# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  Returns you get for your effort!!!

## Ronnie Rowland

*Returns you get for your effort.*

You get the most returns for your efforts with the first 3 sets for any given body part. Regardless of how many different exercises you perform for a given bodypart the ability to generate intensity is reduced considerably by the time you finish set # 5. Considerably less and less muscle tissue will be broken down with each consecutive set there after. After that point, the curve starts to taper off but 6 sets still provides gains. After 6 sets the curve continues to slope down and you will obtain even less results for your efforts! This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain strength. 

There's a strong correlation between getting the most returns for your efforts during the first 5 sets of an exercise and increasing your odds of developing an over-use injury when exceeding 5 sets. Your ability to generate intensity using only 1 exercise for a particular body part will be greatly diminished by the time you've finished 5 sets. By switching over to a second exercise after doing 5 sets of the first exercise, you will increase the returns you get for your efforts during the second exercise because you'll be working from a different angle. The second exercise will fully breakdown down the remaining muscle fibers that are present within the muscle group. This means trying to go past that point by inserting a 3rd exercise would be a complete waste of time because the entire muscle has already been broken down. By doing 5 sets a piece with your two main exercises you will break down more muscle tissue and gain more strength than if you were to perform 16 sets with 4 different exercises. Performing upwards of 16-20 sets for a body part in one session would cause you to waste a lot of time because a muscle no longer fires with optimal force once you go past doing 10 sets. Regardless of how many different exercises you use for a particular body part, the ability to generate intensity is over with after 10 work sets. This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain size. 

Performing more than 10 sets will make you refrain from using great intensity on every work set. For instance, if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you had 15 sets left using 3 different exercises, you wouldn't push yourself nearly as hard as if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you only had 5 sets left with only 1 other exercise. After completing 10 sets for a body part, it's virtually impossible to generate enough intensity to further break down any substantial amount of muscle tissue. By trying to do so, it creates a scenario where the Central Nervous System and joints have to work harder to keep moving the weights while the muscles are working less. You can only stimulate the muscles so much in any given training session. After reaching the point of diminishing returns, high volume trainers who train each body part using 16-20 sets have to over-strain to try and make up for the muscles inability to put forth effort. This creates tons of stress and possible injuries to the muscles, tendons, and joints. When fatigue is so great that stabilizers and synergists (which generally give out faster than the prime movers) become too tired to allow maintenance of proper form, you're asking for an injury. Train till the muscles gives out; not the joints!

FACT: Adding in a few extra sets after the completion of 10 work sets is not going to do anything but lengthen your workout and hamper the recovery process. The muscle is sufficiently stressed and fatigued already. Lastly, the extra sets would expose you to injury through over-use!

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## Tenmoney

Aswesome post. Where can I read the data about how the curve in muscle breakdown drops after the 5th set?

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## moush

great post! I would also like to see that data

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## sonnygll

> *Returns you get for your effort.*
> 
> You get the most returns for your efforts with the first 3 sets for any given body part. Regardless of how many different exercises you perform for a given bodypart the ability to generate intensity is reduced considerably by the time you finish set # 5. Considerably less and less muscle tissue will be broken down with each consecutive set there after. After that point, the curve starts to taper off but 6 sets still provides gains. After 6 sets the curve continues to slope down and you will obtain even less results for your efforts! This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain strength. 
> 
> There's a strong correlation between getting the most returns for your efforts during the first 5 sets of an exercise and increasing your odds of developing an over-use injury when exceeding 5 sets. Your ability to generate intensity using only 1 exercise for a particular body part will be greatly diminished by the time you've finished 5 sets. By switching over to a second exercise after doing 5 sets of the first exercise, you will increase the returns you get for your efforts during the second exercise because you'll be working from a different angle. The second exercise will fully breakdown down the remaining muscle fibers that are present within the muscle group. This means trying to go past that point by inserting a 3rd exercise would be a complete waste of time because the entire muscle has already been broken down. By doing 5 sets a piece with your two main exercises you will break down more muscle tissue and gain more strength than if you were to perform 16 sets with 4 different exercises. Performing upwards of 16-20 sets for a body part in one session would cause you to waste a lot of time because a muscle no longer fires with optimal force once you go past doing 10 sets. Regardless of how many different exercises you use for a particular body part, the ability to generate intensity is over with after 10 work sets. This must be taken into consideration when trying to gain size. 
> 
> Performing more than 10 sets will make you refrain from using great intensity on every work set. For instance, if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you had 15 sets left using 3 different exercises, you wouldn't push yourself nearly as hard as if you were on your 5th set for quads, and you knew you only had 5 sets left with only 1 other exercise. After completing 10 sets for a body part, it's virtually impossible to generate enough intensity to further break down any substantial amount of muscle tissue. By trying to do so, it creates a scenario where the Central Nervous System and joints have to work harder to keep moving the weights while the muscles are working less. You can only stimulate the muscles so much in any given training session. After reaching the point of diminishing returns, high volume trainers who train each body part using 16-20 sets have to over-strain to try and make up for the muscles inability to put forth effort. This creates tons of stress and possible injuries to the muscles, tendons, and joints. When fatigue is so great that stabilizers and synergists (which generally give out faster than the prime movers) become too tired to allow maintenance of proper form, you're asking for an injury. Train till the muscles gives out; not the joints!
> 
> FACT: Adding in a few extra sets after the completion of 10 work sets is not going to do anything but lengthen your workout and hamper the recovery process. The muscle is sufficiently stressed and fatigued already. Lastly, the extra sets would expose you to injury through over-use!



I mostly agree with that. However on higher volume routines using accumulated fatigue, the number of sets will be higher. Like say you do 3 rep sets at 80%, the number is more like 10 to 12. Or with GVT 10X10 at 66 to 70%. So I think it's workload or total volume rather than X number of sets.

But yea, all that 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 5 exercises for 8 to 12 reps close to failure stuff is silly. Joe Weider, who publishes magazines and probably doesn't know dick about weight lifting came up with that nearly 40 years ago. Strange that it is still being used. I guess people read about it in Muscle Mag and think that's the way to go.

Speaking of that, those random body part splits are pretty outdated too. Splitting by movement makes WAY more sense. Like people say it's movements, not muscles.

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> i still think 10 sets is way over kill
> 
> this is about adaption, not beating the shit out of yourself.........I think in terms of providing the stimulus into becoming a larger me, not seeing how much muscle damage i can accumulate......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we are talking about adaption here......muscles adapting to lift a larger weight-thus becoming larger to do so
> 
> ...


IronReload, I mean no disrespect but your statements make absolutely no sense. I hope you will listen to what I have to say here because it will help you gain more muscle size. 

It's impossible for anyone to continue adding 5-10 pounds to the bar "every" single time they train. I do not understand why people make such bogus claims? You know deep down this is incorrect. I have trained a many of power-lifters. None of my trainees (power-lifters or bodybuilders) have been able to add 5-10 lbs every single time they train nor will they ever be able to. It's impossible! *Again, you cannot believe everything being posted on the internet!* I think you are sincere in what you believe and do not question your intelligence for a moment, but I think you have lost your way like so many others on the bodybuilding boards.

Many are being brainwashed into thinking super low volume/high intensity training is the path that leads to greatness. I hope to change this belief. After all, if using only very low volume on a long term basis produced better gains, then by all means, I would be encouraging everyone including myself to use it. I would have no problem whatsoever with performing only 2 sets for each body part every week and neither would anyone else. Unfortunately, it just doesnt work that way! I think most realize its a bogus way to train for extended periods of time and thats the reason most elite bodybuilders of this era (both natural and drug enhanced) use more volume! 

On the other hand, some are also being brainwashed into believing super high volume always equal more gains. Now, if using high volume for extended periods of time equated more gains then, I would have my clients use 30 intense sets for each body part every single week of the year. I think most realize high volume is a bogus way to train long term and thats the reason most of the pro-bodybuilders of this era have left this style of training. 

It's very disappointing for me to watch both avid *lower volume trainees* and *higher trainees* overlook the success that can be made by alternating back and forth between the two different types of training protocols using sensible training intensity. And this effect is rapidly lost after only a few weeks. Ive experimented with this multiple ways, and the three-way training phase rotation (prime-blast-cruise) will keep from plateauing until you reach your full-genetic potential. 

I agree that if you fail to reach your ultimate strength levels as a bodybuilder, you will not be able to reach your full genetic muscular potential. However, powerlifting is not the same as bodybuilding and if you want to truly be good at either you will do well to remember this. *Isolation* and *Pump* are critical to making any muscle grow larger. Strength gains can occur without any size gains! And even worse, those who equate very low volume strength gains with muscle size will reduce their ability to break down the muscle fibers in their entirety. Performing only 1 to 2 sets per body major body part doesnt produce enough of a flushing effect to aid in muscle/joint recovery. There will be no extra blood to flush oxygen and nutrients into the tissue. The lack of pump will not stretch out the fascia and give the muscles more room to expand. A nice pump creates internal pressure within the muscle that causes the fibers to rub viciously against one another. This rubbing creates trauma to the tissue and the body sends essential amino acids to repair the damage. 

That being said, you do not have to create a tremendous pump, just as you *CANNOT* improve on strength each training session to gain muscle. Regardless of what you may have been told, no ones nervous system tolerates beyond failure training very well. The bad kind of pain it creates to the joints is unbearable for most and it makes them dread going to the gym. Training with beyond failure techniques does not mean that you will tap into all available muscle fibers. The only way to stimulate all the fibers in their entirety is to increase training volume by way of adding straight sets during the appropriate time frames. 

In final, Mike Mentzer made his best gains doing 10 sets a week not only 1 or 2 sets like many have been led to believe. Dorian Yates made the majority of his gains when he was using about 12 sets once a week.

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## MuscleScience

See if you guys can find this paper I cant upload the whole paper due to size. 

A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ACSM POSITION STAND ON RESISTANCE TRAINING: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT RECOMMENDED TRAINING PROTOCOLS

RALPH N. CARPINELLI1, ROBERT M. OTTO1, RICHARD A. WINETT2

1Human Performance Laboratory, Adelphi University, Garden City, New York 11530 USA
2Center for Research in Health Behavior, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia 24061 USA

ABSTRACT

A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ACSM POSITION STAND ON RESISTANCE TRAINING: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT RECOMMENDED TRAINING PROTOCOLS. Ralph N. Carpinelli, Robert M. Otto, Richard A. Winett. JEPonline 2004;7(3):1-60. In February 2002, the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) published a Position Stand entitled Progression Models in Resistance Training for Healthy Adults. The ACSM claims that the programmed manipulation of resistance-training protocols such as the training modality, repetition duration, range of repetitions, number of sets, and frequency of training will differentially affect specific physiological adaptations such as muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and endurance. The ACSM also asserts that for progression in healthy adults, the programs for intermediate, advanced, and elite trainees must be different from those prescribed for novices. An objective evaluation of the resistance-training studies shows that these claims are primarily unsubstantiated. In fact, the preponderance of resistance-training studies suggest that simple, low-volume, time-efficient, resistance training is just as effective for increasing muscular strength, hypertrophy, power, and enduranceregardless of training experienceas are the complex, high-volume, time-consuming protocols that are recommended in the Position Stand. This document examines the basis for many of the claims in the Position Stand and provides an objective review of the resistance training literature.

