# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  The Case Against Overhead Presses

## terraj

I dropped the over head press around 1.5 years ago, after picking up to many injuries with it, I had constant shoulder issues over the years, after dropping it I have been shoulder injury free and have been enjoying a return to heavy benching. I think it is an exercise that is from a time long ago...

The Case Against Overhead Presses By Doug Brignole

I know it’s difficult to accept the notion that Overhead Presses – an exercise that has been around for decades, and has been considered one of the most fundamental exercises in weight training since its inception – might actually not be so good after all. That concept might seem outrageous to you. You’re probably thinking, “how can that be?… it’s in all the fitness books; we see it done in all the gyms; it’s been done by thousands of successful competitive bodybuilders… it’s ludicrous to think that it’s not a good exercise!” But allow me to explain some basic facts, and then you can decide for yourself.

Problem # 1: Not the Right Movement

Let’s start with the assumption that your intention is to work your shoulder muscles (i.e. the deltoids – specifically the center section, known as the “lateral deltoid”). If you were to look up the function of the lateral deltoid in an anatomy book you would discover that the function of the lateral deltoid is “lateral abduction”. This is a term which means “to move the arm laterally, out to the side, away from the body”. That’s what the lateral deltoid muscle does – exclusively. In other words, when we perform a “straight arm side raise”, with a dumbbell or a cable, we are duplicating the exact function of that muscle – and that is the way it should be. But when we do an overhead press, we are not performing a “lateral abduction”. We are performing a movement that has a vague similarity to lateral abduction, but is different.

Let’s compare that with another muscle – the biceps. If we were to look up the function of the biceps (of the arm), we would find a description which clearly states its function as (primarily) “elbow flexion” (… to a lesser degree, it also moves the upper arm forward, because it also crosses the shoulder the joint – technically speaking). This is the term for “bending the elbow”. And when we do exercises for our biceps, we perform movements that are exactly (and exclusively) like the description of that function – curls – which is “elbow bending”. We might do curls with dumbbells, or with a cable, or with a machine. But in all cases, we perform an elbow flexion. And the reason we do that is because that is what the biceps does. It would be impractical and illogical to do something other than elbow flexion, and still expect maximum stimulation of the biceps.

We could make similar comparisons for every other body part – the quadriceps extend the knee, and when we do leg extensions or squats, we extend the knee (note: squats involve knee extension, plus hip extension). The triceps extend the elbow, and when we do triceps pushdowns, or lying dumbbell triceps extensions, we perform “elbow extensions” – duplicating the function of that muscle. But when we do overhead presses, we are not duplicating the function of the lateral deltoid. We are doing something different, yet somehow have accepted this aberration as a “good deltoid exercise” – even though it does not follow the same rule as every other exercise, for every other muscle in our body. The rule is: “An exercise must perform the function of a given muscle, in order for that muscle to receive maximum benefit”.

Problem # 2: Excessive External Twisting of the Joint

A number of years ago, the American College of Sports Medicine issued a “Position Paper”, describing the “Safe” and “ Unsafe” range of shoulder rotation. In order to understand this concept, hold your arm straight out to the side, parallel to the ground. Now bend your elbow so that it forms a 90 degree bend. Now – keeping your elbow at that exact height, lower your hand so that your forearm begins sloping downward. This downward rotation is called “internal rotation of the humerus”. Now – rotate your arm the other direction, so that your forearm is sloping upwards. This action is called “external rotation of the humerus”. The rotation is actually occurring within the shoulder joint. There is – in fact – a limited amount of internal and external rotation that is safe. This is obvious. You can easily discover this for yourself, simply by rotating your arm downward until you begin to feel discomfort (i.e. pain) in the shoulder, and then rotating it upward until you begin to feel discomfort in the shoulder.

