# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  HRT Expert Dr. Mark Gordon on why arimidex may not be needed and how he avoids it

## HRTstudent

As you may know, I feel that some of our best information comes from doctors on the front lines treating patients and contributing to the body of knowledge that is HRT. Dr Mark Gordon is one of these doctors, and here are some really interesting words I came across while googling. I thought it was important that I share this with everyone.

From http://www.antiagingspace.com/aa-wik...question_id=26 circa 2011




> First off why would anyone need an estrogen blocker? Not rhetorical but, I can't hear your answer. So here is my take on this whole issue of testosterone replacement . If you replace or supplement the body with the amount of testosterone that it makes you don't run into needing estrogen blockers EBs. A number of studies from as far back as 1963 (in my collection) show that healthy solid males between the age of 25-35 produce from 4.1-10mg of T a day. That is about 60mg a week (median). So why would you need more? 
> 
> I believe that the medical world has relied on the bodybuilding world for directions in how to abuse our bodies with super physiological doses of T. In 15 years with over 10,000 patient cycles (3 months) I've never used EBs to recover from E2 overload in a male. Also, Zinc blocks conversion of T to E2 by competitive inhibition of magnesium at the estradiol synthetase enzyme that we call Aromatase. So if you perform comprehensive assessments of your patients before starting hormones then add the Zn. 
> 
> More than 80% of my population use 60-40mg of T a week. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week. A rare 100mg a week. I am in shock at the number of traditional physicians that start a patient on 200-300mg a week and automatically use an EB. I am even more perplexed over those of us who trained in interventional endocrinology and use excessive amounts. If we are to promote ourselves as safe alternatives to traditional medicine should we not provide that to our patients? All the best. M L Gordon. Watch for my new Medical Tidbits coming exclusively to the Anti-Aging Space.



He also mentions Zinc as an aromatase inhibitor as well:




> As Ryan at Access has known for almost 3 years I completed an 8 year Zinc Citrate study and the results supported all the information that was available in the scientific literature but never fully clinically tested. I did the testing with hundreds of Males. I have started to write Medical Tidbits for AAS and ACCESS. The inaugural one is on Reverse T3. Lots that needs to be checked before just giving Cytomel or T3 as treatment. Then the subsequent one will be on Estrone and DHEA and 7-Keto-DHEA. I finished a 2 year clinical study on that one too. It is just a matter of going back to some of the foundational aspects of Endocrinology. All these nuances will be part of the coming 2 day workshop called - The LIE, The Laboratory of Interventional Endocrinology. It is an expansion of the course I gave on The Clinical Application of Interventional Endocrinology. The information that will be shared can make a hugh difference in physicians scratching the surface and digging deep into the problem. 
> All the best. 
> Mark



A previous poster talks about Dr Gordon's protocol for Zinc:

"Dr. Mark Gordon he says to lower your testosterone dosage to physiologic levels and take *60mg of Zinc citrate 3x/day*. Arimidex is Not good for your body."

I do not know where he specifically has written about his take on Copper when you supplement with such large doses of Zinc. This would, I imagine, be very important to consider and I imagine he definitely supplements with added copper.

----------


## vetvso

That is very intersting since I started my Zinc suppliments last thursday, and all of a sudden my energy and power in the gym increased in a major way.

----------


## steroid.com 1

I personally think that Dr. Gordon is one of, if not, the top medical authority on male hormonal health in the vertical.

I think it's interesting that he uses terms like "estrogen blocker" when compounds like anastrozole are not "blockers" technically it's incorrect unless he's talking about something else. 

Anastrozole competes and does NOT block. 

Additionally, the excerpts posted here are limited in scope.

If a middle aged man presenting with age related androgen deficiency who is now seriously over weight and presenting with elevated E2 and very suppressed Testosterone serum levels will need an AI when they start a TRT protocol...that's a fact.

E follows T in most middle aged androgen deficient men and any increase in Testosterone levels will only add fuel to the fire if you will.

So while I would see Dr. Gordon in a heart beat I am willing to bet a ton of beer and pizza that he wouldn't disagree with my commentary here.

