# STEROIDS FORUM > PCT (POST CYCLE THERAPY) >  PCT after test and tren

## gtgb

Im running 400mg and test and 200mg of tren E PW for 10 weeks.

Do you guys think a nolva and clomid pct is enough? or do i need HCG as well? or should i run HCG through my cycle?

24 years old, 180 pounds, 5,11" 2nd cycle, training 3 years.

thanks in advance

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## gtgb

12% bf

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## gtgb

anyone??????

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## rcks

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...avar-HCG-cycle

Read this thread.

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## rcks

Btw - you need hcg on cycle and donstinex. Mandatory if you want to recover well.

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## gtgb

> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...avar-HCG-cycle
> 
> Read this thread.


No idea how that thread is una help in any way at all!

Anyway i have read a Q + A thread from swifto and got all the answers i needed.

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## lovbyts

> No idea how that thread is una help in any way at all!
> 
> Anyway i have read a Q + A thread from swifto and got all the answers i needed.


I think his post was more to show you what NOT to do since he is clueless. He will be back soon with ED issue questions.

BTW you dont NEED HCG for recovery but some people like it due to the shrinkage issue on cycle and some use it for recovery but not mandatory. donstinex or Caber is also NOT mandatory but he needs it' due to the ED issues from not using any test on cycle. LOL

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## rcks

You do realize Tren binds to the progesterone receptor, right?

If you like having lactating tits, please, by all means, don't use dostinex.

You're the gangster, who doesn't need any pct and has some nice man tits, not me.

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## lovbyts

> You do realize Tren binds to the progesterone receptor, right?
> 
> If you like having lactating tits, please, by all means, don't use dostinex.
> 
> You're the gangster, who doesn't need any pct and has some nice man tits, not me.


you are partially correct, I don't need PCT. That's the nice thing about HRT and paying $5 a month for 3x what you need.  :Smilie: 

You are jumping in here telling members they MUST use this or that when it's not so and it's widely known and preached on this site that virtually all cycles should be run with test, yes tren also. Caber is not a MUST and most people never need it but it's good to have on hand if you do but mostly during PCT, not on cycle when you are using test. Deca , tren and most others shut down any/all natural test in your body and if you dont replace it with at least an equal amount you are looking for trouble and we have heard living proof from 1000s of members just like you.

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## gtgb

> I think his post was more to show you what NOT to do since he is clueless. He will be back soon with ED issue questions.
> 
> BTW you dont NEED HCG for recovery but some people like it due to the shrinkage issue on cycle and some use it for recovery but not mandatory. donstinex or Caber is also NOT mandatory but he needs it' due to the ED issues from not using any test on cycle. LOL


Thanks for the reply mate, and some decent advice... and not a link to some silly overdosed course :-D

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## rcks

> you are partially correct, I don't need PCT. That's the nice thing about HRT and paying $5 a month for 3x what you need. 
> 
> You are jumping in here telling members they MUST use this or that when it's not so and it's widely known and preached on this site that virtually all cycles should be run with test, yes tren also. Caber is not a MUST and most people never need it but it's good to have on hand if you do but mostly during PCT, not on cycle when you are using test. Deca, tren and most others shut down any/all natural test in your body and if you dont replace it with at least an equal amount you are looking for trouble and we have heard living proof from 1000s of members just like you.



You are absolutely right, if I had not been taking HCG during the cycle, my test levels would have dropped, obviously.

If you do take HCG, your test levels will stay stable during the cycle, depending on the dosage, sometimes increase. 

Testicles and libido will maintain during the cycle. 

But again, you have not done the research, you are just preaching what you have heard, or what the everyone stands by.

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## Markosterone

from my own experience, I have done several cycles for several years.
I use HCG almost every time, I did skipp it once on my last cycle, just did nolva and clomid, and I did feel like I did not recover as fast.
It was a short cycle of 6 weeks, so I thought I just skip it to try how it goes...

I recommend HCG, on cycle, 500units, split 250units, 2 shots per week, thruogh hole cycle.
If running enanthate ester I start HCG 2 weeks in cycle, so I can have some in the end of cycle, during the 2 week gap to PCT.

