# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  TRT - Self Administered?

## gbrice75

My first post in the HRT forum... /wave  :Wink: 

I am in the process of making an appt. with an endo - I have a script from my PC to do so. My questions is - if prescribed HRT, is it standard practice to allow one to self administer? If not standard, is it 'allowed' or acceptable in some cases? This office isn't particularly close to my home, and I'd never be able to make it there once a week during their business hours, let along twice a week which would be my ideal dosage timing.

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## bass

hey GBrice, sorry to see you in this section, but glad there is TRT to keep you healthy. yes usually they give you the meds and you administer yourself. keep us posted as to what your doc will do. welcome to the adult section!  :Smilie:

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## warchild

hey brice. yep absolutely. I get my test cyp/adex at walgreens and have my gf inject me. pm if you want more info.

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## jdw999

Same here. Got my first injection at the dr office, since then I either stab myself or have the wife unit do it for me. Seems less painful to do it myself though. Hmmm, wonder if she enjoys my pain?

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## HRTstudent

> My first post in the HRT forum... /wave 
> 
> I am in the process of making an appt. with an endo - I have a script from my PC to do so. My questions is - if prescribed HRT, is it standard practice to allow one to self administer? If not standard, is it 'allowed' or acceptable in some cases? This office isn't particularly close to my home, and I'd never be able to make it there once a week during their business hours, let along twice a week which would be my ideal dosage timing.


A lot of guys actually get shots in their docs office... and pay a copay for each visit!

Insanity to me.

Any good doc will let you self inject testosterone because it's pretty damn easy, safe, and much less of a burden to the patient and medical system. However, the average endo knows jack shit about male TRT!  :Smilie:

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## kelkel

Welcome to our world gb! And like Bass said, sorry to see you here. Most times here it seems the guys end up having to educate their doc's themselves regarding proper protocols, etc. Twice a week is awesome btw. As long as he gives you the proper amount "to go" then how you do it is your call! If I may ask, what pushed you over the hump to our world specifically?

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## steroid.com 1

Great AVI Gbrice!

BTW, if you do get put on a TRT protocol make sure to discuss HPTA suppression and the need for hCG to keep it in tact.

And don't forget the most likely use of an Aromatase Inhibitor.

And no matter what no injections once every two weeks...needs to be weekly or twice weekly...think half life. 

Welcome here bro!

gd

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## JohnnyVegas

I have been self-injecting from the start. My doctor never protested me doing it myself, but he is an anti-aging/TRT/HCG diet doctor. Pretty progressive. It will be interesting to see what your endo says.

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## Psychoeric210

I'm part of the "insanity" I pay a copay each time, and I get injected EOW. My levels are good now, but took a lot longer than it should have. Take time to find a good endo, mine sucks, and my reason was because of insurance issues. Good Luck, and wish ya the best!

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## zaggahamma

i'd like to see the results of that question actually...ive read many of posts where guys said they had to go in to the doctors for shots but never really find out if they eventually graduate to self inject or not....i know we always promote that for the just the hassel of going there so often....

hrt just stated that they have the nerve to charge an office visit each time...so your paying a copay...so the insurance is paying each visit...wow

i also have been self inject from the get go since graduating from gel(s)

keep us posted bro

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## Psychoeric210

They will not let me self inject. I've brought it up. sucks. Just waiting on my order to come in so I can save some money. It all depends on the docs, insurance, and how much money you have in your pocket IMHO.

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## bass

> i'd like to see the results of that question actually...ive read many of posts where guys said they had to go in to the doctors for shots but never really find out if they eventually graduate to self inject or not....i know we always promote that for the just the hassel of going there so often....
> 
> hrt just stated that they have the nerve to charge an office visit each time...so your paying a copay...so the insurance is paying each visit...wow
> 
> i also have been self inject from the get go since graduating from gel(s)
> 
> keep us posted bro


maybe GBrice can start a poll in this thread!

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## jdw999

Do y'all think it's a $ issue or that the doc is concerned that we might abuse the fact that we get test with a script? I know I have been stocking up, just in case. My doc wrote a script for 1 vial a month, 1 vial lasts me for about 3 months. I have 2 unopened in the medicine cabinet and have 3 refills remaining.....

JD

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## zaggahamma

> Do y'all think it's a $ issue or that the doc is concerned that we might abuse the fact that we get test with a script? I know I have been stocking up, just in case. My doc wrote a script for 1 vial a month, 1 vial lasts me for about 3 months. I have 2 unopened in the medicine cabinet and have 3 refills remaining.....
> 
> JD


this has always been a scenario/concern

in my 6 years it seems as if more concerns are through pharmacy(s)

i used to be able to refill a 10ml vial every month even though the dose/amount in vial werent even close and therefore have some for rainy days

the last 12 months i've been only able to fill about half that...something like a vial every 2 months....

got a new script a month ago and am actually filling it this week with a new pharmacy and going to see how this one goes

its hit or miss

some can still get each month and some pharmacys count every drop

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## gbrice75

> hey GBrice, sorry to see you in this section, but glad there is TRT to keep you healthy. yes usually they give you the meds and you administer yourself. keep us posted as to what your doc will do. welcome to the adult section!


Will do. I called yesterday and couldn't get an appt. with this endo until October, WTF!!! I scheduled an appt. with a nurse practicioner in the meantime, but couldn't even get THAT appt. until late August. Sick. I'm going to look for a different one in the meantime, I don't want to wait that long, only to be shot down with my luck.




> hey brice. yep absolutely. I get my test cyp/adex at walgreens and have my gf inject me. pm if you want more info.


Good to know... i'll shoot you a PM if/when the time comes. *fingers crossed*




> Same here. Got my first injection at the dr office, since then I either stab myself or have the wife unit do it for me. Seems less painful to do it myself though. Hmmm, wonder if she enjoys my pain?


 :LOL:  You need to record her doing it, then watch it back and take note of her face... 




> A lot of guys actually get shots in their docs office... and pay a copay for each visit!
> 
> Insanity to me.
> 
> Any good doc will let you self inject testosterone because it's pretty damn easy, safe, and much less of a burden to the patient and medical system. However, the average endo knows jack shit about male TRT!


This is what i'm most afraid of... I want somebody who 'gets it'!




> Welcome to our world gb! And like Bass said, sorry to see you here. Most times here it seems the guys end up having to educate their doc's themselves regarding proper protocols, etc. Twice a week is awesome btw. As long as he gives you the proper amount "to go" then how you do it is your call! If I may ask, what pushed you over the hump to our world specifically?


Well, my initial interest was piqued mainly due to vanity... and a little self pity. I can't seem to gain any decent muscle beyond where i'm at now (and this just CAN'T be it!!!!), and i'm having a harder time than ever dropping bodyfat. The fact is i'm almost 37, and spent my best years being a fat fvck, ruining my metabolism and hormonal balance (i.e. insulin resistance up the ass, etc), and as a result i'm far below the curve. I'm hoping to level the playing field a bit. However, upon researching, I've come to realize I suffer from a lot of the symptoms of low test - low libido, irritable, never really feel 'good' (i.e. no sense of wellbeing), borderline depressed... and it's been this way for a long time. So now, my goal is much more than physical with regards to TRT.




> Great AVI Gbrice!


Thank you brother!




> BTW, if you do get put on a TRT protocol make sure to discuss HPTA suppression and the need for hCG to keep it in tact.
> 
> And don't forget the most likely use of an Aromatase Inhibitor.


Definitely. I see most people using adex with TRT. What are your (any of you) thoughts on Aromasin ? I've used both (not together) on cycles and seemed to have good results in either case. Just wondering why adex appears to be the AI of choice?




> And no matter what no injections once every two weeks...needs to be weekly or twice weekly...think half life. 
> 
> Welcome here bro!
> 
> gd


I'm looking at twice weekly for sure. I want stable blood levels, not looking for the up and down thing.




> I have been self-injecting from the start. My doctor never protested me doing it myself, but he is an anti-aging/TRT/HCG diet doctor. Pretty progressive. It will be interesting to see what your endo says.


Hmm... how do I find one of these progressive docs? I mean... what do I search for? What is your docs primary field - is he/she an endo?




> I'm part of the "insanity" I pay a copay each time, and I get injected EOW. My levels are good now, but took a lot longer than it should have. Take time to find a good endo, mine sucks, and my reason was because of insurance issues. Good Luck, and wish ya the best!


Thank you brother!




> i'd like to see the results of that question actually...ive read many of posts where guys said they had to go in to the doctors for shots but never really find out if they eventually graduate to self inject or not....i know we always promote that for the just the hassel of going there so often....
> 
> hrt just stated that they have the nerve to charge an office visit each time...so your paying a copay...so the insurance is paying each visit...wow
> 
> i also have been self inject from the get go since graduating from gel(s)
> 
> keep us posted bro


Will do. No fvcking way am I going there every week, or even every other week. I'll quit working out before I do that!




> maybe GBrice can start a poll in this thread!


Maybe I will!  :Big Grin:

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## zaggahamma

thats when i started gb...36/37 ...

and describe it like you did...gains werent equalling what i was putting in

your gonna love it

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## gbrice75

^^ I don't want to get too excited, because i'm really worried that i'll be turned down.  :Frown:

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## Noles12

My father goes to the doc for only one reason. It is much cheaper in his case. 

He goes EOW and pays a small copay. In comparison to the cost of his medication through his insurance it is much cheaper. The insurance will not cover it

He has stopped though because he is too lazy to go EOW. For the life of me I do not understand why he would want to feel the way he does when off. He says how he needs to go back but just hates having to go and wait. I try to get him to understand he is complaining about a 10 minute wait twice a month for something that benefits him in so many ways

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## gbrice75

^^ In my case, the docs office is about 30 mins away (assuming I wind up with the doc I mentioned) and their office hours are all during my work hours... once in a while would be fine, but even twice a month would become problematic.

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## Noles12

> ^^ In my case, the docs office is about 30 mins away (assuming I wind up with the doc I mentioned) and their office hours are all during my work hours... once in a while would be fine, but even twice a month would become problematic.


His issue is somewhat the same. The doc is 20 minutes from his house and office. They are only open during his working hours though he works in sales and pretty much sets his daily schedule so it really shouldnt be an issue for him. I can see how it would be problematic in your case if you do not have the flexibility

His cost per vial through the pharmacy is outrageous

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## jdw999

> His issue is somewhat the same. The doc is 20 minutes from his house and office. They are only open during his working hours though he works in sales and pretty much sets his daily schedule so it really shouldnt be an issue for him. I can see how it would be problematic in your case if you do not have the flexibility
> 
> *His cost per vial through the pharmacy is outrageous*


If I had to pay full price, it's still under $100 a vial for me. Test cyp 200/10.

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## JohnnyVegas

> Hmm... how do I find one of these progressive docs? I mean... what do I search for? What is your docs primary field - is he/she an endo?


I believe he is an internist. He went into "lifestyle medicine" (as I like to call it) as a business decision. HGH, TRT, Botox, HCG diet, skin fillers, etc. Offering things like the HCG diet would normally make me think he was a quack, but I started talking to him about business and quickly realized he really knows what he is doing on the hormone side. 

I would think guys like him would be easy to find at an anti-aging clinic or place that does the other things mentioned above.

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## warchild

> ^^ I don't want to get too excited, because i'm really worried that i'll be turned down.


dont get discouraged if you get shot down. I had one doc shoot me down and the next doc started me rite up on injections when I was 25. Been with him for 4 yrs now and he specializes in trt and my insurance covers everything but the hcg .

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## steroid.com 1

If you're in NJ you might want to go see Dr. Johanan Rand...he's one of the best.

http://healthyagingmedicalcenters.com/

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## SEOINAGE

my first shot at the doctors, that I even administered myself, was more money than 3 months of test.

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## gbrice75

> I believe he is an internist. He went into "lifestyle medicine" (as I like to call it) as a business decision. HGH, TRT, Botox, HCG diet, skin fillers, etc. Offering things like the HCG diet would normally make me think he was a quack, but I started talking to him about business and quickly realized he really knows what he is doing on the hormone side. 
> 
> I would think guys like him would be easy to find at an anti-aging clinic or place that does the other things mentioned above.


Thanks bro, i'll look into them.




> dont get discouraged if you get shot down. I had one doc shoot me down and the next doc started me rite up on injections when I was 25. Been with him for 4 yrs now and he specializes in trt and my insurance covers everything but the hcg.


Awesome!!! HCG and bact. water is cheap enough.




> If you're in NJ you might want to go see Dr. Johanan Rand...he's one of the best.
> 
> http://healthyagingmedicalcenters.com/


I am in NJ... thanks for the recommendation, i'll check him out right away!  :Wink:

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## gbrice75

> If you're in NJ you might want to go see Dr. Johanan Rand...he's one of the best.
> 
> http://healthyagingmedicalcenters.com/


Checked out the website and it looked very promising, exactly along the lines of what i'm looking for. 

Just called their office and spoke with one of his associates. Unfortunately, they are a non-insurance based clinic, so nothing other than the bloodwork would be covered. It'd be a $250 consultation fee, and then assuming I get on a program (with these guys I would imagine changes are 99.9% in my favor) i'd be responsible for $150-$200 per month, out of pocket. It's an expense I just cannot afford right now with a 9 month old baby at home. Furthermore, my wife is already VERY skeptical (mainly due to my cycling behind her back in the past)... even if insurance covered 100% of this, it still wouldn't be a closed deal. 

I'm up against a lot here guys... and to be honest, for the first time in my life, I am considering giving up the whole lifestyle... this is pretty much my last ditch effort.

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## Ashop

> My first post in the HRT forum... /wave 
> 
> I am in the process of making an appt. with an endo - I have a script from my PC to do so. My questions is - if prescribed HRT, is it standard practice to allow one to self administer? If not standard, is it 'allowed' or acceptable in some cases? This office isn't particularly close to my home, and I'd never be able to make it there once a week during their business hours, let along twice a week which would be my ideal dosage timing.


A good doc will give you a 10ml script,,,have a nurse show you how to inject,,,then send you on your way.
Explain to you doctor the trouble in making frequent appointments,,gas,,time,,work,,insurance etc....

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## warchild

> Checked out the website and it looked very promising, exactly along the lines of what i'm looking for. 
> 
> Just called their office and spoke with one of his associates. Unfortunately, they are a non-insurance based clinic, so nothing other than the bloodwork would be covered. It'd be a $250 consultation fee, and then assuming I get on a program (with these guys I would imagine changes are 99.9% in my favor) i'd be responsible for $150-$200 per month, out of pocket. It's an expense I just cannot afford right now with a 9 month old baby at home. Furthermore, my wife is already VERY skeptical (mainly due to my cycling behind her back in the past)... even if insurance covered 100% of this, it still wouldn't be a closed deal. 
> 
> I'm up against a lot here guys... and to be honest, for the first time in my life, I am considering giving up the whole lifestyle... this is pretty much my last ditch effort.



how would you and your wife feel about the gel or even the patch? my buddy switches from injections to patches every few months and he likes them. women tend to freak when needles are involved...

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## gbrice75

> A good doc will give you a 10ml script,,,have a nurse show you how to inject,,,then send you on your way.
> Explain to you doctor the trouble in making frequent appointments,,gas,,time,,work,,insurance etc....


I definitely will. I'm just happy to see it's not an out of the ordinary request, seems quite common actually.




> how would you and your wife feel about the gel or even the patch? my buddy switches from injections to patches every few months and he likes them. women tend to freak when needles are involved...


Meh... I have a friend who was on Androgel ... but from what I read about it, about 10% actually hits your bloodstream after absorption through the skin? Seems like injections would be the most 'bang for your buck'. 

As for my wife - it's not so much the needles that freak her out (although they do carry that stigma thanks mainly to heroin addicts), it has more to do with the sour taste that has been left as a result of my 'secret' cycling... which happened to involve needles.

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## warchild

> I definitely will. I'm just happy to see it's not an out of the ordinary request, seems quite common actually.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh... I have a friend who was on Androgel ... but from what I read about it, about 10% actually hits your bloodstream after absorption through the skin? Seems like injections would be the most 'bang for your buck'. 
> 
> As for my wife - it's not so much the needles that freak her out (although they do carry that stigma thanks mainly to heroin addicts), it has more to do with the sour taste that has been left as a result of my 'secret' cycling... which happened to involve needles.


sounds like you made your bed with that one. yea androgel sucks. my doc even says so. injections all the way. hopefully you can get her on board and educate her on the dif between steroids and trt.

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## FONZY007

Don't give up GB, i went to my gp and he sent me to my endo. My endo didn't know shít, I was with him for 5 years until he kicked me to the curb lol. So I went back to the GP and showed him my vial and prescription that is writing on the box and he was like I'll call it in.. Nice fvck my endo

You will feel better, without it I had a hard time with fat and energy

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## gbrice75

> sounds like you made your bed with that one. yea androgel sucks. my doc even says so. injections all the way. hopefully you can get her on board and educate her on the dif between steroids and trt.


Pretty much (made my bed). We talked a bit yesterday and she is willing to at least consider and learn a bit about this... and yes, big big difference between TRT and cycling. 




> Don't give up GB, i went to my gp and he sent me to my endo. My endo didn't know shít, I was with him for 5 years until he kicked me to the curb lol. So I went back to the GP and showed him my vial and prescription that is writing on the box and he was like I'll call it in.. Nice fvck my endo
> 
> You will feel better, without it I had a hard time with fat and energy


Thanks for your support brother. I am really looking forward to feeling better all around!! I NEED this!!

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## kelkel

gb see if some of the search avenues on the Finding A TRT Physician sticky are of any help to you.

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## Shol'va

Gbrice you've come way too far now to give it up. It's guys like you I look up to on here and gives me my inspiration to bulk up, uhum, any way possible. And I saw what it did for you and Haz and the others and see how far you've come and how it makes you feel about yourself. So I hope you can get on the TRT bandwagon with your wife's approval and be able to also blast and cruise with the left overs from the monthly subscriptions of 10ml test. So lets see now at 10 ml and 200 mg per ml and 125 weekly maintenance shots how much is left over in each bottle per month.. :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:  Some of the guys at my gym, that's what they do and by saving the leftovers they have enough to do a decent blast 2 to 3 times a year. Of course it's not Tren but hey you know where to get that when you save up enough hiding money. And Dammit she doesn't need to know everything about the situation now does she? After all a married man's entitled to a few secrets. Hey I'm just tryin to help you see the light here.

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## Shol'va

> My first post in the HRT forum... /wave 
> 
> *I am in the process of making an appt. with an endo - I have a script from my PC to do so. My questions is - if prescribed HRT, is it standard practice to allow one to self administer?* If not standard, is it 'allowed' or acceptable in some cases? This office isn't particularly close to my home, and I'd never be able to make it there once a week during their business hours, let along twice a week which would be my ideal dosage timing.


What you might want to do to save yourself some time and grief is call around to different Endo's and ask them if the Doctor there prescribes testosterone injections for male patients with low T or only the gel to sort out those that won't prescribe you shots. And then go to the one's who prescribe the shots and tell them some bunk story about how your wife is a nurse at a local family practice and she will be administering your shots at home to save you the weekly trips to his office and tying up his time. It's a win win. Man you wouldn't believe all the tricks I learn at the gym by talking to the older guys there on TRT. When I have to go on it I'm ready with my story to tell the doc in order to get my own supply. But don't tell anyone though. lol

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## Brohim

> Checked out the website and it looked very promising, exactly along the lines of what i'm looking for. 
> 
> Just called their office and spoke with one of his associates. Unfortunately, they are a non-insurance based clinic, so nothing other than the bloodwork would be covered. It'd be a $250 consultation fee, and then assuming I get on a program (with these guys I would imagine changes are 99.9% in my favor) i'd be responsible for $150-$200 per month, out of pocket. It's an expense I just cannot afford right now with a 9 month old baby at home. Furthermore, my wife is already VERY skeptical (mainly due to my cycling behind her back in the past)... even if insurance covered 100% of this, it still wouldn't be a closed deal. 
> 
> I'm up against a lot here guys... and to be honest, for the first time in my life, I am considering giving up the whole lifestyle... this is pretty much my last ditch effort.



What are your test #'s? You don't need to give up the lifestyle just maybe tone it down some. Dont' worry about gaining muscle but continue to workout and eat a balanced diet.

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## gbrice75

> gb see if some of the search avenues on the Finding A TRT Physician sticky are of any help to you.


Thanks Kel... hadn't noticed the section! 




> Gbrice you've come way too far now to give it up. It's guys like you I look up to on here and gives me my inspiration to bulk up, uhum, any way possible. And I saw what it did for you and Haz and the others and see how far you've come and how it makes you feel about yourself. So I hope you can get on the TRT bandwagon with your wife's approval and be able to also blast and cruise with the left overs from the monthly subscriptions of 10ml test. So lets see now at 10 ml and 200 mg per ml and 125 weekly maintenance shots how much is left over in each bottle per month..   Some of the guys at my gym, that's what they do and by saving the leftovers they have enough to do a decent blast 2 to 3 times a year. Of course it's not Tren but hey you know where to get that when you save up enough hiding money. *And Dammit she doesn't need to know everything about the situation now does she? After all a married man's entitled to a few secrets. Hey I'm just tryin to help you see the light here*.


First - DAMN!! Haven't seen/talked to you in forever! How are you?

Second - thanks for your support and kind words bro. Re: the bold - I want to be 100% on the up and up with my wife. I owe her that much after what I've put her through, and the fact that she stuck with me through recent hard times. Living in a dishonest marriage can bring no good. I learned my lesson the hard way. I see much clearer now and have my priorities in order. I care about her and my son more than myself, therefore if I had to give this all up for them, i'd do it without a second thought. She's willing to listen and learn about TRT; that's the most I can ask for at this point, and a great start.




> What you might want to do to save yourself some time and grief is call around to different Endo's and ask them if the Doctor there prescribes testosterone injections for male patients with low T or only the gel to sort out those that won't prescribe you shots. And then go to the one's who prescribe the shots and tell them some bunk story about how your wife is a nurse at a local family practice and she will be administering your shots at home to save you the weekly trips to his office and tying up his time. It's a win win. Man you wouldn't believe all the tricks I learn at the gym by talking to the older guys there on TRT. When I have to go on it I'm ready with my story to tell the doc in order to get my own supply. But don't tell anyone though. lol


lol, appreciate the suggestions - i'll have to start coming up with a story! 




> What are your test #'s? You don't need to give up the lifestyle just maybe tone it down some. Dont' worry about gaining muscle but continue to workout and eat a balanced diet.


Don't have them in front of me, but tbh i'm pretty sure I wasn't tested properly, i.e. I have results for serum test - 586 (348-1197) but don't see total/free anywhere.

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## gbrice75

Update:

I made an appt. with a doc for Tuesday 7/3. It's not a clinic per se, and he's not an endo as far as I know, but specializes in HRT. I knew I found the right guy when the conversation went something like:
_
ME: I have a few questions. First, do you deal with hormone replacement therapy?

DOC: Yes I do.

ME: Great. Do you work with insurance carriers with regards to this type of treatment?

DOC: ... ummm.... hmmm... well you could... hmmm... let me think for a minute.... well see.... hmmm... what we could do is.... hmmm.... wait a minute - are you asking about testosterone ? 

ME: Yes, exactly.

DOC: OH!!! Forgive me, for some reason I thought you were asking about growth hormone !!!! 

ME: Haha, no!!!

DOC: Ok, well, that's easy!!! I've treated hundreds of patients for TRT._

Anyway, my point being if this guy was even considering prescribing me growth hormone after 30 seconds on the phone, he's probably a good starting point. He went on to tell me we'd schedule a consultation and bloodwork. He said that if results were to indicate I have hypogonadism, he would write me a prescription to start treatment. He has obviously done this quite a bit. 

So, I go for the appt. this Tuesday, and will schedule bloodwork at a lab. Both will be covered by insurance obviously, it's the damn treatment itself that still worries me. He said that hypogonadism is a medical condition, and as such, insurance SHOULD cover it - but I don't know that they would. 

I asked if I had to come into the office for treatment, or if he'd let me self administer. He said he would definitely let me self administer, but wouldn't give me carte blanche; i.e. I would have to come back from time to time for routine monitoring and/or bloodwork. Obviously, I wouldn't want it any other way.

The only issue is I kind of recall him saying in summary that if I turn out to have hypogonadism, he'd prescribe me a patch, or gel. I think during my consultation, I have to make clear that the only treatment i'm interested in is injections as from my research and personal friends i've spoken with, the patches, gels et. al. aren't worth it, and are inferior to injections. 

I will also want to discuss (I hope he brings it up as it will show he really knows his shit) running an AI ancillary as well as HCG - fertility is a big issue for me as my wife and I want to have at least one more kid within the next 12 mos. Hopefully that's not a deal breaker (would like your collective thoughts on that).

So, wish me luck!! If this guy doesn't work out, I have some other names and will make some calls next week. Hopefully this will be the only stop I need... and HOPEFULLY insurance will cover it in some way, shape or form, because if not, that IS a deal breaker for me!  :Frown:

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## bass

don't back down, simply lay it all out on the table and make sure you get the injections, AI and hCG . best of luck to you GB, please keep us posted.

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## HRTstudent

How the hell were you able to talk to a doctor on the phone?...

AND not even being a patient... lol I am being totally cynical here but that is odd/suspicious as hell (to actually talk to the practicing doc on a cold phone call)! ROFL!

Of note... one of the contraindications of TRT is actually wanting to conceive in the next year. That fits you perfectly so why not just put it off until you conceive? having a kid is far more important than what you said was mainly vanity reasons for starting TRT. Thats just my personal opinion.

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## gbrice75

> don't back down, simply lay it all out on the table and make sure you get the injections, AI and hCG. best of luck to you GB, please keep us posted.


Thanks brother, I will most definitely keep this thread updated. Fingers crossed for good things...




> How the hell were you able to talk to a doctor on the phone?...
> 
> AND not even being a patient... lol I am being totally cynical here but that is odd/suspicious as hell (to actually talk to the practicing doc on a cold phone call)! ROFL!


lol, i'm with you... it does seem a little shady but i'm less concerned with how shady his practice is, and more concerned with what his knowledge is - and so far, he seems to know what he's talking about. I'll have a much better idea post-consultation. 

I literally called and he answered, lol!! BUT - I had to call on 2 separate occasions (scheduling) after that initial call, and both times got a receptionist - so maybe it was just a freak occurance. *shrug*




> Of note... one of the contraindications of TRT is actually wanting to conceive in the next year. That fits you perfectly so why not just put it off until you conceive? having a kid is far more important than what you said was mainly vanity reasons for starting TRT. Thats just my personal opinion.


I want to clarify - my initial interest in TRT was vanity reasons, however as I learned more, I realized I have many of the symptoms of low test / andropause :

depression (have been borderline depressed for many years, but perhaps I've always had sub-par test??)
lethargic (almost all the time)
low libido 
ED (kind of embarrassing to admit, but at times, maintaining wood has been an issue)
low muscle mass (vanity, but still an indication)
trouble losing bodyfat (same as above)
etc etc

Is it 100% proven that TRT will have a negative impact on sperm count/male fertility? Will running HCG counteract that, and if so, to what degree, in general? Is there anything more appropriate than HCG? 

