# STEROIDS FORUM > PCT (POST CYCLE THERAPY) >  AGGRESSIVE PCT needed for 2 year cycle

## G-Force

ok ive been cycling for 2 years solid

usually 12 - 16 weeks on and 10 - 14 weeks cruise on 250 - 375mg test per week

it seems like ive been only doin this for about a year but i guess if i am honest its more like 2 years

i need to get off cycle as my stomach is very bad - acid reflux and hiatus hernia - i just cant get the calories in anymore
also i have had acompressed lower disc for a while now and need to fix both these things before i start lifintg heavy again

so normally when i used to do pct i would use nolva and clomid for 6 weeks post cycle -sometimes with hcg the last 4 weeks of my cycle

but i have not done pct in 2 years lol and i understand things have changed

i have seen swifto's pct involving aromasin and hcg

i have never used aromasin

i am looking for compounds and doses - considering the length of my cycle i am unsure on best compounds and doses. how about the addition of caber?

i am just comming to the end of a 12 week test (850mg), EQ (800mg) deca (700mg) cycle

money is not an issue - i am just lookin the best possible pct (EVER lol)

cheers

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## Big

My first call would be to use HCG for the remainder of the cycle, then nolva, clomid, and aromasin for pct. I'll stand down and wait for swifto's advice, he knows a lot more about pct than I do.

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## Swifto

> ok ive been cycling for 2 years solid
> 
> usually 12 - 16 weeks on and 10 - 14 weeks cruise on 250 - 375mg test per week
> 
> it seems like ive been only doin this for about a year but i guess if i am honest its more like 2 years
> 
> i need to get off cycle as my stomach is very bad - acid reflux and hiatus hernia - i just cant get the calories in anymore
> also i have had acompressed lower disc for a while now and need to fix both these things before i start lifintg heavy again
> 
> ...


OK...

Have you been using HCG throughout your cycle, or at all?

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## G-Force

> OK...
> 
> Have you been using HCG throughout your cycle, or at all?


yeah usually a small amount towards the end of my blast

but only something like 500iu EOd for 20 days

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## Swifto

> yeah usually a small amount towards the end of my blast
> 
> but only something like 500iu EOd for 20 days


Do you have testicular atrophy? Have you ever had testicular atrophy during this 2 year cycle?

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## OH REALLY

help the man swifto

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## TITANIUM

Swifto is on this, as I see Marcus is also.

I'm going to watch this closely, as I haven't seen such a long cycle except the pro BB's and basically TRT members.

T

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## Gaspari1255

> ok ive been cycling for 2 years solid
> 
> usually 12 - 16 weeks on and 10 - 14 weeks cruise on 250 - 375mg test per week
> 
> it seems like ive been only doin this for about a year but i guess if i am honest its more like 2 years
> 
> i need to get off cycle as my stomach is very bad - acid reflux and hiatus hernia - i just cant get the calories in anymore
> also i have had acompressed lower disc for a while now and need to fix both these things before i start lifintg heavy again
> 
> ...


I don't see how you are escaping TRT...jmo

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## Vitruvian-Man

> ok ive been cycling for 2 years solid
> 
> usually 12 - 16 weeks on and 10 - 14 weeks cruise on 250 - 375mg test per week
> 
> it seems like ive been only doin this for about a year but i guess if i am honest its more like 2 years
> 
> i need to get off cycle as my stomach is very bad - acid reflux and hiatus hernia - i just cant get the calories in anymore
> also i have had acompressed lower disc for a while now and need to fix both these things before i start lifintg heavy again
> 
> ...


24 months on cycle? I'm going to have to agree with ****** here... You've probably set yourself up for TRT... sorry bro.

Anyways, you should definitely get in touch with an Endocrinologist (since money isn't an issue).... They would be the best person to be monitoring your attempt at restoring your HPTA (test-production). I would definitely want a specialist monitoring my blood-work in a situation like this. 

Anyways, I was just helping someone in a similar situation in another thread.. you should probably read through it for some good info. (pay special attention to post #6) 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...35#post4930235

Good luck.

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## sportfan33

just reading the threads, will be following this up

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## Swifto

You can bounce back, I've seen some bounce back after more than 2 years, but this is VERY individual. You may have saved yourself from HRT by using HCG whilst "on". But if testicular dysfunction has set in fully, your going to struggle. 

My advice is to stay on a very low dose of Test Enan 100-150mg/wk, then run HCG at 500ius/ED for 14-21 days with Arimidex 0.5mg/EOD or Aromasin 10mg/EOD. That should kick your testes into action again and hopefully stimulate the leydig cells into producing endogenous T. 

Drop the AI the on day 14 or 21, whenever your testes regain volume/size. Alhtough I'd be inclined to go 21 days. 

Then you need some Tore and Clomid. If you cant handle the Clomid sides, use Tamox at 20mg/ED.

Tore 120/120/100/60/60/60
Clomid 100/50/25/25/25/25 OR Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

Get BW done 5-6 weeks after that and if you havent bounced back, go see an Endo, you may need HRT. Although some studies on SERMs restoring the HPTA are as long as 12 weeks. You could go 12 weeks if you want too.

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## G-Force

thanks swifto and vit...man

my testes never really went smaller on cycle - not that i noticed anyway
so i am guessing thats a good thing

so you are sayin run test 100 - 150mg per week JUST while i am taking the hcg ??
you didnt specify when to stop the test?

i can handle clomid sides no problem - i was planning on using both the nolva and clomid together? i have never heard of TORE? what is this?


i am obviously very worried about my sex drive
i have a very hot / lovely girlfriend and dont wana lose her
how about the addition of caber during pct?

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## sportfan33

well i hope ur relatinoship isnt based on just sex

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## Swifto

> thanks swifto and vit...man
> 
> my testes never really went smaller on cycle - not that i noticed anyway
> so i am guessing thats a good thing
> 
> so you are sayin run test 100 - 150mg per week JUST while i am taking the hcg ??
> you didnt specify when to stop the test?
> 
> i can handle clomid sides no problem - i was planning on using both the nolva and clomid together? i have never heard of TORE? what is this?
> ...


Caber isnt needed as I dont think your prolactin will be elevated, but if you want to use it for its effects on dopamine (orgasm's) go ahead. But the safer option is viagra or cialis.

