# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > DIET AND NUTRITION >  what macronutrient ratio works for you when building lean muscle mass?

## billyyb

Just trying to create a new diet. Not sure what percentage of my total calorie intake protein, carbs and fats should take up. JW what you guys think is best and works for you? 
I plan on having pro/carb meal for breakfast, then pro/carb for my third meal and pro/carb for my PWO meal. The rest will most likely be pro/fat meals.

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## scotty51312

40/40/20 seems to work well for me, but i've also cut weight on the same split, just less calories. Timing plays a big role in it as well

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## billyyb

40/40/20 sounds good, cheers... and yes i have planned the timing of carbs. Complex Carbs for breakfast and the meal before my workout contains complex carbs aswelll (sometimes 30 mins before i have a banana or something for some simple carbs) and the post work out meal contains simple carbs.

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## Gucks

post ur full diet for us 2 critique if u like, 40/40/20 is the most common for bulking, some people go 45/40/15 if they have alot of calories and dont want to go over 90g of fat.

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## Sgt. Hartman

45 - 40 -15 but everyone is different.

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## gbrice75

I'm going to disagree with all of the above. For bulking, I like to start with:

protein - 1.5g protein/lb of bodyweight (I go with TOTAL bodyweight when working up a bulk diet)
carbs - 1.75g carbs/lb of bodyweight
fat - .33g fat/lb of bodyweight

Let's take the example of a 200lb man. His macros would be:

300g protein - 1200 calories
350g carbs - 1400 calories
65g fat - 585 calories

3185 calories. Not a huge amount of calories, but i'm also not an 'all out bulk' guy. However, we have to take it a step further.

Let's assume he has a fairly average bodyfat of 15%. His LBM is 170. Unless he's extremely active, his TDEE will likely be in the realm of 2500 calories/day (using LBM x 15), give or take a few hundred. Therefore, 3185 is likely a very good starting point, and he will have to monitor closely and adjust from there.

I also want to point out that the macros can be played with slightly to the individuals liking. i.e. protein can be raised to 325, carbs dropped to 325, or fat can be raised slightly, etc. Things like this.

None of this is scientific and requires alot of trial and error. Everybody's body is different, and will react differently to macro distribution, timing, etc. 

I didn't mean to make things complicated, just wanted to offer a different approach. =)

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## jimmyinkedup

> I'm going to disagree with all of the above. For bulking, I like to start with:
> 
> protein - 1.5g protein/lb of bodyweight (I go with TOTAL bodyweight when working up a bulk diet)
> carbs - 1.75g carbs/lb of bodyweight
> fat - .33g fat/lb of bodyweight
> 
> Let's take the example of a 200lb man. His macros would be:
> 
> 300g protein - 1200 calories
> ...


I agree with bold above. 40/40/20 may be a good starting point...but never hesitate to manipluate. Everyone is different and will respond diff ...
People can say what they want re: calories in calroies out so its not that important...but for me..im very carb sensative..i have to monitor intake closely, take in a little more healthy fats etc...
When bulking im close to 40/40/20 but not right on. Years ago i was...till i got more experince with my body and its reactions.
So bottom line..not a bad starting point imo...but do not stick to it just because its the norm..dont be afriad to make changes based on results or lack therof.

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## Sgt. Hartman

> I'm going to disagree with all of the above. For bulking, I like to start with:
> 
> protein - 1.5g protein/lb of bodyweight (I go with TOTAL bodyweight when working up a bulk diet)
> carbs - 1.75g carbs/lb of bodyweight
> fat - .33g fat/lb of bodyweight
> 
> Let's take the example of a 200lb man. His macros would be:
> 
> 300g protein - 1200 calories
> ...


I'm surprised to hear you say this.

I'm not trying to be a disrespectful but I have a legit question about your opinion on this. 

I will agree that a "hardgainer" needs to eat more carbs than protein to grow, but what does a 200lb man who is a moderate or easy gainer do with all the extra carbs that he obviously is not using for energy? I just don't see how eating excess carbs can aid in anything other than fat gain. It seems to me that if you're going to eat any macro in excess it would be the one that's least likely to be stored as fat and is capable of being converted to muscle tissue - protein.

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## gbrice75

> I'm surprised to hear you say this.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a disrespectful but I have a legit question about your opinion on this. 
> 
> I will agree that a "hardgainer" needs to eat more carbs than protein to grow, but what does a 200lb man who is a moderate or easy gainer do with all the extra carbs that he obviously is not using for energy? I just don't see how eating excess carbs can aid in anything other than fat gain. It seems to me that if you're going to eat any macro in excess it would be the one that's least likely to be stored as fat and is capable of being converted to muscle tissue - protein.


No disrespect taken at all bro. Questioning eachother is how we all learn. =)

I will start by saying that my advice above is flawed because I was somehow under the impression that the thread was a typical 'bulk diet' thread. I just re-read and realized the OP is asking about lean mass... I would go about that a bit differently then the latter.