Yes, I could definitely hold off, having another kid or two is light years a priority over this. I have just been looking forward to feeling better, but I can wait if I have to. I just can never get a definitive answer on this topic... I have friends who are on TRT and have all knocked up their significant other during treatment.

----------


## warchild

> Thanks brother, I will most definitely keep this thread updated. Fingers crossed for good things...
> 
> 
> 
> lol, i'm with you... it does seem a little shady but i'm less concerned with how shady his practice is, and more concerned with what his knowledge is - and so far, he seems to know what he's talking about. I'll have a much better idea post-consultation. 
> 
> I literally called and he answered, lol!! BUT - I had to call on 2 separate occasions (scheduling) after that initial call, and both times got a receptionist - so maybe it was just a freak occurance. *shrug*
> 
> 
> ...



No trt is NOT 100% on killing sperm counts. You'll need a sperm count for that. Yes HCG can help with fertility. Cant really tell you what degree because everybody reacts different. I run 1000ius weekly for a month every 4 months. HMG is way stronger for male fertility and I myself will be checking into it soon enough.

----------


## warchild

on a side note. dont admit to this doc about prior aas use. if your insurance gets wind of this, then they could deny coverage. make them think its hypogonadism. thats what mine thinks and its all covered minus hcg . hope this helps brice

----------


## gbrice75

> No trt is NOT 100% on killing sperm counts. You'll need a sperm count for that. Yes HCG can help with fertility. Cant really tell you what degree because everybody reacts different. I run 1000ius weekly for a month every 4 months. HMG is way stronger for male fertility and I myself will be checking into it soon enough.





> on a side note. dont admit to this doc about prior aas use. if your insurance gets wind of this, then they could deny coverage. make them think its hypogonadism. thats what mine thinks and its all covered minus hcg. hope this helps brice


Thanks for the info and tips bro... no plans to admit any past AAS usage. Will definitely look into HMG, been reading up on it lately anyway as I research this further. 

PS - love the avy!

----------


## warchild

thnx man! good luck and keep me posted. going on trt for me was a good choice, really turned my life around.

----------


## HRTstudent

There are no 100% in medicine my good man  :Smilie: 

Never forget that!

However, some people are able to have kids while on TRT, but it does not help your odds! Thats why they say to wait or to try alternative therapies, mentinoed prior. Starting TRT and trying to have kids is basically setting yourself up for even more problems or exacerbating the ones you currently have. 

What happens if/when you cant conceive? More stress, more depression, etc.
What if you cant figure out your E2 for 6 months? Definitely more erection problems, libido could be far worse, then of course subjective symptoms get worse.

I think that a lot of people get sucked into TRT as a quick fix. But my personal experience and what I notice is that for most people it is slow. Some effects happen in months, but overall, its a slow'ish process. And that is even if you have a decent doc who knows what they are doing. I did not have that unfortunately and TRT had me worse off for many months before seeing any positive outcome.

----------


## gbrice75

> thnx man! good luck and keep me posted. going on trt for me was a good choice, *really turned my life around.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Nice to hear this bro. Care to elaborate? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great info as always HRT, you're doing good things around here, we're lucky to have you.  :Wink: 

On another note - I had to reschedule tonight's appt. for next Tuesday. I scheduled it completely forgetting about the holiday... there are fireworks tonight and I want to be there with the little guy for his first 4th of July... so, I have to put my own stuff on the back burner. That means another week of suffering through the gym (because really, I feel i'm suffering at this point - I was so close to quitting this morning, it's not even funny anymore), etc. I realize TRT won't turn this around overnight as HRT pointed out, however I believe just knowing i'm on the road to recovery will help brighten up my attitude and outlook a bit.

----------


## gbrice75

Finally had my 'consultation' with the doc last night. I emphasize 'consultation' because it was a major strike out. The guy was a total quack. About 70 years old, and looked like the doctor in Cannonball Run (remember Jack Elam in that movie!?!). 

I expressed my concern about infertility, and he was VERY assuring that I had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to worry about. Imagine if I didn't know any better and took his careless advice. No mention of HCG , HMG, etc. mind you - just that I had nothing to worry about. He actually told me that I'd be MORE fertile because i'd be having sex more often!!! Wha- wha- WHAT!?!?!? Exactly how does the frequency of sex have any bearing on fertility? That was all I needed to hear before I couldn't wait to get outta there. To make matters worse, he was planning on prescribing me (assuming I qualify) Androgel . When I expressed that the only treatment i'd be interested in is injectables, he told me he wouldn't prescribe that, it's not at a point where it's 'safe' for treatment (BS), that there's no way to self-administer and injection (again, bs) and there is no proper way to dose (bs bs bs). 

The good news is it wasn't all in vain; I got the script for bloodwork which is what i'll need no matter who I see. I'm going to request the lab send me a copy of the bloodwork (because as it stands now, they will send the doc the results and he'll call me to come back and go over it with him... and I'm done with him). Then i'll schedule another appt. and let the new doc know I have recent bloodwork and would just need to review it with him/her. I will of course post it up here first, because if you guys don't see any abnormalities, there's no point in me pursuing this with a doc (and subsequently paying for office visits).

Strike 1!!!

----------


## zaggahamma

sorry it didnt go well

u must have needed a rx for bloodwork for insurance purposes

----------


## warchild

> Finally had my 'consultation' with the doc last night. I emphasize 'consultation' because it was a major strike out. The guy was a total quack. About 70 years old, and looked like the doctor in Cannonball Run (remember Jack Elam in that movie!?!). 
> 
> I expressed my concern about infertility, and he was VERY assuring that I had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to worry about. Imagine if I didn't know any better and took his careless advice. No mention of HCG , HMG, etc. mind you - just that I had nothing to worry about. He actually told me that I'd be MORE fertile because i'd be having sex more often!!! Wha- wha- WHAT!?!?!? Exactly how does the frequency of sex have any bearing on fertility? That was all I needed to hear before I couldn't wait to get outta there. To make matters worse, he was planning on prescribing me (assuming I qualify) Androgel . When I expressed that the only treatment i'd be interested in is injectables, he told me he wouldn't prescribe that, it's not at a point where it's 'safe' for treatment (BS), that there's no way to self-administer and injection (again, bs) and there is no proper way to dose (bs bs bs). 
> 
> The good news is it wasn't all in vain; I got the script for bloodwork which is what i'll need no matter who I see. I'm going to request the lab send me a copy of the bloodwork (because as it stands now, they will send the doc the results and he'll call me to come back and go over it with him... and I'm done with him). Then i'll schedule another appt. and let the new doc know I have recent bloodwork and would just need to review it with him/her. I will of course post it up here first, because if you guys don't see any abnormalities, there's no point in me pursuing this with a doc (and subsequently paying for office visits).
> 
> Strike 1!!!


that will happen. took me a few times to find an educated doctor. keep looking. the other doctor will more than likely want you to get another set of labs also.

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## gbrice75

^^ ugh, I hope not. I don't want to keep going back for bloodwork. I have a high deductible insurance plan - a $5,000 deductible. However, my company pays the first $4,000 of that deductible. Once I reach that $4,000, i'm responsible out of pocket for the next $1,000 before regular benefits 'kick in'. So obviously it's in my interest to spend as little as possible.

----------


## zaggahamma

hopefully the plan is free to have?

i sometimes feel better off paying cash

----------


## gbrice75

It's free for me, but at the moment I have my wife and son on the plan who are not free. 

If I could afford it all, i'd pay cash but as I understand it, TRT can be expensive.

----------


## bass

> Finally had my 'consultation' with the doc last night. I emphasize 'consultation' because it was a major strike out. The guy was a total quack. About 70 years old, and looked like the doctor in Cannonball Run (remember Jack Elam in that movie!?!). 
> 
> I expressed my concern about infertility, and he was VERY assuring that I had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to worry about. Imagine if I didn't know any better and took his careless advice. No mention of HCG , HMG, etc. mind you - just that I had nothing to worry about. *He actually told me that I'd be MORE fertile because i'd be having sex more often*!!! Wha- wha- WHAT!?!?!? Exactly how does the frequency of sex have any bearing on fertility? That was all I needed to hear before I couldn't wait to get outta there. To make matters worse, he was planning on prescribing me (assuming I qualify) Androgel . When I expressed that the only treatment i'd be interested in is injectables, he told me he wouldn't prescribe that, it's not at a point where it's 'safe' for treatment (BS), that there's no way to self-administer and injection (again, bs) and there is no proper way to dose (bs bs bs). 
> 
> The good news is it wasn't all in vain; I got the script for bloodwork which is what i'll need no matter who I see. I'm going to request the lab send me a copy of the bloodwork (because as it stands now, they will send the doc the results and he'll call me to come back and go over it with him... and I'm done with him). Then i'll schedule another appt. and let the new doc know I have recent bloodwork and would just need to review it with him/her. I will of course post it up here first, because if you guys don't see any abnormalities, there's no point in me pursuing this with a doc (and subsequently paying for office visits).
> 
> Strike 1!!!


now thats a new one! LOL. hey G, sounds like you know what you're doing searching for TRT, your visit might be a strike one but its also one step ahead like you said you got lab work out of it. i look forward to seeing your labs.

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## gbrice75

^^ Thx B... i'm going to find another doc before going for labs. I want to make sure they'll accept labs that were prescribed by another doc and avoid going twice, or more.

----------


## bass

most take labs up to 3 months old.

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## gbrice75

^^ that'd be awesome.

----------


## gbrice75

UPDATE!!!

I went for a consultation with another doc yesterday. This was NIGHT AND DAY from my last visit. This guy was cool, funny, had great bedside manner, and most important - knew his shit. I brought up the fact that i'd only be interested in injectables (assuming I'm a candidate) and he said "fine, I'll give you whatever you want. If you wan't shots, i'll prescribe shots". I brought up the fertility issue and he said we'd do sperm analysis tests and start HCG if the count was dropping too much. However I know I can just ask and he'll put me on it from the start. I brought up gyno and other estro related sides and he said we'd monitor my estrogen levels and then he'd prescribe adex if need be - although again, I think I can just ask him for it right from the start as a precaution.

Now it's just a matter of my levels. He went over my bloodwork from 7 months ago (which only measured total test, not free unfortunately) - he said it was within normal range (around 560) but also said it was on the lower end. He said that if he were treating somebody with low test, he'd try to get them up to around 800-900, well over where I'm at - so that's a good thing. They took blood and I should know within a week whether or not i'll be starting, based on what the free test looks like. Honestly, I can't imagine it's not low - I can't seem to grow any muscle beyond where i'm at now (and if this is my genetic limit, i'm in the wrong business), I bump calories and add nothing but bodyfat. Hoping for good things... the irritability, lack of energy, libido, etc... all of that. 

Wish me luck guys. I'll update again as soon as I hear yay or nay.

----------


## bass

best of luck to you bro, and thanks for the update. sounds like you got a good one this time! my new doctor which i like allot said the same thing to me about my total test, its was in mid 700s and she said she likes to see my total higher. keep us posted!

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## gbrice75

^^ nice!!

On another note - can anybody give me a rough idea of what I'd be looking at, cost wise, per month if I were to pay 100% out of pocket for a TRT protocol? Say roughly 500mg test cyp, 4000iu HCG , and adex... for which I have no idea yet how my doc would have me run it. 

Just trying to get a rough estimate. Am I looking at $100 a month, or $500?

----------


## HRTstudent

> ^^ nice!!
> 
> On another note - can anybody give me a rough idea of what I'd be looking at, cost wise, per month if I were to pay 100% out of pocket for a TRT protocol? Say roughly 500mg test cyp, 4000iu HCG , and adex... for which I have no idea yet how my doc would have me run it. 
> 
> Just trying to get a rough estimate. Am I looking at $100 a month, or $500?


10mL of testosterone from most pharmacies is 100 dollars out of pocket. Im pretty sure all the big retailers would be the same. That 10mL would last you at least 10 weeks though. HCG... I have no idea what that is from a local pharmacy as I don't use it. Anastrozole is available in a generic form and you take such a low dose that a 30 pill bottle would last months. Probably less than $50 dollars for the bottle.

All in all, the drugs for TRT are relatively cheap (if you don't use testim, androgel , etc) but the lab work and frequent Dr visits are where you will spend a LOT more.

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## gbrice75

^^ thx for the info. The doctors visits and lab work are what i'm expecting insurance WILL cover. With these drugs being relatively cheap, I will hopefully be gtg.

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## Dpyle

Gb ask your doc how he codes the lab work. My old insurance policy covered preventative care 100% and when I told the doc that that's what he coded the lab work as so I paid nothing for that set of labs.

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## gbrice75

Awesome, good to know, thx bro!

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## Hackamaniac

560 level at 36 and you want Trt?? Trt sounds great, but it's not all peaches and cream... Unless you reallly need it, I wouldn't get on it just for vanity reasons.... I had alot lower levels than you and i'm younger, and sometimes wish I wouldn't of started....Good luck either way, I would give it alot of thougth though, no need to rush into it.

----------


## warchild

> UPDATE!!!
> 
> I went for a consultation with another doc yesterday. This was NIGHT AND DAY from my last visit. This guy was cool, funny, had great bedside manner, and most important - knew his shit. I brought up the fact that i'd only be interested in injectables (assuming I'm a candidate) and he said "fine, I'll give you whatever you want. If you wan't shots, i'll prescribe shots". I brought up the fertility issue and he said we'd do sperm analysis tests and start HCG if the count was dropping too much. However I know I can just ask and he'll put me on it from the start. I brought up gyno and other estro related sides and he said we'd monitor my estrogen levels and then he'd prescribe adex if need be - although again, I think I can just ask him for it right from the start as a precaution.
> 
> Now it's just a matter of my levels. He went over my bloodwork from 7 months ago (which only measured total test, not free unfortunately) - he said it was within normal range (around 560) but also said it was on the lower end. He said that if he were treating somebody with low test, he'd try to get them up to around 800-900, well over where I'm at - so that's a good thing. They took blood and I should know within a week whether or not i'll be starting, based on what the free test looks like. Honestly, I can't imagine it's not low - I can't seem to grow any muscle beyond where i'm at now (and if this is my genetic limit, i'm in the wrong business), I bump calories and add nothing but bodyfat. Hoping for good things... the irritability, lack of energy, libido, etc... all of that. 
> 
> Wish me luck guys. I'll update again as soon as I hear yay or nay.


Just keep in mind that some doctors will treat the* symptoms* of low test also. Just cause your levels are in the normal 400-1100 range doesn't mean your out of luck yet. Such as mine did. I was at 400 total but the symptoms I described were enough for my doc to put me on trt at 25. He was a powerlifter in his day and I see him at the gym every now and again. So when I see him he likes to hear my progress in the gym which is cool for a doctor. 
Cost- well my insurance covers everything with a 15$ co-pay except the hcg. That cost 90$ at his office for 10000ius w/ bac water and syringes. 
test at his office for 10cc is also 90$. adex was around 60$ for 8 1mg pills.

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## Hackamaniac

^^ Alot of guys get put on....Doesn't mean they really needed it.... Alot of the symptoms can be from other stuff and not tesosterone levels...

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## warchild

> ^^ Alot of guys get put on....Doesn't mean they really needed it.... Alot of the symptoms can be from other stuff and not tesosterone levels...


very true, but in my case the symptoms went away after trt

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## Allaaro

Even if the doc will put on you adex right off the bat, I wouldn't ask for it. I'd wait for bloodwork and run from there. The HCG could go both ways to start right away or not. I just think its a bad idea to start to lower estrogen levels when you don't even how how your body is converting to it from the extra testosterone . Start without it, then add small to see if over-responder if you need it, then bump it up from there with the test to get optimal levels.

----------


## gbrice75

> 560 level at 36 and you want Trt?? Trt sounds great, but it's not all peaches and cream... Unless you reallly need it, I wouldn't get on it just for vanity reasons.... I had alot lower levels than you and i'm younger, and sometimes wish I wouldn't of started....Good luck either way, I would give it alot of thougth though, no need to rush into it.


Like I mentioned previously - my initial interest was out of vanity, but as I researched and read about symptoms of low T, it was as if I were reading a profile of myself. At this point I do 'want' it... if it will help alleviate some/all of these symptoms. i.e. my interest is honestly no longer driven by vanity, although of course whatever physical benefits that come with TRT are welcomed. 

Trust me, this is not a decision I am taking lightly. I realize it's a potential life long commitment,and at 36, I (hopefully) have a lot of life left to live. Even if I get the green light, and insurance pays for 100% of everything (I realize this won't be the case), I will STILL have to make a final decision. At this point i'm simply exploring options and solutions.




> Just keep in mind that some doctors will treat the* symptoms* of low test also. Just cause your levels are in the normal 400-1100 range doesn't mean your out of luck yet. Such as mine did. I was at 400 total but the symptoms I described were enough for my doc to put me on trt at 25. He was a powerlifter in his day and I see him at the gym every now and again. So when I see him he likes to hear my progress in the gym which is cool for a doctor. 
> Cost- well my insurance covers everything with a 15$ co-pay except the hcg . That cost 90$ at his office for 10000ius w/ bac water and syringes. 
> test at his office for 10cc is also 90$. adex was around 60$ for 8 1mg pills.


He carries the drugs all at his office? 




> ^^ Alot of guys get put on....Doesn't mean they really needed it.... Alot of the symptoms can be from other stuff and not tesosterone levels...


Exactly. And as such, why not rule out low test levels as an option? No different from looking at other causes and sorting through those. It's not as if once you're on, you can never come off, especially if the duration is short - no different than an extremely mild cycle really. You could run a PCT with or without the doc's blessing and be like before you started.




> Even if the doc will put on you adex right off the bat, I wouldn't ask for it. I'd wait for bloodwork and run from there. The HCG could go both ways to start right away or not. I just think its a bad idea to start to lower estrogen levels when you don't even how how your body is converting to it from the extra testosterone. Start without it, then add small to see if over-responder if you need it, then bump it up from there with the test to get optimal levels.


I hear you about the adex... on cycles I like to run ancillaries as precautions, but then again we're talking about much higher doses of test and/or whatever else your cycle may include. This is something I'll have to give some more thought to. The doc wants to monitor estrogen levels and make a decision later. 

As for HCG, I want to start right away. I don't want to give sperm count a chance to drop... or rather, i'd like to combat that as much as possible up front. I actually need to talk to the doc about HMG vs. HCG.

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## Hackamaniac

Sounds like you've been doing your homework...Good luck in whatever you decide.. I hope it works for you!

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## warchild

yes, he carries test and hcg at his office that i know of. who knows what other good stuff he has there? maybe deca hgh and whinny??

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## oscarjones

If you do decide to self administer I would suggest a complete protocol. I have used TRT in the past and requested FSH administration alongside hCG and T due to the fact that I want kids someday.

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## gbrice75

> Sounds like you've been doing your homework...Good luck in whatever you decide.. I hope it works for you!


Thanks for your support brother!




> yes, he carries test and hcg at his office that i know of. who knows what other good stuff he has there? maybe deca hgh and whinny??


 :LOL:  




> If you do decide to self administer I would suggest a complete protocol. I have used TRT in the past and requested* FSH* administration alongside hCG and T due to the fact that I want kids someday.


Wouldn't HMG cover this? HMG + HCG would be a pretty nice protocol, no?

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## oscarjones

^Yes, exactly hCG + HMG would be ideal.

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## anon77

I will definitely be asking my clinic for a prescription now. With leftovers I can finally give blasting a shot. I doubt a chain clinic will do that though.

----------


## gbrice75

> ^Yes, exactly hCG + HMG would be ideal.


Thanks for the clarification.




> I will definitely be asking my clinic for a prescription now. With leftovers I can finally give blasting a shot. I doubt a chain clinic will do that though.


If your main reason for getting on TRT is to have leftovers with which to blast... I'd rethink it if I were you.

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## anon77

> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> 
> 
> If your main reason for getting on TRT is to have leftovers with which to blast... I'd rethink it if I were you.


No. I've been on TRT all summer. The only reason I never cycled was due to fear of needles. Now that I've overcome that I'd like to do a cycle.

----------


## zaggahamma

havent heard many if any big results (from blasts) from those going from trt to just higher doses of test

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## mike954

What's a blast ?

----------


## bass

> havent heard many if any big results (from blasts) from those going from trt to just higher doses of test


i agree, i get better results from high protein intake and heavy lifting than higher test doses.

----------


## bass

> What's a blast ?


cycle while on trt.

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## anon77

> i agree, i get better results from high protein intake and heavy lifting than higher test doses.


I've been doing that for years with a few breaks from getting discouraged. I've gained more the past 2 months on trt than I have the past 2 years without it. I've got friends wanting on it now after seeing my gains. If 80mg ew does this I'd like to see what a high dose could do. Maybe nothing, but I'm curious. If it does nothing why is test only recommended as a first cycle by everyone? Or are we talking ab different doses?

----------


## gbrice75

> No. I've been on TRT all summer. The only reason I never cycled was due to fear of needles. Now that I've overcome that I'd like to do a cycle.


Gotcha, my bad.  :Wink: 




> havent heard many if any big results (from blasts) from those going from trt to just higher doses of test


Really? Interesting... you're saying that gains haven't been much greater on cycle as opposed to standard TRT? 




> I've been doing that for years with a few breaks from getting discouraged. *I've gained more the past 2 months on trt than I have the past 2 years without it*. I've got friends wanting on it now after seeing my gains. *If 80mg ew does this* I'd like to see what a high dose could do. Maybe nothing, but I'm curious.


Hmm.. 80mg/week is about half of what I've seen others on (understood this could be a starting dosage). And you say you've seen better gains in 2 months than in 2 years natural!?! This is compelling!




> If it does nothing why is test only recommended as a first cycle by everyone?


For a couple of reasons. 

1- people react differently to AAS, particuarly with regards to sides. If you were to run test + another AAS and had sides, how would you know which compound was causing them? 

2- test should be the base of every cycle. Running any AAS compound without test is just plain stupid. With this in mind, it only makes sense to run test only as a first cycle.

Hope this helps.

----------


## kelkel

> I've been doing that for years with a few breaks from getting discouraged. I've gained more the past 2 months on trt than I have the past 2 years without it. I've got friends wanting on it now after seeing my gains. If 80mg ew does this I'd like to see what a high dose could do. Maybe nothing, but I'm curious. If it does nothing why is test only recommended as a first cycle by everyone? Or are we talking ab different doses?


Keep in mind that if your dosage of T is bumped up a bit that is still only part of the equation. If you want to seriously gain muscle you must still train and eat properly. Assuming you're training properly and you bump up your T and don't make gains, then you need to examine your diet, IMHO. Most people seriously just don't eat enough to make the gains they so desperately want.

----------


## gbrice75

^^ so true. I've seen guys on full blown cycles... 750mg test/week, etc - and they look like shit.

----------


## gbrice75

***UPDATE***

So, I called the doc's office today to see if my labs came back - they did!! I only got to speak to somebody at the front desk, so I don't have details - but she said the doc want's to schedule a follow up, T is definitely low and he wants to prescribe me 'something' (TRT, duh). I made my appt. for Tuesday morning and will update with results (numbers etc) ASAP.

So far, so good. I am really looking forward to feeling better and being a better ME. I expect to be discussing dosage as well as ancillaries which as mentioned - I will insist on running HCG right out of the gate. I'll also be bringing up HMG to hear his thoughts on that. Jury is still out on Adex - I know he'd prefer to monitor estrogen levels and deal with them if they occur. Personally, i'm all about precautions and would like to avoid them all together if possible. I have tits enough as it is... certainly don't need gyno to start.

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## milky01623

Good luck dude & congrats

----------


## mike954

What's the Benefit of running hcg on trt ? Cuz I'm just got put on trt

----------


## xcraider37

> What's the Benefit of running hcg on trt ? Cuz I'm just got put on trt


Hcg keeps your testicles producing. Without it they will shutdown and you may notice them getting smaller after a while. I have not noticed that effect yet and I have been doing trt for over a year now.

----------


## mike954

> Hcg keeps your testicles producing. Without it they will shutdown and you may notice them getting smaller after a while. I have not noticed that effect yet and I have been doing trt for over a year now.


Ok thx

----------


## bass

> What's the Benefit of running hcg on trt ? Cuz I'm just got put on trt


hcg will keep your testis functioning normally, without it they will shrink and stop to function. read the sticky posted by GDevine regarding hCG for further details.

oops! just saw Mike's post.

----------


## zaggahamma

no gbrice

not what i'm saying 

lets dont even use the word cycle anymore or at least in this question...

what i'm saying is if you ARE ON trt and have been for a good while (year or more) THEN raising test ALONE(BLAST) i have found and heard that results are not worth mentioning IF ANY...

test only cycles imo are for those running first cycles(now we can say cycle again :Smilie: , not those that have been running test week in and week out

my .02 and others i've heard but you see bass also x2'd me

----------


## anon77

double post. Curse you spammers had to edit sorry

----------


## anon77

> Gotcha, my bad. 
> 
> Really? Interesting... you're saying that gains haven't been much greater on cycle as opposed to standard TRT? 
> Hmm.. 80mg/week is about half of what I've seen others on (understood this could be a starting dosage). And you say you've seen better gains in 2 months than in 2 years natural!?! This is compelling!
> 
> For a couple of reasons. 
> 
> 1- people react differently to AAS, particuarly with regards to sides. If you were to run test + another AAS and had sides, how would you know which compound was causing them? 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Yes the past 2 months on trt all of my friends are telling me how big I'm getting. I've put on 6 lbs without really using a bulking diet. My waist is smaller by ½". It really seems to have been the missing link for me.

Just a hypothesis, but is it possible people don't see gains on test only blasts BC their natty test is too low and isn't boosted to levels that a normal person would see on 500mg ew? I am not saying I'm going to boast with 1ml a week, just a thought lol. 

I've only cycled an oral a few times with good results. Been on trt over 2 months. They have me 'dialed in', so they think, at a test level of 800. Workouts are intense and heavy.

Diet is good. Lots of fruits and lean meat. No cals from liquids outside of protein shakes. Not too much processed food or sugar.

----------


## gbrice75

> no gbrice
> 
> not what i'm saying 
> 
> lets dont even use the word cycle anymore or at least in this question...
> 
> what i'm saying is if you ARE ON trt and have been for a good while (year or more) THEN raising test ALONE(BLAST) i have found and heard that results are not worth mentioning IF ANY...
> 
> test only cycles imo are for those running first cycles(now we can say cycle again, not those that have been running test week in and week out
> ...


Thx for the clarification. 

Re: test only cycles - I will say that I know a Vet on this board (I won't name him as it's his business) who has run dozens of cycles and every compound under the sun, and now runs high dose test only cycles and claims to have better results than when he was running test lower but with other compounds. He's a fvcking beast too, so it's not just talk. I think maybe it boils down to the individual - some will just respond better to test than others. Same reason why TRT doesn't even seem to work for some people.




