# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > SUPPLEMENTS >  First Phera Plex cycle

## Panzerfaust

Well i feel the time has arrived for me to try a 4wk run of PP.

My goal is to cut on this 4wk run, but at the same time i would'nt mind some lean mass gains. Will decide what to do before Monday comes as it will only be a matter of tweaking macros. At this point, the most important thing is to nail down a solid attack plan while on and for PCT.

Here is how i plan to run it:

Phera-Plex at 20/20/20/20 

Hawthorne Berry ED
AX's Perfect Cycle
Milk Thistle
Vit B-12
Niacin
Multi Vitamin
Flax (included in dietary approach)

Proposed Diet while on PP (as of right now anyway):

Meal 1 - Pro shake, 1 cup Oats (R-ALA w/Biotin) 
kCals 370 Fat 4 Carb 29g Pro 51g 

Meal 2 - Tuna, 1tbsp Mayo 
kCals 250 Fat 14g Carb 0g Pro 33g 

Meal 3 - Lean Steak, Greens, Almonds or 1 tbsp flax or natty PB
kCals 412 Fat 31g Carb 0g Pro 32g 

Meal 4 Tuna, 1 Tbsp Mayo 
kCals 250 Fat 14g Carb 0g Pro 33g 

Meal 5 - PWO 
kCals 472 Fat 1g Carb 69g Pro 46g 

Meal 6 - Chicken breast, sweet potatoe (R-ALA w/Biotin) 
kCals 355 Fat 2g Carb 44g Pro 38g 

Meal 7 - Pro shake, 1 Tbsp Flax 
kCals 345 Fat 15g Carb 2g Pro 46g 

Totals:
kCals 2454 Fat 81g Carb 144g Pro 280g

Fat at first glance seems a bit high, good thing is most os coming from EFA's and i like to start high on everything and tweak as i plateau. Just a basic cutter.


PCT:

Week 1-2

Nolva at 40mg ED
AX Retain
AX PCT
Hawthorne Berry
Milk Thistle
Multi Vitamin

Week 3-4

Nolva at 20mg ED
AX Retain
AX PCT
Hawthorne Berry
Milk Thistle
Multi Vitamin

I open to suggestions and i know tongkat ali will come up and i am aware of it and am thinking about getting some to be safe but so far shut down has not been a huge issue with PP from what i have read.


And there it is folks, my proposed attack plan starting Monday 6/5/2006

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## Quil

Good luck man. I'm looking at PP for my clean bulk coming up in a month or so, so I'll be following your log closely. You gonna do pics?

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## rissinite

> Well i feel the time has arrived for me to try a 4wk run of PP.
> 
> My goal is to cut on this 4wk run, but at the same time i would'nt mind some lean mass gains. Will decide what to do before Monday comes as it will only be a matter of tweaking macros. At this point, the most important thing is to nail down a solid attack plan while on and for PCT.
> 
> Here is how i plan to run it:
> 
> Phera-Plex at 10/20/20/20 
> 
> Hawthorne Berry ED
> ...


I think that you'll regret not taking advantage of the PP boost by cutting rather than following a clean bulk. Just my .02

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## StateChamp

good luck man, keep us informed on your progress. Can't wait for my shoulder to fully recover so i can start my pp cycle.

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## Panzerfaust

> I think that you'll regret not taking advantage of the PP boost by cutting rather than following a clean bulk. Just my .02



Well its really up in the air, and i have until Monday to make that decision, but i still feel my BF is to high to bulk. I can honsetly say i get nervous just thinking about bulking but i know it needs to be done eventually.

It is also important to note that i am not a bodybuilder, i weight train to strengthen my body for fighting.

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## Panzerfaust

Here is a pic from January 2006 at 195lbs. I have made many improvements but am far from being "shredded".

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## rar1015

Good luck man! Let us know how it goes.

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## mwolffey

good luck bro...diet looks good too

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## hawktribal

everything looks real solid in my opinion. i think if you want to cut on PP go for it. no one said you had to bulk. you should benefit quite a bit from your 4 weeks. have you thought about running 20mg straight through?

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## Panzerfaust

> everything looks real solid in my opinion. i think if you want to cut on PP go for it. no one said you had to bulk. you should benefit quite a bit from your 4 weeks. have you thought about running 20mg straight through?



You know i have thought of that but i am one to play it safe, not sure yet on it though. 

Most people have chosen to bulk while taking PP, it can also be used for cutting but i am still undecided if i want to strcitly cut or add some kCals here and there for a lean mass gainer.

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## Panzerfaust

Shit, it looks like my Hawthorne Berry will not arrive until Monday, hopefully it will get here before i drop my first PP.

I am sure one day would not hurt right?

Got my AX PCT and Retain today and should get my PP tomorrow.

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## hawktribal

you'll be fine if its only one day. if its any longer i'd run to a vitamin shop and pick some up. it's not a hard supplement to find, i got mine at walmart for like $5. if you decide to cut or bulk you're going to make some steady gains. i'd seriously consider running 20 straight through. you're well protected with your supplements.

