# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Here's my BW on testogel

## edmundo22

Total T: 29.5 nmol/l
Free test: 2.17% nmo/l
Bio available: 55.4% nmol/l
FSH:2.8 mIU/ml
LH:2.9 mIU/ml
Prolcatin: 9.9 ng/ml
SHBC: 34.10 nmol/l
E2 37 pmol/l <<<<<<<<<<< (40-160) pmol/L or 10.8 pg/ml 14-55 pg/ml
DHEA 17.0 nmol/L (3.4-34.7)
LIPID SCREEN
Cholestertol: 5.2 nmol/l
Triglyceride: 1.08 nmol/l
HDL: 1.43 nmol/l
LDL: 3.15 nmol/l

LIVER PROFILE
AST: 16 U/L
ALT: 30 U/L
GGT: 40 U/L
Globulin: 18 g/l
Albumin: 47 g/l
Protein: 65 g/l

Total PSA: 0.9 ng/ml Glucose, fasting 4.9 nmol/l

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## sirupate

I think we need the normal ranges to have a better idea of where you stand. I forget...are you on the starting dose of Testogel? How you feel is important...it is possible you need a bigger dose, or also that you don't absorb gels very well. But let's see pre-gel numbers and the normal ranges for your lab work.

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## Vettester

Ed, glad you are seeing some progress, but there are still some voids that really make it hard to assess your program ... I think your total serum would equal approx. 850 on the ng/ml scale, but I may have calculated it wrong (someone double check me please).

The labs are minimal and only paints a small picture. Needed is free & bio test (or at least SHBG & albumin), E2 sensitive, DHEA, etc.

Is this your first follow up since starting the testogel? If so, how long have you been doing it? Depending on the length of time and such, I'm actually surprised that the LH lab isn't a bit lower. Not that it's producing a large amount, but most guys on TRT usually are < 2. Hell, I was below 2 going into HRT, and if I tested today it would be zilch <.01

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## edmundo22

Still waiting on free test/SHBG they take a little longer, this what the clinic are testing for, FSH / LH / Prolactin / PSA / FBC / fasting glucose / Lipids / LFT.

first follow up since testogel its been 3 months now, will post pre testogel results when I get them.

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## zaggahamma

subscribed waiting for vette questions

and also wuts the dose of testogel

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## edmundo22

testoegl 50mg/5

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## zaggahamma

if total translates to 850 like vette calculated that is real good number wise....

u must have had another thread i remember your screen name? feel good as before but wut is before...

are we just looking at numbers here? why the new thread?

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## edmundo22

Jpk Feel live absolute crap just as I was before I started even though the number is high

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## Vettester

Ed, I did a double check and the 850 on the total serum is what I still come up with. That is more than sufficient for a protocol level, but a lot of it also depends on the free testosterone .

As I've said to others before, testosterone isn't the "be all, end all" to why someone might feel good or not. There's a myriad of variables, which could be or not be hormonal related. For starters, you need to get a complete panel ... E2, free & bio T, DHEA, Cortisol, Thyroid, ... Beyond hormones, you need to really get a good look at your CBC's and lipids. Elevated ALT's & AST's is an example of something that can make you feel like crap.

Also, on the prolactin, I personally would be happier seeing it below 7, but that's JMO. Just out of curiosity, has your medical team ever ordered an MRI to exam the pituitary region? It might just be me, but I would just think that you would be seeing more suppression with the axis by being on TRT for 3 months. Wondering if you have your baseline LH/FSH labs?

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## edmundo22

Vette can't thank you enough for your expertise on all this. I'll post up my bassline LH/FSH went there sent assuming bassline means pre testogel?

Out of the others that you mentioned still waiting in free/bio T, SHBC, LIPIDS, PSA, FBC, FASTING GLUCOSE, I'll ask about E2, DHEA, CORTISOL when I can

The endo checked my thyroid before n said its fine, the guy in the clinic asked had I ever had n MRI so that's something I can look into, would an MRI show something that a blood test wouldn't?.

Hate coming back to this but its important to me, having zero interest in sex for 12 years and then having it flood back for one month on testogel, if not testosterone it as to be hormone related just hope I can find what it is.

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## zaggahamma

> Vette can't thank you enough for your expertise on all this. I'll post up my bassline LH/FSH went there sent assuming bassline means pre testogel?
> 
> Out of the others that you mentioned still waiting in free/bio T, SHBC, LIPIDS, PSA, FBC, FASTING GLUCOSE, I'll ask about E2, DHEA, CORTISOL when I can
> 
> The endo checked my thyroid before n said its fine, the guy in the clinic asked had I ever had n MRI so that's something I can look into, would an MRI show something that a blood test wouldn't?.
> 
> *Hate coming back to this but its important to me, having zero interest in sex for 12 years and then having it flood back for one month on testogel, if not testosterone it as to be hormone related just hope I can find what it is*.


important to all of us bro
so this HAS improved then?

