# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Jewish Influence In America

## ecivon

Jewish influence in America:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%2...20Johnston.htm

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## Logan13

> Jewish influence in America:
> 
> http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%2...20Johnston.htm


fukking aljazeerah? Come on............... No wonder your world view is so perverted!

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## Snrf

:Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   :1laugh:

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## biglouie250

:Aagaytard:  al jazerra?

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## biglouie250

damn those jews for working hard and being smart!!!!!  :Aagaytard:

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## ecivon

> damn those jews for working hard and being smart!!!!!


Devious and calculating more like it.

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## Logan13

> Devious and calculating more like it.


The green eyed monster has been bugging you for a while hasn't it............

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## nalbano34

ROFL.....sounds like it, doesn't it!!!

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## 3Vandoo

rofl!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Kärnfysikern

> Devious and calculating more like it.


I think smart explains it best. They are without a doubt the most succesfull people. Just look at the number of jewish nobel laureates.

Chemistry (29 prize winners, 19% of world total, 28% of US total) 
Economics (22 prize winners, 38% of world total, 51% of US total) 
Literature (13 prize winners, 13% of world total, 27% of US total) 
Peace (9 prize winners, 10% of world total, 11% of US total)3 

Physics (47 prize winners, 26% of world total, 38% of US total) 
Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 28% of world total, 42% of US total) 

They constitute 0.02% of the world population and has over 20% of the nobel prizes!!!

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## ecivon

> The green eyed monster has been bugging you for a while hasn't it............


Yup, that it has ... but with good reason.

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## J.S.N.

> I think smart explains it best. They are without a doubt the most succesfull people. Just look at the number of jewish nobel laureates.
> 
> Chemistry (29 prize winners, 19% of world total, 28% of US total) 
> Economics (22 prize winners, 38% of world total, 51% of US total) 
> Literature (13 prize winners, 13% of world total, 27% of US total) 
> Peace (9 prize winners, 10% of world total, 11% of US total)3 
> 
> Physics (47 prize winners, 26% of world total, 38% of US total) 
> Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 28% of world total, 42% of US total) 
> ...


i defintiely think jews are smarter on average, and also their identity as jews helps them in most countries they live in. they get alot of money on their 13th birthdays and support of a community that has alot more solidarity than their host community.

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## biglouie250

i went to the mall on sunday. since im a part time geek i go and play in the discovery channel store. 2 separate jewish men with their respective sons were in that store(saw the beenie).....that is why they are smart!!! mixing chemicals and building robots at 10yo while i was toiling away with nintendo at that age. its a socio-cultural difference where they certainly seem to value education more then a lot of other cultures.

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## Kärnfysikern

> i defintiely think jews are smarter on average, and also their identity as jews helps them in most countries they live in. they get alot of money on their 13th birthdays and support of a community that has alot more solidarity than their host community.



No doubt. What impresses me most is how many of the greatest geniouses that has been jewish.

Einstein, oppenheimer, bohr, feynman. Just about every big name(with a few notable exceptions offcourse) in physics during the begining of the 20th century was of of jewish descendans.

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## J.S.N.

> No doubt. What impresses me most is how many of the greatest geniouses that has been jewish.
> 
> Einstein, oppenheimer, bohr, feynman. Just about every big name(with a few notable exceptions offcourse) in physics during the begining of the 20th century was of of jewish descendans.


yeah that field is stacked with them, although sometimes we ignore dudes like planck and godel who were doing crazy, crazy shit during roughly the same time.

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## yourmom

Ecivon, why don't you just become a martyr for you beliefs. I sure they could use you. You evidently have a alterer motive with your post. They rarely have anything to do with diet, nutrition, exercise or anabolic . Just propaganda.

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## Act of God

How come Einstein counts as a Jewish genius and not a German one? Oppenheimer was American. 

Are we going to start counting christians too?

ghey

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## MuscleScience

Dont you think it has more to do with jewish culture. I mean I work for a jew in my University. He is probably the only jew in the entire college and he works harder than anyone I have ever seen. So you cant tell me its because there is some big jew conspiracy going on to why he is so successful. Maybe its that jews teach there kids to work hard in school, listen to teachers and not blame others for there problems. Everyone has to agree that the jews should be the people with the most hatred in the world. Yet they have picked up whats left of there societies and carried on for thousands of years after each and every tragity that they have endured since thier existance began. I have never been able to understand why anyone could hate the jew. They have done nothing to know body. And if you say the palestines then you have to remember that the jews were there well before islam was around. Spoils of war is what got the muslims the land they had before. And spoils of war got it back for the jews right now. In the future it will change again. But I guess you could say the Canenites (dont know how to spell it) had that land first.

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## Kärnfysikern

> How come Einstein counts as a Jewish genius and not a German one? Oppenheimer was American. 
> 
> Are we going to start counting christians too?
> 
> ghey


Christianity and islam are religions, jews are a people. 

Personaly I dont care much if he was a jew, a german, austrian, chinese. 
But since this thread is about trying to show how bad the jews influence is on the word/america I want to show how good the jews influence is on the world.

They have contributed so much during the 20th century. Our entire modern world rests on those contributions. Americas dominance in science after ww2 started because of the jewish imigrant scientists that fleed europe.

So if we are going to talk about a jewish conspiracy to plunge the world into brimstone and fire maby we should also talk about a horrible jewish conspiracy to advance science.

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## J.S.N.

don't forget about the germans. they developed the first mocerd rocket (V2) and then ran the space race for both the USSR and USA.

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## Kärnfysikern

Hitler ruined germany :Frown: 
Germany was THE place to be for both science and technology pre ww2. But then all the great minds that the soviets didnt snatch ran to america.

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## biglouie250

> Hitler ruined germany



early vote for understatement of the year.

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## J.S.N.

luckily he only ruined it for a decade or so.  :Wink:

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## ecivon

> Christianity and islam are religions, *jews are a people*.


Sorry Bro, this is not correct. There is no such thing as the jewish people. Jews are to Judaism as Catholics are to Catholocism. There is one people: the human race. Jews are the same as arabs: Semites. You are a jew in that you practice and ascribe to Judaism; cease to practice that religion and you are no longer a jew, just as ceasing to practice Catholocism you are no longer Catholic.

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## J.S.N.

> Sorry Bro, this is not correct. There is no such thing as the jewish people. Jews are to Judaism as Catholics are to Catholocism. There is one people: the human race. Jews are the same as arabs: Semites. You are a jew in that you practice and ascribe to Judaism; cease to practice that religion and you are no longer a jew, just as ceasing to practice Catholocism you are no longer Catholic.


that's kind of semi-true. alot of people of various racial looks show genetic markers unique to jews. however it's somewhat like people from the russian nobility and villagers from johan's home town both showing a unique genetic marker that makes up a tiny portion of their DNA and claiming that makes them 100% rurikian or something, when in fact they grew up in completely different cultures and may have wildly different appearances.

if anything makes jews a people it's their own perception as such much moreso than most supposed racial groups.

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## Act of God

You also need to take into account that jewish people, as a group, are probably wealthier and more priviliged compared to other groups. This would afford them better schooling and resources for development. I suppose it would be a nature vs. nurture type question.

What I don't like is all the jerking off "look how awesome WE are!" crap. And you can't be a religion and a race. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Perhaps if the jewish people weren't so embedded with elitism and separatism they would be more accepted by their fellow HUMANS.

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## Kärnfysikern

> Sorry Bro, this is not correct. There is no such thing as the jewish people. Jews are to Judaism as Catholics are to Catholocism. There is one people: the human race. Jews are the same as arabs: Semites. You are a jew in that you practice and ascribe to Judaism; cease to practice that religion and you are no longer a jew, just as ceasing to practice Catholocism you are no longer Catholic.


As J.S.N say they consider themself a people and thats good enough for me. A jew consider him/herself as a jew even if he isnt religious. You cant say the same for christianity, islam, buddhism or any other religion.




> You also need to take into account that jewish people, as a group, are probably wealthier and more priviliged compared to other groups. This would afford them better schooling and resources for development. I suppose it would be a nature vs. nurture type question.


I never deny that. But it is interesting that they dominate so much. Japan for instance have on avarage higher IQ and spend loads of money on tech and science. Yet they dont have that many nobel prizes.




> What I don't like is all the jerking off "look how awesome WE are!" crap. And you can't be a religion and a race. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Perhaps if the jewish people weren't so embedded with elitism and separatism they would be more accepted by their fellow HUMANS.


It seems like that is a trait you ascribe to them. Not a trait they have. Most patriotic people have a slight "we are better attitude". Just look at america and france.

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## MuscleScience

Can someone pleassssseeeeee tell my why anyone could hate the jews?

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## spywizard

at least they aren't strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent people..

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## Act of God

> Can someone pleassssseeeeee tell my why anyone could hate the jews?


I'm certain that a good portion of it comes from "haters" since most Jewish families are well-to-do or at least upper middle-class.

I also think that most people are sick of hearing the victim routine from a group of people that has enormous influence politically (WELL funded lobby groups) and culturally (media) in this country. I've never seen such a powerful group of people get so much social protection. If anyone says anything that isn't pro-Jew or pro-Israel they are basically labeled anti-semites and that is the end of the discussion.

As for me, my main issue with their culture (not the people individually) is that I get the distinct feeling that they think they are (for lack of a better word) better than non-jews. Personally, I can't stand anyone who thinks they are better than me purely for the reason of being born. A lot of their culture is based on exclusion. They don't let their children marry non-jews. Their children have to take classes in inter-faith dating at temple. There are countless examples of this, and I'm sure there is also a fair shake of evidence to the contrary. 

I also think it depends on where you are living. I was originally from upstate New York and being christian or jewish or muslim or whatever was never really a big deal. We all just celebrated different holidays and that was it. Now I live downstate (Long Island) for work and there is a very real and visible difference. I would say that the NYC area Jewish people tend to fit the stereotype a lot more than other areas. 

Being an attorney I work in an environment that is borderline dominated by Jewish people. About 1/2 of my friends are Jewish and I get some inside information like when their bosses tell them to find more Jewish people to work at their firms. I also see the hiring discrimination versus non-Jews that is all too real in this area.

As an American, I can tell you what one of the paralegals told me one day. She was talking about how her son wanted to join the marines. She told him "You can't joint the army, Jewish people don't do that sort of thing." She was dead serious when she said it and my jaw almost hit the floor. Then I looked around and realized that the armed forces, police forces and fire departments are all missing a certain group of people for the most part. So now you have an entire group of people sitting around reaping the benefits of people putting their lives on the line, for them. There doesn't seem to be a sense of civic duty to anyone else but fellow Jews. Think about all this crap going on in the middle east. I am not referring to Israeli citizens, Israel has mandatory service.

Again, I think it is cultural as on an individial basis people always end up just being people. I think the stereotypes begin to come out when we're dealing with groups.

I also think that when everyone has a problem with you, it's probably you. There has to be some point where they, as a group, look in the mirror and at least ask themselves "what are we doing that makes everyone dislike us?"

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## spywizard

and why is there an issue with their culture??? 


That... is the the problem, many americans will not accept others differences, just because their culture is different..

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## ecivon

> I'm certain that a good portion of it comes from "haters" since most Jewish families are well-to-do or at least upper middle-class.
> 
> I also think that most people are sick of hearing the victim routine from a group of people that has enormous influence politically (WELL funded lobby groups) and culturally (media) in this country. I've never seen such a powerful group of people get so much social protection. If anyone says anything that isn't pro-Jew or pro-Israel they are basically labeled anti-semites and that is the end of the discussion.
> 
> As for me, my main issue with their culture (not the people individually) is that I get the distinct feeling that they think they are (for lack of a better word) better than non-jews. Personally, I can't stand anyone who thinks they are better than me purely for the reason of being born. A lot of their culture is based on exclusion. They don't let their children marry non-jews. Their children have to take classes in inter-faith dating at temple. There are countless examples of this, and I'm sure there is also a fair shake of evidence to the contrary. 
> 
> I also think it depends on where you are living. I was originally from upstate New York and being christian or jewish or muslim or whatever was never really a big deal. We all just celebrated different holidays and that was it. Now I live downstate (Long Island) for work and there is a very real and visible difference. I would say that the NYC area Jewish people tend to fit the stereotype a lot more than other areas. 
> 
> Being an attorney I work in an environment that is borderline dominated by Jewish people. About 1/2 of my friends are Jewish and I get some inside information like when their bosses tell them to find more Jewish people to work at their firms. I also see the hiring discrimination versus non-Jews that is all too real in this area.
> ...


This pretty much summarizes it. Jews are very elitist and separatist. They are extremely exclusionary when it comes to non-jews. And it is not a 'perception' that they feel superior to non-jews, it is a very real fact of their existence. Don't anyone think for a moment that 'goy' is used in a flattering manner/context by jews. Jews will not allow non-jews to stand equal and equivalent with themselves, we (goyim) are not deserving.

I don't give a rats ass what they have, I care in how they go about it. They will only spend their money amongst themselves, but will go to great lengths to make their money off of non-jews.

There is no such thing as the 'chosen people', there is no such thing as a jewish race, there is no such thing as jewish superiority. Every person born upon this planet is born equally without limitation and without superiority.

And to speak out on these issues does not mean that the person is an anti-semite, or jew hater.

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## MuscleScience

WOW, I understand what you all are saying about a certain group's culture. I am a firm believer that not all cultures are created equal. Just the babies born into them. Were I live there are not many jewish people so I dont see or experiance anything like what you all are talking about. Just to play devils advocate though at least the jews respect the law and pay taxes. I could care less if the have tons of money. What I hate is when I was and still am a poor college student working a shit load to pay my way through school and the goverment taxes my broke ass and gives it away to pay for health insurance to people who dont pay taxes, or give them a check every month to stay home and do nothing. That pisses me off, not some rich jewish banker.

