# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

## edraven29

do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

i beleive in god but seems like the older you get you ask these questions on and on and no proof or answer to all of this.

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## Pete235

Great question bro...honestly...I don't know. I wou;d like to believe there is a god and heaven but sometimes I find it hard to bend my mind around the idea. I was raised as Roman Catholic (lots of Irish in my blood) but at present don't really follow any organized religion. I don't see how giving your personal time to worship at a church will better your chances of getting into heaven. The bible is a record of ancient mans assement of certain events that have beens passed down through countless generations and mnay translations...isn't it realistic that somethings were lost over time? I don't know, I'm just asking. I mean no disrespect to those who have a strong faith this is just the way I feel. It is my belief that, if there is a God and Heaven, our souls will be welcomed based of who we are, what we did and how we lived our lives...not on how many hours we worshipped and how many commadments we followed. Lets face it, some of the strongest proponents of religion routinly break commandments. I also feel that religion discriminates in some ways, this leads to biggotry. Sorry to ramble.
Pete

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## edraven29

i am also a catholic and do beleive in god, but have not set foot in a church since i was 7 years old.

I do live a good life, i respect my girlfriend, and family and try to be good with all people to help them has much has i can.

I to beleve that if you respected others their will be a good place in heaven.

I am really chocked with what happened in NY becose the ones that did this are among the strongest beleivers in god on the planet, what made them think that god would approve of such a disaster???

This is behond me.

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## r6guy

I was raised as Roman Catholic also and I don't attend church frequently, but did you guys see the National Prayer Service? I thought it was pretty inspiring. G.W. Bush had a pretty good speech too. 

"There are no atheists in foxholes."

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## cosmokramer

I don't think just going to church will save you. And no you do not get into heaven just by going to church. Whoever believes their heart is not in the right place when they go. Most go to church to worship but they also go to learn. You can basically worship anywhere. Also I think a lot of people believe in God as something to hold on to in a time of need. It helps a lot knowing that you got someone on your side at all times especially in a world so unforgiving, as we all have seen in the recient terrorist attacks. Thats why we all tell peaple that we are praying for them when they are going through tough times. It makes them feel better when they know someone is thinking about them and wishing the best for them. I do believe in God and I also believe that everthing happens for a reason. I am by no means saying that this attack was justified, but I believe that something good will come out of this. Like goin affgana whatchamacallit and kicking some Lauden ass! :Big Grin:  

Cosmo

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## Tobey

Dear Pete and Edraven,
You are right about some things in your post and misinformed about others. I am sure that there are many who go to church to put on a show for their peers, however, most of the christians that I know go to church to learn and to ask for forgiveness. No christians are not perfect, we never claimed to be , we're just forgiven. We are forgiven because we belive in Jesus Christ, the son of God who was crucified died and bury. He was raise on the third day and he sits on his throne on the right hand side of God. Many religions belive in the same God, however doult Jesus's authencity as God's beloved son. Even the demons of hell believe in God but did they ever follow his commanments? Christians are givin commandments not just to live by but to benifit from as well. Yes God knows that we are going to come short of the task many times in our lives. It is in our nature as human beings to sin beause we are born into sin. That is why God sent Jesus, so he could bear our sins for us, but we can only recieve this gift if we belive in Jesus. Historians have proven that Jesus did walk the earth. Knowing this you have to belive 1 of 3 differnet possibilites. Either Jesus was a liar, or he was completely insane OR he was who he said he was, God's son. Christianity can not be proven. God never intended for it to be. For there to be proof would bring people to him out of fear not love and that was not God's intention. I to have trouble seeing how God could let such a terrible thing happen. But you must remember that Satan roams this earth as well and he is very powerful. His power lies in the deception that he can breed amongest men. Deception that may even lead one to fly a plane into a building of innocent people for no other reason than to kill. I still do not understan why thee peolpe hate Americans so much. Maybe it is a cultural thing I don't know but I know that Satan has his hand in there somewhere. All I can do is trust that somehow, in God's great infinite wisedom that there is a plan that may bring some goodness and closeur to such a horrible event. I pray that those who have beem directely effected may oneday find peace.
Tobey

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## CYCLEON

I must say very eloquently put Tobey. On the whole, I share these beliefs as well - I wish I had the time to add to your post but will say for those wondering how a good God can allow great evil like this to happen. It is all based on the principle of "free will". Because of this, we are able to chose to do whatever we wish, even harm others. God permits this "godlike" quality else we would be robots and incapable of having a relationship with Him. It is also this quality that allows God to righteously judge each person for his/her own actions, since ultimately every action is based on your decision to do so. For this reason also, I would tremble ot be one of the terrorists now standing before God to give account - for them, all that awaits for all eternity is the yawning chasm of hell

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## hard_lady

I absolutely believe there is life after death,and that it is a beautiful place.I am a nurse,and I have lost count of the number of people I have been with when they died.I have also been with a number of patients who we resuscitated,and the stories they tell are all the same..."a beautiful place"..."saw all my loved ones"..."why did you take me away from such beauty?"...I have actually had patients get mad because we "saved" them.I can also tell you,when I have been with the ones who died,the serenity they show when they die leads me to believe that there are wonderful,comforting things that wait ahead for them...even in the throes of severe pain,CPR,after severe Trauma(I am an ICU nurse in a large hospital)...so even though the last waking moments for these victims may have been terrible...the dying part wasn't(except for the bastards that did this-there is no beautiful place for them)

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## Pete235

Tobey,

I know you are aware that my post was not meant to inflame or stir things up. I was merely stating my personal beliefs. I respect your faith and I respect what you believe. You are a valued member of this board, you are very articulate and intelligent and I truly understand and appreciate your standpoint. Your points are valid your faith is evident. I hope I didn't offend you my friend. 

You may be right about Satan. Maybe he is responsible. Personally, I beleive that most humans are good but there are people who are bad....truly bad. The human brain is not even close to being fully understood. I think it is too easy to blame the many evil, vile unspeakable acts perpetrated by humans on a higher (lower) power. I believe there is a scientific explanation, but we are still very far from understanding why some people do what they do.

I guess I find it most difficult to believe in the old testament. To me, personally, the stories of Noah and Moses sound more like myths (Ala Odin, Zuess). I am a firm believer in Darwins theory of "Natural Selection" and as such I cannot even fathom the idea of creationism. To each his own, I do not begrudge anybody their personal beliefs. I'm a moral person, I respect others, I respect nature (I love animals), I try to be helpful, I'm a family man, I hold my wife in the highest regard and I have many friends who I cherish. However, I don't attend mass and I don't pray. I think/hope there is a higher power. My point is simply this...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven. 

Pete

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## Tobey

Hey Man,
Naw I was not offended in the least. I guess I kinda went on a tangent there sorry. Being a biology student for so many years I have had to take many evoultion courses. Yes evoulution can be proven and I am one of those rare few who believe that there is room for belief for both. True small populations have numerous disavantages for survival( homozygous alleles being driven up and hetorozygous alleles being driven down, natural cotastraphies wipeing out entire populations, ect ect.) as in the case of Adem and Eve. But for me to question the power of God's ability to halt any of these is to deine that he exist at all. If anything it strentghen my faith, however, I to have taken a backseat many times to when it comes to constsantly worshiping him like I should. I'm much like you in alot of ways. I'm a good person who always tries to do right by his fellow man. I do believe in Jesus and I have asked him to come into my heart as my lord and savior and that is my ticket into heaven. No man may enter into the kingdom of heaven through works alone least he boast. I truelly don't think that you could really say anything that would upset me that much Pete. Hell somtimes I think that if I walked up to some of the guys here at AR (you included) I would reconize them right off the bat. I know them that well. We'er family and that means everything in the world to me. Thanks for your apopolgy but it was not necessary. I think your the tops!
Your friend
Tobey

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## Pete235

Tobey,
You're a good man.
Pete

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## CYCLEON

Pete - u may be suprised to learn that, as a firm Christian, I also believe in Darwinian Evolution, its just that I do not believe that it is in conflict with God's creation.

Something I believe that you would enjoy reading. It is written by a highly acclaimed professor of biology at Brown University.

Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution

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## Sicilian30

wEll for those of you who say that they don't believe in life after death, why is it when something bad happens we tend to resort to God and prayer. I mean, I am not religious fanatic, but I do believe in the "Man Upstairs", flame me if you want, but it takes great faith to believe in something that isn't something we can touch. My question to you is, do you believe in satin? cause if you believe in him, then you have to conclude that there is a God. course all I need to do is look at a beautiful woman, and know, "that there is a God". heeee haaa. just alittle tension releaver..

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## BigMike J

Hard to say, sometimes i hold on to the idea, but there are times that i just don't know. My brother died a little over a year ago, is he still living in another form? It's hard to say. I guess i will know when my times comes.

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## KeyMastur

No, I don't. I take the scientist viewpoint. I don't believe in a God. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in miracles. Show me, and I'll believe. Until then, I stick to my own beliefs. But, I'm still a pretty good guy.

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## KeyMastur

> My question to you is, do you believe in satin?


of course i believe in satin. satin sheets, satin teddy's that my girl wears, satin boxers, a lot of things.

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## BigMike J

haha funny

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## bermich

LIFE AFTER DEATH:
I am not religious. I feel religion breeds hypocricy and seperation. A book translated 10,000 different ways and every one who holds onto that translation feels their religion is the correct one.

Life after Death is an oxy-moron. 
It helps those fearful of death live their lives. 
They feel that life is a waste if you can not bring any of what you worked for with you : Your memory, your essance.

How can you hold any of that as a spirit? What makes you you is your brain and your nervous system. Without those, you have no memory, no voice, no way of interacting with ANY physical realm

Sure, the movie ghost showed how a ghost can interact with physical objects explaining moving objects and visions. Come on now.

I watched that show " The other side with that John guy today. I couldnt watch more than ten minutes of it. That guy is SUCH A HACK he makes me sick for all the other con artists.

Im hearing a name, Marvin, murrey, miller. Then the person he is talking to says" I know a person named Michelle."
Yes Michelle. That is the name coming to me.
Now. Im getting a number 2. Now this number COULD mean 2 months, 2 years, 2 childnre.

He is so FUCKING vague to where he can not be wrong. He throws out a quarter of the puzzle and waits for the person to fill in the other 75 percent making him look like that is what he meant.

Once the brain stops receiving oxegon, we are dead. The brain, and all that we are is dead. Our memories, our ambitions, our emotions. How can spiritual energy contain ANY of that? How does energy contain memory to know where it used to live? 

Life after Death keeps people from committing bad things on people. Sure you can get arrested but what you really wonder is eternal life. You dont wanna be in hell forever. 
If we knew there was no one to judge us after life, there would be a lot of murders and sins going on.
Its all a scare tactic....

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## Tock

Not really . . .

But in a way, yes . . . 
Every day your body sloughs off cells and you make contributions to the little white bathroom chair, and all that stuff eventually gets recycled in the environment, becomes fertilizer for plants, and then animals eat the plants, and etc etc until maybe some of the atoms that you crapped 20 years ago ends up in the produce dept at someone's local supermarket. When a person eats that produce, part of what used to be you ends up a part of someone else's eyeball (or maybe a dog, cow, etc).
So, in the sense that atoms in our bodies are continuously recycled in the environment, yah, we can safely say that the material we are made of today will end up in another plant or animal sooner or later.
But that's about it . . .

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## Tobey

> Not really . . .
> 
> But in a way, yes . . . 
> Every day your body sloughs off cells and you make contributions to the little white bathroom chair, and all that stuff eventually gets recycled in the environment, becomes fertilizer for plants, and then animals eat the plants, and etc etc until maybe some of the atoms that you crapped 20 years ago ends up in the produce dept at someone's local supermarket. When a person eats that produce, part of what used to be you ends up a part of someone else's eyeball (or maybe a dog, cow, etc).
> So, in the sense that atoms in our bodies are continuously recycled in the environment, yah, we can safely say that the material we are made of today will end up in another plant or animal sooner or later.
> But that's about it . . .



Ok Tock I have to ask. 
Exactly what biology class did you get this from?

Tobey

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## Tock

> Ok Tock I have to ask. 
> Exactly what biology class did you get this from?
> 
> Tobey




Not so much a particular biology class as a combination of a wide range of reading, observation, and general information. Pretty much, just your basic "Food Chain" with provisions for the waste all that eating generates. Add in a touch of materialist philosophy (which makes a lot of sense to me) and voila!

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## punk_bbuilder

I wish i knew....one of my biggest fears is that this is it...I really hope there is something else but if not... i dont want one any regrets on this world....i already have to many. Damn life is short.

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## wakatak87

ok

i was raised as a christian, and as i got older it seemed harder and harder to believe because of all the other religions and how it really seems like we might have just evolved from single celled organisms, and if there is god how are we sure which religion is right blah blah blah......

a MAJOR thing was nearly all the chirstians i know really annoy me, they are really lame and boring goody goody kids who dont know how to have good fun (it doesnt have to be illegal stuff by the way)

BUT....
then you think about when chirstianity first started.....

i read in history that many chirstians were thrown into lions pits and died very bravely... enough so that one roman person (who himself wasnt christian) wrote something about how brave they were when they died.

think about this:

would you tell people you really saw god and he told you the truth and let people know your chirstian when you KNOW youll be eaten by lions or crucified, and then do these without being scared?

just so you could be like hahaha now they believe that jesus guy was the son of god ahaha boy did i get them hahaha oh man im good?

(a lot of people did this by the way)

so thats mostly why im christian, and also whats the point in taking the chance of being in hell forever. seems like a bad spot.

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## Sicilian30

Well let me ask you guys this? Do you believe in asteral projection? The thought of our "spirit" or soul leaving the body has actually been proven that it does work. The government actually uses it as a weapon. So with that thought how can you say we have no soul. That soul has to go somewhere when we die? Where does it go? What about ghosts? 
This is a tough question, and everyone has their own logic, and I respect that. But hey if we all agreed on everything the world would be one boring ass place!

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## bermich

YES I BELEIVE IN LIFE AFTER DEATH. This thread was dead six months ago and now it is REBORN. Howaluya.
Praise the lord.

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## Da Bull

No..........

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## caturpilar

> YES I BELEIVE IN LIFE AFTER DEATH. This thread was dead six months ago and now it is REBORN. Howaluya.
> Praise the lord.


 :ROFLOL:  


My dad once told me that the world we live in is hell and you can only go up. I believe in god, but I think we all become worm dirt in the end. Kind of contradicting but it works for me.

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## LuvMuhRoids

No...

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## MilitiaGuy

if their is no life after death then wher is the justice ,criminals must be punished for their crimes if they escaped world punishment so i beleive their is hell and heaven

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## Tock

> if their is no life after death then wher is the justice ,criminals must be punished for their crimes if they escaped world punishment so i beleive their is hell and heaven




Just because "Criminals should be punished for their crimes" doesn't prove anything. Tragedy happens every day, and the 'bad guys' win more often than they should, and suffer no consequenses. 

