# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > DIET AND NUTRITION >  Experiment begins(ascorbic acid)

## Kärnfysikern

Experiment begins today. I have been forced to rest for 9 days since my wrist was so ****ed upp so its a excelent time to begin.

I have been on test 500mg/week now for so long that I will notice if the vitamin is giving a little extra bost.

Right now Im chugging down around 2 grams of askorbic acid in 1,5 liters of water and then Il head for the gym(on a empty stomach). I now have 2 post workout shakes

The first one contains this
A bit of protein
A bit of carbs
around 5deciliters of orange juice
5grams of ascorbi acid

The other one is the regular 70g dextrose 50g whey shake and some creatin.

Im mixing the ascorbic acid with the orange juice since one of the high dosage ascorbic acid "pioneers"(Fred R. Klenner) feelt that it increases absorbation. Sounds logical to me.

Next time Il try to get ahold of sodium ascorbate instead of ascorbic acid since the sodium ascorbate is neutral while ascorbic acid is acidic. Not found anyone that sells it yet though(except a place that sells it in 25kg bags lol).

Now heading for the gym I have a nice leg workout ahead of me  :7up:

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## SwoleCat

Can you summarize what you are testing? I don't understand.

Thanks bro,

~SC~

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## Kärnfysikern

Im going to se what effects megadosages of ascorbic acid will have on my bodycompositin/energy/strenght and general wellbeeing without dietary changes.

Bodycomposition will be hard since the only thing I can go after is the scale and the mirror. I dont even have a camera or any way to messure bf%.

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## SwoleCat

Ah, okay cool. I know you have the other thread on this, but it was too long to read! 

 :LOL: 

Thanks,
~SC~

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## Kärnfysikern

lol: take the time someday its interesting  :Strong Smiley: 

especialy the poliquin article where he mentiones drastic bf% lowering effects of 50grams of ascorbic acid done 2-3 times a week.

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## SwoleCat

50 GRAMS????

No thanks!

~SC~

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## Kärnfysikern

it was not oral though but through a IV. Hell if I found a doc nearby that was willing to experiment with me I would go alon without a doubt  :Smilie: 
After all I have read about ascorbic acid the last month or so I am convinced its totaly safe and incredibly beneficial for a variety of conditions.

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## SwoleCat

Go for it bro, but too much of anything is not good, even good old water.

Peace,

~SC~

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## Duck of Death

........FIFTY grams of ascorbic acid?? I would predict gastric upset, possible bleeding or gastic ulcer, and hemmorhoids due to the acid irritation of the anal mucosa......... please be careful!!

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## Kärnfysikern

duck I wont in any way consume 50g ascorbic acid. I just mentioned the study. I will use 15grams or so depending on bowel tolerance. Im also gonna try and get ahold of sodium ascorbat(ph neutral) instead of ascorbic acid since I have a history of stomach problems.

For now I have ascorbic acid but I will always consume it along with a anti acid. Just need to make sure first that no mineral in the anti acid can neutralise the ascorbic acid.

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## Duck of Death

> duck I wont in any way consume 50g ascorbic acid. I just mentioned the study. I will use 15grams or so depending on bowel tolerance. Im also gonna try and get ahold of sodium ascorbat(ph neutral) instead of ascorbic acid since I have a history of stomach problems.
> 
> For now I have ascorbic acid but I will always consume it along with a anti acid. Just need to make sure first that no mineral in the anti acid can neutralise the ascorbic acid.



....... Oh. Whew. Just be careful - oral administration of acidic drugs is always more problematic than IV route. I am going to follow your thread - should be enlightening!

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## Kärnfysikern

yeah the acidity is the only thing that concerns me. I would never want to get another ulcer. So Im gonna be a anti acid junky lol. Or rather Il consume alot of baking soda since that is a good anti acid and its cheap as hell  :Smilie:  I might also take a lozec pill daily to protect the stomach even more but I think/hope that wont be needed.

anyway more info about this. I will ramp upp ascorbic acid dosage until I get dihareea then Il drop down and keep the intake at that level. Im guestimating somewhere betwen 10-15grams/Day. On workout days I will always consume atleast 5grams in orange juice pwo along with my pwo shake. On rest days I will spread the dosage out evenly(Il probably mix down 15 grams of ascorbic acid into 1,5 liters of water and take a few mouthfulls with every meal).

I will do this for 5 weeks then Il go 5 weeks without ascorbic acid(only 500mg/Day for health). Routine will be the same(doggcrapp with some westside influence) and diet will be the same.

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## Kärnfysikern

This is roughly what my diet will look like all the time. Feel free to critique

_Rest days_

Meal 1
can of tuna
flax oil
1 whole egg
_Total 40g protein, 1gcarb, 10g fat 254kcal_

Meal 2
200g meat
50g soybeans
_Total 57g protein, 9g carbs, 29g fat, 525kcal_

Meal 3 same as meal one
_Total 40g protein, 1gcarb, 10g fat 254kcal_

Meal 4
150g meat
50g soybeans
_Total 47g protein, 9gcarb, 24g fat, 440kcal_

Meal 5 same as meal one
_Total 40g protein, 1gcarb, 10g fat 254kcal_

_Daily total 224g protein, 21g carbs, 83g fat 1727kcal_(Some days I will skip the eggs and do another meal with tuna to lower kcal but raise protein. Those days kcal will be around 1650 and protein around 235).

************************************************** ************************************************** ****************

_Workout days_

Meal 1 same as meal 1 on rest day
_Total 40g protein, 1gcarb, 10g fat 254kcal_

Meal 2 pwo shake and ascorbic acid oj shake
_Total 38g protein, 100g carbs(100g after legs, 60 after upper body), 4g fat
558kcal_

Meal 3
Oatmeal
Whey
_Total 42g protein, 23g carbs, 6g fat, 314kcal_

Meal 4 
Tuna
flax oil
_total 35g protein, 5g fat 185kcal_

Meal 5
150g meat
50g soybeans
_Total 47g protein, 9gcarb, 24g fat, 440kcal_

Meal 6
_Tuna
total 35g protein_

_Daily total 237g protein, 132g carbs on leg day, 92g on upper body day, 49g fat, 1917kcal on leg days, 1757kcal on upper body days_

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## Kärnfysikern

upp to 10grams of ascorbic acid a day now. No diharrea so far but my stomach gets upset from the acidity so Im switching to sodium ascorbat as soon as it arrives. I will also bump upp dosage to 20 grams as soon as it gets here.

todays workout feelt amazing. So did the workout on sunday. But I had rested for 9 days before it so that is the explenation.
I dont know if this is the vitamin c but I feel SO energetic. Im bursting with excess energy!

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## IronFreakX

Did u try IV vit C ?

im thinking of IV B-12 ... Vitc IV for a combo wut do u think?

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## Kärnfysikern

what do you mean with IV? Intravenous? I wouldnt feel comfterable injecting stuff into my veins even though I have seen descriptions on how to make home made iv sodium ascorbat. But thats to risky I wouldnt do it unless Im under doc supervision.

IM would be a whole different thing though but I dont know in what concentrations and how much could be shot in each spot ect.

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## IronFreakX

im not gonna cycle in a long time maybe never!!!i feel like im progressing real fast but i wanna stick myself in the ass with smth!!!  :LOL:  i heard ppl saying that the b-12 is good and ive already seen gr8 results from oral Vit C 

gonna research this for a couple of days and post wut i come up with then start the injecting... :Big Grin:

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## Kärnfysikern

Let me know if you find any IM formula for vitamin c. I know the concentration for IV but not IM.

also if you inject vitamin c make sure its sodium ascorbat or magnesium ascorbat. Injecting ascorbic acid I think would be dangers since its acidic.

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## IronFreakX

> Let me know if you find any IM formula for vitamin c. I know the concentration for IV but not IM.
> 
> also if you inject vitamin c make sure its sodium ascorbat or magnesium ascorbat. Injecting ascorbic acid I think would be dangers since its acidic.


ill check that out too!! ill do my research and let ya know...gotta learn how to inject im still a virgin when it comes to injecting  :LOL:

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## Kärnfysikern

Its defenetly doing something. I am constantly hot. When I workout I sweat as I usualy do when on high dosage of clen . I feel so energetic to. Like my body has been "recharged" somehow.
Got my sodium ascorbate today so will now bump upp dosage to 15-20 grams/day. Took 5grams pre workout today and 10grams post workout and will now spread out 5 grams over the rest of the day. Gonna be interesting to se if I get the diharrea now.

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## Kärnfysikern

starting next week I will post all my workouts to keep a check on any strenght gains/losses. My bodyweight is exactly 90kg(202,5 ibs)

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## Kärnfysikern

ironfreak here is a page with a description on how to make both IV and IM solution of sodium ascorbate

http://www.orthomed.com/civprep.htm

But I dont recomend this. The IM one I might do sometime but I would defently filter it and I have NO clue what "edetate disodium injection" is

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## Kärnfysikern

man I still have this crasy energy. It has to be the vit c no other explenation. Today I had alot of things to sort out on town so for 2 hours I ran around on town. Then I went home fixed my biked. Ate a small meal and headed for work takes 40 minutes to get there by bike(regular bicyle(how the f**k its spelled))worked for a few hours and bike ride home and Im still filled with insane energy even though I woke upp several hours earlier then before.

Im a bit dehydrated now to I notice. Low bp(112/45) and high puls rate (76beats/min)because I drank some coffe at work and forgot about drinking water sweating all the time like a mad man. Im HOT.

Anyway with this energy and how hot I am all the time the vit c must have some kind of impact on my metabolism.

IF anyone wonders why I have been posting alot more then usual the last few days its because of the energy the vit c is giving me.

Gonna take only 5 grams tomorrow if not a bit less and only 5 grams the day aftre that. Gym is closed until monday so no use in mega dosing during the weekend.

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## Kärnfysikern

I was a bit hypoglycemic it seems. Drank 20grams of dextrose just to se and I stopped sweating within minutes. Seems like vitamin c is very good at increasing insulin sensitivity

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## dazbo

You read this ?? The last paragraph is most important for you.


"9. Using antioxidants post workout enhances recovery.

Heres another myth that just makes sense: we work out, cause all kinds of damage to our bodies, then we use antioxidants to help clean up the mess. Simple and sweet. The reality? Neither simple or sweet. In fact, it may not surprise you to find that there is a clear lack of data on antioxidant supplementation following exercise.

Taking a step back to look at the basis for the theory, its been shown that damaging eccentric exercise didnt change the normal levels of our bodys antioxidants (Child et al., 1999). In other words, our body has a natural antioxidant defense capability, and this was not stressed at all despite the exercise and the subsequent muscle damage. 

This is contradicted by other data showing that there is an impact of exercise on natural antioxidant levels (Lee et al., 2002; Goldfarb et al., 2005), but clearly the case is not closed. With this conflicting research, youd have to wonder if antioxidant supplementation would have any effect at all! Oh it does, my oxidized friend, but the effects are not what wed expect!

Once again, heres one of the most underrated research papers of the last 5 yearstake note folks because this is one of those studies you need to know about. This groundbreaking research by Childs and buddies (2001) examined the impact of post workout antioxidant supplementation on subsequent muscle damage and healing. 

Youll be shocked to know they found that this practice actually increased muscle damage and delayed recovery! Thats right, the microtrauma experienced by the muscle cells was exacerbated by the antioxidants. With this, the greater the damage, the more time it takes to repair.

It seems that there are pro-oxidant effects happening here, meaning that the "antioxidants" actually started causing the damage they were meant to clean up! While this effect is thought to occur with excessive antioxidant use, its surprising that these effects were seen at a Vitamin C dosage of ~1100mg and ~900mg N-Acetyl Cysteine per day, for a 200 lb guy, neither of which are all that incredibly high. To my knowledge, this is the only study to investigate antioxidant supplementation after strength training. This makes the findings incredibly powerful because they are directly applicable to us!"

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## Kärnfysikern

I have seen a study dementing that last pahragraph. They draw that conclusion on fals assumptions. Vit c doesnt act as a pro oxidant in that way.

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## Kärnfysikern

and I would be very suprised if it lowered recovery since influencal people like pouiliqin uses it on his athletes for recovery reasons. its getting more and more comon in the sports world to use vit c as a recovery aid.

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## dazbo

I am Pro-Vit C as I know it has many great properties. But, surely those studies prove something ?? Maybe not when you use it through the day (15g daily spread out) but maybe NOT used as Pre or PWO ???

I will be watching this thread to see how it goes though.

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## Kärnfysikern

I think I will continue a while with this kind of use and se what happens. If I notice anything negative I will change it upp

I still cant figure out how it can make me so hot and sweaty.

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## Alpha-Male

Effect of vitamin supplementation on cytokine response and on muscle damage after strenuous exercise 
Emil Wolsk Petersen1,2, Kenneth Ostrowski1,2, Tobias Ibfelt1,2, Myriam Richelle4, Elizabeth Offord4, Jens Halkjær-Kristensen3, and Bente Klarlund Pedersen1,2 

The main purpose of the study was to evaluate whether antioxidant vitamin supplementation had any effect on the cytokine, muscle enzyme, or lymphocyte responses to exercise. In line with previous studies (29), we demonstrated significant increases in IL-6, IL-1ra, and CK after eccentric exercise. The present study also confirmed previous findings showing that all lymphocyte subpopulations are recruited to the blood during exercise and that the total lymphocyte count is suppressed in the postexercise period (22, 29). Analyses of blood demonstrated that we were able to identify two groups (supplemented and placebo) that differed markedly with respect to the vitamins C and E concentrations in the blood. However, the two groups had the same cytokine and lymphocyte responses to exercise. The latter findings are in agreement with those of Nieman et al. (21) who found that 8 days of vitamin C supplementation (1,000 mg/day, n = 6) had no influence on immune parameters after a 2.5-h run compared with a control group (n = 6). 

In this study, we also evaluated the effect of antioxidant supplementation on exercise-induced muscle damage. However, vitamin supplementation did not influence exercise-induced muscle damage as visualized by CK levels. This finding is in agreement with studies by Warren et al. (33) and Kaikkonen et al. (15) but differ from McBride et al. (18) and Rokitzki et al. (31). The discrepancies could be a result of varied exercise protocols and different duration, quantities, and types of antioxidant supplementation used during the trials. Furthermore, we did not find any correlation between cytokine production and CK. Thus the present study does not support the idea that exercise-induced cytokine production is linked to muscle damage. 

The body possesses a natural selection of antioxidant enzymes and coenzymes, which minimizes free oxygen radical damage (7, 13). During periods of increased oxidative stress, e.g., during exercise, an enhancement of these natural antioxidants could occur. In both groups, we observed an increase in the plasma concentration of vitamin C during and after exercise, which could represent a reserve released during periods of greater oxidative stress. Perhaps this could sustain the free oxygen radical-to-antioxidant ratio, thereby eliminating excessive cellular damage. Elite athletes with a high-training regimen have been shown to have elevated baseline antioxidant levels compared with sedentary subjects (3, 16), suggesting an adaptive mechanism. The natural increase in plasma vitamin concentration during and after exercise could possibly abolish the effect of additional vitamin supplementation, though this needs to be further explored. 

In conclusion, the present study showed that supplementation with vitamin C and vitamin E combined significantly enhanced the levels of these vitamins in the blood without influencing the cytokine, muscle enzyme, or lymphocyte responses to exercise. Thus this study does not support the idea that the exercise-induced immune changes are generated by free oxygen radicals

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## Alpha-Male

Effect of vitamin supplementation on cytokine response and on muscle damage after strenuous exercise 
Emil Wolsk Petersen1,2, Kenneth Ostrowski1,2, Tobias Ibfelt1,2, Myriam Richelle4, Elizabeth Offord4, Jens Halkjær-Kristensen3, and Bente Klarlund Pedersen1,2 
1 Department of Infectious Diseases, Rigshospitalet, 2 Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, and 3 Department of Orthopedic Medicine and Rehabilitation, Rigshospitalet, Copenhagen, Denmark; and 4 Nestlé Research Center, Lausanne, Switzerland 

The present double-blinded, placebo-controlled study investigated whether antioxidant vitamin supplementation was able to modulate the cytokine and lymphocyte responses after strenuous eccentric exercise. Furthermore, muscle enzyme release was examined to see whether antioxidant treatment could reduce muscle damage. Twenty male recreational runners randomly received either antioxidants (500 mg of vitamin C and 400 mg of vitamin E) or placebo for 14 days before and 7 days after a 5% downhill 90-min treadmill run at 75% O2 max. *Although the supplemented group differed significantly with regard to plasma vitamin concentration before and after exercise when compared with the placebo group, the two groups showed identical exercise-induced changes in cytokine, muscle enzyme, and lymphocyte subpopulations.*  The plasma level of interleukin (IL)-6 and IL-1 receptor antagonist increased 20- and 3-fold after exercise. The plasma level of creatine kinase was increased sixfold the day after exercise. The concentrations of CD4+ memory T cells, CD8+ memory and naïve T cells, and natural killer cells increased at the end of exercise. The total lymphocyte concentration was below prevalues in the postexercise period. *In conclusion, the present study does not support the idea that exercise-induced inflammatory responses are induced by free oxygen radicals.*

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## Alpha-Male

SUPPLEMENTATION WITH VITAMIN C AND N-ACETYL-CYSTEINE
INCREASES OXIDATIVE STRESS IN HUMANS AFTER AN ACUTE MUSCLE
INJURY INDUCED BY ECCENTRIC EXERCISE

A. CHILDS, C. JACOBS, T. KAMINSKI, B. HALLIWELL, and C. LEEUWENBURGH*
Biochemistry of Aging Laboratory, Center for Exercise Science, College of Health and Human Performance, University of Florida,
Gainesville, FL, USA; and Department of Biochemistry, National University of Singapore, Kent Ridge Crescent, Singapore,
Singapore
(Received 1 May 2001; Accepted 15 June 2001)

AbstractThere has been no investigation to determine if the widely used over-the-counter, water-soluble antioxidants
vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) could act as pro-oxidants in humans during inflammatory conditions. We
induced an acute-phase inflammatory response by an eccentric arm muscle injury. The inflammation was characterized
by edema, swelling, pain, and increases in plasma inflammatory indicators, myeloperoxidase and interleukin-6.
Immediately following the injury, subjects consumed a placebo or vitamin C (12.5 mg/kg body weight) and NAC (10
mg/kg body weight) for 7 d. The resulting muscle injury caused increased levels of serum bleomycin-detectable iron and
the amount of iron was higher in the vitamin C and NAC group. The concentrations of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH),
creatine kinase (CK), and myoglobin were significantly elevated 2, 3, and 4 d postinjury and returned to baseline levels
by day 7. In addition, LDH and CK activities were elevated to a greater extent in the vitamin C and NAC group. Levels
of markers for oxidative stress (lipid hydroperoxides and 8-iso prostaglandin F2a; 8-Iso-PGF2a) and antioxidant enzyme
activities were also elevated post-injury. The subjects receiving vitamin C and NAC had higher levels of lipid
hydroperoxides and 8-Iso-PGF2a 2 d after the exercise. *This acute human inflammatory model strongly suggests that
vitamin C and NAC supplementation immediately post-injury, transiently increases tissue damage and oxidative
stress.*

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## Alpha-Male

SUPPLEMENTATION WITH VITAMIN C AND N-ACETYL-CYSTEINE
INCREASES OXIDATIVE STRESS IN HUMANS AFTER AN ACUTE MUSCLE
INJURY INDUCED BY ECCENTRIC EXERCISE

A. CHILDS, C. JACOBS, T. KAMINSKI, B. HALLIWELL, and C. LEEUWENBURGH*
Biochemistry of Aging Laboratory, Center for Exercise Science, College of Health and Human Performance, University of Florida,
Gainesville, FL, USA; and Department of Biochemistry, National University of Singapore, Kent Ridge Crescent, Singapore,
Singapore
(Received 1 May 2001; Accepted 15 June 2001)

AbstractThere has been no investigation to determine if the widely used over-the-counter, water-soluble antioxidants
vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) could act as pro-oxidants in humans during inflammatory conditions. We
induced an acute-phase inflammatory response by an eccentric arm muscle injury. The inflammation was characterized
by edema, swelling, pain, and increases in plasma inflammatory indicators, myeloperoxidase and interleukin-6.
Immediately following the injury, subjects consumed a placebo or vitamin C (12.5 mg/kg body weight) and NAC (10
mg/kg body weight) for 7 d. The resulting muscle injury caused increased levels of serum bleomycin-detectable iron and
the amount of iron was higher in the vitamin C and NAC group. The concentrations of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH),
creatine kinase (CK), and myoglobin were significantly elevated 2, 3, and 4 d postinjury and returned to baseline levels
by day 7. In addition, LDH and CK activities were elevated to a greater extent in the vitamin C and NAC group. Levels
of markers for oxidative stress (lipid hydroperoxides and 8-iso prostaglandin F2a; 8-Iso-PGF2a) and antioxidant enzyme
activities were also elevated post-injury. The subjects receiving vitamin C and NAC had higher levels of lipid
hydroperoxides and 8-Iso-PGF2a 2 d after the exercise. *This acute human inflammatory model strongly suggests that
vitamin C and NAC supplementation immediately post-injury, transiently increases tissue damage and oxidative
stress.*

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## Kärnfysikern

Im gonna do a quick search for the article that explains that those are wrong.

and also Im NOT trying to limit free radicals post workout with the ascorbic acid. The effect Im looking for is the cortisol lowering one aswell as its ability to increase insulin sensitivity.

