# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  The U.N. Global Gun Ban Treaty

## TITANIUM

This is like a Trojan horse that I have been studying for years.It seems that with this administration, it has the best chance of being signed in agreement with the UN. With the "blue dogs" in power in the House now, it could be filibustered, and plow it's way through. We are the last continent that has not played the game with UN on this subject. Thoughts??? 






The U.N. Global Gun Ban Treaty - The Ugly Truth About Americas Friends and How They Fund the Global Ban


By Wayne LaPierre



This past year marked the 60th anniversary of the end of WWIIa war in which liberation and freedom for dozens of nations was bought with American blood.

I wouldnt be surprised if a member of your family fought in that war. And theres no doubt that someone you know had a close relative who was killed in that warone of the 400,000 Americans who made the ultimate sacrifice to win freedom for the world.

Never before, and never since have the people of one nation paid such a dear price to win freedom for others.

Thats why its so hard for me to believe that, right now dozens of the nations we helped liberate are working together, hand-in-hand with dictatorships and terrorist statesto snuff out freedom around the globe and dismantle the Bill of Rights here in America.

Im talking about the mounting effort by more than 100 members of the United Nations to impose a worldwide ban on civilian ownership of firearms. Its a plan that includes the destruction of the Second Amendment and a ban on YOUR guns.

This summer, at U.N. headquarters in New York Cityright here on American soilthese nations along with more than 500 gun-ban groups worldwide will hold an international conference to draft a global Treaty on Small Arms.

And if this treaty were ratified in the United States, it would be binding on you and other citizens with the full force of American lawoutlawing your guns, extinguishing your hunting, prohibiting your shootings sports, ending your right to self-defense, and destroying our Second Amendment rights forever.

Aiding and abetting the global gun ban treaty movement are six supposedly free countries: The U.K., Sweden, The Netherlands, France, Norway, and Belgium.

Along with globalist billionaire George Soroswho spent over $26 million of his personal fortune to try to elect gun-ban Senator John Kerry to the White House last yearthese six countries alone have already bankrolled the U.N. gun-ban campaign to the tune of tens of millions of dollars with still more to come.

Today, before they spend another $100 million or $10 million or even one more dollar to attack and try to destroy your Second Amendment rights, I want to hear from you.

I want them to hear from gun owners who are the sons and daughters, and grandsons and granddaughters, of those who heeded Great Britains plea for guns in 1940and sent their family heirlooms for the defense of that nation.

I want them to hear from the sons and daughters, and grandsons and granddaughters, of those who lie buried in American war cemeteries in England, France, The Netherlands and Belgium and across Europe.

I want them to hear from the sons and daughters, and grandsons and granddaughters, of those who were mercilessly attacked at Pearl Harbor, yet who gave generously after the war to help rebuild Japan.

Lets remind these nations that they have America to thank for their freedoms. Lets demand that they keep their hands off our Bill of Rights. And lets remind them that when they support a U.N. backed effort to destroy the right of self-defense for every man and woman on earth, theyre on the wrong side of freedom and the wrong side of history.

The vast majority of 100 nations backing this U.N. gun ban scheme dont allow their citizens the individual freedoms that are guaranteed to you and me under our unique Bill of Rights.

Libya and Cuba are seated on the U.N. Human Rights Commission, and even Sudanthe only country that still allows slaveryis in charge of this Commission. Yet they arrogantly claim that your freedoms are to blame for the problems of the world!!!

They ignore genocides committed by their own membersLike in Rwanda, where nearly one million people were killed not by guns, but with machetes. Yet somehow they claim that your Second Amendment rights are making the world a more dangerous place.

They ignored the slaughter by Pol Pot in Cambodiaalso a U.N. memberAnd theyve ignored one massacre after another by hostile governments against people who dont have a right to own guns and therefore cant defend themselves.

What these countries and the U.N. will never acknowledge is that the vast majority of firearm atrocities around the world arent committed by the individual criminalsthe vast majority of wanton killings around the globe are committed by governmentsthe members of the United Nations themselves.

These are the same governments that now want to extinguish the right of self-defense in America and in every nation around the worldso that only governments will have guns.

The U.N. counts among its members in good standing nearly fifty dictatorship and six state sponsors of terrorism.

Combined, these members in good standing of the U.N. have murdered more than 100 million of their own citizens in the past centurymore than four times as many of their own people who have died in wars.

So its no wonder that they have such a deep-seated hatred of the United States of America where our freedoms have been guaranteed for over 200 years by the Bill of Rights and the Second Amendment.

To learn how you can fight the U.N.s global gun ban, get Wayne LaPierres new book The Global War on Your Guns. 

Make no mistake. This fight is about more than firearms ownership. This is a fight for our national sovereignty, our individual freedoms and the future of our nation.

Just as a handful of patriots fired the shot heard round the world at Concord Bridge, its up to you and me and the handful of patriots who are proud to be gun owners and proud to tell the world that our nation will not be bullied by the dictators and despots of the U.N.

In no other nation on earth do citizens like you and me enjoy all of the freedoms that are guaranteed to us in the Bill of Rights. 

If you and I dont lead this battle today, no one will. 

Thank you. 


