# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Is Israel getting ready to go it alone?

## Kratos

Israeli air force have practiced simulated strikes at Iran's nuclear facilities using airspace of at least two unidentified Arab countries, a newspaper published in east Jerusalem reported.

According to Al Manar paper, several Israeli combat jets carried out in late February bombing drills "targeting" known Iranian nuclear sites "in two Arab countries in the Persian Gulf, which are close territorially with the Islamic republic and cooperate with Israel on this issue."

Al Manar said Israel had received the permission to use the airspace from the top leadership of these countries and Washington "gave a blessing" to Tel Aviv to conduct these exercises.

Israel gets ready to strike at Iran's nuclear sites - media

Israeli air force have practiced simulated strikes at Iran's nuclear facilities using airspace of at least two unidentified Arab countries, a newspaper published in east Jerusalem reported.

According to Al Manar paper, several Israeli combat jets carried out in late February bombing drills "targeting" known Iranian nuclear sites "in two Arab countries in the Persian Gulf, which are close territorially with the Islamic republic and cooperate with Israel on this issue."

Al Manar said Israel had received the permission to use the airspace from the top leadership of these countries and Washington "gave a blessing" to Tel Aviv to conduct these exercises.



Despite broad international efforts to persuade Tehran to halt its uranium enrichment, both the United States and Israel have not ruled out military action if diplomacy fails to resolve the dispute over Iran's nuclear program.

Iran, which is currently under three sets of UN sanctions for refusing to halt uranium enrichment, insists it needs nuclear technology to generate electricity, while Western powers suspect it of pursuing an atomic weapons program.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has recently called for the international community to impose a new set of 'crippling' sanctions on Iran to make the Islamic republic scrap its controversial nuclear program.

MOSCOW, March 29 (RIA Novosti)

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100329/158340236.html

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## Swifto

I dont think Israel has the fire power, man power or support to go it alone. It would NEED support.

They aure as **** didnt give a shit about their relations with the UK though. I couldnt have really seen those assasins on fake US documents, could you?

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## Mooseman33

i think they have the fire power to go at iran alone....

and i think we are all going to find out sooner then later....

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## Swifto

> i think they have the fire power to go at iran alone....
> 
> and i think we are all going to find out sooner then later....


Ok, fire power, yes.

But would they do it without the USA's blessing?

Or would the USA use Israel as a pawn to get rid of Iran?

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## Mooseman33

i think they have made it clear they will go at it without the usa.

obama is no friend to israel, he is a muslim.

but i do think we are allowing them to handle this problem for us, good call...

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## Swifto

> i think they have made it clear they will go at it without the usa.
> 
> obama is no friend to israel, he is a muslim.
> 
> but i do think we are allowing them to handle this problem for us, good call...


The USA would make out publicly that they didnt support Israel (if they did attack Iran), but would probably secretly be funding it, even if Israel/Iran were at war.

They'll let Israel attack Iran, it saves them doing it and if it went tits up they would distance themselves from Israel.

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## Kratos

> i think they have made it clear they will go at it without the usa.
> 
> obama is no friend to israel, he is a muslim.
> 
> but i do think we are allowing them to handle this problem for us, good call...


I think the question is, can the be effective without the US

They've bought tunnel boaring machines from the germans...I'm guessing they're smart enough to put their nuclear facilities far enough below ground that an airstirke will not set them back for too long.

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## Kratos

> The USA would make out publicly that they didnt support Israel (if they did attack Iran), but would probably secretly be funding it, even if Israel/Iran were at war.
> 
> They'll let Israel attack Iran, it saves them doing it and if it went tits up they would distance themselves from Israel.


The US will be blamed no matter what
they have to use Iraqi air space
meaning they'll have to tell the US even if it's moments before the strike

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## quarry206

*Iran*
budget-20 billion
Personal-420,000
tanks- 1800
Aircraft carrier/ amphibious assault ship-0
cruiser-
desroyer-4
frigate-5
corvette-3
nuclear submarine
submarine-10
fighter aircraft-359
nuclear weapons
*military personal*
Active-945,000
Reserve-125,000
Paramilitary-11,000,000
total-12,070,000


*Israel*
budget-12 billion
tanks-3650
Aircraft carrier/ amphibious assault ship-0
cruiser-0
desroyer-0
frigate-0
corvette-3
nuclear submarine
submarine-5
fighter aircraft-497
nuclear weapons-80
*military personal*
Active-176,500
Reserve-445,000
Paramilitary-7,650
total-629,150


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tary_equipment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._active_troops

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## quarry206

I personally don't feel they have the fire power to take on Iran alone. because of the simple fact other countries will help Iran. If the US does not come to Israel's aid, Israel will have nothing left.

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## Kratos

> I personally don't feel they have the fire power to take on Iran alone. because of the simple fact other countries will help Iran. If the US does not come to Israel's aid, Israel will have nothing left.


this is an interesting read for you
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/we...ngerintro.html

who's going to come to Iran's aid?
they're all alone and too far away to use any of their military assets except for hezbollah.

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## Chase Hard

I don't think Israel would do it without the US. Because US supports Israel, One of osama bin ladens main requests is US Stop supporting Israel. Though Obama has been giving Israel crap about building jewish property on palestines land creating more tension recently. Also Iran hates US as much as Israel. 
I'd think the US might have learnt its lesson a bit with Iraq and wont go crashing into Iran anytime soon. But if anyone does i'm pressuming it will be lead by Israel not the US. 
Such a crazy part of the world.

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## Kratos

> Such a crazy part of the world.


They'll be fighting in the middle east long after the oil is gone...and you know what they'll be fighting with?








Sticks and cammels

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## quarry206

Well I have no sources to reference, or anything..

but I have spent 30months of my life in the middle east, and worked directly with people from many of the countries around the area. and from my understanding of how many of them view Muslim law, and key point is how the common person view it, not meaning it does or does not say it.. if Jews (Israel) attacked a Muslim nation, which Iran is, (Iraq is not, it has a secular government. though popular believe in America is different). . I do believe that even if not directly, indirectly a lot of Muslim nations will aid with air stripes, money, weapons or even soldiers.

heck I even feel that they could try invading Iraq in some sort of weird get back at US (even if we didn't help Israel) because without getting into it on an open forum, If Iran desired to do that you would probably see 10,000 of US soldiers die over night that are at some of the bases in Iraq still. . . I mean Iran has sent soldiers into Iraq a few times lately just to test their limits.

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## quarry206

> They'll be fighting in the middle east long after the oil is gone...and you know what they'll be fighting with?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sticks and cammels


totally agree, in our kids life times they will not see total piece in the middle east.

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## Older lifter

Well what other option, keep waiting for the UN (United Nothings) to talk and talk and talk until they fire there first nuck (possibly at Israel).

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## durak

> *Iran*
> budget-20 billion
> Personal-420,000
> tanks- 1800
> Aircraft carrier/ amphibious assault ship-0
> cruiser-
> desroyer-4
> frigate-5
> corvette-3
> ...


whats your point? nukes make personnel pointless.

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## durak

> I don't think Israel would do it without the US. Because US supports Israel, One of osama bin ladens main requests is US Stop supporting Israel. Though Obama has been giving Israel crap about building jewish property on palestines land creating more tension recently. Also Iran hates US as much as Israel. 
> I'd think the US might have learnt its lesson a bit with Iraq and wont go crashing into Iran anytime soon. But if anyone does i'm pressuming it will be lead by Israel not the US. 
> Such a crazy part of the world.


- it is not palestinian land

- Iran does not hate israel. iran in fact has a large jewish population. the leadership uses it as a wedge to direct anger away from themselves.

-Learned a lesson from iraq? from the way i see it we now have a huge military foothold in the middle east. look at a map, iran is sandwiched between afganistan and iraq...