What this little experiment – and The American College of Sports Medicine – establishes, is that the safe range of shoulder rotation is in the middle. Generally – and this differs a little from person to person depending on their degree of shoulder flexibility – the safe range is from the level position, downward about 45 degrees and upward about 70 degrees. Rotating the arm farther up or down is considered “extreme” and unsafe, and officially referred to as “excessive internal rotation” and “excessive external rotation” – of the humerus. So, in order to perform an overhead press, one must enter the unsafe zone of external rotation (90 degrees), and then – at the point where the shoulder is mechanically strained to the upper-most limit – add resistance! It’s almost like trying to do curls behind your back.

Problem # 3: Rotator Cuff Strain

Let’s examine what happens if – and when – a person is unable to rotate their arm to a position where their forearm is perpendicular (straight up), due to limited flexibility in their shoulder, which is fairly common. Hold your right arm in the starting position of an overhead press, but with your forearm at a slight forward slant. Imagine that you are pushing a dumbbell upwards, toward the ceiling. Now consider this: the slight forward slant of your forearm is causing the weight to pull your forearm (actually, your hand, with the weight in it) forward, and in order to keep the weight from falling farther forward, you must perform a sort of “reverse arm-wrestling” movement, while still pushing upward. In other words, you are using your external rotator cuff, to prevent the weight from falling forward. The problem with this is that the weight is too heavy for that type of movement. The external rotator cuff is small, compared to the deltoid. You have selected a weight that is appropriate for your deltoid, but now you are using your (much smaller and weaker) rotator cuff to keep this weight from falling forward. This could easily cause “rotator cuff strain”, and might well result in shoulder pain. It could actually cause your rotator cuff to tear, when done repeatedly, and/or with a heavy weight.

A similar problem occurs when one is performing a “Behind the Neck” barbell press. In order to keep from hitting yourself on the head with the bar, you must keep the bar behind your head. This forces you to angle your forearm slightly backward, which rotates your humerus externally even farther than before. Now you are combining a more severe external twisting of the shoulder, with the fact that the weight wants to fall backward, and you are forced to use your internal rotator cuff to prevent it from going farther back. In essence, you are arm-wrestling the bar, at the same time that you are pressing it upward. This makes no sense. You would never think to strain an unrelated body part while doing curls for your biceps, or leg extensions for your quadriceps. Why is it acceptable to strain your rotator cuff, simply to work your side deltoids – especially considering that the sole function of the side (lateral) deltoid is “lateral abduction” – not joint rotation? Lateral abduction (i.e. working the side deltoid) does not “require” that you simultaneously twist the shoulder joint, and overload the rotator cuff.

Problem # 4: Improper Range of Motion and Impingement

Every muscle has a point of full extension, and a point of full contraction. For example, your biceps are at full extension when your arms are straight, and they’re fully contracted when your elbows are completely bent. The rule is: “For maximum benefit, an exercise must mimic the natural range of motion of the working muscle”. A curl, therefore, goes from arm straight, to arm bent – from the point where the muscle is extended, to the point where the muscle is contracted. The same is true with every other muscle, in every other exercise. Consider the Leg Extension (for the quads), the Dumbbell Row (for the lats), the Calf Raise (for the calves) – all begin at full extension (where the muscle is elongated), and finish at the point where the muscle contracts (i.e. flexes).

The range of motion of the side deltoid begins at the point where the arm is straight alongside your body, and it concludes its range of motion at the point where your upper arm is perpendicular to your body (i.e. straight out to the side). However, as you can easily see, the overhead press does not begin at the point where your upper arm is straight alongside your body, and it ends at a point much farther up than “perpendicular to the body”. In other words, it loses a significant percentage of the early range of motion (an important part of the range of motion), and it goes far past the point of normal contraction, to a point known as joint “impingement”. Impingement occurs when the upper arm bone approaches the side of your head, and rubs against the upper edge of the shoulder blade (also known as the “acromion process”), causing irritation. This typically causes inflammation, which is commonly known as “impingement syndrome”. The overhead press, therefore, has both an incomplete and an unnatural range of motion – too little range at the bottom, and too much range at the top – resulting in joint irritation.

