# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS > EDUCATIONAL THREADS >  Ketotifen - what you need to know!

## CYCLEON

I see a lot of newbie people trying to find good info on this so I thought it would be best to put it all in one place. I patched this from a wide range of sources as well as my own experience (also thanks to FONZ). This truly is a wonderdrug for BB. 

What Is It? 
Ketotifen is very safe antihistamine used extensively in Europe to treat bronchial asthma and allergies. It is also being studied as a treatment for colitis. When used for asthma, weight gain and an increase in appetite are among the most frequent side effects. Ketotifen also protects the cells in the stomach, small intestine and perhaps the rest of the gut from a number of toxins. A number of case studies suggest that it may be helpful treating skin problems such as acne. Ketotifen also reduces edema (swelling and puffiness caused by water retention) around sores. 

Ketotifen Studies 
German researchers have published data showing that ketotifen lowers tnf-alpha in the test tube. One study used ketotifen in combination with oxymethadone, a steroid like Megace that helps people gain weight, so it is hard to gauge what effect ketotifen had (the study notes a 14% reduction in TNF-alpha levels and weight gains of 11-12 pounds in less than four weeks). A larger placebo controlled study of this combination is underway. The other study used ketotifen by itself in eight patients with elevated TNF-alpha, (but no wasting). Taking ketotifen for 12 weeks, these patients gained an average of six pounds, had increases in their body cell mass and reductions in their TNF-alpha levels. 

Side Effects and Toxicity 
Ketotifen is virtually non-toxic (although it is not advised for patients with epilepsy). People who took twenty times the recommended dose (in suicide attempts) suffered no serious consequences (other than embarrassment). Its primary side effects seem to be temporary drowsiness, dry mouth,(and other mucuos membranes) appetite stimulation and weight gain. 

Dosing and side effects 
No studies have been done to find the most effective dose but the German researchers used 4 mg ED. Dan Duchaine (who discovered ketos use for BB) suggested 10mg ED but in my experience this much is not needed and makes u far too sleepy. I find that 3-4mg ED seems ideal. However, much higher doses have been shown to be quite safe with no adverse affects other than increased drowsiness and appetite  it will make u hungry for solid foods. You can take it divided in the day or all at once. 

Ketotifen and Clen 
Clenbuterol is a beta 2 agonist which has a limited anabolic effect during its first few days of use and afterward is normally used to fight fat. At higher doses, however, it can be catabolic to muscle and it must be cycled on a 2 week on, 2 week of basis or the beta 2 receptors that clen binds to become saturated and down regulate. 

Ketotifens magic is that it upregulates the beta-receptors including the beta 2s that clen uses. As long as you are taking ketotifen, it will continue to clean these receptors, never allowing them to downregulate  even while on a heavy clen cycle. That means you can continue to take clen indefinitely without having to cycle off to regenerate the receptors. 2-3mg ED can upregulate even severely shut down receptors within a week. 

It also means that you dont need as much clen to get the same benefits. It seems u can take about 30-40% less clen and it be equally effective. FONZ posted that it also increases the number of receptor sites on the surface of the cell, allowing more clen to attach and perhaps this is the reason for the increased efficacy. Ketotifen also seems to lessen the sides of clen including the jitters. 

Ketotifen and ECA 
Perhaps an even better use for ketotifen is taking it with the ECA stack. While the thermogenic effect of ephedrine is not as potent as clen because it doesn't have a high receptor affinity, and it is not limited to beta-2 receptors. In fact it seems to have a good effect on beta 3 receptors as well, which act as a type of thermogenic messenger and over half of ephedrine effect is from beta-3 stimulation. Clen has almost no effect on beta 3 however. So by keeping the beta 2 receptors up, ketotifen can allow the benefits of continuous beta 2 and beta 3 stimulation from ephedrine. 

"Ephedrine is believed to have some direct effect on both alpha adrenoceptors and beta adrenoceptors, but AT THERAPEUTIC DOSES, ephedrine exerts its thermogenic effect almost entirely via stimulating noradrenaline release from the sympathetic nerve terminals [endings] . . . at least 40% of the [thermogenic] response is mediated by an atypical receptor, which is presumed to be the beta 3-adrenoceptor." 

from 
Liu YL, Toubro S, Astrup A, Stock MJ Contribution of beta 3-adrenoceptor activation to ephedrine-induced thermogenesis in humans Int J Obes Relat Disord. Sep;19(9). 678-685 

Enjoy  :Cool:

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## pureanger

Great Post thanks for the info really appriecate it

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## SwitchedOn

Hell yeah thanks for the info bro!!!

Switched

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## The Iron Game

to the top

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## Mike

BUMP!

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## CYCLEON

up, up and awaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy  :Big Grin:

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## CYCLEON

back up - i can tell no one knows what this is - its that magic stuff in Super Clen people

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## Billy Boy

Good post bro - keep it at the top

Billy

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## hatchblack

good post. sounds like good stuff

what is tnf-alphas though??

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## giller18

I have search for info on keto and found the first part regarding the german trials but nothing on upgrading beta 2 receptors.
Can you tell me where you found that info please?

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## CYCLEON

Ketotifen is in the antihistimine class of drug - which by its very definition, among other things, blocks efforts at downregulating beta receptors - You will remember that clenbuterol is a drug for asma and works by being a beta agonist - thats why these work together Note that the same proccess is present in drugs like PPA and ephedrine (beta agonists used in cold medication) used in synergy with an antihistamine such as detromorphan (sp?), which you will notice, also makes you drowsy and lethargic - much the same a s ketotifen.