> Thanks. Yes the past 2 months on trt all of my friends are telling me how big I'm getting. I've put on 6 lbs without really using a bulking diet. My waist is smaller by ½". It really seems to have been the missing link for me.
> 
> Just a hypothesis, but is it possible people don't see gains on test only blasts BC their natty test is too low and isn't boosted to levels that a normal person would see on 500mg ew? I am not saying I'm going to boast with 1ml a week, just a thought lol. 
> 
> I've only cycled an oral a few times with good results. Been on trt over 2 months. They have me 'dialed in', so they think, at a test level of 800. Workouts are intense and heavy.
> 
> Diet is good. Lots of fruits and lean meat. No cals from liquids outside of protein shakes. Not too much processed food or sugar.


Cheers bro, sounds like you're enjoying yourself!

----------


## zaggahamma

[QUOTE=gbrice75;6111417]Thx for the clarification. 

Re: test only cycles - I will say that I know a Vet on this board (I won't name him as it's his business) who has run dozens of cycles and every compound under the sun, and now runs high dose test only cycles and claims to have better results than when he was running test lower but with other compounds. He's a fvcking beast too, so it's not just talk. I think maybe it boils down to the individual - some will just respond better to test than others. Same reason why TRT doesn't even seem to work for some people.

Yup its always individual

but back to your friend...still, if he hasnt been on trt and has only cycled off and on, then to be precise, it doesnt relate to what i stated...hope i didnt take u from clarification to confusion ...but i see a difference in what i said and what you stated your friend experienced

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## mike954

> hcg will keep your testis functioning normally, without it they will shrink and stop to function. read the sticky posted by GDevine regarding hCG for further details.
> 
> oops! just saw Mike's post.


I'm on trt from my DR not endo I'm going back in 6 weeks for more blood work should I bring this up to him ??

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## MRNJ1992

from personal exp my doc did the first shot then it was all me....

----------


## gbrice75

[QUOTE=jpkman;6111556]


> Thx for the clarification. 
> 
> Re: test only cycles - I will say that I know a Vet on this board (I won't name him as it's his business) who has run dozens of cycles and every compound under the sun, and now runs high dose test only cycles and claims to have better results than when he was running test lower but with other compounds. He's a fvcking beast too, so it's not just talk. I think maybe it boils down to the individual - some will just respond better to test than others. Same reason why TRT doesn't even seem to work for some people.
> 
> Yup its always individual
> 
> but back to your friend...still, if he hasnt been on trt and has only cycled off and on, then to be precise, it doesnt relate to what i stated...hope i didnt take u from clarification to confusion ...but i see a difference in what i said and what you stated your friend experienced


Yea... i'm kinda confused now, lmao!  :LOL: 




> I'm on trt from my DR not endo I'm going back in 6 weeks for more blood work should I bring this up to him ??


Bring what up?  :Hmmmm: 




> from personal exp my doc did the first shot then it was all me....


Damn... NJ been representin' lately!! Where are you at in Jersey?

----------


## gbrice75

Update:

Well, I had my appt with the doc today - i'm a step or 2 closer. Blood test results showed test was low:

Testosterone , Serum - 346 ng/dL (348-1197)
Free Testosterone (Direct) - 5.4 (8.7 - 25.1)

There you have it - this time around, both free and total were low. I'm not surprised. I feel like shit. No energy, low libido, depressed, gaining bodyfat, can't seem to add lean muscle, etc etc. 

The doc prescribed me 200mg/week test cyp (10mL) + 250 iu HCG 2x weekly. The only snag at the moment is both injections require authorization from my insurance company. I found this out at the pharmacy when trying to get these filled. So my doc has to call my carrier and explain why I need it. Right now, my fate lies in the hands of an insurance company - fvcking scary. We all know what crooks they can be, denying people coverage for this or that. Fingers are crossed, but I can't count my chickens before they hatch. Until I have the meds in my hand, I can't consider this a done deal. 

On another note, I mentioned HMG and he had no idea what i'm talking about. In all fairness, he's not an endo and I suppose I should start looking for one just to be on the safe side. I handed him a study (thanks OscarJones) and he at least took it and asked if he could make a copy, he was interested. 

I have to call the pharmacy tomorrow to see if it was approved by insurance or not... *gulp* Wish me luck!

----------


## Dpyle

Good luck gb. Glad to see you have a script for the hcg . I still can't get my office to write a script for it. They will only sell it through the office and I don't like the idea of getting it already reconstituted.

----------


## gbrice75

Thx man. I actually wouldn't mind having somebody do the work for me. It's a pain in the ass IMO.

----------


## bass

i know how you feel, it is scary when your insurance tells your doc what to do. worse case scenario just go to Costco and get your meds from there, 10ml test cyp is about $57. he put you on a high dose, you can try it and see how you feel/do but for the long run i think you won't like the negative sides like high RBC, High cholesterol, high BP, high libido....okay libido may not be a bad thing, but trust me, more is not better, you just need to find your sweet spot! good luck GB!

----------


## Dpyle

> Thx man. I actually wouldn't mind having somebody do the work for me. It's a pain in the ass IMO.


It would be ok if they re constituted it for me in office but they get it from a compounding pharmacy. No date of when it was reconstituted just an expiration date. The only time I used it I was using 300 iu twice a week with no noticeable change to my little guys so I never bothered to drop the cash for a second bottle.

----------


## gbrice75

> i know how you feel, it is scary when your insurance tells your doc what to do. worse case scenario just go to Costco and get your meds from there, 10ml test cyp is about $57.


So you're saying if they deny me, just go to Costco sans insurance and pay for it directly out of pocket? I guess I could do that... seeing as it's that cheap and all... thx bro, glad you brought that up. Just called Walgreens (where my scripts are currently pending) and the test is $109.99, the HCG is $174.99... kinda steep. We'll see! I'll check Costco like you said, and Walmart as well.




> he put you on a high dose, you can try it and see how you feel/do but for the long run i think you won't like the negative sides like high RBC, High cholesterol, high BP, high libido....okay libido may not be a bad thing, but trust me, more is not better, you just need to find your sweet spot! good luck GB!


Well, luckily I have excellent cholesterol to begin with... so at least i'm in a good position. The high libido is one of those things i'm looking forward to. 200mg did see high to start, I was expecting maybe 100-130, but i'm not complaining. I'm sure we'll lower the dosage if need be. Thx bro!!!





> It would be ok if they re constituted it for me in office but they get it from a compounding pharmacy. No date of when it was reconstituted just an expiration date. The only time I used it I was using 300 iu twice a week with *no noticeable change to my little guys* so I never bothered to drop the cash for a second bottle.


This begs the question - were your little guys in bad shape already? What changes were you expecting? i.e. did you experience atrophy initially and the HCG did nothing to correct that? Did you have a sperm count analysis before/after?

----------


## Dpyle

> This begs the question - were your little guys in bad shape already? What changes were you expecting? i.e. did you experience atrophy initially and the HCG did nothing to correct that? Did you have a sperm count analysis before/after?


No sperm count was done. I was judging based on whether it helped with the atrophy. And it didn't really help with that which led me to believe it had been reconstituted long enough for degradation to start. It also had b12 mixed with it and I'm not sure if that would harm the hormone or not.

And wow my walgreens charges about 20 bucks less for a 10ml vial

----------


## steroid.com 1

"The doc prescribed me 200mg/week test cyp (10mL) + 250 iu HCG 2x weekly."

You could pump up the hCG to 250iu 3x weekly like Monday, Wednesday and Friday on 200mg of week Cyp.

Can you post the rest of your BW especially like to see LH, FSH, SHBG, Albumin, TSH and E2 if you have them.

----------


## gbrice75

> No sperm count was done. I was judging based on whether it helped with the atrophy. And it didn't really help with that which led me to believe it had been reconstituted long enough for degradation to start. It also had b12 mixed with it and I'm not sure if that would harm the hormone or not.
> 
> And wow my walgreens charges about 20 bucks less for a 10ml vial


Just checked the Costco by me - $71.55 for the test, not sure about the HCG because they don't have it there in stock.

Gonna check Walmart, CVS, and Rite Aid next.

----------


## gbrice75

> "The doc prescribed me 200mg/week test cyp (10mL) + 250 iu HCG 2x weekly."
> 
> You could pump up the hCG to 250iu 3x weekly like Monday, Wednesday and Friday on 200mg of week Cyp.


I could... but doubt it's necesssary at this point. We'll have to see how it goes first.




> Can you post the rest of your BW especially like to see LH, FSH, SHBG, Albumin, TSH and E2 if you have them.


I actually had limited tests run because I had full (extended) BW done in December. All that was tested for this time was test, LH, and SHBG. Values for the latter 2 as follows:

LH: 4.0 mIU/mL (1.7 - 8.6)

SHBG, Serum 48.6 nmol/L (16.5 - 55.9) On the high side, but not out of normal range.

----------


## Dpyle

I need to shop around a bit myself. For some reason the doc writes the script for 200mg per week with three refills in a 4 month span but walgreens will only let me refill every 10 weeks which doesn't account for loss in the pin so I'm left with just over 100mg on the 10th week. Thankfully I filled my first script the week the doc gave me my injection in office so I can actually refill the week before I need it. Plus I believe I could get a better price somewhere else. 

Every refill walgreens tries to say they can't get the 10ml vials anymore and the only other option they have is 1ml vials that cost 120 bucks for 4. Then they somehow manage to find their "last" 10ml vial when I refuse to pay more for less.

----------


## steroid.com 1

LH: 4.0 mIU/mL (1.7 - 8.6)
This is fine. 

SHBG, Serum 48.6 nmol/L (16.5 - 55.9) On the high side, but not out of normal range.
This is best mid to mid/low.

Did you have a full set of Thyroid panels run in December?

Maybe I missed it as this thread is getting long; were you diagnosed Primary or Secondary Hypogonadal?

----------


## Vettester

Gbrice, I agree with GD about splitting up the HCG protocol to 3x's/wk. 

IMO, you wouldn't need all that much test; possibly 100mg -to- 120mg/wk. Part of the situation you're feeling is also a result of the free test being low (1.56% to be exact). Get this up in the 2.5% range and you will get a nice boost on that alone. Look at it this way ...

Option 1) Leave your free test where it is at: 800 total serum (which people would think is great) would give you a free test score of: *12.4*
Option 2) Get your free test to a healthy 2.5% (or thereabouts), and a 600 total serum would give you a free test score of *15.0* YES, 200 points lower on a total serum labs means more testosterone  :Hmmmm:  I know, it doesn't sound right, but it's proof that more focus needs to be put on the free & bio available side of things.

So in essence, you can actually get more for less. I'm banking if you add a decent amount of Vitamin D, and maybe even a little stinging nettle root, I'll bet your SHBG comes down into the 20's for you. Less compound will be needed to achieve wellness, and you can hold on to that extra test for a blast-a-thon down the road.

I will also bank that you will make out OK with the insurance approval. The games we have to play to fill good again, geesh!

I was also going to ask you, are you looking at any particular additions to compliment your protocol? Such as, B-12, Vitamin D (as noted above), Preg/DHEA? Also, I may have missed some earlier posts, but are you looking to keep your options open for having children after you start? I saw where there was mention of HMG, so I'm figuring that is something you are looking to do?

----------


## bass

> Just checked the Costco by me - $71.55 for the test, not sure about the HCG because they don't have it there in stock.
> 
> Gonna check Walmart, CVS, and Rite Aid next.


if you are a member you will get additional discount. my insurance only allows me to get 4 mgs a month, which means i have to make 3 trips to the pharmacy and pay 20 dollars copay every time which comes up to 60 dollars for 10 ml, so i figured its cheeper to pay out of pocket!

----------


## gbrice75

> I need to shop around a bit myself. For some reason the doc writes the script for 200mg per week with three refills in a 4 month span but walgreens will only let me refill every 10 weeks which doesn't account for loss in the pin so I'm left with just over 100mg on the 10th week. Thankfully I filled my first script the week the doc gave me my injection in office so I can actually refill the week before I need it. Plus I believe I could get a better price somewhere else. 
> 
> Every refill walgreens tries to say they can't get the 10ml vials anymore and the only other option they have is 1ml vials that cost 120 bucks for 4. Then they somehow manage to find their "last" 10ml vial when I refuse to pay more for less.


Fvckers. I shopped around quite a bit, and surprisingly, Walgreen's was THE most expensive between Walmart, Rite Aid, Costco, and CVS. 




> LH: 4.0 mIU/mL (1.7 - 8.6)
> This is fine. 
> 
> SHBG, Serum 48.6 nmol/L (16.5 - 55.9) On the high side, but not out of normal range.
> This is best mid to mid/low.
> 
> Did you have a full set of Thyroid panels run in December?


To be honest, I can't remember. I thought I posted results at the beginning of this thread, but I could be thinking of another thread. I can post them if you'd like. 




> Maybe I missed it as this thread is getting long; were you diagnosed Primary or Secondary Hypogonadal?


He didn't 'diagnose' me as either. i.e. he never came out and said "ok, you have secondary hypogonadism." He prescribed me TRT based on a low test score, but from what I can tell, that's about it. Again, he isn't an endo. I will be shopping for one though and will make the switch as soon as I find one I like.




> Gbrice, I agree with GD about splitting up the HCG protocol to 3x's/wk. 
> 
> IMO, you wouldn't need all that much test; possibly 100mg -to- 120mg/wk. Part of the situation you're feeling is also a result of the free test being low (1.56% to be exact). Get this up in the 2.5% range and you will get a nice boost on that alone. Look at it this way ...


*interest piqued*  :Smilie: 




> Option 1) Leave your free test where it is at: 800 total serum (which people would think is great) would give you a free test score of: *12.4*
> Option 2) Get your free test to a healthy 2.5% (or thereabouts), and a 600 total serum would give you a free test score of *15.0* YES, 200 points lower on a total serum labs means more testosterone  I know, it doesn't sound right, but it's proof that more focus needs to be put on the free & bio available side of things.


I am *loosely* following you here. I understand the concept of having more free test; I don't 100% follow the math, but I guess I don't necessarily need to know that in depth - or do I? The bigger question is - how do I go about doing this? 




> So in essence, you can actually get more for less. I'm banking if you add a decent amount of Vitamin D, and maybe even a little stinging nettle root, I'll bet your SHBG comes down into the 20's for you. *Less compound will be needed to achieve wellness, and you can hold on to that extra test for a blast-a-thon down the road*.


Now this is appealing.




> I will also bank that you will make out OK with the insurance approval. The games we have to play to fill good again, geesh!


Sadly, it's a no go. Fvckers denied coverage. They want my total test score to be under 300, i'm at 346. Cocksvckers. But thanks to Bass, Costco has 10mL for $67 (members discount) so i'm paying out of pocket. 




> I was also going to ask you, are you looking at any particular additions to compliment your protocol? Such as, B-12, Vitamin D (as noted above), Preg/DHEA? Also, I may have missed some earlier posts, but are you looking to keep your options open for having children after you start? I saw where there was mention of HMG, so I'm figuring that is something you are looking to do?


I haven't really given it much thought to be honest. I am certainly not against adding vitamins, although I need to get educated on the benefits, specifically with regards to TRT. DHEA - I was supp'ing it for a while last year, but ran out and didn't buy it again. I guess I should before it's banned.

I don't know much at all about Preg - it's a prohormone, right? Or am I thinking of something else? In any event - I am planning to do everything on the up and up with regards to my wife. I have her blessing (and trust, once again) with TRT after a lot of issues over the past year with AAS and related shit... so i'm not about to compromise that again. Point being - if preg is illegal, it's out of the question for me. But I'd still be interested to learn about it for my own thirst for knowledge.  :Smilie: 




> if you are a member you will get additional discount. my insurance only allows me to get 4 mgs a month, which means i have to make 3 trips to the pharmacy and pay 20 dollars copay every time which comes up to 60 dollars for 10 ml, so i figured its cheeper to pay out of pocket!


I fvcking hate insurance companies. If you read a few responses above, you'll know I was denied outright. They said my test isn't low enough to be covered. So, i'm paying out of pocket. $67 at my Costco (i'm a member) - can't thank you enough for the recommendation because the other pharmacies (CVS, etc) were all over $100.

----------


## warchild

brice- if you retest your levels and they come back under 300 will insurance pay for it then? cus you could always do your trt for a bit and then go cold turkey for a few weeks and come back very low. I did this and came back at 87 total so maybe its worth a shot......

----------


## Dpyle

> brice- if you retest your levels and they come back under 300 will insurance pay for it then? cus you could always do your trt for a bit and then go cold turkey for a few weeks and come back very low. I did this and came back at 87 total so maybe its worth a shot......


This is how my insurance covered it gb. I started at a clinic and was with them paying cash for several months. Then the doc that was managing my protocol called me up one week and said she was moving to a new office that would take insurance. Well my last labs were pulled around 10 days after my last injection ( busy work week). Levels came in just over 200 total So the insurance never questioned it when it got submitted.

----------


## gbrice75

> brice- if you retest your levels and they come back under 300 will insurance pay for it then? cus you could always do your trt for a bit and then go cold turkey for a few weeks and come back very low. I did this and came back at 87 total so maybe its worth a shot......





> This is how my insurance covered it gb. I started at a clinic and was with them paying cash for several months. Then the doc that was managing my protocol called me up one week and said she was moving to a new office that would take insurance. Well my last labs were pulled around 10 days after my last injection ( busy work week). Levels came in just over 200 total So the insurance never questioned it when it got submitted.


I've been thinking about doing exactly this. I'd take my last shot, wait 2-3 weeks, go in for labs, then start pinning again right away while waiting for results. Should be very low. Supposedly, my insurance company wants to see total test under 300 - so unless they're full of shit and will come up with another excuse, I SHOULD be covered if I can pull this off. 

I don't want to do it right away though. I want to stay on TRT for about 6 months before deciding on anything - i.e. do I want to do this for life, or not? If not, no point in bothering with all this.

----------


## warchild

so did you start the trt today or are you holding off? also is the ins gonna cover labs and doctor visits?

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## gbrice75

> so did you start the trt today or are you holding off? also is the ins gonna cover labs and doctor visits?


I have the test in hand, pinning tonight! 

Insurance should cover labs and office visits. I don't expect that to be an issue.

----------


## Vettester

> Fvckers. 
> *interest piqued* 
> 
> I am *loosely* following you here. I understand the concept of having more free test; I don't 100% follow the math, but I guess I don't necessarily need to know that in depth - or do I? The bigger question is - how do I go about doing this? *I'll try to explain it with my "well" analogy ... Look at your testosterone like a well or reservoir of water. Your day-to-day life depends on this water. Let's say though that this water well is regulated, and you can only take a small percentage each day. If there were 300 gallons in the well, and you could only get 1% by rules of the regulation, then you and your family would only get 3 gallons a day to live on. Forget all that water that is there, because you're only getting a small percentage. Now let's say your neighbor has the same well, however he gets 2% of it. That would suck, because he gets twice as much as you, working on the same amount of water in the well.
> 
> Free testosterone is no different. That is what you are actually using when it comes down to it. We can only tap a small percentage of our testosterone (total serum) to be used. A good, healthy level is between 2% to 3%, and rarely will go over 4%. The rest of it is tied up strongly with SHBG and loosely with Albumin. In my case, I'm in the 3.2% range +/- 1/10th or so. So, instead of trying to increase your serum (or well) to 900 or 1000, work on increasing the actual amount that gets regulated to you, which might be easily achieved with a score of 550 to 700.
> 
> The math would be ...
> Current: 1.56%
> ...


Responses in bold ...

----------


## warchild

> *I have the test in hand, pinning tonight!* 
> 
> Insurance should cover labs and office visits. I don't expect that to be an issue.


let the games begin!

----------


## gbrice75

> Responses in bold ...


Thanks for the analogy bro. I still don't follow the math, but you're talking to a guy who passed math by the skin of his teeth with 70's all through high school... so go figure. 

I do get the concept though. More free test, less total test, less compound needed to achieve this by reducing SHBG. This of course leads to the question - how does one go about lowering this value? All I could find so far was info on herbal supplements - namely, Avena Sativa, Urtica Dioica (stinging nettles), and Muira Puama. Any input on these, and/or something else you can recommend to achieve a lower SHBG count?

I'm also very interested in learning more about B-12, D, etc. - whatever legal means I can take to optimize TRT.

On another note - pinned last night. It was a great session because my wife was very cool (again, after going through a very rough patch due to AAS and related shit) and wanted to watch, and even said she might want to pin me the next time. She's trying to be really cool and understanding and open, and I really appreciate it. I'm lucky to have her!! 

So, sitting... and waiting.... figuring on about 3 weeks or so before I notice anything. I'll tell you one thing - it did NOTHING for my workout this morning. I was expecting this great intense workout due to knowing that i'm on the road to recovery (i.e. mentally psyched, therefore propelling my workout) and I wound up having one of the worst, least intense workouts ever. Never even broke a sweat. Doesn't help thought that i'm fighting through a collar bone injury on the left side, and a wrist/elbow injury on the right.  :Frown:

----------


## kelkel

Combining vit D with stinging nettle will lower your shbg. The additional T will also suppress shbg. You'll be good to go soon.

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## bass

you are lucky to have her, my wife associated test injection with narcotics! be patient, test will start working after 4-8 weeks. B12 is waste of money. anavar will lower SHBG! i am like Vette, my SHBG is in the tank, but you might end up like us after a while on TRT, so be patient there also. 

Great analogy by Vette!

----------


## gbrice75

> Responses in bold ...





> Combining vit D with stinging nettle will lower your shbg. The additional T will also suppress shbg. You'll be good to go soon.


I'll look into getting both immediately then!




> you are lucky to have her, my wife associated test injection with narcotics!


Most uninformed people (no offense to your wife) do. They hear needle and they freak. Meanwhile, the orals which they'd have MUCH less of a problem with are tough on the liver and more of a concern IMO. 




> be patient, test will start working after 4-8 weeks. B12 is waste of money. anavar will lower SHBG! i am like Vette, my SHBG is in the tank, but you might end up like us after a while on TRT, so be patient there also. 
> 
> Great analogy by Vette!


Why do you think B12 is a waste of money? As for anavar - can't get it without a script, even then it's expensive as hell, so that's not gonna happen.

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## warchild

For some reason im excited tp follow your trt journey! Glad to hear your wife is on board. Even my gf pins me and supports my trt. Keep this thread posted bro! The test will hit you soon enough and you'll wonder why you waited so long to start.

----------


## bass

> Most uninformed people (no offense to your wife) do. They hear needle and they freak. Meanwhile, the orals which they'd have MUCH less of a problem with are tough on the liver and more of a concern IMO. 
> 
> Why do you think B12 is a waste of money? As for anavar - can't get it without a script, even then it's expensive as hell, so that's not gonna happen.


none taken bro! as far as B12 its based on my personal experience and others who used it, didn't feel any different! its 3 shots ew and they hurt like a mofo!

----------


## Stevens03

Hey man I pm'd you. Can I get the name/website of this doctor. I have been searching for a HRT doc in my area.

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## gbrice75

> For some reason im excited tp follow your trt journey! Glad to hear your wife is on board. Even my gf pins me and supports my trt. Keep this thread posted bro! The test will hit you soon enough and you'll wonder why you waited so long to start.


Thanks bro!!! And the bold... I REALLY hope you're right. I always have this weird paranoia that I won't respond to things the way the majority of people do..  :Shrug: 




> none taken bro! as far as B12 its based on my personal experience and others who used it, didn't feel any different! its 3 shots ew and they hurt like a mofo!


Thanks man. Would like to hear more opinions on B12. I already supplement B-Complex in pill form, but I would imagine injections are another level. 




> Hey man I pm'd you. Can I get the name/website of this doctor. I have been searching for a HRT doc in my area.


I'll check out your PM now.

----------


## warchild

*[QUOTE=gbrice75;6117275]Thanks bro!!! And the bold... I REALLY hope you're right. I always have this weird paranoia that I won't respond to things the way the majority of people do..* 

_when and what was your last cycle? when did you notice the effects also? ....._

----------


## gbrice75

> _when and what was your last cycle? when did you notice the effects also? ....._


Last summer. I don't remember exact number of weeks etc. anymore, but it was a test prop + tren ace cycle, 50mg ED each. It's a loaded question because for about 2-3 weeks I noticed nothing and suspected the gear was bunk. Got new gear from a different source and noticed results within a few days as expected.

----------


## warchild

> Last summer. I don't remember exact number of weeks etc. anymore, but it was a test prop + tren ace cycle, 50mg ED each. It's a loaded question because for about 2-3 weeks I noticed nothing and suspected the gear was bunk. Got new gear from a different source and noticed results within a few days as expected.


makes sense why you would think that you might not re-act to the test, but just think that your test is grade fn A american pharm no under-dosed bunk ugl! 3-4 weeks you'll notice

----------


## gbrice75

> makes sense why you would think that you might not re-act to the test, but just think that your test is grade fn A american pharm no under-dosed bunk ugl! 3-4 weeks you'll notice


lol, from a logical standpoint I know this, but what can I say... i'm a headcase.  :Wink:

----------


## gbrice75

> The additional T will also suppress shbg. You'll be good to go soon.


Kel et. al. - I wanted to revisit this for a minute. I read somewhere that additional T (i.e. TRT) will increase my total T, however shbg will also increase therefore binding to much of the additional T. i.e. the higher total T won't necessarily equate to (much) more free T. Thoughts?

On another note - i'm concerned about the fact my doc currently doesn't have me on an AI. I have an appt. in a month and I imagine he'll be doing labs again to see where things (including E2) are at, however I'm all about preventative measures versus waiting until there's a problem... i.e. proactive vs. reactive. Should I just insist on starting adex now, or do you think i'll be ok waiting for a month (and potentially raising E2 levels in the interim)? Would there be any drawback to running adex as a precaution?

Also, just out of curiosity - why does adex seem to be part of the standard TRT protocol vs. aromasin /exemestane? Is it a cost issue? Effectiveness?

----------


## gbrice75

^^ BUMP.

Also looking for suggestions on brands and strength for Vit. D and Stinging Nettles.  :Smilie:

----------


## bass

> Kel et. al. - I wanted to revisit this for a minute. I read somewhere that additional T (i.e. TRT) will increase my total T, however shbg will also increase therefore binding to much of the additional T. i.e. the higher total T won't necessarily equate to (much) more free T. Thoughts?
> 
> On another note - i'm concerned about the fact my doc currently doesn't have me on an AI. I have an appt. in a month and I imagine he'll be doing labs again to see where things (including E2) are at, however I'm all about preventative measures versus waiting until there's a problem... i.e. proactive vs. reactive. Should I just insist on starting adex now, or do you think i'll be ok waiting for a month (and potentially raising E2 levels in the interim)? Would there be any drawback to running adex as a precaution?
> 
> Also, just out of curiosity - why does adex seem to be part of the standard TRT protocol vs. aromasin/exemestane? Is it a cost issue? Effectiveness?


first aromasin is cheaper and has less sides, but if you can afford it or your insurance pays for it then go for it.

if your doc prescribes adex then i don't see the harm in taking it, but make sure you take it at very low dose like 0.25 mgs twice a week then see where you're at 4 weeks later, but don't do it on your own because if your doc sees that your e2 is in check he'll assume you don't need AI and he'll never prescribe it for you. on the other hand one month without AI even if your e2 shoots up won't hurt you, you can knock that down within a week with AIs.

i get my vitamin D from walmart, very cheep and very effective. the one i have is 10,000 iu per gelcap, i take it eod and my levels are at the top of the range.