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## durak

> Well I have no sources to reference, or anything..
> 
> but I have spent 30months of my life in the middle east, and worked directly with people from many of the countries around the area. and from my understanding of how many of them view Muslim law, and key point is how the common person view it, not meaning it does or does not say it.. if Jews (Israel) attacked a Muslim nation, which Iran is, (Iraq is not, it has a secular government. though popular believe in America is different). . I do believe that even if not directly, indirectly a lot of Muslim nations will aid with air stripes, money, weapons or even soldiers.
> 
> heck I even feel that they could try invading Iraq in some sort of weird get back at US (even if we didn't help Israel) because without getting into it on an open forum, If Iran desired to do that you would probably see 10,000 of US soldiers die over night that are at some of the bases in Iraq still. . . I mean Iran has sent soldiers into Iraq a few times lately just to test their limits.


- there is no way iran could kill 10,000 soldiers out of the blue.
- the rest of the middle east is terrified of iran getting nukes as well. The governments may not say so publically but they support taking out irans nuclear program. And yes I do have official state department sources for that.

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## Kratos

> . I do believe that even if not directly, indirectly a lot of Muslim nations will aid with air stripes, money, weapons or even soldiers.
> 
> .


Nobody likes iran except the total shit hole countries that can't do anything. 


Saudi's hate Iran with many years of stressed relations
and don't want them to have the bomb.
Even if they're shooting at Israel...think about it, how would people in Florida feel about the possibility of someone hitting Canada with a nuke.

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## FranciscoG

Can I put in a bet?

I bet all talk and no balls, like the last 4 years.

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## durak

The problem is Obama has shunned them. In shunning them they lose confidence that we will deal with iran AND we lose the ability to keep them from going on their own.

For those that say Israel cannot do it alone: We have already supplied them with enough hardware to get the job done. If we do not give them air access, then they can go via turkey (and yes turkey would let them) or launch via subs. If they do attack, nukes will probably be used because it is the only way to get at the deep bunkers iran has created.

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## FranciscoG

> The problem is Obama has shunned them. In shunning them they lose confidence that we will deal with iran AND we lose the ability to keep them from going on their own.
> 
> For those that say Israel cannot do it alone: We have already supplied them with enough hardware to get the job done. If we do not give them air access, then they can go via turkey (and yes turkey would let them) or launch via subs. If they do attack, nukes will probably be used because it is the *only way to get at the deep bunkers iran has created*.


Exactly. Deep bunkers built into mountains on some sites. 

Anyone that sugar coats this like it is going to be a boy scout badge of the month is just not being real.

So what happens to all the fall out from the nukes?

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## durak

it will get very ugly. the problem is not iran or the middle east. it is the reaction from china and russia. currently china and russia enable iran in order to keep our focus off them and on iran. unfortunately this means lots of "advisors" and civilians from their countries are at these nuke sites. that is the real fallout.

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## FranciscoG

> it will get very ugly. the problem is not iran or the middle east. it is the reaction from china and russia. currently china and russia enable iran in order to keep our focus off them and on iran. unfortunately this means lots of "advisors" and civilians from their countries are at these nuke sites. that is the real fallout.


Exactly,

I skip the racist point of view that many have here. Regardless of ethnic or religious origion they are human. 

Fallout from any nukes dropped will have negative effect.

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## quarry206

> *- there is no way iran could kill 10,000 soldiers out of the blue.*- the rest of the middle east is terrified of iran getting nukes as well. The governments may not say so publically but they support taking out irans nuclear program. And yes I do have official state department sources for that.



I was speaking of the soldiers at bases in iraq, that if Iran wanted to hurt America just to do it (which i agree is a long long long shot that they would try something like that).. the security and protection of American soldiers in Iraq since the SOFA agreement is very horrible. . . Obama pulled to many combat soldiers out way too fast.

Though a full force fight I do not see a country in the world that could take us head to head. People in America have this idea we are untouchable, but really the US military is very under trained, and if you ask anybody in the military they will tell you the amount of shit bags they have let in and the extreme degree the military has lowered its standards to as far as discipline and readiness. . We as Americans think of 4,000-5,000 deaths as so so much. but if we fought a country that really fought back full force, or hit us when we weren't looking for it, 4,000 would be a small number.. Yes, we would do to them 10 times what they do to us. but please don't think they can't hurt us. 

second point... Israel will not use nukes. I highly highly doubt a nuke will be used by a country (maybe a terrorist group) ever again.

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## quarry206

> Nobody likes iran except the total shit hole countries that can't do anything. 
> 
> 
> Saudi's hate Iran with many years of stressed relations
> and don't want them to have the bomb.
> Even if they're shooting at Israel...think about it, how would people in Florida feel about the possibility of someone hitting Canada with a nuke.


no I do agree with you Kratos, Iran is not popular, but I do believe in some ways it will turn into "your enemies, enemy, is your friend"

and no I don't believe tons of aid will come their way. I do believe there will be little things and key points that other nations, and more importantly other "terrorist" groups or "freedom fighters" will help Iran, even if its just to hurt Israel more than just help Iran.

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## quarry206

> Can I put in a bet?
> 
> I bet all talk and no balls, like the last 4 years.


totally agree... I feel nothing is going to happen. most of all this talk is just that.. talk...

we are talking about what if's not what we really believe will happen. truly Ibelieve Israel and Iran will not go to war. even if there is an air strike

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## FranciscoG

> totally agree... I feel nothing is going to happen. most of all this talk is just that.. talk...
> 
> we are talking about what if's not what we really believe will happen. truly Ibelieve Israel and Iran will not go to war. even if there is an air strike


Not all directed at you:


Israel has been talking the talk and not walking the walk on this issue since 2005 (first article released that I could find) maybe they have a good luck strategy. They will talk shit for 7 years before doing shit.

Maybe it will turn out as good as the 2006, 30 day, war with Hezbollah... Lol
Or better yet the 1982-2000 Lebanon War.

I recall a quote or better yet a line of thought from JFK in 1962. He stated that a nation losses face once its leaders threaten to take action but fail to follow through.

I find history to be self-repeating. Ironic, in 2002 everyone thought Iraq invasion would be simple. An Iraq that had no WMD. Looking back at the last 8 years it has not been some simple action.

Today, another dream, Iran´s forces are though to be pussies or ¨not as advanced¨ ¨ohhh yeeee of little faith how quickly you forget the listens of years past¨

What no one has mentioned on this thread is air space issue over Iraq and the Persian Gulf. Who controls that? And what happens when IDF forces are picked up on radar? US AF is not a buncha dumb asses nor are they ignorant as to the regulations to follow. Once another military enters those air spaces a chain reaction occurs with the USAF. So no action taking place on those air spaces can proceed without daddy knowing.

As for Turkey. I think not. Turkey did not even allow USAF that had a base in eastern Turkey to invade Iraq/or use that base to invade Iraw from there. Turks are not arabs BTW...

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## FranciscoG

Israel´s WMDs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvJdg...eature=related

 :Smilie:

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## quarry206

> israel´s wmds:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjdg...eature=related


lmao

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## durak

> Israel´s WMDs:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvJdg...eature=related


Nice.

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## gymmonster

> it will get very ugly. the problem is not iran or the middle east. it is the reaction from china and russia. currently china and russia enable iran in order to keep our focus off them and on iran. unfortunately this means lots of "advisors" and civilians from their countries are at these nuke sites. that is the real fallout.


l agree with this one. If its war with iran thats one thing but russia or china 
stepping in could make for a very big war. War with iran l think will lead to a lot of decision making from all sides someone will help them in one way or another, and someone would probably help isreal. Thats pretty serious.

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## durak

And to answer the original post question: I do think israel will attack. They are being put in a no win position. Better to fight and possibly make it. if they don't there will be a nuke cloud over their country sooner than later.

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## Mr.Rose

I think you yanks should put your money where your mouth is. Why is everyone so distraught over Iran having nuclear weapons, when America has the largest supply of ARMED nuclear weapons on the planet.... oh wait i forgot, its ok because its your country. If America is so hell bent on getting rid of everyone's nuclear weapons, then they should get rid of theirs, not just store them away for later use. This is just another clear case of a large super power wanting more power and control by flexing their biceps.

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## Mr.Rose

Also, do you think Iran would actually launch any? If they do, then they will literally get wiped of the map by every other country in the world... even their own people.

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## Kingweb50

> Also, do you think Iran would actually launch any? If they do, then they will literally get wiped of the map by every other country in the world... even their own people.



