# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Selegiline also L-Deprenyl

## steroid.com 1

Probably one of the most important anti-aging medicines a person can take in my opinion. My TRT Doc added this compound to my DHEA/Pregnenolone cream and I can tell you first hand the huge positive affect it has on me. Mild feelings of a wonderful uphoria (just feel damn good all the time), biig increase in libido and neuro protection. 

Deprenyl reduces the age-related decline of dopamine, increasing its availability to preserve youthful brain activity 

Deprenyl was originally developed as a ‘psychic energizer’, designed to integrate some amphetamine-like brain effects with anti-depressant effects. *It has since been shown to protect nerve cells against a wide, and growing, number of neurotoxins, and has been shown to be a neuroprotection/neurorescue agent when nerve cells are exposed to damaging or stressful conditions. 
*

Extending life-expectancy 

Professor Joseph Knoll proved that Deprenyl improves the availability of dopamine, slows its age-related decline and helps maintain healthy brain cells by acting as a selective* MAO-B inhibitor*. 

Professor Knoll emphasized that the nigrostriatal tract, the tiny DA-using nerve cluster in the basal ganglia (‘old brain’), typically dies off at an average rate of 13% per decade starting around age 45 in humans. This fact sets the human lifespan at about 115 years, since by that age the nigral neuron population would have dropped below 10% of its original number, at which time death ensues even if in all other respects the organism were healthy. 

Therefore, human longevity is in-part governed by the rate of dopamine decline. Its support and enhancement means not only longer life, but lucid mental capabilities too. In fact, four different rat studies and one dog study have shown Deprenyl to be an effective life-extension agent. 

*Based on the sum total of research, Knoll has suggested that if Deprenyl were used from the 40s on, and only modestly lowered the nigrostriatal neuron death rate – say, from 13% to 10% per decade – then the average human lifespan might increase by 15 years.* 

Other uses 

Deprenyl has become a standard treatment for Parkinson’s disease, *and thanks to its aphrodisiac effects, helps to improve sexual function and desire (much more so for men than woman) and I can atest to the fact that it does increase libido...wonderfully so 
*
Conditions for which Deprenyl appears to be therapeutic or ameliorative include: cerebral infarction (stroke), *hormone inadequacy*, amyotrophic lateralizing sclerosis (lou gherig's disease), fatigue, chronic pain, gastric ulcers, senile dementia, sexual dysfunction, multiple sclerosis, learning difficulties, blepharospasm, hypertension depression and cancer. 

Dr. Clyde Reynolds, a clinician who specializes in the metabolic therapy of cancer in Washington State, discovered that cancer patients invariably have imbalances of the neurotransmitters, epinephrine, norepinephrine and serotonin. Dr. Reynolds has found that Deprenyl is highly effective in restoring the normal levels and normal balance of these neurotransmitters. He believes that normalization of the balance of these neurotransmitters is an absolute necessity for the effective treatment of all cancers. 

Dosage: 
Parkinson and Alzheimer's disease patients are often treated with very high doses of 20mg daily (usually along with other drugs). *Anti-aging doses (dependant on age and condition) are more likely to be 2.5mg to 5mg once, twice or three times a week, or, 1mg to 3mg per day, with regular breaks.* 

Deprenyl tablets are selegiline hydrochloride, which is deprenyl bonded to an in-organic molecule. However, liquid deprenyl citrate (LDC) is selegiline bonded to an organic molecule, one reason why the liquid deprenyl citrate is considered to be superior. This form is generally recognized as the most pure and potent form of deprenyl available. It also allows precise titration for anti-aging purposes, as each ml drop in the bottle is equivalent to 1mg deprenyl citrate - 1mg two times a week for 30 to 35 years olds up to 10mg daily for 80 year olds plus. Ward Dean, M.D., recommends reducing deprenyl doses after several months to lower levels and taking occasional sabbaticals. 

After reading this...tell me you're not interested in trying it. I love the stuff and I told this to my Doctor directly and he just smiled and "yes, I do as well" with a wink. 

This compound can be bought online without a script. Just Google either Seleginine or Deprenyl and you will find a number of outlets. Or, just ask your Doc (if you're Doc is in the know) to get it compounded for you. Not expensive and the upsides are simply fantastic.

Age. Dosage

30-35 1 mg twice a week
35-40 1 mg every other day
40-45 1 mg every day
45-50 2 mg every day
50-55 3 mg every day
55-60 4 mg every day
60-65 5 mg every day
65-70 6 mg every day
70-75 8 mg every day
75-80 9 mg every day
80 plus 10mg every day

Highly recommend my dear friends :Wink/Grin:

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## bass

GD you are da man! i will ask my clinic about it. is it expensive? off to reading the rest!

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## bass

i read the rest and my question above was answered! thanks again GD!

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## kelkel

GD if this is compounded what are the strengths of all three?

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## zaggahamma

is it also available without rx like dhea/preg?

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## steroid.com 1

> GD if this is compounded what are the strengths of all three?


bass - not expensive at all but what it provides in return is fantastic in my book. It's great with a TRT protocol.

kel - 10 mg of DHEA/10 mg of pregnenolone/3 mg of Selegiline all in a gel base administer in the morning. You can feel it all day.

If you don't like feeling horny most of the day, then Selegiline is not for you :Wink:

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## kelkel

Damn. More stuff to rub on. I see cyp in my future!

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## bass

> bass - not expensive at all but what it provides in return is fantastic in my book. It's great with a TRT protocol.
> 
> kel - 10 mg of DHEA/10 mg of pregnenolone/3 mg of Selegiline all in a gel base administer in the morning. You can feel it all day.
> 
> If you don't like feeling horny most of the day, then Selegiline is not for you


GD, unless i am not looking at the right places this stuff is not cheap! can you PM me your recommendation?

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## THINKBIG

Dumb question but how is this administered? and where? Never used any topical gels. Sounds worth looking into Thanks...

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## sirupate

Thanks gdevine. What you posted is what I was hoping for. I think selegiline is available from pharmacies outside of the US. It may be available as a vet med...but not sure. I'll give it a try at some point for the libido boost alone, but the other potential benefits sound great too.

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## steroid.com 1

Administered as a gel on the inside of forearms.

Can be bought online from overseas pharmas or of course from your Doctor.

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## kelkel

I just checked with a local compounding pharmacy. Said just bring a script, they can do it. Just have to bill insurance myself.