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> dorian yates was using roughly 3-5 work sets.....specifically about 4 in blood and guts, when he was muscularly the largest he had ever been
> 
> 
> i agree that strength gains are not always a direct result of muscle gains.....But i whole heartedly agree that they are most definately a precursor at the very least to size gains.....and some times, strength is a result of mass ganes
> 
> force=mass(acceleration).....it follows that strength gains can be either nuerological or by mass
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*IronReload, thanks for the very good discussion!!*

1) You cannot scatch and claw your way to making weight increases every single training session. Everyone who has trained for over 6 months knows this. This is excatly why power-lifters use periodization as opposed to doing the same amount of work. It take proper periodization to get stronger.

2) *You ask me what more sets have to offer?* Think of it like this-as a bodybuilder, anything below 4 reps wont recruit and exhaust the muscle fibers sufficiently. Squatting for 3 sets of 6 reps breaks down more muscle tissue than squatting 6 sets of 3 reps, even though the total reps are the same. Why? It's because the *contractile proteins* in a cell are responsible for the majority of muscular growth. In order to make these *contractile proteins* grow larger, you must expose them to enough stress to do actual damage-hence another reason always utilizing very low volume is a poor choice for building maximum muscle mass. It is not enough to recruit a muscle fiber per se, you must also damage the actin and myosin filaments within if you want that muscle to grow considerably larger. This is brought forth by doing most of your sets in the 8-10 rep-ranges, especially after doing your heaviest set. 


Some of the low volume bodybuilders I take under my wing have a real struggle at first with the concept of using more sets and weight training days as a part of a mass/strength-building phase. This is because they have made some of their best gains both in muscle and strength by reducing training volume. Its these same people who did not understand that it took a previously performed higher volume training phase in order to set their body up for making the additional gains during the un-loading phase that followed. Make sense? 

3) Muscle growth and progress for today is not as rare as you have been led to believe. My clients make incredible progress but with any good program things begin to slow down as they near their full potential. 

4) Yates ruinied his joints, tendons, muscles and career by using beyond failure techniques with low volume. It wasn't his training style that made him Huge just as it wasn't Arnold's training style that made him huge. It was GENETICS!

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## eddy tye

lots of good stuff in here,thx for the post guys

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YATES.......HE SAID IT HIMSELF IN AN INTERVIEW THAT HE REALLY TOOK OFF AFTER HIS ROUTINE EVOVED INTO WHAT IT WAS COMPARED TO HIS SLIGHTLY HIGHER VOLUME DAYS IN THE LATE 80'S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOOD CONVO GOING HERE
> 
> O, I ANSWERED IN CAPS, BY THE WAY INSIDE THE QUOTE


1) I agree that age plays a role in making progress but even the youth will not be able to make progress every single time they lift. I have been training a 57 year old ex-marine who has made just as many strength gains as a natural as most of the youth I have trained who were natural. Oddly enough, he recently found out his testosterone levels were 282. Now thats low! He started on HRT last week. Anxious to see who well he progresss. I agree with you that having the mentality of progression needs to always be there!


2) I train power-lifters as well as bodybuilders and know very well what these men are capable of in terms of being able to diet down and do well for a bodybuilding competition. This has to do with genetics and higher rep training. My powerlifters have a low rep day earlier in the week to build strength and some muscle followed by a higher rep training session later in the week to build endurance, muscle size and some strength.

3) I have yet to see anyone use Dorian Yates training methods of only 4 sets once a week and duplicated his results. Have you? Of course not! I am of the opinion that Dorian responded well to drugs (genetics once again) and would have been able to gain even more size and competed years down the road if it weren't for the training style he used during the latter part of his career. 

*Go read about the injuries Dorian Yates occured when he started beyond failure training? He did more harm that good!*

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## sonnygll

> See if you guys can find this paper I cant upload the whole paper due to size. 
> 
> A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ACSM POSITION STAND ON RESISTANCE TRAINING: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT RECOMMENDED TRAINING PROTOCOLS
> 
> RALPH N. CARPINELLI1, ROBERT M. OTTO1, RICHARD A. WINETT2
> 
> 1Human Performance Laboratory, Adelphi University, Garden City, New York 11530 USA
> 2Center for Research in Health Behavior, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia 24061 USA
> 
> ...


I know what paper you are talking about. It was discovered the old ACSM guidelines were made from a study of untrained lifters. So it is valid only for novices. Where as more advanced lifters need more sets.


Slingshot, I totally agree on that beyond failure stuff. That is an advanced tool for very light and occasional use. It makes no sense all the people you see blowing out the CNS, risking injury, and on top of that, their partner is lifting most of the weight.

Ironreload, 10 sets is not always overkill. Look at German Volume Training for example. A very effective training protocol created by the legendary Charles Poliquin.

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## MuscleScience

> I know what paper you are talking about. It was discovered the old ACSM guidelines were made from a study of untrained lifters. So it is valid only for novices. Where as more advanced lifters need more sets.
> 
> 
> Slingshot, I totally agree on that beyond failure stuff. That is an advanced tool for very light and occasional use. It makes no sense all the people you see blowing out the CNS, risking injury, and on top of that, their partner is lifting most of the weight.
> 
> Ironreload, 10 sets is not always overkill. Look at German Volume Training for example. A very effective training protocol created by the legendary Charles Poliquin.



No this is a different paper. It is a review article that is over 50 pages long and has 170 references in it. It is pretty much one of the most current and best described papers in modern resistance training theory to date. I actually cited this paper in my dissertation last May.

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## Ronnie Rowland

> No this is a different paper. It is a review article that is over 50 pages long and has 170 references in it. It is pretty much one of the most current and best described papers in modern resistance training theory to date. I actually cited this paper in my dissertation last May.


Muscle Science,the defintion of low volume and high can mean many things to different people. For some 10 sets is low volume. What's their definition of low volume vs high volume?

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## MuscleScience

> Muscle Science,the defintion of low volume and high can mean many things to different people. For some 10 sets is low volume. What's their definition of low volume vs high volume?



I really dont have any opinion on the matter right now. All the data shows that you get just as much benefit from one set of a particular exercise within a good working resistance range as is doing 3 to 4 or more sets. My personal bias tells me that doing one set would do nothing for me. But a lot of good research studies that have come out lately from very reputable labs from scientists a lot smarter than me that say other wise. 

To tell you the truth even in the exercise science field right now. The two major organizations NSCA and ACSM are a odds with each other on some things. To add to that a newer organization ASEP has its own set of recommendations. I tend to follow ACSM and ASEP, were ASEP is the most current and unbiased with its information.

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## sonnygll

> I really dont have any opinion on the matter right now. All the data shows that you get just as much benefit from one set of a particular exercise within a good working resistance range as is doing 3 to 4 or more sets. My personal bias tells me that doing one set would do nothing for me. But a lot of good research studies that have come out lately from very reputable labs from scientists a lot smarter than me that say other wise. 
> 
> To tell you the truth even in the exercise science field right now. The two major organizations NSCA and ACSM are a odds with each other on some things. To add to that a newer organization ASEP has its own set of recommendations. I tend to follow ACSM and ASEP, were ASEP is the most current and unbiased with its information.



That is the old ACSM guielines. The studies were on untrained lifters. So it's only valid for novices. It seems to me the new guidelines state that now.

At the top you see the old guidelines. At the bottom is the new ones. As you can see for hypertrophy it states higher volume multi-set programs. But with that said regardless of goals, it is still better to start with the beginner program and not advance to the hypertrophy programs until later. 

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Guidelines.html

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## InsaneInTheMembrane

Great thread guys! 

I myself find that the sweet spot for me is 9-12 working sets, depending on the size of the muscles I am working. I've tried high volume, moderate weight workouts and my muscles don't feel anything the next day, I've tried low reps/sets with heavy weights and feel my muscles are somewhat underutilized. So the 10 sets philosophy, either 2 exercises of 5 sets or 3 exercises of 3(to4) sets, allows you to 1. Hit one muscle from more angles, 2. activate fast and slow twitch fibers (especially if you do a pyramid scheme upwards or downwards) and 3. sufficiently and with intensity, burn out your muscles without annihilating your CNS and causing overtraining.

From my experiences,
just my .02,
cheers

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## Ronnie Rowland

> Great thread guys! 
> 
> I myself find that the sweet spot for me is 9-12 working sets, depending on the size of the muscles I am working. I've tried high volume, moderate weight workouts and my muscles don't feel anything the next day, I've tried low reps/sets with heavy weights and feel my muscles are somewhat underutilized. So the 10 sets philosophy, either 2 exercises of 5 sets or 3 exercises of 3(to4) sets, allows you to 1. Hit one muscle from more angles, 2. activate fast and slow twitch fibers (especially if you do a pyramid scheme upwards or downwards) and 3. sufficiently and with intensity, burn out your muscles without annihilating your CNS and causing overtraining.
> 
> From my experiences,
> just my .02,
> cheers


*Very nice job of summing things up!!!*

Moderate volume has worked best for everyone I have trained. I've never had a single client who made better gains by always doing what I define as low volume or high volume. You can make gains doing just about anything, but maximium progress is always obtained using a more moderate approach.

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## IronReload04

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## sonnygll

Yep, sounds like you're a genetic freak alright. Must be nice. Mine are kinda crappy.

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> and dorian has stated himself in interviews
> 
> some thing along the lines
> 
> 
> if you could put my head in some of these other guys' bodies, theirs no telling what could have been.....I win because i am more determined and driven then the rest
> 
> 
> implying that some of the other guys had greater genetic abilities


Ironreload, first I'd like to say job well done! You have some very good genetics and I am sure you train very hard. 

A friend of mine who competed as a bodybuilder never looked worse after having met Dorian. Yates had him believing all that was needed is 1 beyond failure work set a week. My friend got fat and eventually had to have his tricep tendon repaired from doing skull-crushers rest-paused style. Again, you simply cannot believe everything you read about how some of these pros claim to train. 

I'll post a before and after pic a bit later in this same thread to show you what the *Slingshot Training System* is capable of doing for someone like mysef who has poor genetics. I am your classic skinny-fat man...LOL..You have seen Tricky Jackson and already see what it can do for someone with very good genetics. 



I regards to rest-pause training- I’ve witnessed more tendon tears from rest-pause techniques than any other form of training. I've had one severe tendon injury in my lifting career and it came about from using rest-pause. Remember, once you are injured, that area may never be the same! I’m not telling you that straight sets or my training system is the only one way to success, or that all other training systems are wrong. I’m all about teaching others what I have found to be optimal. Yates was HIT but I do not think DC likes to be associated with HIT and for that I cannot blame him one bit.


The biggest training myth of all times says that people should use different training techniques to compliment their genetic make-up. It’s simply not true! Nor does experience dictate which training methods (straights sets verses beyond failure techniques) are most effective. Just because something has been shown to work doesn't mean it’s the best way! 


Often I have heard statements from other trainees letting me know that many are still clueless about the role genetics play in how one responds to training, diet and especially drugs. The term genetics is certainly an over-used word in the bodybuilding community. I really hate to say it again but here goes- “just because someone with better genetics is getting bigger-stronger-leaner using a particular routine doesn’t prove they are doing things the right way”! 


Over the past 25 years I have run into all kinds of beyond failure fanatics. The human body wasn’t designed to go beyond failure. If you cannot lift a weight on your own within a given set, the weight load is too heavy! Extreme training methods have tore many a tendon clean off the bone and just about everyone who uses these techniques for long periods of time always develops a severe injury. Dorian Yates is a prime example!


Furthermore, techniques like rest-pause can weaken the muscle so severely it will cause a tendon to rip clean off the bone before muscle failure occurs in the rest-paused reps within the set. It makes no difference whether or not the rest-paused reps are performed in the high or low rep range because extreme fatigue is still present and this stress carries over to the vulnerable tendons and joints. The secret is training till the muscles give out; not the joints!