Problem # 5: Improper Alignment of the Muscle

Another rule that exists in biomechanics is that: “a muscle must be positioned opposite resistance, in order for that muscle to benefit from the resistance”. That might sound complicated, but it’s really very simple. To demonstrate it, stand in front of a mirror, and imagine that you are actually lying on your back, on a bench, looking up at a mirror that is on the ceiling. Now, hold a pair of 10 pound dumbbells in the same position you would be in, if you were about to do a “flat dumbbell chest press”. Now – push those dumbbells toward the mirror – still imagining that you are lying flat on a bench, pushing those dumbbells toward the ceiling. Do about 10 repetitions. Now ask yourself, “do I feel fatigue in my pectorals, or do I feel fatigue in my shoulders?” The answer, you will find, is that you feel fatigue in your shoulders, and NOT in your pectorals – even though you are performing a movement that is typical of a “chest press”.

The reason for this is because – in this little experiment – while you are in the standing position, the resistance is not coming from behind you, opposite the pectoral muscles. If you were really lying flat on your back (looking up at the ceiling), gravity (i.e. resistance) would be coming from behind you, and your chest muscles would be positioned on the opposite side of the resistance. As such, your chest muscles would be perfectly aligned opposite resistance, and would therefore receive the benefit of the resistance. But, as you discovered in this little experiment, when the resistance is coming from a direction OTHER than opposite the pectorals, the pecs do not get the benefit of the resistance.

This is what happens – to a large degree – during an overhead press. By rotating the arm externally, to the point where the forearm is perpendicular to the ground, you automatically rotate your lateral deltoid toward the rear, and away from the position that is best suited to oppose the downward resistance (gravity). Instead, you rotate your frontal deltoid up into a position that is more in opposition to gravity. In fact, if you were to look to the side, at your deltoid, while performing an overhead press movement (even without using weight), you will observe (especially if you are lean enough to see the division between your front and side deltoids), that the “position opposite the downward resistance” (i.e. on the top side of the shoulder) is occupied about 70% by the frontal deltoid, and about 30% by the side deltoid. This means that 70% of the resistance is benefiting the frontal deltoid, and only 30% of the resistance is benefiting the side deltoid. And even this comes at the expense of joint strain.

Why We’ve Done Them For So Long

Why would anyone choose an exercise that has less benefit and more risk, over exercises that have more benefit and less risk? There are several reasons, but primarily – tradition. When “weight lifting” (the act of lifting a heavy object, for the purpose of developing physical strength) first originated, there was no knowledge of “biomechanics”, and lifting objects UPWARD was the standard. Since then, it’s been grandfathered in, and accepted as one of the “basic” weight lifting movements. Second reason – illusion and ego. Lifting a heavy weight – even if it’s due in large part to the advantage of leverage and assisting muscles – creates the impression that one is strong, and lays the groundwork for competitiveness.

We’ve also had blind belief in those who came before. We look at someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger, and assume that if he did them, they must be good. Many successful bodybuilding champions have used Overhead Presses, and they look impressive, so we make the mistaken assumption that all of the exercises they’ve done in the gym, have contributed equally to this result. Many football players – college as well as professional – have traditionally used them in developing power for their game, and we mistakenly assume that what’s good for a young, large-boned, power athlete is also good for someone with the goal of fitness or bodybuilding.

But none of these reasons are sound, from a scientific or factual perspective. Chances are that you’ve done them despite feeling shoulder pain, thinking that the pain was not coming from the exercise, but instead was coming from your own unique weakness. You’ve probably ignored obvious signs of strain, simply because you thought “the exercise can’t possibly be bad…it’s been around forever”. And perhaps you even thought that shoulder strain is the price that must be paid in order to gain the muscular shoulder development you want. These are all errors in judgment, based on years of misinformation.