----------


## steroid.com 1

Let me add; this is why I love this guy, kid you not:

"More than 80% of my population use* 60-40mg of T a week*. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week. *A rare 100mg a week*. I am in shock at the number of traditional physicians that start a patient on 200-300mg a week and automatically use an EB. I am even more perplexed over those of us who trained in interventional endocrinology and use excessive amounts. If we are to promote ourselves as safe alternatives to traditional medicine should we not provide that to our patients? All the best. M L Gordon. Watch for my new Medical Tidbits coming exclusively to the Anti-Aging Space."

Really nice find HRT, brings many of us to the realities.

gd

PS This "interventional endocrinology" is his terminology and isn't one you will find in the medical vertical. He's still one of the best in my personal opinion...read his papers and you will know.

----------


## bp2000

I agree that lower doses should be tried first. But 60mg of Test Cyp. is not 60mg of T. You would need to dose a little higher to compensate for the long ester. 40mg x2 a week seems like a good place to start.

----------


## lovbyts

Interesting about the Zinc. I was reading on it a couple of weeks ago and posted the findings somewhere on here and for someone who was looking for a natural AI. I started taking zinc also but I'm not good at EVERY day.

----------


## MuscleInk

Interesting post. I'm a proponent of zinc as there are several benefits. Some in the research and clinical community however, believe that elemental zinc supplements may increase the risk of prostate cancer by as much as two fold. I'm spending a bit of time lately reviewing the literature further as this would be a considerable concern if accurate since anabolic agents often elevate PSA. Preliminary reports suggest a correlation between zinc and prostate cancer RISK, and not causality.

----------


## bass

Interesting discussion guys. I thought zinc was supposed to be good for prostate!

----------


## steroid.com 1

Every man should take 50mg of zinc every day...but don't count on it to act as an AI...it won't do it effectively.

----------


## MuscleInk

> Interesting discussion guys. I thought zinc was supposed to be good for prostate!


Yes, I've come across that too - originally why I was an advocate of Zn.

I'll be looking into this further. If a topic of interest, I'd be happy to start a thread with information for discussion.

----------


## Renholder

I`m also interested if he has anything to say on copper.

I never tested copper, but zinc was bottom range. After supplementing for a short time, 50 mg per day, my zinc increased to top of the range. This time I also measured copper and it was bottom range. There is copper in my multivitamin, but I suppose I may need to take more.

Regards,

Renholder

----------


## kelkel

Zinc and Testosterone :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8875519

Here's a link to zinc on Examine.com (great site btw. Save to your favorites.) I've talked to the owner of this site. Nice guy, vitamin nerd, or so he calls himself:

http://examine.com/supplements/Zinc/

----------


## MickeyKnox

^^ Hey buddy im diggin the new avi! It appears more and more guys are humanizing their avi's. Looking lean and mean bro! 

HRT, fabulous find! Thanks for sharing that!

----------


## kelkel

Lean is subjective. Mean? Well, I'm Irish....

----------


## HRTstudent

> Let me add; this is why I love this guy, kid you not:
> 
> "More than 80% of my population use* 60-40mg of T a week*. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week. *A rare 100mg a week*. I am in shock at the number of traditional physicians that start a patient on 200-300mg a week and automatically use an EB. I am even more perplexed over those of us who trained in interventional endocrinology and use excessive amounts. If we are to promote ourselves as safe alternatives to traditional medicine should we not provide that to our patients? All the best. M L Gordon. Watch for my new Medical Tidbits coming exclusively to the Anti-Aging Space."
> 
> Really nice find HRT, brings many of us to the realities.
> 
> gd
> 
> PS This "interventional endocrinology" is his terminology and isn't one you will find in the medical vertical. He's still one of the best in my personal opinion...read his papers and you will know.


That was very noteworthy to me as well. I imagine the low dose of T has _more_ (not all) to do with never needing an AI than the zinc.

----------


## xtitan1

Interesting discussion. I know in Shippen's book written over 10 years ago he talked about Zinc for lowering e2, but he still prescribes AIs. Next appointment I will try to remember to ask him about this. Maybe I will record a video on my iPad or something.

----------


## HRTstudent

> Interesting discussion. I know in Shippen's book written over 10 years ago he talked about Zinc for lowering e2, but he still prescribes AIs. Next appointment I will try to remember to ask him about this. Maybe I will record a video on my iPad or something.


Please do let us know.

Specifically useful would be:

1 what dose he uses,2 does he split it up,3 what form of zinc,4 what does he do, if anything, about copper, and5 roughly what percentage of men on TRT does he recommend zinc to?

