# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  HPGA/HPTA CRASH - RESTART? Is there hope?

## mavsman41

Hey guys,

First I would like to please ask that you refrain from criticizing my mistakes. I need advice and productive input so that I can make the best educated decisions regarding my health. This will be a long post but I hope I can get some of you to take the time. I would really appreciate your input. I am 24 and dealing with low testosterone and the related symptoms. I've made some mistakes in my ignorance and I just want my health back. Here we go:

I am 24. 6'3. 210 lbs. 13% BF BP 245 x 6/Squat 325 x 8/Shoulder Press 85 x 8 - you would not think I was hypogonadal. I am well developed and wear a beard.

Last summer in July I took a prohormone for 6 weeks (epi "clone"). I used nolvadex only pct for 4 weeks but I now think the tamoxifen was actually fake.

In October (yes I waited this long) I decided to go get checked for mono because I was constantly lethargic and was dead in the gym. I also requested that a blood panel be done for my testosterone levels . Mono was negative, but my testosterone was low (190 ng/ml!) This was terrifying so I made the first apt. I could with the local urologist. I gave my urologist my history of abusing AAS and he concluded that I should probably just wait for my body to work itself out.

I shared that in highschool at the age of 16 my friends and I all tried out a product called spawn and that this was a highly toxic, legal steroid . I also explained that I dabbled again with other products I found at the local GNC and that in college I ran 2 cycles of test enanthate and winstrol for 6 wks each with nolvadex only as a pct. ( I know, this is idiotic! )

I explained that I had felt great these last few years before my most recent prohormone use. He concluded time was my best friend. I did blood work for the next few months:

I do not have the blood work in front of me but i do have my TT written down. I will request my records and update so you can see the result of my full panels. I also remember that I was low in FSH and LH each time, indicating secondary hypogonadism.

Initial Oct blood work: TT 190
Nov blood work: TT 202
late Nov blood work: TT 282
February 12: TT 327

Guys I know these are all really low numbers and this is terrifying. I do not want to be on TRT because this is a lifelong commitment and I do want to have children. I am hoping time and some assistance could get my body back on track. My doctor put me on 25 mg clomid/ED last week and I will be running this until next month when I can finally see the best urologist in Texas. From my research it looks like I am secondary Hypgonadal. I need your advice in how to approach my next doctors visit.

It is a good sign that my levels are increasing on their own, right? I understand we do not have a baseline for pre AAS use, but I always had an amazing sex drive and was lean and muscular so I assume I was healthy (500-800 or so)

Should this clomid help my pituitary pick up the slack and signal the testes? Or should I continue to deal with the crash naturally and let my body do it's own recovery?

When I speak to the new urologist, should I request HCG /tamoxifen to jumpstart my system?

PLEASE ADVISE. THANK YOU.

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## austinite

Clomid is likely all you need at this stage. I would follow the docs advice.

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## mavsman41

Ok thanks Austinite. Should I expect to ride this out for a few months, then taper and see what my baseline looks like a month after clomid?

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## BG

Moved you to trt section you should get more replies

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## jimmyinkedup

I too think your doctor is on the right track. There will be no need or reason to taper off the clomid. You should take it and then wait 6-8weeks after you stop to get blood work that will be an accurate reflection of where your natural, unaffected test levels are.
I do think that while the increases have been small they have been consistent and I would take that as a good sign. There is a good possibility the clomid therapy will do the trick for you. Keep us posted on how this progresses.

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## kelkel

Agree with everyone. Your doc's on the correct path. I'd still be curious about the rest of your BW though, cortisol, prolactin, thyroid issues can all suppress LH levels

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## mavsman41

Well thanks guys. I will have to go in person to retrieve my records and I will post its entirety ASAP.

I appreciate all the input.

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## mavsman41

Thanks BG. First post ever - my mistake.

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## mavsman41

I am not sure why they did not fax me the LH, FSH and some of the estrogen numbers. These places are very frustrating to deal with!

I would appreciate any insight into my progress. I made a slow increase naturally from the shockingly low 182 to 194, from 194 to 202, from 202 to 280, then from 327 to 538 with clomid in my system. The doc believes my levels will continue to rise for the next 3-4 wks. He said my downstairs was good to go and any atrophy I may have experienced is not noticeable but rather the boys look A OK. He also indicated they could increase in size?

I have read that with clomid, my testosterone should skyrocket. I have not experienced that, but there has been progress. Should I feel optimistic? I know my levels will drop significantly upon stopping so I am hoping that in the next month I can reach 3X my initial 324.

Any input is really appreciated guys. As you know testosterone is so important to well being and obviously girls and fitness. I don't think I will ever put another chemical in my body after this shutdown - I just want my health. I hope my system can recover.