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## Kärnfysikern

> SUPPLEMENTATION WITH VITAMIN C AND N-ACETYL-CYSTEINE
> INCREASES OXIDATIVE STRESS IN HUMANS AFTER AN ACUTE MUSCLE
> INJURY INDUCED BY ECCENTRIC EXERCISE
> 
> A. CHILDS, C. JACOBS, T. KAMINSKI, B. HALLIWELL, and C. LEEUWENBURGH*
> Biochemistry of Aging Laboratory, Center for Exercise Science, College of Health and Human Performance, University of Florida,
> Gainesville, FL, USA; and Department of Biochemistry, National University of Singapore, Kent Ridge Crescent, Singapore,
> Singapore
> (Received 1 May 2001; Accepted 15 June 2001)
> ...


I cant find the article. But my first point here is that they used a very small vitamin c dosage. Its comon knoweledge among the vit c experts that vitamin c behaves in a different way when megadoses. That dosage in the study would equal a bit over a gram in me. I take over 5 times that much post workout and 3 times as much pre workout.

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## Kärnfysikern

btw read the studies you have posted lol. 2 of them claim free radicals isnt involved in exercise induced tissue damage/inflamation is caused

the other 2 claim that since the levels of free radicals increase when taking NAC or vit c it must cause more tissue damage. Doesnt seem like they can make upp there minds.

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## IronFreakX

I think im gonna try 30grams IM in the next couple of days

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## IronFreakX

ill try it for 3 days if im ok ....no syptoms or nething wierd ill up to 50grams
now how do i inject? :Big Grin:

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## Kärnfysikern

ironfreak how are you preparing that IM solution. Are you including edetate disodium. It is there to prevent hypercalcemia. Im guessing large ammounts of ascorbic acid can create hypercalcemia and that can be dangerous.

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## IronFreakX

huh  :What?:  isnt it available in pharmacies?
ill just pick up the solution and stab my butt muwahahahahah

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## Kärnfysikern

ohh yeah you might buy it there lol. also you are probably talking about 100ml here so its not one stab in the but its more like 10 stabs all over the ass and quads  :Wink:

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## IronFreakX

damn  :LOL:  well the max i can inject is 2cc rite? how much is that i dunno much bout needles and stuff

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## IronFreakX

and im gonna inject the b-complex too....can i do that on the same day 
i need info bout that gonna search...a bit

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## Kärnfysikern

about those studies another flaw is that the didnt give vitamin c alone.

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## Kärnfysikern

1ml=1cc. Well I have injected 5cc so 2cc is not any kind of max. I dont know the deal with water soulable things though. They give kids vit c injections in the ass but ammounts I dont know.

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## Kärnfysikern

> Exercise training and supplementation with carnitine and antioxidants increases carnitine stores, triglyceride utilization, and endurance in exercising rats.
> 
> Kim E, Park H, Cha YS.
> 
> Department of Food Science & Human Nutrition, and Institute for Molecular Biology and Genetics, Chonbuk National University, Chonju 561-756, Korea.
> 
> This study evaluated the effects of supplementation of carnitine and antioxidants on lipids, carnitine concentrations, and exercise endurance time in both trained and untrained rats as compared to non-supplemented rats. Thirty-two male SD rats, age 7 wk were divided into four groups according to exercise training and modified AIN-76 diets: NTNS (non-trained non-supplemented), NTS (non-trained supplemented), LTNS (long-trained non-supplemented) and LTS (long-trained supplemented). The trained rats were run on a treadmill for 60 min per day (10(0) incline, 20 m/min for 8 wk). Carnitine (0.5%/diet) and vitamin E (0.5 mg/g b.w.) were supplemented in rat diets and vitamin C (0.5 mg/g b.w.) and melatonin (1 microg/g b.w.) were administered into the stomachs of the rats. LTNS and LTS rats had significantly lower serum total lipid, triglyceride, total cholesterol and liver triglycerides, but had higher serum HDL-cholesterol. There were no changes in exercise endurance time by supplementation in untrained animals, however endurance times were longer in LTS animals than in LTNS. The supplementation and training tended to increase carnitine palmitoyltransferase (CPT-I) activities, although the differences were not statistically significant. Likewise, CPT-I mRNA levels were higher in both supplemented and exercise trained rats.* These results suggest that supplementation of carnitine and antioxidants may improve lipid profiles and exercise ability in exercise-trained rats.*
> 
> PMID: 15754494 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Since this was done on rats I dont know the implications in human use. But the vitamin c dosage was FAR greater and that is what interestes me

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## Kärnfysikern

> Free Radic Biol Med. 2005 Apr 1;38(7):898-907. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> Vitamin C homeostasis in skeletal muscle cells.
> 
> Savini I, Catani MV, Duranti G, Ceci R, Sabatini S, Avigliano L.
> 
> Department of Experimental Medicine and Biochemical Sciences, University of Rome Tor Vergata, Via Montpellier 1, 00133 Rome, Italy.
> 
> ...


notice the bold. Vitamin c protects cells against ROS(reactive oxygen spieces) generation induced by physical exercise

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## Kärnfysikern

> Respir Physiol Neurobiol. 2004 Nov 30;144(1):81-90. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> The oxidative stress in response to routine incremental cycling exercise in healthy sedentary subjects.
> 
> Jammes Y, Steinberg JG, Bregeon F, Delliaux S.
> 
> Service des Explorations Fonctionnelles Respiratoires, Hopital Nord, Assistance Publique-Hopitaux de Marseille, Chemin des Bourrely, 13015 Marseille, France. [email protected]
> 
> ...


negatively correlated means that increased RAA decreased TBARS. Im not sure what the word "correlated" means  :Don't know:

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## Kärnfysikern

> Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2004 Aug;14(4):377-88. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> Effects of antioxidant therapy in women exposed to eccentric exercise.
> 
> Bloomer RJ, Goldfarb AH, McKenzie MJ, You T, Nguyen L.
> 
> Department of Health and Sport Sciences, the University of Memphis, Memphis, TN 38152-3480, USA.
> 
> ...


the fact that it helped against muscle soreness must have some kind of implication. When I think about it I havent been realy sore anywhere since I started vit c experiment and I had rested for over 9 days before so I should have feelt good soreness.

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## Kärnfysikern

> J Physiol. 2004 Jul 15;558(Pt 2):633-45. Epub 2004 May 28. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> Supplementation with vitamins C and E inhibits the release of interleukin-6 from contracting human skeletal muscle.
> 
> Fischer CP, Hiscock NJ, Penkowa M, Basu S, Vessby B, Kallner A, Sjoberg LB, Pedersen BK.
> 
> Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Copenhagen, Denmark. [email protected]
> 
> ...


I have no clu though if its a good thing to inhibit Interleuin-6 release from the muscle. But the first bold shows that lipi peroxide was lowered in the group that got vit c and alpha tocepherol(sp?)

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## Kärnfysikern

jsut read that interleukin-6 is a marker of peripheral inflammation so it must be good to lower it.

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## Kärnfysikern

_Interleukin-6 (IL-6) is a pro-inflammatory cytokine that also has an important role in immunity. IL-6 induces growth and terminal differentiation of B cells; secretion of immunoglobulins; differentiation and activation of T cells and macrophages; and the induction of acute-phase response proteins (1). The gene for IL-6 is located on chromosome 7p21 (2). Many types of cells, including macrophages, T cells, fibroblasts, and endothelial cells, produce IL-6 in response to stimuli such as bacteria, viruses, and other cytokines, particularly IL-1 and tumor necrosis factor, alpha (TNF)._

_Interleukin-6 (IL-6) is a pro-inflamatory cytokine secreted by T cells and macrophages to stimulate immune response to trauma, especially burns or other tissue damage leading to inflammation. Additionally osteoblasts to stimulate osteoclast formation. Inhibitors of IL-6 (including estrogen) are used to treat postmenopausal osteoporosis._

----------


## Kärnfysikern

this is a interesting studie on rats 




> Di Yi Jun Yi Da Xue Xue Bao. 2003 Sep;23(9):892-4. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> [Effect of antioxidant vitamins on the exercise performance of rats]
> 
> [Article in Chinese]
> 
> Yu B, Qin CH, Luo JW, Yang JC, Lin WT, Wen XY, Huang LY.
> 
> ...


at first it makes it sound like vit c isnt all that needed or benifical. But offcourse vitamin c supplements WONT make a difference in rats because they have a natural production of vit c that would equal over 10grams/day in a man and that can increase to twice as much under stress.

anyway I wonder if this can carryover into humans. That would probably mean that vit c and vit e can increase performance.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

this one is IMPORTANT since LDL and HDL levels should be something we all would like to keep a check on.




> Clin Sci (Lond). 2004 Jan;106(1):107-9. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> Effect of ascorbate on serum lipids and urate metabolism during exhaustive training.
> 
> Yanai H, Morimoto M.
> 
> Department of Internal Medicine, Sapporo Self-Defense Hospital, Sapporo 062-8610, Japan.
> 
> ...

----------


## Kärnfysikern

and 2 more before I stop.

Now you have some reading alpha-man  :Wink: 




> Free Radic Biol Med. 2003 Aug 1;35(3):284-91. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> Exercise-induced endotoxemia: the effect of ascorbic acid supplementation.
> 
> Ashton T, Young IS, Davison GW, Rowlands CC, McEneny J, Van Blerk C, Jones E, Peters JR, Jackson SK.
> 
> Department of Sport Science, De Montfort University, Lansdowne Road, Bedford, England, UK. [email protected]
> 
> ...





> Pflugers Arch. 2003 Sep;446(6):658-64. Epub 2003 Jul 12. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> Influence of vitamin C diet supplementation on endogenous antioxidant defences during exhaustive exercise.
> 
> Tauler P, Aguilo A, Gimeno I, Fuentespina E, Tur JA, Pons A.
> 
> Laboratori de Ciencies de l'Activitat Fisica, Dept Biologia Fonamental i Ciencies de la Salut, Universitat de les Illes Balears, Crta. Valldemossa, km 7,5, 07071, Palma de Mallorca, Balearic Islands, Spain.
> 
> ...

----------


## Kärnfysikern

Int J Sports Med. 2001 Oct;22(7):537-43. Related Articles, Links 


Vitamin C supplementation attenuates the increases in circulating cortisol, adrenaline and anti-inflammatory polypeptides following ultramarathon running.

Peters EM, Anderson R, Nieman DC, Fickl H, Jogessar V.

Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Natal, Durban, South Africa. [email protected]

The effects of vitamin C supplementation on the alterations in the circulating concentrations of cortisol, adrenaline, interleukin-10 (IL-10) and interleukin-1 receptor antagonist (IL-1Ra) which accompany ultramarathon running were measured using immuno-chemiluminescence, radioimmunoassay and ELISA procedures. Forty-five participants in the 1999 Comrades 90 km marathon were divided into equal groups (n = 15) receiving 500 mg/day Vit C (VC-500), 1500 mg/day Vit C (VC-1500) or placebo (P) for 7 days before the race, on the day of the race, and for 2 days following completion. Runners recorded dietary intake before, during and after the race and provided 35 ml blood samples 15 - 18 hrs before the race, immediately post-race, 24 hrs post race and 48 hrs post-race. Twenty-nine runners (VC-1500, n = 12; VC-500, n = 10; P, n = 7) complied with all study requirements. All post-race concentrations were adjusted for plasma volume changes. Analyses of dietary intakes and blood glucose and anti-oxidant status on the day preceding the race and the day of the race did not reveal that carbohydrate intake or plasma vitamins E and A were significant confounders in the study. Mean pre-race concentrations of serum vitamin C in VC-500 and VC-1500 groups (128 +/- 31 and 153 +/- 34 micromol/l) were significantly higher than in the P group (83 +/- 39 micromol/l). Immediate post-race serum cortisol was significantly lower in the VC-1500 group (p < 0.05) than in P and VC-500 groups. When the data from VC-500 and P groups was combined (n = 17), immediate post-race plasma adrenaline, IL-10 and IL-1Ra concentrations were also significantly lower (p < 0.05) in the VC-1500 group. The study demonstrates an attenuation, albeit transient, of both the adrenal stress hormone and anti-inflammatory polypeptide response to prolonged exercise in runners who supplemented with 1500 mg vitamin C per day when compared to < or = 500 mg per day.

Publication Types: 
Clinical Trial 
Controlled Clinical Trial 

PMID: 11590482 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------


## Alpha-Male

damn, just got into the office, not sure how much time i'll have to go over all this today, since Saturdays are very busy on our car lot...anyhoo, from what i remember in the research i found yesterday, it did say that some studies showed benefit, others did not...ive always heard that 'megadoses' of vitamins were very harmful for a person, and that you should get all you need from a well-balanced, healthy diet...if for some reason, you have a defecit, i.e. sickness/illness, etc, then of course, supplementation is necessary...what i would be most interested in, and what i could not find yesterday, are the studies you referenced by Charles Pollquin (sp?)...those are probably what we need to go by, or find some that are done in this manner: group A = experienced bodybuilders in their 20s on a healthy, well-balanced diet, no steroids who receive a 'megadose' of Vitamin C alone (cuz most of the studies you and i have posted were done with vit. C and other antioxidants) after a typical workout, and group B (control) = same subjects who receive either nothing or placebo (dont suppose placebo is needed)...at that point, have them record all of the different markers associated with muscle damage and repair, as well as cortisol levels, etc...then we'd have a good study, eh? i'll try to do some poking around throughout the day...good stuff though...

hey Johan, i also had a thought last night...i havent checked the supplement forum, but do they have a "profile" section? i mean, if they dont, i nominate you to start it up, kinda like Hooker in the steroid forum...make up some profiles on all kinds of vitamins, minerals, herbs, supplements and their potential benefits/negatives...if ya had the time that is  :Wink/Grin:  

peace

AM

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> damn, just got into the office, not sure how much time i'll have to go over all this today, since Saturdays are very busy on our car lot...anyhoo, from what i remember in the research i found yesterday, it did say that some studies showed benefit, others did not...ive always heard that 'megadoses' of vitamins were very harmful for a person, and that you should get all you need from a well-balanced, healthy diet...if for some reason, you have a defecit, i.e. sickness/illness, etc, then of course, supplementation is necessary...what i would be most interested in, and what i could not find yesterday, are the studies you referenced by Charles Pollquin (sp?)...those are probably what we need to go by, or find some that are done in this manner: group A = experienced bodybuilders in their 20s on a healthy, well-balanced diet, no steroids who receive a 'megadose' of Vitamin C alone (cuz most of the studies you and i have posted were done with vit. C and other antioxidants) after a typical workout, and group B (control) = same subjects who receive either nothing or placebo (dont suppose placebo is needed)...at that point, have them record all of the different markers associated with muscle damage and repair, as well as cortisol levels, etc...then we'd have a good study, eh? i'll try to do some poking around throughout the day...good stuff though...


The thing is the medical comunity realy doesnt experiment with mega dosage of ascorbic acid. For what reason I have no clue. Only a few "pioneers" have done work on that. People like Linus Pauling(nobel price winner 2 times), irwing stone, Thomas Levy, Fred R Kleener(the dude who cured polio and other "uncurable" diseases with vitamin c). But "officialy" there is no benifit to mega dosage of ascorbic acid.

This is a good read by Dr Levy about the medical communitys inability to accept vitamin c.
http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcint.htm Give it a read.

The pouliqin I mentioned. I dont think he has done any official studie but he mentiones on his website that he has seen alot of benifits from it and on t-muslce in a interview he talks aboiut how he got the idea and how amazing results mega dosage vitamin C done IV can have on bodycomposition. I didnt save the link but I will try to find it. I think it was in another thread I started.




> hey Johan, i also had a thought last night...i havent checked the supplement forum, but do they have a "profile" section? i mean, if they dont, i nominate you to start it up, kinda like Hooker in the steroid forum...make up some profiles on all kinds of vitamins, minerals, herbs, supplements and their potential benefits/negatives...if ya had the time that is  
> 
> peace
> 
> AM


Im acctualy doing that  :Smilie:  I wrote something short on Vitamin A as my first adition but took it offline since I found I had included some wrong info. I will try and do "profiles" on all vitamins and important minerals but since I am a perfectionist it will take some time lol  :Smilie:  Vitamins are incredibly complex and it seems like they have so many different functions in the body that its insane to go in depth.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

another thing that makes it so slow for me to write is that I realy dont know much about vitamins and minerals. So Im learning as I write. Im like teaching myself orthomolecular medicin in the process and thats why I do it since I want to know everything there is to know about disease prevention/curation and performacne enchanmetment by using naturaly occuring things.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

from poiluqin
TC: HA! Yep, Ive noticed that! Hey, what were you telling me the other day about intravenous Vitamin C and insulin sensitivity and hyperbaric chambers?

CP: Well, I got bit in the ass by a brown recluse spider and I got mono-like symptoms, and I never felt so bad in my life. I talked to one of my reps, and she referred me to a doctor in Denver and I went to see this guy who treated me with Vitamin C. First they confirmed that it was a brown recluse spider bite, and I was in danger, basically, of losing my butt cheek. 

I got treated with the Vitamin C and put in a hyperbaric chamber, and within 36 hours I was asymptomatic. I still had a lump of venom in there, and I kept doing the treatments and I got rid of the venom and all the effects. 

When you get bit by a brown recluse, you get necrotic fasciaitis, so people who get bit in the nose can lose their nose, people who get bit in the arm can lose their arm, etc, so by doing the super-high dose of Vitamin CI was getting 180 grams twice a dayby IV, I was able to save my tissue. 

However, interestingly, the guy told me that he had to monitor my blood sugar every 20 minutes. He said that such a high dose of Vitamin C has a considerable glycemic response, so I actually had to drink a gallon of grape juice while getting this Vitamin C treatment because my blood sugar levels were just falling, 

However, after doing the Vitamin C, and despite ingesting so many carbs, I was actually leaner when I left the clinic!

Then I went on-line and found the research that intravenous Vitamin C changes insulin sensitivity, so I started experimenting on myself. I was at 6% body fat when I started to do 180 grams of Vitamin C twice a week for a month, and I got down to 2.8% body fat without changing anything else. I asked the doctors on my staff to start using the procedure on my athletes and we figured out that in 4 weeks, we could get body composition changes in 4 weeks that we normally get in 10 weeks. 

TC: How did this tie in with the hyperbaric chamber?

CP: The hyperbaric chamber was to treat the brown recluse bite, so if you do the IV while in the chamber, the IV is more efficient. 

For example, a while back, Milos Sarcev burned himself severely while making a movie. He had 3rd degree burns and looked like burned steak! He was supposed to have a skin graft and stay in the hospital a month, but one of my patients is the director of the burn center at Harvard, so he called the burn center in Arizona and told them to let me do whatever I want, so I gave Milos a shitload of antioxidants including Vitamin C and put him in the hyperbaric chamber. Two days after the treatment, he no longer needed a skin graft and he was released a week after.