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## hawktribal

btw the way, the reason i think you should run 20/20/20/20 is not to just get more in you. from my cycle of superdrol and from what i've read from others on PP, running a constant doasge seems to yield better results. i ran SD 20/20/30/30 and wish i would have stuck with 20 all the way through. bumping it up did nothing more than give me back pumps. even though you wanted to start with 10, my advice would be start with 20 and keep it there.

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## Panzerfaust

I have decided to go with 20/20/20/20

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## Quil

I got my hawthorne berry, flush free niacin, and milk thistle at wal-mart. Not too bad if you're in a bind for some.

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## Panzerfaust

Got my PP in today and i am armed and ready for Monday. I am probably adding some Vitamin B into it all as well.

How much of these supplements did you bros take on your PP cycle?

Hawthorne Berry 510mg ED
AX's Perfect Cycle 2 Pills ED
Milk Thistle 400mg ED

Of course i think this is enough but i also know it does not hurt to play it safe, AX PC contains 600mg Milk Thistle on top of the regular Milk Thistle so that would equals 1000mg Milk Thistle ED.

Just wanna fine tune some details if anyone has any input.

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## rar1015

Im pretty sure phera plex is comparable to super drol and a buddy of mine did a super drol cycle and he said to help keep his cholesterol level down he added in some flush free niacin.

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## Papi93

> Im pretty sure phera plex is comparable to super drol and a buddy of mine did a super drol cycle and he said to help keep his cholesterol level down he added in some flush free niacin.


I would recommend adding niacin, too, to help with cholesterol support. Bryan2 has a great stickie on cholesterol support.

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## Panzerfaust

I am in a hurry here, can i get Niacin OTC like at Wal-Mart, CVS, Walgreens?

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## sonar1234

Same has you muriloninja i got 2 bottles of phera plex here and all my PCT ready, problem is i went from 205 to 180 with the protein diet and now am back at 184 with regular eating.

I dont want to bulk and have around one more month to go with back pain rehab, going very well.

Let me know how it went and post your pics i am pertty sure that i will follow the same plan has you, i never want to bulk again, i really want to get shredded but i cant just get rid of thoses 2 bottles, so might has well take them.

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## rar1015

Yeah you can get niacin pretty much anywhere.

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## rissinite

Flush Free Niacin
Hawthorne Berry
Taurine
Red Yeast Rice
Milk Thistle

That's really all ya need brother, and they're all at WalMart

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## novastepp

i ran hawthorn @ 2.2g ED just FYI.

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## Panzerfaust

I have been taking Taurine the last few nights just to get ready for what is coming, i had some Taurine left over from a Clen run i did awhile back.

I will pick up some Niacin tomorrow.

I work nights and i figure i will drop my first 10mg of PP around 8am when i get off along with my last meal of the "day", sleep until 3pm or so and then go to the gym after i eat a meal and have my second dose of 10mg with that meal.

Then Tues-Friday i will be on a normal humans schedule, getting up through the day and will space it out, once in the morning and then right before the gym later that day.

Tomorrow will be Day 1

Later

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## Panzerfaust

My Hawthorne berry should be here tomorrow so i will only be able to take 
400mg Milk Thistle and AX Perfect Cycle with my first dose.

Will rush tomorrow evening and get some Niacin and Hawthorne Berry (if mine does'nt arrive).

Will keep you guys updated.

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## rar1015

Yeah definetly let us know how it goes. You will probably be just starting pct when i start my pp cycle.

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## novastepp

good luck Muriloninja...  :Thumps Up:

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## ODC0717

looks good bro. keep us posted on your progress.

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## Panzerfaust

Thanks guys, i will do my best to keep you updated.

Just got in from work, took my first dose (10mg) about 45 minutes ago along with Milt Thistle, AX Perfect cycle. I took it with my last meal of the day being a pro shake w/ 1 Tbsp flax

Going to sleep for a few, get up and eat a meal and take my 2nd dose and head out to the gym an 1.5-2hrs later.

Goodnight

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## rar1015

Good luck bro....keep us updated.

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## Quil

Will be following closely.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 1 (revised)

20mg PP
510mg Hawthorne Berry (will begin bumping to 2-3x ED)
AX Perfect Cycle x2
400mg Milk Thistle x2
500mg Niacin
Vit B-12 1mg 


So far so good, had a good leg workout considering my work schedule and lack of sleep for training on a Monday, i really pushed it and laid of the cardio because of it, i had trouble walking but thats normal on a good leg day.

No sides or any stomach issues taking all these supps. Gonna try and get some good sleep and wake up and get ready to do it all again tomorrow.

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## Quil

I don't think you can go wrong with the milk thistle...Seems like I was taking 2 doses a day on my SD cycle.

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## Papi93

What does your strength training program look like? 

Don't worry about all of the pills, it is better to safe than sorry. My girlfriend would always joke that my cupboard looked like a pharmacy when I was doing a PP cycle.

