# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > DIET AND NUTRITION >  The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....

## **TOP**

This is one of the best articles i have read that breaks down the CKD in a layman's terms fashion. Hope it sheds some light,ive been getting alot of pms about this and hopefully it will help others understand the Ketogenic Diet...TOP




*Bodybuilding Cyclic Ketogenic Diet
by by Ed Sturm* This article is being written for those who are either only remotely familiar and totally unfamiliar with ketogenic dieting. The information provided here is based solely upon my own personal experiences as well as those of my wife. There are no references from medical journals or mentions of specific case studies. This is simply a real life testimony of what my wife and I have experienced with regards to ketogenic dieting. 

*What is a Ketogenic Diet?* 

For starters, ketotenic dieting is based upon the removal of nearly all carbohydrates from one's diet for a certain period of time. In the absence of carbohydrates, the body will resort to stored fat as it's primary fuel source. Stored fat is broken down into ketones which the body then uses for energy. In order to enter this state of ketosis, one's liver glycogen must be emptied. Ingested carbohydrates are stored in the liver as glycogen, as well as in the muscles. When the liver is depleted of glycogen, a state of ketosis is achieved. Ketones are a by-product of fat burning, therefore while in a state of ketosis, the body is burning stored fat as it's main source of fuel. I'll bypass the explanation as to why this is such a positive occurrence. 

The object of a ketogenic diet is to deplete the liver of it's glycogen stores as quickly as possible so that fat burning occurs. This is done by severely restricting carbohydrates and eating only sources of proteins and fats. On a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (CKD) carbohydrate restriction lasts for a total of 5-6 days at which time a 1-2 day carbohydrate loading phase begins. The CKD is essentially the Ketogenic Diet for weightlifters, with the carbohydrate loading phase designed to replenish Muscle Glycogen stores so that adequate weight training may occur during the following week. 

Many people have brought up the issue that a low carbohydrate diet will cause lethargy and weakness. These people were not mentally strong enough to make it through the first few days until they reached a state of ketosis so they experienced the basic lethargy typically associated with low carb diets. They also did not replace any of the missing calories with fat which caused them to feel miserable due to a lack of adequate calories. They didn't give themselves or the diet a chance to adapt. Just like with anything else, there is a period of adaptation. 

This is not a low carbohydrate diet. It is essentially a NO Carbohydrate diet. While on a LOW carbohydrate diet, enough carbs are always eaten to avoid entering into a state of ketosis but not enough carbs or total calories to maintain adequate energy levels. Dropping the carbohydrate count further and raising the fat calories will allow the body to enter ketosis and use ketones, or stored fat as fuel. While in a state of ketosis, one feels energetic and does not experience the general lethargy found with basic LOW carbohydrate diets. Ketones also enable one to maintain regulated insulin levels throughout the day which again will cause one to feel energetic. Below we can see the difference between a basic low carb diet and the Ketogeinc Diet. 

*Basic LOW Carb Diet:* 
weakness 
lethargy 
low insulin levels 
constant hunger 
moderate fat burning 
muscle loss 
low fat intake 
excessively low total calories 
*Ketogenic Diet:* 

energy 
workout intensity 
feelings of well-being 
full and satisfied 
high fat intake 
high level of fat burning 
minimal muscle loss 
total calories no more than 500 below maintenance 
Clearly it is obvious which diet is more beneficial as far as fat burning, retaining muscle and general feelings of well being. Plus, with the ketogenic diet, you actually get to eat more food. 

*How it Works* 

Now don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to "sell" anyone on a ketogenic diet and there is no product we are pushing here. This article is simply to give people another option; one that my wife and I have had a tremendous amount of success with. Ketogenic dieting is not easy as eliminating carbohydrates from one's daily eating habits is quite difficult. It requires structure, planning and dedication. Many foods are carbohydrate laden that the average person is not even aware of such as fruits and condiments. Basically, on a ketogenic diet one eats meat and fish all day long. It does have it's advantages though as normally restricted foods such as steak, whole eggs, pork chops, pork skins, sausages, meatloaf, burgers (without the bun of course) and salmon are not only permitted, but they are encouraged. 

It is quite simple to slip up without even knowing it on this diet. First, understand that even a minimal amount of carbohydrates will shift your body right out of the ketosis/fat burning mode. This is a diet that requires strict attention to detail and absolutely NO cheating during the week. The cheating will come soon enough and plenty enough on the weekends. There is no such thing as just a little bite of that bagel of just one cookie. This diet works absolute wonders as far as fat burning goes but it must be done properly or results will be minimal at best. 

*Carb Depletion* 

During the carbohydrate depletion phase (during the week) carbohydrate foods such as fruit, breads, grains, candies, cookies, deserts, catsup, dressings, cereals, etc., etc. are not permitted at all. One must check the label of everything to ensure that there are no carbs. The key is to keep the daily carb count of 20-40 per day. Some people even require less than 20 to achieve ketosis. This basically allows you a total of roughly 4-8 grams of carbohydrates per meal which would preferably come in the form of green vegetables. Watch the dressings as they all have carbohydrates with the exception of vinegar. The only condiments that you can be safe with are mustard and regular, whole mayonnaise. (not low fat or light) 

*Workouts* 

While on a CKD, one must tailor their workouts to center around the diet. The carb depletion would begin on Monday and between Monday-Wednesday, the entire body would be trained with weights. In other words, condense the workouts so that they are completed by Wednesday. This will exhaust both your liver glycogen as well as your muscle glycogen. Cardio may continue to be done all week. At the end of the week, one would perform a grueling full body weight training session after which time the carb loading would begin. 

*Carb Loading* 

The carbohydrate loading may last anywhere between 12-36 hours although I feel it is best to minimize it to 12-18 hours. It consists of basically a full day of cheating (but there are rules). You need to consume carbohydrates in each meal ranging from 40-120, depending upon the person. The protein stays high but fats must be limited or the total calories will be too high and new fat will be stored. The idea is refill muscle glycogen so that workouts may be performed with some amount of intensity the following week. Fruits are to be avoided as fructose will only refill liver glycogen which will prevent ketosis from being reestablished until later in the week. After the carb load is complete, the depletion phase begins again until the next weekend. During the carb load period, any carbs may be eaten so long as the fat is kept moderately low and there is no fructose (fruit sugar) consumed. 

*Results* 

While on a CKD, it is quite common for users to experience total fat loss of up to 2-3 pounds per week. Due to the carbohydrate cycling and manipulation, one will experience weight fluctuations ranging from 2-10 pounds during the carb loading phase. Personally, I went from 10% body fat to 5% in 8 weeks with minimal muscle loss while my wife went from 20% to 15% in an astonishing five weeks. The keys are not cheating at all during the week, knowing the nutritional content of the foods you eat, maintaining structure and not overdoing it on the weekends. 

This article is intended to supply the reader with a basic introduction to the principles of ketogenic dieting. There is much more information available and I strongly suggest that prior to starting a diet of this sort, the reader purchase one of the following books listed below which will shed more light upon the subject. There are additional variables such as vitamin and supplement information, fiber consumption, additional ketogenic aids and potential dangers which need to be addressed prior to beginning a ketogenic diet. 

1) The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald 

2) Body Opus by Dan Duchaine 

3) New Diet Revolution by Dr. Atkins 

This article is not meant to act as or replace the advice of a medical professional. Many medical professionals do not share the belief that ketogenic diets are safe and effective. Please visit with your Doctor prior to beginning any diet program.

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## mg1228

good post---put my wife on this diet after u emailed me the book---she consume 25-30 carbs a day in the form of broccoli--havnt checked her bf but she lost 10lb in 9 days--she has been on it 2 weeks monday---weight loss has slowed somewhat---most of her cals are lean protein and natty pb and udos oil---she doesnt train weights but she does do cardio 5 days a week-----my question is should she incorporate a re-feed day now that the weightloss has slowed----and if so when should she do this and would it b for 1 day instead of the 2 days----thanks TOP

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## **TOP**

MG yes she does need a refeed! let her do it friday evening-saturday night to replenish glycogen

"I feel it is best to minimize it to 12-18 hours. It consists of basically a full day of cheating (but there are rules). You need to consume carbohydrates in each meal ranging from 40-120, depending upon the person. The protein stays high but fats must be limited or the total calories will be too high and new fat will be stored. The idea is refill muscle glycogen so that workouts may be performed with some amount of intensity the following week. Fruits are to be avoided as fructose will only refill liver glycogen which will prevent ketosis from being reestablished until later in the week. After the carb load is complete, the depletion phase begins again until the next weekend. During the carb load period, any carbs may be eaten so long as the fat is kept moderately low and there is no fructose (fruit sugar) consumed. "

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## mg1228

Hey Top. She only does cardio. No weights. Does this matter

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## mg1228

also lets see some pics...............

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## **TOP**

She NEEDS to weight train. This helps allow muscle glycogen depletion. Theoretically women shouldnt train any different than men. My wife trains the same way i do! Also with the more muscle she has the more calories she will burn in the long run. 

Pics will be soon, it should be interesting!!!

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## mg1228

> She NEEDS to weight train. This helps allow muscle glycogen depletion. Theoretically women shouldnt train any different than men. My wife trains the same way i do! Also with the more muscle she has the more calories she will burn in the long run. 
> 
> Pics will be soon, it should be interesting!!!


yea i know she should---but she wont----we did p90x together and she didnt like the way her muscles grew even though it was high intensity and low weight high reps..they prob didnt grow but she said that it made em thick or somethin---trust me ive told her----so now thats out of the way---what do u think about the re-feed if shes only doin cardio-----glycogen levels should still b depleted after 3 weeks of 25-30gr carbs a day--plus the 45 min cardio---keep in mind---she only wants to lose another 10lb--------she aint into it the most of us are

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## **TOP**

You have a PM sir!

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## Damienm05

Great post Top! I do have a question however. A buddy of mine is extremely interested in starting a keto diet to drop body fat and he's just begun a cycle. He's impatient (started a cycle at 18% bf) but pretty dedicated. I've urged him not to pursue a keto diet but I may as well ask an expert -

ARE SUBSTANTIAL LBM GAINS POSSIBLE WITH THIS TYPE OF DIET?!

I've never been able to make gains on keto diets but I've never followed them this precisely or put enough emphasis on refeeds. I may forward him this post.

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## Machdiesel

I have a question about the workouts? I Use A Mon-wed-Fri push pull/pull legs routine, so what you are saying is to do these workouts Mon-Tue-Wed, then do cardio Thurs Fri, and on saturday do a Full body workout???

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## Damienm05

Basically, you want to 100% deplete your stored glycogen stores before your refeed for 2 basic reasons. 1- to maximize fat loss in those days leading up to the refeed. 2- to maximize effectiveness of the refeed and ensure that none of the consumed carbs spill over into fat stores on said day.

Think of the mon-wedns split like this: back/chest, legs/shoulders, arms... then when you've literally burned through your stored glycogen on those intense workouts, you do cardio thurs, friday. The cardio will be a 100% more effective fat loss tool than if u had any sugar/glycogen to burn. I imagine the logic behind the full-body workout the day before the refeed is simply to take fat loss over the top towards the 3-4 lb. range. Plus, you'll likely be in ketosis by this point so you'll have some energy for it. Don't expect to be stronger though.

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## **TOP**

> Great post Top! I do have a question however. A buddy of mine is extremely interested in starting a keto diet to drop body fat WHICH I T WILL DO!and he's just begun a cycle WHICH TEST HAS BEEN PROVEN TO HELP STORE GLYCOGEN BETTER (1) . He's impatient (started a cycle at 18% bf) but pretty dedicated YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER!. I've urged him not to pursue a keto diet but I may as well ask an expert -WHY NOT?
> 
> ARE SUBSTANTIAL LBM GAINS POSSIBLE WITH THIS TYPE OF DIET?!
> YES/NO iTS BEEN PROVEN THAT KETO DIETS HELP LOSE BF WHILE MAINTAING MUSCLE MASS OR AT LEAST RETAINING THE MOST MASS POSSIBLE BUT IF HE IS STILL 18%BF HE SHOULD BE RESTRICTING CALORIES TO LOSE HIS BF,AND WITH HIM ON GEAR THAT WILL HELP EVEN MORE.
> 
> AS FAR AS BUILDING NEW LBM ON A CALORIE RESTRICTED DIET, I DOUBT IT.
> 
> KNOW IF HE WERE TO GET HIS BF LOWER TO A REASONABLE NUMBER(8-12) THEN I WOULD SAY YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO BUILD NEW MUSCLE BUT ONLY BY INCREASING CALORIES WHILE STAYING ON THE KETO DIET. dOES THIS MAKE SENSE?
> I've never been able to make gains on keto diets but I've never followed them this precisely or put enough emphasis on refeeds. WELL WHAT WERE YOU DOING,HOW MANY CALS WERE YOU INTAKING WHAT WAS THE REFEED LIKE ETC..ETC...I may forward him this post.


Iv seen alot of guys think that they are growing LBM and are only adding water or bf to themselves,to build LBM it takes a while even with gear its not a magic potion. As you know im natural, but have been around the sauce seen for a while and also have trained guys on it. What we do is a marathon not a sprint. Hope this helps...TOP


(1) http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...tract/51/4/293

This was the only reference i could find at the moment,i have to piss!!

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## Damienm05

That helps a lot actually man. Thank you.

As for my own experience with Keto diets; my cals were quite high. How could they not be?! I look for any excuse to stuff my face with avocados, smoked salmon, and chia seed concoctions. I think I always just skimped on the refeed. I'd only do it 1 day per week and only for my first few meals of said day. For example meals 1-4 would contain 80 grams of complex carbs and then I'd taper off to pro/fat nutrition. In retrospect, i see why I always felt like I was losing strength. 

On another note, my own cycle is coming to a close here pretty soon and then I'm gonna eat like crazy throughout my PCT phase to ensure maintenance of gains. If I end up getting back over 10% bf, which i foresee as likely during that time; I'll definitely try this method with serious refeeds.

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## **TOP**

In order to maintain strength the carb load is a must~! My first four meals at the beginning of my carb load are 3360 calories and in the whole of the carb load i can reach up to 10,000 cals. So if your gonna do CKD expect to eat like you should and you should expect to see progress like you will!...TOP

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## Damienm05

> In order to maintain strength the carb load is a must~! My first four meals at the beginning of my carb load are 3360 calories and in the whole of the carb load i can reach up to 10,000 cals. So if your gonna do CKD expect to eat like you should and you should expect to see progress like you will!...TOP


Well said. Are all those cals via carb/pro or do you still eat fats as you normally would mon-fri?

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## **TOP**

> Well said. Are all those cals via carb/pro or do you still eat fats as you normally would mon-fri?


mostly carbs, mod pro, low-low fat!

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## 3day

Hey TOP can you post your typical diet plan while on CKD for a week?Or if you have it somewhere gimme the link.The only thing im lacking at the moment is a good mixture of what foods to eat.And honestly i'd like too see the timing of the carb load from someone who has first hand experience.

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## **TOP**

> Hey TOP can you post your typical diet plan while on CKD for a week?Or if you have it somewhere gimme the link.The only thing im lacking at the moment is a good mixture of what foods to eat.And honestly i'd like too see the timing of the carb load from someone who has first hand experience.


You also have a PM, there is a book you will like if you read...TOP

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## binsser

top any chance i can have a look at this book m8 gets abit frustrating at times i diet to get rid of that lasrt bit of body fat and end up losing muscle as well does my head in m8 cant i ripp upwith no muscle loss????

sry not high jacking bud lol!

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## americanoak

so mon-wed do all body parts

friday do a full body along with cardio and cardio the day before?

then carb load for saturday and sunday...? or just saturday? and if just saturday what do nyou do on sunday?

also im guessing you dont workout on sat and sun?

and is it ok to do cardio anyday mon-fri, or even on sat and sun?

---

also what about diet products..? the ones with 0 carbs, fat protein, everything

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## **TOP**

> top any chance i can have a look at this book m8 gets abit frustrating at times i diet to get rid of that lasrt bit of body fat and end up losing muscle as well does my head in m8 cant i ripp upwith no muscle loss????
> sry not high jacking bud lol!


what??????

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## **TOP**

> so mon-wed do all body parts BREAK THEM UP IN A SPLIT FASHION,LIKE MON-CHEST SHO TRIS,TUES LEGS,WED BACK AND BIS
> 
> friday do a full body along with cardio and cardio the day before? NO CARDIO FRIDAY,UNLESS YOU WANNA DO IT IN THE AM MON-THUR CARDIO FINE..AM AND PWO,OR JUST CARDIO ANYTIME.
> then carb load for saturday and sunday...? or just saturday? and if just saturday what do nyou do on sunday? THE CARB LOAD STARTS RIGHT AFTER THE FRIDAY FULL BODY WORKOUT AND SHOULD GO FRI-SATURDAY TILL BED.
> 
> also im guessing you dont workout on sat and sun? THERE ARE VARIATIONS THAT YOU CAN WORKOUT ON THE CARB DAY(LYLE MCDONALD ULTIMATE DIET 2 DOES THIS) I PERSONALLY DONT DO THAT.
> 
> and is it ok to do cardio anyday mon-fri, or even on sat and sun? YOU CAN DO CARDIO MON-FRI,I DONT DO CARDIO WHILE CARB LOADING



My typical friday looks like this deplete workout,pwo 150grams maltodextrin for meals 1,2,3,4 then 100grams of carbsfor meals5,6,7,8, it gradually decreases down from simple to more complex like oatmeal,bagels sweet potato fries etc..,my fats stay very low,my protein is 30% maybe and the rest are all carbs. It may sound fun but it can be a pain in the ass.I also dont stop eating throughout the night so friday its deplete,eat at 4pm,6pm,8pm,10pm,midnight,2am,4am,6am,8ametc...... This is how i do it,i like it this way it allows me to cut my carb load in half due to me eating at night. 