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## edmundo22

No Jpk it came and went in about 6 weeks, hopefully the bio available test will shed some light on what's going on, still waiting on it.

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## zaggahamma

I see...you felt better then same as before like MANY on gel claim
Still like vette stated complete bw ...go from there

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## edmundo22

Well its just free test that's to come back, is the short term effect of the gel a common thing Jpk??

If I knew for a fact that injecting test would make me feel better Id order it straight away?

When I read the sticky of how long before TRT starts to work I thought the effects would be long term, can anyone please help me out here?

Back in the pits of depression

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## edmundo22

Anyone??

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## zaggahamma

yes..i've seen countless posts claiming that...some rolled a little longer with the gel...myself, i had bloodwork come back LOWER than pre-TRT after dosing on TRT but was still feeling good but got on injects shortly after and did even better..

like vette stated..need not only free T but thyroid numbers , etc. to get a better look..

but yes...i have seen many a posts like yours

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## edmundo22

Jpk with blood work aside could it be as simple as switching to shots?

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## Vettester

Ed, way too much emphasis on testosterone . Get the other panels and let's go from there ... 

Don't know if you answered or not, but was an MRI ever in the picture with your doctors?

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## zaggahamma

> Jpk with blood work aside could it be as simple as switching to shots?


 problem is...your total t level is good...so no, there is a reason why/something deflecting that positive test level...if it was the delivery method ie in this case the gel not working then I wouldn't think your total t would be that good...so don't see how injected would b any better...sorry its not what you want to.hear...I can tell u one thing i don't see any harm if u tried just to clear hour mind...your gonna need those e2 , free t, thyroid numbers ASAP 
Best of luck with it bro

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## edmundo22

Its only free test that's to come back, there was no check for e2, DHEA, CORTISOL, I'd be happy to have an MRI done but again have to convince my doc its necessary.

Thank you again for your input guys.

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## zaggahamma

u dont need a doc to get blood work...look for my old post "bloodwork without presciption" or "bloodwork without rx"

an mri should have already been ordered...DO THEY EVEN HAVE A REMEDY OR SUGGESTION FOR YOU? or are they saying "your low T, now get the fvck outta here u filthy animal!" ?

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## edmundo22

Ok Iv educated my self a bit about E2, Don't know why the clinic didn't ask for it in the blood test, Jpk only after reading your posts properly. 

Feeling hopeful again, will get the rest of these bloods asap.

Double check
E2
Free&bio
DHEA
Cortisol
Thyroid
Cbc

Anything else that I'm missing?

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## zaggahamma

your list would be fine but heres some more that are good to know including what you already listed

• Total Testosterone 
• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA “Free and Loosely Bound”)
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)
• SHBG
• DHT (perhaps) *Gel user especially pay attention to this.
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (age dependent)
• IGF -1, IGFBP-3 (if HGH therapy is being considered)

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## edmundo22

Cheers for that Jpk hope you get better soon, free test should be back by tomorrow and I'll get the rest of these bloods as soon as I can, hope to get my life back too  :Smilie:

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## zaggahamma

Preciate

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## dogfight

hey brother i havent been on in a long while but i missed it. so lets get on with it! im dogfight and im hearing sexual dissinterest. ok reality check; are you psychologically stepping on your dick? Is your confidence down? are you depressed? if no to all those then try some proviron if you know where to find it. if i remember correctly it has been used to treat sexual dis interest at 150 to 300mgs a day.

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## edmundo22

This is the result I got using the calculator

Free T: 0.641 nmol/l = 2.17 %

Bio available: 16.4 nmol/l = 55.4%

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## edmundo22

2.30% free test doesn't sound good can anyone shed some light on this?

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## Vettester

Ed, 2.3% on free test isn't bad. 2% to 3% would be the target range to get to. Sure, I guess if someone wanted to nit pick at it, you could lower your SHBG a tiny bit and raise your free test slightly, but truthfully IMO that's not needed. Especially considering that you have 850 on your serum, 2.3% is fine!

Not sure if I saw it or not, but what about Thyroid tests? This is an area that can have negative effects if it's out of balance. As I said earlier, testosterone isn't the be-all, end-all to determine one's well being. It's a main factor amongst others. I think you need to dig deeper into the thyroid and cortisone scene for starters; probably consider running the gamut on hormones, lipids, CBC's & metabolic. Also, did I miss the E2 assay?

