# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Comparison between 100mg test Sub-Q and IM (with labwork)

## GFA

Figured I would make a post specifically for this now that I have my results. 

Quick summary, blood work using 100mg test-cyp 1 injection weekly, no other ancillaries used, timing of shot was Sunday morning. Reasoning was to get a real comparison between using test Sub-Q and IM. No other variables to cloud the results. I know protocols call for AI, HCG , multiple shots and so on. This is to get a result from just testosterone 1x a week using IM and Sub-Q delivery methods. These are MY personal results so if you have different results I encourage you to post them.


Results from labwork (100 mg Test-cyp Sub-Q 1x a week)

Estradiol 21.2 7.6-42.6	pg/mL
Testosterone , Serum 366 348-1197	ng/dL
Testosterone, Total, Lc/Ms	334.0 348.0-1197.0	ng/dL
Testost., % Free+Weakly Bound 30.8 9.0-46.0	%
Testost., F+W Bound 102.9 40.0-250.0	ng/dL

So when I did 1 shot IM 100g a week, my Total test was 792, over 2x what it is using Sub-Q.

This is a slight increase from baseline which was 284.

*Summary*

Baseline (no testosterone injections) *284* ng/dL (Sept 12, 2012)
100mg Test-Cyp 1x a week Sub-Q *366* ng/dL (Jan 3, 2013)
100mg Test-Cyp 1x a week IM *792* ng/dL (May 11, 2012)

Ill be switching back to IM with a drop of ldex 1x a week to keep the e2 in check. This explains why I have been feeling tired lately.


Bottom line, Sub-Q is not as effective as IM for me. IM shots are 2x as effective for raising testosterone levels with the same dosage and timing.

*Question*: Why did you switch from IM to Sub-Q if your test was good to begin with?

*Answer*: I wanted to see what impact sub-q had on my RBCs and test levels, in addition sub-q is much easier than IM. I know from experience HCG is effective sub-q so I was hoping injecting test sub-q would give me similar results.


*Question*: How long did you do Sub-Q or IM before getting test results?

*Answer*: 6 weeks on each protocol before getting labs.


*Question*: When did you get the labwork done in relation to the injections?

*Answer*: Labs were done on Wednesday, injections were on Sunday so 3 days after.

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## Torqued

How long after your injections were your labs drawn in each case?

How long were you on IM before getting the labs listed above?

How long were you on SQ before getting the labs listed above?

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## lovbyts

> How long after your injections were your labs drawn in each case?
> 
> How long were you on IM before getting the labs listed above?
> 
> How long were you on SQ before getting the labs listed above?


^^^^This

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## kelkel

GFA curious why you didn't go twice per week SQ, which is the more preferred method of SQ protocols.

Interesting comparison though and would love to see more from others. Although I don't know anyone injecting 100mg SQ at one time. Max seems to be around 60mg per injection.

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## GFA

> How long after your injections were your labs drawn in each case?
> 
> How long were you on IM before getting the labs listed above?
> 
> How long were you on SQ before getting the labs listed above?


Lab done on Wednesday, injection on sunday (3 days after last injection).

6 weeks on each before getting labwork.




> GFA curious why you didn't go twice per week SQ, which is the more preferred method of SQ protocols.


I wanted to keep the results close from a control stand point. 1 shot weekly IM vs 1 shot weekly SQ. Changing up dosing schedule or adding ancillaries dont keep the results consistent. Adds more variables that way.

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## bass

It's not a good comparison imo, sq protocol is called for twice a week as Kel noted, so the comparison should have been each protocol done correctly to get maximum results. That e2 test is not sensitive assay, so you really don't know where you sit with e2. Thanks for taking the time to do this, now we know sq is best taken twice weekly.

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## lovbyts

> Lab done on Wednesday, injection on sunday (3 days after last injection).
> 
> 6 weeks on each before getting labwork.
> 
> I wanted to keep the results close from a control stand point. 1 shot weekly IM vs 1 shot weekly SQ. Changing up dosing schedule or adding ancillaries dont keep the results consistent. Adds more variables that way.


Looks like you need to do it one more time to make the test complete using the 2x a week sq method. 

Thanks for your effort. Great idea and great initiative.

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## bullshark99

Very interesting GFA, labs taken 3 days after inject, would assume this would be a peak number, pretty surprised how low it is.  Subaqueous clearly suggested twice per week but if the draw was 72 hrs after inject I do not see how 2 pins @ 50mgs would yield numbers much different than one pin @100mgs considering it was peak levels? SubQ delivers slower if not mistaken, so maybe the 2 pins would change things , but how much???

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## bass

when I did my comparison its was about the same. not sure how much fat GFA has, but if he fairly thin he might be injecting under the skin and not in the fat! just something to look into...

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## GFA

> It's not a good comparison imo, sq protocol is called for twice a week as Kel noted, so the comparison should have been each protocol done correctly to get maximum results. That e2 test is not sensitive assay, so you really don't know where you sit with e2. Thanks for taking the time to do this, now we know sq is best taken twice weekly.


Actually I would say its a very good experiment to do because know we know that injecting sub-q is completely different than IM for absorption. What is happening exactly when you inject sub-q? Is less being absorbed? We know the half life of test is ~6 days which means injecting sub-q is not absorbing the test as efficiently as IM.

I would seriously reconsider doing sub-q unless we know what the aborptions rates are.

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## OLDANDWEAK

Just curious, about where is your BF % currently, and did you use the 1" pins throughout the six week period?

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## GFA

> Just curious, about where is your BF % currently, and did you use the 1" pins throughout the six week period?


I would say around 20%+ BF and 5/8" needles. 

I was injecting into my abdominal region. It was definitely into the fat. The last time I saw a 6 pack was in my fridge. So no accidental IM injections there haha.

Anyways I did an IM injection today 200mg to jumpstart the system. Ill prob get another lab done in 2 months or so.

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## APIs

I guess everyone absorbs differently. Personally, I've never had the desire to try sub-q...

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## GFA

> I guess everyone absorbs differently. Personally, I've never had the desire to try sub-q...


Right, my body appears to metabolize testosterone at a much higher rate when injecting sub-q. 

Regardless of dosing frequency (2x a week or 1x a week) with a half life of a week, a 3 day lab should yield similar results if my body was absorbing the testosterone at the same rates IM vs sub-q.

This is clearly not the case which means in my body, IM is much more effective.

I had 2 reasons for trying sub-q, 1. easier to do, 2. possibly control rbc levels.

My RBCs have been much better the past 6 weeks but now I know its because my body wasnt absorbing the testosterone.

*Summary*: Injecting sub-q is a waste of time for *me*. Might work for others but definitely does not work for me. Injecting sub-q was supposed to yield similar absorption rates. It clearly does not in my case. Injecting into the fat is basically just pouring it into the drain.

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## OLDANDWEAK

I just started subQ injections a couple of weeks ago. This has got me worried that my levels will go way down now. It is easier for sure, and I can do it myself with no worries. I will have labs done around feb/mar and see where I am at that time. My total test level was 680 last labwork with IM injection EOW of 200mg. And the blood was pulled 10 days after injecting. If my levels are lower next BW I will start doing IM 100mg per week.

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## GFA

> I just started subQ injections a couple of weeks ago. This has got me worried that my levels will go way down now. It is easier for sure, and I can do it myself with no worries. I will have labs done around feb/mar and see where I am at that time. My total test level was 680 last labwork with IM injection EOW of 200mg. And the blood was pulled 10 days after injecting. If my levels are lower next BW I will start doing IM 100mg per week.


Ya never know unless you try. 200 EOW is too long since the half life is 6-7 days. That means you are crashing down to 300ish before your next injection. Probably 1600-300 range peak to low. 

Im not going to bother with more frequent injections sub-q because 1x week IM should be the same as 1x a week sub-q if the absorption rates were the same given the half life of test. 

Anyone else using sub-q, I recommend seeing if it actually works for you. Having AIs and HCG in your protocol makes it hard to determine since HCG by itself can raise your test levels if you are secondary. That is the reason I did just testosterone during my experiment with exact same dosing schedule. I know exactly how sub-q impacts my body.

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## TMan96

Great topic interested in seeing more responses on this thread. I am currently IM. Thinking about doing sq @ some point.

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## HRTstudent

Good thread.

I just replied to your other thread, but I look forward to more.

I agree that this is a very good experiment in that you limited all the variables you could. Is it perfect? No. But this is the best 1-man study of IM vs Subq that I've seen online in a while.

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## HRTstudent

> Great topic interested in seeing more responses on this thread. I am currently IM. Thinking about doing sq @ some point.


If you're someone like the OP who had a really nice 700 T level with 1 shot per week, then it might be fine to stay with that. But for some people like myself, 1 time shots of T into the muscle leave them in hypogonadal range at the end of the week.

Now, would 2 shots intramuscular be better? Probably. But now you must ask, whats the significance of poking over 100 holes in your muscles for the next 30,40,50 years? Ouch... that's what made me want to switch to SubQ. I just intuitively do not believe that much trauma (even if it seems small) to my muscles is good.

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## GFA

> If you're someone like the OP who had a really nice 700 T level with 1 shot per week, then it might be fine to stay with that. But for some people like myself, 1 time shots of T into the muscle leave them in hypogonadal range at the end of the week.
> 
> Now, would 2 shots intramuscular be better? Probably. But now you must ask, whats the significance of poking over 100 holes in your muscles for the next 30,40,50 years? Ouch... that's what made me want to switch to SubQ. I just intuitively do not believe that much trauma (even if it seems small) to my muscles is good.


Believe me, I was really hoping SubQ would be just as effective as IM for a variety of reasons, unfortunately its not. If others have success with it, then continue to do it. 

Thanks for the props on the 1 man study lol. I know its not perfect and I heard many times to do this or that but changing variables alters the integrity of the study thats why I chose to stick with 1 shot a week because I know how 1 shot a week works via IM on my body.

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## Allaaro

I did sub-q injections, 3x per week for 150mg total. My free test was in middle of the range. 56.5 in a range of 31-94.

I changed to 200mg total, 2x per week IM. My free test came back at 121.1 with the same ranges.

Bloodwork on Monday morning with mon/wed/fri on sub-q and mon/thur shots IM. I know the dosages aren't the same....but it seems to me I respond better to IM. My doc lowered me to 160mg per week IM and I'll have results in a few weeks when I get my appointment.

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## kelkel

Personally I rotate and use SQ as just a part of it in my twice per week protocol. In otherwords I prefer the more stable levels of twice per week injections but don't really care if it's IM or SQ. Whatever I choose for that day. Glutes, delts, SQ.....

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## PetrX

Reason why estrogen levels and such are lower when you inject via SQ is because it doesn't absorbed as effective as IM therefore you Test levels don't go up as high which is why estrogen levels are lower via SQ

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## bass

> Actually I would say its a very good experiment to do because know we know that injecting sub-q is completely different than IM for absorption. What is happening exactly when you inject sub-q? Is less being absorbed? We know the half life of test is ~6 days which means injecting sub-q is not absorbing the test as efficiently as IM.
> 
> I would seriously reconsider doing sub-q unless we know what the aborptions rates are.


GFA, I did this experiment a wile ago and posted it here, the difference between yours and mine is I continued AI and hCG , my test levels were almost the same. if you see my latest BW I just posted, at 50 mgs twice a week got my total close to 800 and my free way above normal range. I guess we all absorb differently but I think the key here is SQ must be twice a week to be effective, I can't explain it but thats how it works best!

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## GFA

> Reason why estrogen levels and such are lower when you inject via SQ is because it doesn't absorbed as effective as IM therefore you Test levels don't go up as high which is why estrogen levels are lower via SQ


Which defeats the purpose of injecting SQ, you can obtain the same result by not injecting testosterone at all. If you absorbing less test, that means you have to inject more to get the same effect which would probably have the same effect on estrogen.

In my case I was absorbing almost no test. 




> GFA, I did this experiment a wile ago and posted it here, the difference between yours and mine is I continued AI and hCG , my test levels were almost the same. if you see my latest BW I just posted, at 50 mgs twice a week got my total close to 800 and my free way above normal range. I guess we all absorb differently but I think the key here is SQ must be twice a week to be effective, I can't explain it but thats how it works best!


