# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > BOXING / FIGHTING / WRESTLING >  Is Frank Shamrock natural or he uses some Juice

## sonar1234

Man is he ever cut up.

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## USfighterFC

Thats a tough question to be honest. He's been in great shape for all of his fights and he look bulked up as ever for the tito ortiz fight.

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## catabolic kid

That is a very good/tough question.

I am not too familiar with Frank Shamrock.

What weight does he normally compete at? 

Was he at LHW when he fought TITO...205 limit??

How much weight did he gain for that fight and how long did he have to do it?

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## BigRandy

i think he is natural. ive always seen him in great shape

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## Smart-tony

He's on all them supplements we see on tv! :LOL:

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## RMBros

Man, I'm betting Coture, Shamrock, and Hughes are all on.

It's hard to keep that much clean weight on when you're fighting and training that hard.

No real evidence other than the fact that Randy and Ken are both over the age when it's easy to keep that mass on and Matt made some really fast gains from skinny punk to muscular and ripped.

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## BOUNCER

Its hard to say. But remember we're talking about athletes in supreme condition. Look at most rugby players, bigger and just as lean and tested regularly.

I'd bet Frank is clean.

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## BigRandy

> Man, I'm betting Coture, Shamrock, and Hughes are all on.
> 
> It's hard to keep that much clean weight on when you're fighting and training that hard.
> 
> No real evidence other than the fact that Randy and Ken are both over the age when it's easy to keep that mass on and Matt made some really fast gains from skinny punk to muscular and ripped.


id say randy the unnatural uses gh. i agree w/ u about hughes. and ken admitted to using aas

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## JJEB2

a friend of mine read his book and he says he makes note of using steroids .

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## scriptfactory

> id say randy the unnatural uses gh. i agree w/ u about hughes. and ken admitted to using aas


Agreed. A large percentage of professional MMA fighters use or have used at some point in their career.

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## BG

Ken definitly, has real bad gyno, he also has a hard time hiding the rage. Ive seen him fluxuate in size, his biggest was when he was in the WWE. I saw him from about 10 ft away back to me, let me tell you, I was amazed I thought he had a muscle suit on, he was about 5ft wide.

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## ManWhore

> Ken definitly, has real bad gyno, he also has a hard time hiding the rage. Ive seen him fluxuate in size, his biggest was when he was in the WWE. I saw him from about 10 ft away back to me, let me tell you, I was amazed I thought he had a muscle suit on, he was about 5ft wide.



This is 100% true

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## pelly789

lol frank? i think you meant ken shamrock and its hard to tell if he is natural or not i tend to doubt it he was in the wwf and all before this ufc stuff and just about no one in wrestling is natural...and he is a freak punches himself in the face to get himself pumped up id be scared of him

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## BigRandy

> lol frank? i think you meant ken shamrock and its hard to tell if he is natural or not i tend to doubt it he was in the wwf and all before this ufc stuff and just about no one in wrestling is natural...and he is a freak punches himself in the face to get himself pumped up id be scared of him


no he meant frank. frank and ken are brothers

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## Timm1704

ken admits to using test and primobolan , and im sure he mentioned afew others. as for frank, id guess he likely has used, he looks great and fights great. i wouldnt be suprised if he didnt use AAS though, as i think with his lifestyle and dedication its ofcourse possible

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## groundandpoundpwr21

Kens books the lion den tell about his aas usuage but not specific compounds. Id have to say tito, randy, frank are natural. they probably walk about at 230 not during prefight time. And weighing 205 isnt alot for someone 6 feet tall. PLus tito claimed to either max or workout I cant remember at 315. I saw randy doing bent over barbel rows with 225 nothing impressive. So Id say its superb conditioning. Also I say the training video for tito v randy and I think tito was only squating 405. YOu have to think about all the cardio these guys do including road work/jimp rope, then all there mma training(sparring,bjj) is all hardcore cardio. Prime example I was 185-195 my sophmore year of college dont know the bf, but after 12 weeks of pledging getting the piss hazed out of me and working out 4 days a week weights only I was 205 at 8% bf. Natural and this was binge drinking, eating garbage, puking several times a day ect. You dont need juice to be in good shape at minimal weight.

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## AnabolicBoy1981

impretty sure frank is clean, but when i met him i was not impressed with his bod or his dieting. sometimes frank doesnt look so good. sometimes he looks flat and not as ripped or big.
I think he has periods of laziness temporaryaly where he lets himself go.

ken juices, yeah. i dont remember him having gyno though

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## groundandpoundpwr21

ab check out tito vs. ken. The leaner ken gets the more pronounced his gyno is.