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## edmundo22

Vette out of everything you mentioned the clinic only checked for lipids, my first thyroid check came back fine, I'm trying to get my fourth and final blood test for the full panel that Jpk listed, didn't get E2 checked last time around as the clinic didn't ask for it, could it be a case of high estrogen for zero libido and loss of well being??

Was hoping when my total T came back at 850 that maybe there was something preventing it from working properly that would show up in the free / bio test results.

This may or may not be relevant but the month I was feeling the beneficial effects of the gel I was getting spots that were not there before and spontaneous erections which were awesome, now nothing.

Thanks again for your input Vette.

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## Vettester

Yea, I think the E2 could be playing a HUGE role in this. Also, if you can get some caber, look at lowering your prolactin down a bit, at least to 5 or 6 if possible. That shit will play games with you too on the libido. I know when I hit around your range on prolactin, I couldn't get the job finished for the life of me. A little dopamine agonist like Caber (I mean a little) will fix that up just fine. But, before that, get the other panels, then layout the WHOLE plan on what steps you're going to take to make it better.

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## edmundo22

Again can't thank you enough for your expertise on this Vette, Gp is sick of giving me blood tests but I'll get a full panel done ASAP, hopefully E2 will show up something I can correct.

Can anyone give me some feed back on the 53.9% bio available test, think you might have missed that Vette.

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## Vettester

Ed, as you probably gathered, the bio available test is a combination of your free testosterone & the testosterone that is loosely (or weakly) bound to albumin. Again, in your case, having a 850 total score, I don't think you're doing too bad at all. If you were sitting at 450 total serum and had the same free and bio, then maybe it might be a different story.

Now, with that said, let's see where the E2 sensitive assay comes in, then take it from there. The score of 34 on the SHBG can easily come down a bit, which would raise your free & bio %'s. However, I don't think that's needed just quite yet. Again, my suspicions are that it's more of a E2 issue at this point.

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## edmundo22

....

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## edmundo22

Finally got my E2 and its actually deficient , 37 pmol/l normal range is (40-160) pmol/l.

Very happy about this, it shows this is most likely the cause of my symptoms for the past 14 years and can have it corrected, if taking testosterone usually increases E2 then before taking test my E2 would probably would have been much lower then this but theres no way to know cuz the endo never checked E2 to begin with.

Please feel free to give me your thoughts on this especially on how estrogen can be increased, made appointment with my GP and then get referred to an endo to sort this out.

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## zaggahamma

never seen and e2 range like that

bump

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## edmundo22

Exactly JPK, he told me over the phone it was 37, didn't get the measurement at the time so assumed it was ng/dl, just waiting for the Vets to comment  :Smilie:

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## Vettester

Like jpk, I don't recognize the ref. range. It would be a lot easier to interpret if this were a E2 sensitive assay.

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## edmundo22

Jpk seems iv misread u once again thought you meant the result not the range, vette I specifcaly asked for sensitive assay but this is what I got, not sure what to make of this unless a new range as recently been set here, assuming you have seen e2 given in pmol before, whats the general range for pmol?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estradiol#Measurement
This range says 50-200 pmolL for estradiol which would put me even lower

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## edmundo22

I can't believe this think the hospital messed up, there was an O before estradiol which I thought was just a typo so this is oestradiol serum not estradiol?? are they the same thing? Please help me out here cuz I'm freaking out just a little bit

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## edmundo22

Bump, finding out what this info means is near life or death for me need your input on this guys ASAP.

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## zaggahamma

Oestradiol and estrodial(e2) are the same animal

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## zaggahamma

The number 37 itself looks fine...its the range that makes it look low and the range is suspect not the number

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## edmundo22

Thank's for that JPK can finally breath again. Just double checked with the bio chemistry lab, that's the estradiol range they use so according to them at 37 pmol/L I'm under the normal E2 low range.
Only other range I could find was wikapedia which says the range is 50-200 pmol, would like to think I can at least trust the bio chemistry lab that says I'm under.

Is it because of the measurement used yee can't give me your opinion or just that its 40-160?, if so could someone just post up a standard pmol/L range cuz I can't find one online.

One last thing, can taking test ever push e2 levels down cuz when I show this to GP tomorrow he's gunna assume my current E2 is due to taking test.

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## HRTstudent

Ok, well that estradriol seems to be below range but only slightly. But my somewhat secondary concern is that it was most likely not the sensitive or ultrasensitive test that virtually ever male HRT doctor recommends that I have read about.

Regardless, I don't think it would be out of range. 

Another note is, what exactly were you on? Maybe you were just starting but FSH:2.8 mIU/ml and LH:2.9 mIU/ml would be expected to be less than 1 and probably nothing.

