# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Supplements to Compliment TRT

## Vettester

I know we have a supplement forum, but I kind of want to hear from the HRT crowd on this one. What types of supplements, vitamins, natural enhancements do you use? Suggest? Can't live without? What types of products helps make one's TRT program balanced and more versatile? I eat the right things, no drinking/smoking, in the gym with at least 4 - 5x week ... But what am I missing? 

I've recently learned a lot just off of some of the responses I've got on my TRT thread about products like Niacin, and the correct type and amount to take for helping with LDL/HDL. So, I will be adding that to my routine shortly.

Here's some of the things I take:
Vitacell (liquid) from MM 
Glucosamine 
Amino Sculpt (I really liked this stuff, great for skin, nails, hair)
EFA's
Lean Pro Matrix -34g Protein Powder 
ARM from MM (once in awhile as a PWO shake) 
Injection B12 (A must IMO for those on TRT)
Melatonin - For sleep
UDCA - On occasion for liver support. 

If I missed something I'll add it in later. I always wonder if there's other various vitamins or amino acids that I don't get enough of because the manufacturers of these products only put in limited amounts, or I'm just simply overlooking the obvious.

What are some of the things you use and recommend others to use? Is there something you swear by that is the best (brand and/or quality)? What things can we use to get the most out of our TRT program??

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## casberger

I just take the basics...

Fish oil 
Protein powder (whey and casein)
Multivitamin (Optimen)
Glucosamine
Pre-workout booster (Jack3d)
Red Yeast rice (for cholesterol)
Milk Thistle (for liver support)
Hawthorn Berry (good for heart strength, skin)
Vit b12 Injections
Phenibut (occasionally for sleep)
PEA (for a good buzz once in a while lol)
Kelp (trying to see if it will cure my thyroid issues naturally)

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## Vettester

Casberger, what is PEA?

I also take some liver support on occasion, but I take UDCA. Not as much now, but was taking more so when I was running Anavar .

Red Yeast Rice? OK, that's a new one on me too. Does it do a good job? I've got that, Niacin, and a Oatmeal/Cinnamon Shake (as recommended on my other thread) to take for cholesterol.

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## casberger

> Casberger, what is PEA?
> 
> I also take some liver support on occasion, but I take UDCA. Not as much now, but was taking more so when I was running Anavar .
> 
> Red Yeast Rice? OK, that's a new one on me too. Does it do a good job? I've got that, Niacin, and a Oatmeal/Cinnamon Shake (as recommended on my other thread) to take for cholesterol.


PEA is Phenethylamine. It is the chemical found in chocolate. It is a natural stimulant unlike anything I have tried. I take 2grams and it gives me a good buzz that lasts a half hour. Sometimes I take 1gram pre-workout to improve my mind/muscle concentration.

Yeah Red Yeast Rice is a spice thats been eaten in china for over 500 years. The yeast contains substances called monocolins, which lower cholesterol by inhibiting cholesterol production in the liver in the same manner as prescription statin drugs.

I just had my bloodwork results come back and here is what my cholesterol looked like:
Triglyceride 41 range 30-200
Cholesterol, Serum 108 range 50-200 
HDL 40 range 32-96
LDL 59.8 range 0-130
I have never had a problem with cholesterol but my last labs showed that my cholesterol was elevated. I started taking the red yeast rice, eating more fish oil, eating more fiber. Im not sure if its a combination of everything I have been doing but something worked.

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## megustatetas

> PEA is Phenethylamine. It is the chemical found in chocolate. It is a natural stimulant unlike anything I have tried. I take 2grams and it gives me a good buzz that lasts a half hour. Sometimes I take 1gram pre-workout to improve my mind/muscle concentration.
> 
> Yeah Red Yeast Rice is a spice thats been eaten in china for over 500 years. The yeast contains substances called monocolins, which lower cholesterol by inhibiting cholesterol production in the liver in the same manner as prescription statin drugs.
> 
> I just had my bloodwork results come back and here is what my cholesterol looked like:
> Triglyceride 41 range 30-200
> Cholesterol, Serum 108 range 50-200 
> HDL 40 range 32-96
> LDL 59.8 range 0-130
> I have never had a problem with cholesterol but my last labs showed that my cholesterol was elevated. I started taking the red yeast rice, eating more fish oil, eating more fiber. Im not sure if its a combination of everything I have been doing but something worked.


great numbers on cholesterol, i know some of us would kill for those values. Careful on the red yeast rice, as the US has cracked down on it, forcing the importers to remove the natural ingredient which it turns out is identical to lovastatin. the FDA ruled that the importers had to remove monocolins to sell it as a supplement. Kind of invalidates the patent of lovastatin if u can get the same thing naturally of much less...some states have fought that and others not, so not all is the same. It mostly all comes from china where it is used for many things.

I would add one more basic supp to the list CO-Q10 as its is a great protector of the heart and has also anti-oxi properties. at least 100mg a day unless you are known to have CVD or other circu issues.

Lastly i put up this link to show the 7 factors in heart and CV issues, note the connection of thyroid levels to cholesterol profiles also.

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## eregitano

*Musts:*
Fish Oil
Protein (Whey and Casein)
ZMA (Supports Natural Test production) A must for TRT IMO
Joint Fuel
Pre workout booster (Jakd 3d)
Amions
*
Occaisonal* 
Creatine
Glutamine

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## eregitano

What are the benefits of a b-12 shot and TRT? Why not b-12 pills in lue of another injection?