Best

T

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## RuhlFreak55

This will never pass....that's THE line...no political figure can cross that...it would mean immediate civil war. What worries me is they have a tendency to gradually **** us instead of these abrupt things talked about here. A little freedom gone there...a little freedom gone here...and then we're done.

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## BgMc31

There you go again, T, trying to incite fear by saying "this administration". Please show me one statement, bill, or anything to that effect that shows Obama wants to ban guns anywhere...

There is a huge difference between gun control and outlawing all guns. Now I know the paranoids out there will say, that gun control is the first step in the outlawing of all guns. But let's face it, there has always been a level of gun control in this country. This president wouldn't think about outlawing guns. Hell he can't even get a health care proposal 'forced' through, even though the vast majority of Americans want it. Do you honestly believe he could force through outlawing all gun ownership...please.....

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## Mooseman33

> There you go again, T, trying to incite fear by saying "this administration". Please show me one statement, bill, or anything to that effect that shows Obama wants to ban guns anywhere...
> 
> There is a huge difference between gun control and outlawing all guns. Now I know the paranoids out there will say, that gun control is the first step in the outlawing of all guns. But let's face it, there has always been a level of gun control in this country. This president wouldn't think about outlawing guns. *Hell he can't even get a health care proposal 'forced' through, even though the vast majority of Americans want it*. Do you honestly believe he could force through outlawing all gun ownership...please.....


the vast majority of people who dont pay a dime of income taxes want it to pass. anyone with common sense knows that the bill being proposed is a huge crock of shit.

and yes Big guy, i no u have common sense and are very intelligent, but u cant tell me a bill that does not block illegals from getting insurance and offers abortion coverage is anything but acceptable.

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## Flagg

Interesting read, but I hate how these things go into "This Administration", as if American politics and law started to become corrupt back in January 2009. And while the UN is not without corruption itself, I find it absurd that a lot of you think Europe has become the USSR. 

I found this part of the article "laced" with provocative propaganda:

_Aiding and abetting the global gun ban treaty movement are six supposedly free countries: The U.K., Sweden, The Netherlands, France, Norway, and Belgium._

Sweden is ranked the second happiest place in the world to live. Not bad for a "socialist" country as that article implies. Infact out of the top ten happiest countries in the world, 7 are European: http://www.financialjesus.com/how-to...est-countries/

I haven't really got much of an opinion on gun laws in America, but it's a pretty cheap shot to suggest that Universal Health Care will allow for wide spread abortions. Right now, Abortion is NOT illegal, and right now a woman has a fundamental right to abort, whether people find that unethical or not.

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## TexSavant

You really need not sweat this, especially now that the Supreme Court has made the INDIVIDUAL right to bear arms official in the[/B]_District of Columbia v. Heller_ decision. The constitution is in fact superior to any treaty, just as it is to acts of congress, the executive, and the states.


"A question growing out of the discussion above is whether the treaty power is bounded by constitutional limitations. By the supremacy clause, both statutes and treaties are declared . . . to be the supreme law of the land, and no superior efficacy is given to either over the other.As statutes may be held void because they contravene the Constitution, it should follow that treaties may be held void, the Constitution being superior to both. *And indeed the Court has numerous times so stated.* 

http://supreme.justia.com/constituti...aty-power.html

"The treaty is ... a law made by the proper authority, and the courts of justice have no right to annul or disregard any of its provisions, *unless they violate the Constitution of the United States*" - _Doe v. Braden_

"It need hardly be said that a treaty cannot change the Constitution or be held valid if it be in violation of that instrument." - _The Cherokee Tobacco Case_

There is nothing in this language which intimates that treaties do not have to comply with the provisions of the Constitution. Nor is there anything in the debates which accompanied the drafting and ratification of the Constitution which even suggests such a result." _Justice Hugo Black, Reid v. Covert_

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## Mooseman33

> Interesting read, but I hate how these things go into "This Administration", as if American politics and law started to become corrupt back in January 2009. And while the UN is not without corruption itself, I find it absurd that a lot of you think Europe has become the USSR. 
> 
> I found this part of the article "laced" with provocative propaganda:
> 
> _Aiding and abetting the global gun ban treaty movement are six supposedly free countries: The U.K., Sweden, The Netherlands, France, Norway, and Belgium._
> 
> Sweden is ranked the second happiest place in the world to live. Not bad for a "socialist" country as that article implies. Infact out of the top ten happiest countries in the world, 7 are European: http://www.financialjesus.com/how-to...est-countries/
> 
> I haven't really got much of an opinion on gun laws in America, but it's a pretty cheap shot to suggest that Universal Health Care will allow for wide spread abortions. Right now, Abortion is NOT illegal, and right now a woman has a fundamental right to abort, whether people find that unethical or not.



cheap shot...get the fvk out of here man.
yes it is legal, im not trying to stop it from being, however there are no current insurance companies who cover the procedure so why should our govt. force it to be available through the "public option" or thru any other healthcare reform.
if u want an abortion, pay for it like a man/woman should, if u cant afford it then fvking kill urself.
abortion should have no place in a "public option" govt healthcare program.

BOTTOMLINE.

