# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Dr. Crisler Interview on SQ Testosterone Injections

## steroid.com 1

Fellows - On Feb. 7th Dr. Crisler was interviewed by Carol Lanore on his Internet radio show Super Human Radio. Crisler has been interviewed by Lanore many times the past few years (see all interviews on the link below) and I find them all extremely interesting and another way to build knowledge.

You will hear Crisler speak to SQ vs IM testosterone injections by following the first link titled "*Sub Q Injections: How, Where and How Much*" on the link below. You will also see Crisler's other links to past interviews some of which are rich in learning as you will hear the insights of one of the leading Physician's in TRT. Make sure to close the space between the . and com when you past into your browser.

There are 3 interviews on this show and Crisler is the 2nd of the three so you might want to FF. 



Crisler finally "gives in" to Shippen's pushing him to testing SQ with his patients. He also states clearly that there is no concrete studies on the effectiveness of SQ vs. IM especially not knowing half life via SQ.

Overall, he doesn't really see any significant issues, however, and admits to the smother levels vs the spikes "zig-zag" we see with IM and thinks SQ may be on the cutting edge of injections. 

He'll even give you his injection protocol as well but what I found interesting is he recommends that a man not inject more then 40 mg at one time...which makes sense as SQ should be a more frequent injection cycle vs IM. 

Enjoy my friends!

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## bass

ahhhhhh, finally from the horses month! so for us who take 120 mgs per week should we inject 3 times a week SQ? they really need to do an official study and make it final. good post as usual GD, i think this should be sticky at least until SQ becomes mainstream. Thanks!

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## steroid.com 1

> ahhhhhh, finally from the horses month! so for us who take 120 mgs per week should we inject 3 times a week SQ? they really need to do an official study and make it final. good post as usual GD, i think this should be sticky at least until SQ becomes mainstream. Thanks!


Yes bass, with SQ he likes smaller doses more frequently like an EOD schedule which would be ideal.

Crisler likes it if for no other reason then a man not needing to puncture his muscles thousands of times.

It's an interesting interview and I think helps to some extent clear the smoke a bit on the subject.

Finally, Dr. Shippen has been a huge advocate of SQ for many years and he ain't chopped liver :Wink:

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## kelkel

I'm on it! Thanks GD!

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## PetrX

This is great news for me ! =]

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## bass

come to think of it, you can do it EOD between your hCG and Test shots, basically you do hCG one day and the next day you do Test and so on! think of the 48 hour peak, your test levels will be allot more stable! hmmmmm!

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## steroid.com 1

> I'm on it! Thanks GD!


Kel, he talks to so many other things in his interview with Lanore it's really great.

Listen to his discussion on the use of needles and syringes and the wast of Testosterone and how it adds up over time...really interesting.

And he still likes gels do to the consistent levels and uptake...but doesn't talk to poor absorbers.

Thinks SQ is an odd injection compared to IM...

Just a ton of good shit.

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## steroid.com 1

> come to think of it, you can do it EOD between your hCG and Test shots, basically you do hCG one day and the next day you do Test and so on! think of the 48 hour peak, your test levels will be allot more stable! hmmmmm!


That's EXACTLY what I was thinking b :Smilie:

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## ecdysone

Thanks gd, always interesting. Good to see Dr. John finally catching up with everyone else regards SQ.

Just as a point of clarification, he doesn't like his guys injecting 0.5 cc SQ unless they split it into two doses but admits he doesn't scientifically understand the process, nor did I hear him recommend more than twice per week injections.

Actually, I always liked Lanore's candid conversation more than that of his guests!

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## ecdysone

> your test levels will be allot more stable! hmmmmm!


 Yes, but here's the "ringer": how do you know that's a better way of administering test? For example, the studies with sublingual test showed peak levels into the low thousands, with a "half-life" of just a few hours, yet this route seems to produce good responses. Might just be your body needs that spike for the desired effects to take place.

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## bass

who cares about the spikes or effects as long as your free T is stable and in the high normal range. i take 120 mgs split into 2 shots per week and my free T was above normal while my total T was 550 or so! maybe the spikes have other benefits who knows! our bodies produce testosterone continuously, not 1, 2 or 3 times a week, so logically it seems that if we administer more frequent we are mimicking our bodies production (GD's famous words). remember we're talking only 30-40 mgs per shot three times a week.

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## ecdysone

Well hell then...why not just do an IV drip?  :Smilie:

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## --->>405<<---

i must just be an idiot but i dont see anything on there about crisler or an interview or super human radio???????

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## JD250

Does he speak to the reason he recommends such low doses for sub Q, there are implications with no evidence, not to say he doesn't know what he's talking about but I like evidence and reasoning.....I've injected 200 mgs/ 1cc per SQ injection and could feel no difference.....why is it bad?

My understanding of the peaks and valleys is probably somewhat simplistic but isn't there a corresponding rise and fall of dopamine?

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## jamotech

I liked his reference to dumping the oil cans in the garbage bag! Even though he's on board with SQ he brings up that there is no understanding of the half times, ect, and did sound fairly skeptical of the whole SQ usage before he brought up the fact that pinning your muscle 1000 in a decade is crazy. 

The test solution everyone uses is the same for IM or SQ, since muscle is different than fat id think the solution would be different for each. Id think a higher concentration solution would be better for SQ, it must hurt less, no nerves in fat, and maybe less of a ball of oil under the skin that I keep hearing about. Im sure once I get dialed in ill try it, mostly because if your gonna pin your muscle 2x a week its just not good in the long run.

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## jamotech

if SQ has a smoother release which is probably also a slower release, I wouldnt think increasing dosage frequency is going to help anything?

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## Herman Munster

Im having a hard time agreeing with the portion of the argument against IM because of the pinning of the muscle multiple times. I assume this is directed for those who administer to the same muscle or general area at each injection? I rotate through delts to quads; I am every 5 days, by the time I return to my left delt 20 days have passed. This is not adequate time for muscle to heal the hole a 25ga needle created? Even at 2x a week, 2 weeks would pass before the next injection, what is the duration required for adequate healing of the site?

BASS - Are you currently SubQ? Have you been IM in the past or has anyone (long time TRT'ers) been both and tested at each, curious to know your SubQ vs. IM results.

Thanks

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## HRTstudent

> if SQ has a smoother release which is probably also a slower release, I wouldnt think increasing dosage frequency is going to help anything?


Crisler points out that there simply aren't any studies done on the pharmacokinetics of subq testosterone . So it's really just conjecture but ultimately it seems like Crisler still uses IM as his bread and butter compared to SQ.