Listen, I’ve spoken with literally thousands of trainers over the years who can vividly recall their last and final beyond failure training session. They grew to hate training and the gym with all their heart, mind, and soul! I think this speaks volumes about its validity in training to get huge muscles. I have been around bodybuilders for almost 30 years and I truly believe many have the dedication to apply themselves. I don’t want others to make the mistake of pumping up their muscles with massive amounts of blood or pushing the muscles beyond belief with low reps/sets and when they’re finished, be no better off muscle wise. With that being said, there are some beyond failure training programs out there that will allow trainees to gain muscle at a nice pace. But, there are usually consequences that follow. Oddly enough, training with beyond failure techniques and having to take a very long lay-off from the gym due to an injury is the best thing that’s happened to some people. Why? They wise up to the fact their body and mind can’t take that kind of abuse for long before eventually having to give up training altogether. These individuals soon realize there’s no value in training methods that aren’t user friendly. It’s no secret that beyond failure training methods will impair the body’s immune defense against infection and this is the very reason the people who follow these types of programs catch colds and viral infections at least twice as often as normal trainees. Your main concern as a bodybuilder should be longevity! Unfortunately, much of what has been written is doing a lot more harm than good. It’s brought forth much confusion and inconsistencies to the bodybuilding community, not to mention some very nasty injuries!

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## sonnygll

> Ironreload, first I'd like to say job well done! You have some very good genetics and I am sure you train very hard. 
> 
> A friend of mine who competed as a bodybuilder never looked worse after having met Dorian. Yates had him believing all that was needed is 1 beyond failure work set a week. My friend got fat and eventually had to have his tricep tendon repaired from doing skull-crushers rest-paused style. Again, you simply cannot believe everything you read about how some of these pros claim to train. 
> 
> I'll post a before and after pic a bit later in this same thread to show you what the *Slingshot Training System* is capable of doing for someone like mysef who has poor genetics. I am your classic skinny-fat man...LOL..You have seen Tricky Jackson and already see what it can do for someone with very good genetics. 
> 
> 
> 
> I regards to rest-pause training- Ive witnessed more tendon tears from rest-pause techniques than any other form of training. I've had one severe tendon injury in my lifting career and it came about from using rest-pause. Remember, once you are injured, that area may never be the same! Im not telling you that stright sets or my training system is the only one way to success, or that all other training systems are wrong. Im all about teaching others what I have found to be optimal. Yates was HIT but I do not think DC likes to be associated with HIT and for that I cannot blame him one bit.
> ...



I'll second that. Totally agree.

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> when you refer to rest pausing....specifically, what kind of rest pausing is tearing people's tendons...their is several kinds of rest pausing
> 
> 
> because i am a very active member of intensemuscle.com.........dc.........and the only exercise I am aware of that has EVER injured some one following dantes advice to the tea, is the flat barbell bench press.....hence why he advises against it, and people ignore him anyway
> 
> 
> rep ranges do seem to be a factor with all this, its why certain exercises get higher rep ranges with us...
> 
> 
> ...



IronReload, I never said "Dante" or "Dorian" would intentionally try and get anyone injured. 

You may not realize it but you are putting Dante's training style and Dorian's training styles in the same boat. DC says his training is not HIT. Dorian claims his style of training is HIT. Now I have a question for you. Why is it that DC training is not HIT and Dorians sytle of training is HIT since both of them use beyond failure which is considered HIT? I am really confused on this one! 

DC training is based on using 1 exercise per body part and I think he believes in using machines. My quess is that Dante beleives that when a muscle fires, it fires as a whole. And the machines are used for safety reasons which I think is very smart on his behalf when training rest-pause style. If I were to ever train rest-pause again it would definetly be with machines or cables.

Dorian believes mutiple exercises are needed to hit the muscle fully. He thinks isolation movements should be rest-paused where as DC does not if I recall correctly. Dorian thinks DC's idea about not needing to train a muscle at different angles is irrational. So, I do not understand how it is you can be for both styles of training seeing they conflict with one another. 

Most of the tendon tears I have witnessed were with heavy weights for 5-6 reps then resting for about 10-15 seconds, then squeezing out another 2-3 reps. However, I popped my bicep tendon clean off the bone doing dumbbell curls. I started out doing 10 reps to good failure, waited 15 seconds and squeezed out about 4 more reps, waited another 15 seconds to get another two rep or so and my right bicep tendon ripped clean off the bone about half way during the "negative" part of the first repetition. I heard 3 loud pops and the dumbbell hit the ground. The pain was excruciating and I'll never train beyond failure again. 

The surgery was tough because they had to drill a hole in my elbow and re-attach the bicep tendon. Took 6 months before I could train light. I thought I'd never be able to extend my arm fully again but my doc knew what he was doing. I still get a twinge in that left elbow that wasnt there prior to the accident. I was using perfect form, etc. I have never hurt my tendon with straight sets but it can be done. I know because I have seen it as well. But, it's almost always due to improper lifting. I believe I almost done the same thing to my tricep tendon doing skull crushers rest pause because my right elbow tendon started acting up after my bicep tendon surgery. My friends poped his tricep tendon doing around 6 reps, waiting 10 seonds and doing 2-3 more reps to 100% failure. 

Even most of the HIT trainees who are dieting down shift toward straight sets to reduce the injury factor. That should be a heads up. I for one learned my lesson and will do my best to keep others out of harms way. I would never intentionally try to steer anyone in the wrong direction. The majority of top level bodybuilders and power-lifters  throughout the years have made their very best gains using straight sets. All in all I believe DC is safer than Yates if he is still teaching the use of only compound movements and machines. Using free weight rest-pause style with isolation movements like Dorian used is a disaster waiting to happen!!!!!!!

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## sonnygll

I saw Dorian Yates video. His workout is sort of low volume, but it isn't HIT. He does 2 to 4 sets of 2 or 3 exercises per body part. Or sometimes 1 set of many exercises. Plus some of his warm up sets are practically working sets.

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## Ronnie Rowland

> I saw Dorian Yates video. His workout is sort of low volume, but it isn't HIT. He does 2 to 4 sets of 2 or 3 exercises per body part. Or sometimes 1 set of many exercises. Plus some of his warm up sets are practically working sets.


Sonny, Dorian Yates used High Intensity Training (HIT)-hence putting forth 100% maximum effort into a few incredibly intense sets. When Dorian first started training, he followed an Upper-Lower split for a couple of years. Next, he progressed into more of a typical bodybuilding routine, training roughly 4 days per week- every muscle group only once a week. He was doing drops sets & forced reps by this time using a modified version of Mentzer.

By 1992 Dorian was training 3-4 days a week employing 2 work sets for each major exercise, with drop sets, pre-exhaust, and other beyond failure methods. 

It was around 1993 when he decided to use the one set per exercise approach. Hi track record proves his methods are a bad idea for the masses as it caused him burn out and injury.

*Dorian had incredible genetics!*

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## Ronnie Rowland

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLINGSHOT TRAINING GURU 
IronReload, I never said "Dante" or "Dorian" would ever intentionally try and get anyone injured. 

You may not realize it but you are putting Dante's training style and Dorian's training styles in the same boat. DC says his training is not HIT. Dorian claims his style of training is HIT. Now I have a question for you. Why is it that DC training is not HIT and Dorians sytle of training is HIT since both of them use beyond failure which is considered HIT? I am really confused on this one! 

I CANT REMEMBER THE EXACT REASON DANTE GIVES, BUT I KNOW ITS A GOOD ONE...I WILL SEE IF I CAN DIG IT UP. I THINK IT WAS ALONG THE LINES THAT MENZTER CREATED HIT......AND MENZTER WAS OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE ABOUT OVER TRAINING, WHERE DC IS IS REALLY HIGH ON FREQUENCY......MENZTER USED A DIFFERENT STYLE OF REST PAUSING.........DC IS NOT JUST ANOTHER VERSION OF HIT, ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, WHICH IS WHY HE DOESNT LIKE THE COMPARISON

DC training is based on using 1 exercise per body part and I think he believes in using machines. My quess is that Dante beleives that when a muscle fires, it fires as a whole. And the machines are used for safety reasons which I think is very smart on his behalf when training rest-pause style. If I were to ever train rest-pause again it would be definetly be with machines or cables.

DANTE WANTS US USING FREE WEIGHTS WHENEVER POSSIBLE. IT IS PREFERRED FOR MOST GUYS. MACHINES ARE FOR GUYS WHO TRAIN WITHOUT SPOTTERS.....MACHINES ARE ALSO GOOD ALTERNATIVES FOR WHEN EXERCSISES GO STALE......AND THEN LAST BUT NOT LEAST, IN WHICH THIS PROBABLY DOESNT APPLY FOR MOST PEOPLE, BUT YES SAFETY ISSUES.....TAKE JASON WOJO FOR INSTANCE, I BELIEVE HE DOESNT LIKE BARBELLS, THE GUY IS ALSO I BELIEVE ABLE TO FLAT BENCH PRESS 500 FOR REPS, BUT HE DOESNT FOR SAFETY REASONS....THAT ASIDE, FLAT BARBELL BENCH PRESS IS NOT PART OF DC

Dorian believes mutiple exercises are needed to hit the muscle fully. He thinks isoaltion movements should be rest paused where as DC does not if I recall correctly. Dorian thinks DC's idea about not needing to train a muscle at different angles is irrational. So, I do not understand how it is you can be for both styles of training seeing they conflict with one another. 

YES, THAT IS ONE TOPIC THAT BOTH VIEWS DISAGREE ON. DANTE BELIEVES THAT IF YOU CAN INCLINE BENCH PRESS 405 FOR REPS PERFECT FORM, YOUR CHEST WILL BE HUGE, AND YOU CANT REALLY GROW PARTS OF A MUSCLE, IT GROWS TOGETHER REGARDLESS OF ANGLE....JUST GAIN STRENGTH, AND THE MASS WILL COME......BESIDES, YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT IN 2 WEEKS, EACH MUSCLE GETS 3 DIFFERENT EXERCISES, SO THEIR IS SOME VARIABILITY....WE ALSO DONT DO ISOLATION MOVEMENTS........

I DONT BELIEVE IN DOING ISOLATION MOVES EITHER LIKE DORIAN LIKE TO

Most of the tendon tears I have witnessed were with heavy weights for 5-6 reps then resting for about 10-15 seconds, then squeezing out another 2-3 reps. However, I popped my bicep tendon clean off the bone doing dumbbell curls. I started out doing 10 reps to good failure, waited 15 seconds and squeezed out 4 more reps, waited another 15 seconds to get another rep or two and my right bicep tendon ripped clean off the bone about half way during the "negative" part of the first repetition. I heard 3 loud pops and the dumbbell hit the ground. The pain was excruciating and I'll never train beyond failure again. 

The surgery was tough because they had to drill a hole in my elbow and re-attach the bicep tendon. Took 6 months before I could train light. I thought I'd never be able to extend my arm fully again but my doc knew what he was doing. I still get a twinge in that left elbow that wasnt there prior to the accident. I was using perfect form, etc. I have never hurt my tendon with straight sets but it can be done. I know because I have seen it as well. But, it's almost always due to improper lifting. I believe I almost done the same thing to my tricep tendon doing skull crushers rest pause because my right elbow tendon started acting up after my bicep tendon surgery. My friends poped his tricep tendon doing around 6 reps, waiting 10 seonds and doing 2-3 more reps to 100% failure. 

