# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Middle Eastern Conflict

## tolinka

wanted to know whats your opinion on the Middle Eastern conflict?

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## Darkknight442

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Tolinka you reallly don't value my opinion. lol jk

Well i'll tell everyone what i told you. It bohters me but you know what you never really know everything thats going on, yah know. Governements are always keeping stuff out of publiuc view. And the media always adds stuff to hype it up!., thats why i don't bother. You don't know what the hell is going on. yah know>?

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## Buddha_Red

That part of the world has been fighting for 2000 years, it will never stop

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## physio_sport

my opionion is that the Palestinians are right. i dont agree with suacide bombings i think they are very cowerdly but i do feel they need to fight back.
the isreals have nukes,big army,$7 million dollar militry funding from america, tanks, bomberjets. 
what do the Palestinians have?
they told yasir arafat not to leave his building and he couldnt even step outside.
how are the Palestinians a threat to isreal.
i think they want the land of the Palestinians.
they tried to buy it a long time a go but the Palestinians wouldant sell it too them.

this is just my opionion.

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## BOUNCER

ISRAEL


I've said my bit here.

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## BOUNCER

ISRAEL


I've said my bit here.

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...threadid=28800

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## Zoolander

Ya Ya we all know that you are Pro-Israel Bouncer  :Smilie: 
and 
you are Pro-Palestine physio  :Smilie: 

But it is extremely sad to see the cycle of violance going on there.

Israel launches an offensive on the palestines, 
alot of people die including the innocent, 
this in turn turns normal people to turn irrational,
which in turn causes irrational people to act out of anger and revenge, thus the suicide bombings, 
which in turn kill innocent lives thus in turn leading to another israel offensive.
And it goes on and on.


I am totally against the suicide bombing. I find it stupid and totally against the teaching of Islam. However I can understand the logic behind it although it is also wrong. These suicide bombings are the result of desperation of not knowing any other way out. Which is I repeat WRONG! WRONG! and Wrong!

Acts of terror creates terrorist.
Acts of love creates lovers

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## gotenks

A few things here how hamas came to be : 

http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID...2-051845-8272r

And hers a history lesson how israel came to eb 

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/benjamin.htm

But the truth of the matter is if u have the money and the media on your side u can do as u will and the common folk just take everything they hear in the media for gospel, since 9-11 the number of peopel killed by the isreali' army has soared, how convienient

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## Zoolander

Whoaa!!!!
I did not know that!!!!

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## physio_sport

/ Genesis 15:18 says, "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Look at a map and draw two lines. The first runs west to east from the Nile to Ur going through Kadesh (a 700-plus mile southern border). The second runs from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates running through Hamath (a 300-plus mile norhtern border). The Mediterranean serves as the western border. The Euphrates serves as the eastern border. All land between these borders has been promised to Israel. "/

the above i got from a website this is how they see their right to the "holyland" infact they still need some of Egypt,palstine etc.. etc..

and palastine was promised to the jews by the british priminister in 1917(?)by John Belfor(d) (if i remember correctly) and then they even offered large amounts of money to buy palastine for the jews but they refused to sell it.
thats like me promising something that doesnt even belong to me to someone else.

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## BOUNCER

Phy someother views' on the Israeli flag. I've heard your argument when I've spoken to arabs in Lebanon. As regards Israel "needing Egypt", well didn't they give back awhole load of it after the first camp David. Anyway some more info on the Israeli flag...

The flag of Israel is based on the design of the tallit, the prayer shawl worn by Jewish men (and by some women in Reform and Conservative congregations) during certain services. The tallit is worn during all morning services. In addition, it is worn on the eve of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The tallit is also worn when reading the Torah during Shabbat (Sabbath) afternoon services and by the person leading evening services. (Jews pray three times a day: the morning service is called shacharit; the afternoon service is called minchah; and the evening service is called ma'ariv or aravit.) There are two basic traditions regarding who wears the tallit. According to one tradition, any Jewish adult should wear the tallit (at the appropriate times). A Jewish adult is one who is thirteen years of age and older (a Bar Mitzvah, or "Son of the Commandments.") According to another tradition, only married Jews wear the tallit. In addition to the exterior tallit, there is also a tallit katan ("small tallit"), which pious Jews wear all day under their clothes.

Because the tallit is one of the most recognizable symbols of the Jewish people, it was chosen to be the basis of the flag. (Indeed, in coming up with a design for the flag, the early Zionists came to the realization that the Jewish People had had a flag all along - the tallit - and there was thus no need to design a flag from scratch.) In the center of the flag is the Magen David, or "Shield of [King] David," better known in English as the "Star of David" or "Jewish Star," another recognizable Jewish 

Zoo, Yes I'm pro Israeli but I'm also pro life too and I believe every life is as presious as the next, be it Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu etc etc etc..

Bouncer

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## palme

Im pro Israel also

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## BOUNCER

Gotenks I've just read your two url's posted here and would love to see the evidence of Israeli backing of Hamas, AND even if it did. Who has America, England, Franch and others backed over the last 100 years, too many for me to name here.
Your url to how Israel came into being was interesting untill it blamed Jews directly for WWI and WWII, sorry buddy but thats just plain horse shit.

"But the truth of the matter is if u have the money and the media on your side u can do as u will and the common folk just take everything they hear in the media for gospel, since 9-11 the number of peopel killed by the isreali' army has soared, how convienient"

More rubbish, I say there's not another army and government in the world who hold's itself more open to public accountablity than the IDF and the Israeli government as a whole. And boy don't they suffer for it.
And where's your evidence of more Israeli killings since 9-11 ?. 
If I can get back to the media backing for Israel for a moment, after the recent fighting in Jenin the world media reported a massacar had occurred with hundreds killed, possibly thousends. But the offical UN and Red Cross figures don't back those claims. Both the UN and the Red Cross reported 56 killed and 18 missing. Those figures don't include 27 Israeli soldiers KIA in the defence of their country. Now show me another army and government in conflict which holds itself soo open to public accountablity please.

Bouncer

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## gotenks

You do realise the article was writen by a jew yup ?
And the jews ( or should i say wannabe nazi's ) who did the shady dealing as the article were the ones fleeing from russians taken in by the germans etc..
Then they sold them out, but the war was already ahead but the thing is it was prolonged by the intro of the us into a war that was close to being settled.
Fact is a massacre did occur in jenin but the un investigators were only allowed to examine what the aramy let them, how do u expect an imapartial out come form that ?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...ID=0&listSrc=Y
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2002-d.../world/w10.htm


About hamas the thing is when there is a terrorist act by them it is never benificial for any one excpet the israeli government, whenever there is some progress int alks or some investigation into some wrong doing out pop hamas and do the act and the killing continues..

And whenever some one is pro investiagtions into israel out pops the anti-Semitic crap, wherther u actually choose to accept thios or read into it is up to or u a 100% correct in your opinion, thats your choice.

I dont see the need for any language such as shit or etc.. in your reply,if u differ bring the proof the 2 articels i posted before were proofs in them selves if u choose to ignore them thats up to u.

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## BOUNCER

GoTenks the articules were rubbish in my opinion, and anyone could claim to be Jewish in order to be more credability into something like that.
REgarding the IDF stopping UN investigators go into Jenin, it was because the UN wanted to put in people who were not qualified in any military sense to investigate that incident. And the leading UN investigator (his names escapes me) was openly opposed to the state of Israel from the out set and never failed to miss a chance to say so.
Speaking from experience, I've served in numberous UN missions, including service in Lebanon, I know the dangers of conducting a search without proper military supervision etc.. It would have simply been to dangerous for either the media or the UN to go into Jenin at that early stage. Oh, where's the mass graves ?.

Bouncer

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## gotenks

The article regarding the WW1 etc,.. was delivered as a speech man, no- one contested it at the time because there was no need to doubt the man giving the speech, thats a testament to the man giving it if u don't take it theres not much we can do about it.
As for the mass graves as id on't happen to live there i can't say but the evidence more for the masscare than against it and doesn't it strike you in the least at how convineint it was to stop investigations of so called saftey ?