However, I have to answer your question with a question. What do you believe raising protein will do, assuming the individual is getting a sufficient amount (figure around 1.5g/lb of lean body weight)? Yes protein is least likely to be converted to fat, and is the only one that is used to build muscle. But based on what you're saying above, if a persons TDEE is 2500 and they want to eat a 3000 calorie diet to build muscle, would you recommend the surplus 500 calories come all from protein? I'm not being a smart ass, I really want to know.

Protein by itself is pretty useless without a delivery system... in this case mainly insulin via ingestion of carbs. When I work out mass diets (lean or straight bulk), I tend to always have carbs a bit higher then protein - but again, this is all individualistic.

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## Sgt. Hartman

Regarding protein/carbs, I agree that an excess of one without the other is useless. That's why IMO they should be kept in equal amounts as a starting point and adjusted based on results. So to answer your question on 500 excess cals, 250 carbs and 250 protein.

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## Kawigirl

I agree with jimmyinkedup....that ratio is a start but everyone is different. After time; you'll know how to adjust for your own body.

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## billyyb

some solid advice, cheers guys. And yes I also agree that finding out what works specifically for your body is very important. I have found out what works with training, now I just need to with my diet lol!

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## Gucks

> I'm going to disagree with all of the above. For bulking, I like to start with:
> 
> protein - 1.5g protein/lb of bodyweight (I go with TOTAL bodyweight when working up a bulk diet)
> carbs - 1.75g carbs/lb of bodyweight
> fat - .33g fat/lb of bodyweight
> 
> Let's take the example of a 200lb man. His macros would be:
> 
> 300g protein - 1200 calories
> ...


that works out at a 38/44/18 split, when i do my split i put carbs first btw...force of habit. so thats almost my 40/45/15 split :P i agree though, mess around untill u find ur sweet spot. with me i uped my carbs even more, i was almost at 50% carbs when i was seriously bulking. good luck  :Smilie:

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## Gucks

> I'm surprised to hear you say this.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a disrespectful but I have a legit question about your opinion on this. 
> 
> I will agree that a "hardgainer" needs to eat more carbs than protein to grow, but what does a 200lb man who is a moderate or easy gainer do with all the extra carbs that he obviously is not using for energy? I just don't see how eating excess carbs can aid in anything other than fat gain. It seems to me that if you're going to eat any macro in excess it would be the one that's least likely to be stored as fat and is capable of being converted to muscle tissue - protein.


what do u think happens all that excess protein..? protein is capable of being converted to carbs. thats exactly what happens PWO if u dont consume any carbs, ur body converts excess protein to carbs which it either uses or stores as fat, those carbs cant be converte dback into protein...yes u should up your protein, but uping your carbs is essential for any bulking diet, lean or not!

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## Sgt. Hartman

> what do u think happens all that excess protein..? protein is capable of being converted to carbs. thats exactly what happens PWO if u dont consume any carbs, ur body converts excess protein to carbs which it either uses or stores as fat, those carbs cant be converte dback into protein...yes u should up your protein, but uping your carbs is essential for any bulking diet, lean or not!


First of all, I never mentioned anything about any kind of keto or low-carb diet, we're talking about bulking and taking in excess calories after the bodies needs have already been met and what macros the additional calories should come from.

Secondly, if you read post #10 you'll see that I wrote that IMO carbs and protein should be consumed in equal amounts.

Thirdly, you're incorrect about what happens to excess protein. Protein is only converted to glycogen when glycogen stores are depleted through a process called gluconeogenesis. This is a very inefficient way of your body to obtain fuel so the idea that it would convert excess protein to excess glycogen and then store it as fat is ridiculous. It is virtually impossible for protein to be stored as fat - excess protein is broken down into amino acids and excreted in the urine.



The bottom line is that everyone's body responds differently and it seems that our opinions on this are based on personal experience as there is no black and white or wrong/right answer to this question. The important thing is to stick to a specific diet or macro split so you can make changes based on results.

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## Gucks

> First of all, I never mentioned anything about any kind of keto or low-carb diet, we're talking about bulking and taking in excess calories after the bodies needs have already been met and what macros the additional calories should come from.
> 
> Secondly, if you read post #10 you'll see that I wrote that IMO carbs and protein should be consumed in equal amounts.
> 
> Thirdly, you're incorrect about what happens to excess protein. Protein is only converted to glycogen when glycogen stores are depleted through a process called gluconeogenesis. This is a very inefficient way of your body to obtain fuel so the idea that it would convert excess protein to excess glycogen and then store it as fat is ridiculous. It is virtually impossible for protein to be stored as fat - excess protein is broken down into amino acids and excreted in the urine.
> 
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that everyone's body responds differently and it seems that our opinions on this are based on personal experience as there is no black and white or wrong/right answer to this question. The important thing is to stick to a specific diet or macro split so you can make changes based on results.


sorry, not turning this into a pissing contest but ur wrong. u make it sound like ALL excess protein is excreted by the body which is completely untrue. if u want a full explenation then ill give it. but excess amino acids that arent absorbed by muscles in the blood stream then get converted to glucose and fat! only SOME get excreted. excess protein will u make u gain fat. FACT!