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## Vettester

> What are the benefits of a b-12 shot and TRT? Why not b-12 pills in lue of another injection?


A lot of people don't have sufficient intrinsic factor, thus oral B12 won't absorb properly, in some cases might not absorb at all. Injection B12 obviously doesn't have to go that route, and the absorption rate is superior.

B12 is a great compliment to TRT ... Nervous system, brain function, metabolism ... That's just to name a few. As mentioned in my other thread, I'm going to start running the Methylcobalamin, which looks to be even better.

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## Vettester

> I would add one more basic supp to the list CO-Q10 as its is a great protector of the heart and has also anti-oxi properties. at least 100mg a day unless you are known to have CVD or other circu issues.
> 
> Lastly i put up this link to show the 7 factors in heart and CV issues, note the connection of thyroid levels to cholesterol profiles also.


This is exactly what I was hoping to achieve by starting this thread. CO-Q10 ... I would have never guess because I don't even know what the hell that is, but now I can throw this on my spreadsheet and do some further research.

Megburn, I didn't see a link attachment. Would enjoy reading if you have it.

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## Vettester

Curious with how much Vitamin C a person should be taking daily. Doubt I get near enough with my mulit-vitamin and the food I eat. 

I've seen a few posts by nOObs about this and other vitamins, hoping he will chime in.

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## eregitano

I've actually heard from guys at the gym that this was a good b 12 product because it dissolves immediately, therefore absorbed well.

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## eregitano

> A lot of people don't have sufficient intrinsic factor, thus oral B12 won't absorb properly, in some cases might not absorb at all. Injection B12 obviously doesn't have to go that route, and the absorption rate is superior.
> 
> B12 is a great compliment to TRT ... Nervous system, brain function, metabolism ... That's just to name a few. As mentioned in my other thread, I'm going to start running the Methylcobalamin, which looks to be even better.


approx how many mcg's do you inject of b-12 per week? Is the methylcobalamim you're looking at doing also injectable?

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## Vettester

> approx how many mcg's do you inject of b-12 per week? Is the methylcobalamim you're looking at doing also injectable?


I've just been taking 1000mcg with my weekly "T" shot. I'll start out the same with the new stuff, but might consider increasing to 2 shots per week.

**Also, I noticed the links that were posted got removed. We've got a supplement sponsor on this site, so the links may have had a conflict. Apologies if any lines were crossed.

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## BillyBob210

Whey and casein
Fish oil
Multi
C
L-Arginine - makes for a good pump in the gym
D- Prescription 
Caffiene
Zinc

I too am curious about the B-12 shot

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## megustatetas

> This is exactly what I was hoping to achieve by starting this thread. CO-Q10 ... I would have never guess because I don't even know what the hell that is, but now I can throw this on my spreadsheet and do some further research.
> 
> Megburn, I didn't see a link attachment. Would enjoy reading if you have it.


that "Megburn" got me laughing.....

http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_c...lerosis_01.htm
not sure what happened to the first link but here is a different one that covers the same ground.

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## Vettester

> Whey and casein
> Fish oil
> Multi
> C
> L-Arginine - makes for a good pump in the gym
> D- Prescription 
> *Caffiene*
> Zinc
> 
> I too am curious about the B-12 shot


I think it was nOObs that has some serious reservations with caffeine and/or coffee. Got to admit, I do my one cup in the morning thing like a lot of guys do. Again, if nOObs jumps in he might be able to explain why this is not a good thing.

On the L-Arginine ... Do you take that prior to working out? Is there anything else you take if for besides the "pump"?

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## Vettester

> that "Megburn" got me laughing.....
> 
> http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_c...lerosis_01.htm
> not sure what happened to the first link but here is a different one that covers the same ground.


Thanks!!!

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## n00bs

I did one better mate, i started a thread/// http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=438050

Anyway stinging nettle root is a must i take this product..




Twice i have run out of it while on TRT. those two times i have broken out massivley with acne on my face when i ran out for 2 days...Coincidence? Dont think so...

I also take b12 shots going to do eod now..

Multi twice daily is a must. (with NO IRON)
Milk thistle optional
Dimplus i think is a must


Dropped my oestrogen alot of points!

Other then that it is the same as anything else...

Aminos
Alot of vitmain c
.....
Magnesium morning night after meals
Zinc after lunch


I wouldnt uspplement L-arginine specifically, AAKG has been shown to increase arginine levels better then L-arginine itself..

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## Times Roman

> PEA is Phenethylamine. It is the chemical found in chocolate. It is a natural stimulant unlike anything I have tried. I take 2grams and it gives me a good buzz that lasts a half hour. Sometimes I take 1gram pre-workout to improve my mind/muscle concentration.
> 
> Yeah Red Yeast Rice is a spice thats been eaten in china for over 500 years. The yeast contains substances called monocolins, which lower cholesterol by inhibiting cholesterol production in the liver in the same manner as prescription statin drugs.
> 
> I just had my bloodwork results come back and here is what my cholesterol looked like:
> Triglyceride 41 range 30-200
> Cholesterol, Serum 108 range 50-200 
> HDL 40 range 32-96
> LDL 59.8 range 0-130
> I have never had a problem with cholesterol but my last labs showed that my cholesterol was elevated. I started taking the red yeast rice, eating more fish oil, eating more fiber. Im not sure if its a combination of everything I have been doing but something worked.