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## lovbyts

> You are absolutely right, if I had not been taking HCG during the cycle, my test levels would have dropped, obviously.
> 
> If you do take HCG, your test levels will stay stable during the cycle, depending on the dosage, sometimes increase. 
> 
> Testicles and libido will maintain during the cycle. 
> 
> But again, you have not done the research, you are just preaching what you have heard, or what the everyone stands by.


Im preaching from almost 4 years of personal experience and many blood test along the way. 6+ the first year, 4 the 2nd year, 2-3 the 3rd and 2 last year with good levels and never using HCG, not once. What are you going by?

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## gtgb

> Im preaching from almost 4 years of personal experience and many blood test along the way. 6+ the first year, 4 the 2nd year, 2-3 the 3rd and 2 last year with good levels and never using HCG, not once. What are you going by?


Lovbyts - In you opinion do you think i will be ok without HCG on this course and just running the clomid nolva/pct?

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## lovbyts

I dont think it would be bad to have on hand especially if you are worried about ball shrinkage. Some people run it through cycle. Some use it to help kick start the natural test production during PCT but many and I would venture to say most dont use it for PCT or on cycle and dont have any problem. That's why I say it's more a personal preference. 

There has been many discussions on it and most people dont bother with it. It may have a little to do with age also. For kids in their early 20s whos balls have barely dropped in the first place it may be mentally devastating to have your balls pull and look like they did when you where 10yrs old. (exaggeration). for us who are a little more mature (old to some people) a little shrinkage is nice and they still tend to swing just fine.

Like I said, from personal experience being on HRT for 4 years and never running HCG and having many blood test (proof), not just guessing or going by how I feel my blood levels have been steady and I have experienced no issues.

Again, there is nothing wrong with being to cautions either. I actually have Nolva and Clomid on hand besides an AI even though I require no PCT due to always being on test. I just dont like it when someone comes along and says you HAVE to use this or that, especially when they dont even think it's necessary to use Test as a base for a cycle. Hmmmm It's no wonder they have such a hard time kick starting the old boys and eventually they will be wondering why nothing is working for them.

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## gtgb

Thanks alot man, the problem i had was not being able to get my hands on any HCG , so if i can recover OK with just nolva and clomid then i will just use them.

Most people have said the nolva/clomid PCT will be just fine. I think i will just go with that!

looking forwarding to starting :-D

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## rcks

I never said he must use it, I said it's a must use if you want to recover well. That's it. 

Keep telling these kids to not use it, and just run test, then deal with them later, 3 months down the road, they are having problems maintaining size and their balls aren't back to normal size.

I respect your opinion, I'm sure test does work well, but there are better alternatives, like HCG . 

Good luck to you OP. Do some research on medical journals instead of following what forum members say.

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## rcks

And just for reference, I did listen to some forums "gurus" on my first cycle, ran test prop 100mg eod instead of HCG .

Everything was ok until I finished the cycle, recovery took 3 months post PCT, and I still didn't recover fully until my next cycle with HCG involved.

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## lovbyts

What do you mean you ran Test INSTEAD of HCG ? That is where you have it backwards. It's not one replacing the other. Test should be ran with ANY cycle independent of if you use HCG or not for the PCT or on cycle. Test is the base due to it is what is produced by your body and by using Tren , Deca and most of the other compounds alone without Test (that are not test) your body still thinks it's test and stop producing it; then you end up with ED issues.

Why do people get on HRT/TRT? It's not because they need HCG, it's because the body is not producing enough test. 

Where are you getting your...... I cant call them facts, theories from? I have not even heard this taught on other boards. Sounds more like a high school cycle gone wrong.

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## rcks

You fail to grasp what hcg does. It doesnt keep your balls big. It stimulates natural production of test.

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## lovbyts

> You fail to grasp what hcg does. It doesnt keep your balls big. It stimulates natural production of test.





Hcg will maintain testicular function and size while on cycle but it won't help or recover your hpta from being shut down while on cycle.