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## Gettin Big

all those guys in ufc and pride take performance enhancers of some kind, trust me a good guess is 95+% of them use something, it is so hard to put the muscle on that these guys have with the amount of training they do, they burn an amazing amount of calories every day and they eat a ton of food and take enhancers to keep the muscle on, thats my $.02 worth

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## sp9

I think alot of people ar fooling themselves if they believe these guys are not using. Usually you can see their secret by looking back at historical matches, like how skinny Bs was at the first ever pancrase event.

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## catabolic kid

> I think alot of people ar fooling themselves if they believe these guys are not using. Usually you can see their secret by looking back at historical matches, like how skinny Bs was at the first ever pancrase event.


Are you saying Bas uses...?

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## sp9

The first fight I have of Frank was against Alan Goes on 5/13/1995 - Lets just say in this case his body has not aged or gotten weaker in 11 years.

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## sp9

> Are you saying Bas uses...?


I am saying my best guess is that he did at one point. Look at his body on 9/21/1993 then just a few fights later there is at least another 20-30 lbs of rock solid muscle. 

I was not there, so just as any other thread like this, it is up to your own judgement to make a guess.

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## pelly789

oh..opps sorry about that i should think before i talk next time i didnt even know he had a brother?!? o well sorry agian i didnt know now i feel like an as*hole :Don't know:

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## sp9

Actually the difference in Bas weight and muscle is amazing looking at 9/21/1993 vs. when he first fought Ken Shamrock on 7/26/1994.

So in 10 months he packed on some serious rock hard muscle with no fat.

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## catabolic kid

> Actually the difference in Bas weight and muscle is amazing looking at 9/21/1993 vs. when he first fought Ken Shamrock on 7/26/1994.
> 
> So in 10 months he packed on some serious rock hard muscle with no fat.


I have not seen those clips recently but I do remember that he did get bigger. One thing I will say is that it seems like he has maintained that size. Maybe before he never lifted and later he realized that lifting would help him. I dont know...?

Have you seen that shirt he wears? It says "you can buy muscles (steroids ), but you cannot buy cahognes." 

Like you said, it is just speculation, but I would never have thought that he used.

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## sp9

> I have not seen those clips recently but I do remember that he did get bigger. One thing I will say is that it seems like he has maintained that size. Maybe before he never lifted and later he realized that lifting would help him. I dont know...?
> 
> Have you seen that shirt he wears? It says "you can buy muscles (steroids ), but you cannot buy cahognes." 
> 
> Like you said, it is just speculation, but I would never have thought that he used.


I am watching the dvd's right now, will try to snap a couple shots for you to look at the 10 month difference.

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## catabolic kid

> I am watching the dvd's right now, will try to snap a couple shots for you to look at the 10 month difference.


OK, just listening to some of the things he says would make me think he is clean. He always was trying to get Kerr to loose weight when he was training him. He just does not seem like a "cheater."

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## catabolic kid

Oh, and for those of you who think Randy juiced:

There is no way.

Look back at when he was in the HW division. He was always 225 pounds and lean, but never ripped. And, I believe in his fight with Randleman (my favorite) he gained a little weight...and it was easy to see that is was not all lean body mass. Again, Randy was only 225 fighting in the heavyweight division. He could have gained another 25 pounds with juice and therefore could have been like 250 ripped like KERR and COLEMAN...but he chose not to. There is no way that Randy juiced.

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## sp9

> OK, just listening to some of the things he says would make me think he is clean. He always was trying to get Kerr to loose weight when he was training him. He just does not seem like a "cheater."


Not saying he is a cheater:

1) There has to be a rule broken to be a cheater. 
2) You can do a couple of cycles and work hard and retain most of it.
3) He could have put on 15lbs -20lbs naturally in 10 months but that's hard with fight training and fighting 6 times in a 10 month period. 

I am not calling him out. It is just an amazing transformation and whether or not he used somethign it still took alot of hard work and dedication from him. I am a huge fan of his. 

The truth is, we will never be sure what the truth is:

** First picture is 9/21/1993 - 2nd and 3rd are 10 months later - 7/26/1994. In that time period (inclusive of those 2) he fought 7 times. **

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## sp9

> Oh, and for those of you who think Randy juiced:
> 
> There is no way.
> 
> Look back at when he was in the HW division. He was always 225 pounds and lean, but never ripped. And, I believe in his fight with Randleman (my favorite) he gained a little weight...and it was easy to see that is was not all lean body mass. Again, Randy was only 225 fighting in the heavyweight division. He could have gained another 25 pounds with juice and therefore could have been like 250 ripped like KERR and COLEMAN...but he chose not to. There is no way that Randy juiced.


