# STEROIDS FORUM > IGF-1 LR3, HGH, and INSULIN QUESTIONS >  My take on IGF-1

## ss01

On July 20 I got into some pretty intense discussion on another board about IGF-1. I got so rattled with the misinformation that I decided to loose my 13 years of reading on IGF-1 onto that board. Here's the result.




> If you want to use IGF for localization growth get some rhIGF-1. It binds to the wound only and does not go into the bloodstream. This helps repair the injection wound and makes new cells in that area only. While Long R3 IGF binds somewhat to the would then makes its way to the blood stream causing growth throughout the body..


 This is false.

The difference between rhIGF-1 and Long R3 is that the Long R3 does not get bound by binding protein and thus is 100% active whereas you do lose a great % of whatever amount of rhIGF-1 you inject to IGFBP3.

While technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of the rhIGF-1 it will have almost only localized effect, it is so because the "excess" that does not bind to cells in the muscle in which it is injected is rapidly bound up by IGFBP3 and thus rendered unusable by cells elsewhere. It would be much much better in such a case to inject a smaller amount and not have ANY excess that gets bound up by IGFBP's.

And while technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of Long R3 IGF-1 in a muscle, it will first bind to the nearest available receptor, and spread, binding to more and more receptors and not be bound up and neutralized by IGFBP's, meaning that it will travel all through your body and grow all kinds of tissue. This is called the systemic effect of IGF-1. Therein lies the only distinction in terms of BOTH half-life and localized/systemic effect between the Long and the human varieties.

What does all this mean?

It means that technically, for the part of the muscle in which you inject, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN rhIGF-1 and Long R3 IGF-1. They both have the EXACT SAME LOCAL EFFECT. But rhIGF-1 gets neutralized quick, whereas Long R3 gets to float around until it finds a receptor.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us many things. Let's start with what we want, then see where that leads us. What do we want? Bigger muscles. More muscle cells that we will later grow with exercise and gear. A pump? Fatloss? Yeah, right. You can get a pump with a good "pump" product for a quarter of the price of IGF-1. Fatloss? Clen /Alb and T3/T4 will give it to you again at a fraction of the price of IGF-1. More muscle cells, you can ONLY get with IGF-1 (and MGF too). Nothing else will give it to you and if you are using IGF-1 for anything else, you are misusing it. More muscle cells is CLEARLY the best use for IGF-1.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us that we should use IGF-1 to make more muscle cells. It's the only thing that can give it to us and more cells is more growth, which is our goal.

What does this tell us?

The localized effects are the best. Long R3 IGF-1 can float around your body and attach to anything that has IGF-1 receptors. The intestines is the place that has the MOST IGF-1 receptors and it also happens to have lots of blood flow. Injecting large amounts of Long R3 ENSURES that you are growing your intestines. Remember, more cells doesn't equal more size right away. Wait a bit, and see them grow.

What does this mean?

It means that if you are injecting upwards of 50mcg of IGF-1 you are growing your intestines. Yes you are also growing muscle and you may be getting leaner in the process. Your waistline looks trimmer. Nice. A few months down the line, your new intestinal cells will be of their full adult size and you will have acquired the perma-bloat look. Guaranteed. Maybe not Coleman-size perma-gut, but SOME perma-gut and it will keep growing. Guaranteed. Just as your new muscle cells can keep growing and growing IF you pin IGF-1 in a way to maximize new muscle cell creation.

HOW?

Heavy resistance exercise strongly upregulates the IGF-1 receptors on the stressed muscle. That means that after your workout, the muscles you trained are at their BEST STATE for receiving IGF-1 and growing many new cells. That's when you pin. This upregulation of IGF-1 receptor during exercise is short-lived. The science is not readily available so I am unable to quote a paper, but within 60 minutes of the last set, the receptors are back at baseline. This means, PIN IMMEDIATELY POSTWORKOUT and you will get your new muscle cells. PIN A LESSER AMOUNT and you will get only new MUSCLE cells out of your IGF-1. Pin more and you will grow other things, including stuff you wish you didn't grow.

What else?

All the talk about IGF-1's half-life is UTTER BULLSHIT. It is technicality without any real-world applicability. Yes rhIGF-1 has a "short half-life". But what does it mean? It means that it is either taken up by a cell receptor or bound up by a binding protein in short order. Does it mean that 20 minutes after the IGF-1 is pinned you should pin more because "blood levels are low"? Not by any means. Once it's activated a cell receptor, that's where it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete and which will consume lots of energy. So the half-life of 20 minutes means NOTHING BECAUSE THE EFFECTS STILL LAST 72 HOURS ALL THE SAME.

What about Long R3 IGF-1?

Yes technically it has a longer half-life. Why? Because it either gets rapidly taken up by a cell receptor or... Just floats around. Until it can find a receptor or is destroyed by the immune system or some other metabolizing mechanism. BUT THIS MEANS ***NOTHING***!!! Why does it mean nothing? BECAUSE once it attaches to a cell receptor, it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete. THIS CELLULAR RESPONSE IS ALL THAT INTERESTS US. Not "blood levels", that's utter bullshit. As a matter of fact, the one thing YOU DO NOT WANT IS FOR BLOOD LEVELS OF IGF-1 TO BE ELEVATED. Because that means you are growing everywhere and this means first and foremost your guts. Sure it feels like it's working while you're on. Just you wait 9 months and see that you look like Craig Kovacs. Bravo, you now have the biggest intestines in the world.

Half-life means nothing. Localized vs systemic = bad argument. You want localized effects. Period. You get them by pinning immediately postworkout. Period. End of argument.

OMFG I am so tired of all the misinformation floating around on IGF-1. Look at the length of this post. Did you read all of it? You should, you know.

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## ss01

> I am also interested in the amount your recommend shooting post workout?


40mcg is plenty. We have to realize that this is a huge amount compared to what the body naturally produces. Maybe we can ask TheGame46 who is working on his master's degree in endocrinology what the actual amount produced by a normal human, say even with exercise, but it's probably something less than 1mcg.

20mcg each side. 30 each side in the quads. That's plenty. Now, you won't see major, immediate LBM increases, but THAT IS NOT WHAT IGF-1 IS FOR. That's what AAS are for. 40-50mcg total will let you get plenty of hyperplasia, not grow your intestines too much, and save you plenty of $. The newly added muscle cells will take months to grow, but they will, and you will use IGF-1 again because it gets reasonably inexpensive with such a protocol.

Another thing: much of the newer research shows that EOD and even E3D igf-1 treatment is better than ED because ED downregulates the receptors too quick. It takes some time for receptors to be able to come back in full after a megadose of even 20mcg of IGF-1. So you may want to think about switching to EOD lifting and IGF-1 immediately postworkout every workout, or 2on/1off and pin the lagging muscle E3D. These dosing patterns won't give you pounds of immediate muscle, but they will give you hyperplasia, which means continued growth at very decent rates, and the ability to continue treatment for a long while until response diminishes.

And no Coleman guts.

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## ss01

> I was thinking about trying IGF, very interesting info here. Thanks Grunt for posting this info. A couple of other questions that maybe you can answer, if you don't mind. How does IGF interact with insulin, i.e. can it be pinned with insulin post workout? Also, what are your thoughts on taking IGF durring a cycle of HGH?


Great questions. I'll start with some background on the peptides from back before IGF-1 was commonly used. GH was the first peptide to be used in Bodybuilding. We pretty much know what GH does and doesn't do and all that, so I'll skip this part. Then came along insulin . It quickly became apparent that slin on its own doesn't do much for muscle. It does make you fat but not much bigger. With AAS and tons of food, it's better. Later it became extremely clear that Slin & GH was the winner combo, the most synergistic combination around.

What few people realize even today - and it's been what, nearly 20 years of insulin usage in BBing, is that the very reason why slin and GH are synergystic is that when levels of both are high, the liver turns the GH into IGF-1. That's right, when doing slin & GH, you are in fact using these because your body makes more IGF-1 with them. So it isn't the slin OR the GH nor actually the compounding of the effects of each, but rather good old IGF-1. Even the name Insulinlike Growth Factor, has been made such because of the origin of the compound in Insulin and Growth Hormone .

Now, the IGF-1 from slin & GH is not long R3 IGF-1, it's hIGF-1. It's different and possibly the effects are somewhat different than when using Long R3, especially with regards to IGF-1 receptor downregulation, which is likely much lesser with the liver-synthesized IGF-1 than with the Long R3. No studies proving this, it is theory at this point and such a study will possibly never be made, for many good reasons. One reason why receptor downregulation is lesser with hIGF-1 is its half-life, or its very limited ability to run around the body and saturate all receptors everywhere. And here we join up with the EOD and E3D protocols which state that letting the receptors rest is extremely important to continued results. You get the same effect out of slin & gh because of IGFBP3 that mops up the IGF-1 within minutes of synthesis, which makes it impossible to saturate the receptors and lets them rest. Similar effect, completely different way of achieving it.

So slin & gh are synergistic. Then the next question: what about slin & IGF or Gh & IGF? IGF is synergistic with both. MOST of the effects of GH are mediated through IGF-1 but not ALL of them. Among the good effects of GH that IGF-1 does not exert is anabolism to ligaments, for example. This is just an example to show that there is a benefit to using GH & IGF-1 at the same time. There is evidence that ED dosing of LR3 reduces GH release in the body, so it makes plenty of sense to use both at the same time.

Slin & IGF is a different animal. Most of the benefits of insulin come from its ability to increase IGF-1. Unless you are diabetic, your body makes enough insulin. Eat more, it releases more insulin. More carbs? More slin. The limit to the body's ability to release slin isn't easily reached. Even feeding 10,000 cals ED your body can produce the slin to store that. Easily.

Am I stating there is no use in pinning slin & IGF together? No. There is evidence that shows that pinning slin with IGF-1 increases the length of the effects of IGF-1. Especially the hypoglycemic effects, obviously, but this has pretty far-ranging and beneficial implications, among which saturating the lean cells with nutrients and having a low blood sugar level are not the least. Obviously they are both hypoglycemic compounds so carbs have to be adjusted up when adding IGF-1 to slin, or slin reduced. I prefer the second option, although I am at a loss as to the amount of slin you would have to remove for compensation with, say, 40mcg IGF-1.

Personally I have not done this. Both my grandfathers were diabetics, so I'm not playing with slin. Especially that I have a natural tendency to go hypoglycemic easily. IGF-1 though is simply GREAT for me.

What I did do, over 10 years ago, is use an extremely potent GH releaser named GHB and combined that with a few ounces of sugar, the idea being of course a cheap version of GH & Slin. Obviously it worked great over a few months and it did produce hyperplasia, as made very obvious by the muscle size I retained when taking a 2 year layoff from lifting because of a non-training related injury.

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## ss01

> Dont take this as me being a dick but do you have some experience with IGF Grunt? If so what were your gains? And have you tried rhIGF? What kind of gains from those? I would guess with as much knowledge you have on this you'd have to have run it before.


I have run LR3 at 20, 30, 40 and 50mcg ED as well as variations of only postworkout pinning. I suggested EOD and gapped dosing way before lab research showed that this would be a better dosing protocol.

In my experience, IMMEDIATELY-POSTWORKOUT dosing is all-important to hyperplasia. SOME benefit is had by pinning preworkout and at other times, but the vey best resutls from pinning immediately postworkout. I have experimented with 5-minutes postworkout and 20-30 minutes postworkout and have found the 5-minutes postworkout dosing to be VASTLY superior to any other dosing protocol. I know it isn't the most practical for most of us, but I'm saying what I have seen on myself.