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## Sgt. Hartman

> sorry, not turning this into a pissing contest but ur wrong. u make it sound like ALL excess protein is excreted by the body which is completely untrue. *if u want a full explenation then ill give it.* but excess amino acids that arent absorbed by muscles in the blood stream then get converted to glucose and fat! only SOME get excreted. excess protein will u make u gain fat. FACT!


No pissing contest bro, we're all here to learn so by all means please give be a full "explenation". Obviously, you know more about nutrition than Lyle McDonald - he wrote this:



_While the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.

The odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of fat) isnt one of them.

I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isnt going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.

What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, its a slow process and isnt complete.

So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that excess protein just turns to fat, its really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those wont apply to 99.9% of real-world situations._

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## Gucks

> No pissing contest bro, we're all here to learn so by all means please give be a full "explenation". Obviously, you know more about nutrition than Lyle McDonald - he wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> _While the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.
> 
> The odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.
> 
> I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.
> ...


protein is broken down into peptides, which is further broken down into amino acids by enzymes in your gut. the amino acids get absorbed through your small intestines inot the blood stream. they then travel through your blood stream and are used 2 rebuild protein stores in cells. all excess amino acids that arent needed by your bodys cells are converted to glucose as an energy source and u dont need me to tell you that excess glucose is what fat stores are. protein isnt sotred as fat directly, but excess protein is used as glucose which if in excess will be stored as fat. 

the idea that your body will just throw away excess calories is redculous, protein is calories just like carbs or fat. ur body will always try and utilise as much as it can or else store it. ill grant you SOME protein is excreted, just like some carbs and fats are excreted.

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## FireGuy

If I were wanting to gain lean muscle, in regards to diet I would be 90% concerned about total calories and 10% concerned about the macro ratios.

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## Damienm05

> However, I have to answer your question with a question. What do you believe raising protein will do, assuming the individual is getting a sufficient amount (figure around 1.5g/lb of lean body weight)? Yes protein is least likely to be converted to fat, and is the only one that is used to build muscle. But based on what you're saying above, if a persons TDEE is 2500 and they want to eat a 3000 calorie diet to build muscle, would you recommend the surplus 500 calories come all from protein? I'm not being a smart ass, I really want to know.
> 
> Protein by itself is pretty useless without a delivery system... in this case mainly insulin via ingestion of carbs. When I work out mass diets (lean or straight bulk), I tend to always have carbs a bit higher then protein - but again, this is all individualistic.


Bingo. I can agree with this post 100% based on my own experiences as my diets have evolved. I used to be under the misconception that protein is simply excreted if not used and when in doubt, all extra calories beyond what was essential for energy should come from protein. When I learned the truth, I began slowly replacing some of my ridiculous protein intake (like 400g just from complete sources) with more energy sources and the simple fact is, I saw better gains. I was surely wasting a lot of my protein intake.

Also, remember that it's calories in vs. calories out and insulin response that dictate whether or not we gain the unwanted pounds. Even with a high carb intake, if timing and food quality is on point, you simply won't be unhappy with the results. Meanwhile, your protein intake is delivered efficiently and 100% available for rebuilding lean tissue and your workouts may be performed with optimal intensity.

Now depending on how we, individually, respond to carbohydrate intake; there's always more than one road to travel. Fats do the job pretty damn well too. Just don't fall into the myth that protein is everything like I did, sacrificing gains in the process. Sufficient protein to grow and the rest is energy. Once you have the materials you need to build a house, your labor will dictate how quickly and efficiently it gets built!

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## Gucks

> Bingo. I can agree with this post 100% based on my own experiences as my diets have evolved. I used to be under the misconception that protein is simply excreted if not used and when in doubt, all extra calories beyond what was essential for energy should come from protein. When I learned the truth, I began slowly replacing some of my ridiculous protein intake (like 400g just from complete sources) with more energy sources and the simple fact is, I saw better gains. I was surely wasting a lot of my protein intake.
> 
> Also, remember that it's calories in vs. calories out and insulin response that dictate whether or not we gain the unwanted pounds. Even with a high carb intake, if timing and food quality is on point, you simply won't be unhappy with the results. Meanwhile, your protein intake is delivered efficiently and 100% available for rebuilding lean tissue and your workouts may be performed with optimal intensity.
> 
> Now depending on how we, individually, respond to carbohydrate intake; there's always more than one road to travel. Fats do the job pretty damn well too. Just don't fall into the myth that protein is everything like I did, sacrificing gains in the process. Sufficient protein to grow and the rest is energy. *Once you have the materials you need to build a house, your labor will dictate how quickly and efficiently it gets built!*


*
*

couldnt have put in better myself  :Smilie:

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## billyyb

haha yes that was a very nice way of putting it

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