# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Church posts video of Gay Exorcism; Outrage ensues

## Tock

Video at 
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,5852673.story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s29tDh21GGg
===================================


http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nati...y/1111874.html

BRIDGEPORT, Conn. -- The video shows the 16-year-old boy lying on the floor, his body convulsing, as elders of a small Connecticut church cast a "homosexual demon" from his body.

"Rip it from his throat!" a woman yells. "Come on, you homosexual demon! You homosexual spirit, we call you out right now! Loose your grip, Lucifer!"

The 20-minute video posted on YouTube by Manifested Glory Ministries is being called abuse by gay and youth advocates, who are demanding an investigation. But a church official this week denied that the teenager was injured or that the church is prejudiced. 

"We believe a man should be with a woman and a woman should be with a man," the Rev. Patricia McKinney told The Associated Press. "We have nothing against homosexuals. I just don't agree with their lifestyle."

The church posted the video on YouTube but has since removed it; it is still available on some Web sites that copied it. The church declined to make the video available for distribution by The Associated Press.
It shows church members standing the youth on his feet by holding him under his arms, and people shouting as organ music plays.

"Come out of his belly," someone commands. "It's in the belly - push."

Later, the teenager is back on the floor, breathing heavily. Then he's coughing and apparently vomiting into a bag.

"Get another bag," a participant says. "Make sure you have your gloves."

As the youth lay back on the ground, limp, church members put a white sheet over him.

It's nearly impossible to say how often similar exercises occur in churches nationwide. But Kamora Herrington, who runs a mentoring program at True Colors and has worked with the youth, said she believes it's fairly common.

"This happens all the time," she said. "This is not isolated."

Robin McHaelin, executive director of True Colors, an advocacy group for gay youths, said her organization is aware of five cases in recent years in which youths in her program were threatened with exorcism.

In one case, she said, a child called to report that his caregiver had called a priest who was throwing holy water on his bedroom door.

"I think it's horrifying," McHaelin said of the video by Manifested Glory. "What saddens me is the people that are doing this think they are doing something in the kid's best interests, when in fact they're murdering his spirit."

McHaelin said she planned to report the situation to the Connecticut Department of Children and Families. An agency spokesman said the agency does not comment on complaints or investigations.

"They have this kid in a full nelson," she said. "That just seems abusive to me."

McKinney said the youth was 18. The boy confirmed he is 16 but otherwise declined to comment, citing the advice of his pastor.

McHaelin said the boy told her staff that the church performed the ritual three times at his request. She said the boy has been engaging in risky behavior that she blames on the church's treatment.

McKinney said the youth went to the church last year and collapsed on the floor during a service.

"He was out of control in the church," she said. "This young man came to us. We didn't go to him."

McKinney denied the ritual was an exorcism, describing it instead as a casting out of spirits. She said the church took care of the youth, providing him clothes.

"He was dressing like a woman and everything. And he didn't want to be like that," McKinney said.

The teen had been in reform school for stealing but was eager to get out and go to the church to have what he thought were his demons driven out, Herrington said.
Exodus International, a Christian group that believes gays can become straight through prayer and counseling, does not advocate the church's approach, said Jeff Buchanan, director of church equipping.

The Rev. Roland Stringfellow, a minister in Oakland, Calif., said he was subject to demon casting in the 1990s when he was at a Baptist church and was struggling with his sexuality. He said he was put in front of the church as members shouted "demon of homosexuality come out of him."

"It caused nothing but shame and embarrassment," Stringfellow said.

McKinney also has a weekly radio program. She talked on Wednesday's program about being "persecuted" in recent days but did not mention the video specifically.
"It's been a hard time for me, but I'm looking good and I'm standing strong because when you have a mandate like mine you're not going to say what you want without the adversary coming after you," she said. "If you are a true prophet you're not going to be popular with the people."

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## Panzerfaust

:LOL: 

I don't think medical science has figured out (or cares) what actually malfunctions to cause it, not sure its a "demon" or not though. ha

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## TRT,MAN

dms what do you think about that? do you wanna give it a shot or are you happy where your at. lol.

