# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  civilian deaths

## kis55

Damn, I thought this article was very illuminating.

The predictable condemners


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ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 22, 2006 

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The Hizbullah and Hamas provocations against Israel once again demonstrate how terrorists exploit human rights and the media in their attacks on democracies. 

By hiding behind their own civilians the Islamic radicals issue a challenge to democracies: Either violate your own morality by coming after us and inevitably killing some innocent civilians, or maintain your morality and leave us with a free hand to target your innocent civilians. 

This challenge presents democracies such as Israel with a lose-lose option, and the terrorists with a win-win option. 

There is one variable that could change this dynamic and present democracies with a viable option that could make terrorism less attractive as a tactic: The international community, the anti-Israel segment of the media and the so called "human rights" organizations could stop falling for this terrorist gambit and acknowledge that they are being used to promote the terrorist agenda. 

Whenever a democracy is presented with the lose-lose option and chooses to defend its citizens by going after the terrorists who are hiding among civilians, this trio of predictable condemners can be counted on by the terrorists to accuse the democracy of "overreaction," "disproportionality" and "violations of human rights." 

In doing so they play right into the hands of the terrorists, causing more terrorism and more civilian casualties on both sides.
If instead this trio could, for once, be counted on to blame the terrorists for the civilian deaths on both sides, this tactic would no longer be a win-win situation for the terrorists. 

IT SHOULD BE obvious by now that Hizbullah and Hamas actually want the Israeli military to kill as many Lebanese and Palestinian civilians as possible. That is why they store their rockets underneath the beds of civilians; why they launch their missiles from crowded civilian neighborhoods and hide among civilians. They are seeking to induce Israel to defend its civilians by going after them among their civilian "shields." They know that every civilian they induce Israel to kill hurts Israel in the media and the international and human rights communities. 

They regard these human shields as shahids - martyrs - even if they did not volunteer for this lethal job. Under the law, criminals who use human shields are responsible for the deaths of the shields, even if the bullet that kills them came from the gun of a policeman. 

Israel has every self-interest in minimizing civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists have every self-interest in maximizing them - on both sides. Israel should not be condemned for doing what every democracy would and should do: taking every reasonable military step to stop the terrorists from killing their innocent civilians. 

NOW THAT some of those who are launching rockets at Israeli cities have announced they have new surprises in store for Israel that may include chemical and biological weapons, the stakes have gotten even higher. 

What would Israeli critics regard as "proportioned" to a chemical or biological attack? What would they say if Israel tried to preempt such an attack and, in the process, killed some civilians? Must a democracy absorb a first strike from a weapon of mass destruction before it fights back? Would any other democracy be expected to do that? 

The world must come to recognize the cynical way in which terrorists exploit civilian casualties. They launch anti-personnel rockets designed to maximize enemy civilian casualties, then they cry "human rights" when their own civilians - behind whom they are deliberately hiding - are killed by the democracies in the process of trying to prevent further acts of terrorism. 

The very idea that terrorists who use women and children as suicide bombers against other women and children shed crocodile tears over the deaths of civilians they deliberately put in harm's way gives new meaning to the word "hypocrisy." We all know that hypocrisy is a tactic of the terrorists, but it is shocking that others fall for it and become complicit with the terrorists. 

Let the blame fall where it belongs: on the terrorists who deliberately seek to kill enemy civilians and give their democratic enemies little choice but to kill some civilians behind whom the terrorists are hiding. 

Those who condemn Israel for killing civilians - who are used as human shields and swords for the terrorists - actually cause more civilian deaths and make it harder for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank. 

HOW THE WORLD reacts to Israel's current military efforts to protect its citizens will have a considerable impact on future Israeli steps toward peace. Prior to the recent kidnappings and rocket attacks the Israeli government had announced its intention to engage in further withdrawals from large portions of the West Bank. 

But how can Israel be expected to move forward with any plan for withdrawal if all it can expect in return is more terrorism - what the terrorists regard as "land for rocket launchings" - and more condemnation when it seeks to protect its civilians? 

The writer is a Professor of Law at Harvard and the author of Preemption: A Knife that Cuts Both Ways.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...icle%2FPrinter

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## zodiac666

very good article, agree 100%

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## Teabagger

A common sense article, cuts pretty quickly to the tactic that is successfully used by terrorists. Of course it doesn't matter what action Israel takes, except surrender, it is condemmed about the world. If individual terrorists are targeted and killed, without civilian casualities, it is condemmed as "assasination". If Israel builds a wall on its border for security, it is condemmed as "racist" and aggressive against the Pals. So in a nutshell, whatever Israel does in defense of itself will be condemmed by most of the world as aggressive, provacative, de-stabilizing, or inhumane. So in turn, Israel learned many years ago it could not rely on any world body..ie: UN, to broker a peace deal. They learned to turn a deaf ear to the world bodies and place their trust for their safety, security, and very existence in their own ability and strategy.

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## mcpeepants

'Civilian Casualty'? It Depends
Those who support terrorists are not entirely innocent.
By Alan Dershowitz, ALAN DERSHOWITZ is a professor of law at Harvard. He is the author, most recently, of "Preemption: A Knife that Cuts Both Ways."
July 22, 2006 


THE NEWS IS filled these days with reports of civilian casualties, comparative civilian body counts and criticism of Israel, along with Hezbollah, for causing the deaths, injuries and "collective punishment" of civilians. But just who is a "civilian" in the age of terrorism, when militants don't wear uniforms, don't belong to regular armies and easily blend into civilian populations?

We need a new vocabulary to reflect the realities of modern warfare. A new phrase should be introduced into the reporting and analysis of current events in the Middle East: "the continuum of civilianality." Though cumbersome, this concept aptly captures the reality and nuance of warfare today and provides a more fair way to describe those who are killed, wounded and punished.

ADVERTISEMENTThere is a vast difference — both moral and legal — between a 2-year-old who is killed by an enemy rocket and a 30-year-old civilian who has allowed his house to be used to store Katyusha rockets. Both are technically civilians, but the former is far more innocent than the latter. There is also a difference between a civilian who merely favors or even votes for a terrorist group and one who provides financial or other material support for terrorism.

Finally, there is a difference between civilians who are held hostage against their will by terrorists who use them as involuntary human shields, and civilians who voluntarily place themselves in harm's way in order to protect terrorists from enemy fire.

These differences and others are conflated within the increasingly meaningless word "civilian" — a word that carried great significance when uniformed armies fought other uniformed armies on battlefields far from civilian population centers. Today this same word equates the truly innocent with guilty accessories to terrorism.

The domestic law of crime, in virtually every nation, reflects this continuum of culpability. For example, in the infamous Fall River rape case (fictionalized in the film "The Accused"), there were several categories of morally and legally complicit individuals: those who actually raped the woman; those who held her down; those who blocked her escape route; those who cheered and encouraged the rapists; and those who could have called the police but did not.

No rational person would suggest that any of these people were entirely free of moral guilt, although reasonable people might disagree about the legal guilt of those in the last two categories. Their accountability for rape is surely a matter of degree, as is the accountability for terrorism of those who work with the terrorists.

It will, of course, be difficult for international law — and for the media — to draw the lines of subtle distinction routinely drawn by domestic criminal law. This is because domestic law operates on a retail basis — one person and one case at a time. International law and media reporting about terrorism tend to operate on more of a wholesale basis — with body counts, civilian neighborhoods and claims of collective punishment.

But the recognition that "civilianality" is often a matter of degree, rather than a bright line, should still inform the assessment of casualty figures in wars involving terrorists, paramilitary groups and others who fight without uniforms — or help those who fight without uniforms.

Turning specifically to the current fighting between Israel and Hezbollah and Hamas, the line between Israeli soldiers and civilians is relatively clear. Hezbollah missiles and Hamas rockets target and hit Israeli restaurants, apartment buildings and schools. They are loaded with anti-personnel ball-bearings designed specifically to maximize civilian casualties.