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## SaintInASinnersEyes

so if u use hcg on cycle ur natural test production doesn't get shut down ?

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## rcks

Correct.

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## jm791t

What would be a normal amount of HCG to take during and after cycle?

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## rcks

On cycle, 100ius a day. Post cycle, zero.

Read this.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...le-or-on-cycle

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## Swifto

> You fail to grasp what hcg does. It doesnt keep your balls big. It stimulates natural production of test.


You think you can use HCG and get yout TT level to where Test Prop 100mg/EOD or Test Enan at 500mg/wk, as I dont? Because thats exactly what counts and even if you could, your going to be using a boat load of HCG and may risk leydig cell desensitisaion.

HCG instead of a form of exogenous testosterone is a stupid idea and I have addressed it more than once here.

HCG at 100ius/ED is not going to get your TT level anywhere near 2,300ng/dl, which is where 600mg/wk of Test Enan will put you measured 16 weeks of use, 5 days after the TE jab.

What about testicular estrogen?

Recently, I discovered HCG should not be used ED because of refraction of the leydig cells post shot. EOD is the bare minimum time frame.

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## gtgb

Swifto is a fountain of all knowledge. 

Cant argue with that.

G

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## gtgb

Also if i was to use hcg on my cycles liek you suggest swifto, 500ius a week, 2 x 250. would i stop taking it at my last injection of test/tren E? or carry on right up until my pct (nolva/clomid) which i was going to start 14 days after my last injection?

Ive read thorugh many of your threads and i seem to have everything set out but the only thing i could find was when to stop the hcg if taking during the course.

Thanks

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## gtgb

????

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## rcks

> You think you can use HCG and get yout TT level to where Test Prop 100mg/EOD or Test Enan at 500mg/wk, as I dont? Because thats exactly what counts and even if you could, your going to be using a boat load of HCG and may risk leydig cell desensitisaion.
> 
> HCG instead of a form of exogenous testosterone is a stupid idea and I have addressed it more than once here.
> 
> HCG at 100ius/ED is not going to get your TT level anywhere near 2,300ng/dl, which is where 600mg/wk of Test Enan will put you measured 16 weeks of use, 5 days after the TE jab.
> 
> What about testicular estrogen?
> 
> Recently, I discovered HCG should not be used ED because of refraction of the leydig cells post shot. EOD is the bare minimum time frame.


I disagree with you there buddy, the more often, the better off you'll be, as it will simulate your bodies natural production.

Damage to leydig cells, only takes place from high doses, as you well know.

And I also disagree, on why you need endogenous amounts of test in your body? So you can have more losses on pct? 

If you care to elaborate on why you NEED endogenous amounts of test in your system during cycle, instead of keeping your normal range during cycle. 

I can admit if I'm wrong, but you know I'm not.

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## Swifto

> I disagree with you there buddy, the more often, the better off you'll be, as it will simulate your bodies natural production.
> 
> Damage to leydig cells, only takes place from high doses, as you well know.
> 
> And I also disagree, on why you need endogenous amounts of test in your body? So you can have more losses on pct? 
> 
> If you care to elaborate on why you NEED endogenous amounts of test in your system during cycle, instead of keeping your normal range during cycle. 
> 
> *I can admit if I'm wrong, but you know I'm not*.


No I dont. Assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups. What are you on about. Your certainly confident in your theory's arnt you.

Lets assume you do a cycle of Deca + HCG . Endogenous LH and FSH are rock bottom because of the Deca, so the only use HCG has is to stimulate endogenous testosterone production (by stumulating the testes directly) and prevent testicular dysfunction, which is exactly what it still does when your on Test Enan, or Cyp or Prop for that matter. So why not add Test Enan/Cyp/Prop clever clogs?

You see, you fail to realise that the HPTA is made of different parts and HCG ONLY addresses the testes, not the hypothalamus or pituitary so all your really doing is preventing testicular dysfunction (which I have an entire thread on thats multiple pages). You clearly dont understand how the HPTA functions during inhibition and hypogonadism. But your too stupid to take some one elses opinion and your over confidence and sheer arrogance is displayed in, "I can admit if I'm wrong, but you know I'm not.".

