# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Israeli takeover of the US - Pat Buchanan

## RockSolid

article by a great american mind

*Ariel Sharons Shakedown*

by Pat Buchanan

Tough Love for United, exclaimed the Wall Street Journal, as it congratulated Uncle Sam for stiffing United Airlines plea for $1.8 billion in loan guarantees. Rebuffed, the beloved old airline had to declare its bankruptcy.


Its all for the best, the Journal assures us, maybe this tough love rejection will start a new government precedent, or at least we can dream. Fine. May we now expect the Journal to call on Mr. Bush to reject the $10 billion in loan guarantees demanded by Ariel Sharon? Dont bet on it.


Yet, Sharons demand is astonishing in its audacity. California and New York face huge budget shortfalls. The U.S. Treasury is running a deficit nearing $200 billion. Yet, Sharon, who ignored Bush when the president publicly called on him to pull his army out of West Bank cities, is demanding that U.S. taxpayers fork over $4 billion in new military aid and agree to pay off $10 billion Israel intends to borrow should Israel decide to default.


Why should we do this? What does America get out of this? What has all the $100 billion in aid we have shoveled out to Israel bought us, other than ingratitude and the enmity of the Arab world?


While Israel has a first-rate military, it is of no use to us. In Desert Storm, Bush I had to bribe Yitzhak Shamir with $5 billion in aid, $400 million in loan guarantees, and Patriot missiles to stay out of the fighting, lest Israeli intervention dynamite our coalition. Journalists and diplomats alike, returning from the Mideast, attest that our almost-blind support of Israel is a major cause of the anti-Americanism that is sweeping the Islamic world.


When the price of Israel could be paid in dollars alone, $3 billion a year, most members of Congress chose to pony up rather than face the retribution of an Israeli Lobby that has in its trophy case the scalps of two chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, J. William Fulbright and Chuck Percy.


But now the price of the Israeli connection has begun to rise. U.S. weapons technology given to Israel has been sold to China. Only direct U.S. intervention prevented Israel from selling Beijing AWACS technology. The Patriot missile, the Phoenix air-to-air missile, the Lavi fighter, based on the F-16, have all been sold to Beijing.


In the Reagan era, Israel had the loathsome Jonathan Pollard, whom it suborned into treason, loot our innermost national security secrets, some of which are believed to have been traded to Moscow. Israel refuses to return the roomful of documents it stole and has pressured presidents for Pollards release so he can be brought to Israel where he is a hero.


Now Mr. Sharon has handed us Israels bill for abstaining from war with Iraq while President Bush is at maximum political risk. Not since 1957, when Dwight Eisenhower ordered Ben-Gurion to get his army out of Sinai, has a U.S. president faced down an Israeli Prime Minister.


To his credit, the presidents father tried. In 1991, having driven Iraq out of Kuwait, with his approval at 70 percent, Bush I was asked by Shamir for $10 billion in loan guarantees to bring a million Russian Jews to Israel. Bush assented, on one condition: Shamir must not settle them on the West Bank and must stop expanding settlements.


Shamir rejected the condition, and the Lobby went to work. Bush warned he would veto the guarantees. An Israeli minister called him an anti-Semite. While Shamir was defeated in June of 1992, Bush, his own election in trouble, eventually gave in and gave Israel the loan guarantees. Who was the Housing Minister who announced new settlements even as Bush I was denouncing them? Ariel Sharon.


Sharon now wants to repeat Israels victory over Bushs father by making the son give Israel $4 billion in hardware and $10 billion in new loan guarantees as Sharons price for permitting us to crush Iraq while he holds Americas coat. It is a shakedown: Ariel Sharons big sting


What should Bush do? Tell Sharon the loan guarantees will not even be taken up until he begins to dismantle all the settlements he has begun to build since George W. took office. And if Sharon attempts to roll him in Congress, he, Bush, will go to the country and roll Sharon.


In short, stand up for U.S. national interests and declare Americas independence. Israel may be our ally in the war on terror. We are not Israels ally in its war on the Palestinians. Our commitment is to Israels security, not its settlements, which are the cause of the intifada.


Sharons opponent in Januarys election, General Mitzna, has agreed to negotiate with the Palestinians on the basis of Camp David and to begin withdrawals from the West Bank and Gaza. If Israeli politicians can stand up to Sharon, why cannot U.S. presidents? If members of the Knesset can refuse to follow the suicidal path of Sharon & Netanyahu, why is Congress so cowardly?

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## RockSolid

Article from FREAKMONSTER from a differnt board
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The observation that Zionists dominate the American media, government, academia, and Hollywood has been made by many prominent Americans and is easily verifiable by public information. 


Henry Ford said this: 

_"If after having elected their man or group, obedience is not rendered to the Jewish control, then you speedily hear of "scandals" and "investigations" and "impeachments" for the removal of the disobedient. Usually a man with a "past" proves the most obedient instrument, but even a good man can often be tangled up in campaign practices that compromise him. It has been commonly known that Jewish manipulation of American election campaigns have been so skillfully handled, that no matter which candidate was elected, there was ready made a sufficient amount of evidence to discredit him in case his Jewish masters needed to discredit him."_ 

Charles Lindbergh said this: 

_"Their greatest danger to this country lies in the Jewish ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our government._ 


Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff under Ronald Reagan said this: 

_"I've never seen a President -- I don't care who he is -- stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens certainly don't have any idea what goes on."_ * I Love this one, VERY TRUE* 

While a guest on ABC's Face the Nation, William Fulbright - US Senator and Chairman of the US Foreign Relations committee - said this before a national television audience: 

_"Israel controls the United States Senate. We should be more concerned about the United States' interests."_ 

Nationally syndicated columnist and former presidential candidate Patrick Buchanan said: 

_"The United States Congress is Israeli occupied territory."_ 


And US religious leader Billy Graham and President Richard Nixon once had the following exchange, which was caught on tape: 

_GRAHAM: The Jewish stranglehold on the media has got to be broken or this country's going down the drain". 
NIXON: "You believe that?" 
GRAHAM: "Yes, sir." 
NIXON: "Oh boy. So do I. I can't ever say that but I do believe it"_ * This was on tape and proven true*

--------------------------

Words From Great American Minds.

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## Rich8888

You would be one dangerous MF if you what the f-ck you were talking about.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rich8888_ 
> *You would be one dangerous MF if you what the f-ck you were talking about.*


can you rephrase that, doesnt make sense.

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## BOUNCER

Rock solid I just quickly scanned through your piece there. However I think there's a different threat to world peace at the moment. It comes in two form's. First President Bush, and second the Islamic threat. It wasn't Jews who flew the planes into the WTC, and it wasn't Jews who only last week tried setting up a Ricin toxin factory in the UK, but thankfully were caught. Jews haven't hijacked any planes or boats in the last 50 yrs, 'nor have they attacked athletes in an olympic games etc etc etc the list unfortunetly goes on. I've known lots of really fine upstanding Muslims over the years, but really you can't blame the west's fear of 'the sword of Islam'.
It makes me laugh when Arabs talk about the Jew influence on American politics. When OPEC and the Arab oil producing countries have a strangle hold on my bollox.

Well your round 'Rock Solid', hey mate, I'm starting to get to like these debates, lol. Once no offence is given or taken guys.

