# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  My trek through a new life in TRT

## bigboy67

Hey guys, first time posting, though I lurked for a while for info. I am 29 y/o and was recently diagnosed with low T. For the last 4 years I have gotten progressively more sluggish, blah about life, not excited about anything really. So I finally went to the doc to find out what is going on, and got the following blood test results (I know now I should have gotten more tests for a baseline, but its too late now)

*6/17/2011*

Total test 216.78 ng/dL
FSH 2.5 mIU/mL
LH 2.7 iu/L
Prolactin Level i 12.8 ng/mL

(also had a full CBC done as well, but too much to post, basically everything was normal, except my LDL was a little high [total cholesterol was fine])

Doc put me on 200mg Test Cyp eow

I was feeling good for a week at a time, then the second week sucked. Started lurking around forums, reading some good info, and then asked for weekly shots instead of eow. Doc said lets get a follow up test done

*7/21/2011*

Total Testosterone 240.50 ng/dL

(only test done)

Doc then decided to move me to 200mg ew. I did this for about a month, then talked him into letting me do it myself at home, and I split my dose up and starting dosing 100mg Test on Saturday night and then another 100mg on Wednesday afternoon.

This helped me to feel a little less puffy.

----------


## bigboy67

Now I have started to focus on making sure I get every lined out so I have a nice even protocol. I requested the following labs and had blood drawn today:

DHEAS
Total T
Bioavailable T
Free T
Estradiol (specifically requested the 'sensitive' assay)
LH
FSH
CBC
Lipid profile
SHBG

----------


## bigboy67

My only real problem is when I brought up hcg to my doc, he kind of rolled his eyes and told me that it is mainly for body builders, lol. I told him I have done a bit of research and it is a pretty standard protocol. He said he will discuss with me after my tests come back. He also says he thinks my Test Cyp dose is too high, but we shall see. I didn't even breach the subject of an AI since I don't even know what my E2 levels are yet so I will wait until I get those results back

I tried my hardest to find a doc that has more experience with TRT, but I live in Portland Oregon, so everybody recommends me going to these fricken naturopathic physicians. I am just afraid they are gonna try to cure me by taking me off Test and making me eat tree roots and shit, honestly, I am not interested. I just wanna get dialed in so I can stop focusing so much of my time on this

----------


## bigboy67

anybody have any recs for a real doctor in Portland Oregon that is TRT friendly and NOT an anti-aging clinic? I have really great insurance (my Test script comes out to $1 per injection)

and what do you think of my situation? ANy better way to approach my doc about the hcg and Anti-e?

----------


## Jredwine

I dont understand why docs arent giving hcg for low test. it's probably a good first step befor jumping on TRT. If you could jumpstart your natty test levels with HCG, why wouldnt you want to? I think we both aling in the fact that we both want our t levels on the high side and the rest to be kept in check, but I'd rather do it naturally if possible first. hcg is pricey without insurance covering. About 135 from normal pharma. A compunding pharma can usually get it down to 60-80 bucks. Mine was $65 per vial.

I dont understand it though as hcg is FDA approved for raising low t. I got mine thru bodylogicMD. they definitely get it. Costs about 700 for the lab and first visit and then about 65 bucks every 40 days for hcg, 10 bucks per 10 cc vial of test, and they will give you AI's with no questions asked and more than likely will just give it to you because it's part of their recommended protocol.

Hate to say it, and this will probably change, but Anti Aging clinics seem to have this down much better.

----------


## bigboy67

> Hate to say it, and this will probably change, but Anti Aging clinics seem to have this down much better.


Ya, I could go that route, but thats the whole reason I have like the best insurance in the world, it just doesn't seem to matter since all the docs have their brains stuck in the 50's. 

There has got to be a good MD who is a known TRT guy in Portland, I just haven't found him yet. Driving me crazy. If I have to I will just get a legal online script for the hcg and AI until I can find a good TRT doc in Portland. 

I refuse to let some old antiquated thought process to control how I feel the rest of my life, its ridiculous.

----------


## sirupate

Just FYI...you can get HCG and AI's from overseas pharmacy sources without a scrip. Price is generally much less expensive than if bought in the US. I'm sure the "authorities" frown upon this, but also don't make an effort to stop it either. You would be self-treating however. If you can not find a good doctor, this is one option.

edit to add that one of the site sponsors sell AI's too...very reliable vendor.

----------


## bigboy67

I dont have any moral issues with self treating, but there is another wrinkle in all of this. My employment may be changing in the next few years, and if so I will be shooting for some positions which would require me to testify on polygraph that I have not used any illegal substances in the past so many years (includes steroids and associated protocols), so I have to ensure I have a script and do everythign on the up and up so I can honestly answer the question in the future.

Seems silly, I know, but I would hate to exclude myself from these positions over an AI and hcg

----------


## sirupate

> I dont have any moral issues with self treating, but there is another wrinkle in all of this. My employment may be changing in the next few years, and if so I will be shooting for some positions which would require me to testify on polygraph that I have not used any illegal substances in the past so many years (includes steroids and associated protocols), so I have to ensure I have a script and do everythign on the up and up so I can honestly answer the question in the future.
> 
> Seems silly, I know, but I would hate to exclude myself from these positions over an AI and hcg


Not silly at all. It is a shame that steroids were made CIII substances and villified by the media.

----------


## GotNoBlueMilk

Jredwine: we don't discuss sources. Prices are still up in the air, but seems we don't often get away with that either (depends on which moderator sees it).

----------


## GotNoBlueMilk

Some people find HCG a good replacement for TRT, but it is not a slam dunk universally. If your leydig cells have lost their ability to produce Test (common cause for low Test levels), all the HCG in the world isn't going to help. HCG only raises Test if your pituitary is not producing enough LH but your leydig cells are functioning fine. 

And when HCG does raise Test levels, it does it at a cost, because it also raises progesterone and estrogen in addition to estrogen conversion that occurs from the higher Test levels.

----------


## bigboy67

> Some people find HCG a good replacement for TRT, but it is not a slam dunk universally. If your leydig cells have lost their ability to produce Test (common cause for low Test levels), all the HCG in the world isn't going to help. HCG only raises Test if your pituitary is not producing enough LH but your leydig cells are functioning fine. 
> 
> And when HCG does raise Test levels, it does it at a cost, because it also raises progesterone and estrogen in addition to estrogen conversion that occurs from the higher Test levels.


Yeah, I definitely am staying on the Test shots, just wanted to add the AI and hcg in there to have a balanced protocol that I can live with long term. 

BTW, please feel free to PM me a good MD in Portland that works with TRT so we can avoid anyone getting in trouble with the mods here

----------


## bigboy67

Another quick question. I always here guys on these forums talking about getting more/less sleep affecting testosterone , getting blood tests at night cuz thats when test levels will be lowest, etc. but wouldnt all of that go away once you starting injecting exogenous test and you shut down the natural test production?

----------


## funkymonk

Yup. LH sort of "pulses" in the morning IIRC, leading to a peak of natty test. Of course, you're probably shut down by now so I don't see how it would matter. I still go for my bloods first thing in the morning. They're 12 hour fasted since they run liver/lipid panels with my followups.

----------


## bigboy67

Felt like a slug today in the gym. Basically, because I have been lazy and fat for like the last 4 years, I have been hitting the gym 5-6 days a week, taking a day off when I start to feel run down. 

But today, I just felt like I had no energy or strength. My lifts were still good and weights up, but man it felt like a huge struggle for every rep today.

Getting my test results this week, will post as soon as I get the results. Hoping the E2 is in check and my levels are now good. 

Really, I was hoping that going from having a TT of 216 to dosing 200mg of Test a week would mean that I would feel really good, but honestly I dont feel like I have gotten that big "boost" yet, and it has been about 3 months

----------


## lvs

How did you sleep and how much sleep did you get last night. How was/is your diet. Did you have any alcohol last night, many factors can play in to your energy/stamina levels.

----------


## bigboy67

I slept fine, probably 7 hours. I usually get 7-8.

I had two beers with dinner, but that never would affect me in the past. Is something different now that I am supplementing Test?

My diet is pretty clean now, bout 2400 cals, 45% protein, 35% carb, 20% fat, all clean sources (eggs, little dairy, wheat toast, protein powders/shakes, chicken, rice)

----------


## lvs

> I slept fine, probably 7 hours. I usually get 7-8.
> 
> I had two beers with dinner, but that never would affect me in the past. Is something different now that I am supplementing Test?
> 
> My diet is pretty clean now, bout 2400 cals, 45% protein, 35% carb, 20% fat, all clean sources (eggs, little dairy, wheat toast, protein powders/shakes, chicken, rice)


Diet and sleep look pretty good to me. Are you on E2 inhibitor? I wonder if your E2 is off the wall?

----------


## bigboy67

> Diet and sleep look pretty good to me. Are you on E2 inhibitor? I wonder if your E2 is off the wall?


