# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  US Healthcare Bill passed

## Flagg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8348948.stm

Wow, there was 5 votes in it! 

I can imagine that there are going to be Republicans here practically frothing at the mouth!

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## Panzerfaust

I didn't doubt for a second that it wouldn't pass.

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## TITANIUM

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8348948.stm
> 
> Wow, there was 5 votes in it! 
> 
> I can imagine that there are going to be Republicans here practically frothing at the mouth!


I am not a Republican, per say.

But I am foaming at the mouth!!!!!

Maybe I should have had that rabbies vaccination after all.

This country is fvcked up.

God dam politicians.

Bunch of trial lawyers gone selling there political bullshit and hidden agendas.

Only about 2,000 pages to this reform.

I'm sure everyone read all of it.

Like the Fvcing Patriot Act!

I just realized I'm on a rant....................

Best

T

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## BgMc31

As the only industrialized country in the world without universal healthcare, I feel it's about time!

Now, I'm sure there are parts of this bill that I don't agree with. I also know that it's probably not a perfect bill, but it is absolutely necessary because the cost of no healthcare reform is going to bankrupt us. The republicans had 8 actually 12 yrs to do something about healthcare reform but chose to stay in bed with the insurance companies. But they didn't. Even still if they would offer a valid alternative instead of just saying no to everything, they may have gotten something that they wanted. But again, they didn't. Polls overwhelming show that the public is in favor of some sort of universal healthcare. 

I know that this is just another thing we'll disagree on, T. But that's what we are here for, right? Let's see how long it will stay civil.

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## MuscleScience

The way I see it the government is going to find another way to tax the hell out of me even if healthcare reform is not passed. So we might as well have healthcare for all if thats the case.

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## BgMc31

> The way I see it the government is going to find another way to tax the hell out of me even if healthcare reform is not passed. So we might as well have healthcare for all if thats the case.


OMG, Musclscience, I can't believe you said that...LOL!!!! I agree with you 100%

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## TITANIUM

> As the only industrialized country in the world without universal healthcare, I feel it's about time!
> 
> Now, I'm sure there are parts of this bill that I don't agree with. I also know that it's probably not a perfect bill, but it is absolutely necessary because the cost of no healthcare reform is going to bankrupt us. The republicans had 8 actually 12 yrs to do something about healthcare reform but chose to stay in bed with the insurance companies. But they didn't. Even still if they would offer a valid alternative instead of just saying no to everything, they may have gotten something that they wanted. But again, they didn't. Polls overwhelming show that the public is in favor of some sort of universal healthcare. 
> 
> I know that this is just another thing we'll disagree on, T. But that's what we are here for, right? Let's see how long it will stay civil.


No, I am not disagreeing with you at all.

I agree that universal health care reform is indeed a solid idea.

It's just that I don't trust the government as of late.

And it's the fvcking republicans also.

It's just myself on a rant.

It's very convoluted BgMc, you have to agree.

It will take years to see what comes of this after the dust settles.

We shall see.



On another note, how ya been doing?

Long time it seems since we have spoken.

As usuall, some interesting things have been developing here in the news.

I try to stay out of the lounge, for the most part.

Mostly idiotic stuff going on in there, but it is the lounge after all.

(yes, I did post in there tonight, got a PM that HD trashed his 3rd vehicle, so I could not resist!!LOL)

Best

T

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## TITANIUM

> The way I see it the government is going to find another way to tax the hell out of me even if healthcare reform is not passed. So we might as well have healthcare for all if thats the case.


You got that one right bro!

Cut right to the chase on that.

I'll watch my pay stubs in the following months.

Best

T

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## PistolPete33

It's a $1.2 TRILLION TRILLION TRILLION dollar increase in our taxes??? Where the "F" are we going to come up with this money? They already proved it will make our rates TRIPPLE over the next several years. How is this helping anyone???

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## Flagg

Well this still has to be passed through the Senate before it becomes official, right? And I can see the Republicans stopping this on pure partisanship alone, I mean wasn't there only ONE republican that voted the Bill in?