Thoughts? While my test came up, my free t barely increased. I know everyone wants to see my LH and FSH so I apologize and will request the full records once again.

PS - almost no sides on the clomid. Probably because I have kept the dosage at the reasonable dose of 25 mg. No estrogen sides (nipple sensitivity, emotional moments, sadness beyond what I already had) and no vision issues or headaches. Joints have hurt a few times but I have been lifting heavy lately and training for a 5K as well. Strength is up. Body fat slightly lower. 

I hope this may be help to someone in a similar situation. I'd happily answer any questions. CHEERS.

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## mavsman41

This should have preceded the last post but my computer was freezing.
Update:

Date:4/14/15 *** w/ 3.5 wks clomid at 25mg ED
TT: 538 (175 - 781)
SHBG: 36.6 ( 13.2 - 89.5)
Free Test: 10.7 (6 - 27)
Estriadol: 46 (anything <63 ok)

Date:3/13/2015
TT:329.3
SHBG: 26.6
Free Test: 7.4
Estriadol: 48

Date:11/05/2014
TT: 194.5
SHBG:26.6
Free Test:4.2

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## kelkel

Your focus needs to be on your free test levels, not total test.
Give it time and keep monitoring.

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## mavsman41

I agree Kelkel. I will be patient and give it time. Do you think there is something I could pair with the clomid to raise the Free T?

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## kelkel

Not really as your shbg appears fine. Optimized Vit D levels are always a plus and will help a bit. Just know your levels before supplementing and then monitor them.

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## mavsman41

Thanks again for all your advice Kelkel. I was wondering if you could give me on your opinion on my diet. My concern for fitness and bodybuilding has taken a backseat to my concern for overall well being and health lately. I've been cheating over the last few weeks out of apathy and feeling somewhat helpless because I wasn't able to burn much fat or gain muscle with such low T. Although it is due to the clomid, does the increase in T that I currently have translate to the gym? Or is it so artificial that it's more of just a number?

I was thinking I would begin focusing on my diet again - going more paleo with a high protein/vegetable intake and strategic carb intake for exercise. Is that what you would do? Even my bad days are pretty clean but I think with my situation for any real progress I will have to be strict as hell.

Also, anyone else who may have similar experience with a post cycle crash or experience with clomid feel free to jump in on the thread.

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## kelkel

Clomid caused your body to increase it's natural production of testosterone . That said, even if it were injected T it's the same thing. Endogenous and exogenous Testosterone are exactly the same thing. No difference at all between the two. So, increasing your T can help but it's no panacea. It needs to be in conjunction with proper nutrition and training. Everything works better when hormone levels are optimized so yes, it translates to the gym if you want it to. It won't do it on it's own.

When it comes to diet guidance I'm really not the guy to talk to. I've never counted a calorie in my life and usually have no clue what most of the popular diets are. Hit up the vets in the Nutrition Forum and they will gladly help. Basically free Nutritionists willing to help.

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## mavsman41

Lol not a calorie counter either. Glad to know I can utilize the testosterone to lean out though. I guess because it was coming from a pill I thought it wasn't quite the same. T is t I guess.

I'll repost my next bloodwork in 2 wks which will be at week 6 of clomid. Hoping for another jump in t/ free t.

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## vrocketv

Im going through almost the same thing accept my Free T levels are almost NON-EXISTENT (and no prior AAS use). 


I would post a link.. .but apparently this forum doesn't let me do that yet.. If you search for "My Quest Toward TRT - Young Adult Male" or posts from my username, you can find it. 

I can let you know what my doc says but basically, from taking 100mg/day of Clomid, my total T went up from ~300s to ~high 600s, but my Free T did nothing. 

I dont know what else to do but convince the doc to prescribe TRT... :/

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## mavsman41

Yeah that's unfortunate man I'm sorry. I'm hoping to avoid trt until my 30s. But whatever it takes to get the energy and normalcy back.

Did you always have this problem or is this a late onset issue? I probably never had freak genetics, hormonally speaking. But before my recent prohormone use I felt and looked great... so I'm cautiously optimistic my body will return to homeostasis. We will see.

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## mavsman41

What were your estrogen and shbg numbers? Have you worked with another doctor? Urologists are the way to go in my experience

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## jimmyinkedup

Im wondering what kind of jump the 2 added week of clomid therapy will cause, if any, or if you have peaked.

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## mavsman41

Yeah exactly. That's what I will be looking to see. My energy is actually up and I can say I have noticed a difference in my body over the last week so I'm anxious to see if I can go up even higher. Nevertheless, I'm aware my levels will decrease after the clomid.

