# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS >  HCG - How important is it?

## Swifto

*So how important is HCG?*

When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.

Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction *in the signal* to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly. 

However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction *in the responsiveness to a signal* to produce testosterone.

The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.

After recent correspondance with Dr.Crisler (Swale) he confirmed ganadotrophin levels were not to blame in restarting the HPTA. So what is?

If LH levels rise post cycle (the majority of the time) the reason why endogenous testosterone levels DONT rise, is the testes. Or testicular dysfunction. Testicular dysfunction is when the testes become atrophied from disuse or desensitised to ganadotrophins, such as LH. This could also be described as being the onset of primary hypogonadism. 

Primary hypogonadism is when the testes no longer respond to LH. The testes have a lowered sperm concentration/production and endogenous testosterone level, although LH and FSH are above normal levels. This can be due to desease (Klinefelter's syndrome), over use of anabolic steroids , as described in this study or overuse of HCG . The simple answer to primary hypogonadism is HRT.

So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG.

HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.

HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle lasting 6-12 weeks. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.


For those wanting to convert their HCG doses into something more managable. Here's how:

HCG comes in 1500ius and 5000ius amps. Usually from Pregnyl. Chinese suppliers also stock their HCG in these two denominations too. 

You need to get some sterile empty 10ML glass serum vials. You can get these from AR-R . 

You also need to get some bac. water. If you were to mix 5000ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 500ius. If you were to mix 1500ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 150ius. 

Once mixed, refridgerate. I tend to use my mixed HCG within 30-45 days. 

Its really that simple.


This thread has been written on correspondance from Dr.Crisler (Swale), Concilliator and my own research gathered.

----------


## .EA.

Great thread.

----------


## Aizen Sosuke

Good read. Some prefer to start HCG in the last 2 weeks of their cycle I included.

----------


## Swifto

> Good read. Some prefer to start HCG in the last 2 weeks of their cycle I included.


This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.

----------


## bmit

I am of the same mind. HCG is not that expensive and it prevents your nuts from shutting down. Makes recovery that much easier. Don't see why more people don't use it. They should be instructed to by this board. Most people who don't recommend it say "you don't need it". Silly. You don't "need" steroids either.

----------


## TITANIUM

> This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.


Agreed.

I am a big advocate with HCG .


I actually run 500 iu's ed for 20 days at the end of the cycle.

It then overlaps clomid and tamo therapy by about 5 days.

Works with great results.

If I run it at , say 125 iu's x2 wk, during cycle, would it then still be ran at 500 iu's ed at the last 2 wks of the cycle???

----------


## marcus300

Good information

----------


## Swifto

> Agreed.
> 
> I am a big advocate with HCG .
> 
> 
> I actually run 500 iu's ed for 20 days at the end of the cycle.
> 
> It then overlaps clomid and tamo therapy by about 5 days.
> 
> ...



I dont think you'll need to run it again at a higher dose at the end of the cycle, no. That doesnt seem to be what Dr.Crisler suggests if its been used throughout 2-3 times weekly. Remember, too much will hinder recovery by raising estrogen levels (not only through aromotase) and progesterone levels.

----------


## Aizen Sosuke

> This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.


Agreed. The dose would have to be in the 500-1000iu EOD.

----------


## adam_merseal

Good stuff. A must read in my opinion.

----------


## TITANIUM

> I dont think you'll need to run it again at a higher dose at the end of the cycle, no. That doesnt seem to be what Dr.Crisler suggests if its been used throughout 2-3 times weekly. Remember, too much will hinder recovery by raising estrogen levels (not only through aromotase) and progesterone levels.




Understood.

Great post, buy the way.

I will run it in this format my next cycle.

----------


## Matt

Great post lol, well worth waiting for....

A must read for everyone....

----------


## vaders4

Great info, now if only my toolbag sources around me could get HCG I'd be set hahaha..

Def going to wait until I get some HCG.

----------


## dec11

ran hcg on my previous cycle, came off wit no probs, didnt use it last time around, was depressed as a muthatrucker!!!!

----------


## sigman roid

Great post Swifto

----------


## Hazard

Great post swifto!

I used HCG in my last cycle and i noticed a HUGE difference durring my PCT. I swear it seemed like i was still gaining in my pct...... i'm about 6 weeks post cycle now and i feel great.....

~Haz~

----------


## JK-87

Great post, well worth the read.

----------


## M302_Imola

so if one is running 12 weeks of test E at 500mg/week and 10 weeks of Deca at 400mg/week when would one administer HCG and at what dosage? Great read by the way!

----------


## hankdiesel

I used hcg for the first time recently. I'm into my third week of pct and I am still strong as could be and haven't lost any size. Usually during pct I feel small and weak.....not this time.

----------


## Hazard

> so if one is running 12 weeks of test E at 500mg/week and 10 weeks of Deca at 400mg/week when would one administer HCG and at what dosage? Great read by the way!


 
I would start at week 4 and run it through week 14 at 250iu's 3x a week.....

~Haz~

----------


## CBGB

Forgive me.... If taking HCG during cycle should it affect PCT dosing?

----------


## Hazard

> Forgive me.... If taking HCG during cycle should it affect PCT dosing?


What exactly do you mean?

should it affect your clomid/nolva dosing..... or should it affect HCG in pct?

I did clomid 100,50,50,50 and nolva 40,40,20,20 (had a little lump so ran nolva at 40 for another week)

I wouldn't run HCG in pct.....

~Haz~

----------


## CBGB

Should it affect clomid/ nolva dosing?

----------


## CBGB

Perhaps I don't quite understand how this works.

What I'm getting at is. If the HCG aids in recovery/ prevents complete shut-down. Does pct need to be as long and at the same dosage as it would without the HCG?

----------


## Hazard

> Should it affect clomid/ nolva dosing?


No..... you'll still have test in your system...... still shut down. I'd keep dosing the same. Worked like a charm for me  :Smilie:  The HCG should helpo you recover faster..... but not while still on cycle.

~Haz~

----------


## CBGB

Thank you very much. 

Nice thread SWIFTO. Great information

----------


## Matt

Bump..

----------


## wukillabee

> Good information


Agree. Used hcg my last cycle during the last 5 weeks leading up to my pct. I did 2 500iu shots a week for 5 weeks then started pct and recovered much quicker then previously on a lighter cycle without hcg!
This time im using hcg throughout the entire cycle to see if theres any difference between throughout cycle for me or higher dose at the end leading up to pct. I start my hcg at week 4 (using long esters) and doing 250iu shots twice a week, same as my test and deca shots. Guess ill know 14 weeks later the results, haha!

----------


## wukillabee

> No..... you'll still have test in your system...... still shut down. I'd keep dosing the same. Worked like a charm for me  The HCG should helpo you recover faster..... but not while still on cycle.
> 
> ~Haz~


Yep! I dont see why anyone would not use hcg on cycle? I mean, it so beneficial, dirt cheap and never ever faked, just a couple shots a week of .1ml depending on how u dose/mix it, so many reasons to use it and not one reason not to use it!

----------


## Swifto

> Yep! I dont see why anyone would not use hcg on cycle? I mean, it so beneficial, dirt cheap and never ever faked, just a couple shots a week of .1ml depending on how u dose/mix it, so many reasons to use it and not one reason not to use it!


Exactly. 

Some seem to get away without it though. Or so it seems short term. 

HCG should be a part or almost every cycle IMHO.

----------


## lift2win

great read swifto. my one question that i am curious about is 3 weeks into a cycle to late to start? i dont believe i will already be shut down by then. i am running 500mg sust a week and 50mg dbol 6 days a week. so if i do 250iu hcg twice a week keep my testicles in check and normal size?

----------


## M302_Imola

> I would start at week 4 and run it through week 14 at 250iu's 3x a week.....
> 
> ~Haz~


thanks bro!

----------


## RANA

Great read, eye opening for me

----------


## Swifto

> great read swifto. my one question that i am curious about is 3 weeks into a cycle to late to start? i dont believe i will already be shut down by then. i am running 500mg sust a week and 50mg dbol 6 days a week. so if i do 250iu hcg twice a week keep my testicles in check and normal size?


I dont think it will be too late to start, no. You may initially need slightly more. Try 500ius 2 or 3 times the first week, then down to 125-250ius.

----------


## xnotoriousx

Ok what if you don't care about your testicles shrinking, should you still take HCG during cycle? I've got 2-3 weeks until I start my cycle and still am considering if I should get some HCG or not. 

12 weeks test e and 4 weeks dbol , what do i risk by not using hcg during this cycle other than not getting testicular shrinkage?

Will just clomid and nolva not be enough to get you back to normal?

----------


## c-Z

That just about sums up any questions i had on HCG .

Good post.

----------


## jab1234

whats the shortest cycle length that you feel HCG is necessary? For example would a 6 week cycle require HCG or is it short enough not to worry about complete shutdown?

----------


## Swifto

> Ok what if you don't care about your testicles shrinking, should you still take HCG during cycle? I've got 2-3 weeks until I start my cycle and still am considering if I should get some HCG or not. 
> 
> 12 weeks test e and 4 weeks dbol , what do i risk by not using hcg during this cycle other than not getting testicular shrinkage?
> 
> Will just clomid and nolva not be enough to get you back to normal?


Its not jsut about your testes "shrinking". When there not used, they become desensitised to ganadotrophins. You need to keep them stimulated if you want to avoid the onset of testicular dysfunction.

----------


## Swifto

> whats the shortest cycle length that you feel HCG is necessary? For example would a 6 week cycle require HCG or is it short enough not to worry about complete shutdown?


This is a tricky question.

Marcus300 is probably the best personal to ask this. He has done both short high dosed cycles and lengthy ones. 

Using HCG at low/moderate doses will benifit your testes during times of shutdown. Cycles over 4 weeks when the HPTA is fully shutdown is when I'd include HCG.

----------


## tembe

do you believe hcg is needed on a 10 week cycle of 500mg test e and 35mg dbol 4 week kickstart? 

Its my first cycle and im in week 3.

----------


## Hazard

> do you believe hcg is needed on a 10 week cycle of 500mg test e and 35mg dbol 4 week kickstart? 
> 
> Its my first cycle and im in week 3.


If you can get it..... I personally would run it. It's not going to kill you if you don't run it but it does make recovery easier.....

~Haz~

----------


## xnotoriousx

> do you believe hcg is needed on a 10 week cycle of 500mg test e and 35mg dbol 4 week kickstart? 
> 
> Its my first cycle and im in week 3.


Same thing i'm about to run and I won't be using it, but after reading all of this, I have to wonder how dumb of a decision that might be....

----------


## tembe

how would i use it as i can only get it by around week 7-8?

----------


## Swifto

> how would i use it as i can only get it by around week 7-8?


Start at 500ius 3 times for the first 2 weeks, then back down to 250ius 2-3 times weekly until you finish your cycle. If your not using an AI, you may want to add one due to the increase in estrogen.

----------


## Swifto

Bump

----------


## Critical Mass

Good read. I will never cycle without hcg or AI ever again.

----------


## LIONKING123

Hi,

Finished a 7 week cycle 3 weeks ago.

Is it to late to start HCG as testes still shrunk?
Using Nolva 20mg for PCT for last 2 week

----------


## RusselGaint

So if your in a 12week cycle, then you starts your first shot of hcg at week4. do you take it throughout your cycle for 8weeks? i heard some people say they wont run it longer than 4weeks.

----------


## sizerp

What about a 6-8 week cycle of Prop? HCG really needed?

----------


## sizerp

What about running HMG in combination with HCG for a couple weeks?... Or in place of HCG altogether? Why isn't this discussed more?

----------


## Skippa

If you start the HCG from week 4 - 15, When do you start the AI. Is it week 1 or the same time you start the HCG.

And do you finish the AI at end of cycle or carry on till pct?

Thanks guys

----------


## Swifto

> Hi,
> 
> Finished a 7 week cycle 3 weeks ago.
> 
> Is it to late to start HCG as testes still shrunk?
> Using Nolva 20mg for PCT for last 2 week


HCG during PCT is counterproductive IMHO. Its best used during, not in PCT.

Stay on the Tamox for a few more weeks, it will raise endogenous T considerably.

----------


## Swifto

> So if your in a 12week cycle, then you starts your first shot of hcg at week4. do you take it throughout your cycle for 8weeks? i heard some people say they wont run it longer than 4weeks.


Start with 500ius 3 times in the first week (week 4), then back down to 250ius 2-3 times weekly until PCT starts.

----------


## Swifto

> What about a 6-8 week cycle of Prop? HCG really needed?


You can probably get away with not using it, but it will maintain testicular size and function when shutdown so it wont hurt at all. If you can get it, use it.




> What about running HMG in combination with HCG for a couple weeks?... Or in place of HCG altogether? Why isn't this discussed more?


I actually dont know an awful lot about HMG. Other than it mimics FSH, which is primarily for sperm prodction in the testes. 

I'm looking into HMG at present.

----------


## Swifto

> If you start the HCG from week 4 - 15, When do you start the AI. Is it week 1 or the same time you start the HCG.
> 
> And do you finish the AI at end of cycle or carry on till pct?
> 
> Thanks guys


Start the AI when you start the HCG.

Run the AI until the day before PCT begins.

----------


## Mooseman33

Swifto:
great read man..ur posts are the best bro, please keep the info coming....

----------


## LIONKING123

> HCG during PCT is counterproductive IMHO. Its best used during, not in PCT.
> 
> Stay on the Tamox for a few more weeks, it will raise endogenous T considerably.


Thanks too Swifto!

Anything i can do to counteract the rise in endogenous T with Nolva?
Testes are still shrunk too. As i've missed the window for HCG....anything else i can do?

----------


## Hazard

> Thanks too Swifto!
> 
> Anything i can do to counteract the rise in endogenous T with Nolva?
> Testes are still shrunk too. As i've missed the window for HCG....anything else i can do?


 
clomid and nolva together ought to do the trick...... if that doesn't work.... i mite try a low dose of HCG for a week or two as thats what my fathers HRT doc prescribes..... but the clomid/nolva ougt to doit.

~Haz~

----------


## Swifto

> Thanks too Swifto!
> 
> Anything i can do to counteract the rise in endogenous T with Nolva?
> Testes are still shrunk too. As i've missed the window for HCG....anything else i can do?


The Tamox and Clomid will bring them back, although it maybe a short while.

HCG will also bring them back sooner, becuase it directly stimulates the testes. If the SERMs dont bring back testicular size/volume after 5-6 weeks, use some HCG or HMG. Then back on the SERMs.

----------


## crazy_rocks

it was mentioned to take hcg during cycle with ai. 

does hcg or ai effect gains while on test at all? 

i thought ia did which is why people take it only if needed.

----------


## Swifto

> it was mentioned to take hcg during cycle with ai. 
> 
> does hcg or ai effect gains while on test at all? 
> 
> i thought ia did which is why people take it only if needed.


If you can get away with not using one, dont. Some use AI's and are fine. Meaning their gains are only marginally reduced. I think the benifit of running an AI outweigh the negatives, for me anyway. 

Others tend to use SERMs or DHT-derivatives to counter estrogenic sides.

----------


## crazy_rocks

so could i just take hcg during my cycle of test without other ai's?

----------


## TwoGuns

....

----------


## King JRoc

Great thread!!!

I am trying to find some hcg for my upcoming cycle with not much success...

Is there any alternatives I could try to find that might replace the hcg???

----------


## crazy_rocks

maybe i should rephrase my question.

for the specific side effect of ball shrinkage hcg is good alone correct?

----------


## Hazard

> maybe i should rephrase my question.
> 
> for the specific side effect of ball shrinkage hcg is good alone correct?


yup.... 250iu's 2-3 times a week - they shouldn't shrink

~Haz~

----------


## Swifto

> so could i just take hcg during my cycle of test without other ai's?


It depends how prone to estrogenic sides you are.

----------


## M302_Imola

> maybe i should rephrase my question.
> 
> for the specific side effect of ball shrinkage hcg is good alone correct?


Yes but also note that the use of HCG on cycle will increase estrogen which could lead to more sides...this is why an AI is suggested to run along-side the HCG.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> Yes but also note that the use of HCG on cycle will increase estrogen which could lead to more sides...this is why an AI is suggested to run along-side the HCG.


understood, thanx everyone.

----------


## bobofet

How exactly is HCG shot? Is it IM like the test or otherwise? I am 9 wks in a test cyp cycle. I wasn't planning on using HCG, but think I want to use along with Nolva and aromasin in PCT. So what size pins will I need? 

Test cycle is 500mg/wk for 14wks

----------


## sizerp

Sub-Q... my mom shoots this shit... if she can do it, anyone can.

----------


## M302_Imola

> Sub-Q... my mom shoots this shit... if she can do it, anyone can.


w/ an insulin needle?

----------


## marcus300

> w/ an insulin needle?


yes......

----------


## BJJ

> This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.


It would not be wiser for a novice on his first cycle to avoid putting to many drugs throughout the cycle?
Might be your advices more effectives to those who already have a direct experience and know the way their bodies go through?
I mean I could run a 10W cycle with Test 500mg EW (2 shots) and in the last 2W using HCG 500iu ED + Nolva 20mg ED. Then 2W rest and start the PCT with Nolva, Clomid and an AI on hand.
What would you do if you were me?
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

----------


## ma3adi_Darkman

man i just finsh my cut cycle from 1 week it was 12 weeks cycle ..so can i start taking hcg or it too late .. thankss all

----------


## Swifto

> It would not be wiser for a novice on his first cycle to avoid putting to many drugs throughout the cycle?
> Might be your advices more effectives to those who already have a direct experience and know the way their bodies go through?
> I mean I could run a 10W cycle with Test 500mg EW (2 shots) and in the last 2W using HCG 500iu ED + Nolva 20mg ED. Then 2W rest and start the PCT with Nolva, Clomid and an AI on hand.
> What would you do if you were me?
> Thank you very much, I appreciate it.


That protocol would work and should bring the testes back, yes.

Although I think (next time you cycle) using it throughout at a low dose is best. That way testicular dysfunction can be avoided.

I dont think its a question of using the least amount of drugs for someone conducting their first cycle. You want to be able to bounce back successfully and using HCG or HMG during your cycle is the most effective protocol.

----------


## sizerp

Just thought I'd share something on HMG -

This is a post by Pp.

_"HCG_ _is not really lh - leutenizing hormone - , it mimicks lh - leutenizing hormone - but it has a much longer half life of about 3-4 DAYS. Because of its longer half life it tends to quickly reduce the testes sensitivity because it ‘lingers’ in the system for so long. The lh - leutenizing hormone - that your body produces naturally has a half life of only about an hour, and is released in hourly bursts throughout the day.

HMG is generally only considered for fertility, but it actually is pretty awesome for PCT - post cycle therapy - . The only downside is the price, since you need 1 amp TWO to THREE times a day for the maximum effect, and this can get quite expensive. But since its bio-identical to the body’s natural gonadotropins it is highly effective to stimulating testosterone production. Plus is has the added synergy of FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , which increases the testes sensitivity to lh - leutenizing hormone - , thus allowing the testes to produce more testosterone.

-Pp"_

----------


## BJJ

> That protocol would work and should bring the testes back, yes.
> 
> Although I think (next time you cycle) using it throughout at a low dose is best. That way testicular dysfunction can be avoided.
> 
> I dont think its a question of using the least amount of drugs for someone conducting their first cycle. You want to be able to bounce back successfully and using HCG or HMG during your cycle is the most effective protocol.


Thanks a lot for your reply and suggestions.

----------


## roid_rage

> So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG .
> 
> *HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens*, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.
> 
> HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.
> 
> I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.
> 
> 
> ...


I have only one problem with that? while your are HPT is supress by roids, you cant restore the negative feed back, as long as there is roids on your blood stream, that saying, your wont be able to produce endogenous test, but keep your testes alive... If so, then can we assume that we can just run a mono Deca cycle without test and just use HCG??? If the HCG is able to keep endogenous test production while on cycle, then it should work... 

by the way, the study only says that it was able to mantain ITT, not serum T.

----------


## Swifto

> I have only one problem with that? while your are HPT is supress by roids, you cant restore the negative feed back, as long as there is roids on your blood stream, that saying, your wont be able to produce endogenous test, but keep your testes alive... If so, then can we assume that we can just run a mono Deca cycle without test and just use HCG ??? If the HCG is able to keep endogenous test production while on cycle, then it should work... 
> 
> by the way, the study only says that it was able to mantain ITT, not serum T.


I'm aware what the study states. I stated it maintain endogenous T from correspondance with Dr.Crisler via PM's over at PM.com. 

Although the HP is "shutdown" from androgens the leydig cells are still stimulated directly via HCG administration. 

In theory, yes, you could run a Deca cycle with HCG. But to run an effective dose of testosterone (with it if you will) you'de need to use fairly large amounts of HCG and risk desensitisation. You would also raise estrogen and progesterone a fair bit, via aromotase and direct production from the testes.

There is no logic in running Deca/HCG anyhow. Running a testosterone preperation would be more cost effective, provide more stable androgen levels and not risk desensitisation.

----------


## roid_rage

> I'm aware what the study states. I stated it maintain endogenous T from correspondance with Dr.Crisler via PM's over at PM.com. 
> 
> Although the HP is "shutdown" from androgens the leydig cells are still stimulated directly via HCG administration. 
> 
> In theory, yes, you could run a Deca cycle with HCG. But to run an effective dose of testosterone (with it if you will) you'de need to use fairly large amounts of HCG and risk desensitisation. You would also raise estrogen and progesterone a fair bit, via aromotase and direct production from the testes.
> 
> There is no logic in running Deca/HCG anyhow. Running a testosterone preperation would be more cost effective, provide more stable androgen levels and not risk desensitisation.


how so?? why would you need to use a bigger dosis of HCG? if 250 ui e5d can keep your endogenous T production going on, why would you need more?? 

if the HCG can keep your endogenous T production while on roids, then heck, why in the hell do we need PCT if your body never stops making test? to combat strgones? if we are using Deca, there wont be too many estrogens going around, hell, add letro to the cycle, and you wont have stronges, your body will still make test, so there you go.. we are fine... no PCT needed. 

Lets put aside the fact that of course will be better to use test, but in theory, using Deca and HCG during cycle will be able to prevent libido problems for example?

----------


## Swifto

> how so?? why would you need to use a bigger dosis of HCG ? if 250 ui e5d can keep your endogenous T production going on, why would you need more?? 
> 
> *250ius will maintain endogenous testosterone. That doesnt mean it will prevent labido problems whilst on progestins such as Deca/Tren. It maintains endogenous T, thats not up for debate IMHO. What is up for debate is how much HCG you'de need administer to replicate exogenous testosterone levels. I suspect you'de need to higher dose and risk desensitisation.*
> 
> if the HCG can keep your endogenous T production while on roids, then heck, why in the hell do we need PCT if your body never stops making test? to combat strgones? if we are using Deca , there wont be too many estrogens going around, hell, add letro to the cycle, and you wont have stronges, your body will still make test, so there you go.. we are fine... no PCT needed. 
> 
> *No, its not that simple. Re-read my first post in this thread. Its clear you dont understand it. Also, read my PCT Sticky. 
> 
> HCG will prevent testicular dysfunction. We still need to use SERMs to bring back the hypothalamus and get endogenous testosterone prodcution back (naturally) to basline post cycle.* 
> ...


bolds

----------


## roid_rage

> bolds


I guess it is to determinate how much endogenous T is produce by your body then.

----------


## Swifto

> I guess it is to determinate how much endogenous T is produce by your body then.


Even then, whats the point? How can you be sure you'de be attaining stable blood plasma concentrations?