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## Rak_Ani

I don't think the Arabs want or ever wanted to co-exist with Israel. If ever they become stronger the first thing they'll do is attack Israel. Basically they don't deserve a thing, in my opinion, since they lost those lands in a war they themselves started, but out of love for the people of Israel this is the best solution (or closest thing to it) I can see:

Israel withdraws from the territories. Settlements evacuated. Border is built, army lined up at the border. If any Palestinian tries to cross the border to Israel, he should be shot on the spot. Electricity, water and all other supplies from Israel to the Palestinians are stopped. Let them go to their "brothers" to ask for water and electricity. Money funding from Israel is cut off. The Palestinians want independence, but don't want peace, and so it shall be. From the day the border is built Israel has nothing more to do with them. If they starve to death, or freez to death it's their problem. No palestinians should be allowed to cross that border to Israel for employment(that will bring unemployment there to almost 100%, but that too, is their own problem). 
COMPLETE SEPERATION.
It's time Israel rids herself of the problem that the Egyptians and Jordanians have rid themselves of a long time ago.

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## gotenks

:Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## gotenks

If you got your news only from the television, you would have no idea of the roots of the Middle East conflict, or that the Palestinians are victims of an illegal military occupation. : John Pilger :27 Jun 2002
In May, the Glasgow University Media Group, distinguished for its pioneering media analysis, published a study of the reporting of the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict. It ought to be required reading in newsrooms and media schools. The research showed that the public's lack of understanding of the conflict and its origins was compounded by news reporting, especially on television.

Viewers, says the study, are rarely told that the Palestinians are victims of an illegal military occupation. The term "occupied territories" is almost never explained. Indeed, only 9 per cent of young people interviewed knew that the Israelis were the occupiers and the "settlers" were Israeli. The selective use of language is important. The study found that words such as "murder", "atrocity", "lynching" and "savage, cold-blooded killing" were used only to describe Israeli deaths. "The extent to which some journalism assumes the Israeli perspective," wrote Professor Greg Philo, "can be seen if the statements are 'reversed' and presented as Palestinian actions. [We] did not find any [news] reports stating that 'The Palestinian attacks were in retaliation for the murder of those resisting the illegal Israeli occupation'."

Given that the central truth of the conflict is routinely obscured, none of this is surprising. News and current affairs programmes seldom, if ever, remind viewers that Israel was established largely by force on 78 per cent of historic Palestine and, since 1967, has illegally occupied and imposed various forms of military rule on the remaining 22 per cent. The media "coverage" has long reversed the roles of oppressor and victim. Israelis are never called terrorists. Correspondents who break this taboo are often intimidated with slurs of anti-Semitism - a bleak irony, as Palestinians are Semites, too.

Having long ago recognised Israel's "right" to more than two-thirds of their country, the Palestinian leadership has contorted itself in order to accommodate a maze of mostly American plans designed to deny true independence and ensure Israel's enduring power and control. Until recently, this was reported uncritically as "the peace process". When ordinary Palestinians cried "enough!" and rose up in the second intifada, armed mostly with slingshots, they were put down by snipers with high-velocity weapons and with tanks and Apache gunships, supplied by the United States.

And now, in their despair, as some are turning to suicide attacks, the Palestinians appear on the news only as bombers and rioters, which, as the Glasgow study points out, "is, of course, the view of the Israeli government". The latest euphemism, "incursion", is from the vocabulary of lies coined in Vietnam. It means assaulting human beings with tanks and planes. "Cycle of violence" is similar. It suggests, at best, two equal sides, never that the Palestinians are resisting violent oppression with violence. A Channel 4 Dispatches recently "balanced" the Israeli assault on the Jenin refugee camp with a Palestinian attack on a "settlement". There was no explanation that these are not settlements at all, but armed, illegal fortresses that are central to a policy of imposing strategic and military control.

On 9 June, the Correspondent series on BBC Television broadcast a report about the recent siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. This was an exemplar of the problems identified in the Glasgow research. It was, in effect, an Israeli occupation propaganda film put out by the BBC. It was made as a co-production with an American channel, and the credits listed the producer as Israel Goldvicht, who runs an Israeli production company.

That would have been fine had the film-makers made any attempt to challenge the Israeli military with whom they had ingratiated themselves. "The Israelis were determined not to damage the buildings," began the narrator. "The international press were cleared from Manger Square, but we were allowed to stay and observe the Israeli operation . . ." With this "unique access" unexplained to the viewers, the film presented one Colonel Lior as the star good guy, guaranteeing "medical treatment to anyone wounded", saying a cheery hello on a mobile phone to a friend in Oxford Street and, like any colonial officer, speaking about and on behalf of the Palestinians.

"Killers" were described by the colonel without challenge by the BBC/Israel Goldvicht team. They were "terrorists" and "gunmen", not those resisting the invasion of their homeland. Israel's right to "arrest" foreign peace protesters drew no query from the BBC. Not a single Palestinian was interviewed. As the sun set on his fine profile, the last word went to the good colonel. The issues between the Israelis and Palestinians, he said, "were personal points of view".

Well, no. The brutal subjugation of the Palestinians is, under any interpretation of the law, an epic injustice, a crime in which the colonel plays a leading part. The BBC has always provided the best, most sophisticated propaganda service in the world, because matters of justice and injustice, right and wrong are simply usurped either by "balance" or by liberal sophistry; one is either "pro- Israeli" or "pro-Palestinian". Fiona Murch, the executive producer of Correspondent, told me that Israel Goldvicht Productions would not have won the "trust" of the Israeli army had the producer asked real journalistic questions. That was the way of "fly on the wall": a candid admission. "It was breaking a stereotype," she said. "It was about a good, decent man" (the colonel). She said I ought to have seen an earlier Correspondent series, which had Palestinians in it.

I think she was trying to offer that as "balance" for The Siege of Bethlehem - a film that might be dismissed as cheap PR, were it not for its complicity with a regime that uses ethnic difference to deny human rights, imprisons people without charge or trial, and murders and tortures "systematically", says Amnesty.

Goebbels would have approved.

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## Rak_Ani

You might wanna take a look a this site:

http://www.honestreporting.com/

And one of my "favorites":

http://www.honestreporting.com/followup/01_tuvia.asp


Plus, if you're really into facts, you might wanna read some of the stuff here: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/index.html

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## BOUNCER

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> *I don't think the Arabs want or ever wanted to co-exist with Israel. If ever they become stronger the first thing they'll do is attack Israel. Basically they don't deserve a thing, in my opinion, since they lost those lands in a war they themselves started, but out of love for the people of Israel this is the best solution (or closest thing to it) I can see:
> 
> Israel withdraws from the territories. Settlements evacuated. Border is built, army lined up at the border. If any Palestinian tries to cross the border to Israel, he should be shot on the spot. Electricity, water and all other supplies from Israel to the Palestinians are stopped. Let them go to their "brothers" to ask for water and electricity. Money funding from Israel is cut off. The Palestinians want independence, but don't want peace, and so it shall be. From the day the border is built Israel has nothing more to do with them. If they starve to death, or freez to death it's their problem. No palestinians should be allowed to cross that border to Israel for employment(that will bring unemployment there to almost 100%, but that too, is their own problem). 
> COMPLETE SEPERATION.
> It's time Israel rids herself of the problem that the Egyptians and Jordanians have rid themselves of a long time ago.*



Yep, couldn't have said it better myself. And I wonder, if the pals were given the West Bank would they give the land back to Jordan (who occupied it before 1967) or would they occupy and settle it with more Palestinians?. 

Bouncer

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## gotenks

Why don u jsut line em all up put em in camps and brun em all up
that way there will be nor more suicide attacks
Cus thats all i see happening right now
As for the 'real jews' they don really wnat anything to do with the abombanation known as Israel 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...771040,00.html

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## gotenks

And because them sites promote your misconceptions further you labell them as factual lol .
it one rule for one people and an etirely diff rule for another people
I see the logic now 
thank you  :Smilie:

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## Rak_Ani

Gotenks,

Ok, we get the idea. You're a Jew hater. Have you got anything else to add? Anything relevant for example?
And Why do you hate Jews so much anyway? Is it because they're such great survivors? Or maybe because they've managed to do in 50 years what most countries in the world couldn't do in 100? (like build a country which has the 5th strongest high tech industry in the world?). Or maybe it's the brains your jelous of? Or the good looks? 
To me you sound like just another bored insecure person who's trying to feel better about himself by telling everyone that others are evil. 
Nothing I would say will change you, therefore I won't waste my time.