----------


## gbrice75

> first aromasin is cheaper and has less sides, but if you can afford it or your insurance pays for it then go for it.


Wait, now i'm confused. Do you mean that *adex* is cheaper and has less sides? That would make sense as to why it seems to be the go-to AI script for TRT protocols.




> if your doc prescribes adex then i don't see the harm in taking it, but make sure you take it at very low dose like 0.25 mgs twice a week then see where you're at 4 weeks later, but don't do it on your own because if your doc sees that your e2 is in check he'll assume you don't need AI and he'll never prescribe it for you. on the other hand one month without AI even if your e2 shoots up won't hurt you, you can knock that down within a week with AIs.


Understood, thx. I will definitely wait until my first appt to at least discuss it with him. 




> i get my vitamin D from walmart, very cheep and very effective. the one i have is 10,000 iu per gelcap, i take it eod and my levels are at the top of the range.


I guess what I meant with regards to Vitamin D was - is there a specific 'type'? i.e. if somebody asked me about supplementing Vitamin B, i'd suggest a B-Complex vs. just B-12 for example. Is there a similar approach to Vitamin D - or is it just Vitamin-D, straight up? I keep seeing Vitamin D3... 

Thanks for all the ongoing support Bass, much appreciated! Also hoping GD, Kel, and HRTStudent will pop in. 

In addition to Vitamin D and Stinging Nettles, after reading GD's Preg thread I'm currently looking at supplementing Preg and DHEA. Seems 25mg in the morning and another 25mg in the afternoon each is popular. 

Re HCG : I still haven't started (don't have it yet), but my script calls for 500iu twice weekly (I previously wrong 250iu 2x weekly, sorry for the misinformation). I am pinning test every 3.5 days. How would you (any of you) recommend adding the HCG? 500iu the day before the test injection? I see quite a bit about lower dose/higher frequency for HCG, like 3x weekly or EOD. I'm prescribed 1g per week - how would you ideally break this up?

----------


## Brohim

> Thanks man. Would like to hear more opinions on B12. I already supplement B-Complex in pill form, but I would imagine injections are another level. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll check out your PM now.


I am taking B-12 injection's right now 1000mcg per day for 30 day's. 1.5 weeks in. Doesn't hurt 29 guage insulin pin 1ML ED. I will give a review if you like when I am done. So far I can tell my metabolism is a lot faster than before.

----------


## bass

> Wait, now i'm confused. Do you mean that *adex* is cheaper and has less sides? That would make sense as to why it seems to be the go-to AI script for TRT protocols.


damn i need to check my E2 level  :Smilie: 

i meant to say aromasin is more expensive and has less sides, of course Adex is cheaper but has some negative sides like muscle cramping and messes with lipid panel, but not at low doses, i saw these sides when i was taking 2 mg or more ew.

----------


## Vettester

G, a good protocol for the HCG and test might be ...

HCG: 250iu on Mon, Wed, Fri
Cyp: ? on Tuesday late, Sat morning
If taking any AI, look at the day after taking cyp.

----------


## gbrice75

> I am taking B-12 injection's right now 1000mcg per day for 30 day's. 1.5 weeks in. Doesn't hurt 29 guage insulin pin 1ML ED. I will give a review if you like when I am done. So far I can tell my metabolism is a lot faster than before.


Sure, i'd appreciate it. Re: your last comment - how can you tell?




> damn i need to check my E2 level 
> 
> i meant to say aromasin is more expensive and has less sides, of course Adex is cheaper but has some negative sides like muscle cramping and messes with lipid panel, but not at low doses, i saw these sides when i was taking 2 mg or more ew.


Thx for the info.




> G, a good protocol for the HCG and test might be ...
> 
> HCG: 250iu on Mon, Wed, Fri
> Cyp: ? on Tuesday late, Sat morning
> If taking any AI, look at the day after taking cyp.


Cyp - close enough, i'm already on a schedule of Wed evening, Sunday morning. So I would simply switch HCG to 250iu Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday - however that's 750iu's, 250iu's under my script recommended dosage. Should I bump it to around 300iu's? 

Sorry if i'm obsessing over small stuff; I just want to get this dialed in properly.

----------


## Vettester

> Cyp - close enough, i'm already on a schedule of Wed evening, Sunday morning. So I would simply switch HCG to 250iu Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday - however that's 750iu's, 250iu's under my script recommended dosage. Should I bump it to around 300iu's? 
> 
> Sorry if i'm obsessing over small stuff; I just want to get this dialed in properly.


Yeah, definitely, you can just tweak the dosage amount to match your personal needs. At one point, I was 300iu x 2/wk, then just went 250iu x 3/wk, which worked better for me. If you go 300iu or slightly over x 3/wk you should be GTG.

----------


## gbrice75

Thx Vette, will start with 300iu EOD (thereabouts) as soon as I get the HCG . 

Still looking for some feedback on stinging nettles.  :Smilie:

----------


## gbrice75

Today marks 1 week into treatment. Obviously no changes to report at present, but i'm hopeful for good things. This HAS to be the answer. I have been prescribed anti-depressant drugs in the past to no avail. Not sure what else the problem could be, but this can't be how people are supposed to feel daily... I just can't accept that. I probably should have looked into TRT long ago. 

Question - is there any merit to the idea that lifestyle can affect T levels? i.e. I spent the better part of 15 years sitting on my fat ass, being lazy, literally zero activity, smoking, horrible diet, etc. - and I just wonder if that could contribute to low levels. Kind of the 'use it or lose it' theory...  :Hmmmm:

----------


## milky01623

> Today marks 1 week into treatment. Obviously no changes to report at present, but i'm hopeful for good things. This HAS to be the answer. I have been prescribed anti-depressant drugs in the past to no avail. Not sure what else the problem could be, but this can't be how people are supposed to feel daily... I just can't accept that. I probably should have looked into TRT long ago.
> 
> Question - is there any merit to the idea that lifestyle can affect T levels? i.e. I spent the better part of 15 years sitting on my fat ass, being lazy, literally zero activity, smoking, horrible diet, etc. - and I just wonder if that could contribute to low levels. Kind of the 'use it or lose it' theory...


Man u sound like what I was like only 12 months ago lol and I'm about to start trt today but only in gel form 
I was just thinking that you guys in the states get to pin from day 1 yet us in the uk get gel to begin man u guys have all the fun
Good luck gb

----------


## gbrice75

> Man u sound like what I was like only 12 months ago lol and I'm about to start trt today but only in gel form 
> I was just thinking that you guys in the states get to pin from day 1 yet us in the uk get gel to begin man u guys have all the fun
> Good luck gb


lol, a lot of people here are prescribed gel's as well. The fact is most people don't like needles, so gel's/creams are the obvious choice. You're right though, as far as I know we are much further along here with regards to TRT as an accepted treatment. 

Good luck to you too man, keep us posted on your progress, and thanks for the support!

----------


## kelkel

Can't tell you about stinging nettle by itself. I combined mine with a vit D protocol as well as upping my T dosage slightly. Tested 3 months later as follows:

SHBG was 41. Now 24
D was less than 25. Now 80
E2 was 15-16 (I run low.) Now 26

IMO it worked. Now to see how it holds is the question. More BW to come in October and I'll have my answers. If all the above fails you, try Danazol.

----------


## gbrice75

> Can't tell you about stinging nettle by itself. I combined mine with a vit D protocol as well as upping my T dosage slightly. Tested 3 months later as follows:
> 
> SHBG was 41. Now 24
> D was less than 25. Now 80
> E2 was 15-16 (I run low.) Now 26
> 
> IMO it worked. Now to see how it holds is the question. More BW to come in October and I'll have my answers. If all the above fails you, try Danazol.


Awesome results. Would you mind sharing your protocol? I'd like to start ASAP.

----------


## kelkel

My normal TRT protocol is:

60mg cyp every 3.5 days
HCG 250 IU M-W-F
No AI needed

Went to this:

80 mg every 3.5 days (dropped this back after handful of weeks)
HCG same
Vit D (Drisdol) @ 50K IU once per week
Stinging Nettle @ 480mg per cap x 3 a day

I wanted to try and get it down fast then hope that adding in the D and Nettle it will maintain at its lower level. Time and BW will tell.

----------


## gbrice75

> My normal TRT protocol is:
> 
> 60mg cyp every 3.5 days
> HCG 250 IU M-W-F
> No AI needed
> 
> Went to this:
> 
> 80 mg every 3.5 days (dropped this back after handful of weeks)
> ...


Damn. I just bought vitamin D3 caps... I believe they're dosed at 2000iu per cap. Quite a lot of caps to make up 50k iu... any reason why it would be a bad idea to break this up throughout the week - i.e. 10,000iu M-F?




> Stinging Nettle @ 480mg per cap x 3 a day
> 
> I wanted to try and get it down fast then hope that adding in the D and Nettle it will maintain at its lower level. Time and BW will tell.


Kind of confused - I thought D and Nettle were used to bring it down, but you're adding them to maintain already lowered levels. What then did you do initially to "get it down fast"? Sorry if you've already mentioned this and I somehow missed it.

----------


## bass

i take one gelcap of 10,000 iu vitamin D3 eod and my levels are at the top. i don't know why Kel takes it all at once (if thats what he meant) but normally it should be taken throughout the week.

----------


## kelkel

Drisdol is a _prescription_ D which is as stated, 50K IU and you only take it once a week. Works great. Vette uses the same item, same protocol. When my script runs out I won't refill it, I'll hit walmart and grab some and probably run with 5k per day or so.

For clarity: 

My T was upped slightly at the same time I added in the D and Nettle. All was done "in concert" to work together to achieve my goals. A little added T will push your SHBG down quicker than most anything else. Adding in the D and Nettle will give the added push to your shbg and when you go back to normal TRT levels, hopefully keep it there. As stated my next BW will be interesting to see if my theory works. I was also able to raise my E from a steady 16 to 26 where I'd like to keep it, although I think it will drop back down to its natural lower level.

kel

----------


## bass

> Drisdol is a _prescription_ D which is as stated, 50K IU and you only take it once a week. Works great. Vette uses the same item, same protocol. When my script runs out I won't refill it, I'll hit walmart and grab some and probably run with 5k per day or so.
> 
> For clarity: 
> 
> My T was upped slightly at the same time I added in the D and Nettle. All was done "in concert" to work together to achieve my goals. A little added T will push your SHBG down quicker than most anything else. Adding in the D and Nettle will give the added push to your shbg and when you go back to normal TRT levels, hopefully keep it there. As stated my next BW will be interesting to see if my theory works. I was also able to raise my E from a steady 16 to 26 where I'd like to keep it, although I think it will drop back down to its natural lower level.
> 
> kel


thanks for the clarification Kel!

----------


## MRNJ1992

fantastic....

----------


## warchild

bump for the man brice!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Excellent thread! Great questions and input! 

I have nothing to offer other than support brother.

Good luck with this Brice. 

sub'd!

----------


## gbrice75

> i take one gelcap of 10,000 iu vitamin D3 eod and my levels are at the top. i don't know why Kel takes it all at once (if thats what he meant) but normally it should be taken throughout the week.


Thanks for the input. I have crappy caps (2,000iu per cap I believe) but at the end of the day if quantity is correct, it's all the same.




> Drisdol is a _prescription_ D which is as stated, 50K IU and you only take it once a week. Works great. Vette uses the same item, same protocol. When my script runs out I won't refill it, I'll hit walmart and grab some and probably run with 5k per day or so.


Thanks for the clarification. As mentioned above, I picked up 2000iu gelcaps from Costco. Guess i'll just have to take a bunch of em'. I'll likely start with 6,000iu ED and add in the Nettles to see how things progress.




> For clarity: 
> 
> My T was upped slightly at the same time I added in the D and Nettle. All was done "in concert" to work together to achieve my goals. A little added T will push your SHBG down quicker than most anything else. Adding in the D and Nettle will give the added push to your shbg and when you go back to normal TRT levels, hopefully keep it there. As stated my next BW will be interesting to see if my theory works. I was also able to raise my E from a steady 16 to 26 where I'd like to keep it, although I think it will drop back down to its natural lower level.
> 
> kel


Noted, and thanks again for your input.  :Wink: 




> bump for the man brice!


I'm here man, usually take weekends off from the board lol! 




> Excellent thread! Great questions and input! 
> 
> I have nothing to offer other than support brother.
> 
> Good luck with this Brice. 
> 
> sub'd!


Thanks brother, much appreciated!

----------


## gbrice75

Well, tomorrow marks 2 weeks on TRT for me. Obviously nothing to note yet, but i'm hoping i'm one of those people who responds sooner than later. I did feel more energetic over the weekend, but that's likely just placebo effect. Hoping body composition changes are evident soon... within 6 months is being realistic, I believe (diet and training are in check).

----------


## Dpyle

Here's hoping gb. It took me a while to get my diet sorted after I went on but when I did I was able to recomp from 165 @ 20%bf to my current 160 @ about 12% in around 3 months time.

----------


## gbrice75

> Here's hoping gb. It took me a while to get my diet sorted after I went on but when I did I was able to recomp from 165 @ 20%bf to my current 160 @ about 12% in around 3 months time.


Wow bro... roughly 8lbs of bodyfat lost, 5lbs of LBM gained... awesome!

----------


## Dpyle

> Wow bro... roughly 8lbs of bodyfat lost, 5lbs of LBM gained... awesome!


Well sir I owe much of it to you. When I first signed up I was trying to bulk at 20%. You suggested a cut and pointed me in the right direction. Now I've started my bulk and have positioned myself to attempt my first show about a year from now, and for that I thank you.

----------


## gbrice75

> Well sir I owe much of it to you. When I first signed up I was trying to bulk at 20%. You suggested a cut and pointed me in the right direction. Now I've started my bulk and have positioned myself to attempt my first show about a year from now, and for that I thank you.


Man, I love hearing this. I sure hope you keep us posted as much as possible during contest prep!

----------


## Henryhill470

Anyone know of a good doc in charleston wv ? Or close by ?

----------


## gbrice75

> Anyone know of a good doc in charleston wv ? Or close by ?


Try starting your own thread brother. You'll likely get a lot more views that way.  :Wink:

----------


## Texkota

> I was able to recomp from 165 20-% bf to my current 160 about 12-% in around 3 months time.


That's freaking awesome, good job. Hopefully I'll be able to do the same. Five pounds and 8 percent is huge.

----------


## gbrice75

I have my first follow up appt. scheduled for Friday the 14th... looking forward to seeing lab results. Hoping to see some positive changes. Can you guys help me with what to ask to have tested, just in case my doc doesn't know it all (and i'm pretty sure he doesn't, working on a new doc): Here's what I can think of:

Test - free and total (obviously)
SHBG
Estrogen (E2/estradiol specifically, or just ask for estrogen?)
FSH
LH
Liver (what to specifically request here?)
Lipid panel (yay or nay? Anything specific?)
DHEA free & total (yay or nay?)
Pregnenolone (do they even test for this?)

Anything of importance i'm missing? Also, if anything isn't necessary (by necessary, I mean health wise, being cautious), i'd like to forego it as I basically have to pay for bloodwork out of pocket, so keeping cost down is in my best interest)

Please let me know, thanks guys!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Hey Brice, these are the ones i feel are important.. 

Free T4
Total Testosterone 
Biovailable Testosterone
Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH),
Luteneizing Hormone (LH),
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG),
Estrogen Levels
Cortisol Levels
Cholesterol Levels
Albumin 
DHT
DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone)
RBC (red blood count)
WBC (white blood count)
PSA
FERRITIN
IRON

----------


## zaggahamma

IGF

cuz u know your gonna wanna run that GH

----------


## gbrice75

> Hey Brice, these are the ones i feel are important.. 
> 
> Free T4
> Total Testosterone 
> Biovailable Testosterone
> Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH),
> Luteneizing Hormone (LH),
> Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG),
> Estrogen Levels
> ...


Thanks man! Anybody else want to add to this list and/or dispute anything currently on it? PSA will test for prostate enlargement, right? 




> IGF
> 
> cuz u know your gonna wanna run that GH


lol, not gonna happen man. Any other reason I should have IGF tested? I did have it tested for back in December and it was within normal range.

----------


## kelkel

Add in vit D.

----------


## gbrice75

> Add in vit D.


That your arm in the avy Kel? Fvcking sick. I'd love to have that! 

Update - made an appt. with a proper Endo (remember, my current doc is not and endo or uro and seems to have limited knowledge with regards to TRT) for October 10th as I want to make sure i'm being well taken care of with regards to all facets of bloodwork. I just hope we 'gel' together... i.e. he/she continues to 'honor' my existing protocol and tweak it, vs. telling me he/she won't continue to prescribe injections or something along those lines.

----------


## MickeyKnox

good luck Brice. still following along.. :Smilie:

----------


## kelkel

Yes from a couple days ago. Actually have one more relatively similar.....and thanks...old guys can still hang!

----------


## gbrice75

> good luck Brice. still following along..


Appreciate your continued support and input Mick!!  :Smilie: 




> Yes from a couple days ago. Actually have one more relatively similar.....and thanks...old guys can still hang!


Evidently so!!!

----------


## gbrice75

Bump... because I felt like it!  :Wink: 

So i'm at the tail end of week 4, and really not seeing/feeling much difference yet if any. I guess it's too soon... I need to give it another 4 weeks or so before I panic. I just hear about some guys noticing positive changes after 3 weeks, but I realize we all respond differently. I am just an impatient mofo and am already kicking myself in the ass for not having looked into TRT much sooner (as in years ago).

----------


## kelkel

You'll be fine. It's a marathon not a sprint.....

----------


## gbrice75

> You'll be fine. It's a marathon not a sprint.....


Definitely. I tell people this all the time in the nutrition forum, yet find it difficult to apply my own advice sometimes. 

I think my main problem is I start to get these irrational fears... like 'what if the pin isn't going in deep enough'? 'What if the test is no good (pharma grade purchased at a fvcking pharmacy, duh! Like I said... irrational). 'What if they check my levels and nothing has changed'? 'Am I just a freak case that doesn't respond to treatment'? I just need to stop being paranoid and let things happen.

On another note - I'm wondering what to look for with regards to testicular atrophy, aside from the obvious shrinkage. That particular marker is hard for me to gauge since I see/feel my onion bag every day. I've heard of pain (of which i'm experiencing none currently), discomfort, etc. Anything else I can use to gauge whether or not this should be a present concern? I intend to start HCG either way, but would like to be as informed as possible with what's going on in my body.

----------


## kelkel

> Definitely. I tell people this all the time in the nutrition forum, yet find it difficult to apply my own advice sometimes. *always different when it happens to you*
> 
> I think my main problem is I start to get these irrational fears... like 'what if the pin isn't going in deep enough'? 'What if the test is no good (pharma grade purchased at a fvcking pharmacy, duh! Like I said... irrational). 'What if they check my levels and nothing has changed'? 'Am I just a freak case that doesn't respond to treatment'? I just need to stop being paranoid and let things happen. *Back to the patience thing. Stop worrying.*
> 
> On another note - I'm wondering what to look for with regards to testicular atrophy, aside from the obvious shrinkage. That particular marker is hard for me to gauge since I see/feel my onion bag every day. I've heard of pain (of which i'm experiencing none currently), discomfort, etc. Anything else I can use to gauge whether or not this should be a present concern? I intend to start HCG either way, but would like to be as informed as possible with what's going on in my body.*Seriously more info than we needed. Read GD's sticky again. They are not going to turn into raisens or a mass of useless collagen overnight*



Easy does it. Shortly you will feel the difference. Referring to TRT, not your nuts.

----------


## zaggahamma

imo
ppl who are in great shape and/or havent been lowT for long and/or if youve recently cycled arent going to feel the same trt uphoria that others might

----------


## gbrice75

> Easy does it. Shortly you will feel the difference. Referring to TRT, not your nuts.


 :LOL:  Thanks brother!

----------


## gbrice75

> imo
> ppl who are in great shape and/or havent been lowT for long and/or if youve recently cycled arent going to feel the same trt uphoria that others might


Just saw this after responding to Kel. 

I haven't cycled in a year. At the moment, I am definitely not in great shape. Not terrible, but far from what i'd consider 'in shape'. Roughly around 15% bf atm. Re: low T - I have reason to believe I have been this way for many years, however I don't have the proof as I neglected regular (as in once per year) bloodwork throughout the years, and even when I did have it done, it was with uninformed docs who had no clue what they were looking at, not to mention free T was never tested for until I specifically requested it when looking into TRT. 

Short answer - who knows. Just biding my time, waiting for 'things' to happen.  :Smilie:

----------


## bass

no way 15%, you're much lower than that judging from your avi! hey GB, checkout my new blood work i just posted, its been about a year and half or so but getting there. patience my friend.

----------


## gbrice75

> no way 15%, you're much lower than that judging from your avi! hey GB, checkout my new blood work i just posted, its been about a year and half or so but getting there. patience my friend.


I'm not nearly as lean as I was in my avy right now.  :Cry: 

Saw the post, gonna go check it out now. Glad to hear you're getting there bro!

----------


## zaggahamma

yeh i understand what your saying g

as i figured i was low T for a long time if not forever

but i hadnt cycled in 17 years when i went on trt and i noticed a huge difference...was also over 20% bf but had been working hard in the gym and diet good...trt was VERY noticeable as there was no other change and i got under 15% and losing weight whilst gaining strength THE WHOLE time...someone like you thats already 15% and having cycled JUST a year ago(not sure if you pct'd?) but i JUST DONT think your gonna get some huge boost...you will just be able to get what you put in...which i know you dont expect more than that and i know you will put the effort in ive seen you do it before

----------


## gbrice75

> yeh i understand what your saying g
> 
> as i figured i was low T for a long time if not forever
> 
> but i hadnt cycled in 17 years when i went on trt and i noticed a huge difference...was also over 20% bf but had been working hard in the gym and diet good...trt was VERY noticeable as there was no other change and i got under 15% and losing weight whilst gaining strength THE WHOLE time...someone like you thats already 15% and having cycled JUST a year ago(not sure if you pct'd?) but i JUST DONT think your gonna get some huge boost...you will just be able to get what you put in...which i know you dont expect more than that and i know you will put the effort in ive seen you do it before


Definitely ran PCT - 5 weeks Clomid/Nolva and a few weeks of Caber at the tail end. 

I don't know what to expect to be honest. I guess I only expect what I've been saying all along - a level playing field. I watch guys around me every day who don't train as hard, don't diet as hard, have less knowledge, yet surpass me. I watch people around me grow muscle and change the shape of their bodies while I stay the same, day after day. Change in diet, training, sleep, etc. makes no difference. There HAS to be a key element missing, and i've pretty much eliminated all but hormones. So, basically I just want the same 'advantage' every other relatively normal guy has. Then I can really show what I'm capable of, drug free (and I do consider TRT to be drug free. I do not consider using test to bring levels up to where they SHOULD already be drug abuse).

----------


## zaggahamma

> Definitely ran PCT - 5 weeks Clomid/Nolva and a few weeks of Caber at the tail end. 
> 
> I don't know what to expect to be honest. I guess I only expect what I've been saying all along - a level playing field. I watch guys around me every day who don't train as hard, don't diet as hard, have less knowledge, yet surpass me. I watch people around me grow muscle and change the shape of their bodies while I stay the same, day after day. Change in diet, training, sleep, etc. makes no difference. There HAS to be a key element missing, and i've pretty much eliminated all but hormones. So, basically I just want the same 'advantage' every other relatively normal guy has. Then I can really show what I'm capable of, drug free (and I do consider TRT to be drug free. I do not consider using test to bring levels up to where they SHOULD already be drug abuse).


well as much as trt is not cheating...its not drug free..but then again a person with diabetes isnt a druggy or has an advantage..but i guess thats your point...but sometimes we have to come to terms...there may never be a level playing field for a lot of situations...ppl are born with different gifts...and boy did God make us all with such tremendously different bodies

----------


## Technologist

> No. I've been on TRT all summer. The only reason I never cycled was due to fear of needles. Now that I've overcome that I'd like to do a cycle.


As long as your lean you can use a 1/2" .5cc 31ga insulin needle and it will still go IM in your quad. 
It takes 2 minutes to draw but you can put it into your quad in seconds without pain or tissue damage. 

The needle is almost microscopic compared to the 19-21ga 1 1/2" lethal weapons most people use.

----------


## gbrice75

Going for my first follow up appointment today after starting TRT just over a month ago. Obviously getting BW done, and will post results up here as soon as I have them. I don't know what he plans to test for, but I'm giving him the following list - let me know if anything should be added or removed:

Total Test
Bioavailable Test OR Free Test
Estradiol
LH
FSH
CBC
Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
Lipid Profile

I left out DHEA to keep the cost down but if any of you feel it's necessary, i'll add it. By necessary, I mean health-affecting, i.e. something to monitor and make changes in the event levels rise or fall too far.

Wish me luck!

----------


## Vettester

Excellent!!! We will look for the results.

Any thyroid panels? Also, best to make sure the E2,assay is sensitive.

Fingers crossed!

----------


## gbrice75

> Excellent!!! We will look for the results.
> 
> Any thyroid panels?


If you think it's necessary/wise, I can ask for it. What's the specific test to ask for? Just a 'Thyroid Panel'?




> Also, best to make sure the E2,assay is sensitive.


How exactly do I say this? Like, what do I ask to be tested for... what's the terminology?




> Fingers crossed!


Thanks brother!

----------


## Vettester

G., here's a link to stop the thyroid madness ... #1 through 10 http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...ended-labwork/

Also, there's some great information throughout that site. Check it out.

Yes, on the E2 assay, the standard for men is the 'Sensitive' assay. Not sure how much deviation there is on the standard test, but the sensitive test won't leave any question marks with where you sit on your estradiol.

SHBG could also be put in the mix, but we can calculate that with your free & bio test + albumin, which will be in the other panels.

----------


## gbrice75

Thanks V!!!

Question - would asking for a 'complete thyroid panel' entail items 1-10 on the link above? Or, do I need to specifically ask for each of them?

----------


## Vettester

If you ask for a complete thyroid panel, it should have all the TSH, FT3, FT4, RT3, and antibodies. The ferritin and iron tests are essential as well. Without them, I would have never taken the next steps to discover that I'm a carrier for hemochromatosis. Unless already supplement B12 and D3, banking you might be low on them just the same. D3 is critical for managing stable SHBG levels, as well as so many other benefits to help balance your overall program.

Since you're doing them, you might as well get as much as possible, thus leaving no stones unturned.

----------


## gbrice75

I guess what i'll do this time around is vaguely ask for a complete thyroid panel, and see exactly what was tested for when the results come in. If anything from the list was left out, i'll specifically request it the next time.