If I become less lazy I will see if I can dreg up my notes on the exact studies - there was one in particular that I remember well. Ill try to hunt it down when I have time.  :Smilie:

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## giller18

Thanks for reply

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## LewdTenant

What are effective doses of ketotifen to take on a clen cycle? i have found them in 1mg tabs?

Have you used seperate ketotifen tabs and clen tabs in a cycle together?

Lewd

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## CYCLEON

figure somewhere between 5-6 mg ED - Duchaine thought that 10mg would be the dose after using 2 weeks but I find that makes you pretty drowsy and misreable - it also depends on the amount of clen you are taking and its potency.

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## giller18

Do you have to take the ketotifen at the same time as the clen , or eca, or can you take a 6mg dose at night.

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## CYCLEON

seems you can take it at night but i have always taken it at the same time

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## LewdTenant

Thank God this is still here. I start my ketotifen/clen in a few days.

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## Iron horse

can you bridge with this stuff?

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## Redneck

Great post. Good info>

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## Buddha_Red

Hey gang,

sorry if im still a bit slow about this.

I have read alot about using clen for 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. You spend all your time ramping on or off.

A friend has been on it and it took him 9 pills to feel anything at all. Not really shakes just tons of energy.

What i dont understand is, does the effectivness last when you start reducing? Im not sure the point if only one day you feel like its enough then back down. 

Do you always start at 1 pill? even if you have done other cycles of clen? He added 12.5 mcg of t3 and he says he has alot more energy but thats about it.

Thanks for the time

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## Cronus

MUCH APPRECIATED!! I was a newbie to Ketotifen as well. Had NO idea what to do with it!

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## Pinch

is pizotifen similar to ketotifen?

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## mushroomstampr

bump for spring break prep

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## milwood

Anybody seen the latest studies? This is stuff I just read, so it's all new to me too. I'm just looking for the truth. seems this old info isn't correct anymore, by new study. You'll have to search around but as I recall it goes like this:
1. don't do 2 on 2 off with clen , etc. go straight through for long cycles. On every 3rd week (so, week 3, week 6, week 9 etc.) take benadryl every night (check dosage amount, I can't remember) before bed. This takes care of the receptor downregulation (a la ketotifen).
2. DON'T use E/C, because they say now that it DOES cause downregulation. This seems to be a controversy, though.

Anyone who finds more on this please post. I for one would really like to get the correct info, as I plan on cutting with clen in 2 weeks.

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## Syr

> Do you have to take the ketotifen at the same time as the clen, or eca, or can you take a 6mg dose at night.


1 dose at night is fine (it helps sleeping too). I've read from 1 to 3mg ED, not that much: who suggested u?

i've read also that keto is good for PCT and can stimulate your appetite quite a lot.

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## spankit15

Does anyone know if claritin (loratadine) will also work with clenbuterol ? It is also a H1 receptor antagonist (antihistamine), just like ketotifen and benadryl, but without the nasty drowsy effects. It is also very easily available and the generic versions are quite cheap.

 :Shrug: 

Thanks
spankit

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## ins0dus

It gets rid of many of the stupid questions that i was about to ask .. great post!

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## allpower

Ok, so if i want to run t3 with my clen while using keto, do I just run clen and t3 both continuously? 

If so, How long would you run clen and t3 together while using keto?

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## americanoak

what kind of weight gain are we walking? If people use clen to cut fat and then take keto.... isnt that kind of an oxy moron? I mean, i ahve taken clen and keto at the same time.. but now reading this aside from cleaning beta receptors, if keto makes you wanna eat more and put on more weight what would be the point of stacking t with clen?

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## S-IRON-M

Jus wondering wil it also clean recepters after steriod cycle eg d-bol test???

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## BadNewsBerto

Nice post bro, some usefull info in there

Cheers
BNB

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## Bertuzzi

Gonna bump this.... I know its old but I feel its a great read. I learned a lot, thats for sure.

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## Win369

in 2 weeks on/2 weeks of clen cycle...is ketotifen still needed ? and when is the best time to take it ? before bedtime ED ? or when breaktime (of clen) ? sorry i've read lots of articles of clen and keto but still dont get the point of using keto. the function, dosage and timing.

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## Walnutz

If doing a 2 week on/2 week off cycle of clen then no keto is not needed but wouldn't hurt. Take keto before bed because it will make you drowsy.

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## ripped_k1d

Well with keto no need to cycle clen you can run it straight through. The keto gaining weight things seems awkward for me... Any chem sites sell these 2 chems as one? That would be really sweet..

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## mike1991

where can i get this ketotifen from? im in australia and only just heard of it tonight at the gym and curious to where i can get my hands on it? chemist? lol

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## sixfootseven

> where can i get this ketotifen from? im in australia and only just heard of it tonight at the gym and curious to where i can get my hands on it? chemist? lol


most peptide sellers have it

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## ChiveOn

Ar-r sells it. Works great. I'm on thier clen and keto now

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## nondescript

So is it still accurate to say that with the Keto, you do not need to cycle the Clen at 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off?

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## tigerspawn

Bump

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## webbiee

Sorry to jump in this conversation a bit late but I am confused regarding the keto and how often to take it? Is the suggestion to run keto the entire time or just in week 3 of a 6 week Clen /T3 cycle?

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## banani1

Hey ive seen Ketotifen fumurate as in Eye solutions, Zaditor eyedrops or somthing, whats the difference between the tablets and the eyedrops, can you use the eyedrops with clen to get the same effect lol?

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## jimmyinkedup

no the eyedrops work locally the tablets systemically. I use arr liquid .

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## dantyz

can you inbox me where to buy it

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## kozY

Australia here, anyone know what the its called here? are they're any other names or substitute in Australia? Whats the active ingredients?

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## FeSBR

Does it have the same effect with albuterol?

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