# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Birth Control Pill - effect on libido and mental health

## PPC

Sorry in advance this is so long. Thought most of it too important to leave out. I don’t mean to write this as a big scare tactic but I think it is better to be informed. Hard decisions are better made that way.

First things first, despite what doctors may tell us, the pill does not provide our bodies with all the hormones we need. Bio identical hormone specialist Dr Steven Hotze says… “Birth control pills are not hormones, they are drugs that mimic hormones. Hormones exist in nature and in our human bodies. Those are the only true things that are homones.”

The pill shuts down production of estrogen and progesterone and replaces them with synthetics. Originally the synthetic estrogen in the pill was notorious for causing blood clots. The modern day pill is much lower in estrogen to try to significantly reduce this side effect, although it can still be a problem for smokers and others with cardio risk factors. Unfortunately this low level of estrogen in the pill is often not as much as many women would naturally make on their own. 

Estrogen is our ‘happy hormone,’. Without enough of it, our brain cannot work sharply and we get pms- ish and gloomy. Think of how you feel right before your period, this is when your E levels are lowest – not pretty. Doctors like gynecologist Uzzi Reiss, are concerned over these new ‘low dose pills’ as they are now observing cognitive decline eg brain fog in women on these contraceptives.

Although big pharmaceuticals have been quiet on this topic, studies now back up the fact that taking the pill increases a woman’s likelihood of depression. A 2005 study from Australia’s Monash University found that the pill increased average depression ratings to 17.6 compared to 9.8 in women not on the pill. None of the women studied had a history of depression before use.

Sounds exactly like what happened to me. Several years ago, I was prescribed the pill for the first time to try to regulate heavy bleeding. I had always been a confident, happy person. After I started the pill, I became depressed and started to loathe myself. I also lost my healthy libido. 

Like most women, I was simply offered an antidepressant when I mentioned my mood changes to my doctor. I could not see the logic to this. I knew whatever anti depressant they offered me would have it’s own list of side effects. So the choice became quit the pill or drive my husband crazy with my irritability. When I quit taking it 9 months later I was so happy to have ‘me’ back,’ though I had a long road ahead of me trying to find the solution to my bleeding problems.

Lack of natural estrogen is not the only way the pill leads to depression. The progestin in the pill shuts down ovary function and this eliminates around 70% of Testosterone . . Tesotosterone is essential to females. The small amount we make gives us our sex drive, our vitality, our muscle tone, our confidence and emotional strength, our healthy memory and brain function, our clitoral and nipple sensitivity, our orgasmic response and feelings of happiness. If that weren’t bad enough, oral BC raises SHBG levels to the point where that last 30% of T is unable to be of much effect.

The last important hormone oral birth control messes with is progesterone. Our natural progesterone is vital to our well being, crucial for protecting us against breast and uterine cancer. A study by John Hopkins in 1981 showed that real progesterone fights against cancer and a progesterone deficiency dramatically increases the risk of breast cancer.

Dr Steven Hotze emphasizes that the progestins in birth control cut off natural progesterone, essentially leaving a woman in a state of ‘estrogen’ without protection.. He believes this propogates cancer.

It’s important to look at the differences between bio identical hormones, like the ones our body makes (the same ones that are used in bio identical hormone therapy) compared to the counterfeit hormones in the pill and those used in conventional HRT. The following is just a brief glimpse at some of the important differences. This subject is covered in much greater depth in Uzzi Reiss’s books, which I highly recommend. He cites references, forgive me for not taking the time to do that here.

*Counterfeit progesterone promotes diabetes and bone loss. Bio identical progesterone helps to build bones and in the right balance, natural progesterone does not raise insulin resistance.

*Counterfeit progesterone destroys sleep quality. Bio identical progesterone is the perfect sleep aid by raising Gaba in the brain, a calming, restful neruro transmitter.

*Counterfeit progesterone is harmful to the brain. Bio-identical progesterone once again has the opposite effect. It has been shown in studies to generate new brain cell growth. It critically protects neurological function.

*Counterfeit progesterone promotes anxiety and depression. Bio-identical progesterone naturally soothes and calms.

*Counterfeit progesterone like provera is proven to promote breast cancer. Bio-identical progesterone protects the breasts from too much estradiol. Remember there are many progesterone receptors in the breast but no receptors for mimics of this hormone.

*Counterfeit estrogens increase inflammation. Bio identical estrogen decreases it and decreases C-reactive protein (CRP) which is a general marker for inflammation. Doctors who switch their menopausal women over from synthetic estrogens to bio-identical often find women report a reduction in joint pain which is a good indicator of inflammation. Natural estrogen naturally reduces pain levels in women by raising serotonin.

*Counterfeit estrogens increase body fat and decrease lean body mass. In contrast, bio-identical estrogen decreases body fat and allows for muscle growth.

*Counterfeit estrogens raise cardiovascular risk and venous thrombosis (deep vein clots.) Bio-identical estrogen protects against heart disease and does not pose a risk for blood clots. Dr Uzzi Reiss has treated more than 20 000 women with bio identical estrogen and has not observed a single cardio vascular event associated with estradiol treatment in transdermal form.

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## redz

Yeah I`m glad my wife is getting off that crap this month. I can notice the difference when she is on the pills and not on. Her sex drive is just not the same while she is on them.

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## Times Roman

I went and got myself "cut" sometime ago so she could come off.

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## SlimmerMe

Excellent PPC!

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## Vettester

Great thread, PPC!! 

Were you able to accomplish getting off the BC pills and on to BHRT with your primary doctor, or did you end up going to a specialist/AA Clinic? Was the transition easy, or did it take awhile to adjust? 

