# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS >  Short heavy cyles explained- PB theory

## marcus300

Due to the large number of PM's i have recieved i thought i would explain this theory alittle more,

You cant keep building muscle tissue over long periods of time because weight gain and muscular growth don't happen that way. Not in infants, toddlers, teenagers, or even weight trainers. Instead, weight gain seems to come in spurts or surges. It's amazing how you can train hard and eat very well year round yet only seem to make progress in quick little infrequent spurts of growth even with taking all the AAS compounds the body still gets use to what its taken. 

The body can gain large tissue gains for short periods of time but it cant keep maintaining this for weeks on end, it is possible to gain a 1lb a day for the first few weeks of this type of cycling,if your advanced enough and you know how to combat the side effects this is amazing way to push yourself past any sticking point into new growth, if you have the right enviroment for the body it will have rapid fast growth 

Also its not just the gear and cycling what makes this work its the training and diet what comes with this method which also helps a great deal in the process, you can mentaly get ready for this method and put 100% into everything 24hr dedication for 30 days but impossible to keep this type of intensity up for weeks on end, what i mean about priming the body is the run up to this type of cycling, you need to be totaly free from gear and start to prime (with diet) yourself and this will make an enviroment for large muscle tissue gains what can be maintained without bridging and also recovery is far easier, you dont carry on with high dosages either the next cycle can be a short one but the dose is very mild and because the body isnt use to it, it still grows at a fast rate, 

ive cycled over the last 17yrs and have kept a diary with all my cycles in it, ive done 30 week cycles and short ones and i can honestly say its the short ones which keep the most gains, with long term cycles you end up bridging or cruising which means you have to keep increasing the dose of the test with each new cycle, gains get harder and harder to obtain, 

This theory is Paul Borreson's who made Dorain Yates the man he become and many more top BB's, he adviced me on many things and always pushed this method, he was years ahead of the game,and it has been proven many times, i am also in contact with alot of BB's from this site who have tried this theory and have had amazing results, ive just finished a 30 day cycle and am in pct, gains are great, 

it also depends on your cycle history for which dose you go on and not what others are using, ive seen amazing results over the years and recovery & maintenance are very easy.

if the younger ones would just listen and do this type of cycling they would stop alot of heartache when they are older, briding/coasting/HRT/ increased mg everytime they go back on a cycle, but i must say some are listening because of some of the senior members are talking about it and trying it with results, 

i must state again that before you start your cycle you MUST prime your body and create an anabolic enviroment so when you do start large muscle tissue come on very quickly.the muscle receptors get very excitable with this method,

prime your body before cycle + high dose of AAS + GH + very intense training program = hugh muscle tissue gains within 30 day cycles = fact!

primming the body before a short heavy cycle is one of the most important thing you can do especailly with this theory, you diet down and lose fat, just like a comp diet or ive found better way of priming by cycling the carbs 3 low 1 high this will create a very anabolic emviroment for muscle tissue to grow, the muscle receptors get highly excitable and upgrade and able to accept more glucose and because glucose levels are not full in the muscle the result is more deposited into the muscle instead of fat cells which creates an enviroment to build muscle tissue very quickley, if this is done correcty and AAS+GH are combined and timed right when you start this heavy short cycle, growth is amazing,
When you are priming you must up your protein and aminos to compensate any catabolism,

The dosage of theses cycles are worked out for the indivdual by looking back over his cycle history and are NOT a long cycle just cut down in size, *THESE CYCLES ARE NOT FOR FIRST TIMERS OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT GOT ALOT OF CYCLE HISTORY*

Regards marcus

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## HUNTER1

Nice, good read!

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## Booz

great post marcus as usual!!
i know your methods and to some that are set in their ways they are a tad alien but if you really think about it and go about it in the right manner this is an awsome way too cycle!short 30 day hits,i know you put a good amount of weight on and for only 30 days that is great!
if it wasnt for me already purchasing my summer cycle i would be running this way,but i will have a bang at the end of or start of next year!
again as you have stated many times this is not for the beginner,the doses are dependable on previouse cycles!!
*The Shadow was a monster*!!!nuff said!!!
props marcus!

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## usamm

nice post

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## marcus300

> great post marcus as usual!!
> i know your methods and to some that are set in their ways they are a tad alien but if you really think about it and go about it in the right manner this is an awsome way too cycle!short 30 day hits,i know you put a good amount of weight on and for only 30 days that is great!
> if it wasnt for me already purchasing my summer cycle i would be running this way,but i will have a bang at the end of or start of next year!
> again as you have stated many times this is not for the beginner,the doses are dependable on previouse cycles!!
> *The Shadow was a monster*!!!nuff said!!!
> props marcus!


Thanks booz for your comments,

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## novicenovicen

Marcus, where can i find this information, so I may study up and incorporate?
Also would this be beneficial to people who are looking to be powerlifter big?

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## IBdmfkr

Thanks for this post Marcus, I'll have to dig up some of your older posts, as many of them explain further on this theory. Still much has been left unsaid as far as individualizing this program.

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## stocky121

great read bro  :Thumps Up:

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## marcus300

> Thanks for this post Marcus, I'll have to dig up some of your older posts, as many of them explain further on this theory. Still much has been left unsaid as far as individualizing this program.


if i post cycles and dosages it would shock alot of people and the beginner/novice may just start using such dosages which would be very dangerous, this is why i havent given an example cycle for just this reason, there are to many newbie on this site and this is why this as to be kept with the more advanced BB,

thanks for your comments

ive pm you...

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## IBdmfkr

Got it, thx bro. Yes, those dosages are shocking but I understand where you're coming from.

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## novicenovicen

Marcus,
thats a kool way of doing it. I guess i should have thought about that just from reading the 100 crazy posts I read a day about some 16 year old trying to do AAs ( with a deca anavar dianabol only cycle, BTW whats PCT???? hahah). Would you mind sending me a PM about the proper time in someones building career, that this would be appropriate?

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## marcus300

> Got it, thx bro. Yes, those dosages are shocking but I understand where you're coming from.


them dosages were right for you only, other people may start lower or alot higher,  :Wink/Grin:

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## marcus300

> Marcus,
> thats a kool way of doing it. I guess i should have thought about that just from reading the 100 crazy posts I read a day about some 16 year old trying to do AAs ( with a deca anavar dianabol only cycle, BTW whats PCT???? hahah). Would you mind sending me a PM about the proper time in someones building career, that this would be appropriate?


*i must state again these cycles are not for a novice/beginner*

you need to have a good few years of training under your belt before even thinking about doing one, you also need to have had afew course's and you know how your body reacts to different compounds, this way of cycling can be used by many but you must remember the dose is going to be alot higher than your normally use.

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## novicenovicen

Good,
Well i will be Pming you in a year or so. hahahahah. Good reads here.

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## IBdmfkr

I'm not even positive I'm ready for this type of cycling, I'll have to give it some thought and study-up on PB's theories and ideas. Where did you go to find most of your info Marcus?

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## marcus300

> I'm not even positive I'm ready for this type of cycling, I'll have to give it some thought and study-up on PB's theories and ideas. Where did you go to find most of your info Marcus?


I use to know him, he adviced me a few years back on certain things,
its not just PB who as talked about this theory Dan Duchaine, Jeff Summers, have also used it and studied it with great success,

PB has a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function, his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders, he also transform the world aids victims and how we can substain life longer with steriod applications,top pro's ask PB for advice on stacks and cycles just to name one was DY who was under PB arm durring his Olympia battles,

i also know that Dorian said in interviews that he had nothing to do with PB or his theorys, but Dorian was pushed to say these things because of his sponsers, he still was in contact with him for years tho.
he also didnt die due to his steriod use, he broke his back in an accident which made him use pain killers so he could train again, he overdosed on the pain killers.

I think you can buy his books and videos online, just to name two of them-

1,The Anabolic Edge 2001
Written by the legend PB, this masterpiece, if you had to pick one, would be the best because it details the combination of drugs, supplements and foods and how they interact “anabolically” with each other more thoroughly than any steroid book. 

Many stacks are discussed as only “Stack Master PB” can discuss them . . . HARD-CORE beyond HHHARD-CORE! This book, just on its own, is good for 20 pounds of muscle! 

2,How To Stack Steroids 
The “Stack Master” strikes again. But this time Paul devotes an entire book The Stack to this most fascinating subject. Now you’ll easily be certified by the post office as a “new zip code” once you try any one of the dozens of stacks Paul has used to “manufacture” the biggest bodybuilders in the world. Must be 21 to read! The most controversial steroid book on the market.

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## Spyder

Thanks Marcus, awesome read. I would really like to give this theory a go over the next few years.

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## AleX-69

hi guys a while back i read a post from "realgains" on another forum concerning short cycles.. I'll post what he said here. Maybe you could comment on his theory marcus.  :Wink/Grin:  
This theory also seems to be better suited for steroid newbies  :LOL:  

__________________________________________________ _______________

Written by Realgains

As many of you already know I have had decent success with short cycles. I, along with some of my friends and clients, have had good results with cycles as short as 14 days long.

I no longer do cycles longer than 4-6 weeks as I am simply sick of the sides that build up after 4-6 weeks and I no longer feel comfortable walking around with a shitty lipid profile for months on end.


WHAT QUALIFIES AS SHORT

"In my book" any cycle 6 weeks or less is a short cycle. Personally I now think that 4 weekers give the best gains to sides ratio.

You can do 2 weeks "on" 2-4 weeks "off"
You can do 4 weeks on and 4-6 weeks off
Or you can do 6 weeks on with 6-8 weeks off.
4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, year round, gives excellent results and you are only "on" half the year. 

WHY DO THEM

#1.
If you are one of those bro's that does longer cycles, of say 10-12 weeks or more, and then wisely takes an equal amount of time off, and you are tired of loosing so much of your gains post cycle due to the length of the time off...the yoyo affect....then why not try doing shorter cycles with their corresponding shorter off times...... obviously you don't gain as much with a short cycle but then again you don't loose as much post cycle either due to the shorter off time.

Now... over say a year of doing 4 on 4-6 off you are gong to get very similar results as that seen from doing longer cycles of say 12 "on" 12-14 off but with less yo-yo affect and less sides. In fact most of my clients that do 4-6 week cycles tell me that they are actually getting better gains over a years use.

#2.
Do them to have less of a negative impact on ones lipid profile and to have less total time per year with a poor lipid profile.

Some of you may not know that androgens, taken at even newbie bodybuilding doses, alter everyones lipid profile. Everyone sees their hdl(good cholesterol) take a huge "nosedive" and most also see their ldl(bad cholesterol) go up to some degree but not to the same degree that hdl decreases. Generally hdl decreases 40-70% in as little as 2 weeks and ldl increases an average of 36% in 4 weeks. In my experience this reduction in hdl puts all bro's hdl WELL below the pathological minimum of 35. My ldl does not elevate above the pathological level of 160 but others see ldl's well above 160.
Lipid levels typically normalize within 3-10 weeks after discontinuation.
( details taken from article in Medscape)

Here are my "numbers" from the last long cycle of test 750mg/week and Tren 75mg/day. A powerful stack but not a huge dose of gear. It's been as bad with less powerful gear and lower doses. Blood work done after week 7.

Total cholesterol 181...not bad.
ldl 160...not very good
hdl 11.6! CRAPPY big time
Cholesterol to hdl ratio 15.7 to 1...ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE! This is when my doc and I had a COW at the same time.
Triglycerides 50...good.

Here is my "baseline" without gear

Chol 152...great
ldl 106...great
hdl 45-48...good
tri 50..good 
chol to hdl ratio....3.16 to 1.....good

.As far as I and my endochrinologist are concerned this lipid altering side of gear use is the single worst side of steroid use .
In as little as a week hdl decreases. Personally my brother-in-law and I really see a huge decrease after about 3 weeks "on' cycle. The last time I did a long cycle my total cholesterol to hdl ratio plummeted to 15 to 1!...My doc had a cow and so did I!!

According to current medical thought ones total cholesterol to hdl ratio is the single greatest LIPID indicator for assessing ones chances of developing heart disease. Men with low total cholesterols but with crappy hdl have gone on to develope heart disease WITHOUT ANY OTHER RISK FACTORS such as smoking, or diabetes.

Ideally you want an hdl of at least 40 and a ratio of 3.5 to 1 or better.

My mentor, the late great MIKE MENTZER died of heart disease at age 50 and I know for a fact that ARNOLD had more than valve surgery(I am an operating room nurse as well as a trainer)


#3.
Do them to decrease liver stress.
Generally long cycles with non 17aa roids are not that hard on the liver but sometimes one can get into trouble. The short cycle allows for less total stress on the liver and the frequent "off" times allows the liver to regenerate very well.
Generally a healthy liver can take pretty big "hits" for short periods of time without any problem ...it is long term stress that cause liver damage(as seen with elevated GGT enzyme levels)

#4.
Do them if you want to "tone down" your use of steroids .

#5.
Do them if you do NOT want to use HCG during a cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. HPTA shut down will be complete in as little as a week "on" but testicualr atrophy is minimal due to the short length of this shut down. This then allows for better HPTA recovery post cycle.
It is small testes that makes HPTA recovery slow because GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH from the pituitary normally rebound pretty rapidly.
* There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

You certainly can use hcg while on any short cycle to prevent any testicular shrinkage if you like but it really isn't necessary.

#6.
Do them if you do not want to see much in the way of water retention and do not want to use an estrogen inhibitor or an ace inhibitor(diuretic) 


#7.
Do them if you get high blood pressure and do not wish to use the above mentioned ancillaries.

#8. Do them if you are sick of androgenic sides such as ance, prostate hypertrophy and hair loss(if prone to hair loss) etc etc.
Androgen sides come on for two reason...dose used and especially length of time "on". I do not get acne until after 4 weeks on and then I get hammered.....and I hate it.

#9.
Do them if you are tired of walking around with high estrogen levels for months on end and do not wish to or cannot afford to use an estrogen inhibitor. High estrogen levels are NOT good for the prostate at all!

You certainly can use estrogen inhibitors if you like if you want to keep estrogen levels down and experience very little water retention.


WHY NOT TO DO THEM

Obviously if you compete at a high level then short cycles are probably not the best for you, BUT I think they are the best way to use steroids for the vast majority of bro's.
Top competitors need to be "on" either all the time or most of the time....thats unfortunate but usually necessary in order to get freaky huge which is now needed to win big.


WHAT TO EXPECT

If one is not yet at ones natural maximum level of muscular developement then very good gains can be seen of up to 15 pounds and 10 pounds kept after a 4 weeker...as long as you train correctly as a natural post cycle.

If one is off gear and has dropped to ones natural max then a short cycle can add up to 10 pounds. If you take no more than 6 weeks off after each four weeker you will not loose much...then in each successive cycle you can still gain but the gains will be smaller the further you get from your natural max.

Those that are off cycle and have not yet shrunk down to their natural max can still gain well with successive short cycles but don't expect to win at the national level.

One of the things I like about short cycles is the short time "off" between cycles.......muscular atrophy is minimal during the off time and you are allowing for frequent bodily normalization after minimal time "on". LESS SIDES IN GENERAL, LESS TIME WITH A SHITTY LIPID PROFILE and LESS MUSCLE LOSS POST CYCLE.

NOTE: You cannot get "freaky big" in this way...that takes very big doses and spending most of the year, for years on end, on steroids as well as GH and slin, and that my freinds is simply not a good idea unless you plan to make your living as a bodybuilder.

Getting pretty darn big in small steps is a safer way to use gear IMHO...and it messes less with one head too. Some guys really get depressed during "off" times of 12 or more weeks waiting to start their next cycle.


GEAR CHOICE and RATIONAL

The idea behind short cycles is to "get in" quick, hit the androgen receptors hard, get some gains, and then get the hell out as fast as possible so as to minimize sides. So with this in mind one should only use orals and rapid acting/clearing injectables. The limited time "on' simply doesn't justify the use of the "slower" esterfied injectables like deca etc. Also, these same roids take too long to clear the system and that too goes against the philosophy of short cycles.

The gear choosen should be powerful for best results and doses need to be decent as well in order to get the most from the short time on.
You can use mild gear like anavar but your results will be reduced.

BEST Gear

d-bol
test prop Tren anadrol 

BEST stacks.

Personally I think d-bol/tren cannot be beat. There is only one roid that is better than testosterone , in the short run, IMHO and that is d-bol...too bad it's 17aa.

Test prop/tren
Test prop/tren/winny
Test prop/anadrol
Test prop/d-bol


STACKS AND DOSE EXAMPLES

I like Tren and I like d-bol and especially for a shorty. YES NEWBIE you can use these strong androgens and NO Tren is not hard on the kidneys(myth). 

Some guys think I am nuts for recommending Tren for a first cycle and they say it is too harsh.... but most of the same bro's will recommend a long cycle of test/d-bol for a newbie and I can assure you that a long cycle of test/d-bol is going to give you more sides than a shorty with Tren and d-bol. Bro's test is just as "harsh" as Tren and it causes a good deal of water retention, with resultant increase in BP(bad in some bro's) unless you use an estrogen inhibitor....and shit test/d-bol stacks are WAY "harsher" than Tren. 

The only issue with Tren is the frequent injecting required.....but I know some of you newbies have been researching for a long time and are fine with the idea of frequent injections(they aren't that bad!)


Novice... TREN/D-BOL.... Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks and d-bol 30mg/day in 4 divided doses per day(one right before bed) for 4 weeks.
Two days after last Tren do Clomid at 200-300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg a day for 3 more weeks. OR...Nolva at 80mg on day one in divided doses followed by 40mg/day for a week and then 20mg/day for 3 more weeks.
Have nolva or Clomid on hand for gyno protection.

More advanced...200 of Tren on day one as a front load to get Tren levels up pronto and then 75mg/day for 4 weeks. D-bol 50mg/day in 4 divided doses for 4 weeks. SERMS as above

Novice...TEST PROP/TREN

Test prop 75mg/day for 4 weeks and Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks. Serms as above. nolva on hand.

more advanced.....Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-200mg/day for 4 weeks. Tren 75mg/day. An estrogen inhibitor might be needed.

MEGA STACK... ADVANCED
Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100mg /day for 4 weeks, d-bol 50mg/day and Tren 75mg/day......LOOK THE HELL OUT! Have the nolva on the tip of your tongue he he he ...arimidex at 1-1.5mg/day would be wise even for the short 4 week period.

SINGLE STEROIDS

D-bol really is an unreal roid and as I said it is even better than test in the short run IMHO.
One can get very nice results from d-bol alone at 50mg/day for 4-6 weeks. Don't take it for longer than 6 weeks though as it is a 17aa roid and as such is somewhat hard on the liver.
D-bol for 6 weeks at a time was a favorite cycle length in the old days and produced excellent gains. 

Test prop can be run all by itself at 75-200mg/day with great results too.



OKAY.....BUT YOU SAY YOU ONLY HAVE SUST, EQ, CYP etc

Long chain esterfied roids and tests are not the best choice for the shorty, as explained above, but they can work pretty well IF you do pretty large front loads. FRONT LOADS simply help to get blood hormone levels up more quickly.

ie: Intermediate user doing test cyp ...do a FRONT LOAD of at least 800mg on day one...then 2 days latter do 400mg and then every 4h day do another 400.
400 every 4th day is equal to 700mg per week.

Run the cyp for 4-6 weeks and you'll get some decent gains from it.

* Best to use Tren with this cycle....or d-bol (1 mg of arimidex/day if using d-bol and test)

* After the last shot of cyp you are going to have to wait for a couple weeks for androgen levels to drop before you start PCT and this is akin to lengthening the cycle.



BLOOD LIPIDS

You might want to consider taking the worlds best hdl improver while "on" cycle...NIACIN!
Nothing even comes close to niacins hdl incresing powers. Personally it has not helped my hdl while "on' nor has it helped my brother-in-laws, but you might see some level of improvement(don't expect a great improvement though since androgens do such a great job of messing with hepatic lipaze)

Nicain comes in three forms...regular, extended release(Niaspan) and non flush niacin. Niaspan is the best and works well at 1500mg/day taken once daily. Regular niacin works well at 600-1000mg three times a day but it gives a nasty ichy flush for a while after taking each pill.
Non flush works fairly well at 2-3 grams a day but not as good as the others IMHO.


Use nicain while "off" for sure as it will rapidly improve your shitty hdl level.
NOTE*** niacin can be hard on the liver so never use it with acutane which is hard on the liver. You really should have liver panels done if you use niacin for more than 6 weeks and be followed by a doctor(Swale would be good) especially if you are on steroids as well.

ENTER POLICOSANOL

DrVeejay11(real doctor) introduced me to another great lipid protector/improver and it too raises hdl BUT BONUS...it lowers ldl too.. and it's not liver toxic at all so you could use this stuff all the time with no worries.
Do a search at www.medscape.com for abstracts on POLICOSANOL.


I recommed that all be followed by a doctor while on steroids or at the very least educate yourself about the sides of steroid use and how to avoid the pitfalls by following yourself with blood work at labs that do not require a docs script(especially liver panels... and psa for us older guys) And guys at a minimum also watch your blood pressure while on gear at your local drug store monitoring station....keep the BP under 140 over 90 if you can especailly if you are "on" for months on end.


Best of gains and health to you all.

__________________________________________________ ______________

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## marcus300

Alex69, he is defo hitting on the same kind of theory, intresting

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## G-Force

after having done 3 cycles in the past all of which were over 12 weeks
i am keen to try out this short/heavy type of cycling

i definitely get my best results in the first 4 weeks and 
and i hate being off for 12 + weeks

what would the PCT be like for one of these heavy 4 weekers Marcus

will they need to be equally as heavy?

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## AleX-69

one or two years ago as i started to inform myself 'bout aas use i had a conversation via email with him concering his short cycle theory. 
He really seems to know his sh***.

Since then i wonderd why this topic wasn't more popular especially for non competitive BB's.. 
So I'm glad you started this thread marcus. Maybe short cycles will get a bit more attention now..

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## marcus300

> after having done 3 cycles in the past all of which were over 12 weeks
> i am keen to try out this short/heavy type of cycling
> 
> i definitely get my best results in the first 4 weeks and 
> and i hate being off for 12 + weeks
> 
> what would the PCT be like for one of these heavy 4 weekers Marcus
> 
> will they need to be equally as heavy?


just think if you put everything into them first 4 weeks, ie- intense training,food,AAS and if the body was primed correctly beforehand, just think how much more you would grow, your better off taking advantage of the first 4 weeks because you cant keep on growing for weeks on end, just put 24/7 dedication into the 4 weeks which is possible but yet again its not for weeks on end, take advantage of the growth spurts/bursts because its the best time to, can you see were am coming from??

pct is done the normal way you would recover from a standerd cycle, but must say recovery is easier you rebound very quickley, thats if you havent done to much damage with long drawn out cycles..

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## marcus300

> one or two years ago as i started to inform myself 'bout aas use i had a conversation via email with him concering his short cycle theory. 
> He really seems to know his sh***.
> 
> Since then i wonderd why this topic wasn't more popular especially for non competitive BB's.. 
> So I'm glad you started this thread marcus. Maybe short cycles will get a bit more attention now..


Thanks, 
people get set in their ways for cycling, but there is more than 1 way to do it, people should never dismiss anything in bodybuilding, if this system works for you you will see amazing gains, and am sure you will never do a*heavy* long cycle again

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## G-Force

> just think if you put everything into them first 4 weeks, ie- intense training,food,AAS and if the body was primed correctly beforehand, just think how much more you would grow, your better off taking advantage of the first 4 weeks because you cant keep on growing for weeks on end, just put 24/7 dedication into the 4 weeks which is possible but yet again its not for weeks on end, take advantage of the growth spurts/bursts because its the best time to, can you see were am coming from??
> 
> pct is done the normal way you would recover from a standerd cycle, but must say recovery is easier you rebound very quickley, thats if you havent done to much damage with long drawn out cycles..



yeah i see where your comming from
but what do u mean be priming your body before hand

i am always eating corectly with high protein etc year round so i dont know what u mean by priming yourself

unless u mean a short 4 week cut/diet with low carbs before you throw huge amount of calories/AAS at your body?

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## marcus300

> yeah i see where your comming from
> but what do u mean be priming your body before hand
> 
> i am always eating corectly with high protein etc year round so i dont know what u mean by priming yourself
> 
> unless u mean a short 4 week cut/diet with low carbs before you throw huge amount of calories/AAS at your body?


primming the body before a short heavy cycle is one of the most important thing you can do especailly with this theory, you diet down and lose fat, just like a comp diet or ive found better way of priming by cycling the carbs 3 low 1 high this will create a very anabolic emviroment for muscle tissue to grow, the muscle receptors get highly excitable and upgrade and able to accept more glucose and because glucose levels are not full in the muscle the result is more deposited into the muscle instead of fat cells which creates an enviroment to build muscle tissue very quickley, if this is done correcty and AAS+GH are combined and timed right when you start this heavy short cycle, growth is amazing,
When you are priming you must up your protein and aminos to compensate any catabolism

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## vitor

Greate thread!!

Marcus300- What is your favourite drugs to use in short-burst cycle?

(I was thinking of doing a tren /winstrol /andriol cycle!)

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## marcus300

> Greate thread!!
> 
> Marcus300- What is your favourite drugs to use in short-burst cycle?
> 
> (I was thinking of doing a tren/winstrol/andriol cycle!)


Thanks vitor,

*first am not going to discuss dosages on this thread for certain reason,* 
but the main drug is test, not many compounds are needed, i got to say i love andriol but i wouldnt use an oral in this theory, because of the amount you would need, 

but andriol is really good for the maintenace cycle following a short heavy one,

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## Xtralarg

I have done many cycles over the past few years.Most of them have been between8-12 weeks long,what I found is that I grew in the first 4-6 weeks then stopped,no matter what I did after that time I would not gain any more weight.
My last cycle was a short heavy one, it was 4 weeks long.
It included test e,tren e,prop,winny,eq,nolva,T4 and hgh(thru)....I switched and added compounds every 10 days.
During the first two and a half weeks I had gained 14 lbs,the gains then stopped.I ran pct after the cycle hcg ,clom,prov,nolva.
Iis now 3+ weeks since i finished the cycle and I have not lost a single lb which I gained.On top of this my BF % has bropped so the overall muscle gains well exceed 14lbs.
I will never do a cycle loger then 4 weeks again and strongly advise everybody to try one,the results are amazing.

Dont knock it till you've tried it!

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## G-Force

> primming the body before a short heavy cycle is one of the most important thing you can do especailly with this theory, you diet down and lose fat, just like a comp diet or ive found better way of priming by cycling the carbs 3 low 1 high this will create a very anabolic emviroment for muscle tissue to grow, the muscle receptors get highly excitable and upgrade and able to accept more glucose and because glucose levels are not full in the muscle the result is more deposited into the muscle instead of fat cells which creates an enviroment to build muscle tissue very quickley, if this is done correcty and AAS+GH are combined and timed right when you start this heavy short cycle, growth is amazing,
> When you are priming you must up your protein and aminos to compensate any catabolism



yeah thats what i thought
dieting before a bulker
that is what i have done with this cycle - except it is a long one (18 weeks)

one other thing

- if i can gain 20lbs in 4 weeks (which i normally do) on low moderate doseages

would tripling these doseages actually allow me to gain more than that in 4 weeks?

i cant see the human body being able to grow much quicker than the 20lb/4weeks - maybe a little bit - but i would prob see it as a great deal more gear for just a few extra pounds

i'm going on my personal experiences here - i may be an exception cos i dont know anyone else that has gained as much as me in 4 weeks on such a low dose - i'm sure there are a few and few moore that have gained even more but i am sure they are an exception to the rule

why not use short/low - moderate dose cycles instead?

at least in my case

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## primetime1

marcus, thanks for starting this thread as the feed back is great, 
i have some questions also,.. you said high dose of aas+ gh would provide this kinda of growth, but is the gh necessary? could great gains be made wit out it? 

also, when you do these short blast, i would presume it would mostly be fast acting aas? would doing these type of cycles allow for one to cycle more often in a year or would more time off be required for recovery?

also, even though dosages are independent of personal experiance could you possibly post and example of how or what you run?

from your experiance, would this be better suited for cutting bulking or both? 
thanks in advance for the replys

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## AleX-69

@G-Force

20lbs in 4 weeks i plenty IMHO. No need to adjust doasges upwards i'd say.
Moreover i don't think your body could support an even greater increase in LBM in such a short period of time.. 

Actually short / lower dose cylces is what RG advised to do..

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## marcus300

> marcus, thanks for starting this thread as the feed back is great, 
> i have some questions also,.. you said high dose of aas+ gh would provide this kinda of growth, but is the gh necessary? could great gains be made wit out it? 
> 
> also, when you do these short blast, i would presume it would mostly be fast acting aas? would doing these type of cycles allow for one to cycle more often in a year or would more time off be required for recovery?
> 
> also, even though dosages are independent of personal experiance could you possibly post and example of how or what you run?
> 
> from your experiance, would this be better suited for cutting bulking or both? 
> thanks in advance for the replys


alot of the answers you require are in this thread,

you dont have to use fast acting test, long esters can be used with the same effect, because of the amount use each day the build up is quick,

it works alot better with growth the quality is outstanding, but yes BB's have used it without and still got good results from it

soryy am not posting dosages because alot of beginners may try it out and do something stupid, the dose is alot more than you would normaly use, but remember it only for 30 days,

cutting or bulking thats a hard one, i do prefer to cut up with a cycle after ive done a short burst one, its normaly very mild just to stop me going catabolic, overall these cycles are better to bulk with but the end result is you big and ripped

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## AleX-69

@primetime

I suggest reading up on the article i quoted from realgains. I think pretty much all of your questions are covered there. 

Actually marcus' short cycles are more geared to the competitive BB whereas RG is focusing on the newbie or intermediate AAS user..But its the same theory.

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## primetime1

thanks for the feed back bros. 
marcus, i was writing that post as yous were postin up so i didnt see that you wouldnt give an example.. its cool because i understand some might try to do what you post.. 

alex i read up on RG's theories and i certainly am goin to give this a try when im ready for my next cyc. im no pro bb but def a gym rat intermediate user so thats def geared more towards my personal goals. 

i appreciate all the feed back in this thread. 
ive also read in "builing the perfect beast" the auther.(Rea.??). i forget the name, also suggest shorter cycles with heavier dosages? does anyone else have experiances with short blast cycles as id like to hear more personal views, heaveier or lighter dosages and results.

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## novicenovicen

What about those wanting to do eq? Since it seems to be the conscensus that you have to do EQ for 14 weeks. Would you mind giving me a sample that would incorporate eq?

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## Xtralarg

> What about those wanting to do eq? Since it seems to be the conscensus that you have to do EQ for 14 weeks. Would you mind giving me a sample that would incorporate eq?


Dosages are not really to be discussed in this thread,newbies my get the wrong idea.Shory HEAVY cycling is for the experienced BB.
Infomation on dosages should be kept to PM.

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## novicenovicen

I understand that. My question is concerning EQ. 1: can it be used on this short super cycle....(because supposedly you need to run it for 14 weeks to see true effects)
2: if it can't be run like this, what would be a sample program that it could be run?

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## Pinnacle

> I understand that. My question is concerning EQ. 1: can it be used on this short super cycle....(because supposedly you need to run it for 14 weeks to see true effects)
> 2: if it can't be run like this, what would be a sample program that it could be run?


It can be ran on short cycles like what is being discussed in this thread,BUT the doses have to be extremely high.

No one is going to help you with doses..stop fishing..and judging by the questions you've been asking lately,this is wayyyy out of your league.

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## novicenovicen

Thanks for the input pinn. If I came across as fishing, that wasn't my intention my intention is to learn. I was curious. I have enough EQ sitting here to go a year straight on 600 mg a week. I was wanting to do a 14 week cycle with just test and drol to kick start. I by no means am ready to do these super cycles, and as I already posted am not wanting the dosages, as it is to early for me. I continue to make gains on low dosages and haven't plateued yet. Just was curious about a sample EQ run ( such as 14 weeks 600 mg or 18 weeks 400 mg or 10 weeks 100mg). Just wanting advice from some of the few people on here who probably know.

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## novicenovicen

Thanks for the input pinn. If I came across as fishing, that wasn't my intention my intention is to learn. I was curious. I have enough EQ sitting here to go a year straight on 600 mg a week. I was wanting to do a 14 week cycle with just test and drol to kick start. I by no means am ready to do these super cycles, and as I already posted am not wanting the dosages, as it is to early for me. I continue to make gains on low dosages and haven't plateued yet. Just was curious about a sample EQ run ( such as 14 weeks 600 mg or 18 weeks 400 mg or 10 weeks 100mg). Just wanting advice from some of the few people on here who probably know.

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## Prime

Markus you say this isnt something for a first time gear user but in you're post you also say alot of younger guys would benefit from these kind of cycles over long drawn out ones.

So where do you think you need ot be before you can attempt something like this? one cycle? 2,3,4?

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## fLgAtOr

Once again, I gained most my weight in the first 4-5 weeks of Prop/Tren . Had to stuggle for the next 6 weeks to even get 5 lbs..

Veerrrry interesting boys...

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## IBdmfkr

> Thanks for the input pinn. If I came across as fishing, that wasn't my intention my intention is to learn. I was curious. I have enough EQ sitting here to go a year straight on 600 mg a week. I was wanting to do a 14 week cycle with just test and drol to kick start. I by no means am ready to do these super cycles, and as I already posted am not wanting the dosages, as it is to early for me. I continue to make gains on low dosages and haven't plateued yet. Just was curious about a sample EQ run ( such as 14 weeks 600 mg or 18 weeks 400 mg or 10 weeks 100mg). Just wanting advice from some of the few people on here who probably know.


