# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Gay marriage may be a gift to California's economy

## Carlos_E

Business is up for hotels, bakers and photographers as same-sex couples prepare to wed.

By Alana Semuels, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer 
June 2, 2008

Forget economic stimulus checks. Same-sex marriages may give California just the financial boost it needs.

Wedding planners, bakers and hotels began booking more business almost immediately after the state Supreme Court's May 15 decision overturning a ban on gay marriage. Citing pent-up demand, one *UCLA study projects that same-sex unions could provide a $370-million shot in the arm to the state economy over the next three years.*

"Being in West Hollywood, we've been inundated," said Tom Rosa, owner of the Cake and Art bakery on Santa Monica Boulevard. "After the ruling, the phone really picked up."

Rosa said couples who had waited for decades to legally marry were splurging on 5-foot-tall confections shaped like carousels and cakes featuring handcrafted birds of paradise.

Mike Standifer and Marc Hammer were already planning a commitment ceremony for October, but when the court ruling came out, they decided to throw an even bigger bash and get married.

They plan on spending about $25,000, which includes renovations on their Hollywood home so they can have the party in their backyard. The new price tag includes rings, their suits and those of their wedding party, and the cost of flying in Standifer's priest from Tennessee -- all costs they wouldn't have incurred if they were just having a party.

"The wedding dynamic in the last two weeks changed everything," Standifer said. The wedding businesses he's worked with so far seem thrilled. "I think it's because the economy's not so great, but the vendors have been treating us like royalty," he said.

By some estimates, weddings and commitment ceremonies for same-sex couples generate $1 billion a year in revenue.

PlanetOut, a media and entertainment company that conducts surveys about gay and lesbian consumers, says gay consumers earn 20% more than their straight counterparts, on average, and spend about 10% more on nuptials.

The court ruling comes at a good time for many small wedding-related businesses, which are finding that their traditional customers are spending less on weddings because of the economy.

"Brides are being more frugal with things they don't see as a priority," said Richard Markel, president and director of the Assn. for Wedding Professionals International.

Things really slowed down in February, said Michael Willms, owner of Entertainment Design Events, an event planning company that's done big bashes such as a wedding for actress Lindsay Price, who stars in the NBC show "Lipstick Jungle."

But they've picked up now. The day after the ruling, Willms booked a $55,000 same-sex wedding.

"These weddings will be much more lavish," he said. "Everybody's been waiting for it to be legal to throw the big party."

California counties can begin issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples beginning June 17.

M.V. Lee Badgett, research director at the Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation Law and Public Policy at the UCLA School of Law, estimates that gay weddings could provide a $370-million boost to the state economy.

That estimate presumes that about half of California's 92,000 same-sex couples will tie the knot, multiplied by $8,040, the amount of money from savings accounts that Badgett figures same-sex couples will use on their weddings.

Event planners, restaurants, tent and chair rental companies, florists, caterers and hotels should all get a piece of that pie, she said.

"There's an opportunity to get a big wedding windfall," she said.

There are, of course, some caveats. No one can accurately project how many gay couples will spend thousands on weddings. And the legality of gay weddings is potentially short-lived, as officials verify petition signatures for a proposed Nov. 4 ballot initiative that would prohibit same-sex marriage.

Still, wedding-related companies that traditionally market to the gay and lesbian community are finding business is picking up.

Mitch Goldstone, president of Irvine-based photo service ScanMyPhotos.com, said he had gotten more than 300 requests for wedding invitations with photos on them since the court ruling.

"I guess people are still concerned about dealing with unsympathetic local photo labs," he said.

Rosa, the baker, said a lesbian couple came to him for their cake after a bakery in San Bernardino said it was booked for the summer and couldn't make their wedding cake when a clerk saw the two women together.

Other businesses are trying to capture the attention of gay and lesbian couples.

Susan Goldman, a wedding photographer, registered the domain name biggayweddings.com a month ago so she could market her services to same-sex couples. The Ramada hotel in West Hollywood is promoting a honeymoon special, and the West Hollywood Marketing & Visitors Bureau is launching an ad in a magazine for the gay community, selling West Hollywood as a good place for weddings and honeymoons.

The bump in advertising targeted at same-sex couples is good for publications. Bill LaPointe, publisher of the Orange County and Long Beach Blade, anticipates a 10% to 15% increase in advertising from wedding vendors. The Blade caters to gay, lesbian and transgender readers.

Macy's published a full-page ad for its wedding and gift registry in the Los Angeles Times and San Francisco Chronicle on Wednesday, captioned "First comes love. Then comes marriage. And now it's a milestone every couple in California can celebrate."

Same-sex couples can obtain a marriage license in California whether or not they live in the state. That means hotels and airlines might see business from same-sex couples and their guests flying to California to marry.

"It will be the only place where couples from any state can be married legally," said Michael C. Green, president of the Palm Springs Hospitality Assn. and owner of the Triangle Inn, a Palm Springs hotel catering to gay men. That's a boon to places like Palm Springs, which is a popular gay resort destination.

"Our city has been barraged with phone calls from folks who want to come visit and find out how quickly we'll be able to issue licenses," he said.

Sue Jennings and the Rev. Cindi Love, executive director of the gay-oriented Metropolitan Community Churches, live in Texas but will fly to Los Angeles to get married this month. They're planning on spending about $5,000 on a dinner for their guests, flowers, a photographer and clothes for the wedding, even if it means a big credit card bill.

"We've been together 28 years," Love said. "We want to have a ceremony and that acknowledgment of one another."

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## Carlos_E

I bet other states will follow just for the economic benefit. I guess the saying is true. You want something changed, hit them in the wallet!

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## Carlos_E

Not quite Adam and Steve but appropriate. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU30H0rkymY

 :LOL:

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## BgMc31

> I bet other states will follow just for the economic benefit. I guess the saying is true. You want something changed, hit them in the wallet!


It worked in ending segregation. Thanks to the Montgomery bus boycott.

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## Coop77

It makes total sense. Gay couples have a lot of expendable income. Hopefully the people of CA will understand this by Nov.

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## Carlos_E

> It makes total sense. Gay couples have a lot of expendable income. Hopefully the people of CA will understand this by Nov.


Here we go:



> PlanetOut, a media and entertainment company that conducts surveys about gay and lesbian consumers, says *gay consumers earn 20% more than their straight counterparts*, on average, and spend about 10% more on nuptials.

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## BigLittleTim

> Not quite Adam and Steve but appropriate.


God did not create Adam and STEVE.