However I'm hoping I'm suffering from a failed pct rather than permanent hypogonadism. Time will tell.

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## Low Testosterone

Just food for thought after reading the initial post:

1. It can take a full year or more to recover from steroid use , even with a PCT. The number of men I keep hearing talk about PCT, honestly the term is starting to annoy me a little bit. I'm a bit of a libertarian in my thinking, if people want to use steroids for non-medical purposes that's none of my business. But this idea that PCT's are lifesavers it basically nothing more than a bunch of grown men lying to themselves. We believe what we want to believe. I'm not saying PCT doesn't work, I'm saying it often doesn't and far more often doesn't work as well as people tend to think. 

2. You may or may not recover. It does look like your levels are inching up. 

3. Having facial hair or not really isn't an indication of low testosterone . What if you had never had a beard in your life, does that mean you have low testosterone ? And plenty of men come in every day with single to double digit readings with full beards. 

4. If you do end up having permeant low testosterone, don't freak out, you can easily still have kids. 

5. I haven't read everyones reply, but Clomid may or may not be all you need. Personally I prefer restarts of HCG and Clomid. Regardless, it's a crap shoot. 

6. How do you know the Nolvadex was fake? You can't know this unless you tested it. And this kind of gets back to what I said in point number one. Time and time again, guy runs cycle, guy does PCT, guy has blood done 2wks after PCT or even 3 months after PCT, things look OK and he says "I'm a genius!" Well, you can only say that after a year of no gear and then check the levels. 

7. Don't be freaked out by TRT. If you don't end up needing, hey that's great. But there are a million worse things to have to deal with and TRT is pretty damn simple.

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## mavsman41

LowT I think you're assessment is pretty accurate. There is never a guarantee pct will help.

And I agree it can take a while to recover. Coming off an test cycle in the past it took a while to feel normal again. I've just never experienced this kind of dramatic crash (and obviously dissapointing bloodwork). 

Good news is: my numbers were slowly rising on their own. My levels have almost doubled with the clomid at a low dose and in less than a month. Maybe tmi but I'm getting morning wood for the first time since this issue arose about eight months ago. Balls are also slightly more full? Didn't have small boys but they are definitely increasing in size... And even hurt from time to time. This could signal testicular hypertrophy back to my normal state.

I'll try and keep an optimistic mindset and relax a bit but having everybody's input is awesome and I appreciate it guys.

LowT, by having children do you mean that any damage to sperm production by trt is reversible through hcg and a serm?

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## mavsman41

Lowtestosterone.... If I do go the trt route, and I won't decide on this for some time, would you give pellets a try or just go straight for pins?

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## vrocketv

> Yeah that's unfortunate man I'm sorry. I'm hoping to avoid trt until my 30s. But whatever it takes to get the energy and normalcy back.
> 
> Did you always have this problem or is this a late onset issue? I probably never had freak genetics, hormonally speaking. But before my recent prohormone use I felt and looked great... so I'm cautiously optimistic my body will return to homeostasis. We will see.



Ya.. I don't know what else to do man. I agree with you though...whatever it takes. Met with the doctor and he basically said: " there is nothing wrong with you. your total went up with the Clomid and although free testosterone stayed the same, the lab most likely just mis-tested that part. Lets wait two months and see what happens" 

Im not going to let some doctor tell ME that everything is good when it's not. Especially when confirming blood tests are staring him in the face. 

I am not sure if I have always had this problem, but I can tell you that over the last year or two I have been feeling worse and worse, which is why i decided to test my blood in the first place.

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## mavsman41

Brotha find a new doc. I'm
On my third. I was told I needed to seek psychiatric help to start an ssri because I "am well developed and look fine". Many doctors will tell you that because you are within "range"(including the elderly) you are good to go. I would look into a urologist who specializes in reproductive health. I was able to locate a guy who is pretty understanding and very well versed in male issues. He's the first doc I've met with that actually recognized I wasn't within range FOR MY AGE.

Hold tight and find another doc man. Endos are retarded btw regarding our issue - they treat diabetes on a day to day basis and testosterone for the elderly not young guys like us.

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## Low Testosterone

> Lowtestosterone.... If I do go the trt route, and I won't decide on this for some time, would you give pellets a try or just go straight for pins?


I don't like pellets because to adjust anything you have to go digging back in there.

