# STEROIDS FORUM > SARMs (Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators) Information Forum >  S4 is andarine

## RUI-Products

We've found that according to the scientific database used by our third party testing facility S4 had been incorrectly identified and listed as ostarine. Because ostarine (MK-2866) and andarine (S4) have very similar molecular structures and properties, this misidentity has occured often, even so on the academic level - as illustrated by the fact the even the scientific database which the lab was using had S4 misidentified. Moving forward, to be clear, we sell S4. S4 is andarine, chemically: S-3-(4-acetylaminophenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-
trifluoromethylphenyl)propionamide.

Several published articles are available to learn more about andarine and its use as a predominant model compound of SARMs . 

An updated COA will soon be available.

AR-R

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## Necrosaro

Thanks for clearing that up Lion  :Smilie:

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## bass

thanks Lion...

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## toothache

Interesting...

It appears andarine is almost the same as ostarine.

Thanks for your honesty, Lion.

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## smegs

Ok..

So you're tell me, Lion, that what YOU sold me as ostarine, is anadrine?

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## smegs

> Interesting...
> 
> It appears andarine is almost the same as ostarine.
> 
> Thanks for your honesty, Lion.


Anadrine is NOT almost the same as ostarine.

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## smegs

> Interesting...
> 
> It appears andarine is almost the same as ostarine.
> 
> Thanks for your honesty, Lion.


Yes, the chemical structures differ by shifts in side-chain stability, because of this anadrine is NOT almost the same as ostraine.

Each have different affinity for different AR receptors in a tissue specific manner.

Had Lion been more consciences of I would have NEVER purchased and cycles anadrine

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## Equiguns

woah this sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

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## vestax

> woah this sucks!!!!!!!!!!!


Andarine causes not effect on skeletal muscle tissue and only promotes organogenesis. I want my money back!

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## endus

> Andarine causes not effect on skeletal muscle tissue and only promotes organogenesis. I want my money back!


My understanding of Organogenesis has to do with early fetal development (endo,ecto, meso - had to dig my text book out for that). So what do you mean, they tested these on pregnant women? Please explain so we know what you mean. Thanks

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## endus

> Interesting...
> 
> It appears andarine is almost the same as ostarine.
> 
> Thanks for your honesty, Lion.


Interesting how? Have you read any of the discussion? A single change in position or sequence have completely or vastly different result in Chem. There's NO ALMOST about this formula.

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## Kratos

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=411794

are you going to pull it lion?
plus isn't it quite a bit weaker per mg?

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## Kratos

I can't imagine why people want to take the stuff anyway...the only reason for sarms to be exciting to steroid users would be if they are selective when it comes to HTPA, which S1 and S4 are not. They are selective for sebacious glands and prostate, but you'll still need pct, and although valid concerns the HTPA is the big one.

Lets see, I'm not able to see at night...yeah I think that's acceptable for muscle gain and I'm sure it will go away...seems crazy to me, I'd rather be dead then blind.

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## Equiguns

what happens now? this is going to be tough on ar-r !!! i'm sure they will take care of us even tho it will be tough on them. if anything, to avoid people calling their cc companies and disputing this crap. in the end we will get taken care of some how.

on a side note, can anyone with articles or info on andarine please post it up here, especially any info on its properties and actions in humans, as well as it's current level of study in humans? phase 1 or 2 or taken out of clinical trials? any info would be appreciated if it could all be in one place on this thread.

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## Kratos

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2039883/

I think everything else is animal data, and the animals put on muscle or whatever...but that would explain why andarine was not further studied or marketed. Metabolites are most likely responsible for the human sides including but not limited to vision.

