# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Mosque approved at Ground Zero

## D7M

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...urdle/?apage=1

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## ALTOP

It isn't right on top of ground zero. It is just a mosque. Also, not all Muslims or Arabs are terrorists.

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## ALTOP

It will still be looked at as a slap in the face by many people. I am sure most everyone can agree on that.

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## stevey_6t9

> It isn't right on top of ground zero. It is just a mosque. Also, not all Muslims or Arabs are terrorists.


but 99% of terrorists are muslims.

i hope the mosque gets blown up if it goes ahead, a little eye for an eye.

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## Ernst

Do they have a right to do it? Yes. But it is in extremely poor taste and I would hope they would recognize that.

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## Flagg

Mosques do not equate to jihad, though having had time to think about it, it's probably a little inappropriate to build so close to Ground Zero. 

But to be honest, a lot of conspiracists still maintain that it the manufactured by the Bush Administration, so a church would equally be as offensive. 

I personally don't care for Churchs or Mosques. I'd prefer a McDonalds instead.

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## MACHINE5150

Not all muslims are terrorists, and any assumption they are is ignorant.

Furthermore, i should inform you that the Religous right in the Southern states of America (i.e. Bush and friends) are far more scary then the religous nuts in Afghanistan.. 

We (Christians/Jews/Muslims) need to move forward and tackle the extremists together.. whether they be Jihadist, Zionists or Witch Hunting Christians...

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## MACHINE5150

> i hope the mosque gets blown up if it goes ahead, a little eye for an eye.


Should Poland not allow christian churches in thier country because Hitler was a chrisitan and not a Catholic??? you can't blame an entire religion for the extremism of a few.. otherwise you wil have to blame all christians in america for the actions of the KKK

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## Colts18

> Not all muslims are terrorists, and any assumption they are is ignorant.
> 
> Furthermore, i should inform you that the *Religous right in the Southern states of America (i.e. Bush and friends) are far more scary then the religous nuts in Afghanistan..* 
> 
> We (Christians/Jews/Muslims) need to move forward and tackle the extremists together.. whether they be Jihadist, Zionists or Witch Hunting Christians...


I hope you don't believe that. I agree that not all muslims are terrorists, and they have been largely stereotyped, but the extremists in the middle east are on a different level than the most extreme racist redneck hick in the south. When was the last time a redneck blew himself up in a market for his god?

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## dec11

it would seem in very poor taste to me, but then any country having a twat like Bush in power for so long is capable of any stupidity

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## n00bs

> Should Poland not allow christian churches in thier country because Hitler was a chrisitan and not a Catholic??? you can't blame an entire religion for the extremism of a few.. otherwise you wil have to blame all christians in america for the actions of the KKK


Umm catholacism is a form of Christianity...

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## lankykid234

Absolutely no big deal with a Mosque being built TWO blocks away from Ground Zero.

Lest we forget, Muslims did die in the WTC attacks. So even if a mosque is built, why can't it be built in the honor of those Muslims who died that day?

America is a place of religious freedom, if Muslim Extremists hate us for that, so be it. They can stay in their own country. Many people immigrated here because of USAs policies, opportunities, and freedom. Why are we going to take it away now?

I'm not a Muslim, but as a guy living in NJ, and getting the view of other Muslims around me, you can tell that the mosque is just a place of worship and not a slap in the face for 9/11 as some people claim it to be.

The World media is making it seem as if Islam and Muslims are the worst thing ever which is entirely untrue. Maybe 0.1% of the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world are terrorist, and the only reason they've been able to cause so much damage is because they have immense funds from the natural resources they are able to consume from the Earth. 

Why are you getting angry at the normal Muslims who are living their day to day lives assimilated in their new culture? It just makes us Americans seem ignorant as shit and it saddens me to see especially since it is 2010.

By the way, my mom lost a good friend on 9/11, and even she isn't against the mosque being built.

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## MACHINE5150

> I hope you don't believe that. I agree that not all muslims are terrorists, and they have been largely stereotyped, but the extremists in the middle east are on a different level than the most extreme racist redneck hick in the south. When was the last time a redneck blew himself up in a market for his god?


blow up yourself in a market = kill 20 people

blow up an entire city with Tomahawk missles = kill thousands..

Bush got elected because the South voted according to thier religous ethics and not what was best for America, therefore they are scarier..

Also, i do believe it was not too long ago that (KKK)were running around the south burning black people alive in the name of "Christ"...

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## MACHINE5150

> Umm catholacism is a form of Christianity...


muslims, jews and christians all derive from the same people and same general principles.. all religions are more similar than one may first percieve

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## LawMan018

> blow up yourself in a market = kill 20 people
> 
> blow up an entire city with Tomahawk missles = kill thousands..
> 
> Bush got elected because the South voted according to thier religous ethics and not what was best for America, therefore they are scarier..
> 
> Also, i do believe it was not too long ago that (KKK)were running around the south burning black people alive in the name of "Christ"...


 I find several things blatantly wrong with some of your information. First of all, unless it's come into light recently, I don't know of any documents that stated Hitler was a Christian. In fact, here is a quote from Hitler himself. 

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

Also, as far as extreme southern right wingers go (aka hicks, hillbillies)... I was never aware of them having access to Tomahawk missiles, let alone the brains to actually fire them. Again, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure this would have made headline news.

And lastly, on the issue this thread was intended for. Sure they can legally build a Mosque there... Sure Muslims were also in the Towers when they fell... But is it right? When the American people hear WTC they think terrorists. When they think terrorists they think Muslims. When they hear a Mosque is being built near ground zero what do they/we think? I think the opinion of the American people should ultimately decide upon the construction of said Mosque. legal or not it's immorally wrong.

P.S. I was never aware Hitler was Polish  :Wink:

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## n00bs

> muslims, jews and christians all derive from the same people and same general principles.. all religions are more similar than one may first percieve


Except we dont go to paradise to have sex with children for killing innocent people in the name our of 'god'.

Nor do we beat women or stone a women to death because she was raped because she is now unclean...

Yep same principles....

Go to Saudi and live see if they give 2 ****s about your point of view or your freedom infidel...

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## stevey_6t9



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## tembe

nothing against muslims but no this is not right

for the ppl that were lost and for the general public...

i would be personally disgusted and im not even american

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## Bluelabel

kind of ironic isnt it.. sick world we live in imo

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## BJJ

> kind of ironic isnt it.. *sick world we live in* imo


Wise words, though I would change them in:

Sick people dwell in this planet.

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

Yes We Can! 

lol


If we all played eye for eye, the world would be blind.


But in this case, **** it, I wouldn't lose any sleep if that place burned to the ground.

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## MACHINE5150

> I find several things blatantly wrong with some of your information. First of all, unless it's come into light recently, I don't know of any documents that stated Hitler was a Christian. In fact, here is a quote from Hitler himself. 
> 
> "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."
> 
> Also, as far as extreme southern right wingers go (aka hicks, hillbillies)... I was never aware of them having access to Tomahawk missiles, let alone the brains to actually fire them. Again, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure this would have made headline news.
> 
> And lastly, on the issue this thread was intended for. Sure they can legally build a Mosque there... Sure Muslims were also in the Towers when they fell... But is it right? When the American people hear WTC they think terrorists. When they think terrorists they think Muslims. When they hear a Mosque is being built near ground zero what do they/we think? I think the opinion of the American people should ultimately decide upon the construction of said Mosque. legal or not it's immorally wrong.
> 
> P.S. I was never aware Hitler was Polish


Sorry, re hitler his mom was Catholic, his dad Christian. The swastika was a cross.. he had many religous (cult like) beliefs and had the Nazi party pursue them.

Not the hillbillies shooting the missles themselves, but voting in idiot like Bush and generally stearing America in the wrong direction.

Never said he was Polish, he was Austrian.


I agree all/most terrorists are Muslim, but not all muslims are terrorists.

Maybe we should put a Mosque on the top of the new tower, then they won't blow it up.. oh wait, yeah they will because the terrorists don't give a shit about religion and only use it as an excuse to kill!!

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## D7M

> Sorry, re hitler his mom was Catholic, his dad Christian. *The swastika was a cross*.. he had many religous (cult like) beliefs and had the Nazi party pursue them.
> 
> Not the hillbillies shooting the missles themselves, but voting in idiot like Bush and generally stearing America in the wrong direction.
> 
> Never said he was Polish, he was Austrian.
> 
> 
> I agree all/most terrorists are Muslim, but not all muslims are terrorists.
> 
> Maybe we should put a Mosque on the top of the new tower, then they won't blow it up.. oh wait, yeah they will because the terrorists don't give a shit about religion and only use it as an excuse to kill!!


Just to be clear here, 

yes the swastika is a type of cross, 

but it's use by Hitler had nothing to do with Christianity.

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## xlxBigSexyxlx



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## D7M

Yes we can!

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## Mooseman33

well i have been on the bench to long...

Fvck the nation of islam, fvck all muslims. every attack on the us in the last 10 years has been from a fcking muslim. 
we have had this fight a thousand times on here.

the main backer of this fvking mosque has said time and time again america is responsible for 9-11....for are ways.
fck this guy, they can have fun finding a construction company to build the fvking thing.
then i hope it fvking burns down.

and for the reference of the KKK, what a fvking joke.
no excuse for them sorry fvcks either, but what a stupid comparison.

if this post offended anyone, well its my views, i guess u can call me ignorant..

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## zabster151

wow, everyone needs to check out these web sites http://ae911truth.org/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/
http://maxkeiser.com/
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

our country is in a lot of trouble; people need to focus.

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## NightWolf

> well i have been on the bench to long...
> 
> Fvck the nation of islam, fvck all muslims. every attack on the us in the last 10 years has been from a fcking muslim. 
> we have had this fight a thousand times on here.
> 
> the main backer of this fvking mosque has said time and time again america is responsible for 9-11....for are ways.
> fck this guy, they can have fun finding a construction company to build the fvking thing.
> then i hope it fvking burns down.
> 
> ...


How DARE you express your views on this PC board?!?!

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## LawMan018

You know... I've had a change of heart. I think they should be allowed to build a Mosque near ground zero... Also, on a lighter note, I'm building a white's only club at the former site of the Lorraine Motel in Memphis Tennessee. You know, where Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated? None of the people attending the club will have any association with him so don't you worry about offending anyone!  :Chairshot:

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## MaNiCC

I agree that not all muslims are terroists, However how could you be sure that the ones going to occupy the mosque wont be filled with extreme ideologies. I personally feel that it would be an insult to the memories of the 9/11 victims if a mosque was built. Why should countries like america and england tip toe round these religions

How long do you think a church would last in a muslim filled area in the middle east?

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> Yes we can!


LOL


Obama just came out in the news the other day in strong support of this building. And Obama knows whats best. 

Can you feel the change guys?!?!  :7up:

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> I agree that not all muslims are terroists, However how could you be sure that the ones going to occupy the mosque wont be filled with extreme ideologies. I personally feel that it would be an insult to the memories of the 9/11 victims if a mosque was built. Why should countries like america and england tip toe round these religions
> 
> How long do you think a church would last in a muslim filled area in the middle east?



Because if you are mean to muslims, they'll kill you. Its like a slap in the face to us Americans, this building. But if they didn't allow it to be built, we would have more bombings out the ass. 

LOL, exactly... like that last point.

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## Mooseman33

have i told u how much i hate muslims/
our president is such a fvking scumbag. im at a lost of words after hearing his scumbag speech giving his scumbag approval.

2012 cant come fas enough........

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## BokBok

Wow. So much ignorance in this thread.

If someone is a terrorist and they say "I'm a muslim", are they truly a Muslim or just some crazy moron?

Educate yourselves before you start hating people just because you don't understand something.

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## LawMan018

> Wow. So much ignorance in this thread.
> 
> If someone is a terrorist and they say "I'm a muslim", are they truly a Muslim or just some crazy moron?
> 
> Educate yourselves before you start hating people just because you don't understand something.


That's exactly what a terrorist would say.

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## MaNiCC

> Wow. So much ignorance in this thread.
> 
> If someone is a terrorist and *they say "I'm a muslim", are they truly a Muslim or just some crazy moron?*
> 
> Educate yourselves before you start hating people just because you don't understand something.


Regardless of their mental state, if they are a believer in and follow islam then they are a muslim. Somebodys state of mind or mental capacity does not change the fact that they are a muslim. What dont we understand? dont you find it weird that there are many muslims who preach and carry out extremeist behaviours? or is it just me noticing the trend? If you have read the qur'an you will notice what maybe be fueling the religious extremeism

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## LawMan018

> Regardless of their mental state, if they are a believer in and follow islam then they are a muslim. Somebodys state of mind or mental capacity does not change the fact that they are a muslim. What dont we understand? dont you find it weird that there are many muslims who preach and carry out extremeist behaviours? or is it just me noticing the trend? If you have read the qur'an you will notice what maybe be fueling the religious extremeism


I still disapprove of the Mosque, however, here's an interesting article from the mosty addicting work friendly website I've come across that might shed some light on common misbeliefs about Islam... 

http://listverse.com/2009/07/10/top-...s-about-islam/

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## Mooseman33

tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.

it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
fvck islam..

i hope that was ignornant enough for u...

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
> start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
> you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.
> 
> it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
> fvck islam..
> 
> i hope that was ignornant enough for u...



lol. And this is why I like you

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## MaNiCC

> tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
> start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
> you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.
> 
> it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
> fvck islam..
> 
> i hope that was ignornant enough for u...


Thats why your my brother

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## beerpong

> tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
> start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
> you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.
> 
> it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
> fvck islam..
> 
> i hope that was ignornant enough for u...



Its know wonder why many people around the world label us as "ignorant" because this thread has ignorance written. all over it. Please take the time to watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2...ture=topvideos

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## stevey_6t9

> tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
> start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
> you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.
> 
> it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
> fvck islam..
> 
> i hope that was ignornant enough for u...


 :2worship:

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## beerpong

> 



Something tells me you watch Fox 40 news and the O'Reilly factor. 

Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever. Grow the Fvck up mate.

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## dangerous dan

Im sick of seeing mosques id love to see every single one of them demolished with all the filth in them

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## beerpong

> Im sick of seeing mosques id love to see every single one of them demolished with all the filth in them



You should start your "crusade" now I'm sure you will have followers by the thousand to help you carry this out.

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## dangerous dan

Yeah its possible, Im sure theres Hundereds of thousands of people british/american who would like them all to leave/ be wiped out, i wouldnt bat an eye lid if my above happend today, as muslims bring no good to the world at all

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## beerpong

Yes maybe but you and the few hundred thousand represent such a small portion of a rational society. Just saying, I or any other American probably wouldn't hesitant for a moment to put a bullet between you or anyone else eyes if a torching of a mosque/church/synagogue/temple would ever become a reality.

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## dangerous dan

:LOL:  mate if your muslim i dont even know why im talking to you if your american sort it out

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## stevey_6t9

> Something tells me you watch Fox 40 news and the O'Reilly factor. 
> 
> Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever. Grow the Fvck up mate.


Ill post what i want on here, its my opinion. Take it like a man.




> mate if your muslim i dont even know why im talking to you if your american sort it out


The dude is obviously a muslim. Not that i have a problem with that.... just i hope he doesnt put a jihad on me.  :Wink/Grin:

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## beerpong

> mate if your muslim i dont even know why im talking to you if your american sort it out


First of all born and raised in the states. Secondly not a Muslim. Lastly sort what out? "i dont even know why im talking to you" I'm wondering the same thing.

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## beerpong

> Ill post what i want on here, its my opinion. Take it like a man.
> 
> 
> 
> The dude is obviously a muslim. Not that i have a problem with that.... just i hope he doesnt put a jihad on me.



Likewise (To first Post)



Ok I guess if i agreed that War Lord President Bush was correct in invading Iraq it would make me more American? How would i put a jihad on you? Dumb Infidel you have so much to learn. Go back to school and get a education.

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## D7M

> Likewise (To first Post)
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I guess if i agreed that War Lord President Bush was correct in invading Iraq it would make me more American and not a Muslim?


Didn't Obama send more troops there, after in his campaign he promised to pull them out?

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## beerpong

> Didn't Obama send more troops there, after in his campaign he promised to pull them out?



I guess there is no easy answer to what is happening in iraq. Pulling our troops will defiantly cause a power vaccum or possibly a civil war. I lost three friends in Iraq/Afghanistan war i want our troops home just a bad as anyone else.

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## D7M

> I guess there is no easy answer to what is happening in iraq. Pulling our troops will defiantly cause a power vaccum or possibly a civil war. I lost three friends in Iraq/Afghanistan war i want our troops home just a bad as anyone else.


You're right, there is no easy answer. 

It's this centuries Vietnam. 

I've lost buddies over there, too. And my brother will *hopefully* be coming back from Iraq in the next month.

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## dangerous dan

> First of all born and raised in the states. Secondly not a Muslim. Lastly sort what out? "i dont even know why im talking to you" I'm wondering the same thing.


Born and raised  :LOL:  

well we wouldnt be having this convo if you fked off back to where ever you come from.

It goes through me talking to you, england/america would be better off without, we have terorists over here living in rented property making bombs ffs, and you wonder why muslims/shiks or whatever you guys prefere to be called are hated, we shouldnt risk having any of you here. Get rid problem solved. Now take your halal meat and stick it up your arse

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## stevey_6t9

> Likewise (To first Post)
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I guess if i agreed that War Lord President Bush was correct in invading Iraq it would make me more American? How would i put a jihad on you? Dumb Infidel you have so much to learn. Go back to school and get a education.


why you having a cry man, its a public forum ill say what i want regarding my beliefs. 

now your calling me an infidel? lol.  :Haha:

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## D7M

I know this is a sensitive subject, 

but I really didn't intend or desire for this thread to turn into a Muslim-bashing flame fest.

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## stevey_6t9

> Born and raised  
> 
> well we wouldnt be having this convo if you fked off back to where ever you come from.
> 
> It goes through me talking to you, england/america would be better off without, we have terorists over here living in rented property making bombs ffs, and you wonder why muslims/shiks or whatever you guys prefere to be called are hated, we shouldnt risk having any of you here. Get rid problem solved. *Now take your halal meat and stick it up your arse*


*
*

gota be careful bro, he beheads those who insult islam.

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## zabster151

the fact that we are building this is discustiing, i understand that we have a legal Muslim community in this country that want to live the USA life style. but this is a slap in every Americans face especially all the firefighters cops and other helpers that are dieing from WTC cough and other ailments. this presidant is not american and should be kicked out of office for high treason because he is trying to sue arizone for inforcing its laws againts imigrants.

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## beerpong

> You're right, there is no easy answer. 
> 
> It's this centuries Vietnam. 
> 
> I've lost buddies over there, too. And my brother will *hopefully* be coming back from Iraq in the next month.


I wish your brother a safe return home when his tour is complete. Respect

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## D7M

> the fact that we are building this is discustiing, i understand that we have a legal Muslim community in this country that want to live the USA life style. but this is a slap in every Americans face especially all the firefighters cops and other helpers that are dieing from WTC cough and other ailments. this presidant is not american and should be kicked out of office for high treason because he is trying to sue arizone for inforcing its laws againts imigrants.


I just saw on the news the other day that apparently there is a Mosque only a few blocks from the new proposed Mosque at Ground Zero. 

Kinda seems redundant now, huh? 





> I wish your brother a safe return home when his tour is complete. Respect


Thanks, man.