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## JohnnyVegas

I'm confused. Of course levels are more stable when you inject EOD. But that defeats the purpose of a long ester. If I am going to inject EOD I might as well use Prop. This seems to be headed in the wrong direction to me.

Yes, I know that injecting SQ is easier so EOD wouldn't be as bad as EOD IM, but I don't have a problem injecting.

And just how stable do we need our levels to be? I feel just as good injecting Cyp twice a week as I do Prop every day. I think we are starting to solve problems that don't actually exist. 

If it is better simply because it is easier...then I get it.

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## bass

i believe spikes is what creates e2 conversion, and SQ seems to minimize it, at least according to that Canadian study posted by GD. so even smaller injection EOD seems to make sense in terms of creating less e2 conversion, less AI, less stress on the liver and lipid! in fact i am willing to be a guinea pig and try it without AI (or less AI) for 4 weeks then do blood work to see how it works!

Herman, yes i do SQ and IM injections depending on my mood, but when i was on SQ exclusively my blood work came back with free T at above normal, and my total at about 550. i was on 60 mgs twice a week, very nice results!

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## steroid.com 1

I am sorry fellows but it appears, at least to me, that the link to the page where you can find the interview has been removed from my original post.

This is a very unfortunate turn of events and totally counter to what we are all here for (I may have to rethink my membership here).

My sincere apologies; my intentions were only good for you all and nothing more.

PS. I think you can figure out how to Google the interview of Feb 7th. 

gd

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## bass

> I am sorry fellows but it appears, at least to me, that the link to the page where you can find the interview has been removed from my original post.
> 
> This is a very unfortunate turn of events and totally counter to what we are all here for (*I may have to rethink my membership here*).
> 
> My sincere apologies; my intentions were only good for you all and nothing more.
> 
> PS. I think you can figure out how to Google the interview of Feb 7th. 
> 
> gd


i hope not GD, you are a great asset not only to us in this section but to this site! i am sure there is a reason, but whomever edited your post should have at least explained why!

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## steroid.com 1

> i hope not GD, you are a great asset not only to us in this section but to this site! i am sure there is a reason, but whomever edited your post should have at least explained why!


It's a privately owned site and the owners can do as they please...I get that...but it borders on Internet Censorship to me especially when content of a very relevant and timely nature that can improve a mans health and well being is eliminated for any reason is problematic to me and counter to my membership and dedication to this forum. 

The core of this entire forum is dedicated to the passing of information and knowledge for the health and well being of ALL members and eliminating sources of validated information that can be a significant benefit to a members health *for any reason* just isn't right in my book. 

Why waste my time anymore???

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## keep fightin

GD! you can loose a battle and win the war, don't even think your wasting your time.I joined this site because of you and several other great vets, please continue to share. Why did the link go into the black hole? some one should explain. I'm getting all choked up, good thing my 60mg SQ inject is tomorrow morning!

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## lovbyts

When I did almost 1cc I got a lump and it was sore for a good week. When I cut it down to 1/2cc everything was fine. Some people seem to be ok with more but I would rather do it 2x a week if need be.

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## APIs

> I'm confused. Of course levels are more stable when you inject EOD. But that defeats the purpose of a long ester. If I am going to inject EOD I might as well use Prop. This seems to be headed in the wrong direction to me.
> 
> Yes, I know that injecting SQ is easier so EOD wouldn't be as bad as EOD IM, but I don't have a problem injecting.
> 
> And just how stable do we need our levels to be? I feel just as good injecting Cyp twice a week as I do Prop every day. I think we are starting to solve problems that don't actually exist. 
> 
> If it is better simply because it is easier...then I get it.


x2. Especially *"the solving problems that just don't exist*." I mean if you like SQ then fine, that's great & nothing is wrong with that. I just don't see the research that validates its true effectiveness over IM & I feel there's more Bro-Science going on here than a presentation of hard facts to back it up. Unless, I am truly missing the data that exists on the subject? Me personally, IM is simply more convenient 2xweek with my hectic schedule than SQ EOD and I too feel great. I would hate to see people questioning their IM Protocol over this when in reality it's not warranted. 

BTW, Gdevine I see why you're upset. Seems to be some large Egos at work here thinking they can alter threads like this without explanation... :Aajack:  The effort & dedication that's put in here deserves better than that. Just remember, we're a great community here & we *all* can continue to help one another at different venues if need be.

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## bullshark99

Agree above with API, I go IM just once a week, personally I do not feel the peaks and valleys. I feel good day 6 as I do day 2 in general. I do NOT like the "shot" although painless and never had a problem, hitting the nerve although probability next to non-existant if you hit the right area still messes with me alitle in the head (mind games). Sub Q is intriguing, but once a week is convenient for me anyhow.

GD, feel your frusration, you are an asset here, make no mistake about it! Please re-think your decision to move on.

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## JD250

Don't drop out just yet GD, I totally understand your frustration, I've posed the same questions and concerns on this board too, stick with us and lets see if we can work with Admin and find a way to get the info we need on the board without a direct link. I know it seems like BS but on a board this size I do understand the direct link rule, not only would it be impossible to keep on top of all of them but right at this time direct links can also be a legal issue although i suspect this one is a sponsor issue considering the advertisements during the interviews. None of that matters anyways, what does matter is that we ALL work with Admin and find out how we can conduct business within the guidelines, as much as they suck we still need to follow them and we need YOU to stay and keep helping us. And not you alone but there are several folks on this forum that deserve a big thank you and we don't want to lose any of you. 

Let's talk with admin and see how we can get our info posted without problems, there must be a way. At least if we knew EXACTLY WHY, we could approach it from a different angle maybe.

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## JD250

The Canadian research DOES seam to show less e2 conversion, EOD??.....I'm gonna pass on it for right now but if it can be done with no AI. Why not? I'm kinda thinking like Bass, as soon as I'm done with my Deca I will switch back to a sub Q and maybe try it with no AI and see how it goes.

However I will say this, if there is no appreciable difference in e2 conversion I will still do SQ once a week just because it's easy, cheap and painless.

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## kelkel

> Well hell then...why not just do an IV drip?


Good one! Maybe a thigh pump!

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## ecdysone

> The Canadian research DOES seam to show less e2 conversion, EOD??


See, now that I would doubt. From what I've read, E2 production pretty much tracks test concentration. High peak test levels, then high peak E2 levels. However it's the AUC (an integrated concentration vs. time) that will likely determine what effects are experienced. It's not as though E2 production cascades at a certain level of test, but is produced at all levels. It's important as a feedback chemical in the HPTA axis.

I believe Dr. John feels there is an inflammatory response to higher volumes of test oil when injected SQ, so he's advocating injecting 0.25cc or less. I've personally had severe inflammatory pockets formed when trying anything >0.75 cc, but nothing if less.