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## Panzerfaust

> What does your strength training program look like? 
> 
> Don't worry about all of the pills, it is better to safe than sorry. My girlfriend would always joke that my cupboard looked like a pharmacy when I was doing a PP cycle.



Just got in from picking up some FLush Free Niacin and some Vitamin B-12

Hell yes it look like a pharmacy around here, its ridiculous.  :LOL:  My strength program, well i will make it short and sweet

Mon - Legs/Abs/35 minutes cardio
Tues - Arms/Abs/35 minutes cardio
Wed - Shoulders/35 minutes cardio
Thurs - Back & Traps/Abs/35 minutes cardio
Fri - Chest/35 minutes cardio

I will let you guys know if i begin lifting heavier and feel stronger.

Papi - How did you take your supplements? I got so much shit laying around i am seriously wondering when to take it.

Like i said in an earlier post, this is what it looked like today

8am: 10mg PP, 400mg Milk Thistle, AX Perfect Cycle with my lastr meal of the day being pro shake w/ 1 Tbsp flax

Got some sleep

3:30pm: 10mg PP, 400mg Milk Thistle, AX Perfect Cycle, Hawthorne Berry came in around 4pm and o went ahead and took 510mg HB

I still have my multi vitamin, niacin and B-12 to take today..goddamn this is alot of shit. 

I will most likely take Vit B-12 before bed. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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## Panzerfaust

Weighed in today at 196lbs.

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12

Worked arms tonight, still feel a bit week form the 2 week time off form the gym but i had a solid workout and finished it up with 35 minutes cardio.

No sides to report, only 2 days in so i cannot tell any difference from the PP, i expect that around day 5-7

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## edgarr

Is your B-12 pill or inject? If pills I think that it may be a waste. My cupboards are filled as well. Some times to the point where I forget what and when I took something. I think the best thing to do is just spread them out through out the day when you can.

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## JamieStyles

> Flush Free Niacin
> Hawthorne Berry
> Taurine
> Red Yeast Rice
> Milk Thistle
> 
> That's really all ya need brother, and they're all at WalMart


dont underestimate the power of walmart lol....when i first started my PP cycle i bought all these products at GNC for like 15 bucks each, 3 weeks later when my supply ran out i went to walmart and they are all like 5 bucks for a bigger supply :7up:

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## Papi93

> Just got in from picking up some FLush Free Niacin and some Vitamin B-12
> 
> Hell yes it look like a pharmacy around here, its ridiculous.  My strength program, well i will make it short and sweet
> 
> Mon - Legs/Abs/35 minutes cardio
> Tues - Arms/Abs/35 minutes cardio
> Wed - Shoulders/35 minutes cardio
> Thurs - Back & Traps/Abs/35 minutes cardio
> Fri - Chest/35 minutes cardio
> ...


I always took my support supplements with my phera plex doses. My times were almost exactly like yours (7:00am and 3:00pm to be exact). If I had extra pills to take (fish oil capsules, for example). I would take these around 11am. After my workout, I didn't want to be dicking around with these pills anymore.

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## chest6

lookin good so far...Couple days you should start noticing it

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## Panzerfaust

> lookin good so far...Couple days you should start noticing it


What exactly should i notice, just wondering what you think.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 3

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
Taurin

Worked shoulders and Abs today and had a good workout. Finished up with 35minutes cardio, I do not think i can tell any difference just yet.

Anyone have any info on "back pumps" and what exactly they are. I sore the day after each excercise this week which is strange and my upper back feels like it has been worked out but i don't do back until tomorrow. Back pumps?

All is going well...

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## rar1015

Ive heard of people getting some insane back pumps. A friend of mine told me the pumps he was getting were really hurting his back but it went away after a few days.

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## Quil

I had back pumps on SD. Felt extremely tight in my lower back all the time...in fact, it became uncomfortable to sit in certain positions, and feels like it needs to be stretched out, but stretching doesn't help much. Mine stayed for a few weeks before going away when I started PCT. I did not, however, supplement with Taurine, which should help.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 4

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
Taurin

Just got home from working back and traps, goddamn did i sweat today. Holy shit i was soaked like i jumped in a pool. Good workout and finished up with cardio as always.

What can i expect in the coming days as far as telling if this PP has kicked in?

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## Papi93

> Day 4
> 
> 20mg PP
> 800mg Milk Thistle
> 1.5g Hawthorne Berry
> AX Perfect Cycle
> 500mg Niacin
> 1000mcg Vit B-12
> Taurin
> ...


You should start to notice very good strength gains in the second week. They will not be as great as if you where increasing your caloric intake, though.

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## Papi93

> Day 3
> 
> 20mg PP
> 800mg Milk Thistle
> 1.5g Hawthorne Berry
> AX Perfect Cycle
> 500mg Niacin
> 1000mcg Vit B-12
> Taurin
> ...


I didn't experience the lower back pumps that some have. Other members supplement with taurine to help with this. I guess I was lucky. Are you getting enough water?

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## Panzerfaust

I am not having any "back pumps", my upper back seemed a tad sore but did'nt fit the explanations of back pumps i was given. I am getting more than enough water, i am adding a few extra kCals than normal and i hope to see this stuff kick in next week.