Consider all the terrible religious leaders in Medeival Europe who killed heretics for centuries and were handsomely rewarded for their efforts, while the religious leaders on the other side were doing the same thing. 
It's pretty sad . . . but that's the way it is . . . people have not advanced much in civilization beyond the stone age. Technically, yes, but as far as justice goes, no.
--Tock

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## groverman1

I believe in the opposite of whatever Tock believes.

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## Tock

> I believe in the opposite of whatever Tock believes.



Why not? It saves you the bother of thinking for yourself . . .
-Tock

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## Jade

I think when you die you come back again as a baby and you do this over and over again until you get it right. I think that is why some people can learn things or pick up on things easier then other people, they have done it a few times already and they are getting better at this thing called life. Then when you really do it right you get to go to heaven.

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## Solrock

You are God. This is your dream. You are making this all up. Even the parts you do not like. Everything and every person you encounter is a part of you.

Your past lives and future lives are all of the lives you see around you, all of the lives that have ever been or ever will be. 

There is no escape. This is your eternal dream. You are free to make it a Heaven or a Hell. In truth, you have made it all of these, and will continue to do so for all of eternity. 

Seeing yourself, hearing yourself, tasting yourself, feeling yourself, killing youself, birthing yourself...

Discovering yourself, forgetting yourself... only to discover yourself again... dreaming. Eternally dreaming.

"Row, row, row your boat
gently down the stream
merrily merrily merrily merrily
life is but a .............."

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## decadbal

i do

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## Danielle

i do believe in life after death.........i truly hope there is...........this cant be all there is too life...........there must be more out there then this..........

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## ItalianMuscle27

Is that you in your Avatar, Danielle? One Helluva bod.. 

O sorry I lost my train of thought, yea I believe there is too. But dont want to find out just yet.

X..

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## ice101ownzme

> I think when you die you come back again as a baby and you do this over and over again until you get it right. I think that is why some people can learn things or pick up on things easier then other people, they have done it a few times already and they are getting better at this thing called life. Then when you really do it right you get to go to heaven.


althoguh i am catholic, my whole life i have kinda of believed the same exact thing. i used to think that souls kind of follow eachother, for example your brother might be your best friend, or your father in your next life, and we keep this cycle until we have finally reached the "perfect human" i guess u can say, then its off to that better place. to me this always made the most sense to, but then sometimes when i thought about it, it didnt.. there are few things i believe in, life after death? i want to, obvously. but do i? 

one time i sent an email to my biology teacher, saying the reason i dropped her class was infact because it contradicted everyhting i believed (real reason was because i was lazy, and i absolutly cant stand studying it) but in that email, i stated all the reasons of controdiction, and i have to tell you, after writing the email i really did kinda looked at it and think "o ****, what if im right? "what if science goes against everything that we as humans want to believe (which it does) and thats it, thats all there is to it" i really kinda scared myself.

so do i believe? honeslty i have no clue, but i will keep walking this life pretending that i do, in hopes that in the end of whatever i might go through, i will go on to that better place

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## skinjob

"...Yes evoulution can be proven and I am one of those rare few who believe that there is room for belief for both. True ...." "....as in the case of Adem and Eve... "

(this is not aimed at the author of the above who is clearly reasonable and sensible)

i think those that read the bible and take it as a literal document of fact are dangerously stupid, literally. pity there are so many of them and that so many of them are utterly willing to completely ignore many of the other more basic tenets of their faith eg. tolerance, compassion, love etc. in favour of getting hung up on very extreme literal interpretations.

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## DBarcelo

According to the Bible, there is no life after death until the resurection. The 1st resurection is of the set number of people that are going to heaven and the second resurection is that of the rest of the people that will be given the chance to live on earth or face the second death. If you do believe in the Bible, it's all written in Revelations.

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## skinjob

I reckon most of the bible was written by twisted old men

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## skinjob

The King James was the first bit of political spin ever devised. what a horrible, ugly book.

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## skinjob

even more embarassing is that James was a Scot. o dear. the shame. o well. at least we got JLB later on.

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## DBarcelo

> I reckon most of the bible was written by twisted old men


If you believe in the Bible and if you know the Bible, it says that it was written by the hand of man but inspired by God himself. So, they could have been twisted old men really, but with God's guidence in doing something, their own personal imperfections mean nothing and have no impact on the Bible.

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## DBarcelo

> The King James was the first bit of political spin ever devised. what a horrible, ugly book.



The King James version has been accepted by almost every Christian group as being the most accurate version of the Holy Scriptures. If the King James Version is the most accurate version, then how could it also be the first bit of political spin? Other, inaccurate versions could be considered to have some political spin.

Unless you're assuming that the King James Version is the first Bible and that the Bible itself is the first bit of political spin ever, but then the Bible really isn't political in nature, even though there are parts that refer to the government and politics, but it does talk about the fall of government. So if it were written by man to promote politics or to make people more accepting of government, why would they spell out the end of their own government?

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## DBarcelo

> even more embarassing is that James was a Scot. o dear. the shame. o well. at least we got JLB later on.


What does James being a Scott have to do with anything?? Why would that be a shame?? King James didn't write any part of the Bible, he just financed the scribes that coppied the Bible and duplicated it.

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## Maraxus

Its comforting to think that there is life after death. Although I really doubt it. I guess I'll just be taking a dirtnap when I die. Thats why youve got to live up life guys.

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## CutMeUp

anyone ever seen the movie Stigmata? that explains it all. the catholic church hides parts of the bible in order to keep their church going. in the movie there are scriptures left out of the bible that have god saying that we do not need church, but that he is all around us all the time and therefore no need for walls to harness his love. 

churches exist bc people like to be accepted. and in order to be accepted there has to be a group to accept you. so people go to church to be accepted. IMO, church has little or nothing to do with what people believe. most people go to church bc "they are supposed to". 

ive come full circle bc i went from not believing at all to finally coming to my senses and realizing that there has to be a god. there is no other explanation as to how the universe was created. on the other hand i dont think that god plays a very large role in day to day life. i see it like a movie. he set the universe up the way he wanted and pressed play. its up to us now. i have a theory that he does this over and over and each master species eventually kills itself off and then he starts over.

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## max2extreme

> Tobey,
> 
> I know you are aware that my post was not meant to inflame or stir things up. I was merely stating my personal beliefs. I respect your faith and I respect what you believe. You are a valued member of this board, you are very articulate and intelligent and I truly understand and appreciate your standpoint. Your points are valid your faith is evident. I hope I didn't offend you my friend. 
> 
> You may be right about Satan. Maybe he is responsible. Personally, I beleive that most humans are good but there are people who are bad....truly bad. The human brain is not even close to being fully understood. I think it is too easy to blame the many evil, vile unspeakable acts perpetrated by humans on a higher (lower) power. I believe there is a scientific explanation, but we are still very far from understanding why some people do what they do.
> 
> I guess I find it most difficult to believe in the old testament. To me, personally, the stories of Noah and Moses sound more like myths (Ala Odin, Zuess). I am a firm believer in Darwins theory of "Natural Selection" and as such I cannot even fathom the idea of creationism. To each his own, I do not begrudge anybody their personal beliefs. I'm a moral person, I respect others, I respect nature (I love animals), I try to be helpful, I'm a family man, I hold my wife in the highest regard and I have many friends who I cherish. However, I don't attend mass and I don't pray. I think/hope there is a higher power. My point is simply this...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven. 
> 
> Pete


Pete and others who may believe this. This is not a flame, I once believed this too, but I've learned (and still learning, everyday learning) (and I havnt finished reading the thread if others said this, I apologize, but what you said about "...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven" is totally wrong. We can not get to heaven thru our own actions. If we could "work" our way to heaven, then we wouldn't need a Savior. Jesus would not have had to die in our place. But we do need a Savior because all our good works still fall short of the Glory of God

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No on comes to the Father except through me."

Isaiah 57:12 "I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will NOT benefit you"

Isaiah 64:6 "Your righteous acts are like filthy rags"

So how is it that you get to heaven, thru grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, its is a gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

So its easy...pray and ask Jesus to save you, confess you're a sinner, believe in it, and you will go to heaven.

BTW, if you havnt read the "Left Behind" series of books, They are GREAT!

later,

max

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## Tock

> So its easy...pray and ask Jesus to save you, confess you're a sinner, believe in it, and you will go to heaven.


LOL . . . so you're saying that if an asshole like Adolph Hitler had confessed he was a sinner, he would have gone to heaven, while a saint like Mother Teresa who devoted her life to caring for the poor would have gone to writhe in the eternal agonies of hellfire and ****ation, all because she had been "mistaken" in her theology?
If that is true, then what does that say of the nature of the god who created this bizarre scheme? 







> BTW, if you havnt read the "Left Behind" series of books, They are GREAT!


And if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, you'll find a disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction."

--Tock

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## Pale Horse

Yes I believe in life after death, even for my beloved Tock! Everyone knows why I do so no need to explain. I believe that the creator God will make allowances for us all to make it "wiggle room" if you will. To him we are all infantile anyway, he has to understand we are basically morons compared to him .

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## max2extreme

> LOL . . . so you're saying that if an asshole like Adolph Hitler had confessed he was a sinner, he would have gone to heaven, while a saint like Mother Teresa who devoted her life to caring for the poor would have gone to writhe in the eternal agonies of hellfire and ****ation, all because she had been "mistaken" in her theology?
> If that is true, then what does that say of the nature of the god who created this bizarre scheme? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, you'll find a disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction."
> ...


Yes, if Hitler confessed his sins. If he truly repented. Believed in what the bible teaches and that the only way into heaven is thru Jesus, then yes, Hitler too would be allowed in heaven. This shows the forgiving nature of our god.

And yes, if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, or whatever, just look at it, it says that. Ok. I dont know. If you say so. I never said it was anything. I just said it was a good series. Its a fictional novel with christian references.

-Max

----------


## Tock

> Yes, if Hitler confessed his sins. If he truly repented. Believed in what the bible teaches and that the only way into heaven is thru Jesus, then yes, Hitler too would be allowed in heaven. This shows the forgiving nature of our god.
> -Max



It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is. 
IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
-Tock

----------


## Tock

> I believe that the creator God will make allowances for us all to make it "wiggle room" if you will.



Got a scripture to back that up?
-Tock

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## Pale Horse

Nope, that's my hope...I can dream can't I?

----------


## Salesianito

I just believe in god.......

----------


## max2extreme

> It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
> Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
> According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is. 
> IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
> -Tock



This goes back to the topic of 'You cant get into heaven based on your works.' To us, yes, Mother Teresa is a great person. But the best works we could do still falls short of the Glory of God. Thats just how it is. Its in the bible. Its like this, lets say you are a GREAT person. (which im not saying you arent..haha but just go with this. *smile*) and you are law abiding, and blah blah. lets say you are a ruler of a small town. you decide who lives in your town and who doesnt. you dont want no trouble or anything. well, lets say you have a group of people, lets give a number of 50 people. And we'll keep their sin to only one, all of them are murderers. And all of them kill, would kill, have killed or whatever for no reason at all. Just because. But there is one person who murders only if someone gets mad at him. To that group of 50 people, that one guy is a pretty nice guy. He murders for a reason. If anyone gets into this town of yours, its him. Are you going to let him into your town? knowing that he is a murderer and has murdered and if he gets mad, hes gonna murder your people. Thats how I can rationalize it. We are that group of 50 people. To us, there are great people that we believe should get into heaven. True its not murder that we are talking about with Mother Theresa, but in God's eyes, we are all sinners. And only after we repent and thru jesus will he let us into heaven. Just as if this guy truly repented, you'd let him into your town. (repent as in seeing the repentance as God does. Of course as people, we cant see if someone truly repents, but God can).

Max

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## max2extreme

> Got a scripture to back that up?
> -Tock



"I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you" 
(Isaiah 57:12)


no wiggle room. We have all this hope that our good deeds will get us into heaven. We hope there's this 'wiggle room'...but if you believe in heaven. And you believe in God. As seems most people in this thread do, why is it so hard to believe in the bible, god's word? 

-max

----------


## Tock

> "I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you" 
> (Isaiah 57:12)
> 
> 
> no wiggle room. We have all this hope that our good deeds will get us into heaven. We hope there's this 'wiggle room'...but if you believe in heaven. And you believe in God. As seems most people in this thread do, why is it so hard to believe in the bible, god's word? 
> 
> -max




Cool.
Give Heaven to a mass murderer like Adolph Hitler who repents on his deathbed, and send Mother Teresa to an eternity of unspeakable torment after a lifetime of caring for the poor and needy. 
If that is the message of the Bible, who f---- needs it?
-Tock

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## Pale Horse

Max I believe in God and his word. I also believe that we are but infants in his eyes. Intolerance is a sin and judgment is a sin and I am in no position to say what is right or wrong for others but to lead my life in Gods word. I think that God wants EVERYONE to make it to heaven, he doesn't want to lose a single soul. Repentance is an example of "wiggle room". God is not fatalistic but full of Grace.

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## max2extreme

1victor, i think we are talking about the same thing. I believe god wants everyone to make it to heaven as well. And everything in your post. I guess I was still talking more about those who feel their good deeds will get them to heaven. If by wiggle room someone meant "I believe in god. Im a good person. I try not to sin. Ill get into heaven." then no, thats wrong. But i dont think you meant that now...If you repent, and for those who misunderstand, by repentance, its not just "im sorry" by repentance, its a change of lifestyle that because of and causes you not to want to sin again, then yes, repent, truly mean it, sometimes "mess up", etc repent...and you truly are a christian, etc etc..then you'll go to heaven, that how I believe too. 

Tock, of course its going to seem totally outrageous because of the extreme examples you have chosen, but it still stands. Of course (i believe) mother teresa is in heaven now, but you never know her true thoughts. But by true repentance, you are forgiven. Thru Jesus Christ. By true repentance, hitler on his death bed, god would know, that if hitler was given another chance to go back, he would not do any of that again, then the gates are open. If hitler repented just because hes dying, but truly if he werent dying, hed start back or given another chance would do the same as he did, then god would see this and he would be sent to hell. 

You ask "who F---- needs it?" And Im as serious as I can get. Everyone. Human life is short. But eternity is well, eternity. Revelations should scare a non-christian. Read it and just imagine, what if? What if all this is true. read what you are going to go thru. the hell. literally and figuratively. Perhaps someone who reads this and does the what if, and it scares them, will read the bible more, learn, and truly believe...

-max

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## Pale Horse

Now I understand what you meant.

----------


## Jantzen4k

if you dont believe, just watch The Travel Channel's special on Haunted Hotels. That sh*t is scary. This guy has a picture of a spirit on the ceiling. people claimed that its just smoke but he claims that noone smokes in the building. made me a believer

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## Cyto78

I've seen ghosts twice in my life as clear as day........I have also experienced a few other extreme events in my life that has made me conclude within my own heart that yes there is a god.


Interesting.....

