# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Obama chooses Biden for VP

## Ernst

The title says it all. Let's hear what you think.....

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## Bio-boosted

If you scroll past the title quick enuff it reads, ' *osama bin laden for VP* '.

LOL

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## Pooks

Even though, Obama and Biden don't see eye to eye on many issues, Obama still chose Biden.. WHY?

The media tells us it is because of Bidens great experience, Obama apparently needs a teacher, to show him the ropes on how to be an experienced politician/leader..

Pick the guy who went after Obama the hardest during the primaries, regarding lack of experience..

If Obama is so concerned about his abilities to lead, that he needs someone more experienced to show him how to do it.. If Obama himself feels as if he is not ready to be president.. how is the rest of the nation supposed to believe Obama is ready to lead... If we believe he is not ready to lead, but vote for him anyways.. does that make us responsible voters..

It suddenly makes absolutely no sense to support Obama other than by people who feel ill towards McCain and for no other reason.

Do we want another Bush/Cheney debacle.. where the Vice President Calls the shots.. like it was in the first Bush term..

I do not think so.. We want the president to call the shots..

I think its a terrible Obama move, as far as perceptions go.
Sadly, I do not think Obama did it just for the perception, I seriously think he feels he is not ready to be our president.

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## Vincent

If Mcain doesnt get in we are in deep trouble. My two important issues as a small business owner are taxes and the secruity of the country. The Dems want to raise taxes and Obama doesnt have a clue about foreign relations. Let me give you a example. You are a middle class person just like me and work for a big corporation. You will save about 600.00 a year if you are middle class under obamas plan. what do you think the rich business owners are going to do when they have to pay close to 35% in taxes?????? They are going to cut jobs and no raises for noone for a long time. So you can shove that 600.00 up your ass. Im in direct contact with the rich on a daily basis and thats there plan. They will not lose but we will when you dems are crying like little bitches because you have no job.

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## BITTAPART2

THE DEMS HAVE BEEN CRYING B/ THEY HAVE HAD THEIR JOBS EXPORTED OVERSEAS SO THESE CORPERATIONS YOU SPEAK OF CAN GET TAX BREAKS. the idiots are the republicans that are middle or lower class that are so blind to what is happening they just stick to their "dont go against the grain, abortion is wrong, god is great blah blah jesus terrorism muslim bush cheney church and guns" they dont realize that ramkrishna patel just got their job so their ceo could get a tax break. I am torn now because I dislike Biden but not nearly as much as I do Bush...I mean McCain. McCain has supported "every major issue of George W. Bush' presidency" that right there tells me hes a dik

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## BITTAPART2

BTW Im a small business owner as well but dont understand how we could get screwed more than Bush has screwed small business so far. Also, this security you speak of, this is the security we HAD when we had diplomatic relations that were good. What we have done in 8 years is lose our allies like never before because of this idiot named after a curious monkey. So he has screwed our security almost beyond repair, now you want his twin to come in and fix it with his sam policies?????? makes no sense, unless you disagree with me that GWB has pissed off almost all of our allies?? We cant afford another 4 years of this. I support offshore drilling thats all for McCain that Ii can give him, Im more interested in national security at the moment and realy disagree that McCain would be more successful at bringing together nations than Obama

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## Vincent

Bitt, I understand your point of view bro, but the world is practically blowing up and you want to put someone in the office that cant make a decision about anything. Trust me when I tell you bro if the Dems get in alot of jobs will be lost and we will be in a deeper recession than we are in now. I work directly with the rich on a daily basis and they will cut jobs of american workers. Most dems dont get to see the other side and how the wealthy operate so ther jealosy just takes over. Just calling it like it will happen.