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## beerpong

> Born and raised  
> 
> well we wouldnt be having this convo if you fked off back to where ever you come from.
> 
> It goes through me talking to you, england/america would be better off without, we have terorists over here living in rented property making bombs ffs, and you wonder why muslims/shiks or whatever you guys prefere to be called are hated, we shouldnt risk having any of you here. Get rid problem solved. Now take your halal meat and stick it up your arse



Your comments show your maturity. I'm done with you. Piss off.

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## dangerous dan

Sometimes the truth hurts  :Big Grin:

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## beerpong

> the fact that we are building this is discustiing, i understand that we have a legal Muslim community in this country that want to live the USA life style. but this is a slap in every Americans face especially all the firefighters cops and other helpers that are dieing from WTC cough and other ailments. this presidant is not american and should be kicked out of office for high treason because he is trying to sue arizone for inforcing its laws againts imigrants.


How do you figure that. Park 51 is a built as a civic center. It will include a culinary school, basketball court, and a place to warship. Besides it being built a couple block away from the WTC in abandoned Burlington Coat Factory. Obama is christian not a Muslim where are you getting your "facts"? High treason? I agree with Arizona that it has a right to protect its border sfrom illegal immigrants. I don't believe in amnesty for the immigrants either.

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## beerpong

> Sometimes the truth hurts


Far from it lol. Believe what you want you delusional kid.

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## dangerous dan

what makes me delusional?

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## beerpong

> [/B]
> 
> gota be careful bro, he beheads those who insult islam.


Lemme guess your ancestors where exiled convicts shipped from England to Australia? Your a dying breed i have nothing further to say to you.

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## zabster151

> How do you figure that. Park 51 is a built as a civic center. It will include a culinary school, basketball court, and a place to warship. Besides it being built a couple block away from the WTC in abandoned Burlington Coat Factory. Obama is christian not a Muslim where are you getting your "facts"? High treason? I agree with Arizona that it has a right to protect its border sfrom illegal immigrants. I don't believe in amnesty for the immigrants either.



he is a Muslim through and through his real name is Barry Soetoro he was born in Indonesia. He is a front man for the banks presidents are nothing but Pr men you need to learn that this is way bigger then Barry Soetoro. Here is a couple site to research whats really going on www.prisonplanet.com www.maxkeiser.com www.ae911truth.org Muslems are not the problem its are government and the banks. just the fact that the government would even fund something like this after the government says muslims crashed air plains into are buildings killing americans. its a slap in americans faces. has anyone ever thought about when 9/11 happend there were three buildings that collapsed demolition style when only two building were hit. O yea the third building just so happens to have all the information about banks AIG Cite group leamin brothers pretty much all the places that got bailouts. 

do not trust ANYTHING mainstream news tells you. 9/11 was an inside job to start the war and then the war againts the american ppl the end game is a bank global takeover

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

lol...

**grabs popcorn**

on a side note, I vote for a spelling and grammar check button. I feel my IQ dropping around here. haha  :Smilie:

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## zabster151

http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-ba...-cia-creation/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/bristol/...00/8855460.stm

http://politics.nytimes.com/congress...11/house/2/473

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## Ridla

Its a community center. open to all. the top 2 floors are prayer space. All other religion are also welcome to pray there. What a bunch of tools!
Chew on this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

Olbermann is a ****ing idiot.


Religion of peace! But if you don't follow them, you're an enemy and must die!

But they do so "In the name of god", so we'll let them continue their shit.

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## stevey_6t9

> Lemme guess your ancestors where exiled convicts shipped from England to Australia? Your a dying breed i have nothing further to say to you.


lol bro cmon you serious?

ok ill have a turn at imaginating your background.

you were a little smelly arab during operation desert storm living in a mud hut, and papa mohamed akmuhd hussein was fighting the americans where he was promised 40 virgins to paradise if he died. they destroyed your home so you were forced to pray to allah for halal meat for your kebabs that never came. you put a jihad on all westerns and joined the UN asylum seekers list where you begged to come to america and vowed to make fertilizer bombs in your garage and avenge your dad?

----------


## beerpong

> lol bro cmon you serious?
> 
> ok ill have a turn at imaginating your background.
> 
> you were a little smelly arab during operation desert storm living in a mud hut, and papa mohamed akmuhd hussein was fighting the americans where he was promised 40 virgins to paradise if he died. they destroyed your home so you were forced to pray to allah for halal meat for your kebabs that never came. you put a jihad on all westerns and joined the UN asylum seekers list where you begged to come to america and vowed to make fertilizer bombs in your garage and avenge your dad?


Sounds like a sad tale of your life stevey. I'm sure after your suicide bombing you will get those 40 virgins your dad was promised. Or you can join the religion of peace demonstrations in Europe i'm sure a sick fvck like you would fit right in.

----------


## beerpong

> Olbermann is a ****ing idiot.
> 
> 
> Religion of peace! But if you don't follow them, you're an enemy and must die!
> 
> But they do so "In the name of god", so we'll let them continue their shit.



If you are referring to the religion of peace demonstrations those protester in London are idiots. No one cares what a handful of fvcking dumb radicals have to say. They can go fvck themselves they are just sick disturbed individuals.

----------


## stevey_6t9

> Sounds like a sad tale of your life stevey. I'm sure after your suicide bombing you will get those 40 virgins your dad was promised lol.


lol its your life i told you. your house was in iraq, next to the anti israel signs...remember? and in your mud hut living room is the family album, a pic of you and papa...



haha what are you talking about? your trying to take everything and reverse it on me.

----------


## beerpong

> lol its your life i told you. your house was in iraq, next to the anti israel signs...remember? and in your mud hut living room is the family album, a pic of you and papa...
> 
> 
> 
> haha what are you talking about? your trying to take everything and reverse it on me.


I don't ever remember ever sharing my life story with you. Let alone talk to a delusional child. So stop posting pictures of your dad and yourself on this forum you will get no sympathy on this thread. Deal with your dads lose some other way.

----------


## stevey_6t9

> I don't ever remember ever sharing my life story with you. Let alone talk to a delusional child. So stop posting pictures of your dad and yourself on this forum you will get no sympathy on this thread. Deal with your dads lose some other way.


lmao you make me laugh.

you did share your life story with me!

here ill show you...




> I was just a boy when the infidels came to my village in their Black Hawk helicopters. The infidels fired at the oil fields and they lit up like the eyes of Allah. Burning oil rained down from the sky and cooked everything it touched. I could only hide myself and cry as my goats were consumed by the firey black liquid death. In the midst of the chaos, I could swear that I heard my goats... screaming for help. As quickly as they'd come, the infidels were gone. It was on that day... I put a jihad on them.... And if you don't believe it, then you better kill me now... cause I'll put a jihad on you too.


hahahahahaahah!!  :1laugh:

----------


## G.P.

I don't really have a problem with mosques in general. There were mosques fairly close to there before 911 & it's not being built right on ground zero. I wonder what would be considered "far enough" away?
I have done 3 tours over the last several years, & while everyone that was trying to kill me I'm pretty sure was a muslim, I also made quite a few good friends that were muslim. 
The terrorists & jihads are a separate "right wing" sect & do not strictly follow islam. I would compare them to the far right groups we have here as well. The general population over there doesn't agree with or condone those types of actions. I think the media has blown this thing up (no pun intended) into far more than it is. I don't where we draw the line at freedom of religion, but if we start drawing too many lines then we no longer have that freedom, which is one of the many freedoms this country has that I'm willing to fight & die for even if I don't always agree with it.
BTW my dog tags say Protestant, but I don't actively practice any religion other than praying when sh*t is landing all around me.

----------


## Mooseman33

every night i go to bed,i make the same wish...

All fvkin muslims would be gone forever.(.except Cal)...

----------


## beerpong

What ever helps you sleep better. Unfortunately I have a life, friends, job, and school and i cant play these games with you all night. I have two more semester i have to concentrate on upon receiving my BA in accounting and joining the workforce. I have goals sadly something you should try working on. So please stay and waste your life on this thread/forum parrot same bs that you have on all 2300 of your posts. Later tool.

----------


## beerpong

> I don't really have a problem with mosques in general. There were mosques fairly close to there before 911 & it's not being built right on ground zero. I wonder what would be considered "far enough" away?
> I have done 3 tours over the last several years, & while everyone that was trying to kill me I'm pretty sure was a muslim, I also made quite a few good friends that were muslim. 
> The terrorists & jihads are a separate "right wing" sect & do not strictly follow islam. I would compare them to the far right groups we have here as well. The general population over there doesn't agree with or condone those types of actions. I think the media has blown this thing up (no pun intended) into far more than it is. I don't where we draw the line at freedom of religion, but if we start drawing too many lines then we no longer have that freedom, which is one of the many freedoms this country has that I'm willing to fight & die for even if I don't always agree with it.
> BTW my dog tags say Protestant, but I don't actively practice any religion other than praying when sh*t is landing all around me.



Agreed x2. Respect brother.

----------


## zabster151

We can not say no to the mosques because that would be stepping on are own freedom to practice whatever religion you want. but it would just be more respectful to not put it wright there' since the government says Muslims blew the buildings up. but this president know nothing of respect he wants are gun rights taken away he wants to shut down the Net he just spent another 58.6 billion on war in Iraq bailed out car companies banks insurance companies paid huge bonuses to ppl who screwed us horribly lets see what els. just asking to stir people up with this mosc bullS#$t but thats what they want to do distract you from whats really going on.

----------


## stevey_6t9

> What ever helps you sleep better. Unfortunately I have a life, friends, job, and school and i cant play these games with you all night. I have two more semester i have to concentrate on upon receiving my BA in accounting and joining the workforce. I have goals sadly something you should try working on. So please stay and waste your life on this thread/forum parrot same bs that you have on all 2300 of your posts. Later tool.


 :Haha:

----------


## HoRuS

We are all on this site because we all have the same interest in strength training or bodybuilding. See what religion does to people? It divides people based on their religious beliefs. 

I'm an Atheist and I believe in science. If I want to get huge, I'll look to science to help me, not pray to some fictional God to make me huge. If I am sick or injured, I'll count on science to help fix my problems, I wont sit at home bleeding to death, praying to a fictional God to "Please stop the bleeding".

Zeitgeist

----------


## zabster151

> tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
> start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
> you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.
> 
> it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
> fvck islam..
> 
> i hope that was ignornant enough for u...


you have no clue what your talking about. Don't you get it we have been in these peoples country for 100 years plus just like we post up in other countries and they don't want us there. America forces itself on other countries for its own personal gains. what the [email protected]$k would you do if Russia came over to the US and said we want you do everything are way. you better believe there would be a group of citizens gather up to try and stop this. the news would make up some bad sounding name for the people fighting back against Russia just to make us look bad. its exactly whats going on there. but it is at a boiling point because they do not want us there at all 
"realize this" we have thousands of documents from soldiers and generals independent journalist that have more then enough proof to show that the soldiers are protecting opium fields and killing innocent people women and children. o yea history lesson for ya Russia ruined its country back when they try ed to control Muslim nation for personal gains and Russia collapsed just like America will if we keep waisting resources just like the soviets in this never ending battle

o yea every building blown up in America was done by CIA not Islam "sorry" research before you through a statement out that you know nothing about.

----------


## BJJ

> We are all on this site because we all have the same interest in strength training or bodybuilding. See what religion does to people? It divides people based on their religious beliefs. 
> 
> I'm an Atheist and *I believe in science. If I want to get huge, I'll look to science to help me, not pray to some fictional God to make me huge. If I am sick or injured, I'll count on science to help fix my problems, I wont sit at home bleeding to death, praying to a fictional God to "Please stop the bleeding"*.
> 
> Zeitgeist


Said by someone who is named HoRuS...  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## BJJ

> you have no clue what your talking about. Don't you get it we have been in these peoples country for 100 years plus just like we post up in other countries and they don't want us there. America forces itself on other countries for its own personal gains. what the [email protected]$k would you do if Russia came over to the US and said we want you do everything are way. you better believe there would be a group of citizens gather up to try and stop this. the news would make up some bad sounding name for the people fighting back against Russia just to make us look bad. its exactly whats going on there. but it is at a boiling point because they do not want us there at all 
> "realize this" we have thousands of documents from soldiers and generals independent journalist that have more then enough proof to show that the soldiers are protecting opium fields and killing innocent people women and children. o yea history lesson for ya Russia ruined its country back when they try ed to control Muslim nation for personal gains and Russia collapsed just like America will if we keep waisting resources just like the soviets in this never ending battle
> 
> o yea every building blown up in America was done by CIA not Islam "sorry" research before you through a statement out that you know nothing about.


History repeats itself...

America is not different from Russia, Russia is not different from China, China in not different from Iran, Iran is not different from South Africa...

The human being is the problem.

----------


## zabster151

Nice BJJ, zeitgeist good job 

exactly we are all the same 

BJJ did you check out my hyperlinks

maybe i can prey to get bigger. ill start today see what happens in a week. hahahahahahaha

science over religion any day. atheist here

----------


## HoRuS

> Said by someone who is named HoRuS...


haha, I like ancient Egyptian mythology, hence the name. I don't actually believe in any Gods. I believe aliens technology helped ancient Egyptians build the pyramids.

I also believe what zabster151 is saying is correct. Blaming religions is an easy way to build hatred and cover up the real truth.

----------


## HoRuS

> you have no clue what your talking about. Don't you get it we have been in these peoples country for 100 years plus just like we post up in other countries and they don't want us there. America forces itself on other countries for its own personal gains. what the [email protected]$k would you do if Russia came over to the US and said we want you do everything are way. you better believe there would be a group of citizens gather up to try and stop this. the news would make up some bad sounding name for the people fighting back against Russia just to make us look bad. its exactly whats going on there. but it is at a boiling point because they do not want us there at all 
> "realize this" we have thousands of documents from soldiers and generals independent journalist that have more then enough proof to show that the soldiers are protecting opium fields and killing innocent people women and children. o yea history lesson for ya Russia ruined its country back when they try ed to control Muslim nation for personal gains and Russia collapsed just like America will if we keep waisting resources just like the soviets in this never ending battle
> 
> o yea every building blown up in America was done by CIA not Islam "sorry" research before you through a statement out that you know nothing about.


I didn't understand why CIA showed up as a keyword until I clicked on it. I should have known it had something to do with a bunch of cocks.

----------


## zabster151

Horus i love the avatar pic 

yep wright there with ya aliens technology helped ancient Egyptians build the pyramids and more.

----------


## HoRuS

> Horus i love the avatar pic 
> 
> yep wright there with ya aliens technology helped ancient Egyptians build the pyramids and more.


Thanks mate.
I saw a program about ancient astronauts and we have obviously been visited thousands of years ago and likely many times since. Egyptian carvings showed spacecraft and men with helmets and spacesuits. Australian Aboriginal cave paintings show similar things. Apparently many of the carvings were cut from the stone and now the Catholic church are in possession of them. I guess they just couldn't hide all the fossil proof of dinosaurs and evolution.

----------


## D7M

> Thanks mate.
> I saw a program about ancient astronauts and we have obviously been visited thousands of years ago and likely many times since. Egyptian carvings showed spacecraft and men with helmets and spacesuits. Australian Aboriginal cave paintings show similar things. Apparently many of the carvings were cut from the stone and now the Catholic church are in possession of them. I guess they just couldn't hide all the fossil proof of dinosaurs and evolution.


I don't know if the RCC has stolen and hidden ancient carvings. I'm not going to debate that. 

But: 1) The Catholic Church admits that there is the possibility of alien life, and 2) believing in a type of evolution is completely compatible with the Catholic faith.

----------


## Ridla

> Olbermann is a ****ing idiot.
> 
> 
> Religion of peace! But if you don't follow them, you're an enemy and must die!
> 
> But they do so "In the name of god", so we'll let them continue their shit.


I am sorry that you are mis-informed. U are not an enemy for being a non- muslim. There is no killing a person for not being muslim. The verses you are refering to in the Qur'an are refering to warfare. Keep the verses context then speak. I was once like you but I soon found myself to be a muslim, by keeping the versesin context.

----------


## HoRuS

> I don't know if the RCC has stolen and hidden ancient carvings. I'm not going to debate that. 
> 
> But: 1) The Catholic Church admits that there is the possibility of alien life, and 2) believing in a type of evolution is completely compatible with the Catholic faith.


I wouldn't be debating that either. I have no proof. I'm just stating what was said in the documentary I saw. Its a bit like the wooden model of an airplane at the Cairo Museum that disappeared from display into the cellar. http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/ast.html

I heard that the Pope admitted to the possibility of other lifeforms but I didn't know any form of evolution fitted in with their beliefs. Not that I know much about any religion. Definately not my thing.

----------


## zabster151

the churches have stolen lots of things manny are hidden deep underground the church and nobody is aloowed to see this stuff. give me a break all churches should be burnt down and forgotten about. these motherF#$ers are molesting children every day they just got caught molesting 40 disabled and blind children. there was also a bust in the USA of 50 churches throughout the country sharing child porn. now here is the worst part they have been caught and have admitted to doing this and said sorry. WE DO NOT PRESS CHARGES it makes me sick all these people have to do is say sorry and prey and they can get away with anything. it already bad enough these F#@ks don't work get money from people who do work and don't pay taxes seriously common, o yea i think its really funny how people find god in jail or prison. give me a break people find god or become paster because there a bitch who cant work want a free ride and tell everyone els how to live. F#$k that what a joke everyone follows like a sheep. pathetic,

----------


## D7M

> the churches have stolen lots of things manny are hidden deep underground the church and nobody is aloowed to see this stuff. give me a break all churches should be burnt down and forgotten about. these motherF#$ers are molesting children every day they just got caught molesting 40 disabled and blind children. there was also a bust in the USA of 50 churches throughout the country sharing child porn. now here is the worst part they have been caught and have admitted to doing this and said sorry. WE DO NOT PRESS CHARGES it makes me sick all these people have to do is say sorry and prey and they can get away with anything. it already bad enough these F#@ks don't work get money from people who do work and don't pay taxes seriously common, o yea i think its really funny how people find god in jail or prison. give me a break people find god or become pastures because there a bitches who cant work want a free ride and tell everyone els how to live. F#$k that what a joke everyone follows like a sheep. pathetic,


why don't you tell us how you really feel.  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## zabster151

i know i get crazy about this stuff lol, i do lots of research. good times

----------


## Aussiebb

I hardly see muslims as a threat.

Back when the afghans were fighting the soviets, america opend up all the borders and corridors for the muslims from any country to fight the soviets. Even non muslims went and fought with the afghans against the russians.Then alqaeda was established, alqaeda meaning "the base in arabic" wasnt even started or invented my bin ladin, but just meant the base where all the foreign fighters went to train and register to fight the russians.

President carter even called the muslims "freedom fighters"

After the war with the russians, all the foreign fighters went home, cause the afghans didnt want them once the job had be done.Only hand full mujuhideen stayed back.Bin ladin stayed with his 5 people, all of a sudden bin ladin and 5 people where are threat to the entire world.Whenever bin ladin did a press conference or went to a training camp, he was just using those people as a photo shoot opportunity to show that he was strong and that he had a big following.But he never had a folllowing.

The taliban even offered america to hand over bin ladin, but the US rejected that idea.