Bouncer

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> *Rock solid I just quickly scanned through your piece there. However I think there's a different threat to world peace at the moment. It comes in two form's. First President Bush, and second the Islamic threat. It wasn't Jews who flew the planes into the WTC, and it wasn't Jews who only last week tried setting up a Ricin toxin factory in the UK, but thankfully were caught. Jews haven't hijacked any planes or boats in the last 50 yrs, 'nor have they attacked athletes in an olympic games etc etc etc the list unfortunetly goes on. I've known lots of really fine upstanding Muslims over the years, but really you can't blame the west's fear of 'the sword of Islam'.
> It makes me laugh when Arabs talk about the Jew influence on American politics. When OPEC and the Arab oil producing countries have a strangle hold on my bollox.
> 
> Well your round 'Rock Solid', hey mate, I'm starting to get to like these debates, lol. Once no offence is given or taken guys.
> 
> Bouncer*


Trust me on this its not only Arabs that talk about Jewish Influence on America, most Americans have a feeling of it, that is why I pasted the second article, but many policiticians are scared to put their views out, cause these days anything, I mean anything negative about the Jews people and people call you anti-semitic.

The Islamic World can learn a thing or two from the Jewish World, Islamic people with their religoius fevor turn to terrorism for a quick solution, they dont have world domination like they once did, and they no longer have a large powerful army, so terrorism is the only aspect that gives them a sense of FALSE pride. 

Instead what the Islamic World should do, (And I notice they have started already) is become like alot of Jewish people, go into politics, the media, make something of yourself, create a lobby, that is the only way people will respect a person Money and Power. The jewish people have a history of doing well in that aspect. 

When Russia was a superpower the Jewish people stuck to Russia and migrated to Russia, then the decline of Russia came about, When Europe was a power the Jewish people stuck to the Europe and then the decline of Europe came, then came America the only superpower, and the Jewish people are coming to America and have Major influcnce on polictics and media. Its a systemaic way of hanging around the rich, and helping your own people. Politics and media are a tool to make a person belive in your aspect.

In the six day war, the jews in south africa raised 3 - 4 billion dollars in 2 - 4 days, for the six say war!!!

People dont know this but there are more muslims than jews in the United states right now, but most are first or second generation, give it about another 50 - 100 years, the scales might be balanced in the US about the muslim - jewish issue.

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## RockSolid

About America, its not in Americas interest to support Israel. Its in Americas interest to support the Arabs. But the Jewish lobby is too strong today in the US today to support the Arabs.

The question I like to ask is, What has Israel done for America ever?

Answer is quite simple, Nothing.

As Buchanan said, Israel is quite Useless.

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## Rich8888

Rich, I edited your post here. If RockSolid, Big Palo and I can debate these things while standing on opposite sides of the fence without resorting to name calling I expect the same of others.

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## Rich8888

Balance the scales....like shear numbers of human beings will balance the numbers!!! You refer to the six day war. What was the balance of numbers and the odds against Israel then!!!! Numbers!?? My friend it is about intellect, morals and the perservation of the democratic good for ALL MANKIND. If you believe the Muslim and Islamic viewpoints of the world are in theme with or in line with the good of mankind, peace, diplomacy and growth of democrcay...think again. What the hell are you thinking??!!! Did you side with the North Vietnamese, North Korea, Iraq, Kohmani, soviet Union during the Cold War and all their allies? THINK!!

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## BOUNCER

Rock getting back to the sound bites with Nixon, don't look too much into those. Didn't President Ragan once say in a sound bite "Lets nuke the Russians"!.

As regards your comments regarding the Jews following wealth. Ask anyone in Europe now suffering with Muslim refugee's who it is on the money trail. Here in Europe and particularly in the UK and Ireland we can't say a word against the muslims asylum seekers otherwise WE'RE labelled by them as racists, so that comment as go both ways.

So the Jewish lobby is strong in America, big deal it's only Muslims I hear cry about it because it's a big deal to them. The Irish lobby have a similar influence, much to Englands annoyance as it was the same Irish lobby supplying arms and money to the IRA and other Irish nationalist paramilitary groups. But I never heard an Arab complain about that. My point is that everyone wants a bite of the American pie and fuck everyone else.

I don't expect the muslim lobby in the USA to get strong anytime soon because they really shot themselves in the foot with 9/11. When muslim terrorists flew the planes into the WTC it was only by the grace of god that only slightly over 3 thousend were murdered because the torrorists didn't give a rats ass that it could have been as high as 50,000. As I posted in another thread, Mohommed Atta the pilot of the first plane was a convicted torrorist in Israel who was released under protest after demands by the American government. He was given asylum in America and repaid American kindness with 9/11 so don't expect a much sympathy in America right now.

So your question, "What has israel ever done for America?", I'll tell you what they haven't done!!!.

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## Rich8888

Bouncer...Bro, no disrespect to you or anyone on our board. I am a contributing member of our board and will continue to be.....HOWEVER...you choose to edit my comments, because you say we shouldn't resort to name calling. Tell me bro, what is the difference in posting anti-semetic info, under the guise of a general debate on world issues. Why do you not choose to edit that info rather than promulgate it and allow it to spread????? The word moron is so much more easily understood, bro.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rich8888_ 
> *Tell me bro, what is the difference in posting anti-semetic info, under the guise of a general debate on world issues.*


Rich just argue the points and dont call information anti-semetic. Both articles are anti-israeli, not anti-jewish. Honest to god, my three best friends are Russian Jews, im far from being anti-semitic. And another thing the first two articles are not my opinion, I copied and pasted it from a differnt "bodybuilding" board.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Rich8888_ 
> *My friend it is about intellect, morals and the perservation of the democratic good for ALL MANKIND. If you believe the Muslim and Islamic viewpoints of the world are in theme with or in line with the good of mankind, peace, diplomacy and growth of democrcay...think again.*


Did I ever say that, I belive most islamic or arab governments are corrupt and basically not good for their OWN people or other people around them. They put themselves in the position they are in now. Monarchy is against Islamic values from my understanding, yet many Islamic governments are run by kings and queens and all that other crap.

People dont realized that all the Islamic governments even Saudi Arabia and Iran are not old countries, they were formed only about 80 years ago, they have alot to learn. Taking some ideas and values from Israel woudnt be a bad idea as I said before.

There is no way for Israel or the Arabs to live in a war state forever. Peace must be accomplished after good leadership is established, no peace can be achieved with criminal leaders like Sharon and Arafat.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> *I don't expect the muslim lobby in the USA to get strong anytime soon because they really shot themselves in the foot with 9/11. When muslim terrorists flew the planes into the WTC it was only by the grace of god that only slightly over 3 thousend were murdered because the torrorists didn't give a rats ass that it could have been as high as 50,000.*


Americans are smart enough to reconize a differnece between good muslims and terrorist muslims. Most Americans dont link them together. Even thought it hurts, Just couple of decades ago, Japanese Americans were put in "camps", now they contribute alot, and have a lot of influce in Economics.

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## BOUNCER

> _Originally posted by Rich8888_ 
> *Bouncer...Bro, no disrespect to you or anyone on our board. I am a contributing member of our board and will continue to be.....HOWEVER...you choose to edit my comments, because you say we shouldn't resort to name calling. Tell me bro, what is the difference in posting anti-semetic info, under the guise of a general debate on world issues. Why do you not choose to edit that info rather than promulgate it and allow it to spread????? The word moron is so much more easily understood, bro.*


Rich just let me put you straight on one rule, we have a very strict no flame policy toward both Mods, Vets and other members. Your post that I chose to edit simple said "your a moron", so I didn't take anything out of context in reading your post. As I said, both RockSolid, Big Physio and myself debate these Jewish/Muslim/Arab/Israeli posts almost weekly and and haven't resorted to calling each other Morons.

OK RockSolid, I read everything your saying and I agree with alot of it. Muslims and Arabs as a whole must become more progressive if theu hope to be seen as on level par with the West. I'm sorry if that sounds bad, but thats the reality. I seen more or less the same situation in Lebanon where Lebanese christians would threat their Muslim counter parts like shit.

Anyway Rock, take care.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> *I'm sorry if that sounds bad, but thats the reality. I seen more or less the same situation in Lebanon where Lebanese christians would threat their Muslim counter parts like shit.
> *


Yeah, definetly, Lebanese Christians treat the muslims like trash, and the Muslims treat the Lebanese Christians with trash. This stuff happens all over the world, differnces cause conflict, Ireland is a good example.