Also alot of thanks to mikexxl for the corn flakes idea!!

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## Twist

> She NEEDS to weight train. This helps allow muscle glycogen depletion. Theoretically women shouldnt train any different than men. My wife trains the same way i do! Also with the more muscle she has the more calories she will burn in the long run. 
> 
> Pics will be soon, it should be interesting!!!


Great posts and great responses in this thread! Especially the one above! Finally god. Great Job TOP, keep them coming

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## americanoak

hmmmm so you start your carb load after your full body workout on friday? what do you do the rest of sat and sunday?

also how do diet produects fit into this, the 0 protien, fat, and carb products

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## **TOP**

> hmmmm so you start your carb load after your full body workout on friday? yes what do you do the rest of sat and sunday? all day sat i have carbs every 2 hours into sunday around 4pm,after that i switch back to keto and get ready for the mon workout,which you will find strenght goes through the roof due to glycogen supercompensation.
> 
> Also how do diet produects fit into this, the 0 protien, fat, and carb products define diet products? Give me an example what are you wanting to take?


top~

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## americanoak

ok thanks alot. 

By diet products i mean like... diet soda, diet food that has no calories etc. like foods that should have carbs but dont anymore cause they are made diet

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## americanoak

also what should i do if i dont want to eat all through the night (or.. extremly early sat morning like u said 2 am 4 am etc.) and start when i wake up around 9

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## MuscleScience

Ok so is the only difference between this and a regular keto diet we have all seen is that you take in 10,000 calories and mostly in the form of carbs on the carb up day?

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## **TOP**

> also what should i do if i dont want to eat all through the night (or.. extremly early sat morning like u said 2 am 4 am etc.) and start when i wake up around 9


Diet drinks are fine but i would say drink 1-2 gallons of water daily first and foremost!!

If you dont wanna eat throughout the night thats fine also ive seen where people have not eaten through the night and still had very simular results.

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## **TOP**

> Ok so is the only difference between this and a regular keto diet we have all seen is that you take in 10,000 calories and mostly in the form of carbs on the carb up day?


Yep pretty much,staying in ketosis for the majority of people seems to make them weaker opposed to having a carb load before the workout week. Also im not saying everyone needs 10k either thats just what it is for me some will have higher some will have lower!..TOP

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## americanoak

great, so i think i have everything set, i start loading after my workout on friday, all the way through saturday untill a little bit into sunday then start keto again

that sound right? if im only saposed to load for 12-18 hours is this like total time awake and this is minus the time i am sleeping early sat morning and the night going into sunday? so im carbing a little on friday, all sat, little on sunday

---

also what do you eat after a workout if u dont have carbs? this isnt bad?

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## JR G lady

Thanks for the post TOPS! very imformational. I sent u a pm

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## **TOP**

> Thanks for the post TOPS! very imformational. I sent u a pm


Better try again cuz i didnt get it!

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## firsttimer22

i heard keto should only be used for obese people trying to cut weight, not someone who is already around the 12%bf mark, is this true?

if its not true, then why wouldnt this just be the CUT DIET sticky that many should follow?

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## Twist

> i heard keto should only be used for obese people trying to cut weight, not someone who is already around the 12%bf mark, is this true?
> 
> if its not true, then why wouldnt this just be the CUT DIET sticky that many should follow?


not only be used. But I don't recommend under 12%bf that's for sure. But most people on here are not below 12... 

also the stickies suck for the most part. they need an overhaul

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## **TOP**

> i heard keto should only be used for obese people trying to cut weight, not someone who is already around the 12%bf mark, is this true?
> 
> if its not true, then why wouldnt this just be the CUT DIET sticky that many should follow?


I have to disagree with TWIST.Actually ive seen this diet get people in the single digits. Its not a normal keto diet ,there are a few different keto diets KETO WHICH IS SKD,TKD,CKD, and im sure there are more.So to say KETO is only for people over x amount of bodyfat is debatable,beacause there are many ways to run this My opinion is that it would work just as good for an obese person as it would for someone trying to get into single digits. The best ckd books that i know of are mentioned in the article :The Bodyopus,And The Anabolic Diet, these were written by a diet "GURU" Dan Duchaine and the second was written by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale google both of these people and you will find some interesting stuff on them!...TOP

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## D7M

^Agreed with TOP. It doesn't matter what your bf is, really. 

If it's done right, you'll loose fat without loosing much, if any, LBM.

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## mg1228

hey TOP how bout posting ur wifes diet or pm me if u will kind sir

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## baddgsx

Thanks TOP , this info is what i definetely needed. Just finished bulking up and want to get rid of my lower belly fat. Couple questions if you can help me out. 

Whats the formula for calculating how much good fat is needed per 1lb of body weight?

Also, Ive been eating lean chicken, salmon, and egg whites for protein. For fats ive been just taking 2-3 tablespoons of flax seed oil. Can i eat pepperoni? Are fats in pepperoni acceptable as good fats to get as lean as you?

Can you pm me your diet eating plan too?

My goal is to get into the single digits. 
5'9" 
204lbs
i dont know my correct body fat percentage but i will try to find out tomarro. I dont want to make up a number.

Thanks , 
Chris

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## firsttimer22

so top, 

the keto you posted, if followed correctly, could yeild single digit body fat numbers?

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## baddgsx

TWIST - sick abs man. Genetically placed perfectly!

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## **TOP**

> so top, 
> 
> the keto you posted, if followed correctly, could yeild single digit body fat numbers?


YES, but so will a 40/40/20 and alot of other diets out there. Im not trying to say this is the only diet that works. I happen to also like 40/40/20. Although i think this is one of the best for muscle preservation and also it helps people feal like they are cheating so mentally it helps also.

This diet has also been around for a very long long time.

Also they put people on KETO diets that have epileptic seizures,just an interesting bonus!

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## **TOP**

> thanks top , this info is what i definetely needed. Just finished bulking up and want to get rid of my lower belly fat. Couple questions if you can help me out. 
> 
> Whats the formula for calculating how much good fat is needed per 1lb of body weight?the best thing to do is try and make fat 65-70% of your daily cals sun-thurs with protein being25-30%
> 
> also, ive been eating lean chicken, salmon, and egg whites for protein. For fats ive been just taking 2-3 tablespoons of flax seed oil. Can i eat pepperoni? Are fats in pepperoni acceptable as good fats to get as lean as you? yes pepperoni is fine so is summer sausage
> 
> can you pm me your diet eating plan too? anything thats on a keto grocery list!
> my goal is to get into the single digits. 
> 5'9" 
> ...


top~

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## FireGuy

> YES, *but so will a 40/40/20 and alot of other diets out there*. Im not trying to say this is the only diet that works. I happen to also like 40/40/20. Although i think this is one of the best for muscle preservation and also it helps people feal like they are cheating so mentally it helps also.
> 
> This diet has also been around for a very long long time.
> 
> Also they put people on KETO diets that have epileptic seizures,just an interesting bonus!


Glad you inserted this caveat. I see so many threads lately where people think you have to do a keto diet to get lean. 4-6% bodyfat is still very attainable with a moderate carb diet.

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## **TOP**

O one thing that the article didnt mention ,that i do and should everyone wanting to experiment with this, is to LOAD CREATINE WITH THE CARB LOAD!! Creatine needs a transport system and you may as well take the advantage to give it a free ride along with your bagels and captain crunch!

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## baddgsx

heres my pics , what is my body fat percentage? pics were taken just now using my iphone and i was flexing. Ive never been in the single digits and that is my goal for the summer. 

Chris

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## edgarr

> O one thing that the article didnt mention ,that i do and should everyone wanting to experiment with this, is to LOAD CREATINE WITH THE CARB LOAD!! Creatine needs a transport system and you may as well take the advantage to give it a free ride along with your bagels and captain crunch!


Just so I understand, you are only taking the creatine on your load days or you take it everyday but increase it on the carb load days??

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## **TOP**

^I take it only on my carb load days around 3-5 grams with each 2 hour meal...TOP

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## **TOP**

The formula for the carb load is also debatable, but from what ive seen most do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say *150* you divide that by* 2.2* which =*68*/ * 68* multiplied by "we will say *14*" =*952* carbs divide by 24 hours which is *12* meals would be *79* carbs per meal.

Like i said there are many variations of the carb load but this is probably the easiest. So you can see how your cals will skyrocket depending on your lean body mass,this is why i said mine can reach over 10,000 in a period/ 952 carbs by4=3808cals just from carbs alone another 20-30 %from protein and the rest from fat and you have a a loaded weapon!!

If this write up confuses you ill try to help with the formula better but its looks easy as i can get it!




*CARB LOAD RULES*


*STAGE 1 iNITIAL 24 HOURS*
Feedings-12
carbs-16x lean bodyweight in kg
Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)

*Meal 1-4* -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.

*MEALS 5-8*-These should be liquid carbs and solid high glycemic carbs(such as cornflakes) Eat 1.5 g of carbsper kg of lean bodyweight at each meal

*Meal 9-12*-Finally you get to eat some real food eat.5grams of solid starches and some liquid carbs per kg of lbm at each meal

*STAGE2*
Feedings-12
Type-Mixed,primarily starches

*MEAL1-4*-Each meal 1gram carbs per kg of lbm SINCE INSULIN SENSETIVITY IS DECLINING YOU SHOULD EAT MORE SOLID CARBS AND PROTEINS!

*MEAL5-8*-Eat .75 grams of carbs per lbm of normal food (rice,pasta,potatoes)

*MEAL9-12*-.5GRAMS OF CARBS. Since you want to begin lowering blood glucose before you begin another week of carb depletion,you should eat just the opposite of what you would expect! Go back tosimple liquid carbs and proteins.Basically you want a sugar crash to get you into low blood sugar. Yes insulin ishigher but the actual amount of carbs per meal is quite low.

TRY YOUR BEST TO STAY AWAY FROM FRUCTOSE AND SUCROSE,THESE REFILL LIVER THE MOST AND THATS WILL IN TURN TAKE YOU LONGER TO DEPLETE YOUR STORAGE.

By following this formula everyone will hit there 16grams over the duration no matter what difference you have in LBM from the next guy. I hope this helps people with carb loading...TOP :Welcome:

----------


## baddgsx

i bought some ketostix at CVS today and checked it. It was the first time and i was kinda shaky and i pissed all over my hand. The strip was close to 80. That means im using fat as fuel right? Wonder how dark it will be tomarro. Did some grocery shopping today also and picked up food that i never thought id be eating. Cheddar cheese, 85/15 burgers ,tuna <-this i can understand) , mayo , butter.

Question , on the ketostix directions it says NOTE: if the test shows a moderate or large amount of ketone, call your doctor or diabetes educator.
Is there any thing bad that im not aware of by doing this diet? What type of people are watching ketones for other reasons? 

Thanks, 
Chris

----------


## **TOP**

^Diabetics can fall into something called Diabetic Ketoacidosis,if you arent diabetic you dont have to worry about it.Also the severity of the level of ketosis is irrelevant also if you are showing just a little bit that means you are in ketosis. But like ive said ketosis is just the side effect of a fat no carb diet dont lose sleep wondering if you are in ketosis or not,your body will burn fat always if the carbs are low long enough...TOP

----------


## americanoak

hey so im gonna test out the keto diet for two weeks starting monday i just have a few questions. The reason im doing it for two weaks is just to test it out, about 8 weeks from summer time i will start it up again. 

Anyway, I just have a couple questions...

1. whens the best day to come off a keto diet? and how should you go about upping your carbs back to normal?

2. how nessecary is it to have close to 1000 carbs over the carb load period? (im ~185lbs, but im guessing im already about 10,11%bf, so going by ur formula im guessing i should be around there) Im not very used to having high carbs, i usually only eat them in the morning and pre/post workout, and the rest of my meals are usually around 10-15 carbs.


3. When ketostix say you are in ketosis, this means you body IS using fat as its primary source of fuel?

I may have other questions.. but for now this is all i can think of

----------


## **TOP**

> hey so im gonna test out the keto diet for two weeks starting monday i just have a few questions. The reason im doing it for two weaks is just to test it out, about 8 weeks from summer time i will start it up again. 
> 
> Anyway, i just have a couple questions...
> 
> 1. Whens the best day to come off a keto diet? And how should you go about upping your carbs back to normal? whenever i assume,but if i had to say it would be after the carb load.2. How nessecary is it to have close to 1000 carbs over the carb load period? (im ~185lbs, but im guessing im already about 10,11%bf, so going by ur formula im guessing i should be around there) actually going by the formula you are exactly 888 carbs divided by lets say 12 meals thats 74 carbs.the whole point of the carb load is to achieve glycogen supercompensation. Im not very used to having high carbs, i usually only eat them in the morning and pre/post workout, and the rest of my meals are usually around 10-15 carbs. then it should be easier for you to adjust during the weekto the keto diet thats a plus
> 
> 3. When ketostix say you are in ketosis, this means you body is using fat as its primary source of fuel? yes in a nutshell
> 
> i may have other questions.. But for now this is all i can think of


top~

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## mg1228

> hey so im gonna test out the keto diet for two weeks starting monday i just have a few questions. The reason im doing it for two weaks is just to test it out, about 8 weeks from summer time i will start it up again. 
> 
> Anyway, I just have a couple questions...
> 
> 1. whens the best day to come off a keto diet? *and how should you go about upping your carbs back to normal?*
> 2. how nessecary is it to have close to 1000 carbs over the carb load period? (im ~185lbs, but im guessing im already about 10,11%bf, so going by ur formula im guessing i should be around there) Im not very used to having high carbs, i usually only eat them in the morning and pre/post workout, and the rest of my meals are usually around 10-15 carbs.
> 
> 
> 3. When ketostix say you are in ketosis, this means you body IS using fat as its primary source of fuel?
> ...


id like to know the answer to that one

----------


## americanoak

alright, thanks top.

The only one i am having trouble with is when to get ur carbs back to normal. I mean if you load up 900 carbs over two days i fee like having even one carb the next day i would wanna puke, also i dont wanna pack on the lbs as soon as the diet is done, even though i have a pretty decent diet to go back to after the keto. 

any suggestions when the best time would be? maybe cut carbs in half on the carb load since i wont be going into the keto diet the next week, or right after my full body workout on friday load up on carbs for the next couple meals of the day and then og back to the reg diet on sat untill i decide to start the keto diet again?

----------


## Failure

I read this somewhere and I don't know if it is completely true so correct me if I am wrong.

One thing that isn't mentioned in the original post is that if you eat too much protein your body will turn the protein into glycogen, knocking you out of Ketosis. So your macros have to be watched correct? 

The source:
http://www.davedraper.com/ketogenic-basics.html

----------


## **TOP**

> alright, thanks top.
> 
> The only one i am having trouble with is when to get ur carbs back to normal. I mean if you load up 900 carbs over two days i fee like having even one carb the next day i would wanna puke, also i dont wanna pack on the lbs as soon as the diet is done, even though i have a pretty decent diet to go back to after the keto. 
> 
> any suggestions when the best time would be? maybe cut carbs in half on the carb load since i wont be going into the keto diet the next week, or right after my full body workout on friday load up on carbs for the next couple meals of the day and then og back to the reg diet on sat untill i decide to start the keto diet again?


Do the carb load,finish it saturday,do 40/40/20 sunday. Its kinda ridiculous to think you will explode if you eat more carbs.Just train heavy the following week. Although doing this for 2 weeks isnt going to do much for you,thats actually the transition period,so dont be suprised if it feels like you have the flu!! Your body its trying to change from a glucose system to a fat burning system...TOP

----------


## **TOP**

> I read this somewhere and I don't know if it is completely true so correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> One thing that isn't mentioned in the original post is that if you eat too much protein your body will turn the protein into glycogen, knocking you out of Ketosis. So your macros have to be watched correct? 
> 
> The source:
> http://www.davedraper.com/ketogenic-basics.html


This is why i have stated to keep your fats 65-70%! But you will always have that jackass that wont listen and kling to his dear sweet protein and wont let it go because hes afraid that if he drops protein to low he will lose muscle! 

Protein can be converted to glycogen,but with the fat being high enough you wont have to worry about that because it will use the fat and spare the pro,does that make sense?

----------


## **TOP**

Just got a PM asking what the friday pre depletement menu looks like.Should i eat all the fat then start carbing or what?..Good question! Today is friday,the day of the depletement workout, wake up and eat just like you did thursday up until the workout after the workout the keto diet goes out the window and you start carbing!! so if its lunch time you will eat your keto food then you plan on working out at 2:30 you get done working out at 4immediately start carbing.And the reason for the depletement isnt just more glycogen deficit,its to also boost insulin sensitivity,this would be a great place to use your insulin shots if you had some!

Ive also seen where people will eat 2 peices or so of fruit to kick them out of ketosis and get there body to start burning glycogen again to further deplete those stores.

