# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Prostate

## zaggahamma

Anyone have had diagnosis of cancer or close calls. What are the consequences of this condition if found early. I think Kale mentioned a close call that was ruled out. I would appreciate any knowledge first hand or somebody close to the situation and thanks a bunch.

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## Spyke

It would be nice to get Oasis and some other Hrt docs to weigh in on this. They all tend to gloss over the question as to weather test can cause prostate problems. My question is if one guy has natural test levels of 800 and another guy takes weekly injections to maintain levels of 800, assuming they are the same age, family history and other risk factors, would one have a higher risk of developing prostate problems?

Here is another thing. When I talked to Oasis for the first time, I told them I had a vasectomy a few years back. The rep said " You know alot of guys go on test after a vasectomy.". I asked him if there was a connection between the 2 and he said there are no studies but he thinks they are connected. When I asked my HRT doc about this he said alot of guys who are on hrt have vasectomies because alot of guys in general have vasectomies. There is no connection.

Most men who go on hrt are older (50+), and most men who get prostate problems are older. I wonder if this is the connection?

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## zaggahamma

I'm hoping that the age factor stays in my favor in this case. I found a good read on the internet(explorer) that is providing a lot of information. They did say that cancer MAY show a high PSA level....meaning that a low PSA does not rule cancer out.
That is so hard to believe that alot of men have vasectomies when there are so many more options of BC....I know I never had considered it.

Thanks for chiming in Spyke....how's the BP?

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## Mobligator

As a former prostate cancer patient I learned a lot while at the clinic in Atlanta, (RCOG), and much more from doing research on the internet. At RCOG the Doc in charge, Dr. Ctitz, put it this way when one of the patients asked him how someone could prevent getting PCa; his reply was, "don't get old". According to him, if a man is 60 y/o, his chances of getting PCa are 60 %, if 70/ y/o, chances are 70 %, and so on. Most men will get PCa if they live to be old enough but most die from something else without ever knowing they had PCa. They discoverd this by doing autopsies and/or prostate biopsies on older men who died of something other than cancer and a large percentage of them had prostate cancer.

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## zaggahamma

> As a former prostate cancer patient I learned a lot while at the clinic in Atlanta, (RCOG), and much more from doing research on the internet. At RCOG the Doc in charge, Dr. Ctitz, put it this way when one of the patients asked him how someone could prevent getting PCa; his reply was, "don't get old". According to him, if a man is 60 y/o, his chances of getting PCa are 60 %, if 70/ y/o, chances are 70 %, and so on. Most men will get PCa if they live to be old enough but most die from something else without ever knowing they had PCa. They discoverd this by doing autopsies and/or prostate biopsies on older men who died of something other than cancer and a large percentage of them had prostate cancer.


Man I keep hearing the age scenario and it makes me a little at ease and thanks. I go in today for the biopsy. I'll keep the post updated.

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## Homeguard

> ....... I go in today for the biopsy. I'll keep the post updated.


Good luck man. I had a cancer scare (bowel), not a nice thing to go through. Its the not knowing that gets ya.

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## zaggahamma

thanks man....i appreciate it

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## Ufa

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## zaggahamma

thanks ufa...thinkin bout puttin off procedure til seein my psa again..or having a free psa test as well...wha u think?

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## Ufa

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## zaggahamma

yes...no..i appreciate all advice and i know i'll make my own mind up...I called them just now and the nurse was very helpful...my PSA is still only 0.4 on a scale of 0.0-4.0...it was 0.3 before HRT...but she reminded me that PSA doesn't rule out anything and wasn't the reason for the biopsy...that was ordered because the doc felt something with his finger...the said they would order a free PSA but that won't rule out anything either.....my only symptoms that sound like PC are the pains I have in my hips....but they say that could be just BPH...I always thought it was from having car accidents...I don't ever have pain w/ urinating or strength of flow, however...for quite a few years....gotta give em quite a few good squeezes and shakes when i'm done pissin and still drip a bit....i had brought that up a long time ago with a family doc...and he was like....ahhh, you don't want to get a finger up your ar$e,etc....I was prob in my late 20's then....man, i'm thinking of waiting

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## Ufa

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## zaggahamma

All the information is leading me to waitin....afterall, i went to that uro because i couldn't get a script for cyp....after cryin a bit about gel rubbin on my kids, my last endo finally sent me a script for cyp....so maybe I'll cancel biopsy, have them order me a free PSA blood test and keep an eye on it...thanks again everyone...i'm going to start a new thread on my new testosterone levels I talke the nurse into reading to me...please check it out!

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## Oasis

Let see if I can help at all with this subject. Like mentioned earlier a PSA test doesn't rule out prostate cancer. It is a pretty good indicator but even high level on a psa test doesn't mean there is prostate cancer. As individuals get older the carcingens do increase and will show a higher psa level but may not be actual cancer there. The only way to eliminate prostate cancer being suspect would be to do the biopsy. There are some studies (I will look and post them) that low levels of testosterone can cause prostate cancer and that by supplementing testosterone can actually protect against prostate cancer. Hope this part helps and I will look for those studies and post soon.

As for the portion where someone spoke about vasectamy tie in with low testosterone levels . I guess I am speaking from patient histories. There is no documented proof from what I have seen that shows there is a tie in to causing low testosterone levels and after speaking to patients that have talked to their own physicians that were told that there is no connection. This is only from what is seen by patients that come to our clinic that have expressed that they have had a vasectamy and looking at the blood test results that probably 9 out of 10 that I have seen have had extremely low testosteorne levels and I am not speaking the 300s but in the low 100s to even double digits. So one has to make thier own assumption that there may be a tie in with this. We have not done any specific research on this subject and are unaware of anyone that has.

Hope this helped a little and I will look and post the studies regarding testosteone replacement and prostate soon.

Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Mngmt
1-877-548-3968 
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

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## zaggahamma

Thanks Oasis, in your opinion, would you do a biopsy with out having high PSA levels...based on one DRE?
thanks again

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## Ufa

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## Oasis

Well the question is would I go off of one doctor's recommendation. To be honest with you I can't really tell you for sure on that it really has to be something you personally feel comfortable with for your own peace of mind. I would probably repeat the psa test to be sure but knowing how the psa test fluctuates on a test it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion. Something that I forgot to mention was that having sex or any type of ejaculation even up to 72 hours before the test can cause and elevation in this psa test. (don't know if your doctor mentioned that) If not I would at least repeat the test making sure this abstinence is done for at least 72 hours.

Hope that helps some more.

Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Mgmt
1-877-548-3968
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

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## zaggahamma

The only thing is that my PSA isn't high...it's 0.3/0.4 on two tests...He wants biopsy from what he felt with his big ole finger....i've cancelled for today and have them sencing me a RX for a free PSA and I will ask my endo to do a DRE...i feel like a butt ho!

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## Oasis

Sorry about that I always have trouble after reading eveyone's post to make sure I am not repeating anything and then typing a response. In that case I would probably get another opinion and maybe even do the test again just to make sure.


Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Mngmt
1-877-548-3968
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

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## zaggahamma

All good and thanks for advice always  :Smilie:

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## Mobligator

*Diagnostic PSA vs Free PSA*

If you want to get some good info on the "Free PSA", just insert those two words in a Google Search and you'll get 10,600,000 hits. The following site is on the first page and explains it very well. 

http://psa-rising.com/detection/flowchart.htm

I would never get a biopsy without first having the Free PSA done unless my regular diagnostic PSA was either over 4.0 or it had doubled since the previous PSA; e.g. if it was 2.0 and it went up to 4.0. I knew a guy at the clinic where I was treated for prostate cancer who had a PSA of 1.5 and he had cancer but his previous PSA had doubled from 0.75 and this set off alarm bells with his Uro. 

I think jpkman is worrying too much about having cancer with a PSA of 0.3 just because his MD felt something but I totally understand his concern since prostate cancer is a scary thing. It almost scared me to death! I was devastated, thought my life was over. However, if there was something large enough to feel on his prostate and it was maglignant, it would almost be certain to show up on his PSA, i.e. to say, it would be much higher than 0.3.
Quoting from a book given to me at RCOG, Radiotheraphy Clinics of Georgia,
"if there are 3 microscopic cancer cells that either escaped through the capsule of the prostate gland or were left behind during a radical prostatectomy, they would be enough to raise the PSA above 0.2". When the prostate is completely removed surgically, the PSA should be zero. So, if something was large enough to feel it would certainly have to be many more than 3 microscopic cells, probably in the millions and it only takes three to cause your PSA to go from zero to 0.2.

Another interesting fact to note is, even a very thorough biopsy can miss the cancer in the prostate. A very good biopsy will take at least six to nine samples in different areas of the prostate. Visualize a Tic Tat Toe game with nine squares over laid on the prostate and you take a sample biopsy out of each square. That would be one of the best methods of doing a biopsy. A very thin needle is used to collect the samples so you can see how a needle could very well miss if the cancer is located only in one spot. Regardless, always get a second opinion when it involves anything this serious.

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## zaggahamma

Awesome to hear Mobligator....I did pass on the procedure today and asked for a script for a free PSA....they are sending my the new script today so I'll be testing early next week...so did you actually beat the fuk out of the cancer...like in bye bye see ya!? Got to keep it monitored for reoccurance? Anything like that? And when you speak of the .2 and .3, .4...you say those are cancer microscopic cells? Does a healthy man normally have a zero for PSA? I've never asked that before....I just saw the range started at 0.0 and went to 4.0?
thanks as always mobligator and for the extra time with your posts...MUCH APPRECIATED

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## Spyke

I am 34 and just had a psa before starting hrt. mine was .2 and I guess thats good. What I am learning from all this is to get your blood tested every 6 months just to be safe. I think I will get a total testosterone , cbc, and psa every 6 months. That way I will know of any changes before they become a problem.

Thats probably overkill and once a year would be ok.

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## zaggahamma

> I am 34 and just had a psa before starting hrt. mine was .2 and I guess thats good. What I am learning from all this is to get your blood tested every 6 months just to be safe. I think I will get a total testosterone , cbc, and psa every 6 months. That way I will know of any changes before they become a problem.
> 
> Thats probably overkill and once a year would be ok.


Spyke, what's cbc?

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## Spyke

http://www.medicinenet.com/complete_...nt/article.htm

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## Oasis

Spyke,

I would maybe add a free testosterone , estradiol, and dht to that follow up blood work but just an opinion. Also every six months should be good. I think a good way to do a blood check is if you are just starting to get checked in 3 months and then every six months after that.

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## Mobligator

*jpkman you asked; Does a healthy man normally have a zero for PSA?*
That's a good question, one I've never thought about or heard the answer to.
But I suppose it's possible for a young healthy man, with the emphasis on "young"  :Icon Rolleyes:  to have zero in the blood stream. Usually younger men aren't tested, i.e. men say in their 20's but the Prostate-specific antigen, PSA has it's function and is present in every man. 
_Prostate-specific antigen (PSA) is a protein produced by normal prostate cells. This enzyme participates in the dissolution of the seminal fluid coagulum and plays an important role in fertility. The highest amounts of PSA are found in the seminal fluid; some PSA escapes the prostate and can be found in the blood serum. This serum component has been used to track the response to therapy in men with prostate cancer._
If a man has his prostate removed his PSA should eventually go down to zero. If it doesn't he is most likely in trouble. That's a good indicator there were microscopic cancer cells that escaped either before or during surgery. 
I don't know if I beat it yet but I have to have a PSA done every six months for the rest of my life. (so they say)  :No No:  I think if I get by for five years I'll be okay and hey, thats a long time when you're almost 73 y/o.
I'm sure you have nothing to worry about with your PSA and at your age. I was in my prime when I was about 35-37 as for lifting weights and I was could still bench press around 300 when I was 62. (with a little help from Test, et al.) Now I'm running on empty! BTW, your Free Test. was pretty good before you went on HRT. That's the most important figure. Free Test. is the only thing that does the work in your cells. DHT is not good for the prostate but it helps with your libido. It's suspected that DHT is the cause for BPH. Also of interest, there is some correlation with testosterone and PSA but I'm not sure exactly what it is or how it works biologically. I know if I take any exogenous Test. my PSA will go up & vice versa but I've never found an MD who could explain the relationship to me. 
Also in regards to test c and test e, the half life of test c is 8 days and test e 9 days. After 9 days you still have half of it left in your system, after 18 days you have one fourth of it left, etc. A 100 mg shot is the "normal maintenance" dosage for one week but like someone else already told you, it'd be better to wait about 18 days before having it tested. That should keep your level in the ball park. Personally I preferred "test c" over the enanthate for getting good results. Take care.

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## zaggahamma

Thanks as always...and props to you...I can't even do 300 on the bench now....only did one time when i was a young grasshopper jacked up on anadrol /test....almost 20 years ago...
thanks again for all your help and info
take care, too

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## Kale

Some interesting reading for you dudes 



Estrogen’s Dirty Little Secret
by TC



As it stands now, sooner or later, your prostate will start to swell up like the dinner rolls momma’s baking in the oven. At best, this unwanted hypertrophy will just obstruct urine flow. At worst, it’ll develop into cancer.

In North America at least, benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) is pretty much inevitable, just like death, taxes, or the birth of some new nauseating boy band. Hell, if a pathologist autopsies just about anybody over the age of 50 — who died of something unrelated to prostate cancer — he’ll most likely find BPH or prostate cancer.

Maybe they’ll be able to treat yours, and maybe they won’t. Either way, the options aren’t pretty. Maybe you’ll be able to just take drugs that make urination easier. Of course, if there’s cancer, you may have surgery and that surgery may leave you impotent. Or, maybe your choice of treatment will just be chemical castration.

Given the prevalence of steroid use and androgen manipulation in general, however, BPH is becoming an issue even with some 25 to 30-year olds.

The medical community is understandably upset, and that’s why they’ve declared war on Testosterone and his pesky little brother, DHT. The latter has been directly implicated in BPH, and that’s one of the reasons the medical community doesn’t like steroids , prohormones, Tribex 500, and even Testosterone itself.

Their reasoning is that you’re better off being a eunuch than a stud who has to get up to pee every half-hour.

The trouble is, I think they’re wrong. I think they’re pointing the finger at the wrong culprit. I think it’s Testosterone’s wicked sister, estrogen, that’s setting up Testosterone to take the fall.


First, a Few Words about One of Our Favorite Glands

The prostate is about the size of a chestnut — not all that big for such a potentially troublesome gland. One end is located just below the neck of the bladder and it kind of wraps around the beginning of the urethra (that’s why any enlargement impedes urine flow). The other end rests on the rectum, which is why the doctor sticks his finger up your ass during your annual physical.

A healthy prostate has an androgen-sensitive epithelium that wraps around a core of fibrous tissue, or stroma. Sex hormones typically traverse this epithelium and bind to receptor sites. Regulator genes are then activated and transcription factors turn on, causing the formation of new proteins (growth).

However, some of these genes might be proto-oncogenes (genes that code for cancer) and they can be transformed into cancer-initiating oncogenes.

The normal human male usually experiences two distinct peaks of prostate growth. The first occurs at puberty — right around the same time that the Testosterone starts flowing. The second occurs at about the age of 50 when there’s an increase in the ratio of estrogen to androgen.


Some Compelling Evidence

While it’s true that Testosterone and DHT definitely play a part in prostate growth, there’s more to the picture than meets the eye.

One of the largest studies ever done on men and BPH shows a strong association between BPH and serum estradiol levels.(5) Furthermore, the study reveals that the risk is confined to men who have low levels of Testosterone !

In fact, every study to date is in agreement that the concentration of Testosterone (the precursor of DHT) in the prostate of males suffering from BPH is low or normal.(1,10,11)

And, as shown in a study reported here in Testosterone a few months back, subjecting hypogonadal BPH patients to Testosterone replacement therapy resulted in prostate shrinkage!

What’s going on here?


Some Explanations

Estrogen

Don’t get me wrong, estrogen is vital to the male, but once levels skyrocket through over-exposure to the real stuff, or constant exposure to phytoestrogens (plant chemicals that resemble human estrogen) or xenoestrogens (environmental chemicals that resemble estrogen), things go awry. The result can be gynecomastia (excess male breast tissue), additional fat storage, decrease in libido, uncontrollable weeping whenever Beaches is on, or, as this article purports, prostate enlargement.

About 75-90% of estrogen in young men occurs in fatty tissue.(4) Testosterone is "aromatized" to estrogen and androstenedione is aromatized to estrone. Only between 10 and 25% is made directly in the testes.

Ah, if only it stayed that way! Trouble is, as we get older, the E/A ratio increases, presumably due to greater estrogen production, unchanged or decreased androgen production, or an increase in the amount of enzyme that changes Testosterone to Estrogen.

This ratio also increases sometimes when we start to manipulate our Testosterone levels , either through T replacement or the use of certain aromatizeable steroids. And, we can’t forget the estrogen mimickers in the environment, either.

The prostate itself obtains estrogens, through aromatase activity within its own tissues, and through outside sources. When levels get too high, though, BPH happens. Nodules start to occur in the periurethral transition zone (which signals the onset of BPH), which is the most estrogen-responsive part of the prostate. And, this proliferation of nodules and increased tissue growth is strongly associated with higher plasma estrogen (E2) and higher urinary estrogen secretion, but it’s not associated with T levels.(9)

SHBG

Sex hormone binding globulin is regarded as one of man’s big bugaboos.

Here’s why: In normal men, only about 2% of our Testosterone is "free," or unbound to carrier proteins. That means that presumably, only 2% is free to be ferried into cells to make muscle grow (among other things). About 54% is bound to albumin and other proteins, and 44% is bound to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, or SHBG, which is synthesized by the liver.

For years, strength athletes have been trying to figure out how to reduce the amount of SHBG so that more free Testosterone was available for all the good stuff, like muscle growth.

However, as studies that have been largely ignored by the strength community have revealed, it seems that we might all be full of hooey.

For one thing, it now seems that red blood cells function as carriers of sex hormones in the blood stream, and in fact may be responsible for as much as 15% of sex hormone delivery to target tissues.(7) What happens is that dissociation of this protein-bound hormone can occur within a capillary bed, meaning that it’s not just the "free stuff" that’s working.

The amount of hormone that can be carried depends on capillary transit time, half time of dissociation, amount of hormone bound to various carrier proteins, and permeability of cell membrane.

That means that these binding proteins in circulation act as kind of a steroid bank. In fact, it’s a lot like how hemoglobin regulates the amount of oxygen in each tissue.

(This may be why the free T levels of strength athletes always seem to come up quite low on blood tests. Obviously, they’re functioning just fine, but judging by their levels of free T, you’d think they were Girl Scouts.)

How does this tie with estrogen and prostate cancer? I’m glad you asked, Bunky. SHBG synthesis (as well as albumin) is regulated by estrogen/androgen balance, and SHBG has been shown to exist in a number of human tissues, including the testis and epididymis. One of SHBG’s traits is that it can increase the ease with which steroids penetrate the cell. It also facilitates steroid binding to the cell. In short, SHBG acts as an additional androgen receptor.(3)

Here’s the hypothesis formulated by Wells Farnsworth, one of the world’s leading prostate researchers:

"With advancing age, there is a decline in androgen secretion and a rise in circulating estrogen. This results in an increase in SHBG to bind to receptors in the prostatic stroma. Then, steroid (Estrogen, androgen) is bound to the SHBG receptor complex. If the steroid so bound is estradiol or an aromatizable precursor thereof, both stromal proliferation, exhibited as BPH, and the synthesis of IGF-1 will occur.

In sum, it may be that estrogen, mediated by SHBG, sets the pace for prostatic growth and function."

Prolactin

Prolactin is a hormone most commonly associated with the production of mother’s milk and possibly breast growth, while its role in males has been considered to be hazy at best. However, recent research reveals that prolactin is a heavy-duty hormone, possibly affecting more physiological processes than all other pituitary hormones combined.(2) And it’s now known to be produced at many sites outside the pituitary, including the prostate.

As far as the prostate is concerned, prolactin greatly increases the sensitivity of prostate tissue to androgen. Furthermore, it enhances the permeability of the prostate to Testosterone.

And guess what stimulates prolactin secretion? Estrogen.


A Few Words about DHT

While DHT is definitely involved in prostate growth, its role may be overstated. A researcher named Krieg found that the DHT level of subjects with normal prostates was much higher in prostatic epithelium than it was in prostatic stroma (the fibrous tissue inside the prostate). In fact, the amount of DHT in the epithelium of these healthy patients was much higher than it was in either the epithelium or stroma of patients between 50 and 95 years of age who suffered from BPH.(8)

In addition, the amount of epithelial DHT in both normal patients and those with BPH decreased significantly with age!

However, estrogen (E1 and E2) levels in both normal and BPH patients went up significantly with age.

What might be happening is that the amount of androgen receptors (DHT or otherwise) in the human prostate is increased by exposure to estrogen and that taking an anti-estrogen might keep the number of receptors in the prostate low, thus preventing androgen binding, transcription, and the resultant growth.


Let’s Wrap it Up

To summarize, estrogen levels, or the estrogen/androgen ratio rises with age, either because of an increase in the amount of estrogen itself; an increase in the production of the enzyme that turns T into E; or decreased production of Testosterone.

This ratio may also change from the use of certain steroids or pro-hormone supplements (thus leading to an increase in estrogen) and exposure to environmental estrogens.

Estrogen itself helps mediate prostate growth, but it’s also responsible for increasing levels of prolactin, which allows estrogen to get into the prostate more easily.

Estrogen also helps regulate the production of SHBG and albumin, which acts as carrier proteins for E on its journey to the prostate. Furthermore, these same binding proteins might also serve as additional estrogen receptor sites — or estrogen parking spaces — in the prostate.

Given this evidence, it seems that every living male might at some point wish to plan his prostate-protection strategy. Since I dabble in manipulating my own Testosterone levels, estrogen’s effects on the prostate are definitely a concern.

I’ve been taking 1 mg of the DHT-blocker finasteride every day for the last 7 years, but I might have been better off taking an anti-estrogen, had one been available to me. (Of course, finasteride still seems to be an effective drug in preventing hair loss, and I’ll continue to take it for that reason, at least until the new drug, dutasteride, is approved.)

Currently, the drugs of choice for blocking estrogen are probably Arimidex or clomiphene, both prescription drugs, but doctors are wary about prescribing them to otherwise-healthy individuals. As such, I have very high hopes for the new estrogen blocker we’re working on and plan on making it part of my daily pro-health cornucopia of pills.

I, for one, am going to take my dinner roll out of the oven before it starts to spill over the pan, if you catch my drift.
What About Saw Palmetto?

For years, most of us in either the life extensionist camp or the physique enhancement camp have touted saw palmetto extract as a weapon against prostate growth. Saw palmetto either blocked DHT from binding to receptor sites, or it somehow limited 5-alpha-reductase (the enzyme responsible for turning T into E) activity.

Trouble is, the largest review of the subject ever undertaken found that neither of the mechanisms "has ever been demonstrated convincingly to be operative in vivo at therapeutic doses."(6)

What they did find, however, was that the substance had some value in treating patients with lower urinary tract symptoms that suggested prostatic obstruction. That means that saw palmetto might just allow men with BPH to pee easier, while not directly affecting the prostate’s size in any way.

Even if saw palmetto is, at some point, vindicated, it doesn’t address what may turn out to be the true problem — estrogen.


References

1. Albert, J, et al., Prostate Concentrations of endogenous androgens by radioimmunoassay. J Steroid Biochem 7:301 (1976).

2. Ben-Jonathan, N., et al., Extra-pituitary prolactin distribution, regulation, functions, and clinical aspects. Endroc Rev 17:639-669 (1996)

3. Farnsworth, Wells E., Roles of Estrogen and SHBG in Prostate Physiology. The Prostate, 28:17-23 (1996)

4. Farnsworth, Wells E., Estrogen in the Etiopathogenesis of BPH. The Prostate, 41:263-274 (1999)

5. Gann, et al., A propective study of plasma hormone levels, nonhormonal factors, and development of BPH. Prostate 26:40-49 (1995)

6. Goepel, et al., Saw palmetto extracts potently and noncompetitively inhibit human a-adrenoceptors in vitro. Prostate, 38:208-215 (1999).

7. Koefoed, P., Brahm, J., The permeability of the human red cell membrane to steroid sex hormones. Biochim Biophys Acta. 1195:55-62 (1994).

8. Krieg, et al., Effect of aging on the endogenous level of 5-alpha-dihydrotesosterone, Testosterone, estradiol, and estrone in epithelium and stroma of normal and hyperplastic human prostate. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 77:375-381 (1993).

9. Seppult, U., Correlation among prostate stroma, estrogen levels and urinary estrogen secretion in patients with benign prostatic hypertrophy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 47:1230-1235 (1978).

10. Sitteri, PK, Wilson, JD, DHT in Prostatic Hypetrophy. J Clin Invest, 49:1737 (1970).

11. Wilson, JD, The intranuclear metabolism of Testosterone in the accessory organs of reproduction. Recent Prog Horm Res 26: 309 (1970) 

&#169; 1998 — 2001 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

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## zaggahamma

*EXCELLENT* read, Kale, thanks

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## Mighty Joe

Kale,

Thanks for posting that for us "OLD" dudes. 

I got a PM headed your way bro.

MJ

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## Mobligator

*Kale,* A very excellent summary of the biological mechanisms involved with our bodys utilization of testosterone , etc. Ive read some articles on aromatization of T. to E. and your hypothesis on estrogen as being the culprit in BPH would appear to fit in with my situation better than the commonly held theories of DHT. Estrogen is one test they never ran on me. I had taken exogenous testosterone for approximately 13 years before I got the cancer and suffered with BPH for as many if not more. I tried Proscar, for two reason actually, one to prevent the conversion of T to DHT and to shrink the prostate (which actually takes years to make any significant difference, if any) and to see if it kept my PSA lower post PCa treatment. It didnt work! The only thing now that seems to keep my PSA down is to keep my testosterone level down. Im now taking Flomax and Hytrin to relieve the urination problems which doesnt quite make any sense either, since my prostate has been charcoaled and shrunk to a pea size from all the radiation. I think both drugs, esp. the Flomax, exerts its influence more on the bladder and urinary tract. I think this BPH causing urinary problems is being overplayed too. There are many men with prostates much larger than mine without any urinary problems. As you already know the prostate is loaded with androgen receptors and converts much of the T. to DHT but I noticed when taking Proscar my libido was much lower. Maybe its true what they say about bald men being more potent.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  
*One question;* Do you know of any direct relationship to the levels of testosterone to PSA levels? I know when they put a man on the hormone ablation treatment his PSA will virtually fall to zero. (Actually the lowest mine ever went was <0.008) Being so low I thought maybe Id try taking a small dose of Test e, i.e. 75-80mg but 6 months later, _wham_, my PSA jumped up to 0.69. As a side note for anyone interested, my MD/Oncologist, told me that the machines they use to run PSAs are not accurate under nadir 0.2ng/ml, which is the point most Oncologists use as a cure rate. Some use 0.5 but thats pushing the button a little high. Cheers everybody and dont worry to much about PCa from taking designer drugs,e.g. Test., it hasnt been proven that there is any cause/effect relationship. But once a man does have it, taking Test. is like throwing gasoline on a fire. :No No:

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## Mobligator

_Here's a little poem that was written by John Lange from Colorada, while staying at Hope Lodge in Atlanta, where we were both patients being treated for prostate cancer. Everyone thought it was really cute since we all were going through the same experiences. Hope ya'll enjoy._  :Strong Smiley:  

THE PSA BLUES

Then the doctor said hey, youve got a high PSA.
If we dont catch it now, youll die of cancer some day.
Youve got to move fast, youve got to move quick,
Lets cut out that cancer, before you get sick.