The funny thing is, these acts go against christinity and islam, but people still do horrible things.

These issues are controversial, but dissusion about this is good.

Peace

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## saboudian

Ok i understand all this stuff sort of, but in the very first post in buchanan's article, i think u guys might be missing the point or maybe its really me. We give Israel such incredible amounts of money and support, yet they want even more. I don't understand why israel needs even more money from the US who has an absolutely incredible national debt as it is and is still continuing run a defecit. 

I would think that by all the types of support we have given israel in the past, such as monetary or compromising our relations with the rest of the middle east, they would realize that we are already giving them a generous amount of support and can't afford to just keep forkin money out when we are in debt and have tons of problems ourselves. I think 

Buchanan was maybe trying to say

" Hey look we're giving them shitloads of $, we're not getting a whole lot back from them, and it stands that we have nothing more to gain by giving them even more $ "

C'mon guys, the dollar only stretches so far. If u just took out a huge loan to buy a car, would u just start handing out money to your friends every time they asked you. You have to draw the line somewhere.

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## BOUNCER

saboudian I'm not entirely sure I understand your reply here. But it's a fact that the USA gives Egypt almost the same amount of money per head of population as it does Israel, and Saudi (one of the richest M.E. countries) even more. So if your argument is about the amount of money the US gives Israel it's a pointless argument. 

During the peace discussions with Edud Baraks Labour government the Israeli Knesset along with the USA gave the Palestinian authorities repairations to the tune of millions with the promise of billions to follow untill that unfortunet chain of events in Sept. 2000 lead to the second intifada. So the P.A. can't complain about money, or the amount given to a democratic governement like Israel. And speaking of democracy, why did Arafat postpone more general elections indefinitely ?. Remember the people in the West complaining about US backing of Israel do so from the luxury of a democratic country where their allowed to do so. If they wish let them move to an undemocratic country and see how comfortable they are in their views.



Bouncer

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> *saboudian I'm not entirely sure I understand your reply here. But it's a fact that the USA gives Egypt almost the same amount of money per head of population as it does Israel, and Saudi (one of the richest M.E. countries) even more. So if your argument is about the amount of money the US gives Israel it's a pointless argument. 
> *


Belive it or not this issue was disscused on Buchanans show on MSNBC. And the main reason we give Egypt aid is cause they signed a peace treaty with Israel and are peaceful with Israel. If they arent peaceful with Israel they dont get the money. That to me counts as more aid to Israel. 

And I think you mistaken on the Saudi point, the US gives almost NO aid to Saudi Arabia, the only money the US gives Saudi is from buying oil. The US pays for bases also. The Saudi and US relationship is more like consumer buyer relationship. Israel and the US is more like a Aid and benefactor relationship.

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## RockSolid

*Israel seeks US aid package 
A third of the money is earmarked for the military 
Barbara Plett 
BBC Middle East correspondent* 



An Israeli delegation is due to arrive in Washington to try to secure an emergency aid package worth $12bn. 

Israel's economy is suffering from one of the worst crises in the country's history. 

The conflict with the Palestinians, together with the world economic downturn, has led to rising unemployment and falling investment. 

Israel submitted the request several months ago and is now sending a senior delegation to follow it up. 

It includes the head of the prime minister's office, Dov Weisglass, as well as the directors general of the finance and defence ministries. 

A third of the aid package would be for military and security spending, to help Israel fight the Palestinian uprising and boost its defence preparations for a possible US-led war against Iraq. 

The rest of the money would be in the form of loan guarantees. 

Obvious choice 

The United States is an obvious place to turn for help; it already gives its close ally $3.2bn in aid every year. 


Sharon's ratings have not been hit by Israel's economic woes 
Mr Weisglass called the request part of "very deep and involved strategic relations" and said Washington was regarding it favourably. 

Israeli commentators have said that even if Israel gets the money, it will not have an immediate impact on the economy. 

That suggests the authorities are looking more for improved confidence and boosted credit ratings than immediate rescue. 

The Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, does seem eager to get this vote of confidence, even though the dire economic situation has not had an impact on his poll standings ahead of general elections. 

Israelis are much more focused on security, although a vote-buying scandal in Mr Sharon's Likud Party has cut into its once commanding lead.
----------------------------------------------

Israeli delegates are about to arrrive in Washington to ask for more aid and loans, I though 6 billion in aid was good enough, but it seems they are asking for 12 billion now.

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## saboudian

> _Originally posted by Bouncer AKA bouncer_ 
> *saboudian I'm not entirely sure I understand your reply here. But it's a fact that the USA gives Egypt almost the same amount of money per head of population as it does Israel, and Saudi (one of the richest M.E. countries) even more. So if your argument is about the amount of money the US gives Israel it's a pointless argument. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bouncer*


I didn't say what i meant very well, i was trying to say that if we can't afford it why would we give even more $ then we are giving now.

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## retired

Rock Solid, the "my best friends are Jews" comment should alert everyone on this board to the very obvious fact that you are an antisemite jerk. 

Any jackass can find and post articles that are critical of Jews in general and Israel in particular. Antisemitism has been around for a long, long time. The fact that you have chosen to do so- that you have searched for them and posted them here without presenting any dissenting views- reveals you to be just that, a bigoted jackass.

The only people in the US who think that the US interests rest with the totalitarian Arab states are the BIG Oil companies (who would deal with the Devil if it meant making a profit) and right-wing nut cases like Pat Buchanan. Oh yeah, let's not forget the Arab Americans and their sympathizers who can't get over the fact that the Jews were able to build a democratic state under very difficult circumstances- with a free press, the right to vote for all of its citizens, and an independant judiciary- while the surrounding Arab states with their billions in oil wealth are still a bunch of backwards oppressive dictatorships. Of course it is easy to blame "the Jews," but it is also cowardly and dishonest.

Here are some basic facts to counter your "argument," such as it is:

1) Israel receives less money than the Arab world, even though it is the only democracy and RELIABLE ALLY that the US has in the Middle East. Egypt alone receives two billion a year, in spite of the fact that its official state propaganda is hostile to the US. Israel is a proven ally, and would put its armed forces on the line to help the Americans at the drop of a hat.

2) Israel has to re-invest 80% of that money in the US arms industry- to dumb that down for you, they have to spend most of the money on US weapons made by US companies, so the money given to Israel is actually given to the US high tech sector. It is an investment by US taxpayers in the US economy, that has the added benefit of protecting US interests overseas.

3) Israel has one of the most advanced high tech sectors in the entire world. The US does not transfer technology to Israel- the two countries develop it jointly. Israel could easily sell that know-how to other countries (Russia, China) for ENORMOUS profit, but they don't because of the value of the US-Israel alliance. Once again, to dumb things down: It is in the American interest to maintain their alliance with Israel.

I take great satisfaction in knowing that it will be thanks to the efforts of "Israeli-occupied America" that the Arab world will finally get a chance to develop responsible, democratic institutions. Because if it were up to hatemongering fools like you, Rock Solid, the Arabs would suffer under totalitarian oppression forever.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by gordero_ 
> *Rock Solid, the "my best friends are Jews" comment should alert everyone on this board to the very obvious fact that you are an antisemite jerk. 
> Here are some basic facts to counter your "argument," such as it is:
> 
> 1) Israel receives less money than the Arab world, even though it is the only democracy and RELIABLE ALLY that the US has in the Middle East. Egypt alone receives two billion a year, in spite of the fact that its official state propaganda is hostile to the US. Israel is a proven ally, and would put its armed forces on the line to help the Americans at the drop of a hat.
> 
> 2) Israel has to re-invest 80% of that money in the US arms industry- to dumb that down for you, they have to spend most of the money on US weapons made by US companies, so the money given to Israel is actually given to the US high tech sector. It is an investment by US taxpayers in the US economy, that has the added benefit of protecting US interests overseas.
> 
> 3) Israel has one of the most advanced high tech sectors in the entire world. The US does not transfer technology to Israel- the two countries develop it jointly. Israel could easily sell that know-how to other countries (Russia, China) for ENORMOUS profit, but they don't because of the value of the US-Israel alliance. Once again, to dumb things down: It is in the American interest to maintain their alliance with Israel.
> ...