----------


## baddgsx

Hope this isnt a stupid question , its ok to still drink a gallon of water a day right?

----------


## **TOP**

> Hope this isnt a stupid question , its ok to still drink a gallon of water a day right?


There is no such thing as a stupid question!!

Water is actually more important in the carb load period,because it is estimated that every gram of glycogen stored is associated with about 2.7g of water. This is why watching the scale is pointless. I can weigh friday at 212lbs and by monday im 219lbs...TOP

----------


## edgarr

TOP, I workout M-F hitting one body part a day, I hit it very hard and heavy (always felt this worked best for me). I also work out in the am about 1 hour after meal one. I do HIIT cardo after my workout and this just gives me enough time to get to work. If I was to continue this would I want to start carb loading after my Friday workout??? I was thinking of staying on Keto all of Friday and then carb load Sat-Sun. Thanks

----------


## americanoak

so, my cal intake per day is ~1700 according to one of those calculatores or w.e. If I were to do 65% fat and 35% protein and drop one or the other down 1% for my very small amount of carbs through out the day it would end up like this:

1700 calories

65% fat = 1105 cal = 112g
35% protein = 595 cal = 149g

does this seem correct?
Also, say i dont follow that exactly... instead of 112g fat i have like 110 and instead of 149g protein i have like 170 will this mess everything up and the protein will turn to glycogen?

----------


## **TOP**

> top, i workout m-f hitting one body part a day, i hit it very hard and heavy (always felt this worked best for me). I also work out in the am about 1 hour after meal one. I do hiit cardo after my workout and this just gives me enough time to get to work. If i was to continue this would i want to start carb loading after my friday workout??? I was thinking of staying on keto all of friday and then carb load sat-sun. Thanks


that would be fine but you need to do a full body workout saturday morning. I dont recommend starting this carb load with out working out first!

----------


## **TOP**

> so, my cal intake per day is ~1700 according to one of those calculatores or w.e. If i were to do 65% fat and 35% protein and drop one or the other down 1% for my very small amount of carbs through out the day it would end up like this:
> 
> 1700 calories
> 
> 65% fat = 1105 cal = 112g
> 35% protein = 595 cal = 149g
> 
> does this seem correct?
> Also, say i dont follow that exactly... Instead of 112g fat i have like 110 and instead of 149g protein i have like 170 will this mess everything up and the protein will turn to glycogen?


whats your goal, Building phase? Is the reason you wanna bump protein to get more cals? If anything i would think you would want to reduce fat to 60% reduce pro to 30% and have the 10%left over to have carbs during the week,that would be roughly 40 carbs a day. What are you trying to do?

----------


## D7M

> that would be fine but you need to do a full body workout saturday morning. I dont recommend starting this carb load with out working out first!


I might have missed it, so just send me the link if I did, but why do you think it's necessary to work out before refeeding?





> TOP, I workout M-F hitting one body part a day, I hit it very hard and heavy (always felt this worked best for me). I also work out in the am about 1 hour after meal one. I do HIIT cardo after my workout and this just gives me enough time to get to work. If I was to continue this would I want to start carb loading after my Friday workout??? I was thinking of staying on Keto all of Friday and then carb load Sat-Sun. Thanks


^Also, regarding the above post, what is your take on a two day carb load/refeed?

----------


## **TOP**

> I might have missed it, so just send me the link if I did, but why do you think it's necessary to work out before refeeding?
> 
> The variation that i go by suggest that depleting prior to the carb load will increase insulin sensetivity,like we all know,and shuttle the nutrients to the worked area hintz the full body depletement,which also digs deeper into glycogen stores helping out with the future GLYCOGEN SUPERCOMPENSATION
> 
> 
> ^Also, regarding the above post, what is your take on a two day carb load/refeed?


Most of the carb loads ive seen have been done between 2-2.5 days depending on if you eat throughout the night. I do not suggest depleting,staying on keto for the rest of the day,then the following day carbing up. I have never seen a variation do that,it makes no sense. The 2 day carb up, refeed, whatever you wanna call it, is an average of what it takes people. In the book "BODYOPUS" the author suggest carbing friday around 4 in the afternoon to sunday around 4-6 in the afternoon eating every 2 hours throughout the night and also using glucose disposal agents(ALA,Vanadyl sulfate,chromium etc...)

That make sense Bodyguard?

----------


## americanoak

> whats your goal, Building phase? Is the reason you wanna bump protein to get more cals? If anything i would think you would want to reduce fat to 60% reduce pro to 30% and have the 10%left over to have carbs during the week,that would be roughly 40 carbs a day. What are you trying to do?


Well, the onyl reason im asking is because it would be difficult to measure out everything to fit into a 65/35 ratio of fat and protein. I wanted to know if going off a little bit of it like having 200g protein instead of 150 if it would turn to glycogen?

If so, then i will just have to suck it up and make sure i do it 100% correct.
Also, if i had 10% carbs which would equal out to about 40 would that be too many for the day? I was thinking about keeping it 30 or under. I am going to buy ketostix though just ot make sure im in ketosis.

I have pretty decent abs, however some lighting they are OK and other lighting they are pretty amazing.. im trying to make it so they look great in all different lighting, but i also want ot maintain my LBM or even increase it a little, but if i cant increase then def just maintain it because u do look bigger when ur cut even though u technically are smaller... or it looks that way to me anyway.

What I rly need explained ot me is if I weigh 185 lbs, say about 165 of it is LBM (that would be 11% bf ), what is the MAX protein i should have in the day? and what is the LEAST amount of fat i should have in the day?

----------


## americanoak

> In the book "BODYOPUS" the author suggest carbing friday around 4 in the afternoon to sunday around 4-6 in the afternoon eating every 2 hours throughout the night and *also using glucose disposal agents(ALA,Vanadyl sulfate,chromium etc*...)


What does that mean glucose disposal agents?

----------


## edgarr

> that would be fine but you need to do a full body workout saturday morning. I dont recommend starting this carb load with out working out first!


Sorry for all the questions just trying to learn, in the end this will take some trial and error to get the results I'm happy with but......The Sat morning full body workout, can I follow it with cardio or stay away from cardio? I use to do yoga on Sat, throw that out the window? Do I start my carb load my first meal after the workout or later in the day?

----------


## **TOP**

> well, the onyl reason im asking is because it would be difficult to measure out everything to fit into a 65/35 ratio of fat and protein.no it wouldnt use fitday.com input everything you wanna eat and it will give you a %!! i wanted to know if going off a little bit of it like having 200g protein instead of 150 if it would turn to glycogen? no it wont turn to glycogen,i beleive the only way it would do that is if you went low on carbs and fat. It has to because there is no energy source so it takes the pro to make one!
> if so, then i will just have to suck it up and make sure i do it 100% correct.
> Also, if i had 10% carbs which would equal out to about 40 would that be too many for the day? I was thinking about keeping it 30 or under. I am going to buy ketostix though just ot make sure im in ketosis. this will be trial and error some people can do higher carbs and still achieve the goal,i try to stay around 20 carbs a day though. I was just trying to get you to understand that you could raise carbs instead of protein and still be fine
> i have pretty decent abs, however some lighting they are ok and other lighting they are pretty amazing.. Im trying to make it so they look great in all different lighting, but i also want ot maintain my lbm or even increase it a little, but if i cant increase then def just maintain it because u do look bigger when ur cut even though u technically are smaller... Or it looks that way to me anyway. without pics ill have to take your word for it.lol!
> what i rly need explained ot me is if i weigh 185 lbs, say about 165 of it is lbm (that would be 11% bf ), what is the max protein i should have in the day? And what is the least amount of fat i should have in the day? shoot for 60-65% fat and 30-35 pro,there is no magical number,your calories will dictate what happens. I wish i could say take in 144.12362 grams of fat and you will be shredded but it doesnt work that way !!


~top~

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## **TOP**

> Sorry for all the questions just trying to learn, in the end this will take some trial and error to get the results I'm happy with but......The Sat morning full body workout, can I follow it with cardio or stay away from cardio? I use to do yoga on Sat, throw that out the window? Do I start my carb load my first meal after the workout or later in the day?


After 6 fuc*in days without carbs ,working out heavy mon-wed ,cardio during the week, and the full body depletement workout on friday, i highly doubt you will give a flyin shit about cardio!! There are variations ive seen where guys train heavy on there carb load days,but i dont i carb up and rest,thats it! Remember you are trying to achieve GLYCOGEN SUPERCOMPENSATION you can do enough cardio during the week refill the gas tank on the carb up day and dont drive the car!

----------


## D7M

> Most of the carb loads ive seen have been done between 2-2.5 days depending on if you eat throughout the night. I do not suggest depleting,staying on keto for the rest of the day,then the following day carbing up. I have never seen a variation do that,it makes no sense. The 2 day carb up, refeed, whatever you wanna call it, is an average of what it takes people. In the book "BODYOPUS" the author suggest carbing friday around 4 in the afternoon to sunday around 4-6 in the afternoon eating every 2 hours throughout the night and also using glucose disposal agents(ALA,Vanadyl sulfate,chromium etc...)
> 
> That make sense Bodyguard?


Makes perfect sense, bro. 

But just knowing how my body reacts, and what works for me, I would never refeed for more than one day. 

Shit, after my refeeds I'm up at least 8-10lbs. 




> After 6 fuc*in days without carbs ,working out heavy mon-wed ,cardio during the week, and the full body depletement workout on friday, i highly doubt you will give a flyin shit about cardio!! There are variations ive seen where guys train heavy on there carb load days,but i dont i carb up and rest,thats it! Remember you are trying to achieve GLYCOGEN SUPERCOMPENSATION you can do enough cardio during the week refill the gas tank on the carb up day and dont drive the car!


^I agree, and actually think cardio on refeed days are counter productive. you want to be restoring glycogen (among other things), so the last thing you want to be doing is cardio.

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## americanoak

ah k i am starting to feel a little better now, so as long as i keep my amount of fat over say..... 100-120g a day my body will use that as fuel and not my protein, even if i have close to 200g of protein?

this would be a 53/47 fat to protein ratio.

The reaosn im asking is because I dont see how you couldnt have that much protein if you are only having about 6% of cals from carbs.. and i guess if i were to have about 6% cals from carbs it would be more like a 50/44/6 ratio

----------


## edgarr

Cool. Would it be safe to stay on this diet/routine for 12-16 weeks.

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## **TOP**

^The fat spares the protein,and your fat needs to be higher than what it looks like you have at the moment!

----------


## **TOP**

> cool. Would it be safe to stay on this diet/routine for 12-16 weeks.


yes.

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## americanoak

> ^The fat spares the protein,and your fat needs to be higher than what it looks like you have at the moment!


 So how high should they be around? 120g? thatd be about 63% if i was on a 1700 cal diet

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## **TOP**

> so how high should they be around? 120g? Thatd be about 63% if i was on a 1700 cal diet


isnt that what ive said like 15 times! Fat at 60-65%

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## americanoak

lol ok ok sorry i just like to be extra sure.

Have u ever taken carb cheaters while on this diet? If not, do you know anything about them, would they actually stop the glycogen from being refilled or do they just stop insulin spikes?

----------


## **TOP**

> lol ok ok sorry i just like to be extra sure.
> 
> Have u ever taken carb cheaters while on this diet? If not, do you know anything about them, would they actually stop the glycogen from being refilled or do they just stop insulin spikes?


ALA would work just fine. The majority of supplements on the market have a cool picture on the front of the box,and the only way they help you lose weight is reducing the weight of your wallet!! Can you tell im not a supplement guy!!LOL

----------


## baddgsx

I cant believe how sick i feel in the stomach doing this CKD diet. Does that feeling go away? first week is probably the hardest? 

Chris

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## americanoak

haha yea i used ot buy alot of supps now i only buy protein powder and creatine. But it takes me about a year ( or more) to go throuhg an entire container of creatine so its not that bad. I also have so glutamine left over and thinking about buying bcaa's to reduce the loss of muscle while on the diet.

But what do u mean by ALA? is that the carb cheater? Are you sure these do work when on the diet?

----------


## baddgsx

On your carb up day , fri night and sat. does the body start building muscle? Seems like it would.

----------


## **TOP**

> I cant believe how sick i feel in the stomach doing this CKD diet. Does that feeling go away? first week is probably the hardest? 
> 
> Chris


Perfectly normal,it kinda feels like the flu.This is why most people stop and do not proceed. It gets better. How long you been doing this?

----------


## **TOP**

> haha yea i used ot buy alot of supps now i only buy protein powder and creatine. But it takes me about a year ( or more) to go throuhg an entire container of creatine so its not that bad. I also have so glutamine left over and thinking about buying bcaa's to reduce the loss of muscle while on the diet.
> 
> But what do u mean by ALA? is that the carb cheater? Are you sure these do work when on the diet?


R-ALA is a potent insulin -mimicking agent. It speeds the removal of glucose (sugar) from the blood AKA Glucose disposal agent!

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## americanoak

ahh ok thanks TOP, one more question, prolly not my last either but ive been tyring to dirnk more and more water lately, is it considered drinking water if you put in 0 calorie powders like crystal lite

so if i drank 32 ounces of water of 16 of ti was with the powdered mix would it rly be like i drank 32 oz?

----------


## **TOP**

> ahh ok thanks TOP, one more question, prolly not my last either but ive been tyring to dirnk more and more water lately, is it considered drinking water if you put in 0 calorie powders like crystal lite
> 
> so if i drank 32 ounces of water of 16 of ti was with the powdered mix would it rly be like i drank 32 oz?


If you drink 32 ounces of water with dog piss in it,its still 32 ounces of water.

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## americanoak

makes sense haha

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## mg1228

> If you drink 32 ounces of water with dog piss in it,its still 32 ounces of water.


this is why i like TOPs posts---u get good info and a good laugh at the same time

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## baddgsx

> Perfectly normal,it kinda feels like the flu.This is why most people stop and do not proceed. It gets better. How long you been doing this?


Last week I started a low carb diet with only carbs being broccoli and coliflower and sticking with 40 g protein every 3 hours. Scared of loosing my gains. And then I came accross your thread and switched over to ckd. So I was already low on the carbs just needed to increase fats andlower the protein. The mental discomfort hit hard today. Didn't want to work. I'm at the gym now getting ready to start the full body workout. Had a banana an hour ago and have 100g waximaize starch and 50 g protein ready for after workout. Can't wait to feel the carb load. I should look fuller from that, right? Happy carbing guys. It's fri!!!!!!

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## **TOP**

^Good glad to here you are depleting,you may feel bloated i always do but monday is what i look forward to!! I get amazing pumps and im noticeably stronger!

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## mg1228

hey TOP, wife down 13 lbs-in 18 days---her split has been more like 45 pro -50 fat -5 carbs--gonna try and get her more toward 60 /35/ 5 and see what happens

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## **TOP**

Wonderful to here!! Tell her i said good job im proud of her!! :Welcome:

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## mg1228

will do---thanks man

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## Choppers

I think this definitely deserves Sticky Status.

Big respect Top. Great article and patience with all the follow up answers.

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## energizer bunny

Great thread Top.....

would 4 weeks be a decent amount of time to see results?

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## **TOP**

> Great thread Top.....
> 
> would 4 weeks be a decent amount of time to see results?


YES,although it will take 2-4 weeks to get it all down to an art form,you would definetly see an dramatic difference. If you plan on doing this i suggest before pics!!! Then do it for 8-10 weeks and take after pics,it would seem you could kick the old you's ass! :7up:

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## energizer bunny

im just having a look really...i might try it for 4 weeks in the spring....ive changed my diet up a bit this year and going to give it a good go for a few months first.....

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## baddgsx

> YES,although it will take 2-4 weeks to get it all down to an art form,you would definetly see an dramatic difference. If you plan on doing this i suggest before pics!!! Then do it for 8-10 weeks and take after pics,it would seem you could kick the old you's ass!


is it cool if we post progress pics on here?

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## **TOP**

> is it cool if we post progress pics on here?


Wont bother me a bit,post away! :Welcome:

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## energizer bunny

can milk be used on carb up days?

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## americanoak

> this is why i like TOPs posts---u get good info and a good laugh at the same time


agreed haha

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## **TOP**

> can milk be used on carb up days?


Sure can, just make sure its skim milk ,fat free!

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## crazypat123

Great post top

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## TheUfan

Aight so I dont post often but I couldnt pass this one up. Been doing this "diet" for 9 weeks. The first 2 weeks were keto only (missed my carbup bc of some bs) the next 7 weeks have been pure CKD. BTW Top is my trainer, and the last 7 weeks Ive also been on my first cycle, 500mg/wk Test-E. My stats are as follows: 5'6" 185lbs 17%bf. At the beginning of this diet I weighed 185 and was at 25% bodyfat at least if not more. Ive went from 37 waist to 32, increased muscle mass and strength. Some of this is obviously from the Test...But this is the easiest diet to follow and keep up with. You see visible results every week and after the carb ups your strength goes through the roof. My diet is closer to the Bodyopus version which is 70% fat 30% pro, 40 calories or less carbs. After week one, you feel amazing on the Fat-pro during the week. So good in fact that you may stop craving carbs altogether. Thats the rub though. This diet is designed to burn fat AND spare muscle mass. Hence the high fat ratios. Really goes against all you've been taught to believe but its phenomenal. I follow this program closely, my weekly caloric intake is 1700+-, this includes, pepperoni, ham, sausage, hotdogs, pork loin, hamburger, steak, fatty fish, dark meat chicken, cheese (lowcarb or nocarb), cream cheese-full fat only, fish oil, canola oil, natural peanut butter (2 TB or less per day), spam lite, full fat mayo. The workout plan is...Do what TOP says! cuz he's my trainer and why pay someone if your not going to do what they say. We workout monday-tuesday, cardio wed-thurs, deplete friday (hopefully am!). First 4 meals 128g dextrose, the rest of the carb-up is ratios of high to low GI carbs ranging from twinkies and little debbies (control!) to bagels and sweet potatoe fries, maybe a pizza thrown in. To me you get better results on monday if you eat through the night but you still get results either way. Read the books if you can find them. TOP knows his sh!t.