Revelation 14:10 says, " . . . and he shall be tormented with fire and BRIMSTONE . . ." And Job 18 describes the " . . . PLACE of him that knoweth not God" (vs 21), in verse 15 as, " . . . BRIMSTONE shall be scattered upon his habitation." Do you know what brimstone is? It's sulfur. And do you know where sulfur or brimstone is found? INSIDE THIS EARTH! According to the book Volcanoes by Pierre Kohler (p. 43), when Mt. St Helens erupted in 1980  150,000 tons of sulfurous gas was ejected! Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written over 3,000 years ago, and yet Job knew what science wouldn't know for years  inside this earth is BRIMSTONE! 

Nature magazine recently discovered (July 2002) what the Bible knew over 3,000 years ago. Inside this earth is "fire and brimstone": 


http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

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## Badgerman

I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.

----------


## Pale Horse

Bader, WOW! Very insightful you knocked me for a loop!

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## Badgerman

> Bader, WOW! Very insightful you knocked me for a loop!


wierd, huh?

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## Pale Horse

Yes indeed. I never would have guessed.

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## Badgerman

> Yes indeed. I never would have guessed.


Bro....when you reach the point of believeing God does everything, all the philosophical contradictions fall away......there's no "problem of evil" ....no deciding who made a real decision for the Lord......no talk about who goes to hell and who doesn't....and it relieves YOU of the agony of whether you have enough faith......it just strips away all the bulls*** that man has attached to God. Anyway, I believe it's pretty simple that way......sure the true believers
will be in the first resurrection.....but if you dig around there are a couple of verses......one talks about the believers begat by the will of God being the "firstfruits of ALL creation"........this is James 1:18......then if you look at how firstfruits work(it's also good to look at the feasts of Israel)......it basically says if the firstfruit is holy then the whole shebang is holy.......so it goes.....Jesus...THE firstfruit.....believers the firstfruit of ALL creation.......which in turn makes the whole creation holy
And I think Romans 11:16 supports that notion.


Now I know this is kind of unconventional, but to me it is the only way I can reconcile everything and not commit intellectual suicide.....

----------


## hung-solo

> do you guys beleive that there is life after death???
> 
> i beleive in god but seems like the older you get you ask these questions on and on and no proof or answer to all of this.


nope i believe what the native americans thought," you give back to the earth, what earth gave to you." therefore in a sense i guess you do live on one way or another..

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## hung-solo

> I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
> The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
> Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.


if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.

----------


## Pale Horse

Without purpose life has no meaning. To all that do not believe I would ask what is your puropse in life? What drives you? What consumes you and keeps you moving forward. It could be a good thing like love etc.. or it could be anger or hate..etc..

I ask all of you what is YOUR purpose in life. Please no shallow funny answers, I am genuinely interested in your responses.

----------


## hung-solo

> It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
> Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
> According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is. 
> IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
> -Tock


very nicely put tock! but that goes back to the "blind faith" i truly believe those are the ones suffering..

----------


## Badgerman

> if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.


It will all be fixed in due time, bro. Without a standard, how would you know the difference btween good and evil? Without God there would be no morality.....there would be no good and evil......just life......the very fact that you are outraged by the wrong should get ya thinkin.

----------


## MMC78

I for one know that *I* am going to heaven. So if any of you guys want good refs, you'd better be *extra* nice to me.

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## Tock

> Without purpose life has no meaning. To all that do not believe I would ask what is your puropse in life? What drives you? What consumes you and keeps you moving forward. It could be a good thing like love etc.. or it could be anger or hate..etc..
> 
> I ask all of you what is YOUR purpose in life. Please no shallow funny answers, I am genuinely interested in your responses.



There is no supernaturally established purpose in life. 
All that we humans are, is a lump of complex bio-electrical chemical reactions, and that's it. 
If there's any more, you gotta show how your reasoning is reasonable . . .
-Tock

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## Tock

> Without God there would be no morality.....



Lots of societies down through the years have done just fine without the Christian gods. Conversely, lots of societies WITH the christian religion live in misery--look at Europe during the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church's attempt to eridicate Democracy, all these crooked TV evangelists, child-molesting priests and ministers . . . I daresay that the Christian religion hasn't added anything to our society but fear and guilt.

The Bible's version of morality sucks big time . . . as we've covered in another thread, according to the Bible, it's possible for a person who spent his entire life tormenting other people to repent on his deathbed and go to heaven. But, a if person like Mother Teresa devotes her life to caring for the poor and homeless, but does not beleive and practice the correct Protestant theology, she's gonna be sent to burn in Hell forever.
Doesn't sound like Morality to me. 

-Tock

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## Badgerman

> Lots of societies down through the years have done just fine without the Christian gods. Conversely, lots of societies WITH the christian religion live in misery--look at Europe during the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church's attempt to eridicate Democracy, all these crooked TV evangelists, child-molesting priests and ministers . . . I daresay that the Christian religion hasn't added anything to our society but fear and guilt.
> 
> The Bible's version of morality sucks big time . . . as we've covered in another thread, according to the Bible, it's possible for a person who spent his entire life tormenting other people to repent on his deathbed and go to heaven. But, a if person like Mother Teresa devotes her life to caring for the poor and homeless, but does not beleive and practice the correct Protestant theology, she's gonna be sent to burn in Hell forever.
> Doesn't sound like Morality to me. 
> 
> -Tock


I never said that......one of the earliest practioners of Christianity was a universalist....Origen......plus the bible really says you will be judged according to your works......without works....faith is dead.......Also, true faith and Roman Catholicism are not necessarily the same thing.....do the works of the Inquisition show true faith??....no.....plus hell is referred to as "agelasting" not forever.......so when you hear the claim of I'm saved....don't take it at face value.....do the works fit the mouth.....most of the time they don't.....

----------


## Pale Horse

Tock, remove God from the picture what is your purpose, what drives you?

----------


## Tock

> Tock, remove God from the picture what is your purpose, what drives you?



At the bottom of it all, it's the age-old time-honored principles of pain and pleasure. Add in a few delusions, and that's about all there is. 

You might think that's depressing, not having the promises of heaven, but since there's no substantiation for those allegations, all we can say is that aside from a beleiver's "wishful thinking," it's all pie-in-the-sky. 

But it's not depressing at all, though, because just as there is no eternal heaven, there is no eternal punishment either. Any cause you may have had to be afraid of the afterlife is gone. Actually, the molecules that make up your body will decompose and become one with the environment, and those molecules will become a part of trees, flowers, bugs, even drinking water. What you are now will eventually be recycled into other forms of life, and probably into parts of other people.

The upshot is . . . ya better have a good life in the here and now, because this is the only chance you're gonna get. Love your family and friends, enrich yourself with relationships (important to me), look after your material needs, and enjoy whatever arts that bring you into harmony with your surroundings. 
That, plus a few cycles of dBol and Test, what else is there, besides fiction?

-Tock

----------


## max2extreme

> I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
> The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
> Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.


The bible totally contradicts this. It says nothing about judas or satan being saved. God did create everything. I guess you could say God created evil, or at any rate, he allowed it. But, and this is an honest question, where did you come up with this post? The lake of fire is purification? What are you basing this on? Satan will be saved?? Are you saying that for now, good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference, but in the end everyone is going to heaven? If so, where are you getting this? Its nowhere in the bible. Things like this may spark some 'human minds' but as christians, everything should be judged according to the bible. This really isnt insightful to me. Its just talk. And please dont turn this into me flaming you, im not. Im just conversing and listening, and giving what I think. 

-max

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## max2extreme

> nope i believe what the native americans thought," you give back to the earth, what earth gave to you." therefore in a sense i guess you do live on one way or another..



I dont believe "earth gave to me"...I believe God gave to me, thus I give all back to God.

-Max

----------


## max2extreme

> if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.



When I read your post hung, I thought immediatly of the bible verse that says "do not test your god". God can fix the mess, etc etc. Im sorry you had a loss in your family. I have too. Im not saying I know how you feel, I dont know you or anything, but you cant let losses cause you to turn against God. The point is that we are not robots and God has no intentions of controlling us. He wants us to make our own decisions and glorify him. God doesnt make bad things happen, he allows them to happen. Your uncle was a christian, thats great. Something bad happened to him, that sucks. But now hes in heaven because of the choices he made. 

-max

----------


## max2extreme

> I never said that......one of the earliest practioners of Christianity was a universalist....Origen......plus the bible really says you will be judged according to your works......without works....faith is dead.......Also, true faith and Roman Catholicism are not necessarily the same thing.....do the works of the Inquisition show true faith??....no.....plus hell is referred to as "agelasting" not forever.......so when you hear the claim of I'm saved....don't take it at face value.....do the works fit the mouth.....most of the time they don't.....



Kind of. It doesnt say you will be judged by your works. Thats just another way of saying you'll get into heaven based on your works. BUT, by being a good christian and living as such, you're works will reflect that goodness.

-max

----------


## max2extreme

> At the bottom of it all, it's the age-old time-honored principles of pain and pleasure. Add in a few delusions, and that's about all there is. 
> 
> You might think that's depressing, not having the promises of heaven, but since there's no substantiation for those allegations, all we can say is that aside from a beleiver's "wishful thinking," it's all pie-in-the-sky. 
> 
> But it's not depressing at all, though, because just as there is no eternal heaven, there is no eternal punishment either. Any cause you may have had to be afraid of the afterlife is gone. Actually, the molecules that make up your body will decompose and become one with the environment, and those molecules will become a part of trees, flowers, bugs, even drinking water. What you are now will eventually be recycled into other forms of life, and probably into parts of other people.
> 
> The upshot is . . . ya better have a good life in the here and now, because this is the only chance you're gonna get. Love your family and friends, enrich yourself with relationships (important to me), look after your material needs, and enjoy whatever arts that bring you into harmony with your surroundings. 
> That, plus a few cycles of dBol and Test, what else is there, besides fiction?
> 
> -Tock



Tock, I have a question that I dont need an answer to. I just want to ask it so you read it and only you will know. Does the question of God, Heaven, and Hell ever pop into your head? If so, do you ever think that its God trying to put a seed in? I mean I just wonder why such a thought would be placed there because you seem to have such stern, not anti religious, but you know what i mean, thoughts, that the question of there really being a God should not at all pop in your head.

What would it take to make you kinda believe, or almost, or think again about your thoughts of what the bible teaches? (this question it would be good for a reply, but up to you man..)

-Max

----------


## Tock

> The bible totally contradicts this. It says . . .


Who cares what the bible says? 
Only people who have FAITH in it do. The rest of us don't.
--Tock

----------


## Tock

> Tock, I have a question that I dont need an answer to. I just want to ask it so you read it and only you will know. Does the question of God, Heaven, and Hell ever pop into your head?


I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind. 







> What would it take to make you kinda believe, or almost, or think again about your thoughts of what the bible teaches? (this question it would be good for a reply, but up to you man..)
> -Max


Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.

I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.

On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs. 

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.

--Tock

----------


## max2extreme

> I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind. 
> 
> Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.
> 
> I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.
> 
> On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs. 
> 
> Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.
> ...


Now, did I ever once say anything wrong about your beliefs? Did I say anything at all about you not having enough courage to go against your friends/family/the general populous, thus you wont ever be a christian? I was simply discussing, debating if you will. I stated what I consider facts from the bible. If you are done with discussion, just say so. But dont send it to flames...(haha, kinda funny, flames.) 

But you know what, in reply, 

(1) Do you think it takes more courage to believe or not believe in the world we live in? Today or the past? At least for now, we dont die because we are christians like it used to be, but the day will come again. 

(2) I include myself in all my posts. My social life doesnt revolve around the church, unfortunatly. I struggle with sin just as everyone else does. I sin every day. The church doesnt and would not shun me or anyone else for this. (and you dont know me anyway, how can you even make a comment about my social life).

(3) Im happy I tore myself away from the ways of a non-believer and into the church. 


[QUOTE=Tock]On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs. 

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.


You write this as if there are soooo many more christians than there are non? Is this what you think? I have blind faith in the bible. If any doubts or questions come into my head, I look to the bible. If its there, its the truth. And then its not a doubt or question. If its not, or until I can find some supportive facts to either side, its a question. Im happy for my addiction. I wish I was more addicted.  :Smilie: 

If you really still want to discuss this, then good. Throw some challenges out. I have one for you. What do you think about the dead sea scrolls and how they were scientifically dated, but yet had things written on them that was later found, and proven to be dated AFTER the scrolls?? If you dont have an answer thats fine, it doesnt prove a point. Just as im sure you can ask me questions, tons of questions, that i wont have an answer for.

-max

----------


## MMC78

> I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind. 
> 
> Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.
> 
> I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.
> 
> On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs. 
> 
> Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.
> ...


This was a little over the top Tock. There's no noble reason to attack someone else's beleif system regardless of your own personal beleifs. You certainly aren't going to win any arguments by insulting them. And what are your motives for changing their mind if they incur no harm to you?

----------


## Todd Scott

> i am also a catholic and do beleive in god, but have not set foot in a church since i was 7 years old.
> 
> I do live a good life, i respect my girlfriend, and family and try to be good with all people to help them has much has i can.
> 
> I to beleve that if you respected others their will be a good place in heaven.
> 
> I am really chocked with what happened in NY becose the ones that did this are among the strongest beleivers in god on the planet, what made them think that god would approve of such a disaster???
> 
> This is behond me.


A good point my friend. All throughout history religion has killed billions of innocent people. Quite ironic really!

----------


## Badgerman

> The bible totally contradicts this. It says nothing about judas or satan being saved. God did create everything. I guess you could say God created evil, or at any rate, he allowed it. But, and this is an honest question, where did you come up with this post? The lake of fire is purification? What are you basing this on? Satan will be saved?? Are you saying that for now, good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference, but in the end everyone is going to heaven? If so, where are you getting this? Its nowhere in the bible. Things like this may spark some 'human minds' but as christians, everything should be judged according to the bible. This really isnt insightful to me. Its just talk. And please dont turn this into me flaming you, im not. Im just conversing and listening, and giving what I think. 
> 
> -max


I disagree with you. I believe you are one who thinks you can choose God.
I propose otherwise.

First, God is Almighty - He has ALL the power. "I am Almighty God." (Gen 17:1; Rev 15:3; etc.) 
In His All mightiness God creates ALL. "God who makes all things." (Gen 1:1; Qoh 11:5; Jer 10:16) 
In God's creating, God creates good. "I make alive ... I heal ... I make peace ... the Lord [YHWH] is good to all: and his mercies are over all his WORKS." (Gen 1:31; Deut 32:39; Pss 145:9; Isa 45:7) 
God even predestinates some to good. (Rom 9:21-23; Eph 1:4-5; etc.; 
But somehow in God's all powerfulness, He creates evil. "I kill ... I wound ... and create evil." (Deut 32:39; Isa 45:7) 
God even predestinates some to evil. (See Prov 16:4; Rom 9:21-23; 1Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4; 
Yet God will in the future make ALL THINGS NEW. "I make all things new." (Isa 65:17; Rev 21:5) 
And then ALL WILL BE IN GOD. "Then the end ... the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death ... that God may be all in all." (1Cor 15:24-28)
God even gives: 
the Spirit (1Cor 12:1; Gal 4:6 ff) 
repentance (Acts 5:31, 11:18; 2Tim 2:25) 
grace (Rom 11:5-6, 15:15) 
salvation (Titus 3:5-7) 



For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1Cor 15:22; see Pss 82:7-8; Rom 5:14-18).