Its funny if someone critizes Israel they are anti-semite, my friends are from moldovia, ukraine,and yugoslavia and are jews, how is that antisemite.

Israel has DONE NOTHING for America, NOTHING, all they spout is propongda of "we are the only democracy in the mid east" "we are americas strongest ally" really? WHAT HAS ISRAEL done for america? EVER? NOTHING......... Sharon doesnt listen to the US government 90% of the time.

1)ISRAEL RECIEVES THE MOST AID FROM THE US OUT OF ALL COUNTRIES, egypt gets money to, mainly to stay peaceful with ISrael, the rest of the arab states dont GET money, they get money for selling a product, they dont get it for FREE like Israel.

2) What US interests overseas does Israel protect? NOTHING once again. PS - its reinvesting the MONEY given to them FOR FREE by the US, dont be fooled most of the money is for Military aid purposes, so they can kill more innocnet kids.

3) Thanks for dumbing things down for me, I am understanding what ur saying now,  :Smilie:  , IF THE US WANTED, they could make Lebanon become 100 times more powerful than Israel, if they gave them the same aid and military packages. Israel Sells the US techonolgy to China in many instances, against US wishes, the US many times has urged Israel to stop selling AMerican Prodcuts to China. "They dont" is nothing less than wishful thinking.

PS - read about the USS LIBERTY

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## retired

I was wondering when you would crawl back into the light. 

As for you not being an antisemite, I took a couple of minutes to surf the web and read some of the bile that you've been spilling on other web-boards. I beg to differ- you are a bigot, and if you want to stop being a bigot, then you need to re-educate yourself about the difference between an INFORMED critique of Israeli policy and hate-filled propaganda that promotes intolerance.

The Arab world- including citizens in the West of Arab descent- are wrestling with some very difficult sentiments. Humiliation, fear, powerless anger- all of these stem from the sorry state of Arab society in the Middle East. How can a nation that controlled an empire that was larger than Rome at its peak- that was the cultural and intellectual hub of the world for centuries- now find itself lagging behind the rest of the world, squandering its tremendous natural and human resources, producing intolerant religious fanatics, and generally sentencing their younger generation to a hopeless existence?

One thing is for certain: It is NOT because of Isreal, a tiny state that occupies a piece of land that is roughly TEN MILES wide at its narrowest point. There was no "occupation" before 1967 (unless you want to consider the Egyptian and Jordanian presence an "occupation," but somehow that never gets mentioned today), and there were no "refugees" before 1947. On the other hand, there was a vibrant Jewish community in Palestine- some of which had ALWAYS been there, and they encountered a great deal of hostility from their Arab cousins. What was the "excuse" back then? It certainly was not "occupation" or alleged Israeli abuses. Rather, it was Arab-Islamic INTOLERANCE- the very idea of Jewish political sovereignty on "Islamic Land," no matter how enlightened and free (since many early Zionists promoted binationalism)- was enough to drive people to murder. THAT is the kind of intolerance- being closed to other cultures and their ideas, the subjugation of women- that continues to be a problem today.

Blaming Israel- or America, or anyone else- is an escapist, reflexive response to the situation that I have described above, and while it is easier to evade responsibility, it dooms the Arab world to more of the same.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by gordero_ 
> *The Arab world- including citizens in the West of Arab descent- are wrestling with some very difficult sentiments. Humiliation, fear, powerless anger- all of these stem from the sorry state of Arab society in the Middle East. How can a nation that controlled an empire that was larger than Rome at its peak- that was the cultural and intellectual hub of the world for centuries- now find itself lagging behind the rest of the world, squandering its tremendous natural and human resources, producing intolerant religious fanatics, and generally sentencing their younger generation to a hopeless existence?
> 
> One thing is for certain: It is NOT because of Isreal, a tiny state that occupies a piece of land that is roughly TEN MILES wide at its narrowest point. There was no "occupation" before 1967 (unless you want to consider the Egyptian and Jordanian presence an "occupation," but somehow that never gets mentioned today), and there were no "refugees" before 1947. On the other hand, there was a vibrant Jewish community in Palestine- some of which had ALWAYS been there, and they encountered a great deal of hostility from their Arab cousins. What was the "excuse" back then? It certainly was not "occupation" or alleged Israeli abuses. Rather, it was Arab-Islamic INTOLERANCE- the very idea of Jewish political sovereignty on "Islamic Land," no matter how enlightened and free (since many early Zionists promoted binationalism)- was enough to drive people to murder. THAT is the kind of intolerance- being closed to other cultures and their ideas, the subjugation of women- that continues to be a problem today.
> 
> Blaming Israel- or America, or anyone else- is an escapist, reflexive response to the situation that I have described above, and while it is easier to evade responsibility, it dooms the Arab world to more of the same.*


LOL, call me a biggot, I really dont care. I hate Israel and its policies if that makes me an anti-semite, a biggot, so be it. Ill accept it.

And trust me on this one, I blame Arabs more than anyone for the problems they face today. I never said the actions and crimes they are comminting are a good thing, infact its the opposite, its horrible. Why are they commiting these acts of terror, cause they used to be a superpower, but now most are nothing other than 3rd world countries. All arabs are TOO preoccupied with Israel to basically advance there prespective civilizations. Do I blame Israel for this? Nope I blame the Arabs. In the 40's Beirut, Tehran, Baghdad, were booming beautiful cities, now look at them. King Abudallah now has a startegy of "Jordan First" cause he feels Jordanians are too preoccupied with the Palestinian cause and that stalls them from progressing. Even though that might be unislamic it is a good start.

Arabs are farrrrrrrrrrrrrr from being tolerant. Look at how they are treating their fellow islamic kurds in Iraq and Turkey. The same Kurds who spawned King Saladin who won Jerusalem from the Crusaders. They arent letting the Muslim kurds get a state in Iraq and YOU THINK THEYLL HAPPLY GIVE Palestine to the Jewish People? Lets talk reality. I estimate they fight till the end of doom for the destruction of Israel.

And Im sure your smart enough to know that past civiliations of Arab-Islamic peoples have been wayyyy more respectful and tolerant of Jews than the Christians. Spain under muslim rule is a good example. And when Saladin ruled Jerusalmen. He let the jews stay and practice their religion how they pleased. The TRUE islamic way. Todays arabs arent acting Islamic.

A modern example Turkey, shipped tons of jews from Europe and Spain where they were being massacred, and gave them safe haven.

The Islamic world has gotten really angry especially with Israel. And something needs to be done to stop this. I suggest giving the land of west bank and gaza up to the palestinians. But I agree not under the threat of terrorism.

And Israel plays a huge huge part why "The Arab world- including citizens in the West of Arab descent- are wrestling with some very difficult sentiments. Humiliation, fear, powerless anger"

Huge but not all.

----------


## retired

Well, that's a more reasonable post on your part. 

Comparing Israelis to Nazis, advancing conspiracy theories that originated in the infamous "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," and citing renowned antisemites like Ford and Lindbergh as though they were authoritative certainly does not strengthen your position. Rather, it makes you vulnerable to charges of bigotry.

I also agree that the Palestinians should have a secure and viable state within internationally-recognized borders, and I have advocated on their behalf in the past. However, it will only be achieved through negotiation, and not through the terrorist acts that you rightly deplore. Two nations that have to live together cannot ultimately resolve their differences through violent means.