Toremifene Citrate. Its a very good SERM at restarting the HPTA. I'll PM you...

Keep the Test going now, if your still on cycle at 100-150mg/wk, then use the HCG as I stated with an AI. Then begin PCT with a combination of SERMs. 5-6 weeks later, bloodwork.

Tribulas can be used to raise labido 1-2g/ED, but will do nada for androgen production.

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## OH REALLY

swifto swifto

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## Swifto

> swifto swifto


Yes...

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## G-Force

cheers swifto
i am going to do my last jab of test enanthate , eq and deca on monday
do 3 weeks of hcg 500 iu ED with arimidex .5mg EOD
will continue running test prop at 50mg EOD for 3 weeks - i want to add in some masteron - 100mg EOD at this phase because i want to do a 3 week low carb diet
so that i can cram the carbs in during pct and rebound

then start clomid / nolva after 3 weeks and run until my sex drive comes back
and maybe Tore if i can get hold of it

was thinking abouit tribulus but i have read studies that it can actually be suppressive to your HPTA in high doses.....

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## Swifto

> cheers swifto
> i am going to do my last jab of test enanthate , eq and deca on monday
> do 3 weeks of hcg 500 iu ED with arimidex .5mg EOD
> will continue running test prop at 50mg EOD for 3 weeks - i want to add in some masteron - 100mg EOD at this phase because i want to do a 3 week low carb diet
> so that i can cram the carbs in during pct and rebound
> 
> then start clomid / nolva after 3 weeks and run until my sex drive comes back
> and maybe Tore if i can get hold of it
> 
> was thinking abouit tribulus but i have read studies that it can actually be suppressive to your HPTA in high doses.....


Tribulas shows no androgenic effect in peer-reviewed published studies. Even the recent ones (most resent on women months ago) shows no increase in anything. No androgenic effect, means both raising/lowering androgen production, but it will raise labido. 

If you dont want to use that, use Tongkat Ali. In animal research in massive doses, it actually showed an elevation of LH and T. It probably a better option, but dont spend the extra on "standardized" extracts becuase there nothing but a rip off.

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## charlesriley

this thread is favorited

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## DS44

How Ironic is this post, i have to say thanks I need help also with my long cycle....2 years to be exact!


I have been doing 1cc 250mg test enthate every 6 days for 2 years and i'm currently still on, but looking to come off. i have not used any HCG during this cycle. for the last 8 weeks i have been using 200 mgs of deca along with the test every 6 days... Well I 'm ready to come off and swift to i need your advice....

i have arimidex on hand and would like to use that instead of novaldex for PCT... Swift if you could just help me out with the clomid and any other ideas to come off and get my natural test functioning it would be appreciate....


I have run many cycles in my life time but this low test dose long cycle adding one other AAS every 8 weeks or so has been awesome with quality gains..

currrent stats 40yrs, 265lbs 37 inch waist

thanks swifto for your help...

PS sorry for hijacking thread... : Hijack:  :Icon Rolleyes: 

thanks 
DS

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## Swifto

> How Ironic is this post, i have to say thanks I need help also with my long cycle....2 years to be exact!
> 
> 
> I have been doing 1cc 250mg test enthate every 6 days for 2 years and i'm currently still on, but looking to come off. i have not used any HCG during this cycle. for the last 8 weeks i have been using 200 mgs of deca along with the test every 6 days... Well I 'm ready to come off and swift to i need your advice....
> 
> i have arimidex on hand and would like to use that instead of novaldex for PCT... Swift if you could just help me out with the clomid and any other ideas to come off and get my natural test functioning it would be appreciate....
> 
> 
> I have run many cycles in my life time but this low test dose long cycle adding one other AAS every 8 weeks or so has been awesome with quality gains..
> ...


Get off the Deca and run a low dose of Test Enan 100-150mg/wk for 4-5 weeks, then conduct an HCG protocol. 

500ius for 21 days with an AI.

Then Clomid/Tamox the same as I suggested for GForce.

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## G-Force

> Tore 120/120/100/60/60/60
> Clomid 100/50/25/25/25/25 OR Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20
> 
> .



is that 120 tore for week one and 2, then 100 for week 3 etc
or is it day one, day two etc?

also is it not worth using nolva and clomid together with the tore in your opinion?

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## Vitruvian-Man

> is that 120 tore for week one and 2, then 100 for week 3 etc
> or is it day one, day two etc?
> 
> *^^ These are the daily and weekly values... (IE) week 1 & 2 = 120mg of tore each day.
> *
> also is it not worth using nolva and clomid together with the tore in your opinion?
> 
> *No need to add clomid/nolva/tore. That's too many SERMS. Clomid and tamox are interchangeable. I would stick with clomid though (if you can handle the emotional sides.)
> *


advice in bold bro.

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## G-Force

thanks
ive never noticed any emotional sides from clomid to be honest?

the arimidex ive got is from a pretty rubbish lab that tends to be underdosed
would i be able to run nolva along side it with the hcg in the 3 weeks before my pct starts
or i could run arimidex at 1mg eod rather than 0.5mg

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## G-Force

actually i just realised i will still have deca in my system for these three weeks so best not use the nolva eh

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## Vitruvian-Man

> actually i just realised i will still have deca in my system for these three weeks so best not use the nolva eh


I would stick to A-dex instead of nolva. 

This is because they accomplish two different tasks. A-dex will destroy ~85% of estrogen... whereas, nolva prevents estrogen from entering receptors in the breast tissue.

If you don't like the A.I. you've got now (arimidex ) then buy another bottle from a different lab.

IMO, there is NO point cheaping out, when you're trying to restore your HPTA (especially if your situation, where you abused AAS to the point where recovery may not be 100% possible...)

PM me if you have anymore issues.

-VM

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## G-Force

> If you don't like the A.I. you've got now (arimidex ) then buy another bottle from a different lab.
> 
> IMO, there is NO point cheaping out, 
> -VM


nothing to do with money
this is just the only arimidex i can get hold of
am lookin out for some pro chem stuff though
hopefully my mate will come through

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## Swifto

You need to be using an AI with HCG IMHO. Aromaisn 10mg/EOD.

