# STEROIDS FORUM > PCT (POST CYCLE THERAPY) >  Any Gyno Success Stories Out There Using Aromasin/Exemestane?

## RustedIron

I'm currently taking Aromasin /Nolva for my Gyno reversal. It's only been a couple weeks that I've noticed it. It's been 10 weeks since the end of my last cycle. 

Just curious if this is ok. Everyone gives Letro so much praise. I'm 2 days in with Aroma/Nolva and am wondering if I should switch to Letro or just keep on at it for 4 weeks? Anyone out there have success using Aromasin/Liquid Stane for their gyno?

Cheers

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## MickeyKnox

found this on here...i *think* its from CBino, but not certain..

_Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle . Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone :estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT ._

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## Phased

^^this is worst case snerio. There are much better ways to go about Gyno reversal than wrecking your body. I would not use this protocol. Mickey have you ever run that protocol? If not I would not be giving advice off of a copy and paste without any exp in the subject. I should not have to argue the danger of a copy and paste answer when no knowledge of the subject is know. Have you had Gyno and reversed it with what you are recommending?

Iron,

Ok here is what you can do. That will reverse it and not wreck your body and all your hard work after a cycle.

Letro dosing, i'll break it down for you:
1ml = 2.5mg
0.9ml = 2.25mg
0.8ml = 2mg
0.7ml = 1.75mg
0.6ml = 1.5mg
0.5ml = 1.25mg
0.4ml = 1mg
0.3ml = 0.75mg
0.2ml = 0.5mg
0.1ml = 0.25mg

Weeks 1-2
Letro .25mg EOD, so draw .1ml the plunger, letro is sweet so taste is ok. Take before bed.


Weeks 2-6
Nolvadex 40/40/40/20mg
Clomid 70/70/35/35mg

Nolvadex tastes really bad, mix it with water put it in a shot glass and throw it back.
I would do the same with the clomid.

Take the nolva in the morning, clomid at night.

This should reverse the Gyno .

Would like you to get labs to.
Privatemdlabs.com
Estradiol sensitive (e2)


Supplements 
Zinc 150mg Ed
Copper 2mg Ed
Vitamin d3 5000mg ED

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## MickeyKnox

no i have not. but C-bino has, and this is his protocol worked well for him and has been around here for some time. and since no one else freaked out over it since it was first posted, i figured it was still safe to recommended. 

what is your objection to this protocol? youre reaction to it appears as though this protocol is dangerous or something?? im always up for new ideas  :Smilie:

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## MickeyKnox

in case youre not sure who C-Bino is, here's a link to his "worst case" Gyno Reversal thread. it includes 19 pages of appreciation from most, if not ALL, of the senior members on this site. cheers bro. 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...=#.UHieUq7X_fs

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## Phased

> no i have not. but C-bino has, and this is his protocol worked well for him and has been around here for some time. and since no one else freaked out over it since it was first posted, i figured it was still safe to recommended. 
> 
> what is your objection to this protocol? youre reaction to it appears as though this protocol is dangerous or something?? im always up for new ideas


He has a small case of Gyno, easily reversed with small dose of letro and nolvadex and clomid. Do you know what 2.5mg of letro feels like? Think of the worst way you ever felt, multiply that by infinity and take that to the debts of forever and you still might feel better then 2.5mg of letro ED. And it is dangerous, letro in high doses is dangerous. E2 crash is very dangerous.

I have read his thread, I know who he is but as he has not posted in a while and that thread was posted 6 years ago. New and better methods have been developed in the community. 
Best

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## MickeyKnox

> He has a small case of Gyno, easily reversed with small dose of letro and nolvadex and clomid.* Do you know what 2.5mg of letro feels like?*  Think of the worst way you ever felt, multiply that by infinity and take that to the debts of forever and you still might feel better then 2.5mg of letro ED. And it is dangerous, letro in high doses is dangerous. E2 crash is very dangerous.
> 
> I have read his thread, I know who he is but as he has not posted in a while and that thread was posted 6 years ago. New and better methods have been developed in the community. 
> Best


no i don't. im smart enough not to get gyno.  :Smilie:

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## Phased

I never understood the highlighting of one particular sentence in a paragraph then making a joke about it. Iron is looking for help and is in pain, not jokes.

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## MickeyKnox

i gave what i thought was solid advice in post #2. if you disagree, im fine with that, but don't get cute with me. i don't hand out reckless advice. the next comment you have with me will be in pm, are we clear? 

OP, i sincerely hope you this cleared up. 

good luck.

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## RustedIron

Appreciate it guys. Yea Phased has some solid points. I don't feel I'm that extreme. Hell to be honest... I feel like I already notice a difference in sensation with two days of Aromasin and Nolvadex . Is it all in my head or is it possible to have worked so quickly? (The tissue of course is still there, but just the sensitivity seems to have died down..)

Phased you've really been helping out the forums lately... working your way up to admin level? =D I really appreciate your feedback. If I knew you in town, I'd buy you a tub of protein! Anyways, so the question still remains: What do I do with the bottle of Aromasin lol. You mentioned the importance of consistency and not switching, but I'm only 2 days in. Are you suggesting that with the little amount of time I've been on Aromasin, I could switch to Letro? 

Seems like I should just order more Aromasin and Nolva and do the 4 weeks you recommended. Eh?

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## Phased

Mick, I respectfully disagree. There is no cuteness, I just believe if someone has no experience with Gyno or letro, they should not be handing out advice to someone. If you disagree that's fine, your entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. I believe with the least abrasive treatment and moving up is important than starting out with the harshest known available.

I apologize if you disagree it's just my better judgement seeing down that long and hard road
Best

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## Phased

> Appreciate it guys. Yea Phased has some solid points. I don't feel I'm that extreme. Hell to be honest... I feel like I already notice a difference in sensation with two days of Aromasin and Nolvadex . Is it all in my head or is it possible to have worked so quickly? (The tissue of course is still there, but just the sensitivity seems to have died down..)
> 
> Phased you've really been helping out the forums lately... working your way up to admin level? =D I really appreciate your feedback. If I knew you in town, I'd buy you a tub of protein! Anyways, so the question still remains: What do I do with the bottle of Aromasin lol. You mentioned the importance of consistency and not switching, but I'm only 2 days in. Are you suggesting that with the little amount of time I've been on Aromasin, I could switch to Letro? 
> 
> Seems like I should just order more Aromasin and Nolva and do the 4 weeks you recommended. Eh?