If you could get that info to us... it would be great! I'm excited... maybe you can email his office? lol

----------


## kelkel

^^To a point, yes. It's all about balance right? Another reason to routinely give blood.

----------


## steroid.com 1

> I am surprised one would advocate Zinc while on injectable testosterone, since it can aid in elevating Hematocrit and Hemoglobin, one of the biggest worries when using injectable testosterone.


Hell, my TRT Physician compounds in 2mg of Zinc right in my Test Cyp.

In order for it to raise Hematocrit and Hemoglobin one needs to take in a lot more zinc than the recommended dosage.

----------


## steroid.com 1

> Well I personally would find a new physician, *I have seen it hundreds of times*. It does not take much to elevate Hemo, on top of that, I personally am not going to throw gasoline on a fire. Its not like I pulled that out of my ass, many well renowned HRT docs have said it.


On this forum such as ours we like to see proof or empirical evidence when it comes to definitive statements; show us just 20 of those "_hundreds of times_" where you've seen it so we can understand your point. 

My TRT Physician, by the way, is one of the best in the county when it comes to Hormone Replacement Therapy in men and you think you know more then a Harvard schooled hormonal specialist?

Dr. John Crisler speaks and writes much about Zinc deficiency in men (it's actually a very high rate by the way) relative to elevated E2 levels and promotes men taking 50mg of Zinc every day; in fact it's one of his top nutrients for men.

Here's another fact: More than 70% of men do not obtain the minimum daily requirement of zinc from their diets. Understanding that 70% of men are Zinc deficient and knowing that this mineral is necessary for all aspects of male reproduction, including overall hormone metabolism (effects all pathways) and balance, prostate function, and sperm formation and motility...you can see why supplementation of a daily low dose of 50mg daily can help reverse these pathologies. 

Read Dr Dzugan papers on nutritional supplements for aging men and he states the same thing re Zinc in the recommended dosages. 

One of the biggest reasons for elevated E2 serum levels in man today is due primarily to dietary Zinc deficiency; again, the recommended dosage is 50mg ZN/2mg Cu QDn.

Prove your point with something substantial and validate yourself and please don't take this as a personal affront; our goal here is to provide correct information to members and quests as best as we possibly can. 

Peace.

gd

----------


## vetvso

According to the research I have found so far.

Zinc as an E2 blocker will need to be in the 100mg plus range.

----------


## kelkel

Interesting information Det-Oak. I still have concerns with it over the recommendations of docs such as Gordon, Crisler, Shippen, as well as Scally but I will none the less give it consideration. Differing points of view are encouraged here and it is up the the members to decide which course of action is best for them in conjunction, hopefully, with an astute doctor and proper blood work, right!

My doc as well encouraged zinc from day one so this theory is very prevalent. Blood work from 10/25/12 had my Hemo at 14.1, scale 12.6 - 17.7and my Hema at 43.9, scale 37.5 - 51.0. Frequent monitoring of your blood is obviously key in the TRT world to managing your health, IMHO.

I'm interested in hearing more from both GD and you on this as I think it's a relevant conversation and I appreciate it, as I'm sure other members do as well.

Thanks to the both of you,


kel

----------


## steroid.com 1

This ---> If you disagree, I am ok with that.

I wouldn't say I totally disagree with you as your points are very well stated and clearly you have clinical experience...at least it appears that way.

You are correct in that my statements were focused on the larger male population and not necessarily men on TRT protocols.

But to kel's point, almost every hormone replacement Physician that I have studied all recommend 50mg of Zinc daily. 

In fact, there are several studies out there that suggest that zinc plays a critical role in regulating the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. Granted, they were animal studies if I recall, but they surmised that dietary supplementation with zinc slowed the conversion of testosterone to DHT.

Dr Mark Gordon almost never uses an AI in his approach to TRT protocols in men but rather uses high-dose zinc to inhibit the aromatase enzyme. In Gordon's book he discusses Zinc Citrate dosages in the amounts of 160mg per day, in divided doses. (Any man thinking of taking this amount must add Copper to their supplements in the ratio of roughly 25:1 of zinc:copper.)

Zinc is key in that it helps make thyroid releasing hormone (TRH) in our brain. This in turn signals the pituitary to make thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH). 

Low zinc levels, whether or not a man is on a TRT protocol or not, is associated with low T3 serum levels and a reduced ability to convert T4 to T3 (similar to the need for selenium for Thyroid health).

