# MEMBERS EXPERIENCES > OVER 40 FORUM >  Liquidex/NYC Anti-Estrogen Cutting Journal

## Soldier225

I have to share this with you, especially for 30+ crowd. I've been doing a lot a research (on this board, other boards, medical jourals, etc.) on hormone levels in men as they age. Did you know that a 54 year old man has more estrogen in his system than a 59 year old woman??? IT'S TRUE! Why Liquidex/NYC? Soon, but first...

You see, my family (dad, uncles, etc.) have all had a terrible time losing weight and building muscle as they grew older. My dad is now 58 and has diabetes. My family also has a propensity for a 'endomorphic' body type, soft and stubborn fat deposits everywhere. I never had a problem losing weight until about 5 years ago. I tried everything (what a cliche)...fasting, exercising until my body was so run down I'd get sick, and couldn't lose fat...then I'd get depressed and eat. I've hovered around 280 lbs. since that time.

Then I started reading this board and others, about steroids , anti-estrogens, etc., and found out that EXCESS ESTROGEN IN A MAN'S SYSTEM IS A LEADING CAUSE OF OBESITY, HEART DISEASE, PROSTATE CANCER, DIABETES, AND MORE! Traditional medicine holds the belief that testosterone is what aggravates prostate cancer...really it's ESTROGEN! Think about it...what do woman found to have breast cancer take??? Arimidex (anastozole)!!!! It's because the estrogen is the culprit! Now, don't misunderstand, estrogen does play an important role in your health, even for a man, but the key is the correct amount and in the correct balance with your free testosterone levels .

Let me break this down as I've learned it, and then on to my cycle...

A man's body creates testosterone, some of it is naturally converted into estrogen (estradiol, actually) by the aromatase enzyme. Aromatase is synthesized in the body in FAT CELLS! More fat, more aromatase, more estrogen, which leads to MORE FAT! A vicious cycle, for sure.

With excess extrogen comes excess SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Gobulin), which binds to testosterone, making it unusable by the body. Only a small percentage of the testosterone you produce is "free", or usable by the body. Also, estrogen in your system will bind itself to androgen receptors in you body, so even the free test you have can't reach them!

This was all a revelation to me! This is why my recovery from lifting weights was horrible! The reason for the stubborn abdominal fat! Hell, I hadn't even had "morning wood" (pardon the expression) for years! All because of too much estrogen in my system.

If this has piqued your interest, then here's what to do next. Read the articles in the links I'll provide at the end of this post. Educate yourself. I've learned a lot and am still learning, and everyone's body is different. Think your estrogen levels may be too high? Get a Male Hormone Panel done, with Free and Total Testosterone, Estradiol, DHT (dihydrotestosterone), DHEA, PSA, LH (Luteinizing hormone, which is released by the pituitary as a signal for your gonads to produce more testosterone....), and SHBG. Then determine whether or not there is an imbalance. Detail on how to do this can be found here:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130c.shtml

Did you know that your brain uses estrogen levels in your body as an indicator of whether or not you need more testosterone?? Another way excess estrogen can negatively affect your health.

Anyway, my test showed that LH was good, but estradiol was higher than it should be and free test levels were not good. 

Credit for this cycle goes to HUCKLEBERRY FINAPLEX at Elite, and that got me started on my research into why Liquidex (Anastrozole) would help you lose bodyfat. Anastrozole in an aromatase inhibitor, helping to lower estogen levels in your body.

Here it is:

WEEKS 1-12: Liquidex (.25 mg ED)
WEEK 1,2: NYC (Norephidrine, Yohimbe, Caffiene) stack
WEEK 3,4: ECA stack
WEEK 5,6: NYC
WEEK 7,8: ECA
WEEK 9,10: NYC
WEEK 11,12: ECA

Also have been using Lipoderm-Y from Advant Labs (topical yohimbine, similar to Yohimburn) with GREAT success! My wife loves it also...she's always been petite (and hot...blonde, blue eyes, wow!), at about 4'10" and 105 lbs. Using Lipo-Y she can see here abs for the very first time!