Hezbollah and Hamas militants, on the other hand, are difficult to distinguish from those "civilians" who recruit, finance, harbor and facilitate their terrorism. Nor can women and children always be counted as civilians, as some organizations do. Terrorists increasingly use women and teenagers to play important roles in their attacks.

The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit. Some — those who cannot leave on their own — should be counted among the innocent victims.

If the media were to adopt this "continuum," it would be informative to learn how many of the "civilian casualties" fall closer to the line of complicity and how many fall closer to the line of innocence.

Every civilian death is a tragedy, but some are more tragic than others. 

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail

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## mcpeepants

based on his response in the two articles Alan Dershowitz is trying to justify the killing of lebanese civilians. His spends the time implying the Lebanese civilians aren't quite civilians and that there deaths are not as important as those of Israeli citizens.

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## singern

> based on his response in the two articles Alan Dershowitz is trying to justify the killing of lebanese civilians. His spends the time implying the Lebanese civilians aren't quite civilians and that there deaths are not as important as those of Israeli citizens.



Not at all, he is however stating that The terrorists use, and indeed require civilian deaths to fan the flame of propaganda, and criminal duplicity. The complete hypocrisy of hiding weapons and terrorists in mosques, hospitals, schools, and civilian neighborhoods, then faking a few crocodile tears when they are engaged. 

This is all because they have no legal or moral legitimacy, and cannot justify the enthusiastic hatred, and zealot like actions.

Yes Israel does hold the moral and legal high ground here, there is no question.

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## mcpeepants

> Not at all, he is however stating that The terrorists use, and indeed require civilian deaths to fan the flame of propaganda, and criminal duplicity. The complete hypocrisy of hiding weapons and terrorists in mosques, hospitals, schools, and civilian neighborhoods, then faking a few crocodile tears when they are engaged. 
> 
> This is all because they have no legal or moral legitimacy, and cannot justify the enthusiastic hatred, and zealot like actions.
> 
> Yes Israel does hold the moral and legal high ground here, there is no question.


I don't see the moral high ground in bombing civilians and it's technically a war crime but this never gets enforced. I know that's what he is saying in the first article but in the second he wants to redefine a civillians. It's easier to blow someone up if you don't think much of them and probably makes the author sleep better at night.

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## singern

> I don't see the moral high ground in bombing civilians and it's technically a war crime but this never gets enforced. I know that's what he is saying in the first article but in the second he wants to redefine a civillians. It's easier to blow someone up if you don't think much of them and probably makes the author sleep better at night.


The moral high ground=
Hezbola is purposefully, intentionally targeting civilians. hence the term TERRORIST. 

Israel on the other hand is targeting Hezbola related infrastructure which *hides* in residential areas, and of course its fighters in South Lebanon. I challenge you to show any other army in the history of the war that instructs civilians to leave, and seek shelter because of an impending attack. There are around 300 civilian deaths in Lebanon, and I greave for all of them, however if Israel were targeting civilians that number would be more like 350000 deaths.

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## mcpeepants

> The moral high ground=
> Hezbola is purposefully, intentionally targeting civilians. hence the term TERRORIST. 
> 
> Israel on the other hand is targeting Hezbola related infrastructure which *hides* in residential areas, and of course its fighters in South Lebanon. I challenge you to show any other army in the history of the war that instructs civilians to leave, and seek shelter because of an impending attack. There are around 300 civilian deaths in Lebanon, and I greave for all of them, however if Israel were targeting civilians that number would be more like 350000 deaths.


Israel has blown up the airport, residential areas,roads, cars, UN post, etc that has nothing to do with Hezbollah. This kind of action appears to be trying to made conditions so bad for the Lebanese so bad that they turn against Hezbollah. This is also called collective punishment which is a war crime. They told the people to leave after bombing the roads they needed to escape. I'll look for other armies done that and respond later. That's an 350000 arbitrary number your putting out and you don't need high numbers to show that your targeting civilians.

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## singern

> Israel has blown up the airport, residential areas,roads, cars, UN post, etc that has nothing to do with Hezbollah. .


You forget that this is a war, started by a terrorist army, and every one of your examples has a strategic military value.
Airports, (of which only runways have been hit, not one airplane or tower has been damaged) and bridges serve to rearm the enemy, and move the kidnapped Israeli's. Those residential areas are the prime real-estate of Hezbola leadership, and command centers. and as we are seeing, it serves there propaganda purposes well. 
Don't you think the death toll would have been one hundred fold if Israel indeed was targeting civilians?

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## tiger909

> You forget that this is a war, started by a terrorist army, and every one of your examples has a strategic military value.
> Air


israel has reincarnated the highway of death, whats that strategic value

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_death

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## singern

> israel has reincarnated the highway of death, whats that strategic value
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_death



Sorry I don't get your point, either your saying Israel is somehow fighting Kuwait and Iraq, or you are making reference to something going on in Lebanon. If it is the later I don't see any connection or comparison. 
Please clarify your post.

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## Logan13

> based on his response in the two articles Alan Dershowitz is trying to justify the killing of lebanese civilians. His spends the time implying the Lebanese civilians aren't quite civilians and that there deaths are not as important as those of Israeli citizens.


Israel dropped leaflets warning citizens of the coming bombing campaign, I do not recall hezbollah doing that for Israel, do you? Israel has been bombing hezbollah strongholds, anyone that did not leave must be considered a hezbollah member or affiliate. It isn't as though the hezbollah fighters are a different race or stand out in any other way from Lebanese citizens.

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## tiger909

> Sorry I don't get your point, either your saying Israel is somehow fighting Kuwait and Iraq, or you are making reference to something going on in Lebanon. If it is the later I don't see any connection or comparison. 
> Please clarify your post.



israel has targetted dozens maybe hundreds of cars attempting to leave the area on the pretext that they were hez retreating, maiming hundreds of children

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## tiger909

> Israel dropped leaflets warning citizens of the coming bombing campaign, I do not recall hezbollah doing that for Israel, do you? Israel has been bombing hezbollah strongholds, anyone that did not leave must be considered a hezbollah member or affiliate. It isn't as though the hezbollah fighters are a different race or stand out in any other way from Lebanese citizens.


except for the fact that leaving the area requires a wealth beyond that which is available to many lebanese

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## Teabagger

> except for the fact that leaving the area requires a wealth beyond that which is available to many lebanese


Bull. Their legs not work or what.

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## mcpeepants

> You forget that this is a war, started by a terrorist army, and every one of your examples has a strategic military value.
> Airports, (of which only runways have been hit, not one airplane or tower has been damaged) and bridges serve to rearm the enemy, and move the kidnapped Israeli's. Those residential areas are the prime real-estate of Hezbola leadership, and command centers. and as we are seeing, it serves there propaganda purposes well. 
> Don't you think the death toll would have been one hundred fold if Israel indeed was targeting civilians?


Airport was hit and is unable to be used. This made it hard for foreign nationals to flee the countries. The major roads were bombed made travel and escape difficult if not impossible for some. Bombing these structures harms regulars lebanese citizens and is probably an attempt to get them to reject Hezbollah(which I don't see happening). I seriously doubt bridges are these roads and bridges are crucial to Hezbollahs operations. I definitely has reduced bombing attacks in Israel. I can see innocent civilians have been targeted and killed on both sides. You don't need high numbers to be targeting civilians.

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## mcpeepants

> Israel dropped leaflets warning citizens of the coming bombing campaign, I do not recall hezbollah doing that for Israel, do you? Israel has been bombing hezbollah strongholds, anyone that did not leave must be considered a hezbollah member or affiliate. It isn't as though the hezbollah fighters are a different race or stand out in any other way from Lebanese citizens.


Not being able to leave because the roads have been bombed or because your too injured, sick, old, scared, poor, or just don't does not make you a terrorists. Those leaflets were dropped after the major roads were bombed. How would you expect them leave? And people have been killed in cars as they tried to flee up north. You also shouldn't be bombing something if you don't no what it is.

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## singern

> I seriously doubt bridges are these roads and bridges are crucial to Hezbollahs operations. .


