# MEMBERS EXPERIENCES > MEMBER'S CYCLE RESULTS >  Phate's S4 Log

## Phate

Yeah that's right, i'm running S4, and i'm gonna log it so ya'll can here a first person account of how good this stuff is

First off, my stuff is the real deal, the source has been confirmed and such(don't ask me about sources, ya'll know that isn't allowed) and i'm sure my log will show that

Here is my cycle, feel free to critique it or ask questions 

1-6 or 1-8, i'm still deciding as i've heard conflicting info on it, i'm researching it now and getting some help from friends who have run it

the normal dosage is between 0.5-1.5mg/kg of body weight, i'm going to take a little over 1.0mg/kg(that number exactly gives me around 90mg/day and i'm going to take 100mg/day)

i'm going to run my diet as follows

large muscle group days(legs day and back day) are going to be the days i use a clean cheat to bump leptin levels, calories a bit above maintainance

other workout days calories will be below maintainance due to dropping of carbs

nonworkout days carbs will be greatly reduced(mostly fibrous veges)


i'm hoping to gain some lean muscle mass and drop substantial bf

i doubt i'll post pics for this log, BUT just for you guys, i will get composition tested tonight and every 2 weeks so you can track it, as well as post strength increases by logging my workouts 

this stuff is taken orally and has a 4 hour half life so i'll be taking it 3x a day

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## Phate

*Pseudo Day 1*


I just took my first dose, the liquid(it's in oil) has a yellowish tinge and tastes like shvt. Tastes EXACTLY like the shark i dissected in zoology a week ago smelled.

i'm going to workout shoulders/traps/tris in a few hours

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## jimmyinkedup

Im very interested in this phate.....looking forward to hearing what your experience is...

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## D7M

Interesting. 

I'll be following

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## Ernst

I'll be following this. Good luck!

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## Dukkit

im signed up

let it begin!!

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## wukillabee

Sounds good! Nice to see a vet do a log.

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## MuscleScience

You know taking S4 will not make you into a man, Only DSM4life can do that for you!

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## oneshot

hmmm interesting. been curious as to whether sarms are the real deal or just some temporary hype.

every move you make,
every step you take,
every bond you break, 
I"LL BE WATCHIN YOU!

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## Phate

> You know taking S4 will not make you into a man, Only DSM4life can do that for you!


*hmmm, i'll have to ask him to make a housecall then*




> hmmm interesting. been curious as to whether sarms are the real deal or just some temporary hype.
> 
> every move you make,
> every step you take,
> every bond you break, 
> I"LL BE WATCHIN YOU!


LMAO^^^^ stalker much???

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## Phate

Since ya'll are the ones that will be reading this, how bout some opinions on how i should do it

do you want me to write out every set of every workout or just make note of significant strength increases and my personal feelings towards how it is affecting me


this will be in addition to the body composition tests that i will be getting every 2 weeks

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## MuscleScience

> Since ya'll are the ones that will be reading this, how bout some opinions on how i should do it
> 
> do you want me to write out every set of every workout or just make note of significant strength increases and my personal feelings towards how it is affecting me
> 
> 
> this will be in addition to the body composition tests that i will be getting every 2 weeks


Just write out the significant changes. Writing out every set and rep gets old fast!

Good luck with your log!

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## Phate

> *Just write out the significant changes. Writing out every set and rep gets old fast!*
> 
> Good luck with your log!


that's what i was think, as i've read a ton of logs and i rarely read everything posted

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## MuscleScience

> that's what i was think, as i've read a ton of logs and i rarely read everything posted


Exactly, I could care less how many reps and sets someone does on shoulder flies.... :Wink/Grin: 

I basically only look at a few of the compound lifts people do. How strong someone gets on arm curl is not a good measure of progress in my opinion.

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## marseea1

forgive me for asking but what is s-4

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## Phate

> forgive me for asking but what is s-4


S4 is a SARM(selective androgen receptor modifier), there is a SARM section under the AS section if you would like to read about them

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## wukillabee

> Just write out the significant changes. Writing out every set and rep gets old fast!
> 
> Good luck with your log!


Yep! 13 weeks, 5 days a week gets old logging! Good for me though to see where im at and make changes if needed and to have a personal record. But for Phate's question, id go with option 2. Just let us know how its goin bro.

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## jbm

*Good Luck Phate!*

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## WARMachine

> that's what i was think, as i've read a ton of logs and i rarely read everything posted


Meh!

Should post what exercises you do at least once so we know your routine.

And if you switch it up a lil, then post that as well obviously...


And come on brutha! Pics or bust!

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## Phate

> Meh!
> 
> Should post what exercises you do at least once so we know your routine.
> 
> And if you switch it up a lil, then post that as well obviously...
> 
> 
> *And come on brutha! Pics or bust*!


wish i could, no camera and i don't have the money to get one, phone is broken as well

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## hugovsilva

Good stuff.

I will be following.