Gains out of IGF-1 are difficult to account for. Firstly, it is much more a recomposition compound than a mass or fatloss compound. On AAS, the gains are "this many lbs of LBM". On clen /Thyroid, gains are "so many lbs of flab". On IGF-1 the gains are "some fatloss, some muscle gain/retention, and this many new cells that I will grow in the coming months".

But suffice it to say that my first experimentation protocol was 5 minutes postworkout in my biceps, delts and chest because my previous research had indicated that the postworkout window was limited, and because those were my lagging bodypart. My biceps went from 17" to 17&#189;" in the first 2 weeks along with some fatloss and another &#189;" in the 2 months afterward, my DB curls going from 55 x 10 to 65 x 10. That was after 12 years of natural training, with genetic potential pretty maxed out. Chest and delt results I did not even attempt to quantify but the difference was clearly visible.

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## ss01

On another board there was a log where the guy was shooting only his biceps because he read that local effects were little and his bis were lagging. A couple months after his log was done I asked about his biceps and he said they had now taken the lead in his muscular development.

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## ss01

> WOW this thread is awesome. I am 100% with you on the conservitave part, why put your health and life and for alot of of us here LOOKS in jepordy? On the other hand I must be the devils advocate, even though I feel a bit overwhelmed by some of these knowledgable bros...
> 
> Could this change with large doses of AAS? I could be wrong. Completely so, but with verry large amounts of certain anabolics your IGF raises drasticaly. Why would this not result in some for of perma gut?
> I beleive GH can cause some organ growth correct? Maybe that has a different mechanism but it seams this only happens at verry high doses over verry long periods of time.
> Why do we not see such organ growth with the use of extreme amounts of AAS over periods of years? And a more importantly, if you were to take large doses of AAS especialy those of the stronger breed do you think that the doses could increase, perhaps from increasing the rate of the receptors processing the IGF-1r3.
> 
> Also wouldn't it be verry usefull to use this chemical post cardio because of the blood pumping so drasticaly to the muscle sites, even pre or mid cardio work out?
> 
> I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I gotta ask the questions!!


Those are actually some very good questions. The answers are equally good.

There are two completely different ways in which IGF-1 is produced in the body. Even the IGF-1 molecule itself is slightly different in each case. The first, well known case, is where GH & Slin are used by the liver to make IGF-1 which is then released into the bloodstream. AAS has little to no bearing on this systemic, or "paracrine" IGF-1. It just circulates in the bloodstream and eventually finds an IGF-1 receptor on the outside surface of a cell and attaches to it, activating it.

The other pathway, the one that is rarely discussed, is the autocrine pathway. This is where a cell will produce its own IGF-1, a slightly different peptide than the systemic, for its own internal use. It is produced inside the cell, and acts on receptors within the cell. This is the pathway that AAS will greatly upregulate. This IGF-1 never leaves the cell.

So on one hand you have the systemic with its effects on the surface receptor and you have the autocrine with its effects on the internal receptor. So obviously when you know this it becomes obvious that the IGF-1 from AAS - the autocrine - will never give you the GH gut because the IGF-1 that it makes your cells produce never leaves the cell itself, it doesn't circulate around to go attach to an intestinal wall receptor.

The pathway through which GH causes organ growth *IS* systemic IGF-1. Most of the effects of GH are actually effects of IGF-1. GH is simply not very active on many cells but it is much converted by the liver into IGF-1 and this is what mediates the effects of GH. As I posted above, there ARE some effects of GH that are not mediated through IGF-1 but most of them are.

As far as upregulating the surface receptors through AAS usage, I have seen no evidence that points that way, but that is not entirely impossible. Improbable, but not impossible.

As far as pinning post-cardio, I don't see it. In my opinion, for bodybuilders IGF-1 has two main purposes: firstly hyperplasia, its main use, and secondly general tissue repair, meaning healing and preventing injury. Ligaments aren't repaired by IGF-1 but they're a rare exception. It is too expensive and too good at better things IMO to be wasted on a simple pump.

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## ss01

> How would one transport this to the gym for post wo injection? What's the best way to maintain integrity, avoid heat and not losse any?
> 
> Suggestions?


Diluted in AA, it is stable for a year at 98 degrees F. Of course, the insides of your car in the midst of a sunny summer day will be much hotter than that. Not the inside of your locker though.

What I always do is to load up a syringe with just the needed amount of IGF & AA, then use a small amount of aluminum foil to make a spacer between the end of the plunger and the cylinder to avoid discharging the syringe in transit, and put this and a couple alcohol pads and my BW inside a sunglass case in my gym bag.

I grab my bag after my workout, go change in the shower or toilet and pin at the same time. Then I get my shake.

IGF-1 is totally legal, so even if you get caught with some in a syringe, even if it comes to that, the police can only apologize politely for the trouble of questioning you and all that.

I still don't see how someone is going to find out what I do in my toilet stall though...

Never was a problem for me. I know a guy who tried in his car and was seen a few times, and got in some crazy situations with that. No police or anything, just zany adventures of a stressed guy.

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## ss01

Note: I use "Hyperplasia" in the above posts, knowing it isn't the exact word for growth of new myoblasts. Close enough I guess.

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## ss01

> Great info Grunt....I always like reading your stuff. I am in the middle of a 16week AAS cycle, and I started it using IGF, by the end of this 16 weeker I should have not only larger cells from the AAS but new cells from the IGF that are now larger cause of the AAS correct.


Indeed my friend. It should be noted that the new cells are myoblasts, pre-muscle cells, that will fuse with your existing muscle cells and donate their nucleii which are in fact myonucleii.

A muscle's protein-repair engine is the myonucleii. The more of them in a cell, the bigger the cell and the greater the ability to regenerate protein. This explains the permanent gains from IGF-1 in that the number of myonucleii does not easily decrease, which gives a cell a new minimum size. Unless of course a person undergoes starvation, but that's not the case around these parts. When we take AAS, it's the myonucleii that get stimulated into overdrive.

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## ss01

> i was pinning it split up 50mcg in the AM upon waking and 50mcg PWO (usually within 10 min of working out).


Split-dosing is a perfect example of what one SHOULD NOT DO.

Yes, you will *FEEL* the IGF-1 at work: pumps, hypo, etc. But that's bad because it means that the receptors are getting some degree of saturation and you have the IGF-1 systemically distributed, meaning it is basically growing everything.

A lot of guys expect to FEEL something working. I mean, pin 100mg Tren ED, how many days until you FEEL something? Not long, right! Gear grows you WHILE you're on it. IGF-1 is used to make more satellite cells to increase the growth POTENTIAL. If you grow the POTENTIAL enough, yes you will fell it working but that would be like using enough gear to see growth in the first week of a cycle. Highly unreasonable. 

But because IGF-1 is very different from gear, but everyone knows what to expect from gear, they project that onto IGF-1, which is totally unreasonable. It would be like expecting to lose 10lbs a week because you do cardio. By the time you're doing enough cardio to lose 10lbs a week, you're doing more wrong than good.

So, the only feeling from IGF-1 should be lethargy/hypo, which means it's working.

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## gettnthere

I know this doesnt matter to some guys,but it does to me... I have been researching IGF-1 and have come across some studies that say elevated IGF-1 levels is believed to be responsible for some Male Pattern Baldness?Mainly on the vertex.I thought GH was good for hair,skin,etc....Any knowledge on that

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## Random

> and have come across some studies that say elevated IGF-1 levels is believed to be responsible for some Male Pattern Baldness?Mainly on the vertex


Could you post the studies plz?

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## gettnthere

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=175072

Scroll thru the whole response..its like a forum format but with references to doctors and studies..let me know what you think

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## groundandpoundpwr21

So wait. Are you grunt72 on outlaw or did you steal his post and make it yours?

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## ss01

Yes I am Grunt76. This is my old handle, which got me some flak because some people assumed that ss01 means nazi. I kept it at some boards where I don't post much. Actually, this is the last one.

Hey, you didn't even PM me at Outlaw. I would want to get a PM when someone is stealing my work.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## pscarb

very very intresting read many thanks for that....i am always intrested in useing alternative methods to the norm...

i have one question though



> It means that if you are injecting upwards of 50mcg of IGF-1 you are growing your intestines. Yes you are also growing muscle and you may be getting leaner in the process. Your waistline looks trimmer. Nice. A few months down the line, your new intestinal cells will be of their full adult size and you will have acquired the perma-bloat look. Guaranteed. Maybe not Coleman-size perma-gut, but SOME perma-gut and it will keep growing. Guaranteed. Just as your new muscle cells can keep growing and growing IF you pin IGF-1 in a way to maximize new muscle cell creation.


last year for 11months i was off AAS and only use IGF-1LR3 and GH to maintain Muscle, i competed at the end of these 11months and took the overall title but the thing that was the most impressive was my very lean waist in fact it was 2" smaller but my BF5 was no more lower than the year before......
i was using between 60-80mcg's of IGF-1LR3 if your theory is correct would my waist actually grow rather than get smaller......just a question...

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## gettnthere

So no one knows anything about IGF-1 levels and hairloss...ive asked a few times and it just gets looked over.

Ive found studies that say both ways but Id like to hear personal knowledge not some in-depth study that says it MAY affect it..

ss01,u got anything on this or is it just not really known yet??

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## SMYL_GR8

Great post. Muchas grassy-ass.

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## ss01

> very very intresting read many thanks for that....i am always intrested in useing alternative methods to the norm...
> 
> i have one question though
> 
> last year for 11months i was off AAS and only use IGF-1LR3 and GH to maintain Muscle, i competed at the end of these 11months and took the overall title but the thing that was the most impressive was my very lean waist in fact it was 2" smaller but my BF5 was no more lower than the year before......
> i was using between 60-80mcg's of IGF-1LR3 if your theory is correct would my waist actually grow rather than get smaller......just a question...


Perhaps you are large enough that these large doses did not grow your organs much. Responses are highly individual and for this reason, I post relatively conservative amounts. There are exceptions to every rule. Still, if I were you I'd be watchful of organ growth in the coming months. I feel that you will see it.

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## pscarb

i understand that their are always an exception to the rule...

i am 5'5" tall and approx 210lbs in the off season...the doses i use seem to do the trick so no need in increasing them any higher, so what doses do you think i will see organ growth in the next few months if i have not seen any in the last 18months...??

the only reason i ask is that making a claim that you will eventually see Organ Growth on IGF-1LR3 is pretty big....

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## Zelos

> Diluted in AA, it is stable for a year at 98 degrees F. Of course, the insides of your car in the midst of a sunny summer day will be much hotter than that. Not the inside of your locker though.
> 
> What I always do is to load up a syringe with just the needed amount of IGF & AA, then use a small amount of aluminum foil to make a spacer between the end of the plunger and the cylinder to avoid discharging the syringe in transit, and put this and a couple alcohol pads and my BW inside a sunglass case in my gym bag.
> 
> I grab my bag after my workout, go change in the shower or toilet and pin at the same time. Then I get my shake.
> 
> IGF-1 is totally legal, so even if you get caught with some in a syringe, even if it comes to that, the police can only apologize politely for the trouble of questioning you and all that.
> 
> I still don't see how someone is going to find out what I do in my toilet stall though...
> ...



Hi SS01,
when you say AA , what do you mean ?
sorry i really don't know  :Smilie: 

thanks

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## SHAGGY

Acetic Acid

SHAGGY

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## ss01

> i understand that their are always an exception to the rule...
> 
> i am 5'5" tall and approx 210lbs in the off season...the doses i use seem to do the trick so no need in increasing them any higher, so what doses do you think i will see organ growth in the next few months if i have not seen any in the last 18months...??
> 
> the only reason i ask is that making a claim that you will eventually see Organ Growth on IGF-1LR3 is pretty big....