Even most of the HIT trainees who are dieting down shift toward straight sets to reduce the injury factor. That should be a heads up. I for one learned my lesson and will do my best to keep others out of harms way. I would never intentionally try to steer anyone in the wrong direction. The majority of top level bodybuilders and power-lifters throughout the years have made their very best gains using straight sets. All in all I believe DC is safer than Yates if he is still teaching the use of only compound movements and machines. Using free weight rest-pause style with isolation movements like Dorian used is a disaster waiting to happen!!!!!!!

YOU MENTIONED BEFORE, THAT REPS DONT MATTER....WE BELIEVE THEY DO......5-6 REPS IS JUST TO LOW FOR DC......WE DO OUR SET, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE...SO INCLINE BENCH FOR EXAMPLE TYPICALLY LOOKS LIKE 10/3/2.....DEPENDING ON AGE, REP RANGES ARE 11-20 REPS REST PAUSED.........SKULL CRUSHERS FOR INSTANCE IS MORE LIKE 20-30 REPS REST PAUSES....RISKY EXERCSISES LIKE THIS, AND BICEPS, GET THE HIGHER REP RANGES ALSO



REGARDING THE VERY FIRST COMMENT, I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE TEARING A MUSCLE FROM REST PAUSING DC STYLE BY FOLLOWING DANTE'S ADVICE TO THE TEA.....THATS WHAT I WAS GETTING AT....DANTE HAS BEEN PUTTING MUSCLE MASS ON PEOPLE SINCE THE EARLY 90'S.....TRUST ME, IF REST PAUSING FOR 11-15 REPS WAS RISKY, HE WOULD'NT BE ADVISING IT.......HE ADVISES IT, BECAUSE WITH HIS EXPERIENCE, AS LONG AS GUYS AVOID LOW REPS AND BARBELL FLAT BENCH PRESSING, GUYS ARE NOT TEARING ANYTHING



CAPS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by IronReload04 : Yesterday at 09:03 PM. 

*IronReload, I'll respond to your "caps" in red my friend. Great thread here!!!*
I CANT REMEMBER THE EXACT REASON DANTE GIVES, BUT I KNOW ITS A GOOD ONE...I WILL SEE IF I CAN DIG IT UP. I THINK IT WAS ALONG THE LINES THAT MENZTER CREATED HIT......AND MENZTER WAS OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE ABOUT OVER TRAINING, WHERE DC IS IS REALLY HIGH ON FREQUENCY......MENZTER USED A DIFFERENT STYLE OF REST PAUSING.........DC IS NOT JUST ANOTHER VERSION OF HIT, ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, WHICH IS WHY HE DOESNT LIKE THE COMPARISON

Any system that believes in training to absolute gut bursting failure or beyond is defined as HIT. Understand here that the 1 set per body part concepts go way back. Ellington Darden and the Mentzer’s brothers were promoting this back in the early 70’s. Author Jones invented the first nautilus machine in 1948 but the mass marketing didn’t occur till 1970. The research data that Jones privately funded was remarkable. Anyway, the purpose of these machines was to take 1 exercise per bodypart to absolute 100% gut busting failure. A total body workout could be done in 30 minutes. Is the 1 set to failure route the safest and most productive way to train ? Absolutely not! But, Jones apparently pioneered the whole HIT concepts in the 40’s that others have built upon.


YES, THAT IS ONE TOPIC THAT BOTH VIEWS DISAGREE ON. DANTE BELIEVES THAT IF YOU CAN INCLINE BENCH PRESS 405 FOR REPS PERFECT FORM, YOUR CHEST WILL BE HUGE, AND YOU CANT REALLY GROW PARTS OF A MUSCLE, IT GROWS TOGETHER REGARDLESS OF ANGLE....JUST GAIN STRENGTH, AND THE MASS WILL COME......BESIDES, YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT IN 2 WEEKS, EACH MUSCLE GETS 3 DIFFERENT EXERCISES, SO THEIR IS SOME VARIABILITY....WE ALSO DONT DO ISOLATION MOVEMENTS........

Making a muscle larger has to do with creating fatigue to the muscle itself with overload and adequate amounts of volume. You cannot fully break down all the muscles in the torso and legs doing only 1 exercise per body part. This is why 99.9% of all pro's use multiple angles. They have to use more than 1 exercise inorder to create balance.

Making the muscles stronger through the use of very low reps and low volume has more to do with optimizing CNS output and teaching motor units and muscle fibers to fire in unison in order to create the greatest force possible. You cannot continue lifting heavier weights each time you train in order to grow. Strength gains are not made in that type of linear fashion. There are several strength coaches who are small because they always train with low volume!!!

Powerlifter’s and strongmen competitors have learned the value of preventing "injuries" and "nervous system" destruction by not training past the point of no longer being able to get another good rep. Taking less away from the body allows it to recuperate faster, meaning the overcompensation process (where strength and growth occurs) can conclude sooner and with consistency. Using excessive body english to reach absolute muscular failure (the point you can no longer budge a weight) creates great demand on the tendons, joints, and nervous system. 

If you wish to obtain both total bodypart mass and full-blown muscle-belly development, you will have to use a holistic rep-range with both compound and isolation exercises. Here is a good example of thinking too far out of the box and actually going against what works: Since chin-ups are a compound movement for the biceps they must be superior to curls. There are 2 reasons this kind of thinking is wrong. 1) The compound-isolation factor is different for arms than the legs and torso. Obviously, you are not adding any kind of leverage factor. Think about it, what are you compounding on a tricep extension or bicep curl? 2) A chin-up starts the biceps in a slack position because of the relative position of the elbow to the shoulder. It then moves the upper arm to another disadvantaged position because of the peak contracted nature of the chin-up. Because of these two factors myosin-actin pairings are not optimized. A standard curl works the biceps through the strongest highest leveraged contraction, thus making it a superior exercise for the biceps. This same scenario applies to dips and close grip bench press verses lying tricep extensions. Simply stated, curls and extensions (isolation exercise) are the absolute best mass builders for the arms. 


I’ve often asked myself, “Why some have the all or nothing attitude about compound verses isolation exercises?” What bodybuilder in their right mind would not want to use compound movements as a baseline and then throw in isolation exercises to target lagging areas? Bodybuilding is all about bringing up lagging body parts and building a balanced physique. If you've got lagging medial deltoids, why stubbornly avoid medial deltoid lateral raises? Most of us must do laterals after training the over-head presses because the compound movement won’t be enough to fully work the medial deltoids. It's not hard to balance the two so you can get the best of both worlds, but some people have a tendency to over think and complicate matters. 


YOU MENTIONED BEFORE, THAT REPS DONT MATTER....WE BELIEVE THEY DO......5-6 REPS IS JUST TO LOW FOR DC......WE DO OUR SET, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE, TAKE 15 BREATHS CONTINUE...SO INCLINE BENCH FOR EXAMPLE TYPICALLY LOOKS LIKE 10/3/2.....DEPENDING ON AGE, REP RANGES ARE 11-20 REPS REST PAUSED.........SKULL CRUSHERS FOR INSTANCE IS MORE LIKE 20-30 REPS REST PAUSES....RISKY EXERCSISES LIKE THIS, AND BICEPS, GET THE HIGHER REP RANGES ALSO

I do believe that it's more dangerous to rest-pause in the low rep-range than the higher rep-range. But, my tendon gave way using the higher rep-range you just described. I've seen knees blown out doing rest-pause with squats, pec tendon tears with chest exercises (moslty flat bench press but a few inclines) and rotator cuff tears from rest-pausing over head presses. Add forced reps and it only adds fuel to the fire.

The lower rep rest-pause training taught by Menzer will make you stronger than doing rest-pause in the higher rep-ranges. That said, power-lifters do not utilize rest-pause to gain strength because it's not as effective or safe as straight sets. So, I see no value in performing rest-pause for bodybuilding purposes seeing this is the case. 


REGARDING THE VERY FIRST COMMENT, I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE TEARING A MUSCLE FROM REST PAUSING DC STYLE BY FOLLOWING DANTE'S ADVICE TO THE TEA.....THATS WHAT I WAS GETTING AT....DANTE HAS BEEN PUTTING MUSCLE MASS ON PEOPLE SINCE THE EARLY 90'S.....TRUST ME, IF REST PAUSING FOR 11-15 REPS WAS RISKY, HE WOULD'NT BE ADVISING IT.......HE ADVISES IT, BECAUSE WITH HIS EXPERIENCE, AS LONG AS GUYS AVOID LOW REPS AND BARBELL FLAT BENCH PRESSING, GUYS ARE NOT TEARING ANYTHING

I agree with Dante on avoiding rest-pause with the flat press because it places a lot of stress on the pec tendon. Unfortunatley, many of these youth following the DC training system are hung up on the flat bench press and most will probably experience serious shoulder problems down the road. IMO using rest-pause for over-head presses is just about as bad as the flat bench press. And rest-pausing rows, deadlifts or squats is just asking for a lower back injury.

I think the big picture here is learning what it takes to create an effective progressive over-load (lift more weight) without getting injured and then taking those strength gains and proceeding forward to create a true progressive over-load without becoming injured and over-trained. I have learned that straight sets are far superior to any other training method. If you are always trying to produce a progressive over-load (lifting more weight) you will get stuck in no time. In addition, you've just skipped past one of the most important aspects of how to make additional gains -A true progressive over-load (increasing the volume).

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## IronReload04

> I saw Dorian Yates video. His workout is sort of low volume, but it isn't HIT. He does 2 to 4 sets of 2 or 3 exercises per body part. Or sometimes 1 set of many exercises. Plus some of his warm up sets are practically working sets.


2-3 warm ups and one work set

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> later on, I will do a more thouraough response, but i will go with just this for now
> 
> "I agree with Dante on avoiding rest-pause with the flat press because it places a lot of stress on the pec tendon. Unfortunatley, many of these youth following the DC training system are hung up on the flat bench press and most will probably experience serious shoulder problems down the road. IMO using rest-pause for over-head presses is just about as bad as the flat bench press. And rest-pausing rows, deadlifts or squats is just asking for a lower back injury.
> 
> I think the big picture here is learrning how to create a progressive over-load (lift more weight) without getting injured and then taking those strength gains and proceeding forward to create a true progressive over-load without becoming injured and over-trained. I have learned that straight sets are far superior. If you are always trying to produce a progressive over-load (lifting more weight) you will get stuck in no time. In addition, you've just skipped past one of the most important aspects of how to make additional gains -A true progressive over-load (increasing the volume). "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good to read DC has kept safety in mind!!! I believe his style of rest-pause training is more user friendly than Mike Mentzer's.

Lateral raises done right will hit the medial deltoids. Lateral raises done wrong will damage the rotator cuff and do little to build the side deltoids. 


Okay you just said DC training and comparable programs will create a progressive over-load. I agree to a certain point. But, where is the *TRUE PROGRESSIVE OVER-LOAD?* That's what I have been saying all along! It has been proven by years in the gym and by science that a certain amount of volume and repetitions are required to induce maximum muscle mass. Some bodybuilders claim you must constantly use low volume comingled with some form of extreme training (for i.e.; absolute gut bursting failure training, forced reps or rest-pause) to make continued improvements. The problem with such training is that you will hit a wall in no time and have no where else to turn. Think about it, if you’ve been using 400pounds on squats for a long time and never increase the volume, you’re no longer making progress!

Strength gains slow down for everyone as they advance. Elite powerlifters are not as big as elite bodybuilders, so bodybuilders should not become overly obsessed with using more weight each time they train. Every one of you who becomes a very advanced trainee will eventually reach a point where you simply can’t gain anymore strength without the risk of hurting yourself with very low reps (1-3). Remember, the muscles will eventually get stronger than the tendons and ligaments resulting in injury if you try and train as a power-lifter as opposed to a body-bodybuilder. This is normal and you shouldn’t beat yourself up over the fact. Your muscle can’t see how much weight is on the bar nor can they count reps. As long as you keep them off-balance by frequently stressing them with more volume, they will grow bigger regardless of whether you can use more weight or reps. This is because you’ve tricked the body through periodization by introducing a new form of training. 


