# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING Q & A >  Cardio on an empty stomach???

## WEBB

Cardio on an empty stomach, Good or Bad??? please discuss as to why or why not.

i have always done it but i am unsure i have read that it might be better to eat first, so you dont waste muscle.

HELP

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## MrMent1on

cardio is done on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. when you first wake up there is no energy present (no carbs). so by doing cardio on an empty stomach your body has to tap into your stored energy (fat) for energy. in other words if you eat then do cardio it will first burn the food present, the food you just ate.

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## SPIKE

Regardless on how thick this one gets I"m staying out of it. This will go pages and pages if allowed.

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## farrebarre

> cardio is done on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. when you first wake up there is no energy present (no carbs). so by doing cardio on an empty stomach your body has to tap into your stored energy (fat) for energy. in other words if you eat then do cardio it will first burn the food present, the food you just ate.


agree with this
i do cardio 5 am on empty stomach and ive seen great results

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## WEBB

i hear what your saying Mr.ment1on, but do you think that instead of burning fat since your glycogen levels are low, your body will actually produce cortisol while in a fasted state and doing cardio, that will in turn lead to muscle loss.

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## lucabratzi

> cardio is done on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. when you first wake up there is no energy present (no carbs). so by doing cardio on an empty stomach your body has to tap into your stored energy (fat) for energy. in other words if you eat then do cardio it will first burn the food present, the food you just ate.


i thought this too, cause thats what everyone here says...but when ur body taps into an energy source it may use muslce to...i have no evidence on it...but why would it burn just fat and not muscle...

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## chinups

Just do it and lvoe it. END OF DISCUSSION!

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## WEBB

i do it and i love it, but when getting ready for a comp its important not to lose any muscle, or as little as possible anyway. so i was hoping to get a general consensus on how everyone feels.

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## farrebarre

why not use some test prop, clen /t3 ? with cardio in the am

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## 1819

> i hear what your saying Mr.ment1on, but do you think that instead of burning fat since your glycogen levels are low, your body will actually produce cortisol while in a fasted state and doing cardio, that will in turn lead to muscle loss.


even if you lose some muscle you are doing cardio for fat loss i assume. the muscle you can always put back. very fair trade.

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## doctorherb

> cardio is done on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. when you first wake up there is no energy present (no carbs). so by doing cardio on an empty stomach your body has to tap into your stored energy (fat) for energy. in other words if you eat then do cardio it will first burn the food present, the food you just ate.



agreed...low intensity cardio

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## AandF6969

If you keep your heart rate below 75% or so of your MHR, and don't go longer than 45 mins or an hour, you should be golden. 

I'm paranoid as well, I bring scrambled egg whites and green beans to the gym with me to eat them immediately after cardio

I also take 5g glutamine before cardio.

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## tele20

> agreed...low intensity cardio


Yea I try to walk on a 15 level incline for a half hour at 4.0 speed.

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## SPIKE

> your body will actually produce cortisol while in a fasted state and doing cardio, that will in turn lead to muscle loss.


Ahhhhhhh keep going.......








> Just do it and lvoe it. END OF DISCUSSION!


Easy to say but hard to do buddy. The fraction of a pound can put you in a completely different weight class. Everything needs to be covered to the Tee when competing..








> why not use some test prop, clen/t3 ? with cardio in the am


Some do but you still want to take the most effective route possible. Plus T3 is a nondiscriminatory compound, have to be careful with that one.







> even if you lose some muscle you are doing cardio for fat loss i assume. the muscle you can always put back. very fair trade.


Statisitcs say, on average of course, that only 6-8lbs. of actual LBM can be gained a year _naturally_. Tough to risk losing some of that hard earned LBM if there are routes to aviod that. PLus its much harder for some (me) to put on LBM then it is to lose BF%. We're all looking for the best possible answers with this. 







> I also take 5g glutamine before cardio.


What effect odes the Glutamine have?

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## farrebarre

> Some do but you still want to take the most effective route possible. Plus *T3 is a nondiscriminatory compound*, have to be careful with that one.


what does that mean ? :Hmmmm:

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## SPIKE

> what does that mean ?


Means it doesnt discriminate and doesnt care wether it breaks down fat or muscle. IMO T3 is something more need to research before taking. Can be a great synergist for some but very catabolic for others.

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## SPIKE

> agreed...low intensity cardio


Always listen to this man, he's full of knowledge.

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## farrebarre

> Means it doesnt discriminate and doesnt care wether it breaks down fat or Protein. IMO T3 is something more need to research before taking. Can be a great synergist for some but very catabolic for others.


aha aiight, thnx bro

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## BigJames

What about combining your weight training and cardio into one session:

6am, eat 1/3 cup of oatmeal and 20grams of whey.
6:45am train with high intensity
7:30am cardio - low intensity 30 minutes
8:00am, eat 50-75grams of whey.

Is this wasted effort? I heard from a couple of people that this can be pretty effective - even for contest prep.

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## SPIKE

> 6am, eat 1/3 cup of oatmeal and 20grams of whey.
> *6:45am train with high intensity*
> 7:30am cardio - low intensity 30 minutes
> 8:00am, eat 50-75grams of whey.


Do you think from 6-7:30 is enough time to burn through what you just ate? While your body is trying to metabolize that meal you're in the gym using it as energy to get you through your W/O.

I get what you're saying as I do the same James. I love Cardio PWO, assuming that glycogen stores are tapped it can be very effective. 

Statistics will prove that it takes 15-20 minutes at THR to burn through Stored Glucose before even looking at fat to be utilized. So the key phrase in your statement was "Train high intensity" making sure carbs are out of the way and gluconeogenesis will result. We know dam well fat is readily available, lets put it to work. The key is how..............

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## WEBB

glutamine helps with kepping your body anti-catabolic, i believe. so adding it before your cardio on an empty stomach wouldnt hurt,
i do roughly 35-40min of cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. i keep my heart rate at 126 or so, which is exactly where it should be. i also take clen and niacin in the morning. the niacin just helps get me warm and get a sweat going.

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## Big Bapper

Statistics will prove that it takes 15-20 minutes at THR to burn through Stored Glucose before even looking at fat to be utilized. So the key phrase in your statement was "Train high intensity" making sure carbs are out of the way and gluconeogenesis will result. We know dam well fat is readily available, lets put it to work. The key is how..............[/QUOTE]

Interesting post Jay, when dieting I have always done carido first thing in the morning on a empty stomach. But this has got me thinking of carido PWO.

How much effect do you think would doing carido PWO have in regards to muscle loss. Your Body is in a very catabolic sate after high intensity training and is crying out for PWO nutrition. Witch do you think would burn more muscle. Doing carido PWO or on a empty stomach ??

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## Big Bapper

[QUOTE=WEBB]glutamine helps with kepping your body anti-catabolic, i believe. so adding it before your cardio on an empty stomach wouldnt hurt,
i do roughly 35-40min of cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. i keep my heart rate at 126 or so, which is exactly where it should be. i also take clen and niacin in the morning. the niacin just helps get me warm and get a sweat going.[/QU

I think your body would try to use the glutamine for energy.

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## sooners04

I take some BCAA's and a thermogenic right after I wake up and then do cardio between 65-70% MHR

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## mwolffey

> I take some BCAA's and a thermogenic right after I wake up and then do cardio between 65-70% MHR




this is exactly what i have been doing pre-contest, and has worked great, however with 2 weeks left im up to 2 45 minute sessions a day...thank god i get to back off a bit next week :Wink/Grin:

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## SPIKE

> I think your body would try to use the glutamine for energy.


 :Werd:   :Doody de Doo:  








> I take some BCAA's and a thermogenic right after I wake up and then do cardio between 65-70% MHR


I love BCAA's prior to cardio as well!!! I've seen studies backing both sides as far as why they're good and/or dont do anything. I feel that they put up a great defense wall for protecting LBM as fat is being utilized for energy. The problem in that statement is that there are studies showing otherwise. It's one of those "what works for you" deals.

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## SPIKE

> Interesting post Jay, when dieting I have always done carido first thing in the morning on a empty stomach. But this has got me thinking of carido PWO.
> 
> How much effect do you think would doing carido PWO have in regards to muscle loss. Your Body is in a very catabolic sate after high intensity training and is crying out for PWO nutrition. *Witch do you think would burn more muscle. Doing carido PWO or on a empty stomach* ??



If this has worked for you in the past buddy keep doing it.


*This takes us back to my previous post in the above thread. I really believe that its based on the individual and what works for them. I have worked with many people over the past 6+ years as a trainer. I have tried different methods with all types of people keeping my fingers crossed for more definite answers. Regardless of protocol results always vary.

If asking me what works for me then I'd say AM cardio at THR on a complete empty stomach. If PWO then I'll take a few BCAA's PWO and crank out 20-25 min at a lower ended THR (65%). This is what has worked for me. Has eaten away at LBM with some that I've worked with and others preserve it all. If you stop and think about it, kind of crazy how our body has more control over certain things then we do.*

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## SPIKE

Here's a quick study on AM cardio on an empty stomach:

Int J Sports Med 1988 Jun;9(3):240-3 Related Articles, Links 

Energy metabolism during exercise at different time intervals following a meal.

Willcutts KF, Wilcox AR, Grunewald KK.

Department of Physical Education, Dance and Leisure Studies, Kansas State University, Manhattan 66506.

The objective of this study was to compare caloric expenditure and substrate utilization during exercise begun at different time intervals following a standard test meal or in the fasted state. Eight physically fit women (aged 21-27 years) participated in four separate exercise trials. In three trials, the subjects consumed a 940-kcal meal following an overnight fast and began exercising either 30, 60, or 90 min after the meal. In the other trial, the subjects did not consume any breakfast prior to exercising. Energy expenditure and substrate utilization were determined by indirect calorimetry during the last 23 min of a 30-min run on a treadmill at an average work load of 62% VO2max. There were no significant differences among trials when comparing the total caloric expenditures (range: 215-219 kcal). *However, the subjects oxidized significantly more fat (94.3 kcal) when they exercised on an empty stomach than when they exercised 60 or 90 min after the meal* (71.6 and 68.8 kcal, respectively) (P less than 0.05). It was concluded that consumption of a meal prior to exercise does not increase the energy cost of the activity for physically fit women, but it does disrupt the pattern of substrate utilization, reducing the contribution of fat as an energy source.

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## MrMent1on

> Yea I try to walk on a 15 level incline for a half hour at 4.0 speed.


next time try walking at 2.5

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## MrMent1on

Yes indeed it is a good argument. Muscle loss could be an issue depending on the intensity and duration of your morning cardio session as well as your nutritional status. But argue about it? Why not tackle the issue of muscle loss head on? Simply measure your body fat and calculate your lean mass, then you'll know if you're losing muscle or not. unfortunately we dont really have the time nor proper tool to do this. so Jay is correct we could debate this fo rthe next 2 weeks, lol. so until we have a solution we will have to roll with the punches. take the good with the bad. I do not have a solution. does anyone?

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## SPIKE

> Yes indeed it is a good argument. Muscle loss could be an issue depending on the intensity and duration of your morning cardio session as well as your nutritional status. But argue about it? Why not tackle the issue of muscle loss head on? *Simply measure your body fat and calculate your lean mass, then you'll know if you're losing muscle or not.* unfortunately we dont really have the time nor proper tool to do this. so Jay is correct we could debate this fo rthe next 2 weeks, lol. so until we have a solution we will have to roll with the punches. take the good with the bad. I do not have a solution. does anyone?



That's what we're trying to do buddy, too many variables to form one simple answer though....

*This is what each any every person needs to do to come to their own conclusion. Not rely on the results and answers of others as they will widely vary.*

I figured at least 2 full pages, we still have a while to go  :LOL:

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## Big Bapper

I think your body would try to use the glutamine for energy.[/QUOTE]

Jay so you dont think in a fasted sate first thing in the morning your body would use whatever you put in to your stomach for energy meaning it would try to convert the glutamine for use as energy ??  :Icon Rolleyes:  

You are going to have to understand Jay I am not sitting here with a bunch of books and studies around me to back things up, everything I say comes straight from my head. Just trying to learn.......

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## Big Bapper

> I take some BCAA's and a thermogenic right after I wake up and then do cardio between 65-70% MHR


I think doing carido on a empty stomach ater using a thermogenic would cause a great deal of muscle loss. I would leave the Thermogenic till after carido.

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## Big Bapper

> If this has worked for you in the past buddy keep doing it.
> 
> 
> *This takes us back to my previous post in the above thread. I really believe that its based on the individual and what works for them. I have worked with many people over the past 6+ years as a trainer. I have tried different methods with all types of people keeping my fingers crossed for more definite answers. Regardless of protocol results always vary.
> 
> If asking me what works for me then I'd say AM cardio at THR on a complete empty stomach. If PWO then I'll take a few BCAA's PWO and crank out 20-25 min at a lower ended THR (65%). This is what has worked for me. Has eaten away at LBM with some that I've worked with and others preserve it all. If you stop and think about it, kind of crazy how our body has more control over certain things then we do.*


Yes carido first thing in the morning has worked to great effect with me, just like everyone else here I am just trying to find out how to preserve as much muscle as possible when dieting. So my thoughts were it takes all that time to burn stored glyogen stores before you can get access to the stored bodyfat
then surely after a workout your body would have burned the stored glyogen so your body would be in a fat burning sate ??

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## SPIKE

> Jay so you dont think in a fasted sate first thing in the morning your body would use whatever you put in to your stomach for energy meaning it would try to convert the glutamine for use as energy ??


Bap, look back to post #26 and the smileys I placed after quoting what you stated about this topic, I agreed with you not disagreed. You looking for a fight?  :LOL:

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## SPIKE

> Yes carido first thing in the morning has worked to great effect with me


Just add in "on an empty stomach" and I'll give the thumbs up all the way.

IMO eating before cardio is counter productive, no matter what your intensity is it will use the food for energy. You want to mobilize triglycerides to break down into FFA's and be put in the blood stream for fuel, not use what you just ate for fuel, hence counter-productive.

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## farrebarre

.....