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## lovbyts

> Just food for thought after reading the initial post:
> 
> 1. It can take a full year or more to recover from steroid use , even with a PCT. The number of men I keep hearing talk about PCT, honestly the term is starting to annoy me a little bit. I'm a bit of a libertarian in my thinking, if people want to use steroids for non-medical purposes that's none of my business. But this idea that PCT's are lifesavers it basically nothing more than a bunch of grown men lying to themselves. We believe what we want to believe. I'm not saying PCT doesn't work, I'm saying it often doesn't and far more often doesn't work as well as people tend to think. 
> 
> 2. You may or may not recover. It does look like your levels are inching up. 
> 
> 3. Having facial hair or not really isn't an indication of low testosterone . What if you had never had a beard in your life, does that mean you have low testosterone ? And plenty of men come in every day with single to double digit readings with full beards. 
> 
> 4. If you do end up having permeant low testosterone, don't freak out, you can easily still have kids. 
> ...


I would love to copy/paste this to some of the newbies. I keep telling these kids that just because they arent showing any negative symptoms right after a cycle or their buddies that they really dont know until a year or two down the road with no aas use and sometimes even longer.

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## mavsman41

^ agreed. I'm sure I come off as an uneducated jackass from the information I've given. Experimenting with hormones is a huge mistake and even with professionals, it is an inexact science. I wish there was more protection in place for young guys going to the local supp shop. Whereas you would think the local gnc ect would be looking out for you're well being, there is a total disregard for health. I know you shouldn't trust some dope collecting an hourly paycheck at the retail store down the street, but at a young age you tend to trust others too much. They will push the get big quick mentality every day. I take full responsibility for my mistakes but I wish there was someone who would have directed me to proper nutrition and education before exposing me to prohormones. Luckily I didn't walk out with a baby dick haha!

But I wish I knew then what I knew now.

Btw guys - week 4 on clomid 25/Ed and I'm horny as hell again. I know this is unusual so I'm taking this as a great sign.

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## vrocketv

Ever consider HCG only treatment? My doc says that since I responded somewhat to the Clomid, I should try HCG only before going full force into TRT.

Thoughts?

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## mavsman41

Yes I'm going to be doing a few more weeks with clomid. Then after some time and new bloodwork I will consider a short term lower dose hcg cycle with clomid for a month and low dose nolva for 6 wks.

Then wait again. And if I can't stabile around 500-700 Tt and decent free t, I'll go trt.

Time can be my best friend because I have a case where this was mostly brought on by drug abuse (prohormones, aas)

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## mavsman41

Getting blood drawn tomorrow morning and will post lab results when they come in.

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## kelkel

> Yes I'm going to be doing a few more weeks with clomid. Then after some time and new bloodwork I will consider a short term lower dose hcg cycle with clomid for a month and low dose nolva for 6 wks.


What's your point with the above concoction?

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## mavsman41

Lol kelkel it's just something I've read. I've read that if clomid did not get me going, I probably should have used hcg and using it with nolva or clomid could help me get going.

Just want to try anything I can before committing to trt.

Still waiting on most recent bloodwork.

Kelkel I hope you won't think I'm stupid for asking but would it be completely idiotic to run some test prop for six weeks and then come off with a great hcg nolva and clomid pct and see if that does it? 

I know exogenous test will shut me down but I'm hitting it hard in the gym with very little results and my diet is nearly flawless. I'm lethargic and somewhat depressed. I sound like a ***** I'm sure but I'm tired of feeling like ass and I can't imagine a short test cycle with a great pct could make me any worse off. Am I totally off base with that thinking?

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## kelkel

Well know that clomid is stimulatory to your LH level and HCG is suppressive. This is why they are not run simultaneously. I did not re-read the thread and refresh myself but you can google the Power PCT Protocol by Scally.

You need to make up your mind. Do you want to restart or run a cycle? I can't help you there as it's a personal decision. I can't say it will make you worse off either as when on cycle your levels will be supraphysiological so you'll definitely feel better, in most cases anyway. That said, your BW will be in any day now so lets see how that looks before you make a decision........imho.

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## Stosh_112

Test Numbers are a base... Its how u feel mentally and physically which matters most. Some people feel fine at 400 tot test, and some dont. Before you decide to go TRT consider u current state of well being. Consider do u want to deal with dosing the rest of ur life??? U stated ur hypogonadism has bounced back so HCG isnt needed. after you last clomid run let a few month pass and see how feel. With or without numbers. Then decide about TRT.

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## mavsman41

Thanks for the responses guys.

I'll try to be more patient. I do not want to be on anything permanently but I'm also losing patience with my situation. I'll continue to take a long term systematic approach and see what the bw says Monday.

Kelkel I do want to restart and that is my focus but I guess what I'm asking is: assuming my levels are significantly lower(and they should be) upon cessation of clomid, would a test cycle and proper pct do any harm. Worst case scenario im back at my poor t levels for a 24 year old. I've never used hcg before so I was thinking if I ran an actual hcg/serm pct after a short test cycle I could at least return to the 300-400 level.