Then why is Nasrala in Syria? He is trying to rearm his fighters which are fast running out of ammo, and supplies. It seems taking out bridges, airport, and roads to Damascus has indeed been a strategic blow to Hezbola. As for the Lebanese civilians, don't get me wrong I don't take any joy in there suffering. But militarily Israel has been right on target. And as far as I can see IDF has gone out of there way to avoid civilian casualties.

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## Logan13

> except for the fact that leaving the area requires a wealth beyond that which is available to many lebanese


All it takes are legs and feet.

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## Logan13

> Not being able to leave because the roads have been bombed or because your too injured, sick, old, scared, poor, or just don't does not make you a terrorists. Those leaflets were dropped after the major roads were bombed. How would you expect them leave? And people have been killed in cars as they tried to flee up north. You also shouldn't be bombing something if you don't no what it is.


Hezbollah has a history of using neutrals and/or civilians as shields. As for the roads being bombed, walk out. Or, you could add to public scrutiny of hezbollah for using these people as shields in the first place.

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## spywizard

Either violate your own morality by coming after us and inevitably killing some innocent civilians, or maintain your morality and leave us with a free hand to target your innocent civilians. 

actually military doctrine allows for the loss of innocent civilians.. so i don't see the hipacracy in killiing them..

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## mcpeepants

> Then why is Nasrala in Syria? He is trying to rearm his fighters which are fast running out of ammo, and supplies. It seems taking out bridges, airport, and roads to Damascus has indeed been a strategic blow to Hezbola. As for the Lebanese civilians, don't get me wrong I don't take any joy in there suffering. But militarily Israel has been right on target. And as far as I can see IDF has gone out of there way to avoid civilian casualties.


He probably their to get more arms and what not. No disagreement there. But blowing out roads may be an incovience for Hezbollah but I don't think it will prevent them from rearming. It sure made it hard for civilians to flee though. If it was that easy to disarm guerrillas, insurgents, and terrorist, Iraq would have been a piece of cake. There been hitting civilian homes, cars, etc so I don't think their doing a good job at avoiding killing civilians.

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## mcpeepants

> Hezbollah has a history of using neutrals and/or civilians as shields. As for the roads being bombed, walk out. Or, you could add to public scrutiny of hezbollah for using these people as shields in the first place.


Walking out isn't easy if your injured, sick, too old or young, poor, or to scared. Don't forget Lebanon temperatures our in the mid 80s or so. Strenuous walking in this heat could lead to dehydration, heat exhaustion, heat strokes, or maybe death. Plus they risk being bombed as they flee.

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## Second Coming

Gifts recieved thank you.

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## clomid222

Typical Muslim rhetoric.

Here is their process:

(1) Attack someone. (IE: Hezbollah hitting Israel with rockets or kidnapping soldiers).
(2) Make terrorist demands and don't settle for anything.
(3) When the retaliation occurs, brace yourself.
(4) When the retaliation gets too bad find a really devastating photo and display it everywhere. This is an isolated incident, but pretend like it's happening everywhere.
(5) Throw your arms in the air and claim victim! Even though YOU started the conflict.


These Arab idiots need to learn not to attack people who are stronger, smarter, and more sophisticated then they are because they will suffer the most in the long run. Islam will never rules the world because it's ideals are too simpleminded and primative.

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## zodiac666

> Typical Muslim rhetoric.
> 
> Here is their process:
> 
> (1) Attack someone. (IE: Hezbollah hitting Israel with rockets or kidnapping soldiers).
> (2) Make terrorist demands and don't settle for anything.
> (3) When the retaliation occurs, brace yourself.
> (4) When the retaliation gets too bad find a really devastating photo and display it everywhere. This is an isolated incident, but pretend like it's happening everywhere.
> (5) Throw your arms in the air and claim victim! Even though YOU started the conflict.
> ...


is hizbollah imbread or just stupid naturally?

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## Rider

> Not at all, he is however stating that The terrorists use, and indeed require civilian deaths to fan the flame of propaganda, and criminal duplicity. The complete hypocrisy of hiding weapons and terrorists in mosques, hospitals, schools, and civilian neighborhoods, then faking a few crocodile tears when they are engaged. 
> 
> This is all because they have no legal or moral legitimacy, and cannot justify the enthusiastic hatred, and zealot like actions.
> 
> Yes Israel does hold the moral and legal high ground here, there is no question.


Who exactly are the terrorists? why Israel holds the moral? These ****ers Arabs kidnapped 2 (!!) Jews and Israel threw haundreds of bombs to Lebanon!!! is it fair I wonder? 
Israel been gifted with a State in a place where Arabs were living back in the 50s don't forget that

PS I don't see why an Israeli dead worths 20 Arabs dead!

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## singern

> Who exactly are the terrorists? why Israel holds the moral? These ****ers Arabs kidnapped 2 (!!) Jews and Israel threw haundreds of bombs to Lebanon!!! is it fair I wonder? 
> Israel been gifted with a State in a place where Arabs were living back in the 50s don't forget that
> 
> PS I don't see why an Israeli dead worths 20 Arabs dead!


You seem to skip over some important details. For example :
Hezbola crossed international border
Killed 8 solders
Kidnapped 2 solders
Fired several thousand rockets at Israeli civilians.

I see allot of folks complaining, marching, chanting death slogans because of Israeli damage on Lebanon, but its funny I don't see a single person in the Arab world complaining about Hezbola deliberately, intentionally aiming at Israeli civilians, with thousands of rocket strikes. Where is the condemnation? Where is the outrage?


IMO enough is enough, there is only so much a nation can take before things erupt as we are seeing now. Hezbola must be eliminated, and the Lebanese army must be deployed on the border.

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## judge_dread

:Evil2:   :Evil2:

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## judge_dread

hmm the debate goes on...

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## Rider

> You seem to skip over some important details. For example :
> Hezbola crossed international border
> Killed 8 solders
> Kidnapped 2 solders
> Fired several thousand rockets at Israeli civilians.
> 
> I see allot of folks complaining, marching, chanting death slogans because of Israeli damage on Lebanon, but its funny I don't see a single person in the Arab world complaining about Hezbola deliberately, intentionally aiming at Israeli civilians, with thousands of rocket strikes. Where is the condemnation? Where is the outrage?
> 
> 
> IMO enough is enough, there is only so much a nation can take before things erupt as we are seeing now. Hezbola must be eliminated, and the Lebanese army must be deployed on the border.


QUOTE=judge_dread]I assume you are an Israeli or an ally at least...pls learn some history man and remember the way Israel became a state! someone on an other thread told me I got issues on Israelis u know something I consider Israelis as criminals and terrorists especially after what they have done all these years....If US wasn't there we would see were Israel would be now![/QUOTE]

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## Logan13

> QUOTE=judge_dread]I assume you are an Israeli or an ally at least...pls learn some history man and remember the way Israel became a state! someone on an other thread told me I got issues on Israelis u know something I consider Israelis as criminals and terrorists especially after what they have done all these years....If US wasn't there we would see were Israel would be now!


[/QUOTE]

And if the US and Israel were true war mongers, the Middle East would be a frickin' parking lot today. You fuk with the bull, you get the horns.

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## Rider

You 've got to be kidding right?! Middle East IS a parking lot!! US and Israel are seeking peace lol yea right! we all saw the kind of peace and democracy US really means..Iraq, Latin America etc...
I wonder some of you guys in the States how come and don't know shit about history

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## Teabagger

Well Rider, educate us dumbasses in the US, K?

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## Logan13

> You 've got to be kidding right?! Middle East IS a parking lot!! US and Israel are seeking peace lol yea right! we all saw the kind of peace and democracy US really means..Iraq, Latin America etc...
> I wonder some of you guys in the States how come and don't know shit about history


There was not peace in the Middle East even before Israel and the US, now that's some history that you should read up on. Make no mistake about it, if the US wanted to take these countries' oil, we would have done it, hell we did not even ask the Iraqi leadership to help off-set the bill with oil reserves. The middle eastern leadership simply gets all of their citizens mind off the fact they live in squaller while the leaders are rich by blaming the everyday citizens problems on the US and Israel. Nevermind that the leadership of these countries is doing nothing to make live better for its citizens, they just point the finger West in order to get the focus off of their own inadequacies. So who did they blame in the past for their lagging economies and way of life?