I now use it with athletes to improve recovery. It even improves brain function. I was amazed at how mentally sharp I was every time I did an IV in the chamber.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=559121

----------


## Alpha-Male

Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid 
J Blanchard, TN Tozer and M Rowland 
Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, College of Pharmacy, University of Arizona, Tucson, USA. [email protected] 

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is commonly used as a dietary supplement, often in megadoses. However, as the daily oral dose is increased, the concentration of ascorbic acid in the plasma and other body fluids does not increase proportionally, but instead tends to approach an upper limit. For example, when the daily dose is increased from 200 to 2500 mg (from 1.1 to 14.2 mmol) the mean steady state plasma concentration increases only from approximately 12 to 15 mg/L (from 68.1 to 85.2 mumol/L). Published data were reanalyzed with an integrated modeling approach to shed new quantitative light on this phenomenon. *This analysis is based on the renal clearance of ascorbic acid, which rises sharply with increasing plasma concentrations as a result of saturable tubular reabsorption. The analysis indicates that both saturable gastrointestinal absorption and nonlinear renal clearance act additively to produce the ceiling effect in plasma concentrations. As a consequence of this ceiling effect, there is no pharmacokinetic justification for the use of megadoses of ascorbic acid*.

which basically means that your body, mainly your kidney, is having to work OVERTIME in order to filter the stuff out...this is why i think many argue against megadoses of any vitamins/minerals...

----------


## Alpha-Male

and this is DEFINITELY not good...

Effect of megadoses of ascorbic acid on serum and urinary oxalate.

Hatch M, Mulgrew S, Bourke E, Keogh B, Costello J.

Serum and urinary oxalate was determined in 9 normal subjects, ingesting 8 g of ascorbic acid daily. *Serum oxalate levels increased to 310% of control values during supplementation*. Plasma ascrobate levels reached a mean value of 3.6 mg% far exceeding the previously reported plateau level of 1.8 mg%. Urinary oxalate gradually increased during ascorbate intake and 7 days post cessation of ascorbate, rose unexpectedly for all subjects into the hyperoxaluric range.

in case you dont know what oxalate is...(i didnt, until i researched it  :Wink/Grin:  )

"Oxalate is an organic acid with the chemical formula of C204. At physiological pH levels, it forms a soluble salt with sodium and potassium; however, when combined with calcium, it produces an insoluble product termed calcium oxalate, which is the most common chemical compound found in kidney stones. If oxalate did not have a high affinity for calcium and if the calcium oxalate product was not of low solubility, there would be little interest in oxalate or oxalate metabolism. *Urinary oxalate is the single strongest chemical promotor of kidney stone formation*. Ounce for ounce, it is roughly 15-20 times more potent than excess urinary calcium"

----------


## Kärnfysikern

well linus Pauling took 20grams/day for 40 years. he lived to be 93 and was in mint condition all the time. I have seen so many articles dispelling the dangers of vitamin c. Not to mention that we and monkeys are about the only animals that have lost the ability to produce vitamin c. If we produces as much as other animals we would produce 10-20g/day and twice that when stressed.

check my other ascorbic acid thread it deals with some of the dangers like kidney stone

----------


## Kärnfysikern

lol alpha man realy read my other thread before posting more

----------


## Kärnfysikern

dont have the energy to once again pull out all the articles showing it DONT cause kidney stones. it acctualy can helt PREVENT them.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

not to mentiuon the fact that the body need ALOT more vitamin c when under stress/sic. Like when curing polio klenner used something like 200g/day IV. When having a flue the bowel tollerance(a sign of any ascorbic acid passing through non oxidized)can increase 10 fold as a result of the extra free radicals the disease produces.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

bascily for oxalate to produce kidney stones the urine has to be at a certain PH. Ascorib acid supplementation makes sure the urine is below that so it cant happen. It doesnt matter that the urin oxalate is increased by 20 times. It just passes through

----------


## Kärnfysikern

the other thread is here

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=175076

----------


## Alpha-Male

bro, honestly, i dont want to...ive seen that study on the marathon runners, and i look at it like this: who know how defecient their diets or bodies were in Vitamin C, and i think running a marathon is WAY more catabolic than a 45 minute workout with weights...i can also tell you this, my grandfather lived until the age of 89, and he drank massive amounts of Wild Turkey and smoked packs of cigarettes a day since he was in his early twenties...does that mean im gonna try and get away with the same thing? i can tell you for a fact, the last study i posted, not the kidney stone one, but the one before, should tell you how hard your organs are going to be working in order to keep your plasma levels of that vitamin at a certain level...and brother, THAT IS NOT GOOD! regardless of any other benefit, as long as your diet is clean, and maybe supplemented with a good Multi, i GUARANTEE your gains are not going to eclipse another bro who's training/eating/supplementing just as hard, simply cuz your OVERdosing yourself with a vitamin...so sorry, i guess im retracting my earlier statements, i really dont think megadoses of vitamins and minerals can be beneficial...but at least it will give me something to do, playing devil's advocate to all your posts  :Wink/Grin:  oh, and another thing, ive personally known many bros get down to that kind of bf%, WITHOUT MEGADOSING VITAMINS, and i'm sure Swole knows a few as well...

good luck, and peace...

AM

----------


## Kärnfysikern

lol belive me Im not saying it is required and I know of enough respected scientist and docs that say its safe. No where in your studie do they hint of organ damage. There is practicly no stress on the body by adding extra vitamin c. 

what do you think of poliquin and his oppinion. I mean he does afterall coach OLYMPIC ATHLETHES in another article by him he states that he feels vitamin c theraypy gives a 30% advantage over those that doesnt do it. I have posted that one in this forum as well.

I wouldnt be so pro vitamin c if I didnt firmly belive its totaly safe and very benifical. Thats why I am experimenting with myself, since I know its safe.

Sure one could get cut without it. So can you without clen , t-3, steroids , ephedra ect. But one other addition to the arselan is always good.

Notice how poliquin got down from 6%bf to 2,8% bf without diet change simply because of vitamin c.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

btw hooker thinks that vitamin c is as good as cytadren at lowering cortisol(read his cytadre profile) so Im not the only nutcase thinking it can be benifical  :LOL:

----------


## Kärnfysikern

Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1993;67(5):426-30. Related Articles, Links 


Effect of antioxidant vitamin supplementation on muscle function after eccentric exercise.

Jakeman P, Maxwell S.

Applied Physiology Research Unit, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, UK.

This study investigated the effects of antioxidant vitamin supplementation upon muscle contractile function following eccentric exercise and was performed double blind. Twenty-four physically active young subjects ingested either placebo (400 mg; n = 8), vitamin E (400 mg; n = 8) or vitamin C (400 mg; n = 8) for 21 days prior to and for 7 days after performing 60 min of box-stepping exercise. Contractile function of the triceps surae was assessed by the measurement of maximal voluntary contraction (MVC) and the ratio of the force generated at 20 Hz and 50 Hz tetanic stimulation before and after eccentric exercise and for 7 days during recovery. Following eccentric exercise, MVC decreased to 75 (4)% [mean (SE); n = 24; P < 0.05] of the preexercise values and the 20/50 Hz ratio of tetanic tension from 0.76 (0.01) to 0.49 (0.03) [mean (SE); n = 24; P < 0.05). Compared to the placebo group no significant changes in MVC were observed immediately post-exercise, though recovery of MVC in the first 24 h post-exercise was greater in the group supplemented with vitamin C. The decrease in 20/50 Hz ratio of tetanic tension was significantly less (P < 0.05) post-exercise and in the initial phase of recovery in subjects supplemented with vitamin C but not with vitamin E. These data suggest that prior vitamin C supplementation may exert a protective effect against eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage.

Publication Types: 
Clinical Trial 
Randomized Controlled Trial 

PMID: 8299614 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------


## Kärnfysikern

Pain. 1992 Sep;50(3):317-21. Related Articles, Links 


An effect of ascorbic acid on delayed-onset muscle soreness.

Kaminski M, Boal R.

Division of Basic Sciences, Western States Chiropractic College, Portland, OR 97230.

Delayed-onset muscle soreness following strenuous use of the posterior calf muscles was studied to determine if ascorbic acid might have an effect on the appearance of this familiar pain. A double-blind, randomized, crossover study compared the soreness in subjects taking ascorbic acid against those taking a lactose placebo. Visual analog scales were used in conjunction with a variety of pain-challenging methods, and the results indicated a significant difference between experimental and placebo groups at the height of soreness. Typical soreness abatement scores of 25-44% were observed. A sample size of 19, lack of an untreated control group as well as the singular nature of the exercise and its intensity were considered limitations of the study.

Publication Types: 
Clinical Trial 
Randomized Controlled Trial 

PMID: 1280803 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------


## Alpha-Male

please, you know that last study is crap...but do me a favor, post, for me, the polquin studies PROVING that he went from 6% to 3% JUST by adding Vitamin C...sorry, but i call total bullshit on that...and that study for Vitamin C and MVC, dood, they were only taking 500mg, certainly not a megadose, and certainly an amount you can get from a healthy diet, and again, maximal voluntary contraction doesnt take anything such as previous workout history, current strength/conditioning, etc. into account, so honestly, i think that study is crap too...and as far as Hooker goes, i dont always count his word as automatic gold either, as he's well aware, and that study, again, was with marathon runners, not bodybuilders, and common sense leads me to believe that there is a difference...i dont think any LONGTERM studies have been done on the effects of megadoses on our organs, and that is the most important factor here...your liver or kidney just doesnt stop working over night my friend...

----------


## Kärnfysikern

I have no clue why you are so dead set against this. Do a google search for Dr kleener and polio. Read Dr levy's books. Read Linus Paulings books. Nothing I say hold as much weight as the word of someone that has won not only one but 2 nobel prizes!!

Read why Linus Pauling and Levy thinks we need WAY more vitamin c then the RDI. Today atleast I dont have the energy do debate this.

Almost NO studies have been done on mega dosing. Only one I am familiar with is a studie mentioned in Paulings book where a doctor put alot of people on 5 or 10grams/Day for 4 years to se if they would get sic less often then the control group. go to the librabry and pic upp "vitamin c and the comon cold"

----------


## Kärnfysikern

also the simpel fact that this is something not yet scientificly explored is what makes it fun. Megadosing of vitamin c is more or less unknown except by the few pioneers. I am trying to find out if it has any benifit for us bodybuilders. Poliquin seems to think so and atleast for me his words mean ALOT considering who he is and what he do for a living.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

did you read that link I gave you in this thread to the first chapter of Dr Levy's book?

----------


## Alpha-Male

calm down guy, i'm just playing the oppostie side of the coin here...i'm not dead set against it, it's just that i havent seen any proof yet, at least nothing substantial...all i asked was if you could post Polquin's studies/articles for me, but i guess i'll do it myself...i thought, in a way, i was helping you, since you were thinking of posting about these things, i was under the impression you didnt want to be one-sided, and fail to present all aspects of it's usage...

----------


## Kärnfysikern

lol sorry bro Im in a very bad mood today. Dont know why Im just pissed at everything and everyone today and have a horrible headaches. Its very fun debating I guess today just isnt a good day.

apologies bro.


Poliquin hasnt realy done any medicaly verified studie as far as I know. I have only read when he mentions his methods. I will dig upp the other one

----------


## Kärnfysikern

here is the other article where he mentions vitamin c

if there is anything else by him I havent found it either. Hooker mentions some other article but I cant find it. 

http://www.bodyofscience.com/issues/...5_poliquin.pdf

----------


## Kärnfysikern

btw you are helping me. This discussion today have show other things to me about vit c that I didnt even know about before  :Strong Smiley:

----------


## Alpha-Male

yeah, i just found that interview, i must admit, it sounds very intriguing, but until this guy publishes some hard evidence in a medical journal, i really have to call bullshit...but i'm going to continue to research as much as i can, to "assist" you in your posts...  :LOL:

----------


## Kärnfysikern

lol plz do  :Smilie:  btw thrower on this forum has seen this done and he can testify about the fat reductiuon from it. Check the anabolic lab forum and my thread "anyone comment on this page"

----------


## Alpha-Male

dood, didnt Poliquin use IVs for his studies? that's the difference here bro, cuz when you megadose orally, your plasma levels are never going to reach levels anywhere near to those of an IV administration...very interesting indeed!

----------


## Alpha-Male

i just found this...

Megadose of vitamin C delays insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults
CS Johnston and MF Yen 
Department of Family Resources and Human Development, Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-2502. 

The effect of a megadose of ascorbic acid (AA) on glucose and insulin responses after an oral-glucose-tolerance test (OGTT) is unknown. With a double-blind, placebo-controlled design, nine normoglycemic subjects (22 +/- 1 y, mean +/- SEM) consumed AA (2 g/d) or placebo for 2 wk after a 2-wk washout period with placebo, and an OGTT was performed after an overnight fast. This 4-wk protocol was repeated in a crossover fashion. Plasma glucose was significantly elevated 1-h postprandial in vitamin C-saturated subjects vs those taking a placebo. The plasma insulin response curve was shifted rightward in vitamin C-saturated subjects relative to baseline: plasma insulin was significantly depressed at 0.5 h postprandial but significantly elevated at 2 h postprandial. *These data indicate that elevated plasma AA delays the insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults*, thereby prolonging the postprandial hyperglycemia. These effects might be partially explained by the competitive inhibition of glucose transfer into pancreatic beta cells by high concentrations of circulating AA.

now after a workout, arent we trying to spike insulin levels? so wouldnt this be a negative?

----------


## Kärnfysikern

yes that does look/sound negative. hmmm

----------


## Kärnfysikern

I am begining to think that post workout isnt a good time to take ascorbic acid. Maby its better to spread it out over the rest of the day

----------


## Kärnfysikern

here is by the way a studie about vitamin c and flu that I like

The effectiveness of vitamin C in preventing and relieving the symptoms of virus-induced respiratory infections.

Gorton HC, Jarvis K.

BACKGROUND: An ever increasing demand to evaluate the effect of dietary supplements on specific health conditions by use of a "significant scientific" standard has prompted the publication of this study. OBJECTIVE: To study the effect of megadose Vitamin C in preventing and relieving cold and flu symptoms in a test group compared with a control group. DESIGN: Prospective, controlled study of students in a technical training facility. SUBJECTS: A total of 463 students ranging in age from 18 to 32 years made up the control group. A total of 252 students ranging in age from 18 to 30 years made up the experimental or test group. METHOD: Investigators tracked the number of reports of cold and flu symptoms among the 1991 test population of the facility compared with the reports of like symptoms among the 1990 control population. Those in the control population reporting symptoms were treated with pain relievers and decongestants, whereas those in the test population reporting symptoms were treated with hourly doses of 1000 mg of Vitamin C for the first 6 hours and then 3 times daily thereafter. Those not reporting symptoms in the test group were also administered 1000-mg doses 3 times daily. RESULTS: Overall, reported flu and cold symptoms in the test group decreased 85% compared with the control group after the administration of megadose Vitamin C. CONCLUSION: Vitamin C in megadoses administered before or after the appearance of cold and flu symptoms relieved and prevented the symptoms in the test population compared with the control group.

Publication Types: 
Clinical Trial 
Controlled Clinical Trial 

PMID: 10543583 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------


## Kärnfysikern

Its strange that the insulin peak was delayed. I mean how the **** can that happen? Dont understand the mechanism.

I know vit c increases insulin sensitivity. But that shouldnt delay the peak

Taehan Kanho Hakhoe Chi. 2003 Apr;33(2):170-8. Related Articles, Links 


[Effect of vitamin C supplementation on blood sugar and antioxidative status in types II diabetes mellitus patients]

[Article in Korean]

Park HS, Lee YM.

Department of Nursing, College of Medicine, Pusan National University, Korea.

PURPOSE: This study was to determine the effect of oral vitamin C supplements on blood sugar and antioxidative status in Types II diabetes mellitus patients. METHOD: Data for the study were collected from June 24 to August 31, 2001. Participants(31) took 1 g/day vitamin C for 4 weeks, after a 1 - week taking no Vitamin C, followed by Vitamin C 3 g/day for 4 weeks. A baseline blood sample was obtained following a 12 hour overnight fast and at the end of each 4 week Vitamin C administration. Blood samples were taken for plasma vitamin C concentration, fasting blood sugar, HbA1c, superoxide scavenging activity and hydrogen peroxide scavenging activity. The data were analyzed by SPSS for repeated measures ANOVA. RESULT: Plasma vitamin C concentration was significantly increased over dose(F=3.316, p=.043). Fasting blood sugar and HbA1c was significantly decreased over dose(F=13.192, p=.000; F=11.995, p=.000). Superoxide scavenging activity and hydrogen peroxide scavenging activity was significantly increased over dose(F=486.138, p=.000; F=177.704, p=.000). CONCLUSION: The results suggest that megadose vitamin C supplementation may have a beneficial effect in diabetes mellitus patients on both glycemic control and antioxidant status. Thus dietary measures to increase plasma vitamin C may be an important health strategy for reducing the compliance of diabetic patients.

PMID: 15314445 [PubMed]

----------


## Alpha-Male

> Its strange that the insulin peak was delayed. I mean how the **** can that happen? Dont understand the mechanism.
> 
> I know vit c increases insulin sensitivity. But that shouldnt delay the peak
> 
> Taehan Kanho Hakhoe Chi. 2003 Apr;33(2):170-8. Related Articles, Links 
> 
> 
> [Effect of vitamin C supplementation on blood sugar and antioxidative status in types II diabetes mellitus patients]
> 
> ...


well, it lowered blood glucose in a type II diabetic (who is hypreglycemic and whose pancreas is working overtime to produce more and more insulin), so wouldnt that suggest that i would lower insulin as well?

----------


## Kärnfysikern

yes but so does R-ala, cinnamon, metformin to mention a few. I dont think it would delay the insulin peak just make the peak lower.

Lowering insulin isnt a bad thing aslong as insulin sensitivity is going upp. But delaying the peak I cant figure that out  :Don't know:

----------


## Alpha-Male

[QUOTE=johan]. I dont think it would delay the insulin peak just make the peak lower.

QUOTE]

exactly, so taking any of those post workout wouldnt be recommended, right?

----------


## Kärnfysikern

are you talking about things that increases insulin sensitivity? In that case they are benificial since they increase the cells ability to respond to insulin so less insulin is needed for the same effect? 

if you mean the delayed peak Im guessing it would be a bad thing pwo but maby some mechanism is at work here that I dont understand. I would have to know if other slin sensitivity boosters also delay insulin peaks.

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## Alpha-Male

increased insulin sensitivity = less insulin needed = suppression/delay???

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## Kärnfysikern

if insulin sensitivity becomes higher the body will release less insulin yes. Thats why metformin works to keep non insulin dependant diabetes at check since it lowers the stress on the pancrea by allowing it to lower production. But is this what you are asking? 

I dont think the peak will be delayed by increase insulin sensitivity. Not as far as I know. It must be something happening only with vitamin c.

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## Kärnfysikern

this one doesnt deal with megadosage of vitamin c but shows how important good levels of vitamin c is for us

J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Jun;24(3):158-65. Related Articles, Links 


Strategies for healthy weight loss: from vitamin C to the glycemic response.

Johnston CS.

Department of Nutrition, Arizona State University East, 7001 E. Williams Field Rd., Mesa, AZ 85212, USA. [email protected]

America is experiencing a major obesity epidemic. The ramifications of this epidemic are immense since obesity is associated with chronic metabolic abnormalities such as insulin resistance, dyslipidemia, and heart disease. Reduced physical activity and/or increased energy intakes are important factors in this epidemic. Additionally, a genetic susceptibility to obesity is associated with gene polymorphisms affecting biochemical pathways that regulate fat oxidation, energy expenditure, or energy intake. However, these pathways are also impacted by specific foods and nutrients. Vitamin C status is inversely related to body mass. * Individuals with adequate vitamin C status oxidize 30% more fat during a moderate exercise bout than individuals with low vitamin C status;* thus, vitamin C depleted individuals may be more resistant to fat mass loss. Food choices can impact post-meal satiety and hunger. High-protein foods promote postprandial thermogenesis and greater satiety as compared to high-carbohydrate, low-fat foods; thus, diet regimens high in protein foods may improve diet compliance and diet effectiveness. Vinegar and peanut ingestion can reduce the glycemic effect of a meal, a phenomenon that has been related to satiety and reduced food consumption. Thus, the effectiveness of regular exercise and a prudent diet for weight loss may be enhanced by attention to specific diet details.

