# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS > EDUCATIONAL THREADS >  The ultimate LIVER thread and info on orals and ORAL TOXICITY!!

## Atomini

This post might deserve a sticky, seeing as though there is no definitive post around here concerning liver health and oral C17 alpha alkylated anabolics. No post stating what specifically happens inside the liver when C7AA steroids are consumed, what they do inside, what happens over prolonged periods, and what is the best thing to do and take in order to solve the problem. The answers to all of these questions have recently piqued my interest because in one of my biochemistry courses, we just so happen to be covering certain aspects of liver function and the biochemical processes that occur inside it. We specifically touched upon the use of ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) for regulating proper liver function (specifically, BILE FLOW) in the midst of liver damage from things like alcohol, hepatitis C, etc. I also ran into a small issue post-cycle that I thought may have been a liver issue (lucky it doesn't seem like it was), and that caused me to look further into this. Some or much of this information may already be known, but I feel the need to spread word about it and post this here to educate people who might be asking the same questions.

I'm a really busy guy, and I don't have very much time to take everything I have read and conjure it up into my own words here. So, to save time, I am simply going to copy and paste my findings from other sources into this post, and provide references to them.

I am, for the most part, going to just copy and paste a whole post I already made in a previous thread I posted in where a forum member was asking about liver protection, oral anabolics, etc. where I explained everything to him. Here it is, folks:

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I want to start off by saying this: milk thistle is garbage. TUDCA (Tauroursodeoxycholic acid) is quite literally the primary and ONLY liver protectant people should be using if they are taking C17 Alpha Alkylated oral anabolic steroids. I think that Liv 52 is okay to use as well. But, if you could only pick ONE product and throw the rest away, I would say TAKE THE TUDCA!!!! Research has shown that it is the ONLY thing that is effective at treating anabolic steroid SPECIFIC induced cholestasis of the liver. Off the top of my head, one company that makes a product with TUDCA in it is Thermolife in their Liver Longer supplement, but they have seemed to be out of stock for a long while now. I know it is possible to pick up generic TUDCA if you look hard enough online. Just google it!

If you can find TUDCA elsewhere, get it as soon as you can.

As a matter of fact, using a liver support supplement such as TUDCA may even INCREASE the oral absorption and bioavailability of the steroid because it prevents cholestasis of the liver. You have to understand what happens in the liver when you use C17 alkylated orals. Cholestasis is defined as an impairment of bile flow in the liver. I don't know if you remember your highschool biology class, but bile is an extremely important component of the liver and of our body, because bile serves dual purposes:

1. In a way, it acts as a waste removal sewage fluid for the liver. All of the byproducts (not all necessarily bad, but stuff that your liver needs to remove on a regular basis or else it will harm the liver from an unhealthy buildup) that your liver creates from all the work it does in metabolizing a bazillion billion different things every day, gets collected as bile. In turn, bile salts really 'clean' the liver out.

2. Bile and the bile salts within it are very important to our digestion, especially of fats. It's stored in the gall bladder and then pumped into your duodenum (upper section of your small intestine) when you eat food to aid in digestion, as it assists in the breakdown of fats and such.

Now, in a nutshell, what happens when your liver gets 'damaged' from oral steroids is: (and i'm not going to get into the specific chemistry of it for ease of explanation to the layman) the liver is overloaded from processing the C17 alkylation on the anabolic steroid you are ingesting. What happens as a result is that it causes a slow down of bile flow in the liver, because the liver is getting so overloaded with the processes it is trying to undergo. The impairment of bile flow in the liver is known as cholestasis, and is a direct result of C17 alkylated steroid use . When bile flow is slowed down too much (or has outright STOPPED), the bile salts, which are very toxic to the liver cells, will start to damage those liver cells. The key idea here is *BILE FLOW*, and you'll see this repeated a lot in this post! The liver needs to keep churning bile through itself in all of its cells in order to clean out the metabolites resulting from all of the biochemical processes it's doing every second!