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## spywizard

Could be worse... he could be in pakistan

http://quranbible.wordpress.com/2007...nced-to-death/

They just go ahead and kill him..

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## Tock

> I don't think medical science has figured out (or cares) what actually malfunctions to cause it


I'm sure medical science has figured out it's not a "malfunction."

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## SMCengineer

Haha, silly religion.

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## Iron_Pig

oh well

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## DSM4Life

Religion is a joke.

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## Iron_Pig

It not a joke as long as you believe and I mean you and not having someone spoon feed it to you. I wear a cross around my neck that my father wore In his army career 1935 till 1975 and he said as long as you believe you will never be alone.

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## DSM4Life

> It not a joke as long as you believe and I mean you and not having someone spoon feed it to you. I wear a cross around my neck that my father wore In his army career 1935 till 1975 and he said as long as you believe you will never be alone.


I can see the cross having meaning since your father gave it to you but for you to believe by having a cross your never going to die alone i think is amusing.

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## Iron_Pig

> I can see the cross having meaning since your father gave it to you but for you to believe by having a cross your never going to die alone i think is amusing.


 
Why is it amusing ? I have seen death in many forms some by my own hand.When you have been a soilder as long as me you have the feeling you will die one day in some shit hole country alone My cross is my own personal conection to God. So I am never alone.

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## crazy_rocks

> I can see the cross having meaning since your father gave it to you but for you to believe by having a cross your never going to die alone i think is amusing.


he doesnt believe in eternal life because he wears a cross, he wears it because of what he believes.

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> Haha, silly religion.





> Religion is a joke.




Yep, basically...

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## Fat Guy

> Religion is a joke.


Religion = Anthropomorphism

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## Pocketbattleship2B

> Religion = Anthropomorphism


I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
How does Religion = Anthropomorphism? :Hmmmm:

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
> How does Religion = Anthropomorphism?


Google the word and maybe it will make more sense.

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## Pocketbattleship2B

> Google the word and maybe it will make more sense.


I knew about the meaning refering to animals being given human characteristics but just got a wider meaning off wikipedia.

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## O.fO.shO

who in the fvck is anyone to tell someone else how to live. If people wanna be gay ffs mind your own business.

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## thegodfather

> I'm sure medical science has figured out it's not a "malfunction."


Well Tock, you know my position on this as a libertarian, people can live however they want. However, by concluding that homosexuality is not a choice, and something you are born as, then you must take along with that the scientific rammifications. Anything deviating from the norm, is considered a diseased state, abnormality, malfunction, etc. I dont see anything wrong with this conclusion, other than it might not 'feel good,' or would be politically unpopular, but I am really a man of science, and could give two flying fu**s about political correctness and whether or not something hurts someones feelings. I have several gay friends, and dont view them any differently than my straight friends, nor do I find their lifestyle to be morally reprehensible. I have learned that nature provides many things which on the surface can appear to be a negative, and are actually a positive. For instance, the fact that many savonts and extremely intelligent people have a degree of Downs Syndrome. It is by definition a diseased state, although these people are capable of doing miraculous things. But please, do not try to misrepresent the scientific rammifcations of deciding that being gay is not a choice, just because it might not sound good, or hurt your feelings. It is what it is. 

*"a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment."*

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## DSM4Life

> Well Tock, you know my position on this as a libertarian, people can live however they want. However, by concluding that homosexuality is not a choice, and something you are born as, then you must take along with that the scientific rammifications. *Anything deviating from the norm, is considered a diseased state, abnormality, malfunction, etc*. I dont see anything wrong with this conclusion, other than it might not 'feel good,' or would be politically unpopular, but I am really a man of science, and could give two flying fu**s about political correctness and whether or not something hurts someones feelings. I have several gay friends, and dont view them any differently than my straight friends, nor do I find their lifestyle to be morally reprehensible. I have learned that nature provides many things which on the surface can appear to be a negative, and are actually a positive. For instance, the fact that many savonts and extremely intelligent people have a degree of Downs Syndrome. It is by definition a diseased state, although these people are capable of doing miraculous things. But please, do not try to misrepresent the scientific rammifcations of deciding that being gay is not a choice, just because it might not sound good, or hurt your feelings. It is what it is. 
> 
> *"a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment."*


I stopped reading right there. Who decides what norm is ?