Hold on just a sec, I said to the doc
My head was still reeling, my brain was in shock.
Just where is this prostate, and what does it do?
Just what am I losing, if I give it to you?

Its this little old blob that holds back your pee,
He said with a shrug, as he handed to me
The pump that would help me pump up my member.
Youll be back in the saddle as soon as September.

The girls will all love your shiny new thing.
Youll stay up for hours, youll make them all sing.
No thanks, I said as I ran for the door.
Ill try something else. Theres gotta be more.

I read all the books, I stayed up for nights
And thats how I heard of old Dr. Critz.
The doctors and tekkies at R C O G.
Were said to be skillful and kind as could be.

With a sprinkling of seeds made from hot iodine
In a couple of weeks Id be doing just fine.
No pump and no diapers, just a few weeks of rays
That would burn up the cancer over thirty-five days.

The choice was so clear like a gift from old Santa.
And thats how I came to be here in Atlanta.
And the folks at Hope Lodge are the best of the best.
Thats the end of my story, you know all the rest.

----------


## zaggahamma

LOL...Mobligator....It's great you had/have some nice support. On a more serious note, sorry...since I'm not QUITE through the woods, yet...What kind of symptoms did you get.....Like I said in a previous thread that I have FOR SOME TIME...after urinating..had to squeeze and shake a little extra more common for like MY DAD or something...and I had mentioned it to a family doctor years ago and he just laughed it off and said not to worry....but other than that like I have pains in hips/upper thighs that I used to think was due to several auto accidents and since my first endo did a DRE and said my little walnut was nice and smooth and small I felt assured, but now with the URO feeling something and they are more qualified...I just wondered what you thought of those symptoms...thanks again

----------


## Ufa

?????????

----------


## Kale

> *Kale,* A very excellent summary of the biological mechanisms involved with our bodys utilization of testosterone , etc. Ive read some articles on aromatization of T. to E. and your hypothesis on estrogen as being the culprit in BPH would appear to fit in with my situation better than the commonly held theories of DHT. Estrogen is one test they never ran on me. I had taken exogenous testosterone for approximately 13 years before I got the cancer and suffered with BPH for as many if not more. I tried Proscar, for two reason actually, one to prevent the conversion of T to DHT and to shrink the prostate (which actually takes years to make any significant difference, if any) and to see if it kept my PSA lower post PCa treatment. It didnt work! The only thing now that seems to keep my PSA down is to keep my testosterone level down. Im now taking Flomax and Hytrin to relieve the urination problems which doesnt quite make any sense either, since my prostate has been charcoaled and shrunk to a pea size from all the radiation. I think both drugs, esp. the Flomax, exerts its influence more on the bladder and urinary tract. I think this BPH causing urinary problems is being overplayed too. There are many men with prostates much larger than mine without any urinary problems. As you already know the prostate is loaded with androgen receptors and converts much of the T. to DHT but I noticed when taking Proscar my libido was much lower. Maybe its true what they say about bald men being more potent.  
> *One question;* *Do you know of any direct relationship to the levels of testosterone to PSA levels*? I know when they put a man on the hormone ablation treatment his PSA will virtually fall to zero. (Actually the lowest mine ever went was <0.008) Being so low I thought maybe Id try taking a small dose of Test e, i.e. 75-80mg but 6 months later, _wham_, my PSA jumped up to 0.69. As a side note for anyone interested, my MD/Oncologist, told me that the machines they use to run PSAs are not accurate under nadir 0.2ng/ml, which is the point most Oncologists use as a cure rate. Some use 0.5 but thats pushing the button a little high. Cheers everybody and dont worry to much about PCa from taking designer drugs,e.g. Test., it hasnt been proven that there is any cause/effect relationship. But once a man does have it, taking Test. is like throwing gasoline on a fire.


I can only speak from personal experience. I dont have Prostate Cancer but I do have BPH. I have been on HRT and done one cycle since I was diagnosed and my PSA levels were the same until I went on Proscar, my PSA levels have dropped a bit since then, but Test has made no difference to my PSA levels at all.

----------


## zaggahamma

Kale, you ever have any of the symptoms I was talking about....hip area pains?

----------


## Mobligator

> I can only speak from personal experience. I dont have Prostate Cancer but I do have BPH. I have been on HRT and done one cycle since I was diagnosed and my PSA levels were the same until I went on Proscar, my PSA levels have dropped a bit since then, but Test has made no difference to my PSA levels at all.


Thanks for the reply Kale. I have been entertaining the hypothesis that perhaps this cause/effect relationship might be unique to me since I had PCa or God forbid that there may still be some residue of Ca left. :Hmmmm:  _One PCA cell produces 10 times more PSA than one normal prostate cell._  Keep up the good work suppying informative info for all the members, its obvious you are very knowledgeable and presumably do much research.

----------


## zaggahamma

MO-gator..u ever have the hip pains?

----------


## Mobligator

> LOL...Mobligator....It's great you had/have some nice support. On a more serious note, sorry...since I'm not QUITE through the woods, yet...What kind of symptoms did you get.....Like I said in a previous thread that I have FOR SOME TIME...after urinating..had to squeeze and shake a little extra more common for like MY DAD or something...and I had mentioned it to a family doctor years ago and he just laughed it off and said not to worry....but other than that like I have pains in hips/upper thighs that I used to think was due to several auto accidents and since my first endo did a DRE and said my little walnut was nice and smooth and small I felt assured, but now with the URO feeling something and they are more qualified...I just wondered what you thought of those symptoms...thanks again


Glad you liked the poem. The guy who wrote it was actually a writer by profession. Boggles my mind how people come up with stuff like that.  :Hmmmm:  
I honestly don't believe the pains in your hips have anything to do with your prostate. Then again I'm not a MD but I've never encountered anyone with PCa who had symptoms of hip pains. Usually the symptoms are painless with PCa which is why so many people used to go undiagnosed before they started using the marker of PSA, i.e. _prior to circa 1987._ I personally think and again this is just my opinion, that if there was anything large enough on your prosate to be felt it would be reflected in your PSA. It only takes 3 microscopic cancer cells in your prostate or blood stream to raised your PSA. PCa cells produce 10 times more PSA than normal cells.Even a benign tumor on your prostate will raise the PSA and so will BPH. Go with the Free PSA first but until that shows some reason for concern, I'd just sit back, relax, have a drink of nice red wine and not worry. Even if the worst senario came true and you do at sometime develop PCa, remember it is a very slow growing type of cancer and you'll have plenty of time to have it treated. I hesitate to say that your Euro might be trying to cover his ass by wanting you to have more tests or to generate more $ for someone, or if he's genuinely trying to triage you as competantly as possible but regardless, "always get a second opinion" . Dr. Critz, the founder of RCOG in Atlanta would always tell us, "Never trust the medical profession"! It's true too, you wouldn't believe some of the tales the patients at RCOG had to tell. 
When I was young we had a saying, that "if you shook it more than twice you were playing with it".  :0piss:   :Ccjerkit:  LOL Who makes up all this s--t! When I was in H.S. we didn't even have electric adding machines. No TV either. No Test!  :Depressed:  But I don't think an extra shake or two or a couple squeezes is uncommon. Better than walking out of the rest room with wet pants. Wait until you develop BPH. And you will if you live long enough and take enough juice. Flomax is great stuff for that tho. Hang in there.

----------


## zaggahamma

Saw Uro today for new bloodwork (PSA and free PSA)...Both still low 
0.3 and .13 (Free) The free PSA didn't have a reference range but it was next to nothing and showed in range (the nurse had no idea why there was no reference range) the doc didn't even go over the free PSA (I forgot to ask) He's just raring to go with the biopsy and informed me of his most recent and youngest ever prostate cancer patient (32) that didn't have a high PSA and still had cancer. They even sent a sample to Johns Hopkins and it was confirmed. Well, I decided to have the biopsy done, but at a hospital with anasthesia.

----------


## Kale

> Saw Uro today for new bloodwork (PSA and free PSA)...Both still low 
> 0.3 and .13 (Free) The free PSA didn't have a reference range but it was next to nothing and showed in range (the nurse had no idea why there was no reference range) the doc didn't even go over the free PSA (I forgot to ask) He's just raring to go with the biopsy and informed me of his most recent and youngest ever prostate cancer patient (32) that didn't have a high PSA and still had cancer. They even sent a sample to Johns Hopkins and it was confirmed. *Well, I decided to have the biopsy done,* but at a hospital with anasthesia.


You are fvcking nuts !!! Have you had a second opinion ?

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## zaggahamma

> You are fvcking nuts !!! Have you had a second opinion ?


i'm assuming you mean having the biopsy with the low PSA? Did you read the part about the 32 year old?
Little harsh with the nuts and fvck!
You think I WANT the procedure? Hell fvckin now! 
After I went to that uro the first time and he felt something (hard nodule) I went back to my endo and she WOULDN'T check it and asked why....you're only 37 and low psa...like you're saying.
I can't keep shooting test if I might have something.

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## Ufa

jpkman----Kale is extremely smart in this area. He is like the
teacher. I'd pm him if I were you. If you had cancer you would
have blood in stool, urine, ect. Your psa would be 50 times what 
you have. The longer this thing goes on the less likely you don't
have cancer. Cancer will tear you apart so fast you would know
by now. (Get a second opinion) --my opinion.

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## zaggahamma

bump

----------


## Kale

> i'm assuming you mean having the biopsy with the low PSA? Did you read the part about the 32 year old?
> Little harsh with the nuts and fvck!
> You think I WANT the procedure? Hell fvckin now! 
> After I went to that uro the first time and he felt something (hard nodule) I went back to my endo and she WOULDN'T check it and asked why....you're only 37 and low psa...like you're saying.
> I can't keep shooting test if I might have something.


Mate I appologise if I came off like an ass but I dont want to see you do something to yourself that can have long term repercussions if it isnt necessary. If they cut your Prostate you could end up with no sex life. Do you want that ? If your PSA is so low the chances of you having cancer are almost zero. I am willing to bet money that the nodule is just calcification. Have you had an Untrasound ? If not, why not ? This is a basic diagnostic tool and I cant believe he is talking biopsy without having done one. I am begging you to get another opinion before you do this !!!!

----------


## zaggahamma

> Mate I appologise if I came off like an ass but I dont want to see you do something to yourself that can have long term repercussions if it isnt necessary. If they cut your Prostate you could end up with no sex life. Do you want that ? If your PSA is so low the chances of you having cancer are almost zero. I am willing to bet money that the nodule is just calcification. Have you had an Untrasound ? If not, why not ? This is a basic diagnostic tool and I cant believe he is talking biopsy without having done one. I am begging you to get another opinion before you do this !!!!


kale, thanks....i just saw you chimed back....actually got to do a little fishing today  :7up:  
no apology necessary...i thought you meant well..it didn't sound like your usual constructive self....sometimes my passion for things come out like that, too....so thanks
this uro says that he can't rule anything out with only the ultrasound....he says they have to do both at the same time....they use the ultrasound just to help find the area to cut ....i remember you saying that yours was ruled out with just the ultrasound, and i brought it up to them but they said it won't rule it out
i got a little impatient when after that i went back to my endo to get her to check my prostate and she said NO, WHY....these docs man  :Icon Pissedoff:  
so I was just going to get the biopsy done to rule it out for sure, didn't know the biopsy was with that much risk that you just mentioned. You have my word that I will talk with another uro, research in depth this more b4 i do it...and if I find out that a uro can rule this shiat out with only an utra, i'm gonna be PISSED and owe you a big A$$ THANKS...I appreciate what you've contributed already
thanks

----------


## Kale

> kale, thanks....i just saw you chimed back....actually got to do a little fishing today  
> no apology necessary...i thought you meant well..it didn't sound like your usual constructive self....sometimes my passion for things come out like that, too....so thanks
> this uro says that he can't rule anything out with only the ultrasound....he says they have to do both at the same time....they use the ultrasound just to help find the area to cut ....i remember you saying that yours was ruled out with just the ultrasound, and i brought it up to them but they said it won't rule it out
> i got a little impatient when after that i went back to my endo to get her to check my prostate and she said NO, WHY....these docs man  
> so I was just going to get the biopsy done to rule it out for sure, didn't know the biopsy was with that much risk that you just mentioned. You have my word that I will talk with another uro, research in depth this more b4 i do it...and if I find out that a uro can rule this shiat out with only an utra, i'm gonna be PISSED and owe you a big A$$ THANKS...I appreciate what you've contributed already
> thanks


Man no problem, all I want is for you to talk to somebody else and find out why a biospy is needed for such a low PSA.. When they did the ultrasound on me the Uro said He saw calcification but it was OK so they know what they are looking for. Now there is a chance when they do the biopsy that they can cause damage that will effect your sex drive. With a BPH resection, which is what they do when its so enlarged that it needs to be reduced by surgery, they go in through the eye of your penis and they pear it down with a hot wire, so sex drive can be afftected but its not a given by any stretch of the imagination. What is a given is that when you ejaculate the sperm will not leave through the penis anymore, it is shot backwards into the bladder and urinated out later. You need to enquire about these possibilities if they do insist on a biopsy. You also need to get a contructive answer form the Uro and why he thinks there is possible cancer when the PSA is so low. This just makes no sense to me.. I know a lot about this because, one I have BPH, and two both my step father, and father in-law have both had Prostate Cancer and PSA was the defining diagnostic !!!

----------


## Mobligator

Saw Uro today for new bloodwork (PSA and free PSA)...Both still low 
0.3 and .13 (Free) The free PSA didn't have a reference range but it was next to nothing and showed in range (the nurse had no idea why there was no reference range) the doc didn't even go over the free PSA (I forgot to ask) He's just raring to go with the biopsy and informed me of his most recent and youngest ever prostate cancer patient (32) that didn't have a high PSA and still had cancer. They even sent a sample to Johns Hopkins and it was confirmed. Well, I decided to have the biopsy done, but at a hospital with anasthesia.

Man no problem, all I want is for you to talk to somebody else and find out why a biospy is needed for such a low PSA.. When they did the ultrasound on me the Uro said He saw calcification but it was OK so they know what they are looking for. Now there is a chance when they do the biopsy that they can cause damage that will effect your sex drive. With a BPH resection, which is what they do when its so enlarged that it needs to be reduced by surgery, they go in through the eye of your penis and they pear it down with a hot wire, so sex drive can be afftected but its not a given by any stretch of the imagination. What is a given is that when you ejaculate the sperm will not leave through the penis anymore, it is shot backwards into the bladder and urinated out later. You need to enquire about these possibilities if they do insist on a biopsy. You also need to get a contructive answer form the Uro and why he thinks there is possible cancer when the PSA is so low. This just makes no sense to me.. I know a lot about this because, one I have BPH, and two both my step father, and father in-law have both had Prostate Cancer and PSA was the defining diagnostic !!!
************************************************** ****************************
Jpkman,

Your urologist is absolutely right by suggesting a biopsy. By all means have it done!!! Your Free PSA is very low and depending on the lab, anything less than 25-27 is in the danger zone. The PSA is a good diagnostic tool but it is not perfect. The Free PSA is also a good diagnostic tool but unfortunately it is likewise not perfect but it is an improvement on the regular PSA. The Free PSA can usually tell whether or not the tumor, if there is one, is benign or malignant. This test has a reported sensitivity of about 72 percent and a specificity of 95 percent. (Sensitivity is the ability to detect the disease when it's truly there. Specificity is the ability to detect the absence of disease when it is truly absent.)

_Most patients with prostate cancer have a free PSA less than 15%.
Patients with free PSA over 25% usually have benign prostate hyperplasia.
The free PSA threshold of less than 25% is more specific for a diagnosis of cancer and avoids the need for biopsy in about 20% of patients who would otherwise undergo this procedure based upon total PSA alone. However, up to 30 percent of men who do in fact have prostate cancer have a normal total PSA blood level._

The biopsy *will not* cause you any problems with your sex drive! Ive had three of them done, all under intravenous anesthesia. Takes about 20-30 minutes, no pain or after effects. Dont ever let them do one with out anesthesia though! Hurts like hell! A good biopsy should take at least six samples in six different areas of your prostate but nine are better. The needle used is very thin and it can miss the tumor if the Uro doesnt have sufficient experience doing them. Think of a tic tat toe square overlaid on your prostate and a sample taken from each square. The problem is they cant actually see the cancer in the prostate with an Ultra Sound. If it comes back positive *dont panic*. Prostate is very slow growing and you will have plenty of time to decide how you want it treated. I had "brachytherapy" plus 7 weeks of "external conformal beam radiation", the same treatment Rudy Gulliana had only I had mine done in Atlanta, GA and he went to Mount Sinai Medical Center, N.Y.
Stay away from the TURP, Transurethral resection (Rotor Rooter) if you possibly can. They have medications that will help BPH that work very well, "Flomax" is one of the best and a newer one is "Avodart". I take Flomax and Hytrin but the Flomax is better. If you do need an operation to relieve the urinary symptoms there are other newer methods than the _old antiquated_ rotor rooter. One is a balloon method similar to what they use in angioplastia, (my brother had this done), another method is Ultra Sound, and I believe they can also do it by Laser surgery. The old Rotor Rooter method is like a plumber cleaning out clogged up drains and if the surgeon goes a fraction of an inch too far and damages the bladder valve you re in deep sh-t.

----------


## zaggahamma

mobligator, thanks for chiming in
I wanted to make sure that my free psa was .13 total but the % was 43.3...does this make any difference in your reccomendation?
and also, when i was asking about having a little leakage after urination is a sign of prostate probs, he said they can do a cyscopathy (I problably didn't get that right) but you might know what i'm talking about....they plan on doing that at the same time as the biopsy....i've had that for probably over 10 years.
Oh, and what he felt with the DRE was a decent size nodule (hard)...his words, "could be calcification"...he said that twice in 2 visits, but he also said that he can't prescribe any hormones unless a biopsy was done because of this DRE finding.
But, let me know if the free psa total and the percentage that i just updated makes any difference in what you said in your last post or anything else to add is greatly appreciated.
thanks *a lot*

----------


## zaggahamma

> Man no problem, all I want is for you to talk to somebody else and find out why a biospy is needed for such a low PSA.. When they did the ultrasound on me the Uro said He saw calcification but it was OK so they know what they are looking for. Now there is a chance when they do the biopsy that they can cause damage that will effect your sex drive. With a BPH resection, which is what they do when its so enlarged that it needs to be reduced by surgery, they go in through the eye of your penis and they pear it down with a hot wire, so sex drive can be afftected but its not a given by any stretch of the imagination. What is a given is that when you ejaculate the sperm will not leave through the penis anymore, it is shot backwards into the bladder and urinated out later. You need to enquire about these possibilities if they do insist on a biopsy. You also need to get a contructive answer form the Uro and why he thinks there is possible cancer when the PSA is so low. This just makes no sense to me.. I know a lot about this because, one I have BPH, and two both my step father, and father in-law have both had Prostate Cancer and PSA was the defining diagnostic !!!


I definately don't have a problem getting 2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions. I am not even sure if i am at total ease with my uro's demeanor...he really is quite arrogant in my opinion, and I don't know if i should take that as confidence in knowing a great deal. I have that feeling that he knows he's good at what he does and doesn't even have to prove it. It's like just do what the doctor says and don't ask ?'s.

----------


## Mobligator

> mobligator, thanks for chiming in
> I wanted to make sure that my free psa was .13 total but the % was 43.3...does this make any difference in your reccomendation?
> and also, when i was asking about having a little leakage after urination is a sign of prostate probs, he said they can do a cyscopathy (I problably didn't get that right) but you might know what i'm talking about....they plan on doing that at the same time as the biopsy....i've had that for probably over 10 years.
> Oh, and what he felt with the DRE was a decent size nodule (hard)...his words, "could be calcification"...he said that twice in 2 visits, but he also said that he can't prescribe any hormones unless a biopsy was done because of this DRE finding.
> But, let me know if the free psa total and the percentage that i just updated makes any difference in what you said in your last post or anything else to add is greatly appreciated.
> thanks *a lot*


jpkman,

"Yes a free psa of 43 makes a world of difference!" The higher it is over 25 the less chance that it's anything malignant. Chances are it is calcification or it could be a benign tumor but it's my understanding that even benign tumors will cause the diagnostic PSA to rise. So will BPH but your PSA is low. I forgot to mention in my previous message that if they even suspect the possiblilty of cancer they will stop all testosterone treatments. Yea he's thinking about running a scope up your penis and you can be thankful you'll be under anethesia for that one too. I had that done once back around 1987 sitting in a chair, similar to a dentist chair and they told me they would use a local to numb it first so it wouldn't be painful. *They lied!* The nurse came out with this tube about 7-8 n long and bigger around than an ink pen and I asked her what that was for and she said that was the local. I think I put my finger prints indentations in the arms of that chair before she got that hose up my dick and it hurt like hell. *Never again!!!* If she wouldn't have been a woman I'd decked her ass and walked out of that quacks office.

----------


## zaggahamma

> jpkman,
> 
> "Yes a free psa of 43 makes a world of difference!" The higher it is over 25 the less chance that it's anything malignant. Chances are it is calcification or it could be a benign tumor but it's my understanding that even benign tumors will cause the diagnostic PSA to rise. So will BPH but your PSA is low. I forgot to mention in my previous message that if they even suspect the possiblilty of cancer they will stop all testosterone treatments. Yea he's thinking about running a scope up your penis and you can be thankful you'll be under anethesia for that one too. I had that done once back around 1987 sitting in a chair, similar to a dentist chair and they told me they would use a local to numb it first so it wouldn't be painful. *They lied!* The nurse came out with this tube about 7-8 n long and bigger around than an ink pen and I asked her what that was for and she said that was the local. I think I put my finger prints indentations in the arms of that chair before she got that hose up my dick and it hurt like hell. *Never again!!!* If she wouldn't have been a woman I'd decked her ass and walked out of that quacks office.


That's reassuring....do you think that I should still go through with the biopsy or get 2nd opinion? It is scheduled this Wednesday!
He's not the doc writing the RX for my test and I self administer...I didn't stop after the DRE since the biopsy was pretty close and would have known what it was soon enough.
And there is no mention of any penis tubes or procedures by my doc...that was kale's post informing me of the diff procedures and risks...they are doing ultrasound/biopsy together and cyscopathy to see what could be cause of urine leakage.
hope your still around

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## Ufa

The biopsy *will not* cause you any problems with your sex drive! Ive had three of them done................

Is this something jpkman can look foward to. Why three. Did you have cancer or just a over enthauastic Doc? Maybe jpkman should just move into the
Hospital. His blood levels are out of wack because of testosterone . Why did
his Doc not mention the low free PSA levels as a reason like you did? If he has cancer why are there no symptoms?

----------


## zaggahamma

> The biopsy *will not* cause you any problems with your sex drive! Ive had three of them done................
> 
> Is this something jpkman can look foward to. Why three. Did you have cancer or just a over enthauastic Doc? Maybe jpkman should just move into the
> Hospital. His blood levels are out of wack because of testosterone . Why did
> his Doc not mention the low free PSA levels as a reason like you did? If he has cancer why are there no symptoms?


Ufa, that reminds me....my uro didn't even go over the free PSA...i found out that later when the office man. was goin over my hospital procedures for the biopsy....the 2 times i saw him he gets up like while i'm still asking ?'s like fred flinstone when the quitting whistle blows..wtf?  :LOL:  Oh, and mobligator does/did have prostate cancer..he's chimed in on my threads b4.
Mobligator, bump on my last post....you did say that the 43% changes everything....did that mean wait for 2nd opinion for a biopsy in your opinion. My uro actually could care less about the psa...he's going on the DRE....and you did state that 30% of prostate cancer patients don't have high psa's....that's the part that makes me lean towards having it done, but should I wait for a 2nd opinion....I wish I could just call an interview them over the phone....get a free quote...like geico  :LOL:  I can ask if they can rule out cancer with just an ultrasound...like kale mentioned...my doc is saying no to that.
 :Bbbump:

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## Ufa

jpkman--Kale---is the God Father of in this field. I like Mobligator however,
because of his cancer he will tend to be over cautious. My girl-friend's father
ignored blood in stool and urine and is doing fine 15 years later. This went 
on for a year.

I would research the symptoms of 'prostste cancer' If your Endo is not concerned. What about annother dig rectal? 

I would listen to Kale. He has true life experience. This has been going on
for a couple of months. Why haven't there been any symptoms? This stress
is most likely making your life unpleasant.

----------


## zaggahamma

> jpkman--Kale---is the God Father of in this field. I like Mobligator however,
> because of his cancer he will tend to be over cautious. My girl-friend's father
> ignored blood in stool and urine and is doing fine 15 years later. This went 
> on for a year.
> 
> I would research the symptoms of 'prostste cancer' If your Endo is not concerned. What about annother dig rectal? 
> 
> I would listen to Kale. He has true life experience. This has been going on
> for a couple of months. Why haven't there been any symptoms? This stress
> is most likely making your life unpleasant.


thanks ufa...i know kale is knowledgeable on the subject and i appreciate his input....i know debates sometimes bring out the most light on any subject. I hope he is right FOR SURE. 
Anybody else please feel free to add anything.
I have the procedure planned this Wednesday and am not looking forward to it, but I need to be reassured. :Icon Rolleyes:

----------


## Mobligator

JPKMAN,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, I had to go out. 
You said:
_< he said they can do a cyscopathy (I problably didn't get that right) but you might know what i'm talking about....they plan on doing that at the same time as the biopsy...>_

I assumed you might have had the spelling wrong and meant* "cystoscopy"* which is when they use a scope to go up your penis to check out the prostate and/or the bladder. There is however a 'medical condition' called *"cystopathy"* but it is common with diabetics and usually involves Urinary Retention but since I'm not familiar with this condition I don't know if it involves the leakage problem you mentioned. They do use the cystoscopy to check for problems with incontinence. Perhaps your Uro is thinking along these lines in regards to the leaking propblem.

When I was being treated for prostate cancer (March thru June 2002), I was told they could not see the prostate cancer with a CAT or the Ultra Sound. I had heard about a special MRI that was supposed to see the cancer but there were only two of them in the U.S., one in CA and one in N.Y. They used the Ultra Sound to guide the radioactive seeds into the prostate and the CAt to see the placement of the seeds afterwards to determine if the seeding pattern was sufficient to radiate the entire prostate. They also used the CAT to check the size of the prostate but that can also be done with the Ultra Sound. 
That was then! Now I understand they have a new machine called the *G.E. Discovery ST* (manufactured by GE) which is a combination of a PET and a CAT but the Discovery is better then the PET or the CAT alone and is able to actually see the cancer anywhere in the body and if the cancer is too small to see, it will show cellular activity that indicates the possibility of cancer developing. BTW, the ST stands for "See and Treat". Most large Hospitals have them now, e.g. Johns Hopkins, Sloan-Kettering, Mount Sinai, even the small Hospital in Winber, PA which is outside of Johnstown, PA has one.