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## J.S.N.

i would never categorize an entire group as "the jews" or "the blacks" unless jomkingly (just look around this subforum to see how diverse the opinions of "the americans" are) however there are definitely elements in international jewry that pursue a jewish agenda over national agendas. we have many lobby groups domestically who's sole purpose is to lobby for support for israel. justify it how you will but a lobby group solely promoting another state's interests _is_ unamerican. as americans if we are so often able able to look at states like mexico or iraq as stomping grounds for national interests then why is it so offensive to look at israel similarly?

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## ecivon

> i would never categorize an entire group as "the jews" or "the blacks" unless jomkingly (just look around this subforum to see how diverse the opinions of "the americans" are) however there are definitely elements in international jewry that pursue a jewish agenda over national agendas. we have many lobby groups domestically who's sole purpose is to lobby for support for israel. justify it how you will but a lobby group solely promoting another state's interests _is_ unamerican. as americans if we are so often able able to look at states like mexico or iraq as stomping grounds for national interests then why is it so offensive to look at israel similarly?


I miss your point. We don't have any national interests in either Mexico, or Iraq. So why the hell are we in Iraq?? Especially trying to fight their civil war? Likewise we have no national interests in Israel either, so why do we give them untold billions upon billions every year? We give Israel billions of economic aid and billions of military aid every year and every single loan and every single loan guarantee has been forgiven and they've never had to repay a single dime. On top of that we give them billions in what's called discretionary aid that isn't publicly tallied/accountable through the Pentagon. We also 'give' them, completely free of charge oil from Alaska and processed gasoline, primarily from Valero every year for many. many years. We have also built military bases for them and then turned over the keys to them Gratis. Who do you think paid for the 'Security Wall' they are building and who paid for the evacuation of the settlers from the Gaza Strip? American taxpayers, that's who.

Think money doesn't mean anything to the jews? During the Clinton administration Israeli had said they would relinquish the Golan Heights back to Syria, but that the US would have to pay Israel $17 billion to do so. And just why does the US maintain huge stockpiles of armament, munitions and explosives ordnance throughout Israel and give them free access to use whatever and all that they need? This was the bombs and ordnance Israel uses against the Palestinian population and recently against Lebanon -- at cost not to Israelis, but only to American taxpayers. And the US agreed to Israeli demands to increase the volume and inventory in these munitions depots for future Israeli use.

Israel is in and has been in violation of the arms exports act and the Leahy Amendment for years and the US turns a blind eye. The Palestinians resist with stones and suicide bombings in the face of Israeli attacks with the highest tech fighters and Apache gunships all supplied without cost to Israel.

I worked through the UN in the Middle East and Afghanistan for years. I've worked with Palestinian ngo's, refugee groups and the PNA for years. I've seen first hand the treachery of the zionists and the effects of their racism and elitism.

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## Logan13

> i would never categorize an entire group as "the jews" or "the blacks" unless jomkingly (just look around this subforum to see how diverse the opinions of "the americans" are) however there are definitely elements in international jewry that pursue a jewish agenda over national agendas. we have many lobby groups domestically who's sole purpose is to lobby for support for israel. justify it how you will but a lobby group solely promoting another state's interests _is_ unamerican. as americans if we are so often able able to look at states like mexico or iraq as stomping grounds for national interests then why is it so offensive to look at israel similarly?


when you have groups lobbying against something, you're going to have groups lobbying for something as well......There is no Jewish caucus in Congress, but there is a black caucus.

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## J.S.N.

my point was, when companies like del monte or nike keep workers in slavelike conditions, the neocon's last arguement (their trump card) is "hey man we're for americans, not mexicans/chinese/malaysians/whomever" yet they'll never suggest that israelis be exploited in such a way, because of the pro-israeli lobby pressure ($$$$). our politicians give them our money and fight their wars for them and what do we get in return? we don't use their bases for military action, we don't get oil from them, and they destabilize the region.


personally i don't advocate exploiting anyone in a way that makes their lives miserable; i'm just pointing out an inconsistency in the neoconservative worldview.

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## ecivon

> when you have groups lobbying against something, you're going to have groups lobbying for something as well......There is no Jewish caucus in Congress, but there is a black caucus.


The jews don't need a caucus as all levels of government, especially the three branches, are so well represented by jewish members.

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## J.S.N.

> when you have groups lobbying against something, you're going to have groups lobbying for something as well......There is no Jewish caucus in Congress, but there is a black caucus.


i don't like the black causcus any more than i like AIPAC.

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## Logan13

> The jews don't need a caucus as all levels of government, especially the three branches, are so well represented by jewish members.


what are there more of in Bush's administration: Blacks or Jews?

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## Logan13

> my point was, when companies like del monte or nike keep workers in slavelike conditions, the neocon's last arguement (their trump card) is "hey man we're for americans, not mexicans/chinese/malaysians/whomever" yet they'll never suggest that israelis be exploited in such a way, because of the pro-israeli lobby pressure ($$$$). our politicians give them our money and fight their wars for them and what do we get in return? we don't use their bases for military action, we don't get oil from them, and they destabilize the region.
> 
> 
> personally i don't advocate exploiting anyone in a way that makes their lives miserable; i'm just pointing out an inconsistency in the neoconservative worldview.


This is a whole other arguement. These companies that operate outside of the US in order to pay "slave-wages" should be tariffed like hell on whatever products that they try to send back into the US for distribution. It is all viewed now as the "global economy", not just by republicans. I do believe that because of the Unions, many companies have moved outside the US in order to avoid these higher wages. A good wage is fair, but the Union wages are simply crazy. Concrete finishers in Illinois start out at $29/hour ($60k/year) + it cost his employer another $30-45/hour in premiums. Can anyone sincerely tell me that this is a fair wage? Makes going to college seem silly, doesn't it. When you put a strangle hold on business, it gives businesses a reason to leave for operations outside of the US.

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## givemethejuice

> This pretty much summarizes it. Jews are very elitist and separatist. They are extremely exclusionary when it comes to non-jews. And it is not a 'perception' that they feel superior to non-jews, it is a very real fact of their existence. Don't anyone think for a moment that 'goy' is used in a flattering manner/context by jews. Jews will not allow non-jews to stand equal and equivalent with themselves, we (goyim) are not deserving.
> 
> I don't give a rats ass what they have, I care in how they go about it. They will only spend their money amongst themselves, but will go to great lengths to make their money off of non-jews.
> 
> There is no such thing as the 'chosen people', there is no such thing as a jewish race, there is no such thing as jewish superiority. Every person born upon this planet is born equally without limitation and without superiority.
> 
> And to speak out on these issues does not mean that the person is an anti-semite, or jew hater.




And Arabs are not separatist! I thought if you were not muslim, than you were an infidel. Jews might have their own culture, but at least if I am not Jew, than I don't have to worry about a jew trying to kill me.

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## spywizard

> This is a whole other arguement. These companies that operate outside of the US in order to pay "slave-wages" should be tariffed like hell on whatever products that they try to send back into the US for distribution. It is all viewed now as the "global economy", not just by republicans. I do believe that because of the Unions, many companies have moved outside the US in order to avoid these higher wages. A good wage is fair, but the Union wages are simply crazy. Concrete finishers in Illinois start out at $29/hour ($60k/year) + it cost his employer another $30-45/hour in premiums. Can anyone sincerely tell me that this is a fair wage? Makes going to college seem silly, doesn't it. When you put a strangle hold on business, it gives businesses a reason to leave for operations outside of the US.


 So you are for Protective Import taxes??? how about you have to pay an additional $3000 + $2400 for that plasma TV.??? 

or since Japan is one of the largest Ore refining companies operating in the USA everything made of steel went up 500%??

That's why we do not have import taxes, or rather overt taxes.

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## Logan13

> So you are for Protective Import taxes??? how about you have to pay an additional $3000 + $2400 for that plasma TV.??? 
> 
> or since Japan is one of the largest Ore refining companies operating in the USA everything made of steel went up 500%??
> 
> That's why we do not have import taxes, or rather overt taxes.


I am speaking on products made in countries that have no wage oversight, like your tennis shoes that are made in Thailand by workers making $.30/day. Japan, last I checked, pay fair wages, moreso than many companies in the US.

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## Act of God

> And Arabs are not separatist! I thought if you were not muslim, than you were an infidel. Jews might have their own culture, but at least if I am not Jew, than I don't have to worry about a jew trying to kill me.


you are absolutely right, and look where both religions spawned. They are freakin next door neighbors for god's sake. Gee, both religions have issues with pork. Both require beards and head gear to be worn. Listen to someone speaking Hebrew and it will sound a LOT like arabic. They are so similar if you break it down it is scary.

For all of christianity's flaws, it has always been a religion of inclusion (more people = more money = more power I suppose). Christians have always tried to take care of the helpless, the poor...at least in modern day.

Plus, you can always be a christian or muslim. Don't need need to be BORN one, which say something about Judaism right there. I know it is possible to convert but trust me, you will NOT be accepted.

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## J.S.N.

> This is a whole other arguement. These companies that operate outside of the US in order to pay "slave-wages" should be tariffed like hell on whatever products that they try to send back into the US for distribution. It is all viewed now as the "global economy", not just by republicans. I do believe that because of the Unions, many companies have moved outside the US in order to avoid these higher wages. A good wage is fair, but the Union wages are simply crazy. Concrete finishers in Illinois start out at $29/hour ($60k/year) + it cost his employer another $30-45/hour in premiums. Can anyone sincerely tell me that this is a fair wage? Makes going to college seem silly, doesn't it. When you put a strangle hold on business, it gives businesses a reason to leave for operations outside of the US.


if you want a more direct argument pertaining to the israel-palestine situation, then why don't we give $100+ billion to the black sudanese who are current genocide victims of the arabs up north, when we give that amount to the israelis under an obscure threat of genocide?

as for wages, why in the hell would anyone want to live on shitty wages? i hate to break it to you, but there are very fews jobs out these a monkey can't do, and even in the highly killed professions liek engineer there are an army of people from nigeria, india, china/wherevs who can do that too, and for much less money. why is it fair to pay someone who breaks their ass $10 when it's not fair for them to take shit from your home or take money from your wallet?

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## Logan13

> if you want a more direct argument pertaining to the israel-palestine situation, then why don't we give $100+ billion to the black sudanese who are current genocide victims of the arabs up north, when we give that amount to the israelis under an obscure threat of genocide?
> 
> *What are you referring to above?*
> 
> as for wages, why in the hell would anyone want to live on shitty wages? i hate to break it to you, but there are very fews jobs out these a monkey can't do, and even in the highly killed professions liek engineer there are an army of people from nigeria, india, china/wherevs who can do that too, and for much less money. why is it fair to pay someone who breaks their ass $10 when it's not fair for them to take shit from your home or take money from your wallet?


Market dictates wages. Since you are so much in favor of increasing wages, does this mean that you are also in favor of ridding the US of illegal immigrants who are here causing wages to drop?

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## ecivon

> Market dictates wages. Since you are so much in favor of increasing wages, does this mean that you are also in favor of ridding the US of illegal immigrants who are here causing wages to drop?


Bro, this is so wrong. By and large the illegal immigrants are here doing work that Americans won't do. What's causing real drop in wages is the export of manufacturing jobs overseas and a shift towards the service industry within the labor force that pays far less in real wages/earnings.

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## spywizard

> I am speaking on products made in countries that have no wage oversight, like your tennis shoes that are made in Thailand by workers making $.30/day. Japan, last I checked, pay fair wages, moreso than many companies in the US.


but their house payment is $.04 per day, and food cost is .15 per day..

fair wages in a competative market is what i am talking about..

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## spywizard

> Market dictates wages. Since you are so much in favor of increasing wages, does this mean that you are also in favor of ridding the US of illegal immigrants who are here causing wages to drop?


yes, yes i am... the media keeps portraying this group as willing to take jobs americans won't do.. that's not true..

Now we have a generation of kids that won't get any job, they are all waiting to get their record deals..

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## Logan13

> Bro, this is so wrong. By and large the illegal immigrants are here doing work that Americans won't do. What's causing real drop in wages is the export of manufacturing jobs overseas and a shift towards the service industry within the labor force that pays far less in real wages/earnings.


The jobs that illegals are doing today were done by US citizens in the past, prior to the influx of illegals in the 80's, except for picking fruit and other agriculture positions that were originally exempt from the minimum wage scales. Americans will not work in these positions, but only because these positions now pay lower wages due to illegals willing to work for less. These same positions paid the same if not more back in the 70's & 80's. Take the construction and manufacturing fields today. You have two options, work for $8-10/hour like the illegals will, or join a union. I agree that the exporting of jobs has effected our labor force, but to say that 15 million illegals now living in the US are NOT taking jobs away from US citizens is just naive..........but it does show how strong the US economy is by only having a 4.5% unemployment rate.

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## Logan13

> yes, yes i am... the media keeps portraying this group as willing to take jobs americans won't do.. that's not true..
> *This question was actually for JSN........., but I obviously agree with you*
> Now we have a generation of kids that won't get any job, they are all waiting to get their record deals..


Yep, everyone wants to be the next 50cent..............

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## Logan13

> but their house payment is $.04 per day, and food cost is .15 per day..
> 
> fair wages in a competative market is what i am talking about..


I must admit, on non-DOT jobs, I have been known to order a few boat loads of non-grade steel form India........and yes, I shop at Walmart evry now and than....... :Frown:

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## Kärnfysikern

> This is a whole other arguement. These companies that operate outside of the US in order to pay "slave-wages" should be tariffed like hell on whatever products that they try to send back into the US for distribution. It is all viewed now as the "global economy", not just by republicans. I do believe that because of the Unions, many companies have moved outside the US in order to avoid these higher wages. A good wage is fair, but the Union wages are simply crazy. *Concrete finishers in Illinois start out at $29/hour ($60k/year)* + it cost his employer another $30-45/hour in premiums. Can anyone sincerely tell me that this is a fair wage? Makes going to college seem silly, doesn't it. When you put a strangle hold on business, it gives businesses a reason to leave for operations outside of the US.