I'm not on an E2 inhibitor as of yet, not a real one anyways, I am currently using SNS Inhibit-e (OTC) for whatever that is worth. Once I get my numbers back this week, I will know for sure

----------


## bigboy67

I found an anti-aging/bioidentical hormone clinic in my hometown that does SubQ Test implants for ~$320 (supposed to last about 3-4 months), interesting option maybe something I will look at if I get sick of the e3D injections. Called my doc today, blood tests not back yet, but they are goign to fax them to me as soon as they get in

----------


## bigboy67

Got some results back from my latest blood test

DHEA - 2.430 [1.33-7.78] ng/mL
E2 - 112 [<=52] pg/mL
FSH - 0.3 [1.3-19.3] mIU/mL
LH - 0.3 [1.2-8.6] IntUnit/L
Testosterone , Free - 334 [47-244] pg/mL
SHBG - 16 [11-80] nmol/L

Also had a CBC and CMP done as well, everythign was normal except:

HCT - 55.4 [43.5-53.7] 

I think this means I need to start doing a monthly blood draw, what do you think? 

How about my free test results? 

I know my E2 is really high right now, so I am going to call the doc to get put on an AI. not sure why a Total Test number didnt come through on this round of blood tests, I am sure I ordered it.

I am feeling good about the free test numbers and SHBG. I think once my E2 is in order I will feel a whole hell of a lot better. I may even drop myself down to 150mg per week when I run the AI. 

Also thinking of running a DHEA/selegiline cream to supplement DHEA.

----------


## bigboy67

oh, adn just to clarify my current protocol:

200mg Test ew, broken up into two doses of 100mg which I inject every 3.5 days
no AI
no hcg 

no other supplements except protein, 5-htp, and milk thistle for my previously high liver numbers

----------


## bigboy67

Talked to my doc's assistant. Apparently they forgot to add the Total Testosterone test to everythign else, kinda lame since I don't know my total levels. 

Doc is supposed to call adn I will find out if he will jsut prescribe me an AI, or if he is going to make me come in for another appt before he will prescribe it.

Think my free test numbers look good?

----------


## bigboy67

I definitely specified the male "sensitive" assay for my estradiol test, so I think this may explain why I haven't really been feeling that much better. At first I felt great, my I guess my body caught up, haha. With an E2 level of 112, no wonder I feel like shit.

----------


## APIs

> I definitely specified the male "sensitive" assay for my estradiol test, so I think this may explain why I haven't really been feeling that much better. At first I felt great, my I guess my body caught up, haha. With an E2 level of 112, no wonder I feel like shit.


I'm on roughly the same Test dose @ 100 mgs E4D. E2 of 112 is def no good. I take .5mg Anastrazole M, W, F & it keeps my E2 below 20. I've recently gotten below 260 lbs though & I'm thinking my E2 is probably even lower now. No sides experienced yet, but will have to check on my next BW @ end of Oct...

----------


## bigboy67

> I'm on roughly the same Test dose @ 100 mgs E4D. E2 of 112 is def no good. I take .5mg Anastrazole M, W, F & it keeps my E2 below 20. I've recently gotten below 260 lbs though & I'm thinking my E2 is probably even lower now. No sides experienced yet, but will have to check on my next BW @ end of Oct...


What is your Total Test and Free Test numbers on that dosage? 

Ya, I am going to haunt my doctor today so I can get the prescription for an AI and start NOW on it before my tits hit my knees, hahaha. 

For Arimidex , should I take a frontload sized dose of it first? like take 1 mg M/W/F the first week then back down to .25mg M/W/F after that?

----------


## bigboy67

> I'm on roughly the same Test dose @ 100 mgs E4D. E2 of 112 is def no good. I take .5mg Anastrazole M, W, F & it keeps my E2 below 20. I've recently gotten below 260 lbs though & I'm thinking my E2 is probably even lower now. No sides experienced yet, but will have to check on my next BW @ end of Oct...


what are your Free and Total Test numbers on that dosage? 

I am haunting my doc today until he gives me a script for the Adex. Should I frontload by dosing 1 mg M/W/F for the first week and then move down to .25mg M/W/F, just to knock my E2 down right away?

----------


## bigboy67

Test test test, my posts are showing up for some reason, weird

Guess once they release the hold on my account a bunc of the same posts are gonna show up, lol, I can only edit this post for some reason

----------


## bigboy67

> I'm on roughly the same Test dose @ 100 mgs E4D. E2 of 112 is def no good. I take .5mg Anastrazole M, W, F & it keeps my E2 below 20. I've recently gotten below 260 lbs though & I'm thinking my E2 is probably even lower now. No sides experienced yet, but will have to check on my next BW @ end of Oct...


what are ur free and total test numbers on that dosing? Should I 'frontload' my first few doses of the AI? Just to get my numbers down initially, then move to .25mg EOD?

----------


## bigboy67

ok, just talked to my doc. he says, "hmmm, your E2 is really high, and your free test numbers are quite high as well. we should back your dose down to 150mg."

I say no prob, 105mg ew it is, now what are we gonna do about my E2 being 112? his answer? "nothing, wait two weeks and let the E2 drop along with your Test numbers. If you have to be put on an AI, then I will have to refer you to a specialist."

so, i am going to wait the aforementioned 2 weeks and get my E2 checked one more time. if he says he is sending me to some kook endo that is gonna give me the run around, I am taking my business to a fricken anti-aging clinic and paying out of pocket.

----------


## bigboy67

Just made an appt with an anti-aging clinic. have already emailed with this guy and is A4M board certified with full prescription capabilities. In the know, available, and he takes some insurance as well (but even the out of pocket on it isnt really that bad)

----------


## lvs

Keep us informed on how it goes.

----------


## bigboy67

Here is the email I got from my new HRT doc, much more along the lines of what I am thinking. I don't necessarily agree with his thoughts on dosage on T yet, but will talk to him about it on Tuesday.

" Here are my thoughts on your situation.


1) 200mg of testosterone cypionate is supra-physiologic and the body will convert the excess testosterone to estrogen. The testicles of a healthy young male produce around 8mg of testosterone per day give or take. Testosterone cypionate is about 70% testosterone. So, a 200mg dose is around 140mg of Testosterone. Divided by seven is 20mg/day. Easily twice what a healthy male produces. Doctors not trained well in anti-aging/HRT medicine don't seem to realize this, and this does not serve their patients well. 100mg weekly of testosterone cypionate is the upper limit of what I use. 
There are of course many other things that can raise estradiol. Taking too much DHEA will do it, for example. 


2) Dividing the dose to twice weekly makes sense in some patients as the 1/2 life of testosterone cypionate is around 4 days. This helps level out the serum T throughout the week. The main drawback to injectable T is that you get a huge peak then a drop off towards the end of the week. Most guys end up on 30-50mg/twice weekly.


3) HCG . HCG is nice to use if you want to preserve the testicles. Most guys also feel an increased sense of well being while taking HCG. There is HCG done right and HCG done wrong. The body is unable to absorb more than 500 IU of HCG in one day. Any protocol suggesting more than that is not based on human physiology. The HCG protocol developed by Dr. John Crissler is among the more intelligent strategies. http://www.allthingsmale.com/index.html. If doing injectable T once per week, HCG is added as a sub-Q injection on days 5 and 6.


4) I would put you on a more physiologic dose of testosterone, use an AI short term to fix the high Estradiol, with the added HCG and retest your levels in one month. You would add zinc 50mg as a natural AI. Retest in one month. If estrogen is still high, but testo is normal, we would have a discussion about aromatase inhibitors (anastrazole, femara etc.) long term . All rx can be called into the pharmacy of your choice. 


5) We will verify your insurance benefit for you. If you have good coverage, we will bill your insurance. Otherwise, we can provide you with the superbill and you can forward that to your insurance carrier. Worst case scenario, your first visit is $150, f/u visits are $80.00. We would need approximately four visits a year the first year and likely less on subsequent years. 


6) Other TRT options. Pellets are good option, theoretically, as they mimic the physiology of the body. However they are expensive and require frequent surgical implantation 2-3 times per year. The cost is around $400 per implant which includes all the testosterone. I am not really recommending this to patients under 70 years old, as the cumulative number of surgical interventions falls out of the "do no harm" ethos. 

"


By the way, found out my insurance covers consultation with him, just a $20 copay, awesome! And the fact that he mentions Dr. Crisler really gives me hope this time around.

----------


## bigboy67

xxxxxxxxxx double post xxxxxxxxxxxx

----------


## funkymonk

Sounds like he knows exactly what he's doing. For what it's worth, 100mg a week (no AI) works wonders for me. Test is @ 800 4 days after injection, and 500 6.99 days after injection.

----------


## bigboy67

per my new doc's recommendation, I have begun taking Zinc. Supposed to take 50mg a day, but I went ahead with 100mg yesterday and 100mg today. probably just placebo effect since it couldn't have had enough time to get into my blood enough to drop my E2 down, but i felt super strong today, not sure why. 

could just be my estrogen swinging around and today happened to be a good day, who knows.

