# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Israel calls Iran it's "greatest threat"

## Phreak101

UNITED NATIONS - The Israeli foreign minister on Wednesday warned that Iranian leaders pose the biggest threat to the world's values because they "speak proudly" of their wish to destroy Israel and pursue weapons to achieve that objective. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/...i_ea/un_israel

What if George Bush had said he wanted to "wipe China off the map". Would the world still sympathize with the U.S.? My guess is no, so why are corners of the world sympathizing with Iran?  :Hmmmm:

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## Teabagger

Shut your mouth!! Israel is LYING!! The jews own the media, and they make up that stuff to make peace loving Iran look bad!! SHUT YOUR MOUTH!! Iran only wants to live in peace and harmony with all its neigbors, sunni, shia, jew, christian, hindu, whatever...we love everyone...SHUT YOUR MOUTH you lying american. You are lucky we are not a violent culture like Israel or someone would say you needed your head cut off and put a bounty on your life so..............SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!!!

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## humungus88

Madam President,
Distinguished Heads of State and Government,
Distinguished Heads of Delegation, 
Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen

I praise the Merciful, All-Knowing and Almighty God for blessing me with another opportunity to address this Assembly on behalf of the great nation of Iran and to bring a number of issues to the attention of the international community.

I also praise the Almighty for the increasing vigilance of peoples across the globe, their courageous presence in different international settings, and the brave expression of their views and aspirations regarding global issues.

Today, humanity passionately craves commitment to the Truth, devotion to God, quest for Justice and respect for the dignity of human beings. Rejection of domination and aggression, defense of the oppressed. And longing for peace constitute the legitimate demand of the peoples of the world, particularly the new generations and the spirited youth, who aspire a world free from decadence, aggression and injustice, and replete with love and compassion. The youth have a right to seek justice and the Truth; and they have a right to build their own future on the foundations of love, compassion and tranquility. And, I praise the Almighty for this immense blessing.


Madame President,
Excellencies,

What afflicts humanity today is certainly not compatible with human dignity; the Almighty has not created human beings so that they could transgress against others and oppress them.

By causing war and conflict, some are fast expanding their domination, accumulating greater wealth and usurping all the resources, while others endure the resulting poverty, suffering and misery. 

Some seek to rule the world relying on weapons and threats, while others live in perpetual insecurity and danger.

Some occupy the homeland of others, thousands of kilometers away from their borders, interfere in their affairs and control their oil and other resources and strategic routes, while others are bombarded daily in their own homes; their children murdered in the streets and alleys of their own country and their homes reduced to rubble.

Such behavior is not worthy of human beings and runs counter to the Truth, to justice and to human dignity. The fundamental question is that under such conditions, where should the oppressed seek justice? Who or what organization defends the rights of the oppressed, and suppresses acts of aggression and oppression? Where is the seat of global justice?

A brief glance at a few examples of the most pressing global issues can further illustrate the problem.

A. The unbridled expansion of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons

Some powers proudly announce their production of second and third generations of nuclear weapons. What do they need these weapons for? Is the development and stockpiling of these deadly weapons designed to promote peace and democracy? Or, are these weapons, in fact, instruments of coercion and threat against other peoples and governments? How long should the people of the world live with the nightmare of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons? What bounds the powers producing and possessing these weapons? How can they be held accountable before the international community? And, are the inhabitants of these countries content with the waste of their wealth and resources for the production of such destructive arsenals? Is it not possible to rely on justice, ethics and wisdom instead of these instruments of death? Arent wisdom and justice more compatible with peace and tranquility than nuclear, chemical and biological weapons? If wisdom, ethics and justice prevail, then oppression and aggression will be uprooted, threats will wither away and no reason will remain for conflict. This is a solid proposition because most global conflicts emanate from injustice, and from the powerful, not being contented with their own rights, striving to devour the rights of others.
People across the globe embrace justice and are willing to sacrifice for its sake.

Would it not be easier for global powers to ensure their longevity and win hearts and minds through the championing of real promotion of justice, compassion and peace, than through continuing the proliferation of nuclear and chemical weapons and the threat of their use? 

The experience of the threat and the use of nuclear weapons is before us. Has it achieved anything for the perpetrators other than exacerbation of tension, hatred and animosity among nations?

B. Occupation of countries and exacerbation of hostilities

Occupation of countries, including Iraq, has continued for the last three years. Not a day goes by without hundreds of people getting killed in cold blood. The occupiers are incapable of establishing security in Iraq. Despite the establishment of the lawful Government and National Assembly of Iraq, there are covert and overt efforts to heighten insecurity, magnify and aggravate differences within Iraqi society, and instigate civil strife.

There is no indication that the occupiers have the necessary political will to eliminate the sources of instability. Numerous terrorists were apprehended by the Government of Iraq, only to be let loose under various pretexts by the occupiers.

It seems that intensification of hostilities and terrorism serves as a pretext for the continued presence of foreign forces in Iraq.

Where can the people of Iraq seek refuge, and from whom should the Government of Iraq seek justice? 

Who can ensure Iraq's security? Insecurity in Iraq affects the entire region. Can the Security Council play a role in restoring peace and security in Iraq, while the occupiers are themselves permanent members of the Council? Can the Security Council adopt a fair decision in this regard?

Consider the situation in Palestine:

The roots of the Palestinian problem go back to the Second World War. Under the pretext of protecting some of the survivors of that War, the land of Palestine was occupied through war, aggression and the displacement of millions of its inhabitants; it was placed under the control of some of the War survivors, bringing even larger population groups from elsewhere in the world, who had not been even affected by the Second World War; and a government was established in the territory of others with a population collected from across the world at the expense of driving millions of the rightful inhabitants of the land into a Diaspora and homelessness. This is a great tragedy with hardly a precedent in history. Refugees continue to live in temporary refugee camps, and many have died still hoping to one day return to their land. Can any logic, law or legal reasoning justify this tragedy? Can any member of the United Nations accept such a tragedy occurring in their own homeland? 

The pretexts for the creation of the regime occupying Al-Qods Al-Sharif are so weak that its proponents want to silence any voice trying to merely speak about them, as they are concerned that shedding light on the facts would undermine the raison d'être of this regime, as it has. The tragedy does not end with the establishment of a regime in the territory of others. Regrettably, from its inception, that regime has been a constant source of threat and insecurity in the Middle East region, waging war and spilling blood and impeding the progress of regional countries, and has also been used by some powers as an instrument of division, coercion, and pressure on the people of the region. Reference to these historical realities may cause some disquiet among supporters of this regime. But these are sheer facts and not myth. History has unfolded before our eyes. 

Worst yet, is the blanket and unwarranted support provided to this regime. 

Just watch what is happening in the Palestinian land. People are being bombarded in their own homes and their children murdered in their own streets and alleys. But no authority, not even the Security Council, can afford them any support or protection. Why?

At the same time, a Government is formed democratically and through the free choice of the electorate in a part of the Palestinian territory. But instead of receiving the support of the so-called champions of democracy, its Ministers and Members of Parliament are illegally a**ucted and incarcerated in full view of the international community. 

Which council or international organization stands up to protect this brutally besieged Government? And why can't the Security Council take any steps?

Let me here address Lebanon:

For thirty-three long days, the Lebanese lived under the barrage of fire and bombs and close to 1.5 million of them were displaced; meanwhile some members of the Security Council practically chose a path that provided ample opportunity for the aggressor to achieve its objectives militarily. We witnessed that the Security Council of the United Nations was practically incapacitated by certain powers to even call for a ceasefire. The Security Council sat idly by for so many days, witnessing the cruel scenes of atrocities against the Lebanese while tragedies such as Qana were persistently repeated. Why?

In all these cases, the answer is self-evident. When the power behind the hostilities is itself a permanent member of the Security Council, how then can this Council fulfill its responsibilities?

C. Lack of respect for the rights of members of the international community

Excellencies,

I now wish to refer to some of the grievances of the Iranian people and speak to the injustices against them.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is a member of the IAEA and is committed to the NPT. All our nuclear activities are transparent, peaceful and under the watchful eyes of IAEA inspectors. Why then are there objections to our legally recognized rights? Which governments object to these rights? Governments that themselves benefit from nuclear energy and the fuel cycle. Some of them have abused nuclear technology for non-peaceful ends including the production of nuclear bombs, and some even have a bleak record of using them against humanity.

Which organization or Council should address these injustices? Is the Security Council in a position to address them? Can it stop violations of the inalienable rights of countries? Can it prevent certain powers from impeding scientific progress of other countries?

The abuse of the Security Council, as an instrument of threat and coercion, is indeed a source of grave concern.

Some permanent members of the Security Council, even when they are themselves parties to international disputes, conveniently threaten others with the Security Council and declare, even before any decision by the Council, the condemnation of their opponents by the Council. The question is: what can justify such exploitation of the Security Council, and doesn't it erode the credibility and effectiveness of the Council? Can such behavior contribute to the ability of the Council to maintain security?

Excellencies,

A review of the preceding historical realities would lead to the conclusion that regrettably, justice has become a victim of force and aggression.

- Many global arrangements have become unjust, discriminatory and irresponsible as a result of undue pressure from some of the powerful;

- Threats with nuclear weapons and other instruments of war by some powers have taken the place of respect for the rights of nations and the maintenance and promotion of peace and tranquility;

- For some powers, claims of promotion of human rights and democracy can only last as long as they can be used as instruments of pressure and intimidation against other nations. But when it comes to the interests of the claimants, concepts such as democracy, the right of self-determination of nations, respect for the rights and intelligence of peoples, international law and justice have no place or value. This is blatantly manifested in the way the elected Government of the Palestinian people is treated as well as in the support extended to the Zionist regime. It does not matter if people are murdered in Palestine, turned into refugees, captured, imprisoned or besieged; that must not violate human rights.

- Nations are not equal in exercising their rights recognized by international law. Enjoying these rights is dependent on the whim of certain major powers.

- Apparently the Security Council can only be used to ensure the security and the rights of some big powers. But when the oppressed are decimated under bombardment, the Security Council must remain aloof and not even call for a ceasefire. Is this not a tragedy of historic proportions for the Security Council, which is charged with maintaining the security of countries?

- The prevailing order of contemporary global interactions is such that certain powers equate themselves with the international community, and consider their decisions superseding that of over 180 countries. They consider themselves the masters and rulers of the entire world and other nations as only second class in the world order.

Excellencies,

The question needs to be asked: if the Governments of the United States or the United Kingdom, who are permanent members of the Security Council, commit aggression, occupation and violation of international law, which of the organs of the UN can take them to account? Can a Council in which they are privileged members address their violations? Has this ever happened? In fact, we have repeatedly seen the reverse. If they have differences with a nation or state, they drag it to the Security Council and as claimants, arrogate to themselves simultaneously the roles of prosecutor, judge and executioner. Is this a just order? Can there be a more vivid case of discrimination and more clear evidence of injustice?

Regrettably, the persistence of some hegemonic powers in imposing their exclusionist policies on international decision making mechanisms, including the Security Council, has resulted in a growing mistrust in global public opinion, undermining the credibility and effectiveness of this most universal system of collective security.

Excellencies,

How long can such a situation last in the world? It is evident that the behavior of some powers constitutes the greatest challenge before the Security Council, the entire organization and its affiliated agencies.

The present structure and working methods of the Security Council, which are legacies of the Second World War, are not responsive to the expectations of the current generation and the contemporary needs of humanity.

Today, it is undeniable that the Security Council, most critically and urgently, needs legitimacy and effectiveness. It must be acknowledged that as long as the Council is unable to act on behalf of the entire international community in a transparent, just and democratic manner, it will neither be legitimate nor effective. Furthermore, the direct relation between the abuse of veto and the erosion of the legitimacy and effectiveness of the Council has now been clearly and undeniably established. We cannot, and should not, expect the eradication, or even containment, of injustice, imposition and oppression without reforming the structure and working methods of the Council.

Is it appropriate to expect this generation to submit to the decisions and arrangements established over half a century ago? Doesn't this generation or future generations have the right to decide themselves about the world in which they want to live?

Today, serious reform in the structure and working methods of the Security Council is, more than ever before, necessary. Justice and democracy dictate that the role of the General Assembly, as the highest organ of the United Nations, must be respected. The General Assembly can then, through appropriate mechanisms, take on the task of reforming the Organization and particularly rescue the Security Council from its current state. In the interim, the Non-Aligned Movement, the Organization of the Islamic Conference and the African continent should each have a representative as a permanent member of the Security Council, with veto privilege. The resulting balance would hopefully prevent further trampling of the rights of nations. 

Madame President,

Excellencies,

It is essential that spirituality and ethics find their rightful place in international relations. Without ethics and spirituality, attained in light of the teachings of Divine prophets, justice, freedom and human rights cannot be guaranteed.

Resolution of contemporary human crises lies in observing ethics and spirituality and the governance of righteous people of high competence and piety.

Should respect for the rights of human beings become the predominant objective, then injustice, ill-temperament, aggression and war will fade away.

Human beings are all God's creatures and are all endowed with dignity and respect.

No one has superiority over others. No individual or states can arrogate to themselves special privileges, nor can they disregard the rights of others and, through influence and pressure, position themselves as the international community. 

Citizens of Asia, Africa, Europe and America are all equal. Over six billion inhabitants of the earth are all equal and worthy of respect.

Justice and protection of human dignity are the two pillars in maintaining sustainable peace, security and tranquility in the world.

It is for this reason that we state: 

Sustainable peace and tranquility in the world can only be attained through justice, spirituality, ethics, compassion and respect for human dignity. 

All nations and states are entitled to peace, progress and security.

We are all members of the international community and we are all entitled to insist on the creation of a climate of compassion, love and justice.

All members of the United Nations are affected by both the bitter and the sweet events and developments in today's world.