That is ridicilous. That is what a doc or dentist makes over here

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## juicedOUTbrain

I love how anything put out by the american mainstream media is pure truth and any other source is not believeable...you would all be perfect citizens in Orwellls book "1984"...

the american media does not tell you the whole truth, and the wall many of you have blocking out any info that comes from elsewhere is very scary to me...

I am an american jew (by heritage not religion) and american jews are 70% liberal and voted for gore in 2000...Its the Israeli RIGHT with help from the christian right aswell as bug buisness interests that have an overlapping agenda, that have the most pull in the bush administration...wars fought for the security of israel amount to huge profits for oil, defence, reconstruction....

Look at PNAC, AEI, Hudson institute, theyve been know as being the most influencial think tanks in the US...Almost every member of each group is jewish...

look at the biggest media watch dog groups...ADL.org, Camera.org, MEMRI,org all right wing jewish groups...most of the founders being in the think tanks...they consider any strory against israel as anti-semetic...

look at the second largest PAC in the US....AIPAC gives politicians huge amounts of money to vote the way they do...and to compare aipac to the black caucus is a joke...

*so the biggest think tanks, media watchdog groups, and PACs in the US are all Jewish ( Israeli rightwing more specifically) any any washington insider will tell you this, but jews dont have any influence on things, and anyone who thinks they do is spouting propaganda?*

*youve all based your opinions of half truths, straight up!*...and are living in a delusional reality as a result...I am very confident on my opinions and before anyone discounts this post as propaganda or conspiracy...ask me to elaborate on anything ive stated in this post. Ill do it with sources that will be to your satisfaction...

And I dont know why people insist on using al jazeera as a link...after years of anti muslim propaganda on cable news and elsewhere noone will take it seriously....its counter productive to informing people of the truth...90% of it is still true, but there are better sources that are more "reliable" to people who dont trust anything thats not american MSM...

you can debate if these jewish interests are the same as the US, or that its in our interest to support it, but to deny altogether it is just showing a lack of knowledge...

im sick of this shit do your homework people instead of just learning everything you know from TV news and labeling anyone who disagrees with you a propagandist..the TV news is the real propaganda...i have my beliefs questioned all day as i watch the MSM...I see nothing proving my opinions wrong, they just leave out a whole side of the story that further validates my opinions...

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## Act of God

Yeah but its way easier to yell "anti-semite" and end the conversation! That seems to be a choice tactic when there is no true counter-argument.

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## Kärnfysikern

What I have a problem with is that you first make the statement that there are alot of jews in important positions. Im sure that can be supported.

But you then make the huge leap into assuming all those jews are (ab)using there position to further the same cause. I have no reason to belive that the jews are a homogeneous group working for the same goal.

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## ecivon

> I love how anything put out by the american mainstream media is pure truth and any other source is not believeable...you would all be perfect citizens in Orwellls book "1984"...
> 
> the american media does not tell you the whole truth, and the wall many of you have blocking out any info that comes from elsewhere is very scary to me...
> 
> I am an american jew (by heritage not religion) and american jews are 70% liberal and voted for gore in 2000...Its the Israeli RIGHT with help from the christian right aswell as bug buisness interests that have an overlapping agenda, that have the most pull in the bush administration...wars fought for the security of israel amount to huge profits for oil, defence, reconstruction....
> 
> Look at PNAC, AEI, Hudson institute, theyve been know as being the most influencial think tanks in the US...Almost every member of each group is jewish...
> 
> look at the biggest media watch dog groups...ADL.org, Camera.org, MEMRI,org all right wing jewish groups...most of the founders being in the think tanks...they consider any strory against israel as anti-semetic...
> ...


There is absolutely no news source worth watching in the US. They have all evolved into reporting news events as opinion leaders. If it is available ITN and CBC have been pretty decent in reporting facts as they happened on the ground.

Frankly, I could give a tinkers less what someone chooses to do in the privacy of their own home. What I do care about is the proliferation and depth of this huge, well financed, entrenched jewish/Israeli propaganda machine that has the US strapped to its crotch. Lest anyone thinks it doesn't exist, or that its malevolency is blown out of proportion, or that those who talk about it are conspiracists, they are sadly mistaken and delusional.

Diaspora zionists and Israel are raping the US of its credibility and its money.

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## ecivon

> What I have a problem with is that you first make the statement that there are alot of jews in important positions. Im sure that can be supported.
> 
> But you then make the huge leap into assuming all those jews are (ab)using there position to further the same cause. I have no reason to belive that the jews are a homogeneous group working for the same goal.


Johan, Bro you've got to be kidding me. Whether you choose to believe this is your choice, but it is not based on fact.

Do you really believe that the vast majority of diaspora jews don't do whatever it takes to push a favorable outcome, in all areas, for Israel?

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## Kärnfysikern

> Do you really believe that the vast majority of diaspora jews don't do whatever it takes to push a favorable outcome, in all areas, for Israel?


No why should I? There are alot of americans with a swedish heritage, I have no reason to belive they are as a group trying to push for more swedish friendly policies.
I think labeling all jews as having the same will and goal is as short sighted as labeling all muslims as bloodthirsty al qaida supporters.

What does diaspora mean? I have never seen that word before. :Hmmmm:

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## Kärnfysikern

What you guys are basicly saying is that all jews in important positions in america is working primarly for israeli interest even if it is unfavorable for america.

I have no reason to belive that a american jew would have more loyalty to israel then they have to america.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> But you then make the huge leap into assuming all those jews are (ab)using there position to further the same cause. I have no reason to belive that the jews are a homogeneous group working for the same goal.


Understandable...Like I said its not all the jews...Its the hard right pro israel jews...All of the most influencial of these groups are run by jews from the hard right, all very pro bush, very pro israel, anti-muslim and anti-arab...

These same people hold most of the important defence positions in the White House and Pentagon...In other words all of these groups share members from the same pool of the pro-israeli right.

Most of the average american jews are liberal...most are wealthy and intelligent people, but they're not ruthless enough, nor do they have the oppurtunity to dominate foreign policy like the pro-israeli right, especially in the pro-war bush administration...

check the homepages of some of these influencial groups...tell me if you see any similarity between these agendas and the one pushed by the mainstream "news" channels, 24/7 in this country...

*Think tanks:*
American Enterprise Institute
Project for a New American Century
Hudson Institute

*Media Watchdogs:*
American Defamation League (ADL)
Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)
Commitee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting (CAMERA)

*PACS:*
American Israeli Public Affairs Commitee

All of them are waging a war on Jimmy Carter for his "anti-semetic statements" in his book about Israelis apartheid, and their control of US foreign policy. And they are all pushing for war against Iran...

wow, for claiming to be anti-defamation and promote accuracy in reporting, these groups sure do alot of defaming, and report a lot of inaccuracies :Smilie: 

poke around on the think tank sites for a little while, read some of their policy papers, especially regarding Iraq and the rest of the middle east...notice the push by these groups into iraq and iran...before and after 9-11...to me the Iraq war is one of the biggest pieces of evidence for Israeli interference in US foreign policy...




> I have no reason to belive that a american jew would have more loyalty to israel then they have to america.


1st off most of these groups are funded by the Israeli governement itself through various subsities and private donations.

2nd, you have to understand the mentality of these people...After the holocaust, these people are paranoid that the world is out to get them. In this attempt to counter anti-jewish sentiment they have become exactly what they despise. Many of these peoples parents went through WWII, and see the defense of Israel as priority number ONE...They dont realise that in this attempt they are becoming a self fullfilling prophecy, IMO...

Its also important to note that Israel is unique in allowing citizenship. If your parents were both born in Israel, than by law you are an israeli citizen. Thats why people claim its a jews only state. A second or third generation american jew has more right to live in israel today than a palestinian whos family has lived there for generations...

Iraq, Iran both seemed to be threats to the isreali right both inside the US and in Israel proper. The threat may very well be real...what i dont understand why american troops are mamed and killed, while americans pay the bill for this war to protect israel...I also think oil, has a large part in it considering thats where the pipelines get built to...like the bagdahd to haifa line...buts thats a whole new can of worms...




> What does diaspora mean? I have never seen that word before.


The Jewish Diaspora (as well as religious predispositions) are the events that created this strong need for a jewish homeland, at all costs...

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## J.S.N.

> Market dictates wages. Since you are so much in favor of increasing wages, does this mean that you are also in favor of ridding the US of illegal immigrants who are here causing wages to drop?


yes, and the legals as well. we're already in a situation where we're importing all kinds of resources for a massive population and we have boatloads of hispanics and asians coming in, working for less, and breeding like rabbits.

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## ecivon

> Most of the average american jews are liberal...most are wealthy and intelligent people, but *they're not ruthless enough, nor do they have the oppurtunity to dominate foreign policy like the pro-israeli right*, especially in the pro-war bush administration


Whatever their philosophical and political views, these same jews you refer to still unequivocally financially support AIPAC, Israel and the zionist agenda. I would venture that almost without reservation every jew supports AIPAC and its mission to promote Israeli government and national interest -- no matter whether it is right, or wrong. The end result is exactly the same: Throwing fuel on the fire.

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## Kärnfysikern

> Whatever their philosophical and political views, these same jews you refer to still unequivocally financially support AIPAC, Israel and the zionist agenda. I would venture that almost without reservation every jew supports AIPAC and its mission to promote Israeli government and national interest -- no matter whether it is right, or wrong. The end result is exactly the same: Throwing fuel on the fire.


Do you personaly know a majority of the over 5 million jews in america? If not I dont se how you can make such a statement about 5 million people without atleast some very strong statistics to back it up.

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## Act of God

Ahh the classic lib argument: If you can't prove that every single person in group "x" does "y" then it can't possibly be true. Common sense be damned, if you can only prove that 95% of a group believes in something you can't speak for the whole group.

Get over it, there is always an except to every rule. If you are ever going to talk about anything you have to accept that people deal with the majority.

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## Kärnfysikern

> Understandable...Like I said its not all the jews...Its the hard right pro israel jews...All of the most influencial of these groups are run by jews from the hard right, all very pro bush, very pro israel, anti-muslim and anti-arab...
> 
> These same people hold most of the important defence positions in the White House and Pentagon...In other words all of these groups share members from the same pool of the pro-israeli right.
> 
> Most of the average american jews are liberal...most are wealthy and intelligent people, but they're not ruthless enough, nor do they have the oppurtunity to dominate foreign policy like the pro-israeli right, especially in the pro-war bush administration...
> 
> check the homepages of some of these influencial groups...tell me if you see any similarity between these agendas and the one pushed by the mainstream "news" channels, 24/7 in this country...
> 
> *Think tanks:*
> ...



To be honest the whole "jews controll america" issue isnt realy important to me, I cant say I care either way since it has zero to no effect on my life anyway. 
What I oppose is claiming a certain goal for a large group of people. But since you separate betwen "avarage" jews and the extrem right so I guess thats cool. Atleast you dont make any weird claims like every jew is thirsty for the blood of small palestinian kids.

IMO the bottom line is always the voting public.
Obviously the american public doesnt feel the politicans are puppets that follow interest that arent realy americas. Wether there is a jewish influence or not the american voters doesnt seem to disagree with the support to Israel and that is what is important.

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## Kärnfysikern

> Ahh the classic lib argument: If you can't prove that every single person in group "x" does "y" then it can't possibly be true. Common sense be damned, if you can only prove that 95% of a group believes in something you can't speak for the whole group.
> 
> Get over it, there is always an except to every rule. If you are ever going to talk about anything you have to accept that people deal with the majority.



If I claim that every german loves sausage or that every french is snotty would you not think that claim is ridicilous?

Lets se proof that 95% of american jews support israels interest over american interests. Il be happy with a mere 80% if you can even prove that.

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## Kärnfysikern

Funny though that when it comes to science the german jew isnt a jew he is a german.

But when it comes to politics the american jew isnt american, he is a jew.

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## Act of God

That's their choice Johan. They don't relate to nationalism, and that actually comes from my friend's mouth "Jews are generally above nationalism". A Jew is a "Jew" before anything else. Hence, why if you ask them what they are they say "I'm Jewish" regardless if they are from America, Germany, Poland, Russia or wherever. That same lack of nationalism probably pisses the people who live and die for those countries off.

And I'm sure a lot of Germans do like sausage. How the hell do you think stereotypes come about? Do you think there were a bunch of white people sitting in some smoke filled room saying "we should tell everyone that blacks like watermelons and jews are cheap!"

Sometimes you have to look at the forest, that's all.

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## Kärnfysikern

> That's their choice Johan. They don't relate to nationalism, and that actually comes from my friend's mouth "Jews are generally above nationalism". A Jew is a "Jew" before anything else. Hence, why if you ask them what they are they say "I'm Jewish" regardless if they are from America, Germany, Poland, Russia or wherever. That same lack of nationalism probably pisses the people who live and die for those countries off.
> 
> And I'm sure a lot of Germans do like sausage. How the hell do you think stereotypes come about? Do you think there were a bunch of white people sitting in some smoke filled room saying "we should tell everyone that blacks like watermelons and jews are cheap!"
> 
> Sometimes you have to look at the forest, that's all.


The danger of stereotypes, or hell even population statistics, is when you try and apply them to every individual.

What I find interesting is when I talked about positiv jewish traits like all the great jewish scientist then you think its gay. You claim we should consider einstein as a german and feynman as a american first and foremost.

But if a politician is a jew nationality is irrelevant, then he is just a closet israelist in your eyes.

Dont you se your own hypocricy? If they do something bad its because they are jews, if they do something good its because of something else.

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## Kärnfysikern

Im still waiting for the proof that a majority of american jews put israels interests above american interests. Got some statistics to back that up? If you can find me a good poll with a resonably stated question and just a yes or no answere then Im sold.

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## Act of God

I didn't take part in that argument. As far as politics go, if you are part of those groups named I'd say that is pretty ****ing relevant. Those organizations sole goal is to bolster Israel and be pro-Jew. Just because they aren't burning crosses or acting like uneducated rednecks doesn't mean it isn't all that different than all the pro-white groups everyone loves to hate.