While I believe Randy did not juice like randleman, coleman, or Kerr, there are different drugs, and different workout approaches, and diets.

I think we can not say for sure if Randy juiced or did GH in the past. 

Here are a couple of pictures of Kerr vs Randy in college wrestling and one of Randleman.

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## BigRandy

> oh..opps sorry about that i should think before i talk next time i didnt even know he had a brother?!? o well sorry agian i didnt know now i feel like an as*hole


no worries. i read that they had a falling out so maybe thats why many ppl dont know they are brothers

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## BigRandy

> Oh, and for those of you who think Randy juiced:
> 
> There is no way.
> 
> Look back at when he was in the HW division. He was always 225 pounds and lean, but never ripped. And, I believe in his fight with Randleman (my favorite) he gained a little weight...and it was easy to see that is was not all lean body mass. Again, Randy was only 225 fighting in the heavyweight division. He could have gained another 25 pounds with juice and therefore could have been like 250 ripped like KERR and COLEMAN...but he chose not to. There is no way that Randy juiced.


the main thing people have to remember though (not you specifically) is that these guys use gear for performance enhancement, not always looking to gain muscle. i think professional mma fighters use juice to help their bodies recover from 4-8 hrs of training daily.

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## BigRandy

i mean gear has been known to be used in tennis, swimming and other sports at a professional level and those atheletes arent ones you could look at and tell they were on something

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## catabolic kid

> While I believe Randy did not juice like randleman, coleman, or Kerr, there are different drugs, and different workout approaches, and diets.
> 
> I think we can not say for sure if Randy juiced or did GH in the past. 
> 
> Here are a couple of pictures of Kerr vs Randy in college wrestling and one of Randleman.


You know a wrestlers mentality....wrestle at the lowest possible weight...they are known for their extreme diets and weight cutting. Plus, in NCAA wrestling, the weight classes go from like 197 all the way to 275. There are not any weight classes in between that...so he had to pretty much wrestle at a low weight for his body type.

Also. lets say that was a pic of Randy wrestling at 197 ( ibelieve this is the class he was in) If he wrestled at 197, you know he was cutting weight for that. He probably was on a very strict diet (almost malnourishment considering all of the training wrestlers do). If he competed at 197, he was probably walking around at 205. 205 being his weight when he was on a very strict diet. If he were not always starving himself and trying to loose weight for wrestling...he very easily could have weighed in at 220 or 225.

Also, just wanted to add that I had a close friend in high school who was a great wrestler, and like all wrestlers, he was cutting to the lowest weight he could possibly compete at. After the season was over, he would gain like 15 pounds in 1 week...and he was only 125 lb or so...big increase in weight just by getting out of that wrestling lifestyle.

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## catabolic kid

> the main thing people have to remember though (not you specifically) is that these guys use gear for performance enhancement, not always looking to gain muscle. i think professional mma fighters use juice to help their bodies recover from 4-8 hrs of training daily.


I see your point, and I have not overlooked that. But, dont you think that some extra weight and strength would have helped Randy while he was fighting HW? Look at what it did for Kerr and Coleman.

Also, the example you used about tennis players...yes, they would benefit from it from the increase in power. However, if they were to gain weight, it would decrease their performance. With Randy, the added weight would have helped him since he was consistently outweighed in his fights.

I just think that if he used, he would have taken advantage of the increase in BW like Kerr and Coleman..because the extra weight would have really helped Randy.

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## BigRandy

> I see your point, and I have not overlooked that. But, dont you think that some extra weight and strength would have helped Randy while he was fighting HW? Look at what it did for Kerr and Coleman.
> 
> Also, the example you used about tennis players...yes, they would benefit from it from the increase in power. However, if they were to gain weight, it would decrease their performance. With Randy, the added weight would have helped him since he was consistently outweighed in his fights.


yeah i do believe the added weight/strength would have helped randy as a hw. the main reason why i thought randy used some type of gear was the type of shape/conditioning he was in at his age. people talk and say it was a new diet he was on or how he doesnt abuse his body, and i think those were factors to but at his age getting stronger, more fit id say the natural wasnt natural.

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## catabolic kid

> yeah i do believe the added weight/strength would have helped randy as a hw. the main reason why i thought randy used some type of gear was the type of shape/conditioning he was in at his age. people talk and say it was a new diet he was on or how he doesnt abuse his body, and i think those were factors to but at his age getting stronger, more fit id say the natural wasnt natural.


That is your opinion, and I respect it since you have made legitimate points.

But, I do not agree.