----------


## bass

Kel listed a follow-up blood work in his Finding a Physician stikies,

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-TRT-Physician

also if your doc doesn’t do the sensitive assay you should be okay. recently i did blood work and had both E2 tests, standard and sensitive assay, both came very close on the scale. i believe sensitive assay scale is like 3-70 and standard is 7-42!

----------


## gbrice75

So, I had my appt. Obviously won't have results for a week or two, but we talked a bit. It's clear to me now (It kind of already was) that this guy's TRT knowledge is VERY limited and I need to find somebody else ASAP to make sure i'm in good hands. 

He ordered HCG for me (getting it through him as it's cheaper than any of the pharmacies I tried) and now recommended 2000iu a week, where he originally ordered 1000iu weekly. When I asked why, he said the doctor he uses as a resource that he gets the HCG from recommended that protocol, and knows MUCH more about it than he does. Hmm. Doesn't 2000iu sound kind of high to you guys to start with? 

He prescribed me Arimidex at my request. He wasn't thrilled... said he'd rather try natural supplementation first (I don't know what he specifically had in mind, but I just demanded Arimidex as I know what works) but wouldn't argue if that's what I wanted. Here's where it gets weird...

Without my asking, he prescribed me Proscar (Finasteride). When I asked why, he said something to the effect of "with the direction you're going with this, you might as well..." and I really didn't ask for further explanation. At the time, I wasn't sure what Proscar was (i.e. I didn't know it was Finasteride) so figured i'd just research when I got home. From what I've read about Finasteride, i'd rather stay away from it unless I actually need it. What do you guys think about him prescribing this, and about the drug in general?

Other than that, I just spit out all the labs I wanted tested for. There were quite a few he wasn't going to test for (CBC, Lipid, Metabolic Panel, etc) but didn't object to any I mentioned.

I told him that I split the test dosage to 2x weekly (he originally prescribed 1 shot a week) and he said it wasn't a bad idea, but really didn't go beyond that. So at this point, i'm just waiting on my labs and we'll see what's what. Also searching for an endo or urologist that knows what's up, ASAP!

----------


## bass

Do you live in southern California? LOL never heard of that drug either. IMO just stay with the standard TRT protocol for at least 6 months then consider adding other things.

----------


## kelkel

Look at this link and see if it helps. More in the finding a doc sticky.

http://www.a4m.com/directory.html?page=3&find=find

What area of NJ? I'm familiar with a good doc in the Cherry Hill area if you're near there. PM me.

----------


## gbrice75

> Do you live in southern California? LOL never heard of that drug either. IMO just stay with the standard TRT protocol for at least 6 months then consider adding other things.


lol no, why!?! I agree - I don't plan to fill the prescription, i'm just curious as to why he'd prescribe it without me making a single mention of DHT. PS - Finasteride basically inhibits the conversion of test into DHT, but is also known to have quite a few sides, potentially dangerous ones. That's why i'm surprised he just offered it to me without me ever mentioning anything.




> Look at this link and see if it helps. More in the finding a doc sticky.
> 
> http://www.a4m.com/directory.html?page=3&find=find
> 
> What area of NJ? I'm familiar with a good doc in the Cherry Hill area if you're near there. PM me.


Thx Kel, gonna check it out now. Re: Cherry Hill - damn, i'm on the East Coast, near Red Bank, literally 10 mins from the Ocean. Cherry Hill would be a hike, but if I strike out with finding a new doc, I may have to take you up on that. Thanks, much appreciated!  :Wink:

----------


## bass

> lol no, why!?!


Because I have a good doc!

----------


## gbrice75

> Because I have a good doc!


Gotcha! I wish. 

Bass et al., what do you think about my doc doubling my HCG dosage before even having started it?

I also forgot to mention previously that I talked to him about donating blood, how I learned from 'sources' that it's a good and necessary practice for those on TRT, etc. He said it certainly wasn't a bad idea, and a lot of people (not necessarily on HRT) do so to clean the iron out of their blood, but that of all the people he has on TRT, probably 3% of them need to do this, that blood tests never come back with anything that he's even remotely alarmed with. He said donating blood is much more necessary with anabolic steroid users. I'm not informed on the subject enough to get into it with him, so I let it go. But obviously I will likely need to donate monthly as discussed here.

----------


## bass

hCG is way too high, most of us here do 1000 a week tops, some do as low as 125 twice a week. the way clinics prescribe it is to take two 500 iu shot ed two days before you one weekly test shot. and if you are doing twice a week then do one shot one day before test shot then take your AI one day after test shot. once you get you follow up BW you will see your LH and FSH are almost shut down, that’s when you know you need to get on hCG or your boys will suffer. 

TRT raises your RBC and Iron, and it keeps going up to the point of making your blood thick to dangerous levels, your RBC, Hemoglobin and Hematocrit will go above normal. Donating will bring balance to all of them, make you healthier and help others!

----------


## gbrice75

> hCG is way too high, most of us here do 1000 a week tops, some do as low as 125 twice a week. the way clinics prescribe it is to take two 500 iu shot ed two days before you one weekly test shot. and if you are doing twice a week then do one shot one day before test shot then take your AI one day after test shot. once you get you follow up BW you will see your LH and FSH are almost shut down, that’s when you know you need to get on hCG or your boys will suffer.


Tbh, I wasn't even planning to wait for BW, I wanted to start HCG right away just didn't have it. I am having 20,000iu shipped to me so very soon i'll be gtg. I plan to stick with the 1000iu weekly; i'll likely do 300iu 3x weekly as a few members suggested earlier in this thread. 




> TRT raises your RBC and Iron, and it keeps going up to the point of making your blood thick to dangerous levels, your RBC, Hemoglobin and Hematocrit will go above normal. Donating will bring balance to all of them, make you healthier and help others!


I definitely plan to do it. Whether the doc agrees I need it or not doesn't really matter. So far, he appears to be willing to write me a script for just about anything I ask for (and even things I don't ask for, see Finasteride lol)!

With any luck, i'll be in better hands soon. I have an appt with a real endo on 10/10, and also found a DO in the link Kelkel provided above (thanks Kel!) who happens to be in my insurance network, so if I strike out with the endo, i'll immediately schedule a consultation with the DO. 

Either way, I may keep this guy 'on hand' just in case I need anything down the road. i.e. I don't think i'll tell him i'm seeing other docs, might just keep up appearances in his office here and there to look legit.

----------


## kelkel

GB don't just waste appointments. Call the staff and interview them briefly regarding treatment protocols (can't hurt.) One of the nurses will give you the low-down. You don't need to waste your time and theirs.

----------


## gbrice75

> GB don't just waste appointments. Call the staff and interview them briefly regarding treatment protocols (can't hurt.) One of the nurses will give you the low-down. You don't need to waste your time and theirs.


I agree with you 100%. When I started my 'quest', I did exactly that - called, asked if they 'dealt with' TRT, then scheduled an appt. My first was a flop and complete waste of $175. I'm a bit wiser now and definitely ask a few key questions first. I don't want to get to an appt. just to find out they'll only prescribe gel or something. At this point, I feel I have the upper hand. I'm already prescribed TRT by another physician. I just simply tell them i'm looking for a good doc who will continue prescribing my current protocol (injectable, self-administered, AI, HCG , etc) but work with me to monitor BW and adjust accordingly to maximize benefits and minimize downsides.

----------


## Shol'va

> Gotcha! I wish. 
> 
> Bass et al., what do you think about my doc doubling my HCG dosage before even having started it?
> 
> I also forgot to mention previously that I talked to him about donating blood, how I learned from 'sources' that it's a good and necessary practice for those on TRT, etc. He said it certainly wasn't a bad idea, and a lot of people (not necessarily on HRT) do so to clean the iron out of their blood, but that of all the people he has on TRT, probably 3% of them need to do this, that blood tests never come back with anything that he's even remotely alarmed with. He said donating blood is much more necessary with anabolic steroid users. I'm not informed on the subject enough to get into it with him, so I let it go. * But obviously I will likely need to donate monthly as discussed here.*


I'm hoping that is just a typo and you mean every other month. The blood donor banks here in Mo.will only allow every 2 months minimum. The bad thing for me is they use a friggen *16 gauge needle* to shove up in your vein. The needle is almost a big as your poor ole vein in your arm. And they say well your gonna feel a slight sting all while they replace the wood piece they put in your mouth as you have just bitten it into two pieces. I've felt less pain when things are shoved into other areas. Ok I'm a wuss..lol

----------


## bass

> I'm hoping that is just a typo and you mean every other month. The blood donor banks here in Mo.will only allow every 2 months minimum. The bad thing for me is they use a friggen *16 gauge needle* to shove up in your vein. The needle is almost a big as your poor ole vein in your arm. And they say well your gonna feel a slight sting all while they replace the wood piece they put in your mouth as you have just bitten it into two pieces. I've felt less pain when things are shoved into other areas. Ok I'm a wuss..lol


Wait a minute Shol! you donate?! do you answer all questions honestly?

----------


## gbrice75

> I'm hoping that is just a typo and you mean every other month. The blood donor banks here in Mo.will only allow every 2 months minimum. The bad thing for me is they use a friggen *16 gauge needle* to shove up in your vein. The needle is almost a big as your poor ole vein in your arm. And they say well your gonna feel a slight sting all while they replace the wood piece they put in your mouth as you have just bitten it into two pieces.


WTF? I understand getting things done quickly, but this is BS!!! Nobody's sticking a 16g needle in me!!




> I've felt less pain when things are shoved into other areas.


 :LOL:

----------


## bass

its not that bad unless the idiots go through your vein and right into the muscle, they did that few times to me and gave me a blue arm for two weeks! shit even i can do it with one hand tied behind my back, sort of!

----------


## kelkel

> I agree with you 100%. When I started my 'quest', I did exactly that - called, asked if they 'dealt with' TRT, then scheduled an appt. My first was a flop and complete waste of $175. I'm a bit wiser now and definitely ask a few key questions first. I don't want to get to an appt. just to find out they'll only prescribe gel or something. At this point, I feel I have the upper hand. I'm already prescribed TRT by another physician. I just simply tell them i'm looking for a good doc who will continue prescribing my current protocol (injectable, self-administered, AI, HCG, etc) but work with me to monitor BW and adjust accordingly to maximize benefits and minimize downsides.


Outstanding GB. Couple simple questions get it done.





> I'm hoping that is just a typo and you mean every other month. The blood donor banks here in Mo.will only allow every 2 months minimum. The bad thing for me is they use a friggen *16 gauge needle* to shove up in your vein. The needle is almost a big as your poor ole vein in your arm. And they say well your gonna feel a slight sting all while they replace the wood piece they put in your mouth as you have just bitten it into two pieces. I've felt less pain when things are shoved into other areas. Ok I'm a wuss..lol


Hysterical Shol'va!

----------


## dreadnok89

Hey gbrice, im a new member man. I live right next to u in highlands. You find any descent doctors? If you dont mind telling me. Get this bud, every year my test was getting lower and lower. I wasstill lifting heavy, i was still doing 405 on the flat bench but it took forever to recoup. Im glad i went to my doctor. Hes not to good in the hrt section tho.

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## Shol'va

> *Wait a minute Shol! you donate?!*  *do you answer all questions honestly?*


No because some are too personal.  :Frown:  However, since they check the blood for those diseases anyways I don't feel bad about that part. And before I ever started donating, I privately asked off record one of the techs who worked there, who was gay, if they check all blood every time for HIV and such and he said absolutely yes without fail. And if It comes back tainted the blood is flagged and tossed out and the donor is contacted right away and put on a list to never be accepted again. And besides I'm as careful as one can be when I do my private thing anyways. Plus I get checked regularly for those diseases. Negative every time knock on wood.. :Smilie:  I would never ever donate if it weren't checked. I would never want something like that on my conscience. Although some druggies don't give a flying fvck when they donate for more drug money at other places that pay for blood donations.

----------


## gbrice75

> Hey gbrice, im a new member man. I live right next to u in highlands. You find any descent doctors? If you dont mind telling me. Get this bud, every year my test was getting lower and lower. I wasstill lifting heavy, i was still doing 405 on the flat bench but it took forever to recoup. Im glad i went to my doctor. Hes not to good in the hrt section tho.


I haven an appt with an endo next month, but he's not really in our area - he's in Piscataway. I'll let you know how it goes if you're interested.

----------


## gbrice75

Update: So I received my HCG in the mail (mailed from a pharmacy my doc deals with and ordered for me from). I reconstituted it but want to make sure I did it right, and will be dosing correctly. Bear with me guys, i'm practically retarded when it comes to math.  :Wink: 

10,000iu in a 10mL vial
10mL Bact. water in a separate vial

I drew all the water out and added to the HCG vial and lightly shook it up. So I should be looking at 10mL = 10,000iu HCG, or 1mL = 1,000iu (my weekly dosage) HCG. Now, for actual dosing:

I have 31g insulin pins, they're 1/2mL each. The markers start at zero and goes up to 50 - so when full, I should be looking at 500iu HCG. If i'm correct, then I should be filling these to the 30 marker (300iu) as I'll be pinning these 3x weekly, putting me at ~900iu weekly. Is my math all accurate so far? I know guys, this is 2nd grade shit. Please don't hold it against me!!

Now, I see people dosing HCG on certain days (e.g. day before pinning, etc) but don't really see the rationale behind it. I currently pin my test Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings, and would like to keep it simple and pin my HCG Mon/Wed/Fri. Any problem with that, seeing as none of those days fall before a test shot?

Thanks as always for your help!

----------


## bass

you could have saved yourself the huge hCG injection and mixed it as outlined in GDevine's thread (hCG Sticky), you could have done 2 ml water per 5000 ius! you should be fine though, and next time DON"T shake it, simply Roll it in your hands gently, do this only when you constitute the hCG, no need to repeat. based on your math you are correct, full syringe 1/2 ml = 500iu.

----------


## kelkel

Go here: http://peptidecalculator.com/calculator.php This way you will see exactly what you're doing and be confident with it.

Next time you load don't use all the BA. Only use 4ml and for example if you pulled back to 10 on your pin you'd be at 250 IU. MWF is just fine. It's actually what I do and several others here. Have you by chance read GD's sticky on HCG ? Good read and goes into mixing, etc.

kel

----------


## gbrice75

> you could have saved yourself the huge hCG injection and mixed it as outlined in GDevine's thread (hCG Sticky), you could have done 2 ml water per 5000 ius! you should be fine though, and next time DON"T shake it, simply Roll it in your hands gently, do this only when you constitute the hCG, no need to repeat. based on your math you are correct, full syringe 1/2 ml = 500iu.


Thanks man. I kind of just wanted to make it easy (there again with the math) and have 1mL = 1000iu or my weekly dosage. I haven't read GD's sticky but will now!  :Wink: 




> Go here: http://peptidecalculator.com/calculator.php This way you will see exactly what you're doing and be confident with it.
> 
> Next time you load don't use all the BA. Only use 4ml and for example if you pulled back to 10 on your pin you'd be at 250 IU. MWF is just fine. It's actually what I do and several others here. Have you by chance read GD's sticky on HCG ? Good read and goes into mixing, etc.
> 
> kel


Thanks Kel. I have another 10,000iu waiting for when I need it, so i'll check out his sticky and rethink my ratios next time. Glad to know that there's nothing wrong with what I did, per se.

----------


## dreadnok89

i started using hcg cause the andro gel i was on shut off my sac. i dont like using hrt without hcg. when my sack gets smaller and shrivelled up i noticed i have alot more pissing more at night and its highly annoying. i just ran out of hcg :{

----------


## Technologist

> Wait a minute Shol! you donate?! do you answer all questions honestly?


Actually Doctor Prescribed TRT is allowed by "some" Hospitals (I would be careful on that one as some might black list you). I donated at Hoag in Newport and when my Hemoglobin was above 18 they allowed me to donate because TRT raises Hemoglobin but the donated blood is not hurt by TRT. 

Also I've temporarily dropped my Hemoglobin to 14.7 by taking glycergrow (Glycerol MonoStearate) Glycerol really does increase the concentration of the fluid in your blood. That added vascularity is a higher blood volume and hence it's diluting your blood. It's very effective if you need to slip under the cut off point on the Hemoglobin test. It can temporarily knock your Hemoglobin down 1-2 points. Glycerol raises blood pressure in some people so if you have borderline high blood pressure is could raise it enough to disallow the donation.

----------


## Technologist

> Without my asking, he prescribed me Proscar (Finasteride). When I asked why, he said something to the effect of "with the direction you're going with this, you might as well..." and I really didn't ask for further explanation. At the time, I wasn't sure what Proscar was (i.e. I didn't know it was Finasteride) so figured i'd just research when I got home. From what I've read about Finasteride, i'd rather stay away from it unless I actually need it. What do you guys think about him prescribing this, and about the drug in general?


He's prescribing it preemptively for your prostate 5mg or 1mg for hair loss. The stuff is not something you want to take. Just read the endless anti Finasteride forums of men messed up for years or life from the permanent Finasteride side effects.


Example: 

propeciahelp.com

----------


## kelkel

^^^Agree. Just start low dose daily cialis for BPH and all the other added benefits.

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsro.../ucm274642.htm

----------


## gbrice75

> i started using hcg cause the andro gel i was on shut off my sac. i dont like using hrt without hcg. when my sack gets smaller and shrivelled up i noticed i have alot more pissing more at night and its highly annoying. i just ran out of hcg :{


I've been wondering about this. How bad can it get, physically? I realize it's not supposed to happen overnight, but I can SWEAR my nuts are shrinking. I'm willing to bet it's placebo and/or psychosomatic... but I can't help it. How small can one expect (if one were to inject exogenous test with HCG indefinitely) their testes to shrink? Literally like raisins? 




> He's prescribing it preemptively for your prostate 5mg or 1mg for hair loss. The stuff is not something you want to take. Just read the endless anti Finasteride forums of men messed up for years or life from the permanent Finasteride side effects.
> 
> 
> Example: 
> 
> propeciahelp.com


Agreed, I've read plenty on Fina and am not interested in taking it. Too many negatives from what I've read. 




> ^^^Agree. Just start low dose daily cialis for BPH and all the other added benefits.
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsro.../ucm274642.htm


Not familiar with benefits of Cialis, but i'll check out the link, thanks. Re: BPH - do you feel this is something that should be dealt with proactively/preventative, or addressed if/when needed? i.e. are there cases where the prostate isn't affected negatively at all in some people?

In the meantime, I should have my 1 month lab results within a few days. I'm very curious to see test levels, because to be honest i'm at the tail end of week 6 and still don't really feel/notice any benefits. Which leads back to my 'irrational/paranoid thoughts'. Read on...

I inject in my quads only (just easiest for me) and currently use a 1" pin. My legs aren't particularly fatty (but nothing like Kel's lol) yet i'm wondering if I should switch to 1.5"? I am worried that i'm just not getting into the muscle enough. I'll await lab results to see where test levels are at, but I am curious about this.

Also started HCG Friday. 300iu injected right into my belly fat (which there is currently PLENTY of, so no problem pinching). Anybody prefer IM injections of HCG vs. SubQ? If so, why? Also, how does one accomplish this with a tiny little slin needle?

----------


## kelkel

Not necessarily proactively but it's just a great bonus (er) to cialis treatment. I don't do quads but I can't imagine a 1" pin not being effective. Never done IM with HCG . Stomach is just easy. 

Try to be patient (not easy, we know.) People metabolize differently and there's no magic time frame to suddenly feeling great.

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## gbrice75

^^ Thanks Kel, as always. 

PS - congrats on making Monitor!!! Excellent choice!!

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## gbrice75

This is my first set of labs since starting TRT. Blood taken approx. 5 weeks after starting. Brief refresher - i'm on 200mg test cyp/week split into 2 shots every 3.5 days. Started 300iu HCG 3x weekly (M W F) about a week ago. Note: I don't know exactly what to post other than the obvious (test, SHBG, E2, etc) but did get the metabolic panel, lipid panel, CBC, etc. I just don't know what's critical to post here and what isn't, so if you don't see it but want to, let me know and i'll throw it up here!

*Lipids*
Cholesterol, total 151 mg/dL (100-199)
Triglycerides 67 mg/dL (0-149)
HDL Cholesterol 47 mg/dL (>39)
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 13 mg/dL (5-40)
LDL Cholesterol Calc 91 mg/dL (0-99)
T. Chol/HDL Ratio 3.2 ratio units (0.0 - 5.0)


*CBC*
WBC 9.7 x10E3/uL (4.0-10.5)
RBC 5.17 x10E6/uL (4.14-5.80)
Hemoglobin 15.8 g/dL (12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 46.1 % (37.5-51)
*Note:* _There's quite a few more results for CBC. Let me know what else you'd like/need to see._

*PSA Total+% Free*
Prostate Specific Ag, Serum (Roche ECLIA methodology) 0.2 ng/mL (0.0-4.0)
PSA, Free 0.13 ng/mL (N/A)
% Free PSA 65.0 % (N/A)

*Testosterone, Free & Total*
Testosterone , Serum 1261 ng/dL (348-1197)
Free Testosterone (Direct) 32.7 pg/mL (8.7-25.1)

*LH* 0.1 mIU/mL (1.7-8.6) low, expected

*FSH*  <0.2 mIU/mL (1.5-12.4) low, expected

*Thyroxine (T4) Free (Direct)* 1.13 ng/dL (0.82-1.77)

*DHEA, Serum* 58 ng/dL (31-701) *note:* _need to start supplementing to bring this up_

*TSH*  2.830 uIU/mL (0.450-4.500)

*Estradiol (Roche ECLIA methodology)*  23.8 pg/mL (7.6-42.6) Looking decent?? *Note:* _I asked for the sensitive assay, but don't see that noted anywhere in the results... ??_

*Thyroxine (T4)*  6.6 ug/dL (4.5-12.0)

*Triiodothyronine (T3)* 127 ng/dL (71-180)

*SHBG, Serum*  42.2 nmol/L (16.5-55.9) * Note:* _This is about 10 points lower than my last labs before starting, but I still want to get it much lower. Started Vitamin D3, going to start Stinging Nettles next_

Well, that's everything I have that I thought was of interest for our purpose here. Let me know what you think and what I should discuss with my doc. Next appt. to review these labs in 2 weeks.

----------


## Vettester

G, I read GD's comments on the other thread, and of course that is pretty spot-on from his part!

It does appear your program is quite effective. As GD mentioned, I also think you will ultimately need to tweak things down a bit in order to sustain a balanced program for the long-haul.

Plus, adding the DHEA as he suggested (plus look into Pregnenolone as well), it will also increase some conversion activity as it travels downstream. IMO, with adding those compounds, you could essentially reduce your test to 100mg or 120mg at most and be miles ahead of most!

Additionally, yes, the vitamin D will help with the SHBG, especially if stacked with nettle root. I also suspect your B12 might be low, and would encourage cycling B12 methylcobalamin throughout your protocol ... I can discuss my protocol with this if you're interested. 

Lastly, it would IMO be beneficial to see your metabolic profile, just to make sure some of your organ functions are in order. In time, as you get further into your protocol, your RBC's and hematocrit values will probably take a turn for the negative. Donating blood on a regular basis will be the best way to keep that in check.

Good job for grabbing hold of this and staying committed. It's just a process of patience and determination! "We get by with a little help from our friends."

----------


## kelkel

What Vette said. TSH a tad high. More modern scale is .3 - 3.0 but your metabolism is undergoing many changes right now so see where it is on your next panels. Glad your shbg dropped. It did so because of the added test. Quickest way to drop it is to increase your test dosage, which you did. Only time will tell where it stays. D and nettles should hopefully impact it over time as well. If all else fails when it comes to shbg look into Danazol down the road. Crisler will use it if needed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6594001

kel

----------


## t-dogg

great read. keep us posted.

----------


## gbrice75

> G, I read GD's comments on the other thread, and of course that is pretty spot-on from his part!
> 
> It does appear your program is quite effective. As GD mentioned, I also think you will ultimately need to tweak things down a bit in order to sustain a balanced program for the long-haul.


No doubt. Ready and willing. 




> Plus, adding the DHEA as he suggested (plus look into Pregnenolone as well), it will also increase some conversion activity as it travels downstream. IMO, with adding those compounds, you could essentially reduce your test to 100mg or 120mg at most and be miles ahead of most!


That'd be awesome!! I do plan to supplement both DHEA and Preg.




> Additionally, yes, the vitamin D will help with the SHBG, especially if stacked with nettle root. I also suspect your B12 might be low, and would encourage cycling B12 methylcobalamin throughout your protocol ... I can discuss my protocol with this if you're interested.


Definitely interested. I've seen some say they felt B12 was a waste of time, and others who swear by it.




> Lastly, it would IMO be beneficial to see your metabolic profile, just to make sure some of your organ functions are in order.


Can you let me know some specifics as to what you'd like to see? I'm just not very good at reading these reports and don't know what is what other than specific names that jump out at me (e.g. estradiol, testosterone , etc)




> In time, as you get further into your protocol, your RBC's and hematocrit values will probably take a turn for the negative. Donating blood on a regular basis will be the best way to keep that in check.


Definitely. Both looked high, based on the given range. Not above, but close to the top number of the range.




> Good job for grabbing hold of this and staying committed. It's just a process of patience and determination! "We get by with a little help from our friends."


Thanks for your support brother!




> What Vette said. TSH a tad high. More modern scale is .3 - 3.0 but your metabolism is undergoing many changes right now so see where it is on your next panels.


This would also explain why I have a tough time shedding bodyfat once down to the 11-12% range.




> Glad your shbg dropped. It did so because of the added test. Quickest way to drop it is to increase your test dosage, which you did. Only time will tell where it stays. D and nettles should hopefully impact it over time as well. If all else fails when it comes to shbg look into Danazol down the road. Crisler will use it if needed.


Thanks for the info. Will be starting with D and Nettles and monitor. Not sure how long I should give it however - 3 months?




> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6594001
> 
> kel


Thx as always Kel!




> great read. keep us posted.


Thanks T, appreciate the support!

----------


## t-dogg

I sent you a pm also btw.

----------


## Vettester

G., on the metabolic panel, we are looking at various things, including kidney function, possible stress indicators on the liver with enzyme tests, and various urinalysis & protein tests. The metabolic panel will usually be an all inclusive set of assays, so no need to order a al carte.

On the B12, look for the methylcobalamin in liquid. You can cycle it in every couple of months with your TRT protocol with just adding 500mcg with each injection for a month. The standard version is cyancobalamin, which is chemically synthesized and contains the cyanide molecule (seriously). Methyl is what you will find naturally in plants and tissue, and is bio identical to what's produced in your own body. That is the stuff that works, and I am pretty confident that you will see it's benefits. It's a little pricey (or can be), and it's not as easy to locate. Ask your doc if he can write a script.