The problem is, Jews want religious protection from the law. For instance, they are allowed to actually put in their wills "if my son doesn't marry a jew, he gets nothing." This type of clause is generally illegal and non-enforceable, but there is a special exception for jews. If the same clause said "if my daughter doesn't marry a white/irish/italian/etc guy she gets nothing" would literally be struck down by the courts. The reason, "religious freedom".

Now, there they are claiming that being a Jew is being a religion. I can buy that, as I think that is the truth. What I don't buy is the duality race/religion. Pick one and go with it.

Then, Jews go around yelling about racism and anti-semitism because their RACE is being discriminated against (because they are so oppressed in this country, right).

Like I said, you have to pick one. You can't get double protection.

As far as stereotypes, you have to go with what you see. As I stated earlier, I see a lot living where I do that most people probably do not. The county I live in is very, very Jewish and so are the surrounding areas. I would vcnture to say that they may very well be the majority for the most part around here. 

Perhaps that is an explanation for things, as they are a large populous group and that breeds power in the immediate area. I don't know the reason to be honest.

Rambling aside, my point is that you can't discredit things just because you can't prove them on an individual basis. This is why I said this applied to the Jewish culture and not the individuals. There is a clear group mentality present within the group.

And even if it were true, no one is going to come out and say "you guys are right, we are trying to take over your country and run your government like puppet masters" 

Just because it wasn't said, doesn't mean it isn't true. These kind of things are very hard to prove without a smoking gun. The lack of said gun doesn't mean that the idea is retarded, though.

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## Kärnfysikern

Fair enough.

Painting all american jews as involved in a conspiracy that directly lead to iraq war ect doesnt hold much water.

But discussing the realistic possibility that pro israeli lobby groups have influence over american foreign policy is a whole different matter.

I only object to the first option, the second I dont involve myself in.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> Painting all american jews as involved in a conspiracy that directly led to the iraq war ect doesnt hold much water
> But discussing the realistic possibility that pro israeli lobby groups have influence over american foreign policy is a whole different matter.
> I only object to the first option, the second I dont involve myself in.


I specifically stated that most americans do not support bushs foreign policy. My jewish side of my family is very political and they hate bush with a passion. In fact, some of them even write for the new york times, hehehe...

However, they do support Israel...they just dont think that the US should be paying tax dollars and loosing lives for their country...

*My point was never that the average jewish-americans were involved in some type of scheme...it was that the israeli right has taken over the foreign policy of this country and has too much influence in the media. Read the policy papers I linked before, than look at the members of the group...Than cross reference that member list to the list of bush cabinet members...If that doesnt convince you that our foreign policy was written in 1996 for Israel, i dont know how to convince you...*



> Originally From Clean Break Strategy
> "Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq  an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right  as a means of foiling Syrias regional ambitions.".


From what I can tell from your past posts johan, you dont believe Iraq has benefitted the US...Have you ever wondered why US politicians pushed SO HARD for a war with little benefit...Maybe this will answer your questions...




> . Wether there is a jewish influence or not the american voters doesnt seem to disagree with the support to Israel and that is what is important.


I personally think most americans would be outraged if they saw the true nature of the brutal palestinian occupation....But this occupation has been hidden from the american people by a strongly pro-israeli media who is routinely intimidated by these media watch dog groups, who themselves are run by the same zionists that write these policy papers...

...check this movie out if you get a chance..

The War Party

I* know that you dont think it matters, but I do...The Iraq war and americas unconditional support for Israel has worsened the security of the US...it has also done some damage to our economy by growing our debt out of control..Our standing in the world has drastically dropped and weve distanced ourselves, even from our allie...so i cant agree with you that the US-Israel relationship doesnt effect US...*
For god sakes President bushs approval rating are now lower than the Israeli PM amongst arabs...In a war of ideas thats a pretty scary fact...You cant stop everyone that wants to hurt us, so making many many more of these people will only jepordize our security further, IMO...

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## Act of God

I have no problem being on the side of a democratic society that is under fire, but sometimes you have to call someone out on the crap they are dealing out. I think a lot of Americans are getting tired of Israel being above criticism.

We can be allies with Israel, but we don't have to wipe their asses too.

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## 3Vandoo

The World needs cheap labour!

Be a communist and give them a good salary like here, you will pay a banana 50$

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## 3Vandoo

dont forget what Kissinger told the Israeli PM

Im an american first

jew in second!

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## eliteforce

That isn't true, i'm not religious at all(agnostic) but I still tell people that I come from a christian famly, and I still celebrate christmas with the famly..and especially lets say if your an American caucasian then your probably going to identify with other white christian people that are from where your from, i don't see the difference. just that Jewish people _say_ their a jew but many of them dis-associate themselves with Judiasm (some because of the negative image jews get as a result of zionism, others on religious grounds) and then they just become 'normal' white people or normal americans, or they marry a non-jewish spouse and then just start doing the christmas and easter thing..in other words jewish americans are increasingly just white people, take off the hat and lose the twisted beard and there is no identifyable race, it's not like a black or a hispanic or a muslim/arab, or an oriental where you can tell just by looking at them what race they are




> As J.S.N say they consider themself a people and thats good enough for me. A jew consider him/herself as a jew even if he isnt religious. You cant say the same for christianity, islam, buddhism or any other religion.

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## saturn08

Listen ecivon, you anti semetic, racist, bluntly dumb individual, if you dont like jewish people so much and have a problem with them running goverment why dont you buy a brain and get into a political position where you can make a difference, instead of crying about how the jews run this and the jews run that. We live in probably the freeist nation in the world, where a man can "pull himself up by his own bootstraps" and become whatever he wants, including jews. 
If you have such a problem with them, do something about it. Otherwise shut your mouth because you only show off your stupidity and ignorance. 
Let me put it to you this way, "buddy" since you seem to believe that jewish people are holding down the arab population and responsible for arabs and everyone elses problems, forcing people into poverty, stealing jobs, killing palestinians and such,
approximate population of jews in the world is about 14,000,000

if 14m jews can cause such bad problems for the other 6.1B people on the planet *then there is something wrong*. now I have no problem with arab people. My best friend is Iranian. I grew up around Iranians who came over straight from Iran to Canada my whole life. And if my friends ever had a problem with jews they kept it to themselves.
As long as people work hard and have ambition, they can do anything; I truly believe that, and that goes for anyone and all races here in a country that is free. People ****ing died for the damn freedom that you so piss about. Dont like it here, go live somewhere else. Move to Iran or somewhere where jews or anyone non muslim arent wanted. See how you quality of life goes down. Dont blame jews for some insecurity that you yourself doesnt have the balls to face up to. This is an open forum, sure, but racist bastards arent wanted I dont think.

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## MuscleScience

Surely there are some jews that use gear out there. How come they are not chimming in?

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## saturn08

I am half jewish or should I say half of my family is jewish although I dont practice, thats why I have such problem with this thread

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## juicedOUTbrain

> Surely there are some jews that use gear out there. How come they are not chimming in?


I guess you could say im a gear using jew, well partially at least... :Smilie: 




> Listen ecivon, you anti semetic, racist, bluntly dumb individual...
> 
> ...Dont blame jews for some insecurity that you yourself doesnt have the balls to face up to. This is an open forum, sure, but racist bastards arent wanted I dont think.


I can only really speak for myself, but i dont think anyone here is blaming the jewish race, or jewish people..."Jew" is an easier word to use for Israelis...and i specifically target right wing israelis...just like i dont have much appreciation for the hard right wing of this country...the difference being that the Israeli right has a huge influence in the United States, and not the other way around...Areil Sharon himself reportedly stated in an argument, "the jews (Israelis) control america, and everyone knows it!".

*Im sure there are some racists using these things for an excuse for their hate...but that doesnt mean that anyone who questions israel is an anti semite...*

as i stated i am half jewish by blood(russian jew, not israeli, although some of my family emmigrated there)...Spiritually im more agnostic...but i do celebrate both christmas and hannukah...and I spent most of my holidays with the jewish side of my family...

They are typical NYC liberal jews, and they are all very political...in fact we were discussing israel's policies at thanksgiving last year :Smilie: ...hell we even protested the republican convention together...some of them are pretty well known activists, journalists, editors...and i can say that the stereotype is true that jews do hold money in the family and control a lot, in my extended familys case at least... :Smilie:  They are awesome, intelligent, respectable people, they even know i use gear and joke around with me about it...

bottom line, there will always be a poisoning of the well with racists, and its easy to get the wrong message from these types of threads...but questioning israels policies and the their influence into our country is a perfectly legitimate debate, IMO...and i think supressing this debate is very unhealthy for the country...

I cant speak for others, but i for one have some serious questions about these things and i dont appreciate being called racist for it.

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## saturn08

I dont believe that this debate was conscerning Israeli policies. If i remember the thread topic was about jewish influence in America. I believe that the debate over middle eastern polices is not discussed enough in our society. This i am in agreement with you on.
But I will not listen to ecivon degrade the very nature of jewish culture that instills strong family values, hard work, and the scrutinizing over every penny earned.

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## saturn08

if you will see very closely the topic of this thread and my response to it, you will see that what I said had nothing to do with Israeli policy. If you still think that I am calling you a racist after that, then I am sorry.

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## saturn08

It is true that there are jews that influence our government in many ways, especially when the cabinet is leaning more to the right side in response to middle estern policies and whatnot. this is true. *There are* a vast number of CEO's of big companies and chief financial officers in NY that are jewish. 
They do control a vast amount of money in this country and thus carry a big stick. 
The fundamental question is "Is there a problem with this?" NO. There is not. 
Are you a racist if you say that jewish people have alot of money and influence the outcome of certain political agendas? No.
Are you a racist when you say that there is a problem with this, and that something needs to be changed so that jews dont have as much influence in this country? YES
For some reason jews are responsible for other peoples troubles? YES
there are things that are intrisically racist about this statement.

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## saturn08

Israeli influence in our country, is fine to debate as well, I see that alot of this thread was discussing this. I dont have a problem with that either.
But I am directing my replies to some of the original comments made ecivon, not to really anyone else on this thread.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> I dont believe that this debate was conscerning Israeli policies. If i remember the thread topic was about jewish influence in America.


My argument is that the two have become one in the same. The USs unconditional support for Israel is supporting policies which i personally view as unjust and even brutal AT TIMES...I also think this influence helped along the push for war in iraq, but thats a tangent i dont want to go into at this point...And i think evicon made a mistake by saying "jews" influence in the US instead of "Israelis"




> But I will not listen to ecivon degrade the very nature of jewish culture that instills strong family values, hard work, and the scrutinizing over every penny earned.


I hear ya bro, and hearing non-jews critizise and stereo-type makes me a little uneasy too...but i have to say SOME of their points are valid...wether we like it or not...

I for one am proud of my families accomplishments...I think the philosophy of working hard and keeping money in the family is a good one, and just the smart thing to do...

What i take issue with is when americans (of any race/ religion) loose lives or money in the interest of another country, which is what I see to be the case in some instances. I blame the infiltration of israeli right wingers into the government and the complicit media for being responsible for this...and i have elaborated on the specifics on the last page...

like i said i understand your concerns and share some of them...but we have to let bigons be bigons, and focus on the issue at hand without being so ...anytime you stereo type or generalize you invite critisism, for that reason i try to be very specific on what exactly it is that im talking about...

but again, i can only speak for myself...im very proud of my background(s) and dont want to shed a bad light on jews in anyway, just have a real debate about the policies...

Although i may come off pretty strong sometimes, i think we can agree on this :Smilie: 




> Are you a racist when you say that there is a problem with this, and that something needs to be changed so that jews dont have as much influence in this country? YES


 To say jews should be stopped from having influence is truely racist and against everything american stands for.

The only thing that i think should be done to prevent unwarrented ISRAELI interest is expose some of these right wing groups like the AEI, and PNAC in the media, which has not been done to this point...being able to write or control policy from behind the scenes, without scrutiny, can be very dangerous, IMO...I think an independent media would keep em' honest...

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## saturn08

And I am proud of my background as well, a very large portion of my family is Jewish, with very man relatives in Israel as well as in Russia and several other countries. 
To be honest I am lean more towards the hard line right wing agenda when it comes to issues conscerning Israel. BUt that is not what I am arguing over.
My issue comes from the the fact that I feel ecivon did not bring up this article as an attempt to discuss the intrinsic nature of israeli-american policies, I felt a bitterness towards jews in general coming from his posts and somewhat subtlely racist remarks. 
This is what I dont like. 
I do disagree with you on the statement that israeli right wingers infiltrate our government, as if they were pseudo spies or something, and that American support for Israel is unjust, but that is neither here nor there. Do you understand now?

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## juicedOUTbrain

> To be honest I am lean more towards the hard line right wing agenda when it comes to issues conscerning Israel.


 I used to until i realized that this hard-line mentality was making the israelis security problems worse not better...IMHO, I think some high-ups of the Israeli gov't dont consider peace to be the ultimate goal, but simply want an eventual annexation of the territories...but i dont really want to go into all the details of that now either




> My issue comes from the the fact that I feel ecivon did not bring up this article as an attempt to discuss the intrinsic nature of israeli-american policies, I felt a bitterness towards jews in general coming from his posts and somewhat subtlely racist remarks.


I can see where you get that, but only he can answer that.




> I do disagree with you on the statement that israeli right wingers infiltrate our government, as if they were pseudo spies or something, and that American support for Israel is unjust, but that is neither here nor there.


