# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS >  Anavar is NOT a mild compound where HPTA suppression/shutdown is concerned!!

## Atomini

I've been meaning to share this information with you all for a couple weeks now, but i've been pretty busy with the holidays and what not.

Anyhow, my personal research as well as my university studies have lead me to some interesting information on Anavar and its effects on HPTA suppression, and the real hard truth behind it. Anavar has always been touted as a very 'mild' compound. For the most part, it is. But too many people have for decades been using the world 'mild' to describe every effect and aspect of this compound. Anavar is NOT 'mild' in the realm of HPTA function, nor is it 'mild' in terms of its anabolic effects (it is actually quite the powerful anabolic steroid , perhaps more so than Anadrol in fact), however that's a story for another day. The focus of my quick post here is Anavar's effects on the HPTA since that is one of the most expounded descriptions of one of the areas Anavar is frequently said to be 'mild' in. Well, i'm here to tell you all that this is absolutely not the case. Anavar is just as suppressive as any anabolic steroid out there in existance.

In my program, shortly before the Christmas break, we _actually_ covered Anavar!!! I was extremely excited (and surprised) to see that here in a pre-med university program, we're actually covering (albeit very briefly) an anabolic steroid and its effects on the endocrine system. As anyone familiar with life-sciences programs and med school programs knows, there is no such thing as an 'anabolic steroid' course or class. So I was pretty ecstatic, even though this was very brief. We covered some of its actions in muscle tissue and other tissues, we covered its medical applications and its beneficial results in patients suffering from trauma and its use as an osteoperosis medication. A guest speaker covered most of this with us, who is a former proffessor and is a current MD involved in research in the Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism. After everything was over, I had a chance to speak to him and ask him to share/exchange information concerning Anavar and such. Of course the guy is very busy and had only a half hour to spare with me, which I thought was very generous of him. So we discussed a whole ton of AAS-related topics, of which 30 minutes was just not enough time, and man was I blown away. But where Anavar is concerned, he told me quite a few eye-opening details, and provided me with a bunch of clinical studies to investigate for my own personal amusement.

It seems as though Anavar is commonly labelled by all of the gym bros for decades as 'mildly' suppressive to the HPTA, but there is only a sliver of truth to this. This seems to only be the case with the absolute lowest of medical prescription doses (such as 5mg daily administered to children). Bodybuilding doses, which is what we are all concerned with here, is a whole different ball game and in studies demonstrate very strong suppression of endogenous Testosterone production. The most prominent study I saw was one involving 6 young male test subjects that were administered Anavar had shown that *after only 5 days of Anavar administration (at only 15mg/day), the Testosterone levels ofthese 6 subjects dropped DRASTICALLY by day 5 from 449ng/dl to 282ng/dl – a 37% reduction of Testosterone in just 5 days(1).* That is a massive drop after such a small period of time at a dose that isn't even considered a 'bodybuilding' dose. If this is what Anavar does at 15mg daily after 5 days of use, ask yourself what bodybuilding doses (30mg MINIMUM daily of Anavar) for weeks will end up doing?


This is a graph from the study conducted. It demonstrates total androgen concentration showing total serum Testosterone (lined areas) and Oxandrolone (black areas) concentrations in five young men on days 0, 3, and 5, Testosterone decreased significantly from days 0 and 3 to day 5 (P < 0.05).

- The first point i'm making of this post is to show all of you newcomers and youngsters here who are under the age of 24 that Anavar is NOT a safe or 'mild' choice to engage in. It very well has the potential for the same amount of shutdown as a Testosterone cycle as far as I am concerned. So if you think that attempting an Anavar-only cycle for your first cycle is going to save you from any potential permanent HPTA problems later on in life, think again!

- The second point i'm making here is to show that Anavar-only cycles are destructive to the body without the inclusion of some form of Testosterone. Anavar necessitates the use of Testosterone in at least a TRT dose in order to maintain normal physiological function in the presence of a suppressed/shutdown HPTA as a result of Anavar use. Will you die if you do an Anavar-only cycle? No. But it's not optimal or healthy for the body, and can cause issues (both noticeable and un-noticeable) when your endogenous production of Testosterone bottoms out.

There exists no 'perfect anabolic steroid', but Anavar is perhaps the anabolic steroid that has come the closest to the 'perfect steroid' - but the point here it that is NOT 'perfect' by any means and still possesses its flaws.

REFERENCES:
1. Short-Term Oxandrolone Administration Stimulates Net Muscle Protein Synthesis in Young Men. Melinda Sheffield-Moore, Randall J. Urban, Steven E. Wolf, J. Jiang, Don H. Catlin, David N. Herndon, Robert R. Wolfe and Arny A. Ferrando. Sheffield-Moore et al. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. August 1, 1999; 84 (8): 2705

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## t-dogg

Good read. Thats why I say to always run test with it. They work great together.

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## Fllifter

As always, very informative and a great post.

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## Brick

Wow. Another great post

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## Soar

Another good read ty

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## kelkel

Great post Atomini! I bet you were excited like a kid during that one on one.

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## bigsiv

Great post Atomini!

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## Atomini

> Great post Atomini! I bet you were excited like a kid during that one on one.


Like a kid in a candy store. People were looking at me very strangely, like I had a toaster on my head. I was also the only one to approach the MD after the lectures lol.

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## jrod04

Great post! And very good to to know, thanx for sharing that info!

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## Lunk1

Great info...not that it's any surprise coming from you A. 

No doubt this post will be referenced once or twice  :Wink:

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## gymfu

How are study's like this being done? Are you sure this study is good information? 
Not being confrontational, I just thought that study's with AAS could be done because they are on the controlled substances list.

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## OdinsOtherSon

Thanks Atomini! Great info...really appreciate you taking the time to share!!

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## beenie

I believe that's why people combine Anavar with test.

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## RoadToHuge

Great info Atomini. I know anavar has a profound effect on me. The again I run it with test and tren . I really love those three together. Now if I could figure out how to get my appetite back I would be set!

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## Lunk1

> I believe that's why people combine Anavar with test.


Have you not read any of the Q&A posts...friggin thing is full og Var ONLY cycles every week!

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## Lunk1

> Great info Atomini. I know anavar has a profound effect on me. The again I run it with test and tren. I really love those three together. Now if I could figure out how to get my appetite back I would be set!


What is your test at per week?

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## ElectraMaddox

I love this thread!

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## Atomini

> How are study's like this being done? Are you sure this study is good information? 
> Not being confrontational, I just thought that study's with AAS could be done because they are on the controlled substances list.


I believe you're misunderstood. The fact that these substances are on the controlled substances list do not prohibit medical, scientific, and scholarly educational institutions from conducting ethical studies into these substances (this also extends to those other recreational drugs that we cannot mention here on this forum).

To say that because a drug is a scheduled substance and therefore no institution is permitted to examine, analyze, and study it, is, to say the least, extremely hubris. And I am particularly VERY GLAD that the politicians have not stepped over the boundaries to restrict such a thing for such a disgusting reason.

Anabolic steroids have perhaps more use in medicine than do any other scheduled and controlled substances - and remember, the United States of America is THE ONLY country in the world (with the exception of France I think) that has criminalized personal use and possession of anabolic steroids . Canada is one such country where personal possession and use is legal (AAS here in Canada are a schedule IV drug as opposed to schedule III in the USA). So to say that it is a controlled substance in the United Statea and therefore not viable for study anywhere else in the world seems ridiculous to me. There have been hundreds of studies conducted on anabolic steroids both before their legislation in 1990, as well as afterwards. Of course, studies like these must be within the ethical boundaries, and they of course do not extend to substances that are NOT approved for human use (such as Trenbolone , for example) and of course this is the reason why Trenbolone has undergone almost no studies on human test subjects. Ethical boundaries of course also include issues of safety. So, some questions about AAS (or any drug for this matter) will never be answered because some studies cannot be ethically justified. An example of a study that would be ethically wrong would be one in which test subjects are administered insanely high doses of Testosterone (lets say 2 grams per week), which would increase the chances of injury to a great deal. You'd never see a study like this conducted. But studies on medical applications and doses? Absolutely. Studies on average bodybuilding doses? Yes, many have been conducted.

To answer your question, yes, these studies are good information. They are peer-reviewed, published in medical journals for free access to anyone who wishes to review the material.

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## Atomini

> Have you not read any of the Q&A posts...friggin thing is full og Var ONLY cycles every week!


Yeah its one of the reasons I wanted to create this thread. LOTS of people under the age of 24 asking if its okay to run an Anavar -only cycle because they read (or heard) elsewhere that Anavar is a 'mild' AAS, and so they think they can avoid the potential long-term damage to their HPTA if they use Anavar. Well, to put it simply: they are wrong, and so is whatever source they heard from that Anavar is 'mild' on the HPTA.

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## blacksmoke

You mention that anavar may be more anabolic anadrol . I'd like to here more about this.
Great post by the way.

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## Atomini

> You mention that anavar may be more anabolic anadrol . I'd like to here more about this.
> Great post by the way.


Well, that was a very generalized comment of mine, but it's something i'd like to post about in the future. I've realized that Anavar is possibly far better at building mass (without the bloating and water weight) than everyone seems to think. It's Primobolan that is so utterly weak that its practically useless for anyone.

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## t-dogg

LOL Im still wondering why jose c said its ok to run anavar year round...

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## Atomini

Yeeaaahhh.... I am actually going to keep my mouth shut on that. I don't want to say anything more than that it is a very stupid idea. I'm sorry, but Jose is dead wrong there. I also hear the same stuff from gym bros who say Anavar is a great compound to bridge with or to use year-round safely because it's 'mild'. No, it isn't mild on your HPTA and if you use it year round without periodic use of HCG or something, you are going to screw your endocrine system up, no doubt about that. Liver wise it's not a good idea either. Even medical prescription guidelines reccomend Anavar to be used for no longer than a 3 month period MAXIMUM.

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## MickeyKnox

Absolutely fantastic, Atomini. Thank you very much for another intelligently written article. 

You can be assured I will be using this thread as a reference link.  :Smilie:

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## Rv8G30

This might be a little off topic but if someone was to run test enanthate and anavar would you recommend a trt dose of test and high amount of anavar? Like you say about tren ? Or would test at 500mg / wk be better with anavar?

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## Bertuzzi

Great post.... I know when I ran VAR only years back it shut me down hard. Glad to have a study and some science backing it up as I only have personal experience with blood work of course to go off of.

Thanks for the post, Great info.

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## Atomini

> Absolutely fantastic, Atomini. Thank you very much for another intelligently written article. 
> 
> You can be assured I will be using this thread as a reference link.


Yes, I implore you and anyone else to reference this thread/information to those common posts you always see about Anavar being 'mild', especially the posts made by kids who think that using Anavar because it's 'mild' will prevent any potential HPTA damage.




> This might be a little off topic but if someone was to run test enanthate and anavar would you recommend a trt dose of test and high amount of anavar? Like you say about tren? Or would test at 500mg / wk be better with anavar?


I always advocate a TRT dose with anything and everything if you're stacking stuff with Testosterone . There are several benefits to doing this, such as controlling Estrogen without the use of an AI, and allowing yourself to see the sole benefits from the primary anabolic you are using as opposed to Testosterone. I have nothing against using higher doses of Testosterone (such as 500mg weekly) stacked with other things like Anavar, but you must be aware that with the higher dose of Testosterone, you are going to have more aromatization and you will have to be prepared to take the steps necessary to deal with that.

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## RoadToHuge

I run it at 350 to 400 and 400 tren .. 100 mg var for 2 weeks at start, and 4 weeks at end of cycle. All ethanates..

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## kelkel

> Great info Atomini. I know anavar has a profound effect on me. The again I run it with test and tren. I really love those three together. Now if I could figure out how to get my appetite back I would be set!


GHRP-6 will do it...

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## Atomini

I haven't had appetite issues on Anavar . I'm runnign 100mg daily of it with 200mg Trenbolone and 100mg testosterone weekly.

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## Rv8G30

> Yes, I implore you and anyone else to reference this thread/information to those common posts you always see about Anavar being 'mild', especially the posts made by kids who think that using Anavar because it's 'mild' will prevent any potential HPTA damage.
> 
> 
> 
> I always advocate a TRT dose with anything and everything if you're stacking stuff with Testosterone. There are several benefits to doing this, such as controlling Estrogen without the use of an AI, and allowing yourself to see the sole benefits from the primary anabolic you are using as opposed to Testosterone. I have nothing against using higher doses of Testosterone (such as 500mg weekly) stacked with other things like Anavar, but you must be aware that with the higher dose of Testosterone, you are going to have more aromatization and you will have to be prepared to take the steps necessary to deal with that.


Thanks for the response. What about from a lean gain standpoint? Say all conditions are equal like diet and training. What option you think would provide better gains?