The great mystery is why no one has performed a peer-reviewed study of SQ injections of test oils.

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## kelkel

GD what if you just edited your post and "explained" where to go without inserting the link to avoid issues?

Also. Your not allowed to leave. A lot of us are here due to you and others like you (you know who you are.) This is a small hurdle which we can overcome!

ps: I know where you live......

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## bullshark99

Forgot about that KelKel, I got him tracked down to about a 1 mile radious!! LOL

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## gearbox

The spike of e2 makes sense to me after reading everything and would love to see the results of a member running this for trial and error purposes

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## bass

its been stated before and i agree that most doctors are hesitant to prescribe SQ probably for liability reasons more than anything else, not enough scientific support and not being approved by FDA makes it risky practice!

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## JohnnyVegas

Any word on why the original post was edited to delete the link? I know that links are pretty much not allowed, but when posts get edited the mod usually leaves a big, red message saying why the edit happened.

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## ecdysone

If you consider that virtually all of the FDA approved test preparations call for IM injection of the oil every 2+ weeks then there isn't ANY wiggle-room for a typical doc.

Here's the interesting part: having looked at the literature on the use of oil depot drugs (and btw, there are many outside the realm of TRT) it makes little difference whether they are administered IM or SQ. The advantage IM has over SQ pertains mostly to non-oil depot routes. The only other advantage is for larger volumes. Anything over 1-2 cc needs to go the IM route.

Otherwise, it appears IM = SQ in every pharmacokinetic parameter studied. The rate limiting step (the one that determines the half-life) is the diffusion from the oil into the surrounding tissue and that is roughly the same for IM or SQ tissues. The volume of oil given has an effect, but it's the same for both (larger volumes increase the half life). The rate at which the oil is finally absorbed has a small effect, but it is the same for both tissues anyway. 

So like bass said, it's just the reluctance of docs to try new approaches, because the science clearly shows the two routes are the same.

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## SEOINAGE

I dunno my leg sure is sore for a day or so after injection, would like to eliminate that.

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## kelkel

> GD! you can loose a battle and win the war, don't even think your wasting your time.I joined this site because of you and several other great vets, please continue to share. Why did the link go into the black hole? some one should explain. *I'm getting all choked up,* good thing my 60mg SQ inject is tomorrow morning!


Keep Fighting you might want to check your E2 level! HA!

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## HRTstudent

> I dunno my leg sure is sore for a day or so after injection, would like to eliminate that.


Is that from quad or glute?

Because Dr Crisler is quite anti-quad shots. He mentioned/hinted this a couple times now.

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## steroid.com 1

> GD what if you just edited your post and "explained" where to go without inserting the link to avoid issues?
> 
> Also. Your not allowed to leave. A lot of us are here due to you and others like you (you know who you are.) This is a small hurdle which we can overcome!
> 
> ps: I know where you live......


First, let me say a huge heartfelt *Thank You* to all my brothers here for the kind and caring words...it's why I call this place home and nowhere else.

I was just hurt that a link like the one posted here would be deleted without any explanation...it was so beneficial on so many levels. 

I, like many of you, put a lot of personal time and effort into our posts all for the benefit of our members and I just got pissed off...but I am better now.

I think most guys here know how to find Crisler's interview with Lanore anyway.

Thanks guys for everything, trust me when I say I greatly appreciate it and more importantly your friendship :Smilie: 

Peace. 

gd

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## bass

glad its over with! now that we put all that behind us, what are your thoughts of what was discussed regarding the theory of EOD, less conversion and so forth?

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## steroid.com 1

> glad its over with! now that we put all that behind us, what are your thoughts of what was discussed regarding the theory of EOD, less conversion and so forth?


b - I have held the belief for some time now that the closer we can get to our own bodies natural biological processes the better. SubQ injections more frequently like EOD (both Test and hCG alternate days) could possibly eliminate the need for an AI...this is exactly what Crisler stated in his conversation with Lanore. He likes anything that can get men away from taking drugs like an AI.

I've had this same conversation with my Physician and he completely believes in the protocol of lower doses more frequently to balance control all hormonal levels on a consistent basis (getting away from the zig zag if you will). The problem here is the compliance issue of the patient to follow such a tedious protocol like this.

For most of us who are only interested in getting to the land of TRT Valhalla it's not a problem; but for many men it's just too much and they won't follow the protocol correctly where a once a week injection of Test and two of hCG is pretty easy to follow.

Listen to Crisler speak to this as it's very interesting and one that I adhere to as well.

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## bass

> b - I have held the belief for some time now that the closer we can get to our own bodies natural biological processes the better. SubQ injections more frequently like EOD (both Test and hCG alternate days) could possibly eliminate the need for an AI...this is exactly what Crisler stated in his conversation with Lanore. He likes anything that can get men away from taking drugs like an AI.
> 
> I've had this same conversation with my Physician and he completely believes in the protocol of lower doses more frequently to balance control all hormonal levels on a consistent basis (getting away from the zig zag if you will). The problem here is the compliance issue of the patient to follow such a tedious protocol like this.
> 
> For most of us who are only interested in getting to the land of TRT Valhalla it's not a problem; but for many men it's just too much and they won't follow the protocol correctly where a once a week injection of Test and two of hCG is pretty easy to follow.
> 
> Listen to Crisler speak to this as it's very interesting and one that I adhere to as well.


it really makes sense!

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## JohnnyVegas

Once again, I have forgotten that my case is not like everyone else's. I have no problem with my levels and don't require an AI as it is...even on 200mg/wk.

It makes sense to do more frequent injections if it means avoiding taking another drug, and doing them SQ would definitely be easier than IM.

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## bass

i been PMing Kel regarding cold hand, pain in the finger joints and dry looking skin! the reason i asked Kel because he is struggling with low e2 and thought maybe he's experiencing the same thing i am, i am suspecting I've crashed my e2 since i switched to SQ. Kel responded with other symptoms that low e2 could cause and i been experiencing most of them. i am a big e2 converter, but i really think i am not converting as much since i started SQ. so i am doing blood work soon to see what the heck is going on, and i am totally cutting AI until i see my blood work, and see if my condition will improve.

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## JD250

Keep us posted Bass....nothing would please me more than to be able to cut back drastically or completely eliminate AI

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## ecdysone

> It makes sense to do more frequent injections if it means avoiding taking another drug, and doing them SQ would definitely be easier than IM.


I think that's the key. 

HCG is one thing (a natural component) but AI's... not only off label use (really meant for women), but long-term effects - and by that I'm referring to decades of use, are totally unknown.