Yes. I believe Ahmadinejad is crazy enough to use them. That is one of the things he is always talking about wiping out Israel. I dont blame Israel for wanting to try to destroy Irans progress. Do you think if there was a country by Aus. that says when I get nuclear weapons I am going to destroy your country you will just be like ok good luck with making your bombs.

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## Mr.Rose

Israel has every right to investigate and defend itself, but i still stand by my statement that Ahmadinejad will not attack anyone, period. My main point is that the US is not in this for the right reasons, they couldnt give two fuks whether the Israelis where safe or not.

Also if someone was to try and bomb Aus, i would be like good luck with that. You see i have no ties to no country, and i setup no home in no country, i may hold a citizenship in two countries, but that doesnt mean they are my home, i dont call any country my home, but i do call this planet my home.

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## Mr.Rose

Oh, and don't think i am for nuclear, fission, hydrogen, weapons. I am for the knowledge of the technology, you know to forward the human race and to have defenses just in case... well maybe an alien attack, hahaha, but seriously. But i condone the use of such weapons on OURSELVES.

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## Kratos

> Israel has every right to investigate and defend itself, but i still stand by my statement that Ahmadinejad will not attack anyone, period. .


I think the bigger question for israel is if he will take propper security measures. There are people who would try to put the thing in the back of a pickup truck if they could get it into israel that way. Not that I'm saying that would work. But I'm sure they could think of some low budget shitty way to get the job done...who ever thought a 767 would be what brought down the WTC?
Point is he'd let the terrorists have one, and it'd be impossible to know weather it came from north korea, china, soviet, pak, or iran.

Clearly if they do a nuclear missle lauch, Iran will be nuked so hard it will become a glass desert.

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## marocknroll

i think Israël Will make USA do this war for them.

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## gymmonster

> i think Israël Will make USA do this war for them.


that wont happen

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## durak

Not with obama. They may go it alone.

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## FranciscoG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJpfw...eature=related

LOL... Even with half of all Israeli Air Force it would still be a limited hit.

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## amcon

the us is always the police in this type of case, and always called the problem... if the shoe was on the other foot how would it be any diff... we fight and support what we feel is best for us. 

as for should we help - yes we should we might as well we will be blamed any how. and if we take decisive action we could gain respect... that is how these people think any ways right?

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## Kratos

> i think Israël Will make USA do this war for them.


Obama is not a fan of Israel like Bush was.

And Israel can't do much damage without the US.

I'd say Israel is past the half way point in it's life as a nation.

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## Kratos

> the us is always the police in this type of case, and always called the problem... if the shoe was on the other foot how would it be any diff... we fight and support what we feel is best for us. 
> 
> as for should we help - yes we should we might as well we will be blamed any how. and if we take decisive action we could gain respect... that is how these people think any ways right?


Another endless war is not sounding so good right now. IDK what the answer is. It would be nice if Iran were welcome to a partnership where we could show them how to secure their nuclear program like we had planned to do before the Islamic overthrow of the gvmt in the late 70's.

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## FranciscoG

> Obama is not a fan of Israel like Bush was.
> 
> And Israel can't do much damage without the US.
> 
> I'd say Israel *is past the half way point* in it's life as a nation.


As long as they are on Welfare they will be fine. Sure does add another meaning to welfare state!Lol.

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## Kratos

> As long as they are on Welfare they will be fine. Sure does add another meaning to welfare state!Lol.


I doubt the middle east is going to provide the US with the same amount of oil 20 to 30 years down the road as they do today.

It will be interesting to see how much we care about Israel then.

right now the Middle East is split in two loose alliences

You have the US, and decreasingly Europe, Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuait, Jordan
with the US being the glue and oil being the reason it's all held together.

Iraq is in the middle, cause you don't know what will happen when the US leaves them to govern themselves.

Then you have Iran, Yemen, Syria, and Lebanon (sort of)

The Arab people are somewhere in the middle. They like some things about western culture but some things these arab powers say ring true with them also.

None of the Arab nations have any love for Israel, letting the exist for now is just part of the price of doing business for now.

The furture of Israel as I see it is predicated on the bounty of oil left to be harvested.

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## JasonT

> Obama is not a fan of Israel like Bush was.
> 
> And Israel can't do much damage without the US.
> 
> I'd say Israel is past the half way point in it's life as a nation.


Obama doesn't make the decisions...US foreign policy was decided before he took office and arguably before he was even born. He just reads the words on the paper that's handed to him, "charismatically" I might add.

Whether we send troops alongside israel or not doesn't change the fact that the US has funded Israel since it's instantiation and continues to give more annual economic aid to them than the rest of the world combined.

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## quarry206

> Obama doesn't make the decisions...US foreign policy was decided before he took office and arguably before he was even born. He just reads the words on the paper that's handed to him, "charismatically" I might add.
> 
> Whether we send troops alongside israel or not doesn't change the fact that the US has funded Israel since it's instantiation and continues to give more annual economic aid to them than the rest of the world combined.


Obama as President makes the choice to or not to send troops anywhere in the world. . . so tho funding and foreign aid is written into law by past policies. If there was a War it is up to the President for the final say on if America helps out or not.

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## JasonT

> Obama as President makes the choice to or not to send troops anywhere in the world. . . so tho funding and foreign aid is written into law by past policies. If there was a War it is up to the President for the final say on if America helps out or not.


lol....is that what they told you?

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## Flagg

How many of you American guys actually like your country donating shed loads of cash, Israels way?

I mean yep, the whole debate of "Israel has the right to defend herself against islamic insurgents" has been beaten to death. However, surely the only reason she can defend herself in the first place is because of American funding. My history isn't the greatest but wasn't Israel always originally, an Arab state? 

Israel to me just comes across as a huge pain in the ass for America, in my opinion. With the financial state of the country, surely you have better things you could be spending your money on.

Like Kratos said, its a shame that the West cant form new ties with Iran over their nuclear program and even help them develop it. 

Whatever way you look at it, Israel declaring they are going to bomb any nuclear facilities that goes into production, is wrong, and I really don't like the fact that the US and UK are going to be forced to back up Israel in yet another pointless war in the Middle East.

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## FranciscoG

> How many of you American guys actually like your country donating shed loads of cash, Israels way?
> 
> I mean yep, the whole debate of "Israel has the right to defend herself against islamic insurgents" has been beaten to death. However, surely the only reason she can defend herself in the first place is because of American funding. My history isn't the greatest but wasn't Israel always originally, an Arab state? 
> 
> Israel to me just comes across as a huge pain in the ass for America, in my opinion. With the financial state of the country, surely you have better things you could be spending your money on.
> 
> Like Kratos said, its a shame that the West cant form new ties with Iran over their nuclear program and even help them develop it. 
> 
> Whatever way you look at it, Israel declaring they are going to bomb any nuclear facilities that goes into production, is wrong, and I really don't like the fact that the US and UK are going to be forced to back up Israel in yet another pointless war in the Middle East.


AIPAC, Arguably the most powerful organization in DC!

They have a good tactic. 

If your country happens to be borrowing money from, ohhhhhh China, to fund Israel and you FOR ANY reason do not support that they simply call you a racist!

You see the problem is not the individual citizens of the UK or US. The problem is our political leaders do not have balls.

So while all this goes on our welfare client does whatever she wants.

Make our VP look like a bitch --- Check
Tell the Arabs no matter what kind of peace is reached they will not remove troops from the West bank --- Check
Built new ¨settlement¨ while daddy demands that the welfare bitch should not --- Check

Help in anyway --- Hell no


I can not see one aspect that the nation of Israel adds positively to the US or UK, can you?

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## quarry206

> lol....is that what they told you?


then please explain to me who you think makes that choice.




because i do know that it has to be a president (the Commander in chief) sign for US troops on title 10 to enter another country that we do not have a SOFA with. .





> *Article II, Section 2*
> The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States


meaning he can send troops to war, "police actions", or "peace keeping" anytime he please's without asking permission, and depending on the size of force or branch he has 62days to 2 years to get funding from the executive branch.

this is also one of the reasons the U.S. Army has no Combat units or jobs in its Reserve forces, But each states national guard has all combat arms units to include two full Special Forces Groups.