----------


## warchild

plain and simple its bad taste and it should not happen

----------


## Mooseman33

> you have no clue what your talking about. Don't you get it we have been in these peoples country for 100 years plus just like we post up in other countries and they don't want us there. America forces itself on other countries for its own personal gains. what the [email protected]$k would you do if Russia came over to the US and said we want you do everything are way. you better believe there would be a group of citizens gather up to try and stop this. the news would make up some bad sounding name for the people fighting back against Russia just to make us look bad. its exactly whats going on there. but it is at a boiling point because they do not want us there at all 
> "realize this" we have thousands of documents from soldiers and generals independent journalist that have more then enough proof to show that the soldiers are protecting opium fields and killing innocent people women and children. o yea history lesson for ya Russia ruined its country back when they try ed to control Muslim nation for personal gains and Russia collapsed just like America will if we keep waisting resources just like the soviets in this never ending battle
> 
> *o yea every building blown up in America was done by CIA not Islam "sorry" research before you through a statement out that you know nothing about*.


i guess ur research told u that.....what a fvking joke.
do u people really believe what u type....fvk man, u are one dumb bird.\
dont tell me i dont no what im talking about, then spew some shit like u did..

just answer a question,
u say that america has been forcing itself on other countries, do u believe that america was to blame for 9-11 because our policies?

do u think america deserved what has happened then and since then in the name of some scumbag allah.

i dont, and i wish death on everyone who does..........

----------


## HoRuS

If you think George Bush didn't have advanced knowledge of the 9-11 attack, then explain this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlWSv0NZBRw

----------


## spywizard

> Do they have a right to do it? Yes. But it is in extremely poor taste and I would hope they would recognize that.



Then you don't understand the culture.. for them it is a sign that the USA is weak, and that Allah wills them to continue their behavior.. 

just another point of view..

----------


## BJJ

> the churches have stolen lots of things manny are hidden deep underground the church and nobody is aloowed to see this stuff. give me a break all churches should be burnt down and forgotten about. these motherF#$ers are molesting children every day they just got caught molesting 40 disabled and blind children. there was also a bust in the USA of 50 churches throughout the country sharing child porn. now here is the worst part they have been caught and have admitted to doing this and said sorry. WE DO NOT PRESS CHARGES it makes me sick all these people have to do is say sorry and prey and they can get away with anything. it already bad enough these F#@ks don't work get money from people who do work and don't pay taxes seriously common, o yea i think its really funny how people find god in jail or prison. give me a break people find god or become paster because there a bitch who cant work want a free ride and tell everyone els how to live. F#$k that what a joke everyone follows like a sheep. pathetic,


You are speaking about the human being...

However, if interested in the Vatican:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=423372

So you will get even more angry!  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## BJJ

*9/11 Was a setup.

Educate yourself guys since the worst thing could happen to a human being is to ignore a subject and the problem is, we are all ignorant somehow; that is why they can easily rule us:*




> Provide a link please BJJ and i would be more than happy too.
> 
> What have you been schooled in?


I copied and pasted (http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...#post4998515):

by the way, I have a degree in mathematics (astronomical orientation) and a degree in theology.




> This thread is taking another direction from marcus's original question.
> 
> Being a lover of mathematical sciences, I can tell you I am happy someone on this planet decided to use his mind.
> The problem is not how the twin towers came down but the fact common people ignore the importance of mathematics in our own lifes.
> By making quite simple calculations, and in the video there is some sort of accuracy, it is clear those towers' inner hardware could not be molten.
> 
> 9/11 is the perfect example of cause/effect/solution.
> They cause a problem which creates fear in order to carry out a solution.
> This has been done in history many other times and I am afraid it will be done again.





> I do not believe in BS either, that is why I use my brain to develop thoughts!
> 
> Once marcus asked me in my interview:
> _marcus300: If there is one thing in the world you could change, what would it be?
> BJJ: Ignorance. (Those who rule us can keep doing that because ignorance is well spread-out)._
> 
> You are the perfect example of those who I was referring to (no offence).
> 
> I am going to explain you now, why those sckyscrapers could not be molten in that way, apologizing for my English but I am not a native speaker:
> ...

----------


## BJJ

By Mr. Rose...



> 





> Ok BJJ the working is above.
> 
> For the rest of you guys.
> 
> People say the towers fell due to a pancake affect. If this was true to tower would take over 100 seconds for it to collapse, and the internal structure WILL STILL BE STANDING.
> 
> Like BJJ stated, the actual tower took around 11 seconds to collapse. Now in a vacuum the tower would take 9.18 seconds to collapse. So the only thing that gets close to that type of fall is a PLANED DEMOLITION! 
> 
> It is IMPOSSIBLE for the tower to fall in 11 seconds with the 'pan cake' effect. My maths above proves that the towers fell in a matter that would only indicate a planned demolition or such along those lines.
> ...


*
Double check done.
Do you need a third one?*

----------


## BJJ

Sorry D7M to stear away from the meaning of your thread...

----------


## D7M

Not at all, BJJ. 

Interesting addition....

----------


## stevey_6t9

i dont think 9/11 was a set-up. there always going to be conspirists. 
people think JFK was set-up, 2pac i still alive, area 51 is run by aliens lol.

heres also what i found... i guess its you BJJ against a few institutes lol

The controlled demolition hypothesis is rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and by the American Society of Civil Engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers.[

----------


## zabster151

> i guess ur research told u that.....what a fvking joke.
> do u people really believe what u type....fvk man, u are one dumb bird.\
> dont tell me i dont no what im talking about, then spew some shit like u did..
> 
> just answer a question,
> u say that america has been forcing itself on other countries, do u believe that america was to blame for 9-11 because our policies?
> 
> do u think america deserved what has happened then and since then in the name of some scumbag allah.
> 
> i dont, and i wish death on everyone who does..........


my research shows me the truth. and if you cant see that 9/11 was a paid inside job by the government. your not to intelligent READ THIS READ THIS READ THIS READ THIS http://ae911truth.org/

so to answer your question. yes it was an inside job by are government and yes americas policies are retarded they craped on all of are rights with home land security comon think now there trying to take away are gun rights look at the signs they want you weak and broke

----------


## HoRuS

> i dont think 9/11 was a set-up. there always going to be conspirists. 
> people think JFK was set-up, 2pac i still alive, area 51 is run by aliens lol.
> 
> heres also what i found... i guess its you BJJ against a few institutes lol
> 
> The controlled demolition hypothesis is rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and by the American Society of Civil Engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers.[


It's not just BJJ against a few institutions. There are many individuals and organisations who don't blindly accept what the mainstream media tell us. The sad thing is that the majority of people don't want to think that such horrific things are happening around them and they choose to believe what the government tells them. They only start to question things when their own little piece of life is interferred with.

People have no idea what is going on around them. Large Pharmaceutical companies are raking in billions of dollars by creating markets for medications that were not previously needed. Research Antidepressant use in Japan. Look into a book by investigative journalist Ethan Watters called Crazy like Us. Go to Fora TV and watch Ethans interview about his book. http://fora.tv/2010/02/04/Ethan_Watt...merican_Psyche

Look into the effects of Fluoride on Humans. Fluoride is added to our drinking water under the pretext of being for good dental health but the effects of Flouride on humans has similar effects to antidepressant and antipsychotic medications. It makes you calmer, more compliant, more sedate and less agressive. Basically making you easier to control.

Start researching Freemasonry, New World Order and Illuminati. Look into Freemasonry in Rap and Hip Hop music and how certain Rappers music is aimed at making young men want to become soldiers (Souljas) and to give their lives for their country. There are so many examples of how we are being controlled and decieved but many don't want to open their eyes so long as their little piece of life is running smoothly.

----------


## zabster151

> It's not just BJJ against a few institutions. There are many individuals and organisations who don't blindly accept what the mainstream media tell us. The sad thing is that the majority of people don't want to think that such horrific things are happening around them and they choose to believe what the government tells them. They only start to question things when their own little piece of life is interferred with.
> 
> People have no idea what is going on around them. Large Pharmaceutical companies are raking in billions of dollars by creating markets for medications that were not previously needed. Research Antidepressant use in Japan. Look into a book by investigative journalist Ethan Watters called Crazy like Us. Go to Fora TV and watch Ethans interview about his book. http://fora.tv/2010/02/04/Ethan_Watt...merican_Psyche
> 
> Look into the effects of Fluoride on Humans. Fluoride is added to our drinking water under the pretext of being for good dental health but the effects of Flouride on humans has similar effects to antidepressant and antipsychotic medications. It makes you calmer, more compliant, more sedate and less agressive. Basically making you easier to control.
> 
> Start researching Freemasonry, New World Order and Illuminati. Look into Freemasonry in Rap and Hip Hop music and how certain Rappers music is aimed at making young men want to become soldiers (Souljas) and to give their lives for their country. There are so many examples of how we are being controlled and decieved but many don't want to open their eyes so long as their little piece of life is running smoothly.


well said, o yea NIST "NATIONAL INSTITUE OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY" changed there report several times because they were caught lying and putting impossible mathematics to show how the buildings fell,

----------


## D7M

> It's not just BJJ against a few institutions. There are many individuals and organisations who don't blindly accept what the mainstream media tell us. The sad thing is that the majority of people don't want to think that such horrific things are happening around them and they choose to believe what the government tells them. They only start to question things when their own little piece of life is interferred with.
> 
> *People have no idea what is going on around them. Large Pharmaceutical companies are raking in billions of dollars by creating markets for medications that were not previously needed.* Research Antidepressant use in Japan. Look into a book by investigative journalist Ethan Watters called Crazy like Us. Go to Fora TV and watch Ethans interview about his book. http://fora.tv/2010/02/04/Ethan_Watt...merican_Psyche
> 
> *Look into the effects of Fluoride on Humans*. Fluoride is added to our drinking water under the pretext of being for good dental health but the effects of Flouride on humans has similar effects to antidepressant and antipsychotic medications. It makes you calmer, more compliant, more sedate and less agressive. Basically making you easier to control.
> 
> Start researching Freemasonry, New World Order and Illuminati. Look into Freemasonry in Rap and Hip Hop music and how certain Rappers music is aimed at making young men want to become soldiers (Souljas) and to give their lives for their country. There are so many examples of how we are being controlled and decieved but many don't want to open their eyes so long as their little piece of life is running smoothly.


Interesting to note that the FDA approved prozac for public use, and one of the main ingredients in it is fluoride. 

Google it if you don't believe me. 

Now why in hell would the FDA approve something like that?

----------


## HoRuS

> Interesting to note that the FDA approved prozac for public use, and one of the main ingredients in it is fluoride. 
> 
> Google it if you don't believe me. 
> 
> Now why in hell would the FDA approve something like that?


Because it all comes back to $$$$$ and the profits for the organisations that control our governments. Watch the interview with Ethan Watters and see how America payed of hundreds of top Psychiatrists to convince Japanese people that Depression wasn't a normal part of life and something that builds character and toughness. America exported their beliefs that everyone should always be happy and all it takes is a pill. Prozac now has a billion dollar per year market in Japan where antidepressants were not previously used.

The FDA is influenced by Pharmaceutical companies and most likely big dollar donations.

Political parties in Australia get massive cash donations from Pharmaceutical companies and in exchange enforce laws so that cheap generic brands of the same drugs can not be imported into Australia and take profits away from the Pharmaceutical companies that support our Political parties.

----------


## HoRuS

check this link http://www.preferrednetwork.com/FLUORIDE_STUPIDITY.htm

----------


## HoRuS

Even genetically modified foods are being introduced so they have more controll over us. We will become dependant on certain companies for all our food supplies because only certain genetically modified crops will survive in the future. Once they have engineered the crops that they want, they will introduce diseases that will wipe out all competitors that are not growning the GM crops. If you control the food, you control the population. We are letting this happen right now.

----------


## zabster151

good job horus wright on target with whats going on.

----------


## HoRuS

> good job horus wright on target with whats going on.


Thanks zabster151

I only wish more people would do research and make their own informed decisions. 

It seems that most members here are smart enough to research their own drug usage and not blindly believe what Doctors tell you about your test levels etc, but when it comes to other things I think many become lazy and can't be bothered to research the facts. 

So many things are affecting our health and the only person who cares about your health in preferance to making money is yourself.

Open your eyes and minds people. Research and don't believe what the media or government tells you.

----------


## BJJ

> i dont think 9/11 was a set-up. there always going to be conspirists. 
> people think JFK was set-up, 2pac i still alive, area 51 is run by aliens lol.
> 
> heres also what i found... *i guess its you BJJ against a few institutes* lol
> 
> The controlled demolition hypothesis is rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and by the American Society of Civil Engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers.[


I am sorry for you but no; it is truth against ignorance.

In the 9/11 case, only those who know math can easily understand what really happened and either Mr. Rose and I wasted our times to open some member's eyes... I will not make that mistake again after having figured out the results.

----------


## zabster151

yep lost of physics teachers and engineers were scratching there heads at the NIST report. round the globe

----------


## stevey_6t9

> I am sorry for you but no; it is truth against ignorance.
> 
> In the 9/11 case, only those who know math can easily understand what really happened and either Mr. Rose and I wasted our times to open some member's eyes... I will not make that mistake again after having figured out the results.


lol it was rejected but ok, ill let you have it if it makes you feel better. :Haha:

----------


## BJJ

> lol it was rejected but ok, ill let you have it if it makes you feel better.


Thanks you are so kind, unfortunately you CANNOT reject something you are unaware of. Are you able to understand this simple fact?

Rejecting those calculations would mean you have the skill to do them by yourself and in case find mistakes to correct for reviewing the final results and show those towers did not come down because of a planned demolition.

As I already told you once, you are still too young and the way you keep coming in my threads or reply to my posts, shows it all...

First grow up bambino, then you may have a chance to be considered.

Enough time wasted on this subject and do not speak about the towers...

----------


## beerpong

"I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves." quoted by Ernesto Guevara. I don't know if you guys watched the movie Che but i was really inspiring. He fights a two year campaign overthrowing U.S.-backed Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batist. Its a must watch, anyways I agree with BJJ and zabster a lot of people rather have their govt doing their thinking for them than them doing it themselves. Too much ignorance in our country. A revolutionary like Che come around every few hundred years.

----------


## beerpong

> Thanks you are so kind, unfortunately you CANNOT reject something you are unaware of. Are you able to understand this simple fact?
> 
> Rejecting those calculations would mean you have the skill to do them by yourself and in case find mistakes to correct for reviewing the final results and show those towers did not come down because of a planned demolition.
> 
> As I already told you once, you are still too young and the way you keep coming in my threads or reply to my posts, shows it all...
> 
> First grow up bambino, then you may have a chance to be considered.
> 
> Enough time wasted on this subject and do not speak about the towers...


Don't stress BJJ. He likes throwing in his two cents without having any facts or support to back up the SHIT that comes out of his mouth.

----------


## Flagg

Isn't it funny that when it comes to anything that can benefit someone, they throw themselves on the logic of Science and Math, yet when it's something that's outside of their opinions or attitudes, the "Science" and "Math" is refuted as "theory" and "not proven" or "conspiracy". 

1 + 1 = 2. But if suddenly that simple equation could prove that there was no God, would 1 + 1 = 3?

Selective hearing.

----------


## BJJ

> Isn't it funny that when it comes to anything that can benefit someone, they throw themselves on the logic of Science and Math, yet when it's something that's outside of their opinions or attitudes, the "Science" and "Math" is refuted as "theory" and "not proven" or "conspiracy". 
> 
> 1 + 1 = 2. But if suddenly that simple equation *could prove that there was no God*, would 1 + 1 = 3?
> 
> Selective hearing.


The problem is that cannot be proved with 100% certainty.
Obviously, nobody can prove the opposite with 100% sureness.

...and the debate goes on till our death  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## stevey_6t9

> Don't stress BJJ. He likes throwing in his two cents without having any facts or support to back up the SHIT that comes out of his mouth.


lol no facts? i just pointed out two solid references for my statement. 

your still whinging like a girl

----------


## HoRuS

> lol *it was rejected* but ok, ill let you have it if it makes you feel better.


*The use of Anabolic Steroids, Growth Hormone, Insulin and other controlled substances for the purpose of bodybuilding has also been rejected by the majority of the medical field.* The majority of medical professionals will tell you that all these substances are very dangerous if taken for bodybuilding purposes and obviously the mainstream media has a field day with any bad publicity they can create or manipulate to make us all think that these facts are all true. 

Instead of blindly believing all this crap, we all come here and exchange information and do our own research online about the affects of these substances. We then make an informed decision after finding out the real truth, instead of what the government tells us and we either decide to use these substances or not based on our own findings.

BJJ and Mr Rose have the abilities and mathematical skills to prove to themselves that what the government says about the cause of the towers collapsing just doesn't add up. So they reject those explanations just like most of us here reject what most of the medical field tells us about the extreme dangers to our health when using Anabolic Steroids , Growth Hormone and other compounds.

If you are unable to comprehend the theories behind all the speculation that the towers we destroyed in a controlled demolition and you just believe what the government tells you then why would you adopt a different approach for using restricted substances that your own government tells you will severely damage your health if not possibly kill you.

If you have justifiable facts that prove otherwise, that you understand and can explain to us instead of simply quoting government reports or government procured reports and investigations, then I'm sure we would all like you to explain those facts to us.

----------


## zabster151

> *The use of Anabolic Steroids, Growth Hormone, Insulin and other controlled substances for the purpose of bodybuilding has also been rejected by the majority of the medical field.* The majority of medical professionals will tell you that all these substances are very dangerous if taken for bodybuilding purposes and obviously the mainstream media has a field day with any bad publicity they can create or manipulate to make us all think that these facts are all true. 
> 
> Instead of blindly believing all this crap, we all come here and exchange information and do our own research online about the affects of these substances. We then make an informed decision after finding out the real truth, instead of what the government tells us and we either decide to use these substances or not based on our own findings.
> 
> BJJ and Mr Rose have the abilities and mathematical skills to prove to themselves that what the government says about the cause of the towers collapsing just doesn't add up. So they reject those explanations just like most of us here reject what most of the medical field tells us about the extreme dangers to our health when using Anabolic Steroids , Growth Hormone and other compounds.
> 
> If you are unable to comprehend the theories behind all the speculation that the towers we destroyed in a controlled demolition and you just believe what the government tells you then why would you adopt a different approach for using restricted substances that your own government tells you will severely damage your health if not possibly kill you.
> 
> If you have justifiable facts that prove otherwise, that you understand and can explain to us instead of simply quoting government reports or government procured reports and investigations, then I'm sure we would all like you to explain those facts to us.



Once again well said, especially this community should be wiry of what the government tells you. i mean god dammit people please think for yourselves investigate everything to the T.

Remember we take juice because we know how to use and it works. they dont know S%&t and want you to buy crap that will hurt you.

----------


## DSM4Life

Obama gave a beautiful on the topic. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTDFg81w6tQ

I totally back him 100%. Is it legal, yes. Is it insensitive ? Possibly.

----------


## zabster151

are you serious, obama is a fake he is nothing sorry but if you back obama you do not back America.

his real name is barry soetoro

boys we have another brain washed one

----------


## DSM4Life

> are you serious, obama is a fake he is nothing sorry but if you back obama you do not back America.
> 
> his real name is barry soetoro
> 
> boys we have another brain washed one


Who are you to say that ?

----------


## zabster151

I am someone who know allot more then you do about whats going on and for you to say you back barry soetoro 100% is a joke. that means you back no gun rights for Americans. you are for the 60 billion dolors he just spent this month in Iraq. The 1 trillion dolors he has given away to banks car companies foreign countries war. lets see what els o yea medical reform so illegal get free Medicare. you are also in favor that he is suing Arizona for enforcing its immigration laws that every state has. o yea you are for opining the boarders and making everyone a citizen. so much more its just stupid that somone would back this terrorist 

But remember you back Him you said it yourself.