He created Adam and _STEPHEN._

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## ottomaddox

For all you Star Trek Fans:
'Star Trek' actor George Takei plans gay marriage
http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?ne...1&affid=100055

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## CeeLo

I do not know what to say about this w/o offending someone. I would not have been pro gay marriages. 

I don't know about Adam and Stephen either. *God created Adam and Eve!*  How does a member and worst a pastor of a church preach Gayness or Lesbian?

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## Carlos_E

> How does a member and worst a pastor of a church preach Gayness or Lesbian?


It's pretty easy. God created and loves all people except you because you have a tattoo around your naval. 

Sounds pretty silly right? It's just as silly to say god hates gays because of something that makes them different.

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## Coop77

> I do not know what to say about this w/o offending someone. I would not have been pro gay marriages. 
> 
> I don't know about Adam and Stephen either. *God created Adam and Eve!*  How does a member and worst a pastor of a church preach Gayness or Lesbian?


I won't attempt to argue what "God created" or what anybody's religion says about gays, because it doesn't matter. This isn't Iran. We don't have a national religion and religious law. 

When you say "I'm against gay marriage because I'm Christian and God created.. blah blah", you're showing that you don't understand a basic tenet of the US constitution.

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## FallenWyvern

I always thought of marriage as right given to *all of us* by god. 

If *your* religion allows gay marriage then how could the state of California(or whatever) overrule god.

Personally, I don't think government has a right to issue a marriage license, churches do.

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## Tock

> I always thought of marriage as right given to *all of us* by god.


I always thought that the USA was a nation of laws based on a secular constitution, 
not a nation obliged to abide by the teachings of Rev. Jimmy Swaggart (FYI, he's the TV preacher who preached many a spirited sermon against sexual immorality, all the while he was patronizing cheap prostitutes in a Louisiana motel).

Many people tout the spendors of the Ten Commandments, but few can name more than 4 of them, and nobody really intends to live by them, and several of them conflict with the US Constitution. 
So, screw the 10 Commandments, and screw anyone who tries to make anyone live by the Bible's rules.

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## Tock

> I do not know what to say about this w/o offending someone. I would not have been pro gay marriages. 
> 
> I don't know about Adam and Stephen either. *God created Adam and Eve!* How does a member and worst a pastor of a church preach Gayness or Lesbian?


You're referring, of course, to fictions from the Christian Bible. Perhaps you would like to know that the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers) are 100% anonymous. No one knows who wrote them. Some folks say Moses did, but that's quite impossible, since, if you look at the final few verses of the book of Numbers, it mentions how Moses walked away from the people of Israel and was never heard from again -- not the sort of thing you'd read in a biography. And in Genesis, which is set centuries before Moses, it speaks about kings in Israel, which did not exist until centuries after Moses. 

Lots of other problems exist with that book, mon ami. Your preachers won't tell you about them because their income depends on you beleiving that the Bible is true. 

Nevertheless, if you insist on embracing the Bible (or any religious text) and its fictions, by all means, feel free to do so. Just don't cram it's nonsense down other people's throat.

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## CeeLo

Ok, I give. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinons. This is a subject that is way to HOT for me to handle. I seem to be out number and I'm jumping ship.

I don't have a problem with people who choose to live that life style, but it just aint for me.

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## Carlos_E

> Ok, I give. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinons. This is a subject that is way to HOT for me to handle. I seem to be out number and I'm jumping ship.
> 
> *I don't have a problem with people who choose to live that life style*, but it just aint for me.


Your first mistake is calling being gay a choice. Can you tell me the day you chose to be straight? Or have you always had an attraction to women. If you can't answer that, why do you assume people choose to be gay? 

The only choice involved is whether or not you choose to tell other people.

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## Peducho0113

> Not quite Adam and Steve but appropriate. 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU30H0rkymY


Carlos this video is funny I was not expecting that ending LOL

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## Peducho0113

> Your first mistake is calling being gay a choice. Can you tell me the day you chose to be straight? Or have you always had an attraction to women. If you can't answer that, why do you assume people choose to be gay? 
> 
> The only choice involved is whether or not you choose to tell other people.


Carlos, I think a lot of people still think that sexuallity is a choice.

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## SMCengineer

> Originally Posted by FallenWyvern
> 
> 
> I always thought of marriage as right given to *all of us* by god.
> 
> 
>  *I always thought that the USA was a nation of laws based on a secular constitution,* 
> not a nation obliged to abide by the teachings of Rev. Jimmy Swaggart (FYI, he's the TV preacher who preached many a spirited sermon against sexual immorality, all the while he was patronizing cheap prostitutes in a Louisiana motel).


This part of his part is more relevant than what you quoted and he's absolutley right about it. Marriage should not be handled by the government. 



> Personally, I don't think government has a right to issue a marriage license, churches do.

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## CeeLo

> Carlos, I think a lot of people still think that sexuallity is a choice.


*I didn't want to go here, but here we go....* A little debate never really hurt anyone, right? Like I said, I don't have anything against gays, I even have a friend that is one and I think he is the coolest person, I just don't understand it.


Yes, I do think that sexuality is a choice. Not so much even a choice, but a fact of life. If you are born with Testosterone , Testicles, and a Penis, you should be looking for someone with Estrogen, Vagina, and a Clitoris. 

I believe that I have always been attracted to the female gender as a man. As far back as can remember, a girl was a facination for me. I believe my recolection takes me back to the 3rd grade. My son whos is in the 1st grade and even in pre-school took a liking to girls. 

I believe that it is just the way men and women are made, Like he (God) gave men test and women estrogen.

Then there is the point where Gay and Lesbian couples want to raise a family with kids and all. They can't naturally have one together, so they have to manipulate the system and either adopt or Test tube them. Then how will they raise those kids? Will they allow them to have their own outlook on gainess or will their minds be altered?

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## DSM4Life

edit

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## FallenWyvern

> This part of his part is more relevant than what you quoted and he's absolutley right about it. Marriage should not be handled by the government.





> *I didn't want to go here, but here we go....* A little debate never really hurt anyone, right? Like I said, I don't have anything against gays, I even have a friend that is one and I think he is the coolest person, I just don't understand it.
> 
> 
> Yes, I do think that sexuality is a choice. Not so much even a choice, but a fact of life. If you are born with Testosterone , Testicles, and a Penis, you should be looking for someone with Estrogen, Vagina, and a Clitoris. 
> 
> I believe that I have always been attracted to the female gender as a man. As far back as can remember, a girl was a facination for me. I believe my recolection takes me back to the 3rd grade. My son whos is in the 1st grade and even in pre-school took a liking to girls. 
> 
> I believe that it is just the way men and women are made, Like he (God) gave men test and women estrogen.
> 
> Then there is the point where Gay and Lesbian couples want to raise a family with kids and all. They can't naturally have one together, so they have to manipulate the system and either adopt or Test tube them. Then how will they raise those kids? Will they allow them to have their own outlook on gainess or will their minds be altered?