 I think i laid out my argument pretty well for this on the last page if you want to check out some of those links...I wouldnt consider them spies...I think their influence was invited and welcomed by the bush administration along with their campaign contributions :Smilie: 

*I never said that US support for Israel was unjust, but that the USs support for some of Israels unjust policies was damaging to our national interest.*
*I realize the need for a strong alliance with israel*, but i feel we need to be as even handed as possible when dealing with support for some of these policies...I also think we have to keep the interest of the US above all else. Doing otherwise will make the security situation in our country worse, IMO...

but yes *i understand your concern*, and even agree to an extent...just know where to draw the line between honest critique and rasism...

peace

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## saturn08

> I used to until i realized that this hard-line mentality was making the israelis security problems worse not better...IMHO, I think some high-ups of the Israeli gov't dont consider peace to be the ultimate goal, but simply want an eventual annexation of the territories...but i dont really want to go into all the details of that now either


Im sorry but do you think that this problem with the palestinians is going to go away?
What, they just give them more land and they will be happy?
Or how about split Jerusalem down the middle? That would solve all the problems.
the fact is that these people are not going to stop until they "push the Jews to the sea"
Unless someone nukes that whole region, there will no end.
Not that anyone should nuke the place, but the hard line stance that Israel has adopted is just keeping their heads above the water so to speak.
Do you think all those Arab countries would for a second stop to think about invading Israel again if they were given half the chance? Not likely.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> Im sorry but do you think that this problem with the palestinians is going to go away?
> What, they just give them more land and they will be happy?
> Or how about split Jerusalem down the middle? That would solve all the problems.


Well, I can tell you definitively, that as long as Israel occupies palestinian land no they will not go away...I would say the palestinians have a much bigger threat from Israel then israel has with the plestinians...The Israelis quality of life is barely effected by the conflict...The palestinians are the ones that pay the price...they are poverty stricken, occupied, have no country, human rights, sovereignty, no security whatsoever, their homes are bull dozed, 15x higher casualty rates, etc...But no its just the pesky palestinians...dont you ever look at it from a human persepctive instead of the typical pro-western, white blood is more important than arab blood? Dont you ever try to put yourself in others shoes to try to understand why people do what they do...

*The Israelis want 100% peace while maintaining a harsh occupation...Thats an unreasonable request, IMO*...your not defending yourself when your occupying someones land. I would argue that the palestinians are defending themselves.

How about they withdraw to the internationally recognized borders, and stop bulldozing palestinian homes while building illegal settlements on their land? They are systematically violating a whole peoples rights and stealing their land for the actions of small groups of militants...Have you ever seen videos from inside palestinian territories on how they live and how they are treated...Id be pretty damn pissed off too...




> the fact is that these people are not going to stop until they "push the Jews to the sea"


Do you really think the 2nd or 3rd largest military power in the world has a legitimate security threat from a poverty stricken area, half the size of rhode island...

*And all the surrounding countries also state openly today that they would recognize israels right to exist if they withdraw to the 67' borders and give the palestinians east jerusalem as their capital...which is legally theirs according to the internationally recognized borders...*Its important to note the only two countried to ever vote against these requests in the UN are the US and Israel...




> Do you think all those Arab countries would for a second stop to think about invading Israel again if they were given half the chance? Not likely.


Israel has not been invaded since 1948, and there were reasons for the invasion. After declaring statehood, the Israelis started driving arabs from their land in an attempt to "purify" the state...This continued all the way up to the Dir Yassin massacre in late 1947, in which over 100 innocent arabs were slaughtered by the israeli army in a friendly arab town near jerusalem...Then the arab coutries reluctantly invaded and were crushed within a few months. Although the arabs were angry at the creation of a jewish state at the expense of the palestinians, they were politically divided amongst themselves and were not prepared for war.

its important to note that even in 1948 all of the arab armies combined were no match for the IDF...All of the arab armies combined totalled around 25,000 while the IDF totalled close to 30,000 and with superior technology...

...Since the invasion of 1948 Israel has pre-emptively invaded Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt numerous times, and occupied land from all of them...

Today, Israels defence establishment has grown and the arabs militaries have weekend. Israel has nuclear weapons, guided missiles, satellites, etc...Now the arabs use "suicide bombers" and other terrorist tactics that could be prevented with the building of a wall (on the border, of course...not cutting through palestinian land)..

and what chance would they ever be given anyway...they may be pissed they are not stupid...they know challeging the 1st and 2nd strongest military forces in the world would result in total annihilation.

Give them what they deserve, according international law, and much, although probably not all, of the hatred driving terrorism will disappear, IMO...

*The only other option that we have is to maintain the "peace through stregth strategy" that weve used...This strategy proves to be very costly in lives and financially while at the same time creating more instability and hatred towards the country, and 9-11 shows us that all the power in the world wont stop a few people wanting to **** us.*

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## Kale

> I am speaking on products made in countries that have no wage oversight, like your tennis shoes that are made in Thailand by workers making $.30/day. Japan, last I checked, pay fair wages, moreso than many companies in the US.


Ever wondered how much people get paid in Thailand? Here is an idea. At the moment, $1 is about 40 baht.

Agriculture, hunting and forestry (3,019 baht)
Fishing (2,968 baht)
Mining and quarrying (7,646 baht)
Manufacturing (6,420 baht)
Electricity, gas and water supply (17,841 baht)
Construction (4,706 baht)
Wholesale and retail trade, repair business (6,760 baht)
Hotels and restaurant (5,680 baht)
Transport, storage and communication (11,752 baht)
Financial intermediation (19,325 baht)
Real estate, renting and business activities (9,571 baht)
Public administration and defence (11,375 baht)
Education (14,883 baht)
Health and social work (10,804 baht)
Other community and social work (6,311 baht)
Private households with employed persons (4,068 baht)
Extra-territorial organisations and bodies (5,753 baht)
Unkown (12,341 baht)

Source: National Statistical Office, first quarter, 2005

Of course, there are a lot of people who are surviving on just 100-200 baht a day. The minimum wage is presently 175 baht per day.

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## eliteforce

assuming those #s are monthly

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## Kale

Yes they are monthly

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## Kärnfysikern

> I specifically stated that most americans do not support bushs foreign policy. My jewish side of my family is very political and they hate bush with a passion. In fact, some of them even write for the new york times, hehehe...
> 
> However, they do support Israel...they just dont think that the US should be paying tax dollars and loosing lives for their country...
> 
> *My point was never that the average jewish-americans were involved in some type of scheme...it was that the israeli right has taken over the foreign policy of this country and has too much influence in the media. Read the policy papers I linked before, than look at the members of the group...Than cross reference that member list to the list of bush cabinet members...If that doesnt convince you that our foreign policy was written in 1996 for Israel, i dont know how to convince you...*


I got no problem with that argument, I just dont know enough to debate it.




> From what I can tell from your past posts johan, you dont believe Iraq has benefitted the US...Have you ever wondered why US politicians pushed SO HARD for a war with little benefit...Maybe this will answer your questions...


Well if I where to bet anything it is that the middle east will be a very important region in 20-30 years or so when the oil wells starts to dry up. 

I do not quite se how Iraq was a threat to israel in the condition it was before the invasion. If it was all about Israel iran would have been a more logical first target?




> I personally think most americans would be outraged if they saw the true nature of the brutal palestinian occupation....But this occupation has been hidden from the american people by a strongly pro-israeli media who is routinely intimidated by these media watch dog groups, who themselves are run by the same zionists that write these policy papers...


We dont have that problem in sweden fortunaly. Here the media is biased in the other direction instead.




> ...check this movie out if you get a chance..
> 
> The War Party
> 
> I* know that you dont think it matters, but I do...The Iraq war and americas unconditional support for Israel has worsened the security of the US...it has also done some damage to our economy by growing our debt out of control..Our standing in the world has drastically dropped and weve distanced ourselves, even from our allie...so i cant agree with you that the US-Israel relationship doesnt effect US...*
> For god sakes President bushs approval rating are now lower than the Israeli PM amongst arabs...In a war of ideas thats a pretty scary fact...You cant stop everyone that wants to hurt us, so making many many more of these people will only jepordize our security further, IMO...


Well the israel-america relations doesnt effect me. Because Im not american  :Smilie:  Thats why Im not that interested in the whole thing. I think Bush is quite incompetent though but mainly because of the way the bush admin has gagged scientists. He sure has hurt europe-america relations aswell.
I think the war on terror is making the world into a more unsafe place. It creates barriers and hostility instead of tearing them down.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> Well if I where to bet anything it is that the middle east will be a very important region in 20-30 years or so when the oil wells starts to dry up.


 Very true indeed...But these same companies that encourage these wars for oil, also refuse to invest serious capital in alternative energy, and even crush attempts to begin research on it. I guess I dont blame them they are oil guys, but to say its our only option, which is what they often state, is untrue, IMO...




> I do not quite se how Iraq was a threat to israel in the condition it was before the invasion. If it was all about Israel iran would have been a more logical first target?


 Well I believe overthrowing saddam was a means to intimidate Iran without having to goto full out war. Having 150,000 US troops on your border will make you think twice before messing around...I think it predictably had the opposite effect by giving Iran more pull in Iraq...

Some big contractors are also planning to build oil pipelines between Haifa and bahgdad that will be very beneficial to israel in the future, when stability is restored and the lined can be opened...




> Here the media is biased in the other direction instead


I personally feel the truth is biased the other direction, but thats just my opinion...




> bush admin has gagged scientists. He sure has hurt europe-america relations aswell.
> I think the war on terror is making the world into a more unsafe place. It creates barriers and hostility instead of tearing them down


only a few more years, Im just gonna pray for someone better next time around to fix everything this guy has broken :Smilie:

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## try-n

Haye them darn jews.huh? Why don't you tell us all how you feel about blacks,and gays.and mexicans.and women.and everybody else but you?

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## Kärnfysikern

> Very true indeed...But these same companies that encourage these wars for oil, also refuse to invest serious capital in alternative energy, and even crush attempts to begin research on it. I guess I dont blame them they are oil guys, but to say its our only option, which is what they often state, is untrue, IMO...


All the big car companies are coming out with cars that run on less and less gas and they all have flexifuel cars and are working hard on hydrogen fuel cells. So it seems to be getting to the right place. This is mostly a matter of consumer demand. In europe most people have small and economic cars while you american love those big useless gas gusslers.

Now about the alternatives, I dont know if the oil companies have tried to hinder progress. But Exxon doesnt fight against global warming anymore for instance. The bs that car and gas companies intentionaly "killed" the electric car for instance is just bs. Battery technology simply wasnt mature enough. Now it is and we start to se electric cars that are not worthless. Like tesla.

Every penny spent on wind and solar power is a penny wasted because it could have been used to improve nuclear technology. I doubt they try to fight wind and sun because they are dead ends anyway.

What is interesting though is that for the price of the iraq war it could have been used instead to take america a long way towards getting rid of oil dependancy. Something that would have been a way better investment than the war. But well its not my tax money wasted fortunaly  :Smilie: 


I blame the greens for the inactivity. they have brainwashed the public into beliving we have to give up our living standard in ordet to "save the planet". No one is willing to do that so nothing happens. A more technologicaly optimistic and realistic view is that we can get rid of fossile fuels completely without giving up any living standard.

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## ecivon

> Listen ecivon, you anti semetic, racist, bluntly dumb individual, if you dont like jewish people so much and have a problem with them running goverment why dont you buy a brain and get into a political position where you can make a difference, instead of crying about how the jews run this and the jews run that. We live in probably the freeist nation in the world, where a man can "pull himself up by his own bootstraps" and become whatever he wants, including jews. 
> If you have such a problem with them, do something about it. Otherwise shut your mouth because you only show off your stupidity and ignorance. 
> Let me put it to you this way, "buddy" since you seem to believe that jewish people are holding down the arab population and responsible for arabs and everyone elses problems, forcing people into poverty, stealing jobs, killing palestinians and such,
> approximate population of jews in the world is about 14,000,000
> 
> if 14m jews can cause such bad problems for the other 6.1B people on the planet *then there is something wrong*. now I have no problem with arab people. My best friend is Iranian. I grew up around Iranians who came over straight from Iran to Canada my whole life. And if my friends ever had a problem with jews they kept it to themselves.
> As long as people work hard and have ambition, they can do anything; I truly believe that, and that goes for anyone and all races here in a country that is free. People ****ing died for the damn freedom that you so piss about. Dont like it here, go live somewhere else. Move to Iran or somewhere where jews or anyone non muslim arent wanted. See how you quality of life goes down. Dont blame jews for some insecurity that you yourself doesnt have the balls to face up to. This is an open forum, sure, but racist bastards arent wanted I dont think.


Typical zionist response: someone says something critical of Israel, call out 'anti-semite.' Distract attention away from the real facts. Stoke intimidation to quiet detractors.

My problen isn't with jews, but with zionism, those that support zionism and those jews that blindly support Israel, no matter what it does and its powerful lobbies, AIPAC, ZOA, JINSA, Council of Presidents, etc. etc.

I consider Israel the same as I consider Nazi Germany and South Africa: Racist and apartheid regimes. Nothing more and nothing less. Israel is a racist, apartheid and terrorist state, plain and simple. And it is impossible to be racist against Israel/jews as there is no such thing as a 'jewish' race. Jews are semites, exactly the same identity as arabs -- jews and arabs share precisely the same identity.

The only time I post anything here is in response to those that post anti-arab propaganda condemning arabs as a whole and it has been done a lot.

And I have done something about it. I have worked through a UN NGO, WFP, Amnesty Intl and other organizations in the Middle East and Afghanistan in pursuit of a Just Peace for 20 years. I know precisely what I am talking about.

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## MuscleScience

[QUOTE=ecivon]Typical zionist response: 

what exactly is a zionist?