----------


## funkymonk

Everything I've read about Zinc says that it's useless unless you're deficient. I'm interested to see if it affects you.

----------


## bigboy67

saw my new doc today, he was awesome. bottom line:

Over the next five weeks i am goign to back down my dose from 200mg ew to 80 mg ew, in addition to .25 mg of arimidex eod for five weeks as well. Then I am going in for a follow up and labs. at which point we will introduce 250iu hcg e3d, wait a month, and then retest all my levels again and see where i am. also putting me on some vitamins, yadda yadda, the norm

----------


## funkymonk

I would injure someone for a regimen that perfect.

----------


## bigboy67

> I would injure someone for a regimen that perfect.


ya, and covered by insurance no less, which I thought was a myth nowadays.

----------


## lvs

terrific news! After almost a year, I am still not dialed in, ugh!

----------


## bigboy67

Just took my first dose of arimidex of .5 mg. will be doing .25 mg eod after this and I know it will take around a week to feel better.

these pills are fckn tiny though. I have a pill cutter, but even with that it is really hard to cut these tiny pills into quarters. any tips?

----------


## bigboy67

Steroidogenic_Pathways.pdf

My doc gave me this document, pretty useful and interesting to see all of the interactions between your hormones. THough tyou guys might like to have it too if you don't already have it that is.

----------


## bigboy67

ok, so maybe I am being crazy, but I have dropped like 4 lbs. in the last 3 days after starting my AI. Am I nuts, or am I dropping some water weight or something I was holding onto when my E2 was 112?

----------


## lvs

i suspect water retention was the result of those 4 lbs.



> ok, so maybe I am being crazy, but I have dropped like 4 lbs. in the last 3 days after starting my AI. Am I nuts, or am I dropping some water weight or something I was holding onto when my E2 was 112?

----------


## bigboy67

So I have been on an AI for about 5 days. nothing too crazy to report, I have not felt any big boost of energy, libido, etc. I have noticed that my muscles actually feel a bit harder than before. Also, I don't know if you remember a stupid movie that Bruce Willis did called Unbreakable? Lol, I only bring it up cuz there is a scene where he is bench pressing in his house, and thinks he cant lift anymore weight and realizes he can keep increasing the weight?

Sorry for the tangent, but yeah, I have actually started feeling that way. Like I will do a lift and at rep 6 I think I am dead, but then for some reason I am able slowly rep out 5 more reps, so I guess I have gotten some sort of (maybe placebo) increase in my max strength stamina. 

hopefully in the next week or so I will start to feel the mood lift, etc. that other guys report, along with being able to feel a nice big strength/well being boost. It'd be nice to feel dialed in for the first time in a VERY long time.

----------


## bigboy67

one week in on arimidex , still lowering my dos of Test about 20mg per week for the next two more weeks until my doc follow up and blood retesting

still havent noticed any noticeable changes in my mood, libido, weight, strength, etc. but I am being patient seeing as how this is going to be a forever process

----------


## bigboy67

Went back for a follow up hydrostatic BF % test on Friday. 

In 30 days I lost 1.5% BF, and lost 5 lbs of fat and 1 lb of muscle, so I'm on the right track at least

Still not feeling much of a mood change after being on an AI for close to two weeks

----------


## bigboy67

Had to go to Texas for work training for the rest ofthe week. Shot was scheduled for Wednesday, so I took it T home on Tuesday afternoon before flying to avoid having to bring my Test on the plane with pins.

Brought my AI, so no worries there

----------


## bigboy67

Had a strong morning wood today from 4:30-6, guessing this is the AI getting my E2 in check?

----------


## bigboy67

did my first deltoid injection

have also reduced my Test does down to 100mg ew, per my doc's request. I reduced the dose 20mg per week over 5 weeks to avoid creating any big hormonal/mood swings. 

Sent in an adrenal test which consisted of 4 vials full of frozen spit, lol. hopefully with figuring my adrenal function, and balancing out my Test dose with an AI (as well as hcg which will be coming after my blood test in two weeks) i will be lined out with a strong protocol i can run with for the next 6-12 months without too many more changes

----------


## --->>405<<---

hey man im glad to read ur thread.. i have first appt with endo tomorrow.. hope mine works out as well as urs  :Smilie:

----------


## bass

> did my first deltoid injection
> 
> have also reduced my Test does down to 100mg ew, per my doc's request. I reduced the dose 20mg per week over 5 weeks to avoid creating any big hormonal/mood swings. 
> 
> Sent in an adrenal test which consisted of 4 vials full of frozen spit, lol. hopefully with figuring my adrenal function, and balancing out my Test dose with an AI (as well as hcg which will be coming after my blood test in two weeks) i will be lined out with a strong protocol i can run with for the next 6-12 months without too many more changes


excellent! besides the morning wood, how are you feeling overall?

----------


## --->>405<<---

> Had a strong morning wood today from 4:30-6, guessing this is the AI getting my E2 in check?


are u serious??like 1 1/2 hrs of a hard on?? u couldnt get rid of it???

----------


## bigboy67

> excellent! besides the morning wood, how are you feeling overall?


I feel pretty good overall. Can tell I am not retaining near as much water weight/bloat. Feel good mentally, no depression, gym sessions are good. I have dropped about 19 lbs since i started TRT. 

starting jiu jitsu next week at my buddy's gym, so I am sure I will start really losing it big time.

----------


## bigboy67

> are u serious??like 1 1/2 hrs of a hard on?? u couldnt get rid of it???


Serious as a heart attack man. 1.5 hours straight. well..... i could have gotten rid of it, lol, but it was too early to wake my wife up, lol

----------


## --->>405<<---

LOL .. so if u have sex or jack off itll go away?? i dont think id want to walk around with a boner for 2 hrs.. sounds uncomfortable..

----------


## bigboy67

> LOL .. so if u have sex or jack off itll go away?? i dont think id want to walk around with a boner for 2 hrs.. sounds uncomfortable..


its not uncomfortable until you hit hour number 4, lol (my buddy once dosed my Jack and Coke with two Viagra as a prank)

----------


## brazilian86

You're gonna get your ass kicked the first few months in Jiu Jitsu. I just got my blue belt!

----------


## bigboy67

> You're gonna get your ass kicked the first few months in Jiu Jitsu. I just got my blue belt!


Haha, ya I know they are gonna ball me up and choke me out, hahaha. Especially since my buddy is the one running things. He got his black belt from Megaton Diaz in Brazil. He ain't one of these guys who got a black belt from a cracker jack box, lol

Honestly it will be good to have goals like belts to reach for, I am bored as hell lifting weights anymore

----------


## brazilian86

Your goals won't be belts. Your goals will be defending yourself against the ones that are chocking you up now. And then after a while you will
Be chocking the newer guys and kicking ass, and then when all the white belts are under your power, then you are ready for a blue belt! That's my case! Hahaha

----------


## bigboy67

> Your goals won't be belts. Your goals will be defending yourself against the ones that are chocking you up now. And then after a while you will
> Be chocking the newer guys and kicking ass, and then when all the white belts are under your power, then you are ready for a blue belt! That's my case! Hahaha


Had my first BJJ class today. Got balled up and choked about 20 times in an hour, hahaha. It was pretty awesome though. I am done lifting weights, its boring to me, gonna stick with BJJ and just lift a little on the side to hold onto my strength.

----------


## brazilian86

I'm so glad you like it. From now on your life will be something else!!!!
So much better to know something like Jiu Jitsu. If the other guy on the street wants to fight you and you guys end up on the floor, you'll merk the guy!!! Hahaha

----------


## flatscat

nice thread - informative updates and good info....

keep up the good work and this thread.

You might not want to give up the strength training all together though.

flats

----------


## bigboy67

> nice thread - informative updates and good info....
> 
> keep up the good work and this thread.
> 
> *You might not want to give up the strength training all together though*.
> 
> flats


Ya, I will probably lift still on my off days, at least a couple days a week. But for now, I will be rolling 4 days a week, so I will probably be beat for like a month until my body gets used to this type of work. I am all kinds of sore in all kinds of places from rolling yesterday, haha.

----------


## bigboy67

Quick question, I have noticed by elbow and knees have been aching quite a bit lately. I attribute some of this to jiu jitsu, but honestly i havent been getting cranked on and twisted up all that much so I am starting to think my E2 may be low. I will get this confirmed via blood test next week when I get my whole panel redone after starting an AI (.25mg eod) and lowering my Test dose from 200mg to 100mg per week. 

ok, so question is, if I continue to feel these joint pains, but my E2 isnt crazy low, is there something else I can add into the mix that will make my joints feel better but still allow me to take my AI and keep estro in check?