We can adopt firm and logical decisions, thereby improving the prospects of a better life for current and future generations.

Together, we can eradicate the roots of bitter maladies and afflictions, and instead, through the promotion of universal and lasting values such as ethics, spirituality and justice, allow our nations to taste the sweetness of a better future.

Peoples, driven by their divine nature, intrinsically seek Good, Virtue, Perfection and Beauty. Relying on our peoples, we can take giant steps towards reform and pave the road for human perfection. Whether we like it or not, justice, peace and virtue will sooner or later prevail in the world with the will of Almighty God. It is imperative, and also desirable, that we too contribute to the promotion of justice and virtue.

The Almighty and Merciful God, who is the Creator of the Universe, is also its Lord and Ruler. Justice is His command. He commands His creatures to support one another in Good, virtue and piety, and not in decadence and corruption.

He commands His creatures to enjoin one another to righteousness and virtue and not to sin and transgression. All Divine prophets from the Prophet Adam (peace be upon him) to the Prophet Moses (peace be upon him), to the Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), to the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), have all called humanity to monotheism, justice, brotherhood, love and compassion. Is it not possible to build a better world based on monotheism, justice, love and respect for the rights of human beings, and thereby transform animosities into friendship? 

I emphatically declare that today's world, more than ever before, longs for just and righteous people with love for all humanity; and above all longs for the perfect righteous human being and the real savior who has been promised to all peoples and who will establish justice, peace and brotherhood on the planet.

O, Almighty God, all men and women are your creatures and you have ordained their guidance and salvation. Bestow upon humanity that thirsts for justice, the perfect human being promised to all by you, and make us among his followers and among those who strive for his return and his cause.
________________

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## tiger909

> Shut your mouth!! Israel is LYING!! The jews own the media, and they make up that stuff to make peace loving Iran look bad!! SHUT YOUR MOUTH!! Iran only wants to live in peace and harmony with all its neigbors, sunni, shia, jew, christian, hindu, whatever...we love everyone...SHUT YOUR MOUTH you lying american. You are lucky we are not a violent culture like Israel or someone would say you needed your head cut off and put a bounty on your life so..............SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!!!




is that you tbagger?

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## Kärnfysikern

> Madam President,
> Distinguished Heads of State and Government,
> Distinguished Heads of Delegation, 
> Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen
> 
> I praise the Merciful, All-Knowing and Almighty God for blessing me with another opportunity to address this Assembly on behalf of the great nation of Iran and to bring a number of issues to the attention of the international community.
> 
> I also praise the Almighty for the increasing vigilance of peoples across the globe, their courageous presence in different international settings, and the brave expression of their views and aspirations regarding global issues.
> 
> ...


He sure has a better speachwriter than president bush  :Smilie:

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## Kärnfysikern

> UNITED NATIONS - The Israeli foreign minister on Wednesday warned that Iranian leaders pose the biggest threat to the world's values because they "speak proudly" of their wish to destroy Israel and pursue weapons to achieve that objective. 
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/...i_ea/un_israel
> 
> What if George Bush had said he wanted to "wipe China off the map". Would the world still sympathize with the U.S.? My guess is no, so why are corners of the world sympathizing with Iran?


I am not personaly sympathizing with Iran. But I dont think its been proven that they want nuclear weapons and thats why I dont support any military action against them.

If we dont even put a sentance on a criminal before he has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Why should we violate other sovereign countries for less?

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## zOaib

a well spoken speech , and he is definately smarter than Bush !

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## Kale

> a well spoken speech , and he is definately smarter than Bush !


My 14 year old son is smarter than Bush !!!

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## Oki-Des

> Shut your mouth!! Israel is LYING!! The jews own the media, and they make up that stuff to make peace loving Iran look bad!! SHUT YOUR MOUTH!! Iran only wants to live in peace and harmony with all its neigbors, sunni, shia, jew, christian, hindu, whatever...we love everyone...SHUT YOUR MOUTH you lying american. You are lucky we are not a violent culture like Israel or someone would say you needed your head cut off and put a bounty on your life so..............SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!!!


Listen, you are telling someone to shut their mouth, when all they did was repeat something they heard. You made your point with stating that the jews are lying and that they own the media. Beyond that, why dont you take an approach that would make people listen to your point of view more. I used to live in Japan and had many Iranian friends. They taught me many things about Iran that I never would have learned while living in the US. But, they were inteligent enough to speak to me in a way that did not make me hate them. Even when it was something that would normally hurt my feelings. Your approach makes people want to take an opposing side because they dont like you, not your views as much as how you present them. I dont know why I wasted any time on this thread. But, I hope you never wonder why you get the responses you do from people. All of us are good at different things. I beleive you know a lot about the world. But you dont seem to know anything about PR. Good luck to you.

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## Teabagger

> is that you tbagger?


Yea its me. :LOL:  Just my small play on sarcasam. As far as Abawhobugwho being smarter than Bush...well it appears he is...as well as smarter than all the other leaders of the world. He has managed to address the UN and convince the world body Iran has no offensive plans against any country there. Iran only supports "just" causes and Israel is the only barrier to a peaceful Mideast.

I'm to the point of not caring much anymore. From my view Iran will continue to support groups whose aim is the destruction of Israel and the terrorization of the US and other Western countries. They will continue to build up conventional arms, and develop or aquire nuke weapons. Then they will become blatantly overtly aggressive and hostile. At that point you all will be saying, "fvck, how did it get this far?" "Where was the UN, the US, etc...while this was going on in plain view for any idiot to see and understand?" But ya know what...at that time the only recourse will be military action, forced on the West by Irans quest for complete domination of the Mideast and leader of the global jihad. Mark my words, at that time the conflict will go nuclear...it will be regional, but it will devastate and shock the world because they never get it till its too late. I find it sad...I really do. The so-called leaders are gutless, selfcentered, egocentric fools, or outright criminals, take your pick, the end result is the same.

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## singern

The pure hypocrisy, and Irony of this speech was mind numbing. 

When the Iranian (Persian) people have freedom, when they have a say in there government and politics, when they can walk the street without fear of being beaten by "morality police". When woman can drive, vote, speak without being punished. When there leaders stop supporting and financing international terror........

Then perhaps the Iranian jackass can complain about lack of justice, dignity, freedom from oppression, and dictator sanctioned tyranny. 
In the meantime he is just another brain dead meat puppet, who desperately needs an acid enema

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## J.S.N.

sense when does the world sympathize with the US? :Hmmmm:

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## Phreak101

> sense when does the world sympathize with the US?


Reread what I wrote...

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## zodiac666

if i lived in israel i would do my best to ensure that iran doesnt get nukes by any means necessary. i firmly believe that if iran gets nukes, they will give them to hezbollah or some other terrorist group that wont hesitate to use them on israel. 

i think israel will use nuclear power to make sure iran doesnt become a nuclear power.

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## Phreak101

> I am not personaly sympathizing with Iran. But I dont think its been proven that they want nuclear weapons and thats why I dont support any military action against them.
> 
> If we dont even put a sentance on a criminal before he has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Why should we violate other sovereign countries for less?


Isolationism with lots of weaponry, that's all I want. I'll let you be, but don't f*ck with me or you'll be sorry. "I speak softly, but I carry a big stick"

I agree Johan, let them be, just stay the f away from me.

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## humungus88

All I can say is that if we invade Iran as Israel has planned for us (just like Iraq) be prepared to start riding a bicycle everywhere, or be prepared for WWIII.

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## Phreak101

> All I can say is that if we invade Iran as Israel has planned for us (just like Iraq) be prepared to start riding a bicycle everywhere, or be prepared for WWIII.


Why would Israel have us invade Iraq? Iraq was Sunni dominated, while Iran is Shi'ite dominated. Why disrupt two powers keeping themselves in check?

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## humungus88

> Why would Israel have us invade Iraq? Iraq was Sunni dominated, while Iran is Shi'ite dominated. Why disrupt two powers keeping themselves in check?


Iraq was considered a threat to Israel controlling the middle east.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

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## humungus88

President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has launched a robust defence of Iran's nuclear programme. 
During a visit by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Mr Chavez warned the world of dire consequences if his ally was attacked by the US. 

Mr Chavez has threatened to cut off oil supplies to the US if provoked. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5358486.stm

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## tiger909

> if i lived in israel i would do my best to ensure that iran doesnt get nukes by any means necessary. i firmly believe that if iran gets nukes, they will give them to hezbollah or some other terrorist group that wont hesitate to use them on israel. 
> 
> i think israel will use nuclear power to make sure iran doesnt become a nuclear power.



pakistan is much more unstable than iran, and they have done no such thing.... countries dont want nukes for weapons purposes, theyre too powerful to be any good in war...they want them for respect and bargaining tools....look what they did for pakistan, usa loves them all of a sudden

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## Kärnfysikern

> Then they will become blatantly overtly aggressive and hostile. At that point you all will be saying, "fvck, how did it get this far?" "Where was the UN, the US, etc...while this was going on in plain view for any idiot to see and understand?" But ya know what...at that time the only recourse will be military action, forced on the West by Irans quest for complete domination of the Mideast and leader of the global jihad. Mark my words, at that time the conflict will go nuclear...it will be regional, but it will devastate and shock the world because they never get it till its too late. I find it sad...I really do. The so-called leaders are gutless, selfcentered, egocentric fools, or outright criminals, take your pick, the end result is the same.


Well if it was in plain view for all to se it would be like you say. But if not even the weapons inspectors can find one single evidence of a weapons program it makes it hard to justify anything. 

But Id much rather se the west forced into a confrontation by a hostile Iran than the west chrushing a sovereing country on a hunch without proof. 
Iran is ****ed up, the leaders is ****ed up, they talk more shit than 15 drunk hillbillies put togheter. But that is not reason enough to waste thousands after thousands of lifes on both sides.

Look at the alternatives here. Bush and his cronies are presenting this as a:

_Either we go to war now or there will 100% surely be a nuclear exchange in the future_-kind of situation

But in reality it is a:

_In the future Iran just might get nuclear weapons but we cant find one single shred of evidence that they are trying to build weapons. We still want to go in and bomb them because they are uggly and muslim_-kind of situation

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## Phreak101

> Look at the alternatives here. Bush and his cronies are presenting this as a:
> 
> _Either we go to war now or there will 100% surely be a nuclear exchange in the future_-kind of situation
> 
> But in reality it is a:
> 
> _In the future Iran just might get nuclear weapons but we cant find one single shred of evidence that they are trying to build weapons. We still want to go in and bomb them because they are uggly and muslim_-kind of situation


This attitude is necessary to protect U.S. Citizens. Osama bin Laden has already promised that nuclear attacks WILL happen in the United States by materials smuggled in through Mexico. We now have Iran potentially building nuclear weapons, OR possibly supplying terrorists with the materials needed to build nuclear weapons while maintaining a shroud of "nuclear power". The U.S. is an open target, Al Qaida and the like are not..the only way to threaten the core of these cells is to threaten the countries that will potentially supply them with what they need to accomplish their threats.

If I had a choice between 100,000 American lives and 10,000 Iranian lives, the choice is clear. With all the intel and threats being put towards my country, you're damn right we're gonna swing our weight around to insure that very few of them actually come to light. If this requires a stiff upper lip on terms set forth by the U.S., so be it.

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## Kärnfysikern

> This attitude is necessary to protect U.S. Citizens. Osama bin Laden has already promised that nuclear attacks WILL happen in the United States by materials smuggled in through Mexico. We now have Iran potentially building nuclear weapons, OR possibly supplying terrorists with the materials needed to build nuclear weapons while maintaining a shroud of "nuclear power". The U.S. is an open target, Al Qaida and the like are not..the only way to threaten the core of these cells is to threaten the countries that will potentially supply them with what they need to accomplish their threats.
> 
> If I had a choice between 100,000 American lives and 10,000 Iranian lives, the choice is clear. With all the intel and threats being put towards my country, you're damn right we're gonna swing our weight around to insure that very few of them actually come to light. If this requires a stiff upper lip on terms set forth by the U.S., so be it.


It still doesnt justify invasion just because of a hunch. I mean the same was probably said about pakistan before they went nuclear and they havent yet sold any weapons to any shady organisation. 

I dont se any reason to belive Iran would supply any terrorist organisation with nuclear weapons. They know it would be suicide. If Iran gets nuclear weapons and suddenly a terrorist organisation blows up new york they are dead.

I think its more imporant to get india, pakistan and israel to sign the NPT to ensure the future safety of the world.

Looking back now, was it worth it to invade iraq based on a WMD hunch? Will it be worth going into a 10 times worse war over a hunch that is even weaker?

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## Phreak101

Not INVASION, that I don't agree with. But strong sactions, as well as a guilty until proven innocent attitude is what's necessary. They are f*cking with the big boy in the class and expecting immunity from the rest of the world. The United States, albeit unjustified in many of our foreign actions, is still a MAJOR powerhouse both economically and militarily in the world, and we will not sit idly by and let our country be attacked and not lash out at those that are assisting in terrorism.

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## humungus88

> MAJOR powerhouse both economically


Not anymore, just ask the House of Rothschild. China could wipe out our economy tomorrow if it deemed fit.




> and militarily in the world


Not against guerilla warfare, sorry to say (as the death toll in Iraq rises)

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## zodiac666

> pakistan is much more unstable than iran, and they have done no such thing.... countries dont want nukes for weapons purposes, theyre too powerful to be any good in war...they want them for respect and bargaining tools....look what they did for pakistan, usa loves them all of a sudden


USA and pakistan are false allies, pakistan could choose to help us alot with afghanistan just by not letting the terrorists use their country as a safehaven. the USA and pakistan hate eachother, we just pretend to be friends for some reason.

iran has already given hezbollah some fairly advanced weapons which they used on israel. if you see how much most of the muslims in that area hate israel, i dont think they would hesitate to nuke them. 

are you saying you dont think that alot of these muslim extremests would not use a nuke on israel even if they had access to one?