However jpkman, "I'd be willing to bet the ranch that you do not have prostate cancer!" No way Jose'. And if they do the Ultrasound and a cystoscopy while you are under you wont have any side effects from it, unless there might be a small amount of blood in your urine the first time you go. Your Uro might want to check out the bladder valve and the hard spot on your prostate with the scope, (if that is the right word he used, "cystoscopy". Doctors talk funny sometimes.

----------


## zaggahamma

thanks mobligator, i didn't think i had it spelled right but figured you'd know what i meant when i mentioned the symptom. Once again, my uro didn't explain what THAT procedure entailed. He led me to assume they could check the leakage problem during the ultra/biopsy, so I thought that would only involve one orifice...but this cystoscopy is no biggie? It must be different than the procedure kale mentioned in thread #48 about going in the eye of the penis to work on the prostate. I think I'll google cystoscopy today and do a little reading.
Much thanks again

----------


## Kale

Mobligator I am stoked you have joined this board man. I am not going to high jack this thread with questions so expect a few PM's from me in the future with regards to BPH treatment.

----------


## marcus300

Kale your the man, good feedback and knowledge and a valued member of this board, 

What natural liquids or supps help in the area of the prostate?

----------


## Kale

> Kale your the man, good feedback and knowledge and a valued member of this board, 
> 
> What natural liquids or supps help in the area of the prostate?


Thanks Markus. !!! There are two that I am aware of, Beta-Sitosterol and Saw Palmetto, I understand that Beta-Sisosterol is a lot stronger than Saw Palmetto. Now from the studies I have read on Saw Palmetto the general consensus is that it has minimal to no impact on BPH. The only feedback I have on Beta Sisoterol is Testimonial but I would be willing to give that a try first.

----------


## marcus300

Looked at these supps before, thanks might have to invest in some,

----------


## zaggahamma

Are all antibiotics pretty much the same. If I go through with my biopsy/cysto procedures, they have me taking Levaquin(levofloxacin) day or 2 b4 and was reading that i should demand a good anti-b to prevent infection. I'm allergic to penecillin  :Frown:

----------


## zaggahamma

Well, Not completely out of the woods til samples come back.....BUT....
Doc said LOOKS LIKE CALCIFICATION!!!!!!  :7up:  

I'm real optomistic about it. No problems at the hospital. I had to fast since midnite last night...went in at 1:30....finally got some crackers around 6:00. Man, I was trying to snatch chicken legs off of the plates headin BACK to the kitchen  :LOL:  

Thanks again bros

----------


## Kale

Told you so !!! Glad to hear you are going to be OK, which you are. Now an interesting update from me, I went to the urologist yesterday, a new one, and had a long chat about steroids , BPH and Prostate Cancer and I learned a hell of a lot. Actually he even showed me pics of how they do the biopsy you just had.... ouch dude !!! 

So the long and short of it is my BPH is pretty much stable and this is just after doing a very big cycle as well, he did an untra sound and it is still pretty much the same or a fraction bigger, it sitting at about 58 ml in size which is still pretty big given a normal one is between 10 and 15 ml, but he said the biggest he had seen was over 200ml so I still have a way to go yet. We went over all the options for surgery if required in the future. We also went over the options for Prostate Cancer treatement if that ever occurrs. They have come a long way with total resection surgery rather than radiation now using robotic 3d surgery. He says they can actually get the prostate out now with minimal chance of damage to the nerves that control erections so that there is still an excellent possibility of having a normal sex life after a total Prostate resection, just interesting to know.

So fo me its a wait and see what happens over the next few years, but at this stage all is reasonably well. The only real downer was that he found I have an Umbilical Hernia which will need to be fixed and will keep me out of the gym for a month or so which just fvcking sucks ass. Dont need to get it fixed right away but fairly soon anyway.

I had a long chat about Test and what causes BPH and he openly said they didnt really know what caused it but that they eliminated everything that was a possible cause. I was amazing his response when I took him to task on the whole test thing. He talked about the Test conversion to DHT and I asked him why they never measured DHT and I added that I had it tested and he looked at me with a shocked look and said what was the result, then he went on to try and say that DHT levels were so variable that it wasnt a good measurement which to me sounded like he was grasping for an answer. Quite amazing really. 

I told him I had read studies that Estrogen was another probable cause as Estrogen rises with age as Test drops, again he didnt have a good answer, it was in the, "we just dont know" bucket. All in all a very interesting two hours. 

Anyway glad you are doing OK mate !!!!

----------


## Mighty Joe

Kale,

Glad you're here bro! I just hope some of the brutha's on here can appreciate just how much you bring to the table for us older BB's. 
Any way keep us posted on the hernia thing. The quicker you get that done the faster you're back in the gym!

Good Luck bro,

MJ

----------


## zaggahamma

> Told you so !!! Glad to hear you are going to be OK, which you are. Now an interesting update from me, I went to the urologist yesterday, a new one, and had a long chat about steroids , BPH and Prostate Cancer and I learned a hell of a lot. Actually he even showed me pics of how they do the biopsy you just had.... ouch dude !!! 
> 
> So the long and short of it is my BPH is pretty much stable and this is just after doing a very big cycle as well, he did an untra sound and it is still pretty much the same or a fraction bigger, it sitting at about 58 ml in size which is still pretty big given a normal one is between 10 and 15 ml, but he said the biggest he had seen was over 200ml so I still have a way to go yet. We went over all the options for surgery if required in the future. We also went over the options for Prostate Cancer treatement if that ever occurrs. They have come a long way with total resection surgery rather than radiation now using robotic 3d surgery. He says they can actually get the prostate out now with minimal chance of damage to the nerves that control erections so that there is still an excellent possibility of having a normal sex life after a total Prostate resection, just interesting to know.
> 
> So fo me its a wait and see what happens over the next few years, but at this stage all is reasonably well. The only real downer was that he found I have an Umbilical Hernia which will need to be fixed and will keep me out of the gym for a month or so which just fvcking sucks ass. Dont need to get it fixed right away but fairly soon anyway.
> 
> I had a long chat about Test and what causes BPH and he openly said they didnt really know what caused it but that they eliminated everything that was a possible cause. I was amazing his response when I took him to task on the whole test thing. He talked about the Test conversion to DHT and I asked him why they never measured DHT and I added that I had it tested and he looked at me with a shocked look and said what was the result, then he went on to try and say that DHT levels were so variable that it wasnt a good measurement which to me sounded like he was grasping for an answer. Quite amazing really. 
> 
> I told him I had read studies that Estrogen was another probable cause as Estrogen rises with age as Test drops, again he didnt have a good answer, it was in the, "we just dont know" bucket. All in all a very interesting two hours. 
> ...


Big thanks Kale,

You did come to mind when I was writing this post. "He's gonna say told ya so"  :LOL:  
I'm glad we can laugh about it now....well, at least for now and I'm feeling pretty confident. The other procedure aftermath aint feelin so hot as you can imagine and I got no feedback from him at all on that. He pulled one of his vanishing acts again. I blink when I'm talkin to him and he's gone. Gonna suck when copays go up next WEEK. It's gonna be a lot easier just to be all clinic. They're more knowledgeable anyway.

Really big thanks for all support

Feelin for you about your upcoming procedure and time off from training. I know how we love and need our routines. We'll help you through and best of luck with it

thanks again

----------


## comradebillyboy

> Big thanks Kale,
> 
> You did come to mind when I was writing this post. "He's gonna say told ya so"  
> I'm glad we can laugh about it now....well, at least for now and I'm feeling pretty confident. The other procedure aftermath aint feelin so hot as you can imagine and I got no feedback from him at all on that. He pulled one of his vanishing acts again. I blink when I'm talkin to him and he's gone. Gonna suck when copays go up next WEEK. It's gonna be a lot easier just to be all clinic. They're more knowledgeable anyway.
> 
> Really big thanks for all support
> 
> Feelin for you about your upcoming procedure and time off from training. I know how we love and need our routines. We'll help you through and best of luck with it
> 
> thanks again


Sounds like he is an arrogant bastard. No feedback at least means no bad news. My wishes for the best.

----------


## Ufa

I'm glad to your back in one piece. They will most likely send 
cutting to Mayo Clinic to make sure there is no cancer.

At least there are no more doubts, second thoughts. It's
all down hill now.

----------


## zaggahamma

> Sounds like he is an arrogant bastard. No feedback at least means no bad news. My wishes for the best.


Thanks CB.

----------


## zaggahamma

> I'm glad to your back in one piece. They will most likely send 
> cutting to Mayo Clinic to make sure there is no cancer.
> 
> At least there are no more doubts, second thoughts. It's
> all down hill now.


Thanks Ufa. 

I'm going to call and cofirm what they're doing with my bits and pieces, why no testo for 2 weeks, and what came about from the cystoscopy.

----------


## Ufa

> Thanks Ufa. 
> 
> I'm going to call and cofirm what they're doing with my bits and pieces, why no testo for 2 weeks, and what came about from the cystoscopy.


Well unfortunately, the Doc & Hospital made money and 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
Sorry, I'd like to kick them in the ass.

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## zaggahamma

> Well unfortunately, the Doc & Hospital made money and 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
> Sorry, I'd like to kick them in the ass.


Now you're quoting Meatloaf  :LOL:  

No kidding....just got off the phone with the nurse...she doesn't know for sure where my samples are going...could stay at hospital, could even be done at the doc's office....doc won't be back til tommorrow...that's the soonest I'll know anything more than i do now  :Icon Pissedoff:

----------


## Kale

> Now you're quoting Meatloaf  
> 
> No kidding....just got off the phone with the nurse...she doesn't know for sure where my samples are going...could stay at hospital, could even be done at the doc's office....doc won't be back til tommorrow...that's the soonest I'll know anything more than i do now


What a bunch of cockheads, and the know you are waiting on a potential cancer diagnosis. I would be abusing the crap out of your Dr mate, that is just crap !!!

By the way I got a second opinion on the hernia today from my Dr and he said it was so small he wouldnt bother doing anything about it and that I have probably had it for years and it is highly unlikely it will get any bigger. I can feel where it is now that he showed me and the hole is the size of a very small pea so there is no chance of any intestines being constricted or anything like that. So I am just going to monitor it for a while and see what happens. Least I can put off surgery for a while

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## zaggahamma

So now the odds are in your favor. Glad you don't need the surgery and hope you never do.

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## Kale

> So now the odds are in your favor. Glad you don't need the surgery and hope you never do.


Thanks man, me too !!! It really ruined my day yesterday I can tell you !

----------


## Mobligator

> Now you're quoting Meatloaf  
> 
> No kidding....just got off the phone with the nurse...she doesn't know for sure where my samples are going...could stay at hospital, could even be done at the doc's office....doc won't be back til tommorrow...that's the soonest I'll know anything more than i do now


jpkman,

Your samples will be sent to a Pathology Lab and tested for prostate cancer. However if the hospital has their own lab and pathologist they should be done in house and the results should be back in a day or two, depending on how busy the pathologist is. If they come back negative, _which I'm sure they will,_ all your worries are over and you can relax those nerves, which must be quite edgy by now. It's a nerve racking and scary thing, esp the waiting.

Just FYI, or for anyone else who might want to know, if a sample is positive, the pathologist will assign a "gleason score" to each sample that is positive. The gleason score indicates how agressive the cancer is and will be given consideration as to the best way to treat the cancer. The average gleason score is ususally 2-6, a score of 7 is fast growing and 8-10 is very fast. Mine was a 6. If anyone wants to get good information on prostate cancer and illlustrations describing the different procedures and treatments, go to: www.rcog.com. 
This is the clinic in Atlanta where I was treated. They just came out with a new booklet, "Understanding Prostate Cancer" and sent me four of them to give to anyone who is considering having treatment for PCa. One thing they emphasize at RCOG is that the type of treatment you choose should be a personal choice based on your own research of all of the different treatments available and in most cases you only have the one chance. They also say it would be a big mistake to trust your doctor to tell you how to be treated because,* "most docs, but not all who treat PCa, urologists and radiation oncologists, will recommend whatever treatment they themselves do".* At RCOG they don't do this! They want you to make up your own mind after you have thoroughly studied all of the available treatments.
_Added these comments just in case anyone knows of someone who might have been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer._

----------


## Kale

Thanks dude, and after what I learned the other day if I did have prostate cancer I think I would choose the total resection route rather than radiation. The other thing was that the Dr said the the majority of these cancers are slow growing and by that I mean years. Whats your view on that ?

----------


## zaggahamma

thanks gator...yep, fingers/toes still crossed...hope all is well

----------


## Ufa

jpkman You don't have to cross you fingers. They tested for cancer when you were out. They were listening to ronk & roll music & doing the cancer test. When they could not find cancer they put you back together and mailed off sample for additional testing. You are home free.

I think we should acknowledge Kale as the geru. He told us exactily what
was happening. He's got a crystal ball. Take care buddy. Don't evem worry.
They are just retesting what they tested while you were out.

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## zaggahamma

> jpkman You don't have to cross you fingers. They tested for cancer when you were out. They were listening to ronk & roll music & doing the cancer test. When they could not find cancer they put you back together and mailed off sample for additional testing. You are home free.
> 
> I think we should acknowledge Kale as the geru. He told us exactily what
> was happening. He's got a crystal ball. Take care buddy. Don't evem worry.
> They are just retesting what they tested while you were out.


thanks again my friend...i will feel a lot better when I stop peing tooty frooty and here the definate 'negative" word...preciate the confidence

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## zaggahamma

*NEGATIVE*!!! :7up:  
STOKED!

Only calcification...normal bph not even needed to be treated  :7up:  

1,000,000 *Thanks* to all who helped me with this

J

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## Ufa

Injection time.

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## Kale

Awsome, now hit that juice boy !!!!!

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## Mobligator

> Thanks dude, and after what I learned the other day if I did have prostate cancer I think I would choose the total resection route rather than radiation. The other thing was that the Dr said the the majority of these cancers are slow growing and by that I mean years. Whats your view on that ?


Your Doc was correct by saying the majority of prostate cancers are slow growing but I would never consider the "wait and see" approach. The rate of growth is determined by the two diagnostic tests I mentioned previously; the PSA and the Gleason Score. The Gleason Score is done by a pathologist by looking at the cancer cells under a microscope and he will then assign a number to each positive specimen tested. If your score is between 2 & 4 you can conclude you have a less aggressive or slower growing cancer but if your score is 6 its a little faster growing and time to do something about it. If its 7 its a fast growing cancer and 8 is very fast or aggressive. But pathologists aren't perfect either and two different pathologists might give you two different readings. Also, a slow growing cancer can become a fast growing cancer, especially if you have a high testosterone level. Cancer loves testosterone like a fat lady loves chocolate eclair. Just munches it right up.

The best cure rates in the world for Radical Prostatectomy are at Johns Hopkins with the surgery being performed by Dr. Walsh, the man who invented the nerve sparing process and his overall cure rate is *80* percent. If some other surgeon does the surgery the cure rate will not be as high and many surgeons don't even keep tract of their patients and/or records on all of them to know their personal cure rate. If a doctor can't tell you what his cure rate is, "Walk Away" and find one who can tell you. 

Radical Prostatectomy is a very serious and extremely invasive operation. It only takes one little slip of the knife and you can have serious post operative side effects to put it mildly, and quite possibly a limp weenie for the rest of your life. The total resection route is only as good as the doctor doing it! 
I had absolutely no side effects from the radiation. At RCOG I had the same procedure done that Rudy Giuliani had done in New York at Mount Sinai Medical Center but at RCOG they call their procedure, "ProstRcision". The cure rate at RCOG is the best in the world. Note I didn't say just in the U.S. Below are their 10 year cure rates for *ALL* of over 10,000 patients:
*Pretreatement PSa Groups* *Cure Rates*
4.0 or less = 98 % 
4.1 -10.0 = 90 %
10.1 - 20.0 = 75 %
More than 20.0 = 54 %
Overall = 87 %
The higher the PSA at time of treatment, the more likely the cancer has spread outside of the prostate capsule, thus the reason the percentages goes down once it's spread. The same thing holds true for Radical Prostatectomy, if one microscopic cancer cell has escaped the prostate capsule, _"removing the prostate wil not cure you."_ 
The cure rates for RCOG have been published in the Journal of Urology numerous times and using a PSA nadir cutpoint of 0.2 they have the best rates in the world. Johns Hopkins uses the Astro definition of cure with the cutpoint of 0.5 but if they used the 0.2 cutpoint their cure rates would be only 68 % for the past 15 years. The cure rate for Cryosurgery using the Astro definition of 0.5 is 73 % but would only be around 50 % if using the 0.2.
If a man has his prostate removed his PSA ought to be zero. The only thing that produces PSA is the prostate and prostate cancer cells. The reason they use the nadir of 0.2 is the machines that read the PSA are not accurate under 0.2 so they consider this as good as zero. I've had readings as low as < 0.008 but my last reading was 0.03. If it ever goes above 0.2 I'm in trouble. Hopefully none of you will ever have to worry about any of this but statistics show that 1 in 5 men will get PCa. Doc Critz at RCOG claims the older you get the more likely you'll get PCa, or in other words, if you are 70 y/o your chances are 70 % of getting it and at 80 y/o, 80 % chance, etc. I think he's right about this too. Keep a close watch on that PSA if you're taking HRT/TRT. I took it for 13 years and one day my PSA jumped thru the roof, 12.7.  :No No:

----------


## zaggahamma

Excellent post as always MG....I'm glad this thread was educational to all and hope you are doing well.
Your last sentence is quite alarming...after 13 years out of the blue....your PSA was SO high. How often had you been checking?

----------


## Mighty Joe

Kale, JP, MG,

Is it possible than to have a bit of an elavated PSA (Still < 4.0) and only have BPH?

----------


## zaggahamma

> Kale, JP, MG,
> 
> Is it possible than to have a bit of an elavated PSA (Still < 4.0) and only have BPH?


Hey Joe....well in my case, I never been as high as 1.0...0.4 was the highest and he said i have bph...but normal? i guess the prostate is supposed to get bigger and in my case it's not even enough to treat? So I'll bump for Kale and mobli or whoever else knows more.

----------


## Kale

> Kale, JP, MG,
> 
> Is it possible than to have a bit of an elavated PSA (Still < 4.0) and only have BPH?


Joe the range is 0.0 to 4.0 mine is usualluy around 3.7 or 3.8, I will ask the Dr later in the week, I have just had another round of blood tests done and I am waiting fro the results. MG will know for sure

----------


## Mighty Joe

> Joe the range is 0.0 to 4.0 mine is usualluy around 3.7 or 3.8, I will ask the Dr later in the week, I have just had another round of blood tests done and I am waiting fro the results. MG will know for sure


OK, so if I've read this stuff correctly: It seems that the Docs are looking for a PSA score that is ramping upwards from the last score which suggests that there may be a problem. I'm I correct on that?

OH yeah, and Kale.....Is that the same gal as before in the new Avatar? If so, I gotta plan a trip our your way! :LOL:

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## Kale

> OK, so if I've read this stuff correctly: It seems that the Docs are looking for a PSA score that is ramping upwards from the last score which suggests that there may be a problem. I'm I correct on that?
> 
> OH yeah, and Kale.....Is that the same gal as before in the new Avatar? If so, I gotta plan a trip our your way!


Yes the ramping is what they look for as one of the major signs. And yes thats my GF. I am meeting a couple of other members in Bangkok in November. You should join us !!!

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## Mobligator

> Yes the ramping is what they look for as one of the major signs. And yes thats my GF. I am meeting a couple of other members in Bangkok in November. You should join us !!!


* Now I see why you're taking testosterone!!!*  :Wink/Grin:

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## Kale

> * Now I see why you're taking testosterone!!!*


Yeah and even with the Test and 400 Cialis a day its hard to keep up with  :LOL:

----------


## Mobligator

> Kale, JP, MG,
> 
> Is it possible than to have a bit of an elavated PSA (Still < 4.0) and only have BPH?


 I'm going to try answering two questions here, one for jpjman and for Mighty Joe. 

Yes your PSA can go way up without having cancer. BPH will raise it quite a bit and for men over 50 a PSA of 5.0 is considered within the ballpark. In my case I was plagued by prostate infections for approximately 15 years prior to having cancer. One time my PSA shot up to 10.0 with a prostate infection and scared the crap out of me. I've been going to the VA clinics for the last 7-8 yrs and they checked all of my blood work every six months. (didn't cost me anything) When my PSA would go up to around 6 or 7, they'd Rx me some antibiotics, Septra or Bactrim, (both the same thing just different manufacturers) Cipro will also work. 

One thing that sets off alarm bells with the PSA is, if it _"doubles"_ from one test to the next. e.g. if it's 1.5 and six months later it's 3.0 they'll want to run more tests. At that point I'd suggest to the doc to do a "free PSA" test. The free PSA can with some reliability distinguish between a benign problem or a maglignant one and save the trouble of having a biopsy.

----------


## Kale

OK guys I need your help, now its my turn to be nervous. I got my PSA test yesterday and its 5.0. Now the reason I am nervous is because it was 3.8 at the end of 2006. I went back through my blood tests and in 2004 it was 2.4. The Dr said its probably because I am just comming off a really heavy cycle, my test levels are still extremmly high at 4300 when the top of the range is 827. What do you guys think ? The Dr says wait for six months and do another test then but I am not so sure.

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## zaggahamma

shit bro...i thought we were out of the water....what r u thinking of doing....doc's telling you no hormones for 6 mos and then retest? what r u thinking, that you don't want to wait 6 months? that's the highest test level i've ever seen...i'll be here, bud
gator should be checkin in..it's the weekend

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## Ufa

Hope your Doc is right. You are the Professor here. Considering you
PSA hasn't gone up only 1.2 points and the heavy test level.. Might 
be time for a digital rectal exam. You know the symptoms. I assume
you don't have any. Your Doc sounds like he knows his stuff. I would
not stress out. However, I would not wait 6 months either. Hope
things work out.

----------


## Mighty Joe

> OK guys I need your help, now its my turn to be nervous. I got my PSA test yesterday and its 5.0. Now the reason I am nervous is because it was 3.8 at the end of 2006. I went back through my blood tests and in 2004 it was 2.4. The Dr said its probably because I am just comming off a really heavy cycle, my test levels are still extremmly high at 4300 when the top of the range is 827. What do you guys think ? The Dr says wait for six months and do another test then but I am not so sure.


Bro, 
First off, remember we are your support staff here!!!! 
Secondly, I agree with the Doc! I would come off the gear including TRT and run the DRE/PSA again in 30 days, 60 days & 90 days instead of 6 months! 
Your score will move in some direction: either up or down. So lets not panic here. Especially since we already know you have a BPH issue and we also know that the higher Test levels can certainly contribute to that. You are way over the normal testosterone 827 range. 

Maybe run the above test schedule by the Doc and see what he thinks & keep us posted. You'll be fine bro! 

MJ

----------


## Kale

Thanks for the support guys, its nice you have you guys around for support, I appreciate that a lot. I think it will be a bit harsh to drop the HRT altogether so I am going yo go down to 50mg a week and give the test levels a chace to drop back to normal. I will then get another test in 30 days and see what happens from there. If its still going up I will drop the Test altogether, hopfully the HGH will maintain my mass, but I am no looking forward to the lost of sex drive. I will probably try some kind of PCT as well.

----------


## Kale

> Hope your Doc is right. You are the Professor here. Considering you
> PSA hasn't gone up only 1.2 points and the heavy test level.. Might 
> be time for a digital rectal exam. You know the symptoms. I assume
> you don't have any. Your Doc sounds like he knows his stuff. I would
> not stress out. However, I would not wait 6 months either. Hope
> things work out.


I had a digital exam and an ultra sound only last week and they were all fine. I have done a bit of research this morning and I am a bit less worried than when I first posted. Lets see what happens from here.

----------


## zaggahamma

> Thanks for the support guys, its nice you have you guys around for support, I appreciate that a lot. I think it will be a bit harsh to drop the HRT altogether so I am going yo go down to 50mg a week and give the test levels a chace to drop back to normal. I will then get another test in 30 days and see what happens from there. If its still going up I will drop the Test altogether, hopfully the HGH will maintain my mass, but I am no looking forward to the lost of sex drive. I will probably try some kind of PCT as well.


I forgot you were on gh too kale...is that not of concern as far as prostate health..don't mean to give something for worry...but i'd rather you worry and be safe...i'll check it out more too bro...

----------


## Ufa

> I had a digital exam and an ultra sound only last week and they were all fine. I have done a bit of research this morning and I am a bit less worried than when I first posted. Lets see what happens from here.


Your gonna be fine.

----------


## Kale

> Your gonna be fine.


Thanks mate, I sure hope so, its has me a bit rattled at the moment I can tell you. Thank God for Google. Man there is a lot of research about all of this. Have a read of this 

Testosterone Therapy in Men - Sexual Desire & Performance
John E. Morley, M.B., B.Ch.
Symposium Article

Clinical and epidemiologic studies, along with basic scientific research, have shown a trend toward androgen deficiency in aging males. The focus of the clinical investigations described here is to determine whether testosterone deficiency is a physiologic cause of the aging process and whether testosterone replacement might prevent or ameliorate a decline in quality of life associated with age-related decline in physical and psychological functioning. 

The physiologic aspects of aging are presented in the myth of Tithonus, the lover of Aurora, goddess of dawn. Aurora loved Tithonus so much that she asked her father, Zeus, to grant him eternal life. Unfortunately she forgot to request eternal youth for her lover, who began to experience the failure of his libido at approximately age 50 years and at age 60 to 70 years was somewhat impotent. By the age of 80 years, Tithonus had lost much of his muscle strength, and by the time he turned 90, he walked around stooped, because his bone was disappearing and he had some kyphosis.

By the time he reached 100 years, he had developed some age-related cognitive dysfunction, which was shown in the myth by the fact that he babbled incessantly. At this stage, love's sweet bloom had wilted, and Aurora just wanted to be rid of him. But Tithonus was immortal. Since she could not make him disappear, Aurora changed him into a cicada instead. Thus, the chirping of a cicada is actually the incessant babbling of a senile old man.

Many of the changes cited in this myth are associated with declining testosterone production. They include age-related disturbances in memory, muscle mass, and strength. Clearly, loss of libido and impotence are testosterone effects, and osteopenia may be another. There is evidence to suggest that disturbances in balance and declines in maximal oxygen uptake capacity (VO2max) also relate to declines in testosterone levels , although these effects have been understudied. Changes in food intake may also be effects of testosterone loss.

Today scientists are looking for hormonal substances that will rejuvenate human beings and allow them to live longer. Can this be done with testosterone? Probably not, but the full range of its potential may be under appreciated. Twenty years of clinical experience and current research findings provide a convincing argument that testosterone replacement has a role to play in improving the quality of life in older men.