----------


## brazilian86

I go to sleep and wake up sore and joints and bonesvaching everyday. Back also is a bitch! It's all from rough training and jiu jitsu.

----------


## brazilian86

Jiu jitsu is rough on joints.... Maybe Deca would make it soooo much better! Lol

----------


## ConArmas

BigBoy, thanks for posting all your experience with this. It anwered alot of my questions.

----------


## bigboy67

> BigBoy, thanks for posting all your experience with this. It anwered alot of my questions.


no problem Con, I figured somebody might get some use out of my experience. 

I have an appt. tomorrow at the clinic, going to do full blood panels, and likely get me started on hcg shortly after getting the results back. interested to see what my E2 and Test levels are going to be after dropping down to 100mg Test ew and adding in the AI

----------


## bass

> no problem Con, I figured somebody might get some use out of my experience. 
> 
> I have an appt. tomorrow at the clinic, going to do full blood panels, and likely get me started on hcg shortly after getting the results back. interested to see what my E2 and Test levels are going to be after dropping down to 100mg Test ew and adding in the AI


looking forward to seeing the results!

----------


## bigboy67

just got back from the doc. he drew blood for:

Total Test
Free Test
E2
PSA
Thyroid
DHEA
Preg
CBC
CMP
Lipid profile

Also got the results of my adrenocortex saliva test I took a few weeks ago. Looks like my cortisol numbers are normal in the AM and afternoon, but then dip below reference in the evening and midnight. So, I will be supplementing desiccated adrenal pills at lunchtime to get my numbers on point as far as adrenal function. 

Doc said we will see how the numbers come back on my tests and will have another appt in two weeks. in the meantime I will continue .25mg eod AI, and drop my Test dose again to 80mg ew in anticipation of adding hcg 300iu twice a week.

overall, good visit, doc said he will likely get my E2 back in a few days, other numbers back in a week or so.

Will also be seeing a new GP, ditched the old one since he was such an asshole about my concerns about my hormonal health. Getting a new one, will get him up to date on everything, and will also be looking to see if he will be willing to prescribe me an albuterol inhaler to help with what I can only describe as lung tightening adn airway closing during cardio based exercise. its not just me being gassed, it is a specific feeling of closing up airways that i am gonna talk to him about

----------


## ConArmas

Good luck with the new GP and keep updating on your results. Thanks!

----------


## bigboy67

My E2 came back today, went from 112 to 38 after 5 weeks on arimidex . Sweet! Should be pretty level after 5 weeks of .25mg EOD

----------


## Brohim

38 is good. Shouldn't need much or any at all on lower doses.

As far as HCG Guys report more pronounced feeling of well being on HCG. Keep us updated on how it goes. How do you like BJJ? Is it easy to learn?

----------


## bass

> My E2 came back today, went from 112 to 38 after 5 weeks on arimidex. Sweet! Should be pretty level after 5 weeks of .25mg EOD


thats great, and thanks for the update!

----------


## brazilian86

Bjj is the hardest and most advanced martial art in the world!
You never stop learning!  :Wink:

----------


## WerewolfBaby

great thread thanks, please Read my Noob Fd up PCT thread......My Estrogen is also very high, need to find place to order AI online that will deliver quick, while awaiting back and forth with BioLogicMD on labs I got from another Anti Aging clinic that over charges like gang busters. 

I have been grappling 15 years fyi

----------


## brazilian86

> great thread thanks, please Read my Noob Fd up PCT thread......My Estrogen is also very high, need to find place to order AI online that will deliver quick, while awaiting back and forth with BioLogicMD on labs I got from another Anti Aging clinic that over charges like gang busters.
> 
> I have been grappling 15 years fyi


Very nice!!! Grappling is nothing compared... Try it with a GI  :Wink:

----------


## bigboy67

I guess you could say it is really easy to start rolling and learning BJJ, but there are so many tiny body movements that result in different moves that it really is like playing chess with your body. 

I have been assured by everyone that basically, for the next 2-4 months I will be choked and tapped and pretzled more times than I will be able to count, lol. But it is great for the ego actually. You know, when you are a big dude, lif heavy weights, tattoos, etc. You generally feel like a tough guy. BJJ is great at breaking down my ego. You tap, or you break. You tap, or you go unconscious. There just isn't any room for ego at that point, I am learning that.

----------


## bigboy67

so, I would like to get my E2 to about a 20. right now after bloods it has come back at a 38 after a steady .25mg AI eod. my question is, should i move to .33mg eod AI? and if so, how the hell do you guys who take this amount cut these tiny pills into thirds?

----------


## bass

thats a tough one Big, i would suggest to take 1/4 two day in a row after your injection, basically just up your does 1/4 per week. this is where liquidex comes in handily in these situations!

----------


## bigboy67

> thats a tough one Big, i would suggest to take 1/4 two day in a row after your injection, basically just up your does 1/4 per week. this is where liquidex comes in handily in these situations!


The only thing is my insurance covers the arimidex , so I basically pay 80 cents per mg. Is there a liquid arimidex you can get through prescription, or is that just from research chem sites?

----------


## bigboy67

Doc says my E2 actually came back at a 39. he wants my E2 under 30, and for me to have a 30:1 Test to E2 ratio, which sounds great, lol. Waiting for the remainder of the results to come sometime this week, and then i have another appt next week with him to adjust protocol

----------


## bigboy67

I know some are going to think this is stupid, but I am gonna tattoo X's on my thighs in my favorite stick spots so I know where to inject. I'm heavily tattooed as it is, so it doesn't bother me, and I think It will actually be very helpful

----------


## bass

> I know some are going to think this is stupid, but I am gonna tattoo X's on my thighs in my favorite stick spots so I know where to inject. I'm heavily tattooed as it is, so it doesn't bother me, and I think It will actually be very helpful


LOL! no you need to change spots anyway, if you keep sticking in the same spot you will end up with muscle damage!

----------


## bigboy67

If I have two on each leg that means I will not stick the same spot but once a month. Is that still too often?

----------


## bass

> If I have two on each leg that means I will not stick the same spot but once a month. Is that still too often?


are you serious?! still laghing..... the funny part is i thought doing the same thing but not a permanent mark, then later realized how easy it became and now i can do it with my eyes closed! but do what makes you happy  :Smilie:

----------


## bigboy67

> are you serious?! still laghing..... the funny part is i thought doing the same thing but not a permanent mark, then later realized how easy it became and now i can do it with my eyes closed! but do what makes you happy


Haha, FINE! use your logic, you win this time sir, but i shall have my revenge! lol

----------


## bigboy67

I changed to once a week shots about 6 weeks ago from e3.5d shots, and I have definitely noticed that I get real irritable around Sunday and Monday. 

Decided to switch my protocol back to e3.5d. My doc wanted me on once a week, but I think that was all about my bold tests anyways. Seeing him tomorrow for full review of bloods I had two weeks ago, will post update of numbers and such afterwards

----------


## bigboy67

Just saw my new GP. Uggghhhhhh

We talked about my TRT, and he says "well I'd like you to see an endo, and honestly a 216 Testosterone level isn't that low."

Ummmm, ya, I think I'm gonna go ahead and stick with my other doc for this part of my health, this new GP would probably want me to come off , be a maniac, then tell me it's not cuz of my testosterone. Lame.

----------


## bigboy67

alright, got my bloods back......

Total Test - 916 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free Test - *258.6* (35-155 pg/mL)
E2 - 39 (13-54 pg/mL)


This is with my dose at 80mg Test Cyp once per week! Soooooo, he wants me to drop my dose down to 40mg per week, and we are adding in hcg (should have it in about a week)

After my wife has our baby, I may just switch to a cream, not sure.

Everything came back normal, except my iron level was a little low (going to supplement).

----------


## lvs

How do you feel at these levels? 

May I ask why you would want to switch to the cream after you have your baby? I am not sure I would want to risk exposing the child to the test.




> alright, got my bloods back......
> 
> Total Test - 916 (250-1100 ng/dL)
> Free Test - *258.6* (35-155 pg/mL)
> E2 - 39 (13-54 pg/mL)
> 
> 
> This is with my dose at 80mg Test Cyp once per week! Soooooo, he wants me to drop my dose down to 40mg per week, and we are adding in hcg (should have it in about a week)
> 
> ...

----------


## bass

> alright, got my bloods back......
> 
> Total Test - 916 (250-1100 ng/dL)
> Free Test - *258.6* (35-155 pg/mL)
> E2 - 39 (13-54 pg/mL)
> 
> 
> This is with my dose at 80mg Test Cyp once per week! Soooooo, he wants me to drop my dose down to 40mg per week, and we are adding in hcg (should have it in about a week)
> 
> ...


these are great results, why in the hell he wants to change it? drop it to 40?! so what he wants you to have total T at 450?! if you feel good with these levels i'd say don't change it.

----------


## bigboy67

> these are great results, why in the hell he wants to change it? drop it to 40?! so what he wants you to have total T at 450?! if you feel good with these levels i'd say don't change it.