----------


## DSM4Life

> *I am someone who know allot more then you do* about whats going on and for you to say you back barry soetoro 100% is a joke. that means you back no gun rights for Americans. you are for the 60 billion dolors he just spent this month in Iraq. The 1 trillion dolors he has given away to banks car companies foreign countries war. lets see what els o yea medical reform so illegal get free Medicare. you are also in favor that he is suing Arizona for enforcing its immigration laws that every state has. o yea you are for opining the boarders and making everyone a citizen. so much more its just stupid that somone would back this terrorist 
> 
> But remember you back Him you said it yourself.


Judging from your grammar and sentence structure I would say that statement is false.

Do I like everything Obama is doing ? No. Does that mean Obama should be impeached ? 
You always have to weight the pro's and con's. If there are more pro's then I am OK with my decision.

----------


## zabster151

my Grammar, the is what you call me out for. just like you people to not pay attention to whats really going on. well you still back this terroist 100% you said it. YES he should be impeached. are you serious, Pros and Cons the cons out weigh the pros hands down 
if you cant see that open your eyes. i am still wondering what good he has done for this country. i have already listed some of the things he has done to hurt this country. but you have not posted anything good he has done.

Pros? 

Cons: wasted all of are money, bailed out companies that should have failed, for illegal immigrants, free medical for illegals,spends billions on this nothing war. paid bonuses to all the people who screwed us. wants to get ride of the the 2nd amendment. he wants to limit what people can do on the web if not cancel it completely. appoints people to jobs they are not qualified for or have a track record of screwing the working class. there is so much 

do not ask me were i do my research because i have already posted it. hopefully my grammar was good enough for you to read

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

The world would be a better place without Muslims... true story...

----------


## zabster151

OMG, can you people not read whats going on or what?

----------


## DSM4Life

> my Grammar, the is what you call me out for. just like you people to not pay attention to whats really going on. well you still back this terroist 100% you said it. YES he should be impeached. are you serious, Pros and Cons the cons out weigh the pros hands down 
> if you cant see that open your eyes. i am still wondering what good he has done for this country. i have already listed some of the things he has done to hurt this country. but you have not posted anything good he has done.
> 
> Pros? 
> 
> Cons: wasted all of are money, bailed out companies that should have failed, for illegal immigrants, free medical for illegals,spends billions on this nothing war. paid bonuses to all the people who screwed us. wants to get ride of the the 2nd amendment. he wants to limit what people can do on the web if not cancel it completely. appoints people to jobs they are not qualified for or have a track record of screwing the working class. there is so much 
> 
> do not ask me were i do my research because i have already posted it. hopefully my grammar was good enough for you to read


I wasn't trying to insult you but how do you expect to be taken serious when you write like that ? 

I love how people criticize Obama because he hasn't saved the world yet. Do you understand how deep of a hole he was dropped into when he was elected ? If you put Jesus Christ himself into his shoes it would still take years before things got better.

You talk about the war, who got us into this mess ? Do you really think McOld would have pulled out ? He would have dug us even deeper into this mess. My thoughts on the war, we need to pull out but we need to do it properly. We can't just drop our guns and walk away we need to slowly withdraw. If we were to just walk away all those soldiers that died would have died in vain (like in the war in Somalia-Mogadishu).

----------


## zabster151

what the F$%k is bad about my grammar i am doing other things and i jump back and forth on my pc to type something quick and if its not perfect who cares can you read it YES. stop trying to lead away from the issue. i did not expect this man to save the world or any other president for that matter. you obsessively do not know whats going on or you would realize the president does not mean s#&t. he is front man i have already said this and yes we were in debt already from the banks and the war are government started nine years. but that does not mean he has to com in and bail out companies that should fail and put billions into this war. that he said he would back out of remember that its what he ran on as a candidate.

you still have not come up with a Pro yet ?

----------


## DSM4Life

> what the F$%k is bad about my grammar i am doing other things and i jump back and forth on my pc to type something quick and if its not perfect who cares can you read it YES. stop trying to lead away from the issue. i did not expect this man to save the world or any other president for that matter. you obsessively do not know whats going on or you would realize the president does not mean s#&t. he is front man i have already said this and yes we were in debt already from the banks and the war are government started nine years. but that does not mean he has to com in and bail out companies that should fail and put billions into this war. that he said he would back out of remember that its what he ran on as a candidate.
> 
> you still have not come up with a Pro yet ?


I can understand being distracted when typing, same thing happens to me (am right now with music) but it's very distracting and doesn't help you when trying to get a point across. 

Did I agree with the bailout ? Hell no but when you think about it what would have been better, "investing" money into these companies or letting them crumble and in turn put tons more people on unemployment ? 
If you ask me , I don't know. On one hand I say they made their bed now let them lay in it but again do i really want all these other people out of work ? I think the idea of the plan was good but the way it was implemented was horrendous. 

I only know of a few Pro's personally but if i research it which i am guilty of not doing lately since i have a lot of personal issues going on right now.

--
Ended previous practice of protecting credit card companies; in place of it are new consumer protections from credit card industry’s predatory practices

Better body armor is now being provided to our troops

Closed offshore tax safe havens

Cracked down on companies that deny sick pay, vacation and health insurance to workers by abusing the employee classification of independent contractor. Such companies also avoid paying Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes for those workers.

Lower drug costs for seniors

Fight for gay rights 

These are a few I can shot off the top of my head but there are many more.

----------


## zabster151

> I can understand being distracted when typing, same thing happens to me (am right now with music) but it's very distracting and doesn't help you when trying to get a point across. 
> 
> Did I agree with the bailout ? Hell no but when you think about it what would have been better, "investing" money into these companies or letting them crumble and in turn put tons more people on unemployment ? 
> If you ask me , I don't know. On one hand I say they made their bed now let them lay in it but again do i really want all these other people out of work ? I think the idea of the plan was good but the way it was implemented was horrendous. 
> 
> I only know of a few Pro's personally but if i research it which i am guilty of not doing lately since i have a lot of personal issues going on right now.
> 
> --
> Ended previous practice of protecting credit card companies; in place of it are new consumer protections from credit card industry’s predatory practices
> ...


not good enough lol

----------


## zabster151

Things he should be doing....

1. kill all insentive programs for the illegals so they have no reason to come here any more
meaning: if not legal no food stamps no medical treatment no subcidized free living nothing you get deported on site. any compony that gets caught hiring illegals should get hit with major fines and 2nd offense pull whatever license they have

2. Pull all troops out of every country its not are job to police every country we cant afford it and shouldent be doing it.

3.let companies fail thats how a capitolist system works you failed for a reason. so now its someone els is turn.

4.medical should be privet sector only. there should be care for legal struggling citizens in other ways this is the toughest one yet i personally think.

5 audit the fed

6 start rebuilding this country, rebuild are water pipes throughout america, farming start producing product again no more out sourcing jobs.

7 give loans to people so they can start businesses 

8 make school cheaper if you want people to go and become smarter more productive member of society o yea we should have money for teachers since we are not spending all are money on war.

9 actually lower taxes for once 

10 raise minimum wage to cost of living standers

just a couple of things.lol

----------


## DSM4Life

I will be the first one to admit that Obama is not perfect but its real easy for an outsider (you, myself and many others) to point fingers. If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem. So tell me this , how would Zabster do it ?

----------


## zabster151

just found this.lol

----------


## zabster151

> I will be the first one to admit that Obama is not perfect but its real easy for an outsider (you, myself and many others) to point fingers. If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem. So tell me this , how would Zabster do it ?


Hey i just gave my solution here it is again

Things he should be doing....

1. kill all insentive programs for the illegals so they have no reason to come here any more
meaning: if not legal no food stamps no medical treatment no subcidized free living nothing you get deported on site. any compony that gets caught hiring illegals should get hit with major fines and 2nd offense pull whatever license they have

2. Pull all troops out of every country its not are job to police every country we cant afford it and shouldent be doing it.

3.let companies fail thats how a capitolist system works you failed for a reason. so now its someone els is turn.

4.medical should be privet sector only. there should be care for legal struggling citizens in other ways this is the toughest one yet i personally think.

5 audit the fed

6 start rebuilding this country, rebuild are water pipes throughout america, farming start producing product again no more out sourcing jobs.

7 give loans to people so they can start businesses 

8 make school cheaper if you want people to go and become smarter more productive member of society o yea we should have money for teachers since we are not spending all are money on war.

9 actually lower taxes for once 

10 raise minimum wage to cost of living standers

just a couple of things.lol

----------


## BgMc31

.....nevermind, not worth the effort to argue! LOL!!

----------


## DSM4Life

> .....nevermind, not worth the effort to argue! LOL!!


Pretty much. Im done with it as well.

----------


## zabster151

because i am correct,

----------


## stevey_6t9

dsm for president

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

lol oh you guys... I love this place!

----------


## Flagg

> .....nevermind, not worth the effort to argue! LOL!!


Ditto mate. I had a lot to say but what's the point. This is one of those perpetual arguments without end, with people not debating but desperately trying to get their attitudes and opinions across and who can do it the loudest, rudest or most intelligently. This is not a debate. 

The human race sucks. Not a subset, not a religious group, not some neocons, people in general, suck.

----------


## Mooseman33

zabster, u are fvking crazsy man..

aside from everything else i disagree with you about, fvk raising the minium wage..small business is dying as it is, to raise the min. wage is crazy...

oh yeah, Big Sexy, i love u man, the world would be much better without muslims....
and for that matter, zabster too....

----------


## zabster151

wow, so what part about helping business with taxes and businesses loans did you not understand. if the business owner has more money they can pay more. thats how it should be cost of living does not mach up even close to wage's how can you not be for people making more money when they work your a piece of S#$t. o yea Moosman your F&*ing Dumb would you actually do some research about what happed THERE WERE NO MUSLIMS INVOLVED. WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE GET THAT. so far nobody on this topic has had any proof that a Muslim has attacked America. all you have is what the news told you. on the other hand you have BJJ,horus and I who have done lots of research and have come to the same conclusion just like 20 million other Americans who are smart and they know this was done by CIA. all planed to make you poor and stupid i think its working. so keep drinking the fluoride mercury Prozac in your water suck down the aspertain in your gum. remember they would never lie to you there the government you trust them.

----------


## zabster151

This is great i love you guys...

----------


## BgMc31

> because i am correct,


No, you're far from correct. But even in the face of evidence it makes no sense to point out the error of your thinking, because it won't sway your thinking any other way. So with that said, why try. You can go on through life thinking you are correct and that's your right. But thinking you are right and being right are two completely different things.

----------


## zabster151

> No, you're far from correct. But even in the face of evidence it makes no sense to point out the error of your thinking, because it won't sway your thinking any other way. So with that said, why try. You can go on through life thinking you are correct and that's your right. But thinking you are right and being right are two completely different things.


whatever you will find out soon enough. :7up:

----------


## BgMc31

> whatever you will find out soon enough.


Hey, Chicken Little, the sky really isn't falling!!! :Aajack:

----------


## DSM4Life

> Hey, Chicken Little, the sky really isn't falling!!!

----------


## zabster151

what a joke you people have no defense because you know nothing on this subject and are blind to physics. I really thought you guys were smarter then this and not so ignorant. especially because this community use Anabolic Steroids and the administration and doctors all a around say how bad they are. but we at this form are smarter then that and know how to RESEARCH something to find the truth. but in this case you believe whatever the TV tells you.

----------


## stevey_6t9

> Hey, Chicken Little, the sky really isn't falling!!!


lmao.

talking about conspiracies since this thread is full of them...

2pac is still alive! the government is hiding him under barack obama to keep the white house extra black. its true here il show you the math

1243234\45365* 45.34458- 465463 = 2pac alive

----------


## Mooseman33

zabster u are shit crazy man....

no need to continue.

----------


## zabster151

o well i tried no hard feelings i love to debate.

----------


## BgMc31

> lmao.
> 
> talking about conspiracies since this thread is full of them...
> 
> 2pac is still alive! the government is hiding him under barack obama to keep the white house extra black. its true here il show you the math
> 
> 1243234\45365* 45.34458- 465463 = 2pac alive


I luv it!!! You gotta understand that 2Pac is the second coming and that he will deliver the black man to his rightful place...THE HEAD OF THE WORLD! Barack is just preparing the earth for his coming. ALL WILL KNEEL TO THE BOOT OF THE BLACK MAN!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

----------


## stevey_6t9

> I luv it!!! You gotta understand that 2Pac is the second coming and that he will deliver the black man to his rightful place...THE HEAD OF THE WORLD! Barack is just preparing the earth for his coming. ALL WILL KNEEL TO THE BOOT OF THE BLACK MAN!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


its true man and im a conspiracist... so 2pac + Biggy small + michael jackson + martin luther king jnr + barry white all faked their deaths and the government is hiding the truth. someone in brazil found a piece of toast that resembles my conspiracy also if you dont believe me...

----------


## Flagg

Zabster how do you know for certain that you are 100% correct? That's the same kinda thinking that these christian and muslim fundamentalists have in that they are 100% correct, follow us and you go to Heaven or die. That concept alone is ridiculous to me, but not them. 

Prehaps we'll never know, not in this life time, what happened on 911 but always keep an open mind. Don't throw yourself into something so fully and at the very least, don't patronise everyone else because you believe they are wrong.

----------


## zabster151

what part of free fall speed don't you get. Ok here we go when a building falls straight down into its own foot print there is resistance. Unless every floor is blown out from under the next. thats the only way to create free fall. "still with me" so unless that happens it is impossible for a building to fall at free fall speed. "Ok ready" now NIST has stated that all three buildings fell at free fall speed. Now we saw the buildings fall they fell pretty fast and direct "correct" so thats imposable being how there were hundreds of floors between the top and ground unless control demo. and if you have ever seen a building of that magnitude being built its like a rats nest of steel re bar garters and concrete pretty much buildings don't fall that way when built that well. unless controlled demo. so thats were i get 100% because the science math and common sense show me 100% confidence. http://ae911truth.org/ these are the top architect in the world

----------


## Bonaparte

Back to the original topic: Who cares if they build a mosque? If they bought the plot of land, they basically have the right to build whatever the hell they want there. Besides, it isn't even that close to Ground Zero, anyway. This whole thing sounds to me like Fox News is finally running out of things to scare hicks with.

----------


## zabster151

well they say Muslims killed Americans there that day. Now they build place for Muslims to pray. don't you think its a little messed up i mean of all places. its kinda like someone blows your house up you die then they give the property to the guy who blew your house up.weird :Nutkick:

----------


## tupollo

> Back to the original topic: Who cares if they build a mosque? If they bought the plot of land, they basically have the right to build whatever the hell they want there. Besides, it isn't even that close to Ground Zero, anyway. This whole thing sounds to me like Fox News is finally running out of things to scare hicks with.


does the westboro baptist church have the right to protest marines funerals and thank god for their deaths?...yes...should they....no.

----------


## Bonaparte

> does the westboro baptist church have the right to protest marines funerals and thank god for their deaths?...yes...should they....no.


Although that isn't exactly a fair comparison, you made my point for me. They can and they will, so there is no point in getting all up in arms about it (in the mosque case). The reason it is an unfair comparison is that the muslims in their new mosque aren't going to be praising the 911 bombers all day (I would hope and assume). They aren't going out of their way to piss anyone off (unlike the Wesboro people who can't be ignored).

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## tupollo

> Although that isn't exactly a fair comparison, you made my point for me. They can and they will, so there is no point in getting all up in arms about it (in the mosque case). The reason it is an unfair comparison is that the muslims in their new mosque aren't going to be praising the 911 bombers all day (I would hope and assume). They aren't going out of their way to piss anyone off (unlike the Wesboro people who can't be ignored).


i understand your point but i fear that is exactly what they are trying to do.this mosque is supposed to be a bridge to the west.what kind of bridge is built in defiance of the people you are trying to make good relations with?right or wrong most Americans dont want that mosque there.why would you insist on it if all you wanted to was build a place of understanding?

2, im very disturbed by this immams background and anti american toeing jihadi line comments and find it wholly distasteful to have this guy building anything anywhere near the twin tower site....but again legally he can do what he wants i guess...

i dont think there is anything we can do legally. perhaps build a muslim gay bar right next door?

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## JDawg1536

> well they say Muslims killed Americans there that day. Now they build place for Muslims to pray. don't you think its a little messed up i mean of all places. its kinda like someone blows your house up you die then they give the property to the guy who blew your house up.weird


I know what you mean, man. Ever since the Oklahoma City Bombing, I just can't believe the nerve of these white people. They are trying to take this place over and are a serious threat to this country. We need to stop this shit ASAP.

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## tupollo

> I know what you mean, man. Ever since the Oklahoma City Bombing, I just can't believe the nerve of these white people. They are trying to take this place over and are a serious threat to this country. We need to stop this shit ASAP.


1,that act of terror may have been backed by me operatives (see book: The Third Terrorist: The Middle East Connection to the Oklahoma City Bombing).

2, are you seriously comparing the one act to islamic terrorism?

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## tupollo

> "I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves." quoted by Ernesto Guevara. I don't know if you guys watched the movie Che but i was really inspiring. He fights a two year campaign overthrowing U.S.-backed Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batist. Its a must watch, anyways I agree with BJJ and zabster a lot of people rather have their govt doing their thinking for them than them doing it themselves. Too much ignorance in our country. A revolutionary like Che come around every few hundred years.


che was a great great man...must see video....


http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/200358-1

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## tupollo

> Hey i just gave my solution here it is again
> 
> 
> 
> 10 raise minimum wage to cost of living standers


your better then this...govermint planning never works and eventually harms the people it is supposed to help.

the minimum wage should be abolished (as well as most restrictions on commerce and trade).

the government can not decide how much labour is worth.only the market and the supply and demand system can decide how much any product,good or service is worth.

the minimum wage hurts the american worker.i can not undercut illegal aliens or others who are willing to compete and work for a lower wage.once you take bartering out of a system it fails to be free and will always hurt the market in the long run.

raising minimum wage rates will cause employers to hire less workers.if i have to pay my 10 employees 10 an hour when previously i was paying them 7.15 i now have more costs to contend with.i must either shrink my workforce,make shitty products,or reduce production speed to cover my costs.so instead of having a low paying job you now have no job.

to much misunderstanding of basic economic principals and replacing market theory with class warfare will effect the job market and the price of products negatively.

you can not decide value.value is.a=a.telling me how much my labour is worth does not make it so.it may be more it may be less.the employer has no incentive to hire new workers for more then the minimum standard only when there is a standard.he is free to pay as he wishes without that standard as are his competitors.who is the state to say that in order to protect me all my labour has a minimum value? i defy such notions and resent them.

value is.a=a.

during a time in the country when we had high oil prices hawai decided to its peril to lower gas prices.of course paying less at the pump because the state says gas is worth less then it really is does nothing to actually decrease prices.the entire cost of production of said oil went through the roof.hawai eventually stopped the program.

value is.a=a.

a great poem on the greatness of the line of production is- i pencil (referenced in milton friedman's -freedom to choose.Chicago school of economics).

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htk9ZqW6b1I
part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9zcnIuXPdg

or in full:

, Pencil
My Family Tree as told to Leonard E. Read
RP.1
I am a lead pencil—the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write.*

RP.2
Writing is both my vocation and my avocation; that's all I do.