EVIDENCE FOR AN AGE-RELATED DECLINE IN TESTOSTERONE
One of the early studies that has helped to define an age-related decrease in testosterone levels was done in healthy men aged 20-45 years compared with those aged 50 to 70 years. Levels of bioavailable testosterone were variable in the group of young individuals, who all were in robust health, with no levels measuring below 70 ng/dL. When these findings were compared with measurements in healthy men aged 50 to 70 years who had no known disease or medications, no longer were there any men with very high bioavailable testosterone levels, and approximately half of the group had levels below those of the younger individuals.

Importantly, luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were not elevated in the older populations. Additional confirmation came from an Australian study by Wishart and colleagues. Using a free androgen index, these investigators reported a decline in testosterone after age 31 years that continued each decade.

Longitudinal Study 
The current understanding is that declines in free and bioavailable testosterone levels are related to a failure of the gonadotropin-releasing hormone pulse generator; whether it is pulse frequency or some other cause at that level is unknown. There also appears to be a malfunction at the pituitary level.

CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS OF TESTOSTERONE DEFICIENCY
Currently, the key questions involve whether declining testosterone levels as a function of age are clinically relevant and whether testosterone replacement may be beneficial in some older individuals. On both issues, the data are beginning to say "yes." 

Libido and Sexual Functioning
In As You Like It, William Shakespeare described a 60-year-old in "lean and slipped pantaloon" and with a "big, manly voice, turning again towards childish treble pipes." An endocrinologist seeing a 30-year-old man who looked and spoke like that would diagnose "hypogonadism." This illustrates the point that testosterone deficiency is relatively easy to diagnose in the young but more difficult to define in the 70- or 80-year-old.

Studies have provided evidence of a strong correlation between bioavailable testosterone and a variety of sexual behaviors. Testosterone levels correlate more strongly with libido effects than with erections. These effects were seen in a retrospective study in which a two-year follow-up was conducted of individuals (both testosterone-treated subjects and untreated controls) who presented initially with low levels of bioavailable testosterone. Libido increased in these subjects, which is not surprising.

Morales et. al., reported similar findings using testosterone enanthate or testosterone undecanoate. That double-blind trial showed a 61% increase in sexual interest and performance in treated individuals. A number of other studies have shown similar results over time.

Our clinical experience has suggested that men treated with sildenafil (Viagra) do not obtain an adequate erection if their testosterone level is low, but will respond to testosterone treatment. Testosterone seems to be required for the last stage of the erection, possibly because of the hormone's effect on nitric oxide synthase (unpublished data).

Memory Effects
One recent study showed strong relationships between bioavailable testosterone and performance on a number of different memory tests. Similar results have been published by Janowsky and colleagues and by Herbst et. al., in abstract form.

Strength and Muscle Functioning
Furthermore, both bioavailable and total testosterone levels correlated extremely well with functional status. 

Body Fat
From these findings, it appears that testosterone and SHBG levels together are the major predictors of skeletal mass. However, a relationship with IGF-1 and physical activity is not ruled out . Furthermore, two studies have demonstrated that testosterone administration results in an improvement in upper grip strength. Testosterone deficiency will cause a decline in muscle mass, as well as sarcopenia, and frailty, with numerous interactions between these effects.

Bone Density
It should be recognized also that mortality from hip fractures is higher in men with low testosterone . Deficiency is associated with minimal trauma hip fracture. In addition, there are very positive data from Tenover and colleagues showing an association of testosterone with lumbar spine density.

SAFETY ISSUES IN TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT
In a study of replacement therapy for 1 year, several tests were performed routinely, including prostate-specific antigen determination, liver function tests, and triglyceride levels. Blood pressure, fructosamine, and osteocalcin levels did not change over the course.

Hematopoiesis
Studies have shown that testosterone supplementation increases hematocrit approximately 1%. As they age, men, but not women, have a decline in hemoglobin of 1 to 2 g/dL, most likely related to the decline in testosterone. Replacement dosages can lead to very high hematocrit in some individuals, however, and this must be monitored every four to six months.

*Prostate Cancer
There is no clinical evidence that the risk of either prostate cancer or benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) increases with testosterone replacement. In the study by Hajjar et. al., both BPH and prostate cancer tended to decline, but not to a statistically significant degree. A larger study did show similar results, with a significant decline in BPH and prostate cancer (and also angina).* 

Cardiovascular Risk
The lower the level of free testosterone in an individual, the more likely he is to have coronary artery disease. In the 1940's, testosterone was used to treat angina. The results from a double-blind study were reported by Jaffe. This investigator showed that testosterone improves exercise-induced ST depression. There are also data showing that testosterone will relax the coronary arteries by liberating nitric oxide, an effect very similar to that of estrogen.

A Chinese study by Wu and Weng reported on 62 older men treated for ten weeks with testosterone undecanoate. Angina was relieved in 77% of subjects, there were positive lipid studies, and data suggested improvement in myocardial ischemia. Changes in lipids with testosterone replacement are quite variable; however, clinical evidence shows only no change or a slightly positive change.

SCREENING AND TESTING FOR TESTOSTERONE DEFICIENCY IN CLINICAL PRACTICE
Some years ago a screening questionnaire was developed to help diagnose testosterone deficiency. Among other things, it identified candidates for testosterone testing. The questionnaire consisted of the following 10 items:

1. Do you have a decrease in libido or sex drive?
2. Do you have a lack of energy?
3. Do you have a decrease in strength or endurance?
4. Have you lost weight?
5. Have you noticed a decreased enjoyment of life?
6. Are you sad or grumpy?
7. Are your erections less strong?
8. Have you noted a recent deterioration in your ability to play sports?
9. Are you falling asleep after dinner?
10. Has there been any recent deterioration in your work performance?

The questionnaire was tested on 310 Canadian physicians (the same sample mentioned earlier) and was shown to have a high degree of sensitivity and specificity-one equivalent to that of doing stress testing for myocardial ischemia risk. Risk-factor analysis showed a positive correlation between results and all questions, with the exception of those regarding decreased strength and endurance. However, such decreases have been objectively shown to be symptoms of testosterone deficiency, even though they were not recognized in this population. A positive score on the questionnaire is an affirmative answer to question one or seven or any three others.

Currently, Saint Louis University and the University of Adelaide are involved in a 12-month double-blind study of testosterone undecanoate, 80 mg twice a day, vs. oleic acid. A dose-response method is being employed, so subjects will build up to the 80-mg dose depending on their testosterone levels. Men older than 60 years who have a free testosterone index below the normal range for young adults will be enrolled. The hypothesis is that replacement dosage will decrease leptin and increase IGF-1, bone density, muscle mass, and strength. Multiple measures of strength will be used, involving both upper and lower extremities, with the additional hypothesis that upper extremity strength will be improved to a greater degree than lower extremity strength. A battery of tests will measure improvement in cognitive function, mood, dysphoria, and quality of life. A year's therapy may be too short to achieve positive results in all of these areas.

CONCLUSION
Testosterone replacement, given at the time of male andropause , or "viropause," has shown many positive results. Data show increases in strength, memory, hematocrit, and libido. In addition to the research data, clinical experience has shown that testosterone in replacement dosage clearly improves quality of life and function in middle-aged and older men.

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## Mobligator

> OK guys I need your help, now its my turn to be nervous. I got my PSA test yesterday and its 5.0. Now the reason I am nervous is because it was 3.8 at the end of 2006. I went back through my blood tests and in 2004 it was 2.4. The Dr said its probably because I am just comming off a really heavy cycle, my test levels are still extremmly high at 4300 when the top of the range is 827. What do you guys think ? The Dr says wait for six months and do another test then but I am not so sure.


Kale,
Now you're getting in my area of expertise. Not that I'm a MD or anything but I've had prostate cancer and a long history of prostate infections with high PSA's. Here's the latest break points for PSA levels for men of different ages:

Table 1 - Suggested upper limits of PSA for different age groups ² 

Age (years) Serum PSA (ng/ml) 
40 - 49 = 2.0
50 - 59 = 3.0
60 - 69 = 4.0
70 - 79 = 5.5.

My PSA ran from a low of 3.9 to a high of 9.4 from the years 1993 to 2001, at which time I was diagnosed with PCa. Let me se if I can make a chart that will print out on this page to illustrate the fluctuations. Hope it works!

11/93 = 4.1
8/94 = 9.4 (infection)
11/94 = 6.92
11-4-94 biospy, neg.
2/95 = 6.64
5/95 = 6.21
2/96 = 3.9 (took antibiotics)
2/97 = 4.12
6/02 = 4.93
8/02 = 5.6
10/02 = 4.3
9/01 = 5.2
12/01 = 12.7 (cancer)
12/26/01 = 9.3 (took antibiotics)

A couple points to remember: _A digital exam will raise your PSA significantly; having sex within 48 hours of taking the PSA test will raise it; strenuous physical exercise like weight lifting will raise it._  
I don't know for sure what affect testosterone will have on a normal man who does not have cancer but 4300 is clear thru the roof. If you want to get a normal result I would get my testosterone level down to normal just in case, i.e. 500-600. Most importantly, is your doc a Urologist? If he isn't then you should see one and if it were me I'd find a younger Uro, someone who is up on all the new developments. Don't mess with just some General Practitioner or Endo, it's not their specialty. Your PSA went up 1.2 which is quite a jump but it could have come from any of the things I mentioned,_ esp an infection._ Have them check you for prostate infection. The cause is still unknown but I know when I first got one I was having a lot of sex with different women and the doc first thought I had the clap. Penicillin won't cure prostatits. It takes Septra, Bactrim or Cipro. The prostate is like a sponge and once you get an infection it's extremely hard to get rid of it all completely.
By all means get a second PSA once you get your test levels down to normal and have it done by a Uro. Don't let him do a digital first tho. Draw the blood first. Stay off caffeine before the test and take some Ibuprofen a few day before. Take the advice of a good Uro regardless of your next test results.

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## Kale

> Kale,
> Now you're getting in my area of expertise. Not that I'm a MD or anything but I've had prostate cancer and a long history of prostate infections with high PSA's. Here's the latest break points for PSA levels for men of different ages:
> 
> Table 1 - Suggested upper limits of PSA for different age groups ² 
> 
> Age (years) Serum PSA (ng/ml) 
> 40 - 49 = 2.0
> 50 - 59 = 3.0
> 60 - 69 = 4.0
> ...


Mate thanks for this info. I had the blood test done about 48 hours after a digital exam and an unltra sound. Does jerking off count as sex because I probably did that a few times between the exam and the blood test as well. The test was done by a Urologist, the blood tests were done by my GP who knows all about my steroid history. So does the Urologist as my Dr found one who would agree to treat me without a lecture. 

So if by some chance it is Prostate Cancer, what would you do. If I lose the ability to have sex I would consider my life to be effectively over, it is hugely important to me so I need to understand what the risks of doing nothing are as well.

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## Ufa

I think the GH you are taking is a healer. Personally it has helped me
through many a different sickness or injury. At our age you can notice
the healing effects very quickly. Certainly a lot faster than a 20 year 
old with nothing to heal.

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## Mobligator

> Mate thanks for this info. I had the blood test done about 48 hours after a digital exam and an unltra sound. Does jerking off count as sex because I probably did that a few times between the exam and the blood test as well. The test was done by a Urologist, the blood tests were done by my GP who knows all about my steroid history. So does the Urologist as my Dr found one who would agree to treat me without a lecture. 
> 
> So if by some chance it is Prostate Cancer, what would you do. If I lose the ability to have sex I would consider my life to be effectively over, it is hugely important to me so I need to understand what the risks of doing nothing are as well.


 Kale, 

*You bet your sweet ass jerking off counts!* It's the ejaculation that raises the PSA. Usually the effects only last 24-48 hrs depending on the age of the man but there have been cases where ejaculation kept the PSA raised for 7 days. That digital exam could have raised it too. 

Very slim chance it's PCa! With the amount of T. in your blood stream and it was cancer, your PSA would have shot up to the moon. My Oncologist in Atlanta has made this statement in hundreds of lectures over the years, i.e. "one cancer cell can produce 10 times more PSA than a normal prostate cell. 
If by some "slim" chance you would have cancer, *NO your sex life will not be over.* You can take that to the bank! I'll be 73 in Sept and mine isn't over and I had low testosterone since 1988. 

The risks of doing nothing are eventually and ultimately death. Don't even consider taking such a path! Here are some famous people who had prostate cancer and are living normal lives today. Rudy Giuliani, Robert De Niro, Joe Torre, Arnold Palmer, Harry Belafonte, Bob Dole (the Viagra Man), Colin Powel, John Kerry (John Kerry's prostate cancer was detected through a normal PSA test. It was significantly higher than the last PSA test, but still with the normal range. He was diagnosed in 2002 and has made a full recovery.)

I know well the fear and anxiety of waiting and not knowing for sure and also the devastation that follows if one is diagnosed as positive for PCa. I thought my world had collapsed on top of me. But then I hit the books and searched everything I could find on the internet. But you aren't to that point yet and if you do some of the things I mentioned previously, your PSA is going to come down. Take a sabbatical from all sex for a few days prior to the test, yeh, I know thats going to be a tough one, esp when your'e full of hormones and with that lovely Thai girl  :0beatoff:   :No No:  Don't let them stick their dirty finger up your arse either, not before the test, No heavy lifting for a few days prior, (including your dick) _I knew what your were going to say._  :Wink/Grin:  
No alcohol or caffeine for a couple days, and take some Ibuprofen for a few days before. If you've had any kind of burning sensation when urinating it wouldn't hurt to take some cipro since thats one of the symptoms of infection but the Uro should check you for that as standard practice. Good luck and don't worry. You'll be alright. I might have forgotten something but if I think of anything else I'll post an addendum.

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## Mighty Joe

Is this a great forum or what!
I'm so glad you guys are here!!!!!

MJ

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## zaggahamma

Go gator...that makes sense about the psa would have been higher with that big a$s test level.....good news...
kale...put the snake back in the pin for bit

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## Kale

Moblicator

Thanks mate I am so greatfull you are around right now. Jesus I didnt know you were 73 !!! Man thats awsome.. so tell me about the sex thing. Both my father in law and my step father both had radiation for PC and they both have incontinance problems and neither of them can have sex any more. 

I know what you mean by fear and anxitey. My young daughter died from a Brain Tumor when she was just three and a half. We fought that for sixteen months until she finally passed away, the rollercoaster ride of surgery, chemo, datiation and MRI's is something I never want to have to go through again.

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## Mobligator

> Moblicator
> 
> Thanks mate I am so greatfull you are around right now. Jesus I didnt know you were 73 !!! Man thats awsome.. so tell me about the sex thing. Both my father in law and my step father both had radiation for PC and they both have incontinance problems and neither of them can have sex any more. 
> 
> I know what you mean by fear and anxitey. My young daughter died from a Brain Tumor when she was just three and a half. We fought that for sixteen months until she finally passed away, the rollercoaster ride of surgery, chemo, datiation and MRI's is something I never want to have to go through again.


I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your daughter. I've been told there is no pain or grief like that of losing one of your children, or put another way, to out live your children. I pray I don't have to experience that. I've been very busy this past week and wk end doing things with my 8 y/o great-grand daughter while she is still out of school. 
Yea, I'm closing in on 73 but I still work out with weights at the gym 2-3 times a week. Ten years ago when I was only a young thing, (62) I was still able to bench press close to 300 but I tore my rotator cuff one day after working up to 275 and then doing a down set with 250 for 5-6 reps and on about the 3rd rep it went out on me. Had it fixed but that ended my bench pressing. Strangely enough tho, I can still do military presses without any difficulty. BTW, I was still on TRT & a few other types of gear occasionally.

Sorry to hear about your father-in-law and step fathers problems. I've heard many of those horror stories but all I can say there is, there is radiation treatment and there is better radiation treatment. I know it has improved probably over 100 % in the last 15 years and even where I had my treatment (in 2002), it has gotten much better since 2004. It kinda makes me feel cheated but I can honestly say I have never had any type of complications from my radiation treatments. At RCOG, patients don't have any complications of incontinence from treatment. Men 50 or younger with normal erection function or mild ED, 94 % of them keep their sexual function. I started having some problems maintaining an erection at age 58 and subsequently went on TRT, so now I'm still having some of the same problems that I had 14-15 yrs ago but not from the radiation. If I sneak in a few doses of Andro Gel  :No No:  , the morning wood starts to appear again. However without staying on T, for extended periods my libido is nil. "My get up and go, got up and went"! I could take Viagra, Levitra, or Go-See-Alice (Cialis) but my wife is no longer interested in 4 or 5 hrs of sex. :0piss:  We use to call them piss hard-ons. "Go take a piss , it'll go away", she said.
Like you mentioned theres a whole lot of info in Google but if you want to check out the RCOG site just go to their home page; www.rcog.com -and you can get most of the information on *all* of the various treatments available, not just theirs.
On the home page scroll down & on the left side, click on, "Understanding Prostate Cancer", & "Radical Prostatectomy and Prostrcision", & Complications of Prostricision". There's a wealth of info on their site, cure rates of different treatments, Cryo, Surgery, various types of radiation,etc. 
My treatment consisted of first having radiaoactive seed implants followed by 7 weeks of external conformal beam radiation, a.k.a. accelerator irradiation using IMRT, Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy. This type of treatment didn't exist 10 years ago. The processes they used then are antiquated now.They can aim the beam right at the prostate without doing harm to other organs or the outer parts of your body. On the Q. & A. , A Conversation with Dr Critz page, put < IMRT > in the Keyword Search and it will explain the process and show you a picture of how it works. 

This info is just for you as a place to start in case you wish to do any research but I'm 99.9 % certain you won't need it and I don't want you to be worrying yourself over that PSA. It'll go down, hopefully below 4 on your next test. 

*Side Bar:* I knew I'd fogotten something. There is one little side affect but it will be a side affect no matter what treatment a man has for prostate cancer. You won't have any ejaculate when you have orgasm. The prostate furnishes most of the seminal fluid in the ejaculate and once the cells in the prostate are killed along with the cancer or once the prostate is removed or frozen, you will be shooting blanks. But you still have an orgasm. Sorry. That is one thing I sort of miss.  :Bukkake:

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## Kale

Man that is some response. I really appreciate you putting your time into this. You have no idea how much better you have made me feel !!! My daughter was everything to me, it was 8 years ago now but it just feels like yesterday and there isnt an hour goes by that I still dont think of her.

I must admit both my father and father in law were treated 8 or 9 years ago so I guess things have improved a lot since then which makes me feel a lot better. 

I know about the shooting blanks thing and that really freaks me out too believe it or not. I just love watching the chics run for cover when I pull out and try and spray them with it  :LOL:  Ah well you cant have everything I guess. Must be weird, cumming and not shooting anything though.

I am still confused as to why they think Test is the cause of all of this when older mens Test levels are very low to zero and thats when the BPH and the PC thing starts !!

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## zaggahamma

Kale...I just had to say that I have four daughters and I told them of you and we believe in heaven and you and your daughter are loved immensely.

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## Kale

> Kale...I just had to say that I have four daughters and I told them of you and we believe in heaven and you and your daughter are loved immensely.


Mate I dont know what to say. I appreciate that very much !!

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## zaggahamma

kale...she is SO BEAUTIFUL.

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## Mobligator

> Mate I dont know what to say. I appreciate that very much !! Here is a link to what happened if you are interested www.jazzywren.com


Kale,

I just left the site you put up for Jazmin. She was such a beautiful girl. I might be 8 years late but I wanted to sign the guest book anyway. I was trying to figure out who she resembled, you or your wife but I think maybe she looked a little like both of you. Also, I have to agree with jpkman, Jazzy is definitely in heaven and with with Jesus. This I truly believe! I was lost for words after viewing your site for Jazmin but the first thought that came to my mind was from (Mark 10: 14-16.), so I quoted it in your guest book.

In regards to: < _I am still confused as to why they think Test is the cause of all of this when older mens Test levels are very low to zero and thats when the BPH and the PC thing starts_ !!> I think you explained that very well yourself in a previous post. You gave the hypothesis that estrogen was probably the culprit instead of DHT. I've always felt the same as you, how could it be the testosterone /DHT? Perhaps they really don't know. 
You'll be alright when you get that 4300 down to about 800. Or 600!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

Ya know, it's been my experience that "more is not better" when it comes to testosterone. I know I'll get a load of flak on this but there really is scientific evidence to support my side on this. To make a long story short, _androgen receptors can become desensitized when overloaded with androgens and if it continues over a long period they will shut down._ And that is not good! The body has it's way of maintaining it's homeostasis and it works that way with our hormones too. From my own personal experience I can guarantee you, you'll feel just as good with a "high normal" test level as you will with over 1000. I jacked mine up to 1100 once and I couldn't tell any difference at all. Take care of your body and try to stay within the parameters. Life is too short. Cheers  :Cheers:

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## Kale

> Kale,
> 
> I just left the site you put up for Jazmin. She was such a beautiful girl. I might be 8 years late but I wanted to sign the guest book anyway. I was trying to figure out who she resembled, you or your wife but I think maybe she looked a little like both of you. Also, I have to agree with jpkman, Jazzy is definitely in heaven and with with Jesus. This I truly believe! I was lost for words after viewing your site for Jazmin but the first thought that came to my mind was from (Mark 10: 14-16.), so I quoted it in your guest book.
> 
> In regards to: < _I am still confused as to why they think Test is the cause of all of this when older mens Test levels are very low to zero and thats when the BPH and the PC thing starts_ !!> I think you explained that very well yourself in a previous post. You gave the hypothesis that estrogen was probably the culprit instead of DHT. I've always felt the same as you, how could it be the testosterone /DHT? Perhaps they really don't know. 
> You'll be alright when you get that 4300 down to about 800. Or 600!  
> 
> Ya know, it's been my experience that "more is not better" when it comes to testosterone. I know I'll get a load of flak on this but there really is scientific evidence to support my side on this. To make a long story short, _androgen receptors can become desensitized when overloaded with androgens and if it continues over a long period they will shut down._ And that is not good! The body has it's way of maintaining it's homeostasis and it works that way with our hormones too. From my own personal experience I can guarantee you, you'll feel just as good with a "high normal" test level as you will with over 1000. I jacked mine up to 1100 once and I couldn't tell any difference at all. Take care of your body and try to stay within the parameters. Life is too short. Cheers


Thanks Mate, appreciate the guest book entry, that was really nice of you. I still gets lots of hits to the site. It is my memorial to her 

The Estrogen is definitly under control I tale a-dex everyday and my test showed it in the low to normal range. I am definitly going to get the Test level down. I am going to shoot 60mg Test E every wednesday from now on so that should tale me into the range pretty much. I will stay there for a year or so now and continue the HGH. That stuff is amazing, I measured my bf yesterday and I am down to 12% from 16% when I started just 8 weeks ago.

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## zaggahamma

> Thanks Mate, appreciate the guest book entry, that was really nice of you. I still gets lots of hits to the site. It is my memorial to her 
> 
> The Estrogen is definitly under control I tale a-dex everyday and my test showed it in the low to normal range. I am definitly going to get the Test level down. I am going to shoot 60mg Test E every wednesday from now on so that should tale me into the range pretty much. I will stay there for a year or so now and continue the HGH. That stuff is amazing, I measured my bf yesterday and I am down to 12% from 16% when I started just 8 weeks ago.


kudos on the fat loss kale...did you gain weight but lose body fat

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## Kale

> kudos on the fat loss kale...did you gain weight but lose body fat


I am sitting on 84kg right now thats 2 kg up from when I started the cycle with the fat loss, and I have a lot of at to go untill I am happy.

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## Mobligator

> Thanks Mate, appreciate the guest book entry, that was really nice of you. I still gets lots of hits to the site. It is my memorial to her 
> 
> The Estrogen is definitly under control I tale a-dex everyday and my test showed it in the low to normal range. I am definitly going to get the Test level down. I am going to shoot 60mg Test E every wednesday from now on so that should tale me into the range pretty much. I will stay there for a year or so now and continue the HGH. That stuff is amazing, I measured my bf yesterday and I am down to 12% from 16% when I started just 8 weeks ago.


I've never used any HGH but I know of many bodybuilders and weightlifters who have and they made tremendous gains using it. Most of them stacked it with other Anabolics to get a double whammy. Not long ago I was offered a vial of Nutropin AQ in exchange for some T.cyp (Nutropin AQ comes already mixed) After reading the flyer that comes with the GH I gave it back to my friend and told him I couldn't take the risk of using it. The reason why I didn't use it, the enclosed flyer said it should not be used by anyone with suspected prostate or breast cancer. Then I did some research on it and below is just one article of many that can be found in google.

*Human Growth Hormone (HGH) medications increase risks of colon, prostate and breast cancers.* 

_Genetically Engineered Anti-Aging Medication (HGH) Poses Undisclosed Cancer Risks, Warns Samuel S. Epstein, M.D._

http://www.preventcancer.com/avoidab.../hgh_risks.htm

"Seems like everything we like is either bad for you or fattening".  :Frown:

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## Kale

Well guys the news just got a whole lot worse. I had another PSA test done yesterday which is only a month after the last one and the PSA has gone from 5 to 8 !!!! My Test levels are down to 929 and my Estragen is as low as 12. So I guess I am pretty much fvcked now. The Dr is going to organise a biopsy this week some time. Its 6.00 am here and I am shitting myself !!!

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## zaggahamma

fvck man...i saw the email..thought that thread was dead....bro...you've been on top of your shiat...either way, you're gonna knock this shiat out...right here for you bro

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## Kale

Thanks mate. I am shitting myself right now. Not sure what to do or if even to do anything. I watched my daughter die from cancer and it is not a good way to go.

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## zaggahamma

I can feel ya man...your angel is with you too bro....you've been monitoring everything closely that's why you caught this shiat quick and that's why you'll be able to fix it quick as well....lot of ppl in your corner bro

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## Mighty Joe

Bro, How does your Doc feel about running another PSA this week before you do the biopsy? You know, just to confirm that result. Remember not all pathologists are created equal. Give yourself a few days of (No Lifting, No Alcohol, No Caffiene, No Testosterone and No Sex of any kind) then re-take the PSA. That should provide a more accurate result. 

Worth a try bro.....Keep us posted

MJ

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## Kale

> Bro, How does your Doc feel about running another PSA this week before you do the biopsy? You know, just to confirm that result. Remember not all pathologists are created equal. Give yourself a few days of (No Lifting, No Alcohol, No Caffiene, No Testosterone and No Sex of any kind) then re-take the PSA. That should provide a more accurate result. 
> 
> Worth a try bro.....Keep us posted
> 
> MJ


Hey MJ

I will get another test, the only thing I did yesterday when it was taken was have a cup of coffee about 4 hours before thes test. I refrained from sex for a few days and last time I lifted was last Thursday. To jump from 5 to 8 in a month something has to be seriously wrong. My fatherinlaw was diagnosed with Prostate Cancer and his PSA was 8 as well. I am stopping all Test and HGH as of today. I may try and do a PCT but I am not sure my natty test will restart now. At 51, 8 is a really bad number  :Frown:

----------


## cmax

Kale do you have any other prostate related symptoms such as difficulty urinating or having to wake up multiple times at night to go to the bathroom?

This is scary stuff. My PSA was 1.3 but my estrogen was 9 even without taking anything.

Do you think that HRT is responsible for these PSA results?