Bottom line, if you feel ok and are not getting gyno then you have nothing imminent to worry about with your TRT.

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## zaggahamma

one of my e2 ultra sensitve ranges was 10-50 pg/ml and i was sittin pretty at 19

dont know how that would convert to pmol

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## edmundo22

I was told on this forum if E2 is either to low or to high its gunna mess you up it needs to be balanced in the middle, according to the range I'm not just low I'm beneath low, trust me I'm feeling a hell of a long way from ok this past few months while on TRT.

I only had 6 good weeks on TRT which was 5 months ago, I figure if my E2 was out of wack to begin with then taking test isn't gunna make a difference and if the endo had found this to begin with I would never have started TRT.

JPK I'm holding the result in my hand and it's definitively in pmol/L, <37 (40-161), its also highlighted in bold to show its out of range.

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## zaggahamma

yes u dont want too low either

somethings telling me the 37 is pg/ml as none of us have seen the weird range before

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## kelkel

If that's "total estrogen" then it is not valid for adult males. Sensitive assay needed.

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## edmundo22

I asked for sensitive assay, it says estradiol serum is that total estrogen kelkel and why would that not be valid? Does the range from wikipedia 50-200 also strange?, could it just be im in ireland and we have different ranges mesurements ur not used to seeing?, shit, sorry I honestly thought my location was showing up in my posts

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## edmundo22

Let's just say for discussion sake the range is correct, what syptoms would you expect with deficently low e2? I asked my doc would this be the reason for having zero libido for 12 years he said probably, then asked could this be the cause of my depression n mood swings he said maybe

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## zaggahamma

yes those are symptoms of low e2

i wonder wut would cause low (out of range) e2 without an AI use...i've seen low normal but not low below normal

wonder if theyre putting salt peter in yalls drinking water across the pond

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## zaggahamma

i mean beer and whiskey

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## edmundo22

Nope JPK just good old fashioned fluoride, just came back from my GP, different doc from the guy that did my bloods, just like u guys he thought the range must have been for women so he rang the lab who confirmed its for an adult male, its possible someone at the lab is a ****in retard but lets hope that's not the case.

My doc doesn't really know much himself he said low estrogen is a good thing but then I told him if its beyond normal low its as bad as having it too high, he doesn't believe that a E2 result like this can cause the symptoms that I mentioned.

So if the range is correct is the first time any of u guys have seen an E2 result like this?, is this an abnormality?, am I that special??

He's going to confer with the head endo here but my worry right now is she isn't gunna have a clue about male HRT as Iv read on here alot of females endos don't and she will end up telling my GP everything's fine and my GP will end up telling me to stop pursuing this.

Man, I know its not normal to feel like shit 24/7 everyday of the week month after month but I'm not gunna stop if I can get something corrected that's causing all this, it would be great to be in the hands of a professional who knows what there at, shouldn't have to be figuring out all this by myself.

Iv been staring at this thread for the past 2 hours waiting for a response, would love to get some feedback from the vet's on this.

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## edmundo22

Don't mean to come across as the fat girl who got stood up at the prom but bump...

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## zaggahamma

lol...ur aight

we feel your pain

no judging...its some serious shit 

wish could do more

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## Vettester

Ed, your 37 pmol/l should = approx. 10.8 on pg/ml scale. 

Obviously stop any AI's if you were doing them (I thought I read where you said you got some liquidex, but I could be wrong?). I would still like to see other hormone panels upstream; specifically pregnenolone, DHEA & DHT.

Stay active with finding a doctor that can help you with this. Start adding some oregano, grapefruit, and a little soy to your diet.

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## kelkel

^^^There's your plan Ed. And don't feel bad, I was at less than 3 once with my E on a sensitive scale. do you still see the fat girl?

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## edmundo22

Vette yes I got liquidex but never used it, got my DHEA it's there, they never gave me cortisol which was written down along with sensitive assay, I honestly don't think the lab tests for these here.
There's plenty of menopausal women out there who need there estrogen increased so I'm assuming there's something that as the opposite effect of liquidex. 
Like I said my GP is getting in touch with the head endocrinologist here so that's the best doctor I'm going to get. 

I do feel better on the gel but far from great right now, really want to believe I'ts just a matter of getting my E2 in range to start feeling better again.

Nope no more fat girl kelkel Ty guy's :Smilie: 

P.S: In regards to online sources is it usually the case you have to buy in bulk?, need to get off this gel (allergic) and pretty broke right now.

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## Vettester

Broke and HRT are not a good combination. A scale of prioritization will be imminent to make this work.