As a straight man to another straight man(I can't believe I am defending homosexuality).

Why would any one chose to be a minority that is oppressed? 

Homosexulity goes all the way back in history, did all those people chose that too?

Animals in the wild are commonly gay, do they chose that? Did your god make them gay too or do they chose?

Plumbing is plumbing. I don't think I will completely understand what it is like to be gay or why they are that way because it is what it is.

To all the gay guys, I am not closet. Sorry, not wired that way.


And wtf is with the having a friend that is gay, is it some sort of novelty to have a gay friend or know someone gay or have a gay uncle??

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## DSM4Life

> *I didn't want to go here, but here we go....* A little debate never really hurt anyone, right? Like I said, I don't have anything against gays, I even have a friend that is one and I think he is the coolest person, I just don't understand it.
> 
> 
> Yes, I do think that sexuality is a choice. Not so much even a choice, but a fact of life. If you are born with Testosterone , Testicles, and a Penis, you should be looking for someone with Estrogen, Vagina, and a Clitoris.


I stopped reading here so i can answer one part. 

I have a question for you. When did you choose to be straight ? This is a serious question. When did you sit down at the end of you bed and ask yourself "hmmm do i want to be straight or gay?"

NEVER

You just found yourself one day attracted to a girl and thought, wow she is hot. You went home pulled your pub then started pursuing women. Guess what ? That wasn't a choice you made. You just found something about that female sexually arousing and you went after it. You never decided it, it just happened.

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## CeeLo

Most of what you wrote was a bunch of jibberish! The only thing that I could understand was the last question. To answer that question. By me referencing a gay friend, I was showing that I do not discriminate against gays! It's defiently not a novelty, as you call it, but a sign of acceptance. However, I do not condone it!




> As a straight man to another straight man(I can't believe I am defending homosexuality).
> 
> Why would any one chose to be a minority that is oppressed? 
> 
> Homosexulity goes all the way back in history, did all those people chose that too?
> 
> Animals in the wild are commonly gay, do they chose that? Did your god make them gay too or do they chose?
> 
> Plumbing is plumbing. I don't think I will completely understand what it is like to be gay or why they are that way because it is what it is.
> ...

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## Coop77

Not a choice: sexuality, attraction, what gives you a boner
Choice: one's actions, "lifestyle", whether you get down with dudes or stay in closet forever

The whole argument about whether one's sexuality is a choice or not is silly. It comes down to semantics, and what you're referring to when you say "gay" - a lifestyle choice, or a sexuality. Of course what someone finds themselves sexually attracted to is not their choice. But whether someone chooses to act on their sexual urges, and go live in West Hollywood is their choice.

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## Carlos_E

> [B]I believe that I have always been attracted to the female gender as a man. As far back as can remember, a girl was a facination for me. I believe my recolection takes me back to the 3rd grade. My son whos is in the 1st grade and even in pre-school took a liking to girls. 
> 
> I believe that it is just the way men and women are made, Like he (God) gave men test and women estrogen.


Here is where your choice theory fails. I believe that I have always been attracted to the male gender as a man. As far back as I can remember, a male was a fascination for me. I believe my recollection takes me back to the 1st grade. I've liked boys when I was in the 1st grade and even in pre-school. You know how kids give cards and gifts for valentines day? When I was in 1st grade I gave cards and gifts for all of the boys, none for the girls. I had my first crush in elementary school on a boy.

I believe that it is just the way I am man, Like he (God) made me this way.



> [B]Then there is the point where Gay and Lesbian couples want to raise a family with kids and all. They can't naturally have one together, so they have to manipulate the system and either adopt or Test tube them. Then how will they raise those kids? Will they allow them to have their own outlook on gainess or will their minds be altered?


I have two male friends who have gay parents and both are straight. Having gay parents does not alter your sexuality just as me having straight parents did not alter mine.

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## Tock

> Ok, I give. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinons. This is a subject that is way to HOT for me to handle. I seem to be out number and I'm jumping ship.


Nope, not too hot to handle, not if you know something about the subject you speak on . . . 

As far as I'm concerned, we're glad to have ya chime in on this topic. If you say something intelligent and have corroborating info to back up your points, you'll earn the esteem and affection of everyone between here and Boca Raton. If you merely repeat someone else's half-baked BS, prepare to meet with energetic thumping and revulsion. 






> I don't have a problem with people who choose to live that life style, but it just aint for me.


What, did another guy propose to you?

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## Tock

> This part of his part is more relevant than what you quoted and he's absolutley right about it. Marriage should not be handled by the government.


If government doesn't keep track of who's declared a personal partnership (or civil union, or whatever you want to call it), then who will? 

Gov't shouldn't have to rely on church documents for proof of who's in a civil union and who isn't. And there is no reason that a private religious organization should be able to affect the legal standing of any US citizen before a court of law.

Or do you disagree?

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## FallenWyvern

> If government doesn't keep track of who's declared a personal partnership (or civil union, or whatever you want to call it), then who will? 
> 
> Gov't shouldn't have to rely on church documents for proof of who's in a civil union and who isn't. And there is no reason that a private religious organization should be able to affect the legal standing of any US citizen before a court of law.
> 
> Or do you disagree?




Churches get to do nothing with the government as far as documents.

Marriage 99% of the time is a religious event. The government shouldn't be involved in typically religious events. Do you need a government certificate for a bar mitzvahs? However, marriage is a legal designation.

The government should change the word marriage in all legal context to domestic partnership.


I personally was offended when I was married, when the minister said "by the power invested in me by God and the State of California, I now pronounce you man and wife.

WTF, how do you put the power of god and the power of California in the same sentence?

Religious beliefs are generally very illogical(look at jihad) and government shouldn't have anything to do with them.

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## Act of God

> I won't attempt to argue what "God created" or what anybody's religion says about gays, because it doesn't matter. This isn't Iran. We don't have a national religion and religious law. 
> 
> When you say "I'm against gay marriage because I'm Christian and God created.. blah blah", you're showing that you don't understand a basic tenet of the US constitution.


Actually, you don't understand the constitution. There is no right to marriage, because it isn't something the government has POWER to preside over. Marriage is a religious rite and as far as I give a shit anyone can get married. Go marry your sister if it makes you happy.