What all do you have on hand and I'll build you a custom program.

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## RustedIron

Aromasin | About 10ml @ 10mg/ml
Nolvadex | About 10ml @ 25mg/ml

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## Phased

> Aromasin | About 10ml @ 10mg/ml
> Nolvadex | About 10ml @ 25mg/ml


Those doses for liquids do not seem right,
Nolva should be 20mg per ml 
Aromasin should be 25mg per ml

And that's not enough for complete treatment but it's enough to start.
Re check the mg per ml for me please
Best

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## RustedIron

It's exactly right. I don't use the site's sponsor though... can I PM you the website? What are the rules on that?

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## Phased

Ok start the aromasin at 10mg eod and the nolvadex at 50mg ED

Aromasin 10/10/10/10 EOD or till symptoms clear
Nolvadex 50/50/50/25 ED or till symptoms clear

If you can get some evista (raloxifine) from ar-r .com that is superb at getting rid of Gyno. Can you order it?

Do you have an fluid or blood discharge from you nipples?

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## RustedIron

> Ok start the aromasin at 10mg eod and the nolvadex at 50mg
> 
> Aromasin 10/10/10/10 EOD
> Nolvadex 50/50/50/25 ED
> 
> If you can get some evista (raloxifine) from ar-r.com that is superb at getting rid of Gyno. Can you order it?


That looks like a solid plan. Are you asking if I can order raloxifine from a financial standpoint? Yes I think I can afford it. What is Raloxifine? Never heard of it

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## Phased

> That looks like a solid plan. Are you asking if I can order raloxifine from a financial standpoint? Yes I think I can afford it. What is Raloxifine? Never heard of it


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raloxifene
I think its one of the best Gyno reversal Serms on the market and is a new higher class of drug.

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## MickeyKnox

i asked you to take this into pm. but you think youre above that because of your recent postings here. i assure you youre not. 

my answer was simply a cut and paste for a link for the OP to read. i never suggested that this was THE answer. it's simply a contribution for the OP to read and determine if this is something that he would be interested investigating further, OR perhaps ask further questions about the cut and paste/link. 

you don't have to have experienced gyno to provide a link from a respected member. that's what being productive is. being a "knowledgeable" doesn't mean you run around playing superman spending 11 pages attempting to save some newbie from trying AAS who clearly doesn't care what you have to say unless its' in line with his agenda. you didn't see that coming? 

look, i get it. youre running around like Mother Teressa and that's great. but don't bite off more than you can chew. ok?

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## MickeyKnox

Rusted Iron,

my apologies for the disruption. im out.

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## Phased

Here it is
http://www.ar-r.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=raloxifene

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## Phased

Once you get the ralaxofine, drop the aromasin and run it at 80mg Ed along with the nolvadex until symptoms resolve. You can go up to 100mg of it but I don't think it's nessasary.

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## RustedIron

> Once you get the ralaxofine, drop the aromasin and run it at 80mg Ed along with the nolvadex until symptoms resolve. You can go up to 100mg of it but I don't think it's nessasary.


Phased I hope I'm not being greedy for your all of your helpful insight, but I must ask.. why is it that you can completely terminate the use of an AI and just use two SERMs? Shouldn't I have some sort of AI in the reversal of gyno? I'm about to make an order, so I just want to be certain. I was prepared to order more Aromasin and Nolva, but you're suggesting I should just order Raloxifene and more Nolva?

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## Phased

> Phased I hope I'm not being greedy for your all of your helpful insight, but I must ask.. why is it that you can completely terminate the use of an AI and just use two SERMs? Shouldn't I have some sort of AI in the reversal of gyno? I'm about to make an order, so I just want to be certain. I was prepared to order more Aromasin and Nolva, but you're suggesting I should just order Raloxifene and more Nolva?


Aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor. Once it works..it works!! Binding all estrogen. The nolvadex will then block the receptors from absorption. That's why you can stop the aromasin. The Nolva and Ralox will then take over and do the rest. 

I hope I explained that right.

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## RustedIron

> Aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor. Once it works..it works!! Binding all estrogen. The nolvadex will then block the receptors from absorption. That's why you can stop the aromasin. The Nolva and Ralox will then take over and do the rest. 
> 
> I hope I explained that right.


Well that makes sense. Is that why it seems I've already noticed some change in nipple sensation so quickly? Aromasin is fast acting?

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## Phased

> Well that makes sense. Is that why it seems I've already noticed some change in nipple sensation so quickly? Aromasin is fast acting?


Its actually not that fast acting can take up to a week to get fully integrated, however if you consume it withfats such as eggs w/ yolks, almond butter or whole milk it has a 40-50% quicker absorption rate.

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## gymfu

> Aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor. Once it works..it works!! Binding all estrogen. The nolvadex will then block the receptors from absorption. That's why you can stop the aromasin. The Nolva and Ralox will then take over and do the rest. 
> 
> I hope I explained that right.


Aromasin does not BIND any estrogen at all, AI's prevent the conversion into estrogen a varying degrees. Aromasin is slighty more potent then arimadex and no where near to the potency of letro. 

Aromasin causes a 85% rate of estrogen suppression not 100%

Maybe YOUR the one who needs to be watching handing out advise.

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## Phased

> Aromasin does not BIND any estrogen at all, AI's prevent the conversion into estrogen a varying degrees. Aromasin is slighty more potent then arimadex and no where near to the potency of letro. 
> 
> Aromasin causes a 85% rate of estrogen suppression not 100%
> 
> Maybe YOUR the one who needs to be watching handing out advise.


