# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING Q & A >  Extreme Bodybuilding Gear Use!!!!

## Metalject

A few of you have asked me for this, so here you go. 
For the cry babies that will inevitably feel the need to say I shouldn't promote or encourage things like this, well I'm not. I'm simply laying out what is reality when it comes to big time bodybuilding, and we're not simply talking about pro's either. 


Phase 1:
WK 1-4: Test-E or Cyp 200-250mg/ed, a full 2g if feeling froggy
WK 1-4: Nandrolone (NPP) 700-1000mg/wk
WK 1-4: EQ 700-1000mg/wk
Wk 1-4: HGH 10iu/ed
WK 1-4: Optional Insulin 10iu/w Breakfast, 10iu before training

Phase 2:
Wk 5-8: Test-E or Cyp 200-250mg/ed, a full 2g if feeling froggy
WK 5-8: Tren -Acetate 700mg/wk (100mg/ed) a full 1000mg if feeling froggy
WK 5-8: Masteron -Prop 700mg/wk (100mg/ed) a full 1000mg if feeling froggy
WK 5-8: HGH 20iu/ed - 5 in the morning, 5 before bed and 10 around your training (post)
WK 5-8: Insulin - same as phase 1
WK 5-8: T3 75-125mcg/ed

Phase 3:
WK 9-12: Tren-Acetate 1000-1200mg/wk
WK 9-12: Masteron-Prop 1000-1200mg/wk (I always prefer Tren & Masteron to be equal in dosing)
WK 9-12: HGH Same as phase 2
WK 9-12: 100-150mcg/ed

AI (anastrozole) 0.5-1mg/eod. Last 2-3wks increase to 1mg/ed
HGH: Discontinue 10-14 days before the end.
Testosterone : Decrease during Phase 3 if needed but run as same in Phase 2 if it's all working well. If decreasing is needed, there's never a reason to remove it all. At minimum keep 100mg/wk in there. 

Other additions:
Primobolan : some include it, some don't.
Anavar or Winstrol : Probably not needed but if used it's run 100mg var or 50-100mg winny...both are run daily. 
Caffeine: every day before training: 200-300mg
Post workout shakes: Use Isolate only, mix with fast and slow carbs
Post workout carbs: Dextrose is good, I like waxy maze and mix with oats. Use Dextrose or gatorade or similar mixed with whey if a shake is needed in the middle of training.

In a perfect world, this stack starts 4-8wks prior to what was laid out here and includes 500-1000mg of testosterone per week and 10iu of HGH per day. 

Yes, I realize I've mentioned nothing about PCT. Why, because if you're this guy PCT is usually going to be worthless. 

So there you go, big boy stack.

----------


## SOL!D5NAK3

damn that's a lot of money.
why insulin before workout? i thought they inject it post workouts

----------


## marcus300

Can you post a picture of yourself with this kind of use.

Ive used up to 5g's per week but the side's out did the results inho but I do have a golden amount what makes magic happen but on this forum I don't think its a good idea because the majority are newbs and its not wise because they will think this is whats needed to get the results of the big guys and its not often true

----------


## < <Samson> >

Thank your for the thread bro


Actually quite a bit more mild compared to a few that I have heard.

----------


## PistolPete33

> Can you post a picture of yourself with this kind of use.
> 
> Ive used up to 5g's per week but the side out did the results inho but I do have a golden amount what makes magic happen but on this forum I don't think its a good idea because the majority are newbs and its not wise because they will think this is whats needed to get the results of the big guys and its not often true


Just curious as to how many cycles you've run up to this point? Not flaming of course just truly curious.  :Smilie:

----------


## marcus300

> Just curious as to how many cycles you've run up to this point? Not flaming of course just truly curious.


I've been training for 30yrs and started to experiment with high dose short burst cycles under the supervision of Dorian's anabolic coach at the time. . I'd been cycling roughly ten yrs before hitting high dose but I don't recommend it.

----------


## MIKE_XXL

One of my trainees is knocking at the door of a pro card ad this is more or less what his regiment looks like...more or less about 5gm of variety of compounds also i have another guy that was invited to mr.universe and it is much the same with addition of myo-statin inhibitors...i also have my sweet spot when it comes to me but i will not post it here...for me in general the way i look at it is 33% test, this should always be the base of any cycle...then 33% heavy Androgens like tren , halo, masteron ...then last 33% is reserved for anabolic sush as anavar , primo or winny etc...i agree with Metalject about Test, this should always be in, millions of years of evolution can not be wrong, there is a reason human body makes testosterone and not deca or tren...test is best...

----------


## Metalject

> Can you post a picture of yourself with this kind of use.
> 
> Ive used up to 5g's per week but the side out did the results inho but I do have a golden amount what makes magic happen but on this forum I don't think its a good idea because the majority are newbs and its not wise because they will think this is whats needed to get the results of the big guys and its not often true


I have never used this much at once. The most gear I've ever used has been in the 3500mg in total per week along with HGH. Results? OK, maybe you could call them decent, but I was never that good of a bodybuilder, not the best genetic response to gear. The above example was simply an example, like what MikeXXL talked about regarding some of the competitors I've worked with over the years...guys that are actually good bodybuilders. A bad bodybuilder, not bad because of effort but just weaker genetics, isn't going to turn into awesome because of something like the above example. I know you know that, just stating it in a general sense.