However, you can't force people to recognize your marriage if their religion says you can't be married. Religious freedom: Its a bitch when it isn't giving you extra liberties eh?

The only equitable solution is simple: Eliminate marriage by the government and issue civil unions to ALL. The entire argument is based around the word marriage, which is easily circumvented. Get your civil union license and shack up,then go find someone to marry you whether it be Elvis, a ship captain, a priest, or the Undertaker.

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## Act of God

> I always thought of marriage as right given to *all of us* by god. 
> 
> If *your* religion allows gay marriage then how could the state of California(or whatever) overrule god.
> 
> Personally, I don't think government has a right to issue a marriage license, churches do.


You are correct. This is just another example of an overbearing government intruding upon our lives. I love how the liberal abortion mafia mantra is "keep your laws off my body!" and the gay mafia screams "what we do in private is our business" but when it comes to marriage they are screaming for intervention and laws.

hypocrites.

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## Coop77

> Actually, you don't understand the constitution. There is no right to marriage, because it isn't something the government has POWER to preside over. Marriage is a religious rite and as far as I give a shit anyone can get married. Go marry your sister if it makes you happy.
> 
> However, you can't force people to recognize your marriage if their religion says you can't be married. Religious freedom: Its a bitch when it isn't giving you extra liberties eh?
> 
> The only equitable solution is simple: Eliminate marriage by the government and issue civil unions to ALL. The entire argument is based around the word marriage, which is easily circumvented. Get your civil union license and shack up,then go find someone to marry you whether it be Elvis, a ship captain, a priest, or the Undertaker.


I didn't say there was anything in the constitution about marriage. I was saying that those who think our laws should be based on religious doctrine (which is ultimately what all the anti gay rights arguments come down to) don't understand the importance of separation of church and state. 

I totally agree with everything you said (except for the first sentence of course), and with your solution. The religious element of "marriage" and the necessary government recognition (marriage license) of a domestic partnership for tax benefits, insurance benefits, living will, inheritance, etc.. totally don't mix. When the religious ideals of some clash with the freedoms of others, we have problems.

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## DSM4Life

cpreasha you never answered my post.

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## Act of God

> I didn't say there was anything in the constitution about marriage. I was saying that those who think our laws should be based on religious doctrine (which is ultimately what all the anti gay rights arguments come down to) don't understand the importance of separation of church and state. 
> 
> I totally agree with everything you said (except for the first sentence of course), and with your solution. The religious element of "marriage" and the necessary government recognition (marriage license) of a domestic partnership for tax benefits, insurance benefits, living will, inheritance, etc.. totally don't mix. When the religious ideals of some clash with the freedoms of others, we have problems.


My bad, I thought you were saying the constitution provides for gay marriage...or any kind of marriage.

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## CeeLo

> cpreasha you never answered my post.


I thought I did answer your post in post #20. To me I don't think that I needed to make a choice. It was understood and it was the Norm. Maybe when I was like 3 or 4, I said "Man, *she* sure looks pretty and I wonder if *she* will kiss me".

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## Carlos_E

> I thought I did answer your post in post #20. To me I don't think that I needed to make a choice. It was understood and it was the Norm. Maybe when I was like 3 or 4, I said "Man, *she* sure looks pretty and I wonder if *she* will kiss me".


What you're not getting or refusing to understand it's the norm for us. I was like 3 or 4, I said "Man, *he* sure looks attractive. I wonder if *he* will kiss me".

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## the_rebirth

> I bet other states will follow just for the economic benefit. I guess the saying is true. You want something changed, hit them in the wallet!


Oh that statement is ohh soo true!! 

( btw: carlos_e nice sig pic! I have not been here for a while now)

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## DSM4Life

> What you're not getting or refusing to understand it's the norm for us. I was like 3 or 4, I said "Man, *he* sure looks attractive. I wonder if *he* will kiss me".


I thought he would have been able to pick up on that on his own , guess not  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## SMCengineer

> If government doesn't keep track of who's declared a personal partnership (or civil union, or whatever you want to call it), then who will?


So, you need the government to tell you who your friends are or do you just want the government to make a friendship official? I don't understand where you think the government needs to intervene in this part of your life or why you even think this is part of the governments responsibility. 




> Gov't shouldn't have to rely on church documents for proof of who's in a civil union and who isn't. And there is no reason that a private religious organization should be able to affect the legal standing of any US citizen before a court of law.
> 
> Or do you disagree?


I don't disagree at all. In fact, this is exactly what I'm arguing. I don't understand the confusion. Government shouldn't be involved in marriage, thus church documents wouldn't matter in a US court of law.

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## Coop77

> So, you need the government to tell you who your friends are or do you just want the government to make a friendship official? I don't understand where you think the government needs to intervene in this part of your life or why you even think this is part of the governments responsibility.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point of view, but I don't see any way around some kind of official government acknowledgment of marriage/domestic partnerships. Tax benefits, health insurance, life insurance, living wills, inheritance.. many different things typically only accorded to legal spouses would become really complicated. 

For instance, say a rich dude died and two different women claimed to be his widow. You've got to have something documented.

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## FallenWyvern

> Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point of view, but I don't see any way around some kind of official government acknowledgment of marriage/domestic partnerships. Tax benefits, health insurance, life insurance, living wills, inheritance.. many different things typically only accorded to legal spouses would become really complicated. 
> 
> For instance, say a rich dude died and two different women claimed to be his widow. You've got to have something documented.



I don't know why you would think that, there shouldn't be any special tax benefits(I can't think of any good ones anyways that exists now), health insurance is usually six months domestic partnership, life insurance has beneficiary designations, living wills can be drawn up to say anything, inheritance w/o a trust goes through probate.

Now if someone is a dumb ass that dies without a will or a trust, the government determines next of kin through probate anyways. Proof of residence would fix that real quick in your two woman scenario, provided there are no kids.

Marriage needs to be removed from all legal documents and substituted with something else, but I could see the domestic partnership/civil union designation not being necessary too.

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## CeeLo

> I thought he would have been able to pick up on that on his own , guess not


I picked up on what you guys were saying, but you asked when *I* made a choice?

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## DSM4Life

> I picked up on what you guys were saying, but you asked when *I* made a choice?


I can see by your statement you didn't and still don't understand my point.

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## CeeLo

> I can see by your statement you didn't and still don't understand my point.


OK....DSM, you want me to see that I didn't have to make a choice. It was just the way I was made! Correct. I will go with that.

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## Coop77

> I picked up on what you guys were saying, but you asked when *I* made a choice?