Vietnam, Korea and gulf war are all perfect examples of presidents sending troops to war without it being declared or funded as a war.


Article I, Section 8 in simple terms says
_The “war powers” are defined in Article 2, Section 2. Congress declares war, while the president wages war._ 

here is a link if you would like to read the Constitution yourself.
http://www.senate.gov/civics/constit...on.htm#a2_sec2

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## AnimalJ

> whats your point? nukes make personnel pointless.


Ta Da.

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## durak

And they got more than 1 or 2 nukes fellas. Israel has more than enough military power to take care of any problem in the middle east. The only issue is non-middle east countries jumping in.

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## Kratos

> lol....is that what they told you?


paranoid much?

lets see, either our leaders are mindlessly following some peice of paper that an omnicent dead guy wrote before they were born that covers every possible situation...

or they are the people in power
I'm going to go with the dumb asses we elected making the poor decisions
why else would big corperations and israel waste money on lobbiests to bribe people who can't be swayed?

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## FranciscoG

> paranoid much?
> 
> lets see, either our leaders are mindlessly following some peice of paper that an omnicent dead guy wrote before they were born that covers every possible situation...
> 
> or they are the people in power
> I'm going to go with the dumb asses we elected making the poor decisions
> why else would big corperations and israel waste money on lobbiests to bribe people who can't be swayed?


I am just trying to understand how it is legal to have an organization that lobbies for the interests of another nation.

AIPAC = American Israeli political action comm


Do we have an ACCPAC (American chinese communist political action comm) ? No.

Do we have an IPAC (Iranian political action comm)? No.


Of course there are the Israeli spies that have been caught compromising the nation´s security. I just do not see it.

Call me stupid but I agreed with GWB when he said ¨You either stand with us or against us.¨

----------


## durak

> I am just trying to understand how it is legal to have an organization that lobbies for the interests of another nation.
> 
> AIPAC = American Israeli political action comm
> 
> 
> Do we have an ACCPAC (American chinese communist political action comm) ? No.
> 
> Do we have an IPAC (Iranian political action comm)? No.


Ummm... Yes.

Iranian American Political Action Committee: IAPAC www.iranianamericanpac.org/

Indo Chinese American Political Action Committee 
iapacusa.org/

At least the AIPAC (American Israeli political action comm) put American first... BTW israeli's can be dual citizens with the US.

----------


## FranciscoG

^^ They do not lobby for the interests of other nations.

IAPACUSA is organized by Vietnamese Chinese, Cambodian Chinese and Laotian Chinese in the United States of America.


Iranian American PAC is for Iranian Americans within the US not for Iranians to lobby Congress for the benefot of the Islamic Republic of Iran.http://www.iranianamericanpac.org/about/ms.shtml

Again there is not one lobbing organization that works for the interests of another nation.

Do we have an ACCPAC (American chinese communist political action comm) ? No.

Do we have an IPAC (Iranian political action comm)? No.

----------


## FranciscoG

> BTW israeli's can be dual citizens with the US.


Dual/multi citizenship, with respect to US laws, applies to any nation not just Israel.

One can be a Mexican-American-Brazilian.

If you are of Irish ancestory and you can prove it you are recognized by the Irish as a citizen. There are many examples.

Truth of the matter is I can not think of one greatly positive thing Israel does for the US.

----------


## durak

> ^^ They do not lobby for the interests of other nations.
> 
> IAPACUSA is organized by Vietnamese Chinese, Cambodian Chinese and Laotian Chinese in the United States of America.
> 
> 
> Iranian American PAC is for Iranian Americans http://www.iranianamericanpac.org/about/ms.shtml
> 
> *Again there is not one lobbing organization that works for the interests of another nation.*
> 
> ...


You don't think those organizations lobby on behalf of their home country? lol.... Thats kinda like say CAIR does not lobby on behalf of arab nations because they are for american and islamic relations.

To rephrase, you don't think Iranian American PAC gets money from non-american iranians and would never lobby for the interest of iran to have the "right" to atomic energy... lol....

I still say at least the Israeli's put American first.

----------


## Mooseman33

CAIR-muslim mafia..

great book fellas....what a bunch of crooked fvkts...

----------


## FranciscoG

> You don't think those organizations lobby on behalf of their home country? lol.... Thats kinda like say CAIR does not lobby on behalf of arab nations because they are for american and islamic relations.
> 
> To rephrase, you don't think Iranian American PAC gets money from non-american iranians and would never lobby for the interest of iran to have the "right" to atomic energy... lol....
> 
> I still say at least the Israeli's put American first.


Fair enough.

Post one speach or fund raising or what have you that has been pro Islamic Iranian government by the Iranian American PAC.

fact of the matter is there is none! Iranian Americans fleed to the US post islamic revolution and do not support that government. But hey I may be wrong so post a source that proves your point.

As for the Israeli PAC putting America first I just do not agree and history is against you there:

5/02/09 Government Drops Case Against Accused AIPAC Spies A trial would have exposed too many U.S. government intelligence secrets, policy making and agents of influence (e.g. Rep. Jane Harman, etc) 
4/22/09 Rep. Jane Harman Denies Lobbying for Accused AIPAC Spies Telephone intercepts --Israelis would deny donations to Pelosi unless she appointed Harman as chair of intelligence committee, provided Harman pushed government to drop trial of accused spies. As chair of committee, Harman would have access to top U.S. intelligence info. 
3/12/09 Breaking the Taboo on Israel's Spying Efforts on the United States Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the U.S., yet public discussion about it is almost nil. 

6/12/08 The Spy Who Loves Us Update on spying in America, article in The American Conservative magazine. Difficulty of Pentagon efforts to restrain spying, also Israeli companies manage key monitoring services. 

4/28/08 New Arrest of (retired) Spy Worked with same Israeli handler as Pollard, many more spies possible 
11/03/07 Rice, Others Told to Testify in AIPAC Case 

10/22/06 Feds Probe Top Democrat as Agent for AIPAC amazing that such investigations don't get squashed---U.S. intelligence agents & prosecutors not in pocket of The Lobby 
8/18/05 U.S. Diplomat in Iraq Mentioned in AIPAC Indictment case 

8/9/05 Bigger than AIPAC -- "FBI has got hold of a dangerous loose end of much larger story. By pulling on that string hard enough, the FBI and the Justice Department might just unravel that larger story, which is beginning to look more and more like it involves the same nexus of Pentagon civilians, White House functionaries, and American Enterprise Institute officials who thumped the drums for war in Iraq in 2001-2003 and who are now trying to whip up an anti-Iranian frenzy as well." 
8/5/05 AIPAC lobby officials indicted -- long list of secret information transferred to Israeli Embassy 

8/5/05 Britain secretly sold Israel heavy water for nukes in 1958, declassified documents have revealed and French helped too-- not true that all given or allowed by Washington

7/31/05 Neocons, Forgeries & Spies the Federal probes 
6/18/05 State of State Secrets by Justin Raimondo in the AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE 

6/12/05 Pentagon Analyst Indicted AIPAC case 
5/30/05 Why Did Feith Resign Raimondo Update 

5/29/05 Haaretz Report on AIPAC & Spy Charges 
5/08/05 Larry Franklin and Israeli Espionage 
5/05/05 All About Larry Franklin various Raimondo articles 

5/05/05 Defense Analyst (Franklin) Charged with disclosing classified info to Israeli lobbyists at AIPAC (65,000 members) 
5/05/05 Analysis: A rare peek at what really happened in AIPAC affair Haaretz Report 
4/25/05 Shaking Up Israel's Spy Nest--AIPAC scandal resurfaces --lots of interesting links --report by Justin Raimondo 

5/05/05 Scandal Stymies Israeli Effort to Pressure Tehran Forward report 
4/20/05 2 Senior AIPAC Employees Ousted -- for supplying stolen secrets to Israel 
3/17/05 Two AIPAC officials take paid leave over spy probe 
3/07/05 FBI Continuing AIPAC Investigation 