I knew I didn't explain it right, thanks for the corrections! Mick and I already squashed this personally through pm, apologies were made and given and we are better for it.
Best

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## RustedIron

> Aromasin does not BIND any estrogen at all, AI's prevent the conversion into estrogen a varying degrees. Aromasin is slighty more potent then arimadex and no where near to the potency of letro. 
> 
> Aromasin causes a 85% rate of estrogen suppression not 100%
> 
> Maybe YOUR the one who needs to be watching handing out advise.


No need to get so cynical. Phased has been extremely responsive and helpful to say the least. But I am curious to hear what your opinion is on all of this. What do you think the best course of action would be?

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## Phased

Tensions been running high in all fronts around here today. I wish we could all have beer together and call it a day, I'm thankful to people that have the will to step up and correct when someone is not right, so don't worry, my feelings don't get hurt, if your not learning something everyday your back tracking and I just learned something so it's all good. Your in good hands.
Best

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## RustedIron

Well crap... I feel like I'm back to square one and debating Aromasin vs Letro... =\

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## Phased

I gave you two plans, I just dont think letro is the best for reversing Gyno. Just never liked the way it worked, it's a great AI, but as a Gyno reversal..I would chose aromasin , tamoxifen and ralaxofine.

Just because it only suppresses 85% does not mean it will not help. 100% suppression mean total e2 crash= worst month of your life.

Dont just take my word for it you need to research on your own, research ralaxofine on Gyno reversal and make up your own decision. We will help you with the rest and help you make the best decision you can but ultimately it's up too you.

Best

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## Sworder

Aromasin is actually dose dependent as other AIs. It won't give a flat 85% suppression at all given doses. There has been a study showing it suppresses it 85% but arimidex has been shown to suppress 95% in sufficient doses and letro to 98%.

Also, AIs haven't been proven to reverse gyno. It suppresses estrogen to prevent further aggravation. No need to drop the estrogen down to 0 and feel like crap.

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## RustedIron

> Ok start the aromasin at 10mg eod and the nolvadex at 50mg ED
> 
> Aromasin 10/10/10/10 EOD or till symptoms clear
> Nolvadex 50/50/50/25 ED or till symptoms clear
> 
> If you can get some evista (raloxifine) from ar-r .com that is superb at getting rid of Gyno. Can you order it?
> 
> Do you have an fluid or blood discharge from you nipples?


Just noticed this question. No, no discharge. Just hardening of the tissue and sensitivity

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## RustedIron

So here's what I'm doing. 

Aromasin 25/25/10/10 ED
Nolvadex 40/40/40/40 ED

Sound good folks?

Thank you for all of your help thus far. I'm sure I will have more questions lol

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## RustedIron

....and ordered. No going back now ha! Phased I owe you big time. Thank you for your insight in this matter. I will keep everyone posted

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## Phased

Ok if you start bottoming out with your e2 cut that aromaisin back. (Symptoms sore joints, no energy, loss of strengh and libido not wanting to do anything) 

AI's are not the best gyno reversals. They will only help so much, the rest you have go count on nolvadex and the other stuff I mentioned.

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## gymfu

> No need to get so cynical. Phased has been extremely responsive and helpful to say the least. But I am curious to hear what your opinion is on all of this. What do you think the best course of action would be?


I did not intend to be confrontational. It's just he kinda blasted another well respected member for showing you something that someone else tried and it looks like he's not sure about how AI's work. 

Look none of us are experts here....well maybe Marcus  :Smilie: , we need to gather as much info from various people as possible and make educated desisions. 

I actually like his plan. It should combat the gyno without killing all of your eatrogen. No need to get crazy unless you have to. Save letro as a last resort. But get started ASAP, this thing is time sensitive. 

The only thing I would change is I would run the aromasin at a higher dose then that.

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## RustedIron

> I did not intend to be confrontational. It's just he kinda blasted another well respected member for showing you something that someone else tried and it looks like he's not sure about how AI's work. 
> 
> Look none of us are experts here....well maybe Marcus , we need to gather as much info from various people as possible and make educated desisions. 
> 
> I actually like his plan. It should combat the gyno without killing all of your eatrogen. No need to get crazy unless you have to. Save letro as a last resort. But get started ASAP, this thing is time sensitive. 
> 
> The only thing I would change is I would run the aromasin at a higher dose then that.


No worries. It's a good thing that we all work together. Knowledge is power. The more educated we all are, the better off we will be. I'll pay close to attention to my side effects in regards to my E2 levels. You know... call me crazy, but my gyno feels better already. I'm not afraid to touch it nearly as much lol. I have been sleeping A LOT. So I don't know...my body is up to something. 

Oh and one more thing. I'm taking Aromasin at night, and Nolva in the morning. That sound good? I'll also taper off on the Aromasin if I start to hurt with the side effects. 

Cheers! 

BTW... Who's Marcus?

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## RustedIron

Back to the original question of this post. Anybody out there want to share their successful gyno reversal story?

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## gymfu

> No worries. It's a good thing that we all work together. Knowledge is power. The more educated we all are, the better off we will be. I'll pay close to attention to my side effects in regards to my E2 levels. You know... call me crazy, but my gyno feels better already. I'm not afraid to touch it nearly as much lol. I have been sleeping A LOT. So I don't know...my body is up to something. 
> 
> Oh and one more thing. I'm taking Aromasin at night, and Nolva in the morning. That sound good? I'll also taper off on the Aromasin if I start to hurt with the side effects. 
> 
> Cheers! 
> 
> BTW... Who's Marcus?


Marcus? Marcus? 
Lol

He's the senior vet/staff member I think. 

Obviously very knowledgeable. 

He and Swifto are the two top guys here IMO.

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## RustedIron

Ya I knew this would happen. The headaches are starting to come back. Jesuuussss. I definitely have an extremely responsive body type

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## RustedIron

> Marcus? Marcus? 
> Lol
> 
> He's the senior vet/staff member I think. 
> 
> Obviously very knowledgeable. 
> 
> He and Swifto are the two top guys here IMO.


Gooood to know. I've seen Swifto in a few forums, but not Marcus yet. Is that his username? Or real name? Or both?