Test Enanthate at 600mg/wk, for example, will get your total T upto around 2750-3000. If your wanting to replicate that using HCG , your going to need a lot of it IMHO. Then your risking leydig cell desensitisation and desensitisation to the bodies own LH during PCT. 

HCG isnt a substitute for exogenous testosterone .

Its a bullshit idea anyway you look at it.

----------


## BJJ

> That protocol would work and should bring the testes back, yes.
> 
> Although I think (next time you cycle) using it throughout at a low dose is best. That way testicular dysfunction can be avoided.
> 
> I dont think its a question of using the least amount of drugs for someone conducting their first cycle. You want to be able to bounce back successfully and using HCG or HMG during your cycle is the most effective protocol.


I just read you suggested in another thread as well as in this one actually,
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=349581
to use HCG during cycle 125/250ius 2-3 times per W with an AI (in case needed).
Since I was suggested to pin HCG 500iu ED the last 2W of cycle + Nolva 20mg ED, what would you advise me as per your experience?
I mean, should I implement HCG on cycle with adex or nolva, which are my drugs on hand?
Thank you.

----------


## Swifto

> I just read you suggested in another thread as well as in this one actually,
> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=349581
> to use HCG during cycle 125/250ius 2-3 times per W with an AI (in case needed).
> Since I was suggested to pin HCG 500iu ED the last 2W of cycle + Nolva 20mg ED, what would you advise me as per your experience?
> I mean, should I implement HCG on cycle with adex or nolva, which are my drugs on hand?
> Thank you.


You can run it in the final few weeks, but who's to say it works everytime. Again, you can prevent testicular dysfunction using HCG DURING your cycle. Thats the "roadblock" in restarting the HPTA post cycle. I'm not sure using HCG in the final few weeks of a cycle will avoid testicular dysfunction. But using it throughout will.

I'd use HCG/Arimidex at 250ius twice a week and PCT with Clomid/Tamox, Tore/Clomid or Tore/Tamox.

----------


## LIONKING123

> The Tamox and Clomid will bring them back, although it maybe a short while.
> 
> HCG will also bring them back sooner, becuase it directly stimulates the testes. If the SERMs dont bring back testicular size/volume after 5-6 weeks, use some HCG or HMG. Then back on the SERMs.


Do i need Clomid to bring testi's back to size?
The Nolva vs Clomid sticky promotes using Nolva as brings test base levels up.
Although....have been on Nolva 20mg alone for 3 weeks and testes still shrunk

----------


## Swifto

> Do i need Clomid to bring testi's back to size?
> The Nolva vs Clomid sticky promotes using Nolva as brings test base levels up.
> Although....have been on Nolva 20mg alone for 3 weeks and testes still shrunk


Tamox alone will bring back endogenous testosterone levels eventually. I liike low dose Clomid added to it though. 25mg/ED of Clomid can raise total T by 146%. Thats more than any Tamox study I have ever seen.

You could also look into Toremifene, which is also VERY good at restoring the HPTA.

Next time, use HCG during your cycle and you shouldnt have the problem your experiencing now.

----------


## xephonics

So if I have no current access to HCG will I lose a lot more after cycle than if I did have it?

Just kind of wondering if I'm now destined to lose most of my gains, or if a good pct can help salvage most of my gains.

----------


## Swifto

> So if I have no current access to HCG will I lose a lot more after cycle than if I did have it?
> 
> Just kind of wondering if I'm now destined to lose most of my gains, or if a good pct can help salvage most of my gains.


It will be harder to bring endogenous T back to baseline, yes. That may mean a reduction in gains. But there are lots of variables to "keeping gains" post cycle.

It would certainly make things eaiser to attain gains post cycle. As the testes are already online and ready for the bodies own stimulation (LH, FSH).

----------


## xephonics

ok so, ill just take what i can get this go around, but before next cycle ill make sure i have some on hand.

----------


## Swifto

bump

----------


## dswanson

Im currently taking about 600 mgs a wk of test prop for my 2nd cycle.
Im also prescribed to lorazepam for anxiety but do not take it daily. 
Also i was thinking of taking clen for 2 wks on and 2 wks off at some point. 
Any problems here?

I have hcg but i am already almost 8 weeks into the cycle w/o ever using any of it. After reading this thread I'm thinking of adding hcg to my current cycle. Is this a good idea and how much would you suggest I use per week????


15% bf
age 24
205 lbs
6'0'' tall
12 wk cycle of test

----------


## Hazard

> Im currently taking about 600 mgs a wk of test prop for my 2nd cycle.
> Im also prescribed to lorazepam for anxiety but do not take it daily. 
> Also i was thinking of taking clen for 2 wks on and 2 wks off at some point. 
> Any problems here?
> 
> I have hcg but i am already almost 8 weeks into the cycle w/o ever using any of it. After reading this thread I'm thinking of adding hcg to my current cycle. Is this a good idea and how much would you suggest I use per week????
> 
> 
> 15% bf
> ...


 
I would start my HCG right now (wk 8) at 500iu's every 3rd day for 6 shots. So thats 6 shots of 500iu's in 18 days. then i'd drop it down to 250iu's 2-3 times a week through week 12. 

You're PCT starts roughly 3 days after your last prop injection. Don't run HCG into your PCT.

~Haz~

----------


## Swifto

> I would start my HCG right now (wk 8) at 500iu's every 3rd day for 6 shots. So thats 6 shots of 500iu's in 18 days. then i'd drop it down to 250iu's 2-3 times a week through week 12. 
> 
> You're PCT starts roughly 3 days after your last prop injection. Don't run HCG into your PCT.
> 
> ~Haz~


Correct.

E3D or EOD to start with, then maintenence with 250ius 2-3 times weekly.

----------


## crazy_rocks

male, age 28, 6'1, 180 lbs, serious since 2005.

im thinking about using hcg through my 1st cycle of test C at 500mg (250mg twice a week) for 12 weeks.

since the effects of test are not noticeable until week 4 or 5 would it still be necessary to use hcg in the beginning of the cycle or is it ok to start around week 4 or 5? 

was thinking about using hcg at 250 ius 2 or 3 times per week.

----------


## The Deuce

I wish I had KNOWN this for the past 7 months, I literally would have been running 125iu's Twice a WEEK with my TRT to keep my TESTES functioning... I always thought HCG was something you ran the last 3 weeks of a CYCLE at 250iu's ED.. that's at least WHAT I HAD ALWAYS DONE.. from NOW on starting in 3-4 weeks of course is to just do a simple 125iu's E3.5days SAME TIME I do my TRT injects, I'll just SUB-Q the HCG...

Great Read.. Thanks !!

----------


## dswanson

So I can do Intramuscular along with the aas im currently doing right?? Can i mix it with the test prop???

----------


## BJJ

> HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.
> 
> I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.


Could also be applied to a only var cycle made of 8 weeks 60mg ed, even though the oxandrolone is a mild steroid ?
thank you

----------


## sickntired

> male, age 28, 6'1, 180 lbs, serious since 2005.
> 
> im thinking about using hcg through my 1st cycle of test C at 500mg (250mg twice a week) for 12 weeks.
> 
> since the effects of test are not noticeable until week 4 or 5 would it still be necessary to use hcg in the beginning of the cycle or is it ok to start around week 4 or 5?
> 
> was thinking about using hcg at 250 ius 2 or 3 times per week.


Only, I'm 5'6 @ 150lbs

Also a couple other Q's......
-is an AI needed while "on" or "off" with a beginner cycle like this?
- would a post cycle of Nolva / Clomid be ok? if not....?

----------


## crazy_rocks

> Only, I'm 5'6 @ 150lbs
> 
> Also a couple other Q's......
> -is an AI needed while "on" or "off" with a beginner cycle like this?
> - would a post cycle of Nolva / Clomid be ok? if not....?


i dont answer to many questions on here but your questions are pretty basic.

you should never do a cycle without an AI. you may need it.

and yes nolva and clomid are the best choices. sometimes you see people with a tweaked pct though, i dont have the knowledge to get into that.

----------


## crazy_rocks

someone please answer my question above. i have been patient for 1 whole day.

----------


## Swifto

> male, age 28, 6'1, 180 lbs, serious since 2005.
> 
> im thinking about using hcg through my 1st cycle of test C at 500mg (250mg twice a week) for 12 weeks.
> 
> since the effects of test are not noticeable until week 4 or 5 would it still be necessary to use hcg in the beginning of the cycle or is it ok to start around week 4 or 5? 
> 
> was thinking about using hcg at 250 ius 2 or 3 times per week.


Yes, its still suggested. As soon as the hypothalamus senses to much androgen activity, its shuts down (well, reduces considerably) hormone output.

But at "6'1, 180 lbs", I'm not sure your ready for a cycle, unless your single digit bodyfat %?




> someone please answer my question above. i have been patient for 1 whole day.


Chill out.




> Only, I'm 5'6 @ 150lbs
> 
> Also a couple other Q's......
> -is an AI needed while "on" or "off" with a beginner cycle like this?
> - would a post cycle of Nolva / Clomid be ok? if not....?


Its suggested an AI is used at a low dose. Some suggest it, others dont. I, however, wish I used one as I got estrogenic sides (that I'm stuck with) such as acne (scarring) and a small case of gyno.

Clomid/Tamox is fine, yes. Read my PCT sticky in that forum.

----------


## crazy_rocks

i dont have much fat on me at all.

----------


## LIONKING123

> Tamox alone will bring back endogenous testosterone levels eventually. I liike low dose Clomid added to it though. 25mg/ED of Clomid can raise total T by 146%. Thats more than any Tamox study I have ever seen.
> 
> You could also look into Toremifene, which is also VERY good at restoring the HPTA.
> 
> Next time, use HCG during your cycle and you shouldnt have the problem your experiencing now.


Thanks Swifto.

As i missed HCG during cycle, can i add a week of HCG now (5 weeks since my last jab) just to kick start gonads. Will this do more harm than good??

I am on my 4th week of Nolva.

----------


## marcus300

bump

----------


## BBall6

I have some HCG I was planning on using it about midway through my 10wk prop/NPP cycle (shot ED at 75mg each). After reading this, I am inclined to start using it now at the recommended 500iu/wk 3x/wk.

Doesn't is only last a little over a month if you keep it refrigerated? If I start now, I'm guessing 2 vials will get me through the end of my cycle. How do you know when the HCG goes bad?

----------


## BBall6

I know it states that it is just speculation, but in the profiles page: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199847 it states:

"As stated above the cycles of HCG should be in the 2 to 3 week range with a least one month off in between, you could stretch your cycle out to four weeks without any major concern if you are using lower doses. One should however take care when using HCG as prolonged use could repress the body’s natural production of gonadotropins permanently, but this is mostly just pure speculation as it does not have yet to be reported nor has there been a case of an overdose. To be on the safe side shorter cycles of HCG seem to be that of the norm. Most users cycle HCG near the end of a steroid cycle, you should start your HCG therapy on the last week of your cycle. For best results you should also run nolva while you run HCG as taking HCG by itself will do little to nothing and gyno even though rare may also flair up. Once the HCG cycle is finished you continue with your usual clomid or nolvadex (preferably the latter) for pct as it is more effective when used in conjunction HCG for pct. With an AAS cycle of 6 to 10 weeks HCG may not be necessary unless extreme doses of AAS were used or there is an existing problem of testicular atrophy or you are running a heavy oral only cycle. AAS cycles of 12 or more weeks should have HCG as a part of post cycle plan." 

I'm wondering if the cycling of HCG should still be implemented in order to keep from desensitizing too much? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just doing as much research as I can and saw 2 conflicting theories. I just want to know all angles of thought as to why I put different things in my body in the hopes of having the most successful and least long/short term side cycle I can. I like all the benefits listed in your theory, but wanted to check on the one possible downside I read about. As stated in my previous post, I'm in week 2 of my cycle and I am about to start the HCG protocol you listed, but I would like to know if I should cycle off the HCG for a couple weeks in the middle of the cycle?

Thanks

----------


## Swifto

> Thanks Swifto.
> 
> As i missed HCG during cycle, can i add a week of HCG now (5 weeks since my last jab) just to kick start gonads. Will this do more harm than good??
> 
> I am on my 4th week of Nolva.


There is no point now IMHO.

The Tamoxifen will begin to bring back endogenous testosterone production and LH/FSH levels should be on the rise. Using HCG may be counterproductive.

However, if your suffering from testicular dysfunction and SERM's dont work, HCG maybe an option.

Tamox/Clomid should bring your testes back online soon. 6-7 weeks of their use _should_, in theory.

----------


## Swifto

> I know it states that it is just speculation, but in the profiles page: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199847 it states:
> 
> "As stated above the cycles of HCG should be in the 2 to 3 week range with a least one month off in between, you could stretch your cycle out to four weeks without any major concern if you are using lower doses. One should however take care when using HCG as prolonged use could repress the bodys natural production of gonadotropins permanently, but this is mostly just pure speculation as it does not have yet to be reported nor has there been a case of an overdose. To be on the safe side shorter cycles of HCG seem to be that of the norm. Most users cycle HCG near the end of a steroid cycle, you should start your HCG therapy on the last week of your cycle. For best results you should also run nolva while you run HCG as taking HCG by itself will do little to nothing and gyno even though rare may also flair up. Once the HCG cycle is finished you continue with your usual clomid or nolvadex (preferably the latter) for pct as it is more effective when used in conjunction HCG for pct. With an AAS cycle of 6 to 10 weeks HCG may not be necessary unless extreme doses of AAS were used or there is an existing problem of testicular atrophy or you are running a heavy oral only cycle. AAS cycles of 12 or more weeks should have HCG as a part of post cycle plan." 
> 
> I'm wondering if the cycling of HCG should still be implemented in order to keep from desensitizing too much? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just doing as much research as I can and saw 2 conflicting theories. I just want to know all angles of thought as to why I put different things in my body in the hopes of having the most successful and least long/short term side cycle I can. I like all the benefits listed in your theory, but wanted to check on the one possible downside I read about. As stated in my previous post, I'm in week 2 of my cycle and I am about to start the HCG protocol you listed, but I would like to know if I should cycle off the HCG for a couple weeks in the middle of the cycle?
> 
> Thanks


No, you should not cycle off of it. 

If you do, the testes are no longer being directly stimulated via the HCG and testicular dysfunction may begin to set it. This is when recovery become harder.

My thread and facts on HCG have been compilled from doctors in the field (Endocrinologists), such as Dr.Crisler. The Profile on the main page is probably written by Anthony Conners (Roberts) who has no qualifications in this field at all.

----------


## BBall6

> No, you should not cycle off of it. 
> 
> If you do, the testes are no longer being directly stimulated via the HCG and testicular dysfunction may begin to set it. This is when recovery become harder.
> 
> My thread and facts on HCG have been compilled from doctors in the field (Endocrinologists), such as Dr.Crisler. The Profile on the main page is probably written by Anthony Conners (Roberts) who has no qualifications in this field at all.


What you've said makes sense to me and since the profile section never even stated what constitutes as "prolonged" and that it was just speculation about permanent repression, I will dose the HCG throughout my cycle at the 500iu/wk regimen dosed twice a week.

As far as HCG in general is concerned, how do you know when it has gone bad? I've heard they last about a month with bacteriostatic water when refrigerated which means I will need to use 2 of my vials to get me my 9 wks out of it.

----------


## Swifto

> What you've said makes sense to me and since the profile section never even stated what constitutes as "prolonged" and that it was just speculation about permanent repression, I will dose the HCG throughout my cycle at the 500iu/wk regimen dosed twice a week.
> 
> As far as HCG in general is concerned, how do you know when it has gone bad? I've heard they last about a month with bacteriostatic water when refrigerated which means I will need to use 2 of my vials to get me my 9 wks out of it.


HCG will just begin to lose effectiveness. I've never had any gone bad.

Dose it at 250ius 2x per week throughout.

----------


## xephonics

Ok I found a decent source to order hcg .

3 questions:

Would it be worth it if i can only get it during the last 1-2 weeks of my cycle, or is it already too late? And if not too late, how much would I shoot, and how long would I do it for?

It comes in a 5000iu ampule, how would I store it? I mean after you break an ampule it is not really sanitary to store, would I need to order some empty vials from ar-r , or some other way I am not aware of?

----------


## Hazard

> Ok I found a decent source to order hcg .
> 
> 3 questions:
> 
> Would it be worth it if i can only get it during the last 1-2 weeks of my cycle, or is it already too late? And if not too late, how much would I shoot, and how long would I do it for?
> 
> It comes in a 5000iu ampule, how would I store it? I mean after you break an ampule it is not really sanitary to store, would I need to order some empty vials from ar-r, or some other way I am not aware of?


What's your cycle? If you're running Test E and you have 2 weeks of injections left..... that means you have about 4 weeks to use HCG still. I would run it if I had it.

500iu's 3x a week for the 1st two weeks..... then for the next two weeks, while your waiting for the enanthate esther to clear, i'd run 250iu's 3x a week.

I store it in a sterile vial in the refridgerator.

~Haz~

----------


## xephonics

I have till oct 30th (my final test inj), but the hcg will take about 2 weeks to arrive.

Yes it is test E

and thx for the other info

----------


## Hazard

> I have till oct 30th (my final test inj), but the hcg will take about 2 weeks to arrive.
> 
> Yes it is test E
> 
> and thx for the other info


If you receive your HCG around october 5th you'll still have time. I'd use it as i have outlined above. 2 weeks of 500iu's 3x per week and then 250iu's 3x a week up until PCT

~Haz~

----------


## xephonics

thanks  :Smilie:

----------


## skyjumper

Great post thanks for the info

----------


## Hazard

> Great post thanks for the info


Yeah swifto's full of good stuff..... no homo  :Smilie: 

~Haz~

----------


## BJJ

> Could also be applied to a only var cycle made of 8 weeks 60mg ed, even though the oxandrolone is a mild steroid ?
> thank you


Since I received no clues from you on this post, I'll take it a s a "NO".

----------


## BBall6

> What's your cycle? If you're running Test E and you have 2 weeks of injections left..... that means you have about 4 weeks to use HCG still. I would run it if I had it.
> 
> 500iu's 3x a week for the 1st two weeks..... then for the next two weeks, while your waiting for the enanthate esther to clear, i'd run 250iu's 3x a week.
> 
> I store it in a sterile vial in the refridgerator.
> 
> ~Haz~


Yeah xephonics, do what Haz suggested. That is the way a majority of the people used to take HCG according to the research/reading I have done. I do like Swiftos idea better if you have it through the whole cycle, but doing a heavier dose at the end would still be better than nothing.

----------


## Hazard

> Since I received no clues from you on this post, I'll take it a s a "NO".


Yes you can still use HCG ..... maybe a lower dosage like 125iu's 2-3 times per week.....

~Haz~

----------


## Hazard

> I do like Swiftos idea better if you have it through the whole cycle, but doing a heavier dose at the end would still be better than nothing.


Just to be clear..... I would prefer it that way also..... but since he is already near the end of his cycle..... I've laid out what he can do to try and make recovery easier at this point.

~Haz~

----------


## BJJ

> Yes you can still use HCG ..... maybe a lower dosage like 125iu's 2-3 times per week.....
> 
> ~Haz~


thank you very much.
I think though, having made a big mistake.
Once received my 5000 IU HCG, I have put it in the refrigerator before mixing it and it is still there!
Is it still usable, as far as you are concerned?

----------


## Hazard

> thank you very much.
> I think though, having made a big mistake.
> Once received my 5000 IU HCG , I have put it in the refrigerator before mixing it and it is still there!
> Is it still usable, as far as you are concerned?


I don't see why not..... I don't think the refridgeration would hurt the powder.

~Haz~

----------


## BBall6

> thank you very much.
> I think though, having made a big mistake.
> Once received my 5000 IU HCG , I have put it in the refrigerator before mixing it and it is still there!
> Is it still usable, as far as you are concerned?


You'll be fine. Just be sure and refrigerate after adding the bacteriostatic water to it as it will greatly extend the life/ potency of it.

----------


## BBall6

> Just to be clear..... I would prefer it that way also..... but since he is already near the end of his cycle..... I've laid out what he can do to try and make recovery easier at this point.
> 
> ~Haz~


I realize that, I was just throwing my $.02 in there too  :Wink:

----------


## BJJ

thank you both of you.

----------


## Swifto

> I don't see why not..... I don't think the refridgeration would hurt the powder.
> 
> ~Haz~


Actually, some HCG (in powder form) comes in a cold bag. Thats how I have seen it in the UK anyway, from private doctor surgery's.

----------


## Hazard

> Actually, some HCG (in powder form) comes in a cold bag. Thats how I have seen it in the UK anyway, from private doctor surgery's.


Interesting..... so it wont really matter either way? Mine has never come in a cold pack..... just room temp. 

My fathers prescription HCG comes in powder form and also at room temp.....

~Haz~

----------


## Hazard

Hey swifto..... maybe you can help with this. I'll attach the link for a thread where HCG and prolactin came up..... any info would be awesome......

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=402239

----------


## Swifto

> Interesting..... so it wont really matter either way? Mine has never come in a cold pack..... just room temp. 
> 
> My fathers prescription HCG comes in powder form and also at room temp.....
> 
> ~Haz~


I dont think it matters a lot. Although once re-contristuted, I need to be refridgerated.

----------


## Swifto

bump...

----------


## Turin

I just got my HCG pack today, 

Package says:
Essex Pharma: Predalon 5000 I.E. 

It comes in a packet with 6 ampules, 3x powders and 3x 1ml liquids. 

I have never done a HCG run before and I am not very savvy on I.E. and unit measurements, so I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

If each ampule is 5000i.e. and that is 1ml ... A ml syringe is broken down into 10 units... If I want a 500i.e. injection that is 1 unit mark on the syringe correct?

A 1ml syringe is frickin small and measuring out 1 unit is not bad but some people were saying 250i.e. .. thats half a unit measurement, I would have to get some pretty tiny syringes to get that drawn correctly. 

Do I have this straight or am I completely wrong? I dont want to draw up and inject the wrong dosage of this stuff..

Also people mentioned storage, can someone gives some details on how to safely store the remaining content? ... Can I just draw it all into one syringe and store it in that? (not inj. from that same one of course)..

----------


## Swifto

> I just got my HCG pack today, 
> 
> Package says:
> Essex Pharma: Predalon 5000 I.E. 
> 
> It comes in a packet with 6 ampules, 3x powders and 3x 1ml liquids. 
> 
> I have never done a HCG run before and I am not very savvy on I.E. and unit measurements, so I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.
> 
> ...


Get some sterile 10ML empty vials and some extra sterile bac. water. You can get them from AR-R . Then mix the 5000ius with 10ML of bac. water. 1ML = 500ius HCG.

----------


## marcus300

bump

----------


## wrathchild212

I just started my 12week cycle today (first injection)..i am doing sustanon 500 - 750mgs with deca 400mgs..should i immediatley start HCG at lets say 250IU's 2 x a week ? 
and i would run it until a day before PCT am i right?

----------


## Swifto

> I just started my 12week cycle today (first injection)..i am doing sustanon 500 - 750mgs with deca 400mgs..should i immediatley start HCG at lets say 250IU's 2 x a week ? 
> and i would run it until a day before PCT am i right?


Yes.

With an AI.

----------


## Skippa

> Yes.
> 
> With an AI.


I read a very interesting article stating

"For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, *drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system*. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone ."


Can you please check this article out swifto and get back to me about your thoughts. It made alot of sense to me and help me understand HCG's use in bodybuilding.

Let me know...