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## Reed

Yeah I think you should write out at least a little something. I understand you may not be competitive which means writing out stuff does get old for some but lets get some kinda of basics. Its nice to know someones routine and where they are.

And what about your stats. Where you at?? and I agree at least give us a pic, its not that hard to get one. Lets see what all the knowledge has translated to. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to a great physique to be respected with your knowledge but you're a young buck, you should be killin the girls when the shirt comes off!!!!! haha



Good luck either way

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## Phate

took a dose before legs this morning

worked out with a friend of mine

i emphasize ROM on legs going as deep as possible on everything

4 sets of front squats
4 sets of leg press (drop set on 4th set)
4 sets of squat on a free motion machine(cool little machine)
3 sets of car pushes

next leg workout will emphasize hams


i'll be getting body comp tested on monday

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## Phate

Rest day today


took my first dose an hour ago, rest of the day is all about my mom so no lifting for me

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## mho

> took a dose before legs this morning
> 
> worked out with a friend of mine
> 
> i emphasize ROM on legs going as deep as possible on everything
> 
> 4 sets of front squats
> 4 sets of leg press (drop set on 4th set)
> *4 sets of squat on a free motion machine(cool little machine)*
> ...


Is it the one with the adjustable platform? If so, I love that damn thing.

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## RANA

Logging in, good luck and keep us posted

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## Dukkit

> wish i could, no camera and i don't have the money to get one, phone is broken as well


i know what you look like

but shhh. i wont tell. 

 :Wink/Grin:

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## Jumbo18

do you feel different?

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## Phate

> i know what you look like
> 
> but shhh. i wont tell.


it's cool, i'm gonna post some pics in a little while




> do you feel different?


not yet, it's only day 4 and i've heard it kicks in around day 10, supposedly it's around the same as a moderate prop cycle as far as strength gains and such

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## Phate

No noticable change in strength/endurance yet

4 sets DB incline press
5 sets DB bench press
6 sets different angle flys superseted with 3 sets of tricep pushdowns and 3 sets of cable push downs
3 sets of overhead tricep press
3 sets of weighted dips

feel free to critique my workouts and such

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## Jumbo18

that's cool, are SARMS considered keepable gains due to not suppressing testosterone levels , or increasing your own levels further?

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## Phate

> that's cool, are SARMS considered keepable gains due to not suppressing testosterone levels, or increasing your own levels further?


from what i've heard they are definitely keepable gains, they don't suppress natty test much as they aren't hormonally driven

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## Jumbo18

thats cool, i'm keeping up with your progress, good luck phate.

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## jbm

Nice progress! 
I'm still watching you and your thread...

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## Phate

No significant strength increases

i have bumped up dose to 120mg/day and will being running it at this dose from now on

this is 1.35mg/kg of body weight

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## Reed

It'll come phate it'll come.

keep it going......

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## MuscleScience

> No significant strength increases


Maybe you need to get your diet and training in check first, Newb..... :2jk:

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## Phate

> It'll come phate it'll come.
> 
> keep it going......


i'm not worried, just making announcements day by day so people can track when things came on and such for future reference






> Maybe you need to get your diet and training in check first, Newb.....


good point, i shall write out and review my diet tomorrow to double check it

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## NewMuscle83

> wish i could, no camera and i don't have the money to get one, phone is broken as well


Damn, S-4 must be real cheap then  :Smilie:  j/k

Definitely subbed. I know you will give an accurate account of your experience. I might be interested in running this based on your results. 

Good luck.

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## t-gunz

i'll be following phate. 
best of luck mate

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## t-gunz

> took a dose before legs this morning
> 
> worked out with a friend of mine
> 
> i emphasize ROM on legs going as deep as possible on everything
> 
> 4 sets of front squats
> 4 sets of leg press (drop set on 4th set)
> 4 sets of squat on a free motion machine(cool little machine)
> ...



those car pushes. 
is it on the flat. and is there a certain amount of steps or distance you aim for?

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## Dinosaur

I am tuned in.

About ur work out routine It won't really matter like some said as long as you keeps us informed about any changes you go through or progress you make while merging to the dark side gradually.

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## Phate

> those car pushes. 
> is it on the flat. and is there a certain amount of steps or distance you aim for?


they weren't my idea nor will they be part of my normal routine, just something the guy i was training really liked so i added them in as a burnout at the end

they were on flat level, we took a mat and put about 30lbs on it, then pushed it 40-50 yard one way and back, alternating him then me for 3 sets

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## Jumbo18

are you taking blood levels before and during to see how much your test increased? im interested to find out

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## Phate

> are you taking blood levels before and during to see how much your test increased? im interested to find out


i thought about that, but the endo here takes around 2-3 months to get into, so i'm going to schedule an appointment in the fall and do another S4 cycle then(a bulker) and get blood panels run

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## Phate

No significant strength increases, though endurance was up a bit

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## wukillabee

Watchin closely. Seein if this stuff is up to the hype or not. Would u think to run this with gear?