Seems you are asking advice about how to run Eq on a longer based cycle, This particular thread is about short-burst cycles. Not sure how your question applies? Post up in a new thread and we'll help setup your next cycle, remember to include stats like age, height, weigth, cycle history etc... Best of luck.

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## IBdmfkr

> Markus you say this isnt something for a first time gear user but in you're post you also say alot of younger guys would benefit from these kind of cycles over long drawn out ones.
> 
> So where do you think you need ot be before you can attempt something like this? one cycle? 2,3,4?


I can't speak for marcus but I think if you have experienced many different compounds and know how your body reacts to each then you might be ready. Also diet, training and physique must be up to par, remember him saying to prime the body you must almost go on a contest diet, well if you aren't in close to contest shape I don't see how you are ready for these cycles. JMO.

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## TantruM

im a novice still on first cycle but this interests me... wondering if a guy did this earlyer in his life with maybe 2 or 3 cycles under belt... would it mean if he ever did decide to go back to mid dosage long cycles he would have to use insanely high dosage?

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## IBdmfkr

One of the main reasons why novices to the gym don't need to juice is to keep their bodies in proportion. Everyone has seen the guys who workout for a few months and jump on cycle, don't know jack about correct dieting or training so they tend to favor certain muscle groups making them look retarded. Can you imagine short highdose burst cycle on a novice, not only do they have No clue on how they will respond to a certain drug but your body comp. is shit when you first start, only time and dedication and genetics will determine how your physique will turn out. Not for newbies.

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## TantruM

yeah can see what ya mean but id hope people have commonsense to know how to workout before they start poppin pins... tho i have a friend he bowflexed on and off years ( hahaha) but went to gym and worked out with me two months then made decision that he was gonna juice when i started and there was no stoppin him... so instead of letting him grow boobs shared knowledge iv gained from trollin here a longtime... bastard went from slob to monster over night... neways thats all off topic... anyway think next cycle ima try the short cycle approach i know noone wants to share info on there own dosages but if someone would talk to me over pm and inform me how i could set dosages for my body / goals would be appreciated

wow thats one long run on sentence ow

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## loki_is_a_god

i have been hearing about these short cycles.....running like 500mgs of test e a day for 30 days...would this be a good cycle to try, for my first time....on a short cycle?

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## Pinnacle

> . Also diet, training and physique must be up to par, remember him saying to prime the body you must almost go on a contest diet, well if you aren't in close to contest shape I don't see how you are ready for these cycles. JMO.


No..I think you've misunderstood the concept.

Has nothing to do with being in contest condition.You basically diet down on a contest-like diet..sort of depleting yourself.After about 6-8 weeks of doing so,your body is ready to absorb all the nutrients you throw at it.You are looking to take advantage of the rebound effect from extreme dieting,plus you are adding extremely high amounts of anabolics in the mix.That equates to growth,and it comes on quickly...been there,done that :Smilie:

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## IBdmfkr

That's for clarifying. Figured by doing this type of dieting though that you'd be in close to contest shape. Or are you saying even someone at 20% BF could benefit from such a cycle?

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## AleX-69

> i have been hearing about these short cycles.....running like 500mgs of test e a day for 30 days...would this be a good cycle to try, for my first time....on a short cycle?


500mg test e a day? WTF? Thats 3.5g a week..

IF you meant 500g a week thats ok, but test e isn't that usefull in a short cycle due to the esters longlivity. You would have to frontload the test on cycle day -2 with triple the dose. On cycle day 0 you would use double dose. And from there on you would use 250mg every 4 days.
You should stop the Test e after 14days IMHO as it will take a certain amount of time to get the test out of your system. Instead you should use a fast acting oral like d-bol for the last 14days of the cycle (preferably the whole cycle alongside of test).
After 4weeks you can begin pct.

*But as it is your fist cycle i would not advise you to do a short cycle i outlinde above.* You don't even know how you react to test (i.e. which side effects you may expirience) and frontloading a compound by triple the dose may make matters even worse. Morover test e isn't really well suited for short cycles.
So of i were you i wouldn't use test e for such a cycle. Alternativly you could do a "cookie cutter" newbie cycle at 500mg test e a week for 12 weeks. OR you could get gear better suited for short cycles and try one of the newbie cycles explained in RG article.

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## Xtralarg

[QUOTE=AleX-69]500mg test e a day? WTF? Thats 3.5g a week..

IF you meant 500g a week thats ok, but test e isn't that usefull in a short cycle due to the esters longlivity. 





RUBBISH.....This is the problem,people posting absolute BS.

Have you used a long ester in a short cycle?.....Well I have,Test E,in a 30 day cycle for the first 18 days,exactly the time when I gained 14lbs,all of which I have retained.

So please refrain from posting information which is incorrect it is misleading to others.

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## Gra

Wouldn`t it be better to use prop in a 30 day cycle? What`s the reason for using test e instead?

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## Xtralarg

I use prop towards the end,ran it in the last 12 days in my last short heavy cycle.

Reasons:

1.Test e is usually 250mg/ml , prop 50-100mg/1ml therefore it is easier to get the required ammounts using less cc's with E rather than P.

2.I find that changing esters/compuonds is beneficial,it shocks the body and helps you to keep gaining weight.

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## Booz

> 500mg test e a day? WTF? Thats 3.5g a week..
> 
> IF you meant 500g a week thats ok, but test e isn't that usefull in a short cycle due to the esters longlivity. You would have to frontload the test on cycle day -2 with triple the dose. On cycle day 0 you would use double dose. And from there on you would use 250mg every 4 days.
> You should stop the Test e after 14days IMHO as it will take a certain amount of time to get the test out of your system. Instead you should use a fast acting oral like d-bol for the last 14days of the cycle (preferably the whole cycle alongside of test).
> After 4weeks you can begin pct.
> 
> *But as it is your fist cycle i would not advise you to do a short cycle i outlinde above.* You don't even know how you react to test (i.e. which side effects you may expirience) and frontloading a compound by triple the dose may make matters even worse. Morover test e isn't really well suited for short cycles.
> So of i were you i wouldn't use test e for such a cycle. Alternativly you could do a "cookie cutter" newbie cycle at 500mg test e a week for 12 weeks. OR you could get gear better suited for short cycles and try one of the newbie cycles explained in RG article.


have you not read anything that has been posted about the high dose short cycles mate?
long esters can be used to great effect! :Wink/Grin:

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## goose

Very nice thread marcus,my next cycle will be a PB cycle,very excited.Had a mate gained 19 pounds in the 4 weeks,recently.It is the furture for me....


goose4..

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## Prime

> I can't speak for marcus but I think if you have experienced many different compounds and know how your body reacts to each then you might be ready. *Also diet, training and physique must be up to par, remember him saying to prime the body you must almost go on a contest diet, well if you aren't in close to contest shape I don't see how you are ready for these cycles.* JMO.


That makes no sense to me. You are depleted and not at you're strongest when on a contest diet. 
My interpretation of what Markus had said toward priming yourself was to create a naturally anabolic environment before hitting the cycle, so you hit the ground running.
To have a good diet providing all the nutrients and calories you need for growth while having already entered into a training programme so you wont need 3 weeks to work into things and work up to full strength etc, so when the cycle starts you hit the ground running. 30 days of full bore going for it.

What you are suggesting sounds a little different. I know from experience that after cutting my body has no desire to grow it just wants to recover from being in a calorie deficient state and wants to return to homeostasis. But then thats just me.

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## marcus300

> Markus you say this isnt something for a first time gear user but in you're post you also say alot of younger guys would benefit from these kind of cycles over long drawn out ones.
> 
> So where do you think you need ot be before you can attempt something like this? one cycle? 2,3,4?


*Thats correct its not for the first time gear user,* its for BB's who know their own bodys and how they react to all the different compounds, they need to have a good few years of training under their belts and know how they respond to certain diets,

Younger BB's can benefit from this, because when they are advanced enough they can try these cycles out and they will realise that they dont really need to do long cycles which in turn will really benefit them, ie- no bridging/coasting/ hrt sooner than they should/ no increased dosages with every cycle/ easier recovery/ easier maintenace.

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## marcus300

> That makes no sense to me. You are depleted and not at you're strongest when on a contest diet. 
> My interpretation of what Markus had said toward priming yourself was to create a naturally anabolic environment before hitting the cycle, so you hit the ground running.
> To have a good diet providing all the nutrients and calories you need for growth while having already entered into a training programme so you wont need 3 weeks to work into things and work up to full strength etc, so when the cycle starts you hit the ground running. 30 days of full bore going for it.
> 
> What you are suggesting sounds a little different. I know from experience that after cutting my body has no desire to grow it just wants to recover from being in a calorie deficient state and wants to return to homeostasis. But then thats just me.


primming the body before a short heavy cycle is one of the most important thing you can do especailly with this theory, you diet down and lose fat, just like a comp diet or ive also found better way of priming by cycling the carbs 3 low 1 high this will create a very anabolic emviroment for muscle tissue to grow, the muscle receptors get highly excitable and upgrade and able to accept more glucose and because glucose levels are not full in the muscle the result is more deposited into the muscle instead of fat cells which creates an enviroment to build muscle tissue very quickley, if this is done correcty and AAS+GH are combined and timed right when you start this heavy short cycle, growth is amazing,

When you are priming you must increase your protein/aminos to compensate any canabolisum of the muscle tissue, its a fine line as am sure some know! What you do is take advantage of all the rebound effect, this shuttles the nutrients direct to the muscles this coupled with ASS+GH+intense training program+increased amounts of food = hugh muscle tissue gains FACT.

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## Black R/T

this thread is great. loads of information. i especially like the idea of priming... i have inadvertently done it in the past before a cycle and then just jumped on one and started eating like a monster from the get go. 10lbs in the first 2 weeks is what i got.

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## Black R/T

Marcus, how long do you suggest to prime for? the entire off cycle? or should you give the gear some time to finish doing what it does, then start dieting?

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## marcus300

> this thread is great. loads of information. i especially like the idea of priming... i have inadvertently done it in the past before a cycle and then just jumped on one and started eating like a monster from the get go. 10lbs in the first 2 weeks is what i got.


This is the whole idea, take advantage and use it to its full potential.

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## MatrixGuy

Great post Marcus. Am guessing this information isn't relevant to me *yet* as i have only done 1 cycle.

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## marcus300

> Marcus, how long do you suggest to prime for? the entire off cycle? or should you give the gear some time to finish doing what it does, then start dieting?


It depends which kind of prime you do and how your body reacts when its dieting, this is indivdual, i prefer cycling my carbs 3 days low(40% less than normal) 1 day high (15% higher than normal), i feel this is'nt to harsh on your muscle tissue and the 1 high carb day offsets any potential metobolic slowdown, which is extremely usefull in laying down metobolic boosting muscle or at least saving it. the high carb/low carb rotational diet upgrades the receptors cites on muscle tissue for insulin , this changes the bodys ability to store carbs as glycogen rather than fat,

i could talk all day on this subject,there are loads of tricks you can do to help get your body into the correct enviroment, many different ways.
(the above i normaly do for 6-8 weeks)
i hope am making sense

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## Pinnacle

> Wouldn`t it be better to use prop in a 30 day cycle? What`s the reason for using test e instead?


I ran Prop/Tren (extreme doses) for 21 days.The volume was tough to do,but well worth it for me.I was doing shots in places I never though I would.When the smoke cleared,I kept a little over 8 pounds.Not bad for 21 days :Smilie: 

~Pinnacle~

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## marcus300

> I ran Prop/Tren (extreme doses) for 21 days.The volume was tough to do,but well worth it for me.I was doing shots in places I never though I would.When the smoke cleared,I kept a little over 8 pounds.Not bad for 21 days
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Excellent work pinn, thanks for your imput :Wink/Grin:

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## Prime

> primming the body before a short heavy cycle is one of the most important thing you can do especailly with this theory, you diet down and lose fat, just like a comp diet or ive also found better way of priming by cycling the carbs 3 low 1 high this will create a very anabolic emviroment for muscle tissue to grow, the muscle receptors get highly excitable and upgrade and able to accept more glucose and because glucose levels are not full in the muscle the result is more deposited into the muscle instead of fat cells which creates an enviroment to build muscle tissue very quickley, if this is done correcty and AAS+GH are combined and timed right when you start this heavy short cycle, growth is amazing,
> 
> When you are priming you must increase your protein/aminos to compensate any canabolisum of the muscle tissue, its a fine line as am sure some know! What you do is take advantage of all the rebound effect, this shuttles the nutrients direct to the muscles this coupled with ASS+GH+intense training program+increased amounts of food = hugh muscle tissue gains FACT.


It's a very interesting concept. As i'm only pulling from my own experience and have not ever taken steroids i suppose what you say makes sence, but is an idea and approach completley alien to anything i have been doing as my approach has had to be different in the past.
I will certinaly be paying attention to this thread and any further threads on this topic.

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## marcus300

> It's a very interesting concept. As i'm only pulling from my own experience and have not ever taken steroids i suppose what you say makes sence, but is an idea and approach completley alien to anything i have been doing as my approach has had to be different in the past.
> I will certinaly be paying attention to this thread and any further threads on this topic.


By all means research and look into this way of cycling, but if you havent ever used gear this type of cycling is not for you,

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## IBdmfkr

Is there a specific BF one should shoot for before running one of these cycles Marcus? 

Also, do you start the GH before-hand or all at once with the anabolics at an increased dosage?

Thx

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## Pinnacle

> Excellent work pinn, thanks for your imput


No worries marcus..my pleasure :Smilie: 


I'd like to stress one point here.If anyone takes anything from this thread,it should be the priming protocol.This should be done before every cycle,whether it be a standard 12 week cycle,or a short burst cycle.Most ppl tend to ignore the pre cycle diet.This is crucial for maximum growth.Prime your body guys.It works.I've been doing it long before I started reading about these short burst cycles.I first heard of this from articles written by dorian yates in the mid 90's.He used this protocol to his advantage.The day after a contest,he'd be in the game training his ass off,while others were taking time off after the contest.He was a huge believer in the rebound effect from hard-core dieting.So once again.No matter what type cycle you do.Always prime your body before hand for 6-8 weeks.

Body fat percentages make no difference( to a certain degree) .It's all about priming your body.

~Pinnacle~

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## marcus300

> Is there a specific BF one should shoot for before running one of these cycles Marcus? 
> 
> Also, do you start the GH before-hand or all at once with the anabolics at an increased dosage?
> 
> Thx


No there isnt any specific BF you should be before running on of these cycles, if you prime the body beforehand correctly lets say 6-8wks, the prime will reduce the BF drasticly, its the enviroment what you have created what makes so amazing gains, the prime just puts you in a better place to grow very quickley, this is the time take of advantage of.

As for GH, well am still gathering studies on this subject, all i can give you is what experience's BB's have had, i personaly stopped my gh before i stated the cycle, i had i think about 12 wks off the GH, then i use the 4 on 4 off approach as soon as i started the cycle along with all the other stuff, i feel you need to give the body a rest and then attack it hard and fast,

ive also had BB's who was running GH at around 4ius ED before the cycle, and they upped the dose alot and they still gain very well, id say the jury is still out on that one, looking at all the results over the years id say GH EOD would be the way to go,and personanly id stop all compounds of any kind beforehand and just use every natural substances to keep the gains or at least stop them going

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## Prime

> By all means research and look into this way of cycling, but if you havent ever used gear this type of cycling is not for you,


no but it's always a good idea to plan ahead.

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## marcus300

> No worries marcus..my pleasure
> 
> 
> I'd like to stress one point here.If anyone takes anything from this thread,it should be the priming protocol.This should be done before every cycle,whether it be a standard 12 week cycle,or a short burst cycle.Most ppl tend to ignore the pre cycle diet.This is crucial for maximum growth.Prime your body guys.It works.I've been doing it long before I started reading about these short burst cycles.I first heard of this from articles written by dorian yates in the mid 90's.He used this protocol to his advantage.The day after a contest,he'd be in the game training his ass off,while others were taking time off after the contest.He was a huge believer in the rebound effect from hard-core dieting.So once again.No matter what type cycle you do.Always prime your body before hand for 6-8 weeks.
> 
> Body fat percentages make no difference( to a certain degree) .It's all about priming your body.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Thanks pinn, your correct the prime is one of the most important things BB can do for gains, it doesnt have to be just with a short cycle, Dorian was a big believer in the prime as pinn stated and he use the short cycle theory to his advantage, if you look back at his photos he grow very quickley in a short period of time, theres some black at white pics knocking about what just show the difference within a year,

also like to state its the training which also makes a drastic difference, with the prime and this theory,

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## Pinnacle

> also like to state its the training which also makes a drastic difference, with the prime and this theory,


Very true marcus.It has to be some form of HIT.The standard 5 days a week ..tons of sets routine won't cut it in this type protocol.This training style I'm a big believer in too.I certainly wish I would have listened to the guys(who were preaching this to me) when I was younger.Less is def more....

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## marcus300

> Very true marcus.It has to be some form of HIT.The standard 5 days a week ..tons of sets routine won't cut it in this type protocol.This training style I'm a big believer in too.I certainly wish I would have listened to the guys(who were preaching this to me) when I was younger.Less is def more....


excellent post pinn,

With this theory you can put everything into it for 30 days but you couldnt do that for lets say 12 weeks, its impossible no matter what compounds you are taking, you can mentaly get ready for the punishment and put 24/7 dedication into it, very intense training, very mentaly demanding but the gains coupled with everything ive said, are outstanding.

Its not just the AAS what make this work its the whole package

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## IBdmfkr

Reason I was mentioning the GH before hand was from the anticatabolic effect it can give on a restricted diet. Just figured it would be more beneficial to run it at a smaller dosage up until the cycle to hold muscle mass.

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## marcus300

> Reason I was mentioning the GH before hand was from the anticatabolic effect it can give on a restricted diet. Just figured it would be more beneficial to run it at a smaller dosage up until the cycle to hold muscle mass.


Yes very true, alot do run at a low dose then up it from the start, trial and error and see what works best for yourself, :Wink/Grin:

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## Black R/T

Marcus
you should go on all day about priming, write a thread about it. im sure others would like to see the same thing.

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## Seattle Junk

Maybe I didn't read enough but do you do 1 month on, 1 month off with PCT and repeat? It makes a lot of sense and I will try it with my next cycle for sure. Your HPTA can't get too supressed after 4 hard weeks, can it?

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## Seattle Junk

> Marcus
> you should go on all day about priming, write a thread about it. im sure others would like to see the same thing.


I basically "primed" before my current test e/EQ cycle with DNP and a clean diet. I will no longer go in at a higher bf% when starting a cycle. I agree with priming 100%.

----------


## goose

> Thanks pinn, your correct the prime is one of the most important things BB can do for gains, it doesnt have to be just with a short cycle, Dorian was a big believer in the prime as pinn stated and he use the short cycle theory to his advantage, if you look back at his photos he grow very quickley in a short period of time, theres some black at white pics knocking about what just show the difference within a year,
> 
> also like to state its the training which also makes a drastic difference, with the prime and this theory,



Dorian was Extremely advanced in the diet deparment in the 90`s, Dorian Yates would whittle from 300-pounds to a contest ripped 260-pounds by imperceptibly reducing his calories from 6,000 a day to 3,500. He reduced gradually, taking 12-weeks to peak. If he dipped below 3,500 calories, hard-earned muscle would evaporate. At 290 Dorian could walk his twin Dobermans at top speed and achieve an 80% age-related heart rate. He was famous for lifting bar-bending poundage yet his food selections were surprisingly normal
Dorians pre-competition cut diet (eating at his strictest) seems hardly inhumane. The key is the type of foods, the timing of ingestion and the mixing of the various foods together. Everything within the diet is selected and prepared and placed for a specific reason.
Dorian kept his fat consumption to a realistic (for a pro bodybuilder) 15 to 20% of total calories. He would train in the afternoon and as soon as his brutal training session was over he would re-supply his body with exactly what it needed in the form of a protein/carb shake. He wanted to retain as much of his awesome muscle mass as possible and not consume a single calorie more than necessary to do that! By hovering at the caloric balance point and using the caloric cost of exercise to create a negative energy balance, fat was systematically burned to cover caloric shortfall. He would keep this methodical regimentation up for 12 straight weeks, every single day, without a single break. In order to have his body fat level down to 2-3% on the day of competition, he would maintain a decent number of calories in the face of dramatically increased physical activity: more cardio, more lifting, longer session with poundage designed to etch and shape final muscular detail  the bulk building phase ended months ago,a brutal yet truly amazing method he Executed to compete with the yanks.

goose4..

----------


## marcus300

> Maybe I didn't read enough but do you do 1 month on, 1 month off with PCT and repeat? It makes a lot of sense and I will try it with my next cycle for sure. Your HPTA can't get too supressed after 4 hard weeks, can it?


you dont need to go back on a short heavy cycle after pct, normaly you go on a maintenance cycle very mild one, which you still respond to because your system wasnt so supressed and its fully recoverd, alot of pro's do keep rotating the theory but you dont need to unless your at top level.

----------


## goose

Marcus my main man-

Approx how many 30 day blitz cycles would you perform a year? What`s a good number for you?

goose4..

----------


## marcus300

> Marcus my main man-
> 
> Approx how many 30 day blitz cycles would you perform a year? What`s a good number for you?
> 
> goose4..


i normaly always go on a maintenance cycle after my pct following a short heavy cycle, then it depends what i am planning on doing weather i go back on a short heavy one or a cutting cycle, but i wouldnt do short heavy cycles back to back, i like to maintain it and prime my body over a long time then attack it again, but i do know ppl who do one after the other. depends what your planning on doing

----------


## hosam4ever

bump

----------


## alwayson

are you guys sayin dorian yates came off often and did pct?

i find that hard to believe. 

also didn't he do slin? wouldnt that account for his mass?

----------


## PaulieM.

from what i've read about these cycles is that you run high dose juice, slin, and growth for about 3-4 weeks and then keep running low dose test and another mild anabolic for about 6 more weeks. i've thought about trying something like this, and i stay at around a gram a weeks usually, but i'll probably do this next off-season.

1ml of sauce ed 
1ml primobolan ed
200mg tri-tren eod
8-12i.u.'s of growth 5on/2off
10-15i.u. of slin pw 
after doing this for 30days i'll just run 500mg enanthate and 200primo for 6 weeks or so.

----------


## alwayson

if thats the case maybe I can see the wisdom

I wish marcus could IM me a sample cycle so i can see how this works

And i want an idealized hardcore Dorian Yates year long cycle as well!

----------


## AleX-69

> RUBBISH.....This is the problem,people posting absolute BS.
> 
> Have you used a long ester in a short cycle?.....Well I have,Test E,in a 30 day cycle for the first 18 days,exactly the time when I gained 14lbs,all of which I have retained.
> 
> So please refrain from posting information which is incorrect it is misleading to others.


To get things clear: I NEVER said long esters wouldn't work in a short cylce, did I? It is a fact that they do work, that is why I outlined a sample cycle using a long estered test.
BUT nevertheless i feel it is better to use faster acting aas during a short cycle, especially for a newbie who does not know how he might react to a super high frontload of an longer acting aas (Test E.) Using faster acting aas is just the safer way to go IMHO - at least for unexpierenced users.

I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## marcus300

> from what i've read about these cycles is that you run high dose juice, slin, and growth for about 3-4 weeks and then keep running low dose test and another mild anabolic for about 6 more weeks. i've thought about trying something like this, and i stay at around a gram a weeks usually, but i'll probably do this next off-season.
> 
> 1ml of sauce ed 
> 1ml primobolan ed
> 200mg tri-tren eod
> 8-12i.u.'s of growth 5on/2off
> 10-15i.u. of slin pw 
> after doing this for 30days i'll just run 500mg enanthate and 200primo for 6 weeks or so.


What you are talking about in the above is not what ive been saying, i would read the whole thread, ive tried to make it as clear as possible, doing 3-4 weeks high dose cycle then follow that with 6 more weeks is 9-10 week cycle, *This is not what ive been trying to explain*, the whole idea is to create an enviroment in which muscle tissue will grow at a fast rate (priming) then hit your system hard for around 30 days, come totaly off recover and maintain and plan for the following cycles and preper your body again with priming.

usualy the following cycle would be just a maintenance cycle or cutter which would involve very mild dose something like what you would use for the 6 weeks following the above cycle,but NOT straight after the heavy dose cycle, all the above is a 9-10 wk cycle starting off heavy, also the dose is wrong. 

There are a few people who would do a low dose bridge but these people are very advanced and have to do this to compete at the level they are at, or because they are on HRT earlier than they should be because of the long term use of AAS, these peoples cycles are worked out differently because they have to take in consideration the HRT dose to work out the dose for the short heavy cycle.

*Please re- read the whole thread it does try to explain it*

Marcus

----------


## marcus300

> To get things clear: I NEVER said long esters wouldn't work in a short cylce, did I? It is a fact that they do work, that is why I outlined a sample cycle using a long estered test.
> BUT nevertheless i feel it is better to use faster acting aas during a short cycle, especially for a newbie who does not know how he might react to a super high frontload of an longer acting aas (Test E.) Using faster acting aas is just the safer way to go IMHO - at least for unexpierenced users.
> 
> I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way...


*A newbie shouldnt be doing this type of cycle, the BB should know how he reacts to all compounds, this type of cycling is not for the unexpierenced.*

----------


## AleX-69

> I like Tren and I like d-bol and especially for a shorty. YES NEWBIE you can use these strong androgens and NO Tren is not hard on the kidneys(myth). 
> 
> Some guys think I am nuts for recommending Tren for a first cycle and they say it is too harsh.... but most of the same bro's will recommend a long cycle of test/d-bol for a newbie and I can assure you that a long cycle of test/d-bol is going to give you more sides than a shorty with Tren and d-bol. Bro's test is just as "harsh" as Tren and it causes a good deal of water retention, with resultant increase in BP(bad in some bro's) unless you use an estrogen inhibitor....and shit test/d-bol stacks are WAY "harsher" than Tren. 
> 
> The only issue with Tren is the frequent injecting required.....but I know some of you newbies have been researching for a long time and are fine with the idea of frequent injections(they aren't that bad!)


@marcus

I'm sure *YOUR* short cycle approch isn't suited for steroid newbies. But nevertheless short cycles in general are - as it is stated above.
I don't think there is something wrong taking prop & d-bol in *reasonable* amounts for 4 weeks as a newbie. In fact the chances of getting harsh side effects are lower than on a traditional 12weeker + recovery post cycle will be a lot easier.
The dosages RG recommends for newbies are in no way extraordinary. 75mg test prop a day - thats 525mg a week.
While 500mg/week would be the norm for a traditional 12 week newbie cycle. 
Go figure who would have more side effects. 

Just to make it clear once more. *I totally agree that running short cycles with a boatload of gear is in no way suited for a newbie.* 
But a reasonable dosed short cylce might be even better suited for a newbie than a tradtional 12 week cycle.

----------


## marcus300

> @marcus
> 
> I'm sure *YOUR* short cycle approch isn't suited for steroid newbies. But nevertheless short cycles in general are - as it is stated above.
> I don't think there is something wrong taking prop & d-bol in *reasonable* amounts for 4 weeks as a newbie. In fact the chances of getting harsh side effects are lower than on a traditional 12weeker + recovery post cycle will be a lot easier.
> The dosages RG recommends for newbies are in no way extraordinary. 75mg test prop a day - thats 525mg a week.
> While 500mg/week would be the norm for a traditional 12 week newbie cycle. 
> Go figure who would have more side effects. 
> 
> Just to make it clear once more. *I totally agree that running short cycles with a boatload of gear is in no way suited for a newbie.* 
> But a reasonable dosed short cylce might be even better suited for a newbie than a tradtional 12 week cycle.


i understand what your talking about, i just wanted to make it clear to everybody reading this thread that its NOT what am saying, its a different appoach, this theory i relate to is not for the newbi,

but fully understand your appoach for the newbi :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Xtralarg

> To get things clear: I NEVER said long esters wouldn't work in a short cylce, did I? It is a fact that they do work, that is why I outlined a sample cycle using a long estered test.
> BUT nevertheless i feel it is better to use faster acting aas during a short cycle, especially for a newbie who does not know how he might react to a super high frontload of an longer acting aas (Test E.) Using faster acting aas is just the safer way to go IMHO - at least for unexpierenced users.
> 
> I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way...


Yes you did and i quote you 
'but test e isn't that usefull in a short cycle due to the esters longlivity'

please explain?

You say it is better to use short esters,have you tried both short and long in short cycles?...well I and other i know personlly have and let me tell you the results from long esters are just as good as the ones from short ones so please explain your statement.

I ask you to do so because the are far to many people giving advise who have nothing to back it up with and that is misleading to others who are trying to learn,it should be stopped.If you cant back it up then dont say it.

----------


## AleX-69

> i understand what your talking about, i just wanted to make it clear to everybody reading this thread that its NOT what am saying, its a different appoach, this theory i relate to is not for the newbi,
> 
> but fully understand your appoach for the newbi


Glad we sorted that out!  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## europeman

so for example, i first cut for 8 weeks or so, use a little dnp in the middle to refresh the receptors than do a 4 week heavy cycle like:

day 1-30 500mg sust 
day 1-30 100mg d-bol 
day 1-30 200mg drol 
day 1-30 350mg tren A or E 
day 1-30 400mcg igfL3 ED (done it before gained 18 KILO) from 100 to 118 kilo

than come of for a week or 5

than a low dose cycle like:

week 1-7 100 mg prop ed
week 1-7 50 mg winny ed

----------


## AleX-69

> Yes you did and i quote you 
> 'but test e isn't that usefull in a short cycle due to the esters longlivity'
> 
> please explain?
> 
> You say it is better to use short esters,have you tried both short and long in short cycles?...well I and other i know personlly have and let me tell you the results from long esters are just as good as the ones from short ones so please explain your statement.
> 
> I ask you to do so because the are far to many people giving advise who have nothing to back it up with and that is misleading to others who are trying to learn,it should be stopped.If you cant back it up then dont say it.


I know where you are coming from. 
So I will admit that i have NEVER used a long estered AAS in a short cycle (and probably never will). My statment concering the longer estered AAS was based on theory and conclusions i draw reading RG articels in the past. Even though i never questioned that long estered roids would have an effect in short cycles I am suprised that the results seem to be just as good as with short esters( i assume you have done both).
So in fact I appreciate your info on the subject and i am glad you and booz cleared things up.  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## marcus300

Long and short esters can be used in this theory of cycling, the results are the same, normaly the long ester would be used at the beginning of the cycle for 1-15 days then swapped with the short ester for the remaining duration, if you prefer to use short esters all the way through thats fine but long ester can be used on this theory, people shouldnt get confused between this theory and a standard short cycle which as been mentioned last couple of post's.

Remember its the priming+AAS+GH+intense training+ diet what makes this all come together, if you get all the above right huge muscle tissue gains can be obtained.

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## europeman

so you are only using the gh for a month?

----------


## marcus300

> so you are only using the gh for a month?


GH can be used beforehand and afterwards but for the duration of the heavy short cycle it should be run at a high dose, GH as many benefits for running it in the prime and pct!!

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## The_Bezerker

hey marcus, great thread so far, i am interested in what you have to say so far and am very curious about this PB theory and would love to personally talk to you in the upcomming weeks about helping me set up a cycle but right now i have to disagree with the "30 day cycle". I hope you can shed some light on this for me.

the point of a 30 day cycle is to regard inhibition i assume. But heres where i am getting confused 

on a cycle that needs adequate doses to support muscluar growth it takes about 2 weeks for the hypothalmus to become inhibiited, so i doesnt produce any LHRH, now the pititary is not inhibited, it is in fact sensitized to LHRH. However after another 2 weeks the pituitary becomes inhibited to the point that if there is any LHRH present it will not produce an LH now this a much stronger type of inhibition one that requires good pct to correct. Basically at this point the inhibition is the same as a 8 week cycle.

so wouldnt it make more sense to run 2 weeks 4 weeks off with a bridge of slin, IGF-1,growth, instead of running a 4 week cycle because you can avoid the inhibition of the pitituary by staying on for 2 weeks

----------


## marcus300

> hey marcus, great thread so far, i am interested in what you have to say so far and am very curious about this PB theory and would love to personally talk to you in the upcomming weeks about helping me set up a cycle but right now i have to disagree with the "30 day cycle". I hope you can shed some light on this for me.
> 
> the point of a 30 day cycle is to regard inhibition i assume. But heres where i am getting confused 
> 
> on a cycle that needs adequate doses to support muscluar growth it takes about 2 weeks for the hypothalmus to become inhibiited, so i doesnt produce any LHRH, now the pititary is not inhibited, it is in fact sensitized to LHRH. However after another 2 weeks the pituitary becomes inhibited to the point that if there is any LHRH present it will not produce an LH now this a much stronger type of inhibition one that requires good pct to correct. Basically at this point the inhibition is the same as a 8 week cycle.
> 
> so wouldnt it make more sense to run 2 weeks 4 weeks off with a bridge of slin, IGF-1,growth, instead of running a 4 week cycle because you can avoid the inhibition of the pitituary by staying on for 2 weeks


All i can do is give you the experience of alot of top BB's who have ran this system, ive kept a diary with all the results and if the correct prime and gear is timed right the results are outstanding, recovery from one of these cycles are very easy, thats what every BB has told me and ive experienced it myself, i have know BB's who ran 21 days because they said they didnt really respond after day 21 on a 30 cycle, they had excellent gains but the average prefer 30 days.

Its worth thinking about your 2 wks on 4 off, infact i might just do a study and try it out for myself and see if it works as good as the 30 days, maybe the recovery is alot better!!