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## rar1015

Let us know when it kicks in man!

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## Quil

I didn't start experiencing the back pumps until after the first week or so...that's also about the time that I noticed my strength going way up. I'm sure the taurine will help you out considerably.

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## PoisonPen

Great topic. Just a few questions:


*Is Hawthorne Berry required for cycles of PP? Same with Niacin. Obviously it would be better to sue it than not, but is their a high risk if it is not used?*

Thanks for the help.  :Smilie:

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## Panzerfaust

Day 5

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
Taurin


Off day from the gym as well as the next few because of work, will be back in the gym hitting it hard on Monday. I gotta figure something out because i missed a chest workout, my g/f has Fridays off and i wanna spend time with her so i figure i will have to throw chest into the mix on another day.

No sides to report. I cannot tell anything different so far, should start to see/feel the difference this coming week from what i have read.

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## rar1015

PoisonPen.............Dont hijack someones thread........just start a new one and you will get plenty of answers. Plus you can also use the search function at the top of the page.

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## bruinsball22

Im currently running a cycle of max lmg.. and like you were saying you sweat a lot. That happened to me the first week or so, even felt sick in the gym... I also started getting the back pumps you guys are talking about. Extreme back pumps barely being able to bend over. I use a heat pack on my back to loosen it up. The back pumps are coming i have only like a week left in my cycle. So you still might be looking at them down the road

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## Panzerfaust

Sorry for no updates but my work schedule is crazy over the weekend.

Day 6

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin


Day 7

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin


Day 8

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Although i do not workout on work days due to the night shift plus working 12hrs and have to be back to work 8 hours later so i usually only get 5 hours sleep.

Anyways, i believe PP is kicking in and am anxious to see what happens in the gym in about an hour (Chest/Legs). I feel like my muscles are tighter than usual and i believe it or not i can see some results already and i look leaner than i did last week and i feel like i am ready to lift some heavy shit.

Will update this post later tonight after the gym

Absolutely no side effects at all right now, water intake has been 1.5 gallons a day and will continue as normal.

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## rar1015

Glad to hear its kickin in man. Yeah definetly let us know how you workout goes tonight.......ill be watching for the post.

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## CoreyTampa09

Just curious but, since your diet looks similar to a cutting diet - Im not fully understanding why your doing your 35 minutes of cardio right after your lifts. Do you bring your shake with you to the gym and drink it immediatly after your run, or do you wait even longer to get home. Do you think(other member chime in) the 35 minutes of cardio after your lift could be affecting your gains and muscular growth?

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## Papi93

> Great topic. Just a few questions:
> 
> 
> *Is Hawthorne Berry required for cycles of PP? Same with Niacin. Obviously it would be better to sue it than not, but is their a high risk if it is not used?*
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Bryan2 has an excellent stickie at the top that will answer all of your questions.

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## Panzerfaust

Had a good workout, realy focused on hitting the chest and proper ROM thanks to this video: http://thefitshow.com/week3/milos_chest_med.htm

I felt as though i did not fatigue as fast as i usually do, Monday is usually a rough day cause i get off at 8am and then am in bed by 9:30am and try to sleep until 3pm, thats not much sleep believe me especially after working 3x12's on 5-6 hours sleep a night.

I am anxious to see what this week entails...


CoreyTampa09:

Yes, i am running a cutting diet and have been doing 32-35 minutes cardio after weights at .75% MHR and of course i bring my PWO and am shaking it and drinking it onm the way to the car but it would not matter if i waited and had it at home. 

I am a firm believer in AM cardio but i have been seeing good results this way, and by the way i am not a bodybuilder and have been doing this long enough to not be as anal when it comes to AM vs PM cardio...its a personal choice and people see results both ways.

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## CoreyTampa09

I see, im not on any supplements but i was thinking of adding in a 20 -30 minute run along with my 45 min am cardio after looking to see if it would help burn more fat in my cutting routine. This may sound weird but although Im cutting, im gaining weight but feeling leaner.

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## rar1015

Has you strength been going up that much yet?

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## boxingbean

> I am in a hurry here, can i get Niacin OTC like at Wal-Mart, CVS, Walgreens?


ANY NUTRITION STORE, GET SUM TARUINE WHILE YOUR AT IT, YOULL THANK ME LATER

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## Panzerfaust

> I see, im not on any supplements but i was thinking of adding in a 20 -30 minute run along with my 45 min am cardio after looking to see if it would help burn more fat in my cutting routine. This may sound weird but although Im cutting, im gaining weight but feeling leaner.


I would not add the running, running is catabolic especially after 45 minutes of cardio. Remember there is such a thing as "over" training. Ifyou have anymore questions, post it in the DIET forum.

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## Panzerfaust

> ANY NUTRITION STORE, GET SUM TARUINE WHILE YOUR AT IT, YOULL THANK ME LATER



Sorry but you are a week late giving that advice, thanks anyway!