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## smokeyd

S4 huh this should be interesting

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## Phate

> Watchin closely. Seein if this stuff is up to the hype or not. Would u think to run this with gear?


well, the reason i'm running it is because i can't use gear yet and S4 is non-hormonal(although it is slightly suppressive) and therefore won't affect my hpta very much, that's the whole part of SARMs is to get the benefits of steroids without the suppressive nature(read the thread i posted in the SARM section for more details on this)

as far as hypothetically running it with gear, i wouldn't, i would use it more as a bridge between cycles since it's 91% orally active it can be run for long periods so theoretically it could be run for the months between a cycle allowing extra mass gains while your body recovers(though i wouldn't do this until we know the full extent of it's suppressive nature)

it could possible also be run during pct to allow better keeping of gains and possibly even extra gains during

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## wukillabee

> well, the reason i'm running it is because i can't use gear yet and S4 is non-hormonal(although it is slightly suppressive) and therefore won't affect my hpta very much, that's the whole part of SARMs is to get the benefits of steroids without the suppressive nature(read the thread i posted in the SARM section for more details on this)
> 
> as far as hypothetically running it with gear, i wouldn't, i would use it more as a bridge between cycles since it's 91% orally active it can be run for long periods so theoretically it could be run for the months between a cycle allowing extra mass gains while your body recovers(though i wouldn't do this until we know the full extent of it's suppressive nature)
> 
> it could possible also be run during pct to allow better keeping of gains and possibly even extra gains during


Ive read about it and it has a fair price tag on it. Id probably run it 100mg ed during pct with pct meds as well and probably a good 4 weeks after pct. Read a few logs and posts about s4 and peeps mostly say its compared to a low dose test prop/dbol cycle when it fully kicks in. If u can say, how does it taste? From what peeps have said that have used it, it doesnt seem 100mg will shut u down at all takin ed. Do u need to split the doses throughout the day or just one full 100mg shot ed?

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## Phate

> Ive read about it and it has a fair price tag on it. Id probably run it 100mg ed during pct with pct meds as well and probably a good 4 weeks after pct. Read a few logs and posts about s4 and peeps mostly say its compared to a low dose test prop/dbol cycle when it fully kicks in. If u can say, how does it taste? From what peeps have said that have used it, it doesnt seem 100mg will shut u down at all takin ed. Do u need to split the doses throughout the day or just one full 100mg shot ed?


the stuff i have has a yellowish tinge and tastes horrible, the first thing that came to mind was fish that had been left in the sun for hours

it has a 4-6 hour half life so i take it 3x a day, i ended up taking a syringe and some caps and putting 0.4mL per cap, then i take three of those per day(concentration of S4 is 100mg/mL) for a total of 120mg/day

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## wukillabee

> the stuff i have has a yellowish tinge and tastes horrible, the first thing that came to mind was fish that had been left in the sun for hours
> 
> it has a 4-6 hour half life so i take it 3x a day, i ended up taking a syringe and some caps and putting 0.4mL per cap, then i take three of those per day(concentration of S4 is 100mg/mL) for a total of 120mg/day


Caps, thats a good idea! Yeah, only one source with s4 and thats the dose. Wasnt sure bout the half life, thanks for clearing that up. Do u have to store it in a fridge or just in a dry dark place like u would aas oils? Any idea on expiration of this stuff?

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## Phate

> Caps, thats a good idea! Yeah, only one source with s4 and thats the dose. Wasnt sure bout the half life, thanks for clearing that up. Do u have to store it in a fridge or just in a dry dark place like u would aas oils? Any idea on expiration of this stuff?


dry dark place is fine, the things you have to refrigerate are mostly peptides and fragile hormones like MT2 and HGH

expiration is around 12-18 months

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## wukillabee

> dry dark place is fine, the things you have to refrigerate are mostly peptides and fragile hormones like MT2 and HGH
> 
> expiration is around 12-18 months


Sounds good, thanks! Oh, one more question. If one where to use s4 along with their usual pct, would it be smart to start the s4 a week before starting pct so when ur on pct the s4 is kicked in?

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## Phate

> Sounds good, thanks! Oh, one more question. If one where to use s4 along with their usual pct, would it be smart to start the s4 a week before starting pct so when ur on pct the s4 is kicked in?


i'd start it two weeks before as i've read it takes around 10 days to really kick in

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## smokeyd

im likin what i hear mr phate! ima do some more research myself

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## Phate

> im likin what i hear mr phate! ima do some more research myself


i just posted a good read in the sarm section

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## CHUCKYthentic

this is insteresting. pretty much know next to nothing about SARMs and S4 myself

will be keeping an eye here! get it Phate!