Then Tore as I suggested and as VM correctly confirmed, with Clomid IMHO. Clomid is the KING of SERMs for HPTA recovery.

Keep me posted on what happens here please.

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## spencer c

am very interested in this thread.. some great shit.. g-force please keep us updated on ur recovery in all aspects... maintaining, energy levels, libido, depression etc etc...

I am coming off close to a year long test cruise on and off soon (well when i get the funds to afford all the necessary products and such for recovery and PCT) no other compounds thank god and would liek to see how i could apply this to myself and what i can expect in the near future

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## martialartsman

very interesting read and to think im confused on my 12 week cycle. Good luck with it all G Force.

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## meathead320

Giving a bump here too. I'm one of the guys who "did somethin" for a TRT scrpit when I probably did not need it. Been on prefectly legal for 2 years at 200mg EW test-C. Man it was some good times however. Nothing like top of the range test all the time.

Anyhow, I'm kinda getting out of it now. Lots of other hobbies, wife and kid, house, mortgage and decent paying job. Zero social accolades for being thick, and my wife met me when I was about 40 pounds smaller, and she could care less for the extra size. 

So here is my situation:

Age: 28

Weight: 215 about 15% bodyfat
Height: 5'8" (on a good day)

Anyway, I have come off once for 30 days a year ago, and ran clomid until I was able to store some sperm at a Cyrolab. Got 9 vails in case I am perma messed up. 

I also ran a course of HCG that ended about 60 days ago of 500 iu every 3 days as I was thinking abotu comming off then. My source dried up for the HCG again, but I don't think I will need it again this soon. My testes are still decent sized from the last course.

I was thinking about comming off then, but pussed out.

I have Clomid, Letro, and Nolva on hand, and I think I will take another crack at it.

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## meathead320

^^^^ small fallow up on the above. I will be trying to score some decent HCG soon, and run that for 30-60 days at 500 iu. 2x EW. 

In the meantime, since I got plenty of test-C on hand still, I should really cut some fat before I come off. 

Losing fat is far easier on then off, and I have allowed myself to get too fat. I think PCT will be more effective to at under 10% bodyfat, vs. 15%. 

So Diet time first. I go from one torture to another. Me =  :Chairshot:

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## G-Force

well i have finished my 3 week run of hcg while decreasing my test dose down to nil
i have now been on PCT for 9 days

doin ok - the lack of sex drive is really starting to kick in now

i am using clomid / tore as suggested above as well as tribulus and horny goat weed and ZMA

ive lost 3kg ish
but i havent trained in 6 weeks and i dunno how long i will be out for (back injury)
so i expect i will be shrinking down to 'normal' size soon

arms already gone from 19" to 18 1/2

just wish i could train 
would make this pct a lot easier

right i am off to get some cialis :-)


PS good luck meathead let us know how u get on

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## G-Force

ok i have finished my 6 week pct 2 weeks ago 
and just got my testosterone levels back and it is at 2.3

i was told by the endocrinologist that i should be over 9

i will be arranging an appointment with him next week

is 2.3 normal after a 6 week pct or am i not recovering properly?

is there anything i can be doin eg get back on the tore / nolva
or should i wait to see what the endocrinologist says?

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## tboney

> ok i have finished my 6 week pct 2 weeks ago 
> and just got my testosterone levels back and it is at 2.3
> 
> i was told by the endocrinologist that i should be over 9
> 
> i will be arranging an appointment with him next week
> 
> is 2.3 normal after a 6 week pct or am i not recovering properly?
> 
> ...


After a two year cycle It doesnt surprise me that you are not fully recovered. Sometimes it takes a while. Does your endo know about your aas usage?

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## Swifto

> ok i have finished my 6 week pct 2 weeks ago 
> and just got my testosterone levels back and it is at 2.3
> 
> i was told by the endocrinologist that i should be over 9
> 
> i will be arranging an appointment with him next week
> 
> is 2.3 normal after a 6 week pct or am i not recovering properly?
> 
> ...


If your total T is "2.3" nmol/l, thats low. It should be 10-20 (normal range). Over 20 is very good. 

See what your Endo says...

If Tore and Tamox dont work, I'm not sure what will. I'd try Tore and Tamox for 8-10 weeks. Tore 120mg/ED for the first 3 weeks, followed by 100mg/ED for 3 weeks, followed by 60mg/ED for 4 weeks. Tamox 20mg/ED for 8-10 weeks. Thats your final hope IMHO. Tore and Tamox will both upregulate the pituitary to GnRH causing a greater LH pulse. If Tore/Tamox dont do it, your on HRT pal!

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## G-Force

> After a two year cycle It doesnt surprise me that you are not fully recovered. Sometimes it takes a while. Does your endo know about your aas usage?


he does yeah i told him everything

i dont really wana do another PCT
think i will stick to tribulus and zma and just try and recover

i expect thats all he will say when i see him anyway
just be patient

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## Swifto

Get your GnRH, LH and FSH tested too.

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## G-Force

> If your total T is "2.3" nmol/l, thats low. It should be 10-20 (normal range). Over 20 is very good. 
> 
> See what your Endo says...
> 
> If Tore and Tamox dont work, I'm not sure what will. I'd try Tore and Tamox for 8-10 weeks. Tore 120mg/ED for the first 3 weeks, followed by 100mg/ED for 3 weeks, followed by 60mg/ED for 4 weeks. Tamox 20mg/ED for 8-10 weeks. Thats your final hope IMHO. Tore and Tamox will both upregulate the pituitary to GnRH causing a greater LH pulse. If Tore/Tamox dont do it, your on HRT pal!


ok i am back on the tore and nolva as of today
what about running some more HCG with it?

i got some advice from another board - here it is below:

_"You do in fact need to run another PCT along with HCG.
I would at the very least run 10,000iu HCG, and something around 1500 to 1000iu.
Beings that you have some testicular function you wont need the super aggressive doses.
You may consider the first two shots EOD ! 1500, then 1000.
Something like this:
1500 X 2 EOD, then 1000 X 7 EOD, that will use all the 10,000iu HCG
Then back on the clomid for 30 days @ 100mg, then 20mg nolva for 45 days."_

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## G-Force

also my kidneys are not fully functional
i have a GFR of 50 (should be over 60 at least apparently)

would any of these pct meds affect my kidneys?