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## Phreak101

> Not anymore, just ask the House of Rothschild. China could wipe out our economy tomorrow if it deemed fit.


Where are you getting this info from? The ministry of finance?  :Hmmmm:  The dollar is still the currency to beat, bar none. Our GDP is still one of the highest in the world, not to mention on a per citizen basis we still out match them, and they have over 1 billion people!




> Not against guerilla warfare, sorry to say (as the death toll in Iraq rises)


All the guerilla warfare in the world won't protect anyone from Shock and Awe...bring it. Besides, Iraq is not a war, it is an operation. We cannot fire unless fired upon. If this was war, there would be nothing left of Iraq.

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## humungus88

> Where are you getting this info from? The ministry of finance?  The dollar is still the currency to beat, bar none. Our GDP is still one of the highest in the world, not to mention on a per citizen basis we still out match them, and they have over 1 billion people!
> 
> 
> 
> All the guerilla warfare in the world won't protect anyone from Shock and Awe...bring it. Besides, Iraq is not a war, it is an operation. We cannot fire unless fired upon. If this was war, there would be nothing left of Iraq.


Last time I checked it was called TWAT: The War Against Terror

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## mcpeepants

> Not INVASION, that I don't agree with. But strong sactions, as well as a guilty until proven innocent attitude is what's necessary. They are f*cking with the big boy in the class and expecting immunity from the rest of the world. The United States, albeit unjustified in many of our foreign actions, is still a MAJOR powerhouse both economically and militarily in the world, and we will not sit idly by and let our country be attacked and not lash out at those that are assisting in terrorism.


Guilty until proven innocent is the type of thinking that got us into Iraq. Strong sanctions would only hurt the people of Iran just like it did to the people of Iraq. The only thing those sanctions were good at was causing the deaths of thousands of Iraqi children.

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## Prada

> Why would Israel have us invade Iraq? Iraq was Sunni dominated, while Iran is Shi'ite dominated. Why disrupt two powers keeping themselves in check?


YEs Iraq is Shiite dominated somewhere around 60%. They just were not in power due to Saddam. If you could just imagine the power vacuum that was created in Iraq and especially Afghanistan. Iran pre-911 had no allies on it's western border with Saddam and the sunnies nor the eastern border with the Taliban which were Pakistan backed. Now with Saddam and Taliban somewhat gone it left a void for Iran to fill. Iran could not be happier, the dirty work was all done by the US for them. Throw India into the equation, they are interested in having a weaker but not totally destabalized Pakistan. Weaker by Pakistan having diminished influence in Afghanistan and regional influence but not destabilized that the mullahs come in power. Russia has it's interest, Tajikistan, Turkemenistan, Kazachistan on top of the powerhouses, Iran and Pakistan. So everyone has a stake in this





> USA and pakistan are false allies, pakistan could choose to help us alot with afghanistan just by not letting the terrorists use their country as a safehaven. the USA and pakistan hate eachother, we just pretend to be friends for some reason.
> 
> iran has already given hezbollah some fairly advanced weapons which they used on israel. if you see how much most of the muslims in that area hate israel, i dont think they would hesitate to nuke them. 
> 
> are you saying you dont think that alot of these muslim extremests would not use a nuke on israel even if they had access to one?



US and Pakistan do not hate each other. The citizens do, just like almost all of the rest of the world. Musharraf is in a precarious situation. So see that, Musharraf had 3 attempts to his life for his "pro" US stance. If Musharraf is to friendly with the US he will end up getting killed, literally or politically. If Musharraf is killed a Mullah will attain power and Pakistan will go from quasi-friendly state to hostile nation. Hence it's a delicate situation. There is also more collaboration then meets the eye. Pakistan govt on the facade has an anti US stance to appease it's domestic audience but reality is there is much collaboration(Im almost certain) up to a certain limit, using covert and stealth operations.

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## zodiac666

> There is also more collaboration then meets the eye. Pakistan govt on the facade has an anti US stance to appease it's domestic audience but reality is there is much collaboration(Im almost certain) up to a certain limit, using covert and stealth operations.


im sure there is some collaboration, but there needs to be a lot more. the biggest problem in afthanistan is still the fact that the terrorists can hide in pakistan without worry, come over and set up some ied's and go right back to pakistan. 

you are right though, it is a very tough situation because if the leader of pakistan shows too much support for us he will probably be killed.

when i was startioned near the afghani/paki border we fired quite a few heavy artillary rounds into pakistan. our radar can pinpoint the POO (Point of Orgin) of emeny rockets very accurately and of course we fire back no matter what. it doesnt matter if the rockets are fired from another country or in a village we will launch 10x the firepower right back at them. this may not seem right to some but if a village is letting the terrorists shoot rockets at our base and try to kill us, they are also somewhat guilty. also mabye it will help cut down people supporting the terrorists.

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## Phreak101

> Guilty until proven innocent is the type of thinking that got us into Iraq. Strong sanctions would only hurt the people of Iran just like it did to the people of Iraq. The only thing those sanctions were good at was causing the deaths of thousands of Iraqi children.


What's your vote then?

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## Phreak101

> Last time I checked it was called TWAT: The War Against Terror


C'mon read between the lines of that catchy rheotrical play on words...the "War on Terror" is a way for the Bush administration to administer military authority with out actually "declaring" a war. It keeps people's minds off the fact that we have soldiers deployed everywhere in the middle east accomplishing squat.

We are still a powerhouse  :Evil2:

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## mcpeepants

> What's your vote then?


Without propaganda and overhyping we would have a Iranian nuclear "crisis." My solution, the US and Iranian need to sitdown and have unconditional talks to set aside their grievances and eventually bring back diplomatic relations.

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## IronFreakX

Iran supports/funds hamas, a terrorist group, but I guess thats fine  :Aajack:

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## Teabagger

> Iran supports/funds hamas, a terrorist group, but I guess thats fine


They are freedom fighters...fighting to free their people from the 21st century and return them to the good ole days of 900 A.D. where a man was a true woman beating man. When a man ruled his castle, or tent, in the instance, with and iron fist...and sword. Where you could hack someone to death for the slightest perceived slight. Where horses were more valuable than your women. Where if you were running a little tight on your budget you could sell off a daughter or two to make a few $$. 

These groups only want to return their people to the days of enlightenment and out of the darkness and dispair of the 21st centruy.

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## tiger909

> They are freedom fighters...fighting to free their people from the 21st century and return them to the good ole days of 900 A.D. where a man was a true woman beating man. When a man ruled his castle, or tent, in the instance, with and iron fist...and sword. Where you could hack someone to death for the slightest perceived slight. Where horses were more valuable than your women. Where if you were running a little tight on your budget you could sell off a daughter or two to make a few $$. 
> 
> These groups only want to return their people to the days of enlightenment and out of the darkness and dispair of the 21st centruy.


i have to disagree w/ u there on that one...lebanese women are treated very well by men in lebanon

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## zOaib

> They are freedom fighters...fighting to free their people from the 21st century and return them to the good ole days of 900 A.D. where a man was a true woman beating man. When a man ruled his castle, or tent, in the instance, with and iron fist...and sword. Where you could hack someone to death for the slightest perceived slight. Where horses were more valuable than your women. Where if you were running a little tight on your budget you could sell off a daughter or two to make a few $$. 
> 
> These groups only want to return their people to the days of enlightenment and out of the darkness and dispair of the 21st centruy.


or probably to the era where muslim rule flourished with education and technology without capitalism and usuary as business incentives , and giving power to the people and not the governments, i think your history book is missing a few pages here n there .  :Wink/Grin:  u go back to the tent era , Where actually they were lifted out off .

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## Phreak101

> or probably to the era where muslim rule flourished with education and technology without capitalism and usuary as business incentives , and giving power to the people and not the governments, i think your history book is missing a few pages here n there .  u go back to the tent era , Where actually they were lifted out off .


They were lifted out of it by the Greeks, who were a capitalistic republic/monarchy (depending on the time period). Specifically the Macedonians if I'm not mistaken.

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## Logan13

> Without propaganda and overhyping we would have a Iranian nuclear "crisis." My solution, the US and Iranian need to sitdown and have unconditional talks to set aside their grievances and eventually bring back diplomatic relations.


the Iranian leadership believes that all non-muslims should be wiped off of the Earth. Starting with the Israelis' and on to the US. Why in bloody hell would you want to sit down with anyone that has said such things, especially publicly? That's makes no sense. You are probably for sitting down and talking to and only giving "therapy" to child rapists' instead of prison time as well aren't you?!

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## Logan13

> I am not personaly sympathizing with Iran. But I dont think its been proven that they want nuclear weapons and thats why I dont support any military action against them.
> 
> If we dont even put a sentance on a criminal before he has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Why should we violate other sovereign countries for less?


because if you are wrong it will be devastating to many. Hitler was originally given the same latitude by the peace loving europeans. They did not figure out that they were wrong until the Nazi's were riding through their capitals in tanks. A little too late to say the least........

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## mcpeepants

> the Iranian leadership believes that all non-muslims should be wiped off of the Earth. Starting with the Israelis' and on to the US. Why in bloody hell would you want to sit down with anyone that has said such things, especially publicly? That's makes no sense. You are probably for sitting down and talking to and only giving "therapy" to child rapists' instead of prison time as well aren't you?!


If that were true, they would start by killing all the non-muslims in Iran. Iran wants and need diplomatic relations with the US if it wants to develop their countries infrastructure.

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## Kärnfysikern

> because if you are wrong it will be devastating to many. Hitler was originally given the same latitude by the peace loving europeans. They did not figure out that they were wrong until the Nazi's were riding through their capitals in tanks. A little too late to say the least........


Well that was a totaly different situation and its not like europe was peace loving back than. More like war tired after ww1. Either way Iran is not 1/1000 the threat nazi germany was. Its like comparing a fly to a hawk.

How about egypt? They announced a few days ago that they are going to pursue nuclear power and the american ambasador in egypt came out and said you guys support egypts peacefull nuclear program. Arent they a semi unsafe player to be allowed nuclear power? Pakistan isnt the most stable of countries and can get a muslim fanatic leader anytime. Why are those 2 countries less of a threat then Iran?

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## Kärnfysikern

> If that were true, they would start by killing all the non-muslims in Iran. Iran wants and need diplomatic relations with the US if it wants to develop their countries infrastructure.


Something ignored by most.... Those 25 000 jews in Iran doesnt seem to be in danger of beeing part of any final solution. (Im not denying that they are discriminated against though).


According to wikipedia there is also over 60 000 hindus and close to three million christians in Iran.

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## Phreak101

> Something ignored by most.... Those 25 000 jews in Iran doesnt seem to be in danger of beeing part of any final solution.


Neither did the 3-5 million in Europe prior to 1939.

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## Kärnfysikern

> Neither did the 3-5 million in Europe prior to 1939.


The nazi party was openly anti semite from the start. They where claiming the jews in germany was responsible for the decline in germany economy and blamed the jews for the loss of ww1. They destroyed all jewish buisness by fining them to hell for the "damage" they had done to germany.

The irani leaders are not blaming the persian jews for anything. They direct there comments toward israel. Do you have any quote where the ayatholla or ahmajedinad is claiming the persian jews are a problem to Iran and should be forcefully removed? 

These comparisons betwen iran and nazi germany is getting quite ridicilous.

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## zOaib

> They were lifted out of it by the Greeks, who were a capitalistic republic/monarchy (depending on the time period). Specifically the Macedonians if I'm not mistaken.


u r correct , but i wouldnt say that greek literature did that it was the Quran that advocated the Muslims to seek out worldly knowledge , hence the muslims preserved the knowledge from the greeks adding theirs into it along the way of science and literature . So islam lifted them up and they embraced the world through it .

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## Flagg

Terrorists is just what the big army calls the little army but you cant call Al Quada or Hamas the little army because it doesn't make them seem anywhere near as evil to people who live in the West. 

The West is extremely paranoid right now..I think what this thread is, is there good solid justification to be paranoid?

All i know is "terrorists" are extremely patient..the West is not and i think it's that paranoia that would kickstart a something horrific.

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## Logan13

> Well that was a totaly different situation and its not like europe was peace loving back than. More like war tired after ww1. Either way Iran is not 1/1000 the threat nazi germany was. Its like comparing a fly to a hawk.


more like a fly with a nuke.............

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## Kärnfysikern

> more like a fly with a nuke.............


a fly you suspect want to build a nuke but fortunaly the fly doesnt have the facilities needed to get uranium or plutonium  :Bbiwin:

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## Phreak101

> a fly you suspect want to build a nuke but fortunaly the fly doesnt have the facilities needed to get uranium or plutonium


Not yet! But that fly is working on getting the materials for "nuclear power" and refusing alternatives to getting it other than enriching it in it's own country....hmmm  :Bs:

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## singern

> a fly you suspect want to build a nuke but fortunaly the fly doesnt have the facilities needed to get uranium or plutonium



This fly has spent the last years collecting, building, designing, and producing the necessary materials. As we saw a few months ago they are now able to produce and enrich the needed materials.

We know Ahmejanedidanadinjad is working to get a bomb, this is a given, the question is - should we wait patiently until the fly has a bomb, or do we swat his insect ass now....

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## Kärnfysikern

> Not yet! But that fly is working on getting the materials for "nuclear power" and refusing alternatives to getting it other than enriching it in it's own country....hmmm


But there is no evidence that the fly has any of the facilities needed to acctualy build a weapon....





> This fly has spent the last years collecting, building, designing, and producing the necessary materials. As we saw a few months ago they are now able to produce and enrich the needed materials.
> 
> We know Ahmejanedidanadinjad is working to get a bomb, this is a given, the question is - should we wait patiently until the fly has a bomb, or do we swat his insect ass now....