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## singern

Logan you couldnt be more correct, but let me add to that.

There are on average 60 to 100 Muslim on Muslim murders/bombings in Iraq every day, 
There are on average 200 Muslim on Muslim murders/bombings in Northern Africa every day. 
There are Islamic terror bombings all over the world in which hundreds of innocent people are intentionally killed, and maimed. 

Yet where are the marches, Why are there no masses gathered in the streets, where are the shouts of death to this or that. Where is the condemnation, where is the outrage in the Muslim world?

But Israel mistakenly and tragically kills 28 innocent people in Lebanon. Or an American ties up some terrorist prisoners in a jail in Iraq and takes a picture, *The entire Arab world explodes with outrage and unimaginable violence.*

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## Mel Gibson

> Logan you couldnt be more correct, but let me add to that.
> 
> There are on average 60 to 100 Muslim on Muslim murders/bombings in Iraq every day, 
> There are on average 200 Muslim on Muslim murders/bombings in Northern Africa every day. 
> There are Islamic terror bombings all over the world in which hundreds of innocent people are intentionally killed, and maimed. 
> 
> Yet where are the marches, Why are there no masses gathered in the streets, where are the shouts of death to this or that. Where is the condemnation, where is the outrage in the Muslim world?
> 
> But Israel mistakenly and tragically kills 28 innocent people in Lebanon. Or an American ties up some terrorist prisoners in a jail in Iraq and takes a picture, *The entire Arab world explodes with outrage and unimaginable violence.*


Typical Zionist response, because they kill each other, we can kill them.

Israel has killed more than 600 innocent people in Lebanon, its a modern day massacre.

The new Nazis are the Israelies.

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## Mel Gibson

> And if the US and Israel were true war mongers, the Middle East would be a frickin' parking lot today. You fuk with the bull, you get the horns.


Yes, horns is right.

The US is done in Iraq, the horror has just started trust me on this. 

Afghanistan is starting to pick up momentum, because attention and troops are being diverted elsewhere.

In Lebanon Israel has not achieved one goal it set out to accomplish. Not one.

So like every other peoples resistance in the world, with time, the "powers" or "bulls" will be defeated and cry back, and retreat home.

People forget, history is the best predictor of the future.

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## Teabagger

Its not over till its over....and it's not close to being over. Enjoy the delusions as long as possible... :Aajack:

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## singern

[QUOTE=Mel Gibson]Typical Zionist response, because they kill each other, we can kill them.

QUOTE]

Not at all, the point I made is all about hypocrisy, not permission to kill. 
Before you flame you might take the time to read first, I will be happy to help you with the big words.

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## Rider

> Its not over till its over....and it's not close to being over. Enjoy the delusions as long as possible...


Arabs at least contributed in science (mathematics etc) let's see Israel's contribution.....masturbation

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## Kärnfysikern

> Arabs at least contributed in science (mathematics etc) let's see Israel's contribution.....masturbation


Uhm your kidding right? Anyone denying that israel is one of the countries developing cutting edge technology is blind to reality.

Now if you mention arab contributions to science. What about jewish countribution to science.

Einstein, bethe, weinberg, bohr, born, feynman, landau, pauli, oppenheimer, teller. heck the list just gones on and one and that is just the physcisists.

One out of five nobel lauerates are jewish. Thats a pretty ****ing huge acomplisment when they are like 0.5% of the world population.

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## Rider

> Uhm your kidding right? Anyone denying that israel is one of the countries developing cutting edge technology is blind to reality.
> 
> Now if you mention arab contributions to science. What about jewish countribution to science.
> 
> Einstein, bethe, weinberg, bohr, born, feynman, landau, pauli, oppenheimer, teller. heck the list just gones on and one and that is just the physcisists.


I am not kidding at all, TODAY indeed Israel develops some cutting edge technology but I am speaking about their past! tell me where were they in 500 BC? in 1000 AD? Show me their accomplishments in science, art etc...they were zero ,nothing they were only good in making some money lol
As about the other thing you said Einstein was a brilliant mind no question about it

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## Kale

I just did a search on the Hellenic Rebublic. Dude you guys have one hot looking Minster for Foreighn Affairs. Especially for 50 !!! Damn !!!! http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US

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## Kärnfysikern

> I am not kidding at all, TODAY indeed Israel develops some cutting edge technology but I am speaking about their past! tell me where were they in 500 BC? in 1000 AD? Show me their accomplishments in science, art etc...they were zero ,nothing they were only good in making some money lol
> As about the other thing you said Einstein was a brilliant mind no question about it


Im not diminishing arab contributions to science. That would be stupid. But what does it matter what israel did 1000AD when they are doing alot today? 

1000 years ago europe was in the dark ages while the middle east prospered. Does that mean arabs have contributed more to science than europeans?
You seemed to try and diminish israeli contributions to science and I dont se the need for that since there is no base for it.
Contributions made today are just as important as contributions made 1000 years ago.

----------


## singern

*Note to Rider Part 1*


*Jewish Nobel prise winners*

1910 - Paul Heyse 
1927 - Henri Bergson 
1958 - Boris Pasternak 
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 
1966 - Nelly Sachs 
1976 - Saul Bellow 
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 
1981 - Elias Canetti 
1987 - Joseph Brodsky 
1991 - Nadine Gordimer 
2001 - Imre Kertesz 
2005 - Harold Pinter 
World Peace
1911 - Alfred Fried 
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 
1968 - Rene Cassin 
1973 - Henry Kissinger 
1978 - Menachem Begin 
1986 - Elie Wiesel 
1994 - Shimon Peres 
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin 
1995 - Joseph Rotblat 

Chemistry
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 
1906 - Henri Moissan 
1910 - Otto Wallach 
1915 - Richard Willstaetter 
1918 - Fritz Haber 
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 
1961 - Melvin Calvin 
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 
1972 - William Howard Stein 
1977 - Ilya Prigogine 
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown 
1980 - Paul Berg 
1980 - Walter Gilbert 
1981 - Roald Hoffmann 
1982 - Aaron Klug 
1985 - Herbert Hauptman 
1985 - Jerome Karle 
1989 - Sidney Altman 
1992 - Rudolph Marcus 
2004 - Avram Hershko, Aaron Ciechanover and Irwin Rose 
Economics
1970 - Paul Samuelson 
1971 - Simon Kuznets 
1972 - Kenneth Arrow 
1973 - Wassily Leontief 
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 
1976 - Milton Friedman 
1978 - Herbert A. Simon 
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 
1985 - Franco Modigliani 
1987 - Robert M. Solow 
1990 - Harry Markowitz 
1990 - Merton Miller 
1992 - Gary Becker 
1993 - Robert Fogel 
1994 - John Harsanyi 
1997 - Myron Scholes 
2001 - Joseph Stiglitz 
2001 - George A. Akerlof 
2002 - Daniel Kahneman 
2005 - Robert Aumann 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Medicine
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff & Paul Ehrlich 
1914 - Robert Barany 
1922 - Otto Meyerhof 
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg 
1936 - Otto Loewi 
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 
1944 - Joseph Erlanger 
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 
1947 - Gerty Cori* 
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 
1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman 
1953 - Hans Krebs & Fritz Lipmann 
1958 - Joshua Lederberg 
1959 - Arthur Kornberg 
1964 - Konrad Bloch 
1965 - Francois Jacob & Andre Lwoff 
1967 - George Wald 
1968 - Marshall Nirenberg 
1969 - Salvador Luria 
1970 - Julius Axelrod & Bernard Katz 
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 
1975 - David Baltimore & Howard Temin 
1976 - Baruch Blumberg 
1977 - Rosalyn Sussman Yalow & Andrew V. Schally 
1978 - Daniel Nathans 
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 
1984 - Cesar Milstein 
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown & Joseph Goldstein 
1986 - Stanley Cohen & Rita Levi-Montalcini 
1988 - Gertrude Elion 
1989 - Harold Varmus 
1994 - Alfred Gilman & Martin Rodbell 
1997- Stanley B. Prusiner 
1998 - Robert Furchgott 
2000 - Paul Greengard 
2002 - H. Robert Horvitz & Sydney Brenner 
Physics
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 
1921 - Albert Einstein 
1922 - Niels Bohr 
1925 - James Franck & Gustav Hertz 
1943 - Otto Stern 
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 
1945 - Wolfgang Pauli 
1952 - Felix Bloch 
1954 - Max Born# 
1958 - Igor Tamm & Il'ja Mikhailovich Frank 
1959 - Emilio Segrè 
1960 - Donald A. Glaser 
1961 - Robert Hofstadter 
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 
1963 - Eugene Wigner 
1965 - Richard Feynman & Julian Schwinger 
1967 - Hans Bethe 
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 
1971 - Dennis Gabor 
1972 - Leon Cooper 
1973 - Brian David Josephson 
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 
1976 - Burton Richter 
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias & Pyotr Kapitsa 
1979 - Stephen Weinberg & Sheldon Glashow 
1988 - Leon Lederman & Melvin Schwartz & Jack Steinberger 
1990 - Jerome Friedman 
1992- Georges Charpak 
1995 - Martin Perl & Fredrick Reines 
1996 - Douglas D. Osheroff & David M. Lee 
1997 - Claude Cohen-Tannoudji 
2000 - Zhores I. Alferov 
2003 - Vitaly Ginzburg & Alexei A. Abrikosov 
2004 - H. David Politzer & David Gross

