeo-Christian prophets did such and such on the commands of your Judeo-Christian God.

But again, I don't like this style of polemical debate to begin with. I rather like studying these matters in intellectual and academic ways.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> bible quotes you picked are pretty lame dude
> you just said what you felt like and put a number after most of them


Umm, meanwhile you mistranslated verses entirely. And I didn't write that up for the Bible. I just copied/pasted from anti-Christian websites, just like you copied/pasted from anti-Islam websites. I personally would never write in such a sophomoric and sensationalist manner. And I included tons of actual quotes. Go learn to read first. The list with paraphrasing came afterward.

----------


## Kratos

lets get our heads out of history and our asses for a min buff as I already concided the Ottomans to be progressive for their time.
Christians and Jews moved forward
Muslims, I'll let you fill in the blanks on where the Muslim world is on acceptance

----------


## BuffedGuy

> lets get our heads out of history and our asses for a min buff as I already concided the Ottomans to be progressive for their time.


Good. I'm glad your google research confirmed that.




> Christians and Jews moved forward Muslims, I'll let you fill in the blanks on where the Muslim world is on acceptance


Do you have any idea why? 

It's like judging blacks for all that goes on in Africa.

The fact is that the post-colonial world is wayyyy behind in ALL aspects. Hmmm, I wonder why! Once you colonize a land for hundreds of years, don't expect them to be up and running right away. Do you know that many Muslim countries only got independence very recently? It took America two hundred years to treat blacks like human beings. Just in the sixties, Americans were hosing down blacks on the street. 

Get some perspective dude.

The fight for the rights of Non-Muslims in Muslim lands is on. My own favorite Islamic priest that I follow has dedicated his life to it. It will take time and a lot of effort. Just like the civil rights movement didn't happen overnight.

And by the way, you said "jews and christians" have moved on. Christians have progressed a lot on this matter, but not Jews. The Zionists of Israel are way more oppressive of non-Jews than Muslims are of Non-Muslims.

----------


## Kratos

> Good. I'm glad your google research confirmed that.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any idea why? 
> 
> .



Haha, yeah my google research. No dude, everything I said was true. It just sucked even worse to be a Jew or other religion in Europe at the time. Just cause one place sucks more than another doesn't make the place that sucks less a great place to live.

Does it matter why pertaining the topic at hand?
So you agree, the Muslim world is a mess and they shouldn't be given control of Isreal. See that wasn't so hard.

And why don't you get some perspective
one has nothing to do with the other
fundamentalism is spreading like a cancer to the religion

----------


## BuffedGuy

In any case, this thread was about Palestinians. The argument that Muslims have been oppressive and hence it is justified to oppress Palestinians is as inane as saying that it was ok to decimate the Native Americans since they were "barbaric" and "intolerant/cruel savages" before the Europeans arrived. It's as inane as saying that the enslavement of blacks by whites was justified because the blacks took their own as slaves, or took others as slaves. 

These are horrible arguments. Nobody would tolerate them when it comes to anyone other than Muslims/Arabs.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> So you agree, the Muslim world is a mess and they shouldn't be given control of Isreal. See that wasn't so hard.
> 
> And why don't you get some perspective
> one has nothing to do with the other
> fundamentalism is spreading like a cancer to the religion


First of all, your argument is retarded. The fundamentalist extremism that is surging in Muslim lands is *because* of the Israeli and Western occupations of Muslim lands. So the cause of the "cancer" was the colonial "radiation".

Secondly, we're not talking about giving Palestine control of Israel. Please try staying on point here. The Palestinian people as a whole--and myself included--have said we just want a Palestinian state, side-by-side with the Israeli state. So you are moving the goalposts altogether. The issue is not "should the Palestinians rule Israel", but rather: "Should the Palestinians be able to rule themselves" or--worded another way--"Is the Israeli colonization of native Palestinian land justified?" Or another way: "do we believe in international law, the right of return, the Geneva conventions, and popular sovereignty?"

Thirdly, you are wrong altogether about the Jews in Muslim lands. If you had learned stuff from history books--instead of from the internet--you would know that Jews had their Golden Age under Muslim rule. They did not just survive under Muslim rule; they flourished and thrived. This is attested to by the Orthodox anti-Zionist Jewish groups themselves, and accepted by neutral academics who have no agenda. 

Peace.

----------


## Kratos

won't be the first time people were displaced, won't be the last time
injustice is part of history
lets move forward
for now the mosques and artifacts important to your religion are safe
this is what we have to work

----------


## BuffedGuy

> won't be the first time people were displaced, won't be the last time
> injustice is part of history


Umm, no. If the Soviet Union invaded and occupied Florida...and if Flordian Americans had fought back for 60 years to repel the Soviet invaders...do you think they would just give up in 60 years? Do you think anyone would be saying "oh well, people are displaced all the time." 

The reality is that you only think that of "brown people" who to you are just like animals. Sure, they get displaced; doesn't that stuff happen all the time in those animal lands of Africa and Asia?

But if it happened to any white people in America--to Americans--then suddenly it's a different story. You know it.

When 9/11 happened, should we say: "that's war. People die all the time." ? Did Americans say that? No. But when it's brown people, then hey, it's ok. If 2,000 Americans die, then all hell must break loose. If 2,000 brown sand n***ers die, then who the hell cares. It's just population control.

Furthermore, your argument that our mosques and artifacts are safe is completely incorrect. Masjid al-Aqsa--the third holiest mosque to Muslims--is under constant threat of being built over by Israeli buildings.

----------


## Kratos

> Thirdly, you are wrong altogether about the Jews in Muslim lands. If you had learned stuff from history books--instead of from the internet--you would know that Jews had their Golden Age under Muslim rule. They did not just survive under Muslim rule; they flourished and thrived. This is attested to by the Orthodox anti-Zionist Jewish groups themselves, and accepted by neutral academics who have no agenda. 
> 
> Peace.


Life wasn't all that, it was just better then elsewhere. They were still second class citizens. They did OK though.

----------


## Kratos

> Furthermore, your argument that our mosques and artifacts are safe is completely incorrect. Masjid al-Aqsa--the third holiest mosque to Muslims--is under constant threat of being built over by Israeli buildings.


oh really, you're being dramatic-

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Life wasn't all that, it was just better then elsewhere. They were still second class citizens. They did OK though.


Sure. I'll bite.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> oh really, you're being dramatic-


The Palestinians on the ground have issued statements that this is the case. I certainly can't prove it. But Israel has demolished THOUSANDS of Palestinian homes and THOUSANDS of mosques, so I don't think this is that out there. By the way, the Dome of the Rock mosque is NOT Al-Aqsa mosque.

----------


## Kratos

well they can't even fix a walkway damaged by and earthquake without it making international news. I understand this is a sensitive site, but the outrage from the muslim community is a bit much. I'm sure the press will keep them honest.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1350273.ece

----------


## BuffedGuy

> well they can't even fix a walkway damaged by and earthquake without it making international news. I understand this is a sensitive site, but the outrage from the muslim community is a bit much. I'm sure the press will keep them honest.
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1350273.ece


When Israel invades Gaza, it does so to "kill terrorists." When Israel demolishes homes, it is "clearing illegal housing settlements" or "removing structures built without a building permit." This is the typical language used by Israelis to justify their land-clearing operations. 

Therefore, if Israeli bull-dozers came near the Al-Aqsa mosque, I doubt Palestinians would trust them with their "we're here to repair a walkway" excuse. 

Plus, the issue was this (mentioned in the article you quoted):
The Waqf religious trust in Jerusalem, which administers the site, accused Israel of undermining the foundations of the Al-Aqsa compound. Adnan Husseini, the Waqf chairman, said he first learned about the construction plans through media reports and warned the police and Jerusalem city council that the plan would spark fierce opposition.The Waqf trust says that they were not informed about any of this, which puts Israel's intentions to question. 

I certainly don't trust Israel. Not one bit.

----------


## Dinosaur

> Originally Posted by BuffedGuy 
> You do not know that in Muslim lands nowadays, religious Muslims are heavily persecuted.





> this made me  
> 
> Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.


the statement said by buff is very true. practicing muslims are often or i should say most of the time are tortured by dictator leaders or governements, and this is no a joke. they are very afraid of them to control any majority party or endorse any opponent.
you said that you have visited tunisia. let me ask u a question, have you ever seen a president who gets elected for last 25 yrs without getting beaten up by no opponent. that's Mr zeen alabideen the president of tunisia the champ that should tell you something about his polocies. I heard he's ganna be the king in the next term or so.

----------


## Dinosaur

here is another terrorist from gitmo speaking of the welcome he has recieved from the soldiers at gitmo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXLDtAYm6SI

----------


## Dinosaur

Another gitmo prisoner who got released with no charges. 
I still don't get it, if they claim that this people are terrorists then why there isn't a genuine court, why r they being stripped from their rights as a human being, why r they being released with no charges, why can't they have the right to meet with their lawyers. why..why....????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ_uB...eature=channel

----------


## Kratos

> I certainly don't trust Israel. Not one bit.


I don't expect you to, it's your history and you have a right to that.

----------


## NightWolf

> This laughing of yours truly shows that you do not know what you are talking about at all.  
> 
> Just because you made cursory visits to Turkey does not mean you have suddenly become experts on the matter. Rather, knowledge comes through education. *Reading, reading, reading*. It takes active effort. Do not speak on issues which you are not learned about. 
> 
> Practicing Muslims are heavily persecuted in such countries as Turkey, Egypt, etc. The fact that you do not know this shows your profound ignorance of the region, and your inability to appreciate nuances. The Muslim political parties (in both Turkey and Egypt) are banned, and their supporters languish in jails. Those men who have beards and those women who wear the headscarf are persecuted.
> 
> More to come, God-Willing.


Reading?? your joking right??