Personally I don't think Universal Healthcare is the great evil so many pretend it is, I mean its amazing how words like "socialism", "communism" will fill the average American with dread, yet they have no idea what the words mean, much less able to spell them. Universal Healthcare works for the rest of the G8 and Europe is NOT some quasi-soviet association of states, nor is America about to become one.

The only gripe is, Obama is pushing this too soon. You'd thinking sorting out the Economy, the borrowing and the vast somes of money spent on the two pointless wars in the Middle East would be top priority.

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## TITANIUM

Can you say,"CASHARECTOMY"!!!

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## MuscleScience

> Well this still has to be passed through the Senate before it becomes official, right? And I can see the Republicans stopping this on pure partisanship alone, I mean wasn't there only ONE republican that voted the Bill in?
> 
> Personally I don't think Universal Healthcare is the great evil so many pretend it is, I mean its amazing how words like "socialism", "communism" will fill the average American with dread, yet they have no idea what the words mean, much less able to spell them. Universal Healthcare works for the rest of the G8 and Europe is NOT some quasi-soviet association of states, nor is America about to become one.
> 
> The only gripe is, Obama is pushing this too soon. You'd thinking sorting out the Economy, the borrowing and the vast somes of money spent on the two pointless wars in the Middle East would be top priority.


America difference from Europe in the fact that we have 300+ million people and about 11-20 million do not pay federal income tax (illegal immigrants). If we get a public option for all, that number of those that do not pay income tax will more than likely go up. We simple can not morally or practically exclude anyone from coverage regardless of legal status. Will it bankrupt the US, no. We are already bankrupt, another way of looking at it is that China is footing a lot of the bill for us.

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## thegodfather

> Well this still has to be passed through the Senate before it becomes official, right? And I can see the Republicans stopping this on pure partisanship alone, I mean wasn't there only ONE republican that voted the Bill in?
> 
> Personally I don't think Universal Healthcare is the great evil so many pretend it is, I mean its amazing how words like "socialism", "communism" will fill the average American with dread, yet they have no idea what the words mean, much less able to spell them. Universal Healthcare works for the rest of the G8 and Europe is NOT some quasi-soviet association of states, nor is America about to become one.
> 
> The only gripe is, Obama is pushing this too soon. You'd thinking sorting out the Economy, the borrowing and the vast somes of money spent on the two pointless wars in the Middle East would be top priority.



Universal health care is much more disastrous than you tend to think. I am not going to write a book because I always feel I have to explain so much. But when government takes over any private sector enterprise, there is an undeniable outcome.. *QUALITY GOES DOWN AND COSTS GO UP.*  There are more MRI machines in Pittsburgh than in the entire country of England. In England, there are more administrators than practitioners by a factor of 3:1. It is a hugely wasteful, inefficient, ineffective system with poorer outcomes than the United States. I will leave it at that for now.

P.S.- the same bureaucrats who have been running the bankrupt businesses of Amtrak and the US Postal Service, have been running both as bankrupt businesses, at a deficit, EVERY SINGLE YEAR of their existence under government control. FedEx and UPS are quite profitable businesses. I think that speaks volume about government running anything, especially something as vital as health care.

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## Flagg

> It's a $1.2 TRILLION TRILLION TRILLION dollar increase in our taxes??? Where the "F" are we going to come up with this money? They already proved it will make our rates TRIPPLE over the next several years. How is this helping anyone???



Yeah but isn't that 1.2 trillion over a 10 year period? Considering the US spends half that amount every year on Defence, i'd say that was affordable for you guys.

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## Flagg

> Universal health care is much more disastrous than you tend to think. I am not going to write a book because I always feel I have to explain so much. But when government takes over any private sector enterprise, there is an undeniable outcome.. *QUALITY GOES DOWN AND COSTS GO UP.*  There are more MRI machines in Pittsburgh than in the entire country of England. In England, there are more administrators than practitioners by a factor of 3:1. It is a hugely wasteful, inefficient, ineffective system with poorer outcomes than the United States. I will leave it at that for now.
> 
> P.S.- the same bureaucrats who have been running the bankrupt businesses of Amtrak and the US Postal Service, have been running both as bankrupt businesses, at a deficit, EVERY SINGLE YEAR of their existence under government control. FedEx and UPS are quite profitable businesses. I think that speaks volume about government running anything, especially something as vital as health care.