----------


## < <Samson> >

Correct me if I am wrong on this - But, the way I figure the need for the massive doses is due to the usual human body tolerance. 

Just like any drug/medication - it takes a little to get going, but when you are going and want even a little bit more, the body requires much more of the compound


Seeing myself at the point I am at now - I see what it takes to make even the little amount that I want to gain. It will take a shit ton of everything under the sun. - But, a "shit ton" is only relevant to the user - In this case, being me. I am not willing to take the damage.


I started to form this as a conclusion after speaking to a guy damn near the stats I wish I was some day. - He was putting down right about the same amount of gear as mentioned above. Size & Bf% compared to myself - He had about 10-15 pounds of LBM on me and about 5-10 pounds of shit weight less.


That's the real deal - for myself & everyone else. But, it all does depend on our genetics in every way - Where are you starting from, how your body responds/reacts to different compounds & so on.


Most people will never understand this, or come to this conclusion only after being at this for very long time

----------


## Mp859

> Correct me if I am wrong on this - But, the way I figure the need for the massive doses is due to the usual human body tolerance. Just like any drug/medication - it takes a little to get going, but when you are going and want even a little bit more, the body requires much more of the compound Seeing myself at the point I am at now - I see what it takes to make even the little amount that I want to gain. It will take a shit ton of everything under the sun. - But, a "shit ton" is only relevant to the user - In this case, being me. I am not willing to take the damage. I started to form this as a conclusion after speaking to a guy damn near the stats I wish I was some day. - He was putting down right about the same amount of gear as mentioned above. Size & Bf% compared to myself - He had about 10-15 pounds of LBM on me and about 5-10 pounds of shit weight less. That's the real deal - for myself & everyone else. But, it all does depend on our genetics in every way - Where are you starting from, how your body responds/reacts to different compounds & so on. Most people will never understand this, or come to this conclusion only after being at this for very long time


 I have a buddy who literally grows off anything. Eats decently but not a lot. Meh is a monster and super low bf. He also doesn't train very hard. Some people are just born for this shit. Genetically he is superior. Same goes for pros.

----------


## < <Samson> >

> I have a buddy who literally grows off anything. Eats decently but not a lot. Meh is a monster and super low bf. He also doesn't train very hard. Some people are just born for this shit. Genetically he is superior. Same goes for pros.



Same exact shit here

I met a guy not too long ago who buys just a few vials of test & mast off me here & there - the guy is 235 12<Bf% & my height

Barely runs gear, barely touches PCT & never uses HCG . Says his dick works damn near perfect even when coming off without any real PCT - Has 3 kids & is 5 years younger than me - Said he ran one 3 month GH cycle and he just blew up from 150 to 200. Then ran a few mild cycle & just grew non stop. He said he would rather be my size & doesn't even wanna be that big. Eats near whatever - I just watch this dude & just say WTF to myself. He could totally be pro if he put in a tiny bit of effort - but says he's getting tired of attention it draws already.

Got another one, he's 40 - looks 30. Been juicing since he was 16, never even runs PCT and just cycles random crap. Looks very good for his age and runs a bit of gear, near forever - you couldn't even tell. I'm like WTH

----------


## tice1212

> .
> Phase 1:
> WK 1-4: Test-E or Cyp 200-250mg/ed, a full 2g if feeling froggy
> WK 1-4: Nandrolone (NPP) 700-1000mg/wk
> WK 1-4: EQ 700-1000mg/wk
> Wk 1-4: HGH 10iu/ed
> WK 1-4: Optional Insulin 10iu/w Breakfast, 10iu before training
> 
> Yes, I realize I've mentioned nothing about PCT. Why, because if you're this guy PCT is usually going to be worthless.
> .


Great insight and write up. I have two questions.
1: Why not run tren A for the full cycle. Why use NPP and EQ? Much weaker componds from what I understand.
2: why would PCT be worthless? Because most likely they wouldn't recover from a cycle like this or because most likely they are on TRT? 
Thanks bro

----------


## Metalject

> Correct me if I am wrong on this - But, the way I figure the need for the massive doses is due to the usual human body tolerance. 
> 
> Just like any drug/medication - it takes a little to get going, but when you are going and want even a little bit more, the body requires much more of the compound
> 
> 
> Seeing myself at the point I am at now - I see what it takes to make even the little amount that I want to gain. It will take a shit ton of everything under the sun. - But, a "shit ton" is only relevant to the user - In this case, being me. I am not willing to take the damage.
> 
> 
> I started to form this as a conclusion after speaking to a guy damn near the stats I wish I was some day. - He was putting down right about the same amount of gear as mentioned above. Size & Bf% compared to myself - He had about 10-15 pounds of LBM on me and about 5-10 pounds of shit weight less.
> ...


I think you're on the right track. 

It takes a certain amount of food and gear to support a certain amount of muscle tissue. Take one of those away and the support system crumbles. I always find it humorous when guys talk about keeping all of their gains after coming off and never losing them. Sure, you can eat more when you come off and that will help, but food and gear aren't interchangeable items. Of course I realize some make keep/lose gains comments when they have no clue what a gain really is. 

