# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > DIET AND NUTRITION >  new PWO ideas

## 24labor

I've been using fruit lately, but just curious about apple sauce, plain old sugar or bread(anytype). Since it dosent matter what type of carb you use these should be good right?

----------


## SwoleCat

Fruit (fructose) is pointless PWO, as this gets stored in the liver, and then as fat once the liver is full. This does nothing to replinish muscle glycogen and begin the repair process. 


~SC~

----------


## chest6

Lately this is what I changed to..

Lil more than a cup of skim milk, 40g whey and 1 cup of oats. Only thing I was worried about was fat from oats..but its only 6g its probably nothing to worry about.

----------


## AnabolicAndre

dextrose gives me a wicked headache... 

so, i have done 40g maltodextrin and 40g dextrose

----------


## jdh

in my opinion 6g of fat dont sound like a lot but as far as your first pwo goes you dont want to slow the digestion by adding any fat, keep it as close to zero as possible. for your second pwo you can get away with a few grams.

----------


## 24labor

> Fruit (fructose) is pointless PWO, as this gets stored in the liver, and then as fat once the liver is full. This does nothing to replinish muscle glycogen and begin the repair process. 
> 
> 
> ~SC~


didnt think so been using it for today and yesterday think I might just go with oats and milk

----------


## SwoleCat

I love my dextrose, more for me!

~SC~

----------


## kaptainkeezy04

> I love my dextrose, more for me!
> 
> ~SC~


ditto...swole how many avatars do you have? p.s. i like the one you have now and the front double bis in the iverson jersey.

----------


## chest6

I love the dex too..I was just seeing how I would react to the oats and milk just havent really been doing it long enough to really notice.

response to keezy..Iverson jersey and one with open shirt where you look 260-270 I think look the best. That contest one is pretty badass too..done before i sound more gay

----------


## steve0

im useing whey and oats and i have been for a while

----------


## Kurz

never undrestood the whole oats and milk PW thing....save that for your meal if you want....get yourself some dext and whey, or vitargo and whey, or even white bread/bagels.........

----------


## Giantz11

> never undrestood the whole oats and milk PW thing....save that for your meal if you want....get yourself some dext and whey, or vitargo and whey, or even white bread/bagels.........


Why don't you understand it?

----------


## Dally

> Why don't you understand it?



thats so damn rude giantz....I can't believe you...its like you'd make fun of a leper...for having leprosy.



shame on YOU.




(call me)

----------


## Giantz11

> thats so damn rude giantz....I can't believe you...its like you make fun of a leper...for having leprosy.
> 
> 
> 
> shame on YOU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (call me)


Sorry......





Are you back to being "fully" functional?

----------


## Kurz

just never understood why you want slow release, fibers and fats? Just my .02...not saying its wrong bro......to each his own

----------


## Dally

> Sorry......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you back to being "fully" functional?



hey...its not my fault OK?


you just don't turn me on anymore......THERE I SAID IT!! 


you were great lastnight tho....so.

 :Hmmmm:

----------


## SwoleCat

> ditto...swole how many avatars do you have? p.s. i like the one you have now and the front double bis in the iverson jersey.



Shit bro, I have a hard-drive full of pics.  :Smilie: 

Thanks for the props!

~SC~

----------


## SwoleCat

> just never understood why you want slow release, fibers and fats? Just my .02...not saying its wrong bro......to each his own



If it makes you feel better, we are in the same boat.  :Big Grin: 

~SC~

----------


## Giantz11

> just never understood why you want slow release, fibers and fats? Just my .02...not saying its wrong bro......to each his own



Because the rate of digestion does not matter. There is a rapid increase in glycogen synthesis that does not require insulin . After that it is much slower and does require it. So oats would be just fine:

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

*The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes.* This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (&gt;/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (&lt;1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. *Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (&gt;1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise*

----------


## Kärnfysikern

Plain sugar isnt very good. Sacaros gets broken down into glucose and fructose and the fructose isnt very desirable(not at any time of the day for that matter). Only benifit I know of from fructose is that it increase uric acid production and uric acid is a antioxidant. (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/fw04/apples.html)

Fruit is still ok but dont just get your pwo carbs from fruit alone. Some milk or oats or similar togheter with it is good if you want to try the "any gi" method.