Well yes the fly can enrichen to 5% tops, no where close to the 90% required to do anything nasty with that uranium. No facilities to enrichen to 90% and no facilities to produce plutonium. I say wait and se if the fly becomes anoying....

No matter what there motives are everything they are doing right now is what they have the right to do according to the NPT.

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## Prada

It seems many are fast to point out the mistakes made 60 years ago yet not many if any is quick to point out one blunder after another just a few years ago.

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## Logan13

> It seems many are fast to point out the mistakes made 60 years ago yet not many if any is quick to point out one blunder after another just a few years ago.


History does repeat itself, we learn from past mistakes. We are discussing the possiblity that a nation that funds terrorism throughout the world, one that has publicly stated that they wish to rid the world of all non-believers, now wishes to get nuclear weapons. How much clearer does it need to be? Are you saying that simply because they have not _admitted_ that they wish to sell this technology to terrorists that there is not enough evidence to warrant the world stopping them before they have the chance? That is simply naive. Do not confuse the issue prada.

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## Phreak101

> But there is no evidence that the fly has any of the facilities needed to acctualy build a weapon....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well yes the fly can enrichen to 5% tops, no where close to the 90% required to do anything nasty with that uranium. No facilities to enrichen to 90% and no facilities to produce plutonium. I say wait and se if the fly becomes anoying....
> 
> No matter what there motives are everything they are doing right now is what they have the right to do according to the NPT.


Over there in Sweden they may have time to wait and see, but I don't want to sit around and wait for Chicago or New York to be nuked, considering Osama has already promised an attack, to then take some action. I don't like pre-emptive, but I don't like sitting around with my thumb up my ass waiting for a punch either...

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## Prada

> History does repeat itself, we learn from past mistakes. We are discussing the possiblity that a nation that funds terrorism throughout the world, one that has publicly stated that they wish to rid the world of all non-believers, now wishes to get nuclear weapons. How much clearer does it need to be? Are you saying that simply because they have not _admitted_ that they wish to sell this technology to terrorists that there is not enough evidence to warrant the world stopping them before they have the chance? That is simply naive. Do not confuse the issue prada.



I can agree that we must prevent under any circumstances Iran from having nuclear weapons. Why Iran might want nukes is also something I can comprehend. However killing humans because we have a hunch is not justifiable. Do we kill human life because Ahmedinejad lashes out his diatribes? It still is not sanctioned. Do we suspect him of trying to acquire WMDs? Perhaps. Do we have concrete evidence and proof that that is what they are trying to do? Nope.




> History does repeat itself, we learn from past mistakes. We are discussing the possiblity that a nation that funds terrorism throughout the world....


Oddly enough this resembles Iraq. Doesnt seem to me like we learned anything whatsoever. Id sanction putting Iran under the microscope and using our established institutions to keep a close watch. Another problem is that some of our institutions(i.e Intelligence Agencies) failed miserably. An introspective analysis is much needed as well. What was done in Iraq is we destroyed stability and promoted fertile breeding ground for the growth of terrorism. I think we fail to realize how destructive the Iraq "experiment" was.

If terrorists want to destroy the US, they arent going to wait until they get Nukes. Theyll attack at any point with anything lethal if they can/could. Another issue is let the rest of the world deal with it's problems and Israel resolve it's own regional issues.

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## alphaman

> What if George Bush had said he wanted to "wipe China off the map". Would the world still sympathize with the U.S.? My guess is no, so why are corners of the world sympathizing with Iran?



Perfect example of how blind the world is. And I don't mean blind to what Iran is planning.

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## Phreak101

> Perfect example of how blind the world is. And I don't mean blind to what Iran is planning.


Then what do you mean?

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## Logan13

> I can agree that we must prevent under any circumstances Iran from having nuclear weapons. Why Iran might want nukes is also something I can comprehend. However killing humans because we have a hunch is not justifiable. Do we kill human life because Ahmedinejad lashes out his diatribes? It still is not sanctioned. Do we suspect him of trying to acquire WMDs? Perhaps. Do we have concrete evidence and proof that that is what they are trying to do? Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> Oddly enough this resembles Iraq. Doesnt seem to me like we learned anything whatsoever. Id sanction putting Iran under the microscope and using our established institutions to keep a close watch. Another problem is that some of our institutions(i.e Intelligence Agencies) failed miserably. An introspective analysis is much needed as well. What was done in Iraq is we destroyed stability and promoted fertile breeding ground for the growth of terrorism. I think we fail to realize how destructive the Iraq "experiment" was.
> 
> If terrorists want to destroy the US, they arent going to wait until they get Nukes. Theyll attack at any point with anything lethal if they can/could. Another issue is let the rest of the world deal with it's problems and Israel resolve it's own regional issues.


I do not want to send in troops to Iran on a hunch, even a very, very good hunch. But what I would be in favor of is sending covert ops into the country to destroy all of their nuclear infrastructure. We do not need 100,000 troops to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. If they see this as an act of war, than so be it. In my mind, they have already made their goal known. I do not want to hold a whole countries' population responsible for what their lunatic leader says, but if they are not for getting rid of him........we must. So, let them bring it on.

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## Prada

> I do not want to send in troops to Iran on a hunch, even a very, very good hunch. But what I would be in favor of is sending covert ops into the country to destroy all of their nuclear infrastructure. We do not need 100,000 troops to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. If they see this as an act of war, than so be it. In my mind, they have already made their goal known. I do not want to hold a whole countries' population responsible for what their lunatic leader says, but if they are not for getting rid of him........we must. So, let them bring it on.


Agreed, I can live with that. Destroying their infrastructure would be justified especially if they lied. I am skeptical as their motives of having nuclear energy and Im not going to be BSd to for "energy purposes". So yes I can see their charade and see through their ulterior motive hidden behind their guise. It's time to play hardball with them to get the point across and to force them to comply(i.e weapons inspectors and IAEA. Lets keep a close eye on them and at the same time look for a viable solution, in other words getting rid of this "lunatic" for someone more moderate like Khatami was.

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## Phreak101

I like the unification of ideas between parties, good call logan.

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## Kärnfysikern

> I do not want to send in troops to Iran on a hunch, even a very, very good hunch. But what I would be in favor of is sending covert ops into the country to destroy all of their nuclear infrastructure. We do not need 100,000 troops to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. If they see this as an act of war, than so be it. In my mind, they have already made their goal known. I do not want to hold a whole countries' population responsible for what their lunatic leader says, but if they are not for getting rid of him........we must. So, let them bring it on.


Acctualy that would be a pretty good idea in my mind aswell. They have facilities spread over 100 of places though but it sure would be better than war.

I wonder if they would make a move towards iraq or throw missiles at israel if that happened though or if there bluff would have been called...

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## Chad B

> Without propaganda and overhyping we would have a Iranian nuclear "crisis." My solution, the US and Iranian need to sitdown and have unconditional talks to set aside their grievances and eventually bring back diplomatic relations.


Is this guy for real? 

Lets just sit down with Hitler and reason with him

Pee pee pants, these people are radical religious fanatics there is no reasoningThey long for the day to chop your head off, you infidel. 


About Iran nuclear power: 

You would be foolish if you think Israel would allow that. Israel has one of the strongest secret service and military in the world. They have a button to push and Iran is wiped off the face of the earth. A lot has changed since the 1st gulf war, now they have buttons to push that would destroy any old technology missile coming in from a retaliation from surrounding Moo-slem countries. 

If the time comes of Iran coming into nuclear power Israel will wipe them out. They are very educated people with far advanced weaponry, maybe second behind the US. They will do whatever necessary to keep alive even if it means saying FU to the liberal world and I believe they will succeed as foretold in scriptural prophesy.

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## Chad B

> Well that was a totaly different situation and its not like europe was peace loving back than. More like war tired after ww1. Either way Iran is not 1/1000 the threat nazi germany was. Its like comparing a fly to a hawk.
> 
> How about egypt? They announced a few days ago that they are going to pursue nuclear power and the american ambasador in egypt came out and said you guys support egypts peacefull nuclear program. Arent they a semi unsafe player to be allowed nuclear power? Pakistan isnt the most stable of countries and can get a muslim fanatic leader anytime. Why are those 2 countries less of a threat then Iran?



They are not and the US and/or Israel will take care of all of them in the near future. The US defeated Irack like lighting with no substantial causalities, it is the occupation were the causalities came in. It was historical how fast.

WWIII Very Very stupid, with what rocks? They all will be wiped out like stepping on ants.

Believe me something is going to happen, soon, I can feel it.

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## Chad B

> The nazi party was openly anti semite from the start. They where claiming the jews in germany was responsible for the decline in germany economy and blamed the jews for the loss of ww1. They destroyed all jewish buisness by fining them to hell for the "damage" they had done to germany.
> 
> The irani leaders are not blaming the persian jews for anything. They direct there comments toward israel. Do you have any quote where the ayatholla or ahmajedinad is claiming the persian jews are a problem to Iran and should be forcefully removed? 
> 
> These comparisons betwen iran and nazi germany is getting quite ridicilous.


Are you that delusional? They want to destroy Israel but not jews. I cant even comment on this stupid comment. The moo-slems have wanted to kill the jews since Isaac and Ishmael. This is a religious war. 

FYI.. In biblical terms Israel always meant the people as a whole, not an piece of ground. Only westerners separate jews from Israel. These moo-slems are still living in the stone ages. 

These people are very religious and there intentions are religion based. You can not relate nor comprehend there reasoning nor there purpose.

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## Chad B

> Neither did the 3-5 million in Europe prior to 1939.


 :Thumps Up:

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## Chad B

*bold...*




> Oddly enough this resembles Iraq. Doesnt seem to me like we learned anything whatsoever. Id sanction putting Iran under the microscope and using our established institutions to keep a close watch. *Sanctions dont work when Germany and France make deals on oil under the table Some of the reason for the Irack war. IMO* 
> 
> Another problem is that some of our institutions(i.e Intelligence Agencies) failed miserably. An introspective analysis is much needed as well. What was done in Iraq is we destroyed stability and promoted fertile breeding ground for the growth of terrorism. I think we fail to realize how destructive the Iraq "experiment" was. *Funny how there has been no major attack on USA soil since 911. Maybe if we werent over there, we would have been attacked several times on US soil. Seems likely 
> 
> When has a process of liberating a country been a breeze? If there is only a few that want freedomwell remember that bravehart movie, FREEDOMMMMMMM
> 
> I have heard that real-estate and the economy is higher in Irack than it ever has ever been. 
> *
> 
> If terrorists want to destroy the US, they arent going to wait until they get Nukes. Theyll attack at any point with anything lethal if they can/could. Another issue is let the rest of the world deal with it's problems and Israel resolve it's own regional issues.*It is more important for the terrorists to make Irack fail. They know that if they attacked the US right now that would bring the American people together and make us stronger in completing Iracky freedom. They dont want that, they want to be able to whip there women and children on the street corner when they want to.*

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## mcpeepants

> Is this guy for real? 
> 
> Lets just sit down with Hitler and reason with him
> 
> Pee pee pants, these people are radical religious fanatics there is no reasoningThey long for the day to chop your head off, you infidel. 
> 
> 
> About Iran nuclear power: 
> 
> ...


Doesn't seem your found of "Moo-slem" and the way you insult a whole religion shows your true character. It's easy to not have diplomacy if you don't think much of the otherside. 

With Israel poor performance against Hezballah, why do you think Iran would be different if you take account that it's 3 times the size of Iraq (more than twice the size of texas) with a populatation of about 70 million. Israel is in no danger from Iran by the shear fact that it's biggest ally is the US and that it has nukes, since the 1980s at the least. And if Iranian are such radical fanatics, why are there still 25000 jews there are Johan posted earlier?

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## Kärnfysikern

> Are you that delusional? They want to destroy Israel but not jews. I cant even comment on this stupid comment. The moo-slems have wanted to kill the jews since Isaac and Ishmael. This is a religious war.


Nope. Muslims and jews have historicaly been able to live in peace. Jews have been discriminated against under arab rule, but they have lived in peace.




> FYI.. In biblical terms Israel always meant the people as a whole, not an piece of ground. Only westerners separate jews from Israel. These moo-slems are still living in the stone ages.


SO why isnt the persian jews beeing slaughtered in the thousands?





> These people are very religious and there intentions are religion based. You can not relate nor comprehend there reasoning nor there purpose.


Yet you claim to know there reasoning and purpose perfectly.  :Hmmmm:

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## Kärnfysikern

> They are not and the US and/or Israel will take care of all of them in the near future. The US defeated Irack like lighting with no substantial causalities, it is the occupation were the causalities came in. It was historical how fast.
> 
> WWIII Very Very stupid, with what rocks? They all will be wiped out like stepping on ants.
> 
> Believe me something is going to happen, soon, I can feel it.


Well you are aware that USA has given the thumbs up for egyptian nuclear power? The us ambasador in egypt publicly gave his support to the idea. So I dont think the us and israel will "take care of all of them". I dont think US or europe should meddle anymore in that region we have done enough damage.

If a country feel they need nuclear power to drive there economy we should support it because its a hell of a lot better than if they build coal plants.

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## Kärnfysikern

> Is this guy for real? 
> 
> Lets just sit down with Hitler and reason with him
> 
> Pee pee pants, these people are radical religious fanatics there is no reasoningThey long for the day to chop your head off, you infidel.


The americans said the same about the russians during the cold war and the russians said the same about the americans during the same period. The germans claimed the russians where monsters during ww2. People fall for propaganda as easily today as they did back then.

Comparing ahmajinad(or how the hell its spelled) to hitler is like comparing a school child to jack the ripper. Hitler had the intent and the means to do whatever he wished. Amhawhatever is a iranian puppet that talks alot but cant do nothing.