You can use rest pause until you pass out from shear exhaustion and never create a true progressive over-load to the muscles because the CNS will become over-trained before the muscles fibers are fully taxed. You can create a certain degree of progressive over-load with rest pause, but it requires using straight sets to produce a true progressive over-load. 

On the other hand, you can use drop-sets until your joints are on fire, yet never create a progressive over-load, because of the light weight loads from excess lactic acid build-up. You can create a certain degree of true progressive over-load with drop sets, but it takes straight sets to produce a maximal progressive over-load.

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## moush

dam gread thread guys!

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## Ronnie Rowland

> dam gread thread guys!


moush, the funny thing is, this all started in your "STS Training Journal" where RuhlFreak said 10 sets was not enough volume. I want to know where he is hiding? Did he hit the nearest exit?  :Hmmmm: .....LOL.....

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> one thing i have to clear up....dc rest pausing is totally different than mikes.....for dc, we to a straight set of about 8-10.....rack it, take 15-20 breaths, bang out more reps until failure and repeat once more
> 
> 
> "[B]Okay you just said DC training and comparable programs will create a progressive over-load. I agree to a certain point. But, where is the TRUE PROGRESSIVE OVER-LOAD? That's what I have been saying all along! It has been proven by years in the gym and by science that a certain amount of volume and repetitions are required to induce maximum muscle mass. Some bodybuilders claim you must constantly use low volume comingled with some form of extreme training (for i.e.; absolute gut bursting failure training, forced reps or rest-pause) to make continued improvements. The problem with such training is that you will hit a wall in no time and have no where else to turn. Think about it, if you’ve been using 400pounds on squats for a long time and never increase the volume, you’re no longer making progress!"
> 
> 
> 
> the dc system is the most pogressive system i have ever seen.....so now that i explained the rest pause......the log book is the most important part of the dc system.....lets say for incline bench, i get 11/4/2=17 reps rest paused....when next time rolls around, you either add 5-10 pounds and get 17 reps rest paused, or you do the same weight and get 19 reps rest paused......not making progress is not an option.....its do or die, you add weight and tie or beat reps rest paused from previous time, or you use the same weight and get 2 more reps to your total than you got last time........We are constantly exposing our muscles to heavier weight, or the same weight for more reps............you say you cant make progress every single time.......well this is not true with dc......the rest pause is set up, because it creates oppertunity, where beating what you got last time is realistic.......you beat what you got last time 20 times in a row, and you are going to be moving up in weight extremely damn fast.......bigger weights directly or indirectly will lead to larger muscle mass
> 
> ...



IronReload, I would like to commend you for discussing this material in a mature and calm manner. All too often people get their cage rattled during a debate and it turns ugly. Intense Muscle is most fortunate to have you as their spoke person. I'll comment to your quotes in red.

*We are constantly exposing our muscles to heavier weight, or the same weight for more reps............you say you cant make progress every single time.......well this is not true with dc......the rest pause is set up, because it creates oppertunity, where beating what you got last time is realistic.......you beat what you got last time 20 times in a row, and you are going to be moving up in weight extremely damn fast.......bigger weights directly or indirectly will lead to larger muscle mass*


*Okay let's say for arguments sake that you could beat the log book 20 times in a row by creating a "progressive overload". What follows when you reach a stregnth plateau after having followed the DC blast and cruise cyles on a long term basis? You cannot keep gaining strength forever. You know you can't! And there's certainly nothing magical about rest-pause training to gain strength, especially when it's done in the higher rep range. Power-lifting fundamentals with straight sets are superior to any form of rest-pause training for strength gains. The 5x5 program is a prime example. I do not understand the value in doing rest-pause. Dorian Yates quit using beyond failure training because it put a hurting on him. 

I am of the opinion it's the design of DOGGCRAPP'S training split that allows trainees to gain strength at a fast pace and it has nothing to do with rest-pause!! Why do I believe this? It's because I experiemented with rest-pause training and various splits in the past. If you take a close look at my 3 day per week STS and compare it to the 3 day per week DC training system, you will soon notice they are almost identical!!!!!!! Later in this thread, I'll post the 3 day per week STS beside the 3 day per week DC in order for you to see the uncanny similarities. What I am trying to say here is Dante came up with a "grand" training split. This helps tremendously in being able to gain more strength. I'm willing to bet you could take the DC training split, replace the rest-pause with straight sets, periodize it properly and not only make more gains in strength, but make more gains is size. Don't believe me? Try it! 

How do you create a true progressive over-load by always doing 2 sets per week. I have yet to hear you talk about a true progressive over-load? 


**a. we hammer out an exercise, we bury it until we cant make any more progress.....if we go 2 weeks in a row without making progress, we drop that exercise and replace it with something else.....and hammer that one out......eventually, we will stall on that one, so here, we replace it with another new exercise, or we can go back to the original one........if we go back to the original one, what will happen is, we will start off slightly weaker than where we left off........but in no time, we are greatly surpassing where we left off, and the cycle repeats*


*you say progress cant go on forever......I absolutely agree........We do 2 things to combad plateuing...
a. we hammer out an exercise, we bury it until we cant make any more progress.....if we go 2 weeks in a row without making progress, we drop that exercise and replace it with something else.....and hammer that one out......eventually, we will stall on that one, so here, we replace it with another new exercise, or we can go back to the original one........if we go back to the original one, what will happen is, we will start off slightly weaker than where we left off........but in no time, we are greatly surpassing where we left off, and the cycle repeats*



*Adaptations that take place over time simply mean that the structural adaptations to your training regimen have already been decided. At this point, your body will be adapted to the training you have been using and you can no longer gain strength due to adaptation from doing the same amount of volume over and over again. This has nothing to do with the exercise itself! At the point of adaptation, some bodybuilders think their body has adapted to the exercises-hence their neural pathways are getting burned out. This is bad science. This is I am firm believer in the PRIME-BLAST-CRUISE method (Slingshot Periodization).

Upon first starting a new exercise, your strength can sky rocket due to improved "neural pathways", not because of additional muscle strength or fiber recruitment pattern regeneration. What’s happening is strength gains are being made because you’re switching over to a new exercise. This has to do with increased neural efficiency at performing a new exercise. 

Switching over to a new exercise and making rapid strength gains for a brief period of time is not the same thing as making additional strength gains. The thing to remember here is that you ccan also be weaker when you return back to the original exercise because you will have lost your groove. However, if you do make a noticeable amount of progress in strength-size over an extended period of time using the new exercise, expect to come back and be able to exceed the amount of weight load you could lift with the original exercise that was used prior to switching to the new exercise. Again, this forward progress has nothing to do with exercise rotation, but progress itself. 

I hope this helps!
*

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## Ronnie Rowland

> when is this gonna be 2 pages lol
> 
> this is the longest 1 page ever it seems
> 
> 
> its good stuff though, gotta keep it going


I'm still with you. WE JUST HIT PAGE 2  :1welcome:

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> i gotta say, its nice doing it here rather than bb.com
> 
> 
> if it was bb.com, it would be world war 3


I visited bodybuiLding.com today and guess what I saw. Scroll down to page 3 on this link http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5358063

A lot of highschool kids over there. I often wonder how I would have acted back then if I had had access to the internet..LOL

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## Ronnie Rowland

> ya, and i do acknowledge that........I know their is such a vast amount of information in this thread.....i did say once before that strength gains can directly or indirectly grow muscle mass....
> 
> 
> I will explain what I mean........I absolutely agree, that alot of times, strength gains are nueroligical.......and lifting heavier doesnt mean you have new muscle mass, but chances are good that you might.
> But the whole point with dc, is, that training with heavier weights, will eventually, in the long run, lead to a larger you, a larger body......its not so much making the gain thats growing the muscle (it very well could be, but not always), but its handling the heavier weight over time......
> 
> so, lets say my strength increases on incline bench by 20 pounds......its possible that it could be all nuerological......but 3 months down the road, "simply" handling that weight compared to what i used to be handling, with the right food intake, will produce a larger human being...
> 
> 5 years from now, if i can inlcine bench 100 pounds more than I can now, believe me, thats a first class growth stimulis.....
> ...


I totally agree with Dante in that handling heavier weights over time plays a big factor. That's called a *progressive over-load*. But what about a *true progressive over-load*-increasing the volume to create gains as well? 

Increases in muscle size can also be forth coming by simply adding volume, not just increasing the amount of weight one lifts. Why not combine both of these factors like I have done with the *STS* and get the best of both worlds?

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## Ronnie Rowland

Originally Posted by IronReload04 

an idea of dante is


"he has never seen someone who could incline bench 405 for reps, squat ass to grass 600 for reps, deadlift 600 for reps who was small"

absolute strength is not correlated with muscle size......but in perfect form, "STRENGTH PROGRESSION" is highly correlated with muscle growth with the proper food intake....since we are constantly getting stronger, we are contsantly feeding ourselves a stimulus to be larger.....perfect form, powerbuilding form mind you, not powerlifting form

this is the very nature of "our" progressive overload

I agree that someone who can incline press 405 for reps is not going to have a small chest. But, I have seen people who could bench 405 for reps that simply could not get a massive chest until they added flyes to their program. What do you do in those instances since you are limited to 1 exercise?

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## K.Biz

damn this is a good thread

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> ahhh ha
> 
> ok, i didnt catch the difference between progressive vs true overload......didnt know true overload was a term, so i take it true means volume.
> 
> 
> 
> the thinking by dc is this.....you cannot progress infinately with volume, somewhere down the lines, you will get deminishing returns because you can only do so many sets........strength on the otherhand, infinite progress can be made....that is, their is no point where you will start getting diminishing returns



Training has to do with adaptation. *ALL 3*- Volume, Intensity and Strength have it's limitations. For e.g.; If you perform 1 intense set of heavy barbell curls twice a week, the neural pathways will eventually adjust themselves by getting stronger so they can handle an even heavier weight load next time you train. Yes, the biceps will get stronger, but not necessarily a lot bigger. *Stay with me here!* When you take advantage of the added strength gains made by using less volume and then co-mingling those added strength gains with additional training volume while not over-training, you can be assured you will grow bigger muscles! That is how you create a true progressive overload! You can use all the fancy beyond failure training methods such as drop sets and rest-pause for hours on end and never create a true progressive overload because limitless adaptation equals a heavier workload in conjunction with additional volume to breakdown down more muscle tissue, while never going past the point of diminishing returns. 

I do not agree with DC about strength being infinite. Strength gains cannot be defined as infinite because strength gains will eventually slow down and possibly stop altogether. If strength gains were indeed infininte then we could all bench press 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, pounds plus and thats just not how it works. When a bodybuilder can bench press 400 pounds for 2 sets then incorporate periods where they do 5 sets does it mean they are not making progress in building muscle mass because they are stuck at 400 pounds? Of course not because they have added more sets to cause trauma to the tissue during the appropriate times. I call this Slingshot Periodization!! At this point caloric intake becomes a large factor as does the "anabolic priming phase" in order to make the muscles more sensitive to the volume previously used during the last "anabolic blasting phase"!!!!! 

I agree with DC that you cannot progress infinetly with volume. I made that clear in the first post of this thread. But, how can he say 2 sets is the cut off point? I feel I made a good case as to why 10 sets is that cut off point. Basically, it has to do with the fact a muscle quits firing with efficiency after doing about 10 work sets.