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## Vincent

Also let me try to explain it to you this way. Your said youre a small business owner. you make for ex. 155k year now you have to pay approx 15k more in taxes under obamas plan per year. Are any of your employees going to get raises? Can you charge more for your service? Probably not. How do you fix the problem when inflation is approx 7% this year? Let me tell you paycuts and loss of jobs

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## Pooks

> If Mcain doesnt get in we are in deep trouble. My two important issues as a small business owner are taxes and the secruity of the country. The Dems want to raise taxes and Obama doesnt have a clue about foreign relations. Let me give you a example. You are a middle class person just like me and work for a big corporation. You will save about 600.00 a year if you are middle class under obamas plan. what do you think the rich business owners are going to do when they have to pay close to 35% in taxes?????? They are going to cut jobs and no raises for noone for a long time. So you can shove that 600.00 up your ass. Im in direct contact with the rich on a daily basis and thats there plan. They will not lose but we will when you dems are crying like little bitches because you have no job.



Obama does not consider the Bush Tax cuts as the current tax rate.. because the bush tax cuts are not permanent. 

When Obama says he will not raise taxes.. he is talking about the actual pre-bush cut tax rate.. cause that is the permanent tax rate.. bush rates need to pass the senate ever so often and the presidents desk to keep going, cause the democrats balk on making them permanent. 

I think with Obama's tax plus, and if he cancels the bush tax-cuts the middle class will actually be paying thousands more in taxes than they are now.

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## Roidal

Maybe the woman would have been a better dem candidate, at least she would have probably picked Obama as VP.

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## Pooks

OBAMA
BIDEN 


Car-stickers are going to be so annoying...
I would not be suprised if some one with Post Stress syndrome after the iraqi or afghan war, losses it, seeing one of those Obama bin laden stickers, n shoots people up.

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## Coop77

I think Biden was a poor choice for Obama. The only thing he adds is foreign policy experience, which the average american doesn't understand or care about anyway. He also puts his foot in his big mouth A LOT. 

Obama would have been wiser to choose someone from a big toss up state like Florida.

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## Amorphic

jesus christ, any hope of obama getting steriod users' votes is now gone.

Biden is a scumbag, what a horrid choice.

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## thegodfather

Funny you guys are discussing McCain and Obama like they are the only choices... It is unfortunate that every 4 years the American people choose the lesser of two very big evils. Both candidates believe in big government, both candidates believe in limiting civil liberties, both candidates believe in pre-emptive warfare, both candidates agree with fractional reserve banking, both candidates believe in big government bail outs, and both candidates believe in maintaining the welfare/warfare state. 

If necessary, I'm voting for *Bob Barr!*

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## Pooks

Bob Barr! Start a Bob Barr thread Godfather, lets get it going!!!!!

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## Hoggage_54

> jesus christ, any hope of obama getting steriod users' votes is now gone.
> 
> Biden is a scumbag, what a horrid choice.


 :2offtopic:  We need to get Harper out of office before he goes nuts with his drug laws.

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## Duck of Death

> THE DEMS HAVE BEEN CRYING B/ THEY HAVE HAD THEIR JOBS EXPORTED OVERSEAS SO THESE CORPERATIONS YOU SPEAK OF CAN GET TAX BREAKS. the idiots are the republicans that are middle or lower class that are so blind to what is happening they just stick to their "dont go against the grain, abortion is wrong, god is great blah blah jesus terrorism muslim bush cheney church and guns" they dont realize that ramkrishna patel just got their job so their ceo could get a tax break. I am torn now because I dislike Biden but not nearly as much as I do Bush...I mean McCain. McCain has supported "every major issue of George W. Bush' presidency" that right there tells me hes a dik


...Ahem..... could I just remind you that your boy Billy Clinton signed that darn NAFTA agreement, NOT the republicans. Also Billy Boy refused to sign a measure (passed by both houses of congress) for oil drilling in alaska which would have insured we have oil today. Democraps count on the general public having very short memories............

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## Pooks

Jobs go, and Jobs come as well..

Toyota opened up plants,, and companies always strategically place themselves in the U.S..

and U.S companies always try something, new, or a new company is started up...

Bottom line is unemployment is wicked low, compared to World Standards. 
Also unemployment has barely increased even tho we are going through tough times now (supposedly)

This ********* and ever-changing adapting of available jobs, should make the U.S at the affront and on top of things, and most advanced nation..