How often do you monitor your BW being on BHRT? Is it all transdermal or do you have any oral or injection medication? Sorry to bombard you with questions, but this is very intriguing! A complete change of pace in this forum ... Very nice!  :Thumps Up:

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## BengalWoman

Thank you so much PPC for your post! So many of your points really hit home with me! 

I started the pills to help the heavy bleeding and horrible cramps when I was 17 (now 40). I was always on the 'lowest' dose possible of BC. I was on anti-depressants for many years. I thought it was the family issues going on, but I never thought BC would be a factor. I've taken St. Johns Wort to help 'stabilize' me for 10 years plus. 

A year or so ago - I noticed major changes. The worst was a decrease in libido. I complained several times to my doctor and she increased the dosage of my BC. I did notice positive results but, also negatives. Just before my cycle the worst PMS I ever experienced. My doctor did offer to take me off BC, but the pre-BC scared me off. 

Early menopause is common in my family. My doctor says until the blood test levels of a specific hormone (not sure which one) show a change and I have not had a cycle in a year - there was nothing she could do. 

I'll talk to my doctor again about going off the BC to see my what 'natural' hormones levels and go from there.

PPC - Thanks again!

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## PPC

> Thank you so much PPC for your post! So many of your points really hit home with me! 
> 
> I started the pills to help the heavy bleeding and horrible cramps when I was 17 (now 40). I was always on the 'lowest' dose possible of BC. I was on anti-depressants for many years. I thought it was the family issues going on, but I never thought BC would be a factor. I've taken St. Johns Wort to help 'stabilize' me for 10 years plus. 
> 
> A year or so ago - I noticed major changes. The worst was a decrease in libido. I complained several times to my doctor and she increased the dosage of my BC. I did notice positive results but, also negatives. Just before my cycle the worst PMS I ever experienced. My doctor did offer to take me off BC, but the pre-BC scared me off. 
> 
> Early menopause is common in my family. My doctor says until the blood test levels of a specific hormone (not sure which one) show a change and I have not had a cycle in a year - there was nothing she could do. 
> 
> I'll talk to my doctor again about going off the BC to see my what 'natural' hormones levels and go from there.
> ...


Have you ever had several months when you have been off the pill, just cycling on your own since you were seventeen?

At 17, do you remember how many days your bleeding would last and were your cycles less than 28 days? Of course I am not a doctor but I have come to understand that most women who have excessive bleeding are usually deficient in progesterone production. Estrogen builds the lining in the first part of the cycle, then progesterone ramps up after ovulation to combat anymore build up. It mantains the lining until the end of cycle where it allows for an efficient bleed. 

A normal period should last 4-5 days and not gush like a river but a good flow is needed to cleanse the uterus. Progesterone deficient women often never have their uterus slough off enough, so it has to start a new cycle only partially cleansed. Also, they don't have enough progesterone to combat their estrogen so the 'build up' can get out of control. This is true 'estrogen dominance'. It's not that there is too much estrogen, just too little progesterone to make the right balance. I could take a guess that might have been part of your problem as it was mine.

Do women in your family start periods early?

Your doc is wrong. There are things you can do about your situation. It may be hard at first but you will be able to get to a far better state of health. Transitioning back to your own cycles may be a big change. I would think you would need to endure a couple of pill free cycles then test for Estadiol (E2) progesterone, and Testosterone (free and total). You can ask to check FSH also

It's best to test your levels between day 18-21 of your cycle. If your progesterone is much below 11 then that will give you an idea that progesterone therapy will help you. I'll get into the best way to do that later. If your estradiol (E2) is below 100, then we'll know you are scraping the barrel there also. Women really need E2 levels 100 and above to feel their best. EStradiol below 30 indicates menopause. Estradiol below 50 means, your'e almost empty and that will usually coincide with a rise in FSH. As E2 lowers FSH rises as your body keeps tyring to kickstart the ovaries back into gear.

Hope some of this helps. Hang in there.

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## PPC

> Great thread, PPC!! 
> 
> Were you able to accomplish getting off the BC pills and on to BHRT with your primary doctor, or did you end up going to a specialist/AA Clinic? Was the transition easy, or did it take awhile to adjust? 
> 
> How often do you monitor your BW being on BHRT? Is it all transdermal or do you have any oral or injection medication? Sorry to bombard you with questions, but this is very intriguing! A complete change of pace in this forum ... Very nice!


I tried a lot of doctors for my problems. At that time, none of them were AA docs. They were either gynos or PCP types. I kept changing docs looking for answers and solutions. None of them had any answers for me as to the root of my problems.

I had two surgeries due to small polyps and fibroids in my uterus after coming off BC. It was not an easy time but atleast I had my mental health back. There was about a two year period between my BC use and finding BHRT. The surgeries did not help me, all my crazy bleeding persisted. In the end I was faced with hysterectomy or ablation so I got desperate for answers. I was reading a lot but not fully understanding, was convinced I was estrogen dominant, had even tried low dose adex as a protocol outlined by LEF. All that achieved was facial acne and mood changes again.

Finally stumbled on Uzzi Reiss's books right before I was schedulled to see a doc about the hysterectomy. Cancelled that and took lots of info to a local nurse pratitioner I had seen and urged her to write me a script for compounded vaginal progesterone. That was the beginning of my journey to recovery. 

I pay out of pocket for my doc visits and hormones so I never actually saw an AA doc until the last year when I found one for my husband. I had to convince regular docs to do these things. It's not much fun but I now have some tips to share on that.

Now I do use my T in injectable form. Very small doses twice a week, a total of 8 mg per week. I was doing 10 but felt very hyper sexual. I may go back up and see if that is no longer such an issue. I have used T transdermals. Injecting is cheaper for me. I find it more potent.