----------


## Kale

> Kale do you have any other prostate related symptoms such as difficulty urinating or having to wake up multiple times at night to go to the bathroom?
> 
> This is scary stuff. My PSA was 1.3 but my estrogen was 9 even without taking anything.
> 
> Do you think that HRT is responsible for these PSA results?


Mate that PSA level is so low its irrelevent so dont worry. Estrogen is excellent as well. If I had those number I would be one happy dude. 

I have no idea as to whether HRT caused it or not but it is a possiblity, there are many studies both for and against Testosterone causing Prostate Cancer. I am also doing HGH so that is a possiblity as well, although again the research I have done shows studies both for and against, so who the hell knows, the Dr's sure dont. 

I have BPH (Benighn Prostate Hyperplasia) which means basically an enlarged Prostate. I have had trouble in the past urinating and wakeing up mutiple times but that was fixed with drugs. I doubt this is an infection I have as there is no pain whatsoever.

----------


## cmax

You talked about family members having prostate cancer like a step father and a father-in-law, but what about your biological father, uncles, or grandfather did they have prostate problems?

I believe that some people are more predisposed to prostate problems due to their hereditary.

Good Luck Kale, there are some excellent doctors in Singapore. Mount Elizabeth hospital is a great facility.

----------


## Kale

> You talked about family members having prostate cancer like a step father and a father-in-law, but what about your biological father, uncles, or grandfather did they have prostate problems?
> 
> I believe that some people are more predisposed to prostate problems due to their hereditary.
> 
> Good Luck Kale, there are some excellent doctors in Singapore. Mount Elizabeth hospital is a great facility.


Absoluetly nothin in my family at all. My father is 80 and never been sick a day in his life. I was in Mount Elizabeth having my tonsils out three weeks ago. Trouble is health care here is hugely expensive. I think if this turns out to be bad I will probably return to Oz

----------


## cmax

Kale are you a Singaporean? I heard that the government picks up much of the medical bills for their citizens, but when I lived there it was expensive for ex-patriots that did not have insurance.

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## Kale

> Kale are you a Singaporean? I heard that the government picks up much of the medical bills for their citizens, but when I lived there it was expensive for ex-patriots that did not have insurance.


Yes I live in Singapore. The government does do a bit but no where near enough. I have Health Insurance as well, but I just had an operation on my throat whuch cost $10,000 I am not sure I have any more coverage this year

----------


## Mighty Joe

Kale,

Good morning bro! My guess is its pretty early out your way!

Do you still have access to Mobligator? Is he still on the brd? He seemed to be loaded with helpful info.

Keep us posted on the next PSA results.

Mj

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## zaggahamma

yeh..mobligator has been posting recently....used to be mostly on weekends...he knows alot about the prostate...he had cancer and beat it

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## Kale

> Kale,
> 
> Good morning bro! My guess is its pretty early out your way!
> 
> Do you still have access to Mobligator? Is he still on the brd? He seemed to be loaded with helpful info.
> 
> Keep us posted on the next PSA results.
> 
> Mj


MJ I was hopeing he would be around, he probably isnt active all the time. I had another PSA test done yesterday and had it sent to a different lab as per your advice, should get the results today The Dr cant believe its cancer as it has jumped so high so quickly, but they dont know shit at the end of the day. The biopsy is scheduled for tomorrow at 11.30am Singapore time.

----------


## ***xxx***

> MJ I was hopeing he would be around, he probably isnt active all the time. I had another PSA test done yesterday and had it sent to a different lab as per your advice, should get the results today The Dr cant believe its cancer as it has jumped so high so quickly, but they dont know shit at the end of the day. The biopsy is scheduled for tomorrow at 11.30am Singapore time.



my thoughts are with you kale! 

did you tell your doc that you were cycling?

----------


## Kale

> my thoughts are with you kale! 
> 
> did you tell your doc that you were cycling?


Absolutely the Eurologist and the Dr both know. I havnt spoken to the urologist yet but the Dr doesnt think its cancer because of the Test I take

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## Mighty Joe

I'm glad your sent the PSA off to a different lab bro!
Let us know the score when you get it.

We're all in your corner!!!

MJ

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## Kale

> I'm glad your sent the PSA off to a different lab bro!
> Let us know the score when you get it.
> 
> We're all in your corner!!!
> 
> MJ


I got the test back last night. Unfortunately its pretty much identical. I go to the Urologist in three hours for the biopsy. The wait a few days for the results.

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## Mighty Joe

> I got the test back last night. Unfortunately its pretty much identical. I go to the Urologist in three hours for the biopsy. The wait a few days for the results.



You did the right thing regarding the second PSA Kale, even though we didn't get the result we were looking for! Keep us posted regarding the biopsy. We are always here for you!

MJ

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## pedro01

Like I said yesterday - good luck with the results. You seem to have a lot of shit on your plate at the moment. 

I just read your website for Jazzy - I am completely choked sitting here at work now. 

Seems like you are due a few lucky breaks.

Call me if you need anything.

Pedro

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## clomid222

Kale, this is off topic, but I was wondering if the scene over at Orchard Towers really lives up to the hype. Does it?

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## Kale

> Kale, this is off topic, but I was wondering if the scene over at Orchard Towers really lives up to the hype. Does it?


Mate you are hilarious. I could be dieing here are you are asking me about Orchard Towers !! But its OK I see the funny side of this  :Wink/Grin:  And yes it really does live up to its hype. Its not called the Four Floors of Whores for nothing dude.

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## Kale

> Like I said yesterday - good luck with the results. You seem to have a lot of shit on your plate at the moment. 
> 
> I just read your website for Jazzy - I am completely choked sitting here at work now. 
> 
> Seems like you are due a few lucky breaks.
> 
> Call me if you need anything.
> 
> Pedro


Mate good to see you back. Say hello to Missy for me. Nice Avi btw  :LOL:  I just got back from the Dr. Man these guys could not organise a pissup in a brewery. They told me they would biopsy today. I get there and he says no. We do another blood test for FREE PSA and that is a huge indicator of cancer or not and if the number is high (yes high) then the chances of caner is extremly low and you wont need a biopsy at all. I will get that result tomorrow. Also apparently you need to be on antibiotics for five days before they do the biopsy for some reason so even if these tests do indicate cancer I wont even get the biopsy until the end of next week. I then asked him about options and costs. Fvck me, if I have this its an expensive cure. Thirty grand to have the little fvcker removed. I may not be able to afford to live !!!

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## paulzane

Sorry to read about your problems Kale ...... best of luck with the future. Life sometimes doesn't seem fair and you have had more than your fair share of shite. I have been to Jazzy's site this afternoon as well, and also read what that tosser had sent to you. The site was beautiful ..... a lovely tribute to her, your wife and kids as well. You brought tears to my eyes the other day .... this time you made me cry!!!

If I prayed then my prayers would be with you .... but unfortunately I can only offer you the best of luck!

Paul

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## cj1capp

> Mate good to see you back. Say hello to Missy for me. Nice Avi btw  I just got back from the Dr. Man these guys could not organise a pissup in a brewery. They told me they would biopsy today. I get there and he says no. We do another blood test for FREE PSA and that is a huge indicator of cancer or not and if the number is high (yes high) then the chances of caner is extremly low and you wont need a biopsy at all. I will get that result tomorrow. Also apparently you need to be on antibiotics for five days before they do the biopsy for some reason so even if these tests do indicate cancer I wont even get the biopsy until the end of next week. I then asked him about options and costs. Fvck me, if I have this its an expensive cure. Thirty grand to have the little fvcker removed. I may not be able to afford to live !!!


DAME I DONT KNOW WHAT TO SAY. MAYBE WE CAN GET A SAVE A KALE FUND GOING. THIS BOARD HAS A LOT OF MEMBERS WE EACH A FEW BUCK TO MAKE WHAT THE DIFFERENCE. I WOULD CHIP IN.

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## Kale

> DAME I DONT KNOW WHAT TO SAY. MAYBE WE CAN GET A SAVE A KALE FUND GOING. THIS BOARD HAS A LOT OF MEMBERS WE EACH A FEW BUCK TO MAKE WHAT THE DIFFERENCE. I WOULD CHIP IN.


Dont even think about it !!!. I didnt mention it for that bro but thanks anyway.

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## cj1capp

Kale Im Serious, You Have Helped Me Out Before And I Did Not Think You Were Asking For Help, I Am Hoping We Will Be Offering It. Any Chance You Can Come To California I Know Dr. Peter Carol ,google Him I Work With Him Make Sure You Have A Dame Fine Sugeron. Peter Carroll, MD
Professor and Chair of Urology
HERE IT IS 
http://urology.ucsf.edu/

----------


## Kale

> Kale Im Serious, You Have Helped Me Out Before And I Did Not Think You Were Asking For Help, I Am Hoping We Will Be Offering It. Any Chance You Can Come To California I Know Dr. Peter Carol ,google Him I Work With Him Make Sure You Have A Dame Fine Sugeron.
> 
> HERE IT IS 
> http://urology.ucsf.edu/


Nows thats a possiblity !!! Thanks a lot my friend. Hopefully it wont come to that though, but I will know more tomorrow and for sure by the end of next week.

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## cj1capp

> Nows thats a possiblity !!! Thanks a lot my friend. Hopefully it wont come to that though, but I will know more tomorrow and for sure by the end of next week.


IM KEEPING GOOD THOUGHTS FOR YOU MY FRIEND.

----------


## Mighty Joe

> Mate you are hilarious. I could be dieing here are you are asking me about Orchard Towers !! But its OK I see the funny side of this  And yes it really does live up to its hype. Its not called the Four Floors of Whores for nothing dude.



Damn Kale! Bro, you handled that question like the true classy bro you a ARE!
I might've come unglued.......

Take care, MJ

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## clomid222

> Mate you are hilarious. I could be dieing here are you are asking me about Orchard Towers !! But its OK I see the funny side of this  And yes it really does live up to its hype. Its not called the Four Floors of Whores for nothing dude.


Kale, I am glad that you got a laugh out of that one.

I totally don't think that you are dying or have prostate cancer. PSA levels alone do not give doctors enough information to distinguish between benign prostate conditions and cancer. However, the doctor will take the result of the PSA test into account when deciding whether to check further for signs of prostate cancer.

I wish that all of us could just get our damn prostates removed. That would make things much easier. Who in the hell needs their prostate anyways?

I hope and would be willing to bet that it is nothing. I hear that you can lower your PSA levels by consuming large amounts of anchor beer and chilli crabs. It's worth a try!

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## STYLE74

Our prayers are with you kale and i hope everything comes back negative, i feel you will be fine. If you need anything don't hesitate to ask. Style74

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## Kale

OK just got back, the news is still not great. My free PSA is 11.9% the range is from 0-10% pretty conclusive for malignancey, 10-25% Inconclusive, 25%+ no tumor. So I am pretty close to being sure that there is something there. The Dr recommends biopsy. I have decided I am going back to Oz in a month and a half and I am going to have the whole thing redone there and the biopsy as well if necessary. They just cant explain the big jump and I am not confident in the Urologist. If I have cancer, six weeks wont make much difference as they arnt fast growing anyway. I am happy with that decision and I am resigned to the fact that whatever will be will be, and there isnt a whole lot I can do about it. I am comming off HGH, I stopped on Monday anyway but I am staying on 50mg Test E a week until the biospy if I need one. Where is Mobligator when I need him !!!

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## clomid222

Wow that sounds serious. During your last test you had a PSA of 8 and now it's 11.9??? I hope that this 11.9 is on a different scale. I have heard that anything about 4.0 is bad. 

Where or what is Oz? They have good doctors in Singapore, but you might want to consider going to the United States to a urology specialty center to see what they recommend. 

It seems like a biopsy may be the only way to go here. 

Other than these test results, how do you feel healthwise?

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## Kale

> Wow that sounds serious. During your last test you had a PSA of 8 and now it's 11.9??? I hope that this 11.9 is on a different scale. I have heard that anything about 4.0 is bad. 
> 
> Where or what is Oz? They have good doctors in Singapore, but you might want to consider going to the United States to a urology specialty center to see what they recommend. 
> 
> It seems like a biopsy may be the only way to go here. 
> 
> Other than these test results, how do you feel healthwise?


No, the 8 was Total PSA, the 11.9 is FREE PSA, they are totally different tests. Oz is Australia ! Healthwise, I would not know anything was wrong if I hadnt had the test done I will be sailing hapilly along. I have thought about the US but its hella expensive there.

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## Mighty Joe

Kale, if you're not getting a good vibe from the Doc in Singapore than by all means back to Oz!

Let me see if I understand: If free PSA is above 25% than all is well? But at 11.9 yours is inconclusive....correct? So, in a free PSA test the higher the number the better? Geesch, this is getting confusing!

I wish Mobligator would show up too. He has the most experience with all of this and would be so valuable to you now!

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## Mighty Joe

Kale,

Ya know I do remember Mobligator talking about specialists in Atlanta, Ga. That is where he went. Here is that website i just found it: www.rcog.com

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## cj1capp

kale i am looking into the possibility of getting you into a clinical trial at ucsf what about other universities doing clinical research http://urology.ucsf.edu/clinicalTria...ials_Jan05.pdf http://urology.ucsf.edu/patientguide...arch=%22psa%22

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## zaggahamma

mobligator should be posting soon it's the weekend

----------


## Mobligator

> OK just got back, the news is still not great. My free PSA is 11.9% the range is from 0-10% pretty conclusive for malignancey, 10-25% Inconclusive, 25%+ no tumor. So I am pretty close to being sure that there is something there. The Dr recommends biopsy. I have decided I am going back to Oz in a month and a half and I am going to have the whole thing redone there and the biopsy as well if necessary. They just cant explain the big jump and I am not confident in the Urologist. If I have cancer, six weeks wont make much difference as they arnt fast growing anyway. I am happy with that decision and I am resigned to the fact that whatever will be will be, and there isnt a whole lot I can do about it. I am comming off HGH, I stopped on Monday anyway but I am staying on 50mg Test E a week until the biospy if I need one. Where is Mobligator when I need him !!!


 Mobligator is right here! Sorry I didn't know about your problem sooner but I've been real busy this past week doing some work outside on the house. Sounds like you could have cancer but don't panic and worry yourself to death, like I almost did. It's a devastating diagnosis to receive but even if your biopsy is positive, remember this; *"you are not going to die from it".* You will live to be an old man like me but you won't be taking any testosterone injections for awhile, maybe never.

But you could very well have an infection too, "prostatitis". I had chronic prostatitis for about 12 years before I was diagnosed with PCa and my PSA went up to 9.4 once and was up around 6.9 -6.6 several times between 1994 -1996. When I finally got the PCa, my PSA shot up to 12.7 from 5.2 in 3 months. I took a course of the antibiotic *Bractrim* for two weeks and it went own to 9.3, at which time I knew I was in big trouble. That was in Dec of 2001. In Jan 2002 I got a biopsy that came back positive. Scared me half to death but I'm still here and you'll be alright too, regardless. They normally Rx Bactrim or Cipro for prostatitis. 

If you do have cancer don't be too quick about deciding which way to treat it. A Radical Prostatectomy (removing the prostate) is a very serious and invasive operation and it's only as good as the doctor who performs it. I wouldn't let any doctor touch me with a ten foot pole unless he had already performed at least 200-300 operations *successfully.* 

There are several very good treatments now besides prostatectomy and much less invasive. A friend of mine just had Cryrosurgery last December and he's fine now and doesn't have any side affects. At Stanford U in CA they recently used "Cyberknife" on four PCa patients, a new procedure utilizing radiation. If I had it to do over I might consider the Cyberknife. In Canada they are using Ultrasound, not yet approved in the U.S. I had the same treatment that Rudy Gulianna had but I had my treatment in Atlanta, GA at RCOG (Radiotherpy Clinics of GA) It consisted of the implanting of radioactive iodine seeds first, followed by conformal beam radiation 3 weeks later, using IMRT. IMRT is the most advanced form of conformal beam radiation and has far fewer side effects, esp on other organs. I never has any side effects! My advice would be to check out all of your options before making any decision. 

I'll tell you more about these procedures later but one thing you can take to the bank, "You are going to live through this!" Your PSA is still low as an indicator for the agressiveness of cancer. In the biopsy they will do a "Gleason" test on the samples they take. The Gleason score also shows how agressive the cancer is growing. You can look up all this information on the RCOG site and you can contact them to send you an information packet. Go to: www.rcog.net
I'll be getting back to you real soon. Hang in there.
Bob W.

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## Kale

Thanks for the response mate you are a great friend. Its weird I dont even know if I have got PC but I am already thinking of the consequences. I spoke to my Dr ia Australia today and she was all doom and gloom and said I should get a biopsy asap because it could be aggressive because of my young age. 

As for no test, well I might as well give up now. No sex life and turn into a woman, who needs a life like that, seriously. 

My Dr is going to call a firend of hers on Monday and see what can be done. A lot of the treatments you suggest are not available in Australia I suspect and I just cannot afford to go to the USA to have this treated if that becomes necesssary so I will have to take stock of what is available here.

I dont understand why none of the Dr's here have even mentioned Prostatitis. Are there symptoms for that. I feel nothing right now, nothing except fear that is

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## Mobligator

> Thanks for the response mate you are a great friend. Its weird I dont even know if I have got PC but I am already thinking of the consequences. I spoke to my Dr ia Australia today and she was all doom and gloom and said I should get a biopsy asap because it could be aggressive because of my young age. 
> 
> As for no test, well I might as well give up now. No sex life and turn into a woman, who needs a life like that, seriously. 
> 
> My Dr is going to call a firend of hers on Monday and see what can be done. A lot of the treatments you suggest are not available in Australia I suspect and I just cannot afford to go to the USA to have this treated if that becomes necesssary so I will have to take stock of what is available here.
> 
> I dont understand why none of the Dr's here have even mentioned Prostatitis. Are there symptoms for that. I feel nothing right now, nothing except fear that is




Sometimes there are symptoms of prostatitis and sometimes not. Depends on how severe it is and/or how long you've had it, but eventually you do get symptoms. Also the symptoms are sometimes worst if you already have BPH. One of the first is a burning sensation when urinating, frequent urination, often hard to start urination (esp when getting up at night to go) and when/if it gets real bad, you might have a seepage similar to the clap. I've learned over the years how to detect it before it gets too bad and a rise in your PSA is *always* suspect for a prostate infection. I don't know why your MD's haven't mentioned it. Remember, mine went up to 9.4 simply from a prostate infection. And once you get an infection they are extremely difficult to get rid of completely. Reason being, the prostate is like a sponge and the bacteria can get in the cracks and crevices hiding there in a somewhat dormant stage and then at some later time, flare up again. You can have a normal sex life again even after PCa. If you are certain all of the cancer has been eradicated you can probably take test again. My Uro told me that when I was in Atlanta but I'm just not that certain yet. I have dabbled in some Andro Gel occasionally and taken a few small injections but everytime I do my PSA goes up and I stop taking it. But right now you're putting the cart before the horse.
I do want to inform you about one treatment that will most definitely ruin your sex life. They call it the Hormone treatment, which is a misnomer. It's actually "hormone ablation" and what it does is stop your body from producing testosterone , a type of chemical castration. It's not even a cure but will only stop the growth of androgen dependent cancer for a period of time, usually not more than 3 years and then when the cancer becomes non-dependent on androgen it will begin to grow again. Ablation will put you through Andropause , the equivalent of a womans menopause, hotflashes, weakness, muscle atrophy, bone mass loss, etc. Bad stuff!

Im going to do you a favor and give you a comprehensive, all inclusive source for information on prostate cancer. Don Cooley is one of the most renowned experts on prostate cancer in the U.S., all (self learned), and if you cant find the answer on prostate cancer on one of his web sites or from him personally, the answer is most likely not known. He knows more than most Urologists and Oncologists on the subject. I want you to first read his biography and youll see what I mean. Then check out his web sites. He can also tell you what and where treatments are available, maybe even in Australia. He has a wealth of information. 
Check out his bio at: http://prostate-help.blogs.com/about.html

Here are two of his web sites.

http://www.prostate-help.org/

http://prostate-help.blogs.com/prost...h_cancer_.html


Get yourself educated as much as possible just in case you do have PCa. "A good education is the best cure". It'll also calm your nerves. Bob W.

----------


## powerlifter

Great info mobilgator !! I agree it could be prostatitis - get a PSA done just to be sure. Check with your MD.

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## Mobligator

> Great info mobilgator !! I agree it could be prostatitis - get a PSA done just to be sure. Check with your MD.


I Like your Avatar. The ol testosterone structure. The chemical structure of life.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Anyway, if Kale takes a good antibiotic for 10 days to two weeks before he get another PSA, it'll go down if it's an infection. However the best way for the Doc to check for infection is to do a smear test from massaging the prostate and check it under a microscope. They like to do urine tests but I've had them miss infections that way about 50-60 percent of the time.

----------


## Kale

> I Like your Avatar. The ol testosterone structure. The chemical structure of life.  Anyway, if Kale takes a good antibiotic for 10 days to two weeks before he get another PSA, it'll go down if it's an infection. However the best way for the Doc to check for infection is to do a smear test from massaging the prostate and check it under a microscope. They like to do urine tests but I've had them miss infections that way about 50-60 percent of the time.


Mate what antibiotic would you suggest ? And by smear test do you mean look at the sperm ?

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## Mobligator

> Mate what antibiotic would you suggest ? And by smear test do you mean look at the sperm ?


I think the best antibiotic for prostate infection is Bactrim DS or Septra DS. (DS for double strength). They are the same drugs but different brand names. The chemical name is, sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprim and will be less expensive if you have your doc write the Rx for the chemical names or the generic. The first name is a sulfa drug as you probably guessed and the second is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is very effective against bacteria/pathogens of the urinary tract. Most Uro's will prescribe this Rx for prostatitis. Cipro will work but I don't think it's as fast or as effective.

With the smear test they massage the prostate gland with their finger for a few seconds until a couple drops of prostate fluid leaks out on a slide to put under a microscope. Just like the digital exam.

Try it for a couple weeks and then get another PSA done. I've seen mine drop down significantly (3-4 points) in a couple weeks. Good Luck.

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## Kale

Guys I have some good news I think. Thanks to Mobligator and some research I did I suggested to my DR (not the Urologist) that I may have Prostatitis and I should try some antibiotics before the Biopsy. He appologised for not thinking of that even though I have no symptoms. He put me on Antibiotics for three days. I have since read It should be for at least two weeks. Well I just had another PSA Test done and its gone down from 8 to 5.6 in three weeks. Remember it went from 5 to 8 in four weeks previously. So things are looking a little better. I spoke to the Dr again this morning and I am going back on the antibiotics for another two weeks and we will re test again then depending on that result I will decide if I do a biopsy or not. For anybody reading this in the future who might have the same issue, have a look at this web site http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/contents.htm it is a god send !!!!

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## Mobligator

> Guys I have some good news I think. Thanks to Mobligator and some research I did I suggested to my DR (not the Urologist) that I may have Prostatitis and I should try some antibiotics before the Biopsy. He appologised for not thinking of that even though I have no symptoms. He put me on Antibiotics for three days. I have since read It should be for at least two weeks. Well I just had another PSA Test done and its gone down from 8 to 5.6 in three weeks. Remember it went from 5 to 8 in four weeks previously. So things are looking a little better. I spoke to the Dr again this morning and I am going back on the antibiotics for another two weeks and we will re test again then depending on that result I will decide if I do a biopsy or not. For anybody reading this in the future who might have the same issue, have a look at this web site http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/contents.htm it is a god send !!!!


THERE IS A GOD! I am extremely happy for you. If you had prostate cancer it's doubtful the antibiotics would not have lowered your PSA that much in three weeks and I seriously doubt if PCa would have raised your PSA from 5 to 8 in four weeks. Stay on the antibiotics for a couple/three more weeks and _try_ to abstain from ejaculation  :No No:  and any heavy lifting 3-4 days before your next PSA. And don't let them do a digital exam before they draw blood for the PSA. "And thank the Lord."

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## Mighty Joe

Great News Kale! ........sounds like your avatar will be pleased for many years to come!!!!

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## zaggahamma

very optomistic bro...keep prayin 4 u

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## Ufa

Looking better. Hope things turn out fine.

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## clomid222

Kale so how are you doing now with your prostate problem? Has everything turned around for the better?

I hope that the antibiotics helped your problem!

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## Kale

> Kale so how are you doing now with your prostate problem? Has everything turned around for the better?
> 
> I hope that the antibiotics helped your problem!


Great question dude. I finished a four week course of antibiotics last week. I have been traveling ever since though. I will be home tomorrow so I will get another blood test done and see what the result is then. Fingers crossed !!!

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## zaggahamma

> Get question dude. I finished a four week course of antibiotics last week. I have been traveling ever since though. I will be home tomorrow so I will get another blood test done and see what the result is then. Fingers crossed !!!


wish you well man

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## Spyke

Kale, 

I don't know how the hell I missed this thread for so long! I had no idea what you were going through. Sounds like things are looking up. I am gonna keep my fingers crossed for you. BTW. I just looked at your little girl's site and it literally brought tears to my eyes. I lost my Mom to brain cancer back in 1994. I will keep your girl in my thoughts and prayers.

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## fbcoach

Hey Kale....my father had prostate cancer at 60. Had it removed and lived another 12 years until passing away this past year (had nothing to do with the cancer) If caught in time, it is usually successful. The weird think about it is his PSA would go up at times..without a prostate. Anyway....good luck and God bless.

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## Kale

Hey guys thanks for the support I really appreciate it. I had another PSA done yesterday. My Dr is just awesome, he took the blood at 12PM and did a rush order. He actually went to the lab to pick up the results because he knew I was sweating so much.

Well the PSA has gone down from 5.6 to 4.6 after a course of Antibiotics. Originally it was 8. Its still not below 4 which is the top of the range but I am still pretty happy with the results.

I am going back to Australia next week for three weeks vacation so I am going to find a good Urologist and get a second opinion about all of this.

I am not out of the woods yet but its looking a lot better. Interestingly since I have been on the antibiotics my urine flow has gotten a lot better

----------


## zaggahamma

glad to hear the positive turn bud

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## fbcoach

That's great..the best thing you're doing is taking an active role in your health care. Too many put all their fauth in just 1 Dr.
By the way..Thai girls are GREAT..Pinays are pretty nice too :Smilie:  
Good Luck!!

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## Kale

> That's great..the best thing you're doing is taking an active role in your health care. Too many put all their fauth in just 1 Dr.
> By the way..Thai girls are GREAT..Pinays are pretty nice too 
> Good Luck!!


Thanks dude. I learned a lot about taking control when my daughter was sick. Pinays are my second favourite  :7up:

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## Kale

OK guys here we go again. I am in Australia at the moment on holiday. I went to see a specialist here yesterday. He is a Professor and pretty well renowned here. He said i should have had a biopsy done two years ago !!! He said at my age that the PSA should be around 2.5 and that he is "concerned". I havnt mentioned that I am on Test or anything as yet. I have the Biopsy done this Wednesday. He said if there is cancer, that at my age the ONLY option is a radical Prostatectomy because of my life expectancy and that I WILL lose my ability to get erections for the rest of my life.

Great Xmas present thats for sure. I seriously dont know what I will do if I have cancer, I doubt I could bring myself to let them turn me into a fvcking woman thats for sure.