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## amcon

"...of the control levels. S-4 (3, 10 mg/kg) and DHT (3 mg/kg) restored *castration-induced* loss in lean body mass. Furthermore, S-4 treatment caused a significantly larger increase in total body bone mineral density (BMD) than DHT. S-4 (3 and 10 mg/kg) also demonstrated agonist activity in the pituitary, and significantly decreased plasma LH and FSH levels in *castrated animals*..."


must be good stuff if it help these "castrated" animals... poor things got their nuts cut off to prove it worked ... we just need to read phate's log to do the same ... WAIT - i think phate is calling dsm over for a house call - well dsm might work phate's balls off - all tune in and we will c!!!!

he he he

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## Phate

> "...of the control levels. S-4 (3, 10 mg/kg) and DHT (3 mg/kg) restored *castration-induced* loss in lean body mass. Furthermore, S-4 treatment caused a significantly larger increase in total body bone mineral density (BMD) than DHT. S-4 (3 and 10 mg/kg) also demonstrated agonist activity in the pituitary, and significantly decreased plasma LH and FSH levels in *castrated animals*..."
> 
> 
> must be good stuff if it help these "castrated" animals... poor things got their nuts cut off to prove it worked ... we just need to read phate's log to do the same ... WAIT - *i think phate is calling dsm over for a house call - well dsm might work phate's balls off - all tune in and we will c!!!!*
> 
> he he he


damn he's good, woke up this morning and balls are long gone, can't blame them after the workout DSM gave them last night

on a serious note, those studies cite doses WAAYYY over what i'm using, so i doubt the same level of suppression will be present in me

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## RANA

Phate, 
Not sure how your vision is doing but I have been doing some research since I saw your post. I think I might be trying some in the near future. Have you tried some supplements for vision such as Lutein and Bilberry extract? I have read that they both can greatly improve your visions, you may still have some vision problems but they will be great decreased. It can take about 3 days before you start seeing improvements. Remember this is from what I have been reading, I have never taken SARM but I will.

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## Phate

> Phate, 
> Not sure how your vision is doing but I have been doing some research since I saw your post. I think I might be trying some in the near future. Have you tried some supplements for vision such as Lutein and Bilberry extract? I have read that they both can greatly improve your visions, you may still have some vision problems but they will be great decreased. It can take about 3 days before you start seeing improvements. Remember this is from what I have been reading, I have never taken SARM but I will.


i have not had any vision problems yet, but if i do i will post them in here

are you going to run a log?

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## RANA

> i have not had any vision problems yet, but if i do i will post them in here
> 
> are you going to run a log?


I'm currently on my 2nd week Tren A/Prop cycle. I was going to see if my source has some so I can run it during my PCT. If I end up getting some I will most likely put a post. I have read a lot of good stuff about it.

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## Phate

slight increase in strength and endurance, i'm starting to notice differences in body composition as well, i look leaner and more muscular than a week ago

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## wukillabee

> slight increase in strength and endurance, i'm starting to notice differences in body composition as well, i look leaner and more muscular than a week ago


Nice for only 7 days in!

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## Phate

> Nice for only 7 days in!


yep yep, it's supposed to really kick in in the next week, i'm looking forward to it

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## jbm

pics! before and after...

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## Reed

Keep it up 

we're all counting on you.

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## Phate

Energy levels are up, i can hardly sit still and i definitely don't want to take a rest day but i have to

i'm pretty sure it's not placebo as today is a low carb day(i've eaten maybe 70g today so far) plus 50 minutes of glycogen depleted cardio(560cal worth) and i'm still buzzing

vision "problems" are arising, no tint or anything yet but difficulty adjusting to extremes

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## Phate

k, even though it's my rest day i did 1.5 hours of steady state cardio split into an am and pm 


VISION IS YELLOW TINTED NOW, so i'm hoping strength will be increased tomorrow

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## NewMuscle83

> k, even though it's my rest day i did 1.5 hours of steady state cardio split into an am and pm 
> 
> 
> VISION IS YELLOW TINTED NOW, so i'm hoping strength will be increased tomorrow


see, that vision thing concerns me a bit. Do you know what exactly causes it? also, can you combat it? What about whether it can get worse or stay consistent....or even permanent?

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## Phate

> see, that vision thing concerns me a bit. Do you know what exactly causes it? also, can you combat it? What about whether it can get worse or stay consistent....or even permanent?


from what i've read it goes away when you stop the cycle

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## Phate

great workout today, strength is up a little

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## Phate

i'll go do some steady state cardio later today, but that leg day made my entire body sore so i'm gonna take it easy and start back monday

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## Shurik

I'm excited to see your results.

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## The Deuce

> Yeah that's right, i'm running S4, and i'm gonna log it so ya'll can here a first person account of how good this stuff is
> 
> First off, my stuff is the real deal, the source has been confirmed and such(don't ask me about sources, ya'll know that isn't allowed) and i'm sure my log will show that
> 
> Here is my cycle, feel free to critique it or ask questions 
> 
> 1-6 or 1-8, i'm still deciding as i've heard conflicting info on it, i'm researching it now and getting some help from friends who have run it
> 
> the normal dosage is between 0.5-1.5mg/kg of body weight, i'm going to take a little over 1.0mg/kg(that number exactly gives me around 90mg/day and i'm going to take 100mg/day)
> ...


