# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  Full Squats with lower weight vs 1/4 squats with insane weight

## dmk327

So we have all been there. The ego takes over and you just wanna pack on an insane amount of weight on the bar. So you load up 495 after working up from 315,365,405,455.. Only problem is these are all done not even going to paralell maybe about a quarter of a squat. You definitely feel it in the quads and back but is this really helping with any development or true power generation and strength gain? So i recently started to full squat and what a humbling experience it was. Going below parallel and almost getting stuck on 225! So then I do this with 135 and jesus christ I am feeling like death after 12-15 reps! I definitely feel alot more muscle recruitment this way. So will this develop legs better than insanely heavy weight? I always subscribed to the you gotta lift big to get big doctrine, but if you really watch the guys that are huge and perfect you rarely see them throwing around crazy weight. Its always average with perfect form. So what is the opinion??

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## terraj

The only way I know of how to use 1/4 squats, is on progressive movement training, but this a little advanced and more suited to powerlifting.

IMO, for size and power, you need at least to parallel, to get complete muscle development, also by not getting a full range in a squat you are asking for injury due to imbalance.

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## dmk327

Thats what I thought but I would contend with that even being usefull in powerlifting bc I thought competitions required you to go to parallel??? Also what type of injuries would we be looking at?

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## terraj

Powerlifting rules require that you break parallel, parallel is when your hip crease is at the same height as the knee.
Deeper squats are shown to be safer for the knees, not going to parallel will cause shear forces on the knees, as the hammys are not engaged. By getting deep you strengthen the knee

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## ghettoboyd

you answered your own question bro...it is better to use less weight and perfect form over heavy weight and not so perfect form imho...there are lots of guys at my gym that think its all about the heavy weight and 1/4 reps on squats and the leg press for that matter and i just laugh cus they never seem to make improvements, and they cant figure out why....

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## scotty51312

When i was younger and not very smart, i thought i was cool cause i was doing reps with 400lbs when i was barely bending my knees. A few years ago someone pulled me asside and talked me into trying deep squats. I found out years of 1/4 squats had ruined my form when it came to a deep squat. 

My suggestion is to do box squats to start with a box that takes you just below parallel. Pause for a minimum of 1 second alowing the box to take all the weight then explode up. A few months of that and you'll feel way more comfortable doing deep squats

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## F4iGuy

Ass to heels. Watch Tom Platz.

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## dmk327

It is very humbling though

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## FireGuy

> It is very humbling though


Squatting ligther weight may be humbling but it's 10x better than being the guy in the gym with the bar loaded doing partial partials that everyone is snickering at under their breath.

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## songdog

You will get so much more out of full squats.

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## dmk327

I feel like a puss tho bc before I was working with 495 and now I can barely full squat 315 and get my best sets out of 225

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## yannick35

> So we have all been there. The ego takes over and you just wanna pack on an insane amount of weight on the bar. So you load up 495 after working up from 315,365,405,455.. Only problem is these are all done not even going to paralell maybe about a quarter of a squat. You definitely feel it in the quads and back but is this really helping with any development or true power generation and strength gain? So i recently started to full squat and what a humbling experience it was. Going below parallel and almost getting stuck on 225! So then I do this with 135 and jesus christ I am feeling like death after 12-15 reps! I definitely feel alot more muscle recruitment this way. So will this develop legs better than insanely heavy weight? I always subscribed to the you gotta lift big to get big doctrine, but if you really watch the guys that are huge and perfect you rarely see them throwing around crazy weight. Its always average with perfect form. So what is the opinion??


Since i injured my lower back over 10 years ago squatting like 505 pounds with terrible terrible forms, i started squatting again 2 years ago and like you i put less weight but concentrate on the forms and movement to perfection. I put even less weight then you, around 120 pounds even less.

Strict reps and man my legs are on fire. I also do leg press where i can put on max weight on this with less fear of injury. Then finish off with squats.

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## Floydian

that partial squat kills your spine.. and knee!
don't do that

half is good , full is better to me

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## Black

> I feel like a puss tho bc before I was working with 495 and now I can barely full squat 315 and get my best sets out of 225


That's the ego talkin. You can also ask yourself if you were ever REALLY squatting 495. I used to never go ass-to-grass in the squat and load up the bar. All that did was leave me with big upper quads, but WEAK and SMALL lower quads, and obviously weak in the deep squat position. The lower quad works the hardest the more the knee is fully bent. 

Milos Sarcev once said, "Full squats equals full development. Partial squats equal partial development." There's a lot of truth in that.

Also, I saw a guy in the gym the other day who had 450 or so on the flat bench press. He wasn't in good shape at all, so I was interested in seeing him bench that much. Needless to say, he moved the weight probably an inch or two and then re-racked it. It looked like he was just moving his shoulder blades. Pretty funny.

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## baseline_9

Full depth is the way forward IMO if you can hold a tight arch and nice form...