I don't have much time on me, so for further explanation I am going to quote a couple articles I found that explain in more detail what TUDCA does and how it literally is the ONLY liver support compound that is useful, to a much larger degree than anything else, at combating cholestasis:




> A few words on the hepatotoxicity of 17a-methylated androgens/anabolics 
> 1. 17a-methylated androgens/anabolics are hepatotoxic.
> The liver toxicity of steroids is an under-researched field, but there seems to be a strong correlation between how easily the body can metabolize a steroid & its toxicity. Metribolone -- a truly excessively toxic compound -- is often referred to in the literature as a 'non-metabolizable androgen'. (1, 2, 3, etc.) Mibolerone , another deadly-toxic anabolic steroid, is also effectively 'non-metabolizable': The main metabolite of mibolerone in humans is... unchanged mibolerone. And by a very wide margin. 
> 
> Methylstenbolone, which is resistant to 17b-HSD and 3b-HSD, is obviously difficult for the body to clear. It should therefore be no safer, no less toxic, than Superdrol or M1T -- compounds which share very similar traits. 
> 
> 
> 2. Liver injury due to oral anabolic use typically manifests itself as cholestasis.
> Hepatotoxicity induced by oral anabolic compounds tends to be characterized by enlargement of periportal hepatocytes, impairment of bile flow & dramatically increased serum levels of AST, ALT and GGT. In other words, cholestasis... but let's examine this a little bit further.
> ...


Another article:




> How do 17-aa oral steroids cause liver damage?
> 
> Despite a lot of discussion on the forums about the "toxicity" of different oral steroids, most users are unaware of the mechanism or implications around these "toxic effects" (which is probably the reason why most users have yet to find an effective cure for the toxic effects).
> 
> Let me shed some light on this ambiguous topic.
> 
> 17-aa steroids are toxic to the liver because they inhibit the excretory functions of the liver. (1-7)
> 
> More specifically, the more "liver toxic" a 17-aa steroid is, the more it inhibits the production and flow of bile from the liver.
> ...


One more small thing I found someone post on another forum:




> Everytime now that I take an oral AAS, I get massive heartburn within 3 days. I even tried an injectable oral and still got acid reflux within a week. So, I did some research and found some interesting information. This is just a random post I found on Google.
> 
> 
> http://www.********.com/forums/archi...p/t-36636.html 
> Everyone seems to miss what is happening here. If an oral kills your appetite, it is because it is too toxic for the liver. I forget exactly what happens, but to summarize, when the liver is overloaded it causes a slowing of digestion, and a backflow of bile, which is why you also see people complaining of acid reflux on harsh 17aa's. The only way to really cure your appetite is to drop the anadrol . Perhaps next time around run with liv. 52 and alpha lipoic acid?
> 
> 
> 
> From what I read, bile helps with digestion. Now, when I take an oral AAS, the pain I get is similar to acid reflu/heartburn, but not exactly. It feels more like the food I eat just sits in my stomach and rots, never digesting. Lets say I eat some tacos on Tuesday, by Thursday morning I am still burping that taste up.That always made me wonder if orals cause heartburn or something similar.
> ...


I hope this has educated a lot of people! Keep this thread bumped!

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## Chris_Sweden

Great post!
Was just about to order some Liv 52, but now I'll definitly make it TUDCA instead.
What is the recomended daily dosage for tudca?
I found it for $25/60 caps. Is that ok or should I keep looking?

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## Atomini

- 500mg PER DAY for liver maintenance while on cycle. 

- 1,000mg or more per day for liver repair if you have done lots of damage from heavy oral use and/or you have high liver enzyme readings from a blood test, etc. 

The medical studies done on UDCA/TUDCA on people with liver disorders were using 1,500 - 2,000mg per day for repair purposes.

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## MickeyKnox

Excellent write up, as usual, Atomini! 

Any experience with Aegis‏? (Polyenylphosphatidylcholine + Tauroursodeoxycholic acid)

http://www.antaeuslabs.com/aegis.html

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## Chris_Sweden

> - 500mg PER DAY for liver maintenance while on cycle. 
> 
> - 1,000mg or more per day for liver repair if you have done lots of damage from heavy oral use and/or you have high liver enzyme readings from a blood test, etc. 
> 
> The medical studies done on UDCA/TUDCA on people with liver disorders were using 1,500 - 2,000mg per day for repair purposes.



Thanks, great info!
I will start a 12 week Test-C cycle soon, with orals such as Dianabol (30 mg ed) and Proviron (25 mg ed) the first 6 weeks. Will 500-1000 mg of TUDCA ed make it possible for the liver to manage the orals throughout the 12 week cycle? I just LOVE that D-bol! But I've had some issues with water retention though. Hopefully some Proviron and Aromasin will help.

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## Atomini

> Excellent write up, as usual, Atomini! 
> 
> Any experience with Aegis‏? (Polyenylphosphatidylcholine + Tauroursodeoxycholic acid)
> 
> http://www.antaeuslabs.com/aegis.html


No experience with them but I will be using their stuff very soon. I have heard very good things about it though.