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## thegodfather

> I stopped reading right there. Who decides what norm is ?


Biologically/Physically speaking? Modern medicine...

Remember that statement you made the next time you go into the ER in cardiac arrest ok. Or maybe if you are ever diagnosed with cancer, just tell the doc, who are you to determine that dysplasia and hyperplasia aren't normal?

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## DSM4Life

> Biologically/Physically speaking? Modern medicine...
> 
> Remember that statement you made the next time you go into the ER in cardiac arrest ok. Or maybe if you are ever diagnosed with cancer, just tell the doc, who are you to determine that dysplasia and hyperplasia aren't normal?


Should i post all the recent scientific facts/studys on a gay gene or do they just not count ?

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## Dave-D

malfunction? really?

So is jerking off a malfunction since it is not intended for normal procreation?

gay-straight-bi-fatgirls-blondgirls-big boobs-litlle boobs-asian-etc it is all just sexual preference, no big deal.

People used to think inter-racial relations were wrong also, but it is all just sex. Relax, it's normal.

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## Tock

> Well Tock, you know my position on this as a libertarian, people can live however they want. However, by concluding that homosexuality is not a choice, and something you are born as, then you must take along with that the scientific rammifications. Anything deviating from the norm, is considered a diseased state, abnormality, malfunction, etc. I dont see anything wrong with this conclusion, other than it might not 'feel good,' or would be politically unpopular, but I am really a man of science, and could give two flying fu**s about political correctness and whether or not something hurts someones feelings.


Well, I'm sorry to learn that I'm somehow not as good as you. 










> I have several gay friends, and dont view them any differently than my straight friends, nor do I find their lifestyle to be morally reprehensible. I have learned that nature provides many things which on the surface can appear to be a negative, and are actually a positive. For instance, the fact that many savonts and extremely intelligent people have a degree of Downs Syndrome. It is by definition a diseased state, although these people are capable of doing miraculous things. But please, do not try to misrepresent the scientific rammifcations of deciding that being gay is not a choice, just because it might not sound good, or hurt your feelings. It is what it is.


But I'm deeply grateful that you are a nice enough fellow not to turn away from other people like me. It shows what a kind person you truly must be.




*



"a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment."


*
Thank you for teaching me this lesson in human characteristics. Though I am better for this lesson, I can see that you are much better of a person than I because you are disease-free, functioning properly, and perfectly normal, which is something that I, a mere data point in the grand statistics of humanity, can only aspire to . . . 

It must be wonderful to be normal.

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## thegodfather

> Should i post all the recent scientific facts/studys on a gay gene or do they just not count ?


So Cystic Fibrosis Transmembrane Receptor gene, thats not a diseased state? Just because it exists as a gene does not necessarily mean it is not a diseased state. There are a number of intact genes which cause harm. You're attempting to differentiate this one for emotional and political reasons. I am completely divorced from that train of thinking when it comes to science. If statistically X percent of something is this, and a narrow percent of Y is this, then Y is the abnormality.

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## Pocketbattleship2B

> So Cystic Fibrosis Transmembrane Receptor gene, thats not a diseased state? Just because it exists as a gene does not necessarily mean it is not a diseased state. There are a number of intact genes which cause harm. You're attempting to differentiate this one for emotional and political reasons. I am completely divorced from that train of thinking when it comes to science. If statistically X percent of something is this, and a narrow percent of Y is this, then Y is the abnormality.


There are FAR more brown eyed people than blue eyed people.Are blue eyes abnormal?And if your answer is yes, is that automatically a bad thing?Blond hair is in the same position.As a matter of fact, there are more males born than females in any year,does that make being female an abnormality?