In a cost-benefit scenario, might actually be better to live with the high E2 than develop an issue from the AI's.

Compliance is the other major issue, and while for many on this forum it may seem a small deal - trust me it is probably the number one issue with most patients.

JV you're a real outlier when it comes to test metabolism, but one hell of a lucky guy because of genetics!

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## Vettester

> Let's talk with admin and see how we can get our info posted without problems, there must be a way. At least if we knew EXACTLY WHY, we could approach it from a different angle maybe.


I have been in contact with Admin on this subject. For now, the rules stand as they are, we can't post links to clinics and other forums. I know a few myself that I would enjoy talking about and sharing with other members, but it's just the platform we have set.

Gdevine, I understand your frustration, I don't think anyone meant you any disrespect, I'm sure Admin had several things on the plate when this happened.

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## kelkel

JV what does your E2 level run at on a consistent basis?

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## steroid.com 1

[QUOTE=ecdysone;5900650]I think that's the key. 

In a cost-benefit scenario, might actually be better to live with the high E2 than develop an issue from the AI's.[QUOTE]

Don't know about this e; high sustained E2 levels are insidious and are a major cause of certain malignancies in men notwithstanding cardiovascular diseases.

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## dfwo

for you guys that are doing subq, are you injecting a smaller amount?

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## ecdysone

[QUOTE=gdevine;5900680]


> Don't know about this e; high sustained E2 levels are insidious and are a major cause of certain malignancies in men notwithstanding cardiovascular diseases.


Never heard this before... any studies? 

Unless you're referring to metabolic syndrome which is whole different beast.

But you understand were I'm coming from?... artificially controlling E2 [because we are/maybe over administering test] is not natural and using yet another drug to do so, could literally be a killer.

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## --->>405<<---

good video GD  :Smilie:  i finally found it thru google.. very interesting.. am thinking of doing sub q at some point.. 40mg at a time max would put me EOD.. which is fine actually.. my hcg shot is nothing.. i kind of enjoy giving myself the injections.. i guess im a sicko LOL ... mainly cuz i know what its doing for me.. and the 1000 holes in my leg thing has me thinking too.. i know crisler mentioned the stomach for sq injects but do yall think itd have the same effects no matter where u shoot it ? as long as u can pinch some fat?

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## steroid.com 1

> I have been in contact with Admin on this subject. For now, the rules stand as they are, we can't post links to clinics and other forums. I know a few myself that I would enjoy talking about and sharing with other members, but it's just the platform we have set.
> 
> Gdevine, I understand your frustration, I don't think anyone meant you any disrespect, I'm sure Admin had several things on the plate when this happened.


Thanks Vette I understand...just frustrated for the guys. 

Appreciate the help very much.

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## vinceproduction

> good video GD  i finally found it thru google.. very interesting.. am thinking of doing sub q at some point.. 40mg at a time max would put me EOD.. which is fine actually.. my hcg shot is nothing.. i kind of enjoy giving myself the injections.. i guess im a sicko LOL ... mainly cuz i know what its doing for me.. and the 1000 holes in my leg thing has me thinking too.. i know crisler mentioned the stomach for sq injects but do yall think itd have the same effects no matter where u shoot it ? as long as u can pinch some fat?


Lol I thought I was strange for actually enjoying giving myself the hcg sub q injections! Good to know I'm not alone. I actually look forward to my weekly cyp IM injections though too! So maybe I am weird... Lol

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## steroid.com 1

[QUOTE=ecdysone;5900691]


> Never heard this before... any studies? 
> 
> Unless you're referring to metabolic syndrome which is whole different beast.
> 
> But you understand were I'm coming from?... artificially controlling E2 [because we are/maybe over administering test] is not natural and using yet another drug to do so, could literally be a killer.


e - This from LEF:
When we started offering comprehensive blood test panels back in 1996, men did not understand why we were checking their estrogen levels. Back in those days, estrogen was considered a hormone of importance only to women. 

We tested estrogen based on published data indicating that when estrogen levels are unbalanced, the risk of degenerative disease in aging men skyrockets.1-7 Of concern to us 14 years ago were reports showing that excess estrogen contributes to the development of atherosclerosis.8,9 Human clinical studies conducted more than a decade later confirmed our suspicions. Men with even slightly elevated estrogen levels doubled their risk of stroke and had far higher incidences of coronary artery disease.10-12 Our early observations also revealed that men presenting with benign prostate enlargement or prostate cancer had higher blood estrogen levels (and often low free testosterone blood levels).13-16 Subsequent clinical studies help confirm our early observations.17-21

Insufficient estrogen, on the other hand, predisposes men to osteoporosis and bone fracture.22,23

The fact that 99% of men today have no idea what their blood estrogen levels are helps explain the epidemic of age-related disease that is bankrupting this nation’s medical system. 

Here's a link to the entire article e: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/...rogen%20levels

I am going to start a new link referencing this article; it's really good information for the guys and a bit eye opening as well. 

Plus, who wants higher levels of E2 anyway...just converts more free T and I don't want that for sure :Wink:

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## kelkel

Yes dfwo. It's taking the weekly dose and splitting it in half and injecting every 3.5 days. 





> for you guys that are doing subq, are you injecting a smaller amount?

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## Herman Munster

Kel and other SubQ injectors,

What size needles (length/gauge), obviously an insulin needle? 

_Maybe a stupid question, can you also load HCG w/ the test? Does that defeat the purpose of the HCG?_ 


Thanks

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## Vettester

> Kel and other SubQ injectors,
> 
> What size needles (length/gauge), obviously an insulin needle? 
> 
> _Maybe a stupid question, can you also load HCG w/ the test? Does that defeat the purpose of the HCG?_ 
> 
> 
> Thanks


Herman, for me I like 31g x 5/16". Keep your cyp and hcg shots separate. However, the cyp will stack well with a little B12 if you're so inclined.

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## dfwo

> Herman, for me I like 31g x 5/16". Keep your cyp and hcg shots separate. However, the cyp will stack well with a little B12 if you're so inclined.


basically an insulin pin?

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## JD250

> I think that's the key. 
> but AI's... not only off label use (really meant for women), but long-term effects - and by that I'm referring to decades of use, are totally unknown.
> 
> In a cost-benefit scenario, might actually be better to live with the high E2 than develop an issue from the AI's.
> 
> Compliance is the other major issue, and while for many on this forum it may seem a small deal - trust me it is probably the number one issue with most patients.



AIs weren't made for women they were made to inhibit the enzyme, the side effects for women are very few and mild and considering the much lower doses that we take I would say it's a much safer alternative than high e2 which has been proven through years of studies to be deadly.....of course your death will be labeled as something else but you'll be dead nonetheless.