You should try again without HCG or AI. Your experiment is flawed since HCG and AI can raise your test levels. Thats why I went with testosterone alone. When I did HCG mono therapy in the past my test levels went up to 700 ish @250 iu a day. AIs are also known to increase testosterone levels . 

Its possible you are absorbing very little to no testosterone. You wont know for sure unless you redo your bw only using testosterone. 

@kelkel, have you tested just SQ alone? If not, its also possible your SQ injections are going to waste. 

Im not here to tell people how to inject, but if they think they are getting the same absorption rates using SQ, its clearly not the case for me and others may have similar absorption rates. Introducing ancillaries in your protocol only cloud your results. 

Baseline (no testosterone injections) 284 ng/dL 
100mg Test-Cyp 1x a week Sub-Q 366 ng/dL (increase of 82 ng/DL) - basically within the standard deviation. 
100mg Test-Cyp 1x a week IM 792 ng/dL (May 11, 2012) - increase of 512 ng/dL

This is a *HUGE* difference in absorption rates. Thats like 16% absorption rate if you consider IM as 100% (and I dont know what the absorption rate for IM is)

SQ is 16% (82/512) as effective as IM. 84% is metabolized.

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## booku

I am very intrigued by your results. I am 22 years old and just started TRT on Dec. 29th, with test only at 100 mg/week sub-Q at 2, 50 mg shots/week. My baseline T level pre TRT was 70 ng/dL. Will post my first bloodwork results in February. My fingers are crossed that sub-Q works well enough for me!

This will be a good trial run for a Test ONLY, SUB-Q, twice a week protocol

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## lovbyts

> I am very intrigued by your results. I am 22 years old and just started TRT on Dec. 29th, with test only at 100 mg/week sub-Q at 2, 50 mg shots/week. My baseline T level pre TRT was 70 ng/dL. Will post my first bloodwork results in February. My fingers are crossed that sub-Q works well enough for me!
> 
> This will be a good trial run for a Test ONLY, SUB-Q, twice a week protocol


22 and on TRT? Under doctor supervision right?

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## booku

> 22 and on TRT? Under doctor supervision right?


correct, doctor prescribed. thyroid good, pituitary good, testicles good, so this is the road I've taken

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## GFA

> correct, doctor prescribed. thyroid good, pituitary good, testicles good, so this is the road I've taken


Looking forward to the results but have you explored HPTA restart? How is your LH/FSH? 22 is really young to do TRT for the rest of your life. Having kids may be very difficult in the future.

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## GFA

So far we have

*GFA* - 100 mg (1x100mg weekly)
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. 

*Allaaro* - do you have total test levels as well?
Baseline ?
SQ* 56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku*
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

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## booku

> So far we have
> 
> *GFA* - 100 mg (1x100mg weekly)
> Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
> SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
> IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
> Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. 
> 
> *Allaaro* - do you have total test levels as well?
> ...


added my free test in there with ranges.

also my LH was 1.5 on a scale of 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL and my FSH was 2.5 on a scale of 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL. the diagnosis i received from an endo and a urologist is that it's idiopathic secondary hypogonadism, which means that the cause is unknown, ie. "sometimes it just happens" in the words of the endo. somehow the pituitary might have been damaged from sickness, environment, etc.

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## Allaaro

> So far we have
> 
> *GFA* - 100 mg (1x100mg weekly)
> Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
> SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
> IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
> Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. 
> 
> *Allaaro* - do you have total test levels as well?
> ...


Added in ranges for free test and total test for first one.

Also baseline: Free testosterone , 19.1, range 31-94 range. Total test: 9, range 8.4-28.7

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## kelkel

_@kelkel, have you tested just SQ alone? If not, its also possible your SQ injections are going to waste._ 

No, never just SQ alone. I prefer a rotation for variety and will always do so. I just don't like the thought of one way only for many of the reasons posted above. In multiple threads I've stated, IMHO, that it's the twice per week protocol that's crucial, not so much SQ. But again, that's just my opinion based on less injected = less spike in E.

Really great thread GFA. Keep tracking things and update this. Very informative.

kel

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## bass

> Which defeats the purpose of injecting SQ, you can obtain the same result by not injecting testosterone at all. If you absorbing less test, that means you have to inject more to get the same effect which would probably have the same effect on estrogen.
> 
> In my case I was absorbing almost no test.
> 
> You should try again without HCG or AI. Your experiment is flawed since HCG and AI can raise your test levels. Thats why I went with testosterone alone. When I did HCG mono therapy in the past my test levels went up to 700 ish @250 iu a day. AIs are also known to increase testosterone levels .
> 
> Its possible you are absorbing very little to no testosterone. You wont know for sure unless you redo your bw only using testosterone.
> 
> @kelkel, have you tested just SQ alone? If not, its also possible your SQ injections are going to waste.
> ...


My latest bw was without hcg and ai, it was testalone, my total test was still in good range and my free was abovenormal. What i am trying to say is we can't take this experiment and discredit sq, sq has been working great for so many and it is effective, otherwise dr. Crisler will not endorse it if it didn't work.

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## GFA

> My latest bw was without hcg and ai, it was testalone, my total test was still in good range and my free was abovenormal. What i am trying to say is we can't take this experiment and discredit sq, sq has been working great for so many and it is effective, otherwise dr. Crisler will not endorse it if it didn't work.


Not trying to discredit SQ. I have nothing to gain from that but I do want to provide as much quasi scientific information as possible to the community because many members here read something without asking questions and accept it as fact. 

If you have baseline numbers, SQ test only and IM test only numbers with dosage and frequency, post them and we can keep a list of all members that have tried it. 

Changing up dosage frequency or having ancillaries nullify the test result. We are trying to determine the efficacy of IM vs SQ and that requires many of the variables to be the same. 

For those of you that are doing SQ with HCG /AI, maybe you can stop the HCG/AI 2 weeks before your next BW. That should provide some semi accurate results for SQ.

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## kelkel

I don't see how HCG or an AI nullify things as long as the ONLY change is from IM to SQ and there is no titration change in ancillaries. What's your logic on that aspect GFA?

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## GFA

> I don't see how HCG or an AI nullify things as long as the ONLY change is from IM to SQ and there is no titration change in ancillaries. What's your logic on that aspect GFA?


Because taking an AI + HCG can raise your test levels in a non additive way so you wont know the true impact of test alone. 

For example someone taking test + HCG + AI might have an 800 ng/dL level. 

HCG alone could bring you to 800+ ng/dL and if you change from IM to SQ you might think you are getting the full benefits from the testosterone while in reality its just being metabolized. Meaning you might as well not even take the testosterone. 

The amount of testosterone is not additive by taking HCG + AI + test injections.

For example (these are just example numbers)

HCG mono could bring your test from 300 to 800 (+500 ng/dL)
Test cyp IM mono could bring your test from 300 to 800 (+500 ng/dL)
AI mono could raise your test levels from 300 to 700 (+400 ng/dL)

Taking all of them together will not bring your levels to 1700. You might still be around 800 with all 3. 

So to truly understand the impact of IM vs SQ, you have to only do testosterone. HCG + AI can skew the results due to the non additive nature of taking all 3.

Edit: if I had continued HCG + AI during my experiment, I would have had no idea if it worked or not because my test would have been around 800 and I would have said "Well it seems to work because my test is still 800ish" but in reality it was the HCG and AI doing all the work while the test was being wasted.

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## OLDANDWEAK

I think if you were taking HCG along with the IM injections and dropped the HCG when switching to subQ it would skew the results as well. I believe kelkel was saying that if you are currently running HCG and AI with IM and switched to subQ while still running the HCG and AI it would still be a valid experiment.

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## GFA

> I think if you were taking HCG along with the IM injections and dropped the HCG when switching to subQ it would skew the results as well. I believe kelkel was saying that if you are currently running HCG and AI with IM and switched to subQ while still running the HCG and AI it would still be a valid experiment.


The point I am making is if you are taking HCG and switch from IM to SQ, your test levels could stay the same but the testosterone is not being absorbed and the increase would be due solely to HCG + AI. 

HCG mono can raise your test levels significantly if you are secondary. 

The ideal experiment scenario would be to just take testosterone IM and repeat SQ. 

If you are currently taking HCG + AI and doing SQ injections, dropping HCG and the AI will let you know how much test you are absorbing from the test alone.

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## booku

GFA, what needles/syringes were you using for your sub-Q injections, and what sites did you inject with those needle(s)???

And I could potentially do the test since I started with sub-Q test only. But I feel like sub-Q is working very well for me only after 15 days (5 injections so far). Went from caffeine dependence, taking naps every day, zombie mode, just existing, to 1 small cup of coffee in the morning, no naps, great workouts, fairly good energy throughout the day, and rock hard erections constantly, still very early... and with baseline so low who knows until blood work is run

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## GFA

> GFA, what needles/syringes were you using for your sub-Q injections, and what sites did you inject with those needle(s)???
> 
> And I could potentially do the test since I started with sub-Q test only. But I feel like sub-Q is working very well for me only after 15 days (5 injections so far). Went from caffeine dependence, taking naps every day, zombie mode, just existing, to 1 small cup of coffee in the morning, no naps, great workouts, fairly good energy throughout the day, and rock hard erections constantly, still very early... and with baseline so low who knows until blood work is run


Mostly 25g 5/8" needles in the abdominal area, sometimes quads (pinch skin and inject). 

If it works thats great, thats the purpose of this thread to find out what works and what doesnt. It doesnt work for me. HCG sub-q worked great. I really wished test sub-q worked because I have tons of anxiety each time I inject IM. I inject into the quads and sometimes its perfectly fine but other times the needle doesnt want to go in or i feel my muscles twitch when the needle goes into them and it freaks me out sometimes. I want to try glutes soon.

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## Ratt

Hey GFA,

My results trying SQ injections are much the same as yours. I had been injecting 120mg test cyp IM weekly for the previous 3 years and wanted to try SQ because IM was getting old. I am on a test cyp only protocol and my levels on weekly IM were normally around 750-900. I started doing 50mg e/3.5d SQ back in early Nov and had blood work done mid Dec and found that my levels were 450. 
I have been dealing with nipple pain and sensitivity since starting SQ. My wife noticed last night that my left nipple had a rough feel to it similar to a scab. I have had to take L-dex since starting SQ which helps, but I think I will be going back to IM injections starting this week.
Great post, it is good to know that someone else is having issues with SQ injections.

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## booku

quad injections might not have been sub-Q even with 20% BF, average skin thickness is 2 mm plus the sub-Q thigh layer is on average 10 mm in regular UNTRAINED people ie regular bodyfat levels like yourself. 5/8" needle is 15.875 mm. just a thought, not entirely sure and also depends on your pinching and if you stuck the needle all the way in?

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## GFA

> quad injections might not have been sub-Q even with 20% BF, average skin thickness is 2 mm plus the sub-Q thigh layer is on average 10 mm in regular UNTRAINED people ie regular bodyfat levels like yourself. 5/8" needle is 15.875 mm. just a thought, not entirely sure and also depends on your pinching and if you stuck the needle all the way in?


Maybe 2 of my injections were in the quad due to bruising under the skin. They were subq-q, was done at angle and like I stated previously, I can feel the needle entering the muscle. Rest were in the abs. The last 4 injections were definitely in the abs, sub-q. 

@Ratt, Ill add you to the list. 

*GFA* - 100 mg (1x100mg weekly)
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. 

*Allaaro* - do you have total test levels as well?
Baseline ?
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku*
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

*Ratt*
Baseline ?
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

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## kelkel

GFA I understand your point. Basically to remove all variables before testing, which in essence is probably the best move for this experiment. I just think you would have seen a difference either way.

Still think this thread is excellent GFA! Nice work.

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## GFA

> GFA I understand your point. Basically to remove all variables before testing, which in essence is probably the best move for this experiment. I just think you would have seen a difference either way.
> 
> Still think this thread is excellent GFA! Nice work.


Thanks. Best way to test it would be to keep the frequency and dosage the same. Only change the delivery method. No HCG , no AI. At least 6 weeks each way. 