Bouncer,
Thank you. The way I see it, if the Palestinians won't talk peace and will continue this blood bath they're doing to Israeli citizens, there's absolutely no reason in the world for Israel to keep taking care of them. If they want a state, I say give them their state, but fully give them their state and that means they have to make it on their own. Demanding a state and at the same time expecting to get money, electricity, water, jobs, food, etc from Israel is just not making any sense. 
If the Palestinians don't like being stripped and bomb searched at crossings to Israel then they should either stop exploding in Israeli streets, or get a new job inside their own territory. If they don't like their ambulances being detained at crossings, they should stop hidding weapons and terrorists on their ambulances. If they don't like their children getting hurt they should keep them home and not let the terrorists take them out to crossfires and use them as human shields. If they don't like being poor they should get rid of Arafat, take back the money he stole from them, and get a new leadership that would care for them. But you see, the Palestinians just refuse to take responsibility. They go and do things without being prepared to take responsibility and deal with the consequences, and the world gives them all the legitimacy to do so. 

I can only imagine what the world would be like if there was no oil....

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## Zoolander

Zoolander news network:

Breaking News!!!!!!!
The crisis in the middle east has finally ended. Bouncer has finally convinced Gotenks that the palestines are at fault. Upon receiving this information the Palestinian all made their way to the meditterranean sea and jumping in thus making Rak_Ani a very happy person.


Gotenks
Ok Ok.... Just say you are able to convince Bouncer that the Palestinians are right. Will the massacre end????? I think not.
SO just put this to rest cause I sense some hostility here.

Bouncer 
Same to you to.......... minds are set. I see that neither you nor gotenks would change your mentality towards this problem so forgetaboutit. 

Rak_Ani:
I prefer to be politically correct and not use Jew hater but Pro Palestine.
SO SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No hard feeling mm'kay

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## Rak_Ani

Zoolander
Have you not the ability to tell the difference between showing support for one group and showing hate for another?

And what makes you so sure I'd be happy if all the Palestinians died? Don't you think that if this was my goal I'd just support what Kahana said and Join Kahana Hai group? (I assume you don't know who Kahana was, so I'll just fill you in. Kahana was a radical Arab hater who supported the idea of transfering all the Palestinians to Jordan, by force.)

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## BOUNCER

Zoolander I think you have taken me completely wrong, I'm not any type of Arab hater. Like I've stated earlier I've served in the Middle East and if I looked for reason to hate either Muslim's or Jews I'd find plenty of reason in both. I've had comrades killed by both sides of the war in South Lebanon, so I wouldn't be looking too far. However that would be short sigthed of me, so I looked at the wider picture of the conflict there and educated myself through my experiences there and speaking to people on all sides. And I've met as many 'good' muslims as I have 'good' Jews, for some reason not so many 'good' christians!. ANyway I believe I know right from wrong and for many many reason's (alot of which Rak_Ani lists) I choose to support Israel.
Indeed after my last mission to the region I left a huge part of myheart in Israel and if I didn't have the responsiblities I have in Ireland (a young family, mortage etc) I'd make a move to Israel, and if nesseccary bring my vast military experience to the IDF in it's efforts to defend Israel. But, it's easy to 'shout from the side lines' and I'm not now, or ever likely to be in that position. If you'd ever made a visit to Israel and looked at what Israel has managed to do to the country in 50 years you'd be in awe too.
Gotenks, if the Palestinians are so good, why do other arabs keep them at the bottom of the pile every where else?.
Anyway I think this argument is about at an end, I can't see how anyone could argue or add to the points Rak_Ani has posted. 
Take care,
Peace.

Bouncer

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## Zoolander

Bouncer 
I know that you are not an arab hater. I was just stating a point that what ever is said here would not change a thing. It may come across other wise and I am sorry.

I could spend hours or days researching the net on the middle eastern conflict and be just as knowledgable as Rak_Ani and try scoring points in the debate here, but I would rather spend my time reading up on juices or volunteering at orphanages where I could really make a change.

And Dang!!!!! Did not know that Rak_Ani was a woman. Would have been a lot more polite. 

As for me, I can say that I am not a jew hater cause I really like Seinfeld.

Btw Bouncer if you have a chance come down to Singapore. I have never been to Israel but Singapore has achieved a whole lot in a mere 37 years. 

So again no hard feelings to all mm'kay
thank you

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## Rak_Ani

Zoolander,
I think maybe there are some things you should know about me that will clear up a few things.
First of all, no need to be polite just because I'm a female. Honestly. I've survived a lot more than impoliteness from people. :Wink:  (What's up with this smilly? lookes like he has a black eye instead of winking)
Second of all I don't surf the net all day just to get info in the conflict. I grew up in this conflict and I live it every day. As an Israeli who lives this situation everyday and gets her knowledge on the conflict first hand, and not just from the media, I think I'm just a little better informed than you.
To be honest, I used to believe in the peace process. I voted left wing parties ever since I started voting, and I was a part of the peace movement. But what can I say, when your dad calls you to tell you a bus blew up in front of your brother's face, you kind of lose your trust in the other side.
So at the moment I see no hope for a peace agreement being signed anytime soon. I'm intersted in survival and in saving as many lives of my people as possible. So a seperation is the only solution I see. If you ask me what I perfer, dumping the other side and letting them rot in their swamp or trying to help them and risking another bus blowing up in my brother's face, I chose the first option, and I'm pretty sure you will too.
When they decide they're serious and wanna talk, we're here to talk. Until then I don't want a thing to do with them. It's that simple.

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## David B.

> _Originally posted by tolinka_ 
> *wanted to know whats your opinion on the Middle Eastern conflict?*


There are not nearly enough choices on the poll.

I say they're both right, and they're both wrong, and they remind me of two children in the back seat screaming "you started it" "no, you started it" "no you started it" "no you started it"... I just wish there was a parent in the front seat who could turn around and slap the shit out of the both of them and make them shut the hell up.

--dnb

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## David B.

> _Originally posted by Buddha_Red_ 
> *That part of the world has been fighting for 2000 years, it will never stop*


Well now, that's a rather defeatist attitude, isn't it...

--dnb

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## gotenks

I got no hostility here, most of my stuff has been quotes from people and lighthearted comments on the situtation the thing that strikes me how easy it is to get labelled a jew hater for simply posting a few things.
I'm just pro life and if that means i am this hater or that so be it, :P

And about the situation being resolved i don't see it happening anytime there have been any progress in talks or anything there has always been a convinient killing on one of the sides that causes talks to fail and they will, sadly always fail as that is the scheme of things to come.

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## BOUNCER

Gotenks, how would you feel about Rak_Ani's idea of giving the Pals the West bank and Gaza, withdraw the settlers, estabilish an international border and then complete separation, ie. No financial add, eectricity, water etc.. Let the Pals sink or swim. If anyone illegally crosses that border their shot. Withdraw all work permits from Non resident arabs. But at the end of all that the Pal authorities have their own 'country'.

Bouncer

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## gotenks

How is that Justice  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## EXCESS

Have you ever tried to convince someone that onions taste good, when they don't like onions? It doesn't matter what the fuck you say, you'll never convince him. My point? You're all speaking to deaf ears. If Arabs and Jews can't respect each other on a damn message board, how the hell will they get along when living together?

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## 4inguy

i say the arab neighboring countries open up the borders and let the killing begin. there is alot of thirsty for blood arabs just waiting to cross the border. Israilies been killing palestinians for the last four decades. they blew up homes, raped women, tortured men and wiped out innocent kids. suicide bombings will never stop. ya'll expect those people to just sit there and watch thier people die. those people gave up thier lives defending thier lands and people. yall don't see shit on CNN. they only show the suicide bombings. there is another side of the story yall gotta see.
the jews have to leave back to RUSSIA. thats were they belong.

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## BOUNCER

4inguy, thanks for that very well searched and thoughtout respsonse to the thread, excellent post buddy. It really made me rethink where my priorities were. 

Yeah open up their borders, let war commence. but wait, has an arab country ever won a war against israel. Oh damn they haven't, better close 'em again and go back to raring goats before losing another war.