Dude I may be An Idiota ... but.... WHAT IN THE WORLD IS S4 !!???!!




> *Good Luck Phate!*


WOW ...ummm.. yah... ummm.. Yuuuuuummmm !!!

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## RANA

> Dude I may be An Idiota ... but.... WHAT IN THE WORLD IS S4 !!???!!


Here is a good read: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=386610

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## Phate

screwed up my eye today, i have retina tears as it is, but i can't really see out of it right now, gonna go do back anyway

wish me luck

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## NewMuscle83

> screwed up my eye today, i have retina tears as it is, but i can't really see out of it right now, gonna go do back anyway
> 
> wish me luck


wait, what? You screwed up your eye, or the S-4 did??

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## RANA

> screwed up my eye today, i have retina tears as it is, but i can't really see out of it right now, gonna go do back anyway
> 
> wish me luck


WTF? Are you OK? So are you stopping S-4?

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## Phate

> wait, what? You screwed up your eye, or the S-4 did??


i did, i've had this happen before




> WTF? Are you OK? So are you stopping S-4?


yeah, did cardio this morning, back and cardio afterwards

I'M NOT STOPPING THE S4, my eye is fine now, just hurt like a bitch this morning and i had to use an eyepatch for a while to let it heal

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## Phate

Not a good workout day, strength was fine but i couldn't feel the muscles working like i normally can, all in all just not a good workout, but i got through it

birthday tomorrow, yay.....not

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## jbm

I know this might be a dumb question... 
What's S4? just a short and brief answer...
Thanks!

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## Phate

> I know this might be a dumb question... 
> What's S4? just a short and brief answer...
> Thanks!


we have a forum for it under the AS section if you want to read more, but here's a summary

S4 is a SARM(selective androgen receptor modifier), which is the new class that will(hopefully) replace steroids in the next decade or so, the reasoning is this, SARMs are basically non-hormonal, meaning they produce the anabolic effects of steroids (mass gain, fat loss, etc...) without the sides(acne, hairloss) and they also do this without much suppression of the HPTA

but they are still in research, so i'm basically doing research using my body as the experiment

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## The Deuce

... ANYONE EVER TOLD YOU THAT YOU THE MAN BRO?? cuz .............. You the man !!! 


This S4 sh1t scares the absolute bejesus out of me...


like really.........


i'll never give up my AAS !! Never I tell you !! [email protected] THE SARMS !!!  :Frown:

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## Phate

> ... ANYONE EVER TOLD YOU THAT YOU THE MAN BRO?? cuz .............. You the man !!! 
> 
> 
> *This S4 sh1t scares the absolute bejesus out of me...*
> 
> 
> like really.........
> 
> 
> i'll never give up my AAS !! Never I tell you !! [email protected] THE SARMS !!!


Me too bro, i have a good healthy fear for it, hence why i'm not running 200-300mg/day like some people i know, i'm scared i would fvck myself up, but the risk of using S4 is still less than that of using AS right now so it's what i'm using, but don't think for a second i'm using it carefree, lol

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## jbm

> we have a forum for it under the AS section if you want to read more, but here's a summary
> 
> S4 is a SARM(selective androgen receptor modifier), which is the new class that will(hopefully) replace steroids in the next decade or so, the reasoning is this, SARMs are basically non-hormonal, meaning they produce the anabolic effects of steroids (mass gain, fat loss, etc...) without the sides(acne, hairloss) and they also do this without much suppression of the HPTA
> 
> but they are still in research, so i'm basically doing research using my body as the experiment


Thanks! I think I read an article about SARM in a magazine last year... but anyway! you are using your body for research? damn you are crazy.... lolol!!! 
Good luck brother!  :7up:

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## Edgar

ahh its ok. the vision thing does get on your nerves a lil, good luck with it but it wont replace a good ole cycle. just think you could be running a test and tren maybe some mast in your cycle and instead you are running S4. I would use it for pct and keep all your gains  :Wink:

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## Phate

> ahh its ok. the vision thing does get on your nerves a lil, good luck with it but it wont replace a good ole cycle. *just think you could be running a test and tren maybe some mast in your cycle* and instead you are running S4. I would use it for pct and keep all your gains


actually i can't, i can't cycle for another couple years

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## wukillabee

Bump for an actual log past all these ads! Need to get a mod in here to delete these spam threads started by doctorwelcom21. Not sure when these ads started popping up but just looked now and theres like 12 in a row!

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## Phate

> Bump for an actual log past all these ads! Need to get a mod in here to delete these spam threads started by doctorwelcom21. Not sure when these ads started popping up but just looked now and theres like 12 in a row!


there are close to 100 now, it's a smart bot, but we can't do anything as none of us have the power to delete that are on now

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## NewMuscle83

what the hell is everyone talking about??? I see NO ads!!!