Also, if a man ingests a 50mg pill he'd be very luck if 5% to 7% of that compound actually made it into his bloodstream after the digestion process and first pass effect...so at the end of day it's still a very low dosage amount. 

At any rate, it's all good discussion and it's what stimulates us all here to learn more and understand that there is no "one way" in TRT management for men.

Thanks for the response and contribution Det-Oak.

gd

----------


## kelkel

The last two posts define this forum IMO. It's what makes it such a worthwhile place to visit and learn from so many other like minded, yet diverse individuals with common goals.

Thanks!

kel

----------


## Sworder

> But to kel's point, *almost every hormone replacement Physician that I have studied all recommend 50mg of Zinc daily.* 
> 
> In fact, there are several studies out there that suggest that zinc plays a critical role in regulating the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. Granted, they were animal studies if I recall, but they surmised that dietary supplementation with zinc slowed the conversion of testosterone to DHT.
> gd


Why do they recommend it? Yes, it plays a critical role in conversion to DHT, but is this why it is prescribed?

Yes, I did read the part about the aromatase.. Surely this isn't the reason to why it is prescribed.

----------


## steroid.com 1

> Why do they recommend it? Yes, it plays a critical role in conversion to DHT, but is this why it is prescribed?
> 
> Yes, I did read the part about the aromatase.. Surely this isn't the reason to why it is prescribed.


70% of men in the general population are deficient in Zinc due to dietary causes.

Men need Zinc...see some of my reasons posted above. 

Have at it: http://www.lef.org/search/?q=zinc%20...ion&c=Magazine

----------


## Sworder

> You are correct in that *my statements were focused on the larger male population* and not necessarily men on TRT protocols.
> gd


Yes, that makes sense. Still peculiar that TRT docs would prescribe it, in my opinion. What deficits are looked at to determine if supplementation is needed? Or perhaps it is simply as you state, most men are deficient so lets give him some.  :Smilie:

----------


## steroid.com 1

Honestly, I think it's just this---->"Or perhaps it is simply as you state, most men are deficient so lets give him some."

Men need zinc and we don't get enough in our regular daily diet; in fact one of the leading TRT Practitioners uses it as a natural aromatase inhibitor...what this entire thread is about.

There's something to it...

----------


## Sworder

> Honestly, I think it's just this---->"Or perhaps it is simply as you state, most men are deficient so lets give him some."


Fair enough  :Smilie:

----------


## steroid.com 1

> and I thought we were on the right track and now we have went backwards lol


He asked "in a general sense" and I believe it's just a matter of knowing that men, for the most part, are deficient in Zinc due to dietary intake and good Physicians know that a moderate supplementation protocol is a better insurance policy than having nothing.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today or are you always like this???

----------


## steroid.com 1

This thread was originally started by HRT in regards Dr. Mark Gordon's use of a daily high dose Zinc regiment combined with a low dose Testosterone replacement protocol and no need for an AI in controlling E2 and the success he's had with it.

Read his book, I have, and its very convincing by a cutting edge highly respected TRT Physician.

BTW, it's not just one TRT Doc recommending Zinc supplementation in men...it's most of them. 

You must know somethings they don't...

I had enough, I am going to bed.

----------


## steroid.com 1

"So he can sell his book to someone else."

That's the response I pretty much what I expected to see; I'd give my right arm to see you debate Dr. Gordon...maybe both LOL!

----------


## HRTstudent

And for what it's worth, I love to find out if I'm dead wrong about something. But I need to be thoroughly convinced of it, like most people  :Big Grin:  . 

If I find myself abandoning old "facts" then it must mean I am learning something new, perhaps more valuable, and surely it should aid me in figuring out whatever I am trying to figure out! I'd hate to try to find a sun-rise if I were to always travel west!

----------


## steroid.com 1

This is the problem HRT when you talk about mass populations----> "Also, what kind of diet are people consistently getting enough zinc that they have no need to supplement?"

In the mass population _diets are deficient in Zinc_...why is it so freaking hard to get that point across??? 

And it's use as a natural AI has been proven by Dr. Gordon in his research and clinical practice.