What do you mean when you say "compliance is a major issue"?

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## keep fightin

went SQ with T 1 month ago 3xHCG,.5 adex twice per week felt great at first then noticed my knees bugging me then my lower back, began feeling run down in afternoon, left elbow aching then libido dropping! noooooo!!!! bw still two weeks out but how did I not suspect crashed E?, I'm thinking I should ether cut back my adex right now or keep to current protocol and get bw sooner?

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## lovbyts

Sounds about right, stop the adex. It may only take a few days to rebound.

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## ecdysone

GD - I'm aware of the LEF study and several others like it.

This exactly shows the difficulty of taking epidemiological studies and using them to prove a point without factoring in all the variables.

The problem with correlating E2 to morbidity is that is also correlates with Metabolic Syndrome (high body fat, diabetes, etc.).

There is a strong correlation between E2 and BMI and therefore morbidity/mortality in a random aging population.

The study I want to see is one where men with normal BMI, and supplemental testosterone show any risks whatsoever from high E2 levels.

I'm saying that guys like us who watch their weight, eat healthy, exercise and take test don't have the epidemiological risk that the general aging population does with elevated E2.

----------


## ecdysone

> What do you mean when you say "compliance is a major issue"?


When you design a dosing regime, the most important consideration is whether a patient will follow it or not. For us on this forum, that may not be an issue today, but after a few decades who is to say? 

Good technique is to dose at the half-life (there are exceptions) so you get maximum compliance vs. drug efficiency.

----------


## ecdysone

Just for interest I plotted out some dosing schedules for test-cyp [concentration vs. days]

Every 2 weeks

 

Every 7 days:



Every 3.5 days:



Every 2 days:



So I think you can see there is not much advantage dosing at less than 3.5 days

----------


## flatscat

For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.

Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...

----------


## bass

> went SQ with T 1 month ago 3xHCG,.5 adex twice per week felt great at first then noticed my knees bugging me then my lower back, began feeling run down in afternoon, left elbow aching then libido dropping! noooooo!!!! bw still two weeks out but how did I not suspect crashed E?, I'm thinking I should ether cut back my adex right now or keep to current protocol and get bw sooner?


Same scenario here KF!

----------


## APIs

> Just for interest I plotted out some dosing schedules for test-cyp [concentration vs. days]
> 
> Every 2 weeks
> 
>  
> 
> Every 7 days:
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting if indeed accurate. Wow, that 2 week interval looks brutal to deal with and in-line with what people on it have reported lol...

----------


## APIs

> For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.
> 
> Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...


I'd say this post hits the nail on the head...

----------


## steroid.com 1

> For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.
> 
> Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...


Sooo totally agree.

Advanced protocols are NOT for newbies and they should follow your advise exactly Flats compliance concerns notwithstanding.

----------


## JohnnyVegas

> For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.
> 
> Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...


Totally agree. Actually, I am still keeping it simple and won't change unless there is a clear, major benefit to doing it another way.

----------


## keep fightin

agree with Flats, KISS is good, but the devil is in the details, for instance as edcysone showed with the T graph dosing on the half life makes sense. how now do we work in our adex? on T1xew IM and .5adex 2xew I felt dialed in then after 6 month's or so could feel the lag about day 5, switched to T2xew SQ and .5adex 2xew and just sunk after a few weeks, goin with lovbyts and staying off adex for a few days at least, tough to figure out how to approach my next BW

----------


## bass

the problem is clinics will prescribe AAS cycles in stead of a proper treatment, so following their protocols is not necessary a good thing. i remember when i was a newbie i posted my starting protocol and the first guy jumped on me was Flats, he suggested that i back off of three major meds, Deca , Anavar and B12, and only take testosterone and AI, of course being a newbie i trusted the clinic and a month later i felt like i was going to explode, way too many meds with high doses in a starting TRT. i just wish i took Flats advice and didn't have to go through that roller coaster.

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## APIs

> I'm saying that guys like us who watch their weight, eat healthy, exercise and take test don't have the epidemiological risk that the general aging population does with elevated E2.


Bingo! From where I'm sitting today, I think we can over-analyze the use of a little AI vs. the larger picture at hand. I mean we truly don't know the long-term effects of using an AI to control E2 levels. However, I feel pretty safe using 1.5 mgs Anastrazole per week when compared to the morbidly-obese guy standing next to me at the gym that will never even be aware of or treat his high E2 levels over the coming decades. IMO, I'm more likely to suffer from my intake of Table Salt than from the use of an AI. Just my thoughts...I hope I'm right  :Icon Rolleyes: .

----------


## FONZY007

Ive been doing SQ injections for the last 8 weeks, I see the doctor in about 3 weeks I will discontinue my AI maybe next week and see where everything g stands and post up for everyone to see. 

To make clear I'm on trt and inject 60mgs twice a week and do feel better than injecting 120mgs once a week

----------


## JohnnyVegas

I cannot wait until blood work starts coming in from you guys that have switched to SQ.

----------


## Herman Munster

> For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.
> 
> Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...






For me; the KISS method would also include the full process. So, to switch from an IM to SubQ would eliminate a set of different gear. I could be using the same size syringe/needle as I am w/ HCG . At .5ml Every 5th day, following Dr. John (assuming I have the up to date protocol) injecting HCG 2 days prior and 1 day prior to test cyp would be very simple.

----------


## bass

> I cannot wait until blood work starts coming in from you guys that have switched to SQ.


have you seen mine? at 60mgs twice a weeks my total was 539 and my free T was above normal.

----------


## kelkel

Boy they'd have to pay handsomely to find guinie pigs for that one!







> GD - I'm aware of the LEF study and several others like it.
> 
> This exactly shows the difficulty of taking epidemiological studies and using them to prove a point without factoring in all the variables.
> 
> The problem with correlating E2 to morbidity is that is also correlates with Metabolic Syndrome (high body fat, diabetes, etc.).
> 
> There is a strong correlation between E2 and BMI and therefore morbidity/mortality in a random aging population.
> 
> The study I want to see is one where men with normal BMI, and supplemental testosterone show any risks whatsoever from high E2 levels.
> ...

----------


## bass

> Boy they'd have to pay handsomely to find guinie pigs for that one!


LOL! i can just picture it, TRTers walking with hanging tits! it just ain't pretty! no thanks!

----------


## JohnnyVegas

> have you seen mine? at 60mgs twice a weeks my total was 539 and my free T was above normal.


I remember that. But now you think your E2 is too low, right?

I mostly meant long-term results. I am very interested to see how is goes for everyone after they/you sort out the issues and have blood work done a few times.

----------


## bass

yes i believe my e2 is too low.