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

This got interesting... 

Im on the fence. I can see where both parties are coming from. 

So DSM, Tock, or anyone gay for that matter. There is actually a gay gene? But didn't you say you use to be straight (DSM)? So is this gay gene like cancer and takes over "normal" cells at a certain point in life? 


And just if anyone didn't know already, Im all for peoples rights.

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## Pocketbattleship2B

> This got interesting... 
> 
> Im on the fence. I can see where both parties are coming from. 
> 
> So DSM, Tock, or anyone gay for that matter. There is actually a gay gene? *But didn't you say you use to be straight (DSM)?* So is this gay gene like cancer and takes over "normal" cells at a certain point in life? 
> 
> 
> And just if anyone didn't know already, Im all for peoples rights.


Wait, what?

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## thegodfather

> Well, I'm sorry to learn that I'm somehow not as good as you. 
> 
> 
> But I'm deeply grateful that you are a nice enough fellow not to turn away from other people like me. It shows what a kind person you truly must be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for teaching me this lesson in human characteristics. Though I am better for this lesson, I can see that you are much better of a person than I because you are disease-free, functioning properly, and perfectly normal, which is something that I, a mere data point in the grand statistics of humanity, can only aspire to . . . 
> ...


Thats absurd Tock. You have put words into my argument which I never even said, not ONCE. When did I ever state I felt I was better than you, or anyone else for that matter?

Is someone without cystic fibrosis better than someone with it? Is someone without cancer better than someone with it? Of course not, people in my mind, ought to be judged on their character, and not on groups that we classify them into. Regardless, if there is an argument that sexual orientation is biological/physiological, then I believe it would be classified as a diseased state since it differs from the norm, and under the current definition that I posted, it falls within that category. If you could stick to disputing those facts, instead of playing off of emotional ques or political correctness, I would greatly appreciate it. I would also appreciate if you'd refrain from putting words into my mouth or drawing wild assumptions about my intentions from my post. 

Do you believe having this viewpoint based on the facts makes me some sort of anti-gay nutjob? I certainly dont believe it should, as I treat every person as an individual and as my equal, with no regard to their preference for one sex over the other. I dont have to "hate gay people" to believe based on the facts and definitions at hand that it would be classified as a diseased state.

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## countrybhoy

> malfunction? really?
> 
> So is jerking off a malfunction since it is not intended for normal procreation?
> 
> gay-straight-bi-fatgirls-blondgirls-big boobs-litlle boobs-asian-etc it is all just sexual preference, no big deal.
> 
> People used to think inter-racial relations were wrong also, but it is all just sex. Relax, it's normal.



ill get dogs abuse for this . but i still think inter racial relationships are wrong . the thought of it turns my stomach . as for gay i dont think people really get a choice . though i think some choose this life style . its became trendy recently with people like robbie williams . one min he is next he aint . ffs make up your mind

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## thegodfather

> ill get dogs abuse for this . *but i still think inter racial relationships are wrong* . the thought of it turns my stomach . as for gay i dont think people really get a choice . though i think some choose this life style . its became trendy recently with people like robbie williams . one min he is next he aint . ffs make up your mind


Did you graduate high school? If so, how? 

Race is a socially constructed institution. It is a figment of human imagination. There is absolutely no basis for race within science and human DNA. If you believe race is real, you ought to believe the boogey-man is real, which from you severely uneducated viewpoints, just might be possible.

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## countrybhoy

well i know im white and if my daughter came in with anything but a white man thier relationship would not last long . . if god had wanted all the same color we would be the same color . . but hey you want to call me thick knock yourself out m8 . call me racist if you want . dont care .

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## Pocketbattleship2B

> ill get dogs abuse for this . *but i still think inter racial relationships are wrong* . the thought of it turns my stomach . as for gay i dont think people really get a choice . though i think some choose this life style . its became trendy recently with people like robbie williams . one min he is next he aint . ffs make up your mind



Do YOU believe that,or is that what the people who tell you how to live your life ( you religious leader,your parents,the leaders of your town/city) tell you to believe?