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## zaggahamma

i'd be homeless if i could have my vial

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## edmundo22

Trust me this is and as been for the past 5months my only priority, beside the fact I'm allergic the shots will be way cheaper so is it a common thing for sites to only sell in bulk? and again will getting my E2 sorted out really make that much of a difference cuz my doc doesn't think so and I'm worried the endo will say the same thing.

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## edmundo22

Please let me know on the above my life kinda depends on the significance of this e2 result, its been 3 days since Iv asked, desperately waiting for confirmation, is the result significant in regards to how I'm feeling and will getting it in range make a big difference???

The blood test was taken 5 months after TRT so my E2 could have been much lower then this

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## edmundo22

The fat girl bumped this not me.

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## zaggahamma

lol is there still a question sorry

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## edmundo22

Yup just read above^^^^^^^^^^

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## Vettester

Ed, first, let me say that I sincerely enjoy your posts, and I know all of us want to see you achieve optimal well being. However, you need to quit putting us on the spot with these "life and death" references. I understand you're not in a good place right now, I truly do, as I've been there just the same. If you are genuinely in a position where self inflicted harm is going through your mind, then PLEASE get with a professional in your area to work it out. 

Now, regarding your situation ... Is it all hormonal related?? I don't know. Part of me wonders if there's also some other psychological issues that could be attached to all of this. What I won't dispute is that your E2 is on the low end, and based on your testosterone panels I would think that it (E2) should be higher. What I'd like to see is a DHT panel. Suspicions that the gels have been elevating your DHT, thus limiting your E2 conversion, could be wrong though. Don't know if we ever saw any cortisol labs either?

If you're switching to injections, that might change it up to get better E2 conversion. Again though, for the meantime, add the food products I mentioned in the earlier post. Get with your doctor (or a new doctor) and run the DHT thing up the pole. There's a multitude of ways to get your E2 normalized, so don't freak out. Take a deep breath, relax, and just start thinking where you want to be with all of this down the road, and what steps are needed to get there.

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## edmundo22

Vette Honestly don't mean to put anyone on the spot when I say It's near life or death just speaking out of desperation and urgency, sorry if I came off any other way, been trying to find info on low estradiol online and the only thing that seems to come up is guys using AI's which leads me to believe that natural low estradiol is quite rare and is referred to as aromati sation deficency so I'm actually optimistic about getting my E2 where it should be to start feeling well again and getting a boner when appropriate.

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## Vettester

Ed, just hang in there a bit ... The body is always in a constant state to find homeostasis, and I'm sure yours is no different. Find a way to get the DHT lab. Something is keeping your conversion at check, and at this point it leans towards DHT being the potential culprit. Can you get the doctor to order this lab? Do you guys use the online places like privatemdlabs.com for doing it yourself?

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## kelkel

> Vette Honestly don't mean to put anyone on the spot when I say It's near life or death just speaking out of desperation and urgency, sorry if I came off any other way, been trying to find info on low estradiol online and the only thing that seems to come up is guys using AI's which leads me to believe that natural low estradiol is quite rare and is referred to as aromati sation deficency so I'm actually optimistic about getting my E2 where it should be to start feeling well again and *getting a boner when appropriate*.


I've yet to find the inappropriate time! :Welcome:

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## edmundo22

Already asked for DHT, I'll do my best to get it again, my doc showed me the hormone check list they use here for BW here, sensitive assay and cortisol weren't even on there so he wrote them down but still didn't get them.

Kelkel how were you feeling when your E2 was at 3?

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## kelkel

Main complaint was joints hurting. In retrospect libido was off too. Now with no adex on normal trt I run at 15-16 steady confirmed by 3 months in a row testing.

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## edmundo22

Was your E2 low for just a short period?, do you think your symptoms would have got a lot worse if left unchecked?

I'm amazed at just how little info there is out there on low estradiol but the bits that I do find all say the same thing, depression (estrogen levels directly effect serotonin, wondering is it the same relationship with testosterone and dopamine), no energy and no libido.

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## edmundo22

Hey guys where exactly do I need to get my E2 in ng/dl and how does that translate to pmol??

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## edmundo22

My doctor just rang to say the endo doesn't think the result is off any significance so I don't know what to do, what do you guys think?, is the endo right on this?
Please help me out here.

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## HRTstudent

> Hey guys where exactly do I need to get my E2 in ng/dl and how does that translate to pmol??


depends on the range you use... but the general guideline is in the "20's" depending on the test of course.




> My doctor just rang to say the endo doesn't think the result is off any significance so I don't know what to do, what do you guys think?, is the endo right on this?
> Please help me out here.


tell him that response is not of any significance! lol what worthless trash. 

tell them you would like the results faxed to you. then you can look it over and decide what might be significant. but surely do not just blow me off with nonsense like that. I'm almost tempted to think the guy never looked at it lol... who would say that to another doctor? also, I went to an endo who told me my growing bitch tits were not of any significance. thanks for the tip dumbass!

lesson is: you are your #1 health advocate and this will not change in your lifetime.

good luck man. be vigilant. the beginning is the hardest.