You didn't choose what turns you on, so why would you think other people do? Some guys like big boobs, small boobs, blonds, brunettes.. some guys like guys. Sexuality is diverse.

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## Coop77

> I don't know why you would think that, there shouldn't be any special tax benefits(I can't think of any good ones anyways that exists now), health insurance is usually six months domestic partnership, life insurance has beneficiary designations, living wills can be drawn up to say anything, inheritance w/o a trust goes through probate.
> 
> Now if someone is a dumb ass that dies without a will or a trust, the government determines next of kin through probate anyways. Proof of residence would fix that real quick in your two woman scenario, provided there are no kids.
> 
> Marriage needs to be removed from all legal documents and substituted with something else, but I could see the domestic partnership/civil union designation not being necessary too.


It's not that it's impossible to arrange all those things without marriage, it's just more complicated. For unmarried couples to buy a house, have joint financial accounts, etc they have to draw up all kinds of contracts and shit for things that would be inherent if they were married. 

Also, if you abolish marriage as we know it, you're abolishing divorce, which would make splitting joint assets complicated. One partner would always claim "we were never married, therefore it's all mine." You can think of examples of ways people would get screwed all day.

----------


## FallenWyvern

> It's not that it's impossible to arrange all those things without marriage, it's just more complicated. For unmarried couples to buy a house, have joint financial accounts, etc they have to draw up all kinds of contracts and shit for things that would be inherent if they were married. 
> 
> Also, if you abolish marriage as we know it, you're abolishing divorce, which would make splitting joint assets complicated. One partner would always claim "we were never married, therefore it's all mine." You can think of examples of ways people would get screwed all day.


I am only talking about the *word* marriage as legal destination, it needs to be called something else. Marriage is a religious thing. 

This isn't complicated.

----------


## Tock

> So, you need the government to tell you who your friends are or do you just want the government to make a friendship official? I don't understand where you think the government needs to intervene in this part of your life or why you even think this is part of the governments responsibility.


If the gov't is going to give benefits based on who's married to who, then for legal purposes, the gov't is gonna have to have a definition of legal marriage, and somebody is gonna have to keep track of who's married to who. Otherwise, people could claim to be married to people they aren't, or could claim they aren't married to people they are. Not knowing who's legally paired with who would be a problem when dividing up estates when one of 'em dies.

In state governments, it's usually the Secretary of State's office that keeps track of what corporation is owned by another corporation. It's a database like that that somebody somewhere has to maintain. If the gov't doesn't do it, who will? Microsoft?

----------


## Tock

> I am only talking about the *word* marriage as legal destination, it needs to be called something else. Marriage is a religious thing. 
> 
> This isn't complicated.


I agree.

However, lots of gay people want to be married; they want that word. Lots of religious people want to keep that word as a religious term. Some people say the term "Civil Union" is sufficient for all legal marriages. Other people disagree.

Whatever the choice finally is, you can be sure that somebody isn't gonna like what it's named. IMHO, it makes no difference to me, so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.

----------


## DSM4Life

> I agree.
> 
> However, lots of gay people want to be married; they want that word. Lots of religious people want to keep that word as a religious term. Some people say the term "Civil Union" is sufficient for all legal marriages. Other people disagree.
> 
> Whatever the choice finally is, you can be sure that somebody isn't gonna like what it's named. IMHO,* it makes no difference to me, so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.*


I agree.

----------


## Kale

> *I didn't want to go here, but here we go....* A little debate never really hurt anyone, right? Like I said, I don't have anything against gays, I even have a friend that is one and I think he is the coolest person, I just don't understand it.
> 
> 
> *Yes, I do think that sexuality is a choice*. Not so much even a choice, but a fact of life. If you are born with Testosterone , Testicles, and a Penis, you should be looking for someone with Estrogen, Vagina, and a Clitoris. 
> 
> I believe that I have always been attracted to the female gender as a man. As far back as can remember, a girl was a facination for me. I believe my recolection takes me back to the 3rd grade. My son whos is in the 1st grade and even in pre-school took a liking to girls. 
> 
> I believe that it is just the way men and women are made, Like he (God) gave men test and women estrogen.
> 
> Then there is the point where Gay and Lesbian couples want to raise a family with kids and all. They can't naturally have one together, so they have to manipulate the system and either adopt or Test tube them. Then how will they raise those kids? Will they allow them to have their own outlook on gainess or will their minds be altered?


You seriously believe this statement. ? If so I am flabbergasted by your ignorance dude !!! Why would somebody deliberately choose to be Gay, or in my case Bi-sexual ?

----------


## Carlos_E

> You seriously believe this statement. ? If so I am flabbergasted by your ignorance dude !!! Why would somebody deliberately choose to be Gay, or in my case Bi-sexual ?


I wouldn't consider you bi. I'm not sure what to consider you since you like girly boys. That makes you leaning more towards the straight side because they have female parts.  :Smilie:

----------


## DSM4Life

> I wouldn't consider you bi. I'm not sure what to consider you since you like girly boys. That makes you leaning more towards the straight side because they have female parts.


Bi-sexual = confused gay person.

----------


## CeeLo

> You seriously believe this statement. ? If so I am flabbergasted by your ignorance dude !!! Why would somebody deliberately choose to be Gay, or in my case Bi-sexual ?


I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.

Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.

I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! *How do you explain that?*

As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels.

----------


## DSM4Life

> I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.
> 
> Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.
> 
> I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, *my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! How do you explain that?*
> 
> As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels.


Easy , society. 

Seems like you are a bit out there with your thinking and are a little hard headed so i won't waste my time with it.

----------


## FallenWyvern

> I agree.
> 
> However, lots of gay people want to be married; they want that word. Lots of religious people want to keep that word as a religious term. Some people say the term "Civil Union" is sufficient for all legal marriages. Other people disagree.
> 
> Whatever the choice finally is, you can be sure that somebody isn't gonna like what it's named. IMHO, it makes no difference to me, *so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.*


I agree. 


The word thing is problematic as it is religious.

----------


## Kale

> I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.
> 
> Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.
> 
> I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! *How do you explain that?*
> 
> As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! *How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels*.


Complete garbage !!!! But you are obviously one eyed so I wont bother any more

----------


## SMCengineer

> IMHO, it makes no difference to me, so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.


This is the point of removing the word "marriage" from government. Marriage is a religious institution (not limited to Christianity) and should be treated as such.

----------


## CeeLo

> This is the point of *removing the word "marriage" from government*. Marriage is a religious institution (not limited to Christianity) and should be treated as such.