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## Vitruvian-Man

> ok i am back on the tore and nolva as of today
> what about running some more HCG with it?
> 
> i got some advice from another board - here it is below:
> 
> _"You do in fact need to run another PCT along with HCG.
> I would at the very least run 10,000iu HCG, and something around 1500 to 1000iu.
> Beings that you have some testicular function you wont need the super aggressive doses.
> You may consider the first two shots EOD ! 1500, then 1000.
> ...


I would do another PCT... but I would definitely not do one as suggested by that board. I would never advise shooting 1500iu of HCG in one day. that can cause desensitization.. 

If you want to run HCG again then you could run it for the first 2 - 3 weeks of the PCT. and use an A.I. along side it. 

IMO you should really just do another long nolva/tore PCT. (around 8 weeks). I'm not really surprised that you haven't recovered, it can take multiple PCT's to recover from the length of time you stayed on. 

Regarding kidney function... well that could have resulted in damage caused by the length that you stayed on AAS. Kidney function always sky-rockets on cycle (because your body is taking in so much more protein; which means a lot more has to be filtered....)

Good luck, and keep us updated.

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## G-Force

> I would do another PCT... but I would definitely not do one as suggested by that board. I would never advise shooting 1500iu of HCG in one day. that can cause desensitization.. 
> 
> If you want to run HCG again then you could run it for the first 2 - 3 weeks of the PCT. and use an A.I. along side it. 
> 
> IMO you should really just do another long nolva/tore PCT. (around 8 weeks). I'm not really surprised that you haven't recovered, it can take multiple PCT's to recover from the length of time you stayed on. 
> 
> Regarding kidney function... well that could have resulted in damage caused by the length that you stayed on AAS. Kidney function always sky-rockets on cycle (because your body is taking in so much more protein; which means a lot more has to be filtered....)
> 
> Good luck, and keep us updated.



actually my kidneys were fine on cycle - i got blood tests regularly and never had any issues except for high blood pressure

it was when i came off gear, quit training and hit the bottle that my kidneys started complaining

i lost 14 kg in 2 and a half months
thats a lot of muscle waste flowing thru the kidneys
the drinking didnt help either

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## Swifto

It would be important to see your GnRH, LH and FSH levels. Then we can design a PCT around primary or secondary hypogonadism. 

Either way its going to be lengthy. Stay with the Tore/Tamox for 8-10 weeks IMHO. Add in some VitC, tribulas for labido if need be.

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## KAEW44

G-Force the old-school protocol for PCT among bodybuilders in gyms (not very informed ones) was to hit huge HCG doses like 2000iu or even 1500iu in one shot and sometimes up to 5000iu in one shot! from my experience in knowing these guys they usually do it after short cycles no longer than 10 weeks so i am guessing that their body recovered naturally not from the HCG and that they thought it was the HCG magic so they kept using the same PCT over and over again.
As Swifto said a high dose of HCG will desensitize your testicles to LH so the safe way would be to go with smaller daily or EOD doses of 500iu, however if you want to use a high HCG dosage there are pro bodybuilders who recommend taking high nolvadex (40-60mg a day) on the days you inject as some experimentation has shown that higher nolva does prevent the desensitizing and also use vitamin-E because it will boost your natural production.

The kidney issue could be very related to the high blood pressure because keep in mind that the leading cause of kidney failure is high blood pressure! dont freak out your kidney could just be under some pressure now and drink lots of water to flush it out, but be careful in the future high blood pressure is a silent killer!

I strongly hope you can recover because low or no natural test will mean loss of gains!

Also research in this forum about some experimentation indicating that actually very high dosages of test (1gram+ a week) has in some people kicked back production of the natural testes functions, it sounds contradicting but i read something about it a while ago that it can do that as a last resort.

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## G-Force

> G-Force the old-school protocol for PCT among bodybuilders in gyms (not very informed ones) was to hit huge HCG doses like 2000iu or even 1500iu in one shot and sometimes up to 5000iu in one shot! from my experience in knowing these guys they usually do it after short cycles no longer than 10 weeks so i am guessing that their body recovered naturally not from the HCG and that they thought it was the HCG magic so they kept using the same PCT over and over again.
> As Swifto said a high dose of HCG will desensitize your testicles to LH so the safe way would be to go with smaller daily or EOD doses of 500iu, however if you want to use a high HCG dosage there are pro bodybuilders who recommend taking high nolvadex (40-60mg a day) on the days you inject as some experimentation has shown that higher nolva does prevent the desensitizing and also use vitamin-E because it will boost your natural production.
> 
> The kidney issue could be very related to the high blood pressure because keep in mind that the leading cause of kidney failure is high blood pressure! dont freak out your kidney could just be under some pressure now and drink lots of water to flush it out, but be careful in the future high blood pressure is a silent killer!
> 
> I strongly hope you can recover because low or no natural test will mean loss of gains!
> 
> Also research in this forum about some experimentation indicating that actually very high dosages of test (1gram+ a week) has in some people kicked back production of the natural testes functions, it sounds contradicting but i read something about it a while ago that it can do that as a last resort.


1g of test for pct? lol yeah your right that does sound contradictory

i think i will stick to 500iu hcg, 20mg nolva a day for 30 days
then tore / nolva for another 30 days or longer

unless i can take the tore with the hcg? is this possible?

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## G-Force

UPDATE

its been a month since my test results came back as 2.3
i just got them tested again and they are at 19.9

this is the high end of normal i believe
i am shocked
i dont feel any different and my sex drive is still non exsistent

i have done 30 days hcg 500iu's and 20mg nolva for the past month
and had the test whil on about day 25 could this have given a false reading perhaps?

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## stevey_6t9

get more tests done in a couple of weeks

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## Vitruvian-Man

> UPDATE
> 
> its been a month since my test results came back as 2.3
> i just got them tested again and they are at 19.9
> 
> this is the high end of normal i believe
> i am shocked
> i dont feel any different and my sex drive is still non exsistent
> 
> ...


Absolutely..

Levels are elevated during PCT due to the SERMS taking there course.