"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection out of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order" (1Cor 15:21-23, NASB). 

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruit, after that those who are Christ's at His coming" (1Cor 15:23, NASB). 

Christ's resurrection was represented by the waving of the sheaf of the first fruits of Israel's first harvest of the year. Christians' resurrection was represented by Israel's spring harvest and its feast of weeks. The resurrection of the final harvest is represented by the final harvest of Israel in its feast of tabernacles. Another antitypical pattern is the Biblical Joseph (Christ), Manasseh (Christians), and Ephraim (the resurrection of the multitude of nations) 

"For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruit, after that those who are Christ's at his coming, then comes the end" (1Cor 15:22-24). 

The third order is resurrected at the end. The "end" Paul is speaking about here is amplified on in verses 24-28. The end comes when:

Christ has abolished all rule and all authority and power of his enemies (v. 24b & 25). 
The last enemy abolished is death. 
At that time ALL things have been put under Christ's feet (The exception to "all" is indicated in verse 27b). 
At that time God will be ALL in ALL. 


At the end there will be no death. This chapter in 1Corinthians chapter 15 is speaking about resurrections to life, about immortality. Thus, after the third resurrection to immortality, then death is abolished, then the God is ALL in ALL. Satan and his evil influence will be abolished. Death, Satan's greatest power (Heb 2:14), is abolished at the END. Since God is ALL in ALL at the "end," and since God is love (1John 4:8), then Biblical love will be in ALL at the "end." There will be NO evil. In Christ all shall be made alive. This is, alive in the Spiritual sense of alive - being immortal and being inside the true life, being inside of God and His true Biblical love.


After death is abolished, then comes true the saying, "death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?" (1Cor 15:54-55; see Hos 13:14)


Here is some further proof that all will be saved:

(1) "For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL" (Rom 11:32). 
(2) "For out of Him, and through him, and to Him, are ALL things" (Rom 11:36, see Greek text). 
(3) "The Lord is good to ALL, and His mercies are over ALL his works. ALL thy works shall give thanks to thee, O Lord" (Pss 145:9-10, NASB). 
(4) "And so ALL Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26). 
(5) "In the Lord shall ALL the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory" (Isa 45:25). 
(6) "ALL the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and ALL the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee" (Pss 22:27). [Here, in the antitype, it speaks of real worship; the only way you can really worship God is with the Spirit of God (John 4:24; Rom 8:8-9).] 
(7) "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of ALL flesh: is there any word too hard for me?" (Jer 32:27) 
God is the God of ALL flesh. But now in this age Satan is the god of the flesh belonging to this present evil age (2Cor 4:4). Thus at some future time God will truly be God of all flesh.

After Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead, God spoke to Moses, "I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exod 3:6). To give proof for the resurrection of the dead Christ said, "now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for ALL live unto him" (Luke 20:37-38).

By God calling Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob when they were dead, He was projecting their future resurrection to life. By God saying He is "God of ALL flesh," He is projecting the resurrection of all flesh to life in the future.

(8) "Praise ye the Lord: praise ye the Lord from heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, ALL HIS ANGELS ... Praise the Lord from the earth ... kings of the earth, and ALL people, princes, and ALL judges of the earth: both young men, and maidens; old men, children ... Let EVERYTHING that has breath praise the Lord" (Pss 148:1-2,7,11-12, 150:6). 
These Psalms were not placed in the Bible for mere words of hope; they are words of prophecy like Pss 22, 110, and all others. All will praise God in the truest sense (note Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10-11).

In order for ALL to praise God, then ALL must be resurrected to life. Thus,

(9) "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee" (Isa 38:18-19). 
As this scripture shows, for number (8) to come true, then all must be resurrected to life - Spiritual life.

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## decadbal

well lets all hope so

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## max2extreme

Badgerman,

I dont see anywhere in this post that answers the questions of my reply. Ill talk to one thing here, but after you read my reply, can you please break this post down into a smaller post that you think answers a certain question that I posed?? Thanks.

Ill reply to your number 8 for now though. 

(8) "Praise ye the Lord: praise ye the Lord from heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, ALL HIS ANGELS ... Praise the Lord from the earth ... kings of the earth, and ALL people, princes, and ALL judges of the earth: both young men, and maidens; old men, children ... Let EVERYTHING that has breath praise the Lord" (Pss 148:1-2,7,11-12, 150:6). 
These Psalms were not placed in the Bible for mere words of hope; they are words of prophecy like Pss 22, 110, and all others. All will praise God in the truest sense (note Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10-11).


Your number 8 is a call to praise the lord, not a prophesy that all will praise him. Though, if your meaning is otherwise, it does say that even demons, even the devil, all evil recognizes the Lord, they just dont choose to follow him, thus sending them to hell.


But please reply with specifics that you posted, with why you think this.

example: a)Prove to me that judas and satan will be saved.
b)Prove to me the lake of fire is just a purification and all will go to heaven.

If you include verses, explain what you think these mean, dont just put verses because my interpretation may be different than yours, and perhaps one can prove the other thru other verses...

Later man,

max

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## Badgerman

> well lets all hope so


That's what I mean......with God all powerful there is absolute hope......
with the way alot of so-called Christians view the world there is no hope at all
.....only doubts about "do I have enough faith"...."am I saved"....."why would a loving God send a baby to hell for eternity"......"what about those that never hear the gospel"......."why did God kill all those people in the Old Testament"......."how could Saul have the Holy Spirit and then be given an evil spirit"......."what if I'm pre-destined for an eternal hell"......questions most churchdom is SCARED to address......that's why you watch TV and there
is nothing but superficial crap on religious channels.......they do not know how to address the REAL questions that arise with any belief system that really make a difference in how you think......that is what can become a stumbling block for a searching mind.....inadequate answers to serious questions.

Max.... if you understand ALL in ALL.....you realize the lake of fire has to be gone in the end......there can be no evil anywhere......so it follows logically that Satan has to be brought into God......after all that's where he went out of.....like us.....and will be brought back.....without evil.......he was the cherubim on the left side of God

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## max2extreme

> That's what I mean......with God all powerful there is absolute hope......
> with the way alot of so-called Christians view the world there is no hope at all
> .....only doubts about "do I have enough faith"...."am I saved"....."why would a loving God send a baby to hell for eternity"......"what about those that never hear the gospel"......."why did God kill all those people in the Old Testament"......."how could Saul have the Holy Spirit and then be given an evil spirit"......."what if I'm pre-destined for an eternal hell"......questions most churchdom is SCARED to address......that's why you watch TV and there
> is nothing but superficial crap on religious channels.......they do not know how to address the REAL questions that arise with any belief system that really make a difference in how you think......that is what can become a stumbling block for a searching mind.....inadequate answers to serious questions.
> 
> Max.... if you understand ALL in ALL.....you realize the lake of fire has to be gone in the end......there can be no evil anywhere......so it follows logically that Satan has to be brought into God......after all that's where he went out of.....like us.....and will be brought back.....without evil.......he was the cherubim on the left side of God



2. All of the 'so called christians...' that you said and all those questions you wrote... christians dont have fears as such. christians dont wonder if they are saved. Im sure there are churches, in fact though I never been to one, there has to be. Im sure you are right there are some churches that are scared to address such things. but I would definatly not say all or most, or even half. thats one reason why you cant just go to any ordinary church. my fiancee and i spent 7 weeks going to different churches until we found the one that we like. and if you dont have that oppertunity, then its great to seek out yourselves and the internet is a great place for that. AS LONG as what you read, you dont take as the truth. Make sure you check yourself in the bible. All things I post here, please dont take as truth. Go check out the bible for yourself. write back, and maybe i was wrong about something, but dont just put out things here addressed to me as a rebuke to something i said and not back it up with bible scripture. (Badger, this isnt directed at you, just general comments, you do a good job). 

Support your second paragraph badger. It is true, in the end, all evil will be gone. Why does it follow logically that that means satan will be brought to god? Why cant it follow logically that that means satan and all evil will be abolished, destroyed? I dont have a bible with me at this time to prove this. But you look for passages to support your view on this, and Ill look and support my view. It may not be till tomorrow....But if you dont hear from me today, i fly back home tomorrow and will get online. (im out of town right now).

have a good one.

max

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## sorn

I want to believe but I can't say that I do. What I find one of the most stupid things christains (any other religions) say is that the animal soul is mortal but the human soul is immortal. I think that's dumb.. if we have afterlife I believe monkeys and dogs and other mammals also have one. Are we not mammals? Did we not evolve from monkeys? What about the neanderdalsman? 

I remember a story I heard by some christain from the TV. He was telling that story to strenghten the believe in afterlife. 
He said when some man who his wife knew died his dog began barking at the exact time of death. The dog ran around barking seemingly following something invisible which the narrator interpreted was the soul. 
The conclusion is Man has soul because his dog can see it... but according to Christain believes the dog hasn't one (STILL he can see it according to that christains story).

A dog would never see a soul if he hadn't one 'cause it wouln't mean anything to him. Evolutionary it wouldn't happen. Not that I believe dogs have immortal souls.. just pointing out another christian who preaches something which doesn't make sense even with his own believes. 

But one of the main problems I have with believing in afterlife is : people are always dying .. so where can you get the space for all those dead people. There's always new people coming in but noone dies (unless the afterlife is some kind of reincarnation).

Also of course there's no proof for afterlife.

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## Tock

Wow . . . check out THIS babtist church . . . talk about yer neighborhood tight-ass society . . .

www.landoverbaptist.org

-Tock

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## Bryan2

My beliefs are a litle different from the mainstream Christianty.

1 I beleive that people were never meant to die.
death is only a result of sin Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
"For the living know that they die; but the dead know not of any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, as the Bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish"(Psalm 146:3, 4)
At death mans spirit, his life-force which is sustained by by breathing, "goes out." It no longer exists. So mans senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell, and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working. According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.
When they are dead, both humans and animals are in this same state of complete unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." ( Ecclesiates 3:19, 20) the "spirit" that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.

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## Pale Horse

Bryan, I understand what you are saying but that is Old Testament thinking along the Jewish faith which is fine, it seems that your beliefs are more in line with them, just an opinion.

Sorn, free will is the major defining factor between humans and animals. Consciousness......... to do right and wrong, animals know no different this is where the soul lies. It is more complex than that, and of course it is my belief.

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## TexasFitnessGirl

I really enjoy reading intellectually stimulating posts. My entire life I believed without reservation in God, and the lord Jesus Christ. I spent hours teaching saunday school, leading the local youth group and praying in private. My life was a perfect picture. Then my husband left for a fishing trip to Cabo San Lucas Mexico, only to return in a cardboard box. Did this sway my faith, Oh no not at all - this is the time I leaned on my Lord Jesus Christ the hardest, I told him that I excepted death as a part of life and that he allowed my husband to have a glorious death perfectly fitting of a glorious man. My disbelief came when I asked the lord to take away not my pain, but the pain of my two children. I prayed that in the most difficult struggle of our lives, he make things a little simpler. Well my friends, sadly to inform you, i don't think he was listening. I still pray to him but sometimes I do wonder if the entire concept of heaven and hell was made up just so that during our time on earth we will attempt to set aside our own greed & desires because we think there is some just reward at the end or some terrible punishment for those who don't. I am an extremely forgiving person, I don't judge people unless I am kidding, I don't hate and I don't hold grudges. The only difference is that I do these things because I choose to be a good person not because I am afraid of being denied entrance into the kingdom of heaven. I am hoping that when I arrive - he will understand!

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## Pale Horse

It is one of the hardest things to do, to try to say the right thing or quote some verse or scripture to comfort someone who has lost so much. In human terms there are no words. Many if not all of the athiests on this board balk at the idea of faith as insanity or a "drug of the masses". The Bible says God knew you before you were born, He knows the number of hairs on your head, He knew who you would marry and everything about you and still does. Why would He let this happen to you? Only He knows the answer to that. This piece of "real estate" called earth that we are spinning around on is not meant for us (spiritual beings). The way the deal played out was that the devil has the "lease" if you will on this earth. And quite frankly he is a ****ty landlord, the place is a slum! We are given free will to act and react to everything that happens to us, for us or by us. This is a gift from God, the Angels don't even have free will. What are you doing now with your free will, where is it taking you? Are you pleased with the results? I am very sorry for your loss and especially for your children. I don't know but it sounds as if all faith is lost in you. How is that working for you in your life? God wants you to come home IMO he misses you and you will find comfort there. I understand that your heart has hardened and so does He. Either way God Bless You and Your Children. I'm sure this is the last thing you wanted to hear but I felt the need to respond somehow.

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## Red Ketchup

For me it's simple... when you die, it's over... period.

There is no heaven, no salvation, no god nothing... you are put in a box and worms eat you. End of story.

I have a hard time understanding how people can believe in all those stories they call religion... believing in things written in a BOOK by MEN... boggles my mind... but hey... whatever rocks your boat is fine with me... just don't try to get me in your boat, and please don't "pray for me" or "feel sorry for me" for not sharing your beliefs.

Red

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## Bryan2

1victor I beleive in the Bible in its entirety not just the old testament. 
Websters dictoinary describes hell as equal to the hebrew word sheol and greek word hades. The king kames version translated sheol 31 times as "hell" 31 times as "grave" and 3 times as "pit". King james version translated hades as hell each of the 10 times it occurs.If it translated into 3 different words and if means the common grave of mankind it could not at the same time be a place of fiery torture.the Hebrew word sheol and the greek word hades mean the same thing. look at Acts 2:31 in the christian greek scriptures and and Psalm 16:10 in the hebrew scriptures.Notice also that Jesus Christ was in hades or hell. So God tormented Christ in ahell of fire? NO Way!!!! He was simply in his grave. In all places where sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life,activity or torment. Rather it is often linked with death and inactivity.What about "hellfire and lake of fire" references then?
King james uses hell to translate Genhenna. Sheol and hades mean the grave but what about genhenna? In hebrew scriptures genhenna is the "valley Hinnom." Hinnom was the valley just outside the walls of jerusalem where the israealites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time King Joshiah banned the valley for such a horrible practice.(2kings 23:10) itwas turned into a huge garbage dump. During Jesus time genhenna was a garbage dump and fires were kept burning by adding brimstone to burn the garbage. So in (matthew 23:33) jerusalems people knew when he said "serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of genhenna?" It was clear he was using genhenna as a symbol of complete everlasting destruction and were not worthy of ressurection.
Lake of fire you ask? it means everlasting death, or destructin. Notice Revelation 20:14 :and death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire." Lake of fire means "second death."From which there is no resurection. Lake is a symbol because death and hell are thrown into it and you know they cant litterally be burned.But they can be done away with or destroyed.

Now What about heaven you ask?