I've just said why your wrong to use ONLY HCG on cycle, but if you to choose ignore it, its no skin off of my nose and if your too stupid, arrogant and ignorant to understand why, go read a book on Endocrinology.

You dont even understand the terms "endogenous" and "exogenous" either.

Using HCG on cycle is only half the problem, although the testes seem to be the road block in restoring the HPTA and you dont grasp that concept. Yeah, you could use HCG on cycle with other androgens, but whats the point if you can do the same thing when using EXOGENOUS testosterone (like 500mg/wk Test Enan). HCG will still address the testes even on cycle using Test Enan and thats the reason your using it when not on Test Enan and HCG with another androgen.

Another thing for your to consider as your the one with all the answers. Have you got a study showing HCG used on eugondal males dose NOT suppress the body's own LH and FSH?

What happens if your run into labido issues using HCG + Deca, or Tren , or Winstrol , Masteron etc... As endogneous T isnt that high? Increase the dose of HCG? Then risk primary hypogonadism?

What about when testicular estrogen and progesterone build with continues use, how you planning on addressing that?

You have no idea what your talking about and going around preaching it is reckless here.

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## marcus300

> I disagree with you there buddy, the more often, the better off you'll be, as it will simulate your bodies natural production.
> 
> Damage to leydig cells, only takes place from high doses, as you well know.
> 
> And I also disagree, on why you need endogenous amounts of test in your body? So you can have more losses on pct? 
> 
> If you care to elaborate on why you NEED endogenous amounts of test in your system during cycle, instead of keeping your normal range during cycle. 
> 
> I can admit if I'm wrong, but you know I'm not.


Your wrong, you shouldn't use hcg in replace for testosterone when on cycle. Hcg will maintain testicular function but will not address the HPTA from being shutdown, the benefits of using testosterone along side other AAS on cycle are huge but there are no benefits for replacing testosterone with hcg because you will be using hcg anyway to maintain the testicular function.

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## Swifto

Lucky.

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## rcks

Hahaha. You can't even answer my simple question. 

My question was, why do you need endogenous test rather than keeping a normal range during the cycle. How will it benefit the person rather than impose more losses after the endogenous test clears?

But I'll answer your questions. Progesterone can be solved with a simple small weekly dose of dostinex and estrogen, arimidex .

So if you honestly believe that endogenous test (like test prop like you suggest) will not suppress the HPTA, then I have nothing else to add, your ignorance is too vast.

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## Swifto

> Hahaha. You can't even answer my simple question. 
> 
> My question was, why do you need endogenous test rather than keeping a normal range during the cycle. How will it benefit the person rather than impose more losses after the endogenous test clears?
> 
> But I'll answer your questions. Progesterone can be solved with a simple small weekly dose of dostinex and estrogen, arimidex .
> 
> So if you honestly believe that endogenous test (like test prop like you suggest) will not suppress the HPTA, then I have nothing else to add, your ignorance is too vast.


Endogenous testosterone IS natural testosterone. Lets just get that straight first, as you dont know that.

Its clear you really dont know what your talking about, nor do you understand how HCG addresses the testes and what its primary function is.

How will it impose "more losses" if the person is shut down anyway from the use of other androgens.

You dont have varied levels of shut down, thats it. Your hypogondal.

As for Dostinex and progesterone... I've never seen anything that shows or proves it lowers progesterone. Your getting confused (again). Dostinex lower PROLACTIN.

Have fun with your stupid theory, as it has no logic what so ever.

I'm done with talking to a brick wall.

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## Matt

> Hahaha. You can't even answer my simple question. 
> 
> My question was, why do you need endogenous test rather than keeping a normal range during the cycle. How will it benefit the person rather than impose more losses after the endogenous test clears?
> 
> But I'll answer your questions. Progesterone can be solved with a simple small weekly dose of dostinex and estrogen, arimidex .
> 
> So if you honestly believe that endogenous test (like test prop like you suggest) will not suppress the HPTA, then I have nothing else to add, your ignorance is too vast.