PMID: 15930480 [PubMed - in process]

----------


## Alpha-Male

yeah, i'm sure that low status of any vitamin can be detrimental to anyone, especially those of us looking to stay healthy and build muscle...damn, all this research is giving me a headache...i must admit, ive only taken A&P I and II, so i'm def. no expert on metabolism/endocrinology, so i dont have a very firm grasp on alot of this stuff either...but i do enjoy learning...keep it up bro...

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## Kärnfysikern

lol my head is hurting to. Im learning all these terms as we are talking. GLUT-4, ROS, **** all those things I had no clue what they where before today  :LOL:

----------


## Kärnfysikern

Did a chest/delt/tri/back today. I am the most self critical person in existance but today I looked "denser" then usual. I cant explain it any other way. Not more ripped, not more vascular just a harder, denser more solid look. Might be in my head also. Anyway was a good workout. Hopefully I will be able to hit the iron good again after all the injuries. My damn tailbone is still a bit ****ed upp though.

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## Kärnfysikern

migth imagine the look though I guess  :LOL:

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## IronFreakX

how much are u using rite now?

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## Kärnfysikern

15grams day. Gonna take 20grams today and se if it exceeds bowel tollerance. zipping on 5 grams right now

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## IronFreakX

Ive been taking bout 10 grams a day the last week....I feel fvcking good!!! wanna up it to 20-30 grams
and theyre gonna be getting the IM or IV soon im gonna try 30g like the poliquin dude!!

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## Kärnfysikern

with oral use increase slowely. sooner or later you will get to the point where you get diharrea and anything above that (oraly) is a waste.

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## Kärnfysikern

and plz when you do the im or iv tell someone to keep an eye for you. you can go hyploglycemic. Make sure to ask them what ph the solution is. If its below 5 I wouldnt use it to be honest.

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## IronFreakX

Im not sure theyll know what to do  :LOL: 
what should they do?? if i faint or smth....??

----------


## Kärnfysikern

well you should make sure to zip on some kind of juice or a dextrose drink or something like that all the time so you have a steady flow of carbs. If you do faint I have no ****ing clue. a glucagon shot would be used by pharamedics along with a glucose drip. Not that I think it can cause that severe and rapid hypoglycemia but since I dont know much about this I dont dare to give any advice realy.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

I can now to 100% verify that its possible to go a bit hypo with vitamin c.

I have taken 20grams of vitamin c today. 5grams during breakfast, 5grams in a shake as my third meal, 5grams 1 hour before workout and 5 grams 45 minutes post workout. I am now slightely hypo but just took a bit of dextrose to compensate. I didnt eat any carbs pre workout but took 100g dextrose post workout and 30grams of oatmeal ppwo. Doesnt seem like that is enough for me.

Vitamin c at these dosages must boost insulin sensitivity ALOT. I have tried metformin, r-ala, cinnamon, vanadyl. All those things that boost slin sensitivity often in combination and neither of them gives me hypo signs like vitamin c at high dosage. 

If I wasnt living alone I would find out if its possible to get real bad hypo from vit c but I dont want to risk it now when living alone. I feel now like I would after maby 6-7 IU of slin and beeing late for my ppwo meal.

Also for some reason I dont feel ANY hypo signs from vitamin c on rest days even when I eat less then 20g carbs/day so Im curious about 2 things now.

1. Either I need to get upp to around 20g to feel this since I havent taken more then 15 g max on a rest day

OR

2. Somehow workingout makes the slin sensitivity bosting effect of vitamin c alot more pronounced. But why and how in that case?

I will find out by taking 20+grams on my next rest day.

If writing odd or anything now its because of the hypo it always makes me nervous, jittery and gives me a headache.

----------


## dazbo

> I am begining to think that post workout isnt a good time to take ascorbic acid. Maby its better to spread it out over the rest of the day



Hmmmmm.............Did I not say this in post number 25 and number 28 ???

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Kärnfysikern

yes but the later studies where more convincing I just dont trust fully those kinds of articles anymore :Smilie: 

But I am still not convinced and I am not sure if the cortisol lowering effect would be greater and still make it more anabolic then catabolic. Something I will have to find out by experimenting with myself. To bad Dr Levy never answered my e-mail.

----------


## Alpha-Male

Megadose of vitamin C delays insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults
CS Johnston and MF Yen 
Department of Family Resources and Human Development, Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-2502. 

The effect of a megadose of ascorbic acid (AA) on glucose and insulin responses after an oral-glucose-tolerance test (OGTT) is unknown. With a double-blind, placebo-controlled design, nine normoglycemic subjects (22 +/- 1 y, mean +/- SEM) consumed AA (2 g/d) or placebo for 2 wk after a 2-wk washout period with placebo, and an OGTT was performed after an overnight fast. This 4-wk protocol was repeated in a crossover fashion. Plasma glucose was significantly elevated 1-h postprandial in vitamin C-saturated subjects vs those taking a placebo. The plasma insulin response curve was shifted rightward in vitamin C-saturated subjects relative to baseline: plasma insulin was significantly depressed at 0.5 h postprandial but significantly elevated at 2 h postprandial. These data indicate that elevated plasma AA delays the insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults, thereby prolonging the postprandial hyperglycemia. *These effects might be partially explained by the competitive inhibition of glucose transfer into pancreatic beta cells by high concentrations of circulating AA*. 

this is a previous post, but is in response to the low blood sugar...as far as spreading it out, i dont think that matters, at least according to this study...

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## Kärnfysikern

Yupp remember that one from our discussion.
That studie realy doesnt mention any increase in insulin sensitivity if I read it right.  :Don't know:  Just a delay of the insulin peak. 
I have read other stuff about its effect on insulin sensitivity though. I just didnt think it would be THAT noticable at 20grams/Day.

But it makes sense that aa can compete with glucose on receptor sites since a high carb diet is known to do the same with aa. Glucose and aa is very closely related chemicaly and aa is even transported by the different glut's if I understand most of what I have read so far.

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## Alpha-Male

i've pulled some studies that mention it's insulin sensitivity-increasing effects, but i cannot view the full-text of the article without paying...and that aint gonna happen...guess i'll keep searchin'

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## Kärnfysikern

let me se the abstracts. I can probably get them through the university

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## Alpha-Male

naw, there just small excerpts when i google (scholar)...i cant even see the abstracts...just type in "megadoses ascorbic acid insulin sensitivity" and see if you can view more...

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## Kärnfysikern

weill have to ask the uni library first how to acess all that and if the uni pays or if I have to pay(since Im not doing anything medicin related maby they wont allow me to se everything).

I atleast have axess to a IMENSE volume of book through the uni library internet service its like thousdans of books about nutrition, medicin ect. A gold mine.

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## Kärnfysikern

morning weight today 89kg. I have lost one kg(2,2ibs) compered to the begining of last week  :Strong Smiley: 

My tailbones is still ****ed so no leg training for me god damn it.

----------


## co2boi

> Right now Im chugging down around 2 grams of askorbic acid in 1,5 liters of water and then Il head for the gym(on a empty stomach). I now have 2 post workout shakes


That's pretty hardcore bro. Askorbic acid is used for developing photos  :Smilie:

----------


## IronFreakX

took 4 grams b4 bed...effervecent tabs
took 6grams 2day
3 with first meal 3 with second 
going to the gym in a little over an hour
feeling pumped.....
also took 1000mcg b-12 IM on saturday 
will probably take another one real soon 
VITAMINS ARE THE SHIT!!!!!

----------


## dazbo

Just wondering, what are your oppinions on using a lot of Vit C (say above 3g daily) whilst taking orals in order to protect the liver and kidneys ?? After all, thats one of the positives about it - how it flushs them out and all the other anti-oxidant effects. What do you think is better - milk thistle, or vit c at this job ??

The reason why I ask, is, Ive seen a study stating that milk thistle did little help in protecting the liver, although I cant find this now!!!

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## Kärnfysikern

I havent read anything about vitamin c and liver/kidney so I cant comment on it realy :Frown:  I think r-ala is the best to protect liver.

if I find something about liver protection from vitamin c I will let you know bro.

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## Alpha-Male

hey Daz, check in the steroids forum under milk thistle, i posted a few studies showing that R-lipoic acid and SAMe have been shown to be more effective in some cases for liver protection, however, milk thistle is still good (silymarin)...i personally advocate all three, especially during an oral run...

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## Kärnfysikern

it is a diuretic so it would help to flush things through the kidney thats for sure. but I dont know if kidney or liver damage is done via free radicals. Thats something I have never realy read about  :Don't know:  if it is then vitamin c would be awsome since in the dosage Im talking about its the best anti oxidant there is.

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## dazbo

I found this - 

"Ascorbic acid lowers Zinc directly, and it lowers it indirectly by supporting iron uptake, so while higher
intake of Vitamin C would likely be beneficial for those suffering from some forms of anemia, leukemia,

left-sided ovarian cysts, or from prostatitis, it could compromise benign prostatic hypertrophy, certain

liver conditions (hemochromatosis), or more serious kidney disease (renal failure). "

Not sure exactly what it means but if you can decipher it........

Also - 

"By lowering manganese, Vitamin C affects glycogen stores in the liver, decreasing the liver's ability

to store larger amounts. Manganese has some control over the liver's ability to break down estrogen,

so too much Vitamin C can affect the length of the menstrual cycle and worsen low estrogenic-types

of PMS. On the other hand, congestive liver disease of the right large liver lobe will benefit from a
greater intake of Vitamin C by reducing the symptoms of high estrogenic-types of PMS, while at the
same time reducing the risk of developing estrogen-sensitive types of cancers or (fibroid) tumors

resulting from a lifelong higher mean average of estrogen. "

Again, may not apply to us ?!???

http://www.acu-cell.com/vitc.html

----------


## dazbo

Antioxidants that Reduce Free-Radical Damage
Vitamin C. Vitamin C is a potent antioxidant that is found naturally in many fruits and vegetables. According to Garg et al. (2000), vitamin C has protective effects against liver oxidative damage, particularly when used in combination with vitamin E. Researchers have found inadequate levels of vitamin C in patients with degenerative diseases. Garg et al. (2000) found that supplementation in rats lowered plasma and liver lipid peroxidation, normalized plasma vitamin C levels, and raised vitamin E above normal levels.

Another more helpfull piece - think that answers liver protection Q from Vit C

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-125b.shtml

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## Kärnfysikern

yeah the last thing seems to make it clear. and they are probably not even using a tenth of the dosage Im talking about  :Strong Smiley:  

il read the first one in a bit

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## Kärnfysikern

interesting about copper and zink. I always thought vit c increases zink absorbation. Ohh well I take 60-90mg of zink everday anyway  :Smilie:  I also think he overexagerates the thing about copper. I have never ever heard anyone beeing deficit in copper.

Il read more about that. thanks for the link bro.

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## Kärnfysikern

amazing that it decreases the livers ability to store glycoen thats a big advantage

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## dazbo

Yeah I agree with the copper bit - theres so much used in pipes it gets in our waters and therefore how can we be deficient of it ????

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## Kärnfysikern

exactly most of us probably have to much. only during very special conditions do i think copper depletion is a issue. and when it comes to zink. Im guessing most of us supplement with zink anyway. I sure do its very important for my sleep

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## Alpha-Male

> Antioxidants that Reduce Free-Radical Damage
> Vitamin C. Vitamin C is a potent antioxidant that is found naturally in many fruits and vegetables. According to Garg et al. (2000), vitamin C has protective effects against liver oxidative damage, particularly when used in combination with vitamin E. Researchers have found inadequate levels of vitamin C in patients with *degenerative diseases*. Garg et al. (2000) found that supplementation in rats lowered plasma and liver lipid peroxidation, normalized plasma vitamin C levels, and raised vitamin E above normal levels.
> 
> Another more helpfull piece - think that answers liver protection Q from Vit C
> 
> http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-125b.shtml


i'm telling you, you'll see this across the board when it comes to vitamins and minerals...those who are defecient are really the ones who benefit from supplementation...i know it's not a popular belief shared on this thread, but ahh well...

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## Kärnfysikern

I think the right ammount of minerals and vitamins can be the cure for just about anything almost. the foundation of orthomolecular medicin

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## Kärnfysikern

btw alpha here is a good read
http://www.internetwks.com/owen/heart.htm

Linus Pauling and your Heart 
(c) 1996 Owen R. Fonorow 
At the age of 93, dual Nobel prize winning scientist Linus Pauling, well known for advocating the healthful benefits of vitamin C, anounced that, "we've got to the point where I think we can get almost complete control of cardiovascular disease, heart attacks and strokes." Now, several years later, as evidence mounts, Linus Pauling's belief is being affirmed. 

A provocative series of papers was published by Dr. G. C. Willis and coworkers starting in 1953 that showed the importance of ascorbic acid in the maintenance of the arterial walls (the intima). Any factor disturbing vitamin C metabolism results in wall injury with subsequent fatlike deposits. In his 1953 paper, Willis concludes that acute or chronic vitamin C deficiency in guinea pigs produces atheroslcerosis and closely simulates the human form of the disease. 

In 1954 the Willis group studied the actual progression of atherosclerotic plaques in living patients by a serial X-ray technique. The study demonstrated a reduction in atherosclerotic plaque lesions in the group of vitamin C patients not observed in the controls. Based on these careful studies, Willis announced that "Massive does of parenteral ascorbic acid (vitamin C) may be of therapeutic value in the treatment of atherosclerosis and the prevention of intimal hemorhage and thrombosis." This announcement was generally ignored by the medical community. 

Recently, another study by Joseph Vita, M.D., an associate professor of medicine at Boston University school of Medicine found that vitamin C improved blood-vessel dilation in patients with coronary artery disease. Vita found that 2000 mg of vitamin C, (which is approximately 30 times the U. S. RDA) open arteries by almost 10% - more than some medical treatments. 

In another recent study, Thomas Heitzer, M.D., and his colleagues at the University of Freiburg, Germany, compared blood flow in the forearm brachial arteries of 10 healthy male non-smokers and 10 male chronic smokers after infusing two chemicals, followed by injections of vitamin C. The study published in the Journal Circulation of the American Heart Association (AHA), showed that vitamin C injected into the blood stream "almost completely reverses endothelial dysfunction in chronic smokers." 

It has been widely recognized for at least a decade that endothelial lesions (damage to the walls of blood vessels) are a necessary precondition for the development of atherosclerotic plaques. Oxidized LDL cholesterol and vitamin deficiencies have been theorized to cause these lesions. 

According to the AHA: Injured endothelial cells may initiate an inflammatory response leading to increased deposits of "bad" cholesterol and other substances in the artery wall -- a process known as atherosclerosis, which can lead to coronary heart disease and heart attack. The author believes that because Vitamin C in the blood stream has been reliably shown to correct this precondition, it can be concluded that Linus Pauling analysis was correct: Vitamin C in the blood stream is preventative against cardiovascular disease (CVD). 

During the 1970s, Vitamin C consumption in the U.S. rose by 300%. Mortality from heart disease decreased by 30%. The U.S. was the only country during this time frame with a significant drop in heart disease fatalities. In 1992 Dr. Enstrom and colleagues (UCLA) showed (in over 11,000 people) that increased intake of vitamin C reduces the death rate from heart disease by nearly half and prolongs life for more than six years. 

The most recent report from the British Medical Journal reported on a study of 1,605 randomly selected men in Finland, aged 42 to 60 years. The study was conducted between 1984 and 1989. None of the men had evidence of pre-existing heart disease. After adjusting for other confounding factors, men who were deficient in vitamin C had 3.5 times more heart attacks then men who were not deficient in vitamin C. The scientists' conclusion was, "Vitamin C deficiency, as assessed by low plasma ascorbate concentration, is a risk factor for coronary heart disease." British Medical Journal (Vol 314, Issue 708, 1997). 

LIPOPROTEIN(a) 
There is a strange variant of the well known LDL (bad) cholesterol in the blood of human beings. This LDL look-alike is not present in the blood of most animals. Dr. Matthias Rath, M.D. was a member of the German team that discovered this substance, called Lipoprotein(a) (Lp(a)), is the primary constituent of plaque in post-mortem human aortas. A finding recently verified at Baylor University Medical School, according to Dr. Rath. 
Dr. Pauling suggests that Lp(a), rather than LDL cholesterol, is the real danger to human health. Levels of Lp(a) in the blood are associated with the level of vitamin C in the body. Recently, a study published in the August 21, 1996 Journal of the American Medical Association again confirmed that Lp(a) is an independent risk factor in cardiovascular disease. Since 1994, some 986 Lp(a) studies have implicated the highly atherogenic Lp(a) as a risk factor. 

LP(a) A SURROGATE FOR VITAMIN C 
The Pauling/Rath theory of heart disease claims that Lp(a), with its "sticky" surface that makes it adhere to damaged blood vessels, acts as a surrogate for chronic low levels of vitamin C in human beings. Pauling claims that heart disease begins when there is not sufficient Vitamin C to support collagen synthesis. Both vitamin C and Lp(a) promote the "structural integrity" of blood vessels. When collagen synthesis is inadequate due to lack of vitamin C, Lp(a) "repairs" the areas of deficiency -- somewhat like a "plaster cast." This healing process forms what are known as plaques. 
Coronary arteries are squeezed by the heartbeat. Rath likens the stress to that of stepping on a garden hose thousands of times every day, day in and day out. Coronary arteries lacking collagen and elastin due to chronic vitamin C deficiency are more susceptible to damage from this kind of stress. If blood vessels that are kept strong by an optimum intake of vitamin C,(and other antioxidants), lesions will not develop. If lesions do not develop, according to theory, heart disease does not develop. 

According to Nobel prize winning physicist Richard Feynman: 

"The principle of science, the definition, almost, is the following: The test of all knowledge is experiment. Experiment is the sole judge of scientific "truth." 
Most animals produce their own vitamin C, and according to Pauling, do not have Lp(a) in their blood. However, guinea pigs, like humans, do not produce their own vitamin C. If these animals a deprived of all vitamin C they die a horrible death in two weeks. Pauling and Rath wondered whether they also produce Lp(a) like we humans. An experiment to test theory was conducted at the Linus Pauling Institute of Science and Medicine. 

Laboratory guinea pigs were divided into two groups. One group, all who were given small amounts of vitamin C (roughly equivalent to the U. S. RDA) Lp(a) was detected and as levels rose over the course of their lifetimes the animals developed atherosclerosis. The pathology of the disease is equivalent with human atherosclerosis. 

Animals in the other group (on the same diet) were given the human equivalent of 3000-5000 mgs/day of vitamin C. These animals did not develop the disease and Lp(a) levels remained low. The only difference between the two groups was the vitamin C. Too little vitamin C made all the difference. This experimental work (confirming the earlier findings by Willis) lead to the first U.S. patent for reversing heart disease without surgery in 1994. 

Competing theories must be able to explain why heart disease does not occur in animals, and why atherosclerotic plaques form mostly in areas of high mechanical stress, rather than randomly throughout the body. 

L-LYSINE 
The key to a possible "non surgical" cure for heart disease came when highly regarded biochemists and chemists discovered that the amino acid, lysine, is contained in a protein in artery walls. Lysine residues are exposed when the arterial wall is damaged. L-lysine is one of the twenty essential amino acids, and lipoprotein-(a) binds to it. 
Said Pauling, "knowing that lysyl residues are what causes lipoprotein-(a) to get stuck to the wall of the artery and form atherosclerotic plaques, any physical chemist would say at once that the thing to do is prevent that by putting the amino acid lysine in the blood to a greater extent than it is normally." 


"You need lysine to be alive, is is essential, you have to get about 1 gram a day to keep in protein balance, but you can take lysine, pure lysine, a perfectly non toxic substance in food [as supplements], and that puts extra lysine molecules in the blood. They enter into competition with the lysyl residues on the wall of arteries and accordingly count to prevent Lp(a) from being deposited or even will work to pull it loose and destroy atherosclerotic plaques." 
Pauling filmed a video tape of his lecture on Heart Disease at the age of 92 shortly before his death. On this video Pauling cites three cases were a vitamin C and l-lysine treatment worked miraculously. I know the patient in the following case. Before and after surgery verified the efficacy of the vitamin C and l-lysine treatment. 