So far from the members reported, SQ has decreased the absorption rate regardless of frequency of injections.


@booku, 100mg a week IM would get most people around 700-900 ng/dL total test. Im curious to see what your results are. If its under 500, I would try IM and test again.

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## booku

yea that is what I am thinking. If I do end up trying IM, you think I should run IM twice/week and once/week?

for example:
1st 6 weeks: sub-Q twice/week
next 6 weeks: IM twice/week
next 6 weeks: IM once/week

don't really think IM twice/week is really sustainable for 50+ years but would be nice to know the full picture so I could have it as a tool...

----------


## GFA

> yea that is what I am thinking. If I do end up trying IM, you think I should run IM twice/week and once/week?
> 
> for example:
> 1st 6 weeks: sub-Q twice/week
> next 6 weeks: IM twice/week
> next 6 weeks: IM once/week
> 
> don't really think IM twice/week is really sustainable for 50+ years but would be nice to know the full picture so I could have it as a tool...


Dont know what the right answer would be. I hate injecting IM so I keep it to 1x a week but lower dose, more frequent injections would keep your levels more stable. 

I want to experiment with additional injection sites like the delts and glutes. I know people also inject into the calves and biceps. Not sure I would try those areas. 

At your age personally I wouldn't do test injections. I would try HPTA restart first.

----------


## booku

> Dont know what the right answer would be. I hate injecting IM so I keep it to 1x a week but lower dose, more frequent injections would keep your levels more stable. 
> 
> I want to experiment with additional injection sites like the delts and glutes. I know people also inject into the calves and biceps. Not sure I would try those areas. 
> 
> At your age personally I wouldn't do test injections. I would try HPTA restart first.


which needle did you use for IM into the thigh? Could you go into detail on why IM was a big hassle? any tips etc? 

Yes i agree, it was a tough decision to start trt, but i had been feeling so miserable for so long that I jumped at the chance when my endo prescribed 100 mg/week and allowing me to self inj ect (I have heard that some docs refuse to do these two measures). That coupled with the fact that i'm big into bodybuilding as a hobby I went with it. Yea a restart with fertility med5 might have raised it, but I can achieve more optimal levels with TRT once I'm dialed in, and then have the option of blasting etc, and I ruled out the pituitary tumor, testicular pathologies, thyroid issues, etc

have a semen analysis monday. will be very curious about that, think I will be fertile?

----------


## GFA

*GFA* - 100 mg (1x100mg weekly)
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being. 

*Allaaro* - do you have total test levels as well?
Baseline ?
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku*
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)


*Thoughts* - It appears that SQ metabolizes testosterone at a much higher rate vs IM in the subjects that reported data. More data required to make a generalized statement. If anyone has SQ vs IM lab work, please post your story.

----------


## Allaaro

Good work GFA to keep it all organized. I added my baseline and total test in post 32 if you wanted to add it.

----------


## Ratt

GFA,

My baseline before trt was 256 ng/dL (Total test). 
I'm going to go back to IM at 100mg/week and get my blood checked to see where I'm at compared to the same amount injected SQ.

Cheers

----------


## rollingthunder

i had a similar experience, and have previously posted about it. my free testosterone dropped from 24 using an IM protocol (100mg 1xwk) to 9 using a subQ protocol (50mg 2xwk). i have since gone back to IM and will be re-testing in a couple weeks.

----------


## GFA

*GFA*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being. 

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku*
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder*
Baseline ?
SQ *9*  (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (free test) 100mg (1x100)
Summary - No ranges so unable to make accurate statement but from numbers, there was a huge drop in test switching to SQ.

*Thoughts* - It appears that SQ metabolizes testosterone at a much higher rate vs IM in the subjects that reported data regardless of frequency or dosage. If anyone has SQ vs IM lab work, please post your story.

I have yet to see one positive lab result from the community using a controlled study with SQ injections. It does appear SQ injections raise your testosterone levels but a large amount of the testosterone injection is metabolized/discarded via unknown means.

*Cliffs* - SQ doesn't work reliably.

----------


## FRDave

Do you think maybe we just need to wait a bit longer before getting blood work to let it build up, say 8-10 weeks vs the normal 6 weeks?

I currently inject 50mg twice weekly via the subQ method but just started my 3rd week and are new to TRT so I have no experience with the IM technique. Maybe I should hold off on getting blood work till like week 8 or 10 to give it some time?

On another note, I did start HCG at 500IU twice per week exactly 1 month prior to starting test so I will be able to make a fair comparison on my test levels with and without HCG...


Dave

----------


## GFA

> Do you think maybe we just need to wait a bit longer before getting blood work to let it build up, say 8-10 weeks vs the normal 6 weeks?
> 
> I currently inject 50mg twice weekly via the subQ method but just started my 3rd week and are new to TRT so I have no experience with the IM technique. Maybe I should hold off on getting blood work till like week 8 or 10 to give it some time?
> 
> On another note, I did start HCG at 500IU twice per week exactly 1 month prior to starting test so I will be able to make a fair comparison on my test levels with and without HCG...
> 
> 
> Dave


Give it a shot at 8-10 weeks and report back your results. I would stop the HCG at least 4 weeks before the labs though because it will skew the results.

----------


## booku

I know Dr. Crisler mentioned that he and his patients have had great success with sub-Q, based on the blood labs of many patients.

But do you know if any of those patients were on sub-Q test ONLY and not on things like hCG , AI, etc

----------


## GFA

> I know Dr. Crisler mentioned that he and his patients have had great success with sub-Q, based on the blood labs of many patients.
> 
> But do you know if any of those patients were on sub-Q test ONLY and not on things like hCG, AI, etc


He has patients on many different protocols. One of the people that reported unsatisfactory results above is an active patient of his. I question is purity of his work. As i stated many times in this thread, taking too many TRT medications at the same time does not provide a clear picture of the efficacy of SQ vs IM. 

Quite honestly I dont care what Crisler says and others should question his studies, dont blindly take his word as the TRT bible. Its obvious from the lab work reported by users in this thread that SQ is not nearly as effective as IM.

If people want to claim otherwise, back it up with a controlled blood work analysis. 

We all know IM is effective. Yes it can suck at times but it works.

----------


## HRTstudent

Well I just got some blood work and wanted to share it with this relevant thread.

Now, this is not 100% clinical with only 1 variable, but I wasnt out to publish this in any journals  :Smilie:  I just want to feel good!

My results were quite interesting to me:

75mg injected intramuscular twice per week gave me a trough very close to the trough I got on 40mg injected subQ three times per week.

So for me, 150 IM was quite similar to 125mg subQ.

The bloodwork timing was a little different (close enough that I can draw useful conclusions about _my personal T metabolism_), but the numbers told a story that said subQ definitely works for me, and by switching to more frequency and a lower dose, I am able to get the same result testosterone -level-wise.

I do take anastrozole but not HCG . E2 labs on both of the above measurements were almost identical.

----------


## rollingthunder

> *GFA*
> *Rollingthunder*
> Baseline ?
> SQ *9*  (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
> IM *24* (free test) 100mg (1x100)
> Summary - No ranges so unable to make accurate statement but from numbers, there was a huge drop in test switching to SQ.


5/31/2012 test results (IM protocol-100mg/1xwk):
free test:19.1 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:40.8 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)*
*added AI here

7/25/2012 test results (IM protocol-100mg/1xwk):
free test:23.5 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:10.4 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)*
*cut back on AI here

10/10/2012 test results (IM protocol-100mg/1xwk):
free test:24.8 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:21.9 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)

12/18/2012 test results (SQ protocol-50 mg/2xwk):
free test:9.3 pg/ml (7.2-24.0)
estradiol:33.9 pg/ml (7.6-42.6)

now, to clarify, as i did in previous posts, i did change some other components of my HRT protocol at the same time that i switched to subQ - added HCG , dropped the AI. 10/10 blood was drawn approx 24 hrs after injecting. 12/18 blood was drawn at day 4, when i would have taken my next shot subQ.

so i am aware that this is not a good test, because too many variables were changed at the same time.

i still switched back to IM and we re-test in another week or so to check levels.

----------


## GFA

*GFA*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being. 

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku*
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder*
Baseline ?
SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase. 

*HRTStudent*
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

*Thoughts* - It appears that SQ metabolizes testosterone at a much higher rate vs IM in the subjects that reported data regardless of frequency or dosage. If anyone has SQ vs IM lab work, please post your story.

It does appear SQ injections raise your testosterone levels but a large amount of the testosterone injection is metabolized/discarded via unknown means.

*Cliffs* - SQ doesn't work reliably.


*Disclaimer* - Those are my thoughts/cliffs from the lab work provided and doesn't reflect the community. Please feel free to make your own assessment because I could be completely wrong  :Smilie:

----------


## steroid.com 1

I wonder if the OP is a SQ Hyperexcretor? 

He may be okay IM but not SQ...would explain it.

I am the first to say we're all different and nothing is impossible; but I've never heard or read anything like this...anywhere.

People have been injecting drugs SQ for decades for all the right reasons and I've never heard of this reaction of non-absorption. 

If it's not absorbing than where's it going???

He may have some type of adipose tissue condition that's blocking the blood barrier pathways into his blood stream that he's not aware of.

Dr. Eugene Shippen has been using HRT SQ protocols for years now with complete clinical success.

Diabetics have been injecting insulin SQ for decades and I've yet to see where there is insufficient absorption rates to render the protocol useless.

OP - Can you tell us exactly what type of syringes you are using for both IM and SQ and where you drawing back to for both. If you're using the same syringe for both than no need to answer.

Fascinating to be honest.

----------


## GFA

> I wonder if the OP is a SQ Hyperexcretor? 
> 
> He may be okay IM but not SQ...would explain it.
> 
> I am the first to say we're all different and nothing is impossible; but I've never heard or read anything like this...anywhere.
> 
> People have been injecting drugs SQ for decades for all the right reasons and I've never heard of this reaction of non-absorption. 
> 
> If it's not absorbing than where's it going???
> ...


I'm not the only SQ hyperexcretor, several others have reported similar findings.

25g, 5/8" needle used for SQ. 25g, 1" needle for IM. Same syringe used for draw,injection. I don't swap.

Maybe the test is just sitting in my fat and one day will be released in some massive explosion!  :Smilie:  

I'm guessing its being excreted in my urine or sweat.

Btw - HCG SQ works perfectly fine on my body, its just testosterone that doesnt work SQ.

----------


## steroid.com 1

Keep one other thing in mind when it comes to "testosterone metabolism".

Testosterone metabolizes in the blood stream and liver not at the injection site.

The injection administration has no value when it comes to metabolism rates in men.

What does matter is how much Testosterone gets into the blood stream and at what rate resulting in different peak and half life values for men.

The theory behind SQ injections is that it absorbs slightly slower than IM and with more frequent and lower doses a man could bypass the need for an AI similar to the same for men who use a transdermal administration.

So SQ is, in theory, supposed to absorb slower than IM resulting in more stable serum levels.

This suggests two propositions: one is that he must be absorbing at a much more rapid rate and by the time he tests serum levels it's well beyond peak or, two, he's just not absorbing for whatever the reason and the testosterone is just laying pooling in his fat pad.

I asked to well known TRT Doctors to provide me their opinion on the OP's situation...I will share when they respond...should be interesting and hope to learn more in the process.

----------


## steroid.com 1

"I'm guessing its being excreted in my urine or sweat."

If urine it would still have to make it into your blood stream to be metabolized by your liver and then your kidneys for that to happen.

If you were sweating it out you'd see ester stains all over your shirts...like blotches of oil stains.

----------


## HRTstudent

So, I guess if you have a sweaty ass then don't do subQ in the glutes! lol

----------


## steroid.com 1

Ok, so Dr. Gaines responded below. Not as sophisticated explanation as I would like, but maybe it doesn't need to be:

gd,
*"Often times, the quality of the blood vessels in the sq tissue varies. 
Some age management practioners feel that there is a lack of vascularity in the abdominal sq tissue. These guys recommend injection sq over the deltoid or thigh.
I just recommend changing the sq location.
Hope you're doing well."
Rich Gaines*

Ok, so this goes to the one hypothesis I threw out there that possibly the OP has a condition with his adipose tissue that won't allow for proper absorption. Dr. Gaines makes the point and makes a recommendation on what AA Docs suggest as an alternative.