----------


## primetime1

very infomative thread.. liked the back up resource too..

----------


## Kurz

> Because the rate of digestion does not matter. There is a rapid increase in glycogen synthesis that does not require insulin . After that it is much slower and does require it. So oats would be just fine:
> 
> Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.
> 
> Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
> 
> Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
> 
> *The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes.* This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (&gt;/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (&lt;1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. *Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (&gt;1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise*



FORGET IT!!!! I absolutely refuse to get into an argument about PW nutrition. It has been beat down more than a red-headed step child and everyone has their own opinion. Do whatever works for you. I just know from EXPERIENCE, that when I train, I train full go. I'm usually so dead after a mere hour that #1 the thought of whole food makes me nausiated PLUS the idea of fixing a meal right away isnt happening. FINALLY, when I do forget my shake or for some reason don't have one, I 100% feel it! Not then, but in my recovery the next day. I don't recover nearly as fast. don't feel as strong, or as full........esp. when I have a meal without a shake. Sorry bro, just the way it is. So in my opinion, the speed of absorption absolutley matters..... :Nutkick:

----------


## Phyll

Does that mean that a mix of fast acting (dex) and slightly slower acting (oats, etc.) carb sources would be a better PWO meal?




> Because the rate of digestion does not matter. There is a rapid increase in glycogen synthesis that does not require insulin . After that it is much slower and does require it. So oats would be just fine:
> 
> Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.
> 
> Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
> 
> Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
> 
> *The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes.* This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (&gt;/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (&lt;1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. *Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (&gt;1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise*

----------


## Giantz11

> Does that mean that a mix of fast acting (dex) and slightly slower acting (oats, etc.) carb sources would be a better PWO meal?


It actaully means that fast acting Dex is not needed at all. Since Glycogen replenishment is independant of insulin for 30-60 min.

----------


## Giantz11

> FORGET IT!!!! I absolutely refuse to get into an argument about PW nutrition. It has been beat down more than a red-headed step child and everyone has their own opinion. Do whatever works for you. I just know from EXPERIENCE, that when I train, I train full go. I'm usually so dead after a mere hour that #1 the thought of whole food makes me nausiated PLUS the idea of fixing a meal right away isnt happening. FINALLY, when I do forget my shake or for some reason don't have one, I 100% feel it! Not then, but in my recovery the next day. I don't recover nearly as fast. don't feel as strong, or as full........esp. when I have a meal without a shake. Sorry bro, just the way it is. So in my opinion, the speed of absorption absolutley matters.....


No need for an argument at all. You are correct, it has been talked about quite a bit. But the fact remains that there are some people that do not wana even hear the other side. And by the way I train hard too and still manage a bagel PWO. Even after legs days when I'm just about to puke every sec.

----------


## Phyll

lol, for me, one of things that really helps getting done with a grueling workout is knowing that you'll be eating some very very large sweet protein shake very soon, maybe add a couple of caramel rice cakes in there and damn that's a deal

----------


## kaptainkeezy04

> FORGET IT!!!! I absolutely refuse to get into an argument about PW nutrition. It has been beat down more than a red-headed step child and everyone has their own opinion. Do whatever works for you. I just know from EXPERIENCE, that when I train, I train full go. I'm usually so dead after a mere hour that #1 the thought of whole food makes me nausiated PLUS the idea of fixing a meal right away isnt happening. FINALLY, when I do forget my shake or for some reason don't have one, I 100% feel it! Not then, but in my recovery the next day. I don't recover nearly as fast. don't feel as strong, or as full........esp. when I have a meal without a shake. Sorry bro, just the way it is. So in my opinion, the speed of absorption absolutley matters.....


damn man i feel exactly the same way...i am so tired and worn down after a workout that any kind of whole food pwo would make me sick...just the thought of being all sweaty and tired and trying to force down that lumpy thick oatmeal makes me sick right now...