I'm 24, I broke up with my girlfriend a few months back(she was an 8 and I'm picky) and I'm single in a big city. As much as I want to "restart" im not cool with lethargy, a mediocre body comp at best, and low t no matter what! I need energy. I'm in the prime of my life and I can't be depending on caffeine to get me through 4 o'clock. I'm going to be starting a job for a Fortune 500 company and I need to get my shit together and figure it out. 

I'll post bw Monday. For anyone who has this similar situation I'm sure you get me. I'll be positive and like I said I'll focus on patience.

Thanks for the input guys.

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## kelkel

Well, know that it can take many months for your hpta to return to normal. It's not always just a handful of weeks. Being patient with this may benefit you, then again it may be all for naught. It's a crap shoot really. That said, and to answer your question I don't think a cycle would harm you further. Just run your hcg ON cycle, not off.

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## mavsman41

Hey guys the blood work came in.

Total t: 605
Free t: 12
Estradiol: 58

Looks like total went up about 70. Free is slightly up. Est up about 10 pts.

The doctor I initially visited wants me to continue clomid 25/Ed for another 3 months while my newest doc wants me to administer 25mg/eod for 2-3 weeks and then begin tapering off that, lowering to 3 times a week, 2, then 1.

Any insight into what these docs might be thinking? Looks like I've kind of plateaued at free t of 11-12. Would you suggest I begin the eod regimen or continue to take 25 (half a tab) every night? My doc cannot see me for another three weeks and I have a blood work order I will use in two weeks that will be on a different scale.


Thanks for any input

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## mavsman41

Anybody still following?

I am feeling a bit better, but still holding fat around my waist and hips, little on chest. Typical lower end t issues. Meanwhile I'm running 2 miles in 12 min, bp at 225x13 so strength and endurance are ok. Just really frustrating working my ass off in the gym and still holding fat. Diet consisting of eggs, avocado, fruit, chicken, lean steak, turkey and rice, lots of asparagus/mushroom/peppers/broccoli/sweet potato. 

Erections are somewhat shitty and not where they once were. I'm also now seeing my ex girlfriend again and I want to lean out and perform like I used to for her... I've obtained 3 bottles of t prop and I may begin a 6-10 wk cycle and come off with the docs assistance. I have 2 months of clomid on hand, about two weeks of nolva, and an otc pct product. I would request hcg as well.

Today is Saturday and my next apt has been moved up to this upcoming Monday so I will not make any rushed decisions. But should I run this idea of a short cycle by my doc? It's summer and I don't want to carry this fat around while only weighing 205-210. It's also very important to me that I don't **** this up with my girlfriend. She is not dating me for sex purely but I'm sure she would prefer a dick that works. Should I just be honest with the doc or will I scare him away? In the big picture I just want my natty levels stable and around 500 and a free of 12-15 but I can't afford to have 600 Tt with free 11 while still taking clomid. I do not plan on using aas long term but right now I'd rather get on, feel better and ensure a quality sex life, then come off with the right pct and see where I am and then evaluate trt possibilities then.

Am I being illogical? Once again any input is appreciated. This has been a grueling journey and I've come pretty far... But still not where I need to be. Thanks guys

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## lovbyts

Yes I'm sure others are still reading/following

No dont talk to your doctor about a cycle unless you want it in your records and could effect insurance in the future among other things.

A cycle is not advisable until you get a better grip on your HRT and everything is working and feeling like it should. Weve all been there and want to do a cycle right away but it's best to wait. Get your body fat down more or you have a higher risk of getting gyno along with other sides.

Also, it's best to know your doctor isnt going to ask for a surprise blood work mid cycle and you either test VERY high or have to make excuses. 

Running a cycle now will only complicate things a lot more than they are not and wont fix anything.

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## bigdil511

> Yes I'm sure others are still reading/following No dont talk to your doctor about a cycle unless you want it in your records and could effect insurance in the future among other things. A cycle is not advisable until you get a better grip on your HRT and everything is working and feeling like it should. Weve all been there and want to do a cycle right away but it's best to wait. Get your body fat down more or you have a higher risk of getting gyno along with other sides. Also, it's best to know your doctor isnt going to ask for a surprise blood work mid cycle and you either test VERY high or have to make excuses. Running a cycle now will only complicate things a lot more than they are not and wont fix anything.


What would you even say if you started testing off the charts?

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## lovbyts

After about 1yr doctors usually only test once very six months so you can plan around that and some (like mine) only test once a year now.

I would not risk being tested on or close to cycle because he can drop you and refuse service and your insurance could screw you later. Ive read a few post here where doctors refused HRT after a high test.