I'm surpised it's not a controlled substance (PEA). I'm not sure how you take it, but I purchased 25 grams once for next to nothing... very very pure, white powdery substance, same consistancy as another street drug. It will absolutely blow your sox off if taken the same was as the street drug.

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## Vettester

nOObs, great stuff, thanks!!! That caffeine post is awesome!! I will go through it tooth and nail.

How much vitamin C do you suggest? I'm going to up it quite a bit for the niacin, but is there a normal amount people should be taking regardless?

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## n00bs

Add 1 gram per day (100% asorbic acid) 
When you reach bowel problems drop 1g and that is your theraputic dosage...

On another board someone has cancer, they are tkaing 35g orally a day no bowel problems.. Some people get to 12 some 7 some 5..

Depends on you as everyone is different..

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## BillyBob210

> I think it was nOObs that has some serious reservations with caffeine and/or coffee. Got to admit, I do my one cup in the morning thing like a lot of guys do. Again, if nOObs jumps in he might be able to explain why this is not a good thing.
> 
> On the L-Arginine ... Do you take that prior to working out? Is there anything else you take if for besides the "pump"?


I started taking it back when I was fat to help lower BP. BP fine now but I still take one cap every day and three on gym mornings. It really does help with a good pump and makes the veins pop out. Including the "main vein" during sex time! Just my opinion, of course.

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## casberger

> I'm surpised it's not a controlled substance (PEA). I'm not sure how you take it, but I purchased 25 grams once for next to nothing... very very pure, white powdery substance, same consistancy as another street drug. It will absolutely blow your sox off if taken the same was as the street drug.


I take mine disolved in water or capsule form. Usually 2g then 15 minutes later I take 1g. Its pretty crazy stuff. I'm sure it will eventually be banned

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## Vettester

OK, I got some Niacin (not the no flush), L-Arginine, and some CO-Q10. I have Vitamin C on hand and will follow nOObs protocol advise, and use it in conjunction with the Niacin. 

nOObs, you said up the dosage of "C" 1gm/day til there's bowel problems, then back it off 1gm. When you say "problems", what does that mean? Presume constipation, but want to clarify so I know what to look for.

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## n00bs

Opposite of constipation.. It will explode and you will know.

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## tubs

big fan of lef.org also 

I take a hanfull of supps a day.

two that i did not see mentioned are green tea and flax seed. green tea is a must along with fish and or flax imo

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## tubs

actually if you go here they have a great list of stuff

http://www.lef.org/anti-aging/

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## n00bs

The omega 3 in flaxseed is not as bioavailable as in fishoil.. 

We get enough omega 6 in our diets anyway so i stick with concnetrated epa/dha .. And then with olive oil throughout the day for omega 9 im fairly set..

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## Epic Ed

- SciFit whey protein powder pre-workout
- Jack3d - 1 scoop pre-workout
- B-12 1000mg 1x EW
- multivitamin 1x ED
- Super Omega 3-6-9 oil 1200mg 2x ED
- Fish oil 1200mg 2x ED
- Vitamin C 1000mg 2x ED
- Potassium 100mg 1x ED
- Taurine 2000mg 1x any day I lift (cramps)

I might add CO-Q10. I've stopped taking glucosamine entirely. It's a waste of money for me. I've taken it over the years and most recently have been taking it for about 10 months straight and have experienced zero benefits from doing so.

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## n00bs

I lol @ jack3d...

But its supposed to be a hectic supplement...

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## Vettester

> Opposite of constipation.. It will explode and you will know.


Well I hope it isn't squat day at the gym when I just figured out that I hit my peak with Vitamin C!!! :Icon Sprint:

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## n00bs

muahahahahaha....

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## Vettester

> big fan of lef.org also 
> 
> I take a hanfull of supps a day.
> 
> two that i did not see mentioned are green tea and flax seed. green tea is a must along with fish and or flax imo


I'm presuming there's enough Flax in the EFA's, but maybe that's questionable.

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## warchild

b6 helps maintain protein metoblism

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## Vettester

> b6 helps maintain protein metoblism


Cool, thanks for sharing. Is there a specific dosage and/or interval a person should try to get the most out of it? Is this something that you've seen make a big impact in your supplement routine? I've got B6 in my Multi-Vitamin, but it's probably nowhere near enough.

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## Vettester

> - SciFit whey protein powder pre-workout
> - Jack3d - 1 scoop pre-workout
> - B-12 1000mg 1x EW
> - multivitamin 1x ED
> - Super Omega 3-6-9 oil 1200mg 2x ED
> - Fish oil 1200mg 2x ED
> - Vitamin C 1000mg 2x ED
> - Potassium 100mg 1x ED
> - Taurine 2000mg 1x any day I lift (cramps)
> ...


Good stuff, Ed ... Thanks! I noticed you show Fish oil in addition to Super Omega 3-6-9. Is this just to get extra amounts of fish oil beyond the EFA 3-6-9? I take mine twice a day, and take it with a few teaspoons of natty P-butter about an hour before going to bed. The EFA's metabolize nicely with the fat in natty P-Butter. Can't say enough good things about this stuff - A MUST!