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## lvs

> GD, unless i am not looking at the right places this stuff is not cheap! can you PM me your recommendation?


First post, been lurking for a while and learning lots. finding this topic interesting and also finding the same thing bass did. If anyone would be so kind as to PM any information about where to get this, thanks in advance. GD, have you tried the tablets, seems to be more cost effective.

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## steroid.com 1

> First post, been lurking for a while and learning lots. finding this topic interesting and also finding the same thing bass did. If anyone would be so kind as to PM any information about where to get this, thanks in advance. GD, have you tried the tablets, seems to be more cost effective.


You can find Selegiline (Deprenyl) online for doses of 5 mg / day at about a $1.00 / day. Pills are fine but there is a liquid form that has much higher uptake as it enters the bloodstream sublingual and bypasses the liver. 

Trust me when I tell you Selegiline is worth every penny IMO. 

Ivs, you need 50 posts before we can PM you.

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## zaggahamma

> You can find Selegiline (Deprenyl) online for doses of 5 mg / day at about a $1.00 / day. Pills are fine but there is a liquid form that has much higher uptake as it enters the bloodstream sublingual and bypasses the liver. 
> 
> Trust me when I tell you Selegiline is worth every penny IMO. 
> 
> Ivs, you need 50 posts before we can PM you.


so your saying that the selgiline are fine in pills but not the dhea/preg? correct?

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## lvs

GD, thanks, I was hoping I wouldn't need 50 to receive, ugh! Can you click on my banner and send an email or do you need 50 for that too?

The liquid form seemed much higher that is why I was asking about the pills, but hate to not be able to bypass the liver.




> You can find Selegiline (Deprenyl) online for doses of 5 mg / day at about a $1.00 / day. Pills are fine but there is a liquid form that has much higher uptake as it enters the bloodstream sublingual and bypasses the liver. 
> 
> Trust me when I tell you Selegiline is worth every penny IMO. 
> 
> Ivs, you need 50 posts before we can PM you.

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## kelkel

But a cream/gel is the best way to go?

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## steroid.com 1

> so your saying that the selgiline are fine in pills but not the dhea/preg? correct?


Yes.

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## steroid.com 1

> But a cream/gel is the best way to go?


Especially for Preg/DHEA.

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## sirupate

Just fyi...went looking online and found selegiline tablets for relatively "cheap". Something like $.14 per 5mg tab. Typical dose for me would result in $.07 per day. Not sure how bad they will get me on shipping, but at that price, I'll just buy a year supply to spread the shipping over more tabs. Need to look for the liquid version. I'll report back if I can get selegile successfully and after a trial period.

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## zaggahamma

> Just fyi...went looking online and found selegiline tablets for relatively "cheap". Something like $.14 per 5mg tab. Typical dose for me would result in $.07 per day. Not sure how bad they will get me on shipping, but at that price, I'll just buy a year supply to spread the shipping over more tabs. Need to look for the liquid version. I'll report back if I can get selegile successfully and after a trial period.


 that would be great thanks

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## steroid.com 1

Liquid:
http://www.biogenesis.co.za/pi-deprenyl.asp

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## lvs

thanks for posting! Okay so feeling rather stupid now. The site shows 12 ml 300mg bottle. Documentation says 1 mg for every ml drop for precise titration. So would that be 12 doses if taking 1 mg per day or 300 doses?

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## Titleesq

> Liquid:
> http://www.biogenesis.co.za/pi-deprenyl.asp


Purchased from this site Friday afternoon. Website indicates delivery time will be between 1-6 weeks. I believe the shipping originates in South Africa. When I have had a chance to give it a go I will report back with my findings. I also purchased a bottle of Phenylethylamine as this appears to work synergistically with the Deprenyl. Is anyone familiar with Phenylethylamine?

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## bass

> Purchased from this site Friday afternoon. Website indicates delivery time will be between 1-6 weeks. I believe the shipping originates in South Africa. When I have had a chance to give it a go I will report back with my findings. I also purchased a bottle of Phenylethylamine as this appears to work synergistically with the Deprenyl. Is anyone familiar with Phenylethylamine?


no familiar with Phenylethylamine. yes please let us know how Deprenyl works for you!

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## JD250

A 20ml/300mg bottle for 70 bucks, I dont understand the dosing either, it says 1ml drop is equal to 1mg......what the hell is a 1ml DROP, I know what 1ml looks like and I know what a drop is but a 1ML DROP??????? do they mean a 1ml dropper full? Thats over 2 bucks a dose!!!

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## sirupate

Made my order of the tabs last night...foreign pharmacy and got a confirmation email this morning. The liquid may well be better, but the cost difference is pretty great too. My tablet doses will come out to around $.10 per day. I expect the selegiline will take 2-3 weeks to arrive at my house. I'll post up after a few weeks of use.

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## Fred40

> A 20ml/300mg bottle for 70 bucks, I dont understand the dosing either, it says 1ml drop is equal to 1mg......what the hell is a 1ml DROP, I know what 1ml looks like and I know what a drop is but a 1ML DROP??????? do they mean a 1ml dropper full? Thats over 2 bucks a dose!!!



$85 with shipping. There's 300mg in the bottle.....so if your daily dose is 2mg then you have 150 days worth in one bottle. What I don't get is it's a 20ml/300mg bottle........that's 15mg per ml, not 1mg per ml.

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## lvs

glad it is not just me...




> $85 with shipping. There's 300mg in the bottle.....so if your daily dose is 2mg then you have 150 days worth in one bottle. What I don't get is it's a 20ml/300mg bottle........that's 15mg per ml, not 1mg per ml.

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## JD250

I cant make sense of it, it may be a great deal or a deal breaker, not sure.

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## Fred40

From reading it my guess is that 15 drops will = 1ml, therefore 1 drop would = 1mg.

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## JD250

So if you're using 1mg a day that bottle should last all year? Nearly.

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## steroid.com 1

See dosage by age in my original post.

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## bass

i asked my clinic about Deprenyl via email but haven't heard any thing yet!

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## JD250

gdevine......I get that, I should use 1 mg a day what we dont get is the strength/volume/dosage/ mumbo jumbo on the liquid, trying to figure out how many doses are in that bottle for 80-ish dollars.