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## Necrosaro

For information on both just in case people want to know.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Andarine (S-1) is an investigational selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM) developed by GTx Inc for treatment of conditions such as muscle wasting, osteoporosis and benign prostatic hypertrophy,[1] using the non-steroidal androgen antagonist bicalutamide as a lead compound.[2]

Andarine is an orally active partial agonist for androgen receptors. It is less potent in both anabolic and androgenic effects than other similar drugs such as ostarine, but this is useful for some indications.[1] In an animal model of benign prostatic hypertrophy, andarine was shown to reduce prostate weight with similar efficacy to finasteride, but without producing any reduction in muscle mass or anti-androgenic side effects.[3] This suggests that it is able to block binding of dihydrotestosterone to its receptor targets in the prostate gland, but its partial agonist effects at androgen receptors prevent the side effects associated with the anti-androgenic drugs traditionally used for treatment of BPH.[4]

Selective androgen receptor modulators may also be used by athletes to assist in training and increase physical stamina and fitness, potentially producing effects similar to anabolic steroids but with significantly less side effects. For this reason, SARMs have already been banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency since January 2008 despite no drugs from this class yet being in clinical use, and blood tests for all known SARMs are currently being developed.[5][6]


Ostarine is an investigational selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM) developed by GTx Inc for treatment of conditions such as muscle wasting and osteoporosis.[1] Treatment with exogenous testosterone is effective in counteracting these symptoms but is associated with a range of side effects, the most serious of which is enlargement of the prostate gland, which can lead to benign prostatic hypertrophy and even prostate cancer. This means there is a clinical need for selective androgen receptor modulators, which produce anabolic effects in some tissues such as muscle and bone, but without stimulating androgen receptors in the prostate.[2] Ostarine was one of the first SARMs to be developed,[3] using the non-steroidal androgen antagonist bicalutamide as a lead compound.[4]

Ostarine is an orally active, potent and selective agonist for androgen receptors which was shown in animal studies to have anabolic effects in both muscle and bone tissue, but with no measurable effect on lutenizing hormone or follicle-stimulating hormone levels at the dose range tested, although it did increase prostate weight, with an androgenic potency around 1/3rd of its anabolic potency. It was shown in vitro to increase the ratio of osteoblast formation from bone marrow osteoprogenitor cells, and reduced the number of new osteoclasts formed. It produced dose-dependent increases in bone mineral density and mechanical strength in vivo, as well as decreasing body fat and increasing lean body mass.[5] However while human trials have shown evidence of similar efficacy, ostarine has a short half-life in humans of only 4 hours,[6] and while ostarine has gone through human trials up to Phase II with positive results,[7] longer acting analogues are currently in development which may be more suitable for clinical use.

Selective androgen receptor modulators may also be used by athletes to assist in training and increase physical stamina and fitness, potentially producing effects similar to anabolic steroids but with significantly less side effects. For this reason, SARMs have already been banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency since January 2008 despite no drugs from this class yet being in clinical use, and blood tests for all known SARMs are currently being developed.[8][9]

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## Oakleys

Shit.

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## Equiguns

i wonder if ar-r will come out with proper ostarine?

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## Oakleys

> i wonder if ar-r will come out with proper ostarine?


I hope so, I was really looking forward to trying this stuff out.

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## Vettester

Should we put a hold on the logs until this gets sorted out?

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## Oakleys

> Should we put a hold on the logs until this gets sorted out?


I would. This stuff doesn't look exactly ' Legit '

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## Equiguns

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2039883/
> 
> I think everything else is animal data, and the animals put on muscle or whatever...but that would explain why andarine was not further studied or marketed. Metabolites are most likely responsible for the human sides including but not limited to vision.



thanks for the post

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## Equiguns

> Should we put a hold on the logs until this gets sorted out?



NO!! logs are the most important entity now! Do NOT hold out logs, we need to document everything including positives AND negatives. we, my friend, are now really the mice. on the other hand, if you are contemplating discontinuing S4 then that's different...its up to your discretion. but if you continue taking S4 or have been taking it, then i would post anything and everything you believe to be associated with this stuff. 

What we need now are experimental subjects that have extensive experience with ar-r 's S4. anyone done multiple month sessions with this stuff? say 2 x 8 weeks cycles for a total of 16 weeks OR MORE? please post anything and everything you can as far as positives and negatives, including dosages, anything taking with it, etc, side effects, labs...everything...

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## Kratos

right? lets run our own clinical trial via the net
or how about anybody with a brain stops taking it

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## Oakleys

> right? lets run our own clinical trial via the net
> or how about anybody with a brain stops taking it


I agree. 

Its just not safe at all.