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## Atomini

I would stick to TRT dose of Testosterone with a higher dose of Anavar if those are the gains you want. That's what i'm currently doing, although I am cutting. It is still going very well regardless. Ever since I have run Testosterone at TRT doses and allowed the other compounds I am using with it to be the primary anabolic workhorse, I have seen amazing changes and benefits that far surpass the years I would run Testosterone at 400 - 500mg weekly with other stuff. Everyone has their preference though, but mine is to run Testosterone at a TRT dose if I am using another compound with it.

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## RoadToHuge

Tren seems to blunt my appetite.. not the var.

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## RoadToHuge

Thanks, will do this for next cycle.. Getting to my 215 @10% goal is going to take some eating..

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## Bonaparte

> Well, that was a very generalized comment of mine, but it's something i'd like to post about in the future. I've realized that Anavar is possibly far better at building mass (without the bloating and water weight) than everyone seems to think. *It's Primobolan that is so utterly weak that its practically useless for anyone.*


I have to disagree. Primo at a solid dose is amazing. Not Trenbolone amazing, but the gains to side effects ratio cannot be beat.

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## testluva

Great post Dr Atomini. We need bro's like you helping us out with posting these research studies. What about Deca ? Do you have any info in this compound?

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## Atomini

> I have to disagree. Primo at a solid dose is amazing. Not Trenbolone amazing, but the gains to side effects ratio cannot be beat.


Yes, you are correct - I seem to be making too many generalized statements lately about Primo. I should clarify myself and state that the cost:benefit ratio is quite high for Primo compared to Anavar or many other AAS. Primobolan is very weak, and so in order to grasp its benefits, it must be run at a very high dose. I have never used Primobolan myself but everything I have seen and heard shows that when used at the appropriate effective dose, it is a great compound. The problem is, of course, cost:benefit.




> Great post Dr Atomini. We need bro's like you helping us out with posting these research studies. What about Deca? Do you have any info in this compound?


I haven't looked into Nandrolone very much yet, but I will be very shortly. I do know that there is already a solid base of evidence out there that shows that Nandrolone is also not as 'mild' as once thought, and is very suppressive on the HPTA. It's almost common knowledge by now.

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## warmouth

Holy Crap Atomini! Youve done it again. And this is the perfect thread for everyone who thinks anavar is "mild". I ran it and loved it, but it was anything but mild. I suffered horrible insomnia, night sweats, cotton mouth, cramps, spasms, but the worse of it was the sleeplessness. I try to tell everyone that it isnt as mild as it is made out to be. In my case, it was like tren sides(from what Ive heard) and was brutal until about a week after I finished up. Everything got back to normal(sleep wise). But my lipids and liver enzymes took a big hit. Great post, and I am still looking for that one the I KNOW you have been putting together for masteron !

On a side question, when you delve into nandrolone , what is going to be your dosing protocol? TRT+high nandrolone, 50/50, high test/low nandrolone? Just curious to what you are going to do because I have mine on standby and am pondering what I am going to do about mine. I am thinking a Test:NanDec ratio of about 600:400, but still unsure. Dont want the nasty sides of the NanDec, thats why I was thinking about running the test a bit higher. Sorry to venture off of this great topic. Great work!

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## MuscleInk

Great post Atomini. Good to see some evidence backing up many of the comments posted about Anavar suppression. I'll be referring to this post often and looking up the pub you referenced!

Well done, as usual.

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## Rv8G30

> Holy Crap Atomini! Youve done it again. And this is the perfect thread for everyone who thinks anavar is "mild". I ran it and loved it, but it was anything but mild. I suffered horrible insomnia, night sweats, cotton mouth, cramps, spasms, but the worse of it was the sleeplessness. I try to tell everyone that it isnt as mild as it is made out to be. In my case, it was like tren sides(from what Ive heard) and was brutal until about a week after I finished up. Everything got back to normal(sleep wise). But my lipids and liver enzymes took a big hit. Great post, and I am still looking for that one the I KNOW you have been putting together for masteron !
> 
> On a side question, when you delve into nandrolone, what is going to be your dosing protocol? TRT+high nandrolone, 50/50, high test/low nandrolone? Just curious to what you are going to do because I have mine on standby and am pondering what I am going to do about mine. I am thinking a Test:NanDec ratio of about 600:400, but still unsure. Dont want the nasty sides of the NanDec, thats why I was thinking about running the test a bit higher. Sorry to venture off of this great topic. Great work!


Whoa I didnt realize the sides were this bad especially the sleeplessness part. Makes me reconsider doing a trt dose of test and high anavar dose. Maybe i should just do normal 500mg test and var at the end. If sides get too bad then i can drop var and finish as test only cycle.

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## lovbyts

Great post, now we have some science and data to point to when telling the kids/newbies why it's a bad idea to run Var or anything without test.

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## Atomini

> Holy Crap Atomini! Youve done it again. And this is the perfect thread for everyone who thinks anavar is "mild". I ran it and loved it, but it was anything but mild. I suffered horrible insomnia, night sweats, cotton mouth, cramps, spasms, but the worse of it was the sleeplessness. I try to tell everyone that it isnt as mild as it is made out to be. In my case, it was like tren sides(from what Ive heard) and was brutal until about a week after I finished up. Everything got back to normal(sleep wise). But my lipids and liver enzymes took a big hit. Great post, and I am still looking for that one the I KNOW you have been putting together for masteron !
> 
> On a side question, when you delve into nandrolone, what is going to be your dosing protocol? TRT+high nandrolone, 50/50, high test/low nandrolone? Just curious to what you are going to do because I have mine on standby and am pondering what I am going to do about mine. I am thinking a Test:NanDec ratio of about 600:400, but still unsure. Dont want the nasty sides of the NanDec, thats why I was thinking about running the test a bit higher. Sorry to venture off of this great topic. Great work!


When it comes to Nandrolone , I would just advise the same idea of TRT Testosterone with higher Nandrolone. Typical ratio of something like 100:400. We all know that 19-nor side effects are greatly pronounced with an increase of Estrogen from aromatizable anabolic steroids . So unless you plan on running an AI with your higher Testosterone dose, i'd just run it at TRT amounts.




> Whoa I didnt realize the sides were this bad especially the sleeplessness part. Makes me reconsider doing a trt dose of test and high anavar dose. Maybe i should just do normal 500mg test and var at the end. If sides get too bad then i can drop var and finish as test only cycle.


The sides that warmouth pointed out I don't think are experienced by MOST people. I'm running 100mg daily of Anavar right now and am not experiencing any cramps, spasms, cotton mouth, sleeplessness or appetite suppression. But we all know individuals respond differently to everything between one another, and this is probably one of those cases.

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## fit2bOld

Great info Atomini, thanks for putting in the time to share it.

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## human project

> I've been meaning to share this information with you all for a couple weeks now, but i've been pretty busy with the holidays and what not.
> 
> Anyhow, my personal research as well as my university studies have lead me to some interesting information on Anavar and its effects on HPTA suppression, and the real hard truth behind it. Anavar has always been touted as a very 'mild' compound. For the most part, it is. But too many people have for decades been using the world 'mild' to describe every effect and aspect of this compound. Anavar is NOT 'mild' in the realm of HPTA function, nor is it 'mild' in terms of its anabolic effects (it is actually quite the powerful anabolic steroid , perhaps more so than Anadrol in fact), however that's a story for another day. The focus of my quick post here is Anavar's effects on the HPTA since that is one of the most expounded descriptions of one of the areas Anavar is frequently said to be 'mild' in. Well, i'm here to tell you all that this is absolutely not the case. Anavar is just as suppressive as any anabolic steroid out there in existance.
> 
> In my program, shortly before the Christmas break, we actually covered Anavar!!! I was extremely excited (and surprised) to see that here in a pre-med university program, we're actually covering (albeit very briefly) an anabolic steroid and its effects on the endocrine system. As anyone familiar with life-sciences programs and med school programs knows, there is no such thing as an 'anabolic steroid' course or class. So I was pretty ecstatic, even though this was very brief. We covered some of its actions in muscle tissue and other tissues, we covered its medical applications and its beneficial results in patients suffering from trauma and its use as an osteoperosis medication. A guest speaker covered most of this with us, who is a former proffessor and is a current MD involved in research in the Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism. After everything was over, I had a chance to speak to him and ask him to share/exchange information concerning Anavar and such. Of course the guy is very busy and had only a half hour to spare with me, which I thought was very generous of him. So we discussed a whole ton of AAS-related topics, of which 30 minutes was just not enough time, and man was I blown away. But where Anavar is concerned, he told me quite a few eye-opening details, and provided me with a bunch of clinical studies to investigate for my own personal amusement.
> 
> It seems as though Anavar is commonly labelled by all of the gym bros for decades as 'mildly' suppressive to the HPTA, but there is only a sliver of truth to this. This seems to only be the case with the absolute lowest of medical prescription doses (such as 5mg daily administered to children). Bodybuilding doses, which is what we are all concerned with here, is a whole different ball game and in studies demonstrate very strong suppression of endogenous Testosterone production. The most prominent study I saw was one involving 6 young male test subjects that were administered Anavar had shown that after only 5 days of Anavar administration (at only 15mg/day), the Testosterone levels ofthese 6 subjects dropped DRASTICALLY by day 5 from 449ng/dl to 282ng/dl  a 63% reduction of Testosterone in 5 days(1) That is a massive drop after such a small period of time at a dose that isn't even considered a 'bodybuilding' dose. If this is what Anavar does at 15mg daily after 5 days of use, ask yourself what bodybuilding doses (30mg MINIMUM daily of Anavar) for weeks will end up doing?
> 
> This is a graph from the study conducted. It demonstrates total androgen concentration showing total serum Testosterone (lined areas) and Oxandrolone (black areas) concentrations in five young men on days 0, 3, and 5, Testosterone decreased significantly from days 0 and 3 to day 5 (P < 0.05).
> ...



Subscribed....

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## Turkish Juicer

> It's Primobolan that is so utterly weak that its practically useless for anyone.


Not at all true.

Good post in general though.

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## warmouth

> Whoa I didnt realize the sides were this bad especially the sleeplessness part. Makes me reconsider doing a trt dose of test and high anavar dose. Maybe i should just do normal 500mg test and var at the end. If sides get too bad then i can drop var and finish as test only cycle.


Everyone is different. For me, it was rough.

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## GirlyGymRat

Great info. I plan to run anavar and clen later this year. But I had no intention of running test. Should I reconsider???

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## human project

> I've been meaning to share this information with you all for a couple weeks now, but i've been pretty busy with the holidays and what not.
> 
> Anyhow, my personal research as well as my university studies have lead me to some interesting information on Anavar and its effects on HPTA suppression, and the real hard truth behind it. Anavar has always been touted as a very 'mild' compound. For the most part, it is. But too many people have for decades been using the world 'mild' to describe every effect and aspect of this compound. Anavar is NOT 'mild' in the realm of HPTA function, nor is it 'mild' in terms of its anabolic effects (it is actually quite the powerful anabolic steroid , perhaps more so than Anadrol in fact), however that's a story for another day. The focus of my quick post here is Anavar's effects on the HPTA since that is one of the most expounded descriptions of one of the areas Anavar is frequently said to be 'mild' in. Well, i'm here to tell you all that this is absolutely not the case. Anavar is just as suppressive as any anabolic steroid out there in existance.
> 
> In my program, shortly before the Christmas break, we actually covered Anavar!!! I was extremely excited (and surprised) to see that here in a pre-med university program, we're actually covering (albeit very briefly) an anabolic steroid and its effects on the endocrine system. As anyone familiar with life-sciences programs and med school programs knows, there is no such thing as an 'anabolic steroid' course or class. So I was pretty ecstatic, even though this was very brief. We covered some of its actions in muscle tissue and other tissues, we covered its medical applications and its beneficial results in patients suffering from trauma and its use as an osteoperosis medication. A guest speaker covered most of this with us, who is a former proffessor and is a current MD involved in research in the Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism. After everything was over, I had a chance to speak to him and ask him to share/exchange information concerning Anavar and such. Of course the guy is very busy and had only a half hour to spare with me, which I thought was very generous of him. So we discussed a whole ton of AAS-related topics, of which 30 minutes was just not enough time, and man was I blown away. But where Anavar is concerned, he told me quite a few eye-opening details, and provided me with a bunch of clinical studies to investigate for my own personal amusement.
> 
> It seems as though Anavar is commonly labelled by all of the gym bros for decades as 'mildly' suppressive to the HPTA, but there is only a sliver of truth to this. This seems to only be the case with the absolute lowest of medical prescription doses (such as 5mg daily administered to children). Bodybuilding doses, which is what we are all concerned with here, is a whole different ball game and in studies demonstrate very strong suppression of endogenous Testosterone production. The most prominent study I saw was one involving 6 young male test subjects that were administered Anavar had shown that after only 5 days of Anavar administration (at only 15mg/day), the Testosterone levels ofthese 6 subjects dropped DRASTICALLY by day 5 from 449ng/dl to 282ng/dl  a 63% reduction of Testosterone in 5 days(1) That is a massive drop after such a small period of time at a dose that isn't even considered a 'bodybuilding' dose. If this is what Anavar does at 15mg daily after 5 days of use, ask yourself what bodybuilding doses (30mg MINIMUM daily of Anavar) for weeks will end up doing?
> 
> This is a graph from the study conducted. It demonstrates total androgen concentration showing total serum Testosterone (lined areas) and Oxandrolone (black areas) concentrations in five young men on days 0, 3, and 5, Testosterone decreased significantly from days 0 and 3 to day 5 (P < 0.05).
> ...