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## edmundo22

My doc says the endo had to check the medical literature as she didn't even know at first, she then said she had found nothing to suggest my result of 10.8 pg/ml would have any negative impact and there for there's no cause for treatment. I know I'm my No.1 health advocate but I don't even know if the result is significant and these are the people who are writing the scripts and shes the head/only Endo in my area.

Asked my Doc can I just try to raise my E2 to where it should be and if my mood/ libido/ morning wood all improves then happy days but he said no it might do more harm then good, and again the E2 was taken after 5 months on TRT so can only assume it was lower before this. I'm done with this GP...

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## edmundo22

Can someone please chime in as to whether or not the low E2 is significant in regards to how I'm feeling? Endo doesn't think so thought you guys might know better, 5months on TRT no longer experiencing any benefits from it so is it the E2 that's deflecting my high test level??

This is really important for me to find out.

Thanks guys.

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## edmundo22

Just give this a little bump, does anyone even know?

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## Vettester

Ed, I can't say that I would be in a happy place sitting at 10.8 on the E2. The best thing you said was that you were through with that GP. This I agree on. Find a new doctor, run your DHT lab, see if that's the ticket that's holding up your E2 conversion. If you're switching out to injections (which I think you said you were), then that might change the outlook. Put your emphasis into getting a new doctor that can do this for you.

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## edmundo22

Have an appointment for Monday, will get DHT done if it can be, endo's not going to help me on this so the best I can do is try and get prescribed whatever estrogen replacement cream there is, is it progesterone?, don't suppose anyone knows much about this in terms of dosage etc?

Just desperate to sort this out at this stage, doubt anyone on here knows about estrogen replacement in men, doctor doesn't know, endo doesn't know, very little info online, aromatisation deficiency, not enough testosterone being converted into estrogen.

I'm pretty much on my own with this.

If DHT is responsible how does that get fixed??

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## edmundo22

deleted

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## Vettester

If you changed from gels to injections, that itself could redirect the conversion process to start producing higher levels of E2. Also, if your DHT is high, there are treatments that will manage it. However, I would give the body a chance to adjust first if you are indeed going on injections. Your body will in most cases be trying to achieve homeostasis.

Quit the getting drunk stuff! If your body is going through this crisis, do you think flooding it with poison is going to help? And Ed, sorry, but TRT isn't the "be all, end all" for a perfect life. It is only one component of a multitude of variables that you need in order to function properly. Alcohol will only add toxicity to the desire to find well being and optimization. I know, I was there at one point in my life.

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## kelkel

Ed, like Vette said, switching to injections will lower your DHT levels. When I switched it was due to very high DHT levels. One month after switching my DHT level dropped in half to what I consider a good level.

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## edmundo22

Sorry just back from a night out with that last post. I'll order shots online as soon as I can as doc says this is a no go, I'll order the DHT test again not even sure if they do them here.

Also started carbergoline today, not sure what to expect...

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## edmundo22

Here's a line from Dr. Crysler's guide to TRT success " To end the debate on this topic, transdermal T gels/creams are more likely to elevate estrogen than injections "

Is this right?
I'v made a post on allthingsmale about my situation I'm sure yee guys are sick of hearing about it.

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## zaggahamma

Debate over? Eh idk...let's just keep it an ongoing journal...e follows t majority of the time and we r all individual with how so so thus we should treat ourselves accordingly

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## edmundo22

The carbergoline is effectively treating the depression that Iv had for the past 14 years for which I'm very grateful for, if it wasn't for this forum I would never have know about it so thank you Vette and Gd for that. Iv told every doctor in the past I have had zero libido for God knows how long, Iv only been researching all this myself these past 5 months but how hard is it for a doctor to figure it out?

I'm just about ready to make my order for injections, think with the depression out of the way I can now focus on a successful TRT protocol, will get BW 6 weeks after first injection and hopefully will see a healthy rise in E2.

The response I got on allthingsmale was Gels give better conversion and even more so if I apply to fatty areas?

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## edmundo22

I think the only way to raise my E2 is if I raise my test from 850 to 1000, if I got it up to 850 on gel do you reckon it would be much higher from injections?

What do you guys think?

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## zaggahamma

all good u thanked all that helped u best of luck here out

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## zaggahamma

reckon so?