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## Titleesq

Hey bros. Package arrived this morning. To clear up any confusion regarding dosage and volume of Dep-Pro, it is dosed at 1mg/drop. It is packaged in a small, brown glass container that holds 20ml of liquid. There is a clear pipette with a bulb on the top (used for drawing up the liquid) that twists onto the bottle. Each DROP is equal to 1mg and there are 300 drops per 20ml bottle. I hope that clears up that issue.

Anyway, I just got it today and would imagine that I won't have anything to report for awhile, but when I do, you all will know.

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## lvs

Titleesg, thanks for clearing up the dosing confusion. It really didn't take that long to get did it? I guess you ordered it site wise based on the links posted above?




> Hey bros. Package arrived this morning. To clear up any confusion regarding dosage and volume of Dep-Pro, it is dosed at 1mg/drop. It is packaged in a small, brown glass container that holds 20ml of liquid. There is a clear pipette with a bulb on the top (used for drawing up the liquid) that twists onto the bottle. Each DROP is equal to 1mg and there are 300 drops per 20ml bottle. I hope that clears up that issue.
> 
> Anyway, I just got it today and would imagine that I won't have anything to report for awhile, but when I do, you all will know.

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## Titleesq

> Titleesg, thanks for clearing up the dosing confusion. It really didn't take that long to get did it? I guess you ordered it site wise based on the links posted above?


Order was placed on the afternoon of 9/16 and arrived today 9/28, so just under 2 weeks. Don't want to get hassled for posting a source, but PM is on the way.

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## Titleesq

lvs,

You can't get PMs yet, but you are correct, GD posted a link prior in this thread (I totally forgot). GD is always gtg with his info, and that's the one I went with.

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## lvs

Thanks.




> lvs,
> 
> You can't get PMs yet, but you are correct, GD posted a link prior in this thread (I totally forgot). GD is always gtg with his info, and that's the one I went with.

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## Fred40

I ordered some as well.....should be here any day.

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## steroid.com 1

Never-mind :Wink:

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## Titleesq

> Guys, if you are not taking HCG or not supplementing with oral DHEA or Pregnenolone I would suggest starting out at half dose for a week to ten days to let your body adjust to the impact of these two hormones. Both are neurohormones and can sometimes have sides on initial doses till the body acclimates. Titrating a drug like this is not an uncommon practice even at these low doses.
> 
> Like kel, I had a little anxiety at the beginning but it soon subsided. If you do go full dose and feel you can't tolerate back off to half then work your way back up.
> 
> What these sides are telling you is that you are successfully backfilling your pathways and the body is responding to that...and that my friends is a good thing



Hey G, sorry bro, but you have me a tad confused. I am currently taking HCG as well as DHEA, and I eliminated the Preg due to elevated levels of Progesterone. I know this thread is about Selegiline, but in your post above you refer to TWO hormones. Which two are you referring to? Also, I know you are on the cream, but how long do you estimate the effects (libido specifically) will take to "kick in" with Selegiline?

THANKS!!!

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## steroid.com 1

> Hey G, sorry bro, but you have me a tad confused. I am currently taking HCG as well as DHEA, and I eliminated the Preg due to elevated levels of Progesterone. I know this thread is about Selegiline, but in your post above you refer to TWO hormones. Which two are you referring to? Also, I know you are on the cream, but how long do you estimate the effects (libido specifically) will take to "kick in" with Selegiline?
> 
> THANKS!!!


LOL, thanks man. Both kel and I have DHEA and Preg added to our cream of Seleg. That's what I was pointing out but looking at how I started this thread it was not the original intent of the subject matter.

The point I was making is that some Docs like Shippen will provide DHEA/Preg/Seleg all in one compound. In that case, the addition of DHEA and Preg can cause a little anxiety and much much less with a low dose of Seleg.

Thanks for catching bro...I deleted the post to eliminate any confusion like I caused you.

As for libido kick; I felt mine within 10 days. Some days my libido is through the roof and others pretty good...but, by and far better then before I started it. Selegiline is an MAO Inhibitor and like all MAO Inhibitors it will increase your mood making you feel good...and it does that for me without question. Have reasonable expectations; strong libido is driven by many many physical and psychological factors - think of Seleg as one of those things that can only help your libido outside of being an excellent neuro protector.

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## Fred40

Well, I have two bottles of liquid deprenyl/selegillne sitting here. 

I'm going to start out with 1 drop (1mg) M-F. It says store in a cool dry area.....then it says "for best results, refrigerate after opening" Was not aware of that.....does it need to be refrigerated?

It also says "carefully place the drop(s) in a cold liquid such as water or fruit juice" Then what? Just drink it down?

I thought sublingual meant drop it under your tongue?

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## sirupate

> Well, I have two bottles of liquid deprenyl/selegillne sitting here. 
> 
> I'm going to start out with 1 drop (1mg) M-F. It says store in a cool dry area.....then it says "for best results, refrigerate after opening" Was not aware of that.....does it need to be refrigerated?
> 
> It also says "carefully place the drop(s) in a cold liquid such as water or fruit juice" Then what? Just drink it down?
> 
> I thought sublingual meant drop it under your tongue?


Sublingual does mean under your tongue. Give it a try and see what it tastes like. I am dissolving my selegiline tablets under my tongue....doesn't taste very good, but maybe tolerable. Only on day 5 and I don't want to draw any conclusions until at least day 14. Current dose is 2.5mg./day.

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## steroid.com 1

Remember, MAO Inhibitors take time to build up in your system. It could take 2 to 4 weeks before you start to feel the results. You will feel a better general sense of well being and happiness. There are times where I feel even slightly euphoric and my libido reaches highs I haven't felt in years. 

Everyone is different; give it some time and don't think too much about it. 

The affects are mild but a great addition to a TRT protocol plus the neuroprotective benefits far out-way everything else in my opinion.

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## sirupate

> Remember, MAO Inhibitors take time to build up in your system. It could take 2 to 4 weeks before you start to feel the results. You will feel a better general sense of well being and happiness. There are times where I feel even slightly euphoric and my libido reaches highs I haven't felt in years. 
> 
> Everyone is different; give it some time and don't think too much about it. 
> 
> The affects are mild but a great addition to a TRT protocol plus the neuroprotective benefits far out-way everything else in my opinion.


Thanks for the advice gdevine. I'll give it a full month before attempting to draw conclusions. I know my son needed to be on his SSRI for about a month before he was adjusted to that (and doing better now).