You talk as if corruption doesn't exist in the Private Sector. The same PS that allowed Enron to **** up and Bernie Madoff to con people out of money and drag the worldwide economy into a huge recession. Also, im not sure but I don't think this bill eliminates the Private Sector. If government run health insurance is as ineffecient as you claim then surely the Private Sector will have no problem pulling ahead with people congregating to private insurance companies because they're better.

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## Flagg

> America difference from Europe in the fact that we have 300+ million people and about 11-20 million do not pay federal income tax (illegal immigrants). If we get a public option for all, that number of those that do not pay income tax will more than likely go up. We simple can not morally or practically exclude anyone from coverage regardless of legal status. Will it bankrupt the US, no. We are already bankrupt, another way of looking at it is that China is footing a lot of the bill for us.


Immigration is in essence, a different story and yes it sucks that illegals would get all of these benefits, but illegal immigration seems to be horrendously managed in both the US and the UK and until Government knuckles down to do something about this, I don't see how denying the rest of the American population to spite the noise of some 15 million illegal South Americans is constructive.

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## BgMc31

> No, I am not disagreeing with you at all.
> 
> I agree that universal health care reform is indeed a solid idea.
> 
> It's just that I don't trust the government as of late.
> 
> And it's the fvcking republicans also.
> 
> It's just myself on a rant.
> ...


*Everything is good brotha. This is convention season here in Vegas, so there is a lot of bodyguard work available for me right now. I've been doing a whole lot of that lately. It will calm down after Dec. 1.*




> America difference from Europe in the fact that we have 300+ million people and about 11-20 million do not pay federal income tax (illegal immigrants). If we get a public option for all, that number of those that do not pay income tax will more than likely go up. We simple can not morally or practically exclude anyone from coverage regardless of legal status. Will it bankrupt the US, no. We are already bankrupt, another way of looking at it is that China is footing a lot of the bill for us.


*This bill doesn't cover illegal immigrants.*





> Universal health care is much more disastrous than you tend to think. I am not going to write a book because I always feel I have to explain so much. But when government takes over any private sector enterprise, there is an undeniable outcome.. *QUALITY GOES DOWN AND COSTS GO UP.*  There are more MRI machines in Pittsburgh than in the entire country of England. In England, there are more administrators than practitioners by a factor of 3:1. It is a hugely wasteful, inefficient, ineffective system with poorer outcomes than the United States. I will leave it at that for now.
> 
> P.S.- the same bureaucrats who have been running the bankrupt businesses of Amtrak and the US Postal Service, have been running both as bankrupt businesses, at a deficit, EVERY SINGLE YEAR of their existence under government control. FedEx and UPS are quite profitable businesses. I think that speaks volume about government running anything, especially something as vital as health care.


*It seems most people who oppose this bill continue to use this 'government takeover' argument. This is a public OPTION. So like the Postal Service and Amtrak, no one will be forced to use this program. It's available for those who want it. Remember conservatives demonized social security and Medicaid as a step towards socialism and communism. How did that turn out?*

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## Kratos

> [ Remember conservatives demonized social security and Medicaid as a step towards socialism and communism. How did that turn out?[/B]


Pretty fvcking shitty. Way over budget. On track to bankrupt us, and will offer little in the way of benifits to the people who are just begining a lifetime of paying in.

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## inheritmylife

> Remember conservatives demonized social security and Medicaid as a step towards socialism and communism. How did that turn out?


They're unsustainable, poorly run and unconstitutional programs that are bankrupting our country for generations to come.

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## BgMc31

> Pretty fvcking shitty. Way over budget. On track to bankrupt us, and will offer little in the way of benifits to the people who are just begining a lifetime of paying in.





> They're unsustainable, poorly run and unconstitutional programs that are bankrupting our country for generations to come.


*100% aware of their problems but neither are akin to socialism and/or communism which seems to be the conservative, republican rebuttal, or should I say scare tactic to turn public support. But polls overwhelmingly show support for a public option.*

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## Flagg

That's the problem here in this thread. Thanks to some heavy lifting from various TV personalities from the 1950's to now, anything that contains the word "social" seems to equate to baby eating communism and one step below a full blown Third-Reich. You say "socialised medicine" and people dont think "Hmm, a hybrid system where private AND public insurance can coexist and everyone is *free to choose* the kind of health care they want", they think "government mandate insurance, no private option, waiting in the ER for 9 months to get an MRI, etc..."