I just got a hold of the CO-Q10 today. Will keep an eye on and let you know if I notice anything good, bad or indifferent.
.

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## PPC

Krill oil:

Last time I checked my HDL it was 87. This was taking 2 krill oil caps a day and eating salmon 4-5 times a week. I like krill because it's high anti oxidant level stops it from turning rancid. You know shelf life won't be a problem as it often is with regular fish oil. Good omega 3 source. Flax oil is highly estrogenic and as Noob mentioned, does not convert easily in the body to the omega 3's we use.

Vit D:

All of us know about it's importance now but I think many still underdose. I took 4000 iu for 3 months and my levels came back only in the 30's. I take 8000 every day now. My Dad took 8000 per day for 3 months and only got to high 30's up from a horrible 14. At 10 000 he is almost at 60. Maybe we have issues absorbing.

Whey:

Undenatured is best. This way all the nutrients and glutathione content is not destroyed. Glutathione is our most gentle yet effective way of chelating the body and of course aids the mitachondria of the cell in it's tasks. It is a 'cell energiser.' While whey is a good protein source, I think it is even more important for it's glutathione content so why use a source that is denatured at high heats?

I think keeping the carb level of whey protein down is real important, so I like to use one with stevia and keep it under 2 gm per serving. Jay Robb's is perfect for this. High carbs = high triglycerides = small cholesterol particles = dangerous plaque.

Anti inflammatories:

curcumin
resveratrol
tart cherry extract caps

All these a poweful fighters of inflammation. Tart cherry aids in pain relief and arthritis sufferers can often decrease pain meds when using. These three are also potent cancer fighters. Tart cherry is sometimes called 'natures own chemotherapy'.

Lugol's iodine:

Huge for thyroid function and a must if you do not use iodized salt. Helps to ensure estradiol breakdown does not result in too high aggressive estrogen ie; helps to raise estriol the weaker estrogen over estrone. It is a breast cancer preventative and fighter.

Liquid chlorrophyl drops:

The cheapest green supplement in my mind. It detoxifies the body, is an excellent blood builder and source of vit K and doesn't leave that gritty taste on the roof of your mouth as the green powders do. It also helps purge the body of bad odours. I like mint flavor, can simply be added to a chocolate whey protein smoothie to make choc-mint.

Dessicated liver:
 
Vette, you wouldn't want to take this due to your high ferritin, but for those of us trying to build up iron stores, it's the safest way. Ferrous forms of iron are not easily absorbed and simply taking 'iron' can have negative consequences as iron can be a toxic free radical in the body. Dessicated liver from grass fed cattle is a good natural source of B12.

A note about PEA. I find it can really enhance sense of well being. Dopamine drugs like deprenyl extend it's life. But you have to be really careful you don't get a hypertensive crisis. There are studies showing low dose deprenyl along with very small doses of PEA (less than 50 mg) completely resoved depression.

In my experience with it, if you are taking even 2.5 mg of deprenyl, do not go over 50 mg PEA. Your body will start floating and blood pressure sky rockets, scary.

20-40 mg PEA with low dose deprenyl works well to enhance happiness and feelings of love (PEA surges in high doses in our body when we fall in love) But I still notice a sort of 'come down' depleted feeling when it leaves the body so only use every now and then now.

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## Vettester

PPC, great post (as always)! I'm going to take a closer look at the Tart Cherry Extract. Also, I keep hearing the raves about PEA. Sounds like it has amazing potential, but also sounds like it better be taken with a lot of respect!

BTW, I was able to get into a local blood drive last night, so I let them suck some iron enriched blood out of me. They tested it on the spot and the nurse was pleased to see my iron levels. Sure it will help someone with anemia if needed.

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## PPC

> PPC, great post (as always)! I'm going to take a closer look at the Tart Cherry Extract. Also, I keep hearing the raves about PEA. Sounds like it has amazing potential, but also sounds like it better be taken with a lot of respect!
> 
> BTW, I was able to get into a local blood drive last night, so I let them suck some iron enriched blood out of me. They tested it on the spot and the nurse was pleased to see my iron levels. Sure it will help someone with anemia if needed.


Excellent. Helping others and yourself.

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## Jupiter2

Just thought I would add my 2 cents to this thread.

I have been told that Flax Seed Oil is an excellent alternative to Fish Oil. All the benefits without the after taste. I personally have noticed no difference between the two.

Regarding cholesterol control, Niacin in combination with Red Yeast Rice is fantastic. My pharmacist tells me however that the Red Yeast has a tendency to drop blood pressure levels. In people with normal blood pressure this would result in undesirable effects, so he suggested CoQ10.

Hope this helps.

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## Vettester

Interesting sensation with the Niacin and Vitamin C combo. Yesterday I took 1g of the C and 500mg of the Niacin. Upped that to 2g of C and 1g of Niacin today. Feel a little light headed, but nothing severe. Kind of in a good way! Noticed the skin had this patchy red tint to it, almost like a minor rash. I think nOObs stated something about this being a possibility as my body adjusts to it. Anyways, that lasted about an hour and it went back to normal. 

Also started taking the CO-Q10. Now if I could just find some stinging nettle root! Might have to order that one.