Why does the word itself have to be removed? The meaning of marriage is described as "any close or intimate association or union". There are also other meanings, but as long as this definiton is upheld, it can include anything or anyone. You can marry to monkeys if you want. Shoot ask a waitress in a restaurant, they marry ketchup bottles!

The only thing is wheter the government decides to accept it as LEGAL and write it into the Law books. Seems as though California has done so already, so they are well on their way.

I do think that the people should have a vote and if the majority says its, ok, then let it be. You will always have those that don't agree. That's what makes up a "public of people" with different ideas and actions.

----------


## FallenWyvern

> Easy , society. 
> 
> Seems like you are a bit out there with your thinking and are a little hard headed so i won't waste my time with it.





> Complete garbage !!!! But you are obviously one eyed so I wont bother any more


Ditto.

----------


## Peducho0113

Times are changing; therefore, society has to adapt to the new changes. As long as we all respect each other there is nothing wrong IMOP

----------


## Carlos_E

> I do think that the people should have a vote and if the majority says its, ok, then let it be. You will always have those that don't agree. That's what makes up a "public of people" with different ideas and actions.


The majority did not want integration. So no, the majority should not have a say in limiting the rights of other people.

----------


## DeputyLoneWolf

> I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.
> 
> Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.
> 
> I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! *How do you explain that?*
> 
> As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels.


Very good post: Whether people want to admit it or not that is not how they are made and they have made a concious desision at one point. 

It is very simple gay is not "natural" in any way shape or form. It is very simpe as stated above. I hope that everyone is more mature than to go crying to admin becasue I simply and and nicely voice my opinion. I don't get suspended for just voicing my opinion on this matter. 

Also many people turn "gay" as a result of being molested at a very early age.

----------


## DeputyLoneWolf

> The majority did not want integration. So no, the majority should not have a say in limiting the rights of other people.


Carlos, carlos, carlos, you don't get it do you? You were born black. That means you did not have a choice in the matter. Anyonw has a choice to be gay. Any reasonable person can see it is foolish to try to compare the two issues.

----------


## CeeLo

> The majority did not want integration. So no, the majority should not have a say in limiting the rights of other people.


Ok, you being an Obama follower. The masses cried out for Obama and he had the Majority votes in all catergories, correct? So then since the majority said let's vote Obama, then with your rationale, we should put Hillary on the ticket for Demorcratic Presidental Nomiee and Not Obama!

Majority should always have the the right to rule! This is how it works in politics the majority of the house gets the bill. Why should it be different because you're gay?

I wonder though if this would be like unequal rights, for example, minorities and women are allowed special privilidges because they are minorities or women. So should we allow this to happen under Gay rights? There is NO such thing, is there?

----------


## Coop77

> Very good post: Whether people want to admit it or not that is not how they are made and *they have made a concious desision at one point.*





> Also many people turn "gay" as a result of being molested at a very early age.


Don't these two statements contradict each other? In one breath you're saying they "made a conscious decision" to be attracted to the same sex, then you say they were "turned gay" by some event in their life outside of their control. 
Please explain.

----------


## 39+1

> It's pretty easy. God created and loves all people except you because you have a tattoo around your naval. 
> 
> Sounds pretty silly right? It's just as silly to say god hates gays because of something that makes them different.


Go get em carlos,

----------


## CeeLo

> Don't these two statements contradict each other? In one breath you're saying they "made a conscious decision" to be attracted to the same sex, then you say they were "turned gay" by some event in their life outside of their control. 
> Please explain.


I will try to explain what Deputy was trying to say. Some people "turn gay" after being molested or abused by someone that they trusted in thier life that may have happen to be of the opposite sex. 

For example a young girl gets molested by her step father and then after this she sees men as abominable and unapproachable and so they turn to another female for comfort. I really don't have an explanation as to what would happen if a young boy was molested by an older man.


Deputy, feel free to expand or point out your side if I am incorrect.

----------


## CeeLo

> Go get em carlos,


Really intelligible and we are glad that you could stop by and drop off your $0.02 (cents). That comment Carlos made was soooo long ago and at the beginning of the thread. I doubt if you even read thru the rest of the thread.  :Nutkick:

----------


## DSM4Life

DeputyLoneWolf cpreasha :

It would be one thing if you both said "I _personally_ feel that its a personal choice and not an individuals choice."

I would totally respect your decision and there would be none of this going back and forth arguing. What we have here are two people giving us *their opinions* and stating them as facts and it make you two sound quite ummm dumb.

We (gay members) can comment on this topic because we live it everyday! You don't. So if you have a question ask it but don't try and explain something that you have no clue about.

----------


## Carlos_E

> DeputyLoneWolf cpreasha :
> 
> It would be one thing if you both said "I _personally_ feel that its a personal choice and not an individuals choice."
> 
> I would totally respect your decision and there would be none of this going back and forth arguing. What we have here are two people giving us *their opinions* and stating them as facts and it make you two sound quite ummm dumb.
> 
> We (gay members) can comment on this topic because we live it everyday! You don't. So if you have a question ask it but don't try and explain something that you have no clue about.


That's what kills me. Straight people TELLING me why I am gay as if they're the athourity on the subject. I am gay because God made me this way. Just as I was made with my skin color. Both things I cannot change. That's what they don't get.

Am I supposed to go out and date women? Pretend to like them? Pretend and have sex with them? That's ridiculous! Dumb people draining.

----------


## Tock

> It is very simple gay is not "natural" in any way shape or form.


Check out this news article: "Same sex couples common in the wild"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...3ggM8b0fpxieAA
You will see that homosexuality is indeed quite natural and normal in many many species of animals.








> Also many people turn "gay" as a result of being molested at a very early age.


Ok, so when women are molested by men at an early age, they hate men and become lesbians. But when boys are molested at an early age, they hate men and become -- lesbians?

----------


## Carlos_E

> I will try to explain what Deputy was trying to say. Some people "turn gay" after being molested or abused by someone that they trusted in thier life that may have happen to be of the opposite sex. 
> 
> For example a young girl gets molested by her step father and then after this she sees men as abominable and unapproachable and so they turn to another female for comfort. I really don't have an explanation as to what would happen if a young boy was molested by an older man.
> 
> 
> Deputy, feel free to expand or point out your side if I am incorrect.


Another silly disproved argument. Seriously go to the library and read a book instead of repeating "stuff you heard." 

I was never molested. I had a GREAT relationship with my father and mother. So gay people are not mentally unstable or gay because they were molested.

Why does homosexuality bother you? Do you feel threathened? Are you afriad that you may "turn" gay as you put it. 