RP.3
You may wonder why I should write a genealogy. Well, to begin with, my story is interesting. And, next, I am a mystery—more so than a tree or a sunset or even a flash of lightning. But, sadly, I am taken for granted by those who use me, as if I were a mere incident and without background. This supercilious attitude relegates me to the level of the commonplace. This is a species of the grievous error in which mankind cannot too long persist without peril. For, the wise G. K. Chesterton observed, "We are perishing for want of wonder, not for want of wonders."

RP.4
I, Pencil, simple though I appear to be, merit your wonder and awe, a claim I shall attempt to prove. In fact, if you can understand me—no, that's too much to ask of anyone—if you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing. I have a profound lesson to teach. And I can teach this lesson better than can an automobile or an airplane or a mechanical dishwasher because—well, because I am seemingly so simple.

RP.5
Simple? Yet, not a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me. This sounds fantastic, doesn't it? Especially when it is realized that there are about one and one-half billion of my kind produced in the U.S.A. each year.

RP.6
Pick me up and look me over. What do you see? Not much meets the eye—there's some wood, lacquer, the printed labeling, graphite lead, a bit of metal, and an eraser.

Innumerable Antecedents

RP.7
Just as you cannot trace your family tree back very far, so is it impossible for me to name and explain all my antecedents. But I would like to suggest enough of them to impress upon you the richness and complexity of my background.

RP.8
My family tree begins with what in fact is a tree, a cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon. Now contemplate all the saws and trucks and rope and the countless other gear used in harvesting and carting the cedar logs to the railroad siding. Think of all the persons and the numberless skills that went into their fabrication: the mining of ore, the making of steel and its refinement into saws, axes, motors; the growing of hemp and bringing it through all the stages to heavy and strong rope; the logging camps with their beds and mess halls, the cookery and the raising of all the foods. Why, untold thousands of persons had a hand in every cup of coffee the loggers drink!

RP.9
The logs are shipped to a mill in San Leandro, California. Can you imagine the individuals who make flat cars and rails and railroad engines and who construct and install the communication systems incidental thereto? These legions are among my antecedents.

RP.10
Consider the millwork in San Leandro. The cedar logs are cut into small, pencil-length slats less than one-fourth of an inch in thickness. These are kiln dried and then tinted for the same reason women put rouge on their faces. People prefer that I look pretty, not a pallid white. The slats are waxed and kiln dried again. How many skills went into the making of the tint and the kilns, into supplying the heat, the light and power, the belts, motors, and all the other things a mill requires? Sweepers in the mill among my ancestors? Yes, and included are the men who poured the concrete for the dam of a Pacific Gas & Electric Company hydroplant which supplies the mill's power!

RP.11
Don't overlook the ancestors present and distant who have a hand in transporting sixty carloads of slats across the nation.

RP.12
Once in the pencil factory—$4,000,000 in machinery and building, all capital accumulated by thrifty and saving parents of mine—each slat is given eight grooves by a complex machine, after which another machine lays leads in every other slat, applies glue, and places another slat atop—a lead sandwich, so to speak. Seven brothers and I are mechanically carved from this "wood-clinched" sandwich.

RP.13
My "lead" itself—it contains no lead at all—is complex. The graphite is mined in Ceylon. Consider these miners and those who make their many tools and the makers of the paper sacks in which the graphite is shipped and those who make the string that ties the sacks and those who put them aboard ships and those who make the ships. Even the lighthouse keepers along the way assisted in my birth—and the harbor pilots.

RP.14
The graphite is mixed with clay from Mississippi in which ammonium hydroxide is used in the refining process. Then wetting agents are added such as sulfonated tallow—animal fats chemically reacted with sulfuric acid. After passing through numerous machines, the mixture finally appears as endless extrusions—as from a sausage grinder-cut to size, dried, and baked for several hours at 1,850 degrees Fahrenheit. To increase their strength and smoothness the leads are then treated with a hot mixture which includes candelilla wax from Mexico, paraffin wax, and hydrogenated natural fats.

RP.15
My cedar receives six coats of lacquer. Do you know all the ingredients of lacquer? Who would think that the growers of castor beans and the refiners of castor oil are a part of it? They are. Why, even the processes by which the lacquer is made a beautiful yellow involve the skills of more persons than one can enumerate!

RP.16
Observe the labeling. That's a film formed by applying heat to carbon black mixed with resins. How do you make resins and what, pray, is carbon black?

RP.17
My bit of metal—the ferrule—is brass. Think of all the persons who mine zinc and copper and those who have the skills to make shiny sheet brass from these products of nature. Those black rings on my ferrule are black nickel. What is black nickel and how is it applied? The complete story of why the center of my ferrule has no black nickel on it would take pages to explain.

RP.18
Then there's my crowning glory, inelegantly referred to in the trade as "the plug," the part man uses to erase the errors he makes with me. An ingredient called "factice" is what does the erasing. It is a rubber-like product made by reacting rape-seed oil from the Dutch East Indies with sulfur chloride. Rubber, contrary to the common notion, is only for binding purposes. Then, too, there are numerous vulcanizing and accelerating agents. The pumice comes from Italy; and the pigment which gives "the plug" its color is cadmium sulfide.

No One Knows

RP.19
Does anyone wish to challenge my earlier assertion that no single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me?

RP.20
Actually, millions of human beings have had a hand in my creation, no one of whom even knows more than a very few of the others. Now, you may say that I go too far in relating the picker of a coffee berry in far off Brazil and food growers elsewhere to my creation; that this is an extreme position. I shall stand by my claim. There isn't a single person in all these millions, including the president of the pencil company, who contributes more than a tiny, infinitesimal bit of know-how. From the standpoint of know-how the only difference between the miner of graphite in Ceylon and the logger in Oregon is in the type of know-how. Neither the miner nor the logger can be dispensed with, any more than can the chemist at the factory or the worker in the oil field—paraffin being a by-product of petroleum.

RP.21
Here is an astounding fact: Neither the worker in the oil field nor the chemist nor the digger of graphite or clay nor any who mans or makes the ships or trains or trucks nor the one who runs the machine that does the knurling on my bit of metal nor the president of the company performs his singular task because he wants me. Each one wants me less, perhaps, than does a child in the first grade. Indeed, there are some among this vast multitude who never saw a pencil nor would they know how to use one. Their motivation is other than me. Perhaps it is something like this: Each of these millions sees that he can thus exchange his tiny know-how for the goods and services he needs or wants. I may or may not be among these items.

No Master Mind

RP.22
There is a fact still more astounding: the absence of a master mind, of anyone dictating or forcibly directing these countless actions which bring me into being. No trace of such a person can be found. Instead, we find the Invisible Hand at work. This is the mystery to which I earlier referred.

RP.23
It has been said that "only God can make a tree." Why do we agree with this? Isn't it because we realize that we ourselves could not make one? Indeed, can we even describe a tree? We cannot, except in superficial terms. We can say, for instance, that a certain molecular configuration manifests itself as a tree. But what mind is there among men that could even record, let alone direct, the constant changes in molecules that transpire in the life span of a tree? Such a feat is utterly unthinkable!

RP.24
I, Pencil, am a complex combination of miracles: a tree, zinc, copper, graphite, and so on. But to these miracles which manifest themselves in Nature an even more extraordinary miracle has been added: the configuration of creative human energies—millions of tiny know-hows configurating naturally and spontaneously in response to human necessity and desire and in the absence of any human master-minding! Since only God can make a tree, I insist that only God could make me. Man can no more direct these millions of know-hows to bring me into being than he can put molecules together to create a tree.

RP.25
The above is what I meant when writing, "If you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing." For, if one is aware that these know-hows will naturally, yes, automatically, arrange themselves into creative and productive patterns in response to human necessity and demand—that is, in the absence of governmental or any other coercive masterminding—then one will possess an absolutely essential ingredient for freedom: a faith in free people. Freedom is impossible without this faith.

RP.26
Once government has had a monopoly of a creative activity such, for instance, as the delivery of the mails, most individuals will believe that the mails could not be efficiently delivered by men acting freely. And here is the reason: Each one acknowledges that he himself doesn't know how to do all the things incident to mail delivery. He also recognizes that no other individual could do it. These assumptions are correct. No individual possesses enough know-how to perform a nation's mail delivery any more than any individual possesses enough know-how to make a pencil. Now, in the absence of faith in free people—in the unawareness that millions of tiny know-hows would naturally and miraculously form and cooperate to satisfy this necessity—the individual cannot help but reach the erroneous conclusion that mail can be delivered only by governmental "master-minding."

Testimony Galore

RP.27
If I, Pencil, were the only item that could offer testimony on what men and women can accomplish when free to try, then those with little faith would have a fair case. However, there is testimony galore; it's all about us and on every hand. Mail delivery is exceedingly simple when compared, for instance, to the making of an automobile or a calculating machine or a grain combine or a milling machine or to tens of thousands of other things. Delivery? Why, in this area where men have been left free to try, they deliver the human voice around the world in less than one second; they deliver an event visually and in motion to any person's home when it is happening; they deliver 150 passengers from Seattle to Baltimore in less than four hours; they deliver gas from Texas to one's range or furnace in New York at unbelievably low rates and without subsidy; they deliver each four pounds of oil from the Persian Gulf to our Eastern Seaboard—halfway around the world—for less money than the government charges for delivering a one-ounce letter across the street!

RP.28
The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth.

RP.29

Leonard E. Read (1898-1983) founded FEE in 1946 and served as its president until his death.

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## Matt

This was almost an interesting thread until the conspiracy bollocks started, those that believe the US (cia) were behind the 9,11 bombings should grow up because your starting to sound really retarded and id have to question your age.....

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## zabster151

sorry 007 but there is too much real evidence to show it was controlled demo. i cant believe you guys cant see this.

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## BJJ

I do not know who was behind 9/11, how could I?

But, fortunately for me I know maths and I *do know* it was a planned demolition.

For me it is enough, it is a proof of "ruling the world" basing everything on a cause and effect scenario.

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## zabster151

Thank you. Was wondering where you were BJJ.

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## Aussiebb

> I do not know who was behind 9/11, how could I?
> 
> But, fortunately for me I know maths and I *do know* it was a planned demolition.
> 
> For me it is enough, it is a proof of "ruling the world" basing everything on a cause and effect scenario.



Agree.Im in australia and i beleive it was a controlled demo.

Even the plane hitting the pentagon was bullshit.Countless research, videos etc that a plane never hit the pentagon.No plane wreck, no plane parts, no luggage etc.

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

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## wanabeMASSIVE!

I personally think 911 was an inside job there's way to many conspiracies to say it wasn't... as for the mosque its all good. People are entitled to opinion freedom of speech and a freedom to do what they please...

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## wanabeMASSIVE!

> tired of hearing about the mis-beliefs of islam...
> start looking at the facts, and the facts are clear, them fvkers have tried and accomplished alot of destruction in America.
> you can call them radicals, i call them all muslim terrorists.
> 
> it breads hate, a hate that drives people to blow up innocent people.
> fvck islam..
> 
> i hope that was ignornant enough for u...


Is that why Islam is the fastest growing religion within the United States?

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## HoRuS

> I do not know who was behind 9/11, how could I?
> 
> But, fortunately for me I know maths and I *do know* it was a planned demolition.
> 
> For me it is enough, it is a proof of "ruling the world" basing everything on a cause and effect scenario.


It is so obvious that is was planned and a controlled demolition. The towers were built to withstand such incidents and even earthquakes. If it was a simple plane crash then the tower would be still standing. The impact and cosequent aviation fuel explosion was nowhere near enough damage to bring down the tower. At most, part of the top of the tower could have toppled over and fallen beside the tower but survivors reported explosions all through the tower and proof of explosives were found throuought the rubble. Nothing can bring down a building to fall within its own footprint except a very professional controlled demolition. Skyscrapers are designed this way or else they would collapse every time there was any minor earth tremor.

The only people who can't see this are those who refuse to see the massive amount of evidence or refuse to even research the real findings because they don't want to believe their own government was responsible for the murder of its own people.

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## HoRuS

Controlled Demolition

The Model for 'removing' skyscrapers is the Penzer Building in Detroit, courtesy of Controlled Demolition, Inc. Notice the yellow enclosed area showing some of the cutter charges that demolished ALL of the support columns on one floor. The total weight of the unsupported structure hammered the building to the ground after the core structure was blown to pieces:


COMPARE the clouds of the cutter charges at the North Tower with those at the Penzer Building in the first photograph:



FEMA, the Federal Government agency that covered up the OKC bombing, arrived in NYC on 9/10 claims:

Review of videotape recordings of the collapse taken from various angles indicates that the transmission tower on top of the structure began to move downward and laterally slightly before movement was evident at the exterior walls. This suggests that collapse began with one or more failures in the central core area of the building. 
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_ch2.htm

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## HoRuS

*What If Everything You Know About 9/11 is Wrong?*

Interview by Bruce David and Carolyn Sinclair

We all know what happened on September 11, 2001-Osama bin Laden inspired 19 Muslim extremists to hijack commercial airplanes and fly them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon. But what if it didn't happen that way at all?

David Ray Griffin is a professor of theology, a well-respected scholar and author of more than 20 books, including The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions and The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11. Griffin maintains that the evidence contradicts the government's official story and that, so far, nobody's come up with a theory that can account for all of the facts.

At HUSTLER we believe the murder of 2,986 innocent people demands hard questions and digging deeper. We're especially troubled by the collapse of Building 7, but we're determined to keep an open mind. As such, we sit down with Griffin to discuss what appear to be disturbing inconsistencies with the government's story.

*HUSTLER: You've compiled a record of the facts-but are they beyond dispute?*

DAVID RAY GRIFFIN: I simply gather research that has been done by others, a lot of it based on mainline stories from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and The Guardian and so on. These reports tend to, more or less, contradict the official theory.

*You say there's reason to question the government's official position on Osama bin Laden.*

One problem with the official theory of the attacks being pulled off entirely by the 19 men named as al Qaeda terrorists is that six of them have, subsequently, shown up very much alive. This has been reported in the BBC, but not in the American mainstream press. One guy even walked into the U.S. Embassy and asked what was this nonsense about his having died on 9/11?

*What are some other problems with the official story?*

The government had every reason to know this was going to happen. There were some 52 warnings of the attack, many of which the Bush Administration didn't see fit to have released until after the inauguration. A little bit came out during the 9/11 hearings. For example Condoleezza Rice-who had been describing the famous August 6, 2001, memo from British intelligence as merely historical in nature-was forced to admit that the title of it was "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Within the United States." Many people have thought that was the strongest evidence of foreknowledge-but not at all.

Another example involves David Schippers, the attorney who prosecuted Bill Clinton and is highly thought of in Republican circles. Schippers says he called up Attorney General John Ashcroft repeatedly to tell him that FBI agents were warning of an attack, that they knew the date and said it was going to be in Lower Manhattan. Schippers couldn't get the Attorney General's office to call him back. The New American, a conservative political magazine, interviewed these FBI agents and confirmed their story.

Further evidence of foreknowledge involves the Secret Service's seeming to not only know the attacks were coming, but know who was targeted and who was not. That morning [of September 11], Bush was in a classroom in Sarasota, Florida, publicizing his education program. After the second building was struck, there could be no doubt the country was under attack. Yet Bush just sat there for about ten minutes.

Many people have criticized the President for not getting up immediately and going into commander-in-chief mode, but really, the Pentagon handles these things. Standard operating procedure dictates the Secret Service should have sprung into action and whisked Bush out of the classroom, into a car and away to some secure location.

The Secret Service should have assumed that the President would be the next target and at least take action as if that might be the case. The head of the FAA had just reported that there were 11 planes unaccounted for; and so there might have been 11 hijacked planes at that time. Yet the Secret Service did nothing. Bush went on national TV at about 9:30 for a prescheduled talk, and then they got in the limousine and went in the caravan on the normally scheduled route to the airport. When they got to the airport, they hadn't even called ahead to make sure there was jet fighter cover for Air Force One.

*What are some of the contradictions involving the attacks?*

One involves the story about the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings. We had three buildings collapse there, the North Tower [WTC 1], the South Tower [WTC 2] and Building 7 [WTC 7]. Each was a high-rise steel-frame building. Now, steel-frame high-rise buildings have never in the history of the universe been brought down by fire. And yet on this day, three of them were allegedly brought down by fire. There have been experiments with buildings raging with fire. In the experiments, fire made them sag a little, but never caused them to collapse. [See Madrid high-rise fire, page 34.] And yet on 9/11 these three buildings, which had relatively small fires in them, collapsed.

People have the image of the South Tower in their minds, and they think, Oh, these were towering infernos. But most of the jet fuel exploded outside of the South Tower, which produced the really dramatic effect. But you have to remember, that effect only lasted for a few seconds, and the fuel burned up very quickly. In the South Tower there was relatively little fuel to feed the fire inside; so it would have had to be feeding on carpets, on desks and things like that. And yet the South Tower collapsed in less than an hour after it was hit.

The collapse of Building 7 is particularly unusual, and yet the 9/11 Commission never mentions it once in their report. Somehow fire got started in Building 7, which is two blocks away and was never hit by a plane. There was no jet fuel inside to feed the fire. There are photographs that show only small fires on floors 7 and 12 of this 47-story building. And yet at 5:20 in the afternoon it comes collapsing down in exactly the same way as the other buildings.

Now I stress in the same way because they all came straight down into their own footprint for the most part. They collapsed very quickly, within about ten seconds. That's amazing when you think about it, that fire could produce that kind of effect, just like controlled demolition. In fact, on that very night, Dan Rather-viewing the collapse of Building 7-blurted out, "It looked just like one of those controlled demolitions."

Further evidence of Building 7 being brought down by controlled demolition came from Larry Silverstein, the man who had recently taken a lease on the entire complex. In a PBS documentary from September 2002, Silverstein said he told the fire commander that the smartest thing to do was "pull it." Next, he says, they "made that decision to pull" and watched the building collapse. Pull is a term commonly used to describe using explosives to demolish a building. Silverstein allegedly made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7.

*If the Twin Towers did come down by controlled demolition, wouldn't they have to be wired for the event well in advance of the attack?*

They would have had to be wired, and then closer to the time [of the attack] the explosives would actually have to be placed. Several people who worked in the towers reported that there were times [shortly before the attack] when a certain part of one tower or the other was sectioned off for several days, and no one could go there except these special workers who were called "engineers." So it does appear that there could have been this kind of advance planning and that there would have been time to do this.

Also, because of terrorist alerts, they had been taking bomb-sniffing dogs through the buildings, checking for explosives. There is a report that the bomb-sniffing dogs were called off the weekend prior to 9/11.
*
Are there also inconsistencies involving the hijacked aircraft?*

Let's start with Flight 77, which is credited with crashing into the Pentagon. There are many problems with the official story, which is that it took off from Washington, D.C., went west, then got hijacked, then turned around and came back. Somehow it flew through American airspace, toward the Pentagon for about 40 minutes, without being detected.

Our multitrillion-dollar defense system proved to be worthless. Even more striking, whatever hit the Pentagon hit the West Wing. These terrorists are supposedly so brilliant that they defeat this trillion-dollar system, and yet they didn't know that the West Wing was the worst part of the Pentagon to hit because all the top brass and Rumsfeld, whom you would presume they would want to kill, were in the East Wing.

Secondly, the West Wing was being renovated. It had been reinforced; so fire would not spread from the West Wing to the other parts, causing much less damage. Furthermore, very few regular workers were there because of the renovation. Most of the people killed were civilian workers, not Pentagon employees.