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## americanoak

hey top, it might be a pain, but if you dont mind, you think you can PM me your diet, Im about 90 pages into the book but it hasnt gotten very much into what exactly to eat yet. I'de just like an example of what ude eat on one of the keto days and then one of the carb days.

Thanks for all the help

----------


## edgarr

I have a question about the full body workout. So I workout M-F hitting one body part per day. I hit it hard doing 3 excercises and 3 sets of 6-8 reps with heavy enough weight that I go to failur in 6-8 reps. This has always worked best for me. Usally on Friday I do back so I was thinking that I would skip back on the Sat full body workout. Here is what I did today. First, my pre-workout meal was stil a pro/fat one.

Supersetting everything and 3 sets 10 reps: 
Chest: flat bench and flys
Arms: Curls and tricep pull downs
Shoulders: Presses and side lats
Legs: Leg press and stiff legged dead lifts also hit my calves here
Abs

I got a real good pump and was able to be done in 40 mins or so. Right after I had a pro/carb meal and will carb up through Sun. What do you think?

----------


## **TOP**

> hey top, it might be a pain, but if you dont mind, you think you can PM me your diet, Im about 90 pages into the book but it hasnt gotten very much into what exactly to eat yet. I'de just like an example of what ude eat on one of the keto days and then one of the carb days.
> 
> Thanks for all the help


I do just regular keto foods that are on a keto diet.If you want ideas research the Adtkins diet, its keto. As far as the carb load i use maltodextrin,bagels,corn flakes,rice cakes ive used oatmeal creme pies and other snack foods but do my best to steer clear of FRUCTOSE and SUCROSE at all cost. 

There are a few things in the book you have (BODYOPUS) that i disagree with and there are things in lyle mcdonalds book i disagree with.But i ty to take things from each and mold it to fit my own beliefs...TOP

----------


## **TOP**

> i have a question about the full body workout. So i workout m-f hitting one body part per day. you only do 1 bodybart a day? Seems like a waste to me!!i hit it hard doing 3 excercises and 3 sets of 6-8 reps with heavy enough weight that i go to failur in 6-8 reps. This has always worked best for me. Usally on friday i do back so i was thinking that i would skip back on the sat full body workout. Here is what i did today. First, my pre-workout meal was stil a pro/fat one.
> next time eat 2 pieces or so of fruit to get you out of ketosis and also help power the workout.eat it 60 min before your workout.supersetting everything and 3 sets 10 reps: 
> Chest: Flat bench and flys
> arms: Curls and tricep pull downs
> shoulders: Presses and side lats
> legs: Leg press and stiff legged dead lifts also hit my calves here
> abs the set up looks ok but i would actually do 3sets of 20 with 2 rotations
> 
> i got a real good pump and was able to be done in 40 mins or so. Right after i had a pro/carb meal and will carb up through sun. What do you think? good but if your goals is ultimate fat loss i would cut carbs saturday night then go back keto sunday.



~top~

----------


## **TOP**

To "THEUFAN"

Wazzup!!  :0piss:

----------


## edgarr

> ~top~





> I have a question about the full body workout. So I workout M-F hitting one body part per day. I hit it hard doing 3 excercises and 3 sets of 6-8 reps with heavy enough weight that I go to failur in 6-8 reps. This has always worked best for me. Usally on Friday I do back so I was thinking that I would skip back on the Sat full body workout. Here is what I did today. First, my pre-workout meal was stil a pro/fat one. So I am still taking protein here right, just adding fruit??
> Supersetting everything and 3 sets 10 reps: 
> Chest: flat bench and flys
> Arms: Curls and tricep pull downs
> Shoulders: Presses and side lats
> Legs: Leg press and stiff legged dead lifts also hit my calves here
> Abs When you say 2 rotations do you mean then that I would do a total of 6 sets?
> I got a real good pump and was able to be done in 40 mins or so. Right after I had a pro/carb meal and will carb up through Sun. What do you think?


 Yes my goal is fat loss so only one day of carb load?

----------


## **TOP**

> Yes my goal is fat loss so only one day of carb load?


Well if you started today its not 1 day of carbs its the rest of friday and all of saturday!

----------


## edgarr

> Well if you started today its not 1 day of carbs its the rest of friday and all of saturday!


No, sorry if I am not clear. So all of Friday was still Keto, around 35 grams of carbs only. Sat (today) I started to carb up.

----------


## **TOP**

> No, sorry if I am not clear. So all of Friday was still Keto, around 35 grams of carbs only. Sat (today) I started to carb up.


OK sorry i was wrong i thought you started friday,its hard to keep everyones questions straight! You depleted sat so go through all day sat and discontinue sunday night...TOP

----------


## oak2429

what does your workout look like on friday. the fullbody one?

----------


## americanoak

> *There are a few things in the book you have (BODYOPUS) that i disagree with and there are things in lyle mcdonalds book i disagree with*.But i ty to take things from each and mold it to fit my own beliefs...TOP


things like what? if you dont mind explaining

also what do you eat post workout on the keto days

----------


## Damienm05

During the keto-phase; does it matter how many cals above TDEE? With 70% of cals via fat, it's easy to go way over naturally.

----------


## energizer bunny

> things like what? if you dont mind explaining
> 
> also what do you eat post workout on the keto days


ill take a guess and say shake and udos oil??

----------


## baddgsx

If i stay true to this diet 100% , how long do you think itll take to get down to single digits from 18-19% body fat? 

Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> During the keto-phase; does it matter how many cals above TDEE? With 70% of cals via fat, it's easy to go way over naturally.


Its according to what your goals are. If its bf loss it should be 500-700 under TDEE. Just because the ratios change doesnt mean the calories should! If you take in 2000 cals over TDEE for an extended period you will still get fat ,even on keto!...TOP

----------


## **TOP**

> ill take a guess and say shake and udos oil??


EG is correct mon-wed-fri i use a shake and udo's tues&thurs i skip it to lower cals and just eat a regular meal...TOP

----------


## **TOP**

> If i stay true to this diet 100% , how long do you think itll take to get down to single digits from 18-19% body fat? 
> 
> Chris


This is a question only time can answer! Nobody knows how long it will take anyone to get to single digits. There are to many variables. If you had 2 people with the same stats,same diet,same training, they will both see different stages and outcomes. Its the beauty of bodybuilding,to push yourself past the limits and be amazed at what becomes of you!..TOP

----------


## baddgsx

> This is a question only time can answer! Nobody knows how long it will take anyone to get to single digits. There are to many variables. If you had 2 people with the same stats,same diet,same training, they will both see different stages and outcomes. Its the beauty of bodybuilding,to push yourself past the limits and be amazed at what becomes of you!..TOP


that's true, I'm gonna see how it goes for a month. If I need some help I'll get some tren or winny to speed up the process. 

Chris

----------


## edgarr

> that's true, I'm gonna see how it goes for a *month* I wouldn't think this is a fair amount of time, it will take your body 2 weeks to adjust. * If I need some help I'll get some tren or winny to speed up the process.* 
> Chris


 This just tells me you are prepared to quit

----------


## baddgsx

> This just tells me you are prepared to quit


I'm no quiter! This diet is different from anything Ive ever done. But I won't quit.  :Smilie:  thanx for the motivation though.

----------


## **TOP**

The secret to success in the bodybuilding world is not drugs,diet, or training. While all those things must be present ,without one key ingredient they all are worthless...........CONSISTENCY!


Rome was not built in a day!!

----------


## edgarr

Well I lost 5 lbs last week and put 2 back on after the 2 day carb load. My carb load wasn't really strict and I ate a lot! All in all I'm happy with that and have raised my fat and lowered my carbs even more this week.

----------


## baddgsx

> Well I lost 5 lbs last week and put 2 back on after the 2 day carb load. My carb load wasn't really strict and I ate a lot! All in all I'm happy with that and have raised my fat and lowered my carbs even more this week.


Nice bro! I lost 2 myself. Can't wait to do chest and back today. Big pumps!!!! Carb up day is sooo fun.

----------


## baddgsx

http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...enic-diet.html

here's a link to a good explaination of ckd also

----------


## edgarr

can someone help me find the formula for how many calories are in a gram of fat, etc?

----------


## baddgsx

Carb - 4 
protein - 4
fat - 9

----------


## edgarr

TOP in the link posted above the writer states "Some have found to enjoy a protein shake afterwards because they are easily digested. Do whatever works for you. But fat is not logical since you want the protein to fuel the healing process as quickly as possible and fat will only slow it down."

However you do take Udo's with your shake so what is your thought on what the writer says. Thanks

----------


## JR G lady

> Well I lost 5 lbs last week and put 2 back on after the 2 day carb load. My carb load wasn't really strict and I ate a lot! All in all I'm happy with that and have raised my fat and lowered my carbs even more this week.


Good shit bro im doing the same diet my carb load days were sat and sunday i lost 8 anc went up 3 on. this week I lowered my carbs too and increased my fat. went and picked up a bottle of macadamia nut oil I add it to my shake.

----------


## danielli

> can someone help me find the formula for how many calories are in a gram of fat, etc?


 1 Gram Approximate
Calories 
Protein 4 
Carbohydrate 4 
Fat 9 
Glycerin 4.32 
Alcohol 7

----------


## **TOP**

> TOP in the link posted above the writer states "Some have found to enjoy a protein shake afterwards because they are easily digested. Do whatever works for you. But fat is not logical since you want the protein to fuel the healing process as quickly as possible and fat will only slow it down."
> 
> However you do take Udo's with your shake so what is your thought on what the writer says. Thanks


You will have many different opinions on this,but you need some sort of energy source PWO no matter what! 

EFA's have been proven to help increase energy production,help us to repair and manufacture our cell membranes,and they aid in recovery, oxygen delivery to muscles, have anti-inflammatory properties,and increase 
protein synthesis. Efas are greatly beneficial for overall health, and perhaps most important to young bodybuilders, EFA’s promote good circulation. The ability to move increased amounts of blood to different parts of the body increases the likelihood that essential amino acids will be delivered to muscle tissue. Especially post-workout, the ability to move protein-rich blood to the trained area directly affects whether new muscle growth is initiated and sustained, or not. Additionally, the increased circulation leads to longer cardio endurance, better pumps, and more blood being pumped into the muscle group.

But like i said before you still will have others that like the idea of dextrose and other carbohydrate sources post workout. Which is why you should take it upon yourself to learn your body and do what works best for you...TOP

----------


## americanoak

grats on the work you guys are putting in.

Top, whenever you get the chance could u help me with these q's

you said: _There are a few things in the book you have (BODYOPUS) that i disagree with and there are things in lyle mcdonalds book i disagree with.But i ty to take things from each and mold it to fit my own beliefs...TOP_ 

things like what?

also what do you eat post workout on the keto days, this q is for anyone

----------


## **TOP**

> grats on the work you guys are putting in.
> 
> Top, whenever you get the chance could u help me with these q's
> 
> you said: _There are a few things in the book you have (BODYOPUS) that i disagree with and there are things in lyle mcdonalds book i disagree with.But i ty to take things from each and mold it to fit my own beliefs...TOP I dont care to ellaborate ,because i beleive it would confuse people more,its nothing that would change the face of the big picture just personal things that work for me or dont work for me that i disagree with. Dont lose sleep over it!_ 
> 
> things like what?
> 
> also what do you eat post workout on the keto days, this q is for anyone


I eat keto food! its either a shake and udos or i skip the PWO meal and have a whole food meal,simple,easy..TOP

----------


## danielli

TOP,
This is some great info. I can't believe ur taking the time to answer everyone's questions individually and specifically; just amazing.

What do you think about CKD for someone who has just recently started working out?

I did atkins a couple years ago and lost a lot of weight (I'm 6'1" and went from 240 -> 190). However, I didnt work out AT ALL and my physique showed it. I was skinny in some places but still pudgy in others. I kept the weight off for a while, but surely, little by little I’m back up (220) and NEED to get my as* in gear. I find this post, and other's story very motivating.

This time around I want to definitely hit the weights.

Is this a good W/O Diet plan for a beginner?

----------


## americanoak

danielli, i would say this is a difficult diet plan for a beginner, but ocnsidering you said you already did an atkins diet it should be much easier for you. Just resist the carbs because your body will probably crave them especially if you are just starting working out too.

GL though

---

also, what are udos? lol

----------


## **TOP**

[QUOTE=danielli;5040487]TOP,
This is some great info. I can't believe ur taking the time to answer everyone's questions individually and specifically; just amazing.

What do you think about CKD for someone who has just recently started working out? REFER TO POST #106. 

I did atkins a couple years ago and lost a lot of weight ATKINS IS A KETO DIET,A SKD, THIS IS SIMULAR TO THE ATKINS BUT IS TARGETED TOWARDS PEOPLE WANTING TO LOSE BF AND MAINTAIN MUSCLE MASS. (I'm 6'1" and went from 240 -> 190). However, I didnt work out AT ALL and my physique showed it. WORKING OUT IS A MUST! I was skinny in some places but still pudgy in others. I kept the weight off for a while, but surely, little by little Im back up (220) and NEED to get my as* in gear. I find this post, and other's story very motivating.

This time around I want to definitely hit the weights.

Is this a good W/O Diet plan for a beginner? ITS A VERY SIMPLE PLAN TO STICK WITH,ONE COULD SAY ITS SO EASY A CAVEMAN COULD DO IT,LOL(CORNY I KNOW) BUT IN ALL SERIOUSNESS MOST PEOPLE IVE WORKED WITH DONT HAVE THE DISCIPLINE OR DRIVE LIKE OTHERS DO,SO BY DOING THIS DIET YOU DONT FEEL STRANDED ON A DIET ISLAND,INSTEAD YOU GET TO EAT ALL THE THE THINGS YOU WANT TO(WHEN ITS TIME TO) THEREBY ALLEVIATING THE MOST COMMON PROBLEMS IN DIET.....MENTAL FAILURE![/QUOTE]

----------


## **TOP**

> ---
> 
> also, what are udos? lol



Here allow me! lol


http://www.google.com/

----------


## americanoak

lol i supose i cnould have done that in the first place, i guess this forum lets people get a little lazy sometimes.. so used ot just asking people and them giving the answer aha i used ot live on google before i found this site.

So udos is an oil.. is it basically fish oil? Im asking this because i googled it and found udos 3-6-9 oil, which is basically what fish oil is isnt it?

correct me if im wrong please. And where is its place in this diet? Why is it used PWO

----------


## **TOP**

> lol i supose i cnould have done that in the first place, i guess this forum lets people get a little lazy sometimes.. so used ot just asking people and them giving the answer aha i used ot live on google before i found this site.
> 
> So udos is an oil.. is it basically fish oil? Im asking this because i googled it and found udos 3-6-9 oil, which is basically what fish oil is isnt it?
> 
> correct me if im wrong please. And where is its place in this diet? Why is it used PWO


Refer to post #136

Udos is EFA'S

----------


## americanoak

ohh great im gonna get me some of that.

Also what i found was intersting for the CKD diet in Bodyopus was the supplimentation of chromuum and vandyl sulphate increases insulin sensetiviy, which means, form what i understand, your body will produce less insulin to get its same effect.

This seems like it would be a good idea for the week days to further your chance of staying in ketosis when having your carbs, even though you are having very little.

Unfortunetly idk the dosage, im sur eit would say on the supp bottle if you bought it.

And if you used these before would u recomend it

----------


## edgarr

> Good shit bro im doing the same diet my carb load days were sat and sunday i lost 8 anc went up 3 on. this week I lowered my carbs too and increased my fat. went and picked up a bottle of macadamia nut oil I add it to my shake.


Good job. I have lowered the cals by about 300 and up fats by 13 grams, carbs about the same. I'll see how this goes for the next few weeks (i.e, feel, lose, look) and report back.

As I said my carb load days weren't the cleanest but not too bad, worse thing was the drinking but I only drink vodka and water.

----------


## **TOP**

> ohh great im gonna get me some of that.
> 
> Also what i found was intersting for the CKD diet in Bodyopus was the supplimentation of chromuum and vandyl sulphate increases insulin sensetiviy, which means, form what i understand, your body will produce less insulin to get its same effect.
> 
> This seems like it would be a good idea for the week days to further your chance of staying in ketosis when having your carbs, even though you are having very little.
> 
> Unfortunetly idk the dosage, im sur eit would say on the supp bottle if you bought it.
> 
> And if you used these before would u recomend it


The reason he mentioned GDA(Glucose disposal agent) is to get the remaining glucose out of the system to give you a better fighting chance to achieve ketosis quicker. But like ive said i dont agree with a few things in the book and "ketosis" is one of them. Ketosis is only the side effect of having low low carbs you shouldnt lose sleep trying to get into ketosis.With carbs being low and fats being high your body will do what needs to be done. Those supplements, are just that ,supplements! They may help but dont rush out to purchase a weeks worth of pay on them!!...TOP

----------


## mg1228

hey TOP---after ur carb up how long till u drop the extra lbs of the carb up---and does ur body switch back to ketosis quickly or no?