Why call homacide bombings 'suicide bombings' ? After why the target is innocent people of Israel, not only jews, but many christians like myself and muslims have been murdered in them also.

forget complete separation, give the Left bank back to Jordan and the Gaza back to Egypt and let them fight the scumbags, because no one else wants or needs more pals populating their lands.

Bouncer

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## physio_sport

> because no one else wants or needs more pals populating their lands.
> 
> Bouncer AKA bouncer


yo! that is one sick response. and people wonder what the palistinians have to protect themselves from. its shit like that. alot of people think like you "no one else wants or needs more pals populating their lands."
thats why isreal kills them they dont want them. 





> , better close 'em again and go back to raring goats



and what the fuck is that supposed to mean.

you people in america dont get to see nothing because your media is more controlled then you think. we in england and france and other euro countries see more on our tv's thats why the people are against the isreal army.

man i thaught you where ok but you turned out to be a racist. there should be laws for people like you.you make me sick.

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## Rak_Ani

physio,

1. Do you honestly think that if Israel was "out to kill" the palestinians there would be any of them left in the Middle East by now? I mean, Israel beat Syria, Jordan and Egypt in a war in 6 days (and took only a few hours to wipe out the Egyptian airforce which was at the time considered the best Arabic airforce in the Middle East), so don't you think that if the goal was to kill the palestinians it would have been done with by now?

2. Bouncer wasn't being racist. He was stating a fact. Before 1967 the West Bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza belonged to Egypt. After Israel occupied it, both countries decided to rid themselves of those areas. Also if you take a look at Lebanon, Syria, and all the others, you'll find that the Palestinian refugees there still live in camps (and I'm talking about almost 55 years). None of those governments ever considered treating them as people. Instead they are kept by their own brothers in camps, in poverty conditions, and the reason is none of their brothers want them in their countries.

3. "You" England and France have a total of 10 million Arabs living in your countries. 6 million in France and 4 million in England. They are voters and any amateur polititian will tell you how that would affect the general attitude of a country (what's a few thousands of Jews compared to a few million Arabs when it comes down to election day??). Being from England, you have absolutly no right speaking about racism. I lived in England. 2.5 years of my life were wasted in that dump. To be honest, never in my life have I had to deal with as much racism as I had to deal with there. Even my teachers at school were racist, and went through a great effort of teaching the class about "bad Israel". I had to deal with people who wanted to beat me up just because they found out I'm not Iranian, but Israeli. I had to sit in class and hear how my history teacher compares the Israeli Kibbutz to communist Russia. I had to come to school every morning only to see that on my classroom door someone wrote "Death to Israel, long live Iran" and that no one in the school thinks this is something that should be painted over. 
I suggest you shut up about racism, take a good look in the mirror, and fix yourself before you preach to others. 
About France I have nothing to say. A country that turns a blind eye on terrorists in return for a promise that the country won't be terrorised doesn't deserve to be called "a friendly country" and belongs in the hostile countries list, but then again, that's just my point of view.

4. Just so you'll know for general knowledge, Bouncer isn't American.

----------


## physio_sport

> Being from England, you have absolutly no right speaking about racism. 
> 
> Rak_Ani


what the fuck are you talking about.
do you think im some middle aged white man who wears galasses and sits in front of a computer.
im pakistani, even tough i was born and raised in england all my life i get racism every day from police, people, shop owners etc..
i cant go 15 minutes in a car without being pulled over by police.
police treat us like where nobodys.
our people get police beatdowns on a daily basis but no one cares.we sometimes have to run away from the police.
and muslims are being held in british prisons without trial under the "terrorism act".

and you have the nerve to tell me that i know noting of racism.


oh yeah and another thing isreal didnt beat arab countries because as you know any man can pull a trigger. they where supplied really advanced weopons by the american,british and french also gave them nucleur technology. if it wasnt for them isreal wouldnt even have a stone to throw.

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## BOUNCER

OK guys this is getting tired now. Physio for the record I'm Irish, I'm 100% Irish and have never been to America. As regards my statement on no one else wanting Pals on their lands I'm speaking with the benefit of hindsight and experience. May last year I returned from another UN peace keeping mission to South Lebanon where I worked very closely with the local population helping to rebuild their land and infastructure after many years of both civil war and Israeli occupation, plus the results of the locals resistance to the IDF occupation of their lands. Throught speaking to many many Lebanese I learned that their experience of Palestinians was a bad one also. Infact in 1978 in the Israeli 'OPeration peace for Galilee' the local Lebanese population welcomed the IDF throught the borders with the Lebanese tradition of throwing rice and flowers at the IDF soldiers who invaded to protect their northern border from attack by the PLO. At the time the PLO were also terrorising the local Lebanese population and had been since 1948. The same can be said during the second IDF invasion in 1982 (Operation Litani). Anyway jumping many years on to the present day, Lebanon presently holds approx 350.000 Pal refugees who are kept in absolute deplorable conditions. Most are held in 2 small camps in southern Beirut, we used to call them 'shanty towns' when we refered to them, but thats not doing them justice. So as you can see when I speak of Arabs not wanting Pals on their lands I speak with experience.

As regards being racist, HA, thats rich coming from an Englishman. A country who's oppressed mine for over 800 years. Anyway I don't tar all Englishmen with the same brush as I have many great friends in the UK.
About my racism, I'll post a photo at the footing of this reply of me working with Lebanese children on the occasion of their christmas party in 2000. The children were orphaned by the IDF !! as a result of fighting along the Lebanese/Israeli border. Before I'm accused of siding with the IDF without question let me also say this. I've had many comrades K.I.A. during our 23 years committement to peace keeping duties in Lebanon. Mostly they were killed by the IDF, but many have been killed by the many warring factions there also (arabs). These guys faces still come to me in my dreams as my family and friends can testify.

Anyway to finish, I think both Rak_Ani and myself have both set out our positions regarding this discussion. She was a member of the peace movement in Israel, hardly a Jewish hardliner !!, and I was a nutural peace keeper in Lebanon. Physio, you on the other hand are an Englishman who's never been to the region and who gets most of his views from Sky News and the BBC. Speaking ot Sky, I'm sure you didn't miss the footage of fighting in one of the Pal Camps in Beirut during the week. 

Anyway here's the photo. And bear in mind I worked very closely with these children in their orphanage. All of whom were Muslim and they'll forever hold a very special place in my heart.

(sorry about the poor quality)

----------


## Rak_Ani

Physio,




> _Originally posted by physio_sport_ 
> [B] 
> 
> do you think im some middle aged white man who wears galasses and sits in front of a computer.
> im pakistani, even tough i was born and raised in england all my life i get racism every day from police, people, shop owners etc..
> i cant go 15 minutes in a car without being pulled over by police.
> police treat us like where nobodys.
> our people get police beatdowns on a daily basis but no one cares.we sometimes have to run away from the police.
> and muslims are being held in british prisons without trial under the "terrorism act".
> ...


Thank you for that comment. It only makes my point stronger. So now please tell me, why is it that you consider the media of such a racist country to be objective? How can you trust news reported to you by such biased people? 
Israel is a side in this conflict and even here we get more objective info than you do in England. Of course we keep hearing about our side of it, which is something your media doesn't give a shit about, but we also hear about the Palestinian side. Yep. Our news reports Palestinian deaths daily. Our news critisizes the government and army when needed, and our supreme court interferes when the law is being broken. The film shown on TV just about 2 weeks ago about the Palestinian poverty and suffering in Gaza, the daily critisism of the Israeli behaviour in the WB and Gaza in Israeli newspapers, supreme court rulings against actions and military regulations, and the Israeli human right movements who make sure the shameful stuff gets out too (ever seen a Palestinian human rights group acting against the terrorists there? I haven't). Those are all just examples of it. And of course don't forget the first hand stories we hear from our friends who come back from the WB and Gaza. Friends who serve there in the military and tell us about the conditions and situation there. So don't give me that "I'm Pakistani" shit, because it doesn't change the fact you don't know shit about our conflict. As long as you live in England, and your info comes from English media, you can just as well be Arafat himself and still know nothing about what is happening here.