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## wukillabee

> there are close to 100 now, it's a smart bot, but we can't do anything as none of us have the power to delete that are on now


That sucks, damn spammers and their bots. Actually went on the site just to see, $90 for some creatine, real deal! Haha!

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## InsaneInTheMembrane

It's good for us to see real world s4 results; things sometimes look good on paper but not in practice

thanx for being our guinea pig  :Wink/Grin: 

cheers
Insane

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## Valtorian

Sounds cool, look forward to seeing the results.

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## legobricks

Also logged, im interested in how the S4 will help with your goals. Im also thinking of using it myself....still in limbo tho :Wink/Grin:

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## Phate

today was a weak point day

noticed good increases in strength and endurance

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## MuscleScience

So are you benching 400+ yet???

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## Phate

> So are you benching 400+ yet???


Lol, i don't bench, can't stand it

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## Epic1

Me either! but ill do some incline instead

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## RANA

> Lol, i don't bench, can't stand it


Me either, only DB, cables and Machines. I don't feel like ripping a pec

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## stpete

I'm checking from here on out. Good luck bro.

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## Jumbo18

how you been phate? you doing alright?

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## hugovsilva

Notice any body composition changes?

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## KatsMeow

> we have a forum for it under the AS section if you want to read more, but here's a summary
> 
> S4 is a SARM(selective androgen receptor modifier), which is the new class that will(hopefully) replace steroids in the next decade or so, the reasoning is this, SARMs are basically non-hormonal, meaning they produce the anabolic effects of steroids (mass gain, fat loss, etc...) without the sides(acne, hairloss) and they also do this without much suppression of the HPTA
> 
> but they are still in research, *so i'm basically doing research using my body as the experiment*


I have a research experiment to do on your body as well.  :Wink/Grin:

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## Dukkit

> I have a research experiment to do on your body as well.


oh my. is kats gettin friskey!!

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## KatsMeow

> oh my. is kats gettin friskey!!


sorry, couldn't help it

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## Phate

> Notice any body composition changes?


so far i'm unimpressed, nothing really noticeable, better size overall but not much, i'll wait for my final body composition to come back, sorry for the lack of posts guys, dad just had heart surgery so i'm taking care of him in Arizona




> I have a research experiment to do on your body as well.


oh really, something along the lines of high intensity cardio i hope

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## D7M

Hope your Dad recovers well, my friend.

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## KatsMeow

> so far i'm unimpressed, nothing really noticeable, better size overall but not much, i'll wait for my final body composition to come back, sorry for the lack of posts guys, dad just had heart surgery so i'm taking care of him in Arizona
> 
> 
> 
> oh really, something along the lines of high intensity cardio i hope


of course hunny, we can get that summer cardio plan in motion

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## Reed

Sorry to hear about your father Phate. Hope all is well

Do you have any updates for us, sides, you benching 500 yet? whats been going on, I'm really interested as I plan on utilizing this once i come off after the comps. Or hit me up on you know what.  :Wink:

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## Phate

> Sorry to hear about your father Phate. Hope all is well
> 
> Do you have any updates for us, sides, you benching 500 yet? whats been going on, I'm really interested as I plan on utilizing this once i come off after the comps. Or hit me up on you know what.


i just got a full bloodwork taken(i'm in the middle of my S4 cycle) so this should be interesting

metabolic panel
thyroid panel
free and total test
lipid profile
liver values
etc....

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## Reed

I am very interested in what comes about.

I see you are not THAT impressed. Very well then I guess its not all that and more but can possibly help take that post cycle edge off for me.

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## Phate

> I am very interested in what comes about.
> 
> I see you are not THAT impressed. Very well then I guess its not all that and more but can possibly help take that post cycle edge off for me.


that it could, remember you that i'm taking a low to moderate dose and since S4 is 17AA it's not hepatotoxic(at least to my knowledge), so you could(and knowing you would) run a much higher dose than i am now

though my next cycle(winter bulker) i'm going to run 250-300mg/day

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## Reed

:Big Grin: 

You know oh so well. 


But I'm trying to stay smart as I am only on my third cycle which is just to hold to muscle while i deplete and shred down. I don't wanna bump and bump too fast even though I wannaaaaaaaa........  :Wink/Grin:

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## Phate

> You know oh so well. 
> 
> 
> But I'm trying to stay smart as I am only on my third cycle which is just to hold to muscle while i deplete and shred down. I don't wanna bump and bump too fast even though I wannaaaaaaaa........


don't worry, i'll be the genuine pig with this stuff and tell you how each cycle goes

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## *RAGE*

so sorry to hear about your dad bro, my prayers got out to him. I am following this thread very close, just read some stuff on this and am looking forward to see how it turns out for you....

thanks for being a ginny pig..