Makes sense to me; if there is a lack of blood vessels in the AT than the pathway for absorption will be compromised.

OP, test other fat pads besides your stomach and see if you don't get a better result...I am willing to bet you just may :Wink:

----------


## GFA

> Ok, so Dr. Gaines responded below. Not as sophisticated explanation as I would like, but maybe it doesn't need to be:
> 
> gd,
> *"Often times, the quality of the blood vessels in the sq tissue varies. 
> Some age management practioners feel that there is a lack of vascularity in the abdominal sq tissue. These guys recommend injection sq over the deltoid or thigh.
> I just recommend changing the sq location.
> Hope you're doing well."
> Rich Gaines*
> 
> ...


So basically don't inject into a beer gut?  :Smilie: 

I might try SQ again but going to stick with IM for awhile to get my levels up. If I do, Ill try in my thigh only.

----------


## GFA

> So, I guess if you have a sweaty ass then don't do subQ in the glutes! lol


Ah so that explains the swamp ass. 

Btw, where are you injecting SQ HRT?

----------


## 38onTRT

> OP, test other fat pads besides your stomach and see if you don't get a better result...I am willing to bet you just may


If the "fat pads" you've been injecting in are not as good as somewhere else on your body, then where is the test going if not absorbing well in the stomach area?

----------


## GFA

> If the "fat pads" you've been injecting in are not as good as somewhere else on your body, then where is the test going if not absorbing well in the stomach area?


Hopefully metabolized or its just sitting in the fat (which is even scarier). 

I don't like the result regardless and switching to IM for awhile. I might do SQ again thigh only to see if that changes the result. The idea of testosterone sitting in my fat doesn't sit well with me.

----------


## HRTstudent

> Ah so that explains the swamp ass. 
> 
> Btw, where are you injecting SQ HRT?


I try to rotate it as much as I can using my abdomen and hip'ish area. I'll use different areas around my belly button such as left, upper/middle/lower, move to right, then move back to left but shift slightly medial, then switch to hip area, etc etc.

Using a 1/2" needle that I inject about 75% of the way in.

----------


## booku

> Hopefully metabolized or its just sitting in the fat (which is even scarier). 
> 
> I don't like the result regardless and switching to IM for awhile. I might do SQ again thigh only to see if that changes the result. The idea of testosterone sitting in my fat doesn't sit well with me.


It dont think it just sits in the fat, its lipid soluble and absorbs into cells via passive diffusion eventually

----------


## dhickey

Not exactly scientific but here's my recent experience.

T - 100mg x 2 IM
HCG - 250IU x 2 SQ
Adex - 1mg x 1
Total T - 1223
E2 - 14.5

T - 60mg x 2 SQ
HCG - 250IU x 2 SQ
Adex - .5mg x 2
Total T - 508
E2 - 36.7

Not sure if I'm going to try 60mg IM or 100mg SQ next. I'm relatively new to TRT, so I'm still trying optimize my program. I'll start a thread with more info.

----------


## hugovsilva

The same type of experiment discussed in another forum. This discussion is more centered in E2 conversion, but total T values are also shown:

"*I had this same issue when I did E3D shots into my delts with 5/8" 31 gauge slin pins. My E2 plummeted to single digits. 

My SubQ E2 seems to be a nice middle-ground between the deep IM shots with 1.5" needles and "shallow" IM injects with 5/8" needles.

My lab results:
During months of deep IM shots E3D
Total T--946ng/dL (range: 240-850)
Estradiol--34ng/dL (range for males: 10-32)
--Both were slightly above this lab's reference ranges but nonetheless I felt like crap during this time

During my SubQ injection months done E3D
Total T--1048ng/dL 
Estradiol--16ng/dL (range for males: 10-32)
--Total T was even higher though my dosage has never been altered and note the drop in E2

During "shallow" IM injects into deltoid months (E3D)
Total T--962ng/dL (range: 240-850)
Estradiol--8ng/dL (range for males: 10-32)
--E2 was very low after trying this method, and I felt just as bad as when my E2 was elevated.

I have no idea why this ends up happening, but it does take experimentation because it will most likely be different for each individual as far as frequency, delivery method, and where to inject that gives them optimal results*"

----------


## booku

hugovsilva, 

what was your injection rotation routine for sub-Q done E3D? and how many mg per week were you on? were you on an AI and/or hCG as well?

----------


## hugovsilva

This example is not my experience. It is taken from a discussion in another forum.

The main discussion was about the difference in E2 conversion of subQ vs IM where it was clear that E2 conversion is less with subq shots.

But is interesting to see how his total T remained almost the same when comparing subq vs IM shot using the same dosage.

----------


## JD250

Good stuff GFA... I would however prefer (personally) to know how much test is needed to hit that sweet spot or whatever your optimum level is while including HCG and AIs. After all I want to be as close to perfect as possible and that WILL include HCG and possibly an AI. My point is that I would think it more useful if you determined that it takes X amount of test to have EVERYTHING in range while on SQ and IM, don't get me wrong I love what you've done and commend you for it I just think to be practical and useful on a personal level one would need to find the sweet spot for both methods including all meds and then compare the amounts it takes to get there.

I'm due for blood work, 50mgs T SQ eod, 250iu HCG eod, .25 mg AI twice a week........ I'll check back

Again, great work on this thread, very interesting stuff.

----------


## bethdoth

Wow being new to HRT you guys have me all messed up. I tried the androgel and the patch, from fall 2011 till fall 2012, it did not absorb. Then my doctor prescribed 100mg Test CyP once a week IM. I did not follow her instructions and did two 50mg SQ injections every 3.5 days (Sunday morning and Wed evening). I did the SQ injections in the left side of my belly fat on wed and right on Sunday with a 25gauge 1/2" syringe I just did my 6 week blood work (Wed morning) and was very disappointed. As you can see from the table of my lab results below 6 weeks only brought me up from 303 to 394. I am doing Test only so I may be a good candidate to do another one man test! I just don't know what to do? IM once a week at 100mg...change sites to my thighs and continue SQ? I don't have that much fat and am not sure how to do SQ in the thigh? 3/8" needle? 
I do see a new doctor next Wed the 30th and he may change everything? But, I would be willing to be another test case for this thread.

----------


## lacey23

I have a similar experience to others, but also changed the frequency of dosing. 

I was originially doing 

65mg E5D IM, with 200iu HCG the 2 days before test shots. 

Test= 720ng/dl

I switch to 

13mg test ED sub Q, and 80iu HCG ED sub Q

Test= 400


So basically the changes were going to sub-q, and increasing the frequency of shots.

----------


## fm2002

> Ok, so Dr. Gaines responded below. Not as sophisticated explanation as I would like, but maybe it doesn't need to be:
> 
> gd,
> *"Often times, the quality of the blood vessels in the sq tissue varies. 
> Some age management practioners feel that there is a lack of vascularity in the abdominal sq tissue. These guys recommend injection sq over the deltoid or thigh.
> I just recommend changing the sq location.
> Hope you're doing well."
> Rich Gaines*
> 
> ...


Somebody (not me as I'm a new member) with some credability should post these results on Crislers forum and see what reaction it gets there???

----------


## fm2002

> Good stuff GFA... I would however prefer (personally) to know how much test is needed to hit that sweet spot or whatever your optimum level is while including HCG and AIs. After all I want to be as close to perfect as possible and that WILL include HCG and possibly an AI. My point is that I would think it more useful if you determined that it takes X amount of test to have EVERYTHING in range while on SQ and IM, don't get me wrong I love what you've done and commend you for it I just think to be practical and useful on a personal level one would need to find the sweet spot for both methods including all meds and then compare the amounts it takes to get there.
> 
> I'm due for blood work, 50mgs T SQ eod, 250iu HCG eod, .25 mg AI twice a week........ I'll check back
> 
> Again, great work on this thread, very interesting stuff.


Great point ! For me Testosterone is very cheap and I for one wouldn't mind injecting more or more often SubQ if I could depend on the results.

----------


## Trific

bump

----------


## booku

> bump


having been doing sub-Q since the start of my therapy (12/29/2012) and have appt scheduled for 2/27 and blood work most likely March 1st.

50 mg injections twice per week, Testosterone Enanthate ONLY, injected into thighs, abdominal area, and will be trying out the glutes here soon

----------


## clarkster

Just switched to Sub Q 50mg. twice a week about 3 weeks ago. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

----------


## BuzzardMarinePumper

My BW will be very interesting . Last BW was 12/28/12

Hemoglobin was high level of normal 
RBC was high level of normal 

I gave blood about Jan 15th

Have been doing HCG 3 x AW per sticky at top of page .25 mL M,W,F. 

E2 normal range high was 29, and mine was 66
Dr. prescribed no AI's and I have been on .25 mg 3 x AW for 3 weeks of Liquidex

Testosterone script was for 1 mL EOW and from 10/29/12 to 12/28/12
I was on off SubQ and IM every 3.5 days per info from forum = .25 mL every 3.5 days

My Test went from 78 to 468. 
Free Testosterone was .1 above normal range
Doing mixed IM and SubQ every 3.5 days
E2 and RBC went high
Testosterone Cypionate only

With supplements of:

DHEA
D3
B12 1mL injection weekly
Saw Palmetto Grass
Fish Oil
Omega 3's
Magnesium
Zinc
Milk Thistle
Whey Protein

Diet target 2000 good calories aday and 6 ingestion times about every 3 hrs  :Smilie: 

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
Since the 12/28/12 BW I have been all SubQ every 3.5 days and dropped amount to .20 of Testosterone Cypionate every 3.5 day with thoughts on high E2 and for 5 weeks no AI's 

I have maintained .20 SubQ every 3.5 days since BW was reread on 1/7/13 from BW of 12/28/12 and will maintain .20 every 3.5 days until BW on or about Feb 28th

Approximately 2 weeks until next BW and stopping HCG and will cut back on AI's to .30 weekly until BW results can be posted in my old thread.

Personal note: a week after introduction of HCG world was great and AI's introduced about the same time I started having good energy level and desire to hit the gym 2 weeks after introduction. Also have really been working on Diet and added HGH Frag 176-191 Belly fat cell peptide into research and IT WORKS ! weight at BW 12/28/12 was 245 now 1/13/13 235 lbs and loving life.

Oh I tip my hat to GDevine for the cialis tip pumps at gym are unreal and vascularity eve shows on a 53 year old man that does not have low BF% but not FA _ _ ! Good pumps at gym, vascularity and wood like no tomorrow it is the real deal a must have for TRT and a healthy life style !

Starting to lowtestosterone.com as soon as Sugar Hill GA. Office opens in March 

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
My Dr. is not educated in TRT nor am I still learning only been on TRT since 10/29/12 ! Only thing my Dr. is good for is 1 mL of Testosterone Cypionate EOW Script and a place to get BW done and covered by insurance !

I have had to ask a lot of dumb question on this forum to get answers ; and I really want to thank Kel, Vettester, Lobyst, & fit2bold, they have been very tempered and I would not be feeling as good as I do without them it is a Marathon not a sprint and more is not better ! 

* A word to a lot of you newer than me guys I am 53 and have a lot of health issues and all the TRT in the world will not fix you if you don't get that diet dialed in at the same time ! From a 53 year old TRT man in the effort to obtain balance in my hormones !*

----------


## HRTstudent

Good to see you're getting a new doc Buzzard!  :Big Grin:  Even better to read how much better you're feeling!

----------


## bigboy67

> The point I am making is if you are taking HCG and switch from IM to SQ, your test levels could stay the same but the testosterone is not being absorbed and the increase would be due solely to HCG + AI. 
> 
> HCG mono can raise your test levels significantly if you are secondary. 
> 
> The ideal experiment scenario would be to just take testosterone IM and repeat SQ. 
> 
> If you are currently taking HCG + AI and doing SQ injections, dropping HCG and the AI will let you know how much test you are absorbing from the test alone.