12/22/04 Israeli Hubris vs. America UPI --investigation continues 
12/17/04 FBI Steps Up AIPAC Espionage Probe Christian Science Monitor 

12/17/04 Israel's Fifth Column in Washington by Justin Raimondo, Editor Antiwar.com 
Spy Case Renews Debate Over Pro-Israel Lobby's Ties to Pentagon NY Times Europeans see case as Washington power struggle 
Leak Derails Investigation trail was leading to Israeli government spy contacts 
Analysis of AIPAC's methods-contacts always for Likud-against peace parties in Israel 

What Really Happened Report --how Fox News deleted all mention of Carl Cameron Report 
FBI & Israeli Spy -top Pentacon (Pentagon Neocon) civilian in Feith office--maybe just careless because Sharon gov. & neocons work so closely together-- --see Raimondo's wrapup on the phony Pentagon disinformation shop with many links AIPAC Officials Identified 

9/18/04 Evidence that Sharon Likud Agents Formulated U.S. Policies not representing Israel, but rather a faction -- FBI investigation 
9/17 Grand Jury Probe Moving Forward activists fear subpoenas-- FOREWARD 
9/11 FORWARD reports on reactions inside Jewish community to spying charge some Jews object to accusations of anti-semitism every time Israel opposed 

9/11 Neocons Blast Bush for not Blocking Spy Case 
9/9 How Foreign Press Sees AIPAC Spying News --viewed as internal power struggle in Washington between Israeli lobby and intelligence agencies 

9/6 20 Years of Neocon Spying and Betrayal details, details, security clearances, top U.S. weapons sold to China (by Israel), etc. COUNTERPUNCH 
9/6 Spy Case Renews Debate Over Pro-Israel Lobby's Ties to Pentagon NY Times 
9/6 Connecting the Dots case is battle by FBI & CIA against Likud dominance in Washington -- by Eric Margolis 

9/5 Analysis of AIPAC's methods-contacts 
8/31 AIPAC Agents Named -- so close to U.S. government that information & personnel interchangeable 
8/30 Leak Derails Investigation NY Times --trail was leading to Israeli government spy contacts 
8/29 FBI & Israeli Spy -top Pentacon (Pentagon Neocon) civilian in Feith office was also dual national Israeli Air Force officer--maybe just careless because Israeli Likud & Bush neoconservatives work together-- --also NY TIMES report 
Justin Raimondo Background Report on Spying on Antiwar.com lots of links to past events 

This partial transcript of Special Report with Brit Hume BRIT HUME, HOST: Last time we reported on an Israeli-based company called Amdocs Ltd. that generates the computerized records and billing data for nearly every phone call made in America. As Carl Cameron reported, U.S. investigators digging into the 9/11 terrorist attacks fear that suspects may have been tipped off to what they were doing by information leaking out of Amdocs. 
CIA Probe Finds Secret Pentagon Group Manipulated Intelligence on Iraqi Threat 


According to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, Steven J. Rosen will be allowed to move ahead with his civil defamation lawsuit against the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Rosen and fellow AIPAC employee Keith Weissman were indicted under the 1917 Espionage Act in 2005 along with Department of Defense Employee Col. Lawrence Franklin for passing classified national defense information. Franklin pled guilty, but Rosen and Weissmans case never went to trial  US attorneys gave up (PDF) after the presiding judge made a successful prosecution unlikely. 

http://original.antiwar.com/smith-gr...-on-americans/


And the list goes on.

----------


## durak

> Truth of the matter is I can not think of one greatly positive thing Israel does for the US.


lol... I kinda figured you felt that way.

----------


## FranciscoG

> CAIR-muslim mafia..
> 
> great book fellas....what a bunch of crooked fvkts...


As bad as AIPAC if AIPAC was for Jews only and not israel only. Same shit different name.

----------


## durak

> Fair enough.
> 
> Post one speach or fund raising or what have you that has been pro Islamic Iranian government by the Iranian American PAC.
> 
> fact of the matter is there is none! Iranian Americans fleed to the US post islamic revolution and do not support that government. But hey I may be wrong so post a source that proves your point.
> 
> As for the Israeli PAC putting America first I just do not agree and history is against you there:
> 
> 5/02/09 Government Drops Case Against Accused AIPAC Spies A trial would have exposed too many U.S. government intelligence secrets, policy making and agents of influence (e.g. Rep. Jane Harman, etc) 
> ...


 
dude... you really need to get a grip. its like you just flipped out and ran to mommy wanting something to cut and paste because you felt insecure about your position... lol...

I suppose you are a truther too. lol....

----------


## FranciscoG

> dude... you really need to get a grip. its like you just flipped out and ran to mommy wanting something to cut and paste because you felt insecure about your position... lol...
> 
> I suppose you are a truther too. lol....


No I did not ¨flip out¨ it is a fact that AIPAC has conducted espionage on the United States.

----------


## durak

> No I did not ¨flip out¨ it is a fact that AIPAC has conducted espionage on the United States.


lol... you are a truther! I don't know if you noticed but you seem to be a little angry. If blaming Israel for whatever makes you feel better inside then run with it.

ps. my little dog up there is Israeli and she's watchin you.

lol...

----------


## durak

Back to topic: Yes Israel is prepared to go it alone. They have lots of nukes and can turn Iran into glass. The main problem is the reaction from other countries outside the middle east. Russia and China are two such examples.

----------


## FranciscoG

> lol... you are a truther! I don't know if you noticed but you seem to be a little angry. If blaming Israel for whatever makes you feel better inside then run with it.
> 
> lol...


I have no idea what a truther is!

I am not at all angry, you seam to be very defensive when AIPAC was questioned; I wonder why? 

I do not blindly support anyone, so please enlighten me as to why you support AIPAC, besides the whole American is put first in the name.

----------


## lostwars

> - it is not palestinian land
> 
> - Iran does not hate israel. iran in fact has a large jewish population. the leadership uses it as a wedge to direct anger away from themselves.
> 
> -Learned a lesson from iraq? from the way i see it we now have a huge military foothold in the middle east. look at a map, iran is sandwiched between afganistan and iraq...


its not palestinian land is it not? well come on then brains tell me is it land that God promised to the israeli ppl?
its widely regonisied by every goverment in the world there building jewish settlements on palestinian lands, and not only that there continuing to force muslims from there homes
if we turned this around for a minute and a muslim knocked on your door and said hey do you mind if i take your back yard? if you refused and were then turfed out of your house out on your ear how would you feel?
i bet youd fight tooth and nail to defend your home family and country from such agression
you seem to hate all things muslim which is a sad aspect of your character and your views are widely racist

if israel deserves to exsist so does the palestinian ppl, israel continues to punish ALL the ppl of palestine regardless of the political views or standing with its blockade of ports and border crossings
period

----------


## durak

> its not palestinian land is it not? well come on then brains tell me is it land that God promised to the israeli ppl?
> its widely regonisied by every goverment in the world there building jewish settlements on palestinian lands, and not only that there continuing to force muslims from there homes


This has nothing to do with God. Regardless of who was or was not on it in the past, they have it until taken from them by force. That is how all land is owned around the world.

No american can really say otherwise considering what we did to the Native Americans. If israel should give their land back then we should give ours.





> if we turned this around for a minute and a muslim knocked on your door and said hey do you mind if i take your back yard? if you refused and were then turfed out of your house out on your ear how would you feel?
> i bet youd fight tooth and nail to defend your home family and country from such agression


You are exactly correct. Except you can remove the word muslim and replace it with anyone trying to take my land or my countries. That is what makes it our land. 




> you seem to hate all things muslim which is a sad aspect of your character and your views are widely racist


We were having such a good conversation until this. You know nothing about me. You did not know my best man in my wedding was a muslim. You did not know I spent time in pakistan (and southern India). My family does business in the UAE and Saudi Arabia. I have been exposed to the muslim culture my entire life and know that the 95% that are not radical are some of the kindest people on earth.

You know as well as I do that the whole issue with israel/palestine is used by the arab countries to focus anger away from their governments. Many of the governments don't want the issue solved for that reason alone. Hamas does not care for a 2 state solution. Entertaining the idea is a waste of time because the powers at play do not want one.