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## Big Bapper

> Bap, look back to post #26 and the smileys I placed after quoting what you stated about this topic, I agreed with you not disagreed. You looking for a fight?


Are you asking ?? Only joking Bro. Must have miss read post.

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## Big Bapper

> Yes carido first thing in the morning has worked to great effect with me, just like everyone else here I am just trying to find out how to preserve as much muscle as possible when dieting. So my thoughts were it takes all that time to burn stored glyogen stores before you can get access to the stored bodyfat
> then surely after a workout your body would have burned the stored glyogen so your body would be in a fat burning sate ??


Carido on empty stomach I mean...............

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## tele20

> next time try walking at 2.5


Can i ask why so slow? When I walk at the incline of 15 at 4.0 it burns around 350-360 cals in a half hour. Does even this speed have the effect of muscle loss?

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## Random

For my contest this summer i have started cardio about 2 wks ago...previously i have always done cardio on a completely empty stomach at a low to moderate walking pace...i havent had too much trouble keeping muscle and i did those shows completely natural....this time i take 20grams of protein right before i go walking...maybe ill keep even more muscle this time... who knows...

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## SPIKE

> Are you asking ??


 :LOL:  , it's all love.









> Carido on empty stomach I mean...............


 :Cheers:

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## SPIKE

> When I walk at the incline of 15 at 4.0 it burns around *350-360 cals* in a half hour.


Calories burned are calories burned, there's no doubt about it. We are trying to find the best way to burn calories from in the form of Triglycerides not total kcals. 

When I perform my cardio I never even look at the total calories burned in that exact bout of cardio, I could care less. I concern myself more so with the amount of calories burned from fat stores.

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## SPIKE

> For my contest this summer i have started cardio about 2 wks ago...*previously i have always done cardio on a completely empty stomach at a low to moderate walking pace...i havent had too much trouble keeping muscle and i did those shows completely natural*....this time i take 20grams of protein right before i go walking...maybe ill keep even more muscle this time... who knows...


*So why try to fix something that isnt broken? I understand, if there's a possible way to improve your results why not go for it right? Let us know how it goes, good luck.*

20 grams of Protein in 80 kcal correct? Ok, so say you perform 30 minutes at your low to moderate walk, how many calories dose it say you burn? About 250 or so? Get ready b/c those initial 80kcal from your protein will be the first to go, then your stored glucose, then finally your fat. Hopefully by the time FFA's are being released into your blood stream you wont be cooling down.

As far as keeping muscle I"m sure it will, but you probably wont maximize fat loss throughout that duration. Good luck!!!

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## SPIKE

Page 2, I estimate 1 more  :Bbchatting:

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## tele20

> Calories burned are calories burned, there's no doubt about it. We are trying to find the best way to burn calories from in the form of Triglycerides not total kcals. 
> 
> When I perform my cardio I never even look at the total calories burned in that exact bout of cardio, I could care less. I concern myself more so with the amount of calories burned from fat stores.


Right, and I agree 100 percent. Thats why I like to do cardio in the morning before my first meal. I was just wondering why MrMention(sp?) told me to try to a speed of 2.5 rather then the 4.0? Any help?

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## Big Bapper

Prob because of the lower intensity to help preserve muscle.

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## SPIKE

> Prob because of the lower intensity to help preserve muscle.


That would be my guess as well Bap. 

Duration is much more important then intensity. As stated earlier, total calories burned isnt exactly what we are looking for when trying to maximize fat loss while preserving muscle.

For those that are fat or on the verge of being considered obese, then the protocol would differ. Whatever calories they burn would go in the plus column.

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## Big Bapper

[QUOTE=Jayhova] :LOL:  , it's all love.


First you want MrMent1on to tell you your "Gergeous". Now you are saying you love me ??

Is there anything you want to share with us Jay ??

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## jef

If burning fat is most important then how about doing cardio on a completely empty stomach first thing in th emorning for 45-50min then back to the gym in the evening and hit cardio again for another 20-45min after lifting?

Does it matter how soon to hit cardio in the am upon waking? should it be done asap or is 1/2-1 hour okay?

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## Big Bapper

Well Jay Culter says in his DVD. He walks his dogs before hitting the stairmaster.

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## Big Bapper

> Page 2, I estimate 1 more


Nearly on to page three Bro.

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## WEBB

> , it's all love.
> 
> 
> First you want MrMent1on to tell you your "Gergeous". Now you are saying you love me ??
> 
> Is there anything you want to share with us Jay ??



he has been writing all of his responses in RED, the color of love!!! :BbAily:  

I had no idea it would get this in depth, but i am happy that it answered a lot of my questions, except one. what should i take for BCAA?

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## Big Bapper

There you go Jay the writing is on the wall. Writing things in red it will be pink next.

I am only breaking your balls bro :Nutkick:  , WEBB it was a joke I took from MrMent1on contest prep Thread.

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## MrMent1on

> Right, and I agree 100 percent. Thats why I like to do cardio in the morning before my first meal. I was just wondering why MrMention(sp?) told me to try to a speed of 2.5 rather then the 4.0? Any help?


sorry wasnt around to answer you but Precisely bro... 4.0 is damn near running and we all know running burns muscle. The slow the better in terms of preserving muscle. I usually go 2.5 for 1 hour.

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## MrMent1on

Damn near if not every company makes their BCAA version. go to you local GNC store and you will have so many choices.
BCAA Stack contains the "perfect", scientifically-proven ratios of BCAAs and glutamine that are the most important amino acids for athletes who are dieting or training. Among other functional benefits, BCAAs and glutamine help increase protein synthesis, *reduce muscle breakdown*, enhance recovery, and boost your immune system.

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## SPIKE

> Nearly on to page three Bro.


I'll get us there, I promise.

Seems like most agree on AM cardio on an empty stomach correct? OK now what about the downside? LBM loss, how much and is it worth, any personal feedback from anyone?

I think this will be a great reference thread b/c I always see so many new threads relating to this very topic. Page 3 here we come Bap.

__________________________________________________ ________

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## SPIKE

> do you think that instead of burning fat since your glycogen levels are low, your body will actually produce cortisol while in a fasted state and doing cardio, that will in turn lead to muscle loss.


I was hoping Webb was going to elaborate more on this, that's why I kind of Edged you on in my second post on this thread Webb.


Now here comes the wrench just when we thought we had it all solved. In the morning cortisol levels are high upon rising. The olny thing thats going to bring that down is eating as when insulin is released it will inhibit the release of cortisol. That's why so many like to inject LR3 and/or Slin in the AM. So what do you think is going to happen after you perform your 30+ minutes on an empty stomach with cortisol levels screamingly high? You guessed it, LBM is going to be taking quite a hit.

Sure we all want to jump on that treadmill or whatever we use and think that triglycerides are rushing to the blood and being relased for fuel. Sure we all want to think that we're losing excessive BF while doing this, but sorry to say but there is always a dark side. That dam teeter totter is always creaping somewhere. Fat-LBM Fat-LBM Fat-LBM they keep going back and forth, back and forth. Dont get me wrong, yielding 3500kcal per pound, Fat is a great source of energy. It's just how to get it in the blood and off our muscle.

I gotta run, curious to see where this is at when I return  :AaGreen22:

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## WEBB

so then taking a low dose of slin in the morning before your cardio will help stop the cortisol release, but if you take slin and dont get the carbs you need you go into hypoglycemic shock or into a coma. 

i am so confused...i feel like a blind fag at a weiner roast!!!

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## Big Bapper

No dont take slin before carido, yes you will go into Hypoglycemic shock for sure or get dam close to it, too close for comfort. Think Jay is trying to say thats why bodybuilders use slin in the morning is because thats when cortisol levels or at there highest not before carido.

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## SPIKE

> thats why bodybuilders use slin in the morning is because thats when cortisol levels or at there highest not before carido.


That and to keep this thread going  :AaGreen22:  .

There's always a flip side Bap. This is one of those topics that will just keep going and going and going. There are too many variables and obstacles whichever route we take. Bottom line, do what works for you. Here's what I have done in the past and has worked well for me:

*When I"m trying to drop some BF:*
20-30min PWO after each and every W/O. I take in some BCAA's with my last meal before my training session and have my PWO shake in my locker ready to go. For me that has proven to drop BF% while maintaining _most_ LBM. I started this 6 weeks ago after cleaning up my diet and have dropped 2% but have also dropped about 6lbs. If you do the math LBM hasnt budged but I"m also on a decent AAS cycle. So as far as the outcome, I'll take it but was hoping for more.

*When I"m really trying to shed that last bit of stubborn BF:*
When I can (typically 3-4X a week) I'll perform a moderate to fast pace walk for 20-25 min getting my heart rate to about 135 or so. That's about 62% of Max HR but its just enough to pull from fat stores and not burn any LBM. Then again an additional 20-30min PWO at that very same pace maybe a little bit higher. All AM cardio on an empty stomach and I make sure to have a solid Pro/Fat meal right before bed. I take in about 3g of Vitamin C along with my other vitamins as I've read studies that 3-5g of Vit C can lower Cortisol lelves. I spread it throughout the day taking my last 1g tab with my nighttime meal.

*Note:* This is what has worked for me, results will vary with everyone. The best bet, if possible, is to have your BF measures weekly or EOW at the least. That will break down exact measurements on what is going and what is staying.

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## Random

I dont know what you guys think of David Barr but heres what he says 

"We should never be completely fasted. As soon as you're protein starved, you start breaking down muscle. Throw a catabolic activity like cardio on top of that and you're begging to waste away. Fortunately, it's not too difficult to prevent this muscle catabolism, because all we have to do is eat a little protein. When it comes to cardio, eating protein before will preserve muscle tissue without impacting fat loss."

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## MrMent1on

> I dont know what you guys think of David Barr but heres what he says 
> 
> "We should never be completely fasted. As soon as you're protein starved, you start breaking down muscle. Throw a catabolic activity like cardio on top of that and you're begging to waste away. Fortunately, it's not too difficult to prevent this muscle catabolism, because all we have to do is eat a little protein. *When it comes to cardio, eating protein before will preserve muscle tissue without impacting fat loss.*"


I just dont see this, the body is going to take whatever is present and burn it for fuel. here is my suggestion. Accept the fact that you are going to loose some LBM in order to get shredded and problem solved. would you rather save all your muscles and not be shredded enough or loose a bit of muscle and be shredded as hell????? 
Another suggestion would be get your body to the point where its very anabolic and burns fat like a furnace. where you would have no need for cardio... lol only very few bodybuilders have ever reached that level. example Dave Palumbo doesn't have the need for cardio.

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## SPIKE

> When it comes to cardio, eating protein before will preserve muscle tissue without impacting fat loss.


Here's how I feel about eating prior to cardio:




> Ok, so say you perform 30 minutes at your low to moderate walk, how many calories dose it say you burn? About 250 or so? Get ready b/c those initial 80kcal from your protein will be the first to go, then your stored glucose, then finally your fat. Hopefully by the time FFA's are being released into your blood stream you wont be cooling down.
> 
> As far as keeping muscle I"m sure it will, but you probably wont maximize fat loss throughout that duration.

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## SPIKE

> here is my suggestion. Accept the fact that you are going to loose some LBM in order to get shredded and problem solved.


The problem here Ment in that people dont want to face this. The only way I see to preserve as much LBM as possible is AAS. Even with the aid of AAS a caloric deficit combined with training and cardio may still chew away at some of that hard earned muscle.







> would you rather save all your muscles and not be shredded enough or loose a bit of muscle and be shredded as hell?????


That's the exact question people need to ask themselves before entering into this. Considering the forum we are in you guys know how important it is to come in completley dry for these shows. If one concerns himself too much about maintaining all LBM then they may not be as dry as the guys he's standing next too.

I dont compete nor would ever want to, just not my cup. But my W/O partner does and another one of my good friends. I"m constantly in the mix with all of this and always at shows. I've seens some shows (as I"m sure you'll all agree) where not the biggest guy always wins. Sometimes the smaller guy comes in so shredded to the bone where his rank will be higher then the guy next to him weighing 5lbs. more.

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## IBdmfkr

Opinions:

I have never purposely done cardio in my life and I want to start doing Cardio EOD on non-training days.. What's the most ideal way to plan meals around the cardio session? Similar to Workout session? (1hr before, PWO + PPWO)? Let me know as I am feeling I may start this today. Hope I don't regret this... lol

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## Random

Im not really that concerned with muscle loss...i was just giving some food for thought to the topic...for me i not lose much muscle at all even at very low carbs (50-75g) and doing shows completely natural..this summer will be my first show using extra stuff...ive started cardio early just to get in a mode but when i start dieting in 2 wks i will just be taking aminos before i do cardio then take my protein and carbs after....in the past ive preserved muscle simply by starting out the diet with higher carbs...

----------


## SPIKE

> I have never purposely done cardio in my life


I"m telling you BD, I never really have either. From what I have read we have similar body types, difficult to put on LBM but dam easy to cut up. I was always able to get down pretty low (6-7%) without the aid of cardio, workouts and diet were always enough. But after incorporating some light cardio the BF is just dripping off, I know the same will happen to you.








> I want to start doing Cardio EOD on non-training days..


Honeslty I think this is a horrible idea and I see many do this. The only way that I think you'll maximize the benefits of cardio on non-training days will be AM. Think about it, if your body is naturally digesting every 2-3 hours, are you really going to wait that long before its done to do your cardio? No way. Get up in the AM and perform a brisk walk at about 4.1-4.3. Just enough to get your HR up and sweat without eating away at that precious LBM. You're smart enough to monitor yourself and see what's staying and whats going.

----------


## IBdmfkr

Thx for response Jay, I'll start next week. I didn't want to mess with it during PCT for fear of losing muscle quickly. Let you know how it goes! 
Where are your calories etc when doing this, or can you actually burn fat during w/AM cardio with a high calorie diet? Opinions?

----------


## SPIKE

> I didn't want to mess with it during PCT for fear of losing muscle quickly.


I wouldnt want to either. Why dont you concentrate on retaining as much LBM as possible then branch of to cardio? Is it b/c summer is right around the corner?