Nations that are protectionists, that freeze their industries and try to protect them, those are the nations that will fall behind by not having a fluid system of adaptation..

The only bad things about ever-changing jobs, is that some jobs become obsolete, and in those cases people need to get educated in new fields.. but that is small price to pay to ensure the proper development and progress of the whole country.

Besides unless the person is really just a complete lazy or dumb bum, he'll do what he needs to do to land another good job, and hopefully position himself in a industry that is expanding not shrinking.

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> jesus christ, any hope of obama getting steriod users' votes is now gone.
> 
> Biden is a scumbag, what a horrid choice.



I agree, I wasn't going to vote for him before but now he has really screwed up. 

I'm voting for McCain. Not because I want to but because he is DEFINATELY the lesser of two evils.

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## Amorphic

> We need to get Harper out of office before he goes nuts with his drug laws.


agreed.

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> OBAMA
> BIDEN 
> 
> 
> Car-stickers are going to be so annoying...
> I would not be suprised if some one with Post Stress syndrome after the iraqi or afghan war, losses it, seeing one of those Obama bin laden stickers, n shoots people up.



Yeah, no kidding. What a nightmare those two would be...

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## AandF6969

"Banning guns is an idea whos time has come" - Joe Biden
"I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training." - Biden referring to Obama

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## Amorphic

> "Banning guns is an idea whos time has come" - Joe Biden
> "I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training." - Biden referring to Obama


lol.

terrible.

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## RA

You know its funny. I knew obama reminded me of someone. Anyone see the movie the distinguished gentlemen? The speech Eddie Murphy gives when he wins the election reminds me of an obama speech.

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## JohnJenson

i think anyone running for pres thats named obama is a terrorist plot 20 years in the making : Hijack:

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## TAZ

> ...Ahem..... could I just remind you that your boy Billy Clinton signed that darn NAFTA agreement, NOT the republicans. Also Billy Boy refused to sign a measure (passed by both houses of congress) for oil drilling in alaska which would have insured we have oil today. Democraps count on the general public having very short memories............


 I agree to point. NAFTA didn't really effect the US based jobs all that much as the corps soon found that the worker reliability quality issues and basically having to micro manage those manufacturing plants down there ended up not saving them much.

What did happen during the Clinton administration was the Chinese industrial shift. This is when Wallmart and other retail chains started to boom from cheap products being made over there. The public was benefiting from cheaper goods and their dollar going further. Little did most realize that why the economy was showing that it was strong allot of jobs were moving offshore and nobody in the government did a thing about stopping it.

IMO the Democrats come up with grand schemes to get things done but they fall short in the reality of the world. That is not to say that I support what Bush has done in office either but I tend to lean toward republican philosophy of smaller federal government, shifting the taxes and legislation more to the states. 

-TAZ

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> i think anyone running for pres thats named obama is a terrorist plot 20 years in the making


Scary thought... I wonder who the "powers that be" are behind him as opposed to McCain...

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## BgMc31

> i think anyone running for pres thats named obama is a terrorist plot 20 years in the making


Real ignorant post. So of course I suspected Deputydumbdumb to agree. Every person with a muslim name is a terrorists...rrrriiiiggghhhttt!!! Somebody better holler at Muhammed Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Mushin Muhammed, etc., and let them know!

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> Real ignorant post. So of course I suspected Deputydumbdumb to agree. Every person with a muslim name is a terrorists...rrrriiiiggghhhttt!!! Somebody better holler at Muhammed Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Mushin Muhammed, etc., and let them know!



I wasn't deing serious. There is always shady stuff going on behind the scenes of campaigns. And even after the Biden thing are you really dumd enough to vote for Obama. Carlos wouldn't answer me when I Pm'ed him I wonder if you will...