And one last thing, if you're so miserable in England and feel so discriminated against, I say pack your bags and leave. You have the EU passport. Find a country you'll feel better in, and move there.....or you can move to London. It's full of Pakistanis, Indians (half the phone book is "Mr. Patel"), and lots and lots of Muslims. Heaven for you, hell for me.

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## gotenks

Haha this is rich
Some one come to your home virtually takes it over then wants to negoiate it back to you, how would any of us feel about that.
I'm talking generally here people.

Nest i suppose we'll be saying that iraq really has mass weapons  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

But remember like all shifts of power each cycle comes to an end, for me it looks like we have mass genocide going on over in little old palistine that seems to shrink with every day.

So when the shoe's on the other foot don't cry too much !
Nothing lasts forever.

heres a pic of a real terrrorist  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...168/24ygh.html

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## BOUNCER

On a happier note, happy new year to all our Jewish members.

Bouncer

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## Rak_Ani

Thank you Bouncer. Happy new year. Shana Tova. May all the good things you wish for come true. May this be a year of peace and quiet, health, prosperity, happiness and success. 
As my flatmates said, may this be a year of "osher, o'sher, and kosher". It means "happiness, wealth, and fitness". ;-)

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## David B.

You left out the option: "They're all assholes, they can blow each other to kingdom come for all I care."

--dnb

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## RockSolid

Israel is the agressor, Palestine is rite, I would do exactly what palestiains are doin in that situation.

Israel kills innocent kids throwing stones, etc etc

Israel was given land, it didnt earn the land, that bullshit story about "its the historical homeland" no ones gives a shit, if you want it fight for it, but no the UN created a rascist state Israel and the US funded those nazi criminals.

IN my opinion Israel is replicating what the Nazis did, they are greddy and want all the land they can get, they cant either have peace or land cant have both.

Im amazed an Irish man is supporting Israel, all irish people I know support Palestine including myself, this is the same shit that goes on in Northern Ireland, 

Palestine is rite, I support Palestine 100% and I dont give a shit about Israel for all i care ill be happy if Israel is nuked.

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## BOUNCER

Rock Solid I'm going to treat alof of what you said with the contempt your show of hatred deserves. As regards your making a comparision between Irishmen and Palestinians, we've never turned outselves into suicide bombers against Britain, but you'd have supported that I take it, in that light can I assume you supported the I.R.A. and the I.N.L.A.'s war against the British in Northern Ireland and the British mainland, including the deaths of thousends of innocent civilain and the killings of thousends of personnel of the British forces of law and order?.

In a laughable last paragraph you said you wouldn't give a shit if Israel was nuked. Where do you propose to shelter all those Israeli Arabs and Palestinians before their country is nuked ?. Your ignorance is amazing mate.

__________________________________________________ __________

I'll say this one final time, Yes give the West Bank and the Gaza to the Palestinians. With draw the settlers, built a proper border around them and defend it as such. Since no side would be the victors no war repairations should be paid by either side. And let the P.A. sink or swim. Mark my words that is exactly what will happen if the Pals ever get their state from an Israeli Likud party and they'll rue the day that happens.

Bouncer

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## 3Vandoo

Ah this is fun!

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> * As regards your making a comparision between Irishmen and Palestinians, we've never turned outselves into suicide bombers against Britain, but you'd have supported that I take it, in that light can I assume you supported the I.R.A. and the I.N.L.A.'s war against the British in Northern Ireland and the British mainland, including the deaths of thousends of innocent civilain and the killings of thousends of personnel of the British forces of law and order?.
> 
> In a laughable last paragraph you said you wouldn't give a shit if Israel was nuked. Where do you propose to shelter all those Israeli Arabs and Palestinians before their country is nuked ?. Your ignorance is amazing mate.
> *


Well I never said I supported anyone, but the IRA and the INLA have killed more innocent people than all palestinain groups combined. 

I dont care about Israel cause after what some sufferend in the holocaust they turn back and do the same shit to the palesetinians, they are greedy and want more land, the want to build "the greater israel", do you really think they want to give the west bank and gaza to the palestianians? nope they dont, and they dont want to annex the wb and gaza either cause that would mean 50% of the popualtion is Muslim.

They now have all jewish communites in which you have to be jewish to enter.

Im american of irish descent, and we americans support tibet rite? but did you know the tibetan buddihists are bombing civilians and military in China occupied Tibet? they are, this is human instinct, when a person steals your land thats the worst thing you can do, you have to give your life for your land.

I honestly greatly respect the Palestinans, and salute them, I hope they keep their fight alive.

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## RockSolid

And bouncer aka bouncer why would you give a christmas party to muslim children? I belive those are christians from lebanon, about 25% of lebanese are christian.

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## BOUNCER

> _Originally posted by RockSolid_ 
> *And bouncer aka bouncer why would you give a christmas party to muslim children? I belive those are christians from lebanon, about 25% of lebanese are christian.*


The reason we gave those MUSLIM children a christmas party is because we're human beings. In our 23yrs service in Lebanon it's been a long tradition to give the Tibnine orphanage a christmas party. Sometimes the orphanage holds christian children too, all regilions were welcomed and all the children regardless of religion loved those parties.

To pick another hole in your argument, the casualty figures for Northern Ireland for the 30yrs of conflict was just over 3500, ALONG way short of the palestinians figures.

You call the Jewish people greedy, yet Israel occupies .5% of the land in the middle east!, go figure!. As regards them giving the W.B. and Gaza to the Pals, it's been offered on more than one occasion, albet illegally since the W.B. was Jordanian before 1967, and Gaza was Egpytian, the Golan was Syrian and guess what rings true with all ?, they were are lands lost to Israel is wars initiated by arab countries, 'To the victor goes the spoils'.

I would have more respect for the Hamas and others if they fought purely military targets instead of targeting innocent Israeli lives. I supported an armed struggle in Northern Ireland once the nationalist groups targeted British army targets, but I couldn't for one second support them awhile they targeted innocent civilians, regardless that alot of those innocent victims were murdered as the IRA and others attacked targets of 'collatoral' value to the British government.

Can I suggest you read the following URL please;

http://www.infoclick.org/nutshell3.html

ùìåí

Bouncer

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## RockSolid

That site is bs, I can get one just like that with a Palestinian point of view.

Its funny I saw the first 4 pages, and it said there has never been a distincitive Palestinian culture or living style, but there has NEVER been a Israeli culture, these people living there dont know how the Israelites lived. Most are russians alskakavakas (sp?)

The Arabs earned their land, they fought and gained terrority with millions of deaths, with wars with the byzantines the romans, they deserve the land. The arabs started out in Arabia and gained terrority which still exists all of north africa extenting to the border of Iran, they did this, they fought.

As for the Israeli lands, which was GIVEN to them with a UN ruling, they didnt protect that land, they didnt fight for it, nothing, IT WAS GIVEN TO THEM. Thats why you get only 1% of the mid east. More Israeli propoganda your spouting.

And the giving of Barak of West Bank and Gaza was bullshit, did you see how it was divided, the west bank was divided into three regions with Israel controlling the borders of those three regions. For bullshit "security"

I dont respect a people that AFTER going through a holocaust are commiting a holocaust.

I hope the palestinains keep fighting and protect themselves from this jewish led holocaust against them.

And more and more Americans like me are realizing who the victim is who the underdog is, and its Palestine.

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## RockSolid

http://www.ummah.com/inewsletter/mas...tine/index.htm

28 PAGES OF HORROR!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope people check out those pics to see how the Palestianias are treated.

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## BOUNCER

OK RockSolid I haven't had the time to view all those pages, and yes the photos are horrific. However on the home page it shows the head of a 'Palestinian martyr' which it claims was "totally separated from his head by Israeli police and army forces", actually he blew his own head off in a suicide bombing. Tough shit I say, I wish I had more photos of suicide bombers heads like that one.

Did I see somewhere you claiming yourself to be Irish ?. Well did you know the longest held captive in Lebanon is a young Irish soldier, Kevin Joyce (18) taken captive by the PLO. The following was taken from a local news paper here;

When Irish people campaigned for Brian Keenan's release, when they petitioned the Beirut-based factions, the Syrians and the Iranians, they were constantly reminded about all the other disappeared in Lebanon. Among those disappeared whom the western media forgot was an Irishman kidnapped four years before Brian Keenan was seized. 