Getting blood-work ~1 - 1.5 months post the discontinuation of PCT... will give a much more accurate reading on what testosterone (if any) your body is actually producing on its own. 

-VM

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## G-Force

> If Tore/Tamox dont do it, your on HRT pal!


i am so closs to just goin on self prescribed HRT my sex drive is so pathetic
my only worry is not being able to have kids

i have heard people men can have kids on HRT if they use HCG 
is there any truth in this?

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## Vitruvian-Man

> i am so closs to just goin on self prescribed HRT my sex drive is so pathetic
> my only worry is not being able to have kids
> 
> i have heard people men can have kids on HRT if they use HCG 
> is there any truth in this?


That's unfortunate bro. It's probably for the best though. Living with low test levels for months is not worth it. Talk to your doc / endo about getting on TRT. 

Tons of people have children who are on TRT for very prolonged periods of time. It's obviously quite a bit harder because sperm count is so reduced; however, w/ the aid of HCG therapy and clomid tons of patients have successfully conceived.

-VM

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## robofish

> well i hope ur relatinoship isnt based on just sex


 :Haha:

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## Swifto

> i am so closs to just goin on self prescribed HRT my sex drive is so pathetic
> my only worry is not being able to have kids
> 
> i have heard people men can have kids on HRT if they use HCG 
> is there any truth in this?


Yes.

HRT doesnt mean you cant have kids. HCG and HMG are both used for fertility and cosmetic (testicular atrohpy) purposes.

Your in the UK, speak with Marcus300 about Nebido (long acting HRT).

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## Swifto

> UPDATE
> 
> its been a month since my test results came back as 2.3
> i just got them tested again and they are at 19.9
> 
> this is the high end of normal i believe
> i am shocked
> i dont feel any different and my sex drive is still non exsistent
> 
> ...


Yes, but it shows a response, which is a very good sign.

You need to get bloodwork done again, 5-6 weeks post PCT. Dont only get testosterone , get LH, FSH, DHEA, estrogen and prolactin. Also thyroid tests, T3/4.

----------


## G-Force

cheers for the replies lads

i am prepared to wait it out abit
and get my bloods done 6 weeks after PCT (FSH and LH etc)

i will post back with the results
wont be for a couple of months though

----------


## GOONBAH

> ok ive been cycling for 2 years solid
> 
> usually 12 - 16 weeks on and 10 - 14 weeks cruise on 250 - 375mg test per week
> 
> it seems like ive been only doin this for about a year but i guess if i am honest its more like 2 years
> 
> i need to get off cycle as my stomach is very bad - *acid reflux and hiatus hernia - i just cant get the calories in anymore*also i have had acompressed lower disc for a while now and need to fix both these things before i start lifintg heavy again
> 
> so normally when i used to do pct i would use nolva and clomid for 6 weeks post cycle -sometimes with hcg the last 4 weeks of my cycle
> ...


im intersted in the acid reflux, is this due to steroid use /abuse or a a result of the hernia?

----------


## AlphaGenetics

I just realized that swifto's the man!

----------


## Swifto

> I just realized that swifto's the man!


I could have told you that a long time ago buddy.  :7up:

----------


## D_iamond

swifto is 100% gangsta! hahah it is sweet that when a brotha is in need everybody joins in to help him not have to live a life of regret yalls boards are the sickest on the web period. and it is also great to see all these long time users who arent phsyco like the media says will happen to you if you even think about being stronger!!

----------


## D_iamond

"under construction" i think that was a missy elliot cd hahaha youre not a big black woman are you?

----------


## G-Force

> im intersted in the acid reflux, is this due to steroid use/abuse or a a result of the hernia?


the doctors dont know what it is from
but i have been off steroids for over 5 months now and i still have it
albeit not as bad 

and yes thanks again swifto and others

i am gettin tested again in a few weeks so will post the results

----------


## tboney

> the doctors dont know what it is from
> but i have been off steroids for over 5 months now and i still have it
> albeit not as bad 
> 
> and yes thanks again swifto and others
> 
> i am gettin tested again in a few weeks so will post the results


Hey bro, if you are and have been on hcg then your estro could be the culprit in the sex drive issue. Were you not on an AI?

----------


## trix8

prolactin from the deca can linger and kill ur sex drive, and so u recovered ur natty test form that cycle???

----------


## spncr

> It would be important to see your GnRH, LH and FSH levels. Then we can design a PCT around primary or secondary hypogonadism. 
> 
> Either way its going to be lengthy. Stay with the Tore/Tamox for 8-10 weeks IMHO. Add in some VitC, tribulas for labido if need be.


whrere do u get these levels tested? doctors?

----------


## Swifto

> whrere do u get these levels tested? doctors?


Yes.

It depends where you live in the world.

I'm lucky to be in the UK and have found a doctor (after going through 4) that will test whatever I wish to keep tabs on my health (they know I use AAS). 

But if your not, you may have to go privately. Another alternative is to get BW done at a needle exchange, although I havent found one that did. I think they only test the basics of lipids/live values.

----------


## spncr

> Yes.
> 
> It depends where you live in the world.
> 
> I'm lucky to be in the UK and have found a doctor (after going through 4) that will test whatever I wish to keep tabs on my health (they know I use AAS). 
> 
> But if your not, you may have to go privately. Another alternative is to get BW done at a needle exchange, although I havent found one that did. I think they only test the basics of lipids/live values.


cheers mate. yeh im in uk too. my mrs is tellin me to get to the doctors if i carry on goin bed only to sleep haha.

i just ran 12 weeks tri tren and test400 n i just havent had a sex drive atall 3weeks or so after. i started takin the clomid but not really done out yet, and i got some hcg yesterday i started

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

> cheers mate. yeh im in uk too. my mrs is tellin me to get to the doctors if i carry on goin bed only to sleep haha.
> 
> i just ran 12 weeks tri tren and test400 n i just havent had a sex drive atall 3weeks or so after. i started takin the clomid but not really done out yet, and i got some hcg yesterday i started


You've been taking clomid for the past couple of weeks, and now you're planning on incorporating HCG at the end????.... HCG - which is still slightly suppressive to the HPTA...

I would reconsider that idea bro.

That's like saying you are going to do a PCT, and then once you've completed the SERMS you plan on taking proviron for 2 more weeks to aid with sex drive. noooot the greatest plan....