----------


## steroid.com 1

> And for what it's worth, I love to find out if I'm dead wrong about something. But I need to be thoroughly convinced of it, like most people  . 
> 
> If I find myself abandoning old "facts" then it must mean I am learning something new, perhaps more valuable, and surely it should aid me in figuring out whatever I am trying to figure out! I'd hate to try to find a sun-rise if I were to always travel west!


Love it!!!

That's precisely why you are Red my brother!!!

----------


## HRTstudent

Thanks for that study (first link) on zinc. I just started reading it and it's really good so far. But i'll have to finish reading it tomorrow.

Also, I've read that zinc citrate might not be THE best form of zinc (its far from the worse though, and even the above article cites citrate improves zinc absorption). I thought about it as well as to why Dr Gordon uses it. I would really like to hear from him why he chooses it. But right now, I figure that he uses it because it works and he knows how to use it clinically.

----------


## kelkel

That's half the issue. Most people do not have a proper diet and most will not radically change theirs. People are creatures of habit, atavistic in nature. IMO, the conversation about zinc has ended and now it's about who is correct. The people here can make up their minds with help from their docs if needed. When it comes to debating a doctor such as Gordon or one of the others mentioned, I highly doubt anyone here would stand a chance, including yourself as well.

Everything we ingest causes our bodies to have an action and subsequent reaction. Every vitamin out there has a long list of side effects, even water soluble ones. Matter of fact, if aspirin were just now developed odds are it would be a controlled substance. My point, we all just have to use caution with all we injest when trying to improve our health.

----------


## steroid.com 1

[QUOTE=THE-DET-OAK;6238647]

and what about the copper recommendation ? no mention on that I guess.[QUOTE]

I did mention about copper in this thread: "(Any man thinking of taking this amount must add Copper to their supplements in the ratio of roughly 25:1 of zinc:copper.)"

----------


## kelkel

It has been a good discussion, to a point. I have spoken to many docs myself who would not hold a candle to many of us in certain aspects, particularly TRT. I'm in regular contact with Crisler and Scally as a matter of fact. The doc's referred to in this thread are some of the best in their field. Quite honestly are you saying that your knowledge, skill and abilities surpass the mentioned docs?

----------


## TennTarheel

Is every thread going to start ending this way? I'm all for debate and differing opinions, but it doesn't HAVE to be a cock fight

----------


## kelkel

Not so. You did make some valid points and to that extent it is appreciated. I do not recall saying you were wrong about anything and most of the time have complimented you if you recall. The point-counterpoints have been good for the most part.

----------


## steroid.com 1

"I guess just because this doc said so they are right................. it amazes me how people follow others like sheep."

It's your general tone and overall arrogance that's causing the problems here; what makes you more of an authority then the leading medical minds in the TRT business?

*I've never seen a thread turn like this one did in my entire time here; it's ugly, it sucks and I don't like it and won't tolerate it.*

In my personal opinion, you are way too definitive in your responses and you downcast the top medical minds in Hormone Replacement Therapies for men and it just comes off really bad.

I am not a Doctor nor do I have any clinical experience. Everything I know is self taught, attending LEF conferences, speaking to practitioners, studying research papers...on and on...but I am no Doctor and can't compare myself to those practitioners who "get it"...I learn from them. 

I do my utmost best and try not to be so definitive in my posts because from everything I've learned over the years is that there is nothing about this that is 100% certain; we're all different and we all react in different ways.

When I study the best minds in this business and where they are all pretty much in agreement with a certain protocol or practice that says something to me and I learn from it and by no means do I take is as definitive...things always change.

Like kel stated; no one here is disagreeing with you and your points, some are very well made; its just your definitive tone and overall angst that is screaming throughout your posts.

You clearly have issues with some members and management here and that tied to your ultra authoritative and definitive tone is a just a big turn off for everyone here...seriously.

----------


## ZenFitness

For what it's worth, I did a huge amount of vitamin and herbal supplementation research earlier this year, and, while I think herbal supplements are snake oil and stupid, vitamins are not. Everything I read consistently said that men should take 40 - 50 mg of zinc a day (for test, hair, and a whole host of other things including well being), 2000 - 4000 mg of fish oil a day (for the heart), 1000 mg of vitamin C a day (preferably 500 in the morning and 500 at night - for cortisol and stress), and 2000 - 6000 iU's of vitamin D a day (for a host of health reasons including free test). I take zinc picolinate as it supposedly is absorbed the best (although citrate is close behind it). Zinc helps a myriad of things for men ranging from hair loss to increasing free testosterone to helping fight too much estrogen (although the latter I wouldn't rely on zinc for).