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## APIs

> LOL! i can just picture it, TRTers walking with hanging tits! it just ain't pretty! no thanks!


LOL, this reminds me of a friend at the gym that I've mentioned here before. He's 35, newly married, big & fat, wife was bugging him to bone her constantly in order to have kids, but cried to me that he couldn’t get her pregnant & he had no interest in sex. I begged him to go & get some blood tests done because he likely had Low Test & High Estrogen among other things. So he finally did it & Bingo! His total test came back at something like 200 & E2 @ 100 or some ridiculous number. Last I heard he was seeing a fertility Dr. & Urologist & one of them said he was a candidate for TRT. Fast forward 6 months to last week I see him at the gym. He says: "Hey good news, the fertility treatments worked and my wife is pregnant with Twin Girls!" I said; "That's great, but what about your Weight, Low T & High E2?" He says; "Oh the doctors said that I'm fine and have nothing to worry about so I don't need that TRT bullshit!" Now bear in mind this guy is now 25 pounds heavier clocking in @ a Minimum 325 lbs with a pair of Moobs to match. He is morbidly obese for his frame to say the least. I politely said; "That's great buddy, you keep telling yourself that." "I'm sure you'll be fine, good luck!" 

I will never again offer to help someone personally unless they are genuine about the issue. IDK, I guess some people are not capable of handling TRT or any avenue that requires work to re-build their life...

----------


## JD250

^^^^ true APIs, I have watched a friend struggle the last year and I have mildly suggested a few times to go to the doc and get checked out , I could see what was wrong, anyways he comes back and says that the doc said he had low T so I asked to see his results and then spilled the beans about myself being on TRT.....so far I've been able to help him out a bunch.......because in his mind it was his idea to go seek help not a friend trying to convince him. Now my brother is another story, he gets a 100mg shot once a month and refuses to listen to me, I told him when he was at rock bottom I would be waiting with the info he needed.


Evdysone , I understand what your saying about e2 but you ARE throwing out hard evidence just because the subjects arent your age and exact fitness level, that seems way less accurate to me than allowing a little flex room for fitness level or BF%.........high e2 is high e2 and the results are deadly, I can appreciate your thought process but I believe your off base........if you have very high e2 you will end up as one of those overweight high BF% guys with numerous health issues, we've seen people on this board with high e2 that suffered no apparent sides they seem to be the exception and we've seen people here who quit working out and having sex and generally felt like shit because e2 was high and all that exogenous test was a waste........same boat as before they started TRT and got into shape. The question is where do we draw the line in the sand? at what level? LE seems to have set a standard at 30 for feeling well.......Im gonna stick with it and preach it to others until someone can prove that all the studies to date are indeed wrong.

Thanks for the graphs, they are very similar to some that I have used for reference in the past........the thing that really interests me is injecting smaller amounts.... even if eod is only a slight advantage over e3d I am going to try it and see if I can't reach a place where AIs could be eliminated or severely reduced, that cant be a bad thing.

----------


## GFA

Bumping this thead.  :Smilie: 

Who is doing SQ for Test shots and have blood work? I considered it, just finished my 3rd IM into the quad (painless).

IM doesnt bother me but if e2 is better managed from SQ and people have the same benefits from the T SQ, might be something to consider.

----------


## GotNoBlueMilk

I was only doing 80 mg / week total when doing twice a week subq injections. So I was injecting 40 mg each shot, subq. I was doing 0.5 mg of AI a week, total, while on that protocol. 

Now I am doing 90 mg / week total broken up into 3 shots a week, which is 30 mg each shot, subq. So I have increased my T injections, overall. The good thing is I have eliminated the AI totally! Even though I am taking more T per week, I have a lower spike so I now don't need the AI at all. Overall, I felt sooooooo much better. I can't stress how much better I feel on the three times a week protocal. Even when I was only doing 80 mg/week total (broken into 3 shots), I felt so much better than when doing twice a week shots. My only complaint now is that my libido has gone up. A 53 y/o man just shouldn't be horny all the time. Oh well, at least my wife benefits from it. That makes her happy.

----------


## GFA

Interesting. What does your blood work look like? Are you injecting into the fat in your stomach area?

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## GotNoBlueMilk

I inject into the thigh subq. Just had blood done a week ago. This was the first blood draw since switching two months ago to 3x/week. I won't see the blood results for another two weeks.

At this point I don't really care too much what the blood results are. I feel fantastic, and unless the blood comes back way too high or something, I don't really care what it says.

----------


## GFA

Can you post your bw when you get your results? Curious if subq is just as effective for raising your t and keeping e in check.

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## bass

> I was only doing 80 mg / week total when doing twice a week subq injections. So I was injecting 40 mg each shot, subq. I was doing 0.5 mg of AI a week, total, while on that protocol. 
> 
> Now I am doing 90 mg / week total broken up into 3 shots a week, which is 30 mg each shot, subq. So I have increased my T injections, overall. The good thing is I have eliminated the AI totally! Even though I am taking more T per week, I have a lower spike so I now don't need the AI at all. Overall, I felt sooooooo much better. I can't stress how much better I feel on the three times a week protocal. Even when I was only doing 80 mg/week total (broken into 3 shots), I felt so much better than when doing twice a week shots. My only complaint now is that my libido has gone up. A 53 y/o man just shouldn't be horny all the time. Oh well, at least my wife benefits from it. That makes her happy.


same here GNBM! i am injecting SQ eod test/hCG 35mgs/250iu no AI and never felt better! will be doing blood work with 2 weeks to see how this protocol is working on my levels, so we'll see.

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## GFA

What type needles are you using? 25g or smaller?

I tried loading test into a 31g .5cc needle before and it took like 10 minutes. This was my first injection, into the delt but I pushed it really hard into my shoulder so probably IM. I didnt have larger needles at the time.

Now I use 25g 1" into quad, IM.

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## FONZY007

I just did my bw and will be posting up on Monday.. As I've been doing sq injections 60mgs twice per week with no AI... I did notice when I dropped the AI I put on water weight and bloat but will wait till I get bw back

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## bass

> I just did my bw and will be posting up on Monday.. As I've been doing sq injections 60mgs twice per week with no AI... I did notice when I dropped the AI I put on water weight and bloat but will wait till I get bw back


i look forward to seeing it.

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## FONZY007

Ok did my injection on 2/28 at 60 mgs and did bw on 3/2 which I would do my other 60mgs later that day..

Im doing SQ injections also..