I've shared this before, best shape I've ever been in was 196lbs, 4.3% in the tank, 4.7% with calipers. Yes, I felt like I was dying. I'm 5'9". Heaviest off-season I've ever been was 237, could still fit in my 32" pants but they were snug....probably too snug. In either case, those stats (not all that impressive) would be impossible for me to maintain without gear. Yet one of my closest longtime friends, he's about an inch taller, he can maintain 200+lbs and very lean without any gear for an extended period of time and somewhat easily. This gets into genetics...anyway, off point a bit.

The more isn't always better comment we always here - yes, that's partly true, it's not always better. More side effects cannot be called better, and for a lot of guys, a lot more gear isn't going to make a huge difference. But when you get to that elite level of bodybuilding, "more" is what separates them out. And elite or not, in the end it all boils down to how much risk you're willing to take. This is no different than anything else in life, all things have a risk and when you add more to that thing the risks go up. 

Last thought, kind of a side note after writing this out. I wasted a lot of time and effort when I was younger trying this and that with training, gear and food. Where I grew up there weren't a lot of bodybuilders around and most weren't willing to talk to a young guy about the truth...so trial and error entered in. And this was back when message boards first started out, late 90's...I remember coming here to this board as a young guy and others as well and could not get a real answer to save my life because I was still in my early 20's. 36 now. It was very frustrating, and as a result more trial and error ensued. But the long and short, a lot of banging my head against the wall ensued over the years, and I'm 100% sure I could have done much better if I knew what I know now...and most of us can say that about most things in life. But now, a little older, I don't care as much anymore. My priorities have changed, but I still enjoy sharing my thoughts and trial and errors and what little bit I've learned over the years.

----------


## Metalject

> Great insight and write up. I have two questions.
> 1: Why not run tren A for the full cycle. Why use NPP and EQ? Much weaker componds from what I understand.
> 
> *You could use Tren the whole time, most people simply can't handle it or don't like it that long. But the primary advantage is simply in changing the gear items out, you tend to get more bang for your buck that way. So you start out with milder compounds but to keep the dose high you start with things like NPP and EQ. Sure, you could drop the EQ and add more test, but this can get hairy at doses that high. It's easier to keep the total MG's up by adding in the EQ...that's the only point in the EQ in a cycle like this. 
> *






> 2: why would PCT be worthless? Because most likely they wouldn't recover from a cycle like this or because most likely they are on TRT? 
> Thanks bro
> 
> *PCT is worthless if you're never actually coming off gear or at best taking short breaks. Say you're on a full cycle for 16wks and then you're going to take a break from everything for 6-8wks. You run PCT during that short 6-8wk break, stimulate natural production only to immediately shut it back down again. That roller coaster is a disaster. But this type of gear use doesn't apply to the majority of every day gym rats who like to use a bit of gear. And yes, PCT is pointless if on TRT...there's nothing to recover if on TRT. 
> *


Above in red.

----------


## < <Samson> >

Hey, bro - what's your opinion of running "partial type" PCT while on low doses?

What I mean by that, is I run Clomid about once a year, at a decent dose while on a low dose of test. This was kinda my own idea into keeping my bawls somewhat intact. 

Or - I have heard from a few semi pros who insist on coming of gear completely for short burst. Let's say a month twice yearly. 

In between cycles, I stay at about a 300mg dose of test now. All numbers on my BW are solid as of right now. 

I am just trying to see what's best practice in the long run.

----------


## marcus300

> I have a buddy who literally grows off anything. Eats decently but not a lot. Meh is a monster and super low bf. He also doesn't train very hard. Some people are just born for this shit. Genetically he is superior. Same goes for pros.


That's very true, genetics play a huge part in how we grow and respond to gear. I have two pro's friends who compete at a top level and both are the opposite sides of cycles. One has never used over 1000mgs per week of total anabolics and regular uses just 500-750mgs he also goes into PCT, the other guy uses 5g+ 7g+ of total anabolics and bridges all his cycles together with his HRT dose which in many cases is a small cycle. It all depends on you but for the majority on this forum I must stress that using high amounts of gear wont turn you into the next pro or stood on the Mr O stage it takes a hell of a lot more interventions to get even close to that level and 99% of us will never reach it due to our genetics and lifestyles.

I came off gear for around 4 years when I was going through TRT and once I started to get my level right I maintained 240+lbs with the way I trained and my diet and my trt at the time was 125mgs per week. I'm 260lbs at the moment and only on trt and these days only cycle twice per yr if that I build and maintain via extreme training protocol and diet but many cant and some can it all depends on that individual but in all honesty I don't really think the cycle posted is extreme to the cycles ive seen many use but again everyone is different in their use.

But I cant stress enough for the newbie running high dose cycles doesn't mean you will be 200lbs+ 240lbs+ 260lbs+, all you should do is use as little as you can to achieve the goals you require, high dose to someone who has been using for 10+ yrs is different to a guy in his early 20's who has been using for 3 yrs.

----------


## MIKE_XXL

Genetics, Genetics, Genetics...that is the key factor in the way you utilize food and drugs handle heavy loads of training etc...i do not have best genetics but i try to do best i can with what i got...

----------


## tice1212

> But I cant stress enough for the newbie running high dose cycles doesn't mean you will be 200lbs+ 240lbs+ 260lbs+, all you should do is use as little as you can to achieve the goals you require, high dose to someone who has been using for 10+ yrs is different to a guy in his early 20's who has been using for 3 yrs.


So true!

----------


## hawk14dl

I'm curious, what type of dosage do the pros have to run for their trt?