He wants me to drop from 80 to 40 a week to get my numbers down a little since my free test is so fricken high. but, more importantly i am going to be on hcg as well starting this week so he thinks 40 will get my Free Test down a little in conjunction with the increase i will probably see from the hcg synergy with the Test and AI

----------


## bigboy67

> How do you feel at these levels? 
> 
> May I ask why you would want to switch to the cream after you have your baby? I am not sure I would want to risk exposing the child to the test.


Just something I am kicking around, thinking long term with having thousands of injections in my lifetime doing this therapy, thinking it may be a viable option for me to go with the cream since I react so well to Testosterone therapy

----------


## bigboy67

> these are great results, why in the hell he wants to change it? drop it to 40?! so what he wants you to have total T at 450?! if you feel good with these levels i'd say don't change it.


Plus, my free testosterone as a percentage seems really high, so even if my Total Test were a 450 my Free Test would still be a 127. Wouldnt that be a nice level of Free Test?

----------


## bass

> Plus, my free testosterone as a percentage seems really high, *so even if my Total Test were a 450 my Free Test would still be a 127. Wouldnt that be a nice level of Free Test*?


 i suppose! it really comes down to how you feel. i just posted my blood work results in the Sub-Q injection thread, not very good!

----------


## kelkel

> How do you feel at these levels? 
> 
> May I ask why you would want to switch to the cream after you have your baby? I am not sure I would want to risk exposing the child to the test.


Exactly...

----------


## bigboy67

> Exactly...


I feel okay. For the numbers, I would think that I would feel a bit more on top of the world, but really I jsut feel normal, lol

jsut tossing the Test cream idea for the future to save myself from the thousands of needle sticks over my lifetime. I am only 29

----------


## flatscat

40mg's test/week is way less than a healthy male should produce in a week. You will be disappointed with the outcome. Even with the hcg .

----------


## BigMax88

Man, at 80mg per week your test is good. I'm taking 200mg 5x a month w/ hcg and can't imagine what my levels are going to be. And to the doc who said 216 isn't really that bad, I would of walked out on him. Do you think once your e2 levels are in the optimal range that you'll feel better?

----------


## bigboy67

> Man, at 80mg per week your test is good. I'm taking 200mg 5x a month w/ hcg and can't imagine what my levels are going to be. And to the doc who said 216 isn't really that bad, I would of walked out on him. Do you think once your e2 levels are in the optimal range that you'll feel better?


I think dropping my test a bit should still keep me in a nice high range for my test/free test, and also drop my E2 down to that optimal 20-30 range. Hopefully that will be my sweet spot

----------


## bigboy67

My doc uses a sterile compounding pharmacy in California to fill his hcg prescriptions. looks like cash price for 10ml would be $180. I would be taking .25ml every 3 days, so by my calc it should last 120 days. which means it would cost 45 per month cash price. Does this all sound reasonable? Do any of you guys have to get from a far away sterile compounding pharmacy?

----------


## bigboy67

hadnt heard otherwise form you guys, so i placed the order so that hopefully it will arrive this weekend. I figure if i do have a better option for getting it closer and at a better price, i will take that option after this 120 day supply goes bye bye

----------


## flatscat

Bro, just saw this - way too much for compounded HCG - but in so far as you have ordered it - good for you - just look around next time for better pricing.

----------


## bigboy67

> Bro, just saw this - way too much for compounded HCG - but in so far as you have ordered it - good for you - just look around next time for better pricing.


Dang! I knew I should have waited. I got so anxious to get my order in. Good news is that for a 4 month supply the amount wasnt prohibitive. But at least I know now for the future, and I will also bring it up to my AA doc to see why I cant get it elsewhere.

Flatscat, sent you a PM

----------


## Vettester

> I think dropping my test a bit should still keep me in a nice high range for my test/free test, and also drop my E2 down to that optimal 20-30 range. Hopefully that will be my sweet spot


Strangely enough, my E2 "Sweet Spot" is right at/around 30. I've had it in the tank, I've had it over 40. My optimal sex drive and general well being seems to be right at the 30 mark. I increase my AI just a little in summer and keep my E2 closer to 20, which gives me a much dryer look, but I don't have near the sex drive. Just another guy's opinion to think about.

----------


## bigboy67

> Strangely enough, my E2 "Sweet Spot" is right at/around 30. I've had it in the tank, I've had it over 40. My optimal sex drive and general well being seems to be right at the 30 mark. *I increase my AI just a little in summer and keep my E2 closer to 20, which gives me a much dryer look, but I don't have near the sex drive*. Just another guy's opinion to think about.


That is really interesting. I'm still too fat to worry about looking dry in the summer, lol, but when i get there I will try that out.

----------


## bigboy67

shit! just got my hcg . they sent me one vial to reconstitute. that means that even though i got a "120 day supply", it will only be good for roughly 60 days? I am pissed right now. 180 dollars for this? plus 20 shipping? 10,000 iu's, divided by 200 bucks, means i get 50 iu's per dollar. half that if you consider the 60 day lifespan, so 25 iu's per dollar. if i take 250 iu's every three days, that means that this will cost me $10 per injection!

Help me out here guys, this is ridiculous. I am not looking for any UG crap here, I have a script for the hcg, can you guys PM me some good options for pharmacy's that ship so i can get it cheaper?

----------


## bass

well whoever prescribed it for you is at fault, call then and tell them they screwed up, and demand that they send you 5000iu vials! thats sucks, you wait all this time then you get the wrong stuff.

----------


## Vettester

Nothing like getting bent over! Even if you wanted 10,000iu, that price is over the top!

----------


## bigboy67

> Nothing like getting bent over! Even if you wanted 10,000iu, that price is over the top!


The rules allow us to talk price and pharmacies right? Since they are not UG and are legit scripts? If so, post up some of the prices you guys are paying and where you go (unless its just a local pharm) cuz I need to tell this doc where to send my next script. I cannot afford this hcg price , even if it does round out my protocol, lol

----------


## fit2bOld

Walmart mail order pharmacy has HCG (Novarell) $120 or there about. This is !0,000 iu

----------


## bigboy67

> Walmart mail order pharmacy has HCG (Novarell) $120 or there about. This is !0,000 iu


Wow, that is quite a bit cheaper too, thanks Fit

----------


## bigboy67

Ok, so I reconstituted 10,000 iu of hcg with 10ml of bac. Water. So each 1 ml has 1000 iu hcg. If I need 250 a dose, that's .25ml. But the insulin syringe is in units (total 50) and at 50 units it says it equals .5 cc. I can it figure the conversion so I get .25ml. Tried searching, but people kept saying it depends on the concentration. Can you guys help?

----------


## bigboy67

Can someone help with the above question? Nervous about over/under dosing the hcg

----------


## Vettester

> Ok, so I reconstituted 10,000 iu of hcg with 10ml of bac. Water. So each 1 ml has 1000 iu hcg. If I need 250 a dose, that's .25ml. But the insulin syringe is in units (total 50) and at 50 units it says it equals .5 cc. I can it figure the conversion so I get .25ml. Tried searching, but people kept saying it depends on the concentration. Can you guys help?


Sounds like you have a 1/2 cc syringe. 10,000iu reconstituted with 10ml of bac water, 1ml does = 1,000iu. In the case that you have a 1/2cc, .50 units syringe, that would = 500iu. So, you will only need to draw half the syringe with HCG at .25 units, 1/4 cc, or in this case 250iu. The concentration is 10ml of water to 10,000iu of HCG, so it's easy to figure out. In the future, if you get a 10,000iu vial, you might find it easier to just add 5ml of bac water. This would cut out a lot water, and in your case you could easily draw .125 or an 1/8 of a cc to get the 250iu. 

Also, there's pharmacies out there that will sell you the 5,000iu compounded for/around $50.

----------


## bigboy67

Thanks Vette! Thought I had it right. Thanks for the confirmation. I will def. be shopping around before buying next time

----------


## APIs

I started a discussion on HCG pricing last month. My HCG from CVS varies in price. For a few months it was only $98 for 10,000 IUs. Last refill in October was $150. People were guessing the fluctuation in price was due to the HCG Diet fad going on right now, but I dont know. Generics go up & down for various reasons. Even @ $200 a script I'd still pay it. You can't put a price on HCG, as it's a must-have for proper TRT...

----------


## bigboy67

OK, so there must be some disconnect between the pricing I am seeing, and how cheap you guys are saying this is supposed to be. I just called three pharmacies; a local compounding pharmacy, walmart, and walgreens. 

local compounding pharmacy = $250-300 for 10,000iu compounded
walmart = $1,100 for 10,000 iu
walgreens = $1,800 for 10,000 iu

So tell me what I am missing here. Guys are telling me they are getting 10,000 iu for a $100? Then tell me how, cuz I dont see it happening

----------


## lvs

damn! the walmart/walgreens pricing sounds like HGH prices. I get mine from overseas pharms, because I can't get a script for it. However after Mad Cow thread earlier, I am wondering if that is such a good idea.