I have used E as transdermal as in bi-est. Now I'm doing something a little different. I need to start a different thread on these things where I'll outline exactly what I do. 

Blood work, right now every six months for me, wish it were more but I'm looking into a home test kit for E2 that I'm real excited about. I'll share that info also.

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## forrest_and_trees

PPC, Great info as always!  :Thumps Up:  

As far as your blood work is concerned, are you aware of "Private MD Labs"? They've got just about every test there is and often at much less than your standard sources if your paying out of pocket. The best part is they do not require a script for tests. You just go online and order what you want. Often they have "package" deals that are a real bargain and include tests that cover the gamut. They have local labs everywhere so you just find yours, go in, no appointment needed and they do the draw and send your samples out to the labs. You get your results directly via a web site so you can keep a copy for your records. And if for what ever reason you don't want your doctor, insurance, or whomever to know, it's all private.

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## PPC

> PPC, Great info as always!  
> 
> As far as your blood work is concerned, are you aware of "Private MD Labs"? They've got just about every test there is and often at much less than your standard sources if your paying out of pocket. The best part is they do not require a script for tests. You just go online and order what you want. Often they have "package" deals that are a real bargain and include tests that cover the gamut. They have local labs everywhere so you just find yours, go in, no appointment needed and they do the draw and send your samples out to the labs. You get your results directly via a web site so you can keep a copy for your records. And if for what ever reason you don't want your doctor, insurance, or whomever to know, it's all private.


Thanks Forrest,

I do know about them. I was getting blood work cheaply from a clinic close by that gives special deals to those who don't have insurance. But PrivateMdlabs is only slightly more costly and I wouldn't have to wait on medical practitioners as you mentioned, so I am thinking about using their sevices. The info you provided about them is good for all to read.

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## PPC

> I went and got myself "cut" sometime ago so she could come off.



That was 'manning up' for her for sure.

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## BengalWoman

> Have you ever had several months when you have been off the pill, just cycling on your own since you were seventeen?
> 
> At 17, do you remember how many days your bleeding would last and were your cycles less than 28 days? Of course I am not a doctor but I have come to understand that most women who have excessive bleeding are usually deficient in progesterone production. Estrogen builds the lining in the first part of the cycle, then progesterone ramps up after ovulation to combat anymore build up. It mantains the lining until the end of cycle where it allows for an efficient bleed. 
> 
> A normal period should last 4-5 days and not gush like a river but a good flow is needed to cleanse the uterus. Progesterone deficient women often never have their uterus slough off enough, so it has to start a new cycle only partially cleansed. Also, they don't have enough progesterone to combat their estrogen so the 'build up' can get out of control. This is true 'estrogen dominance'. It's not that there is too much estrogen, just too little progesterone to make the right balance. I could take a guess that might have been part of your problem as it was mine.
> 
> Do women in your family start periods early?
> 
> Your doc is wrong. There are things you can do about your situation. It may be hard at first but you will be able to get to a far better state of health. Transitioning back to your own cycles may be a big change. I would think you would need to endure a couple of pill free cycles then test for Estadiol (E2) progesterone, and Testosterone (free and total). You can ask to check FSH also
> ...



Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. 

I forgot to include a major issue in my original post. Since the change in BC I have gotten terrible headaches. Starting several days before my cycle and they typically last 2-3 days. 

To answer your questions:
Way back when, my cycles would last 7-10+ days and be heavy a good portion of it. I have never cycled the pills in all the years. I was pretty regular back then - I would hazard a guess to say yeah around 28 days for a cycle. I started my cyle when I was in 6th grade. Not sure if that is early or not. 

Would Blood tests be accurate after a couple of months of the BC or because my body is sooo used to them would it take longer to get an accurate test results. Let me know your thoughts. 

Thanks! +
 :7up:

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## PPC

> Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. 
> 
> I forgot to include a major issue in my original post. Since the change in BC I have gotten terrible headaches. Starting several days before my cycle and they typically last 2-3 days. 
> 
> To answer your questions:
> Way back when, my cycles would last 7-10+ days and be heavy a good portion of it. I have never cycled the pills in all the years. I was pretty regular back then - I would hazard a guess to say yeah around 28 days for a cycle. I started my cyle when I was in 6th grade. Not sure if that is early or not. 
> 
> Would Blood tests be accurate after a couple of months of the BC or because my body is sooo used to them would it take longer to get an accurate test results. Let me know your thoughts. 
> 
> Thanks! +


I got headaches before my cycles too. Adding in E at that time really helps since it raises seritonin which helps lessen pain in the body.

Many AA docs find E creams can help eliminate menstural miagraines in their patients, or greatly reduce them.. But....you said your BC hormones were recently raised to higher doses, so....hmmm. Some women find just the fluctuations of hormones can give headaches. From low to high, high to low can trigger them. That is why it is good to really monitor your cycles, write down when they occur and try to prevent the hormonal drop with bio supplementation if the fluctations are the trigger.

I really don't know if two months on your own will be enough to test your hormones. I just hate to think of you bleeding for ten days each period that you get without BC. But...maybe that won't happen. Probably three months off would give a better indication of where your own hormones are.

I don't think 6th grade is very early to start. Just looking for clues as to why women in your family enter menopause early. Stress is a big eater of E. The more stressful or even physically strenous (think lots of exercise) our lives are, the more our need for E.

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## Jupiter2

Thanks for your post PPC. I referred it to my 22 year old daughter who has been on the pill for the last few years.