Rich B. of Shorewood Illinois had a routine physical exam recently. His doctor discovered blockage in both of his Carotid arteries. Ultrasound showed 90% on one side; 50-60% on the other. Two operations were scheduled. In May 1996 the expected 90% blockage was found and the white plaque removed and the doctor showed it to Rich and his wife. The second operation was scheduled for a month later in June. Rich's wife Betty, was able to convince Rich after the first operation to follow Pauling's recommendations, i.e., to take both vitamin C and the essential amino acid L-lysine. He consumed approximately 1/2 of Linus Pauling's recommended dosage of both vitamin C and L-lysine (or 2500 mg of each) every day for that month. Rich's second operation was performed in June. His doctors were astounded. While the first operation showed no bruises, Rich is bruised from the second up and down his neck; they couldn't find a blockage they knew "had to be there." His carotid arteries had apparently cleared! (Betty and Rich never mentioned the vitamin C/Lysine therapy to their doctor, but we have since written to him asking for copies of the relevant medical records, and permission to use them on the internet.) 

Rich's case of a few weeks ago is telling. Linus Pauling himself reported similar experience in periods as short as 2-4 weeks. More and more reports attest to the pronounced effect of this treatment, especially on patients with severe disease. 

When Pauling was asked if he really thought this development represented the cure for heart disease, he responded: 

"I think so. Yes. Now Ive got to the point where I think we can get almost complete control of cardiovascular disease, heart attacks and strokes by the proper use of vitamin C and Lysine. It can prevent cardiovascular disease and even cure it. If you are at risk of heart disease, or if there is a history of heart disease in your family, if your father or other members of the family died of a heart attack or stroke or whatever, or if you have a mild heart attack yourself then you had better be taking vitamin C and Lysine." 
Linus Pauling's one hour lecture is now available on VHS video from the Life Extension Foundation. 1-800-544-4440. 


OWEN R FONOROW
PO Box 3097 
Lisle, IL 60532

----------


## Alpha-Male

> btw alpha here is a good read
> http://www.internetwks.com/owen/heart.htm
> 
> Linus Pauling and your Heart 
> (c) 1996 Owen R. Fonorow 
> At the age of 93, dual Nobel prize winning scientist Linus Pauling, well known for advocating the healthful benefits of vitamin C, anounced that, "we've got to the point where I think we can get almost complete control of cardiovascular disease, heart attacks and strokes." Now, several years later, as evidence mounts, Linus Pauling's belief is being affirmed. 
> 
> A provocative series of papers was published by Dr. G. C. Willis and coworkers starting in 1953 that showed the importance of ascorbic acid in the maintenance of the arterial walls (the intima). Any factor disturbing vitamin C metabolism results in wall injury with subsequent fatlike deposits. In his 1953 paper, Willis concludes that *acute or chronic vitamin C deficiency*  in guinea pigs produces atheroslcerosis and closely simulates the human form of the disease. 
> 
> ...


thanks for the info...see bold/caps

----------


## Kärnfysikern

cant asnwere any of your questons since I havent started to research vitamin c and the heart yet.

btw is lp(a) the same as oxidized ldl? if it is I have seen lots of studies that shows that vitamin c prevents ldl from oxidizing

----------


## Kärnfysikern

found 2 studies now that shows ascorbic acid doesnt lower lp(a). Will keep on digging

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## Kärnfysikern

I think this is the whole studie

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...582&query_hl=7

----------


## Kärnfysikern

hiv and ascorbic acid
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...293&query_hl=1

Suppression of human immunodeficiency virus replication by ascorbate in chronically and acutely infected cells.

Harakeh S, Jariwalla RJ, Pauling L.

Viral Carcinogenesis, Laboratory, Linus Pauling Institute of Science and Medicine, Palo Alto, CA 94306.

We have studied the action of ascorbate (vitamin C) on human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1), the etiological agent clinically associated with AIDS. We report the suppression of virus production and cell fusion in HIV-infected T-lymphocytic cell lines grown in the presence of nontoxic concentrations of ascorbate. In chronically infected cells expressing HIV at peak levels, ascorbate reduced the levels of extracellular reverse transcriptase (RT) activity (by greater than 99%) and of p24 antigen (by 90%) in the culture supernatant. Under similar conditions, no detectable inhibitory effects on cell viability, host metabolic activity, and protein synthesis were observed. In freshly infected CD4+ cells, ascorbate inhibited the formation of giant-cell syncytia (by approximately 93%). Exposure of cell-free virus to ascorbate at 37 degrees C for 1 day had no effect on its RT activity or syncytium-forming ability. Prolonged exposure of virus (37 degrees C for 4 days) in the presence of ascorbate (100-150 micrograms/ml) resulted in the drop by a factor of 3-14 in RT activity as compared to a reduction by a factor of 25-172 in extracellular RT released from chronically infected cells. These results indicate that ascorbate mediates an anti-HIV effect by diminishing viral protein production in infected cells and RT stability in extracellular virions.

PMID: 1698293 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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## Kärnfysikern

this one shows lowering effect on lp(a) in guine pig




> Immunological evidence for the accumulation of lipoprotein(a) in the atherosclerotic lesion of the hypoascorbemic guinea pig.
> 
> Rath M, Pauling L.
> 
> Linus Pauling Institute of Science and Medicine, Palo Alto, CA 94306-2025.
> 
> Lipoprotein(a) [Lp(a)] is an extremely atherogenic lipoprotein. Lp(a) has been found in the plasma of humans and other primates, but until now only in a few other species. The mechanism by which it exerts its atherogenicity is still poorly understood. We observed that Lp(a) has been found in the plasma of several species unable to synthesize ascorbate and not in other species. We have now detected apoprotein(a) in the plasma of the guinea pig. We induced atherosclerosis in this animal by dietary ascorbate depletion and, using SDS/PAGE and subsequent immunoblotting, we identified Lp(a) as accumulating in the atherosclerotic plaque.* Most importantly, adequate amounts of ascorbate (40 mg per kg of body weight per day) prevent the development of atherosclerotic lesions in this animal model and the accumulation of Lp(a) in the arterial wall.* We suggest an analogous mechanism in humans because of the similarity between guinea pigs and humans with respect to both the lack of endogenous ascorbate production and the role of Lp(a) in human atherosclerosis.
> 
> PMID: 2147514 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


to bad that it doesnt seem to carry over to humans. Maby the human studies where low in lysin. Or maby it just doesnt work that way in humans. But there have to be more to it. Linus Pauling would make such a big statement if he wasnt very sure about this word.

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## Kärnfysikern

Now I realise Im reading things to fast. Pauling claims that vitamin c is important for arterie strenght but lysin is the thing that "mops" upp the lp(a). So the studies showing that lp(a) doesnt decrease with vitamin c doesnt prove pauling wrong.

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## Kärnfysikern

http://www.thecureforheartdisease.co...eartCureRD.htm

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## Kärnfysikern

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12875759

Vitamin C and risk of coronary heart disease in women.

Osganian SK, Stampfer MJ, Rimm E, Spiegelman D, Hu FB, Manson JE, Willett WC.

Department of Medicine, Children's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVES: Our objective was to prospectively examine the relation between vitamin C intake and risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) in women. BACKGROUND: Results from prospective investigations of the relation between vitamin C intake and risk of CHD have been inconsistent. The lack of clear evidence for a protective association despite a plausible mechanism indicates the need to evaluate further the association between vitamin C intake and risk of CHD. METHODS: In 1980, 85,118 female nurses completed a detailed semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaire that assessed their consumption of vitamin C and other nutrients. Nurses were followed up for 16 years for the development of incident CHD (nonfatal myocardial infarction and fatal CHD). RESULTS: During 16 years of follow-up (1,240,566 person-years), we identified 1,356 incident cases of CHD. After adjustment for age, smoking, and a variety of other coronary risk factors, we observed a modest significant inverse association between total intake of vitamin C and risk of CHD (relative risk [RR] = 0.73; 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.57 to 0.94). Among women who did not use vitamin C supplements or multivitamins, the association between intake of vitamin C from diet alone and incidence of CHD was weak and not significant (RR = 0.86; 95% CI 0.59 to 1.26). In multivariate models adjusting for age, smoking, and a variety of other coronary risk factors, vitamin C supplement use was associated with a significantly lower risk of CHD (RR = 0.72; 95% CI 0.61 to 0.86). CONCLUSIONS: Users of vitamin C supplements appear to be at lower risk for CHD.

PMID: 12875759 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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## Kärnfysikern

the one above and this one only deals with the dangers of low vit c so not that related to thread but still a good read

Antioxidant vitamins and mortality in older persons: findings from the nutrition add-on study to the Medical Research Council Trial of Assessment and Management of Older People in the Community.

Fletcher AE, Breeze E, Shetty PS.

Centre for Ageing and Public Health, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, United Kingdom. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Older persons are at risk of both poor nutrition and increased oxidative stress. Plasma ascorbate concentrations fall with increasing age, and concentrations of other antioxidants may also be reduced. OBJECTIVE: The goal was to examine the association between antioxidants and mortality in older persons. DESIGN: We randomly selected persons aged 75-84 y from the lists of 51 British family practitioners taking part in a randomized trial of assessment of older persons. A total of 1214 participants provided a blood sample and were interviewed about their usual diet with the use of a food-frequency questionnaire. Statistical analyses were based on deaths after a median of 4.4 y of follow-up, and hazard ratios were estimated for quintiles of dietary or blood antioxidants. RESULTS: We found strong inverse trends for blood ascorbate concentrations with all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality, which were only marginally reduced after adjustment for confounders or supplement use. Those in the lowest fifth (< 17 micromol/L) had the highest mortality, whereas those in the highest fifth (> 66 micromol/L) had a mortality risk nearly half that (hazard ratio = 0.54; 95% CI: 0.34, 0.84). Similar results were found after the exclusion of those subjects with cardiovascular disease or cancer at baseline (hazard ratio = 0.51; 0.28, 0.93). In fully adjusted models, there was no evidence for an influence of alpha-tocopherol, beta-carotene, or retinol on total mortality. Dietary antioxidants measured by the food-frequency questionnaire were not associated with all-cause or cardiovascular disease mortality. CONCLUSION: Low blood vitamin C concentrations in the older British population are strongly predictive of mortality.

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## Kärnfysikern

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...st_uids=881295

Effect of ascorbic acid on plasma cholesterol in humans in a long-term experiment.

Ginter E, Cerna O, Budlovsky J, Balaz V, Hruba F, Roch V, Sasko E.

During the period of a low vitamin C intake (approximately equal to 20 mg per day) ascorbic acid in a dose of 2 x 500 mg per day was administered to 82 men and women aged 50-75 years. A correlation of plasma cholesterol levels determined before and after a three months' administration of ascorbic acid showed the effect of vitamin C to be dependent on the starting concentration of plasma cholesterol: the higher the initial cholesterolemia, the greater the hypocholesterolemic effect of ascorbic acid. On restricting the experimental group to subjects with an initial cholesterolemia above 230 mg%, the effect of the same dose of ascorbic acid on cholesterolemia was followed in three-month periods for a further 9 months. In all these time intervals, ascorbic acid was found significantly to depress cholesterolemia and its effects persisted 6 weeks after termination of the experiment. The administration of 2 x 500 mg ascorbic acid daily during one year resulted in an abrupt increase of ascorbemia and a marked accumulation of ascorbic acid in the leucocytes. Six weeks following interruption of ascorbic acid intake, vitamin C concentration in the leucocytes significantly declined but still continued to be twice higher than in the control receiving no ascorbic acid supplement.

PMID: 881295 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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## Kärnfysikern

Improvement of peripheral endothelial dysfunction by acute vitamin C application: different effects in patients with coronary artery disease, ischemic, and dilated cardiomyopathy.

Erbs S, Gielen S, Linke A, Mobius-Winkler S, Adams V, Baither Y, Schuler G, Hambrecht R.

University of Leipzig, Heart Center, Department of Internal Medicine/Cardiology, Leipzig, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Endothelial dysfunction has been described in patients with coronary artery disease (CAD) or chronic heart failure (CHF). Vitamin C administration leads to an improvement of endothelial function by reducing elevated levels of reactive oxygen species. It remains unclear, however, whether the degree of endothelial dysfunction caused by oxidative stress differs between CAD and CHF because of ischemic (ICM) or dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM). METHODS: In patients with CAD (n = 9; left ventricular ejection fraction [LVEF], 64% +/- 3%), ICM (n = 9; LVEF, 25% +/- 4%), DCM (n = 9; LVEF, 25% +/- 3%), and healthy subjects (HS; n = 5; LVEF, 66% +/- 5%) a change in internal radial artery diameter in response to acetylcholine (Ach; 15 and 30 microg/min) was measured with high-resolution ultrasound scanning during a co-infusion of normal saline or vitamin C (25 mg/min). RESULTS: Ach-mediated vasodilation was blunted in patients with CHF (DCM, 90 +/- 20 microm; ICM, 86 +/- 20 microm) and patients with CAD (336 +/- 20 microm) as compared with HS (496 +/- 43 microm; P <.05 vs patients with DCM, ICM, CAD). Vitamin C co-infusion increased Ach-mediated vasodilation by 180 +/- 35 microm (to 270 +/- 30 microm) in DCM (P <.05 vs CAD, HS) and by 294 +/- 40 microm (to 380 +/- 20 microm) in ICM (P <.05 vs DCM, CAD, HS). In patients with CAD, vitamin C increased Ach-mediated vasodilation by 146 +/- 35 microm to normal values, whereas vascular diameter remained unchanged in HS (14 +/- 20 microm; P = not significant). CONCLUSIONS: Acute vitamin C administration restored peripheral endothelial function in patients with CAD to normal values, whereas endothelial function remained attenuated in CHF, in particular in patients with DCM. These results suggest that in patients with CHF, factors other than oxidative stress (eg, cytokines) contribute to the pathologic endothelial function.

Publication Types: 
Clinical Trial

PMID: 12891196 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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## Kärnfysikern

http://www.nutraingredients.com/news...G.asp?id=51350

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## Kärnfysikern

shouldnt this be good for training? Increasing blod flow?




> Is vitamin C superior to diltiazem for radial artery vasodilation in patients awaiting coronary artery bypass grafting?
> 
> Drossos GE, Toumpoulis IK, Katritsis DG, Ioannidis JP, Kontogiorgi P, Svarna E, Anagnostopoulos CE.
> 
> Department of Cardiothoracic Surgery, University of Ioannina School of Medicine, Ioannina, Greece.
> 
> OBJECTIVES: We aimed to measure the vasodilating effects of vitamin C on the radial arteries of healthy subjects and to assess whether vitamin C is superior in this regard to diltiazem, a commonly used vasodilator in coronary artery bypass using radial conduits. METHODS: In a case-control study (study 1) oral single-dose vitamin C (2 g) was given to 15 healthy nonsmokers and 15 matched otherwise healthy smokers. In a randomized double-blind study (study 2) oral single-dose vitamin C (2 g, n = 15) and diltiazem (180 mg, n = 15) were compared in preoperative patients with coronary artery disease. We examined the dilation of the radial artery with high-resolution ultrasonography and measurement of the lumen surface and color Doppler images of the nondominant radial artery just before and 2 hours after drug administration. RESULTS: In study 1 both smokers and nonsmokers showed a significant increase in the lumen surface at 2 hours compared with at baseline (P <.001 and P =.013, respectively). The increase was larger in smokers (median, 37.5% vs 14.3%; P =.004). In study 2 both groups showed statistically significant increases in the lumen surface at 2 hours compared with at baseline (P <.001 and P =.008 for vitamin C and diltiazem, respectively). *Vitamin C achieved a larger increase than diltiazem (median, 33.3% vs 18.2%; P =.016).* In multivariate modeling the increase in lumen surface was independently predicted by use of vitamin C over diltiazem (+21.2%, P =.007), diabetes mellitus (+14.5%, P =.085), increased cholesterol (+26.2%, P =.001), and smoking history (+20.8%, P =.017). CONCLUSIONS: *Vitamin C is a potent acute vasodilator in both smokers and nonsmokers* and is superior to diltiazem in preoperative coronary patients who need protection from vasospasm of the radial conduit.
> 
> Publication Types: 
> ...

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## Kärnfysikern

interesting the vitamin c foundation tried to get a grant to research the effect of lysin along with vitamin c on heart disease. They got denied!!




> Lowering Lp(a) with Ascorbate, Lysine and Proline.
> Our Grant Application to Study Pauling Therapy for Heart Disease that was submitted to the Federal NIH National Center for Complimentary and Alternative Medicine... DENIED!! 
> 
> 
> Linus Pauling filmed the video Heart Disease: A Unified Theory of Cause and Treatment to tell the world that ultra high doses of ascorbate (Vitamin C) and lysine should be used to treat heart patients. 
> For patients following the advice of their cardiologists, and not supplementing vitamin C, the Pauling Therapy is a miracle. 
> 
> In 1993, Pauling recommended not waiting for a time-consuming expensive double-blind study because the potential benefits so far out weigh the risks. Was Pauling right? . Does it really matter? There are no known harmful side effects. 
> 
> ...

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## Kärnfysikern

here are a collection of OLD studies about vitamin c and heart diseases. Havent read them yet but I will

http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/

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## Kärnfysikern

http://www.medical-library.net/sites...r_disease.html

now Im off to beed. Hope you have some reading alpha. Will be gone the weekend. Spending time with my girl. Wont check the board that much then.

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## Kärnfysikern

Rationale for Use of Massive Doses of Ascorbate in Disease
Robert F. Cathcart, M.D.
An ascorbic acid molecule carries two extra electrons with which it can can neutralize two free radicals. When it gives up those two electrons, it is mostly finished unless the mitochondria give it back two electrons. Then the ascorbate can be used over and over again. A major problem, however, is that when there is an inflammation in a tissue, the mitochondria there are so damaged as to not be able to rereduce the dehydroascorbate back to ascorbate. Additionally, the damaged mitochondria become a major source of free radicals. A free radical cascade results. 

Only massive doses of ascorbate will shut down this free radical cascade. I am actually after the extra electrons carried by the ascorbate, not the ascorbate itself. When the concentration of these electrons is raised over a threshold point in the inflamed tissues, the free radicals are instantly neutralized and the free radical cascade is shut down. 

If the concentration of the ascorbate (electrons, reducing redox potential) are driven in high enough concentrations into the inflamed tissues, the inflammation medicated by free radicals, the inflammation will be shut down. Therefore, the degree to which massive doses of ascorbate can cure or ameliorate a condition is proportional to the importance of free radicals in the pathology of that condition.

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## Kärnfysikern

http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcfour.htm

CHAPTER 4


THE SAFETY OF HIGH DOSES 

"Opinions are caught like an infection, and
put into practice without examination."

Balzac


Overview


Along with its numerous and substantial clinical benefits, vitamin C is also one of the safest and least toxic therapies that can be administered to a patient, regardless of diagnosis. Everybody needs some vitamin C on a regular basis, and the only potential problems with vitamin C administration arise in a very limited number of clinical situations. Some researchers have voiced their concerns about the proper dosing of vitamin C in these situations, and the validity of these concerns will be addressed in some detail.


Long-Term and High-Dose Supplementation


Intravenous vitamin C has already been demonstrated as a very safe form of vitamin C supplementation. Casciari et al. (2001) reported that "terminal cancer patients" were given 50,000 mg of intravenous vitamin C daily for up to eight weeks. The "blood count and chemistry parameters" revealed no evidence of toxicity or side effects from this administration. Kalokerinos et al. (1982) also reported on the safety of intravenous vitamin C, noting that "in Australia alone, some 100 physicians" have administered as much as 300,000 mg of vitamin C per day to their patients. These authors go on to mention that "in most cases the results have been spectacular, the only side effect is 'chronic good health.'"