IMHO i feel that the best (and most convenient) way to go is IMMEDIATELY pwo consume 100 grams of dextrose and 5 grams of creatine (i actually take in 5 grams of bcaas too but its not NECESSARY)...and then as soon as you are done chuggin down that stuff...start chuggin 50 grams of whey protein...

NOW TO GIANTZ....
you seem to have a lot of proof to back up your opinion that "any carb is a go" pwo...so i am not saying you are wrong but lets think about it...i mean logically it makes sense for one to think that a powder blended or shakin into a liquid is gonna be a lot easier for the body to digest and therefore send to muscles faster than something like a bagel or oatmeal and such.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

kaptain the point is that you dont need to get carbs to the muscle fast. Only aminos. Unless you plan on doing something that needs full glycogen stores later on the same day.

A workout doesnt even deplete muscle glycogen to any great extent, unless you do a arnold 3 hour 50 set workout.

----------


## Kurz

Who the hell cares???? If it works for someone, let it go....just as long as you give both sides a fair chance.....

Just for me, if I can eat solid food when I'm done training, esp. something as fiberous as oats or a bagel, or even fruit such as an apple......I know I didnt train very hard.

Why would I want my body to now have to focus on digesting solids, when I just put it through the ringer in the gym?>????

----------


## Kärnfysikern

kurz just because you arent interested in this discussion doesnt have any bearing on what the rest of the board wants. No one is forcing you to read or post in this thread.

Also remember we have never said high gi doesnt work.

I have done both things and given both sides a fair chanse.

----------


## Giantz11

> damn man i feel exactly the same way...i am so tired and worn down after a workout that any kind of whole food pwo would make me sick...just the thought of being all sweaty and tired and trying to force down that lumpy thick oatmeal makes me sick right now...
> 
> IMHO i feel that the best (and most convenient) way to go is IMMEDIATELY pwo consume 100 grams of dextrose and 5 grams of creatine (i actually take in 5 grams of bcaas too but its not NECESSARY)...and then as soon as you are done chuggin down that stuff...start chuggin 50 grams of whey protein...
> 
> NOW TO GIANTZ....
> you seem to have a lot of proof to back up your opinion that "any carb is a go" pwo...so i am not saying you are wrong but lets think about it...i mean logically it makes sense for one to think that a powder blended or shakin into a liquid is gonna be a lot easier for the body to digest and therefore send to muscles faster than something like a bagel or oatmeal and such.


Logically that is incorrect. Since Glycogen synthesis is insulin independant for up to 60min, slower digesting is fine. Protein Synthesis peaks at 24hr after exerxcise, again digestion is not an issue:

Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6
The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.

It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. *It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.*

----------


## Giantz11

> Who the hell cares???? If it works for someone, let it go....just as long as you give both sides a fair chance.....
> 
> Just for me, if I can eat solid food when I'm done training, esp. something as fiberous as oats or a bagel, or even fruit such as an apple......I know I didnt train very hard.
> 
> Why would I want my body to now have to focus on digesting solids, when I just put it through the ringer in the gym?>????


That fine and as you can see I'm not trying at all to argue here. I also do not equate a good workout with an inablility to eat. I just man up and eat. If you can't do it, then shakes are fine. I could care less what you do. You said you didn't understand why people would want to slow digestion and I stated that digestion doesn't matter.

----------


## jdh

if your going to have have oats you might as well wait an hour to consume anything at all and throw out your second pwo all together. im not sure how some of you can consume a whole food meal immediately after workout anyway. exercise suppresses appetite,so if your goin balls to the walls training and are spent it should be quite diffictult for you to down about a whole cup of oats among the other crap you guys mention.

----------


## Giantz11

I do it, I wouldn't use working out hard as an excuse either. I just do it.

----------


## BIGswang

> Does that mean that a mix of fast acting (dex) and slightly slower acting (oats, etc.) carb sources would be a better PWO meal?


how many oats would you put in a shake then

----------


## Giantz11

However many grams of carbs you are shooting for.