She unfortunately is one of those girls whose period is nearly debilitating so the pill was suggested by her gyno. It was a godsend for her. Of course it has now become useful for other reasons as well (if only she had seriously considered becoming a nun!) What would be your suggestion, regarding alternatives, to alleviate her symptoms if she decided to stop taking them?

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## PPC

> Thanks for your post PPC. I referred it to my 22 year old daughter who has been on the pill for the last few years.
> 
> She unfortunately is one of those girls whose period is nearly debilitating so the pill was suggested by her gyno. It was a godsend for her. Of course it has now become useful for other reasons as well (if only she had seriously considered becoming a nun!) What would be your suggestion, regarding alternatives, to alleviate her symptoms if she decided to stop taking them?


Each woman's situation is unique of course so I can't play physician with your daughter but I can hazard a guess that she is not producing sufficient progesterone to combat estrogen. If pathology in her uterus is ruled out then she can try prometrium, (bio identical progesterone capsules), either 200mg orally from day 16-26 per cycle or even better, 100mg vaginally from day 16-26. Insurance usually covers prometrium. Without insurance it is very expensive. Generic is microgest.

I doubt OTC progesterone cream 2% would do the job if she had debilitating bleeding but she could trial it first - Emerita is a good brand. Younger women usually have much less trouble absorbing progesterone. But the best route to get P to the uterus is vaginally, that is why I mentioned prometrium. Crinone, (bio identical vaginal compounded cream) works well too, but since it is not in capsule form, an applicator is used and can be messy Both are very effective at thinning the uterus.

It would be better to get a full homone panel done first. I don't know why most physicians don't do this and instead just hand out the pill like it's the 'cure all.' Addressing the reason for the bleeding rather than bandaiding it seems more logical.

Again, if she is a reader, she would enjoy Reiss's books. They are not just geared to older women, but he addresses these issues younger women have too. If her problem is lots of pain and cramps that is usually a prostoglandin issue which usually lessens after pregnancy and birth. I don't know too much about how to deal with that but Reiss mentions this subject in his books.

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## Jupiter2

> Each woman's situation is unique of course so I can't play physician with your daughter but I can hazard a guess that she is not producing sufficient progesterone to combat progesterone.


Sowwy  :Tear:  but I'm just a wee bit confused about what you are saying here LOL. Do you mean: "producing enough progesterone to combat progesterone deficiency?"

I will let her know that this is something she should discuss with her doctor.

Thanks so much for the reply!  :Welcome:

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## PPC

> Sowwy  but I'm just a wee bit confused about what you are saying here LOL. Do you mean: "producing enough progesterone to combat progesterone deficiency?"
> 
> I will let her know that this is something she should discuss with her doctor.
> 
> Thanks so much for the reply!



Wow, sorry. That was ditzy. Need to go edit that post. I mean it's possible she's not producing enough progesterone to combat estrogen. The two balance one another. If P is insufficient, E can build up the lining of the uterus too much and cause long and hard bleeding issues. Enough P is needed to stop E from building the lining too much.....I hope I am making sense.

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## zaggahamma

depot prov-era also slows my fiances libido

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## PPC

> depot prov-era also slows my fiances libido


Note the word provera. That's included in counterfeit hormones big time. It was provera in the WHI study of female HRT in 2002 that was the main cause of all the dangerous side effects. The study had to be halted due to serious health issues rising in the women studied.

Actually it's probably one of the worst offenders for disrupting a woman's libido. It's not like I like being the bearer of bad tidings but here's a list of negatives depo provera causes according to Gyn Uzzi Reiss:

*Takes years for a woman to resume her normal menstrual cycle after concluding depot provera

*causes appreciable weight gain

*increases incidence of urinary tract infections

*increases risk of chlamydia and gonorrhea infection

*increases rate of acquisition of HIV infection

*increases rate of outward infection meaning a woman's ability to spread HIV is increased by the 'shedding' of the virus

Interesting that depot provera is used to chemically castrate sexual offenders to help prevent further sexual crimes as it is very effective at lowering male sex drive. But women are taught to take it willingly.

It does work to control bleeding because it is a mimic of natural progesterone. I'm stumped as to why docs don't prescribe the real thing for problems. Guess it's back to the system revolving around how much more money can be made with patentable meds.

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## BengalWoman

I just wanted to 'Thank' PPC for your advise on taking vitamin E for hormone headaches. It worked great! 

I am still in the works to get off BC. I am going to have to find a specialized doctor for my hormones. My doctor has advised that they will only address estrogen and progresterine levels - nothing else. 

Any one have a 'quick fix' for breast tenderness. Likely due to increased estrogen. Every little brush - just kills!

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## PPC

> I just wanted to 'Thank' PPC for your advise on taking vitamin E for hormone headaches. It worked great! 
> 
> I am still in the works to get off BC. I am going to have to find a specialized doctor for my hormones. My doctor has advised that they will only address estrogen and progresterine levels - nothing else. 
> 
> Any one have a 'quick fix' for breast tenderness. Likely due to increased estrogen. Every little brush - just kills!


Glad your headaches are doing a little better.

So if you are still on BC and your breasts are very sore then I can only assume you are using one with a higher estrogen? Since the pill does not have progesterone, (only synthetic), natural progesterone is not able to balance out the higher estrogen levels. Your body does not like it's current balance. Is this the first month your breasts have hurt like this? 

Of course only real progesterone can aid the breasts. You can supplement real Progesterone with an over the counter progesterone cream on your breasts even while on BC according to Dr Reiss. An otc formula will be a 2%. I'm not sure if it will be a quick fix but it may do a little good. Problem is, some women who do this find breast pain increases for the first month and then settles down after that.