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## bigboy67

thanks for the info gd! great read, I will be requesting this from my new doc when I see him on tuesday

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## Titleesq

Good afternoon guys/gals. Well today marks the end of two weeks of my experiment with Deprenyl (liquid selegiline). Unfortunately I have noticed no discernible positive effects. I have never had any problems with my BP, but I went to the Dr. the other day and my BP was high. It was suggested that the excess dopamine from the Deprenyl was the most likely culprit, and so I am going to discontinue. I'm not posting this to dissuade anyone from giving it a try b/c what works for some doesn't work for others. Good luck to all, and I hope that there are more positive updates concerning Deprenyl.

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## bass

> Good afternoon guys/gals. Well today marks the end of two weeks of my experiment with Deprenyl (liquid selegiline). Unfortunately I have noticed no discernible positive effects. I have never had any problems with my BP, but I went to the Dr. the other day and my BP was high. It was suggested that the excess dopamine from the Deprenyl was the most likely culprit, and so I am going to discontinue. I'm not posting this to dissuade anyone from giving it a try b/c what works for some doesn't work for others. Good luck to all, and I hope that there are more positive updates concerning Deprenyl.


thanks for the feedback!

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## bigboy67

my doc put me on dhea tabs for now. we are gonna wait and see if i even need the preg. He said the studies on Sel were really intriguing, and he said bottom line he will do what I want within ethical limits so if I want it he will prescribe it. I usually ave slightly high BP though, I wonder if this would send me up even higher

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## steroid.com 1

> Good afternoon guys/gals. Well today marks the end of two weeks of my experiment with Deprenyl (liquid selegiline). Unfortunately I have noticed no discernible positive effects. I have never had any problems with my BP, but I went to the Dr. the other day and my BP was high. It was suggested that the excess dopamine from the Deprenyl was the most likely culprit, and so I am going to discontinue. I'm not posting this to dissuade anyone from giving it a try b/c what works for some doesn't work for others. Good luck to all, and I hope that there are more positive updates concerning Deprenyl.


2 weeks - Not enough time...took me almost a month maybe more.

What were your expectations? 

High BP? Never heard of that. Was it just a "guess" you Doc made or can you refer to specific efficacy studies? At these very low levels the dopamine increase is not significant but enough to alter mood and elevate sex drive. Most and more important from my perspective (and you don't feel this) are the neuroprotective attributes of the compound. I don't want Alzheimer's...or Parkinson's.

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## lvs

I just received the dep-pro 3-days ago. I took 2mg when I first got it in the evening. First night caused insomnia something fierce, but a light euphoria, and libido enhancement about 6-hours post. After that a bit anxious the next day, but since have been taking 3mg per day since, not noticing a big difference except a very slight libido uptake, but anxiousness has subsided for the most part. I have never been on this MOA inhibitor or SSRI for that matter, but like gdevine said going to give this a bit of time to see if the dopamine levels increase over time and as a result have positive effect. There is some good evidence out there that in low doses the neuroprotective effects of this drug with little to no risk of other side-effects, is worth the trial. for me I am hoping for an enhanced libido in addition.

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## Titleesq

> 2 weeks - Not enough time...took me almost a month maybe more.
> 
> What were your expectations? 
> 
> High BP? Never heard of that. Was it just a "guess" you Doc made or can you refer to specific efficacy studies? At these very low levels the dopamine increase is not significant but enough to alter mood and elevate sex drive. Most and more important from my perspective (and you don't feel this) are the neuroprotective attributes of the compound. I don't want Alzheimer's...or Parkinson's.



I guess I was mistaken as to length of time it takes to "kick in". I thought that you said two weeks was the sweet spot, and I apologize to the board.

The Dr. that I saw was not my normal Dr., but an Endo at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. First off I have to clarify that I was completely and totally unimpressed with this Dr. She was terrible and I felt like I was in the Stone Age or something. I had Googled her months ago, saw she was extremely highly published, was a keynote speaker at various hormone seminars, and so I scheduled an appt. It took me over 3 months to get one. Anyway, I have never had high BP before and she said that the dopamine from the Selegiline was probably the cause. I don't have anything to back that up, I just trusted that hopefully she at least knew that. I went on drugs.com, and in regards to side effects for Selegiline, it said this:

Cardiovascular

Cardiovascular side effects have included *hypertension*, vasodilation, *tachycardia*, migraine, syncope, atrial fibrillation, peripheral vascular disorder, and myocardial infarct.

FYI, I had high BP, and my pulse was extremely high as well. I was taking 3-5 mg a day, and I'm considering dropping it to 1mg daily and see if the symptoms go away.

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## Titleesq

I just attempted to post to this thread, and I received this message:

Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting. 

What's that all about?

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## steroid.com 1

> I just received the dep-pro 3-days ago. I took 2mg when I first got it in the evening. First night caused insomnia something fierce, but a light euphoria, and libido enhancement about 6-hours post. After that a bit anxious the next day, but since have been taking 3mg per day since, not noticing a big difference except a very slight libido uptake, but anxiousness has subsided for the most part. I have never been on this MOA inhibitor or SSRI for that matter, but like gdevine said going to give this a bit of time to see if the dopamine levels increase over time and as a result have positive effect. There is some good evidence out there that in low doses the neuroprotective effects of this drug with little to no risk of other side-effects, is worth the trial. for me I am hoping for an enhanced libido in addition.


Pretty much how I felt when I first started. This drug should be taken in the morning hours...I may have forgotten to mention that. Some may do better at titration; small doses at start and work up. 

Kel and I have this drug compounded with Pregnenolone and DHEA...boy talk about an initial kick! Both of these horomones act on the neurological pathways as well. 

There are days where my libido is off the charts and others just normal. Contribute to the drug...possible. But my libido has gotten much better on it and co-administered with my TRT protocol. In combination like this do I think it's optimizing the effects. 

gd

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## lvs

Wish I could get this cocktail compounded as well, but will need a script to get that done. I am currently using Pregnenolone cream/lotion and then taking 7-keto-dhea 15mg in pill form. What form of selegiline are the compounding from?




> Pretty much how I felt when I first started. This drug should be taken in the morning hours...I may have forgotten to mention that. Some may do better at titration; small doses at start and work up. 
> 
> Kel and I have this drug compounded with Pregnenolone and DHEA...boy talk about an initial kick! Both of these horomones act on the neurological pathways as well. 
> 
> Gitty-up!