How about you GO and SEE (instead of just reading)
I have been there 3 times and what you are saying
is completley BS, you know why? because i have SEEN this.

I dont care what your muslim teacher tells you in class,
this is not true at all in regards of turkey. I was there when
it was ramadan (the muslim fasting days) and guess what?
The WHOLE city was fasting, and they were also extra conservative 
under this period of time compared to the other times i was there 
so who exactly is persecuteing the muslims over there?? I mean all the citizens are strong muslim belivers although they are more modern muslims then arabs but still belivers.

Now if you are talking about a political party that
is against a very strict muslim party, thats a whole diffrent
thing, <--- thats just politics.

----------


## Kratos

> the statement said by buff is very true. practicing muslims are often or i should say most of the time are tortured by dictator leaders or governements, and this is no a joke. they are very afraid of them to control any majority party or endorse any opponent.
> you said that you have visited tunisia. let me ask u a question, have you ever seen a president who gets elected for last 25 yrs without getting beaten up by no opponent. that's Mr zeen alabideen the president of tunisia the champ that should tell you something about his polocies. I heard he's ganna be the king in the next term or so.


I'm not sure what you mean. The constitution declares Islam as the official state religion and requires the President to be Muslim. It's a 99% Muslim country.

In 1948 there were 105k jews living there. Now there are virtually none...who's being persicuted?

----------


## Kratos

There is no acceptable soloution to the Muslim world that doesn't include dispersal/genocide/conversion of all Jews in Israel.

----------


## NightWolf

> There is no acceptable soloution to the Muslim world that doesn't include dispersal/genocide/conversion of all Jews in Israel.



Quoted for truth

----------


## NightWolf

> the statement said by buff is very true. practicing muslims are often or i should say most of the time are tortured by dictator leaders or governement.


Chariff, i hope your not talking about turkey or
tunisia now? because if you ever been there you
know thats not true, The leaders are muslims
and the citizens are muslims, so you see it makes no sense?

----------


## BuffedGuy

> There is no acceptable soloution to the Muslim world that doesn't include dispersal/genocide/conversion of all Jews in Israel.


Please stop talking nonsense. Hamas are some of the most radical Muslims out there, and they have said that they do not want a genocide, expulsion, or forced conversion of Jews in Israel. Rather, they have said that they want a two-state solution, a Palestinian state side-by-side with an Israeli one. The vast majority of Palestinians want peace with Israel.

The vast majority of the Muslims want this sort of solution. Nobody wants this 'dispersal/genocide/conversion' nonsense you are talking about. Even the *MOST* radical Muslims who will only be happy with a one-state solution under Palestinian control say that the Jews can live there as citizens under the Islamic state. 

But again, the majority of the Palestinians and Muslims want a two-state solution. This includes the Palestinian people who signed a document to this effect, which included even the radical Hamas members. 

You have lost all your credibility. You are a complete bigot, who speaks utter nonsense.

In fact, you blathering bigot, it is many of the Israelis--since the creation of the state of Israel--who want the expulsion of all Arabs from Eretz Israel. This has been stated by Israeli prime ministers themselves. The fact that you don't realize this testifies to your poor grasp of the issues. It also proves your bigotry. You keep crying about Muslims calling for an expulsion of Jews and yet are completely oblivious of the very _real_ Israeli intention to expel Arabs, something which they have actually enacted.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Reading?? your joking right??
> 
> How about you GO and SEE (instead of just reading)
> I have been there 3 times and what you are saying
> is completley BS, you know why? because i have SEEN this.


I've been to the Muslim world, and unlike you, I have lived there for years. 

And yes, reading is important. Obviously you are not well-read. In order to understand issues like these, you need to have both experience (which includes world travel) as well as book knowledge. You lack the latter. You don't even deny this. You are not well-read. You are not an educated person. You can't even spell properly. Every single one of your posts has egregious spelling mistakes in it, which testifies to your education level.




> I dont care what your muslim teacher tells you in class,
> this is not true at all in regards of turkey. I was there when
> it was ramadan (the muslim fasting days) and guess what?
> The WHOLE city was fasting, and they were also extra conservative 
> under this period of time compared to the other times i was there 
> so who exactly is persecuteing the muslims over there?? I mean all the citizens are strong muslim belivers although they are more modern muslims then arabs but still belivers.


You are completely incapable of understanding nuances. Just because a person fasts, it does not mean that they are a conservative practicing Muslim. Even many liberal Muslims--who drink and party--fast in the month of Ramadan.

Again, the fact that you don't know of the persecution of practicing Muslims in secular Turkey--speaks to your profound ignorance. Listen, go pick up a book or two. Expand your mind.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> In 1948 there were 105k jews living there. Now there are virtually none...who's being persicuted?


You have such a simplistic understanding of things. Let's say that Jews were persecuted there. How does that disprove that practicing Muslims are persecuted there as well? Wow, you really have no logical thinking skills. Again, due to your ignorance, you are unable to understand nuances in the Muslim world.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Chariff, i hope your not talking about turkey or
> tunisia now? because if you ever been there you
> know thats not true, The leaders are muslims
> and the citizens are muslims, so you see it makes no sense?


Again, horribly simplistic. Saddam Hussein was Muslim in the same way, i.e. _culturally_ Muslim. He heavily persecuted practicing Muslims. Oh wait, I guess you'll deny that too. lol you really have no idea about anything. All your views are based on anecdotal observation and prejudice. You met some Muslims in your life, a lot of them were this way or that way, so now to you, *all* Muslims are like that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Muslims are not a monolithic or homogeneous group.

----------


## Kratos

> Please stop talking nonsense. Hamas are some of the most radical Muslims out there, and they have said that they do not want a genocide, expulsion, or forced conversion of Jews in Israel. Rather, they have said that they want a two-state solution, a Palestinian state side-by-side with an Israeli one. The vast majority of Palestinians want peace with Israel.
> 
> The vast majority of the Muslims want this sort of solution. Nobody wants this 'dispersal/genocide/conversion' nonsense you are talking about. Even the *MOST* radical Muslims who will only be happy with a one-state solution under Palestinian control say that the Jews can live there as citizens under the Islamic state. 
> 
> But again, the majority of the Palestinians and Muslims want a two-state solution. This includes the Palestinian people who signed a document to this effect, which included even the radical Hamas members. 
> 
> You have lost all your credibility. You are a complete bigot, who speaks utter nonsense.
> 
> In fact, you blathering bigot, it is many of the Israelis--since the creation of the state of Israel--who want the expulsion of all Arabs from Eretz Israel. The fact that you don't realize this testifies to your poor grasp of the issues.


the two state soloution is a farse and you know it
what does it solve?
just give us a little, just give us a little (until we have the whole thing)
which state controls the temple mount under this soloution?

Because in your opinion and in the opinion of many Arabs, Israelis want the expulsion of all Arabs, hasn't made it so. You are speaking about opinions of people you've never met and not their actions.

No, I am not a bigot, I totally support your religious freedom and respect your views. I don't feel that this is a soloution that would work in practice. I know you are very smart and well read and the way you practice your religion is respectful of others. I tend to oversimplify things, at times to make a point. But, I haven't earned your name calling. How many times have you called me ignorant and told me I don't understand in this thread?

----------


## BuffedGuy

> No, I am not a bigot, I totally support your religious freedom and respect your views.


Yes, you are a bigot. And no, just supporting my religious freedom does not mean you are not a bigot. You are a bigot because you say things like: "All Muslims want the genocide of Jews." Imagine if I said: "All Jews are bent on world domination." Sorry, these are bigoted statements. 




> the two state soloution is a farse and you know it
> what does it solve?
> just give us a little, just give us a little (until we have the whole thing)
> which state controls the temple mount under this soloution?


This also shows your bigotry. Right now, Israel has 100% of the land, yet you do not say anything against them. But when Palestinians demand 50% (which by the way was granted to them by the United Nations and international law), suddenly you say things like "they are just using this as a ploy to get the whole thing back." Ummm, sherlock: Israelis already have the entire thing, so why no criticism of them? Even if the Palestinians have the intention (as you so claim), they didn't actually do it. Meanwhile, the Israelis had the intention and THEY DID IT, yet no criticism from you.

So sorry, you are a bigot. You apply two different standards: one for the Judeo-Christian peoples, and one for Muslims. Alas, I'm used to this bigotry however: how common is it for Americans nowadays to cry these huge big tears for 2,000 people that died on 9/11, but not give two craps about the tens of thousands of Muslims that die from American bombs? Two different standards: American lives are precious, whereas Muslim lives are just scum. 

And one more thing: it's actually not 50/50. The Israelis get the majority of the land, whereas the Palestinians would get only the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, whereas the Israelis would get all the better land including West Jerusalem.

----------


## Kratos

> You have such a simplistic understanding of things. Let's say that Jews were persecuted there. How does that disprove that practicing Muslims are persecuted there as well? Wow, you really have no logical thinking skills. Again, due to your ignorance, you are unable to understand nuances in the Muslim world.


Let's not say they were persecuted for the sake of argument. They were, and the gvmt was used as an aid to do so. After 1956, the new Muslim government eliminated the Jewish Rabbinical tribunal and Jewish community councils, destroying the Jewish quarter of Tunis. After the Six-Day War in 1967, Muslims laid waste to the Great Synagogue of Tunis, leaving the only community left on the island of Djerba. Most of them were forced from their homeland to Israel.

Can you further explain this persecution of Muslims as I'm trying to understand. I'm not totally close minded, I'm interested.

----------


## Kratos

> Yes, you are a bigot. And no, just supporting my religious freedom does not mean you are not a bigot. You are a bigot because you say things like: "All Muslims want the genocide of Jews." Imagine if I said: "All Jews are bent on world domination." Sorry, these are bigoted statements. 
> .