> iif israel deserves to exsist so does the palestinian ppl, israel continues to punish ALL the ppl of palestine regardless of the political views or standing with its blockade of ports and border crossings period


No country *deserves* to exist except by force. It is sad how the regular palestinian people are suffering. In college I was fortunate to meet many palestinians and jewish people (from israel). I was shocked to find that they really just wanted to get along. Both sides (normal every day people not politicians) were tired of living in a war zone and only wanted their family to be able to live in peace with the other side.

----------


## Flagg

Yeah there isn't a nation around today that was created on the bones of the people they obliterated before them. 

But just because that's always been the rule of thumb, means it's okay to carry on like that? 

We're supposed to be living in the 21st Century now. The mentality of humans does not change, and what is frightening is that every single day we invent something capable of obliterating entire cities and massive land areas. Sooner or later, an unstable leader is going to slip through the net with access to an arsenal capable of destroying 90% of the human population.

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## lostwars

i apoligise if i offended you regarding my slur but i believe its high time israel was made face its responsibilities towards world peace or more so the peace in the middle east
enough blood shed has been spilled since its inception, strangely enough britain has a lot to answer for, for the way it effectively left the key under the mat and did a runner 
firstly both ppl deserve a goverment that can bring both prosperity and hope to the ppl of either country, as you say we now find its a hopeless situation, HAMAS are obviously quite happy for the innocence of there youth to be destroyed by sending them out to cause untold despair from suicide bombings, or to die at the hands of a israeli soldier who more than likely would rather be at home with his family
for me suicide bombings of this kind is desperation at its worst, if israel was to stop fueling the hamas flames of hatred maybe we could get beyond this madness
but the israeli continuation of the new berlin wall so to speak and its construction of new israeli settlements and the international embargo at ports and checkpoints is feeding this madness we see every day of the week

to think we had a chance to really solve this problem when clinton was president is very sad, as i said hamas will rule as long as a hard line israeli goverment rules
we need the states to push this peace upon the israelis and palestinians, hopefully obama will be brave enough to go for it in time
for all of hamas hardline speel they have to know in private that israel is here to stay,

----------


## durak

> i apoligise if i offended you regarding my slur but i believe its high time israel was made face its responsibilities towards world peace or more so the peace in the middle east
> enough blood shed has been spilled since its inception, strangely enough britain has a lot to answer for, for the way it effectively left the key under the mat and did a runner 
> firstly both ppl deserve a goverment that can bring both prosperity and hope to the ppl of either country, as you say we now find its a hopeless situation, HAMAS are obviously quite happy for the innocence of there youth to be destroyed by sending them out to cause untold despair from suicide bombings, or to die at the hands of a israeli soldier who more than likely would rather be at home with his family
> for me suicide bombings of this kind is desperation at its worst, if israel was to stop fueling the hamas flames of hatred maybe we could get beyond this madness
> but the israeli continuation of the new berlin wall so to speak and its construction of new israeli settlements and the international embargo at ports and checkpoints is feeding this madness we see every day of the week
> 
> to think we had a chance to really solve this problem when clinton was president is very sad, as i said hamas will rule as long as a hard line israeli goverment rules
> we need the states to push this peace upon the israelis and palestinians, hopefully obama will be brave enough to go for it in time
> for all of hamas hardline speel they have to know in private that israel is here to stay,


You make the most sense out of any other person on the other side of the issue from me. It is good to see we can speak the truth and then add our opinion on what should or could be done (that is where we differ). 
Personally I think peace cannot be pushed on them. Too many forces do want want peace. Some within the conflict and *most* outside the borders of israel/palestine. 

I do find it _strange_ that for some reason the borders of "palestine" are never considered infringed upon by egypt, lebanon, syria, jordan... for some reason only the land that israel is on not an inch less, not an inch more...
If we were to really talk about a true Palestinian state, other countries should cough up some land too.

----------


## durak

It seems much of this discussion focuses on Israel and Palestine. Those not in favor of israel see it as occupying the land of palestinians. 

This is an honest question I never thought about until yesterday. Why is Israel the only bad guy? Are Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria (maybe Egypt) not to some extent on Palestinian land? Why don't they commit to giving their land away for their fellow arabs?

This was in wikipedia

_As a geographic term, Palestine can refer to 'ancient Palestine,' an area that today includes Israel and the Israeli-occupied [2] Palestinian territories, as well as part of Jordan, and some of both Lebanon and Syria.[1]_

I honestly don't know. My true belief is land is owned by those that can keep it by force. The ways is has always been and will be. But I am curious to here from those that are always on the anti-israel bandwagon.

----------


## Superhero d-bolman

First of all Israel would kick Irans ass in a war...

1st reason would be is because Iran greatly overstates its budget

2nd look at Israels war history... Yom Kippur, the six day war... in only six days of fighting the IDF only lost 600 men and killed over 15,000. and in both those wars that was fighting 3 Arab nations at the same time.

3rd of all i know since Israel is such a small state many of u think it is puny but Israel is pound for pound the strongest military in the world... it is the closet thing we have to a Greek spartan state.

----------


## Superhero d-bolman

> AIPAC, Arguably the most powerful organization in DC!
> 
> They have a good tactic. 
> 
> If your country happens to be borrowing money from, ohhhhhh China, to fund Israel and you FOR ANY reason do not support that they simply call you a racist!
> 
> You see the problem is not the individual citizens of the UK or US. The problem is our political leaders do not have balls.
> 
> So while all this goes on our welfare client does whatever she wants.
> ...


i don't believe you understand politics and warfare and the whole story about the west bank... Israel took the west bank in the six day war among other things because they were probably about to be invaded... and no, israel could not wait to be invaded because since israel is such a small country that if israel were to be taken over it wouldn't take long at all.


its as simple as this...

arab people want to see all the jewish people die, genocide, etc... Israelis just wanta kick em out of there homes for that... 3rd of all remember this about the muslim people in the arab world..

----------


## FranciscoG

> i don't believe you understand politics and warfare and the whole story about the west bank... Israel took the west bank in the six day war among other things because they were probably about to be invaded... and no, israel could not wait to be invaded because since israel is such a small country that if israel were to be taken over it wouldn't take long at all.
> 
> 
> its as simple as this...
> 
> arab people want to see all the jewish people die, genocide, etc... Israelis just wanta kick em out of there homes for that... 3rd of all remember this about the muslim people in the arab world..


That was relevant to the quoted post how?

Like saying hey I have Cancer but let me talk to you about this mold on my ass... Relevant?

----------


## corestorm

> I dont think Israel has the fire power, man power or support to go it alone. It would NEED support.
> 
> They aure as **** didnt give a shit about their relations with the UK though. I couldnt have really seen those assasins on fake US documents, could you?


sure they do man israel has a beast of an army

----------


## Superhero d-bolman

> That was relevant to the quoted post how?
> 
> Like saying hey I have Cancer but let me talk to you about this mold on my ass... Relevant?


dang i guess it wasn't relevent, alright i read the whole post. I think you forget how many terrorists whom are common enemies of israel, are common enemies of us. Yes lots of times they say the reason they bombed was because of our choice to hurt israel. But believe me as long as we do things like...

Station troops on muslim holy soil, this is actually what i believe triggered osama bin laden to really have it out for us, when we stationed troops on Saudi soil.
Do business deals that make muslims either lose their jobs, or make them feel as if they are being paid unfairly.
Put a god damn picture of him on tv or whatever.

They will find a reason to want to bomb us.

3rd of all the supposed "welfare" they get is only 3 billion dollars in aide out of the united states 14 trillion dollar gdp a tiny fraction, the welfare that actually matters is all the shit thats going on in iraq and afghanstan.

4th of all, yes the west bank you think they should withdraw but lemme tell you something about arabs and israel... It is a mob world there very different from western nations dealing with other western nations...

Its the same thing with the United states and the soviet union. When it came to the commies Retreating on your ground would only make them ask for more just like in the movie thirteen days, thats the reason the cuban missile crisis was such a big deal.