> About Iran nuclear power: 
> 
> You would be foolish if you think Israel would allow that. Israel has one of the strongest secret service and military in the world. They have a button to push and Iran is wiped off the face of the earth. A lot has changed since the 1st gulf war, now they have buttons to push that would destroy any old technology missile coming in from a retaliation from surrounding Moo-slem countries.


Iran has the full right to get nuclear powers if they want to, they have signed the NPT. They dont have right to nuclear weapons, but they have every right in the world to build nuclear power, just like all other countries that has signed the NPT.

----------


## Chad B

> Doesn't seem your found of "Moo-slem" and the way you insult a whole religion shows your true character. It's easy to not have diplomacy if you don't think much of the otherside. 
> 
> With Israel poor performance against Hezballah, why do you think Iran would be different if you take account that it's 3 times the size of Iraq (more than twice the size of texas) with a populatation of about 70 million. Israel is in no danger from Iran by the shear fact that it's biggest ally is the US and that it has nukes, since the 1980s at the least. And if Iranian are such radical fanatics, why are there still 25000 jews there are Johan posted earlier?


 :Bs:  

You know nothing of my character.

Why do you think no Major Moo-slem leaders have spoken out, because these terrorist are martyrs to them. 

*There should be an uprising of moo-slems against the killing. But instead the pope recites an old speech saying that true moo-slems are to be peaceful in their land (paraphrase) and what do they do? Yes, they put a death warrant out on him and march around with sighn that say KILL THE POPE.* 

YOU MY FRIEND ARE IN DENIAL. DONT YOU DARE JUDGE ME, I HAVE DONE NOTHING FOR YOU TO JUDGE MY CHARACTER BUT GIVE YOU MY OPINION AND MY TRUTH. TRUTH IS GOOD AND IF I DONT LIKE A RELIGON THAT IS OK, BUT DONT JUDGE ME WHEN THE TRUTH IS CLEAR. THE MOO-SLEM RELIGON IS EVIL, I HAVE READ THE CORAN AND IT SAYS TO KILL THE INFEDEL, WICH IS NON-MOOSLEMS. I SHOW RESPECT WHEN RESPECT IS CALLED FOR, AND THE MOO-SLEM RELIGON GETS NONE. 

YOU WANT TO BLAME AMERICA FOR ALL THE DEATHS IN IRACK, YOUR CHARACTER SUCKS! SEE HOW DOES IT FEEL? (Actual I dont judge you, just saying this so you can see from my point of view, it is all just thought and I would never hurt anybody, I would give my life up in a heartbeat to save others) WELL I BLAME THE MOOS-SLEM RELIGON FOR ALL THE DEATHS BECAUSE IT TEACHES HATE. TO THE MOO-SLEM WORLD WE ARE THE DEVIL AND WE MUST DIE, BUT YOU ARE TOO NAIVE TO SEE ALL OF THIS.

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## Surfstud18

It's just the end of the world about to happen

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## Surfstud18

Iran's nuclear arsenal is ready, and will impact the wworld as never before imagined

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## Surfstud18

The attack on 9/11 proved that islamic terrorists are willing to use their weapons against America on American soil!!! America and Israel will be forced to stop iran's nuclear production or gamble with the naional security of both nations

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## Chad B

> Doesn't seem your found of "Moo-slem" and the way you insult a whole religion shows your true character. It's easy to not have diplomacy if you don't think much of the otherside. 
> 
> With Israel poor performance against Hezballah, why do you think Iran would be different if you take account that it's 3 times the size of Iraq (more than twice the size of texas) with a populatation of about 70 million. Israel is in no danger from Iran by the shear fact that it's biggest ally is the US and that it has nukes, since the 1980s at the least. And if Iranian are such radical fanatics, why are there still 25000 jews there are Johan posted earlier?


Also I am not going to walk on egg shells like you liberals do. I say what I say and if you dont like me for it thats ok, but at least I am real. Unlike you liberals that need to be very cautious with your speech least you may upset there feelings

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## Surfstud18

hmmm

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## Surfstud18

I think the rise of terrorism in our world and the emerging crisis in the Middle East between Israel and Iran are part of a much bigger picture.......That of God's plan for the future and Israel and the entire world

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## Chad B

*bold*




> Nope. Muslims and jews have historicaly been able to live in peace. Jews have been discriminated against under arab rule, but they have lived in peace. *so have a lot of dogs and cats, historicaly they have been fighting longer than any two groups ever Abraham had two sons, one of his wife and the othe of his bond maid*
> 
> 
> 
> SO why isnt the persian jews beeing slaughtered in the thousands? *Because history has shown there is a time and a place. The jews lived free in Egypt for decades free, then were brought under slavery. Jews lied free in Babylon then were mass slaughtered. the list goes on and on, there is a time and a place. The jews lived in germany and the surounding free, then killed by hittler, and yes it is very relivant.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you claim to know there reasoning and purpose perfectly.  *Do I? thats what YOU say*

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## Surfstud18

The highest honor in Islam is to die a martyr killing Christians and Jews. The one who does this awakes in an Islamic heaven surrounded by seventy virgins

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## Surfstud18

What is the point of having free speech if you have nothing to say?

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## Chad B

*bold*




> The americans said the same about the russians during the cold war and the russians said the same about the americans during the same period. The germans claimed the russians where monsters during ww2. People fall for propaganda as easily today as they did back then.
> 
> *People get more extreme when they are doing gods work so it is in no way like Russia. This has to do with religion, not economics! THEY WILL CHOP YOUR HEAD OFF WHILE YOU ARE REASONING WITH THEM, IN THE NAME OF GOD!* 
> 
> Comparing ahmajinad(or how the hell its spelled) to hitler is like comparing a school child to jack the ripper. Hitler had the intent and the means to do whatever he wished. Amhawhatever is a iranian puppet that talks alot but cant do nothing. * School child*  *He had a convention, all experts to come and prove the holocaust is a myth! He is Hitler and he speaks for the mass majority of moo-slems. Only time will tell*

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## Chad B

> The highest honor in Islam is to die a martyr killing Christians and Jews. The one who does this awakes in an Islamic heaven surrounded by seventy virgins



*TRUE*

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## Surfstud18

" I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exhalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together" _Martin Luther King_

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## Kärnfysikern

> so have a lot of dogs and cats, historicaly they have been fighting longer than any two groups ever Abraham had two sons, one of his wife and the othe of his bond maid


Well they have been waiting for a few thousand years.




> Because history has shown there is a time and a place. The jews lived free in Egypt for decades free, then were brought under slavery. Jews lied free in Babylon then were mass slaughtered. the list goes on and on, there is a time and a place. The jews lived in germany and the surounding free, then killed by hittler, and yes it is very relivant.


Egypt? are you talking about the bibel story? In that case you should know there is no proof whatsoever that the jews where ever slaves in egypt. 




> Do I? thats what YOU say


No, you are the one that claims for sure that you know Iran will build nuclear weapons and will use them. I am just saying that I dont buy into the hype, that there is NO evidence whatsoever for a nuclear weapons program and that we should discuss this for a long time since they are years from beeing able to build nuclear weapons.

You are the one claiming you know what they plan and intend, yet you at the same time claim they are incomprehensible.

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## Kärnfysikern

> The highest honor in Islam is to die a martyr killing Christians and Jews. The one who does this awakes in an Islamic heaven surrounded by seventy virgins


bullshit. We have several muslims on this board that can rip that claim to pieces so I will let them do it. But it is complete and utter bullshit.

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## Surfstud18

" It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics " _George Washington_ Reading that quote made me realize why we are here in American we broke away from Englad for Religion so we can have a nation under God.

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## Surfstud18

The most interesting thing about this trend is to observe who is failing to defend us against this threat to freedom of speech and thought: the left, which used to at least pretend that it stood for freedom of expression against the oppressive forces of traditional religion. The lesson we’re learning now is that, in an ironic twist, it is only the American right that has the will and the nerve to stand up for the Enlightenment.

----------


## Surfstud18

The new enemies of Reason are not the enraged democrats who executed Socrates, the Christian Zealots who persecuted philosophers of heliocentricity (sp), or the Nazis who burned books. No, they are a pampered and scared Western public that caves to barbarism — dwarves who sit on the shoulders of dead giants, and believe that their present exalted position is somehow related to their own cowardly sense of accommodation

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## Surfstud18

Just think: Put on an opera in today’s Germany, and have it shut down, not by Nazis, Communists, or Kings, but by the simple fear of Islamic fanatics

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## Kärnfysikern

> People get more extreme when they are doing gods work so it is in no way like Russia. This has to do with religion, not economics! THEY WILL CHOP YOUR HEAD OFF WHILE YOU ARE REASONING WITH THEM, IN THE NAME OF GOD!


And during the cold war the same was said about those godless, atheist russians, they have no god, completely crazy, you cant reason with them, they will chop your head off and piss on the good bible blah blah. Atheists are the worst scum on the planet, never trust a man without a god.
Turns out the russians wherent so bad after all.

And offcourse the russians belived the same shit about americans, those capitalist barbarians would sell there mother and kill there own children to make a extra dollar. No culture and no honor just a bunch of crazy savages.




> School child He had a convention, all experts to come and prove the holocaust is a myth! He is Hitler and he speaks for the mass majority of moo-slems. Only time will tell


So what?? Claiming the holocaust didnt happen and nuking a country is two different things. I dont care one bit about his belife or non belife in the holocaust. What I am saying is that he is no hitler because:

a. He isnt building concentration camps to gas jews.
b. He isnt invanding his neightbooring countries to create living space for his people.
c. He doesnt have the worlds best technology(like germany did during ww2.
d. He doesnt posses controll of a army, navy and airforce that is a threat to any western country.

The difference betwen him and hitler is that hitler could back up his word. Iran cant, they are nothing, the moment they do something stupid that country will cease to exist. Not even hitler would have been stupid enough to do anything with those odds.

Hitler and Stalin where crazy people that could wield alot of power. Ahmajineblahblah is a puppet president that has NO controll over anything important since the ayatholla runs the show.

----------


## Surfstud18

I’m not Catholic but I am a Christian and I am offended by Muslims shooting nuns in the back in Somalia and raping and killing little Christian girls in Indonesia. In fact I am so offended I am declaring a “fatwar” against all Muslims overseas. For every Christian who is killed, a Muslim city will be bombed to rubble - starting with Teheran. We must take the battle to the infidels. Kill them all and let *I AM I AM* sort them out.

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## Surfstud18

Why is the Pope being left hanging out to dry by the leaders of the so-called “Free World”? Not a one has stood up and defended him? I'm trying to figure it out

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## Surfstud18

Pope Benedict is going to go ahead with the trip to Turkey, he will be surrounded by millions of angry, easily offended Muslims who are already boiling mad at him and the rest of the world in general. If anything at all happens to the Pope during this visit, there will be hell to pay ... literally. If he even so much as gets a scatch on his head, it will be time to rain fire and brimstone down on the sorry bastards. They have been begging for a fight for decades now. This could be the match that lights the fuse that blows it all up.

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## Chad B

> Well they have been waiting for a few thousand years.
> 
> 
> 
> Egypt? are you talking about the bibel story? In that case you should know there is no proof whatsoever that the jews where ever slaves in egypt. 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are the one that claims for sure that you know Iran will build nuclear weapons and will use them. I am just saying that I dont buy into the hype, that there is NO evidence whatsoever for a nuclear weapons program and that we should discuss this for a long time since they are years from beeing able to build nuclear weapons.
> ...


My point is an atheist can not relate, nor comprehend this reasoning because he has not felt the POWER of faith or belief. Nothing is as strong as belief in a faith, to were people are being burned at the stake while singing sons to god with a smile. I can relate and understand because I have a strong faith and would do ANYTHING for my God, just so happens my god says love your neighbor and treat others as you would want to be treated.

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## Chad B

> bullshit. We have several muslims on this board that can rip that claim to pieces so I will let them do it. But it is complete and utter bullshit.


Westernized moo-slems have already given into the devil and need there heads chopped off. These are the needles in a haystack and dont speak for the moo-slem world

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## Surfstud18

*I concur*

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## Surfstud18

> Westernized moo-slems have already given into the devil and need there heads chopped off. These are the needles in a haystack and dont speak for the moo-slem world


Exactly, *When they bring their abominable behavior to America its time to break out the tar and feathers. Yall find a good sturdy tree - Ill bring the rope ...*

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## Surfstud18

Not only do we have to worry about this crap, We have grown men going into are school's and killing the children. What has this world come too.

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## Chad B

*bold...*




> And during the cold war the same was said about those godless, atheist russians, they have no god, completely crazy, you cant reason with them, they will chop your head off and piss on the good bible blah blah. Atheists are the worst scum on the planet, never trust a man without a god.
> Turns out the russians wherent so bad after all.
> 
> And offcourse the russians belived the same shit about americans, those capitalist barbarians would sell there mother and kill there own children to make a extra dollar. No culture and no honor just a bunch of crazy savages.
> 
> *The only difference is we have video footage, 911, the list goes on and on
> Pure proof
> 
> *
> ...

----------


## Kärnfysikern

Look you 2 need to stop bashing islam. This forum does not tollerate any kind of rascism. We have several well respected muslim members here that are not fanatic in any way. By condemning all muslims you act just as fanatic as those al qaida ****s waging war against the west.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> My point is an atheist can not relate, nor comprehend this reasoning because he has not felt the POWER of faith or belief. Nothing is as strong as belief in a faith, to were people are being burned at the stake while singing sons to god with a smile. I can relate and understand because I have a strong faith and would do ANYTHING for my God, just so happens my god says love your neighbor and treat others as you would want to be treated.


The quran preaches just about the same as the bible. Allah say the same things as your god. Both the bible and the quran is filled with messages of love and messages of violence.