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## Panzerfaust

Day 9

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Had a good day and felt less tired than normal, made it to the gym a bit later than i had orginally planned. Had a real good workout (Arms/Obliques) and finished up with cardio as normal.

Considering i am not packing on the kCals i am not getting the major strength gains compared to those who bulk but i can tell the difference and my chest is absolutely blown to bits today after yesterday.  :Strong Smiley:  

I weighed in today at 198lbs (up 2lbs) but am definately looking leaner than last week.

All is going well thus far, no sides whatsoever. Could'nt be happier so far.

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## sonar1234

muriloninja thats pertty good bro, try to get some before and after pics.

If everything goes well i should do my phera plex this mid summer.

Your gains are very encouraging cause i dont plan to bulk up either.

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## Panzerfaust

> muriloninja thats pertty good bro, try to get some before and after pics.
> 
> If everything goes well i should do my phera plex this mid summer.
> 
> Your gains are very encouraging cause i dont plan to bulk up either.



It might be important to add that i am throwing in a few extra Kcals in the form of BBQ sauce on my chicken etc. Nothing major.

Just had some Deer meat with a chicken breast, man that shit is good.

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## rar1015

Dear meat tastes great. 
I know you said that you were going to use this more as a cutter right? If that is what your doing even though your up two pounds do you think your starting to reduce some body fat too?

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## Panzerfaust

> Dear meat tastes great. 
> I know you said that you were going to use this more as a cutter right? If that is what your doing even though your up two pounds do you think your starting to reduce some body fat too?



No doubt that is exactly what is happening.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 10

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Had one hell of a shoulder workout today and had to lean on racks just to feel some relief from the pain in my shoulders.  :LOL:  Did not do cardio today as i was pressed for time and am helping my g/f move.

Day 11

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Taken today off from the gym to do some housework/bills and help the g/f move. I feel good and my only compaint is that i need to go buy some more gallon water jugs, otherwise i find it hard to get 1.-1.5g in a day. Absolutely no side effects thus far and i feel good.

Diet today is non-existant but that won't kill me. I am sore all over from my workouts this week and loving it.

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## rar1015

Good to hear man!!!

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## Panzerfaust

Day 12

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Had a good day and had a short/intense back workout minus deadlifts (pressed for time) and am headed to work over the weekend so i will not be updating until probably Monday.

Still no sides at all and goddamn i can see my shoulders coming out, last night i got a good angle in a mirror where i could see my back, HOLY SHIT is my back coming along and i was shocked and it took my girlfriend to say "Stop looking at yourself" to get me to stop looking at my new back.  :LOL:  
She loves to say "I told you so", hell if i can;t see it how do i know?
I can't wait to lift again on Monday. Lata

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## novastepp

i'm glad it is kicking ass for you. it sounds like you are doing most of the work though  :Thumps Up:  i noticed when i did pheraplex that i was lean bulking and i gained strength and size and dropped bf at the same time. so i know you wqill undoubtedly have great succes with it. keep it up bro!

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## Papi93

> Day 12
> 
> 20mg PP
> 800mg Milk Thistle
> 1.5g Hawthorne Berry
> AX Perfect Cycle
> 500mg Niacin
> 1000mcg Vit B-12
> 500mg Taurin
> ...


It's funny how a lot of women get angry when you look at yourself, in the mirror, to measure your progress. They want all eyes on them. When they are out with you, they like the way you look but just can't understand the dedication it takes to get there. I'm still waiting to find a woman who understands this takes work!

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## sonar1234

> It's funny how a lot of women get angry when you look at yourself, in the mirror, to measure your progress. They want all eyes on them. When they are out with you, they like the way you look but just can't understand the dedication it takes to get there. I'm still waiting to find a woman who understands this takes work!


Dont even bother Papi93, girls are funny they dont want you to take stuff to make you look better, but when you do and they see the results they cant get enought.

Damn i cant wait to get my pheraplex cycle going, i lost a huge amount of muscles when i did my protein diet and since i wasnt training i lost even more.

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## sonar1234

I wanna know at the end of the cycle after the pct if all the gains remain, and if you got some nice seperations in the muscles does that remain has well or it sort of does the same thing has when you stop taking say creatine and you see the gains go away gradually?

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## Papi93

> I wanna know at the end of the cycle after the pct if all the gains remain, and if you got some nice seperations in the muscles does that remain has well or it sort of does the same thing has when you stop taking say creatine and you see the gains go away gradually?


For me, I have retained my bodyweight and strength. I gained all 14lbs off my first cycle and retained all of the weight. It was not easy because it is challenging at times to keep your caloric intake up, when off-cycle. You have to force yourself to do this though. After your cycle, you could run arimidex , as a natural test booster, to help you retain your gains. 0.5mg for 4 weeks will nearly double your natural test levels. It will, also, cut down on water retention so you will look harder. Through some creatine in there wouldn't hurt for helping retain strength gains.