This was a good read ato mini. I know everyone is different but I've used anavar at doses as high as 150mg per day and didnt really see much benefit added to my cycle.

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## bigsiv

> Great info. I plan to run anavar and clen later this year. But I had no intention of running test. Should I reconsider???


I'm not 100% on this but I wouldn't have thought anavar would 'shut down' test production of the female species. I would like to know myself if this is different for woman users concerning Anavar?????

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## Atomini

> Great info. I plan to run anavar and clen later this year. But I had no intention of running test. Should I reconsider???


The information in the study I presented has no relevance to you - you're a female. Testosterone production at the level of males is not essential for your well being or survival. This is one of the things that female AAS users can get away with in comparison with men. As you may already know, your body does produce very very very miniscule amounts of Testosterone for vital function, but these levels are literally 1/10th that of a male's natural production, and it is produced by your adrenal glands (primarily) rather than in the testes. A couple of other advantages women have over men when using AAS:

- Female AAS users require no need for Testosterone in their cycles (in fact it is highly advised that women do NOT use Testosterone due to the issue of strong androgenic effects leading to virilization, although it us up to the individual if they want to use stronger androgens - some women don't care if they get some virilization, and that's fine).

- No PCT required. PCT is meant for the restoration of natural endogenous Testosterone production in the testes. As a female, you don't have testicles (at least I would hope not), they are not vital for your well being and therefore no PCT is necessary for females.

I plan on covering all of this plus more in my future write-up on the female side of AAS use, the advantages/disadvantages females have over males when it comes to AAS use, and how women should go about using them.




> I'm not 100% on this but I wouldn't have thought anavar would 'shut down' test production of the female species. I would like to know myself if this is different for woman users concerning Anavar?????


You are absolutely correct. See my reply to GirlyGymRat above. Women can get away with certain things surrounding AAS use that we can't. But at the same time they face disadvantages that we don't. So there are some trade-offs to the advantages and disadvantages when it comes to AAS use for each gender.

----------


## human project

> You are absolutely correct. See my reply to GirlyGymRat above. Women can get away with certain things surrounding AAS use that we can't. But at the same time they face disadvantages that we don't. So there are some trade-offs to the advantages and disadvantages when it comes to AAS use for each gender.



Could you please elaborate a little on this?

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## bigsiv

Atomini I would guess for the casual female user of AAS test is not needed so for the top end female BB why do they need to use such strong androgens if the risk of virilisation is so high. In competitions would they not get 'marked down' for masculine features? Can they not reach past their potential without the use of the male hormone? 
(Sorry for the sidetrack)

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## warmouth

> Could you please elaborate a little on this?


He is doing a big write up on it at the moment. It is going to be good! Lets give him time on this one, so we wont spoil anything. I love these things!

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## human project

> Atomini I would guess for the casual female user of AAS test is not needed so for the top end female BB why do they need to use such strong androgens if the risk of virilisation is so high. In competitions would they not get 'marked down' for masculine features? Can they not reach past their potential without the use of the male hormone?
> (Sorry for the sidetrack)


Right... I know absolitely nothing about a woman's hormone but I do know a few high level female bodybuilders who use compounds such as tren ....

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## bigsiv

> He is doing a big write up on it at the moment. It is going to be good! Lets give him time on this one, so we wont spoil anything. I love these things!


Ha ha can't wait.........

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## bigsiv

> Right... I know absolitely nothing about a woman's hormone but I do know a few high level female bodybuilders who use compounds such as tren....


Wow ....... Wow .......

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## human project

> He is doing a big write up on it at the moment. It is going to be good! Lets give him time on this one, so we wont spoil anything. I love these things!


Cool thanks...... This site and its members are awesome. This place has taught me more in regards to steroids then any book I've read or even google...

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## Atomini

> Could you please elaborate a little on this?


Well, in a very small nutshell, here's an example of some of the advantages/disadvantages female and male AAS users have between them:

Male AAS users:
- Men do not need to worry about virilization issues with even the strongest androgens BUT they do need to worry about heightened Estrogen levels via aromatization
- Men can run cycles for longer periods of time than women can BUT a PCT is required afterwards to ensure proper HPTA function following a cycle

Female AAS users:
- Women do not need to worry about heightened Estrogen BUT they do need to worry about virilization from the androgens
- Women can run cycles without the need for PCT because for reasons i've already explained in my posts in this thread, endogenous Testosterone production at male levels is not required for well being, BUT women can not run cycles for anywhere near the length men are able to (female cycles are reccomended to be no longer than 4 - 6 weeks max in length, and depending on the substance used
- Although women do not need to deal with HPTA suppression, they must deal with a bunch of hormonal side effects that men are unfamiliar with, such as menstrual irregularities casued by AAS


Just thought i'd outline a few pros and cons for each gender here when it comes to AAS use. There are all kinds of other things as well, of course, such as the fact that many male AAS users must deal with testicular atrophy and gynecomastia (two things women don't need to worry about), but women need to deal with things like clitoral enlargement and _reduction_ of breast tissue. Women don't need to worry about PCT, running Testosterone in every cycle (or at all), but at the same time female choices in which AAS to use are very limited (IF they indeed care about virilization issues). I'll be expanding more on this in a write-up i'm going to be working on that focuses on female AAS use.




> Atomini I would guess for the casual female user of AAS test is not needed so for the top end female BB why do they need to use such strong androgens if the risk of virilisation is so high. In competitions would they not get 'marked down' for masculine features? Can they not reach past their potential without the use of the male hormone? 
> (Sorry for the sidetrack)


They don't need strong androgens. You need to understand the difference between the following:

- Female BODYBUILDERS who use AAS
- Female fitness/figure competitors who use AAS
- The average female in the gym who uses AAS just to be in better shape quicker

As you can probably tell, these are 3 different tiers of users and there are distinct goal differences between the 3. And within the differences in each person's goal, you also have the difference in what each person values, prioritizes, and how far they are willing to go to reach their goals.

Female bodybuilders are exactly as described: bodybuilders trying to be absolutely huge beyond any normal female's (or even many male's) goals. They are willing to put up with the virilization of heavy androgen use, such as Trenbolone . If Trenbolone helps them get to where they want to go and they don't mind the virilization that an androgenic rating of 500 will cause, then all the power to them - but that's their personal decision.

Female fitness/figure competitors are obviously not wanting to go as far as female bodybuilders. They want to be muscular, yes, but they want to still attain that femininity and would prefer to avoid virilization. Therefore, there aren't too many female figure competitors willing to venture into the dark territory of things like Trenbolone, Testosterone, Dianabol , etc. And most of them tend to stick to things like Winstrol , Primobolan , Anavar , etc. because they present very low androgenic ratings in comparison to their anabolic effects. Virilization is not usually a concern with these compounds as long as dosages are modest and cycle length kept short (hence why females cannot run the cycle lengths that men can).

The average female hottie in the gym trying to be in peak shape faster... well, after explaining the first two, I don't really need to explain this one in-depth, right? The average female AAS user in the gym doesn't want to go anywhere NEAR transforming into a male, and at the slightest sign of their voice cracking or signs of accellerated bodily hair growth, they are likely to terminate their cycles immediately. Low doses and short cycle lengths are usually what these women engage in since the average female AAS user, as I mentioned, is probably dealthly afraid of turning into a man...




> Right... I know absolitely nothing about a woman's hormone but I do know a few high level female bodybuilders who use compounds such as tren....


Likewise. I know a couple who use heavy things (for a female) like Trenbolone and Testosterone. But look at the words you used: "high level female bodybuilders". I don't think I need to say any more than that, as I just explained this answering the question right above this one. 'High level female bodybuilders' are certainly willing to take on the chance of virilization and use the heavy androgens to achieve the goals they want because they feel it's worth the effort. That's their decision - but it's not the same attitude that the average female AAS user in a gym just trying to look a little sexier every day has.

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## bigsiv

Thanx a lot Atomini great thread and great post hope Girlygymrat is still following great answers!!!

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## GirlyGymRat

i am following :Smilie: 



> Thanx a lot Atomini great thread and great post hope Girlygymrat is still following great answers!!!

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## GirlyGymRat

:Lips: 

did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place  :Wink: 




> I plan on covering all of this plus more in my* future write-up on the female side of AAS use*, the advantages/disadvantages females have over males when it comes to AAS use, and how women should go about using them.

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## bigsiv

> did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place


Not me  :Frown:  lol

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## Atomini

> did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place


Why thank you lol. I hadn't checked out the interview until your post reminded me just now. Sounds like a hell of a dinner lol!

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## GirlyGymRat

> Not me  lol


 :Lips:  lol

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## Bulkn

Good post A.
Im not surprised, first time i used anavar 75mg (along with a small amount of test and tren ) it amazed me.

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## GirlyGymRat

I am thrilled about and looking forward to your thread on aas for females. There r so many new gals asking for help on this topic plus all the guys will benefit for their SO!!!! 

Will u be posting it in this forum and as a sticky??? I pop in this forum infrequently so when would u suggest I pop back in? 




> Why thank you lol. I hadn't checked out the interview until your post reminded me just now. Sounds like a hell of a dinner lol!

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## AnabolicDoc

Hi Atomini,

That's some great info. In your original post and a subsequent one you mentioned that Anavar may be more anabolic than Anadrol . Can you elaborate on that?

Also, in your article you mentioned that in 5 days of Anavar supplementation, testosterone levels dropped from 449 ng/dl to 282 ng/dl. You stated that this is a 63% reduction. The math doesn't match up there, so I think you might have mistyped one of the numbers. I'm not being nit-picky, I just figured if ppl will be referencing this post that you'd want it to be as accurate as possible.

Looking forward to hearing about how it compares to Anadrol . . . thanks.

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## human project

> did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place


Hey I want dinner!!!!!

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## Atomini

> I am thrilled about and looking forward to your thread on aas for females. There r so many new gals asking for help on this topic plus all the guys will benefit for their SO!!!! 
> 
> Will u be posting it in this forum and as a sticky??? I pop in this forum infrequently so when would u suggest I pop back in?


It will likely be posted here and in the educational threads section. I'll probably just PM you to let you know it is done and to get you to let all the other females know and spread the word.




> Hi Atomini,
> 
> That's some great info. In your original post and a subsequent one you mentioned that Anavar may be more anabolic than Anadrol . Can you elaborate on that?
> 
> Also, in your article you mentioned that in 5 days of Anavar supplementation, testosterone levels dropped from 449 ng/dl to 282 ng/dl. You stated that this is a 63% reduction. The math doesn't match up there, so I think you might have mistyped one of the numbers. I'm not being nit-picky, I just figured if ppl will be referencing this post that you'd want it to be as accurate as possible.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing about how it compares to Anadrol . . . thanks.


Thanks for pointing out the math error, it looks like I did fumble on the numbers. It comes out to a 37% reduction in T levels, I just corrected it. That's still pretty significant in 5 days.

As far as it being just as strong or stronger of an anabolic than Anadrol, there's a couple of studies I checked out that demonstrate lean mass increases that are just as significant as Anadrol. The other big obvious factor here that anyone might notice is the fact that Anadrol possesses an anabolic rating of 320, and Anavar possesses a rating of approximately 322 - 630. That means Anavar is at LEAST 3x the strength of Testosterone , which is pretty significant if you ask me. The problem in comparing the two specifically is the fact that we know Anadrol exhibits anabolic effects that are non-receptor mediated, which serve to potentiate Anadrol's anabolic effects far greater than what might be indicated by its anabolic rating. Anadrol is also just one of those overall mysterious and weird substances that does things contrary to what it should (such as the high Estrogenic activity of Anadrol). But in any case, with an anabolic rating range of 322 - 630, it is pretty evident that Anavar is A LOT stronger than most people make it out to be. I think not enough people give Anavar the respect that it deserves in the department of lean mass gains. I think something can be said for this in the manner by which people experience incredible strength gains on Anavar, and those who have bulked up with Anavar have also experienced some eye popping gains (which are for the most part all lean in comparison to Anadrol). It's something to look into further.

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## GirlyGymRat

You sir have a deal  :Smilie: 




> It will likely be posted here and in the educational threads section. I'll probably just PM you to let you know it is done and to get you to let all the other females know and spread the word.

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## Atomini

> You sir have a deal


Speaking of which, where did the female members area of the forum go? I know it was accessible by females only, but I noticed it's not even around here to click on. Did Admin just hide the forum from all members but females?

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## GirlyGymRat

I believe that to be true. There is a female forum that would be well suited for your thread. I am sure admin can post it as a sticky for us in the female forum as well as in the educational location  :Smilie:  

It would be good if post includes a link that directs all comments and questions into the open forum that u could then answer. I have seen similar links done by Gbrice in his threads. That way there will be one place for incoming questions housed in the open forum in a common thread. Or u can ask admin for female access rights. Lol. 