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## juicedOUTbrain

> All the big car companies are coming out with cars that run on less and less gas and they all have flexifuel cars and are working hard on hydrogen fuel cells. So it seems to be getting to the right place. This is mostly a matter of consumer demand. In europe most people have small and economic cars while you american love those big useless gas gusslers.
> 
> Now about the alternatives, I dont know if the oil companies have tried to hinder progress. But Exxon doesnt fight against global warming anymore for instance. The bs that car and gas companies intentionaly "killed" the electric car for instance is just bs. Battery technology simply wasnt mature enough. Now it is and we start to se electric cars that are not worthless. Like tesla...
> 
> ...I blame the greens for the inactivity. they have brainwashed the public into beliving we have to give up our living standard in ordet to "save the planet". No one is willing to do that so nothing happens. A more technologicaly optimistic and realistic view is that we can get rid of fossile fuels completely without giving up any living standard.


cool post...if given the choice i wouldnt give up my car for a battery powered golf cart, yet, so i agree 100%... Except i do have *suspicions* that oil companies did make an effort to supress any *usable* technology. There is not too much evidence to support this, i just feel its good buisness and that seems to be how these big exec's do things...I guess you've seen "Who Killed the Electric Car"  :Smilie:  not very convincing...

as for green peace, they dont have too much of an influence over here. You can see that by the fact that the US was one of only 2 countries who refused to sign onto the kyoto treaty (and nooen here really gave a shit)... And although i disagree with Bushs motives, I think the kyoto treaties were unfair to the US...China refused to sign it anyway and as tony blair said last week, " If the US and UK stopped all industrialization and carbon emmissions today, it would be 2 years before the growth in chinas economy made up for it"...Noone wants that.

As for alternatives...i think there are so many ways to harness energy in the world, im surpirised we havent taken advantage of them yet...The raw energy of flowing rivers, the sun, the wind, the power of the atom, hell even the vaccum of space is loaded with potential energy...i guess all of these methods have their drawbacks as well...

BTW, nice reference to Nikola Tesla, Im a big fan...he had some wild theories i like to think about...my favorite is using electro-magnetism to warp space time, but thats a whole different thread all together.

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## saturn08

Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.

In the 40's many of the Jews that fled from the massacres in Europe bought the land that is now Israel off of Arabs and Budan tribes. The land was not being used for any purpose, it was desert. Israelis bought the land and started growing crops and developing an agricultural system over the next 20years.

It was at this point when the economy of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv started flourishing that the Palestinians wanted their land back, because they realized the mistake that they had made. 
And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.

And now its the Israelis fault that the palestinians are poverty striken? They have not economy to speak of? Interesting but about about 1m of the population of Israel is Arab, several hundred thousands of those people come into Israel everyday to from Palestine to wrok.

The fact is that the Palestinians live like rats because they choose to live that way. If they were so smart they would develop an economy, an infrastucture, a military, and everything else that goes into make a stable society, in the land that they have now.
Why dont they?
Because then they will not garner sympathy from the UN and people like you. If they are so threatened by Israel why dont they build an army? 
The answer is because they wont have an excuse to use suicide bombing, and terror tactics anymore. They will be a legitemate enterprise. 

Besides, even if they wanted to do all these things, Syria and Iran would not allow it anyway. And we all know that. The Palestinians are like Pavlovs dogs to them. Show them a little steak, get em' hungry, and tell them its the Jews who are responsible for their starvation. Go eat that Jew, he is the reason why you are in that cage. Yes, I have key and no you cant get out, until the Jews are dead.
Come on, use use your brain here guys.
And 48' wasnt the last time they were invaded, it was 67' and Israel kicked the shit out of about 6 Arab countries that were trying to invade them.

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## ecivon

> Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
> Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.
> 
> In the 40's many of the Jews that fled from the massacres in Europe bought the land that is now Israel off of Arabs and Budan tribes. The land was not being used for any purpose, it was desert. Israelis bought the land and started growing crops and developing an agricultural system over the next 20years.
> 
> It was at this point when the economy of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv started flourishing that the Palestinians wanted their land back, because they realized the mistake that they had made. 
> And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.
> 
> And now its the Israelis fault that the palestinians are poverty striken? They have not economy to speak of? Interesting but about about 1m of the population of Israel is Arab, several hundred thousands of those people come into Israel everyday to from Palestine to wrok.
> ...


It is precisely because of threads like this that I post anything. This is all not true!

First of all, Palestinians have been in that region as long as any jew. They have as much right to land claim and stewardship as any jew. And to say that jews 'bought' land from the Palestinians and they moved out is an outright lie. The 'NAKBA' was the jewish irradication of whole villages and the forced transfer of the refugees to primarily Lebanon and Jordan.

And as far as any jewish/arab war goes, had it not been for intervention of the US, Israel would have lost the battles with the arabs. The arabs were gaining strategic momentum against the jews until the US sent in heavy weaponry and supplies.

There was then and still exists today the forced expulsion/transfer of Palestinians from what the jews call Judea and Samaria: Eretz Yisroel: From the river to the sea. Today it is done strangling the livelihood and very existence/breath out of the Palestinians by enforcing pure abject poverty, with the intent of making life so miserable for the arabs that they will leave on their own. The Palestinians don't choose to live like rats, they live like they do because the jews/Israel are strangling them to death by cutting off all livelihood and connection with the outside world, even humanitarian supplies.

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## mcpeepants

> Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
> Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.
> 
> In the 40's many of the Jews that fled from the massacres in Europe bought the land that is now Israel off of Arabs and Budan tribes. The land was not being used for any purpose, it was desert. Israelis bought the land and started growing crops and developing an agricultural system over the next 20years.
> 
> It was at this point when the economy of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv started flourishing that the Palestinians wanted their land back, because they realized the mistake that they had made. 
> And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.
> 
> And now its the Israelis fault that the palestinians are poverty striken? They have not economy to speak of? Interesting but about about 1m of the population of Israel is Arab, several hundred thousands of those people come into Israel everyday to from Palestine to wrok.
> ...


Well Bibically the Hittites and the Amorites and other Canaanites where there before the Israelis. The Egyptians used to control the land too. Your using religion to justify a land being yours that basis of actually living there. The jews who came to Israel after the holocaust are Europeans plain and simple. How do they have more of a claim to land than arabs, christians, and other jews that have been living in the land for a couple thousand years. 

Israel controlls the West Bank and Gaza like a vice. They said they withdrew from Gaza but they controll Gaza border, sea access, and air space. How are you suppose to develope a economy if Israel can control the export of your goods? 

When Israel declared Independence, most of the arabs in Israel proper were driven out and are currently sitting as refugees in Jordan. If the palestinians stopped fighting, Israel would be settlements in the West Bank and might still be in Gaza. I mean there still building settlements in the West Bank.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
> Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.


In the civilized world we dont base our actions on the bible (which never even gives jews sole access to Israel), we base them on law...your statement shows exactly why many people have such a huge problem with zionism...

Your so intent on giving Israelis a safe and secure homeland, yet you care nothing about the sovereignty and security of palestinians...Thats the exact mindset that angers me about Israelis and hardline zionists.

International law says Israel should withdraw to the 67 borders, and give up east jerusalem. Their refusal to do this is the primary reason for most of the violence...a people have every right according to international law to defend themselves against occupation...

straight up, according to what you say you are the racist, *wether you know it or not*...why? because you believe jewish blood is more imprtant than palestinian blood even if its in a biblical context...




> And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.


no sorry to you, one year doesnt make up for 30 + years of opression...and the borders are still controlled as well as the bypass roads that cut through both settlements.




> The fact is that the Palestinians live like rats because they choose to live that way. If they were so smart they would develop an economy, an infrastucture, a military, and everything else that goes into make a stable society, in the land that they have now.
> Why dont they?
> Because then they will not garner sympathy from the UN and people like you. If they are so threatened by Israel why dont they build an army? 
> The answer is because they wont have an excuse to use suicide bombing, and terror tactics anymore. They will be a legitemate enterprise. 
> 
> Besides, even if they wanted to do all these things, Syria and Iran would not allow it anyway. And we all know that.


You also state that the Palestinians economy has nothing to do with the occupation and that "they choose to live that way"...all you have to do is compare the west banks economy compared to the almost lack of any economy in Gazza...*That statement is discusting and ignorant*...noone chooses to live like that...lets have foreign troops cruising the streets of the US and well see how our economy does...Palestine also has very few natural resources and the one they do have, acquifers, are being surrounded by Israeli settlements and stolen...




> And 48' wasnt the last time they were invaded, it was 67' and Israel kicked the shit out of about 6 Arab countries that were trying to invade them


Actually yes it was...In 67 Israel preemptively attacked egypt... no official arab army ever stepped foot on Israeli land after 48...and in your effort to discredit me you proved my point...that israel has no legitimate security threat by all the arab armies combined, let alone the the palestinian militants...and if you want to repond that the rockets and suicide bombings are a real national security threat, thats what you get when you choose to occupy a group of people, I dont care if its not politically correct-stop whining about it...live in gazza for a day and see how secure you feel.

the terrorist tactics are the only method they have left...Like you, *I despise these methods...but i go a step further by saying i equally despise dropping guided missiles in civilian areas from hundreds of miles away*...wether its on purpose or not the Israelis are committing genocide...for example *in last julys war between the IDF and hezbollah 400 israelis were killed, 40 of them innocent (this is with crude weapons)...out of the 1000 lebanese killed, almost half were innocent civilians. thats 10 dead innocent palestinians for every one dead israeli*...this is so substantial because israel has one of the most sophisticated weapons systems in the world...*how did they kill over 500 innocent lebanese in a matter of a week or 2 with these extremely accurate weapons?* thats a ruthless and disproportionate use of force, bottom line...

i dont want to go round and round...you obviously base your thoughts on the opinion that arabs are dumber, more violent, and less valuable than jews...and that jews are perfect and always just trying for peace...I only pray for you that one day you love all of gods children equally and leave the US vs. Them mentality that has brought nothing but trouble to both sides...

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## ecivon

> Well Bibically the Hittites and the Amorites and other Canaanites where there before the Israelis. The Egyptians used to control the land too. Your using religion to justify a land being yours that basis of actually living there. The jews who came to Israel after the holocaust are Europeans plain and simple. How do they have more of a claim to land than arabs, christians, and other jews that have been living in the land for a couple thousand years. 
> 
> Israel controlls the West Bank and Gaza like a vice. They said they withdrew from Gaza but they controll Gaza border, sea access, and air space. How are you suppose to develope a economy if Israel can control the export of your goods? 
> 
> When Israel declared Independence, most of the arabs in Israel proper were driven out and are currently sitting as refugees in Jordan. If the palestinians stopped fighting, Israel would be settlements in the West Bank and might still be in Gaza. I mean there still building settlements in the West Bank.


Israel says it wants nothing but 'Peace' and that it is because of the Palestinians that there isn't. But the jews refuse to describe what and how they call 'Peace' with the Palestinians. The peace the jews want is to seal the Palestinians off into at least three and maybe five cantons/bantustans. In essence outdoor prisons, encapsulating all of the Palestinians into enclaves where the jews tightly control all movement within these prisons with hundreds of checkpoints controlled by the IOF. Control of all movement into and out of the compounds and virtual control of all airspaces. Import and export of all Palestinian goods would be controlled by the jews as would collection and disbursement of all taxes due to the Palestinians.

The purpose of the so-called security wall, financed by American taxpayers, is to provide the western barrier(s) to these bantustans. It is for political reasons and not for security and to delineate the western borders of the final agreement unilaterally set by Israel. The jews will never give up the Jordan Valley. The goal will be to seal off the Palestinians until attrition takes its toll: the Palestinians either tire and remove to neighboring countries as refugees, or die waiting for an end to their planned extinction by Israel and the jews can take over the vacated land thereby seeking what they claim is their 'biblical' right: the entirety of Judea and Samaria

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## Kärnfysikern

> cool post...if given the choice i wouldnt give up my car for a battery powered golf cart, yet, so i agree 100%... Except i do have *suspicions* that oil companies did make an effort to supress any *usable* technology. There is not too much evidence to support this, i just feel its good buisness and that seems to be how these big exec's do things...I guess you've seen "Who Killed the Electric Car"  not very convincing...
> 
> as for green peace, they dont have too much of an influence over here. You can see that by the fact that the US was one of only 2 countries who refused to sign onto the kyoto treaty (and nooen here really gave a shit)... And although i disagree with Bushs motives, I think the kyoto treaties were unfair to the US...China refused to sign it anyway and as tony blair said last week, " If the US and UK stopped all industrialization and carbon emmissions today, it would be 2 years before the growth in chinas economy made up for it"...Noone wants that.
> 
> As for alternatives...i think there are so many ways to harness energy in the world, im surpirised we havent taken advantage of them yet...The raw energy of flowing rivers, the sun, the wind, the power of the atom, hell even the vaccum of space is loaded with potential energy...i guess all of these methods have their drawbacks as well...
> 
> BTW, nice reference to Nikola Tesla, Im a big fan...he had some wild theories i like to think about...my favorite is using electro-magnetism to warp space time, but thats a whole different thread all together.



Im a fan of Tesla aswell, but I was acctualy refering to Tesla motors, its a company that has launched a electric sports car that they claim can outperform the regular sports cars and have a decent range on full battry. Check it outs, its a beauty.
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

I remember reading a article by a big shot in a oil company. He said the oil companies are preparing for there own funerals. They might be making record profits now. But unless oil geology is missunderstood it wont last. I suspect they are going to want to be a part of whatever replaces oil. I would not be suprised if they will invest more and more in alternatives in the future.

The kyoto is just a first step, not realy a solution or anything. But I think it was a good initiative. China is often painted as the biggest environmental crock. There is some truth to it but they are also more or less building entire energy friendly cities! It seems like china is doing what they can with the economy they have. We need to take the first steps in europe and america, after all we are the ones that got us into this mess.

After studying physics now for almost 3 years I have to admit that I have become very sceptical to most proposed sources of energy. Wind and sun is generaly to hard to get anything out of and to unreliable. Wave, geothermal, tidalpower looks promising. But I think nuclear power is the only realistic option to coal and gas. Untill we can acctualy get a controlled and stable fusion reaction going.

If you got any good Nikola Tesla links feel free to share  :Smilie:

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## juicedOUTbrain

> After studying physics now for almost 3 years I have to admit that I have become very sceptical to most proposed sources of energy.