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## steroid.com 1

> Wish I could get this cocktail compounded as well, but will need a script to get that done. I am currently using Pregnenolone cream/lotion and then taking 7-keto-dhea 15mg in pill form. What form of selegiline are the compounding from?


Everything is compounded in a cream. 

My daily dosage is:

3 mg Selegiline
50 mg Preg
50 mg DHEA

The two hormones are great for back-filling the pathways which is generally needed for men on TRT protocol...even if they use hCG .

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## lvs

I will see if my endo will prescribe this. Do you know if you already have the pills or the citrate if you could just take it to compounding pharmacy since the preg and DHEA don't require scripts?




> Everything is compounded in a cream. 
> 
> My daily dosage is:
> 
> 3 mg Selegiline
> 50 mg Preg
> 50 mg DHEA
> 
> The two hormones are great for back-filling the pathways which is generally needed for men on TRT protocol...even if they use hCG.

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## marcus300

> I just attempted to post to this thread, and I received this message:
> 
> Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting. 
> 
> What's that all about?


 Approved  :Smilie:  Its the spam filter being over sensitive

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## Titleesq

Marcus, where do I go to nominate you for Forum Moderator of the Decade???????

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## marcus300

> Marcus, where do I go to nominate you for Forum Moderator of the Decade???????


PM admin and tell him to give me a wage increase  :Smilie:

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## steroid.com 1

> I will see if my endo will prescribe this. Do you know if you already have the pills or the citrate if you could just take it to compounding pharmacy since the preg and DHEA don't require scripts?


Taking Preg/DHEA orally has very little effect after passing the destructive gastric juices in the gut then first pass through the liver. Lucky if 5% of the dosage amount makes it into the blood stream. Oral is better. Creams even better. Both bypass the gut and liver.

You can purchase 15 mg creams for both Preg and DHEA online. Low dosage but easily overcome by increasing the amounts applied.

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## kelkel

Bump as it's relative to a recent thread...

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## sirupate

As an update to my post where I described letting the selegiline tablet disolve under my tongue...don't do that. I tried that for about a month and the underside of my tongue became quite irritated...crap...thought I was getting cancer of the mouth. Mouth healed after about a week.

I am taking the selegiline 3mg. tablet once a day in the morning. I can't say as how I feel any effect. Maybe this is one that is better compunded in a cream to be absorbed through the skin as gdevine is doing.

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## steroid.com 1

Creams work.

If the seleg pill you are taking is micronized than you should get a good uptake as well.

There are oral/sublingual modes available as well and can be purchased online.

I love Selegiline!

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## Times Roman

http://www.futurescience.com/deprenyl.html

I was going to start a thread, then saw GD had this nicely covered. The compounded creams some of you were taking, I'd be interested in finding out more...?

DEPRENYL

Deprenyl was developed by Dr. Joseph Knoll of Semmelweis University in Budapest, Hungary during the early 1960's for possible use as an anti-depressant. The medicine initially showed limited usefulness as a treatment for depression; but more than a decade after its initial development, deprenyl was found to be an effective treatment for Parkinson's Disease. (See the note at the end of this chapter, however, about the use of a deprenyl skin patch shown to be effective for depression.) 

In April, 1989, the FDA approved deprenyl for use against Parkinson's Disease, a disease that usually strikes people between the ages of 50 and 70. Parkinson's Disease is an incurable disorder that begins with a characteristic tremor and causes progressive disability, ultimately resulting in death. 

Deprenyl acts on an important chemical in the brain called dopamine. Dopamine is manufactured in the brain from two amino acids that occur naturally in foods: phenylalanine and tyrosine. 

To function properly, the human body requires a multitude of chemicals in well-regulated quantities. For most of these necessary chemicals, the human body has one biological process to manufacture the chemical and another process to break it down. Dopamine is broken down in the brain by a chemical called MAO-B. It is important for good health that the manufacture of dopamine from amino acids and the destruction of dopamine by MAO-B is kept in balance. If the destruction of dopamine by MAO-B occurs at a faster rate than its production from the amino acids, the brain cells that use dopamine will die. The loss of dopamine and the resulting brain damage can cause tremors, rigid muscles, loss of coordination, weakness and death. 

Beginning at about age 45, the destruction of dopamine in the brain by MAO-B begins increasing. The amount of dopamine in the typical about human brain begins decreasing by 13 percent every decade. 

In about 0.5 percent of the population, the decrease in dopamine takes place much more rapidly than the usual 13 percent every ten years. When the dopamine content drops to about 30 percent of normal, these individuals develop the tremors and rigid muscles that are typical of Parkinson's Disease. Parkinson's patients typically experience a decrease in dopamine levels of 30 percent to 90 percent every ten years. Death usually occurs in Parkinson's patients about the time their brain dopamine content falls to 10 percent of normal. 

In the past, the most popular treatment for Parkinson's Disease has been L-Dopa. L-Dopa is an amino acid that is not present in the ordinary human diet. The brain can make dopamine much more easily from L-Dopa than from the tyrosine and phenylalanine usually obtained from the human diet. 

Deprenyl attacks the other end of the dopamine-preservation process by inhibiting the action of the MAO-B. 

During the 1980's, deprenyl, either alone or in combination with L-Dopa, was the most effective known drug treatment for Parkinson's Disease. Researchers complained that few physicians are using deprenyl for Parkinson's Disease. Several months after its approval by the FDA, many physicians still hadn't even heard of the medicine, which is marketed by Somerset Pharmaceuticals under the brand name Eldepryl. 

The Sept. 5, 1990 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) contained an article titled "Many Researchers, Few Clinicians, Using Drug That May Slow, Even Prevent, Parkinson's." The article re-emphasized the dramatic results of deprenyl as shown in several large-scale human studies. In the JAMA article, Dr. Christopher Goetz, a neurologist, said he is "surprised by how few" physicians are prescribing deprenyl. "They don't understand the implications" of the studies, Goetz said. 

Some of the enthusiasm for using deprenyl in Parkinson's Disease has been dampened after it was discovered that the dosage levels used were often too large, and that determining and maintaining the proper dosage in a clinical setting was more difficult that was first thought. 

Dr. Knoll claims that deprenyl is also effective in preventing Parkinson's Disease. Most other scientists working with deprenyl take this claim seriously but are much more cautious about recommending deprenyl in healthy persons. 