> OK, so there must be some disconnect between the pricing I am seeing, and how cheap you guys are saying this is supposed to be. I just called three pharmacies; a local compounding pharmacy, walmart, and walgreens. 
> 
> local compounding pharmacy = $250-300 for 10,000iu compounded
> walmart = $1,100 for 10,000 iu
> walgreens = $1,800 for 10,000 iu
> 
> So tell me what I am missing here. Guys are telling me they are getting 10,000 iu for a $100? Then tell me how, cuz I dont see it happening

----------


## bass

damn thats crazy! i got two 10,000 iu vilas for $200 from my clinic!

----------


## bigboy67

> damn thats crazy! i got two 10,000 iu vilas for $200 from my clinic!



WTF?! what am I missing here then, lol. this is crazy, like I am in some sort of bubble where I cant access reasonably priced hcg ? 

PM's please. my doc has no problem sending my script to whomever has the reasonably priced hcg, so lemme know so I can get this squared away.

----------


## yannick35

That is freaken expensive, androgel gel 30 day supply without insurance was 158$ with insurance coverage 33$ per month

Testosterone Enhantate 5ML was 33$ per month without insurance, and 9$ per month after coverage.

----------


## bigboy67

> damn thats crazy! i got two 10,000 iu vilas for $200 from my clinic!


Hey Bass, sent that pharmacy info you gave me to my doc, he said when it comes time for me to re-up, he is going to use your pharmacy. Thanks man, I really appreciate the help from you on this one.

----------


## bigboy67

10th day on hcg , been doing 250iu eod, havent felt any different yet and havent noticed the boys getting any bigger yet either. will just wait and see i suppose.

----------


## lvs

> 10th day on hcg, been doing 250iu eod, havent felt any different yet and havent noticed the boys getting any bigger yet either. will just wait and see i suppose.


This has been my experience as well... I am not seeing or feeling the real joy here.

----------


## bigboy67

> This has been my experience as well... I am not seeing or feeling the real joy here.


Ya, i keep hearing that I am going to feel good, some euhporia, balls swell up, libido boost. but no, I have not felt any of these things so far, but as with everything TRT I am learning to be a little more patient and give it time

----------


## Vettester

Be patient on the results. I remember that I was getting a little frustrated after about 3 weeks when I first initially got setup on a EOD protocol. Then Wah-Lah, it really started to kick in. Unless there is some other primary condition going on, you will see benefits. Just stay on course.

----------


## Patrickthecool

Man I wish I had insurance that good. sounds like you are getting what you need

----------


## bigboy67

Not TRT related, but I am at the hospital, wife is having our first baby  :Smilie:

----------


## flatscat

Bro, Congrats! I pray that everything goes well and is as it should be. Great times. Savor every moment. You will only ever have one "first ".

Flats

----------


## bigboy67

My little girl. Olivia Grace, 6 pounds 9 ounces, born on Wednesday

----------


## --->>405<<---

aww very cute :Smilie:  congrats dude..

----------


## lvs

precious congrats...

----------


## kelkel

your a DAD! Congrats!

----------


## JD250

Congrats bro!!

----------


## bigboy67

not sure if its because my sleep schedule has been screwy with the new baby, but i gotta say that as of yet I am pretty dissapointed in adding hcg to my protocol. my boys dont feel like they have swollen up, and i dont feel any sense of well being that wasnt there before. and i am doing 300 iu eod. not sure if i am going to continue after this vial, doesnt seem to be doing much for me

oh, and proud dad alert.....

----------


## bigboy67

coming out of the weeds from having a newborn baby. today is first day back to work since she was born. just had bloods drawn last week, will post results when i get them. 

oh, and i also switched to subQ Test injections as well

----------


## bass

congratulations on your new baby, thats a pretty looking baby! how long you been on hCG ? usually takes about 3 months or so. it could be bad hCG, i think mine is so we'll see how the next vial will do.

----------


## J DIESEL3

Congrats man! You are blessed to have such a perfect new baby.The guys are right hang on a bit.I felt the same way as you until the 3rd or 4th week.

----------


## bigboy67

I will run another 4 weeks of the hcg after this batch runs out, which would put me at 90 days of consistent use of hcg, at that point i will decide if i am gonna keep on the hcg or not

----------


## bigboy67

doc found me hcg 5000iu, which would last me for two months, for $71.50 shipped, stoked

----------


## flatscat

glad you found it. what exactly are you hoping to see by using it?

----------


## bigboy67

> glad you found it. what exactly are you hoping to see by using it?


well so far i am not sure i have felt or seen any changes at all. My boys dont seem bigger, i havent noticed any mood lift, etc. so i am not sure what hcg is actually doing for me personally. buttttttttt, i also dropped my Test dose down to 40mg per week and added hcg at the same time, so maybe i would have felt worse without the hcg addition after dropping my dose, so its kind of hard to tell

----------


## flatscat

what??????

I guess you are going to make me read all your posts .... 40 a week, geeze... that's just enough to shut you down no matter what your added hcg is. Hang on let me read. Really pretty little girl btw!

----------


## flatscat

> 40mg's test/week is way less than a healthy male should produce in a week. You will be disappointed with the outcome. Even with the hcg.


Ah yes ..... here it is broski

----------


## bigboy67

> what??????
> 
> I guess you are going to make me read all your posts .... 40 a week, geeze... that's just enough to shut you down no matter what your added hcg is. Hang on let me read. Really pretty little girl btw!


you saw my Free Test and Total Test numbers on 80 mg per week right?! huge numbers, so we wanted to see where 40mg per week would put me

----------


## flatscat

Sorry brother. Doesn't matter who we is... 40 a week will shut any natty production down and in my opinion will negate most benefits from added hcg .

----------


## bigboy67

I hear ya Flat, and we will find out real soonhow I am doing since we pulled bloods after I had been at 40mg for some time with hcg . 

my appt is on tuesday with the doc, so i will post my blood results on tuesday

----------


## nomlas

Bigboy,
Just found this fourm and your thread! Very good read. I've been trt for 2 1/2 months now, first a gel for 45 days, then swithced to , 200test cyp E5D, 250HCG E5D(one day after test) and analstolzol 1mg E5D(Same day as hcg ). I'm still getting dialed in but I find the hcg has helped in the libido the most and I can feel when I'm running low. No increase in testicle size though, just mantained. I've never felt the big boost everyone refers to on trt, but have felt gradually better. BTW Congrads.

----------


## bigboy67

my wife let me know that I haven't been all kittens and rainbows the last 6-8 weeks like I had previously thought. apparently I have been a huge bitch to her the last 6-8 weeks. brought it up to the doc, adn we agreed that I should get back up to 80 mg Test Cyp ew.

My bloods were as follows, showing the dip in total and free test (although my free test is still in a nice range)

Total Test 388 [250-1100 ng/dL]
Free Test 111.3 [35.0-155.0 pg/mL]
E2 35 [< or = 39 pg/mL]

Also had my CMP and CBC done as well, with everything coming back on the money except that my Ferritin came in a little low at 40 [20-345 ng/mL] so I am going to add Iron biglycimate 25 mg/day to supplement

Changes to my protocol

OLD
Test cyp 40 mg every wednesday
.25mg anazstrazole e3d
hcg 250mg eod

NEW
Test cyp 80 mg every wednesday
anastrazole 0.5mg every wednesday, friday, sunday
hcg 300iu every sunday and monday

----------


## flatscat

There you go brother. Back on the right track and off the bitch run lol

----------


## bigboy67

haha, ya, it was time to get back on a man's TRT protocol, haha

I am going to try to get back to being at about 900 total test, thats where i felt best

----------


## bigboy67

Hey fellas... long time no post. Time for an update.... Just got my bloods back after being on 100mg Test Cyp EW, .5mg Arimidex 3x a week, and 300hcg 2x a week. I will skip the boring stuff....

Total Test 776 [250-1100 ng/dL]
Free Test 185.5 [35.0-155.0 pg/mL]
E2 {{undetectable}} [< or = 39 pg/mL]

So my total Test is pretty good, and apparently I convert really well to free, so happy about that. Doc said that when they test E2, anything below a 12 is untestable, yikes. What is weird is I havent had any joint issues. I have been having some lower back troubles and some lower back muscle spasms though, reckon that could be it, I thought it was from the training. 

I have dropped 30 lbs and 6% BF since January. Real happy about that, especially since my diet wasnt the cleanest for some of that time. 

I decided to do a blast for 10 weeks. I am running 400mg Test, 400mg EQ each week, along with 2iu HGH per day, .5mg AI per day, T3 and Clen . I will be running this for 10 weeks, along with a super tight diet. I am in week 3 right now. 