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## BgMc31

^^why is it dumb for me to vote for Obama? Because some far right religious zealot like yourself says it is? I'm a staunch Obama supporter and proud of it! Do I agree with him 100%? No! But I am going to vote for a guy I agree with 75% of the time over someone I aree with 5% of the time.

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## thegodfather

> ^^why is it dumb for me to vote for Obama? Because some far right religious zealot like yourself says it is? I'm a staunch Obama supporter and proud of it! Do I agree with him 100%? No! But I am going to vote for a guy I agree with 75% of the time over someone I aree with 5% of the time.


I respect your viewpoints...However, if we lose the 2nd amendment, we lose our democracy/republic. One only needs to look to England to see the massive civil liberty violations occuring there at the hands of their legislature. Once they outlawed firearms, the public had no real recourse against tyranny. It is evident in the overtly liberal policies being passed in that country without the consent of the governed. Hillary and Obama are following the European model of Democracy, only it isn't Democracy, it is Socialism dressed up real pretty. McCain is not much better of a choice. 

BgMc...Why haven't you considered voting for Bob Barr? Why do you have to vote for one of the establishment candidates that you were given a choice of. That is really if yours or my vote matters at all, which with the electoral college system, and blackboxvoting.org, it most certainly does not, of course that is my opinion as there is no solid facts to back that up.

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## JohnJenson

> Real ignorant post. So of course I suspected Deputydumbdumb to agree. Every person with a muslim name is a terrorists...rrrriiiiggghhhttt!!! Somebody better holler at Muhammed Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Mushin Muhammed, etc., and let them know!


you're an ignorant post

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## BgMc31

^^a couple of reasons godfather...the main one being that I'm a realist. I know that a true democracy doesn't work either. If this country were a true democracy we would still be segregated. I would not have been able to marry my beautiful wife and my 3 beautiful children wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have been able to play professional football, etc., etc! Mob rule doesn't work. I'll be the 1st to admit, YES I'M VOTING FOR BARACK PARTLY BECAUSE HE'S BLACK! All my life I've heard the negative stereotypes about black men being too lazy, too dumb, or not driven enough to lead. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. This election shows my sons how truly great this country is. Even at ages 12 and 14, my sons have asked why there has never been a black president. Why there hasn't been a president that looks like them. They heard the stories from my father and his father and grandfather how they fought to liberate others even though we weren't truly liberated ourselves. So call me shallow and we all know we shouldn't vote for anyone SOLELY based on race. But I agree with his stance on making good healthcare AFFORDABLE AND AVAILABLE for everyone. The right has misconstrued Barack's position on this. He's not trying to force healthcare on anyone, he wants to make it AVAILABLE to everyone. Medicade is only available to the poor and most private insurance is expensive and not affordable enough for people everywhere. If people don't believe that they are foolish. I believe, like Obama, everyone should be able to attend college. But again not everyone can or even want to but it should be available. My daughter is on her way off to Stanford nxt year and just about every dollar I saved from being a measely special teams/practice squad player for 4 yrs is going to her education. After that, I'm hoping/praying my boys are better athletes than I am so they could get scholarships. Because after my daughter, there isn't much left. And because I'm extremely middle class, I'm too successful for grants and such but not successful enough to pay for 2 other children to go to the colleges they want to attend (Michigan and Penn State). We are falling behind in terms of education to countries who subsidize higher education to their citizens.

Now there are things (like the 2nd amendment issues and immigration) that I don't agree with Obama on. But, again, I agree with him far more than I agree with McCain. And although the Libertarian party has a lot of interesting stands, they do not have the power to effect the change I feel my children need. Those are the reasons why I'm supporting Obama. Does it make me dumb? No! Its my choice! And I would gladly compare brain pans to anyone on this forum (not directed at you godfather or blome).

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> "Banning guns is an idea whos time has come" - Joe Biden
> "I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training." - Biden referring to Obama


 You voting for him becasue he is black makes sense. You like so many others are willing to throw out the important issues for ones that are skin deep (literally) like the fact that Obama is black. You are also fooled by his eloquent speeches of how there is "Hope" and that he is going to fix everything. But he doesn't seem to know how. Just look at what his own VP choice previously said about him. Your above post furhter shows that you are ignorant. Going to a big college means big money regardless if you are white or black.