I find taking vitex (chaste tree berry) really helps with sore breasts too. Takes a couple of months to feel the improvement though. I have studies somewhere for that. Let me know if you need to see them.

I hear you about the miserable sore breasts. When my sex hormones were imbalanced my breasts used to be shockingly sore. I could hardly hug my husband. Vit E is supposed to help this but obviously not yet doing that in your case. Mixed tocopherals of Vit E with atleast 200mg being of gamma form is important.

If your doc will start with E and P, that may be a place to work from. But I can understand you will want to supplement T since it will be needed. DHEA often swims downstream into T in females, (not neccessarily raising serum levels but expressing itself in the cells as T). It may be a start.

I added DHEA several months before I added T. It helped my skin be less dry and did make improvements in my libido.

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## BengalWoman

Hi. 

Actually I am on the 2nd to lowest BC. 

I just got 'The Natural Superwoman' by Reiss and have high hopes for all the knowledge he can pass on. He says that the tenderness is actually due to low Estrogen. 

My doctor says in a month she'll run blood tests Estrogen, Progesterine & T. I guess there is no point to adding anything until I can get them done. I'll ask for DHEA too. 

Thanks for your input!  :Welcome:

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## PPC

> Hi. 
> 
> Actually I am on the 2nd to lowest BC. 
> 
> I just got 'The Natural Superwoman' by Reiss and have high hopes for all the knowledge he can pass on. He says that the tenderness is actually due to low Estrogen. 
> 
> My doctor says in a month she'll run blood tests Estrogen, Progesterine & T. I guess there is no point to adding anything until I can get them done. I'll ask for DHEA too. 
> 
> Thanks for your input!


If you do get dhea tested. Test for dhea -s.


In a month, you will be testing while on BC or off?

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## BengalWoman

I'll be off BC for 30 days when I do the blood work. 

It'll be really interesting how my body reacts in the coming weeks with no BC.

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## PPC

> I'll be off BC for 30 days when I do the blood work. 
> 
> It'll be really interesting how my body reacts in the coming weeks with no BC.


It will be interesting for sure. I hope the best for you but it may be a little rocky at first.

Keep us updated please. :Welcome:  That little waving guy seems to be the only friendly one there. He seems to be popular with us females lol.

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## BengalWoman

Update time. 

I've been off BC for over a month. I just got back my blood test and I was hoping for some input from other members. 

LH 5.6 
T 14
DHEA 79.1
Estradiol 83.1

Thank you!  :7up:

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## SlimmerMe

hi---if it is the same blood test chart I am used to, your DHEA looks low to me and the only reason I say this is because mine is 257 and my doc wanted for it to go even higher...and some people prefer to get their Estradiol up to at least 100...but...I would wait for PPC to chime in on this...she knows her stuff!

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## Vettester

Good advise Slimmer. Her doctor is already going to the mode of "everything is normal" and looking to treat the score, not the patient. They're the same way when a 40yo male has a 300 total test score ... They'll just send you packing telling you how good you really feel, but Anti-D's are available if you really feel blue. What a joke!!!

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## SlimmerMe

> Good advise Slimmer. Her doctor is already going to the mode of "everything is normal" and looking to treat the score, not the patient. They're the same way when a 40yo male has a 300 total test score ... They'll just send you packing telling you how good you really feel, but Anti-D's are available if you really feel blue. What a joke!!!


YOU are welcome! (I have wondered though why he wants for my DHEA to be higher)...anyway---I need to really focus on BW test and get the numbers really secure in my head so I can help answer these kind of questions...

question: was the Estradiol from bloodwork? want to verify----as opposed to saliva----I have heard that saliva hormone testing scores higher---just confirming----as we await PPC!

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## SlimmerMe

> Update time. 
> 
> I've been off BC for over a month. I just got back my blood test and I was hoping for some input from other members. 
> 
> LH 5.6 
> T 14
> DHEA 79.1
> Estradiol 83.1
> 
> Thank you!


T....is 14? what "type" of testosterone BW was this? I have looked and looked over my test BW and do not see anything that resemble this number---so---would love to know what 14 represents....thanks

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## Vettester

> T....is 14? what "type" of testosterone BW was this? I have looked and looked over my test BW and do not see anything that resemble this number---so---would love to know what 14 represents....thanks


Total testosterone serum - Not positive, but I think their ref. range at Kaiser is something like 6-to-80. So again, it's like one of us guys having a 300 score and the doctor tells us everything is "normal", within range. I know women need a healthy amount (not elevated) of testosterone just like men do. I would presume even somewhere in the middle, call it 40 or 50 would be beneficial for for a female, but this is a completely different department then what I'm used to dealing with. 

Does your lab work show Total Test Serum? If so, curious what your score is. -Thanks

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## SlimmerMe

> Total testosterone serum - Not positive, but I think their ref. range at Kaiser is something like 6-to-80. So again, it's like one of us guys having a 300 score and the doctor tells us everything is "normal", within range. I know women need a healthy amount (not elevated) of testosterone just like men do. I would presume even somewhere in the middle, call it 40 or 50 would be beneficial for for a female, but this is a completely different department then what I'm used to dealing with. 
> 
> Does your lab work show Total Test Serum? If so, curious what your score is. -Thanks


okay...just called the doc..(nurse) and she told me my TOTAL T is 50 (just tested last week actually) ....and that my Free T is .8....and that my doc thinks that the Total T Bloodwork is a waste ....yes... that is what she said....but she did not tell me why he said this since she could not nail him down for an answer...but I asked her to find out why he thinks testing for Total T is a waste---I do know this about my doc: he is VERY aggressive in treatment....he is.,,,for example he is upset with me for not taking 3 units of HGH ED! ...plus he walks the talk too..he has less than 10% BF and is wound tight...very very tight....and REALLY into anti-aging---and has sorta a rebel reputation too....

ps: if I am reading my BW which he has scribbled all over the place...(from my 1st round of BW test back in January)...I think he wants for my DHEA to be 350! I could be wrong....but...I would not doubt it...