This mainly comes down to hamstring flexibility...


I squat full depth and actually stop at the bottom on some reps to get real deep

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## lc1213

i used to do parallel and sub parallel squats until I tried to do one too many reps with a little to much weight and ended up pulling a groin muscle (nearly tore it) and the groin muscle is a bitch to heal. now i do some sets of atg squats with a lighter weight then i move to parallel box squats. I know box squats arent as good as atg squats but I feel that going parallel on the box is the next best thing.

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## inked1314

I was having some muscle binding issues with my lower back after heavy 1/4 squats. So I went to 130lbs and go deep for three sets of 10. I have had some of the best results. with muscularity and flex tendons doing it this way. My legs are FINALLY showing signs of life!. No sense in creating a injury. That could potentially put an end to every thing.

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## Chris J

Great advise...I will leave my ego at home next leg day too. Thanks

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## Nooomoto

1/4 squats give 1/4 results... It's better to do it right with less weight

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## gmantheman

I believe 1/4 reps with hvy weights do have its place. It allows the persons to get use to supra-maximal weights. You could throw in 3 sets of 2 1/4 squats after your set of regular squats.

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## hankdiesel

> Ass to heels. Watch Tom Platz.


He was a sicko! I try an model my leg routine around his. Emphasize the word TRY.

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## dec11

> *I believe 1/4 reps with hvy weights do have its place*. It allows the persons to get use to supra-maximal weights. You could throw in 3 sets of 2 1/4 squats after your set of regular squats.


no, they dont...........

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## brad1986

> *no, they dont*...........


agree. Shortened range of motion only leads to mucsle imbalance and injuries. Shortend R.O.M is purely ego

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## Nooomoto

> I believe 1/4 reps with hvy weights do have its place. It allows the persons to get use to supra-maximal weights. You could throw in 3 sets of 2 1/4 squats after your set of regular squats.


Well you'd be wrong in your belief. Squatting 1/4 of a rep with more weight than you can handle is a fine way to injure yourself, and to train your body and muscles to do the WRONG thing.

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## gmantheman

I have used 1/4 squats maybe a handful of times. I got the idea from a book call The New Rules of Lifting by Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cogrove. The idea is not to use a ton more weight in the 1/4 squat but to eventually be able to do that weight for a full range of motion.

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## gmantheman

It seems powerlifting legend was also used 1/4 squats. Here is a short excerpt from Powerlifting Magazine.
1/4 squats are real good for developing the torso muscles that have to stabalize the squat. For safeties sake, only do these in a rack. To do them out of a rack is to invite injury. Only do these if you have a power rack or some apparatus to catch the weights approximately 6 inches from lockout. Otherwise you will most likely suffer a devastating injury. I put the bar on the rack roughly six inches from lockout and push up. However many who do these do choose to do a walkout inside the rack. Both are good methods. Like I said earlier, the bar should move about 6 inches or so. You should start doing these with about 150 over your squat goal. That would be a good weight for your first time doing these. Then you can add weight over time. But start a little conservative to get used to the heavy weights.

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## Nooomoto

> I have used 1/4 squats maybe a handful of times. I got the idea from a book call The New Rules of Lifting by Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cogrove. The idea is not to use a ton more weight in the 1/4 squat but to eventually be able to do that weight for a full range of motion.


Have you looked at pictures of those guys? Definitely not some dudes that I'd be looking to for workout/training advice, ESPECIALLY in regards to squatting...I'm actually pretty positive I can squat more than both of them, possibly combined and I've never trained using 1/4 squats. I've read many powerlifting training manuals, and none of them ever said anything about 1/4 squats. They did say plenty about box squats, lunges, GHRs, reverse hypers. Compound movements and accessory work.

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## gmantheman

I always thought both Alwyn Cosgrove and Lou Schuler had sound advice in regards to bodybuilding and fitness.

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## Nooomoto

> I always thought both Alwyn Cosgrove and Lou Schuler had sound advice in regards to bodybuilding and fitness.


It seems like they do more writing than they do working out. If I wanted advice on bodybuilding I'd probably consult Arnold's encyclopedia before anything else. If I wanted advice on squatting heavy weight I'd hit up the Elite FTS manuals, Westside, etc etc. I'm sure their advice is more than sufficient for the normal everyday Joe who just wants to look a bit better, but for people who are pushing the limits and need extreme levels of performance be it on the stage at a BB comp, at a PL comp, or on the rugby pitch (like me) they fall a bit short.

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## im83931

I have been doing full squats too. It was definitely humbling to drop half the weight. I can see some of the casual gym guys looking at me like they are thinking "huh I can squat more than him" 
I have even had to extend my rest periods between sets. Leg say is brutal.