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## BgMc31

^^well if I'm ignorant than you just showed your lack of ability for reading comprehension. I said "PARTLY because he's black". Go back and try again buddy, ok?!

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> ^^well if I'm ignorant than you just showed your lack of ability for reading comprehension. I said "PARTLY because he's black". Go back and try again buddy, ok?!



Actually I have always scored very high in reading comprehension. 

You don't have to deny it, everybody knows the reason yuor voting for him is more than "Partly" because he's black.

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## thegodfather

> Actually I have always scored very high in reading comprehension. 
> 
> You don't have to deny it, everybody knows the reason yuor voting for him is more than "Partly" because he's black.


Just curious DLW, what is your education level? Do you hold a degree?

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## thegodfather

> ^^a couple of reasons godfather...the main one being that I'm a realist. I know that a true democracy doesn't work either. If this country were a true democracy we would still be segregated. I would not have been able to marry my beautiful wife and my 3 beautiful children wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have been able to play professional football, etc., etc! Mob rule doesn't work. I'll be the 1st to admit, YES I'M VOTING FOR BARACK PARTLY BECAUSE HE'S BLACK! All my life I've heard the negative stereotypes about black men being too lazy, too dumb, or not driven enough to lead. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. This election shows my sons how truly great this country is. Even at ages 12 and 14, my sons have asked why there has never been a black president. Why there hasn't been a president that looks like them. They heard the stories from my father and his father and grandfather how they fought to liberate others even though we weren't truly liberated ourselves. So call me shallow and we all know we shouldn't vote for anyone SOLELY based on race. But I agree with his stance on making good healthcare AFFORDABLE AND AVAILABLE for everyone. The right has misconstrued Barack's position on this. He's not trying to force healthcare on anyone, he wants to make it AVAILABLE to everyone. Medicade is only available to the poor and most private insurance is expensive and not affordable enough for people everywhere. If people don't believe that they are foolish. I believe, like Obama, everyone should be able to attend college. But again not everyone can or even want to but it should be available. My daughter is on her way off to Stanford nxt year and just about every dollar I saved from being a measely special teams/practice squad player for 4 yrs is going to her education. After that, I'm hoping/praying my boys are better athletes than I am so they could get scholarships. Because after my daughter, there isn't much left. And because I'm extremely middle class, I'm too successful for grants and such but not successful enough to pay for 2 other children to go to the colleges they want to attend (Michigan and Penn State). We are falling behind in terms of education to countries who subsidize higher education to their citizens.
> 
> Now there are things (like the 2nd amendment issues and immigration) that I don't agree with Obama on. But, again, I agree with him far more than I agree with McCain. And although the Libertarian party has a lot of interesting stands, they do not have the power to effect the change I feel my children need. Those are the reasons why I'm supporting Obama. Does it make me dumb? No! Its my choice! And I would gladly compare brain pans to anyone on this forum (not directed at you godfather or blome).



I am not eligible for government grants. I take unsubsidized private loans for my education. Why should I ask the tax payers of this country to subsidize my higher education? Choosing to pursue a higher education is a CHOICE made by an individual. There is no reason that I should ask the tax payers of America to pay for my education. There is also no reason that you have to put money out of your own pocket for your daughters education, that is YOUR CHOICE. She can easily get loans on her own with you as a co-signor, or even without you as a co-signor. But please, do not ask the tax payers fo this country to subsidize personal decisions made by individuals. Higher education is an investment in ones self. Yes it can be argued it benefits society as a whole, but it ultimately benefits the individual more. It should not be compulsory for the tax payers of this country to support higher education. They already subsidize the first 12 years of education, and now you want them to pay for more? 

Entitlements will bankrupt this country. At some point the needed benefits will always outweigh available capitol given enough time. 

Healthcare is not a right and higher education is not a right. 