What We Should Do Instead

Since the Lateral Deltoid does only one thing – lateral abduction (i.e. a side raise movement) – the very best exercises for the Lateral Deltoids, are those which perform precisely that movement. Let’s again compare this with working your biceps. During a workout, you might do two or three exercises for your biceps – a preacher curl, a cable curl, a machine curl, etc. – but it’s always a curl…. because that is what your biceps does. However, by changing from one “curling” exercise to another, you are changing the direction of the resistance, and therefore the “resistance curve” – which is the sequence of changes in resistance that a muscle encounters through the range of motion of each exercise (each exercise has a different resistance curve). These “changes in resistance” occur as a result of the changes in lever positions (i.e. a lever encountering horizontal force versus a lever encountering parallel force). In some exercises, the resistance is greater in the beginning (like in the preacher curl), while in others the resistance is greater toward the end of the range of motion (like in concentration curls). These types of changes are good. But the movement itself needs to stay consistent with the muscle’s function.

Likewise, when selecting your side deltoid exercises, the best thing is to choose a variety of types of “side lateral movements”. For example, you might first do a seated (vertical) side dumbbell raise, following by a horizontal side dumbbell raise (while lying sideways on the floor), followed by a cable side lateral raise. Here, you have three distinctly different resistance curves, while still maintaining a strain-free mechanical movement, and getting 100% of the benefit. In the first exercise (#1), you’ll notice the resistance is greatest when your arm is at the end of the range of motion (when your arm is perpendicular to your body). In the second exercise (#2), you’ll notice the resistance is greatest at the beginning of the range of motion. And when doing the cable side raise (#3), you’ll notice the resistance is greatest somewhere in the middle of the range of motion.

Another option is dumbbell side raises while lying sideways on an incline bench, at a 45 degree angle, one arm at a time. You can also vary the degree of incline, anywhere from 45 degrees down to 15 degrees, assuming your bench offers those options (each change in the degree of incline offers a different resistance curve). And yet one more option is a side lateral raise on a machine, which maintains more of a constant resistance throughout the entire range of motion (due to the machine’s “cam”). Every change of angle, changes the stimulation that the muscle experiences, and offers a new “feeling”.

Side Raises Are King: The Benefit of a Longer Lever

Rather than shunning straight-arm-side-raises because you aren’t able to use a very heavy weight, you should embrace and appreciate the advantage of having a nice, long lever (your extended arm), with which you can magnify the weight you are using.

For example, if you were to do a straight-arm-side-raise, with a 15 pound dumbbell, the deltoid would actually be lifting much more than 15 pounds because the length of your lever (i.e. your arm, which is approximately 20 – 24 inches long) is magnifying the weight – by a factor of approximately 15 (multiply the weight you’re using, by 15). Thus, your deltoid would be lifting as much as 225 pounds, without strain to the joint! That’s a significant work-load! A straight arm side raise with even a 5 pound dumbbell would deliver approximately 75 pounds of resistance to the deltoid. Don’t believe me? Try lifting a sledgehammer – with a 15 pound hammer head – by the end of the handle, with one hand. That’s precisely what your deltoid would be lifting, every time you do a straight-arm-side-raise.

Rating the Exercises

I would rate the overhead press as a “5 – average” (6 for the front deltoid and 4 for the side deltoid) on a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of benefit. The range of motion is incomplete at the bottom of the movement, and it misses the contraction. Only 30% of the side deltoid is opposing (and therefore benefiting from) the resistance – so, as a lateral deltoid exercise, it’s pretty lousy. It’s better as an anterior (front) deltoid exercise, but there are better front deltoid exercises, and they don’t pose any risk of injury to the joint. In terms of risk, I would rate the overhead press between a “4″ and an “8” on a scale of 1 to 10 (depending on one’s individual shoulder mobility… the less mobility, the higher the risk). For most people, the exercise produces excessive external rotation of the joint, plus strain to the rotator cuff, plus impingement of the joint.

Conversely, on a scale of 1 to 10 for benefit, I would rate side raises rate as a “10”. The side deltoid is doing nearly 100% of the work, and it’s a full range of motion, ending in contraction. On a scale of 1 to 10 for risk, I would rate side-raises as a “1”. The movement is perfectly natural, with no external or internal twisting of the joint and no secondary strains to the rotator cuff.