----------


## BOBBY D

> I use to know him, he adviced me a few years back on certain things,
> its not just PB who as talked about this theory Dan Duchaine, Jeff Summers, have also used it and studied it with great success,
> 
> PB has a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function, his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders, he also transform the world aids victims and how we can substain life longer with steriod applications,top pro's ask PB for advice on stacks and cycles just to name one was DY who was under PB arm durring his Olympia battles,
> 
> i also know that Dorian said in interviews that he had nothing to do with PB or his theorys, but Dorian was pushed to say these things because of his sponsers, he still was in contact with him for years tho.
> *he also didnt die due to his steriod use, he broke his back in an accident which made him use pain killers so he could train again, he overdosed on the pain killers.*
> I think you can buy his books and videos online, just to name two of them-
> 
> ...


in bold was concerning me.. who died? Dorian Yates OR PB? if so wow!! what is PB'S full name.. thanks guys, good thread by the way marcus.. im looking into it down the road...

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## novicenovicen

On a short burst, heavy aas like you indicate would it be more beneficial for one to use both long and short esters? Or better to stick with just one. (Also this is out of curiosity and my need to obtain knowledge, I am not ready for this yet)

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## marcus300

Bobby D, PB died not Dorian, sorry if it looked confusing,

Novicenoviecen, This is personal preference, i prefer to use long ester at the start and finish on a short, use the one which you respond best to, either stick with one all the way through or use 2 esters long and short,

----------


## needbigguns

I would not class my self as being very advanced more of intermediate...I can still gain off 500mgs of test stacked with other compounds..the short cycle theory has allways interested me and im keen to try it...My next cycle will be my 3rd but my question is - Allthough i can still gain from 500mg of Test + Other compounds, if i run a heavy dose of test with other compounds in a short cycle would this mean i needed to up my dosage from 500mg the next time i run a normal cycle...

I would be interested to try a short blitz cutting cycle comming up to the summer, my goals would be obviously as much mass as possible but geting as ripped as a mother fu*ker...Could someone PM me a short summer 30 day cycle with those goals in mind

----------


## BOBBY D

> Bobby D, PB died not Dorian, sorry if it looked confusing,
> 
> Novicenoviecen, This is personal preference, i prefer to use long ester at the start and finish on a short, use the one which you respond best to, either stick with one all the way through or use 2 esters long and short,


thanks marcus for clearing it up. what is P.B.'s full name.. i might pick up the books mentioned on the first page.

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## novicenovicen

marcus thankyou for the reply. though I would have thought a 1/2 prop 1/2 ethan for the first 2 weeks, then prop only. But thats why your the pro.

----------


## BOBBY D

marcus, i always wanted to ask this, is that u in the avatar? if so GOD BLESS!!!

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## marcus300

Bobby ive pm you some details you require, thanks for your positive comments

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## fitguy

hey marcus ,can you outline a sample 30day cycle, just curious .. peace bro

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## Pinnacle

> hey marcus ,can you outline a sample 30day cycle, just curious .. peace bro


Marcus..PLEASE DO NOT ACCOMODATE THESE KIDS

I also hope you are screening your PM's carefully.I've had quite a few enquiries and I went back and looked at thier posts to find out they've only had ONE cycle under thier belt.Needless to say,their PM's were deleted.
Granted,this is a nice topic of dicussion,but I really don't feel it's safe to keep pushing these short cycles on this board .There are far to many young newbies here,and someone is going to get hurt.
I'm seeing questions pop up in other forums on this board in regard to short cycle.In the lab a kid recently asked how to put 5 compounds in a 1cc solution so he can run a short cycle like you've been tallking about.As much as you try to stress this isn't for newbies,the more it's talked about,the odds are some kid is going to try this type cycle and really fvk himself up.Look at some of the ppl asking in this thread marcus.They don't have but one or 2 cycles under thier belt.Knowledge is fine,but to keep on pushing this type cycling on a newbie board such as this,is rather dangerous IMO...

~Pinnacle~

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## sp9

Marcus, Great read. I am glad I finally ran across this. I understand what you are doing, but for me this is too advanced. I can see how this would benefit the dedicated bodybuilder. The average joe could really harm himself, because life events would constantly interupt the type of dedication needed here. I hope people understand there is a difference between spending commited time and strategies to acheive competitive advantages and the novice or intermediate person. 

I love to hear these strategies of the serious body builder. Thanks for the info.

sp9

----------


## alwayson

i'm expecting a PM from you Marcus!

----------


## Pinnacle

Here's another case in point.This advice was given tonight to a *NEWBIE* asking about a tren only cycle.Mind you,a fvkin' newbie was being told to do a short burst,high dose cycle.This is why this topic is very dangerous for this board.

Today, 08:44 PM 
groundandpoundpwr21  
Member



Fina only is a great cycle and one of the easiest to keep gains off of. Id say if its your first time with fina 50-75mg INJECTION every other day would be fine. *Also after reading marcuses burst cycle post hit up fina for 6 weeks* with standard 




Need I say more?

~Pinnacle~

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## IBdmfkr

> i'm expecting a PM from you Marcus!


As are probably 20 other ppl. Why don't you guys leave him alone and pick up the two books he mentioned in this thread, why is nobody willing to do any research but rather go off of somebodies word they have never met. Not targeting you "alwayson" as I don't know you, but everyone in general that jumps in excitement when a new theory or idea is introduced by a VET or senior member. If he said take 10grams of Test/wk I bet half of these guys would do it, no questions asked.

----------


## AleX-69

> Here's another case in point.This advice was given tonight to a *NEWBIE* asking about a tren only cycle.Mind you,a fvkin' newbie was being told to do a short burst,high dose cycle.This is why this topic is very dangerous for this board.
> 
> Today, 08:44 PM 
> groundandpoundpwr21  
> Member
> 
> 
> 
> Fina only is a great cycle and one of the easiest to keep gains off of. Id say if its your first time with fina 50-75mg INJECTION every other day would be fine. *Also after reading marcuses burst cycle post hit up fina for 6 weeks* with standard 
> ...


I suppose it might be a bit confusing for some that there are 2 diffrent approches to the same theory within this thread. So some might come to the conclusion that marcus' short heavy burst cycle is *also* suited for newbies..
Nevertheless I am with you on this one... Maybe you should simply delete this thread b4 someone gets hurt...  :No No:

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## Reprisal 6

> I suppose it might be a bit confusing for some that there are 2 diffrent approches to the same theory within this thread. So some might come to the conclusion that marcus' short heavy burst cycle is *also* suited for newbies..
> Nevertheless I am with you on this one... Maybe you should simply delete this thread b4 someone gets hurt...



This has been one of the more interesting topics in a while. I'd hate to see it go because a few people may get in over their head with these ideas. Quite frankly, this isn't the first time dangerous advise has been circulated from newbie to newbie. I think a fair warning has been given repeatedly. 

Either way, thanks to everyone who contributed.

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## marcus300

PI


> Marcus..PLEASE DO NOT ACCOMODATE THESE KIDS
> 
> I also hope you are screening your PM's carefully.I've had quite a few enquiries and I went back and looked at thier posts to find out they've only had ONE cycle under thier belt.Needless to say,their PM's were deleted.
> Granted,this is a nice topic of dicussion,but I really don't feel it's safe to keep pushing these short cycles on this board .There are far to many young newbies here,and someone is going to get hurt.
> I'm seeing questions pop up in other forums on this board in regard to short cycle.In the lab a kid recently asked how to put 5 compounds in a 1cc solution so he can run a short cycle like you've been tallking about.As much as you try to stress this isn't for newbies,the more it's talked about,the odds are some kid is going to try this type cycle and really fvk himself up.Look at some of the ppl asking in this thread marcus.They don't have but one or 2 cycles under thier belt.Knowledge is fine,but to keep on pushing this type cycling on a newbie board such as this,is rather dangerous IMO...
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Pinn- *I DONT ACCOMODATE ANY KIDS*

I do my best to screen all the PM's and only give any kind of info to the ones who are educated enough,ive said it many times on alot of my posts that is not for any newbies, i dont keep pushing anything all i do is give information on this theory, i do understand that some might be stupid enough to even consider it and that is why i DONT post any dosages or cycles.

This is a great topic and very educational to the advance BB who has never used this system, I dont think anyone will get hurt because ive not told anyone to do anything, infact i feel other threads could be far more dangerous than this one, one example would be the thread about staying on for 5-7 years non stop, now i think that could really damage newbies. I state again i do not push anything its information.

The trouble what as happened is recently in the last few post other BB's have mentioned about short cycles for the newbies, which is nothing to do with this thread, i have stated this when it was posted, this is why recently people have been mentioning short cycle for the newbies.

*THIS WAY OF CYCLING IS NOT FOR THE NEWBIE , ITS FOR THE ADVANCE BODYBUILDER WHO KNOWS HOW HIS BODY REACTS TO GEAR AND HAS PLENTY OF EXPERIENCE UNDER HIS BELT*.


This thread is not pushing this system onto newbies, its for information to advanced bodybuilders,

Pinn, i asure you that i wont give any kind of dosages to any newbie, i thought you knew me better than that :Wink/Grin:  

Is that drink still on offer?? :7up:

----------


## marcus300

> As are probably 20 other ppl. Why don't you guys leave him alone and pick up the two books he mentioned in this thread, why is nobody willing to do any research but rather go off of somebodies word they have never met. Not targeting you "alwayson" as I don't know you, but everyone in general that jumps in excitement when a new theory or idea is introduced by a VET or senior member. If he said take 10grams of Test/wk I bet half of these guys would do it, no questions asked.


wise words,Fair comment :Wink/Grin:  Thanks.

This theory is not NEW its been around for years and has been used by many top BB's.

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## marcus300

> hey marcus ,can you outline a sample 30day cycle, just curious .. peace bro


*I will not post dosages or cycles on this thread, its only for the advanced bodybuilder who knows what he is doing*

----------


## AleX-69

> The trouble what as happened is recently in the last few post other BB's have mentioned about short cycles for the newbies, which is nothing to do with this thread, i have stated this when it was posted, this is why recently people have been mentioning short cycle for the newbies.


Well that is exactly how i feel + i think this was mostly my fault. Some people just can't differentiate between two diffrent approches to the same theory.

Actually i do have 2 more "articles" i would have posted in this thread concering moderate dose short cycles. 
But i don't know if it would make matters worse  :Wink/Grin:  .. 
On the other hand I could start a comlpletly new thread (something like "Moderate Dose Burst Cycles - Newbies this is for you"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  )to clear things up. Whats your opinion on that marcus...?

----------


## marcus300

> Well that is exactly how i feel + i think this was mostly my fault. Some people just can't differentiate between two diffrent approches to the same theory.
> 
> Actually i do have 2 more "articles" i would have posted in this thread concering moderate dose short cycles. 
> But i don't know if it would make matters worse  .. 
> On the other hand I could start a comlpletly new thread (something like "Moderate Dose Burst Cycles - Newbies this is for you"  )to clear things up. Whats your opinion on that marcus...?


That would be better to start a new thread regarding your cycle for newbies,
i fully understand what your talking about and i have some good experiences with such short cycle but its nothing to do with this type of cycling,

At least we have cleared the air abit,

regards marcus

----------


## AleX-69

So I started a new thread http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=225586

marcus and others feel free to add your comments and expierences with that kind of cycling. 

regards

----------


## marcus300

> This has been one of the more interesting topics in a while. I'd hate to see it go because a few people may get in over their head with these ideas. Quite frankly, this isn't the first time dangerous advise has been circulated from newbie to newbie. I think a fair warning has been given repeatedly. 
> 
> Either way, thanks to everyone who contributed.


Exactly, their as been plenty of warnings that this is not for the newbie, its only for the advanced.

One of the best thing a newbie can take from my thread is the prime before a cycle, this is very important and has huge advantages

----------


## stupidhippo

My question is.. as it is argued here that these short cycles are better for your lipid profile I would like some clarification.. It is argued that in 4 weeks (or whatever) the profile doesnt go as bad.. what Im thinking is then does the time off give enough time for the lipid profile to normalize and most importantly has anyone taken frequent bloodworks during this kind of cycling. I personally doubt it is enough that ur values have normalized if they then get messed up pretty soon after.. that would mean they would not be normal for most of the time. Many ppl here seem to think that if they are on for a long time and then they get off and have bloodwork done, and it comes back ok, then they are set to go another cycle..

----------


## marcus300

> My question is.. as it is argued here that these short cycles are better for your lipid profile I would like some clarification.. It is argued that in 4 weeks (or whatever) the profile doesnt go as bad.. what Im thinking is then does the time off give enough time for the lipid profile to normalize and most importantly has anyone taken frequent bloodworks during this kind of cycling. I personally doubt it is enough that ur values have normalized if they then get messed up pretty soon after.. that would mean they would not be normal for most of the time. Many ppl here seem to think that if they are on for a long time and then they get off and have bloodwork done, and it comes back ok, then they are set to go another cycle..


This type of short cycle theory is better on your system, alot of my studies have had their blood work done and they all said that they recovered quicker than the cycles they were doing beforehand, the damage accours when you stay on gear to long, your body gets use to the hormones and shuts itself down and recovery is very hard work, maybe not when your younger as much but as you get older and try to come off the recovery is really hard and usually HRT comes sooner than expected or you end up going back on, then you have to increase the dose to try and get new muscle growth.i personaly stay on pct until ive fully recovered, no matter what time scale it is.

*If your prime the body correctly and get the gear in and out in a short period then its far better on your system,* and before your body can respond with side effects your off and recovering, i understand people will recover at different rates but in most they recover alot quicker and better, am not saying go straight back on a cycle when your blood work is correct, i would rather prime my body over a long time then repeat a cycle but normaly the one that follows the heavy short cycle is a mild one, i do know BB's who go straight back on after a heavy cycle when there blood work is fine but these BB's are competeing at a high class and its their disission.

All i can say is if your advance enough and have plenty of expeirence in gear and training give one a go and see if they are for you, most people are very stunned with the results of how much new muscle tissue can be obtained if the correct tools are applied.

Regards marcus

----------


## stupidhippo

I agree with that logic but I meant about its effect on the lipid profile, I was talking about that.. IMO the biggest long term risk of steroid use aint HRT.. I am not an expert and I am curious.. Thats why I asked has anybody taken frequent blood profiles and Im especially interested in the lipid profile. Im looking into new ideas and if indeed it would be so that this type of cycling would be less damaging to the lipid profile as a whole (in long term) it might be safer IMO. Im not doubting this kind of cycling would be effective.. that makes perfect sense for me.

----------


## needbigguns

Not trying to hi-jack but how about Short Moderate cycles as opposed to Heavy...do they work, dos anyone have any experiance with them ? Im interested tp try a shorty but am not yet advanced enough to use very high dosages...

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=225674

I like the idea of being able to cycle throughout the year more safely...Is there any evidence to prove this ?

I also enjoy being on and i think its easyer to train intensly for 1 month solid with everything in check that 12 weeks,

----------


## AleX-69

> I agree with that logic but I meant about its effect on the lipid profile, I was talking about that.. IMO the biggest long term risk of steroid use aint HRT.. I am not an expert and I am curious.. Thats why I asked has anybody taken frequent blood profiles and Im especially interested in the lipid profile. Im looking into new ideas and if indeed it would be so that this type of cycling would be less damaging to the lipid profile as a whole (in long term) it might be safer IMO. Im not doubting this kind of cycling would be effective.. that makes perfect sense for me.


I had bloodwork done the last cycle after 3 weeks in. The HDL / LDL ratio was way off. So i don't think short cycles can prevent worsening of the blood lipid profile.
But I *think* the real benefit lies in the short amount of time the lipid profile is actually bad. As i believe it takes some time until fatty deposits build up in the arteries and therby causing adverse health effects (i.e. arteriosclerosis).

----------


## stupidhippo

ok.. so imagine then that if u get back on after say 30 days it ends up so that ur levels are gonna be way off for most of the time and that IMO could lead to an increased risk.. So which is better.. doing a 3 month cycle were ur values are off for about that long and then being off for the same amount leaving some time for normaliztion and more importantly time when they stay normal.. or then the short way.. I really dont know but am interested in opinions.

----------


## vitor

> This type of short cycle theory is better on your system, alot of my studies have had their blood work done and they all said that they recovered quicker than the cycles they were doing beforehand, the damage accours when you stay on gear to long, your body gets use to the hormones and shuts itself down and recovery is very hard work, maybe not when your younger as much but as you get older and try to come off the recovery is really hard and usually HRT comes sooner than expected or you end up going back on, then you have to increase the dose to try and get new muscle growth.i personaly stay on pct until ive fully recovered, no matter what time scale it is.
> 
> *If your prime the body correctly and get the gear in and out in a short period then its far better on your system,* and before your body can respond with side effects your off and recovering, i understand people will recover at different rates but in most they recover alot quicker and better, am not saying go straight back on a cycle when your blood work is correct, i would rather prime my body over a long time then repeat a cycle but normaly the one that follows the heavy short cycle is a mild one, i do know BB's who go straight back on after a heavy cycle when there blood work is fine but these BB's are competeing at a high class and its their disission.
> 
> All i can say is if your advance enough and have plenty of expeirence in gear and training give one a go and see if they are for you, most people are very stunned with the results of how much new muscle tissue can be obtained if the correct tools are applied.
> 
> Regards marcus


Greate post!

What do you think of the 2on 4off theory. Yust read a case study with "Bill Roberts", (hes client seemed to have make more progress with only 4 weeks on,than he ever could achieved "natrually".)

I guess the benefit here would be that you recover HPTA very quikly.....

----------


## alwayson

> As are probably 20 other ppl. Why don't you guys leave him alone and pick up the two books he mentioned in this thread, why is nobody willing to do any research but rather go off of somebodies word they have never met. Not targeting you "alwayson" as I don't know you, but everyone in general that jumps in excitement when a new theory or idea is introduced by a VET or senior member. If he said take 10grams of Test/wk I bet half of these guys would do it, no questions asked.



don't worry about it bro...i know you are not targetting me. 

I just don't understand this theory and how it applies to me. I consider myself pretty advanced in terms of dosages and my physique.

----------


## marcus300

> ok.. so imagine then that if u get back on after say 30 days it ends up so that ur levels are gonna be way off for most of the time and that IMO could lead to an increased risk.. So which is better.. doing a 3 month cycle were ur values are off for about that long and then being off for the same amount leaving some time for normaliztion and more importantly time when they stay normal.. or then the short way.. I really dont know but am interested in opinions.


If you are on for a shorter time and you have good time off there would be less risk, ive read a study somewhere which mentions this, if your on for a long time there is increase risk to all the health problems but if you can attack the body with a shorter period and still gets results as you would with a long cycle, which one would you choose.
All the blood work results what ive seen have all been fine with correct time off

----------


## marcus300

> Greate post!
> 
> What do you think of the 2on 4off theory. Yust read a case study with "Bill Roberts", (hes client seemed to have make more progress with only 4 weeks on,than he ever could achieved "natrually".)
> 
> I guess the benefit here would be that you recover HPTA very quikly.....


Ive seen the same thing recentley, looks intresting and will be trying it out, i do have BB's who run 20 days cycles with great resuts, 
correct the benefit is recovery with same results as a long cycle.

cheers for your commets
marcus

----------


## Booz

this thread is a great read,it does not need deleting,marcus knows the newbs from the old hands!
no worries murries!! :Wink/Grin:

----------


## marcus300

> this thread is a great read,it does not need deleting,marcus knows the newbs from the old hands!
> no worries murries!!


Thanks booz for your support and comments, :Wink/Grin:

----------


## stupidhippo

> If you are on for a shorter time and you have good time off there would be less risk, ive read a study somewhere which mentions this, if your on for a long time there is increase risk to all the health problems but if you can attack the body with a shorter period and still gets results as you would with a long cycle, which one would you choose.
> All the blood work results what ive seen have all been fine with correct time off


I agree with this: shorter time on and a good time off and it should be ok BUT how long is good time off.. Is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off really enough or is it the maintenance type of cycle in between that in a way lengthens the time off (if u look at it that way).. I agree very interesting thread..

----------


## AleX-69

The short way is better IMHO, simply beacause i think i takes time to build up fatty depositis in the ateries. --> The longer your lipid profile is shitty the more adverse health effects you get.

But i don't know if i am right on this one...

----------


## fitguy

> Not trying to hi-jack but how about Short Moderate cycles as opposed to Heavy...do they work, dos anyone have any experiance with them ? Im interested tp try a shorty but am not yet advanced enough to use very high dosages...
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=225674
> 
> I like the idea of being able to cycle throughout the year more safely...Is there any evidence to prove this ?
> 
> I also enjoy being on and i think its easyer to train intensly for 1 month solid with everything in check that 12 weeks,


i was wondering the same thats why i asked for a cycle sample to know if the doses suit me or not thats all, i am not a newbie and having only a few posts on this site doesnt make me a newbie , i am a member on many other sites . i dont also consider myself advanced by anymeans thats why i was wondering if someone can apply this cycling type using lower doses and thats why i asked for a a sample cycle to be pm to me to get a rough idea of the doses and cycle layout..peace .

----------


## Pinnacle

> i was wondering the same thats why i asked for a cycle sample to know if the doses suit me or not thats all, i am not a newbie and having only a few posts on this site doesnt make me a newbie , i am a member on many other sites . i dont also consider myself advanced by anymeans thats why i was wondering if someone can apply this cycling type using lower doses and thats why i asked for a a sample cycle to be pm to me to get a rough idea of the doses and cycle layout..peace .


2 cycles pretty much makes you a newbie still...sorry to break the truth to you.

02-13-2006, 06:00 PM 
fitguy 


[quote=booz]well remind us of your stats and training exp,cycle exp?

185 cm ,78-80 kilos, looking to gain a net of 8 kilos at least from this cycle,, i have done one sustanon only cycle b4 for 9 weeks at 500mg and another test cycle and dbol at 30 mg which i stopped for hairloss problems fro the dbol i guess..

----------


## AleX-69

> I agree with this: shorter time on and a good time off and it should be ok BUT how long is good time off.. Is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off really enough or is it the maintenance type of cycle in between that in a way lengthens the time off (if u look at it that way).. I agree very interesting thread..


____________________-

Reduction in high density lipoproteins by anabolic steroid (stanozolol ) therapy for postmenopausal osteoporosis.

Taggart HM, Applebaum-Bowden D, Haffner S, Warnick GR, Cheung MC, Albers JJ, Chestnut CH 3rd, Hazzard WR.

The effects of stanozolol, 17-methyl-2H-5 alpha-androst-2-eno [3,2-c] pyrazol-17 beta-ol, on lipoprotein levels were assessed in a short-term (6 wk) prospective study of 10 normolipidemic, postmenopausal, osteoporotic women. While total cholesterol and triglyceride levels remained constant, equal and offsetting responses were seen in low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (+30.9 +/- 28.1 mg/dl [mean +/- S.D.], p less than 0.01, a 21% increase) and high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (-32.5 +/- 11.9 mg/dl [mean +/- S.D.], p less than 0.001, a 53% decline). Hence the LDL/HDL ratio increased dramatically, from 2.5 +/- 0.7 to 6.8 +/- 2.5. Within HDL, stanozolol was associated with a greater decline in HDL2 (from 26.0 +/- 7.4 mg/dl to 3.8 +/- 1.9 mg/dl, p less than 0.001, an 85% decrease) than HDL3 (which diminished from 35.7 +/- 3.2 to 24.1 +/- 5.8 mg/dl. p less than 0.001, a 35% decrease). The major HLD apolipoproteins also declined (A-I by a mean of 41% and A-II by 24%, both p less than 0.001). Postheparin hepatic triglyceride lipase increased (off treatment 74 +/- 42 nmole free fatty acid min-1 mole-1, on treatment 242 +/- 110, n = 6, p = 0.06). *All changes were reversed by 5 wk following termination of the drug.* These lipoprotein changes suggest caution in the long term prescription of stanozolol, particularly in those without overriding clinical indications for its use.

_____________________________

Regarding this study 4 weeks off may not be enough.. A longer off period would be apropiate it seems.
Really good questions stupidhippo. I appreciate that!

----------


## AleX-69

@ fitguy 

if you really insist on doing another cycle b4 you reach your natural limit look here 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=225586

all your questions are answerd there. If you would have read this thread carefully you'd know that!

----------


## goose

Nice posts Alex!!


goose4..

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## primetime1

alex: great post also, its sounds more appe****g to me for my possible next cyc.

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## AleX-69

thx guys! I appreciate iT! :7up:

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## marcus300

Emailed a friend last night who had his bloodwork done after 6 weeks fininshing a short heavy cycle the lipid profile included total cholesterol, HDL-cholesterol LDL-cholesterol and triglycerides he said it was all normal, under a long cycle he said it would take him alot longer to recover.

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## marcus300

At the moment there is alot of discussion regarding short cycles weather heavy/light/moderate, One of the factors which make short cycling so effective is the priming of the body, any short cycles will benefit from such practice, If this is done correctly than the speed of building muscle tissue can be done over a shorter period, also priming isnt just for short cycles any cycle can benefit from such practice.

marcus

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## primetime1

"When you are priming you must up your protein and aminos to compensate any catabolism"

marcus: when you say priming, you are just talkin about the diet portion or is there more details to the priming phase? 

if one were to keep the diet consistantly clean and correcltly macroed for the indivual would this priming process be neccessary?

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## marcus300

> "When you are priming you must up your protein and aminos to compensate any catabolism"
> 
> marcus: when you say priming, you are just talkin about the diet portion or is there more details to the priming phase? 
> 
> if one were to keep the diet consistantly clean and correcltly macroed for the indivual would this priming process be neccessary?


You diet down and lose fat, just like a comp diet or i prefer to cycle my carbs 3 low 1 high this will create a very anabolic emviroment for muscle tissue to grow, the muscle receptors get highly excitable and upgrade and able to accept more glucose and because glucose levels are not full in the muscle the result is more deposited into the muscle when you start the cycle and increase the food,this enviroment builds muscle tissue very quickley, if this is done correcty and timed right when you start the cycle, growth is amazing,

i prefer cycling my carbs 3 days low(40% less than normal) 1 day high (15% higher than normal), i feel this is'nt to harsh on your muscle tissue and the 1 high carb day offsets any potential metobolic slowdown, which is extremely usefull in laying down metobolic boosting muscle or at least saving it. the high carb/low carb rotational diet upgrades the receptors cites on muscle tissue for insulin , this changes the bodys ability to store carbs as glycogen rather than fat.

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## AleX-69

@ primetime

you may also want to look at the UD 2.0 diet which is rather complex but also excelent for priming..IMO.

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## Spyder

I don't understand why these kind of cycles are not ideal for bodybuilders at top levels, wasn't dorian one of them?

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## AleX-69

Heavy burst cycling is in fact very well suited for competitive BB's. I think you mixed up comments on low dose short cycling & heavy dose short cycling. 
Those are 2 diffrent approaches to the same theory.

regards

----------


## guns626

Great read, Thanks!

----------


## Spyder

> Heavy burst cycling is in fact very well suited for competitive BB's. I think you mixed up comments on low dose short cycling & heavy dose short cycling. 
> Those are 2 diffrent approaches to the same theory.
> 
> regards


Yeh i just noticed, my bad.

----------


## primetime1

marcus, thanks for breakin down the priming part i appreciate it. when you are done priming do you continue to cycle your carbs like that? or do you eat to grow? (clean)
alex, where can i find info on that diet? 

really dig the info on this thread, im leaning towards a 6 weeker for my next run in sept. so thanks to all who contributed.

----------


## IBdmfkr

Primetime, the priming process leads up until the cycle starts, then you eat like an animal.

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## primetime1

thanks for that last bit of info bro, much apprecaited.. i was figuring that when you actually went on, that youd have to eat to feed the muscles, but wasnt sure.

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## AleX-69

@ primetime

Warrior is also "UD 2.0ing". He's keepin his log right here on AR as the forums on www.bodyrecomposition.com are rather unfriendly  :LOL:  

He has outlined some basics of the diet in his thread:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=219868


Nevertheless there is an e-book / book concering UD 2.0 by lyle mcdonald. It is certainly worth reading..

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## primetime1

alex, thanks for the additional info, im goin to take a look into that tonight.

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## marcus300

> Primetime, the priming process leads up until the cycle starts, then you eat like an animal.


couldnt of put it better myself :Wink/Grin:

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## mmaximus25

Bump

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## marcus300

MMaximus25, have you tried this way of cycling or are you considering it?

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## mmaximus25

I think I understand the priming part more or less now. You are getting your body metabolically ready for the large calories to come. The large calories are taken in such a shorter period your MBR is able to stay fairly high.

I have two methods of my diet, but for normal cycles… I get my BF down to the lowest possible by a regimen of moderate protein/carb 1day, lower carb/high protein for 2 days then moderate protein / high carb... repeat 
Then while on I do a 2wk high cal (rich fats, processed carbs are ok) into a 2wk moderate but all whole food (low fat, whole carbs). The 2weeks are just enough to sustain my high BMR. (This is a diet based on the average body takes about two weeks for your Metabolism to change to any new diet, by the end of the high cal 2 wks your BMR starts to slow down, you then switch to a clean low fat whole food, where by the end you BMR is high again, going back and forth pushs your nutrient absorption hopefully higher and higher)

After one cycle my body is so use to the high cal that when I restrict the fat for those 2wks I start leaning up very quickly, BMR churning so by the time I get back to the high cal I'm absorbing a high percentage of nutrients. This type of calorie cycling is effective for me 

I'm very interested about this cycling method but still think it is much too advanced for me personally. I think I will do a larger dose cycle at the end of this year but don’t think it will be a mega dose. 

I'm currently on a semi-experimental dietary regimen that has to do with whole foods.

----------


## marcus300

> I think I understand the priming part more or less now. You are getting your body metabolically ready for the large calories to come. The large calories are taken in such a shorter period your MBR is able to stay fairly high.
> 
> I have two methods of my diet, but for normal cycles… I get my BF down to the lowest possible by a regimen of moderate protein/carb 1day, lower carb/high protein for 2 days then moderate protein / high carb... repeat 
> Then while on I do a 2wk high cal (rich fats, processed carbs are ok) into a 2wk moderate but all whole food (low fat, whole carbs). The 2weeks are just enough to sustain my high BMR. (This is a diet based on the average body takes about two weeks for your Metabolism to change to any new diet, by the end of the high cal 2 wks your BMR starts to slow down, you then switch to a clean low fat whole food, where by the end you BMR is high again, going back and forth pushs your nutrient absorption hopefully higher and higher)
> 
> After one cycle my body is so use to the high cal that when I restrict the fat for those 2wks I start leaning up very quickly, BMR churning so by the time I get back to the high cal I'm absorbing a high percentage of nutrients. This type of calorie cycling is effective for me 
> 
> I'm very interested about this cycling method but still think it is much too advanced for me personally. I think I will do a larger dose cycle at the end of this year but don’t think it will be a mega dose. 
> 
> I'm currently on a semi-experimental dietary regimen that has to do with whole foods.


I have a few ways of priming and the one which i prefer is cycling my carbs 3-4 days low (40% less than normal) 1 day high carb (15% more than normal) this method works really well for me, or i slowly reduce my carbs over a period of about 10-12 weeks which gives me a good base to work from when i do start such a high dose cycle.

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## vitor

I am going to do this type of cycling in my next run...

Havent decided if it will be the 2on 4off(outlined by Bill Roberts)or if its going to be a 4-weeker. I will probaly try both and see what works best for me.

I am really tired of being on for 12 weeks, then desperatly try to hold on to the gains with natrual test-levels for the next 12 weeks+PCT, which is impossible once you get over your genetic limit.

The short-burst cycling makes more sense to me.

----------


## marcus300

> I am going to do this type of cycling in my next run...
> 
> Havent decided if it will be the 2on 4off(outlined by Bill Roberts)or if its going to be a 4-weeker. I will probaly try both and see what works best for me.
> 
> I am really tired of being on for 12 weeks, then desperatly try to hold on to the gains with natrual test-levels for the next 12 weeks+PCT, which is impossible once you get over your genetic limit.
> 
> The short-burst cycling makes more sense to me.


Please keep me updated on your progress victor...

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## Booz

this still continues to be a great thread marcus......

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## vitor

> Please keep me updated on your progress victor...


Sure...

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## montysimon

This way of usuing AAS should be used with extreme caution no matter what your level of AAS knowledge/experience.It is also imperative that a physician is consulted prior to and at regular intervals during such.
I am aware of at least one fellow BB who's sudden *DEATH* was attributed directly to extremely high levels of AAS,thus leading to liver toxicity levels exceeding the body's capability to maltisculate.

This guy WAS 31 and left a wife and two young children.

Anyone considering shory heavy cycles please take heed.

----------


## marcus300

> This way of usuing AAS should be used with extreme caution no matter what your level of AAS knowledge/experience.It is also imperative that a physician is consulted prior to and at regular intervals during such.
> I am aware of at least one fellow BB who's sudden *DEATH* was attributed directly to extremely high levels of AAS,thus leading to liver toxicity levels exceeding the body's capability to maltisculate.
> 
> This guy WAS 31 and left a wife and two young children.
> 
> Anyone considering shory heavy cycles please take heed.


You always hear of storys like this when AAS are involved,We have no idea what else he was taking or if he used orals within the cycle, which is something what you DONT do, yes this way of cycling is only for the advanced like alot of post's state this all the way through this thread.


If your advanced BB you know how to look after yourself health wise while doing such a cycle, if you dont this cycling shouldnt be run.

----------


## rodge

have'nt followed this thread in a while so i did'nt go through all the pages(sorry) but i was talking about it with some bb'ers, and marcus and i talked about dosages in PM, and they putted questions about the level of toxity from the amount of BA you get in your body each day during the cycle.

anybody???