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## TITANIUM

> There you go again, T, trying to incite fear by saying "this administration". Please show me one statement, bill, or anything to that effect that shows Obama wants to ban guns anywhere...
> 
> There is a huge difference between gun control and outlawing all guns. Now I know the paranoids out there will say, that gun control is the first step in the outlawing of all guns. But let's face it, there has always been a level of gun control in this country. This president wouldn't think about outlawing guns. Hell he can't even get a health care proposal 'forced' through, even though the vast majority of Americans want it. Do you honestly believe he could force through outlawing all gun ownership...please.....


I am not trying to instill fear at all, I was asking for "thoughts".

And if this Administration could do it, they would.

And you know they would, so what is the big deal?

Your obviously still pissed about my saying something in another thread about me joking about the "black man" thing.

It was a running joke bro, relax. I apologized for it.

Best

T

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## Flagg

> cheap shot...get the fvk out of here man.
> yes it is legal, im not trying to stop it from being, however there are no current insurance companies who cover the procedure so why should our govt. force it to be available through the "public option" or thru any other healthcare reform.
> if u want an abortion, pay for it like a man/woman should, if u cant afford it then fvking kill urself.
> abortion should have no place in a "public option" govt healthcare program.
> 
> BOTTOMLINE.



Well denying the entire population of America universal health care, just to spite the nose of illegal immigrants seems very petulant. Immigration is a problem, but you cant say what you think the American public can and cant have on the basis of immigrants taking advantage. Illegals are always going to take advantage of the system, no matter where you are in the world or what it is.

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## TITANIUM

> This will never pass....that's THE line...no political figure can cross that...it would mean immediate civil war. What worries me is they have a tendency to gradually **** us instead of these abrupt things talked about here. A little freedom gone there...a little freedom gone here...and then we're done.


Ya, I remember reading George Orwells 1984 in school.

Interesting read for a kid.

Not so far off from the truth, as we know society to be now.

Best

T

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## TITANIUM

> the vast majority of people who dont pay a dime of income taxes want it to pass. anyone with common sense knows that the bill being proposed is a huge crock of shit.
> 
> and yes Big guy, i no u have common sense and are very intelligent, but u cant tell me a bill that does not block illegals from getting insurance and offers abortion coverage is anything but acceptable.


I don't think that the abortion issue should have ever become a political topic at all.

Nobody's business but the parties directly involved.

Still pisses me off just thinking about it.....

Best

T

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## Mooseman33

> Well denying the entire population of America universal health care, just to spite the nose of illegal immigrants seems very petulant. Immigration is a problem, but you cant say what you think the American public can and cant have on the basis of immigrants taking advantage. Illegals are always going to take advantage of the system, no matter where you are in the world or what it is.


the entire population does not want universal healthcare here in Amercia.

No illegals should have the oppurtunity to recieve the "public option" or any other form of healthcare here till they are legal.

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## Mooseman33

> I don't think that the abortion issue should have ever become a political topic at all.
> 
> *Nobody's business but the parties directly involved.*
> Still pisses me off just thinking about it.....
> 
> Best
> 
> T


unless taxpayer money is going to pay for it.
soon as people start having the govt. which means the average taxpayer pay for that proceudre, it becomes everyones business who pays the bill..

if u want it, pay for it urself..

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## TITANIUM

> unless taxpayer money is going to pay for it.
> soon as people start having the govt. which means the average taxpayer pay for that proceudre, it becomes everyones business who pays the bill..
> 
> if u want it, pay for it urself..


Agreed.

Anyone I know that has had this done did it at a clinic and paid cash for it.

But your are right when taxpayers $$$ is being used.

Best

T

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## TITANIUM

> the entire population does not want universal healthcare here in Amercia.
> 
> No illegals should have the oppurtunity to recieve the "public option" or any other form of healthcare here till they are legal.


That is actually the way I feel about anything that illegals should have.

I know I must be an asshole for saying this to some members, but I pay my own way here.

And do not want to see my hard earned money being spent in a fvcked up manner.

But, it is all a convoluted manner.

Is it not?

Best

T

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## Hazard

Don't get me started on this healthcare bill...... Let the fvckin thing pass and watch everyone bitch and moan when they can't get their ACL fixed in a timely manner. Also, lets see what those have to say when their mother or father is pulled off a respirator because a younger patient who has a better chance of survival comes into the hospital.....

If that bill passes..... we're fvcked in every which way! It wont tho..... I think the vast majority of the american public knows the bill is as good as a pile of steaming dog shit.....

~Haz~

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## Hazard

Oh and I almost forgot..... what does it say when your government wants to pass a healthcare bill that they aren't subject too? Thats right..... Our congress will have a seperate healthcare plan! If a member of congress is in the hospital on a respirator and a younger patient comes in with a better survival chance..... guess who's going to get fvcked? YEP! The poor bastard with the least chance of survival..... EXCLUDING THE MEMBER OF CONGRESS!

~Haz~

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## TITANIUM

Well, my social security is gone.

My 401K seems to be intact, for the moment.

I guess I'll have something to look forward to....

A death panel.

Or, going down to pick up my script for a cyanide pill.

Soilent green is own the menu.

Ya, that's a great health care system.