BTW I  :Heart:  that u r doing this subject!!! 




> Speaking of which, where did the female members area of the forum go? I know it was accessible by females only, but I noticed it's not even around here to click on. Did Admin just hide the forum from all members but females?

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## jasc

Excellent thread Atomini

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## AnabolicDoc

> Thanks for pointing out the math error, it looks like I did fumble on the numbers. It comes out to a 37% reduction in T levels, I just corrected it. That's still pretty significant in 5 days.
> 
> As far as it being just as strong or stronger of an anabolic than Anadrol, there's a couple of studies I checked out that demonstrate lean mass increases that are just as significant as Anadrol. The other big obvious factor here that anyone might notice is the fact that Anadrol possesses an anabolic rating of 320, and Anavar possesses a rating of approximately 322 - 630. That means Anavar is at LEAST 3x the strength of Testosterone, which is pretty significant if you ask me. The problem in comparing the two specifically is the fact that we know Anadrol exhibits anabolic effects that are non-receptor mediated, which serve to potentiate Anadrol's anabolic effects far greater than what might be indicated by its anabolic rating. Anadrol is also just one of those overall mysterious and weird substances that does things contrary to what it should (such as the high Estrogenic activity of Anadrol). But in any case, with an anabolic rating range of 322 - 630, it is pretty evident that Anavar is A LOT stronger than most people make it out to be. I think not enough people give Anavar the respect that it deserves in the department of lean mass gains. I think something can be said for this in the manner by which people experience incredible strength gains on Anavar, and those who have bulked up with Anavar have also experienced some eye popping gains (which are for the most part all lean in comparison to Anadrol). It's something to look into further.


It's funny now that I think about it, I have a friend who used to do some pretty decent cycles. Now he does Anavar only cycles (30mg/day) for a few months before and into the early summer months. He actually gets some nice results, such as a significant drop in body fat (with diet only, no cardio) and impressive lean mass gains. He of course does resistance training as well.

I think he belongs to the small group of ppl whose HPTA doesn't shutdown in response to exogenous androgens. If you research male contraception (on PubMed), you will see that there is consistently a small group (under 20%) of ppl whose HPTA does not seem to shutdown in response to whatever androgen is given. I mention this bc I think it may be to some extent this minority who has good results with Anavar-only cycles who continues to popularize the misconception that Anavar is mild and does not shut you down.

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## Atomini

> It's funny now that I think about it, I have a friend who used to do some pretty decent cycles. Now he does Anavar only cycles (30mg/day) for a few months before and into the early summer months. He actually gets some nice results, such as a significant drop in body fat (with diet only, no cardio) and impressive lean mass gains. He of course does resistance training as well.
> 
> I think he belongs to the small group of ppl whose HPTA doesn't shutdown in response to exogenous androgens.* If you research male contraception (on PubMed), you will see that there is consistently a small group (under 20%) of ppl whose HPTA does not seem to shutdown in response to whatever androgen is given.* I mention this bc I think it may be to some extent this minority who has good results with Anavar-only cycles who continues to popularize the misconception that Anavar is mild and does not shut you down.


Yup and I am one of those people myself. I know that even if I do shut down or become suppressed, I bounce back very quickly following a cycle. I'm actually one of the rare 1% that doesn't totally shut down on cycle, even on things like Trenbolone . Had bloodwork done once while on cycle a few times and my body was producing LH and FSH and almost normal levels. Of course, everyone has their own sensitivity to HPTA shutdown (some shut down hard than others, faster than others, and some don't shut down at all).

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## AnabolicDoc

Is it really only about 1% that doesn't shutdown? I feel like I've seen higher numbers (but I could be wrong) in studies where high dose testosterone was being tested as a male contraceptive. In the study I recall about 15-20% retained fertility (which I think is a good marker of HPTA suppression). I'll have to double check. But I imagine the percentage of ppl who don't shutdown with AAS use would be even lower still.

But if you're certain that it's closer to 1% I'm inclined to believe you as you seem to know your stuff. For whatever its worth, I'm sure you'll make a great doctor (you're currently pre-med correct?).

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## Atomini

It is actually closer in reality to your stated numbers of the 20% range or so. My statement of 1% was just a generalized figure of speech to imply that it is a fairly small rare group of people who's HPTA is unaffected or affected to a lesser degree. I would love to see some more studies done on this, actually. I'd gladly volunteer to be a test subject, because I know even just anecdotally that I have to be one of these people, and my bloodwork shows it. I still always go through a PCT though. I'm sure you've heard of the occasional AAS user who claims to have never done a PCT and recovered just fine as well. Although their decision was stupid, those people are also likely a part of that rare group.

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## warhog

> I haven't had appetite issues on Anavar. I'm runnign 100mg daily of it with 200mg Trenbolone and 100mg testosterone weekly.


I most enjoy and appreciate the wealth of knowledge you have to offer since I've joined the forum Atomini. I have run Test e 500mg for 12 weeks with Anavar 80mg ed for the last 4 weeks on 3 seperate occasions, with Nolva 40/40/20/20 and Clomid 100/75/50/50 and HCG 500iu's a week for the 4 week long PCT I start 2 weeks after last pin of Test e, with success. I want to incorporate Trenbolone for my next cycle. I was planing on staying with the 80mg Anavar. Is it okay to keep this at the end of my cycle? I am aware that 500mg of Test is unnecessary due to the potency of Tren and will only be used to maintain adequate testosterone levels . Would you reccommend 200mg Tren a week for a first timer throughout the 12 weeks? Would Test Prop 100mg a week be better than Test E due to its short ester. I ask this because I am confused on when to start HCG. If i were to use Test Prop would I just start my standard PCT 3 days after last pin, or will the Tren ester length conflict? I know there are quite a few questions here and I appologize but I do value your generous knowledge. Thanks!

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## Metalject

Let me preface by saying I'm not trying to stir the pot, simply adding to the conversation. 

You're right, a lot of people mistakingly assume Anavar won't have a significant impact on test production. Somehow some believe it won't have any affect. However, when the claim that it's a mild steroid in this regard, there is some truth to that when you compare it to most anabolic steroids . For example, take the study used by William Llewllyn in his Anabolics book. 216 men given Anavar, here are the stats:

*Group 1:
20-40mg Anavar per day for 20wks
40% average reduction in serum testosterone levels 
LH decreased by 25-30%

*Group 2:
80mg Anavar per day for 20wks
66% average reduction in serum testosterone levels
LH decreased by 50+%

THe overall point, yes it's suppressive and the rate of suppression can definitely make this an issue if exogenous testosterone is not used. However, it's still far less suppression than most steroids and could be labeled mild when compared to most anabolic steroids . 

Anyway, just food for thought.

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## Atomini

Metalject,

Correct. However, now we are splitting hairs here. The problem with splitting hairs in topics like these is that kids and inexperienced users will grab any possible excuse they can find to justify running an improper Anavar -only cycle at bodybuilding doses. All anabolic steroids cause HPTA suppression/shutdown to varying degrees. The fact is that a 40% reduction in blood plasma Testosterone levels is significant. So is 66%. And if a study demonstrated a 20% reduction, I would still consider that a significant enough amount of suppression to warrant a warning to people as well. 

Fact of the matter is that a 40% or greater reduction in endogenous Testosterone secretion is not healthy for the body, and I don't believe it is valid justification for running Anavar on its own.

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## slimshady01

A,

I plan on running Var and 200 test "my trt dose" over the spring summer months at 100mg a day along with TUDCA.

I have 150 caps 50mg a piece.. Would 75 days be to long to run var straight.. Ive done it before but at 50mg with no problems, had blood work done 2 months later and all was perfect.

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## Atomini

No, 75 days (approx 10 weeks) is fine. I have personally run Anavar for 12 weeks before at 100mg/day (the first 8 of those 12 weeks I used TUDCA but you should never run more than 8 weeks of TUDCA or else it will negatively impact cholesterol profiles). So you're good to go, with the only suggestion being reduce Testosterone to 100mg/week. Anything above 100mg/week of Testosterone is NOT a normal physiological level that would constitute TRT doses. The human body on its own endogenously manufactures about 50 - 70mg per week on its own.

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## slimshady01

> No, 75 days (approx 10 weeks) is fine. I have personally run Anavar for 12 weeks before at 100mg/day (the first 8 of those 12 weeks I used TUDCA but you should never run more than 8 weeks of TUDCA or else it will negatively impact cholesterol profiles). So you're good to go, with the only suggestion being reduce Testosterone to 100mg/week. Anything above 100mg/week of Testosterone is NOT a normal physiological level that would constitute TRT doses. The human body on its own endogenously manufactures about 50 - 70mg per week on its own.


Thanks Atomini...

Ill try the 100mg a week.. But god that will be hard but honestly my body probably needs a break from the higher lvls as I've been on very long blasting and cruising.. I just fear that ugl is not as perfectly dosed as true pharma That being said I wouldn't want my 100mg of test being 75 etc... 

Why is it that some guys I know on true TRT through their endos are on 150-200mg a which only puts them in the normal high range... Where as others it may put in the high out of range.. 

I think I will get blood work done a few weeks into a 100mg of test a week and see where this puts my total test.

If I was to pin once a week on a Monday what day would be best to get my test taken.

Sorry to get off topic.. but thanks again you the man.

on a good side I wont need a AI and I wont be retaining any water while on that low of test and my Anavar .

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## Atomini

> Thanks Atomini...
> 
> Ill try the 100mg a week.. But god that will be hard but honestly my body probably needs a break from the higher lvls as I've been on very long blasting and cruising.. I just fear that ugl is not as perfectly dosed as true pharma That being said I wouldn't want my 100mg of test being 75 etc... 
> 
> Why is it that some guys I know on true TRT through their endos are on 150-200mg a which only puts them in the normal high range... Where as others it may put in the high out of range.. 
> 
> I think I will get blood work done a few weeks into a 100mg of test a week and see where this puts my total test.
> 
> If I was to pin once a week on a Monday what day would be best to get my test taken.
> ...


Hmm what ester Testosterone you using? I think you forgot to mention which one. I'm assuming since you said pinning on Monday, you're using Cypionate or Enanthate ? If so, then after a Monday pin, i'd get bloodwork done either Tuesday or Wednesday. Wednesday would probably be best. Blood plasma levels peak pretty quickly despite it being a long ester.




> Why is it that some guys I know on true TRT through their endos are on 150-200mg a which only puts them in the normal high range... Where as others it may put in the high out of range..


Reason why is simple: we don't live in a perfect world.

There is always a wasteage factor and such involved. Here are some of the prime reasons as to why one dose of Testosterone might not affect everyone's blood plasma levels the same way:

- Not all medicines, supplements, and drugs are accurately dosed down to the T. Even pharmaceutical grade producs will always be either slightly above or slightly below the stated dose. Remember, we don't live in a perfect world.
- There will always be some gear that doesn't get completely through from the syringe into the body. This is what I meant by 'wasteage factor'. It's like anything, you're never going to get 100% yield from anything, there will always be some loss. Once again, this isn't a perfect world.
- Some people's bodies respond differently. Plain and simple.
- The ester weight must be considered in the equation. The heaveri/longer the ester, the more % of a given mg of Testosterone will be taken up by the ester, leaving in reality much less Testosterone than you think is going to be injected. I talked about this in my thread on esters. While you think you may be injecting 100mg of Testosterone Cypionate , you might actually be getting 75mg in reality (this is why I always say 100mg is closer to a TRT dose, because of the amounts I mentioned the human body manufactures naturally come close considering the factors of wasteage, inaccuracies in dosing, and ester weight). Testosterone Propionate , because its ester is much shorter and ligher, allows more mg to be occupied by Testosterone than the longer estered variants.

I know it sounds depressing/sad, but the truth is you are never really getting as much AAS into your body as you think you are. There is always some loss. With that being said, don't fall into thinking that you're actually losing giant significant amounts. It's small, but small enough that TRT doses will show a notable difference.

----------


## slimshady01

great post..

Yes I will be running Cyp with my Var and will go with a once a week pin since I am used to EOD recently with prop so it will be a nice change. 

And I will shoot for a WED blood test to see where I am at and gauge from there.

Thanks again

----------


## Metalject

> Metalject,
> 
> Correct. However, now we are splitting hairs here. The problem with splitting hairs in topics like these is that kids and inexperienced users will grab any possible excuse they can find to justify running an improper Anavar -only cycle at bodybuilding doses. All anabolic steroids cause HPTA suppression/shutdown to varying degrees. The fact is that a 40% reduction in blood plasma Testosterone levels is significant. So is 66%. And if a study demonstrated a 20% reduction, I would still consider that a significant enough amount of suppression to warrant a warning to people as well. 
> 
> Fact of the matter is that a 40% or greater reduction in endogenous Testosterone secretion is not healthy for the body, and I don't believe it is valid justification for running Anavar on its own.