I didn't say all muslims want the genocide of jews. I said when it comes to Israel the Muslim world as a whole will accept nothing less then total Muslim control, which will end in either conversion/dispersion/or genocide. I say this because that's the ultimate fate of Jews in current Muslim nations. Do you disagree? That's fine, but I don't feel the two state soloution would satisfy the Muslim world. Sure, they would take it cause it's better than what they have now, but won't be happy until they have all of Israel.

I was under the impression we were two adults speaking, chill with the names.

----------


## Kratos

> This also shows your bigotry. Right now, Israel has 100% of the land, yet you do not say anything against them. But when Palestinians demand 50% (which by the way was granted to them by the United Nations and international law), suddenly you say things like "they are just using this as a ploy to get the whole thing back." Ummm, sherlock: Israelis already have the entire thing, so why no criticism of them? Even if the Palestinians have the intention (as you so claim), they didn't actually do it. Meanwhile, the Israelis had the intention and THEY DID IT, yet no criticism from you.
> 
> So sorry, you are a bigot. You apply two different standards: one for the Judeo-Christian peoples, and one for Muslims. Alas, I'm used to this bigotry however: how common is it for Americans nowadays to cry these huge big tears for 2,000 people that died on 9/11, but not give two craps about the tens of thousands of Muslims that die from American bombs? Two different standards: American lives are precious, whereas Muslim lives are just scum. 
> 
> And one more thing: it's actually not 50/50. The Israelis get the majority of the land, whereas the Palestinians would get only the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, whereas the Israelis would get all the better land including West Jerusalem.


You mean they control 100% of thier country without wanting to concede their border inward? You're right I am a bigot.

How do you know how I feel about 9/11 or the Muslims who have died?

----------


## Kratos

> Obviously you are not well-read. In order to understand issues like these, you need to have both experience (which includes world travel) as well as book knowledge. You lack the latter. You don't even deny this. You are not well-read. You are not an educated person. You can't even spell properly. Every single one of your posts has egregious spelling mistakes in it, which testifies to your education level.
> .


Buff, you're too smart for this resorting to personal attacks, it doesn't become you. This isn't a spelling bee.

----------


## amcon

to understand the muslim world as a whole... would be a task it would be like saying understand every christian or jew sect good and bad... one thing that is very well known is that obama(the liberal scum bag) "cow towed" to the muslim world and it was precieved as a huge (huge huge huge huge) sign of weakness... they even stated that oboma was doing that because of the weakness of our economy, and of our principals, of our morals!!! and i will throw this out their - these terrorists - believe that by going nucular they will bring the end to the world - thus heaven on earth... 

i say this bring it on!!! then we will show them what america is all about !!!

----------


## amcon

> Buff, you're too smart for this resorting to personal attacks, it doesn't become you. This isn't a spelling bee.


when people start to "attack" off of the subject stated, that means your winning in their mind... that is when they start to fear you in to responding cause you might spell a word wrong and be critisized (sp)... but you know what? dont sweat it cause at least you have you world view right!!! and we can look at them like this :1laugh:  :1laugh:

----------


## amcon

> You have such a simplistic understanding of things. Let's say that Jews were persecuted there. How does that disprove that practicing Muslims are persecuted there as well? Wow, you really have no logical thinking skills. Again, due to your ignorance, you are unable to understand nuances in the Muslim world.


dont get me started with this crap... what is good for the goose is good for the gander!! if you want to play that game - you just gave israel the right to fire back... 

answer softly cause i am trust me!!!

----------


## MuscleScience

> You can't even spell properly. Every single one of your posts has egregious spelling mistakes in it, which testifies to your education level.


I take offense to that, I cant spell for shit. If someone put a gun to my head and said spell nessicary correctly or you die, I would surely be dead....... :2jk:  

I have two post grad degrees ( or will by the end of the year) and research publications. I think it is a mental disorder or something.

----------


## Kratos

> Again, horribly simplistic. Saddam Hussein was Muslim in the same way, i.e. _culturally_ Muslim. He heavily persecuted practicing Muslims. Oh wait, I guess you'll deny that too. .


We removed him for you...you're welcome.

Joking if you can't tell

----------


## NightWolf

> I've been to the Muslim world, and unlike you, I have lived there for years


*Ya you been to pakistan, your home country, that makes you
an expert on ALL the other muslim countrys*  :Aajack: 





> Obviously you are not well-read. In order to understand issues like these, you need to have both experience (which includes world travel) 
> as well as book knowledge. You lack the latter. You don't even deny this. You are not well-read. You are not an educated person. You can't even spell properly. Every single one of your posts has egregious spelling mistakes in it, which testifies to your education level.



*Am not well read? how do you know that? because
i always have a diffrent opinon then you? it is already
well known on this board and many members have told
that you take your OPINONS as FACTS. oh ya you been
to pakistan so your a world traveler  
I promise you, i have traveled and seen much more at the
age of 28 then you will for the rest of your brainwashed life. 
The only thing you are learned about is islamic brainwashing, 
on other subjects you are clueless, you even said you wanted 
to leave the board because there was not many threads you can post in.

And about the spelling, you know very well that english
is not my first language, so lets see you speak and type
in my language? way to go, attack someones spelling
when you dont have anything else to say about the subject
in hand paki.*





> Obviously you are not well-read. In order to understand issues like these, you need to have both experience (which includes world travel) 
> as well as book knowledge. You lack the latter. You don't even deny this.


*Ya, im sorry that i just dont belive what some schmoe says about 
something (as you do) and that i want to GO SEE for myself with my own eyes.*




> You are completely incapable of understanding nuances. Just because a person fasts, it does not mean that they are a conservative practicing Muslim. Even many liberal Muslims--who drink and party--fast in the month of Ramadan.


*Sometimes it really fells like talking to a 8 year old boy
with you, what is you dont understand?? they ARE muslims,
almost the WHOLE country are muslims, both the leaders
AND the citizens, can you get that thru your thick skull??
Do they want extremists in that country? no offcourse not!
What you are saying is that muslims are torturing other muslims
just for being muslims! I guess your to stupid to understand
how idiotic that sounds..*





> Again, the fact that you don't know of the persecution of practicing Muslims in secular Turkey--speaks to your profound ignorance. Listen, go pick up a book or two. Expand your mind.


*Again, why dont get up from your chair, the one you sit on
all day and cry about muslims on a steroid and GO SEE for yourself
instead of reading a book! Im 100% you will come back and say
"Hey my islamic teacher was wrong and i was completley off!*

----------


## NightWolf

> This also shows your bigotry. Right now, Israel has 100% of the land, yet you do not say anything against them.


*This post from buff was made to Kratos but i will reply
to it*

As a muslim you should know that everything that happens is
gods will, right mr god willing? Israel has at the moment
100% of the land, that means that it is Gods will that they have it,
So.. WHO THE FVCK ARE YOU to question god??

----------


## Kratos

you guys both got your jabs in now
lets try to respect each other from now on
unless you're loosing and want the thread to get deleted buff?
since the state of israel is important to you I'm guessing you'd rather speak more on the issue.

----------


## Dinosaur

> I'm not sure what you mean. The constitution declares Islam as the official state religion and requires the President to be Muslim. It's a 99% Muslim country.
> 
> In 1948 there were 105k jews living there. Now there are virtually none...who's being persicuted?


yes that's what u see on the paper and that's what most of those tyrant leaders claim, but when it comes to virtue and practicing its very diffrent.
small example, my cousin smokes, drinks and party but when ramadan comes he fast. so how would you fit him in those categories according to ur judging.

----------


## Kratos

> yes that's what u see on the paper and that's what most of those tyrant leaders claim, but when it comes to virtue and practicing its very diffrent.
> small example, my cousin smokes, drinks and party but when ramadan comes he fast. so how would you fit him in those categories according to ur judging.


but they aren't stopping him from not smoking, drinking or partying
so where is the opression?

----------


## Kratos

Btw charrif thanks for providing a second muslim perspective as I'm sure buff feels a little tag teamed by now.

----------


## NightWolf

> you guys both got your jabs in now
> lets try to respect each other from now on
> unless you're loosing and want the thread to get deleted buff?
> since the state of israel is important to you I'm guessing you'd rather speak more on the issue.


I was holding my tongue in all my posts
and was on topic until he started with personal attacks
because he got his ass handed to him on the subject.

----------


## NightWolf

Charriff is a good guy because even when he has
diffrent opinons, he debates in a good manner
and does not throw punches under the belt
as buff always seems to do with his replys.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> I didn't say all muslims want the genocide of jews. I said when it comes to Israel the Muslim world as a whole will accept nothing less then total Muslim control, which will end in either conversion/dispersion/or genocide.


And I am telling you that you have no right to speak for the Muslims. Yes, in your mind's eye the Muslims are blood-thirsty savages who could only want this and nothing else. But unfortunately for you, they have done polls on this matter, and the vast majority of the Muslims and Palestinians want peace with Israel. They do, however, want a fair peace, and what constitutes a fair peace, would be to go back to the 1967 borders or the 1947 ones. This is the general sentiment in the Muslim world.

You can't keep saying otherwise.




> I say this because that's the ultimate fate of Jews in current Muslim nations. Do you disagree?


Umm, no. Historically, the Muslims were the ones who invited Jews to live in their lands. I've already established this. For HUNDREDS of years, Muslims allowed Jews in their lands, and Jews fled to Muslim lands for refuge. And great thanks do the Zionist Jews give by expelling the Muslims from Palestine. Think of how amazing this is: we are the ones who kept allowing them back, time and time again. But the minute they got control, they expelled millions of Palestinians, and denied them the Right of Return. We gave them the right of return; they did not give us this, and they continue to deny it.

With regards to Anti-Semitism in Muslim world, it's no less than the anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment in Israel. Do you deny this? Do you know how Arabs and Muslims are treated in Jewish Israel? Worse than dogs. 

So please explain why you are trying to vilify the Muslims when a worse situation exists in the Jewish Israel? 