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> o sling shot, by the way, i started dc back up today......it was planned.....so it was really just ironic that this thread started a couple days ago wow.....
> 
> 
> so, damn, i forgot how intense this programs is.....havnt done it in 6 months.......The rest pause is extremely taxing.....its more taxing, far more taxing, than 2 straight sets with 2 forced reps.....i was breathing like a locomotive the whole time too.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another huge huge benefit for me...with dc, is that i can do cardio 4 days a week, every other day, to stay lean.....huge huge plus......and the metabolic increases that come from lifting heavy, and involving large portions of the body, are really huge.......I feel like I am in love lol
> ...


LOL...It does not take many rest-paused sets before you feel taxed.

You hit the nail on the head when you said heavy lifting increases one's metabolic rate. Sonny brought up a very good point in one of the cardio thread were he stated HIT or HIIT cardio will in fact burn more bodyfat 24 hours post training in comparison to low/moderate intensity cardio. 


Here's my question to you-why would you want to become a cardio monkey during an entire mass phase when you could spend more time and energy during a designted (4 weeks) to really blast the muscles and make them grow? Not to mention you drastically increase sarcopalsmic growth which makes up roughly 30% of your muscle size!!! 

When my trainees are using the STS properly they don't have the extra energy to waste on cardio during the 4 week anabolic blast because they need it for recovery. Only during the "anabolic cruise" and the "anabolic prime" is training volume lowered enough were one can benefit by adding cardio. And even though the training volume will be lowered after the "anabolic blast", sarcoplasmic growth will be maintained until the next blasting phase because you're never taking a complete lay-off unless injured or on vacation. 

Does that make sense?

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## Drive

interesting chat were having

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

[QUOTE=IronReload04;3691927]ahhh ha

ok, i didnt catch the difference between progressive vs true overload......didnt know true overload was a term, so i take it true means volume.


A *progressive over-load* and a *true progressive over-load* are not one in the same. Creating a progressive over-load is brought forth by being able to lift more weight using the same form, amount of work sets, and rest periods between sets. A true progressive over-load (a phrase I coined) is also brought forth when you can lift more weight using the same form, and rest periods between sets, but the amount of work sets performed must be greater than whats required to produce a progressive over-load!

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## Ronnie Rowland

[QUOTE=IronReload04;3692175]ok


1. I believe what you are saying makes sense.......Its a logical idea and principle.....I believe it may work very well.......as far as volume...on the other hand...Let me ask you this though......if you can bench press 405 for 2 sets, does doing 5 sets with 405 cause a reason to be bigger? Why do you need to be bigger, to do 5 sets instead of 2? wierd as this may sound, I am thinking of a caveman.......if he can already press a boulder for instance 10 times for 2 sets.......what kind of adaptions are really taking place to allow him to do it for 3 additional sets........might it have something to do with endurance? My argument is that, in order for him to push a much larger boulder, he needs to be bigger to be able to do it.....or doing it will make him bigger.........perhaps your way, as well as mine, will do the trick...after all, their is multiple ways to skin a cat.


*The fastest way to making the muscles hypertrophy are combining the 2 basic principles below.* 

1) Gaining strength! Obviously, we clearly agree on this point. This is the basis of DOGGCRAPP TRAINING. A very good concept! 

2) Increasing volume through periodization in order to cause more trauma to muscle tissue. The STS and DC training principles become divided in this area. 

Note: Elite powerlifters follow periodization with straight sets to peak out their strength and size gains. 




Very low volume or very high volume is always a bad idea during a mass phase. I feel a lot of bodybuilders miss the boat by trying to find what they consider the perfect amount of training volume their bodies can recover from and then they stick to it indefinitely. They mistakenly believe that any work performed over that limit will take away from their recovery abilities and decrease their muscle mass. They also believe that any work done below that perfect threshold won’t break down enough muscle tissue to stimulate growth. 

The logic behind their thinking is to use the perfect training volume required to stimulate muscle growth so they can stick with it indefinitely and always fully recover. What these individuals fail to realize is that the body will become over-trained by using the same routine for a prolonged period regardless of the amount of volume used! This is why periodically increasing the volume actually prevents over-training through over-adaptation. That’s right, frequent bouts of more training equal’s enhanced recovery and strength not the other way around. Obviously muscle endurance does come into play ! 


When many bodybuilders hit a plateau, what do they do? They begin to push even harder by adding more intensity or exercises to their routine. This kind of thinking is wrong because a muscle has to be exposed to something it is not used to doing without over-training the nervous system and joints. Adding additional exercises or trying to use beyond failure techniques is widely accepted for producing frustrated bodybuilders! 

It’s no secret that progressively adding more weight to every lift is a sure-fire way to increase total lean body mass, given the diet, training volume, and exercise selection is spot on. This is precisely what the Slingshot Training System will do.

Almost everyone starts out using low volume. They grow at a phenomenal rate until the body adapts and quits responding. Because some feel the gains were so great using the lower volume approach, they begin to try and lift heavier weights while using the same program for extended periods of time. They put continued pressure on themselves to try to beat personal records each training session in hopes it will somehow further their muscle mass. Eventually these people end up with chronic injuries and/or stagnation as a result.

*Now check this out!* The intelligent trainer’s switch-over to using more volume, while the less fortunate keep thinking less is always more! However, the next mistake comes into play by the trainees who have switched over to using the higher volume approach. Many bodybuilders become so overwhelmed with their newly found muscle mass after having increased the volume that they begin to reason with themselves thinking more must always be done from that point on. They quickly hit a point of diminishing returns and eventually develop over-use injuries and an over-trained nervous system, instead of reverting back to using a lower amount of volume that worked so well at the beginning. 

Sometimes their training will take the form of more sets-reps, exercises, intensity, training session, etc. Some are in constant search for the latest routines that will shock their muscles even further. However, all this does is hold them back even more because no one can overcome diminishing returns or keep using the same routine for extended periods of time and expect to make maximal gains!

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## Ronnie Rowland

> damn this is a good thread


It just keeps getting better! :1welcome:

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## Ronnie Rowland

> interesting chat were having


Interesting to say the least.

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## Ronnie Rowland

....

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## Ronnie Rowland

> ok
> 
> 2. as far as infinity goes......think of it in the other direction.....think of 2 points, and stand on one of them......go half way to the other point, then do it again, and again, and again.......if you go half way to the next point every time, you can never get to the other point......so it can be said that you can go half way to the next point an infinite amount of times.........thinking of strength this way, it really is infinite......now just think of it as a really really really big distance, a distance so big, that 99 percent of people never get to the point where going half way yields no noticable difference....progress slows, but it never stops.........its my belief that anyone who is not elite, can make progress very rapidly. alot of people, normal jo's in the gym, stall because they are undereating and not doing a thought out logical routine.


I totaly agree about people stalling due not following logical training/dieting principles.

Okay,I can make the same arguments for volume and intensity as you are making about strength. In short, there are limitations in-

1) How fast you can progress in gaining strength

2) How much intensity you can use while avoiding over-training

3) How many sets you can perform without hitting a point of diminishing returns. 

Note: I have learned that the key to maxing out one's full-genetic potential as a bodybuilder is creating a perfect balance between all 3 (Volume/Strength/Intensity). 


Which training approach do you believe is going to yield the fastest gains in strength? In other words which training sytle below is the absolute best way to reach point B to point A in the shortest amount of time?

1) A rest paused set in the high rep range?

2) A straight set in the lower rep range? 



Obviously it's not a good idea to keep adding sets forever. If there were a perfect linear relationship between the number of sets used each workout and the muscle gains made, then adding both size and strength would simply come about by increasing the number of sets and we know this won't work with maximum efficiency. 

On the other hand, if there were a perfect linear relationship between strength increases and the msucle gains made, then adding both size and strength would simply come about by increasing one's strength and we know this won't work with maximum efficiency.

*Here's what I have learned*- You can't just keep gaining strength at a rapid pace or continue adding more sets or intensity to grow indefintely. 10 work sets per muscle group will work better than 2 for a time, but it doesn't follow that 20 sets will work better than 10. In addition, it does not mean 10 sets will always work better than 2 sets because a de-load is in order for making maximum progress to continue.

Current research tells me that a moderate volume training approach like the one used with the *STS* increases strength better than either a high volume (for i.e.; 20 sets) or a low volume ( for i.e.; 2 sets). I am of the belief that there is indeed an optimal training volume to be used with straight sets during specific training phases. Deviating very far below or above has compromised gains in both strength and size for those I have trained.

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## Ronnie Rowland

> ok
> 
> 3. dante himself never said anything about cut off points.....that was me......i just said that was my sweet spot for strength gains, but who is to say its not 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or whatever


Wouldn't 4 sets or more of rest-pause cause serious over-training? The DC training method I have read about is 1 rest-paused set twice every 8 days.

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## Ronnie Rowland

> o sling shot, by the way, i started dc back up today......it was planned.....so it was really just ironic that this thread started a couple days ago wow.....
> 
> 
> so, damn, i forgot how intense this programs is.....havnt done it in 6 months.......The rest pause is extremely taxing.....its more taxing, far more taxing, than 2 straight sets with 2 forced reps.....i was breathing like a locomotive the whole time too.....



IronReload what you just described sounds more like cardio conditioning that gaining strength. 

I find rest-pause is comparable to laying cement block. pick up 2-20 pound block. Walk it 10 ft and lay it down. Repeat 20 times. Take 15 seconds to get back to the pile of blocks. 


How can you expect to generate a high rate of torque while at the end of a rest-pause set? Would'nt it be better to avoid this type of fatigue when lifting weights. Too me rest-pause done in the higher rep range is a beyond failure technique like drop sets designed to cause hypertrophy through accumulative fatigue not making maximum strength gains.

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

I now understand why he calls himself Ironreload. When he runs out of ammo he simply re-loads...LOL


I wanted to make it clear to the everyone that IronReload and I are in no way arguing. We are simply presenting our views about each variable. This might just be the comparison of all time between low vs moderate volume training when we are finished.

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## moush

this is a great read! 

especially since i have done Doggcrapp before with some success and now I am using STS

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## Ronnie Rowland

> its goes like this, and I will use chest as an example
> 
> monday- incline bench- i set rest paused
> 
> friday- dumbell bench- 1 set rest paused
> 
> wednesday- 15 deg smith bench- 1 set rest paused
> 
> 
> ...


I believe the more you do the above scenario the more strength gains will slow down until finally plateauing and no longer being able to gain. 

Now take a very close look at the 3 day per week STS below. You'll notice the 3 day per STS is based on the "EXACT" same principle as DC training (getting progressively stronger). They're lay-out is very similar. Probably more so that any other training systems out there! 

The STS involves a 2 exercise rotation as opposed to 3 rotation like DC. I did this because I feel it allows more specific adaptions to occur. I think you can build more muscle and strength by always using the 2 most productive exercises per body part as opposed to spending time on less effective movements. 

I also added a higher volume phase to induce more growth. I feel the DC blast could be compared to the STS anabolic cruise (gaining more strength and some size). I feel the DC cruise could be compared to the STS anabolic prime (taking a recovery period). I do not see anything in the DC program that compares to the STS blasting phase (mass and then strength as opposed to strength and then mass like the cruise). 