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## Vettester

> Just thought I would add my 2 cents to this thread.
> 
> I have been told that Flax Seed Oil is an excellent alternative to Fish Oil. All the benefits without the after taste. I personally have noticed no difference between the two.
> 
> Regarding cholesterol control, Niacin in combination with Red Yeast Rice is fantastic. My pharmacist tells me however that the Red Yeast has a tendency to drop blood pressure levels. In people with normal blood pressure this would result in undesirable effects, so he suggested CoQ10.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks, Jup. The EFA's I take have both fish oil and flax seed in them. I've found this to be a good combination. Well, sounds like the right track for the Niacin CO-Q10 stuff. Me likey!

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## Jupiter2

Vette, that red flush is likely due to the niacin. Very hard to find niacin anymore that still contains the ability to flush but it sounds to me like you've found some. The flush is most prominent on the upper body and can range from red blotches to looking like a severe sunburn. It is often accompanied by an itching sensation or a feeling similar to insects crawling over the affected parts of your body, and what feels like hot flashes. The effects usually don't last longer than an hour and it is caused by the widening of the capillaries which allows more blood to reach the cells.

Just as an aside I've noted this effect provides a particularly pleasing increase to muscle pumps if taken just prior to your workout.

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## Vettester

Jup, yeah the stuff I have is straight niacin. 

Now you tell me about the "pump" correlation ... I just got back from the gym and it was biceps/forearms day. I'll know next time to take it before going to the gym  :Smilie:

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## n00bs

Its a vasodilator... Niaci. Releases histamine from mast cells.. If you don take it often enough 3 times a day the histamine builds up in the mast cells and again is released.. The flush is the same As a histamine injection except there is no increase in bp.

So remember 3 times a day... Jaundice can occur if you drink alcohol ( i dont) as billirubin competes with niacin at the hepatic uptake.

Remember 1g 3 times daily is the standard dosage take after food to even saturation.

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## Vettester

Thanks, nOObs! I don't drink any alcohol, so no worries there. Also, got my oats soaking. Will start the oatmeal/protein shake regiment tomorrow w/cinnamon.

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## megustatetas

> Krill oil:
> 
> Last time I checked my HDL it was 87. This was taking 2 krill oil caps a day and eating salmon 4-5 times a week. I like krill because it's high anti oxidant level stops it from turning rancid. You know shelf life won't be a problem as it often is with regular fish oil. Good omega 3 source. Flax oil is highly estrogenic and as Noob mentioned, does not convert easily in the body to the omega 3's we uses.
> 
> Vit D:
> 
> All of us know about it's importance now but I think many still underdose. I took 4000 iu for 3 months and my levels came back only in the 30's. I take 8000 every day now. My Dad took 8000 per day for 3 months and only got to high 30's up from a horrible 14. At 10 000 he is almost at 60. Maybe we have issues absorbing.
> 
> Whey:
> ...


Hey PPC how about starting a new thread on nootropics and anti-aging. I have 8 years off and on experience with Deprenyl, Hydergine, Lucidril, and piracetam. Never got the mix quite right and never thought enough about the interaction with other things, but sounds like you can teach me some here now....what do you say...i have been thinking for years any good anti aging program should include supps for my second favorite organ also...off to do my oatmeal, cinnamon, and tumeric shake....impressed that you called it Cúrcumin too....

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## SlimmerMe

Thanks PPC and Everyone else----I have a new shopping list! And love learning too----this site is just so informative.

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## PPC

> Just thought I would add my 2 cents to this thread.
> 
> I have been told that Flax Seed Oil is an excellent alternative to Fish Oil. All the benefits without the after taste. I personally have noticed no difference between the two.
> 
> Regarding cholesterol control, Niacin in combination with Red Yeast Rice is fantastic. My pharmacist tells me however that the Red Yeast has a tendency to drop blood pressure levels. In people with normal blood pressure this would result in undesirable effects, so he suggested CoQ10.
> 
> Hope this helps.


If anyone uses any form of statin, CoQ10 is a must. Statins, even red yeast rice lower CoQ10 which is essential for cell mitachondrial function.

Be careful even when using red yeast rice. It can be an effective low dose statin but it works just the same way as the pharmaceuticals. Dr Uzzi Reiss comments in one of his books how he never sees any detectable levels of pregnenolone on anyone who uses a statin even red yeast rice.

Pregnenolone is a biggie for brain function, memory and it is a mother hormone, meaning down stream it becomes other important hormones. If I were using red yeast, I would also take pregnenolone. Dr Crisler only reccomends transdermal but there are many who take oral and do fine, depends upon the person.

Flax seed oil can be okay for postmenopausal women who are not using HRT and need to raise their E2 levels. I would hesitate to use it if I were male, however some guys have low E2 so....they may do okay.

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## PPC

> Hey PPC how about starting a new thread on nootropics and anti-aging. I have 8 years off and on experience with Deprenyl, Hydergine, Lucidril, and piracetam. Never got the mix quite right and never thought enough about the interaction with other things, but sounds like you can teach me some here now....what do you say...i have been thinking for years any good anti aging program should include supps for my second favorite organ also...off to do my oatmeal, cinnamon, and tumeric shake....impressed that you called it Cúrcumin too....


Would love to do that once I get back into town and get accesss to my notes and research.

I hope you're not banned. Don't understand what's going on here. I need to be able to keep in contact with you somehow. The years of experience you have is a rarity, we can't lose that. I just don't get all of this.