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## amcon

did you get the blood test back yet? and do you have weight gains? bf changes?

how do you feel in the s4 in general? were you on hrt before?

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## amcon

did you get the blood test back yet? and do you have weight gains? bf changes?

how do you feel in the s4 in general? were you on hrt before?

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## Phate

> did you get the blood test back yet? and do you have weight gains? bf changes?
> 
> how do you feel in the s4 in general? were you on hrt before?


i should have the bloodtests back tomorrow and i'll report an abnormalities and such

on the S4 i feel about the same as off, and no, i have never cycled before or used any steroids /peptides/etc...

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## amcon

> i should have the bloodtests back tomorrow and i'll report an abnormalities and such
> 
> on the S4 i feel about the same as off, and no, i have never cycled before or used any steroids/peptides/etc...


any good gains to talk about? weight or strenght? bf - notice any change?

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## Phate

> any good gains to talk about? weight or strenght? bf - notice any change?


bf% is down at least 4% since i started and i look bigger IMO and the opinion of my parents

strength is up i believe, i just went from below sea level to 1000ft above and my strength is more than it was before i left in the presence of less oxygen

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## NewMuscle83

> bf% is down at least 4% since i started and i look bigger IMO and the opinion of my parents
> 
> strength is up i believe, i just went from below sea level to 1000ft above and my strength is more than it was before i left in the presence of less oxygen


so, worth the cost so far I'm assuming?

From the sounds of this I don't see why it wouldn't become a staple in PCT.

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## Phate

> so, worth the cost so far I'm assuming?
> 
> From the sounds of this I don't see why it wouldn't become a staple in PCT.


well, as far as worth the cost, it is for me because of my age, though i'll wait to answer that question in more detail at the end of the cycle

as far as a staple in PCT, when i get my bloodwork back i'll be able to see if it suppresses my free/total test levels and that will determine whether it can be used for PCT purposes

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## NewMuscle83

> well, as far as worth the cost, it is for me because of my age, though i'll wait to answer that question in more detail at the end of the cycle
> 
> as far as a staple in PCT, when i get my bloodwork back i'll be able to see if it suppresses my free/total test levels and that will determine whether it can be used for PCT purposes


cool. My understanding is that it doesn't, and therefore will be a good addition to PCT to help hold on to strength and size.

Will wait for your bloodwork to prove it.

How far along are you now?

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## Reed

> bf% is down at least 4% since i started and i look bigger IMO and the opinion of my parents
> 
> strength is up i believe, i just went from below sea level to 1000ft above and my strength is more than it was before i left in the presence of less oxygen


So you are cutting currently I assume w/ cals below maintenance and carbs from fibrous veggies with strength up then its a pretty good product.

I'm depleting at the moment for contest prep and on test/tren /winny and my strength is definitely not going up.

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## Phate

> cool. My understanding is that it doesn't, and therefore will be a good addition to PCT to help hold on to strength and size.
> 
> Will wait for your bloodwork to prove it.
> 
> How far along are you now?


i'm around 4 weeks in now i believe, i'd have to go check the date i started




> So you are cutting currently I assume w/ cals below maintenance and carbs from fibrous veggies with strength up then its a pretty good product.
> 
> I'm depleting at the moment for contest prep and on test/tren/winny and my strength is definitely not going up.


pretty close, my carb sources are oatmeal and veggies mostly, i'm carb cycling with high days on back and legs day, low days on chest, arms etc...and no days(or low days depending on how i feel) on days where i just do cardio

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## Reed

I'm going put my neck out and say dropping 4% in a months time is AMAZING. Congrats on that. 

What are you 2% now benching 400lbs  :Wink:

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## amcon

> bf% is down at least 4% since i started and i look bigger IMO and the opinion of my parents
> 
> strength is up i believe, i just went from below sea level to 1000ft above and my strength is more than it was before i left in the presence of less oxygen


that oxygen level is little or no change ... so that is good your stronger in similar conditions.

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## Phate

bloodwork should have been here today, my dad's came in, just not mine yet, anyway

i'm also getting blood work i had done several months ago(before S4) faxed to me so i can compare and give ya'll a perspective on it's effects on HPTA and such


i should also say that i love HIIT, i ran 60/30 intervals today for 35 total minutes and my heartrate was 180 on average, i loved it

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## Phate

okay guys, got my blood work back and here's how it stands

BLOODWORK FROM OCTOBER 9, 2008
Pre-SARM

Total test level 5.49ng/mL
LH 2.77mIU/mL
Prolactin 11.40ng/mL


BLOODWORK FROM MONDAY, JUNE 1 2009
Intra-SARM

Total test level 282ng/dL (this would be 2.82ng/mL)
Free test 11.9pg/mL(the reference range is 9.3-26.5, i should be at the high end of this as it takes into account age groups from 0-60+)

AST 53(reference range 0-40)
ALT 103 (reference range 0-55)


This tells me a few things:

first, S4 is slightly suppressive of your natural testosterone production as mine has been cut in half over the last 4-5 weeks from use of it, so it might not be the best thing to run in PCT

second, even though it is not 17aa, it is affecting my liver from some angle as my liver enzymes are raised and i haven't had a drink of alcohol in a while

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## RANA

Great info, I was contemplating on running during my PCT but with your info this really helps.