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## Vettester

> okay...just called the doc..(nurse) and she told me my TOTAL T is 50 (just tested last week actually) ....and that my Free T is .8....and that my doc thinks that the Total T Bloodwork is a waste ....yes... that is what she said....but she did not tell me why he said this since she could not nail him down for an answer...but I asked her to find out why he thinks testing for Total T is a waste---I do know this about my doc: he is VERY aggressive in treatment....he is.,,,for example he is upset with me for not taking 3 units of HGH ED! ...plus he walks the talk too..he has less than 10% BF and is wound tight...very very tight....and REALLY into anti-aging---and has sorta a rebel reputation too....
> 
> ps: if I am reading my BW which he has scribbled all over the place...(from my 1st round of BW test back in January)...I think he wants for my DHEA to be 350! I could be wrong....but...I would not doubt it...


There are a few different types of doctors mindsets. Most of the time, as many of the guys here will attest, it's the doctor who treats the score, not the patient, which in most cases means little if any treatment for the patient who is at the low end of the charts. Slimmer, in your case, I like to refer that type of doctor mindset as the 'bull in the china shop doc'. It's the opposite of the other type, where the doctor tends to feel enough ain't enough. Usually the docs who practice that aggressively are usually closely associated with a internal compounding pharmacy, which in turn has major incentives on product sales. In fact, a doctor and/or consultant to the doctor could theoretically have a major portion of their compensation package tied up in sales distribution of products. Let's face it, that's where the margins are. Can you imagine the markup on your compound creams?

As far as the total test goes, that's just plain crazy. As I read it, your free test is about 1.6%, which is pretty normal. The amount of actual free & bio-available testosterone is for the most part dependent on the actual amount of the total serum. You could deviate this with lowering your SHBG, but for the most part you will have the same percentage whether your total test serum is 50 or 25. So if your total was 25, your free test would be .4 (based on if your score is measured in ng/dl), but your percentage would remain fixed at/around 1.6%. I would love to hear your doctor's rationale on why the total serum score is a "waste."

Just send me the extra GH that you don't want - Problem solved  :Smilie:

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## PPC

> Update time. 
> 
> I've been off BC for over a month. I just got back my blood test and I was hoping for some input from other members. 
> 
> LH 5.6 
> T 14
> DHEA 79.1
> Estradiol 83.1
> 
> Thank you!


First thing I'm seeing is your T. Pressing forward in life with a total that low will be difficult. But we don't want to get away with ourselves because you had only been off birth control for one month at the time of the testing.

It may be hard to tell what these levels mean....have you had a period since the pill? If so, do you know what day of your cycle these tests were taken? That will help clue us in.

While E (estrogen) at 83 may be okay during your period....at any other time it is too low. Most premenopausal women stay above 100, sometimes well over 2-300 and then dip just below 100 for their period. Think back to how you feel at your period. Most of us have low mood due to low E levels causing lack of seritonin. We have more aches and pains. Most of us feel our worst at that time. You don't want to be in that state constantly. 

Dr Elizabeth Vilet offers the following numbers as a good guage for E levels for premenopausal women. You'll notice we have 2 estrogen peaks. Most women try to test on day 18-21 to catch their second peak. If you are only 83 during that time...you are likely missing out on better well being and health.


menstrual phase (days 1-4) 80-90
follicular phase (days 4-14) average 200
follicular phase peak 350-500
follicular phase average (days 14-26) 200
luteal phase peak 200-300
premenstrual phase (day 26-28) E2 drops sharply (she does not give numbers for this drop)

Your T level: If a premenopausal woman is a natural low T type - not much natural muscle tone or body hair, then she may be in the 20-30 total T area. A healthy range is 40-60 but many athletic women are naturally quite a bit higher than that. Some labs have the top of the level at 100. My mom just got her total T levels back while on T cream and they were 87. Her doc was pleased and her libido is real high.

Your level is similar to what many untreated menopausal women have. Maybe it will take a few more months off BC, your ovaries will wake up a little more and your numbers will come up. This current T level may be even higher than what you were on BC. If nothing changes in the next little while, then I think your life will really improve by adding these hormones that are on the very low side.

I don't see a progesterone level...did your doc test that? It will be important.

Your dhea level is low. Optimum is close to 200 for a woman. Are you supplementing with any dhea right now? 

Most importantly, how do you feel? Are you doing okay?

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## PPC

> okay...just called the doc..(nurse) and she told me my TOTAL T is 50 (just tested last week actually) ....and that my Free T is .8....and that my doc thinks that the Total T Bloodwork is a waste ....yes... that is what she said....but she did not tell me why he said this since she could not nail him down for an answer...but I asked her to find out why he thinks testing for Total T is a waste---I do know this about my doc: he is VERY aggressive in treatment....he is.,,,for example he is upset with me for not taking 3 units of HGH ED! ...plus he walks the talk too..he has less than 10% BF and is wound tight...very very tight....and REALLY into anti-aging---and has sorta a rebel reputation too....
> 
> ps: if I am reading my BW which he has scribbled all over the place...(from my 1st round of BW test back in January)...I think he wants for my DHEA to be 350! I could be wrong....but...I would not doubt it...


Slimmer was your total T at 50 a natural number or was that while using T cream? 50 is a nice score. Your free T is okay...some would like it higher but if you're taking HGH, there can be almost a layering effect and less T is needed. They are both repair hormones, so less T is needed by the body.