> Where are your calories etc when doing this


My maintanance is around 3200 or so and I try to consume 4500+ bulking. Now that I'm dropping BF I'm doing so on about a 2200-2500 or so kcal diet. I need to drop this low to get my abs to really stick out.








> can you actually burn fat during w/AM cardio with a high calorie diet? Opinions?


ABSOLUTLEY!!! Reason for that is b/c regardless of what or how much you're eating throughout the day AM cardio will still be in a fasted state. Say you had your last meal/MRP right before bed. If you slept a solid 8 hours or so that food will be digested, especially a MRP as most do (including myself), SO when you step on the treadmill you'll already be in a catabolic state. Good for certain things, bad for others. I'm sure you can figure it out.

----------


## IBdmfkr

Good stuff Jay, I have a similar outlook on it.. Always nice to see your opinions etc.. You da man.

----------


## MrMent1on

you guys are still on this? your making me have second thoughts Jay. I usually get down to about 6%BF before doing any cardio. so I only did cardio 3 weeks out of a show. however I thought I'd eat more carolies this time around and also do more cardio . but now I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?

----------


## SPIKE

> Always nice to see your opinions etc.


You being a friend know that I love personal feedback. What ever I can give will be dealt out hoping it can be used by others, I just look for the same.

----------


## SPIKE

> your making me have second thoughts Jay


Don't let it buddy. You have a great track record and have always done well with what you're doing, keep it up.








> so I only did cardio 3 weeks out of a show.


That's nuts that you can get down that low and only rely on 3 weeks prior to showtime on cardio.







> but now I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?


Why would you want to do that  :Hmmmm:  . I'm assuming to preserve as much LBM as possible but dude 3 weeks out is already pushing it. I wouldnt push it any more then that but you know your body better then I do Ment. Seems 3 weeks in the past has worked for you, dam surprising too. It's awesome to see genetics out there like that.

----------


## SPIKE

So much for this huh guys? 




> Regardless on how thick this one gets I"m staying out of it. This will go pages and pages if allowed.


 :Smiley:

----------


## doctorherb

> I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?


personally, i dont do much cardio myself...Im just a BIG believer in diet being the best strategy for fat loss...I also keep my workouts high intensity/reps, which IMO is pretty good cardio in itself.

----------


## MrMent1on

> personally, i dont do much cardio myself...Im just a BIG believer in diet being the best strategy for fat loss...I also keep my workouts high intensity/reps, which IMO is pretty good cardio in itself.


Thats is correct and in turn you get to keep more LBM.... thats what I'm talking about doc.

----------


## SPIKE

> I also keep my workouts high intensity/reps, which IMO is pretty good cardio in itself.


I'll agree with this til my face is blue. The thing is Doc (and Mr. M) is that when performing these exercises, sure you're getting you HR up quickly. But it's for a short period of time. Everyone keep in mind that we are composed of 3 major energy supply systems. I'll try to break it down so its easier to read and understand. It's nothing of a break through but I feel this will be a great reference thread so I'll try to make it as easy to read as possible.

1. *Immediate energy*- It's energy supplied to perfrom an exercise of or less then 10 seconds. Something like a 1 rep max or even a 50 yard dash for most. This will use ATP + CP for energy.

2. *Short term energy*- It's energy supplied for an exercise of 1-2 minutes. Similar to what yuo're talking about Doc, drop sets, super sets. That will utilize ATP + CP + CARBS as energy .

3. *Long term energy*- Now this is where I'm trying to get into. This is energy that uses ATP+CP+CARBS+FAT as energy. This is where our cardio comes into play an IMO is crucial.

I love to use the word synergy and will have to use it again here. My performing exercises that will utilize all 3 of these energy sources one will achieve their best results. I understand how some need to do less and others need to do more cardio. I"m thankful to be in the group that will drop 2% in a month just by taking on 20min PWO every W/O.

This is getting a bit off the topic of AM cardio but it's a great overview of what our body is using to fule each exercise.


Note: CP= Creatine Phosphate.

----------


## SPIKE

> Thats is correct and in turn you get to keep more LBM...


Totally totally agree  :Thumps Up:  . But keep this stat in mind, ready? Since 1lb. of fat is made up of 3500kcal, one could fuel a 30 mile walk with that 1 measly lb. of fat  :Bbnoway:  . I couldnt believe it but after doing that math it works out, check it. So after you stop and think about that, you start thinking more and more about cardio. 

At your THR one will burn about 500-600kcal and cover 4 miles in distance. So multiply that by 7, you have 3500kcal and 28 miles. Sounds nuts but its mearly science.

Note: All these above numbers are on average and each person can apply it to themselves. For me, I fit right in there so I try to take advantage of every energy source to make sure I"m tapped and that fat gets to work.

----------


## Big Bapper

> you guys are still on this? your making me have second thoughts Jay. I usually get down to about 6%BF before doing any cardio. so I only did cardio 3 weeks out of a show. however I thought I'd eat more carolies this time around and also do more cardio . but now I think I should just wait as long as possible without cardio.. what do you think?



I know loads of Bodybuilders that leave carido out of there prep as long as possible. The reason being your body ajusts to a diet very quickly and you stop losing fat, now if you trow everything in at the start. Fat buners, carido, reduced caloric intake its very easy to get stuck near the end in regards to bodyfat loss. So I say clean up the diet, loose a bit, reduce the calories loose some more now there is only so far you can go with this as the body needs cals to maintain bodymass. So trow in some carido when the bodtfat loss stops. Then you still have your clen , ECA, T3 etc to fall back on if you stop loosing bodtfat.

----------


## MrMent1on

> I know loads of Bodybuilders that leave carido out of there prep as long as possible. The reason being your body ajusts to a diet very quickly and you stop losing fat, now if you trow everything in at the start. Fat buners, carido, reduced caloric intake its very easy to get stuck near the end in regards to bodyfat loss. So I say clean up the diet, loose a bit, reduce the calories loose some more now there is only so far you can go with this as the body needs cals to maintain bodymass. So trow in some carido when the bodtfat loss stops. Then you still have your clen, ECA, T3 etc to fall back on if you stop loosing bodtfat.


This i sexactly what I do bro.

----------


## SPIKE

> now if you trow everything in at the start. Fat buners, carido, reduced caloric intake its very easy to get stuck near the end in regards to bodyfat loss.


Of course, this is common sense. The body wants to constantly be in homeostasis, anything that throws it off it will want to adjust to return back. I totally agree with this Bap.

So what you do is take steps, everything is a process here. You can start cardio earlier and adjust that as well just like you do with workouts. For some 3 weeks out is crazy. For others (like some on this thread) can wait that long and even longer.









> So I say clean up the diet, loose a bit, reduce the calories loose some more now there is only so far you can go with this as the body needs cals to maintain bodymass. So *trow in some carido when the bodtfat loss stops*. *Then you still have your clen, ECA, T3 etc to fall back on if you stop loosing bodtfat*.


What if the BF loss never stops? What if it never really starts and all the "stubborn" fat won't budge? Then what do you do? Wait til 3 weeks out?  :Aajack:  . Too many factors here.

This is yet another one of those "to each is own" topics. That is relating to how long to wait til showtime to perform cardio. This thread really did take a turn. I told you we would get to 3 pages Bap!!! A little off topic but it made it.

For the ones that are waiting 3 weeks out thats saying to wait 3 weeks out to start your Clen and T3? Those can be implimented much earlier and cycled throughout.

----------


## MrMent1on

> Of course, this is common sense. The body wants to constantly be in homeostasis, anything that throws it off it will want to adjust to return back. I totally agree with this Bap.
> 
> So what you do is take steps, everything is a process here. You can start cardio earlier and adjust that as well just like you do with workouts. For some 3 weeks out is crazy. For others (like some on this thread) can wait that long and even longer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I usually start my clen 8 weeks out. not going to try to alter that as it worked well for me in the pass

----------


## MrMent1on

not sure if I want to use t-3 as its not sparing to muscles.. bastard. what would you suggest Jay? YEEEAAAHHH 1000 posts

----------


## SPIKE

> what would you suggest JAY?


Honestly T3 can be used with Clen achieving great success. I've seen studies where T3 upregulated beta 2 receptors in fat tissue. As you know clenbuterol and similar compounds downregulate this receptor, so using T3 with your clen will help stave off or reverse this downregulation. And since you're using Clen this will benefit you in Fatloss. Both from that little bit of info and from what you already know about T3.

The problem with T3 is what has already been stated previously in this thread. It doesnt discriminate and will go through whatever is has too. Combine that with this very topic of LBM and cadio and you can run into a problem.

Do what has worked for you as I dont have a definite answer on this one. I have used T3 (never above 25mcg) with great success. As of now I"m taking some time off of it and seeing what I can achieve without it. For you Mr. M, I see nothing wrong with what you have done in the past, has always worked. Tweak a few things <<cough>><<cardio>><<cough>> and take it from there buddy.

----------


## WEBB

i have started my diet, cardio, and clen at 8 weeks out in an attempt to try and get ready asap. not because i am behind, but i would like to be ready 2 weeks before my show than be right on time, or even behind in the last couple weeks and try and catch up when i am depleting or rtying to carb up. also if i am ready earlier it gives me a chance to play with carb/sodium loading. also i KNOW i am not one of those lucky few that can wait till 3 weeks out to start cardio.

----------


## MrMent1on

> Honestly T3 can be used with Clen achieving great success. I've seen studies where T3 upregulated beta 2 receptors in fat tissue. As you know clenbuterol and similar compounds downregulate this receptor, so using T3 with your clen will help stave off or reverse this downregulation. And since you're using Clen this will benefit you in Fatloss. Both from that little bit of info and from what you already know about T3.
> 
> The problem with T3 is what has already been stated previously in this thread. It doesnt discriminate and will go through whatever is has too. Combine that with this very topic of LBM and cadio and you can run into a problem.
> 
> Do what has worked for you as I dont have a definite answer on this one. I have used T3 (never above 25mcg) with great success. As of now I"m taking some time off of it and seeing what I can achieve without it. For you Mr. M, I see nothing wrong with what you have done in the past, has always worked. *Tweak a few things <<cough>><<cardio>><<cough>> and take it from there buddy*.


LMAO.. I've done well with 3 weeks out cardio. I'm a bit scared of more cardio. I've posted what I looked like i nmy last competition with 3 weeks out cardio. I'll post it here again so you guys can see. OK so maybe i'll take a chance and strech it out to 4 weeks.

----------


## SPIKE

> I'll post it here again so you guys can see. OK so maybe i'll take a chance and strech it out to 4 weeks.


Ment, if you can look like that 3 weeks out diong cardio then by all means keep it up. Everything works differently with everyone. What ever works for you buddy. Looks like you found what works for you so keep it up.

----------


## farrebarre

ive heard about nicotine before the am cardio makes it 50-60% harder to burn fat, something about high insulin levels or stuff like that, if anyone knows anything about this could u post it ??

----------


## chest6

Why would you want nicotine?

----------


## farrebarre

> Why would you want nicotine?


i use moist snuff and if what ive heard is correct then i wont use it before my cardio or might even consider quitting.

----------


## Big Bapper

> Of course, this is common sense. The body wants to constantly be in homeostasis, anything that throws it off it will want to adjust to return back. I totally agree with this Bap.
> 
> So what you do is take steps, everything is a process here. You can start cardio earlier and adjust that as well just like you do with workouts. For some 3 weeks out is crazy. For others (like some on this thread) can wait that long and even longer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :Icon Pissedoff:  WTF are you ranting on about this time. To answer your questions, even though you do not desvere a reply.  :Aajack:  Do you even take time to read posts before posting yourself you obviously need to learn a lesson in respect something you know nothing about. 

You say: What if the body never stops loosing fat ?? Of course it will :Aajack:  unless you are the type of body that does not store fat easily, you said yourself the body will always try to keep homeostasis.

You say: What if it never really starts and all the "stubborn" fat wont budge ?? Of course it will. YOUR ON A DIET !! :Aajack:  

ALL I AM TRYING TO SAY IS THE BODY WILL AJUST AND TRY TO KEEP HOMEOSATSIS. ITS WHAT KEEPS US ALIVE !! I WAS NOT SAYING START CARIDO, THERMOGENICS, CLEN AND EVERYTHING ELSE 3 WEEKS OUT BUT ADD IN THINGS WHEN THE BODY NEEDS THEM TO KEEP THE FAT COMING OFF OR YES YOU WILL GET STUCK.

----------


## Big Bapper

> Honestly T3 can be used with Clen achieving great success. I've seen studies where T3 upregulated beta 2 receptors in fat tissue. As you know clenbuterol and similar compounds downregulate this receptor, so using T3 with your clen will help stave off or reverse this downregulation. And since you're using Clen this will benefit you in Fatloss. Both from that little bit of info and from what you already know about T3.
> 
> The problem with T3 is what has already been stated previously in this thread. It doesnt discriminate and will go through whatever is has too. Combine that with this very topic of LBM and cadio and you can run into a problem.
> 
> Do what has worked for you as I dont have a definite answer on this one. I have used T3 (never above 25mcg) with great success. As of now I"m taking some time off of it and seeing what I can achieve without it. For you Mr. M, I see nothing wrong with what you have done in the past, has always worked. Tweak a few things <<cough>><<cardio>><<cough>> and take it from there buddy.


LMAO, I know many Bodybuilding competitors that never do cardio when prepping for a show and I would argue because of there insane fast metabolisms they would probably would loose LBM if they did. Just my opinion. :1laugh:

----------


## IBdmfkr

That will probably be me. We'll see this time next year.

----------


## SPIKE

> WTF are you ranting on about this time.


 :LOL:  , no rant. Difficult to understand ones motive when expressed in text rather then in person.








> something you know nothing about.


Know nothing about? Ouch. Bap, I've been training others for 6 years and have a degree in this field. My W/O partner wins BBing shows on a regular basis and all I do is talk about this stuff all day. To say I know nothing about this is rather intrusive. We all are open to our opinions though buddy..........



I want this to be a good reference tool for the future so I wont clog it up with useless posts.