I agree, no need to forgo exogenous testosterone . And I understand what you're saying, I understand why people tend to want to show things a certain way in order to discourage younger guys. I'm just not one of those guys. I like for things to be presented black and white, no persuasion just hard info. From there people can make an educated decision and if they're too stupid to make an educated decision based on black and white info there's very little hope for them anyway. In this case, yep it's suppressive and can be significantly so...with bodybuilding doses it will always be significantly so. However, it's still milder than most, that's the black and white truth. Anyway, hopefully what I'm trying to say is understandable, lol!

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## Atomini

> I agree, no need to forgo exogenous testosterone. And I understand what you're saying, I understand why people tend to want to show things a certain way in order to discourage younger guys. I'm just not one of those guys. I like for things to be presented black and white, no persuasion just hard info. From there people can make an educated decision and if they're too stupid to make an educated decision based on black and white info there's very little hope for them anyway. In this case, yep it's suppressive and can be significantly so...with bodybuilding doses it will always be significantly so. However, it's still milder than most, that's the black and white truth. Anyway, hopefully what I'm trying to say is understandable, lol!


I'm totally with you on that point, my friend. I agree with presenting data simply as data in a neutral perspective. But I think that when it comes to clinical data as it pertains to AAS use, we have to then look at this stuff in a particular context and interpret the data in a particular manner. If something causes X% amount of endogenous Testosterone suppression, we should take that into consideration as to how it would affect the way we use it or cycle with it.

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## johnnymctrance

Great post

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## Times Roman

Agree. 

"Mild" is used to describe it's liver toxicity, AND as a comparative to other orals when it comes to strength/size gains.

But it will shut down your natty test production, same as any other steroid . 

Up to a certain daily dose, it will only partially shut you down. beyond that, natty test production is a memory..............

----------


## c eastwood

Atomini,
This was a very educational post.
Thank you.

----------


## webb459

> I've been meaning to share this information with you all for a couple weeks now, but i've been pretty busy with the holidays and what not.
> 
> Anyhow, my personal research as well as my university studies have lead me to some interesting information on Anavar and its effects on HPTA suppression, and the real hard truth behind it. Anavar has always been touted as a very 'mild' compound. For the most part, it is. But too many people have for decades been using the world 'mild' to describe every effect and aspect of this compound. Anavar is NOT 'mild' in the realm of HPTA function, nor is it 'mild' in terms of its anabolic effects (it is actually quite the powerful anabolic steroid , perhaps more so than Anadrol in fact), however that's a story for another day. The focus of my quick post here is Anavar's effects on the HPTA since that is one of the most expounded descriptions of one of the areas Anavar is frequently said to be 'mild' in. Well, i'm here to tell you all that this is absolutely not the case. Anavar is just as suppressive as any anabolic steroid out there in existance.
> 
> In my program, shortly before the Christmas break, we actually covered Anavar!!! I was extremely excited (and surprised) to see that here in a pre-med university program, we're actually covering (albeit very briefly) an anabolic steroid and its effects on the endocrine system. As anyone familiar with life-sciences programs and med school programs knows, there is no such thing as an 'anabolic steroid' course or class. So I was pretty ecstatic, even though this was very brief. We covered some of its actions in muscle tissue and other tissues, we covered its medical applications and its beneficial results in patients suffering from trauma and its use as an osteoperosis medication. A guest speaker covered most of this with us, who is a former proffessor and is a current MD involved in research in the Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism. After everything was over, I had a chance to speak to him and ask him to share/exchange information concerning Anavar and such. Of course the guy is very busy and had only a half hour to spare with me, which I thought was very generous of him. So we discussed a whole ton of AAS-related topics, of which 30 minutes was just not enough time, and man was I blown away. But where Anavar is concerned, he told me quite a few eye-opening details, and provided me with a bunch of clinical studies to investigate for my own personal amusement.
> 
> It seems as though Anavar is commonly labelled by all of the gym bros for decades as 'mildly' suppressive to the HPTA, but there is only a sliver of truth to this. This seems to only be the case with the absolute lowest of medical prescription doses (such as 5mg daily administered to children). Bodybuilding doses, which is what we are all concerned with here, is a whole different ball game and in studies demonstrate very strong suppression of endogenous Testosterone production. The most prominent study I saw was one involving 6 young male test subjects that were administered Anavar had shown that after only 5 days of Anavar administration (at only 15mg/day), the Testosterone levels ofthese 6 subjects dropped DRASTICALLY by day 5 from 449ng/dl to 282ng/dl - a 37% reduction of Testosterone in just 5 days(1). That is a massive drop after such a small period of time at a dose that isn't even considered a 'bodybuilding' dose. If this is what Anavar does at 15mg daily after 5 days of use, ask yourself what bodybuilding doses (30mg MINIMUM daily of Anavar) for weeks will end up doing?
> 
> This is a graph from the study conducted. It demonstrates total androgen concentration showing total serum Testosterone (lined areas) and Oxandrolone (black areas) concentrations in five young men on days 0, 3, and 5, Testosterone decreased significantly from days 0 and 3 to day 5 (P < 0.05).
> ...



Hey Atomini,

I'm new to this whole anavar thing. I haven't started takin it, however I was planning on doing my first cycle right away here. Just var. What are the implications of the reduction of testosterone? I've heard this can cause infertility, but that that is also easily fixed? What dose should I start with and should I be using something with it? And how long should my first cycle be? I've been reading through as many threads as possible trying to learn more. Please help!

----------


## ElectraMaddox

> Hey Atomini,
> 
> I'm new to this whole anavar thing. I haven't started takin it, however I was planning on doing my first cycle right away here. Just var. What are the implications of the reduction of testosterone? I've heard this can cause infertility, but that that is also easily fixed? What dose should I start with and should I be using something with it? And how long should my first cycle be? I've been reading through as many threads as possible trying to learn more. Please help!



Just an FYI everyone is going to want your stats,
diet with macros. height, age, weight, years training, est bodyfat, goals etc
if that's not in check you'll get guided their first...
If you're under 25 you prob won't get much advice
if your goals are attainable through lifting they'll guide you into the workout section if all that's in check they'll most likely tell you to run test with anavar and have PCT in check.... If you don't know what that is dont take the anavar until you learn all that stuff...

good luck

----------


## Atomini

> Hey Atomini,
> 
> I'm new to this whole anavar thing. I haven't started takin it, however I was planning on doing my first cycle right away here. Just var. What are the implications of the reduction of testosterone? I've heard this can cause infertility, but that that is also easily fixed? What dose should I start with and should I be using something with it? And how long should my first cycle be? I've been reading through as many threads as possible trying to learn more. Please help!


ElextraMaddox hit the nail right on the head. We need more information before being able to properly assess and advise your situation.

However, I will say this: your idea of using Anavar only is a bad one and is borderline absurd. Why are you electing to do an Anavar-only cycle? Fear of needles? Well, you're going to have to get over that if that is the case (and it usually is 95% of the time with those who wish to start with oral-only cycles. The exogenous Anavar that you are administering will totally shut down your body's own endogenous Testosterone production. This means that the essential and vital bodily functions that Testosterone and its metabolites govern are now being severely compromised. Now, you might ask the question "well, won't the Anavar take over for those functions? And won't it be better since Anavar is more advantageous in certain aspects than Testosterone?". The answer is: NO!

While Anavar might be more convenient to take, it might be considered "mild" in terms of its side effects, and while it might be unable to aromatize, that's all it pretty much has going for it. Anavar is a DHT derivative with strong anabolic effects - it is not a proper androgen for normal bodily function. And when I say 'normal bodily function', i'm talking about far more than your libido or fertility here. The human body and endocrine system is not that simple. *Testosterone is vital for proper libido function, it is a regulator of cognitive and physical energy, it regulates the population of thromboxane A2 receptors on megakaryocytes and platelets and hence platelet aggregation in humans, it is essential for proper mental and psychological function, and MANY MANY more functions and I cannot list all of them here.* Just because Anavar (or ANY other anabolic steroid ) is 'better than' Testosterone in one or two areas does not mean that it is better than it in every single aspect and function. Anavar does jack shit in many of those physiological functions that Testosterone governs.

This is why you require at least a normal physological level of Testosterone in your body during ANY cycle of ANYTHING.

----------


## Metalject

OK, this ^^^^^ (previous two replays) is the type of thing I've eluded to before. Now I'm not trying to be difficult, and before I go further let's try to remember posting on a message board is often like sending a text message...often the tone of voice can be lost or misinterpreted. My point, webb459 asked some very basic questions, regardless of what his stats are the answers to these questions will always be the same. 

Here's a hypothetical example:

A new guy comes to a message board and ask any of the following questions:

*Is Anavar toxic to the liver?
*What's the difference in testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate ? What about Sustanon ?
*I'm a little concerned about my cholesterol, which steroids are the most cholesterol friendly? 
*Why is Tren so androgenic ?
*I'm thinking about taking Dianabol but can it cause water retention? 

Now take any of those questions and whoever ask them his stats will not mean crap when it comes to the answers. If he's 5'5" of 6'5" the answers will be the same. Even if his 23 or 53 the answers to those questions are still the same. Hormones and how they function do not change because of someone's stats. Same goes for diet and training....if I eat like garbage and train like a retard Trenbolone is still the same Trenbolone and functions in the same way as if I ate perfectly and trained like a world class athlete. 

Anyway, I realize I'm ranting and that some will think I'm purposely being difficult but I'm not trying to be. It's kind of like a common almost unconscious attitude on many message boards is to give people as little info as possible until you (you not meaning anyone in particular) think they're ready for more information. It's like some believe they're holding precious information that they'll only hand out when they believe someone has earned it. It's kind of a pompous arrogant attitude and steroid .com is well-known for it. Anyway, it does get under my skin a little.

----------


## webb459

> ElextraMaddox hit the nail right on the head. We need more information before being able to properly assess and advise your situation.
> 
> However, I will say this: your idea of using Anavar only is a bad one and is borderline absurd. Why are you electing to do an Anavar-only cycle? Fear of needles? Well, you're going to have to get over that if that is the case (and it usually is 95% of the time with those who wish to start with oral-only cycles. The exogenous Anavar that you are administering will totally shut down your body's own endogenous Testosterone production. This means that the essential and vital bodily functions that Testosterone and its metabolites govern are now being severely compromised. Now, you might ask the question "well, won't the Anavar take over for those functions? And won't it be better since Anavar is more advantageous in certain aspects than Testosterone?". The answer is: NO!
> 
> While Anavar might be more convenient to take, it might be considered "mild" in terms of its side effects, and while it might be unable to aromatize, that's all it pretty much has going for it. Anavar is a DHT derivative with strong anabolic effects - it is not a proper androgen for normal bodily function. And when I say 'normal bodily function', i'm talking about far more than your libido or fertility here. The human body and endocrine system is not that simple. Testosterone is vital for proper libido function, it is a regulator of cognitive and physical energy, it regulates the population of thromboxane A2 receptors on megakaryocytes and platelets and hence platelet aggregation in humans, it is essential for proper mental and psychological function, and MANY MANY more functions and I cannot list all of them here. Just because Anavar (or ANY other anabolic steroid ) is 'better than' Testosterone in one or two areas does not mean that it is better than it in every single aspect and function. Anavar does jack shit in many of those physiological functions that Testosterone governs.
> 
> This is why you require at least a normal physological level of Testosterone in your body during ANY cycle of ANYTHING.


Atomini,

It was never a fear of needles. It's simply the simplicity and accessibility. I was given advice from a friend who did a var cycle to start and he ended up getting into injections shortly there after. He said it was a good place to start. Like I said, I know very little about Anabolics and just steroids in general. I'm learning as much as possible. I've done my homework, I've researched a lot. However, everyone has their own opinions and I'm looking for straight facts. As far as my stats, well they are all messed up right now. I just got out of the field with the military and therefore my diet and sleeping habits have gone to shit. And I've lost a solid 15 lbs. So, currently I am 5'8" and 140lbs. I'm 25 years old. And I understand how to eat and diet. I understand protein intake, carbs, lipids etc. My gf is a dietician. I've been legitimately training since I was 18 but was always active in the gym and other sports before then. My goals, I need strength, speed, agility. I need it all. I'm applying for spec ops and was hoping to find something to give me that edge over the competition. I'm not looking for someone to judge me. I'm looking for facts and kind assistance that will help me in my way. 

Thanks guys. I look forward to hearing from you all.

----------


## BBJT200

> OK, this ^^^^^ (previous two replays) is the type of thing I've eluded to before. Now I'm not trying to be difficult, and before I go further let's try to remember posting on a message board is often like sending a text message...often the tone of voice can be lost or misinterpreted. My point, webb459 asked some very basic questions, regardless of what his stats are the answers to these questions will always be the same. 
> 
> Here's a hypothetical example:
> 
> A new guy comes to a message board and ask any of the following questions:
> 
> *Is Anavar toxic to the liver?
> *What's the difference in testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate ? What about Sustanon ?
> *I'm a little concerned about my cholesterol, which steroids are the most cholesterol friendly? 
> ...