Cathcart (1981), using his method of dosing patients with vitamin C up to "bowel tolerance" (see Chapter 3, in the treatment of AIDS), often gave individual patients more than 200,000 mg of oral vitamin C daily as ascorbic acid. Cathcart (1985) asserted that he had treated over 11,000 patients in the prior 14 years with vitamin C. Regarding doses ranging from 4,000 mg to over 200,000 mg in a 24-hour period, he commented that there was "a remarkable lack of systemic difficulties" with these doses of vitamin C. By 1993, Cathcart's patient count had exceeded 20,000, and no remarkable difficulties with these dosage levels had emerged (Cathcart, 1993). Some of his AIDS patients (Cathcart, 1984) would take anywhere from 25,000 to 125,000 mg of vitamin C daily on a regular basis, only varying the dose depending upon fluctuating bowel tolerance, which generally reflected the activity level of the disease. Cathcart noted that occasional minor complaints of gas, diarrhea, or acid stomach were seen more often in well patients, appearing only rarely in the "very sick" patients. He asserted that even with these high daily doses of vitamin C, he "cannot recall any patient who has been damaged by large doses of ascorbate," except for some dissolving effect on tooth enamel in a few people who swished the vitamin C in their mouths before swallowing.


Cathcart also commented on the incidence of a few possible side effects that some authors feel may be associated with vitamin C therapy. Cathcart noted in the doses of vitamin C that he administered, oxalate kidney stones did not occur, and patients who had them previously tended not to get them again. Cathcart's extensive clinical experience directly contradicts the widespread but mistaken belief that large doses of vitamin C will result in kidney stone formation. Cathcart also noted that "three out of thousands" developed a "light rash" that cleared without discontinuing the vitamin C. Regarding the urinary tract, he noted that "six patients have had mild pain on urination," but that "acute and chronic urinary tract infections" were often eradicated with the vitamin C. A few patients had "discoloration of the skin" under some types of jewelry, possibly because of a detoxification effect of the vitamin C. Cathcart reported that a few patients had small sores in their mouth on lower doses of vitamin C that subsequently cleared when dosing was increased to the bowel tolerance levels. He noted that a few patients with "hidden peptic ulcers" might have had pain, but that others were benefited. Cathcart also commented that he has seen only benefit and no aggravation of gouty arthritis with high doses of vitamin C.


Moertel et al. (1985) conducted a prospective, double-blind study of the effects of 10,000 mg vitamin C daily versus placebo on 100 patients with advanced colorectal cancer. Except for a few patients having slightly more heartburn with vitamin C than placebo (a difference the authors determined to be "not statistically significant"), no "clear evidence of a specific toxicity of vitamin C" was detected in any of the patients. However, ascorbic acid was likely the form of vitamin C administered. Had the vitamin C been given as sodium ascorbate, no heartburn at all would be anticipated. The median time of vitamin C administration was 2.5 months, with the longest duration being 15.6 months. Even though the subjects were sick patients who would be expected to be especially sensitive to any agent with even mild toxicity, the daily 10,000 mg dose was very well-tolerated with no significant side effects observed. Earlier, Creagan et al. (1979) had administered either 10,000 mg daily of vitamin C as ascorbic acid or placebo to 123 advanced cancer patients who were felt to be "unsuitable" for chemotherapy. These patients were very ill, with a median survival time of seven weeks. Nevertheless, the vitamin C was very well-tolerated, producing only mild nausea and vomiting with the same frequency as the lactose placebo pills. The authors also specifically noted that no kidney stones were produced by this therapy, even though some patients received the vitamin C for over six months.


Bendich and Langseth (1995) compiled a good review article that also addressed the safety of chronic vitamin C supplementation. In addition to the reports noted above, a host of other therapeutic trials with vitamin C have also reported no adverse effects with dosages of vitamin C considered by most researchers and clinicians to be in the "mega-dose" range. In five double-blind studies giving either vitamin C or placebo, the doses of vitamin C ranged from 400 to 4,000 mg daily, and the durations of therapy ranged from one to 24 months (Ludvigsson et al., 1979; Bussey et al., 1982; McKeown-Eyssen et al., 1988; Taylor et al., 1991; Osilesi et al., 1991). In six other clinical trials that were not double-blinded and had no placebo given, long-term vitamin C administration did not result in any side effects. The vitamin C doses ranged from 500 to 5,000 mg daily, and the durations of therapy ranged from one to 30 months (Lux and May, 1983; Melethil et al., 1986; Brox et al., 1988; Godeau and Bierling, 1990; Reaven et al., 1993; Sharma and Mathur, 1995). In an article reviewing a large number of vitamin C studies, Hanck (1982) also confirmed the remarkable safety of long-term supplementation. Bass et al. (1998), in a double-blind study, found that vitamin C administration was very safe even for premature infants.


It can certainly be concluded that vitamin C is an exceptionally safe supplement, which has already been given in very large doses for extended periods of time with no significant problems occurring. There are few, if any, prescription or non-prescription medicines or supplements that are as free of side effects as vitamin C. This is in spite of the fact that vitamin C has one of the widest flexibilities in dose amount of any ingestible substance. The mild gastrointestinal effect of slight heartburn or stomach upset is limited to the ascorbic acid form of vitamin C. Vitamin C is equally effective in its sodium ascorbate form, and there is no stomach upset with this preparation.


Does Vitamin C Cause Kidney Stones?


Vitamin C as ascorbic acid is first metabolized to oxidized ascorbic acid, or dehydroascorbic acid (DHAA). Whenever vitamin C first contributes two electrons to another compound while performing its major responsibility as an antioxidant, DHAA is immediately produced. Other antioxidants and some enzymes can promptly regenerate DHAA back to the potent, unoxidized ascorbic acid (Long and Carson, 1961; Basu et al., 1979; Rose and Bode, 1992; Bode et al., 1993). However, when this regeneration does not occur, further metabolic breakdown of vitamin C can take place. The primary metabolic pathway of vitamin C is as follows (Davies et al., 1991):

1. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to DHAA
2. DHAA to diketogulonic acid
3. Diketogulonic acid to lyxonic acid, xylose, threonic acid, or oxalic acid (oxalate)

Oxalate, or oxalic acid, is a major metabolite of vitamin C after it is utilized and fully broken down in the body. Oxalate is considered a true metabolic "end product" because there is no evidence that mammalian tissues further utilize it or break it down any further (Hagler and Herman, 1973). Since the primary constituent in most kidney stones is calcium oxalate (Jayanthi et al., 1994), many conventional doctors have simply concluded that significant vitamin C supplementation will lead to kidney stones. For this reason alone, it would seem that many patients are still warned by their physicians that vitamin C supplementation "might" cause problems and increase their chance of developing a kidney stone. However, there exists a large amount of literature from respected research centers that indicates otherwise. In patients with known kidney disease, some reasonable cautions are in order. However, a healthy person who avoids dehydration and ingests even very large amounts of vitamin C does not need to have any concern about kidney stone formation. In fact, there is a strong suggestion in some studies that regular supplementation of vitamin C actually decreases the chances of kidney stone development. Two recent and extensive studies at Harvard have clearly demonstrated that vitamin C is not a factor in the development of kidney stones in healthy adults. Curhan et al. (1999) looked at a group of 85,557 women with no history of kidney stones. Over a follow-up period of 14 years, 1,078 cases of kidney stones developed in this group. Vitamin C intake had no statistical association with any increased risk of stone development. A bit earlier, Curhan et al. (1996) looked at a group of 45,251 men with no history of kidney stones. They also found that vitamin C was not a risk factor for stone formation over their six years of follow-up, and it did not matter whether the men were consuming 250 mg or 1,500 mg of vitamin C daily. Gerster (1997) noted that a statistical study revealed that individuals with the highest vitamin C intake actually had a lower risk of kidney stones compared to individuals taking the least vitamin C. Analyzing the relationship more precisely, Simon and Hudes (1999) found that every 1.0 mg/dL increase in blood vitamin C levels was "independently associated" with approximately a 28% decrease in the prevalence of kidney stones in men. Gaker and Butcher (1986) reported that an 81-year-old woman successfully dissolved her very large kidney stone over an eight-week period with only diuretics, antibiotics, and vitamin C.


In veterinary work, Belfield and Zucker (1993) reported two cases in which vitamin C administration dissolved documented bladder stones. A 10-year-old female terrier was found to have bladder stones. Since the owner did not want an operation for only that reason, the dog was placed on 500 mg of vitamin C daily. After six months the animal had unrelated uterine surgery, and an operative examination of the bladder revealed that the stones were gone. In another case, a veterinarian gave a small-breed dog 8,000 mg of vitamin C as ascorbic acid daily for four months. This successfully dissolved a large bladder stone.
Many factors are involved in the precipitation of calcium oxalate out of the urine, leading to stone formation, and increased vitamin C supplementation is but one of these factors. It is important to realize that a given risk factor can only produce a given medical condition when other surrounding circumstances favor the development of that condition as well. These risk factors, with appropriate references, include the following:

1. Increased urinary oxalate (Hagler and Herman, 1973b; Ogawa et al., 2000)
2. Increased vitamin C supplementation (Pru et al., 1985; Urivetzky et al., 1992; Auer et al., 1998)
3. Calcium ascorbate as the type of supplemental vitamin C (Kalokerinos et al., 1981; Tsugawa et al., 1999)
4. Presence and concentration of other dissolved substances (solutes) in the urine (Oke, 1969; Lawton et al., 1985)
5. Presence of heavy metal chelation agents, such as DMPS, DMSA, and EDTA, which have their own independent kidney toxicities, due to increased urinary solute load and toxin damage to the kidneys (Oke, 1969)
6. Increased urinary calcium (Noe, 2000; Kinder et al., 2002; Bushinsky et al., 2002; Borghi et al., 2002)
7. Decreased urinary magnesium (Schwartz et al., 2001)
8. Decreased urinary citrate (Alvarez et al., 1992; Tekin et al., 2000; Yagisawa et al., 2001)
9. Decreased urinary potassium (Kinder et al., 2002)
10. Increased urinary cystine (Martins et al., 2002)
11. Increased urinary phosphorus (Prie et al., 2001)
12. Increased urinary uric acid (Koide, 1996; Yagisawa et al., 1999)
13. Increased urinary lipids and cholesterol (Khan et al., 1988; Khan and Glenton, 1996)
14. Increased age, with age-associated decrease in glomerular filtration rate (Mousson et al., 1993)
15. Intake of hard water (Bellizzi et al., 1999)
16. Overall state of hydration (Sakhaee et al., 1987; Borghi et al., 1996)
17. Decreased daily volume of urine flow and formation (Riobo et al., 1998; Borghi et al., 1999a)
18. Urinary pH (Wall and Tiselius, 1990; Hokama et al., 2000; Murayama et al., 2001; Kinder et al, 2002; Hsu et al., 2002)
19. Low dietary calcium (Curhan et al., 1997a)
20. Supplemental calcium (Curhan et al., 1997a); supplemental calcium causing calcium gallstones (Powell, 1985)
21. Vitamin D supplementation (Black, 1945; Hodgkinson and Zarembski, 1968; Broadus et al., 1980; Ichioka et al., 2002)
22. Low intake of magnesium and vitamins (Williams and Smith, 1968)
23. Preexisting calcium deposits throughout the body, especially in the vascular system
24. Presence of preexisting kidney insufficiency or failure; being on hemodialysis (Oren et al., 1984; Chen et al., 1990; Daudon et al., 1992)
25. Any injury to the cells lining those parts of the urinary system susceptible to stone formation (Khan and Thamilselvan, 2000)
26. Intake of oxalate stone-generating or oxalate-containing foods (Hagler and Herman, 1973a; Bakane et al., 1999; Massey et al., 2001)
27. Intake of oxalate stone-generating or oxalate-containing beverages (McKay et al., 1995; Curhan et al., 1996a; Terris et al., 2001)
28. Intake of oxalate stone-generating or oxalate-containing supplements and medicines (Shields and Simmons, 1976; Fleisch, 1978; Ettinger et al., 1980; Wolf et al., 1985; Ahlstrand and Tiselius, 1987; Daudon et al., 1987; Michelacci et al., 1992; Kohan et al., 1999; Sundaram and Saltzman, 1999; Gonzalez et al., 2000; Wu and Stoller, 2000)
29. Intake of oxalate stone-generating toxins (Hagler and Herman, 1973c; Conyers et al., 1990; Muthukumar and Selvam, 1998)
30. Receiving total parenteral nutrition (Friedman et al., 1983; Swartz et al., 1984)
31. Deficiency of pyridoxine [vitamin B6] (Gershoff et al., 1959; Faber et al., 1963; Gershoff, 1964; Mitwalli et al., 1988; Alkhunaizi and Chan, 1996; Curhan et al., 1999)
32. Deficiency of thiamine [vitamin B1] (Buckle, 1963; Alkhunaizi and Chan, 1996)
33. Having had intestinal bypass or resection surgery, or small bowel malabsorption from any cause (Gregory et al., 1977; Drenick et al., 1978; Nightingale, 1999; Nightingale, 2001)
34. Urinary tract infection, or presence of bacteria (Trinchieri et al., 1996; Dewan et al., 1997; Daskalova et al., 1998; Hokama et al., 2000; Sohshang et al., 2000; Kim et al., 2001)
35. Presence of increased oxidative stress in the urinary tract (Scheid et al., 1996; Muthukumar and Selvam, 1998)
36. Primary hyperoxaluria, a hereditary disorder (Daudon et al., 1998)
37. Hyperparathyroidism (Ralph-Edwards et al., 1992; Yamaguchi et al., 2001)
38. Urinary stasis, or incomplete voiding (Nikakhtar et al., 1981; Sarkissian et al., 2001)
39. Obstructive urinary disease (Kim et al., 2001)
40. Polycystic kidney disease (Torres et al., 1988; Torres et al., 1993)
41. Cirrhosis (Hagler and Herman, 1973c)
42. Diabetes (Hagler and Herman, 1973c)
43. Congestive heart failure (Hagler and Herman, 1973c)
44. Crohn's disease (Shiraishi et al., 1998; Buno et al., 2001; McConnell et al., 2002)
45. Cystic fibrosis (Turner et al., 2000; Perez-Brayfield et al., 2002)
46. Renal tubular acidosis (Hagler and Herman, 1973c)
47. Sarcoidosis (Sharma, 1996; Rodman and Mahler, 2000)
48. Klinefelter's syndrome (Hagler and Herman, 1973c)
49. Parasitic diseases, including amebiasis, schistosomiasis, giardiasis, and ascariasis (Hagler and Herman, 1973c)
50. Antibiotic therapy (Bohles et al., 2002)
51. Increased fluoride intake (Singh et al., 2001)
52. Prolonged bedrest (Hwang et al., 1988)
53. Kidney transplantation (Torrecilla et al., 2001)
54. Hypertension (Borghi et al., 1999; Hall et al., 2001)
55. Increased alcohol intake (Hughes and Norman, 1992)
56. Increased glucose intake (Burns et al., 1951; Nguyen et al., 1989)
57. Pregnancy (Hildebrandt and Shanklin, 1962; Maikranz et al., 1989)
58. Methoxyflurane anesthesia (Mazze et al., 1971; Mazze et al., 1971a; Silverberg et al., 1971)
59. Ketogenic diet (Furth et al., 2000)
60. Space travel (Whitson et al., 1997; Whitson et al., 1999)

One of the primary reasons why the vitamin C/kidney stone connection continues to generate concern is because vitamin C does increase the urinary concentration of oxalate. Therefore, it just seems logical to assume that more and prolonged vitamin C administration will continue to increase this concentration until calcium oxalate stones begin to form. However, research proves that this is not the case, although vitamin C is one of many risk factors (see above) for increased oxalate formation and the subsequent formation of calcium oxalate stones. Schmidt et al. (1981) determined that there was actually a leveling off of oxalate production even though the vitamin C dosing was continued. The researchers noted that a significant amount of the vitamin C does not even get metabolized to oxalate and is excreted unchanged in the urine. When very high doses of vitamin C are administered for any significant medical condition, the active, non-oxidized form of vitamin C is much more readily regenerated from the oxidized vitamin C that is initially generated. This process further prevents the irreversible metabolism of vitamin C to the oxalate end product. Takenouchi et al. (1966) noted that about 80% of vitamin C administered to human subjects was eliminated as dehydroascorbic acid, the oxidized form of vitamin C. They concluded that the metabolic breakdown of vitamin C in humans does not necessarily have to follow the entire sequence down to oxalate. They also noted that as the vitamin C dose is increased, urinary excretion of diketogulonic acid increased. This is a clear indication that further oxidative breakdown of the diketogulonic acid to oxalate does not have to occur for a metabolic breakdown product of vitamin C to be excreted. In healthy men, Lamden and Chrystowski (1954) showed that vitamin C doses of 4,000 mg or less "produced no significant increase in oxalate excretion" over non-supplementers. Fituri et al. (1983) found that the ingestion of 8,000 mg of vitamin C daily for seven days by eight normal subjects did not "significantly alter urinary or plasma oxalate during or after ingestion." Other investigators have found that vitamin C administration will raise urinary oxalate levels (Tiselius and Almgard, 1977; Hatch et al., 1980; Hughes et al, 1981). As noted in the list above, vitamin C is only one of many risk factors that can affect whether calcium oxalate stones are ultimately formed. Unfortunately, many of the research studies examining this issue have not even looked for most of the other risk factors itemized above, resulting in conflicting findings on the ability of vitamin C to increase urinary oxalate. Fituri et al. even noted that some studies have used a tablet form of vitamin C, and they suggested that the tartaric acid and sucrose present in some tablets could convert to oxalate in the body. The amounts of such additional agents in pills can be significant, as Wilk (1976) noted that 100 mg vitamin C pills weighed 400 mg, with the additional 300 mg due to fillers. Auer et al. (1998a) also showed that urine specimens not preserved with EDTA registered erroneously high oxalate levels in their testing, possibly indicating a reason for some of the higher oxalate levels noted in other urine studies of vitamin C supplementers.


Logically, there have to be multiple other ways to metabolize and excrete vitamin C rather than by urinary oxalate. Casciari et al., (2001) showed that 50,000 mg daily doses of intravenous vitamin C have already been given to cancer patients for eight-week periods without problem. If urinary oxalate was the only excreted metabolic product of vitamin C, such doses would cause such a supersaturation of oxalate in the urine that crystal deposition and eventual stone formation would have to occur. Yet, this does not occur.
Since oxalate is a primary component of so many kidney stones, it is also very important to know about the many other potential sources of increased oxalate concentration in the urine. In addition to vitamin C, glyoxylate and glycolate are the primary substances that can be metabolized to oxalate (Ogawa et al., 2000). Also, there are numerous other lesser precursors to oxalate, including gelatin, certain amino acids (such as tryptophan, phenylalanine, aspartic acid, tyrosine, threonine, and asparagine), creatinine, purines, glucose, other carbohydrates, and probably several unidentified substances (Hagler and Herman, 1973). A lesser precursor can assume a great deal of importance in the generation of oxalate when one has a peculiar diet rich in the precursor, such as occurs in the regular excessive ingestion of aspartame-containing diet drinks and other diet foods. Aspartame is primarily a combination of phenylalanine and aspartic acid, two of the amino acids that can lead to oxalate. Also, if a patient is receiving hyperalimentation with a high concentration of amino acids, increased oxalate formation can result. Glycine, the simplest of the amino acids, is likely the major source of glyoxylate, which is a major immediate precursor to oxalate (Hagler and Herman, 1973).


Important dietary sources of oxalate include spinach, rhubarb, parsley, citrus fruits, and tea. Tea is probably the most important source of oxalate in the average English diet (Zarembski and Hodgkinson, 1962). Other significant dietary sources of oxalate include Swiss chard, cocoa, chocolate, beet tops, peppers, wheat germ, pecans, peanuts, okra, chocolate, refried beans, lentils, and lime peel. Various soy-based foods can also contain large amounts of oxalate (Massey et al., 2001). High-purine foods, such as sardines and herring roes, also substantially increase oxalate excretion (Zarembski and Hodgkinson, 1969). Oxalate poisoning has been reported in the literature secondary to an excessive intake of rhubarb (Tallquist and Vaananen, 1960; Kalliala and Kauste, 1964). Clearly, a detailed dietary history is critical in the proper management of any patient with kidney stone risk or disease, and merely lessening or discontinuing vitamin C intake as the only significant intervention is not in the patient's best interests. Eliminating one or several of the patient's favorite oxalate-containing foods should always take precedence over lessening or eliminating any regular supplementation of vitamin C.