> That's fine, but I don't feel the two state soloution would satisfy the Muslim world.


I don't give two craps what you feel. Since when do you speak for us? Just be quiet.




> Sure, they would take it cause it's better than what they have now, but won't be happy until they have all of Israel.


Again, stop speaking for us. I know that as a white man you think you can speak for little brown brother, but please stop.




> Can you further explain this persecution of Muslims as I'm trying to understand. I'm not totally close minded, I'm interested.


Simple. You get harassed by police and arbitrarily thrown in jail.




> You mean they control 100% of thier country without wanting to concede their border inward?


Wow, this right here is really stupid of you to say. Do you know that even in Israel they call it "the Occupied Territories." Do you know what the word "occupied" means?




> one thing that is very well known is that obama(the liberal scum bag) "cow towed" to the muslim world and it was precieved as a huge (huge huge huge huge) sign of weakness...


How on earth did Obama cow-tow to the Muslims? He upped the colonial war in Afghanistan and continues the colonial war in Iraq. That is called cow-towing?

Why don't you speak about how Obama grovels and cow-tows to the Israeli lobby, namely AIPAC? He had to ask one of his appointees to step down just because of AIPAC's pressure. 




> they even stated that oboma was doing that because of the weakness of our economy, and of our principals, of our morals!!! and i will throw this out their - these terrorists - believe that by going nucular they will bring the end to the world - thus heaven on earth...


No, I am sorry, but that is not the belief of the terrorists. They don't want to bring an end to the world. That is sensationalism, and just inaccurate. Their belief is that America has killed Muslim civilians, so now it's time to kill American civilians. And they believe that by doing that they will tire out America and Americans. There is nothing about bringing an end to the world. 




> i say this bring it on!!! then we will show them what america is all about !!!


This type of jingo-ism and posturing is dangerous. It is what the extremists on both sides say. Rather, we should have a mutual de-escalation. We should start talking instead of fighting. We should have mutual understanding and peace.

----------


## Dinosaur

> Chariff, i hope your not talking about turkey or
> tunisia now? because if you ever been there you
> know thats not true, The leaders are muslims
> and the citizens are muslims, so you see it makes no sense?



I have been to tunisia and I literally know what's going on over there.
do you happen to know who abu rqiba is? he was the ex president of tunisia before the current president zeen al abideen took power.
briefly, let me tell you little bit about how this tyrants ruled, destroyed his people and striped them from their rights. 
he almost banned the fasting of ramadan, cause he said that it makes people tired and therefore it slows the production of the economy. he said that the friday prayer should be shortend and divided into two groups one group will have half an hour to pray and go back to work while the second group will take place of the first one and once they are done they will go back to work. one more thing amongst many other bad things he allowed into his country is legalizing the prostitution and I could go on and on... etc 

As for turkey my sister lived there and I do have a broad idea of what Iam talking about.

----------


## BuffedGuy

Look at NightWolf...now he's using racial slurs like "Paki." But you're not a bigot right? hahahaha

----------


## BuffedGuy

> We removed him for you...you're welcome.
> 
> Joking if you can't tell


"You" put him in power to begin with.

----------


## Dinosaur

> but they aren't stopping him from not smoking, drinking or partying
> so where is the opression?


Kratos, I am not quite sure what mean by saying stopping him...
as well as the opression thing. could u explain plz.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> *This post from buff was made to Kratos but i will reply
> to it*
> 
> As a muslim you should know that everything that happens is
> gods will, right mr god willing? Israel has at the moment
> 100% of the land, that means that it is Gods will that they have it,
> So.. WHO THE FVCK ARE YOU to question god??


If you ask this question, then you have no idea at all about the Islamic theology. Once again, you are completely ignorant. And by completely ignorant, I only mean about when it comes to the Middle East, Islam, and the Muslim world. That's my entire point. You speak on issues that you have no knowledge of. 

As for this:




> Sometimes it really fells like talking to a 8 year old boy
> with you, what is you dont understand?? they ARE muslims,
> almost the WHOLE country are muslims, both the leaders
> AND the citizens, can you get that thru your thick skull??
> Do they want extremists in that country? no offcourse not!
> What you are saying is that muslims are torturing other muslims
> just for being muslims! I guess your to stupid to understand
> how idiotic that sounds..


Let me try this again, since your brain does not comprehend. Try re-reading it a few times if you don't understand. They are Muslim only in the cultural sense of the word. For example, Cenk Ughyur from the Young Turks calls himself a "Muslim agnostic." In other words, culturally he is Muslim, and religiously he is agnostic. This is the same with Jews: in fact, 52% of Jews in America are agnostics or atheists. What does that mean? Do you get what that means? Yes or no?

So yes, the secularists do very much oppress the practicing Muslims in Turkey. 

Your inability to comprehend this again points to your inferior intellect. Do you not know that in Israel there is a Jew vs Jew battle? How hard is that to understand?

----------


## Dinosaur

> They are Muslim only in the cultural sense of the word. For example, Cenk Ughyur from the Young Turks calls himself a "Muslim agnostic." In other words, culturally he is Muslim, and religiously he is agnostic. This is the same with Jews: in fact, 52% of Jews in America are agnostics or atheists. What does that mean? Do you get what that means? Yes or no?
> 
> So yes, the secularists do very much oppress the practicing Muslims in Turkey.



that's what is going on nowadays with the muslim world. well described.

----------


## BuffedGuy

I apologize to NightWolf and Kratos for my anger. Not having a good few days and I guess I'm displacing it on to the forum. I'll try keeping myself in check. 

Peace.

----------


## Matt

> haha, well, whose considered the underdog on this one?


Good lord their still at it lol...

----------


## NightWolf

> If you ask this question, then you have no idea at all about the Islamic theology. Once again, you are completely ignorant. And by completely ignorant, I only mean about when it comes to the Middle East, Islam, and the Muslim world. That's my entire point. You speak on issues that you have no knowledge of.


*Just answer the question o wise one..
Who the fvuk are you to go against gods will?

The palis are lossing the war, and that is gods will is it not?
So if you dont want to offend god, shut your pie hole.*





> Let me try this again, since your brain does not comprehend. Try re-reading it a few times if you don't understand. They are Muslim only in the cultural sense of the word. For example, Cenk Ughyur from the Young Turks calls himself a "Muslim agnostic." In other words, culturally he is Muslim, and religiously he is agnostic. This is the same with Jews: in fact, 52% of Jews in America are agnostics or atheists. What does that mean? Do you get what that means? Yes or no?


*Come on man, how stupid are you? offcourse there is
people in turkey who are only muslims on papper just as
the same with all other countries and religions, but that
does not mean that those "moderate" muslims are hunting
and torturing fanatic muslims as yourself.

For exampel: when you go to turkey they have these high towers
(dont know what they are called) with a big mic at the top
and when its time for muslim prayers someone goes up there and
prays. These towers are built EVERYWERE so that no area at all
can escape the sound that comes out (a turk explained that to us)

These prayers and high sound noise are very irritating
for turists and none belivers, yet they are FORCED to be there
but the muslim powers that rule the country, dont you think
these towers whould be the first things to go before they
start to torture muslims oh wise one? or should i say oh stupid one.

So did your pie brain understand this or not?
yes there is moderate muslims AND fanatic muslims
(such as you) in turkey, NO the fanatics are not
oppressed by the moderate muslims, comprende stupido?*

*I want to note that by "moderate muslims" i mean
lesser, not as strict belivers.*





> Your inability to comprehend this again points to your inferior intellect


*The day my intellect is below a pakistani telephone support line
guy is the day when cows starts flying. How about you get your
head out of your ass and start learning other things about the world
then just islam before you talk about intellect.*

----------


## Kratos

> I apologize to NightWolf and Kratos for my anger. Not having a good few days and I guess I'm displacing it on to the forum. I'll try keeping myself in check. 
> 
> Peace.


It's cool buff, I know you have passion for this stuff.

----------


## Kratos

> "You" put him in power to begin with.


like I said it was a joke
I knew it was a stupid and loaded response to try and lighten things up

----------


## luxifer93



----------


## Kratos

> And I am telling you that you have no right to speak for the Muslims. 
> 
> *You have no more right to speak for all muslims then Puff Daddy has the right to speak for all black people. All I can offer is my opinion which is as valid as yours.
> *
> Yes, in your mind's eye the Muslims are blood-thirsty savages who could only want this and nothing else. 
> 
> *Where do you get this stuff?*
> 
> But unfortunately for you, they have done polls on this matter, and the vast majority of the Muslims and Palestinians want peace with Israel. They do, however, want a fair peace, and what constitutes a fair peace, would be to go back to the 1967 borders or the 1947 ones. This is the general sentiment in the Muslim world.
> ...


I did a poll on you in this thread to see why Israel was important to Muslims, here are some quotes.

Imagine if--during the Cold War--the Soviet Union occupied the entire state of Florida. Do you think Americans would just "let it go"? They would fight tooth and nail for it back. It's not just the land; after all, Florida is a small land mass compared to the rest of America. However, Florida would then become a Soviet base right next door to America. As such, it has geo-political importance. Likewise, Israel is located in the heart of the Middle East, and as such, it has great geo-political importance. 
It took Saladin 200 years to reclaim Jerusalem from the Crusaders. Israel is some 60 years old. The Muslims trust in God, and know that the occupiers will be kicked out, just like the Crusaders were thrown out aforetime.


*We Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad [s] visited Jerusalem in what is known as the Night Journey; this was in reality, and not in his sleep. However, what should be kept in mind is that the Muslims revere many prophets, not just Prophet Muhammad [s]. We revere Prophet Moses [as], who traveled with his tribe to the land of Palestine. We revere Prophet Jesus [as] who was born in the holy land. And there were many other prophets who were sent to that blessed land. Therefore, even if Prophet Muhammad [s] never visited Jerusalem, it would not negate the importance of the city.