> Thanks, great info!
> I will start a 12 week Test-C cycle soon, with orals such as Dianabol (30 mg ed) and Proviron (25 mg ed) the first 6 weeks. Will 500-1000 mg of TUDCA ed make it possible for the liver to manage the orals throughout the 12 week cycle? I just LOVE that D-bol! But I've had some issues with water retention though. Hopefully some Proviron and Aromasin will help.


I wouldn't run oral AAS for more than 6 weeks at a time, especially the stuff that can be a little harsher at times such as dbol or anadrol . The TUDCA/UDCA may allow you to run it longer, yes, but I like to err on the side of caution. I don't see a problem with doing this, but it's not something I would do.

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## MickeyKnox

> No experience with them but I will be using their stuff very soon. I have heard very good things about it though...


Thanks Atomini, have some in the mail.  :Wink: 

Btw, why is this not a sticky???

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## JohnnyTribal

This is an amazing price if info I love this board

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## Chris_Sweden

I'll go for 6 weeks. Better safe than sorry, right?
Thanks again, Atomini, this thread has been very helpfull!

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## Schyluer

Atomini i have gilberts syndrome/disease. This was a great write up i learned a lot. Was wondering if this still applys to me and to those who have gilberts syndrome. Thanks buddy

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## kawika

Can this be a sticky yet? such good info

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## Atomini

Hey guys, sorry for the late response, I never check this forum and I just noticed out the corner of my eye that this thread had some new replies in it.

Chis sweden, 6 weeks of TUDCA/UDCA is good, you just don't want to go over 8 weeks without a break.

Schyluer, I don't know anything about gilberts syndrome, but if you do some extensive searching and research on TUDCA/UDCA, you should find all the information you need. I hope i've provided enough thus far for you.

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## kawika

Atomini. I just got my bw back and apparently my liver enzymes are elevated far above normal (I haven't seen the results myself, they are in the mail).  I haven't done an oral cycle in almost a whole year and i have no idea whats causing the elevated enzymes; in fact bw last aug showed normal liver function. But my question is could udca help liver even though no oral aas have been used? Also is clen liver toxic? I recently started some clen and want to make sure im not doing more damage to my liver

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## Atomini

> Atomini. I just got my bw back and apparently my liver enzymes are elevated far above normal (I haven't seen the results myself, they are in the mail). I haven't done an oral cycle in almost a whole year and i have no idea whats causing the elevated enzymes; in fact bw last aug showed normal liver function. But my question is could udca help liver even though no oral aas have been used? Also is clen liver toxic? I recently started some clen and want to make sure im not doing more damage to my liver


Yes, it would help. But it depends on what your elevated liver enzymes are the result of. It wouldn't hurt to try taking TUDCA/UDCA regardless.

Clenbuterol 's liver toxicity is inconsistent. It has been shown to be slightly, yet other observations have not shown it to be liver toxic at all. No conclusions there unfortunately. For safety, if I were you, I would drop the clen whether or not it is the cause.

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## kawika

> Yes, it would help. But it depends on what your elevated liver enzymes are the result of. It wouldn't hurt to try taking TUDCA/UDCA regardless.
> 
> Clenbuterol's liver toxicity is inconsistent. It has been shown to be slightly, yet other observations have not shown it to be liver toxic at all. No conclusions there unfortunately. For safety, if I were you, I would drop the clen whether or not it is the cause.


Thanks for the advice. My next goal is to find out what's causing this liver damage. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and expertise on the matter.

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## Liftheavy6

I'm reading a lot of your posts, I'm learning a lot. Thanks bro

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## Armykid93

Hey atomini i'm curious. 

How long should the break between tudca usage be? You say 8 Weeks is the longest to run it but after running it that long how long should one be off before starting it again.

When should one start using it in conjunction to a regular cycle of only injectable aas and when with orals being added in? I'm guessing the times you need to start are going to be different depending.

Also is tudca something you would want to use if your not on cycle as a form of liver health or is it to strong for that? I'm assuming it is.

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## tigerspawn

Thanks for keeping this thread alive

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## CanadianBeefcake

Bump! Great thread. Thanks for the info Atomini

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## Isochroma

Curcumin beats UDCA (and likely TDCA) and everything else for liver protection and regenation save high-CB2-agonist synthetic cannabinoids. Not to mention Curcumin is far cheaper than TDCA:

EFFECTS OF CURCUMIN, RESVERATROL AND URSODEOXYCHOLIC ACID ON ETHINYLESTRADIOL AND CHLORPROMAZINE-INDUCED INTRAHEPATIC CHOLESTASIS IN RATS.pdf

pharmacologyonline.silae.it/files/archives/2009/vol3/010.Dina.pdf

Check that PDF's graphs starting on PDF page 5/10.
You'll be shocked by the liver histopathology images on PDF page 6/10.