----------


## gbrice75

> G., on the metabolic panel, we are looking at various things, including kidney function, possible stress indicators on the liver with enzyme tests, and various urinalysis & protein tests. The metabolic panel will usually be an all inclusive set of assays, so no need to order a al carte.
> 
> On the B12, look for the methylcobalamin in liquid. You can cycle it in every couple of months with your TRT protocol with just adding 500mcg with each injection for a month. The standard version is cyancobalamin, which is chemically synthesized and contains the cyanide molecule (seriously). Methyl is what you will find naturally in plants and tissue, and is bio identical to what's produced in your own body. That is the stuff that works, and I am pretty confident that you will see it's benefits. It's a little pricey (or can be), and it's not as easy to locate. Ask your doc if he can write a script.


Thx for all the info Vet. Sorry, I should have been more specific re: the metabolic panel. What would you want to see in terms of the test? i.e. what specific 'words' should I look for so I know what to post up here?

----------


## MickeyKnox

including the info provided by GD, all of this is outstanding! ive been waiting for this.  :Smilie:

----------


## Vettester

> Thx for all the info Vet. Sorry, I should have been more specific re: the metabolic panel. What would you want to see in terms of the test? i.e. what specific 'words' should I look for so I know what to post up here?


Specifically looking at enzyme tests related to liver function (ALT, AST, Billirubin), Kidney (BUN & Creatine), Electrolytes (Chloride, CO2, Potassium, Sodium), Glucose & Calcium, and your total protein, including Albumin. In some cases they will also take a urine sample to gather additional related information.

----------


## gbrice75

> Specifically looking at enzyme tests related to liver function (ALT, AST, Billirubin), Kidney (BUN & Creatine), Electrolytes (Chloride, CO2, Potassium, Sodium), Glucose & Calcium, and your total protein, including Albumin. In some cases they will also take a urine sample to gather additional related information.


Thanks man. They didn't take a urine sample this time, but when I have the results in my hands (i'm at work currently, can't you tell!?!  :LOL:  ) i'll post up what I do have. I recall seeing BUN, Creatine, etc.

----------


## xcedrin

I have low T 116 and free t of 5.3. I have been trying to get future wife pregnant for 4 years. Which is how I found out about this. Just thought I was different than everyone for the longest time. Now I'm anxious but nervous to get on T. My swimmer count was normal at 110.3 million and im wondering how much will the therapy effect this? Current endo will not prescribe T until we are successful in trying. However called a low t clinic who suggested i get on T now. I'm afraid of the possibility of never being able to produce swimmers again. Advice and/or thoughts? I'm anxious to get on TRT as I feel I have lost focus, lots of energy, tired, really lost interest in the gym after finding this out but still go on a regular basis, and other common syptoms associated with low T.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I have low T 116 and free t of 5.3. I have been trying to get future wife pregnant for 4 years. Which is how I found out about this. Just thought I was different than everyone for the longest time. Now I'm anxious but nervous to get on T. My swimmer count was normal at 110.3 million and im wondering how much will the therapy effect this?


welcome to the forums xcedrin. 

please start your own thread with this question and people will be more than happy to address your concerns. thanks  :Smilie:

----------


## xcedrin

Wasn't trying to hijack this thread just found it by a google search. Will do

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Wasn't trying to hijack this thread just found it by a google search. Will do


right on brother!  :Smilie:

----------


## gbrice75

> Wasn't trying to hijack this thread just found it by a google search. Will do


Of all the threads on all the boards across the internet, Google search decides to pull up mine on a TRT search... figures!!!

No worries brother.  :Wink:

----------


## oldnsedentary

> I have results for serum test - 586 (348-1197)


 This does not seem low enough to be considering TRT.

----------


## gbrice75

> This does not seem low enough to be considering TRT.


Please read through the entire thread. This was my test reading from over a year ago. Recent labs done in August had me at 346 (2 points below the lowest number in the reference range). Furthermore, free test (which we're more concerned with) wasn't tested for on the original labs, but was back in August and was quite low, around 5 or so.

----------


## oldnsedentary

> Please read through the entire thread.


 I tried, but it's 7 pages!  :LOL:

----------


## gbrice75

> I tried, but it's 7 pages!


lol, I hear you. You should see some of my threads in the Nutrition forum...  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## MickeyKnox

i just read your update thread. excellent news bro! 

a request: if it's not a bother, could you keep your updates here GB? i would appreciate it very very much my friend. following along and enjoying every minute.  :Smilie:

----------


## gbrice75

> i just read your update thread. excellent news bro! 
> 
> a request: if it's not a bother, could you keep your updates here GB? i would appreciate it very very much my friend. following along and enjoying every minute.


No problem brother, trying to for the most part. Hasn't been much to update on lately, but I did have a doc appt today.

He kept me at 200mg/week although I was a bit over the reference range on both free and total test. I'll probably drop it to 160mg/week on my own. I'll be doing new labs in a month and we'll see where things are at then. He didn't seem concerned. 

Re: my recent thread about gyno - I did find a small hard 'lump', but upon further examination I believe it was a bite of some sort, maybe a spider or something. Explains the bump and associated soreness. Already gone, no more soreness or anything, so I think i'm gtg and E2 probably didn't elevate much after all, or at least not to a point of causing gyno symptoms. We'll find out in 30 days. 

Other than that, I just ordered DHEA and Pregnenolone, finally. Looking forward to starting those. Also ordered stinging nettles to work on dropping SHBG a bit. I have D3 at home but need to get in the habit of consistently taking it. Labs did show vitamin D slightly low, so I need it either way.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> ...Re: my recent thread about gyno - I did find a small hard 'lump', but upon further examination I believe it was a bite of some sort, *maybe a spider or something*..........


wut?


you were at 1261 for t levels, iirc. this was at current dosing 200/wk? looking forward to your next set of bloods. 

and thanks bro  :Smilie:

----------


## gbrice75

> wut?
> 
> 
> you were at 1261 for t levels, iirc. this was at current dosing 200/wk? looking forward to your next set of bloods. 
> 
> and thanks bro


Yep, something like that - a bit over the high end of the range, and yes that was at 200/week. I don't think that will necessarily equate to gyno though. E2 was at like 29 if I recall. 

I'm looking forward to my next labs as well! I've already decided to drop to 160mg/week and see how that goes.

----------


## gbrice75

Just received my pregnenolone, DHEA, and stinging nettles. Just want to make sure I have this all in order regarding dosages.

DHEA - 50mg in the am
Pregnenolone - 50mg in the am
Stinging Nettles - I have no idea. I bought Freeze-dried stinging nettles, 420mg per pill. Any recommendations on dosages... both how much, and ideal time(s) of day?

----------


## RaginCajun

> Just received my pregnenolone, DHEA, and stinging nettles. Just want to make sure I have this all in order regarding dosages.
> 
> DHEA - 50mg in the am
> Pregnenolone - 50mg in the am
> *Stinging Nettles* - I have no idea. I bought Freeze-dried stinging nettles, 420mg per pill. Any recommendations on dosages... both how much, and ideal time(s) of day?



what the hell is that? is it for BPH/prostate health?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> what the hell is that? is it for BPH/prostate health?


from the net..

*General Uses*

Stinging nettle has been used for hundreds of years to treat painful muscles and joints, eczema, arthritis, gout, and anemia. Today, many people use it to treat urinary problems during the early stages of an enlarged prostate (called benign prostatic hyperplasia or BPH), for urinary tract infections, for hay fever (allergic rhinitis), or in compresses or creams for treating joint pain, sprains and strains, tendonitis, and insect bites.
*
Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH)*

Stinging nettle root is used widely in Europe to treat BPH. Studies in people suggest that stinging nettle, in combination with other herbs (especially saw palmetto), may be effective at relieving symptoms, such as reduced urinary flow, incomplete emptying of the bladder, post urination dripping, and the constant urge to urinate. These symptoms are caused by the enlarged prostate gland pressing on the urethra (the tube that empties urine from the bladder). Laboratory studies have shown stinging nettle to be comparable to finasteride (a medication commonly prescribed for BPH) in slowing the growth of certain prostate cells. However, unlike finasteride, the herb does not decrease prostate size. Scientists aren't sure why nettle root reduces symptoms. It may be because it contains chemicals that affect hormones (including testosterone and estrogen), or because it acts directly on prostate cells. It is important to work with a doctor to treat BPH, and to make sure you have a proper diagnosis to rule out prostate cancer.

*Osteoarthritis*

The leaves and stems of nettle have been used historically to treat arthritis and for sore muscles. Studies have been small and not conclusive, but they do suggest that some people find relief from joint pain by applying nettle leaf topically to the painful area. A few other studies show that taking an oral extract of stinging nettle, along with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), allowed people to reduce their NSAID dose.

*Hay fever*

One preliminary human study suggested that nettle capsules helped reduce sneezing and itching in people with hay fever. Researchers think that may be due to nettle's ability to reduce the amount of histamine the body produces in response to an allergen. More studies are needed to confirm nettle's antihistamine properties, however. Some doctors recommend taking a freeze dried preparation of stinging nettle well before hay fever season starts.
*
Other*

Some preliminary animal studies indicate that nettle may lower blood sugar and blood pressure, but there is not enough evidence to say whether this is also true in humans.

Read more: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/s...#ixzz29ZemB082

----------


## RaginCajun

> from the net..
> 
> *General Uses*
> 
> Stinging nettle has been used for hundreds of years to treat painful muscles and joints, eczema, arthritis, gout, and anemia. Today, many people use it to treat urinary problems during the early stages of an enlarged prostate (called benign prostatic hyperplasia or BPH), for urinary tract infections, for hay fever (allergic rhinitis), or in compresses or creams for treating joint pain, sprains and strains, tendonitis, and insect bites.
> *
> Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH)*
> 
> Stinging nettle root is used widely in Europe to treat BPH. Studies in people suggest that stinging nettle, in combination with other herbs (especially saw palmetto), may be effective at relieving symptoms, such as reduced urinary flow, incomplete emptying of the bladder, post urination dripping, and the constant urge to urinate. These symptoms are caused by the enlarged prostate gland pressing on the urethra (the tube that empties urine from the bladder). Laboratory studies have shown stinging nettle to be comparable to finasteride (a medication commonly prescribed for BPH) in slowing the growth of certain prostate cells. However, unlike finasteride, the herb does not decrease prostate size. Scientists aren't sure why nettle root reduces symptoms. It may be because it contains chemicals that affect hormones (including testosterone and estrogen), or because it acts directly on prostate cells. It is important to work with a doctor to treat BPH, and to make sure you have a proper diagnosis to rule out prostate cancer.
> ...


thanks bud!

----------


## gbrice75

> what the hell is that? is it for BPH/prostate health?


It may have other benefits as mentioned, but I'm strictly using it (or planning to) in conjunction with D3 in an effort to lower my SHBG and free up more test.

----------


## gbrice75

Bump for feedback on dosage recommendations for stinging nettles.  :Smilie:

----------


## kelkel

I take 2-3 per day at 480mg each. I look at it more as a supplement to my D protocol and hope it gives an added bump, so to speak.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> thanks bud!


You're welcome. 




> It may have other benefits as mentioned, but I'm strictly using it (or planning to) in conjunction with D3 in an effort to lower my SHBG and free up more test.


Quick question Brice: I don't have the actual "leafy" stinging nettle, but i do use the pharmacy Life brand and simply follow the dose on the bottle. I know, lol not the same thing. But my question is, is there a huge difference in your opinion Brice? Enough hat I should source out the physical nettle?

----------


## gbrice75

> I take 2-3 per day at 480mg each. I look at it more as a supplement to my D protocol and hope it gives an added bump, so to speak.


Thanks Kel. I'll start with 2/day along with 6000iu D3 per day and see what next month's labs look like. Any issue with the 'type' I have - i.e. freeze-dried?




> Quick question Brice: I don't have the actual "leafy" stinging nettle, but i do use the pharmacy Life brand and simply follow the dose on the bottle. I know, lol not the same thing. But my question is, is there a huge difference in your opinion Brice? Enough hat I should source out the physical nettle?


See above. I know about as much as you about it, lol. Kel might be able to answer. At this point I can't give an opinion but hopefully in a few months i'll be more informed from a personal standpoint.  :Wink:

----------


## joebailey1271

Hey GB, So are you still on the 200mg, or did u drop it to 160mg. Did u ever start the AI?

----------


## gbrice75

> Hey GB, So are you still on the 200mg, or did u drop it to 160mg. Did u ever start the AI?


Hey all, sorry I haven't updated lately, not much to report, just doing my thing. @Joebailey - currently still on 200mg/day. The doc didn't see anything alarming about my levels being slightly above the reference range. I considered lowering it but honestly I don't see what benefit it would provide me at this point. I'll be going for labs shortly and will post up the latest results once I have them in hand.

One thing though - I inject exclusively in my quads. Once in a while I bleed; I assume I nicked a vein while pinning. I always aspirate so I know i'm not IN a vein/vessel, but when I pull out I sometimes get blood. I get worried that the juice is leaking out as well. I have an alcohol pad ready every time I pull out, and the blood looks like 'pasta sauce' (i.e. oily). Any way to avoid this? I get concerned that i'm losing most if not all of my injection from time to time.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Re: oil leaking out. 

You could try leaving the needle in a bit longer ie 30secs. 

Looking forward to seeing your new set of labs bro!

----------


## joebailey1271

u could use a z track method, or put a small air bubble behind the oil to push it in further.

----------


## TennTarheel

If you're having a lot of leakage(that sounds funny) , I would slow the injection down even more and, as already mentioned, don't pull the needle out right away.

----------


## gbrice75

> Re: oil leaking out. 
> 
> You could try leaving the needle in a bit longer ie 30secs. 
> 
> Looking forward to seeing your new set of labs bro!


It never even occurred to me that would make a difference, but i'll surely give it a shot, thx bro!




> u could use a z track method, or put a small air bubble behind the oil to push it in further.


Not familiar with the z track method, i'll google it. Re: leaving an air bubble - funny you mention it. My doc suggested it and I just blew it off. I couldn't see how air on top of liquid in a hole would make a difference, but obviously my doc isn't the only one who thought of this. I usually try to get every last bit of air out. 




> If you're having a lot of leakage(that sounds funny) , I would slow the injection down even more and, as already mentioned, don't pull the needle out right away.


Lmao, yes it does. Thanks again for the tips Tenn et al., I'll let you know how I make out.

----------


## joebailey1271

yea, i think they use the z track for iron type meds so they dont seep out causing a stain from the skin, anyways im sure u couldf use it for the others meds too

----------


## joebailey1271

Z-track injections 
Any time you have to give an intramuscular (I.M.) injection, 
you should use the Z-track method. Why? Its pretty simple: 
The Z-track is a better injection technique. Its been shown to 
reduce leakage of medication through subcutaneous tissue and 
decrease skin lesions at the injection site. Plus, it doesnt hurt 
patients quite as much as a regular I.M. injection. 
When using the Z-track method, you displace the tissue before 
you insert the needle. Once the needles withdrawn, the tissues 
restored to its normal position. this traps the drug inside the 
muscle and prevents any leakage. The benefit: The patient gets 
the full dose of medication. 
How to do it 
Follow these steps when administering a drug I.M. using the 
Z-track method: 
→ Verify the drug order on the patients chart. 
→ Wash your hands. 
→ Reconstitute the drug as needed. Check the drugs color, 
clarity, and expiration date. 
→ Draw the correct amount of drug into the syringe using 
aseptic technique. 
→ After drawing up the dose, replace the original needle with a

----------


## Juced_porkchop

> My first post in the HRT forum... /wave 
> 
> I am in the process of making an appt. with an endo - I have a script from my PC to do so. My questions is - if prescribed HRT, is it standard practice to allow one to self administer? If not standard, is it 'allowed' or acceptable in some cases? This office isn't particularly close to my home, and I'd never be able to make it there once a week during their business hours, let along twice a week which would be my ideal dosage timing.


He may push to have you come in, but yes you should be able to request to do it at home. tell him you know what you are doing and not able to come in often due to work and the places location.

----------


## gbrice75

> yea, i think they use the z track for iron type meds so they dont seep out causing a stain from the skin, anyways im sure u couldf use it for the others meds too





> Z-track injections 
> Any time you have to give an intramuscular (I.M.) injection, 
> you should use the Z-track method. Why? It’s pretty simple: 
> The Z-track is a better injection technique. It’s been shown to 
> reduce leakage of medication through subcutaneous tissue and 
> decrease skin lesions at the injection site. Plus, it doesn’t hurt 
> patients quite as much as a regular I.M. injection. 
> When using the Z-track method, you displace the tissue before 
> you insert the needle. Once the needle’s withdrawn, the tissue’s 
> ...


Thanks guys!!!  :Smilie: 




> He may push to have you come in, but yes you should be able to request to do it at home. tell him you know what you are doing and not able to come in often due to work and the places location.


JP - thanks bro, but really? We're WAY beyond this already, lol

----------


## MickeyKnox

> He may push to have you come in, but yes you should be able to request to do it at home. tell him you know what you are doing and not able to come in often due to work and the places location.


Welcome to page 1. 

Population..you.  :LOL:

----------


## TennTarheel

> Welcome to page 1.
> 
> Population..you.


Lol, priceless...

----------


## Mrbill

Been lurking and reading from the beginning, Great info on your journey GB. 
I'm also thankful your so open on this, It makes me feel better now that I'm gonna go through the same thing.
My Blood test is tomorrow. Reading everything I can get my eyes on.

Waiting on what comes next, for all of us.

P.S. How to get what you want from your MD
by Cy Willson was a great read.

----------


## gbrice75

> Welcome to page 1. 
> 
> Population..you.


Bahahah  :LOL: 




> Been lurking and reading from the beginning, Great info on your journey GB. 
> I'm also thankful your so open on this, It makes me feel better now that I'm gonna go through the same thing.
> My Blood test is tomorrow. Reading everything I can get my eyes on.
> 
> Waiting on what comes next, for all of us.
> 
> P.S. How to get what you want from your MD
> by Cy Willson was a great read.


Thanks for the kind words man, good luck to you and be sure to keep us posted with your progress. If you haven't already started a thread, you should!  :Smilie:

----------


## gbrice75

New lab results!!! Here goes:

*CBC*
WBC - 9.9 x10E3/uL (4.0 - 10.5)
RBC - 5.72 x10E6/uL (4.14 - 5.80)
Hemoglobin - 17.2 g/dL (12.6 - 17.7)
Hematocrit - 50.2% (37.5 - 51)

Many more results under CBC. Let me know anything else you'd like to see.

*Comprehensive Metabolic Panel*
Glucose, Serum - 91 mg/dL (65-99)
BUN - 30 mg/dL *(FLAGGED AS HIGH)* - (6-20)
Creatinine, Serum - 1.11 mg/dL (0.76-1.27)
BUN/Creatinine Ratio - 27 *(FLAGGED AS HIGH)* (8-19)

Again, many more results for Comp Metabolic Panel. Let me know what else you'd like to see, if anything

*Lipid Panel*
Cholesterol, Total - 151 mg/dL (100-199)
Triglycerides - 87 mg/dL (0-149)
HDL Cholesterol - 45 mg/dL (>39)
VLDL Cholesterol Cal - 17 mg/dL (5-40)
LDL Cholesterol Calc - 89 mg/dL (0-99)

*Testosterone, Free and Total*
Testosterone , Serum - 831 ng/dL (384-1197) *DOWN FROM LAST LABS*
Free Testosterone (Direct) - 28.9 pg/mL *(FLAGGED AS HIGH)*  (8.7-25.1)

*T4 and TSH*
TSH - 3.600 uIU/mL (0.450-4.500)

*Thyroxine (T4) Free, DIrect, S*
T4, Free (Direct) - 1.01 ng/dL (4.5-12.0)

*Cortisol -* 4.8 ug/dL (2.3-19.4)

*DHEA, Serum*
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) - 90 ng/dL (31-701)

*Prolactin -*  17.0 ng/mL *(FLAGGED AS HIGH!!!)* (4.0-15.2)

*Estradiol (sensitive)* - 28.5 pg/mL (7.6-42.6) *(VERY HAPPY WITH THIS... still not using any AI!!)*

*Triiodothyronine (T3) -*  126 ng/dL (71-180)

Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum - 3.3 pg/mL (2.0-4.4)

SHBG, Serum - 33.9 nmol/L (16.5 - 55.9) *(STILL WOULD LIKE TO BRING THIS UP)*

So, what do you think? Total test is down for some reason - haven't changed dosage at all. Last labs, it was high, a bit over the reference range. Now it's lower, but free test is high - this is a good thing, right? Isn't this the goal?

E2 is still looking very good even without the use of an AI so far. Good stuff!!

The high prolactin bothers me. Why? I haven't touched any kind of 19nor ... don't understand the relation of test and prolactin. I need to bring this down... caber? 

Let me know what else you see, would appreciate any and all feedback.

----------


## --->>405<<---

hey GB im no expert but my bun creatinine and bun is also high. usually when im eating a lot of protein. i think thats why anyways LOL.. when i come off cycling carbs it goes back down.

as far as ur DHEA i suggest u go to lefdotcom its where i get mine. got the site from GD. my dhea on the otc cvs crap was where urs is on 100mg per day. now im using theirs (micronized) at 50mg per day and its in the 400's. id also like to note this will prob increase ur free and total test as it did mine (or at least i think it is part to blame)..  :Smilie:  good to see u!

id also like to note i will prob switch all my supplements to that site! their stuff is quality and i really see how the cvs otc crap is just that! CRAP!

----------


## gbrice75

> hey GB im no expert but my bun creatinine and bun is also high. usually when im eating a lot of protein. i think thats why anyways LOL.. when i come off cycling carbs it goes back down.
> 
> as far as ur DHEA i suggest u go to lefdotcom its where i get mine. got the site from GD. my dhea on the otc cvs crap was where urs is on 100mg per day. now im using theirs (micronized) at 50mg per day and its in the 400's. id also like to note this will prob increase ur free and total test as it did mine (or at least i think it is part to blame)..  good to see u!
> 
> id also like to note i will prob switch all my supplements to that site! their stuff is quality and i really see how the cvs otc crap is just that! CRAP!


Thanks man. I don't buy my DHEA and/or Preg from CVS or the like, I get them online - the manufacturer is MRM. Both are micronized, but i'm not sure how great the quality is. I'll check out the site you and GD are going with, thx.

----------


## --->>405<<---

> Thanks man. I don't buy my DHEA and/or Preg from CVS or the like, I get them online - the manufacturer is MRM. Both are micronized, but i'm not sure how great the quality is. I'll check out the site you and GD are going with, thx.


ur welcome! based on blood work (and prob a bunch of more complicated things i dont understand  :Wink: ) it would appear the stuff ur getting isnt working. dont know how much ur taking? i take 50mg per day and stay in the 400's. be sure not to get the stuff u have to suck on cuz it doesnt taste good and is a pain in the butt! i made the mistake of not reading thoroughly enuff when i refilled my last bottle! i prefer the capsules.

and i get preg also from the same site.

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## gbrice75

> ur welcome! based on blood work (and prob a bunch of more complicated things i dont understand ) it would appear the stuff ur getting isnt working. dont know how much ur taking? i take 50mg per day and stay in the 400's. be sure not to get the stuff u have to suck on cuz it doesnt taste good and is a pain in the butt! i made the mistake of not reading thoroughly enuff when i refilled my last bottle! i prefer the capsules.
> 
> and i get preg also from the same site.


Same... 50mg/day each of DHEA and Preg. Yes, I'd definitely like DHEA to be higher... I actually need to refill soon so i'll definitely check out that site!

BUMP for feedback on labs! Where's Vette? GD? Mickey? HRT? Kel? Bass?

----------


## bass

hey GB, your SHBG is fine where its at, i wish mine was like that! your e2 is not a sensitive assay BTW, so who knows where you're really at! i am dropping the AI as mine came back at 12 range is 3-70 from Lab Corp. prolactin got to come down, thats probably attributed to high e2, i bet if sensitive assay was done it wold show higher than desired.

your TSH is high which indicated under active thyroid, mine was like that until i supplemented with iodine, basically rubbed few drops on my skin (thigh) every day and TSH came down under 2 and stayed down even with no iodine. i wouldn't worry too much about your total T, this can fluctuate from test to test, but your free is solid!

i get DHEA from LEF and its very potent, as you can see on my test i am way above normal, so cutting back on that. your cholesterol look okay, but supplement with omega 3 to improve your HDL a little. looks like its time to donate blood. how about ALT AST (liver enzymes)?

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## gbrice75

> hey GB, your SHBG is fine where its at, i wish mine was like that! your e2 is not a sensitive assay BTW, so who knows where you're really at!


Man, that pisses me off. Twice now I've asked for E2 test w/ sensitive assay, and apparently haven't gotten it. I don't know what else to ask them to make sure they get this right. 




> i am dropping the AI as mine came back at 12 range is 3-70 from Lab Corp.


Great! IMO, the fewer drugs needed, the better!  :Smilie: 




> prolactin got to come down, thats probably attributed to high e2, i bet if sensitive assay was done it wold show higher than desired.


I don't quite understand the whole sensitive assay concept. For the standard test, you're given a range. My number is somewhere right in the middle which I assume is good, or at least acceptable. I don't understand what changes with the sensitive assay... i.e. does the range change?




> your TSH is high which indicated under active thyroid, mine was like that until i supplemented with iodine, basically rubbed few drops on my skin (thigh) every day and TSH came down under 2 and stayed down even with no iodine.


Iodine... really?? Sounds easy enough, but I've never heard of this. This begs the question - why do expensive drugs exist to help with hypothyroidism if simple iodine can solve the problem...??




> i wouldn't worry too much about your total T, this can fluctuate from test to test, but your free is solid!


Yep, i'm actually happy the total came down quite a bit, while the free either stayed the same or increased (I have to go back a few pages and check the lab before this one).




> i get DHEA from LEF and its very potent, as you can see on my test i am way above normal, so cutting back on that.


I need to order more DHEA as well as Preg today. I'll very likely be ordering from LEF.




> your cholesterol look okay, but supplement with omega 3 to improve your HDL a little.


Already do, but can certainly use more...  :Smilie: 




> looks like its time to donate blood.


Ugh!! Annoyance. I assume this requires a script?




> how about ALT AST (liver enzymes)?


AST (SGOT) - 36 IU/L (0-40)
ALT (SGPT) - 32 IU/L (0-44)

Hope that helps. Thank you for all your feedback!!!

I'm still very concerned about the elevated prolactin... looking for an immediate remedy to bring it down. Should I get my hands on some Caber or Prami? In the meantime, where are the rest of the regulars!!? I'm gonna have to start hounding people via PM, lol

----------


## bass

You don't need script for donating blood, do some search here for donating blood so you get an idea how to answer the questions and not get rejected.

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## kelkel

GB. Good answers above.

1. Time to get in the routine of giving blood
2. DHEA aspect covered
3. BUN/Creatinine. What did your doc say? Can be muscle breakdown and amino's or even dehydration. Not necessarily kidney issues.
4. T levels are great. Be happy.
5. Prolactin is interesting. How's your libido? Have you ever had an MRI? Did your doc speak about this at all? Stress can raise or if your woman has a fetish for your nips that can raise it as well. Stop playing with them if you are! But, your cortisol level was good if I recall correctly. Caber will bring it down but i'd still want to know why it's up. If you go the caber route I'd suggest no more than .25 x 2 per week as that will stomp it down. There could also other medicine causing this response. I just don't know. If it stays elevated I'd obtain an MRI. It's basically a protein or amino acid strand.
6. SHBG is just fine.

kel

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## gbrice75

> GB. Good answers above.
> 
> 1. Time to get in the routine of giving blood


Meh. lol  :Smilie: 




> 3. BUN/Creatinine. What did you doc say? Can be muscle breakdown and amino's or even dehydration. Not necessarily kidney issues.