Just a thought..

-VM

----------


## spncr

tell u the truth mate i dont know jack about pct thats why i joined this website. i got a few mates who told me to get the hcg and it would sort me out. i been takin the clomid for 2weeks now

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

Just want to reiterate.... adding ANY compound that is suppressive, even in the slightest, to your PCT is counter-productive to the goal of a PCT/restoring your body's homeostasis. 

The only exception would be using HCG at the beginning of a PCT, and following up with SERM usage.

Get yourself some cialis/viagra to help with erections. That + clomid/nolva is all you should need to recover from a simple 12 week cycle.......

-VM

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

> tell u the truth mate i dont know jack about pct thats why i joined this website. i got a few mates who told me to get the hcg and it would sort me out. i been takin the clomid for 2weeks now


It's good you're here then bro, that's what this site is for. 

If you've been on clomid for the past 2 weeks, then I would just continue with the clomid for another 2 - 3 weeks. If you can get nolvadex (tamoxifen ) quickly, then you should also add that to the mix. (IE)

Clomid: 50mg each day for the next 2 - 3 weeks + nolvadex @ 20 - 40mg each day for the same span.

Save the HCG for your next cycle. You don't need it now. 

Get some cialis/viagra as I previously suggested, that will help with the ED for now.

BTW bro this is the protocol for a normal PCT (as reference for ur next cycle):

nolva: 40/40/20/20
clomid: 100/75/50/25

^^ those are daily/weekly values. (IE) 40mg nolva + 100mg clomid each day for the first week, etc..

Hope that helps  :Smilie: , 

-VM

----------


## spncr

im cool with erections, its just being in the mood if u know wat i mean.
so i should be takkin the hcg first then clomid?

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

^^ refer to my last 2 posts for the answer to that question...

-VM

----------


## spncr

> It's good you're here then bro, that's what this site is for. 
> 
> If you've been on clomid for the past 2 weeks, then I would just continue with the clomid for another 2 - 3 weeks. If you can get nolvadex (tamoxifen ) quickly, then you should also add that to the mix. (IE)
> 
> Clomid: 50mg each day for the next 2 - 3 weeks + nolvadex @ 20 - 40mg each day for the same span.
> 
> Save the HCG for your next cycle. You don't need it now. 
> 
> Get some cialis/viagra as I previously suggested, that will help with the ED for now.
> ...


thanks for that mate. yeh ive been takin tamoxifen aswell. 
but i thought that was just for stopping bitch tits.

i need to read up a lot haha

----------


## spncr

im not plannin on running another cycle thats all mate. im currently awaiting a court date to go to trial so if that goes tits up i dont wanna be messed up in jail haha

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

> thanks for that mate. yeh ive been takin tamoxifen aswell. 
> but i thought that was just for stopping bitch tits.
> 
> *i need to read up a lot haha*


^^ Glad to hear a newb admitting this. And that's good of you to accept that! 

tamox/clomid work together. They are both SERMS; nolvadex blocks breast receptor tissue... so you are sort of right... but not all the way there.

Read up on their profiles (at steroid .com) and you will have a much better understanding!  :1welcome: 

peace bro, and best of luck,

-VM

----------


## spncr

> ^^ Glad to hear a newb admitting this. And that's good of you to accept that! 
> 
> tamox/clomid work together. They are both SERMS; nolvadex blocks breast receptor tissue... so you are sort of right... but not all the way there.
> 
> Read up on their profiles (at steroid .com) and you will have a much better understanding! 
> 
> peace bro, and best of luck,
> 
> -VM


cheers mate ur a star

----------


## G-Force

> *im cool with erections, its just being in the mood if u know wat i mean.*
> so i should be takkin the hcg first then clomid?



try recovering from a 2 year cycle and see if your in the mood lol
JOKE  :2jk: 

i havent even watched p0rn in over 5 months (ive given it all to the girlfriend lol)
thats when i know something is wrong

----------


## spncr

> try recovering from a 2 year cycle and see if your in the mood lol
> JOKE 
> 
> i havent even watched p0rn in over 5 months (ive given it all to the girlfriend lol)
> thats when i know something is wrong


im in the same boat mate. i been on and off cycles without pct for around 2years too. everytime i felt like this i just got back on some test ha

----------


## G-Force

for those that are interested here are some before and after pics
the one on the right was december last year at the height of my steroid use 

and the one on the left was taken a week ago (may 2010) after being off cycle for 6 months and not training for 2 of those months

quite a big difference hey

Ps excuse the pink calvins and towel lol it was for a modelling shoot

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

Good to see you still kicking around G-Force. Hopefully the recovery is progressing smoothly.

It's pretty shocking per-say to see the before and after pics... but this is what happens when you go off AAS... all gains diminish eventually.. (something so many people just can't comprehend.) 

You'll always revert back to your natural limit after time. (the amount of time is an individual thing.. but that's the only difference..)

You've still got a great base to work with though bro, don't get me wrong, not trying to put you down whatsoever.. if you put in the time, and do a natural cut, you should be able to get those abs back, and some nice definition going.

Best of luck, and thanks for the continued updates  :Smilie: 

-VM

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## j4ever41

yeah bro you lost some there but out of curosity over the last 6 months how has your diet been compared to when you were on?you might not be as far off the mark as you think if everything was constant except for aas,just a thought bro.How is your recovery going?How do you feel mentally and emotionally?