Now I don't believe governments have the publics best interest at heart, but some of you give the governments of the Western world FAR too much clandestine credit than they are worth.

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## MuscleScience

> [B]
> 
> 
> *This bill doesn't cover illegal immigrants.*


There is absolutely positively no way that illegal immigrants will be excluded from medical coverage. It may not be in the bill but what is in the bill and what is really going to happen are two different things all together.

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## BgMc31

> There is absolutely positively no way that illegal immigrants will be excluded from medical coverage. It may not be in the bill but what is in the bill and what is really going to happen are two different things all together.


You're right. People will always find a way to get over on the system.

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## MuscleScience

> You're right. People will always find a way to get over on the system.


That and how could a doctor or ER staff or medical staff verify legal status. They would have to in effect create a National ID card or system for every American. I dont to many persons democrat or republican allowing that to pass...LOL

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## Kratos

> *100% aware of their problems but neither are akin to socialism and/or communism which seems to be the conservative, republican rebuttal, or should I say scare tactic to turn public support. But polls overwhelmingly show support for a public option.*


If you keep walking towards your destination in the same direction, eventually you get there.

Overwhelming is dependant on what liberal rag you getting your polling data from.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...on_41_disagree

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## LeroyB

> As the only industrialized country in the world without universal healthcare, I feel it's about time!
> 
> Now, I'm sure there are parts of this bill that I don't agree with. I also know that it's probably not a perfect bill, but it is absolutely necessary because the cost of no healthcare reform is going to bankrupt us. The republicans had 8 actually 12 yrs to do something about healthcare reform but chose to stay in bed with the insurance companies. But they didn't. Even still if they would offer a valid alternative instead of just saying no to everything, they may have gotten something that they wanted. But again, they didn't. Polls overwhelming show that the public is in favor of some sort of universal healthcare. 
> 
> I know that this is just another thing we'll disagree on, T. But that's what we are here for, right? Let's see how long it will stay civil.


From a man who lived in America and now lives in a country with Nationalized health care - YOU DON'T WANT IT. 
There are things that need to be done - (Like no suing a doctor for 80 billion because he cause 5000 worth of damage).
Well I guess that will go as well since what - you gonna sue Big Brother?!
LOL.
Dumb ass Americans IMO.
Those who fail to learn from other peoples fails are doomed to fail themselves..
Have fun with that.

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## TITANIUM

Everyone knows how I feel about this Flagg.

I personally feel like I am on a plane, like a 747. And the plane is going to crash, but still has enough fuel to continue for a few more miles.I know that the plane is on auto pilot, and there are no parachutes to be found.I was made to take the plane under protest. And I was forced to buy the ticket also. So, I calmly walk through all the people, and open the cabin door, and the pilots are already gone. Bailed out with the only 2 chutes on the plane.

I am just along for the ride at this point. I know that I'm doomed, and there is no recourse. I didn't get to vote in on this. But, I am sure paying for the ride anyway.

We'll see what happens with the new health care reform. I can only imagine the ramifications of passing it. I never doubted it would not pass. In Mass, it went bankrupt in the first 2 months, but the state will not admit it. So, we just keep dumping money into it anyways.I guess the way politicians make a problem go away is to keep throwing money at it, in hopes that it will just fix itself. But, it's the tax payers money that's footing the bill.

Best

T

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## BgMc31

> From a man who lived in America and now lives in a country with Nationalized health care - YOU DON'T WANT IT. 
> There are things that need to be done - (Like no suing a doctor for 80 billion because he cause 5000 worth of damage).
> Well I guess that will go as well since what - you gonna sue Big Brother?!
> LOL.
> Dumb ass Americans IMO.
> Those who fail to learn from other peoples fails are doomed to fail themselves..
> Have fun with that.