No doubt, it takes a lot of anabolic to maintain that kind of mass

----------


## Metalject

> Hey, bro - what's your opinion of running "partial type" PCT while on low doses?
> 
> What I mean by that, is I run Clomid about once a year, at a decent dose while on a low dose of test. This was kinda my own idea into keeping my bawls somewhat intact. 
> 
> Or - I have heard from a few semi pros who insist on coming of gear completely for short burst. Let's say a month twice yearly. 
> 
> In between cycles, I stay at about a 300mg dose of test now. All numbers on my BW are solid as of right now. 
> 
> I am just trying to see what's best practice in the long run.


Even with the clomid you're not ever recovering natural production. You will remained naturally shut down at all times with this approach. How big of a deal is that? Depends on the guy.

----------


## < <Samson> >

> Even with the clomid you're not ever recovering natural production. You will remained naturally shut down at all times with this approach. How big of a deal is that? Depends on the guy.




Thanks for the input man, kinda what I figured - but, good to ask


Not many guys really discuss the reality of maintaining mass and size. Only a few rare select few have the genetics to hold a large leanish size without staying on something. 



It's just a learning experience of reality Vs. what we once thought.

----------


## Times Roman

agree that too many newbs will see an advanced cycle protocol and think in order to get big they better cycle big.

there are other places to post besides here

----------


## Metalject

> agree that too many newbs will see an advanced cycle protocol and think in order to get big they better cycle big.
> 
> there are other places to post besides here


TR, I enjoy discussing certain things with you. I definitely see you as one of the more well-rounded individuals of the message board, and that applies to many areas of thought. So I don't say this in a disrespecting manner, which I wanted to first clarify. It's very easy for the tone of voice to be misunderstood when you're reading someone's written words.

I'm of the opinion that truth, regardless of the topic, is always better than a lie or if not a lie an omission because we feel a certain individual might not be ready for the truth. From my own personal experience, it was the lies or omissions that caused me so many frustrations when I was younger. At that time, there is nothing anyone could have said to dissuade me from bodybuilding or steroid use . And because of the "big brother" attitude many tend to have, while it may have been intended to protect me, all it did was cause larger problems that could have been potentially avoided. 

My view, and this applies to all things in life - present a man with truthful information, all of it, and from there let him make his decision. Let his course of action evolve on its own, and while he may choose the wrong course, that is his failing. At least he had the information at hand rather than guessing, which most always leads to mistakes. That's my opinion on the matter.

----------


## Times Roman

> TR, I enjoy discussing certain things with you. I definitely see you as one of the more well-rounded individuals of the message board, and that applies to many areas of thought. So I don't say this in a disrespecting manner, which I wanted to first clarify. It's very easy for the tone of voice to be misunderstood when you're reading someone's written words.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that truth, regardless of the topic, is always better than a lie or if not a lie an omission because we feel a certain individual might not be ready for the truth. From my own personal experience, it was the lies or omissions that caused me so many frustrations when I was younger. At that time, there is nothing anyone could have said to dissuade me from bodybuilding or steroid use . And because of the "big brother" attitude many tend to have, while it may have been intended to protect me, all it did was cause larger problems that could have been potentially avoided. 
> 
> My view, and this applies to all things in life - present a man with truthful information, all of it, and from there let him make his decision. Let his course of action evolve on its own, and while he may choose the wrong course, that is his failing. At least he had the information at hand rather than guessing, which most always leads to mistakes. That's my opinion on the matter.


Thank you for the level headed response. I took it in the spirit intended.

I don't always necessarily think truthful full disclosure is always appropriate.

Let's take the discussion to an alarming extreme to express my point, then i'll reel it in and make it relevant.

When your five year old daughter is asking about where babies come from, you give her information that is appropriate to her level of development and maturity. 

"Daddy puts a seed in mommy and the baby grows in a special place in mommy's tummy"

...................is an age appropriate response.

You don't fully disclose what she can't handle. You do not show her a porn video of a man and a woman having intercourse, right?

80% of members here are newbs. 

This means, a year or two in the gym, and a vague idea of nutrition. And many are under 25, looking to not only to their first cycle, but looking for a source too. This is the rank and file of our members.

These are the people, for the most part, we try to protect.

The members that are not in this category, that have lifted for a significant amount of time, know about nutrition, and have ran previous cycles, These people over time rise through the ranks and are recognized for their experience and efforts, just like you did.

But for the most part, most of us staffers here tailor our comments to the rank and file. 

There are places beyond the edges of the map where we can go to discuss things of a more intermediate nature.

I understand your intent.

Those that you describe that are on the one hand newbs, yet have a burning desire to advance, these people will become self evident, and these are the ones that fill up our inboxes via pm that we respond to one on one.

And over time, once they prove themselves, will rise up through the ranks, just like you did, and will be able to explore places outside the edges of the map.

But, thoughts can be dangerous things, and once you plant a thought in someone's head, over time, they tend to act on it.

Cheers!
---Roman

----------


## Metalject

> Thank you for the level headed response. I took it in the spirit intended.
> 
> I don't always necessarily think truthful full disclosure is always appropriate.
> 
> Let's take the discussion to an alarming extreme to express my point, then i'll reel it in and make it relevant.
> 
> When your five year old daughter is asking about where babies come from, you give her information that is appropriate to her level of development and maturity. 
> 
> "Daddy puts a seed in mommy and the baby grows in a special place in mommy's tummy"
> ...