The real interesting point of this thread is that it may be better to take less than 100mg of test a week... I've been looking at 100mg as the norm (it's what I do now), but maybe dialing back to 80mg would be something to consider.

----------


## ZenFitness

The picolinate or the citrate? I could be mis-remembering the absorption of citrate (it has been months since I read up on all this) as I found everyone pointing to picolinate and just went for the best.

----------


## steroid.com 1

> Sorry Gdevine, your argument of "well 70% of men are deficient because of diet" argument doesn't sit well with me. Its actually one of the most foolish things I have heard you say.


Just Google this and you will see how foolish I really am :Wink: 

"More than 70% of men do not obtain the minimum daily requirement of zinc"

Have fun...

----------


## HRTstudent

> *The real interesting point of this thread is that it may be better to take less than 100mg of test a week... I've been looking at 100mg as the norm (it's what I do now), but maybe dialing back to 80mg would be something to consider.*


 :Big Grin:  at least we are at least somewhat discussing this other critical tidbit presented  :Big Grin: 

As for the zinc. The link above has a lot of good info, and if you are a person interested in zinc I really recommend reading it. (Unfortunately, it has not always been accurately portrayed in this thread.)

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1378S.full "Dietary Factors Influencing Zinc Absorption"

But I'll throw in my 2 cents. It appears that from the study Zinc citrate is better than other forms of zinc, but it's not necessarily the best. Absorbing phytate with zinc is definitely a hindrance. And, Dr Mark Gordon uses zinc citrate and it works for him. 

These are pretty much the facts we can store away in our memory banks if we want to whittle down the argument for brain-saving purposes.

----------


## ZenFitness

> *the real point that everyone should take out of this thread, is that on a high protein diet, zinc supps wont do shit for you.*


Not necessarily true. High protein does not equal high zinc.

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/zinc.php

Unless you are eating gobs of red meat for your protein or a shitload of oysters, then you aren't running a high zinc intake. Chicken is on the list, but it is the chicken leg... I'd wager most folks are eating chicken breast.

(EDIT: some protein powders can run a good zinc content... the one I used to use does not list zinc, but I found one that has 30%)

One final note... THE-DET-OAK, even though I'm coming off somewhat antagonistic to what you are saying, I am certainly interested. I have never heard what you are saying, so please understand why I would be skeptical. You said that you can't cite anything because of HIPAA laws - are you a doctor? If so, can you somewhat generically cite something?

----------


## HRTstudent

> the only one that inaccurately portrayed anything about the study is you.
> 
> the only thing zinc citrate absorbs better than is milk fortified with zinc lol which they use in 3rd world countries so hey, at least its better than that lol
> 
> I can see now you have a hard time keeping up with the studies I posted, so I am fighting a losing argument, simply because you are not capable of understanding what I am telling you. Don't worry though, if you keep repeating it, it will become reality soon enough lol
> 
> *the real point that everyone should take out of this thread, is that on a high protein diet, zinc supps wont do shit for you.*
> 
> But hey Dr Gordon uses it lol who BTW I have never even heard of before this thread lol
> ...


Whats up with the name calling? Sheesh... I never attacked you or anything so why the hostility?

You draw all these conclusions but you don't tell us where? I don't understand. The study you posted was worthwhile but then you go off and call citrate inorganic, label it as garbage (from the study "Amino acids, such as histidine and methionine, and other low-molecular-weight ions, such as EDTA and organic acids (e.g., citrate), are known to have a positive effect on zinc absorption"), belittle Mark Gordon who has been doing this for decades (I read in another thread that about 2 years ago you were asking about the negatives of HRT), and now you insist that I don't "get" it?...

Man, you need to post less and take a break from interpreting data and literature!

----------


## steroid.com 1

"Whats up with the name calling? Sheesh... I never attacked you or anything so why the hostility?"

Because HRT he has an issue with some Mods and Management here and wants to poison our water.

It's time for him to go.

----------


## HRTstudent

Well, I guess he got caught up in it then.

But really nobody here is against being challenged but we can't let it resort to pettiness and name calling. There's actually some good info in this thread and it could be really useful. 