----------


## Kurz

> if your going to have have oats you might as well wait an hour to consume anything at all and throw out your second pwo all together. im not sure how some of you can consume a whole food meal immediately after workout anyway. exercise suppresses appetite,so if your goin balls to the walls training and are spent it should be quite diffictult for you to down about a whole cup of oats among the other crap you guys mention.


Agreed.....so in theory, giantz - you are saying it doesn't matter if it's after you drop the last weight or within the hour window? maybe 1.5 hours? I could do a full meal then.....

I usually go:

premeal : 3pm
train 500pm
shake 630pm
meal 730pm
casein/pb shake at 900 before bed.

----------


## Giantz11

> Agreed.....so in theory, giantz - you are saying it doesn't matter if it's after you drop the last weight or within the hour window? maybe 1.5 hours? I could do a full meal then.....
> 
> I usually go:
> 
> premeal : 3pm
> train 500pm
> shake 630pm
> meal 730pm
> casein/pb shake at 900 before bed.


Yeah something like that, I'd say to try and get it in within 1 hr. I usually eat about 45min PWO as I have to settle down a but and get osme water in me.

----------


## chest6

Kurz just because you seem to be a little closeminded does not mean the other side of the equation does not work. Try something before you bash it.

----------


## Kurz

haha...I'm the last one to be closed minded bro.....how many times did I say do what works???? I've done them all...honestly. It's all good chesty...it's all good. ok, i'll skip my shake tonight and report back in the am.

----------


## jdh

> if your going to have have oats you might as well wait an hour to consume anything at all and throw out your second pwo all together. im not sure how some of you can consume a whole food meal immediately after workout anyway. exercise suppresses appetite,so if your goin balls to the walls training and are spent it should be quite diffictult for you to down about a whole cup of oats among the other crap you guys mention.


just for the record, i wasnt serious when i wrote that i have a whole other set of beliefs for myself based on my experiences then giantz and johan, so i say try high gi carbs pwo for a couple months then try low gi carbs for a couple months. make sure your diet and training is spot on or you may have skewed results one way or the other. then stick with what you think worked best, from my personal experience its been high gi.

----------


## SwoleCat

> Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes


Do they ever say what occurs when there IS an insulin spike/surge, and the ability for insulin to store more nutrients than the norm w/no spike? 

(One reason BB'ers shoot slin PWO and use high gi carbs)

~SC~

----------


## Giantz11

> Do they ever say what occurs when there IS an insulin spike/surge, and the ability for insulin to store more nutrients than the norm w/no spike? 
> 
> (One reason BB'ers shoot slin PWO and use high gi carbs)
> 
> ~SC~


I doubt you will store more with a spike. I've seen evidence that using a higher Gi carb can speed up glycogen synthesis but that is separate from Protein synthesis and quicker glycogen synthesis does not equate to more muscle growth. Protein synthesis peaks 24hr PWO. Johan and I have been going back and forth about the use of Exogenous slin and my new theory is it would be better utilized 24hr after your workout when PS is at its peak.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

I think this study giantz sent me today can clear that upp decently. Most of insulins anabolic effects is its ability to shut down degradation of protein and the body is very sensitive to that effect and it peaks out quickly.