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## austino

Check out my post about clomid based HRT. You can find it by clicking my handle, I am a low poster and cannot post links yet. Not preaching that it is "the way" but it worked for me. I am also in Texas too! 

My reasoning is a little different but still the same idea, secondary hypogonadism and not primary.

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## austino

> Hey guys the blood work came in.
> 
> Total t: 605
> Free t: 12
> Estradiol: 58
> 
> Looks like total went up about 70. Free is slightly up. Est up about 10 pts.
> 
> The doctor I initially visited wants me to continue clomid 25/Ed for another 3 months while my newest doc wants me to administer 25mg/eod for 2-3 weeks and then begin tapering off that, lowering to 3 times a week, 2, then 1.
> ...


From what I gathered from mine, the Clomid will bump your LH and FSH and you will produce more Test but also more Est. My doc is having me do 50mg/eod with the reasoning that my body will react to it better if it isnt daily. I have no idea if that is bro science or not but I went with it and the results are good. Just continue watching your est if that climbs up more you may start having some emotional mornings like I did.

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## mavsman41

I really appreciate all the replies.

I actually decided to run things by my doctor AFTER we went over what his thoughts were on my progress. He said that he was happy with my progress and believes I should move to 25mg mwf which I already have, then move to Monday Thursday. In three or four stop completely and blood work in a month after cessation. He also added that I should have the ability to shed my waistline fat when I quit the clomid due to then estradiol issues we have all spoken of.

I said, " please do not view me as a juicehead and I hope you will not think I'm completely foolish for asking but, I obtained prop and want to take it for blah blah...."

He said "I don't think that's unreasonable and after what you've been through I get it. I usually prescribe enanthate when we go that route but in your case I would advise against it. You are making great progress. I could give you hcg and aid you in coming off properly but I advise you take caution and practice patience"... Then gave me free cialis for improved erections!

I will continue to be patient and await post clomid numbers. Looks like I have a really understanding and knowledgeable doc. He was very comforting and this is a complete 180 from other experiences I've had with docs.

1 week mwf 25mg, one week Monday Thursday 25 mg. retest in 2-4 weeks after. That's the plan. Damn it sucks being patient but my mind is in such a better place. Worth it if my levels somehow stick/ improve.

Anybody with similar issues...Keep following I'll update this week and next about how I feel and how things go with the sex drive.

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## mavsman41

Hey austino... did you see a urologist or an endo? Whats your gameplan for the clomid long term? Do you plan on tapering and coming off to see what happens to your natural equilibrium?

My goal is to come off and stabilize at a more reasonable number than where I began. May not be feasible, but that's the goal. I'm working my way towards being off and retesting a month after my last tab. 

Also, didn't see what your dosage was?

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## MMAasrealasitgets

really interesting read here.

I too had issues with low T and went onto TRT (details on another thread) and now off TRT since late 2013 and still not back to normal. Nuts good, morning horn present, lowish labido and T levels low alongside LH / FSH (the references you use differ from mine so not comparable but my BW has been done in n/mol.

I found TRT was OK (on for 2-3 years I think) but my levels never got out of the high teens (n/mol) and that was on Test Under every 7-8 weeks as a depot inj.

I am now also looking to improve my T levels and thinking a clomid PCT even after this period of time may help but just looking at what levels would be needed to help the restart but of course recognise the fact they may never get me back to where I felt I was.

I totally hear the OP on the Drs just saying ' give it time - go cold turkey' - I have waited too long under the Endo (2nd one) and wasted time so now I have also turned to this forum for real opinion and real help.

keep us posted on progress and BW (I will find a compatibility prog to change the ref range so I can compare with my own).

What mg of Clomid did you take and how long for?

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## mavsman41

Well I'm glad this thread could be of help potentially. I started taking 25 mg (half a tab) of clomid in mid/late February of this year. I used a pill cutter to accurately slice them in 1/2 and took each half tab with something to eat (protein shake, almonds, quest bar) an hour or so before bed as things began to wind down. I was hoping this could increase the absorption. As I know a serm can be toxic, I increased my water intake and become more cognizant of my alcohol use but still drank.

Fairly quickly I noticed a slight improvement in erections but nothing crazy. Felt lethargic and depressed like before. After 45-60 days my energy was noticeably improved and I no longer had the "brain fog" that was so pervasive before. I could actually focus and my ability to focus has actually continually increased. While I didn't notice anything in my physique, I did have a friend say "dude you look so much more solid". I think the clomid helped me shed some Bf and water.

Many people have reported that they feel like a beech on clomid because along with the increase in testosterone comes a higher estriadol. I had a few occasions of excessive emotion but I never cried, broke down ect. I think that's probably overblown or just varies from person to person. The estriadol increase has however caused me to hold fat around the waist/hips and that pisses me off. No acne. No "tracers" or anything negative with my eyesight.