----------


## farrebarre

> ive heard about nicotine before the am cardio makes it 50-60% harder to burn fat, something about high insulin levels or stuff like that, if anyone knows anything about this could u post it ??


jayhova do u know anything about this ??

----------


## SPIKE

> jayhova do u know anything about this ??


I cant really say I do FB.

I do remember researching a while back on cigarette smoke finding that it actually stimulated Norepinephrine turnover and thermogenesis in adipose tissue. But at the same time Nicotine does cause insulin resistance, that I'm sure of.

So no, I dont have a definite answer. Good topic to research on though.

----------


## farrebarre

> I cant really say I do FB.
> 
> I do remember researching a while back on cigarette smoke finding that it actually stimulated Norepinephrine turnover and thermogenesis in adipose tissue. But at the same time Nicotine does cause insulin resistance, that I'm sure of.
> 
> So no, I dont have a definite answer. Good topic to research on though.


aight thnx bro, then im gonna research this and ill post it when i find some good answers !

----------


## SPIKE

> im gonna research this and ill post it when i find some good answers !



Nice!!! Start a new thread on it, I'll keep an eye out for it.

----------


## Big Bapper

> , no rant. Difficult to understand ones motive when expressed in text rather then in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Know nothing about? Ouch. Bap, I've been training others for 6 years and have a degree in this field. My W/O partner wins BBing shows on a regular basis and all I do is talk about this stuff all day. To say I know nothing about this is rather intrusive. We all are open to our opinions though buddy..........
> ...


Know nothing about Respect for other peoples point of view. I have to spell everything out to you dont I, My only motive is to help others. I know you talk about this all day cause you are never off this site and know all your degrees and studies are good for this board because it gives a different point of view, food for thought I like to call it and for a while I was starting to respect that because of your academical knoweledge. But at the end off the day just like you did with the Ansomone thing you are talking and giving advice on things you have never experienced. Just cause it says it in a text book does not make it gospel. Nuff Said. :1seeyah:

----------


## IBdmfkr

You seem like the one with no regard to respect Bigbapper.. Take this shit to PM's and quit trashing a good thread. 

From my knowledge Jay speaks not only from personal experiences but from many others experiences from ppl who surround him. I'm not quite sure how you got your feelings hurt but bickering like this isn't the way to handle the situation.

(waiting for personal insults upon me now).

----------


## MrMent1on

Now Now play nice... you guys are both right. plus everyone has a right to his own opinion. remember what we are talking about here is not FACTS. but a theory. we may never know the answer, there probably is no correct answer. like we all know everyone's different. so its taylored to the individual. Enough on this thread.

----------


## Big Bapper

:No No:  I give people the respect they give me.

----------


## MrMent1on

> I give people the respect they give me.


Bro I know both you guys individually and both you guys are mad cool.. BB I really didnt think Jay meant any harm in anything he said. maybe you misunderstood or mistook his humor for diss.

----------


## Big Bapper

Maybe MrMent1on, were I come from when someone gives you a  :Aajack:  sign that means disrespect so if someone disrespects me I wont take it lying down. I WILL NEVER BACK DOWN FROM ANYONE OR ANYTHING IF I BELEIVE I AM RIGHT. IF I AM WRONG I WILL BE THE FIRST TO HOLD MY HANDS UP.

----------


## MrMent1on

> Maybe MrMent1on, were I come from when someone gives you a  sign that means disrespect so if someone disrespects me I wont take it lying down. I WILL NEVER BACK DOWN FROM ANYONE OR ANYTHING IF I BELEIVE I AM RIGHT. IF I AM WRONG I WILL BE THE FIRST TO HOLD MY HANDS UP.


Bro beileve me you just took it the wrong way. That was not at you, but at the statement and not the statement you made either but at the "what if! too much factor" statement bro. Just like he stated bro you cannot get an emotions from text/typed words bro, what happens in a situation like that, people will get the wrong perception.

----------


## Big Bapper

If thats what you say Mrment1on, No problem I will leave it at that. It will just take a bit of time for me to understand the way things work round here in regards to icons and smiles  :Aajack:  . You know the guy and his humor I dont. So if you say he was not being disrespectful I will take your word for it, thats good enough for me.

----------


## MrMent1on

> If thats what you say Mrment1on, No problem I will leave it at that. It will just take a bit of time for me to understand the way things work round here in regards to icons and smiles  . You know the guy and his humor I dont. So if you say he was not being disrespectful I will take your word for it, thats good enough for me.


Thanks a lot Bapper for understanding.

----------


## SPIKE

> Bro beileve me you just took it the wrong way. That was not at you, but at the statement and not the statement you made either but at the "what if! too much factor" statement bro.


Wow, I didnt even have to write anything you got it all Ment.







> Just like he stated bro you cannot get an emotions from text/typed words bro, what happens in a situation like that, people will get the wrong perception.


Exactly. As I stated earlier its difficult on how to interpret ones take via text.




Hey Bap, remember when you wrote this in Ments thread:



> Hold on now you want to go to his home ??
> 
> I think you could have a stalker MrMent1on.


And



> Thats worrying.........Maybe its the long hair that does it for ya Jay. LOL


That's like me getting all worked up and pissy about it  :LOL:  . I never intend to disrespect anyone on this board. Even if it comes at me first there is no sense jacking up postcount doing so (hypothetical situation). Sometimes I see others get all worked up and frustrated and I get a kick out of it. I try to live a stress free life, I know its impossible, that will be the day I get stressed out over a thread.

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

----------


## Big Bapper

> Wow, I didnt even have to write anything you got it all Ment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. As I stated earlier its difficult on how to interpret ones take via text.
> 
> ...


Well I am sure there is no need for anyone to loose a eye over this. !! LOL. 

All the things said in the Mrment1on Thread were only a joke. Really. I was just having a bit of fun so sorry if you thought it was personal. Bro at no stage was I getting stressed or fustrated over this thread. Only when I thought you were calling me a wanker :Aajack:  witch means to me dickhead, fool etc. I know now this is not the case. So lets put the whole thing behind us and get back to what this thread is about. At least your prediction that this tread would go for 3 pages came "true" and both of us was a big part of that happening. So you can thank me later. Thanks for the pm you could be right that us Irish are always up for a fight. I will reply in the morning.

----------


## SPIKE

> All the things said in the Mrment1on Thread were only a joke. Really. I was just having a bit of fun so sorry if you thought it was personal.


Nah buddy, I knew it was a joke and thats how I took it. No harm done.









> Only when I thought you were calling me a wanker


 :LOL:  Aw man I couldnt find the smiley with the little guy on his back kicking his legs laughing. Wanker!?!?!!?! I literally had to stop typing b/c I thought that was so funny. I dont think I've ever heard anyone call someone a wanker. I dont even know what that means  :LOL:  . OK OK I have to go man, this is too much. Wanker, LOL. What a funny term Bap.

All due respect, I wasnt calling you a wanker. LOL, I really cant stop laughing over here.

----------


## Big Bapper

Glad to here it !!

----------


## doctorherb

Cat Fight!! LOL yall chill :Smilie:

----------


## chest6

I liked the good discusion..got off topic  :Smilie:

----------


## SPIKE

> I liked the good discusion..got off topic


Yea it was going dam well. I think it gotten beaten to death though, input ran out.

----------


## chest6

Meh..I agree. Just seeing if I could squeeze one more out..but yeah I think everything that coulda been covered was covered. This should be stickied somewhere..maybe. Not a direct informative thread as the first post..but the whole thread has some great info

----------


## Jakspro

Lets bring this one back to topic....

So there are BBers who dont even include Cardio for the contest prep? and they come out fine? Do they just rely on lowering cals and clen , t3, ECA, juice?

For those who only add cardio till 4-3 weeks out, this is after lowering cals, cleaning things ups, and supps right? This would also mean that during bulking you wouldn't let yourself get to high in BF% in order to get on stage looking decent, correct?

And in that case you would solely rely on a clean bulk achieving only an increase in LBM, right?

Is it then possible to compete without using clen if you only clean bulk and stay with a low BF all year round, and employ cardio before clen to cut?

----------


## SPIKE

> Lets bring this one back to topic....
> 
> So there are BBers who dont even include Cardio for the contest prep? and they come out fine? Do they just rely on lowering cals and clen , t3, ECA, juice?
> 
> For those who only add cardio till 4-3 weeks out, this is after lowering cals, cleaning things ups, and supps right? This would also mean that during bulking you wouldn't let yourself get to high in BF% in order to get on stage looking decent, correct?
> 
> And in that case you would solely rely on a clean bulk achieving only an increase in LBM, right?
> 
> Is it then possible to compete without using clen if you only clean bulk and stay with a low BF all year round, and employ cardio before clen to cut?


BUMP this entire post for those that commented on this.

----------


## IBdmfkr

Great post, bump... I feel this subject has not fully been discussed, I'd like to see more input and experiences on the questions just asked above by current/previous competitors.

----------


## Big Bapper

> Lets bring this one back to topic....
> 
> So there are BBers who dont even include Cardio for the contest prep? and they come out fine? Do they just rely on lowering cals and clen, t3, ECA, juice?



Yes, I know Bodybuilders that use this approach.




For those who only add cardio till 4-3 weeks out, this is after lowering cals, cleaning things ups, and supps right? This would also mean that during bulking you wouldn't let yourself get to high in BF% in order to get on stage looking decent, correct?
[/QUOTE]




Yes this would mean being fairly lean in the off season and when the bodyfat stops comeing off, start cardio to give the metabolism a jolt.




And in that case you would solely rely on a clean bulk achieving only an increase in LBM, right?
[/QUOTE]




Yes well you could trow in a bit a junk in the off season to bulk, this is what I do as I find it hard to bulk on clean cals. But yes mainly clean Bodybuilding food and loads off it.




Is it then possible to compete without using clen if you only clean bulk and stay with a low BF all year round, and employ cardio before clen to cut?[/QUOTE]



Off course, I personally dont like the way clen makes me feel. So the only time I would use it is the last 6 weeks before a show and really have to force myself to take. In other words just deal with the side effects because of the show. I would never use it to cut in the off season.

----------


## WEBB

what happens if you rely on diet, and supps, and hold off on cardio till four weeks out because you stay lean and used a clean bulk. but then at 3 weeks you relize your behind so you add clen , then at 2 weeks your still behind so you start doing twice a day cardio. does this 
A) make you lose more LBM because your calories and everything are lower than at say 8 weeks?
B) would it not be better to start at 8 weeks out a be ready early? instead of just making it in time.
i understand you know your body better than anyone so you'll judge it properly, but human error is a bitch. i have always thought and been trained to go and get ready early, and then hold that condition for the last week or 10 days.

----------


## Big Bapper

A) Yes. But as you say you should know your own body, so at that stage you should be in shape(were you want to be at that stage). The reason people hold back on carido is to give themselves something to work with if the fat loss stops. Meaning if you trow every thing in at the start your body will adapt. But if you add thingds when you need them you can take your body to were you want too go IMO.

B) Of course its better to be ready early, then if so you could accually eat more towards the show. Depending on how you looked.

----------


## WEBB

i have only done one show, and i am preping for number two now, and i ahve started cardio, on an empty stomach, and clen also. my diet is tght. i wanna be ready at least 1 week out. last time i started cardio late and just made it, i had to 2x a day for a week or two and i think i sacrificed lbm in the process. so i am getting ready early and will try and avoid that

----------


## MrMent1on

> i have only done one show, and i am preping for number two now, and i ahve started cardio, on an empty stomach, and clen also. my diet is tght. i wanna be ready at least 1 week out. last time i started cardio late and just made it, i had to 2x a day for a week or two and i think i sacrificed lbm in the process. so i am getting ready early and will try and avoid that


Bro its all a learning process.. so from your experience last time, you realize you need to start cardio earlier. this experience might tell you that you did good or you started too early so now your third experience you will know exactly what works best for you, if you need 6 week instead of 8.. this is why we do a bunch of small shows in the beginning before moving up to a national level. you can never learn enough about your own body so we continue learning throughout our bodybuilding life.

----------


## SPIKE

> Everyone keep in mind that we are composed of 3 major energy supply systems. I'll try to break it down so its easier to read and understand. It's nothing of a break through but I feel this will be a great reference thread so I'll try to make it as easy to read as possible.
> 
> 1. *Immediate energy*- It's energy supplied to perfrom an exercise of or less then 10 seconds. Something like a 1 rep max or even a 50 yard dash for most. This will use ATP + CP for energy.
> 
> 2. *Short term energy*- It's energy supplied for an exercise of 1-2 minutes. Similar to what yuo're talking about Doc, drop sets, super sets. That will utilize ATP + CP + CARBS as energy .
> 
> 3. *Long term energy*- Now this is where I'm trying to get into. This is energy that uses ATP+CP+CARBS+FAT as energy. This is where our cardio comes into play an IMO is crucial.
> 
> I love to use the word synergy and will have to use it again here. My performing exercises that will utilize all 3 of these energy sources one will achieve their best results. I understand how some need to do less and others need to do more cardio. I"m thankful to be in the group that will drop 2% in a month just by taking on 20min PWO every W/O.
> ...



No one seemed to comment on the above material I listed on page 2. According to the majority of comments that followed, many still dont feel cardio is a prime necessity. I have to agree that we all differ in body types resulting to different protocols. But Is it safe to say that the above is dismissible since no one acknowledged it?

----------


## farrebarre

> No one seemed to comment on the above material I listed on page 2. According to the majority of comments that followed, many still dont feel cardio is a prime necessity. I have to agree that we all differ in body types resulting to different protocols. But Is it safe to say that the above is dismissible since no one acknowledged it?


i agree with u about the necessity of cardio. i never did any cardio couple of months ago but since i started i feel healthier(sp?) i dont lose my breath as easily lol plus my body odor(sp?)(sweat) improved ALOT, ill never stop my cardio ever again.

----------


## WEBB

> Bro its all a learning process.. so from your experience last time, you realize you need to start cardio earlier. this experience might tell you that you did good or you started too early so now your third experience you will know exactly what works best for you, if you need 6 week instead of 8.. this is why we do a bunch of small shows in the beginning before moving up to a national level. you can never learn enough about your own body so we continue learning throughout our bodybuilding life.