Also supplementing with:

ALA (1800 mg/day)
MSM (3 g/day)
FLAX OIL (9 g/day)
Multi-Vit
NAC (2400 mg/day)
Milk Thistle
Saw Palmetto
L-glutamine (pre and post cardio)
Creatine (pre and post)
Vyo-Dim (Diindolylmethane) which helps with estrogen metabolism and also keeps SHBG from binding to your free test.

MEALS: 8 meals/day. 2 hours apart. Alternate 300/250 kcal.
CARDIO: 10 x/week cardio is target heart rate zone (for me is 150-162 BPM) for fat loss.

The results so far? 4 weeks in....lost 25 lbs. (no lean mass lost!), and 4 inches off my waistline! I feel like a million bucks all the time! I wake up with "morning wood" almost every morning! Recovery from exercise is noticably better...I feel invigorated!!!

Anyway, just wanted to share with all what I've learned. Here are some great links with info, and I'll keep you posted. My goal is July 8th, 225 lbs., 36 in. waist, 12-15% BF. I can tell you right now, my body feels like it's there already!

If anyone has more info pertaining to this thread, please post. I by no means know it all, I just want to learn more and get healthy. I have 2 young boys (2 and 5) and I want to be around for them and my wife a long, healthy time...

Thanks,

Soldier225

http://smart-drugs.net/ias-estrogen.htm

http://www.rrpwebsite.org/Townsendletter.htm

----------


## JohnnyB

Great post, I wonder of having exess b/f caused more estrogen in men, in my case over forty. Also thought that an anti-e might help. Thanks Soldier225 for these links and info. Now I need to do some research.

JohnnyB

----------


## Soldier225

This may be the missing link for you, JohnnyB and other men as they get older. Your test levels start to decline around age 25, but everyone is different.

I forgot to mention that I will be posting my Hormone Panel test results, both before, and since being on the above protocol...stay tuned!

 :Big Grin:

----------


## Kaz

This is a very intersting read. I have noticed in the last 3 years or so that after a cycle including test I always suffer from a gain in fat (I dont lose my gains I just gain fat as well) and it is becoming harder and harder to get rid of that fat!

I will be most interested to read the opinions of others TNT, Doc Evil where are you both?

Also an intersting though to actually build a cycle of anit-e etc when you are not using AS!

Listening......

----------


## Tarzan

Great post and welcome to the over the hill club LOL

----------


## Ajax

Soldier: the Five-Star General in the battle against estrogen!

Fantastic stuff. It's great the way you took a lot of disperate information and pulled it together for us--including links to research! You can't ask for better than that. 

(That's why this forum is so great, we get older, smarter people in here who know how to make a point--and make it well!)

One thing I have to toss in here Soldier, is you (or anybody that follows your advice--and I think there will be quite a few!) should also consider Proviron . I am a big advocate of Proviron, I use it as my anti-e of choice when taking steroids 'cuz it's cheaper than Arimidex and, so far, it's worked just fine for me. Proviron also has the side effects of hardening muscle and, it's known for it's ability to increase sex drive. (Though you seem to get that on your program anyway! Just think about what a little extra might do for you & your 4'10" 105lb., blond-haired blue-eyed hottie!  :Big Grin: )

Guys--lower, right-hand corner--if you think a post is good, rate it!

----------


## Kaz

I want to bump this thread - I would like some more input about this subject since it is very close to my heart (About halfway between my heart and my love handles!)

----------


## Soldier225

> _Originally posted by Ajax_ 
> *
> One thing I have to toss in here Soldier, is you (or anybody that follows your advice--and I think there will be quite a few!) should also consider Proviron. I am a big advocate of Proviron, I use it as my anti-e of choice when taking steroids 'cuz it's cheaper than Arimidex and, so far, it's worked just fine for me. Proviron also has the side effects of hardening muscle and, it's known for it's ability to increase sex drive.*


Hey Ajax...