This isnt making sense to me. IT is plenty valid to go from hcg/ai/IM to hcg/ai/SubQ... as long as his amounts of hcg and AI werent changed when he switched from IM to subQ, the difference in Test would be from the Testosterone alone. How much Test was added by the AI/hcg would be irrelevant because the same amounts were used in both cases. 

And you shouldn't tell people they can't conceive if on long term TRT, it simply isn't true. Even hardcore AAS users have plenty of kids, it just doesnt work that way. Not saying that to be combative, just dont want some 22 year old kid thinking that because he is on TRT that his girlfriend can pull the goalie, he may be in for a rude awakening!

I also switched from twice weekly of 50mg Test IM to twice weekly 50mg Test SubQ. I have been running it this way for a full two months, and will be getting bloods done soon, so I will update my thread accordingly. Interested to see how it has been working. I would also love to know WHY some guys do well SubQ and others don't, too bad our government won't do any tests on Testosterone so we can actually have good peer reviewed scientific info

----------


## GFA

> This isnt making sense to me. IT is plenty valid to go from hcg /ai/IM to hcg/ai/SubQ... as long as his amounts of hcg and AI werent changed when he switched from IM to subQ, the difference in Test would be from the Testosterone alone. How much Test was added by the AI/hcg would be irrelevant because the same amounts were used in both cases. 
> 
> And you shouldn't tell people they can't conceive if on long term TRT, it simply isn't true. Even hardcore AAS users have plenty of kids, it just doesnt work that way. Not saying that to be combative, just dont want some 22 year old kid thinking that because he is on TRT that his girlfriend can pull the goalie, he may be in for a rude awakening!
> 
> I also switched from twice weekly of 50mg Test IM to twice weekly 50mg Test SubQ. I have been running it this way for a full two months, and will be getting bloods done soon, so I will update my thread accordingly. Interested to see how it has been working. I would also love to know WHY some guys do well SubQ and others don't, too bad our government won't do any tests on Testosterone so we can actually have good peer reviewed scientific info


It makes complete sense that when you do a controlled study, you have a clear control point. By introducing variables like an AI or HCG, that clouds the results. 

Ill give you an example.


You can take 250iu HCG 3x a week and achieve a 700+ total test. (assuming the user is secondary and receptive to HCG)
You can take 100mg Test 1x a week and achieve a 700+ total test.
You can take an AI and raise your test a few hundred points. 

Taking them at the same time will not bring you to 1600+ total test. Its not cumulative. 

If you were going to do a scientific study of the efficacy of anything, you dont have multiple things you test at the same time otherwise it would be difficult to determine if it actually works. 

Regardless, if you want to see how your body responds and have an exact picture of IM vs SQ, you should only use Test during the trial period. 

100mg test SQ vs 100mg test IM 

My body did not respond to SQ in the belly region. I dropped from almost 800 total test (IM 100mg test week x1) to 300 (SQ 100mg test week x1). 
Injection was on Sunday, labs done on wednesday. The only variable was injection method (SQ vs IM).

Here is the real question, where is the Test I injected? Is it just sitting in some pool of fat waiting to be released one day or did my body somehow metabolize it. 

I have since switched back to IM and just had new BW done this week. Ill post up my results as soon as I have them.

I dont recall telling people that taking test will make them sterile but at 22, why risk it if you want to have kids one today? I would explore other options like HCG which doesn't shut down your HPTA and encourages natural testosterone production assuming the person is secondary. 

I am considering adding HCG back to my protocol but I want to see where my next lab brings me, then I will adjust accordingly. I was struggling for awhile to get my hemoglobin under control (was as high as 20!) but now its down in the 13s after my last double red donation. 

PS - I really wished SQ worked because IM can be painful at times. I did my last injection in the delt and it wasnt so bad. Sore for a few days but went in easy. 

The problem I have is people are so quick to switch to a method and repeat it as the TRT bible without even trying it to see how it impacts their body or says, wow this is amazing but at the same time they take 10 other ancillaries. Is SQ still effective? How can you tell? Maybe its one of the 10 other drugs you are taking. 

The only way to know for sure is to do a controlled study on yourself. Otherwise you could be injecting your test and achieve the same results as pouring it into the drain.

PSS - If you look at most of the people that have tried both in this thread, their results have not been very positive. I might try SQ again in the thigh (less fat) and post up a comparison. For now I just want to be normal.

----------


## GFA

*GFA*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being. 

*clarkster*
Base *175* (Total test)
SQ *580* (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
IM *781* 200mg week

*rhoag*
Baseline 304
SQ *394* ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

*dhickey*
Baseline ?
SQ *508* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
IM *1223* ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250 iu HCG SQ x2

*lacy23*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *400* ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM *720* ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku*
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder*
Baseline ?
SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase. 

*HRTStudent*
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

*Added a few more people* - Here are the results so far. Draw your own conclusions.

----------


## kelkel

GFA this really has been one of the more interesting threads here. You put a lot of work and thought into it and it is appreciated by many.

----------


## alpinist

Thanks for putting all that together.

Are there any good ideas about where the 'extra' sub q T ends up?

Also, I wonder if somewhere in here there should be a discussion about pin length, injection site, and BF? For example, I'm using 25 gauge x 5/8" into my glutes and I have about 12% BF. I've considered it IM but I wonder if sometimes it sorta ends being something in between IM and SuqQ?

----------


## kelkel

Always good to have a variety of pins on hand. I mostly just use 27ga .5" everywhere anymore but it depends on the site your injecting and your BF%.

----------


## GFA

> GFA this really has been one of the more interesting threads here. You put a lot of work and thought into it and it is appreciated by many.


Thanks Kel. Im just trying to get to the bottom of the whole SQ vs IM debate and figure out the optimal delivery method. Is it less effective than IM and under what circumstances? Is there a peak dosage SQ before it becomes ineffective? What is that amount and why should it matter? 

I keep hearing people say to inject smaller amounts not only to maintain a stable test level but because larger injections SQ get wasted? Test is test and has a half life regardless of delivery method. Why should it matter if you inject 50mg or 100mg SQ? It still has a half life of 6 days. 

What we have determined so far is, belly fat injections are not effective. 

What we still do not know is, what happens to that test you injected if the body doesn't absorb it?

Does injecting into the thigh or less fatty areas SQ improve absorption rates?

If so, by how much?

Why cant you injection more than x mg SQ? What is that x?

What is the optimal frequency and dosage to maintain high levels of absorption and stable e2 levels?

Too many unknowns and until many of these questions are answered, I would have a hard time recommending this delivery method to others. 

Rhoag is the perfect example as to why. He started with SQ and his TT basically didnt move. This is the same thing I experienced via SQ. 

*rhoag*
Baseline *304*
SQ *394* ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

*GFA*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)

----------


## clarkster

For myself, again I don't have all my BW as I didn't know what to ask for, but now I do, I was hoping that SQ was gonna be the way to go. When I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once a week, my levels were ***, but I was NOT using hCG . After finding this site, I switched to SQ 50mg. 2x weekly and added 250ius hCG M-W-F and my T levels dropped to 505. I thought my levels would remain close to what they were now that I added the hCG. My pre TRT levels were 175. Was it the hCG that at least kept my levels at 505 or was it the hCG? Until insurance will allow me to get BW it might be difficult to answer. It does seem that some of the TRT veterans here are pinning either both IM and SQ or exclusively IM. I have no problem pinning IM, did it for years, but when reading about scar tissue it made me think about going SQ.

----------


## GFA

> For myself, again I don't have all my BW as I didn't know what to ask for, but now I do, I was hoping that SQ was gonna be the way to go. When I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once a week, my levels were ***, but I was NOT using hCG. After finding this site, I switched to SQ 50mg. 2x weekly and added 250ius hCG M-W-F and my T levels dropped to 580. I thought my levels would remain close to what they were now that I added the hCG. My pre TRT levels were 175. Was it the hCG that at least kept my levels at 580 or was it the hCG? Until insurance will allow me to get BW it might be difficult to answer. It does seem that some of the TRT veterans here are pinning either both IM and SQ or exclusively IM. I have no problem pinning IM, did it for years, but when reading about scar tissue it made me think about going SQ.


Do you have your values clarkster? What was your levels @200mg a week? I would guess well over 1000 TT. Where were you injecting SQ?

So adding 250iu hcg 3x a week and switching to SQ your test levels dropped to 580 from what ? But yes adding hCG would make it hard to determine if the was the Test or hCG keeping your levels in the normal range. Unfortunately you will not know but I would guess it was the hCG keeping your levels up, not the SQ test injections if you are secondary. 

Base *175*
SQ *580* - 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
IM ? 200mg week

When I was doing 100mg test weekly + hcg like this, my TT was 1100 using IM injections, 580 seems low for both test + hcg.

One other question, are you switching back to 100mg a week IM along with HCG? This will let you know if IM is better.

Prediction - if you switch back to IM, your TT will jump up a few hundred points.

PS - this is what i mean by too many variables  :Smilie:  You went from 200mg test to 100mg with 750 iu HCG. 

But now you have a new baseline to test from, 100mg SQ + HCG to 100mg IM + HCG. Still not perfect from a control standpoint but better than nothing.

----------


## GFA

*GFA*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being. 

*clarkster*
Base *175* (Total test)
SQ *580* (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
IM ? 200mg week
Summary - too many things changed but TT still seems low for hcg + 100mg test. Waiting for results @200mg test a week and hopefully 100mg + hcg IM.

*rhoag*
Baseline 304
SQ *394* ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

*dhickey*
Baseline ?
SQ *508* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
IM *1223* ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250 iu HCG SQ x2

*lacy23*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *400* ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM *720* ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku*
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ *920* (Total Test) 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder*
Baseline ?
SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase. 

*HRTStudent*
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

*Here are the results so far. Draw your own conclusions.*

----------


## booku

booku here.

Update after 9 weeks SQ:

reference my injection chart for needle location/length/gauge
http://forums.steroid.com/attachment...2&d=1362967860

Total testosterone : 920 ng/dl (310-1010 ng/dl)
Free testosterone: 233.1 pg/ml (47-244 pg/ml)
SHBG: 29 nmol/L (13-71 nmol/L)
Free estradiol, serum: 0.65 pg/ml, adult males 0.2-1.5 pg/ml
Estradiol, serum: 21 pg/ml, adult males 8-35 pg/ml

Seems like i am one of the few that it is working well for??? I did stop injecting in the abdomen after the 1st 4 weeks and injected in the glutes/thighs the last 5 weeks, so yea, take that for what its worth, who knows.

mind you, i am 23 and fairly low BF (<15% but greater than 10%)

----------


## GFA

> booku here.
> 
> Update after 9 weeks SQ:
> 
> reference my injection chart for needle location/length/gauge
> http://forums.steroid.com/attachment...2&d=1362967860
> 
> Total testosterone : 920 ng/dl (310-1010 ng/dl)
> Free testosterone: 233.1 pg/ml (47-244 pg/ml)
> ...


Finally a positive result! Are you taking any other ancillaries? (AI, HCG )?

I might try SQ again in thigh after I get my BW in order.

----------


## booku

> Finally a positive result! Are you taking any other ancillaries? (AI, HCG )?
> 
> I might try SQ again in thigh after I get my BW in order.


nope just 100 mg test per week.

----------


## Trific

> Finally a positive result! Are you taking any other ancillaries? (AI, HCG )?
> 
> I might try SQ again in thigh after I get my BW in order.


Booku has low BF% so his pins might really have been IM after he quit using the stomach or at least very close. Plus he is fairly young and active. I think these are all variables to consider.

http://www.relion.com/diabetes/syringes

----------


## GFA

> nope just 100 mg test per week.


That is encouraging news. Ill ask my doc for another LW script and try again SQ in thigh to see if that makes a difference. The other variable here is your BF%. Your BF% is pretty low. 

I would really like to switch to SQ. Much easier than IM. Hopefully it works next go around.

----------


## GFA

> Booku has low BF% so his pins might really have been IM after he quit using the stomach or at least very close. Plus he is fairly young and active. I think these are all variables to consider.


Yep, noted. Thats why I will try again and be the lab rat but next time only inject in the thigh SQ. The rollercoaster ride I go on for you guys!