There are three special mosques in Islam: one of them is located in Mecca, one in Madeenah, and one in Jerusalem. Prophet Muhammad [s] said:
No (religious) journey should be made except to three mosques: al-Masjid al-Haraam [the Kaba'ah in Mecca], Masjid al-Rasool [the Prophet's Mosque in Madeenah] and Masjid al-Aqsa [in Jerusalem]. (Sahih al-Bukhari)

Throughout the hundreds of years of Islamic rule, Jerusalem has always been considered holy by the Muslims. When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem, the famous Saladin united the entire Muslim world to liberate it, such was the importance of the land.

There are only three holy cities in Islam: Mecca, Madeenah, and Jerusalem. Indeed, the early Muslims faced Jerusalem to pray--not Mecca. The city--and the land surrounding it--is very important to Muslims from a religious perspective. In verse 5:21, the Quran itself calls Jerusalem--and that which surrounds it--as "the holy land." 

hate the leaders put over our heads and the borders imposed upon us by the colonialists that left our lands recently. We need to shake them off, and go back to how things were before the colonial enterprise in our lands."*


What I'm getting at is the two state system doesn't solve any of the issues and will not put a long term end to the fighting. It leaves almost everything important to you in the hands of the Jews doesn't it. How can the Muslim world accept this, and how long will it put a stop to the fighting.

*The Israelis get the majority of the land, whereas the Palestinians would get only the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, whereas the Israelis would get all the better land including West Jerusalem.* 

You state Israelis get the majority and all the better land...doesn't sound like a deal you are truely happy with.

On top of that the Jews have no interest in giving up anything.

Re-read what I quoted from you and then tell me again I don't know what I'm talking about. You want it all not just a peice.

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

> Re-read what I quoted from you and then tell me again I don't know what I'm talking about. You want it all not just a *peice*.


You misspelled "piece"

Holy mother of god, did you even graduate middle school?  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

> Good lord their still at it lol...


haha Its intense isn't it??


Im sitting on the edge of my seat.


lol, I need a life.

----------


## Kratos

Under a two state system how do you know Hamas wouldn't take control of the West bank, just as it controls Gaza?

You said you wanted to go back to 1967 borders but before 1967, Jordan and Egypt were responsible for the West Bank and Gaza. Israel was small and its borders were not very defensible. Israel won't be willing to leave themselves without defensable borders. A Palestinian state controlled by Hamas in the West Bank would create a security situation.

So, the Jews have some justification for their own safty alone.

----------


## Kratos

The two state system may be accepted by many
it is my opinion
Militant muslims will only accept it as a step in the right direction...the right direction being reclamation of all of Israel.

----------


## Kratos

> Kratos, I am not quite sure what mean by saying stopping him...
> as well as the opression thing. could u explain plz.


What I'm saying is he is not forced to drink smoke or party, that is his choice. He has departed from the religion of his own free will, not because someone made him do it.

----------


## BgMc31

Does anyone else find it funny that both sides say Obama cowered to the other? The man can't win for losing!!!

I find it funny that anyone would refer to him as a "liberal scum bag" or a "coward" because he doesn't see their point of view.

I enjoy these debates and have been waiting with baited breath for the upcoming barrages. Please keep it clean fellas. Reminds me of the debates I used to have with Logan about race. Those got heated and very personal. I miss those days! LOL!!!

----------


## Kratos

Iran does not recognise Israel, and Khamenei has repeatedly rejected a two-state solution to solve the Israel-Palestinian issue. Clinton reiterated support for the two-state answer this week. *Khamenei said any negotiations to solve the issue were fruitless, adding that the United States and Britain committed the "crime of creation and supporting this cancerous tumour (Israel).*

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news...d=MzExMjQ4MDc1

----------


## Kratos

> Does anyone else find it funny that both sides say Obama cowered to the other? The man can't win for losing!!!
> 
> I find it funny that anyone would refer to him as a "liberal scum bag" or a "coward" because he doesn't see their point of view.
> 
> I enjoy these debates and have been waiting with baited breath for the upcoming barrages. Please keep it clean fellas. Reminds me of the debates I used to have with Logan about race. Those got heated and very personal. I miss those days! LOL!!!


He's tried to help muslims already, closing gitmo, providing money to relocate refugees to the United States. They aren't moves that made him popular but he's trying and still called a coward.

Blame the black guy lol

----------


## Kratos

“Palestine is Arab Islamic land, from the river to the sea, including Jerusalem.There is no room in it for the Jews.” Group statement from Hamas on the anniversary of the UN Partition Plan vote (November 29, 2007)

----------


## Kratos

"We [aim to liberate] all our lands. If we have the option, we will establish a state on every inch of land within the 1967 [borders], but this does not by any means imply that we will relinquish our right to all the Palestinian lands. We want all of Palestine from [Ras] Naqura to Rafah, and from the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan] river." Mahmoud Al-Zahar Al-Ayyam (October 21, 2006)

----------


## Kratos

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews."
- Abd al-Aziz Rantisi

----------


## Kratos

Israel is a vile entity that has been planted on our soil, and has no historical, religious or cultural legitimacy...."
- Mahmoud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader and former Palestinian foreign minister, October 2006, quoted in Al-Ayyam, Palestinian newspaper.

----------


## Kratos

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine," Hamas statement (March 12, 2007)

----------


## Kratos

So Buff, where is the middle ground?
as you can see Iran, Hamas and radicals are not willing to accept any. 2 state soloution would only be used as a stepping stone, that has been made quite clear in no uncertain terms.

----------


## eliteforce

They (Hamas) may have made all those statements, or their advocates have made those statements, but they have also said that they are willing to observe a a total ceasefire with Israel, permanently, if Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders.

They have also said that [Palestinian President] Abbas can negotiate a final settlement with Israel and they will put any agreement signed up for referendum for The Palestinian people to vote on it, and that they will respect their wishes {this they told Jimmy Carter when he visited the Gaza strip.}

They are currently in negotiations to form a unity government with Abbas.

These statements you posted made by different people at different times reflect extreme political ideals,(and their accuracy or legitimacy is very much in question!) but they are in no way official, what your doing with those statements is akin to quoting some right wing settler's comments or ideas as official Israeli policy since one of their guys is in the ruling coalition. It simply does not work that way, the Palestinians are approached in an official and diplomatic way, like everyone else.. and those comments you posted ARE NOT official policy of Hamas or Fatah-the 2 ruling parties of the Palestinains.

----------


## Kratos

> They (Hamas) may have made all those statements, or their advocates have made those statements, but they have also said that they are willing to observe a a total ceasefire with Israel, permanently, if Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders.
> 
> They have also said that [Palestinian President] Abbas can negotiate a final settlement with Israel and they will put any agreement signed up for referendum for The Palestinian people to vote on it, and that they will respect their wishes {this they told Jimmy Carter when he visited the Gaza strip.}
> 
> They are currently in negotiations to form a unity government with Abbas.
> 
> These statements you posted made by different people at different times reflect extreme political ideals,(and their accuracy or legitimacy is very much in question!) but they are in no way official, what your doing with those statements is akin to quoting some right wing settler's comments or ideas as official Israeli policy since one of their guys is in the ruling coalition. It simply does not work that way, the Palestinians are approached in an official and diplomatic way, like everyone else.. and those comments you posted ARE NOT official policy of Hamas or Fatah-the 2 ruling parties of the Palestinains.


You must be joking right?
Both the United States and European Union concider Hamas to be a terrorist organization who use political activities and violence in pursuit of its goals.
do you even know who the people I quoted are?

for example: Mahmoud Al-Zahar is a co-founder of Hamas and has long pushed the possibility of accepting a *temporary* two-state solution.
Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi also a co-founder
both dead but they haven't been for long, the goals of Hamas have not changed.

You want to negotiate with terrorists, and put them in a position to attain their goal.

I guess next you'll tell me Ali Khamenei is not a person of any importance in Iran. If Iran is unwilling to accept a 2 state condition neither will Hamas. The majority of funds for military activities, around $3 million annually, comes from Iran and that's what's on paper.

I'm speachless, I mean you want me to give credit to the official position of a terrorist organization. Their official goal is one Palestinian state.

----------


## eliteforce

* During the Byzantine empire, Byzanties expell Jews from Palestine and they take refuge in Arab controled parts of middle east, Arab Empire (Islamic Caliphate) conquers Palestine and Jews are allowed to live wherever they want in the Empire.

* The Crusaders arrived in Jerusalem and exterminated the indegenous Jews and Muslims that are there (who were living together in peace), the rest flee to Arab controlled areas, Muslims march back in, do not exterminate Crusaders instead they are given safe passage out, eventually some crusaders stay and others go back to Europe after the crusaders collapsed, Jews are allowed back in to Palestine or are allowed to live where they want.

* The Zionists arrive and massacre and expel Muslims and Christians from Palestine, 1948, 1967. The ones that remain are forced to live in bantustans. 

Seems like the conflict always breaks down along racial lines, considering those Jews in the Byzantine and Crusader era were middle eastern, the Byzantine Empire was the eastern part of the old Roman Empire and christian, the Crusaders were mostly from western Europe and Britain, the Zionists were predominantly western or caucasian in ethnicity and the zionist movement was started in western Europe..

Where were the "Judeo-Christians" back then?





> Umm, no. Historically, the Muslims were the ones who invited Jews to live in their lands. I've already established this. For HUNDREDS of years, Muslims allowed Jews in their lands, and Jews fled to Muslim lands for refuge. And great thanks do the Zionist Jews give by expelling the Muslims from Palestine. Think of how amazing this is: we are the ones who kept allowing them back, time and time again. But the minute they got control, they expelled millions of Palestinians, and denied them the Right of Return. We gave them the right of return; they did not give us this, and they continue to deny it.
> 
> With regards to Anti-Semitism in Muslim world, it's no less than the anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment in Israel. Do you deny this? Do you know how Arabs and Muslims are treated in Jewish Israel? Worse than dogs. 
> 
> So please explain why you are trying to vilify the Muslims when a worse situation exists in the Jewish Israel?