If faith in god makes people do incredibly stupid things then maby we dont need those gods.

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## Kärnfysikern

> The most interesting thing about this trend is to observe who is failing to defend us against this threat to freedom of speech and thought: the left, which used to at least pretend that it stood for freedom of expression against the oppressive forces of traditional religion. The lesson were learning now is that, in an ironic twist, it is only the American right that has the will and the nerve to stand up for the Enlightenment.


The left and the right is both equaly inclined to step on the rights in order to gain more power. They are both filled with equal ammounts of shit. They just wrap it differently.

I guess the bush admin is a good champion for the enlightment  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
I mean its not like they are against verified science like evolution, the big bang theory and global warming. Its not like they force scientists to censur there statements, its not like they are trying to push religion into science class at schools.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Surfstud18

Agian like I said what's the point of having free speech if you have nothing to say! Now I'm not talking bad to all musliums understand that. Musliums have different braches like christian's do. Not all musliums are bad i'm diff attracted to some of them. But besides that Christians there is about 10 different kinds. Okay just for get abouttt ittt

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## Surfstud18

Exactly man

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## Kärnfysikern

> The only difference is we have video footage, 911, the list goes on and on
> Pure proof


So? Just because a small group of terrorists commit a atrocitie you are willing to claim all muslims would be happy to repeat it.

US soliders raped and killed inocent people during the vietnam war, you dont hear me saying all americans are rapists and murderers. German soliders comieted horrible atrocities during ww2, you dont hear me saying all germans are mass murderers. 

Christians used to burn "witches" on stakes, used to kill scientists. You dont hear me saying all christians are murderers.





> Yes a lot of this is true but times are a changing


Look at the military budget of Iran, they only spend twice as much as sweden. Its going to take a couple of hundrad years for them to even catch up to third rate military powers.

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## Surfstud18

The world is a crazy place can't understand everything no matter how hard we try. I love talking to people like you who think different then me cause it challenges me to ask myself. "Why do I believe what I do" You know I just hope it does the same for you it's not about changing nobody's mind but your own and knowing why you believe what you do and understanding why other believe what they do

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## Kärnfysikern

> The world is a crazy place can't understand everything no matter how hard we try. I love talking to people like you who think different then me cause it challenges me to ask myself. "Why do I believe what I do" You know I just hope it does the same for you it's not about changing nobody's mind but your own and knowing why you believe what you do and understanding why other believe what they do


Yupp I agree with that. :7up:

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## Surfstud18

[quote=johan]So? Just because a small group of terrorists commit a atrocitie you are willing to claim all muslims would be happy to repeat it.


_Christians used to burn "witches" on stakes, used to kill scientists. You dont hear me saying all christians are murderers._

*Excatly how i feel about Christians around that time as well. There is different Christians out there that abuse the bible and turn it around and not all us Christians are bad. I'm sure the same goes with the muslims*

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## givemethejuice

[QUOTE]


> So? Just because a small group of terrorists commit a atrocitie you are willing to claim all muslims would be happy to repeat it.



Johan, did you not watch the news coverage after 9-11 and see all the muslims around the world praising god and burning american flags after the attack. I am willing to bet you any of the people I saw on t.v. that day would have jumped at the chance to be on one of those planes and ramming them into the towers. :Icon Rolleyes:

----------


## Chad B

> Look you 2 need to stop bashing islam. This forum does not tollerate any kind of rascism. We have several well respected muslim members here that are not fanatic in any way. By condemning all muslims you act just as fanatic as those al qaida ****s waging war against the west.



I understand that there are people who claim they are Moslems that are peaceful. What I am saying is that the mass majority (non westernized) of them admonish those radicals which they call martyrs. 

I can pull dozens of verses from the Koran that says to kill infidels, yada, yada, yada You can pull NO scriptures out of the NEW testament (the Christian faith) which has any commands to us to kill human life PERIOD. Of coarse there are people who claim the Christian faith that do not adhere to that (like Bush), but that is besides the fact.

But I am done with this. You seem to have a heart and that is why you cant see it from my point of view, you want to believe in people and I respect you for that.  :Smilie:

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## Kärnfysikern

[QUOTE=givemethejuice]


> Johan, did you not watch the news coverage after 9-11 and see all the muslims around the world praising god and burning american flags after the attack. I am willing to bet you any of the people I saw on t.v. that day would have jumped at the chance to be on one of those planes and ramming them into the towers.


Yes offcourse the news teams mamaged to capture all of the over one billion muslims on this planet  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Even even a small minority of muslims where hardcore fanatic suicide bombers europe and america would be in ruins right now. Do the maths. 1 % of 1 billion is 10 million. Its probably more like 0.01%.

If you let media be the only way you makeup your mind about the middle east you will just swallow the propaganda. 
Muslims are todays communists. We se them everywhere and they are always planning to destroy the free world....
Fortunaly the world is sane enough not to let another Joseph McCarthy run around and harass people.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> I understand that there are people who claim they are Moslems that are peaceful. What I am saying is that the mass majority (non westernized) of them admonish those radicals which they call martyrs. 
> 
> I can pull dozens of verses from the Koran that says to kill infidels, yada, yada, yada You can pull NO scriptures out of the NEW testament (the Christian faith) which has any commands to us to kill human life PERIOD. Of coarse there are people who claim the Christian faith that do not adhere to that (like Bush), but that is besides the fact.
> 
> But I am done with this. You seem to have a heart and that is why you cant see it from my point of view, you want to believe in people and I respect you for that.


Yupp better to agree to disagree at this point  :Smilie:

----------


## Chad B

*bold...*

[QUOTE=johan]


> Yes offcourse the news teams mamaged to capture all of the over one billion muslims on this planet 
> 
> Even even a small minority of muslims where hardcore fanatic suicide bombers europe and america would be in ruins right now. Do the maths. 1 % of 1 billion is 10 million. Its probably more like 0.01%. *Again we are talking about the non westernized Moslems; the ones living in USA and Europe are mostly westernized. And yes there were bombs going off in Israel every day at one time and yes they were terrorized, now the Israelis are better at stopping them. Why? Because they are surrounded by non westernized Moslems. USA would have the same thing if its boarders were like Israel. 
> *


*Johan you seem like an open minded guy and I see you in a lot of threads understand some of the things the opposing side says. But in this issue I dont seem like youre trying to see it from my point of view. Words are funny and we have to try to understand the big picture of what the opposing side is saying, but you seem to be hard headed with this issue, like you are not even hearing what other people say. Or that you jump on there words without attempting to see the big picture of what they are saying. I on the other hand have said you are right and some of what you say is true. From most threads I have seen you in this is not the case, you remain very open-minded. Are you having a bad day or something?

Chad
*

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> [B]Johan you seem like an open minded guy and I see you in a lot of threads understand some of the things the opposing side says. But in this issue I dont seem like youre trying to see it from my point of view. Words are funny and we have to try to understand the big picture of what the opposing side is saying, but you seem to be hard headed with this issue, like you are not even hearing what other people say. Or that you jump on there words without attempting to see the big picture of what they are saying. I on the other hand have said you are right and some of what you say is true. From most threads I have seen you in this is not the case, you remain very open-minded. Are you having a bad day or something?
> 
> Chad


No not having a bad day at all allthough I have been notoriously cranky from alot of stress during the last weeks or so :/ So maby I am beeing a bit rude.

But in this case I just can not se how anyone can belive the majority of a group of people that consists of over one billion humans(the majority of those billion + people living in poor regions of the world, so not westernised)are terrorists or terrorists sympatisers.

I mean sure maby some of them cheere if shit happens in europe or america, but that doesnt mean they would blow themself up. What everything going on there and the religious leaders brainwashing them I cant blame them for cheering. They are brainwashed from the day they are born. Even the schools teach vile things over there.

But I have 100% belife in that the overwhelming majority of them are good, decent people that just want to live there lifes, put food on the table, create a good life for there kids and so on. Just like you and me, they just happen to be born in the wrong place.

Most of the iraqi's and irani's coming to sweden are decent people. I have never meet any imigrant that was rude towards me, on the contrary the imigrants that are in there 30's and older are tremendously polie. Cant say the same about the teens though.
But we have huge imigration into sweden(a higher % of imigrants than you have in the states), loads cooming from iraq now and loads from iran, and they are causing no problem.

Since Im not living in a country that is at any risk of terror attacks I might be biased. But I think the whole terrorist deal is WAY overblown. The world is facing much bigger issues that needs much more attention and this whole war on terror bullshit is draining resources and attention away from the real issues, the issues that will shape the future of civilisation. 

Energy, environment and helping the thirld world countries to catch up, that is where the focus should lie. If nothing else atleast out of self interest. Humanity has had it easy with the cheap and easy oil, now we need to take responsibility and make sure our kids and grandkids will have it just as easy but with a non polution cheap and abundant source of energy. I would hate it if our grandchildren look back at this day and age and ask themself why we didnt do anything, why we where blind and ignorant and why we didnt care.

One of the finest moment in human history is the marshall plan after world war 2. There is nothing preventing us from repeating that on another part of the world and everyone would profit.

----------


## mcpeepants

> You know nothing of my character.
> 
> Why do you think no Major Moo-slem leaders have spoken out, because these terrorist are martyrs to them. 
> 
> *There should be an uprising of moo-slems against the killing. But instead the pope recites an old speech saying that true moo-slems are to be peaceful in their land (paraphrase) and what do they do? Yes, they put a death warrant out on him and march around with sighn that say KILL THE POPE.* 
> 
> YOU MY FRIEND ARE IN DENIAL. DONT YOU DARE JUDGE ME, I HAVE DONE NOTHING FOR YOU TO JUDGE MY CHARACTER BUT GIVE YOU MY OPINION AND MY TRUTH. TRUTH IS GOOD AND IF I DONT LIKE A RELIGON THAT IS OK, BUT DONT JUDGE ME WHEN THE TRUTH IS CLEAR. THE MOO-SLEM RELIGON IS EVIL, I HAVE READ THE CORAN AND IT SAYS TO KILL THE INFEDEL, WICH IS NON-MOOSLEMS. I SHOW RESPECT WHEN RESPECT IS CALLED FOR, AND THE MOO-SLEM RELIGON GETS NONE. 
> 
> YOU WANT TO BLAME AMERICA FOR ALL THE DEATHS IN IRACK, YOUR CHARACTER SUCKS! SEE HOW DOES IT FEEL? (Actual I dont judge you, just saying this so you can see from my point of view, it is all just thought and I would never hurt anybody, I would give my life up in a heartbeat to save others) WELL I BLAME THE MOOS-SLEM RELIGON FOR ALL THE DEATHS BECAUSE IT TEACHES HATE. TO THE MOO-SLEM WORLD WE ARE THE DEVIL AND WE MUST DIE, BUT YOU ARE TOO NAIVE TO SEE ALL OF THIS.



Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt publically critized Hezballah when captured the Israeli soldiers. These governments are oppressive and fear terrorist groups because they are trying to overthrow them. We also use them to torture suspected terrorists for us.

The middle east needs democratic governments that respect the rights of their citizens. But be serious, the West doesn't want democracy. When Hamas won a fair election last january and since the Israel, the US and EU didn't like the results, they've been trying to starve the palestinians into creating a government to there liking. So much for democracy. 

Well you open yourself to criticism by saying things like "THE MOO-SLEM RELIGON IS EVIL." Your basing your oppinion on 1.1 billion people on a few thousand terrorists.

America, UK, Australia, the colalition of the willing can't wash their hands of this. They caused a lot of civilian deaths during the invasion, created a power vacuum removing, and let to rise of religious tension and the rise of religious extremism.

This is the pope's quote. I don't see how it's praising muslims.

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

I've never read the Qur'an so I only have a vague clue of wants inside. Since you've read it, you should create a threat and discuss the points of islam with zOaib. I look forward to being informed.

----------


## mcpeepants

> Well they have been waiting for a few thousand years.
> 
> 
> 
> Egypt? are you talking about the bibel story? In that case you should know there is no proof whatsoever that the jews where ever slaves in egypt. 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are the one that claims for sure that you know Iran will build nuclear weapons and will use them. I am just saying that I dont buy into the hype, that there is NO evidence whatsoever for a nuclear weapons program and that we should discuss this for a long time since they are years from beeing able to build nuclear weapons.
> ...


That last line is nice

----------


## Chad B

> No not having a bad day at all allthough I have been notoriously cranky from alot of stress during the last weeks or so :/ So maby I am beeing a bit rude.
> 
> But in this case I just can not se how anyone can belive the majority of a group of people that consists of over one billion humans(the majority of those billion + people living in poor regions of the world, so not westernised)are terrorists or terrorists sympatisers.
> 
> I mean sure maby some of them cheere if shit happens in europe or america, but that doesnt mean they would blow themself up. What everything going on there and the religious leaders brainwashing them I cant blame them for cheering. They are brainwashed from the day they are born. Even the schools teach vile things over there.
> 
> But I have 100% belife in that the overwhelming majority of them are good, decent people that just want to live there lifes, put food on the table, create a good life for there kids and so on. Just like you and me, they just happen to be born in the wrong place.
> 
> Most of the iraqi's and irani's coming to sweden are decent people. I have never meet any imigrant that was rude towards me, on the contrary the imigrants that are in there 30's and older are tremendously polie. Cant say the same about the teens though.
> ...


Most of the world does not like America. 

I believe that these people dont see them as terrorists, but martyrs, people called by God for a high calling in there faith. In there minds they are not doing anything wrong supporting there martyrs, they look up to them as being warriors for Allah. Most of these people dont have luxuries, cars and so on; all they have is there religion. 