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## endus

Why is it not safe? And this is coming from a guy that had a severe allergic reaction.

Before jumping on a bandwagon, lets examine some of the facts based on actual experiences. Yes, Ar-r F*** us over with bogus Ostarine when same Andarine compound could be bought for 1/3 to 1/4 the price from chavo or Sarmsearch. Thats a fact.

So lets get down to good/bad,


Fact,

1) We all know this is fairly new - Ostarine or Andarine, doesn't matter, its new in overall scheme of things.

2) there's bunch of studies available that describe Andarine - make you own decision.

3) No one can make Ostarine - only GTx can (now we know).


Now to Bad,

1) Vision issue. We all know about this - and there's no long term answer. 

2) Two (2) person had a allergic reaction (confirmed). If we had to compare this to reactions people get from other AAS, I would say its mild or very low percentage. I have to assume lot more people took S4 than available logs (other board also have users discussion/taking S4)

3) Some didn't get anything out of S4. I guess no different than some other AAS compound?

4) It suppress Test/LH per some blood work unlike what some have claimed.

5) super mild compared to other AAS.

6) No AAS like muscle development or aggression/mood enhancement.

Now the Good part,

1) Strength - some reported nice strength gains, see all the logs. 

2) Some reported that it helped with their joint issues - bass and Okinawa reported this and perhaps others?

3) Some reported that it helps them with lean gain/fat loss. 

This is a fact - so before jumping in and saying this is dangerous, let examine them first, is all. Add anything you may have to this list so others could see.

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## Oakleys

If you want to be the lab rat go ahead.


I've read all I have wanted. I'm not taking it until I see more results.

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## endus

> If you want to be the lab rat go ahead.
> 
> 
> I've read all I have wanted. I'm not taking it until I see more results.


Good for you! do read the logs for results.

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## endus

One other thing - S4 gives me acne. Mild but under chin area, which is hormonal related. I have't heard from people who actually took S4. Did anyone else had this issue?

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## Kratos

> One other thing - S4 gives me acne. Mild but under chin area, which is hormonal related. I have't heard from people who actually took S4. Did anyone else had this issue?


as far as I'm concerned the logs are useless...nobody should touch this stuff if it's given to you. Potentially profitable drugs don't get pulled from trials for no reason. Bro logs can't measure zillions of factors that a proper trial would. Anybody who would use it knowing it failed to establish reasonable safety in humans is crazy.

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## Equiguns

you can look at it both ways...when i said logs need to be continued, what i MEANT to say is... those of you who are reading this thread and are going to CONTINUE their S4 treatments, PLEASE log as much info on here as possible. If you choose to stop then please realize you are possibly avoiding further complications that have not been discussed, and stopping seems to be a good idea given the new circumstances.

people with extensive experience with this compound should also read this and come on here and post even if they are not currently on S4...and at least post anything they can about anything, if you get my drift.

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## Oakleys

> you can look at it both ways...when i said logs need to be continued, what i MEANT to say is... those of you who are reading this thread and are going to CONTINUE their S4 treatments, PLEASE log as much info on here as possible. If you choose to stop then please realize you are possibly avoiding further complications that have not been discussed, and stopping seems to be a good idea given the new circumstances.
> 
> people with extensive experience with this compound should also read this and come on here and post even if they are not currently on S4...and at least post anything they can about anything, if you get my drift.


I feel what your saying. 

Just be careful. This stuff isn't something to mess around with.

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## RUI-Products

S4 (andarine) will continue to be offered at the store. While S4 initially was sold as Ostarine, many of the published articles and studies which were the basis of our release of this product were studies done on S4, or andarine. Now that it is clear to us what it is we are selling, we can move forward establishing S4's value in our particular market, while we wait for Ostarine to become available.

Those saying in this thread and elsewhere that S4 (andarine) DOES NOT demonstrate a high degree of tissue-selective pharmacological activites, including strong anabolic activity in skeletal muscle ARE WRONG. All material you read that has been published on andarine and ostarine state this as among their most identifying attributes. 