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## sonar1234

> For me, I have retained my bodyweight and strength. I gained all 14lbs off my first cycle and retained all of the weight. It was not easy because it is challenging at times to keep your caloric intake up, when off-cycle. You have to force yourself to do this though. After your cycle, you could run arimidex, as a natural test booster, to help you retain your gains. 0.5mg for 4 weeks will nearly double your natural test levels. It will, also, cut down on water retention so you will look harder. Through some creatine in there wouldn't hurt for helping retain strength gains.


Since i retained so much water and useless bodyweight (FAT) on creatine monohydrate i bought myself some VAULT by san, many guys at my job took this and V12 and add some great muscles gains without the bloated look.

I dont plan on overeating while doing my pheraplex, i would like to get muscle definition more then put on weight.

I am down to 183 pounds now so if i can build up to 190 with good quality weight that will suit me fine.

I am still on the bench right now seeing an osteopath she told me to wait to get a membership at the gym, for now its rehab but i guess that in one month or so i will finally be ready to push serious iron once again.

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## novastepp

> For me, I have retained my bodyweight and strength. I gained all 14lbs off my first cycle and retained all of the weight. It was not easy because it is challenging at times to keep your caloric intake up, when off-cycle. You have to force yourself to do this though. After your cycle, you could run arimidex, as a natural test booster, to help you retain your gains. 0.5mg for 4 weeks will nearly double your natural test levels. It will, also, cut down on water retention so you will look harder. Through some creatine in there wouldn't hurt for helping retain strength gains.


papi, good to hear from you man. i miss you, you complete me  :Smilie:  haha. hey have your views on PCT changed any since the last time i talked to you? i asthinking of ending my natural bulk with pheraplex and was wondering what you would advise. i suppose this is psudo-hijacking and i apologize. i am just intrigued by the arimidex comment you made.

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## Papi93

> papi, good to hear from you man. i miss you, you complete me  haha. hey have your views on PCT changed any since the last time i talked to you? i asthinking of ending my natural bulk with pheraplex and was wondering what you would advise. i suppose this is psudo-hijacking and i apologize. i am just intrigued by the arimidex comment you made.


I went with a clomid/nolva mix (100mg/20mg) for my PCT. I left out the PCT and Retain (I replaced Retain with Clenbuterol ). After the four weeks of PCT, I am running (currently) 0.5mg of arimidex (liquidex) for 4 weeks and 5g of Creatine Ethyl Ester. I like the arimidex/CEE combo because you don't hold any water from these two. The arimidex will actually reduce water retention. 

My libido returned much faster with clomid/nolva mix than it did with nolva alone. Many will disagree but that is my personal experience.

Check your PMs.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 13
20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin


Day 14

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Day 15

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
500mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Got alot of sleep after getting in fro work this morning, feeling good and went to the gym and did Chest/Abs. I am getting better at mind-muscle coordination and when i rack the weight after a set i can feel my chest relieved of the weight. I am loving it and feeling more confident about my chest workouts. Went a tad heavy today, up arounf 10lbs on flat, decline and incline.

One thing to note, i started dropping my cardio to 3x a week just to keep some of the kCals i am eating just to see what that does for me. I feel like my shoulders are bigger and i feel good all over.

No sides whatsoever to report. This could not be going better although i would agree this would make for a good 4 week bulk. I got another bottle just for that in the future.

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## rar1015

Good to here its working out for ya. It makes me wanna start my pp cycle a little early!!

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## Papi93

Don't know if you have seen the trenadol thread yet but I think you should check it out.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 16

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin


I slept for 12 hours if not more (what a lazy ****) today, woke up and had a good pro/carb meal and hit the gym and had one hell of a workout.

Have you ever tried doing "21's", i saw Ronnie do them on his On the road DVD and goddamn i tried them tonight and let me tell you, they are the shit and i will be doing them from here on out. Just seem stronger in all areas thus far this week and tomorrow will be shoulders and traps and i am eager to tear them up like last week cause i feel a diffeence in them.

No sides to report and everything is still going well. I did up my doasge of Niacin to 1000mg starting this week just for the hell of it.

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## LetsGetItOn

> Had a good workout, realy focused on hitting the chest and proper ROM thanks to this video: http://thefitshow.com/week3/milos_chest_med.htm


Good video man, got me even more popped up for chest day as well.

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## Papi93

> Day 16
> 
> 20mg PP
> 800mg Milk Thistle
> 1.5g Hawthorne Berry
> AX Perfect Cycle
> 1000mg Niacin
> 1000mcg Vit B-12
> 500mg Taurin
> ...


What order was the 21's? Top half, bottom half, and full ROM (for example)?

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## Panzerfaust

Sorry for not updating, i have been busy, quick reply here: Bottom Half, Top Half, Full ROM...talk about PUMP, it definately hits all angles of the bicep.

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## rar1015

Are the pumps pretty painfull?

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## Papi93

> Sorry for not updating, i have been busy, quick reply here: Bottom Half, Top Half, Full ROM...talk about PUMP, it definately hits all angles of the bicep.