I would not try to get your dhea any higher than it is. Most BHRT docs that I have read aim to get female dhea around 200. If you go much higher than that and include exogenous T aswell, there can be some personality aggression that occurs and some physical side effects. Not saying that is always the case though.

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## PPC

> Just send me the extra GH that you don't want - Problem solved


 I'll get in line for the GH leftovers. I would like me some of that.

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## BengalWoman

> First thing I'm seeing is your T. Pressing forward in life with a total that low will be difficult. But we don't want to get away with ourselves because you had only been off birth control for one month at the time of the testing.
> 
> It may be hard to tell what these levels mean....have you had a period since the pill? If so, do you know what day of your cycle these tests were taken? That will help clue us in.
> 
> While E (estrogen) at 83 may be okay during your period....at any other time it is too low. Most premenopausal women stay above 100, sometimes well over 2-300 and then dip just below 100 for their period. Think back to how you feel at your period. Most of us have low mood due to low E levels causing lack of seritonin. We have more aches and pains. Most of us feel our worst at that time. You don't want to be in that state constantly. 
> 
> Dr Elizabeth Vilet offers the following numbers as a good guage for E levels for premenopausal women. You'll notice we have 2 estrogen peaks. Most women try to test on day 18-21 to catch their second peak. If you are only 83 during that time...you are likely missing out on better well being and health.
> 
> 
> ...


PPC - Thanks for your help! I'll try and answer all of your questions. 

The blood test were done 6 days after the start of my cycle. (Done for 3 days). 

The doctor did not test progesterone. I asked her but no response yet. 

I am not supplementing DHEA at this time. But can do easily.  :Wink/Grin: 

I do not feel like me! Libido sucks and life wears on me. And these damn doctors that are suppose to be helping everyone just put up road blocks. 

Do you take pregnanolone? That too I can do easily. 

Again thanks for all of your input.  :Welcome:

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## BengalWoman

> YOU are welcome! (I have wondered though why he wants for my DHEA to be higher)...anyway---I need to really focus on BW test and get the numbers really secure in my head so I can help answer these kind of questions...
> 
> question: was the Estradiol from bloodwork? want to verify----as opposed to saliva----I have heard that saliva hormone testing scores higher---just confirming----as we await PPC!


SlimmerMe - Thanks for your help! I (and others) appreciate it! 

The E from from bloodwork. Since my doctor already told me that Kaiser will not address any T issues - I'll likely be going to the specialists.

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## SlimmerMe

> Slimmer was your total T at 50 a natural number or was that while using T cream? 50 is a nice score. Your free T is okay...some would like it higher but if you're taking HGH, there can be almost a layering effect and less T is needed. They are both repair hormones, so less T is needed by the body.
> 
> I would not try to get your dhea any higher than it is. Most BHRT docs that I have read aim to get female dhea around 200. If you go much higher than that and include exogenous T aswell, there can be some personality aggression that occurs and some physical side effects. Not saying that is always the case though.


thanks PPC!!!....what kind of side effects with high DHEA....other than aggression which I was told I had this summer by a close friend oddly enough...what physical sides? please elaborate...

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## SlimmerMe

> SlimmerMe - Thanks for your help! I (and others) appreciate it! 
> 
> The E from from bloodwork. Since my doctor already told me that Kaiser will not address any T issues - I'll likely be going to the specialists.


you are most welcome!

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## SlimmerMe

by the way....there are no left overs....I got the very last drop! going cold turkey for awhile....

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## PPC

> PPC - Thanks for your help! I'll try and answer all of your questions. 
> 
> The blood test were done 6 days after the start of my cycle. (Done for 3 days). 
> 
> The doctor did not test progesterone. I asked her but no response yet. 
> 
> I am not supplementing DHEA at this time. But can do easily. 
> 
> I do not feel like me! Libido sucks and life wears on me. And these damn doctors that are suppose to be helping everyone just put up road blocks. 
> ...



By the time you took this test, estradiol should have been rising. Six days after the start of your cycle, E is in an upward trend. If 83 is indicative of your upward trend then help may be needed along the way with a compounded E cream with both estradiol and estriol. Raising your E levels helps you cope with the stress of life. Things are jjust gloomy with low E. But you may want to give it a another month or two and see if your own ovaries want to put out more. I think you will end up needing a good doc that specializes in female hormonal issues (the AA type). There will definitely be a need to test for progesterone.

DHEA can help with lagging libido in females. I don't think it goes as far as T does to get it up there but I noticed a mild libido boost when I started using it. It's just good to take anyway since it is a powerful immune booster and helps protect against breast cancer. 

Most women cannot tolerate more than 20 mg of DHEA. Acne is the first sign that you are going too high. My dose is 10mg per day. I use a brand that has bioperine in it for better absorbtion. I have tried increasing the dose 3 times and I always end up with acne on my chin when I do, but that's just me. Going back down to 10 mg - the acne disappears. It seems to take about a month on a certain dose to notice results and side effects.

I have tried using pregnenolone. I did a trial with a lipid matrix brand that is supposed to bypass the liver. The dose was 150 mg. I did fine until I was in the part of my cycle where I have to add my progesterone. The combination of these two was too much for me. I got headaches, brain fog and my cycle got messed up. I believe my dose was too high. Pregnenolone apparently swims downstream into progesterone so I was just overdosing on that likely. I need to try again at a better dose sometime like 50 mg.

Pregnenolone will not raise your estrogen or your testosterone and those are the ones you are lacking on your tests. It may help with your cortisol and progesterone. Using a low dose probably would not hurt you but won't fill the othe other gaping holes.