----------


## Trific

> Yep, noted. Thats why I will try again and be the lab rat but next time only inject in the thigh SQ. The rollercoaster ride I go on for you guys!


  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## clarkster

> Yep, noted. Thats why I will try again and be the lab rat but next time only inject in the thigh SQ. The rollercoaster ride I go on for you guys!


That's the question I've always had, if you pin in your thigh with a slin pin, isn't it at that point an IM pin vs. SQ? When I first heard about pinning SQ, I heard to pin in your vastus lateralis. It wasn't until I saw the Dr. Crisler vid that I decided to pin in my stomach.

----------


## clarkster

> Do you have your values clarkster? What was your levels @200mg a week? I would guess well over 1000 TT. Where were you injecting SQ?
> [_/U]I was injecting IM 200mgs. one time a week and my T level was ***. And NO hCG._
> 
> So adding 250iu hcg 3x a week and switching to SQ your test levels dropped to 580 from what ? But yes adding hCG would make it hard to determine if the was the Test or hCG keeping your levels in the normal range. Unfortunately you will not know but I would guess it was the hCG keeping your levels up, not the SQ test injections if you are secondary. 
> _That was my thought as well, was it the hCG keeping my levels up or the Test?_
> 
> Base *175*
> SQ *580* - 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
> IM *** 200mg week
> ...


I was pinning 200mg. Test IM once a week with no hCG and my T level was ***.
And that's what i was wondering as well was it the hCG that was keeping my levels up or was in the Test?

----------


## clarkster

For some reason it won't let me put my T level but it was *** or Seven Hundred Eighty when I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once weekly. After reading Booku's post I might go back to pinning SQ in my thigh and see how that works and if not, I'll think I'll at least mix in IM.

----------


## GFA

Just did my first SQ injection 60mg into the thigh using a 31g slin needle 5/16" (.3cc). Completely painless. Plan is to do 60mg 2x a week (120mg a week total).

Ill keep everyone posted. I have another doc visit in a month, will ask him for another script for LW. Ill also share these findings with him, my doc is really cool and would be interested in it. 

He treats a few people that are hypogonadal and many of them were using Androgel . I was the first using test-cyp. I explained to him how I tried the gel and it didnt work, he switched his patients over to t-cyp too after they were non responders to the gel. 

Im curious of HCG has any impact on hemoglobin levels, ever since I stopped the HCG my hemo has been perfect. 

Anyways stay tuned! Does SQ work in fatter people is the question we hope to answer here  :Smilie:

----------


## GFA

> For some reason it won't let me put my T level but it was *** or Seven Hundred Eighty when I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once weekly. After reading Booku's post I might go back to pinning SQ in my thigh and see how that works and if not, I'll think I'll at least mix in IM.


Ya wierd, the forum is blocking 781-1. (seven hundred eighty is blocked). I just tried adding it to the results and I was also blocked. I put in 781 instead for you.

----------


## GFA

Lab results in

120mg test IM 1x weekly, injection on sunday morning, lab taken at 2pm on wednesday. E2 is high, might need to take something to manage it.

Test	Low	Normal	High	Reference Range	Units
Estradiol 42.6 7.6-42.6	pg/mL

Testosterone , Serum

Test	Low	Normal	High	Reference Range	Units
Testosterone, Serum *923* 348-1197	ng/dL

*GFA*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM *923* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)


Here is my full CBC - hemo and hematocrit low normal. Guess thats what 10 donations in a year will do to you  :Smilie:  

Test	Low	Normal	High	Reference Range	Units
Rdw 15.5	12.3-15.4	%
Mch	22.0 26.6-33.0	pg
Mcv	69 79-97	fL
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.6 0.1-1.0	x10E3/uL
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.0 1.8-7.8	x10E3/uL
Rbc 5.74 4.14-5.80	x10E6/uL
Neutrophils 50 40-74	%
Hemoglobin *12.6* 12.6-17.7	g/dL
Mchc 31.7 31.5-35.7	g/dL
Wbc 5.9 4.0-10.5	x10E3/uL
Lymphs (Absolute) 2.1 0.7-4.5	x10E3/uL
Eos 2 0-7	%
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 0.0-0.1	x10E3/uL
Immature Granulocytes 0 0-2	%
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 0.0-0.4	x10E3/uL
Platelets 349 140-415	x10E3/uL
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2	x10E3/uL
Hematocrit *39.8* 37.5-51.0	%
Monocytes 10 4-13	%
Lymphs 37 14-46	%
Basos 1 0-3	%

----------


## Rusty11

Ok. I don't inject, but have been reading this thread. Quick question/comment... if recent bw shows IM is working better for you, why try sq again? I thought that wasn't as effective for you. Also regarding e2, these ranges indicate it's the regular test (geared more for women). It might be premature to say your e2 is high until you get the sensitive test. With this same test, I was 48 one month and 24 a couple months later. Nothing changed in my protocol. I got myself the sensitve assay and I was at 35. I dunno...some ppl think regular e2 test is close enough. Others say it's useless. Just don't want to see another guy take an AI, only to come crashing down because they really didn't need it. Good luck, bud.

----------


## Trific

> Anyways stay tuned! Does SQ work in fatter people is the question we hope to answer here


You could add age and weight and/or BF% for more data to chew through...

----------


## GFA

> Ok. I don't inject, but have been reading this thread. Quick question/comment... if recent bw shows IM is working better for you, why try sq again? I thought that wasn't as effective for you. Also regarding e2, these ranges indicate it's the regular test (geared more for women). It might be premature to say your e2 is high until you get the sensitive test. With this same test, I was 48 one month and 24 a couple months later. Nothing changed in my protocol. I got myself the sensitve assay and I was at 35. I dunno...some ppl think regular e2 test is close enough. Others say it's useless. Just don't want to see another guy take an AI, only to come crashing down because they really didn't need it. Good luck, bud.


A few reasons I would rather do SQ
1. easier to inject, I have 30+ years of TRT before I die, Id like it to be as easy as possible. SQ is completely painless. IM can hurt like a bitch if you hit a nerve or after awhile scar tissue builds up.
2. academic, as we have already seen, SQ injections for testosterone is not reliable, why? hopefully as a community we can figure it out. So far it seems where you inject makes a difference due to BF levels. 

If we can determine the optimal delivery method, we can do something the govt will/has not. 




> You could add age and weight and/or BF% for more data to chew through...


Yep. Hopefully injecting into my thigh will yield better results. If not, I can always fall back to IM.

----------


## GFA

*Adding in Age and Weight/BF if you have it.* 

*GFA* - 210 lbs, 41 years old ~20-25% Bf?
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM *923* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being. 

*badrad123* - 46 years old, ~22% BF
Base *195* (Total test)
SQ *375* (Total test) 80 mg test (40mg 2x a week)
IM ?
Summary - Most recent test of 375 TT seems to indicate badrad is not responsive to belly SQ injections. 

*clarkster*
Base *175* (Total test)
SQ *580* (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
IM *781* 200mg week
Summary - too many things changed but TT still seems low for hcg + 100mg test. 

*rhoag*
Baseline 304
SQ *394* ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

*dhickey*
Baseline ?
SQ *508* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
IM *1223* ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250 iu HCG SQ x2

*lacy23*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *400* ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM *720* ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku* - 23 years old, ~10-15% BF
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ *920* (Total Test) 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - Responds well to SQ injections. Age, activity or BF levels play a role? Booku switched from belly to thigh injections. 

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder*
Baseline ?
SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase. 

*HRTStudent*
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

*Summary* - It appears injecting into belly fat for people with higher BF% is ineffective for SQ. Additional testing is required. Of all the respondents, only one has seen positive results using SQ, booku. He is 23 with approximately 10-15% BF and injected into a low fat area of the body, thigh. Given his low BF levels, its possible the SQ injections were actually IM.

GFA is attempting SQ again into thigh only with 60mg test x2 a week (120mg a week total).

----------


## badrad123

I would like to add my info to this trial. I've been doing SubQ for the past 6 months. I started out injecting 2x a week and then moved to e3d to help lower my e2. However, I only inject around 37-38mg per injection. I'm still trying to dial in my dose and injection frequency but overall it seems to work. 

Oh yea, I inject in the stomach. My most recent tests showed a total t level of 975 18 hours after injecting and then 375 on the morning of the next injection (still trying to figure out why the huge swing). I tried IM but my body at the time couldn't handle the quick spike in T. 

My baseline T level was around 195 at time of starting and as low as 135 ( high stress period at work).

Based on reading this thread I think I might try injecting in my thigh and see if the results are better. No HCG in the past 3 months and no AI in the past 4 weeks. Before I was on .25mg liquidex a week taken EOD. This lowered my e2 from 39 to 20.

----------


## GFA

> I would like to add my info to this trial. I've been doing SubQ for the past 6 months. I started out injecting 2x a week and then moved to e3d to help lower my e2. However, I only inject around 37-38mg per injection. I'm still trying to dial in my dose and injection frequency but overall it seems to work. 
> 
> Oh yea, I inject in the stomach. My most recent tests showed a total t level of 975 18 hours after injecting and then 375 on the morning of the next injection (still trying to figure out why the huge swing). I tried IM but my body at the time couldn't handle the quick spike in T. 
> 
> My baseline T level was around 195 at time of starting and as low as 135 ( high stress period at work).
> 
> Based on reading this thread I think I might try injecting in my thigh and see if the results are better. No HCG in the past 3 months and no AI in the past 4 weeks. Before I was on .25mg liquidex a week taken EOD. This lowered my e2 from 39 to 20.


Your numbers don't make sense. Usually peak is 48-72 hours after injection. Maybe you had a bad test? Do you have more than 1 test result? What kind of testosterone are you injecting?

What is your age and bf%?

----------


## booku

Good summary for my piece of the experiment. Don't forget though that two of my weeks used the glutes with a 3/8" needle, which is definitely SQ. The problem with SQ for me is that I can't seem to figure out how to prevent the little hard nodules that develop. Not only that, they end up itching pretty bad until about the next injection (3-4 days). I feel like I did NOT get the nodules initially when I went in the abdomen and just pulled straight out and didnt mess with or massage or touch the area. Who knows. Anyone have a good SQ technique that prevents nodules?

Also, I agree that my thigh injects might have been shallow IM, which kind of clouds my results. I mean when I flex my leg, I can see full quad separation but theres no veins showing or anything

----------


## GFA

> Good summary for my piece of the experiment. Don't forget though that two of my weeks used the glutes with a 3/8" needle, which is definitely SQ. The problem with SQ for me is that I can't seem to figure out how to prevent the little hard nodules that develop. Not only that, they end up itching pretty bad until about the next injection (3-4 days). I feel like I did NOT get the nodules initially when I went in the abdomen and just pulled straight out and didnt mess with or massage or touch the area. Who knows. Anyone have a good SQ technique that prevents nodules?


You can always try belly injections again and post up your labs  :Smilie:  Maybe it will work for you given your low BF levels. 

Do you pinch then push the needle in? How quickly do you inject?

----------


## badrad123

Yes, I have my most recent tests on the day of injection which was 375 and E2 of 20. Yea, I was wondering about that 975 score. I just figured it was due to the fact it was taken 18 hours after my injection.

I'm 46 years old , 6'0" and BF is around 22%. I'll try to find my last blood test and post it.

Oh, I'm using Test Cyp.

Thanks!

----------


## GFA

> Yes, I have my most recent tests on the day of injection which was 375 and E2 of 20. Yea, I was wondering about that 975 score. I just figured it was due to the fact it was taken 18 hours after my injection.
> 
> I'm 46 years old , 6'0" and BF is around 22%. I'll try to find my last blood test and post it.
> 
> Oh, I'm using Test Cyp.
> 
> Thanks!


Ya that sounds more accurate. Seems you are also not responding to to SQ injections in the belly. Try in the thigh see if that is any better.

Btw, your SQ test result is almost identical to mine. I was 366 TT but that was @100mg a week 1 injection. Labs take 3 days after injection.