BgMc, it really bothers me that you are able to say you are voting for Obama partially because he is black, when if I, as a white man, said I was voting for McCain or Bob Barr "partially" because they are white, I would be branded a racist, the NAACP would be down my throat, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would be outside of my house with signs and protestors. It is a horrible double standard that needs to be eliminated from our society. What are your thoughts on that?

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## FallenWyvern

> Funny you guys are discussing McCain and Obama like they are the only choices... It is unfortunate that every 4 years the American people choose the lesser of two very big evils. Both candidates believe in big government, both candidates believe in limiting civil liberties, both candidates believe in pre-emptive warfare, both candidates agree with fractional reserve banking, both candidates believe in big government bail outs, and both candidates believe in maintaining the welfare/warfare state. 
> 
> If necessary, I'm voting for *Bob Barr!*


Bob Barr 2008 = Ralph Nader 2000

It will be ironic if McCain loses because of votes that went to Barr/Paul.

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## AandF6969

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't treating someone differently because of their skin color called racism?

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## BgMc31

> I am not eligible for government grants. I take unsubsidized private loans for my education. Why should I ask the tax payers of this country to subsidize my higher education? Choosing to pursue a higher education is a CHOICE made by an individual. There is no reason that I should ask the tax payers of America to pay for my education. There is also no reason that you have to put money out of your own pocket for your daughters education, that is YOUR CHOICE. She can easily get loans on her own with you as a co-signor, or even without you as a co-signor. But please, do not ask the tax payers fo this country to subsidize personal decisions made by individuals. Higher education is an investment in ones self. Yes it can be argued it benefits society as a whole, but it ultimately benefits the individual more. It should not be compulsory for the tax payers of this country to support higher education. They already subsidize the first 12 years of education, and now you want them to pay for more? 
> 
> Entitlements will bankrupt this country. At some point the needed benefits will always outweigh available capitol given enough time. 
> 
> Healthcare is not a right and higher education is not a right. 
> 
> BgMc, it really bothers me that you are able to say you are voting for Obama partially because he is black, when if I, as a white man, said I was voting for McCain or Bob Barr "partially" because they are white, I would be branded a racist, the NAACP would be down my throat, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would be outside of my house with signs and protestors. It is a horrible double standard that needs to be eliminated from our society. What are your thoughts on that?


As usual godfather, you make very compelling arguments in regards to healthcare and higher education. But while I cannot dispute the fact that both of these are not rights, I feel that we all (and our government) have a certain level of social responsibilty when it comes to the uplifting of our own citizens less fortunate the rest of us. I firmly believe that as a country, we are measured by the way our less fortunate are treated and how competitive we are globally. Lets face it, everyday the world is getting smaller and we must educate our own citizens in order for us to stay at the top of the food chain in this growing global economy.

To answer your 2nd question, I do believe a double standard exists. But, I feel there is a difference in why I feel a racial kinship towards Obama as opposed to the whites who would vote for McCain strictly because he's white. And the reasoning has to do with my children. Now I don't expect whites to understand this and I surely don't expect anyone to agree with this either. But, in America, every parent has told their child that they can grow up to be anything they wish, if they work hard. Why can we say this? Because we can point to others as who we can relate to. Well, in the black community that hasn't always been true...until now! There has never been a black president (duh!) so there has never been an example os someone who looks like me to point to the possibilty of holding the most powerful position on the planet. If Barack wins, I can tell my children with complete honesty that there is absolutely nothing you cannot accomplish if you work hard enough.

Like I said before I don't expect whites to understand this. Nor do I speak for all blacks. This is MY reasoning. And there is no reason to get into a debate about the level of racism that exist. No one on this forum has shared my life experience 100%. Even other blacks have different experience than myself. But to me those whites who are voting for McCain because he's white are not voting for Obama because he's black. Check out this article from ABCnews.com: http://wireless.go.com/wireless/abcn...ries/5667266_1.

Hope that helps godfather.