Haven't actually had my follow up with the doc on these latest labs yet. I just stopped by the office to pick up a copy so I could post it up here ASAP for all of your collective feedback. I sure as fck hope it's not muscle breakdown though!!! Well... actually I DO hope it's muscle breakdown - through training, as long as i'm rebuilding.




> 4. T levels are great. Be happy.


Very!





> 5. Prolactin is interesting. How's your libido?


Great question. Since starting TRT, it's been higher. However as of late, it's fallen off again... coinciding with elevated prolactin. Prolactin was fine on my previous lab... as was libido. 




> Have you ever had an MRI?


Nope




> Did your doc speak about this at all?


Not yet - as stated, I haven't met with him yet on these latest labs. Will schedule an appt. ASAP though.




> Stress can raise or if your woman has a fetish for your nips that can raise it as well. Stop playing with them if you are!


Lmfao!!! Well I have been under quite a bit of stress lately... can stress really raise it that high!? I'll have to stop playing with my nips to relieve stress, lol!




> Caber will bring it down but i'd still want to know why it's up.


ME TOO!!!




> If you go the caber route I'd suggest no more than .25 x 2 per week as that will stomp it down. There could also other medicine causing this response. I just don't know. If it stays elevated I'd obtain an MRI. It's basically a protein or amino acid strand.


Thanks for the input. MRI sounds scary... but may be necessary. I'm not taking ANY medications - only test, HCG , and supplements (DHEA, preg, stinging nettles, creatine, vitamins, digestive enzymes, etc).




> 6. SHBG is just fine.


Glad to hear that!!! Thanks again for your input Kel, much appreciated. Looks like I have some items to address with the doc, particularly prolactin.

----------


## kelkel

I'm referring to normal breakdown as a result of working out! Not you falling apart!
Also, without going back a page your cortisol is good I believe possibly ruling out stress.
Don't know if stress can elevate it that high. hence the mri statement. MRI's are cake. No issues doing it.
Give the wife her tassles back.

----------


## gbrice75

> I'm referring to normal breakdown as a result of working out! Not you falling apart!
> Also, without going back a page your cortisol is good I believe possibly ruling out stress.
> Don't know if stress can elevate it that high. hence the mri statement. MRI's are cake. No issues doing it.
> Give the wife her tassles back.


lol, thanks for the reassurance Kel! I'll definitely look into having the MRI done. Since I never have, and approaching 40, it certainly can't hurt.

----------


## bass

hey GB, here is a good place to learn about thyroid,

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

----------


## MickeyKnox

Hey Brice!

Im learning along with you bro! Your bloods look pretty good (test is great!), but as the Vets have indicated, a couple that raised eyebrows - re: Prolactin

Wish i could provide more help, other than encourage and support you through this.  :Frown:

----------


## Vettester

G, sorry for limping in on this so late. New business has a lot of my attention these days, but hoping to get back into the groove here a little more over the holidays.

With that said, Bass and Kel covered just about everything that needs addressed. I agree with the MRI option. The TSH score by itself might not flag me, but when I see the prolactin and TSH where they're at, it IMO warrants further investigation to rule out any existing pituitary conditions that you might not be aware of. Another lab that could be thrown in the mix with this is your ACTH lab. IMO, your cortisol level is leaning on the low end, which in theory could mean that your ACTH is on the elevated side. If so, that would just be another reason for your physician to look further into the reason(s) for the anterior lobe pituitary hyperactivity.

On the DHEA, look into the micronized form, or better yet, I always suggest the topical creams if your doctor/clinic offers them.

G, definitely read that link that Bass posted on Stop the Thyroid Madness. It will open your eyes to a lot of variables associated with the thyroid and panels thereof. I strongly recommend everyone also pays attention to the iron and ferritin labs, as many people (like myself) are carriers for hemochromatosis and don't even know it. I have hypothryroidism, and obviously I am hypogonadal, which was diagnosed at/around 40yo. Why? Not sure, but I suspect the hemochromatosis genetic issue played a part. If it's a factor, it can easily be managed by donating blood every couple of months.

----------


## gbrice75

> hey GB, here is a good place to learn about thyroid,
> 
> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/


Thanks brother!!




> Hey Brice!
> 
> Im learning along with you bro! Your bloods look pretty good (test is great!), but as the Vets have indicated, a couple that raised eyebrows - re: Prolactin
> 
> Wish i could provide more help, other than encourage and support you through this.


Hey, i'll take all the encouragement and support I can get. Thx MK!!  :Wink: 




> G, sorry for limping in on this so late. New business has a lot of my attention these days, but hoping to get back into the groove here a little more over the holidays.


No worries man. Life has to come first. I'm not around the board nearly as much these days as I used to be either. Priorities have to take priority.  :Smilie: 




> With that said, Bass and Kel covered just about everything that needs addressed. I agree with the MRI option. The TSH score by itself might not flag me, but when I see the prolactin and TSH where they're at, it IMO warrants further investigation to rule out any existing pituitary conditions that you might not be aware of. Another lab that could be thrown in the mix with this is your ACTH lab. IMO, your cortisol level is leaning on the low end, which in theory could mean that your ACTH is on the elevated side. If so, that would just be another reason for your physician to look further into the reason(s) for the anterior lobe pituitary hyperactivity.


Not familiar with ACTH, but I'll be researching it now that you've brought it up. I will definitely talk to my doc about the MRI option, and if he feels it's unwarranted, i'll bring it to my primary care doc for a 2nd opinion. Still on the hunt for a proper endo and/or urologist.




> On the DHEA, look into the micronized form, or better yet, I always suggest the topical creams if your doctor/clinic offers them.


My current DHEA (and Preg) is micronized, from MRM - but idk how 'potent' it is. No problem trying a product from a different (vouched for) company. Not sure if I wanna rub DHEA cream on me then play with my 14 month old though!  :Wink/Grin: 




> G, definitely read that link that Bass posted on Stop the Thyroid Madness. It will open your eyes to a lot of variables associated with the thyroid and panels thereof. I strongly recommend everyone also pays attention to the iron and ferritin labs, as many people (like myself) are carriers for hemochromatosis and don't even know it. I have hypothryroidism, and obviously I am hypogonadal, which was diagnosed at/around 40yo. Why? Not sure, but I suspect the hemochromatosis genetic issue played a part. If it's a factor, it can easily be managed by donating blood every couple of months.


Thanks for your input Vette. Re: prolactin being high - this isn't the first time it's come back as high on a lab. I am starting to wonder if elevated prolactin is actually what's responsible for my low T to begin with. I've been reading up on it and low T is one of the symptoms of elevated prolactin in men. It's now a matter of finding out WHY it's elevated. Who knows, if we can nip that problem in the bud (and assuming it is in fact responsible for my low T), I may be able to get off TRT and be 'normal'!  :Smilie:  Interestingly enough, I have no nipple soreness/tenderness etc. often associated with elevated prolactin. *shrug*

----------


## bass

you know this is a great thread for all beginners to read, it is complete and very educational!

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## gbrice75

> you know this is a great thread for all beginners to read, it is complete and very educational!


Agreed! Tis' the reason that I post whore new posts only to link back to this thread when I update it!  :Wink/Grin:

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## gbrice75

Just got my DHEA from LEF, Preg is on backorder. Are you guys sure their stuff is micronized? Doesn't seem to indicate that anywhere on the bottle, whereas the stuff from the last manufacturer (MRM) did. Just curious.

----------


## gbrice75

Bump!!

So I'm meeting with a new/different doctor this Friday. This one's an endo, so i'm hoping that he knows a bit more than the doc who i'm currently seeing (he's a DO). What I DO need to be certain of is that he'll continue my current protocol, i.e. test injections (vs. transdermals, etc), HCG , and Adex. I'll be bringing my most recent labs (posted here previously) for review. 

Off topic for a minute - my current doc always wants me to schedule my appts. with him prior to injection day. Seeing as cypionate is a long acting ester, i'm curious as to why it would matter? Would there really be any appreciable difference in labs if I were to go right before vs. right after an injection?  :Hmmmm:

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## MickeyKnox

Hey GB, i hope there light at the end of the tunnel with your new Doc! 

Re: Appts. - Does this have anything to do with bloods? Trough? Im not i sure i understand the reasoning either.

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## gbrice75

> Hey GB, i hope there light at the end of the tunnel with your new Doc!
> 
> Re: Appts. - Does this have anything to do with bloods? Trough? Im not i sure i understand the reasoning either.


Thank MK. Hoping others will chime in re: injection time and how it relates (or doesn't) to when blood is drawn for labs.

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## kelkel

Most doc's are hooked on trough levels which is why they want BW prior to injection. An astute doc would be able to interpret your results no matter when your injection/BW was done. If you pulled blood 2-3 days after injection you'd be at peak levels which may actually scare your doc into lowering you dosage. 

You doing once a week or twice GB?

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## gbrice75

> Most doc's are hooked on trough levels which is why they want BW prior to injection. An astute doc would be able to interpret your results no matter when your injection/BW was done. If you pulled blood 2-3 days after injection you'd be at peak levels which may actually scare your doc into lowering you dosage.
> 
> You doing once a week or twice GB?


This current doc isn't too astute with regards to TRT. I'm doing twice a week, every 3.5 days.

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## kelkel

So your never really off peak!

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## gbrice75

> So your never really off peak!


Guess not lol. Not a bad thing, right!?

----------


## kelkel

That would be my goal as well.

A goal is S-M-A-R-T: Specific-Measurable-Attainable-Realistic-Time Framed!

----------


## gbrice75

> That would be my goal as well.
> 
> A goal is S-M-A-R-T: Specific-Measurable-Attainable-Realistic-Time Framed!


Guess i'm on the right track then!? 

I'll update with how it goes with the new doc tomorrow.

----------


## gbrice75

So I had my appt. with an endo. I'M SOO disappointed!! It went horribly. First, the guy had such a thick accent I had to ask him to repeat himself several times. Second, he was another 'old timer' and clearly wasn't even aware of current TRT protocols. 

The positives: As an endo, he was more interested in getting to the root cause of my low T (i.e. primary/secondary hypogonadal, etc) versus simply treating it. Basically he wanted to find out whether the problem was with my testicles, or pituitary, and then come up with a plan from there. My current doc (not an endo) failed to do this. My 'diagnosis' was simply 'low T'. 

The negatives: He was completely thrown off by my current protocol. He said that 'we' (endo's) don't do this (my protocol) at all. He wasn't keen on injections, stating that they cause too many 'peaks and dips' in blood levels. Despite me explaining I inject every 3.5 days to offset this, he proceeded to tell me that injections should ideally be done once every 2 weeks. I was ready to walk out at that point. 

He then told me that my HCG protocol was a joke. Honestly, I don't even think he understood why I was using it (to maintain testicular normality, fertility, etc). He told me I was trying to put out a fire by spitting on it. 

Ultimately, he wants me to come off TRT for a few weeks, then go for blood work. He wants to see how low/high my T is naturally, basically starting over. Depending on what he sees, he might have me get an MRI. I'm definitely not opposed to that considering my recent (and seemingly ongoing) elevated prolactin. He'd ultimately like to see if he can keep me off TRT and get things working efficiently enough on their own. I don't want to do this for obvious reasons... I don't want to feel like crap for weeks on end, etc. Having said that, if my body can work efficiently enough to get off TRT, i'd LOVE that option. It's a pain in the ass (NO, not a pun - I pin my quads exclusively!) between injections, Dr visits, labs, blood donating, etc. For life. I'm 37. Life is (hopefully) a long time!

So here I am again, at a crossroad. I'm definitely not going back to this guy, but now I'm left a bit paranoid about what I'm potentially doing to my body (HPTA specifically) where the problem may not be too severe to begin with. I just don't know anymore. I've pretty much exhausted endo's in my area. My last shot is to find a urologist with a clue. Ugh!

----------


## Vettester

Oh my!! Sounds like you crossed paths with a real quack!! The best thing you stated out of that whole post was, "I'm definitely not going back to this guy". That's the best move you could do.

As I see it, you're on TRT because your HPTA probably isn't functioning properly already, and/or your testicles (primary) were not functioning and producing testosterone efficiently. However, if the HCG was working, then it's pretty safe to say you had a secondary condition you first started. At this stage, if you run all the labs, your HPTA is going to show suppression regardless if you were primary or secondary. 

Presuming you were put on TRT due to low T to begin with. It might not hurt to get an MRI since nobody ever ruled out a tumor, or even confirmed your diagnosis, but if the worse thing is that you need TRT for life, then there's no harm with just replenishing your body with a balanced amount of testosterone, which you would be naturally producing if everything worked accordingly. 

And the comment your endo made about HCG (spitting on a fire), just shows what his value is. He is worthless, plain and simple! I don't have a problem that some of these guys don't like injection steroids and other compounds to treat men, that's their prerogative. However, the issue is that they just make up propaganda without any facts. E.g., your endo stating that "ideally" injections should be done every 2 weeks. Here he is lecturing you about peaks and valleys, yet he knows nothing about half-life and what 14 days will do to a patient. In response, dealing with endos like this one is more like throwing grease into the fire. He (and others like him) are more detrimental to a patient than anything else! It's sad to know that we have new members on this forum with less than a week of educating, who basically know more about HRT than a doctor with a lifetime of experience.

----------


## gbrice75

> Oh my!! Sounds like you crossed paths with a real quack!! The best thing you stated out of that whole post was, "I'm definitely not going back to this guy". That's the best move you could do.


Thanks for the reassurance!  :Wink: 




> As I see it, you're on TRT because your HPTA probably isn't functioning properly already, and/or your testicles (primary) were not functioning and producing testosterone efficiently. However, if the HCG was working, then it's pretty safe to say you had a secondary condition you first started. At this stage, if you run all the labs, your HPTA is going to show suppression regardless if you were primary or secondary.


When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count. 

What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance? 




> Presuming you were put on TRT due to low T to begin with. It might not hurt to get an MRI since nobody ever ruled out a tumor, or even confirmed your diagnosis, but if the worse thing is that you need TRT for life, then there's no harm with just replenishing your body with a balanced amount of testosterone, which you would be naturally producing if everything worked accordingly.


I just get freaked out once in a while... like... what might be the long term effects of total HPTA suppression... what might be the long term effects of producing absolutely no FSH or LH, etc. 




> And the comment your endo made about HCG (spitting on a fire), just shows what his value is. He is worthless, plain and simple! I don't have a problem that some of these guys don't like injection steroids and other compounds to treat men, that's their prerogative. However, the issue is that they just make up propaganda without any facts. E.g., your endo stating that "ideally" injections should be done every 2 weeks. Here he is lecturing you about peaks and valleys, yet he knows nothing about half-life and what 14 days will do to a patient. In response, dealing with endos like this one is more like throwing grease into the fire. He (and others like him) are more detrimental to a patient than anything else! It's sad to know that we have new members on this forum with less than a week of educating, who basically know more about HRT than a doctor with a lifetime of experience.


Well said brother. Don't get me wrong - I am EXTREMELY glad to have guys like you, Kel, GD, etc. available for consultation like this. But it is a shame that I/we have to go to the doc first and THEN come to a steroid board to get the real scoop from relative strangers. 

For now... fingers crossed for the semen analysis results. If sperm count is low and/or motility abnormal (both were in a healthy range when I last had a test done about 2 years ago), I'll have no choice but to come off TRT, run an aggressive PCT and try to get the boys up to par as my wife and I would like to have another baby ASAP!

----------


## Vettester

> Thanks for the reassurance! 
> 
> 
> 
> When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count. *In my case, I definitely noticed a difference when I started taking HCG. Not only did my testicles increase in size, but the ejaculation volume went through the ceiling (literally). My left testicle is super sensitive to being suppressed, and it will act up if I miss a shot of HCG, or if my HCG starts to lose it's potency (seen that start at/around 48 to 50 days). Everyone is different, but if HCG is effective, you should notice some improvements, as listed above, or you should notice it going the other way if you stop taking HCG*
> 
> What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance? *Secondary can occur due to many reasons (tumors, substance use, thyroid conditions, etc), including no reason at all, but just getting older. The getting older part is also known as Andropause; basically mimicking a similar process that women see with menopause. It's just nature's way of telling us that we have passed our peak years for procreation, and we are no longer the competitive young guys trying to make a name in the tribe. YES, primary would indicate a problem with the testicles, leydig cell issues, tumors, other pathologies ... We normally see members having elevated LH/FSH levels and low test serum when there's a testicular (primary) condition.* 
> 
> 
> ...


GB, responses in *bolds*

----------


## gbrice75

> GB, responses in *bolds*


Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel. 

I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?

----------


## FONZY007

> Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?


GB I came off trt and had a babygirl successfully.. I did a pct with clomid and HCG, before I was out of the PCT she was pregnant!! I waited till she was past her first trimester and jumped back on my trt

----------


## gbrice75

> GB I came off trt and had a babygirl successfully.. I did a pct with clomid and HCG, before I was out of the PCT she was pregnant!! I waited till she was past her first trimester and jumped back on my trt


Very nice bro, congrats! Did you come off because you were unsuccessful conceiving for some time while on, or did you just come off in an effort to better your chances right off the bat? If the former, how long did you try before coming off?

----------


## kelkel

Just getting caught up on your thread GB. Damn, another wack job doc who doesn't understand hormones and expects to be able to blow smoke up the patients ars. Reminds me of my endo, Clueless and subsequently fired!

Great advice from Vette!

----------


## FONZY007

> Very nice bro, congrats! Did you come off because you were unsuccessful conceiving for some time while on, or did you just come off in an effort to better your chances right off the bat? If the former, how long did you try before coming off?


Sorry didn't know you responded, just got off right off the bat.. And like less than 2 months she was pregnant

----------


## gbrice75

> Just getting caught up on your thread GB. Damn, another wack job doc who doesn't understand hormones and expects to be able to blow smoke up the patients ars. Reminds me of my endo, Clueless and subsequently fired!
> 
> Great advice from Vette!


Agreed Kel. And so the search continues...




> Sorry didn't know you responded, just got off right off the bat.. And like less than 2 months she was pregnant


Awesome!! Did you say you we're using clomid? At what dosage? Anything else?

----------


## FONZY007

> Agreed Kel. And so the search continues...
> 
> Awesome!! Did you say you we're using clomid? At what dosage? Anything else?


Yea clomid at 50mgs and nolvedex at 40mgs

----------


## gbrice75

> Yea clomid at 50mgs and nolvedex at 40mgs


Good to know bro!!  :Smilie:

----------


## gbrice75

New labs!!

Giving everything I believe is important - as always, let me know if there's anything not listed that you'd like to see:

WBC - 8.6 x10E3/uL (4.0-10.5)
*RBC - 5.81 x10E6/uL (4.14-5.80)* HIGH
Hemoglobin - 17.6 g/dL (12.6-17.7)
Hematocrit - 49.9 % (37.5-51.0)

*BUN - 23 mg/dL (6-20)* HIGH - is this a concern??

*Testosterone, Serum - 1251 ng/dL (348-1197)*  HIGH
*Free Testosterone (Direct) 39.3 pg/mL (8.7-25.1)*  HIGH

T4, Free (direct) 1.13 ng/dL (0.82-1.77)

Cortisol - 4.3 ug/dL (2.3-19.4) I know elevated cortisol is no good, but isn't this a bit TOO low??

DHEA, Serum - 82 ng/dL (31-701) This pisses me off as I've been supplementing DHEA (50mg/day) for months now and it never seems to rise. WTF!!

TSH - 3.050 uIU/mL (0.450-4.500)

*Prolactin - 15.9 ng/mL (4.0-15.2)* HIGH - again, pisses me off because I don't know why. Been supp'ing B6 (actually B Complex but plenty of 6) to try and bring this down. 

Estradiol - 28.9 pg/mL (7.6-42.6)

Vitamin D, 24-Hydroxy 60.5 ng/mL (30.0-100.0)

Thyroxine (T4) 6.9 ug/dL (4.5-12.0)

Triiodothyronine (T3) 119 ng/dL (71-180)

Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum 3.2 pg/mL (2.0-4.4)

SHGB, Serum 33.9 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

Please let me know what you think guys. This is my 2nd lab where prolactin is elevated and I have NO IDEA why that would be. E2 looks good... should I look into getting an MRI at this point? Does anybody know the general cost for one? I have an odd insurance plan and need to do my due diligence with this stuff.

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## gbrice75

Bump! C'mon fellas. Help ol' GB out here... u know this isn't my comfort zone!

----------


## Vettester

G, it's normal for the RBC's to be on the climb with TRT. Just get into the mode of donating blood every couple of months. That will keep you in check.

Don't sweat too much on the BUN test. It can be related to hydration, protein, workout related ... At 23mg, I wouldn't get too excited.

Your testosterone is up probably due to your protocol. When did you take labs in relation to your injection? Your free test is in suit with your total test, sitting at the 3.1%. That tells me your SHBG is probably relatively low. Nothing wrong with that, as mine and others is low. I think you started on Vitamin D as well, which will help lower SHBG, thus increasing your free testosterone. 2% to 3% IMO is where most guys should be, and if you're a little over then so be it. Mine has been around 3.3% on the last few. So, essentially, you don't really need as much medication as the guy with 2% free testosterone to achieve comparable results.

Have you taken any of the Nor 19 compounds lately? (Deca , tren )? They will obviously contribute to an increase of prolactin. Have you administered any dopamine agonist medications in the past, e.g., caber, prami, for managing the prolactin. I'd never say no to a good MRI. If you haven't had one, then it won't hurt to have a physician review it with you.

----------


## gbrice75

> G, it's normal for the RBC's to be on the climb with TRT. Just get into the mode of donating blood every couple of months. That will keep you in check.


I remember somebody recently mentioned an article or sticky or something, re: donating blood and how to answer the questions so there are no issues. Do you know what i'm referring to? If so, can you point me to it? 




> Don't sweat too much on the BUN test. It can be related to hydration, protein, workout related ... At 23mg, I wouldn't get too excited.


Good deal. Probably hydration... or lack thereof. I admittedly NEVER drink enough water... one of my biggest issues. 




> Your testosterone is up probably due to your protocol. When did you take labs in relation to your injection? Your free test is in suit with your total test, sitting at the 3.1%. That tells me your SHBG is probably relatively low. Nothing wrong with that, as mine and others is low. I think you started on Vitamin D as well, which will help lower SHBG, thus increasing your free testosterone. 2% to 3% IMO is where most guys should be, and if you're a little over then so be it. Mine has been around 3.3% on the last few. So, essentially, you don't really need as much medication as the guy with 2% free testosterone to achieve comparable results.


I'm really happy with the free... I could do with the total being lower, but like you said, lowering my dosage should help with that. Blood was drawn for this lab around 4pm on a Friday - my last shot prior to that was about 6pm Wednesday, so roughly 48 hours between. 

Yes, I've been supplementing D3 to lower SHBG (it was at the high end of the range when I started TRT, so i'm really happy with it right now)... stinging nettles as well although I recently ran out. 




> Have you taken any of the Nor 19 compounds lately? (Deca, tren)? They will obviously contribute to an increase of prolactin. Have you administered any dopamine agonist medications in the past, e.g., caber, prami, for managing the prolactin. I'd never say no to a good MRI. If you haven't had one, then it won't hurt to have a physician review it with you.


Nope, no 19 Nor compounds whatsoever. Nothing except my TRT protocol. I'm definitely going to make an appt. with my PC and talk about an MRI. The problem is he admittedly doesn't understand the endocrine system and is going to refer me to an endo... which I've had zero success finding a good one as of yet. AHHHH!!!

Thanks for your feedback as always Vette.  :Smilie:

----------


## gbrice75

Update - appt. to give blood this Sunday!! Also started adex to see if that brings down prolactin (indirectly) levels. Next labs will tell. .25mg every 3.5 days, so very little to start.

----------


## kelkel

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9619713

Personally I don't think you'll get much out of adex for prolactin control, even though estrogen and prolactin basically oppose each other. Meaning when one elevates the other suppresses. Minimal at best IMHO.

Why not go straight to caber instead of the end run above. Caber a .25 twice per week will crush your prolactin level.

Refresh me. Are you on thyroid meds?

----------


## gbrice75

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9619713
> 
> Personally I don't think you'll get much out of adex for prolactin control, even though estrogen and prolactin basically oppose each other. Meaning when one elevates the other suppresses. Minimal at best IMHO.


Interesting... I've read the exact opposite - that elevated E2 can lead to 'prog like' sides, including elevated prolactin. I've never heard that they oppose each other. Not debating you, just stating that. Very interesting... and disheartening. I thought that lowering E2 may in turn lower PRL... this study points out the exact opposite - or no change at all, best case scenario. 




> Why not go straight to caber instead of the end run above. Caber a .25 twice per week will crush your prolactin level.
> 
> Refresh me. Are you on thyroid meds?


No thyroid meds at all. Re: not running caber - it's not that i'm opposed to it specifically, but I was hoping to deal with these issues with as few drugs as possible, and since I probably need low dose AI anyway, I thought I'd kill 2 birds...

----------


## gbrice75

It's been a while, I figured I'd update everybody as to the latest.

A lot has gone on since I last logged. I was able to get my PCP to agree to take over my TRT care and continue with my existing protocol. This is wonderful news for me for many reasons:

1 - he's in my healthcare network. The doc I was seeing wasn't, and I had to pay out of pocket for office visits

2 - he writes me scripts for labs and I just go to Labcorp at my convenience. The last doc drew blood at his office then sent it out. That meant double the number of office visits ($$ and inconvenience) - 1 just to draw blood, and a follow up to review results. 

3 - he's in my hometown. I can schedule appts. right after work as his office is on my way home. The last doc was in the same town I work in, and I had to schedule appts during work time. When appts would run late (as they always do), I'd wind up with anxiety worrying about work, etc. 

4 - before I started TRT, I called my PCP (obviously) to ask if they dealt with this kind of care. I was told (by the front desk, not the doc) that he only prescribes gel, etc. By having already established a protocol with the other doc, it was pretty easy for me to walk in with recent labs, show my PCP what we've been doing, and ask him to simply 'take over'. He agreed without batting an eyelash. 

Now, on to a few issues/questions. With the last doc, I was never asked to fast before they drew blood. This doc told me to, and further, at Labcorp this morning (results posted as soon as I have em' in hand) I was asked if I had eaten. Was the last doc doing me a disservice by not having me fast? Could EVERYTHING potentially have been skewed? 

Next - with the last doc, they drew LOTS of blood - I mean upwards of 10 vials. I just figured that was necessary given all the labs I was asking to have done (CBC, Lipids, Metabolic, Cortisol, E2, Prolactin, etc). At Labcorp this morning, only 3 vials were drawn. Was the original doc overdoing it, or did Labcorp fvck up this morning? This has me concerned. 