Exactly...that was kinda my point in a round about way...but i agree 100% it is different for everyone, and all we can do is offer general advice, and no matter what i cant see this one ever getting a concrete answer.

----------


## SPIKE

> Exactly...that was kinda my point in a round about way...but i agree 100% it is different for everyone, and all we can do is offer general advice, and *no matter what i cant see this one ever getting a concrete answer*.


Of course not, but I have to admit this was a good thread and feel there are other aspects that are yet to be exhausted. But I'm done, actually I myself am exhausted  :LOL:  .

Tons of studies that suggest one way is better then the other. Then there are studies contricting those studies, its an ongoing battle. Since this isnt much of a "study" board, I refrained from posting many. The personal feedback we got from some was useful and will come in handy for some if not many. I just wish more feedback was given to why certain ways worked .vs. others. It's always easy to say "this worked for me" then it becomes useful when its stated "this is what worked for me and this is why."

Overall, a *GREAT* reference thread for future use. I"m sure we'll see this one posted in other threads directing people this way.

----------


## Moe-mentum

So whats better?
Cardio on an empty stomach or what?








Kidding guys...lol

I love the 3rd post..."Regardless on how thick this one gets I"m staying out of it. This will go pages and pages if allowed."

You just couldn't stay out of it huh.

----------


## SPIKE

> So whats better?
> Cardio on an empty stomach or what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, goes to show you actually read the entire thing huh?  :LOL:  


It got too tempting, I had to give my $.03 (inflation).

----------


## Big Bapper

Yea me Too LOL

----------


## ~fuelforfire~

very interesting, and nice avatar there big bapper, trailer park boys kicks ass.

----------


## Liftnainez

some good info bros...

----------


## Anabolic CEO

Just a quick question???? Do you guys think cardio is good for you right when you wake up or late at night...I don't want to lose any Muscle......ROFL...LOL....hahahahah. This Damn thing is alread 4 pages, going on 5.

JayHova was right on this one.

What up JAY.

----------


## Anabolic CEO

Holy shit...i just realized i have 1G

----------


## SPIKE

> Just a quick question???? Do you guys think cardio is good for you right when you wake up or late at night...I don't want to lose any Muscle.


LOL, I was getting ready to answer it  :LOL:  










> What up JAY.


What's up buddy! Livin' life day by day and not trying to complain about it, that's it.

Feel free to comment if you feel it's needed.

----------


## WEBB

Jay, as i stated earlier i do cardio in the am on an empty stomach. I am now 5 weeks from m y comp and i think i need to start doing another cardio session. would you suggest after i train or after my last meal at night???

Maybe this will end up another 4 page discussion

----------


## kuad

one last question and sorry if you answered it before... hiit or ... you did mention a "brisk walk" 4.1 to 4.3(btw what is that?)

----------


## WEBB

it is the speed you are setting the treadmill to...and set it at like a 10 incline..

----------


## kuad

thanks!!! i usually use the cross trainer... any of you guys experiment with hiit?

----------


## WEBB

what is hiit???? is it a machine or something???

----------


## kuad

high intesity interval training... basically sprinting resting and sprinting again for 20min. shawn phillips talks about it on his web page and this thread...

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ight=sprinting

----------


## WEBB

i have never tried it but i have heard of what your talking about, try the training forum, you'll have better luck there. also check out my log in this forum called 8 weeks out, and you will see my training i follow most of the year...my diet is a different story :LOL:

----------


## SPIKE

> what is hiit????





> high intesity interval training... basically sprinting resting and sprinting again for 20min.


Correct, it's actually a very effective cardio regimen for most. IMO I wouldnt use it for AM cardio on an empty stomach but proves effective at other times.

----------


## SPIKE

> Jay, as i stated earlier i do cardio in the am on an empty stomach.


 :Thumps Up:  










> would you suggest after i train or after my last meal at night?


Definitely after you train. Reason being that by the time you are done training we hope that glycogen stores are tapped (similar to AM) and fat has now moved up to our next energy source. 20-30 min at a low THR (brisk walk as Kuad mentioned) should be enough. The reason I say should is b/c I'm not sure of the level on conditioning you're at. May need more, may need less.

You're gonna rock at your comp!!!!

----------


## Pinnacle

> Just a quick question???? Do you guys think cardio is good for you right when you wake up or late at night....


I do both,and start my cardio even before I start to reduce calories.We'll actually I never really have to reduce cals all that much since I use cardio to keep me lean,and it also allows me to eat much more food right up to comp date.I think alot of guys might lose muscle while dieting prior to a show because of the fact they let thier BF get out of control during the off season.If you stay rather lean(under 10%) during the off season you shouldn't have any problem cutting for a show in 12 weeks time frame.And if you do cardio all the way through your prep cycle ect(AM amd PM) you'll be able to eat alot of food and look incredibly full a week out from the show.Even put on muscle..how about them apples?

I'd go on,but I really hate typing :Smilie: 


~Pinnacle~

----------


## WEBB

Thanks for the encourgment Jay, i am going to start doing it at night after i train for thereasons you stated...also my conditioning is coming...but i feel i need to add the pm cardio because i am a little behind...i am losing roughly 4 pounds a week and have 5 weeks left, so that puts me close to 230. i can see my abs threough out most of the day, and i am still really full. but i wanna be ready early and be peeld down. 

Pinnacle, glad to see ya back, and i though you loved typing... :LOL:

----------


## SPIKE

> I think alot of guys might lose muscle while dieting prior to a show because of the fact they let thier BF get out of control during the off season.If you stay rather lean(under 10%) during the off season you shouldn't have any problem cutting for a show in 12 weeks time frame.


Hey Pinn remember our convo about me telling you about my W/O partner and his connects? Well, one thing that he stressed was that "_When in off season dont let your BF get out of control b/c when it comes time to lean down you'll lose too much muscle in effort to lean down. You're best bet is to bulk up but try not to let BF% get out of control, kind of like a lean bulk_."

There you go buddy. You stated it word for word as an Olympian competitor did.  :Thumps Up:  



Can you tell I like to type? I'm surprised you didnt add to this madness.

----------


## timtim

> Originally Posted by Jayhova
> Everyone keep in mind that we are composed of 3 major energy supply systems. I'll try to break it down so its easier to read and understand. It's nothing of a break through but I feel this will be a great reference thread so I'll try to make it as easy to read as possible.
> 
> 1. Immediate energy- It's energy supplied to perfrom an exercise of or less then 10 seconds. Something like a 1 rep max or even a 50 yard dash for most. This will use ATP + CP for energy.
> 
> 2. Short term energy- It's energy supplied for an exercise of 1-2 minutes. Similar to what yuo're talking about Doc, drop sets, super sets. That will utilize ATP + CP + CARBS as energy .
> 
> 3. Long term energy- Now this is where I'm trying to get into. This is energy that uses ATP+CP+CARBS+FAT as energy. This is where our cardio comes into play an IMO is crucial.
> 
> ...


i didnt read the entire thread but this is great info. i am bumping this late and you may have already discussed this but could you explain what you do. what exercise/exercises gets you in this state? what's your routine? thanks.

----------


## Big Bapper

> I do both,and start my cardio even before I start to reduce calories.We'll actually I never really have to reduce cals all that much since I use cardio to keep me lean,and it also allows me to eat much more food right up to comp date.I think alot of guys might lose muscle while dieting prior to a show because of the fact they let thier BF get out of control during the off season.If you stay rather lean(under 10%) during the off season you shouldn't have any problem cutting for a show in 12 weeks time frame.And if you do cardio all the way through your prep cycle ect(AM amd PM) you'll be able to eat alot of food and look incredibly full a week out from the show.Even put on muscle..how about them apples?
> 
> I'd go on,but I really hate typing
> 
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Great info Pinnacle sounds like a good prep program, I think for my next show I will clean up my diet 12 weeks out and add am and pm carido. Then I will always be able to reduce cals closer to the show if required.

----------


## SPIKE

> I am bumping this late.


That's quite alright, let's get it to page 5!!! What do you think of that Bap?  :7up:  











> what exercise/exercises gets you in this state?


Its a combination of several things Tim. Just get in there and try to combine diff movements and exercises. Not just the same 'ol 3-4 sets 6-8 reps blah blah blah.

You'll blast through your immediate energy source in no time then its on to short term. Drop sets, super sets, routines like that will not only still continue to build muscle but at the same time keep your HR up higher for a prolonged amount of time leading to more kcal burned. Not only that but this is where you want to clear out glycogen stores and move on to fat of energy. By this time hopefully you'll be finishing up an onto cardio where phase 3 will commence. Here is where you'll use ATP+CP+CARBS+*FAT* for energy. I'll bold the key word here for all to see  :Wink/Grin:  .












> what's your routine?


I dont have a set routine. I freestlye more this time of the year but try to stick to a basic pattern. Enough of an unaccustomed stimulus in order for my body to not adapt and to continue gaining/losing, however you want to word it  :AaGreen22:  .

The last 3 weeks was heavy weight in the 5-6 rep range finishing with a few drop sets. Starting this week will be moderate weight in a higher rep range and more core movements. Varies and varies and varies and varies. We have waaaaaaaaay too many options to ever get stagnant in our workouts.

----------


## timtim

thanks for the explanation. interesting.

----------


## Big Bapper

[QUOTE=Jayhova]That's quite alright, let's get it to page 5!!! What do you think of that Bap?  :7up:  





Right on Jay.......Lets get ready too rumble. :7up:  Only Joking bro I have had not much time to follow the thread lately or any thread for that matter and could not beleive that it has continued(I thought it was dead). So will just sit this one out......but will be watching when I can and questioning if needed.  :Wink/Grin:  





.

----------


## kuad

jay you said more orless depending on the level on conditioning... i have some stubborn love handles and lower belly fat, so should i do the brisk walk after workout for longer than 30 min?

----------


## kuad

page 5?

----------


## Brent_G

Bookmarked! good work guys.

----------


## SPIKE

> i have some stubborn love handles and lower belly fat, so should i do the brisk walk after workout for longer than 30 min?


"Stubborn" BF is the hardest to get rid of. All that nasty saturated fat that you/we have consumed over the years is solid at room temp. Therefore it just sits and doesnt want to budge. That is the last fat to go and to get rid of that you really need to crank in that cardio once in a carb depleted state. 

So for you, start with that 30min PWO brisk walk (3.8-4.2 or so) and take it from there. You know my stance on AM cardio and that will aid greatly as well. Very difficult to really get deep into this b/c there are too many variables. I for one typically take 60-90 minutes with someone on a sit down before a cardio prescription is dealt. You'll never get a quick answer from me Kuad, sorry.

Note: Not all saturated fat is solid at room temp. SO before any of you wise asses jump all over that I'll make a note of it  :LOL:

----------


## kuad

jay, you have a pm

----------


## the hulkster

the theory is that doing cardio on an empty stomach, an individual will reach glycolysis faster and in turn then reach fat oxidation faster, I have been apart of studies for such things and this is not always the case. So I think jesus i mean jayhova is right, find what you think works and then keep doing it.

----------


## Equiguns

Can I point out something? You guys speak of this stuff as though it happens instantaneously...remember these processes happen over time...therefore keeping your body in a anti-catabolic/anabolic state will, in general, keep you out of trouble...doig cardio on an empty stomach for 30 minutes does not mean your body will go eating all it's muscle. Your body has stored energy in different forms, glycogen, fats, any other contents...when you do 30 minutes of cardio and burn (very few) calories in respect to the big picture, you will not eat muscle and lose pounds of muscle. Worst case scenario would be a couple of grams of literal, actual, muscle tissue from your body every work-out. Glutamine can be used throughout the day, and not just before the workout...glutamine is has been shown to help save muscle...that doesnt mean you have to take it RIGHT before the workout, you can do your workout and take the glutamine 15-30 minutes after the cardio. Think about it, after a heavy weight workout, you want to take some protein to feed your muscle (to make them grow) but you think they are growing huge? no, they are fed milligrams out of the 50 gram shake you take PWO. Believe me, if the body soaked up everything and expelled everything exactly how some poeple think we would all have perfect bodies. I would be drinking 50 gram sshakes every day and gaining 40-50 grams of actual muscle fibers in the muscle i worked out that day...not really, although I can keep dreaming. DOing morning cardio is fine, just take protein through out the day at proper intervals (depending on the protein anywhere from 30 minutes-7 hours) and eat an appropriate diet. Then take glutamine and clen if possible for anti-catabolic effects. And DONT WORRY so much, the human body is not as critical as we are! look at the big picture with more emphasis then the hourly physiological time-schedules.

----------


## kuad

interesting......

----------


## SPIKE

> Can I point out something? You guys speak of this stuff as though it happens instantaneously


Can you elaborate on "you guys" for us. Since we just hit 5 pages it would be nice to keep it going. 

Thanks buddy..............

----------


## WEBB

welcome back jay....i am poting new pics fom tonigh tin my thread later so check em out...the cardio worked wonders and i am dialed in now, just need to fine tune my sodium and carb a bit and i will be spot on...


also i am going to get my o meg a 3, at the grocery store thursday... :LOL:

----------


## WEBB

like i said before i will elaborate more now i have some time...i started this thread because i was worried about losing muscle while i was doing cardio on an empty stomach and though if i ate smoething first it would be better off....what a mistake that could have been....Jay got me on the right track, and i am down a total of 46 pounds of water and fat in 6 weeks, now it wasnt all Jay and his cardio, i am on a very strict low carb diet, but i kept my protien high and ran a dose of test to keep my muscles there...all i can say is he is with out a doubt 100% correct on cardio on an empty stomach...it is by far the best way to lose that excess fat....

Thanks again big fella...i win own the stage in 18 days and it is because of your cardio advice i will be dry and ripped...

----------


## SPIKE

> Thanks again big fella...i win own the stage in 18 days and *it is because of your cardio advice* i will be dry and ripped...


I did nothing but recite what I have learned along the years. All through schooling, researching and personal experience I was able to give you whatever I thought was best. In the end you did all the work Webb.