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## n00bs

Hes banned now..

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## bbrock

Everyone seems to be taking about the same thing the one that i havn't heard much about is cinnamon. My Doctor told me to take cinnamon to help control my blood sugar. I was just doing some research on it and read that it also helps to lower cholestrol without lowering your good cholestrol. Speaking of cholestrol does anyone know what would help to raise good cholestrol (HDL). My overall cholestrol is fine but my HDL is low. It has been this way every since i can remember.

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## Vettester

> Everyone seems to be taking about the same thing the one that i havn't heard much about is cinnamon. My Doctor told me to take cinnamon to help control my blood sugar. I was just doing some research on it and read that it also helps to lower cholestrol without lowering your good cholestrol. Speaking of cholestrol does anyone know what would help to raise good cholestrol (HDL). My overall cholestrol is fine but my HDL is low. It has been this way every since i can remember.


There's quite a bit of information on this thread about Niacin, Cinamon, and of course oatmeal. Also working out regularly helps with this, although I've still had some issues and I workout 4 to 5x week. Anyways, read through it top to bottom if you haven't done so yet, and let us know your thoughts. Also, are you taking other things besides cinamon to help?

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## Vettester

> Hes banned now..


Yeah, looks like he' gone. Sad to see, I really appreciated his insight and perspective.

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## bbrock

I am diabetic and my TRT has basicaly normalized my blood sugar. I take 400 Mg every two weeks of Testosterone Cypianate. I have just started taking liquid letro for my estrogen about a week ago. I am taking it every other day about .1ml. This is a list of other supplements that i take daily.

50 mg DHEA I have just started taking this for my mood.
fish oil
metformin for diabetes.
Cinnamon
protient powder
Aspirin

I havn't heard anyone talk about cinnamon. My doctor wanted me to start taking it to help control blood sugar. I was doing some research and I found out it also helps lower cholestrol without lowering your good cholestrol. I used to take Niaspan for cholestrol but i don't have insurance and that stuff is outragous. Those drug companies will get a hold of something good like niacin and stick a hefty price tag on it. I have just seen a commercial for a drug for fish oil. They are probably charging $100 for that script..

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## bbrock

> There's quite a bit of information on this thread about Niacin, Cinamon, and of course oatmeal. Also working out regularly helps with this, although I've still had some issues and I workout 4 to 5x week. Anyways, read through it top to bottom if you haven't done so yet, and let us know your thoughts. Also, are you taking other things besides cinamon to help?


Yes I was just curious if their is anything out their that can help raise HDL. I have been on niaspan in the past. It made me flush badly but i also lost my insurance and the script is expensive.

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## PPC

> Yes I was just curious if their is anything out their that can help raise HDL. I have been on niaspan in the past. It made me flush badly but i also lost my insurance and the script is expensive.


niaspan...almost the same as slo-niacin. No script needed, available at Walmart for around $12.

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## eregitano

> I am diabetic and my TRT has basicaly normalized my blood sugar. I take 400 Mg every two weeks of Testosterone Cypianate. I have just started taking liquid letro for my estrogen about a week ago. I am taking it every other day about .1ml. This is a list of other supplements that i take daily.
> 
> 50 mg DHEA I have just started taking this for my mood.
> fish oil
> metformin for diabetes.
> Cinnamon
> protient powder
> Aspirin
> 
> I havn't heard anyone talk about cinnamon. My doctor wanted me to start taking it to help control blood sugar. I was doing some research and I found out it also helps lower cholestrol without lowering your good cholestrol. I used to take Niaspan for cholestrol but i don't have insurance and that stuff is outragous. Those drug companies will get a hold of something good like niacin and stick a hefty price tag on it. I have just seen a commercial for a drug for fish oil. They are probably charging $100 for that script..


how is the letro treatin you at this point?

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## n00bs

> niaspan...almost the same as slo-niacin. No script needed, available at Walmart for around $12.


Avoid...

You only flush at the beggining then if your dosage is incorrect.

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## Vettester

> If anyone uses any form of statin, CoQ10 is a must. Statins, even red yeast rice lower CoQ10 which is essential for cell mitachondrial function.
> 
> Pregnenolone is a biggie for brain function, memory and it is a mother hormone, meaning down stream it becomes other important hormones. If I were using red yeast, I would also take pregnenolone. Dr Crisler only reccomends transdermal but there are many who take oral and do fine, depends upon the person.


I just started on both of these (CoQ10 & Pregnenolone) I'm sticking with Dr. John's advise to go transdermal for the Preg. My clinic also set me up with DHEA (5%) 200mg/ml. I'm going to have to design an organizer to keep track of my TRT and supplement program  :Smilie:

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## bbrock

> how is the letro treatin you at this point?


I have only been on it a little over a week. My estrogen was 228 on a scale of 130 or below. So far i have dropped a little water weight, but i have plenty to give. Other than that i can't tell anything yet

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## PPC

> Avoid...
> 
> You only flush at the beggining then if your dosage is incorrect.


Please elaborate. I have my Mom on this as she was not able to work up high enough on regular B3. 

I was under the impression that slo-niacin/niaspan is simply time release. The flush is much milder due to it not hitting your body all at once - gets spread out. Docs and patients get good results with niaspan. Tell me where I'm wrong here...want to learn.