We were told that the façade of the West Wing was hit by this Boeing 757, which weighs 100 tons and was going 300 miles per hour. Yet the façade of the West Wing didn't collapse until a half hour later. Photographs taken by a Marine and an AP photographer show there was a relatively small hole in the façade. And we're supposed to believe the 757, with a 120-foot wingspan and 40-foot-high tail, went through there. The wreckage should be out on the yard, but the photographs show no Boeing visible.

*Were aircraft parts ever found in the Pentagon wreckage?*

There is clearly good evidence that plane parts were photographed in the Pentagon. But that they were parts from a Boeing 757 is highly and vigorously contested by many students of this event. What passes for the official story is that somehow this airplane hit the building, went into this tiny hole, which forced the wings back, and so they folded up and slipped inside the building.

The fire chief in charge of putting out the fire was asked if he saw any plane parts inside. He said no big pieces, no fuselage, no engine, nothing like that. So the people who try to defend this story respond by saying the fire was so hot it vaporized the plane. It not only melted the steel and the aluminum, but it vaporized them; and that's why they disappeared.

We've since learned that a lot of the bodies in the WTC were so destroyed that they were not able to identify them using any modern techniques. Yet this fire in the Pentagon that was hot enough to vaporize steel and aluminum left the bodies so they could be identified.
*
If the government did allow or enable the 9/11 attacks, what is the motivation?*

The September 11 attacks are being used as the excuse for virtually everything the Bush/Cheney Administration is doing. Although Iraq had nothing to do with it-everybody agrees on that now- 9/11 was used as the basis for this war.

These guys had been champing at the bit to attack Iraq since 1992. In 1997 some of them formed The Project for the New American Century, a think tank that claims to promote American global leadership. This organization involved Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld and many others who became central members and ideologues of the Bush Administration. In 2000 the group produced a report titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses" that outlines transforming the military and points out that this will be very expensive.

Since the Cold War is over, the report said, we don't have that excuse to keep military spending up. Many were talking about cutbacks on defense, i.e. military spending. Americans won't be willing to pony up money for defense unless there's an event that makes them feel insecure and threatened by external forces. Therefore, according to the report, any transformation of military affairs will go rather slowly, "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event-like a new Pearl Harbor."

*You've suggested that we will know what happened on 9/11 when those in power are arrested or forced to give sworn testimony. Who should that be?*

Cumulative evidence would seem to suggest that it was people such as Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and General Richard Meyers who probably would have led the activities. Somebody had to give stand-down orders. Standard FAA operating procedures involve contacting the military if there's any sign a plane may have been hijacked, if a plane goes radically off course and they can't call it back, or if it loses radio contact or the transponder's turned off.

The FAA calls the military, which calls the nearest Air Force base, which sends out jet fighters. They typically scramble a couple of fighters; and they have a regular routine where they tell the pilots you've been intercepted, follow me. If they won't comply, then the military pilot requests permission to take more drastic action. None of that happened on September 11. Not a single plane was intercepted. Normally, this occurs within about 15 minutes after signs of problems. In the case of Flight 77, after almost 40 minutes, there's no jet fighter on the scene.

But it gets more problematic. In the first few days we got three different stories about why there were no interceptions. The first story Meyers and NORAD [North American Aerospace Defense Command] told was that we didn't send planes up until after the Pentagon was hit. In other words, an hour and a half went by before any planes were scrambled. That story created lots of questions, and so they immediately changed it. On September 18, NORAD came out and said we did send up fighters, but the FAA was slow in contacting us, and we tried to get there in time, but didn't make it.

Then researchers examined the timelines. Those jets can go from scramble order to 29,000 feet in 2.5 minutes and fly 1,850 miles an hour, which means they should have arrived in time, even if the FAA was late.

With the 9/11 Commission, we get a third story from the military, which is the FAA didn't notify us late; they didn't notify us at all. More precisely, they had only nine minutes notice with Flight 11, the first flight, and no notice about the other three flights until after they had crashed. Of course, this ignores the fact that the military has a radar system by their own account that is far superior to that of the FAA. But for now this is the official story.

*Are there also inconsistencies regarding Flight 93, the airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania?*

With the first three flights the question is, why weren't they intercepted or possibly shot down? With Flight 93 the question is, why does it seem the government shot this plane down after it appeared the passengers were about to wrest control of it? There was a certified pilot aboard as a passenger who would have been able to bring the plane down safely. You would have had live people, presumably live hijackers, to interrogate.

There's an enormous amount of evidence that Flight 93 was shot down. The government denied it. It's strange that they did, because they could have said, "This plane was heading toward the Pentagon or the White House, and we were protecting Washington, doing our job." For some reason they chose to deny that they had shot it down; and that became the official story. In the 9/11 Commission Report they do big-time damage control and remove the possibility that it could have been shot down by changing the timelines rather drastically.

Everybody knows and agrees that Cheney gave the shoot-down order. Prior to the 9/11 Commission Report, we were led to believe that permission was given at about 9:45. Many news reports suggest that the shoot-down order was given before 10 a.m. By his own testimony, Cheney was in charge, down in the underground bunker-the emergency operation center.

Norman Mineta, Secretary of Transportation, testified that when he got down to the underground bunker at about 9:20, Cheney was already there and had been there for some time. That supports the view that he got down there at least by 9:15. The 9/11 Commission ignores that evidence and says Cheney didn't get there until almost 10 a.m. and issued the order after 10:10 a.m. They conclude the military couldn't possibly have shot down Flight 93 because it went down at 10:03 or 10:06.

Standard operating procedures don't require a call from the President; the Pentagon chain of command can do it. So Rumsfeld, Meyers or a subordinate could have done it. In any case, they created the idea that only the President or the Vice President could order it. This is one of the biggest lies in the 9/11 Commission Report.

*Do you think the truth will ever come out?*

It is extremely difficult to get the truth to come out in America because the mainstream media are not only co-opted, but accomplices in these matters. This is understandable because we have a corporate-owned media.

Take NBC, for example, which is owned by General Electric, one of the major producers of military equipment in the world. It's very unlikely you're going to get some reporter on NBC to expose this stuff. Thus far we've seen nothing about this in any mainstream magazine, newspaper or television show in this country.

An international commission with prestigious people would be able to command attention-so much so that even the American press would be unable to ignore it.

*Among the many Web sites devoted to this topic are 911Research.com, WTC7.net and 911Truth.org.
*

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## HoRuS

edit double post

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## DSM4Life

You guys are retarded  :LOL:

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## zabster151

DSM4Life you are not very smart. its amazing Horus all the proof and people cant see it. there is video proof of the walls blowing out seconds before the plane hits i mean really how much more do you need. along with all the other evidence that is just mind blowing. great job Horus your wright on target. watch this DSM4Life and enplane why that happened its a short video so you should be Ok. http://buildingwhat.org/ in fact if anyone can explane how building 7 fell i will give them a cookie. hahahaha this guy look so shady hahaha NIST bunch of liars check it out

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## zabster151

> Agree.Im in australia and i beleive it was a controlled demo.
> 
> Even the plane hitting the pentagon was bullshit.Countless research, videos etc that a plane never hit the pentagon.No plane wreck, no plane parts, no luggage etc.
> 
> http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm


good job nobody has even talked about that one yet. so funny they dident even find plane parts they said it on the news . but it was still a plane. it blows my mind how dumb america is

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## HoRuS

> You guys are retarded


I beg to differ. My WAIS3 test put me in the top 5% of the population. If I am retarded, then 95% of the population is even more retarded. Then again judging by some of the ignorant head in the sand comments here, maybe that would be correct.  :Hmmmm:

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## HoRuS

> DSM4Life you are not very smart. its amazing Horus all the proof and people cant see it. there is video proof of the walls blowing out seconds before the plane hits i mean really how much more do you need. along with all the other evidence that is just mind blowing. great job Horus your wright on target. watch this DSM4Life and enplane why that happened its a short video so you should be Ok. http://buildingwhat.org/ in fact if anyone can explane how building 7 fell i will give them a cookie. hahahaha this guy look so shady hahaha NIST bunch of liars check it out


The proof is all there. People just don't want to believe things that are beyond their comprehension. It's a scary thought that your own government would do such a thing and it suits many people to just ignore the proof so they can get on with their lives and sleep at night oblivious to what is really happening around them.

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## zabster151

yea i know, i am always trying to teach people when they talk about this subject. but they usually just get mad at what i am saying. instead of doing research to find the truth, Ignorance is bliss, until a building your in gets blown up.lol

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## wanabeMASSIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN1Fq090sBA&NR=1 in slow mo..

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

lol Horus just went off!

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## Flagg

While I am no mathematician, I have seen far too much information to think those buildings collapsed due to airplane fuel heating up and melting the supports. 

It looks very much like a planned demolition. It's not an easy concept to swallow, I mean can you imagine if the Bush Administration were behind this or if someone blew the whistle.. the credibility of America would be tarnished forever. 

Which is why no one will ever truly know what happened on that day. 

As for the Mosque, well Mosques offend me everywhere. Build a gay nightclub right next door. Surely that wont offend anyone, will it?

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## DSM4Life

> DSM4Life you are not very smart. its amazing Horus all the proof and people cant see it. there is video proof of the walls blowing out seconds before the plane hits i mean really how much more do you need. along with all the other evidence that is just mind blowing. great job Horus your wright on target. watch this DSM4Life and enplane why that happened its a short video so you should be Ok. http://buildingwhat.org/ in fact if anyone can explane how building 7 fell i will give them a cookie. hahahaha this guy look so shady hahaha NIST bunch of liars check it out


After watching your videos I changed my mind. Your very retarded.

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## stevey_6t9

> After watching your videos I changed my mind. Your very retarded.


lol...

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## zabster151

wow, DSM4Life como'n you are smarter then this i know you are. and please will someone tell me how building 7 fell. remember no plane. 

Horus, they just can't comprehend what happened

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## BgMc31

> wow, DSM4Life como'n you are smarter then this i know you are. and please will someone tell me how building 7 fell. remember no plane. 
> 
> Horus, they just can't comprehend what happened


Here's the answer to your question conspiracy guy...

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives...sanz-Nov07.pdf

For every conspiracy theory about 9/11 there is a theory to debunk it. No one will ever know which is true. But there are always those who seek these outrages conspiracies even when they don't exist just to justify their own paranoia.

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## zabster151

hahahahaha structure mag thats what ya got lol common give me a break they just put whever nist says. it still does not enplane how it fell into its own footprint all it says is that an office fire spread rapidly and made the building collapse like demo. hahahahaha what joke nice try next. wait the problem is that the answer is IT WAS DEMO. o yea and stop saying conspiracy theory guy, i just want to know the truth. and when everything you look at points to demo and you can see it with your own 2 eyes. its hardly a theory.

and no there is not anything to debunk 9/11 the steal never should have melted. and never in history has a steal structure collapsed into its own footprint due to office fire. and this day 3 did. amazing http://ae911truth.org/

these guys built the building they know it was demo i mean come on.....

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## stevey_6t9

> hahahahaha structure mag thats what ya got lol common give me a break they just put whever nist says. it still does not enplane how it fell into its own footprint all it says is that an office fire spread rapidly and made the building collapse like demo. hahahahaha what joke nice try next. wait the problem is that the answer is IT WAS DEMO. o yea and stop saying conspiracy theory guy, i just want to know the truth. and when everything you look at points to demo and you can see it with your own 2 eyes. its hardly a theory.
> 
> and no there is not anything to debunk 9/11 the steal never should have melted. and never in history has a steal structure collapsed into its own footprint due to office fire. and this day 3 did. amazing http://ae911truth.org/
> 
> these guys built the building they know it was demo i mean come on.....


ok lets say the US government DID do the demolition themselves in order for a reason to invade afghanistan/iraq....

would you say the government also paid al-qaeda to take the responsibility for the attacks?

would al-qaeda really agree to let the US invade afghanistan, there home country for money for taking that blame?

wouldnt it be better for al-quaeda to take the money, and say they were bribed by the US, causing massive civil disruption and chaos in the US and possibly a over throwing of the government.

It doesnt make sense. Afghasnistan was a safe haven for terrorists, the last thing they would want is the US occupying it and throwing them out of power.

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## Flagg

I wouldn't call myself a conspiracy nut but there was something very fishy about 911. You will get people that today still believe that we Neil Armstrong never walked on the Moon (which of course he did). I even made a thread about Conspiracy Theories:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t=State+Denial

What I do know is the truth, is the Leaders of the World prefer to treat it's citiziens like stupid, God fearing sheep and will continue to treat us so.

@Stevey6T9, _if_ the US government was responsible for setting up those attacks, it has been suggested that the Terrorist Cell was having it's strings being pulled by US powers, even though it believed it wasn't. 

The whole thing is very hard to swallow. I don't think anyone has any idea of the implications for the whole world IF America some how had a hand in those plane attacks.

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## stevey_6t9

> I wouldn't call myself a conspiracy nut but there was something very fishy about 911. You will get people that today still believe that we Neil Armstrong never walked on the Moon (which of course he did). I even made a thread about Conspiracy Theories:
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t=State+Denial
> 
> What I do know is the truth, is the Leaders of the World prefer to treat it's citiziens like stupid, God fearing sheep and will continue to treat us so.
> 
> @Stevey6T9, _if_ the US government was responsible for setting up those attacks, it has been suggested that the Terrorist Cell was having it's strings being pulled by US powers, even though it believed it wasn't. 
> 
> The whole thing is very hard to swallow. *I don't think anyone has any idea of the implications for the whole world IF America some how had a hand in those plane attacks.*


agreed. 

imagine if it got out or was leaked and proven.

the whole western world would go into chaos, in the US there would be huge riots, civil unrest, storming of government facilities and probably another civil war.

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## DSM4Life

> wow, DSM4Life como'n you are smarter then this i know you are. and please will someone tell me how building 7 fell. remember no plane. 
> 
> Horus, they just can't comprehend what happened


I love how you guys point the finger at others stating they are dumb for not facing the facts. In reality you don't even know the facts yourself ! You are basing your facts on someone else's OPINIONS ! 

Are you a certified implosive/explosive expert ? Have you ever practice demolition ? Then your opinion is as worthless as the next persons.

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## zabster151

common really i don't need a degree to see the truth, and no i am not just stating somone els's opinion i have done allot of research for 6 years or so from many different sources. i have posted research sources here so everyone can see the info for themselves and make a decision for themselves. not like the news which will tell you what to believe. yes i am telling you my opinion but at the same time i am giving really good sources. ae911truth.org is filled with top certified implosive explosive expert enginers contractors top in there field so i share that so you can make your own desion.

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## zabster151

and i know it would be very bad if the truth came out. but things are headed down hill with the bad policies and lying cheating stealing from the middle class. truth needs to be heard America has been sugar coated for to long now.

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## goodlifting

> I love how you guys point the finger at others stating they are dumb for not facing the facts. In reality you don't even know the facts yourself ! You are basing your facts on someone else's OPINIONS ! 
> 
> Are you a certified implosive/explosive expert ? Have you ever practice demolition ? Then your opinion is as worthless as the next persons.


i agree dsm. this whole demo conspiracy is really nothing more than a therory. 

it's hard to believe that engineers and architecs built the twins to fall straight over onto other buildings if they were to be structurally compromised :Hmmmm: . i would think that if the buildings were to fall, they would be built to collaps onto they're footprints to minimize damage as much as possible exactly as they did. 

i think the developers knew exactly what they were doing during the building of the twins and don't think they would overlook the fact that the structures could possible come down. so why *wouldn't* they be built to fall as they did?

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## zabster151

actually if you read this information that the Builders, engineers of the building post that each building was built to withstand 2-3 planes bigger then those to hit them. and no building is built to fall into its own foot print. they are built not to fall, and another thing research how the building was built its a rats nest its impossible to fall like that. most likely it would be a very bad fire but would never collapse the building.

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## BJJ

I don't know, I am very sad actually...

This thread is the perfect example of the society we live in.

Nothing more, nothing less.

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## HoRuS

> I don't know, I am very sad actually...
> 
> This thread is the perfect example of the society we live in.
> 
> Nothing more, nothing less.


Thats just how society is BJJ. 

People will believe what suits them the best. Those who don't want to believe that the governments explanation of 9/11 events is all fabricated with numerous unexplainable inconsistencies that conflict with mathematics along with eyewitness reports will never be convinced otherwise because they will never research all the inconsistencies. They simply dont want to know the truth. 

Much like all the guys who have convinced themselves that their fake HGH is real because they dont want to believe they wasted $1000's on bunk gear.

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## DSM4Life

> i agree dsm. this whole demo conspiracy is really nothing more than a therory. 
> 
> it's hard to believe that engineers and architecs built the twins to fall straight over onto other buildings if they were to be structurally compromised. i would think that if the buildings were to fall, they would be built to collaps onto they're footprints to minimize damage as much as possible exactly as they did. 
> 
> i think the developers knew exactly what they were doing during the building of the twins and don't think they would overlook the fact that the structures could possible come down. so why *wouldn't* they be built to fall as they did?


I watched an interview of one engineer who helped build/create the towers and he said the same time. We had to design them so if something were to happen they wouldn't fall over onto 1000 of people in the streets. But i am sure zabster151 knows more than the people who built the buildings and he will grace us with his vast knowledge on the topic.

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## HoRuS

> I watched an interview of one engineer who helped build/create the towers and he said the same time. We had to design them so if something were to happen they wouldn't fall over onto 1000 of people in the streets. But i am sure zabster151 knows more than the people who built the buildings and he will grace us with his vast knowledge on the topic.


I've watched numerous interviews with Doctors, Professors and Research Scientists, all of whom claimed that AAS will do serious damage to your health and were of no benefit to increasing muscle mass. Again I'll do my own research and make my own decision.

I also read reports that one of the engineers whom helped design the towers said that certain bracing was only looped around rails and was not solidly attached and may have been a design fault that made the towers weak. This was proven wrong by photos of the construction showing that all braces were solidly welded to the beams. Any of these people could have been paid to say whatever the government wanted them to say. There are just so many things that contradict the governments version of events.

Years ago, cigarettes were advertised as being healthy for you and they were claimed to help reduce stress and anxiety and promoted a sense of wellbeing. The government wanted us to believe this because of the taxes they were raking in from the sales. 

I don't think anyone is dumb if they choose to believe that 3 steel constructed highrise buildings collapsed from fire when it has never happened before in history because they are designed to withstand such events without collapsing and killing all those on lower floors, I simply choose to question things that have obvious inconsistencies.

Once again for those who didn't read those inconsistencies.....

*One involves the story about the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings. We had three buildings collapse there, the North Tower [WTC 1], the South Tower [WTC 2] and Building 7 [WTC 7]. Each was a high-rise steel-frame building. Now, steel-frame high-rise buildings have never in the history of the universe been brought down by fire.* *And yet on this day, three of them were allegedly brought down by fire. There have been experiments with buildings raging with fire. In the experiments, fire made them sag a little, but never caused them to collapse.* [See Madrid high-rise fire, page 34.] And yet on 9/11 these three buildings, which had relatively small fires in them, collapsed.