It's funny you should bring up the birds and the bees example. When I wrote my previous reply I meant to include something about that, but I was distracted by my own thought process. I agree, of course you're not going to tell a child the specifics of that. There are many things you cannot explain to a child, but we're not talking about children. In my opinion, omissions of truth are hard to justify even in the name of looking out for someone when you're talking about adults. Granted, you can argue that a 20 something is not an adult, but that's really a matter of the 20 something we're talking about - some are more mature than others while others are even stupider than they were at 14yrs old. Of course I know truly grown me, 40yrs old plus that are as idiotic and as immature as they were at 18 and I'm sure we all know guys like that.

----------


## tice1212

> agree that too many newbs will see an advanced cycle protocol and think in order to get big they better cycle big.
> 
> there are other places to post besides here


I have to disagree with u TR. I personally think metal posted this cycle in the right section. Most newbie would come on here and go right to the Q&A section imo. Metal put this post in the competition thread. I'd rather hear a true amount of dosages and gear to put things into perspective for future reference.

----------


## hawk14dl

I'd still like to know what the current pros use for a maintenance dose. . Anybody?

----------


## Metalject

> I'd still like to know what the current pros use for a maintenance dose. . Anybody?


A large pro bodybuilder isn't going to need anymore testosterone than an average man who doesn't workout at all if he is simply trying to maintain normal testosterone levels . 
If you're talking about maintenance of mass and size, that's another story and the two. Maintaining normal levels and maintaing size, those are such different discussions it's applies to oranges. 

Most pro bodybuilders take one of two approaches:

1. Take a lot of everything and then come off everything for a short time. A lot of guys do this, more than seems to be commonly thought. And by take nothing, I mean take nothing. Most won't train during this phase either. Definitely a better option than option two.

2. Take a lot of everything and then take a lower dose of testosterone but still a high dose. 

That's pretty much it.

----------


## hawk14dl

I was meaning toward number 2.

I would figure (Just an assumption) they're 300 -500 of test/week to maintain their size. Close?

----------


## Metalject

> I was meaning toward number 2.
> 
> I would figure (Just an assumption) they're 300 -500 of test/week to maintain their size. Close?


Depends on the guy, but usually more than that.

----------


## hawk14dl

Wow. Incredible

----------


## MIKE_XXL

I know my top guys usually cruse at 1gm per week...not necessarily what i recommend, but they are trying to turn pro and thats what it takes...

----------


## hawk14dl

How often are they draining blood? Their blood counts must be off the chart cruising at that amount

----------


## < <Samson> >

> How often are they draining blood? Their blood counts must be off the chart cruising at that amount


I would say quite often

I'd love to see what their BW looks like after a few years of this type of use. 

Cool looking, or not - that has to be a beating on the human body

----------


## Aerospace

damn..how much is all of that?

----------


## fitnesstrainer

> Can you post a picture of yourself with this kind of use. Ive used up to 5g's per week but the side's out did the results inho but I do have a golden amount what makes magic happen but on this forum I don't think its a good idea because the majority are newbs and its not wise because they will think this is whats needed to get the results of the big guys and its not often true


So true! There are guys out there who only need a very small amount of anything to get huge results. I've heard many competitors say they tried these insane cycles just to find the sides were way worse and they weren't getting any better results.

----------


## Metalject

> How often are they draining blood? Their blood counts must be off the chart cruising at that amount


Impossible to prove either way but I'd say most do not give blood that often if at all. I'd say blood work isn't all that common either. Sure, there are a few who stay up on all that but very few.

----------


## < <Samson> >

Kinda of a off beat question,

What do you think is semi typical life span of a heavy juicer?

Just saying man - I mean, I know what it takes to achieve what they are - but, it's disregard to ones own health

Just interesting shit to hear

----------


## Metalject

Somewhat hard to say. There have certainly been some deaths but most are still alive. The rate of death doesn't seem to be any better or worse than any other segment of the population.

----------


## < <Samson> >

I was thinking about that after making the post

There are just too many variables 


This isn't a lab controlled experiment 

Personally - I go by 3 factors, 1:How good I feel, 2:My BW & 3:How it's making me look

But, I'm no pro

I understand what the big guys are going for - def cool for some people to do

I don't knock anyone's game - their body

----------


## hankdiesel

> I know my top guys usually cruse at 1gm per week...not necessarily what i recommend, but they are trying to turn pro and thats what it takes...


cruise on 1 gram.....why? Less than half of that will keep test levels way above normal range. That is wreckless behavior, unnecessary, and what I would call major abuse.

----------


## < <Samson> >

> cruise on 1 gram.....why? Less than half of that will keep test levels way above normal range. That is wreckless behavior, unnecessary, and what I would call major abuse.


IMO it would not make a huge difference positively to your health if your cruising on half a G to a G - it's a ton of gear to keep a ton of muscle

----------


## marcus300

> cruise on 1 gram.....why? Less than half of that will keep test levels way above normal range. That is wreckless behavior, unnecessary, and what I would call major abuse.


Agreed, many I know use nothing like that but there are exceptions but overall they don't

----------


## Times Roman

> Somewhat hard to say. There have certainly been some deaths but most are still alive. The rate of death doesn't seem to be any better or worse than any other segment of the population.