I agree with you here 100%, and it drives me nuts.

----------


## Atomini

> OK, this ^^^^^ (previous two replays) is the type of thing I've eluded to before. Now I'm not trying to be difficult, and before I go further let's try to remember posting on a message board is often like sending a text message...often the tone of voice can be lost or misinterpreted. My point, webb459 asked some very basic questions, regardless of what his stats are the answers to these questions will always be the same. 
> 
> Here's a hypothetical example:
> 
> A new guy comes to a message board and ask any of the following questions:
> 
> *Is Anavar toxic to the liver?
> *What's the difference in testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate ? What about Sustanon ?
> *I'm a little concerned about my cholesterol, which steroids are the most cholesterol friendly? 
> ...


Make no mistake, I TOTALLY agree with everything you just said. After all, I did answer his question directly, did I not?

The reason why I mentioned goals and stats is simply because when someone decides to use a particular anabolic steroid , it can be because they are mistaken in thinking that that particular anabolic steroid will be best suited for their particular goals when in reality, it isn't. How many times have people elected to use something like Winstrol -only because they said they just wanted to gain lean mass and cut up a bit at the same time? Testosterone can be used for that as well. This particular fellow here asked about the risks of using Anavar-only on endogenous Testosterone levels . It would help to know WHY he wanted to use Anavar in such a manner, and that is why I aaked that question in my post. But I did answer his question in the end, and in proper full detail. I am absolutely no fan of withholding information or advice without first getting the person's stats. Like you, I feel that stats or no stats the question should be answered because hormonal effects are no different between individuals.




> Atomini,
> 
> It was never a fear of needles. It's simply the simplicity and accessibility. I was given advice from a friend who did a var cycle to start and he ended up getting into injections shortly there after. He said it was a good place to start. Like I said, I know very little about Anabolics and just steroids in general. I'm learning as much as possible. I've done my homework, I've researched a lot. However, everyone has their own opinions and I'm looking for straight facts. As far as my stats, well they are all messed up right now. I just got out of the field with the military and therefore my diet and sleeping habits have gone to shit. And I've lost a solid 15 lbs. So, currently I am 5'8" and 140lbs. I'm 25 years old. And I understand how to eat and diet. I understand protein intake, carbs, lipids etc. My gf is a dietician. I've been legitimately training since I was 18 but was always active in the gym and other sports before then. My goals, I need strength, speed, agility. I need it all. I'm applying for spec ops and was hoping to find something to give me that edge over the competition. I'm not looking for someone to judge me. I'm looking for facts and kind assistance that will help me in my way. 
> 
> Thanks guys. I look forward to hearing from you all.


Keep doing your research, you'll get there eventually. When you do wrap your head around the idea of injectables like any form of Testosterone, you'll see that it is actually more simple and convenient, especially with long entered compounds. For example, 2x weekly injections are far more convenient than having to lug around pills everyday all day, dosing them multiple times per day.

----------


## webb459

> Make no mistake, I TOTALLY agree with everything you just said. After all, I did answer his question directly, did I not?
> 
> The reason why I mentioned goals and stats is simply because when someone decides to use a particular anabolic steroid , it can be because they are mistaken in thinking that that particular anabolic steroid will be best suited for their particular goals when in reality, it isn't. How many times have people elected to use something like Winstrol -only because they said they just wanted to gain lean mass and cut up a bit at the same time? Testosterone can be used for that as well. This particular fellow here asked about the risks of using Anavar -only on endogenous Testosterone levels . It would help to know WHY he wanted to use Anavar in such a manner, and that is why I aaked that question in my post. But I did answer his question in the end, and in proper full detail. I am absolutely no fan of withholding information or advice without first getting the person's stats. Like you, I feel that stats or no stats the question should be answered because hormonal effects are no different between individuals.
> 
> Keep doing your research, you'll get there eventually. When you do wrap your head around the idea of injectables like any form of Testosterone, you'll see that it is actually more simple and convenient, especially with long entered compounds. For example, 2x weekly injections are far more convenient than having to lug around pills everyday all day, dosing them multiple times per day.


I'm looking at doing an 8 week cycle at 80mg/day. Should I start a PCT right after that cycle? I plan on doing another cycle beginning in July as I want to complete a second cycle just before the SOF selection phase begins late August. Or should I just wait to do the PCT until after the second cycle? I'm looking at Nolvadex , is that a good PCT and where can I get it?

----------


## webb459

I'm also considering using pGH. Is this at all worthwhile when using var? Or is that even a good combination?

----------


## Atomini

> I'm looking at doing an 8 week cycle at 80mg/day. Should I start a PCT right after that cycle? I plan on doing another cycle beginning in July as I want to complete a second cycle just before the SOF selection phase begins late August. Or should I just wait to do the PCT until after the second cycle? I'm looking at Nolvadex, is that a good PCT and where can I get it?


I would suggest creating a separate thread for this, you will get more responses by doing that.

----------


## AnabolicDoc

I've known a few ppl who've done Anavar only cycles. With the exception of the one person who doesn't seem to shutdown from exogenous androgens and doesn't really need a PCT (or do one I think) - and he makes great gains at about 50mg of Anavar a day, which I have a hard time wrapping my head around - everyone else ends up losing any small gains they've made. And they ended up with a lengthy PCT bc they didn't think they needed HCG while taking the Anavar only.

It's just a bad idea and waste of money. If you're going to do it at least run a subq TRT protocol do the needles won't be a big deal. Either way, if you do proceed plz use hcg low dose a few times a week and do PCT.

----------


## romanos83539

Great post and discussion.... looking forward to hear more on the subjects

----------


## Wtgrantham

> Yes, I implore you and anyone else to reference this thread/information to those common posts you always see about Anavar being 'mild', especially the posts made by kids who think that using Anavar because it's 'mild' will prevent any potential HPTA damage.
> 
> 
> 
> I always advocate a TRT dose with anything and everything if you're stacking stuff with Testosterone. There are several benefits to doing this, such as controlling Estrogen without the use of an AI, and allowing yourself to see the sole benefits from the primary anabolic you are using as opposed to Testosterone. I have nothing against using higher doses of Testosterone (such as 500mg weekly) stacked with other things like Anavar, but you must be aware that with the higher dose of Testosterone, you are going to have more aromatization and you will have to be prepared to take the steps necessary to deal with that.


This was the approach I was taking, running my TRT dose of 60 mg subq twice a week where my estrogen ran in the low 30s with no AI then I started taking 50 mg anavar every day and had a blood test 10 days in. Guess what? My estrogen had skyrocketed up into the 70s. Completely unexpected to me as my estrogen was under control and anavar does not aromatize. What I theorize is that since anavar is a DHT derivative it stopped my test from turning into DHT and my body recognized it as having too much testosterone so it all started aromatizing to estrodiol. I immediately started an AI and some Nolva but had a hard time getting on top of it so I stopped the anavar. Next time I will start an AI right away.

----------


## slimshady01

> This was the approach I was taking, running my TRT dose of 60 mg subq twice a week where my estrogen ran in the low 30s with no AI then I started taking 50 mg anavar every day and had a blood test 10 days in. Guess what? My estrogen had skyrocketed up into the 70s. Completely unexpected to me as my estrogen was under control and anavar does not aromatize. What I theorize is that since anavar is a DHT derivative it stopped my test from turning into DHT and my body recognized it as having too much testosterone so it all started aromatizing to estrodiol. I immediately started an AI and some Nolva but had a hard time getting on top of it so I stopped the anavar. Next time I will start an AI right away.


Interesting post.

----------


## Atomini

> This was the approach I was taking, running my TRT dose of 60 mg subq twice a week where my estrogen ran in the low 30s with no AI then I started taking 50 mg anavar every day and had a blood test 10 days in. Guess what? My estrogen had skyrocketed up into the 70s. Completely unexpected to me as my estrogen was under control and anavar does not aromatize. What I theorize is that since anavar is a DHT derivative it stopped my test from turning into DHT and my body recognized it as having too much testosterone so it all started aromatizing to estrodiol. I immediately started an AI and some Nolva but had a hard time getting on top of it so I stopped the anavar. Next time I will start an AI right away.


Right off the bat i'll say that your hypothesis doesn't sound like it makes any sense to me since that isn't exactly how the HPTA works. The body doesn't recognize DHT levels and try to compensate by blocking/preventing 5AR activity and instead increasing aromatase activity to compensate. That isn't how things work. I think there are other factors at play that you haven't deduced logically before coming to a proper conclusion. Instead, you seem to just be jumping to conclusions here that are furthermore incorrect in regards to how the endocrine system works. Reduction of Testosterone into DHT occurs only in specific tissues where there is increased 5AR activity (prostate, skin, scalp, and other select tissues). Same thing with aromatization and aromatase. I have a few questions first in regards to ruling out any other possible factors, though:

1. Was the Anavar you used pharmaceutical grade or UGL?
2. Was the Testosterone you used pharmaceutical grade or UGL?
3. Is this TRT prescribed, or self-administered TRT?
4. How long were you on TRT before throwing Anavar into the picture?
5. Any other substances administered aside from Testosterone and/or Anavar?

----------


## Wtgrantham

> Right off the bat i'll say that your hypothesis doesn't sound like it makes any sense to me since that isn't exactly how the HPTA works. The body doesn't recognize DHT levels and try to compensate by blocking/preventing 5AR activity and instead increasing aromatase activity to compensate. That isn't how things work. I think there are other factors at play that you haven't deduced logically before coming to a proper conclusion. Instead, you seem to just be jumping to conclusions here that are furthermore incorrect in regards to how the endocrine system works. Reduction of Testosterone into DHT occurs only in specific tissues where there is increased 5AR activity (prostate, skin, scalp, and other select tissues). Same thing with aromatization and aromatase. I have a few questions first in regards to ruling out any other possible factors, though:
> 
> 1. Was the Anavar you used pharmaceutical grade or UGL?
> 2. Was the Testosterone you used pharmaceutical grade or UGL?
> 3. Is this TRT prescribed, or self-administered TRT?
> 4. How long were you on TRT before throwing Anavar into the picture?
> 5. Any other substances administered aside from Testosterone and/or Anavar?


Not trying to be an "expert" on the endocrine system with my theory, just trying to make some sense of it.
1 anavar was UGL
2 test is Cyp and pharm
3 TRT is Dr prescribed
4 probably about 7 or 8 months on TRT completely locked in except RBC production hard to control, donating blood once per month and still not keeping it down
5. No other substances except supplements, fish oil, multi, zinc, magnesium, DHEA, D3, HCG 

With no better explanation maybe the anavar is not anavar?
Was on the anavar for about 17 days before I stopped and really wasn't feeling like I was getting any results from it so didn't really mind stopping. No vascularity change no real strength increase.
Liver enzymes were elevated after 10 days on the blood work

----------


## Atomini

> Not trying to be an "expert" on the endocrine system with my theory, just trying to make some sense of it.
> 1 anavar was UGL
> 2 test is Cyp and pharm
> 3 TRT is Dr prescribed
> 4 probably about 7 or 8 months on TRT completely locked in except RBC production hard to control, donating blood once per month and still not keeping it down
> 5. No other substances except supplements, fish oil, multi, zinc, magnesium, DHEA, D3, HCG 
> 
> *With no better explanation maybe the anavar is not anavar*?
> Was on the anavar for about 17 days before I stopped and really wasn't feeling like I was getting any results from it so didn't really mind stopping. No vascularity change no real strength increase.
> Liver enzymes were elevated after 10 days on the blood work


The Anavar was DEFINITELY not Anavar. It is common knowledge that 85% of UGLs do not put Anavar in their Anavar. Usually they will either just put Dianabol in, or put Dianabol with a low dose of Arimidex in the tablets to simulate Anavar. Unless you get your UGl Anavar tested in a lab, there is no way of knowing, and the UGL can do whatever they want and tell you the product is whatever they put on the label. It makes sense considering your Estrogen skyrocketed as soon as you took the Anavar. Real Anavar does not do that in any way, shape, or form. You probably had something else in those tablets. What it really was is anyone's guess, but these are the facts of the UGL world.

DHEA is also known to raise Estrogen levels, but I am willing to bet money that it was the supposed Anavar.

Please see this thread, it will open your eyes to the truth in regards to UGL products: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t=black+market

----------


## Bonaparte

> The Anavar was DEFINITELY not Anavar. *It is common knowledge that 85% of UGLs do not put Anavar in their Anavar.* Usually they will either just put Dianabol in, or put Dianabol with a low dose of Arimidex in the tablets to simulate Anavar. Unless you get your UGl Anavar tested in a lab, there is no way of knowing, and the UGL can do whatever they want and tell you the product is whatever they put on the label. It makes sense considering your Estrogen skyrocketed as soon as you took the Anavar. Real Anavar does not do that in any way, shape, or form. You probably had something else in those tablets. What it really was is anyone's guess, but these are the facts of the UGL world.
> 
> DHEA is also known to raise Estrogen levels, but I am willing to bet money that it was the supposed Anavar.
> 
> Please see this thread, it will open your eyes to the truth in regards to UGL products: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t=black+market


Well, it also common knowledge now that you make up statistics on the spot.