I'm with HAZ on this one.

Best

T

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## BgMc31

I'm not pissed T, you're just making unfounded accusations. You are saying that this administration would do it if the could, where's the proof of that statement? At no time has Obama said he wanted to ban all guns. If he did, please post...

Mooseman, the majority of the US population wants a 'public option' (some polls put support as high as 77%, http://www.surveyusa.com/client/Poll...8-62b9d1ba8693). Both current bills in the house and senate disallow illegals to take advantage of the public option. But we all know, people will figure out how to take advantage of the system. That's human nature.

Somebody said no one has made an issue of the abortion issue, that is simply not true. The house vote was help up by some dems simply on that portion of the bill alone and it was removed. I implore people that before you speak on these topics, to do some research to support your arguments.

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## BgMc31

> Don't get me started on this healthcare bill...... Let the fvckin thing pass and watch everyone bitch and moan when they can't get their ACL fixed in a timely manner. Also, lets see what those have to say when their mother or father is pulled off a respirator because a younger patient who has a better chance of survival comes into the hospital.....
> 
> If that bill passes..... we're fvcked in every which way! It wont tho..... I think the vast majority of the american public knows the bill is as good as a pile of steaming dog shit.....
> 
> ~Haz~


I'm sure there will be delays Hazard. But again that will only be the issue for those who CHOOSE to use the 'public option'. Private insurance will not go away because of a public option. If you believe such, then I have some oceanfront property in Vegas to sell you...

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## TITANIUM

[QUOTE=BgMc31;4955944]I'm not pissed T, you're just making unfounded accusations. You are saying that this administration would do it if the could, where's the proof of that statement? At no time has Obama said he wanted to ban all guns. If he did, please post...

Mooseman, the majority of the US population wants a 'public option' (some polls put support as high as 77%, http://www.surveyusa.com/client/Poll...8-62b9d1ba8693). Both current bills in the house and senate disallow illegals to take advantage of the public option. But we all know, people will figure out how to take advantage of the system. That's human nature.

Somebody said no one has made an issue of the abortion issue, that is simply not true. The house vote was help up by some dems simply on that portion of the bill alone and it was removed. I implore people that before you speak on these topics, to do some research to support your arguments.[/QUOTE









Based on votes taken, political associations, and long standing positions, shows that Barack Obama is a serious threat to Second Amendment liberties. Look instead to what he has said and done during his entire political career. 


FACT: Barack Obama opposes four of the five Supreme Court justices who affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms. He voted against the confirmation of Alito and Roberts and he has stated he would not have appointed Thomas or Scalia.17 

FACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate assault weapons, but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen.18

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.1 

FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.15 

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.3 

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9 

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.2 

FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.4 

FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people 
who use firearms in self-defense.5 

FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.6 

FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case. 

FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.7 

FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and research.8 

FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.9 

FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.10 

FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.11 

FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.12 

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.13 

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.2 

FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.14 

FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.16

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.9 

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.9 

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.9 

1. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 219, July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=1&vote=00219) 

2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in Obama had greater role on liberal survey, Politico, March 31, 2008. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9269.html)

3. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 217, Kennedy amendment July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=1&vote=00217)

4. David Wright, Ursula Fahy and Sunlen Miller, "Obama: `Common Sense Regulation` On Gun Owners` Rights," ABC News` "Political Radar" Blog, http://blogs.abcnews.com, 2/15/08. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalra...common-se.html)

5. Illinois Senate, SB 2165, March 25, 2004, vote 20 and May 25, 2004, vote 3.

6. Fact Check: No News In Obama`s Consistent Record. Obama 08, December 11, 2007. (http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...n_obamas_c.php)

7. Candidates` gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Wednesday, April 2, 2008, and "Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns," Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04. (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_560181.html)

8. 1998 Joyce Foundation Annual Report, p. 7.

9. Obama and Gun Control, The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.com/posts/1203389334.shtml)

10. Illinois Senate, May 5, 2002, SB 1936 Con., vote 26.

11. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2004, SB 2163, vote 18.

12. Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control, Radio Iowa, Sunday, April 22, 2007. (http://learfield.typepad.com/radioio...n_edwards.html)

13. Chicago Tribune blogs, Barack Obama: NIU Shootings call for action, February 15, 2008, (http://blogs.trb.com/news/politics/b..._on_shoot.html) 

14. Barack Obama campaign website: As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment . . . (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ur...aw-enforcement.)

15. Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes (http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...un_Control.htm and http://www.ontheissues.org/IL_2004_Senate_3rd.htm) Oct 21, 2004.

16. Illinois Senate, May 16, 2003, HB 2579, vote 34.

17. United States Senate vote 245, September 29, 2005 and vote 2, January 31, 2006 and Saddleback Forum, August 16, 2008.

18. Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, March 13, 2003. To see the vote tally go to: http://www.nrapvf.org/Media/pdf/sb1195_obama.pdf.



Best

T

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## powerful intelligent

dude, You have have more of a chance outlawing guns than barrack obama.
the lawmaking arm of our goverment will never pass a law like that because they will feel the poltical heat before the executive will. Now if the senate and congress just happens to get a hair in their ass and decide to pass bills and laws outlawing guns then there could be a problem. But they still will have to fight with the supreme court because this is a constititutional isssue. Please worry about issues more pertinent to your existance like the rising cost of living, declining wages and the prison industrial complex. I could go on and on.