I'm sure we will see more topics on the matter of less AI use and, hopefully, some peoples' feedback on lower T doses, both of which seem to be catching on.

----------


## Sworder

Main points from this thread, correct me if I am wrong:

Dr Gordon prescribes low-dose testosterone , something a lot of patients are not too joyous about. High end of normal is preferable for most.

Zinc is not an AI. Zinc deficiency can cause alterations of aromatase activity. Most men on this forum are probably getting enough zinc from protein powder/diet. 70% of men, yes. But not 70% of the people whom are interested in reaping the benefits of TRT and certainly not the crowd that is reading this message.

If you don't have doctor in or around your name your opinion .... Nevermind, lets just say that once you achieve a doctorate you are placed on Mount Olympus  :Smilie: 

TRT experts prescribe zinc because most men need it. LMFAO

----------


## Swifto

> what the hell are you talking about, i am not trying to poison any water, you started attacking me. You are a baby gdevine, I was very polite to you in this entire thread until you decided to attack my integrity. "wishing I could debat the Dr" ?
> 
> You are being paranoid.
> 
> HRT student, I did not call you any names so I don't know what your talking about. You implied that I mis-represented the study and I did not, so it ruffled my feathers, don't see any name calling though.
> 
> It really doesn't matter what I say, I am disagreeing with you and your Dr and you don't like it. its really that simple. You 2 are the only ones taking it personal. 
> 
> I have provided ample evidence for my argument and the only thing you guys have done, is keep repeating that this Dr uses it successfully.
> ...


Chill out before you ruin this thread.

----------


## steroid.com 1

"It wouldn't matter how polite I was in this thread, gdevine doesn't agree with me so he wants me to leave, thats the only childish thing being said."

I never said I don't agree with you; in fact, like HRT, in this thread I said you make some very good points.

But your arrogance is overbearing and obnoxious and that's what I disagree with; you come off as the single voice of authority and that you know more then some of the leading clinicians in the country...you're right and they are all wrong. 

In fact, you made a blatant statement to me personally that my Doctor doesn't know what he's doing because he adds in 2mg of Zinc to his compounded Test Cyp. My Doctor is one the nations leading Physicians in hormonal replacement medicine in the country with more then 1000 patients nationwide...and he doesn't know what he's doing? 

You wrote my comment re 70% of the male population being Zinc deficient as "one of the most foolish things you ever heard me say" was not called for and I supported it with a simple Google search. I wasn't talking about men on TRT protocols per se, I was talking about men in general and why Zinc supplementation may be a good idea for men as they don't eat the ideal diets. It wasn't a foolish statement, it was a factual statement that can be supported is all it was.

You point to one or two studies and make your points very definitively as opposed to offering them as a possible alternatives. 

Nothing wrong with that but I would think any rational individual might think these highly trained TRT Medical Physicians probably know just a little bit more then the average layman...but that's just me...everyone else here can make up their own mind on that.

Anyhow, time to take some Aleve, it was a tough night in the gym..and oh, by the way; have a great Halloween!

Peace.

gd

----------


## steroid.com 1

Det-Oak, the TRT Physicians I, and other here reference, are the top guys in their filed not some Endo who is learning along the way...but the true pioneers in this new space.

You stated you just learned about Mark Gordon from this thread; study his papers, read his book (which is one of the best IMO), look at his success...he's doing something right man...and his patients respond and are well. 

Gordon's book The Clinical Application of Interventional Endocrinology is an outstanding read (HRT's OP) and I would recommend anyone here to read it and learn. Go here if you're interested: http://www.amazon.com/The-Clinical-A.../dp/1597775835

Here's a good article published by LEF re his work with using hormones to help men with traumatic brain injuries...it's really very interesting stuff: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2012/...njuries_01.htm

As for changing a mans diet to correct Zinc deficiency, of course that would be ideal but the reality is we don't live in an ideal world...a little insurance goes a long way.

I need my Aleve...shoulders are killing me!!!

----------


## steroid.com 1

> Also your doc has patients nationwide? he must have multi state licensing then................... for a doc with multi state licensing, 1,000 patients is nothing.
> 
> If he doesn't, those patients not in his state may want to re consider using him.


I said specifically "*more than a 1000*" and not "a 1000" and was not specific on an actual number for a reason.

Where's my Aleve...now my head hurts :Wink:

----------


## steroid.com 1

^^^^And you are certainly open to your opinion and I don't "totally" disagree with you on that point.