Cheers

http://dangilliland.wordpress.com/20...-bodybuilding/

----------


## Swifto

> I read a very interesting article stating
> 
> "For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, *drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system*. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone ."
> 
> 
> Can you please check this article out swifto and get back to me about your thoughts. It made alot of sense to me and help me understand HCG's use in bodybuilding.
> 
> Let me know...
> 
> ...


You can stop the HCG when you stop the long estered androgen, yes. As androgen levels begin to decline, LH/FSH will rise, but the hypothalamus needs to sense a near hypogondal levels for LH to activate.

Some ramp there HCG dose during this peroid and it seems to work, but I dont see the point if one has avoided testicular dysfunction and the testes are still functioning. Your only going to then risk desensitising the testes to endogenous LH.

There are many pro's/con's to stopping the HCG and ramping the HCG dose in the leading days running to PCT. See what works for you, but I think stopping the HCG a few days out from PCT is advised.

----------


## Swifto

bump

----------


## J_SHOCK89

I keep hearing all these wonders about HCG one I am running a cycle of 1000 mg a week of test for 10 weeks 400-500 mg a week of tren at week four i am going to run anadrol for 50 mg a day for the last 6 weeks and I am also runnin eq for the last 5 weeks at 500 mg a week when should i administer my HCG and should i take with chlomid also I heard after running high dosages of test E for a long period of time its good to run some prop for a few weeks at the end of it ne help would be great thanks guys.

----------


## Swifto

> I keep hearing all these wonders about HCG one I am running a cycle of 1000 mg a week of test for 10 weeks 400-500 mg a week of tren at week four i am going to run anadrol for 50 mg a day for the last 6 weeks and I am also runnin eq for the last 5 weeks at 500 mg a week when should i administer my HCG and should i take with chlomid also I heard after running high dosages of test E for a long period of time its good to run some prop for a few weeks at the end of it ne help would be great thanks guys.


I'm not sure why you running long acting compounds like EQ for 5 weeks, your cycle may need some work. But I'm guessing you have atleast 10+ cycles under your belt if your using "100mg/wk Test"?

HCG is best used on cycle. At 250ius 2-3 times a week. If you were to start X amount of weeks in...Lets say over 5-6 weeks, a larger initial dose would be needed before reverting back to 250ius 2-3 times per week.

----------


## syd-bloke

Great post Swifto, could you do me a favor and help me out here? 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=404925

Thanks Champ

----------


## michael tyson

Bump

----------


## SG2009

> *So how important is HCG?*
> 
> When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.
> 
> Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction *in the signal* to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly. 
> 
> However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction *in the responsiveness to a signal* to produce testosterone.
> 
> The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.
> ...


great info. thanks for posting it here.

----------


## Swifto

bump

----------


## Indian Muscle

Currently on week 4 of this cycle:-

Week 1-8 Deca , 200mgs per week in one shot (Monday)
Week 1-8 Sust, 500mgs per week in two shots (Sunday & Thursday)
Week 9-10 Sust,250 mgs per week (Monday)
Week 11-12 PCT of Nolva and Clomid

When would i start HCG and at what dose? Please help

----------


## KimboHalfSlice

I would have started taking hCG by Week 4 at the latest.

I suggest you take 200iu of hCG every 2nd day.

Here's some instructions I posted earlier today: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=29

----------


## Indian Muscle

> I would have started taking hCG by Week 4 at the latest.
> 
> I suggest you take 200iu of hCG every 2nd day.
> 
> Here's some instructions I posted earlier today: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=29


I agree with you on this and this is what i had planned but got confused because of the suggestion given on this thread http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=227

----------


## KimboHalfSlice

> I agree with you on this and this is what i had planned but got confused because of the suggestion given on this thread http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=227


No no no, that's bad advice.

You have the two following choices:
1) Use hCG to stop your balls going out of action in the first place
2) Use hCG to give your balls a kick start when they've already shrunken and withered

The first option is far more preferable. Of course, for people who have shrunken balls, it will help to take hCG, but the best thing to do is take hCG while on-cycle to minimise testicular damage.

I started a thread about this recently: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=405967

----------


## Swifto

> No no no, that's bad advice.
> 
> You have the two following choices:
> 1) Use hCG to stop your balls going out of action in the first place
> 2) Use hCG to give your balls a kick start when they've already shrunken and withered
> 
> The first option is far more preferable. Of course, for people who have shrunken balls, it will help to take hCG, but the best thing to do is take hCG while on-cycle to minimise testicular damage.
> 
> I started a thread about this recently: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=405967


Agreed.

----------


## dec11

i see he's gone off the idea of mixing it in a vial with test lol

----------


## management26

Does running HCG during my cycle affect the dose I run my adex at and if so why?

----------


## Swifto

> Does running HCG during my cycle affect the dose I run my adex at and if so why?


It wont raise estrogen too much to use a higher dose of your desired AI, no. Larger doses may, but not 250ius.

----------


## Indian Muscle

> No no no, that's bad advice.
> 
> You have the two following choices:
> 1) Use hCG to stop your balls going out of action in the first place
> 2) Use hCG to give your balls a kick start when they've already shrunken and withered
> 
> The first option is far more preferable. Of course, for people who have shrunken balls, it will help to take hCG, but the best thing to do is take hCG while on-cycle to minimise testicular damage.
> 
> I started a thread about this recently: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=405967


Thanks for the reply guys, So i will start HCG from week 4 but when will i stop the dosage? Till week 8 i will be on cycle, Week 9&10 just 250 mgs of Sust followed by week 11&12 PCT is my current plan.

----------


## KimboHalfSlice

> Thanks for the reply guys, So i will start HCG from week 4 but when will i stop the dosage?


I'm not an endocrinologist or any sort of medical practitioner, but I have some thoughts on when to stop taking hCG .

I think it's a good idea to stop taking hCG on the same day you stop taking steroids . I outlined my rationale for this in a recent post:

http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=33

You're free to accept or reject my advice, I'm not putting it forward as the gospel truth, and I could very well end up to be proven wrong.

----------


## 99vorsi

WHere do you get more bac. water to dilute it with??

----------


## 99vorsi

nevermind found it

----------


## Indian Muscle

I bought a pack of 5000IU HCG and on the pack it says Intramuscular injection only but i have read that it can be shot in the fat of the stomach, What do you guys suggest?

Another question - I have 5000IU HCG, 10ML water and Insulin syringes of 1ML. I will mix 5000IU HCG with 10ML water,if i want to take 500IU per shot then i would fill the entire 1ML syringe and if it is 250IU Per shot then half of the syringe. am i rite?

----------


## Swifto

> I bought a pack of 5000IU HCG and on the pack it says Intramuscular injection only but i have read that it can be shot in the fat of the stomach, What do you guys suggest?
> 
> Another question - I have 5000IU HCG, 10ML water and Insulin syringes of 1ML. I will mix 5000IU HCG with 10ML water,if i want to take 500IU per shot then i would fill the entire 1ML syringe and if it is 250IU Per shot then half of the syringe. am i rite?


Yes.

----------


## Indian Muscle

> Yes.


How about the injection, Intramuscular or Fat of the stomach?

----------


## Swifto

I prefer sub-q.

----------


## michael tyson

I have read all of the stickies and all the posts on HCG from this forum. I am still unsure the best way to spread out my 5000iu kit I will be receiving. I would like to take it throughout this cycle. 

Weeks
1-12 test E 600mg
1-10 deca 400mg
1-7 dbol 50mg/ED
10-13 winny 50mg/ED

14-17 PCT(nolv, clomid)

Swifto, your thoughts are much appreciated.

----------


## audis4

Can someone tell me other than, it's counter productive why not to include HCG in PCT?

----------


## Kibble

Cryste, you made a thread about this. You need to read more about it bro- like I said. Get your sterile vials and bac water now. Get one more 5,000iu kit. Once you do that then we can continue. How many 5,000iu ampules do you have?

----------


## michael tyson

> Cryste, you made a thread about this. You need to read more about it bro- like I said. Get your sterile vials and bac water now. Get one more 5,000iu kit. Once you do that then we can continue. How many 5,000iu ampules do you have?



ya, i posted here first then decided not to clutter Swifto's thread and made my own .

----------


## Kibble

Oh ok sorry about that bro

----------


## KimboHalfSlice

> Can someone tell me other than, it's counter productive why not to include HCG in PCT?


hCG has the same effect as Leutinising Hormone (LH) which is produced in your pituitary gland.

If you are using hCG to do the job that LH _should_ be doing, then your body will reduce the amount of LH it produces.

If you stop taking hCG, then that will actually give your body a reason to step up its production of LH.

The whole point of PCT is to wean yourself off all the drugs you've been taking and to get yourself back to exactly the way you were (with a little more muscle!). That means that you should be getting rid of the hCG and letting your body do things by itself with its own LH.

----------


## PO OFFICER

Swifto I have a question for you... 
Do you believe that hcg is needed on a 9-week cycle of 40mg of anavar ed ?? 

I was thinking about just running clomid so I can get my testes back working. Your opinion?

----------


## audis4

> hCG has the same effect as Leutinising Hormone (LH) which is produced in your pituitary gland.
> 
> If you are using hCG to do the job that LH _should_ be doing, then your body will reduce the amount of LH it produces.
> 
> If you stop taking hCG, then that will actually give your body a reason to step up its production of LH.
> 
> The whole point of PCT is to wean yourself off all the drugs you've been taking and to get yourself back to exactly the way you were (with a little more muscle!). That means that you should be getting rid of the hCG and letting your body do things by itself with its own LH.


excellent! thanks almond!

----------


## TBones

It's clear after 5 pages and umpteen million recomandations that it's better to run durring then shock your nuts back in gear after cycle....The few times somone asked about dosage at the end of cycle, it's gets redirected to "better to use during". LOL 

Anyway, i will consider that for next time after reading this thread. Good information. However, It's too late for this cycle. I'm 3 weeks away from the end. I've seen it two ways on this thread, 500iu ED and 500 to 1000iu EOD. So whats the consesus? 


TBone

----------


## BJJ

I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:

1.
Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d

2.
Week 1-10 Test Propionate 70 mg ed
Week 1-10 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
Week 5-10 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
Week 1-10 HCG 125 iu e3d

----------


## RA

Ill bump it by saying you have to be careful with hcg . If you run it at higher doses without nolva your going to have to go bra shopping.

----------


## Swifto

> It's clear after 5 pages and umpteen million recomandations that it's better to run durring then shock your nuts back in gear after cycle....The few times somone asked about dosage at the end of cycle, it's gets redirected to "better to use during". LOL 
> 
> Anyway, i will consider that for next time after reading this thread. Good information. However, It's too late for this cycle. I'm 3 weeks away from the end. I've seen it two ways on this thread, 500iu ED and 500 to 1000iu EOD. So whats the consesus? 
> 
> 
> TBone


I'd rather 500ius/ED for the final 10-14 days away from PCT with an AI. Then PCT with SERM(s).

----------


## Swifto

> I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
> I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:
> 
> 1.
> Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
> Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
> Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
> Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d
> 
> ...


I say start from week 1. It can take 1-3 weeks for endogenous T to shut off from the use of Test Enan. But when you add more androgens (Masteron ) there is more androgenic activity at the HP. So I'd assume a more rapid cessesation of endogenous androgens.

You may get away with 125ius. But I've been leaning towards 250ius 2-3 times a week recently.

----------


## BJJ

> I say start from week 1. It can take 1-3 weeks for endogenous T to shut off from the use of Test Enan. But when you add more androgens (Masteron ) there is more androgenic activity at the HP. So I'd assume a more rapid cessesation of endogenous androgens.
> 
> You may get away with 125ius. But I've been leaning towards 250ius 2-3 times a week recently.


Thanks for you reply.

Though, I am not going to add masteron but mesterolone (proviron ) which has nothing to do with HPTA.
So, even in this case you would suggest to start at week 1?

----------


## boz

great read ty!

----------


## jasperhup

great thread. I've heard some people say 500iu is the correct minimum dosage, are there thresholds that have to be crossed before HCG is dosed ideally?

I'd say 250uis split up makes sense intuitively, i'll be running it week 1 through 6.5 on my next 8 weeker.

----------


## Swifto

> Thanks for you reply.
> 
> Though, I am not going to add masteron but mesterolone (proviron ) which has nothing to do with HPTA.
> So, even in this case you would suggest to start at week 1?


Yes.

But I cant see a problem with week 2-3. Your covering more bases week 1.

----------


## Swifto

> great thread. I've heard some people say 500iu is the correct minimum dosage, are there thresholds that have to be crossed before HCG is dosed ideally?
> 
> I'd say 250uis split up makes sense intuitively, i'll be running it week 1 through 6.5 on my next 8 weeker.


Some get away with 125ius 2-3 times/wk. Other 250ius and 500ius. I wouldnt think anyone needs more than 500ius 2-3 times/wk IMHO.

----------


## TBones

> I'd rather 500ius/ED for the final 10-14 days away from PCT with an AI. Then PCT with SERM(s).


Great, thanks Swifto! I'll go 10 days since the math works perfect with the 5000iu pregnl i have. I have Adex and clomid. I was going to run it with the clomid but it sounds like it will be better to use the Adex with HCG and then Clomid after?

Thanks,
TBone

----------


## jasperhup

> Some get away with 125ius 2-3 times/wk. Other 250ius and 500ius. I wouldnt think anyone needs more than 500ius 2-3 times/wk IMHO.


fair points.

I know dub the new official HCG policy of JasperHup enterprises as the Swifto Protocol.

----------


## BJJ

> Yes.
> 
> But I cant see a problem with week 2-3. Your covering more bases week 1.


Thank you, much appreciate it.

----------


## Swifto

> Great, thanks Swifto! I'll go 10 days since the math works perfect with the 5000iu pregnl i have. I have Adex and clomid. I was going to run it with the clomid but it sounds like it will be better to use the Adex with HCG and then Clomid after?
> 
> Thanks,
> TBone


Correct.

----------


## TBones

> Correct.


Thanks again!

----------


## Hard.On

Ok,
Im reading this thread and what I dont understand is:

1) Is the point of PCT not to make your body function as it was before the cycle. ex. MAKE YOUR BALLS NORMAL

2) If HCG brings your balls back and normalizes you then why cant I do a PCT of HCG and adex?

this HCG is making my brain hurt. 

I want to do a cycle of:

10 weeks

test prop 125 ml eod 10 weeks
dbol 50mg a Day 28 days
if needed 0.25 adex eod or e3d


I have been told by gym vets not steroid .forum vets
that u can pct with HCG & Adex (according to them its better then putting breast cancer medicine for women in your body) :Hmmmm:

----------


## Swifto

> Ok,
> Im reading this thread and what I dont understand is:
> 
> 1) Is the point of PCT not to make your body function as it was before the cycle. ex. MAKE YOUR BALLS NORMAL
> 
> 2) If HCG brings your balls back and normalizes you then why cant I do a PCT of HCG and adex?
> 
> this HCG is making my brain hurt. 
> 
> ...


All the answers are in post #1.

----------


## TBones

> I have been told by gym vets not steroid .forum vets
> that u can pct with HCG & Adex (according to them its better then putting breast cancer medicine for women in your body)


Most ignorant statement i've heard in a while... If by Adex they mean Arimadex, then that *is* a breast cancer med, but it has a dual purpose like many meds. Even if it didnt, it's such a stupid non scientific thing to say. lol HCG is a fertility med for women and they dont seem to have an issue with that, or they dont even know trhat it is. And again, dual purpose... Stay away from those guys. They probably think that of they accidentaly used their wives deoderant it would lower their testosterone levels . 



TBone

----------


## gym=life

after reading ppl are saying to use them during ur cycle to keep ur nuts producing natural test im also on week 3 of my cylce and i feel slight discomfort in my balls does this mean that there already shutting down Ive also heard thats its for after ur done wiht ur cycle but hte common answer is to start low doasage in week 4

----------


## bjpennnn

> Most ignorant statement i've heard in a while... If by Adex they mean Arimadex, then that *is* a breast cancer med, but it has a dual purpose like many meds. Even if it didnt, it's such a stupid non scientific thing to say. lol HCG is a fertility med for women and they dont seem to have an issue with that, or they dont even know trhat it is. And again, dual purpose... Stay away from those guys. They probably think that of they accidentaly used their wives deoderant it would lower their testosterone levels . 
> 
> 
> 
> TBone


lol i though it did jkkk ha

----------


## Aizen Sosuke

This should be sticky. It took me 5 min to search it out and most newbies won't even attempt to.

----------


## Swifto

> This should be sticky. It took me 5 min to search it out and most newbies won't even attempt to.


Agreed.

I wish more would read it...

----------


## HuntMan

^^Great read! answered all my Questions..Should be a sticky

----------


## run_n_fool

Is HCG widely available from research companies in the same way PCT compounds are, or is it a tightly controled compound?

----------


## Swifto

> Is HCG widely available from research companies in the same way PCT compounds are, or is it a tightly controled compound?


Its not as accessable as research chems.

----------


## Fit N Fun

> if we are using Deca, there wont be too many estrogens going around.


Congratulations Swifto on a fantastic thread.

I use Trentest 300 (has 200mg/ml of test Cypionate and 100 mg/ml test Enanthate ) @ 1ml per week

+ 

Deca Nandrodex 300 ( has 300mg/ml Nandrolone Decanoate ) @ 1ml per week.

I was not aware of this thread before, but through experimentation had settled on 500 iu / week HCG from a few weeks in till the end of the cycle and it works great, just like you say it does. 

Reading the thread, my question is combining Deca and HCG appeared to not have your complete approval and would appreciate your thoughts.

----------


## SpotMe87

does anyone know how much bac. water you get in a vial in pregnyl?

----------


## Kdub

> I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
> I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:
> 
> 1.
> Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
> Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
> Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
> Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d
> 
> ...


PM sent instead...

----------


## BJJ

> I am about to start a test cycle, still unsure about what type of test.
> I wanted to ask you what could be the best HCG protocol in both cases:
> 
> 1.
> Week 1-12 Test Enanthate 500 mg ew (2x250)
> Week 1-12 Mesterolone 50 mg ed
> Week 7-12 Oxandrolone 60 mg ed
> Week 3-12 HCG 125 iu e3d
> 
> ...





> I say start from week 1. It can take 1-3 weeks for endogenous T to shut off from the use of Test Enan. But when you add more androgens (Masteron ) there is more androgenic activity at the HP. So I'd assume a more rapid cessesation of endogenous androgens.
> 
> You may get away with 125ius. But I've been leaning towards 250ius 2-3 times a week recently.


Is the use of an AI a must while using HCG during cycle?
Can I just try first with nolva?

----------


## Swifto

> Is the use of an AI a must while using HCG during cycle?
> Can I just try first with nolva?


You can, yes. But elevated estrogen levels can cause more problems in males than estrogen kept in low/moderate doses. Its personal preference, but I like to keep estrogen controlled. That way I can control my small case of gyno, acne and water retention.

HCG just casuses more estrogen. Via direct action on the testes to secrete more estrogen and through other pathways (aromotase).

----------


## Lethalius

What about for someone on Test indefinitely, for a period of years (not a cycle)? Is it safe to use HCG at 125 to 250 iu's, 2 to 3 times/week indefinitely? Lastly, if I am on 750mg/wk of test en for 1 year now, what dose of HCG should I start at before I ramp down to 125-250 ius? 

Thanks in advance,






> *So how important is HCG?*
> 
> When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.
> 
> Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction *in the signal* to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly. 
> 
> However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction *in the responsiveness to a signal* to produce testosterone.
> 
> The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.
> ...

----------


## Swifto

> What about for someone on Test indefinitely, for a period of years (not a cycle)? Is it safe to use HCG at 125 to 250 iu's, 2 to 3 times/week indefinitely? Lastly, if I am on 750mg/wk of test en for 1 year now, what dose of HCG should I start at before I ramp down to 125-250 ius? 
> 
> Thanks in advance,


You'de be better posting this in the HRT and Anti-Ageing Forum. I'm not on HRT and have no personal experience with HCG/HRT. 

From my understanding, it would be for cosmetic and fertility purposes. Otherwise I dont see the point. Your on HRT and not coming off, so HPTA function is of no, or little interest at all. Contact Big, he's on HRT and uses HCG.

This thread and article was written on advice given based on average cycles of 6-12 or so weeks, using exogenous androgens that cause full cessation of ganadotropins. It doesnt state use HCG "indefinitely" anywhere and that shouldnt be assumed. I'm going to add something along those lines to clear up any confusion.

Why do you ant to use HCG at all after 1 year? Are you coming off now? 

If your thinking of coming off, larger initial doses of HCG may be required to restart testicular function.

----------


## Lethalius

I am thinking of coming down to HRT doses of 100-200mg/wk of test and see how I like it. I may try that for several months and HGH at 4 iu's ed and see 
how my body responds. Coming off all the way makes me fear I will lose too much muscle. 

I have been mostly "on" for in excess of 2 to 3 years now and my testes have definitely decreased in size. I am wondering if I came off completely, if my body's HPTA could recover all the way? I really think I am going to need to be on low dose HRT the rest of my life given my past aas use/abuse and if I use HGH with it, maybe it will be okay for me. 





> You'de be better posting this in the HRT and Anti-Ageing Forum. I'm not on HRT and have no personal experience with HCG /HRT. 
> 
> From my understanding, it would be for cosmetic and fertility purposes. Otherwise I dont see the point. Your on HRT and not coming off, so HPTA function is of no, or little interest at all. Contact Big, he's on HRT and uses HCG.
> 
> This thread and article was written on advice given based on average cycles of 6-12 or so weeks, using exogenous androgens that cause full cessation of ganadotropins. It doesnt state use HCG "indefinitely" anywhere and that shouldnt be assumed. I'm going to add something along those lines to clear up any confusion.
> 
> Why do you ant to use HCG at all after 1 year? Are you coming off now? 
> 
> If your thinking of coming off, larger initial doses of HCG may be required to restart testicular function.

----------


## Little Herc

I'm gonna run some with my summer cycle. How much would I need for a 12 week cycle run thoughout?

----------


## Swifto

> I am thinking of coming down to HRT doses of 100-200mg/wk of test and see how I like it. I may try that for several months and HGH at 4 iu's ed and see 
> how my body responds. Coming off all the way makes me fear I will lose too much muscle. 
> 
> I have been mostly "on" for in excess of 2 to 3 years now and my testes have definitely decreased in size. I am wondering if I came off completely, if my body's HPTA could recover all the way? I really think I am going to need to be on low dose HRT the rest of my life given my past aas use/abuse and if I use HGH with it, maybe it will be okay for me.


If your thinking of coming off, you may need HCG . Because the testis have become atrophied from disuse, you'de be suffering from testicular dysfunction. That would warrant the use of HCG. 

You need to first figure out if your suffering from primary or secondary hypogonadism.

----------


## bboynoir

Hello If i am on a light deca cycle only of 250mg a week do you think HCG would help me to use throughout my cycle and PCT?Does it help with libido loss?And at what dosage??

----------


## Juice Authority

> Hello If i am on a light deca cycle only of 250mg a week do you think HCG would help me to use throughout my cycle and PCT?Does it help with libido loss?And at what dosage??


Deca only? Why?

----------


## bboynoir

because i dont want any dramatic changes in my body because i breakdance and i just aimfor 3 kilograms.I just hope the side effects can be avoided with HCG .I mean deca d**k and stuff.But my dosage is so small so maybe it's ok any opinions will be a great help.

----------


## O_TownKID613

if you run HCG throughout at a moderate dose on a cycle of all fast acting esters should you continue use 2 weeks after cycle as well or discontinue the use

----------


## Swifto

> I'm gonna run some with my summer cycle. How much would I need for a 12 week cycle run thoughout?