You should see the number of PM's confirming it. Obviously people keep this to themselves and I will not tell you the names of guys who grew turtle-guts out of their ventures in the high-dose ranges. It's for real, bro. Not for everyone at the same doses, but I have guys telling me they've done 200mcg for 3 months and they had their best physique ever. A year afterwards, their waistline is 4" bigger, even ripped. Just be careful.

Now you state 18months, before that you mentioned 11 months. If for example, you do 1month ON, 1month OFF and you started at 40, then 40 again, then 50, then 60, then 80, then 100, that's a YEAR right there. So if you did such a thing, then you've only been using high doses for the last 3 months or so. That's not long enough for gut growth to show up.

And yet, you might be safe, even doing that. I'M saying that there is RISK of organ growth with large doses, not CERTAINTY of turtle gut at 80mcg for a month. Get me?

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## Zelos

so you mean with Acetic Acid you can keep igf for months on the fridge ?

thanks.


thanks SHAGGY  :Smilie:

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## SHAGGY

No problem Zelos :Wink/Grin:  

SHAGGY

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## pscarb

SS01 - i have been using IGF-1LR3 for 18months in total....from may-05 to April-06 (11months) i trained and competed without any steroids only used GH and IGF-1LR3 all i am saying is that my waist reduced not got bigger in this time...

now i am sure you have got a lot of Pm's about this but you mention doses upwards of 50mcg's but then mention 200mcg's now after reading your post's i can see that you articulate but a dosing range between 50 - 200mcg's is a pretty wide margin so again i do have to say that what you have claimed about intestinal growth is a pretty big claim....can i ask if there is any studies/science that have documented such a thing??

you also mention guys who have done 200mcg's for 3 months ?? is this straight or they did 1month of 200mcg's ed then took a month off the reason i ask is that all the research i have read and from my own experiences pretty much 6-7 weeks is max for IGF before your receptors close??
also when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??

please don't take my questions as a challenge to your person just questions to understand your statements so that their is no confusion....

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## InsaneInTheMembrane

Hey ss01, thanx for the info
I am doing IGF LR3 igtropin right now for 5 weeks (50 mcgs/day)

I've read up on RedBaron's posts especially where he says reconstitution with vinegar (AA) is ideal, same like you suggested..But I was wondering

1. If I am going to be using 1 vial (100 mcgs) up in two days, can I just use the sterile water provided?
2. Does not using AA/Vinegar shorten the stability of the IGF LR3 to as low as 24 hrs? 
3. Does reconstituing in AA make the IGF work better when injected? 

answers appreciated,
thanx bro

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## gettingBIGGERfast

Most protocols people advocate on these boards are eveyday either PWO and in the morning on non-workout days, or x2 a day, cycled 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. If one is using IGF EOD or E3D, does it need to be cycled in this manner or can one run it as long as needed? 

Awsome posts btw...thanx bro

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## ss01

> SS01 - i have been using IGF-1LR3 for 18months in total....from may-05 to April-06 (11months) i trained and competed without any steroids only used GH and IGF-1LR3 all i am saying is that my waist reduced not got bigger in this time...
> 
> now i am sure you have got a lot of Pm's about this but you mention doses upwards of 50mcg's but then mention 200mcg's now after reading your post's i can see that you articulate but a dosing range between 50 - 200mcg's is a pretty wide margin so again i do have to say that what you have claimed about intestinal growth is a pretty big claim....can i ask if there is any studies/science that have documented such a thing??
> 
> you also mention guys who have done 200mcg's for 3 months ?? is this straight or they did 1month of 200mcg's ed then took a month off the reason i ask is that all the research i have read and from my own experiences pretty much 6-7 weeks is max for IGF before your receptors close??
> also when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??
> 
> please don't take my questions as a challenge to your person just questions to understand your statements so that their is no confusion....


Well, what information I have is limited. I only know of 2 cases where 80mcg was enough to make some gut growth (not an actual turtle gut, but waistline expansion even when ripped). Most cases are above 100mcg. AAS are often involved, but then again I don't have all the details. 

As you so astutely report, on one hand I put 50mcg and on the other 200mcg. There is no set "line" that you shouldn't cross. For example, you KNOW that taking 200mcg of clen at the beginning of your clen cycle could give you a heart attack and kill you. Will it for sure? What is the minimum amount of clen that will kill you? No one knows. We know that 50mcg is safe, and that 200mcg MAY be OK after some tolerance has built. In many cases 100mcg is the maximum.

Well the same goes for IGF-1. I am advocating lower dosages because one thing that you can't tell with IGF-1 is if it is having its adverse effect at THIS dose. With clen it's easy: if your heart is going at 120bpm at rest, well that's your max dose right there. Right? Well considering that with IGF-1 it takes months to see the whole growth out of it, there is no going by feel. "Hey I'm taking 200mcg ED and I don't feel my guts growing". 6 months down the line, things are different.

The tissue with the highest amount of IGF-1 receptors is the intestine. This is widely available knowledge. No need for studies on an established FACT.

----------


## ss01

> Hey ss01, thanx for the info
> I am doing IGF LR3 igtropin right now for 5 weeks (50 mcgs/day)
> 
> I've read up on RedBaron's posts especially where he says reconstitution with vinegar (AA) is ideal, same like you suggested..But I was wondering
> 
> 1. If I am going to be using 1 vial (100 mcgs) up in two days, can I just use the sterile water provided?
> 2. Does not using AA/Vinegar shorten the stability of the IGF LR3 to as low as 24 hrs? 
> 3. Does reconstituing in AA make the IGF work better when injected? 
> 
> ...


I always get my IGF with AA and reconstitute it with that. Gropep recommends AA. You will PERHAPS be OK with BW. I do not know for sure. I always get the 1mg vials, so BW is always out of the question. You just might be OK, but why not order some sterile AA? It is very inexpensive.

----------


## ss01

> Most protocols people advocate on these boards are eveyday either PWO and in the morning on non-workout days, or x2 a day, cycled 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. If one is using IGF EOD or E3D, does it need to be cycled in this manner or can one run it as long as needed? 
> 
> Awsome posts btw...thanx bro


Yes there are many protocols out there. The only protocol that can possibly be run indefinitely is the one where you inject ONLY IMMEDIATELY postworkout in the (lagging) muscle trained and E3D. With a reasonable dose, you might be able to keep getting results for many months on end. All the other ones will downregulate the receptors very quickly, unless the dose is very low, at which point you would have more results by keeping the same weekly amount but do the only PWO thing.

----------


## pscarb

SS01 - i take it from your reply you are getting annoyed at my enquires into what you have said, i don't understand why because i am only trying to fully understand what you are saying.

i would definatly agree that if someone was to use 200mcg's ed for the whole cycle then the sides including waist growth would be highly likely but my concern was that originaly you did clearly state 50mcg's and above which i do have a hard time believing that at this dose enlargment of the waist would happen.

i am fully aware that the majority of the IGF-1 receptors are in the intestines and this is why i never advocate Sub-q injections in the stomach...

i do want to ask again though...
when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??
i would like your reply on this though Bro as i think this might have a big impact on what you are saying...and it could mean that the intestines are growing because of a combination of substances rather than just IGF-1LR3 unless the subjects you are talking about only ever used IGF-1LR3??

remember we only learn by asking questions of others....

----------


## ss01

> SS01 - i take it from your reply you are getting annoyed at my enquires into what you have said, i don't understand why because i am only trying to fully understand what you are saying.
> 
> i would definatly agree that if someone was to use 200mcg's ed for the whole cycle then the sides including waist growth would be highly likely but my concern was that originaly you did clearly state 50mcg's and above which i do have a hard time believing that at this dose enlargment of the waist would happen.
> 
> i am fully aware that the majority of the IGF-1 receptors are in the intestines and this is why i never advocate Sub-q injections in the stomach...
> 
> i do want to ask again though...
> when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??
> i would like your reply on this though Bro as i think this might have a big impact on what you are saying...and it could mean that the intestines are growing because of a combination of substances rather than just IGF-1LR3 unless the subjects you are talking about only ever used IGF-1LR3??
> ...


No, I have not felt annoyed by your questions. My data is very limited as I pointed out. Just some guys showing up in my inbox going "Yeah man keep telling them to take it easy, I got this gut from so much IGF..." I ask what dosage was used and sometimes what cycle was done. Sometimes I get an answer and sometimes I don't. These messages have show up over time and I did not keep records and statistics. About a half-dozen people reported they got guts from 80-200mcg in the last 6 months. Other data is little and sparse. I'm just saying, take it easy on the dosage. I cannot assert more than I have out of what data I have.

----------


## InsaneInTheMembrane

> I always get my IGF with AA and reconstitute it with that. Gropep recommends AA. You will PERHAPS be OK with BW. I do not know for sure. I always get the 1mg vials, so BW is always out of the question. You just might be OK, but why not order some sterile AA? It is very inexpensive.


Thanx man, will get off my lazy @$$ and order me some  :LOL:  

cheers

----------


## pscarb

> No, I have not felt annoyed by your questions. My data is very limited as I pointed out. Just some guys showing up in my inbox going "Yeah man keep telling them to take it easy, I got this gut from so much IGF..." I ask what dosage was used and sometimes what cycle was done. Sometimes I get an answer and sometimes I don't. These messages have show up over time and I did not keep records and statistics. About a half-dozen people reported they got guts from 80-200mcg in the last 6 months. Other data is little and sparse. I'm just saying, take it easy on the dosage. I cannot assert more than I have out of what data I have.



Well we totally agree then i am all for starting low and not to raise it until the effect warrant it.
The guys i advise always start on 40mcg's and never go over 80mcg's only because i have seen great results with these doses...

Like i have said i have been using for 18months and on my present 4 week cycle during in PCT i have raised it to 100mcg's Mon - Fri to see what the results are....if they are no better then i will go back.....

i find your post's on this subject very intresting mate...as anacdotal information is all we can go by with IGF-1LR3

----------


## G-Force

very interesting read
good work SS01
much appreciated

i'm gonna reduce my dose and use PWO only next time
cheers

----------


## ss01

I want to add that a couple things that create a lot of bad noise around IGF-1 is this: some people sell it with just BW and no acid, which ensures the stuff remains active only a few days inside the vials. (24hours guaranteed!) In turn, someone stretching that vial for any length of time will see little results, although high-dosers will be very happy. The other thing is the guys selling hCG and slin as IGF-1 or heck, other things like GHRP or similar peptides.

----------


## Ironman5151

Great post ss01.

----------


## perfectbeast2001

It was an interesting read. I think you need to be careful with the scaremongering though. On reading your piece it would have many believe that shooting more than 50mcg is going to cause problems. This is not backed up with any evidence apart from the fact you say you got some PMs. You then side step this when pressed and say over 200mcg then say actually you don't know what dosage could lead to intestinal growth. 
So in a nutshell IGF may or may not at an unknown dosage cause intestinal growth.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> It was an interesting read. I think you need to be careful with the scaremongering though. On reading your piece it would have many believe that shooting more than 50mcg is going to cause problems. This is not backed up with any evidence apart from the fact you say you got some PMs. You then side step this when pressed and say over 200mcg then say actually you don't know what dosage could lead to intestinal growth. 
> So in a nutshell IGF may or may not at an unknown dosage cause intestinal growth.


Agreed. I get around 100-200 e-mails a day, and only when I see a huge amount of them leaning towards a certain trend am I confident in saying that something is up. A few PMs isn't really anything....but if you only get a few PMs a day, then it's enough to say "100% of the people I know" or "Half the people who talked to me..." when in reality we're only getting a sample of around 5-10 people.