I believe using exogenous T will ultimately help your libido and energy levels. Sometimes it takes a while for T receptors to open up and for one to 'feel' the changes. You have not had much circulating T in your body for a long time so it will be interesting to see how long it takes for your receptors to open up and for cell changes to occur if you start using T.

My Mom used a T cream for 6 months with no libido change, but then it gradually climbed and now she is constantly chasing my Dad LOL. I noticed the effects of T much sooner than that. I actually had to lower my dose due to hypersexual feelings and a bit of a personality change that occured. T is a powerful hormone in females it seems and it is a big brain space changer. On too high a dose, I was less tolerant of my children and more ready to be combative with my husband - awful. There is that 'just right' dose for every individual but it's not always the easiest road getting there. It's worth it though.

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## PPC

> thanks PPC!!!....what kind of side effects with high DHEA....other than aggression which I was told I had this summer by a close friend oddly enough...what physical sides? please elaborate...


Acne is a biggie. Oilier skin. Body hair growth. Chin hair growth. Sometimes these physical symptoms won't manifest but the personality ones need to be watched. I didn't get body or chin hair growth but I did get some new pubic hair - strange.

I noticed less tolerance, more aggression. I am usually laid back and mostly patient with my family. This changed. I felt like I was no longer willing to put up with anything from anybody. Way less passive. I'm very close to my brother, he told me I had turned into a 'be-itch'. Lowering doses really helped with all of this.

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## SlimmerMe

> Acne is a biggie. Oilier skin. Body hair growth. Chin hair growth. Sometimes these physical symptoms won't manifest but the personality ones need to be watched. I didn't get body or chin hair growth but I did get some new pubic hair - strange.
> 
> I noticed less tolerance, more aggression. I am usually laid back and mostly patient with my family. This changed. I felt like I was no longer willing to put up with anything from anybody. Way less passive. I'm very close to my brother, he told me I had turned into a 'be-itch'. Lowering doses really helped with all of this.


thanks...acne has been a problem for months...I just assumed it was the testosterone I was taking..so I bet the 2 together really put me into teenage mode! Yep....the aggression comment from my friend did make me take notice..

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## SlimmerMe

To Vette re: Total Test BW vs. Free Test BW....having to re-read over and over to "get it!" thanks...hoping to find out why the doc does not like the Total Test BW

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## flatscat

OP and all, - what an awesome thread! Can't believe I missed it - thanks vette.

So basically low E, T and P lead to a lot of the same symptoms us guys have? Along with the problems mentioned with cycles?

Also can you comment on how/if the cycle issues due to the imbalance of E and P could result in pH problems?

Think my AA doc is fixen to get a new patient! 

Thanks again,

flats

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## zaggahamma

> OP and all, - what an awesome thread! Can't believe I missed it - thanks vette.
> 
> So basically low E, T and P lead to a lot of the same symptoms us guys have? Along with the problems mentioned with cycles?
> 
> Also can you comment on how/if the cycle issues due to the imbalance of E and P could result in pH problems?
> 
> Think my AA doc is fixen to get a new patient! 
> 
> Thanks again,
> ...


if she doesnt crack u with the cast iron first

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## flatscat

> if she doesnt crack u with the cast iron first


which is entirely possible. If I go more than three days from this point on without posting again - you know I am A.R.T.

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## zaggahamma

dem womens dont need no harmones just to be dealt with ruggedness

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## PPC

> OP and all, - what an awesome thread! Can't believe I missed it - thanks vette.
> 
> So basically low E, T and P lead to a lot of the same symptoms us guys have? Along with the problems mentioned with cycles?
> 
> Also can you comment on how/if the cycle issues due to the imbalance of E and P could result in pH problems?
> 
> Think my AA doc is fixen to get a new patient! 
> 
> Thanks again,
> ...


By PH problems....I'm not sure what you mean...do you mean vaginal PH where the vagina becomes inbalanced and this can lead to infections etc....yes that can happen. Maybe you mean something else...ph and diet? Sorry, I'm confused.

What sort of menstrual cycle problems are you referring to?

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## Vettester

I presumed flats was talking about the 'potential hydrogen'; meaning she might have unbalanced alkalinity or acidity. Hopefully flats will see this fairly soon.

Good to see you around, PPC!

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## flatscat

taking this one to the pm realm

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## SlimmerMe

*This thread needs to be a sticky*

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## laurahill

libido can be curable,it can be treated by using some generic medicines like lovegra.

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## mkt

wow. I've just had my first cycle after being off bc for just over a month. I've been on it for ten years during which time i settled for, married and then divorced a disaster of a person and then remained semi-depressed and stagnating for nearly five years. My muscle tone is a mess despite relatively frequent training. I was afraid to go off of it because I always felt nuts if i missed a day. I wonder now if i was just in a weird hormone induced hazy depression that whole time. And I thought it was helping me!

Then my wellness doc said enough. she also put me on hgh and test (in fact a new set of labs just came back and my test and hgh STILL look low). my libido is through the roof, a bit too through the roof for someone without constant access to man parts and an office job, and I can't wait to see what becomes of my skinny flabby bod.

wish me luck all!

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## qkcam

"Now I do use my T in injectable form. Very small doses twice a week, a total of 8 mg per week. I was doing 10 but felt very hyper sexual. I may go back up and see if that is no longer such an issue. I have used T transdermals. Injecting is cheaper for me. I find it more potent."

hi i am curious if you are still using injectable T and what type? i am experimenting with a low dose Enthanate.. 20mg 1x a week.. does it create any issue with water retention for you?
thanks hope you are doing well...

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