My protocol is based on exactly that. 

250ius 2-3 times per week.

----------


## Swifto

> if you run HCG throughout at a moderate dose on a cycle of all fast acting esters should you continue use 2 weeks after cycle as well or discontinue the use


Discontinue.

----------


## bboynoir

swifto can u help me with my question?its just some posts above!

----------


## Swifto

> because i dont want any dramatic changes in my body because i breakdance and i just aimfor 3 kilograms.I just hope the side effects can be avoided with HCG.I mean deca d**k and stuff.But my dosage is so small so maybe it's ok any opinions will be a great help.


You dont need AAS to "gain 3 kilo's". Post your diet in the Diet Forum. 

You shouldnt get "Deca dick" when using a testosterone preperation alongside it.

----------


## bboynoir

> You dont need AAS to "gain 3 kilo's". Post your diet in the Diet Forum. 
> 
> You shouldnt get "Deca dick" when using a testosterone preperation alongside it.


thanks man.So its ok to use like 2-3 HCG injections a week when i am on deca cycle right?Anything ekse I should take as a precaution?

----------


## Swifto

> thanks man.So its ok to use like 2-3 HCG injections a week when i am on deca cycle right?Anything ekse I should take as a precaution?


You should be using a form of Test with the Deca . Such as Enanthate , Cypionate or Propionate . Then combine Test/Deca with HCG for upto 12-14 weeks with an AI.

----------


## bboynoir

oh...man i'm a little diasapointed..can't i just do something else instead of using test ?I only want to use 1 steroid and thats deca ..

----------


## MotoLifter

> oh...man i'm a little diasapointed..can't i just do something else instead of using test ?I only want to use 1 steroid and thats deca..


then do what you want. 50 people have said dont do it andhave listed 100 reasons why not to and you refuse to listen. So go ahead and do it and have fun.


Moto

----------


## O_TownKID613

man u always need test bro for ne thing as ur base if u wanna use another type of steroid or u will shut down around 3 weeks after and feel like shit believe me when i was younger and didnt know shit about ne thing i took winny all alone for 5 weeeks biggest mistake of my life lol lost everything i gained got depressed and went looking worse than i did before my cycle

----------


## Madmax209

It's better to use AI (preferably which one) or nolvadex , while using HCG throughout the cycle? What I read, nolvadex is often suggested to use with HCG (helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing testicles to natural LH). Do AI provide same effect? Do you recommend higher dose of HCG when on cycle with higher dose of test (about 3g weekly) or keep the dose same (250iu)? Thanks

----------


## Swifto

> It's better to use AI (preferably which one) or nolvadex, while using HCG throughout the cycle? What I read, nolvadex is often suggested to use with HCG (helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing testicles to natural LH). Do AI provide same effect? Do you recommend higher dose of HCG when on cycle with higher dose of test (about 3g weekly) or keep the dose same (250iu)? Thanks


You need to experiement and see what works for you. I can get away with 250ius 2x week from starting week 1-3 and ending 1-2 weeks away from PCT. I your going to be starting HCG IN the cycle not throughout a larger doses will be required.

I use Aromasin 10mg/ED or EOD (depending on Test dose) during the cycle.

----------


## mg1228

quick question before i mix---using a slin pin---got 5000iu vial--do i mix 100 units af ba water to get 500iu per 10units?

i know u covered this in op--but the 1ml thing threw me off---thats 1 cc right?

----------


## Swifto

> quick question before i mix---using a slin pin---got 5000iu vial--do i mix 100 units af ba water to get 500iu per 10units?
> 
> i know u covered this in op--but the 1ml thing threw me off---thats 1 cc right?


1 CC = 1 ML

5000ius mixed with 10ml bac water is 500ius/ml.

----------


## mg1228

So 100 units of ba water in a slin pin mixed with 5000 iu vial of hcg aint 500 ius per 10 units?

I need to use a regular syringe and mix 10 cc--correct?

How many ius would I have been taking if I mixed it with 100 units ba water per 10 units?

----------


## Kibble

10 units would be a microscopic injection lol.

Swifto put it in the easiest mathematical solution possible- I like that.

I say to just mix 5-10ml of bac water with 5,000ius of hCG . It can't get any easier than that. I am making a new batch today when I get home

----------


## mg1228

it wouldnt b microscopic if u mixed 100units to a 5000iu vial----- i wanted to know how many iu per 10 units if a 5000 iu vial was mixed with 100 units of ba water---thanks anyway big kuntry

----------


## DS21

Great post! I always learn so much from your post, thanks!

----------


## Kibble

It would be 1/10 of a cc for 500iu of hCG

----------


## mg1228

> It would be 1/10 of a cc for 500iu of hCG


wouldnt that b 10 units on a slin pin?----100 units=1cc

thats the way i did it on my last cycle---i mixed 100 units to a 5000iu vial of hcg ---then i took 10 units---which i thought wouldve been 500iu 

am i wrong---or am i missing something

----------


## AlphaGenetics

Since Im very gyno prone would I need to run more ai during my cycle if I used hcg throughout? Would this inhibit gains even more for me?

----------


## Kibble

> wouldnt that b 10 units on a slin pin?----100 units=1cc
> 
> thats the way i did it on my last cycle---i mixed 100 units to a 5000iu vial of hcg ---then i took 10 units---which i thought wouldve been 500iu 
> 
> am i wrong---or am i missing something


You are right

----------


## mg1228

so u guys are pinnin 1 cc of hcg sub q with a slin pin?

----------


## Kibble

I pin 1/4cc (2.5 mark) on the insulin pin for 250iu

----------


## americanoak

so say you order 5000IU of HCG , you would mix the HCG with the 10ml of bac water all at once and then every time you need to use it you take it from the same 10ml bottle? Or everytime you want to take it you have to mix the hcg with the water and then take t?

----------


## mg1228

mix it all at once--i take it when u need it---should last about 30 days in the fridge

----------


## americanoak

Ok, that is what i thought.
Thanks Mg.

----------


## mg1228

so there is nothing wrong with the way i do it? 100 units ba water mixed with 5000 iu vial---to get 500 iu per 10 units

----------


## mg1228

the other way ur just pinnin more ba water than necessary, right?

----------


## Swifto

> so there is nothing wrong with the way i do it? 100 units ba water mixed with 5000 iu vial---to get 500 iu per 10 units


I dont have a Slin pin near me, but mine hold a maximum of 1ML. Which I think is 100units. Forget about the units on the Slin pin, thats confusing you...

HCG 5000ius mixed with 10ML = 500ius per ML.

That means the entire Slin pin filled is 500ius. Just remember Slin pins hold a maximim of 1ML and go from there. Half full is 250ius of HCG.

----------


## mg1228

that just seems like alot of fluid to inject subq--i get a little lump ingecting 2ius of gh

----------


## Kibble

It is not that much fluid. I did it for my entire first batch, just for the learning experience. It really isn't that much

----------


## Swifto

> that just seems like alot of fluid to inject subq--i get a little lump ingecting 2ius of gh


Then mix it 1ML = 1000ius. It doesnt really matter.

I just injected 1ML (650ius HCG ) Sub-Q. Its not that bad.

You can inject it IM too and mix it with your oil based shot but they come out at different speeds, so be careful. It looks like jelly when its in the barrell. With tiny air bubbles.

I checked my Slin pins. 100 Units = 1ML. 

50 Units = 0.5ML.

----------


## mg1228

thanks guys---just let me make sure

is my math right--1cc mixed to 5000iu= 500iu per 10 units on a slin pin

i just dont want to b injecting too much

----------


## Swifto

> thanks guys---just let me make sure
> 
> is my math right--1cc mixed to 5000iu= 500iu per 10 units on a slin pin
> 
> i just dont want to b injecting too much


500ius = 100 units on a Slin pin.

10 units is a small amount. 50ui's of HCG .

----------


## Kibble

Just do 10ml bac water lol. Don't worry about the excess bac water as of now. Just go with the guidlined mixture on this thread, until you get the feel for the entire process.... mixing to injecting to storage

----------


## mg1228

i will do that----that being said this is really bothering me

one more time---a slin pin is 100 units-correct 
1.mix 100 units ba water with a 5000 iu vial of hcg 
2.u would have 5000iu of hcg in a 100 unit slin pin
3.1/10 of 100units would b 10 units on a slin pin
4.1/10=10 units
5.10 units=500iu hcg

i know u guys are like "i wish this guy would shut the fuk up" but please tell me this is correct so i can sleep tonight

the reason i want to know is---i took 10000 iu of hcg this way on my last pct and suffered from bad acne

----------


## Swifto

> i will do that----that being said this is really bothering me
> 
> one more time---a slin pin is 100 units-correct 
> 1.mix 100 units ba water with a 5000 iu vial of hcg 
> 2.u would have 5000iu of hcg in a 100 unit slin pin
> 3.1/10 of 100units would b 10 units on a slin pin
> 4.1/10=10 units
> 5.10 units=500iu hcg
> 
> *i know u guys are like "i wish this guy would shut the fuk up" but please tell me this is correct so i can sleep tonight*


Ha ha ha...

Last time pal...

A regular 29G Slin pin holds 1ML, which reads "1oo Units" on the barrell. 

You need to get a 10 or 20ML empty vial.

Then mix 10ML's of bac water, with 5000ius powdered HCG. 

Now, 100units on the Slin pin = 1ML (still the same). 

100units (1ML) on the Slin pin = 500ius of HCG

50 units on the Slin pin = 250ius of HCG

It doesnt get more simple than that mate. 

I'm done.

----------


## Kibble

> i will do that----that being said this is really bothering me
> 
> one more time---a slin pin is 100 units-correct 
> 1.mix 100 units ba water with a 5000 iu vial of hcg 
> 2.u would have 5000iu of hcg in a 100 unit slin pin
> 3.1/10 of 100units would b 10 units on a slin pin
> 4.1/10=10 units
> 5.10 units=500iu hcg
> 
> ...



Your math is correct, but you are discecting this like a chemist. You are trying to reinvent the wheel. Don't be complicated. Just keep it simple your first time around. Swifto gave you everything you need to know for a successful hCG mixture

----------


## mg1228

i know he did--and i understand 100%---i was just trying to figure out how much i was taking before, mixing it like i was---did i not get that across---thought i did

----------


## OldManRiver

Ok ok

----------


## Hunter.S

going to get my hands on some HCG asap!!

----------


## panntastic

I am running a 15 week eq sust cycle when do you recommend starting hcg can I run low dosage throughout due to estrogen build up or should I do larger amounts towards pct?

----------


## Swifto

> I am running a 15 week eq sust cycle when do you recommend starting hcg can I run low dosage throughout due to estrogen build up or should I do larger amounts towards pct?


Go with a larger amount in the middle of the cycle, then a smaller maintenence dose. I have just done this with a 3-4 month cycle.

I havent recovered yet. But as soon as I introduced the HCG at 625ius/ED for the first 7 days I got acne. Thats either from an increase in T, E or progesterine. Which tells me my testis are firing again.

----------


## mikey24

for a 10-12wk test e cycle @ 400mg ew, w/a 4wk dbol kick start. should you start the hcg from the very start week 1? Would it be ok to shoot the hcg with the exact same schedule as the test e, every 3.5 days at 125iu's throughout the entire cycle from week 1- to week 12 or 14?

----------


## Swifto

> for a 10-12wk test e cycle @ 400mg ew, w/a 4wk dbol kick start. should you start the hcg from the very start week 1? Would it be ok to shoot the hcg with the exact same schedule as the test e, every 3.5 days at 125iu's throughout the entire cycle from week 1- to week 12 or 14?


Yes.

12-14 weeks is ok IMHO. I have used this protocol and not suffered with estrogen/progesterone side effects. Make sure you use an AI IMHO. Control estrogen where possible as the HCG will cause E2 levels to build.

Start with 250ius every 3.5 day. 125ius is a little low. You may even require 500ius if your slightly older...

----------


## JasonT

I'm currently planning my 1st cycle and was told that HCG might not be necessary...here's my outline:

Test E 500mg/week for 12 weeks
Test P 100mg/EOD for 1st 2 weeks (weeks 1-2) and last 2 weeks after last Test E injection (weeks 12-14)
PCT starts 3 days after last prop injection (nolva/clomid)

I was thinking about running .25mgs Adex/EOD and 500ius HCG (250 twice a week) throughout the cycle (weeks 1-14). Does this sound ok? 

Would it be better to start them on week 4?

----------


## Swifto

> I'm currently planning my 1st cycle and was told that HCG might not be necessary...here's my outline:
> 
> Test E 500mg/week for 12 weeks
> Test P 100mg/EOD for 1st 2 weeks (weeks 1-2) and last 2 weeks after last Test E injection (weeks 12-14)
> PCT starts 3 days after last prop injection (nolva/clomid)
> 
> I was thinking about running .25mgs Adex/EOD and 500ius HCG (250 twice a week) throughout the cycle (weeks 1-14). Does this sound ok? 
> 
> Would it be better to start them on week 4?


Week 1 or 4. It doesnt matter greatly. No later than week 4 though.

----------


## mikey24

> Yes.
> 
> 12-14 weeks is ok IMHO. I have used this protocol and not suffered with estrogen/progesterone side effects. Make sure you use an AI IMHO. Control estrogen where possible as the HCG will cause E2 levels to build.
> 
> Start with 250ius every 3.5 day. 125ius is a little low. You may even require 500ius if your slightly older...


thanks for the quick response. Well im fairly young will be 25 in a few months so I should get away with 250ius. So its perfectly fine to run the hcg up into the last day before pct starts? or should u discontinue use of it at the same time u discontinue your shot of test,which would obvisouly be 14 days prior to pct? :Hmmmm:

----------


## Swifto

> thanks for the quick response. Well im fairly young will be 25 in a few months so I should get away with 250ius. So its perfectly fine to run the hcg up into the last day before pct starts? or should u discontinue use of it at the same time u discontinue your shot of test,which would obvisouly be 14 days prior to pct?


Stop the HCG when you stop the Test Enan.

There is no need to use HCG longer than its needed.

----------


## ciptech

Great post Swifto, really completes the picture. It's like the missing piece of the puzzle.

----------


## MAKAVELI The Don

Great post.

----------


## fummins

Myself and a buddy are both on small dosages of Test Sust, 125 to 150 per week, he is 44y.o and I am 51. He ran across an old bodybuilder buddy who educated him on HCG and man is he is getting shredded, lost about 15 lbs of fat and still cutting. I ordered some and am getting my education sorted out before i pin it. I have some Anavar i have been saving for my summer cutting regimen, anyone ever stacked Test/Anavar/HCG with positive results?

----------


## Swifto

> Myself and a buddy are both on small dosages of Test Sust, 125 to 150 per week, he is 44y.o and I am 51. He ran across an old bodybuilder buddy who educated him on HCG and man is he is getting shredded, lost about 15 lbs of fat and still cutting. I ordered some and am getting my education sorted out before i pin it. I have some Anavar i have been saving for my summer cutting regimen, anyone ever stacked Test/Anavar/HCG with positive results?


I'd prefer if this thread sticked with HCG related questions and protocol ideas/suggestions.

----------


## fummins

> I'd prefer if this thread sticked with HCG related questions and protocol ideas/suggestions.


Understood Swifto, if you have an opinion on my question could you PM me your thoughts? Thanks

----------


## JuiceMonkey007

> I'd prefer if this thread sticked with HCG related questions and protocol ideas/suggestions.


I'm about to start my first cycle, 27,5'9 162lb, bf 12%
after educating myself pretty much I chose to go by this protocol:

1  10 Enan 500mg/wk
1  12 Nolvadex 10mg ED
1  12 L-dex .25mg ED

pct:

Day 1 300mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / .25mg L-dex 
Day 2 - 30 100mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / .25mg L-dex 
Day 31 - 37 20mg Nolva / .25mg L-dex 

Then I found this hcg thread... After reading it all and understanding it well I came up with the conclusion to stack it throughout my cycle
so I thought to go 125ius From week 1-10 twice/w the same days I shoot Enan!
Am I right?

----------


## Vullfromsc

I want to run HCG for this cycle:

week 1-10 test cyp 500mg / week (250 mg twice per week)
week 9-12 winstrol 50mg / day (split up evenly throughout the day)

PCT:

week 13-16 nolvadex 40mg/20mg/20mg/20mg
week 13-14 exemestane 20mg/20mg (still looking into this)

Would HCG included in here be alright to run like this:

week 2-12 HCG 500iu / week (250iu twice per week)

Is this a proper way to use HCG? (I don't want my balls to shrink)

If I run HCG like this, will there be anytime during cycle or PCT where I will be dysfunctional to have sex?

----------


## Jasongu9999

Good post as usual Swifto. I used your recommended pct and managed to keep all of my gains. Next cycle I will be using hcg as you recommend also.

----------


## Swifto

> Good post as usual Swifto. I used your recommended pct and managed to keep all of my gains. Next cycle I will be using hcg as you recommend also.


Good. Glad to hear it.





> Is 300ius/week enough for a simple 10wk test only cycle? Ldex at .25mg ED or EOD????


It depends on your age and HPTA. 250ius 2x week is usually ok, but sometimes 3x is needed. Or larger doses of 500ius 2x week.

Take a break from using HCG every 10-12 weeks too.

Start at week 2 or 3 and run it throughout. You could ramp it slightly leading to PCT.

----------


## TommyGUNZZZ

> Stop the HCG when you stop the Test Enan.
> 
> There is no need to use HCG longer than its needed.


I just had a question about this. Why would'nt you want to ride out the ester on Test E with HCG? (2 weeks after last injection) 

then wait 3 days until last HCG injection to start PCT

----------


## huckleberry

Will this prevent me from losing the ability to sustain an erection? and will it increase my chances of Gyno? good info but a little confusing, Ive taken t400 and got some unwanted side effects that most of the population get the complete opposite!!!

----------


## huckleberry

Will this prevent me from losing the ability to sustain an erection? and will it increase my chances of Gyno? good info but a little confusing, Ive taken t400 and got some unwanted side effects that most of the population get the complete opposite!!!

----------


## ironflames

i think after reading this i am going to add in some...especially doing a tren /test prop cycle for 8 weeks. all ive read about tren is that is shuts you down F****** hard. and if my body has one less thing to bounce back (test shrink) then thatll be a good thing.

----------


## Striatiostation

Again Swifto, you dont get enough credit from this forum for all your hardwork and help. Thanks again.

Have read through your whole post, 
Im very thorough. So just to clarify.

My Next Cycle

300 mg Test Prop -Weeks 1-12 - E/O/D
125 mg Tren Ace - Weeks 1-12 - E/O/D
Dianabol 50mg - Weeks 1-4 - E/D 
HCG 250iu X 2 Weekly - Weeks 1-11 - 7 Days Prior to cycle ending. Hit the Last Shot of HCG

5 Days Following Last shot of Prop/Ace
PCT 
Nolva- 40/20/20/10
Clomid- 40/20/10/10

does that sound correct to you?

----------


## Swifto

> I just had a question about this. Why would'nt you want to ride out the ester on Test E with HCG ? (2 weeks after last injection) 
> 
> then wait 3 days until last HCG injection to start PCT


It depends on the individual.

Recently I only used HCG the final few weeks of my cycle to experiment and recovered well. But its best used at a low dose throughout.

If you dont bounce back that well, you could ramp the HCG for the final 1-2 weeks of the cycle leading to PCT to kickstart the testes even more. It works well. As an example, 250ius 2x week on cycle, then the final 10-14 days leading to PCT as the ester clears, use 250ius-500ius/ED. Then begin PCT.




> Sorry, but can you elaborate on that? I'm young and healthy, and it will be my first cycle. 10 weeks of test e @ 600mg/wk with a typical nolva/clomid pct. I was planning on doing 150ius 2x per week (300ius/wk) for the entire 10 weeks.
> 
> Do you recommend more, being such a simple cycle, as well as my first?
> 
> Also what do you mean by ramp it into my pct??
> 
> Thanks Swifto, your the man for taking the time and effort to educate everyone!!


As I said above, it depends on the person. You need to experiemnt. But 300iu/wk is a little low IMHO. 250ius 2x week minimum. 




> Will this prevent me from losing the ability to sustain an erection? and will it increase my chances of Gyno? good info but a little confusing, Ive taken t400 and got some unwanted side effects that most of the population get the complete opposite!!!


It will help your chances of sustaining an erection. But I dont know why thats your concern when using a form of exogenous testosterone ? 

It maintains endogenous testosterone even when shutdown from AAS. If you take 2 steroid users on 500mg/wk Test Enan, one just TE the other TE + HCG. The TE + HCG user should have a higher total testosterone level.

HCG will increase estrogen directly (testes) and via aromotasation. Using an AI will help with the increase in aromotase and only Tamox will help with the direct increase in testicular estrogen. 




> Again Swifto, you dont get enough credit from this forum for all your hardwork and help. Thanks again.
> 
> Have read through your whole post, 
> Im very thorough. So just to clarify.
> 
> My Next Cycle
> 
> 300 mg Test Prop -Weeks 1-12 - E/O/D
> 125 mg Tren Ace - Weeks 1-12 - E/O/D
> ...


Clomid 50/50/25/25/25/25
Tamox 40/20/20/20/20/20

Use Aromasin 10mg/ED.

Your using over 1000mg/wk Test Prop?

----------


## Jaakoppi

BTW great post swifto. I have used test e, injecting two times/week, keeping short cycle. I've read that HCG would not store many days?!

----------


## chrisdc

Quich question...i have hcg 11000iu..i inject with 3ml of bact water--mix and inject .2ml ed..so what amount am i taking and is it enough..cant figuire it out..

----------


## Swifto

> So 250ius 2x week. Is ldex @ .25mg eod enough?


Thats fine.




> BTW great post swifto. I have used test e, injecting two times/week, keeping short cycle. I've read that HCG would not store many days?!


Once mixed 30-45 days refridgerated. If not mixed, 2-3 years.




> Quich question...i have hcg 11000iu..i inject with 3ml of bact water--mix and inject .2ml ed..so what amount am i taking and is it enough..cant figuire it out..


Go to post #1 of this thread. I write about how to convert HCG and make it more managable.

----------


## TommyGUNZZZ

thanks swifto

----------


## chrisdc

I still cant understand it with my numbers..11000iu with 3 ml of water..inject .15ml..how much am i taking

----------


## Swifto

> I still cant understand it with my numbers..11000iu with 3 ml of water..inject .15ml..how much am i taking


I've told you where to look (bottom of post 1). That explains it in full.

You need to buy some sterile 10ml vials and some bac water or sterile water. Then you can make the HCG far more managable. Its almost impossible to do it how your planning. 

Mix 5000ius with 10ml back water in a sterile vial. 1ml = 500 ius. 

I also have no idea how to do it with 11,000ius HCG with 3ml bac water. It wont last either. Refridgerated HCG lasts for 30-45 days. If you mix 11,000ius you'll waste the majority.

I explain all of this. How to make it more managble, how long its good for etc..

C'mon mate.

----------


## chrisdc

i tried to look at your page 3 times..i cant figuire it out ...lets say mine is 10000ius and i mix with 3 ml back water..then 1ml=333 iu's...and i take .15..SO I AM TAKING ABOUT 500 A DAY...THAT SOUND CORRECT...