I grew up in Australia, good to see an Aussie here who knows his stuff. Don't know why Aus is so regulated though with hormones.

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## dec11

> *Musts:*
> Fish Oil
> Protein (Whey and Casein)
> *ZMA (Supports Natural Test production) A must for TRT IMO*
> Joint Fuel
> Pre workout booster (Jakd 3d)
> Amions
> *
> Occaisonal* 
> ...


whats the point? on trt you are shut down anyway

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## Vettester

Good catch 'dec11'. I get these clowns at the supplement store always trying to give me this latest greatest Test Booster.

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## Epic Ed

> Good catch 'dec11'. I get these clowns at the supplement store always trying to give me this latest greatest Test Booster.


No joke. Me, too.

Sorry I didn't see your question to my reply earlier in this thread. I'm taking the flax, omega, and fish oils to assist in getting my HDL up a bit and for joint benefits (real or imagined). I've actually cut back a bit on the fish oil and only run it on days when I'm going with very few carbs. The extra fat might be helpful as an energy source. But, honestly, it's all a crap shoot. I feel about the same as long as I'm taking my multivitamin and vitamin C.

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## n00bs

> Please elaborate. I have my Mom on this as she was not able to work up high enough on regular B3. 
> 
> I was under the impression that slo-niacin/niaspan is simply time release. The flush is much milder due to it not hitting your body all at once - gets spread out. Docs and patients get good results with niaspan. Tell me where I'm wrong here...want to learn.
> 
> I grew up in Australia, good to see an Aussie here who knows his stuff. Don't know why Aus is so regulated though with hormones.


From what i have read livercomplications are seen more often with people using time release and niacinamide...

If she is flushing with each dosage then she isnt taking neough and not often enough as histmaine is building up and then being released again...

1000mg x3 daily is the standard dosage... I started taking 1000mg with breakfast and flushed most days then read more and realised what i was doing wrong.. Switched to 3 times daily and no dramas at all.

want more info look here

http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_niacin.html

cheers

n00bs

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## dec11

> Good catch 'dec11'. I get these clowns at the supplement store always trying to give me this latest greatest Test Booster.


yeah, they are juiced up and try fool kids in2 believing 'this supp got me here'

ZMA was one of my faves before i crossed over, loved that stuff, gave real noticable strength increases, alot better than all the hyped crap

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## eregitano

> whats the point? on trt you are shut down anyway





> Good catch 'dec11'. I get these clowns at the supplement store always trying to give me this latest greatest Test Booster.


works like HGC, keeps the boys nice and strong while on TRT. I swear by it, wake up with a circus tent every morning on ZMA.

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## Epic Ed

> works like HGC, keeps the boys nice and strong while on TRT. I swear by it, wake up with a circus tent every morning on ZMA.


I'm not convinced it's the ZMA that's helping you. I looked into it when considering options for my low T numbers and wasn't impressed by the research:




> In 2004, a study funded by a research grant from Cytodyne (another supplement producing company) with 42 resistance trained males showed that ZMA supplementation had no significant effects on total and free testosterone , IGF-1, growth hormone , cortisol, the ratio of cortisol to testosterone, or muscle and liver enzymes in response to training. No significant effects were observed in changes in strength, upper or lower body muscle endurance, or anaerobic sprint capacity [3].
> 
> In another study done in 2006, a team of German scientists conducted a study on the effect of ZMA and testosterone levels in the body[4]. The result showed an increase in zinc secretions in urine making it much darker like blood, but no effect on the level of testosterone in the body.

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## eregitano

> I'm not convinced it's the ZMA that's helping you. I looked into it when considering options for my low T numbers and wasn't impressed by the research:


I don't feel like it increased T in the body, I do believe that it helps to maintain normal function of T while using TRT. When I didn't use TRT and used ZMA, I felt more even, less of the lows. Frankly I don't know scientifically if it does what I think it does, however I can tell you how it makes me feel.

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## tubs

got a email from my doc today that i thought i would share - don't tell him 

Exercise-Enhancing Supplements
A number of supplements have been shown to promote strength by supporting muscle function. These include: 

Carnitine. Carnitine, an amino acid, helps transport fat into mitochondria, where it is metabolized. Exercise capacity is increased among people with arterial disease following carnitine supplementation (Barker GA et al 2001). In addition, studies show carnitine supplementation increases muscle function and exercise capacity in people with kidney disease (Brass EP et al 1998).

Carnosine. Carnosine is found in high amounts in skeletal muscle; muscle levels of carnosine are elevated during peak activity (Suzuki Y et al 2002). Among other reported advantages, carnosine scavenges free radicals, which is important because exercise produces abundant free radical activity (Boldyrev AA et al 1997; Wang AM et al 2000; Yuneva MO et al 1999; Nagasawa T et al 2001). Additionally, carnosine protects against cross-linking and advanced glycation end product formation, both of which damage protein (Hipkiss AR et al 1995; Munch G et al 1997). Carnosine also acts as a pH buffer, protecting muscles from oxidation during strenuous exercise (Burcham PC et al 2000)

Creatine. Studies show that creatine supplementation effectively increases lean muscle mass and strength (Nissen SL et al 2003; Kreider RB 2003; Gotshalk LA et al 2002). Creatine donates a phosphate molecule to adenosine diphosphate in order to produce more ATP for energy demands. The buildup of lactic acid may also be delayed after creatine supplementation.
Studies support the use of creatine to increase strength in older people (Gotshalk LA et al 2002; Chrusch MJ et al 2001). Other studies demonstrate that creatine can help those with degenerative neurological disorders and enhance memory in older adults (Wyss M et al 2002; Beal MF 2003; Tarnopolsky MA et al 2001; Matthews RT et al 1998; Tabrizi SJ et al 2003; Laakso MP et al 2003; Yeo RA et al 2000; Valenzuela MJ et al 2003; Watanabe A et al 2002; Rae C et al 2003).