Calcium also plays several roles in the propensity for calcium oxalate stone formation. Reducing the dietary (not supplemental) intake of calcium increases the intestinal absorption of oxalate (Hodgkinson, 1958). Conversely, in a study on 45,619 men Curhan et al. (1993) found that a high dietary intake of calcium decreased the risk of symptomatic kidney stones. In looking at 91,731 women, Curhan et al. (1997) again found that the high dietary intake of calcium decreased the risk of symptomatic kidney stones, "whereas intake of supplemental calcium may increase risk." It was also found that vitamin D supplementation increased the excretion of oxalate in humans (Hodgkinson and Zarembski, 1968).
Some researchers have actually demonstrated that vitamin C probably lessens the likelihood of kidney stone formation in those individuals who already have a history of stone formation, indicating a possible therapeutic role for vitamin C in the treatment of kidney stone disease. Schwille et al. (2000) found that vitamin C actually inhibited the development of calcium oxalate crystals in these individuals. Not surprisingly, they also concluded that vitamin C does not play a role in helping the formation of kidney stones "under normal conditions." Grases et al. (1998) were able to demonstrate that free radical-damaged cells in an experimental model using living epithelial cells tended to produce a "favorable environment" for the development of calcium oxalate crystals. They found the vitamin C "exerted the most remarkable effects" in preventing the formation of calcium oxalate crystals. Selvam (2002) found that "antioxidant therapy prevented calcium oxalate precipitation in the rat kidney and reduced oxalate excretion in stone patients." Gotz et al. (1986) showed that another antioxidant, lipoic acid, helped prevent the precipitation of calcium oxalate crystals in dogs. Jayanthi et al. (1994) also showed that lipoic acid was effective in lowering oxalate levels in the kidneys and urine of rats. As a powerful antioxidant, vitamin C may well have the same effects as lipoic acid. Certainly, vitamin C also quenches free radicals, prevents oxidant-induced damage, and facilitates tissue healing after such damage has been inflicted. Perhaps eliminating focal areas of such tissue damage makes it that much more difficult to initiate an abnormal deposit of calcium oxalate. This may be one significant way in which vitamin C can reduce kidney stone formation. McCormick (1946) long ago asserted that his research on vitamin C indicated that a vitamin C deficiency was "the basic etiological factor" for stone formation anywhere in the body.

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## Kärnfysikern

by the way you asked about lysin if we get enough. 100grams of whey concetrat contains 8grams of lysin. I dont know anout meat though. But looks like we bodybuilders should have plenty of lysin

Maby if eating pure lysin like on a empty stomach it gets absorbed better into the bloodstream? But I get around 16 grams of lysin daily from my shakes if not even upp to 24grams so I dont worry  :Smilie:

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## Alpha-Male

sorry, been out all day, finished up my two root canals and prepped for crowns...OUCH!!!

hey bro, PLEASE try to get a copy of that book, Nutrient Timing...i'm going to work on getting it to PDF somehow...i was re-reading it earlier, and they too advocate the use of Vit. C AND E, as well as leucine in pre and post workout nutrition, for many of the reasons we've discussed...maybe i'll just try to post or send you the excerpts...i'd be interested to get some other's opinions on some of the topics discussed...peace

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## Kärnfysikern

yeah. when I get cash I will order it or buy it on pdf I realy want to read that one for sure

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## Kärnfysikern

hope your mouth is feeling better  :LOL:

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## Kärnfysikern

feelt good in the gym. Will weight myself tomorrow but dont except any weightloss since last week since I had 2 cheat days last weekend.

Had gained 10 ibs in a chest press and in shoulder press. Was a bit stronger then last time in close grip bench and my deadlift strenght was awsome.

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## russia dog

IT:S GREAT WHAT U GUYS ARE POSTING :Smilie:  BUT I DON:T THINK I HAVE TIME TO READ ALLLLL OF IT... 

anyways, can someone concluded it??? the benefits, dosage, side effects

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## IronFreakX

> sorry, been out all day, finished up my two root canals and prepped for crowns...OUCH!!!
> 
> hey bro, PLEASE try to get a copy of that book, Nutrient Timing...i'm going to work on getting it to PDF somehow...i was re-reading it earlier, and they too advocate the use of Vit. C AND E, as well as leucine in pre and post workout nutrition, for many of the reasons we've discussed...maybe i'll just try to post or send you the excerpts...i'd be interested to get some other's opinions on some of the topics discussed...peace


and high GI carbs before workout..during?(cant remember)  :Hmmmm:  and after....it sounds intresting tho.....ill look for it too...let me know if you get it......
Damn 2 root canals?!!!i had one from a fight that was a total bitch...good luck  :Big Grin:

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## Alpha-Male

well, i can't find the damn thing, checked Amazon.com, no luck...Kinko's won't do it without copyright permission, and it would cost too much and take up WAY too much time for me to do it...Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com has the paperback, it's only like $10...you should definitely order it...

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## Kärnfysikern

ohh by the way I have dropped my testosterone dosage down to 250mg/week for the last 2,5 weeks.

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## Veretta21

So whats the final verdict here? I have a bottle of 1,000mg pills of Vit. C laying around the house to take when I get a cold, should I be taking these pre and post workout for enhanced recovery and other benefits?

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## Kärnfysikern

I can say one thing. Mega dosages of vitamin c wont hurt and will improve your health. If it has performance enhancing effects when taken oral I dont know yet. I feel "refreshed" in my body but its just a feeling. I have gained some strenght but not much above what I was expecting to gain without it.

It does enhance collagen synthesis so that might be the reason I have had NO knee pain at all during these weeks(my knees are usualy ****ed upp beyond belife).

It increases insulin sensitivity so it will aid a bit in fat loss and glycogen replenishment just like r-ala.

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## Kärnfysikern

btw did legs today and my hack squat strenght had jumped 45 ibs since last time. But that is probably because I am now doing rockbottom reps in it. I used to hacksquat a shitload of weight to paralel but 2 weeks ago I started doing them rock bottom with like half the weight I used to use. So I will probably gain in this rate for a while because of the changeupp.

But these last 2 times I have done hack squats have been the ONLY times in 1 year!! that I have done hack squats without knee pain. That I can not explain. The weight decrease isnt the explenation since I used to feel pain during light warmups.

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## Veretta21

So what are amount are you talking about with megadoses? And how should I take it throughout the day?

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## Kärnfysikern

determine your bowel tollerance. Start with 10 grams and increase by 1 gram each day. When you get dihareea you have found your bowel tollerance. Drop dosage by 1-2 grams and keep it at that level.

Spread it out as evenly as possible.

MAKE SURE the vitamin c you have is either ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate. No other kind of ascorbate should be used at these dosages.

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## Kärnfysikern

yesterdays workout rocked. had increased 4 reps with the same wieght in incline smith bench, gained several reps in seated military press to and gained over 10 ibs in reverse smith bench. Used 10ibs more in rack chins for the same ammount of reps.

Morning weight today is 88kg so Im still dropping weight. About half a kilo a week it seems like(about 1 pound/week). Would like to speed it upp to 1kg a week so I can reach my 84kg goal quickly.

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## Kärnfysikern

I used 5kg(11ibs) heavier dumbells for the same reps in flat db bench today.
Had gained 22 ibs in a lat pulldown machine
was 22ibs stronger in cabel uppright rows

Im gaining very good now  :Smilie:  Within 2 weeks I will be as strong as I was when I was 14kg(30ibs) heavier and on alot of a-bombs.

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## Kärnfysikern

the best thing of it all is that I am only on 250mg test/week!!!

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## Kärnfysikern

I have lost another kg. Morning weight today was 87kg. Im gonna weight myself on friday morning to to se that it wasnt a fluke since thursday morning is my regular weight in days.

Did biceps, forearms, legs, calves today. Have gained 45ibs in the legpress for the same reps. 10ibs more in scottcurl but did 4 less reps. Used 22ibs more in straight legged deadlift for the same ammount of reps.

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## Veretta21

How long are you going to run this experiment? I'm always curious to know how a person's body reacts after supplementing something for a while

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## Kärnfysikern

Not sure how long to run it. Honestly Im probably gonna run 15g/day for the rest of my life. I might drop it down to 5g/day the periods Im not working out as intensly.

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## Kärnfysikern

but for the sake of the experiment I will probably do low dosage for a few weeks. Dont know when though.

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## Veretta21

The times that you have done low dosages---have you felt differently at all? Like less energetic or anything?

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## Kärnfysikern

becaue I almost ran out of vitamin c I went down to 5grams/day for a while. Now when Im back to 15-20grams day I noticed more energy again.

When I began this experiemtn going from almost no vitamin c to 20grams/Day I got a tremendous energy boost. Realy noticable. Got to much energy even, couldnt sit still  :LOL:

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## Veretta21

Thats why I wonder how your body would react after constantly feeding it with so much Vit C for such a long time---what made you start this experiment?

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## Kärnfysikern

I read alot about vitamin c and realise our daily needs are around 10grams/Day. Not the need for survival but the need for optimal body functions. We are just made to have those ammounts of vitamin c in our bodies.

Linus Pauling(the guy who started researching vitamin c properly) took 20 grams/day his entire life for instance.

If I drop dosage I wont suffer any consquenses I will just go back to the lower level of energy I always used to have. But dosages should be tappered down since the body gets used to getting rid of viamin c in a fast rate when megadosing.

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## Veretta21

Can you go into a little more detail about how optimal body functions require 10g's a day---I am really interested in your experiment

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## Kärnfysikern

Well the first argument is that ALL animals except man, monkeys, a rodent(cant remember wich one maby guinnea pig) and bats produce alot of vitamin c. If we had the production of a pig for instance we would produce 10+grams/day of vitamin c. We however lost the ability a couple of million years ago. its a 6 enzyme step process to make glucose into ascorbic acid and we lack the last enzyme. However our body functions havent changed the need for it.

The second argument is that if we do the numbers on the diet we evolved on we got 5grams or so of vitamin c each day. Only because the vitamin was abudant in our food could be survive even though we lost the enzyme needed to produce. The same has been noticed in the other animals that lost the enzyme. It became a evolutionary advantage somehow we could go on without the production.

Heart disease like in men doesnt occur in animals that have vitamin c production. Linus Pauling and a few others have a hypothesis that we all suffer from permanent scurvy. Not the kind that kills you instantly. but one that kills slowely. You could read the cholesterol control link in my signature for more info on that.

Unfortunaly very little research is done in this field. Linus Pauling got a ruined reputation when he began to spread the word on vitamin c. The medical comunity totaly froze him out even though he is a twice unshared nobel price winner. Now with the advancements of orthomolecular medicin everything he claimed is beeing proven. But big med companies dont want to se that happen. Vitamin c could easily replace many many medicines. There are several doctors treating a variety of conditions with viamin c.

One you can find at www.orthomed.com I know the site looks like a conspiracty theory nutcase site but the doc behind it is well respected. Another good site is http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/

I suggest you pic up the book "vitamin c and the comon cold" by Linus Pauling. Its dirt old but awsome, another good book is vitamin c, curing the incurable by Dr Levy. A third is Ascorbate(cant remember author) that can be bougt as a e book for 7 bucks.

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## Kärnfysikern

also for instance when a pig is sic its daily production can incrase to over 20 grams/day. Its also been proven time and again that a dosage of 10-15grams/day in human almost makes us immune to the comon cold and the flu. A massive dosage of upp to 100 grams day can imidietly cure it. In cases like polio it can be cured by giving several hundrad grams a day for several days. This was discovered alreadt back in the 50s before the polio vaccine. Yet to this day polio is considered uncurable even though the cure was even published in mags back in the 50's. The doc that did that is named Kleener do a search for his name to.

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## Kärnfysikern

as you notice this is my favorite subject to write on  :LOL:  I have a passion for vitamin c.

Here is a good article that Dr Kleener wrote. Not about our need as much as about disease curation.

http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm

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## Kärnfysikern

kleeners paper on curing polio
http://www.orthomed.com/polio.htm

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## Veretta21

how old is Linus Pauling? I am gonna try with 5grams a day starting tomorrow and see if theres a difference-not just because of the fitness aspects of it but it seems like taking these amounts is really good for your well being and health--does it matter I'm in my 20's

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## Kärnfysikern

linus pauling has passed away a few years ago. I think he became 93 and was activly giving lectures to the end. A great man and great scientist.

Your age wont matter. I am only 21 btw.

make sure the vitamin c you take is either pure ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate. Other kinds of vitamin c like zink ascorbate, manganese ascorbate ect might have sides because of the mineral the ascorabte is attached to.

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## Veretta21

The Vit. C I have is 1,000mg per serving and in the ingredients it just says ascorbic acid--I am at work right now so I am not 100% but about 99% sure thats what it says--so I am going to start with 5 servings of that---that seem ok? You seem way older than 21 btw

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## Kärnfysikern

yeah if its ascorbic acid then its cool  :Smilie:  If you are gonna continue with vitamin c I would suggest you find a cheap powder since its alot more economical. Pure ascorbic acid powder tastes like utter shit though and is acidic.

Thanks  :Strong Smiley:

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## Veretta21

quick question---how should I supplement the Vit. C pre and post workout?

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## Kärnfysikern

I think 3 grams before workout is a good thing to limit all catabolic effects of the workouts itself(I base the number on the ammount they gave to marathon runners to lower cortisol levels). Then a equal ammount post workout I guess is good along with some betacaroten and maby some vitamin e. In your case if you dont want to take more on workout days then take 3 grams before and 2 grams after.

Also on days you do cardio take 3 grams before cardio. Like half and hour before.

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## Veretta21

I checked my Vit. C bottle and its ascorbic acid and added Rose buds---are the rose buds ok to have?

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## Kärnfysikern

Im not even sure what rose buds are. Im dont think its a issue though not with only 5grams a day so go ahead.

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## Veretta21

I took 3g's preworkout yesterday and killed my workout---Doubt the Vit.C played that much of a part--but I did feel really energetic and strong---mostly likely its due to my diet--but I will keep ya updated

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## Kärnfysikern

yeah let us know  :Smilie:  I think noticable effects come with higher dosages but maby you will feel 5 grams.

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## Veretta21

Been feeling weird lately---stomach gets nautious---mouth is really dry--especially lips---I have been drinking extra water--which seems to make my lips even drier---I think it is the Vitamin C---because I haven't taken anything else---I haven't taken more than 5g's a day either---anything like this ever happen to you? Is taking 3g's at once too much?

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## Kärnfysikern

never noticed anything like that and never herd of that side effect either.

Stomach gets stressed when you approach bowel tolerance(10-20grams for most), dihareea and stuff. I often take 10grams at once without any problem.
Ditch the vitamin c and check if it goes away. If it does then maby the rose thing in it is the cause because it cant be the vitamin c.
If you have such a low bowel tolerance then something is wrong with how your body handle vitamin c.

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## Veretta21

what do you think about ODing on Vitamin C and that it can hurt the kidneys and even cause kidney stones?

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## Kärnfysikern

its pure and utter bullshit. There is no eviden what so ever that its even possible to od on vitamin c. NONE and I dare anyone to find me one studie showing any serious side effect from massive vitamin c dosage(except stomach discomfort and mineral loss). Merc manual states no toxic dosage known, every nutrition and vitamin book I have ever read states that vitamin c is one of the safest substances known without serious side effects even at massie dosages(300g/Day through iv for days and weeks in cancer and polio patients).
Sorry if I sound a bit pissed lol this is just a myth I want to se die once and for all.

About kidney stones. That issue has more or less been settled. The ascorbic acid makes the urine so acidic that the oxalate(i think this was the name)the aa produces cant form crystals and stones. Its more or less impossible. 
The whole thing started since higher levels of oxalate is found when taking massive ascorbic acid dosage. But they never took into account the process behind oxalate creating kidney stones. So if you dont have a family history of kidney stones its not a issue at all.

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## Kärnfysikern

the one danger is when mega dosing mineral ascorbates where the ascorabte is attached to a mineral that is dangerous in big dosages. Thats why I say to always use sodium ascorbate.

Also those with sensitive stomach can get a worsened ulcer if they do pure ascorbic acid instead of mineral ascorbate because of its acidity.

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## Veretta21

any recommendations where I can get cheap sodium ascorbate? Also what is the difference in buying regualr Vit. C and Ester C?

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## Kärnfysikern

ester c is a mineral ascorbate but witch one Im not sure. Other then that there is no difference except pricetag  :LOL: 

www.vitamincfoundation.org sells pharmacutical quality ascorbic acid not sure of the price thought but I think it was a pretty fair price since its very high quality. Works good if your tummy can take it(mosts can, my cant because I have a history of ulcers).

here I just found 3ibs of sodium ascorbate for 32 bucks thats insanely cheap I think Im gonna order from them myself next time even with the added shipping cost to sweden
http://www.iherb.com/sodiumascor.html

here is a good guide to the different kinds of vitamin c by the number 1 vitamin c expert right now.

http://www.tomlevymd.com/archiveissue9.htm

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## Kärnfysikern

bodyweight 86 kg(just below 190ibs)  :Smilie:  Dropped another kg. Keeping up the weightloss of 1kg(2,2ibs)week. Feels great. Starting to se veins on my legs, some striations on the sweep. To bad my stomach doesnt lean out as fast as my quads  :Frown: 

Anyway Im 2kg away from my goal weight but if I keep droping weight at this rate I might aswell push myself down to 80-82kg(176-180).

Still only running 250mg test/week, 50mcg t-3/day and that is in the super supplement department.

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## kaptainkeezy04

> what do you mean with IV? Intravenous? I wouldnt feel comfterable injecting stuff into my veins even though I have seen descriptions on how to make home made iv sodium ascorbat. But thats to risky I wouldnt do it unless Im under doc supervision.
> 
> IM would be a whole different thing though but I dont know in what concentrations and how much could be shot in each spot ect.


Shit man I used to watch my Dad inject vitamins and minerals straight into people (i think maybe in their hearts) when they were in a coma and only eating from a tube and watch them gain significant weight. I know this is off subject but just thought I would throw that out there. BTW he is a doctor lol.

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## Veretta21

Johan as I mentioned earlier to you I have been taking around 5 grams of pure ascorbic acid daily, 2.5 in the morning with breakfast and around 2.5 at like 6pm around dinner time---my energy has been unreal since I have been doing this---I know its only 5 grams but no other changes have been made in my diet and I feel more energetic---my question to you is that I have been having trouble sleeping at night and I think it is due to the Vit. C----I am wondering if you experienced these problems---I am taking a gram of melatonin to help me sleep and hope my body catches on---wondering what you think?

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## Kärnfysikern

hey bro.

The energy boost is nice isnt it  :Smilie: 

Im not sure about the sleep. I havent realy noticed any effect on my sleep. I could however speculate that you might need to supplement with magnesium because I think vit c could increase the rate it gets excreted from the body. Try a zink and magnesium supplement before you go to beed maby?

Do you usualy have any trubble going to sleep?

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## Austex

> Johan as I mentioned earlier to you I have been taking around 5 grams of pure ascorbic acid daily, 2.5 in the morning with breakfast and around 2.5 at like 6pm around dinner time---my energy has been unreal since I have been doing this---I know its only 5 grams but no other changes have been made in my diet and I feel more energetic---my question to you is that I have been having trouble sleeping at night and I think it is due to the Vit. C----I am wondering if you experienced these problems---I am taking a gram of melatonin to help me sleep and hope my body catches on---wondering what you think?


<On a side note>

I like the "deep sleep" that comes from supplementing melatonin. However, whenever I take it (maybe 15 minutes before bedtime) I ALWAYS wake up after about 4-5 hours. I feel refreshed and wide awake even though I know I need to get a full 8 hours rest...so often times I'll spend an hour trying to fall back asleep. Any such similar instances?