Lmfao, from what im reading here your suggesting that we shouldn't run test with our cycles and instead run hcg . Reason being because the test will completely shut you down and the hcg wont?? 

So wtf happens when i want to run a tren /deca cycle??? Your telling me that by adding test it will further suppress my hpta???

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## rcks

I'm not suggesting anything, I'm saying it's unnecessary to have endogenous test running around, while HCG will keep your natural production of test.

And swifto, just for future reference, name calling only makes you look weak.

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## marcus300

You are talking in riddles and its very clear you don't fully understand what your saying, endogenous testosterone is natural testosterone, it means its made inside the body.

So when you say " its unnecessary to have endogenous test running around, while hcg will keep your natural production of test" it looks like you don't understand what your saying. You have been told before about this but you simple disregard it and carry on posting endogenous testosterone.

If by any chance your mean exogenous testosterone and not endogenous testosterone, then using hcg will not stop the HPTA from being shut down because your still using androgens so using exogenous testosterone will have no negatives and nor will it further shutdown because your already are shutdown.

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## rcks

Are you guy serious now? Or are you just playing around? 

Read this. Hopefully you'll understand something I didn't write, because reading comprehension here, is somewhat scarse.


HCG THERAPY TO INCREASE NATURAL TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION IN MEN 

HUMAN CHORIONIC GONADOTROPIN (HCG) THERAPY TO STIMULATE 
THE TESTES AND INCREASE NATURAL TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION


Purpose of HCG Therapy to Stimulate Male Testes

The hormone HCG is prescribed for men in this therapy to increase natural testosterone production during the course of therapy as a result of the stimulation of the testes by the HCG. No testosterone medication is administered in this treatment. The treatment objective is to cause the male testes to naturally produce a higher volume of testosterone by HCG stimulation of his testes with the result that the patient experiences a continuing higher blood level of testosterone while on treatment. Another treatment objective is to avoid the use of any anabolic steroid and its adverse side effects upon the patient.

HCG Therapy normally increases natural testosterone production by the male testes while HCG is administered to the patient during the treatment period However, HCG Therapy can also result in a continuation of increased testosterone production and a resulting higher level of testosterone in the bloodstream after treatment is completed when the cause of the patient's low natural LH secretion by the pituitary is not due to the patient's natural genetics, aging process, injury to or loss of one or both testes; a medical disorder or disease affecting the testes, or castration.

HCG Therapy can result in a continuing higher level of natural testosterone production by the testes after HCG Therapy is completed when the underlying cause of the low LH secretion and resulting low testosterone production (1) is due to the prior use of one or more anabolic steroids by the patient or (2) due to the administration of testosterone in a prior hormone replacement therapy without the required concurrent HCG Therapy to prevent the patient's endocrine system (hypothalamus pituitary-testes axis) from shutting down the natural production of testosterone by the testes and causing testicular atrophy.


Benefits of HCG Therapy to Increase Natural Testosterone Production


Increases physical energy and elimination of chronic fatigue
Improves sex drive
Improves sexual performance
Improves mood
Reduces depression
Increases lean muscle mass
Increases strength and endurance as a result of exercise
Reduces body fat due to increased exercise
Increases sperm count and therefore male fertility
HCG Therapy can also result in a higher level of natural testosterone production after HCG Therapy is completed when the cause of a man's current low testosterone production is the prior use of anabolic steroids that shut down or reduced the pituitary gland's production of LH and decreased testosterone production.
One Single Fee for National Medical Clinic's HCG Therapy to Increase Natural Testosterone Production in Men includes the following referral service, clinic staff, medical laboratory, physician, independent pharmacy services, as well as, the dispensing and shipment of the Sermorelin, bacteriostatic water and syringes from the pharmacy directly to the patient:


Clinic Staff Services
Referral to Examining and Treating Physicians
Lab Testing
Physician Services
Physical Exam
Physician Clinical Assessment, Evaluation and Prescribed Treatment
Issuance and Delivery of Prescriptions to Pharmacy
Independent Pharmacy Services
Pharmacy Dispensed Medication, Water for Injection and Syringes Shipped Directly to You
Written Treatment Instructions e-mailed to you
A 15 Minute Consultation with a Medical Counselor if you have any questions about the treatment instructions or reconstituting the HCG
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)

HCG is compounded by a compounding pharmacy or manufactured by pharmaceutical company in 10,000 IU (International Units) for reconstitution with sterile water for injections in 10 cc vials.