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## Dave-D

> ill get dogs abuse for this . but i still think inter racial relationships are wrong . the thought of it turns my stomach . as for gay i dont think people really get a choice . though i think some choose this life style . its became trendy recently with people like robbie williams . one min he is next he aint . ffs make up your mind


What I am hearing is that it makes you physically ill to see people of two dif. races together. 

I just feel bad for you that you are so sensitive that you are upset by how others their lives and find happiness.

I will keep it real with you though because I appreciate your honesty.
I am a white man, I live in the city, and I would be uncomfortable if my daughter was in love with someone that looked different from me.

But here is the thing, that is my problem not hers, and In the end I should be more concerned about things like, does that dude really care about her, does that guy have a job, is that guy a worthless POS? Better an honest, caring, upstanding, minority than a user, drug addicted, no job having, no education white trash f#$khead.

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## DSM4Life

> This got interesting... 
> 
> Im on the fence. I can see where both parties are coming from. 
> 
> So DSM, Tock, or anyone gay for that matter. There is actually a gay gene? But didn't you say you use to be straight (DSM)? So is this gay gene like cancer and takes over "normal" cells at a certain point in life? 
> 
> 
> And just if anyone didn't know already, Im all for peoples rights.


I say that jokingly . Did i use to date women ? Yes. A lot of it had to do with my environment . When you are growing up what do all your buddies talk about ? Having sex with women. I did the same to fit in even though i would think about guys. It was always there i just ignored it because it was the easier choice.

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## seriousmass

> So DSM, Tock, or anyone gay for that matter. There is actually a gay gene? But didn't you say you use to be straight (DSM)? *So is this gay gene like cancer and takes over "normal" cells at a certain point in life*? 
> 
> 
> And just if anyone didn't know already, Im all for peoples rights.


Oh my god. Seriously? 

*NO. being gay is not "a cancer.*" It's an imbalance of HORMONES in the body, which as a result create an altered sexual attraction. OF COURSE IT'S GENETIC. It's been proven many, many times. Most people who are gay WISH they weren't gay, and can't understand why they were "created" gay. 

Being homosexual is NOT a life-style choice. It's a hereditary trait.

Similarly, people who are transsexual, did NOT choose to feel as if they were born the wrong sex. It's completely reliant on hormones. Basically, my feeling is though that *homo-sexuality is not a "genetic defect"* rather* it's a form of evolution.* 

-- For anyone who doesn't understand why I consider homosexuality to be a form of evolution... consider this: a male-frog can ALMOST INSTANTANEOUSLY alter it's sex, and become a female, in order to reproduce... IMO homosexuality is just man-kinds version of this adaptation.

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> I say that jokingly . Did i use to date women ? Yes. A lot of it had to do with my environment . When you are growing up what do all your buddies talk about ? Having sex with women. I did the same to fit in even though i would think about guys. It was always there i just ignored it because it was the easier choice.


I see.... thanks for clearing that up.

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## countrybhoy

> Oh my god. Seriously? 
> 
> *NO. being gay is not "a cancer.*" It's an imbalance of HORMONES in the body, which as a result create an altered sexual attraction. OF COURSE IT'S GENETIC. It's been proven many, many times. Most people who are gay WISH they weren't gay, and can't understand why they were "created" gay. 
> 
> Being homosexual is NOT a life-style choice. It's a hereditary trait.
> 
> Similarly, people who are transsexual, did NOT choose to feel as if they were born the wrong sex. It's completely reliant on hormones. Basically, my feeling is though that *homo-sexuality is not a "genetic defect"* rather* it's a form of evolution.* 
> 
> -- For anyone who doesn't understand why I consider homosexuality to be a form of evolution... consider this: a male-frog can ALMOST INSTANTANEOUSLY alter it's sex, and become a female, in order to reproduce... IMO homosexuality is just man-kinds version of this adaptation.




are you saying in future years men will be able to do what this frog does .