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## gymfu

> Gooood to know. I've seen Swifto in a few forums, but not Marcus yet. Is that his username? Or real name? Or both?


It's his user name, I'm guessing its his real name as well.

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## Phased

> Back to the original question of this post. Anybody out there want to share their successful gyno reversal story?


Iron I have reversed it a few times. Gyno is a mental battle more than physical in my opinion. Yes it's a physical problem but it's a mental challenge to will yourself to overcome it. The reason why I was so against what Micky posted is because that is gonna be the most intense challenge you ever faced with those dosages of letro. Letro not only kills all the bad, but kills all the good in you, the good meaning clear mental focus, physical strength, sexual function and pleasure. 

Gyno is horrible for a few reasons the man one being you worked so hard for something to develope ones self to the maximum a male can go to be cut down with a rather feminine feature..unwanted breast tissue which is not muscle. No one wants that so its very hard for a man to deal with it on that level.

As I mentioned that thread is 6 years old and much better drugs have been developed to help clear this up without killing all the good in you. I'm positive if we work together we can get rid of it without going to such extremes. I'll be here everday to answer questions as will gym and whoever else would like to support you.

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## RustedIron

> Iron I have reversed it a few times. Gyno is a mental battle more than physical in my opinion. Yes it's a physical problem but it's a mental challenge to will yourself to overcome it. The reason why I was so against what Micky posted is because that is gonna be the most intense challenge you ever faced with those dosages of letro. Letro not only kills all the bad, but kills all the good in you, the good meaning clear mental focus, physical strength, sexual function and pleasure. 
> 
> Gyno is horrible for a few reasons the man one being you worked so hard for something to develope ones self to the maximum a male can go to be cut down with a rather feminine feature..unwanted breast tissue which is not muscle. No one wants that so its very hard for a man to deal with it on that level.
> 
> As I mentioned that thread is 6 years old and much better drugs have been developed to help clear this up without killing all the good in you. I'm positive if we work together we can get rid of it without going to such extremes. I'll be here everday to answer questions as will gym and whoever else would like to support you.


I think you deserve whatever comes after "Knowledgeable Member"! I appreciate your incredible response times and well thought out input. I'm glad you steered me away from Letro as I already have enough issues with motivation and proneness to depression. Let's see how this Stane and Nolva month goes.

Also, I should probably point out that I'm taking Tribulus and DAA. I only took these to restore my natural testosterone levels . Do you think these could have contributed any to this sudden delayed gyno?

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## Phased

I've never used DAA, heard mixed reviews. I stick to the tried and true medications..

Best

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## RustedIron

UPDATE: I quit taking DAA just in case, and my gyno seems to be reversing. On Day 7 now....

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## Phased

Glad this is working for you!!

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## Randy_Mar

I wouldn't say I technically reversed my gyno, but I finally was able to get it under control. The knots are still there, but it's not really noticeable and there no puffy/sensitively lately.

I ran C-bino's protocol not once but twice. I was so desperate, the second round I ran 2.5mg of liquid letro for months (no sides, but i'm sure my e2 was jacked!) Finally I just said screw it, tapered off with Nolva and lived with gyno annoyance. Well a few weeks ago, it flared up out of the blue (off cycle). The gyno wasn't growing, but my nips got extremely puffy and sore. 

This time I tried Liquid Stane 12mg ed + 10mg nolva. After a week with a little change, i bumped to 25mg stane + 20mg nolva. *<---THAT* is when i finally got "relief" for the first time in close to two years. No puffy, no pain, and I could finally wear shirts without an undershirt! I'm now on a small test prop cycle, so I've been slowly tapering down the nolva to 10mg, but I feel like they are getting a little puffy again. 

I don't think I'll fully figure it out, and I definitely think everyone responds differently to the gyro-reversal strategies out there. Letro didn't do it for me, but the stane + nolva seemed to work.
I'm still trying to figure out my proper dosages, without affecting my libido too much.

(PS - All my products were from AR-R , so I know they are legit.)

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## Phased

> I wouldn't say I technically reversed my gyno, but I finally was able to get it under control. The knots are still there, but it's not really noticeable and there no puffy/sensitively lately.
> 
> I ran C-bino's protocol not once but twice. I was so desperate, the second round I ran 2.5mg of liquid letro for months (no sides, but i'm sure my e2 was jacked!) Finally I just said screw it, tapered off with Nolva and lived with gyno annoyance. Well a few weeks ago, it flared up out of the blue (off cycle). The gyno wasn't growing, but my nips got extremely puffy and sore. 
> 
> This time I tried Liquid Stane 12mg ed + 10mg nolva. After a week with a little change, i bumped to 25mg stane + 20mg nolva. *<---THAT* is when i finally got "relief" for the first time in close to two years. No puffy, no pain, and I could finally wear shirts without an undershirt! I'm now on a small test prop cycle, so I've been slowly tapering down the nolva to 10mg, but I feel like they are getting a little puffy again. 
> 
> I don't think I'll fully figure it out, and I definitely think everyone responds differently to the gyro-reversal strategies out there. Letro didn't do it for me, but the stane + nolva seemed to work.
> I'm still trying to figure out my proper dosages, without affecting my libido too much.
> 
> (PS - All my products were from AR-R, so I know they are legit.)


*I'm glad the symptoms subsided, however complete reversal is possible, and not through the use of an AI. AI's and SERM's are completely different. Your not the first person that has not had luck with Letro for gyno reversal. As I mentioned Letro is and AI and not really supposed to be used for Gyno reversal. SERMS such as Nolvadex , Torefiene and Raloxefine were designed to reduce and reverse fatty breast tissue development. AI's will only work part of the way but a higher class SERM is needed to fully reduce and reverse gynocomastia. The formula I wrote for Iron was to restart his HTPA out and get rid of the gyno, here is a thread I wrote just for reversing gyno where clomid is not needed.