You sounded like a physist...I am an aspiring physicist, and both of my parents were relatively well-known physicists...I just finished up an assosiates degree in liberal arts and im transferring next semester to follow in their footsteps ( i got lost a little along the way :Smilie: )....I havent decided specifically which field i want to pursue yet...theoretical physics is my main love but not always promising enough...quantum mechanics is awesome and can get really crazy...im infactuated with entanglement theory, and i have some theories of my own on what it means :Smilie: ...ill PM some of my thoughts to you if youd like? im told its intersting...

what realm of physics are you studying?




> Wind and sun is generaly to hard to get anything out of and to unreliable. Wave, geothermal, tidalpower looks promising. But I think nuclear power is the only realistic option to coal and gas. Untill we can acctualy get a controlled and stable fusion reaction going.
> 
> If you got any good Nikola Tesla links feel free to share


Cold fusion is where its at...and other nuclear reactions could really solve our problems...but I think relying on nuclear energy would open up a whole new can of worms, getting rid of all that waste aty least. Cold fusion seems just a baby step away...

There are some new studies ongoing about the near infinite potential energy of the vaccum of space...i have a few little ideas of my own that i feel could harness some of this energy, but its not really a realistic option at this point.

As for the Tesla links...this one has always captivated me...I dont know how true it is...but based on the nature of his science i tend to believe it...

Tesla runs a touring car on "black magic" or free energy

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> You sounded like a physist...I am an aspiring physicist...I just finished up an assosiates degree in liberal arts and im transferring next semester to pursue a degree is physics....I havent decided specifically which field i want to pursue yet...theoretical physics is my main love but not always promising enough...quantum mechanics is awesome and can get really crazy...im infactuated with entanglement theory, and i have some theories of my own on what it means...ill PM one of them to you, lemme know what you think...its pretty basic but im told its "interesting"...


Sure thing, but quantum mechanics isnt my strongest side yet. I havent had time to take any advanced class in quantum mechanics yet so Im just familiar with the basic. Schrödinger equation for spherical potential ect. I have no real experience with entanglement  :Frown: 

Hold on to what you want to focus on until after the first 2,5-3 years or so. I went in dead set on doing cosmology or theoretical physics. But I have slipped from that. I feel that high level theoretical physics like string theory right now is to far away from reality and cosmology while wonderfully interesting is just to hard to make a carrer in. It also suffers a bit from the same reality disconnection as theoretical physics.

So now I am going to sneak start my diploma work(realy a bit to soon). Nuclear astrophysics. I might slip over into particle physics later on. Not sure yet. What I have seen of it so far is fascinating.




> Cold fusion is where its at...and other nuclear reactions could really solve our problems...but it would open up a whole new can of worms, getting rid of all that waste.
> 
> There are some new studies ongoing about the near infinite potential energy of the vaccum of space...i have a few little ideas of my own that i feel could harness some of this energy, but its not really a realistic option at this point.
> 
> As for the Tesla links...this one has always captivated me...I dont know how true it is...but based on the nature of his science i tend to believe it...
> 
> Tesla runs a touring car on "black magic" or free energy


I think unfortunaly cold fusion is as dead as it becomes. Only thing that might hold some tiny hope is sonofusion. Otherwise I think good old fashion hot fusion is the only alternative.

Waste issue can be solved. Next generation reactors will use the energy in uranium 50-70 times as efficient. It will only leave 1/50 of the waste todays reactor produce and the waste will be shortlived. Todays reactors are quite inefficient realy. But since uranium is so cheap and abundant there is no economic incentive to fully develop the alterative reactors(breeder reactors). 

Vaccum energy is interesting, especialy how it ties into dark energy. I cant say I know anything about that since I havent taken quantum field theory yet. But the fact that quantum electrodynamics predict such a HUGE vaccum energy while the cosmological observations show such a small vaccum energy is interesting. I wonder what will have to be modified.

I hope you will be able to stick to your optimism  :Smilie:  Learning physics is wonderfull, but it has the bad side effect of making you into a sceptic and pessimist  :LOL:

----------


## juicedOUTbrain

> Sure thing, but quantum mechanics isnt my strongest side yet. I havent had time to take any advanced class in quantum mechanics yet so Im just familiar with the basic. Schrödinger equation for spherical potential ect. I have no real experience with entanglement


Dont worry, i wrote in in about 15 minutes for myspace, so it very simple....i dont fully understand quantum mechanics either, but i do understand the concept that the sub atominc world is ruled by a totally different set of laws as our phyiscal world...ill patch together some of my weird theories, though i have to say they are not very intellectually satisfying and leave alot of questions...Entanglement is just the theory that everything in the universe is connected...a few studies with particles have confirmed 1 of 2 things...either entanglement is real and our concept of space and time is an illusion convenient for us but not REAL things, or there must be faster than light travel.

Erwin Shrodinger is the man I have a book of his, its a compilation of two books into one called, "what is life?" its a compilation of _what is life?_ and _Mind and Matter_...i must say its a tough read...it was written in the 40s so some of the theories are not as understood and developed as they are today. But i definitly reccomend it.

I also just finished a book by JG Gott, called, "the theoretical possibilities of time travel: in einsteins universe". awesome book really openes your mind, i highly reccomend it...very understandable yet in depth at the same time.




> So now I am going to sneak start my diploma work(realy a bit to soon). Nuclear astrophysics. I might slip over into particle physics later on. Not sure yet. What I have seen of it so far is fascinating.


 Thats a sick...field...studying the birth of stars, pulsars, quasars, etc is a much more solid science and the knowledge weve acquired about them has a long way to go...i gotta say im jealous.




> I think unfortunaly cold fusion is as dead as it becomes. Only thing that might hold some tiny hope is sonofusion. Otherwise I think good old fashion hot fusion is the only alternative.


have any experiements been done on cold fission? off the top of my head, maybe making some isotopes of uranium or plutonium a little more stabe to make a much more controllable reaction? just kinda babbleing here...




> Vaccum energy is interesting, especialy how it ties into dark energy. I cant say I know anything about that since I havent taken quantum field theory yet. But the fact that quantum electrodynamics predict such a HUGE vaccum energy while the cosmological observations show such a small vaccum energy is interesting. I wonder what will have to be modified.


Yep they calculate that the energy of a vacuum is about around 10 to the 71(notation)gm/cc...thats a tremendous amount of energy according to E=mc2...and this substance with no measurable mass having potential energy brings you to dark matter or anti-matter...a whole new can of worms...




> I hope you will be able to stick to your optimism  Learning physics is wonderfull, but it has the bad side effect of making you into a sceptic and pessimist :lol


I know...i lived with two of them :LOL:  a healthy bit of skeptism is good, but you have to be open to infinite possibilities...thats one thing quantum mechanics teaches you :Smilie: ...

ill shoot you a PM with some sections of my writing, or i may post them in the philospohy section...

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## saturn08

I would love to debate with you more juicedoutbrain but because of 
this



> the terrorist tactics are the only method they have left...


I will not.

I believe that suicide bombing of innocent women and children to be vile, and the fact that you consider yourself proud of your jewish heritage and yet empathize with these monsters that not only commit these attacks, but believe that they are doing some sort of Gods will, is putrid.

No one, Jewish, Palestinian, black, white, whatever should condone the pre- emtive attack on innocent civilians.

****ing disgusting that you would even mention that these people have not other choice but to go in parks and blow up eldery people, or set bombs off in schools. There is not rationalization for these methods, whatever Israel, (which by the way they do not kill innocent civilians on purpose; they plan strategical strikes against targets of terror organizations, and some times there are casualties, and yes its atrocious, and horrible, BUT THEY DO NOT TARGET THEM) or anyone else for that matter does. 

There is a HUGE difference between mistaken civilian casuality and the intent to to cause harm to innocent people.

And if you do not recognize this difference, then yes you have won this argument, because I refuse to even associate myself with this line of discourse.

And I was not using evidence to from Bible to further my argument: so you can keep you civilized world remarks at bay. The bible is a point of reference for many people that choose to take a more religeous stance when approaching arguments that are sensitive to their values and morals, I was merely pointing out the fact that it is stated for all those that would like to know that the land does belong to the Israelites in the biblical setting.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> I believe that suicide bombing of innocent women and children to be vile, and the fact that you consider yourself proud of your jewish heritage and yet empathize with these monsters that not only commit these attacks, but believe that they are doing some sort of Gods will, is putrid.
> 
> No one, Jewish, Palestinian, black, white, whatever should condone the pre- emtive attack on innocent civilians.
> 
> ****ing disgusting that you would even mention that these people have not other choice but to go in parks and blow up eldery people, or set bombs off in schools. There is not rationalization for these methods, whatever Israel, (which by the way they do not kill innocent civilians on purpose; they plan strategical strikes against targets of terror organizations, and some times there are casualties, and yes its atrocious, and horrible, BUT THEY DO NOT TARGET THEM) or anyone else for that matter does. 
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between mistaken civilian casuality and the intent to to cause harm to innocent people.
> 
> And if you do not recognize this difference, then yes you have won this argument, because I refuse to even associate myself with this line of discourse.
> ...


 :0icon Pissedoff:  I dont have much time because im about to head to work...but you are a moron if the only thing you got out of my posts was that i approve of suicide bombings...I didnt say i approved of suicide bombings, i said i despise violence on both sides...and i dont exclude the Israelis...I think anyone who intentionally targets civilians is insane and should be brought to justice before they have a chance to do these horrible acts...

But i make a point of sayng, "why"??? what hopelessness and desperation drives these people to do this...Not questioning their motives leaves you dehumanizing these people and if we dont understand the problem, than it will never be solved...

And It is true that this is the only tactic they have left...they cant build an army, and they cant fight the IDF straightup so they take their anger out on soft target to try to prove a point (which becomes a hypocritical point when resorting to the actions that they despise), which again i think is discusting...

but bottom line saturn, i dont care if its on purpose or not, Israel has killed 30 times more palestinian civilians in the last 10 years or so, than israeli civilians...

we can argue about the intention, or the nessesity, but the raw numbers dont lie...30 times more dead civilians in a territory probably an 8th the size Israel proper...when the Israelis are supposed to be a civilized western country...i expect more from the israelis....they also have very precise weapons and an argument could be made that even if they never targeted civilians, the force used was disproportionate and ruthless...in other words inviting the death of civilians...

my last point is that israel considers anyone fighting against the illegal occupation as an enemy and doesnt count them as a civilian...they are occupying land and killing people who oppose the occupation under the guise of defence...

i am proud of my jewish heritage, and thats why the actions of israel anger me and the rest of my jewish family....jews are very intelligent thoughtful people, and not vengeful stubborn and ignorant...the actions of israel are not representative of my values or my families...I would expect more out of them than stubborness and resorting to bombs at the only way to bring peace!

im done, but your an asshole, if the only thing you got out of my 4 or 5 very large posts is that i condone suicide attacks...
pay a little more attention to what im saying and not how im saying it

done here

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## saturn08

good, as am I.
I was about to add that since this is a steroid forum, we can still talk about steroids all day, I wont hold anything against you as I hope you wouldnt with me, seeing as this is a purely political argument and has nothing to do with the real reason of why we are a chatting online in the first place.
And I would still would like to leave somewhat in a civil manner hoping that we remember the context of this argument, and can discourse on other things.
But if you want to start name calling and bullshit, then you can screw yourself, if thats how you want to end this subject.

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## eliteforce

when the nazi's were herding jews into ghettos, would suicide attacks against Germans have been justified, since the ghettos were a prelude to the destruction of jewish people, or maybe they were right to just willingly walk into the ghettos, allowing the nazis to confine them there..-for now(then).

Isn't true that these Palestinian bantustans are simply a prelude to what the Israelis hope will eventually be a forced expultion of the Palestinian population, or forceing them out by making normal life impossible and miserable, trying to get them to leave the country and resettle in some other arab country. or if there was a war with israles arab neighbors that could be an excuse ti kill them.

isn't true that the Palestinian militants including hamas have offered to end all militant activity if Israel respects the 1967 borders.

what kind of militant resistance is acceptable in face of such harsh Israeli 'security' tactics. needless to say the kind of thing we're seeing in palestine is unprecedented, much worse than the aphartied in s. africa was.

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## Act of God

> straight up, according to what you say you are the racist, *wether you know it or not*...why? because you believe jewish blood is more imprtant than palestinian blood even if its in a biblical context...


You just summed up every issue I have with them

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## juicedOUTbrain

> good, as am I.
> I was about to add that since this is a steroid forum, we can still talk about steroids all day, I wont hold anything against you as I hope you wouldnt with me, seeing as this is a purely political argument and has nothing to do with the real reason of why we are a chatting online in the first place.
> And I would still would like to leave somewhat in a civil manner hoping that we remember the context of this argument, and can discourse on other things.
> But if you want to start name calling and bullshit, then you can screw yourself, if thats how you want to end this subject.


I hold no grudges...i do get heated when people take my words out of context....the whole point of my posts is to condemn violence ON BOTH SIDES...i could really care less, ive been paying attention to all this shit for a while and i know how i stand, i also know many people feel the way you do, it frustrates me, but what can i do...everyone has a right to their own opinion...ill see ya around the board...

and before you label anyone racist for being against zionism...please watch this movie and tell me who is the the true jew and who is the hateful racist?

Anti-Zionist Jews

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## Kärnfysikern

> Dont worry, i wrote in in about 15 minutes for myspace, so it very simple....i dont fully understand quantum mechanics either, but i do understand the concept that the sub atominc world is ruled by a totally different set of laws as our phyiscal world...ill patch together some of my weird theories, though i have to say they are not very intellectually satisfying and leave alot of questions...Entanglement is just the theory that everything in the universe is connected...a few studies with particles have confirmed 1 of 2 things...either entanglement is real and our concept of space and time is an illusion convenient for us but not REAL things, or there must be faster than light travel.


You might be using another entanglement than I am used to hearing :Don't know: 
Quantum entanglement usualy refer to that 2 particles can share the same wavefunction. Say for instance 2 photons traveling in oposit directions. 