Keep me in mind when you win this show. Pics are always appreciated buddy :-)

----------


## WEBB

i did do all the work, but i could have done the work wrong and not been where i am now.....wit hyour help i did what was right and got me on track and dialed in....

----------


## IBdmfkr

Now win that shit, you have no excuses now  :Wink:

----------


## WEBB

my thoughts exactly...it is mine to lose....and i wont lose...

----------


## SPIKE

> ...it is mine to lose....and i wont lose...


For some reason after I read that I heard the Rocky anthem in my mind. Dennnaaaannaaaa denanaaaaaaaaa de de denana dennanananaaa denaaaaaaaaaa

----------


## svarturer

Dont you feel like shit after your AM empty stomach cardio ?

----------


## SPIKE

> Dont you feel like shit after your AM empty stomach cardio ?



Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess this all depends. 

If I had enough sleep and went to bed right after my Pro/Fat Shake, I tend to feel great during and after AM cardio. It's those mornings that I wake up being out all night where I may be dragging a bit throughout but never after. After my oats and breakfast I'm usually ready to take on the day.

----------


## jstanier

> Dont you feel like shit after your AM empty stomach cardio ?


I always feel great - metabolism has risen and I'm ready to go.

----------


## svarturer

I tried this a couple of times always made me sick! I started eating oatmeal first thing in the morning......
Maybe i should try again....

Do you leave any time before eating after the cardio session ?

----------


## Bigun

The common practice is to avoid carbs for an hour or more post cardio session

----------


## svarturer

> The common practice is to avoid carbs for an hour or more post cardio session


Do you eat pro/fat meal straight after your cardio ?

----------


## theforce3169

> The common practice is to avoid carbs for an hour or more post cardio session


I've read somewhere on here that one of the most important times to eat is 15 minutes after you workout

I usually drink a protein/fat shake right after then eat about 2 hours later

----------


## IBdmfkr

I see no reason why complex carbs couldn't be injested after a morning cardio sesson. I'd probably just stick with my normal breakfast.
Eggs/whey, Oats, flax.

----------


## WEBB

after cardio i have a shake then after i get home 15minutes later i have 10 eggwhites or turkey, and 1/2-3/4 oats...that is the best way to go imo...i do not know why you would not want low GI complex carbs after...

----------


## SPIKE

> ...i do not know why you would not want low GI complex carbs after...


Me neither Webb, makes no sense to me at all.

Why wouldnt anyone want a readily available source of replenishment (carbs)rather then having to break down another Macro into the same form to get it?


Can anyone above give some reasons or state exactly what they read/heard? I"m always open to new suggestions with scientifc reasoning.

----------


## chest6

> I've read somewhere on here that one of the most important times to eat is 15 minutes after you workout
> 
> I usually drink a protein/fat shake right after then eat about 2 hours later


we are talking about cardio here, not weights

----------


## chest6

> Me neither Webb, makes no sense to me at all.
> 
> Why wouldnt anyone want a readily available source of replenishment (carbs)rather then having to break down another Macro into the same form to get it?
> 
> 
> Can anyone above give some reasons or state exactly what they read/heard? I"m always open to new suggestions with scientifc reasoning.


Yeah me too? I would never ever have a pro/fat meal instead of a pro/carb after cardio. It just seems logical.

----------


## SPIKE

> It just seems logical.


That's what I thought brotha................

----------


## edgarr

WOW great post. I am looking to lose about 2-3% BF over the next 10-12 weeks. I am starting to do cardio first thing in the am on an empty stomach 4-5 days a week and then eating a pro/carb meal about a half hour after. Then after my workout 2-3 days a week I will do 20-25 mins of low intensity cardio as well. My question is, my PWO shake always had gultamine and creatine in it along with whey and dex. Should I take the creatine and gultamine after my work out but before my cardion or is ok to take it all after both w/0 and cardion?

----------


## novastepp

ok just bumping this because i just read the entire thing and i have a few comments and a few questions that i can't type now because i have to get back to work. but i will be posting this evening and making this thread a whole lot longer.

----------


## SPIKE

> Should I take the creatine and gultamine after my work out but before my cardion or is ok to take it all after both w/0 and cardion?


Just continue taking it with your PWO shake after your entire session is done. Do you cycle the creatine or use it all the time? 

Feel free to post a new thread on this Edgar, that way it will free up some space on here allowing some to follow it easier. If you do that copy and paste the link here, I"ll check it out.

----------


## SPIKE

> i will be posting this evening and making this thread a whole lot longer.



I'm ready  :7up:

----------


## edgarr

> Just continue taking it with your PWO shake after your entire session is done. Do you cycle the creatine or use it all the time? 
> 
> Feel free to post a new thread on this Edgar, that way it will free up some space on here allowing some to follow it easier. If you do that copy and paste the link here, I"ll check it out.



I am taking creatine right now because I am just coming off a SD cycle and wanted to add it to my PCT. I usally cycle it just cause I feel my self getting bloated if I take it too long. Why what would you reccomend?

I may post a new log with my cutting progress somewhere here on this site.

----------


## SPIKE

> I am taking creatine right now because I am just coming off a SD cycle and wanted to add it to my PCT. I usally cycle it just cause I feel my self getting bloated if I take it too long. Why what would you reccomend?


Exaclty what you're doing. From the way you worded it I was under the impression that you were taking it all the time rather then cycling it. Some hold more water then other on Creatine so the bloat will vary.














> I may post a new log with my cutting progress somewhere here on this site.


Here's the link to where you'd post your progress:

http://forums.steroid.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

----------


## novastepp

ok so after a day of shithouse work. i am back, and my questions arose while reading these 5 pages of pure knowledge. 

1. i understand you have covered many aspects of CUTTING cardio. but what about bulking? after about 6 weeks of bulking, no matter how clean i keep it, my fat gains begin. now i would ASSume that cardio early morning would be best because when bulking you need nutrition ASAP after training. so would that eliminate PWO cardio as a fat burner/maintainer?

2. also, what about in regards to cortisol reducers? if you are using a cortisol reducer (not an anabolic ) would taking that before bed and then pre morning cardio help alleviate that rapid cortisol release many talked and worried about in the previous pages?

3. after cardio (be it am on empty, be it am after BCAA's or glutamine, or be it PWO) would a pro/fat meal REALLY NOt stop lipolysis and allow for further fat burn in normal activity proceeding that cardio? i am also assuming that we are talking about low/moderate cardio for a period of time and that no one will be running a sprint routine PWO or in the am with an empty tank.

4. and i do remember reading about nighttime nutrition being brought up a couple of times, but my specific question is... i know that fat intake (mainly healthy fats) can help begin lipolysis (fat being broken down and released into the bloodstream to be used as fuel)...SO would having a whey/flax shake mid sleep (whether cutting or bulking) help to make morning cardio more efficient? my logic says then....

1. prebed take a cortisol reducer and have a pro/fat meal...
2. then mid-night sleep, have a whey/flax shake...
3. upon waking take a cortisol reducer...(ECA making this even more efficient because of its anticatabolic properties and the further release of FFA's upon caffeine absorption...but we'll leave that to cutting...)
4. then post cardio to have a serving of BCAA's and a scoop of whey (they help start protein synthesis by themselves!)
5. 15-20 minutes later have a pro/fat meal to continue lipolysis and some potential fat burning in the next couple of hours before your next meal.

this is how i see it being most effective, but cuss, discuss and have at it...

-nOva  :Owned:

----------


## SPIKE

> ok so after a day of shithouse work. i am back, and my questions arose while reading these 5 pages of pure knowledge. * Let's do it brotha.........*
> 
> 1. i understand you have covered many aspects of CUTTING cardio. but what about bulking? after about 6 weeks of bulking, no matter how clean i keep it, my fat gains begin. now i would ASSume that cardio early morning would be best because when bulking you need nutrition ASAP after training. so would that eliminate PWO cardio as a fat burner/maintainer? *"Bulking" is a loosely used term that we all play with. It can mean "put on as much weight as possible" and it could also mean "somewhat of a lean bulk and try to put on as much LBM with minimal fat." We will have to narrow it down before major steps can be taken. Since I"m ASSuming that you run more of a "clean bulk" I would vary the cardio depending on your lifestlye and goals. In order to not put on that fat you speak about 20min PWO and/or AM might suffice. It's more of a personalized answer to that one.*
> 
> 2. also, what about in regards to cortisol reducers? if you are using a cortisol reducer (not an anabolic ) would taking that before bed and then pre morning cardio help alleviate that rapid cortisol release many talked and worried about in the previous pages? *Dam it!! I had some studies stating that 3g of Vit C prior to bedtime really helped with cortisol levels. This is tricky b/c to lower the levels you would need to eat something in the AM. Now if you plan on doing AM cardio then that can have a negative effect on LBM. This somewhat corralates to the previous question leading you more in the direction on PWO cardio rather then risking LBM in the AM.*
> 
> 3. after cardio (be it am on empty, be it am after BCAA's or glutamine, or be it PWO) would a pro/fat meal REALLY NOt stop lipolysis and allow for further fat burn in normal activity proceeding that cardio? i am also assuming that we are talking about low/moderate cardio for a period of time and that no one will be running a sprint routine PWO or in the am with an empty tank. *So no carbs PWO after cardio? Is that what you're saying Nova? Strictly Pro/Fat?*
> 
> 4. and i do remember reading about nighttime nutrition being brought up a couple of times, but my specific question is... i know that fat intake (mainly healthy fats) can help begin lipolysis (fat being broken down and released into the bloodstream to be used as fuel)...SO would having a whey/flax shake mid sleep (whether cutting or bulking) help to make morning cardio more efficient? * I try to avoid waking up mid sleep. I see so many talk about drinking shakes mid sleep but the last thing I'd want to do is interrupt REM sleep. I'd take the Flax/whey prior to bedtime and attmept to get in a full nights rest.* 
> ...



*Looks good to me Nova....*

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## novastepp

1. & 2. so i do know that some LBM might be at risk when doing cardio in the am on empty. but that is risking LBM that is already present. do you think that PWO cardio might scrifice LBM gains? that is what i'm getting at. which is worse? risking losing some mass or losing some gains? and which payoff would be less of a shot to your presence. and yes clean bulk would be correct. but personally i am going to try to up my cals 1000+ over maint. and add cardio 4 days a week, to help with any fat gain that may occur.

3. yes i am talking pro/fat because of 2 reasons. carbs will blunt the lipolysis if i am correct, and fats allow for an increased release of FFA's so that would make sense to me.

4. i underdtand not wanting to lose sleep (which is the biggest factor in recover IMO), but again which is the bigger trade off? being fasted, or waking up mid sleep? IMO i would agree that while bulking or adding LBM, straight sleep would be very beneficial and should not be taken for granted. however, during a cutting phase, fasting can lead to extra LBM loss especially in an already lean state. so i might think that the fat would help release FFA's and prevent loss of LBM by fasting.

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## spound

> 1. & 2. so i do know that some LBM might be at risk when doing cardio in the am on empty. but that is risking LBM that is already present. do you think that PWO cardio might scrifice LBM gains? that is what i'm getting at. which is worse? risking losing some mass or losing some gains? and which payoff would be less of a shot to your presence. and yes clean bulk would be correct. but personally i am going to try to up my cals 1000+ over maint. and add cardio 4 days a week, to help with any fat gain that may occur.
> 
> *3. yes i am talking pro/fat because of 2 reasons. carbs will blunt the lipolysis if i am correct, and fats allow for an increased release of FFA's so that would make sense to me.*
> 4. i underdtand not wanting to lose sleep (which is the biggest factor in recover IMO), but again which is the bigger trade off? being fasted, or waking up mid sleep? IMO i would agree that while bulking or adding LBM, straight sleep would be very beneficial and should not be taken for granted. however, during a cutting phase, fasting can lead to extra LBM loss especially in an already lean state. so i might think that the fat would help release FFA's and prevent loss of LBM by fasting.


Dude....Nova....Post cardio lipolysis is HIGHLY overrated bro. Think about how fast your heartrate drops back down after cardio... Your body is constantly trying to stay at equilibrium, meaning that is does everything possible to get the body back to being that way after cardio as fast as possible. I dont have any studies backing this up, but I have PERSONAL EPXERIENCE, which IMO is most important. I have been eating carbs for breakfast (right after my am cardio ) and having my PWO shake (with carbs) right after my PWO cardio, and I have lost 40lbs and kept DAMN NEAR ALL MY STRENGTH. My diet has been perfect...I am 2wks out right now and almost dialed in. Take it for what it's worth, but you DEFINATELY need carbs after your PWO cardio.....ESPECIALLY WHILE BULKIND (trying to put on muscle). 
PERIOD

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## SPIKE

> 1. & 2. so i do know that some LBM might be at risk when doing cardio in the am on empty. but that is risking LBM that is already present. do you think that PWO cardio might scrifice LBM gains? that is what i'm getting at. which is worse? risking losing some mass or losing some gains? and which payoff would be less of a shot to your presence. and yes clean bulk would be correct. but personally i am going to try to up my cals 1000+ over maint. and add cardio 4 days a week, to help with any fat gain that may occur. *Can never be too positive on this one but depending on the intensity of your training PWO may sacrifice a bit more. I cant see a definitve answer to that one as both studies and personal runs (not to mention tons of Trial and error with clients). But the thing with AM is that cortisol levels will be high (we're trying to take care of that) but on the bright side you'll be tapping almost immediately into fat stores from the get go. With PWO it will depend on how hard you trained but for the most part your glucose stores will be tapped and onto fat-----we hope.
> 
> Sorry but I cant give a definite on this one. I'vehad too many mixed results with other people and cant give a definite. It's one of those plug and play moves.* 
> 
> 3. yes i am talking pro/fat because of 2 reasons. carbs will blunt the lipolysis if i am correct, and fats allow for an increased release of FFA's so that would make sense to me. *Ahh yes this has been covered a ton of times in the diet forum. We've both seen it over and over. Kind of touches on the "You need fat to burn fat" saying. Some prefer to go Pro/Fat for the reasons mentioned. I have tried that and had a very difficult time retaining LBM. I really felt that without the carbs PWO my muscles were still deprived and needed and immediate source of Fuel (Carbs). 
> 
> This gets tricky b/c only adding 1000kcals over maintenance is going to be difficult to put on a lot of size. I"m not exactly sure how much you're looking to put on but those extra 1000kcal may go dam fast if you're training really hard, which I"m sure you are Nova.* 
> 
> 4. i underdtand not wanting to lose sleep (which is the biggest factor in recover IMO), but again which is the bigger trade off? being fasted, or waking up mid sleep? IMO i would agree that while bulking or adding LBM, straight sleep would be very beneficial and should not be taken for granted. however, during a cutting phase, fasting can lead to extra LBM loss especially in an already lean state. so i might think that the fat would help release FFA's and prevent loss of LBM by fasting.