-rodge

----------


## marcus300

> have'nt followed this thread in a while so i did'nt go through all the pages(sorry) but i was talking about it with some bb'ers, and marcus and i talked about dosages in PM, and they putted questions about the level of toxity from the amount of BA you get in your body each day during the cycle.
> 
> anybody???
> 
> -rodge


All i can give is some feedback on the personal studies ive done and research over the last few years Rodge.

I've lost count on how many BB's have used this system and have sent me the results, but i can honestly say i havent heard of anyone having problems with toxity within the body, ive had an handfull of top BB's who have had their blood tests done before/durring/after this type of cycling and all have come back with no major problems, am not saying this will happen to everybody there are exceptions to everything but the majority feel that they are less prone to any kind of side effects because of the time on the cycle.

Normaly the cycles only last between 20-30 days at a time so every precaution can be looked at for such a short period of time, suppose the best way round this is for the individual to have blood tests before/durring/after and can assess the situration and react accordingly to the results.

This type of cycling is and looks very aggressive but you have to look at the lenght of time you are on for, the body can withstand alot of punishment before it reacts with sides effects/problems, but remember its only for a short period of time and before you know it your off the cycle recovering and maintaining the gains.

This is why i always advice BB's not to use ORALS within the cycle, the orals can cause problems ive seen this happen afew times when certain BB's who have tried using Orals, also this type of cycling isnt just about the AAS, its also the training/diet/priming and dedication what makes this cycling work so well.

Its only for the advanced BB who knows how to look after himself and watch out for any side effects so he can react accordingly, ive tried this way many times and i can honestly say that i have had less sides effect in everyway and produced more keepable gains than any other way of cycling ive done, i feel staying on a cycle for weeks on end after the gains have slowed down will cause and does cause problems within the body, and when you come off trying to keep hold of what you have gain seems an impossible task and coasting/bridging/HRT seems the only option.

Marcus

----------


## Swifto

I havent read all of this thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned. 

Wouldnt HCG run throughout these short/sharp cycles by essential. The compounds and dosages will almost certainly lead to total testicular inhibition/shutdown. So, as their short, 20-30 days, why not use HCG and make recovery easier and reduce/prevent HPTA shutdown?

----------


## marcus300

> I havent read all of this thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned. 
> 
> Wouldnt HCG run throughout these short/sharp cycles by essential. The compounds and dosages will almost certainly lead to total testicular inhibition/shutdown. So, as their short, 20-30 days, why not use HCG and make recovery easier and reduce/prevent HPTA shutdown?


With recovery and shuting down everybody reacts differently, you use what ever way is best for you to bounce back, majority off BB's say its alot quicker and less tasking to recover than shuting down your system for long periods of time, Use what ever methods are best for yourself, its all about knowing your own body and how it has responded in previous cycles.

Marcus

----------


## Swifto

> With recovery and shuting down everybody reacts differently, you use what ever way is best for you to bounce back, majority off BB's say its alot quicker and less tasking to recover than shuting down your system for long periods of time, Use what ever methods are best for yourself, its all about knowing your own body and how it has responded in previous cycles.
> 
> Marcus


True.

But if your going to be shutdown for a matter of days (20-30), why not make it essential to use HCG as your going to be shutdown for such a small amount of time?

----------


## IBdmfkr

I'd say try it both ways swifto. Some get shutdown more than others. Ex. I've been on for 12wks and coming off without any problems or atrophy.

It's hard to put a "must" on any kind of cycle theory.

----------


## marcus300

> True.
> 
> But if your going to be shutdown for a matter of days (20-30), why not make it essential to use HCG as your going to be shutdown for such a small amount of time?


Yes of course swifto what ever methods works use it, but not everyone does shut down with this way of cycling, alot are fine because they havent been on long enough even with the high dosages.

Marcus

----------


## marcus300

> I'd say try it both ways swifto. Some get shutdown more than others. Ex. I've been on for 12wks and coming off without any problems or atrophy.
> 
> It's hard to put a "must" on any kind of cycle theory.


you got it..... :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Swifto

> Yes of course swifto what ever methods works use it, but not everyone does shut down with this way of cycling, alot are fine because they havent been on long enough even with the high dosages.
> 
> Marcus


Yeah I understand. I havent done any cycles with this type of method as I'm only on my 2nd cycle and still consider myself as a beginner in the AS world. But, its deffinitely something I may consider for future cycles and I may try both ways, with/wighout HCG .

Bump for a good informative post.  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Swifto

> you got it.....


Oi....I've got it too.... :7up:

----------


## solid snake

Hi marcus just one question.

after casing a anabolic state via the priming efect/diet can i just up my food/calaorie intake, train natraly without A.S and still make good gains as a natral/non competitive bodybuilder?

i dont use anabolic steroids exepet 0.66iu of GH and 4.0 grain tyroid extract
and thats from my HRT as you can tell from the very low dose.

----------


## marcus300

> Hi marcus just one question.
> 
> after casing a anabolic state via the priming efect/diet can i just up my food/calaorie intake, train natraly without A.S and still make good gains as a natral/non competitive bodybuilder?
> 
> i dont use anabolic steroids exepet 0.66iu of GH and 4.0 grain tyroid extract
> and thats from my HRT as you can tell from the very low dose.


Yes you can incorporate the priming with anykind of training/bodybuilding, it doesnt have to be with just a short cycle, any kind of cycling would benefit from such practise or training.

Priming is just one tool to building a body, but when you incorporate all the tools the results are and would be far greater.

Marcus

----------


## solid snake

> Yes you can incorporate the priming with anykind of training/bodybuilding, it doesnt have to be with just a short cycle, any kind of cycling would benefit from such practise or training.
> 
> Priming is just one tool to building a body, but when you incorporate all the tools the results are and would be far greater.
> 
> Marcus



Thanks marcus for all your help and a great thread just one more question.

Can you please tell me what you think of the following program ive set up for the next 10 weeks?

6 weeks of PRIMING then 4 weeks HARDCORE TRAINIG+INCREASED CALORIES

Note: during this program i will continue my HRT as normal.

After the 10th week ill take about 3-4 weeks off and reapet.

what do you think?

----------


## goose

Advanced Chemical Warfare
An Interview With Paul Borresen 
By Nelson Montana



The following interview is just that, an interview. We included it because we find it interesting that anyone would use such horrendously large amounts of drugs (okay, so we're sort of like the people who pull over to watch the aftermath of a car accident). In no way do we advocate such dosages, and if you were to ask each of us here at Testosterone individually, we'd probably disagree with a lot of what Paul Borresen says about steroids . Nevertheless, what he has to say makes for damn interesting reading. 


TC and I got together last week and were throwing around some ideas for keeping Testosterone on the cutting edge of bodybuilding information. We spoke of upcoming articles, new training techniques, and discussed research on state-of-the-art supplements, as well as continual studies on existing products. It was easy to examine the strong points that exist within the magazine. But after patting ourselves on the back for a while, it was time to take a cold, hard look at what could be made better.

At one point, TC posed three questions. One, "Who would you be most interested in interviewing?" Two, "If there was one person you would like to see contributing to Testosterone, who would it be?" And three, "Who is the most over-the-edge, balls-to-the-wall individual you know of that you think our readers would like to hear from?" Without hesitation, I replied, "I can answer all three of those questions with the same name?Paul Borresen."

To call renegade pharmacologist Paul Borresen an authority on drug usage is an enormous understatement. When it comes to firsthand experience, Paul may very well be the authority! I can't think of too many people who have pushed the pharmacological envelope as far as Paul. Yet, what makes this remarkable man so different than many of the pro bodybuilders who merely stay on whatever gear they can get for as long as they can get it, Paul is one of the most knowledgeable people around in the science of anabolic steroids.

University trained, Paul received his bachelor's degree in biochemistry. He graduated with first-class honors. He then went on to get his master's degree in pharmacology, specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function. He's had his work published in medical journals throughout the world, written several books, and had over 200 articles appear in magazines on the various aspects of steroid use and their application to bodybuilding. When some of the top professionals need advice on how to arrange their stacks and cycles for a major show, they call Paul. That list of top professionals?according to Paul?even includes a fellow by the name of Dorian Yates.

Some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen has both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?

If you're opposed to the radical usage of performance-enhancement drugs, then move on?get the heck out of here. This article isn't for you. For those of you with a more daring nature who'd like to learn from this particular master, you may proceed?with caution.

Class is now in session.


NM: First, Paul, how are you feeling? I heard that you suffered an accident recently.

PB: Yes, I took a nasty fall and was laid up for four-and-a-half months. It required major surgery. For a long time, I was in a full body brace. While in the hospital, I went down to 170 pounds! I recovered quickly but, of course, I was receiving glutamine, Deca , and growth hormone ! It was no problem getting it into the hospital. Since then, I've entered some area contests and won, but my goal is to come back from having a broken back and win the Nationals.

NM: Any innovative substances that you've been experimenting with?

PB: Whenever there's anything new, I'll try it! You know of the new oils used to inflate a muscle, like Synthol? Well, I've put together a combination of oils in my lab that contains nandrolone , benzyl alcohol, and silica gel. It provides a permanent growth due to the fact that the silica coats the muscle fibers. But it also gives you 300 milligrams of gear per milliliter. It's really amazing, but it can be overdone, as in the case of Ernie Taylor. Have you seen his triceps?

NM: Of course. They're so freaky, they look "fake."

PB: They don't look right. That's an example of an overdone local effect. As far as anything else new, I've been experimenting with prostaglandins since '95. When I won the Northwest Championship, I had six milliliters of Cavajet, which is something that's used to get an erection. But I didn't need it there, so I put it in my arms and shoulders! I've been working with people using Prostaglandins before going to bed at night, and we've seen phenomenal results. They can also be used to provide "local" enlargement. I use it to smooth out my symmetry.

NM: Were there any side effects?

PB: I don't feel that the claims of bad side effects are all that genuine. If you look at the risks and side effects of pharmacology as a whole, prostaglandins fall pretty low down on the list.

NM: What's the typical drug regime of some of the people you coach?

PB: I'm coaching people who use two xxxxxx milligrams of gear each day. They're very big. If you're going to take that level of anabolics, I believe in very short courses?thirty days, at the most, before your body realizes what happened. I'm a firm believer that receptor sites up-regulate. When you do about 5000 milligrams a week, they respond unbelievably. People are going up a pound a day for 18 days straight.

NM: So by using super-physiologic dosages and keeping cycles short, you won't need to increase the dosages with each successive cycle?

PB: You should need less! It's like training. A newcomer does 16 sets and makes gains. The more advanced someone is, the less amount of sets they need to do. I only do about four or five sets. I'm helping Ian Harrison prepare for the Arnold, and he needs even fewer sets per workout.

NM: How long of a wait do you recommend before starting another course?

PB: At least 15 days, which comes to 21 days after your last shot. But if you wait too much longer than three weeks, you're going backwards in your progress. You'll spend time "making up" for what you've lost, even if you use anti-catabolics.

NM: Tell me a little about your company. How did it get started?

PB: A few years back, my wife and I started a company called Chemical Nutrition. Unfortunately, we took on a partner of dubious integrity. It got so bad that he threatened to put me in a body bag! I ended that relationship and started Biohazard. We've been growing very quickly in the UK, and I'm glad to say that my ex-partner's business is declining badly. I don't follow a business "strategy." I focus on culture. I want to make the best products. I won't bullshit anyone or let anyone work for me who isn't honest. I have an MBA degree, and my business philosophy is not to build an empire; rather, we want to build many castles. I want to make money, but I have to look at myself in the mirror every day. I have to respect what I see.

NM: What is the most unique Biohazard product?

PB: We have something called Ravenger 5, which is a special grade of protein powder. It has the exact amino acid make-up, in proprietary order, of human muscle?the only product of its kind. It took a lot of work getting the proper ratios required. We finally came up with a combination of whey, egg albumin, soy isolate, and wheat gluten. The glutamine is not a free form because protein works best in a natural peptide chain. I'm not a big fan of aminos in free form.

NM: You've been outspoken in the past about professional bodybuilders. You made some statements recently concerning Paul Dillett...

PB: I have nothing personal against him. He doesn't train all that hard. He's very lazy. I don't like it when bodybuilders rely on massive amounts of gear and don't train correctly or look after their health. Everyone I work with uses high androgens, and we take certain precautions. I have them all on glycerin. It reduces water and blood pressure. It's an indigestible carb, which causes water to be drawn from the surrounding tissues like the skin. It also increases vascularity.

NM: What is your current stack?

PB: For the first ten days, I take xxxx mg of Sustanon a day. Days 11 to 20, I take xxxx mg of Deca, xxxx mg of Primobolan , and xxxx mg of test propionate a day. Days 21 to 30, I do xxxx mg of propionate, xxxx mg of Winstrol , and four of my Triple X capsules, which are a homemade combination of Dinatropinol, T3, and oral insulin . I also take a xxxx-IU shot of insulin every time I eat a meal.

NM: Gee, is that all?

PB: That's what it takes. I want to make the most massive gains possible. I've gained 94 pounds in the last five months. Oh, I almost forgot?I also use growth hormone four days at a time, which is the way a child produces it, in four-day spurts. It doesn't work as well if you stay on it all the time. Consistent use suppresses your natural GH secretion, plus you build up a tolerance to its effects. I use 12 IUs of GH each day I use it.

NM: No cycling down the dosages of the steroid stack?

PB: No, I just stop. I don't feel that there's much benefit from cycling down. By distancing the shots and the half-life of the drugs, a "cycle down" occurs naturally. I want to clean out as soon as possible. When people stick in low levels of gear in order to "bridge," they're not clearing anything.

NM: Any anti-estrogens?

PB: Aminoglutathiamide is terrific when used the last ten days before a show. It makes you freaky hard. It's a pretty risky drug, however. The ACTH [Adrenal Corticol Tropic Hormone] kickback can create a bigger problem than what you started with. It's a gamble. I use Tamoxifen , 40 mg a day before bed, if I start to get too puffy.

NM: I noticed that you don't use any orals.

PB: For what I use, it wouldn't be healthy. I would hate to take 2,000 mg of 2-mg Anavar tablets!

NM: Definitely not practical. No veterinarian steroids?

PB: No. One thing I've learned from my studies in pharmacology is that mammalian physiology may be similar, but there are species differences. A veterinarian drug is developed through veterinarian research by companies that design it for animals. There aren't any studies of their effectiveness in humans. You need much higher doses than the proper human equivalent. A dog's testosterone would work in a human, just not as effectively. Since I can't control what's compatible and what isn't, I won't use them.

NM: Is there really any way of detecting counterfeits?

PB: It's so easy to fake the ampoules and boxes. Whenever you see an expos? of what is fake and how a "real" steroid should look, the counterfeiters just copy the "real" one. There are a few tricks. For example, Primo shouldn't fall out when you turn the box upside down.

NM: Unless the dealer has pulled the vial out a few times.

PB: That's a good point. In that case, it could be real, but you'd think it was fake. There's just no way of knowing. Some guys over here copied the pink pentagon Thai D-bol and put 5 mg of clenbuterol in them.

NM: Five milligrams?! My God, did anyone die?

PB: There were nine reported deaths. I took one, and went into the hospital.

NM: What's your present association with Dorian Yates?

PB: I take a phone call from Dorian every couple of weeks about technical matters. He'll usually have me come down to his house and ask me about various drugs. I showed him how to use growth hormone and IGF. I helped him with his DNP usage for his last Olympia show. I can honestly say that DNP can produce a condition that's unbelievable, but you've got to get it right! I find it horrendous. My temperature went up to 103 degrees. I was sick, and it felt like I was on fire.

NM: So in the future, will you just stick to using clen ?

PB: No, I'd still use the DNP. I'll just suffer. It can make you lose five pounds of fat in a week. My waist is 31 inches. That's also one benefit of being in the hospital. I had to have two ribs removed, which made my waist slimmer. Cher had a similar surgical procedure done on her to produce a longer torso look. I love it!

NM: What is the best steroid, in your opinion?

PB: If I had to recommend just one, I'd have to say that Deca has the best risk to benefit ratio. But my absolute favorite drug is Primobolan.

NM: I love Primo, too. People think it's weak because it doesn't produce water weight. Deca, on the other hand, bloats me as much as straight testosterone.

PB: You're telling me! Deca is very bloating. Not all tests cause as much water retention. But some people seem to go for that bloat, don't they? They equate it with more size.

NM: What drugs don't you like?

PB: I don't like testosterone cypionate . It's a very raw drug. It also makes you depressed. Anadrol is a shit drug. The fact that it's a 50-mg tablet tells you how weak it is.

NM: I've often made that same point, but it's amazing how many people don't "get" it. The low-dosed drugs, like Winstrol, build the most muscle.

PB: Winstrol is a very potent tissue-building drug in the truest sense! As far as effectiveness in building muscle, 50 mg of Winny tabs will blow 50 mg of Anadrol right out of the water!

NM: Thank you! It's nice to know I'm not alone in that evaluation.

PB: It's so obvious. Anadrol is designed to correct anemia. It builds red blood cells. It does not build muscle. It may help at the end of a course to "fill up" on blood, which may help you to hold on to the gained weight. It's a poor man's EPO [erythropoietin]. If I wanted to make a lot of money, I'd design a drug and call it Super-bol 5,000,000! Everyone will think it's really strong! 

People have so much of this stuff wrong. They think that Primo's weak, when it's actually very strong. They say that Anadrol is powerful, when it's actually very weak. Cypionate is more popular than enanthate , but the enanthate is terrific and cyp is crap. They draw conclusions without really understanding basic pharmacology. People should be using the finer, sophisticated drugs like Primo and Winstrol, not cypionates and the veterinarian products. It's so absurd!

NM: Does it make sense not to stack too many different steroids?

PB: All steroids compete with each other. That's why I say to take Sus for ten days, then Deca for ten days, and so on. Proviron is thought to be an anti-estrogen, but it's really an anti-androgen. Clomid is an underrated anti-estrogen.

NM: How does Clomid differ from Cyclofenil ?

PB: Cyclofenil is a weak estrogen. Even if it competes for estrogen sites, some might get through. Clomid removes the estrogen, so it's much more effective.

NM: Who's the most outrageous steroid abuser you've ever known?

PB: I'd love to say, but I can't.

NM: You don't have to name names.

PB: Okay, the craziest thing that I've ever seen was done by a British pro. He takes a 100-ml bottle and sticks whatever he can get into it, no matter what. Deca, cyp, Equipoise , anything! He'll then take a five-ml shot of that every three hours.

NM: Wow!

PB: He'll also put in ten mg of propionate every day into specific body parts. He doesn't consider that a part of his stack because it's "locating." He does a total of at least 60 shots a day.

NM: That's mind-boggling. How does he look?

PB: Pretty ****ing awesome!

NM: No doubt! Paul, are there any last comments that you'd like to make?

PB: I just want to be able to provide accurate information and sell products that I know are effective. My motto is, "Ignorance kills?let's kill ignorance." I honestly believe that if we give the people the right information, we'll build this sport. There are a lot of assholes with too much power in our sport!

NM: I agree. We're doing what we can on this end. I hope that you'll be able to be a regular contributor to Testosterone. Your expertise is invaluable, and I'm sure that our readers will enjoy what you have to say.

PB: I'd love to write for you guys, and providing honest information to people who care is the right reason for doing so.

NM: Paul, I know that there's still so much we could talk about. Let's do this again sometime.

PB: That'd be great.


Whew! Did anybody out there get hurt? I'm sure that I don't have to offer a disclaimer to the drug dosages that Paul has advocated. This is obviously for the most advanced bodybuilder with extensive experience in chemical assistance. Nevertheless, Paul's comprehension of the subject is unquestionably vast, and I'm sure that he's left more than a few people with their heads spinning.

Class dismissed.

----------


## marcus300

Id delete the dose what is mentioned, just in case goose.

Marcus

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## goose

This is one of the best threads ever,It is an adult site....I can see your point of view marcus..but this is not the paul and british way...education is the way the way forward.I got much love and repect for you,we can`t agree on
everything.You have cleary stated the dangers and the Precautions of this
ideology of Cycling,but I guess your right..


goose...

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## marcus300

> This is one of the best threads ever,It is an adult site....I can see your point of view marcus..but this is not the paul and british way...education is the way the way forward.I got much love and repect for you,we can`t agree on
> everything.You have cleary stated the dangers and the Precautions of this
> ideology of Cycling,but I guess your right..
> 
> 
> goose...


Thanks for the compliment goose, :Wink/Grin:  

I know its an adult site but there are alot of newbies use this site also and i think mentioning such aggressive dosages wouldnt be good for them.

Speak soon goose.

Marcus :Wink/Grin:

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## IBdmfkr

Nice find Goose, Enjoyed the read.

----------


## G-Force

*Proviron is thought to be an anti-estrogen, but it's really an anti-androgen. .*


huh? 

i was waiting for this guy to explain this statement - but he never did
can anyone explain?

i'm using proviron now and would hate to think it is lessening the effect of my androgens

----------


## goose

> *Proviron is thought to be an anti-estrogen, but it's really an anti-androgen. .*
> 
> 
> huh? 
> 
> i was waiting for this guy to explain this statement - but he never did
> can anyone explain?
> 
> i'm using proviron now and would hate to think it is lessening the effect of my androgens



It`s quite an interesting idea,remember this is quite dated and his ideas are very advanced,the idea I get is a pro would not use Proviron as an anti E under his guidance, suggesting Proviron is best used for PCT,which makes perfect sence.


goose...

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## G-Force

it doesnt make perfect sense to me

ok i'm no expert but from what ive read - proviron increases the effectiveness of testosterone - reduces water retention completely eliminates estrogen, increases hardness of muscles and aids in fat loss 

why would u not wand that as part of your cycle?

----------


## vitor

It does not make sense to me either. Proviron binds to SHBG, which will free up more Testosterone to be available for muscle grow.

Proviron an anti-androgen??? Typo mistake for sure. 

Proviron has a structure similar to DHT, which is of a powerful androgen. Proviron is also used in medicine for men who are impotent, because androgens and DHT plays a vital part in sex-drive.

----------


## marcus300

> it doesnt make perfect sense to me
> 
> ok i'm no expert but from what ive read - proviron increases the effectiveness of testosterone - reduces water retention completely eliminates estrogen, increases hardness of muscles and aids in fat loss 
> 
> why would u not wand that as part of your cycle?


Ive seen both studies regarding this issue about proviron, PB always adviced me not to use it within a cycle, but alot of others disagreed with him, so i took it upon myself to do my own research. I found i responded better without it durring a cycle and it was a very valuable tool to have in pct.

Ive tried both ways many times and for ME the benefits are far greater to use proviron in pct than within a cycle, many others would disagree and thats fine i wouldnt argue with them, because if its works for them who is anybody to say it doesnt. This is the trouble with studies regarding anything to do with the body and chemicals, there are many conflicting ones around i think the best thing to do is try both ways and go with the one what works for you. 

Proviron is an amazing compound without doubt,i find it an assett to have it and run it in pct, to many benefits for it not to be used in my opinion, we all get information from somewhere regarding compounds but when there is some disagreement best bet is to try both ways and record the results and do what works best for you.

Marcus

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## goose

An extremely interesting post marcus,I have heard of this concept a few times as `Proviron an anti-androgen` but you would only notice the difference if your a very advanced BB.I do remember an article in ... Anabolic Insider which wrote about this idea...will try and find..This is my take on Proviron it is not Neccary as your anti E,you have other great drugs that do the job better,nothing competes with Proviron as a libido aid in PCT that does not effect your HPTA.


goose..

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## IBdmfkr

Marcus what would proper dosage/duration be for proviron during PCT and would it be good to run it along side aromasin IYO. 
Also with short burst cycles is PCT recommended for the same duration as a 10-12wk cycle?

----------


## marcus300

> Marcus what would proper dosage/duration be for proviron during PCT and would it be good to run it along side aromasin IYO. 
> Also with short burst cycles is PCT recommended for the same duration as a 10-12wk cycle?


I feel this is an indivdual thing again but i use 50-75mg ED, the duration depends on when i feel ive recovered, but normaly its alot faster than the normal cycles of 10-12wks.

Recovery is alot faster with shorter cycles , ive found this even with short light and short heavy its just alot easier and quicker to bounce back and that means holding onto the gains more.If all the correct things are in place with a short cycles (compounds/prime/training/diet) the gains are as good or even better than the long ones and maintance is easier.

Marcus

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## Black R/T

Marcus, you are the ****ing man! i know there is no way i could have gained this much weight this quickly if i hadnt listened to your priming theory. i was about 175lbs when i read your thread for the first time. i figured id try it. i dropped down to 168lbs by the start of my cylce and lost another 3 lbs over the next 3 days. im on day 10 of a prop and npp cycle (log on it in the members cycle results) and ive already made it to 176lbs! thats 11lbs in like 7 or 8 days!

im convinced, thanks bro :7up:

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## ktw

http://anabolicextreme.com/anabolic/...zinterview.htm

Not to dismiss your theory behind short cycling, I plan on trying it (but not in insane doses, more along the moderate lines illustrated in the other post can't remember the users name right now), but I would not trust anything related to Paul or his writing based on all of the accounts of him not actually having any real degree whatsoever.

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## IBdmfkr

Now a degree is required for someone to be listened to that has a wealth of knowledge. Nothing should be praised or dismissed but rather studied and experimented with to see what fits. JMO.

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## ktw

Well the fact is, the guy was a total fraud. He had no real degrees, never worked with Dorian Yates and didn't live up to any of his stats. That ******** interview was pulled because he turned out to be a fake. I mean I bet his theory is probably not horrible, but i wouldn't follow it to a t or anything.

----------


## marcus300

> Well the fact is, the guy was a total fraud. He had no real degrees, never worked with Dorian Yates and didn't live up to any of his stats. That ******** interview was pulled because he turned out to be a fake. I mean I bet his theory is probably not horrible, but i wouldn't follow it to a t or anything.


It seems to me you have no idea how things operate at a top level in bodybuilding otherwise you could see through the smoke,before you start shouting daft comments you should do full research on the subject, but i will try to explain it abit better for you.

Paul did have a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function, his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders, he also transform the world aids victims and how we can substain life longer with steriod applications,top pro's ask PB for advice on stacks and cycles just to name one was DY who was under PB arm durring his Olympia battles.

Paul has also published many Books and videos which explain his methods, the short heavy cycles he use to comment on are only for the advanced BB and not for anyone who hasnt got a good insight into AAS and how their body responds to certain compounds, So your completely right in saying you shouldnt follow his methods regarding short heavy cycling, maybe you should look at just the normal way of short cycling and read the whole thread, you will get a far better picture.

i also know that Dorian said in interviews that he had nothing to do with PB or his theorys, as Dorian was getting to a top level he was pushed to say these things because of his sponsers, he still was in contact with him for years after such allegation, people at the top cant be shown to be in contact with such people who avocate drug use, this is why there were certain people making false statements about Paul, Paul did make mistakes he was very open with his AAS use with the top BB's and they didnt like it being so public.

You can believe whatever you want about Paul but ive studied short cycles weather they are light or heavy and ive have research going back over years, ive tried every kind of cycling and i am a firm believer in short cycles of anykind, if the correct things are in place the muscle growth is amazing,weather you believe Paul to be any good or not that doesnt mean his theory behind short cycling doesnt work, there have been many Top BB who have stated when they have retired that they did this type of cycling.

Marcus

----------


## goose

An interview with paul.....by Alex...

AE: What's going to be the next big revelation is sports pharmacology for bodybuilders? 

PB: Histamine suppression maybe. I don't know if it's a big revelation, but it's an exciting new development. Asking me the "big revelation" is like asking me the cure for cancer (laughing). This is one of the most interesting new things I know of. I also think short duration big doses of gear occasionally is another new development. But whenever you've got a new development, people certainly do try to shoot you down, don't they? But it is going on and it does work at the right times. 

AE: Let's explore histamine suppression for a moment. How does this work? 

PB: Well, I'm a very strong believer that allergies are the primary reason why we don't grow or why we age. Because our bodies become more and more unable to recognize itself, or starts to think itself is an enemy. A lot of diseases like senility are examples of this, as we get older we start to attack our own brain, Graves disease where we attack our own endocrine system, these diseases develop as we get older and develop as our bodies start to slip. That's really why we age. 

I always look at what's stopping this person from growing, not what will make this person grow. The first most important thing for any bodybuilder is to have a cytotoxic test to find out every food he's allergic to and remove it. That's just simple logic. Allergies occur in times of excess. Bodybuilders live for excess, we force-feed, we overeat, we create more of these reactions in our bodies. The mechanism is histamine, the body creates histamine in an allergic response to try to fight any change in the body. People with allergic reactions take anti-histamines, or histamine suppression. Now, I'm saying that histamine is a control, it's something that holds us back as bodybuilders. It's a defense mechanism that can go wrong. So when you push the gear up or when you push the food up, I find that if you do a cytotoxic test on someone when they're dieting and then you do one on them when they're force feeding they'll end up allergic to a whole host of things when they're force feeding. So I would then use histamine suppression. At times of excess, when you're pushing the course, when you're eating hard, when you're trying to grow, you hit a sticking point, by incorporating an anti-histamine you'll find that growth comes easier. 

AE: That's interesting. 

PB: It works. But I'm sure when this interview goes out, I'm sure everyone will tell me how suicidal it is. You have an idea, and it automatically gets attacked. And I'm not always right. However, when I am right, everyone else had the idea first. That's why I like people like Dan Duchaine, I admire the guy because he speaks his mind. And he's not always right, but he's been right enough times that he deserves a lot of credit. He thought of things like DNP , he came up with the idea of using Cytradren, not me. I'd never even heard of it until one day I saw it in one of his articles and I decided to try it out on my people. You know, I coach a lot of people, and if someone says something works, I see if it works. I often try it out on myself first, or I've got a bodybuilder that I'll go to and say to him, "I don't know if this stuff works, do you want to try it with me?" And you'd be surprised how many people are out there just stupid enough to say yes! (laughing) 

AE: Dan also knows when to admit that he's wrong. [Editors note: Remember, when this interview was conducted, Dan Duchaine was still alive] 

PB: He does, and I like that. How can he be right all the time, how can anyone? But people seem to forget when he's right and remember when he's wrong. That's not fair, that's not seeing the whole picture and the contributions he's made. If I ever made a contribution in my life to bodybuilding as much as the Underground Steroid Handbook made, that is the biggest single contribution to our sport because it brought knowledge to everyday people. All of a sudden it wasn't a few elite people in the world that knew what to do, everyone did! 

AE: I know you've worked with a lot of elite level bodybuilders. Generally what kind of dosages have you seen being used at that level? 

PB: I get accused of naming names all the time, but that's basically a case of people naming names on my behalf. I never coached Dorian, he used to phone me up and ask for my advice, but I never coached him. I certainly never coached Ernie [Taylor] either, or Lee Priest for that matter. I met Lee for the first time at my seminar, he did me the honor of turning up. But, I see some individuals, top amateurs and pros, using very high dosages for a long time. And it concerns me, because whether people like it or not, I'm doing a research study with the University of Glamorgan here in the UK. You'd better get the name of that University right! Anyway, I'm working with a Professor Bruce Davis, he's heading up the team with myself, and we are simply taking subjects than have been on steroids for 20 years or more and looking at them, echogram, cardiogram, testing their fitness, blood tests, everything. It takes a full day for the protocol. 

AE: What are you finding? 

PB: The first 14 people we looked at had cardiac damage. Now that frightened the shit out of me. I can quote this because this is accurate and anyone can check this with Glamorgan, 4 of the subject are probably going to need operations within the next 10 years. Now I did not expect the damage to come out in the cardiac area, I expected it to come out in the liver and the kidneys. Now we're going to produce a paper and I was expecting it to prove that after 20 years of steroid use , everyone was alright. And that isn't the case. After 20 years, 50% of the people were perfectly health, 40% had damage that was repairable, and 10% had irreversible cardiac damage. That's the results so far. That's a bit scary, isn't it? 

AE: It is. 

PB: There's no arguing it either. I know lots of bodybuilders, and I'll take the people I talk to or coach and ask them if they'd like to go along. They get a complete check over, blood test for free. One of the members of my staff, Bill Bingham, he's only 22, and he has elevated cardiac enzyme at age 22. He's now come off everything under my advice. In 10 years time, he would have been one of those 10%. We've got a 27-year old who will need a heart bypass operation before he's 30. It frightened the life out of me because it's hardcore evidence. It's the first quality research into this that I know about. 

AE: How many subjects have been tested so far? 

PB: I've only seen the results from 30 subjects, they've actually tested more. The full study will be 200 subjects by the time the paper is written. 

AE: When do you expect that to be out? 

PB: The paper should be out in 16 weeks. I don't want thousands of people emailing the University of Glamorgan asking for this reseach, but as a magazine you could. They'd happily provide it to you. They'll happily tell you about it. I don't think they'll want to go into exacting details with you because as scientists they need to complete the study, but they will at least confirm the study is ongoing and that the indications are not what we expected. We actually intended to prove that anabolic steroid use was perfectly healthy and all this cardiac stuff has come up. [Editors note: After I transcribed this portion of the tape, I contacted the University to inquire about the test Paul is referring too. Nothing has been confirmed as of yet] 

AE: I look forward to seeing that study. Let's talk about training and nutrition for a bit, I don't believe anyone that interviews you ever takes the time to get your views on those subjects. They always focus on drugs with you. 

PB: They always do when I get interviewed, and it quite honestly annoys me. Drugs are not really what matters, they're not everything are they. 

AE: Well, you know why that is, most people would rather read about drugs. 