----------


## largerthannormal

Atomini

this thread got long and I may have missed it, 
I have a prop / tren / var cycle coming up. 

My var is made from a close freind who has access to these compounds for research purposes. 

My question is, he puts them in 150mg capsules, I of course would be happy to run half that. ( what is the half life i guess i could ask?)

I know var is a ED type deal, Is there an easy way to break this up? or do 150 EOD? i really dont want to do that much in one day. but I dont want to be diceing out powder everyday either... 

Sorry if I hijacked a little....

----------


## Atomini

> Well, it also common knowledge now that you make up statistics on the spot.


Have you seen the thread I linked to and the content linked to in it? 80% of the crap on the AAS black market is either counterfeit, or UGL crap that doesn't contain what is advertised on the label. There have been a few lab analysis performed on UGL gear that has found this type of thing to be the case. The information is in the video within that thread, check it out.




> Atomini
> 
> this thread got long and I may have missed it, 
> I have a prop / tren / var cycle coming up. 
> 
> My var is made from a close freind who has access to these compounds for research purposes. 
> 
> My question is, he puts them in 150mg capsules, I of course would be happy to run half that. ( what is the half life i guess i could ask?)
> 
> ...


It is difficult to break up capsules unless you take the powder out of the capsules yourself, and have a microscale to weigh it on to obtain the desired dose.

----------


## AnabolicDoc

> Atomini
> 
> this thread got long and I may have missed it,
> I have a prop / tren / var cycle coming up.
> 
> My var is made from a close freind who has access to these compounds for research purposes.
> 
> My question is, he puts them in 150mg capsules, I of course would be happy to run half that. ( what is the half life i guess i could ask?)
> 
> ...



Anavar has a short half life, around 8 hours, so you shouldn't take it eod.

You can empty 1 capsule into a small open vial and then use a 1ml oral syringe to then add 1ml of water to the vial. Swirl the vial, then draw up 0.5ml and ingest it and save the other 0.5ml for the next day. Repeat this eod, so this way you don't have to worry about Anavar's stability in water (I don't know if it is stable in water or not, but 24 hours won't be an issue either way).

----------


## AnabolicDoc

Sorry, just realized that you wanted an answer from Atomini.

----------


## Atomini

> Sorry, just realized that you wanted an answer from Atomini.


lol it's alright, I don't care if someone answers a question for someone that was originally directed towards me. There are plenty of helpful and very knowledgeable members here aside from myself and I encourage others to help out just as much.

----------


## Brick

Medistar gtg?

----------


## Ole kristian

great post! i love how this forum is so focused on studys and science!

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## largerthannormal

LOL no prob bro, I just knew from his posts he was knowledgeable with it. Anyones free to answer. IM not one of those guys who says " for knowledgeable members only " lol 

Thanks for your reply




> Sorry, just realized that you wanted an answer from Atomini.

----------


## largerthannormal

I will have to get one, thanks Atomini




> Have you seen the thread I linked to and the content linked to in it? 80% of the crap on the AAS black market is either counterfeit, or UGL crap that doesn't contain what is advertised on the label. There have been a few lab analysis performed on UGL gear that has found this type of thing to be the case. The information is in the video within that thread, check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> It is difficult to break up capsules unless you take the powder out of the capsules yourself, and have a microscale to weigh it on to obtain the desired dose.

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## largerthannormal

> Anavar has a short half life, around 8 hours, so you shouldn't take it eod.
> 
> You can empty 1 capsule into a small open vial and then use a 1ml oral syringe to then add 1ml of water to the vial. Swirl the vial, then draw up 0.5ml and ingest it and save the other 0.5ml for the next day. Repeat this eod, so this way you don't have to worry about Anavar's stability in water (I don't know if it is stable in water or not, but 24 hours won't be an issue either way).


good call, ill give this a whirl! hope it doesnt break down or anything to that means?

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## AnabolicDoc

I know that sometimes there are stability issues with certain meds/compounds but I'm certain it will be fine for a 24 hour period. This is commonly practiced in medicine when patients cannot afford to get an individualized smaller dose from the compounding pharmacy and only have available to them generic drug doses. As long as the medicine is not a controlled release formulation, it is not a problem to dissolve it in water for a short period. 

You might want to consider emptying the 150mg capsule into 1ml of water and then taking 0.25ml twice per day bc anavar had such a short half life.

Please let me know how it works out.

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## Atomini

> I know that sometimes there are stability issues with certain meds/compounds but I'm certain it will be fine for a 24 hour period. This is commonly practiced in medicine when patients cannot afford to get an individualized smaller dose from the compounding pharmacy and only have available to them generic drug doses. As long as the medicine is not a controlled release formulation, it is not a problem to dissolve it in water for a short period. 
> 
> You might want to consider emptying the 150mg capsule into 1ml of water and then taking 0.25ml twice per day bc anavar had such a short half life.
> 
> Please let me know how it works out.


The question is how water soluble is Anavar? Hmmm.

I have used liquid Anavar (oral use) in the past, but it was in an oil-based solution, so.... this sounds interesting.

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## largerthannormal

TRIED IT LAST NIGHT... 

VAR is NOT soluble in water. DO NOT ATTEMPT lol

I think im going to try veg oil.

Or ive heard 190 proof alcohol...

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## AnabolicDoc

I wasn't expecting it to be stable. I thought it would suspend in the water. This could be mixed and immediately divided in half by way of an oral syringe.

Liquid orals are often sold that are not soluble, both by pharmaceutical companies, compounding pharmacies and UGLs. In these cases, you're supposed to shake well before use, which is often printed on the label or bottle somewhere.

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## Atomini

Yeah I didn't suspect it to be. Anabolic steroids are fats themselves, and are highly lipophilic. I would suggest trying to mix it into an oil or fat based solvent.

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## largerthannormal

> I wasn't expecting it to be stable. I thought it would suspend in the water. This could be mixed and immediately divided in half by way of an oral syringe.
> 
> Liquid orals are often sold that are not soluble, both by pharmaceutical companies, compounding pharmacies and UGLs. In these cases, you're supposed to shake well before use, which is often printed on the label or bottle somewhere.


Agreed! My liquid cialis is like that " must shake well" also has a greatly noticable taste of alcohol




> Yeah I didn't suspect it to be. Anabolic steroids are fats themselves, and are highly lipophilic. I would suggest trying to mix it into an oil or fat based solvent.


I will give this a whirl!

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## Bonaparte

You have to suspend it in something thick. It will sink like sand in water or alcohol.

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## largerthannormal

Ive heard a couple guys do it in alcohol with a heat/reheat process or something to that extent. But Ill give the oil thing a try tonight.. I have enough chems with alcohol in it... lol trying to kick that habit!! 

I agree should hold better in oil... wonder if a ml of oil is okay to ingest everyday? 

i feel bad I should have just started my own thread... sorry Atomini.. ill shut it..........

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## jimmyinkedup

Humco oral suspension vehicle +10%ea and if you want flavor with mio. 
You could also believe it or not use corn syrup and 20% ea as well.

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## Atomini

> Humco oral suspension vehicle +10%ea and if you want flavor with mio. 
> You could also believe it or not use corn syrup and 20% ea as well.


I really need to pick your brains some time about the delivery vehicles and such. I remember in the Noopept thread you mentioned there was some kind of sublingual delivery component one could use to deliver compounds sublingually. I never knew about it or what it was. I need to look into this stuff.

----------


## jimmyinkedup

> I really need to pick your brains some time about the delivery vehicles and such. I remember in the Noopept thread you mentioned there was some kind of sublingual delivery component one could use to deliver compounds sublingually. I never knew about it or what it was. I need to look into this stuff.


Ill gladly share anything I know. Still learning myself.

----------


## BIGGUNSWANTED

very informative

----------


## largerthannormal

great info as usual Jimmy!




> Humco oral suspension vehicle +10%ea and if you want flavor with mio. 
> You could also believe it or not use corn syrup and 20% ea as well.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bringing this back to the forefront..

----------


## AnabolicDoc

> Humco oral suspension vehicle +10%ea and if you want flavor with mio.
> You could also believe it or not use corn syrup and 20% ea as well.


There's also Ora-Plus, an oral suspension vehicle. Great White Peptides has it for sale. I'm sure you can shop around.

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## largerthannormal

Sounds good

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## Atomini

> Bump..


We getting a lot of kids asking about Anavar -only cycles "because its mild on the HPTA" lately, or what? lol

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## largerthannormal

Yep, agreed!! or the guys who think they can use it as a bridge

not a fan of bridges in the first place, not to mention with anavar ..

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## buckydees

> Whoa I didnt realize the sides were this bad especially the sleeplessness part. Makes me reconsider doing a trt dose of test and high anavar dose. Maybe i should just do normal 500mg test and var at the end. If sides get too bad then i can drop var and finish as test only cycle.


Hi, 

Atomni can I ask why you've just explained that anavar is bad for you and not mild but your taking it yourself? Also I am looking to cut up and have a course of anavar from a while ago what do you recommend I stack it with?

Thanks

----------


## AnabolicDoc

> Ive heard a couple guys do it in alcohol with a heat/reheat process or something to that extent. But Ill give the oil thing a try tonight.. I have enough chems with alcohol in it... lol trying to kick that habit!!
> 
> I agree should hold better in oil... wonder if a ml of oil is okay to ingest everyday?
> 
> i feel bad I should have just started my own thread... sorry Atomini.. ill shut it..........


What did you end up doing with the Anavar as far as splitting the dose of the capsule?

----------


## largerthannormal

I still haven't came to a conclusion , I may do a suspension vehical. They are cheap enough

I may just pop each cap n split it.really didn't want to do that because I wanted to does @ 100. 

I'll keep you posted!

----------


## AnabolicDoc

I think you should look into either oral suspension vehicle that I recommended or the one that Jimmy did. Consider all options - it doesn't hurt to take a look online.

----------


## Atomini

> Hi, 
> 
> Atomni can I ask why you've just explained that anavar is bad for you and not mild but your taking it yourself? Also I am looking to cut up and have a course of anavar from a while ago what do you recommend I stack it with?
> 
> Thanks


First of all, when did I ever say that Anavar is bad for you?

I am not currently taking Anavar.

I did run a recent cycle that included Anavar, which was simply for the purpose of being able to say i've tried it for the experience. I will never use it, or any orals, ever again. Oral anabolic steroids should be avoided at all costs if possible.

----------


## tigerspawn

Thanks Atomini very informative thread.

----------


## mr.slippyfist69

Yup...a kid( and I mean 20 yo) at my gym is running it solo and says its the safest one to run alone. Bet I'll be showing him that very telling graph you have posted. Thank you

----------


## slimshady01

> First of all, when did I ever say that Anavar is bad for you?
> 
> I am not currently taking Anavar.
> 
> I did run a recent cycle that included Anavar, which was simply for the purpose of being able to say i've tried it for the experience. I will never use it, or any orals, ever again. Oral anabolic steroids should be avoided at all costs if possible.


I'm starting my var may first with 125 mg a test .

What didnt you like bro? I love var.

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## buckydees

> First of all, when did I ever say that Anavar is bad for you?
> 
> I am not currently taking Anavar.
> 
> I did run a recent cycle that included Anavar, which was simply for the purpose of being able to say i've tried it for the experience. I will never use it, or any orals, ever again. Oral anabolic steroids should be avoided at all costs if possible.


Well you've said that it isn't as safe as people think and it can damage you etc, but if you read up on anavar on Wikipedia It contradicts what you said, and I've run anavar only cycles twice at 100 mg and had great results

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## Atomini

> I'm starting my var may first with 125 mg a test .
> 
> What didnt you like bro? I love var.


I *LOVED* Anavar !! I didn't hate or dislike it at all. It is something I would indeed consider running again, but like I said, I will stick to injectables exclusively as much as I can.




> Well you've said that it isn't as safe as people think and it can damage you etc, but if you read up on anavar on Wikipedia It contradicts what you said, and I've run anavar only cycles twice at 100 mg and had great results


Does Wikipedia mention anything about cholesterol issues resultant from oral anabolic steroids ? Does it mention anything related to the excessive androgenic activity in the hepatic system that leads to liver damage? No.

While Wikipedia is a decent source of information, especially since references are now used in its writings, I regard it as a woefully inefficient source of information for any compound (or any anabolics in general). It is by no means an extensive resource for researching any specific compound (in this case, Anavar).

Oral anabolic steroids , and it doesn't matter which ones, are among the WORST offenders for negative alterations in cholesterol. Hepatotoxicity is not the _ONLY_ reason why the medical establishment places reccomended windows/timeframes of use on oral anabolic steroids, including Anavar. Altered cholesterol levels in the negative for extended periods of weeks or months wreaks horrid damage on the body. Hepatotoxicity is among the smallest concerns for most orals except for the most hepatotoxic ones, actually. The negative alterations in cholesterol values are astronomical compared to injectable anabolics, of which many of them barely alter cholesterol levels, if at all, when used judiciously.