One thing that have personally proven is the biggest homophobes always turn out to be the biggest homosexuals. I knew a guy freshmen year of college who was the biggest homophobe and I screwed him senior year and he wouldn't stop calling me cause he wanted some more dick. 

Are you having thoughts late at night? Is this why the idea threatens you? Just so you know having a tattoo around your naval is considered gay. Do you have a tramp stamp on your lower back to?

----------


## Carlos_E

> Ok, so when women are molested by men at an early age, they hate men and become lesbians. But when boys are molested at an early age, they hate men and become -- lesbians?


 :LOL:

----------


## Tock

> I will try to explain what Deputy was trying to say. Some people "turn gay" after being molested or abused by someone that they trusted in thier life that may have happen to be of the opposite sex.


Some people take up tennis after being molested, but is there a cause-and-effect here? 
Can you assert there is a cause-and-effect between molesting and sexual orientation? No, I didn't think so. There is no research that draws that conclusion. Only speculation by armchair speculators . . .

----------


## DSM4Life

> Just so you know having a tattoo around your naval is considered gay. Do you have a tramp stamp on your lower back to?


 :1laugh: 




Tock 

 :Haha:  :Haha:

----------


## thegodfather

> Carlos, carlos, carlos, you don't get it do you? You were born black. That means you did not have a choice in the matter. Anyonw has a choice to be gay. Any reasonable person can see it is foolish to try to compare the two issues.



No, any person with an advanced education can see that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and have gotten yourself in way over your head. In this thread, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=347354 I provided EVIDENCE, peer reviewed RESEARCH which disproves what you are saying.

DeputyLoneWolf... Are you a Doctor (MD or DO)? Do you hold a MS or PhD in Biology, Genomics, or Physiology? If not, why are you asserting this opinion of yours as FACT? You are doing so additionally, without any peer reviewed scientific information with which to back up your assertations. Can you point me to a study in any of the major journals, JAMA, NEJM, etc., which can substantiate the claims you are making? The claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that no biological factors are involved. 

I've never seen a more clear example of someone making claims that they cannot substantiate. An opinion which you have no doubt formed from associating with other like minded (i.e. close minded) religious right wing conservatives. If I am wrong please correct me. Im actually hoping you can prove me wrong, state your credentials, and the evidence behind your statements that sexual orientation is a choice.

----------


## RA

I just want to know who would lead when dancing at the reception?

----------


## CeeLo

OK Carlos, DSM, and anyone else that has debated this subject with me as to wether you "decided" to become gay or you were "born" that way, I can not disproved your logic and if I am honest with myself, I would have to say that I "DID NOT" have to make a decision one way or another. I just was attracted to females for as long as I can remember. 

I have NO way of reading your minds or taping into the intermost nervous system of any one idividual. So therefore, I must take you for your word and since the majority of you (gay) men seem to conclude that it is NOT a choice, I will concede!

I am interested in the idea and the discovery of "what turns men gay". You see, I am NOT gay, but have been told that I might be in the closet. DON'T get happy, I assure you that I am NOT as I consider it repulsive to even think of taking part in such activity (man on man), NOT to offend any of you. I guess it is because of the way that I carry myself and because of how much attention I pay to myself when I am grooming and getting dressed. Another reason is because I have been told that I have a low sex drive and I knew this, but just thought it was the way I was, SO I decided to go see the endocronoligist and now I am on HRT and it has improved. Good stuff that HRT!

Another reason is that I have a first cousin that I grew up with and there were 8 guy cousins and 3 female cousins, we were all close and we were literally 6 mos apart from 1st to last. The one cousin after graduating high school and going to college "decided" (you see, there's that word again) that he was gay and came home for Christmas one year and sprung it on the rest of the family. He was the normal guy growing up and his brother got married to a woman and then BOOM!

I also have 2 sons, one of which (my youngest) has some female tendicies that worry me. He likes to hang around girls and do girly things, like cheerleading and gymnastics, rather than playing football and basketball (although he is good at it). I pray to God that he will NOT come home for Christmas with a SURPRISE!

----------


## CeeLo

> I just want to know who would lead when dancing at the reception?


That avvy would turn any GAY man straight! Holy Smokes! How can you look at that and say I want the GUY she's with?  :Hmmmm:

----------


## DSM4Life

> Another reason is that I have a first cousin that I grew up with and there were 8 guy cousins and 3 female cousins, we were all close and we were literally 6 mos apart from 1st to last. The one cousin after graduating high school and going to college "decided" (you see, there's that word again) that he was gay and came home for Christmas one year and sprung it on the rest of the family. He was the normal guy growing up and his brother got married to a woman and then BOOM!
> !


In most of these cases he was always gay but because of how society treats gay people most decide to stay in the closet. Again who in their right minds would want to live this life !? I had multiply LTR with women but after a while i started to notice i was attracted to men. I still dated women to be as you would say "normal." That only lasted for so long before i started to drive myself insane and came out to family and friends.

I been out for a couple years now but i still can't be out at work as i know (for a fact, from another guy) it would effect me career wise, how sad is that ?

----------


## CeeLo

> In most of these cases he was always gay but because of how society treats gay people most decide to stay in the closet. Again who in their right minds would want to live this life !? I had multiply LTR with women but after a while i started to notice i was attracted to men. I still dated women to be as you would say "normal." That only lasted for so long before i started to drive myself insane and came out to family and friends.
> 
> I been out for a couple years now but i still can't be out at work as i know (for a fact, from another guy) it would effect me career wise, how sad is that ?



Ys, that is sad. It reminds me of that movie with Tom Hanks and Denzel Whasington when Tom Hanks got Aids and hired Denzel as his lawyer after getting fired from the "FIRM" (that he help make) when they found out that he was GAY. I cried in that movie when he died at the end of the show before he won his case.

----------


## DSM4Life

> Ys, that is sad. It reminds me of that movie with Tom Hanks and Denzel Whasington when Tom Hanks got Aids and hired Denzel as his lawyer after getting fired from the "FIRM" (that he help make) when they found out that he was GAY. I cried in that movie when he died at the end of the show before he won his case.


That movie is called "Philadelphia," ironically i am from phila ! 

It was a good flick. Thats gives you a small glimpse of what some gay people face _everyday_.

----------


## Carlos_E

> I been out for a couple years now but i still can't be out at work as i know (for a fact, from another guy) it would effect me career wise, how sad is that ?