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## PistolPete33

What is sad is that they forced their 60 votes on this healthcare bill thru. What a crock of shit... All they need to do to fix the healthcare issues is allow consumers to buy over state lines. This will cause competition and as we all know the supply and demand index and competition brings prices down. What government agency that you know of is run effeciently?

Post office???? Nope, going bankrupt

RMV???? HAHA that's a joke

Social Security???? So, we pay in our entire lives and have nothing when we need it? Yep, no thanks....

MassHealth??? Oh, you mean the system the federal government wants is already in place in Massachusetts??? Great!!!! Oh wait they are already out of money...

But wait, in the bill if you can't afford health care and/or choose not to have it you will be fined??? REALLY???? What's next they are going to make sure we all buy cars? Oh wait they already did that with Cash for Clunkers and that was a major FAILURE!!!!!

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## LeroyB

> This president wouldn't think about outlawing guns. Hell he can't even get a health care proposal 'forced' through, even though the vast majority of Americans want it.


Can you show me proof that most Americans want it. Seems like its pretty hotly contested imo.  :Shrug:

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## LeroyB

http://www.a-human-right.com/
Epic Win on Gun Control!

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## TITANIUM

> dude, You have have more of a chance outlawing guns than barrack obama.
> the lawmaking arm of our goverment will never pass a law like that because they will feel the poltical heat before the executive will. Now if the senate and congress just happens to get a hair in their ass and decide to pass bills and laws outlawing guns then there could be a problem. But they still will have to fight with the supreme court because this is a constititutional isssue. Please worry about issues more pertinent to your existance like the rising cost of living, declining wages and the prison industrial complex. I could go on and on.


I am staying on point.

This is how we do things here in the news.

BgMc asked for facts to prove my thesis on my statement.

And I did.

And I do worry about the countries infrastructure failing. 

This is just one slice of the pie.

If one civil right gets fvcked with, then the rest are sure to follow.

Best

T

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## TITANIUM

> http://www.a-human-right.com/
> Epic Win on Gun Control!


I was in the Marines bro, so all this shit means nothing to me.

To myself, there is no side.

I have a right to defend myself.Period.

If someone else does not want to defend themselves, then that is there choice.

Victims only learn of this through getting raped, mugged, stabbed, ect...

It's called self preservation.

But, those people who do not want to defend themselves and be a statistic, should not be telling others that they do not have the right to defend themselves.

I guarantee that, once a pacifist's wife gets raped in front of his eyes, or daughter is molested, they will and would use a gun in self defense.

It is a natural, instinctive, action to have the will to survive.

I am one of those people.

Best

T

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## Hazard

I'm going to add fuel to the fire here and see what happens LOL

I was listening to Fox radio last week and they mentioned that Obama's administration has increased the national debt by 17% in almost one year. They were saying he needs to not spend anymore of that stimulus money. Also, they said the majority of jobs thats have been created so far are not sustainable jobs.... IE Construction work, substitute/part time teachers......

Just throwing that out there..... I'M NOT THE ONE WHO SAID IT!  :Smilie: 

Ready..... and..... DEBATE!

~Haz~

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## Hazard

> I'm sure there will be delays Hazard. *But again that will only be the issue for those who CHOOSE to use the 'public option'*. Private insurance will not go away because of a public option. If you believe such, then I have some oceanfront property in Vegas to sell you...


Right..... but from what I have heard on TV (yes yes..... we all know how reliable they are) Obama want's no public option. It was to my understanding that thats why people were infuriated...... other than illegals getting insurance that we'll be paying for.....

~Haz~

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## Hazard

> *I'm sure there will be delays Hazard*. But again that will only be the issue for those who CHOOSE to use the 'public option'. Private insurance will not go away because of a public option. If you believe such, then I have some oceanfront property in Vegas to sell you...


We KNOW there will be delays..... why do you think canadiens pay out of pocket to have surgery in america?

~Haz~

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## TITANIUM

I'd watch it HAZ, as BgMc is a formidable member in the news here.

(Yes, I'm being facetious).

The debate will get interesting when he chimes in.

You yourself are a very intelligent member, so I always respect that.

This will send BgMc into a massive reflex of sorts.

He is very good at posting facts to uphold his statements.

(Ya, BgMc, I love ya bro, we just see things differently sometimes).

We shall see.......

Best

T

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## Hazard

> I'd watch it HAZ, as BgMc is a formidable member in the news here.
> 
> (Yes, I'm being facetious).
> 
> The debate will get interesting when he chimes in.
> 
> You yourself are a very intelligent member, so I always respect that.
> 
> This will send BgMc into a massive reflex of sorts.
> ...


 
LOLOLOL I don't think I can actually back up what I heard..... But I swear I did hear it LMAO - I don't really care enough, honestly, to find the factual truth behind it..... maybe BgMc would tho.....