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## JiGGaMaN

> are you saying in future years men will be able to do what this frog does .


i think thats what hes saying. you know its bad when even you thought that was a dumb comment.

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## countrybhoy

> i think thats what hes saying. you know its bad when even you thought that was a dumb comment.




sorry prof. didnt know we had mr Steven Hawkins on the form. guess im only missin the red color on my neck .  :Icon Rolleyes:

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## Flagg

> well i know im white and if my daughter came in with anything but a white man thier relationship would not last long . . if god had wanted all the same color we would be the same color . . but hey you want to call me thick knock yourself out m8 . call me racist if you want . dont care .



EXCEPT God had nothing to do with the colour of races and it might interest you to know that Jesus WAS NOT white. Inter-relationships are good because sure at some point there will have been so much mixing that the human race will become ONE COLOUR. Seeing the state of the world today, thats a good thing to look forward to.

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## Flagg

You know it pains me to hear people like you CountryBoy but at least your honest. My sister and brother in law are the same, saying their daughters will never date a black man when they are older. It's so beyond ignorant but what they don't realise is that if that is what their daughters will do they will be more resolute to do it. What's more important, your daughters happiness or your stupid pride?

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> EXCEPT God had nothing to do with the colour of races and it might interest you to know that Jesus WAS NOT white. Inter-relationships are good because sure at some point there will have been so much mixing that the human race will become ONE COLOUR. Seeing the state of the world today, thats a good thing to look forward to.





> You know it pains me to hear people like you CountryBoy but at least your honest. My sister and brother in law are the same, saying their daughters will never date a black man when they are older. It's so beyond ignorant but what they don't realise is that if that is what their daughters will do they will be more resolute to do it. What's more important, your daughters happiness or your stupid pride?



Bingo!

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## countrybhoy

> You know it pains me to hear people like you CountryBoy but at least your honest. My sister and brother in law are the same, saying their daughters will never date a black man when they are older. It's so beyond ignorant but what they don't realise is that if that is what their daughters will do they will be more resolute to do it. What's more important, your daughters happiness or your stupid pride?




m8 not just black hell dont tar me with this i hate black people thing. any thing but white or wrong i just believe we should not mix races. oh and i know jesus was not white he was an jewish arab .one friend of mine is black. and on my wife side with arabs well half breeds the husband is an iraqi so i guess the kids are half iraqi .as for one color being a good thing i think you might find there are a few of us that dont agree thats why this world is a beautiful place so many different cultures why change it to one .

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## JiGGaMaN

> sorry prof. didnt know we had mr Steven Hawkins on the form. guess im only missin the red color on my neck .


i just got finished recommending a bulking cycle for him.


i really wish i was born like 1,000 years in the future. the fact that i've read half the shit i did in this thread makes us look like we are still living in the stone age.

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## Tock

> I dont have to "hate gay people" to believe based on the facts and definitions at hand that it would be classified as a diseased state.


I didn't say that you hated gay people. You seemed to say that because you were heterosexual, you were normal. However, since I am gay, I am abnormal, and consequently, "diseased." Did I get that right?

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## SMCengineer

> Well Tock, you know my position on this as a libertarian, people can live however they want. However, by concluding that homosexuality is not a choice, and something you are born as, then you must take along with that the scientific rammifications. Anything deviating from the norm, is considered a diseased state, abnormality, malfunction, etc. I dont see anything wrong with this conclusion, other than it might not 'feel good,' or would be politically unpopular, but I am really a man of science, and could give two flying fu**s about political correctness and whether or not something hurts someones feelings. I have several gay friends, and dont view them any differently than my straight friends, nor do I find their lifestyle to be morally reprehensible. I have learned that nature provides many things which on the surface can appear to be a negative, and are actually a positive. For instance, the fact that many savonts and extremely intelligent people have a degree of Downs Syndrome. It is by definition a diseased state, although these people are capable of doing miraculous things. But please, do not try to misrepresent the scientific rammifcations of deciding that being gay is not a choice, just because it might not sound good, or hurt your feelings. It is what it is. 
> 
> *"a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment."*


I believe most people in this thread are making the false assumption that the terms diseased state and abnormal are deragatory terms or that they are necessarily bigoted/hurtful designations. When, in fact, the opposite is true.