The Bible states that only 144,000 actualy go to heaven to rule with Christ.(hebrews 12:22) (revelation 14:1, 3)




The Bible promises:"The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it" (psalm 37:29) Often the Bible tells of Gods arrangement to give humans who serve him everlasting life.-John 3:14-16, 36; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:3, 4. Man was made for the earth,and the earth for man. (genesis 2:8,9, 15)

My beleief is that after this system of things is brought to an end (Armageddon) then a paradise earth.after armageddon no part of this wicked world will remain. only persons who serve god will continue to live (1 John 2:17) After armageddon Gods kingdom will be the only government ruling over the earth. Satan and his demons will be gone.(Revelation 20:1-3)

People were meant to live forever, and after this system of things is destroyed along with everyone that knowingly turned there back on God Then people will be brought to perfection on paradise earth And the Dead that never got a chance to know the real God will be ressurected back to life to be given a chance to decide if they want to devote there life to God, meanwhile satan is locked away in the "abyss." Now after this 1000 years that man is given to once again be perfected and Satan is released and once again gets his chance to see if any will turn there back on God now that they are perfect like Jesus Christ. Then once and for all Satan and all that chose to follow him will be destoyed forever.

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## max2extreme

> I want to believe but I can't say that I do. What I find one of the most stupid things christains (any other religions) say is that the animal soul is mortal but the human soul is immortal. I think that's dumb.. if we have afterlife I believe monkeys and dogs and other mammals also have one. Are we not mammals? Did we not evolve from monkeys? What about the neanderdalsman? 
> 
> I remember a story I heard by some christain from the TV. He was telling that story to strenghten the believe in afterlife. 
> He said when some man who his wife knew died his dog began barking at the exact time of death. The dog ran around barking seemingly following something invisible which the narrator interpreted was the soul. 
> The conclusion is Man has soul because his dog can see it... but according to Christain believes the dog hasn't one (STILL he can see it according to that christains story).
> 
> 
> A dog would never see a soul if he hadn't one 'cause it wouln't mean anything to him. Evolutionary it wouldn't happen. Not that I believe dogs have immortal souls.. just pointing out another christian who preaches something which doesn't make sense even with his own believes. 
> 
> ...



Sorn,
I dont know about animal souls. I never read anything about it so I cant speak to it. Until I do, I have to believe that all animals go to heaven just because I think all animals are born without sin. I dont know.. Just a thought. but as far as you talking about christians in the first paragraph and saying "did we not evolve from monkeys...", no. christians do not believe we evolved from monkeys. So whatever is said about animals' souls ( i dont know, you have any verses about this?) wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that we are mammals and animals are mammals because we believe we were put here as 'humans', not the scientific teachings that we evolved from monkeys.

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## max2extreme

> My beliefs are a litle different from the mainstream Christianty.
> 
> 1 I beleive that people were never meant to die.
> death is only a result of sin Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
> "For the living know that they die; but the dead know not of any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
> This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, as the Bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish"(Psalm 146:3, 4)
> At death mans spirit, his life-force which is sustained by by breathing, "goes out." It no longer exists. So mans senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell, and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working. According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.
>  When they are dead, both humans and animals are in this same state of complete unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." ( Ecclesiates 3:19, 20) the "spirit" that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.


I dont think that is against mainstream christianity...well the first part. I dont believe man was supposed to die either. and not until adam ate the forbidden fruit did man begin to die. BUT, heh, since God is all knowing and all powerful, and has a plan, i guess he knew adam would eat the fruit, thus knowing his punishment, thus knowing man would die, thus....man was supposed to die. hehe. (thats just me thinking out loud.)

ps: what are you proving with your psalm quote??

-max

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## max2extreme

> For me it's simple... when you die, it's over... period.
> 
> There is no heaven, no salvation, no god nothing... you are put in a box and worms eat you. End of story.
> 
> I have a hard time understanding how people can believe in all those stories they call religion... believing in things written in a BOOK by MEN... boggles my mind... but hey... whatever rocks your boat is fine with me... just don't try to get me in your boat, and please don't "pray for me" or "feel sorry for me" for not sharing your beliefs.
> 
> Red


Christians believe that the bible is the word of god, written by men, yes. but men that were influenced by God, thus making it written by God himself. 

-max

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## Tock

> Christians believe that the bible is the word of god, written by men, yes. but men that were influenced by God, thus making it written by God himself. 
> 
> -max



Well, some Christians beleive that, mostly the ones who haven't spent lots of time studying the historicity of the primary souce documents and the history of the religion itself.
Ask the scholars and theologians of the Lutheran, United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Unitarian, and similar groups, and you'll hear a different tale . . . one of 4 versions of the Old Testament being combined into one around the time of the Maccabbees. Of changes made to the Hebrew faith around the 600 bc time period. Of a multitude of "authentic versions" of the scriptures up to 323 AD when they were voted on by a bunch of politicians, and that's how we got what we have today. And of the wildly different interpretations given to different passages over the centuries . . . oh ya, if the Inquisition could get their hands on these TV preachers, they'd burn 'em all for heresy. And everyone else along with 'em.

In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, anyway. You think the creator of the universe had a part of creating the Bible, but of course, you have no evidence to support that notion. I am just as certain that the Creator did not have anything to do with it, and I am without proof to support my opinion as well. 
So you can worry about dodging Hell, and I'll keep on living my life in peace, and keep paying the rent and eating those inch thick steaks until we drop, and then you'll see that I was right all along . . . lol . . .
-Tock

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## max2extreme

> Well, some Christians beleive that, mostly the ones who haven't spent lots of time studying the historicity of the primary souce documents and the history of the religion itself.
> Ask the scholars and theologians of the Lutheran, United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Unitarian, and similar groups, and you'll hear a different tale . . . one of 4 versions of the Old Testament being combined into one around the time of the Maccabbees. Of changes made to the Hebrew faith around the 600 bc time period. Of a multitude of "authentic versions" of the scriptures up to 323 AD when they were voted on by a bunch of politicians, and that's how we got what we have today. And of the wildly different interpretations given to different passages over the centuries . . . oh ya, if the Inquisition could get their hands on these TV preachers, they'd burn 'em all for heresy. And everyone else along with 'em.
> 
> In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, anyway. You think the creator of the universe had a part of creating the Bible, but of course, you have no evidence to support that notion. I am just as certain that the Creator did not have anything to do with it, and I am without proof to support my opinion as well. 
> So you can worry about dodging Hell, and I'll keep on living my life in peace, and keep paying the rent and eating those inch thick steaks until we drop, and then you'll see that I was right all along . . . lol . . .
> -Tock


Your first paragraph is just your opinion until you at least give me some kind of factual source that you got that from. I can say that I can ask scholars of all those groups too and find at least one that goes along with my views. If it cant be proven, its just some guys opinion. 

Your second paragraph I can prove with verses from the bible that support God wrote the bible and thats its not something that christians made up just because God is more of a reliable source than man... If you can wait a day or 2, ill get those verses on here. I just got back in town and need to get to bed. You work on getting some support for what you said. 

and i dont worry about dodging hell. I live in peace. I pay my rent. And i eat TONS of inch thick steaks. in case you were implying that christians dont do those things. heh

-max

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## Tock

> Your first paragraph is just your opinion until you at least give me some kind of factual source that you got that from. I can say that I can ask scholars of all those groups too and find at least one that goes along with my views. If it cant be proven, its just some guys opinion.


There's lots of fundamentalist stuff around, but for the scholarly stuff, ya gotta dig around the dusty halls of academia and be ready for lots of 50-cent words. Their stuff is around, ya just gotta look for it. 








> I can prove with verses from the bible that support God wrote the bible


So, you're gonna tell me, "See right here, this verse in the Bible PROVES that the Bible is God's Word."
Ya, right. 
I was born at night, but not last night. 

-Tock

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## Bryan2

> I dont think that is against mainstream christianity...well the first part. I dont believe man was supposed to die either. and not until adam ate the forbidden fruit did man begin to die. BUT, heh, since God is all knowing and all powerful, and has a plan, i guess he knew adam would eat the fruit, thus knowing his punishment, thus knowing man would die, thus....man was supposed to die. hehe. (thats just me thinking out loud.)
> 
> ps: what are you proving with your psalm quote??
> 
> -max


Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.

The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote

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## Badgerman

> Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.
> 
> The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote


Only God has free will......it is impossible for man to choose good without God
We receive all from God.........even our good works are from God's predestination ........ he gave us our ability to do good (the Spirit).......... he gave us the physical body in order to do this good......... he gave us a place (the earth) to do good........ he gave us the physical energy to do good......... and he gave us a time of evil so that there could be good.......for without evil there could never have been good because evil and good are comparative qualities. There are SO many verses that make it clear God controls man's destiny....... that talking about "free will" is ludicrous......

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## max2extreme

> Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.
> 
> The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote



Its complicated. And I dont quite understand. We had a sermon about a month ago at church (that I unfortunatly missed), about how we are 'pre-chosen' for heaven and hell. I think that is different than 'free-will'. We have the free will to do whatever. Make mistakes. Do good. Do bad. But I THINK the bottom line is that even though we have this free will to do these things, eventually God knows, or selected, or however it is (ill send an email to my pastor for clarification) that we will make the choice in the end and enter heaven, or we will make the choice and not become christians and go to hell.

-max

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## max2extreme

> There's lots of fundamentalist stuff around, but for the scholarly stuff, ya gotta dig around the dusty halls of academia and be ready for lots of 50-cent words. Their stuff is around, ya just gotta look for it. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you're gonna tell me, "See right here, this verse in the Bible PROVES that the Bible is God's Word."
> ...



No, Im not going to give you a verse that says 100% the bible is God's Word (I dont think...we'll see *smile*) but I will give you verses in the bible that support my opinion (and others') that the bible is God's word.

-max

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## sorn

> Sorn,
> I dont know about animal souls. I never read anything about it so I cant speak to it. Until I do, I have to believe that all animals go to heaven just because I think all animals are born without sin. I dont know.. Just a thought. but as far as you talking about christians in the first paragraph and saying "did we not evolve from monkeys...", no. christians do not believe we evolved from monkeys. So whatever is said about animals' souls ( i dont know, you have any verses about this?) wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that we are mammals and animals are mammals because we believe we were put here as 'humans', not the scientific teachings that we evolved from monkeys.


Actually Catholics accept the theory of evolution. But I don't think there's any reference to animals not having soul in the bible. I think it's just something some theologicans or philosophers invented.

IMO it doesn't make sense to say we have "soul" 'cause we have "free will" but not animals. I believe free will is something very vague to define. I could say my dog has free will to choose between two different foods.. and I wouldn't be wrong. "Free will" is different thing for different people.

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## Pale Horse

To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want , society and God will have a say in the outcome but it is our choice. How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way? Gimme a break.

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## AnabolicBoy1981

I hope not. If so, i'm going straight to hell for being such a slut.

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## sorn

No, even though they're choice isn't strictly done by free will, they still choose so to some extent.

But I ask you: Was my cat who killed rabbits (and ate only their brains!) born a killer?

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## MMC78

> To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want , society and God will have a say in the outcome but it is our choice. How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way? Gimme a break.


Study physics.

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## geoneo

Good question. I like the way everybody respects each others ideals. I dont think there is life after death, especially as a med student, and taking all those biology courses (spend 10 secs in childrens ward and you see what i mean). Its funny though alot of my christian friends say I am going to hell because I dont believe in jesus and so forth but then i think of all the volunteer work i do (because i like it) and that they dont do, then i think to myself god must be really crazy to send me to hell for helping others. I just think all religion was created to give man discipline and now its used as an instrument for wars. The only bad thing about believing what i believe is that if you go and kill or rape 100 peeps, in the end your going to end up the same as anybody else - worm food, religion was only created to prevent this stuff. I'm still in dismay how peeps can argue against evolution - but everybody has their beliefs. Just be good to one another and nothing to worry about ( for example pm me a source to ug canadian lab - and you'll get to the higher place you desire - lol)

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## Tock

> To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want


No way . . . 
If you wanted to start speaking fluent Urdu tomorrow morning, you can't just "decide" to do that; it takes lots of time and effort and exposure to the language. Or if you wanted to bench 600 lbs, again, it's gonna take lots of time, effort, and training to get there. 






> How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way?


No, rapists and murderers are not born that way, but they are born into dysfunctional family systems that enable them to do what they do. 

Essentially, the universe operates like the balls on a billiard table . . . you hit a ball with the cue ball, and where it goes depends on the angle and force it was struck, and the condition of the table's surface, and other factors. Everything works on an action/reaction basis. Every reaction has a cause, every cause has its reaction. No exception. 

Check out philosophical "Determinism." Makes lots of sense to me . . .
-Tock

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## decadbal

wow u guys are serous eh..lol

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## max2extreme

> No, rapists and murderers are not born that way, but they are born into dysfunctional family systems that enable them to do what they do. 
> 
> Essentially, the universe operates like the balls on a billiard table . . . you hit a ball with the cue ball, and where it goes depends on the angle and force it was struck, and the condition of the table's surface, and other factors. Everything works on an action/reaction basis. Every reaction has a cause, every cause has its reaction. No exception. 
> 
> Check out philosophical "Determinism." Makes lots of sense to me . . .
> -Tock


So Tock, Are you saying that rapists and murders all come from dysfunctional family systems, or that all people from dysfunctional family systems grow up to be murderers and rapists?? hmm.

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## max2extreme

> Good question. I like the way everybody respects each others ideals. I dont think there is life after death, especially as a med student, and taking all those biology courses (spend 10 secs in childrens ward and you see what i mean). Its funny though alot of my christian friends say I am going to hell because I dont believe in jesus and so forth but then i think of all the volunteer work i do (because i like it) and that they dont do, then i think to myself god must be really crazy to send me to hell for helping others. I just think all religion was created to give man discipline and now its used as an instrument for wars. The only bad thing about believing what i believe is that if you go and kill or rape 100 peeps, in the end your going to end up the same as anybody else - worm food, religion was only created to prevent this stuff. I'm still in dismay how peeps can argue against evolution - but everybody has their beliefs. Just be good to one another and nothing to worry about ( for example pm me a source to ug canadian lab - and you'll get to the higher place you desire - lol)


Hi Geoneo...Can you tell me/us why your biology classes make you think there is no life after death? What does biology say about that subject? (not meant to be a rhetorical question.) Your beliefs go along with a lot of people's; myself included in the past. Im happy I looked at the bible with an open mind, took it in, prayed about it, and came to the conclusions I have today. I dont want to beat a dead horse but you cant get to heaven on your own actions. Theres some earlier posts on this thread about it. Your christian friends are right. I had a christian friend tell me that I was going to hell and I was like you. I was mad, kinda insulted, but now I know and he was right. Question for ya. You are in dismay about how peeps can argue against evolution. Im in dismay about how peeps can argue religion. There are TONS of scientific studies and discoveries that prove things in the bible. How can people argue that?? There are scientifically proven facts in the bible that different people PREDICTED future events. If you believe that all religion was created to control people, Im assuming you mean man created it and not God, what do you say about multiple people being able to see into the future and all of them part of this 'secret bible creation group'?

max

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## Pale Horse

Tock , the 600lb bench thing was a stretch! Now I was raised in an alcoholic dysfunctional home, my parents divorced when I was 8 my stepfather was physically and emotionally abusive, even remember some inappropriate touching if you will. When I was 16 I got big enough to kick his ass and then he was gone. Now I was an angry person. Yet I still excelled in three sports was a B avg. student, got scholarship offers to colleges. On and on I could go about the good things in my life. I made choices all along the way, some set me back some moved me forward but they were all MY choices.