I would have to say it's too early to tell. The first real generation of heavy aas users are from when? 60's and 70's. In order to properly answer that question, we would have to wait for that generation to die off, compile the death rates, and then compare them to the general population at large.

If I had to take a stab at an answer, I would imagine the death rate to be maybe ten years earlier than the general population at large. Reasons would be obvious...

prolonged exposure to high blood pressure
prolonged exposure to high RBC / hematocrit
prolonged exposure to a lifestyle that has to financially support a very expensive habit that costs for some, upwards of thirty or forty thousand a year. Imagine what some have to do to financially support this overhead?
prolonged exposure to a lifetime of taking UGL products and all the inherently unhealthy contaminants that result from using UGL

just look at each of the negative sides of steroid use , and then imagine a thousand guys exposed to this for forty years.

What do you think the odds are of them living an average lifespan?

----------


## MIKE_XXL

> cruise on 1 gram.....why? Less than half of that will keep test levels way above normal range. That is wreckless behavior, unnecessary, and what I would call major abuse.


Like i said it is not what i recommend, but these guys have a mind of their own, they feel if they cut out the orals they are good to go...keep in mind the people i am referring to are literally knocking on the pro card level...i still dont condone it but there is only so much i can do as a trainer...i cruise on 250mg of test per week...and by cruise i mean TRT...we are talking about guys at 8%BF at 287lbs...that is insane...using 20ius of GH on top of that...i do what i can to keep my clients healthy but at times my hand are tide...

----------


## Metalject

> I would have to say it's too early to tell. The first real generation of heavy aas users are from when? 60's and 70's. In order to properly answer that question, we would have to wait for that generation to die off, compile the death rates, and then compare them to the general population at large.
> 
> If I had to take a stab at an answer, I would imagine the death rate to be maybe ten years earlier than the general population at large. Reasons would be obvious...
> 
> prolonged exposure to high blood pressure
> prolonged exposure to high RBC / hematocrit
> prolonged exposure to a lifestyle that has to financially support a very expensive habit that costs for some, upwards of thirty or forty thousand a year. Imagine what some have to do to financially support this overhead?
> prolonged exposure to a lifetime of taking UGL products and all the inherently unhealthy contaminants that result from using UGL
> 
> ...


All good points. 
The average life expectancy is around 70yrs worldwide. A lot of the 60's & 70's bodybuilders are knocking on that door now so time will tell. Of course, if you take out the life expectancy of many third world countries, especially those in Africa, the life expectancy goes to 80+ years. Since the vast majority of bodybuilders come from the U.S. and Europe I guess we can return to this conversation in about 20yrs and see how it panned out  :Smilie:

----------


## hankdiesel

> Like i said it is not what i recommend, but these guys have a mind of their own, they feel if they cut out the orals they are good to go...keep in mind the people i am referring to are literally knocking on the pro card level...i still dont condone it but there is only so much i can do as a trainer...i cruise on 250mg of test per week...and by cruise i mean TRT...we are talking about guys at 8%BF at 287lbs...that is insane...using 20ius of GH on top of that...i do what i can to keep my clients healthy but at times my hand are tide...


of coarse it is not on you, it's on them.

----------


## Times Roman

> All good points. 
> The average life expectancy is around 70yrs *worldwide*. A lot of the 60's & 70's bodybuilders are knocking on that door now so time will tell. Of course, if you take out the life expectancy of many third world countries, especially those in Africa, the life expectancy goes to 80+ years. Since the vast majority of bodybuilders come from the U.S. and Europe I guess we can return to this conversation in about 20yrs and see how it panned out



you need to compare apples with apples.

if you want to know the impact long term AAS use has on those that live in highly industrialized countries, then you really only should look at the death rates from those countries.

What they do in other countries may not be the same as what we do in our country.

Let me explain.

When I lived in Afghanistan, securing legit pharm grade test/(tren )/deca is absolutely no problem. you just walk in and order it. So the need to expose oneself to the bullshit we have to endure because of the contaminants found in UGL is non applicable. this could be a big issue in the USA and a non issue in this non industrialized country.

So in this example, the impact AAS would have on those in the bodybuilding community in the USA would be greater than on those in Afghanistan.

If you want a real good comparison, only compare people that live within the same conditions that we have here.

----------


## Times Roman

^blows your mind, doesn't it?

cleaner drugs in Afghanistan than in the good ol' USA?

----------


## tice1212

Just read this figured it would go well with this thread http://www.t - nation.c om/steroids/...e-really-using

Hey guys sorry the link won't show up if u put it up all in one link.. U have to put take away the space between t- and nation and the space between c and om. ADMIN put up the post below for all to read!

----------


## Metalject

Link doesn't work, at least not on my end

----------


## *Admin*

Several have said they can not pull this up so here it is...