PB: I don't know about the people reading the magazines, but publishers definitely like the more controversial stuff. 

AE: For training, I know you really advocate pre-exhaustion and rest-pause style systems. What are the advantages of training in this fashion? 

PB: I go back to the science. Were trying to make muscle fibers thicker to make our bodies bigger. Right? That's what we're doing. The body recruits muscle fibers, and this is in the scientific literature for everyone to see, in reverse order. It recruits the small ones first, they're shorter and stronger. So when we train a 6 to 8 rep set, we only train about 30% of our fibers, and these are going to be the shortest and smallest ones. Therefore, even if we doubled their thickness, we're not going to see huge increases in size. We need to get down to the big, thick, weak fibers, which are only worked in the latter stages of a set or workout. So, it's pure science. When I, or you, are doing a set, we're initially only using the small, strong fibers. As you get weaker, you start to bring into play the larger fibers. So, as you put the weight down and pick another weight up, you're getting deeper. The reason why I like drop-setting, is because by the time you get down to the bar, or using no weight at all, that's when the weakest fibers in your body, which happen to be the largest, are getting hit. And therefore, you're gaining the most size. You have to work down through the muscle fibers, I actually take a workout as a way to recruit all the muscle fibers in a given area, not as an objective to lift weight. The weights immaterial, I don't care if I have to lift egg boxes to get big, I simply want to get big. 

AE: One of the biggest problems I face is convincing people that the weights they use are not as important as the fashion in which they are lifting and the intensity while doing so. 

PB: As you know, I have a back injury, I can no longer do a 400-500 lb bench press. So, I'll do 50-60 reps on flyes, perhaps a triple-drop set of flyes, and then do a 200-300 lb bench press. By then, I'm tired and pre-exhausted. And yes, the guy next to me in the gym is probably looking at me saying, "I can do that", but he couldn't do it after doing what I did. Even Simon, [Cohen] and this man is big and massive, called me up to day to tell me that his chest has been sore for the last 5 days. It told me, "Paul, it's awesome!!!" And this is Mr. Universe getting really excited. He's telling me that he's got a whole new way to train and that he loves it. Now we're planning on putting another 20 lbs on Simon just by improving his training. Here I am at 260-ish, my training partner is 240-ish, and by the end of the workout, we're picking Simon up off the floor. We only did 4 sets, and by the last set, Simon's ready to die. But he loved it, he loved it. He's my star of tomorrow. 

AE: You take a Simon Cohen. How do you advocate someone the size of a Simon Cohen eat during the offseason? 

PB: Macronutrients. I'm concerned with Simon getting 400 g of quality protein down. I'm concerned that Simon doesn't get too fat, within the confines of that, it really doesn't matter what he does. If Simon wants a pizza, I say Simon, have a pizza. I'm more concerned that if his diet is too clean, he cannot eat enough. Also, what the hell are we going to do to clean it up? What are we going to take out if he's living on turkey breasts? My answer is, when you're trying to eat more than you need, which you have to do to get bigger, you've got to use whatever food you can eat. There's only fat, protein, and carbs, there's only fuel. So, as long as their enough protein, and we supplement his diet with 200 g of protein a day, and he eat plenty of steak, turkey, chicken, lean red meat, things like this. He's consuming some source of protein every 2.5 hours, and in between meals, he's having small protein shakes, 10-15 grams of protein. We're trying to keep a constant blood supply of all the amino acids needed for muscle growth. I start my seminars with, "Close your eyes, and imagine a sphere floating in space. It's spinning like the earth, and outside that sphere is the ocean. Running through that ocean are tubes of liquid. Well, that sphere is the muscle cell, and the ocean is the lymph that surrounds it and the tubes are the blood. To build muscle, you've got to get all the amino acids into the muscle cell. To do that, you've got to get them into the lymph, to do that you've got to get them into the blood. And to do that, you've got to get them into the stomach, and to do that you've got to them into the stomach you've got to eat. There are 22 amino acids that you should be eating every 3 hours." 

That's how I start my seminars, with those words. That's what I believe. Nutrition is first about getting those amino acids in, then it's about providing enough energy. That means eating, and eat what the hell you bloody like 

AE: Do you often find that people stop making progress because they're not consuming enough calories? 

PB: Definitely. It's definitely more that than simply not enough protein. It's not enough calories, therefore, the nutrition that's required to build muscle is going to be diverted to providing basic energy needs which is always going to be a priority over muscle growth. 

AE: The reason why I ask is simply because that's what I see every day. When I evaluate people's diets their simply not consuming enough calories. 

PB: Right, they're living on turkey breasts. 

AE: The whole thing has been created by the supplement companies which would have you believe that these athletes live on rice and chicken and eat clean year round. In addition to that, they consume copious amounts of supplements. In reality, this simply isn't happening. 

PB: You know I own a supplement company. The word supplement is the key here. You should eat lots of food, a diet rich in protein, fats, and carbs and then add supplements on top. People who replace their meals with MRP's and things, they're never going to grow. Eat the MRP as well as the meal. That's what an MRP is for, to drink with your steak and eggs. I'm going to be hit for saying this, but all my people have steak and eggs before bed every night. The reason for that is this. In the wild, when a lion eats a zebra, it doesn't only absorb 30 grams of that food, I mean, it only eats once a week. You can extrapolate this to man, we didn't eat every three hours. When we eat, we don't only absorb 30 grams, if we did, we be the size of mice. The fact is that the amount of nutrients we absorb from our food is largely dependent on the kind of food we eat. If you eat red meat and eggs, it's very slowly absorbed. You can eat 150 grams of protein in this fashion and it's going to take all night to be absorbed. That way you're covering yourself throughout the night and you always sleep deep on proteins and fats. It's natural to eat and sleep. So, all my clients will have a big steak and eggs before going to bed, that way I know their muscle cells are getting a constant infusion of amino acids throughout the night. I used to advocate that my clients wake up and eat in the middle of the night. Now I prefer to have them simply eat a high protein moderate fat meal before going to bed. 



goose...

----------


## primetime1

nice read goose.. im goin to try and incorporate some of pb's ideas to my current routine. thanks for that info.

----------


## ktw

Where are his degrees from? Because according to most people that have had interviews with him or worked with him, he never provided proper credentials or lived up to the physical stats he spoke of.

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## ktw

> It seems to me you have no idea how things operate at a top level in bodybuilding otherwise you could see through the smoke,before you start shouting daft comments you should do full research on the subject, but i will try to explain it abit better for you.
> 
> Paul did have a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function, his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders, he also transform the world aids victims and how we can substain life longer with steriod applications,top pro's ask PB for advice on stacks and cycles just to name one was DY who was under PB arm durring his Olympia battles.
> 
> Paul has also published many Books and videos which explain his methods, the short heavy cycles he use to comment on are only for the advanced BB and not for anyone who hasnt got a good insight into AAS and how their body responds to certain compounds, So your completely right in saying you shouldnt follow his methods regarding short heavy cycling, maybe you should look at just the normal way of short cycling and read the whole thread, you will get a far better picture.
> 
> i also know that Dorian said in interviews that he had nothing to do with PB or his theorys, as Dorian was getting to a top level he was pushed to say these things because of his sponsers, he still was in contact with him for years after such allegation, people at the top cant be shown to be in contact with such people who avocate drug use, this is why there were certain people making false statements about Paul, Paul did make mistakes he was very open with his AAS use with the top BB's and they didnt like it being so public.
> 
> You can believe whatever you want about Paul but ive studied short cycles weather they are light or heavy and ive have research going back over years, ive tried every kind of cycling and i am a firm believer in short cycles of anykind, if the correct things are in place the muscle growth is amazing,weather you believe Paul to be any good or not that doesnt mean his theory behind short cycling doesnt work, there have been many Top BB who have stated when they have retired that they did this type of cycling.
> ...


Yah, that's what I said before. Maybe he is a hoax, maybe he's not, but his method might be valid and good so it could not really matter either way. Also, doesn't L. Rea have a lot of similar ideas regarding short cycles?

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## goose

> Where are his degrees from? Because according to most people that have had interviews with him or worked with him, he never provided proper credentials or lived up to the physical stats he spoke of.



It is very clear you are Clueless and uneducated about AAS.Have you ever seen pics of Paul? If you talk the talk....you must walk the walk....or you ass will get knocked out. :Icon Pissedoff:  



goose..

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## marcus300

> Yah, that's what I said before. Maybe he is a hoax, maybe he's not, but his method might be valid and good so it could not really matter either way. Also, doesn't L. Rea have a lot of similar ideas regarding short cycles?


Yes L Rea does comment on short cycles, they are more for the average user tho. Like ive stated you can believe what ever you want regarding PB, i know personaly what he has done and achieved.

Marcus

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## alwayson

> there have been many Top BB who have stated when they have retired that they did this type of cycling.
> 
> Marcus



Marcus, if you could name ONE of paul's books, which one would it be?

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## BlInDsIdE

i plan on trying this sort of cycling out during the summer, it seems to make sense and i'm interested to see the results i'd get

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## marcus300

> Marcus, if you could name ONE of paul's books, which one would it be?


Anabolic Edge,
The Stack,
The Big Secret,
The governor (mag)
Testosterone magazine,

And many videos.

Marcus

----------


## G-Force

> An extremely interesting post marcus,I have heard of this concept a few times as `Proviron an anti-androgen` but you would only notice the difference if your a very advanced BB.I do remember an article in ... Anabolic Insider which wrote about this idea...will try and find..This is my take on Proviron it is not Neccary as your anti E,you have other great drugs that do the job better,nothing competes with Proviron as a libido aid in PCT that does not effect your HPTA.
> 
> 
> goose..



have u found that study yet goose? i know a few people (including myself ) that would like to read it

congrats on becoming a vet by the way

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## mmaximus25

I would like to read the study also... I'm a big fan of proviron and Nolvadex through out my cycles, dosing with HCG in the middle and end of my cycles... I know there is speculation and some evidence that you need a good amount of estrogens also... to keep a harmony with in the anabolic atmosphere we are creating... I can see an even higher level possibly needed with in these true mega doses...

I dont agree with Paul but can respect the theory... those that have tried it can only be our test subjects as far response good and bad...

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## mmaximus25

> Anabolic Edge,
> The Stack,
> The Big Secret,
> The governor (mag)
> Testosterone magazine,
> 
> And many videos.
> 
> Marcus



M300, I might of missed this in the beginning of the thread but I was talking to a buddy... He said Paul OD'ed... is that true... And of what... I'm no saint I've played with such things as Nubain before... (I'm being lazy by not looking it up...)

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## marcus300

> M300, I might of missed this in the beginning of the thread but I was talking to a buddy... He said Paul OD'ed... is that true... And of what... I'm no saint I've played with such things as Nubain before... (I'm being lazy by not looking it up...)


Paul has been involved in Bodybuilding all his life he worked out nearly every day but he had a bad accident and broke his back, this mentaly didnt do PB any good, he recovered but still found it hard to train how he use to, he was on pain killers to numb the pain so he could train and feel normal again, someone told me once that he said "its not worth living if he couldnt train" in the end he took to many pain killers, it was a very sad loss of someone who was highley rated in the Bodybuilding circles, not everybody agreed with his out spoken ways about Drug use within Bodybuilding, but either way it was a big loss of someone who was years ahead of his time.

Here are some of his achievenets-
Masters degree in pharmacology || Batchelors degree in biochemistry || Over 200 published articles || Author of the Anabolic Edge & The Big Secret || Author of the soon to be released An end to all secrets || Founder of Chemical Warefare (No longer associated) || Founder of BIOHAZARD Creator of THE GOVERNOR || British Northeast Heavyweight Champion || Coached Hundreds of champions including the great but now bitter Dorian Yates. Currently coaching 5 Pro`s including Ian Harrison, along with 150 local and top level amateurs. Self proclamed owner of "the bigest calves on the planet!!"

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## BigMaus

I hope i fully understand the priming and the short burst cycles.
But i think there is a lot of info not given because there would be al bunch of young ppl who would try this method.
But how can we ever fully understand, if were not told what the dose is during such a cycle.

Never before have i read a theory that makes more sence than this one, so i liked to be told how to do this proparly.

excuse my bad Englisch

----------


## BigMaus

bump

----------


## IBdmfkr

> I hope i fully understand the priming and the short burst cycles.
> But i think there is a lot of info not given because there would be al bunch of young ppl who would try this method.
> But how can we ever fully understand, if were not told what the dose is during such a cycle.
> 
> Never before have i read a theory that makes more sence than this one, so i liked to be told how to do this proparly.
> 
> excuse my bad Englisch


Why not go buy one of the many books listed in this thread, I doubt marcus just pulled this out of his ass, I'm sure it explains in full detail in the books.

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## BigMaus

Yes, there were a couple of books discussed, but which one do you prefer?
I need the one that particully explains this subject.

----------


## Lavinco

what exactly is "GH"

----------


## mmaximus25

> Yes, there were a couple of books discussed, but which one do you prefer?
> I need the one that particully explains this subject.



I'll PM Marcus for you bro...

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## BigMaus

I appriciate it bro

----------


## IBdmfkr

> what exactly is "GH"


Human Growth Hormone .

----------


## marcus300

> I hope i fully understand the priming and the short burst cycles.
> But i think there is a lot of info not given because there would be al bunch of young ppl who would try this method.
> But how can we ever fully understand, if were not told what the dose is during such a cycle.
> 
> Never before have i read a theory that makes more sence than this one, so i liked to be told how to do this proparly.
> 
> excuse my bad Englisch


This method is only for the advance BB and not for newbies or people who are not ready for such high dosages, if i did mention the dosages am sure alot would try it and thats something what i dont want, they will think there is some short cut to building a big body and this method will be the answer to all their dreams, so am afraid i will not post dosages, i will speak to people via PM and if they are educated enough on making disission about using a cycle like this then i will advice best i can, but they have to have plenty of cycle history and are advanced enough.

All i can say is the dose is alot more than you will be using at this moment in time or ever used, but short cycles can be used by newbies but not heavy ones, they need to know how their bodys respond to AAS over a few weeks to detirmine what kind of short cycles should be run and what dose.

There are many books what hit on this method, PB's books are very good but very extreme and i have to say alot as move on since PB use to talk about this method.

Why dont you consider a normal short cycle with a prime beforehand and design it and post it in a new thread with your stats, we can advice then to what dose you should be running for someone at your level?

----------


## Lavinco

> Human Growth Hormone.


thanks!

Thats what I thought but wasn't sure

----------


## valcon

thanks for the read marcus

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## marcus300

> I hope i fully understand the priming and the short burst cycles.



check this thread out for priming info, hopefully it will help-

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ighlight=prime

----------


## CARNIVORE

Does anyone have info where I could buy Paul Borreson books? I've done the google thing with no luck.

Thanks,
CARNIVORE*


*

----------


## marcus300

> Does anyone have info where I could buy Paul Borreson books? I've done the google thing with no luck.
> 
> Thanks,
> CARNIVORE*
> 
> 
> *


Try emailing BioHazzard his ex-company.

----------


## CARNIVORE

> Try emailing BioHazzard his ex-company.


Thanks for the idea Marcus, will do.


CARNIVORE

----------


## CARNIVORE

For those who may want to contact BioHazzard here is som info,
Phil Boykin ( [email protected]) (Tel. 803 484 1866). Phil is the USA Rep for Bio Hazzard

----------


## Warrior

> Anabolic Edge,
> The Stack,
> The Big Secret,
> The governor (mag)
> Testosterone magazine,
> 
> And many videos.
> 
> Marcus


He wrote for Testosterone?

----------


## MotorBoatin' SOB

great read, im going to have to try it

----------


## marcus300

> He wrote for Testosterone?


Yes he wrote many articles, here is alittle article which was posted on Bihazzard ...

To go back to a thread which was covered a while ago on how much protein
can be digested in one sitting. This quote is taken from
www.biohazardusa.com as part of a pulled article from *Paul Borreson for
Testosterone magazine.* 
After all, whoever said that we could only absorb 30 grams of protein at a
time. Take a Lion. When it kills a Zebra, it does not have half a bite and
then come back 3 hours later to have moreÖÖHe gorges until he cannot move!
In doing this, you have to ask the obvious: Is the Lion wasting all but 30
grams of this gorge fest? Of course not! If this were the case, Lions would
be the size of mice.

I have seen him make a similar quote on video but making reference to a
study which was carried out on terminally ill, bed ridden people fed on
poor quality protein rather than healthy people who are training. This
seems to be what gave to 30g limit.

----------


## Pinnacle

I'll step in and make one open post about my 21 day cycle I did a few months back.After the smoke totally cleared I kept slightly over 5 pounds of actual muscle.
The down side to this cycle was my BW was the worst it ever was,and took me 6 weeks to get things back to normal.By that I mean my lipid profiles.On normal,high dose Test cycles with an oral in it ,my BW never came back this bad and I always bounced back with in 2 weeks after cycle was completed.This is something everyone needs top consider when running a cycle like this.The more I think about it,the more I'm convinced I'll never run such at type cycle again.I'll prefer to run an 8 week cycles at far lower doses(and risks) and most likely get the same gains. 

~Pinnacle~

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## stupidhippo

true (the somment above Pinns by marcus about protein).. and its obvious that u absorb mostly all what u eat (protein) but the question is that what happens then.. Now this is not written is stone and maybe some one with better knowledge can help out.. but if a large amount of protein is absorbed then the flow of aminoacids to the liver gets so big that it is utilized there to gluconeogenesis... similar mechanisms are active in glucose mietabolism also.. when u take the key enzymes and their different isoforms... hence the liver doestn utilize glucose (and the brain does) when the bloodsugar is low. The affinity is high to glucose with the isoform in the brain while the liver needs higher concentrations to work but when it does get activated it can catalyze large amounts.. I written this the way I remeber it so some inaccuracies might be included..

----------


## stupidhippo

> I'll step in and make one open post about my 21 day cycle I did a few months back.After the smoke totally cleared I kept slightly over 5 pounds of actual muscle.
> The down side to this cycle was my BW was the worst it ever was,and took me 6 weeks to get things back to normal.By that I mean my lipid profiles.On normal,high dose Test cycles with an oral in it ,my BW never came back this bad and I always bounced back with in 2 weeks after cycle was completed.This is something everyone needs top consider when running a cycle like this.The more I think about it,the more I'm convinced I'll never run such at type cycle again.I'll prefer to run an 8 week cycles at far lower doses(and risks) and most likely get the same gains. 
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


thx for the input...

----------


## marcus300

> I'll step in and make one open post about my 21 day cycle I did a few months back.After the smoke totally cleared I kept slightly over 5 pounds of actual muscle.
> The down side to this cycle was my BW was the worst it ever was,and took me 6 weeks to get things back to normal.By that I mean my lipid profiles.On normal,high dose Test cycles with an oral in it ,my BW never came back this bad and I always bounced back with in 2 weeks after cycle was completed.This is something everyone needs top consider when running a cycle like this.The more I think about it,the more I'm convinced I'll never run such at type cycle again.I'll prefer to run an 8 week cycles at far lower doses(and risks) and most likely get the same gains. 
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


I must say pinn, the dose which you had was a very large amount even by top standards and the compounds were some of the strongest you can use.

Your correct in saying everybody should have their BW done to see how things are going, ive got plenty of records which imply bw returned to normal faster than long cycles, everybody is different and if i remember rightly you did start the short heavy cycle when you were cruising on 300mg of test a week, which isnt a best base to work of with this type of cycling.

This system works best when you have been gear free and your body has had a good priming.

----------


## Pinnacle

> if i remember rightly you did start the short heavy cycle when you were cruising on 300mg of test a week, which isnt a best base to work of with this type of cycling.
> 
> .


You are correct and all 3 my doctors based my BW off my 250 mgs HRT does I run year round.My lipid profile results post cycle have nothing at all to do with my HRT dose.We did have a base line to work from..and the BW was staggering to say the least ..and quite dangerous too.I'd be willing to bet(and my docs would totally agree) that everyone who runs/ran these type cycles had very poor leading to terrible lipid profiles once cycle ended.....be careful ppl.Youve been warned ..PB had no medical evidence at all to say this type cycling is safe by any means.And to be rather honest...it isn't safe.


~Pinnacle~

----------


## marcus300

> You are correct and all 3 my doctors based my BW off my 250 mgs HRT does I run year round.My lipid profile results post cycle have nothing at all to do with my HRT dose.We did have a base line to work from..and the BW was staggering to say the least ..and quite dangerous too.I'd be willing to bet(and my docs would totally agree) that everyone who runs/ran these type cycles had very poor leading to terrible lipid profiles once cycle ended.....be careful ppl.Youve been warned ..PB had no medical evidence at all to say this type cycling is safe by any means.And to be rather honest...it isn't safe.
> 
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


correct everybody should have their BW done to see what level it is at, medical evidence? no just many records going back years from all type of BB's, like i said the dose you did was a very high level even for top bb's,if it doesnt agree with you it shouldnt be consider again.

Many pros rate this type of cycling but its only for the advance who know there own bodys and have their bw done.

Not everybody has to do such high dosages, short cycles can be moderate or light with great effect, this is only for the advance who has come to his limit and finds it hard to gain muscle tissue but this system can be used at any level just the dose has to be worked out differently.

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## vitor

Ive yust finnished my first short cycle(30 days). The priming I did before starting wasnt ideal, since it was only 2-weeks. And the dosages I was using wasnt to high.(Defently higher than Ive done before, though.)

Still, I gained 6 ibs of muscle on it, which I was very pleased with. Its going to be intresting to see how fast my natty test gets back to normal, or even above normal, in the next few weeks. (I think the main benefit of short cycling will be rapid recovery).

The short-cycle theory defently works. I wonder what the gains would have been like, had I primed longer, and used stronger dosages...

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## stupidhippo

i think its pretty well established that they work (at least somewhat, eventhough I suspect them to be VERY effective).. to me the question is long term safety.. that Im not convinced yet...

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## marcus300

> Ive yust finnished my first short cycle(30 days). The priming I did before starting wasnt ideal, since it was only 2-weeks. And the dosages I was using wasnt to high.(Defently higher than Ive done before, though.)
> 
> Still, I gained 6 ibs of muscle on it, which I was very pleased with. Its going to be intresting to see how fast my natty test gets back to normal, or even above normal, in the next few weeks. (I think the main benefit of short cycling will be rapid recovery).
> 
> The short-cycle theory defently works. I wonder what the gains would have been like, had I primed longer, and used stronger dosages...


Vitor, please keep me inform how well you recover from your cycle.

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## stupidhippo

yeah everyone who tries this method pls chyme in.. especially if u get ur BW done regularily..

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## marcus300

> i think its pretty well established that they work (at least somewhat, eventhough I suspect them to be VERY effective).. to me the question is long term safety.. that Im not convinced yet...


Best thing would be to try one and see what happens, but make sure you prime correctly before the cycle its a must for rapid muscle tissue gains, they do work without doubt but everybody is different try one and see for yourself, but i wouldnt recommend a heavy short cycle unless your at an advance level

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## stupidhippo

im pretty novice when it comes to cycling... but I seem to need pretty high doses to respond (or maybe its the quality of the gear , the biggest UGL hasnt pleased me at all)... I am 270 lbs though (if that has any effect).. Im planning on trying one when I have enough money to buy all what I need for it (including BW's etc and pharmaceutical grade gear).. probably gonna still do one test + tren (or deca ) cycle in between with 1,5 G's to 2 g's of AAS a week .. this time with pharmaceutical grade.. I dont know.. how advanced do u have to be to do this?

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## don anabolico

all i can say is SKREW these short cycles and all the theories that go with it.
i did 3 of them... the last one i did i lost EVERYTHING and MORE, cause i was so supressed already. 1 week after being off i was at 106ng!!!! liver was elavated...... just started my 9 weeker today, try and get back what all i lost due to this junk.

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## dragon69

interesting ideas here. Like it so far.

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## marcus300

> all i can say is SKREW these short cycles and all the theories that go with it.
> i did 3 of them... the last one i did i lost EVERYTHING and MORE, cause i was so supressed already. 1 week after being off i was at 106ng!!!! liver was elavated...... just started my 9 weeker today, try and get back what all i lost due to this junk.


Don anabolico,
Ive found your comments very interesting and cant really believe the reported results from you short cycle, i can understand pinn's high BW because of huge amounts pinn took (never does anything half hearted tho) but pinn did make some gains of 5lb which is alot to man like pinn at his stage, his complaint was BW which am sure is due to the huge amount he took of very harsh compounds.

Back to your short cycles, i cant really comment on yours because i know nothing about them, so i did a search on some of your threads, to be totally honest with you, your short cycles are rubbish you have no idea at all what you are doing i would of done some research on the subject first before contemplating any kind of short cycle weather it is heavy/light or standard dosages.

Here is a quote from one of your threads * "i have been doing these 2.5 week short cycles of tren and var, and my recent 2 i have lost everything! My off time is 4 weeks between".*  2.5 weeks of tren and var??? are you for real? then 4 weeks off? you have done 2 of these cycles? do you like punishing yourself? i am lost for words but your quote says it all.

Here is another link to one of your other threads for a future cycle your 9 weeker? http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=237368

Did you have good time off before you started a short cycle?

Did you prime the body before starting the cycle?

Who advised you on using var and tren for 2.5 weeks?

Why only 4 weeks offs in between?

I agree totally with you that your type of short cycling is rubbish and i wouldn't advice anyone doing anything like what you did, short cycles do work maybe not for everybody but they do work great if the correct procedures are done before and the correct compounds are planned in the cycle.

There are many ways of short cycling, this thread was about a certain way which is used by top level pros but the whole idea can be implemented at any stage so long as its designed and planned correctly.

Its all about research and experience to get knowledge in the field you are trying to conquer, my advice to you is stick with standard type of cycling, all the best for your future cycles

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## vitor

> Don anabolico,
> Ive found your comments very interesting and cant really believe the reported results from you short cycle, i can understand pinn's high BW because of huge amounts pinn took (never does anything half hearted tho) but pinn did make some gains of 5lb which is alot to man like pinn at his stage, his complaint was BW which am sure is due to the huge amount he took of very harsh compounds.
> 
> Back to your short cycles, i cant really comment on yours because i know nothing about them, so i did a search on some of your threads, to be totally honest with you, your short cycles are rubbish you have no idea at all what you are doing i would of done some research on the subject first before contemplating any kind of short cycle weather it is heavy/light or standard dosages.
> 
> Here is a quote from one of your threads * "i have been doing these 2.5 week short cycles of tren and var, and my recent 2 i have lost everything! My off time is 4 weeks between".*  2.5 weeks of tren and var??? are you for real? then 4 weeks off? you have done 2 of these cycles? do you like punishing yourself? i am lost for words but your quote says it all.
> 
> Here is another link to one of your other threads for a future cycle your 9 weeker? http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=237368
> 
> ...


I agree that 2.5 weeks on/4off, is a bad idea. I think people should stick with the theorys that has proven to work, which is 2 weeks on/4off or 30 days on.

the diffrence between "Recovery" from 2weeks on to 2.5 weeks on is dramatic actually.

From what I have read and understand; when you have been on for only 2-weeks, only the hypotalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex-hormones it senses.
But the "Pituitary is not inhibited after 14 days(its actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH, even moreso than usal.) Recovery will therefor be rapid after only 14 days on.
However, if one goes 1-2 days past 14 days, the Pituitary becomes inhibited as well(this is a deeper supression).
Recovery will be no better after 2.5 weeks on, than 4 weeks on. So the whole benefit wilth the 2on/4off will be lost.

No wonder Don anabolica got poor results. Since he was killing hes own Test-production(with 2.5 weeks on, which is a short time to make decent gains)and at the same time, having the same recovery as someone would on a 30days cycle. It makes no sense to cycle like that!!

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## AleX-69

> the diffrence between "Recovery" from 2weeks on to 2.5 weeks on is dramatic actually.
> 
> From what I have read and understand; when you have been on for only 2-weeks, only the hypotalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex-hormones it senses. But the "Pituitary is not inhibited after 14 days(its actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH, even moreso than usal.) Recovery will therefor be rapid after only 14 days on.
> However, if one goes 1-2 days past 14 days, the Pituitary becomes inhibited as well(this is a deeper supression). Recovery will be no better after 2.5 weeks on, than 4 weeks on. So the whole benefit wilth the 2on/4off will be lost.


you pretty much nailed it there i think. I may add that after 4 weeks testicular shrinkage starts [as a guideline] and therefore recovery will be even worse.. So if you are running a cycle longer than 4 weeks you may aswell do a more traditional cycle concerning your bodys own test production ..




> Here is a quote from one of your threads "i have been doing these 2.5 week short cycles of tren and var, and my recent 2 i have lost everything! My off time is 4 weeks between". 2.5 weeks of tren and var??? are you for real? then 4 weeks off? you have done 2 of these cycles? *do you like punishing yourself?* i am lost for words but your quote says it all.


/signed

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## guest589745

Bump , here it is.

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## std4

> If one is off gear and has dropped to ones natural max then a short cycle can add up to 10 pounds. If you take no more than 6 weeks off after each four weeker you will not loose much...then in each successive cycle you can still gain but the gains will be smaller the further you get from your natural max.



can someone elaborate on this pls. I think it is the other way round. The more you have trained naturally, the more is your body used to training, the muscle will be able to "absorb" better the aas, and thus you will gain a lot when you begin to juice.

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## stupidhippo

i disagree with u completely std4! My support for that is just a pretty small group of ppl (about 20) with dofferent training background.. We all started to use AAS roughly the same time.. Im very aware of their diet and training routine.. and a fact that I have made is that ppl who are at pretty beginner stage manage to keep their gains alot more than we who waited for until we reached our "natural max" (if there is such a thing). Also only the beginners have made like 70 lbs increases in their bench in one cycle etc... Weight gain the difference aint there anymore.. But the most obvious observation for me is the keeping of gains.. ppl who arent that advanced can manage to keep more of their gains with poor PCT, not good diet, and a pretty terrible training routine when compared to someone who does everything right but has pretty muc reached his natural top...

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## Random

I COMPLETELY disagree with std4 also. I pushed the envelope so far naturally that when i first used AAS, 7 years after i begain training, it helped but it wasnt magic at all in anyway, in fact this may sound bad but many of my best lifts still stand untouchable for me even with using AAS now....along with that i think i rivaled my latest contest condition naturally....

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## stupidhippo

> I COMPLETELY disagree with std4 also. I pushed the envelope so far naturally that when i first used AAS, 7 years after i begain training, it helped but it wasnt magic at all in anyway, in fact this may sound bad but many of my best lifts still stand untouchable for me even with using AAS now....along with that i think i rivaled my latest contest condition naturally....


yeah, it kinda sux cause I thought that a little like std4 before I started juicing.. but I also knew it was a possibility that it would go like this.. I made a decision that after 6 months has passed from this cycle if my lifts drop to where I was natty im not gonna juice no more.. no point, unless I will plan to juice for a long time..

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## Random

Yea i think for me AAS has helped make dieting and competing more effective whereas i can still gain plenty of mass offseason because my diet is so planned out that i never miss meals or sleep etc...

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## std4

i have a friend with 19' natural guns. So you say he won't have much more potential even if he begins to juice?

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## briansauras

> i have a friend with 19' natural guns. So you say he won't have much more potential even if he begins to juice?


19's are pretty big. I highly doubt that cycles will push him much over 20. I mean come on now, you body can only get so big. 

Also he prolly has 19' arms and a 48' waist...lol

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## std4

> 19's are pretty big. I highly doubt that cycles will push him much over 20. I mean come on now, you body can only get so big. 
> 
> Also he prolly has 19' arms and a 48' waist...lol



he is not lean but for natty his size i would say his bf is really good(i would estimate it about 15%).


i am thinking about this issue over and over again i am really confused. it this is the way it goes it is very unfair for guys like the one i mentioned.

so how does the pros get that big? they had 21' natural arms or...?

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## marcus300

> he is not lean but for natty his size i would say his bf is really good(i would estimate it about 15%).
> 
> 
> i am thinking about this issue over and over again i am really confused. it this is the way it goes it is very unfair for guys like the one i mentioned.
> 
> so how does the pros get that big? they had 21' natural arms or...?


Everybody is different to what size they can grow to, genetics play a huge part in this role more than AAS.
Eat ,train hard and find the right stacks/cycles to suit your body and be the best you can with what you have, training natural for some years before using AAS is a must to solid keepable gains in muscle tissue

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## Xtralarg

> Everybody is different to what size they can grow to, genetics play a huge part in this role more than AAS.
> Eat ,train hard and find the right stacks/cycles to suit your body and be the best you can with what you have, training natural for some years before using AAS is a must to solid keepable gains in muscle tissue


 Amen

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## stupidhippo

> he is not lean but for natty his size i would say his bf is really good(i would estimate it about 15%).
> 
> 
> i am thinking about this issue over and over again i am really confused. it this is the way it goes it is very unfair for guys like the one i mentioned.
> 
> so how does the pros get that big? they had 21' natural arms or...?



u can get big yeah by AAS... the gains wont be as rapid as with mroe beginners. but if u cycle continously u can get bigger.. pros stay on some dose all the time.. its a whole new ball game if u plan on becoming pro... other ppl know more about that..

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## Maldorf

I am almost 3 weeks into my first short heavy cycle, going to run it 2 more weeks. Before this I was cutting bodyfat and had been for many months. I was down to about 7% bodyfat and primed well on a low carb diet. In the first 2 weeks I put on 16 pounds and strength is climbing. Went from 228 pounds up to 244 pounds. So far so good. It is almost like I have the gains now that would have taken me a month or more to make on the longer cycles I used to run. I am no novice either, been lifting seriously for over 20 years and cycling AAS for about 8 or 9 years. I am really looking forward to the gains I will make in the next 2 weeks, hopefully it will take me to a level I havent been yet. So far this method looks sound, and produces results. Have to see how I do in pct, and hope I dont lose too much going into my next cycle.