You went from your strongest range to your weakest. That would definitely be tough when you got to the full ROM's.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 17

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Day 18

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Day 19

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Just got in form one hellacious back/abs workout. Made it quick/intense and short (50 minutes), threw on 225lbs to hammer out some deads which is pretty heavy for me but i am feeling it, so i went with it. Now i am headed to work for the weekend. I don't know what it is, the extra few kCals i have added to my diet or the PP kicking into high gear but i am tearing shit apart in the gym, my shoulders are looking much fuller and my mind/muscle coordination is very good and that is something it seems i just caught onto although i know that's how you are supposed to lift, it's like the last 3 weeks i have just started to lift properly, it's wierd.

Once again, no back pumps, no sides in the slightest to report. I am definately doing a full on bulk the next time around.


Papi: 

If you have'nt tried doing "21's", give them a shot. 3 sets and you will be pumped as hell.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 20

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Day 21

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin


Just got in from working the weekend. Ready to get to the gym after some sleep to continue building on this momentum that i have got right now. I have kept my kCals high and am feeling good and just wanna keep lifting and improving.

Once again i have no sides to report.

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## unvme9180

muriloninja how has PP affected your libido? I just finished SD and it crushed mine and I have a bottle of PP I was planning on running later this year. Hoping that PP wont do to me what SD did, libido wise.

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## Quil

Good to hear all is going well for you..I'm considering a PP cycle in another month or so. Are you going to have before/after pics?

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## Papi93

> Day 17
> 
> Papi: 
> 
> If you have'nt tried doing "21's", give them a shot. 3 sets and you will be pumped as hell.


I used to do them back in college (mid 90's) with my workout partner. You have to be a little conservative with the weights, at first. It puts your biceps under a long period of time under tension. We used to do them on the adjustable incline bench (incline db curls - 21's). If you haven't tried them on the adjustable incline bench, give it a try.

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## Papi93

> muriloninja how has PP affected your libido? I just finished SD and it crushed mine and I have a bottle of PP I was planning on running later this year. Hoping that PP wont do to me what SD did, libido wise.


When on PP, your libido will remain the same. I didn't have any problems like others have with SD.

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## Panzerfaust

> When on PP, your libido will remain the same. I didn't have any problems like others have with SD.



My libido has not been affected at all. I am anxious to see if it is affected after this week when i start PCT.

Just got in from Chest/Legs/Abs and am pretty fatigued from it. I decided to thorw in some leg work as i have ben slacking on them lately to focus more on my weak point (chest).

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## rar1015

Have you gain that much weigh?

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## rar1015

Have you gained any weight?

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## rar1015

Oops sorry.......i didnt mean to post that twice.

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## unvme9180

glad to hear the libido stayed in tact. PP is next on my list and I dont want to go through what Im going through now after doing SD.

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## Papi93

> My libido has not been affected at all. I am anxious to see if it is affected after this week when i start PCT.
> 
> Just got in from Chest/Legs/Abs and am pretty fatigued from it. I decided to thorw in some leg work as i have ben slacking on them lately to focus more on my weak point (chest).


My libido was affected during PCT. There was a very noticable decrease. Everyone is different though.

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## Papi93

> glad to hear the libido stayed in tact. PP is next on my list and I dont want to go through what Im going through now after doing SD.


PP can decrease your libido during PCT. Make sure you know what you need, supplement-wise (tongkat ali, etc), if your libido starts to give you problems.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 22

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Weighed in today at 203lbs, that is up 7lbs if i am correct. Pretty good 7lbs as i look thicker in areas and feel good. It was only these last two weeks that i ave increased my kClas, if i had to do over i would have had them higher throughout this cycle. Another learning expierement.

Just got in from another intense Bicep/Tricep workout and finished it up with 32 minutes of cardio. 


No sides to report and i am going to need to get some more Milk Thistle and probably should get some Tongkat Ali just in case.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 23

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin


Day 24

20mg PP
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin

Left my girlfriends place and forgot my supps, so i had to crack open my other bottle of PP just to get today's dosage in. Had her bring my supps over when she came later that eveing and i went ahead and dropped some Niacin and AX Perfect Cycle.

Had another killer shoulder workout tonight, this shit is getting so crazy that i am killing myself. I have to lean on everything to relieve my shoulders of the pain..the improvements are kicking ass. I think i am going to continue keeping ym kCals higher than normal for a while while i have this momentum going and then start another cutter, my body needed a break from cutting, i had been cutting for years and my body is loving this shit, i feel so much better in the gym now and not as weak and mentally i feel better.

Will be starting PCT on Monday buy would love to keep going, i feel like i am just getting this momentum going and i don't want it to stop.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 25 

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Just got in from a good back/ab workout...short, intense and sweet. Went shopping for clothes today and holy shit i have put on some size. Stuff just was'nt as comportable as it should have been but in the long run it's all good.

I am wondering if i should continue to keep my kCals high during PCT as well? Another thing i would like to ask is, i am going to split my PCT up into two doses a day.

So something like 20 Nolva in the morning etc. 20 Nolva 6-8hrs later just like i am doing with my PP. Anybody against this approach?

Thanks for reading guys, but this PP cycle is coming to an end...off to work for the weekend.