----------


## booku

> You can always try belly injections again and post up your labs  Maybe it will work for you given your low BF levels. 
> 
> Do you pinch then push the needle in? How quickly do you inject?


i don't pinch, and I do a 1/4 cc in about 30 seconds to 1 minute

----------


## LT75

Maybe it absorbs in fat like androgel . Directions are to use the back of the arms now instead of the belly. Less fat on the arms. Dr Crisler even said to use the forearms for better absorption. So fat does play a role in it. I am thinking about switching from IM to SQ. I am watching and reading what is going on here before I make my mind up..

----------


## GFA

*Adding in Age and Weight/BF if you have it.* 

*GFA* - 210 lbs, 41 years old ~20-25% Bf?
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) 
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM *923* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being. 

*badrad123* - 46 years old, ~22% BF
Base *195* (Total test)
SQ *375* (Total test) 80 mg test (40mg 2x a week)
IM ?
Summary - Most recent test of 375 TT seems to indicate badrad is not responsive to belly SQ injections. 

*clarkster*
Base *175* (Total test)
SQ *505* (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
IM *781* 200mg week
Summary - too many things changed but TT still seems low for hcg + 100mg test. 

*rhoag*
Baseline 304
SQ *394* ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

*dhickey*
Baseline ?
SQ *508* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
IM *1223* ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250 iu HCG SQ x2

*lacy23*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *400* ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM *720* ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku* - 23 years old, ~10-15% BF
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ *920* (Total Test) 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - Responds well to SQ injections. Age, activity or BF levels play a role? Booku switched from belly to thigh injections. 

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder*
Baseline ?
SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase. 

*HRTStudent*
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

*Summary* - It appears injecting into belly fat for people with higher BF% is ineffective for SQ. Additional testing is required. Of all the respondents, only one has seen positive results using SQ, booku. He is 23 with approximately 10-15% BF and injected into a low fat area of the body, thigh. Given his low BF levels, its possible the SQ injections were actually IM.

GFA is attempting SQ again into thigh only with 60mg test x2 a week (120mg a week total).

----------


## badrad123

Attached are my most recent blood levels. Thanks.

----------


## badrad123

> Ya that sounds more accurate. Seems you are also not responding to to SQ injections in the belly. Try in the thigh see if that is any better.
> 
> Btw, your SQ test result is almost identical to mine. I was 366 TT but that was @100mg a week 1 injection. Labs take 3 days after injection.


Yea, I'm going to try in the thigh and then test again after 6 weeks. I'll keep the dose the same.

----------


## Allaaro

Appreciate all the work being done in this thread. I'm getting some new bloodwork this week on IM 190/week so I'll make up an update when get it.

----------


## GFA

> Appreciate all the work being done in this thread. I'm getting some new bloodwork this week on IM 190/week so I'll make up an update when get it.


Hopefully we can get a few more people to try with SQ into low fat areas (delts, quads) and see if that makes the difference. This will be my last attempt at SQ. Really hope it works because a lifetime of IM is not that appealing.

----------


## HRTstudent

> Hopefully we can get a few more people to try with SQ into low fat areas (delts, quads) and see if that makes the difference. This will be my last attempt at SQ. Really hope it works because a lifetime of IM is not that appealing.


If its any consolation there is an oral testosterone in clinical trials right now. If it goes quickly, it could be out in a few years.

----------


## fm2002

What I'm about to write about is NOT supported by BW's, but instead empirical evidence. Backed up by over 7 years of CLOSELY monitoring everything I take and when I take it.

Some may laugh, but IMO my penis is a great indicator of my Estrogen and/or Testosterone balance. If one or both are out of whack than my penis will tell me. I will also add acne as another indicator.

I was one that was very excited to hear that Dr. Crisler was getting good results with Sub Q testosterone injections. I for one cannot self administer IM injections. So I thought I would give it a try. For 1 month I self administered sub Q my Test E injections. The total amount was the same as when I was doing IM. I injected in my thighs and stomach fat. I also maintained the amount of Arimidex (.25mg every 3rd day).

After the 1st week I started to notice differences. Slight loss of strength in the gym. By week 2 I started to loose my libido. My erections were about 80%. Weeks 3 and 4 found severe acne and my erections even further diminished. Loss of strength in the gym of 10-15%. At this point I stopped Sub Q.

I write this now as I'm finally back to where I was before I started Sub Q. It's taken 4 weeks to accomplish this.

I realize that I didn't do BW's before during and after. I also think one could question maintaining the same amount of Arimidex after changing to Sub Q. That said I'm confident and convinced that sub Q for me is not the way to go.

----------


## GFA

Started my 2nd week of thigh SQ injections .3ml (60mg) x2 a week. So far dont notice any difference in libido. My next doc appointment is on the 12th of April, Ill ask for a script for LW again and report back my findings. Will wait till I have done at least 4 weeks of SQ before getting labs. 

No HCG or ancillaries are being taken to keep the results as controlled as possible. The only difference is the frequency.

----------


## junk2222yard

> It appears injecting into belly fat for people with higher BF% is ineffective for SQ. Additional testing is required. Of all the respondents, only one has seen positive results using SQ, booku.


I dunno if I should insert myself into this thread, because I only have SQ results, and I also only have done it with hCG and and AI. But if that doesn't disqualify me, I appear to be an exception to this.

Bodyfat 28% or so, injecting 60mg T into belly fat every 3 days (140mg/wk) with hCG 250iu the day before and .25mg Adex same day as Test injection was bringing me over the upper range in Total T and Free T. I actually have reduced my Test because of this to 56mg every 3 days (130mg/wk) but haven't got retested yet.

Anyhoo, I haven't read all 4 pages of this thread, but thought I would share my experience based on the statement I quoted.

----------


## booku

> I dunno if I should insert myself into this thread, because I only have SQ results, and I also only have done it with hCG and and AI. But if that doesn't disqualify me, I appear to be an exception to this.
> 
> Bodyfat 28% or so, injecting 60mg T into belly fat every 3 days (140mg/wk) with hCG 250iu the day before and .25mg Adex same day as Test injection was bringing me over the upper range in Total T and Free T. I actually have reduced my Test because of this to 56mg every 3 days (130mg/wk) but haven't got retested yet.
> 
> Anyhoo, I haven't read all 4 pages of this thread, but thought I would share my experience based on the statement I quoted.


Yea, the reason we like to see results with testosterone only is because we don't know how much hcg and the test are EACH raising your testosterone level. But, if you have labs with hcg with IM versus hcg with SQ that is valid and we can compare test levels. Maybe you should get retested after the pharmacokinetics of the drug @ 130 mg/week SQ settle out. Then take 6-8 weeks of IM and see what the difference is, keeping all other variables the same. Then you know, for your body type and situation, what works best for YOU.

----------


## qkcam

GFA

_Answer: I wanted to see what impact sub-q had on my RBCs and test levels, in addition sub-q is much easier than IM. I know from experience HCG is effective sub-q so I was hoping injecting test sub-q would give me similar results._

curious if this had an impact on the RBC ? i didn't see it listed.. thanks!

----------


## GFA

> GFA
> 
> _Answer: I wanted to see what impact sub-q had on my RBCs and test levels, in addition sub-q is much easier than IM. I know from experience HCG is effective sub-q so I was hoping injecting test sub-q would give me similar results._
> 
> curious if this had an impact on the RBC ? i didn't see it listed.. thanks!


I will post up results as time goes on. I did a TON of donations last year and now Im at the opposite end of the scale with a hemoglobin of 12.6 and hematocrit of 38.6. I dont plan on any more donations for awhile (my last was a double red) so if my next BW is positive using SQ, I will continue to use SQ and get my RBCs checked.

I actually started taking some iron pills to help bring my levels up a little. I was feeling the effects of too low RBC. My next doc appt is next week when I will get the script for LW and get my RBC checked. From there he will probably reschedule me to come in a month or 2 later for a checkup.

----------


## GFA

@junk, as booku stated, your results would not be accurate as you are taking other ancillaries + HCG . When I did HCG mono like 10 years ago that brought my TT from 300ish to 800. Just from HCG alone.

----------


## GFA

Quick follow up. Just saw hematologist and hemoglobin was 12.2. No donations for awhile.

I have been doing SQ injections 2x a week 60mg per injection (120mg week) into the thigh for the last month. No HCG , no AI. Just straight up test cyp. My libido has been good so far so Im expecting my labs to be better than the last time I tried SQ. 

Next week I will be getting the following LW done.

Full CBC
E2 sensitive
Testosterone 
Thyroid

I will post up labs when done.

----------


## badrad123

Looking forward to the results. Thanks!

----------


## GFA

Ok folks. Here is my 2nd round of SQ testing with 120mg test injected 2x a week (60mg per injection). This was done into the thigh. No HCG or AI. My RBCs still at bottom of reference range. 

Testosterone , Total, Lc/Ms *638.0* 348.0-1197.0	ng/dL
Testost., F+W Bound *229.7	* 40.0-250.0	ng/dL
Testost., % Free+Weakly Bound *36.0	* 9.0-46.0	%
Estradiol, Sensitive *13* 3-70	pg/mL
Hemoglobin *12.6* 12.6-17.7	g/dL
Hematocrit *40.2* 37.5-51.0	%

*GFA* - 210 lbs, 41 years old ~20-25% Bf?
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) - Into Belly
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM *923* ng/dL (Total test) 366.7 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)
SQ *638* ng/dL (Total test) 229.7 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (2x60 weekly) - Into Thigh

So it appears injecting into low fat areas makes a big difference for the absorption of testosterone.

----------


## Moparman

I'd like to see the diff between once a week Im and 2x a week im

----------


## rollingthunder

> *Adding in Age and Weight/BF if you have it.* 
> 
> *Rollingthunder*
> 
> Baseline ?
> SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
> IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
> Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase.


*UPDATING HERE AS PER YOUR REQUEST: AGE 53, 
weight 240, BF mid 20s*

----------


## GFA

> I'd like to see the diff between once a week Im and 2x a week im


Ya 2x a week IM and 1x a week SQ into thigh would be the other 2 tests I should do.

----------


## GFA

*Adding in Age and Weight/BF if you have it.* 

*GFA* - 210 lbs, 41 years old ~20-25% Bf?
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) - Into Belly
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM *923* ng/dL (Total test) 366.7 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)
SQ *638* ng/dL (Total test) 229.7 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (2x60 weekly) - Into Thigh

*badrad123* - 46 years old, ~22% BF
Base *195* (Total test)
SQ *375* (Total test) 80 mg test (40mg 2x a week)
IM ?
Summary - Most recent test of 375 TT seems to indicate badrad is not responsive to belly SQ injections. 

*clarkster*
Base *175* (Total test)
SQ *505* (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
IM *781* 200mg week
Summary - too many things changed but TT still seems low for hcg + 100mg test. 

*rhoag*
Baseline *304*
SQ *394* ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 
SQ *852* ng/dL (Total test) 75mg x 2 
SQ *493* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x 2 + HCG + AI

*dhickey*
Baseline *243* ng/dL (Total test)
SERM *429* ng/dL (Total test) 20mg Tamoxifen ED.
IM *1223* ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250iu HCG SQ x2
SQ *508* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
SQ *745* ng/dL (Total test) 80mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2

*lacy23*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *400* ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM *720* ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku* - 23 years old, ~10-15% BF
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ *920* (Total Test) 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - Responds well to SQ injections. Age, activity or BF levels play a role? Booku switched from belly to thigh injections. 

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder* -AGE 53, weight 240, BF mid 20s
Baseline ?
SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase. 

*HRTStudent*
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

*Summary* - It appears injecting into belly fat for people with higher BF% is ineffective for SQ. 2nd round performed SQ into thigh only by GFA with better results. Additional testing is required.

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## dhickey

Some more info

dhickey
Baseline 243 ng/dL (Total test)
SERM 429 ng/dL (Total test) 20mg Tamoxifen ED.
IM 1223 ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250iu HCG SQ x2
SQ 508 ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
SQ 745 ng/dL (Total test) 80mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2

I believe these were all between my x2 injections, so not a trough.

Because of my low SHBG and fast metabolism of T, I'm currently trying 30mg EOD, 125IU HCG EOD. Hopefully this also allows me to to use less adex while keeping E2 in check. I'll probably test again in a week.