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## marcus300

> I am almost 3 weeks into my first short heavy cycle, going to run it 2 more weeks. Before this I was cutting bodyfat and had been for many months. I was down to about 7% bodyfat and primed well on a low carb diet. In the first 2 weeks I put on 16 pounds and strength is climbing. Went from 228 pounds up to 244 pounds. So far so good. It is almost like I have the gains now that would have taken me a month or more to make on the longer cycles I used to run. I am no novice either, been lifting seriously for over 20 years and cycling AAS for about 8 or 9 years. I am really looking forward to the gains I will make in the next 2 weeks, hopefully it will take me to a level I havent been yet. So far this method looks sound, and produces results. Have to see how I do in pct, and hope I dont lose too much going into my next cycle.


Excellent news well done on your progress, for the next 2 weeks of your cycle you will need to increase clean calories even more and do some shock training, you have opened a growth window so use it and force new muscle tissue, 
pls keep me inform

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## Maldorf

> Excellent news well done on your progress, for the next 2 weeks of your cycle you will need to increase clean calories even more and do some shock training, you have opened a growth window so use it and force new muscle tissue, 
> pls keep me inform


Yes, I am working hard on stuffing my face with more high quality foods. It is really hard getting all of that down, sometimes feels like I am a turkey stuffed for Thanksgiving. Much of the day my belly feels all bloated with all of that food, eating every 2 hours or so. As far as training, Im using drop sets and some rest pause training. I am also doing some "feeder sets" for lagging bodyparts -biceps and quads. Doing 3 of these feeder sets the day after training that bodypart, reps of 16-20. I have picked up over 1/2 an inch on my arms.
Ive been using dbol as an oral and going to switch over to halo for the last 2 weeks. Will be my first time using Halo, hoping for some good strength gains.

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## marcus300

> Yes, I am working hard on stuffing my face with more high quality foods. It is really hard getting all of that down, sometimes feels like I am a turkey stuffed for Thanksgiving. Much of the day my belly feels all bloated with all of that food, eating every 2 hours or so. As far as training, Im using drop sets and some rest pause training. I am also doing some "feeder sets" for lagging bodyparts -biceps and quads. Doing 3 of these feeder sets the day after training that bodypart, reps of 16-20. I have picked up over 1/2 an inch on my arms.
> Ive been using dbol as an oral and going to switch over to halo for the last 2 weeks. Will be my first time using Halo, hoping for some good strength gains.


sounds like you did some research before starting well done, i love the dropsets to failure now we talking,
keep eating and keep me inform of results pls

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## evil pepsi

i have several cycles under my belt, all of which have been no less than 8 weeks in duration. i recently stumbled upon a short cycle by accident, and im really going to dig further into this. 
i started a basic cycle of the following:
week 1-4 50mg dbol ed
week 1-10 250mg test e twice a week

as i was starting the third week of test, i developed cellulitis in my shoulder. this started on a sunday. by thursday, i was in the doctors office facing possible surgery if no improvement showed within 48 hours. i was put on massive doses of bactrim and prednisone. 
i left the doc, and went straight to the gym. nothing was going to break me. will is that if im on my feet, i can train. get big or die trying. 
everyone that saw my arm said one of two things-either im crazy, or too damn dedicated, hehe. 
i took saturday and sunday off to allow my body to repair the damage, and to also keep pressure off my arm. the increased blood in the area made my skin feel as if it was splitting. 
as a result of the meds, i stopped the dbol, and quit the shots. as i said before, this amounted to roughly a three week cycle. at this time, i had gained 11lbs. granted, this was weight i had previously gained before, and thanks to the magic of muscle memory, it was coming back fast. 
my strength was exploding before all this.
i quit cold, with no pct, as i had planned to just go right back on as soon as the meds were done. after 10 days off, im still holding on to 7.5 of those pounds, and im still gaining strength. my sex drive is just as out of control as it was before, and im not feeling any sides.
i had read some about short cycles, and as a result of my experience, im curious as to whether this is the norm. im planning one more 3-4 week cycle of test and dbol soon, as this is all that i have at this time, and the cycle after that will be with different gear. i want to see if this is just a fluke event before i change it up. hell, if it works even half as well as before, i may just stick with short cycles from here on out. 
just out of curiosity, to optimize this, should i follow the pattern of ramping up three days prior to day zero?
im looking for ideas to experiment around with. could i load up with test at beginning, and bring dbol in halfway through? due to the hepatoxicity of the meds, mixed with my dbol usage, this next cycle will only be dbol for a maximum of two weeks, and i plan on giving my liver at least six months before i use anything stronger than anavar , if i even incorporate an oral in my next cycle(s).
i plan on running pct for no less than 4 weeks in between cycles, and also plan on documenting every change in my body, both good and bad. i may post my results on here for all to see just to either shoot holes in all this, or to support the concept.
my diet is very sound, as i dont eat junk food. i build it around the basics-milk and meat. im blessed with being hyper, which means my metabolism is very fast, so fat is not an issue. 
my training is very intense. here is a sample of the way i train chest (pecs respond the best for me, so this routine is not as intense as other bodyparts):
-3 light sets of cable crossovers to pre-exhaust pecs. squeeze pecs (peak contraction) at full contraction for no less than three seconds. continue until failure.
-3 sets of bench. hit failure (300x10), do a few forced, drop weight(225), do forced negatives until complete failure, drop weight (135, which now feels like 300lbs) and try to do a few static reps as my partner presses down. i hold it until my arms shake. i then try to squeeze out as many partial reps as possible, until i cant move the bar off my chest. 
-2 sets of incline presses 250 to failure, again using forced reps.
in between sets, im squeezing and contracting my pecs, as well as stretching them. this is a short, brutal, and intense routine, at least for me. the weights might seem low for some, but thanks to the pre-exhausting effect of the crossovers, i dont have to push a lot of weight. 
my foundation is solid, so im interested in trying this quick cycle with what i have, and then following the guidelines marcus has set up as far as priming. 
the way i see it is i really have nothing to lose in this, so why not test it out for myself. as i said in another thread, i may post my progress as i go, just so everyone can draw a conclusion for themselves...

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## G-Force

> Yes, I am working hard on stuffing my face with more high quality foods. It is really hard getting all of that down, sometimes feels like I am a turkey stuffed for Thanksgiving. Much of the day my belly feels all bloated with all of that food, eating every 2 hours or so. As far as training, Im using drop sets and some rest pause training. I am also doing some "feeder sets" for lagging bodyparts -biceps and quads. Doing 3 of these feeder sets the day after training that bodypart, reps of 16-20. I have picked up over 1/2 an inch on my arms.
> Ive been using dbol as an oral and going to switch over to halo for the last 2 weeks. Will be my first time using Halo, hoping for some good strength gains.



what are the benefits of these feeder sets?

its the first i have heard of them

surel if you have trained intensely enough the day before - there is no need for these feeder sets ?

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## marcus300

> what are the benefits of these feeder sets?
> 
> its the first i have heard of them
> 
> surel *if you have trained intensely enough the day before - there is no need for these feeder sets* ?


yes am thinking the same way.

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## marcus300

For all who are intrested i will be posting a full detailed log and results form a prime and short heavy cycle from a well trusted ex memeber (warrior)from this site in the next 2 days, its well worth a read and will shock some bb's,

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## Maldorf

> what are the benefits of these feeder sets?
> 
> its the first i have heard of them
> 
> surel if you have trained intensely enough the day before - there is no need for these feeder sets ?


Something I stumbled on doing some research online. I had actually tried something similar in the past, but just did it haphazardly. The idea is to use high reps to increase blood flow to the muscle which will help recovery by getting rid of toxins and bringing in nutrients. After trying this on my biceps for several months in the past, I could actually see a visible difference in the size and quality of the muscle. I also felt like strength picked up a bit. It does nothing to further fatigue the muscle, so it cant hurt. I gave it a try and it seems to work for me. I usually just toss the sets in inbetween what I am training that day. I stay in the range on 18-20 reps on these 3 sets. ALways do an isolation exercise too, not a compound movement. Right now I am doing cable cross over bicep curls and leg extensions. Oh, I would like to add that after doing the "feeder sets" that muscle feels much less stiff and gets an incredible pump. I feel that it aids in the recovery.

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## G-Force

> Something I stumbled on doing some research online. I had actually tried something similar in the past, but just did it haphazardly. The idea is to use high reps to increase blood flow to the muscle which will help recovery by getting rid of toxins and bringing in nutrients. After trying this on my biceps for several months in the past, I could actually see a visible difference in the size and quality of the muscle. I also felt like strength picked up a bit. It does nothing to further fatigue the muscle, so it cant hurt. I gave it a try and it seems to work for me. I usually just toss the sets in inbetween what I am training that day. I stay in the range on 18-20 reps on these 3 sets. ALways do an isolation exercise too, not a compound movement. Right now I am doing cable cross over bicep curls and leg extensions. Oh, I would like to add that after doing the "feeder sets" that muscle feels much less stiff and gets an incredible pump. I feel that it aids in the recovery.



makes sense i suppose
worth thinking about

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## armbar83

this whole thread has been really informative. i was wondering if someone could direct me towards or add some more information (most recommended stacks/general percentage increases/pct) concerning short cycles for novice/intermediate folks (or if they should even be considered). also looking foward to that log and wondering if it was posted elsewhere...thanks

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## AleX-69

> this whole thread has been really informative. i was wondering *if someone could direct me towards or add some more information (most recommended stacks/general percentage increases/pct) concerning short cycles for novice/intermediate folks* (or if they should even be considered). also looking foward to that log and wondering if it was posted elsewhere...thanks



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...30#post2490430

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## armbar83

thanks!

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## Property of Steroid.com

> i think its pretty well established that they work (at least somewhat, eventhough I suspect them to be VERY effective).. to me the question is long term safety.. that Im not convinced yet...


There's no question that taking a TON of steroids over a short time is going to work. The question is whether that works better than moderate dosages over a long time, etc...

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## twiney

Article by Paul Borrenson
The following article was written by the late Paul Borrenson. .

Does the human race not strive for the security of mediocrity. It takes courage to stand out, to be different. To be controversial. Here I am perhaps a controversial amongst controversial's. Nobody would notice you if you where small. I guess you can live with a little attention.
Nobody is going to notice me if I rehash other peoples ideas. Guess I can live with that. I have worked hard for more than a decade coaching and learning to get to where I am now. I have pretty much personally experienced everything I write about. If I cannot defend it I will not say it.
If you have the knowledge to make you a 200 LB man then a 230 LB man will have controversial things to say and all the little 200 LB people will criticize the lone 230 LOB person. This is simply an extension of the drive for mediocrity.
Neitzce said:

THAT YOU CAN DETERMINE THE WEAKNESS OF A MANS PERSONALITY BY THE AMOUNT OF CRITISISM THAT COMES FROM HIS MOUTH.

I moved to a new house in country with my wife and children. Bought myself that Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppy and completed The Stack Book. I finally managed to read The History Of Western Philosophy after 3 years, trained ate, slept and attended to my business.
I imagine a dog with a bowl of chicken happily eating its food when three other dogs come along and start growling. They want the food. If the dog looks up from its meal and growls back at one of the dogs the other two will move in and steal the food. The dog with the chicken needs to keep his head down and continue eating. Eventually the other dogs will start fighting amongst themselves or move onto another potential victim.
This is an important lesson. If you are to truly succeed as a bodybuilder then you need to keep your eyes well and truly focused on your bowl of food. Focus, do not let things distract you from achieving your objectives. Before we get into hard core use of pharmaceuticals lets agree for the thousandth time that you have to eat every couple of hours, consume plenty of quality protein, train your butt off in the gym. Go to bed early each night.
Success is about being a participator rather than a spectator in your own life. Successful people do not stay up all night wrapped up in mindless gossip. They eat and get to bed.
From a platform of doing the basics we can open our eyes and our minds to untold possibilities. Scary stuff for the uninitiated. Remember the first time you injected yourself. Scary at the time and now you probably think nothing of it. Well, perhaps it is time to scare you again.
Extreme dose use of anabolic steroids does occur. It was inevitable given the mentality of us bodybuilders. I talk daily to people using 1- 5 grams a week. Not just the odd person hundred of people.
I am not advocating such use. However, I will tell you how it is done.
First it is not done all the time. It is a now and then stack to blast through sticking points. I am a part of a scientific study at The University Of South Glamorgan in Cardiff. WE are looking at long term steroid users and assessing their health over many parameters. The people that have injured themselves are the people that stay on small to moderate doses all of the time. Later in the year Fergal Grace and myself with have a few papers published supporting my claim.
I believe but do not as yet have the scientific evidence to support me that. High dose short duration cycles are much less harmful than longer moderate or even low dose courses.

I propose 15 - 30 day cycles with doses 1,000 mg a day.

Understand this, a course of this magnitude will produce rapid tissue gain and contradict much of what you currently believe. The possibility of it will attacked by skinny old men an ex champions alike. I say this, unless you have tried it do not knock it.
You are not going to hurt yourself in 25 days. If you keep a watch for the danger signs such as rising blood pressure you can make appropriate adjustments as you go along. After such a stack I would have 15 days clear. The stack should be designed in such as way that the gear eliminates as the off period begins.
I would then do a consolidation programme low dose. Under 1 mg per kg bodyweight per day for 6 weeks. The cycle logic I proposed in my first book The Anabolic Edge. Then I would have a 30 day break.
I believe that breaks longer than 30 days are unproductive. However, not having the breaks at all is downright stupid.
In our new book The Stack Book (the alpha session) Bill and I have a 10 point countdown before starting any programme let alone a big one.
Preparation is everything. I imagine an airplane ready to take off. It starts up it engine, taxis out onto the run way and builds up speed. All the while the pilot initiates pre-flight checks. If anything is wrong the plane aborts.
Too often we rush into programmes without adequate preparation and the plan comes crashing down.
Health matters. Sick people cannot possibly grow. So, if you are going to seriously have a crack at one of my short duration high dose programmes do the preflight checks first.

PREFLIGHT CHECKS COUNTDOWN TO THE STACKS……………..

10.
Diet is good: lots of protein, balanced nutrition, not an entirely liquid diet. Any protein supplements, not whey alone, but blends of different isolates.
9.
Getting plenty of quality rest. A good 8 hours every night. If not, then this could be the first pharmaceutical step you should consider. Something to help you sleep. Once you go on a stack this will get even harder. Unless you sleep well, in which case leave well alone, augment your sleep with a safe option.
Absolutely never use GHB…This is no bodybuilding drug and has screwed up more people that Cannabis and Nubain put together. I despise all of these drugs. I was once addicted to nubain and it crept up on me and swallowed me whole for a while.
GHB does stimulate serotonin and this makes for a little GH production, but it stimulates considerably more cortisol and this makes for the big muscle shrink.
I prefer a simple benzodiazapene taken intermittently to avoid the possibility of dependence. Twice or three times a week when you really need it. Products of choice are -
Lorazepam 50mg aka Seresta, aka oxazepan.
Diazepam 10-15 mg.
Nitrazepam 50mg.
Tamazipam lingers the next day too much.
Another possibility is a good hypnotic which puts you to sleep but wears off once you are in deep sleep. These are non-addictive.
Zopiclone
Benzo's are the world's ultimate GH stimulators as well. You must be careful to not take them then go out. Be strict on yourself and have deliberate nights when you do and do not use them. I use them after back and legs.
Stay away from the latest Hypnoval craze, you lose time on this drug and do not use Nubain under any circumstances, it is insidious and horrible and has ruined more bodybuilders than I can remember.
8.
There is no point starting the stack if you cannot get to the gym over the next few weeks. Select a stack that is appropriate to your imminent lifestyle. Likewise, if you are injured or your wife is about to have a baby. Think before you launch before you press the fire button on the stack rocket. Are all systems go ?
7.
Health. Are you ill ? If so, is it something that will clear up with a good course of antibiotics ? Remember, a gear course will first drop your immune system, so if you are sick now you will be worse shortly after and this will crash the rocket.
Most infections can easily be killed off using a course of antibiotics. Indeed there is the high possibility that you are low grade. What do I mean by this ?
Low grade means that you carry a virus in your body at a level, which your immune system can control but it cannot put out the fire.
A good friend of mine called Mick had not gained for two years. He was unmotivated, having problems sleeping and feeling very low. I studied his blood test and I suspected that he was low grade, his thyroid was low to mid-normal and his globulin was elevated, a clear sign of someone fighting an infection.
Mick took Inosine Pranobex for 20 days, 4 tablets a day. He has gained over 40 LB in the year since and his life changed within a week for the better. He had been low grade.
Inosine Pranobex fortifies the immune system against viral infection and I use a course twice a year or if I am run down cannot shake off a virus.
For general bacterial infections antibiotics are a must.
My preferences are: Doxycyline, 100mg per day.
Otherwise amoxicillin 3 times, 500mg per day combined with tetracycline which kills one particular anaerobe that amoxicillin cannot get.
For abscesses, you cannot beat Augmentin, which is far superior to fluhroxicillin; the cheaper alternative.
6.
Finances: be sure that you can afford the stack you are about to undertake. There is no point over-stretching yourself and not having enough money to eat. I believe that the runway ahead should be clear from the start. I like to have everything I am going to need ready in my special cupboard at the start. This way you can always build little pyramids with the gearboxes and castles with the protein tubs.
5.
Remove All demotivators. There are things that will bring our rocket down onto the ground . For the most part these are optional wrong choices that we are making in our daily lives and these must be eliminated immediately if we are truly hardcore and really going for the finish line. Cannabis is one of the worst drugs for bodybuilding that I can think of. It is the single most potent demotivator. Do not tell me that it stimulates androgen production or that it chills you out. I have seen a cannabis addict tear up his floorboards looking for something he had hidden.
Cannabis produces oestrogen, fact of life. Cannabis negatively affects the part of the mind that motivates us into taking action. It makes you do nothing when you should do something. Its users are prone to mood swings, irrational behavior, temper tantrums and worst of all a higher chance of bacterial infections.
Nubain. Second worst on the list. This is an opiate and single handedly destroyed an enormous section of British bodybuilding. It creeps up slowly on the users until they get needle frenzy and all the other aspects of an addiction .
I personally needed a week in detox to get rid of this stuff. Which is the only time I have been in detox, but it shows the extent of the Nubain problem. I entered with innocence thinking all those years ago that it suppressed my cortisol levels. It took me in, chewed me up and spat me out and I was still kicking and screaming.
GHB. Of late many people are getting GHB addiction and they are harder to deal with than straight heroin addicts. The users cannot feel good, no matter what they do, because they cannot produce enough seretonin. It appears that the damage is permanent and the only possible way back once you are really hooked is methadone.
People started having little sips throughout the day, which makes them, feel positive and more confident. This is similar to a cocaine addiction in perception and considerably worse because there is a genuine physical dependence with GHB.
ALCOHOL….The most obvious demotivator. I am not against the odd drink, but if you are going on a course and taking the risks involved there is no place for drinking.
4.
Even the best-laid plans of men can go wrong. Commit yourself now to your plan and be prepared to make adjustments. Have definite goals for what you are about to do. You should know where you should be at any given time or date. If you fall behind you must know how the stack works and why it works and make the appropriate adjustment.
Chart your course, navigate the way ahead and you will be on course, stay on course and arrive at your destination.
3.
POSITIVE ATTITUDE…..Be wary of people that will try to throw your rocket off course. Often these will be those closest to you. I find it better to keep quiet about what I am doing until I have done it. Negative people and negative thoughts must be thrown overboard right now.
2.
SUPPORT SYSTEMS. I rely heavily on my family and they enable me to realize all that I achieve and succeed in. Even the writing of this book, right now my wife is keeping the children happy in the other room. This is a part of my support system. My friend Kevin is collecting me for training in an hour, My staff help take phone calls so that I can write the book. These support systems are vital and you need to know and plan to make sure they are all "on-line".
1.
If everything goes wrong be prepared to make a conscious decision to abort early. If you fall ill or your dog gets sick and you cannot leave his side, then stop immediately regroup and start again later. The decision to abort should be made earlier rather than later. Do not press on regardless if the plane is going to come down, land now, not later.
Of course with all being well this will not be the case.

EXAMPLE OF A HIGH DOSE SHORT DURATION STACK

18 DAYS IN A MASSAGE PARLOUR STACK
This is a sophisticated stack and I wrote it for a current Mr. Universe to enable this person to gain more mass over the Christmas period. We use this stack on the back of a successful period of gains after competition. This is the second course for Mr. Universe since the show so his bodyweight has reached a plateau and something new and juicy is required to get things moving.
There is a need for oestrogen buffering firstly it is a good anti-catabolic strategy but also to keep control of the androgenic effects of the steroid aspects of this cycle.

EACH DAY:
40mg Tamoxifen 
1 Diazide tablet
Armidex 2 times 2mg per day
ANABOLIC
Two simple strategies were used. Insulin in the form of 30 IU Insulinard taken first thing in the morning rising by 5 IU a day until the peak of 55 IU was achieved. This does deliver a large dose of rapid acting insulin in the first 90 minutes as Insulintard is 30 percent fast acting. For this reason Mr. universe has to eat directly after taken the shot and again an hour later. Large meals with a total of 200 grams of carbohydrates which a 800 Kcals straight off.
Growth hormone taken in two microcyles throughout the 18 days of the cycle.
Days 5,6,7,8 4 IU each day take as two divided doses of 2 IU.
Days 12,13 8 IU taken as four divided doses of 2 IU
Also T3 at a small dose of 25 MCG a day was recommended. " days on one days off this is purely to increment metabolic activity.
THE ANTICATABOLIC ASPECT
We took 2 bottles of Capristan The real product. Both had 50 ML
ONLY AVAILABLE FROM MYSELF AT THE MOMENT.

We called them bottles A and B:

BOTTLE A
We added
20 ML Deca 2,00
20 ML Primo Depot
10 ML Test propionate 

BOTTLE B
We added
20 Ml Testosterone Enanthate 
20 Ml Sustanon 
10 Ml Testosterone Propionate 
This is how the course was structured. Remember this is a big man. Over 330 LB in good condition so you have to adjust accordingly…..

ALL SHOTS ARE LOCATED
DAYS 1- 5
10 Ml bottle A per day. Taken as 4 2.5 ML shots located.
DAYS 6-12
5 Ml bottle A and 5 Ml bottle B taken each day.
DAYS 13 - 18
10 Ml Bottle B taken each day…….
I hope that you enjoy my material and if my work is appreciated
Thank you for the support and I look forward to flying to South Carolina later in the year for the hardest hitting seminar, we will try to stop the world from going round that day. I also have an on-line seminar coming up and if you watch the pages of this magazine they will keep you posted. Whatever you do, don't let the human drive for mediocrity slow you down. Decide for yourself.

PAUL R BORRESEN

----------


## stupidhippo

what was Paul B's cause of death?

----------


## goose

> what was Paul B's cause of death?



To call renegade pharmacologist Paul Borresen an authority on drug usage is an enormous understatement. When it comes to firsthand experience, Paul may very well be the authority! Slin,DNP ,IGF he was pretty much the first clan of guys to trial.I can't think of too many people who have pushed the pharmacological envelope as far as Paul. Yet, what makes this remarkable man so different than many of the old bodybuilders who merely stay on whatever gear they can get for as long as they can get it, Paul was one of the most knowledgeable people around in the science of anabolic steroids back in the day,you have to remeber this was the time when test was considered dirty,you had stacks like deca and Dbol .

Some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen had both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?

He was an insane guy,lots of cash,had a coke habit,like many AAS users.He had a devastating car crash which caused a major back injury,the mix with strong painkillers and coke caused his death not AAS.

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## guest589745

I dont think I will ever be able to do short heavy cycles simply because when my doses are in the high range, I feel like shit and cant even eat/workout right.

Moderate longer cycles seem like my only option really.

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## Bigmax

Goose pm coming your way bro..

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## marcus300

> I dont think I will ever be able to do short heavy cycles simply because when my doses are in the high range, I feel like shit and cant even eat/workout right.
> 
> Moderate longer cycles seem like my only option really.


yes but the whole idea you can implement into a cycle with dosages what work for you, not everyone as to use high dose, its the whole idea priming,training,designing a cycle to suit and the diet what makes tghis whole work

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## Property of Steroid.com

> what was Paul B's cause of death?


Overdose on Painkillers, I think....

Jason Meuller (a friend of mine) said he was rarely sober/straight...

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## marcus300

> Overdose on Painkillers, I think....
> 
> Jason Meuller (a friend of mine) said he was rarely sober/straight...


 This is copied from a previous post a did afew months ago, it might help you understand alittle better on the subject-

To call renegade pharmacologist Paul Borresen an authority on drug usage is an enormous understatement. When it comes to firsthand experience, Paul may very well be the authority! I can't think of too many people who have pushed the pharmacological envelope as far as Paul. Yet, what makes this remarkable man so different than many of the pro bodybuilders who merely stay on whatever gear they can get for as long as they can get it, Paul is one of the most knowledgeable people around in the science of anabolic steroids .

University trained, Paul received his bachelor's degree in biochemistry. He graduated with first-class honors. He then went on to get his master's degree in pharmacology, specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function. He's had his work published in medical journals throughout the world, written several books, and had over 200 articles appear in magazines on the various aspects of steroid use and their application to bodybuilding. When some of the top professionals need advice on how to arrange their stacks and cycles for a major show, they call Paul. That list of top professionals?according to Paul?even includes a fellow by the name of Dorian Yates.

Some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen has both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?

If you're opposed to the radical usage of performance-enhancement drugs, then move on?get the heck out of here. This article isn't for you. For those of you with a more daring nature who'd like to learn from this particular master, you may proceed?with caution.


You can believe whatever you want about Paul but ive studied short cycles weather they are light or heavy and ive have research going back over years, ive tried every kind of cycling and i am a firm believer in short cycles of anykind, if the correct things are in place the muscle growth is amazing,weather you believe Paul to be any good or not that doesnt mean his theory behind short cycling doesnt work, there have been many Top BB who have stated when they have retired that they did this type of cycling, here are some of PB's books he wrote it might be better if you read up on the subject first Anthony, hope it helps 

Anabolic Edge,-1,The Anabolic Edge 2001
Written by the legend PB, this masterpiece, if you had to pick one, would be the best because it details the combination of drugs, supplements and foods and how they interact anabolically with each other more thoroughly than any steroid book. 

The Stack,- How To Stack Steroids 
The Stack Master strikes again. But this time Paul devotes an entire book The Stack to this most fascinating subject. Now youll easily be certified by the post office as a new zip code once you try any one of the dozens of stacks Paul has used to manufacture the biggest bodybuilders in the world. Must be 21 to read! The most controversial steroid book on the market.

The Big Secret,
The governor (mag)
Testosterone magazine,

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## Property of Steroid.com

In the end, in my estimation, Paul had people shooting a bottle (or more) per day of anabolics, and they got bigger. I don't see the genius in that.

I think it's unsafe and irresponsible, honestly.

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## twiney

http://www.anabolicextreme.com/anabo...ssue47_MAD.htm

This is a good read on paul.

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## Property of Steroid.com

> http://www.anabolicextreme.com/anabo...ssue47_MAD.htm
> 
> This is a good read on paul.


That was written by my buddy Jason Meuller. 

Jason and I are currently working on a joint project (article) concerning steroids , if anyone is interested.

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## twiney

> That was written by my buddy Jason Meuller. 
> 
> Jason and I are currently working on a joint project (article) concerning steroids, if anyone is interested.




Would be great if you get get the rest of the interview,and post it here from him.

Who is Jason Meuller? A destrcption? He writer like you?

----------


## marcus300

> In the end, in my estimation, Paul had people shooting a bottle (or more) per day of anabolics, and they got bigger. I don't see the genius in that.
> 
> I think it's unsafe and irresponsible, honestly.


 I feel some form of jealously creeping in here with your comments Anthony, you have no idea about anything concerning PB only what you read but many things were happening with PB and his supplement companys in the UK and USA which caused many reports about his death, 

tghis is fro previous post re-read it-

University trained, Paul received his bachelor's degree in biochemistry. He graduated with first-class honors. He then went on to get his master's degree in pharmacology, specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function. He's had his work published in medical journals throughout the world, written several books, and had over 200 articles appear in magazines on the various aspects of steroid use and their application to bodybuilding. When some of the top professionals need advice on how to arrange their stacks and cycles for a major show, they call Paul. That list of top professionals?even includes a fellow by the name of Dorian Yates.

Some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen has both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?

For me he speaks for himself and your opinion is yours to have just like mine about todays so called steriod guros who copy other people work and many look like long distant runners, and many have a motive which is money driven, they are always selling something with magical powers, for me id rather listen to someone who as credability and looks like a bodybuilder dont you agree?

----------


## BIG_T_MC06

> I feel some form of jealously creeping in here with your comments Anthony, you have no idea about anything concerning PB only what you read but many things were happening with PB and his supplement companys in the UK and USA which caused many reports about his death, 
> 
> tghis is fro previous post re-read it-
> 
> University trained, Paul received his bachelor's degree in biochemistry. He graduated with first-class honors. He then went on to get his master's degree in pharmacology, specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function. He's had his work published in medical journals throughout the world, written several books, and had over 200 articles appear in magazines on the various aspects of steroid use and their application to bodybuilding. When some of the top professionals need advice on how to arrange their stacks and cycles for a major show, they call Paul. That list of top professionals?even includes a fellow by the name of Dorian Yates.
> 
> Some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen has both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?
> 
> For me he speaks for himself and your opinion is yours to have just like mine about todays so called steriod guros who copy other people work and many look like long distant runners, and many have a motive which is money driven, they are always selling something with magical powers, for me id rather listen to someone who as credability and looks like a bodybuilder dont you agree?



DEAD ON THERE MARCUS MATE, COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

I myself have followed the more conventional style cycles until i began reading more and more about PB. After talking to marcus and several other BBer's from other boards (who were associates of pauls) i decided to try PB methods of cycling and training and i can honestly say that both far superseeded my expectations of them.

Paul was an authority on AAS and results speak for themselves, the guy was a monster. I wonder if some of todays gurus will have their work and cycle methods talked about and utilised years after they have gone?

Also his supplement company (dont no wheather or not to post the name?) is still producing some of the best supps around! 

T

----------


## marcus300

> DEAD ON THERE MARCUS MATE, COULD NOT AGREE MORE.
> 
> I myself have followed the more conventional style cycles until i began reading more and more about PB. After talking to marcus and several other BBer's from other boards (who were associates of pauls) i decided to try PB methods of cycling and training and i can honestly say that both far superseeded my expectations of them.
> 
> Paul was an authority on AAS and results speak for themselves, the guy was a monster. I wonder if some of todays gurus will have their work and cycle methods talked about and utilised years after they have gone?
> 
> Also his supplement company (dont no wheather or not to post the name?) is still producing some of the best supps around! 
> 
> T


Yet another positive reply regarding this method, you make some valid points and your experience of using and understanding the whole process just concrets the idea yet again,

some on this board have motives to why they would say such strange remarks and it shows how desperate they are, thankyou for your post just backs up even more

----------


## BIG_T_MC06

> Yet another positive reply regarding this method, you make some valid points and your experience of using and understanding the whole process just concrets the idea yet again,
> 
> some on this board have motives to why they would say such strange remarks and it shows how desperate they are, thankyou for your post just backs up even more


No problem bro

The whole PB statement about determining the stregnth of a persons character by the amount of criticism that comes out of their mouth is relevant here yet again.

I think more people should take the short cycling approach when using AAS, even if it not done at high dose only moderate. I found that the sides decreased when i started short cycles and i feel a whole lot better in myself (mind set/outlook and physique wise) now when both on and off cycles. And as an added bonus for us juicers time off can be decreased when utilising shorter legnth cycles.

several people on here will follow the train of thought "i dont like what i dont know." If everyone were like this then bodybuilders would have not reached the phenominal sizes possible these days. 

I challenge any doubters to give 3-5 weeks of thier time to try a well designed, properly structured short cycle, of course the proper preperation must be done (priming) before hand. Keep a log and come back to this thread and see if your views have changed...

T

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> I feel some form of jealously creeping in here with your comments Anthony, you have no idea about anything concerning PB only what you read but many things were happening with PB and his supplement companys in the UK and USA which caused many reports about his death, 
> 
> tghis is fro previous post re-read it-
> 
> University trained, Paul received his bachelor's degree in biochemistry. He graduated with first-class honors. He then went on to get his master's degree in pharmacology, specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function. He's had his work published in medical journals throughout the world, written several books, and had over 200 articles appear in magazines on the various aspects of steroid use and their application to bodybuilding. When some of the top professionals need advice on how to arrange their stacks and cycles for a major show, they call Paul. That list of top professionals?even includes a fellow by the name of Dorian Yates.
> 
> Some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen has both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?
> 
> For me he speaks for himself and your opinion is yours to have just like mine about todays so called steriod guros who copy other people work and many look like long distant runners, and many have a motive which is money driven, they are always selling something with magical powers, for me id rather listen to someone who as credability and looks like a bodybuilder dont you agree?


I don't see why I'd be jealous of somebody who really hasn't made as much of a name for himself as I have. I think his writing is unsafe, impractical, and irresponsible. I think everyone should avoid him...and judging from the fact that almost nothing of his is reposted, ever, anywhere on the 'net, it appears that most people have disregarded him entirely...as they should.

Honestly, his ideas are being discussed here, and I think they're idiotic. I am not criticising the man himself, but rather an idea (Short Heavy Cycles) which has no scientific foundation. If we're not here to discuss the idea, then why even post it up?