Once I have dropped the remaining 20-30 lbs and get down to about 210-220 (depending on where my body most comfortably stabilizes), I am going to stop TRT for 6 weeks and have my bloods drawn. My doc and I think that dropping that level of weight, along with my body's ability to really convert Test well, may put me in a good range where I can be comfortable, and not have to supplement. This is of course with a few other changes like mandatory sleeping schedule, cutting booze, etc. 

If I feel like shite, cant operate, and my numbers come back garbage, I am right back on the sauce, no issues with that. Just want to make good and darn sure

----------


## bigboy67

I am ramping my GH up to 4 iu as of today and for the next 10 weeks

----------


## bigboy67

Noticed that my lower back has been havign spasms and weakness lately. decided to back my arimidex dose while I am blasting down to .5mg EOD instead of 1mg per day since I seem to be pretty sensitive to AI's. Dropped it a few days ago so hopefully will be able to report back some improvement

----------


## bigboy67

Back muscles spasms are wayyyyy better now that I bounced down my AI dose to .5mg EOD... Going tomorrow at lunch to go get dunked and check my BF% and diet progress over the last 4 weeks . I definitely feel leaner, and am starting to gain some vascularity in my arms, but only the dunk test will tell. 

Will make any necessary changes to my diet if needed. I am only interested in BF loss, not weight, so if I am burning muscle I may crank up the cals a little bit and cut slower, no biggy.

----------


## bigboy67

got dunked today. 

Starting I was 270 lbs, 31.48% BF, 185 lbs lean, 85 lbs fat

Now I am 239 lbs, 23.43% BF, 183 lbs lean, 56 lbs fat

Everything is going great. Will post up another update in 6 more weeks at the end of my blast as I go back to TRT levels. 

By the way, lost 6 lbs fat and gained 1 lb muscle in 3.5 weeks on my blast.

----------


## [email protected]

Congratulations on your progress man. I haven't seen this thread before and read through the whole thing. Glad you persevered through all the issues. We have to be responsible for our own health and remember the doctor works for you. I've been of TRT for 19 years and I haven't had near the issues you've had. Good job and best of luck bro.

----------


## SD421

> I would injure someone for a regimen that perfect.


As would i

----------


## bigboy67

Just as an update, since I backed my AI down to .5mg every other day on this blast, my lower back spasms, which were pretty substantial and happening all day, magically went away. Awesome. I am even thinking of moving to .5mg E3D

----------


## SD421

Congrats bigboy, so nice to hear a success story like yours.

----------


## bigboy67

man, end of my 5th week on this blast, and I can see now why guys use. holy crap, the pumps are ridiculous. Lost 1.3" off my stomach in 4 weeks, not bad. interested to see how the remaining 5 weeks of this will go

----------


## bigboy67

end of the 6th week on this blast. Feeling pretty good. The Tren adds some crazy good pumps when working out, wow. But the Tren, T3, Clen combo also means I am like a sweaty ball of hot lava all day, haha.

----------


## bass

post before and after photos  :Wink:

----------


## Bushyhead

Wow I read the entire post. All very interesting. It makes me think I would love to locate a good doctor here in the Houston area to see If I could benefit from a professional consultation. I am 48 yrs. old and think this might be exaclty what I need. If anyone knows of a good doctor in the Houston area it would be much appreciated.

----------


## bass

> Wow I read the entire post. All very interesting. It makes me think I would love to locate a good doctor here in the Houston area to see If I could benefit from a professional consultation. I am 48 yrs. old and think this might be exaclty what I need. If anyone knows of a good doctor in the Houston area it would be much appreciated.


Read the sticky Finding a Physician by Kelkel in this section.

----------


## JackG79

WoW I would def love to have a local doc like that. I have insurance through work, but can't find anyone that even knows what the acronym HRT, or TRT even mean that have a MD degree and a Rx Pad. I swear you to be an MD, you must have to have absolutley no faith in humanity. In my experience, as soon as I say I am 33.. I am on Testosterone Replac...... <interrupt...> "Why the hell is someone your age taking testosterone..." -Doctor. 

Then it is the stare of death.. like they "Caught" me doing something illegal or immoral. Obviously I am using a TRT program because I have Low Testosterone ... 

I feel like a junkie asking his doctor to discuss pain pills. ... so awkward. 

Congrats on your success, and ability to overcome all the obstacles thrown at you man. You have done great. I think I may just call it a day myself.

----------


## Bushyhead

Thanks bass,
I investigated the links in that post and for the most part the doctors I found through them want to perform surgery and implant pellets. Recurring surgery is not an option I want to consider.

----------


## bass

> Thanks bass,
> I investigated the links in that post and for the most part the doctors I found through them want to perform surgery and implant pellets. Recurring surgery is not an option I want to consider.


Yes, make sure you find a doctor that will prescribe injection, hCG and AI.

----------


## bigboy67

> post before and after photos


Don't have any "after" pics yet, havent felt good enough to worry about a picture, haha. I did snap some pics when I was 270. I will get the wife to do some pics from now and will post them up side by side for comparison

----------


## LevMyshkin

> man, end of my 5th week on this blast, and I can see now why guys use. holy crap, the pumps are ridiculous. Lost 1.3" off my stomach in 4 weeks, not bad. interested to see how the remaining 5 weeks of this will go


Congrats on your progress man. I just passed the 6 month mark since I started TRT. Best decision I've ever made for myself.

----------


## bigboy67

got dunked yesterday. BF is now at exactly 20.0%. Down from 31.9% about a year ago. Since starting this blast, i lost 17 lbs fat, and gained 5 lbs lean muscle mass. dropped 6% BF in just over 8 weeks so far..... loving it

----------


## bigboy67

Decided to go ahead and run the blast for 5 more weeks past the planned date... will make it a 15 week blast through December 17, which still isnt too long, and all my doses are pretty tame as well. i will have bloods drawn 6 weeks after the end of my cycle. still trying to figure out if this will be the best time to just come off TRT all together, have bloods drawn, and see how my body produces Test on its own now that my body will be running at a much more optimal level.

What do you guys think? My doc also noticed that i actually didnt get diagnosed as primary or secondary the first time around either. He would like to have it checked out, so maybe a double benefit. come off blast, do a real post cycle and not start up TRT, get bloods drawn to check all levels along with TSH and LH at that time...

----------


## bigboy67

I still haven't been able to wrangle the wife into snapping some pics of me with a real camera, so I just snapped a quick iphone pic. sorry for the shitty quality, but you get the point. 270 lbs, 32% BF down to 234 lbs, 20% BF.

----------


## bigboy67

good thing about tattoos is I never have to worry about anyone thinking its not a progress pic of me

----------


## bigboy67

damn, i have been bit by the sugar bug, BAD. I cant even look at a piece of chocolate or candy without eating it. Having a pregnant wife in the house has serious dietary drawbacks, haha.

----------


## bigboy67

Doc appt with my new primary care today. looks like my body is a bit out of balance, muscle to flexibility wise. Got some recommendations on specific stretches to help make my back feel better. already feels a bit better than before... doesn't hurt that my doc also does back manipulation (aka chiropractor type work)

----------


## bigboy67

Okay, FINALLY got the wife on the camera to take a real pic of me to show progress. Here ya go fellas. Pretty sure I have cracked the teens in BF% now, but maybe just barely, haha. Hoping I can hit 15% by the time my wife has our second baby at the end of March.

----------


## TennTarheel

BB, what body fat measuring method are you using along your journey? Also, sent you a PM

----------


## bigboy67

Hey Tenn, sent ya a PM back. I get hydrostatic weighed at the local hospital. I tried those crappy calipers and such in the past, but theres too much room for error and bad readings. Hydro is the only way to go for me.


In case anyone else needs the name and # for my compounded where I get my hcg , It's Central Drugs Compounding Pharmacy. Phone number is 562-691-6754

----------


## APIs

Quite a change, congrats! I'd say you're likely in the teens @ maybe 17/18? I lost touch with this thread, but why coming off TRT?

----------


## bigboy67

> Quite a change, congrats! I'd say you're likely in the teens @ maybe 17/18? I lost touch with this thread, but why coming off TRT?


I'm just not convinced that I really know how well my body will produce Test once I am in consistently good shape with a solid diet in place. People say you will just produce whatever baseline you could produce before, I'm not sold on that notion, and I just want to make sure I *really* know before a lifelong commitment. 