People have the image of the South Tower in their minds, and they think, Oh, these were towering infernos. *But most of the jet fuel exploded outside of the South Tower, which produced the really dramatic effect. But you have to remember, that effect only lasted for a few seconds, and the fuel burned up very quickly. In the South Tower there was relatively little fuel to feed the fire inside; so it would have had to be feeding on carpets, on desks and things like that. And yet the South Tower collapsed in less than an hour after it was hit.*

*The collapse of Building 7 is particularly unusual, and yet the 9/11 Commission never mentions it once in their report. Somehow fire got started in Building 7, which is two blocks away and was never hit by a plane. There was no jet fuel inside to feed the fire. There are photographs that show only small fires on floors 7 and 12 of this 47-story building. And yet at 5:20 in the afternoon it comes collapsing down in exactly the same way as the other buildings.*


*Now I stress in the same way because they all came straight down into their own footprint for the most part. They collapsed very quickly, within about ten seconds. That's amazing when you think about it, that fire could produce that kind of effect, just like controlled demolition.* In fact, on that very night, Dan Rather-viewing the collapse of Building 7-blurted out, "It looked just like one of those controlled demolitions."

Further evidence of Building 7 being brought down by controlled demolition came from Larry Silverstein, the man who had recently taken a lease on the entire complex.* In a PBS documentary from September 2002, Silverstein said he told the fire commander that the smartest thing to do was "pull it." Next, he says, they "made that decision to pull" and watched the building collapse. Pull is a term commonly used to describe using explosives to demolish a building. Silverstein allegedly made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7.*

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## goodlifting

> I watched an interview of one engineer who helped build/create the towers and he said the same time. We had to design them so if something were to happen they wouldn't fall over onto 1000 of people in the streets. But i am sure zabster151 knows more than the people who built the buildings and he will grace us with his vast knowledge on the topic.


i dunno dsm. i'm feeling kinda stupid right now.  :Aajack: 

i've watched the videos over and over again. i've watched the helpless people in the upper floors make the choice to jump or burn to death. it pisses me off. 

would you really live in a country that did that do it's own citizens to make a cheap ass political point and an excuse to invade another country? if you live in the u.s. and believe that our own our govt. fabricated the carnage that occured on 9/11 then why aren't you sprinting the hell out of the country?our govt. isn't perfect but jesus christ this isn't rwanda.

the people who are supporting the theory that this was a govt. conspiracy are fishing pretty damn hard. there's nothing wrong with questioning inconsistancies but it gets a bit ridculous after a while.

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## DSM4Life

> i dunno dsm. i'm feeling kinda stupid right now. 
> 
> i've watched the videos over and over again. i've watched the helpless people in the upper floors make the choice to jump or burn to death. it pisses me off. 
> 
> would you really live in a country that did that do it's own citizens to make a cheap ass political point and an excuse to invade another country? if you live in the u.s. and believe that our own our govt. fabricated the carnage that occured on 9/11 then why aren't you sprinting the hell out of the country?our govt. isn't perfect but jesus christ this isn't rwanda.
> 
> the people who are supporting the theory that this was a govt. conspiracy are fishing pretty damn hard. there's nothing wrong with questioning inconsistancies but it gets a bit ridculous after a while.


I DO NOT support the conspiracy theory that our government had a hand in this.

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## warchild

.....

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## goodlifting

> I DO NOT support the conspiracy theory that our government had a hand in this.


yeah i know you don't. i was ranting towards the supporters. should've stated that a bit better. my bad.

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## DSM4Life

I don't think our government is smart enough to pull it off.

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## zabster151

it does not matter that you people do not support the truth that is trying to be told. but just to let you know how big this really is. over half of the US thats 150 million people believe and support this. because they can see the evidence and are not blinded by the hope that the government wouldn't do this. there is a case going through congress it will pass it has the votes to re investigate this hole matter. we will find the truth. NIST has lied the government has lied and many other departments dealing with this day they have been caught and admitted it and retracted there statements many times about that day because people investigated this for themselves and they had to change there story. because they were caught lying or or doctoring paperwork to match there story.

and still no explanation for building 7 "weird" :Asskiss:

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## smokethedays

> well i have been on the bench to long...
> 
> Fvck the nation of islam, fvck all muslims. every attack on the us in the last 10 years has been from a fcking muslim. 
> we have had this fight a thousand times on here.
> 
> the main backer of this fvking mosque has said time and time again america is responsible for 9-11....for are ways.
> fck this guy, they can have fun finding a construction company to build the fvking thing.
> then i hope it fvking burns down.
> 
> ...


Just wow  :Jawdrop:

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## Aussiebb

> I don't think our government is smart enough to pull it off.


So if you think america didnt pull it off, so you think a poor nation like afghanistan, one of the poorest country in the world, with hand made weapons, with hunger, poverty, no infrastructure, no army etc pulled 911 off?

Can you imagine this, the afghans just finished the war with the russians, the country is ruined, dead ppl everywhere, people homeless etc, they all of a sudden turn around and say, **** this, lets bomb america and bring there wrath onto us. Why would they do that? They liberatee there country from the russians, they had no reason to attack america.

Hence since the controlled demo of the building and no plane hitting the pentagon, its impossible or impractible that the muslims had any involvement in sept 11

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## BgMc31

> it does not matter that you people do not support the truth that is trying to be told. but just to let you know how big this really is. over half of the US thats 150 million people believe and support this. because they can see the evidence and are not blinded by the hope that the government wouldn't do this. there is a case going through congress it will pass it has the votes to re investigate this hole matter. we will find the truth. NIST has lied the government has lied and many other departments dealing with this day they have been caught and admitted it and retracted there statements many times about that day because people investigated this for themselves and they had to change there story. because they were caught lying or or doctoring paperwork to match there story.
> 
> and still no explanation for building 7 "weird"


It amazes me, conspiracy guy (and yes I will continue to call you this), that you diminish everyone else's proof and continue to ask for more. You are more than welcome to your beliefs, no matter how misguided. But to claim (because you've done 'months' of research) it to be the truth. Your supposed evidence is no more convincing to me than mine is to you.

And your notion that 150 million Americans believe the same bullshit of you is completely asinine. Please provide peer reviewed proof of that assumption please.

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## BgMc31

> So if you think america didnt pull it off, so you think a poor nation like afghanistan, one of the poorest country in the world, with hand made weapons, with hunger, poverty, no infrastructure, no army etc pulled 911 off?
> 
> Can you imagine this, the afghans just finished the war with the russians, the country is ruined, dead ppl everywhere, people homeless etc, they all of a sudden turn around and say, **** this, lets bomb america and bring there wrath onto us. Why would they do that? They liberatee there country from the russians, they had no reason to attack america.
> 
> Hence since the controlled demo of the building and no plane hitting the pentagon, its impossible or impractible that the muslims had any involvement in sept 11


No one said Afghnistan pulled off 9/11. Al Queda is blamed for 9/11. Al Queda is backed by multi billionaires, backed by oil money (Saudi Arabia).

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## DSM4Life

> So if you think america didnt pull it off, so you think a poor nation like afghanistan, one of the poorest country in the world, with hand made weapons, with hunger, poverty, no infrastructure, no army etc pulled 911 off?
> 
> Can you imagine this, the afghans just finished the war with the russians, the country is ruined, dead ppl everywhere, people homeless etc, they all of a sudden turn around and say, **** this, lets bomb america and bring there wrath onto us. Why would they do that? They liberatee there country from the russians, they had no reason to attack america.
> 
> Hence since the controlled demo of the building and no plane hitting the pentagon, its impossible or impractible that the muslims had any involvement in sept 11


Yes I do.

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## zabster151

proof is there if you guys choose to not see it thats fine, the reason i started talking about this was to inform people of really interesting evidence in this matter. but if no body wants to know all good ill stop.

I do not have all the poll information to back how many actual people believe 9/11 was an inside job. but through out my research when they ask people state to state they are skeptical of why a building fell when no plane hit it. how there are so many connection to oil companies insurance comp big corporations, funding from all directions it has led to the collapse of the US economy and we can all see that today. we spend pretty much all the money we make as a country on military. i understand having military and i want a good one but at what cost to or economy. remember what happed to Russia when they spent this much money on military trying to fight all those countries. led to a very pore society and i am not a conspiracy guy i just have allot of interest in finding the truth to this matter. "what is a conspiracy guy someone who questions things and does not believe what he is told" then yes i am









building 7 ?  :Asskiss:

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## Aussiebb

> No one said Afghnistan pulled off 9/11. Al Queda is blamed for 9/11. Al Queda is backed by multi billionaires, backed by oil money (Saudi Arabia).



Your right man, i must be wrong.Thats why there was no arab or muslim names on any flight lists, that some of the hijackers are still alive, that these muslims where so extremist and hated america they were seen in night clubs days before sept 11, then expecting to get there 72 virgins in heaven.

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## BgMc31

> Your right man, i must be wrong.Thats why there was no arab or muslim names on any flight lists, that some of the hijackers are still alive, that these muslims where so extremist and hated america they were seen in night clubs days before sept 11, then expecting to get there 72 virgins in heaven.


 :Hmmmm:  I was merely responding on your post stating we went to war with Afganistan like Russia. When in turn we aren't at war with Afganistan but with extremists who train in Afganistan, Waristan, and Pakistan. What are you going on about?  :Hmmmm:

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## BgMc31

> proof is there if you guys choose to not see it thats fine, the reason i started talking about this was to inform people of really interesting evidence in this matter. but if no body wants to know all good ill stop.
> 
> I do not have all the poll information to back how many actual people believe 9/11 was an inside job. *but through out my research when they ask people state to state they are skeptical of why a building fell when no plane hit it. how there are so many connection to oil companies insurance comp big corporations, funding from all directions it has led to the collapse of the US economy and we can all see that today*. we spend pretty much all the money we make as a country on military. i understand having military and i want a good one but at what cost to or economy. remember what happed to Russia when they spent this much money on military trying to fight all those countries. led to a very pore society and i am not a conspiracy guy i just have allot of interest in finding the truth to this matter. "what is a conspiracy guy someone who questions things and does not believe what he is told" then yes i am
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where's the proof? Who was asking these questions state to state? And building 7? I already provided a link to a theory that contradicts your's. You just choose not to believe it...

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## zabster151

all over local news and news papers nation wide the question has been asked research it your self you don't believe me anyway.

still no explanation for building 7. All you do is nit pick 
i love it

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## BgMc31

> all over local news and news papers nation wide the question has been asked research it your self you don't believe me anyway.
> 
> still no explanation for building 7. All you do is nit pick 
> i love it


Which news outlets? Which newspapers? C'mon, Mr. Research. And I didn't nit pick. You asked for proof of the contrary and I provided peer reviewed proof to contradict your allegations. The people who wrote the article I provided have just as much credibility as the one's you refer to as your proof. How is that nit picking?

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## zabster151

ae911truth.org are the people and enginers who built the buildings

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## Flagg

> I don't think our government is smart enough to pull it off.


I know Bush is dumb, but thats nothing to say Cheney or Rumsfeld weren't. 

I'm not hugely into conspiracy theories. I believe Neil Armstrong walked on the Moon and I believe that the Holocaust really happened. 

But something about 911 really stinks. There are too many variables to suggest that it was purely a terrorist attack. How does a plane get close enough to hit the Pentagon without getting shot down, and how come there was no plane wreckage? How does building 7 collapse on it's own. 

It's good to question these things. Too much of the population is fed a diet of media fear and Pop Idol, because the Government doesn't like people that think.

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## zabster151

> Which news outlets? Which newspapers? C'mon, Mr. Research. And I didn't nit pick. You asked for proof of the contrary and I provided peer reviewed proof to contradict your allegations. The people who wrote the article I provided have just as much credibility as the one's you refer to as your proof. How is that nit picking?


Mr. reasearch here. so you may not be aware but there is huge shift in society going on and most people don't by the bull there selling any more. the news outlets i am talking about are local and major station they both have ran polls asking Americans what they think really happed that day. and most polls/Internet polls lead in the direction of people really think something els happened
and no i am not going to find you a link to every poll in America its called "Google" try it.







building 7 anyone? anyone ?  :Asskiss:

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## BgMc31

> Mr. reasearch here. so you may not be aware but there is huge shift in society going on and most people don't by the bull there selling any more. the news outlets i am talking about are local and major station they both have ran polls asking Americans what they think really happed that day. and most polls/Internet polls lead in the direction of people really think something els happened
> and no i am not going to find you a link to every poll in America its called "Google" try it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> building 7 anyone? anyone ?


I'm not going to do your research for you. You made the accusation/claim, now you back it up. What news media? What news outlets? What polls are you referring to? And using one website for you basis of truth isn't doing research.

Building 7? I already provided proof, now here's more?

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/9-11-...-fire-and-heat

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## zabster151

> I'm not going to do your research for you. You made the accusation/claim, now you back it up. What news media? *every loacal news station in every state or news paper* What news outlets? * cnn fox abc nbc all major statons have touched on this subject and have asked there listers s%$t even radio radio stations have asked this question its not a secret*  What polls are you referring to? they have all ran polls And using one website for you basis of truth isn't doing research. *http://ae911truth.org/ is the best one to show you on this topic 
> but there is http://www.prisonplanet.com/ http://maxkeiser.com/
> *
> 
> 
> *i can tell you do not know much about what is going on because you keep referring back to the polls i talked about yes they are probably exaggerated and i am probably wrong about the numbers. no problem with me because there is a movement and the people are aware and more people are seeing the truth every day and there are to many teachers ,scientist, engineers and Architects who know this is all wrong the to many red flags the math the lies stock markets showed signs*
> 
> Building 7? I already provided proof, now here's more? *NIST, really have you been reading anything i post NIST retracted there final findings numerous times because they were caught for lying about free fall speed 
> *
> http://www.nowpublic.com/world/9-11-...-fire-and-heat



Fires in the 47-story office tower at the edge of the World Trade Center site undermined floor beams and critical structural columns, federal investigators concluded Thursday, as they attempted to curb still-rampant speculation that explosives or fuel fires were responsible for the building’s collapse of Sept. 11, 2001. you believe that lol try again

let me ask you this if i stood at the top of building 1 and a plane hit building 2 and when building 2 started to fall and i dropped a bowling ball of building 1 at the exact second what would hit the ground first building or the bowling ball ?

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## zabster151

Unusual Trading in Stock Options Prior to 9/11: Government Destroyed Documents Regarding Pre-9/11 Put Options 
June 16, 2010 

On September 19, 2001, CBS reported:
Sources tell CBS News that the afternoon before the attack, alarm bells were sounding over unusual trading in the U.S. stock options market.

An extraordinary number of trades were betting that American Airlines stock price would fall.

The trades are called "puts" and they involved at least 450,000 shares of American. But what raised the red flag is more than 80 percent of the orders were "puts", far outnumbering "call" options, those betting the stock would rise.

Sources say they have never seen that kind of imbalance before, reports CBS News Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson. Normally the numbers are fairly even.

After the terrorist attacks, American Airline stock price did fall obviously by 39 percent, and according to sources, that translated into well over $5 million total profit for the person or persons who bet the stock would fall.

***

At least one Wall Street firm reported their suspicions about this activity to the SEC shortly after the attack.

The same thing happened with United Airlines on the Chicago Board Options Exchange four days before the attack. An extremely unbalanced number of trades betting United's stock price would fall — also transformed into huge profits when it did after the hijackings.

"We can directly work backwards from a trade on the floor of the Chicago Board Options Exchange. The trader is linked to a brokerage firm. The brokerage firm received the order to buy that 'put' option from either someone within a brokerage firm speculating, or from one of the customers," said Randall Dodd of the Economic Strategy Institute.

U.S. investigators want to know whether Osama bin Laden was the ultimate "inside trader" — profiting from a tragedy he's suspected of masterminding to finance his operation. Authorities are also investigating possibly suspicious trading in Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Japan.

On September 29, 2001, the San Francisco Chronicle pointed out: 

"Usually, if someone has a windfall like that, you take the money and run," said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "Whoever did this thought the exchange would not be closed for four days. 

"This smells real bad." 
***

There was an unusually large jump in purchases of put options on the stocks of UAL Corp. and AMR Corp. in the three business days before the attack on major options exchanges in the United States. On one day, UAL put option purchases were 25 times greater than the year-to-date average. In the month before the attacks, short sales jumped by 40 percent for UAL and 20 percent for American. 

***
Spokesmen for British securities regulators and the AXA Group also confirmed yesterday that investigations are continuing. 

The source familiar with the United trades identified Deutsche Banc Alex. Brown, the American investment banking arm of German giant Deutsche Bank, as the investment bank used to purchase at least some of the options. 

***

Last weekend, German central bank president Ernst Welteke said a study pointed to "terrorism insider trading" in those stocks. 

On October 19, 2001, the Chronicle wrote:

On Oct. 2, Canadian securities officials confirmed that the SEC privately had asked North American investment firms to review their records for evidence of trading activity in the shares of 38 companies, suggesting that some buyers and sellers might have had advance knowledge of the attacks. 

***
FMR Corp. spokeswoman Anne Crowley, said her firm -- which owns the giant Fidelity family of mutual funds in Boston -- has already provided "account and transaction" information to investigators, and had no objection to the new procedures announced yesterday. Crowley declined to describe the nature of the information previously shared with the government.
So the effort to track down the source of the puts was certainly quite substantial.

What were the results of the investigation?

Apparently, we'll never know.

Specifically, David Callahan - executive editor of SmartCEO - submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the SEC regarding the pre-9/11 put options.

The SEC responded:

We have been advised that the potentially responsive records have been destroyed.
If the SEC had responded by producing documents showing that the pre-9/11 put options had an innocent explanation (such as a hedge made by a smaller airline), that would be udnerstandable.

If the SEC had responded by saying that the documents were classified as somehow protecting proprietary financial information, I wouldn't like it, but I would at least understand the argument.

But destroyed? Why?

Not the First Time

This is not the first destruction of documentary evidence related to 9/11.

I wrote in March:
As I pointed out in 2007: 

The 9/11 Commission Report was largely based on a third-hand account of what tortured detainees said, with two of the three parties in the communication being government employees.

The official 9/11 Commission Report states:

Chapters 5 and 7 rely heavily on information obtained from captured al Qaeda members. A number of these "detainees" have firsthand knowledge of the 9/11 plot. Assessing the truth of statements by these witnesses-sworn enemies of the United States-is challenging. Our access to them has been limited to the review of intelligence reports based on communications received from the locations where the actual interrogations take place. We submitted questions for use in the interrogations, but had no control over whether, when, or how questions of particular interest would be asked. Nor were we allowed to talk to the interrogators so that we could better judge the credibility of the detainees and clarify ambiguities in the reporting.
In other words, the 9/11 Commissioners were not allowed to speak with the detainees, or even their interrogators. Instead, they got their information third-hand.

The Commission didn't really trust the interrogation testimony. For example, one of the primary architects of the 9/11 Commission Report, Ernest May, said in May 2005:

We never had full confidence in the interrogation reports as historical sources.
As I noted last May: 

Newsweek is running an essay by [New York Times investigative reporter] Philip Shenon saying [that the 9/11 Commission Report was unreliable because most of the information was based on the statements of tortured detainees]:

The commission appears to have ignored obvious clues throughout 2003 and 2004 that its account of the 9/11 plot and Al Qaeda's history relied heavily on information obtained from detainees who had been subjected to torture, or something not far from it.

The panel raised no public protest over the CIA's interrogation methods, even though news reports at the time suggested how brutal those methods were. In fact, the commission demanded that the CIA carry out new rounds of interrogations in 2004 to get answers to its questions.

That has troubling implications for the credibility of the commission's final report. In intelligence circles, testimony obtained through torture is typically discredited; research shows that people will say anything under threat of intense physical pain.

And yet it is a distinct possibility that Al Qaeda suspects who were the exclusive source of information for long passages of the commission's report may have been subjected to "enhanced" interrogation techniques, or at least threatened with them, because of the 9/11 Commission....