----------


## Kratos

> * During the Byzantine empire, Byzanties expell Jews from Palestine and they take refuge in Arab controled parts of middle east, Arab Empire (Islamic Caliphate) conquers Palestine and Jews are allowed to live wherever they want in the Empire.
> 
> * The Crusaders arrived in Jerusalem and exterminated the indegenous Jews and Muslims that are there (who were living together in peace), the rest flee to Arab controlled areas, Muslims march back in, do not exterminate Crusaders instead they are given safe passage out, eventually some crusaders stay and others go back to Europe after the crusaders collapsed, Jews are allowed back in to Palestine or are allowed to live where they want.
> 
> * The Zionists arrive and massacre and expel Muslims and Christians from Palestine, 1948, 1967. The ones that remain are forced to live in bantustans. 
> 
> Seems like the conflict always breaks down along racial lines, considering those Jews in the Byzantine and Crusader era were middle eastern, the Byzantine Empire was the eastern part of the old Roman Empire and christian, the Crusaders were mostly from western Europe and Britain, the Zionists were predominantly western or caucasian in ethnicity and the zionist movement was started in western Europe..
> 
> Where were the "Judeo-Christians" back then?


So you're saying it's a white thing?

----------


## eliteforce

Israel and the United States are also "terrorist organizations" , or they are "a fascist imperialist organization", or they are "crusader enities with no legitimate claims" so there, anyone can name call and make labels.

The only thing that matters is if they will respect a cease fire so that Israel can withdraw from the territory and dismantle apartheid settlements, if Hamas and other militant groups blow up a bus in telaviv as soon as they are gone, well it takes Israel about 2 days and a few casualties to re invade those areas .. Israel has 2 options, apartheid which makes it an illegitimate regime or simply getting out of these areas=giving the Palestinians room and incentive to turn toward more moderate political figures like Marwan Barguoti and other Fatah leaders.. Occupation, aphartied and oppression boosts equally extreme politics on the other side of the fence. 




> You must be joking right?
> You want to negotiate with terrorists, and put them in a position to attain their goal.
> 
> I guess next you'll tell me Ali Khamenei is not a person of any importance in Iran. If Iran is unwilling to accept a 2 state condition neither will Hamas. The majority of funds for military activities, around $3 million annually, comes from Iran and that's what's on paper.
> 
> I'm speachless, I mean you want me to give credit to the official position of a terrorist organization. Their official goal is one Palestinian state.

----------


## eliteforce

Not totally but it's more of this western desire to control this "precious" religious area.. or maybe they think it's a strategic thing.. but the consistency is clearly there to observe and the current conflict needs to be put in perspective.




> So you're saying it's a white thing?

----------


## Kratos

> Israel and the United States are also "terrorist organizations" , or they are "a fascist imperialist organization", or they are "crusader enities with no legitimate claims" so there, anyone can name call and make labels.
> 
> The only thing that matters is if they will respect a cease fire so that Israel can withdraw from the territory and dismantle apartheid settlements, if Hamas and other militant groups blow up a bus in telaviv as soon as they are gone, well it takes Israel about 2 days and a few casualties to re invade those areas .. Israel has 2 options, apartheid which makes it an illegitimate regime or simply getting out of these areas=giving the Palestinians room and incentive to turn toward more moderate political figures like Marwan Barguoti and other Fatah leaders.. Occupation, aphartied and oppression boosts equally extreme politics on the other side of the fence.


Sure, what's in a name I guess.

Do you really think they would ever be so short sited as to blow up a bus? No, the peace will last for years and as I stated before Israel will be made indefensable. Exteme politics are too deep rooted to expect a culural shift.

Give up your ability to defend yourself in hopes that your enemy won't destroy you? Is that how the "elite forces" operate?

----------


## Kratos

> Not totally but it's more of this western desire to control this "precious" religious area.. or maybe they think it's a strategic thing.. but the consistency is clearly there to observe and the current conflict needs to be put in perspective.


Well then maybe than the consistancy is equally clear that Jews were all well and good with Arabs as long as they were brown right?

----------


## eliteforce

They're "not giving up the ability to defend themselves" this is a transparent excuse for continued apartheid and occupation. On one side of the WB is Jordan, a country that has been most cooperative on security obligations since it signed a peace treaty with Israel in the 1990's and even before that. The WB itself will not have an army with tanks, artillery, or warplanes (demilitarized) and Israels military remains more than capable and they have nuclear weapons, the notion of a conventional Arab invasion, _after_ a deal is made is fanciful. In fact a comprehensive deal will likely move Syrian artillery and military forces further away from Israel than they are now, Syria is the only remaining conventional military threat to Israel, with the Egyptian Army removed from the Sinai ..and none of this was a problem in 1967? so just what the hell are you talking about?

What you people are talking about is a demographic threat, that if Israel is gives Palestinians freedom of movement, and freedom in general the jewish state thing will eventually collapse as the result of Palestinians flooding in thru east Jerusalem or something like that, but that's a police issue to make sure day laborers go home, and that never happened in the 1970s 80s or 90s when infiltration into Israel was relatively easy.. the "extreme politics" in Palestinian society clearly increased as Israel increased repression, particularly jewish only colonies and roads and military checkpoints and all kinds of restrictions on who and why someone can travel just to another town in the west bank or Jerusalem . and Gaza-where there is the most anger, has been cut off from both israel and the west bank for 60 years.






> Sure, what's in a name I guess.
> 
> Do you really think they would ever be so short sited as to blow up a bus? No, the peace will last for years and as I stated before Israel will be made indefensable. Exteme politics are too deep rooted to expect a culural shift.
> 
> Give up your ability to defend yourself in hopes that your enemy won't destroy you? Is that how the "elite forces" operate?

----------


## eliteforce

There was not a conflict between Jews and Muslims in the middle east, yes they are both predominantly dark skinned. There was a conflict between predominantly caucasian (ashkanazi) Jews in Europe with other Europeans, so those Jews with alot of western support invented this idea of a Jewish 'safe-haven' in Palestine, "and then we'll just sweep these arabs under the rug and no one will notice.." this was all during S.Africa, Rhodesia, British India, and French Indochina days where it was thought that you wouldn't get that much resistance from the developing world.. it was a miscalculation in the late 1940s. 




> Well then maybe than the consistancy is equally clear that Jews were all well and good with Arabs as long as they were brown right?

----------


## Kratos

> On one side of the WB is Jordan, a country that has been most cooperative on security obligations since it signed a peace treaty with Israel in the 1990's and even before that. 
> 
> *So, the Israel's should count on Jordan for it's national security...forever? A nation they have only had a peace agreement with since 1994. The peace agreement with Jordan can end up being broken for any reasons that come up down the line. If for any reason tensions heat up or the political climate in Jordan changes, what happens to Israel?
> http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...2-28-voa26.cfm*
> 
> 
> The WB itself will not have an army with tanks, artillery, or warplanes (demilitarized) 
> 
> *That's not to say it won't become filled with guns, militants and terrorists under a weak gvmt of Palistine. Israel would loose all rights to use military force in this region without being attacked first.*
> ...


Clearly this is not a real soloution for long term peace in the region. It serves only serves one side and will not satisfy the other.

----------


## Kratos

> There was not a conflict between Jews and Muslims in the middle east, yes they are both predominantly dark skinned. There was a conflict between predominantly caucasian (ashkanazi) Jews in Europe with other Europeans, so those Jews with alot of western support invented this idea of a Jewish 'safe-haven' in Palestine, "and then we'll just sweep these arabs under the rug and no one will notice.." this was all during S.Africa, Rhodesia, British India, and French Indochina days where it was thought that you wouldn't get that much resistance from the developing world.. it was a miscalculation in the late 1940s.


Wow, I'm amazed you managed to quote me on something completly change the subject. A simple you can't have it both ways statement, and you somehow managed to fabricate a point that ends in blaming white people.

Should I even bother to answer your posts as having anything of value? So far they have not been too profound.

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## eliteforce

OK so basically your against peace, any peace deal, against a Palestinian state and pro aphartied, you support a system where Palestinians are second and third calss citizens based on trumped up security threats.. there no difference between you and your settlers friends and the KUKluxKlan(extreme elements of it anyways, as most KKK groups only wanted segregation, not aphartied), the white-only governments in S Africa or Rhodesia-both of which referred to their indigenous oppositions as security threats or as a communist threat, tying them into a web of global conquest like the 'reds'. You do that with the Islamic thing.

Your basically saying that Israel is inherently oppressive and that it can never be based on equal rights in a 1 state solution (because then it would become a bi national state or a 'greater' Palestine, OR in a 2 state solution, you think you are making an argument for it's existence but in reality you making an argument for it's abolition, since most people in the world would come to the conclusion that it should faze in the bi-national plan given your "security-reality". 

You also said: 
*"Israel would loose all rights to use military force in this region without being attacked first."*
in response to me saying that if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders and Hamas blew up a bus in telaviv anyways-then they could always easily re-invade the territory..what you said is hubris--Israel would face limited int outcry for marching back in and the Palestinians would KNOW that is the consequence and they would have a big incentive not to push their luck.. I believe they are capable of 100% cessation of violence in the event of the 1967 border pullback and they say they're ready to deliver so they should atleast be given a chance considering all that they have suffered.
If Israel invades another country without being attacked first then they will face pressure to resolve whatever issue they are complaining about peacefully, like water or whatever..same like every other country.