I've looked into Proviron , just currently do not have access to it. And yes, my wife is REALLY enjoying my renewed sex drive! I've also been reading a lot about Femara (letrozole ). Would you recommend Proviron over Femara? Femara is supposed to be 98% effective in stopping estrogen (estradiol) production) and also have the added benefit of INCREASING IGF-1 levels, whereas Arimidex (anastrozole) lowers IGF-1 levels by a reported 18%. Also, I am upping my dosage to 1 mg ED, will stay on it for 3-4 months total, and then take 6 weeks off (mainly because of the suppressed IGF-1).

What I'm working towards here is to get my bodyfat down to a respectable level (under 15%) before I do my first cycle of AAS in over 8 years.

I know there are hundreds of posts of cycles for guys over 30, but if anyone would like to suggest one, I'd appreciate it. Here's what I'm considering:

WEEKS 1-8: EQ 400mg EQ 
WEEKS 3-8: Winny 50mg/day 
WEEKS 1-8: Test prop 75mg/day 

Novaldex on hand, clomid 300 mg 3 days after last test prop, then 100 mg for 10 days, 50 mg for 10, then see where I'm at. Will probably run anastrozole or femara straight through also.

By the way, pertinent results of my first HORMONE PANEL (before liquidex):

FREE T: 15.2 pg/mL (middle/low)
TOTAL T: 389 ng/dL (low - well, duh... :Big Grin: ) 
PSA: 2.0
LH: 7.1 mIU/mL
ESTRADIOL: 102 pg/mL (yes, it was HIGH...)

I will have my next test within the month and will keep you'all posted on the results.

Soldier225

----------


## JohnnyB

Hey Soldier225,

Here's some info on femara, shows that it raises test also.

Aromatase inhibitors in men 

The effect of aromatase inhibition on male gonadotrophin and sex steroid concentrations is illustrated in the paper by Trunet et al. (1993): 2.5 mg letrozole suppressed plasma oestradiol concentrations to less than 50% of pretreatment after 2 days, with recovery to approximately pretreatment values after 6 days. These decreases were accompanied by increased gonadotrophin concentrations, with resultant increases of approximately 50% in plasma testosterone . These results, and those previously published (Bhatnagar et al. 1992) on the effects of fadrozole in men, indicate that the aromatization pathway is of major importance in the regulation of gonodotrophin secretion by aromatically androgens. 

Full text of this article can be downloaded in PDF format. 
http://journals.endocrinology.org/e.../erc0060181.htm 

JohnnyB

----------


## Soldier225

Good info, JohnnyB!

I'm now in the process of getting my Free T3 level checked. My insurance will cover most of the costs of TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy), and I have a good doc who understands how this process works, AND understands the need to keep estrogen within a certain range (10-20 pg/mL). Going to up my baseline testosterone levels to around 1100 ng/dL. This, along with using Letrozole or Anastrozole should make me feel like a new man! I want to keep my Free Testosterone Level at about 26 pg/mL, which is upper end for a 21-29 year old male.

I'll be getting T3 and am thinking about trying a low-dose cycle (12.5 mcg/day) just to get my feet wet and see how my body reacts. I'm just waiting to get test results back to see what my Free T3 is (230-619 pg/dl is considered 'normal'). Also considering CYCLEON's T3 cycle, 60 days up to 100 mcg.

That's the lastest update. Again, I'm trying to create solid foundation before a do a cycle of AAS. Getting my 'Normal' Test levels where they should be with TRT, then continuing the cardio and clean diet (adding T3 if testing merits and/or to speed up the weight loss process.) Once I hit 225 lbs. (or 10-12% BF, whichever comes first), I'll start my cycle.