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## thegodfather

> As usual godfather, you make very compelling arguments in regards to healthcare and higher education. But while I cannot dispute the fact that both of these are not rights, I feel that we all (and our government) have a certain level of social responsibilty when it comes to the uplifting of our own citizens less fortunate the rest of us. I firmly believe that as a country, we are measured by the way our less fortunate are treated and how competitive we are globally. Lets face it, everyday the world is getting smaller and we must educate our own citizens in order for us to stay at the top of the food chain in this growing global economy.
> 
> To answer your 2nd question, I do believe a double standard exists. But, I feel there is a difference in why I feel a racial kinship towards Obama as opposed to the whites who would vote for McCain strictly because he's white. And the reasoning has to do with my children. Now I don't expect whites to understand this and I surely don't expect anyone to agree with this either. But, in America, every parent has told their child that they can grow up to be anything they wish, if they work hard. Why can we say this? Because we can point to others as who we can relate to. Well, in the black community that hasn't always been true...until now! There has never been a black president (duh!) so there has never been an example os someone who looks like me to point to the possibilty of holding the most powerful position on the planet. If Barack wins, I can tell my children with complete honesty that there is absolutely nothing you cannot accomplish if you work hard enough.
> 
> Like I said before I don't expect whites to understand this. Nor do I speak for all blacks. This is MY reasoning. And there is no reason to get into a debate about the level of racism that exist. No one on this forum has shared my life experience 100%. Even other blacks have different experience than myself. But to me those whites who are voting for McCain because he's white are not voting for Obama because he's black. Check out this article from ABCnews.com: http://wireless.go.com/wireless/abcn...ries/5667266_1.
> 
> Hope that helps godfather.


Well as a Libertarian we see everyone as an individual. We dont put people into groups where you say "Blacks" and "the Whites"...That just serves to perpetuate the division between people. You should see yourself, and your children, as American individuals, not as "blacks"...It is such a superficial assessment of a human being.

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## BgMc31

^^in a perfect world, godfather, you would be correct. Unfortunately, this country doesn't see myself or my children as simply human beings. Unfortunately, IMO, race will always be an issue in this country. Sad but true.

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## thegodfather

> ^^in a perfect world, godfather, you would be correct. Unfortunately, this country doesn't see myself or my children as simply human beings. Unfortunately, IMO, race will always be an issue in this country. Sad but true.


Thats a big leap you're making, speaking for 350,000,000 people....Race will continue to be an issue if those on BOTH sides of the issue continue to MAKE IT AN ISSUE.

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## BgMc31

you've made by point by assuming my posts were pointing the finger at just whites. When I speak of 'this country', I speak of all Americans. There is a issue with race across the board and if you look at the ABCNEWS article I sighted you will see the a large percentage of blacks continue to experience bouts of racism. All races and ethnicities have issues with both those inside and outside their groups and those issues will never go away, IMO. And therefore ideals by those who believe otherwise are not grounded in reality...whatever realized really is.

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## SMCengineer

> But I agree with his stance on *making good healthcare AFFORDABLE AND AVAILABLE for everyone*. The right has misconstrued Barack's position on this. He's not trying to force healthcare on anyone, he wants to make it AVAILABLE to everyone. Medicade is only available to the poor and most private insurance is expensive and not affordable enough for people everywhere. If people don't believe that they are foolish.


Everyone wants healthcare to be affordable and available. Who wouldn't want that? The difference is the way in which we proceed from here. Our system of government run healthcare (a third party payer system facilitated by the government) is what's causing the millions of people that are uninsured. People don't seem to understand that adding more government into healthcare won't make it better. In fact, doing so might enable us decrease the amount of uninsured people (I'm one of them), but the quality of the healthcare system as a whole will decline. Only by eliminating the ERISA act and the HMO act will everyone truly be able to afford the best healthcare available. It goes against conventional wisdom, but our system is broken and the last thing we need to do is add fuel to the fire by exponentially increasing our debt and allowing the government to run our healthcare.