----------


## **TOP**

> hey TOP---after ur carb up how long till u drop the extra lbs of the carb up---and does ur body switch back to ketosis quickly or no?


Slowly i creap down but when cutting it looks like this

fri-214LBS
sun-220LBS

fri-212LBS
sun-218LBS

fri-210LBS
sun215 so on and so forth i still lose weight but it fluctautes due to muscle glycogen.

Although monday is always fun because i look like the incredible hulk with veins and pumps!!

Also it differs with ketosis agter 3 days or so of training heavy and cardio i have acheived it in 2 and a half days but when starting ouit took me alot longer.Now i dont piss on sticks anymore,i just do the same thing as i do when on the 40/40/20....watcH the mirror,i dont watch weight or clothing,i read the mirror!..TOP

----------


## mg1228

i gotcha---the wife gained 4lb afterwards and shes freakin--i told her it was her muscles suckin up all the glycogen--but thats hard for her to understand

----------


## **TOP**

> i gotcha---the wife gained 4lb afterwards and shes freakin--i told her it was her muscles suckin up all the glycogen--but thats hard for her to understand


Yep.tell her to take advantage of it and weight train!

"Its worth a shot" LOL

----------


## **TOP**

MG explain it to her like this.. "it is estimated that every gram of glycogen stored is associated with about 2.7g of water" hintz the weight gain....from water!

I bet she is pissed at you hahaha

----------


## mg1228

she trusts me---but i told her not to even get on the scale--so its her fault---lol

----------


## baddgsx

TOP , you were right!! , today i did chest and back and i havent felt a chest pump like this in awhile. cant wait to do legs tomarro 

Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> TOP , you were right!! , today i did chest and back and i havent felt a chest pump like this in awhile. cant wait to do legs tomarro 
> 
> Chris


Glad to here you like it! Ive found that mondays are the best, so switch your workout around. Next week do legs on monday,make sense?

----------


## baddgsx

> Glad to here you like it! Ive found that mondays are the best, so switch your workout around. Next week do legs on monday,make sense?


didnt think of that , it makes sense though!

----------


## americanoak

you have alot of great advie Top, i cant wait to ge tthis thing started, im still reading the book but should be done shortly, i will deff post my progress when i start though

----------


## baddgsx

Pissed on some keto-stix this morning. Very light color chane but nothing like last thurs. And fri morning. This is normal right TOP?

----------


## **TOP**

> Pissed on some keto-stix this morning. Very light color chane but nothing like last thurs. And fri morning. This is normal right TOP?


Urinate on them again wed. night and see where you are. But like ive said before its not that big of a deal!

----------


## danielli

> Pissed on some keto-stix this morning. Very light color chane but nothing like last thurs. And fri morning. This is normal right TOP?


when I was on an SKD, it took about a week for the color to change to dark red. Anytime after that, if it went back to light pink it meant I snuck some carbs in somehow (sometimes unintentional.)

I think TOP's point though is not to focus too much on the ketosticks...just like getting on the scale, if you let yourself, you can become just as obsessed with "pissin' on a stick"

----------


## baddgsx

It's my first carb keto diet. I want to understand what my body is doing everyday by looking in the mirror and pissing on the stix. Once I run out of stix I'll have a general idea of what's going on and I'll be able to tweak better my food intake. So far so good but when u really dial everything in is where he magics at!

----------


## edgarr

Top do you think getting fats from red meat is ok. I find they give me the cals I want and are loaded with fats. I eat 2 6oz steaks and 1 4oz burger a day which get me about 69g of my 128g of fat? My others come from fish oil,flax, avocados, eggs, pork rinds, almonds etc.

----------


## **TOP**

> Top do you think getting fats from red meat is ok. I find they give me the cals I want and are loaded with fats. I eat 2 6oz steaks and 1 4oz burger a day which get me about 69g of my 128g of fat? My others come from fish oil,flax, avocados, eggs, pork rinds, almonds etc.


Yep, i love red meat!!

----------


## JR G lady

> Good job. I have lowered the cals by about 300 and up fats by 13 grams, carbs about the same. I'll see how this goes for the next few weeks (i.e, feel, lose, look) and report back.
> 
> As I said my carb load days weren't the cleanest but not too bad, worse thing was the drinking but I only drink vodka and water.


cool bro same here I actaully didn't drink but my carb load wasn't the cleanest either, I actually ate pizza and wings. I heard that was bad. I hope I didn't **** anything. Up on my diet. I will tell u something tho I feel stressed out because Im so used to eatting how anything I want. It's so bad I freaking dream with food.lol but I keep telling my self to get over it. This gotta be the hardest diet I have ever tried. 
Anyone have any suggestions?

----------


## **TOP**

......................

----------


## **TOP**

> cool bro same here I actaully didn't drink but my carb load wasn't the cleanest either, I actually ate pizza and wings. I heard that was bad. I hope I didn't **** anything. Up on my diet. I will tell u something tho I feel stressed out because Im so used to eatting how anything I want. It's so bad I freaking dream with food.lol but I keep telling my self to get over it. This gotta be the hardest diet I have ever tried. 
> Anyone have any suggestions?


You should try dieting for a bodybuilding show! If you think this is hard you have no idea how hard contest prep can be! Stay strong!

----------


## Damienm05

Right now I'm running a 40/40/20 type diet and despite the fact that CKD fits my goals in no way at the moment; I'm following this thread to live vicariously through you lucky f*cks. Eating whole eggs and cheese for breakfast, pork loin and asparagus for lunch, and bacon-wrapped scallops for dinner - how is it hard?! Add on top of that the joy of eating lucky charms and baguette one day a week and you have yourself a very easy diet to follow.

Keep cheating and complaining while I drink egg whites and eat canned tuna!

I do have a question though TOP. Is eating a lot of sugary breakfast cerial, bagels, french toast, etc... the very high GI carbs... equivalent to eating 10x more complex carbs? And is it possible to over-do the carb up eating these foods at 80-100g per serving and spilling over into new fat?

----------


## baddgsx

Edgarr , you drink alcohol? I'm suprised that anyone on here would drink alcohol because of the bad effects it has on bodybuilding. Even one drink can slow down protein synthesis. I having touched that in a lonnnnng time. 


Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> I do have a question though TOP. Is eating a lot of sugary breakfast cerial, bagels, french toast, etc... the very high GI carbs... equivalent to eating 10x more complex carbs? And is it possible to over-do the carb up eating these foods at 80-100g per serving and spilling over into new fat?


Well its not always simple carbs,in the beginning i use simple then move on to more complex. Just like alot of others use dextrose after every PWO i only use it once a week. Also simple carbohydrates help out with the starvation hormone leptin. There are reasons to use simple carbs,although i dont suggest eating blindly with them! And yes you can spill over to fat very easily if not kept in check. Its been shown that 14-16grams of carbs for every lb in KGs(in lean body mass) should be used for the carb up,anything over that and you have a greater risk in depositing the foods into fat stores.You asked if eating 80-100g per serving would spill over to fat,my first 8 meals are all over 100 grams a meal,im still losing bodyfat! Hope this helps DAMIEN....TOP

----------


## baddgsx

im on the end of the second week and the ckd is getting easier on the mind. Using fat as energy instead of carbs definitely gave me nausea at times. To help with that i would take a small bowl hit  :Smilie:  

Love looking in the mirror everyday. my abbs are definetely coming in more defined. I cant wait till i get rid of the fat inbetween them , but i dont think thatlll happen for awhile. I bet that will be the last place the body goes for , for fuel. The lower section seems to be tightening up nice. 


Chris

----------


## edgarr

> cool bro same here I actaully didn't drink but my carb load wasn't the cleanest either, I actually ate pizza and wings. I heard that was bad. I hope I didn't **** anything. Up on my diet. I will tell u something tho I feel stressed out because Im so used to eatting how anything I want. It's so bad I freaking dream with food.lol but I keep telling my self to get over it. This gotta be the hardest diet I have ever tried. 
> Anyone have any suggestions?


I find it easy, I love the foods I am eating and the carb up days are great and only 6 days away!

----------


## edgarr

> Edgarr , you drink alcohol? I'm suprised that anyone on here would drink alcohol because of the bad effects it has on bodybuilding. Even one drink can slow down protein synthesis. I having touched that in a lonnnnng time. 
> 
> 
> Chris


*YES.* I am not a body builder or model. I workout to stay fit and look good but I also like to have fun. I work hard and play hard. I take a lot of vacations, I am into extreme sports, like snowboarding, mobiling, wakeboarding, sky diving, etc. and work a stressful job. So a lot of times the drinks take the edge off. I'm not saying you can't have fun without it but I have no desire to quick!

With that said, currently I am working on no booze during the week.

----------


## edgarr

> im on the end of the second week and the ckd is getting easier on the mind. Using fat as energy instead of carbs definitely gave me nausea at times. To help with that i would take a small bowl hit  
> 
> Love looking in the mirror everyday. my abbs are definetely coming in more defined. I cant wait till i get rid of the fat inbetween them , but i dont think thatlll happen for awhile. I bet that will be the last place the body goes for , for fuel. The lower section seems to be tightening up nice. 
> 
> 
> Chris


My 2nd week I have had less symptoms, heck even my deuces have been solid

----------


## baddgsx

Im no bodybuilder or model either bro. i look at it this way. If your gonna spend the money on supplements , food , AAS and other stuff to make yourself bigger , and cut..... why not do it to its fullest with cutting out the alcohol. 


I guess every body is different. Back when i was 20 i could drink like a horse , now at 30 , 1 drink and im drunk.... I hate the felling one drink put on me physical. My whole body aches , i have a headache for like 2 days. And my muscles shink. I feel like all my hardwork took a huge step back.


You on the other hand probably dont feel the above feelings like i do. 


Chris

----------


## edgarr

> Im no bodybuilder or model either bro. i look at it this way. If your gonna spend the money *I make a lot of it so no worries!* on supplements , food , AAS and other stuff to make yourself bigger , and cut..... why not do it to its fullest with cutting out the alcohol. 
> 
> 
> I guess every body is different. Back when i was 20 i could drink like a horse , now at 30 *I'm 39*, 1 drink and im drunk.... I hate the felling one drink put on me physical. My whole body aches , i have a headache for like 2 days. And my muscles shink. I feel like all my hardwork took a huge step back.
> 
> 
> You on the other hand probably dont feel the above feelings like i do. 
> 
> 
> Chris


I'm not promoting it just saying I like to drink!

----------


## Damienm05

> Well its not always simple carbs,in the beginning i use simple then move on to more complex. Just like alot of others use dextrose after every PWO i only use it once a week. Also simple carbohydrates help out with the starvation hormone leptin. There are reasons to use simple carbs,although i dont suggest eating blindly with them! And yes you can spill over to fat very easily if not kept in check. Its been shown that 14-16grams of carbs for every lb in KGs(in lean body mass) should be used for the carb up,anything over that and you have a greater risk in depositing the foods into fat stores.You asked if eating 80-100g per serving would spill over to fat,my first 8 meals are all over 100 grams a meal,im still losing bodyfat! Hope this helps DAMIEN....TOP


Yes it does. Can't wait to give this thing a go in April. Just to clarify however, that equation after converting my LBM into KG and then multiplying by 14 yields a carb load of 1100g or so. I dunno about you, but I'd need to ************* before I could fit that many carbs into my stomach over a 12-hour period. Hey, any excuse is a good one.

----------


## Damienm05

> To help with that i would take a small bowl hit


I envy you man. Bodybuilding forced me to quit smoking because I was simply unable to keep my calories under control. Even once I developed a system for healthy munchies, I would still eat like 2000 cals over my TDEE every day I got blazed, haha. I don't drink either so I've pretty much become a nymphomaniac as behind food, drugs, and alcohol that's the only vice left.

----------


## binsser

lolol alot of herb..... muches yeah..!!! hahahaha. Top if i cut my carbs down to like say 150 grams a day and kept my protien at 300 and uped my fat with udos to deficite the calories loss in carbs could this eventually do the same thing as keto ???

and ur amazing m8 answering all these qs lolol thumbs up for u m8!

----------


## Damienm05

> lolol alot of herb..... muches yeah..!!! hahahaha. Top if i cut my carbs down to like say 150 grams a day and kept my protien at 300 and uped my fat with udos to deficite the calories loss in carbs could this eventually do the same thing as keto ???
> 
> and ur amazing m8 answering all these qs lolol thumbs up for u m8!


I'm not Top but no, it would not. The state of ketosis is not brought on by a high fat intake and lower than average carb intake - it is your body's response to having no carbs to use as an energy source. Thus, stored fat is attacked at a rate which is impossible to match on another diet. At least one that doesn't involve starvation. A low carb diet with high EFA intake is a great way to cut up and you won't lose muscle mass but it's no where near as effective. Dare I say, without the carb-up, keto dieting can yield like 20 lbs. of fat loss in the first month while still taking in enough cals to stay satiated. Granted, you'd be disappointed with your sagging muscles or lack thereof.

----------


## mg1228

> lolol alot of herb..... muches yeah..!!! hahahaha. Top if i cut my carbs down to like say 150 grams a day and kept my protien at 300 and uped my fat with udos to deficite the calories loss in carbs could this eventually do the same thing as keto ???
> 
> and ur amazing m8 answering all these qs lolol thumbs up for u m8!


like Damien said--no--but its a good way to carb cycle though--the 150 would b a moderate day--70-80 a low day and 300-350 a high day---and just adjust fats up and down to stay at ur calories---this has worked for alot of guys too

----------


## baddgsx

> I envy you man. Bodybuilding forced me to quit smoking because I was simply unable to keep my calories under control. Even once I developed a system for healthy munchies, I would still eat like 2000 cals over my TDEE every day I got blazed, haha. I don't drink either so I've pretty much become a nymphomaniac as behind food, drugs, and alcohol that's the only vice left.



I used to get the munchies too. But i didnt mind cause i was bulking up eating everything i could. Now on the keto diet if i get that way i train myself to drink water instead. So far its been working. Give it a shot.

----------


## edgarr

I still need to dial in this carb loading. I guess it will be trial and error for a few weeks but my first one was done over sat and sunday and I think I took in too many cals. I know that the scale isnt the best tool to use but I didn't lose anything this week after losing 5lbs last week. I also didn't feel the same. The mirror looks fine and I have a pair of jeans on that use to be tight and fit good now. Is 2 days too much, thats like 12 meals with carbs. Should I only go 1 day and then start CKD next day even though I dont lift on that day?

----------


## Damienm05

Top would be the best to judge your situation but I'd say 2 days is probably too much at first. Start with one 12-hour period and gauge workout intensity over the next 3 days; if something is lacking or you feel depleted in general; step it up.

That said, it sounds like you're over-thinking things man. The scale is not only a poor tool to gauge progress with following a carb up; it's completely destructive. Go by the way clothes fit and by the mirror. Also, if you took in a ton of sugar, especially fructose, it will take a lot longer to re-establish ketosis, contributing to not feeling quite the same. Just my $.02

----------


## edgarr

I used a Keto stick today, I know that I shouldn't be over concerned with that but just wondering what it means. The color matched the negative color???

----------


## Failure

It means you aren't in Ketosis. The color doesn't matter, either you're in or you're out. Watch your hidden carbs.

----------


## **TOP**

Hey guys sorry ive been MIA, my wife had surgery today and ive been with her every moment.

1st the 150 grams of carbs a day would not be anything remotely like keto,just like damien and MG said!

Alsosome people wont respond to a 2 day carb up especially if you choose the wrong foods. Its best to stick with 1 full day at the moment until you are ready to push your limits. I do 2 and my results are great,i also train with extreme intensity and im very VERY anal about my dieting!

Once this diet has been done for a while ,2-3 months, the body will be used to it and it will be harder for it to transition back into the glucose burning mode just like it was when you started shifting to fats.

The longer you are on this you will come to realize that when you started you felt like utter "shit" when you had 0 carbs. Aha but now when you eat carbs on the weeken d you feel like shit,sluggish tired nauseated. Your body isnt used to them anymore and its not quite sure how to respond to such rapid quantities. 

Also in my opinion bagels should be a staple of a carb load!(Just my opinion of course!)...TOP

----------


## gbrice75

> Right now I'm running a 40/40/20 type diet and despite the fact that CKD fits my goals in no way at the moment; I'm following this thread to live vicariously through you lucky f*cks.


How is this 40/40/20 going for you? How long have you been running it, and what have your results been so far?

I just started running it as well and am about to close out week 4; i've noticed a bit more abs, and a few pounds lighter, but nothing to write home about. I'm hoping month 2 will bring about greater results. Are you doing a carb refeed on this diet?

On another note - just curious, do you have any pics up'd?

----------


## gbrice75

> I envy you man. Bodybuilding forced me to quit smoking because I was simply unable to keep my calories under control. Even once I developed a system for healthy munchies, I would still eat like 2000 cals over my TDEE every day I got blazed, haha. I don't drink either so I've pretty much become a nymphomaniac as behind food, drugs, and alcohol that's the only vice left.