The only reason indicating why andarine was not further progressed in clinical study - and why ostarine was - is this excerpt from a journal found on American Chemistry Society's website. (ACS). This published journal is not viewable without an account, i will post this excerpt....VERY good reading....i've included the link if you'd like to pay to read the entire address:





*3602 Journal of Medicinal Chemistry, 2009, Vol. 52, No. 12 Award Address*
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm900280m

_Section 2.1.7. Andarine, the Prototypical Full Efficacy SARM._ 
_
Andarine was a SARM that served as the predominant model compound early in the development of the SARM field. Many of the landmark studies with andarine served as proofs-of-concept in the SARM field (e.g., concomitant myo- and osteoanabolism in the absence of VP proliferation, musculoskeletal performance enhancement, etc.). Preclinical characterization of andarine demonstrated high binding affinity for AR (Ki ) 4 nM) and ideal pharmacokinetics (complete oral bioavailability, plasma half-life consistent with daily oral dosing in rats and dogs) with no cross-reactivity with the other nuclear receptors. Myoanabolism was demonstrated in terms of maintenance and restoration of LA weight and restoration of soleus muscle strength in castrated rats. Likewise, osteoanabolism was observed in maintenance and restorative modes in male and female rats with improvements in biomechanical strength, cumulatively demonstrating musculoskeletal performance enhancement. The anabolic effects were also observed at the level of the entire organism as revealed by favorable body composition changes. Importantly, these anabolic effects were tissue-selective when compared to androgenic tissue and HPG axis effects, establishing andarine as a prototypical preclinical SARM. The peripheral and selective anabolic preclinical pharmacodynamic profile of andarine seemed highly promising and stimulated us to pursue landmark clinical trials of the SARMs, andarine and Ostarine. Although phase I studies with andarine were successful with no deficiencies noted , Ostarine was selected for advanced clinical development based on corporate strategy. Readers are cautioned to note that the name Ostarine is often mistakenly linked to the chemical structure of andarine. The chemical structure of Ostarine has not been publicly disclosed. The authors are unable to provide additional information. Collectively, these preclinical and clinical studies have provided the foundation for the massive body of SARM characterizations that are now published and patented (discussed below). Importantly, many of these pharmacodynamic observations have proven to be typical of subsequently published chemodiverse SARMs, as discussed in section 3._

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## endus

This study was brought up before and it does show "anabolic activities" on castrated cat and mice.

But if you read the study posted by Kratos, it basically says what worked for animal didn't effect human in same way. Did anyone read that differently?

Here's the link again,




> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2039883/

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## Kratos

J&J had paid millions in a licence agreement for andarine and didn't move forward with clinical trials.
This is a company with unlimited resources and no potential sarms in their portfolio. So the idea they moved forward with ostarine because it looked better for corperate strategy doesn't hold.

If you're going to continue to offer the product, I respect that. People need to make their own choices. And I know it's no fault of Arr as to the mis-labeling of the chemical.

To me it looks like a product that has metabolic issues in humans resposible for a few common side effects and the potential for in rare cases much more severe ones. Anyone interested should be aware that this is an untested compound. It might be harmful to humans. Many many drugs look great in animals every year but don't work in humans. What a company says in a press release vs what happens in peer reviewed clinical data are not the same.

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## Kratos

> This study was brought up before and it does show "anabolic activities" on castrated cat and mice.
> 
> But if you read the study posted by Kratos, it basically says what worked for animal didn't effect human in same way. Did anyone read that differently?
> 
> Here's the link again,


Yes, it seems to work fine in rats and dogs. They put on muscle and it's eliminated in a consistant controled way. There seems to be metablic problems with humans though.

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## Oakleys

Interesting stuff...

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## Okinawa_Power

Do we get a discount on our next order because of the F-UP? LOL!!!!! I don't care that it was andraine it helped my joints out.......

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## tballz

> Do we get a discount on our next order because of the F-UP? LOL!!!!! I don't care that it was andraine it helped my joints out.......


It looks like it has helped a few people out.

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## Necrosaro

I ordered as well before the news and going to see what goes on..till then I will wait.

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## JoeSmith69

Send it back, get a refund...The "Research Company" made the mistake, accepts responsibility, and therefore should be willing to give full or partial refunds. That's how it works in the real world...You paid top dollar for what you thought was Ostarine and instead got Andarine...If i were you I'd want my money back ASAP.