All in all, it's been ok and has given me some hope. Give it a shot. 

Oh and I'm now taking 25 mg/mwf for a few weeks and then will take it 2x/wk for a few then stop entirely.

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## mavsman41

And to anyone who is following and is just beginning their journey into solving a testosterone issue.... my advice is to visit with a urologist rather than an endo. 9/10 endos will be focusing on diabetes patients and will write you off/ tell you you look fine/ tell you to get on an ssri. Google a urologist knowledgable in reproductive assistance (i.e. helping couples conceive). These urologists will have much more experience in what we are dealing with because they get many trt patients who want to have children, cannot, and then they help them come off with hcg , nolva, clomid and restore testosterone/fertility. They are simply more experienced with these issues in particular. I was actually extremely impressed my doctor prescribes enanthate because I've only heard of docs using depot/undecoanate and these are less than ideal for my situation at least.

I'd be happy to answer more questions too.

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## MMAasrealasitgets

> And to anyone who is following and is just beginning their journey into solving a testosterone issue.... my advice is to visit with a urologist rather than an endo. 9/10 endos will be focusing on diabetes patients and will write you off/ tell you you look fine/ tell you to get on an ssri. Google a urologist knowledgable in reproductive assistance (i.e. helping couples conceive). These urologists will have much more experience in what we are dealing with because they get many trt patients who want to have children, cannot, and then they help them come off with hcg , nolva, clomid and restore testosterone/fertility. They are simply more experienced with these issues in particular. I was actually extremely impressed my doctor prescribes enanthate because I've only heard of docs using depot/undecoanate and these are less than ideal for my situation at least.
> 
> I'd be happy to answer more questions too.


cheers man, I have seen an Uro and an Endo and agree in general with what you say but the main killer is that they say your in range 8-40 and I am 8-9 etc etc. Considering their demographic it appears they dont wish to help only 'time will be the helper' and thats crap in most cases!

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## bigdil511

If you are within range your endo or urologist won't help you from my experience. I had to find trt specialist before anyone would even admit I have a problem with low t.

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## austino

> Hey austino... did you see a urologist or an endo? Whats your gameplan for the clomid long term? Do you plan on tapering and coming off to see what happens to your natural equilibrium?
> 
> My goal is to come off and stabilize at a more reasonable number than where I began. May not be feasible, but that's the goal. I'm working my way towards being off and retesting a month after my last tab. 
> 
> Also, didn't see what your dosage was?


I have seen them all. Endo, Urologist, hormone therapy specialist (word was he was liberal with his prescriptions.... not the case ill explain more)

Endo result - I was told I dont have a problem and that I shouldnt worry about a thing. Despite the symptoms, mood, foggy brain, etc etc. he said that I should focus on a better diet without knowing what my diet was or what I did for exercise. I wrote him off pretty quickly not because he was stupid, but just because he had no interest. 

Hormone specialist - self proclaimed specialist at best. His default answer is throw a lot of Test at you and move on. Now I am sure some here would love that but I, like you, still want to have kids so for now I want to keep myself fertile. For him, there was no other option except Test. 

Urologist - She has been my rock star doc through all of this. We both have the outlook that this is all one big experiment to improve the quality of life. She listens to everything and makes note of improvements or digressions. We seek alternative methods to aid the medication or reduce the need. We started with monthly visits and blood work every 4 weeks. Now we are at every 3 months but we still email each other during that time for updates and questions. Options and choices are presented (clomid vs test vs straight hcg etc etc) and we weigh out the pros and cons while still focusing on feel and on the numbers. My test was near 900 this past round with free T at 25'ish. These are a little high but she knows how much I am at the gym and simply put is okay with it knowing that it will help my goals as well. 

I 100% agree with the comments above, go to a Urologist, not an Endo or your local doc that prescribes you extra strength aleve. They will be more interested in making you whole again vs just dumping a diagnosis on you and script. 

Long term goals - I will cycle off at some point this year. 30 day cycle down, 2-4 weeks off, blood work and review. As I mentioned, this is a controlled experiment so we will see what happens next. I hope that this restarts my system but I never made it crash due to any steroid use or other hormone tampering. My expectations are low with my empty sella configuration of my pituitary gland but regardless, this is working. 

My latest bw
Estradiol 38
PSA .6
TSH 2.7 (.5 - 4.7)
Free T4 1.14
Test 996 (300 - 1080)
Free Test 24.9 (4.8 - 25.7)
Sex horm 31 (16.5 - 55.9)
WBC 5.8
RBC 5.65

I have been researching and Clomid is considered off label (not intended originally for this use) and there is a company call Repros that is waiting for FDA approval of a clomid offshoot designed specifically for secondary hypothyroidism call Androxal. Its not available but once it is, I intend on trying it. 