PCT looks like this:

PCT:

Week 1-2

Nolva at 40mg ED
AX Retain
AX PCT
Hawthorne Berry
Milk Thistle
Multi Vitamin

Week 3-4

Nolva at 20mg ED
AX Retain
AX PCT
Hawthorne Berry
Milk Thistle
Multi Vitamin

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## sonar1234

Would you have some before and after pictures to show progress that would be quit nice.

I am back in the gym myself going easy right now, i plan on starting my phera plex when i get back from vacation this means in about 3 weeks or so.

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## sonar1234

Would you have some before and after pictures to show progress that would be quit nice.

I am back in the gym myself going easy right now, i plan on starting my phera plex when i get back from vacation this means in about 3 weeks or so.

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## rar1015

Thats good man. I cant wait to start my phera plex cycle which will be in about 2 weeks.

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## Panzerfaust

Day 26

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Day 27

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

Day 28

20mg PP
800mg Milk Thistle
1.5g Hawthorne Berry
AX Perfect Cycle
1000mg Niacin
1000mcg Vit B-12
500mg Taurin

I am officially done with this PP cycle...what a ride and i am saddened that it has ended, i truly felt i was just getting everything going good and making good gains.

One mistake that i learned was that i should have decided to do a bulking run instead of a cutter, i do not believe PP should be used as a cutter. It was only after i raised my kCals starting week 3 that io began feeling better and lifting heavier and i am sure some of that came from the simple fact that i was finally taking in more kCals as opposed to a constant calorie deficit thati have been on for years.

I have gained some BF% but nothing i can't take off in weeks by adding the cardio back into the mix. I feel self concious now that i have put on some weight, let me cut this up a little bit guy's and i might post pics, i am not into posting pics for critique as i am my biggest critic (ask my girlfriend).

I will weigh in tomorrow and that will be the official weight gained while on PP.


PCT has now begun:

Day 1

8:30am

20mg Nolva
Milk Thistle
Hawthorne Berry
AX PCT
AX Retain

When i wake up i plan to take the other 20mg Nolva etc...

Is there any problem splitting PCT up into 2x a day or should i take it all once daily?

Going to go get some sleep...later

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## Papi93

> Day 26
> 
> 20mg PP
> 800mg Milk Thistle
> 1.5g Hawthorne Berry
> AX Perfect Cycle
> 1000mg Niacin
> 1000mcg Vit B-12
> 500mg Taurin
> ...


Are speaking about splitting the nolva up? It's not necessary (long half-life) but you can if you like.

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## rar1015

> Are speaking about splitting the nolva up? It's not necessary (long half-life) but you can if you like.



I dont really mean to hijack but what is the half life of nolva?

----------


## Papi93

> I dont really mean to hijack but what is the half life of nolva?


5-7 days.

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## rar1015

That long huh. Cool thanks man.

----------


## Panzerfaust

Ok, just got in from a mad chest/mild ab workout and finished up with cardio.

I will start taking all my Nolva at the same time but will go ahead and take some more milk thistle, hawthorne berry later in the day. I got some Tongkat Ali on the way, damn it was a bit expensive though, not sure if i will need it but oh well.

----------


## Panzerfaust

Day 2 PCT

40mg Nolva
AX Retain
AX PCT
Hawthorne Berry
Multi Vitamin

Weighed in today at 203lbs...if i remember correctly i started at 196lbs so that is a good 7lbs or so..could have been more no doubt, i just started playing around and eating more kCals the last 2 weeks, i not all of it was clean...definately wanna do a bulk next time round.

Gonna take another dose of Retain and Hawthorne Berry as well as Milk Thistle later today. Will take all the Nolva at once in the AM.


What kind of diet should i follow during PCT, keep the kCals up? I am ready to start doing more AM cardio but am not sure just yet...

----------


## Quil

I'd keep the cals up, and possibly throw in some CEE to help keep the strength gains.

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## Papi93

> That long huh. Cool thanks man.


If you go to anabolic -research.com, and look in the PCT forum, there is a thread on the half-life of nolva.

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## Panzerfaust

Got my Tongkat Ali today, i don't think i will take it unless needed.

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## rar1015

How is the pct going so far?

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## rake922

> Here is a pic from January 2006 at 195lbs. I have made many improvements but am far from being "shredded".



I read this whole thread over again... I don't see the pic from Jan06

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## rake922

> Got my Tongkat Ali today, i don't think i will take it unless needed.



Darn, seems like you aren't taking any chances as far as supporting health supplementation... How much did everything cost?

----------


## Panzerfaust

> Darn, seems like you aren't taking any chances as far as supporting health supplementation... How much did everything cost?



Not sure how much everything cost, why would you take any chances with your health if avoidable?

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## Panzerfaust

> How is the pct going so far?




No problems thus far, no shut down etc..but got the Tongkat Ali on standby.

----------


## rar1015

Thats good to hear.

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## rake922

Any updates muriloninja?

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## Papi93

> Any updates muriloninja?


What's happening?

----------