NOW I KNOW WHY THEY FORCE YOU TO LEARN ALL THAT STUPID MATH IN SCHOOL YOU WILL NEVER USE IN REAL LIFE...INCASE YOU ARE GONNA USE GEAR..HAHAHA

----------


## fattywarbucks

Question:

Assuming 12 weeks of test e @ 250mg 2xs/wk
1-12 wks enth,14-18 wks pct

Running 250ius hcg 2xs/week
Weeks 4-14
With .25mg e3d Ldex wks 1-14
Would this be a good run?

Also, dumb question?
Hcg is shot IM, right? 

Why is this thread not sticky?

----------


## AlphaMaleDawg

Swifto (or anyone who can answer),

I am about to buy 5000iu of pregnyl hcg and planning on using 250iu 2 times per week. If I wanted to combine it with the test and deca I am currently running, how many CC should I draw to get 250iu?

OR is it better to inject sub-Q with a slin pin?

----------


## eddiea6987

Is HCG really easy to get? because i have found a website online who has it rather cheap , i just dont have any background knowledge of weather this stuff will actually be allowed into the U.S and if it as cheap as like 18 for an amp of 1000ius...
because i know if i go to the losers who get me my gear alll they know is Test they have no idea what PCT is , they are probably just middle men trying to make a buck.
but anyways yeah any info if HCG is really not a hassle to get ...?

----------


## eddiea6987

hmmmmm ok. dammit now i dont if i should buy this stuff and risk getting screwed

----------


## Swifto

Its not that easy to obtain, no.

PM me your source and I'll see if I can help mate.

----------


## Jaakoppi

How should I use my 5000iu HCG ? I'm on short (6weeks) test e with Methanox 20-30MG/ed. I haven't started HCG because I've heard that you can start HCG IN THE SAME WEEK YOU HIT THE LAST TEST SHOT. I'm going to hit my last Test in next week.

----------


## Swifto

> How should I use my 5000iu HCG? I'm on short (6weeks) test e with Methanox 20-30MG/ed. I haven't started HCG because I've heard that you can start HCG IN THE SAME WEEK YOU HIT THE LAST TEST SHOT. I'm going to hit my last Test in next week.


Well, you missed the boat in regards to using HCG how I outline in this thread - to prevent testicular dysfunction.

But all is not lost. You can use HCG the final 10-14 days leading to PCT (whether your on exo. Test or not) to kickstart the testes. 250-500ius/ED with an AI is my suggestion. Then conduct PCT with SERM(s).

----------


## Jaakoppi

Ok that's good to know. Thanks for information.

----------


## Indian Muscle

I tried injecting HCG in the stomach fat and soon as the pin was in few drops of blood started flowing, is it normal or am i doing something wrong?

----------


## Swifto

> I tried injecting HCG in the stomach fat and soon as the pin was in few drops of blood started flowing, is it normal or am i doing something wrong?


No, I dont usually get any blood in the barrell. But I guess it can happen.

----------


## Yellow

What do you think about HCG usage for long cycle, swifto?
Because I'm now in the middle of week 9 of my 20 weeks slingshot cycle.
I am using it for week 2-20 (300iu twice per week). 
Does it make any lh desensitization or leydig cells damage? (due to prolonged use of hcg)

I read somewhere in the primordial performance's hcg article that it shouldn't be used for too long. If someone do a cycle for more than 12 weeks i.e 20 weeks, then hcg usage should be stopped for 2 weeks after 10 weeks mark then we can use it again. Does it necessary to do?

Many thanks

----------


## CoolStroybro

I don't understand. If HCG comes in 1500 and 5000 iu amps. Why do I have to mix it with water? Can't I go to a pharmacist and tell him to inject me with 250 iu of this shiit ??

----------


## Swifto

> What do you think about HCG usage for long cycle, swifto?
> Because I'm now in the middle of week 9 of my 20 weeks slingshot cycle.
> I am using it for week 2-20 (300iu twice per week). 
> Does it make any lh desensitization or leydig cells damage? (due to prolonged use of hcg)
> 
> I read somewhere in the primordial performance's hcg article that it shouldn't be used for too long. If someone do a cycle for more than 12 weeks i.e 20 weeks, then hcg usage should be stopped for 2 weeks after 10 weeks mark then we can use it again. Does it necessary to do?
> 
> Many thanks


Yes, thats right.

If you wish to use it for extended peroids take a break every 9-10 weeks of 2-3 weeks.

----------


## CoolStroybro

> I don't understand. If HCG comes in 1500 and 5000 iu amps. Why do I have to mix it with water? Can't I go to a pharmacist and tell him to inject me with 250 iu of this shiit ??


Please can someone help? I don't know how to get back water. Cant I inject 250 iu directly ,let the pharmacist measure it? Or am I wrong?

----------


## mediumpimpin

The HCG will come in 1500-5000iu amps but in a concentrated form. You must add Bac Water to dilute it and make it possible to measure precisely.

----------


## mediumpimpin

Swifto, Is 300mg Primo weekly enough to counter estrogen effects while on a light cycle incl. HCG ? Could more Primo be ran to counter it if not enough or arimidex unquestionably needed.

----------


## Swifto

> Swifto, Is 300mg Primo weekly enough to counter estrogen effects while on a light cycle incl. HCG? Could more Primo be ran to counter it if not enough or arimidex unquestionably needed.


Primo wont do anything for estrogenic sides, do you mean Proviron ?

Primo doesnt aromotase or lower estrogen.

----------


## BGC123

Swifto, just to clarify if i take 250iu 2x/wk should i be taking 20mg tamox ED? and if i take tamox should I still use an AI?/ Amazing post btw!

----------


## fattywarbucks

SWIFTO?

For a standard first cycle of 10-12 wks of test E @ 500/wk

Is 250ius, 2x/wk with .25mg Ldex 2x/wk good?
And what weeks would this be run?
4 to 14, right before pct starts?
Or is 10 weeks too much

Thanks in advance.
 :Smilie:

----------


## Swifto

> Swifto, just to clarify if i take 250iu 2x/wk should i be taking 20mg tamox ED? and if i take tamox should I still use an AI?/ Amazing post btw!


No, just control estrogen with an AI as usual.




> SWIFTO?
> 
> For a standard first cycle of 10-12 wks of test E @ 500/wk
> 
> Is 250ius, 2x/wk with .25mg Ldex 2x/wk good?
> And what weeks would this be run?
> 4 to 14, right before pct starts?
> Or is 10 weeks too much
> 
> Thanks in advance.


For 10-12 weeks from start to finish. Or week 2 till the week proir to PCT or up until PCT. It doesnt matter greatly. 

If you suffer and dont bounce back too well. Ramp the HCG to 250-500ius for 5-7 days leading to PCT to really give your testes a kick. Thats what I did last cycle.

----------


## Swifto

> Hey Swifto,
> 
> I'm 3wks into my 10wk testE cycle. I'm running hcg 500iu/wk. I'm getting signs of gyno. I've been running Ldex @ .25mg Ed, and even recently bumped it up to .50mg Ed. Should I up the dose on the Ldex or add Nolva at this point? Maybe cut back on the hcg? Please help...


Whats your age?

How much Testosterone are you using?

Dont combine Adex/Ldex with Tamox. Thats exactly why I use and have clients use Aromasin now. Those 1st gen AI's are outdated now IMHO.

----------


## fattywarbucks

> No, just control estrogen with an AI as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> For 10-12 weeks from start to finish. Or week 2 till the week proir to PCT or up until PCT. It doesnt matter greatly. 
> 
> If you suffer and dont bounce back too well. Ramp the HCG to 250-500ius for 5-7 days leading to PCT to really give your testes a kick. Thats what I did last cycle.


Thanks. 

Ill run it wk 2 to pct start with stane instead of ldex

----------


## tronics

hey swifto, im finally using hcg for the first time(should have many times), i just got it in but im past half way through my cycle. what would you do in this situation, run it last 3 weeks to pct? at 250iu a day? does that sound right...thanks bro

----------


## Swifto

> 33, 600mg/wk test e (just finished wk3), 40mg dbol (1wk left).


Up your Ldex dose to 0.5mg/ED and see how you get on with that. Perhaps even 1mg/ED for one day, then 0.5mg/ED. Thats a fair bit of estrogen from Test/Dbol /HCG IMHO.

Lower your HCG to 250ius 2x week.

Let me know...

----------


## Swifto

> hey swifto, im finally using hcg for the first time(should have many times), i just got it in but im past half way through my cycle. what would you do in this situation, run it last 3 weeks to pct? at 250iu a day? does that sound right...thanks bro


How long do you have left?

You can do 2 things here:

1. Use a large inital dose now half way through. Something like 500ius 3x week for one week, then 250ius 2x week until 1 week proir to PCT.

2. Wait and use 250-500ius/ED for the final 14 days leading to PCT. Then begin PCT (SERMs).

Always control estrogen too.

----------


## Swifto

Wow.

Almost 10,000 views!

Puts a f*ck off smile on my face, great.

----------


## fig

Hey Swifto...I got two 5000ui amps. Each came with 1ml Solvent. I'm going to use bac water but was wondering if I have to use the solvent as some kind of activator? Not sure why else they'd include 1ml amps, wouldn't be enough for 5000ui's.

----------


## bjpennnn

yes this thread should prob be a sticky

----------


## Big

> yes this thread should prob be a sticky


yeah but if I make it a sticky the n00bs won't read it lol

----------


## bjpennnn

hahaha good point huh. its sad i have sticky notes all over my desktop of all the important threads to spam at newbs. we should make people pass a multiple choice test or something to become members ha.

----------


## Swifto

> Hey Swifto...I got two 5000ui amps. Each came with 1ml Solvent. I'm going to use bac water but was wondering if I have to use the solvent as some kind of activator? Not sure why else they'd include 1ml amps, wouldn't be enough for 5000ui's.


The solvents are similar to bac water. There usually some sort of bac water with BA in or something similar. I use the solvents and 9ml bac water usually.

Good question though.




> yeah but if I make it a sticky the n00bs won't read it lol


Very true.

----------


## fig

> The solvents are similar to bac water. There usually some sort of bac water with BA in or something similar. I use the solvents and 9ml bac water usually.
> 
> Good question though.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true.


Thanks again Swifto!

----------


## PK-V

So how does inhibition differ from full HPTA shutdown is it the duration that inhibition is in effect that will eventually result in HPTA shutdown?



Is the use of hCG recommended for the whole duration of cycle+PCT?

If not, why?

say 1-8 weeks of test

+4 weeks of PCT (nolva)

in total 12 weeks

so 250iu of eod for 12 weeks?

----------


## CoolStroybro

I am trying to buy some HCG online. The brand is called "highly purified HCG by "NOVAREL"

Is it different from this Pregnyl everyone is talking about??

----------


## bjpennnn

cool story bro

----------


## Swifto

> So how does inhibition differ from full HPTA shutdown is it the duration that inhibition is in effect that will eventually result in HPTA shutdown?
> 
> *Complete shutdown is harder to recover from. When inhibited, endo. LH, FSH and T will still be in production when using AAS.*
> 
> Is the use of hCG recommended for the whole duration of cycle+PCT?
> 
> *Not PCT. Only during.*
> 
> If not, why?
> ...


bolds




> I am trying to buy some HCG online. The brand is called "highly purified HCG by "NOVAREL"
> 
> Is it different from this Pregnyl everyone is talking about??


Its a generic HCG. Never used it. Only used Pregnyl. Thats not to say the generic doesnt work though.

----------


## gettingthere

> bolds
> 
> Its a generic HCG. Never used it. Only used Pregnyl. Thats not to say the generic doesnt work though.



Hey swifto just wondering if you could help me out a bit here!! just wondering my friend is running a sust 250 cycle and is planning on running HCG every day at the end for 3 or 4weeks, do you think the guy needs more pct? 

His sust doasges are 500mg a week, 2 injections
He's running Dbol 5mg ED for 4 weeks at start 
Then the hcg

What do you think?

----------


## bjpennnn

ya he needs to run this 
Day 1-18: Clomid @ 100 mgs
Day 1-18: Nolva @ 40 mgs
Day 18-36: Clomid @ 50 mgs
Day 18-36: Nolva @ 20 mgs

running hcg everyday for 3-4 weeks is a bad idea

----------


## gettingthere

> ya he needs to run this 
> Day 1-18: Clomid @ 100 mgs
> Day 1-18: Nolva @ 40 mgs
> Day 18-36: Clomid @ 50 mgs
> Day 18-36: Nolva @ 20 mgs
> 
> running hcg everyday for 3-4 weeks is a bad idea


Is this during the cycle or at the end of the cycle days? 

What sort of dosages would you run hcg at?

----------


## bjpennnn

man its obvious you have done no research. You run the pct at the end of your cycle.

----------


## gettingthere

> man its obvious you have done no research. You run the pct at the end of your cycle.


Done plenty of research before on most things to do with AAS, its just im not used to the pct (yes i know post = after cycle therapy) phase as im not looking at cycling just yet!!! i appreciate your help though dont get me wrong

By the way i think he is running Nolva at 40/20/20/20

----------


## PK-V

> bolds


so if you were to use hcg on cycle it would eliminate the need for it in pct as your already prepped from using it on cycle to maintain endo use and you haven't been shutdown 

so you can go straight into PCT recovery without

so the people that do use hcg for pct are the people who

have been cycling and have not been using hcg on cycle and then use it to a boost to the system as they are shutdown hard from not keeping there balls in the game?

----------


## Swifto

> so if you were to use hcg on cycle it would eliminate the need for it in pct as your already prepped from using it on cycle to maintain endo use and you haven't been shutdown 
> 
> so you can go straight into PCT recovery without
> 
> so the people that do use hcg for pct are the people who
> 
> have been cycling and have not been using hcg on cycle and then use it to a boost to the system as they are shutdown hard from not keeping there balls in the game?


Exactly right.

HCG use is warranted during PCT if it hasnt been used already during the cycle.

----------


## Swifto

> Done plenty of research before on most things to do with AAS, its just im not used to the pct (yes i know post = after cycle therapy) phase as im not looking at cycling just yet!!! i appreciate your help though dont get me wrong
> 
> By the way i think he is running Nolva at 40/20/20/20


Have you actually read the first post of this entire thread. I answer all your questions?

----------


## Ben-Lee

swifto i tried opening a thread however didnt have much response. ive only found this site out not long ago. and now read your information and a bit annoyed i didnt find it earlier im on the 7th week of my omna250 only cycle which im running for 10 weeks. i hav pregnyl 5000iu clomid 100mg tabs and hav 20 of. also nolva im getting shortly is it to late to start running hcg ? should i run it in the last 3 weeks of my cycle ? from what ive been told from mates is to run it after and now after reading your information i wish i ran throughout the whole cycle. so basically all im asking is if i should begin my hcg now for the last 3 weeks of my cycle and at what dosage ? and then week 11 begin clomid cheers. this is my first cycle and have had good gains with minimal side effects want to ensure all is well after gained a solid 6.5kgs.

----------


## RW3333

Swifto,

I am in week 7 of my 10 week test cyp / eq cycle. I have not been using hcg , but got my hands on some a few days ago. How much do you recommend I take?

Thank you

----------


## ArmyMan04

Dude swifto this post just gave me a big chubby... so 3.5 inches... 


..don't hate

----------


## BennyLom

Swifto,
On a first cycle, I want to use a lower dose of hCG (still young and not that big) and so a few questions. 

*1.)* For mixing/diluting the hCG (5.000IU's), is this correct: If mixing 5000IU’s with 10ml water then 1ml = 500IU’s, mixed with 20ml then 1ml = 250Ius, 40ml should thus be 125IU’s, correct?

*2.)* How does 125IU's twice a week sound (8 week cycle)?

*3.)* Since I cannot find bact water I plan to use "water for irrigation" instead which is not as sterile. How long do you reckon this will last in a cooler once mixed?

----------


## ArmyMan04

> Swifto,
> 
> *3.)* Since I cannot find bact water I plan to use "water for irrigation" instead which is not as sterile. How long do you reckon this will last in a cooler once mixed?


You can get bac water at AR-r (banner above) and vials, etc.

----------


## MercuryEvo

what do I mix the HCG in before drawing and injecting? the 50ml sterile viles from ar-r ??? Can I leave it in that vile and put it in the fridge? It comes in a glass vile so it's not resealable and I'm very worried about sterility

----------


## panntastic

is it a muti use vial? (like a aas 10ml vial)

----------


## BJJ

> *So how important is HCG?*
> 
> When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.
> 
> Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction *in the signal* to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly. 
> 
> However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction *in the responsiveness to a signal* to produce testosterone.
> *
> The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont.* As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.
> ...


The bold seems to be my case, as showed with my BW.
I decided to start HCG @ 500 iu eod for two weeks plus, in the first week, clomid @ 50 mg ed and nolva @ 20 mg ed, while in the second week only nolva @ 20 mg ed.

What do you think?

----------


## Swifto

Thats ok. Just kickstart your testes IMHO.

Control estrogen too. You dont want too much ER activity at the HP as it will further reduce endo. LH, FSH.

I'd do:

wk 1-3 HCG 500ius/ED or EOD
wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/EOD
wk 1-3-9 Tamox 20mg/ED, then ramp for 7 days to 40mg/ED, then 20mg/ED for 5-6 weeks
wk 3-9 Clomid 25mg/ED

----------


## BJJ

> Thats ok. Just kickstart your testes IMHO.
> 
> Control estrogen too. You dont want too much ER activity at the HP as it will further reduce endo. LH, FSH.
> 
> I'd do:
> 
> wk 1-3 HCG 500ius/ED or EOD
> wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/EOD
> wk 1-3-9 Tamox 20mg/ED, then ramp for 7 days to 40mg/ED, then 20mg/ED for 5-6 weeks
> wk 3-9 Clomid 25mg/ED


Well I am already at week 4:

wk 1/3-4 clomid 100 mg ed - 50 mg ed
wk 1-4 tamox 40/20/30/30

So I plan to run two more weeks as follows:

wk 5-6 tamoxifen 20/20 ed
wk 5-6 hcg 500 iu eod
wk 5-6 exemestane 12.5 mg eod (I have 25 mg tabs so I cannot make 10 mg)

Today I took another BW and if needed I will go over the 6 weeks.

Thank you for your response.

----------


## MercuryEvo

> what do I mix the HCG in before drawing and injecting? the 50ml sterile viles from ar-r??? Can I leave it in that vile and put it in the fridge? It comes in a glass vile so it's not resealable and I'm very worried about sterility



anyone know?

----------


## tronics

> The solvents are similar to bac water. There usually some sort of bac water with BA in or something similar. I use the solvents and 9ml bac water usually.
> 
> Good question though.



i only have the 1 ml of solvent i dont have any bac water, can i just use this? 

edit* i had 2 amps of the 1 ml solvent so i used 2mls...i had 5000iu of hcg so 250iu is now .1 ml?

----------


## Swifto

> anyone know?


Once its mixed in the sealed sterile vial, its fine to keep in the friedge.

When you inject just swab the top of the vial, draw, inject. 

Done.




> i only have the 1 ml of solvent i dont have any bac water, can i just use this? 
> 
> edit* i had 2 amps of the 1 ml solvent so i used 2mls...i had 5000iu of hcg so 250iu is now .1 ml?


Make it more managable using a sealed sterile vial and some more bac water.

If you had read post #1 to the bottom. You'de know I already explain this.

----------


## stevey_6t9

swift, hypothetically speaking... if i was running test enanthate and during the 2 week waiting period to start PCT, would running hCG be beneficial during those 2 weeks up until pct.

----------


## bowers32

Swift... there is some great info in your posts on this subject.. so thanks.

You did say something I wanted to ask about... you mentioned that 250 twice a week of HCG should be good unless you are older...

At 48 and doing 200 of test cyp... should I look to increasing to three times a week?

If so is it another does of 250 or are you taking the weekly total of 500 and dividing that up into three doses.

Thanks again for your vaulable expertise on this subject.

----------


## Swifto

> swift, hypothetically speaking... if i was running test enanthate and during the 2 week waiting period to start PCT, would running hCG be beneficial during those 2 weeks up until pct.


Thats a good question.

If one doesnt recover very well post cycle, I'll have them ramp their HCG dose slightly during this time, then conduct a full (5-6 week) PCT with SERM(s).




> Swift... there is some great info in your posts on this subject.. so thanks.
> 
> You did say something I wanted to ask about... you mentioned that 250 twice a week of HCG should be good unless you are older...
> 
> At 48 and doing 200 of test cyp... should I look to increasing to three times a week?
> 
> If so is it another does of 250 or are you taking the weekly total of 500 and dividing that up into three doses.
> 
> Thanks again for your vaulable expertise on this subject.


Yes, more may be needed.

I'm only young and seem to bounce back very quickly post cycle and use 250ius 2x week. 

For somone older, I'd go with 250ius 3x week. See how that goes.

----------


## Jaakoppi

How should split 5000iu HCG during test e 500mg/week for 10 weeks, and Methanox 30mg first 4 weeks ed. Maybe 250iu every other day??

----------


## ArmyMan04

> How should split 5000iu HCG during test e 500mg/week for 10 weeks, and Methanox 30mg first 4 weeks ed. Maybe 250iu every other day??


Read his post it tells you...

----------


## Jaakoppi

Ok so let's say 250iu of HCG 2 x week DURING cycle? Then Tamoxifen 40/20/20 after cycle. How about that?

----------


## Swifto

> Ok so let's say 250iu of HCG 2 x week DURING cycle? Then Tamoxifen 40/20/20 after cycle. How about that?


Tamox needs to be 40/20/20/20/20/20.

----------


## Jaakoppi

> Tamox needs to be 40/20/20/20/20/20.


That's a lot! I haven't got so much of Tamox. I can run 40/20/20/10. Hope that's enough.

----------


## Matt

Do you have any thoughts on this mate..

hCG DOSING:

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone . 
When you take AAS LH levels decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, this causes you're testes to shrink
Based on studies with normal men using steroids , 100iu hCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function without causing desensitization/saturation associated with high doses of hCG. 
A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a thrice weekly shot of 250iu hCG, or possibly a twice weekly shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the bodys natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. 

The above protocol is by Eric Portaz.

Another protocol is the blast method, this can be used if for some reason you haven't ran hCG on cycle.
This is often used towards the end of a cycle and/or the run up to PCT.
Much higher doses are used, anywhere from 1000iu-5000iu.
An example would be 2500iu - 5000iu shot 2 x wkly for 4wks.

I think it's worth pointing out that in clinical studies it was shown that it took a single 10000iu shot to desensitize the leydig cells for 96hrs.


From my latest research i am now using and advocating the protocol below.
Here is the science behind this protocol:
An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

So, it's better to use around 1000iu E5-7D.

----------


## BJJ

> Do you have any thoughts on this mate..
> 
> hCG DOSING:
> 
> Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone . 
> When you take AAS LH levels decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, this causes you're testes to shrink
> Based on studies with normal men using steroids , 100iu hCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function without causing desensitization/saturation associated with high doses of hCG. 
> A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a thrice weekly shot of 250iu hCG, or possibly a twice weekly shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the bodys natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. 
> 
> ...


Interesting, thanks for posting.
Curious to see swifto's answer.

In regard of HCG, do you know its half life?
And is there any half life difference if injected via IM or sub-q?

----------


## Swifto

Larger inital doses may needed to kickstart the testes if testicular atrophy has set in. Then down to normal 250-1000ius shots.

Other than that the article is good.