----------


## singern

*Note to Rider part 2

Muslim Nobel prise winners*

Nobel Prize in Chemistry
Ahmed H. Zewail, 1999 

Nobel Prize in Literature
Naguib Mahfouz, 1988 [1] 

Nobel Peace Prize
Anwar El-Sadat, 1978 
Yasser Arafat, 1994 
Shirin Ebadi, 2003 
Mohamed ElBaradei, 2005 

Nobel Prize in Physics
Abdus Salam[2], 1979 

Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine
none so far [3] 

Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics
none so far

----------


## singern

> I am not kidding at all, TODAY indeed Israel develops some cutting edge technology but I am speaking about their past! tell me where were they in 500 BC? in 1000 AD? Show me their accomplishments in science, art etc...they were zero ,nothing they were only good in making some money lol
> As about the other thing you said Einstein was a brilliant mind no question about it


Perhaps we should discuss the Arab/Islamic contribution to modern day civilization. Lets see, well theres the great Intellectuals like Osama, and Nasrala, and lets not forget the brilliant political prowess of Ahmadinejad, and Arafat........ 

Just an observation , you may want to STFU :Liar:

----------


## Mel Gibson

The Zionists kill women, the elderly, children, and now cats. But just like the Lebanese people, this cat gets up, bloody. And resists the Zionists aggression.

The Israeli terrorist nazi forces, alleged the cat was working with Hizbollah.

----------


## spywizard

do not post pics of injured animals...

----------


## Logan13

> Arabs at least contributed in science (mathematics etc) let's see Israel's contribution.....masturbation


Yes they have, but those societies do not exist any longer. What has the middle east contributed to the world in the last 300 years?

----------


## Logan13

> *Note to Rider Part 1*
> 
> 
> *Jewish Nobel prise winners*
> 
> 1910 - Paul Heyse 
> 1927 - Henri Bergson 
> 1958 - Boris Pasternak 
> 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 
> ...


wow, I had no idea. No wonder the arabs hate the Israelis, everyone loves to hate a winner............

----------


## Logan13

> I am not kidding at all, TODAY indeed Israel develops some cutting edge technology but I am speaking about their past! tell me where were they in 500 BC? in 1000 AD? Show me their accomplishments in science, art etc...they were zero ,nothing they were only good in making some money lol


So what? This only proves my point that the arab nations have dwindled in importance over the years. Besides oil and war, what have they done since?

----------


## Mel Gibson

> wow, I had no idea. No wonder the arabs hate the Israelis, everyone loves to hate a winner............


Arabs hate Israelies because of the Nazi Israelies and their treatment of Palestinians and the Nazis in Israel stealing Palestinian land.

----------


## RA

Tell me. What nationality was Yassir Arafat?

----------


## RA

Anyone?

----------


## Teabagger

You need to be banned....again.....you are so filled with hate you can't see anything but blood.............. :1hifu:   :Aabanhimlikeabitch:

----------


## RA

Next question while were waiting..Is palestine an actual place?

----------


## Teabagger

Wasn't Arafat an Eygptian......child molestor.

----------


## Zeael

> Anyone?


Sharon and Olmert were born in Palestine, since Israel did not exist at that time.

----------


## RA

> Wasn't Arafat an Eygptian......child molestor.


 

We have a winner..too bad windbag isnt around to hear it.. :Wink/Grin:

----------


## RA

> Sharon and Olmert were born in Palestine, since Israel did not exist at that time.


 
I like the way you answer questions. :LOL:

----------


## Zeael

Defense Minister of Israel Amir Peretz, born in Morocco.

Shaul Mofaz born in Iran.

Keep playing this game.

Did Jews fight for Jerusalem? Muslims have fought for Jerusalem with blood for hundreds and thosands of years, and always will.

----------


## Teabagger

> Defense Minister of Israel Amir Peretz, born in Morocco.
> 
> Shaul Mofaz born in Iran.
> 
> Keep playing this game.
> 
> Did Jews fight for Jerusalem? Muslims have fought for Jerusalem with blood for hundreds and thosands of years, and always will.


 :Aabanhimlikeabitch:  and his IP...if it continues...post his photo and address...he will really get banned then.

----------


## Zeael

> Next question while were waiting..Is palestine an actual place?


*Palestine*


1.) When was it founded and by whom?: British Mandate Palestine was created by the League of Nations in 1922 and governorship was mandated to Great Britain. Prior to that Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years. After its defeat by the Allies in World War I, the Ottoman Empire was carved up by the Allies into what is now the modern Middle East. The borders of the current nation states in the Middle East were determined after WWI by aBritish and French agreement (the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement). 

2.) What were its borders? Roughly the same as modern day Israel (including the occupied territories minus the Golan Heights, which is Syrian territory). 

3.) What was its capital?: Jerusalem 

4.) What were its major cities?:Bethlehem, Nablus, Jenin, Haifa, Beersheba, Hebron, Gaza, Jaffa, Nazareth, Khan Yunis, Ramallah, Qalqilya, Ramle and Tulkarem. (does not include cities destroyed by the Israelis in 1948) 

5.) What constituted the basis of its economy?:Agriculture. Many inhabitants were farmers and harvested olive and citrus trees. Olive oil was the main export. 

6.) What was its form of government?:Under the British mandate there was a Palestine National Congress that sent delegations to Great Britain, demanding independence. 

7.) Palestinian leaders before Arafat? Musa Kazim Pasha al-Husseini was president of the Palestinian National Congress until his death in 1934. Ahmed Shukeiry was the head of the PLO before Arafat. 

8.) Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation? The region of Palestine was promised by the British to the Zionists who wanted to establish a Jewish homeland there. The formal British agreement to permit Zionist colonization came in the form of a letter known as the Balfour Declaration on November 2, 1917, which supported creating a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine with the following condition, "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." In fact, the British overlooked the interests and approval of the natives of the land, the Palestinians. 

9.) What was the language of the country of Palestine? Arabic and Hebrew (although modern day Hebrew is a recent creation; most Jewish immigrants before 1948 spoke Yiddish). 

10.) What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine? Islam, a sizable minority of Christians and some Jewish communities. A survey was done showing the distribution of Palestinian and Jewish districts in Palestine in 1945 and was published by the United Nations (http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg). 