With that said however, would it be proper to classify homosexuality as a diseased state or abnormal when vital physiological functions, namely reproduction, are not actually interepted? For example, the desire or need to sleep with the same sex does not prevent one from reproducing if the need arose. Indeed, the function still exists, but a hormonal imbalance simply sends a false signal and the sex organs proper functions are merely dormant albeit remaining.

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## Flagg

> I didn't say that you hated gay people. You seemed to say that because you were heterosexual, you were normal. However, since I am gay, I am abnormal, and consequently, "diseased." Did I get that right?



If you look at it in a purely scientific and evolutionary point of view, being homosexual is detrimental to a species continued survival. If it was the norm, don't you think there would be a far greater percentage of homosexual people in our population?

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## thegodfather

> I believe most people in this thread are making the false assumption that the terms diseased state and abnormal are deragatory terms or that they are necessarily bigoted/hurtful designations. When, in fact, the opposite is true.
> 
> With that said however, would it be proper to classify homosexuality as a diseased state or abnormal when vital physiological functions, namely reproduction, are not actually interepted? For example, the desire or need to sleep with the same sex does not prevent one from reproducing if the need arose. Indeed, the function still exists, but a hormonal imbalance simply sends a false signal and the sex organs proper functions are merely dormant albeit remaining.


People affected with Trisomy 21 (Downs Syndrome) are still able to reproduce, and have done so. The issue is not whether the vital physiological functions are present, but rather the cause of the sexual disposition. If, as DSM as stated, homosexuality is caused by a gene in the DNA of humans, then this would be a "diseased" gene, since it causes an orientation significantly contrary to the established norm. If it were instead just a matter of preference, it would not be much different than say, preferring to bang asians over caucasians, or liking whips and chains over normal sex.

Using the definitions we have today, and the one I have posted, if there is a gay gene, then it could rightly and accurately be classified as a disease. It is just very politically unpopular to do such, however I dont think that science should start changing definitions and making exceptions, just because it might hurt some peoples feelings. If you claim that homosexuality is not a choice, and rather a trait caused by a gene, then you have to accept the additional rammifications of that. 

I dont see how that designation changes the plight of gay people in any possible way? I am still for full marriage rights and all other rights that every other human being enjoys in the United States. Just as I dont think people with cancer should be precluded from marrying, I dont think that gay people should be precluded either.

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## Tock

Depends on how you look at it when you look at it.

In times of overpopulation, homosexuality could be seen as a constructive adaptation, not detrimental to a species' survival.

And, in response to your second comment, a certain percent of homosexuality in many species is in fact normal. 
http://www.livescience.com/animals/0...y-animals.html


In any event, this planet's ecosystem would be much better off with fewer humans, rather than the go-for-broke baby-making policies common to so many 3rd world nations. That's where homosexuality is clearly a good thing. Some countries take a dim view of gay sex, and nations such as China prefer to punish both heterosexual couples who have more than one child as well as gay couples who have no children at all. Other countries practice female infanticide, with the result that over time, there are many more adult males than adult females for coupling, yet homosexuality is banned.

Ya, from a purely evolutionary point of view, I'd say that human's inclination to overpopulate this planet, overconsume its resources, and overpollute its lands and oceans, will sooner or later result in uncomfortable circumstances. But since humans can't find ways to control reproduction, as a species, we'll end up f***ing ourselves to death.







> If you look at it in a purely scientific and evolutionary point of view, being homosexual is detrimental to a species continued survival. If it was the norm, don't you think there would be a far greater percentage of homosexual people in our population?

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## Tock

Or, it could be an adaptive change to ensure survival of the species as a whole.