I do believe that it was his diet. He seems like the type of guy who outworks everyone...and would do everything in his power (without breaking rules) to be in his best shape. I know that he also has strength and conditioning coaches along with a nutrition coach. He was doing everything right and had a lot of help from expert trainers. Really, at 205 he was actually pretty small....look at his arms and especially legs...TITO looked like he was about 20 pounds heavier! Also, what makes you think that he got stronger...?

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## BigRandy

> That is your opinion, and I respect it since you have made legitimate points.
> 
> But, I do not agree.
> 
> I do believe that it was his diet. He seems like the type of guy who outworks everyone...and would do everything in his power (without breaking rules) to be in his best shape. I know that he also has strength and conditioning coaches along with a nutrition coach. He was doing everything right and had a lot of help from expert trainers. Really, at 205 he was actually pretty small....look at his arms and especially legs...TITO looked like he was about 20 pounds heavier! Also, what makes you think that he got stronger...?


yeah man it was just my opinion. neither of us will probably ever know the truth. he was small at lw. he had tiny calves.  :LOL:

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## catabolic kid

Sp9...I did not even notice your post with the pics of rutten. The second pic is the biggest that I have ever seen bas.

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## catabolic kid

> yeah man it was just my opinion. neither of us will probably ever know the truth. he was small at lw. he had tiny calves.


Yeah, he is an awesome athlete though. I love how he dropped down to 205 and (at around 40) demolished Chuck...then TITO and then VITOR...that was great.

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## Hunter

> You know a wrestlers mentality....wrestle at the lowest possible weight...they are known for their extreme diets and weight cutting. Plus, in NCAA wrestling, the weight classes go from like 197 all the way to 275. There are not any weight classes in between that...so he had to pretty much wrestle at a low weight for his body type.
> 
> Also. lets say that was a pic of Randy wrestling at 197 ( ibelieve this is the class he was in) If he wrestled at 197, you know he was cutting weight for that. He probably was on a very strict diet (almost malnourishment considering all of the training wrestlers do). If he competed at 197, he was probably walking around at 205. 205 being his weight when he was on a very strict diet. If he were not always starving himself and trying to loose weight for wrestling...he very easily could have weighed in at 220 or 225.
> 
> Also, just wanted to add that I had a close friend in high school who was a great wrestler, and like all wrestlers, he was cutting to the lowest weight he could possibly compete at. After the season was over, he would gain like 15 pounds in 1 week...and he was only 125 lb or so...big increase in weight just by getting out of that wrestling lifestyle.


Excellent points espicially on wrestling. The extreme weight cutting has lead to water hydration tests being implimented in minnesota I know for a fact but I believe the nation in 2006-2007 season. I dont think Randy juiced but I could be wrong. For example the average amount of weight cutting on our team was around 15 pounds well most of us seniors cut between 20-30 pounds. I cut 25 pounds for my final 2 seasons and my friend cut 30. So randy at 197 in college its very likely he did walk around at 215-225. Excellent points by everyone on this thread

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## dingobite

I cant agree randy is all natural myself his change to my eyes went from frail 200+ to huge 200+ barely any smaller than triple H. I was shocked when i saw him after the broken arm deal he looked like he gained some real hvywt muscle. When he walked down to meet HhH for the hvywt challenge i didnt mind his bulking up one bit. When he stood infront of HHH though  :What?:  His 225lbs as you say he weighs looked like 250lbs he almost looked like he was dwarfing HhH in size.

I weigh 200lbs now like alot of other people here if i dieted to loose weight cut out some of the protiens one or two things will happen for me within 2 months. Ill be a lean 180lbs loosing water from my midsection and be fine or i may even for a first time loose some muscle size with it.

I think he was on something i dont doubt it considering the last 3 years alot of wrestlers where putting on some decent ripped muscle.



Both pics have randy and HHH randy has some size in them. 
Pics are small though.  :Smilie:

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## BigRandy

those pics arent of randy couture

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## Sharky72

Thought I was losing my mind Lol

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## RMBros

> That is your opinion, and I respect it since you have made legitimate points.
> 
> But, I do not agree.
> 
> I do believe that it was his diet. He seems like the type of guy who outworks everyone...and would do everything in his power (without breaking rules) to be in his best shape. I know that he also has strength and conditioning coaches along with a nutrition coach. He was doing everything right and had a lot of help from expert trainers. Really, at 205 he was actually pretty small....look at his arms and especially legs...TITO looked like he was about 20 pounds heavier! Also, what makes you think that he got stronger...?


Part of the issue has to be the way that they treat Bonds and others who gain muscle after they turn 33 or so.