----------


## PK-V

Got a packet of 5 x 1500iu amps of hCG 

so if I use the 1500iu amp crack it open and add the solvent without directly pouring it on the powder. next swirl for a little bit then draw in the syringe and place in a sterile vial

I worked it out as a 1500iu amp with 3ml of bac water to receive a hCG dose of 250iu per .5ml injection is this correct 

I used this
https://www.steroidscouts.com/hcgcalc.html




how many days will hCG last when reconstructed?

do I keep them in the fridge once reconstructed?

how long does it last unconstructed, is it until the best before date? 

should I keep the unconstructed stuff in the freezer? 

big thanks

----------


## SoFloTC

The vial my HCG came in is super tiny, i doubt 10ml of bac water will even come close to fitting.... what should i do? also what syringe do i use to take out 10ml bac water? my syringes are only 3ml unless i just keep refilling it lol

----------


## Swifto

> Got a packet of 5 x 1500iu amps of hCG 
> 
> so if I use the 1500iu amp crack it open and add the solvent without directly pouring it on the powder. next swirl for a little bit then draw in the syringe and place in a sterile vial
> 
> I worked it out as a 1500iu amp with 3ml of bac water to receive a hCG dose of 250iu per .5ml injection is this correct 
> 
> I used this
> https://www.steroidscouts.com/hcgcalc.html
> 
> ...


All this is in this thread somewhere mate.

45 days once mixed. Keep it refridgerated.

The unmixed powder can be kept at room temp in a dry, dark place.




> The vial my HCG came in is super tiny, i doubt 10ml of bac water will even come close to fitting.... what should i do? also what syringe do i use to take out 10ml bac water? my syringes are only 3ml unless i just keep refilling it lol


Get more syrniges and barrells. AR-R sells all you need.

----------


## SoFloTC

I started my cycle today, 2nd cycle, 

1-10 500mg Test E 2 shots weekly
Got Tamox for my PCT

I only have 5000iu's of HCG .. i want to take 250x2 shots a week.. this will only last me though up to 45 days (6 weeks) before it starts going bad...? so when should i start the HCG? with my first test shot or should i wait and start week 4 so it goes through week 10 at my last shot so then my testes are for sure running by my pct time?

----------


## BJJ

Hey Swifto, have you ever thought about running a PCT with toremifene, tamoxifen and clomiphene all together?

----------


## Swifto

> Hey Swifto, have you ever thought about running a PCT with toremifene, tamoxifen and clomiphene all together?


That would be overboard mate.

The reason we want to use a SERM is because they exert ER antagonism at the hypothalamus. All SERMs do that, whilst some of their effects differ at the pituitary.

Tamoxifen and I suspect Toremifene seem to sensitise the pituitary to GnRH from the HP. Its been proven in Tamox and I have seen one paper on Tore increasing sensitivity at the PT in females (I'm not talking about estrogen primiing, that doesnt exist in males)

Stay with me...

Some Endo's suggest one SERM (Tamox) is sufficient to cause this ER antagonism and upregulation (if you will) of the PT. 

I prefer to use the combination of Tore/Tamox. You want to use the least possible dose and amount of compounds and get the MOST results. Remember SERMs (especially 1st Gen) arnt particularly good for us either.

3 SERMs is too much, 2 SERMs works very well and I suspect so would Tamoxifen alone. Although I have recovered in weeks with Tore/Tamox better than either alone.

----------


## Swifto

> I started my cycle today, 2nd cycle, 
> 
> 1-10 500mg Test E 2 shots weekly
> Got Tamox for my PCT
> 
> I only have 5000iu's of HCG.. i want to take 250x2 shots a week.. this will only last me though up to 45 days (6 weeks) before it starts going bad...? so when should i start the HCG? with my first test shot or should i wait and start week 4 so it goes through week 10 at my last shot so then my testes are for sure running by my pct time?


Start week 4.

----------


## meat&2veg

SWIFTO...

Hey great read, I have followed a couple of your posts...You sound like you know your stuff... So I am wanting your advice for my next corse please bro???

I am going to run:

Weeks 1 - 10 - 400mg Deca .
Weeks 1 - 12 - 500mg Sus250.

(I will be injecting the above as: 1ml Sus250 with 2ml Deca every Monday & Thursday).

The question is after reading your stuff and a load of other blogs, am I going to be right to take the following:

Weeks 1 - 12 - .25 EOD of Arimidex .
Weeks 4 - 14 - 250 iu's of HCG (3 times a week).

WAIT 18 DAYS FROM LAST SUS JAB, THEN:

1st Week - Take 100mg Clomid + 40mg Nolva.
2nd Week - Take 50mg Clomid + 40mg Nolva.
3rd Week - Take 25mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva.
4th week - Take 25mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva.

Would really appreciate your help & anyone else's.

Many thanks.

----------


## BJJ

> That would be overboard mate.
> 
> The reason we want to use a SERM is because they exert ER antagonism at the hypothalamus. All SERMs do that, whilst some of their effects differ at the pituitary.
> 
> Tamoxifen and I suspect Toremifene seem to sensitise the pituitary to GnRH from the HP. Its been proven in Tamox and I have seen one paper on Tore increasing sensitivity at the PT in females (I'm not talking about estrogen primiing, that doesnt exist in males)
> 
> Stay with me...
> 
> Some Endo's suggest one SERM (Tamox) is sufficient to cause this ER antagonism and upregulation (if you will) of the PT. 
> ...


Thank you

----------


## Swifto

> SWIFTO...
> 
> Hey great read, I have followed a couple of your posts...You sound like you know your stuff... So I am wanting your advice for my next corse please bro???
> 
> I am going to run:
> 
> Weeks 1 - 10 - 400mg Deca .
> Weeks 1 - 12 - 500mg Sus250.
> 
> ...


That sounds fine. I would start the HCG at week 1 or 3 the latest, I'd prefer week 1.

Dont need a frontload of both Clomid and Tamox. Go with Tamox 40mg/ED for the first 5-7 days. Clomid at 50mg/ED the same, then 25mg/ED. PCT should last 5-6 weeks, not 4.

----------


## meat&2veg

> That sounds fine. I would start the HCG at week 1 or 3 the latest, I'd prefer week 1.
> 
> Dont need a frontload of both Clomid and Tamox. Go with Tamox 40mg/ED for the first 5-7 days. Clomid at 50mg/ED the same, then 25mg/ED. PCT should last 5-6 weeks, not 4.


Cheers Swifto...

So just to be clear about the PCT. I do start it 18 days after my last jab of Sus?
But just start how and with what???
i.e
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
And so on till week 6.

If you can give me the break down of how much of what I should take over the 6 week period please bud?

Also do you think my stack is good? Sus 250 & Deca ...I have had mixed reports about Deca so not sure but I dont really want to take any oral's as its bad for my liver...Plus I dont wanna blow up like a balloon, just wanna get strong and cut with most gains kept.
I know my diet is key to keeping gains...Just wanted to know if you think anything else would stack nice with Sus 250?

Many thanks again dude.

----------


## Ronaldo_911

Should I use a specific type of water? or a regular water from the tap??

----------


## V8Assassin

My understanding is that HCG , once reconstituted, should be stored in the fridge and will only last around 6 weeks. My clinic sent me a bottle with 11,000ius, even if running 250ius 3 times/week over the six weeks, that's only 4500iu's. What are my storage options or is the rest just going to go bad and not be able to be used on a later cycle.

----------


## Swifto

bump

----------


## creactiveprotein

swifto - if one were running test e 500mg for 9 weeks when is the best time to start hcg ? throughout the thread you've said week 4 and other times you said week 1 if at all possible, whats the accurate answer here?

----------


## flexandex

Wow brilliant thread.

Sooo much infomation, would just like to throw out there what i have, and if anythings wrong mabey you could fix it?

week 1-10 test-e 600mg PW
week 1-4 dbol 40mg ED

week 1-10 HCG 250IU 2x PW
week 1-10 arimidex 0.25 EOD (Would this be too much?)

(pheedno PCT)
week 12-16 arimidex 0.25 ED
week 12-16 clomid 100mg ED
week 12-16 nolva 20mg ED

I finish my cycle and wait 14 days after the last test injection to start pct, i was wondering do i carry HCG through weeks 10-12?

edit: HCG-PREGNYL is what we want? is there any guides on how to mix it etc?

----------


## Swifto

> swifto - if one were running test e 500mg for 9 weeks when is the best time to start hcg? throughout the thread you've said week 4 and other times you said week 1 if at all possible, whats the accurate answer here?


Its best to start at week 1. But you could start at a later date, but use a higher initial dose. 




> Wow brilliant thread.
> 
> Sooo much infomation, would just like to throw out there what i have, and if anythings wrong mabey you could fix it?
> 
> week 1-10 test-e 600mg PW
> week 1-4 dbol 40mg ED
> 
> week 1-10 HCG 250IU 2x PW
> week 1-10 arimidex 0.25 EOD (Would this be too much?)
> ...


Stop the HCG before PCT.

No need for Arimidex or any AI's during PCT. Estrogen is already low. 

Wait 10-11 days, not 14 days.

Mixing instructions are on page 1, post #1.

----------


## flexandex

awesome thanks swifto.

so i keep the hcg going in the period between my last jab and PCT?

about the arimidex thing, that is just what i got from pheedno's PCT, its linked from the beginner cycle sticky as the PCT i should use

----------


## mr_miklos

could you take a look at this cycle. is it good?

Cycle:

V 1-14 : Boldenone 250mg/monday 250mg/thursday
V 1-15 : testo e 250mg/monday 250mg/thursday

PCT:

Week 18-21 Clomid 100/50/50/50
Week 18-21 Nolvadex 40/20/20/20

would it be enough if i use hcg at 250ius 2 times weekly. starting at week 1 and stop at week 16? and should i use some AI troughout the cycle? if so what is to recommend and at what dose?

Stats:

Age : 28
Height : 5.9
Weight : 199
Bench : 280
Deadlift : 400
squats : 340

----------


## Ca$tro

Swifto,
I am looking to start my cycle of test enanthate and dbol , followed by pct on clomid and nolva... My question to you is that if i am to take test enanthate for 12 weeks when should i introduce the hcg and what dosages would you recommend.

My HCG pack comes with 3 bottles full of injectable liquid and 3 bottles full of powder made by Angelini Farmaceutica, s.a. - HCG-lepori 2500 for gonadotrofina via intramuscular. I think the the bottles are 2500iu, will confirm with my supplier/adviser. I have two packs, six bottles...

Any advice appreciated mate trying to make sure my testicles remain functional.

Thankyou very much for your time bro

----------


## Swifto

> could you take a look at this cycle. is it good?
> 
> Cycle:
> 
> V 1-14 : Boldenone 250mg/monday 250mg/thursday
> V 1-15 : testo e 250mg/monday 250mg/thursday
> 
> PCT:
> 
> ...


Keep the SERMs going for 6 weeks, not 4.

I prefer Tore/Tamox PCT, but Clomid will suffice.

Aromasin 10mg/ED or EOD.




> Swifto,
> I am looking to start my cycle of test enanthate and dbol , followed by pct on clomid and nolva... My question to you is that if i am to take test enanthate for 12 weeks when should i introduce the hcg and what dosages would you recommend.
> 
> My HCG pack comes with 3 bottles full of injectable liquid and 3 bottles full of powder made by Angelini Farmaceutica, s.a. - HCG-lepori 2500 for gonadotrofina via intramuscular. I think the the bottles are 2500iu, will confirm with my supplier/adviser. I have two packs, six bottles...
> 
> Any advice appreciated mate trying to make sure my testicles remain functional.
> 
> Thankyou very much for your time bro


Doses are in post #1.

----------


## steroidsarebad

Great thread Swifto. Everything I have seen has always said that hcg was important to prevent testicular atrophy but never explained why testicular atrophy was bad besides having baby nuts, this thread did.

Also I read another post where you were talking about Naltrexone, do you have any more information about this or is Hcg superior to it?

----------


## bjpennnn

bump just had another read lots of good info here.

----------


## BOBfromfightclub

So as long as the doseing is low one could take it for the entire cycle straight? 
I thought I remembered reading that it shouldn't be used for longer then 3 weeks at a time...
Just clarifying

----------


## 40plusnewbie

I'm 43 and running my first cycle that includes test (or any other nut shrinker) and sure am glad I'm running HCG throughout the run of test. I've had these nuts for 43 years, never turned them into raisin's before so sure as heck don't want to do that now if it can be avoided.

----------


## Swifto

> I comment on a separate thread about rhLH. On the thread, I believe I include the following study between hCG and rhLH (Cailleux-Bounacer et al.). One of the primary differences is the half-life, which makes use of rhLH unwieldy and problematic. Interestingly, the abstract following (Handelsman et al.), concludes, "Effective rhLH doping, which relies on a sustained increases in endogenous T, would require much higher and more frequent daily rhLH doses." Add the cost to this and hCG is the hands down choice. 
> 
> 
> Cailleux-Bounacer A, Reznik Y, Cauliez B, Menard JF, Duparc C, Kuhn JM. *Evaluation of endocrine testing of Leydig cell function using extractive and recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin and different doses of recombinant human LH in normal men.* Eur J Endocrinol 2008;159(2):171-8. Evaluation of endocrine testing of Leydig cell function using extractive and recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin and different doses of recombinant human LH in normal men -- Cailleux-Bounacer et al. 159 (2): 171 -- European Journal of Endocrinol 
> 
> BACKGROUND: The functional testing of endocrine testis uses extractive human chorionic gonadotropin (ehCG). Recombinant human hCG (rhCG), avoiding any contamination, should replace ehCG. Moreover, a functional evaluation with recombinant human LH (rhLH) would be closer to physiology than a pharmacological testing with hCG. 
> 
> METHODS: The study was conducted in normal men. We first evaluated the dose-effect of ehCG on plasma testosterone and estradiol levels, before and after injection of either hCG or vehicle. Secondly, the responses to the optimal dose of ehCG were compared with those of rhCG. Thirdly, we investigated the dose-effect of rhLH, on steroid hormone secretion. LH, testosterone, and estradiol plasma levels were measured after the injection of either rhLH or placebo. 
> 
> ...



HCG is still king, even against newer more advanced compounds being developed.

----------


## 40plusnewbie

Swifto,

How do you run your torem/tomax in pct? 

I have both in powder form and will be capping them up myself for my pct of a:

Test cyp 500/week for 10 1/2 weeks
Var 80-100mg/day for 9 weeks
Tren 400mg week last 8 weeks
I'm also running ghrp-2 and cjc w/o DAC 100mcg 3x/day throughout cycle and pct and beyond.
I"m also running HCG ~ 300iu 2x/week throughout cycle. Is it better to stop the HCG after the last test cyp shot or just prior to pct?

----------


## Swifto

Have a look at my PCT Q&A in that section. Its on page 1.

----------


## jimmy79

Swifto, what is your take on HCG when you're getting TRT ? (yes, no, same dose?)

----------


## lew

Starting my first cycle soon so just need to make sure i have this right

Week 1-10: Test E 400mg
Plus...Maybe GH 5iu's for 20 weeks 

1. So is HCG 250iu x2 per week 
2. although my last test E shot will be week 10 do i run HCG until week 11?
3. Then stop HCG at end of week 11 and run PCT middle of week 11 (10 days after last Test E shot)

Advise would be appreciated

Thanks

Lew

----------


## Swifto

> Swifto, what is your take on HCG when you're getting TRT ? (yes, no, same dose?)


It only needed for cosmetic purposes or fartility needs.

Protocol's vary from all the way through for around 8-10 weeks, then 3-4 weeks off, repeat.

Or 250-500ius for 14 days now and again during the course of the HRT program. 

Personally, I'd go with the first protocol, but I am not on HRT.




> Starting my first cycle soon so just need to make sure i have this right
> 
> Week 1-10: Test E 400mg
> Plus...Maybe GH 5iu's for 20 weeks 
> 
> 1. So is HCG 250iu x2 per week 
> 2. although my last test E shot will be week 10 do i run HCG until week 11?
> 3. Then stop HCG at end of week 11 and run PCT middle of week 11 (10 days after last Test E shot)
> 
> ...


Yes.

Do one more shot of HCG as your waiting for the Enanthate ester to clear.

----------


## kfish326

Swifto,

How do you feel about running HCG during TRT? I am currently on 250mg testoviron per week and was thinking of adding 250iu 2xwk and armidex .25 everyday. would you have to cycle the HCG or could i run it in conjuction with the testosterone continuosly?

----------


## Swifto

> Swifto,
> 
> How do you feel about running HCG during TRT? I am currently on 250mg testoviron per week and was thinking of adding 250iu 2xwk and armidex .25 everyday. would you have to cycle the HCG or could i run it in conjuction with the testosterone continuosly?


F*ck me.

Read the post above yours...

----------


## kfish326

HA.. Sorry about that.. i read about the 1st 9 pages of this thread and couldn't go on anymore and figured i would just ask.. figures it would be the last one..thanks for the info.

----------


## MrO_55

If i wanted to run a test/deca /dbol bulking cycle with fair doses.

how exactly would i be able to incorperate HCG into it? 

During? or only in my PCT?

----------


## baseline_9

> If i wanted to run a test/deca /dbol bulking cycle with fair doses.
> 
> how exactly would i be able to incorperate HCG into it? 
> 
> During? or only in my PCT?



Click the 'got a PCT question' link in swiftos signature, page 1 will answer all ur questions


Another BUMP, this info is a must for all, is this not a sticky?

----------


## Far from massive

Dumb question but I have been thinking of getting some HCG from on online pharm where you are required to submit a payment then if you don't have a script fill out an online questionair for perusal by thier inhouse doctor then assuming all is well the HCG is supposed to ship within a couple of weeks. This seems like it may be a legit source ( they sure have a pretty legit looking website and I recognize the names of some of the "pharma" companies) but I still am not at all convinced it is real.

So my question is if I were to recieve some HCG and run it off cycle for a week or so would the changes in fullness of the testicals etc. allow me to judge whether I had a legit product?

I have only been here a little over a month so I can't ask for source checks yet, so if this option sounds doable it would allow me to get some before my next cycle in December. If this is the stupidest idea you ever heard, just let me know and I will just have to wait I guess.

----------


## Swifto

> Dumb question but I have been thinking of getting some HCG from on online pharm where you are required to submit a payment then if you don't have a script fill out an online questionair for perusal by thier inhouse doctor then assuming all is well the HCG is supposed to ship within a couple of weeks. This seems like it may be a legit source ( they sure have a pretty legit looking website and I recognize the names of some of the "pharma" companies) but I still am not at all convinced it is real.
> 
> So my question is if I were to recieve some HCG and run it off cycle for a week or so would the changes in fullness of the testicals etc. allow me to judge whether I had a legit product?
> 
> I have only been here a little over a month so I can't ask for source checks yet, so if this option sounds doable it would allow me to get some before my next cycle in December. If this is the stupidest idea you ever heard, just let me know and I will just have to wait I guess.


IMO, yes.

----------


## BOBfromfightclub

Could HCG be "preloaded" for say a week before your cycle?

example 3 shots of HCG in the week before your first injection, then wait tell week 4 to start gain?

----------


## Swifto

> Could HCG be "preloaded" for say a week before your cycle?
> 
> example 3 shots of HCG in the week before your first injection, then wait tell week 4 to start gain?


No point. It takes 2-3 weeks for endogenous LH and FSH to hit hypogondal levels on exogenous testosterone or other androgens that cause HPTA shutdown.

----------


## MBMETC

bump

----------


## lew

Swifto

Do you still recommend hcg at 250ius twice a week if I will be running 200 mg or 300mg of test e per week?

Or should I just run 1 shot of hcg at 250ius a week? Just wondered if the dosage of test determines amount of hcg used?

Thanks

Lew

----------


## Relax007

I've read through this thread and can't seem to get a clear answer on how many weeks HCG can be run for or when it should end? If I start HCG at week 2, do I run it all the way until week 14, when I start PCT or when do I end it? Also, I have seen some people say never run HCG over 4 weeks. What is the recommendation here? 

Dbol 40ed/1-4 weeks
Test e 250x2/1-12 weeks
Deca 200x2/week 1-10 weeks
Winny 50mg/6-12 weeks
HCG 250iux2/8-11 or 2-11 week 
Adex or Aromasin eod or e3d

PCT: 
Clomid 100/50/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20

----------


## kleaver

*****

----------


## BigDawg44

Great post I'm currently I'n week 9 out 20 of my cycle running 150 eod of prop and was wondering if I should include it I'n my cycle since I'm thinking about including tren on week 10 at 75 Eod

----------


## Swifto

bump....

----------


## baseline_9

BUMPing this one for all the noobs...

And why is this not a sticky, Marcus?

----------


## Yellow

Hi Swifto,

High dosages of androgens can cause the body to stop or reduce a process called spermatogenesis.
BTW if we are using HCG while on cycle, do we still produce sperm? or Is the spermatogenesis process stopped or reduced while on cycle regardless using HCG or not? 

Thanks, swifto...

----------


## SMcB

After reading about HCG , it seems that the proper use of this stuff while on cycle could theoretically lead to more permanent gains after a cycle, since HCG leads to quicker HPTA recovery. Anyone have experience with cycles with and without HCG use? What were the results?

----------


## slimshady01

I'm in my second week of test E at only 360mg a weeks. I was going to start at the beginning of week 3 to week 12 then pct. Also 250ui 2x a week same days I do the test. Does this sound ok or should I start now?

----------


## Swifto

> Hi Swifto,
> 
> High dosages of androgens can cause the body to stop or reduce a process called spermatogenesis.
> BTW if we are using HCG while on cycle, do we still produce sperm? or Is the spermatogenesis process stopped or reduced while on cycle regardless using HCG or not? 
> 
> Spermatogenesis will slow when using androgens dramatically, but will resume (mostly) post AAS cessation. HCG will help spermatogenesis during this peroid and so will HMG. Both will provide the testes to remain functioning. 
> Thanks, swifto...





> After reading about HCG, it seems that the proper use of this stuff while on cycle could theoretically lead to more permanent gains after a cycle, since HCG leads to quicker HPTA recovery. Anyone have experience with cycles with and without HCG use? What were the results?


I recover far quicker post cycle when using HCG at some point. Its a real rough ride without it. 




> I'm in my second week of test E at only 360mg a weeks. I was going to start at the beginning of week 3 to week 12 then pct. Also 250ui 2x a week same days I do the test. Does this sound ok or should I start now?


If you have enough, start week 1. If not start week 2-3.

----------


## slimshady01

Thanks for the reply. I got 10k ui so I think I'm
Good to start now.

----------


## Yellow

> Originally Posted by Yellow
> 
> 
> Hi Swifto,
> 
> High dosages of androgens can cause the body to stop or reduce a process called spermatogenesis.
> BTW if we are using HCG while on cycle, do we still produce sperm? or Is the spermatogenesis process stopped or reduced while on cycle regardless using HCG or not? 
> 
> Thanks, swifto...
> ...


Hi Swifto, 

So do I.
I felt no crash when post-cycle despite of having done 8 months cycle. I do know I recover far quicker post cycle when using HCG during cycle. 
When I didn't use HCG on cycle, even doing 10weeks cycle I felt crappy post-cycle.

The point is about spermatogenesis.
If we use HCG while on cycle, are we still producing sperm? 
Is the spermatogenesis process stopped or reduced while on cycle even using HCG?
*Judging by theory that only FSH trigger sperm production. 

Many thanks, swifto...

----------


## Swifto

> Hi Swifto, 
> 
> So do I.
> I felt no crash when post-cycle despite of having done 8 months cycle. I do know I recover far quicker post cycle when using HCG during cycle. 
> When I didn't use HCG on cycle, even doing 10weeks cycle I felt crappy post-cycle.
> 
> The point is about spermatogenesis.
> If we use HCG while on cycle, are we still producing sperm? 
> Is the spermatogenesis process stopped or reduced while on cycle even using HCG?
> ...