----------


## vitor

Kale-My father is in the exactly same situvation you are now,(I dont know what hes exact values are, but they was high). 

Ime going to pray for both of you, 
ALL THE BEST!!

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## fbcoach

Kale..sorry to hear that. As I said earlier, my father had prostae cancer i 95', then had it removed. I'm not sure about all the details, but I will check into it. I wish you the best, and as Vitor said, we will keep you in our prayers.

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## Ufa

Make sure you don't have a urine infection first. (Just something I read
from symptoms.) Hope all goes well. Some how I think it will.

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## zaggahamma

definately hope all goes well and prayin bro

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## Mighty Joe

Kale my brutha, 
Lets do this thing one step at a time bro! We are here for you and yes we are concerned, but lets not get ahead of ourselves! If its cancer why would the PSA come down after a course of anti-biotics? Do the biopsy and lets see where we go next. We are here for you and we'll help in anyway we can!!!!
Also, how soon after Wednesday will the Doc give you the Biopsy report?
Keep us posted.

MJ

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## Kale

Thanks for the support guys. I go for for the Biopsy tomorrow morning. And just to top off my year my wife had a scan today of one of her breasts as there is a lump in there, so we will both know by Friday if we BOTH have cancer or not, now doesnt that just fvcking suck, especially as my daughter died nine years ago from a Brain Tumor at just three and a half. My 14 yo old son asked my wife if there was any hope for him, last night !!!

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## zaggahamma

Let God be with you all today Kale.

J

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## fbcoach

Kale, the good thing is you both are keeping up with your health and taking an active role. If you do find a cancer, it will be caught in time, and this makes all the difference in the world. My sister, just this year had breast cancer. She just had a mastectomy. She is really good right now, and handling it GREAT. Better than I imagined she would. Good luck and again, you and your wife will be in our prayers.

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## AnabolicBoy1981

kale, im sorry you gotta deal with all this.
hope it turns out.

curious though....why would antibiotics bring down PSA levels? is that a common occurance?

kale, taken *****-3s? they r supposed to help with prostate somewhat.

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## Kale

> kale, im sorry you gotta deal with all this.
> hope it turns out.
> 
> curious though....why would antibiotics bring down PSA levels? is that a common occurance?
> 
> kale, taken *****-3s? they r supposed to help with prostate somewhat.


Thanks mate. PSA can be elevated for many reasons not just cancer. One of the reasons is an infection, its called Prostatitis and I definitely had that. I just got back from the biopsy and I get the results in two days. The Urologist spoke to me and he seemed pretty happy that cancer was a small chance, it all looked good in the ultrasound so I now have my hopes up and hopefully for a good reason.

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## harveyjblch

Kale, I will keep you and your wife in my prayers. I hope everything is OK.
my wife had a lump in her breast years ago and it turned out to be a tumor, they had to remove it and everything is good.
I am sorry to hear about the loss of your daughter.

take care bro.....

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## Kale

Oh Boy !!! I am I in a happy place right now. I just got back from the Urologist and I DONT have Cancer !!!! Well not yet anyway, there are some cells there that arnt normal. Here is what the found

Prostatic Intraepithelial Neoplasia is believed to be the most likely precursor of prostate cancer. It is a proliferative lesion i.e. it is composed of prostatic epithelial cells that are dividing more rapidly than normal epithelium. However, the cells have not yet become cancerous. Pin can be classified as high grade, medium grade and low grade. Low grade PIN is less worrisome that the other two grades.

Mine is high grade, so there is a good chance I will get it in the future. But for now we just monitor with PSA tests every six months

Man I have been shitting myself for six months since this first started. My wife is OK as well, looks like one her boob implants is leaking, so she gets a new set of tits and I get to live a while longer.

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## paulzane

Fantastic news Kale ... good to hear ... I have tears in my eyes now (maybe that is because of the CLOMID I am on ....lol)

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## zaggahamma

big words in there but sounds good so I'm happy for you...big relief, huh? i didn't have to wait that long so it must have been really rough on you all. 

do you have to alter your TRT with this news Kale or take anything else?

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## onestone

Awesome news!

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## Spyke

Kale, I am so happy to hear this!

So are you gonna cut back on the test? Just stick to HRT doses or does it not matter at this point?

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## Mighty Joe

I knew it!! You'll be here for a long time with us elders trying to help the younger AR members stay safe and sound. You're an asset to this brd bro!

I'm happy for your wife as well! Its a good day at Kales house!!!!!

MJ

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## harveyjblch

GREAT NEWS KALE!!!!!!!!
Take care of yourself......

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## Mooch

You know, I never post, but I've gotta this time. That is excellent news.

Kale you are one of the guys that seems to be here for everybody, and this couldnt make me happier.

Enjoy your next 50!

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## Kale

Thanks for the kind words guys. !!! I love this place because of the support you guys give. I had the biopsy done last Wednesday but every time I pop a load its pure blood. I asked the Dr about and he says its normal and will clear after a certain number of ejaculations. I cant go near anyone at the moment because I am sure they would freak if the got a blood filled facial...so next week when I am back in Singapore and on my own I am going to be spanking it relentlessly to clear that shit out.. ewwwww  :Aajack:   :Aajack:

----------


## zaggahamma

> Thanks for the kind words guys. !!! I love this place because of the support you guys give. * I had the biopsy done last Wednesday but every time I pop a load its pure blood.* I asked the Dr about and he says its normal and will clear after a certain number of ejaculations. I cant go near anyone at the moment because I am sure they would freak if the got a blood filled facial...so next week when I am back in Singapore and on my own I am going to be spanking it relentlessly to clear that shit out.. ewwwww


yeh man...i remember...wasnt a pretty site pissin blood too....at least it's over bud...you and the misses will have a white Christmas soon Kale  :LOL:

----------


## Kale

> yeh man...i remember...wasnt a pretty site pissin blood too....at least it's over bud...you and the misses will have a white Christmas soon Kale


Dude how long did it take for the blood to stop in your cum. I only pissed blood the first couple of times after the biopsy, its been clear ever since, but I have shot six loads since Wednesday and its still full of blood, its fvcking gross

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## zaggahamma

> Dude how long did it take for the blood to stop in your cum. I only pissed blood the first couple of times after the biopsy, its been clear ever since, but I have shot six loads since Wednesday and its still full of blood, its fvcking gross


man, all i can remember was painting the fvcking toilet red for almost a week it seems....the doc said it would go away with 4 orgasms a day for 2 days...but the misses wasn't on board with that  :LOL:  
i also think it's like one of those memories your mind tries to forget, too.

take care kale

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## ***xxx***

congrats man!

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## Kale

> congrats man!


Thanks dude, its all good now. Took abou ten loads before the blood cleared. My wife had a biopsy done on a lump in here breast last week and that has just come back negative so we are all in a happy place right now.

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## Mighty Joe

> Thanks dude, its all good now. Took abou ten loads before the blood cleared. My wife had a biopsy done on a lump in here breast last week and that has just come back negative so we are all in a happy place right now.



Glad to hear all is well now brutha!!!

Now its just hit the gym time!!!! :7up:  

MJ

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## Kale

Well here we go again boys. So since my last post in Feb 2007 I have not had another PSA test done. I was just too scared which is dumb I know. Well three weeks ago I had one done and it came back 17.6 !!! As some of u may know the normal range is between 0 and 4. Well I thought the game was up there and then. So I found a kewl Dr here in Singapore, he is a American Oncologist who is an expert in Prostate Cancer. He was very positive and said that even if it was cancer I still had plenty of years left. He decided to do another PSA test and also do an MRI. Fvck me if the PSA test didnt come back at 8.5 !!!! Still very high bit nowhere near 17. Not sure if the lab screwed up or it was just me. MRI came back with nothing significant, so I had another biopsy done on Monday and today I got the results. No sign of cancer at all. 

Now the interesting thing is I have been on 250mg of test a week, my test and estrogen levels are through the roof, Test is double the top of the range. Estragen is off the charts as well but no symptoms. 

So here is the thing, Test is supposed to be like pouring gas on a fire, but the Dr is theorizing that it has actually protected me. Its never been proven that test is the cause of Prostate Cancer although the main treatment now is chemical castration !!! So here we are, my PSA is 8, nobody knows why and I dont have cancer. I will be having PSA tests done every six weeks for a while so that we can get some kind of bench mark going and move on from there. Moral of the story is, if you have a high PSA then dont automatically assume its cancer which I have done twice now.

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## zaggahamma

WOW KALE reliving the old scares...glad it turned out well  :Smilie:

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## Kale

> WOW KALE reliving the old scares...glad it turned out well


Thanks dude, it was terrifying. Interesting that the DR seems to think that high dose Test actually is protecting me

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## paulzane

Wow Kale ... good news on the bad news I suspect. I wish you all the best mate!!

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## paulzane

On the same note this year I had a very low haemoglobin reading on my medical and within a few days I was having an op for the old roids. Well that felt like I had been rodgered by John Holmes and Ron Jeremy at the same time ..... hurt like fcuk for at least 3 weeks (on the sick). 

Well during my wash up with the doc he said that there had been 6 guys in the past year who had had prostate problems! Now there are only around 200 people who are over 50 and not all of them go for medicals. I personally know 2 of these guys and one had his prostate removed as it was cancerous, but no chemo as it was only in the prostate. The other guy had bits shaven off his prostate with most of it still in tact.

I have just heard that another guy has been sent home with prostate cancer last week!

The main point I want to make is that these guys didn't realize that there was anything wrong and it was picked up in the over 50's medical that the company does!! The surgeon who operated on me said that he couldn't believe that I was going to the gym and work and didn't pass out and things like that.

So to everyone out there who is around the 50's mark then for fcuks sake get yourself to the doctors and have a decent medical that includes a PSA test. IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE!

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## zaggahamma

good advice but i would do a little sooner than 50

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## Kale

Paulzane thats great advice. Everyone needs to know that Prostate Cancer IS curable !!! But once its gets outside the Prostate vessle you are pretty much fvcked and its not a pleasant death, if there can be such a thing.

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## Testomaster

Hi Kale, I've just read for the first time the entire post ...First of all very sorry about your daughter , I bet she is the Angel helping you right now .

Well, we have some things in common... I have BPH since I was 35 , now I'm 43 . My prostate got several calcifications due to bacterial prostatitis I had in the past (Chlamydia , Thricomonas) , I'm also on TRT with 250 cyp. a week and I pass most of my life in Asia (Thailand and Singapore). 
Sometime I have some problem to empty my bladder so I take some Alfuzosin hydrochloride wich let me urine perfectly.

My grandfather died for prostate cancer, my father had a prostatectomy 6 years ago, his cancer was expanded to the colon so it was impossible to save the erection nerves...He said bye bye to his sexual life at age of 72 but at least he's still alive . As you surely know, these types of cancer have an hereditary component , this means I'm a serious candidate to develop prostate cancer in the coming years...

I have also done a lot of research about this problem , talked to many urologists , spended a lot of money in blood test , ultrasound , MRI etc.etc.

What I learned after all these years is that PSA is not always a specific test .

I give u an example... Years ago I had a bad NSU (non specific urethritis) , the cause was Chlamydia thracomathis , very popular in Asia. Problem of this bacterium is that most of the time it doesn't give any symptoms so when u find out u have it the bacterial has infected your prostate already.
How did I find out ? I did PSA and it was 14 ! The first thing I thought was a prostate cancer , fortunately it was not. After ultrasound and other tests I finally did the Chlamydya fluorescent antibody test (by blood) and the result was positive. I did a 2 months therapy of antibiotics (Erythromycin) , killed the bacterium and get my PSA back to normal range ( 0.45 ).

So I totally agree with you when u says that PSA doesn't always mean cancer. People who got calcifications like us , tends to develop inflammatory situations on the prostate gland (non bacterial prostatitis) that may cause an increase in the PSA , this is what most of the urologist told me and this is what I believe.

I do these tests every 6 months : ( and I suggest all the over 40 males to do the same ) ..

*PSA* , Carcinoembryonic Antigen (*CEA*) , Prostatic Acid Phosphatase (*PAP*) , Alpha Fetoprotein (*AFP*) ....And of course the infamous digital rectal exam  :Tear:   :Tear:   :Tear: 

Take care and good luck my friend .

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## zaggahamma

"Sometime I have some problem to empty my bladder so I take some* Alfuzosin hydrochloride* wich let me urine perfectly."

testo...can u explain this med to me a little more...is it a RX? is it a course of pills?

thanks

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## Testomaster

"_It's a Selective blockade for alpha 1 -adrenergic receptors in the lower urinary tract, which cause smooth muscle in the bladder neck and prostate to relax, resulting in improved urine flow and a reduction in symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia_"

In Europe is selled under the name * Mittoval* , in US *Uroxatral*.... Most of the time prostatitis and kidney infection are caused by stagnation of the urine in the bladder wich is a cause of BPH . If your urine flow is weak or/and you can't empty your bladder in the morning, you will love this drug. Forget Saw Palmetto, Betasisterol or Finasteride...This drug will really help you a lot. Ask your urologist...

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## zaggahamma

> "_It's a Selective blockade for alpha 1 -adrenergic receptors in the lower urinary tract, which cause smooth muscle in the bladder neck and prostate to relax, resulting in improved urine flow and a reduction in symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia_"
> 
> In Europe is selled under the name * Mittoval* , in US *Uroxatral*.... Most of the time prostatitis and kidney infection are caused by stagnation of the urine in the bladder wich is a cause of BPH . If your urine flow is weak or/and you can't empty your bladder in the morning, you will love this drug. Forget Saw Palmetto, Betasisterol or Finasteride...This drug will really help you a lot. Ask your urologist...


thanks testo...i know that my uro wanted to operate on my bladder for my leaky pipes well pipe...wondering if i should try this med first

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## Testomaster

> thanks testo...i know that my uro wanted to operate on my bladder for my leaky pipes well pipe...wondering if i should try this med first


Actually the newest procedure to decrease the size of the prostate gland is called Trans Urethral Resection of the Prostate (T.U.R.P.) wich is much more severe and painful than biopsy . I've friend who did it , he said it was a nightmare.

Try uroxatral .

----------


## zaggahamma

> Actually the newest procedure to decrease the size of the prostate gland is called Trans Urethral Resection of the Prostate (T.U.R.P.) wich is much more severe and painful than biopsy . I've friend who did it , he said it was a nightmare.
> 
> Try uroxatral .


i think i will and thanks again

----------


## edgarr

Well I hate to bring up an old thread but this is one of the most educating threads I have ever read (did the search last night) and right now I am in need of some serious educating!

About a year ago my blood worked showed that I had a PSA level of 3.3. I had been on HRT taking 100mg of Test E for about 6 months and HGH (very low dose) for about 3 months. After this blood work my Endo told me to stop both which I did cold turkey. I went and saw my Doc and he ran blood and urine work. My psa came back 4.4. He said I had a very large white blood cell count so he thought it was an infection and but me on an antibiotic (trying to find the name) for 4 weeks and when I re tested it was 3.4 so he had me see a Urologist. The Uro did a DRE and was not concerned so he wanted me to keep re testing every 6 weeks or so and see if the antibiotics start working. He is my results.

6/17/09 2.2 Free 22% (right direction)
8/6/09 2 Free 29% (right direction)
11/19/09 1.3 Free 30% (YEAH) Urologist says re test in 6 months

Keep in mind that I was always shocked at the high PSA because I never had any syptoms....NOTHING!

Mid Feb I go back on HRT taking 200mg Test C a week. Well I got blood work done 3/25/10 for Liver, IGF and PSA.................*PSA is 2.77!!!!!!* 3 months later.

Now reading this thread I read that sometimes "Prostatitis" is not always cured completely...could the infection flare back up? I'm scared shitless right now, help!

----------


## zaggahamma

> Well I hate to bring up an old thread but this is one of the most educating threads I have ever read (did the search last night) and right now I am in need of some serious educating!
> 
> About a year ago my blood worked showed that I had a PSA level of 3.3. I had been on HRT taking 100mg of Test E for about 6 months and HGH (very low dose) for about 3 months. After this blood work my Endo told me to stop both which I did cold turkey. I went and saw my Doc and he ran blood and urine work. My psa came back 4.4. He said I had a very large white blood cell count so he thought it was an infection and but me on an antibiotic (trying to find the name) for 4 weeks and when I re tested it was 3.4 so he had me see a Urologist. The Uro did a DRE and was not concerned so he wanted me to keep re testing every 6 weeks or so and see if the antibiotics start working. He is my results.
> 
> 6/17/09 2.2 Free 22% (right direction)
> 8/6/09 2 Free 29% (right direction)
> 11/19/09 1.3 Free 30% (YEAH) Urologist says re test in 6 months
> 
> Keep in mind that I was always shocked at the high PSA because I never had any syptoms....NOTHING!
> ...


i remember this thread...yes ...i had a scare...then kale...we all learned A LOT....are you 2.7 doesnt look alarming what does your doctor think....you WERE 4.4...now only 2.7....forgive me if i'm missing something but i dont see the alarm

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## edgarr

I was 4.4, Dr thought (no test) that it was an infection so he put me on Cipro back in May of 2009. PSA get going down and in Nov went to 1.3 and 30%. So now I think everything is fine and I start TEST again. Well now my PSA is back up to 2.77. So it doubled in 4 months!

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## zaggahamma

k....i see now that those numbers in your first post were still talking about psa.....kind of thru me off...

like i said wut does he think about the numbers....if i remember correctly 2.77 is not of grave concern...i'll bump it for you though

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## edgarr

I see my Urologist on the 9th. 

I agree that 2.77 is not the worse thing but why I am concerned is because it has doubled in 4 months and the fact that it went down to 1.3 from 4.4 and is now climbing back up. The Dr of course wants me to stop taking the TEST

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## zaggahamma

bump...wheres kale been

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## edgarr

Thanks.

I am so confused because if it was cancer then why would my PSA go down after taking the antibiotic? Also the only thing I did between Nov 1.3 and Mar 2.7 is start TEST and working out again, but if it was an infection why would the TEST cause it to flare back up?

----------


## zaggahamma

> Thanks.
> 
> I am so confused because if it was cancer then why would my PSA go down after taking the antibiotic? Also the only thing I did between Nov 1.3 and Mar 2.7 is start TEST and working out again, but if it was an infection why would the TEST cause it to flare back up?


i dont think 2.7 is a flare? did you or didnt you say you had a DRE?????

----------


## edgarr

> i dont think 2.7 is a flare? did you or didnt you say you had a DRE?????


I did have the DRE back in June 09 and the Urologist thought it was fine. Then in NOV 09 the last PSA test showed 1.3 so he felt no new action retest in 6 months but I tested 2 months early (lucky) and now I'm back up

----------


## zaggahamma

> I did have the DRE back in June 09 and the Urologist thought it was fine. Then in NOV 09 the last PSA test showed 1.3 so he felt no new action retest in 6 months but I tested 2 months early (lucky) and now I'm back up


sorry, i'm the only one chiming in edgarr...maybe start a new thread????????

----------


## Kale

Sorry guys been away for a long time. I have a new job and the fvcking travell is killing me. So we have a new customer I see. Dude stop worrying you dont have cancer. My PSA had been 6 for at least a year and I am still clear. I had two biopsys done so I know for sure (well almost) the bisopsies dont hit every bit of the prostate| My Dr and I wbith think its high because I have a very enlarged prostate and I am doing 150mg of Test E a week. So dude relax. Yours sounds like an infection to me

----------


## edgarr

> Sorry guys been away for a long time. I have a new job and the fvcking travell is killing me. So we have a new customer I see. Dude stop worrying you dont have cancer. My PSA had been 6 for at least a year and I am still clear. I had two biopsys done so I know for sure (well almost) the bisopsies dont hit every bit of the prostate| My Dr and I wbith think its high because I have a very enlarged prostate and I am doing 150mg of Test E a week. So dude relax. Yours sounds like an infection to me


Well thanks for the confidence. Back in May 2009 when it was 4.4 my Dr just assumed it was an infection because my white blood cell count was high. He put me on cipro and it fell to 1.3 in Nov 09. Do you think maybe the infection never went away completely and its back? Would the 200mg test a week cause it to flare up?

----------


## Kale

> Well thanks for the confidence. Back in May 2009 when it was 4.4 my Dr just assumed it was an infection because my white blood cell count was high. He put me on cipro and it fell to 1.3 in Nov 09. Do you think maybe the infection never went away completely and its back? Would the 200mg test a week cause it to flare up?


Prosatitis can be a bitch to get rid off and it can re occur. Obvioulsy if you have had it once you can have it again. As for the Test thats wont be the cause of Prostatitis, thats is an infection pure and simple. Is your Prostate enlarged ?

----------


## edgarr

> Prosatitis can be a bitch to get rid off and it can re occur. Obvioulsy if you have had it once you can have it again. As for the Test thats wont be the cause of Prostatitis, thats is an infection pure and simple. Is your Prostate enlarged ?


Well back around June 2009 when my PSA was in the 4's my Urologist did do a DRE and was not concerned, that is why he told me to just re test in 30 days which I did and it ws lower. 

I have never had any syptoms however I do take a saw palmento sup so not sure if that is masking the syptoms??

Would you reccomend quiting the test? I would hate to because last time I quit cold turkey I felt like total crap!!

----------


## edgarr

Update. My new bloodwork shows a PSA of 2.3 which is down from 2.7 in 3 weeks and Free PSA is 30% which is good. My TEST came back at 1313!!!! I am only taking 200mg a week. I'm confused because I don't feel like I have 1300 levels. Doc wants me to lower my dose to 100mg every two weeks and then re test my levels

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## zaggahamma

good to hear bro good to hear

----------


## flatscat

Bump

Lot's of good reading in here.

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## zaggahamma

> Bump
> 
> Lot's of good reading in here.


i'm still alive and kickin

----------


## edgarr

Well I hate to bring this thread back up but there is very good info here and I want to give my 1 year update.

Unfortunatley it is not what I want to say. First, I have been completely off all HRT. No TEST or HGH. At first it sucked but after awhile I got use to it. Put on weight and still have all the symptons of low TEST. I never took any medications to fight any possible infection as my doc never prescribed any so I am still hopefull that it is an infection that never went away and I will request antibiotics this time. I got my bloodwork back and my PSA is 2.7. It went down to 1.3 and that is why the doc advised me to wait a year and re test. Funny thing is, my TEST came back at 337! That is triple what it was before I started HRT. So it seems like my natural TEST production came back, not sure how but it did. Bad thing is, seems like my rise in PSA is directly correlated with higher TEST levels. My doc wants to perfrom a digital exam and after those results, perhaps a bioposy, which scares me to death! I am so confused. I will be 41 in June, stay active and have no signs of an enlarged prostate, WTF? My appointment for the digital is next week and I will update this thread. Anyone familiar with a new anti biotic that is used for prostate infections that I should ask about? I found this on the web: 

Antibiotics used to treat prostate infections include oral drugs like trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole, fluoroquinolones and doxycycline. In some cases, doctors prescribe an injection of the antibiotic ceftriaxone followed by an oral antibiotic, 

Thanks

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## zaggahamma

so he's saying since its at 2.7 that theres need of alarm and finger test and biopsy with 2.7 and no signs/problems?

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## GotNoBlueMilk

Those antibiotics aren't new. And unless you have an active bacterial infection they won't help.

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## edgarr

yes, feels that is too high for someone my age and since it has bounced around he thinks so.

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## zaggahamma

> yes, feels that is too high for someone my age and since it has bounced around he thinks so.


my uncle is 66 and has had some urination issues but since resolved....i wish he would have got a copy(s) of his bloodwork(s) during all his tests so i could see his psa numbers as he's goin in for a biopsy tomorrow although there arent any symptoms....i just would hate for someone to go under the knife just to make these fvckers money

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## edgarr

well I go to the doc Tuesday. Will discuss antibiotics with him first. Will report back what he tells me. I am sure I am searching here but odly enough, I went back and checked and everytime I had bloodwork done and the results were high PSA number it was around the same time I was also being lasered to have some tattoos removed. Maybe my body is having an allergic reaction to the ink it is breaking up causing an infection ( I sound desperate).

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## pat80flh

Howdy to all, newbie here, not a body builder, 53 year old man. During my "turning 50 physical", found high PSa levels: 9.0 ; was biopsied, affirmative for cancer, surgical removal of gland recomended. Subsequent testing for any spread raised red flags, unknown lesions on ribs, more and more testing was inconclusive. Bottom line, they don't THINK the lesions are anything serious, let's cut that out of there and hope for the best. Long story short, I went on a "natural" prostate cure, vegan diet, quit drinking etc. drove PSA down to 5.0. Then divorce, job change, new house,taking in sick mother, slacked off the second year, started drinking again, eating poorly, gained weight, PSA slowly climbing, up to 14.0 last visit. But I am now in position to really attack this tumor, life has settled down, quit drinking at the new year, eating right, doing a little weight training, as well as meditation and excersize. Really feel like I can at least hold this at bay for the rest of my life.
My research found a school of thought that low testosterone can actually cause prostate cancer, and men with higher levels are less likely to get it. I started having free testosterone levels checked with PSA and they've been consistently low, 2.9 to 5.2. Of course the doctors think I'm nuts, my primary care phy. says it would be medical malpractice to write a scrip, urologist says why my prostate isn't in a jar by now he'll never know, but testosterone supplementation would be like throwing gas on a fire. I was a fairly typical 50 year old biker/partier/blue collar worker, overweight, high blood pressure etc. and had no symptoms other than a bit of urination frequency. My self cure has brought me from 240 lbs to 177, cured any blood pressure and cholesterol numbers and made me incredibly fit. I feel I am on the verge of kicking the shit out of this thing and am considering going off the grid and self administer some T. Anybody ever done it? I figure I'm still pretty safe and if worse comes to worse I can always cave in and get cut, but I'd really rather not. All I'm looking to do is make my prostate think it's attached to a young healthy male and give it some help in curing itself. Any thoughts?

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## zaggahamma

> Howdy to all, newbie here, not a body builder, 53 year old man. During my "turning 50 physical", found high PSa levels: 9.0 ; was biopsied, affirmative for cancer, surgical removal of gland recomended. Subsequent testing for any spread raised red flags, unknown lesions on ribs, more and more testing was inconclusive. Bottom line, they don't THINK the lesions are anything serious, let's cut that out of there and hope for the best. Long story short, I went on a "natural" prostate cure, vegan diet, quit drinking etc. drove PSA down to 5.0. Then divorce, job change, new house,taking in sick mother, slacked off the second year, started drinking again, eating poorly, gained weight, PSA slowly climbing, up to 14.0 last visit. But I am now in position to really attack this tumor, life has settled down, quit drinking at the new year, eating right, doing a little weight training, as well as meditation and excersize. Really feel like I can at least hold this at bay for the rest of my life.
> My research found a school of thought that low testosterone can actually cause prostate cancer, and men with higher levels are less likely to get it. I started having free testosterone levels checked with PSA and they've been consistently low, 2.9 to 5.2. Of course the doctors think I'm nuts, my primary care phy. says it would be medical malpractice to write a scrip, urologist says why my prostate isn't in a jar by now he'll never know, but testosterone supplementation would be like throwing gas on a fire. I was a fairly typical 50 year old biker/partier/blue collar worker, overweight, high blood pressure etc. and had no symptoms other than a bit of urination frequency. My self cure has brought me from 240 lbs to 177, cured any blood pressure and cholesterol numbers and made me incredibly fit. I feel I am on the verge of kicking the shit out of this thing and am considering going off the grid and self administer some T. Anybody ever done it? I figure I'm still pretty safe and if worse comes to worse I can always cave in and get cut, but I'd really rather not. All I'm looking to do is make my prostate think it's attached to a young healthy male and give it some help in curing itself. Any thoughts?


dude sorry to hear

glad you made your self better under all these f'd up conditions...from what all i've read the throwing gas on the fire comment you made is what i have came to believe as true...

i can google this but i like this format but what is the worse if you have it removed? ....

i'll be around

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## THE-DET-OAK

I would be cautious with my T dose, while new studies in the last year or so have affirmed that physiological TT levels actually reduce the risk of prostate cancer, everything changes when you get into the supraphysiological range.