When will people understand that the public option is just that...AN OPTION!!!! I won't use it. Why? Because the insurance I have is great! And it will not change. For someone who can't afford what I have (I pay almost $900/mo for me and my family), this is an option for them. There aren't people don't make $200/k+/yr like me. You get what you pay for. If you make $25k/yr and don't have an insurance plan at work. Here's you opportunity to get afforable health care, but don't expect to get what I get when I pay $900/mo for me and my family and you're paying $250. My daughter doesn't expect Bentley comfort when she only drives a Hyundai. But it was her OPTION (well my option because I bought the car) to drive a Hyundai.

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## TITANIUM

> When will people understand that the public option is just that...AN OPTION!!!! I won't use it. Why? Because the insurance I have is great! And it will not change. For someone who can't afford what I have (I pay almost $900/mo for me and my family), this is an option for them. There aren't people don't make $200/k+/yr like me. You get what you pay for. If you make $25k/yr and don't have an insurance plan at work. Here's you opportunity to get afforable health care, but don't expect to get what I get when I pay $900/mo for me and my family and you're paying $250. My daughter doesn't expect Bentley comfort when she only drives a Hyundai. But it was her OPTION (well my option because I bought the car) to drive a Hyundai.



I hope you understand the ramifications of that statement and the issues it represents.

Best

T

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## Bull_Nuts

> Universal health care is much more disastrous than you tend to think. I am not going to write a book because I always feel I have to explain so much. But when government takes over any private sector enterprise, there is an undeniable outcome.. *QUALITY GOES DOWN AND COSTS GO UP.*  There are more MRI machines in Pittsburgh than in the entire country of England. In England, there are more administrators than practitioners by a factor of 3:1. It is a hugely wasteful, inefficient, ineffective system with poorer outcomes than the United States. I will leave it at that for now.
> 
> P.S.- the same bureaucrats who have been running the bankrupt businesses of Amtrak and the US Postal Service, have been running both as bankrupt businesses, at a deficit, EVERY SINGLE YEAR of their existence under government control. FedEx and UPS are quite profitable businesses. I think that speaks volume about government running anything, especially something as vital as health care.




I have a feeling cost will still be expensive one way or another and quality will still suck...

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## Kratos

> I have a feeling cost will still be expensive one way or another and quality will still suck...


All these people on the universal heathcare band wagon...and nobody has yet to outline where the cost saving will be, and how much money we will save as a nation.

All they say is, our costs are high and if we don't reform we'll go bankrupt as a nation. That's a fallacy, because were is the proof heathcare reform is not more expensive the way the bill is written.

It's also a dirty and corrupt bill. No tort reform, to please the lawyer lobby. You must carry insurance by law from a private insurance if you can afford it to try and satisfy the insurance lobby. It's special interest at it's worst, repackaged to the American public as progress. It's dirty business.

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## Kratos

as far as preventitive care is concerned, it's a myth that it cuts cost. There is plenty of research on the subject...life expectancy, maybe..but cost, no.

As far as the uninsured being a burdon on the system...that doesn't change. BgMc says give them Mc'd's not NY strip. But, what are you going to cut out...the only way uninsured get admidted or treated to the hospital now is if they have a serious condition. How is that going to change...are you going to start turning away people who have gun shot wounds because they have gvt insurance...no, you're going to take care of them...submit it to insurance, it will get denied, the hospital won't get paid and it's the same freakin scenario and impact on the system.

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## peachfuzz

im gonna have to go with kratos, T, the god father etc on this one

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## TITANIUM

Ya, seems that collectively that is the way this thread has gone in.

BcMc seems to really go to bat for these particular issues related to this administration.

Best

T

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## gigabitbucket

President Obama bin laden's healthcare Bill by the end of the year will not be met. Even if the Senate manages to vote before Christmas, House and Senate versions must then be merged in conference. Both houses of Congress would then have to vote on the resulting legislation before the text is signed by the president. Democrats now hope this can be achieved before the State of the Union address in late January.

I am sure it will pass and ALL USA will have to pay hefty taxes to pay for this embarressment.

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## Kratos

> Ya, seems that collectively that is the way this thread has gone in.
> 
> BcMc seems to really go to bat for these particular issues related to this administration.
> 
> Best
> 
> T


I think like a lot of Americans BgMc is concerned with rising healthcare costs. He likes Obama and trusts the administration, so I can understand where he's coming from. I not totally against reform (but will never support a public option), but I have seen no proof this bill is a step in the right direction. And the only proof offered is there are a lot of people without insurance, our healthcare costs a lot ect. But nobody is outlining the ways this bill will cut costs or why this is the answer for America. Before we rush to pass a bill, shouldn't we have some aprox idea of how it helps?