How should Israel or the US (or Russia) respond to terror attacks on its civilian population? The people who criticize Israel for the closures and the trageted killings- and also for the house-to-house battles that place their soldiers at risk in an effort to prevent innocent deaths- never seem to provide non-suicidal alternatives to these policies. That tells me that the critique does not originate from a consideration of the facts, but from something else altogether.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by gordero_ 
> *
> How should Israel or the US (or Russia) respond to terror attacks on its civilian population? The people who criticize Israel for the closures and the trageted killings- and also for the house-to-house battles that place their soldiers at risk in an effort to prevent innocent deaths- never seem to provide non-suicidal alternatives to these policies. That tells me that the critique does not originate from a consideration of the facts, but from something else altogether.*


I like Amram Mitzas plan even though he seems extermly generous, it seems like a good idea. Total withdrawal from WB and Gaza, and peace talks. For total peace with the Arab and Islamic World. But if after withdrawing from those areas, terror and military attacks continue, Israel should threaten takeover of land that will never be given back even for peace. That would set a right precedence. 

Israel will need peace to stay alive. Israel cant go on fighting forever. It isnt long before Iran gets nukes, or even countries like Egypt get nukes. And with nukes it doesnt matter how strong your tanks or military is. Israel is done. That is why peace is the only way for Israel and The Palestinians.

But it seems like Sharon seems to think that giving away WB and Gaza would be giving away a buffer zone. I dont understand that concept. I dont think peace is achievable with Sharon or Arafat.

btw - I didnt mean it to be anti-semetic, i meant those quotes to be anti-israeli, but know that I read the first 3 it seems anti-semetic.

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## retired

There is a reason why Mitzna's plan was overwhelmingly rejected by Israelis. Unilateral concessions while under fire are tantamount to suicide- they would only encourage those who would destroy Israel with or without a Palestinian state beside it.

That does not mean Israel cannot make concessions before a cease-fire that will give the Palestinians the diplomatic cover to crack down on their own terrorists, but it is far from a simple matter. I think that they should at least openly endorse the goal of a two-state solution.

It seems to me that Sharon and Arafat need each other in a strange way, but the US is correct- the Palestinians need to undergo significant reforms of their political and economic institutions before they will be able to say, with any credibility, that they are prepared to live in peace.

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## Zoolander

> _Originally posted by RockSolid_ 
> *
> 
> The Islamic World can learn a thing or two from the Jewish World, Islamic people with their religoius fevor turn to terrorism for a quick solution, they dont have world domination like they once did, and they no longer have a large powerful army, so terrorism is the only aspect that gives them a sense of FALSE pride. 
> 
> Instead what the Islamic World should do, (And I notice they have started already) is become like alot of Jewish people, go into politics, the media, make something of yourself, create a lobby, that is the only way people will respect a person Money and Power. The jewish people have a history of doing well in that aspect.*



True True True.

Great thread!

Really Sad to see that due to some religious Radicals who don't follow the true teaching of Islam, there is now the existance of the 'Islamic Threat' and ' Islam-phobia'.


What I can say is that people chose to see and believe what they WANT to believe. This is how the world works.

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## Venice

If you're going to use history as tool in this debate, you should at least make an effort to be balanced with the facts.

You make it sound as if Jews are a priviliged bunch who promenade around the world growing rich and powerful--and have done so for thousands of years.

There is no question that Jews have flourished in many parts of the world--including America--but this has happened despite generations of oppression against them. It is an unquestioned historical fact that Jews were subjected to generations of Pogroms throughout Europe in the years following being expelled by the Roman Empire from Israel/Palestine in about 80 AD. These include Spain's Inquisition (convert or be burned at the stake) and a history of segregation, beatings, and expulsions from countries including France and England in the 12th century.

Which leads me to the Nazis. We often hear the 6 million figure bandied about--and yes it's a significant number. However, let me ask you a trivia question--Any idea how many Jews there are in the whole world? 100 million? Not even close. 40 million? Nope. There are only 18 million Jews on earth (that's 0.02 of the world's population)--meaning the Nazis wiped out 1 out of every 3 Jewish people from the planet less than 60 years ago.

Let's put that in Christian terms. 1 billion Catholics in the world. It would be like murdering 333 million of them over the next 5 years. That's virtually the entire population of North America.

So fine, disagree with Israel's policies. I can't say I agree with a lot of them. However, frame your animosity with the understanding that Jews have a historical paranoia when it comes to being wiped from the earth. Had there been an Israel 60 years ago, millions of lives would have been saved. People turned away by every country in this world--including America--would have had someplace to go. Many of the more than 1 million children murdered in concentration camps might have had the chance to grow up and have a life like you do.

The situation between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples is not tolerable in its current state. However, true peace will require an understanding on both sides that the land must be shared---that both of these peoples (dwarfed in numbers by the rest of the world) have a right to safety and homelands of their own.

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## retired

those are good points Venice, although the actual figure is between 13 and 14 million Jews in the world today. 

Do Israelis suffer from "historical paranoia?" It seems to me that their fears are entirely rational, since their neighbours have been very explicit about seeking their destruction. No one would suggest that American paranoia is anything but rationally justified after 9/11.

The State of Israel does not base its legitimacy on the Holocaust, as you seem to imply. The state is as legitimate or illegitimate as any other state in the world, none of which have a "natural right" to exist. Critics of Israel's legitimacy must make a case for the the conditions that are necessary to guarantee the legitimacy of ANY state, and then determine how many other countries in the world meet those conditions.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Venice_ 
> *So fine, disagree with Israel's policies. I can't say I agree with a lot of them. However, frame your animosity with the understanding that Jews have a historical paranoia when it comes to being wiped from the earth. Had there been an Israel 60 years ago, millions of lives would have been saved. People turned away by every country in this world--including America--would have had someplace to go. Many of the more than 1 million children murdered in concentration camps might have had the chance to grow up and have a life like you do.
> *


I agree, but some things that happen in Israel it totally wrong -

Palestinians must carry color-coded ID cards and drive cars with color-coded plates.

Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis can not buy or lease land in Israel

The Israeli government has expropriated Palestinians from their land and homes without compensation to build settlements for Israelis.

The homes of people resisting the occupation, even by peaceful means, have been demolished sometimes with only a few hours notice for the occupants to get out. In May 2002, an estimated 10,000 Palestinians were left homeless when their homes in Jenin were damaged or totally destroyed in the IDFs search for "terrorists. Over 60 people were killed in the operation of which only 30 were "terrorists. Israel refused to allow international observers to investigate the scene

The Israeli government has diverted water away from Palestinian farmland to serve the Jewish settlements that they have established within Palestine. In many areas, water is rationed for Palestinians but Israeli settlers have swimming pools. Averages: Palestinians use 37.5 cubic metres of water per person per year. Israelis use 235 cubic meters and Israeli settlers in the occupied territories use 600.

Given the history of the Jewish people, they should know better than to impose these type of restrictions to other people. Throughout history the opressed become opressors.

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## Venice

There is no argument (at least from me) that many of the policies...particularly the policies of the Sharon government are dubious at best.

However, again let's look at history.

In 1947, the United Nations unveiled a partition plan that would have evenly divided the land and left Jerusalem as an international city. The Israelis (or what would become Israel) agreed to the partition plan--the Palestinians did not.

On numerous occassions over the next 20 years, the Arab world invaded Israel with the hope of taking over the land completely and driving the Israelis "into the sea."

Each time, they lost.

In recent years, countries like Egypt and Jordan have secured peace with Israel because they have shown a proactive willingness to negotiate and reach a brokered solution. In Egypt's case, peace came with the return of the Sinai desert--land they lost in a war with Israel.