~Haz~

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## thegodfather

> I'm not pissed T, you're just making unfounded accusations. You are saying that this administration would do it if the could, where's the proof of that statement? At no time has Obama said he wanted to ban all guns. If he did, please post...
> 
> Mooseman, the majority of the US population wants a 'public option' (some polls put support as high as 77%, http://www.surveyusa.com/client/Poll...8-62b9d1ba8693). Both current bills in the house and senate disallow illegals to take advantage of the public option. But we all know, people will figure out how to take advantage of the system. That's human nature.
> 
> Somebody said no one has made an issue of the abortion issue, that is simply not true. The house vote was help up by some dems simply on that portion of the bill alone and it was removed. I implore people that before you speak on these topics, to do some research to support your arguments.



As you know I write extensively about health care policy, and I have already covered this issue ad nauseam in other threads within this sub-forum. Rather than rehash the same arguments over and over and over again, and since I know you support this public option nonsense, I have a question for you.

What is your opinion on the proposed penalty tax and/or discussion of a 5 year prison sentence for declining to purchase health insurance at all?

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## TITANIUM

> As you know I write extensively about health care policy, and I have already covered this issue ad nauseam in other threads within this sub-forum. Rather than rehash the same arguments over and over and over again, and since I know you support this public option nonsense, I have a question for you.
> 
> What is your opinion on the proposed penalty tax and/or discussion of a 5 year prison sentence for declining to purchase health insurance at all?


This should prove to be interesting.

Best

T

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## BJJ

> This is like a Trojan horse that I have been studying for years.It seems that with this administration, it has the best chance of being signed in agreement with the UN. With the "blue dogs" in power in the House now, it could be filibustered, and plow it's way through. We are the last continent that has not played the game with UN on this subject. Thoughts??? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The U.N. Global Gun Ban Treaty - The Ugly Truth About Americas Friends and How They Fund the Global Ban
> 
> ...


The battle is already lost, by historical facts, so like ancient Chinese said "there is no reason to fight a war if you already know you are going to lose it".
I believe there is nothing you can do to avoid that ban.
I believe there is nothing you can do to oppose them.

While, you may find a way to protect your loved ones once that ban will take place.

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## Mooseman33

people who do not pay income taxes should not have a vote.
of course the poll numbers will be high as the people that are overwhelming for the plan are the ones that do not contribute and will not have their taxes increase as they dont pay taxes now.
take a poll of all tax paying citizens and see how many are for this crock of shit bill.

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## TITANIUM

> The battle is already lost, by historical facts, so like ancient Chinese said "there is no reason to fight a war if you already know you are going to lose it".
> I believe there is nothing you can do to avoid that ban.
> I believe there is nothing you can do to oppose them.
> 
> While, you may find a way to protect your loved ones once that ban will take place.




It is not over until it's over.

A war is what you make it.

It's truly a separation of the government and the voice and will of the people.

It's not over yet bro.

And I will die defending that Constitution I swore to uphold.

From all threats, foreign and domestic.

And true, I may die in vein.

But, I still will be right in the end.

And to me, that's worth dieing for.

Had to happen sometime.

Best

T

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## TITANIUM

> people who do not pay income taxes should not have a vote.
> of course the poll numbers will be high as the people that are overwhelming for the plan are the ones that do not contribute and will not have their taxes increase as they dont pay taxes now.
> take a poll of all tax paying citizens and see how many are for this crock of shit bill.


Yes, and deport all the illegals while we are at it.

I don't care where they go, but you can't stay here.

I'm in a shitty mood today or something.

I think it's the holidays coming on or something.

Anyways, like I said before, 150 years ago, they would of hung these fvcking politicians for tyranny against the people.

Chipping away at our Constitution and bill of rights.

I fought for what???

Somone please remind me.

Makes me brutally mad, and disgusted at the same time.

Best

T

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## RuhlFreak55

> *the entire population does not want universal healthcare here in Amercia.*
> 
> No illegals should have the oppurtunity to recieve the "public option" or any other form of healthcare here till they are legal.


Exactly....actually...anyone that's not a Sheeple and has a sub par IQ doesn't want it i would venture.

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## RuhlFreak55

> I'm sure there will be delays Hazard. But again that will only be the issue for those who CHOOSE to use the 'public option'. *Private insurance will not go away because of a public option.* If you believe such, then I have some oceanfront property in Vegas to sell you...


So you were given a full frontal lobotomy then? Because if you are dumb enough to believe that...well you can't have much reasoning power left.

EVERYTHING the gov't sticks their hands in they will eventually control completely if left unchecked, and it's undoubtable that that's their goal...they want to control every facet of our lives

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## BgMc31

> As you know I write extensively about health care policy, and I have already covered this issue ad nauseam in other threads within this sub-forum. Rather than rehash the same arguments over and over and over again, and since I know you support this public option nonsense, I have a question for you.
> 
> What is your opinion on the proposed penalty tax and/or discussion of a 5 year prison sentence for declining to purchase health insurance at all?


I disagree with that part of the bill. Look, I don't agree with everything in the bill. What I agree with is a need for universal healthcare.

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## BgMc31

> Can you show me proof that most Americans want it. Seems like its pretty hotly contested imo.