Spermatogenesis will be improved on cycle when using HCG. HCG can increase spermatogenesis because it mimics LH, which is party responsible for it. However, FSH primary use is for spermatogenesis so something like HMG will aid in anything to do with sperm count, motility, mobility, etc...

In men given Test Enan 200mg/wk + HCG (5000ius 3x week), in this study, after 3 months some of the subjects sperm count returned, ".._.toward normal (46±16 million/ml, P < 0.001 compared with T alone). In two subjects, sperm counts during hCG plus T returned into the individual's control range. Sperm motility and morphology were consistently normal in all men during hCG plus T"._

So although FSH is responsible for much of testicular function, its not all of it.

To answer your question(s).

Yes, sperm count was returned to "normal ranges" in some of the subjects in that study. So I'd be inclined to postulate that *including HCG* will certainly increase sperm count when on cycle.

No, spermatogenesis is not stopped on cycle when using AAS + HCG, but may well be not using HCG. Infact, it usually is stopped. That above study also indicates that using TE at 200mg/wk for 3 months, reduced sperm count and fucntion so much, they were clasified as "azoospermia or severe oligospermia".

Your welcome...

----------


## Yellow

> Spermatogenesis will be improved on cycle when using HCG . HCG can increase spermatogenesis because it mimics LH, which is party responsible for it. However, FSH primary use is for spermatogenesis so something like HMG will aid in anything to do with sperm count, motility, mobility, etc...
> 
> In men given Test Enan 200mg/wk + HCG (5000ius 3x week), in this study, after 3 months some of the subjects sperm count returned, ".._.toward normal (46±16 million/ml, P < 0.001 compared with T alone). In two subjects, sperm counts during hCG plus T returned into the individual's control range. Sperm motility and morphology were consistently normal in all men during hCG plus T"._
> 
> So although FSH is responsible for much of testicular function, its not all of it.
> 
> To answer your question(s).
> 
> Yes, sperm count was returned to "normal ranges" in some of the subjects in that study. So I'd be inclined to postulate that *including HCG* will certainly increase sperm count when on cycle.
> ...


Thanks for the nice answers & explanations, swifto...
I greatly appreciate it...

BTW in the study you showed to me, men are given HCG 5000IU 3x per week with Test Enanthate 200mg per week (which is high dose of HCG). 
Usually I use only small dose of HCG (250IU-300IU 2x per week) during steroid cycle. What about it?
Is that dose enough to maintain sperm production during cycle?

Many Thanks for your time, swifto...

----------


## BJJ

Hey Swifto, do you think HCG should/could be run also during a bridge time?

Like for example:

BULK 1
8 weeks test p 700 mg ew (100 mg ed)
8 weeks hcg 500 iu ew (250 iu e3.5d)
8 weeks exemestane 25 mg ew (12.5 mg e3.5d)

BRIDGE
4 weeks test c 300 mg ew
4 weeks rhgh 28 iu ew (4 iu ed)
4 weeks t4 700 mcg ew (100 mcg ed)
HCG?

BULK 2
6 weeks test p 1050 mg ew (150 mg ed)
6 weeks hcg 500 iu ew (250 iu e3.5d)
6 weeks exemestane 25 mg ew (12.5 mg e3.5d)

Thank you

----------


## pwnflow

Hey swifto what's your opinion on HMG compared to HCG ?

----------


## Swifto

> Thanks for the nice answers & explanations, swifto...
> I greatly appreciate it...
> 
> BTW in the study you showed to me, men are given HCG 5000IU 3x per week with Test Enanthate 200mg per week (which is high dose of HCG). 
> Usually I use only small dose of HCG (250IU-300IU 2x per week) during steroid cycle. What about it?
> Is that dose enough to maintain sperm production during cycle?
> 
> I wouldnt worry about that. HCG dosed far lower has been shown to maintain testicular function without the possible occurrence of leydig cell desensitisation.
> 
> Many Thanks for your time, swifto...





> Hey Swifto, do you think HCG should/could be run also during a bridge time?
> 
> Like for example:
> 
> BULK 1
> 8 weeks test p 700 mg ew (100 mg ed)
> 8 weeks hcg 500 iu ew (250 iu e3.5d)
> 8 weeks exemestane 25 mg ew (12.5 mg e3.5d)
> 
> ...


I think thats a decent idea as E2 and progesterone can build over time with HCG's use. Coming back to using it during your "bulk 2" after 4 weeks of cessation you may need a slightly larger initial dose. 

I'd go with 1500ius/wk for the first week, then back down to what you were using before.




> Hey swifto what's your opinion on HMG compared to HCG?


Thats a good question and I dont know an awful low about it. 

From my knowledge it just mimcs FSH, not LH, which is primarily used for testosterone production/synthesis.

HMG would be better used at increasing spermatagenesis.

----------


## BJJ

I will follow your advice, grazie.

----------


## BikesNGuns

Hey Swifto this may have been asked somewhere else in this lengthy post so I apologize if it has. Here is my question I am on week 8 of my first ...I started with Dbol at 40mg daily for the first four weeks while also running Test Enth at 500mg and will be stopping the Enth at week 12. I had planned on PCT with Aromasin , Nolvadex , and HCG (a post I had found by Pinnacle). 

Wk Nolva HCG Aroma Vit. E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day 
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day 

If I should run HCG during cycle as you suggest how should I run it? I have 15,000iu available and can't get any more. Also a question related to that is the gear I have is powdered form in very smalls vials 5000iu each. How is this mixed with bacteriostatic water?...and secondly is this also intramuscular using the same pins for my enth?...Lastly, will Nolvadex, and Aromasin be okay together for PCT? I have 50ml at 20mg/ml of Nolva and 60ml at 25mg/ml of Aromasin. Sorry for being long winded I just feel after reading this thread that I need to change up my thoughts on H.C.G. and what I had planned on for my P.C.T. which sucks because I got the gear to run exactly what Pinnacle had described in his sticky post. Thanks for your help.

----------


## layeazy

Hey swifto great thread

if u were to run a cycle of 12 weeks
dianabol 20mg a day - 4 weeks
deca 400mg 10 weeks
Test E 600mg 12 weeks

When would u start the HCG process and what would be an accurate amount to use and ED or EOD?

----------


## mg0922

Not sure if I missed a post. I've read this whole thread and I have to say wow. Thank you so much for taking your time to present such an important aspect of a cycle. I have learned so much just reading all the questions and looking at your answers. I am now pretty educated when it comes time to use hcg . Thx again

One question I do have if it wasn't already asked is...what exactly is that water called you mix it with and where can I find That? Also what are the proper mixing amounts water>hcg.. equal amounts?

Thx

----------


## mg0922

Also if i do a 10 Wk cycle how much of hcg should I get?

Thx

----------


## MAC MAN

Swifto- why are you pushing for 6 weeks is SERMs and not the 4 that many are used to? If using Nolva is 40/40/20/20 not good or has it to do with length of cycle?

----------


## Yellow

BTW in the study you showed to me, men are given HCG 5000 IU 3x per week with Test Enanthate 200mg per week (5000IU 3x per weeks is a such high dose of HCG). 
Usually I only use small dose of HCG (250 IU-300 IU 2x per week) during steroid cycle. What about it?
Is that dose enough to maintain sperm production during cycle?

Many Thanks for your time, swifto...

----------


## Swifto

> Hey Swifto this may have been asked somewhere else in this lengthy post so I apologize if it has. Here is my question I am on week 8 of my first ...I started with Dbol at 40mg daily for the first four weeks while also running Test Enth at 500mg and will be stopping the Enth at week 12. I had planned on PCT with Aromasin , Nolvadex , and HCG (a post I had found by Pinnacle). 
> 
> Wk Nolva HCG Aroma Vit. E
> 1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
> 2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
> 3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
> 4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day 
> 5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
> 6 20mgs/day 
> ...


Bolds.

Tamox should suffice for PCT. Tamox 20mg/ED for 6 weeks, 40mg/ED first 7 days.

Aromasin 10mg/EOD on cycle, not PCT.




> Hey swifto great thread
> 
> if u were to run a cycle of 12 weeks
> dianabol 20mg a day - 4 weeks
> deca 400mg 10 weeks
> Test E 600mg 12 weeks
> 
> When would u start the HCG process and what would be an accurate amount to use and ED or EOD?


Week 1. 250ius 2x week, or 3x week, depending on age. If over 30 3x, or struggle to get back post cycle.




> Not sure if I missed a post. I've read this whole thread and I have to say wow. Thank you so much for taking your time to present such an important aspect of a cycle. I have learned so much just reading all the questions and looking at your answers. I am now pretty educated when it comes time to use hcg. Thx again
> 
> One question I do have if it wasn't already asked is...what exactly is that water called you mix it with and where can I find That? Also what are the proper mixing amounts water>hcg.. equal amounts?
> 
> Bac water.
> 
> 
> Thx





> Also if i do a 10 Wk cycle how much of hcg should I get?
> 
> Thx


5,000-10,000ius. 




> Swifto- why are you pushing for 6 weeks is SERMs and not the 4 that many are used to? If using Nolva is 40/40/20/20 not good or has it to do with length of cycle?


Because the latest research tested SERMs on hypogondal males over 6 weeks. 




> BTW in the study you showed to me, men are given HCG 5000 IU 3x per week with Test Enanthate 200mg per week (5000IU 3x per weeks is a such high dose of HCG). 
> Usually I only use small dose of HCG (250 IU-300 IU 2x per week) during steroid cycle. What about it?
> Is that dose enough to maintain sperm production during cycle?
> 
> Many Thanks for your time, swifto...


As I said before, yes IMHO.

----------


## TwoGuns

Long story short. Im in week 15 of my cycle. 525mg/week of test prop. Want to start coming off but was confused as how to best use the hcg i have. Form what i understand start with 500ius 4x per week for first week then 250ius 2x per week? but for how long and should i keep using the hcg and how long shoudl i keep running test?

----------


## Yellow

> Bolds.
> 
> Tamox should suffice for PCT. Tamox 20mg/ED for 6 weeks, 40mg/ED first 7 days.
> 
> Aromasin 10mg/EOD on cycle, not PCT.
> 
> 
> 
> Week 1. 250ius 2x week, or 3x week, depending on age. If over 30 3x, or struggle to get back post cycle.
> ...


Many thanks for clearing that up, swifto...

----------


## layeazy

thanks swifto for the fast response mate i will follow it to a tee and see how my recovery is

----------


## BikesNGuns

Thanks for the info Swifto, its appreciated.

----------


## progressive1

Thanks for the post swifto. Should hcg be run with an anavar -only cycle? If so, what dosing and how long?

----------


## TwoGuns

Bump



> im in week 15 of my cycle. 525mg/week of test prop. Want to start coming off but was confused as how to best use the hcg i have. Form what i understand start with 500ius 4x per week for first week then 250ius 2x per week? But for how long and should i keep using the hcg and how long shoudl i keep running test?

----------


## PK-V

I'm currently in the middle of week 7 of 500mg/wk of testosterone 

I have a load of hCG on hand but I haven't reconstructed any of it yet, I don't feel like my balls have shrunken much if any, should I start using hCG anyway? I plan on running my cycle up until week 14-15.

A local user told me that you don't always get testicular atrophy on cycle?

And to know if you need any hCG check your ejaculation, if it's runny like water you need some LH stimulation and if it's not your ok?

sorry for the details  :Big Grin: 

any truth to these?

----------


## PK-V

woof

----------


## Swifto

Sorry I have been a little late replying...




> Long story short. Im in week 15 of my cycle. 525mg/week of test prop. Want to start coming off but was confused as how to best use the hcg i have. Form what i understand start with 500ius 4x per week for first week then 250ius 2x per week? but for how long and should i keep using the hcg and how long shoudl i keep running test?


The protocol you outlined is fine, perhaps 1-2 1000ius shots after 15 weeks.

The duration of the HCG treatment will then be determined by your cycle length? 15 weeks on is a far whack. When do you plan on doing PCT?




> Many thanks for clearing that up, swifto...


No problem.




> thanks swifto for the fast response mate i will follow it to a tee and see how my recovery is


Keep me updated. 

My pleasure. 




> Thanks for the info Swifto, its appreciated.


No problem.




> Thanks for the post swifto. Should hcg be run with an anavar-only cycle? If so, what dosing and how long?


Not need 99% of the time.




> I'm currently in the middle of week 7 of 500mg/wk of testosterone 
> 
> I have a load of hCG on hand but I haven't reconstructed any of it yet, I don't feel like my balls have shrunken much if any, should I start using hCG anyway? I plan on running my cycle up until week 14-15.
> 
> A local user told me that you don't always get testicular atrophy on cycle?
> 
> And to know if you need any hCG check your ejaculation, if it's runny like water you need some LH stimulation and if it's not your ok?
> 
> sorry for the details 
> ...


Testicular size is not a sign of function.

Start on 500-750ius 4x in the first week, then down to 250ius 2-3x week.

Next time run it all the way through.




> woof


*WOOF!*

----------


## PK-V

HA HA

woof  :Big Grin: 

ktnxbi

----------


## pstacks

Sorry if you already answered this Swifto (or anybody else with more experience than me!!)...

I am planning on running an AI (probably arimidex ) during my entire sustanon 500mg/wk (10 weeks) and dbol 40 mg/day (4-6 weeks) as I am prone to estrogen sides. I did not plan on using HCG for the entire cycle, but after reading this I am reconsidering. My guy told me to run it for the last few weeks of cycle only and run it into the beginning week of PCT

My question is, if I do not run the HCG through the whole cycle, should I increase the dose of my AI when I start the HCG?

I know you recommend using it through the entire cycle. I've seen that some people think that running HCG for more than 2-3 weeks can inhibit natural gonadotropin production (i.e. "AR Profile :HCG"). You have not found this to be the case through your experience and others who have tried it? And Swifto, you have said (and other users) multiple times that you do not like HCG as a part of PCT...why is that?

BTW, this is my first REAL cycle. 23 years old, 195 lbs, 5'9". Been lifting for 4 years.

Thanks a TON in advance for the advice.

----------


## Swifto

> Sorry if you already answered this Swifto (or anybody else with more experience than me!!)...
> 
> I am planning on running an AI (probably arimidex ) during my entire sustanon 500mg/wk (10 weeks) and dbol 40 mg/day (4-6 weeks) as I am prone to estrogen sides. I did not plan on using HCG for the entire cycle, but after reading this I am reconsidering. My guy told me to run it for the last few weeks of cycle only and run it into the beginning week of PCT
> 
> *Go with Aromasin 10mg/ED or EOD.
> 
> You can run the HCG the final weeks, but its best used on cycle, not as a treatment towards the end of the cycle IMHO.*
> 
> My question is, if I do not run the HCG through the whole cycle, should I increase the dose of my AI when I start the HCG?
> ...


bolds

----------


## jla1986

great read.

----------


## pstacks

> bolds


Thanks a lot, I appreciate you taking time to help a noob out! I will run the aromasin starting day 1, and will keep letro on hand just in case. Like I said, prone to gyno...

----------


## BJJ

Swifto, have you ever tried HMG?

If so, on paper it is stronger than HCG .
Have you experienced that difference?

75iu 3xweek is a decent protocol in your view?

----------


## BlInDsIdE

bump- kick a$$ thread

----------


## Little76

Swifto, Have you ever had low sperm issues? 

My sperm is way low, I cant remember the amount, but it was about 5% of what it should be for a 23yo.
My test is 11nmol, which is also low for my age.
NO CYCLE HISTORY
LH and FSH is in the upper half, but still "normal"

My Dr. had me on hrt for a few months, but I asked if we could try something else. He has prescribed me HCG to try and kickstart my nuts into producing more test and sperm. Im on 1500iu per week (3 shots of 500iu), for 6 weeks. We didnt talk about sides, but do you think I should get arimidex off him incase I get high estrogen?
Do you think this line of attack could help me start making a few more swimmers?

Thinks that you may need to know...
23yo
6 foot
185lbs
12%
Train to get strong for PL
looking at getting to 200-220lb at 15% this year. Just cos its PL, doesnt mean I wanna be fat lol.

My swimmers are my main concern, but if all goes well Id like to cycle later in the year.
20mg Dbol 1-4
500mg test e 1-12
500iu hcg (2x250) 1-12
tamox and clomid 14-20

Can you help a brother out? Any opinions?

----------


## bogdan84uzy

> HCG comes in 1500ius and 5000ius amps. Usually from Pregnyl. Chinese suppliers also stock their HCG in these two denominations too. 
> 
> You need to get some sterile empty 10ML glass serum vials. You can get these from AR-R . 
> 
> You also need to get some bac. water. If you were to mix 5000ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 500ius. If you were to mix 1500ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 150ius. 
> 
> Once mixed, refridgerate. I tend to use my mixed HCG within 30-45 days. 
> 
> Its really that simple.


i have a question: if you use only sterile water,because bacteriostatic water is hard to find,how long after the Hcg mix can be used?i am thinking to use a 5000ui/ml dose,diluated in 10 parts-500ui/day so this means 10 days.it is ok with sterile water?i have read somewhere that with sterile water it last only 5 days.which one is true?

thanks!

----------


## Swifto

> i have a question: if you use only sterile water,because bacteriostatic water is hard to find,how long after the Hcg mix can be used?i am thinking to use a 5000ui/ml dose,diluated in 10 parts-500ui/day so this means 10 days.it is ok with sterile water?i have read somewhere that with sterile water it last only 5 days.which one is true?
> 
> thanks!


Lasdt cycle I actually used sterile water from the needle exchange here in the UK. It was kept for about 15-20 days in the fridge and it worked fine. 

How do I know that? Because HCG gives me a little acne, my testes size returned and my PCT was pretty easy once the SERMs kicked in.

----------


## Swifto

> great read.


Thanks.




> Swifto, have you ever tried HMG?
> 
> If so, on paper it is stronger than HCG .
> Have you experienced that difference?
> 
> 75iu 3xweek is a decent protocol in your view?


On paper? Which paper?

I havent tried it, no. But a few have.

As far as I'm aware it mimics FSH, not LH. Therefore better for spermategenisis not endogenous androgen production (testosterone ).




> Swifto, Have you ever had low sperm issues? 
> 
> My sperm is way low, I cant remember the amount, but it was about 5% of what it should be for a 23yo.
> My test is 11nmol, which is also low for my age.
> NO CYCLE HISTORY
> LH and FSH is in the upper half, but still "normal"
> 
> My Dr. had me on hrt for a few months, but I asked if we could try something else. He has prescribed me HCG to try and kickstart my nuts into producing more test and sperm. Im on 1500iu per week (3 shots of 500iu), for 6 weeks. We didnt talk about sides, but do you think I should get arimidex off him incase I get high estrogen?
> Do you think this line of attack could help me start making a few more swimmers?
> ...


Sorry, I have been away and wasnt able to answer your question(s) sooner.

HCG is a good idea, but I'd also run a combination of Tamox and/or Clomid. 

I dont like the idea of HCG or HMG alone when eugondal (not during PCT if you will). It may cause other issues, such as, inhibiting endo. LH.

wk 1-3 HCG 500ius/ED
wk 2-7 Tamox 20mg/ED
wk 2-7 Clomid 25mg/ED
wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/ED

Pretty light, low doses, but should really get your testes going. If you can get HMG, even better.

----------


## chi

swifto can yuo comment on my cycle if i need to add hcg ?




> age- 32
> weight- 196
> BF- 14-15%
> height- 5'9"
> training- 14 yrs
> diet- lmo's sticky bulking diet modded
> # of cycles done and last time- 3 and 2008
> training- 5 days in the gym no excuses
> 
> ...

----------


## Little76

> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> On paper? Which paper?
> 
> I havent tried it, no. But a few have.
> 
> As far as I'm aware it mimics FSH, not LH. Therefore better for spermategenisis not endogenous androgen production (testosterone ).
> ...


I cant get HMG (yet) but Ill look into it.
I accidently wrote my does wrong. Im on 4500iu a week, 3 IM shots of 1500iu.

Ill put that cycle to my doctor as see what he says. Its a lot easier and a SHITLOAD cheaper if he writes a script for me. Being in aus, its risky getting gear from places like ar-r .
What are some of the other sides I could expect from running high does's of HCG? Just so I know what the Dr has put me up against.
Ill get bloods done mid way through to check my est levels.

----------


## bogdan84uzy

> Lasdt cycle I actually used sterile water from the needle exchange here in the UK. It was kept for about 15-20 days in the fridge and it worked fine. 
> 
> How do I know that? Because HCG gives me a little acne, my testes size returned and my PCT was pretty easy once the SERMs kicked in.


thank you very much for the answer!appreciate it!

----------


## Swifto

> swifto can yuo comment on my cycle if i need to add hcg?


Use it how I outline in post 1.




> I cant get HMG (yet) but Ill look into it.
> I accidently wrote my does wrong. Im on 4500iu a week, 3 IM shots of 1500iu.
> 
> Ill put that cycle to my doctor as see what he says. Its a lot easier and a SHITLOAD cheaper if he writes a script for me. Being in aus, its risky getting gear from places like ar-r .
> What are some of the other sides I could expect from running high does's of HCG ? Just so I know what the Dr has put me up against.
> Ill get bloods done mid way through to check my est levels.


I dont think that amount of HCG is needed, not at all in fact.

I have a PM from a member I have been helping for a little while now in regards to sperm count, mobility, etc... And his wife is now pregnant after 5 years of trying! 

Best PM I've ever got hands down.

----------


## chi

thanks buddy

----------


## Little76

Thats awesome news man. 
I'm not trying to get the missus pregnant just yet though, not for about 12 months. I want to buy a house first. 
Should I drop my does way down?

----------


## Addictive

Sorry, but what is bac. Water?

----------


## Far from massive

That is short for bacteriostatic water ( properly made it is water purified by distillation, reverse ozmosis and deionization with the addition of .9% benzyl alcohol, although lots of home brewers simply add BA to distilled water and call it Bac). By using bacteriostatic water you can keep HCG ( in the fridge) for 30-45 days. If you use regular water or saline water you have to use it immediately.

You can get bacteriostatic water over the net for about 6 dollars for 30ml.

----------


## MonteCarlo

hey swifto how would u have hcg if halfway through a cycle

----------


## Swifto

> hey swifto If I'm currently on cycle (week 8 short ester cycle prop 400mg week adding var last 6 weeks) of a 14 weeker when and how should I take hcg at this point?? I should have hcg next week (week9)
> should I take it at 500iu e3d for 6 shots then 250iu 2-3 times a week till week 14 then tamox and tore pct?


I wouldnt go with 1000-1500ius in the first week. 4 shots of 250ius, or 2-3 shots of 500ius, then back down to 250ius 2-3x week.

----------


## MonteCarlo

thanks for the reply swifto  :Smilie:

----------


## bogdan84uzy

> That is short for bacteriostatic water ( properly made it is water purified by distillation, reverse ozmosis and deionization with the addition of .9% benzyl alcohol, although lots of home brewers simply add BA to distilled water and call it Bac). By using bacteriostatic water you can keep HCG ( in the fridge) for 30-45 days. If you use regular water or saline water you have to use it immediately.


different opinions:




> Lasdt cycle I actually used sterile water from the needle exchange here in the UK. It was kept for about 15-20 days in the fridge and it worked fine. 
> 
> How do I know that? Because HCG gives me a little acne, my testes size returned and my PCT was pretty easy once the SERMs kicked in.


from what i have read about the growth hormone powder/water mix,which it is done in the same way as pregnyl,that with sterile water it last only 5 days.and with bact.water for 1month.