Other exercises for the frontal deltoid – like front dumbbell raises with the palm up, supine front dumbbell presses (elbows in close to your sides), front cable raises, etc. – are very effective for developing the anterior deltoid, with far less risk. They would rate a “9-10″ for benefit, and a “1-2″ for risk.

Putting It All in Perspective

Whether your goal is to improve your physique or to improve your health, the overhead press is a poor choice. It’s true that many bodybuilders have done them, and it would appear that they have benefited from them. But in reality, it’s very likely that they benefited less from overhead presses, and more from side raises, and – if they were lucky – they might have avoided serious injury. Many have not been so lucky. It would be a mistake to assume that all exercises have the same amount of benefit, and the same amount of risk. Each exercise has its own benefit / risk ratio.

Also, don’t be fooled into believing that overhead presses are better than side raises, simply because you can use a heavier weight while doing them. The reason you can use a heavier weight is because you are using a bent arm, instead of a straight arm (i.e. a bent arm reduces resistance – resulting in better leverage, while a straight arm magnifies resistance). Also, the triceps contributes significantly to the movement, but creates the illusion that the deltoid is lifting more weight. In truth, the deltoid is not working any harder than it would during a side lateral raise.

A good compound exercise (i.e., one that involves two or more joints and muscle groups simultaneously) is one which combines two or more NATURAL movements – like a squat, or curling while simultaneously stepping up and down on a stool. An overhead press combines several movements, but only the triceps action is “natural”. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking the overhead press is a “good compound exercise” because it saves time by working several muscle groups at one time. The fact is, while you are involving several muscle groups in doing an overhead press, you are producing joint strain, and gaining only a compromised benefit to the muscles involved. Saving time is good, as long as it doesn’t result in an increased risk of injury, and a lesser benefit than other perfectly good exercises.

It makes good sense to eliminate overhead presses, if your goal is health, fitness or bodybuilding. Power lifters and certain athletes like shot putters, would benefit from overhead presses – strictly from a sports performance standpoint, even though they would still be exposed to the risk of injury.

I know that old habits are difficult to change, but try replacing overhead presses with a variety of side raises. If your goal is to make your deltoids bigger, use a substantial weight, with good form, for 6 to 10 reps per set. I’m confident you’ll see better results. Plus, you’ll avoid a shoulder injury, and your aching shoulder joints will suddenly begin feeling better.

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## jcp2

Do you do your overhead pressing seated or standing. If you do standing overhead work and finish each rep over your head, this usually helps your shoulders and may increase your bench. It actually keeps my shoulders healthy, i can see seated overhead preses cuaing problems due to imbalances especially since most people don't do much rear delt work.

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## bruary17

That shit was way too long for me, but I will say, having a torn rotator cuff that I often whine about, i did it doing sloppy overhead work. I just do cable side raises and overhead presses with a 25pnd plate till I burn out. It's not nearly as fullfilling as heavey overhead work but keeps my shoulders free from further damage.

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## goodlifting

good read. good timing as well because i just started having trouble with my left shoulder.

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## Narkissos

> Do you do your overhead pressing seated or standing. * If you do standing overhead work and finish each rep over your head, this usually helps your shoulders* and may increase your bench. * It actually keeps my shoulders healthy, i can see seated overhead preses cuaing problems due to imbalances especially since most people don't do much rear delt work.*


^^Agreed with the parts above in bold.

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## Cronos

I agree with the OP pretty much 100%. I think he's bang on, and here's why. I have injured my rotator cuff more times than I can count, an am currently dealing with the one right now, ALL occurring while performing this exercise. I was attempting to incorporate it into my routine once again on the recommendation of a few powerlifting friends of mine. I didn't rush, I worked up in weight slowly over a few weeks, but it still got me when I started to hit some heavier poundages. People have always complimented me on my delts, and my bread and butter routine is side laterals, rear laterals, upright rows and MAYBE light dumbell presses at the end all in that order. Most people don't believe that I'm not an overhead presser, but I am not and I have good deltoid development.