If you really want to give it another go without completely crashing yourself with the letro, try my formula. And with mine you will not feel like crap with a forced E2 crash, I know it will help, raloxefine is the best SERM gyno reversal drug there is.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...l#.UH-IHWl26kU*

----------


## Sworder

> I wouldn't say I technically reversed my gyno, but I finally was able to get it under control. The knots are still there, but it's not really noticeable and there no puffy/sensitively lately.
> 
> *I ran C-bino's protocol not once but twice. I was so desperate, the second round I ran 2.5mg of liquid letro for months* (no sides, but i'm sure my e2 was jacked!) Finally I just said screw it, tapered off with Nolva and lived with gyno annoyance. Well a few weeks ago, it flared up out of the blue (off cycle). The gyno wasn't growing, but my nips got extremely puffy and sore.


C-bino's protocol is outdated and research has come a long way since then! Glad you were able to get relief; it is regretful that nobody recommended the newer protocol for you earlier.

----------


## Phased

Two More Letro Run failure's
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...l#.UH-ZT2l26kV
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...p#.UH-X32l26kU

----------


## RustedIron

Does this mean I Stane and Nolvadex aren't going to get me to the finish line by themselves?  :Frown:

----------


## Phased

> Does this mean I Stane and Nolvadex aren't going to get me to the finish line by themselves?


Well you got one week left of stane and a few weeks left of nolva and your already having good results...continue as planned, but if you have the cash and are serious I would get the roloxefine..I dont like going half measures with gyno.

----------


## RustedIron

Just got a new shipment of Stane and Nolva today actually. I reread your posts so I think I understand more clearly now. Nolva is the workhorse in the case of reversal and Stane is resetting my HTPA as to reduce unwanted estrogenic effects. 

So just keep on at it right? Day 8 now

----------


## RustedIron

Gotta travel to CA. Any issues taking Nolva and Stane with me in carry on? Just like any other liquid right?

----------


## RustedIron

If I get the roloxifene, it'll be another week until I can start taking it since I'll be out of town. Still worth it?

----------


## Phased

> If I get the roloxifene, it'll be another week until I can start taking it since I'll be out of town. Still worth it?


Stay on the coarse and do not let up on the nolvadex , as soon as you start the raloxefine drop the AI! and continue the clomid/nolva/raloxefine as planned.
Are you taking zinc, copper and D3 as well and taking high fats with aromasin ?

----------


## Phased

> Gotta travel to CA. Any issues taking Nolva and Stane with me in carry on? Just like any other liquid right?


Nope just put it in your toiletries bag and away you go

----------


## RustedIron

> Stay on the coarse and do not let up on the nolvadex , as soon as you start the raloxefine drop the AI! and continue the clomid/nolva/raloxefine as planned.
> Are you taking zinc, copper and D3 as well and taking high fats with aromasin?


Ah I take a lot of stuff. Two multi vitamins as well. I'll have to check their zinc and copper content. What is D3?

Yes fattys with aromasin .

----------


## Phased

> Ah I take a lot of stuff. Two multi vitamins as well. I'll have to check their zinc and copper content. What is D3?
> 
> Yes fattys with aromasin.


http://www.livestrong.com/article/80...insufficiency/

----------


## Swifto

> Aromasin is actually dose dependent as other AIs. It won't give a flat 85% suppression at all given doses. There has been a study showing it suppresses it 85% but arimidex has been shown to suppress 95% in sufficient doses and letro to 98%.
> 
> Also, AIs haven't been proven to reverse gyno. It suppresses estrogen to prevent further aggravation. No need to drop the estrogen down to 0 and feel like crap.


What data have you seen that shows this in males?

"Exmestane suppresses estrogen 85%"

"Arimidex 95%"

"Letro 98%"

I hope your not giving males advice on AI effectiveness, but actually citing female studies are you? 

I mean, I guess its an improvement on horses and rats, so lets see what you have...

----------


## Phased

> What data have you seen that shows this in males?
> 
> "Exmestane suppresses estrogen 85%"
> 
> "Arimidex 95%"
> 
> "Letro 98%"
> 
> I hope your not giving males advice on AI effectiveness, but actually citing female studies are you? 
> ...


Good shit, Thank you

So in theory Adex really is almost just as effective as Letro..why ever use letro then for just an extra 3%?

----------


## Swifto

> Good shit, Thank you
> 
> So in theory Adex really is almost just as effective as Letro..why ever use letro then for just an extra 3%?


I never even spoke about the effectiveness of AI's there, I kindly asked Sworder to validate his claims.

----------


## Phased

> I never even spoke about the effectiveness of AI's there, I kindly asked Sworder to validate his claims.


No I'm curious..I know your a big fan of Stane as I am..I just wanted to hear your thoughts on letro vs Adex. But I can PM you later so we can stay on point.
Thanks

----------


## Swifto

> No I'm curious..I know your a big fan of Stane as I am..I just wanted to hear your thoughts on letro vs Adex. But I can PM you later so we can stay on point.
> Thanks


PM me later on, yes.

I have a feeling this thread will answer your quesitons anyway. 

Or until Sworder has found all he can on google.com, and had replies from Bill Roberts and Scally at think steroids .com.

----------


## Matt

Ive never yet used anything that reverses gyno like nolva, its saved me on more than one occasion.....

----------


## Swifto

> Ive never yet used anything that reverses gyno like nolva, its saved me on more than one occasion.....


Tamoxifen and Rolaxifene have both been proven to reverse gynecomastia in pubescent males, but it takes months and months, not weeks.

Estrogen ablatation also causes breast cell death, which is why the most powerful AI we have at our disposal (Letro) works to reverse at time.

----------


## Randy_Mar

Will the Tamoxifen and Rolaxifene affect libido in the reversal process? (Using "Phased" protocal)

----------


## Sworder

> What data have you seen that shows this in males?
> I hope your not giving males advice on AI effectiveness, but actually citing female studies are you?


What is the confusion about? Check your "Why is it important to run an AI when on cycle?" if you want to talk about poor extrapolation, I wish you would provide a citation for "estrogen is important for AR sensitivity". Most, if not all studies in your thread, will be on females. This is the area of research, you will never find a perfect matching study and even if they would be in men, what gives? Individual variance can be large between males as well so I don't understand what you are getting at?