----------


## G-Force

> Good to see you still kicking around G-Force. Hopefully the recovery is progressing smoothly.
> 
> It's pretty shocking per-say to see the before and after pics... but this is what happens when you go off AAS... all gains diminish eventually.. (something so many people just can't comprehend.) 
> 
> You'll always revert back to your natural limit after time. (the amount of time is an individual thing.. but that's the only difference..)
> 
> You've still got a great base to work with though bro, don't get me wrong, not trying to put you down whatsoever.. if you put in the time, and do a natural cut, you should be able to get those abs back, and some nice definition going.
> 
> Best of luck, and thanks for the continued updates 
> ...


thanks
yeah thats what i am doing now 
a natural cut
its going erm slowly

i dont care how much i am on the scale anymore i just want my abs back

----------


## G-Force

> yeah bro you lost some there but out of curosity over the last 6 months how has your diet been compared to when you were on?you might not be as far off the mark as you think if everything was constant except for aas,just a thought bro.How is your recovery going?How do you feel mentally and emotionally?


well to be honest my diet went to sh!t when i had the 2 months of no training at all

and i myself also went to sh!t and was drinking practically every day amongst other things

it was like i swapped one addiction for another
if u take the gym away from me i turn into the junkie alcoholic i wass when i was a teenager - it wass gettin into the gym that saved me from all of that

i need the gym to keep me sane

thankfully when i got back in the gym my diet has been good and have been off the recreational drugs although i still have the occasional relapse
same with the booze

when i was on AAS i was so dedicated and didnt drink or do drugs

just wish i could be the same now i am off the AAS

so yeah to answer your question - emotionally it is hard and i think about getting back on the AAS every day but i know there is no point with my back screwed like this

sex drive is still very poor and the gf isnt happy
getting my test levels tested on 14th june so will post the results

----------


## j4ever41

Hey man hang in there! I just say without going into detail that training and the lifestyle it invovles keeps me grounded as well,yeah bro keep us updated and again best of luck to you brotha.

----------


## louiscypher

> for those that are interested here are some before and after pics
> the one on the right was december last year at the height of my steroid use 
> 
> and the one on the left was taken a week ago (may 2010) after being off cycle for 6 months and not training for 2 of those months
> 
> quite a big difference hey
> 
> Ps excuse the pink calvins and towel lol it was for a modelling shoot


U still have a lot of muscle there bro. Pretty f'n good for being natural.

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## G-Force

> U still have a lot of muscle there bro. Pretty f'n good for being natural.


cheers mate
my arms are still 18 inches (believe it or not)
although i feel tiny

i remember when i first got my arms up to 18 and i thought i was massive ha ha

no longer the case sadly

----------


## G-Force

> Hey man hang in there! I just say without going into detail that training and the lifestyle it invovles keeps me grounded as well,yeah bro keep us updated and again best of luck to you brotha.


cheers man
much appreciated

----------


## lifta_00

Best of luck man, hoping for the best. Think there will be a lot of people out there in the same situation as you, keep us updated.

----------


## duder

Wow. Reading this thread has been a great help to me. This is the best one I've found on the specific topic of PCT after a very long cycle. My situation is similar, though my use is approaching one year...Some stats....I'm not huge, I doubt my physique is one that is beyond what would be "naturally" obtainable given my genetics and what-not, but it has definitely benefited from this period...I'm 5'6" and weigh 160 lbs...I'm also an insulin dependant diabetic-(that xtra bit of metabolic manipulation ability helps me in many ways and poses issues too...but anyway...) now my doses by many folks standards may seem low, but I was taking (this is an average over the whole year rather than an exact measure of each weeks dosage, a few times the stuff was lower milligrams per ML blah blah....) about 200 mgs of enanthate or sustanon weekly and just about nothing else...a few times I used some arimadex...I never noticed any typical estrogen effects except maybe the slightest bit of water retention at times....now I never really intended to do it for so long but it felt good, I was in good shape and looked good and felt younger and my sex life improved and all that so...and I liked it so I just kind of extended it...I know, I know...and I can't say for sure about testicular atropohy...perhaps but slight enough it could even be psychological, though my nut sack does do the cold water thing a lot more even when it's not in cold water. But on to my actual question...it seems that the original poster's PCT was inadequate but that he made some mistakes that could have been avoided. Like not enough HCG for long enough prior to the end of his cycle, and then maybe an inadequate regimen of clomid, nolvadex , aromasin and/ or whatever...he seemed to intermittantly start and stop some treatments. And maybe for too short a time? So I'm wondering if a PCT regimen of a longer duration would yield a better result, and how long could one last? and what dosages of what drugs are optimal for a longer PCT if such a thing is an option... I'm not on any time frame and I have juice enough left to follow any HCG regimen timed with it's duration of effects...Just looking for an "aggressive" PCT regimen and wondering what are the dangers of "overdoing it" timewise and dosage wise, etc...?

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## Cousinbutch

I'm wondering, when you say your sex drive is low; is it that you're just not interested or you can't get it up when you try?

----------


## G-Force

ok the results are in ( 7+ months after cycle) (7 weeks after pct finished) and everything is normal apparently

*Serum Testosterone level 9.2 nmol/L
serum LH level 3iu/L
serum FSH level 3 iu/L
serum TSH level 4.04 mu/L

serum prolactin level 284 mu/L
serum oestradiol level 100 pmol/L*

my doctor says all these results are in the normal range :-)

ok so why is my sex drive still low?

in answer to Cousinbutch's question - i can get it up i just am not interested
i am never horny

i am on antidepressents, and i know these decrease sex drive but i have been on the same anti depressents for 9 years

way before i ever started takin steroids 
and i didnt have a problem with low sex drive before

and i am currently on a fraction of the dose i was 9 years ago

i feel i may have to get back on cycle....

----------


## OH REALLY

give it some time your used to that superman sex drive...lol.. it will come back

----------


## stevey_6t9

9.2 nmol test is still very low mate

----------


## G-Force

> 9.2 nmol test is still very low mate


is it?
i was told it was in the normal range
low end of normal yes
but still "normal"

----------


## stevey_6t9

(8.3-29) is the range, someone your age should be higher. i personally dont think you recovered, its most likely causing your low libido also.

----------


## Xtralarg

Im sorry to hear that youre struggling to recover.

----------


## yarakefendi

Go to bed Steven!

----------


## stevey_6t9

> Go to bed Steven!


lol i have insomnia  :Tear:

----------


## Mr.Rose

> lol i have insomnia


its only 1:15am

Meh wont be in bed till 4:00am, gotta whore it out.

----------


## stevey_6t9

^^ u gota do what a whores gota do. im off to bed gudnight slutface stipe.

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

> ok the results are in ( 7+ months after cycle) (7 weeks after pct finished) and everything is normal apparently
> 
> *Serum Testosterone level 9.2 nmol/L
> serum LH level 3iu/L
> serum FSH level 3 iu/L
> serum TSH level 4.04 mu/L
> 
> serum prolactin level 284 mu/L
> serum oestradiol level 100 pmol/L*
> ...