The fact of the matter is, is that Most arab nations not only want israel to withdraw from the west bank, but to cease as a state. Believe me they withdraw from the westbank, or that matter in itself show any form of weakness, they'll find something else they want.

And although while i do agree with your belief on how the "if you don't support israeli, your anti-semetic 80%) remember this, The israeli people don't want to see us die. Although i can't say for sure about most of the Arab people. Most of the people in the Arab governments sure as hell aren't your friend, and could careless about you or your family.

If the United states went through the same shit with canada as israel did with the arab nations, we'd be worse then them.

----------


## Superhero d-bolman

> How many of you American guys actually like your country donating shed loads of cash, Israels way?
> 
> I mean yep, the whole debate of "Israel has the right to defend herself against islamic insurgents" has been beaten to death. However, surely the only reason she can defend herself in the first place is because of American funding. My history isn't the greatest but wasn't Israel always originally, an Arab state? 
> 
> Israel to me just comes across as a huge pain in the ass for America, in my opinion. With the financial state of the country, surely you have better things you could be spending your money on.
> 
> Like Kratos said, its a shame that the West cant form new ties with Iran over their nuclear program and even help them develop it. 
> 
> Whatever way you look at it, Israel declaring they are going to bomb any nuclear facilities that goes into production, is wrong, and I really don't like the fact that the US and UK are going to be forced to back up Israel in yet another pointless war in the Middle East.


jews had the holocaust muslims didn't, that's another reason why they had gotten the land of israel, another reason was is because jewish people and muslims had been fighting over it for years, and it was only going to get worse after the holocaust and it wasn't going to end sometime soon. and the great welfare you are talking about is only 3 billion dollars in military aid per year considering that the fact that the united states makes nearly 14 trillion dollars per year, what is it that like 5 bucks at the absolute most in your taxes per year?

----------


## eliteforce

> jews had the holocaust muslims didn't, that's another reason why they had gotten the land of israel, another reason was is because jewish people and muslims had been fighting over it for years, and it was only going to get worse after the holocaust and it wasn't going to end sometime soon. and the great welfare you are talking about is only 3 billion dollars in military aid per year considering that the fact that the united states makes nearly 14 trillion dollars per year, what is it that like 5 bucks at the absolute most in your taxes per year?


This is wrong, muslims and jews were never fighting over Palestine before zionism, which was only invented in the late 1800's and there wasn't significant immigration to palestine until the 1930's. Prior to the modern era (middle eastern jews and arabs had always been united against european invaders, particularly the crusaders-which expelled and murdered all jews and muslims that they came into contact with, when the crusaders reached jerusalem in the 1st crusade, they killed all the jews and muslims in the city and the rest fled, it was the arabs that allowed jews to return after the crusaders were defeated 88 years later. same thing happened with the byzantine impire, byzantines threw jews out, arabs conquered palestine and let jews back in.. Zionism was invented by european, askenazi jews, jews descended from kazaria or russia..so in that sense it is more of a crusade.

another question of cource is if jews suffered during the holoucaust, why are the arabs paying the price? 40 million soviets died in wwii and millions of gypsies, 8 million were killed in death camps by stalin.. wheres their palestine? should we expel the angolans and give it to them? 
what happens when the last holucaust survivor dies, should israel _then_ be abolished?

----------


## eliteforce

If you drive around that country you will understand why, to the east of where the bulk of the population in the west bank lives, there is the empty desert jordan valley, and on the other side is more rural land until you reach the suburbs of Amman jordan, Palestinians economic and agricultural lives are based around it and Israel, that was why it was separate from jordan in the first place, the gaza strip is stuck between israel and the mostly dry and empty sinai and separated from the west bank, which makes it an open air prison..you can't just take bits and peices of 5 different countries and make it so Palestinians can have normal lives, they have to have a single continuous area or a single state solution with israel, its about giving the people a normal existence like every other country in the world.




> It seems much of this discussion focuses on Israel and Palestine. Those not in favor of israel see it as occupying the land of palestinians. 
> 
> This is an honest question I never thought about until yesterday. Why is Israel the only bad guy? Are Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria (maybe Egypt) not to some extent on Palestinian land? Why don't they commit to giving their land away for their fellow arabs?

----------


## eliteforce

> its as simple as this...
> 
> arab people want to see all the jewish people die, genocide, etc... Israelis just wanta kick em out of there homes for that... 3rd of all remember this about the muslim people in the arab world..


well theres alot of hate out there-and you obviously hate all arabs and want them all dead thats why you make this vitriolic statement, I think very few arab people "want to see all jews die" most arab people are hard working family people, they want to see justice for Palestinian suffering and polls show the majority want an agreement based on full israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders, not an aphartied scheme like Israels government.

and ofcource there are your jewish settler friends, burning Palestinian olive trees, poisoning wells, vandalizing property, throwing rocks at palestinian school children, evicting Palestinians out of their houses, seizing their land..these people wanna see all arabs live and prosper thats for sure.




> dang i guess it wasn't relevent, alright i read the whole post. I think you forget how many terrorists whom are common enemies of israel, are common enemies of us. Yes lots of times they say the reason they bombed was because of our choice to hurt israel. But believe me as long as we do things like...
> 
> Station troops on muslim holy soil, this is actually what i believe triggered osama bin laden to really have it out for us, when we stationed troops on Saudi soil.
> Do business deals that make muslims either lose their jobs, or make them feel as if they are being paid unfairly.
> Put a god damn picture of him on tv or whatever.
> 
> They will find a reason to want to bomb us.


The US never had any enemies in the middle east before it started supporting israel..the rest of that, like stationing troops there is part of a general situation of instability, mostly caused by israeli oppression.. or why the US needs troops station in iraq or kuwait or afghanistan forever at this point everyone is scratching their heads..some crap about lets fight them there so we don't fight them here and keep de-humaizing the Palestinians, because treating the Palestinians like human beings would embolden the terrorists.




> 4th of all, yes the west bank you think they should withdraw but lemme tell you something about arabs and israel... It is a mob world there very different from western nations dealing with other western nations...
> 
> Its the same thing with the United states and the soviet union. When it came to the commies Retreating on your ground would only make them ask for more just like in the movie thirteen days, thats the reason the cuban missile crisis was such a big deal.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, is that Most arab nations not only want israel to withdraw from the west bank, but to cease as a state. Believe me they withdraw from the westbank, or that matter in itself show any form of weakness, they'll find something else they want.
> 
> And although while i do agree with your belief on how the "if you don't support israeli, your anti-semetic 80%) remember this, The israeli people don't want to see us die. Although i can't say for sure about most of the Arab people. Most of the people in the Arab governments sure as hell aren't your friend, and could careless about you or your family.
> 
> If the United states went through the same shit with canada as israel did with the arab nations, we'd be worse then them.


'we' would never be a racist aphartied state in the first place, and 'we' never expelled canadians from america and stole there land and we don't keep them confined to bantustans..its a stupid example, if the US treated it's blacks like the israelis treat the Palestinians.. you remeber the riots in LA in 92-this was just because a black man was beaten by white cops..despite the fact that the US has equal rights laws and israel has none.

if israel withdrew from the WB and Palestinians launched terrorist attacks from it, they could always re-invade it, they have nothing to loose but a bunch of settlements that create an undemocratic aphartied state.. more recently the Palestinians in the WB have been using non-violent resistance and the only thing it has gotten them is more settlements and house demolitions and violent settler raids

This is an interesting article that discusses the full extent of israels segregationist policies:
http://www.redress.cc/zionism/jcook20100427

in particular how their policies extend to arab citizens of israel..

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## FranciscoG

> dang i guess it wasn't relevent, alright i read the whole post. I think you forget how many terrorists whom are common enemies of israel, are common enemies of us. Yes lots of times they say the reason they bombed was because of our choice to hurt israel. But believe me as long as we do things like...
> 
> Station troops on muslim holy soil, this is actually what i believe triggered osama bin laden to really have it out for us, when we stationed troops on Saudi soil.*Very true in fact Bin Laden said post 9/11 his main goal was to get the US out of SA. Bush closed down the USAF base around 2004ish.*
> Do business deals that make muslims either lose their jobs, or make them feel as if they are being paid unfairly.
> Put a god damn picture of him on tv or whatever.
> 
> They will find a reason to want to bomb us.
> 
> 3rd of all the supposed "welfare" they get is only 3 billion dollars in aide out of the united states 14 trillion dollar gdp a tiny fraction, the welfare that actually matters is all the shit thats going on in iraq and afghanstan.*I don´t think you understand my point. I will elaborate on the reply*
> ...