Twenty years ago this month, Private Kevin Joyce, then only the second soldier from the Aran Islands to serve in the Defence Forces, was kidnapped from a UN observation post close to the village of Dyar Ntar. During the storming of the UN position Joyce's comrade, Hugh Doherty from Letterkenny, was shot dead. A native of Inisheer, Joyce was taken away by a gang under the command of a Lebanese called Abu Amin Dayk, then working as a hitman for a Palestinian faction in south Lebanon. 

Kevin Joyce, who would have been 41 next May, was never seen again. Irish investigators searched in vain, seeking the help of Israelis, Palestinians, Syrians, a myriad of Lebanese armed groups. To no avail. One Irish officer, a personal friend of this writer, met with Dayk a few years after the kidnapping. Dayk was seeking UN protection from fellow Lebanese determined to exact revenge for crimes he committed as an assassin for the Palestinians. Shortly after my friend's confrontation Dayk was hanged. Rough justice, but no comfort to the Joyces on the Aran Islands. 

The last Irish battalion has a few months to find a new lead that could unearth the remains of their missing comrade. As with Jean McConville, as time goes on the odds of finding those remains and giving the Joyce family the right to bury their son get more slender. The tightknit community of Irish peacekeepers, the veterans of Lebanon, the Sinai, the Golan and the Congo, pray for a miracle breakthrough, that someone in Beirut, the Bekka, Damascus or beyond will break their silence and point to Kevin Joyce's resting place. 

Where others have brought shame to Ireland through their bombs and terror, Irish peacekeepers have been an enormous source of national pride. As we look forward to Easter and the season of resurrection, remember Kevin Joyce and his family. 
__________________________________

Still the glorious Pals now Irish guy ?.
And as horrific as those photos in your link were do you think those bodies look any different to the hundreds of innocent Israelis murdered by suicide bombers ?

But anyway RockSolid it's hard for me as a person who's obviously served over there and have seen all sides of the conflict and the horrors that entails to discuss these things with you or anyone else who are, to me, arm chair terrorists to cowardly to get up and working with the courage (or not) of your convictions do something about it. You see dot.com hardmen never did impress me.

----------


## BOUNCER

Myths of the Middle East by Joseph Farah © 2000 WorldNetDaily.com 

I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount. 

Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause. 

After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began. And for what? 

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right? 

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing. Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland? 

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem." 

That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war. 

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power. 

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. 

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. 

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough. 

What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem. Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct. 

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites." Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem. 

So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. 

Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham. 

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. 

Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism? So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. 

Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name. 

Shalom 

Bouncer

----------


## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> *Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. 
> 
> But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness.*


Firstly Joseph Farah is a anti Islamic writer, look at all his articles at world net to find out.

So what if Palesitanias are arabs? arent libyans egyptians morrocans tunisians saudis jordanians lebanese etc etc etc etc arabs also??? does that mean they dont have a distinctive culture? More BS. Israel is an invention also. There is no israeli culture nothing. It was invented in 1948.

Arabs control 99.9 percent of the mid east NO SHIT SHERLOCK HOLMES, thats cause they fought and gained it, and their population is much greater than Israelies. There are about 12 million jews in the world and 1.3 BILLION muslims, that is why this has happened, thats why they didnt have a state, they are too small of a population to have a state. How many distinctive groups are there with 12 million people? with no states??? 

Thats like saying why cant China live in taiwan and send all the taiwanise to China.

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## RockSolid

Last time I checked the Irish Republic is really pro palestinian whearas Northern Ireland is pro Israeli 

here are some murals from Ireland

http://psc.za.org/BackOfFreeDerryWal...ag_Bogside.JPG

http://psc.za.org/BackOfFreeDerryWall_Bogside.JPG

http://psc.za.org/Gable-FahanSt_Bogside1.JPG

http://psc.za.org/Gable-GlenfadaPk_Bogside1.JPG

http://www.supportpalestine.org/flags2.gif

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## BOUNCER

Well done on your research, however here's one Irish man who's pro Israeli but also willing to listen and work with both sides as I've demonstrated here. If the nationalist population in Northern Ireland have decided to indentify themselves with the Palestinians there ain't awhole lot I can do about that. I wonder is it anything to do with them having trained the PLO in the 70's or the Libyian arms shipments sent from our good friend Col. Gadaffhi or however you spell his name.

Anyway this thread is getting boring now, your arguments are making less and less sense to me. I've tried to show I'm a moderate who's willing to listen and work with both sides here, as I think I've more than demonstrated. Unlike you I've seen the horrors which both sides have perpatrated against each other, I've lived among both Arab Christians and Muslims alike, and I've lived along side Israeli jews and arabs alike. I can't make this any easier for you to understand so here's one last attempt, after which I'll let you have the last word and the thread is closed (I can't be fairer than that).

My support and belief in Israel will not be shaken, neither will my will for a peacefull settlement there be. I mourn the deaths of everyone involved there, and believe that the Palestinains should have their Pal state and the settlements both be stopped and the settlers taken out. I can indentify with the mistrust both sides feel for each other too, as I've lived with the same mistrust here in Ireland all my life, something I suspect you haven't had to.

Over to you Rock and then in the interest of peace here on the board I'm closing the thread because it's just you and I involved here now and it's leading no where.

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## BOUNCER

> _Originally posted by RockSolid_ 
> *Last time I checked the Irish Republic is really pro palestinian whearas Northern Ireland is pro Israeli 
> 
> here are some murals from Ireland
> 
> http://psc.za.org/BackOfFreeDerryWal...ag_Bogside.JPG
> 
> http://psc.za.org/BackOfFreeDerryWall_Bogside.JPG
> 
> ...



WOW how did I miss how ILL RESEARCHED you actually were. I've just noticed you say that the Irish republic is Pro Pal and that Northern Ireland is Pro Israel and you tried to demonstrate that by showing murals depicting each sides support of the PLO or Israel. Everyone of those Murals are in Northern Ireland, 4 of which are in the Bogside, County Derry. But you have the right idea, lately the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland have been showing their support of the Palestinians and the Loyalist side have been showing their support for Israel. But those people are just using the PLO and Israel as symbols against each other, much as they do their support for Celtic and Rangers. Can I assume then when you said in another thread you were Irish your actually Irish-American ?, because your views on Ireland here are totally alien to any real Irish person and looks more like the propaganda some misguided Irish-Americans have swallowed for years!.

----------


## David B.

> _Originally posted by RockSolid_ 
> *
> 
> There is no israeli culture nothing. It was invented in 1948.
> 
> *


Were there any native Hebrew speakers prior to 1948?

--dnb

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## Rak_Ani

Oy oy oy....RockSolid, so much crap out of such a small mind? Before I deal with you, I just wanna reply to David B. David, my grandfather is over 80 years old, and his father was raised up speaking Hebrew. Is that prior to 1948 enough for you?

And now to you RockSolid:

_"The Arabs earned their land, they fought and gained terrority with millions of deaths, with wars with the byzantines the romans, they deserve the land."_ 

Exactly. And the Romans stole that land from the Israelis. The Israel of today isn't what was declaired by the UN. The Arabs weren't willing to accept the Israeli state so they started a war, and lost both the war and some land. Then followed some more wars which were started by Arabs and in which land was lost by the Arabs to Israel. So what are the Palestinians whining about? They lost the land in the same way they earned it. So it was ok to conquer while they were winning, but isn't ok when they lose? 

_"I dont respect a people that AFTER going through a holocaust are commiting a holocaust."_  

And I pitty people that can't tell the difference between such two different things. If Israel wanted to commit a holocaust, believe me, not one Palestinian would be left alive by now in the WB or Gaza.
But then again, you're American, and much sympathy as I have for your country, you've never been known to be even close to being educated when it comes to anything that is not inside your USA and occupied Mexican territory. That's why your fellow countrymen have admitted to me that they did not know the difference between Israel and Afganistan until I explained it to them. That's why I was accused of being an "Israeli bitch that is hidding Bin Laden"....