PM, me man, I'm going to go through the thread right now, just to re-cap all that has occurred. I have been following this since day 1, and I would really like to help you recover. I truly think we can elevate that numbers. 

Do not do a cycle right now. I implore you. 7 months is a huge sacrifice, and I realize that; however, consider that you put 2+ years of steroids into your body with no break.... the recovery can take a year or more. 

I realize starting optimistic is hard. But this is your last chance to truly see if TRT is your only option. 

In any case, I think we should get you started on another PCT, and get those numbers elevated. Perhaps incorporate some HMG... 

Talk to you soon. 

-VM

----------


## louiscypher

> PM, me man, I'm going to go through the thread right now, just to re-cap all that has occurred. I have been following this since day 1, and I would really like to help you recover. I truly think we can elevate that numbers. 
> 
> Do not do a cycle right now. I implore you. 7 months is a huge sacrifice, and I realize that; however, consider that you put 2+ years of steroids into your body with no break.... the recovery can take a year or more. 
> 
> I realize starting optimistic is hard. But this is your last chance to truly see if TRT is your only option. 
> 
> In any case, I think we should get you started on another PCT, and get those numbers elevated. Perhaps incorporate some HMG... 
> 
> Talk to you soon. 
> ...


I totally agree with VM. I to have been following this thread and truly hope you get your natty levels back bro. Have you considered another HCG cycle?

----------


## j4ever41

yeah bro dont jump back on cycle yet! give it some more time,dont waste the past 7 months that you have invested,gluck to you bro keep us posted.

----------


## CMB

Yes, I thought I was the only one here who supported doing more than one pct. 

I would do another. 

You might want to talk to swifto about this. 

AND

I would run clomid for months straight, it has been shown to increase serum testosterone levels by 146% with only 25mgs of clomid. Check out swifto's sticky.

----------


## Vitruvian-Man

> Yes, I thought I was the only one here who supported doing more than one pct. 
> 
> I would do another. 
> 
> *You might want to talk to swifto about this.* 
> 
> AND
> 
> I would run clomid for months straight, it has been shown to increase serum testosterone levels by 146% with only 25mgs of clomid. *Check out swifto's sticky.*


^^

You should read the entire thread bro..
-VM

----------


## wouldrichest

> You need to be using an AI with HCG IMHO. Aromaisn 10mg/EOD.
> 
> Then Tore as I suggested and as VM correctly confirmed, with Clomid IMHO. Clomid is the KING of SERMs for HPTA recovery.
> 
> Keep me posted on what happens here please.


am very interested in this thread.. some great shit.. g-force please keep us updated on ur recovery in all aspects... maintaining, energy levels, libido, depression etc etc...

I am coming off close to a year long test cruise on and off soon (well when i get the funds to afford all the necessary products and such for recovery and PCT) no other compounds thank god and would liek to see how i could apply this to myself and what i can expect in the near future


__________________

----------


## Noles12

> am very interested in this thread.. some great shit.. g-force please keep us updated on ur recovery in all aspects... maintaining, energy levels, libido, depression etc etc...
> 
> I am coming off close to a year long test cruise on and off soon (well when i get the funds to afford all the necessary products and such for recovery and PCT) no other compounds thank god and would liek to see how i could apply this to myself and what i can expect in the near future
> 
> 
> __________________
> watch free movies online


how about you edit out your little scam link

----------


## cimcimma1

This thread is interesting. I'll be tuning in frequently.

----------


## 2009MrTeenTN

i ran a 6 months straight cycle didnt post cycle until 4 to 5 months later, i followed vitruvian man's advice Clomid 150mg first 7 days then 100mg for 7 then 75mg for 7 and im about to go down to the 50mg for 7 days, i ran nolva 40/40/20/20 my labido is coming back sex drive still low had some testicular atrophy cliomid seems to be bringing the size back, i honestly think i had some penile atrophy as well, i was wondering should i stay on the regimant im on or should i do 500iu HCG for 21 days along with clomid and nolva? i also have arimadex, please help just turned 20 and want my life back to normal

----------


## j4ever41

bump for update.

----------


## SteveCrammer

Any update on this thread. I have been on almost 2 years and am thinking of the following agressive PCT, your expert input welcome please:

Week 1-26 HGH 20iu PW and Liver Protectants
Week 1 -4 Test P (3 x 50mg) 150mg PW, HMG and HCG 500IU ED, Aromasin 10MG ED
Week 5 -8 IFG1 60mg EOD
Week 5-10 PCT - Toremifene (Fareston) + Tribulus Terestris
Week 9-14 Insulin 10iu EOD
Week 10 - 14 Aromasin 10mg ED?
Week 5-14 Creatine Monhohydrate
Week 16 Bloods

----------


## sa22c

hey swifto i know this is an old post but i need to get in contact with you, to ask you some advice. i'm 22 my names Nathan and i'm from Sydney Australia, i have just joined this website after reading your posts about this topic.

----------


## sa22c

Hello Vitruvian Man. i found this thread today and joined the site today also. march 13 2012. i am 22 years old nearly 23 and took imo a fair bit of gear when i was 18-19 i tried taking zma it worked for a while back in late 2010 early 2011 along with other testosterone supplements. I have never done a pct. Stupid me. So i was wondering if i could ask you for some advice on what you think would be best for me to try and gain my normality back. If you could reply or pm me or something it would be greatly appreciated! cheers Nathan

----------


## Flier

VT won´t be doing anything as he has been banned ....

Start a new thread here in the PCT section.
Post your stats, cycle history and your bloodwork.

Great thread btw.

----------


## Flier

I´m curious now...hehe
What happened to G-Force, anybody know?
Recovered and happy, or HRT?

----------


## EpyoN

in for update as well

----------


## Flier

COME ON!......
The PCT section is dead bc everyone talking about pvssy in the lounge...  :Smilie: 
I wanna know what happened to the G. Man!

----------


## RustedIron

> is it?
> i was told it was in the normal range
> low end of normal yes
> but still "normal"


Sounds like it's normal as in "normal healthy human being" but you may not be where you were before. Do you happen to know what levels you were before you ever cycled?

----------