I believe there is a difference between a hand-out and helping those that need help.

Some place along the road, oh like 60+ years, that nation should become independant and not dependant. So supporting a begger for 60+ years is different than supporting a nation that just had a ________ for a few months.

As for the problems that nations does and does not have, those are thier problems. 

It does say much about a nation that is dependant for 60+ years. One would think thier people would stop putting thier hands out for a hand-out some place along the line.

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## FranciscoG

> jews had the *holocaust* muslims didn't, that's another reason why they had gotten the land of israel, another reason was is because jewish people and muslims had been fighting over it for years, and it was only going to get worse after the *holocaust* and it wasn't going to end sometime soon. and the great welfare you are talking about is only 3 billion dollars in military aid per year considering that the fact that the united states makes nearly 14 trillion dollars per year, what is it that like 5 bucks at the absolute most in your taxes per year?


Why do I have to pay for it. I am not a Nazi. I did not kill any jews. 

I live in Mexico. I moved out of the US 3rd quarter of 2009. 

I will still have to pay income tax on the money I make in Mexico in 2010. That´s right I have to pay IRS taxes on 4/15/2011. 

The holocaust happened 60-70 years ago. It was not carried out by the US. Why doesn´t the jewish nation sue Germany for the hand-out.

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## Superhero d-bolman

> Why do I have to pay for it. I am not a Nazi. I did not kill any jews. 
> 
> I live in Mexico. I moved out of the US 3rd quarter of 2009. 
> 
> I will still have to pay income tax on the money I make in Mexico in 2010. That´s right I have to pay IRS taxes on 4/15/2011. 
> 
> The holocaust happened 60-70 years ago. It was not carried out by the US. Why doesn´t the jewish nation sue Germany for the hand-out.


good point i agree with that fully. Also i'm pretty sure i came off a lil too pro isreali for your tastes. I dunno if you figured this out by now but my father is jewish. So i feel a very strong sense of nationalism for the country of israel.

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## FranciscoG

> good point i agree with that fully. Also i'm pretty sure i came off a lil too pro isreali for your tastes. I dunno if you figured this out by now but my father is jewish. So i feel a very strong sense of nationalism for the country of israel.


That´s cool nothing wrong with that.

My parents are both from latino/a countries and I also feel a strong latin sense of pride.

I don´t see the jewish people taking care of themselves as a problem, however I feel like it is not my responsibility to feed them.

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## durak

Let's say I understand your problem about handouts. You state that it is not your responsibility to feed them. Hence you have negative feelings toward them.

What about the fact that our elected officials give them the money. You are unhappy that they take it, not that both dems and repubs are offering it.

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## FranciscoG

> Let's say I understand your problem about handouts. You state that it is not your responsibility to feed them. Hence you have negative feelings toward them.*I will fully admit that I have no respect for people that take handouts.*
> 
> What about the fact that our elected officials give them the money. You are unhappy that they take it, not that both dems and repubs are offering it.*As I stated earlier this is lobbied for by AIPAC. I feel that any group that represents the interests of another nation should not be allowed to lobby within the US.*


More over, I feel that any groups whose members have committed an act of espionage should not be allowed to exist.

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## durak

> _Me: What about the fact that our elected officials give them the money. You are unhappy that they take it, not that both dems and repubs are offering it.
> You: As I stated earlier this is lobbied for by AIPAC. I feel that any group that represents the interests of another nation should not be allowed to lobby within the US._


You deflected the question. No matter what lobby exists, our officials are still *choosing* to give/offer them the money. They are not taking it from us (it is freely given).





> More over, I feel that any groups whose members have committed an act of espionage should not be allowed to exist.


So should chinese and russian groups be dismantled? They commit espionage all the time here. Infiltrate our labs and sensitive areas. And you cannot say that group x from china is not apart of group y from china that did the espionage. They are one in the same.

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## FranciscoG

> You deflected the question. No matter what lobby exists, our officials are still *choosing* to give/offer them the money. They are not taking it from us (it is freely given).*Choosing once lobbied. No one would care about Israel if AIPAC was not around. I also feel like people should be held financially liable, if they are called others racist without solid proff.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So should chinese and russian groups be dismantled? They commit espionage all the time here. Infiltrate our labs and sensitive areas. And you cannot say that group x from china is not apart of group y from china that did the espionage. They are one in the same. *Yes, all groups that lobby for the interests of other nations*


It is ironic. I have had this conversation many times in the last 20 years. 

1) Some one does not support handing out a free living and they are called anti-semi or fill in the blank some other name calling tactic ________________.

2) Then we have someone shoving the holocaust up our asses like every US citizen should be held accountable for crimes committed by Hitler.


3) Then there is some abstract bull shit that has no relevance to the issue.


Here I will close my thought with 2 questions:

For all the pro Israel supporters. 

*1*) Why is there not an effort make to get off welfare after 60+ years? *2*) Why do the American public have to provide a free living for the nation of Israel?

You never hear this explained.

Okay, back to the pro handout lobby.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## JJ78

Carrier Strike Group 10, headed by the USS Harry S. Truman aircraft carrier, sails out of the US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia Friday, May 21. On arrival, it will raise the number of US carriers off Iranian shores to two. Up until now, President Barack Obama kept just one aircraft carrier stationed off the coast of Iran, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower in the Arabian Sea, in pursuit of his policy of diplomatic engagement with Tehran.

For the first time, too, the US force opposite Iran will be joined by a German warship, the frigate FGS Hessen, operating under American command.

It is also the first time that Obama, since taking office 14 months ago, is sending military reinforcements to the Persian Gulf. Our military sources have learned that the USS Truman is just the first element of the new buildup of US resources around Iran. It will take place over the next three months, reaching peak level in late July and early August. By then, the Pentagon plans to have at least 4 or 5 US aircraft carriers visible from Iranian shores.

The USS Truman's accompanying Strike Group includes Carrier Air Wing Three (Battle Axe) - which has 7 squadrons - 4 of F/A-18 Super Hornet and F/A-18 Hornet bomber jets, as well as spy planes and early warning E-2 Hawkeyes that can operate in all weather conditions; the Electronic Attack Squadron 130 for disrupting enemy radar systems; and Squadron 7 of helicopters for anti-submarine combat (In its big naval exercise last week, Iran exhibited the Velayat 89 long-range missile for striking US aircraft carriers and Israel warships from Iranian submarines.)

Another four US warships will be making their way to the region to join the USS Truman and its Strike Group. They are the guided-missile cruiser USS Normandy and guided missile destroyers USS Winston S. Churchill, USS Oscar Austin and USS Ross

I copied and pasted this from a site
Scary Shit!!!!

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## tupollo

> They'll be fighting in the middle east long after the oil is gone...and you know what they'll be fighting with?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sticks and cammels



Albert Einstein " I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but world War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

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## gluteus

> I dont think Israel has the fire power, man power or support to go it alone. It would NEED support.
> 
> They aure as **** didnt give a shit about their relations with the UK though. I couldnt have really seen those assasins on fake US documents, could you?


they have the full support of the US, how much more firepower would they need?

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## quarry206

> they have the full support of the US, how much more firepower would they need?


they don't have the support they once did from the US.. I just honestly think that the USA will not jump fully into a war, if Israel starts it

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## BignBig

I dont believe that the Middle East political land scape has shaped yet to eliminate Iran. US Plan for Irak hasn't come out as planned (this is not South Korea or Japan)?!?!
Any aggression by Isreal will get other Arabs and Muslum countries in. Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia ... and others far away from Middle East such as Pakistan.

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## wanabeMASSIVE!

America will back Israel 100% they always have and always will...

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## wanabeMASSIVE!

Agreed with BignBig. ww3 is on its way...

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