On top of that PSA levels are a great indicator, it is not extremely un-common to still get P cancer with proper PSA's. men, especially when the get older, need to get the finger up the butt every once and a while, I know it sux to hear, but better safe than sorry.

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## pittbulldad

on a side note if you do have prostate cancer... testosterone feeds it and makes it grow faster...

in regards to PSA they have found that half of the men treated for Prostate cancer that was diagnosed via PSA in the previous 10 years didn't actually need any treatment that they received...

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## zaggahamma

> on a side note if you do have prostate cancer... testosterone feeds it and makes it grow faster...
> 
> in regards to PSA they have found that half of the men treated for Prostate cancer that was diagnosed via PSA in the previous 10 years didn't actually need any treatment that they received...


who r "they" ?

and are you saying that the patients were told they had cancer and didnt actually have it?

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## pittbulldad

studies that have been done.. showed that about half of the men who had surgery or other treatments for prostate "cancer" due to elevated PSA's didn't actually need treatments... i don't have the acutal studies handy

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## zaggahamma

> studies that have been done.. showed that about half of the men who had surgery or other treatments for prostate "cancer" due to elevated PSA's didn't actually need treatments... i don't have the acutal studies handy


this is very interesting

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## THE-DET-OAK

> on a side note if you do have prostate cancer... testosterone feeds it and makes it grow faster...
> 
> in regards to PSA they have found that half of the men treated for Prostate cancer that was diagnosed via PSA in the previous 10 years didn't actually need any treatment that they received...


are you sure it was the testosterone???? I have seen some studies and I have always had the understanding that it was due to increase estrogen levels. Back in the day all they had to go on, for androgen therapy were studies of supraphysiological levels. This is why they screamed cancer. more recently, studies have been done on doses that keep TT in physiological range and the data changed, showing that TRT actually decreases risk of prostate cancer.

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## zaggahamma

> are you sure it was the testosterone???? I have seen some studies and I have always had the understanding that it was due to increase estrogen levels. Back in the day all they had to go on, for androgen therapy were studies of supraphysiological levels. This is why they screamed cancer. more recently, studies have been done on doses that keep TT in physiological range and the data changed, showing that TRT actually decreases risk of prostate cancer.


 yes i believe what you're saying is a poor estro to test ratio is shown in men with cancer but what's being said...IS...

IF...there is ALREADY cancer PRESENT.....THEN....testosterone is the fuel for the cancer...

and yes your last sentence is what i believe/read as well

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## pittbulldad

what jpkman says is correct.. if you already have prostate cancer testosterone feeds the cancer making it grow faster which is why they put men on estrogen therapy when they are diagnosed... although I think that type of therapy is not as common any more

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## THE-DET-OAK

testosterone DOES NOT FUEL PROSTATE CANCER, NOR DOES DHT. alot has changed in recent time about prostate cancer. Its the estrogen, in high amounts. all this stuff you read is old data. the reason it was believed to do so, like many other myths about TRT, is because for the longest time we had nothing to go except data on men taking bodybuilding doses, so as I said before, keeping TT levels within normal range is fine, even if you have prostate cancer, it may actually reduce studies have found, recently. for years docs wouldn't prescribe TRT because of this myth. same thing as diabetes. they are NOW finding TRT is not bad for diabetics, they are actually finding they need up to HALF the amount of insulin as they did before. TRT is rapidly changing, and is going to be HUGE! The health benefits are immeasurable!!!!!

Originally posted by Dr. Scally

“Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) treatment for 24 months does not affect prostate growth, but causes a decrease in spinal, but not hip, bone mineral density (BMD)," Australian researchers found after evaluating 114 men for two years. "Every six months, blood samples and questionnaires were collected, prostate volume was measured with ultrasonography, and BMD and body composition were measured with dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry," according to the paper in the Annals of Internal Medicine. "Compared with placebo, DHT reduced lumbar spine BMD (1.4%; 95% CI, 0.6% - 2.3%; P < .001) at 24 months but not hip BMD (P > .2) and increased serum aminoterminal propeptide of type I procollagen in the second year of the study." 


Dihydrotestosterone May Not Affect Prostate Growth But May Reduce BMD
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/732585

November 16, 2010 — Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) treatment for 24 months does not affect prostate growth but causes a decrease in spinal, but not hip, bone mineral density (BMD), according to the results of a randomized, placebo-controlled, parallel-group trial reported in the November 16 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine.

"Benign prostatic hypertrophy increases with age and can result in substantially decreased quality of life for older men," write Amanda Idan, BSc, MHSc, from Concord Hospital, ANZAC Research Institute, University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia, and colleagues. "Surgery is often required to control symptoms. It has been hypothesized that long-term administration of a nonamplifiable pure androgen might decrease prostate growth, thereby decreasing or delaying the need for surgical intervention."

At an ambulatory care research center, 114 healthy men older than 50 years without known prostate disease were randomly assigned to receive transdermal DHT (70 mg) or placebo gel daily for 2 years. Every 6 months, blood samples and questionnaires were collected, prostate volume was measured with ultrasonography, and BMD and body composition were measured with dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry. Data were analyzed by mixed-model analysis for repeated measures.

With time on study, there was an increase during 24 months in total prostate volume (29%; 95% confidence interval [CI], 23% - 34%), central prostate volume (75%; 95% CI, 64% - 86%; P < .01), and serum prostate–specific antigen level (PSA; 15%; 95% CI, 6% - 24%). However, DHT had no effect on these changes (P > .2).

Compared with placebo, DHT reduced lumbar spine BMD (1.4%; 95% CI, 0.6% - 2.3%; P < .001) at 24 months but not hip BMD (P > .2) and increased serum aminoterminal propeptide of type I procollagen in the second year of the study. In the DHT group, levels of serum DHT and its metabolites were increased, whereas serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels were suppressed. DHT increased hemoglobin levels (7%; 95% CI, 5% - 9%), serum creatinine levels (9%; 95% CI, 5% - 11%), and lean mass (2.4%; 95% CI, 1.6% - 3.1%) but reduced fat mass (5.2%; 95% CI, 2.6% - 7.7%; P < .001 for all).

DHT was not associated with any serious adverse effects but did cause some protocol-specific discontinuations. These were asymptomatic increased hematocrit levels in 8 patients, which resolved after treatment was stopped, and increased PSA levels in 3 patients, none of whom had prostate cancer.

"Negative findings on prostate growth cannot exclude adverse effects on the natural history of prostate cancer," the study authors write. "Dihydrotestosterone treatment for 24 months has no beneficial or adverse effect on prostate growth but causes a decrease in spinal but not hip BMD. These findings have important implications for the wider use of nonsteroidal pure androgens in older men."

In an accompanying editorial, Ronald S. Swerdloff, MD, from Harbor–University of California, Los Angeles, and Christina Wang, MD, from David Geffen School of Medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles, note that this study was not adequately powered to definitively answer the question of long-term safety of testosterone use.

"These data do show that a 10-fold increase in serum DHT levels had no significant effects on prostate size, serum DHT, and International Prostate Symptom Score, suggesting that the modest increases of serum DHT seen after testosterone treatment may not have a clinically significant effect on prostate health," Drs. Swerdloff and Wang write. "Idan and colleagues argue that their findings provide insight about the potential efficacy of future synthetic androgen receptor modulators that will likely share (with DHT) the anabolic effects on muscle and fat, as well as the sparing effects on the prostate. However, we caution that each synthetic androgen-receptor modulator could have a different target organ profile. We conclude that DHT acts as a hormone in tissues without high concentrations of 5α-reductase enzymes but mainly in an autocrine–paracrine manner in tissues like the prostate, in which 5α-reductase is abundant."

BHR Pharma supported this study. Some of the study authors have disclosed various financial relationships with BHR Pharma, Bayer Schering, Ascend/Besins, and/or Radius and Clarus Therapeutics. Drs. Swerdloff and Wang have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.



Idan A, Griffiths KA, Harwood DT, et al. Long-Term Effects of Dihydrotestosterone Treatment on Prostate Growth in Healthy, Middle-Aged Men Without Prostate Disease. Annals of Internal Medicine 2010;153(10):621-32. Long-Term Effects of Dihydrotestosterone Treatment on Prostate Growth in Healthy, Middle-Aged Men Without Prostate Disease — Ann Intern Med

Background: Benign prostatic hypertrophy increases with age and can result in substantially decreased quality of life for older men. Surgery is often required to control symptoms. It has been hypothesized that long-term administration of a nonamplifiable pure androgen might decrease prostate growth, thereby decreasing or delaying the need for surgical intervention.

Objective: To test the hypothesis that dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a nonamplifiable and nonaromatizable pure androgen, reduces late-life prostate growth in middle-aged men.

Design: Randomized, placebo-controlled, parallel-group trial. (Australian New Zealand Clinical Trials Registry number: ACTRN12605000358640)

Setting: Ambulatory care research center.

Participants: Healthy men (n = 114) older than 50 years without known prostate disease.

Intervention: Transdermal DHT (70 mg) or placebo gel daily for 2 years.

Measurements: Prostate volume was measured by ultrasonography; bone mineral density (BMD) and body composition were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry; and blood samples and questionnaires were collected every 6 months, with data analyzed by mixed-model analysis for repeated measures.

Results: Over 24 months, there was an increase in total (29% [95% CI, 23% to 34%]) and central (75% [CI, 64% to 86%]; P < 0.01) prostate volume and serum prostate-specific antigen level (15% [CI, 6% to 24%]) with time on study, but DHT had no effect (P > 0.2). Dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased spinal BMD (1.4% [CI, 0.6% to 2.3%]; P < 0.001) at 24 months but not hip BMD (P > 0.2) and increased serum aminoterminal propeptide of type I procollagen in the second year of the study compared with placebo. Dihydrotestosterone increased serum DHT levels and its metabolites (5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol and 5α-androstane-3β,17β-diol) and suppressed serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels. Dihydrotestosterone increased hemoglobin levels (7% [CI, 5% to 9%]), serum creatinine levels (9% [CI, 5% to 11%]), and lean mass (2.4% [CI, 1.6% to 3.1%) but decreased fat mass (5.2% [CI, 2.6% to 7.7%]) (P <0.001 for all). Protocol-specific discontinuations due to DHT were asymptomatic increased hematocrit (n = 8), which resolved after stopping treatment, and increased prostate-specific antigen levels (n = 3; none with prostate cancer) in the DHT group. No serious adverse effects due to DHT occurred.

Limitation: Negative findings on prostate growth cannot exclude adverse effects on the natural history of prostate cancer.

Conclusion: Dihydrotestosterone treatment for 24 months has no beneficial or adverse effect on prostate growth but causes a decrease in spinal but not hip BMD. These findings have important implications for the wider use of nonsteroidal pure androgens in older men.

Primary Funding Source: BHR Pharma.

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## THE-DET-OAK

Elsevier

Medical News: Revisiting Testosterone Tx in Prostate Ca - in Oncology, Prostate Cancer from MedPage Todayhttp://www.medpagetoday.com/Oncology...teCancer/26104

Purpose
A history of prostate cancer has been a longstanding contraindication to the use of testosterone therapy due to the belief that higher serum testosterone causes more rapid prostate cancer growth. Recent evidence has called this paradigm into question. In this study we investigate the effect of testosterone therapy in men with untreated prostate cancer.

Materials and Methods
We report the results of prostate biopsies, serum prostate specific antigen and prostate volume in symptomatic testosterone deficient cases receiving testosterone therapy while undergoing active surveillance for prostate cancer.

Results
A total of 13 symptomatic testosterone deficient men with untreated prostate cancer received testosterone therapy for a median of 2.5 years (range 1.0 to 8.1). Mean age was 58.8 years. Gleason score at initial biopsy was 6 in 12 men and 7 in 1. Mean serum concentration of total testosterone increased from 238 to 664 ng/dl (p <0.001). Mean prostate specific antigen did not change with testosterone therapy (5.5 ± 6.4 vs 3.6 ± 2.6 ng/ml, p = 0.29). Prostate volume was unchanged. Mean number of followup biopsies was 2. No cancer was found in 54% of followup biopsies. Biopsies in 2 men suggested upgrading, and subsequent biopsies in 1 and radical prostatectomy in another indicated no progression. No local prostate cancer progression or distant disease was observed.

*Conclusions
Testosterone therapy in men with untreated prostate cancer was not associated with prostate cancer progression in the short to medium term. These results are consistent with the saturation model, ie maximal prostate cancer growth is achieved at low androgen concentrations. The longstanding prohibition against testosterone therapy in men with untreated or low risk prostate cancer or treated prostate cancer without evidence of metastatic or recurrent disease merits reevaluation.*

http://www.healthnewstrack.com/health-news-2513.html

In an editorial in the journal Cancer, "Turning Conventional Wisdom Upside Down: Low Serum Testosterone and High-Risk Prostate Cancer Morgentaler wrote, "*After seven decades of circumstantial evidence pointing us in the wrong direction, perhaps it is time to consider the once unthinkable -- conducting a testosterone therapy trial of sufficient size and duration to determine whether normalization of serum testosterone in older men may reduce the risk of prostate cancer, particularly high-risk prostate cancer."*

please keep in mind I am not trying to "show off" this is info I had to learn too.

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## zaggahamma

no...appreciate...i will check this out bro

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## pittbulldad

Thats a pretty intersesting article.. I work in cancer therapy and haven't seen that before.. that is certainly a major change in philosphy but can't back down from evidence... however that being said.. looks like it was a small research group they will have to expand it and go outside of low to mid gleason scores to verify.

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## THE-DET-OAK

yes. well keep in mind that is not the only one. there are about 4 others I could put up with the same results. the thing is they were smaller studies with low to medium risk prostate cancer. so although they can be sure it does not increase the risk, to truly say it will reduce the risk they want to do a large scale study on high risk. the biggest most recent one was done in sept of last year, but i was having trouble finding it for some reason.

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## edgarr

I had to change my appointment, will have the digital exam on June 15th. I am hoping that it is an infection. 

Not sure what this means but everytime my PSA is up so is my test levels. Funny thing is, how can anyone that is on TRT and been on it for sometime having any natural test levels? So my guess is that it is not the TEST fueling prostate cancer but the conversion to esto. Will update after my exam.

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## zaggahamma

> I had to change my appointment, will have the digital exam on June 15th. I am hoping that it is an infection. 
> 
> Not sure what this means but everytime my PSA is up so is my test levels. Funny thing is, how can anyone that is on TRT and been on it for sometime *having any natural test levels? So my guess is that it is not the TEST fueling prostate cancer* but the conversion to esto. Will update after my exam.


MY belief was that it was the trt(exo test) that could fuel the cancer NOT NATTY TEST

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## THE-DET-OAK

there is really no diff between exogenous and endogenous test, some believe bio identical has less implications on things like hemo, but the evidence anecdotal. 

There has never EVER been a casual link between testosterone and any type of cancer.

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## pat80flh

Great stuff guys especially DetOaks, thanks for quoting those studies. 

Let me start by answering the question,"Why not just have it out?". Well first off, it's like giving in. Second, I was quoted 70% probability of complete cure. But never ejaculate again. Nor father a child. The ureter must be cut and reattached to the bladder. Possibility of diapers forever. Plus I was put on hold while 6 months worth of tests were run on my ribs. In the end," We don't know if you have bone cancer or not. We may as well take your prostate, just so we'll be doing something." During the interminable testing and retesting, was when I began to investigate alternative healing. They say prostate cancer is slow growing, what do I have to lose by trying?

Beacause my case was unique, I worked my way up the medical food chain, to larger and larger hospitals and every one made me feel like they were trying to sell me a used car. Glossy brochures with glowing reviews of their new DaVinci arthroscope/robot/joystick machine. Every uroligist has one now, they're only 1.7 million. When I asked my second uroligist how many of these surgeries had he done he stopped and said,"One every Thursday sometime two,and every other Tuesday, since I opened here 11 years ago." And he was in a smaller hospital. Tell you what, I'm a mechanic by trade, and if I buy a transmission fluid exchanger, know what I want to sell to every one I can? A nice fluid exchange. That's how I pay for that machine. 

I think my problems stemmed from diet. As a matter of fact, I now believe that the current epidemic of diabetes, prostate/ovarian/breast cancers are a result of the food we eat. I'm not saying that meat is inherently bad , but that modern production of meat has made this food unhealthy. Junk food is designed to leave you hungry and buy more. They took whatever makes cocaine so addictive and put it in Diet Coke. So I'm not eating any meat, poultry,or seafood; trying to purge my body of whatever is stored in my fat. The plan is to starve the cancer out, give it nothing to eat, no sugar or fruit, honey, syrup. No dairy, butter, cheese. Whole grains, fresh vegetables,beans. Actually, there are several doctors out there promoting this diet, (not quite as strict) Dean Ornish is pretty well known. This diet can reverse heart disease. "The China Study", somebody Campbell, is a good book about this.

So I hit it hard at first, quit drinking, diet change, I lost 45 lbs in 60 days, 80 lbs in 6 months. PSA went from 9 down to 5.2. Then life kind of got in the way, quitting drinking spelled doom for my marriage to an alchoholic, less said about that the better. Started procedings, looking for houses, had an epiphany, saw that my old widowed mother was doing poorly, bought a wreck foreclosure cheap, carved out a downstairs bed and bath, moved her in. 6 months later she's got cancer, chemo, just getting over that, broke her hip. About a year into the change I went back to drinking, just a little at first, but while I dealt with this I started to slide, within my dietary limits, but poor choices, too much fat, too many processed foods, crackers, Fritos, coffee. PSA started rising again. And I put on 30 of the 80 pounds I lost.

I'm ready to get after this for real now, I'm off the booze as of the new year. Tightened up the diet. Lost almost 20 pounds since new years. Quit coffee 2 weeks ago. Somethings happening down there, hell I didn't have any symptoms before this started. I think that the reason they never gave you testosterone was because it enlarges the prostate, most men with prostate problems already have an enlarged prostate, when it's enlarged is when you have urinary problems. I figure I've got nothing to lose by trying a little testosterone supplementation, not go crazy, see how it feels, monitor my levels. I don't plan on getting cut any time soon, I'm 3 years in and it's time to shit or go blind.

I don't know why I'm telling you all this. Maybe it will help somebody. All I can say is a healthy body will have a healthy prostate. The human body was designed to kill cancer cells, it just needs to be adjusted right.

I stumbled in here in search of. I didn't find it here , but I found it all right. On the way, just got to get through customs. So we'll see. 
Be well............

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## THE-DET-OAK

amen on the food, shits garbage. they give the animals shit food, they lose nutrients so do we. its a ****ing mess. you guys should read the warrior diet, you would be surprised how much you can control estrogen just with the foods you eat.

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## lovbyts

Pat80flh. It sounds like you make the right choice to wait and change your life. Yes it's easy to get back off track but it sounds like you know what you need to do to get back on. Life gets in the way for all/most of us and you have to just keep on doing what you know you should do. Keep up the good work and it will be easier the 2nd time.

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## THE-DET-OAK

More prostate info. If no one cares feel free to stop me. This was psoted by Scally.




*Shifting The Paradigm Of Testosterone And Prostate Cancer: The Saturation Model And The Limits Of Androgen-Dependent Growth*

For >65 yr, it has been widely accepted that prostate cancer (PCa) growth is dependent on serum testosterone (T) concentrations, based on experiments by Huggins et al, and that castration caused PCa regression, whereas T administration caused more rapid PCa growth. Yet recent studies have shown little or no relationship between serum T concentrations and PCa, making the long-held belief in a T-dependent model of PCa problematic, if not untenable, and. We present here a simple yet critical refinement to the traditional view of T and PCa, namely, that there is a limit to the ability of T to stimulate PCa growth. The Saturation Model presented below is founded on basic biochemical principles of androgen action within the prostate, and it provides a robust framework for understanding the seemingly contradictory sets of results seen with T manipulation.

Defining the relationship between T and PCa is of considerable importance. Not only is androgen deprivation a mainstay of treatment for advanced PCa, but there is also growing interest in T therapy for hypogonadism. Although T therapy has been shown to improve sexual function, bone density, and body composition, none of these benefits might be worthwhile if T therapy increased the risk of PCa.

The Saturation Model has been introduced previously; in this paper, we present the model in full, together with supporting evidence from human and laboratory studies. In brief, the Saturation Model accounts for the key observation that PCa growth is exquisitely sensitive to variation in serum T concentrations at or below the near-castrate range and is insensitive to T variations above this concentration. This model postulates that physiologic concentrations of T provide an excess of T and its intracellular prostatic metabolite, 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), for optimal prostatic growth requirements. However, reducing T concentration below a critical concentration threshold (the Saturation Point) creates an intracellular milieu in which the availability of androgen becomes the rate-limiting step governing prostate tissue growth. This model is based on evidence that binding of androgen to the androgen receptor (AR) follows a similar saturation curve. We believe this simple model has important ramifications for clinical medicine and basic science research.


Morgentaler A, Traish AM. *Shifting the paradigm of testosterone and prostate cancer: the saturation model and the limits of androgen-dependent growth.* Eur Urol 2009;55(2):310-20. Shifting the Paradigm of Testosterone and Prostate Cancer: The Saturation Model and the Limits of Androgen-Dependent Growth - European Urology 
http://www.europeanurology.com/artic...838(08)01124-X




CONTEXT: The traditional belief that prostate cancer (PCa) growth is dependent on serum testosterone (T) level has been challenged by recent negative studies in noncastrated men. 

OBJECTIVE: To provide an improved framework for understanding the relationship of PCa to serum T level that is consistent with current evidence and is based on established biochemical principles of androgen action within the prostate. 

EVIDENCE ACQUISITION: A literature search was performed of publications dating from 1941 to 2008 that addressed experimental and clinical effects of androgens on prostate growth. Review of studies investigating the prostatic effects of manipulation of androgen concentrations in human and animal studies, and in PCa cell lines. 

EVIDENCE SYNTHESIS: Prostate growth is exquisitely sensitive to variations in androgen concentrations at very low concentrations, but becomes insensitive to changes in androgen concentrations at higher levels. This pattern is consistent with the observation that androgens exert their prostatic effects primarily via binding to the androgen receptor (AR), and that maximal androgen-AR binding is achieved at serum T concentrations well below the physiologic range. A Saturation Model is proposed that accounts for the seemingly contradictory results in human PCa studies. Changes in serum T concentrations below the point of maximal androgen-AR binding will elicit substantial changes in PCa growth, as seen with castration, or with T administration to previously castrated men. In contrast, once maximal androgen-AR binding is reached the presence of additional androgen produces little further effect. 

CONCLUSIONS: The evidence clearly indicates that there is a limit to the ability of androgens to stimulate PCa growth. A Saturation Model based on androgen-AR binding provides a satisfactory conceptual framework to account for the dramatic effects seen with castration as well as the minor impact of T administration in noncastrated men.


Tombal B. Editorial comment on: *Shifting the paradigm of testosterone and prostate cancer: the saturation model and the limits of androgen-dependent growth.* Eur Urol 2009;55(2):321. Editorial Comment on: Shifting the Paradigm of Testosterone and Prostate Cancer: The Saturation Model and the Limits of Androgen-Dependent Growth - European Urology

http://www.europeanurology.com/artic...838(08)01129-9

In Roman mythology, Janus was the god of gates and doors. He was usually depicted with two heads looking in opposite directions and was frequently used to symbolize changes and transitions, such as the progression from one vision to another. This idea perfectly illustrates the saturation model proposed by Morgentaler and Traish in the current issue of European Urology.

Indeed, many of us still regard testosterone through Charles Huggins's eyes and consider it to be a key promoter of prostate cancer progression only because its abrupt suppression induces metastatic prostate cancer to shrink. But is this view enough to sustain our common-sense understanding that testosterone promotes or even causes prostate cancer?

Although urologists still diabolize testosterone, endocrinologists, rheumatologists, and cardiologists attract more and more of our attention to its virtues, especially with regard to metabolic and cardiovascular health.

This paradigm is an interesting one for the physician counseling a man who was successfully treated for localized prostate cancer and who suffers from late-onset hypogonadism. What puts him more at risk: a high-testosterone-promoting cancer or a low-testosterone-promoting cardiovascular disease? Considering the extensive use of hormone therapy in early prostate cancer, it seems that urologists have some difficulties seeing the man around the prostate, although they should be aware of the lack of efficacy in that setting.

Morgentaler and Traish's saturation model provides a nice rational background in which to move away from our unwarranted fear of testosterone in prostate cancer. This article should help urologists to understand that treating middle-age men with localized disease requires getting rid of those fears and developing a holistic view of men's health that encompasses balancing the risks and benefits of adjusting testosterone to normal values.

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## THE-DET-OAK

this is an article talking about the study Morgentaler did after his theory. also posted by Scally. I think the article is dated april 11th of this year.


*Revisiting Testosterone Tx in Prostate Ca*
Medical News: Revisiting Testosterone Tx in Prostate Ca - in Oncology, Prostate Cancer from MedPage Today

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryC...tiveCare/26104

Men with low-risk prostate cancer and symptomatic hypogonadism had no evidence of cancer progression during long-term testosterone therapy , results of a small clinical trial showed.

Neither the mean PSA level nor prostate volume changed significantly during testosterone treatment that continued for as long as eight years, according to Abraham Morgentaler, MD, of Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, and colleagues.

Cancer biopsies in two men suggested cancer upgrading, but subsequent biopsy in one patient and radical prostatectomy in the other showed no evidence of progression.

The findings support the saturation hypothesis, which postulates that maximal prostate cancer growth occurs with low-level androgen stimulation, and higher levels elicit little or no additional growth, the researchers wrote in the April issue of the Journal of Urology.

"There has been a scare about testosterone for about 70 years that somehow it is a fuel for the fire in prostate cancer," Morgentaler said in an interview. "It's clear that's not the case.

"This study, although it's small, is the first time anyone has ever bothered to give testosterone and see what's happening in a prostate that has cancer."

Testosterone therapy has several beneficial effects in men with testosterone deficiency, including improvement in fatigue, libido, and sexual function. However, concern about potential stimulatory effects on prostate cancer has limited use of the hormonal therapy, Morgentaler and co-authors noted in the introduction to their findings.

The concern has its origin in observations that androgen deprivation slows prostate cancer progression, as reflected in decreased serum PSA, and that normalization of testosterone in androgen-deprived men raises PSA levels.