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## Phate

> Great info, I was contemplating on running during my PCT but with your info this really helps.


i'm going to see if i can get prolactin and LH tests run this week as well to try and figure out what's causing the drop in test levels, i'm wondering if the SARM is messing with my LH levels, if so i can correct that

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## Reed

Good info, so I won't be using this in my PCT protocol once the contests are over.


And Phate you ain't gotta lie I know you're a raging alcoholic. 



















































jk  :Smilie:

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## Phate

> Good info, so I won't be using this in my PCT protocol once the contests are over.
> 
> 
> *And Phate you ain't gotta lie I know you're a raging alcoholic.* 
> 
> jk


that's how i roll, 10 shots of whiskey before i go to the gym to do my balance ball squats and ego benches, then it's time for the one piece sweatsuit and knee high socks for my cardio

don't hate the player, hate the game, lol

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## Reed

> that's how i roll, 10 shots of whiskey before i go to the gym to do my balance ball squats and ego benches, then it's time for the one piece sweatsuit and knee high socks for my cardio
> 
> don't hate the player, hate the game, lol


Shhh don't be giving out the secrets of the pros.

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## Marinos

> second, even though it is not 17aa, it is affecting my liver from some angle as my liver enzymes are raised and i haven't had a drink of alcohol in a while


So exactly how 'bad' is this for your liver? Would a 12 week cycle be out of the question?

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## ni4ni

Phate, prior to them drawing labs did/are you taking any other meds that could potentially increase AST/ALT like tylenol?




> okay guys, got my blood work back and here's how it stands
> 
> BLOODWORK FROM OCTOBER 9, 2008
> Pre-SARM
> 
> Total test level 5.49ng/mL
> LH 2.77mIU/mL
> Prolactin 11.40ng/mL
> 
> ...

----------


## *RAGE*

So how much lean muscle mass have you put on so far?

----------


## Phate

> Phate, prior to them drawing labs did/are you taking any other meds that could potentially increase AST/ALT like tylenol?


none that i could think of




> So how much lean muscle mass have you put on so far?


idk yet, i just got back into texas last night so i need to get a comp test done

----------


## Marinos

> So exactly how 'bad' is this for your liver? Would a 12 week cycle be out of the question?


Bump

I need to know how long to run this stuff, any advice would be much appreciated

----------


## amcon

read the thread... and make sure it is inline with your goals

----------


## chucklesmcgee

> none that i could think of
> i just got back into texas last night so i need to get a comp test done


Good idea getting the body comp. I'm looking at Phase II results in humans- they lost almost as much fat as they gained muscle- so changes in body weight may be deceiving you as to how much muscle you're actually gaining. Once you figure out your new body comp, do the math and figure out your gain in lean mass. Solid log, btw.

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## millionairemurph

This is a good read, thanks phate

----------


## jrmy

let us know when u get the lh and prolactin checked bro.

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## Phate

> let us know when u get the lh and prolactin checked bro.


already did

before S4

LH 2.77 mIU/mL
prolactin 11.4 ng/mL

while on S4

LH 4.1mIU/mL
prolactin 7.1ng/mL

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## Jumbo18

im confused, your lh went up and prolactin went down after getting off S4?

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## Phate

> im confused, your lh went up and prolactin went down after getting off S4?


post edited, it wasnt "after S4" it was "while on S4"

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## jrmy

> post edited, it wasnt "after S4" it was "while on S4"


hmm interesting.ive been suspecting i have high prolactin,but im sure other meds are more effiecient at reducing this.On another note,lh is responsible for t-levels increasing correct?

----------


## jamyjamjr

im lost, wtf is s4??

----------


## RANA

> im lost, wtf is s4??


This should help you out: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=386610

----------


## Nooomoto

What happened to the log?

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## Phate

> What happened to the log?


i finished the "cycle", not much to report gain wise so i didn't

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## lotsoftime

So S4 not worth it?

----------


## Phate

> So S4 not worth it?


not for me at least

----------


## bass

> not for me at least


Phate, as you know i am running S4 right now, unless i missed it, i didnt see anything mentioned about PCT. did you run PCT afterwards, or not? how old are you BTW?

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## CMB

Conclusion --- s4 sucks.

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## CaliburKid

Excellent read! I was curious about S4, however the vision comments are what made me really question the product. What's your age by chance? I notice you keep saying you CAN'T cycle yet. Also, notice you're in TX (Good stuff)...Anywho, excellent thread/study!

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## Lmoye22

From reading earlier about S4, i thought it was going to be great. Good thing i kept reading on. Great info here

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