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## edmundo22

I was only thanking vette n gd for putting me on to carber, I'm very grateful for all the help I have got on here including yourself JPK :Smilie:

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## Vettester

Hmmm ... I've seen more of an opposite effect from gels with the E2 conversion, being that some see to be more prone to have increased 5A-R conversion to DHT, thus lacking sufficient E2 conversion from testosterone . Increasing your total serum level isn't the way to go. You will just be getting other sides and complications. the 850 serum isn't broken! Fix what's broken, leave what's fixed alone.

So, the same question stands, did you run a DHT panel? Also, I thought I read somewhere that you were going take some sort of compounded estrogen cream? Maybe that was someone else ... Anyways, glad the caber is helping. Don't get carried away with it, as it's a very potent compound.

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## edmundo22

I doubled checked with the lab they don't check for DHT in Ireland sorry. If I knew women's estrogen cream would do the job I'd get it tomorrow, seems a bit out there but do you think this is a good route for me and if so how would I get the dosage right?

Second question is lowering DHT through injections going to increase E2?

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## edmundo22

Vette I read your wifes on HRT thought maybe you might have some insight into estrogen replacement?

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## Vettester

> Vette I read your wifes on HRT thought maybe you might have some insight into estrogen replacement?


Yeah, but the big degree of separation is that it's BHRT for females. There are many more variables involved in her regiment than what goes into mine, as her doctor manages the amount of application based on cyclical phase (follicular, ovulation, luteal). Her last E2 lab was at 194 at ovulation, and that's just middle of the road. Her compounded estrogen and progesterone is very potent (just ask my cat). She also takes 8mg of test cyp ew. Ed, you really don't want to be dinkering with this estrogen stuff unless you have a DAMN good doctor overseeing it. And I can't envision a damn good doctor prescribing estrogen replacement therapy to you.

Surely DHT testing can be found in the country of Ireland? Again, you need to find the problem (which could be DHT) and fix it at that level.

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## kelkel

Ed, DHT is a natural estrogen blocker via about three different pathways. So probably yes but we are all unique.

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## edmundo22

Sweet, I've been reading up on DHT and a lot of guys who experience high DHT on gels all seem to get a lot hair growth on the belly, iv noticed this myself not much growth elsewhere. Know I need BW to confirm it but It's still a good indicator. Deleted

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## kelkel

Ah, extortion. Now that's a different tactic. Be careful there.

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## Vettester

> Ah, extortion. Now that's a different tactic. Be careful there.


I was just going to mention this is just clearly extortion.

I think I've exhausted myself on this thread ...

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## Vettester

Not to mention the posing as a doctor bit. 

Ed, truthfully I don't want to participate on a thread that suggests criminal activity. 

You know things like this can potentially get your thread locked?

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## edmundo22

Honestly wasnt thinking extortion, the guy screwed me over pretty badly I paid him 250 for a consultation that never took place and when I tried to contact him to have bw done he sent me an email saying he no longer wanted to have further engagements with me, the whole thing was suspect from the start only had contact through emails and the secretary had a mobile there was no landline, the e-mail I sent him was just why the TRT was no longer working and could he write me a script of cyp and told him I was dropping the complaint, wasn't Hi give me a script and Ill drop the complaint.

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## edmundo22

Hate to drag this thread back up but just a quick update, Iv been off TRT for the past 3 weeks due to the gel allergy and it won't be for another two weeks till I get on injections, is this ok??, wouldn't dream of doing this if If the carbergoline wasn't working so well.

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## edmundo22

what needle is good to inject cyp?

Also my test in coming in 250 mg vials, I only need to inject 60mg weekly how do I measure this?

Thanks guys.

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## zaggahamma

.24 ml will be your target my Irish friend

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## zaggahamma

been using 23guage 1 and a half for 7 years always gluteus maximus with no problems

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## edmundo22

Nice one JPK.

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## edmundo22

So I've been off TRT 5 weeks now, Gotta say I'm pretty damn depressed but no where near as severe as when I was on TRT without carber which is still making me nauseous on week 3, no energy completely wrecked, package is coming this week so hopefully all Will start to work out after my first injection and if I get to experience horny again I'm going straight to a prostitute this time.

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## edmundo22

Hmmm, so this is crashing, gotta say this is a lot of fun, feeling super, postal service hurry the F up.

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## edmundo22

Package came today, It's in 1 ml Amps 250 mg, not sure exactly how I measure 60 mg?

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## zaggahamma

> Package came today, It's in 1 ml Amps 250 mg, not sure exactly how I measure 60 mg?


wtf

u dont trust me???

geeeeeeeeeeeeeez

lol/jk

.24 is the measurement my bro that is ROUGHLY 1/4 OR 1CC, or 1/4 of 1ml (cc and ml are the same) and 1/4 of 1ml/cc at 250mg per ml is a little over 60mg LIKE I ALREADY TOLD U  :Smilie: .......