*Please check the link I posted on post #19*




> Right..... but from what I have heard on TV (yes yes..... we all know how reliable they are) Obama want's no public option. It was to my understanding that thats why people were infuriated...... other than illegals getting insurance that we'll be paying for.....
> 
> ~Haz~


*Obama is all for a public option. Check the actual bill, not listening to political commentary.*




> Yes, and *deport all the illegals while we are at it.*
> 
> I don't care where they go, but you can't stay here.
> 
> I'm in a shitty mood today or something.
> 
> I think it's the holidays coming on or something.
> 
> Anyways, like I said before, 150 years ago, they would of hung these fvcking politicians for tyranny against the people.
> ...


*And who do you propose pay for those deportations my conservative comrade? Conservatives are always whining about deporting illegals but again have no way of doing it. Typical conservatism. Just like this health care issue. They oppose any type of reform but agree the health care industry needs to be reformed. Political double-talk? Lastly with gun control...T, I guess you didn't read the politico (a conservative publication), the questionaire in question was filled out by a staffer. Blame obama for not being thorough, but don't blame him for positions he hasn't taken. He is in favor of GUN CONTROL, not eliminating all guns.

* Opposed bill okaying illegal gun use in home invasions. (Aug 2008)
* Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
* FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
* April 2008: "Bittergate" labeled Obama elitist. (Apr 2008)
* Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
* Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
* 2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
* Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
* Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
* Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
* Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
* Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
* Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005) 
source: http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
*




> So you were given a full frontal lobotomy then? Because if you are dumb enough to believe that...well you can't have much reasoning power left.
> 
> EVERYTHING the gov't sticks their hands in they will eventually control completely if left unchecked, and it's undoubtable that that's their goal...they want to control every facet of our lives


*Instead of stooping to insults, as you usually do Ruhl (that is why no one takes your seriously in these intellectual debates), try posting some data to support your claims. 

Let's see, the government owns the USPS and although its going bankrupt, it hasn't stopped private parties for starting mail service companies. While we pay into social security, companies still flourish in investments. The list goes on and on.*

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## Hazard

Universal healthcare is soooo poorly run in other countries...... the waiting is rediculous..... death panels are rediculous..... If canada's universal healthcare was so great they wouldn't be traveling to america to have their surgeries done.

Thi plan is an increased tax burden on the working ameican and most of the people (that I know in person) that want universal healthcare either:

A. Don't have health insurance
B. Have familly that doesn't have insurance

I myself don't have health insurance at the moment..... i've had it my whole life up until a month ago. I can't afford insurance at the moment..... but i'll be able to at another point. I'll hold out without insurance till then..... I don't want to see my grandparents, mother, father, etc in the hospital dying because a group of people decided their life was worth less than someone else's.....

~Haz~

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## BJJ

> It is not over until it's over.
> 
> A war is what you make it.
> 
> It's truly a separation of the government and the voice and will of the people.
> 
> It's not over yet bro.
> 
> And I will die defending that Constitution I swore to uphold.
> ...


In my opinion, bad times have to come for the humanity.
Respecting your point of view, I wish you Good Luck.

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## BgMc31

> Universal healthcare is soooo poorly run in other countries...... the waiting is rediculous..... death panels are rediculous..... If canada's universal healthcare was so great they wouldn't be traveling to america to have their surgeries done.
> 
> Thi plan is an increased tax burden on the working ameican and most of the people (that I know in person) that want universal healthcare either:
> 
> A. Don't have health insurance
> B. Have familly that doesn't have insurance
> 
> I myself don't have health insurance at the moment..... i've had it my whole life up until a month ago. I can't afford insurance at the moment..... but i'll be able to at another point. I'll hold out without insurance till then..... *I don't want to see my grandparents, mother, father, etc in the hospital dying because a group of people decided their life was worth less than someone else's.....*
> 
> ...


Ahhh the popular death panel argument. It doesn't exist Haz. I pray that you would actually read what's being proposed by congress instead of listening to political commentary. No one will decide who is going to die and who isn't Haz. Also, what you fail to recognize Haz, is that no one will be forced to accept the public option. If people want an inferior product they have the OPTION to purchase it. For those of us with great healthcare (as my family does, but it costs me almost $900/mo), nothing will change (except maybe cheaper rates). The quality of my healthcare won't change. The key to all this is the word 'OPTION' ie. CHOICE!! You don't have to purchase or use this 'OPTION'.

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## Mooseman33

actually the public is not infavor of this bill.

Monday, November 23, 2009 Email to a Friend ShareThisAdvertisement

Just 38% of voters now favor the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s the lowest level of support measured for the plan in nearly two dozen tracking polls conducted since June. 

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 56% now oppose the plan. 

Half the survey was conducted before the Senate voted late Saturday to begin debate on its version of the legislation. Support for the plan was slightly lower in the half of the survey conducted after the Senate vote. 

Prior to this, support for the plan had never fallen below 41%. Last week, support for the plan was at 47%. Two weeks ago, the effort was supported by 45% of voters. 

Intensity remains stronger among those who oppose the push to change the nation’s health care system: 21% Strongly Favor the plan while 43% are Strongly Opposed. 

Rasmussen Reports is continuing to track public opinion on the health care plan on a weekly basis. Next week’s Monday morning update will give an indication of whether these numbers reflect a trend of growing opposition or are merely statistical noise. 