Information from CIA interrogations of two of the three—KSM and Abu Zubaydah—is cited throughout two key chapters of the panel's report focusing on the planning and execution of the attacks and on the history of Al Qaeda.

Footnotes in the panel's report indicate when information was obtained from detainees interrogated by the CIA. An analysis by NBC News found that more than a quarter of the report's footnotes—441 of some 1,700—referred to detainees who were subjected to the CIA's "enhanced" interrogation program, including the trio who were waterboarded.

Commission members note that they repeatedly pressed the Bush White House and CIA for direct access to the detainees, but the administration refused. So the commission forwarded questions to the CIA, whose interrogators posed them on the panel's behalf.

The commission's report gave no hint that harsh interrogation methods were used in gathering information, stating that the panel had "no control" over how the CIA did its job; the authors also said they had attempted to corroborate the information "with documents and statements of others."

But how could the commission corroborate information known only to a handful of people in a shadowy terrorist network, most of whom were either dead or still at large?

Former senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, a Democrat on the commission, told me last year he had long feared that the investigation depended too heavily on the accounts of Al Qaeda detainees who were physically coerced into talking ....
 
Kerrey said it might take "a permanent 9/11 commission" to end the remaining mysteries of September 11.

Abu Zubaida was well-known to the FBI as being literally crazy. The Washington Post quotes "FBI officials, including agents who questioned [alleged Al-Qaeda member Abu Zubaida] after his capture or reviewed documents seized from his home" as concluding that he was:

[L]argely a loudmouthed and mentally troubled hotelier whose credibility dropped as the CIA subjected him to a simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding and to other "enhanced interrogation" measures.

For example:

Retired FBI agent Daniel Coleman, who led an examination of documents after Abu Zubaida's capture in early 2002 and worked on the case, said the CIA's harsh tactics cast doubt on the credibility of Abu Zubaida's information. 

"I don't have confidence in anything he says, because once you go down that road, everything you say is tainted," Coleman said, referring to the harsh measures. "He was talking before they did that to him, but they didn't believe him. The problem is they didn't realize he didn't know all that much."

***
"They said, 'You've got to be kidding me,' " said Coleman, recalling accounts from FBI employees who were there. " 'This guy's a Muslim. That's not going to win his confidence. Are you trying to get information out of him or just belittle him?'" Coleman helped lead the bureau's efforts against Osama bin Laden for a decade, ending in 2004.

Coleman goes on to say:

Abu Zubaida ... was a "safehouse keeper" with mental problems who claimed to know more about al-Qaeda and its inner workings than he really did.

***

Looking at other evidence, including a serious head injury that Abu Zubaida had suffered years earlier, Coleman and others at the FBI believed that he had severe mental problems that called his credibility into question. "They all knew he was crazy, and they knew he was always on the damn phone," Coleman said, referring to al-Qaeda operatives. "You think they're going to tell him anything?"

ACLU, FireDogLake's Marcy Wheeler and RawStory broke the story yesterday that (quoting RawStory):

Senior Bush administration officials sternly cautioned the 9/11 Commission against probing too deeply into the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, according to a document recently obtained by the ACLU.

The notification came in a letter dated January 6, 2004, addressed by Attorney General John Ashcroft, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and CIA Director George J. Tenet. The ACLU described it as a fax sent by David Addington, then-counsel to former vice president Dick Cheney.

In the message, the officials denied the bipartisan commission's request to question terrorist detainees, informing its two senior-most members that doing so would "cross" a "line" and obstruct the administration's ability to protect the nation.

"In response to the Commission's expansive requests for access to secrets, the executive branch has provided such access in full cooperation," the letter read. "There is, however, a line that the Commission should not cross -- the line separating the Commission's proper inquiry into the September 11, 2001 attacks from interference with the Government's ability to safeguard the national security, including protection of Americans from future terrorist attacks."

***
"The Commission staff's proposed participation in questioning of detainees would cross that line," the letter continued. "As the officers of the United States responsible for the law enforcement, defense and intelligence functions of the Government, we urge your Commission not to further pursue the proposed request to participate in the questioning of detainees."
Destruction of Evidence

The interrogators made videotapes of the interrogations. The 9/11 Commission asked for all tapes, but the CIA lied and said there weren't any.

The CIA then destroyed the tapes.

Specifically, the New York Times confirms that the government swore that it had turned over all of the relevant material regarding the statements of the people being interrogated:
“The commission did formally request material of this kind from all relevant agencies, and the commission was assured that we had received all the material responsive to our request,” said Philip D. Zelikow, who served as executive director of the Sept. 11 commission .... 
“No tapes were acknowledged or turned over, nor was the commission provided with any transcript prepared from recordings,” he said.

But is the destruction of the tapes -- and hiding from the 9/11 Commission the fact that the tapes existed -- a big deal? Yes, actually. As the Times goes on to state:

Daniel Marcus, a law professor at American University who served as general counsel for the Sept. 11 commission and was involved in the discussions about interviews with Al Qaeda leaders, said he had heard nothing about any tapes being destroyed. 

If tapes were destroyed, he said, “it’s a big deal, it’s a very big deal,” because it could amount to obstruction of justice to withhold evidence being sought in criminal or fact-finding investigations. 

Indeed, 9/11 Commission co-chairs Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton wrote:

Those who knew about those videotapes — and did not tell us about them — obstructed our investigation.

The CIA also is refusing to release any transcripts from the interrogation sessions. As I wrote a year ago:

What does the fact that the CIA destroyed numerous videotapes of Guantanamo interrogations, but has 3,000 pages of transcripts from those tapes really mean?

Initially, it means that CIA's claim that it destroyed the video tapes to protect the interrogators' identity is false. Why? Well, the transcripts contain the identity of the interrogator. And the CIA is refusing to produce the transcripts.

Obviously, the CIA could have "blurred" the face of the interrogator and shifted his voice (like you've seen on investigative tv shows like 60 Minutes) to protect the interrogator's identity. And since the CIA is not releasing the transcripts, it similarly could have refused to release the videos.

The fact that the CIA instead destroyed the videos shows that it has something to hide.
Trying to Create a False Linkage?

I have repeatedly pointed out that the top interrogation experts say that torture doesn't work.

As I wrote last May:

The fact that people were tortured in order to justify the Iraq war by making a false linkage between Iraq and 9/11 is gaining attention. 

Many people are starting to understand that top Bush administration officials not only knowingly lied about a non-existent connection between Al Qaida and Iraq, but they pushed and insisted that interrogators use special torture methods aimed at extracting false confessions to attempt to create such a false linkage.

Indeed, the Senate Armed Services Committee found that the U.S. used torture techniques specifically aimed at extracting false confessions (and see this).

And as Paul Krugman wrote in the New York Times:

Let’s say this slowly: the Bush administration wanted to use 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq, even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So it tortured people to make them confess to the nonexistent link.
[A]ccording to NBC news: 

• Much of the 9/11 Commission Report was based upon the testimony of people who were tortured

• At least four of the people whose interrogation figured in the 9/11 Commission Report have claimed that they told interrogators information as a way to stop being "tortured."

• One of the Commission's main sources of information was tortured until he agreed to sign a confession that he was NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO READ

• The 9/11 Commission itself doubted the accuracy of the torture confessions, and yet kept their doubts to themselves

In fact, the self-confessed "mastermind" of 9/11 also confessed to crimes which he could not have committed. He later said that he gave the interrogators a lot of false information - telling them what he thought they wanted to hear - in an attempt to stop the torture. We also know that he was heavily tortured specifically for the purpose of trying to obtain false information about 9/11 - specifically, that Iraq had something to do with it.

***
Remember, as discussed above, the torture techniques used by the Bush administration to try to link Iraq and 9/11 were specifically geared towards creating false confessions (they were techniques created by the communists to be used in show trials).

***
The above-linked NBC news report quotes a couple of legal experts to this effect:
Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, says he is "shocked" that the Commission never asked about extreme interrogation measures.

"If you’re sitting at the 9/11 Commission, with all the high-powered lawyers on the Commission and on the staff, first you ask what happened rather than guess," said Ratner, whose center represents detainees at Guantanamo. "Most people look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a trusted historical document. If their conclusions were supported by information gained from torture, therefore their conclusions are suspect."...

Karen Greenberg, director of the Center for Law and Security at New York University’s School of Law, put it this way: "[I]t should have relied on sources not tainted. It calls into question how we were willing to use these interrogations to construct the narrative."
The interrogations were "used" to "construct the narrative" which the 9/11 Commission decided to use.

Remember (as explored in the book The Commission by respected journalist Philip Shenon), that the Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission was an administration insider whose area of expertise is the creation and maintenance of "public myths" thought to be true, even if not actually true. He wrote an outline of what he wanted the report to say very early in the process, controlled what the Commission did and did not analyze, then limited the scope of the Commission's inquiry so that the overwhelming majority of questions about 9/11 remained unasked (see this article and this article).

***
As constitutional law expert Jonathan Turley stated:

[The 9/11 Commission] was a commission that was really made for Washington - a commission composed of political appointees of both parties that ran interference for those parties - a commission that insisted at the beginning it would not impose blame on individuals.

Other Obstructions of Justice

[Other examples of obstructions of justice include the following:]
• The chairs of both the 9/11 Commission and the Joint Inquiry of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees into 9/11 said that government "minders" obstructed the investigation into 9/11 by intimidating witnesses

• The 9/11 Commissioners concluded that officials from the Pentagon lied to the Commission, and considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements

• The tape of interviews of air traffic controllers on-duty on 9/11 was intentionally destroyed by crushing the cassette by hand, cutting the tape into little pieces, and then dropping the pieces in different trash cans around the building as shown by this NY Times article (summary version is free; full version is pay-per-view) and by this article from the Chicago Sun-Times

• Investigators for the Congressional Joint Inquiry discovered that an FBI informant had hosted and even rented a room to two hijackers in 2000 and that, when the Inquiry sought to interview the informant, the FBI refused outright, and then hid him in an unknown location, and that a high-level FBI official stated these blocking maneuvers were undertaken under orders from the White House. As the New York Times notes:

Senator Bob Graham, the Florida Democrat who is a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, accused the White House on Tuesday of covering up evidence . . .

* * *
The accusation stems from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's refusal to allow investigators for a Congressional inquiry and the independent Sept. 11 commission to interview an informant, Abdussattar Shaikh, who had been the landlord in San Diego of two Sept. 11 hijackers.

In his book "Intelligence Matters," Mr. Graham, the co-chairman of the Congressional inquiry with Representative Porter J. Goss, Republican of Florida, said an F.B.I. official wrote them in November 2002 and said "the administration would not sanction a staff interview with the source.'' On Tuesday, Mr. Graham called the letter "a smoking gun" and said, "The reason for this cover-up goes right to the White House."

We don't need to even discuss conspiracy theories about what happened on 9/11 to be incredibly disturbed about what happened after: the government's obstructions of justice.

Indeed, the 9/11 Commissioners themselves are disturbed:
• The Commission's co-chairs said that the CIA (and likely the White House) "obstructed our investigation"

• 9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that "There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . ."

• 9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting"

• 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now compromised"; and "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up"

• The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) - who led the 9/11 staff's inquiry - said "At some level of the government, at some point in time...there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened". He also said "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is not spin. This is not true."

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## zabster151

The Question of the Day is .... 

Will the Dollar fall or not? 
I know you're interested in finance.


































TO MY FINANCIALLY FOCUSED FRIENDS



The Key to Financial Survival is to be a Tight Ass!

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## zaggahamma

> The Question of the Day is .... 
> 
> Will the Dollar fall or not? 
> I know you're interested in finance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i think another inside job will make the dollar fall

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## stevey_6t9

fuk zabster you wont let it rest...

once again the theory will never be proven correct, so it remains a 'theory' and so far its not an accepted one by the world.

if it was proven, you living in america and all, your country would collapse in riots, the dollar would collapse, the government will be over throw and you wud have another civil war. lets hope it stays a theory  :Wink:

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## warchild

after reading the nyfd fire cheifs report i believe the building did fall from the plane attacks. http://www.debunking911.c o m

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## zabster151

> fuk zabster you wont let it rest...
> 
> once again the theory will never be proven correct, so it remains a 'theory' and so far its not an accepted one by the world.
> 
> if it was proven, you living in america and all, your country would collapse in riots, the dollar would collapse, the government will be over throw and you wud have another civil war. lets hope it stays a theory



lol, i love chatting with you guys i work for myself so got lots of free time to pop in and post. and this is a really interesting subjet to me . no hard feelings all  :7up:

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## jojomcgo

Ok i want to throw *MY 2 CENTS* in here,
Why is every one scared and concerned with muslim sensitivity what about our freaking sensitivity how the hell are they going to be allowed to do this!

Cordoba House is what there going to name this and there is a history here people need to learn why they are naming this *CORDOBA HOUSE* this was a time when christians where slaughtered by the muslims, people need to wake up.

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## DSM4Life

> Ok i want to throw *MY 2 CENTS* in here,
> Why is every one scared and concerned with muslim sensitivity what about our freaking sensitivity how the hell are they going to be allowed to do this!
> 
> Cordoba House is what there going to name this and there is a history here people need to learn why they are naming this *CORDOBA HOUSE* *this was a time when christians where slaughtered by the muslims*, people need to wake up.


I didn't know that...I just made a donation to the Cordoba House.

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## jojomcgo

This what i think of the mosque!

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## AlphaGenetics

Mabe the terrorists wont bomb the freedom towers because the mosqe is so close. We should put one by all important buldings.

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## Fox23

I think any religious building is a waste of space.

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## Atomini

While we're building mosques at ground zero, lets build an imperial Japanese embassy in Pearl Harbor too.

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## crete

We do not need a mosque at ground zero..... thats just rediculous.

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## BJJ

^^^
Where do you think is it needed?

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## Dont wanna be old

> While we're building mosques at ground zero, lets build an imperial Japanese embassy in Pearl Harbor too.


 :Haha:

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## nath78

> but 99% of terrorists are muslims.
> 
> I hope the mosque gets blown up if it goes ahead, a little eye for an eye.


.....x2

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## nath78

> while we're building mosques at ground zero, lets build an imperial japanese embassy in pearl harbor too.


i know aii lol

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## Western Man

I'm not buying the argument that building a "cultural center" at ground zero is merely an act of Muslim citizens practicing their religious freedom. It seems to me that there would be a vast amount of potential real estate withing NY for Muslims to invest in. Therefore, I will continue to think that there is some underlying reason why it is so important for this mosque to be erected. You can surmise for yourselves what that reason may be.

Moreover, if non-extremist Islam really wanted to separate itself from radical Islam, demonstrate that there is a major difference and that they empathize and are sensitive to the atrocity of 9/11, then they wouldn't even contemplate the creation of this mosque with such close proximity to ground zero.

Religious zealots frighten the shit out of me.

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## zaggahamma

> I'm not buying the argument that building a "cultural center" at ground zero is merely an act of Muslim citizens practicing their religious freedom. It seems to me that there would be a vast amount of potential real estate withing NY for Muslims to invest in. Therefore, I will continue to think that there is some underlying reason why it is so important for this mosque to be erected. You can surmise for yourselves what that reason may be.
> 
> Moreover, if non-extremist Islam really wanted to separate itself from radical Islam, demonstrate that there is a major difference and that they empathize and are sensitive to the atrocity of 9/11, then they wouldn't even contemplate the creation of this mosque with such close proximity to ground zero.
> 
> Religious zealots frighten the shit out of me.


best post so far imo

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## goodlifting

i like that one too ^^

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## DSM4Life

> I'm not buying the argument that building a "cultural center" at ground zero is merely an act of Muslim citizens practicing their religious freedom. It seems to me that there would be a vast amount of potential real estate withing NY for Muslims to invest in. Therefore, I will continue to think that there is some underlying reason why it is so important for this mosque to be erected. You can surmise for yourselves what that reason may be.
> 
> Moreover, if non-extremist Islam really wanted to separate itself from radical Islam, demonstrate that there is a major difference and that they empathize and are sensitive to the atrocity of 9/11, then they wouldn't even contemplate the creation of this mosque with such close proximity to ground zero.
> 
> Religious zealots frighten the shit out of me.


He said erected, niceeeeeeeee.

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## tupollo

> This was almost an interesting thread until the conspiracy bollocks started, those that believe the US (cia) were behind the 9,11 bombings should grow up because your starting to sound really retarded and id have to question your age.....



this....so this...

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## Kiki

I'd like to chime in a little here...

Father is Kuwaiti, mother is American. My father is Muslim, my mother is Catholic originally of Italian decent, and I was raised as a Muslim, however don't consider myself one not because of bad sentiment, but because of the fact that religion on a whole to me is man made and was a tool used to create law and order and to control populations. I've lived on both sides of the world. Most people are blinded by their own ignorance, and the local news channels or newspapers they read continues to fuel that ignorance. 

I don't understand how some people actually watch and believe what they see on Fox news. Some of the stuff they spew on that channel is just as bad as the garbage arabic news channel which are anti west.

I think people need to be much more skeptical of what they are reading or watching for world news. People need to remember that not everything is the truth, and that biased papers and channels exist. People also need to remember that higher powers exist, and some of these powers control the media. Controlling the media is propaganda, just not as blatantly obvious.

On the topic of 9/11, I find it impossible that a group of terrorist were able to fly a plane into the Pentagon. The States has the most advanced military hardware, it's impossible to fly a commercial airliner into one of the most important military command centers in the world that is constantly being monitored by radar and that has airfields with fighter jets that could get in the air and circling the pentagon in minutes.

The most logical reason behind 9/11 was that it's an inside job, as a precursor to invade Iraq. Oil contracts = Big bucks. The amount of money gained through these contracts was obviously an incentive for this inside job to be carried out.

Muslim terrorists exist, but they're mostly in the poorer countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. Terrorists or people that preach that shit get hunted down in Kuwait. The government here does not tolerate anyone going around in public, or on T.V, preaching strong anti West sentiment. Are there terrorists in Kuwait? sure, but they're mostly very secretive about it and will never be out in the open about it. But hey, just as these people exist here so do these people exist every where else. A few bad apples should not make a whole religion look bad. 

I do agree however that building a Mosque on ground zero is inappropriate.

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## zaggahamma

> I'd like to chime in a little here...
> 
> Father is Kuwaiti, mother is American. My father is Muslim, my mother is Catholic originally of Italian decent, and I was raised as a Muslim, however don't consider myself one not because of bad sentiment, but because of the fact that religion on a whole to me is man made and was a tool used to create law and order and to control populations. I've lived on both sides of the world. Most people are blinded by their own ignorance, and the local news channels or newspapers they read continues to fuel that ignorance. 
> 
> I don't understand how some people actually watch and believe what they see on Fox news. Some of the stuff they spew on that channel is just as bad as the garbage arabic news channel which are anti west.
> 
> I think people need to be much more skeptical of what they are reading or watching for world news. People need to remember that not everything is the truth, and that biased papers and channels exist. People also need to remember that higher powers exist, and some of these powers control the media. Controlling the media is propaganda, just not as blatantly obvious.
> 
> On the topic of 9/11, I find it impossible that a group of terrorist were able to fly a plane into the Pentagon. The States has the most advanced military hardware, it's impossible to fly a commercial airliner into one of the most important military command centers in the world that is constantly being monitored by radar and that has airfields with fighter jets that could get in the air and circling the pentagon in minutes.
> ...


in your opinion is fox news the worse or the only news channel that misinforms/misleaads

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## tupollo

> I do agree however that building a Mosque on ground zero is inappropriate.


why?

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