The Palestinians have the right to a homeland. But with rights come responsiblities--and their first priority should be coming up with their own formalized peace plan. This plan should include the proposed borders of their new state, the future of Jersusalem, and what they are going to provide in terms of international relations with Israel when a Palestinian state becomes reality. Once they put it in writing, they should accept (just as Israel must accept) that they're not going to get everything they want in a negotiated settlement.

What has happened to the Palestinian people is tragic. And yes, Israel shoulders its share of blame. However, the Arab world also bears responsibility. In countries where the line between rich and poor is more dramatic than anyplace in the world, those in power in places like Saudi Arabia for decades have fueled hatred against Israel to ensure their peoples don't turn against their own repressive regimes. 

Should there ever be peace between Israel and the Arab world, it will be interesting to see what these leaders do when their people are unhappy with conditions in their own countries, but these despots no longer have Israel to use as a diversionary propaganda tool.

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## retired

> _Originally posted by RockSolid_ 
> *
> 
> I agree, but some things that happen in Israel it totally wrong -
> 
> Palestinians must carry color-coded ID cards and drive cars with color-coded plates.
> 
> Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis can not buy or lease land in Israel
> 
> ...


Let's address those statements one by one:

1) Israeli Arabs do not have to carry special identification or otherwise identify themselves as Arabs. All FOREIGN workers- Arab or otherwise- do. That is perfectly reasonable, because the goverment needs to keep track of who is in their country, especially given the fact that Israel has been at war with all or some of its neighbours throughout its entire existence.

How many Palestinians work in the gulf states? NONE- they were all kicked out, even though many were born there (and denied citizenship), all because Arafat sided with Sadam Hussein in gulf war I. If Israel is such an evil place, why are so many Arabs so eager to work there?

2) NOBODY can buy land in Israel- it is all owned by the state. In most of the country, Jews and Arabs live together peacefully. The Israeli goverment has been very particular in ensuring that Arab-Israeli communities are not set up along the old border with Jordan, for obvious reasons. So in those areas, Israeli Arabs cannot lease land. 

On the other hand, the State of Israel has an independent Judiciary that handles any and all disputes- including those that involve the right of Arabs to reside where they please. No other country in the middle east comes close in this respect, and the court has ruled on behalf of Arab claimants on many occasions.

3) The Israeli government does not engage in the wholesale destruction of Palestinian homes and property for the purpose of building settlements. All but a tiny number of settlements are built outside of the Arab towns in the West Bank and Gaza- on unpopulated land- and the VAST MAJORITY of "settlements" are in fact extensions to Jewish neighbourhoods in Jerusalem.

When Arab homes are destroyed by the IDF, it is because they have been built illegally. Try building a house in an American city without a permit and watch what happens.

4) This is complete and utter nonsense. The IDF entered Jenin and fought street-to-street and house-to-house battles against armed terrorists (those same terrorists who have been blowing themselves up in Israeli cities) in an effort to minimize civilian deaths and damage to property. Your figure of "10 000 homeless" is a fabrication- along with the figure of "500 dead" that came out immediately after the operation. The Israelis should be commended for the risks that they took to take out TERRORISTS (not peaceful resisters of the "occupation"), especially when they could have bombed them out of existence from the skies and thereby saved the lives of their officers (many of whom died during the operation).

5) You are also mistaken about the water situation. In fact, the PA refused to allow the Israeli goverment to connect various Arab villages to the Israeli water system, because they felt that this would represent a violation of "Palestinian sovereignty." Once again, it is a case of Arafat and his cronies screwing their own people for nothing.

You are truly misinformed about what is going on in the Middle East, which is hardly surprising given the amount of anti-Israel propaganda that has been flying around for the last two years. At the very least, you should make a point of learning about the historical context of the Arab-Israeli conflict- it will provide you with some much-needed perspective.

As for the "oppressed becoming the oppressors," it is only because Jews and Israelis in particular are so sensitive to the plight of the oppressed that the Palestinians have not been driven en masse into Jordan and Lebanon. That is how every other country in the region would have responded by now (in fact, many of those countries HAVE engaged in outright genocide), but you seem to miss this point.

If you actually cared at all about human rights, then you would find that there are countries and goverments in the region that are far more deserving of your hatred. How do you justify your singling out of Israel?

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## Venice

While its true that no country has a "God-given" right to exist (and civilizations rise and fall) it's intellectually dishonest to say that Israel came into being in the same manner as every other country.

What is fair to say is that Israel came into existance in a similar fashion to many countries thoughout Asia and Africa--former European colonies that were hacked onto maps with little regard for ethnic and geographic borders.

When we look at the problems in Africa and between India and Pakistan, these realities are demonstrated over and over. This is hardly unique to Israel and the Palestinians--and anyone who says the Israeli situation is unique is ignoring a great deal of international conflict in the world today.

The true "culprit" here...quite honestly...is Europe. If not for their behavior over the past many centuries, neither Israelis nor Palestinians (or many other countries) would be in this mess.

When the Balfour Plan divided the region into Palestine, Jordan, and Syria, it was an entirely European solution--with little forethought put in to exactly who would live in which areas. Even the UN plan of 1947 divided Israel/Palestine into two geographically "pock-marked" countries. It's as ridiculous as Illinois, Louisianna, and Maryland all deciding they were going to form their own nation.

The reality of it is that while Jews have strived for a homeland since the 19th century, it wasn't until the Holocaust that a guilt-ravaged Europe (and US) decided the time was right to push a Jewish homeland through the UN. Had there been no Holocaust, almost certainly Israel would never have been founded less than three years after the war ended.

I could go on much longer, but here's an endpoint. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians can claim complete innocence in the current conflict. Both sides make some legitimate arguments--and both are historically ignorant (to the point of blindness) when it comes to looking at the legitimate points raised by the other.

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## Venice

...And I'd like to say one more thing regarding Pat Buchanan's article.

Yes, the United States gives a great deal of money to Israel. No argument. However, the United States government also gives huge amounts of money to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, France, and many other countries throughout the developed and developing world.

Hey, we were about to give $30 billion to Turkey--to use their bases to launch an offensive on Iraq. This is obviously many times more money than what Buchanan is complaining about in his article.

However, I'll give this to Pat. He's an isolationist, but he's consistent about it. Whether he's consistently sage or short-sighted is a matter of political opinion. 

Where I disagree with him is in what America gets for it. Saying it's the "Jewish lobby" is a crass analysis. Fact is, the US has benefited from having Israel in the Middle East. It has helped the west develop a foothold in the region. Also, Israel's army and intelligence has been a valuable asset, especially in the past two years.

Remember, Saddam Hussein was well on his way to having a nuclear bomb, until Israeli intelligence and tactical maneuvers destroyed his program in the 1980's. If not for that, we might have a vastly different (and considerably more dangerous) situation in the Middle East right now.

That, by itself, is money well spent.

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## retired

Yes, Buchanan is consistent- consistently wrong. Anybody who thinks that they can be an isolationist in a globalized world, where weapons of mass destruction can be detonated by suicide crazies in your cities- is a fool. He also plays on the bigotry and fear of his extreme right-wing sympathizers.

Venice, Israel is different from other nation-states that emerged in the 19th and 20th centuries. The Jews actually reconstituted themselves with an entirely new culture; they revived their ancient language; and they achieved political sovereignty in their ancient homeland. 

Israel did not require the Holocaust to gain legitimacy, and it did not "come into being" with a vote by the UN. It's true that it would have been more difficult to gain recognition with a negative UN vote, but the Jews built their own institutions from the ground up and gained their independence through victory in war. It's not as if the Arabs respected the UN vote- they did their best to drive all of the Jews in the region (including those who has just been released from the camps) "into the sea," and had they succeeded there would be no Israel.

I think it is an oversimplification to say that it is all the fault of the Europeans that the region is such a mess, although they obviously bear a share of the blame. India is far poorer and has hundreds of different ethnic groups within its borders, and yet they have replaced colonial rule with a functioning democracy. Other countries have done the same, so we need to look deeper to understand the failings of the Arab world.