Didn't have free done, didn't notice till to late

Test total was 275 ng/dl. Range 132-813 ng/ml ( age adjusted)

Estradiol was 36.7 pg/ml. Range <20-56

I been off adex for three weeks I have noticed some bloat but the numbers show I'm right in the middle..also not taking any HCG 

Also doc stated to me he wanted me at 500-600 ng/ml. So 275 ng/dl is my low end so should I up it to maybe 80 mgs twice per week but I'm afraid that my E2 numbers will bump above also!! I still feel a little run down but not much was thinking of doing 50mgs, three times a week..

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## GFA

Did you inject IM in the past? If so how does SQ numbers compare? Numbers seem really low for 120mg a week.




> Ok did my injection on 2/28 at 60 mgs and did bw on 3/2 which I would do my other 60mgs later that day..
> 
> Im doing SQ injections also..
> 
> Didn't have free done, didn't notice till to late
> 
> Test total was 275 ng/dl. Range 132-813 ng/ml ( age adjusted)
> 
> Estradiol was 36.7 pg/ml. Range <20-56
> ...

----------


## bass

whats more important is how do you feel. i bet your free is in good range and thats more important than total. can you do another test to check for free T? your e2 is not high enough to cause water retention, but i could be wrong! what is your water intake, are you sweating and urinating normally?

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## FONZY007

> whats more important is how do you feel. i bet your free is in good range and thats more important than total. can you do another test to check for free T? your e2 is not high enough to cause water retention, but i could be wrong! what is your water intake, are you sweating and urinating normally?


I still feel a little tired, but better im assuming after injection im in 400-500ng/dl range.. I can see normally i see the doctor and he just gives me the paperwork and I go do it 2-3 months down the road.. 

Question? If I add HCG will it increase these numbers?

Water intake a gallon or a little less, and sweating well I'm on accutane so almost no sweating at all lol

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## FONZY007

> Did you inject IM in the past? If so how does SQ numbers compare? Numbers seem really low for 120mg a week.


Yes I did, I was around 300ng/ml using 100mg a week

Plus with the sq, I did the bw the same day as my next injection. Did i do that right?

----------


## FONZY007

If I would switch to 3 injections per week how would I go about the protocol? Just inject every 72 hrs?

----------


## GFA

HCG will increase your numbers if your body can produce its own test. Your body produces around 5-10mg a day.

Usually your BW will spike around 2 days after your injection (IM). No idea how long till peak SQ.

No idea on SQ frequency as Im just started doing IM myself, 1x a week 100mg.

----------


## FONZY007

> HCG will increase your numbers if your body can produce its own test. Your body produces around 5-10mg a day.
> 
> Usually your BW will spike around 2 days after your injection (IM). No idea how long till peak SQ.
> 
> No idea on SQ frequency as Im just started doing IM myself, 1x a week 100mg.


My body does product just low, I would be like 120ng/dl on its own

----------


## GFA

If you are secondary (low LH/FSH causing your test to be low) then adding HCG will increase your test totals. 

If you are primary (high LH/FSH levels and still low test) then adding HCG will have no effect on your test totals.

----------


## bass

> If I would switch to 3 injections per week how would I go about the protocol? Just inject every 72 hrs?


to make it easy i am on ewd test/hcg 35mgs/250iu, no AI

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## FONZY007

> to make it easy i am on ewd test/hcg 35mgs/250iu, no AI


How you feel?

----------


## jamotech

> If I would switch to 3 injections per week how would I go about the protocol? Just inject every 72 hrs?


Every 56 hours to be exact,... mon. morning, wed. afternoon, fri. night is easier to remember.

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## GotNoBlueMilk

I do Tues/Thurs evening, Sun early afternoon. It doesn't have to be exact.

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## FONZY007

> I do Tues/Thurs evening, Sun early afternoon. It doesn't have to be exact.


How much you do and how your bw look? Do you use SQ?

----------


## bass

> How you feel?


just fine except i think my dose needs to be increased, recovery is very slow after workout, so maybe i can go about 40 mgs eod!

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## FONZY007

> just fine except i think my dose needs to be increased, recovery is very slow after workout, so maybe i can go about 40 mgs eod!


I been thinking a lot, I have 5000 ius of hcg .. Hmm instead of increasing my dose if test maybe add 500ius twice per week if hcg, that should be enough to raise my test values right? Also would i do it the same day I inject my test..

Than on a second note Johnny V is taking 200mgs a week, one shot and no AI or HCG and is similar in age as I...

Don't know what to do, but I think it does need to get raised slightly...

----------


## bass

this is what we all went and still going through, finding the sweet spot! unfortunately when you try new protocol you have to do it for at least 6 weeks to noticed any difference. i do test one day and hCG the next day and so on.

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## flatscat

> I inject into the thigh subq. Just had blood done a week ago. This was the first blood draw since switching two months ago to 3x/week. I won't see the blood results for another two weeks.
> 
> At this point I don't really care too much what the blood results are. I feel fantastic, and unless the blood comes back way too high or something, I don't really care what it says.


Sorry, but I have to ask.... you have that much bf around your thighs?

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## FONZY007

Fvckin flatscat lol

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## doc w

Anyone have any thoughts about a short acting test with an insulin pump. That way you could change the sq needle every four days and dose your test around workouts and simulate the natural circadian rhythm.

----------


## flatscat

Now there's a thought.

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## ecdysone

> Anyone have any thoughts about a short acting test with an insulin pump. That way you could change the sq needle every four days and dose your test around workouts and simulate the natural circadian rhythm.


We talked about this before....I like the idea! 

You would actually use test itself (no ester) in a such a device. Think about it: you could 'crank up the volume' just before the "big date" and get whatever effect desired  :Smilie: 

But more practically I think where the field will go is towards a time-released, oral test-undec that has been engineered to bypass the first-past metabolism. You take it daily in the morning, get a nice spike just like natural.

----------


## doc w

> We talked about this before....I like the idea!
> 
> You would actually use test itself (no ester) in a such a device. Think about it: you could 'crank up the volume' just before the "big date" and get whatever effect desired 
> 
> But more practically I think where the field will go is towards a time-released, oral test-undec that has been engineered to bypass the first-past metabolism. You take it daily in the morning, get a nice spike just like natural.


I've read your previous posts and you have a firm grasp of pharmacokinetics. Things will definitely progress to what's easier for the masses. I think it would be very difficult to design a study that demonstrates the difference between two fairly effective treatments(. 6 woody's vs 7 for the week). So for the masses it's will all come down to convenience.

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## PetrX

> Anyone have any thoughts about a short acting test with an insulin pump. That way you could change the sq needle every four days and dose your test around workouts and simulate the natural circadian rhythm.