About the pictures you posted, well, this cheap propaganda might work on Americans, but people who were educated to think, won't fall for this shit. For starters, the picture of the head with no body, that was a suicide bomber, not some innocent Palestinian killed by Israelis. The head was disconnected from the body during the explosion he himself made, by doing so he killed innocent Israelis. Don't argue with me on that one. It was last summer and I remember it.
On page 4, the picture of "lena rizk" on the hospital bed....You're not a Hebrew speaker, but I am, and the writting on the bed is a part of the Hebrew word "Health" (Ministery of Health is the complete sentance). So this girl supposedly cold bloodedly shot by IDF was evactuated to an Israeli hospital, and treated by Israeli doctors, and I have this strange feeling that the ones who evactuated her are Israeli (maybe even the girl is Israeli. Lena is after all a Russian name). So tell me, if the IDF wanted her dead, why would they take her to an Israeli hospital?
In another picture an Israeli soldier is shown "pointing a gun" at a Palestinian man's head. The problem with the picture is that the soldier isn't looking anywhere near the man. It's so easy to copy and paste....

Your "proof pictures" prove nothing. A face picture of some dead guy doesn't prove who killed him, and under what circumstance. If you would like to supply some real proof, please do so soon.

The WTC attack wasn't done by Israelis.
The joyous dancing in the streets after the WTC attack wasn't done by Israelis.
And the next terror attack on the US also won't be done by Israelis.
Remember that when you chose who to hate.

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## David B.

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> *David, my grandfather is over 80 years old, and his father was raised up speaking Hebrew. Is that prior to 1948 enough for you?*


Thanks for the information. Where did they live?

--dnb

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## RockSolid

Bouncer I lived in Cavan in the Ireland Republic, and they used to walk on Israeli flags and are really pro pal, Im American but I lived in Ireland 10 years of my life.

Im 20 years old, and from 10 to 20 I lived in the US. I travel to Ireland almost every 2 to 3 years.

Almost every Irish person I have talked to is pro palestian or really doesnt care about the conflict cause of problems of their own.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> *Oy oy oy....RockSolid, so much crap out of such a small mind? Before I deal with you, I just wanna reply to David B. David, my grandfather is over 80 years old, and his father was raised up speaking Hebrew. Is that prior to 1948 enough for you?
> 
> *


So what? he never known a Israel before 1948, his grandfather didnt know of Israel, his grandfathers grandfather didnt know of Israel or their customs. Its just made up at this moment. 

The currect Israelis are not living as the Israelites did. Cut your crap.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> *Exactly. And the Romans stole that land from the Israelis. The Israel of today isn't what was declaired by the UN. The Arabs weren't willing to accept the Israeli state so they started a war, and lost both the war and some land. Then followed some more wars which were started by Arabs and in which land was lost by the Arabs to Israel. So what are the Palestinians whining about? They lost the land in the same way they earned it. So it was ok to conquer while they were winning, but isn't ok when they lose? 
> *


They didnt steal land, they conquered like ARMIES DID BACK THEN, if you wanted land fight for it, build a economy and build an army and FIGHT.

Never in the history of mankind has a state been GIVEN to a people without earning it.

It was giving after PITY after the holocaust.

I dont blame Arabs although they are stupid in how they handle it, I dont blame them for attacking Israel, If i was an Arab leader I would too.

The jews were looking for states in uganda, Texas, Canada, Iraq, Libya, they really didnt want to be near jerusalem, but later the zionists chose the Jerusalem area after likign it the best.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> *
> And I pitty people that can't tell the difference between such two different things. If Israel wanted to commit a holocaust, believe me, not one Palestinian would be left alive by now in the WB or Gaza.
> But then again, you're American, and much sympathy as I have for your country, you've never been known to be even close to being educated when it comes to anything that is not inside your USA and occupied Mexican territory. That's why your fellow countrymen have admitted to me that they did not know the difference between Israel and Afganistan until I explained it to them. That's why I was accused of being an "Israeli bitch that is hidding Bin Laden"....
> 
> *


Thats funny, lol, you spout Israel proponda, "if israel wanted to commit a holocaust it could?" are you out of your mind, if that happened the world would be over, the muslims who are a huge 1.3 billion group with a love for their religion that I respect will finish Israel of easily. lol

Russian cannot deafeat the hopeless checyans for gods sake. LOL If it becomes a guerilla warfare the muslims will win, they are crazy I wouldnt want to mess with them. Those palis with NO WEAPONS except themselves are doing a pretty good job proteting their dignisty.

Now you making fun of Americans? hahahahahhahaha, shamlesss, I always say the Jews should be praying to the US not god, cause it is because of them that they jews even exist today, It was because of the US you got you land, It was because of the US Hilter didnt slaughter more of the jews, Its cause the US Israel didnt get destoryed by Arabs, so ungrateful pray to the US of A.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> *The WTC attack wasn't done by Israelis.
> The joyous dancing in the streets after the WTC attack wasn't done by Israelis.
> And the next terror attack on the US also won't be done by Israelis.
> Remember that when you chose who to hate.*


Those pictures prove something to me, maybe not to cold blodded Isrealies.

The WTC attacks on the great America was done by people who did it cause of our STUPID support for Israel.

We should be friends with arabs instead of the Jews so we can have CHEAP GAS and NO TERROR that would be a nice world, instead of being hated on by a people who are willing to die for their cause, 

And wat does Israel do for the US? NOTHING, with 11 billion dollars in aid they are askign for moer?????? what have they done NOTHING!!!!

Shameful.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> *I mourn the deaths of everyone involved there, and believe that the Palestinains should have their Pal state and the settlements both be stopped and the settlers taken out. I can indentify with the mistrust both sides feel for each other too, as I've lived with the same mistrust here in Ireland all my life, something I suspect you haven't had to.
> *


I agree with this too Bouncer. But its funny people cant agree to this issue on the internet imagine in real life.

But these days Israelies more and more dont support a palestianian state and that gets me enraged, oh well.

If you close it, it has been a good discussion  :Smilie:

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## Rak_Ani

David,
My grandfather lives in Israel and was born here. His father lived here and was also born here (here means Israel).

RockSolid,

"The currect Israelis are not living as the Israelites did."

You wouldn't expect us to live like the Israelis lived 3000 years ago, would you? And I'm sure you don't claim to be living like the Americans lived 200 years ago or the Irish lived 500 years ago. Things change. Cultures change and develope. But history, archiology and religion (if you are religious) all show that there's an Israeli culture that goes way back.

I'll ignore your urgent need of a history lesson on the Middle East, and just rephrase my point about winning lands. Why is it ok for Arabs to win land in war, but not ok for Israel to win land in war? And don't give me that "you were given Israel by the UN" crap because you surely aren't THAT ignorant. I'm pretty sure even you heard about the Israeli war of independence and what followed.

"Thats funny, lol, you spout Israel proponda, "if israel wanted to commit a holocaust it could?" are you out of your mind, if that happened the world would be over, the muslims who are a huge 1.3 billion group with a love for their religion that I respect will finish Israel of easily. lol"

1. Yes, Israel could. Especially with an idiot like Sharon in government.
2. If the Muslims thought for a minute they can beat Israel, they wouldn't wait for some excuse to start a war. The only reason they don't attack is not because they don't have an excuse to, but because they know they will not win.


"I always say the Jews should be praying to the US not god"

That's just one of your problems. If you would for one minute take your head out of your asses and let some oxygen enter your brain you might realise that the money you have can buy you some good knowledge. Instead of investing it in a better grip on the world's balls you might want to invest it in some good counter terrorism education from Israel, and then maybe next time Bin Laden decides to pop out of his hole, you will be able to prevent or at least minimize the damage.

"We should be friends with arabs instead of the Jews so we can have CHEAP GAS and NO TERROR"

History lesson:
The Islamic Brothers was the first Islamic organization to "dislike" the western world. It was formed long before Israel became a state, and the reason the organization was against the west was that American oil companies were "invading" the middle east. So in fact this whole "Islam vs West" thing started before Israel was formed.

Now you see Rock? You're getting so much info from an Israeli, so don't say you're not getting your tax money's worth.

 :Afro:  

I would have provided some educational links, but I figured I'd be wasting my time.....

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> Why is it ok for Arabs to win land in war, but not ok for Israel to win land in war?


Im giving you the truth not crap, the State of Israel was declared by the UN, as an Independent state, they didnt win it in war, if they did it would be a differnt story.