> I ordered as well before the news and going to see what goes on..till then I will wait.

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## endus

> Do we get a discount on our next order because of the F-UP? LOL!!!!! I don't care that it was andraine it helped my joints out.......


I care - won't you be pissed if you bought Test E and got Tren ? Both will get you result but its a vastly different compound. 

I don't care about the discount - its more about their reputation. I'm wondering what else is not right about their product line. Can I trust their Nolva? or will they just say, we mis-understood what we were getting. Meanwhile you got a Pam Anderson size boob because of their mistake. 

Reputation for research/underground lab is more important than price of their goods. Hell, I knew about Chavo's S4, which is 1/4 of Ar-r 's price but I still bought Ar-r's S4 (also bought Chavos too, don't get me wrong). Still, in the end, I buy most of my stuff from Ar-r because I feel they can be trusted, not because their price is lower (and they are not). I hope Ar-r is reading this.

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## RUI-Products

> I care - won't you be pissed if you bought Test E and got Tren ? Both will get you result but its a vastly different compound. 
> 
> I don't care about the discount - its more about their reputation. I'm wondering what else is not right about their product line. Can I trust their Nolva? or will they just say, we mis-understood what we were getting. Meanwhile you got a Pam Anderson size boob because of their mistake. 
> 
> Reputation for research/underground lab is more important than price of their goods. Hell, I knew about Chavo's S4, which is 1/4 of Ar-r's price but I still bought Ar-r's S4 (also bought Chavos too, don't get me wrong). Still, in the end, I buy most of my stuff from Ar-r because I feel they can be trusted, not because their price is lower (and they are not). I hope Ar-r is reading this.



I appreciate your response, endus, more than you will know. Quality assurance is the most important thing we consider. This is hopefully apparent with the years worth of happy research experiences we've tried to cultivate. We appreciate your business and everyone's business that orders through AR-R . 

The equally highest value we consider is transparency. As information has been presented, i've done my best to pass it on in the open forums. Any specific inquiry that someone may still have that isn't answered by these posts can send me a PM or email directly.

AR-R

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## adam15425

I think that this is great that AR-R owned up to their mistake finally. Although, the total blame cannot be on them since it "seems" even as if scientific publications were mislabled also. Would I personally purchase or recommend any product from them here on out, probably not. It really only takes one instance to defame a business and this is definitely one of those instances. This will be a tough blemish for AR-R to rid of their reputation IMO.

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## mister.fantastic

> It really only takes one instance to defame a business and this is definitely one of those instances. This will be a tough blemish for AR-R to rid of their reputation IMO.



i don't see this as too much of a blemish... He's been decent enough to announce the lab mistake. Additionally, its seems quite a few folks have had good success with his S4, andarine, whatever its called. Personally, i will not purchase any sarms until ostarine becomes available.......

but i sure as hell know where i'm getting my PCT for next month

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## tballz

> I think that this is great that AR-R owned up to their mistake finally. Although, the total blame cannot be on them since it "seems" even as if scientific publications were mislabled also. Would I personally purchase or recommend any product from them here on out, probably not. It really only takes one instance to defame a business and this is definitely one of those instances. This will be a tough blemish for AR-R to rid of their reputation IMO.


I do believe Merck has put out drugs that has been known to kill people like Vioxx. I do believe Merck is still running strong and still puts out very useful drugs.

I will be shopping at AR-R like I have always done. They came clean, I don't see any other sarms sellers saying this stuff.

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## adam15425

Damn you boys are quick to defend. I'm not trying to bash AR-R , I'm just stating the obvious. Also, I don't know why everyone gets pct supplies from a research chem site anyway when pharma grade can be had so easily and cheaper IMO.

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## endus

> Damn you boys are quick to defend. I'm not trying to bash AR-R, I'm just stating the obvious. Also, I don't know why everyone gets pct supplies from a research chem site anyway when pharma grade can be had so easily and cheaper IMO.


Lot of source have a minimum, at least mine does. Send me a pm if you know that doesn't.

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## adam15425

> Lot of source have a minimum, at least mine does. Send me a pm if you know that doesn't.


 You got mail big guy ...

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