You also appear to say that in the 60's 70's 80's and 90s the occupation didn't exist :Hmmmm: 
more nonsense or acting like you don't know what the occupation is, or that occupation is a meta-physical thing..it's not really there.. The Palestinians had everything they needed back then..so what if they're banned from using roads, or that their farm land is taken away to build a settlement or that their house is demolished or that they have no representation or rights.

There is no reason to think that the daily permit system, will cause violence because daily workers have to go home to where they live at night after they finish their day trip to work, shop, or do business..they have this system all over the world in neighboring countries...thats what you said near that :2nono:  you posted.

hmm what else..oh black people in america may not have forgiven and forgotten everything, but once treaty as equal citizens they did not pursue a MalcomeX or black panther strategy for their remaining issues.. had the US responded to their civil rights movement with apartheid and KKK attacks then it would have radicalized them and they would have responded with more rioting and terrorist attacks-- believe, if pushed, anyone will do it, not just arabs ..

ok and the last thing :Icon Sleepy:  .. 

I am proposing the 1967 border, the internationally recognized border, the border that israel is supposed to withdraw to according to binding security council resolution 242,338.. that is " 'more' borders not 'less' ".. you are trying to cloud the issue.. Israel existed fine from 1948-1967 with that border and NEVER was it's existence threatened..yet you claim it just so dangerous.. 
last item, per the Egyptian peace treaty, Egypts forces are moved back, israel's are allowed anywhere near the border(because israel is the smaller country)..for the Syrian track, a similar arrangement can be negotiated leaving the Syrian army away from the border.

----------


## Kratos

> OK so basically your against peace, any peace deal, against a Palestinian state and pro aphartied
> 
> *The concept of calling Israel an apartheid has been controversal to begin with...but I guess if you want to go with the technical definition of apartheid one does exsist. To compare Israel to South Africa is a radical standpoint, not that I don't know where you stand. I'm saying a 2 state soloution doesn't end an apartheid by your definition, hate for Israel will continue to perpetuate in the Arab world. Races will be divided among borders and those borders will eventually be breached.*
> 
> , you support a system where Palestinians are second and third calss citizens based on trumped up security threats.. 
> 
> *Maybe you could define palestinians for me.*
> 
> there no difference between you and your settlers friends and the KUKluxKlan(extreme elements of it anyways, as most KKK groups only wanted segregation, not aphartied), 
> ...


You are minimizing any Muslim agression on Israel...they do not accept this state in any form.

Arab tensions did not begin post 1967
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_man...ts_1920-21.php

PLO and Fateh were founded prior in 1964 with the aim of "liberating" "Palestine" - that is, destroying Israel
Fatah's first major guerrilla attack came on January 3, 1965, when they attempted to sabotage the Israeli National Water Carrier, which had recently started operation.

Don't tell me Muslims were happy with 1967 borders.

----------


## Kratos

I'm sorry for being worse than a member of the KKK


for knowing this won't work

----------


## Kratos

What are the consequenses for Jordan should the West bank be under Palestinian control?
Jordan wishs to remain quarantined from playing any future role in the West Bank.

In the 1970s several peace plans for Israel and the Palestinians were proposed that would have put Jordan in control of the West Bank, but these were rejected by Yasser Arafat who wanted an independent state.

Hamas could be a major threat to Jordan should they rise in the West bank.

http://www.jesuslives.co.za/2008/06/...-hamas-threat/

*"Since Israel's unilateral withdrawal, Gaza has degenerated into chaos, and unemployment rates have exceeded 50 percent. Many West Bank Palestinians worry that if the current chaos and lawlessness continue there, and if the Israelis withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza may be their future.


"The breakdown of law-and-order in Gaza and Palestinian areas of the West Bank compounds the problem. While Gaza cannot pose an immediate security threat to Jordan, the West Bank can. Jordanian assessments oppose any Gaza-style Israeli unilateral disengagement from the West Bank for fear that warlords, jihadists, and armed militias would fill the resulting security vacuum."*

http://www.meforum.org/923/re-energi...ordan-********

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=vi...&report_id=525


The breakdown of law-and-order in Gaza and Palestinian areas of the West Bank compounds the problem. While Gaza cannot pose an immediate security threat to Jordan, the West Bank can. Jordanian assessments oppose any Gaza-style Israeli unilateral disengagement from the West Bank for fear that warlords, jihadists, and armed militias would fill the resulting security vacuum.[
How do you contend with millions of former Arab residents and their descendants calling to be allowed to settle in Israel? Isn't this what caused President Clinton's Camp David negotiations crashing to the ground in 2000.
I don't see how you can even try to argue Israel could survive the Arab anger, condemnation and retribution that would inevitably follow should they not be allowd to return.

----------


## eliteforce

well in 1948 Israel drove out 800,000 Palestinians in order to create their jewish state, I didn't say there weren't tensions or that Israel had been accepted in the middle east at that time; but in that period, if there was a cross border attack from the Palestinian side, Israel would kill many more Palestinians, so it wasn't a huge problem for them and Israel had much less terrorist attacks at that time, then in the period post 1967..

and we're not talking about getting a deal then, we're talking about getting one now, the situation then was 50 years ago .. most people weren't even born yet so attitudes and the politics of then is history.

Jordan supports the 2002 arab peace initiative, they have given up claims to the west bank and would like to see a Palestinian state there with gaza, they have done everything they can to prod the 2 sides into final status talks.

The reason the 2000 talks failed was because of final borders, not refugees-Israel wanted too many restrictions and settlements to remain creating something that wasn't a real state or continuous territory. That was the opinion of Israels lead negotiator at the time Yossi Beilen (that the talks broke down because of borders, and that they were working to get to an aggreeable border at taba when Israeli PM Barak terminated the negotiation) but even if that is disputed-Israel and the US broke off those talks at camp david and taba and Israel refuses to get back to them, to work out the issues they have to put them on the table.

Also Israeli(opposition parties) and Palestinian negotiators came back and made mock negotiations - the Geneva Accords, just to show that it could be done and the Palestinian fatah negotiators are capable of negotiating realistically.

----------


## Kratos

The idea I can't bring intelligent opposition to the viability of a two state system, because I'm white, is in fact racist.

I have answered every one of your points in detail as stupid as most of them were for the simple reason that if I don't I grant you credibility, and any lack of ability for me to justify myself makes me look racist. Only thing is mulims can spew absoloute garbage with their only justification being their opression has created this situation and attitudes will change after compermise.

You say yourself Jews have been in the Middle East for a long time.
They can't exist in any country other than Israel in the middle east at this time.
The dead sea scrolls found in Israel pre-date your entire religion by at least 700 years...so clearly Jews have been in the middle east LONGER than Muslims.

What I support is not Muslim persecution but the rights of a people to continue to exist, a right not supported by a large part of the Muslim world.

----------


## Kratos

> Israel had much less terrorist attacks at that time, then in the period post 1967..
> 
> and we're not talking about getting a deal then, we're talking about getting one now, the situation then was 50 years ago .. most people weren't even born yet so attitudes and the politics of then is history.
> 
> *Clearly Israel sees more terrorist attacks now than pre 1967 because attitudes about the existance of Israel have improved. C'mon, it's gotten worse because Israel is at least as equally hated.*J
> 
> Jordan supports the 2002 arab peace initiative, they have given up claims to the west bank and would like to see a Palestinian state there with gaza, they have done everything they can to prod the 2 sides into final status talks.
> 
> *Jordan does not support or desire to see the West bank as part of a Palestinian state, and I went to the trouble to go into great detail for you why. THey gave up claims to the west bank in 1988 in response to the accumulated pressures and the months of intifada demonstrations by Palestinians in the West Bank.
> ...


more responses to what you post what seems out of thin air, but that's ok because you aren't white.

----------


## eliteforce

I ever said you ..... because your white...
I'm not a muslim..did i say I was a muslim.. most of the people that are involved in the Palestine solidarity movement outside the middle east - Annie Lennox, Venessa Redgrave, etc. are white people, there are liberal jewish groups that support it, they are white people .. your trying to make it sound like all activists are muslim and all white people support netanyahoo.

Jews have been in the ME a long time, there were Palestinian Jews there before the first zionists showed up from europe, back then they called themselves "Palestinians" , Muslims, Jews, and Christians were all living there and calling themselves palestinains, and they never killed each other..

..BUT the majority of Israelis are [relatively] recent immigrants and a Palestinian was born there and his parents were born in Palestine, and their parents were and theirs and theirs..they don't trace their roots all over the place, you can't deny that the Palestinians are indigenous-that means equal claims.

And Alan Dershowitz is wrong, he was never at those negotiations.. and if clinton said that, then he is wrong because Yossi Beilen said otherwise and he _was_ directly involved.. ofcource everyone would like to blame the other guy for the failure......they can get back to the table to see where the problems are..

----------


## Kratos

> I ever said you ..... because your white...
> I'm not a muslim..did i say I was a muslim.. most of the people that are involved in the Palestine solidarity movement outside the middle east - Annie Lennox, Venessa Redgrave, etc. are white people, there are liberal jewish groups that support it, they are white people .. your trying to make it sound like all activists are muslim and all white people support netanyahoo.
> 
> Jews have been in the ME a long time, there were Palestinian Jews there before the first zionists showed up from europe, back then they called themselves "Palestinians" , Muslims, Jews, and Christians were all living there and calling themselves palestinains, and they never killed each other..
> 
> ..BUT the majority of Israelis are [relatively] recent immigrants and a Palestinian was born there and his parents were born in Palestine, and their parents were and theirs and theirs..they don't trace their roots all over the place, you can't deny that the Palestinians are indigenous-that means equal claims.
> 
> And Alan Dershowitz is wrong, he was never at those negotiations.. and if clinton said that, then he is wrong because Yossi Beilen said otherwise and he _was_ directly involved.. ofcource everyone would like to blame the other guy for the failure......they can get back to the table to see where the problems are..



You made a big deal about skin color vs western support and I took offense to that. I understand there are many feelings of descrimination among people of color but I see that as a position of non intelligence that military action of the US is based on skin color.