I'll be honest, I blaze every single night, it sounds corny but I can't live without it, i'm too stressed from work and too high strung to begin with. I quit my other bad habits; namely food, and cigarettes, but this one has to stay!

Yes, it's hard as hell to maintain a diet this strict while blazed, but that's the discipline i'm trying to prove I have now...

----------


## stpete

Nice post TOP.

----------


## mg1228

hey g brice, just looked back at my pics from my 3 mo cut--the magic happens between mo 2 and 3---i took 5 pics every week thru the whole cut---stick to it--i know u will

----------


## Damienm05

> How is this 40/40/20 going for you? How long have you been running it, and what have your results been so far?
> 
> I just started running it as well and am about to close out week 4; i've noticed a bit more abs, and a few pounds lighter, but nothing to write home about. I'm hoping month 2 will bring about greater results. Are you doing a carb refeed on this diet?
> 
> On another note - just curious, do you have any pics up'd?


I've been running it for about 8 weeks now, all of which have been on 500mg of test. Needless to say, it's hard to gauge because I've gained like 15 lbs. of lean mass and am retaining another 5-10 in water it would seem. In terms of what I can say definitively, energy levels are great as well as how I feel in general.

I ran this diet when I was initially put onto this forum several months ago and followed it strictly for about 3 months. At this time, I was about 15% bf and had not begun planning my cycle yet. Over the course of that 3 month period, I got to about 12% which I thought was quite good since my weights were steadily increasing in the gym and I was eating just below my TDEE. Live and learn to be patient I guess, haha. Unlike keto, I felt thin but not depleted. Soon after, in order to get to single digit bf% before my cycle, i regrettably tried a very low carb keto-type diet with no refeed and I got to 9% in a month but I lost as much as 10% strength. 

Understand that unless you set your cals 1000 below your TDEE or do hours of daily cardio with a 40/40/20 diet, you won't see rapid weight loss. 1.5 lbs. a week is great, assuming it's all fat. Stick with it for another 8 weeks and you'll see that it's working well. In short, if you've seen a difference on the scale and in the mirror, albeit slight, after 4 weeks; you're doing well.

I did not do a refeed when I first ran this diet months ago. It was not necessary at that time and IMO, is not for you yet either. I do a refeed now, however it is minor. On my sat/sun I don't lift and I up my carbs from 150 to 300. Sources remain complex and carb consumption is cut off before dinner. My monday workout is great but it doesn't match the super-compensation seen with CKD for obvious reasons.

No pics up right now; planning on posting before and after pics after PCT.

----------


## gbrice75

> hey g brice, just looked back at my pics from my 3 mo cut--the magic happens between mo 2 and 3---i took 5 pics every week thru the whole cut---stick to it--i know u will


Thanks for the continued support bro, i'm not giving up yet! =)

----------


## gbrice75

> I've been running it for about 8 weeks now, all of which have been on 500mg of test. Needless to say, it's hard to gauge because I've gained like 15 lbs. of lean mass and am retaining another 5-10 in water it would seem. In terms of what I can say definitively, energy levels are great as well as how I feel in general.
> 
> *Makes sense. I would love to get my hands on some Test... currently in the market for Anavar though, going to try and start small to see how my body reacts to AAS.*
> 
> I ran this diet when I was initially put onto this forum several months ago and followed it strictly for about 3 months. At this time, I was about 15% bf and had not begun planning my cycle yet. Over the course of that 3 month period, I got to about 12% which I thought was quite good since my weights were steadily increasing in the gym and I was eating just below my TDEE. Live and learn to be patient I guess, haha. Unlike keto, I felt thin but not depleted. Soon after, in order to get to single digit bf% before my cycle, i regrettably tried a very low carb keto-type diet with no refeed and I got to 9% in a month but I lost as much as 10% strength.
> 
> Understand that unless you set your cals 1000 below your TDEE or do hours of daily cardio with a 40/40/20 diet, you won't see rapid weight loss. 1.5 lbs. a week is great, assuming it's all fat. Stick with it for another 8 weeks and you'll see that it's working well. In short, if you've seen a difference on the scale and in the mirror, albeit slight, after 4 weeks; you're doing well.
> 
> *Funny you mention it - my weight loss this week is exactly 1.5lbs.... i'd only be assuming it's all fat, but have no way to know for sure. I can definitely see my abs better; I have the 4 upper 'cubes' coming in nicely. The lower half of my abdomen doesn't even exist! In the 4 weeks, i'm down over 5lbs so I guess that's good progress. I haven't lost strength in the gym so far... so hopefully it's all fat that's burning off.*
> ...


*Looking forward to seeing your progress bro, good luck!*

----------


## Failure

> The longer you are on this you will come to realize that when you started you felt like utter "shit" when you had 0 carbs. Aha but now when you eat carbs on the weeken d you feel like shit,sluggish tired nauseated. Your body isnt used to them anymore and its not quite sure how to respond to such rapid quantities.



I can definitely attest to this. I ate 4 cookies this morning and not 10 mins after I felt like I had to take a nap. I can't concentrate very well and almost feel weak. I felt like this before dieting but to a lesser degree. It feels like crap IMO and makes me appreciate not eating bad. I look forward to cheat day but when I cheat I look forward to tomorrow when I go back on the diet.

On a side note, watch the servings of almonds. Everytime I would get up and grab a handful of them I thought I was eating 1 serving. I weighed it out and one handful is like 3-4 servings. I did that a few times a day. Stopped eating almonds and just replaced them with more meat/cheese.

----------


## edgarr

I have the wife starting this diet today. Anyone have a good workout split I can give her?

Also, does anyone notice an odd body odor? I almost smell like fish oil all the time but gets worse when sweating??

----------


## danielli

> ...Also, does anyone notice an odd body odor? I almost smell like fish oil all the time but gets worse when sweating??


I havent heard of worse BO, but I think one of the side effects of Ketosis is bad breath.

----------


## danielli

> Just so I understand, you are only taking the creatine on your load days or you take it everyday but increase it on the carb load days??





> ^I take it only on my carb load days around 3-5 grams with each 2 hour meal...TOP


TOP, is taking Creatine every day on this diet a waste?

----------


## edgarr

> TOP, is taking Creatine every day on this diet a waste?


There was an earlier post that stated that he only took it on is re-load days.

----------


## danielli

> There was an earlier post that stated that he only took it on is re-load days.


I know, I quoted it in my question. I'm curious why he only takes on carb-load days. 

Wondering if you get enough cretine naturally by eating som much meat/fish thats consumed during the keto days

----------


## jjaayy

I seen this at http://www.keto.org/foods.htm and wondering if this is true for the keto diet 

Safe Foods (No Carbs/Trace Carbs)

Beef, Steak, Hamburger, Prime Rib, Filet Mignon, Roast Beef, Chicken*, Duck, Any Fish*, Tuna*, Salmon*, Trout*, Halibut*, Lamb, Pork, Bacon, Ham, Eggs, Shrimp, Crab, Lobster, Butter, Oils (Olive Oil*, Flaxseed oil*, etc.), Mustard, Salt, Pepper, Soy Sauce, Tea, Coffee, Heavy Cream and Nutrasweet/Equal.

Minimal Carb Foods (Limited Quantities Only, Check Carb Content!)

Broccoli*, Spinach*, Lettuce*, Cabbage*, Bok Choy*, Kale*, Asparagus*, Mustard Greens*, Mushrooms*, Cucumbers*, Pickles*, Olives*, Celery*, Green Beans*, Brussel Sprouts*, Cauliflower*, Artichokes*, Peppers* (Red, Green, Jalapeno, Habanero), Onions*, Nuts, Flaxseeds*, Cheeses, Salami, Pastrami, Hot Dogs, Sausages, Ribs (watch out for the sauce!), Buffalo Wings, Liverwurst, Oysters, Abalone, Protein Powders, Sugar Free Jello, Salad Dressings (some), some Wines.

----------


## **TOP**

> TOP, is taking Creatine every day on this diet a waste?


All the studies i have seen say that creatine needs a transport system(carbohydrates,) and if your carbs are extemely low then i wouldnt think it would shuttle it like it should. Who knows? its so cheap it probably wouldnt hurt. But like ive said before all my creatine is used during the carb load so i can use it at the front of the week for heavy lifts. Also watch certain creatines they are high in carbs.....Cell tech etc....TOP

----------


## danielli

> All the studies i have seen say that creatine needs a transport system(carbohydrates,) and if your carbs are extemely low then i wouldnt think it would shuttle it like it should. Who knows? its so cheap it probably wouldnt hurt. But like ive said before all my creatine is used during the carb load so i can use it at the front of the week for heavy lifts. Also watch certain creatines they are high in carbs.....Cell tech etc....TOP


What about with Kre Alkalyn creatine, do you still need a trasport for that kind?

----------


## **TOP**

> What about with Kre Alkalyn creatine, do you still need a trasport for that kind?


Supposedly this one doesnt need a transport system so if you were to use creatine this one would be the way to go during the week due to the lack of carbohydrates. Good catch danielli..TOP

----------


## crazypat123

> All the studies i have seen say that creatine needs a transport system(carbohydrates,) and if your carbs are extemely low then i wouldnt think it would shuttle it like it should. Who knows? its so cheap it probably wouldnt hurt. But like ive said before all my creatine is used during the carb load so i can use it at the front of the week for heavy lifts. Also watch certain creatines they are high in carbs.....Cell tech etc....TOP


Damn I hope SizeOn is not high in carbs, I was thinking about using that once I lose some BF.I'll have to check into it. Great to know though!

----------


## edgarr

This might seem like an odd question but I have my wife trying this diet and now my daughter wants to try it. But she just gave birth 3 1/2 months ago and is breast feeding only. I am not sure if a low carb diet would be good. Of course I told her to check with her doctor before anything but maybe someone here has an opinion??

----------


## danielli

> This might seem like an odd question but I have my wife trying this diet and now my daughter wants to try it. But she just gave birth 3 1/2 months ago and is breast feeding only. I am not sure if a low carb diet would be good. Of course I told her to check with her doctor before anything but maybe someone here has an opinion??


I'd definitely tell her to check with her doc.

----------


## **TOP**

> This might seem like an odd question but I have my wife trying this diet and now my daughter wants to try it. But she just gave birth 3 1/2 months ago and is breast feeding only. I am not sure if a low carb diet would be good. Of course I told her to check with her doctor before anything but maybe someone here has an opinion??


I would NOT advocate this diet for pregnant women,breast feeding women,or children.There are way to many things going on in the diet that could effect hormones. Tell her to wait until off breastfeeding for 2 months!...TOP

----------


## baddgsx

Right now my diet is like this 

6am 30g protein/ 41g fat
9am 30/41
12pm 30/41
3pm 30/41
6pm 30/41 
9pm 30g protein only

180g protein / 205g fats / 744P calories + 1845F calories = Total Cal 2589




Should I switch it to this instead? 

6am 30g protein / 51g fat
9am 30/51
12pm 30/51
3pm 30/51
6pm 30 protein / no fat
9pm 30 protein / no fat

Thanks Chris ,

----------


## baddgsx

Im excited about tomarro. The trainer at my gym is going to bring his digital calipers to the gym tomarro and messure my BF%. It would be nice to know exactly what im at and measure monthly to see if there is progress.

----------


## danielli

> Im excited about tomarro. The trainer at my gym is going to bring his digital calipers to the gym tomarro and messure my BF%. It would be nice to know exactly what im at and measure monthly to see if there is progress.


awesome let us know how it goes!

----------


## **TOP**

> Right now my diet is like this 
> 
> 6am 30g protein/ 41g fat
> 9am 30/41
> 12pm 30/41
> 3pm 30/41
> 6pm 30/41 
> 9pm 30g protein only
> 
> ...


If it falls under the 30-35%pro/60-65%fat/ it will be fine.

----------


## baddgsx

TOP , if that percentage is shown on total calories through out the day or total calories on meal one only?

Thanks 
Chris

----------


## edgarr

> Right now my diet is like this 
> 
> 6am 30g protein/ 41g fat
> 9am 30/41
> 12pm 30/41
> 3pm 30/41
> 6pm 30/41 
> 9pm 30g protein only
> 
> ...


what's yout TDEE?

----------


## mg1228

> TOP , if that percentage is shown on total calories through out the day or total calories on meal one only?
> 
> Thanks 
> Chris


throughout the day

----------


## baddgsx

> what's yout TDEE?


my tdee is 3013 
my bmr is 1943.9

----------


## baddgsx

> throughout the day



nice! so i can take just protein the last one or two meals. Is there any benefit to do this? i feel like ive read this a couple months ago.

----------


## baddgsx

Yesterday i had a 5 hour energy drink before the gym around 4:30pm. I worked out for an hour and then did cardio for 20min. I ate the right amount of calories all day but had trouble falling asleep. I was still hungry. Very hungry. 

What do you guys do when this happens to you? whats the right thing to do on this diet? go to bed hungry , grab a snack , plain celery , drink water? or eat enough protein that will stop the hunger. 

Thanks , Chris

----------


## edgarr

I take a cassein protein as my last meal. It is a shake and is a slow digesting protien. If you are serious you can wake up trough out the night and eat

----------


## **TOP**

> I take a cassein protein as my last meal. It is a shake and is a slow digesting protien. If you are serious you can wake up trough out the night and eat


Only if it fits into your calorie requirements! Dont just get up and eat because you can!

----------


## baddgsx

> I take a cassein protein as my last meal. It is a shake and is a slow digesting protien. If you are serious you can wake up trough out the night and eat


I take a cassein shake as my last meal aswell but last night it did not fill me up. I hope waking up and eating some protein (tuna, chicken, or shake) wont mess up the diet at all.

----------


## edgarr

TOP.....first how is your wife doing from her surgery, hope all is well?

In a previous post you say to take 2 pieces of fruit before my whole body workout to kick things off. Are you saying only eat that or would this meal and post workout meal work (assuming the macros fit my requirements)? Thanks

1/2 cup egg whites 
1 scoop whey 
1/2 cup oatmeal 
1 banana 
Cal	438.5	Protein	49.5	Carbs	45.5	Fat	6.5

w/o 

8oz chicken 
1 bagel 
1 banana 
Cal	610	Protein	58	Carbs 86	Fat	3.5

----------


## **TOP**

> TOP.....first how is your wife doing from her surgery, hope all is well?
> 
> In a previous post you say to take 2 pieces of fruit before my whole body workout to kick things off. Are you saying only eat that or would this meal and post workout meal work (assuming the macros fit my requirements)? Thanks
> 
> 1/2 cup egg whites 
> 1 scoop whey 
> 1/2 cup oatmeal 
> 1 banana 
> Cal	438.5	Protein	49.5	Carbs	45.5	Fat	6.5
> ...



The purpose for the fruit is that it has fructose in it ,which is mainly a liver glycogen filler. You want this to dig further into glycogen and kick you out of ketosis. I would stick to the fruit. Fridays calories are not to be worried with to an extreme, if you are suppose to be taking in 2100 calories well thats gonna fly right out the window on friday due to the excessive amounts of carbohydrates when carb loading...TOP

----------


## **TOP**

I still dont think everyone is grasping the concept of the ratio of high fat low protein. I keep seeing posts and getting pms asking if its ok to have 2 scoops of protein 1/2 cup egg whites and some fats. 

Let go of the protein!!!!!! Its like its been drilled into your head that you have to have it! In this diet you shouldnt even have to take 1 protein shake.....EVER!

Get away form the egg whites,get away from the expensive powders,they will not make you the next ron coleman! Consistency is what defines you, not powder in a bottle!! :Rant:

----------


## crazypat123

Hey TOP. are Trans or Saturated Fats bad for getting into ketosis?

also, should i stick to keto without being able to do cardio? 

my foot is currently broken but should be healed by the end of the month

----------


## **TOP**

> hey top. Are trans or saturated fats bad for getting into ketosis?steer clear of trans fats. Sat fats arent to bad they actually help certain hormones in the body,but try to stick mostly with the good ones.
> 
> also, should i stick to keto without being able to do cardio? not sure what you are asking. Are you wanting to know if without cardio will this work? Then yes you can still lose bf without cardio.
> 
> my foot is currently broken but should be healed by the end of the monthhow long has it been since injury? How was it treated?. The only reason i ask is because i work in orthopedic sports medicine.


~top~

----------


## crazypat123

> ~top~


it was a week ago from today, i broke it from getting mad and kicking a ceramic flower pot as hard as i could haha, all they did was x-ray it and confirm a break and put me in an air cast for 6 weeks. they said it was like near a growth plate in the middle of my foot lined up with my pinky toe

also thanks for answering my questions, that helped allot!

----------


## **TOP**

> it was a week ago from today, i broke it from getting mad and kicking a ceramic flower pot as hard as i could haha, all they did was x-ray it and confirm a break and put me in an air cast for 6 weeks. they said it was like near a growth plate in the middle of my foot lined up with my pinky toe
> 
> also thanks for answering my questions, that helped allot!


If they said you had a fracture near your growth plate you must be young! How old are you?

----------


## crazypat123

18 years old

----------


## crazypat123

oh also, if saturated fat is okay, would 2 pieces of bacon in the morning with my eggs hurt? 2 slices is 6 grams protein, 20 grams fat, 7 grams saturated fat

----------


## Damienm05

> oh also, if saturated fat is okay, would 2 pieces of bacon in the morning with my eggs hurt? 2 slices is 6 grams protein, 20 grams fat, 7 grams saturated fat


A high saturated fat intake has many drawbacks with regard to long term health. Regardless, eat as much bacon as you want within your allotted calorie intake - fat is fat on a keto diet with regard to weight loss purposes.