I'm a type 1 diabetic and I was advised against using an insulin pump ..I forget why lol but it made a lot of sense when the dr told me haha but I actually thought about this and my dr and I talked about it..I'm seeing him today and we will consult with the endo and see if it would be a good idea and safe as well..the only problem I see though is an insulin pump runs insulin which is very thin, testosterone how ever has more viscosity to it and therefore would probably require alterations and larger needles ect..

----------


## PetrX

> We talked about this before....I like the idea! 
> 
> You would actually use test itself (no ester) in a such a device. Think about it: you could 'crank up the volume' just before the "big date" and get whatever effect desired 
> 
> But more practically I think where the field will go is towards a time-released, oral test-undec that has been engineered to bypass the first-past metabolism. You take it daily in the morning, get a nice spike just like natural.


 kind of like that batman character bane who has a machine in the back of his neck that releases testosterone and gets super huge haha hmm

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## ecdysone

^^^ No actually test itself (non-esterified form) is easily dissolved in non-viscous liquids - the higher esters are dissolved in oils to act as a slow diffusing depots.

doc w: as hard as this is to believe (no pun intended!), they have designed experiments to quantitate 6 woody's from 7 - it's been applied to the study of anti-prolactins (pramipexole) in such matters.

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## doc w

Sounds like a HARD job

----------


## bass

Guys i thought I'll make the update here regarding SQ injection and E2 management. well 3 weeks after doing eod test/hcg and stopping AI i finally felt the high E2 symptoms, like watter retention, fat gain, sensitive nipples, no sex drive, tired, etc... so i decided to get back on AI at 0.5 mg twice week.

----------


## zaggahamma

> Guys i thought I'll make the update here regarding SQ injection and E2 management. well 3 weeks after doing eod test/hcg and stopping AI i finally felt the high E2 symptoms, like watter retention, fat gain, sensitive nipples, no sex drive, tired, etc... so i decided to get back on AI at 0.5 mg twice week.


thanks bass
would it be correct if you had a sense of well being *temporarily* when halting the ai? moreso than when you were on it...but then approximately 3 weeks on your protocol you feel these symptoms?

----------


## spywizard

> When I did almost 1cc I got a lump and it was sore for a good week. When I cut it down to 1/2cc everything was fine. Some people seem to be ok with more but I would rather do it 2x a week if need be.


yep, that's what happened to me.. i'll try the smaller dose as well

----------


## bass

> thanks bass
> would it be correct if you had a sense of well being *temporarily* when halting the ai? moreso than when you were on it...but then approximately 3 weeks on your protocol you feel these symptoms?


thats exactly what happened JP, i felt really good about a week after i stopped AI then by the third week just felt the high e2 symptoms i listed. already feeling much better and bloating is going away, just another indication my e2 was too high. unfortunately i convert easy.

----------


## bass

> yep, that's what happened to me.. i'll try the smaller dose as well


i got lumps and lasted a week or so at the beginning, but later they got better but didn't get eliminated, still lasted a day or two even at smaller doses, however i found that injecting at 45 degrees and about 4" away from belly button totally eliminated the lumps, i was doing them 2" away from belly button, perhaps too close!

----------


## kelkel

> Guys i thought I'll make the update here regarding SQ injection and E2 management. well 3 weeks after doing eod test/hcg and stopping AI i finally felt the high E2 symptoms, like watter retention, fat gain, sensitive nipples, no sex drive, tired, etc... so i decided to get back on AI at 0.5 mg twice week.


Bass why don't you try .25 x 2 for a change and see if you can get by with less?

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## Vettester

bass, you know the drill ... Time for some labs. It will sort out soon enough.

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## JD250

^^^ yes, I'm very interested to see testosterone and e2 levels at 35 mgs eod.

I have a question, I know our bodies like to be in a state of homeostasis but where e2 is concerned in someone who is *NOT* on TRT does e2 remain fairly constant or does it fluctuate along with our test levels? Bass stating that he felt good after dropping the AI (at least for a while) reminded me of a discussion here about a year ago concerning the idea that we may feel better when our levels are fluctuating like they would normally rather than staying level all the time.........any merit whatsoever to that thought?

----------


## zaggahamma

Yes...some merit...bass just noticed...flatscat mentioned the same...and i believe it it to be true but I'm not really as in tune to every detail...I guess its the adhd

----------


## lovbyts

I think the term feel better is a relevant term. Sometimes different is better or worse depending on how you look at it. Feeling the same all the time even if it's OK or good one tends to want to feel different/better? It's sort of like how do you know you feel good/better if you have never felt bad? I know I have been in pain for the last 25 years due to my back and hardly go a day without pain but most of the time I think/say I feel fine because I'm use to it.

I'm not saying you are wrong though, it is a very good possibility what you say is correct because are bodies are not exactly a machine that needs to run exactly the same all the time. Everything effects our bodies, air environment, food, stress and we are continually adjusting or fluctuating.

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## bass

> Bass why don't you try .25 x 2 for a change and see if you can get by with less?


 yes i will this time.





> bass, you know the drill ... Time for some labs. It will sort out soon enough.


doing it tomorrow morning!





> ^^^ yes, I'm very interested to see testosterone and e2 levels at 35 mgs eod.


me too, I'll post blood work as soon as i get it.

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## zaggahamma

> I think the term feel better is a relevant term. Sometimes different is better or worse depending on how you look at it. Feeling the same all the time even if it's OK or good one tends to want to feel different/better? It's sort of like how do you know you feel good/better if you have never felt bad? I know I have been in pain for the last 25 years due to my back and hardly go a day without pain but most of the time I think/say I feel fine because I'm use to it.
> 
> I'm not saying you are wrong though, it is a very good possibility what you say is correct because are bodies are not exactly a machine that needs to run exactly the same all the time. *Everything effects our bodies, air environment, food, stress and we are continually adjusting or fluctuating.*


 agree
..and SLEEP...etc. 
and why i really find it hard myself to be so in tune with some of the minor side effects i hear about or feel myself

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## durak

> yes i will this time.
> 
> 
> 
> doing it tomorrow morning!
> 
> 
> 
> me too, I'll post blood work as soon as i get it.


I use deep-SQ in the delt or thigh. Do 1cc or 1/2cc twice a week depending on my mood. 25g 5/8 inch needle or 29g 1/2 inch needle (yes the 29g draws slow but so I do that while watching tv). Much easier than IM.

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## fm2002

Anxiously waiting guys for BW results for those who are on SQ !

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## zaggahamma

> Anxiously waiting guys for BW results for those who are on SQ !


check out bass's latest thread

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## HRTstudent

I think it's a great example that you can't substitute feelings/sides for what's actually going on... we're not talking about some rookies here either but people who know their bodies fairly well.  :Smilie: 

Glad everyone is here to help each other and share and learn.

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