I completely understand why you believe what you believe. Maybe it is your upbringing and maybe were you live is more peaceful place than USA. You have a strong faith in mankind, which I dont have. I had a very rough childhood and have seen and been a victim to the evil that is in man, so I have very little faith in mankind, I actual have the opposite. Maybe I should move to Sweden because all I see over here is a doggy dog world, with not much brotherhood at all. 

Am I a worse person because I believe this way? I dont think so. If you were black, white, Jew, or Muslim I would still treat you as I would want to be treated, this to me is the golden rule, the way to a happy life. Yes, I think most Moslems are bad, but if a Moslem came up to me on the street or in the office I would see him as a brother and give him the benefit of the doubt. I would see him as brother until proven otherwise. Why dont I do this with the world, well the world has proven itself to me as my enemy, but when I meet an individual I dont know if he is part of the world or not. Do I also think most of the professed Christians in the world are Hippocrates and have wicked harts, yes, even though I believe in Christ. But I also see potential in everybody too, and I have met some genuine good people so I know they are out there.

Hope this wasnt too confusing.  :LOL:  

I value you opinion and friendship, this is why I tried to explain myself. I have read tons of your posts in the past few years and from what I can tell your cool.  :Smilie:

----------


## zodiac666

> If faith in god makes people do incredibly stupid things then maby we dont need those gods.


qoute of the year!

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> I value you opinion and friendship, this is why I tried to explain myself. I have read tons of your posts in the past few years and from what I can tell your cool.


You realy dont have to explain yourself to me bro  :Smilie:  I never carrie grudges or anything from discussions on this forum. It gets heated sometimes but that doesnt mean I think less of the person Im discussing with. Heck I bicker with Logan in every other thread and that doesnt mean I dont like the guy  :Big Grin: 


Didnt know you been a member for so long. Just a lurker or switched username??

----------


## Phreak101

> You realy dont have to explain yourself to me bro  I never carrie grudges or anything from discussions on this forum. It gets heated sometimes but that doesnt mean I think less of the person Im discussing with. Heck I bicker with Logan in every other thread and that doesnt mean I dont like the guy 
> 
> 
> Didnt know you been a member for so long. Just a lurker or switched username??


Hell yeah, Johan makes my gluons tingle... :7up:

----------


## juicejunkie2

> You know nothing of my character.
> 
> Why do you think no Major Moo-slem leaders have spoken out, because these terrorist are martyrs to them. 
> 
> There should be an uprising of moo-slems against the killing. But instead the pope recites an old speech saying that true moo-slems are to be peaceful in their land (paraphrase) and what do they do? Yes, they put a death warrant out on him and march around with sighn that say KILL THE POPE.
> 
> YOU MY FRIEND ARE IN DENIAL. DONT YOU DARE JUDGE ME, I HAVE DONE NOTHING FOR YOU TO JUDGE MY CHARACTER BUT GIVE YOU MY OPINION AND MY TRUTH. TRUTH IS GOOD AND IF I DONT LIKE A RELIGON THAT IS OK, BUT DONT JUDGE ME WHEN THE TRUTH IS CLEAR. THE MOO-SLEM RELIGON IS EVIL, *I HAVE READ THE CORAN* AND IT SAYS TO KILL THE INFEDEL, WICH IS NON-MOOSLEMS. I SHOW RESPECT WHEN RESPECT IS CALLED FOR, AND THE MOO-SLEM RELIGON GETS NONE. 
> 
> YOU WANT TO BLAME AMERICA FOR ALL THE DEATHS IN IRACK, YOUR CHARACTER SUCKS! SEE HOW DOES IT FEEL? (Actual I dont judge you, just saying this so you can see from my point of view, it is all just thought and I would never hurt anybody, I would give my life up in a heartbeat to save others) WELL I BLAME THE MOOS-SLEM RELIGON FOR ALL THE DEATHS BECAUSE IT TEACHES HATE. TO THE MOO-SLEM WORLD WE ARE THE DEVIL AND WE MUST DIE, BUT YOU ARE TOO NAIVE TO SEE ALL OF THIS.



 :Bs:  Aaahhhh forget it .... could argue for hours but I'm not Chuck Norris so even though I can lead a horse to water I CAN'T make him drink it!!

----------


## singern

> Aaahhhh forget it .... could argue for hours but I'm not Chuck Norris so even though I can lead a horse to water I CAN'T make him drink it!!


Thats cause the beast isnt thirsty, he has quenched his thirst simply by painting an entire people with a single brush stroke, and putting it on display for all to see.

I will be the first to stand up and denounce the violence of terrorism in the name of religion or the illusion of politics, but to label an entire race on the the actions of a perverted minority is ludicrous.

Seems like RedJism (who hates everything not Muslim) and ChadB (who simply hates Muslims) should get a room, two men enter one man leave.

----------


## juicejunkie2

> Thats cause the beast isnt thirsty, he has quenched his thirst simply by painting an entire people with a single brush stroke, and putting it on display for all to see.
> 
> I will be the first to stand up and denounce the violence of terrorism in the name of religion or the illusion of politics, but to label an entire race on the the actions of a perverted minority is ludicrous.
> 
> *Seems like RedJism (who hates everything not Muslim) and ChadB (who simply hates Muslims) should get a room, two men enter one man leave*.


Now THAT I'd watch.

I have a feeling ChadB hates more than just Muslims ... seems very disturbed and angry at the world. Time heals all I guess. 

Karma is a MF ... catches up with everyone eventually.

----------


## juicejunkie2

HAHA ... just saw this clip and found it very fitting for this thread..

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/233506...en_vs_colbert/

----------


## Compound

Look at the past 50 years of middle east history, If i were Israel i would shut up, They are the most sneaky and dangerious state in the world,

The Iranians are not arabs, They are a much more fearsom nemesis, I dont want any western country to get involved in this one, Is Israel wants to attack Iran let her go it alone and get creamed, I thin kthe USA's 1.6 trilion dollers has gone far enough. That 1.6 trillion could be used to educate all millions of Americans, That 1.6 trillion could of been used to offer free health care for all americans, But insted Israel has its tentacles wraped around the the banks and leaders of the USA making them offer blood to further the Israel expanionest agenda and dontae tax payers mony to a state that spies on the USA, 

Only if the avergare american understood what Israel was doing to his home, It would be a different world.

----------


## singern

> Look at the past 50 years of middle east history, If i were Israel i would shut up, They are the most sneaky and dangerious state in the world,
> 
> The Iranians are not arabs, They are a much more fearsom nemesis, I dont want any western country to get involved in this one, Is Israel wants to attack Iran let her go it alone and get creamed, I thin kthe USA's 1.6 trilion dollers has gone far enough. That 1.6 trillion could be used to educate all millions of Americans, That 1.6 trillion could of been used to offer free health care for all americans, But insted Israel has its tentacles wraped around the the banks and leaders of the USA making them offer blood to further the Israel expanionest agenda and dontae tax payers mony to a state that spies on the USA, 
> 
> Only if the avergare american understood what Israel was doing to his home, It would be a different world.


Your a new member so Ill spell it out for you.
This is a news forum, You really need to stop pushing your personal agenda, and the evident hatred you conceal within, its really ugly and ignorant.

----------


## Compound

> Your a new member so Ill spell it out for you.
> This is a news forum, You really need to stop pushing your personal agenda, and the evident hatred you conceal within, its really ugly and ignorant.



Sorry for stating facts, I must of hurt your feelings., Will you be affected if the USA cuts funding to a un-greatfull ally that spies on it and sells US technology to China,. :Evil2:  


Its the truth , Its also in the news,

----------


## Phreak101

> Sorry for stating facts, I must of hurt your feelings., *Will you be affected if the USA cuts funding to a un-greatfull ally that spies on it and sells US technology to China,.* 
> 
> Its the truth , Its also in the news,



Do you have a source for this other than some wildly biased website?

----------


## singern

> Sorry for stating facts, I must of hurt your feelings., Will you be affected if the USA cuts funding to a un-greatfull ally that spies on it and sells US technology to China,. 
> 
> 
> Its the truth , Its also in the news,


Have no fear, Ignorance and illogical hatred will not hurt my feelings.

Your post is certainly not truth, but a poor attempt to broadcast a personal agenda of aggravated ignorance. 
The democracy of Israel is not only grateful for the partnership and friendship of the US but fortunate to have an friend who understands right from wrong.

----------


## Compound

> Have no fear, Ignorance and illogical hatred will not hurt my feelings.
> 
> Your post is certainly not truth, but a poor attempt to broadcast a personal agenda of aggravated ignorance. 
> The democracy of Israel is not only grateful for the partnership and friendship of the US but fortunate to have an friend who understands right from wrong.




HAHAHA 


Take this,
*
Despite optimistic reports in the Israeli press about Tel Aviv's bid to end a crisis with the US over arms exports in general and arms sales to China in particular, Israel's "compliance" with Washington's demands is not convincing.

Haaretz reported that even Israel's friends in the US Congress and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee have criticised its management of the crisis and urged it to avoid exacerbating the conflict.

Sources in Washington familiar with Israeli tactics of deception are sceptical of any new memorandum of understanding that may be concluded to curtail Israeli clandestine activities to sell advanced arms in violation of American laws.

They point to the Chinese-Israeli history of military cooperation as stark evidence. 

China projecting power 

The successful test of a Chinese submarine-launched ballistic missile a couple of weeks ago has once again brought attention to the growing strategic power projection of this Asian country. 

The new missile is capable of delivering a nuclear weapon up to 9000 km, which allows its submarines to remain near the Chinese coast, under a military umbrella, while engaging in potential military operations anywhere in the world. 

US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld noted that "China is improving its ability to project power, and developing advanced systems of military technology".


"Israel and the US are one nation as far as the government is concerned at this time. The US is the lifeline of Israel."



What Rumsfeld didn't elaborate on was where China has acquired much of its military technology from and how "America's strategic partner" had violated several American laws on the export and third party transfer of critical military technologies. 

Although Russian technology plays a part in its programmes, much of China's advanced technology has come from the Israelis, who have often sold their own technology or American technology that was given to them.

An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman put the 2004 trade volume with China at $2.4 billion, saying this did not include defence deals. Defence Ministry figures are not official, but Israel's Channel Two television said Israel sells China some $2.5 billion of satellite technology and arms per annum.

As a result, the US has recently embargoed new defence sales to Israel until it satisfactorily settles the dispute over unauthorised sales of technology to China. It has even threatened Israeli participation in the new Joint Strike Fighter being built by Lockheed Martin.

Although the US has occasionally stopped Israeli sales to China, like the Phalcon Airborne warning system, many sales have either been ignored or done secretly. 

This sort of blindness to espionage is not the norm for American intelligence
In many cases, like the sale of Patriot missile technology, the transfer had to be kept secret because Israel knew that the US would veto the sale.

From the Israeli point of view, a partnership with China is ideal. Israel has a small, advanced industrial base. Its technology rivals anything out of Europe or the US. However, the inefficiencies of staying on a wartime basis have made it small and inefficient.

China, on the other hand, has a large industrial base that is in need of technology. And, China has the hard currency to pay for that technology.

Although the current disagreement is over Israel's upgrading of Chinese drones that are capable of finding radar units, the pattern of Israeli sales goes back much longer. 

In fact, they have specialised in selling China "multiplier" technology - advances that multiply the effectiveness of an army, allowing it to fight toe-to-toe with the most advanced armies in the world.

There is no better example of this type of sale than the transfer of Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) technology that is seen in the upgrade of the Chinese drone aircraft. ELINT gathering equipment is critical for a modern army. 

It allows aircraft to detect the electronic emissions of enemy units, categorise them as to their purpose, and help determine the level of threat. 

Israel, which has an advanced electronics industry, has gladly offered the Chinese the equipment that has been designed specifically for detecting and countering systems used by many nations in the Middle East.

From the Israeli point of view, a partnership with China is ideal

A weapons system that is heavily reliant on electronic technology is the Chinese anti-radiation missile (YJ-9) which is designed to home in on radar units and destroy them.

This is a high priority programme for the Chinese and much of its technology came from the Israeli's Star Arms missile system. 

It had been designed to specifically home in on American electronic emissions like the Awacs aircraft, the Patriot missile radar, and the Aegis phased array radar on American warships. 

High technology

The ability to counter these American systems came from the Israelis, who had access to the technologies of these systems. And, these technology transfers were in direct contradiction of the Missile Technology Control Regime.

The Chinese YJ-9 is not the only missile to benefit from Israeli sales. The Chinese HQ-9 Medium Range Surface to Air Missile also has technology from the American Patriot Missile System.

The technology came to the Chinese via the Israelis who received it supposedly for development of their Arrow Anti-ballistic Missile.

It not only makes Chinese SAMs more effective, but renders Chinese ballistic missiles harder to intercept since they know the strengths and weaknesses of a major anti-ballistic missile system.

Israeli missile technology sales are not limited to these. Tel Aviv has purportedly licensed the production of its short range Python air-to-air missile. 

As a result of this help, China's missile industry is commonly known as, "an island of excellence".

This is a dramatic development considering that just 30 years ago China did not have any indigenous missile technology base to speak of. Now they are a major supplier of missiles around the world.

But, sales alone are not the only threat posed by China. The country is rapidly gaining the ability to project power far beyond its borders and much of that technology is coming from Israel. 

Israel has managed to escape any major punishment for its actions because of its special relationship with the US

One aspect to power projection is the development of a "blue water" navy. And Israel has done much to help China in that regard. 

Within the last month, American intelligence published a report that expressed surprise at several key military developments that would allow Beijing to project its military power. 

One of those developments was the deployment of a new Chinese warship equipped with a Chinese version of the American Aegis Battle Management technology. 

This technology, again, came via Israeli sources, which also provided the information that allows Chinese anti-radiation missiles to successfully acquire and destroy the Aegis phased array radar.

Escaping punishment

Israel is not just satisfied with selling technology. It is transforming the Chinese industrial base in order to make it more efficient. 