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## riotz0r

Wow this is good information to have... I'm 28 with around 10% body fat and I start TRT in a week, I take it I should ask my doctor for IM injections?? Seems even for lower body fat the IM works a lot better....

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## bethdoth

I'm 52, 191 pounds, about 13% BF. I was on adrogel and started injections in December 2012. Baseline was 304 total test E2 19. I started just test CYP SubQ in my belly fat at 70mg every 3.5 days (Sun AM/Wed PM) first lab Wed AM 6 week mark. Test 394 no E2. Moved injections to subQ in my thighs increased test from 70mg to 75mg every 3.5 days (Sun AM/Wed PM). Did labs again on Wed AM test went to 852 and E2 shot up to 52. Lowered test to 60mg in thighs and added HCG and an AI . Labs at the 6 week mark again on Wed AM test dropped to 493 and E2 37.

For me SubQ in the thighs works. But I have never done IM.

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## GFA

> Wow this is good information to have... I'm 28 with around 10% body fat and I start TRT in a week, I take it I should ask my doctor for IM injections?? Seems even for lower body fat the IM works a lot better....


IM is more reliable. SQ appears to be very low absorption in high BF areas. 




> I'm 52, 191 pounds, about 13% BF. I was on adrogel and started injections in December 2012. Baseline was 304 total test E2 19. I started just test CYP SubQ in my belly fat at 70mg every 3.5 days (Sun AM/Wed PM) first lab Wed AM 6 week mark. Test 394 no E2. Moved injections to subQ in my thighs increased test from 70mg to 75mg every 3.5 days (Sun AM/Wed PM). Did labs again on Wed AM test went to 852 and E2 shot up to 52. Lowered test to 60mg in thighs and added HCG and an AI . Labs at the 6 week mark again on Wed AM test dropped to 493 and E2 37.
> 
> For me SubQ in the thighs works. But I have never done IM.


60mg x 2 + HCG + AI and only 493? Seems pretty low. Try giving IM a shot, your test level will probably double and its more reliable. I switched back to IM for the time being. 

Im working on different injection techniques to minimize pain. Last few injections have been pain free, I have been injecting much faster than I did in the past.

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## GFA

*Adding in Age and Weight/BF if you have it.* 

*GFA* - 210 lbs, 41 years old ~20-25% Bf?
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *366* ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly) - Into Belly
IM *792* ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM *923* ng/dL (Total test) 366.7 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)
SQ *638* ng/dL (Total test) 229.7 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (2x60 weekly) - Into Thigh

*badrad123* - 46 years old, ~22% BF
Base *195* (Total test)
SQ *375* (Total test) 80 mg test (40mg 2x a week)
IM ?
Summary - Most recent test of 375 TT seems to indicate badrad is not responsive to belly SQ injections. 

*clarkster*
Base *175* (Total test)
SQ *505* (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week 
IM *781* 200mg week
Summary - too many things changed but TT still seems low for hcg + 100mg test. 

*rhoag*
Baseline *304*
SQ *394* ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 
SQ *852* ng/dL (Total test) 75mg x 2 
SQ *493* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x 2 + HCG + AI

*dhickey*
Baseline *243* ng/dL (Total test)
SERM *429* ng/dL (Total test) 20mg Tamoxifen ED.
IM *1223* ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250iu HCG SQ x2
SQ *508* ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
SQ *745* ng/dL (Total test) 80mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2

*lacy23*
Baseline *284* ng/dL (Total test)
SQ *400* ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM *720* ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

*Allaaro* 
Baseline *19.1* (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ *56.5* (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM *121.1* (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

*Booku* - 23 years old, ~10-15% BF
Baseline *70* ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ *920* (Total Test) 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - Responds well to SQ injections. Age, activity or BF levels play a role? Booku switched from belly to thigh injections. 

*Ratt*
Baseline *256* ng/dL
SQ *450* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM *750-900* ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

*38onTRT*
Baseline ?
SQ *486* ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

*Ryanmcd*
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM *750* ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

*Rollingthunder* -AGE 53, weight 240, BF mid 20s
Baseline ?
SQ *9* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM *24* (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase. 

*HRTStudent*
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

*Summary* - It appears injecting into belly fat for people with higher BF% is ineffective for SQ. 2nd round performed SQ into thigh only by GFA with better results. SQ still not as effective or reliable as IM even when injecting into lower BF regions. Additional testing is required.

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## kelkel

Don't let this thread die GFA. Really great work.

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## powerlifterty16

Who teaches you guys how to do these injections? I fear if I ever did at home injections I wouldnt know how. Does the dr teach it?

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## Ryanmcd

> Who teaches you guys how to do these injections? I fear if I ever did at home injections I wouldnt know how. Does the dr teach it?


check out youtube, at 1st I was shitting myself but after 10-15 its not a thing, hell I did my last one on a conf call at work "work from home" lol. It's more mental then pain, in fact last time I did it I forgot to let the alcohol dry and that stung more then the shot.

I do 25G 1inch into my quad.

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## fireeater49

[QUOTE=Ryanmcd;6522473]check out youtube, at 1st I was shitting myself but after 10-15 its not a thing, hell I did my last one on a conf call at work "work from home" lol. It's more mental then pain, in fact last time I did it I forgot to let the alcohol dry and that stung more then the shot.

I do 25G 1inch into my quad.[/QUOT]*Myself, I also do 25g but 3/4 and just go slow. Not a problem and I also agree about the alcohol thing too. Ouch!*

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## kelkel

Check out spotinjections.com for assistance.

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## ozley62

I don't care for Sub-Q injections at all, looks like most of the test I inject leaks back out and I've felt like shit the last month since I've being trying it. I seldom had more than a small dot of blood doing IM injections, this morning was the last Sub-Q for me.

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## BuzzardMarinePumper

I have been following this thread from the beginning and I started TRT on Oct 28 2012 1st 2 mths went from (78) to 468 with 100 mg a week every 3.5 days E2 shot up to 67 with top of normal range being 29 with my lab

2nd 2 mths droped to 80 mg a week SubQ 2 x's a week and Test dropped to 298 with the bottom end of normal being 250 and E2 continued to rise to 70 

3rd 2 mths wet back to IM and went to 250 mg a week 2 x's a week and had an Ai + Hcg and went back to my smart GP he said no need to ck E2 or Test and that was after he scriped my generic Adex at 1 mg a day for 6 mths ? WTF 

4th 2 mths I am reconstituting 2000iu's of HCG with 1 mL of Bac water and take .20 HCG daily , .30 AI every 4th day , 100 mg of Deca NPP 2 x's per week and 110 of Propioniate 2 x's a week and I feel the best I have felt in 30 years and my Dr doesn't even factor in my high dosage of opiates nor does he know how to prescribe an AI ? Sooooo he may do E2 and Test BW and he may no but I am doing the best I can and feel great ! I plan to get BW of RBC , Test and E2 on my own and just go to this doc for what he prescribes and get my other med from a good compounding Pharmacy !

When I get my son graduated I will be heading to TX to lowtestosterone.com . Really messed me up when the Sugar hill GA clinic didn't open . I am 100% disabled and the TRT has been the greatest benifit to my life since I was ran over by the truck on 02 .

Self medicating due to Dr. lack of knowledge and the need for extra Test when on high dosage of Opiates but he is so stupid he said 70 E2 and 298 Test level was GTG ? WTF ?


I am of the opinion that in a 53 year old man with legal Pain management Opiates intake that IM injections with produce a reading about 2 x's that of SubQ and I have lost 30 lbs of fat and gained 10 lbs of lean weight + dropped 4 inches in my waist  :Smilie:  not to mention my healt and reshaped body  :Smilie:

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## dhickey

> Some more info
> 
> dhickey
> Baseline 243 ng/dL (Total test)
> SERM 429 ng/dL (Total test) 20mg Tamoxifen ED.
> IM 1223 ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250iu HCG SQ x2
> SQ 508 ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
> SQ 745 ng/dL (Total test) 80mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
> 
> ...


SQ 469 ng/dl (Total test) 30mg EOD SQ, 125iu HCG EOD

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## Pumped340

Great thread. Not sure if the same members are here but here is what I have:

100mg 1x per week, test done 1 week after last injection:
Testosterone , Total: 587 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Testosterone, Free: 153.8 (35-155 pg/mL)
Estradiol: 29 (< 39 pg/mL)


125mg 1x per week, test done the day after last injection:
Estradiol: 48 (< 39 pg/mL)
Testosterone, Total: 1486 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Testosterone, Free: 491.9 (35-155 pg/mL)
DHT: 79 (16-79 ng/dL)


125mg split into 40-42mg 3x/week, SUBQ, test done after last injection (all in glutes)
Estradiol: 51 (< 39 pg/mL)
Testosterone, Total: 1022 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Testosterone, Free: 260.6 (35-155 pg/mL)
DHT: 72 (16-79 ng/dL)

So my concern is not getting my test levels high enough, SubQ seemed to work just fine for that. My issue is my estradiol. I switched from 1x/week injections to 3x/week injections (which everyone says should lower estrogen) and I switched from IM to SQ (which Dr. Crisler says should lower estrogen) and yet my E2 actually went up just slightly

Based on this thread I am now going back to IM, but keeping it 3x per week AND doing it exclusively in my quads. I do wonder if estrogen conversion would be still go down just doing thigh injectons but still subQ. I don't think my doctor wants to keep writing all of these scripts so it's hard for me to get tested very often. I really want to avoid taking an AI but my E2 is well above the range now. I would like to see how 3x/week thigh injections work after about 6 weeks and then at that point if E2 isn't lower I think I'll have to go back down to 100mg per week total. 

I am still using insulin syringes to get more accurate dosing, and they are only 1/2" long so while I am doing IM right now they are a fairly shallow IM.

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## kelkel

On your last protocol listed you mean 3 x per week, correct?
Remember, on your last two protocol's listed you tested the day after injection when everything is peaked. Which is fine just keep that in perspective when evaluating things.
I'd consider lowering your dose a bit. Your FT is still high (trust me, I'm a fan of high FT) but in your case you have room to lower it which in turn will help mitigate estrogen conversion.
Last point, and maybe most important, you're testing estradiol which is geared for women and reads higher in men. You're actual E2 would be lower. Always try to obtain a Sensitive E2 Assay.

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## Pumped340

> On your last protocol listed you mean 3 x per week, correct?
> Remember, on your last two protocol's listed you tested the day after injection when everything is peaked. Which is fine just keep that in perspective when evaluating things.
> I'd consider lowering your dose a bit. Your FT is still high (trust me, I'm a fan of high FT) but in your case you have room to lower it which in turn will help mitigate estrogen conversion.
> Last point, and maybe most important, you're testing estradiol which is geared for women and reads higher in men. You're actual E2 would be lower. Always try to obtain a Sensitive E2 Assay.


Yes, sorry about that, 3x per week. And yea my SubQ levels are pretty much exactly where we would expect IM levels to be breaking up into the 3x/week.

I have only recently heard about that estradiol issue. So the script should be written as "Sensitive Estradiol Assay" instead of just "Estradiol?" Is it possible my E2 could also be _higher_ as well?

I do think, given my FT is so high, it would make sense to lower it, but from a bodybuilding/results standpoint I am fighting that option  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  lol

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## kelkel

> Yes, sorry about that, 3x per week. And yea my SubQ levels are pretty much exactly where we would expect IM levels to be breaking up into the 3x/week.
> 
> I have only recently heard about that estradiol issue. So the script should be written as "Sensitive Estradiol Assay" instead of just "Estradiol?" Is it possible my E2 could also be _higher_ as well?
> 
> I do think, given my FT is so high, it would make sense to lower it, but from a bodybuilding/results standpoint I am fighting that option  lol



Re SQ injections: 

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report. - PubMed - NCBI

Sensitive E2 Assay is what you need. If you use Labcorp I can provide you the proper codes. I take them with me every time so they don't F things up.
No, not possible an E2 Sensitive Assay would read higher.
I understand the desire for higher FT. That said, you won't feel the difference if you knocked off maybe 10 mg's per injection. Remember, with injecting 3X per week you'll really never be far from peak levels anyway. Try it for a month and see. Take your last shot on a Friday, pull BW Monday a.m. before you inject. See where you fall.

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