We have already covered "what science is" remember? I don't know why, first of all, you would dispute something just because it isn't tested in males, when you do the same thing. As well as, the scientists perform studies on animals and a lot of research is on females. If you want to try to converse about something I would be more than happy to oblige. Throwing a fit about something which you aren't even disputing, if you wish to dispute the figures that I provided that is fine. But, I know that you know, they are correct, I hope? LMAO

Anyway, Swifto, you are gonna have to catch me out on something else. You do know that "high estrogen" isn't correlated to breast cancer right? Just how "high testosterone " isn't correlated to prostate cancer. You have hormone ablation therapy for both these conditions, but there still isn't conclusive evidence of causation. Also, men can't get breast cancer if they don't have gyno.

Edit: Michael Scally MD is one of the leading steroids experts in the country. I am sure you know that as you have ventured over to ask him questions.  :Smilie:

----------


## Phased

> Tamoxifen and Rolaxifene have both been proven to reverse gynecomastia in pubescent males, but it takes months and months, not weeks.
> 
> Estrogen ablatation also causes breast cell death, which is why the most powerful AI we have at our disposal (Letro) works to reverse at time.


Did you see reversal plan I laid out for him with nolva and evista?

----------


## Phased

> Will the Tamoxifen and Rolaxifene affect libido in the reversal process? (Using "Phased" protocal)


No it will not, when I'm on tamoxifen I have more libido.

----------


## Swifto

> What is the confusion about? Check your "Why is it important to run an AI when on cycle?" if you want to talk about poor extrapolation, I wish you would provide a citation for "estrogen is important for AR sensitivity". Most, if not all studies in your thread, will be on females. This is the area of research, you will never find a perfect matching study and even if they would be in men, what gives? Individual variance can be large between males as well so I don't understand what you are getting at?
> 
> We have already covered "what science is" remember? I don't know why, first of all, you would dispute something just because it isn't tested in males, when you do the same thing. As well as, the scientists perform studies on animals and a lot of research is on females. If you want to try to converse about something I would be more than happy to oblige. Throwing a fit about something which you aren't even disputing, if you wish to dispute the figures that I provided that is fine. But, I know that you know, they are correct, I hope? LMAO
> 
> Anyway, Swifto, you are gonna have to catch me out on something else. You do know that "high estrogen" isn't correlated to breast cancer right? Just how "high testosterone " isn't correlated to prostate cancer. You have hormone ablation therapy for both these conditions, but there still isn't conclusive evidence of causation. Also, men can't get breast cancer if they don't have gyno.
> 
> Edit: Michael Scally MD is one of the leading steroids experts in the country. I am sure you know that as you have ventured over to ask him questions.


Stop rambling with nonsene and just answer the simple quesiton(s). Check the thread in

I didn't think you would be able to come up with any substance when making your claims. I'll ask again:

What data have you seen that shows this in males?

"Exmestane suppresses estrogen 85%"

"Arimidex 95%"

"Letro 98%"

C'mon you can do better than that Sworder. So your numbers are all on females, why dont you quote the numbers on males that are far more applicable? Or haven't you managed to find those to copy and paste yet?

Now, you finally claim to understand "what science" is. Have you seen the light?

Now you're contradicting yourself, your quite good at that actually. Before you couldn't seem to grasp the concept of estrogen playing a crucial role in sexual function in males and because I couldnt produce a study that was relivant, ie: lowering estrogen considerably/dramatically affecting labido, it doesnt or didn't exist in your (small) mind. 

Now what do we have... We have you arguing that most data on females IS RELIVENT to us males "as its all we have to go on". Your changing your stance to suit your argument.

----------


## Phased

This gentleman is on the road to recovery, do you think you guys could make a separate thread and hash it out there about this so the general public and person I am trying to help does not have to read through all of this?
I would really appreciate it.
Please and Thank you
Besten

----------


## Swifto

> This gentleman is on the road to recovery, do you think you guys could make a separate thread and hash it out there about this so the general public and person I am trying to help does not have to read through all of this?
> I would really appreciate it.
> Please and Thank you
> Besten


No, unfortunately not.

----------


## Matt

> Tamoxifen and Rolaxifene have both been proven to reverse gynecomastia in pubescent males, but it takes months and months, not weeks.
> 
> Estrogen ablatation also causes breast cell death, which is why the most powerful AI we have at our disposal (Letro) works to reverse at time.


That may well be the case mate, however nolva has crushed large sized lumps under my nipples in 3 weeks with a 3 week follow up of nolva at 10mgs daily no signs of it anymore...

----------


## Phased

> That may well be the case mate, however nolva has crushed large sized lumps under my nipples in 3 weeks with a 3 week follow up of nolva at 10mgs daily no signs of it anymore...


Good shit man..a true testimony

----------


## Randy_Mar

I can vouch for Nolva too! I swore by AI (Letro) to kill my gyno, because of all the reading I was doing online. Off and On letro well over a year, and spent $$$-hundreds. Pretty much little to no change. 

Then in the past month, tried switching it up to Tamox (thanks to suggestions from "Mickeyknox"), and FINALLY relief. With my personal experience, I do find a big difference between 10mg compared to 20mg ed. (20mg providing relief) - I'm scared to jump higher (40mg) to really see if it completely clears up. Hate for it to crush my libido. But "Phased", I know you said it shouldn't kill it, so I may jump my dosage.

----------


## RustedIron

Wow I haven't been receiving any notices via email for updates on this thread. Didn't realize it had been getting so much activity. Sorry for the delay in updates. 

I'm on day 12 now with 25mg Stane daily and 40mg Nolva daily. and the lump isn't getting bigger, but it's not really getting smaller either. I mean... you can't see it if I take my shirt off. I just feel it. The sensitivity has decreased. The touch is a soft puffiness with a small region of toughness directly behind the nipple. 

Not really any major negative side effects. Feel like my libido is fine. Occasional small headaches but nothing bothersome. I stay pretty hydrated. That's about all I got for now

----------


## RustedIron

So as SERM is doing it's job binding to receptors, what is happening to the tissue that has already formed? It dies off and just what.. dissolves? Should I be amping up my cardio to bring down BF%? 