Though modest and circumstantial, the evidence has supported a traditional ban on testosterone therapy in men with a history of prostate cancer. When asked to write a review of the issue several years ago, Morgentaler and his co-authors were stunned to find no published clinical data to support a prohibition of testosterone in men with prostate cancer.

Subsequently, Morgentaler found a single article, published in 1941 by future Nobel Prize winner Charles Huggins and colleague Clarence Hodges of the University of Chicago (Cancer Res. 1941; 1: 293-297). The article detailed the effects of various interventions on acid phosphatase levels in men with metastatic prostate cancer, including three men who received testosterone injections.

Huggins and Hodges reported data for two of the three men, one of whom had been surgically castrated before getting testosterone.

"The general idea -- that adding testosterone to an otherwise relatively normal guy with or without prostate cancer will make the cancer grow -- is based on one individual," said Morgentaler.

More recently, results from several small studies have called into question the traditional paradigm of testosterone prohibition in men with prostate cancer. The studies, which collectively involved about 100 men with definitively treated prostate cancer and testosterone deficiency, showed no evidence of biochemical recurrence during treatment with testosterone for as long as 12 years.

With that clinical and scientific background, Morgentaler and co-authors examined the effects of testosterone therapy in 13 men with untreated prostate cancer undergoing active surveillance. The men had a mean age of 59, mean PSA value of 5.5 ng/mL, mean testosterone concentration of 238 ng/mL, and all but one had a biopsy Gleason score of 6 (one patient with Gleason 7).

After a median treatment duration of 2.5 years, the group's testosterone values averaged 664 ng/dL (P<0.001).

Mean PSA level declined to 3.6 ng/mL, which did not differ significantly from baseline. Prostate volume also did not change.

The men had an average of two prostate biopsies during follow-up, and 54% of specimens had no evidence of cancer.

Limitations of the study included its small size, retrospective design, inclusion of some men who had prostate cancer diagnosed after the start of testosterone therapy, and lack of generalizability to those with higher grade or higher volume disease.

On the basis of the results, the longstanding prohibition against testosterone therapy in men with untreated or low-risk prostate cancer merits re-evaluation, the authors wrote in conclusion.

Use of testosterone therapy by prostate cancer patients should be guided by an individual patient's testosterone level and any associated symptoms, said Morgentaler.

"To be a candidate for testosterone therapy, one needs to have symptoms and a low level of testosterone confirmed by blood testing," he said.

"In terms of giving it to men with a history of prostate cancer, the main impediment at this point is that there still are no large, long-term studies that can give us the bounds of safety data on this."

Before starting testosterone therapy, each of his patients must sign a consent form that spells out the unknown risks associated with the hormonal therapy, Morgentaler added.


*Prognosis: Testosterone and Prostate Cancer*
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/he...er=rss&emc=rss

By NICHOLAS BAKALAR

Doctors have long held that men with prostate cancer should not be given testosterone because the hormone might fuel tumor growth. But a small study adds to evidence that the fear may be overblown, at least in patients without evidence of recurrent or metastatic disease.

Researchers studied 13 men with scores of 6 or 7 on the 10-point Gleason scale, indicating mildly to moderately aggressive prostate cancer. They all initially chose watchful waiting rather than treatment for their cancers. All the men had low testosterone .

The men received testosterone therapy for an average of two and a half years, and had periodic prostate biopsies. None of their cancers progressed or spread to other organs. One subject whose score had increased to 7 from 6 had his prostate removed, but the final pathological exam found no aggressive disease.

The authors acknowledge that the study, published in the April issue The Journal of Urology, was small and retrospective. Still, it is the first to use biopsies to monitor the effects of testosterone in men with untreated, localized prostate cancer.

The lead author, Dr. Abraham Morgentaler, an associate clinical professor of surgery at Harvard, said that the findings of this and other recent studies suggest that the risks of testosterone therapy may have been exaggerated



I did find one that has a completely different view if you guys would like to see the other side of the story.

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## zaggahamma

thank you you are making my thread an even greater one...keeping it up current...hope youve made your peace in the aas forums cuz youve added a lot to the hrt forum

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## THE-DET-OAK

thanks bro, but i dont know if everyone likes me yet lol one day at a time i guess.

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## Jupiter2

Ok gang, been some time since I've been able to contribute here... life sometimes throws you curve balls, but I do still find the time to read the forums.

Regarding the matter of prostate cancer I would consider myself high risk since it runs quite strongly in my family. But all my research on the subject seems to provide evidence that Testosterone is not the culprit. As one authority on the subject put it: "How many males between the ages of 12 and 40 develop prostate cancer?" He feels, as do I at this point that higher testosterone levels provide a protective benefit to the body, and that declining levels give way to estrogen dominance which may be the real culprit.

Another school of thought puts DHT as being highly suspect which may be why saw palmetto (DHT blocker) has appeared to be beneficial in some studies. Recently, I've been looking into the possibility the Progesterone supplementation may be the miracle hormone that men are looking for with regard to this issue, and I encourage you folks who are staring prostate cancer in the face to do your own research regarding it.

One of the most interesting things I've ever read about prostate cancer was this: "Virtually every man by the time he is 80 has it, but he is far more likely to die from a cause other than that illness (ex. heart attack). As a matter of fact in many cases it will remain undiagnosed, but in those that are discovered advanced age means the risk of surgery is greater than the potential benefit provided given the general slow progression of the cancer." You can look at that statement any number of ways but in my mind, that is some lackey speaking on behalf of an insurance industry that has no interest in approving a surgery and a number of expensive followup visits for someone who may die of a heart attack (ie., natural causes) next week!

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## THE-DET-OAK

hey jupiter i alos thought about the DHT thing, well they believe that isnt it either, check this out:

and lastly the DHT theory. got all this info from Dr. Scally post's BTW.

“Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) treatment for 24 months does not affect prostate growth, but causes a decrease in spinal, but not hip, bone mineral density (BMD)," Australian researchers found after evaluating 114 men for two years. "Every six months, blood samples and questionnaires were collected, prostate volume was measured with ultrasonography, and BMD and body composition were measured with dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry," according to the paper in the Annals of Internal Medicine. "Compared with placebo, DHT reduced lumbar spine BMD (1.4%; 95% CI, 0.6% - 2.3%; P < .001) at 24 months but not hip BMD (P > .2) and increased serum aminoterminal propeptide of type I procollagen in the second year of the study." 


Dihydrotestosterone May Not Affect Prostate Growth But May Reduce BMD
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/732585

November 16, 2010 — Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) treatment for 24 months does not affect prostate growth but causes a decrease in spinal, but not hip, bone mineral density (BMD), according to the results of a randomized, placebo-controlled, parallel-group trial reported in the November 16 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine.

"Benign prostatic hypertrophy increases with age and can result in substantially decreased quality of life for older men," write Amanda Idan, BSc, MHSc, from Concord Hospital, ANZAC Research Institute, University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia, and colleagues. "Surgery is often required to control symptoms. It has been hypothesized that long-term administration of a nonamplifiable pure androgen might decrease prostate growth, thereby decreasing or delaying the need for surgical intervention."

At an ambulatory care research center, 114 healthy men older than 50 years without known prostate disease were randomly assigned to receive transdermal DHT (70 mg) or placebo gel daily for 2 years. Every 6 months, blood samples and questionnaires were collected, prostate volume was measured with ultrasonography, and BMD and body composition were measured with dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry. Data were analyzed by mixed-model analysis for repeated measures.

With time on study, there was an increase during 24 months in total prostate volume (29%; 95% confidence interval [CI], 23% - 34%), central prostate volume (75%; 95% CI, 64% - 86%; P < .01), and serum prostate–specific antigen level (PSA; 15%; 95% CI, 6% - 24%). However, DHT had no effect on these changes (P > .2).

Compared with placebo, DHT reduced lumbar spine BMD (1.4%; 95% CI, 0.6% - 2.3%; P < .001) at 24 months but not hip BMD (P > .2) and increased serum aminoterminal propeptide of type I procollagen in the second year of the study. In the DHT group, levels of serum DHT and its metabolites were increased, whereas serum testosterone , estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels were suppressed. DHT increased hemoglobin levels (7%; 95% CI, 5% - 9%), serum creatinine levels (9%; 95% CI, 5% - 11%), and lean mass (2.4%; 95% CI, 1.6% - 3.1%) but reduced fat mass (5.2%; 95% CI, 2.6% - 7.7%; P < .001 for all).

DHT was not associated with any serious adverse effects but did cause some protocol-specific discontinuations. These were asymptomatic increased hematocrit levels in 8 patients, which resolved after treatment was stopped, and increased PSA levels in 3 patients, none of whom had prostate cancer.

"Negative findings on prostate growth cannot exclude adverse effects on the natural history of prostate cancer," the study authors write. "Dihydrotestosterone treatment for 24 months has no beneficial or adverse effect on prostate growth but causes a decrease in spinal but not hip BMD. These findings have important implications for the wider use of nonsteroidal pure androgens in older men."

In an accompanying editorial, Ronald S. Swerdloff, MD, from Harbor–University of California, Los Angeles, and Christina Wang, MD, from David Geffen School of Medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles, note that this study was not adequately powered to definitively answer the question of long-term safety of testosterone use.

"These data do show that a 10-fold increase in serum DHT levels had no significant effects on prostate size, serum DHT, and International Prostate Symptom Score, suggesting that the modest increases of serum DHT seen after testosterone treatment may not have a clinically significant effect on prostate health," Drs. Swerdloff and Wang write. "Idan and colleagues argue that their findings provide insight about the potential efficacy of future synthetic androgen receptor modulators that will likely share (with DHT) the anabolic effects on muscle and fat, as well as the sparing effects on the prostate. However, we caution that each synthetic androgen-receptor modulator could have a different target organ profile. We conclude that DHT acts as a hormone in tissues without high concentrations of 5α-reductase enzymes but mainly in an autocrine–paracrine manner in tissues like the prostate, in which 5α-reductase is abundant."

BHR Pharma supported this study. Some of the study authors have disclosed various financial relationships with BHR Pharma, Bayer Schering, Ascend/Besins, and/or Radius and Clarus Therapeutics. Drs. Swerdloff and Wang have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.



Idan A, Griffiths KA, Harwood DT, et al. Long-Term Effects of Dihydrotestosterone Treatment on Prostate Growth in Healthy, Middle-Aged Men Without Prostate Disease. Annals of Internal Medicine 2010;153(10):621-32. Long-Term Effects of Dihydrotestosterone Treatment on Prostate Growth in Healthy, Middle-Aged Men Without Prostate Disease — Ann Intern Med

Background: Benign prostatic hypertrophy increases with age and can result in substantially decreased quality of life for older men. Surgery is often required to control symptoms. It has been hypothesized that long-term administration of a nonamplifiable pure androgen might decrease prostate growth, thereby decreasing or delaying the need for surgical intervention.

Objective: To test the hypothesis that dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a nonamplifiable and nonaromatizable pure androgen, reduces late-life prostate growth in middle-aged men.

Design: Randomized, placebo-controlled, parallel-group trial. (Australian New Zealand Clinical Trials Registry number: ACTRN12605000358640)

Setting: Ambulatory care research center.

Participants: Healthy men (n = 114) older than 50 years without known prostate disease.

Intervention: Transdermal DHT (70 mg) or placebo gel daily for 2 years.

Measurements: Prostate volume was measured by ultrasonography; bone mineral density (BMD) and body composition were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry; and blood samples and questionnaires were collected every 6 months, with data analyzed by mixed-model analysis for repeated measures.

Results: Over 24 months, there was an increase in total (29% [95% CI, 23% to 34%]) and central (75% [CI, 64% to 86%]; P < 0.01) prostate volume and serum prostate-specific antigen level (15% [CI, 6% to 24%]) with time on study, but DHT had no effect (P > 0.2). Dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased spinal BMD (1.4% [CI, 0.6% to 2.3%]; P < 0.001) at 24 months but not hip BMD (P > 0.2) and increased serum aminoterminal propeptide of type I procollagen in the second year of the study compared with placebo. Dihydrotestosterone increased serum DHT levels and its metabolites (5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol and 5α-androstane-3β,17β-diol) and suppressed serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels. Dihydrotestosterone increased hemoglobin levels (7% [CI, 5% to 9%]), serum creatinine levels (9% [CI, 5% to 11%]), and lean mass (2.4% [CI, 1.6% to 3.1%) but decreased fat mass (5.2% [CI, 2.6% to 7.7%]) (P <0.001 for all). Protocol-specific discontinuations due to DHT were asymptomatic increased hematocrit (n = 8), which resolved after stopping treatment, and increased prostate-specific antigen levels (n = 3; none with prostate cancer) in the DHT group. No serious adverse effects due to DHT occurred.

Limitation: Negative findings on prostate growth cannot exclude adverse effects on the natural history of prostate cancer.

Conclusion: Dihydrotestosterone treatment for 24 months has no beneficial or adverse effect on prostate growth but causes a decrease in spinal but not hip BMD. These findings have important implications for the wider use of nonsteroidal pure androgens in older men.

Primary Funding Source: BHR Pharma.

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## Jupiter2

Det, thanks for the reply and the inclusion of strong supporting evidence. Definitely good news on the one hand, not so good on the other eh, lol. I guess most of the indications then are that estrogen is the real culprit which makes sense since declining testosterone and rising estrogen levels begin in mid-life, which is when coincidentally the risk of prostate cancer becomes an issue.

Curious to know what you come up with regarding progesterone and this subject since your research skills appear to be exemplary.  :Big Grin:

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## THE-DET-OAK

lol-thanks. I will def look into it, maybe you could expand a lil on how you think it would beneifit?? hopefully this will point me in the right direction.

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## Jupiter2

This just one of the many articles I've read concerning the issue. Grabbed it quickly as I'm on my way to work but it should provide you with some reference-able data. Dr. John Lee was the recognized authority. My understanding is that since his demise the research he conducted is being continued by other established medical authorities.

PROGESTERONE FOR PROSTATE HEALTH
By James South, M.A.

For middle-aged and older men, especially those over age 50, prostate problems are an unpleasant fact of life. It is estimated that half of men in the 50-plus age group suffer from benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), an abnormal enlargement of the prostate gland.1

This swelling of the prostate usually manifests as urinary problems: urinary frequency, urinary hesitation, reduced urinary flow, etc. The prostate gland is also the most common site for cancer to develop, with over 300,000 new cases in the U.S. in 1996.1 The medical establishment places the blame for these prostate problems on the male hormones testosterone (T) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT), yet this belief generates an obvious paradox. The highest levels of T/DHT occur in young men, and T/DHT levels drop with aging. Yet prostate problems are almost non-existent in young men, while they increase with age, affecting 90 percent of all men by age 85, when T/DHT levels are extremely low.2

The Estrogen Connection
An important determinant of male hormonal health is the testosterone/estrogen balance (T/E). Healthy male physiology depends on a high T:E ratio. Although testosterone is the “male hormone,” men naturally produce small amounts of estrogen from testosterone.3 With aging, the T:E ratio drops, often dramatically. An enzyme called “aromatase,” especially prevalent in fat cells, converts testosterone to estrogen.4 Since most men lose muscle and gain fat as they age, aromatase activity increases, reducing testosterone even as it increases estrogen. Many scientists have commented on the importance of estrogen and the T:E ratio in promoting prostate problems. M. Krieg and colleagues note “…numerous experiments indicate that estrogens might also be involved in the abnormal growth of the human prostate.”5 “The data in this communication show a clear-cut, direct biochemical effect of estrogens on the human prostate and provide a cellular mechanism by which estrogens may affect prostatic physiology [negatively].”2

In a review on benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) and estrogen, W. Farnsworth reports that “…the induction of BPH is shown to be determined by the androgen [T+DHT]/estrogen ratio….”6 S. Boehm and coworkers conclude that “… estrogen suppression may be considered an efficient pharmacotherapeutic strategy in the medical treatment of uncomplicated benign prostatic hyperplasia.”7

Progesterone to the Rescue
Most people think of progesterone as a “female hormone.” Yet men normally produce progesterone as well, in both their adrenal and testicular tissue.8 Unfortunately, male progesterone levels drop with aging, just as do male testosterone levels .4 Severe, prolonged stress also depletes progesterone, since the “state-of-siege” stress hormone cortisol is made from progesterone, as are testosterone, estrogen, aldosterone and other steroid hormones.8

And as researcher Ray Peat emphasizes, one of the most important roles for progesterone is to oppose the many toxic effects of excess estrogen.9 Progesterone expert Dr. John Lee noted multiple roles for progesterone in antagonizing estrogen and promoting prostate health.

Progesterone inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT.4 DHT is a weaker androgen than testosterone, and thus lowers the androgen/estrogen ratio in favor of estrogen. In addition, DHT is a far more potent stimulant of prostate cell growth than testosterone.4 Both testosterone and progesterone stimulate the activity of a protective gene called “p53.”4 The products of this gene activation are anti-cancer, and promote healthy apoptosis.10 Apoptosis is a “programmed cell suicide” that plays a key role in preventing cellular overgrowth (e.g., BPH) and cancer.10 Estrogen, on the other hand, activates a gene called “bcl2.”4 Bcl2 products inhibit healthy apoptosis.10

Progesterone may even help with prostate cancer. V. Petrow et al reported results of their study with rats and prostate cancer in 1984. “Growth of the Dunning R 3327-H prostatic adenocarcinoma, implanted in the rat, is inhibited by 6-methylene progesterone. This compound is a potent inhibitor of rat prostatic 5-alpha-reductase [as is progesterone; 5-alpha-reductase is the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT] and in-vivo produced marked involution [shrinkage] of the prostate. Thus, this tumor requires dihydrotestosterone and not testosterone for growth.”11 Andrews and colleagues also
note: “Another steroid hormone that interacts with the androgen receptor in LNCaP [prostate cancer] cells (progesterone) also promotes apoptosis of these cells.”12

Progesterone for Men
Dr. John Lee has recommended a dose of approximately 4 to 6 mg once or twice daily for men in their late forties or older.4,13 Approximately 6 mg can be achieved with one-eighth level teaspoon of a cream containing 900 to 1,000 mg progesterone per 2 ounces. The cream should be rubbed onto thin skin areas such as inner forearm, chest, neck or scrotum morning and/or evening. Do not exceed the recommended dose.

Progesterone therapy is especially relevant for obese men; those with a family history of prostate cancer; those with proven low androgen/low progesterone/high estrogen levels. Progesterone may reduce fertility in men,14 and it is to be avoided by men with nonalcoholic liver cirrhosis.15

References
1. Wright, J. and Lenard, L. Maximize Your Vitality and Potency, Petaluma, CA: SMART Publications™, 1999: 158.
2. Nakhla, A. et al. “Estradiol causes the rapid accumulation of cAMP in human prostate.” Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1994, 91: 5402-05.
3. Kutsky, R. Handbook of Vitamins, Minerals and Hormones, NYC: Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1981: 418-19.
4. Lee, J. “Prostate disease and hormones.” The John R. Lee, M.D. Medical Letter Feb. 2002.
5. Krieg, M. et al. “Effect of aging on endogenous level of 5 a-dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, estradiol, and estrone in epithelium and stroma of normal and hyperplastic human prostate.” J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1993, 77: 375-81.
6. Farnsworth, W. “Estrogen in the etiopathogenesis of BPH.” Prostate, 1999, 41: 263-74.
7. Boehm, S. et al. “Estrogen suppression as a pharmacotherapeutic strategy in the medical treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia: evidence for its efficacy from studies with mepartricin.” Wien Klin Wochenschr 1998, 110: 817-23.
8. Kutsky, op. cit. 427-28.
9. Peat, R. Progesterone in Orthomolecular Medicine Eugene, OR, 1993: 4-6.
10. Hetts, S. “To die or not to die: an overview of apoptosis and its role in disease.” JAMA 1998, 279: 300-07.
11. Petrow, V. “Endocrine dependence of prostatic cancer upon dihydrotestosterone and not upon testosterone.” J Pharmacol 1984, 36: 352-3.
12. Andrews, P. et al. “Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) modulates the ability of NSAIDs to induce apoptosis of prostate cancer cells.” Cancer Chemother Pharmacol 2002, 49: 179-86.
13. Mercola, J. “Progesterone cream can help prostate cancer.” 1998. www.mercola.com/fcgi/pf/1998/ archive/natural_progesterone2.htm.
14. deLarminat, M. and Blaquier, J. “Effect of in vivo administration of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors on epididymal function.” Acta Physiol Lat Am 1979, 29:1-6.
15. Farthing, M. et al. “Progesterone, prolactin, and gynecomastia in men with liver disease.” Gut 1982, 23: 276-79.

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## zaggahamma

> Ok gang, been some time since I've been able to contribute here... life sometimes throws you curve balls, but I do still find the time to read the forums.
> 
> Regarding the matter of prostate cancer I would consider myself high risk since it runs quite strongly in my family. But all my research on the subject seems to provide evidence that Testosterone is not the culprit. As one authority on the subject put it: "How many males between the ages of 12 and 40 develop prostate cancer?" He feels, as do I at this point that higher testosterone levels provide a protective benefit to the body, and that declining levels give way to estrogen dominance which may be the real culprit.
> 
> Another school of thought puts DHT as being highly suspect which may be why saw palmetto (DHT blocker) has appeared to be beneficial in some studies. Recently, I've been looking into the possibility the Progesterone supplementation may be the miracle hormone that men are looking for with regard to this issue, and I encourage you folks who are staring prostate cancer in the face to do your own research regarding it.
> 
> *One of the most interesting things I've ever read about prostate cancer was this: "Virtually every man by the time he is 80 has it, but he is far more likely to die from a cause other than that illness (ex. heart attack). As a matter of fact in many cases it will remain undiagnosed, but in those that are discovered advanced age means the risk of* surgery is greater than the potential benefit provided given the general slow progression of the cancer." You can look at that statement any number of ways but in my mind, that is some lackey speaking on behalf of an insurance industry that has no interest in approving a surgery and a number of expensive followup visits for someone who may die of a heart attack (ie., natural causes) next week!


that is one of the things i read and never forgot regarding prostate

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## THE-DET-OAK

Study shows 6 cups of coffee a day may reduce your risk of prostate cancer.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/healthsci...state-Cancer-/

having trouble finding current clinical data on progesterone treatment. newest drug I can find is one that directs your immune system to fight the cancer.

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## JD250

Good stuff, if drinking 6 cups of coffee a day reduces risk of prostate cancer by 60%.......shit man....I'm good to go. Of course I'll prolly end up with something else caused by those 6 cups a day.

Sorry for hijacking, been reading along and there is some great info here, thanks guys.

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## THE-DET-OAK

your actually right, there are some negatives to drinking that much coffe

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## zaggahamma

i drink about 3-5 cups a day since a cup is what 8 oz? so sounds like i need to kick it up a notch

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## JD250

I need to back off a notch......maybe I'll send you some of my coffee beans.  :Smilie:

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## flatscat

lots of good personal experience and clinical info here - good read when you have time. Seeing we have had a couple of psa questions lately.

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## edgarr

> I had to change my appointment, will have the digital exam on June 15th. I am hoping that it is an infection. 
> 
> Not sure what this means but everytime my PSA is up so is my test levels. Funny thing is, how can anyone that is on TRT and been on it for sometime having any natural test levels? So my guess is that it is not the TEST fueling prostate cancer but the conversion to esto. Will update after my exam.


So I never got the digital exam. My new ddoctor wanted to test again in 3 months and I just did....my PSA is now 1.3! He thinks that is just fine. not sure why it would go up or down?? I'm not taking anything or doing anything different. Well now we are talking about starting TEST again in GEL form. So do you guys think that is a good idea? He wants to see how I react. I still have ZERO issues, if anything its some fequent urination but I drink a lot of water.

Sorry should point out that 1.3 is down from 2.7

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## bass

> So I never got the digital exam. My new ddoctor wanted to test again in 3 months and I just did....my PSA is now 1.3! He thinks that is just fine. not sure why it would go up or down?? I'm not taking anything or doing anything different. Well now we are talking about starting TEST again in GEL form. So do you guys think that is a good idea? He wants to see how I react. I still have ZERO issues, if anything its some fequent urination but I drink a lot of water.
> 
> Sorry should point out that 1.3 is down from 2.7


this is great news! i guess your body is simply adjusting to the hormones...

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## kinopal

Ñàìûå ñâåæèå *ôèëüìû áåñïëàòíî* òîëüêî ó íàñ! 
Íà íàøåì ñàéòå http://kino-palace.ru/ Âû ìîæåòå *ñìîòðåòü îíëàéí êèíî* â êà÷åñòâå HD. 
*Ôèëüìû íîâèíêè, ôèëüìû áåñïëàòíî*...æäåì Âàñ! 
ñìîòðåòü îíëàéí êèíî íà íàøåì ñàéòå 

http://kino-palace.ru/

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## kelkel

Incredible thread! Long read but well worth it. Edgarr if your going to gel, get the new 1.62% androgel . Good luck!

Here's the gel insert: http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/androgel1_62_PI.pdf

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## zaggahamma

> Incredible thread! Long read but well worth it. Edgarr if your going to gel, get the new 1.62% androgel . Good luck!
> 
> Here's the gel insert: http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/androgel1_62_PI.pdf


 yup the good ole days

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## kinopal

Ñàìûå ñâåæèå ôèëüìû áåñïëàòíî òîëüêî ó íàñ! 
Íà íàøåì ñàéòå http://kino-palace.ru Âû ìîæåòå ñìîòðåòü îíëàéí êèíî â êà÷åñòâå HD. 
Ôèëüìû íîâèíêè, ôèëüìû áåñïëàòíî...æäåì Âàñ! 

http://kino-palace.ru/

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## edgarr

So thinking of going on the Gel Axrion and re testing my PSA after 6 months of that to see what it does. If it goes up then I guess it is safe to say that it is the TEST fueling it but what then???

So now PSA is 1.3
TEST is 313 (not horrible)

A little concerned that my white blood cell count is 7.1 (scale is 3.8-10.8). Any concerns there?

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## Fred40

> So thinking of going on the Gel Axrion and re testing my PSA after 6 months of that to see what it does. If it goes up then I guess it is safe to say that it is the TEST fueling it but what then???
> 
> So now PSA is 1.3
> TEST is 313 (not horrible)
> 
> A little concerned that my white blood cell count is 7.1 (scale is 3.8-10.8). Any concerns there?


1.3 is ok as long as it's not increasing. Going up a little with TEST is normal but if it doubles you will want to get it check out.

313 is .....well....not good. Are you having symptoms? Ideal would be above 650 for most.

What is your FREE T and E2?

Can't help you on the white cell count.

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## zaggahamma

white cell count is well in range? where did the concern of that come from?????? dont be

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## edgarr

> white cell count is well in range? where did the concern of that come from?????? dont be


the range of 3.8-10.8. Doc says its fine. Going to write a scprit for Axrion

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## lvs

I had good luck with Axiron. On 2-pumps per day at Total Test was 1038 and Free-T at 31, just a tad above the upper normal range. It dries quickly, is not sticky, and has nice viral smell to it. I had one bad side-effect, nasopharyngitis, and had to change.

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