----------


## bmit

I'm on HRT with test and deca . Have been on about 3 years now and my Doc prescribes 1000iu HCG every 4 days

----------


## Swifto

> different opinions:
> 
> 
> 
> from what i have read about the growth hormone powder/water mix,which it is done in the same way as pregnyl,that with sterile water it last only 5 days.and with bact.water for 1month.


Mate, just f*cking mix it and use it. Your over analysing this.

I used sterile water as it was free and I had no bac water to hand. As far as I'm aware bac water is sterile water with BA added, so I could of made it.

Mixed with bac water, its good for 45-50 days. It will only lose potency slightly over time.

I used sterile water and used the mixture for about 20 days. I wouldnt call that using it immediately.

----------


## bogdan84uzy

> Mate, just f*cking mix it and use it. Your over analysing this.
> 
> I used sterile water as it was free and I had no bac water to hand. As far as I'm aware bac water is sterile water with BA added, so I could of made it.
> 
> Mixed with bac water, its good for 45-50 days. It will only lose potency slightly over time.
> 
> I used sterile water and used the mixture for about 20 days. I wouldnt call that using it immediately.


thank you very much for the answer!

----------


## bogdan84uzy

> If LH levels rise post cycle (the majority of the time) the reason why endogenous testosterone levels DONT rise, is the testes. Or testicular dysfunction. Testicular dysfunction is when the testes become atrophied from disuse or desensitised to ganadotrophins, such as LH. This could also be described as being the onset of primary hypogonadism. 
> 
> Primary hypogonadism is when the testes no longer respond to LH. The testes have a lowered sperm concentration/production and endogenous testosterone level, although LH and FSH are above normal levels. This can be due to desease (Klinefelter's syndrome), over use of anabolic steroids , as described in this study or overuse of HCG. The simple answer to primary hypogonadism is HRT.


what means overuse of Hcg ?i have seen it prescribed by doctors for secundary hypogonadism in doses of 1000-2000ui,2times/week for minimum 4-6 months...

i feel that i have desenzitised my body to Hcg with around 4 doses of 5000ui,5 days apart each...i have stop any cycle for about 1 year and a half but still i had testicular athrophy and low libido/sperm count.i dont want to go on HRT,as i want to be fertile in the future.i will try to use Hcg 500ui/day or EOD with 20mg Nolva/day till something happenes(i hope).if not,i will quit and still i will not use TRT.i will use Proviron /Nolva,which still give me a chance to be fertile compared to TRT...

----------


## pstacks

just reread this thread front to back...great info through and through swifto.

----------


## Swifto

> what means overuse of Hcg ?i have seen it prescribed by doctors for secundary hypogonadism in doses of 1000-2000ui,2times/week for minimum 4-6 months...
> 
> i feel that i have desenzitised my body to Hcg with around 4 doses of 5000ui,5 days apart each...i have stop any cycle for about 1 year and a half but still i had testicular athrophy and low libido/sperm count.i dont want to go on HRT,as i want to be fertile in the future.i will try to use Hcg 500ui/day or EOD with 20mg Nolva/day till something happenes(i hope).if not,i will quit and still i will not use TRT.i will use Proviron/Nolva,which still give me a chance to be fertile compared to TRT...


Go EOD on the HCG.

Stay on that for a bit, but the 5000ius shots maye have done some damage. Lets hope its reversable.

Stay away from Proviron during PCT in your case.




> just reread this thread front to back...great info through and through swifto.


Thank-you and well done.

I wish all that ask questions here have done this also, as many times I have repeated myself.

----------


## bogdan84uzy

> Go EOD on the HCG .
> 
> Stay on that for a bit, but the 5000ius shots maye have done some damage. Lets hope its reversable.
> 
> Stay away from Proviron during PCT in your case.


thanks man!how long should i stay on Hcg?and in what doses EOD?

----------


## Flier

> That is short for bacteriostatic water ( properly made it is water purified by distillation, reverse ozmosis and deionization with the addition of .9% benzyl alcohol, although lots of home brewers simply add BA to distilled water and call it Bac). By using bacteriostatic water you can keep HCG ( in the fridge) for 30-45 days. If you use regular water or saline water you have to use it immediately.
> 
> You can get bacteriostatic water over the net for about 6 dollars for 30ml.


Anyone know what this water is called in a scandinavian language.
Seems like something the local pharmacy should stock?

----------


## alpenguy

How does HCG affect lipids and overall blood values?

If shut down for a considerable period or never came back fully, would it be advised to start an HCG protocol and then another PCT (Tamox)

I know Dr.Scally has restarted users with high doses of HCG - How long after they were shut down; and how are they now

Would be interesting to know

----------


## alpenguy

you out there Swifto?

----------


## LouisFit16

> I would start at week 4 and run it through week 14 at 250iu's 3x a week.....
> 
> ~Haz~


thats the same way i feel... i like doing it during my cycle and finish before pct starts... in the past i have used it as a pct... but i liked the results running it during my cycle... why do u feel doing it during the cycle is better.... i felt better during my cycle and great on my pct just running my scheduled pct of clomids and nova...

i am running right now a 14 week cycle 500mg os sustanon and 400mg of primo... the primo i am running for 12 weeks and the test 14 weeks.. starting pct week 16.. clomids 100 50 50 50 and nova 40 20 20 20... hcg i was planning 500 2x a week for 8 weeks... or 250 4 x a week.... what do youthink?

----------


## crazy_rocks

so when hcg raises estrogen is that just for steroid users or is that a risk anyone may face?

----------


## baseline_9

BUMP

Sticky!

----------


## Hbaz2k

Sorry if this has already been answered and I may sound stupid but I can not find the answer and want to make sure as I am planning on running a cycle with HCG , is HCG injected into muscle? Also can HCG be mixed in the same syringe as other steroids ? I understand it has to be pre mixed and then refrigerated first.

----------


## Swifto

Bump.

----------


## gbrice75

I'm pretty certain of the answer, but i'll ask anyway. Once mixed with bact water, is there ANY storage alternative other than refrigeration? The problem is I am running this cycle without the wife's knowledge (and blessing, obviously) and storing it in the fridge is going to be tricky. I have a 2nd fridge in my garage that she rarely if ever goes into, so I at least have that in my corner.

----------


## gbrice75

Bump.

I finally got my HCG today. 5000iu, and I have 30ml bact water. Somebody tell me if I have my math right please!

I plan to do 250iu 2x weekly for 8 weeks. I'm going to mix the 5000iu HCG w/ 2ml water, then fill (20) slin pins up to the '10' mark. I'll use (16) of them although I might increase dosage to 500iu 2x weekly towards the end of the cycle and wind up using all 20. 

Do I have my math figured right? Sorry guys, this is coming from an idiot who JUST passed math with 70's...  :Frown:

----------


## rockinred

> Bump.
> 
> I finally got my HCG today. 5000iu, and I have 30ml bact water. Somebody tell me if I have my math right please!
> 
> I plan to do 250iu 2x weekly for 8 weeks. I'm going to mix the 5000iu HCG w/ 2ml water, then fill (20) slin pins up to the '10' mark. I'll use (16) of them although I might increase dosage to 500iu 2x weekly towards the end of the cycle and wind up using all 20. 
> 
> Do I have my math figured right? Sorry guys, this is coming from an idiot who JUST passed math with 70's...


I would run the 5000iu with 10ml of bac water to get a concentration of 1ml=500iu. Then do 1/2ml slin pins to get the 250iu twice a week. Watch for the water retention. Don't forget to keep refrigerated after you mix too. I forgot the refrigeration life once its refrigerated, but I think you will be safe for the 8 weeks. Might want to double check that though. I keep the number whole and round. Your ratio seems higher if you mix only 2mls of water with 5000iu's.

----------


## Swifto

> I would run the 5000iu with 10ml of bac water to get a concentration of 1ml=500iu. Then do 1/2ml slin pins to get the 250iu twice a week. Watch for the water retention. Don't forget to keep refrigerated after you mix too. I forgot the refrigeration life once its refrigerated, but I think you will be safe for the 8 weeks. Might want to double check that though. I keep the number whole and round. Your ratio seems higher if you mix only 2mls of water with 5000iu's.


Thats what I do.

Dont know of any other storage way, only refridgeration.

----------


## gbrice75

^^^ thx guys. I'll need to buy a 10ml vial to mix in for this, and I JUST placed an order with AR-R today for slin pins... another $8 for shipping for 1 effing vial, grrrr!!!!

----------


## jelly

> ^^^ thx guys. I'll need to buy a 10ml vial to mix in for this, and I JUST placed an order with AR-R today for slin pins... another $8 for shipping for 1 effing vial, grrrr!!!!


I always mix 5000iu with 5ml of bac. water. It makes the math much easier. When you do this proportion and fill a 1ml (1cc) slin syringe all the way it will be holding 1000iu at the 100 mark, 500iu at the 50 mark, and 250iu at the 25 mark. As an example lets say you wanted 150iu, you would simply fill the slin needle to the 15 mark. MUCH easier this way.

If you bought a 1000iu package you would mix it with 1ml bac. water. If you bought a 5,000iu package you would mix it with 5ml bac. water. If you bought a 10,000iu package you would mix it with 10ml bac. water. ...and so on... In doing this you would have the same iu/ml concentration as stated previously (1000iu/ml).

Take it from me, I have a science degree. This formula for mixing HCG is much simpler.

----------


## Chevroletstud

I think I messed up....i mixed a 5000iu am with 2.5 ml of bac water and injected .125 ius. I thought that was 250ius. Yes or no?

----------


## maxwell78

So I got my HCG and order just came from AR-R yest. Very timely might I add.

Ok so if I mix 5000 IU's of HCG with 10ml Bac. Water into a sterile vial....is the 50 mark on the insulin syringe going to be 250 IU's and the 100 on the syringe would be 500 IU's?

that is what I am getting from reading swifto's thread on it...but i need to make sure im understanding this right.

I also wanted to know when its best to inject the HCG. should i just do it on my days that I do the test...[mon/thurs] and does it matter what time of day. and how long will this let me run the hcg for? i think i have enough for about 8 weeks

please advise

----------


## gbrice75

> So I got my HCG and order just came from AR-R yest. Very timely might I add.
> 
> Ok so if I mix 5000 IU's of HCG with 10ml Bac. Water into a sterile vial....is the 50 mark on the insulin syringe going to be 250 IU's and the 100 on the syringe would be 500 IU's?
> 
> that is what I am getting from reading swifto's thread on it...but i need to make sure im understanding this right.
> 
> I also wanted to know when its best to inject the HCG. should i just do it on my days that I do the test...[mon/thurs] and does it matter what time of day. and how long will this let me run the hcg for? i think i have enough for about 8 weeks
> 
> please advise


What Swifto suggests is fine, however I opted to go with Jelly's math (see post 468) as it does seem to be simplest (and i'm a simpleton, so I need that). 

It doesn't really matter when you inject - day, or time of day. That said, if you're injecting your test on Monday and Thursday, you might as well do the HCG those days as well - get everything done in one shot (no pun). I'd find it annoying to have to think too much ... like... ok, test is Monday/Thurs, HCG is Tues/Fri... etc...

----------


## maxwell78

> What Swifto suggests is fine, however I opted to go with Jelly's math (see post 468) as it does seem to be simplest (and i'm a simpleton, so I need that). 
> 
> It doesn't really matter when you inject - day, or time of day. That said, if you're injecting your test on Monday and Thursday, you might as well do the HCG those days as well - get everything done in one shot (no pun). I'd find it annoying to have to think too much ... like... ok, test is Monday/Thurs, HCG is Tues/Fri... etc...


That is what I figured too..might as well just have two shot days for all of it. ok so let me see if i understand this correctly...if I want to use jellys math and use the 5mls of water...and i want to do 250 iu's on mon/thurs....i would draw up to the 25 mark each time?? that just seems like a lot to be injecting...i just want to make sure i am not screwing this up.

----------


## smallnutz

If someone could help I looked on ar-r and cudnt find hcg ?

----------


## UnderTheRose

Ok...I have read thread from front to back and i "believe" ive got the right idea....please correct if wrong.

5000iu HCG mixed in 5ml Bac Water for the simple conversion.

Pin .25 2x week, product will yield 20 pins-10 weeks of use.

Is my math correct? Will i be pinning in the abdomen with an insulin pin?

*Thanks for the Info Swifto*

----------


## Swifto

bump

----------


## depfife

there are those who say HCG should not be run during pct. Could hinder recovery. Have you heard this? what are your thoughts T?

----------


## Biker84

Is it required to refrigerated hcg ? I only ask cause it would be very difficult to hide it from my wife. Sorry if that is a stupid question

----------


## BigBadWolf

> Is it required to refrigerated hcg? I only ask cause it would be very difficult to hide it from my wife. Sorry if that is a stupid question


Its Required if you want it to work.

----------


## Biker84

> Its Required if you want it to work.


Point taken...lol.

----------


## Swifto

> there are those who say HCG should not be run during pct. Could hinder recovery. Have you heard this? what are your thoughts T?


Well, seeing as HCG mimics LH, the body may not want to produce LH when we're injecting a synthetic version, like it does with a lot of other compounds (feedback mechanism). This is not set in stone, but I would rather avoid it possibly happening. Use HCG as a pre-PCT and get the testes online before introducting SERMs during PCT is what I do.

----------


## Ben_66

Bump, A lot of people asking about HCG . I was one of them, this post has solved my HCG confusion. Thank you Swifto

----------


## AD

this should have been made sticky the day it was written.

----------


## Tim14

Any idea what the best site to purchase some HCG from would be? Would like to be sure im getting the real thing.

----------


## BigBadWolf

> Any idea what the best site to purchase some HCG from would be? Would like to be sure im getting the real thing.


Can't ask that.

----------


## Trying-Hard

Hey Swifto. GREAT read. Your thread coupled with some advice from the other veterans motivated me to get HCG last night. =) 

I read your entire (almost) thread and have some questions if you don't mind. Just as a little background.... I am 30, 1st cycle, 5'[email protected] lbs, 12-13%. I am taking 500mg/wk of test cyp split on Mon / Thr for 12 weeks. I am finishing week 2 tomorrow with 10 weeks left. I want to start using HCG immediately. Here are my questions.

1) Some of your older posts in 2009 stated that as a first timer, you recommend 500IU 2-3x/wk and then taper down to 250IUs 2-3x/wk. Is this still your take on it till this day? Or would 250IU on test injection days be ok for my remainder of the 10 weeks? HCG would be injected separately - Subq, not IM.

2) If an HCG dose is going to be missed, how would you dose it? For example, I am going to miss Monday’s injection of test and HCG (8/27) but I will be back on Thursday (8/30) Knowing that, how would you dose the HCG? Double up on it on Thursday, the week prior? Just skip the dose and just start at the normal dose upon coming back? etc.

3) Lastly, if there are not any sign of testicular atrophy, would you still recommend to take HCG regardless? I am assuming by reading your previous posts that the answer is YES, but I would like to confirm. 

Thanks bro, I appreciate your knowledge and advice giving to the noobs such as myself.. :Smilie:

----------


## Trying-Hard

Bump

----------


## Swifto

> Hey Swifto. GREAT read. Your thread coupled with some advice from the other veterans motivated me to get HCG last night. =) 
> 
> I read your entire (almost) thread and have some questions if you don't mind. Just as a little background.... I am 30, 1st cycle, 5'[email protected] lbs, 12-13%. I am taking 500mg/wk of test cyp split on Mon / Thr for 12 weeks. I am finishing week 2 tomorrow with 10 weeks left. I want to start using HCG immediately. Here are my questions.
> 
> 1) Some of your older posts in 2009 stated that as a first timer, you recommend 500IU 2-3x/wk and then taper down to 250IUs 2-3x/wk. Is this still your take on it till this day? Or would 250IU on test injection days be ok for my remainder of the 10 weeks? HCG would be injected separately - Subq, not IM.
> 
> *250-500ius administered every 4 days. Double the HCG for the final 4 shots lading to PCT. Make sure your last HCG shot is 4-5 days away from PCT.
> 
> HCG - sub-q.
> ...


bolds

----------


## AD

bump

----------


## Swifto

bump.

----------


## GymRat96744

Hey guys please correct me if im wrong but if i mix my 5000iu HCG with 10mL of bacteriostatic water then that would make the mixed HCG 500iu in 1ML. I understansd that it only has a shelf life of 45 days once mixed. But if i dose it at 250iu twice a week that would be 500iu a week. It would take me 70 days to finish my 10mL vial of HCG. Would the HCG be no good after 45 days? This is my first time using HCG so just trying to cover every angle. thanks guys.

----------


## GymRat96744

could you i also get the best mixing calculations for 250iu twice a week if i decide to preload syringes as i think it might be easier. thanks for all the help guys. really appreciate it.

----------


## Lazarov

I have a similar concern as GymRat. If I mix the 5000iu vile of HCG , that should last me 70 days. Should we just throw the mixture away and make another for the second half of the cycle?

----------


## Lazarov

Test E 500mg weeks 1-12
Arimidex .25mg ED weeks 1-13
HCG 500mg/week weeks 2-13

PCT- Nolvadex 40/40/20/20/20/20

A lot of this has been adjusted due to what I've learned on this thread.
Thanks Swifto.
And is Nolva sufficient for PCT, should I add Clomid? Or not really necessary. Thanks.

----------


## Back In Black

> Test E 500mg weeks 1-12
> Arimidex .25mg ED weeks 1-13
> HCG 500mg/week weeks 2-13
> 
> PCT- Nolvadex 40/40/20/20/20/20
> 
> A lot of this has been adjusted due to what I've learned on this thread.
> Thanks Swifto.
> And is Nolva sufficient for PCT, should I add Clomid? Or not really necessary. Thanks.


Please don't entertain this 21 year old who has been repeatedly told and keeps jumping threads to try and get just one person to tell him everything is ok!

----------


## MuscleInk

> Please don't entertain this 21 year old who has been repeatedly told and keeps jumping threads to try and get just one person to tell him everything is ok!


Thanks SteM.

----------


## dec11

> Please don't entertain this 21 year old who has been repeatedly told and keeps jumping threads to try and get just one person to tell him everything is ok!


yeah, noticed the little brat......

----------


## dec11

i really hope that some ppl arent having the attitude of, 'oh if i use hcg , im golden', big mistake, i used it extensively and it did sod all for me. still ended up on trt after only 6 cycles. food for thought and testament to, 'does hcg even work anywhere near the way its supposed to, for this purpose'?

----------


## Swifto

> yeah, noticed the little brat......


Keep your stupid attitude out of my threads.




> i really hope that some ppl arent having the attitude of, 'oh if i use hcg, im golden', big mistake, i used it extensively and it did sod all for me. still ended up on trt after only 6 cycles. food for thought and testament to, 'does hcg even work anywhere near the way its supposed to, for this purpose'?


This is about damage limitation. It can work for some, it may not others, but you will seriously help yourself if you do use it, as opposed to not using it.

----------


## mhswhite500

I realize this thread is sort of old, but hopefully Swifto can give me some insight here. I am running a cycle in the start of december, so I am making sure that I have everything lined up correctly. 

I am definitely going to use HCG for this cycle because last time I ran a similar cycle I was depressed as a mo fo. I am running test prop, tbol (for start), primo, and anavar . Arimidex will be used at .5mg ed. I have my pct and cycle lined up here, but I am here to ask on how much HCG I should use? 

Since I am using relatively fast acting gear should I pin right away? Or can I wait a few weeks into the cycle and then continue it the whole way? Or just till week 9 or 10 at 200ius 2xweek. I am running a 12 week cycle.

----------


## senorrebo

Great post, thank you!

----------


## 3day

Bump! For happy gonads everywhere

----------


## mhswhite500

Bump

----------


## RyanGreg

Swifto a few Q's.....

1) Im running a 16 week cycle....Will 10 weeks of HCG dosed at 250iu 2x per week be fine for my cycle?




> 16 weeks test propionate 50mg ED
> 16 weeks Aromasin 12.5mg ED
> 14 weeks Masteron 100mg ED
> 12 weeks Trenbolone Acetate 50mg ED
> 12 weeks Cabergoline 0.5mg 2x per week
> 10 weeks HCG 250iu 2x per week
> 8 weeks Clenbuterol 40/80/120mcg ED (2 weeks on 2 weeks off) (supplementing with potassium and taurine while on)
> 
> PCT:
> ...


2) Can i put HCG in the same syringe as test/mast/tren ?

3) What do you think about the supplement HCGenerate?.... Will i benefit from adding this for on cycle support as well?

thank you very much for your time.....

----------


## olympia2022

> Swifto a few Q's.....
> 
> 1) Im running a 16 week cycle....Will 10 weeks of HCG dosed at 250iu 2x per week be fine for my cycle?
> 
> 2) Can i put HCG in the same syringe as test/mast/tren ?
> 
> 3) What do you think about the supplement HCGenerate?.... Will i benefit from adding this for on cycle support as well?
> 
> thank you very much for your time.....


1) I would do it every other day at 200-250 iu and yes the last 10 weeks should be fine. Half life of hcg is 48 hrs...

2) Yeah you can mix it but I would rather put it in subq because it's meant to be injected into fat and not muscle. Also subq is a lot easier in my experience and since you're doing it eod, your normal pins are not eod.

3) Can't help u on this one, never heard of it.

I realize i'm not the guy you originally asked but I answered 2/3 lol.

----------


## Karan0077

hey swifto.. i'm on a 12 week test e /deca cycle. its my first cycle.i started off with 250mg test e and 100 mg deca on last monday. i have been taking adex .5mg e3d and caber .5mg twice a week. its week 2 now. just need some advice on hcg . should i run it at 250 iu twice per week throughout the 12 weeks..??

----------


## austinite

> hey swifto.. i'm on a 12 week test e /deca cycle. its my first cycle.i started off with 250mg test e and 100 mg deca on last monday. i have been taking adex .5mg e3d and caber .5mg twice a week. its week 2 now. just need some advice on hcg. should i run it at 250 iu twice per week throughout the 12 weeks..??


Swifto is no longer with us. Notice his status. This is a very old thread.

----------


## Karan0077

ohh. thats sad. can you help me with this aust?

----------


## austinite

> ohh. thats sad. can you help me with this aust?


Not sad at all really. Good riddance. He scammed our members. 

This should answer all hCG related questions... if not, post your question there.

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...njections.html

----------


## allessa

in a cycle of 16 weeks of test enant. can I start hcg from the tenth week? we say to 500iu week? or should I start first?

----------


## austinite

> in a cycle of 16 weeks of test enant. can I start hcg from the tenth week? we say to 500iu week? or should I start first?


hCG for entire cycle. 

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...njections.html

----------


## AverageGymRat

I wish I could run HCG but if my gf found out it was at the fridge, she would break up with me, I can tell. She is very anti drug. Idk what to do.

----------


## austinite

> I wish I could run HCG but if my gf found out it was at the fridge, she would break up with me, I can tell. She is very anti drug. Idk what to do.


Well, please stop bumping several threads with the same question. Not knowing what to do about your girlfriend is not something anyone is really concerned with. That is for you to figure out.

----------


## skylermach10

if im on a 12 week cycle of test p do i continue taking hcg 2-3 weeks after last injection and stop the day before pct starts? so a total of 14-15 weeks 250iu 2xwk?

----------


## carbo

> if im on a 12 week cycle of test p do i continue taking hcg 2-3 weeks after last injection and stop the day before pct starts? so a total of 14-15 weeks 250iu 2xwk?


I'm gonna make it real simple for you player, you take your last shot of HCG with the Test P and then start your PCT 4 DAYS later.

----------