_"Concurrent CMN administration with EE-CPZ 
prevented the proliferation of bile ducts. Liver sections showed normal liver structure with normal 
bile ducts (figure 3A). RSV administration did not prevent the proliferation of bile ducts (figure 
3B). UDCA produced a decrease in the degree of proliferation of bile ducts compared to untreated 
control group (figure 3C)."_

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## bosley1

> Curcumin beats UDCA (and likely TDCA) and everything else for liver protection and regenation save high-CB2-agonist synthetic cannabinoids. Not to mention Curcumin is far cheaper than TDCA:
> 
> EFFECTS OF CURCUMIN, RESVERATROL AND URSODEOXYCHOLIC ACID ON ETHINYLESTRADIOL AND CHLORPROMAZINE-INDUCED INTRAHEPATIC CHOLESTASIS IN RATS.pdf
> 
> pharmacologyonline.silae.it/files/archives/2009/vol3/010.Dina.pdf
> 
> Check that PDF's graphs starting on PDF page 5/10.
> You'll be shocked by the liver histopathology images on PDF page 6/10.
> 
> ...


A couple of things with this: the dosage of curcumin was 200mg/kg. The dosage of udca was 25mg/kg. Udca was also administered simultaneously with ee-cpz. I believe there have been other studies (no refs soz) showing it to be more beneficial as an after the fact treatment, and in fact harmful as a before the liver insult preventative. The study was only 7 days. Used over time udca has a cumulative affect. Is 7 days enough? Curcumin is healthy though. Nothing against that. Lets not disregard udca too quickly though.

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## SOL!D5NAK3

i can't find any TUDCA in our country drug info site but i did find UDCA, they have 300mg and 250mg forms.

is UDCA alone enough for liver protection?

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## Gambit11

Trying to order some online. Overwhelmed with amount of brands, Variation of prices, and insufficient info on content dose. Can someone recommend a brand.. please.

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## minto

> Trying to order some online. Overwhelmed with amount of brands, Variation of prices, and insufficient info on content dose. Can someone recommend a brand.. please.


Been getting mine on tudca.com recently, no complaints so far.

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## Mr.BB

> i can't find any TUDCA in our country drug info site but i did find UDCA, they have 300mg and 250mg forms.
> 
> is UDCA alone enough for liver protection?


Same here, I can only find Ursofalk (UDCA) in pharmacies. Its a prescription only medicine. Going to try it.

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## mrtypr

Hey guys

I am just trying to work out how much TUDCA I should have as I finished a cycle over 10 weeks and my liver enzymes are a little elevated:

Boldenone Undecylenate	@ 450mg
Testosterone Enanthate @ 450mg
Trenbolone Enanthate @ 300mg

through week 5 to 10 I did 50mg on var

followed by a month of Clomid and Nolva standard protocol


my liver enzyme are as follows:
AST is 45 and ASL is 116
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

I wrote 45 myself as the doc did not include it in the report as it was healthy

Now I know the post says from the OP reply:

500mg PER DAY for liver maintenance while on cycle. 

- 1,000mg or more per day for liver repair if you have done lots of damage from heavy oral use and/or you have high liver enzyme readings from a blood test, etc. 

The medical studies done on UDCA/TUDCA on people with liver disorders were using 1,500 - 2,000mg per day for repair purposes.

Not sure if i need 1g of TUDCA per day as it seems a lot for my liver levels

also the dosage of whats suggested is that purely just Tauroursodeoxycholic acid ? as the TUDCA i am looking at has other stuff in there to such as;
PPC
NAC
SAMe

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## Doublewide1

I actually have liver problems. Old thread I know but this subject is near and dear to my heart. Is eveytone sold on the fact that Milk Thistle is crap? I live in U.S. but someone (a doctor) told me Milk Thistle is a prescription in other countries and the only reason you can buy it OTC here is because no one got a drug patent on it quick enough. Never heard of this other stuff but will read it.

As for steroids it’s all what you taking. Orals are particularly harsh on the liver. And of course you can read up on which injectibles are the most liver toxic. Some just kill your liver. I have done a lot of research on this and the safest steroids to take are Test Prop and NPP. From my research there I’d very little if not zero effect on your liver. This is all I can take. 

How bad were my liver problems? One of my liver levels sai “Panic High”. Not Low. Not high. Panic High. Never heard of that before. I was having some pretty big problems. Well, nou pretty big. They were huge problems.

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## Donthate

That is a lot of useful information, thank you

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