A review article in Clinical Neuropharmacology by Dr. Patricia Sonsalla and Dr. Lawrence Golbe typifies the most prevalent thinking on this subject. Sonsalla and Golbe discuss reasons for believing that deprenyl may be a useful preventive therapy for Parkinson's Disease (PD), warning that in autopsies of elderly persons who had no Parkinson's symptoms during life, eight to 10 percent show pathological indications of Parkinson's Disease. 

Sonsalla and Golbe wrote that "clinically evident PD may then be merely the top of a pathologic iceberg comprising 10 percent of the population over 60 in Western countries. If deprenyl is shown to even modestly delay or attenuate the development of clinical PD, or is widely suspected of doing so, large numbers of people may seek the drug. The still distant prospect of a valid pre-symptomatic test may lend a more rational basis to this practice. In any case, frightened patients and their physicians must understand that there are no data on the safety of deprenyl over a span of several decades." 

According to Dr. Knoll, deprenyl has "proved to be a safe drug in man. Neither hypertensive reactions nor the need for special dietary care were ever encountered during long-term (2-8 years) daily administration of the drug." Knoll said that the lethal dose of the drug is more than 1000 times its effective daily dose. Knoll called this safety margin "remarkable." 

Dr. Knoll also said that deprenyl is an effective treatment for aging. Knoll wrote a lengthy report on his study of the age-retarding effects of deprenyl which was published in a European medical journal in 1989. 

In that study, Dr. Knoll divided 132 male rats of the same age into two groups. One group of 66 rats received an injection of salt solution three times a week. The other group of 66 rats each received a similar injection containing deprenyl three times a week. The treatments began when the rats were 104 weeks-old. The rats that did not receive deprenyl died at an average age of 147 weeks. After 164 weeks, all of the untreated (salt-water injected) rats had died; but all of the deprenyl-treated rats were still alive and healthy. It was not until seven weeks later that the first deprenyl-treated rat died. The last deprenyl-treated rat lived to 226 weeks. 

The average life span of the deprenyl-treated rats was 192 weeks. The researchers considered this to be particularly remarkable since the maximum life span of that strain of laboratory rats is considered to be 182 weeks. 

According to Dr. Knoll, similar life-extending results could be expected in humans. The biological processes deprenyl acts upon to cause its life span extending effects in rats are well-known; and there is general agreement among scientists that deprenyl acts on the same processes in humans. 

Dr. Knoll points to the normal decrease in dopamine in the aging brain as an indication of how deprenyl works to increase life span. He said that it is no coincidence that even the healthiest humans die at about the time the dopamine content of their brain drops below the critical 30 percent level. According to our present knowledge, the neurons (brain cells) that use dopamine are the most rapidly aging neurons in the human brain.

AGE 
45 

55

65

75

85

95

105

115

125

DOPAMINE CONTENT

100 percent

87 percent

74 percent

61 percent

48 percent

35 percent

22 percent

11 percent

0 


Dr. Knoll's advocacy of deprenyl use to extend the human lifespan is controversial. Claims of enhanced longevity in humans without conclusive proof have often caused drug companies to have problems with government regulatory agencies. At one symposium on deprenyl, the organizer of the event, Dr. John Mann, was careful to emphasize that Dr. Knoll's statements about the anti-aging effects of deprenyl have "nothing to do with the claims of any pharmaceutical company." 

If the animal experiments translate directly into the same slowing of the aging process in humans, this would result in a 24 percent increase in the maximum life span of humans along with a stretching of the healthy middle years of human life by 25 to 30 years. Since the natural life span of humans is much longer than laboratory animals, whether deprenyl actually has this effect in humans won't be known for at least another three decades. 

In a report in the August 1992 Journal of the American Geriatric Society, Dr. Knoll concluded his report on deprenyl by saying, "We propose that the healthy population be maintained on 10-15 mg deprenyl weekly starting at age 45 to combat the age-related decline of the nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons. Prophylactic deprenyl medication seems to offer a reasonable prospect of improving the quality of life in the later decades, delaying the time of natural death and decreasing the susceptibility of age-related neurological diseases." 

The editor of the Journal of the American Geriatric Society appended a note to Dr. Knoll's report stating that "The proposal in this final paragraph is the author's opinion and does not reflect mainstream opinion at the present time." Nevertheless, it is remarkable, and probably unprecedented, for a report in a serious medical journal to propose that all healthy persons above a certain age take a prescription drug on a regular basis. 

Since deprenyl is a prescription medicine, those using it for personal life extension experiments are either scientists or physicians or are persons whom physicians trust to have the knowledge and responsibility to be able to use wisely a medicine such as deprenyl on a long-term basis. 

One of the greatest problems that the healthy individuals using deprenyl face is not a medical problem, but a social one. Deprenyl is broken down in the body to amphetamine and methamphetamine. London researcher G. P. Reynolds and his associates reported in a British medical journal that even in the larger doses used in Parkinson's Disease, deprenyl is "unlikely to produce any marked degree of central amphetamine-like action." 

The amphetamine and the methamphetamine breakdown products of deprenyl can show up in urine, though. Some scientists have warned that this may cause problems for those individuals who must undergo employer required drug testing. 

Methamphetamine is a common illegal "street drug" with the potential for producing addiction. The scientists who work with deprenyl are not concerned that any harm will be caused by the tiny amounts of amphetamine and methamphetamine produced by deprenyl, but concern has been expressed about the dangers to a person's job and reputation from positive results on drug tests. 

The Marketing of Deprenyl 

Deprenyl Research Ltd., the company that markets deprenyl in Canada, is researching the use of deprenyl in controlling the symptoms of Alzheimer's disease and in reducing fatigue in multiple sclerosis. The company hopes eventually to secure approval from government regulatory agencies to market deprenyl for these uses. (In mid-1994, Deprenyl Research changed its name to Draxis Health, Inc, reflecting its intention to become involved in other products besides deprenyl.) 

A number of entrepreneurs have been involved in efforts to gain approval to sell deprenyl for extending the lives of dogs, cats and other pets. The first such effort was by Dr. Morton Shulman of Toronto. In 1987, Dr. Shulman was 62 years-old and so severely afflicted with Parkinson's Disease that he was hardly able to move without help. He obtained some deprenyl from Europe after hearing about the drug from a neurologist. 

In Longevity magazine, Dr. Shulman is quoted as saying that "within 24 hours of taking the drug, I stopped shaking and shuffling, returned to normal, and went back to work." 