----------


## rodge

is'nt intestine growth mostly due to elevated igf-II levels from high doses of hgh and not from igf-1? i thought i read somewhere that intestines mostly have igf-II receptors,could be wrong tho.

interesting read none the less.

-rodge

----------


## Random

> is'nt intestine growth mostly due to elevated igf-II levels from high doses of hgh and not from igf-1?


Thats what i always thought...i thought it was high mega doses of GH that caused the growth and not higher doses of IGF....

----------


## ss01

> It was an interesting read. I think you need to be careful with the scaremongering though. On reading your piece *it would have many believe* that shooting more than 50mcg is going to cause problems. This is not backed up with any evidence apart from the fact you say you got some PMs. You then side step this when pressed and say over 200mcg then say* actually you don't know what dosage could lead to intestinal growth*. 
> So in a nutshell IGF may or may not at an unknown dosage cause intestinal growth.


First you are right, SOME PEOPLE *MIGHT* mistakenly believe that I am stating that more than 50mcg ED *WILL* cause gut growth. When I am not. And then you are a bit wrong, because I state that I do not know for sure which dosage is the minimum amount that *WILL* cause gut growth. Yes these are nuances. Are you criticizing the fact that my post is precisely as nuanced as the bio-individual effects of IGF-1? I'll take it as a compliment. Thanks.




> Agreed. I get around 100-200 e-mails a day, and only when I see a huge amount of them leaning towards a certain trend am I confident in saying that something is up. A few PMs isn't really anything....but if you only get a few PMs a day, then it's enough to say "100% of the people I know" or "Half the people who talked to me..." when in reality we're only getting a sample of around 5-10 people.


I have done way more than enough statistics to understand statistical significance. Bottom line, you ASSUME that I don't really know what I'm talking about. And because you have BOOKS (omfg!) out, then people ASSUME that what YOU assume, is right.

So while the guy above states that people understand with little nuance, you outright take advantage of that fact.





> Thats what i always thought...i thought it was high mega doses of GH that caused the growth and not higher doses of IGF....


That is altogether very possible. As I have pointed out often, many of the cases were also using GH, with or without slin, and the whole spectrum of things that are available to bodybuilders. It should be way beyond OBVIOUS that I am not speaking of squeaky-clean lab data here, but of a collection of reports from users, THROUGHOUT THE YEARS. Which does make it very difficult to isolate one factor in particular.

*One thing that remains, is that huge doses of IGF-1 aren't required for great results, that large doses of IGF-1 downregulate receptors real quick, rendering it mostly ineffective, and that large doses of IGF-1 *MAY* cause gut growth in some athletes, either in combination with something else or on its own. I have received anecdotal evidence that in large doses, it does.

We have all seen the guts on the larger guys, we all want to avoid it, and I present a protocol that is *OPTIMAL* in decreasing likelihood of guts and that also maximizes results at a given dose.*

Ah, but the mighty people with names in blazing gold letters have not thought about it first, so we *MUST* shoot this nobody guy down! Right?

----------


## Random

> is that huge doses of IGF-1 aren't required for great results


i Agree with that, ive gotten great results on less than 60mcg per day...good post, i understand your points and the fact that you arent claiming to be the Know-all IGF guru, youre simply stating good info from your perspective, nothin wrong with that...CD

----------


## ss01

> i Agree with that, ive gotten great results on less than 60mcg per day...good post, i understand your points and the fact that you arent claiming to be the Know-all IGF guru, youre simply stating good info from your perspective, nothin wrong with that...CD


Your understanding is appreciated.

Some of my weak reps to you bro.

----------


## rodge

i agree that high dose are'nt neccasary, atleast not right away. my first 2 runs were @ 50mcg and gave me some decent results.

-rodge

----------


## AnabolicAndre

HMMMMMM I have read this speculation before, somewhere, I know I have....


has someone been busy playing copy & paste???

----------


## bball_playa

thanks for your input..... very useful

----------


## *Narkissos*

Interesting perspective i must admit.

Nark

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## Random

[QUOTE]Your understanding is appreciated.[/QUOTE

No prob man, im all about hearing two sides to the story, along with using minimum doses vs megadoses for my goals....CD

----------


## perfectbeast2001

> First you are right, SOME PEOPLE *MIGHT* mistakenly believe that I am stating that more than 50mcg ED *WILL* cause gut growth. When I am not. And then you are a bit wrong, because I state that I do not know for sure which dosage is the minimum amount that *WILL* cause gut growth. Yes these are nuances. Are you criticizing the fact that my post is precisely as nuanced as the bio-individual effects of IGF-1? I'll take it as a compliment. Thanks.
> 
> I have done way more than enough statistics to understand statistical significance. Bottom line, you ASSUME that I don't really know what I'm talking about. And because you have BOOKS (omfg!) out, then people ASSUME that what YOU assume, is right.
> 
> So while the guy above states that people understand with little nuance, you outright take advantage of that fact.
> 
> 
> That is altogether very possible. As I have pointed out often, many of the cases were also using GH, with or without slin, and the whole spectrum of things that are available to bodybuilders. It should be way beyond OBVIOUS that I am not speaking of squeaky-clean lab data here, but of a collection of reports from users, THROUGHOUT THE YEARS. Which does make it very difficult to isolate one factor in particular.
> 
> ...


Take it easy dude. I'm no expert I'm just pointing out that the first post may have over dramatized things a little and it wasn't backed up with any evidence. I still think it's a good and interesting read though.

----------


## scrappydoo

ttt for later

----------


## GreenNBroken

1234

----------


## ss01

> I have some real fundamental usage questions if someone could help me out:
> 1) reconstituted shelf-life (or frig-life as the case may be)?
> 2) what is the the best substance to reconsititue with?
> 3) what brand would you suggest?
> 
> I'm a little guy 145 pounds and don't have any unrealistic expectations. I have lifted since I was 13 (21 years) so I believe I'm pretty close to my genetic potential but I would like to put on about 10 pounds in the next year. 5 years ago I tore my right pec, 50% from the arm bone, in addition it tore longitudinally, so I have a ball of pec about dead center. The under layer of pec (the major head, I didn't tear the minor upper head) has developed somewhat so I still have a mostly normal shaped chest (unless I flex) but because IGF-1 can stimulate new muscle cell growth I was hoping to kinda fill in the hole (obviously it won't re-attach muscle to bone but if the under layer were say twice as thick it would be a whole lot better).
> I live in the US so I'm also interested in any legal aspects of IGF-1. I searched the DEA's site and reviewed their controlled substances schedules and IGF-1 was not on it.
> Long and short, lots of basic info and supplier please. 
> Due to my size I've always taken half doses and based on my initial reading on IGF-1 I was planning 50 mcg's 4 days a week post workout, any opinions here would also be appreciated.


1. Reconstituted life is over a year long.
2. 100nM (0.6%) acetic acid ... or HCl solution of the same pH.
3. I know of one source that has tested their media grade and the result is 96% purity.

I am open for personal coaching on how to use IGF-1. Email me at *Read the board rules. Do not post email addresses.*

----------


## GreenNBroken

1234

----------


## GreenNBroken

1234

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## LuckyDragon

It seems like there would be a huge disparity in results in terms of hypoplasia, fat loss, pump etc between using 40mcg EOD(could afford it!) or 2 on 1 off, vs using 60-80mcg ED. 


Ss01's theory seems to be that it should be primarily used for hyperplasia, which would allow the potential for future growth. Does this happen on IGF, or just allow it following the usage of it?


Anthony you seem to advocate using more 80mcg ED(couldnt afford), would using this just for PWO yield the same effects in terms of localized growth. All these questions are basically that Im more concerned with achieving localized growth then an overall fat loss, pump etc...even if its only a couple lbs. Anthony whats your theory regarding 40mcg dosages PWO? Would this be enough to cause the localized growth that Ss01 is referring too. Yes this alot of questions so thankyou


Also anyone elses experience using it is appreciated!

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## ss01

This "theory" has been tested in human trials on multiple subjects and has borne the results indicated above.

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## twitchfast

good info right here  :Smilie:  Thanks

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## Skills

Really liked what was said here, very useful and thought provoking indeed, and I could use some of sso01 coaching!

Thanks, Skills

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## ss01

> Really liked what was said here, very useful and thought provoking indeed, and I could use some of sso01 coaching!
> 
> Thanks, Skills


I am available.

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## Skills

> I am available.



Thanks. I haven't got enough privilleges to use PM. Can you PM your email address. Cheers

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## jose1960

I did my first IGF LR3 cycle for four weeks at 40mcg/day, at the just-worked muscle site. This gave me pretty good muscle growth result, but also gave me a bit of a gut. I'm pissed 'cause I had obviously been misinformed in that the perma gut thing would not happen with this form of IGF. 

My question is there a way I can get rid of the gut, or am I stuck with this s#%t?

----------


## mmaximus25

One question? what was your diet like... I have found you must eat a good to high amount of carbs but you seriously need to watch the fat intake... I keep it at .25g x my body weight. Once I got off juice yet kept the IGF cycles i found I needed to keep an even better watch on fat intake... When taking IGF I... I got a gut for a couple of reasons but on juice it was easier to consume a higher amount of fat an it not effect me too bad... but once off it was harder...
Im sure you know you need a hefty amount of every type of carbs and a dose of protein with before and after every shot of IGF-1... (I usually do the 90g carbs 40g protein shake before and meal after, but to each his own)

Whats your fat intake... how much do you get a day... I got back on track with a T3 cycle, used that gut up quick for me...




> I did my first IGF LR3 cycle for four weeks at 40mcg/day, at the just-worked muscle site. This gave me pretty good muscle growth result, but also gave me a bit of a gut. I'm pissed 'cause I had obviously been misinformed in that the perma gut thing would not happen with this form of IGF. 
> 
> My question is there a way I can get rid of the gut, or am I stuck with this s#%t?

----------


## BITTAPART2

wow! joses first post and he is backing up the person who started this thread already! coincedence?

----------


## kuad

interesting.....

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## ss01

Perma gut at 40mcg? Really? You must be 3 feet tall and 60 lbs...  :Big Grin: 

Seriously, I strongly doubt it. I think you've just bulked too hard and got some VAT.

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## LILLEN

*awsome post!!!*

I guy at the gym was talking about *10KG muscle in his first 16 days* on IGF 1 lr3. So he is full of bullshit? 
Im wondering what is the least amount of protein and carbs you should eat while on IGF? (im on Test tren cycle and thinking about IGF 1 Lr3.)
He said that I have to eat at least *600-800g of protein* (im 90kg) 

Can this be right?

And also I dont know if this is against the rules.. *but how much coast IGF in the states? (im from sweden)*

----------


## Bigdane05

> This "theory" has been tested in human trials on multiple subjects and has borne the results indicated above.


I'm running 4 ie of GH PWO 3 0n 1off 2 on 1off if i want take use IGF1 LR3 how do i do it ? the GH in the morning and Igf 1 PWO or do i take both PWO 

Thanks

----------


## Dobie-BOY

Great read, thanks ss01

----------


## ss01

> I'm running 4 ie of GH PWO 3 0n 1off 2 on 1off if i want take use IGF1 LR3 how do i do it ? the GH in the morning and Igf 1 PWO or do i take both PWO 
> 
> Thanks


Email me and we can discuss this in private, it is ouside of the scope of this post.

----------


## NotSmall

Wassup Grunt :Thumps Up:

----------


## Snrf

What I always wondered about IGF is this:

say you were aiming for localized growth, specifically triceps would you pin them PWO only on the days you work them specifically or do you pin them everyday regardless of which bodypart you had worked out? what about off days?

----------


## realjo1000

for those who use IGF-1, do you recommend cycling? 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off- type thing?