> Insulin sensitivity of protein and glucose metabolism in human forearm skeletal muscle.
> 
> Louard RJ, Fryburg DA, Gelfand RA, Barrett EJ.
> 
> Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06510.
> 
> *Physiologic increases of insulin promote net amino acid uptake and protein anabolism in forearm skeletal muscle by restraining protein degradation.* The sensitivity of this process to insulin is not known. Using the forearm perfusion method, we infused insulin locally in the brachial artery at rates of 0.00 (s****e control), 0.01, 0.02, 0.035, or 0.05 mU/min per kg for 150 min to increase local forearm plasma insulin concentration by 0, approximately 20, approximately 35, approximately 60, and approximately 120 microU/ml (n = 35). L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine and L-[1-14C]leucine were infused systemically, and the net forearm balance, rate of appearance (Ra) and rate of disposal (R(d)) of phenylalanine and leucine, and forearm glucose balance were measured basally and in response to insulin infusion. Compared to s****e, increasing rates of insulin infusion progressively increased net forearm glucose uptake from 0.9 mumol/min per 100 ml (s****e) to 1.0, 1.8, 2.4, and 4.7 mumol/min per 100 ml forearm, respectively. Net forearm balance for phenylalanine and leucine was significantly less negative than basal (P < 0.01 for each) in response to the lowest dose insulin infusion, 0.01 mU/min per kg, and all higher rates of insulin infusion. Phenylalanine and leucine R(a) declined by approximately 38 and 40% with the lowest dose insulin infusion. Higher doses of insulin produced no greater effect (decline in R(a) varied between 26 and 42% for phenylalanine and 30-50% for leucine). In contrast, R(d) for phenylalanine and leucine did not change with insulin. *We conclude that even modest increases of plasma insulin can markedly suppress proteolysis, measured by phenylalanine R(a), in human forearm skeletal muscle. Further increments of insulin within the physiologic range augment glucose uptake but have little additional effect on phenylalanine R(a) or balance. These results suggest that proteolysis in human skeletal muscle is more sensitive than glucose uptake to physiologic increments in insulin*


I do think however that there must be more going on when insulin levels are realy high, because hell injecting slin puts meat on like nothing else obviously. But that effect doesnt seem to be linear. It seems to arrive at a certain dosage and doesnt get much improved with higher dosages. 




> Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Sign****g and Action
> Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise
> Scot R. Kimball1, Peter A. Farrell2, and Leonard S. Jefferson1
> 
> 1 Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey 17033; and 2 Noll Physiology Research Center, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802
> 
> Protein synthesis in skeletal muscle is modulated in response to a variety of stimuli. Two stimuli receiving a great deal of recent attention are increased amino acid availability and exercise. Both of these effectors stimulate protein synthesis in part through activation of translation initiation. However, the full response of translation initiation and protein synthesis to either effector is not observed in the absence of a minimal concentration of insulin. The combination of insulin and either increased amino acid availability or endurance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis in part through activation of the ribosomal protein S6 protein kinase S6K1 as well as through enhanced association of eukaryotic initiation factor eIF4G with eIF4E, an event that promotes binding of mRNA to the ribosome. *In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.* This review summarizes the results of a number of recent studies that have helped to establish our present understanding of the interactions of insulin, amino acids, and exercise in the regulation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle.

----------


## SwoleCat

> I do think however that there must be more going on when insulin levels are realy high, because hell injecting slin puts meat on like nothing else obviously.


Right, that's what I was getting at, because all studies aside, it's no secret the pro's use slin to get huge, and do so pwo, I personally know 2 of them. 

True they use GH as well w/all kinds of anabolics, but slin does make a significant difference in the size of a professional bodybuilder.

~SC~

----------


## Giantz11

> Right, that's what I was getting at, because all studies aside, it's no secret the pro's use slin to get huge, and do so pwo, I personally know 2 of them. 
> 
> True they use GH as well w/all kinds of anabolics, but slin does make a significant difference in the size of a professional bodybuilder.
> 
> ~SC~


No question there, same goes with AAS though. You are breaking all the rules. Never ran slin personally so I don'r know its powers. Johan tells me its great though  :LOL:

----------


## Kurz

Has a pretty intense chest/tri w/o yesterday. Had a premeal of 1 cup oats, 1 scoop of whey about 330......trained at 5-630. Skipped my shake (anxiety set in big time) and went home. Finally ate at 730 4 pieces of ww, eggs, salad and then had a muscle milk prebed about 9:15..........I feel ok now, but we'll see tonight for back/bis.....deads....thats when I feel the lack of throttle.

----------


## kaptainkeezy04

> No question there, same goes with AAS though. *You are breaking all the rules.* Never ran slin personally so I don'r know its powers. Johan tells me its great though



yeah gosh swolecat you are breaking all the rules!  :Aabanhimlikeabitch:

----------