On the other hand, the behavior of the Europeans today- especially France- is reprehensible. They would rather appease people like Sadam Hussein without any regard for what he does to his own people or the surrounding countries. They also sold him the nuclear power plant (why does a nation with huge natural oil reserves need nuclear power?) that the Israelis destroyed.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Venice_ 
> *Yes, the United States gives a great deal of money to Israel. No argument. However, the United States government also gives huge amounts of money to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, France, and many other countries throughout the developed and developing world.
> 
> Where I disagree with him is in what America gets for it. Saying it's the "Jewish lobby" is a crass analysis. Fact is, the US has benefited from having Israel in the Middle East. It has helped the west develop a foothold in the region. Also, Israel's army and intelligence has been a valuable asset, especially in the past two years.
> *


Ok I told this to Bouncer AKA Bouncer before, the US doesnt "give" money to Saudi Arabia, it pays Saudi Arabia for oil. The US gives Egpyt aid cause of their peaceful realtions to Israel, if they werent peaceful with Israel they wouldnt get it.

Go to the second strongest lobby in washington the AIPAC, go to www.aipac.com and you tell me that the "lobby" thing is a farce, its not, this is the same lobby that pushes super pro Israeli policies, and totally anti-arab/islamic policies. They are trying to put sanctions on Syria that have failed in the US congress constintely.

Countries like Kuwait and Qatar have done alot more for the US according to me, yes Israel helps a little, but honestly even if it wanted to help it coudnt cause of the pressure by arabs. So basically Israel is there doing nothing for the US, in some instances it makes matters worse. I dont want to cut of aid to Israel, but I want to see an even handed approach to both parties, cause honestly both parties are acting like a bunch of whiny war mongers.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by Venice_ 
> *While its true that no country has a "God-given" right to exist (and civilizations rise and fall) it's intellectually dishonest to say that Israel came into being in the same manner as every other country.
> 
> What is fair to say is that Israel came into existance in a similar fashion to many countries thoughout Asia and Africa--former European colonies that were hacked onto maps with little regard for ethnic and geographic borders.
> 
> When we look at the problems in Africa and between India and Pakistan, these realities are demonstrated over and over. This is hardly unique to Israel and the Palestinians--and anyone who says the Israeli situation is unique is ignoring a great deal of international conflict in the world today.
> 
> The true "culprit" here...quite honestly...is Europe. If not for their behavior over the past many centuries, neither Israelis nor Palestinians (or many other countries) would be in this mess.
> 
> ...


All points are very true and a excellent post, its not Europe fully, its more specifically Britain.

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## retired

Rock Rock Rock...

There are many many many many influencial lobbies and special-interest groups in the US. AIPAC is ONE of them- there is also an Arab-American lobby group, an African-American lobby group, an Asian-American lobby group, a Big Oil lobby group- the list goes on and on.

AIPAC only became influential at all after the Six Day War, when it became apparent that Israel represented a crucial ally in the Middle East. 

For an "all-powerful" lobby group, they were remarkably ineffective at preventing George Bush sr. from cutting off loan guarantees to force the Israelis to curtail settlement activity. That does not mesh well with your "the Jews control America" storyline, does it?

The pro-Israel lobby (which includes a great many Christians as well) is only influencial because the US goverment has ALREADY decided- justifiably- on the strategic importance of the US-Israeli alliance. In other words, the tail is not wagging the dog, in spite of what rabid Israel haters would have everyone believe.

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## RockSolid

> _Originally posted by gordero_ 
> *
> 
> Let's address those statements one by one:
> 
> 1) Israeli Arabs do not have to carry special identification or otherwise identify themselves as Arabs. All FOREIGN workers- Arab or otherwise- do. That is perfectly reasonable, because the goverment needs to keep track of who is in their country, especially given the fact that Israel has been at war with all or some of its neighbours throughout its entire existence.
> 
> How many Palestinians work in the gulf states? NONE- they were all kicked out, even though many were born there (and denied citizenship), all because Arafat sided with Sadam Hussein in gulf war I. If Israel is such an evil place, why are so many Arabs so eager to work there?
> 
> ...


Thanks for answering this, instead of getting mad. I just wanted to know if it was false or true the statments sites made, and you corrected it.

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## retired

Rock, sometimes I do get angry, which is not especially helpful. There is a great deal of misinformation floating around- especially on the internet- that can be used to misinform people on both sides of the debate.

The most disturbing aspect of this disinformation is that it leads to hatred and a demonization of the other side. Once someone has been demonized, then dialogue and compromise become impossible- after all, who wants to deal with the Devil (except for satanists)?

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## paperboy

One thing people often overlook when they talk about the 1947 partition plan is that in 1947 more than 90% of the British mandate Palestine was owned by Palestinians, and in the 'Jewish' partition 40% of people in were palestinians who own most of the land, the Palestinians being mostlt rural people and the Zionists being urban immigrants, so the plan itself was never realistic and the Arabs should not really be faulted for rejecting something that was basically just a prelude to war

I think there is a site called palestineremembered that has the stats on this from the British registries

Also I don't think it's accurate to say the 1967 war or the 58(was it 58?) suez crises were "Arab invasions" as Israeli territory was never breached and both involved surprise attacks, the 73 yom kupper war was an invasion but only of territory seized by Israel in the 67 conflict

as far as the arguments about aid, my opinion is ALL aid to Arab/Israel should be dropped with the exception of vital humanitarian assistence, the rest of the money corrupts both societies as it gives them an enabler to continue with vicious cycles of violence instead of negotiating a settement based on the 67 borders (IE completing the roadmap)

peace 

the next 20 years




> There is no argument (at least from me) that many of the policies...particularly the policies of the Sharon government are dubious at best.
> 
> However, again let's look at history.
> 
> In 1947, the United Nations unveiled a partition plan that would have evenly divided the land and left Jerusalem as an international city. The Israelis (or what would become Israel) agreed to the partition plan--the Palestinians did not.
> 
> On numerous occassions over the next 20 years, the Arab world invaded Israel with the hope of taking over the land completely and driving the Israelis "into the sea."
> 
> Each time, they lost.
> ...

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## Cycleon

Let one who is close enough to washington to put in a bit of perspective.

First - If you dont think that a pro-Jewish lobby exists and that it is the single most powerfull lobby in DC, you are sorely mistaken - tho there are some that pay more (like the saudis) but none who excersise more power and influence (especially on foriegn affairs). As is well stated - you cant question support for Israel's policies without being considered "anti-semetic" - screw that I am PRO AMERICAN. And if you dont think that US media is primarily owned and staffed by a VERY disproportionate number of jewish people, then I suggest you start learning the ethnicity of "shultzburgher". Does that mean they are this single minded cabal running the US from smoke filled rooms? no, just that they use a lot of influence to push for policies that IMO are NOT in true US interest and for the good of AMERICANS.

Secondly, what we mostly get from Israel is intelligence and some of it is quite good - problem is, unlike the Brits, who also share intel - we are always trying to decipher if the mossad is trying to get us to do its dirty work.

Third, Israel continues to exist today because the US says so - sure they could defend themselves against a few arabs but if enough got together they could come rolling over the golan heights - which of course would trigger the Samson option of Israel lobbing a nuke or two. But the flip side is the Palestinians continue to exist today because the US says so - because if the US said ok, Sharon would kill or push every single one of them out - probably then causing the fracas mentioned above - main point is, they both continue due to US say so, and I expect a [email protected]@king lot more gratitude for it from both sides

The israelis really do treat palestinians like slaves (much like the Saudis do) - they continue to ensure that the pal economy does not grow on its own, silently boycott any pal products that are not run or owned by israelis - who see pals as cheap labor - pals are grateful for the jobs since arabs dont seem to be to keen on getting an economy going - but after awhile start resenting the fact that they can never move past the lowest rungs

Finally, I dont give a damn about jews and I give even less of one about Arabs - what I care about is AMERICANS. And what I want to see is our gov move for AMERICAN interests - if jewish or arabs interests just happen to match those, then fine - otherwise too bad

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## skinjob

nicely put Cycleon.