Soldier225

----------


## Soldier225

I almost forgot...I upped my Liquidex dose to 1 mg ED. I'm a big guy to start with, plus as you can see from my Estradiol level in previous posts, I sure can't hurt!

 :Big Grin:

----------


## JohnnyB

I have an appointment on tuesday to blood work done and talk to the Doc about some femara. If estrogen is high (which I think it is) and test low.

JohnnyB

----------


## Iwan2bsolid2

Just read the post and gotta bump it, excellent information, excellent links, keep us posted on your progress Soldier225. I've suffered from something like this as well, I think it's high estrogen? Lower chest fat that does not go away.

Check this out as of 8/24/01 last year I was 23.
Had my blood panel done
Test was 293 NG/DL out of [241-827] <low as shit for my age!!!
Estradiol was 29 out of *ND (not detectible) ND-54< rather high as well!!

I want to get them checked again. I need help, how do I find a good Endocrinologist? I went to one that didn't know shit. I live in Orange County, Ca. Thanks, I gotta get this figured out.

----------


## Soldier225

> _Originally posted by Iwan2bsolid2_ 
> *Just read the post and gotta bump it, excellent information, excellent links, keep us posted on your progress Soldier225. I've suffered from something like this as well, I think it's high estrogen? Lower chest fat that does not go away.
> 
> Check this out as of 8/24/01 last year I was 23.
> Had my blood panel done
> Test was 293 NG/DL out of [241-827] <low as shit for my age!!!
> Estradiol was 29 out of *ND (not detectible) ND-54< rather high as well!!
> 
> I want to get them checked again. I need help, how do I find a good Endocrinologist? I went to one that didn't know shit. I live in Orange County, Ca. Thanks, I gotta get this figured out.*


Hey Iwan2bsolid2, are you getting HRT? Your test levels ARE really low for your age. I start my therapy soon, and like I said earlier, we're going to aim for between 800-1100 ng/dl for Total Test and around 26 for Free Test. These are the upper end for 21-29 year old males. I'm guessing my Test levels have always been low. When I told the doc that I'm 30 years old and worried that my Testosterone levels were too low and Estrogen too high, he said that would be out of the ordinary. Also told me that at 30 my Test levels should still be fairly high. I don't think these guys understand how much this varies from person to person...just look at YOUR case! The point is, you don't have to suffer from side effects of low Testosterone /high Estradiol because it's treatable. 

I came to these boards at first to get all the information I needed because I was ready for a AAS cycle. Once I started REALLY learning about the endocrine system and other things, I realized that I MAY BE HAPPY WHEN MY HORMONE LEVELS GET BACK TO NORMAL!!! These things go undiagnosed for two reasons: (1) Ignorance in the medical community that this is a problem that exists in men (luckily, this attitude is changing), and (2) Ignorance or just acceptance of the circumstances of what going on with your body.

My point is, if you're reading this and think it may apply to you, GET A COMPLETE HORMONE PANEL DONE! See where things are at. Most guys on this board probably have naturally normal/high levels of Test, and since they do, they probably have low bodyfat levels, which means less aromatase, which means LESS FAT! See what I mean? 

By the way, I checked out numerous clinics all over, and wanted a program where they understood that my goal was to get Test levels in the upper end of normal. Also one that tests Thyroid and Estradiol, and will suppress Estrogen if need be (mine was high). I also wanted to visit with my doctor in person, and to be in contact with him on a regular basis. The group I ended up choosing is reNEW Man Anti-Aging Clinics. They are headquartered in Georgia, but have a network of doctors all over the country. My doctor is 2 hours away (yes, I'm out in the sticks), but he is well versed on the latest in treating male andropause , and everthing is supervised and testing is on a regular basis. The website is www.renewman.com, and no, I have no affiliation with them other than they have, in my opinion, the most thorough program out there.

Will keep everyone posted as my saga continues...