According to a report in the Oct. 3, 1988 issue of Business Week, after deprenyl halted the course of his disease, Dr. Shulman began stirring up a considerable amount of controversy with his efforts market the drug as a life span extender for pets. 

Shulman made efforts to induce pet food companies to secure official approval for deprenyl for animal lifespan extension from U.S. and Canadian regulators. At that time, deprenyl had yet to be approved by the U.S. FDA for any use; and many people feared that Shulman's claims about life span extension in animals would cause the FDA to slow the approval process in the U.S. This problem was complicated by the fact that Shulman had a financial interest in the company that was applying for FDA approval for human use in Parkinson's Disease. 

According to a report in the Jan. 7, 1991 issue of Barron's, a weekly financial newspaper, a new company, Deprenyl Animal Health, Inc. was formed for the purpose of marketing deprenyl for veterinary use. Barron's quoted company officials as saying that they believe that deprenyl "when chronically administered in low doses, may extend the healthy period of small companion animal's lives by retarding the 'normal' decline of certain physiological functions, particularly in dogs and cats, during the senescent period of such animals lives." 

Deprenyl Animal Health, Inc. later signed agreements with Chinoin of Hungary, the world's primary producer of deprenyl, for exclusive rights to market deprenyl for "veterinary prescription applications" in the U.S. and Canada. In 1992, they established headquarters in Overland Park, Kansas, and began implementing plans to sell a veterinary form of deprenyl under the brand name Anipryl. 

By 1999, television ads for Anipryl, the veterinary form of deprenyl, were commonplace. 

The basic U.S. and Canadian patents on deprenyl that were held by Chinoin of Hungary have expired. However, Chinoin holds patents in both countries on the process used for making deprenyl. Those patents did not expire until Dec. 20, 2003. 

Competing companies were searching for alternative processes for manufacturing the drug that are not covered by the Chinoin patents. One company, Discovery Experimental and Development, Inc., apparently succeeded in using a completely different process to make a liquid form of deprenyl. The company claimed that it was more bioavailable than the Chinoin product. At one time, it was submitted for FDA approval. Subsequently, competitors conspired with rogue agents of the FDA to put Discovery out of business. 




Dangers of Deprenyl 

In spite of the impressive safety record of deprenyl, any substance that affects a system as critical as the brain's dopaminergic system is destined to have adverse effects under some circumstances. The first adverse effects of low-dose deprenyl were discovered by long-time practitioners of life extension who had been using l-dopa for life extension purposes. L-dopa had been shown to increase life expectancy in animals by helping to replace the dopamine normally lost by aging. (L-dopa is also a potent growth hormone releaser.) The addition of low-dose deprenyl to low-dose l-dopa usually results in a rather alarming adverse reaction, often after a delay of a week or two after the combination is begun. The symptoms are usually those of a dopamine overload, including involuntary muscle movements, nausea, headache, or just plain feeling lousy. 

About five years after life extensionists discovered the results of the deprenyl/l-dopa interaction, reports in the scientific literature began to appear showing the long-term adverse effects of the deprenyl/l-dopa combination on Parkinson's patients. A study in the Dec. 16, 1995 British Medical Journal reported the worst long-term effects, with a sharp increase in deaths occurring in the period between 29 months and 41 months after beginning the deprenyl/l-dopa combination, with an overall death rate nearly 60 percent above that of patients using l-dopa alone. 

More recent reports on the DATATOP study have shown that the early benefits of deprenyl vanished when it became necessary to add l-dopa to the patient's therapy. 

Deprenyl is known to multiply some of the effects of l-dopa. It is likely that the deprenyl/l-dopa combination produces what is effectively an l-dopa overdose. Until more is known about the deprenyl/l-dopa combination, healthy people (and probably even those with mild Parkinson's disease) should avoid the deprenyl/l-dopa combination. 

There are also possible long-term adverse effects of low-dose deprenyl without l-dopa. Deprenyl greatly increases the activity of superoxide dismutase (SOD), one of the body's natural antioxidants. On the surface, this appears to be a good thing. For years, people have been trying to find ways to increase natural antioxidant activity, especially SOD. In the process of destroying some free radicals, though, SOD, like most antioxidants, produces other free radicals. This is why complementary antioxidant systems must be kept in balance. 

This is true whether the antioxidants are vitamin supplements or the natural antioxidant systems of the body. (See Appendix A: Notes on Antioxidants) 

This is one reason why it is wise to avoid whatever is the latest antioxidant fad. Just because a substance is an antioxidant doesn't mean it is good for you. 

One of several causes of impaired mental development in Down's syndrome is the excess production of SOD. The excess SOD destroys some types of free radicals but, in the process, SOD produces more of the dangerous hydroxyl radical than the other antioxidant systems can handle. There is a possibility that deprenyl, even at low doses, could produce some of the same kind of damage. 

Obviously, if we could re-balance the antioxidant systems, the excess SOD activity could be turned from a problem to an advantage. It will be years before we know the effect of long-term low-dose deprenyl in humans. In the meantime, here are some things for anyone contemplating low-dose deprenyl for life extension to consider: 

The three major natural antioxidant systems in the body are SOD, catalase, and glutathione peroxidase. Deprenyl raises SOD activity markedly, catalase activity slightly, and glutathione peroxidase activity none at all. The nutritional supplement N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC) raises glutathione peroxidase levels and should help to re-balance the body's natural antioxidant system in those using deprenyl. 

It is probably unwise for anyone to use deprenyl without rather large doses of supplementary antioxidant vitamins, especially vitamins C and E. 

The increased SOD activity induced by deprenyl is greater in females than males. The lifespan studies with deprenyl that produced positive results in animals were always done with male animals. Female animals did not have positive results in lifespan studies. The ideal dose of deprenyl in women appears to be less than the ideal dose for men. The use of supplementary antioxidants in women taking deprenyl is correspondingly more important than for men taking deprenyl. 



Dosage for Life Extension. 




The optimum dose of deprenyl for life extension purposes is unknown. Extrapolation from animal experiments would indicate that it is about 5 mg. every other day. Some scientists, though, have suggested that people in their forties begin with 5 mg. per week and gradually increase to about 5 mg. per day by the time they reach their seventies. Another complicating factor is that the early deprenyl experiments were done only with male animals. A recent study using male and female rats indicated that the optimal dose for females is much smaller than the optimal dose for males. Until more research is done, it may be prudent for healthy women under 70 to limit their dosage to 5 mg. per week. 