This is a copy of the article from the link posted above- All Credit for the article goes to *Shadow Pro* written for *********.*


Steroids: What Pro Bodybuilders Are Really Using*
by *Shadow Pro* For *********

*The-real-cycles-of-bodybuilders* 
Here's what you need to know...
•A pro bodybuilder could spend $8,000 to $20,000 for a 16-week competition cycle.
•Most pros are regularly monitored by trusted doctors who know exactly what they're using.
•Most health issues and deaths associated with bodybuilders are related not to steroid use but rather recreational drug use. That being said, diuretics and insulin can get a bodybuilder into trouble.
•This article contains the real drug cycle of a professional bodybuilder. Do not attempt it.
Editor's Note: T Nation was approached by an IFBB pro bodybuilder who wanted to write anonymous articles for us as well as answer questions honestly in our steroid forum. After verifying his identity we decided to give him a platform. "Shadow Pro" was born.
*The Truth
Ampules* 
Remember those heated debates you heard as a kid about whether or not pro wrestling was real? Well, when I first started bodybuilding there were people actually arguing about whether or not the pros used steroids and other drugs.
Really.
You can't blame them (entirely). The magazines at the time never said a word about steroids and the pros of course couldn't be forthright when someone was brave enough to ask. It was a huge secret... and yet it really wasn't.
Today things have changed, but I still hear a lot of lies and misconceptions about steroid use in professional, amateur, and "natural" bodybuilding.
Related:  How Natural is Natural Bodybuilding?
Most of this comes from online rumors and internet "gurus" throwing around nonsense. I want to set a few things straight about the real cycles used by pros and top amateurs.
An Inside Peek
Syringe 
First, let's talk about health. Yes, we care about that. Most of us at least. Perfect diet and supplementation play a huge role in keeping us healthy while on a cycle. If we eat like shit and neglect our health, then we can expect to look like shit on stage.

I usually take time off each year. And I take precautionary measures to make sure my health stays on track. Throughout the year, on and off cycle, I get regular blood work done to make sure my levels are in range.
With private doctors you can pay for any testing without questions being asked. Once you build a relationship with a doctor, you can be very straightforward with him about what you do. Then you can be monitored accordingly throughout the cycles.
Most of the top pros have doctors that are trustworthy. Take into consideration they've been doing this for many years. Over time they eventually find a good doctor who understands what they do and works with them, not against them.
I've been fortunate enough not to have any serious health issues. When blood tests are taken during a heavy cycle, the liver and kidney values can sometimes come back out of range. But after my PCT and after I drop the orals, everything comes back to normal within a few weeks.

*Recipe for Disaster
Emergency* The only people who I've seen suffer from serious health issues are combining steroids with recreational drug use or narcotic painkillers. It's a recipe for disaster.
Usually if they're taking juice and being smart about it, they won't have major issues. Genetic factors may also make them predisposed to certain health issues but this will happen regardless of their steroid use.
I think any steroid – or any other drug for that matter – can put you at risk if it's abused. That being said, if I had to pick one area that can get competitive bodybuilders into trouble it's diuretics. When you get close to a professional level show, the body is already in a vulnerable state at that point.
But people take diuretics for years for blood pressure purposes without any issue. If the drugs are being used intelligently then any risk can be avoided. The only problem is when they're abused and overused before a show.
Insulin is very dangerous if the bodybuilder is uneducated. If you really know what you're doing, you can use it safely. But if you're using it for extended amounts of time and not following appropriate protocols you can run into fatal issues.
If you don't know what you're doing and you take too much you can actually die, but it's not the actual drug that's dangerous – it's the uneducated use.

*Bodybuilders "Dying of Steroid Use"*It does not happen. This is a big misconception and the most moronic thing I've ever heard.

The media likes to blow up stories like this and blame steroids immediately, without any kind of investigation into the subject. The people who are writing these stories have no educational background in sport. There has yet to be any kind of proof that the reason for death was purely from steroid use.

*Related:  Steroids: The Birth of a Demon*
Then again, when you look at the government officials who made prohormones illegal, it just goes to show you the kind of idiots who are making the decisions about our lives.
Of course, there are stupid people out there. I knew a bodybuilder taking 36 IU of GH every day, up to 5-6 grams of oils every week, and 100 IU of insulin everyday. Those are crazy amounts – very extreme.
I honestly think the dumbest thing bodybuilders can do is go out on the weekend and abuse recreation drugs while on a cycle. It puts them at a huge risk for health issues.

*The Price of Being Juiced
Cash* Bodybuilding isn't exactly a sport people get into if they want to make money. It's not the NFL unfortunately.
In most cases, a pro bodybuilder could spend more on a competition cycle than he or she can win at the show! I compete in bodybuilding because I love the sport; it's not for fame or fortune.
As a professional bodybuilder, I've spent $20,000 for 16 weeks. This was my most expensive cycle and it was mostly due to the GH for this particular run.
Somewhere in the range of $8,000 to $15,000 would be more typical for someone at my level. It all depends on the price of GH. I get mine from the pharmacy so it's always pricey.

*A Pro Bodybuilder's Cycle
Biceps* So what do top bodybuilder's use and how much? I'll tell you.
Just keep in mind that this is not a "how to" or a prescription, just an honest look at what's really being used by pros. An actual cycle is very individual and should be changed according to individual needs.

16-Week Cycle: General Usage
1.Cut long esters at 6-8 weeks out and switch to short-acting compounds.
2.Increase anti-estrogens as the show get closer in order to get harder and dryer. This is where a lot of people fail because of lack of knowledge on the subject.
3.Testosterone should be cut anywhere between 2-4 weeks out. Some people can get away with going all the way to the show but it really depends on the person. If they're going for a very hard and dry look, then likely they'll cut it earlier.
4.Make sure supplementation is on target during the cycle to protect your health. I use liver support supplements, Flameout, Curcumin, etc.
5.Simplicity is the key; a cycle doesn't need to be fancy. If a bodybuilder is not advanced or experienced – and most who think they are actually aren't! – he should go with a lower dosage.