*If concentrating on bulking I'd really try to get a full nights sleep. Adding the shake mid sleep can help in the fasted state expecially when performing AM cardio and what not, but you have to weigh out your options. If you're bulking then you're pretty much hitting it dam hard and trying to fatigue your muscles as much as possible. Consuming a bedtime shake can be enough to keep the busy throughout the night (depends on shake).*





See you know what it is here Nova, there are too many personal decisions here. As stated above I've seen tremendous results for some with a regimen and others fail with the same exact regimen. Trial and error is something we have to do in this lifestlye we live. Obviously the more concrete answers we have can help but what works for me may do nothing for you. 

I like the way you think, but sometimes I think so hard that it confuses me. If there's one thing I've learned from going to school so much. It's not that the more you go to school the more you know, its the more you go to school the more you realize you dont know. I read studies all the time that will contridict a previous study, it's an ongoing battle. I know thats not what you're looking for but thats the best I could do, sorry.

I tried throughout the previous 5 pages to give as much as I knew and to what would work and why. At least from my perspective..................

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## novastepp

Jayhova, you are a river of knowledge man, always flowin'. i appreciate your commensta dn i wasn't asking you for answerts i was just sking rhetorically for debate. i always have carbs after cardio, but i was just stating what i think would be sensable, but doesn't necessarily work for me. Spound you're in there too, i agree that post cardio lipolysis is overrated as well. now when i bulk i will be experimenting with what i feel works for me. 4 weeks just about 500 cals over 4 weeks of 1,000 cals over. and so on. justmixing things up and judging energy levels, recovery time and on and on. because i'm new to the game... i don't really have a set in stone way that works for me yet, because i haven't tried many concepts. i too read and read about things and one thing will contradict another and i feel like sometimes when i even slightly combine macros i am going to put on fat because i think "wait, isn't this bad" and i then assume a placebo effect will take place... it sucks.

in any case, i love to debate about things and learning is a wonderful hobby. one which i hope to be involved with my entire life.

"the greatest knowledge is knowing that you know nothing" -Socrates (thank you Giants11)

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## Random

Ok guys heres some more discussion: At what point does cardio become detrimental? For example, currently i take 10 grams of aminos before i do my morning cardio...now i have no knowledge on the absorption rate of those and how long they keep amino blood levels stable, what kind of a window do i have assuming im doing moderate intensity cardio before it would start breaking down muscle tissue? Im currently doin 60 minutes in the morning, empty stomach.....

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## SPIKE

> i was just sking rhetorically for debate.






> in any case, i love to debate about things and learning is a wonderful hobby.



Too many people corrolate debate and argue as similar terms. If we could all have some friendly debates every once in a while I"m sure they would produce some real eye openers. We're all trying to learn here Nova Nova.........

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## SPIKE

> At what point does cardio become detrimental?


Detrimental as far as LBM loss? That cant be answred, it will vary upon the individual. We could although set some guidelines as far as how duration/type/intensity will have a negative effect on LBM. Combine that with diet and you can conclude some numbers to play with. 















> i take 10 grams of aminos before i do my morning cardio


BCAA's or Aminos?

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## Random

BCAA's....

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## SPIKE

> BCAA's....


 :Thumps Up:

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## IBdmfkr

Should BCAA's be taken again after AM cardio with the first meal IYO?


Btw, I have the BCAA mixture 2:1:1 from Trueprotein and find it utterly disgusting to take by itself, lol... Any suggestions?

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## spound

> Should BCAA's be taken again after AM cardio with the first meal IYO?
> 
> 
> Btw, I have the BCAA mixture 2:1:1 from Trueprotein and find it utterly disgusting to take by itself, lol... Any suggestions?


I get mine from TP as well and they do taste like shit, I jsut put a tsp under my tongue and quickly wash it down with 2 shots of water.

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## spound

> Ok guys heres some more discussion: At what point does cardio become detrimental? For example, currently i take 10 grams of aminos before i do my morning cardio...now i have no knowledge on the absorption rate of those and how long they keep amino blood levels stable, what kind of a window do i have assuming im doing moderate intensity cardio before it would start breaking down muscle tissue? Im currently doin 60 minutes in the morning, empty stomach.....


I think the biggest determining factor to this is whether or not the athlete is natural. I believe it is VERY hard to become "catabolic" from cardio while on AAS, however, a natural athlete can easily lose mass from cardio especially long duration cardio after a fast. Just think about someof those sprinters who run gear...their workouts are EXTREMELY intense and would probably make one of us feel like muscle was diminishing off our bones, but they still grow year after year...LIke Jayhova said though it would depend on the person, diet, intensity, duration etc. I feel that 1hr on an empty stomach is A-OK for someone on gear....dont worry, your fine. I am doing 1hr twice per day right now (2wks out) and am losing no muscle or strenght...BUT MY DIET IS SPOT ON.

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## SPIKE

> Should BCAA's be taken again after AM cardio with the first meal IYO?


I think it all depends on the AA prolife of your PWO nutrition. IMO, when I"m doing PWO and/or AM cardio I consume BCAA's prior to the W/O and with PWO nutrition. I dont take them right before cardio, I'll take them on my way to the gym before my w/o. Your bosy will want to break it down to use for fuel but hopefully it will be in there long enough to somewhat put up a wall to preserve muscle whilst in a catabolic state.

Nutrition is numero uno, whether with training, AAS or cardio........

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## spound

> I think it all depends on the AA prolife of your PWO nutrition. IMO, when I"m doing PWO and/or AM cardio I consume BCAA's prior to the W/O and with PWO nutrition. I dont take them right before cardio, I'll take them on my way to the gym before my w/o. Your bosy will want to break it down to use for fuel but hopefully it will be in there long enough to somewhat put up a wall to preserve muscle whilst in a catabolic state.
> 
> *Nutrition is numero uno*, whether with training, AAS or cardio........


This really can not be emphasized enough. You see so many guys dropping 100's and thousands of dollars on gear and their diet freaking sucks. Honestly that money would be better spent working with a nutritional consultant for clsoe to a year (go through a nice cuuter and bulker with him) and learn how to eat properly and when to eat what foods and how your body responds. Hell, get with swolecat and do this, you would be suprised and most would probably realize they would make jsut as good if not better gains with someone like that naturally than they would while on gear and using their normal old "diets". Most dont realize what a strict consistent diet can do for your physique. You see guys going through preps all the time who dont even look like the same person when it is all said and done...because their diet was SPOT-ON. I jsut get pissed when I have guys coming up to me in the gym and saying "hey, do I jsut need to do a lot more cardio to get lean??" when their diet is absolute shit, and it jsut pains me to know that they are actually getting on the treadmill for an hour busting their asses and they wont see any progress from it b/c their diet sucks!! Not to mention they are going balls to the wall with their hear rate at 180 BPM at a dead sprint, but that is a whole nother story in and of itself.

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## PlasticFuture112

Any thoughts on fast interval training? like sprinting 100m's for sets or even shorter fast paced cardio? I do this and i get severely burned out and see great results but i would like a versus opinion to other forms of cardio.

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## Undecided09

Ill say this much, my trainer, who competes nationally, has told me that on the national scene noone is doing cardio....My rebuddle to that was pretty obvious, "Well everyone nationally is doing anabolics, so I have to do cardio!!"...He said, "That's what you would think, but he opposite in fact is true...When prepping for a contest you need to preserve as much muscle as possible while losing as much fat as possible. Since you are natural you can't afford to do cardio because you have nothing preserving your muscle mass. If you on anabolics it is preserving your LBM for you and you have more room for error in your diet. However you on the other had have to be precise with your diet, and can't afford to lose any muslce." So take that for what its worth...

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## IBdmfkr

Undecided, I think your trainer needs to crawl out of his shoebox especially after stating NOBODY at his level is doing cardio.. each person diets down differently, I used cardio and lots of it this time with great success.

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## WEBB

you have to remeber also guys at that level are in a lot better shape in there off season than most of us, so there diet down is a lot different, alos i dont believe for a second no one at that level is doing cardio...everyone is different and that is a bold broad statement to make...

Also if you have a trainer at national level why do you pm me with 5 questions a day about everything...just ask him...

WEBB

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## Undecided09

Cause I like multiple opinions, besides, he writes great programs, but as far as contest prep goes he gets to complicated...Also, let me rephrase "noone" he said that he talked to 12-15 guys about it and that was the story...Guys at the National NPC show that he was at...

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## IBdmfkr

Great thread.. utilized many of these ideas in the past few months with MUCH success.. 

Thanks to all who contributed.. A must read if anyone hasn't taken the time.

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## svarturer

im intrested in this .... so is it harder for ppl who have been fat for a long time to loose it ... ?? 




> "Stubborn" BF is the hardest to get rid of. All that nasty saturated fat that you/we have consumed over the years is solid at room temp. Therefore it just sits and doesnt want to budge. That is the last fat to go and to get rid of that you really need to crank in that cardio once in a carb depleted state. 
> 
> So for you, start with that 30min PWO brisk walk (3.8-4.2 or so) and take it from there. You know my stance on AM cardio and that will aid greatly as well. Very difficult to really get deep into this b/c there are too many variables. I for one typically take 60-90 minutes with someone on a sit down before a cardio prescription is dealt. You'll never get a quick answer from me Kuad, sorry.
> 
> Note: Not all saturated fat is solid at room temp. SO before any of you wise asses jump all over that I'll make a note of it

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## svarturer

oh yeah.... bump bump bump
this thread deserves it

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## IBdmfkr

> im intrested in this .... so is it harder for ppl who have been fat for a long time to loose it ... ??


Yes I believe so.. you can store different kinds of fat, it just depends on your diet. I lose fat much easier and stay leaner now that I've completely changed my dietary approach as opposed to before my competition..

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## svarturer

1234

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## SPIKE

> so is it harder for ppl who have been fat for a long time to loose it ... ??


Sometimes it is. 

Some people that have been fat for along time may have been put on a genetic path leading up to where they are now. They may genetically have more Brown Adipose tissue then someone else due to what their genes cursed them with. 

I believe that anyone can lose weight if the correct procedures are taken. I also believe that it's harder for some to lose it rather then others as B D stated.

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## SPIKE

BUMP for a good thread, it's been a while........

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## JohnboyF

big bump!!!!!

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## y100adics

ok so after all these posts I still have a question on the subject ..... let's just say for argument sake that you arent concerned about muscle loss .... is high intensity cardio going to make u burn fat faster than low intensity?

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## sonar1234

> ok so after all these posts I still have a question on the subject ..... let's just say for argument sake that you arent concerned about muscle loss .... is high intensity cardio going to make u burn fat faster than low intensity?


High intensity burns up glycogen, if you are on a low carb diet and not using steroids bye bye muscles you will lose a lot.

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## Columbus

SO IF YOU DID DO CARDIO ON OFF DAYS, it would greatly benefit you to wait 2-3 hours after your prior meal....let's say you wake up and eat some fruit and oats and 9am, by 11-12 you should be in the same zone, correct???

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## the hulkster

> ok so after all these posts I still have a question on the subject ..... let's just say for argument sake that you arent concerned about muscle loss .... is high intensity cardio going to make u burn fat faster than low intensity?



yes a higher intensity cardio will burn more fat in terms of grams, but it will not spare as much muscle tissue, but cardio on an empty stomach still puzzled about this, is the theory that you will reach fat oxidation faster if you had an empty stomach? wish swole was still around he would set this straight.

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## WEBB

well i am glad to see my therad is still stirring up some good debates...Jay good to se you keeping it alve bro...

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## MIKE_XXL

> well i am glad to see my therad is still stirring up some good debates...Jay good to se you keeping it alve bro...


Glad to see you can log in here again...XXL

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## SPIKE

> SO IF YOU DID DO CARDIO ON OFF DAYS, it would greatly benefit you to wait 2-3 hours after your prior meal....let's say you wake up and eat some fruit and oats and 9am, by 11-12 you should be in the same zone, correct???


Why not avoid all of that and do it on an empty stomach in the AM. Then have your oats and fruit after that.














> Jay good to se you keeping it alve bro...


Glad to see you around again pal :-). 

I love this thread. Soooo many cardio threads could be deleted, b/c the answers are in here.

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## SPIKE

> yes a higher intensity cardio will burn more fat in terms of grams, but it will not spare as much muscle tissue


Correct.













> is the theory that you will reach fat oxidation faster if you had an empty stomach?


You would think so since glycogen stores would already be somewhat depleted. Caffeine actually increases the rate of fat oxidation, so a little coffee or Energy drink would help.

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## HORSE~

Bump for A.M. empty stomach cardio....

Great thread!!!!

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## Columbus

> Bump for A.M. empty stomach cardio....
> 
> Great thread!!!!


During bulking, I am doing cardio MAX one a week and sometimes two. It's sat and sun, 2.5 hours after my first meal of the day (oats, whole wheat bread, egg whites) - same effect almost as fasted.......just wouldnt do it 1 hour after I ate...........if I did, it would be POSTWORKOUT......I like it preworkout, then I just hit a small bodypart like arms or delts.....

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## llrockyll

i dunno if this was posted havent read all the posts yet but its a great read, i pulled it off another baord.