The half-life of deprenyl in the body is only a few hours; but once it enters the brain, its effects are very long-lasting. The half-life of MAO-B inhibition in humans has been measured to be about 40 days, therefore, deprenyl probably need not be taken daily by persons who do not have a neurological disease. 

The successful life extension experiments with deprenyl have been done in rodents, where the half-life of MAO-B inhibition due to deprenyl is 8 to 11 days, as opposed to 40 days in humans. This indicates that life extension doses extrapolated from rat studies may be 4 to 5 times too high for humans. 

(In the study where the half-life of MAO-B inhibition was measured in humans, it was about 38 days in the normal subjects and 43 days for patients with early Parkinson's disease. The normal subjects were four non-smoking males ages 62 to 69. The Parkinson's patients were 2 males and 2 females ages 62-70.) 




[A personal note: After all this, sometimes confusing, information about deprenyl, you are probably wondering how much, if any, deprenyl I take. In 1989, I began taking 15 mg. a week. I soon reduced the dosage to 5 to 10 mg. of deprenyl weekly. In 1996, I reduced my dose to 5 mg. a week and started using liquid deprenyl citrate. Since the most well-tested brand of liquid deprenyl citrate became unavailable, I began using 5 mg. per week in the tablet form. I also take 1000 mg. of NAC per day and at least 400 I.U. of vitamin E and 1000 mg. of vitamin C per day. I also take a lot of lipoic acid.] 

(I should also note that some of the information in this chapter may be somewhat out-of-date since the last thorough update to this particular chapter was made in 1999. In the subsequent ten years, I only made some minor changes. I have begun a more thorough update in 2009, which is reflected in this version of the current article, and hope to complete the update soon.) 

In the United States, the FDA has approved a deprenyl skin patch that is sold under the brand name Emsam for depression. It is not known whether this might be a better form of deprenyl for preventive and life extension purposes. Since the skin patch releases deprenyl at a steady rate over a 24 hour period, there is some reason to believe that using the 6 mg. Emsam patch every other day might be a good approach to the preventive medicine uses of deprenyl. The big downside, for now, to the use of Emsam is its extremely high price tag. As of this writing, the price of Emsam is more than 500 dollars for a box of 30 of the 6 mg. patches. This is more than 30 times the price of deprenyl tablets.)

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## lovbyts

Interesting read.
Who is still using it besides gdevine? Are you using cream or tabs?

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## kelkel

My doc recommends it. I use a compounded cream.

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## Times Roman

> Interesting read.
> Who is still using it besides gdevine? Are you using cream or tabs?


I'm looking to go back on tabs again. been a few years since the last time, just need to make an acquisition decision.

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## JD250

Bump.... Finally ordered the pill form, I'm a little undecided about dosing as I've seen a couple different recommendations now, I'm thinking of 1mg per day for a week then up it to 2mg per day and then maybe up to 3mg......does that seem right GD?

Also , does anyone who recently started have any updates on using it so far?

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## steroid.com 1

That's a very nice titrating schedule JD.

Keep us posted on how you feel.

I love the stuff for so many reasons.

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## JD250

I'll start in the morning and hopefully report back from time to time. One thing I've learned about TRT in general is that everything takes quite a bit of time to be fair in judging the results, That's a tough situation for someone as impatient as I am.  :Smilie:  I'll be back.

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## steroid.com 1

^^^^Truth.

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## JD250

Update: It's been nearly 2 months since I started taking selegiline in pill form, I have 5mg pills so I quartered them and started off with 1.25 mgs every day for the first couple weeks then titrated up to 2.5 mgs every morning, that's where I'm at now and I may stay at that dose.

One of the first things I noticed was dreams, EXTREMELY vivid and many times crazy, a couple times I have been awakened by them, I also noticed that I dream normal dreams alot and can remember them the next day, after a while the wild dreams subsided and things are more normal although I dream all the time whereas before I don't remember dreaming at all.

After a month I started to realize that my mind is much clearer, this is hard to describe and I'm not sure what to compare it to but I'm very focused and not as easily distracted by all the little things throughout the day, it's like I'm able to juggle multiple jobsites in one day without missing a single detail or get stressed out. 

I feel like I don't wear out as easily, my mental state is calm and collected, I feel like I'm energized, not like I drank a red bull but quite the opposite, just clear minded and ready to go accomplish something.

The thing is that this stuff has happened slowly and steadily so it's sort of like I had to stop and think back before I realized how my feeling of well being (or lack thereof) throughout my work day has changed.

Interesting to say the least, I can honestly say that I feel way better overall. That said, I will also say that I haven't noticed any sort of physical improvement that I could pinpoint although with the mental change it does have an effect on some aspects of the physical just saying that I'm not claiming anything but a mental change.

So far so good, I will continue to update in the next couple months.

GD, what do you think of this dosing? I don't want to get carried away but I don't believe this product is micronized, should I up it to 5mgs a day?

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## steroid.com 1

2.5 mg daily is fine. 

You could go to 5 mg as well if you wanted.

Many of the things you are feeling are consistent with what has been reported.

There are other things going on in the brain at the molecular level that you don't feel that are very good for you and the very good potential of staving off Alzheimer disease and age related dementia as well!

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## JD250

If you've ever been around someone with dementia or Alzheimer it will make you realize that ANYTHING that may help reduce those risks should be considered in your life extension protocol, those are actually the things that caught my eye about this compound. Thx GD, I'll stay at this dose for a while and see how it goes.

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## steroid.com 1

JD - This one is the real deal; in fact, I stopped using the DHEA/Preg/Selelgiline cream as I wasn't absorbing well so went with micronized pills for DHEA and Preg and now taking 2.5 of the Selegiline in pill from from my overseas pharmacy...it's cheap and well worth it.

Read TR's post or Google for yourself.

Everyone over 40 should be on a daily low dose Selegiline along with a low dose 5 mg of Tadalafil IMO.

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## johnhenry

GD, very interesting info. I googled 'pregnenolone' & came across info that Ray Sahelian - an authority in the supplementation area - has written. I don't think I can post links, due to the filter. He has a conservative approach - see raysaheliandotcom/pregnenolone.html - what do you think?

Anyway, my question is with the 10/10/3 gel, or even T gels, what absorption % should be generally assumed - 10%? JH.

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## BuzzardMarinePumper

I am subscribing so I can read later

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