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## Kratos

So, why am I so convinced the reforms won't work and a public option is not good. Well, aside from my political stance, we have a model in this country, in a land where the democrats roam free and wild. Taxachussets already has implemented similar reforms years ago.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10488

Massachusetts' Obama-like Reforms Increase Health Costs, Wait Times
by Michael F. Cannon 


Michael F. Cannon is director of health policy studies at the Cato Institute and co-author of Healthy Competition: What's Holding Back Health Care and How to Free It.
Added to cato.org on August 28, 2009

This article appeared in Detroit News on August 27, 2009. 

If you are curious about how President Barack Obama's health plan would affect your health care, look no farther than Massachusetts. In 2006, the Bay State enacted a slate of reforms that almost perfectly mirror the plan of Obama and congressional Democrats.

Those reforms reveal that the Obama plan would mean higher health insurance premiums for millions, would reduce choice by eliminating both low-cost and comprehensive health plans, would encourage insurers to avoid the sick and would reduce the quality of care.

Massachusetts reduced its uninsured population by two-thirds  yet the cost would be considered staggering, had state officials not done such a good job of hiding it. Finally, Massachusetts shows where "ObamaCare" would ultimately lead: Officials are already laying the groundwork for government rationing.
The most sweeping provision in the Massachusetts reforms  and the legislation before Congress  is an "individual mandate" that makes health insurance compulsory. Massachusetts shows that such a mandate would oust millions from their low-cost health plans and force them to pay higher premiums.

The necessity of specifying what satisfies the mandate gives politicians enormous power to dictate the content of every American's health plan  a power that health care providers inevitably capture and use to increase the required level of insurance.

In the three years since Massachusetts enacted its individual mandate, providers successfully lobbied to require 16 specific types of coverage under the mandate: prescription drugs, preventive care, diabetes self-management, drug-abuse treatment, early intervention for autism, hospice care, hormone replacement therapy, non-in-vitro fertility services, orthotics, prosthetics, telemedicine, testicular cancer, lay midwives, nurses, nurse practitioners and pediatric specialists.

The Massachusetts Legislature is considering more than 70 additional requirements.
Those requirements can increase premiums by 14 percent or more. Officials further increased premiums by imposing new limits on cost-sharing.

"The effect," writes the Boston Globe, "has been to provide more comprehensive insurance than in most other states but also to raise costs." Premiums are growing 21 to 46 percent faster than the national average, in part because Massachusetts' individual mandate has effectively outlawed affordable health plans.

Massachusetts long ago adopted another feature of the Obama plan: price controls that prohibit insurers from varying premiums based on a purchaser's health status. Those price controls further increase premiums for the young and healthy.

They also eliminate comprehensive health plans. Obama adviser David Cutler found that in Harvard University's price-controlled health insurance exchange, "adverse selection" or the attraction of the sickest patients caused premiums for the most comprehensive plan to rise until insurers eventually canceled it. Those price controls also encourage insurers to avoid the sick. And who can blame them, considering that the government is forcing them to sell a $50,000 policy for just $10,000?

One way insurers can avoid the $50,000 patients is to drop benefits those customers find attractive. Shelby Rogers is a 12-year-old girl with spinal muscular atrophy, whose parents chose an Aetna plan through the price-controlled health insurance exchange for federal workers. Last year, Aetna announced it would drop coverage for Shelby's 12-hour-a-day nurse, who, among other things, helps Shelby avoid bedsores by turning her over at night. An Aetna spokesman explained the reason was to avoid offering a benefit that causes the sickest patients to flock to the plan.

Over time, as mandates eliminate low-cost options and price controls eliminate comprehensive options, both the Massachusetts and Obama reforms will march consumers into a narrow range of health plans.