I also at some point will do 6 months on Test only (w/ hcg) to see if there is a difference too but same story, will slowly come off, go without anything for a month or to base line, then ramp up on the new protocol.

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## mavsman41

Dude how you feeling? I know you're on the clomid but your numbers look absolutely ideal. Even if you come down by 30-40% that's not bad. I know numbers are simply reference points but those are great!! Highest I've hit is 660 tt and 14 free t this last week. 

If it makes you feel any better I think you're looking golden at this point! Keep us updated with bw as you come off!

As for me, I'm actually meeting my urologist tomorrow to discuss a few months of test with hcg because I can't deal with my symptoms right now as I start my new job and begin a relationship. My numbers improved and that's all great but they still aren't optimal for my age and with a docs supervision im sure this cycle won't bring any further harm. I need the energy, libido, fat loss ect. Maybe a myopic mindset but I can't help it. It's been a rough ride. The good thing is this doc understands.

Finding a legit uro is such a relief. He actually cares.

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## mavsman41

I'll continue to post and throw up my gameplan for my test/hcg /arimidex cycle and let you all know blood work after. I'm really excited about feeling good again even if it is exogenous. I think the hcg will help me come off successfully, avoid a crash, and then we will be able to evaluate where my real levels are once again.

Idea is to administer hcg 2-3 times a wk (dose undetermined) and .5 arimidex eod. Goal is to keep balls firing, estrogen down at a manageable level, cut fat which helps with my testosterone and put on a little muscle for my lady  :Wink: . 

To anybody who is following: I think he will prescribe enanthate . That's fine, but bloat and water retention scare me and that's why I obtained prop. Can I avoid the water with arimidex?

Also, could I use prop alongside the enanthate to get a kick while the enanthate becomes active? I know it will be a few wks until I feel it. The goal is to lean out, obtain energy I've been missing for a year, improve my sec drive, and put on a few lb of quality muscle. Not a bulk cycle.. Looking for quality of life and some fat loss.

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## mavsman41

Pct:
Clomid: 50/25/25/25/25eod/25eod
Nolva: 20/20/10
Otc pct product

Idea would be to run the clomid like I have in previous months. Seems successful but it does take time.

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## MMAasrealasitgets

why the short period of Nolva, whats the thinking behind that?

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## mavsman41

Well, here is the update guys. A good six years have passed, so I apologize for not following up.

After discontinuing the clomid, my system eventually tanked back to 300-400. Luckily, I've been working with a rockstar doc in Dallas and my life has changed for the better. How? TRT.

My TRT protocol is as follows:

M/W/F: Cypionate .2 ml (40mg), .5 arimadex, .25 ml hcg (120 mg cypionate, 750 mg hcg, 1.5 adex)

When I first started TRT, I was right in the sweet spot with 100 mg/week. This was split into two shots on Monday's and Thursdays. We started off with no aromatase inhibitor and utilized 1,000 units of hcg/week.

Over time I've required a bit more to achieve the same T levels. I feel the best when my Total T is around 800 - 1,000 and my estradiol sits around 30-35. This requires the use of .6 ml cypionate/week (120 mg). I've dialed back the hcg just a bit, and I am currently trying to reduce my AI dosing by injecting more frequently (3 times vs 2 times). I am sensitive to E2 spikes, so I am managing this more than most and hcg is difficult on the estradiol.

My SHBG is in the middle of the pack, and when my total T gets about 800 or so, my "free" T is top of the range. However, the most recent literature does put into question the validity of "Free T". Kind of interesting......

Initially I had intense anxiety about committing to exogenous hormones for good, but I trust my doctor, I've educated myself for years now, and I FINALLY FEEL LIKE A DAMN HUMAN.

I have my life back.

When I sleep, I actually feel recovered and refreshed. When I lift, I actually see gains again. When I keep my diet and macros in check, I lose body fat. My focus is there when my discipline is there. I am more patient. I am way more confident.

I still deal with depression, but I am more capable of managing it and my anxiety is under control. 

I wish I had done this in college. I missed so much because I was exhausted every day. If you truly have a medical condition, I highly rec that you seek an expert, and pursue TRT. It is therapeutic and has changed my life for the better.

Hope this update is of use. Unfortunately I don't have my records in a succinct panel that I can upload - I had to extract all my records one by one from the patient portal at my doctor's office, but I am more than happy to answer questions if you have them.

I hope this is helpful to someone who is dealing with a similar battle. I was in a very dark place when I started this thread but have made it to the other side. You can too.

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