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## Badgerman

> Tock , the 600lb bench thing was a stretch! Now I was raised in an alcoholic dysfunctional home, my parents divorced when I was 8 my stepfather was physically and emotionally abusive, even remember some inappropriate touching if you will. When I was 16 I got big enough to kick his ass and then he was gone. Now I was an angry person. Yet I still excelled in three sports was a B avg. student, got scholarship offers to colleges. On and on I could go about the good things in my life. I made choices all along the way, some set me back some moved me forward but they were all MY choices.


I disagree....God ordered your every step......and I say that in a good way.

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## Pale Horse

Badger, I agree with the path of my life but tell me in your opinion how does that explain evil people?

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## Badgerman

> Badger, I agree with the path of my life but tell me in your opinion how does that explain evil people?


Isaiah 45:7
"forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil; I, the Lord [YHWH], do all these things" (Isa 45:7)

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## Pale Horse

What purpose does evil serve?

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## Badgerman

> What purpose does evil serve?


To know good.....that's all I can figure.

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## max2extreme

Badger, 1victor,

Badger, I think what 1victor is tryin to get across is that hes had many bad things happen to him and hes not a rapist or a murderer (going back to tock's belief that rapists and murderers come from dysfunctional families and thats how they are taught these ways, instead of each person having 'free will' to rape or murder or not to rape or murder). 1victor, correct? I think ive confused myself...hopefully not you.

max

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## Pale Horse

Badger, that is a complete 180 from the New Testament. Both books carry weight but as a Christian the New Testament obviously is what focus my faith around.

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## Pale Horse

Max, yes that was exactly my point.

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## Bryan2

Can someone refer me to a scripture that states all people go to heaven?

Other than the 144,000

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## Bryan2

Assuming that the bible does say people go to hell does the bible reference anything whatsoever as to it being eternal fiery torment?


The only place that the bible talks about people going to what many beleive is hell is the reference of the lake of fire.

But then again it states that hades which is refered to hell and death itself are also thrown into the lake of fire.

Can anyone give their view points on these things for me.

If anyone has questions refer to my posts on earlier pages.

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## Badgerman

"Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Every thing that may abide the fire, you shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abides not the fire you shall make go through the water" (Num 31:22-23). Notice that these two verses were an "ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses" (Num 31:21). As you are seeing all the apparently non-important ceremonies are representative of higher meanings. The basic patterns of these ceremonies are of a great significance in finding out God's plan.

Notice that anything that can abide in fire shall be made to go through this fire to be cleansed. Now flesh and blood can't abide in fire, for it burns up. But spirit can abide in fire, for spirit can't die (Luke 20:36). Further, the Bible makes comparisons between spiritual things and the metals described in Num 31:22. For example, see the symbolic image of Satan's spiritual kingdoms in Dan 2:31-40. The metals described in Num 31:22 are used to describe the make-up of the image in Dan 2:31-40. During the 1000 years this fire baptism will purify the satanic spirits of their spiritual impurity. This is their judgement.

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## Bryan2

What purpose does evil serve?

The answer itself is free will God also gave all angels free will including satan which is the founder of evil when people ask why does God allow such bad things to happen he is proving that he is a loving god to all of his creations including that of which have turned out the worst by giving satan his chance for free will during his reign of the earths system of things which is in its final days itself.

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## max2extreme

Evil exists because of man's first sin. Evil was a choice. Again proves that man has free will.

max

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## Pale Horse

All excellent points. Thanks guys

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## MMC78

Why do people care if there is an afterlife?

If you simply die and cease to exist, it can't be any worse than before you were born.

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## geoneo

Hello max,
you make some interesting points, i can tell you are a reborn christian - and i am happy for you because it gives you peace. But all religions have scientific prove, during med school i remeber my muslim friends brag to me how their holy book was correct about alot of things to do with embryology.
Even my religion wich is the Sikh faith is by fact the most scientifically proven - i bet you didn't know that, i didn't either till my profs told the class. But just because every religion has some scientifically proven facts (embrology, their are infinite amount of planets ect...) they also have many scientifically proven mistakes ( the earth is the center of the universe ect). So since every religion including mine and yours have scientific proven mistakes this can not be the work of god - unless we believe god to be fallable. We have so much prove about evolution with actuall discoveries (homo hominis ect) Even at one time in mans history their was two species of man homo sapiens and H. neanderthalensis, but the H. neanderthalensis all died out we have prove of their existence with bone records. If you are to believe that evolution is farce, then you have to believe that their is some big conspiracy going on, and they are able to plant bones within miles of solid rock and leave no mark ect. Just read up on evolution and tell me what you really think about actuall scientific prove.
Also max even I can tell into the future I can make 1000s of predictions, and at least 10 will be correct, and if peeps forget about the wrong ones, then I will probably be famous - but after I am dead lol.
I only believe their is no life after death because of my own experiences and what i read in under grad about evolution and so forth, wich led me to blieve that religion is created by man, and thus its philosophy about life after dead was also just created by man to make us do good things so we can get to the higher place.
I also dont think that god wouldn't want us to keep worshipping him if he created us, just like i dont ask my children to worship me - that would just be selfish - if god can see all then he can see if some one helps out thier fellow man is a better person then someone who just prays but doesn't help out anyone.
Everybody should just live in peace, be happy and workout with or without gear -lol
Max i am happy for you that you find peace in your beliefs.
happy lifting all
Geoneo

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## muff-chaser

well i know that i believe in God, and i know that Jesus died for our sins. i think to get to heaven you have to know Jesus. i do beleive in life after death. i think a person goes to heaven or hell and i know that it last for eternity. for all of the people on here who are non believers or unsure about Jesus i think it would be wise to try to develope a persoaal relationship with Him.

i dont think that you have to go to church all the time to go to heaven, but in my personal instance it seems to make my life better when i go. JESUS IS REAL HEAVEN AND HELL ARE REAL AND ONE DAY JESUS WILL COME BACK-4 REAL

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## max2extreme

What a way to end a thread..  :Smilie:  In the name of the Lord. hehe

amen

max

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## FCECC2

> What a way to end a thread..  In the name of the Lord. hehe
> 
> amen
> 
> max


and just to kill it, heres my input: birth, life, death, done.

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## BigMike J

I dunno but here are some good pics.

http://www.ghostresearch.org/ghostpics/

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## Z-Ro

Yup I believe in God. In my opinion, Evil is the absence of Good. If good leaves, then what can fill it, Evil. So thats my opinion when people ask if God created all, then how is there such Evil. God didn't create it...its just a absence of Good. Lucifer just fills in the spaces. Evil lurks without a doubt, sometimes I even notice it. But I'm not always "holy" enough if you will to catch it, but sometimes I notice Evil coming from someone, you may think I'm weird, then so be it. If you start trying to catch it, you may be surprised. But like I said, it doesn't happen all the time, its kind of one of those situations where for some odd reason, the though comes into my head and I notice it.

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## workdude

when your dead your dead. Thats it.

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## bulldawg_28

This is an interesting story. Awhile back my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer. She then really began to wonder whether she'd survive or not. Well in a dream she saw a man dressed in a robe. He had a beard and long dark hair, and in his hands he held a book. He told her that if the book had marks on it, then she wouldn't survive. But if the book wasn't marked then she would survive. Well the book wasn't marked, and she then lived another 8 years.

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## max2extreme

Thats interresting. And she believes it was an angel im assuming? Was she a christian before or did that make her believe by chance? 

-max

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## Badgerman

> Yup I believe in God. In my opinion, Evil is the absence of Good. If good leaves, then what can fill it, Evil. So thats my opinion when people ask if God created all, then how is there such Evil. God didn't create it...its just a absence of Good. Lucifer just fills in the spaces. Evil lurks without a doubt, sometimes I even notice it. But I'm not always "holy" enough if you will to catch it, but sometimes I notice Evil coming from someone, you may think I'm weird, then so be it. If you start trying to catch it, you may be surprised. But like I said, it doesn't happen all the time, its kind of one of those situations where for some odd reason, the though comes into my head and I notice it.


Evil=opposite of good......God creates everything

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## bulldawg_28

> Thats interresting. And she believes it was an angel im assuming? Was she a christian before or did that make her believe by chance? 
> 
> -max


She believed that he was Jesus. From what I was told she had been a christian her whole life.

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## punk_bbuilder

I hope so

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## Kärnfysikern

> I've seen ghosts twice in my life as clear as day........I have also experienced a few other extreme events in my life that has made me conclude within my own heart that yes there is a god.
> 
> 
> Interesting.....
> 
> Revelation 14:10 says, " . . . and he shall be tormented with fire and BRIMSTONE . . ." And Job 18 describes the " . . . PLACE of him that knoweth not God" (vs 21), in verse 15 as, " . . . BRIMSTONE shall be scattered upon his habitation." Do you know what brimstone is? It's sulfur. And do you know where sulfur or brimstone is found? INSIDE THIS EARTH! According to the book Volcanoes by Pierre Kohler (p. 43), when Mt. St Helens erupted in 1980  150,000 tons of sulfurous gas was ejected! Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written over 3,000 years ago, and yet Job knew what science wouldn't know for years  inside this earth is BRIMSTONE! 
> 
> Nature magazine recently discovered (July 2002) what the Bible knew over 3,000 years ago. Inside this earth is "fire and brimstone": 
> 
> ...


Umh did the thought ever ocur to you that maby just maby there where volcanos before the bible was written  :Don't know:  and maby they called the **** that flew out of volcanos for brimstone and maby just maby did they assume the stuff that flew out of the volcano was from the inner earth  :LOL:

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## Kärnfysikern

> Without purpose life has no meaning. To all that do not believe I would ask what is your puropse in life? What drives you? What consumes you and keeps you moving forward. It could be a good thing like love etc.. or it could be anger or hate..etc..
> 
> I ask all of you what is YOUR purpose in life. Please no shallow funny answers, I am genuinely interested in your responses.


Why does life has to have a purpose? IMO we are just animals that have gotten a bit to inteligent. Do a dog contemplate what the purpose of his life is?  :Don't know:  
Why should we contemplate it? 

We are to smart for our own good and to stupid to get the whole picture  :LOL:

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## Kärnfysikern

BTW my oppinion on what the purpose of life(not only mine but every human beeing) is gaining knoweledge. Learning everything that can be learned. I belive in a god, but not the christian god and I belive that for every new discovery we make about our world, every new law of physics, every new scientific discovery we come one step closer to understanding gods plan, one step closer to understanding his designe and if we as a race by some miracle survive and continue to evolve(by nature and with gene therapy and every other way we can enhance the mind and body) then one day in the DISTANT(millions of year in the future, maby billions) future we will know it all and we will be the new gods.

I belive in life after death, I have heard to much stuff about ghosts from people I trust to belive otherwise and I have been through some **** myself that makes me almost 100% certain ghots exists and in that case there must be a afterlife.

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## Kärnfysikern

> What purpose does evil serve?
> 
> The answer itself is free will God also gave all angels free will including satan which is the founder of evil when people ask why does God allow such bad things to happen he is proving that he is a loving god to all of his creations including that of which have turned out the worst by giving satan his chance for free will during his reign of the earths system of things which is in its final days itself.


if god is so loving, kind and caring. Why did lucifer revolt against him? 

How could lucifer choose the path of evil when evil didnt even exist before him? How can a creation from a perfect god even consider anything evil? If god is perfect then so should we his creations be.

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## max2extreme

> Why does life has to have a purpose? IMO we are just animals that have gotten a bit to inteligent. Do a dog contemplate what the purpose of his life is?  
> Why should we contemplate it? 
> 
> We are to smart for our own good and to stupid to get the whole picture :lol


In this post you say "why does life have to have a purpose" then in your next post you say "IMO lifes purpose is to gain knowledge". So do you believe there is a purpose or not? So, you think there is a god but not the christian god. Im assuming you believe 'your god' created you? If so, i assume you believe your god created you to gain knowledge?? is that right?

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## Kärnfysikern

just because I feel there is a purpose I dont belive a person HAVE to feel there is a grand purpose to life. A simple thing like just wanting to live a happy life is enough purpose to live and it should not be looked down upon by anone.

I dont think god created me to gain knoweledge. I think it just created the universe for reason we just cant comprehend and I dont think it has any influence on our lives now. I dont think god created me, Im just a random thing that occured in its grand creation. Think about it. Think about how utterly insanely big the universe is. Isnt it kind of folish to think that only the select few of mankind that is christian is allowed to come into heaven.

I mean the universe is so **** big, so **** huge, that there HAS to be life on millions of other planets. Are they not allowed into heaven just because they are not humans and not christians? Out of every life form out there why should christian humans be the ones that have gained gods grace?  :Don't know: 

If the god of my imagination exists I think he is so utterly ahead of humans mentaly that we cant even begin to comprehend what his plan is. Just like a ant cant begin to comprehend what we humans think. 
If he created everything then he must exist outside of time and space and that is a fact that is impossible to grasp cause we cant even imagine something like that.

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## max2extreme

I personally dont think its foolish. Of course looking at my point of view, you have to remember I believe the bible is God's word. I see it as God created the universe for Humans, as is said in the bible. Of course there wasnt 'christians' for thousands of years later. After God sent Jesus to the world, who was prophesized, only thru him did we get to heaven. We cant really say for sure about your "...universe is so **** big, ...." paragraph. Most assume there has to be life on one of the millions of other planets becaust of statistics, or "whats the chances that there isnt life on another planet"...Most assume slim. But it could be that there is NO other life form out there. Couldnt it? It could be that the limits of the universe are set and there is a point of where we cant tell anything further (distance wise) and we just dont know the difference in that it is the boundary of the universe vs. we dont have the technology. Possible. Do I know for sure...no. But it doesnt mention anything in the bible about little green men..  :Smilie:  I agree with you saying "...we cant even begin to comprehend what his plan is..." and half about your "ant" analogy. but, what if we could turn ourselves into an ant. We could speak the ant language (if there is one). Lets say that ants had religions in their ant life.. heh. We turn ourself into an ant, tell them about god, give them an 'ant bible'....blah blah... Then they can comprehend. Just as Jesus came to us. also add to that, we are able to talk ant language in our present human form. we could stand next to an ant, he wouldnt be able to see us because we are so big or whatever. we tell that ant, I am God. blah blah. Hes gonna go tell his ant friends about it and thus, we have a religion. That was a long babble..sorry. but i agree, we cant even imagine his works, plans, or anything that happens, all we have his is teaching in the bible. That we can understand.

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## max2extreme

> if god is so loving, kind and caring. Why did lucifer revolt against him? 
> 
> How could lucifer choose the path of evil when evil didnt even exist before him? How can a creation from a perfect god even consider anything evil? If god is perfect then so should we his creations be.