.24 is the exact 

do u need someone else to x2 my math?

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## edmundo22

Cheers for that JPK, just my head is currently up my ass, now I have to try and get hold of a syringe, the saga continues.

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## edmundo22

The local needle exchange only has 29 gauge 1ml syringe's will this suffice?

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## edmundo22

I read a post on allthingsmale with a guy with the same problem, he had to add large doses of HCG and DHEA to get is E2 up, what do you guys think about this?

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## zaggahamma

same thing bro

same thing

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelax a little  :Smilie:

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## zaggahamma

ggggggggggggggggggggoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooogggg gggggggggglllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

is 

your

friend

 :Smilie:

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## edmundo22

Sorry for dragging this thread back up just wondering is it possible my LH 2.9 as gone down lower since the last blood test?, its only 50 mg testim gel per week, does HTPA always get completely suppressed/shutdown?

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## Vettester

Exogenous test causes suppression of the HPTA, there's no way around it. The HPTA responds with LH when it is signaled that testosterone levels are low. When you administer exogenous bio identical testosterone , the HPTA believes the body is satisfied with testosterone, therefore it has no need to signal LH to the testicles to produce more. After time, the HPTA loses its ability function, even when testosterone levels go back down. 

Unless the condition is primary, this is why men go on TRT to begin with. If your testicles function properly, and your HPTA is healthy (also excluding tumors in the pituitary region), then everything should be in working order, no need for exogenous test. This is also why AAS cycles require a PCT. It's basically to wake up the HPTA to function again. Go long enough without a PCT and the HPTA won't wake up.

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## edmundo22

Vette what do you make of my situation?, it wasn't until I converted my bassline TT to ng/dl I released it was pretty high to begin with 600 ng/dl, 21 nmol didn't seem like much at the time and I had thought I had doubled my TT while on TRT when really it was just an increase of 240.

Iv asked on two other forums about my e2 and they both said it was too low, as Iv stated before zero libido for 12 years and depression / bad moods for even longer. all started when I was 15 perhaps when hormones start to take effect?

I had to stop TRT due to allergy for over two months and slowly slipped into a depression that came close to manic, went out got a box of testim thinking I would still have the allergy but would stop the depression, four days on Testim no allergy feeling a lot better could be placebo though.

Iv been applying to my fatty stomach area to increase e2.  So l know low Test definitely isn't a problem for me but feeling a lot better on TRT so maybe its been the e2 increase alongside the test increase that's accounting for these benefits?

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## edmundo22

Does anyone know where .e2 is supposed to be in a total not sensitive assay range?

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## Vettester

Ed, I can't really comment on where the E2 score needs to be on a non-sensitive assay. It would be all speculation. Find a method to get the sensitive assay, along with probably running all the other needed hormone panels.

If you're feeling better with things, then maybe it's all going in the right direction. But again, it's just all speculation without BW. I don't want to rehash your whole thread or anything, but I don't quite get why you started TRT with a baseline serum of 600ng/dl? 

Either way, I think part of this is that you got a little over your head with getting into this, but not having all the sufficient resources to manage it properly, i.e., adequate medical supervision, labs, funds, etc. Don't take it as a knock, as that tends to happen to quite a few people. However, now that you're in the thick of it, please do your best to seek out a physician that can get on the same page with you.

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## edmundo22

Will do, I'm going back to the Gp who stated my e2 was too low, he advised me to see an endo 1st but she wouldn't do anything and I know this guy will work with me, like I said when I got my bassline in nmol it really didn't seem that high, if I saw it as 600 I might have known better but then again I wouldn't ever have known about estradiol, if low e2 is in fact a problem then I'm going to go with a trial of HCG alone.

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## Vettester

Is there any chance your HPTA could benefit from trying a restart? If you were at 600ng/dl, then your pituitary was functioning halfway decent at one point. The question is how long has it been now since you introduced exogenous test? Maybe too much time has gone by and now there's no other course. However, if it's only been 6 months or so, you might stand a chance to fire it back up with a SERM.

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## edmundo22

Its been 6 months, 50 mg isn't really that much so not sure just how much my HTPA got suppressed, the first month or so I felt great but guess that was before HTPA suppression, I feel better on test then without regardless of my high bassline and I'm not quite sure why that is, maybe its been the estradiol increase or am I chasing a dead end with that?, not sure what to do just yet, think no.1 priority right now is just feeling better and if that means taking test then so be it, I injected 1ml of test enthate last night to test the allergy so far none. 

Doctor appointment next week, will bring Gd's thread on low e2 along with information on hcg try and educate my doc as much as I can.

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