Soldier225

----------


## Iwan2bsolid2

SOLDIER225. WHAT IS HRT? Hormone replacement therapy? I'm not getting anything done. I want to go get another blood panel done. The Endocrinologist I went to said nothing about that test level, when I asked him he said "that's in the normal range, you don't have a problem", BASTARDs, like this disgust me. He only wanted his $ for an hour's work. 

Can you explain to me what is free Testosterone and the diference between that and what I posted in the previous post. 

Can you tell me how I can go about having a Blood panel done again? The first time it was taken because I got sick and the stupid Endocrinologist thought I had Hepititis from surfing. 

I just want to feel normal again, does this condition cause you to be down alot (depressed)?

----------


## Soldier225

Yes, HRT is Hormone Replacement Therapy.

What you need tested is Total Testosterone and Free Testosterone. Total Test is the sum total of free and bound testosterone in your system. This number, they'll say, should be between 240ng/dl to 1100ng/dl. Laboratory ranges are determined by testing both sick and healthy men. Sick (andropause ) is the lower end of the range. Healthy is the upper end of the range 750 - 1100ng/dl. So your number (239) is Total Testosterone, and is obviously low. 

Free Testosterone is test is is available for your body to use. Most testosterone is bound by something called SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Gobulin), which basically renders the Testosterone useless. Also, the more Test that aromitizes into Estradiol (estrogen), the more SHBG is produced, compounding the problem. 

Read this article...it really lays a good foundation for everything being talked about on this thread:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-...prtcl-130.html

As for testing, www.lef.org offers them, and prices aren't too bad (if you're a member). I've also found other web sites that offer testing, just try searching for "hormone testing" or something similar.

As for DEPRESSION, I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar Disorder when I was 25, and was taking Paxil, but I felt more messed up when I was on that medication than when I was off it. Turns out that was around the time my Test levels took a nosedive, and I was misdiagnosed with the depression. Read this excerpt from the article I linked to above:




> *
> Testosterone and Depression
> 
> A consistent finding in the scientific literature is that testosterone replacement therapy produces an increased feeling of well-being. As stated earlier, newly published studies show that low testosterone correlates with symptoms of depression and other psychological disorders (94-97, 272).
> 
> A common side effect of prescription antidepressant drugs is the suppression of libido. Those with depression either accept this drug-induced reduction in quality of life, or get off the antidepressant drugs so they can at least have a somewhat normal sex life. If more psychiatrists tested their patients' blood for free testosterone and prescribed natural testosterone therapies to those with low free testosterone, the need for libido-suppressing antidepressant drugs could be reduced or eliminated. As previously described, testosterone replacement often enhances libido, the opposite effect of most prescription antidepressants.
> 
> One study showed that patients with major depression experienced improvement that was equal to that achieved with standard antidepressant drugs (97).
> 
> ...


Hope this helps....

Soldier225

----------


## Soldier225

Hey gang,

Just got my T3 Free test results back. It was 353 pg/dL (normal range is 230-420). It seems to be OK by I may have a complete thyroid panel done anyway. Going to be taking 12.5 mcg/day T3 starting next cycle.

Glad to tell you that Estradiol levels are now down to 16 pg/dL now, down from just over 100! I can really feel a difference!

Anyway, am taking 300mg Test Cyp every 5 days. Free and Total Testosterone levels will be tested in a few weeks, so I'll keep you posted.

BTW, what about adding 300mg of EQ to this cycle? Or should I try 30 mg Dbol instead? Will these show up on my blood tests (directly or indirectly)? Any advice from Old Timers appreciated! 

Soldier225

----------


## Solrock

Excellent, excellent post. You know... it's info like this, on this board, that makes me love this place! This board is an incredible resource. 

BUMP

----------


## dtdionne

Hey soldier, whats the latest? 300mg cyp every 5 days should have had your test levels thru the roof (1200 - 1400) in a couple of weeks.

----------


## painintheazz

Bump, dex is going to be a part of my next cutting cycle that is for sure.

Pain

----------


## Solrock

bump

----------