Plus, I convert testosterone really well, so even when my total is low, my free is still really good

----------


## bigboy67

> I'm just not convinced that I really know how well my body will produce Test once I am in consistently good shape with a solid diet in place. People say you will just produce whatever baseline you could produce before, I'm not sold on that notion, and I just want to make sure I *really* know before a lifelong commitment. 
> 
> Plus, I convert testosterone really well, so even when my total is low, my free is still really good


Also, and I am not really sure why I never thought of this before today, I have a varicocele, and after doing a bit of research I am starting to wonder if that is the real reason I have low T in the first place. Going to bring it to my doc as a follow up questions when I see him next, but honestly in no hurry, just enjoying this last 4 weeks of my blast. Being on TRT is doing on bad thing for me, mentally anyways, in that it has made me not afraid of using gear for bi-annual blasts, as I have ZERO need to worry about coming off since I am already on exogenous testosterone. Trying to trick myself into forgetting that part, haha

----------


## Kalani9976

Ive read this thread twice. Great read

----------


## Brohim

> Also, and I am not really sure why I never thought of this before today, I have a varicocele, and after doing a bit of research I am starting to wonder if that is the real reason I have low T in the first place. Going to bring it to my doc as a follow up questions when I see him next, but honestly in no hurry, just enjoying this last 4 weeks of my blast. Being on TRT is doing on bad thing for me, mentally anyways, in that it has made me not afraid of using gear for bi-annual blasts, as I have ZERO need to worry about coming off since I am already on exogenous testosterone. Trying to trick myself into forgetting that part, haha


probably the varicocele caused your TRT. Maybe try to get it fixed somehow and come off? Since you talked about coming off...

Wht compounds are you blasting right now?

----------


## bigboy67

> probably the varicocele caused your TRT. Maybe try to get it fixed somehow and come off? Since you talked about coming off...
> 
> Wht compounds are you blasting right now?


Ya, I am going to bring it up to the doc, I know they can do some microsurgery now to fix the issue. Plus I need a vasectomy anyhow, so two for one!

I am currently blasting 400mg Test (mix of cyp and E), 400mg Tren , and 600mg EQ each week, split into two doses of course (still comes out to about 3ml a shot). Been a game changer for me so far, never blasted before... I think I am going to get close to 8-10% (extremely hopeful for 10%) BF reduction in my 14 week cycle

----------


## bigboy67

If you're going to run Clen and T3, PLEASE remember to up your water intake by a good 25-30%..... I forgot to do this, and remembered when I had debilitating abdominal and leg cramps at the gym , ha , stupid ass

----------


## bigboy67

Off to the gym to apologize to my body for what it had to go through yesterday, haha. All the carbs, and booze, and sugar. Bleh, that probably cost me a few weeks progress alone. Meh, gotta be able to still enjoy things, otherwise what is the point

----------


## bigboy67

Gotta love when you binge on carbs over the holidays.... workouts are just amazing after a big carb up meal, haha. Leg day today. 

Checked a few stats today, just b/c I was curious, and I am actually at the same waist line that I was when I was in the best shape of my life, about 6 years ago, plus I am 20 lbs heavier, nice!

----------


## bigboy67

I have decided for the final month of my blast that I am going to run GH at 6iu per day, split into 3 injections, one early AM, one pre-workout, one before bed. 

I note from research that large cycles, or extensive cycling of GH, can create a situation that lessens your body's ability to generate its own GH. I have been studying IGF-1, and Sermorelin as alternatives to actual GH. Opinions?

----------


## TennTarheel

> I have decided for the final month of my blast that I am going to run GH at 6iu per day, split into 3 injections, one early AM, one pre-workout, one before bed.
> 
> I note from research that large cycles, or extensive cycling of GH, can create a situation that lessens your body's ability to generate its own GH. I have been studying IGF-1, and Sermorelin as alternatives to actual GH. Opinions?


You're planning on running the GH longer than just a month though right?

----------


## bigboy67

> You're planning on running the GH longer than just a month though right?


Oh ya, I have been running GH since the third week of September., and will be running through mid-december, so about a solid 3 months of GH therapy

----------


## bigboy67

set my appointment for hydrostatic bodyfat testing..... D-day is 12/21/12.... Hoping I am close to around 17% BF.... Would be almost half the BF I had a little over a year ago.... Hoping anyways, haha, was 20% last time around, and definitely thinner, more vascular, etc. but not quite sold I will be at the 17% mark. Gonna have to be real strict on my diet, crank my workouts hard, and get 8-10 hours sleep a night and do my damndest to hit that mark

----------


## 38onTRT

Huge congrats on the transformation. Subbed.

----------


## bigboy67

Got some progress pics from start of TRT to today

----------


## redhawk01

Good job, keep it up.

----------


## bigboy67

Since my blast ended at the end of last week, I actually decided to move to SubQ Test injections versus IM from now on....I will now be going with 50mg SubQ twice per week... no AI, since I am hyper sensitive to AI's...will be getting bloods done in February (figured I would give myself a good long time after blasting and restarting TRT so I don't catch my levels in flux)

----------


## bigboy67

Got hydro weighed, and I lost another 7 lbs fat and gained 7 lbs lean on the last 6 weeks

Overall pretty damned happy with my blast. Official end of cycle results.... Lost 24 lbs fat and gained 12 lbs lean in 14 weeks

I now stand at 17.1% bodyfat, lowest of my life, down from 31.9% 14 months ago. Overall gaining 9 lbs muscle and losing 45 lb fat during those 14 months

----------


## Soar

> Got hydro weighed, and I lost another 7 lbs fat and gained 7 lbs lean on the last 6 weeks
> 
> Overall pretty damned happy with my blast. Official end of cycle results.... Lost 24 lbs fat and gained 12 lbs lean in 14 weeks
> 
> I now stand at 17.1% bodyfat, lowest of my life, down from 31.9% 14 months ago. Overall gaining 9 lbs muscle and losing 45 lb fat during those 14 months


Sounds like things are looking up! Keep at er man

----------


## reporich

Great job!

----------


## bigboy67

Hey fellas.... Any of you have good recipes for sweets that are semi-good for you? My sweet tooth is out of fricken control, and I need to just make something myself that I can eat without fear of ballooning up over the holidays.

----------


## Brohim

> Hey fellas.... Any of you have good recipes for sweets that are semi-good for you? My sweet tooth is out of fricken control, and I need to just make something myself that I can eat without fear of ballooning up over the holidays.


take some bananas and smash them on a plate with a fork. Put in freezer and let it get cold. Drizzle honey and add blueberries on top.

----------


## bigboy67

Haha, I was on the news tonight, ridiculous but true. Of course, they cut out the part where I talked about getting my hormones balanced, but whatevs...

http://www.kgw.com/lifestyle/Underwa...186396381.html

----------


## bigboy67

Hey fellas, been on SubQ for about 3 months now. just got my bloods back. all in all, pretty happy. my total and free numbers have dropped a bit, BUT, i have totally removed my AI and my E2 is sticking right at 30 which is my sweet spot. I think i will stick with SubQ, though I may move to 60mg 2x per week instead of 50


OLD PROTOCOL

Test cyp 80 mg every wednesday IM
anastrazole 0.5mg every wednesday, friday, sunday
hcg 300iu every sunday and monday

Total Test 776 [250-1100 ]
Free Test 185.5 [35.0-155.0 ]
E2 {{undetectable}} [< or = 39 ]

NEW PROTOCOL

Test cyp 50 mg 2x per week SubQ
zero hcg or anastrazole

Total Test 499 [348-1197 ng/dL]
Free Test 18.8 [8.7-25.1 pg/mL]
E2 {32.3} [7-42 pg/mL]

----------


## HRTstudent

sounds great, when did you get the blood drawn in relation to shots?

why did you drop out the HCG ?

and congrats on being able to drop the AI!! Quite a nice thing I must imagine!

----------


## VTX1800

Great thread man, I really enjoyed reading it through. I'm 4 weeks in on TRT at 29 years old.

----------


## junk2222yard

> Hey fellas, been on SubQ for about 3 months now. just got my bloods back. all in all, pretty happy. my total and free numbers have dropped a bit, BUT, i have totally removed my AI and my E2 is sticking right at 30 which is my sweet spot.


Looks like you also got rid of the hCG ? Aren't you paying the price, with shrinking nuts?

I can see wanting to back off the AI, but why drop the hCG?

Congrats on your progress! Great success story.

----------


## bigboy67

> Looks like you also got rid of the hCG ? Aren't you paying the price, with shrinking nuts?
> 
> I can see wanting to back off the AI, but why drop the hCG?
> 
> Congrats on your progress! Great success story.


A couple reasons. 1 is cost, shit is expensive. 2 is I wanted to see what difference I noted in how I felt/nut shrinkage. 3 is that I wanted a baseline of testosterone only... I'll likely add hcg back in after my next blast, so when I get bloods drawn next ill be able to see what hcg adds to actual testosterone levels

----------


## bigboy67

Oh. And I honestly also don't care if my balls shrink up. Done having kids, second will be born any day now. Getting a vasectomy as well in about 3 weeks

----------


## bigboy67

> sounds great, when did you get the blood drawn in relation to shots?
> 
> why did you drop out the HCG ?
> 
> and congrats on being able to drop the AI!! Quite a nice thing I must imagine!


I always get bloods drawn at the trough, so each time it was literally a few hours before I took my next injection. Love having no AI, I just save them up now for blasting purposes

----------