Finally - I've been feeling pretty good lately. I'm VERY curious to see how prolactin comes back, because I haven't really been experiencing the symptoms lately which I believe were related to slightly elevated PRL. I'm also interested to see how test and cortisol come back now that labs were done in the am, fasted. 

Currently, I'm still at 200mg/week (100mg every 3.5 days) and HCG at 300iu 3x weekly (Mon-Wed-Fri). Still no AI, no signs of E2 sides as far as I can tell. Hopefully, they'll get the fcking sensitive assay right this time as I gave Labcorp their own codes directly (thanks for the info Kel). 

I'll follow up with lab results asap. In the meantime, I very much look forward to any/all feedback!

----------


## FONZY007

Cool, looks good. Pretty much the same thing I did.. Well my endo said to start to see my GP

----------


## bigt405

As far as the blood goes my doctor takes 3 vials also, but has never said anything about fasting.

----------


## GeriatricOne

Ditto, 3 vials and not always full vials, and never told to fast. In fact, on my 1st blood draw appointment I asked if I should fast and was told it was not necessary for the testosterone related tests.

----------


## gbrice75

> Cool, looks good. Pretty much the same thing I did.. Well my endo said to start to see my GP





> As far as the blood goes my doctor takes 3 vials also, but has never said anything about fasting.





> Ditto, 3 vials and not always full vials, and never told to fast. In fact, on my 1st blood draw appointment I asked if I should fast and was told it was not necessary for the testosterone related tests.


Thanks guys, sounds like 3 vials is pretty standard. Maybe the last doc was a fvcking sadist!?!  :Hmmmm: 

As for fasting - good to know, doesn't sound like it's necessary. It wasn't a big deal though as I went in the morning, basically just skipped breakfast, which allowed me to eat more later in the day.  :Big Grin:

----------


## gbrice75

Bump. Kel, GD, Vette, Bass, HRT... fellas?! lol

----------


## gbrice75

Latest Labs (LabCorp). Blood drawn in the am, fasted state:

Note: this was taken from a report that gets emailed to me, so it's not the 'hard copy', hence, you'll see some numbers that only show > vs. the actual number. I'll update with the actual figure when I have the hard copy in my hands.

*Testosterone, Free and Total*
Free Testosterone (Direct)	>50.0	8 (7-25.1)
Testosterone, Serum >1500 (348-1197)

Note: Holy shit! Free test is above 50? Anything to worry about here?  

*CBC/Diff Ambiguous Default*
Neutrophils	65 %	(40-74)	
Baso (Absolute)	0.0 x10E3/uL	(0.0-0.2)
Lymphs	24 %	(14-46)
Immature Granulocytes	0 %	(0-2)
Hematocrit	48.3 %	(37.5-51.0)
RBC	5.20 x10E6/uL	(4.14-5.80)
MCH	30.6 pg	(26.6-33.0)
MCHC	32.9 g/dL	(31.5-35.7)
MCV	93 fL	(79-97)
Monocytes	8 %	(4-13)
Hemoglobin	15.9 g/dL	(12.6-17.7)
Lymphs (Absolute)	1.6 x10E3/uL (0.7-4.5)
Immature Grans (Abs)	0.0 x10E3/uL (0.0-0.1)
Eos (Absolute)	0.1 x10E3/uL (0.0-0.4)
WBC	6.4 x10E3/uL (4.0-10.5)
RDW	14.6 % (12.3-15.4)
Platelets	201 x10E3/uL (140-415)
Eos	2 %	(0-7)
Neutrophils (Absolute)	4.2 x10E3/uL (1.8-7.8)
Basos	1 %	(0-3)
Monocytes(Absolute)	0.5 x10E3/uL (0.1-1.0)

*Estradiol, Sensitive*
Estradiol, Sensitive	39 pg/mL	(3-70)

*Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum*
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 40.4 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

Note: Not thrilled with this number. Stopped taking nettle root a while ago (simply ran out)... looks like I need to restock. 

*Prolactin*
Prolactin	9.3 ng/mL	(4.0-15.2)

Note: VERY happy with this. As some of you may remember, mine was (slightly) elevated the last couple of labs.  :Smilie: 

*Comp. Metabolic Panel*
BUN	26 mg/dL	(6-20) Flagged High
Sodium, Serum	136 mmol/L	(134-144)
Glucose, Serum	82 mg/dL	(65-99)
Creatinine, Serum	1.19 mg/dL	(0.76-1.27)
Albumin, Serum	4.3 g/dL	(3.5-5.5)
Carbon Dioxide, Total	23 mmol/L	(20-32)
Potassium, Serum	4.2 mmol/L	(3.5-5.2)
Calcium, Serum	9.0 mg/dL	(8.7-10.2)
eGFR If Africn Am	90 mL/min/1.73 (>59)
A/G Ratio	2.0 1	(1.1-2.5)
Globulin, Total	2.1 g/dL	(1.5-4.5)
ALT (SGPT)	34 IU/L	(0-44)
AST (SGOT)	34 IU/L	(0-40)
eGFR If NonAfricn Am	78 mL/min/1.73	( >59)
Alkaline Phosphatase, S	45 IU/L	(25-150)
Bilirubin, Total	0.9 mg/dL	(0.0-1.2)
Chloride, Serum	100 mmol/L (97-108)
Protein, Total, Serum	6.4 g/dL	(6.0-8.5)
BUN/Creatinine Ratio	22 1	(8-19) Flagged as high

*Cortisol*
Cortisol	12.6 ug/dL	(2.3-19.4)

*Lipid Panel*
Cholesterol, Total	128 mg/dL	(100-199)
HDL Cholesterol	41 mg/dL	(>39)
Triglycerides	55 mg/dL	(0-149)
LDL Cholesterol Calc	76 mg/dL	(0-99)
VLDL Cholesterol Cal	11 mg/dL	(5-40)

*Note: Argh.... forgot to ask for a Thyroid panel!!  Opted not to have DHEA tested for since I already supplement with it regardless, and there's nothing more I can do (to my knowledge) to bring it up. Figured why bother paying for an additional test...*

Anyway, feedback!?!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vettester

GB, on the fly with my phone, so can't post that much. Your free test is just relative to your high serum score. Get your serum reduced to a normal range and your free test will follow suit.

I'll try to post more later ...

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## gbrice75

> GB, on the fly with my phone, so can't post that much. Your free test is just relative to your high serum score. Get your serum reduced to a normal range and your free test will follow suit.
> 
> I'll try to post more later ...


Thx Vette... but is it bad to have it (free test) that high? I mean if not, I don't mind. What's odd is SHBG is relatively high too... I would have expected a lower free test based on the higher SHBG... but as you said, it's all relative to serum score.

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## jomamma007

shbg doesn't mean a thing if your free is at 50! Lower your dosage and get that serum down, your free will drop as vette said as well as estrogen which in turn should lower shbg ( add some vitamin d3 to lower it as well)... Having a free testosterone level twice the top of the range is not healthy long term

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## gbrice75

> shbg doesn't mean a thing if your free is at 50! Lower your dosage and get that serum down, your free will drop as vette said as well as estrogen


Re: dropping estrogen - I'm pretty happy with where it's at currently - do you/any of you feel it's too high?




> which in turn should lower shbg ( add some vitamin d3 to lower it as well)


Already supplementing 50,000iu D3/week. Gotta restock nettle root as it seemed to help while I was using it. 




> Having a free testosterone level twice the top of the range is not healthy long term


This is what my main concern was/is, but are you certain about this? I'm under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that total test being too high is the bigger concern vs. free test. Also, I would have expected to see higher E2 considering I'm not currently running any AI (but do have adex on hand).

----------


## jomamma007

> Re: dropping estrogen - I'm pretty happy with where it's at currently - do you/any of you feel it's too high?
> 
> 
> 
> Already supplementing 50,000iu D3/week. Gotta restock nettle root as it seemed to help while I was using it. 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what my main concern was/is, but are you certain about this? I'm under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that total test being too high is the bigger concern vs. free test. Also, I would have expected to see higher E2 considering I'm not currently running any AI (but do have adex on hand).


It's the opposite, total can be high without a problem, it's free that needs to be kept in check. We shall wait for Gdev and Kel now :0

----------


## Vettester

> Thx Vette... but is it bad to have it (free test) that high? I mean if not, I don't mind. What's odd is SHBG is relatively high too... I would have expected a lower free test based on the higher SHBG... but as you said, it's all relative to serum score.


GB, it will be near impossible to sustain a healthy balance, or call it homeostasis for the long-haul when testosterone levels are this elevated (as noted by Jomamma). Your testosterone serum is calculated at slightly over 1,900ng/dl, which puts your free testosterone at 2.64%. Regardless of your total serum level, your free and bio-available testosterone is what your body is using, and it will usually be in the 2% to 3% range, which is ideal. This is contingent on SHBG, and weakly on albumin. IMO, I wouldn't put too much focus on your SHBG at this point, and would look more at reducing your serum to a more sustainable level. Again, if you're in the 2.6% range right now, you can easily figure out where that will put you relative to your serum (e.g., 1,000ng/dl = 26.0ng/dl).

Can you briefly tell me your protocol again, and when you took your last injection relative to your labs?

----------


## gbrice75

> GB, it will be near impossible to sustain a healthy balance, or call it homeostasis for the long-haul when testosterone levels are this elevated (as noted by Jomamma). Your testosterone serum is calculated at slightly over 1,900ng/dl, which puts your free testosterone at 2.64%. Regardless of your total serum level, your free and bio-available testosterone is what your body is using, and it will usually be in the 2% to 3% range, which is ideal. This is contingent on SHBG, and weakly on albumin. IMO, I wouldn't put too much focus on your SHBG at this point, and would look more at reducing your serum to a more sustainable level. Again, if you're in the 2.6% range right now, you can easily figure out where that will put you relative to your serum (e.g., 1,000ng/dl = 26.0ng/dl).
> 
> Can you briefly tell me your protocol again, and when you took your last injection relative to your labs?


Understood Vette, and appreciate your attempt to explain to a mathematical retard (me) how to calculate. However, you state that 2-3% range is ideal for free test, and I'm at around 2.64% - so what exactly is the concern?

My protocol is currently 200mg cyp/week (100mg every 3.5 days). I know this is high and do plan to lower it... just wanted to get these labs over with first. 

300iu HCG 3x weekly (Mon-Wed-Fri). AI on hand but not currently using it. This lab was done fasted, 8am Thursday morning - roughly 12 hours after my last injection. I've been told this isn't ideal, but that also confuses me as with cyp being a long/slow ester, I can't make the connection as to how an injection would affect blood being drawn only 12 hours later.

----------


## Vettester

> Understood Vette, and appreciate your attempt to explain to a mathematical retard (me) how to calculate. However, you state that 2-3% range is ideal for free test, and I'm at around 2.64% - so what exactly is the concern?
> 
> My protocol is currently 200mg cyp/week (100mg every 3.5 days). I know this is high and do plan to lower it... just wanted to get these labs over with first. 
> 
> 300iu HCG 3x weekly (Mon-Wed-Fri). AI on hand but not currently using it. This lab was done fasted, 8am Thursday morning - roughly 12 hours after my last injection. I've been told this isn't ideal, but that also confuses me as with cyp being a long/slow ester, I can't make the connection as to how an injection would affect blood being drawn only 12 hours later.


GB, the concern is the amount of free testosterone that is unbound in the body. The percentage is constant, and in most men will be 2% to 3% of the total serum level. If it's higher/lower than that, then that's where the focus on SHBG will be directed. So, you could have a total serum of 300ng/dl, or it could be 3,000ng/dl, the amount in your case (right now) would be 2.64%. Again, it's not the % percentage % that is the concern, but the ACTUAL amount of testosterone in your system, which is calculated (TS * %) or (1900 x 2.64 = 50ng/dl of free test). The range is 7 - to -25ng, so you're double the max on the LabCorp reference range. Me personally, I think 18ng to 26ng/dl of free test is a long-term, sustainable range for TRT, but that's just my .02 on that. The ONLY way you will get in that 26ng/dl bracket for free testosterone is to reduce your total serum to the 1,000ng/dl or lower, which will require an adjustment to your exogenous protocol. 

Hopefully this isn't confusing the matter.

----------


## FONZY007

Also looks like he did BW early correct?


If he waited wouldn't those numbers improved

----------


## gbrice75

> GB, the concern is the amount of free testosterone that is unbound in the body. The percentage is constant, and in most men will be 2% to 3% of the total serum level. If it's higher/lower than that, then that's where the focus on SHBG will be directed. *So, you could have a total serum of 300ng/dl, or it could be 3,000ng/dl, the amount in your case (right now) would be 2.64%. Again, it's not the % percentage % that is the concern, but the ACTUAL amount of testosterone in your system*, which is calculated (TS * %) or (1900 x 2.64 = 50ng/dl of free test). The range is 7 - to -25ng, so you're double the max on the LabCorp reference range. Me personally, I think 18ng to 26ng/dl of free test is a long-term, sustainable range for TRT, but that's just my .02 on that. The ONLY way you will get in that 26ng/dl bracket for free testosterone is to reduce your total serum to the 1,000ng/dl or lower, which will require an adjustment to your exogenous protocol. 
> 
> Hopefully this isn't confusing the matter.


I think I got it now Vette... the bold did it. I'll probably start with a small adjustment... 160g/week and then take it from there. I assume i'll probably wind up at around 120g/week though in the long run. 




> Also looks like he did BW early correct?
> 
> 
> If he waited wouldn't those numbers improved


Early as in the time of day? Yes. I assume test numbers would have decreased later in the day, as well as cortisol.

----------


## kelkel

It's possible the numbers would have improved. Just depends on how GB metabolizes his testosterone . Vettes on the money (love the calculations) as expected. I would add the stinging nettle back in as well as titrate back to 75mg x 2 per week and re-do bloods (abbreviated) in 4 weeks or so. Now, I'm not saying your E2 is elevated as we are all different, but when E rises so does shbg. LEF recommends between 20-30 but we are all different. The opposite would be increasing test suppresses shbg. Catch 22 huh! Also remember that nettle can possibly lower dht levels too. So.....

The Testosterone Controversy - 2 - Life Extension

It's all about how you feel GB. Well, that and long term health, building muscle, erectile ability, hair loss, healthy H & H levels, etc. But I digress....

Also. If you still aren't happy with your shbg level then you may consider injecting one time per week (gasp) as it will suppress it more with the larger dose as opposed to the twice per week smaller dosing schedule. It remains to be seen what will happen after reducing your injection amount.

----------


## gbrice75

> It's possible the numbers would have improved. Just depends on how GB metabolizes his testosterone . Vettes on the money (love the calculations) as expected. I would add the stinging nettle back in as well as titrate back to 75mg x 2 per week and re-do bloods (abbreviated) in 4 weeks or so. Now, I'm not saying your E2 is elevated as we are all different, but when E rises so does shbg. LEF recommends between 20-30 but we are all different. The opposite would be increasing test suppresses shbg. Catch 22 huh! Also remember that nettle can possibly lower dht levels too. So.....
> 
> The Testosterone Controversy - 2 - Life Extension
> 
> It's all about how you feel GB. Well, that and long term health, building muscle, erectile ability, hair loss, healthy H & H levels, etc. But I digress....
> 
> Also. If you still aren't happy with your shbg level then you may consider injecting one time per week (gasp) as it will suppress it more with the larger dose as opposed to the twice per week smaller dosing schedule. It remains to be seen what will happen after reducing your injection amount.


Thanks Kel. Definitely adding the nettle back in, especially considering the potential to lower DHT (I wasn't aware of that). 

Aside from that, I'm wondering if I should start up adex again (I was running it for a very brief period, but discontinued... for no good reason honestly)... my dosage was already relatively low at .25mg 2x weekly (day after my injections). 

We can cross hair loss off the list... that concern has LONG since been a non-issue!  :Big Grin:

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## kelkel

I would not worry about DHT until you test it. DHT gets a bad rap.

----------


## HRTstudent

It's pretty obvious you're taking just way way too much testosterone . That's really the low hanging fruit that needs to be addressed first.

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## gbrice75

> I would not worry about DHT until you test it. DHT gets a bad rap.


Noted, thx Kel.




> It's pretty obvious you're taking just way way too much testosterone. That's really the low hanging fruit that needs to be addressed first.


On it guys... agreed, blatantly obvious at this point. I was waiting for this labwork (big gap due to switching providers, etc) to confirm that which I already was expecting... going to knock it down to 75g/week as suggested, then retest. Probably won't be in 4 weeks (out of pocket expense more or less), but next labs will be at that dosage.

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## 38onTRT

For the sake of me not knowing, what is all that extra Free Test doing...? I'm surprised your Hematocrit and Hemoglobin isnt much higher.. Do you give blood?

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## austinite

> For the sake of me not knowing, what is all that extra Free Test doing...? I'm surprised your Hematocrit and Hemoglobin isnt much higher.. Do you give blood?


Actually hTC is about par for the course. 

Great coverage above.

Gbrice, do you feel any fatigue or slight sleepiness around 3pm?

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## gbrice75

> For the sake of me not knowing, what is all that extra Free Test doing...? I'm surprised your Hematocrit and Hemoglobin isnt much higher.. Do you give blood?


Hopefully building muscle!  :LOL: 

Re: Hema and Hemo - I just gave blood about 6 weeks ago. Both were JUST over the high end of the range. Will be donating again in a couple months.




> Actually hTC is about par for the course. 
> 
> Great coverage above.
> 
> Gbrice, do you feel any fatigue or slight sleepiness around 3pm?


I can't say for sure Austin... only because I always have a slight fatigue lol. The time I have to sleep isn't great to begin with (roughly 6 hours) and to make matters worse, I don't sleep very well more often than not. :\

Curious though - why do you ask?

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## austinite

> Hopefully building muscle! 
> 
> Re: Hema and Hemo - I just gave blood about 6 weeks ago. Both were JUST over the high end of the range. Will be donating again in a couple months.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say for sure Austin... only because I always have a slight fatigue lol. The time I have to sleep isn't great to begin with (roughly 6 hours) and to make matters worse, I don't sleep very well more often than not. :\
> 
> Curious though - why do you ask?


I asked because my cortisol levels were similar to yours. For everyone, cortisol levels drop around 2 to 3 pm, this was causing me to crash, even though I was still in range. Medication fixed that. Since you took this in the AM, your PM number is probably around 7 or 8. But I was just curious, it's possible that it doesn't have the same effect on you.

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## gbrice75

> I asked because my cortisol levels were similar to yours. For everyone, cortisol levels drop around 2 to 3 pm, this was causing me to crash, even though I was still in range. Medication fixed that. Since you took this in the AM, your PM number is probably around 7 or 8. But I was just curious, it's possible that it doesn't have the same effect on you.


All prior lab work was done around 2-3pm believe it or not, and as you would expect, cortisol was around the number you mentioned. Even then, I can't say I recall any feeling of crashing around that time moreso than any other.

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## gbrice75

Just a brief update - lowered dosage from 200mg/week to 160/week a few months ago. Just got back current labs (test only) and it's still pretty high:

Total Test - 1477 (348 - 1197)
Free Test - 33.8 (8.7 - 25.1)

I'd like to get total down in the 900 range but keep free somewhere in the 25-30 range. What would you suggest? I can lower dosage again to 120mg/wk and see how that goes. 

Btw - re: keeping free test up, I am supplementing with nettle root extract and D3.

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## kelkel

Sounds like an appropriate reduction GB.

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## joebailey1271

Gb do u feel any better after lowering your dose?

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## bass

are you on once a week protocol? if not you may want to consider twice a week protocol.

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## gbrice75

> Gb do u feel any better after lowering your dose?


I can't say I feel any different one way or the other (physically), just psychologically in that my levels aren't through the roof.




> are you on once a week protocol? if not you may want to consider twice a week protocol.


Nope, 2x weekly, ever 3.5 days.

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## gbrice75

Latest labs, tests done on 9/20. Appreciate any and all feedback.  :Smilie: 

Current regimen is 60mg cyp every 3.5 days. 300iu HCG M/W/F. No AI (but have arimidex on hand just in case)

*CBC With Differential/Platelet*
WBC 6.0 x10E3/uL (3.4 − 10.8)
RBC 5.53 x10E6/uL (4.14 − 5.80)
Hemoglobin 17.1 g/dL (12.6 − 17.7)
Hematocrit 49.5 % (37.5 − 51.0)
MCV 90 fL (79 − 97)
MCH 30.9 pg (26.6 − 33.0)
MCHC 34.5 g/dL (31.5 − 35.7)
RDW 12.8 % (12.3 − 15.4)
Platelets 178 x10E3/uL (155 − 379)
Neutrophils 62 % (40 − 74)
Lymphs 27 % (14 − 46)
Monocytes 7 % (4 − 12)
Eos 3 % (0 − 5)
Basos 1 % (0 − 3)
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.8 x10E3/uL (1.4 − 7.0)
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.6 x10E3/uL (0.7 − 3.1)
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.4 x10E3/uL (0.1 − 0.9)
Eos (Absolute) 0.2 x10E3/uL (0.0 − 0.4)
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL (0.0 − 0.2)
Immature Granulocytes 0 % (0 − 2)
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL (0.0 − 0.1)

*Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)*
Glucose, Serum 96 mg/dL (65 − 99)
BUN 26 *High* mg/dL (6 − 20)
Creatinine, Serum 1.14 mg/dL (0.76 − 1.27)
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 82 mL/min/1.73 >59 
eGFR If Africn Am 94 mL/min/1.73 >59 
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 23 *High* (8 − 19)
Sodium, Serum 140 mmol/L (134 − 144)
Potassium, Serum 4.1 mmol/L (3.5 − 5.2)
Chloride, Serum 105 mmol/L (97 − 108)
Carbon Dioxide, Total 24 mmol/L (19 − 28)
Calcium, Serum 9.1 mg/dL (8.7 − 10.2)
Protein, Total, Serum 6.9 g/dL (6.0 − 8.5)
Albumin, Serum 4.5 g/dL (3.5 − 5.5)
Globulin, Total 2.4 g/dL (1.5 − 4.5)
A/G Ratio 1.9 (1.1 − 2.5)
Bilirubin, Total 0.7 mg/dL (0.0 − 1.2)
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 49 IU/L (44 − 102)
AST (SGOT) 34 IU/L (0 − 40)
ALT (SGPT) 37 IU/L (0 − 44)

*Lipid Panel*
Cholesterol, Total 156 mg/dL (100 − 199)
Triglycerides 47 mg/dL (0 − 149)
HDL Cholesterol 48 mg/dL (>39 )
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 9 mg/dL (5 − 40)
LDL Cholesterol Calc 99 mg/dL (0 − 99) * (SHOULD I BE CONCERNED??)*

*Testosterone,Free and Total*
Testosterone , Serum 1186 ng/dL (348 − 1197) *(FINALLY WITHIN RANGE!!!)*
Free Testosterone(Direct) 29.6 High pg/mL (8.7 − 25.1) *(AWESOME!)*
Cortisol 16.6 ug/dL (2.3 − 19.4) *(THIS WAS AM, FASTED - SHOULD I BE CONCERNED??)*
(Cortisol AM 6.2 − 19.4
Cortisol PM 2.3 − 11.9)

*Prolactin* 4.3 ng/mL (4.0 − 15.2) *(*VERY* HAPPY TO SEE THIS DOWN)*

*Estradiol, Sensitive* 23 pg/mL (3 − 70)

*Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum* 47.6 nmol/L (16.5 − 55.9) *(I'M SUPPLEMENTING WITH NETTLE ROOT EXTRACT AND VIT D3, AND STILL THIS HIGH!? ANY SUGGESTIONS?)*

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## kelkel

BUN may just be dehydration.
LDL. Not really concerned as your overall picture is good. Consider Slo-Niacin at bed time. Using Niacin to Improve Cardiovascular Health - Life Extension
T levels look great.

Couple thoughts on your shbg: Quickest way to suppress shbg is to increase test. You've done that, so, either just give it more time on your current protocol and see if the D/Nettle works over time. Knowing your currend D level would have been good (don't see a DHEA-S either.) Danazol will help with shbg but it's not a means to an end, unless the D & nettle help to hold it down. Other than that you could slightly increase your T if possible to help suppress it for a brief period of time and then return to your protocol and see if it holds. The last part, along with implementing D and Nettle at the same time is what worked for me.

Regardless, your BW looks good GB. Way to go!

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## bass

looking good GB! wini and var can lower SHBG quickly, but compared to the rest of your levels I wouldn't worry about it. how you feeling?

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## gbrice75

> BUN may just be dehydration.
> LDL. Not really concerned as your overall picture is good. Consider Slo-Niacin at bed time. Using Niacin to Improve Cardiovascular Health - Life Extension
> T levels look great.


Thanks Kel. That makes sense (BUN); I'm *extremely* guilty of not drinking enough water, not nearly enough. It's one of my biggest flaws with regard to health. I'm sure a lot more than BUN is being affected too. 




> Couple thoughts on your shbg: Quickest way to suppress shbg is to increase test. You've done that, so, either just give it more time on your current protocol and see if the D/Nettle works over time. Knowing your currend D level would have been good (don't see a DHEA-S either.) Danazol will help with shbg but it's not a means to an end, unless the D & nettle help to hold it down. Other than that you could slightly increase your T if possible to help suppress it for a brief period of time and then return to your protocol and see if it holds. The last part, along with implementing D and Nettle at the same time is what worked for me.
> 
> Regardless, your BW looks good GB. Way to go!


If you recall, I've actually *lowered* my T dosage over the past 6 months. I was prescribed 200mg/week and that sent my test through the roof, >1500. Reduced to 160mg/week and was still high (but under 1500). This is my first lab at the 120mg/week dosage and it's looking good, at the high end of the range. 

Honestly, I guess I shouldn't be overly concerned with SHBG considering free test is looking really good without total test being super high. That's pretty much the goal, right? 




> looking good GB! wini and var can lower SHBG quickly, but compared to the rest of your levels I wouldn't worry about it. how you feeling?


Thanks brother. I'm feeling about the same... going through a stressful time right now so it's hard to get a real real, i.e. my life at the present time isn't comparable to my 'usual' life/day to day routines.

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## bass

^^^ sorry to heat bro, I hope things will workout for you. stay healthy.

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## gbrice75

> ^^^ sorry to heat bro, I hope things will workout for you. stay healthy.


Thanks brother.

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## kelkel

Correct on your assessment of shbg GB. Free T is great but I'd still maintain your protocol of D and Nettle and see how it goes over time.

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## gbrice75

> Correct on your assessment of shbg GB. Free T is great but I'd still maintain your protocol of D and Nettle and see how it goes over time.


Thanks Kel, I have no intentions on changing anything presently as I seem to be in a decent place, just hope it stabilizes, or changes for the better.

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## theBrewmeister

Sorry to resurrect this thread, I'll probably get flamed for it, but it's got to be the best TRT thread on the site. Would love to know how you're getting on these days GB. I'm currently in the exact same situation you were when you started this thread - same exact age too.

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