----------


## jbarkley

> is'nt intestine growth mostly due to elevated igf-II levels from high doses of hgh and not from igf-1? i thought i read somewhere that intestines mostly have igf-II receptors,could be wrong tho.
> 
> interesting read none the less.
> 
> -rodge


That's right, skeletal muscle is effectd by IGF-1 and smooth muscle fiber is effected by IGF-2

----------


## ss01

> What I always wondered about IGF is this:
> 
> say you were aiming for localized growth, specifically triceps would you pin them PWO only on the days you work them specifically or do you pin them everyday regardless of which bodypart you had worked out? what about off days?


Postworkout only. You may wish to train the lagging bodypart twice a week and pin it twice a week, or train triceps in one session, pin them, and then pin them again after training chest, and again after training delts.

The idea is that mechanical loading acutely upregulates IGF-1 receptors, so for any local effect, it does not make any sense to pin at any other time than immediately postworkout.

----------


## jerseyboy

I just read this last night over at PM. Good read. Thanks for taking the time Grunt. My first couple runs with IGF were 60 and then 80 mcgs. That was almost 2 years ago. Does this mean I have to run higher doses now or can I go back to 40?

----------


## MMA

> IGF-1 is totally legal, so even if you get caught with some in a syringe, even if it comes to that, the police can only apologize politely for the trouble of questioning you and all that.


i appreciate all the knowledge you had to share with us, but as an issue of member safety, i want to make a point about this statement. even if you're an IGF expert, this doesn't make you a legal expert, and certainly not a legal expert in the laws of all 50 states.

this may be perfectly true in your state, but some poor sap reading this post is going to make the mistake of believing that the laws of his state are the same, and take a pinch for needle posession.

anytime you make a blanket legal statement like this about a Federal system with multiple sets of laws, you're giving out misinformation, the kind of misinformation that gets people locked up.

and seriously, when was the last time you heard the police 


> apologize politely for the trouble of questioning you and all that.


this sounds like a lot of wishful thinking. a much more likely scenario is that they act like complete assholes, treat you like some junkie piece of $hit, seize your stuff, and send it to the lab for analysis. many would view a massive human being with a loaded syringe as Probable Cause that the contents were an illegal steroid , lock you up and then send it to the lab. case may get thrown out after test results come back...after you spent the night in jail and $5000.00 on a lawyer. and good luck finding a judge that didn't think this constituted Probable Cause and that anyone should apologize to you for anything.

i am extremely careful giving out advice that may lead to harmful side effects, medical OR legal.

----------


## MMA

great post otherwise

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> On July 20 I got into some pretty intense discussion on another board about IGF-1. I got so rattled with the misinformation that I decided to loose my 13 years of reading on IGF-1 onto that board





> The science is not readily available so I am unable to quote a paper


After 13 years of research, you are unable to quote a single paper to back up anything you've posted?




> I'm no expert I'm just pointing out that the first post may have over dramatized things a little and it wasn't backed up with any evidence.


 Exactly.

----------


## NotSmall

> After 13 years of research, you are unable to quote a single paper to back up anything you've posted?


More often than not real world evidence is more relevant than lab studies.

Are there any studies on site injecting LR3 IGF-1 postworkout in humans? - I have never seen any posted.





> Exactly.


LOL, he also said:



> I still think it's a good and interesting read though.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> More often than not real world evidence is more relevant than lab studies.


Agreed. But isn't it suspicious that after 13 years of research, he hasn't got a single paper to support a single claim he made? 

Also...what kind of "real world evidence" can you find about IGF receptor sensitivity and IGFBP's? How does it feel when your IGF receptors are more sensitive? What does an IGFBP look like when you are training? There is no "real world" evidence on those factors, because they can ONLY be measured in a clinical environment. And those factors are what he's addressing. 

For him to say in one breath that he's got no papers to back what he's saying, and that he's been researching for 13 years is B.S., and some of the papers he claims don't exist are years old already....

For years, "Real World" evidence told us that Androgen Receptors downregulated, right? Everyone knew it, from real world experience, right? It was totally obvious...to everyone. 

Except it was totally wrong, and we now know that AR downregulation is a myth. 

A combination of real world experience and science is best...but to claim that you've been researching something for 13 years and haven't got a single shred of evidence to support your claims in the form of a scientific study seems ingenuous. 

The thing is...I'm not even saying this guy is wrong about everything he's saying...I just can't fathom doing research for 13 years and having nothing to cite to support my claims.

Let me put forth a final question:

How can you have relevant "real world" experience about something that you wouldn't even know was inside you, or even existed, if it were not for the scientific and medical studies and research which found that it exists?

----------


## ss01

> After 13 years of research, you are unable to quote a single paper to back up anything you've posted?
> 
> Exactly.


Ah, thank you for pointing out the great flaw, Anthony. Am I _UNABLE_ to quote a single paper? Or am I _UNWILLING_ to go to the trouble of searching through them a second time around just for your pleasure? And then for what, so that people who misunderstand said papers can start endless arguments with me on details that are not related to what I am actually writing here.

No, that does not interest me. You do a good job of that yourself, and I will leave it to you. I mean, you find the most hidden meanings into otherwise self-explanatory abstracts, yourself, so... yeah, I'll leave it to you. 

Or... Wait... Maybe I do have all these references here on my PC but I keep them for myself, since providing PROOF that what I say is true is worth too much to be done for free.

Yeah maybe it's that. You know something about not doing everything just for the sake of people thinking you are "generous" don't you? Something about paying them bills...

----------


## ss01

> Agreed. But isn't it suspicious that after 13 years of research, he hasn't got a single paper to support a single claim he made? 
> 
> Also...what kind of "real world evidence" can you find about IGF receptor sensitivity and IGFBP's? How does it feel when your IGF receptors are more sensitive? What does an IGFBP look like when you are training? There is no "real world" evidence on those factors, because they can ONLY be measured in a clinical environment. And those factors are what he's addressing. 
> 
> For him to say in one breath that he's got no papers to back what he's saying, and that he's been researching for 13 years is B.S., and some of the papers he claims don't exist are years old already....
> 
> For years, "Real World" evidence told us that Androgen Receptors downregulated, right? Everyone knew it, from real world experience, right? It was totally obvious...to everyone. 
> 
> Except it was totally wrong, and we now know that AR downregulation is a myth. 
> ...


You know, you come across as a scientist would. Slightly arrogant, but otherwise expressing himself with scientific objectivity. Good for you.

Well, for me, I have nothing to prove, see. I know what I know and my paying clients know that I know what I know and that is good enough. 

That *YOU* and everyone else reading the conclusions of some extremely long-winded research FOR FREE would have proof that I know what I know, well what is that worth to me? What kind of pay will I get for posting up the dozens of abstracts pertaining to this? Nothing.

Why then would I do it?

And seriously, you are unable to find the "IGF-1 receptor upregulation triggered by a bout of acute resistance exercise" abstract? Dude... You wouldn't last 5 minutes doing real research if you can't find something so easy to find as this.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> You know, you come across as a scientist would. Slightly arrogant, but otherwise expressing himself with scientific objectivity. Good for you.


I'm actually very arrogant, not just slightly.




> Well, for me, I have nothing to prove, see. I know what I know and my paying clients know that I know what I know and that is good enough.


If you start a thread on a topic, then it's reasonable that people ask you to proove the veracity of your claims. 




> That *YOU* and everyone else reading the conclusions of some extremely long-winded research FOR FREE would have proof that I know what I know, well what is that worth to me? What kind of pay will I get for posting up the dozens of abstracts pertaining to this? Nothing.


Credibility.




> Why then would I do it?


Credibility.




> And seriously, you are unable to find the "_IGF-1 receptor upregulation triggered by a bout of acute resistance exercise_" abstract? Dude... You wouldn't last 5 minutes doing real research if you can't find something so easy to find as this.


Not only can I find it, I've read it already. IN fact, I cited a similar study in my IGF/MGF article ("_Time course of molecular responses of human skeletal muscle to acute bouts of resistance exercise_"):

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=258434

The issue here isn't whether I think you're wrong or right, the issue is that without some kind of references and such, your post is just another post, with nothing to back it up, and should be seen as speculation and conjecture. If you make claims, it's reasonable for people to ask you to at least provide some proof for them, I think.

----------


## ss01

I'm very much OK with that Anthony. Even though it is all 100% correct and way ahead of its time, that post is just a post, you are right. Among those who read it, are those who can read between the lines, and check some facts themselves and they will see that I am RIGHT, and/or that I have done my homework. That's all I need. To put the message across as to who is the true leader of peptide knowledge among bodybuilding circles.

The rest is just fluff. Credibility? Bah, I'll take money and satisfied clients before that any day of the week. I have no pride.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> I'm very much OK with that Anthony. Even though it is all 100% correct and way ahead of its time, that post is just a post, you are right. Among those who read it, are those who can read between the lines, and check some facts themselves and they will see that I am RIGHT, and/or that I have done my homework. That's all I need. To put the message across as to who is the true leader of peptide knowledge among bodybuilding circles.
> 
>  The rest is just fluff. Credibility? Bah, I'll take money and satisfied clients before that any day of the week. I have no pride.


Honestly, it's basically the same information that's out there. Most of it is correct, but it's nothing that isn't on a million AAS boards already. To be a leader in an area, you need to do something that sets you apart. A post with a bunch of information that's already out there, and totally unreferenced, is not going to make you a leader of anything, or likely in anybody's eyes. 

Also....credibility will get you more clients, I think. I charge $200/hour and turn down more clients than I actually take.

----------


## Ironman5151

......

----------


## bigfish

Way to go guys. All us "normal guys" want to know is an estimated mcgs a day of IGF will give us some gut growth. I would love to hear both of you guys response;since it seems both of you feel very passionate (don't think i spell that right) about this.

i will say this: that whole thing about the 60 mcgs to 200 mcgs deal didn't explasin nothing in my opinion. i'm no great researcher by any means but every pinned article I've read on any board says that over 120mcgs is a waste and will cause gut growth. So up until now I was feeling real good about doing 80 mcgs pwo.


PS. We're all on the same team guys; let's work together so we can meet our goals while staying safe.

----------


## bigfish

repost sorry

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Way to go guys. All us "normal guys" want to know is an estimated mcgs a day of IGF will give us some gut growth. I would love to hear both of you guys response;since it seems both of you feel very passionate (don't think i spell that right) about this.
> 
> i will say this: that whole thing about the 60 mcgs to 200 mcgs deal didn't explasin nothing in my opinion. i'm no great researcher by any means but every pinned article I've read on any board says that over 120mcgs is a waste and will cause gut growth. So up until now I was feeling real good about doing 80 mcgs pwo.
> 
> 
> PS. We're all on the same team guys; let's work together so we can meet our goals while staying safe.


I use (*and reccomend) 100mcg of IGF/PWO along with 200mcg of MGF/PWO. The IFBB pro I work with uses 120mcg PWO ( I posted his full peptide protocol here already) and he doesn't have the gut thing going on.

----------


## jerseyboy

> I use (*and reccomend) 100mcg of IGF/PWO along with 200mcg of MGF/PWO. The IFBB pro I work with uses 120mcg PWO ( I posted his full peptide protocol here already) and he doesn't have the gut thing going on.


Ok well that's an IFBB pro. What about the average 200lb guy like me who has multiple cycles under his belt including GH, slin and IGF. The last IGF cycle I did was 80mcg's run with GH and slin. Now do I have to run 80 or more now or can I get away with dropping to a lower dose. I'm struggling for every pound at this point because I wasn't genetically gifted and am looking for new cell growth.