Heres a summary of the (3 day per week) STS-"Single-Shot" Slingshot Training System

There are 3 phases to each cycle:

1. Prime: 2 weeks 1 set per body part, low volume 
2. Blast: 4 weeks 4 sets per body part, high volume
3. Cruise: 2 weeks 2 sets per body part, moderate volume 

During each phase organize your workouts as follows:

A. 
Chest
Shoulders
Triceps
Back width
Biceps 
Brachialis

B.
Calves
Lat thickness
Traps
Quads
Hams
Abs

Alternate workouts as follows:

Monday: A
Wednesday: B
Friday: A
Monday: B

Choose 1 key (or primary) compound exercise and 1 secondary (compound or isolation) exercise for each muscle group. Then take those exercises and rotate them using only 1 per workout so that the above rotation looks like this:

Monday: A Key 
Wednesday: B Key
Friday: A Secondary 
Monday: B Secondary
Wednesday A Key 
Friday B Key 

REPS- Unless otherwise stated all reps are performed to "good failure" i.e. 
the point at which no further reps are possible in good form

SETS Do up to 3 warm up sets and then perform your work sets as follows (with the exception of abs/brachialis/traps and hams which only require 1 set)

1. PRIME- Key exercises are performed only 
1 set 12-15 reps 

2. BLAST 
i) Key 
1st set- 6-8 rep 1 rep short of good failure
2nd set 4-6 reps 
3rd set 6-8 reps 
4th set 12-15 reps 
ii) Secondary
1st set- 12-15 reps 
2nd set 8-10 reps 
3rd set 8-10 reps 
4th set 4-6 (or 6-8 reps if isolation exercise) 

3. CRUISE- effectively 1st and 2nd sets of BLAST
i) Key 
1st set 6-8 reps 1 rep short of good failure
2nd set 4-6 reps 
ii) Secondary 
1st set 12-15 reps 
2nd set 8-10 reps


So my question is- how do you "BLAST" with low volume?

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## Ronnie Rowland

> ya......makes sense....from a different perspective, this is why i like being a cardio bunny
> 
> 1. hunger- it drives hunger even more
> 2. I believe it gets the digestive system running smoothly, and on all cylynders
> 3. blood flow, recovery, sweats out toxins
> 4. increases food intake....increased food intake raises metabolism
> 5. allows us to eat like 300 pounders, but curbs bodyfat gain in doing the process
> 
> this is my favorite thing dante has ever said, well i put together a couple of them
> ...


1) I think the heat is caused by eating 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight.

2) More weight training volume also increased appetite, sweat, blood flow, revs up the metabolism, etc.

3) Some 300 lbers don't eat as much as a lot of 180 lbers. 

Don't you think the body would eventually adapt to aerobics if not given a break?

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## moush

i used to be a cardio bunny i did it for almost 2 yrs straight and this is the first time ive taken off from cardio (its been 3 weeks so far without cardio, i have one week left) and i gotta say i still feel great, i dont feel "heavy". Once the cruise phase comes ill do cardio 3 times a week for 45-60 min.

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

one more thing to add

from the dc/low volume perspective

if you gain strength, but fail to gain size over time....it has been said that the person has not eaten enough food, and thats where the problem lies....with proper food intake, size will always come

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## Ronnie Rowland

> ok....couple things.....I was reading on im.com.........about whats taking place with gains on dc........a big idea is that we rotate our exercises.......this is supposed to, to a degree, prevent neural adaption....so any increase in strength should be direct result of muscle mass.....It was stated by a higher up, that some people dont do very well when they use the same exercise every single time.....because they dont make nueral adaptions very well......."this program is great for those people"
> 
> Now me, i make nueral adaptions very well, probably why i was doing so well with what i was doing this summer-fall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from our perspective, how do we blast?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure exaclty why strength gains alone would always equate to more size gains in low volume training and not for everyone? For instance some strength coaches.

I would still choose only 2 exercises as opposed to 3. It is too long before you hit the first exersice again. I don't think you can make the kind of progress most bodybuilders would want with a 3 way rotation. You said yourself that you made great gains using fewer exercises. It's because the body needs some repetitive motion . You cannot get as much out of an exercise with infrequency. Adaptation is what causes muscle growth!!

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> ya, and I believe that up to a point....its kind of like not writing anything for a week....when you pick up a pen a week later, you feel retarded..
> 
> 
> but with weights, if the body never catches on to an exercise, and doesnt allow nueral adaption to go through the roof, I think its possible that this can be more conducive to mass gains.....so, if your not letting neural adaption occur, and you are making strength gains..........would'nt that mean this is muscle mass gains that are lifting more weight????
> 
> 
> 
> main point of post
> 
> so, if your not letting neural adaption occur, and you are making strength gains..........would'nt that mean this is muscle mass gains that are lifting more weight????


I am not discounting at all that you can make gains that way or even that its a bad way to train. I just think it's best to use only 2 exercises with more frequency because progressive overload is a tried and true fact. Meaning you adapt to the exercises and increase work load capacity over time. Not to mention that as you log your training you can track progress. 

Here's a good example how progress is made using the 3 day per week *STS*. Many of my trainees use the 15 degree decline bench press as their "key exercise". Come next chest training session they use the 15 degree incline press as a "secondary exercise". Due to the fact they keep going back to their key exercise (decline press) every other chest workout they find that they are ahead of where they left off and they begin making fresh progress.

Part of this progress is due to the fact that they are working different secondary and supportive muscles with the secondary exercise (incline presses) as they get stronger. They find that it helps their key exercise (decline press) thus making it possible to lift heavier and the cycle of growth begins a new. *It's basic power-lifting fundamentals!*

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## Ronnie Rowland

> one more thing i wanted to add
> 
> I absolutely promise you, that dc rest pausing is more taxing than 2 straight sets to failure with 2 forced reps......Here is why i think so
> 
> 
> 
> ok, what i was doing before for shoulders for instance, was this, my workout
> 
> set 1- b.b. military press- 6 reps, help on 7 and 8
> ...


What you just described is another reason I am not a big fan of rest pause. Simply stated, you are doing 3 mini-sets in 1 long set but it's not the same as 3 straight sets performed with plenty of rest between sets.

*Follow me closely here!* Who do you think would make the most gains; a guy who performs dead-lifts with 4 sets of 10 reps using 400 lbs or a guy who does 1 triple drop set using 400 lbs, 350 lbs, 300 lbs and finally 270 lbs? The obvious answer is the guy who used more weight on all 4 sets for teh dead-lift. Why? Because straight sets allows you the power to lift a greater weight-load range. 

With beyond failure techniques such as reat-pause and drop sets, you’re basically breaking down less muscle tissue yet annihilating the nervous system and joints. With each subsequent set you are using fewer reps with the same amount of weight. A rest-paused set done in the 8-12 rep range cannot possibly create the same kind of strength gains that are obtained by using a straight set for 4-6 reps simply because you cannot lift heavy when training near the point of non-stop. 

How can low volume advocates get around this scenario?

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## Ronnie Rowland

> not to be confused with weider confusion principals........we are cycling and keeping track of strength doing each exercise once every 2 weeks... , so we are not using the principle of completely doing something different each and every time......


I certainly understand and agree with *DC Training* that changing exercises in order to confuse the muscles and make them grow does not work as described. 

*Slingshot Training* confuses the muscles by simply loading and de-loading with straight sets all while using the same 2 exercises over and over again.

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> a. the guy who does 4 sets with the largest amount of weight will absolutely make the most strength gains.........but thats not the argument........deadlifts are not rest paused with us, they get 2 straight sets, so for the sake of argument, lets use chest as an example, because i think i see what you are trying to get at, and for this argument, deads are not a good example...



1) Dead-lifts and squats are considered two of the best exercises for building over-all strength and size. I do not think DC will dispute this fact. And I realize the reason *DC Training* does not rest-pause these 2 exercises (dead-lifts and squats) is because it can cause injury to the back. If you think about it, this sides with my side of the argument in that rest-pause training is not user friendly. The way I see it, all compound movements should be treated the same. For instance, *Slingshot Training* takes into consideration that the shoulders are one of the most vulnerable joints in the body. More bodybuilders experience shoulder problems than other body part. Why not give over-head presses and chest presses 2 straight sets as welll since this area can be injured just as easily if not easier than the back? I feel this is a very good question!

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## Ronnie Rowland

> one more thing to add
> 
> from the dc/low volume perspective
> 
> if you gain strength, but fail to gain size over time....it has been said that the person has not eaten enough food, and thats where the problem lies....with proper food intake, size will always come


While that may be true, why is it that everyone (both male and female) I have trained or trained with have been able to gain more muscle mass doing 6 intense work sets each week as opposed to 1 intense work set a week? 

Could it be that combining more volume with the extra calories and increased strength gains is what causes maximum growth? After all, I'm talking about maximum growth not just making some gains.


*We just hit page 3!*

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> a. 
> 
> b.
> -man, i really gotta find that article......but i will just talk from memory for now........when you do a set, the muscle fibers that are used kind of rotate around for most of the set........they are not all contracting, but kind of skipping around and in clusters.....now when you get close to failure, the type 2's start coming into play, and all of them contract together......so the majority of the set is some what useless to building muscle mass...its the end of the set when the type 2's start contracting and working together.....its damaging these muscle fibers that cause muscle growth......now by rest pausing, because of the minimal rest, for the second 2 mini sets, its all type 2's that are lifting the weight......so by rest pausing, you are kind of bypassing unneccisary work.......by rest pausing on the last 2 mini sets, you are placing the entire work load on the muscle fibers that have the greatest potential for hyper trophy.........the other muscle fibers that work during the first part of the first mini set, dont have much potential at all for hyper trophy....
> 
> so that is another reason behind all this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we part compay in our beliefs regarding how the type 2 fibers are best stimulated. If I understand you correctly you are saying the type 2 fibers are not used much at all in a standard straight set and it's the rest-paused sets (mini-sets) that stimulate these fibers to grow. Correct?????

Here's what I have learned. The *strongest* not the *weakest* fibers like you are saying will come into play until the muscle reaches exhaustion. After the the strongest fibers of a particular muscle group fatigue, they begin to fire less while the weaker dormant fibers begin taking over and fire more! 

A good example is how these large muscled boxers will always tire out faster than an opponent with smaller muscles because the larger fibers burn more oxygen. The concept behind *Slingshot Training* is to totally exhaust the strongest regions of the muscle with a key movement in order to open up the gateway to stimulate the dormant fibers located in lagging areas of a muscle group with a secondary exercise. Meaning you work the type-2 fibers in the strongest region of a muscle group with a key exercise and proceed to work the type-2 fibers of the lagging areas within that muscle group with a secondary exercise.

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> our beliefs regarding how the type 2 fibers are best stimulated. If I understand you correctly you are saying the type 2 fibers are not used much at all in a standard straight set and it's the rest-paused sets (mini-sets) that stimulate these fibers to grow. Correct?????
> 
> 
> sort of.....from this article i read a while back, which i think i am remembering correctly.....the type 2's come into play as you approach failure (failure of any set, straight or whichever)......so on the last 2 mini sets, you get directly to using the type 2's.......where other muscle fibers, which do not have much potential for growth are most active at the beginning of the set (first mini), and are kind of circulating around taking turns being used....so the rest pause is brief, and hits the type 2's really freaking hard......which is why, I believe i had to go down in dumbells when going from chest to delts in dc, as opposed to doing 1 set of barbell mil in then going to dumbells in my old program


We agree in that muscle fibers are recruited for heavy loads in order from slowest to fastest! This means that if you are lifting heavy loads and are stimulating your type-2 fibers (fast twitch), then you have already stimulated your slow twitch fibers to the maximum. 

The advantage of performing additonal sets or higher reps is to increase sarcoplasmic growth (about 30% of total muscle size). How do you obtain that extra 30% with such low volume?