HCG is a natural protein hormone secreted by the human placenta and purified from the urine of pregnant women. HCG hormone is not a natural male hormone but mimics the natural hormone LH (Luteinizing Hormone) almost identically. As a result of HCG stimulating the testes in the same manner as LH, HCG therapy increases testosterone production by the testes or male gonads as a result of HCG's stimulating effect on the leydig cells of the testes.

The Decline in Gonadal Stimulating Pituitary Hormone LH (Leutenizing hormone)

The natural decline in male testosterone production that occurs with aging is attributed to a decline in the gonadal stimulating pituitary hormone LH (Luteinizing hormone). As a result of the hypothalamus secreting less gonadoropin-releasing hormone (GhRH), which stimulates the pituitary gland to produce LH, the pituitary gland produces declining amounts of LH. This decrease in the pituitary secretion of LH reduces the stimulation of the gonads or male testes and results in declining testosterone and sperm production due to the decreased function of the gonads. The decreased stimulation of the testes by the pituitary's diminished secretion of LH can also cause testicular atrophy. HCG stimulates the testis in the same manner as naturally produced. HCG Therapy is administered medically to increase male fertility by stimulating the testes to produce more sperm cells and thereby increase sperm count or Spermatogenesis.

The decreased stimulation of the testes by the pituitary's diminished secretion of LH can also cause testicular atrophy. HCG stimulates the testis in the same manner as naturally produced. HCG Therapy is administered medically to increase male fertility by stimulating the testes to produce more sperm cells and thereby increase sperm count or Spermatogenesis.

How HCG Therapy Increases Plasma Testosterone Level in Hypogonadotropic Men

HCG therapy uses the body's own biochemical stimulating mechanisms to increase plasma testosterone level during HCG therapy. It is used to stimulate the testes of men who are hypogonadal or lack sufficient testosterone. The male endocrine system is responsible for causing the testes to produce testosterone. The HPTA (hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis) regulates the level of testosterone in the bloodstream. and . The hypothalamus produces gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH), which stimulates the pituitary gland to release Leutenizing hormone (LH).

LH released by the pituitary gland then travels from the pituitary via the blood stream to the testes where it triggers the production and release of testosterone. Without the continuing release of LH by the pituitary gland, the testes would shut down their production of testosterone, causing testicular atrophy and stopping natural testosterone produced by the testes.

As men age the volume of hypothalamus produced gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) declines and causes the pituitary gland to release less Luteinizing hormone (LH). The reduction if the volume of LH released by the Pituitary gland decreases the available LH in the blood stream to stimulate the testes to produce testosterone.

In males, HCG mimics LH and increases testosterone production in the testes. As such, HCG is administered to patients to increase endogenous (natural) testosterone production. The HCG medication administered combines with the patient's own naturally available LH released into the blood stream by the Pituitary gland and thereby increases the stimulation of the testes to produce more testosterone than that produced by the Pituitary released LH alone. The additional HCG added to the blood stream combined with the Pituitary gland's naturally produced LH triggers a greater volume of testosterone production by the testes, since HCG mimics LH and adds to the total stimulation of the testes.

Clinical Pharmacology - HCG:

The action of HCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although HCG appears to have a small degree of FSH activity as well. It stimulates production of gonadal steroid hormones by stimulating the interstitial cells (Leydig cells) of the testis to produce androgens.

Thus HCG sends the same message and results in increased testosterone production by the testis due to HCG's effect on the leydig cells of the testis. HCG therapy uses the body's own biochemical stimulating mechanisms to increase plasma testosterone level.