Dershowitz was quoting Clinton. I'd say Clinton is a better source than anyone else prepared to comment on the subject.

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## Kratos

The current stance of the Fateh is that they are honestly negotiating for a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but that that state is a springboard for the secular democratic state: 

"To us, the refugees issue is the winning card which means the end of the Israeli state.... 

...The transitory solution of the refugees issue in the future is through confederation with Jordan. I visualize the future in establishing a democratic state by peaceful means. This will come true when the Zionist illusion comes to an end, the thing that has begun to occur in the Labor Party and Merits."

The leader of Fatah, Farouk Kaddoumi, said not long ago that a Palestinian state in 1967 borders is only the first stage to liberating all of historical Palestine.

----------


## Kratos

1967 borders include jews giving up
The Old city of Jerusalem, including the Wailing Wall and the Jewish Quarter, as well as the Hebrew University.

----------


## eliteforce

My original comment about 'western people' was just to put the conflict in perspective- that this conflict is similar to other religious claims placed on the levant by western powers throughout history.. so lets not keep calling them 'religious fanatics' when we're also planting our religious flag on this old pile of rocks .. i wasn't trying to say that white people are racists ..and i'll say again, most of the Palestinian activism outside the middle east is done by white people (western europeans and americans), not chinese,japanese, south koreans or south Africans or south americans.. but the governments in those non-european,american countries generally have a more pro-palestinian position.

in the taba negotiations, geneva mock negotiations, israel keeps control of the jewish quarter and wailing wall.. and that area is only a few meters away from the 1967 borders, i'm not sure of the location of hebrew university but it can fall under P. control and the israeli students can take a day pass to go there..and sure something like central hebron is a jewish religious site, but it has to be in the Palestinian state, talking about religious fanaticism...

and again your quoting a bunch of people that may have said something bad....i'm not gonna sit here and quote all the things that natanyahoo or lieberman said, if they're ready to get to final negotiations-thats what matters ..the problem is they are not, that they are against ending the occupation.

----------


## NightWolf

Eliteforce, In all honestly do you belive that the
Palis really want to live in peace with the Jews?
Dont you think if they had the same equal power
or even greater, that they would wipe out the jews
in 1 week?

The problem here is that the Palis main goal is to
KILL and ELIMINATE the jews from israel. Only reason
they have not done so yet is because they are not in
a position to do so (YET).

I mean how could the Palis wanna live side by side
with the jew when there is MASSIVE brainwashing
of the palestinian children to HATE and KILL all jews.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1mav...eature=related


Obviously from the video that is not the path
of peace, rather the path of destruction.

----------


## Kratos

> My original comment about 'western people' was just to put the conflict in perspective- that this conflict is similar to other religious claims placed on the levant by western powers throughout history.. 
> 
> 
> 
> .



How about we really put the conflict into perspective.
Your idea of history has little to do with reality, and only suits your needs.
The Western world had little to do with the creation of Israel.

I'm going to go into great deatil for you and we'll see if you can understand it.

Zionism began in 200AD
Throughout the Amoraic period, many Babylonian Jews immigrated to Israel.

In the 10th century, leaders of the Karaite Jewish community, mostly living under Persian rule, urged their followers to settle in Eretz Yisrael. 

Thousands of Jews from countries as widely spaced as Persia and Morocco, Yemen and Russia, who moved to Israel beginning in the first decade of the nineteenth century all drawn by the expectation of the arrivval of the Messiah in the Jewish year 5600, English year 1840.

Between 1882 and 1***, approximately 35,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine. The majority came from the Russian Empire with a smaller number arriving from Yemen.

Between 1904 and 1914, 40,000 Jews immigrated mainly from Russia to Palestine.

The new arrivals faced extremely harsh condition.
The attitude of the Ottoman administration was hostile and oppressive anyone who says otherwise has no unbias perspective.
Communications and transportation were rudimentary and insecure; swamps bred deadly malaria; and the soil had suffered from centuries of neglect.

In 1909 they began to form self defense organizations to counter increasing Arab hostility and to help Jews to protect their communities from Arab bandits. It was prior to 1914 that Jews came up with the idea on there own of creating an idependant Jewish state.

It was only after this point the western world had any involvment in Israel.

1919 and 1923, 40,000 Jews, mainly from the Russian Empire arrived in the wake of World War I.

The Ottoman Empire, at the urging of their German ally, chose to attack British and Egyptian forces in Egypt and shut the Suez Canal.
Britian was forced into war with the Ottoman empire. The empire had to be broken up post WWI.

British forces were in Palistine as a result of a world war, not conquest of world domination. Despite Britians efforts to establish immigration quotas of Jews many Jews escaped Nazi Germany to Israel. The second world war ended, the Arab nations were wanting to be independent and Britian desired to leave the region free from conflict.

The British tried to work out an agreement acceptable to both Arabs and Jews but failed, so they turned the issue over to the UN.

"The Jews of Palestine were not satisfied with the small territory allotted to them by the Commission, nor were they happy that Jerusalem was severed from the Jewish State; nevertheless, they welcomed the compromise. The Arabs rejected the UNSCOP's recommendations.

Further complicating the situation was the UN majority's insistence that Jerusalem remain apart from both states and be administered as an international zone. This arrangement left more than 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem isolated from their country and circumscribed by the Arab state.

Critics claim the UN gave the Jews fertile land while the Arabs were allotted hilly, arid land. This is untrue. Approximately 60 percent of the Jewish state was to be the arid desert in the Negev.

The UN majority insisted that Jerusalem remain apart from both states and be administered as an international zone.

(map in case you want to see what the UN was calling for)

After the UN announcement the Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots. 

The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country."

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine.

In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947 until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties.

On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council:

Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.8

"On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered."

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:

"The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight."

The United States, the Soviet Union and most other states immediately recognized Israel and indicted the Arabs. A cese fire was brokered but that was about the only assistance they received.

The State Department did not want to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves. The Jews, on the other hand, were forced to smuggle weapons, principally from Czechoslovakia. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes.

The Arab war to destroy Israel failed. Indeed, because of their aggression, the Arabs wound up with less territory than they would have had if they had accepted partition.

Arab agression post 1948 continued and is the only reason for yet still increased borders, not the west.

*Israel was created out of a race war between Arabs and immigrants.*

Get a clue of history, the west only was involved to create peace in a race war and if you can find another evidence of motive I'd love for you to try and present facts.

I'm sorry Muslims and Immigrants couldn't live together in peace and blaming the west is easy for this culture, but that isn't our fault.

Prior to 1948 the Arab resentment of Jews erupted in periods of intense violence (1920, 1921, 1929, 1936-39), when unprovoked attacks were launched against the Jewish population, including the Hebron Massacre of 1929, as well as the harassment of Jewish transport, and the burning of fields and forests. There were no refugees at this time, no Arabs displaced, and no Jewish state. The British Mandate authorities granted the Jewish and Arab communities the right to run their own internal affairs and had no influence on this conflict.

I'm amazed how history is twisted, people can be brainwashed, and their inability to seak the truth. Racism created Israel not the west.

----------


## Kratos

> and again your quoting a bunch of people that may have said something bad....i'm not gonna sit here and quote all the things that natanyahoo or lieberman said, if they're ready to get to final negotiations-thats what matters ..the problem is they are not, that they are against ending the occupation.


I'm quoting a bunch of people who are saying something bad, because they are the people who assume control. I don't see how it isn't critical.

How I have not raised enough doubts by now for you to see flaws is amazing to me. Clearly any reasonable person can see problems down the road, and that's probably why at this point you are the only one left speaking up.

----------


## Kratos

> israeli students can take a day pass to go there..and sure something like central hebron is a jewish religious site, but it has to be in the Palestinian state, talking about religious fanaticism...
> .


Historically when the Arabs have controlled Jewish religious sites they have been desicrated as I went into that regarding Israel earlier in this thread. Muslim sites have been completely respected by the Jews thus far.

----------


## Kratos

> There was a conflict between predominantly caucasian (ashkanazi) Jews in Europe with other Europeans, so those Jews with alot of western support invented this idea of a Jewish 'safe-haven' in Palestine, "and then we'll just sweep these arabs under the rug and no one will notice.." .


Now that I told you what happend do you still think this is an intelligent statement?

----------


## Kratos

what has the United States ever done except try to find a soloution that doesn't result in massacre? They pledge aid to Israel because that is the side at a gross disadvantage, not skin color. Millions would die the instant we step aside and is there even an arguement to the contrary? If a peace deal can't be made, that's why that statue quo has continued so long.

----------


## Kratos

I'd hate to see what happens if the US forces Israel into a peace deal that can not be respected through threat of aid withdraw. As terrorism and our current position of unpopularity in the muslim wold decreaces popularity for our position in Israel, politicians are putting increasing pressure on Israel make a deal with a proverbal gun to their head. The politicans want to end conflict for public approval. Israel is forced to rest some hope on the US military stabilizing any deal they broker. It could provoke a major war resulting in massive Arab casualties, as the US will have a sense of obligation and guilt to Israel if a deal doesn't work.

Can you see down the line at the fallout potential...I doubt it since you can't see past the propaganda in the first place. But, this is a major reason why I care... American lifes, disruption of world peace, further justification for terrorism against the United States.

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## Kratos

> ..and i'll say again, most of the Palestinian activism outside the middle east is done by white people (western europeans and americans), not chinese,japanese, south koreans or south Africans or south americans.. but the governments in those non-european,american countries generally have a more pro-palestinian position.
> .


They don't want to get involved...why the hell would they? Look at all the troube it causes the Untied States to save these couple million lives, and we're already there so as far as the perpective of the rest of the world the problem is solved. It was a failed treaty of United Nations that forced our support, do to Arab disrespect of the declaration, not a problem for those nations.

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