If I'm correct, the "Universal Healthcare" that Obama purposes uses Medicaid as a template. If you know anything about Medicaid you know just how inefficient and muddled with fraud it really is. Look to New York City for an example of it. Not only that, but Medicaid/Medicare is one of the programs that has the highest potentials for bankrupting us in the near future, which would cause unheard of poverty levels. So, while "Universal Healthcare" sounds like a way to solve many societal problems, it's really just a sugar coated promise that masks the real problem we face today, which is too much government intervention. It's also a way to garner votes and sound like the "good guy," while making people who are opposed to it the "evil ones." Apparently, it works. The only people Universal Healthcare really helps are those in government and the industries closely tied to them (ie pharmacetical, and insurance companies). They're the ones who seem to want it the most because they stand to benefit the most from it. Coincidentally, those same companies are also the most active in lobbying for Universal Healthcare. You still think they're putting the "common man" first or are you starting to see that there's enormous profits in it, none of which you'll see?




> I believe, like Obama, everyone should be able to attend college. But again not everyone can or even want to but it should be available. My daughter is on her way off to Stanford nxt year and just about every dollar I saved from being a measely special teams/practice squad player for 4 yrs is going to her education. After that, I'm hoping/praying my boys are better athletes than I am so they could get scholarships. Because after my daughter, there isn't much left. And because I'm extremely middle class, I'm too successful for grants and such but not successful enough to pay for 2 other children to go to the colleges they want to attend (Michigan and Penn State). We are falling behind in terms of education to countries who subsidize higher education to their citizens.


Everyone should be able to attend college and everyone can. Sometimes you just have to accept a cheaper alternative. You can't expect someone else to pay for your schooling just because you want to go to a top private university, but can't afford it.




> I feel that we all (and our government) have a certain level of social responsibilty when it comes to the uplifting of our own citizens less fortunate the rest of us. I firmly believe that as a country, we are measured by the way our less fortunate are treated and how competitive we are globally. Lets face it, everyday the world is getting smaller and we must educate our own citizens in order for us to stay at the top of the food chain in this growing global economy.


You make a good point. You do have a personal moral responsibility to give to the less fortunate. However, you don't have a right to take from me by force to give it to someone else who needs help, no matter how noble that sounds. Need I remind you that even though welfare seems like a decent "social" program, there are more people out on the street today than before we had these programs. Welfare/warfare is one of the reasons for our inflation, deficits, and boom/bust cycles that cause massive poverty. A decent state to look at as an example is New Hampshire. They have the lowest tax structure in the country and they also have the lowest poverty rate. 




> Bob Barr 2008 = Ralph Nader 2000
> 
> It will be ironic if McCain loses because of votes that went to Barr/Paul.


No it won't, it'll be a clear indicator that the Republican party needs to either return to it's original platform (small government, no nation building, constitutional governing, and personal responsibility) or prepare to continue loosing. It'll create clear schism between neoconservatives and real conservatives and hopefully deal a fatal blow to the neoconservative movement. A similar situation happened in 1964 with Barry Goldwater and the outcome was the Reagan re volution.

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> Just curious DLW, what is your education level? Do you hold a degree?


No I do not hold a degree, I will be completing my associates next year and after that I plan on persuing my masters. I've worked full time (sometimes two jobs) since I was out of school and had to due to my parents finances. So It's all on my own and now that I make a good salary I can afford to take online classes. 

I do like to think that I hold a degree in common sense  :Smilie:  

Also I agree with the libertarian way of thinking :Wink/Grin:

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## thegodfather

> No I do not hold a degree, I will be completing my associates next year and after that I plan on persuing my masters. I've worked full time (sometimes two jobs) since I was out of school and had to due to my parents finances. So It's all on my own and now that I make a good salary I can afford to take online classes. 
> 
> I do like to think that I hold a degree in common sense  
> 
> Also I agree with the libertarian way of thinking


Cool...You're a cop correct?

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## DeputyLoneWolf

> Cool...You're a cop correct?


Yes that is correct.

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