In baseball, it's considered complete proof of usage to gain that much weight late in your career. Why wouldn't the same logic extend to MMA or any other sport?

Not saying that proves anything, just saying that's the way people think.

One other reason for folks in any sport to use is additional red blood cell production - that's why world class bicyclers used to use - other drugs do that without the weight gain now.

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## catabolic kid

> I cant agree randy is all natural myself his change to my eyes went from frail 200+ to huge 200+ barely any smaller than triple H. I was shocked when i saw him after the broken arm deal he looked like he gained some real hvywt muscle. When he walked down to meet HhH for the hvywt challenge i didnt mind his bulking up one bit. When he stood infront of HHH though  His 225lbs as you say he weighs looked like 250lbs he almost looked like he was dwarfing HhH in size.
> 
> I weigh 200lbs now like alot of other people here if i dieted to loose weight cut out some of the protiens one or two things will happen for me within 2 months. Ill be a lean 180lbs loosing water from my midsection and be fine or i may even for a first time loose some muscle size with it.
> 
> I think he was on something i dont doubt it considering the last 3 years alot of wrestlers where putting on some decent ripped muscle.
> 
> 
> 
> Both pics have randy and HHH randy has some size in them. 
> Pics are small though.


Nice post, but we are talking about Randy Couture, not the pro wrestler, Randy Orton.

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## catabolic kid

Whenever someone is in great shape, it does not mean that they juice....there is such a thing as hard work. Randys physique and conditioning are very attainable, with dedication and a well thought out program, at his age.

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## BG

> Whenever someone is in great shape, it does not mean that they juice....there is such a thing as hard work. Randys physique and conditioning are very attainable, with dedication and a well thought out program, at his age.


I agree, he might have juiced years ago but he looks like a normal wrestlers body, my two friends and I when we stand together with shirts off we all have a similar build, nothing compared to our friends that did not wrestle, for what ever thats worth. :Wink/Grin:

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## Timm1704

lol clearly dingobite didnt read the actual thread. as for randy orton, he probably does use AAS as he is in the WWE and has a half decent physique. i dont think he looks that good tho. he does compared to the average guy on the street, but next to pretty much everyone else in the WWE, he looks like a child. anyway, back to the actual thread....

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## dingobite

Ehh thats me again.  :Asskiss:  

At first i thought those pics where of the 20 year old in wwe.












Courture may have been on moderate aas in his earlier days and built off that i think hes super clean now. 
Frank just doesnt seem all that natural though heck he was more ripped than a few of the serious 7 foot tall aas junkies in the old WWF or anyone of them without a beer gut. I could only dream franks kept it clean to date otherwise im ? :Haha:

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## groundandpoundpwr21

Steroids in mma are like a totsie pop, the world may never know. Ken admitted it, sylvia tested positive, horn i think tested positive, everyone saw kerrs video though he was on that painkiller shit that was real addictive forget the name but they never showed him with any jucie that i remember. So until people are cought, you become best buds, or they admit it youll never know.

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## groundandpoundpwr21

OK brain farts over, kerr was on nubian.

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## catabolic kid

> OK brain farts over, kerr was on nubian.


Kerr was on Nubain along with other pain killers. I looked closely and saw 23 gague 1.5 inch needles (IM injections) and also there were humulin r vials.

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## AnabolicBoy1981

i dunno, i just remember one time i was riding somwhere with mario yamasaki and i just randomly asked him who juices and every name i asked he was like "yup"
the only one i remember from that convo was Wanderle Silva

i wished i'd taken notes

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## BigRandy

> i dunno, i just remember one time i was riding somwhere with mario yamasaki and i just randomly asked him who juices and every name i asked he was like "yup"
> the only one i remember from that convo was Wanderle Silva
> 
> i wished i'd taken notes


sounds cool. did you meet him at a UFC event?

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## ahammer86

like 4 or 5 years ago in an interview frank shamrock admitted experimenting with steroids in the very late 90's but if i can recall in the interview he was trying to get a point across that he doesnt need them and that was just a specific time in his life.

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## AnabolicBoy1981

> sounds cool. did you meet him at a UFC event?


No. i took jiu jitsu under him for a year. He's a cool guy. We even went clubbin together once.

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## USfighterFC

> OK brain farts over, kerr was on nubian.



Kerr was on a lot more than Nubain. You name the script and he was on it. He was very fond of opiate based painkillers.

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## sonar1234

frank shamrock website has changed so much, before he used to talk about the benefits of whey protein add studies on there, add a section about the forgotten exercies, the deadlift was in there, and it was packed with information you could use.

Now the website is commerical and there are no more great articles.

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