Lucifer wasnt satisfied with God's kindness and Lucifer was greedy. He wanted to be the greatest ABOVE god. And he thought he could, thus he revolted. This is the way I believe and see it. There may be bible quotes, but I dont know. but, God is perfect good. He created everything, besides humans, angels, etc. When he created everything, even the angels, he gave them free will. God set down what is right and wrong, basically rules. He could have said "stealing is good." but no, he said "stealing is bad". So you have rules, you have free will. Thus you have right and wrong, good and evil. 

How do we know that the perfect god wanted to make perfectly "good" creations (good as far as good vs evil). Actually we know this isnt what he wanted because of our free will.

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## Juggernaut

I believe this is the only life I'll ever have. If there was reincarnation how would you know you've ever been here before?

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## co2boi

I believe there is an energy in all of us (a soul ??) that belongs to a whole energy. The energy that makes the universe, nature, animals, trees, earth, etc... and that when we die the energy becomes a part of something else. Kind of like reincarnation, but on a more metaphysical level. The source or the center of the energy being "God" or some "Greatest Concievable Being".

There is no way that I am aware to destroy energy, it always exist in some form. The human body contains a lot of energy...

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## Kärnfysikern

> I personally dont think its foolish. Of course looking at my point of view, you have to remember I believe the bible is God's word. I see it as God created the universe for Humans, as is said in the bible. Of course there wasnt 'christians' for thousands of years later. After God sent Jesus to the world, who was prophesized, only thru him did we get to heaven. We cant really say for sure about your "...universe is so **** big, ...." paragraph. Most assume there has to be life on one of the millions of other planets becaust of statistics, or "whats the chances that there isnt life on another planet"...Most assume slim. But it could be that there is NO other life form out there. Couldnt it? It could be that the limits of the universe are set and there is a point of where we cant tell anything further (distance wise) and we just dont know the difference in that it is the boundary of the universe vs. we dont have the technology. Possible. Do I know for sure...no. But it doesnt mention anything in the bible about little green men..  I agree with you saying "...we cant even begin to comprehend what his plan is..." and half about your "ant" analogy. but, what if we could turn ourselves into an ant. We could speak the ant language (if there is one). Lets say that ants had religions in their ant life.. heh. We turn ourself into an ant, tell them about god, give them an 'ant bible'....blah blah... Then they can comprehend. Just as Jesus came to us. also add to that, we are able to talk ant language in our present human form. we could stand next to an ant, he wouldnt be able to see us because we are so big or whatever. we tell that ant, I am God. blah blah. Hes gonna go tell his ant friends about it and thus, we have a religion. That was a long babble..sorry. but i agree, we cant even imagine his works, plans, or anything that happens, all we have his is teaching in the bible. That we can understand.


Ok lets assume earth is the only place where there is life in the universe. Now why would god create a absoutely gigantic universe and then only make life appear on earth? That is a gigantic waste of space considering the sheer scale of the universe. I mean there are more stars in the universe then there are grains of sand on all of earths beaches put togheter and a decent % of those stars have planets...If you are getting a pet you dont buy it a whole country to roam in.

How would your views change if we found life(or traces of life) on mars or in the oceans of europa(one of jupiters moons not the continent lol)?? The 2 most likely places for life in our solar system besides earth.

your view of the ant explenation was pretty good though. That sounds pretty reasonable.

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## max2extreme

as for the giant universe and waste of space, its not like it is hard or takes time for god to create it.  :Smilie:  quicker than you can say quick, hes got a gazillion other universes bigger than ours. true, if i got a pet, i wouldnt buy a whole country to roam in, but if i could buy a pet and with the snap of a finger i could give him a world to do whatever he wanted, and i always knew where he was and i was always able to instantly go to him, i sure would. Finding life on other planents...it would depend I guess. a plant is a life form, if we found a plant on another planet, wouldnt change me at all. If a smart being was found that could communicate and grow, I would teach him the bible.  :Smilie:  I dont know how id feel.

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## Bryan2

I think that there may be life on other planets but if you belive in the Bibles teachings then Satan has corrupted us and we are imperfect Satans reaches are only on Earth so other beings would be perfect.

I believe God tells other beings to stay away from us until we are once again perfect and everything gets in order.

Were kinda like the inbred alabama dwellers of the universe.

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## Kärnfysikern

I hope that the day that we find extra terestial life will come soon. Just to se how it will effect things. I think even finding a miniscule bacteria would be HUGE. Cause it would mean life is not something rare and that its very likely to be life everywhere where it has the oppertunity.

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## Z-Ro

> Evil=opposite of good......God creates everything


I said Evil is the absence of good, so Evil fills in the void that good leaves.

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## GREENMACHINE

I don't beleive in any of it.

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## Tock

> I said Evil is the absence of good, so Evil fills in the void that good leaves.




Well, if Evil is the absence of Good, what is Good? The absence of Evil?

That still doesn't explain anything . . .

-Tock

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## Joey2ness

> do you guys beleive that there is life after death???
> 
> i beleive in god but seems like the older you get, you ask these questions on and on and no proof or answer to all of this.


I remember the following from watching some show on t.v about god and the guy talking was a priest or something. some of this might not be entirely accurate but heres how i remember it

After we die. Whether we were good or bad we all end up in the same place regardless (that includes Anti-Christ men like Hitler ,Napoleon and beings alike) and that place is neither heaven or hell. Its a place of total darkness with no existence and there will be a waiting period before we re-incarnate back to earth to be reborn again.

For some reason but i dont know why. Some of us will be born normal, some less fortunate then others will be born with disabilities, they will be blind, deaf,or parylyzed(missing a body part) or with an in-curable disease ......ETC 

this could be because of something they did in their past life or something they're supposed to do in this life with their disability to set an example for others

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## magicksun

I believe in reincarnation. 

And to me there's no hell or heaven, people who act badly will have a bad fate in their live people who act good will not.

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## LuvMuhRoids

no....

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## craneboy

only the dead know. i have hope that there's a god but no proof

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## Tock

There might or might not be an afterlife, but lots of unscrupulous people make a very good living from other folk's fear of it. 
Pretty lucrative scam . . .
-Tock

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## urbanite

> do you guys beleive that there is life after death???
> 
> i beleive in god but seems like the older you get you ask these questions on and on and no proof or answer to all of this.


damn this is one of my favorite subjects, although i wouldn't expect to find it in this type of forum!

my humble opinion goes something like this: i have no idea whether there is life after death, and i don't believe there is a human being alive today that knows that answer either. one thing I believe with the upmost certainty: religion is an aging vice that has served its purpose well throughout the years, and will soon be ready to retire. i believe as a species we will continue to evolve and one day will outgrow the necessity of practicing religious teachings, as we will be lead by our government's laws and common sense of logic and morality. we will continue to get closer to finding the answer to some of our oldest questions, like "how were we created, as a species among millions of other species on this rock in outerspace?" we will answer these questions with the coming of future technology and intelligently applied science -- thus undermining some value of religion, as a part of its value comes from providing "answers" to these types of questions. we will have laws that protect us and are in favor of the majority (some would argue we have that today, but i am also speaking of other countries that still don't have this) -- this will also undermine some value of religion, as I believe part of its purpose was to govern the masses (we [modern day europe] didn't have laws [especially ones that addressed morality] 2000 years ago obviously). 

so, if we are talking about religion, it is not hard to take an opposition and argue until the sun comes up. if we are talking about "the afterlife", then it is fair game for everyone. i don't believe we will ever know the answer to that -- at least, while we are alive.  :Smilie:

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## urbanite

> There might or might not be an afterlife, but lots of unscrupulous people make a very good living from other folk's fear of it. 
> Pretty lucrative scam . . .
> -Tock


that about sums it up! lol

a simple answer, but absolutely true. really, the answer should never be any more complex than that "there might or might not be..."

 :Smilie:

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## PrimoPup

Well my sister went to this lady who talks to the dead, and let me tell you she was so accurate on everything it scared the hell out of me. She said she was talking to my deceased mother, and that she was cradling someone in her arms , a J....a ....Jo no a Joey, but she could not see him, the psychic i mean, she asked my sister is he deceased, i can not see him, my sister then told her that he is not even born yet and that my wife is 5 months pregnant. Then she told my sister that your mother is shaking her head and smiling with joy, she said to tell you that she rocks him to sleep every night and that he never leaves her arms, then she said your mother is telling you to tell a B.. a Bi.. a Biffy that she loves him very much, and everything is Ok.....that her and buddy are the happiest they ever been, THAT'S my Nick name "Biffy" and Buddy was my fathers nickname that maybe a handful of people knew? Spooked the F--k out of me a felt like killing her for telling me all that sh_t. BTW my son arrived healthy as can be....

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## PrimoPup

Seeing as the Catholic church is the wealthiest entity in the world do not hold your breath on religion ever leaving.




> damn this is one of my favorite subjects, although i wouldn't expect to find it in this type of forum!
> 
> my humble opinion goes something like this: i have no idea whether there is life after death, and i don't believe there is a human being alive today that knows that answer either. one thing I believe with the upmost certainty: religion is an aging vice that has served its purpose well throughout the years, and will soon be ready to retire. i believe as a species we will continue to evolve and one day will outgrow the necessity of practicing religious teachings, as we will be lead by our government's laws and common sense of logic and morality. we will continue to get closer to finding the answer to some of our oldest questions, like "how were we created, as a species among millions of other species on this rock in outerspace?" we will answer these questions with the coming of future technology and intelligently applied science -- thus undermining some value of religion, as a part of its value comes from providing "answers" to these types of questions. we will have laws that protect us and are in favor of the majority (some would argue we have that today, but i am also speaking of other countries that still don't have this) -- this will also undermine some value of religion, as I believe part of its purpose was to govern the masses (we [modern day europe] didn't have laws [especially ones that addressed morality] 2000 years ago obviously). 
> 
> so, if we are talking about religion, it is not hard to take an opposition and argue until the sun comes up. if we are talking about "the afterlife", then it is fair game for everyone. i don't believe we will ever know the answer to that -- at least, while we are alive.

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## ScreaM

My fathers Catholic, and my mom Christian. I have alot of German/Irish in my blood, so it makes me think sometimes...which ones right. But, then I think of these bible beaters you see, trying to be perfect in every way, not really living life, so to speak, and I think to my self, you know if you give a valent effort to being a good person... and you guys know what im talking about, there will be a spot for us with god.

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## Kärnfysikern

> i think after you die you reincarnate and become human again (baby)
> i dont think there is a heaven or hell after life
> but two things are for sure


I used to think like this and then I realised that there is one heck of alot more people now then 10 years ago. So I had to realise that if we get reincarnated then it cant be spiecies specific. Not that I mind I would love to be a animal in my next life.  :7up:  Or a alien on a distant planet with amazing technology

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## max2extreme

for those that believe in reincarnation, why do you believe this? where did you get the idea? or is it something that you believe for no reason and just put your faith in it?

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## Kärnfysikern

> for those that believe in reincarnation, why do you believe this? where did you get the idea? or is it something that you believe for no reason and just put your faith in it?



I used to think reincarnation was possible because of all the people that has memories of previous lifes ect. I never belived in it to 100%. But if I had to choose anything after death it would be another life.

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## max2extreme

so there are a lot of people who say they have memories of past lives and so that is why you believed to some extent in reincarnation? im very reluctant to believe people when they say they can talk to ghosts, they have past lives, they can heal you with their touch, etc...

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## Tock

The only re-incarnation there is, IMHO, is the recycling of our body's molecules into the environment where they end up getting absorbed by bacteria and bugs and plants and etc, which in turn get eaten by bigger animals like cattle, which then end up as hamburgers, and from there as part of someone's 5500 calorie a day bulking cycle . . .

JMHO, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence of anything else. 
For centuries, people have talked about "souls," but danged if anyone can give a definition of such things, much less demonstrate that they even exist . . .

-Tock

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## max2extreme

it is hard tock because the soul is invisible. we have consciousness and our body...agreed? Check out this illustration: I had a student a few years ago whos sister had a terrible accident on her honeymoon. She was knocked unconscious and lost all of her memories and a good bit of her personality. She did not believe she had been married. As she began to revocer, they showed her videos of the wedding to convince her she had actually married her husband. She eventually got to the point where she believed it and she got remarried to him.
now we all knew this was the same person all along. This was Jamie's sister. She was not a different person, but she had totally different memories. She had lost her old memories. what that proves is you can be the same person even if you lose old memories and gain new ones, or you lose some of your old personality traits and gain new ones. Now if i were just my consciousness, when my consciousness was different, id be a different person. but we know that i can be the same person even though my consciousness changes so i cant be the same thing as my consciousness. ive got to be the 'self,' or soul, that contains my consciousness. 

same with body. i cant be the same thing as my body or brain. our brain and body can be divided and we still are the same person. we arent 85% the person. we are the person with 85% of our body.

a little girl asked once "if i could see God it would help me believe in him." well the problem isnt that youve never seen god. the problem is that youve never seen your mother. and her mother was sitting next to her. of course the girl didnt understand. she asked what i meant. "suppose without hurting your mom, we were able to take her apart cell by cell and peek inside each one of them. we would never come to a moment where we would say, "look heres what mommy's thinking about doing the rest of the day.' or "hey this cell contains mommys feelings.' or "so this is what mom believes about pro football." we couldnt find your mom's thoughts, beliefs, desires, or her feelings. "guess what else we would never find. wed never find mom's ego or her self. we would never say "finally in this particular brain cell, there's mommy. theres her ego or self. thtas because mom is a person and persons are invisible. mommy's ego and her conscious life are invisible. now shes small enough to have a body, while god is too big to have a body.

the point is. i AM a soul. i HAVE a body. we dont learn about people by studying thir bodies. we learn about people by finding out how they fel, what they think, what theyre passionate about, what their worldview is, and so forth. starting at their body might tell us whether they like exercise, but thats not very helpful. we need to get "inside" them. 

so conclusion, theres more to me than my conscious life and my body. in fact, i am a 'self' or an "i", that connot be seen or touched unless i manifest myself through my behavior or my talk. i have free will because im a 'self' or a soul and im not just a brain.

(most of this from J. P. Moreland)

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## Kärnfysikern

> so there are a lot of people who say they have memories of past lives and so that is why you believed to some extent in reincarnation? im very reluctant to believe people when they say they can talk to ghosts, they have past lives, they can heal you with their touch, etc...


Since I have experienced some things related with ghost myself and so has several that I know and trust fully I dont doubt there is ghosts.

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## Tock

> it is hard tock because the soul is invisible.


How do you know there is such a thing as an "invisible soul?"
Can you detect it with any of the 5 senses? Can you detect it with a machine? 

IMHO, if you can't see, smell, taste, hear, or touch something, with or without machine assistance, well, it probably doesn't exist.
Some people say humans have souls, but animals don't, while other people say that all mammals have souls, and still others say that every replicating organism, including the lowly virus, have souls. Those people all have the same corroborating evidence--none--as the folks who would claim that people have 3 souls each, or 10 souls each, or that every soul gets recycled over and over again in successive lives. 