Also, I've been reading more and more about how great Ralox is. *Phased* you've been my right hand man in all this and I appreciate you for it. You've recommended before that I just go ahead and take Ralox in addition to the Nolva and Stane. Do I really even need to keep taking Stane after 2 weeks? And should I just switch to Ralox after I run out of Nolva? Or go ahead and get it now in addition to Nolva. It just seems taking both might be overkill no?

----------


## Lemonada8

Nolva for me, pubertal Gyno had it for years! Did 2 cycles it grew accordingly then went back down but never away. Then started with 40mg nolva Ed for about 2 weeks untill I noticed a change in size (used pic and measured it to make sure) then continued 20mg Ed for the next 6 weeks... 2 years later the lump is still gone. Have some puffiness but nolva won't help that, lookin to get some dht gel to try and see if that works. 

Tamoxifen is the best for Gyno, rolax is a new drug with promising efficacy however.

----------


## RustedIron

> Nolva for me, pubertal Gyno had it for years! Did 2 cycles it grew accordingly then went back down but never away. Then started with 40mg nolva Ed for about 2 weeks untill I noticed a change in size (used pic and measured it to make sure) then continued 20mg Ed for the next 6 weeks... 2 years later the lump is still gone. Have some puffiness but nolva won't help that, lookin to get some dht gel to try and see if that works. 
> 
> Tamoxifen is the best for Gyno, rolax is a new drug with promising efficacy however.


Good stuff Lemonada8. How many cycles have you done total?

----------


## Wazz

Long~ but good read...

----------


## Lemonada8

> Good stuff Lemonada8. How many cycles have you done total?


ive done 2 cycles. test p and test p w/ winny. PLannin to do another one in the near future of test p and npp.

----------


## RustedIron

*QUICK UPDATE*: I've begun week 3 and reduced dosage to following

Nolva: 20mg every morning
Armoa: 10mg every night

----------


## Nfinitecc

Excuse my ignorance of terms but when you say 10/10/10/10 ED is that just 10mg daily? Or 40/40/20/20 ....40 mg for two days then 20mg daily from then on? I wasn't sure cause if that's the case why list 10 or 20 consecutive. Again sorry for my ignorance.

----------


## RustedIron

> Excuse my ignorance of terms but when you say 10/10/10/10 ED is that just 10mg daily? Or 40/40/20/20 ....40 mg for two days then 20mg daily from then on? I wasn't sure cause if that's the case why list 10 or 20 consecutive. Again sorry for my ignorance.


Not arrogant at all. Took me forever to find a simple answer. There should be a dictionary of terminology or something. Anyways, 10/10/10/10 ED represents your weeks. So 10 for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th week. 

So 40/40/20/20 means 40mg every day for weeks 1 and 2 and then 20mg everyday for weeks 3 and 4. Make sense?

----------


## Nfinitecc

Yes! Thanks for the response!

----------


## RustedIron

*UPDATE:* On day 19. I did miss last night's AI dose. I can't tell if I'm making progress or not, but it doesn't bother as much anymore. Still going at 10mg of Aroma and 20mg of Nolva everyday

----------


## RustedIron

Sucks Phased was banned!

----------


## RustedIron

Going on Week 3 now and I'm not seeing much improvement. It suddenly feels like it's reversing actually. Should I add on the Raloxifene? My shoulder is killing me and I'm wondering if it's the AI or SERM causing joint pain. Anybody out there?

----------


## RustedIron

Libido is dying. Joints hurting. Depression kicking in. Should I stop Aroma?

----------


## wmaousley

Im not gonna lie to you, I had developed gyno in my left nipple last year while on cycle and decided to complete my cycle, which i did. I didnt use any PCT meds as i didnt want any reactions to the gyno area, i simply went on a cutting diet over the past year and it has gone away by itself. Having said that I am sure if I do another buk cycle it may come back.

Just so you know I am on Nebido, this may not work for everyone, but it did for me and it was advised by a member of Kuwaits BB team.

----------


## Zeebo

any updates on how the aromasin /nolva combo is working for you?

----------


## RustedIron

> any updates on how the aromasin/nolva combo is working for you?


I finished the 4 weeks and am now done with taking anything, but I don't know man. It's definitely better. But it's not the same. There's still kind of tissue build up behind the nipple and it feels like the nipple is always hard. You can't tell from looking at it. Visually it's fine. Nothing embarrassing. I feel like at this point, I should just let nature take its course. 

Any thoughts fellas? Anybody else even reading this thread? Not sure if I should continue taking Nolva/Aroma until it's completely gone or should I add in something else?

----------


## Zeebo

If it was getting better IMO I would have kept taking it for at least 6 weeks, given that the sides weren't too bad. But if it's fine visually why bother? BTW what is your BF% at and has it fluctuated since you started treating your gyno?

My gyno is similar to how you described yours. What is making it really annoying to me is the puffiness of the nipple itself. I don't know if it is because of the lump pushing the nipple forward or because it is actually just puffy due to the gyno itself. I am tapering down from letro (which helped shrink the lump a little, I think? Pretty sure it was underdosed letro). Right now and waiting to get some nolva (will be about two days) and having trouble finding a source for aromasin so I will be running the nolva until I find one. Hopefully some more people will chime in with some success stories.

----------


## seriouslifter

so after all these posts, would letro at 2.5mg ED and nolv 10mg ED to combat gyno and block estrogen from growing gyno?

----------


## MickeyKnox

Oh good, my favorite thread.  :Icon Rolleyes:

----------


## RustedIron

> Oh good, my favorite thread.


 Welcome back buddy  :Smilie:

----------


## RustedIron

*UPDATE*: I have to admit... I have mixed feeling about the results. My nipple is still poofy to touch. Visually it's fine. But what bothers me is if it's now more susceptible to gyno in the future. Should I keep going with Nolva or just go natural and let the body do its thing? It's been a couple weeks after the last Nolva/Armoa dose

----------


## MickeyKnox

At this point, it would be helpful if you would provide a recap of what you have done so far and the results.  :Smilie:

----------


## RustedIron

*UPDATE and Bad News*
I may be wrong, but I feel PCT has probably been worse for me than most of the members on this site. Perhaps it was a terrible first cycle to begin with. 9 weeks Winny/Equipoise . Regardless, what's done is done and now almost 6 months later... I'm still suffering. 