11.) What was the name of its currency?:The currency was the Palestine Pound and it was written in Arabic, Hebrew and English. The Palestinian Pound is equal to 1000 mils and was roughly equivalent to the British Pound. Type in "Palestine" on eBay and you will see actual coins for sale similar to the one here (http://www.vestedowl.com/coin.jpg). 

12.) Since there is no such country today, what caused Palestine's demise and when did it occur?: On May 15, 1948 when the Jewish immigrants expelled the Palestinian population, destroyed hundreds of their villages/cities, and founded Israel on 78% of the land of Palestine. Palestinians refer to this as the Nakbah or Catastrophe. Transjordan (later named Jordan) then took control of the West Bank and Egypt took over the Gaza Strip. In 1967, Israel attacked the Egyptian airforce, then took control of the remaining 22% of lands in the West Bank, Jerusalem, Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula. The Palestinians in those areas have been living under Israeli military occupation until today. 

Source: The Vested Owl (http://www.vestedowl.com/palestinian_view.html) 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The name "Palestine" derives from Palaestinia, the Roman name for the region, and ultimately from the Philistines, who occupied much of it during Old Testament times. 

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all inhabited Jerusalem in relative harmony until "the Crusades" [1] (http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...st/jerarms.htm) [2] (http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.c...iddleeast.html) (c.1099), and possibly until the creation of Israel in 1948. 

Stateless and humiliated for so long, Palestinians have risen up against Israel's huge [U.S. sponsored & supported] military machine, although they themselves have no arm, no tanks, no planes and gun ships or missiles. [3] (http://pilger.carlton.com/palestine) 

Some have committed desperate acts of terror, like suicide bombing. But for Palestinians, the overriding, routine terror, day after day, has been the ruthless control of almost every aspect of their lives, as if they live in an open prison. The John Pilger film, Palestine Is Still The Issue, is about the Palestinians and a group of courageous Israelis united in the oldest human struggle - to be free. [4] (http://www.johnpilger.com/palestine/) 

http://www.sourcewatch.org/wiki.phtml?title=Palestine

http://www.vestedowl.com/coin.jpg

also if you look at the census done by the U.N 2 years before israel was created you see :

http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg

----------


## Zeael

> and his IP...if it continues...post his photo and address...he will really get banned then.


My IP is a proxy, and has been banned.

I can make my IP do anything if I wanted to, I can make it show that I live in Alaska if I wanted to.

One more thing. For the smart people or Admins of the board. My IP proxies are set up usually to diplomatic missions in the United States, Russia, and/or Crotia.

But I see no point in doing that right now.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> Did Jews fight for Jerusalem? Muslims have fought for Jerusalem with blood for hundreds and thosands of years, and always will.


well point 12 in your last post shows jews did fight for israel...

----------


## Zeael

> well point 12 in your last post shows jews did fight for israel...


Yes, at the year it was created. Muslims have fought for Jerusalem and lost more lives than any other people in defense of Jerusalem.

----------


## Zeael

Double Post.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> Yes, at the year it was created. Muslims have fought for Jerusalem and lost more lives than any other people in defense of Jerusalem.


I guess the big question is WHY. No plot of land is worth any life. Would you rather se thousands of people die on both sides than to accept a peace treaty with firm borders?

----------


## Zeael

> I guess the big question is WHY. No plot of land is worth any life. Would you rather se thousands of people die on both sides than to accept a peace treaty with firm borders?


Arabs always wanted to accept a peace treaty. But Israel will never allow it.

Tell me why they would want to occupy the West Bank and Gaza? 

When Olmert talks about a pullout, the Zionists scream.

They are greedy, they want more land. They arent happy with the land they stole, they want more.

----------


## Zeael

The Zionists want to destroy the Palestinians, but unlike the Palestinians they are smart, and dont mention it.

They take part in systematic ethnic cleansing. But they dont realize the will and stubborness of Arabs.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> Arabs always wanted to accept a peace treaty. But Israel will never allow it.
> 
> Tell me why they would want to occupy the West Bank and Gaza? 
> 
> When Olmert talks about a pullout, the Zionists scream.
> 
> They are greedy, they want more land. They arent happy with the land they stole, they want more.


Dont tell me people like Ahmadinejad or hamas members would be willing to accept a peace treaty. Isnt it true that they want to se Israel cease to exist as a nation? 

Seems to me like most of israel is secular and wants peace while palestinians are fooled into voting for fanatics that wants anything but peace...

----------


## Zeael

Got to get a haircut, will be back later.  :1hifu:

----------


## Zeael

> Dont tell me people like Ahmadinejad or hamas members would be willing to accept a peace treaty. Isnt it true that they want to se Israel cease to exist as a nation?


Yes, there are also Jews that want to transfer Arabs out of Palestine and put them in Jordan or Egypt. There are also Jews who want to kill all Arabs in Palestine. 




> Seems to me like most of israel is secular and wants peace while palestinians are fooled into voting for fanatics that wants anything but peace...


If Israel really wanted peace, they would have peace. They want war, that is the only way to keep their occupation alive. They want to steal Palestinian land. They want the West Bank, all of it.

But these Zionists are sneaky, they keep their plans to themselves. Arabs on the other hand, just talk alot and boast about it.

----------


## Teabagger

Please lets not get into any insults anymore in this forum  :Smilie: 

Edited by johan

----------


## RA

> *Palestine*
> 
> 
> 1.) When was it founded and by whom?: British Mandate Palestine was created by the League of Nations in 1922 and governorship was mandated to Great Britain. Prior to that Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years. After its defeat by the Allies in World War I, the Ottoman Empire was carved up by the Allies into what is now the modern Middle East. The borders of the current nation states in the Middle East were determined after WWI by aBritish and French agreement (the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement). 
> 
> 2.) What were its borders? Roughly the same as modern day Israel (including the occupied territories minus the Golan Heights, which is Syrian territory). 
> 
> 3.) What was its capital?: Jerusalem 
> 
> ...


 






Thats not what I asked. Is there such a place...today? :Wink/Grin:

----------


## RA

> Yes, there are also Jews that want to transfer Arabs out of Palestine and put them in Jordan or Egypt. There are also Jews who want to kill all Arabs in Palestine. 
> 
> 
> 
> If Israel really wanted peace, they would have peace. They want war, that is the only way to keep their occupation alive. They want to steal Palestinian land. They want the West Bank, all of it.
> 
> But these Zionists are sneaky, they keep their plans to themselves. Arabs on the other hand, just talk alot and boast about it.


 


They are just defending THEIR country..

----------


## Banned1

> Thats not what I asked. Is there such a place...today?


Yes.

93 countries recognize the State of Palestine, and eleven more grant some form of diplomatic status to a Palestinian delegation, falling short of full diplomatic recognition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

----------


## Banned1

> They are just defending THEIR country..


They stole it. 

Its like a bank robber that robs a bank for 125,000 dollars. And then when cops fight the robber to get the money back.

Some people (like you) would call the robbers action, "defending HIS money".

----------


## kis55

> Anyone?


LOL. Very good point. Arafat, the "Father" of palestine, was born in Egypt. He was an Egyptian.

----------


## Banned1

Also just because 39+ countries do not reconize Israel, does not mean, it doesnt exist. Its a matter of prespective, I guess.

----------


## Banned1

> LOL. Very good point. Arafat, the "Father" of palestine, was born in Egypt. He was an Egyptian.


Ben-Gurion, the "Father" of Israel, was born in Poland. He was Polish. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

Let us play this game, lets go.

----------


## kis55

> Ben-Gurion, the "Father" of Israel, was born in Poland. He was Polish. 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion
> 
> Let us play this game, lets go.


You do bring up a relevant point, lets see if we can break it down some. The implication in my post, and in yours has to do with the ethnic identity of the individual as it relates to the "state" each claims. 

Now, Israel was recreated to be a homeland for the Jews, a safehaven, etc. Ben Gurion is Jewish, therefore, he, and the rest, claim Israel.