I find that too many people either ignore or downplay the issue of cholesterol alterations (whether or not it is an oral or injectable AAS), and this is something that really needs to be taken more seriously by people. Especially considering the fact that many will not be getting regular bloodwork to monitor lipid profiles during cycles. You might not be able to _feel_ negative cholesterol alterations, you might not be able to detect the damages and plaque buildup it causes in your arteries, but it damn well is sure to be doing that if your levels are excessively out of whack, and orals tend to do this quite a bit.

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## buckydees

> I LOVED Anavar !! I didn't hate or dislike it at all. It is something I would indeed consider running again, but like I said, I will stick to injectables exclusively as much as I can.
> 
> Does Wikipedia mention anything about cholesterol issues resultant from oral anabolic steroids ? Does it mention anything related to the excessive androgenic activity in the hepatic system that leads to liver damage? No.
> 
> While Wikipedia is a decent source of information, especially since references are now used in its writings, I regard it as a woefully inefficient source of information for any compound (or any anabolics in general). It is by no means an extensive resource for researching any specific compound (in this case, Anavar).
> 
> Oral anabolic steroids , and it doesn't matter which ones, are among the WORST offenders for negative alterations in cholesterol. Hepatotoxicity is not the ONLY reason why the medical establishment places reccomended windows/timeframes of use on oral anabolic steroids, including Anavar. Altered cholesterol levels in the negative for extended periods of weeks or months wreaks horrid damage on the body. Hepatotoxicity is among the smallest concerns for most orals except for the most hepatotoxic ones, actually. The negative alterations in cholesterol values are astronomical compared to injectable anabolics, of which many of them barely alter cholesterol levels, if at all, when used judiciously.
> 
> I find that too many people either ignore or downplay the issue of cholesterol alterations (whether or not it is an oral or injectable AAS), and this is something that really needs to be taken more seriously by people. Especially considering the fact that many will not be getting regular bloodwork to monitor lipid profiles during cycles. You might not be able to feel negative cholesterol alterations, you might not be able to detect the damages and plaque buildup it causes in your arteries, but it damn well is sure to be doing that if your levels are excessively out of whack, and orals tend to do this quite a bit.


Fantastic you've answered my questions perfectly !! Many thanks

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## JSumma

Atomini and other astute peeps,

Thoughts on running Var at 75mg for weeks 5-12 on along with test prop 1-12? This would be a first cycle. The test would be 100 eod. Goal is massive strength increase with as little bulk/LBM as possible.

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## Atomini

I think your idea is sound and you could do it. When I ran Anavar , I did it at 100mg/day for 12 weeks. The first 8 of those 12 weeks, I used TUDCA to assist liver function, though. Anavar is an amazing compound for strength gains through my experience.

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## JSumma

> I think your idea is sound and you could do it. When I ran Anavar, I did it at 100mg/day for 12 weeks. The first 8 of those 12 weeks, I used TUDCA to assist liver function, though. Anavar is an amazing compound for strength gains through my experience.


So, per your sticky on tren , would you say you prefer a low dose of tren to var even at this dosage. Hmmm...maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges as you ran Var for first cycle. Regardless, that tren sounds like a strong and versatile compound. 

On an unrelated note, used to go to Canada A LOT when I dated a girl up there. She was all fancy smancy from the Bridle Path  :Smilie: . Miss some GTA.

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## Atomini

> So, per your sticky on tren , would you say you prefer a low dose of tren to var even at this dosage. Hmmm...maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges as you ran Var for first cycle. Regardless, that tren sounds like a strong and versatile compound. 
> 
> On an unrelated note, used to go to Canada A LOT when I dated a girl up there. She was all fancy smancy from the Bridle Path . Miss some GTA.


Yes, I would definitely reccomend a low-moderate dose of Trenbolone , perhaps 300 - 400mg weekly over a 700mg weekly (100mg/day) dose of Anavar . I do believe that Trenbolone is far more versatile than Anavar in many respects.

Sounds like you know how to pick the right Canadian girls! lol

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## MickeyKnox

> So, per your sticky on tren , would you say you prefer a low dose of tren to var even at this dosage. Hmmm...maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges as you ran Var for first cycle. Regardless, that tren sounds like a strong and versatile compound. 
> 
> On an unrelated note, used to go to Canada A LOT when I dated a girl up there. She was all fancy smancy from the *Bridle Path* . Miss some GTA.


She was loaded! You should have hung on to that.  :Smilie:

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## Bonaparte

Nevermind...

----------


## lovbyts

bump

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## dumpslugzz

Do juice its officially on season!!!

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## dumpslugzz

May june july august = the p ussy cycle!!!!! Cuz you just go on it and you get p ussy

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## Brazensol

Couple of things for my own clarification if you don't mind. I am on trt taking 130mgs test cyp per week (divided in two doses of 65mgs each). I am 51 years old and 27% bf. Other than the bf I am healthy. If I read correctly I can run anavar (80-100mgs/day) along side my test cyp for 6-8 weeks and it will help both with fat loss and lean gain. If I have this right then this sounds like the perfect noob starter cycle. Also read it helps increase hgh and might this also be helpful in healing some old lifting injuries (tendonosis)?

Would using otc liver support sups (like milk thistle) be sufficient for liver health or is something stronger needed? Anavar being an oral steroid is the only thing that really makes me a bit nervous. My last liver panel looked great and I just had a new one done but am still waiting on the results. If everything still looks good I am very interested in running this cycle.

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## MickeyKnox

I would not begin this cycle until you are at least around 15% BF or less. This is very important Brazensol. 

I recommend you adjust your diet and reduce your Body Fat to around 15% *before you begin your cycle.* This will also reduce your likelihood of experiencing unwanted sides attributed to high E2 levels like, Erectile Dysfunction (ED), Acne, Raised Blood Pressure, Increased Heart Rate, Bloating, Cardio vascular Issues, Mood swings, changes to your Cholesterol Factors (HDL-C, LDL-C, TG, TC)...ect.

Excess fatty tissue is a huge proponent of Estrogen. "Adipose tissue can contribute significantly to the circulating pool of estrogens." You want your BF to be as low as possible before you begin your proposed cycle - very important! Read this clinical study…Estrogen production and action. [J Am Acad Dermatol. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

And then head over to the Nutritional Forums and the Specialists in there will assist you in developing a solid diet that will reflect your intended goals and slim you down to a more suitable and safe BF%.

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## Brazensol

I see. I am working very hard to get the bf down and have knocked off 5% already. I must have misunderstood some earlier comments about anavar being able to be used to help "burn" fat even in those over the 15% level. I am somewhat disappointed but will contunue to lose the fat so I can do it right. I estimate (at least) 3 more months (being optimistic) before I can hit that magic 15% bf!

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## belva

I'm glad I came to this post as well  :Smilie:  gret informations. bump...

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## MickeyKnox

> I see. I am working very hard to get the bf down and have knocked off 5% already. I must have misunderstood some earlier comments about anavar being able to be used to help "burn" fat even in those over the 15% level. I am somewhat disappointed but will contunue to lose the fat so I can do it right. I estimate (at least) 3 more months (being optimistic) before I can hit that magic 15% bf!


Good for you for not jumping in without dieting down properly. And congrats on the BF reduction already!  :Smilie:

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## panntastic

Bump

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## austinite

Damn. Front page is always flooded with the same damn threads. Would be nice if we could just link to them as needed.

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## panntastic

> Damn. Front page is always flooded with the same damn threads. Would be nice if we could just link to them as needed.


I bet you only a small percentage of members actually read them though

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## MickeyKnox

> Damn. Front page is always flooded with the same damn threads. Would be nice if we could just link to them as needed.


Agreed.

Bump..

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## Brazensol

I asked on another thread but will also ask here. About how much can someone expect to gain on their first cycle and how much will you keep once the cycle ends?

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## MickeyKnox

In a prefect world, 15-20 pounds. And you'll keep about 15 lbs if you eat and exercise *properly* through cycle including PCT.

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## austinite

> I asked on another thread but will also ask here. About how much can someone expect to gain on their first cycle and how much will you keep once the cycle ends?


Most parrots will tell you that 15 to 20 lbs is attainable. Not the case. I don't care what your diet looks like. This questions really can't be answered because everyone's diet is different and bodies react differently. If you can retain 5 to 7 lbs of muscle from a short var run, be happy.

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## MickeyKnox

> I asked on another thread but will also ask here. About how much can someone expect to gain on their first cycle and how much will you keep once the cycle ends?


Braz, to be clear my answer was for a typical first cycle, not a Var only or anything like that. Its a fact that during your first AAS cycle you will likely make the biggest amount of gains compared to all other cycles.

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## Brazensol

I could live with 7-15 pounds!!! When I get my bf down to 15% or less I would like to run a var and test cycle. Am I correct in thinking no PCT necessary since I am on Test. Cyp. for trt? Basically just returning to my maintenance dose (128mgs/week) would be my PCT? 

One more thing. I am also on thyroid meds and wonder if a cycle would affect this in any way? Thanks guys.

----------


## BillT396

I agree with your assessment and on 20mg of var for one week. Can I also take hydrogel 1.62% to increase my test?

----------


## MickeyKnox

To the top

----------


## Brazensol

> I agree with your assessment and on 20mg of var for one week. Can I also take hydrogel 1.62% to increase my test?


Something to keep in mind with gels is that they are hit or miss as to how much an individual/you absorb. I started out using the 1% gel and was then bumped up to the 1.62% gel and still did not get much from it. Except lower test levels. I had to switch to test cyp and it was night and day how I felt. Plus with gels you have to be careful around any women or children in your life. Just something to think about.

----------


## urapunk

If i run test e at 500mg a week and anavar 50mg ed for 10 weeks considering it's my first AAS cycle, will Nolva suffice for PCT? or do i need to include HCG as well. Thanks in advance

----------


## cruzetor

anavar and test sounds like a good cycle

----------


## MickeyKnox

> If i run test e at 500mg a week and anavar 50mg ed for 10 weeks considering it's my first AAS cycle, will Nolva suffice for PCT? or do i need to include HCG as well. Thanks in advance


I don't know your stats but if you read this link you will find everything you need to properly and safely run a first cycle. Please ensure your stats are inline with running a first cycle. If you're unaware of what that is, begin a thread in the Q&A and include your proposed cycle and stats for critique and tips by our members. 

***Most Common Beginners Cycles***

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?517175-Most-Common-Beginners-Cycles-Look-here..#.UJZv62fX_fs

----------


## urapunk

Thanks for the answer.
My stats:
age 30
weight 170
height 5'7''
BF 18%

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Thanks for the answer.
> My stats:
> age 30
> weight 170
> height 5'7''
> BF 18%


Ok perfect. Post up a new thread in this forum along with your proposed cycle for any questions you may have.  :Smilie:

----------


## urapunk

Cool. Thanx

----------


## urapunk

Does anybody have any idea why Atomini got banned? I really liked his posts, very informative and always helpful.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Does anybody have any idea why Atomini got banned? I really liked his posts, very informative and always helpful.


He broke some rules here. Sad to see him go - he's a bright kid with a future. But rules are rules. It's all good however. He's happy and healthy.  :Smilie:

----------


## Sllammy

Wish I would have read this post 4 years ago...

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Wish I would have read this post 4 years ago...


Better late than never.  :Smilie:

----------


## dickster

Excellent read.

----------


## tebby

stellar as always. Always nice to see the science.

----------


## johnC80

This is a great thread, going to have to revisit it once I am ready to plan a cycle. Anavar with TRT test level sounds like it will be my first cycle.

----------


## human project

> He broke some rules here. Sad to see him go - he's a bright kid with a future. But rules are rules. It's all good however. He's happy and healthy.


The best members get banned I swear

----------


## [][][]==HULK==[][][]

Bringing up and old post here. This info is amazing. My question to you is what would you consider to be a general TRT dose using Test Suspension? Seeing as in general this is a more powerful test vs oil bases tests.

Thank you in advance.

----------


## BigLegslittlearms

Hey,

I have taken anavar only cycle for 12 weeks 50mg up too 100mg then down too 50 mg again. I know its stupid that i did this without a base as test, i listned too a friend unfortunately.
My problem is that after the PCT Clomid+nolva i didnt take them for long tho. My sexdrive is completely gone im not getting horny at all. I can get it up and release my load but wihtout any horny feeling.

Any help?,

PS: i know it was stupid it was my first anabolic experience.

----------


## GodOnEarth

I am surprised people have done this 10years ago, this is our recent study:https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...than-tbol.html
We came to the same conclusion
---
Just out of curiosity, why do you pick the number 24 or below as the age people should not use steroid ? Why not higher

----------


## GodOnEarth

That's the thing, you should never consider using steroid if you don't plan on getting on TRT for life. Even one cycle can takes years to recover, if you can recover at all.
Nobody talks about this in bodybuilding because no bodybuilder ever get off steroid

----------