16-Week Sample Cycle: Moderate to High Dosage
Steroids 
This is an example of a common pro-bodybuilder cycle. It's something I've done before and I do not recommend this for anyone!

1-10 Testosterone Enanthate , 750mg a week (1000-1200mg advanced)
1-10 EQ, 800mg a week (1000mg advanced)
1-10 Tren E, 600mg/week (800mg advanced)
1-8  D-Bol, 50mg every day (up to 100mg advanced)
10-16 100mg Testosterone prop EOD (100mg ED advanced)
10-16 100mg Trenbolone Acetate EOD (75-100mg ED advanced)
10-16 100mg Masteron propionate EOD (100mg ED advanced)
10-16 50mg Winstrol or Anavar ED (sometime I do both)
8-16 Start T3 at 25mcg ED and taper up as needed.
12-16 Halotestin , start at 20mg ED and increase by 10mg every week (not a good choice for those who aren't mentally strong.)

Pharmaceutical GH 6-12 IU ED for the whole cycle (If people can afford more then the sky is the limit. I know guys who've gone up to 30 IU but this is rare.)
Insulin For advanced lifters only! 5-10 IU pre-workout followed by drinking Plazma™ right away. This is a moderate dosage, a lot of guys are using much more.

When to cut insulin is very individual and depends on conditioning, water retention and the amount of carbs the bodybuilder is eating. It could be run straight through or cut out in the weeks prior to the show and possibly reintroduced later on.

Clenbuterol is on option starting at 6-8 weeks out. Most start low, 20-40mcg.

*Anti-Estrogens*

Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ): 20mg ED for the whole cycle, taper up if needed starting at 6 weeks out.

Arimidex for the whole cycle starting at 1mg EOD and taper up as needed from 6 weeks out.

Provironstarting at 8 weeks out at 25mg ED and taper up as the show gets closer, up to 100mg ED.

Note: This doesn't cover the last week. The peak week is very complicated and not easily generalized so I didn't include it.

Anyone doing a cycle like this is very advanced and knows that the final week will change from show to show. There's no set plan for it. If someone gives you a set plan for your last week without looking you over and making changes based on how you look, he's an idiot.

Best Tip for Gaining in the Off Season
Humalog and Plazma combination: 5-10 IU 10 minutes pre-workout followed by 2-3 servings of Plazma. (Not for beginners!)

----------


## Joco71

This is a great thread!! I always wondered about these things, I think you need to be bat shit crazy to put that much gear in your body. I understand both views of Marcus, TR and Metal I think its a crap shoot. For one there is a huge difference in taking 500mgs a week of test which is common for most gym rats doing gear. But to start taking 2 or 3 compounds running 2 or 3 grams a week. I just don't see it among regular guys not to mention the money and risk involved. The fear of the unknown I think would scare most. If it doesn't it should!!

----------


## tice1212

Thanks admin! Guys that's the link admin put up.

----------


## Metalject

> This is a great thread!! I always wondered about these things, I think you need to be bat shit crazy to put that much gear in your body. I understand both views of Marcus, TR and Metal I think its a crap shoot. For one there is a huge difference in taking 500mgs a week of test which is common for most gym rats doing gear. But to start taking 2 or 3 compounds running 2 or 3 grams a week. I just don't see it among regular guys not to mention the money and risk involved. The fear of the unknown I think would scare most. If it doesn't it should!!


Risk is an important word to consider and measure, but that's true with a lot of things in life. In business, most are never hugely successful because they are too scared to take a risk. Most people want a decent paying job with as many benefits as they can get, and while they may often do well with that they're never going to be truly rich. Then there are those few who take the big risk, many fail and some succeed. Big gear use is no different, in my opinion. There are risk, the reward for taking the risk isn't worth the risk to most. For some it is worth it. For those that take it, the reward won't be that great, they may even fail, but some won't. That's just life.

----------


## SOL!D5NAK3

> Most pro bodybuilders take one of two approaches:
> 
> 1. Take a lot of everything and then come off everything for a short time. A lot of guys do this, more than seems to be commonly thought. And by take nothing, I mean take nothing. Most won't train during this phase either. Definitely a better option than option two.
> 
> 2. Take a lot of everything and then take a lower dose of testosterone but still a high dose.
> 
> That's pretty much it.


how long they will stay off? a month ? and after that they get back on every thing or just test ?

i read somewhere that phil heath grows into a show like this, same as kevin levrone.

----------


## Far from massive

I think that its going to be really hard to see what the affects of huge amounts of steroid use over the long term due to all the other factors at play. 

On top of the AAS most of these guys are also using huge amounts of Slin, Growth, Thermogenic's, Diuretics, Serm's, Sarm's etc. then on top of that you have huge amounts of protein being ingested year round, severe dieting pre-contest, and often severe strain on the heart due to heavy squats. I am sure I have missed a bunch of other factors but clearly there way to many other lifestyle factors to allow us to blame steroids alone.

----------


## < <Samson> >

> I think that its going to be really hard to see what the affects of huge amounts of steroid use over the long term due to all the other factors at play.


This is how it is with just about every type of use - especially nower days

People use everything under the sun - so one thing isn't to blame 


Juice is the same - people are on so much shit as time passes you can't really determine what did what - or if something caused a long term contradiction with something else

----------