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## Veretta21

Never had any problems with sleep before---will try the zinc and magnesium--also Johan my body reacted differently with the sodium ascorbate--I never felt these effects with that as I do with the ascorbic acid its pretty cool--Austex I usually wake up in the middle of the night to take a piss and when I take melatonin and have to wake up to piss I feel like a ran into a brick wall--I need a full 8 hours of sleep and I will feel refreshed in the morning--any less and I am like a zombie with melatonin

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## Kärnfysikern

thats a bit odd. Is it the ascorbic acid or the sodium ascorbate that gives the insomnia??

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## Veretta21

Its the ascorbic acid that does---its also the ascorbic acid that I really feel the effects of the Vit. C too---anyways as of right now I am loving this supplement---could be the best thing that I have ever taken---keep the updates coming on the Vit. C--love to read about them----one more thing---what do you think about supplementing with Vit. E--is there a need for it? Also a B Complex vitamin?

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## Kärnfysikern

I love to supplement with vit e and b. Im gonna give you a list of all my supps. I dont "notice" any effect form them however. Not like from vitamin c. But according to my bloodwork I am in awsome health so they must do something  :Party Smiley TAP: 

vitamin c 15g/day
b vitamin complex 2/day
folic acid 1000mcg/day
b12 4000mcg/day
b6 300mg/day
beta carotene 50mg/day
glucosamin 1000mg/day
vitamin e around 4mg/day
selenium 100mcg/day
zink 45mg/day
Probiotics
multivitamins tripple dosage

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## Veretta21

Well ok--my question is are there certain times when you shouldn't have two of the supplements together? For example I heard not to take E and C at the same time, if this is true how long do I wait to take E if I just took Vit. C?

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## Kärnfysikern

I dont know of any reason not to take e and c at the same time. to be honest. Usualy vitamins help each other in beeing abosorbed by the body.

But there might be a reason not to combine them that I havent read. A hour betwen c and e should be plenty in that case since c has a very short half life.

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## Ridla

what should the diet look like for optimal fatloss on VIT. C?

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## Kärnfysikern

just like a regular diet, It helps with slin sensitivity ect kind of like r-ala and similar products while lowering cortisol.

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## Ridla

Yeah my main concern is to get rid of the high levels of cortisol...we on game cuz......U have beeen a great help!

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## Ridla

do U take it with food or do U just spread it out through hte day?

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## Kärnfysikern

I take it whenever I remember. Doesnt realy matter. But if you take mineral supplements take some vitamin c at the same time since it increases mineral absorbation  :Smilie:

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## Ridla

how dangerous can ascorbic acid be if u have a week stomach???

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## Kärnfysikern

I dont know to be honest. I dont think it would be dangerous mostly uncomfterable and painfull. But if you have a ulcer or kathaar drinking lots of ascorbic acid could make it worse I guess.

If you have to use ascorbic acid mix it with baking soda. That increases ph. Or with a regular anti acid.

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## Ridla

What is with the vitamin C that has a type of calcium in it instead of ascorbic??

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## Kärnfysikern

its just a mineral ascorbate like sodium ascorbate. I wouldnt recomend it however since I wouldnt recomend consuming the ammounts of calcium that you would get from megadosing calcium ascorbate.

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## Alpha-Male

so IYO, it's beneficial to megadose some vitamins/minerals and not others?

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## IronFreakX

> so IYO, it's beneficial to megadose some vitamins/minerals and not others?


Im not johan , but ill answer this

yes it is , cause some vitamins offer no benefits when increased , some might even cause negative effects....and some wont offer the benefits cept in megadoses(I hate calling it megadoses since its just the rite dose actually)

just dont trust anyone who wants to be "politically correct"...dont trust a madman either  :LOL:   :LOL:

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## Kärnfysikern

exactly what iron said. Some vitamins can be extremely dangerous to toy around with in higher dosage while others are harmless. But only vitamin c is benificial in these dosages.

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## Alpha-Male

hmm, okay, well, i know you started this 'lil experiment back in June, but i don't wanna read through all those posts...gimme an update if you don't mind...how have things been going? i mean, what kind of "results" are you contributing to your trials, any? just curious, since, as you know from before, i'm not exactly a proponent of megadosing anything  :Wink/Grin:  

AM

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## Alpha-Male

i mean, it seems as though every study i've seen involving "positive" effects of "megadoses" of ascorbic acid, fail to do one thing: they do not qualify whether or not those same benefits can be obtained at lower doses, or so-called "normal" doses of the vitamin...one wouldn't need to follow the same protocol when assessing negative effects of "megadosing", except maybe to pinpoint a limit at which the efficacy of supplementation is maximized and potential side effects are minimized...however, i haven't seen any study, to date, that has succeeded in doing so...

i realize that you feel Vitamin C is the "only" vitamin out there which, at "doses significantly higher than RDA" (is that better than "megadose"?), are not harmful to the body, but that's just not sound reasoning...there are documented examples of too much VitC causing problems in the human body, true, maybe not as significant as some vitamins or minerals, but excess of anything is not good...

Vitamin neurotoxicity.

Snodgrass SR.

Department of Neurology, University of Southern California, School of Medicine, Los Angeles 90033.

Vitamins contain reactive functional groups necessary to their established roles as coenzymes and reducing agents. Their reactive potential may produce injury if vitamin concentration, distribution, or metabolism is altered. However, identification of vitamin toxicity has been difficult. The only well-established human vitamin neurotoxic effects are those due to hypervitaminosis A (pseudotumor cerebri) and pyridoxine (sensory neuropathy). In each case, the neurological effects of vitamin deficiency and vitamin excess are similar. Closely related to the neurological symptoms of hypervitaminosis A are symptoms including headache, pseudotumor cerebri, and embryotoxic effects reported in patients given vitamin A analogs or retinoids. Most tissues contain retinoic acid (RA) and vitamin D receptors, members of a steroid receptor superfamily known to regulate development and gene expression. Vitamin D3 effects on central nervous system (CNS) gene expression are predictable, in addition to the indirect effects owing to its influence on calcium and phosphorus homeostasis. Folates and thiamine cause seizures and excitation when administered in high dosage directly into the brain or cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of experimental animals but have rarely been reported to cause human neurotoxicity, although fatal reactions to i.v. thiamine are well known. Ascorbic acid influences CNS function after peripheral administration and influences brain cell differentiation and 2-deoxyglucose accumulation by cultured glial cells. Biotin influences gene expression in animals that are not vitamin-deficient and alters astrocyte glucose utilization. The multiple enzymes and binding proteins involved in regeneration of retinal vitamin A illustrate the complexity of vitamin processing in the body. Vitamin A toxicity is also a good general model of vitamin neurotoxicity, because it shows the importance of the ratio of vitamin and vitamin-binding proteins in producing vitamin toxicity and of CNS permeability barriers. Because vitamin A and analogs enter the CNS better than most vitamins, and because retinoids have many effects on enzyme activity and gene expression, Vitamin A neurotoxicity is more likely than that of most, perhaps all other vitamins. Megadose vitamin therapy may cause injury that is confused with disease symptoms. High vitamin intake is more hazardous to peripheral organs than to the nervous system, because CNS vitamin entry is restricted. Vitamin administration into the brain or CSF, recommended in certain disease states, is hazardous and best avoided. The lack of controlled trials prevents us from defining the lowest human neurotoxic dose of any vitamin. Large differences in individual susceptibility to vitamin neurotoxicity probably exist, and ordinary vitamin doses may harm occasional patients with genetic disorders

granted, there are documented benefits to having "higher than RDA" levels of VitC, but IMO, there's a level or threshold if you will, at which the possible harmful effects outweigh the so-called benefits...

JMO

that's why i was wondering what kind of actualized "benefits" you felt you were getting from this experiment, and if you TRULY believed that you could not obtain those same benefits with "normal", or even a little above "normal" doses...or better yet, from proper diet/nutrition, which would surely give you adequate amounts of ALL vitamins/minerals...

AM

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## Alpha-Male

one more thing...i do think there is something to the IV adminstration of ascorbic acid, and would like to mention a study i found that was done on cancer patients, in which the IV adminstration of megadoses, and i mean super megadoses (like those in the Poliquin experiments), were shown to have some sort of toxicity to cancer cells...it's a little long so i'll just post the link...

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/4/423

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## Kärnfysikern

I will get back to you tomorrow. Im at my girls place now. But about dangers of vitamin c I only need to refer to 2 sources.

The 2 books
Vitamin c curing the incurable By Dr Tom Levy
and
Ascorbate By steve hickey.
If you are interested about this there are no better sources of info on mega dosing, fully referenced and written by professionals. The second one can be bought for5 bucks as a e-book Il hook you up with a link if your interested.

In those 2 books its safety is realy shown. Along with the experience of several doctors that have used massive iv dosages for various conditions without ever noticing a harmfull effect.

The things I have noticed on mega dosage that low dosages doesnt do is

Improved well beeing
Improved resistance to disease
Improved joint function
Alot more energy(this I feel when I go above 15grams)
Less soreness

That are the general things and I dont notice any of that on lower dosages.

When it comes to disease I have completely gotten rid of all cold symptons within 1,5 hour with oral mega dosages(40+ grams), I also got rid of a abcess with similar dosage. I had some fever, it was hot to touch and emtremely sore. Within 2 hours it was no longer hot, I had no fever and it didnt hurt nearly as much.

The optimal dosage of c to me is bowel tollerance dosage. Because that seem to be the dosage where most is utilised. Above that and unutilised ascorbic acid gets into the digestive track and cause the dihareea. So the body do something with the c until that dosage that is for sure. Especialy considering a disease raises the tolerance level dramaticly(3-20 as high).

that abstract you posted doesnt say much at all about c...

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## Alpha-Male

> that abstract you posted doesnt say much at all about c...


yeah, it touches briefly on some concerns about it, but really, it serves to review the dangers of megadosing ALL vitamins and minerals. awaiting your posts...

AM

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## Kärnfysikern

> hmm, okay, well, i know you started this 'lil experiment back in June, but i don't wanna read through all those posts...gimme an update if you don't mind...how have things been going? i mean, what kind of "results" are you contributing to your trials, any? just curious, since, as you know from before, i'm not exactly a proponent of megadosing anything  
> 
> AM


Hmm I think I summed up my results so far and how I interpret them. The joint health and how I have beaten colds and a abcess is realy what makes me a 100% beliver. My knees where in such piss poor shape that nothing (incase it isnt the sodium ascorbate) short of a miracle could have made them as good as they are today.

when sic and you consume alot of vitamin c you also feel some kind of well beeing. The imidiet effect it has on all symptoms along with extra energy adds upp to a remarkable feeling.




> one more thing...i do think there is something to the IV adminstration of ascorbic acid, and would like to mention a study i found that was done on cancer patients, in which the IV adminstration of megadoses, and i mean super megadoses (like those in the Poliquin experiments), were shown to have some sort of toxicity to cancer cells...it's a little long so i'll just post the link...
> 
> http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/4/423


Thats a very interesting abstract and its good to se there is still some docs with a open mind around. My bet is though that no one will get any serious funds to examine this closer. WAY to much for the medical industry to lose if ascorbate is proven effective. Its interesting that pauling saw those good effects with only 10 grams when it comes to such a serious disease as cancer. I wonder what the effects would have been with 100grams/day. 
To mention other sever conditions.
Several docs have sucessfully treated HIV with mega dosages. Making the virus go back into....damn I dont know the english words.. Is dormant state apropriate?? Then there is offcourse polio.





> i mean, it seems as though every study i've seen involving "positive" effects of "megadoses" of ascorbic acid, fail to do one thing: they do not qualify whether or not those same benefits can be obtained at lower doses, or so-called "normal" doses of the vitamin...one wouldn't need to follow the same protocol when assessing negative effects of "megadosing", except maybe to pinpoint a limit at which the efficacy of supplementation is maximized and potential side effects are minimized...however, i haven't seen any study, to date, that has succeeded in doing so...


I think the problem is here the question what is a normal dosage? If you go by some experts the estimated ascorbate consumption of stone age man was around 5 grams from plants. All of man and monkies closest relatives all produce huge ammounts of ascorbic acid. A regular pig produces around 10 grams/day and twice as much when sic. I firmly belive that the RDI of 60mg is the biggest joke of the century. It doesnt make any sense at all. The RDI for chimps are over 3grams!!!
On the other hand we have escimo(sp?) and other native people that doesnt get all that much ascorbic acid from diet and still maintain excelent health. But they do eat alot of animal parts that contains alot more of it than the regular meat.

Honestly clasifing vitamin c as a vitamin was almost a bad move. I more look at it as the 4th macronutrient or atleast some kind of semi macro.

I dont belive we will se a study that shows clearly what dosage is optimal. I am not one to buy into conspiracy theories but not even kleeners discovery that it cures polio made the medical community react. If it wasnt for Linus Pauling I wouldnt be suprised if it would be totaly forgotten by now. But apperently not even a twice nobel laureate can get funds to run real studies on this subject. All one can do is review the evidence that exist and while its not conclusive it realy does build a strong case for megadosages and a strong case for gram dosages even when healthy.

Right now all we have to go by is blood levels and bowel tollerance. Most studies done with higher oral dosages fail to take into account the very short halflife of ascorbic acid in the blood, so they fail to continously elevate blood levels and fail to produce results. That makes them draw wrong conclusions aswell like the comon myth that excess is just excreted in the urine without doing any good.




> i realize that you feel Vitamin C is the "only" vitamin out there which, at "doses significantly higher than RDA" (is that better than "megadose"?), are not harmful to the body, but that's just not sound reasoning...there are documented examples of too much VitC causing problems in the human body, true, maybe not as significant as some vitamins or minerals, but excess of anything is not good...


Acctualy Im going to do a similar experiment in the future with pantothenic acid in gram dosages. I cant find the links now but a doc in hongkong has treated obese patients with 10 grams of pantothenic acid/day and noticing improved energy and fatloss compared to those not using pantothenic acid. Since its nontoxic and fairly cheap Im curious to what will happen.

Also I would like to se any evidence of any ill effects from megadosing of vitamin c. The abstract you posted just made a claim without any example of it happening nor under what circumstances. All the while you have hundrads of medical practicioners(damn my spelling sux today lol)that use massive dosages for a host of conditions without ever noticing a problem. 

The most used argument against oral mega dosages is kidney stones. But kidney stones just can not form in the way they claim. Vitamin c consumption raises oxalate levels and oxalate can form kidney stones. What they dont take into account is the ph level needed for that process and how vitamin c effects ph level. It just cant happen from vitamin c consumption. The second most used argument against its safety is dihareea and stomach discomfort. But nobody suggest oraly going above the dosages that gives those problems. Doing so is pointless. 




> granted, there are documented benefits to having "higher than RDA" levels of VitC, but IMO, there's a level or threshold if you will, at which the possible harmful effects outweigh the so-called benefits...


yes I totaly agree Im not saying the higher the better. Im saying go to bowel tolerance level and dont go any higher. That is atleast some kind of indication that your consuming more than you need.




> that's why i was wondering what kind of actualized "benefits" you felt you were getting from this experiment, and if you TRULY believed that you could not obtain those same benefits with "normal", or even a little above "normal" doses...or better yet, from proper diet/nutrition, which would surely give you adequate amounts of ALL vitamins/minerals...
> AM


I think its a dangerous belife to have that food nowdays can cover micronutrient needs. Its fact that the poor soils nowdays produced plants with as little as 1/8 of the mineral and vitamin content it used to have and the situation isnt getting better.
I truly belife that the effects I have seen could not have been duplicated with proper diet since my diet before I started megadosing had such a abundance on(organicly grown aswell)veggies and fruits. If any diet could have worked in the same way, the diet I had back then should have. No doubt in my mind.

When it comes to beating diseases lower dosages is almost useless. Like pissing on a fire. The truly massive dosages(20-300grams(day) is needed for the effects we are looking for.

I have alot of faith in ortomolecular medicin and how to prevent and treat chronic diseases with higher dosages of vitamins. Most know example is niacin and cholesterol. Less known is the importance the rest of the b vitamins play in cholesterol and homocystein control. The water soluable(sp?)vitamins may very well be the medicin todays society is desperatly seeking for to use in cardiovascular disease and possibly cancer aswell.

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## Kärnfysikern

ohh yeah one danger of vitamin c is using mega dosages of vitamin c along with iron supplements. That can cause toxic levels of iron in the body.

Also people that suffer from any condition that increases iron absorption should also stay away from mega dosages of vitamin c unless they have strict controll of there diets.

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## Alpha-Male

well, but in consuming more and more amounts orally, still do not affect plasma levels of the vitamin as the body will metabolize megadoses and keep levels within a range, right? i know in the case of phenylalanine (and other AAs), as i found in studying the effects of aspartame on the body, when normal/healthy individuals ingesting massive amounts of diet soda containing the sweetner, plasma levels remained low no matter what the amount, as the body readily metabolized the nutrient...i'm assuming the same would hold true for vitamins and minerals, no? therefore, it seems that in order to keep plasma levels at higher ranges, one would need to go the IV route, as seen in your Poliquin (sp?) study and the cancer study i posted...

i agree that the RDI values are extremely low, but isn't there a maximum level of oral ingesting of VitC at which your plasma levels will peak, and therefore render any higher doses unnecessary and potentially harmful?

AM

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## Kärnfysikern

The thing is. I notice a difference betwen 40 grams and 60 grams when sic.

But to be honest I dont know how high plasma levels can be elevated oraly and not at what level it peaks. The book ascorbate goes through this properly but I cant for the life of me remember. But consuming 20 grams/day spread out evenly defenetly gives higher blood levels than 5grams/day. 

I think its hard to try and extrapolate the bodies ability to metabolise aspartam to vitamins and minerals. 

I like catcharts theory the best. He is most concerned about ascorbates ability to act as a free radical scavanger and the "optimal" dosage when thinking like that totaly depends on the ammount of free radicals. Not blood levels.
The bowel tolerance is reached when free radicals are neutralised and uneffected ascorbate raches the digestive track.
This explanation makes the most sense to me considering how dependand bowel tolerance is on severaness of disease.

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## Gassy

I take 15grams a day, for about a year and I feel great, my body just works better. There's a great site curezone.com that has whole vit. C forum. I used to take celebrex, advil, deca , all the OTC supps and went to the chiropracter 3x's a week and still had bad joint pain(arthritis, bursitis, tendonitis). I did a few cleanses, the vit. C and occationally noni juice. I'm now 95% pain free and take no meds, no other joint supps and no Drs. Very nice thread Johan.

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## IronFreakX

ok this is probably my shortest cold ever...I woke up feeling like shit...shooting green stuff outta my nose and mouth eww I know..a fever....well..... I ingested 82 grams of vitamin C , YES...82 GRAMS....the cold? its gone  :Smilie:

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## Kärnfysikern

:Thumps Up:

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## IronFreakX

> 


This was my highest number ever...I thot I was gonna get diareahha but damn I got nothing...

whats the highest youve taken?

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## Kärnfysikern

Im not sure. I have lost count the times I have been realy high but I would say no higher than 70 grams. probably around 60. When I go above my bowel tollerance I get bad stomach pain so I take it easy when I get high.

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## Jackedinthebox

Old post, but if there is anyone reading this stuff still, this is exactly how I ended up on dialysis. Don't mess with it. It will catch up with you

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## kman

> Old post, but if there is anyone reading this stuff still, this is exactly how I ended up on dialysis. Don't mess with it. It will catch up with you


 What????

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## Kärnfysikern

jackinthebox. Did the docs specificly tell you it was the vitamin c? In that case you are the first person in the world.

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## IronFreakX

> Old post, but if there is anyone reading this stuff still, this is exactly how I ended up on dialysis. Don't mess with it. It will catch up with you


funny , cuz I had a urine analysis done and its 100% normal , Ill scan the results next time and post them here...in a week or smth.... :7up:

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## Kärnfysikern

yeah my urine analysis was top notch aswell  :Thumps Up:

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## Dukkit

im going to bump this old thread

due to alot of inquiries on mega dosing vitamin c

plus i want to come back and read more of this later

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## oscarjones

Linus Pauling rules.

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## RaginCajun

glad you bumped this oscarjones. had some great reads and has my head spinning. i think i may try to start dosing heavy on the vit c. last august i had a bad sinus infection and the ENT (ear,nose,throat) doctor prescribed me antibiotics, plus 10g of vit c per day. anyone else have any experiences with megadosing vit c?

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