A.M. Fat Burn 
Author: Tom Venuto 
Date: Aug 01, 2001 

Even though morning cardio has been embraced by bodybuilders as a "tried and true" fat loss technique, there is definitely not a unanimous agreement about its effectiveness, especially in the scientific community. Most competitive bodybuilders are die-hard advocates of doing cardio first thing in the morning before eating their first meal. They believe it will cause them to mobilize more stored body fat and increase their metabolic rate all day long. Theres quite a bit of scientific literature supporting the a.m. fasted cardio theory, but generally, the exercise physiologists and scientists tend not to buy it. They subscribe to the energy balance hypothesis, which states; as long as you burn more calories than you consume in each 24 hour period, then the time of day you burn them doesnt matter, nor does whether you burn them from fat or carbohydrate. 

If you have even the most rudimentary understanding of human physiology and physics, you have to concede that the timing of your cardio is not the most important factor in fat loss. When you do your cardio wont make or break you. Simply doing it whenever its convenient and following a mildly calorie restricted diet is whats important. However, theres a very strong case for doing fasted a.m. cardio and if you want to gain every legal and ethical advantage possible in your quest to get leaner then its definitely something you should take a closer look at. 

The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:

1. When you wake up in the morning after an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your bodys stores of glycogen are somewhat ***leted. Doing cardio in this state causes your body to mobilize more fat because of the unavailability of glycogen.

2. Eating causes a release of insulin . Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat. Less insulin is present in the morning; therefore, more body fat is burned when cardio is done in the morning. 

3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) "floating around" in the bloodstream when you wake up after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you will burn more fat. 

4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.) 

5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during the session so you definitely benefit from it, but you fail to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.

Research supports this theory. A study performed at Kansas State University and published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise showed that a kilogram of fat is burned sooner when exercise is done in the fasted state in the morning than when its done later in the day. The researchers measured respiratory gas exchange, caloric expenditure and carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism, and found that the amount of fat burned during aerobic exercise amounted to 67% of the total energy expenditure in the morning after a 12 hour fast. This is substantially higher than the 50% expenditure achieved when the same exercise was done later in the day or after eating. A similar study from The Journal of Applied Physiology looked at the effects of aerobic exercise on lipid oxidation in fed versus fasted states. The researchers concluded, "our results support the hypothesis that endurance training enhances lipid oxidation in men after a 12 hour overnight fast." Yet another scientific paper, Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss," reports, "The ability of exercise to selectively promote fat oxidation should be optimized if exercise is done during morning fasted metabolism."

Despite the fact that increased fat burning from morning aerobics seems logical and is backed by research, the majority of scientists and exercise physiologists vehemently deny its effectiveness. They are quick to point out that you can find a study to support almost any theory you want to advocate. Interestingly though, even the most dyed in the wool academics agree that youll burn more fat in the fuel mix as compared to sugars. The real controversy lies in whether this fact has any impact on overall fat loss in the long run. 

Exercise Physiologist Greg Landry, MS, author of "The Metabolism System for Weight Loss and Fitness," explains, "I agree that you burn a fuel mix that is a little higher in fat if youre exercising on an empty stomach. However, I think the real question is, does that matter? I believe we have a pool of calories stored in different forms in the body (fat, glycogen, etc.), so burned calories all come from the same pool. Thus, it really doesnt matter that the fuel mix has a little more fat in it at a given time. If its pulling from fat stores at that time, then its pulling less from glycogen stores and thus future consumed calories will be a little more likely to be stored as fat because glycogen stores are a little fuller. So its all a wash."

Lyle McDonald, an expert on bodybuilding nutrition and author of "The Ketogenic Diet," agrees. He argues that the body will compensate later in the day and is simply "too smart" for strategies like this to ever work: "All that research says is that you burn a greater proportion of fat this way, which I agree with 100%," says Lyle. "The majority of research shows that as far as real world fat loss goes, it doesnt really matter what you burn. Rather, 24-hour calorie balance is what matters. Because if you burn glucose during exercise, you tend to burn more fat the rest of the day. If you burn fat during exercise, you burn more glucose during the day. The end result is identical. If that werent the case, then athletes like sprinters who never burn fat during exercise wouldnt be shredded. Basically, they burn so many calories that they remain in balance and dont gain any fat. So, while morning cardio probably provides some psychological benefits to bodybuilders who are programmed to do it that way, I cant say that I think it will result in greater real world fat loss, which is what matters."

When it comes to "real world" fat loss, few people have more experience than Chris Aceto. A successful bodybuilder and nutritionist to some of the top pro bodybuilders in the world, Aceto is a firm believer in morning cardio. He unequivocally states, "The fastest way to tap stored body fat is to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach."

Aceto believes that looking at calories only in terms of energy in vs. energy out is "limited thinking." He asserts that there are more factors involved in "real world" results than just energy balance. This all comes back to the old argument, are all calories created equal? "Absolutely not!" Aceto declares. "A calorie is not just a calorie and exercise physiologists freak out when they hear this."

"These guys are working from the assumption that its just a matter of calories in vs. calories out, period," Chris continued. "With that line of reasoning, theyd be forced to say that if I consume nothing but candy bars and Coca-Cola, and take in 100 calories less than maintenance, Id lose weight. We know its not that simple. You also have to account for ratios of carbs, protein, and fat. Then theres meal frequency too: From real world results we know you put down more muscle mass from 5 or 6 meals a day than from 3 meals a day. There are more things involved than just calories."

Whether or not morning cardio in the fasted state increases "real world" fat loss is still the subject of controversy, but there are many other reasons you might want to consider making it a part of your daily routine. Landry, despite his doubts about whether the fuel source matters, admits, "If I had to pick a single factor I thought was most important in a successful weight loss program, it would have to be to exercise first thing in the morning." 

Here are some of the additional benefits of doing cardio early in the morning:

1.It makes you feel great all day by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins. 

2. It "energizes" you and "wakes you up."

3. It may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.

4. Your bodys circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to wake up at the same time every day.

5. Youll be less likely to "blow off" your workout when its out of the way early (like when youre exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for happy hour).

6. You can always "make time" for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.

7. It increases your metabolic rate for hours after the session is over. 

Of all these benefits, the post-exercise increase in your metabolic rate is one of the most talked about. Scientists call this "afterburn" effect the "excess post-exercise oxygen consumption" or EPOC for short.

Looking only at the number of calories and the type of calories burned during the session doesnt give you the full picture. You also need to look at the increased number of calories you continue to burn after the workout is over. Thats right - work out in the morning and you burn calories all day long. Imagine burning extra fat as you sit at your desk at work! Thats the good news. The bad news is, the degree of EPOC is not as great as most people think. Its a myth that your metabolism stays elevated for 24 hours after a regular aerobic workout. That only happens after extremely intense and/or prolonged exercise such as running a marathon.

After low intensity exercise, the magnitude of the EPOC is so small that its impact on fat loss is negligible. Somewhere between 9 and 30 extra calories are burned after exercise at an intensity of less than 60-65% of maximal heart rate. In other words, a casual stroll on the treadmill will do next to nothing to increase your metabolism. 

However, EPOC does increase with the intensity (and duration) of the exercise. According to Wilmore and Costill in "Physiology of Sport and Exercise," the EPOC after moderate exercise (75-80%) will amount to approximately .25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hour. This would provide an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be calculated in the total energy expended for that activity. An extra 75 calories is definitely nothing Earth shattering. However, it does add up over time. In a year that would mean (in theory) you would burn an extra 5.2 lbs of fat from the additional calories expended after the workout. 

One way to get a significant post exercise "afterburn" is high intensity interval training (HIIT). HIIT is done by alternating brief periods of high intensity work (85% or more) with brief periods of lower intensity work. Studies on the effects of HIIT have demonstrated a much higher EPOC, which can add substantially to the days calorie expenditure. In one study, scientists from the University of Alabama compared the effects of two exercise protocols on 24-hour energy expenditure. The first group cycled for 60 minutes at a moderate intensity. The second group performed HIIT, cycling for two minutes at high intensity followed by two minutes at a low intensity. The group that performed the HIIT burned 160 more calories in 24 hours than the low intensity group. That means the HIIT group would burn an extra 11.8 pounds of fat in one year if they did HIIT five days a week instead of conventional training. 

Ironically, weight training has a much higher magnitude of EPOC than aerobic training. Studies have shown increases in metabolic rate of as much as 4-7% over a 24-hour period from resistance training. Yes - that means bodybuilding does burn fat  albeit through an indirect mechanism. For someone with an expenditure of 2500 calories per day, that could add up to 100 - 175 extra calories burned after your weight training workout is over. The lesson is simple: Anyone interested in losing body fat who is not lifting weights should first take up a regimen of bodybuilding, then  and only then  start thinking about the morning cardio! 

A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if its done with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen, blood glucose and insulin are all low. As weve already concluded, this is an optimum environment for burning fat. Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to avert muscle loss.

All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you dont overdo it, you shouldnt worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover" and its a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay anabolic and you gain or at least maintain muscle. 

How do you build up more muscle than you break down? First, avoid excessive cardio. Aceto suggests limiting your cardio on an empty stomach to 30 minutes, and then it would be "highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel." He also mentions that "a strong cup of coffee should facilitate a shifting to burn more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, youll ultimately spare protein too." You might also want to consider experimenting with the thermogenic ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin stack (or its herbal equivalent).

Second, give your body the proper nutritional support. Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive aerobics. Provide yourself with the proper nutritional support for the rest of the day, including adequate meal frequency, protein, carbohydrates and total calories, and its not as likely that there will be a net loss of muscle tissue over each 24-hour period. 

Third, keep training with heavy weights, even during a fat loss phase. Using light weights and higher reps thinking that it will help you get more "cut" is a mistake: What put the muscle on in the first place is likely to help you keep it there.

Still petrified of losing your hard-earned muscle, but youd like to take advantage of the fat-burning and metabolism-boosting effects of morning cardio? One strategy many bodybuilders use is to drink a protein shake or eat a protein only meal 30-60 minutes prior to the morning session. The protein without the carbs will minimize the insulin response and allow you to mobilize fat while providing amino acids to prevent muscle breakdown.

In conclusion, it seems that morning cardio has enough indisputable benefits to motivate most people to set their alarms early. But lets talk bottom line results here: Does it really result in more "real world fat loss" than aerobics performed at other times of the day or after eating? I have to believe it does. Experience, common sense and research all tell me so. Nevertheless, this will obviously continue to be an area of much debate, and clearly, more research is needed. In the meantime, while the scientists are busy in their labs measuring respiratory exchange ratios, caloric expenditures and rates of substrate utilization, Im going to keep waking up at 6:00 AM every morning to get on my Stairmaster.

References

1. Aceto, Chris. Everything you need to know about fat loss. Club Creavalle, Inc. (1997).

2. Bahr, R. Excess post-exercise oxygen consumption  Magnitude, Mechanisms and Practical Implications. Acta Physiol Scand. Suppl. (1992) 605. 1-70.

3. Bergman, BC, Brooks, GA. Respiratory gas-exchange ratios during graded exercise in fed and fasted trained and untrained men. Journal of Applied Physiology. (1999) 86: 2.

4. Brehm, B.A., and Gutin, B. Recovery energy expenditure for steady state exercise in runners and non-exercisers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. (1986) 18: 205, 

5. Brybner, BW. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. Journal of American College of Nutrition, (1997) 16: 68-73

6. Landry, Greg. The Metabolism System for Weight Loss. Greg Landry. (2000).

7. Maehlum, S., etc al. Magnitude and duration of post exercise oxygen consumption in healthy young subjects. Metabolism (1986) 35 (5): 425-429. 

8. McCarty, MF. Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss. Medical Hypothesis. (1995) 44: 325-330 

9. McDonald, Lyle. The Ketogenic Diet. Morris Publishing, (1998).

10. Melby, C. et al. Effect of acute resistance exercise on post exercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J Applied Physiology, (1993). 75: 1847-1853

11. Wilmore, Jack, Costill, David. Physiology of Sport and Exercise. (1999) 2nd ed. Human Kinetics

12. Tremblay, A, et al, Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism (1994) 43: 818-818

13. Treuth, M.S., Hunter, G.R., & Williams, M. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise. (1996) 28, 1138-1143 

14.Wilcox, Harford & Wedel. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise, (1985) 17:2

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## WEBB

just wanted to bump this...me and Jayhova and a lot of other had some great debates in here and learned a tonne....

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## jackjackson

Pre Cardio in the AM on empty stomach as soon as I wake up at 5:30 am

I take
500MG of Green tea Extract
2G Of L-Carnitine
5G BCAA
5G L-Glutamine
6G Yohimbe
400MG Caffeine
5G L-Arginine

In the gym by 6am for 60 minutes.

Do Cardio for 1 hour treadmill walking on incline of 4.2 - 4.9 for 60 minutes, keeping heartrate between 130- 150 max.

I did this for my NPC pre contest along with a proper diet and I lost weight and BF% really well and looked really tight and lean, keep in mind I was eating all whole food so that helped lean me out and tighten up, no supplements and what not.
Also had 0 carb days alternating weekly to keep the body guessing.
God I never loved carbs so much, I shit more when I eat carbs also drink 2 1/2 gallons compared to 1 1/2 when using carbs.


It all comes down to once again Diet and Cardio, I was still doing my 5 day split in the gym and 2 night 30 min cardio sessions on the weekend.


I did my show and learned alot and now im looking better than I did at my show.
Anyways Cardio in the am works as long as you know what your doing and most of all have your diet in check.

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## jackjackson

O BTW
Here are some pics of me
Im looking much better currently than I did for my show, I took 1 week off and pigged out and gained 15 pounds, Currently cutting back down and then bulking up clean.

Here I am Mid Day before Night show


Here I am prejudging. Im on the right side



Here I am night after show, when I carbed up the right way, to late.
Was first show learned alot.


Here is Me right now, just taken 5 minutes
2 weeks into my cardio and proper diet after show.

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## Deltasaurus

whatd u do for that tan

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## jackjackson

Used 4 coats of protan competition color + pam

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## Electry

Its not good or bad, Cardio on Empty stomach is the BEst  :Smilie:

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## Big Bapper

> BUMP for a good thread, it's been a while........


BUMP, Big Bapper BACK.

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## jackjackson

Bump^^^

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