Following intramuscular injection, an increase in serum HCG concentrations may be observed within 2 hours; peak HCG concentrations occur within about 6 hours and persist for about 36 hours. Serum HCG concentrations begin to decline at 48 hours and approach baseline (undetectable) levels after about 72 hours.

HCG is not a steroid and is administered to assists the body in the continuing production of its own natural testosterone as a result of LH signals stimulating production of testosterone by the testis.

This LH stimulates the production of testosterone by the testes in males. Thus HCG sends the same message as LH to the testes and results in increased testosterone production by the testes due to HCG's effect on the leydig cells of the testes. In males, hCG mimics LH and helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes. If HCG is used for too long and in too high a dose, the resulting rise in natural testosterone will eventually inhibit its own production via negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary.

HCG therapy uses the body's own biochemical stimulating mechanisms to increase plasma testosterone level during HCG therapy. It is used to stimulate the testes of men who are hypogonadal or lack sufficient testosterone

National Medical Clinic, Inc.

National Medical Clnic, Inc. (NMC) (http://www.nationalmedicalclinic.com) is a national patient medical services management corporation with the administrative offices located in Boca Raton, Florida. We also cooridinate a national physician's network and a national physician referral service. The Physicians's national network is The National Organization of American Physicians™ and the national physician referral service is Physicians Referral Service™ (http://www.physicianreferralservice.org)

NMC Negotiates and secures agreements nationally with physicians, diagnostic medical laboratories and compounding pharmacies in the United States to provide services to our patients. We providethe physicians, laboratory blood testingk and compounding pharmacy services required with regard to each of our medical treatments to patients enrolled in a medical treatment for a single fee amount. We also coordinate the rendering of physician services, lab testing services and pharmacy services rendered to patients during treatment and pay all the participating providers in our national system for the services rendered to our patients. The exception to this process is that patients located in NY, NJ and RI purchase medical laboratory services directly from the laboratory pursuant to their medical insurans or on a cash basis because of applicable laws in those states.

A Valid Prescription Based Upon the Physician's Physical Examination and Evaluation of the Patient are Required for all National Medical Clinic, Inc.'s Physician Prescribed Treatments

National Medical Clinic requires that its physicians obtain a medical complaint and medical history from each of patient, conduct a physical examination, perform a patient clinical assessment, complete a patient evaluation, render a diagnosis and obtain an indication that that the medication is prescribed for a valid medical purpose in the normal course of professional practice prior to prescribing treatment. NMC physicians do not prescribe any controlled substance prescription drugs to patients referred to them by National Medical Clinic, Inc. NMC physicians utilize medical treatments that cause the human body to naturally produce the desired treatment result where possible; i.e., use of Sermorelin Acetate growth hormone - releasing hormone to cause the pituitary gland to increase the natural production of human growth hormone within the protections afforded the patient by their endocrine system; and the administration of human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) to stimulate the male testes to increase natural production of testosterone and to treat male infertility. Prescription drugs with significant adverse side effects are not to be prescribed patients of National Medical Clinic, Inc.

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## marcus300

You don't understand what you keep posting and your blinded by your ignorance, we know what hcg does but it wont stop the HPTA from being shutdown.

I suggest you do more research on the HPTA, its like banging my head against a brick wall

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## rcks

Nothing will stop the HPTA from shutting down. You honestly think injectingexcessive test will keep the HPTA from shutting down?

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## D7M

> Nothing will stop the HPTA from shutting down. You honestly think injectingexcessive test will keep the HPTA from shutting down?


I think you're confused. 

No one is arguing that.

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## Matt

> Nothing will stop the HPTA from shutting down. You honestly think injectingexcessive test will keep the HPTA from shutting down?


Yeah mate your getting confused here...

If i was to run a cycle which included Hcg , tren and dbol my hpta will become fully suppressed, end of argument...

If i was to run a cycle which included, test, tren and dbol then my hpta would become fully suppressed, end of argument.....

I would never add test in the hope that it would stop my hpta from shutting down, thats not the reason i add it, i do so for such things as well being and libido...