Given the Chinese industrial base's limited technology, Israel has been forced to send advisers and technicians to China's military factories to help them overcome long standing weaknesses in design, engineering and systems integration. 

This help will allow the Chinese to develop better indigenous weapons, integrate foreign technology faster, and reverse engineer stolen weapons systems successfully.

By sending advisers and technicians to China to help upgrade its arms factories, Israel is not only giving them the technology but the ability to better use it and capitalise on it in the future.

Israel has managed to escape any major punishment for its actions because of its special relationship with the US. 

In a recent highly classified report for the new Director of America's National Intelligence, American analysts were accused of not recognising the Chinese military technology threat. 

Interestingly, the report faulted American intelligence for failing to see technological developments in areas where Israel was actively involved. 

This sort of blindness to espionage is not the norm for American intelligence. When France was accused of industrial espionage a few years ago, the US government made an international issue of it. 

When European countries sold technology to Iraq, the US imposed sanctions. But, for Israel, it has kept relatively quiet and the transfer of technology from America to Israel continues despite the recent events.

Mounzer Sleiman, PhD, is an independent political-military analyst and expert in US national security affairs, based in the Washington DC area.*

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...2&contrassID=2

http://www.rense.com/general31/fnews.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in639143.shtml


part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSmm4CiCwBQ
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUufx53pIUo
part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqeNw1rgLtM


Also not to forget the 1.6 trillon the US tax payer has forked out to pay for israels weapons, This money would of be spent on Us citizens that need it,

WHat a lovly alley, hahaha

----------


## Compound

> Have no fear, Ignorance and illogical hatred will not hurt my feelings.
> 
> Your post is certainly not truth, but a poor attempt to broadcast a personal agenda of aggravated ignorance. 
> The democracy of Israel is not only grateful for the partnership and friendship of the US but fortunate to have an friend who understands right from wrong.




HAHAHA and this is only a fraction of proof,.


Take this,
*
Despite optimistic reports in the Israeli press about Tel Aviv's bid to end a crisis with the US over arms exports in general and arms sales to China in particular, Israel's "compliance" with Washington's demands is not convincing.

Haaretz reported that even Israel's friends in the US Congress and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee have criticised its management of the crisis and urged it to avoid exacerbating the conflict.

Sources in Washington familiar with Israeli tactics of deception are sceptical of any new memorandum of understanding that may be concluded to curtail Israeli clandestine activities to sell advanced arms in violation of American laws.

They point to the Chinese-Israeli history of military cooperation as stark evidence. 

China projecting power 

The successful test of a Chinese submarine-launched ballistic missile a couple of weeks ago has once again brought attention to the growing strategic power projection of this Asian country. 

The new missile is capable of delivering a nuclear weapon up to 9000 km, which allows its submarines to remain near the Chinese coast, under a military umbrella, while engaging in potential military operations anywhere in the world. 

US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld noted that "China is improving its ability to project power, and developing advanced systems of military technology".


"Israel and the US are one nation as far as the government is concerned at this time. The US is the lifeline of Israel."



What Rumsfeld didn't elaborate on was where China has acquired much of its military technology from and how "America's strategic partner" had violated several American laws on the export and third party transfer of critical military technologies. 

Although Russian technology plays a part in its programmes, much of China's advanced technology has come from the Israelis, who have often sold their own technology or American technology that was given to them.

An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman put the 2004 trade volume with China at $2.4 billion, saying this did not include defence deals. Defence Ministry figures are not official, but Israel's Channel Two television said Israel sells China some $2.5 billion of satellite technology and arms per annum.

As a result, the US has recently embargoed new defence sales to Israel until it satisfactorily settles the dispute over unauthorised sales of technology to China. It has even threatened Israeli participation in the new Joint Strike Fighter being built by Lockheed Martin.

Although the US has occasionally stopped Israeli sales to China, like the Phalcon Airborne warning system, many sales have either been ignored or done secretly. 

This sort of blindness to espionage is not the norm for American intelligence
In many cases, like the sale of Patriot missile technology, the transfer had to be kept secret because Israel knew that the US would veto the sale.

From the Israeli point of view, a partnership with China is ideal. Israel has a small, advanced industrial base. Its technology rivals anything out of Europe or the US. However, the inefficiencies of staying on a wartime basis have made it small and inefficient.

China, on the other hand, has a large industrial base that is in need of technology. And, China has the hard currency to pay for that technology.

Although the current disagreement is over Israel's upgrading of Chinese drones that are capable of finding radar units, the pattern of Israeli sales goes back much longer. 

In fact, they have specialised in selling China "multiplier" technology - advances that multiply the effectiveness of an army, allowing it to fight toe-to-toe with the most advanced armies in the world.

There is no better example of this type of sale than the transfer of Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) technology that is seen in the upgrade of the Chinese drone aircraft. ELINT gathering equipment is critical for a modern army. 

It allows aircraft to detect the electronic emissions of enemy units, categorise them as to their purpose, and help determine the level of threat. 

Israel, which has an advanced electronics industry, has gladly offered the Chinese the equipment that has been designed specifically for detecting and countering systems used by many nations in the Middle East.

From the Israeli point of view, a partnership with China is ideal

A weapons system that is heavily reliant on electronic technology is the Chinese anti-radiation missile (YJ-9) which is designed to home in on radar units and destroy them.

This is a high priority programme for the Chinese and much of its technology came from the Israeli's Star Arms missile system. 

It had been designed to specifically home in on American electronic emissions like the Awacs aircraft, the Patriot missile radar, and the Aegis phased array radar on American warships. 

High technology

The ability to counter these American systems came from the Israelis, who had access to the technologies of these systems. And, these technology transfers were in direct contradiction of the Missile Technology Control Regime.

The Chinese YJ-9 is not the only missile to benefit from Israeli sales. The Chinese HQ-9 Medium Range Surface to Air Missile also has technology from the American Patriot Missile System.

The technology came to the Chinese via the Israelis who received it supposedly for development of their Arrow Anti-ballistic Missile.

It not only makes Chinese SAMs more effective, but renders Chinese ballistic missiles harder to intercept since they know the strengths and weaknesses of a major anti-ballistic missile system.

Israeli missile technology sales are not limited to these. Tel Aviv has purportedly licensed the production of its short range Python air-to-air missile. 

As a result of this help, China's missile industry is commonly known as, "an island of excellence".

This is a dramatic development considering that just 30 years ago China did not have any indigenous missile technology base to speak of. Now they are a major supplier of missiles around the world.

But, sales alone are not the only threat posed by China. The country is rapidly gaining the ability to project power far beyond its borders and much of that technology is coming from Israel. 

Israel has managed to escape any major punishment for its actions because of its special relationship with the US

One aspect to power projection is the development of a "blue water" navy. And Israel has done much to help China in that regard. 

Within the last month, American intelligence published a report that expressed surprise at several key military developments that would allow Beijing to project its military power. 

One of those developments was the deployment of a new Chinese warship equipped with a Chinese version of the American Aegis Battle Management technology. 

This technology, again, came via Israeli sources, which also provided the information that allows Chinese anti-radiation missiles to successfully acquire and destroy the Aegis phased array radar.

Escaping punishment

Israel is not just satisfied with selling technology. It is transforming the Chinese industrial base in order to make it more efficient. 

Given the Chinese industrial base's limited technology, Israel has been forced to send advisers and technicians to China's military factories to help them overcome long standing weaknesses in design, engineering and systems integration. 

This help will allow the Chinese to develop better indigenous weapons, integrate foreign technology faster, and reverse engineer stolen weapons systems successfully.

By sending advisers and technicians to China to help upgrade its arms factories, Israel is not only giving them the technology but the ability to better use it and capitalise on it in the future.

Israel has managed to escape any major punishment for its actions because of its special relationship with the US. 

In a recent highly classified report for the new Director of America's National Intelligence, American analysts were accused of not recognising the Chinese military technology threat. 

Interestingly, the report faulted American intelligence for failing to see technological developments in areas where Israel was actively involved. 

This sort of blindness to espionage is not the norm for American intelligence. When France was accused of industrial espionage a few years ago, the US government made an international issue of it. 

When European countries sold technology to Iraq, the US imposed sanctions. But, for Israel, it has kept relatively quiet and the transfer of technology from America to Israel continues despite the recent events.

Mounzer Sleiman, PhD, is an independent political-military analyst and expert in US national security affairs, based in the Washington DC area.*

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...2&contrassID=2

http://www.rense.com/general31/fnews.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in639143.shtml


part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSmm4CiCwBQ
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUufx53pIUo
part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqeNw1rgLtM


Also not to forget the 1.6 trillon the US tax payer has forked out to pay for israels weapons, This money would of be spent on Us citizens that need it,

WHat a lovly alley, hahaha

----------


## singern

Cant get any more clear than this. Iranian Pres is truly a raving lunatic who is feverishly working to get his hands on that little red button. There is no misunderstanding here. 
It is clear he will sacrifice every last Persian at his command to fight Israel and the west, Just as in the Iran Iraq war when Iran used tens of thousands of the well known children infantry divisions (under the age of 12. Just to deplete Iraq of bullets.


*Oct. 20, 2006 10:59 
Ahmadinejad: Israel will soon disappear

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Friday said that Israel would soon disappear. Ahmadinejad went on to threaten any country that supported the Jewish state. 

"You imposed a group of terrorists ... on the region," he said, addressing the US and its allies. "It is in your own interest to distance yourself from these criminals... This is an ultimatum. Don't complain tomorrow." 

Ahmadinejad then called the UN Security Council and its decisions "illegitimate."*

----------


## juicejunkie2

> Cant get any more clear than this. Iranian Pres is truly a raving lunatic who is feverishly working to get his hands on that little red button. There is no misunderstanding here. 
> It is clear he will sacrifice every last Persian at his command to fight Israel and the west, Just as in the Iran Iraq war when Iran used tens of thousands of the well known children infantry divisions (under the age of 12. Just to deplete Iraq of bullets.
> 
> 
> *Oct. 20, 2006 10:59 
> Ahmadinejad: Israel will soon disappear
> 
> Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Friday said that Israel would soon disappear. Ahmadinejad went on to threaten any country that supported the Jewish state. 
> 
> ...


Iran is nuts no doubt BUT what does this post have to do with the sneaky underhanded ungrateful sh!t Isreal is doing by spying on the same people that save their ass again and again .. I say we cut them off and let them deal with their own shit .. whatever that maybe... I'd love to see how long they actually survive with all the "advanced technology" they have now days.

----------


## singern

> Iran is nuts no doubt BUT what does this post have to do with the sneaky underhanded ungrateful sh!t Isreal is doing by spying on the same people that save their ass again and again .. I say we cut them off and let them deal with their own shit .. whatever that maybe... I'd love to see how long they actually survive with all the "advanced technology" they have now days.



This thread is titled *"Israel calls Iran it's "greatest threat"*  for which my post is right on topic and includes relative news posting from today's paper.

Not : *"Conspiracy theories meant to discredit Israel"* You can find countless other threads on that topic.

----------


## juicejunkie2

> This thread is titled *"Israel calls Iran it's "greatest threat"*  for which my post is right on topic and includes relative news posting from today's paper.
> 
> Not : *"Conspiracy theories meant to discredit Israel"* You can find countless other threads on that topic.


I was talking about the POST and not the thread as a whole. You questioned Compound's information and he gave you proof .. to which you had no rebuttal but instead posted the above article. THAT is what I was talking about when I asked what the article had to do with news clippings and video footage. I love it when someone talks about Israel you quickly jump up and say "conspiracy" while all else in the world are evil people out to get Israel. I was always taught to not take anything for face value granted the Muslims are out to get Israel BUT one cant be so naive to think that there is zero reason for it (though I dont know what ALL the reasons are). BOTH sides are a bunch of bitches to be honest.. no one side is 100% correct.

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## singern

> I was talking about the POST and not the thread as a whole. You questioned Compound's information and he gave you proof .. to which you had no rebuttal but instead posted the above article. THAT is what I was talking about when I asked what the article had to do with news clippings and video footage. I love it when someone talks about Israel you quickly jump up and say "conspiracy" while all else in the world are evil people out to get Israel. I was always taught to not take anything for face value granted the Muslims are out to get Israel BUT one cant be so naive to think that there is zero reason for it (though I dont know what ALL the reasons are). BOTH sides are a bunch of bitches to be honest.. no one side is 100% correct.



Then it seems you haven't really read my posts, I defend any people, whether Jewish, Muslim, or other when it comes to posts that generalize and lump an entire nation with stereotypical propaganda. I frequently denounce those that categorize Muslims as terrorists, as I will vehemently denounce those ideas that Israelis as a people are in some way evil, The government of Israel is a democratic representation of the People of Israel, and yes that reflects both Judaism, and Zionism.

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## juicejunkie2

> Then it seems you haven't really read my posts, I defend any people, whether Jewish, Muslim, or other when it comes to posts that generalize and lump an entire nation with stereotypical propaganda. I frequently denounce those that categorize Muslims as terrorists, as I will vehemently denounce those ideas that Israelis as a people are in some way evil, The government of Israel is a democratic representation of the People of Israel, and yes that reflects both Judaism, and Zionism.



THIS is what happens when you mix religion with government ... be it the arab world, Israel, Pakistan or India. All [email protected] stupid. I have read all your posts and I'm not saying what you're saying is wrong .. I'm saying what you're saying is one sided when it comes to Israel .. I do understand loyalty though so can't even blame you for doing so.

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## singern

> THIS is what happens when you mix religion with government ... be it the arab world, Israel, Pakistan or India. All [email protected] stupid. I have read all your posts and I'm not saying what you're saying is wrong .. I'm saying what you're saying is one sided when it comes to Israel .. I do understand loyalty though so can't even blame you for doing so.


Cool.

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