As goes choice, so goes quality. Statistics on waiting times for specialist care in Massachusetts read like a dispatch from Canada. In 2004, Boston already had the longest waits among metropolitan areas. By 2009, waits had generally shortened in other metro areas (average wait: less than three weeks) but lengthened in Boston (average wait: seven weeks), according to the Merritt Hawkins survey.

Voters who believe the Massachusetts law reduced the quality of care outnumber those who believe it helped by nearly 3-to-1 (29 percent to 10 percent).
Massachusetts has reduced the share of its population that lacks coverage from an estimated 8.3 percent in 2006 to an estimated 2.6 percent by June 2008. Former Gov. Mitt Romney, a Republican who signed the Massachusetts reforms into law, boasts that "no other state has made as much progress in covering their uninsured."

Yet that achievement carries an exorbitant price tag: at least $2.1 billion this year, according to the Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, a figure that doesn't even include the cost of the additional coverage discussed above. Since Massachusetts has covered just 432,000 previously uninsured residents, the cost of covering a previously uninsured family of four  at least $20,000  is well above the average cost of an employer-sponsored family policy (about $13,000).

Had state officials not done their level best to hide those costs  the individual mandate pushed 60 percent of the cost off-budget, while expanding eligibility for Medicaid pushed another 20 percent onto the federal budget  no one would be hailing Massachusetts as a model.

As it is, Massachusetts has fooled some prominent watchdogs. The Boston Globe editorializes that the cost to the state taxpayer is "about $88 million a year," when the actual cost to state taxpayers is 19 times that amount, and the total cost is 24 times that amount.

The New York Times editorial page's account of the law's cost was only off by a factor of three.

Nevertheless, those costs are appearing in higher taxes and health insurance premiums. State officials have raised taxes on tobacco, hospitals, insurers and employers, as well as eliminated coverage for many legal immigrants just to scrape up their 20 percent share of the cost. They are also showing the nation where ObamaCare would ultimately lead: government-imposed rationing.

To cope with the cost of its reforms, Massachusetts created a legislative commission that has recommended moving the entire market to a single, Canadian-style payment system that would encourage doctors and hospitals to ration care.

The Legislature also plans to leverage its power under the individual mandate to require "evidence-based purchasing strategies," which is another way of saying government bureaucrats may soon be deciding who gets medical care and who does not.

When former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin whipped people into a frenzy over "death panels," she was warning not only against a proposal for end-of-life counseling but plans that would make it easier for Medicare to use its existing power to try to ration care to the elderly and disabled.

Massachusetts shows that Obama's individual mandate would expand federal power by enabling it to ration care to patients under age 65.

Though initially popular, enthusiasm for the Massachusetts reforms may be on the wane. A recent poll found that more Massachusetts voters say the law has made health insurance less affordable (27 percent) than believe it has made coverage more affordable (21 percent). Voters who believe the reforms have been a failure outnumber those who believe the reforms have been a success by 37 percent to 26 percent.

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## Kratos

As you can see, there are less uninsured, but it cost a huge amount of money. Healthcare costs are rising faster in Mass then anywhere in the nation. And they are facing a primary care doctor shortage because primary care doctors are already in short supply everywhere, nobody wants to pay them well, and now you have a bunch of new patients you are going to get paid insuffecently for so more doctors are leaving.

They tried to do peice of shit care, but eventually added service after service.

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## BgMc31

> I think like a lot of Americans BgMc is concerned with rising healthcare costs. He likes Obama and trusts the administration, so I can understand where he's coming from. I not totally against reform (but will never support a public option), but I have seen no proof this bill is a step in the right direction. And the only proof offered is there are a lot of people without insurance, our healthcare costs a lot ect. But nobody is outlining the ways this bill will cut costs or why this is the answer for America. Before we rush to pass a bill, shouldn't we have some aprox idea of how it helps?


That's exactly what I'm concerned about Kratos. And I believe that these bills aren't totally without their shortcomings. I wish there was tort reform in the bill and I wish they offered more proof. But what many don't realize is that these plans weren't voted into law, they were voted to go forward with the debates. I'm sure more will be tweaked in these bills. The senate bill is different from the house bill. Many dems who voted for the senate bill said they wouldn't support the bill if it continues in it's current format. Tweaks will be made, we'll just have to see how it plays out. I applaud congress for continuing the debate about a much needed program.

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