You are correct, "Nothing will stop the HPTA from shutting down", so if this is going to happen anyway why not add test??? 
m

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## rcks

> Yeah mate your getting confused here...
> 
> If i was to run a cycle which included Hcg , tren and dbol my hpta will become fully suppressed, end of argument...
> 
> If i was to run a cycle which included, test, tren and dbol then my hpta would become fully suppressed, end of argument.....
> 
> I would never add test in the hope that it would stop my hpta from shutting down, thats not the reason i add it, i do so for such things as well being and libido...
> 
> You are correct, "Nothing will stop the HPTA from shutting down", so if this is going to happen anyway why not add test??? 
> m


 It will make it more difficult to maintain muscle mass post cycle. Simple. That's my point. I'm not arguing it isn't going to benefit you during the cycle, but after the cycle is over, you will see more loss in muscle rather than if you simply maintained a steady and normal level of test with HCG injections. 

That's all I'm saying.

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## Swifto

> It will make it more difficult to maintain muscle mass post cycle. Simple. That's my point. I'm not arguing it isn't going to benefit you during the cycle, but after the cycle is over, you will see more loss in muscle rather than if you simply maintained a steady and normal level of test with HCG injections. 
> 
> That's all I'm saying.


Are you aware that HCG can have a suppressive effect itself by increasing androgen, estrogen and progesterone levels. Not to mention, the body may lower or stop endogenous LH as your using something that mimics it, which is what the body does for most hormone's or ganadotropins. An example being a GnRH agonist, such as Triptorelin used, will cause cessation of endogenous GnRH.

You quite clearly dont know what your doing or talking about. 

Tell me... What do you think happens to natural (as you still dont know what endogenous means) testosterone levels if one were to use HCG + Deca or Tren for 6 weeks?

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## rcks

Ok buddy. Keep telling these kids to do cycles without hcg and deal with them later complaining they can't maintain an erection.

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## Swifto

> Ok buddy. Keep telling these kids to do cycles without hcg and deal with them later complaining they can't maintain an erection.


You have to be one of the stupidest members I have ever encountered in around 7 years on these boards.

What the f*ck are you on about? 

*I have a 12 page thread on USING HCG ON CYCLE! 
*
Thats pretty much also a Q&A. Here: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...rtant+is+it%3F

So where did I state, "Dont do HCG on cycle?"

Again, you have no idea what your talking about, not a clue.

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## marcus300

> You have to be one of the stupidest members I have ever encountered in around 7 years on these boards.
> 
> What the f*ck are you on about? 
> 
> *I have a 12 page thread on USING HCG ON CYCLE! 
> *
> Thats pretty much also a Q&A. Here: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...rtant+is+it%3F
> 
> So where did I state, "Dont do HCG on cycle?"
> ...


Agreed^^

He doesnt understand what he reads or what he says, if the complaints are anything to go by he is top of the pile for bad advice.

He didnt know what endogenous testosterone meant so its pointless in even trying anymore, he just wont read and understand what is being said. lol

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## NotConvincedYet

Ha! This is one funny post. I know it's old, but worth a comment. It's now helped me understand a lot more. Also points to good info by Swifto on HCG . 

I have certainly benefited by reading this. Thank you Swifto and others who persisted. Your banging your head against a brick wall has had a positive result in this circumstance!  :7up: 

A

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## Swifto

> Ha! This is one funny post. I know it's old, but worth a comment. It's now helped me understand a lot more. Also points to good info by Swifto on HCG . 
> 
> I have certainly benefited by reading this. Thank you Swifto and others who persisted. Your banging your head against a brick wall has had a positive result in this circumstance! 
> 
> A


Good, all is not wasted.

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## lovbyts

> Agreed^^
> 
> He doesnt understand what he reads or what he says, if the complaints are anything to go by he is top of the pile for bad advice.
> 
> He didnt know what endogenous testosterone meant so its pointless in even trying anymore, he just wont read and understand what is being said. lol


Can I pick them or can I pick them? LOL At least you guys know I dont blow smoke and only call them out where I see a real problem. Thanks again guys for keeping this place and the people here inline with honest and accurate information.

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