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## KAEW44

When i read the title of the thread i thought this would be a simple argument of pro/anti israel using minimal and very crappy reasoning, but after reading through it seems people here know what they are talking about exacly!
Taking a side all depends on who you talk to, you could either look at it as the palestinian terorists are killing israelis, or you can look at it as the israeli's are killing the palestinians ruthlessly.....its all about wich media you choose to follow.
Every terrorist attack on israel and Israeli attack on palestinians is considered a 'retaliation' to teh other side that supposedly 'started it' so we have to look way way back to see who really started it!! 

Jewish people were always allowed to live in Israel, but when more european Jews started coming in...it was the palestinians that started a wave of hostility towards them...there was enough space for everyone to get along there...but pure racism and intolerance is what caused the hostility in the first place.

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## singern

> Let one who is close enough to washington to put in a bit of perspective.
> 
> First - If you dont think that a pro-Jewish lobby exists and that it is the single most powerfull lobby in DC, you are sorely mistaken - tho there are some that pay more (like the saudis) but none who excersise more power and influence (especially on foriegn affairs). As is well stated - you cant question support for Israel's policies without being considered "anti-semetic" - screw that I am PRO AMERICAN. And if you dont think that US media is primarily owned and staffed by a VERY disproportionate number of jewish people, then I suggest you start learning the ethnicity of "shultzburgher". Does that mean they are this single minded cabal running the US from smoke filled rooms? no, just that they use a lot of influence to push for policies that IMO are NOT in true US interest and for the good of AMERICANS.
> 
> Secondly, what we mostly get from Israel is intelligence and some of it is quite good - problem is, unlike the Brits, who also share intel - we are always trying to decipher if the mossad is trying to get us to do its dirty work.
> 
> Third, Israel continues to exist today because the US says so - sure they could defend themselves against a few arabs but if enough got together they could come rolling over the golan heights - which of course would trigger the Samson option of Israel lobbing a nuke or two. But the flip side is the Palestinians continue to exist today because the US says so - because if the US said ok, Sharon would kill or push every single one of them out - probably then causing the fracas mentioned above - main point is, they both continue due to US say so, and I expect a [email protected]@king lot more gratitude for it from both sides
> 
> The israelis really do treat palestinians like slaves (much like the Saudis do) - they continue to ensure that the pal economy does not grow on its own, silently boycott any pal products that are not run or owned by israelis - who see pals as cheap labor - pals are grateful for the jobs since arabs dont seem to be to keen on getting an economy going - but after awhile start resenting the fact that they can never move past the lowest rungs
> ...


What a load of BULL , Get me a shovel.
So you are some high level Gov agent are you, cause you have all this top secret info on CIA, Mosad, NSA, and national security dealings and policies. Palastinian slavery, give me a break, where did you get this the HAMAS website??? 
Please, you know as much about this stuff as my goldfish.

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## KAEW44

Although we all have freedom of opinion and speech, singern i still think it was unwise to discredit the mighty servant of the sacred fire, AKA the wielder of the flame!
Look more deeply into his arguments before saying he know nothing.

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## singern

> Although we all have freedom of opinion and speech, singern i still think it was unwise to discredit the mighty servant of the sacred fire, AKA the wielder of the flame!
> Look more deeply into his arguments before saying he know nothing.


You are correct regarding freedom of expression, and as a proud American this is fundamental, However posting fictional conspiracy theories created to distort, mislead, and falsely accuse, then say it is all fact and that you are some kind of insider in the intelligence world who knows all. I am very sorry but this is not acceptable and should be frowned upon by the mods, and all members. 
Shame on you Cycleon, we expect better from a role model.

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## Cycleon

there is no shame to me whatsoever - and if you will look closely, I have clearly stated that there is no conspiracy, just many people doing what they believe is in their own and those they support best interests' - but it would be shear blindness or willfull folly not to acknowlege that there are industries where those of jewish heritage tend to be disproportionately large - the diamond business is one of them - the TV, movie and print media is another one - because of this particular industry, their individual interests are broadcast more forcefully than many other groups who might be concentrated in the tomato growing industry.

again, Israel is clear about seeking its own interests and that is what the Israeli people have tasked Sharon to do - I suggest that the American people have hired our lawmakeers to do the same - much of the time our interests are aligned but not always - and it is a fact that the US has put up with a LOT of gaff on israel's account

as to the way israelis treat palestinians (if there is such a thing) - that is also factual - they are a source of cheap labor and even arab israeli citizens (a number of whom are Christian) are 2nd class citizens - it is perhaps understandable considering that israelis always have to be on the lookout for a pal with an explosive personality but it is what it is

now, my knowlege is not just from books or a paper or two I read here and there but beacuse I do speak or have spoken to people who make some decisions in the matters at hand - but those are thoughts for another day

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## tryingtogetbig

> You are correct regarding freedom of expression, and as a proud American this is fundamental, However posting fictional conspiracy theories created to distort, mislead, and falsely accuse, then say it is all fact and that you are some kind of insider in the intelligence world who knows all. I am very sorry but this is not acceptable and should be frowned upon by the mods, and all members. 
> Shame on you Cycleon, we expect better from a role model.



Singern....prove him wrong. All you are saying is that cycleon doesn't know what he's talking about....so....prove him wrong. Can you?

Personally, I tend to lean towards cycleon's point of view....which I understood to be his point of view...Nowhere did he say this is the only fact and you can't try and dispute his facts....and he didn't say that all who patron AR have to believe his words. So, why would AR have any problem with him expressing his point of views....just becasuse you don't agree with them?

I am open to hearing some factual statements and opinions debating his point of view...preferrably with references as well.

peace,

ttgb

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## singern

> Singern....prove him wrong. All you are saying is that cycleon doesn't know what he's talking about....so....prove him wrong. Can you?
> ttgb


OK the first line of his post "Let one who is close enough to washington to put in a bit of perspective" this tells us that he is privi to intel that we would not have, Not opinion but inside facts. Which I highly doubt is credible. 

"tho there are some that pay more (like the saudis) but none who excersise more power and influence (especially on foriegn affairs). "
So he is also involved in foreign affairs and dispomatic issues, and implies that us political divisions secretly work to the advantage of Israel and not the usa

"what we mostly get from Israel is intelligence and some of it is quite good - problem is, unlike the Brits, who also share intel - we are always trying to decipher if the mossad is trying to get us to do its dirty work."
Here we are to beleave that he has inside information of the most secret national agencys, both Israeli and american. He knows what where and how these agencys work, and operate...


"Israel continues to exist today because the US says so - sure they could defend themselves against a few arabs but if enough got together they could come rolling over the golan heights :
Im very currious where this bull came from, yes Israel gets financial support from USA but never a single US solder or military presance in any conflict in the history of Irael. And yes Israel has in the past deffended and defeted multiple agressive military conflicts from sorrounding arab states.


"The israelis really do treat palestinians like slaves (much like the Saudis do) - they continue to ensure that the pal economy does not grow on its own, "
Now this one is word for word right out of the PLO handbook, Before the Palestinians started using Terror as a diplomatic tool, there economy was booming, buisness, hospotals, education, water, electric infrastructure, economy was at an all time high in the history of the Middle east. I would like to see what would happen to the Canadian economy if hords of terrorists every day tried to come across the border into the USA, We would close the border so tight a moose wouldnt cross without getting shot in the ass.
Well there you go. 
Peace back at you...

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