Im not trying to be negative, but honestly, I think his ideas are terrible, and to then attack me for saying that, call me jealous, or assail my character for presenting valid critique of his ideas only tells me that his ideas don't stand up to valid scrutiny.

----------


## BIG_T_MC06

Have you ever tried a short heavy cycle anthoy?

----------


## Maldorf

> Have you ever tried a short heavy cycle anthoy?


Any true scientific authority would be the first to test a theory, but sometimes its just easier to pick it apart.

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## Property of Steroid.com

> Have you ever tried a short heavy cycle anthoy?


I've never tried Cyanide. I'm pretty sure I know what would happen if I did. Since I'm an athlete and not a BB'er, this particular method (short/heavy) would be counterproductive for me, personally. When I used 4g/week of anabolics, I couldn't play my sport very well.

----------


## Maldorf

> I've never tried Cyanide. I'm pretty sure I know what would happen if I did. Since I'm an athlete and not a BB'er, this particular method (short/heavy) would be counterproductive for me, personally. When I used 4g/week of anabolics, I couldn't play my sport very well.


I can see your reasoning here, its all depends on your goals. You wouldnt see Ronnie Coleman running around kicking a soccer ball, and in the same sense if a pro soccer player got up on the olympia stage people would laugh them off. Just because your goals dont coincide with the short heavy theory doesnt make it uneffective.

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## Property of Steroid.com

> I can see your reasoning here, its all depends on your goals. You wouldnt see Ronnie Coleman running around kicking a soccer ball, and in the same sense if a pro soccer player got up on the olympia stage people would laugh them off. Just because your goals dont coincide with the short heavy theory doesnt make it uneffective.


Correct. And I admit that short/heavy cycles work. I think they don't work as well as other (much safer) alternatives. 

I feel that logically (empirically) as well as medically, they don't have a solid foundation for working as well as other types of cycles. 

Using the analogy of professional bodybuilders doesn't really work though...they never come off. They increase the dose or change compounds for their contests, but they don't come off at all. 

To be fair, I think someone would need to run a short heavy cycle, and then COME OFF, and compare the gains they keep with the gains from a traditional cycle. And they'd also have to see whether their blood work comes back to within acceptable range more quickly...which I suspect would be the same from a short/heavy cycle as with a traditional one.

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## marcus300

> Correct. And I admit that short/heavy cycles work. I think they don't work as well as other (much safer) alternatives. 
> 
> I feel that logically (empirically) as well as medically, they don't have a solid foundation for working as well as other types of cycles. 
> 
> Using the analogy of professional bodybuilders doesn't really work though...they never come off. They increase the dose or change compounds for their contests, but they don't come off at all. 
> 
> To be fair, I think someone would need to run a short heavy cycle, and then COME OFF, and compare the gains they keep with the gains from a traditional cycle. And they'd also have to see whether their blood work comes back to within acceptable range more quickly...which I suspect would be the same from a short/heavy cycle as with a traditional one.


 Finally you admit they work and all i can say is results from my studies/cycle logs/reports speak for themselves, to many BB's say different than you for it not to work and be safer, so your opinion, lets get back to what we are all here for,

like ive said i have no motive for saying this, ive got nothing to sell or trying to generate more buisness trying to make BB's believe every word i say,

back to the subject i think

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Finally you admit they work and all i can say is results from my studies/cycle logs/reports speak for themselves, to many BB's say different than you for it not to work and be safer, so your opinion, lets get back to what we are all here for,
> 
> like ive said i have no motive for saying this, ive got nothing to sell or trying to generate more buisness trying to make BB's believe every word i say,
> 
> back to the subject i think


I NEVER said that taking a shit load of steroids won't make you bigger. I'm saying that there's better and safer ways to make the same gains. 

PB had guys taking over a bottle per day of anabolics. That's going to make you bigger...then he combined it with Slin, GH, etc, etc...

Here's a hot tip:

Anything will work with those doses.

But it's unsafe, and there's better ways to make the same gains.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Finally you admit they work and all i can say is results from my studies/cycle logs/reports speak for themselves, to many BB's say different than you for it not to work and be safer, so your opinion, lets get back to what we are all here for,
> 
>  like ive said i have no motive for saying this, ive got nothing to sell or trying to generate more buisness trying to make BB's believe every word i say,
> 
> back to the subject i think


Does that mean that because you don't earn money from this, the advice you give can't be wrong? 

Or that you can't possibly follow/give terrible advice, because you don't earn money? 

Honestly, isn't your criticism of me for earning money on writing about steroids applicable to PB also? I mean...if you can't trust me because I earn a living from writing about steroids and selling products, then logically, you can't trust PB either, right?

----------


## marcus300

> Does that mean that because you don't earn money from this, the advice you give can't be wrong? 
> 
> Or that you can't possibly follow/give terrible advice, because you don't earn money? 
> 
> Honestly, isn't your criticism of me for earning money on writing about steroids applicable to PB also? I mean...if you can't trust me because I earn a living from writing about steroids and selling products, then logically, you can't trust PB either, right?


i never mentioned you at all Anthony, why would you think i meant you, i said i have nothing to gain not like some on here, i have no idea what your up to or here for, 

I am just the messanger, all the reports/studies/cyclelogs and everyone posting on here tells you something different than what your saying, you contridict yourself allthe time, you say one thing then say another,

i am sorry if i hit a nerve with you but i would rather take it from BB's who have done it and tried it and have reports saying what happened than someone who didnt understand the whole process, ie priming!!

all we are doing is going back and forth, if i have upset in anyway i apoligies but you did say some remarkable comments with little knowledge,

results speak for themself- end of story

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> i never mentioned you at all Anthony, why would you think i meant you, i said i have nothing to gain not like some on here, i have no idea what your up to or here for, 
> 
> I am just the messanger, all the reports/studies/cyclelogs and everyone posting on here tells you something different than what your saying, you contridict yourself allthe time, you say one thing then say another,
> 
> i am sorry if i hit a nerve with you but i would rather take it from BB's who have done it and tried it and have reports saying what happened than someone who didnt understand the whole process, ie priming!!
> 
> all we are doing is going back and forth, if i have upset in anyway i apoligies but you did say some remarkable comments with little knowledge,
> 
> results speak for themself- end of story


One or two (three or four) people here have said that this method worked for them. Everyone else uses the traditional method. Stop overstating your claims.

----------


## marcus300

> One or two (three or four) people here have said that this method worked for them. Everyone else uses the traditional method. Stop overstating your claims.


Read previous post Anthony , i have many and many have reported on here, just atke a look at warriors results, 

i am sorry if i hit a nerve with you but i would rather take it from BB's who have done it and tried it and have reports saying what happened than someone who didnt understand the whole process, ie priming!!

all we are doing is going back and forth, if i have upset in anyway i apoligies but you did say some remarkable comments with little knowledge,

results speak for themself- end of story

you want to carry on PM me but i do find it hard to take anything form you on this subject with any credability, and with you carrying on trying to discredit people reports or methods of cycle just shows many thing to me and others,

best of luck to you in your goal :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Maldorf

> One or two (three or four) people here have said that this method worked for them. Everyone else uses the traditional method. Stop overstating your claims.


Well, as Marcus has said, this method isnt for everyone. It is for those that have much lifting experience and have been cycling AAS for many years and hit a plateu. For this reason there really havent been that many to try it. I have earned very mediocre results from the past couple of years of cycling the traditional way, and when I tried my first short heavy cycle I made gains faster than ever. The dosages I used really werent that much higher than I would normally use. Now I am in PCT and will have to see how recovery goes. 
For most people, especially those just starting out, the traditional method of longer cycles works just fine.

----------


## marcus300

> Well, as Marcus has said, this method isnt for everyone. It is for those that have much lifting experience and have been cycling AAS for many years and hit a plateu. For this reason there really havent been that many to try it. I have earned very mediocre results from the past couple of years of cycling the traditional way, and when I tried my first short heavy cycle I made gains faster than ever. The dosages I used really werent that much higher than I would normally use. Now I am in PCT and will have to see how recovery goes. 
> For most people, especially those just starting out, the traditional method of longer cycles works just fine.


Yes i agree its a good way of spring boarding yourself into new growth if your not getting the gains you desire, but saying that it can be adjusted to suit nearly any level,

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Read previous post Anthony , i have many and many have reported on here, just atke a look at warriors results, 
> 
> i am sorry if i hit a nerve with you but i would rather take it from BB's who have done it and tried it and have reports saying what happened than someone who didnt understand the whole process, ie priming!!
> 
> all we are doing is going back and forth, if i have upset in anyway i apoligies but you did say some remarkable comments with little knowledge,
> 
> results speak for themself- end of story
> 
> you want to carry on PM me but i do find it hard to take anything form you on this subject with any credability, and with you carrying on trying to discredit people reports or methods of cycle just shows many thing to me and others,
> ...


Results don't speak for themselves. Results which are superior to others speak for themselves. And once again, you didn't hit a nerve...it's obvious to most people that the PB theory does NOT stand up to even the most cursory of critism.

----------


## marcus300

> Results don't speak for themselves. Results which are superior to others speak for themselves. And once again, you didn't hit a nerve...it's obvious to most people that the PB theory does NOT stand up to even the most cursory of critism.


I answered your question regarding PB and Dorian which yet again you ignore, yes there are many articles but people who knew him and how this game works at a high level will understand DY had to dismiss any claims PB was in his camp otherwise he wouldnt of got the Weider contract, surely you understand, its well know in the right circles,

I can post bloodwork but to be honest Anthony your only going to say i made them up and are false so its like banging my head on a brick wall with you, you have issues with me because i blow holes in everything you have said and to be honest you amuse me but if you want to carry on going back and forth do it through PM and not on the board pls,

I say again there are to many BB's who claim it works with good results, so if you dont believe them thats fine but your constant trying to pick holes into it as made you look rather daft, 

you can say it doesnt work because it does just take one report from warrior, i say good results, 

I dont have any motive Anthony to claim anything, i am not trying to sell any magic pills or want to generate more clients,I am not going back and forth because you have been shown wrong and your upset with me, listen i dont want to keep going back and forth so if you want to carry on and need to learn anymore about priming and other things surrounding this give me a PM, i will be happy to help,

But your not winning and am not carrying this stupid argument on, i had many PM's saying exact the same thing about how you are conducting yourself so chill out and move on,if you dont like it fine, but you dont understand the whole thing but ive tried to explain but your tunnel vissioned and there is only one view whats right and thats you, whats wrong with you calm down and get on with your job and educate people on this board or what ever motive you have being here,

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> I answered your question regarding PB and Dorian which yet again you ignore, yes there are many articles but people who knew him and how this game works at a high level will understand DY had to dismiss any claims PB was in his camp otherwise he wouldnt of got the Weider contract, surely you understand, its well know in the right circles,
> 
> I can post bloodwork but to be honest Anthony your only going to say i made them up and are false so its like banging my head on a brick wall with you, you have issues with me because i blow holes in everything you have said and to be honest you amuse me but if you want to carry on going back and forth do it through PM and not on the board pls,
> 
> I say again there are to many BB's who claim it works with good results, so if you dont believe them thats fine but your constant trying to pick holes into it as made you look rather daft, 
> 
> you can say it doesnt work because it does just take one report from warrior, i say good results, 
> 
> I dont have any motive Anthony to claim anything, i am not trying to sell any magic pills or want to generate more clients,I am not going back and forth because you have been shown wrong and your upset with me, listen i dont want to keep going back and forth so if you want to carry on and need to learn anymore about priming and other things surrounding this give me a PM, i will be happy to help,
> ...


It's sad that you keep trying to say that you've shown that I'm wrong. Honestly, everytime you are asked to provide REAL proof, you say that I don't understand something, or that you don't have any reason to lie, or that you aren't selling a product. 

Once again, lets see proof of HPTA recovery, via SCANNED bloodwork of someone before, during, and post-cycle. All I'm asking for is proof of your claims.

Lets disregard the fact that you don't have anything to sell (irrelevant) and that you think a study is an anecdote....lets see PROOF of your claims. That's all I'm asing for. Stop randomly declaring yourself the "winner" and saying you've shown me to be "wrong" (the people reading the thread can decide for themselves). 

_Lets see all of this proof you have_...scanned bloodwork, and pictures will suffice.

As for the claims made by PB vs/ Dorian....I noticed that Dorian never admitted to working with PB even after he was no longer under contract by Weider.

----------


## perfectbeast2001

Marcus has his theory which has worked well for some people. He does not need to back it up for anyone here. It is not a court of Law!! just a discussion forum where people can air there VIEWS and OPINIONS! No proof required.

----------


## Swifto

> I answered your question regarding PB and Dorian which yet again you ignore, yes there are many articles but people who knew him and how this game works at a high level will understand DY had to dismiss any claims PB was in his camp otherwise he wouldnt of got the Weider contract, surely you understand, its well know in the right circles,
> 
> I can post bloodwork but to be honest Anthony your only going to say i made them up and are false so its like banging my head on a brick wall with you, you have issues with me because i blow holes in everything you have said and to be honest you amuse me but if you want to carry on going back and forth do it through PM and not on the board pls,
> 
> I say again there are to many BB's who claim it works with good results, so if you dont believe them thats fine but your constant trying to pick holes into it as made you look rather daft, 
> 
> you can say it doesnt work because it does just take one report from warrior, i say good results, 
> 
> I dont have any motive Anthony to claim anything, i am not trying to sell any magic pills or want to generate more clients,I am not going back and forth because you have been shown wrong and your upset with me, listen i dont want to keep going back and forth so if you want to carry on and need to learn anymore about priming and other things surrounding this give me a PM, i will be happy to help,
> ...


These short burst cycles show muscle mass can be achieved, *but can it be maintained?*

I also cannot believe you didnt get Test, free Test, SHBG BW done also Marcus...

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Marcus has his theory which has worked well for some people. He does not need to back it up for anyone here. It is not a court of Law!! just a discussion forum where people can air there VIEWS and OPINIONS! No proof required.


Correct. Nobody has to proove anything about their cycle theories. But the inability/ to prove it should be weighted accordingly when deciding if this method is superior to any others.

----------


## perfectbeast2001

well im going to see if it works buy actually trying it!

----------


## marcus300

> It's sad that you keep trying to say that you've shown that I'm wrong. Honestly, everytime you are asked to provide REAL proof, you say that I don't understand something, or that you don't have any reason to lie, or that you aren't selling a product. 
> 
> Once again, lets see proof of HPTA recovery, via SCANNED bloodwork of someone before, during, and post-cycle. All I'm asking for is proof of your claims.
> 
> Lets disregard the fact that you don't have anything to sell (irrelevant) and that you think a study is an anecdote....lets see PROOF of your claims. That's all I'm asing for. Stop randomly declaring yourself the "winner" and saying you've shown me to be "wrong" (the people reading the thread can decide for themselves). 
> 
> _Lets see all of this proof you have_...scanned bloodwork, and pictures will suffice.
> 
> As for the claims made by PB vs/ Dorian....I noticed that Dorian never admitted to working with PB even after he was no longer under contract by Weider.


 you still wont give it up will you, whats wrong with you? 
pls re-read my previous post,

Am not intrested in agruing with you, you know if i post bloodwork you will say ive made them up or you dont believe it, so what if you dont,

OK Anthony you dont like it ok, its rubbish, it doesnt work, its bad for you, its not worth trying, i know nothing, i made it all up, everything you say is spot on and you know everything :Wink/Grin:  happy now

PM if you want to carry on, and let the people on this board soak up whats been posted by warrior and a few others and let them decide if they want to try it or not, am not intrested in your personal amusing comments of hot air

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## marcus300

> well im going to see if it works buy actually trying it!


Hey there you go, a educated BB who knows, try it and see!

thankyou

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## Property of Steroid.com

Here are Jason Meuller's words (slightly edited for length) on PB's claims that he worked with several other very well-known bodybuilders (all of whom DENIED doing anything PB told them to do). In fact, PB's "credentials" (degrees, people he worked with, pharmacology articles, published medical papers)...have all failed to have been verified by an independant third party! In short...MOST of what PB claimed...seems to have been disputed...he didn't have all of the degrees, scientific background, etc...that anybody who interviewed him was able to confirm!





> The day before this article was sent off to be posted, we contacted Ian Harrison by telephone in England to get his comments about some recent claims made on Biohazard849, Paul Borrseson's UK website. Specifically, Borreson is still claiming an association with Ian and claims Ian had nothing to do with the recent breakup. Here's what Ian had to say.
> 
> AE: Ian, what is the status of your relationship with Paul Borreson? 
> 
> Ian: I've split with Paul Borreson and I have no connection with Biohazard UK anymore.
> 
> AE: What role will you play, if any, in the future of Biohazard USA? 
> 
> Ian: My future is most definitely in the USA, and I feel confident I will be working with Trevor Smith.
> ...


Here's what Ron Harris wrote about PB, for T-N ation...apparently not only were Paul's claims about his credentials unable to be verified, they were TOTALLY ****ING FALSE!




> Stacked to Death" is John Romanos belated review of the late Paul Borresons book, _The Stack._ *Paul lost a great deal of credibility with T- Nation readers a couple years ago after it turned out the academic credentials he touted in an interview with us were false*, and his star client, Dorian Yates, claimed to have never associated with him. The insane quantities of steroids that Borreson advocates as a "quick fix" for the genetically average totaled up to nearly thirteen grams a week, a cycle he and his clients supposedly thrived on.


PB did NOT have all of those degrees, clients, etc...he was a ****ing FRAUD!

Believe who you want, but PB was a F-ing Fraud. He didn't have any of the credentials he claimed to have, nobody followed his advice, and he had nearly no idea what he was talking about.

----------


## marcus300

> Here are Jason Meuller's words (slightly edited for length) on PB's claims that he worked with several other very well-known bodybuilders (all of whom DENIED doing anything PB told them to do). In fact, PB's "credentials" (degrees, people he worked with, pharmacology articles, published medical papers)...have all failed to have been verified by an independant third party! In short...MOST of what PB claimed...seems to have been disputed...he didn't have all of the degrees, scientific background, etc...that anybody who interviewed him was able to confirm!
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what Ron Harris wrote about PB, for T-N ation...apparently not only were Paul's claims about his credentials unable to be verified, they were TOTALLY ****ING FALSE!
> 
> PB did NOT have all of those degrees, clients, etc...he was a ****ing FRAUD!
> 
> Believe who you want, but PB was a F-ing Fraud. He didn't have any of the credentials he claimed to have, nobody followed his advice, and he had nearly no idea what he was talking about.


your looking rather stupid with your constant bickering, ive told you the story regarding PB but you never take it in, you have tunnel vision Anthony do you really think he could claim such things if there are not true?

anyway what ever you say Anthony, one last thing TRY IT SEE IF IT WORKS BUT FULLY UNDERSTAND IT FIRST

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> your looking rather stupid with your constant bickering, ive told you the story regarding PB but you never take it in, you have tunnel vision Anthony do you really think he could claim such things if there are not true?


All of his claims were lies. T- Nation, Anabolic Extreme, etc...all confirmed that he did not have any of the credentials he said he had...he didn't have a degree in Biochemistry, Pharmacology, etc...and he certainly was never published in any medical journals as he claimed he had been. The successful routines that he wrote out were actually ghost written by other people, and the ones which failed were ones he wrote out. Upwards of 30 people he claimed to be involved with denied those claims...and after that he died of an overdose.

Honestly, I think the proof is all here for anyone who wants to look at it objectively. Several non-connected sources all say that he did not do or have any of the things he said he did. Instead of some grand conspiracy theory, isn't it more likely that he was simply a liar, and a junkie?

----------


## marcus300

> All of his claims were lies. T- Nation, Anabolic Extreme, etc...all confirmed that he did not have any of the credentials he said he had...he didn't have a degree in Biochemistry, Pharmacology, etc...and he certainly was never published in any medical journals as he claimed he had been. The successful routines that he wrote out were actually ghost written by other people, and the ones which failed were ones he wrote out. Upwards of 30 people he claimed to be involved with denied those claims...and after that he died of an overdose.
> 
> Honestly, I think the proof is all here for anyone who wants to look at it objectively. Several non-connected sources all say that he did not do or have any of the things he said he did. Instead of some grand conspiracy theory, isn't it more likely that he was simply a liar, and a junkie?


WOOOW Anthony your colours are really showing now, what ever you say am tired of going over the same old stuff, ive posted the truth many times but you just never take it in,

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> WOOOW Anthony your colours are really showing now, what ever you say am tired of going over the same old stuff, ive posted the truth many times but you just never take it in,


PB has been discredited in this thread. Why are you following him? And why can't you address the issue at hand, instead of attacking me, calling me jealous, saying my colors are showing, saying I look stupid, etc...?

The issue at hand is that T- Nation (T.C. Luoma, Brian Batchelodor, AND Ron Harris) all found that PB's credentials were falsified and lied about.

The issue at hand is that his old buisness partners ALSO said that PB did not have any of those credentials.

The issue at hand is that Jason Meuller ALSO said that PB did NOT have any of the credentials that he said he did. 

Why would they lie? They aren't connected with Weider, and have nothing to gain by attacking PB...

Seriously....can you stop attacking me and explain why everyone who has investigated PB has come to the conslusion that he did not have ANY of the academic or real-life credentials he claimed to have? We're not talking about possible political motivations of one BB'er (Dorian) here...we're talking about 100% of his claimed client list, a website he wrote for, and several other people who knew him as buisness partners...

Why are ALL of those people lying? Can you answer why EVERYBODY who has investigated PB has discovered he has no such degrees or clients? And can you answer that without attacking my character?

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

I want this post on this page as well...I think it bears repeating, so everyone can see that PB did NOT have ANY degree in ANYTHING he claimed, and that he was investigated, and found to have NO CREDENTIALS that he said he did!

Here are Jason Meuller's words (slightly edited for length) on PB's claims that he worked with several other very well-known bodybuilders (all of whom DENIED doing anything PB told them to do). In fact, PB's "credentials" (degrees, people he worked with, pharmacology articles, published medical papers)...have all failed to have been verified by an independant third party! In short...MOST of what PB claimed...seems to have been disputed...he didn't have all of the degrees, scientific background, etc...that anybody who interviewed him was able to confirm!





> Quote:
> The day before this article was sent off to be posted, we contacted Ian Harrison by telephone in England to get his comments about some recent claims made on Biohazard849, Paul Borrseson's UK website. Specifically, Borreson is still claiming an association with Ian and claims Ian had nothing to do with the recent breakup. Here's what Ian had to say.
> 
> AE: Ian, what is the status of your relationship with Paul Borreson? 
> 
> Ian: I've split with Paul Borreson and I have no connection with Biohazard UK anymore.
> 
> AE: What role will you play, if any, in the future of Biohazard USA? 
> 
> ...


 


> Quote:
> Stacked to Death" is John Romanos belated review of the late Paul Borresons book, _The Stack._ *Paul lost a great deal of credibility with T- Nation readers a couple years ago after it turned out the academic credentials he touted in an interview with us were false*, and his star client, Dorian Yates, claimed to have never associated with him. The insane quantities of steroids that Borreson advocates as a "quick fix" for the genetically average totaled up to nearly thirteen grams a week, a cycle he and his clients supposedly thrived on.


PB did NOT have all of those degrees, clients, etc...he was a ****ing FRAUD!

Believe who you want, but PB was a F-ing Fraud. He didn't have any of the credentials he claimed to have, nobody followed his advice, and he had nearly no idea what he was talking about.

Here's a comment about his ACTUAL stats (he competed as a light heavyweight):




> TREVOR SMITH: WHEN I FIRST CONTACTED PAUL HE TOLD ME HE WAS 285LBS IN 10% BODYFAT....WHEN I FINALLY SAW HIM FOR THE FIRST TIME HE WAS AROUND 245LBS. I HAVE ONLY SEEN PICTURES OF HIM IN CONTEST SHAPE AND HE WEIGHED AROUND 200LBS.....THE THING IS, IS THAT HE TOLD ME THAT HE WOULD BE 306LBS BY THE TIME OF THE SEMINAR, SO I PROMOTED HIM IN ALL THE ADVERTISEMENTS AS A 5'8'' 306LB FREAK OF NATURE WITH 23'' CALVES, AND WHAT SHOWED UP WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS NOT FIT TO DO MUCH OF ANYTHING DUE TO EXTREMELY POOR HEALTH MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY AND WEIGHED ABOUT 225LBS.


It's ok. He doesn't have the clientele, the stats, or credentials he claimed he did....but for some reason that makes ME THE BAD GUY!?!?!

----------


## BIG_T_MC06

Ok so now itscome down to flaming a dead guy.

Back to the matter in hand about the short heavy cycles and their place in BBing.

*AR do you believe that the human body grows in spurts or phases (like a child has growth spurts) and not continually?*

----------


## marcus300

> I want this post on this page as well...I think it bears repeating, so everyone can see that PB did NOT have ANY degree in ANYTHING he claimed, and that he was investigated, and found to have NO CREDENTIALS that he said he did!
> 
> Here are Jason Meuller's words (slightly edited for length) on PB's claims that he worked with several other very well-known bodybuilders (all of whom DENIED doing anything PB told them to do). In fact, PB's "credentials" (degrees, people he worked with, pharmacology articles, published medical papers)...have all failed to have been verified by an independant third party! In short...MOST of what PB claimed...seems to have been disputed...he didn't have all of the degrees, scientific background, etc...that anybody who interviewed him was able to confirm!
> 
> 
> 
> PB did NOT have all of those degrees, clients, etc...he was a ****ing FRAUD!
> 
> Believe who you want, but PB was a F-ing Fraud. He didn't have any of the credentials he claimed to have, nobody followed his advice, and he had nearly no idea what he was talking about.
> ...


I am sorry if i offended you by saying i think your jealous of Paul B but thats my opinion, my reasoning behind this is that you constant trying to discredit the whole concept of short cycling and then when we have debated short cycling and we cant argue anymore you start on something else like Paul B to try and discredit the theory, truth is you cant discredit this because so many people say it works great,

Also why i find myself not believing a word you say is because you contradict yourself so many times and one of the most reasons why i think you don't know what your talking about on this subject is you said you didn't understand it, i will quote -

1, "I'm not 100% familiar with the prime/burst as Marcus is using the terms."

if your not 100% familiar with prime and burst cycle how can you comment so much and think your right when truth is by your own words your not 100% familiar with the whole idea?
as soon as you said that i knew what i was dealing with, no disrespect intended,

2, i quote again  "I am not criticizing the man himself, but rather an idea (Short Heavy Cycles) which has no scientific foundation" post 294

You have constantly said that they are no good and the worse thing anyone could do but when i said the results speak for themselves and you cant knock many BB's results stating good results you come back with yet another wonderful statement and i quote -

"And I admit that short/heavy cycles work. I think they don't work as well as other (much safer) alternatives". 
post 299 one hand you state one thing and when proven wrong you contradict yourself by saying they work but now not as good as other methods!!


Your remarks about Paul B are ridicules, do you really think he could pass himself off without having said qualifications? could he hell as not, in the UK there was a programme on the BBC about Paul and his work with Aids victims and the use of AAS he had one patient who had his life extended by 5 yrs with Paul's work,do you really think he could have conned his way in? come on your an intelligent man? well i do have my doubt about that now tho!!

all the magazines he wrote for all his own publications and videos all the people he was advising, of course it was true, you just don't know the full story,, i will admit he was very outspoken and told it as it was and thats why he couldn't be seen having anything to do with DY because DY was going for the Weider contract and was trying to portray a certain image, Paul had no presences in that image DY was told to make statement that he never had anything to do with him ever, DY and PB were in contact nearly every day by phone, and the claims that DY never met are insane,

Paul set up a leading supplement company with Kerry Kayes and Brian Batcheldor in the UK, Paul was the brians behind it and produce the next generation proteins, in the side lines DY was there and it was decided that DY would endorse the product when he retired from the Mr O, Kery had known DY for the last 15yrs and Kerry and Paul was apart of DY's camp during his Mr O battles, everyone close to anyone in that camp knows the truth and in them days i was being advised by PB and DY camps on various issues, i know personally the truth, i only live a few miles away from the headquarters of the name company what PB,KK and DY owned,

what happened next was PB had some serious issues going on he broke his back and couldn't train or run the business, remember this guy was a monster and live bodybuilding so you can understand the frustration regarding not being able to train, infact he passed another qualification while in hospital while he was in traction, it was so funny because he couldn't train his body so he said he was training his brain, anyway while all this was going on DY was ready to front the company with KK so PB was bought out, if you knew DY and KK you would understand that when they say your being bought out thats what happens, Now PB was disgusted with the behavior of K and DY with how they went about it and he made this very open with the public so the company had its name changed and then went on to say it had nothing to do with PB or ever had, that is why alot of article stated this, KK and DY are not to be messed with and so PB was pushed out,

PB washed his hands of it and stop being so open with the truth and then went on to start another supplement company Bioharzard UK and USA with Ian Harrison and Trevor Smith
which later another supp co was started called Nuclear Nutrition, in the mean time Paul had some serious issues he couldn't train and weight was dropping of him, his back was in a horrible state, he was taking pain killers by the bucket load to try and numb the pain so he could train, this was his down fall, he couldn't stand being a normal man, he did have some madness in him but they say there is a fine line between genius and madness, anyway truth is he died and many people said he was mad and was doing all sorts towards the end of his life and if any of the company's had to survive they had to break away from this image he had with this very out spoken guru, drugs and supplements dont go hand in hand in the world today,
I have pics somewhere of Ian and PB in one of their videos, i will dig it out for you to see,

Statement from Biohazard USA - 
"Paul Borresen died due to an overdose of pain killers which were being used to control the back pain Paul had nearly all of the time. Paul had been complaining more than usual after his time spent sleeping on an airport floor and then a long cramped flight home a week before his death."



Many people tried to discredit him because of the connections they had with PB because it doesn't look good to have anything to do with such a outspoken guru, the man was years ahead of his time and when he was in his prime he was untouchable,

Also which is going to be really tricky to mention but i feel you need to know, PB had the biggest UGL in UK which is another reason why they had to separate themselves from him, he also got busted by Narcotics squad, PB tried to take on board what everyone was saying and stop being so open about his work but they couldn't silence him, now can you see why the Pro's he was advising had to distance themselves away from him? can you see why supplements co had to distances themselves?

*I would call him a proper steroid guru, some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen has both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?*Here are some mags he wrote for and his own books-
Anabolic Edge,-1,The Anabolic Edge 2001
Written by the legend PB, this masterpiece, if you had to pick one, would be the best because it details the combination of drugs, supplements and foods and how they interact anabolically with each other more thoroughly than any steroid book. 

The Stack,- How To Stack Steroids 
The Stack Master strikes again. But this time Paul devotes an entire book The Stack to this most fascinating subject. Now youll easily be certified by the post office as a new zip code once you try any one of the dozens of stacks Paul has used to manufacture the biggest bodybuilders in the world. Must be 21 to read! The most controversial steroid book on the market.

The Big Secret,
The governor (mag)
Testosterone magazine,
Pump Magazine

Here are some of his achievement's-
Masters degree in pharmacology || Batchelors degree in biochemistry || Over 200 published articles || Author of the Anabolic Edge & The Big Secret || Author of the soon to be released An end to all secrets || Founder of Chemical Warefare (No longer associated) || Founder of BIOHAZARD Creator of THE GOVERNOR || British Northeast Heavyweight Champion || Coached Hundreds of champions including the great but now bitter Dorian Yates. Currently coaching 5 Pro`s including Ian Harrison, along with 150 local and top level amateurs. Self proclaimed owner of "the biggest calves on the planet!!"

Anthony he didn't copy other peoples work and publish it and pass it off as his own work like many proclaim guru of todays world, he looked like a bodybuilder and ran his life like one, i have nothing to gain for my claims, i have nothing to sell or need new client and i don't have any magic pills for sale,i have no motive not like some on here.

if you don't believe it thats fine, but Ive done with your constantly trying discredit anything i say, all i can say is, results speak for themselves and in your own words you really are not "100% familiar" with whole process surrounding short cycling so i cant take anything you say with any credibility,

I have 18yrs worth of experience in this game and it took me yrs to find out what works for me, i made good solid gains from 3-4 months cycle but shortly afterwords i couldn't really keep gaining, things slowed down alot, i only built muscle in the first half of cycle, Paul B and DY team told me to try this way, i did and i started to build again, now over the years i swapped and changed with cycles but i always go back to this whole process priming,short cycling, diet and intense training, it works and it will work for many others, its worth trying, 

*results speak for themselves,* you childish comments are making you look very unprofessional in my eyes trying to constant slag this way of cycling, one day you say it works next it doesn't,

I hope Ive opened your eyes alittle and you can take all this in because it is the truth, one last thing you may carry on trying to discredit everything anybody says but results speak for themselves and let people try it and see for themselves thats what i did with warrior and just look how much he changed,

_We don't know everything about everything and sometimes we need to stop listen and learn, thinking your view is the only one with any credibility speaks volumes to me, we can all learn form everybody, when we use chemicals within the body we all react differently there is nothing set in stone_,

----------


## Maldorf

I just finished a 5 week heavy cycle and thought I would post my results. In the first 3 weeks I put on 20 pounds, and then during the last 2 weeks I put on another 2 pounds taking my weight from 228 up to 250 pounds at 6 foot tall. I think the gain during the last 2 weeks was lower because I was going off of dbol and losing water. I could see the results in the mirror. I went in for a physical last thursday, after being off for just 4 days. Everything at the physical went fine, he even ran an ekg. My blood test came back, after only being off for 5 days, as about I expected it would. My liver enzymes were elevated for the ast and alt. These numbers were about the same or a little lower than after running longer cycles in the past. 5 days isnt long to recover, I just wanted to see where they were at. I was happily surprised to find that everything else on the blood test came back within normal ranges. Usually my blood pressure is elevated but it was not! My rbc count and colesterol were normal and in the past they were both elevated. Ill have another test run in about 3 weeks before I embark on another cycle.
So far my recovery, as far as energy and strength, seems about the same as after a long cycle. Although I might mention that sides I was having subsided much faster this time around. I have shed 6 pounds doing my priming diet and lost a 1/2 inch off of my waist. Strength is actually going up just a bit, so all of my weight loss appears to be fat and water weight. I am taking HCG right now. I have just finished week 1 of PCT.