----------


## bigfish

Thanks Mr.roberts. I never planned on doing more than 80 mcgs pwo and 40 on non workout days. I was told that unless your 240+ and done about ten IGF cycles that there's no need to. I am interested in MGF. I have never used because I can't find any good info on it. Mr.roberts I did get your book but unfortunately it doesn't say anything about it; could you please direct me to some info.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Ok well that's an IFBB pro. What about the average 200lb guy like me who has multiple cycles under his belt including GH, slin and IGF. The last IGF cycle I did was 80mcg's run with GH and slin. Now do I have to run 80 or more now or can I get away with dropping to a lower dose. I'm struggling for every pound at this point because I wasn't genetically gifted and am looking for new cell growth.


I would run 80-100mcg if I were you. I'm your weight (5'7" though), and t I run 100mcg/day. 80mcg will be enough to get you looking fine for Temps and Joeys next weekend though.




> Thanks Mr.roberts. I never planned on doing more than 80 mcgs pwo and 40 on non workout days. I was told that unless your 240+ and done about ten IGF cycles that there's no need to. I am interested in MGF. I have never used because I can't find any good info on it. Mr.roberts I did get your book but unfortunately it doesn't say anything about it; could you please direct me to some info.


I wrote the book before MGF was really available. Check this out for IGF and MGF info though:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=258434
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ht=mgf+roberts

----------


## plzr8

> 80mcg will be enough to get you looking fine for Temps and Joeys next weekend though.


 :LOL:   :LOL:   :LOL:  

ar, hear about the sh*t that went down at XL on saturday?

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> ar, hear about the sh*t that went down at XL on saturday?


NO...I'm old (29)...I don't go to places like that...I don't even know anyone who does...

When I go to a bar, it's "Mc" something or "O" something. 

What happened Saturday? Did someone try to light a cigarette inside, and all of the hairgel and hairspray on the guidos and guidettes set off a fire?

----------


## plzr8

> NO...I'm old (29)...I don't go to places like that...I don't even know anyone who does...
> 
> When I go to a bar, it's "Mc" something or "O" something. 
> 
> What happened Saturday? Did someone try to light a cigarette inside, and all of the hairgel and hairspray on the guidos and guidettes set off a fire?


lol settle down old man, didnt mean to ruffle your feathers  :LOL:  

nah some drunken fight resulted in 1 dead body courtesy of 4 bullets...tragic & pointless

----------


## jerseyboy

Man where you been? Temps closed up like 3 years ago. I'm 36 now so I very rarely go to clubs but I'll probably venture over to Surf Club once or twice this year. I don't even drink but I still like the music and the hotties in bikinis.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Man where you been? Temps closed up like 3 years ago. I'm 36 now so I very rarely go to clubs but I'll probably venture over to Surf Club once or twice this year. I don't even drink but I still like the music and the hotties in bikinis.



Not my thing, all around.

----------


## Gear

All my boys use and have been using 80mcg+, many use 100mcg+ and never had this gut problem. One of them is almost pro, so lets count him out, but the rest of them are normal every day gym junkies just like the rest of us. Actually, a friend of mine used IGF 4 weeks ON/OFF for 8 months, he used 100mcg and never had a problem either. I don't know about this gut thing, everyone if different perhaps.

-Gear

----------


## WEBB

i use 100mcg ed for 4 weeks on 4 weeks off 4 weeks on 4 months off...no gut problem here just absolutely love it...great gains and have no problems other than headaches when i use it pre comp...

----------


## bigfish

Thanks for the links

----------


## Gear

Webb,

I was thinking of running higher doses such as 120mcg. Are the benefits worth it when compared to say 60mcg? I ask because I am assuming you have taken both lower and higher doses.

-Gear

----------


## The Natural

Well... I have to admit that ss01 has some points, even though you manhandled him Anthony Roberts.  :Smilie: 

I have done one lr3 IGF-1 cycle on 50mcg ED for 6 weeks. in my biceps before training... (I know realise I was stupid)
But now, a year later, I have grown my biceps MUCH more than any other bodypart. How can this be, if lr3 works for the whole body?

How should I shoot IGF then? How much?
Should I do site injections PWO on the bodyparts trained?

My overall strenght is up... but most noticeable on biceps.

Just had to get some answers outta you expert guys!  :Big Grin: 

Thanks for any help.  :Smilie:

----------


## Gear

> Well... I have to admit that ss01 has some points, even though you manhandled him Anthony Roberts. 
> 
> I have done one lr3 IGF-1 cycle on 50mcg ED for 6 weeks. in my biceps before training... (I know realise I was stupid)
> But now, a year later, I have grown my biceps MUCH more than any other bodypart. How can this be, if lr3 works for the whole body?
> 
> How should I shoot IGF then? How much?
> Should I do site injections PWO on the bodyparts trained?
> 
> My overall strenght is up... but most noticeable on biceps.
> ...


Even though some claim LR3 can help bring up lagging parts, it really shouldn't do that. You can still shoot it in your biceps if you like. I would hit my bis, tris or delts PWO, but you don't necessaraly have to shoot in the body part you just worked. As for how much you should take, well that really ***ends on the person, but I believe not matter what you use you should always start of on a low dose and only increase the dose if you feel its necessary.

-Gear

----------


## ss01

> Honestly, it's basically the same information that's out there. Most of it is correct, but it's nothing that isn't on a million AAS boards already. To be a leader in an area, you need to do something that sets you apart. A post with a bunch of information that's already out there, and totally unreferenced, is not going to make you a leader of anything, or likely in anybody's eyes. 
> 
> Also....credibility will get you more clients, I think. I charge $200/hour and turn down more clients than I actually take.


Uh, dude. I knew everything on the stuff before you even knew the existence of IGF-1. Or was it back when you were calling it "useless"? Whichever it is, the information that is out there on the boards, that is correct, IS THERE BECAUSE *I* DID THE FVCKING RESEARCH AND *I* POSTED IT UP. The others took it from me, so yeah I am the leader. And you, well you are... "Anthony Roberts"...  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## ss01

> All my boys use and have been using 80mcg+, many use 100mcg+ and never had this gut problem. One of them is almost pro, so lets count him out, but the rest of them are normal every day gym junkies just like the rest of us. Actually, a friend of mine used IGF 4 weeks ON/OFF for 8 months, he used 100mcg and never had a problem either. I don't know about this gut thing, everyone if different perhaps.
> 
> -Gear


Well, Ronnie Coleman and other big pros got the guts from peptides. It is from GH & insulin , which together trigger the release of IGF-1 into the bloodstream. This combo also triggers the release of IGF-2 into the bloodstream and it now seems possible that this latter be more responsible for gut growth than IGF-1, which would be good news for all users. Still, prudence is warranted. The results off IGF-1 can take a long time to fully materialize, and it is active on almost all cells in the body, so writing off gut growth completely is scientifically unsound, unless some new research proves it.





> Well... I have to admit that ss01 has some points, even though you manhandled him Anthony Roberts. 
> 
> I have done one lr3 IGF-1 cycle on 50mcg ED for 6 weeks. in my biceps before training... (I know realise I was stupid)
> But now, a year later, I have grown my biceps MUCH more than any other bodypart. How can this be, if lr3 works for the whole body?
> 
> How should I shoot IGF then? How much?
> Should I do site injections PWO on the bodyparts trained?
> 
> My overall strenght is up... but most noticeable on biceps.
> ...


If you think he "manhandled" me, then you need a bit of a reality check, buddy. That being said, your results are another example of how long it can take to see the full effects from IGF-1. So, what if gut growth is real but takes a couple years to show up? All the guys doing the 200mcg thing are going to be unhappy ... eventually. Hey and by then they will be able to blame anything at all.[/quote]

----------


## rodge

> And you, well you are... "Anthony Roberts"...


no he is not, even that is a lie  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

-rodge

----------


## ss01

I know, that is why I put that between quotes.

----------


## jerseyboy

Actually I've been reading on another board that mixing GH and slin in the same pin and going IM PWO can help with site growth also. It has been said that it actually works better than IGF for that purpose.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Uh, dude. I knew everything on the stuff before you even knew the existence of IGF-1. Or was it back when you were calling it "useless"? Whichever it is, the information that is out there on the boards, that is correct, IS THERE BECAUSE *I* DID THE FVCKING RESEARCH AND *I* POSTED IT UP. The others took it from me, so yeah I am the leader. And you, well you are... "Anthony Roberts"...


I guess. I knew about it in 1996 when TC wrote about it for MM2k, actually. Reality check...you aren't a leader...you're another guy on the internet.

As for "my name in quotes" that's been explained a million times already, "ss01" (which I guess is your real name)..but I suppose you earn $200 an hour just like I do, talking about PEDs, right? Because you're the leader....who everyone took all their research from (oddly, since every decent article on IGF actually has references and you never post any). 
The reality is you're another guy posting on the 'net, and that's all. There's half a dozen people who earn their living (in the world) like I do, and you're not one of them.

HBO has called me to talk about IGF, a radio show has had me on the air to talk about IGF, I've written a book on it, and GQ has called me to talk about IGF. When you've got those credentials, then maybe you can claim to be....something more than another guy on the 'net. Which is exactly what you are, dispite claiming otherwise.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> I guess. I knew about it in 1996 when TC wrote about it for MM2k, actually. Reality check...you aren't a leader...you're another guy on the internet.
> 
> As for "my name in quotes" that's been explained a million times already, "ss01" (which I guess is your real name)..but I suppose you earn $200 an hour just like I do, talking about PEDs, right? Because you're the leader....who everyone took all their research from (oddly, since every decent article on IGF actually has references and you never post any). 
> The reality is you're another guy posting on the 'net, and that's all. There's half a dozen people who earn their living (in the world) like I do, and you're not one of them.
> 
> HBO has called me to talk about IGF, a radio show has had me on the air to talk about IGF, I've written a book on it, and GQ has called me to talk about IGF. When you've got those credentials, then maybe you can claim to be....something more than another guy on the 'net. Which is exactly what you are, dispite claiming otherwise.


 :Owned:  

ss01... while ive been following your research I must say you really dont have any references posted. At all...

----------


## ss01

> I guess. I knew about it in 1996 when TC wrote about it for MM2k, actually. Reality check...you aren't a leader...you're another guy on the internet.
> 
> As for "my name in quotes" that's been explained a million times already, "ss01" (which I guess is your real name)..but I suppose you earn $200 an hour just like I do, talking about PEDs, right? Because you're the leader....who everyone took all their research from (oddly, since every decent article on IGF actually has references and you never post any). 
> The reality is you're another guy posting on the 'net, and that's all. There's half a dozen people who earn their living (in the world) like I do, and you're not one of them.
> 
> HBO has called me to talk about IGF, a radio show has had me on the air to talk about IGF, I've written a book on it, and GQ has called me to talk about IGF. When you've got those credentials, then maybe you can claim to be....something more than another guy on the 'net. Which is exactly what you are, dispite claiming otherwise.


Ah, so those are credentials huh.  :Hmmmm:  

Being able to fool the majority into thinking you know your stuff is such a great accomplishment, I must hand it to you, boy.

I knew about IGF-1 in 1992 when I was talking with GroPep researchers about their LR3. Doesn't mean I brag about "who" I am and use it to overcharge unsuspecting, uneducated people and just spew misinformation at them like gospel. And so you have a book published, and HBO and GQ. Yippdi-do. Hey did you see, there was a special TV show about Greg Valentino, I'm sure that means he is superstar material and one of the greatest bodybuilders of all time.  :What?:

----------


## ss01

> ss01... while ive been following your research I must say you really dont have any references posted. At all...


I don't and there is a reason why I don't. So?  :Icon Rolleyes: 

There are some true scientists behind me, unlike "Anthony Roberts" who has no formal education in the field, who back up EVERYTHING I write. Funny huh? So yea, my posts are without references. They don't need any.