(Want a free daily e-mail update? If it's in the news, it's in our polls). Rasmussen Reports updates are also available on Twitter or Facebook. 

Only 16% now believe passage of the plan will lead to lower health care costs. Nearly four times as many (60%) believe the plan will increase health care costs. Most (54%) also believe passage of the plan will hurt the quality of care. 

As has been the case for months, Democrats favor the plan while Republicans and voters not affiliated with either major party are opposed. The latest numbers show support from 73% of those in the president’s party. The plan is opposed by 83% of Republicans and 70% of unaffiliated voters. 

Other recent polling shows that Democrats consider health care reform to be the top priority for the president. Republicans and unaffiliated voters see deficit reduction as most important. 

Among the nation’s senior citizens, 34% favor the health care plan and 60% are opposed. A majority of those under 30 favor the plan, but a majority of all other age groups are opposed (Premium Members can see full demographic crosstabs). 

Support for health care has declined along with President Obama's approval ratings. For the first time in the Obama era, the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Approval Index has been in negative double digits for nine straight days. 

Despite the decline in support for the health care plan, 50% still say it is at least somewhat likely to become law this year. That figure includes 17% who say passage is Very Likely. 

While Senate Democrats this weekend assembled enough votes to begin debate on the plan, many challenges remain. All Republican Senators and several Democrats, for example, have expressed opposition to the so-called “public option.” Sixty-three percent (63%) of voters nationwide say guaranteeing that no one is forced to change their health insurance coverage is a higher priority than giving consumers the choice of a "public option" government-run health insurance company. Most liberal voters say giving people the choice of a "public option" is more important. But most moderates take the opposite view and say guaranteeing that no one is forced to change their health insurance is the top priority. 

Overall, 46% favor the creation of a government-sponsored non-profit health insurance option that people could choose instead of a private health insurance plan. However, if the plan encouraged companies to drop private health insurance coverage for their workers, support for the public option falls to 29%, and opposition rises to 58%. 

As Scott Rasmussen, president of Rasmussen Reports, wrote in the Wall Street Journal: “The most important fundamental is that 68% of American voters have health insurance coverage they rate good or excellent. … Most of these voters approach the health care reform debate fearing that they have more to lose than to gain.” 

Other challenging issues in the Senate debate include abortion and illegal immigration. Ever since the House's passage of the Stupak Amendment which says the "public option" would not cover elective abortions and that recipients of federal insurance subsidies could not use them to buy abortion coverage, the divide among Democrats has been visible. 

Earlier polling showed that 48% nationwide favored the abortion ban, but most supporters of health care reform didn’t want to address the issue. Just 13% of all voters wanted abortion coverage mandated in the legislation. 

On immigration, 83% say that proof of citizenship should be required before anyone can get health care assistance from a government program. Most Democrats while claiming the plan will not cover illegal immigrants are opposed to including a proof-of-citizenship stipulation.

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## Mooseman33

as posted on drudgereport...

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## BgMc31

Check what I said, Mooseman...I never said the public was in favor of the current bills in front of congress. What I said and my evidence pointed out is that the vast majority of the public is in favor of public option.

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## TITANIUM

*And who do you propose pay for those deportations my conservative comrade? Conservatives are always whining about deporting illegals but again have no way of doing it. Typical conservatism. Just like this health care issue. They oppose any type of reform but agree the health care industry needs to be reformed. Political double-talk? Lastly with gun control...T, I guess you didn't read the politico (a conservative publication), the questionaire in question was filled out by a staffer. Blame obama for not being thorough, but don't blame him for positions he hasn't taken. He is in favor of GUN CONTROL, not eliminating all guns.

* Opposed bill okaying illegal gun use in home invasions. (Aug 2008)
* Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
* FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
* April 2008: "Bittergate" labeled Obama elitist. (Apr 2008)
* Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
* Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
* 2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
* Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
* Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
* Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
* Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
* Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
* Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005) 
source: http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
*



Deportations can be done with some of the 850 billion dollars the government has invested in banks in China, (and other lucrative investments). I think we can find the money somewhere, since it's being printed on toilet paper by now.

As far as Obama goes, he was responsible for what anybody fills out on his behalf. Period. Don't blame it on a staffer, as I have heard this before. It does not hold water with me.

His voting record with firearms is horrible. He tried to back pedal the issue on his website, when he posted that he wanted to re-instate the assault weapons ban.Ya, that worked just great.

Do you know that the entire licensing system that states and the federal government is proven to be ineffective in the reduction of gun related crime?

Yup, it's true. It was instituted back in the early part of the last century to keep blacks from owning firearms. Then turned into a scheme to make money for the states and local governments. Then the anti's jumped on board and decided that it could be used to further there own agenda.

Which is what you see going on now in the liberal media hype. It's all BS, and you know it.

I think that the NICS is a good system, but that costs so much money to run it, it doesn't justify it's own existence.

I have a FFL, so I have all the statistics on this topic.But you should be able to access them from there website yourself.

Having to get a license to exercise a civil right is fvcking ridiculous.

And paying for it, or asking permission to exercise it is bull shit.

Best

T

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