I'm out at work and I don't give a fuck. I dare someone to say some shit to me. They're afraid I'd rape them.  :LOL:

----------


## DSM4Life

> I'm out at work and I don't give a fuck. I dare someone to say some shit to me. They're afraid I'd rape them.


lol I really could care less what they think but recently a co-worker did come out at work and me being cool with the bosses i get all the behind the scene gossip and it ain't pretty. Let just say it could effect any future promotions.

----------


## gst528i

I don't have any gay friends, not out of choice or anything. But from what i understand it's not a choice since it's an imbalance of some kind of hormone so therefore it cannot be a choice. No body has a choice to be 5'2 or 6ft tall, it's all based on genetics.

----------


## inheritmylife

> I'm out at work and I don't give a fuck. I dare someone to say some shit to me. They're afraid I'd rape them.


Being a big-as-hell black dude is still intimidating, gay or not.

----------


## RA

I dont think its a hormone imbalance. Add more test to Carlos=wants sex w/guys more :LOL: 





> I don't have any gay friends, not out of choice or anything. But from what i understand it's not a choice since it's an imbalance of some kind of hormone so therefore it cannot be a choice. No body has a choice to be 5'2 or 6ft tall, it's all based on genetics.

----------


## Carlos_E

> I dont think its a hormone imbalance. Add more test to Carlos=wants sex w/guys more


Wanna come over?  :Big Grin:

----------


## RA

lol...maybe next time..





> Wanna come over?

----------


## gst528i

this is an intresting read. 

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/mag...es_people_gay/

----------


## CeeLo

> this is an intresting read. 
> 
> http://www.boston.com/news/globe/mag...es_people_gay/


Sorry, but can you give me the jist of that. It was kinda of lengthy.

----------


## Carlos_E

> Sorry, but can you give me the jist of that. It was kinda of lengthy.


Yeah, we wouldn't want you learning anything or forming an opinion based on facts.

----------


## CeeLo

> Yeah, we wouldn't want you learning anything or forming an opinion based on facts.


Sorry dude, but my computer time is a little limited today.

----------


## DeputyLoneWolf

> Don't these two statements contradict each other? In one breath you're saying they "made a conscious decision" to be attracted to the same sex, then you say they were "turned gay" by some event in their life outside of their control. 
> Please explain.


No I was saying that being exposed to that kind of thing in that way really can screw with someones head as to what is normal ie Man and Woman.

----------


## DeputyLoneWolf

> That's what kills me. Straight people TELLING me why I am gay as if they're the athourity on the subject. I am gay because God made me this way. Just as I was made with my skin color. Both things I cannot change. That's what they don't get.
> 
> Am I supposed to go out and date women? Pretend to like them? Pretend and have sex with them? That's ridiculous! Dumb people draining.


No God did not make you gay. That is against his nature and if you don't believe me read the Bible yourself (although you probably dismiss it as fiction anyway). He designed this earth to be very orderly and and everything has its place. Like a man with a woman. Not a man with a man. These are not my opinions, they are God's and even if I felt different who am I to argue with the creator of the universe?

And no, I'm not saying you should go out and have sex with women. But since we're on a this topic, God also all forms of sexual immorality. I am curious though what are your thoughts on this?

----------


## DeputyLoneWolf

> Don't these two statements contradict each other? In one breath you're saying they "made a conscious decision" to be attracted to the same sex, then you say they were "turned gay" by some event in their life outside of their control. 
> Please explain.


No Coop, I'm saying that because some were exposed to that from a molestation (which is a sad and terrible thing) at an early age they are then confused to what is normal. All people that go down that route make a concious decision.

----------


## FallenWyvern

> No God did not make you gay. That is against his nature and if you don't believe me read the Bible yourself (although you probably dismiss it as fiction anyway). He designed this earth to be very orderly and and everything has its place. Like a man with a woman. Not a man with a man. These are not my opinions, they are God's and even if I felt different who am I to argue with the creator of the universe?
> 
> And no, I'm not saying you should go out and have sex with women. But since we're on a this topic, God also all forms of sexual immorality. I am curious though what are your thoughts on this?


Does god make animals gay? They exist naturally in nature. Are they immoral?

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## thegodfather

> No Coop, I'm saying that because some were exposed to that from a molestation (which is a sad and terrible thing) at an early age they are then confused to what is normal. All people that go down that route make a concious decision.


I guess you totally ignored my rebuttal to you where I proved you incorrect when you asserted that sexual orientation is a choice. But hey, just as I might dismiss the bible as fiction, you might dismiss my science as witchcraft and want to drown me or burn me alive at the stake. Religious zealouts like yourself did that, not so long ago either, 3 or 400 years. 

If we use the premise that God was the architect of DNA, therefore designing all living things.....and we have thus learned that sexual orientation is very much PROVEN to be reliant on the genetic code and the way the brain develops BECAUSE of the DNA/genetic code, then one must only assume that God designed it that way. Please look back to my post and at least address what I said.

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## Act of God

> Does god make animals gay? They exist naturally in nature. Are they immoral?


That's a poor argument, there are many things that occur in nature that are undesireable and "bad" (cancer, birth defects, liberals, heart disease). I prefer "mind your freakin business!" as a better rationale.

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## Peducho0113

> No Coop, I'm saying that because some were exposed to that from a molestation (which is a sad and terrible thing) at an early age they are then confused to what is normal. All people that go down that route make a concious decision.


Child molestation defenitely has many Post Psycological problems. Now to say that because of it, people became gay is very steriotipical.

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> That's a poor argument, there are many things that occur in nature that are undesireable and "bad" (cancer, birth defects, liberals, heart disease). I prefer "mind your freakin business!" as a better rationale.



LOl good post.

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> I guess you totally ignored my rebuttal to you where I proved you incorrect when you asserted that sexual orientation is a choice. But hey, just as I might dismiss the bible as fiction, you might dismiss my science as witchcraft and want to drown me or burn me alive at the stake. Religious zealouts like yourself did that, not so long ago either, 3 or 400 years. 
> 
> If we use the premise that God was the architect of DNA, therefore designing all living things.....and we have thus learned that sexual orientation is very much PROVEN to be reliant on the genetic code and the way the brain develops BECAUSE of the DNA/genetic code, then one must only assume that God designed it that way. Please look back to my post and at least address what I said.



Not ignoring you I just havent had time to be on here for more than 5 min lately. I will be happy to answer when I have more time.

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## Peducho0113

I am gay and I was never Molested as a Child.

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## DSM4Life

> I am gay and I was never Molested as a Child.


Would you like to be molested as an adult ? :Wink/Grin:

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## Carlos_E

> Would you like to be molested as an adult ?


 :LOL:

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## Act of God

Anyway you look at it, men are pigs!

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