> 2. If the Muslims thought for a minute they can beat Israel, they wouldn't wait for some excuse to start a war. The only reason they don't attack is not because they don't have an excuse to, but because they know they will not win.


No they cant, why is that you ask? its cause of the US, if Israel didnt have the US support it would have been done in 1948. Many Jewish genrals in the US army went and helped Israel, weapons were rushed to Israel. So if it wasnt for the US they could.




> That's just one of your problems. If you would for one minute take your head out of your asses and let some oxygen enter your brain you might realise that the money you have can buy you some good knowledge.


Yeah the DUMB country of the US of A, the DUMB COUNTRY that made and supplied IDIOTS with f-16's f-14's Apaches so that they can attack civilian areas yeah america is dumb, this dumb country gives israel 6 to 11 billion dollars a year, its this dumb country that saved Israel, this dumb country is the ONLY reason Israel exists today.

Recently Israel asked the dumb country of America for MORE money, lol, why? cause they need it. 

USA is the messiah.




> History lesson:
> The Islamic Brothers was the first Islamic organization to "dislike" the western world. It was formed long before Israel became a state, and the reason the organization was against the west was that American oil companies were "invading" the middle east. So in fact this whole "Islam vs West" thing started before Israel was formed.


Its the Muslim Brotherhood, not Islamic Brothers, good education you got there with AMERICAN MONEY, lol

And the Muslim/Islamic Brotherhood werent a terrorist group, it was founded in the late 1920's for a pan arab state which rejected western influence, it was never going against the west, it wanted the west to stay out of its areas. It branced out into differnt terrorist groups after the CREATION of Israel.

Islamic terrorism was started after the creation of Israel.

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## David B.

> _Originally posted by Rak_Ani_ 
> *David,
> My grandfather lives in Israel and was born here. His father lived here and was also born here (here means Israel).
> 
> *


If your grandfather is 80 years old, he can't have been born in Israel, which was established as a state in 1947.

Back to the subject of native speakers of Hebrew -- wasn't Hebrew, as a language, "re-constructed" in the late 1800s or early 1900s by by the Zionist movement? I was under the impression that after almost two millennia of diaspora, most Jews either spoke the local languages of their areas, or amalgams such as Yiddish or Ladino. If this is a misapprehension, I'll be glad to be corrected.

If there were pockets of Jews who retained Hebrew as their native tongue, I'd like to know where they were. Please note: this is not a challenge, I'm not trying to dispute you, I really just want to know.

--dnb

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## BOUNCER

David from my understanding and reading of it Hebrew was almost a dead language with the imigrants which had to be 'reborn' in a sense. But thats happened in alot of other countries whose people have been persecuted. Rock Solid appears to have set himself up as an authority on Ireland and it's culture so he'll agree with me I'm sure on how the British almost killed off Gaelic as Ireland native language. But like Israel we always had a very small number of Gaelic speakers willing to teach the language and so keep it alive, however we we're as success as Israel and I appauld them for that.

Rock Solid, I'm sick off hearing people banging on about America's backing of Israel with mention of F16's, F14, Apaches etc.. On the eve of Israels foundation the country was attacked from all sides by arab countries using hardware supplied by your (America's) long enemy, Russia, and Russia has continued to equipe and financially back most Arab countries since. During the 1982 operation Peace for Galilee invasion of Lebanon Syria suffered such humiliating losses to Israeli hardware (Kfire jets and Markava MBT's, Israeli made!) that Russia gave them free T55's and T72 MBT's, plus free attack aircraft. I've personally been attacked by Amal and Hizbollah fighters using soviet armaments, and during my service in the middle east in 1988 I was witness to the civil war there where mass destruction was caused by Russian supplied military hardware. Unlike the Americans who sold their hardware to Israel to defend itself the Russians gave their hardward free, to be used by Arabs in Lebanon, and Northern Israeli borders testing grounds!. So I wish Americans would stop bleating about that one.

"No they cant, why is that you ask? its cause of the US, if Israel didnt have the US support it would have been done in 1948. Many Jewish genrals in the US army went and helped Israel, weapons were rushed to Israel. So if it wasnt for the US they could." Rock thats how badly researched your information is again. In 1948 Israeli's MBT's were mainly WWII French tanks and British supplied Sherman tanks, I can't remember what aircraft they used, they also bought old WWII M2 and M3 half tracks from arms dealers in Europe plus various other second hand WWII equipement to defend themselves against Russian supplied hard ware crewed by Russian trained personal. But it was the Israeli superior fighting ability which won the war, and many after. 

Anyway Rock whilst we've tried to teach you through facts and truths you've continued to spew propaganda and lie's with a stupid ass web site which can't even get simple photos right let alone anything else. And like I've said, have the courage of your convictions and do something constructive about your feelings, I have, Rak_Ani has by living through it and serving in the IDF. You on the other hand sitting idealy by and do nothing. I'd have more respect for the a Palestinian gunman taking on the might of the IDF than I could for someone sitting comfortable by in the USA and doing nothing.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> [B]Rock Solid, I'm sick off hearing people banging on about America's backing of Israel with mention of F16's, F14, Apaches etc..


Israel wouldnt exist militarly or economically today if it wasnt for the US, and you know that.




> Rock thats how badly researched your information is again. In 1948 Israeli's MBT's were mainly WWII French tanks and British supplied Sherman tanks, I can't remember what aircraft they used, they also bought old WWII M2 and M3 half tracks from arms dealers in Europe plus various other second hand WWII equipement to defend themselves against Russian supplied hard ware crewed by Russian trained personal. But it was the Israeli superior fighting ability which won the war, and many after.


no need to get defensive and start name calling here, but the US became the PRINCIPAL arms dealer to the US in 1967, I agree, but in 1948 the US supplied free arms and intelligence to Israel.




> Anyway Rock whilst we've tried to teach you through facts and truths you've continued to spew propaganda and lie's


Anyway [Bouncer] whilst ive tried to teach you through facts and truths you've continued to spew propaganda and lie's




> And like I've said, have the courage of your convictions and do something constructive about your feelings, I have, Rak_Ani has by living through it and serving in the IDF. You on the other hand sitting idealy by and do nothing. I'd have more respect for the a Palestinian gunman taking on the might of the IDF than I could for someone sitting comfortable by in the USA and doing nothing.


How dare you say that without even knowing me, My brother married a palestinian christian girl and visted her family in Ramallah, 3 years later they visted again with a 2 year old child that they had concived, the child would not make it back to the US, cause the child was shot by a Israeli soldier, and the place was not in "intifada" mode at that time. So dont give me crap of sitting comfortably in the USA. If I could join a palestianian organization and shoot Israeli soldiers I would be the first one to sign up. The lawsuit is still pending against them, with appeals and checks.

Before this I used to wonder why these palestinaians are willing to give their lives to kill a few people, after I knew exaclty why, and I support them in whatever they do.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by David B._ 
> *
> 
> If your grandfather is 80 years old, he can't have been born in Israel, which was established as a state in 1947.
> --dnb*


good point

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## BOUNCER

So Rock why haven't you joined a Palestinian force and kill some IDF soldiers ?, because that would take you out of your comfortable surrounds in the USA.
As for your Brothers baby I'm terrible sorry to hear that, but I fail to see how the poor childs death has kept you from 'doing your bit' for a free Palestinian state.

"Before this I used to wonder why these palestinaians are willing to give their lives to kill a few people, after I knew exaclty why, and I support them in whatever they do." And I'm sorry to hear that a member of anabolicreview supports terror.

As you said earlier this was a good discussion, but it's desended into farce now. While I said I'd let you have the last say here, I simply can not allow another post in here supporting terror, no matter the reason. We've all said our bit, the pole shows a majority for the Palestinians so at this stage I can not do fairer than close the thread. I'm sorry to have to do this but I simply will not allow someone who supports suicide bombings against innocents to continue with this thread, it's a shame because it means Rak_Ani and David_b now can't have their say, and I've a feeling David was going to contribute a great deal of educated discussion and I would have like to have read Rak_Ani's view as an Israeli living through the troubles there. You (Rock) are of course welcome to post another thread here, but this time keep your backing of terrorists out of it please.

CLOSED.

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