We live in a world where men are suffering and have few choices to find the right hormonal corrective care.

We help them here by providing information and data from many sources one being what some of the top TRT Physicians prescribe to.

We don't offer it as a definitive cure; only that they can use it seek the right professional care from someone who is familiar with these protocols and nothing more. 

We're not Doctors or clinical researchers here; just men with some knowledge and experience that we can impart to others and help guide thier care.

Lets agreed to end the squabbling here and be done with it...shoulder and arm night and I need to get away from this computer and take some Aelve...did I say that already LOL.

PS. Read his book Det; you will enjoy it and it may open your eyes a bit...well maybe :Wink:

----------


## xtitan1

Why are we debating about how prevalent Zinc deficiency is? If you think you are personally deficient, get your blood tested just like we do for vitamin D. I eat plenty of protein and am deficient and supplement daily. Although the brand I am using is NOW which is a glucanate so maybe I should switch.

Better yet, you could get a NutrEval

http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-repor...ple-Report.pdf

----------


## bass

Damn! I'm gone for couple of days and this place falls apart! LOL.

----------


## junk2222yard

Getting back on track as to the original point of the thread, I think this bit from Gordon is central:



> More than 80% of my population use 60-40mg of T a week. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week.


It is obvious that he is truly just trying to get his patients to have *normal* T levels. The thrust of TRT for most people is generating so-called optimal levels, in the top third of the scale. If you are only shooting for low or mid-range levels like Gordon, it stands to reason that it doesn't require as much exogenous T and therefor less or even zero AI.

----------


## TennTarheel

^^^^ Good point.

----------


## testytim

well stay tuned because i am one of his patients.... and i am having b/w on Monday and as he says the b/w dont lie....your free t numbers dont lie... i will post the journey as it comes. i do 40mg e7days and honesty i feel great i almost really dont give a shit what my numbers are if i feel like this im good to go.. his protocol has turned my life around so far this guy is my hero...... anyway more to come...

tim r

----------


## junk2222yard

> well stay tuned because i am one of his patients.... and i am having b/w on Monday and as he says the b/w dont lie....your free t numbers dont lie... i will post the journey as it comes.


Hey tim, so how did it go yesterday? Are you on anything else besides the small amount of T?

----------


## FRDave

> well stay tuned because i am one of his patients.... and i am having b/w on Monday and as he says the b/w dont lie....your free t numbers dont lie... i will post the journey as it comes. i do 40mg e7days and honesty i feel great i almost really dont give a shit what my numbers are if i feel like this im good to go.. his protocol has turned my life around so far this guy is my hero...... anyway more to come...
> 
> tim r


Speaking of Dr. Mark Gordon, correct? If so, can you shoot me a PM with your protocal and cost? I am currently speaking with his assistant Erin and was quoted $1,250 to start, but this only includes 1st labs and office visit. Trying to get a better understanding of the typical protocal and price as Erin has not answered all my questions such as filling my own scripts, self administration, etc.

thanks in advance,
Dave

----------


## testytim

Yesterday was only b/w never seen Dr.... they came to me for the draw... the draw was after 5 weeks a peak draw. i will only see him once a year. next blood draw after a adjustment will be at 6 mouths then a year.Dr gordon has over 1200 patients on his protocol. His calm is on his protocol only 8% will only be on more. The scripts come out of san diego compounded.. and yes i do self injections.. side note i have insurance so i had so of the labs done on my insurance to help in cost.

----------


## HRTstudent

> Getting back on track as to the original point of the thread, I think this bit from Gordon is central:
> It is obvious that he is truly just trying to get his patients to have *normal* T levels. The thrust of TRT for most people is generating so-called optimal levels, in the top third of the scale. If you are only shooting for low or mid-range levels like Gordon, it stands to reason that it doesn't require as much exogenous T and therefor less or even zero AI.


What makes you say he shoots for "low or mid-range" testosterone levels ? I've never come across something that talks at this.


Also, does anyone know what happened to Anti Aging Space? The web site I had in the original post appears dead and looks like a placeholder page  :Frown:  . So much for that bookmark of good info lol...

----------


## Ryanmcd

Glad I went to Dr Crisler when I started this because I was told all of this from the start and a few other things. I guess you have to ask yourself if the money worth feeling good / being happy everyday....

----------