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## brad1986

> I have been doing full squats too. It was definitely humbling to drop half the weight. I can see some of the casual gym guys looking at me like they are thinking *"huh I can squat more than him"* I have even had to extend my rest periods between sets. Leg say is brutal.


ya but it doesnt matter cuz there form is probably sh!t. I see very few people squat correctly

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## zaggahamma

> ya but it doesnt matter cuz there form is probably sh!t. I see very few people squat correctly


this is what i've noticed lately as well...

about going past parallel vs. parallel have i missed them posts regarding this difference...i started making sure i went parallel when reading this post or a similar one also recent and had to drop down but parallel is my limit...even without weight on the bar.....

thoughts

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## brad1986

> this is what i've noticed lately as well...
> 
> about going past parallel vs. parallel have i missed them posts regarding this difference...i started making sure i went parallel when reading this post or a similar one also recent and had to drop down but parallel is my limit...even without weight on the bar.....
> 
> thoughts


parrallel is the general rule. Some go past parrallel but there is a heavy shearing on the knees when doing that so I def dont go past parrallel.... as i want to keep squatting for the rest of my life lol.

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## l2elapse

> parrallel is the general rule. Some go past parrallel but there is a heavy shearing on the knees when doing that so I def dont go past parrallel.... as i want to keep squatting for the rest of my life lol.


ive found going past parallel with lighter weight to actually strengthen my knees

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## dec11

> It seems powerlifting legend was also used 1/4 squats. Here is a short excerpt from Powerlifting Magazine.
> 1/4 squats are real good for developing the torso muscles that have to stabalize the squat. For safeties sake, only do these in a rack. To do them out of a rack is to invite injury. Only do these if you have a power rack or some apparatus to catch the weights approximately 6 inches from lockout. Otherwise you will most likely suffer a devastating injury. I put the bar on the rack roughly six inches from lockout and push up. However many who do these do choose to do a walkout inside the rack. Both are good methods. Like I said earlier, the bar should move about 6 inches or so. You should start doing these with about 150 over your squat goal. That would be a good weight for your first time doing these. Then you can add weight over time. But start a little conservative to get used to the heavy weights.


i have competed plifting all my adult life and i can assure you that neither myself or anyone i know in the sport does 1/4 reps. dont believe all the crap you read

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## dec11

> parrallel is the general rule. Some go past parrallel but there is a heavy shearing on the knees when doing that so I def dont go past parrallel.... as i want to keep squatting for the rest of my life lol.


i always go past parallel, and i had a very bad knee injury as a youngster (a spike right through my left knee underneath the cap) and squatting low has never ever hurt my knees in 18yrs of heavy lifting mate.

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## zaggahamma

so to some, is it the belief that parallel is not full ROM? and/or going past would yield more/better gains

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## Nooomoto

> so to some, is it the belief that parallel is not full ROM? and/or going past would yield more/better gains


In competition, slightly below parallel would be considered the point at which you can return from to perform a full squat. The top of the legs at the hip joint must be below the top of the knees for it to count.

Parallel is NOT full ROM, but not everyone has the body mechanics allowing them to go ass to the floor, so as long as you can meet the standards described above, it's a squat.

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## zaggahamma

> In competition, slightly below parallel would be considered the point at which you can return from to perform a full squat. The top of the legs at the hip joint must be below the top of the knees for it to count.
> 
> Parallel is NOT full ROM, but not everyone has the body mechanics allowing them to go ass to the floor, so as long as you can meet the standards described above, it's a squat.


thanks...legs are definately a weak point/lagging as i neglected for most years of training...trying to bring that up of late...i see some progress...back to the squat though like brad was mentioning and i said before....i can hardly make it to parallel it seems as if my hip locks or something its hard to explain...obviously i'm not the only one that only goes parallel..

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## Nooomoto

> thanks...legs are definately a weak point/lagging as i neglected for most years of training...trying to bring that up of late...i see some progress...back to the squat though like brad was mentioning and i said before....i can hardly make it to parallel it seems as if my hip locks or something its hard to explain...obviously i'm not the only one that only goes parallel..


Stretch, stretch, stretch.

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## brad1986

> Stretch, stretch, stretch.


yes. Stretch and warm up with light wieght or even body wt to get yourself moving in full ROM. Alot of times just lightening up th wieght will do wonders for your form too

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## zaggahamma

guess i've been only getting past the first phase of stretch...

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## gmantheman

> i have competed plifting all my adult life and i can assure you that neither myself or anyone i know in the sport does 1/4 reps. dont believe all the crap you read


 On paper, the 1/4 squat idea seemed logical but like I said, I have only used it maybe a handful of times. I try to go to parallel all the time.

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## dec11

> On paper, the 1/4 squat idea *seemed logical* but like I said, I have only used it maybe a handful of times. I try to go to parallel all the time.


its not logical in any sense mate, think about it

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## Tyger

> Squatting ligther weight may be humbling but it's 10x better than being the guy in the gym with the bar loaded doing partial partials that everyone is snickering at under their breath.


This is why people in the gym should apply this exact same idea to all their lifts. Totally agree.

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