> we have consciousness and our body...agreed?


This statement just goes to show that no one is wrong 100% of the time . . . even a blind pig occasionally finds an acorn . . .  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  













> Check out this illustration: I had a student a few years ago whos sister had a terrible accident on her honeymoon. She was knocked unconscious and lost all of her memories and a good bit of her personality. She did not believe she had been married. As she began to revocer, they showed her videos of the wedding to convince her she had actually married her husband. She eventually got to the point where she believed it and she got remarried to him.
> now we all knew this was the same person all along. This was Jamie's sister. She was not a different person, but she had totally different memories. She had lost her old memories.
> 
> _what that proves is you can be the same person even if you lose old memories and gain new ones, or you lose some of your old personality traits and gain new ones._


Ya, but it doesn't prove that things that you can't detect actually exist. 













> Now if i were just my consciousness, when my consciousness was different, id be a different person.


No no no no no . . . 
What human beings are, we're extraordinarily complex bundles of bio-chemical activity, completely at the mercy of the laws of physics. Our consciousness is the effect of complex electro-chemical activity, and it's simple to demonstrate that our consciousness is hostage to the laws of physics by applying direct force or chemicals to our body organs and evaluating the response. Ya, take a hit of L S D and see what happens. Or suffer physical trauma, damage some brain cells, and parts of your memory will be affected depending purely on the severity of the force and what parts of the nervous system were affected. It's possible to remove particular memories with lobotomies. Degenerative diseases of the brain cause similar memory loss. 
IMHO, there is nothing more to consciousness than what occurs naturally with body tissues, chemistry, and our environment. If you can demonstrate that there is more, by all means, do so.














> but we know that i can be the same person even though my consciousness changes so i cant be the same thing as my consciousness. ive got to be the 'self,' or soul, that contains my consciousness.


Nonsense.
You are the same physical person after an accident, just a bit damaged, and have damaged memories in proportion to your damaged nervous system. Such a cause-and-effect doesn't 'have' to mean that you have a "self" or "soul" that contains your consciousness.
If your consciousness was contained in an immaterial "soul," then you could take a dose of "physical" caffeine, alcohol, or other physical drug, and it would have no effect on your consciousness. It's much more reasonable to conclude that it's the physical drugs and physical trauma and physical environment and other physical things that affect our consciousness, instead of beleiving that things that nobody has ever seen or measured affect our consciousness.

But then, I'm a reasonable person . . .  :7up:  











> same with body. i cant be the same thing as my body or brain. our brain and body can be divided and we still are the same person. we arent 85% the person. we are the person with 85% of our body.


Our brains are part of our body. 
Disagree?












> a little girl asked once "if i could see God it would help me believe in him."


Really? Who? Or is this just some fictional story someone wrote for the sake of illustrating a sermon?














> "suppose without hurting your mom, we were able to take her apart cell by cell and peek inside each one of them. we would never come to a moment where we would say, "look heres what mommy's thinking about doing the rest of the day.' or "hey this cell contains mommys feelings.' or "so this is what mom believes about pro football." we couldnt find your mom's thoughts, beliefs, desires, or her feelings. "guess what else we would never find. wed never find mom's ego or her self. we would never say "finally in this particular brain cell, there's mommy. theres her ego or self.


That's sort of like saying if you dissected every American, you'd never discover what the USA is all about. That's because America is more the net effect of all the people in the country interacting together in the real estate between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, than the simple analysis of each individual part. 
In your supposition, you make the similar error in thinking that a consciousness is the mere total of its biological components, without considering the additional effect that its individual components generate when interacting with each other. 

So.











> thtas because mom is a person and persons are invisible. mommy's ego and her conscious life are invisible. now shes small enough to have a body, while god is too big to have a body.


Nonsense. 












> the point is. i AM a soul. i HAVE a body. we dont learn about people by studying thir bodies. we learn about people by finding out how they fel, what they think, what theyre passionate about, what their worldview is, and so forth. starting at their body might tell us whether they like exercise, but thats not very helpful. we need to get "inside" them.


Nonsense. 
You consist only of molecules which interact with each other to form extraordinarily complex bio-chemical and bio-electrical interactions which produce various effects such as body warmth, body wastes, sensitivity to various forms of radiation (wavelengths of visible light), biological urges (to pee when your bladder is full, to breathe, to have sex, to eat when hungry, etc) . . . 
"Feelings" and emotions and opinions and beleifs are the result of you, the complex bio-chemical "machine," interacting with your environment, forming memories from experiences, learning from multiple experiences, forming conclusions from multiple learning situations, and applying those conclusions to new situations, and your body's nervous system reacting in those new situations to what it expects to be its own best interests. 
That's pretty much an oversimplification, but all in all, there isn't much more to our existance than that, which should be a tremendous comfort to you because it shows that all that we humans are is a bunch of molecules, and that there is no reason to presume that any of us are destined to wallow in the fiery pits of hellfire and brimstone forever and ever. 
On the other hand, it might prompt thoughtful people to think about philosophical issues like, "What am I gonna do with my time?" And that's a bigger topic for a longer thread than this one . . .











> so conclusion, theres more to me than my conscious life and my body. in fact, i am a 'self' or an "i", that connot be seen or touched unless i manifest myself through my behavior or my talk. i have free will because im a 'self' or a soul and im not just a brain.
> 
> (most of this from J. P. Moreland)


This pap came from JP Moreland? Never heard of her. Too bad you relied on the product of someone else's thinking -- I'm sure you could have done a better job if you had trusted your own brain to think these things through based on what you could personally verify.

The notion of "free will" is silly . . . all we have is what appears to be "free will." 
If you actually had free will, you could resolve to beging speaking Farsi tomorrow morning upon waking. But truth is, you can't, because you haven't been in previous conditions which would result in learning the language. 
Ya, for every existing situation, there were the necessary previous conditions that made it possible. For every action, there is a necessary reaction. That's all there is. No more, no less. 

-Tock

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## max2extreme

i think moreland's view is good. i could have come up with something similar im sure, but moreland illustrated the same thing i would have. i dont have time right now to reply thoroughly because im moving, but one thing, if we are just a molecule machine, how do molecules learn? has there ever been an experiment where they tested molecules and the molecule was able to make choices?

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## Tock

> if we are just a molecule machine, how do molecules learn? has there ever been an experiment where they tested molecules and the molecule was able to make choices?


Oh, pleaze . . .

The structures which enable learning are made up of molecules. Everything is made up of atoms, atoms make up molecules, molecules make up cells, cells make up body organs, body organs make up our bodies (what else?), and what we are is, um, all that we are. 

6th grade science . . . 

-Tock

ps-have fun moving . . . I'd rather have all my teeth removed without novocaine than have to move again . . . ugh . .

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## mesomorph

These are the kind of things that are useless to debate just because of all the posts you see here. If you don't believe there is proof, then no one can prove anything to you. But the very complicated nature of this "machine" really proves that there is a God, a creator which I think ultimately is what this argument is centered around, are we eternal or not?

Rom 1:
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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## Tock

> the very complicated nature of this "machine" really proves that there is a God


Not really. 
As complicated as the planet's electronic communication system and all the devices connected to it is, it doesn't mean that it's the work of gods and goddesses. 
There's no need to attribute complex biological systems to unseen gods and goddesses either, unless you can't help but incline toward oversimplified explanations of natural phenomena. 
-Tock

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## mesomorph

> Not really. 
> As complicated as the planet's electronic communication system and all the devices connected to it is, it doesn't mean that it's the work of gods and goddesses. 
> There's no need to attribute complex biological systems to unseen gods and goddesses either, unless you can't help but incline toward oversimplified explanations of natural phenomena. 
> -Tock





> These are the kind of things that are useless to debate


Yeah, that is why I started off my post as I did. I have had this exact discussion at least a thousand times, as I bet you have also, and the results are always the same. I think that is what that scripture says, so apparently the issue has been around for a long time: If someone insists on a certain view of the existence of the universe, their whole "bend" toward anything related to that is going to be fixed.

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## abcdef81

i'd like to believe in life after death and hope there is a heaven, but my gut inclination just makes me think there isn't; when u die ur just dead...kinda like b4 u were born lol

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## oldman

> i'd like to believe in life after death and hope there is a heaven, but my gut inclination just makes me think there isn't; when u die ur just dead...kinda like b4 u were born lol



Bro quit bumping old threads.. All your posts have been bumps of threads going back 2-3 years ago.


~Old

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## Oki-Des

I cant help to think that we as humans are just smart enough to hope there is life after death. Unfortunately I think we are not important enough animals to have some special gift that enables us to live forever. Even if you are reincanated, you cannot remember your last life now, right? Therefore in your next life you wont remember this one anyway. If you are talking about heaven, I also do not feel important enought to have a heaven waiting for me. It sounds nice, but I have no more blind faith.

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## sonar1234

Ho my god edraven29 was my posting name back in 2001, i cannot beleive people are still posting on this question.

Its great to see all the different opinions people have on this subject.

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## Joey2ness

> Well, if Evil is the absence of Good, what is Good? The absence of Evil?
> 
> That still doesn't explain anything . . .
> 
> -Tock


There is no evil in any human soul. It is the lack of love that distorts people. We are designed by God to self-correct, just like the rest of the universe. 

Evil created by God

It’s interesting to consider that those who violate are responding to a part of themselves they find unacceptable. Adolph Hitler had one testicle that never descended. If had he believed in self who loved himself the way he was, he might have lived a very different life, although certainly we created Adolph the way we needed him to be.

In the Holy Bible 

Deuteronomy 23:1, if your testicles are crushed or your male member 
missing, you must never enter a sanctuary of the Lord” (Church or Heaven)

Leviticus 21:20-23 states that NO MAN who has lost a testicle is 
allowed to approach the alter or make a food sacrifice to God.

The Bible says, "You saw me(''Hitler'') before I(''Hitler'') was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16] 

God never does anything accidentally, and he never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal was planned by God, and every person was designed with a purpose in mind. 

God had a divine plan for Adolph Hitler

God has his plan, and that plan is running down its track like a freight train. Holocaust victims could pray all day, and they would still die. 

This means that Hitler is blameless. Hitler was not "evil," because Hitler had no free will at all. Hitler was simply an actor forced to play his role in God's plan. God planned for millions of people to die in the Holocaust -- he planned their deaths in exact detail. Hitler had to kill those people. Hitler was God's puppet in making that those millions of deaths happen right on schedule.

Nostradamus (December 14, 1503 – July 2, 1566), born Michel de Nostredame, is one of the world's most famous authors of prophecies. 

Nostradamus predicted the rise of three "anti-christs". The first was Napaulon Roy, the second was Hister, and the third is referred to as Mabus. 

Napaulon Roy = Napoleon
Hister = Hitler
Mabus =Some people believe that mabus is a combination of 2 names of our time which are osa(ma)and (bus)h making mabus

osama kills people+people hate him
bush kills people+people hate him

And the predictions were made in 15th century before any of the Anti-Christ were born or existed. Did Nostradamus see Gods plan? 

Fact: Hitler and Napoleon both had only one testicle.

It has been claimed that both Hitler and Napoleon were afflicted by such a lack of symmetry, and suggested that this may have played a role in their particular psychological makeup.

What I Took From This: Some men need little tiny red sports cars, and busty blond 19-year-old girls to show that they still measure up...while others need to take over Europe. 

Unlike other men, Hitler and Napoleon couldn't really think with their penis, since they only had one testicle. For many men, that’s like losing half their brain. As a result, they tried to take over Europe

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## Flagg

"Today, a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather." Bill Hicks

That is one of the most profound things I've ever heard anyone say. Personally I think people are no different to an alarm clock or battery. Once you turn one off or it runs out of power, that's it. But there are some very odd and unexplainable things in the world I don't doubt are true.

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## sonar1234

I dont know if anyone can relate to the bible anymore, just the fact that some stuff says Jesus was married and add children.

Bible changed hands way to often has well and has suffered the telephone game.

I would which there would be a life after death cause my father passed away in Febuary and i lost many members of my family that i would very much love to see again.

The fact that you come back in another life has never been proven either after all if you dont remember what your past mistakes are how can you be sent back to get it right this time.

Humans today are selfish and more of me myself and i, more divorce more cheating.

Humans have lost almost all there values so i guess that if everyone comes back to solve stuff then everyone this time around will be coming back.

Church was there to put fear inside man, now that almost everyone doesnt go to church anymore it has taken a huge back burn.

Now has for justice in this world i would never worry about that cause everyone has hard times, i do beleive that if you do bad you are gonna get yours this is the law of return.

I have read some long research on NDE, OBE and more and there are always hope then science that comes in and sort of mess the cards up.

Problem is that this is a hot subject and there is a lot of money to be done, many people will say they are psychic or medium and make so much money out of it.

But then again some people are gifted for real, my girlfriend best friend went to a psychic and she add a secret that only very few people knew about, she lost a baby when she was 21, not even her own mother knew that and the psychic told her, she then proceeded to tell her how she was and described her boyfriend the way he was, without ever seeing him once and without her saying nothing, only thing that women ask is your name and your birth date thats all.

So this confuses the cards again.

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## mcpeepants

i believe in the afterlife. i have no proof that it exist, just faith

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## KrooC

*all religions were created to help man find comfort in death*

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## Kale

This thread is five years old. Hello !!! Has anybody that contributed in the last five years died ? Maybe we could ask them !!!!

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## zimmy

hey that shows it! This thread was pretty much dead...adn here it is resurrected... THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH! :P

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## sonar1234

Yeah i open that tread with my old login name edraven29, its really funny to see that its still running after 5 years.

I must be gifted or something.

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## Maniacal

There is a fault with the word "faith". It's good to observe and to believe but not to extrapolate too much. Form reasonable conclusions from your observations. Religion is such that the more you believe in something with the least amount of proof you have this great quality called "faith". Ignorance is praised. The scientific method is disdained because it means you have no faith. Everything is bass-ackwards. No wonder we have so many religions. Let me take you by the hand and let's go down the road called "faith". Let's walk down into oblivion and believe whatever we want to believe. So listen to me my brothers and sisters..if you don't believe in what I am telling you it is because you don't have faith. Shame on you!

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## Flagg

Of course Religion was created to give man comfort in death, cause even now, thousands of years down, we're still afraid of the dark and uncertainty.

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## boxingbean

dont beleive in heaven or hell...or the good book....

if anything.........i believe with all that dam de ja vu incidents people sayin being stalked by someone who claims to KNOW or rmbr bla bla bla

id say reincarnation. JMO

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## Ufa

Was there life before birth? Holy Shit this thread is 5 years old.

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## sonar1234

Many people i know did regression (Past life exploration) and they told me it makes a lot of sense.

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## cj1capp

i rember this thread from some time ago. looks like it will never die

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## Phreak101

> Many people i know did regression (Past life exploration) and they told me it makes a lot of sense.


If everything is made up of the same type of matter, it would make sense that we might have some of the "memories" (whatever makes them up) of another person in our organic matter after we are born.

Who knows...

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