----------


## **TOP**

Edit.

----------


## Failure

I just started taking ALA, it makes me smell HORRIBLE. Is it true it causes a false positive for Ketosis?

----------


## crazypat123

I think this is my last question, would taking fat burners affect this diet in any negative way? 
for example im using razor 8 and CLA - 80, and recoup during workouts,

im worried that the razor 8 and CLA might not be used once im in ketosis or that maybe it will burn the fat needed to be used for energy and i wont get into ketosis????

----------


## edgarr

CONFUSED/FRUSTRATED

This is my 3rd week. Week 1 I lost 5lbs and was not that strict. Weeks 2 and 3 have not lost anything (haven't gained either) and have been very strict. Week 1 my protein source was mainly white meat and tuna and fats came from oils. 2 and 3 switched to red meats, no white or fish. I am going to start a seperate log with pics but why would this be? I was at about 20% BF. I will say that I feel and think I look better and clothes fit better but is that all in my head? My recent ketosis stick had me half way up the chart at 40.

a. was my body shocked by the start of this new diet and starting HIIT cardio week one?
b. am I gaining more lean muscle so weight isn't moving?
c. my body just doesn't like red meat?
d. macros no good?
e. or is all good and this is what everyone means by "paitence"

2 eggs 143	12.6	0.77	9.9 
1 tablespn Flax oil 130 14 
Cal	273	Protein	12.6	Carbs	0.77	Fat	23.9

W/O 

Protein drink 160	40 
Cal	160	Protein	40	Carbs	0	Fat	

6oz uncooked beef steak 330	36 20 
1 avocado 276	4	14	25 
Pork Rinds 80	8 5 
Cal	686	Protein	48	Carbs	14	Fat	50

4oz uncooked Ground Beef 288	19.5 22.7 
10g fish oil 150 15 
Cal	438	Protein	19.5	Carbs	0	Fat 37.7

6oz uncooked beef steak 330	36 20 
5 med asparagus 31	2	3	2 
Cal	361	Protein	38	Carbs	3	Fat	22

1 sccop casein protein 110	24	3	0.5	
Cal	110	Protein	24	Carbs	3	Fat	0.5

*Cal	2028	Protein	182.1	Carbs	20.77	Fat	134.1*

----------


## Damienm05

Have a spoonfull of oil with these shakes of yours. That will get your macros in check. However, it's a combination of A and E. You're fine.

----------


## edgarr

> Have a spoonfull of oil with these shakes of yours. That will get your macros in check. However, it's a combination of A and E. You're fine.


A tbsp full would give me 300 more cals, unless there is a low cal high fat oil? Currently the cals are 500 lower so I think thats where I want to be

----------


## morado02

Hey Top, I got one question, is this diet ok to do it during PCT?

----------


## **TOP**

> Hey Top, I got one question, is this diet ok to do it during PCT?


Opposed to what diet? I wouldnt see an issue with it although you might want to bump your cals. Ive heard guys need to keep cals strong during PCT due to all the changes in the body.But who knows im natural so you might would need to ask someone else what the best diet protocol is for PCT. But in my opinion it would be fine and not pose a problem.

----------


## Damienm05

> Hey Top, I got one question, is this diet ok to do it during PCT?


Yes. You will need an aggressive carb load however. Natural or otherwise, Top is on the money. If your goal is to maintain gains without gaining fat, this diet is ideal assuming you keep the cals high, especially those from fat. Eat pro/fat meals as often as possible throughout the day, get as much cals as possible via EFA's.

----------


## baddgsx

CARB post workout fri!!!!!!! Woooohoooo!! Love this day!

after my workout im going to take 35g protein and 100g waximaize carb for fast absorbtion. How much carbs after that on fri do i need before bed?

And, sorry TOP , im still not fully understanding carb load quantities for fri night and sat. Whats the formula? how do i calculate this?

Thanks , 
Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> CARB post workout fri!!!!!!! Woooohoooo!! Love this day!
> 
> after my workout im going to take 35g protein and 100g waximaize carb for fast absorbtion. How much carbs after that on fri do i need before bed?
> 
> And, sorry TOP , im still not fully understanding carb load quantities for fri night and sat. Whats the formula? how do i calculate this?
> 
> Thanks , 
> Chris


Refer to post #49...TOP

----------


## americanoak

> CONFUSED/FRUSTRATED
> 
> This is my 3rd week. Week 1 I lost 5lbs and was not that strict. Weeks 2 and 3 have not lost anything (haven't gained either) and have been very strict. Week 1 my protein source was mainly white meat and tuna and fats came from oils. 2 and 3 switched to red meats, no white or fish. I am going to start a seperate log with pics but why would this be? I was at about 20% BF. I will say that I feel and think I look better and clothes fit better but is that all in my head? My recent ketosis stick had me half way up the chart at 40.
> 
> a. was my body shocked by the start of this new diet and starting HIIT cardio week one?
> b. am I gaining more lean muscle so weight isn't moving?
> c. my body just doesn't like red meat?
> d. macros no good?
> e. or is all good and this is what everyone means by "paitence"
> ...


I would recomend having 0 carbs on monday, or atleast under 10. Make sure you are eating about 10% under your maintence cals and keeping your fat/protein at a ~ 65/35 ratio. 

Also if the fish and white meat worked for you why dont you try to eat like that again for the next week and see how it goes. It sounds a little odd, but maybe your body reacts differently to red meat.

Before you started the diet you should have found out your maintence calories so if you didnt then def get those in check

----------


## edgarr

> I would recomend having 0 carbs on monday, or atleast under 10. Make sure you are eating about 10% under your maintence cals and keeping your fat/protein at a ~ 65/35 ratio. 
> 
> Also if the fish and white meat worked for you why dont you try to eat like that again for the next week and see how it goes. It sounds a little odd, but maybe your body reacts differently to red meat.
> 
> Before you started the diet you should have found out your maintence calories so if you didnt then def get those in check


TDEE is 2600

I am going to stick with red meat one more week and then go back to white/fish and compare. I am giving this a total of 16 weeks so will keep everyone posted. Today is carb up day!!

----------


## baddgsx

> Refer to post #49...TOP


thanks! i tweaked my eating plan for fri and sat. The bagel isle smelled soooo good today!!!

----------


## danielli

Hey TOP, looking at your avatar, if those are your abs (or if yours look anything like them) you prob never touch it, but how does beer factor in? TOmorrow is super bowl, and I'll probably have a couple at a super bowl party. SHould I count those as carbs for the load??

Thanks!

----------


## crazypat123

> Hey TOP, looking at your avatar, if those are your abs (or if yours look anything like them) you prob never touch it, but how does beer factor in? TOmorrow is super bowl, and I'll probably have a couple at a super bowl party. SHould I count those as carbs for the load??
> 
> Thanks!


dont drink beer!!! they lower testosterone levels and increase estrogen levels!! maybe have a few shots?

----------


## **TOP**

> Hey TOP, looking at your avatar, if those are your abs (or if yours look anything like them) you prob never touch it, but how does beer factor in? TOmorrow is super bowl, and I'll probably have a couple at a super bowl party. SHould I count those as carbs for the load??
> 
> Thanks!


Yes they are mine, i built them. As far as me drinking alchohol no i dont,i hate the way it taste and what it does to my body.Its harder for me to stay away from other things than alchohol,ive never cared for it like others do. If you wanna drink,drink.And yes count that for your carb load.But like crazypat said it reduces test ,increases estrogen and cortisol and dehydrates the body. If you are on any form of AAS and drink alchohol its very counter productive. If you want the best out of your body i suggest not doing it...TOP

----------


## baddgsx

> dont drink beer!!! they lower testosterone levels and increase estrogen levels!! maybe have a few shots?


no rec drugs talk please, marcus300

----------


## danielli

> dont drink beer!!! they lower testosterone levels and increase estrogen levels!! maybe have a few shots?





> Yes they are mine, i built them. As far as me drinking alchohol no i dont,i hate the way it taste and what it does to my body.Its harder for me to stay away from other things than alchohol,ive never cared for it like others do. If you wanna drink,drink.And yes count that for your carb load.But like crazypat said it reduces test ,increases estrogen and cortisol and dehydrates the body. If you are on any form of AAS and drink alchohol its very counter productive. If you want the best out of your body i suggest not doing it...TOP


Thanks guys. 

And TOP - great abs man!

----------


## crazypat123

> Yes they are mine, i built them. As far as me drinking alchohol no i dont,i hate the way it taste and what it does to my body.Its harder for me to stay away from other things than alchohol,ive never cared for it like others do. If you wanna drink,drink.And yes count that for your carb load.But like crazypat said it reduces test ,increases estrogen and cortisol and dehydrates the body. If you are on any form of AAS and drink alchohol its very counter productive. If you want the best out of your body i suggest not doing it...TOP


i heard somewhere that if your on gear and you drink in can cause a heart attack aswell, dont quote that by me though i dont know if its true

----------


## crazypat123

no rec drugs talk please, marcus300

----------


## Damienm05

no rec drug talk please, marcus300

----------


## americanoak

smoking + going to the gym = bad idea

----------


## baddgsx

Are any of you guys eating broccoli or cauliflower on ckd? Im taking some vitamin shop multivitamins in the morning. Is that enough to not need vegetables like broccoli or cauliflower?

Thanks , 
Chris

----------


## run_n_fool

I eat broccoli while on keto. About a cup at a time.

----------


## Damienm05

> Are any of you guys eating broccoli or cauliflower on ckd? Im taking some vitamin shop multivitamins in the morning. Is that enough to not need vegetables like broccoli or cauliflower?
> 
> Thanks , 
> Chris


Those are the best veggies to eat on keto. High in nutrients and fiber, really no net calories or carbs. Asparagus is a good one too. Really you should be getting all of your allowed carbs from veggies, up to 20g per day after subtracting fiber content. A multivitamin is not enough, you need to eat lots of veggies with any bodybuilding diet, especially keto due to the lack of overall variety. They are also a good way of curbing hunger while maintaining a caloric deficit.

----------


## baddgsx

How is a tablespoon of mayo measured properly? do i spoon the mayo and then use a butter knife to straight edge the top? I feel im adding too much mayo to my chicken and tuna
 
thanks , Chris

----------


## Damienm05

> How is a tablespoon of mayo measured properly? do i spoon the mayo and then use a butter knife to straight edge the top? I feel im adding too much mayo to my chicken and tuna
> 
> thanks , Chris


Just smooth it on the inner rim of the jar as you pull out. That sounds sexual.

----------


## baddgsx

> Just smooth it on the inner rim of the jar as you pull out. That sounds sexual.


Ok , thanks , i was using alittle more than i should have then. it did sound sexual , lol ,

thanks ,
Chris

----------


## baddgsx

What kind of exercises are you guys doing for Fridays full body workout? Isolated? , Compound? , or little of both? :Hmmmm: 



Some compound exercises i was thinking of doing on that day. 

Shoulders: Military Press, Hang Clean and Press, Arnold Press 

Arms: Close-Grip Chin-Up (w/palms facing toward your face), Dips, Close-Grip Pushup, Twisting Dumbbell Curl 

Legs: Barbell Squat, Deadlift, Lunges 

Back: Chin-Up, Pull-Down, Deadlift, Row 

Chest: Push-Up, Dips, Bench Press 




Chris

----------


## baddgsx

pissed on some stix this morning and the color was very light. almost negative , what gives? i thought it would be dark as hell by now. 

what can i be eating that has enough carbs to slow the keto process?

this is all i eat during the week and i dont cheat

tuna
mayo 
chicken
flax seed oil
medium DD coffee/skim milk/2 sweet and low packets
2 cups of Tea
water
olives
half cup broccoli
multivitamin

Show i knock something out?

Thanks , Chris

----------


## baddgsx

Nevermind , i pissed on a ketostix 30 minutes after doing 20 minutes of cardio and it was alot darker than the previous tests. Really makes sence though. 

Chris

----------


## **TOP**

If your stick is remotely showing ,it means you are in ketosis. The stick only shows ketones NOT being used so actually you dont want it to be dark you want it to be barely seen. This would mean you are in ketosis,there isnt to many ketones floating around for it to be acidic,and your body is burning them...TOP

----------


## marcus300

No rec drug talk please, ive edited the post's, 

Thanks

----------


## baddgsx

> If your stick is remotely showing ,it means you are in ketosis. The stick only shows ketones NOT being used so actually you dont want it to be dark you want it to be barely seen. This would mean you are in ketosis,there isnt to many ketones floating around for it to be acidic,and your body is burning them...TOP


thanks Top!

----------


## baddgsx

> No rec drug talk please, ive edited the post's, 
> 
> Thanks


sorry

----------


## edgarr

> If your stick is remotely showing ,it means you are in ketosis. The stick only shows ketones NOT being used so actually you dont want it to be dark you want it to be barely seen. This would mean you are in ketosis,there isnt to many ketones floating around for it to be acidic,and your body is burning them...TOP


so on my sticks the lightest color says negative and then you have other colors with numbers 5,15,40,80,160 and they say trace, small moderate, large and gradually get darker. So I want to be negative??

----------


## xtinaunasty

I am so discouraged. I have been suffering for the past 4 days (18-25 carbs a day) and I bought KetoStix to make sure I was in ketosis -- apparently I'm not, it didn't change color. What happened? What should I do?

----------


## xtinaunasty

> If your stick is remotely showing ,it means you are in ketosis. The stick only shows ketones NOT being used so actually you dont want it to be dark you want it to be barely seen. This would mean you are in ketosis,there isnt to many ketones floating around for it to be acidic,and your body is burning them...TOP


Oh so if the stick is light pink it means I am in ketosis?

----------


## **TOP**

> Oh so if the stick is light pink it means I am in ketosis?


Yes.

----------


## **TOP**

> so on my sticks the lightest color says negative and then you have other colors with numbers 5,15,40,80,160 and they say trace, small moderate, large and gradually get darker. So I want to be negative??


Im beginning to wonder why im still posting,if people arent going to read the entire thread. Ive said it a thousand times ketosis is a side effect of having to low of carbs,it should not be sought after its not that big of a deal. If carbs are limited the body wont have a choice but to use bf for fuel!

To answer the question the best place to be though is low. This means your body is using ketones for fuel. too many ketones showing on the sticks means that your body is making many and dumping them and that can cause the blood to become acidic,this is one of the reasons why when you tell people your on a keto diet they say "isnt that dangerous?"

----------


## crazypat123

> No rec drug talk please, ive edited the post's, 
> 
> Thanks


sorry marcus  :Frown:

----------


## danielli

> ....too many ketones showing on the sticks means that your body is making many and dumping them and that can cause the blood to become acidic...


So now I'm a bit confused TOP. By Wednesday, i'm back into the dark color on the ketostix, shoudl I up my carbs during the week? Right now I'm at about 20-25 max.

Sorry, I never really thought this was a big deal until your last comment.

----------


## suprman09

I have been on keto for about a month now. I notice after my fifth meal of the day I am no longer hungry. Should I try and eat anway? Is my body trying to tell me something? I aim for 50g pro and 20-25g fat per meal. 5'10", 210, unsure BF. 5 to 6 meals a day.

----------


## **TOP**

> So now I'm a bit confused TOP. By Wednesday, i'm back into the dark color on the ketostix, shoudl I up my carbs during the week? Right now I'm at about 20-25 max.
> 
> Sorry, I never really thought this was a big deal until your last comment.


Over time this could pose to be a problem if you were to stay in ketosis for long periods. Diets like atkins,never had you doing carb ups. The diet was always keto,this is the reason many feel its bad on your kidneys. But because we cycle and carb up ,we are only in ketosis for a limited time. Dont worry your not gonna die.(I hope LOL)...TOP

----------


## **TOP**

> I have been on keto for about a month now. I notice after my fifth meal of the day I am no longer hungry. Should I try and eat anway? Is my body trying to tell me something? I aim for 50g pro and 20-25g fat per meal. 5'10", 210, unsure BF. 5 to 6 meals a day.


This comment has me worried! Are you counting calories or just eating blindly? You cant just eat whenever and expect results. They need to be carefully calculated. Post your diet...TOP

----------


## danielli

> Over time this could pose to be a problem if you were to stay in ketosis for long periods. Diets like atkins,never had you doing carb ups. The diet was always keto,this is the reason many feel its bad on your kidneys. But because we cycle and carb up ,we are only in ketosis for a limited time. Dont worry your not gonna die.(I hope LOL)...TOP


thanks TOP !!

----------


## suprman09

> This comment has me worried! Are you counting calories or just eating blindly? You cant just eat whenever and expect results. They need to be carefully calculated. Post your diet...TOP


Here is the diet:

I weigh everything uncooked

Meal 1: 8 oz ground beef, 1 slice american cheese- 51p, 21f, 2c

Meal 2: 1.5 scoops ON pro complex, 1/3 cup pistachios, 1 slice cheese- 58p, 25f,11c

Meal 3: 8 oz chicken, 1 slice cheese, 1 oz. peanuts- 56p, 24f, 9c

Meal 4: Meal 1,2, or 3

Meal 5: Meal 1, 2, 3

Average macros a day: 275p, 115f, 45 c,
Cals: 2315

I should be eating about 2700 cals a day according to my my TDEE-500, but I am just not hungry after my 5th meal. Sometimes I substitute my proteins for tuna and eggs and I adjust the fat content from there. I really aim for 50p and 20-25f a meal. Thanks for the help TOP.