I'll keep this post about Gyno, which has gotten worse for me. Here's a recap of where I am:

*RECAP*

*The Cycle (First ever)* 
9 Weeks of Winny/EQ. (Ended July 15th 2012)

*The PCT* (Began July 25th 2012 - 10 days after cycle)
You'll find my other post about headaches in the forums. Received a lot of hits. Turns out it was just an incredible amount of water retention causing my brain to swell against my skull that was causing the headaches. The Nolva and Clomid were just further irritating the headaches.

PCT lasted for 3 weeks and I just quit because I thought the headaches were caused solely by Nolva and/or Clomid. 

*The Gyno* (First noticed 10 weeks after end of cycle) 
It began with my right nipple... sensitive nipple. Nothing noticeable... but almost overnight poofiness came... and a hard marble sized piece of tissue appeared behind nipple. So I came to our glorious forums for help and guidance. Got all kinds of crazy tips and advice. So here's what I ended up doing 

*The Gyno Reversal Attempt #1* (Began October 10th, 2012) 
4 weeks reversal attempt: 
Aromasin 25/25/10/10 ED
Nolvadex 40/40/40/40 ED

*Day 7* of Gyno Reversal Attempt 
It seems to be working. Sensitivity subsiding

*Day 12*
progress seems to be slowing down. Lump is under control but not going away

*Day 19*
Not bothering me as much anymore. But still hard to tell if progress is being made

*Day 21*
Progress seems to be reversing. Poofiness returns. Shoulder joint pain intensifies 

*End of Gyno Reversal Attempt #1* (November 11, 2012) 
It's definitely better. But it's not the same. There's still kind of tissue build up behind the nipple and it feels like the nipple is always hard

*The Return of Gyno* (January 3rd, 2013)
All of a sudden... both nipples are poofy! WTF? I had no issues with my left nipple until just 2 days ago. I noticed both nipples now have marble sized hard tissue behind them with poofyness.

*My Questions*
Should I reattempt Gyno reversal? I'm at a lost gentlemen. I must admit, my weight lifting routine has plummeted since my cycle and shoulder pain started acting up. I've probably gained a good 8-10% BF in the last 5 months from lazyness and not eating right. The gyno and awful shoulder pain really depressed me. I was insanely ripped at the end of my cycle... but that was long gone. 

Terrible cycle. Terrible PCT. Terrible Gyno. 

Please help me out fellas. I'm at a loss.

----------


## Fllifter

> UPDATE and Bad News
> I may be wrong, but I feel PCT has probably been worse for me than most of the members on this site. Perhaps it was a terrible first cycle to begin with. 9 weeks Winny/Equipoise . Regardless, what's done is done and now almost 6 months later... I'm still suffering.
> 
> I'll keep this post about Gyno, which has gotten worse for me. Here's a recap of where I am:
> 
> RECAP
> 
> The Cycle (First ever) 
> 9 Weeks of Winny/EQ. (Ended July 15th 2012)
> ...


Blood work would be your best bet to see what exactly is going on. Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Good luck

----------


## RustedIron

> Blood work would be your best bet to see what exactly is going on. Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Good luck



Do you think I should get blood work done before attempting another gyno reversal plan?

----------


## RustedIron

Is this thread just too long to get noticed anymore? Time to start a new thread?

----------


## kingjames6

> Is this thread just too long to get noticed anymore? Time to start a new thread?




Hey OP, did the aromasin end up working for you? I am having a little bit of a problem with tenderness and puffiness.

----------


## RustedIron

For those keeping up with this thread, here's my latest blood test results: 

*TESTS*
*RESULT*
*UNITS*
*REFERENCE INTERVAL*

Testosterone, Serum
346
ng/dL
348-1197

Testosterone, Free
10.90
ng/dL
5.00-21.00

% Free Testosterone
3.15
%
1.50-4.20

Estradiol, Sensitive
12
pg/mL
3-70



Also, these were flags on the blood test but I'm not sure if they're relevant to my gyno.

*TESTS*
*RESULT*
*UNITS*
*REFERENCE INTERVAL*

Neutrophils
36
%
40-74

Lymphs
47
%
14-46

Monocytes
14
%
4-13

BUN
22
mg/dL
6-20

AST (SGOT)
50
IU/L
0-40

ALT (SGPT)
64
IU/L
0-44

----------


## slumchop

Im curious with all the exmestane talk why everyone recommends a straight into 25mg ED? Ive used aromasin and going right into 25mg ED has made me sick as hell, Ive always tapered up into this AI to avoid and minimalize the sides? but i dont see much mention of tapering into it

----------


## horse_boy

hey mate, what can i do about old gyno lumps, can i still use letro?

----------


## kelkel

I have not read this thread but a friend of mine with gyno issues just had great success with the Nolva / andractim combo.....saw him in person today actually and he is absolutely thrilled.

----------


## davep7

Hey Iron, just wondering what has happened since the last post !

----------


## EasyDoesIt

> I'm currently taking Aromasin /Nolva for my Gyno reversal. It's only been a couple weeks that I've noticed it. It's been 10 weeks since the end of my last cycle. 
> 
> Just curious if this is ok. Everyone gives Letro so much praise. I'm 2 days in with Aroma/Nolva and am wondering if I should switch to Letro or just keep on at it for 4 weeks? Anyone out there have success using Aromasin/Liquid Stane for their gyno?
> 
> Cheers


Letro IMO is best for gyno reversal if not serious case. If serious i don't think anything will work. Letro has been magnificent for me. I have only used ar-r letro. It's good to have around in case of emergency. I don't think you will reverse it with just aromasin and nolva. I have never had much success with nolva, but that's just me. I think anyone that has used Letro will give it a thumbs up.

----------