Now, Arafat, after even you admit he was not born in "palestine", is Egyptian, or, we could even be more general and just say he was arab. Now, as an Arab, where, pray tell, could an Arab go to claim a homeland, hmmmmmmmmm. Anywhere??? Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, etc. etc.

Or, perhaps we could even be more general and say Arafat was muslim. Now, where could a muslim go to claim a homeland. Hmmmmmm. Do I even need to list all the muslim countries in the world? If you need help listing them, a good reference point is to just add up all the countries that currently have war/terrorism going on there.

P.S. I'll give you a heads up, you are walking into a trap here. I anxiously await your response.

----------


## RA

> They stole it. 
> 
> Its like a bank robber that robs a bank for 125,000 dollars. And then when cops fight the robber to get the money back.
> 
> Some people (like you) would call the robbers action, "defending HIS money".


 
By that logic the indians should be asking for their land back...or better yet strapping bombs to their kids and trying to blow us up..

Grow up peter pan, count chocula..Id like to be pimps from Oakland or Cowboys from Arizona but this isnt halloween. :LOL:  


If anyone gets that Ill give em props. :Wink/Grin:

----------


## RA

> LOL. Very good point. Arafat, the "Father" of palestine, was born in Egypt. He was an Egyptian.


 
Exactly. These "opressed people" were being led by a guy that wasnt even from there!!

----------


## Banned2

> You do bring up a relevant point, lets see if we can break it down some. The implication in my post, and in yours has to do with the ethnic identity of the individual as it relates to the "state" each claims. 
> 
> Now, Israel was recreated to be a homeland for the Jews, a safehaven, etc. Ben Gurion is Jewish, therefore, he, and the rest, claim Israel.
> 
> Now, Arafat, after even you admit he was not born in "palestine", is Egyptian, or, we could even be more general and just say he was arab. Now, as an Arab, where, pray tell, could an Arab go to claim a homeland, hmmmmmmmmm. Anywhere??? Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, etc. etc.
> 
> Or, perhaps we could even be more general and say Arafat was muslim. Now, where could a muslim go to claim a homeland. Hmmmmmm. Do I even need to list all the muslim countries in the world? If you need help listing them, a good reference point is to just add up all the countries that currently have war/terrorism going on there.
> 
> P.S. I'll give you a heads up, you are walking into a trap here. I anxiously await your response.


Palestine is the Muslim homeland. All 1.4 billion Muslims need to move there and live there.

All the Zionists need to move back to Europe and Russia.

Arafat was born in Jerusalem, Zionist.

----------


## Banned2

> By that logic the indians should be asking for their land back...or better yet strapping bombs to their kids and trying to blow us up..
> 
> Grow up peter pan, count chocula..Id like to be pimps from Oakland or Cowboys from Arizona but this isnt halloween. 
> 
> 
> If anyone gets that Ill give em props.


Because they didnt "starp bombs" and fight for their land, they got raped, and got screwed over.

This is what happens, if you dont fight. You get screwed over, history has proven this.

Resistance is always blessed.

----------


## Banned2

> Exactly. These "opressed people" were being led by a guy that wasnt even from there!!


Same with the Israelies. No father of Israel was from Israel. Infact Israel never existed, its a modern Zionist creation.

The Jews were desperate for a state, and they were willing to take Uganda and even Argentina.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Uganda.html

----------


## Kale

Dickhead alert !! Dickhead Alert !!!

----------


## alphaman

> Same with the Israelies. No father of Israel was from Israel. Infact Israel never existed, its a modern Zionist creation.
> 
> The Jews were desperate for a state, and they were willing to take Uganda and even Argentina.
> 
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Uganda.html



Well the Bible which you claim is a holy book certainly doesn't hold the view that Israel is a "modern Zionist creation".

----------


## Banned2

_Zangwill became the movement's undisputed leader. After the rejection of the Uganda scheme on the grounds of impracticability by the British, Zangwill turned his attention to settlement in Canada and Australia. But opposition from local residents led him to abandon the scheme._

No one wanted these Zionists, not even the Ugandan people. But the Palestinians got screwed over.

----------


## Banned2

> Well the Bible which you claim is a holy book certainly doesn't hold the view that Israel is a "modern Zionist creation".


In the Bible, the State of Israel will be created by the Messiah, not a man made entity.

At the beginning of the creation of the State of Israel, ALL religious Jews rejected it. But eventually most bought the idea.

Although there are still, true Jews, who call the creation of Israel by MAN, an evil move.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ 

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ 

http://www.nkusa.org/

----------


## RA

America is a mondern creation by your standards. Should the indians be strapping bombs to their kids and blowing us up?

----------


## Banned2

> America is a mondern creation by your standards. Should the indians be strapping bombs to their kids and blowing us up?


They have every right to get back their homeland. They are justified, in attacking military targets.

----------


## Kale

> They have every right to get back their homeland. *They are justified, in attacking military targets*.


You mean like public buses and cafe's  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  You are so full of shit it defies description, why arnt you over there helping defend the faith with your equally retarded brothers ?

----------


## Banned2

> Well the Bible which you claim is a holy book certainly doesn't hold the view that Israel is a "modern Zionist creation".


http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...highlight=jews

----------


## Banned2

> You mean like public buses and cafe's  You are so full of shit it defies description, why arnt you over there helping defend the faith with your equally retarded brothers ?


Who said attacking buses and cafe's were justified? 

I have always said Al Queda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad ARE terrorist groups.

Hizbollah is NOT.

And I say this, and I am not even Shia.

----------


## Banned2

*Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed be He, in His Glory and Essence redeems us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as it explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And the Holy One, blessed be He, has warned us that if we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.*

----------


## RA

> They have every right to get back their homeland. They are justified, in attacking military targets.


 

OMG, I cant...

Is that what the people your defending do?

----------


## RA

> Who said attacking buses and cafe's were justified? 
> 
> I have always said Al Queda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad ARE terrorist groups.
> 
> Hizbollah is NOT.
> 
> And I say this, and I am not even Shia.


 

They are firing off rockets..they dont care if they hit a little girl riding a bike or a party store..those arent military targets!!

----------


## Banned2

> OMG, I cant...
> 
> Is that what the people your defending do?


All these groups are fighting for their land. That is the bottom line. The common equation.

Some groups use terrorism, some dont.

----------


## Banned2

> They are firing off rockets..they dont care if they hit a little girl riding a bike or a party store..those arent military targets!!


True, but Nasrallah only did it after Israel bombed Lebanon and killed civilians. 

Again who killed more civilians, Israel or Hizbollah?

Who is causing more "terror"? Hizbollah or Israel.

----------


## Slick Arrado

May all those that have passed away, on both sides, Rest In Peace.

----------


## RA

> All these groups are fighting for their land. That is the bottom line. The common equation.
> 
> Some groups use terrorism, some dont.


 
The means by which you fight shows a lot about your character.

----------


## Banned2

All these Jews kis55, Rak_Ani, and AIZ are not religious.

Rak_Ani herself admited it, and when I had a discussion with AIZ, I realize that I have more knowledge on Judaism than he does.

----------


## RA

> True, but Nasrallah only did it after Israel bombed Lebanon and killed civilians. 
> 
> Again who killed more civilians, Israel or Hizbollah?
> 
> Who is causing more "terror"? Hizbollah or Israel.


 
You must be blind as a bat. Israel goes out of their way to try and not kill civilians. Hizbollah is using them as shields to further their cause. Hizbollah is also TARGETING civilians. 120% different.

----------


## Banned2

> The means by which you fight shows a lot about your character.


Again if the Palestinians had Tanks, Apaches, Missles, F-16's, top of the line weaponry, they wouldnt be using terrorism.

Terrorism is a poor man's method of warfare.

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## Banned2

> You must be blind as a bat. Israel goes out of their way to try and not kill civilians. Hizbollah is using them as shields to further their cause. Hizbollah is also TARGETING civilians. 120% different.