----------


## marcus300

> I just finished a 5 week heavy cycle and thought I would post my results. In the first 3 weeks I put on 20 pounds, and then during the last 2 weeks I put on another 2 pounds taking my weight from 228 up to 250 pounds at 6 foot tall. I think the gain during the last 2 weeks was lower because I was going off of dbol and losing water. I could see the results in the mirror. I went in for a physical last thursday, after being off for just 4 days. Everything at the physical went fine, he even ran an ekg. My blood test came back, after only being off for 5 days, as about I expected it would. My liver enzymes were elevated for the ast and alt. These numbers were about the same or a little lower than after running longer cycles in the past. 5 days isnt long to recover, I just wanted to see where they were at. I was happily surprised to find that everything else on the blood test came back within normal ranges. Usually my blood pressure is elevated but it was not! My rbc count and colesterol were normal and in the past they were both elevated. Ill have another test run in about 3 weeks before I embark on another cycle.
> So far my recovery, as far as energy and strength, seems about the same as after a long cycle. Although I might mention that sides I was having subsided much faster this time around. I have shed 6 pounds doing my priming diet and lost a 1/2 inch off of my waist. Strength is actually going up just a bit, so all of my weight loss appears to be fat and water weight. I am taking HCG right now. I have just finished week 1 of PCT.


Only 5 days after cycle and your bloodwork is better than when you have run longer cycles, excellent results and thanks for posting them they speak for themselves.

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> *I would call him a proper steroid guru, some people have practical knowledge. Some people have the schooling. Paul Borresen has both, not to mention a 285-pound physique that doesn't stray far from around 8% body fat! How many of today's "gurus" do you know that can make the same claim?
> 
> *


Point of note: 

PB was a very out of shape 245lbs (according to one IFBB professional), and his contest weight was 200lbs. His theories didn't really work that well for him.




> you childish comments are making you look very unprofessional in my eyes trying to constant slag this way of cycling, one day you say it works next it doesn't,


Can you point out (post the actual comments from me) where I said this method doesn't work (at all)? My comments are simply that it is inferior to other ways of cycling.

Taking steroids works, no matter how you take them. Taking them in this manner will work....just less well than almost any other way of doing so.

PB was living proof of this. He was mega-dosing and only managed to be a fat 245 according to the IFBB professional who commented on his actual stats.

----------


## marcus300

> I just finished a 5 week heavy cycle and thought I would post my results. In the first 3 weeks I put on 20 pounds, and then during the last 2 weeks I put on another 2 pounds taking my weight from 228 up to 250 pounds at 6 foot tall. I think the gain during the last 2 weeks was lower because I was going off of dbol and losing water. I could see the results in the mirror. I went in for a physical last thursday, after being off for just 4 days. Everything at the physical went fine, he even ran an ekg. My blood test came back, after only being off for 5 days, as about I expected it would. My liver enzymes were elevated for the ast and alt. These numbers were about the same or a little lower than after running longer cycles in the past. 5 days isnt long to recover, I just wanted to see where they were at. I was happily surprised to find that everything else on the blood test came back within normal ranges. Usually my blood pressure is elevated but it was not! My rbc count and colesterol were normal and in the past they were both elevated. Ill have another test run in about 3 weeks before I embark on another cycle.
> So far my recovery, as far as energy and strength, seems about the same as after a long cycle. Although I might mention that sides I was having subsided much faster this time around. I have shed 6 pounds doing my priming diet and lost a 1/2 inch off of my waist. Strength is actually going up just a bit, so all of my weight loss appears to be fat and water weight. I am taking HCG right now. I have just finished week 1 of PCT.


Can you PM me your full cycle and your priming process pls?

----------


## marcus300

> I just finished a 5 week heavy cycle and thought I would post my results. In the first 3 weeks I put on 20 pounds, and then during the last 2 weeks I put on another 2 pounds taking my weight from 228 up to 250 pounds at 6 foot tall. I think the gain during the last 2 weeks was lower because I was going off of dbol and losing water. I could see the results in the mirror. I went in for a physical last thursday, after being off for just 4 days. Everything at the physical went fine, he even ran an ekg. My blood test came back, after only being off for 5 days, as about I expected it would. My liver enzymes were elevated for the ast and alt. These numbers were about the same or a little lower than after running longer cycles in the past. 5 days isnt long to recover, I just wanted to see where they were at. I was happily surprised to find that everything else on the blood test came back within normal ranges. Usually my blood pressure is elevated but it was not! My rbc count and colesterol were normal and in the past they were both elevated. Ill have another test run in about 3 weeks before I embark on another cycle.
> So far my recovery, as far as energy and strength, seems about the same as after a long cycle. Although I might mention that sides I was having subsided much faster this time around. I have shed 6 pounds doing my priming diet and lost a 1/2 inch off of my waist. Strength is actually going up just a bit, so all of my weight loss appears to be fat and water weight. I am taking HCG right now. I have just finished week 1 of PCT.


Thanks for the PM, i was impressed with the results, excellent work

----------


## tek.

paul-b was a joke but this theory works

----------


## Maldorf

> paul-b was a joke but this theory works


Impression I am getting about Paul is that he wasnt a "joke" until after he had that terrible back injury and ended up using those recreational drugs. SOunds like he was a monster physically before the incident, and it was only after that things went downhill.

----------


## rodge

> Impression I am getting about Paul is that he wasnt a "joke" until after he had that terrible back injury and ended up using those recreational drugs. SOunds like he was a monster physically before the incident, and it was only after that things went downhill.


wich is a common reaction wich most of us prob would get if the one thing in life were totaly dedicated to is impossible to perform. and if you are extreme in one thing and that thing falls away then mostlikely you end up falling into other extreme behaviour.

-rodge

----------


## marcus300

> Impression I am getting about Paul is that he wasnt a "joke" until after he had that terrible back injury and ended up using those recreational drugs. SOunds like he was a monster physically before the incident, and it was only after that things went downhill.


Yes your correct, after the back injury his life went down hill, the man was years ahead of the game and which other Of todays "so called" guro's will be talked about years after their death? if you buy any of his videos or books you will see what he looked like he wasnt scared of showing it off in his videos, again not like todays guro who look like long distance runners

I cant see why we keep going on about someone who cant defend himself, lets get back to the matter in hand, short cycling works, Maldorf's results yet again speak for themselves.

Thanks for the input

----------


## Maldorf

> wich is a common reaction wich most of us prob would get if the one thing in life were totaly dedicated to is impossible to perform. and if you are extreme in one thing and that thing falls away then mostlikely you end up falling into other extreme behaviour.
> 
> -rodge


Exactly. Im sure bodybuilding was one of the, if not biggest, parts of his life. I sometimes try to imagine what I would do under similar circumstances and it always leads to depressing thoughts. I pray that never happens to me. I know its bad enough for me to take off a few weeks when I get a minor injury or illness. I have respect for Paul.

----------


## marcus300

> wich is a common reaction wich most of us prob would get if the one thing in life were totaly dedicated to is impossible to perform. and if you are extreme in one thing and that thing falls away then mostlikely you end up falling into other extreme behaviour.
> 
> -rodge


Exactly Rodge, he told me life wasnt worth living if he couldnt train, havent seen you around for a bit?

----------


## Archetypes

Going back to the original start of this post... I had been told about short/heavy cycles over a year ago but never followed up and did the research. This thread was very informative; my question is I have already obtained a bulking cycle consisting of 20ml of Deca 300 and 30ml of Test-E 200; is the short cycle completely out of the question with this or should I just ride it out as planned(10 weeks)?

----------


## marcus300

> Going back to the original start of this post... I had been told about short/heavy cycles over a year ago but never followed up and did the research. This thread was very informative; my question is I have already obtained a bulking cycle consisting of 20ml of Deca 300 and 30ml of Test-E 200; is the short cycle completely out of the question with this or should I just ride it out as planned(10 weeks)?


First i wouldnt adivce using deca with a short cycle so id do your planned 10wk cycle, deca is hard to recover from and thats something what you dont need within a short cycle

----------


## Archetypes

Thanks for the advice...I will plan accordingly for the next round.

----------


## gorgorothsatanis

> I use to know him, he adviced me a few years back on certain things,
> its not just PB who as talked about this theory Dan Duchaine, Jeff Summers, have also used it and studied it with great success,
> 
> PB has a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function, his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders, he also transform the world aids victims and how we can substain life longer with steriod applications,top pro's ask PB for advice on stacks and cycles just to name one was DY who was under PB arm durring his Olympia battles,
> 
> i also know that Dorian said in interviews that he had nothing to do with PB or his theorys, but Dorian was pushed to say these things because of his sponsers, he still was in contact with him for years tho.
> he also didnt die due to his steriod use, he broke his back in an accident which made him use pain killers so he could train again, he overdosed on the pain killers.
> 
> I think you can buy his books and videos online, just to name two of them-
> ...


I am also an admirer of PB's work. I fully concur with Marcus: PB's recommendations are for ADVANCED gear users only. You haven't seen extreme until you read his recs. THE STACK book was my favorite because he laid out in detail his Ultimate stack. In addition to those books, he also had a magazine of his own for a little while (I only have one issue) called THE GOVERNOR and a website. After his death, one of his mates took it over and I am not sure if he still posts PB's old writings. Oh yeah he also wrote for PUMP magazine years back in case someone wants to go through their old issues.

----------


## Andros

> First i wouldnt adivce using deca with a short cycle so id do your planned 10wk cycle, deca is hard to recover from and thats something what you dont need within a short cycle



So is it fair to say that you don't choose "hard recovery" compounds for short cycles? 

Which AAS do you categorise as good for a short cycle?

----------


## Warrior

> So is it fair to say that you don't choose "hard recovery" compounds for short cycles? 
> 
> Which AAS do you categorise as good for a short cycle?


Simply avoid the progestenic stuff; they have a greater raise in total hormone levels, so they can shut you down harder... stuff like trenbolone and nandrolone . I would say stick to testosterone for a first run... asses the effectiveness and then play with it from there...

----------


## marcus300

> Simply avoid the progestenic stuff; they have a greater raise in total hormone levels, so they can shut you down harder... stuff like trenbolone and nandrolone. I would say stick to testosterone for a first run... asses the effectiveness and then play with it from there...


Agreed

----------


## AleX-69

> hello,,
> i read your profile it was so good to me.i feel you are the only one missing in my entered life so i desided to stop on it and let you know that i am interested to be a friend first.i also believe that coming to you will be a probabilty of meeting that very thing thing that has been lacking in my entered life. please contact me at ([email protected] ) i am a girl with respect and responsible,i respect people also and believe if you contact me,i will giove you a full introduction of my self okay. i hope to hear from you soon. cares for my future love Gift,,


 :LOL: 

 :Chairshot:

----------


## MASSA

Marcus, i cant send you any PM !

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> Yes he wrote many articles, here is alittle article which was posted on Bihazzard ...
> 
> To go back to a thread which was covered a while ago on how much protein
> can be digested in one sitting. This quote is taken from
> www.biohazardusa.com as part of a pulled article from *Paul Borreson for
> Testosterone magazine.* 
> 
> 
> .


Here's another quote about Paul Borreson, also from Testosterone Magazine:

"Paul lost a great deal of credibility with T- mag readers a couple years ago after it turned out the academic credentials he touted in an interview with us were false, and his star client, Dorian Yates, claimed to have never associated with him. "

Enjoy.

----------


## marcus300

> Here's another quote about Paul Borreson, also from Testosterone Magazine:
> 
> "Paul lost a great deal of credibility with T- mag readers a couple years ago after it turned out the academic credentials he touted in an interview with us were false, and his star client, Dorian Yates, claimed to have never associated with him. "
> 
> Enjoy.


If you knew PB you would know why DY had to claim he didnt talk with him has a client because of his outspoken views on AAS, DY was trying to conquer the Mr O and he was told to distances himself from Paul otherwise he wouldnt get a contract.

His work was his own and didnt copy's anybody elses and claim it was his, he was a true guru and he looked like one!!

Its so funny how you try to discredit a dead man, i feel alittle jealousy coming through with your post's.

I could quote rumours regarding your status but I guess everyone as read all about it on various boards thats why your products seem to get a bashing everywhere you try and push them.

----------


## Booz

lets keep this from a slanging match over a dead person please,this thread is about short cycles not about the cred of anyone......................

----------


## Booz

keep this to the subject at hand....................

----------


## marcus300

> lets keep this from a slanging match over a dead person please,this thread is about short cycles not about the cred of anyone......................


Thanks booz :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Property of Steroid.com

> lets keep this from a slanging match over a dead person please,this thread is about short cycles not about the cred of anyone......................


I think that if a person's credentials are listed as a reason to listen to them, then it should be fair game to talk about them.

----------


## Maldorf

All I know is that this is the third short heavy cycle that i have run and they all have worked great for me. I dont think I will be switching back to the more traditional cycles anytime soon.

----------


## jdsogge

Im def going to use this route from now on.

thanx bros

----------


## marcus300

> All I know is that this is the third short heavy cycle that i have run and they all have worked great for me. I dont think I will be switching back to the more traditional cycles anytime soon.


Excellent news Maldorf, not seen you around for abit.

----------


## marcus300

> All I know is that this is the third short heavy cycle that i have run and they all have worked great for me. I dont think I will be switching back to the more traditional cycles anytime soon.


Excellent news Maldorf, not seen you around for abit.

----------


## Baba

I remember about a month ago I started a thread about Author L. Rea building the perfect beast. His concept is somewhat similar to this one, 30 day cycles. Get in grow hard and get out b/4 HPTA supresses. I believe everyone who responded to the thread flammed the shit out it and made fun of the whole idea of only doing a cycle for 30 days. I'm glad to see a similar thread come up and people actually taking time out to think about it instead of just automatically dismissing the idea.

----------


## llrockyll

marcus300 im looking to lose about 50lbs for the summer i wanna get ripped around 5%bf. should i just run a long cycle and get ripped, then run these short heavy cycles? i have a few cycles under my belt so ide like to give 1 a try. also u said u should be priming for 6-8 weeks so does that mean after u do a short heavy cycle u should wait 6-8 weeks for priming again to do another short heavy cycle and is it ok to start priming during pct? sry if this is confusing just trying to soak it all in.

----------


## marcus300

> marcus300 im looking to lose about 50lbs for the summer i wanna get ripped around 5%bf. should i just run a long cycle and get ripped, then run these short heavy cycles? i have a few cycles under my belt so ide like to give 1 a try. also u said u should be priming for 6-8 weeks so does that mean after u do a short heavy cycle u should wait 6-8 weeks for priming again to do another short heavy cycle and is it ok to start priming during pct? sry if this is confusing just trying to soak it all in.


If you want to lose 50lbs for summer I would start dieting and intense cardio program and lose as much bf as possible naturally before taking any kind of compounds, look at compounds when you have the stubborn bf to shift.

After you have achieved your body fat level yes you could do short cycles, priming should be done 8 wks before any type of short cycling this will open the growth window for muscle tissue to grow very fast.

Dont start priming while in pct, do it when you have fully recovered.

----------


## vitor

IIOCKYll-Personally, If possible I would rather use GH rather than AAS for losing BF most of the time. It will keep you anti-catabolic and help with fat-burning to...

Short-burst AAS cycles are perfect right after cutting b/c of the rebound effect, So look at the big picture and take advantage of that...

----------


## goose

Its strange that I went to a Yates camp with few mates,in a discrete manner I had a brief talk to him on PB,he confirmed that his most main ideology revolutionized BB at the time,early 90`s.You have to remeber back then they did not have the tools like we do today.Its so easy to find a study on the net.He had none of this and look what he achieved.He said he was a crazy guys on drugs,involved with gangsters,and even this story of him being thrown out the window.So him lying on things is not surprising,does not mean he his ideas are worthless,NO.Guy is a legend.

----------


## goose

> Its strange that I went to a Yates camp with few mates,in a discrete manner I had a brief talk to him on PB,he confirmed that his most main ideology revolutionized at the time,early 90`s.You have to remeber back then they did not have the tools like we do today.Its so easy to find a study on the net.He had none of this and look what he achieved.He said he was a crazy guys on drugs,involved with gangsters,and even this story of him being thrown out the window.So him lying on things is not surprising,does not mean he his ideas are worthless,NO.Guy is a legend.


This is a picture I took of my mate with the legend.God what a gym,my hero.

----------


## marcus300

> This is a picture I took of my mate with the legend.God what a gym,my hero.


You mate looks a big guy goose, thanks for posting :Wink/Grin:

----------


## vitor

> This is a picture I took of my mate with the legend.God what a gym,my hero.


Do you train at temple gym?
Thats where "Blood and Guts"( the video) was shooted right?

----------


## goose

> Do you train at temple gym?
> Thats where "Blood and Guts"( the video) was shooted right?


 
Temple gym is near marcus :Frown:  

Its a long way from me,I live near London :Frown: 

Thats right from the gym from blood and guts.

----------


## marcus300

> Temple gym is near marcus 
> 
> Its a long way from me,*I live near London*
> 
> Thats right from the gym from blood and guts.


You live in London??

erhhhhhh goose get up north

----------


## llrockyll

> If you want to lose 50lbs for summer I would start dieting and intense cardio program and lose as much bf as possible naturally before taking any kind of compounds, look at compounds when you have the stubborn bf to shift.
> 
> After you have achieved your body fat level yes you could do short cycles, priming should be done 8 wks before any type of short cycling this will open the growth window for muscle tissue to grow very fast.
> 
> Dont start priming while in pct, do it when you have fully recovered.


kool bro i definitely hear what ur saying but i just dont wanna lose any muslce, so that was the reason for the cycle.

[/QUOTE=vitor]-IIOCKYll-Personally, If possible I would rather use GH rather than AAS for losing BF most of the time. It will keep you anti-catabolic and help with fat-burning to...

Short-burst AAS cycles are perfect right after cutting b/c of the rebound effect, So look at the big picture and take advantage of that...[/QUOTE]

i didnt realize hgh kept u anti catabolic i have never run it before. at what iu ed should i run hgh if i were to take generic blue tops?

----------


## Maldorf

> kool bro i definitely hear what ur saying but i just dont wanna lose any muslce, so that was the reason for the cycle.
> 
> [/QUOTE=vitor]-IIOCKYll-Personally, If possible I would rather use GH rather than AAS for losing BF most of the time. It will keep you anti-catabolic and help with fat-burning to...
> 
> Short-burst AAS cycles are perfect right after cutting b/c of the rebound effect, So look at the big picture and take advantage of that...


i didnt realize hgh kept u anti catabolic i have never run it before. at what iu ed should i run hgh if i were to take generic blue tops?[/QUOTE]

I started out at just 2 IU/day myself. Work your way up slowly, and 6IU/day is pretty good once your body is accustomed to it. If you take too much too soon youll get some bad sides and have to cut back on the dose. I went up too fast when I first started and got bad carpal tunnel and achy joints.

----------


## Maldorf

> Excellent news Maldorf, not seen you around for abit.


Been hitting another board mostly, but do look on here still. Im glad that I came across this post months ago, ive made some decent progress I think. This is despite the triple hernia surgery I had to have. Just about rebuilt everything I lost with my first short cycle I ran after my surgery.

----------


## notauser

marcus300:

you said in your first post this isn't for newbies.. so i just wanted to confirm that first time users should stick with the standard test E 12-week cycle right?

----------


## marcus300

> marcus300:
> 
> you said in your first post this isn't for newbies.. so i just wanted to confirm that first time users should stick with the standard test E 12-week cycle right?


Yes short burst cycles are not for newbies stick with the standard type of cycling and see how you react to the test. But short cycling can be used by newbies just mild dose's not heavy burst dose.

----------


## notauser

> Yes short burst cycles are not for newbies stick with the standard type of cycling and see how you react to the test. But short cycling can be used by newbies just mild dose's not heavy burst dose.


thanks man. well, i rather stick to the standard recommendations (12 week cycles) then move on to your kind of cycling after i have some cycles under my belt..

----------


## marcus300

> thanks man. well, i rather stick to the standard recommendations (12 week cycles) then move on to your kind of cycling after i have some cycles under my belt..


Very wise :Wink/Grin:

----------


## goose

One of pauls *cleints was* *Ian Harrison,people if marcus will let me I will try and burn it and put a link here of them together.Its so crazy and funny,paul is a cross between* *lunatic and Genius,a little like marcus,LOL.LOL)*

----------


## marcus300

> One of pauls *cleints was* *Ian Harrison,people if marcus will let me I will try and burn it and put a link here of them together.Its so crazy and funny,paul is a cross between* *lunatic and Genius,a little like marcus,LOL.LOL)*


Have you seen their video they both did? training/AAS/Diets totally mad.

lunatic??? I am offended :No No:

----------


## goose

> Have you seen their video they both did? training/AAS/Diets totally mad.
> 
> lunatic??? I am offended


 
You know I love you :Icon Rolleyes:  

Thats the one Im talking about,lets post it and blow the minds of the people here.

----------


## marcus300

> You know I love you 
> 
> Thats the one Im talking about,lets post it and blow the minds of the people here.


You know they are not ready for him

----------


## goose

> You know they are not ready for him


God if he was alive,what would he do to roberts :What?:  

Your right not ready,not here.

----------


## crazycrab

Marcus is a Great member. Many thanks

----------


## marcus300

> God if he was alive,what would he do to roberts 
> 
> Your right not ready,not here.


If he was alive he wouldnt know who he was :Wink/Grin:

----------


## marcus300

> Marcus is a Great member. Many thanks


Thankyou :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Maldorf

I have done about 3 burst cycles, and the first two worked great. The last one was rather lack luster and I think its because I wasnt taking off enough time in between the bursts. My body seemed to respond a little less with each burst so that by the 3rd one I didnt get a whole lot out of it. This is probably a matter of you figuring out how much time you will need, but for me 4 weeks wasnt long enough.

----------


## john vega

awesome thread marcus.

----------


## goose

I miss marcus....great guy.

----------


## rock75

Yeah Goose, what happened to Marcus? I've been on and off for some time and missed some chit

----------


## Maldorf

Yeah, Im sad to see he was banned. I always thought he was a good asset here. Seems like lots of the more knowledable people have been leaving or banned.

----------


## lightwaytbaby

it happens, great read none the less.

----------


## MANchild

very informative thanks...

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## RA

> Yeah, Im sad to see he was banned. I always thought he was a good asset here. Seems like lots of the more knowledable people have been leaving or banned.


 
Very knowledgeable. His input is missed on the board.

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## Sage

good info thread, need to come here more often

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## GPS226

marcus, I am very interested in this theory and may try it next year. Do u think u could PM me with an example cycle with dosages? or post it in the thread?

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## eljugo16

great read

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## number twelve

so would style this be recommended for a first cycle?

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## eljugo16

standard 12 weeks cycles are the best for first timers

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## Warrior

> so would style this be recommended for a first cycle?


No, but the idea around priming your body before hand can be practiced. Beginners should start off with modest doses (testosterone -only is best) and duration.

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## Warrior

> standard 12 weeks cycles are the best for first timers


I wouldn't call 12 weeks "standard" - that can easily be too long, and very suppressive depending on the drugs/doses used. Side effects can build up enough to throw off the benefit-to-risk ratio over long durations too. Prime for the cycle, then hit the gas and ride it hard - increased training intensity and calorie intake - then, when the gains subside, get off and recover the hypothalamus. IMO, a beginner really shouldn't ride it out more than 10 weeks. If you make big gains and then they suddenly sputter or stall at 8 weeks, or signs of overreaching become evident, get off then. Twelve weeks is a long time to stay on for a beginner...

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## eljugo16

Yea it all depends on the person. My first cycle was 500mgs of Test E for 12 weeks and it worked great for me. On the other hand my friend who also started with me stopped at 7 weeks because his sides really acted up. So yea it DEF depends on the person.

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## bigracso

where is ended marcus300?

I've read all the 10 pages of thread (I've invested 2 complete days) and I would plane a short burst cycle... 

My last cycle have been 8 weeks of test prop 700mg per week

I would to do:

1-17 days test enant EOD 250mg
30-44 days clomid+nolvadex +hcg 
45-75 day test prop ED but with how mg?

thanks

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## marcus300

> where is ended marcus300?
> 
> I've read all the 10 pages of thread (I've invested 2 complete days) and I would plane a short burst cycle... 
> 
> My last cycle have been 8 weeks of test prop 700mg per week
> 
> I would to do:
> 
> 1-17 days test enant EOD 250mg
> ...


Ive no idea what you trying to say, explain in english please

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## bigracso

excuse me for the wrong english

I would to do a short cycle so planned:

I would inject me 250mg of test enant EOD for 17 days, that is 9 testoviron , after at the 30th day I would get clomid+nolva+hcg (bridge+PCT) for 15 days, after at the 45th day I repeat the cycle but with test prop ED ... I would to know How mg of test prop I would get?

obviously after this second cycle I'll do the complete PCT for 4 weeks.

You regard that my prec cycle I got 700mg of test prop for week.

Thanks

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## marcus300

I cant discuss burst dosages on the open forum because this board is driven by newbies and i dont want to advice burst dosages, dosages for burst cycles are designed of that persons cycle history, many people are different to what dose they will use, what is high to me may be low to you so its a well planned out cycle which is designed of your cycle history.

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## bigracso

> I cant discuss burst dosages on the open forum because this board is driven by newbies and i dont want to advice burst dosages, dosages for burst cycles are designed of that persons cycle history, many people are different to what dose they will use, what is high to me may be low to you so its a well planned out cycle which is designed of your cycle history.


this is consistent with all your thread and I support you, but I believe that clarify all my cycle it could become a personal and not repeatable cycle.

So, excluding the doses, Do the rest of cycle is right?

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## marcus300

> this is consistent with all your thread and I support you, but I believe that clarify all my cycle it could become a personal and not repeatable cycle.
> 
> So, excluding the doses, Do the rest of cycle is right?


Short burst cycling is ran for around 4-6 weeks depending on what is trying to be achieved, you would use fast acting compounds so they are clear at the end to start pct, or you can run long esters but they need to swap them over to fast acting 14 days before the end of the cycle, you can bridge to the next cycle with various means or you can run a pct, again depending on goals.

Also you need to prime the body before any knd of short burst cycling for at least 6-8 wks.

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## bigracso

> Short burst cycling is ran for around 4-6 weeks depending on what is trying to be achieved, you would use fast acting compounds so they are clear at the end to start pct, or you can run long esters but they need to swap them over to fast acting 14 days before the end of the cycle, you can bridge to the next cycle with various means or you can run a pct, again depending on goals.
> 
> Also you need to prime the body before any knd of short burst cycling for at least 6-8 wks.


ok, I keep you informed, I'll start my cycle the next week

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## Supplement

Cheers people, 

I realise that this is an old thread, but I'm still curious. 

I'm moving to spain in a month(from norway), the original plan was to do a 35 week cycle. 600mg EQ ew and 500mg test c ew for 25 weeks, then followed up by a 10 week cutting diet with the 600mg eq and 100mg eod with masteron . A good friend of mine advised this to me.

But after reading this I'm planning to it some other way. 

Option 1:
4 weeks, 50mg Tbol ed and 150mg prop eod. 6-8 weeks off, and then repeat.

Option 2: 
4 weeks, 3g primo ew (if I can afford it). 6-8 weeks off, and then repeat.

Cycles I've done before: 

4 weeks of tbol, 30mg ed

15 weeks with 400mg test, 30mg dbol ed for 5 weeks, and 100mg eod with masteron the last 10 weeks.

10 week with 100mg prop eod

15 weeks with 400mg deca and 200mg testo c ew

12 weeks with 500mg test ew, 50mg dbol ed for 5 weeks,

Current wheight is around 190-200 pounds. I'm 22 now, I useally have 1 year between each cycle. I started to early, and had to little knowledge around training, diet and steroids . I've learned the hard way  :Smilie: 

What you guys think? 

Thanks  :Smilie:

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## 24tyrone

great thread bro,

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## MR10X

> Short burst cycling is ran for around 4-6 weeks depending on what is trying to be achieved, you would use fast acting compounds so they are clear at the end to start pct, or you can run long esters but they need to swap them over to fast acting 14 days before the end of the cycle, you can bridge to the next cycle with various means or you can run a pct, again depending on goals.
> 
> Also you need to prime the body before any knd of short burst cycling for at least 6-8 wks.


How many days a week do you train your body parts on a 4 to 6 week cycle.I find it hard to recover if i do every body part twice a week and find hitting everything 3 times every 2 weeks works better IF i max out every workout.

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## marcus300

> How many days a week do you train your body parts on a 4 to 6 week cycle.I find it hard to recover if i do every body part twice a week and find hitting everything 3 times every 2 weeks works better IF i max out every workout.


Personally I only train my body parts once per week, I incorporate a very intense training protocol when cycling and once per week at this intensity is fine.

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## measuretwicecutonce

look what i just found lol

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## Gorgos

Why is there no activity in this thread? Its a beast!

Im a novice but I wanna go for more short cycles 6 weeks on 8-10 off 6 weeks on etc etc. Gonna start with testo p 100mg eod next week!

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## Buster Brown

> Why is there no activity in this thread? Its a beast!
> 
> Im a novice but I wanna go for more short cycles 6 weeks on 8-10 off 6 weeks on etc etc. Gonna start with testo p 100mg eod next week!


Well for starters its an old thread and those dosages described in that thread are for more advanced users. PB was way ahead of his time and it's a great read but those cycles are not for the average Guy just learning how to cycle safely.

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## Slim2015

> Well for starters its an old thread and those dosages described in that thread are for more advanced users. PB was way ahead of his time and it's a great read but those cycles are not for the average Guy just learning how to cycle safely.



Hello.. i have read some of your comments good read .. i am new here and am trying to post my own post on cycles and what products work well with others and what ones don't. . But for some reason i am unable to do so..yes i have send a p.m. to the admins but no reply yet. I am 45 male 6 f 205lb slim build .. hard to put on mass but very fast matable.. i am currently take t400 stacked with deca 2cc every 3days and 3ui of hgh per day.. what i am wanting to know is what are good add on to take will on a cycle and how long i should cycle for and also what are reliable post and per cycle products.. I have avatar on order but at my age i would just like go to straight hgh.. maybe this could be the start of one ..

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## Buster Brown

> Hello.. i have read some of your comments good read .. i am new here and am trying to post my own post on cycles and what products work well with others and what ones don't. . But for some reason i am unable to do so..yes i have send a p.m. to the admins but no reply yet. I am 45 male 6 f 205lb slim build .. hard to put on mass but very fast matable.. i am currently take t400 stacked with deca 2cc every 3days and 3ui of hgh per day.. what i am wanting to know is what are good add on to take will on a cycle and how long i should cycle for and also what are reliable post and per cycle products.. I have avatar on order but at my age i would just like go to straight hgh.. maybe this could be the start of one ..


Welcome ....why not start a new thread and we can help and lets put this one to rest. Lay out your cycle plan and we can go from there.

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## Slim2015

> Welcome ....why not start a new thread and we can help and lets put this one to rest. Lay out your cycle plan and we can go from there.


Thank you for the welcome.. i have started my own trend on the new members page .. no responses yet..

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## Buster Brown

> Thank you for the welcome.. i have started my own trend on the new members page .. no responses yet..


You need to put your questions in this forum.

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## marcus300

> Hello.. i have read some of your comments good read .. i am new here and am trying to post my own post on cycles and what products work well with others and what ones don't. . But for some reason i am unable to do so..yes i have send a p.m. to the admins but no reply yet. I am 45 male 6 f 205lb slim build .. hard to put on mass but very fast matable.. i am currently take t400 stacked with deca 2cc every 3days and 3ui of hgh per day.. what i am wanting to know is what are good add on to take will on a cycle and how long i should cycle for and also what are reliable post and per cycle products.. I have avatar on order but at my age i would just like go to straight hgh.. maybe this could be the start of one ..


Like Buster stated you need to start a new thread in the q&a section. If your already on cycle and your asking questions regarding length, other compounds to add and pct you should of really done this kind of research pre cycle to make sure your doing everything correctly. Please post the whole cycle, stats, how many cycles have you done and how long you been training

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## fitguy

> Like Buster stated you need to start a new thread in the q&a section. If your already on cycle and your asking questions regarding length, other compounds to add and pct you should of really done this kind of research pre cycle to make sure your doing everything correctly. Please post the whole cycle, stats, how many cycles have you done and how long you been training


Am interested in this kind of cycling wanna run a test deca cycle how can i do this if using long acting deca

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## Buster Brown

Those cycles are for the pretty advanced user. Most guys here aren't at that level and can't give you dosages. Maybe Marcus will chime in or you can PM him. He has that kind of knowledge.

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## fitguy

> Those cycles are for the pretty advanced user. Most guys here aren't at that level and can't give you dosages. Maybe Marcus will chime in or you can PM him. He has that kind of knowledge.


I am interested in that kind of cycling but not the high doses

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## Buster Brown

> I am interested in that kind of cycling but not the high doses


You need the higher doses for the short cycles to be effective.

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