If you need references, I'm sure you love "Anthony Roberts" who can use any unrelated research on anything as a reference and pull a way to try and make it seem like a "reference" out of his ass and it sticks for people who don't know any better. Now THAT is a true feat. Magic, really.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> There are some true scientists behind me


None of which you'll name, and none of which will come here to back you up, I'm sure. What seperates you from anyone else on the 'net? Nothing, except the claim that you're the "leader" and have been doing this for years, blah blah blah....you're the same as everyone else on the 'net, but you claim otherwise, and have no proof. Ok...

I (co)wrote an article with a doctor (it's a sticky here)...have you? I'm sure you have. You're the leader....right?

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> I don't and there is a reason why I don't. So? 
> 
> There are some true scientists behind me, unlike "Anthony Roberts" who has no formal education in the field, who back up EVERYTHING I write. Funny huh? So yea, my posts are without references. They don't need any.
> 
> If you need references, I'm sure you love "Anthony Roberts" who can use any unrelated research on anything as a reference and pull a way to try and make it seem like a "reference" out of his ass and it sticks for people who don't know any better. Now THAT is a true feat. Magic, really.


Im sorry, but even a high school research paper needs references... and not only that, references show that you have a foundation of your theorys... other wise like Mr. Roberts said... youll just become another guy on the net. 

Bottom line is... if you dont have references and claim you dont need any... than you wind up sounding like a crack pot.

----------


## ginkobulloba

Well this is about the 1000th thread I've seen with a certain industry leader that has turned into another ego pissing match. Aside from that, there is some good information in this thread.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Well this is about the 1000th thread I've seen with a certain industry leader that has turned into another ego pissing match. Aside from that, there is some good information in this thread.


Welcome to the internet. 

Virtually every top name in this industry, or any related industry has done the same. Bill Roberts, Pat Arnold, etc, etc, etc...have all done the same thing...Cosgrove, Cressey, Heffernan, Berardi, etc...it doesn't matter who you are...if someone can stop playing WarCraft long enough to attack you on the 'net , they will, even if they've got nothing to back it up and you've got everything. 

Honestly...literally every industry leader (diet, steroids , training, etc...) has done the same thing, more than once....and it's usually because of the same reason...it's garbage.

----------


## ss01

Absolutely, that's why your bashing my thread is not something I will worry about at all. It comes with being what I am.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

I'm not bashing the thread per se...I'm just pointing out that you've come along, as a guy who isn't published, has no credentials, and doesn't feel the need to cite any references for any claims he makes, and is posting under an anonymous name on a steroid discussion board, and claiming to be a leader in this industry. It's a bit silly, to be totally honest...and if you were a leader in the industry, surely someone would actually know who you are, and in what way you are a leader, but nobody here actually knows who the hell you are, or why you'd make such a claim. No matter how respected you are on message boards, you aren't an industry leader until you actually lead the industry. Message board respect is...not too much, really. And being "known" and "published" (or even a self proclaimed industry leader) on the internet is like losing your virginity to your sister...true, you're not a virgin any more...but I wouldn't brag about it.

----------


## ss01

Yes well this is not the be-all, end-all board on the 'Net and boards aren't the be-all, end-all of endocrinology, so... This is a tiny pond, Anthony. One of many many small ponds, and there is a big sea out there... And some of us need to protect their true identity. Who knows, maybe I am published, but prefer to post anonymously for the benefit of those with enough ability to discern well dressed-up BS from true, even reference-free, science.  :Wink:

----------


## The Natural

> If you think he "manhandled" me, then you need a bit of a reality check, buddy. That being said, your results are another example of how long it can take to see the full effects from IGF-1. So, what if gut growth is real but takes a couple years to show up? All the guys doing the 200mcg thing are going to be unhappy ... eventually. Hey and by then they will be able to blame anything at all.


I did only 50mcg ED, and I don't think I am gonna do any more than 80...
I also shot in my shoulders (forgot to mention that... sorry).
And when I think about it, I actually didn't get any stronger/bigger there, compared to the other bodyparts. Hmmmm...  :Hmmmm:  

The reason I think he "manhandled" you, is as *RoadToRecovery* said:




> Im sorry, but even a high school research paper needs references... and not only that, references show that you have a foundation of your theorys... other wise like Mr. Roberts said... youll just become another guy on the net. 
> 
> Bottom line is... if you dont have references and claim you dont need any... than you wind up sounding like a crack pot.


Hey, bro. I didn't mean to disrespect you. But we need something to back up your info.  :Smilie:

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Yes well this is not the be-all, end-all board on the 'Net and boards aren't the be-all, end-all of endocrinology, so... This is a tiny pond, Anthony. One of many many small ponds, and there is a big sea out there... And some of us need to protect their true identity. Who knows, maybe I am published, but prefer to post anonymously for the benefit of those with enough ability to discern well dressed-up BS from true, even reference-free, science.


Yes...some people need to protect their identity. I can not, however...think of one industry leader (as you claimed you are) who needs to protect their identity.

How can you lead an industry anonymously? 

All hail our anonymous leader and his unreferenced and unsupported claims!

----------


## MrNice

> Yes...some people need to protect their identity. I can not, however...think of one industry leader (as you claimed you are) who needs to protect their identity.
> 
> How can you lead an industry anonymously? 
> 
> All hail our anonymous leader and his unreferenced and unsupported claims!


He could use a bunch of random references which really have very little to do with anything and then present it as a referenced and supported work couldn't he?


like this piece for example

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199885

2,4-Dinitrophenol pharmacologically promotes retinal detachment in rabbits
(thanks to Conciliator for pointing this out recently)

Or indeed, referencing the same study twice to pad out your references

19. Energy substrate requirements for survival of rat retinal cells in culture: the importance of glucose and monocarboxylates.J Neurochem. 2005 May;93(3):686-97.
22. Energy substrate requirements for survival of rat retinal cells in culture: the importance of glucose and monocarboxylates.
J Neurochem. 2005 May;93(3):686-97

Are you listening SS01?

This is how you support and reference a work ok?

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> He could use a bunch of random references which really have very little to do with anything and then present it as a referenced and supported work couldn't he?
> 
> 
> like this piece for example
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199885
> 
> 2,4-Dinitrophenol pharmacologically promotes retinal detachment in rabbits
> (thanks to Conciliator for pointing this out recently)
> ...


I used the same reference 2x and listed it 2x. It was a mistake, and the editor didn't catch it. My bad. Remember, I wrote that book over 2 years ago, and listed several references out of order or more than once, though I actually listed them...which is different than saying something without a single reference.

Also....funny that "Concillator" knows my work on DNP so well that he knows every reference, right? Because he's trying to promote himself as a DNP expert now....an "expert" who just basically reads my work and passes it off as his expertise. I love on BB.com when he passed off Bill Roberts ideas as his own on AR regulation too.

----------


## J-41-sd

if you were to reconsitute it with bw would it be safe to assume that one could use a slin needle to inject into smaller muscles like bi's tri's and delts and say a 23g on glutes and quads?

----------


## ss01

> I used the same reference 2x and listed it 2x. It was a mistake, and the editor didn't catch it. My bad. Remember, I wrote that book over 2 years ago, and listed several references out of order or more than once, though I actually listed them...which is different than saying something without a single reference.
> 
> Also....funny that "Concillator" knows my work on DNP so well that he knows every reference, right? Because he's trying to promote himself as a DNP expert now....an "expert" who just basically reads my work and passes it off as his expertise. I love on BB.com when he passed off Bill Roberts ideas as his own on AR regulation too.


Ah, that is someone we will agree on, AR. He is in your league.

----------


## akrosmegas

Must be the right pro's reading this thread to comment on this.

FDA approved rhIGF-1, the get-it-by-prescription type (Increlex), is dosed at levels off the charts compared to LR3 IGF. Some medical trials test at 0.05 to 0.10 mg/kg/day for months at a time with no significant side effects. For a 220 pounder, that's 5,000 - 10,000 mcg/day! Maybe 100 to 200 times more than typical LR3IGF doses, no talk about receptor down regulation, sides, etc. Maybe it has to do with purity, or ? . . . . (binding proteins can't explain it all, or maybe not at all)?

But cost! The cheapest LR3IGF I've seen is $95/mg (haven't tried it so don't know if it's any good). Increlex, the presciption IGF, based on approx one year old costs (dated June 5, 2006) was $90 for a 36 mg vial ($2.50/mg). Medical grade regular rhIGF-1 at only $2.50/mg (not a typo) versus $95/mg? Get a presciption.

----------


## fossilfuel7

> Must be the right pro's reading this thread to comment on this.
> 
> FDA approved rhIGF-1, the get-it-by-prescription type (Increlex), is dosed at levels off the charts compared to LR3 IGF. Some medical trials test at 0.05 to 0.10 mg/kg/day for months at a time with no significant side effects. For a 220 pounder, that's 5,000 - 10,000 mcg/day! Maybe 100 to 200 times more than typical LR3IGF doses, no talk about receptor down regulation, sides, etc. Maybe it has to do with purity, or ? . . . . (binding proteins can't explain it all, or maybe not at all)?
> 
> But cost! The cheapest LR3IGF I've seen is $95/mg (haven't tried it so don't know if it's any good). Increlex, the presciption IGF, based on approx one year old costs (dated June 5, 2006) was $90 for a 36 mg vial ($2.50/mg). Medical grade regular rhIGF-1 at only $2.50/mg (not a typo) versus $95/mg? Get a presciption.



Is this true??...if it is then there is so much hype,thread parroting and BS going on about lr3IGF that these chem sites sell that it sickens me.

This does not surprise me at all. I have used so called IGF at 50 mcg ed, from two different research chem sites and noticed absolutley NOTHING.

My opinion is that the shiznit(IGFlr3) with the blue tops that is supposedly coming out of China that all these chem sites sell is worthless.

The reason you may ask....why of course....because money is the root of all evil :Evil2:  

I have personally had it with the chem sites and will never try IGF again unless it is from a pharmacy(fat chance I know).

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## NotSmall

> The reason you may ask....why of course....because money is the root of all evil


Actually the _love_ of money is the root of all evil. :Wink/Grin:

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## akrosmegas

> Is this true??...


Read this one for cost and even higher dosing (the one yr old, June 2006 data).
http://trca.client.shareholder.com/R...leaseID=199466

Read this one for clinical trial dosing
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...&dopt=Abstract

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## akrosmegas

:Hmmmm:  Here's what I found out so far. The $90/36 mg vial was for Iplex, not Increlex. Iplex is a 50/50 blend by weight of IGF-1 and IGFBP-3. So, based on weight of IGF-1 only, it was more like $5.00/mg a yr ago. But by April of this yr it had dropped in price to $72.00/36 mg vial so $4.00/mg for IGF-1. Then, the company that makes Increlex wins a patent infringment lawsuit against Iplex and shuts them down. So now you can only get Increlex which was $562.50 for a 40 mg vial a year ago. $14.00/mg. Still a lot cheaper than the typical $100 and up per mg for LR3 IGF-1.

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## RedBaron

It is true that at least one brand of huIGF-1 has been approved for human use and is available by prescription ... ONLY for growth deficient children though. They have found it in trials to be a great alternative to growth hormone therapy for many children.

It is also true that you would have to take it in much larger doses than we are used to discussing with LR3, but that has always been the case. That was one of the draws to LR3 ... NOT having to take large doses to see results. I have used huIGF-1 in the past as have many other bodybuilders. The results were pretty much a mixed bag. In the end, it seemed that if you injected a large enough dose into a freshly worked muscle group, you could experience some local growth. It was expensive enough and the results meager enough that it was cast aside as a waste of time and money. While that wasn't really the whole story, it is true that it was a LOT of money for a little gain.