Hahaha.

Again you are repeating what is said to you in the Zionist media. I dont blame you, you were brainwashed since you were a child.

You might say the same for me. But I always have lived in Western countries, I lived in India/Pakistan for 1 year. Jordan for about 6 months. But mostly Europe, Russia, and the US.

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## RA

> Again if the Palestinians had Tanks, Apaches, Missles, F-16's, top of the line weaponry, they wouldnt be using terrorism.
> 
> Terrorism is a poor man's method of warfare.


 
Doesnt make it right. Use gorilla warfare but attack their military, not innocent people.

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## RA

> Hahaha.
> 
> Again you are repeating what is said to you in the Zionist media. I dont blame you, you were brainwashed since you were a child.
> 
> You might say the same for me. But I always have lived in Western countries, I lived in India/Pakistan for 1 year. Jordan for about 6 months. But mostly Europe, Russia, and the US.


 
Way to run and hide bro. I speak the truth and you know it.

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## alphaman

> In the Bible, the State of Israel will be created by the Messiah, not a man made entity.


Deuteronomy 31:23
23 The LORD gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: "Be strong and courageous, _for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you."_



Psalm 105
1 Give thanks to the LORD, call on his name; 
make known among the nations what he has done. 

2 Sing to him, sing praise to him; 
tell of all his wonderful acts. 

3 Glory in his holy name; 
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice. 

4 Look to the LORD and his strength; 
seek his face always. 

5 Remember the wonders he has done, 
his miracles, and the judgments he pronounced, 

6 O descendants of Abraham his servant, 
O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones. 

7 He is the LORD our God; 
his judgments are in all the earth. 

8 He remembers his covenant forever, 
the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, 

9 the covenant he made with Abraham, 
the oath he swore to Isaac. 

10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, 
to Israel as an everlasting covenant: 

11 "To you I will give the land of Canaan 
as the portion you will inherit." 

12 When they were but few in number, 
few indeed, and strangers in it, 

13 they wandered from nation to nation, 
from one kingdom to another. 

14 He allowed no one to oppress them; 
for their sake he rebuked kings: 

15 "Do not touch my anointed ones; 
do my prophets no harm." 

16 He called down famine on the land 
and destroyed all their supplies of food; 

17 and he sent a man before them 
Joseph, sold as a slave. 

18 They bruised his feet with shackles, 
his neck was put in irons, 

19 till what he foretold came to pass, 
till the word of the LORD proved him true. 

20 The king sent and released him, 
the ruler of peoples set him free. 

21 He made him master of his household, 
ruler over all he possessed, 

22 to instruct his princes as he pleased 
and teach his elders wisdom. 

23 Then Israel entered Egypt; 
Jacob lived as an alien in the land of Ham. 

24 The LORD made his people very fruitful; 
he made them too numerous for their foes, 

25 whose hearts he turned to hate his people, 
to conspire against his servants. 

26 He sent Moses his servant, 
and Aaron, whom he had chosen. 

27 They performed his miraculous signs among them, 
his wonders in the land of Ham. 

28 He sent darkness and made the land dark 
for had they not rebelled against his words? 

29 He turned their waters into blood, 
causing their fish to die. 

30 Their land teemed with frogs, 
which went up into the bedrooms of their rulers. 

31 He spoke, and there came swarms of flies, 
and gnats throughout their country. 

32 He turned their rain into hail, 
with lightning throughout their land; 

33 he struck down their vines and fig trees 
and shattered the trees of their country. 

34 He spoke, and the locusts came, 
grasshoppers without number; 

35 they ate up every green thing in their land, 
ate up the produce of their soil. 

36 Then he struck down all the firstborn in their land, 
the firstfruits of all their manhood. 

37 He brought out Israel, laden with silver and gold, 
and from among their tribes no one faltered. 

38 Egypt was glad when they left, 
because dread of Israel had fallen on them. 

39 He spread out a cloud as a covering, 
and a fire to give light at night. 

40 They asked, and he brought them quail 
and satisfied them with the bread of heaven. 

41 He opened the rock, and water gushed out; 
like a river it flowed in the desert. 

42* For he remembered his holy promise 
given to his servant Abraham. 

43 He brought out his people with rejoicing, 
his chosen ones with shouts of joy; 

44 he gave them the lands of the nations, 
and they fell heir to what others had toiled for- 

45 that they might keep his precepts 
and observe his laws. 
Praise the LORD.* [a]

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## Banned2

> Doesnt make it right. Use gorilla warfare but attack their military, not innocent people.


That is what Hizbollah does, unlike Hamas. Yet some countries call Hizbollah terrorists, some.

Again, Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbollah combined.

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## RA

> That is what Hizbollah does, unlike Hamas. Yet some countries call Hizbollah terrorists, some.
> 
> Again, Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbollah combined.


 
Again, not on purpose. If they would come out of the woodwork and fight innocent people would be spared.

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## Banned2

> Again, not on purpose. If they would come out of the woodwork and fight innocent people would be spared.


So is that blackmail? You dont come out and fight, we will kill the innocent civilians?

Maybe the Israelies should come out of the woodwork and fight a ground war, not shoot missiles from planes and navy ships at civilian targets.

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## RA

You know thats not what I meant..when you hide behind them they are bound to get killed..and from what I see the ground game is coming.

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## alphaman

So Caus --

Why don't you respond to what the Bible actually says rather than looking at someone else's general statement?


What about this? Sound familiar?

Deuteronomy 30

1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever *the LORD your God disperses you among the nations*,* (70 AD)* 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes [a] and have compassion on you *and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.(1947)* 4 *Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land* *that belonged to your fathers(so here the Bible states again that the land belonged to Israel* ), and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7* The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. (2006 lol)*

_-- parenthesis added_



Disclaimer -- there is more than one interpretation to this passage. The one I am using here is the one that will mess with Caus the most..... But in no way can this passage be interpreted that Israel didn't own the land long before 1947.

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## Banned2

The Quran says something similiar -

*17:104* 

_And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) on the earth]. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations).[Tafsir Al-Qurtub&#238;, Vol. 10, Page 338]_ 

Again not by a man made entity (UN) but by GOD.

Muslims agree with real Jews.

*The People of Israel Oppose This For 4 Reasons* 

*FIRST* - Because this is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the people of Israel, as it explained above. Because the only time that the people of Israel where permitted to have a state were two thousand years ago when the Glory of the Creator was upon us. And likewise in the future when the Glory of the Creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him. T*hen He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service.*

However, a wordily state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substituted another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation." And the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize land and army.

However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. And this is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather, it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

*SECOND* - Because of all of this and other reasons Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed be He, in His Glory and Essence redeems us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as it explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And the Holy One, blessed be He, has warned us that if we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

*THIRD* - Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel, is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel are required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the Congregation of Israel.
*
FOURTH* - Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah, they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power, from fulfilling the commands of the Torah. They do this both with force and with trickery. Their claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight will all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.

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## alphaman

> The Quran says something similiar -
> 
> *17:104* 
> 
> _And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) on the earth]. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations).[Tafsir Al-Qurtubî, Vol. 10, Page 338]_ 
> 
> Again not by a man made entity (UN) but by GOD.
> 
> Muslims agree with real Jews.
> ...


Again -- Why don't we look at what the Bible says rather than what someone _says_ it says. This guy, this "real Jew" can say what ever he wants, but if he wants to be taken seriously -- he must back his statements with scripture.

*Isaiah 66:8

8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? 
Who has ever seen such things? 
Can a country be born in a day 
or a nation be brought forth in a moment? 
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor 
than she gives birth to her children.*

Hmmm... In 1945 Jews are being exterminated in gas chambers -- their existence as a people being threatened -- and in May 1948 there is the establishment of the state of Israel!!

If there is one thing I know it's that the Bible is true in what it says!


.

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## gixxerboy1

> They have every right to get back their homeland. They are justified, in attacking military targets.


So do the "Soviets" have a right to attack the rest of Europe and get thier land back?

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