Now let those photons travel a lightyear away from eachother. If you now do a measurement on one of the photons it will collaps the wavefunction. What happens now is that you measure for instance the spin of one of the photons, when doing so the other photon has to get the oposit spin. So in some wierd way the two photons "communicate" instantly no matter the distance betwen them. One photon gets measured and tell the other what spin it should take.




> Thats a sick...field...studying the birth of stars, pulsars, quasars, etc is a much more solid science and the knowledge weve acquired about them has a long way to go...i gotta say im jealous.


Unfortunaly what Im going to start with isnt quite as exotic :LOL:  Im just going to do a neutrino spectrum for a certain decay process that is tied into the tripple alpha process. It is interesting though because it is crucial for the formation of all heavy elements in the universe. 





> have any experiements been done on cold fission? off the top of my head, maybe making some isotopes of uranium or plutonium a little more stabe to make a much more controllable reaction? just kinda babbleing here...


I guess you could call fission cold in the shape it is now. You only need neutrons that are moderated to room temperature and a nice quantity of uranium or plutonium and the process runs itself. When nuclei fission energy is offcourse released that produce the heat. So it cant be cold in that manner, if it was cold it wouldnt realy be of any use since its the heat that we use to produce electricity. But starting a fission process is quite easy and requires no special temperature conditions.
The reactions we do use in our power plants are very controllable. Its probably one of the most controlled reactions that exist. If the reaction deviates the slightest from what we want it to be it isnt sustainable and drops again. Unless the plant is designed in a flawed way like the chernobol plant and the other russian plants moderated by graphite.

Cold fusion on the other hand, the whole idead of cold fusion was born when two chemists Fleischmann and Pons. They did a experiment and though that they where seeing fusion. This experiment was repeated in just about every university in the world and no one else could se any evidence of fusion. So it more or less died within a month of the discovery. Pons and Fleischmann was both more or less expelled from the scientific community because of this since they went to the newspapers before they tried to publish it in the scientific journals. They are now seen as cranks more or less. Kind of hars.

But in mainstream physics no one belives cold fusion is possible. It just isnt feasible through any mechanism we know about. Whenever you want to spark fusion you need to give the nuclei enough energy to be able to penetrate eachothers electrostatic repulsive field. You need to bring them so close so that the strong attractive nuclear force overpower the electromagnetic repulsive force. 
The easiest way to give the nuclei enough energy is just to heat them tremendously just like in stars.
You could do it in particle accelerators aswell, but the energy to run the accelerators are many orders of magnitude larger than any energy released by the fusion.

The is something called muon catalysed fusion that can be done cold but it also require that we put more energy into it than we can get out of it.




> Yep they calculate that the energy of a vacuum is about around 10 to the 71(notation)gm/cc...thats a tremendous amount of energy according to E=mc2...and this substance with no measurable mass having potential energy brings you to dark matter or anti-matter...a whole new can of worms...


The problem is that we have never been able to measure this vaccum energy. I think the high value is probably a error of theory.

Are you familiar with the "ultraviolet catastrophy" in classical electromagnetism? Before planc got the idea to invent light quanta the theories predicted that there should be a infinite ammount of electromagnetic radiation radiating out of everything. It took a genious to figure out what was wrong with those theories and then a new field of science was born.

I suspect the same is true of our current theories, the predictions doesnt quite match reality so we need a new genious that can come with some clever idea that brings us into a new year of science yet again.
Thats whats exciting, physics is heading into VERY exciting times no doubt. Beeing part of physics for the coming 20 years will probably be amazing. If you decide to study it you will have a rich and rewarding work  :Thumps Up: 




> I know...i lived with two of them a healthy bit of skeptism is good, but you have to be open to infinite possibilities...thats one thing quantum mechanics teaches you...


Yeah:-) the problem is just that many of the things we realy want to think as possible gets kind of crushed when you get into the whole formalism. Physics is a very very strict dancing partner. It wont let you try and moves its not 
comfortable with  :LOL:  , but what is possible and those things that are not explained yet are the fascinating things.

----------


## juicedOUTbrain

> You might be using another entanglement than I am used to hearing...Quantum entanglement usualy refer to that 2 particles can share the same wavefunction. Say for instance 2 photons traveling in oposit directions.


I was more reffering to the result of the experiment. If communication bewtween particles can be instantaneous, that leads me to believe that there is a faster than light travel, or that the reality we live in may not be so REAL. If time and space are Infinitly large in some form or another (which ist what i personally belive) that leads me to the conclusion that the perceived space between things must be infinitly small...its hard to wrap your head around it, i know...but i can elaborate if you dont understand what Im saying...humans are so used to finite, measurable things...when you bring real infinity into the equasion, everything seems to change...i know that time and space are convenient to us, but i question if they are real things, or just the embodiement of how the brain understands the world around us...




> Unfortunaly what Im going to start with isnt quite as exotic Im just going to do a neutrino spectrum for a certain decay process that is tied into the tripple alpha process. It is interesting though because it is crucial for the formation of all heavy elements in the universe.


Hmm, is that the process that occurs in stars...I dont know much about it, but it sounds interesting...if you want to give me some links i could check it out...

BTW I was talking to pops last night, and we were talking about some of his old work...he was working on the magnetic suseptabily of carbon chars, and contributed a lot of work to the North Warning System, a radar system now used in the arctic...he went on to tell me that his ex-lab partner when he tought and studied physics at city college, actually went on to become the president of the national physical society in 2003...i thought that was interesting...




> I guess you could call fission cold in the shape it is now. You only need neutrons that are moderated to room temperature and a nice quantity of uranium or plutonium and the process runs itself. When nuclei fission energy is offcourse released that produce the heat. So it cant be cold in that manner, if it was cold it wouldnt realy be of any use since its the heat that we use to produce electricity. But starting a fission process is quite easy and requires no special temperature conditions.
> The reactions we do use in our power plants are very controllable. Its probably one of the most controlled reactions that exist. If the reaction deviates the slightest from what we want it to be it isnt sustainable and drops again. Unless the plant is designed in a flawed way like the chernobol plant and the other russian plants moderated by graphite.


like i said im not an expert on this stuff...i consided cold fission to be, the process of being able to split atoms without releasing all of the energy (storing it), i guess i was mistaken...




> The is something called muon catalysed fusion that can be done cold but it also require that we put more energy into it than we can get out of it.


haha, well thats not very useful is it :LOL: ...sounds cool though ill definitly check it out.




> The problem is that we have never been able to measure this vaccum energy. I think the high value is probably a error of theory.
> 
> Are you familiar with the "ultraviolet catastrophy" in classical electromagnetism? Before planc got the idea to invent light quanta the theories predicted that there should be a infinite ammount of electromagnetic radiation radiating out of everything. It took a genious to figure out what was wrong with those theories and then a new field of science was born.
> 
> I suspect the same is true of our current theories, the predictions doesnt quite match reality so we need a new genious that can come with some clever idea that brings us into a new year of science yet again.
> Thats whats exciting, physics is heading into VERY exciting times no doubt. Beeing part of physics for the coming 20 years will probably be amazing. If you decide to study it you will have a rich and rewarding work


I often believe the same things...many assumptions people rely on in the world of physics are just that assumptions...a theory that meets all possible experimentation, but could be subject to a better fit replacement at any time. 

I waiting for a final "theory of everything" that will tie relativity and quantum mechanics once and for all...im sure once its found it will be beautiful and very revealing about the true universe in which we live

I do plan on sticking with it, like i said i havent really gotten the ball rolling yet on what EXACTLY i want to do...but ive been into physics since i was a pretty young kid, and i doubt my interest will change now...




> Yeah:-) the problem is just that many of the things we realy want to think as possible gets kind of crushed when you get into the whole formalism. Physics is a very very strict dancing partner. It wont let you try and moves its not comfortable with  , but what is possible and those things that are not explained yet are the fascinating things


Well thats why quantum mechanics is so cool :Smilie: ...experiments like the ones that resulted in entanglement show us there is a lot we dont know...and its cool to think about whats going on...

Have you ever heard of the quantum experiments with "superposition" whos results change just by the mere act of observing them? WTF?<---COOL VIDEO...

and heres a better desciription of the experiment

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## HardBastard

If you watch what the bleep do we know , down the rabbit hole they discuss a lot of these things. you can get it from torrentspy.com

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## juicedOUTbrain

> If you watch what the bleep do we know , down the rabbit hole they discuss a lot of these things. you can get it from torrentspy.com


pretty cool movie...there are rumors that there are spiritual agendas behind it...but most of the movie is accurate...i watched it for probably around 3 hours before i had to run...it was just going into neuroscience and "perceived reality" , which was pretty interesting...

i definitly recommend this movie if you have 4-5 hours to spend, and a decent attention span, haha...

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## HardBastard

> pretty cool movie...there are rumors that there are spiritual agendas behind it...but most of the movie is accurate...i watched it for probably around 3 hours before i had to run...it was just going into neuroscience and "perceived reality" , which was pretty interesting...
> 
> i definitly recommend this movie if you have 4-5 hours to spend, and a decent attention span, haha...



the one i watched was 2.5 hours. that was what the bleep do we know down the rabbit hole . what the bleep do we know was the firsst one i guess.

yes the rabbit whole definitely had spiritual agenda , but an amazing ammount of very credible scientists who were singing the praises of spirituality. the stuff about the entanglement and the light changing from photons to waves when you observe them is very strange, all in all the picture is very strange almost mad , its like up could be down or 1 + 2 = 4.

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## juicedOUTbrain

> the one i watched was 2.5 hours. that was what the bleep do we know down the rabbit hole . what the bleep do we know was the firsst one i guess.


Thats what i have...but it is the DVD, with hours of extra interviews...




> yes the rabbit whole definitely had spiritual agenda , but an amazing ammount of very credible scientists who were singing the praises of spirituality. the stuff about the entanglement and the light changing from photons to waves when you observe them is very strange, all in all the picture is very strange almost mad , its like up could be down or 1 + 2 = 4.


I personally dont think science and spirituality contradict eachother...as einstein said science is just understanding god designs...or somthing to that effect. However, religious leaders would like to see an end to science because it contradicts thier literal interpurtation of the bible...

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## Kärnfysikern

> I was more reffering to the result of the experiment. If communication bewtween particles can be instantaneous, that leads me to believe that there is a faster than light travel, or that the reality we live in may not be so REAL. If time and space are Infinitly large in some form or another (which ist what i personally belive) that leads me to the conclusion that the perceived space between things must be infinitly small...its hard to wrap your head around it, i know...but i can elaborate if you dont understand what Im saying...humans are so used to finite, measurable things...when you bring real infinity into the equasion, everything seems to change...i know that time and space are convenient to us, but i question if they are real things, or just the embodiement of how the brain understands the world around us...


Yupp I think I get what you mean  :Smilie: 

The whole entanglement issue is unresolved so far and its going to be interesting to se where it ends. The philosophical implications of quantum mechanis are quite fascinating. But I havent realy read so much about it. 




> Hmm, is that the process that occurs in stars...I dont know much about it, but it sounds interesting...if you want to give me some links i could check it out...


Here is the basics of the tripple alpha process
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/l...riplealph.html

It is not perfectly understood yet. The details that is. But it is a crucial part in knowing how old a star can get. I havent realy gotten into the whole thing yet but Im looking foward to it. We can study the process on earth by doing it in a reverse. We let carbon 12 decay into 4He+8be and then the 8Be further decays. By understanding the decay we will understand the fusion aswell. But experimentaly it is EXTREMELY hard since the lifetime of 8Be is in the order of picoseconds.

The most important thing is that the details of the fusion processes determine how old a star can get. If for instance one step in the fusion chain is a bit more probably than we think it might cut down the theoretical age of a star with as much as 20% if not more.




> BTW I was talking to pops last night, and we were talking about some of his old work...he was working on the magnetic suseptabily of carbon chars, and contributed a lot of work to the North Warning System, a radar system now used in the arctic...he went on to tell me that his ex-lab partner when he tought and studied physics at city college, actually went on to become the president of the national physical society in 2003...i thought that was interesting...


Is he retired or still active? Engineer or physicist?




> like i said im not an expert on this stuff...i consided cold fission to be, the process of being able to split atoms without releasing all of the energy (storing it), i guess i was mistaken...


yeah it cant realy be done unfortunaly. When a nuclei fission it gets split into two roughly equal mass parts and a few neutrons. All the energy is in the form of kinetic energy of these parts. They bump and crash into everything around them until the kinetic energy has been randomly distributed as heat. 




> haha, well thats not very useful is it...sounds cool though ill definitly check it out.


lol nah not usefull for anything except curiosity  :Smilie:  It works by replacing a electron with a muon, the muon is much more massive so it orbits around the nuclei much closer. That means the nuclear charge is screened and you can get two nuclei much closer before the electrostatic repulsion becomes noticable. So reaching the distance needed for the strong force to kick in becomes so much easier.

But muons have a very short lifetime and that I guess is why it can never be a practical method.




> I often believe the same things...many assumptions people rely on in the world of physics are just that assumptions...a theory that meets all possible experimentation, but could be subject to a better fit replacement at any time. 
> 
> I waiting for a final "theory of everything" that will tie relativity and quantum mechanics once and for all...im sure once its found it will be beautiful and very revealing about the true universe in which we live
> 
> I do plan on sticking with it, like i said i havent really gotten the ball rolling yet on what EXACTLY i want to do...but ive been into physics since i was a pretty young kid, and i doubt my interest will change now...


I am kind of hoping we never find a theory of everything. It would be a bit boring if we find a ultimate theory. Then physics would be a done science, all that would be left is to work on the details  :Frown: 





> Well thats why quantum mechanics is so cool...experiments like the ones that resulted in entanglement show us there is a lot we dont know...and its cool to think about whats going on...
> 
> Have you ever heard of the quantum experiments with "superposition" whos results change just by the mere act of observing them? WTF?<---COOL VIDEO...
> 
> and heres a better desciription of the experiment



Yupp the good old dubble slit is usualy the first encounter with quantum mechanics. Such a simple example but far reaching philosophical implications. No wonder einstein didnt like the implications of quantum mechanics.

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