The problem right now at least with the current offerings of huIGF-1 is that there isn't a way for a normal adult to get a prescription. As mentioned, the ONLY approved use right now is for growth deficient children. I haven't heard of any other approved use, and until there is a legal nod to do so, no legitimate doctor would be able to write a prescription for a normal adult.

The prices are cheaper because it is manufactured in quantity. The story behind LR3 prices are based on the fact that there really isn't that much Gropep LR3 IGF-1 floating around. There are tons of Chinese rip-offs of it (and some outright Chinese phoneys of it), but as far as the real deal, it is made in small quantities for use in research. That is why the cost remains high. It wasn't intended for use in humans, and it really doesn't take that much of it to test on a cell culture. If it were a human-grade product made for a large enough segment of society, then the manufacture price would go down. Whether or not the street price would go down would ***end entirely on the greed of all parties along the chain. Drug manufacturers are in the business to make money. If you look at who consistently pulls in the glowing quarterly stock-holder reports, drug companies more times than not are right there at the top. Most of the time, you pay what you pay because they can get away with charging you that much ... it really has little to do with the actual cost of manufacture.

As far as testing and research, huIGF-1 has all kinds of potential benefits ... diabetes, nerve regeneration, etc., etc. for adults. Given the state of medicine and the red tape associated with it though, I wouldn't hold my breath for it to become available for expanded uses anytime soon. Maybe one day we will shake the stigma of using hormones and peptides to enjoy better health longer, increase our life expectancy, and to improve physical performance ... but given the current political and medical climate that we all have to work within, it isn't going to happen now.

----------


## goose

WoW great to see you post RED.

As always its a great *pleasure to read any of your posts.Your a legend.*

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## akrosmegas

Thanks RedBaron. The subject continues to interest me though so I'd like to run with it some more, not to be disrespectful, but to talk about it. My interest stems from having had acr*****ly yrs ago (caused by a pituitary tumor), plus a family member has ALS where IGF-1 holds potential as a therapy (which is my main motivation for being on this board in the first place, to learn what people using LR3IGF have to say about it).

You're absolutely correct that short stature in children is the primary use for rhIGF-1, but a doctor can legitimately prescribe it off-label for other indications, assuming such a doctor can be found. And that's the problem - almost a show-stopper, and why we're looking to LR3IGF. rhIGF is used in mega-doses in clinical trials (like I said above, up to 10 mg/day). I read about sides on these boards from people using 100 mcg. So when I think about ramping LR3IGF up to 1 mg/day . . . . . . You get the picture.

As to manufacturing LR3, GroPep is the biggest manufacturer in the world, and they sell it by the bucket load for agricultural uses, as well as for cell culture manufacturing (i.e., like to feed bacteria that make other drugs). GroPep's product is used in the manufacture of other FDA approved drugs. They make far more LR3IGF-1 (by orders of magnitude)than the manufacturer of rhIGF-1 (Increlex who incidentally is the only one approved by the FDA so they make all that's used via the prescription route). So I think LR3 has a greater economy of scale the rhIGF-1 in terms of manufacturing cost. Retail cost for LR3IGF - you hit the nail on the head when you said "you pay what you pay because they can get away with charging you that much".

Here's quote from a GroPep paper about LR3IGF-1 in cmparison to rhIGF-1 (http://biopharmaceuticals.novozymes....%c2%aer3igf-i/ and then download their pdf file called "LONG®R3IGF-I Safety Review: Addressing the use of LONG®R3IGF-I in biopharmaceutical manufacture".

_When LONG®R3IGF-I is administered into the circulation of experimental animals there is partial retention of the potency ratio seen in cells compared to IGF-I, at the same time as a reduction in the half-life, although in some models of IGF action LONG®R3IGF-I is less potent than IGF-I. The experimental data shows that LONG®R3IGF-I clearance rate in animals is about 10-fold higher than that of IGF-I as a result of low binding to circulating IGF binding proteins. Despite the higher clearance rate LONG®R3IGF-I is more potent than IGF-I in a number of physiological and metabolic responses in animal models. The main response is a transient hypoglycaemia.

The potency difference between LONG®R3IGF-I and IGF-I is lower in vivo compared to cultured cells. This means that the effective dose of LONG®R3IGF-I is similar to that of IGF-I administered in clinical trials and as a therapeutic and that the potential for LONG®R3IGF-I to present a risk to human health must be considered similar to that of IGF-I itself._

GroPep is the gold standard, and if I knew I had their product, I'd worry less. And if we could by it for the prices GroPep's primary customers pay . . . . . I doubt it would be more than rhIGF-1 since the FDA isn't in GroPep's loop.

----------


## fossilfuel7

> It is true that at least one brand of huIGF-1 has been approved for human use and is available by prescription ... ONLY for growth deficient children though. They have found it in trials to be a great alternative to growth hormone therapy for many children.
> 
> It is also true that you would have to take it in much larger doses than we are used to discussing with LR3, but that has always been the case. That was one of the draws to LR3 ... NOT having to take large doses to see results. I have used huIGF-1 in the past as have many other bodybuilders. The results were pretty much a mixed bag. In the end, it seemed that if you injected a large enough dose into a freshly worked muscle group, you could experience some local growth. It was expensive enough and the results meager enough that it was cast aside as a waste of time and money. While that wasn't really the whole story, it is true that it was a LOT of money for a little gain.
> 
> The problem right now at least with the current offerings of huIGF-1 is that there isn't a way for a normal adult to get a prescription. As mentioned, the ONLY approved use right now is for growth deficient children. I haven't heard of any other approved use, and until there is a legal nod to do so, no legitimate doctor would be able to write a prescription for a normal adult.
> 
> The prices are cheaper because it is manufactured in quantity. The story behind LR3 prices are based on the fact that there really isn't that much Gropep LR3 IGF-1 floating around. There are tons of Chinese rip-offs of it (and some outright Chinese phoneys of it), but as far as the real deal, it is made in small quantities for use in research. That is why the cost remains high. It wasn't intended for use in humans, and it really doesn't take that much of it to test on a cell culture. If it were a human-grade product made for a large enough segment of society, then the manufacture price would go down. Whether or not the street price would go down would ***end entirely on the greed of all parties along the chain. Drug manufacturers are in the business to make money. If you look at who consistently pulls in the glowing quarterly stock-holder reports, drug companies more times than not are right there at the top. Most of the time, you pay what you pay because they can get away with charging you that much ... it really has little to do with the actual cost of manufacture.
> 
> As far as testing and research, huIGF-1 has all kinds of potential benefits ... diabetes, nerve regeneration, etc., etc. for adults. Given the state of medicine and the red tape associated with it though, I wouldn't hold my breath for it to become available for expanded uses anytime soon. Maybe one day we will shake the stigma of using hormones and peptides to enjoy better health longer, increase our life expectancy, and to improve physical performance ... but given the current political and medical climate that we all have to work within, it isn't going to happen now.


WOW! Now that's what I call insight.

Great to see you posting Redbaron.

----------


## goose

> WOW! Now that's what I call insight.
> 
> Great to see you posting Redbaron.


 
I know!!! Redbaron is my hero :7up:  He lifts heavy.

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## fossilfuel7

> I know!!! Redbaron is my hero He lifts heavy.



 :LOL:  Right on bro!

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## ss01

Always a pleasure to read your posts, RedBaron.  :Smilie:

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Ah, that is someone we will agree on, AR. He is in your league.


People in my league are people who have written books on this subject. People in my league are people who design original supplements. You and the internet forum regulars and other similar people are in each other's league, not mine. 

You don't get into my league writing posts, you get into it by writing books, and you don't get there by writing about supplements, you get there by designing them. You're not in Henry Ford's league because you can drive a car, you're in it when you can invent one.

You're not in my league, he isn't either, and neither of you are even playing the same sport, much less in my league.

----------


## NotSmall

> People in my league are people who have written books on this subject. People in my league are people who design original supplements. You and the internet forum regulars and other similar people are in each other's league, not mine. 
> 
> You don't get into my league writing posts, you get into it by writing books, and you don't get there by writing about supplements, you get there by designing them. You're not in Henry Ford's league because you can drive a car, you're in it when you can invent one.
> 
> You're not in my league, he isn't either, and neither of you are even playing the same sport, much less in my league.


Your self adoration revolts me.

----------


## fossilfuel7

> Your self adoration revolts me.



 :Bbfalldownlaugh:  

 :ROFLOL:  

 :2biggrininvasion:

----------


## MrNice

> People in my league are people who have written books on this subject. People in my league are people who design original supplements. You and the internet forum regulars and other similar people are in each other's league, not mine. 
> 
> You don't get into my league writing posts, you get into it by writing books, and you don't get there by writing about supplements, you get there by designing them. You're not in Henry Ford's league because you can drive a car, you're in it when you can invent one.
> 
> You're not in my league, he isn't either, and neither of you are even playing the same sport, much less in my league.


lol!

You're such a joke

----------


## MrNice

> People in my league are people who have written books on this subject. People in my league are people who design original supplements. You and the internet forum regulars and other similar people are in each other's league, not mine. 
> 
> You don't get into my league writing posts, you get into it by writing books, and you don't get there by writing about supplements, you get there by designing them. You're not in Henry Ford's league because you can drive a car, you're in it when you can invent one.
> 
> You're not in my league, he isn't either, and neither of you are even playing the same sport, much less in my league.


You wrote a book, using google. Not impressive.
You "designed" a supplement, after hearing about the only ingredient from someone else. Not impressive.

You copy people, how does this put you in some sort of super league of internet gurus?

IMO, This dude is in your league.

----------


## rodge

> You wrote a book, using google. Not impressive.
> You "designed" a supplement, after hearing about the only ingredient from someone else. Not impressive.
> 
> You copy people, how does this put you in some sort of super league of internet gurus?
> 
> IMO, This dude is in your league.


 :Bbfalldownlaugh:  

-rodge

----------


## fossilfuel7

> You wrote a book, using google. Not impressive.
> You "designed" a supplement, after hearing about the only ingredient from someone else. Not impressive.
> 
> You copy people, how does this put you in some sort of super league of internet gurus?
> 
> IMO, This dude is in your league.




LMAO

 :0jackson:   :0jackson:   :0jackson:   :0jackson:

----------


## ss01

> You wrote a book, using google. Not impressive.
> You "designed" a supplement, after hearing about the only ingredient from someone else. Not impressive.
> 
> You copy people, how does this put you in some sort of super league of internet gurus?
> 
> IMO, This dude is in your league.


OOOOOH, that is...








SO RIGHT!  :1laugh:

----------


## Gear

Guys, keep it cool. If this thread gets out of hand, I will close it.

-Gear

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> You wrote a book, using google. Not impressive.
> You "designed" a supplement, after hearing about the only ingredient from someone else. Not impressive.
> 
> You copy people, how does this put you in some sort of super league of internet gurus?


Funny...only a half dozen people in the world have done what I have. What sets me apart? 

Why don't you do 1/2 of the things I have, then ask me the same thing.

If you could do it...you would. But you can't. So you rant.

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## MrNice

Or maybe we have different goals, how about that one genius?

Maybe I've done stuff that less people in the world have done, you know nothing about me. I know enough about you to know what you've accomplished, you got lucky. End of story.

----------


## jerseyboy

> Guys, keep it cool. If this thread gets out of hand, I will close it.
> 
> -Gear


Shoulda been closed already. This thread is helping no one.

----------


## Gear

> Shoulda been closed already. This thread is helping no one.


roger that.

-Gear

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## Gear

This thread has gone completely off topic and is now closed due to your immiture arguments.

-Gear

----------