> If, as DSM as stated, homosexuality is caused by a gene in the DNA of humans, then this would be a "diseased" gene, since it causes an orientation significantly contrary to the established norm.

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## thegodfather

> Or, it could be an adaptive change to ensure survival of the species as a whole.


That is exactly what cancer is. It isn't nice to say, but cancer is evolution. It is a mutation within a cell, causing it to divide erratically and to perform certain functions in a different way. When it works to the organisms advantage, the person has no idea and goes on living the rest of their lives. If a mutation occurs which is not favorable to the organism, it dies, as we see with the many victims of cancer. It does not change the fact that definitionally it is a disease.

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## Flagg

> Depends on how you look at it when you look at it.
> 
> In times of overpopulation, homosexuality could be seen as a constructive adaptation, not detrimental to a species' survival.
> 
> And, in response to your second comment, a certain percent of homosexuality in many species is in fact normal. 
> http://www.livescience.com/animals/0...y-animals.html
> 
> 
> In any event, this planet's ecosystem would be much better off with fewer humans, rather than the go-for-broke baby-making policies common to so many 3rd world nations. That's where homosexuality is clearly a good thing. Some countries take a dim view of gay sex, and nations such as China prefer to punish both heterosexual couples who have more than one child as well as gay couples who have no children at all. Other countries practice female infanticide, with the result that over time, there are many more adult males than adult females for coupling, yet homosexuality is banned.
> ...




It was quite an interesting read, and I can see why it could be viewed as means of stopping a species from exceeding it's carrying capacity but you have to realise that humans have far exceeded their carrying capacity due to the lifestyle we have and medical technology, the only other species with a high birthrate and low deathrate are viruses. I will agree that homophobia does seem isolated to the human race, after all...a male has a better chance at spreading his genes if there are less males to compete with. However I do wonder if in the case of the two male penguins raising chicks, if they are homosexual. Some animals will adopt and nurture young that are not their own, in zoo's there have been instances of pigs raising tiger cubs. As to why evolution hasn't elimated homosexuality, well...prehaps you are right. Prehaps it is a controlling mechanism to prevent over-population.

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## Tock

There's a big difference between cancer cells on skin or lung tissue, and gay people in a society.

Cancer is a disease. It spreads throughout the host organism until it ultimately kills it. 

Homosexuality is a variation of sexuality found in animals and humans, not a disease. It is entirely without the unhappy consequence that accompanies cancer. 






> That is exactly what cancer is. It isn't nice to say, but cancer is evolution. It is a mutation within a cell, causing it to divide erratically and to perform certain functions in a different way. When it works to the organisms advantage, the person has no idea and goes on living the rest of their lives. If a mutation occurs which is not favorable to the organism, it dies, as we see with the many victims of cancer. It does not change the fact that definitionally it is a disease.


Your definitions are too narrow. Not every mutation is a disease. Sometimes it is, more often it's a harmless variation. Homosexuality is just that--a harmless variation. An inclination for gay sex does not preclude an individual from procreation. Lots of gays and lesbians have children. 
Lots of heterosexuals don't have children. Some because they're too ugly to find a mate (is ugliness that results in not having children a disease?) and some because of religious reasons (is a mind that makes a vow of celibacy diseased?). 

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. But I'm sure you will understand that people won't thank you for making derogatory statements ("You're diseased because you're gay") about them based on personal characteristics.

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## DSM4Life

When i start looking at divorce rates and abandoned child from you so called "normal" people i tend to believe you are the defective one.

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## thegodfather

> When i start looking at divorce rates and abandoned child from you so called "normal" people i tend to believe you are the defective one.


I always get a good laugh when a politician talks about the "sanctity of marriage." 

Anyway, I see your point Tock. However, I dont believe anything I said was disparaging. I was arguing a definitional point, not in anyway attempting to make disparaging or hurtful remarks, as I view all people as individuals regardless of any number of collective factors that we try to use to group people now days. The point of the conversation was whether or not it would definitionally be classified as a disorder/disease if caused by a genetic trait.

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