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## maxwkw

I really think that it depends on what you are training for. If you are going for physique goals (which many here are) then it can be an unnecessarily risky movement. However, if you are training for powerlifting or strongman it can be really helpful.

I do agree that many people have contraindications for overhead pressing, but I would say that many people are also not healthy enough for barbel flat bench press, or dips, or barbel squats.

For physique development there are better movements, but for strength development or certain sports overhead pressing can be useful.

Just different movements for different people and different goals.

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## BgMc31

I know lots of powerlifters that don't do barbell overhead presses. Some only do seated. Lots of strongmen don't bench. But if you are into strongman, you HAVE to overhead press, considering its one of the events. There is always some type of overhead press in all comps.

Like stated before, if you in it for physique development, and you don't care about numbers, don't do them, as they are not always necessary. But certain strength athletes, like myself, its absolutely essential.

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## BigBuck6

I agree with certain points of your argument but a debate wouldn't be a debate without an opposing argument. I argue that the overhead press can increase your bench if done properly. The following article was written by my old boss and powerlifting friend of mine who is a licenses Physical Therapist and retired strongman competitor.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/be...or_dummies.htm

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## funkymonk

Interesting, maybe I will drop OHPs

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## LatissimusaurousRex

I agree that it is a delicate movement and it should def be approached with care and CONTROL, not just a muscle f*ck with all your might. I feel leaving it out will be leaving out a unique range of motion. The shoulder joint has the most ROM in the body, and the OHS is a pretty natural movement. You should be able to press the bar from your chest, up over your head. If you can not, then you work on your flexibility until you can. Also the first problem stated in that argument is simply an assumption that someone doesn't know the mechanics behind what muscles are being used in a shoulder press. I think most intermediately-experienced lifters should know what muscles they're hitting with what exercises. I def think people who have been previously injured on this exercise will be more than willing to side with that argument. Obviously, if an injury keeps you from doing the exercise then don't do it. Your not gonna skip out on bench and just do flies are you? (I know that analogy isn't 100%, but u get what I'm saying) Then why leave the shoulder press out? If you're not concerned with the numbers your throwing up in the air, then just do it on chest day to eliminate the extra shoulder strain through the week. Think of it as a bench press that's removing the use of your pectorals and putting all the weight on your delts, cause that's basically what it is, why wouldn't you want a shoulder smoker like that? That just me 2 cents though :\

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## BgMc31

> I agree with certain points of your argument but a debate wouldn't be a debate without an opposing argument. I argue that the overhead press can increase your bench if done properly. The following article was written by my old boss and powerlifting friend of mine who is a licenses Physical Therapist and retired strongman competitor.
> 
> http://www.elitefts.com/documents/be...or_dummies.htm


Couldn't agree with that article more. Seems people are always looking for a reason to shy away from the heavy core movements.

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## arizona32

I have found that full range, light weight overhead presses are very beneficial, as are push presses with momentum starting from the legs over full range of motion. I agree that going to heavy is risky and completely agree that seated, partial range and especially behind the neck presses are dangerous.

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## Humungus

I couldn't agree more with the main article here. I have consistently messed up my rotator cuffs using both techniques both sitting and standing in the correct position using the correct form. Usually this happens when I am at the top of my gains. I always had tried hitting it light with slow heavy progressions over time. It gets me every time once I have achieved a new level and sets me back for months. I bench 425 with out the use of any overhead presses and am perfectly fine. I believe some are more prone to this injury than others. The idea that one would use a reason to shy away from heavy core movements is asinine. Whats the point of going to the gym? We should try and keep the dialog here a little more intelligent.

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## VegasRenegade

i had stayed away from them for quite a while then felt good a blew out my shoulder will not do them again after i heal up.