Branched-chain amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks of protein. Essential amino acids, which are not synthesized by the human body and must be obtained from outside sources, include phenylalanine, isoleucine, methionine, valine, histidine, arginine, lysine, and leucine. Of these, isoleucine, leucine, and valine are branched-chain amino acids. They improve performance and prevent muscle metabolism during endurance exercise (Workman J 2002; Shimomura Y et al 2006; Ohtani M et al 2006). In a study comparing amino acid and carbohydrate supplements, amino acid supplements improved walking and isometric muscle strength in older participants (Scognamiglio R et al 2004).

Glutamine. Although glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in the body, at times the body cannot produce all the glutamine it needs because of extreme stress caused by surgery, prolonged exercise, or infection (Talbott SM 2003; Workman J 2002; Hendler SS et al 2001; Bassit RA et al 2002). Various studies have shown the beneficial properties of glutamine during exercise. Athletes who engage in strenuous activity are at elevated risk of developing upper respiratory infection. This heightened risk could be due to decreased glutamine as a result of the intensive exercise (Castell LM 2002; Parry-Billings M et al 1990). Glutamine supplementation resulted in a reduction of respiratory infection in a study of marathon runners (Castell LM 1996).

Glutamine, in conjunction with L-cysteine and glycine, helps promote the synthesis of glutathione, a powerful antioxidant, and regulate muscle metabolism (Rennie MJ et al 1998). Glutamine helps build and maintain lean muscle tissue (Workman J 2002). If glutamine levels are low, the body may break down muscle to obtain glutamine, resulting in decreased muscle mass. Supplemental glutamine may prevent this breakdown of muscle as well as promote greater protein synthesis (Antonio J et al 2002; Hankard RG 1996).

Metabolic whey protein. Protein supplementation has been used by fitness enthusiasts and athletes for many years. After exercise, when the body is in a catabolic state, protein supplementation can help protect the body’s muscles from being metabolized for energy. Whey protein, in particular, is easily digestible and immediately available to the body. In a study comparing protein and carbohydrate supplements, participants in the protein group showed greater mechanical muscle function during resistance training than participants in the carbohydrate group (Andersen LL et al 2005).

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine and Phosphatidylcholine. Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) is a phospholipid that contains polyunsaturated fatty acids, including linoleic and linolenic acids. In addition to providing flexibility to the cell membrane, PPC can help maintain plasma choline levels during exercise. Choline, which is depleted during exercise, assists in acetylcholine formation. Acetylcholine is involved in the relay of muscle contraction signals across nerve synapses (Buchman AL et al 2000).

Testosterone Replacement 
Testosterone , the male sex hormone that determines secondary sex characteristics in men, is important to capacity and endurance when exercising. As men age, they gradually lose testosterone in a process called andropause , which is somewhat similar to menopause among women. By age 70, as many as 50 percent of men have deficient or insufficient testosterone levels (Anawalt BD et al 2001). Symptoms of andropause include the loss of bone and muscle mass, depression, weight gain, loss of sexual function, and heart disease. At the same time testosterone is declining, growth hormone levels are dropping (Karakelides H et al 2005).

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## quietasamouse

Methylcobalamin every 3 days
L-Arganine
Multi for Men
D

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## jamotech

Thought id chime in on the vit c, when learning that I had high iron levels I was also told that vitamic c can raise your iron levels. A read on the lef forum suggested that taking your c dose on an empty stomach will not raise your iron levels as it would taking it with food. I take 1g of buffered C (calcium ascorbate, easier on the stomach) first thing in the am with my dhea and pregnenolone, for about 3 months now and its been great. 

Vette, how has your supplement list evolved from the first post in this thread?

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## Vettester

> Vette, how has your supplement list evolved from the first post in this thread?


Still taking the liquid vitamin, EFA's, & amino sculpt. On the B12, I cycle it in every 3 months or so; 250mcg x 1/wk for about 6 weeks. Doctor also added the Drisdol script for vitamin D; 50,000iu x 1/wk (which reminds me I'm overdue to go get that lab retested). Dropped the Niacin and vitamin C. It did absolutely zero (0) for my cholesterol, and my ALT/AST enzymes went through the ceiling (100's). 

Like you, my iron doesn't need any boosts. I'm a carrier for hemochromatosis, with ferritin levels at 1,400+ if left alone. Donating blood solves that problem, as well as keeping other variables in check. DHEA and pregnenolone also get cycled in like the B12, which I'll take for 6 weeks, then a few months off (still going creams, no better way to go IMO).

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## brazilian86

Guys, if I eat really healthy and take 160grams protein daily with a lot of amino acids, do I really need anything else?
I have Chrons disease and the 200mg weekly of cypionate helps a lot!!!

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