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## Ronnie Rowland

> so think about it.....if you do 4 sets to failure, according to that article, which i am trying to find, you are taxing your type 2's 4 times
> 
> 
> now in opposition, with dc, you are taxing them 3 times.......but less recovery time in between the sets, raises the intensity, and absolutely bombs these fibers, I think more so than straight sets with much recovery time.......and I will go back to my dumbell military press ex to back up why i have that opinion.....
> 
> 
> 
> so whats going to happen is, these type 2's are going to adapt to be able to handle this weight for longer periods of time (more reps), or handle more weight for the same reps.......why i think dc strength gains are directly muscle gains


When utilizing the *STS*, we tax the type-2 fibers a whopping 10 times for each major muscle group! After each subsequent set that follows the first work set, the type-1 fibers tire out earlier and earlier in the set and the type 2 fibers take over the load for longer periods of time. By the time we have done only 3 intense sets of an exercise, the endurance fibers are shutting down very early in the set and it's mostly the type-2 fibers lifting the weight. It would take a lot of sets using rest-pause training to mimic the type-2 fiber stimulation caused by doing multiple straight sets. 

The type-2 fibers must be made to adapt to lift more weight for longer periods of time in order to grow larger. What's the basic training rule that 99% of all professional bodybuilders have used to get massive is size? Simple, they pump up the muscles with multiple straight sets because the have found by years of experience in the gym it's the most efective way to make the type-2 fibers hypertrophy and fully stimulate the type-1 fibers.

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> so we are going to failure 3 times right, and you 4......do you think that the reps not close to failure contribute to sarcoplasm? I believe that going to failure 3 times is enough for sarcoplamsic growth....where you go to failure 4 times, but the part of your sets where you are not near failure; are they really contributing anything to sarcoplasmic growth
> 
> 
> 
> Thus, HST and DC both implement progressive loads at a fairly frequent rate. However, DC also introduces progressive fatigue and starts at a much higher fatiguing level than HST's 15s. 
> 
> Bryan brings up that failure can drop your strength levels up to a week, but I feel it's in large part due to how much sarcomere disruption you experience from your workout. In other words, if you went straight into DC training after a 14-day layoff, the microtrauma from the training would be significant enough that your strength levels would plummet. Had you gone into DC training at a lighter load or say after a few weeks of moderate training, then your strength levels would only decline steadily..
> 
> Thus we can say that, for the average trainee, classic HST and DC provide about 4-6 weeks of sarcomere-responsive progressive load (I'll assume 15s do nothing for sarcomere hypertrophy as a worst-case scenario.) 
> ...


Okay let me comment on a couple of things as this is a lengthy post.

*1)* Every intense work set (even the first one) contributes to sacroplasmic growth. Also, it's not 4 times to failure with the *STS* but 10 times when using the 5 day split based routine. I tell everyone up front that the 5 day per week split based routine is needed to max out ones genetic potential. It's impossible to cram enough work into a 3 day per week split based routine to max out ones genetic potential. Trying to do so would cause severe over-training.


*2)* The four biggest problems I see with *HST* are as follows:

a. Too many body parts being trained in one session.

b. Training legs at the beginning of the workout which kills the CNS right from the get-go. 

c Lack of volume and exercises.

d. The work sets are spread out instead of done all at once. HST is based on doing 2 sets 3 times a week as opposed to doing all 6 sets at once. This means the type-2 muscle fibers are not going to get nailed using *HST* like they do with the *STS*. *To recap:*  After each subsequent set that follows the first work set, the type-1 fibers tire out earlier and earlier in the set and the type 2 fibers (fibers responsible for most muscle size-strength) take over the load for longer periods of time. By the time you have done only 3 intense sets of an exercise, the endurance fibers are shutting down very early in the set and it's mostly the type-2 fibers lifting the weight. Notice the HST never gets that far! The type-2 fibers must be made to adapt to lift more weight for longer periods of time in order to grow larger. This is why training each bodypart only once a week will produce the most size gains with the least amount of effort.

*3)*  Extreme stretching is only a theory. There's no possible way it can give you the results of doing actual repetitions with weights. Isolation exercises are much better for devleoping mass than any form of stretching. Can you imagine Arnold getting such a massive chest doing extreme stretching as opposed to flat flyes??? Absolutey not!!! With a lot of money on the line in endorsements, do you honestly think professional bodybuilders would waste their time doing  worthless isolation exercises  or additional sets using compound movements over extreme stretching if they weren't more effective? 

Isolation exercises and most compound movements can be considered stretch position exercises and should be utilized for each body part when applicable to assure the highest release of Mechano Growth Factors, Prostaglandins, and Growth Hormone /I-GF1. These exercises result in a "controlled stretch" not "extreme stretch" of the target muscle at the end of the negative phase of each repetition when performed properly. A full stretch and contraction keeps the resistance on the "muscle bellies" and the end result will be more "muscle growth". 

Extreme stretching has been known to damage the anterior capsule of the shoulder and the rotator cuffs because the shoulder wasn’t designed to stay in that position for long periods of time. I think there's a good reason extreme stretching got the reputation of being the devil.

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## Ronnie Rowland

> just because these guys have steller genetics in terms of reation to drugs, and for muscle mass, doesnt mean they have a clue
> 
> ie paul dillet
> flex wheeler
> 
> 
> at any rate, the way you describe type 2's and the fourth set, sounds like a huge plus for volume techiniques


There's a lot of good to be said about volume training done right. Look at what it has done for elite bodybuilders. It's the obsessive-compulsive high volume trainers that have given it a bad name and the same goes for the obsessive-compulsive low volume trainers. Low volume has it's place in bodybuilding and that place is allowing one to get stronger so they can take those added strength gains and go do more volume to blast the type-2 fibers!!!!!!!!!!! 

I have learned that balance is so important in both bodybuilding and power-lifting. Periodization is needed to become progressively stronger and bigger as a power-lifter and the same rule applies to bodybuilding. The *STS* was designed on those very principles.

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## Ronnie Rowland

> Max-OT templates are wacky because some templates have a lot of upper-torso overlap, and other templates don't. Dude didn't think through his workout plan well enough. Week to week, your results seem to bop and weave. 
> 
> Because HIT is about demonstrating your size gains through strength -- if you gained a lot of real, force-produced mass -- your strength levels will take off, even if the coupling of your system has been mitigated. There's of course significant flaws with HIT, and by no means am I saying that it should be used primarily as a strength-training system, but generally if your mass gains are big, your strength gains will be big. The general complaint among HIT trainees is that they enjoy these strength gains but have little size gains to show. But the brilliance of Dante's program is how its additional strategies creates safeguard mechanisms whereby a Brawn-ish HIT program can mantain HST-validity, even if the HIT aspect of it begins to collapse.


1) I agree with you about the MAX-OT templates not being optimal due to over-lapping of other body parts.

2) I don't understand why you believe one can gain strength on HIT and not gain size, but on DC training you say size gains are caused by strength increases. It makes no sense to me?????

You know what I think? I think the HIT boys who gain stength but no size is because of 2 reasons. 1) They simply do not eat enough calories. 2) They are not using enough volume to blast those type-2 fibers we both keep talking about. HIT can mean different things to various people. And many would argue DC is HIT. I no longer refer to DC as being under the HIT umbrella out of respect for Dante, but behind the scenes many still refer to it as HIT because it's low volume and utlizes rest-pause. 

Think about this for a moment-Mike Mentzer is well known for HIT. When Mentzer first began promoting his training methods he used even higher volume than DC training and he trained each muscle group with 5 sets twice a week. His volume was comparable to the STS. He went off the deep end in his latter years trying to sell books filled with voodoo bodybuilding. I am of the opinion that Mike had reached his peak, got lazy and needed to find something appealing to sell to the public. However, the main theme I got from Mentzer when he was actually making progress was to use 3-5 sets twice per week to absolute failure. This is how Mentzer really got so big! Not by doing 2 sets a week like many seem to believe.

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## Ronnie Rowland

One more thing I'd like for you to think about and that is the need to use extreme stretching for enhancing muscle recovery. Since a low volume rest-pause is not going to cause over-training of the actual muscle tissue itself, why all the stretching to improve recovery? This is one thing I keep hearing over and over that makes absolutely no sense. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this!

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## IronReload04

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## Ronnie Rowland

> I wont be able to get back to you until after thanksgiving.....I got exams from now until then.....i will still probably be posting on steroid .com, and mabye even in workout section, but just letting you know because of exams, i wont be able to be thinking hard about this stuff until after thanksgiving when exams are over....
> 
> just wanted to let you know, then we can pick back up after the holiday


I understand. In the mean time, I will be re-loading my Slingshot...LOL..Have a nice holiday!

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## naturalsux

> One more thing I'd like for you to think about and that is the need to use extreme stretching for enhancing muscle recovery. Since a low volume rest-pause is not going to cause over-training of the actual muscle tissue itself, why all the stretching to improve recovery? This is one thing I keep hearing over and over that makes absolutely no sense. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this!


so do you believe in extreme stretching? 

i ve found 8-14 sets to be the best for me.

this is an excellent thread!

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## Machdiesel

Hey slingshot, i think i read in one of your threads your "workout routine" is an advanced. more up to date, extensive extension of the iron man HIT, is this correct??

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## Machdiesel

if so could u put up a link that lays out the slingshot method, ive had great succes with the iron man and would love to change it up

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## Ronnie Rowland

> so do you believe in extreme stretching? 
> 
> i ve found 8-14 sets to be the best for me.
> 
> this is an excellent thread!


I do not recommend "extreme" stetching. Here's a good link for you to read. Tenmoney sums it up nicely. http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=318860

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## Ronnie Rowland

> Hey slingshot, i think i read in one of your threads your "workout routine" is an advanced. more up to date, extensive extension of the iron man HIT, is this correct??



The 3 day per week *Slinghot Training System* is indeed a more up to date version of the *Ironman "HIT."*  The original *Ironman "HIT"* I designed did not have rest-pause nor did the reps go lower than 4. Everything else was the same. Ironman (my old room mate) took my original version, added those things to it and then posted it on the net. 

The 3 day per week *STS* works much better than the 3 day per week *Ironman "HIT."* 

Here's a post from 41 year old driftonce over at bodybuilding.com who uses the 3 day per week *STS.* "The 3 day per week split I have in the Slingshot Training thread is merely for beginners (First 3 months of training). In the future I will post the 3 day per week STS were each muscle is trained twice every 8 days with 2 exercises per boypart. It works even better than the Ironman HIT I designed back in the 80's.. 

The *STS* has really brought out a lot of my potential. I feel really strong right now
My best lifts are
squat 610
bench 550
deadlift 650.
Right now I am doing box squats with 405 on to a 12 inch box with a full 1-2 second pause, no knee wraps, no belt. And I am enjoying the progress! I am shooting for a 700 deadlift in the next few months. Here's his picture. I hope he doesn't plan on shooting me with that gun in the background if he fails to make the 700 lb dead-lift. :Hmmmm:

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## Ronnie Rowland

> if so could u put up a link that lays out the slingshot method, ive had great succes with the iron man and would love to change it up


Sure thing. I have revised the *STS* for easier understanding. It begins on page 138 in the link provided below. The link simply takes you to the Slingshot Training thread located at the top of this workout section.

The revision starts on page 138. So, skip the first 137 pages! I strongly suggest you begin reading at page 138 so you can get a better understanding of what the STS is all about. I have even posted some before and after pics of myself on page 139 to show how this form of training has helped me. I am a very hard-gainer! 

The *3 day per week STS* is located on page 146  in the link provided below. Let me know if you have any further questions. You will see better results with the 3 day per week STS! 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=314569

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