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## TOkidd

I've always done heavy shoulder presses with dumbells. That said, I have injured my shoulder doing presses, but it was with the bar. I switched to dumbells and haven't had an injury since. 
These days, I only do Arnold presses with dumbells and can't imagine giving them up. I don't go as heavy as I used to, but I find an overall increase in delt strength, especially the front portion, which does help bench strength. Of course lateral raises are better for the lateral delt!

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## Floydian

great thread !

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## olylifter

As an olympic weightlifter, I can say that overhead work is essential to basic strength. We do not bench, and our rear delts and shoulder girdle are constantly being used and strengthened, and if those are weak I can say you will get injured. We press from the front and back, jerk grip, narrow grip, and snatch grip. The best solution I would say would be not to get rid of the exercise, but hit it light, get proper range of motion, and make sure to get rid of all muscular imbalances in the body first, before putting the blame on something that has too many benefits to not use.

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## tyciol

> By rotating the arm externally, to the point where the forearm is perpendicular to the ground, you automatically rotate your lateral deltoid toward the rear, and away from the position that is best suited to oppose the downward resistance (gravity). Instead, you rotate your frontal deltoid up into a position that is more in opposition to gravity. In fact, if you were to look to the side, at your deltoid, while performing an overhead press movement (even without using weight), you will observe (especially if you are lean enough to see the division between your front and side deltoids), that the position opposite the downward resistance (i.e. on the top side of the shoulder) is occupied about 70% by the frontal deltoid, and about 30% by the side deltoid. This means that 70% of the resistance is benefiting the frontal deltoid, and only 30% of the resistance is benefiting the side deltoid.


Viewing ripped bodybuilders doing a rear double biceps or whatever


Illustrates this pretty well, you can see the front delt on top, the rear delt on the bottom (why it helps with extension/adduction in pull ups in this position) and the middle delt in the middle, which is why the middle delt helps with "rear delt" movements like reverse laterals while in this externally rotated position.

People internally rotate the shoulders during rear fly movements to take the middle delt out of the movement, because internal rotation shifts the work back.

The reverse is also true, external rotation shifts the work forward, which is why overhead press hits the front delts so much.




> Since the Lateral Deltoid does only one thing  lateral abduction (i.e. a side raise movement)


Doesn't it also do transverse abduction when we're externally rotated? Like in a reverse fly with a hammer grip on upright bars?

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## mirin_serratus

> As an olympic weightlifter, I can say that overhead work is essential to basic strength. We do not bench, and our rear delts and shoulder girdle are constantly being used and strengthened, and if those are weak I can say you will get injured. We press from the front and back, jerk grip, narrow grip, and snatch grip. The best solution I would say would be not to get rid of the exercise, but hit it light, get proper range of motion, and make sure to get rid of all muscular imbalances in the body first, before putting the blame on something that has too many benefits to not use.


actually the shoulder joint has been studied extensively and it really is just a shitty joint for the amount of work it is used for in bodybuilding. Most people with years of heavy pressing do get shoulder injuries and unless you're a pro theres really no point in risking it

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## Armykid93

I hate the over head presses.They just hurt for me.

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## lmmalone

I love my ohp. Makes my shoulders feel great. Only thing is that sometimes I strain too hard and tweak my neck. Need to clean my form a bit i suppose...

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## tcw

I think doing shoulder presses ALL THE WAY UP causes most of your impingement. Try not to make presses your main exercise for delts...but include them as your 2nd exercise...with short movements and lighter weight.

The are plenty of champion BB that don't do shoulder presses anymore because of the injury factor. Moreover, plenty of champs that don't do flat benching anymore due to injurys too. 

Lets face it.....presses are Hard work and can cause serious damage to your delts.

Ultimately, no one can tell you what is right or wrong for you. You are the final decision maker.

One of the best, toughest movement for delts is the Arnold Dumbbell Press. Use the shoulders to push up weight....and when almost to the top, twist the shoulder to get the back deltoid involved. Not too much weight needed....this is not a heavy weight exercise.

Go easy with the Delts...they have to last you for the rest of your days.

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