----------


## Damienm05

How do people have issues/confusion with this diet?! I put my 28% bf lifting partner on this diet a few days after initially reading Top's post. He's a lazy, fat ex-linebacker who's never dieted - also down 16 lbs. in just under a month, while seeing an increase in his squat/dead-lift unbelievably. The only rules he sticks to is that he counts cals and doesn't eat above his TDEE (minor deficit) and he limits the carb up to healthy food and doesn't use it as an excuse to eat sugary food. That said, he eats plenty of bacon and such, lol. 

Just don't over-eat, over-think, or cheat. You will lose weight, you're body won't have a f*ckin choice!

----------


## **TOP**

> Here is the diet:
> 
> I weigh everything uncooked
> 
> Meal 1: 8 oz ground beef, 1 slice american cheese- 51p, 21f, 2c
> 
> Meal 2: 1.5 scoops ON pro complex, 1/3 cup pistachios, 1 slice cheese- 58p, 25f,11c
> 
> Meal 3: 8 oz chicken, 1 slice cheese, 1 oz. peanuts- 56p, 24f, 9c
> ...


Well first of all your diet is kinda vague you skimp on meals 3,4,5. But if the macros are the same then ok.

For the bad news you obviously didnt read the whole thread, i said your ratio must be *fat-60-65% pro 30-35% and whatever is left can be carbs!!*You however have 
Fat (45%) Carbs (8%) 
Protein (48%) 

This must be fixed in order for it to work! Up the fat lower the protein immediately...TOP

----------


## baddgsx

I keep my weight tracked by this pretty cool app for the iphone called iFitness. It was a couple bucks. Heres my graph of the weight change since i started dieting. Notice the change at 1/24/10. I started the CKD there and the plot looks different. You can see the spike on the carb up weekend.

Chris

----------


## **TOP**

^And how is your strength,still strong?

----------


## theraptor

i got a question on carbs if im eating fiberous veggies do i subtract the fibre from my net carbs?

----------


## baddgsx

> ^And how is your strength,still strong?


i just started my PCT's today. I was stronger a month ago, but thats cause of the aas. I dont let that stop me from pushing hard.

----------


## edgarr

> i just started my PCT's today. I was stronger a month ago, but thats cause of the aas. I dont let that stop me from pushing hard.


what was your cycle and were you on CKD the whole cycle?

----------


## Damienm05

> i got a question on carbs if im eating fiberous veggies do i subtract the fibre from my net carbs?


Yes.

----------


## baddgsx

> what was your cycle and were you on CKD the whole cycle?


I did a cycle of deca and test ethanate. 600 of each , deca for 3 months , test for 3.5 months. No ckd , i didnt watch diet , just ate everything i could. Next time im going to go a cleaner route diet wise. It will make cutting alot easier i believe.

Chris

----------


## baddgsx

Top , from looking at that graph, do you think that I loosing weight at a good speed? I'm noticing that the bodyfat around the side of the abs And love handles are disapearing first.


Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> Top , from looking at that graph, do you think that I loosing weight at a good speed? I'm noticing that the bodyfat around the side of the abs And love handles are disapearing first.
> 
> 
> Chris


Im pleased wth it.You cant ask for anymore,looks good to me!! Keep it goin!!

----------


## baddgsx

Nice , then ill keep at it and see how it goes. This friday ill post an updated pic to see what you guys think. 

Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> Nice , then ill keep at it and see how it goes. This friday ill post an updated pic to see what you guys think. 
> 
> Chris


You have any pics of a before diet?If so post that also

----------


## baddgsx

> You have any pics of a before diet?If so post that also


I have only the ones from this thread http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...99#post5035999


now looking back at these , wow. 3 weeks of ckd shows a difference , not what im aiming at , but its working. 

Chris

----------


## americanoak

hey baddgsx you should post some pics of ur progress

----------


## baddgsx

> hey baddgsx you should post some pics of ur progress


Friday , I'll post an updated pic

----------


## baddgsx

Someone posted earlier about how their feces is more solid. I dont poop as often as i did before this diet but im getting the same results, solid poops. 

I felt like i was giving birth this morning!! Is there anything that i should be doing to fix this , or is it just normal. Maybe i need some more fiberous vegetables? 


Thanks, 
Chris

----------


## americanoak

lol ummmm stool softners? not sure

----------


## edgarr

> Yes.


So are you saying that if 1 cup of cooked asparagus is 7.5g carbs but fiber is 3.6g I would only count 3.9g of carbs for that meal???

----------


## americanoak

> So are you saying that if 1 cup of cooked asparagus is 7.5g carbs but fiber is 3.6g I would only count 3.9g of carbs for that meal???


you count all the crabs.. 7.5g

Im pretty sure.
Fiber is a source of carb.

----------


## **TOP**

I count all carbs,no exceptions

----------


## edgarr

week 4 gone. looking better and stronger but still at the same weight after week 1. I have only lost 5 lbs. Is this normal?

----------


## mg1228

hey Top, wife is 6.5 weeks into diet--starting stats 5'9 158.7lb bf% prob 30

today 138.2lb bf% prob 21 (got electronic calipers) not real accurate but constistent

been doin am cardio for 45 min 3-5 times a week--no weights

instead of 2 refeed days--shes been doin two carb/cheat meals on sat every week

just thought id give u an update

----------


## baddgsx

I bought some KRE-alkalyn 1500 , some new creatine on the market the guy at the supplement store said is supposed to be really good. 1g of this is supposibly egual to 10grams of powder form and doesnt turn into creatinine. I want to take creatine on my carb load day and the powder version tastes too awful for me. So i figured pill form is the only way ill down some. Taking it only on the weekends should last a while for me. 

Chris

----------


## HeavyL

this diet has been working well for me lately, i had an issue with going to excessive on carb load days. but i think i have that figured out

----------


## **TOP**

> hey Top, wife is 6.5 weeks into diet--starting stats 5'9 158.7lb bf% prob 30
> 
> today 138.2lb bf% prob 21 (got electronic calipers) not real accurate but constistent
> 
> been doin am cardio for 45 min 3-5 times a week--no weights
> 
> instead of 2 refeed days--shes been doin two carb/cheat meals on sat every week
> 
> just thought id give u an update


Makes me happy for her to read things like this!! Good job to the both of you!!

----------


## edgarr

I can't believe the weight drops. I am going to have to mix things up. I just can't believe I am losing BF without losing weight. 

Let me ask this, my first meal which is 2 eggs and 1 tablespoon of udo's then I have a 2 hour commute which I was lifting then taking in 40 grams protein. Would I be better off doing my cardio (45-50 mins LIT) then (figure 2 hours is enough to get to an empty stomach) and then taking 1 tablespoon Udo's right after? Then I would eat meals 3 and 4 and then workout. 

My diet is dialed in at 60-35-5, should I raise it to 65-30-5? 

Again I think I look better, but my body isn't changing quick enough. Don't get me wrong I would love to be 180lbs which is where I'm at now but at 10-12% vs 16-18%

Let me know if you need more info, thanks

----------


## xtinaunasty

> I can't believe the weight drops. I am going to have to mix things up. I just can't believe I am losing BF without losing weight. 
> 
> Let me ask this, my first meal which is 2 eggs and 1 tablespoon of udo's then I have a 2 hour commute which I was lifting then taking in 40 grams protein. Would I be better off doing my cardio (45-50 mins LIT) then (figure 2 hours is enough to get to an empty stomach) and then taking 1 tablespoon Udo's right after? Then I would eat meals 3 and 4 and then workout. 
> 
> My diet is dialed in at 60-35-5, should I raise it to 65-30-5? 
> 
> Again I think I look better, but my body isn't changing quick enough. Don't get me wrong I would love to be 180lbs which is where I'm at now but at 10-12% vs 16-18%
> 
> Let me know if you need more info, thanks


dont over think it! if you are losing fat keep doing what you're doing

----------


## americanoak

in the book bodypus the ratios looked as you put it edgarr:

65/~35/2-5

but if you are losing body fat then you must be doing something right. I wouldnt worry too much if its working out for you. Just have paitence, everyone wants their bf to drop over night, unfortunetly it doesnt work like that  :Frown:

----------


## edgarr

> dont over think it! if you are losing fat keep doing what you're doing





> in the book bodypus the ratios looked as you put it edgarr:
> 
> 65/~35/2-5
> 
> but if you are losing body fat then you must be doing something right. I wouldnt worry too much if its working out for you. Just have paitence, everyone wants their bf to drop over night, unfortunetly it doesnt work like that


Thanks! That keeps me motivated!

----------


## americanoak

no problem. Keep up the hard work

----------


## gbrice75

I am seroiusly considering doing this CKD diet now... if I choose to do so, I will start next Monday. I am almost 2 months into this 40/40/20 routine, and don't feel it's working very well for me. I have managed to lose roughly 6-8lbs, but I don't look much different, strength has gone down in the gym considerably and so I have to question how much of that loss was fat and how much was muscle. I have read over and over again that some people are very carb-sensitive; I am beginning to think I am one of those unlucky people.

Naturally I have some questions about my specific situation and incorporating this diet. If some of these questions have already been asked/addressed, I apologize in advance; I did read through about 4 pages before my head started smoking! Top, you have been wonderful in responding to all of these, I can't thank you enough!

Here is my current weight routine - obvioulsy i'd have to modify for the CKD diet:

*Monday - Chest and Tri's, followed by 30 mins cardio
Tuesday - Back and Bi's, followed by 30 mins cardio
Wednesday - 30-45 mins of cardio
Thursday - Legs, followed by 30 mins cardio
Friday - Shoulders, followed by 30 mins cardio
Sat and Sun - OFF
I am on a 40/40/20 diet and taking a 1/2 refeed day on Sunday's.* 

Here are the changes I assume i'd have to make:

*Monday - Chest and Tri's, followed by 30 mins cardio
Tuesday - Back and Bi's, followed by 30 mins cardio
Wednesday - Legs, followed by 30 mins cardio
Thursday - 30-45 mins cardio
Friday - Full Body Workout (this is when i'd hit shoulders as usual), followed by 30 mins cardio. Question here - I understand the point of the full body workout helping to deplete that last bit of glycogen store, but isn't this counter-productive to your actual lifts by not allowing enough rest? In other words I'd be doing legs again when I just did the Wednesday? I'm not understanding this part - can somebody elaborate on what a full body workout would be like (i.e. low intensity? 1 set per body part?)*

*2000 calories daily*
*25g or 100 calories from carbs*
*300g or 1200 calories from fat*
*150g or 600 calories from protein (isn't this too low? This isn't even 1g per lb. of LBM)*

I would VERY much like to continue on the CKD throughout Friday, and then just take Sat. and Sun. for the carb loading... but I recall reading TOP saying this is a bad idea. Can anybody confirm this, and possibly explain why? 

My other option is to drop CKD right after my full body workout and start the carb loading immediately... throughout Friday, all of Saturday, and about 1/2 way into Sunday... with carbs tapering off mid-day Sunday. Please keep in mind I workout at 5:30am, so my carb loading would start Friday at around 7:30am - that would mean ALL day Friday, ALL day Saturday, and some of Sunday - 2.5 days seems like a bit much, particularly with my alleged sensitivity to carbs.

Guys, ANY help you can offer me to tweak this would be greatly appreciated. I want to get off on the right foot here, this is really my last ditch effort at cutting because so far, nothing else has proven much for me. I think 2 solid months on 40/40/20 is enough to see something, and I don't feel it's working out.

I am going to Mexico on April 14th and am hoping to get close to 10% before I leave - is this reasonable? I believe i'm around 14% - 15% now - check my most recent pics in he members pictures section and let me know what you think. Thank you!

PS - if anybody can post or PM me a sample of their CKD diet, I would be very grateful. This is uncharted territory for me and I am very hesitant that I will F it up!

----------


## **TOP**

^You have a pm sir!

----------


## csavage0

Just started the Ckd did the diet before it works wonderful. Should I go 2 weeks before I start the carb up meals once a week? My stats are 22 yo 6ft 1 234 lbs about 14 %. I'm running in the morning or should I say very slow jog for 60 min burning 900 cal give or take. Lifting on a 5 day split. After doing the no carb when my carb up meal comes I'm currious to how many carbs I want to take in for this carb up meal ? Would 2 cups of oats or a ft long sub from subway (chickenbreast) be too much. Oh btw I'm only eating 2300 cal a day can I bump this up? 2300 is my BMR and I only eat that much bc my job is at a desk

----------


## edgarr

> week 4 gone. looking better and stronger but still at the same weight after week 1. I have only lost 5 lbs. Is this normal?


Made some changes now the diet is 65% fat 30% pro and 5% carb with just less the 21g of carbs per day. 

These macros have me at 714 under TDEE if I use Moderatley Active or 416 under if I use lightly active. I plan on keeping up my 5 day workout routine with 5 day twice a day cardio so my guess is that I should see some drops here in the next couple of weeks or something is wrong.

I carb up Sat through mid day Sunday. Should I focus on just being at TDEE on this carb up, I think I read that cals really weren't that important on the carb up days??

----------


## gbrice75

> Made some changes now the diet is 65% fat 30% pro and 5% carb


This is exactly what I was planning, on 2000 calories a day.

----------


## edgarr

> This is exactly what I was planning, on 2000 calories a day.


I was at 60-35-5 before and just over 2000, now I'm at 1930 cals

----------


## gbrice75

> I was at 60-35-5 before and just over 2000, now I'm at 1930 cals


Nice, it's good to have somebody else doing something so close to what you're doing. What do you think so far? Were you saying above that after 4 weeks you've only lost a total of 5lbs? If so, is it possible you've made any gains in the gym? Doubtful at 2000 calories, but asking because 5lbs loss in 4 weeks does sound kind of low for this diet.

Would you mind giving me a glimpse of your diet?

----------


## gbrice75

So i've been reading 'The Anabolic Diet' (thanks TOP!!!), and i'm only on page 26 of 112, but from what i'm gathering from it so far, ANYTHING GOES on the weekend carb up... is this true? Quoting the book, "if you want to have pizza and a beer, that's ok". This is contrary to what i've read on this thread which is to keep fats very low during the carb up phase. It makes sense to keep fats low, but i'd just like clarification.

Second - i'm wondering how clean one needs to eat on this diet during the week? I would imagine the cleaner the food (i.e. chicken breast instead of bacon), the better the results. BUT this would make it much more difficult (for me) to stay on the diet. Giving up carbs is much easier knowing you can eat bacon, taylor ham, butter, etc. How clean do you need to eat?

Finally, i'm looking for a relatively complete list of acceptable foods. This may be in the book and I just haven't gotten to that point yet - if so, let me know. However I am seriously considering starting this on Monday and want to do my homework and be ultra prepared, no surprises a week or two in. Assuming carbs need to be kept very low (30g or less?) - it seems like even natty PB is out of the question as it has about 6g carbs, 2 of which are sugar. That sucks! Also, with a 65/30/5 split (F/P/C), it would seem difficult to get in that much fat without getting more protein just by default? I mean I could always just consume olive oil to make up additional fat, but who does that?

Any help is greatly appreciated, as always. Also - if I should start my own thread and/or move this to it, let me know - I do not mean to hijack and make this thread about me. 

Based on your feedback, i will be posting a proposed meal plan. Thanks!!!

----------


## edgarr

> Nice, it's good to have somebody else doing something so close to what you're doing. What do you think so far? Were you saying above that after 4 weeks you've only lost a total of 5lbs? If so, is it possible you've made any gains in the gym? Doubtful at 2000 calories, but asking because 5lbs loss in 4 weeks does sound kind of low for this diet.
> 
> Would you mind giving me a glimpse of your diet?


I'll post my diet later. 

I have been a little disappointed in the weight loss but I have gotten stronger in the gym and I do look better. I've been losing BF so can not complain. I really want to stay around 175-180 and just be around 12% or less. So it is working.

----------


## gbrice75

> I'll post my diet later. 
> 
> I have been a little disappointed in the weight loss but I have gotten stronger in the gym and I do look better. I've been losing BF so can not complain. I really want to stay around 175-180 and just be around 12% or less. So it is working.


When you say you've been disappointed in the weight loss, do you mean specifically your weight in terms of numbers? If so, with all due respect I think that's a bit misguided - you say you're getting stronger and look better, so if that's true and you are actually losing bodyfat, then you MUST be gaining muscle as well which is UNBELIVABLE at 2000 calories! Worst case scenario you're not losing muscle which is the best one could hope for on a low cal/cutting diet. When can we see some pics?

----------


## **TOP**

> so i've been reading 'the anabolic diet' (thanks top!!!), and i'm only on page 26 of 112, but from what i'm gathering from it so far, anything goes on the weekend carb up... Is this true? Quoting the book, "if you want to have pizza and a beer, that's ok". This is contrary to what i've read on this thread which is to keep fats very low during the carb up phase. It makes sense to keep fats low, but i'd just like clarification.i dont agree with this,if i were you id read the bodyopus book first. Its a more in depth look at what needs to happen.also the anabolic diet is targeted more towards non disciplined as to where the bodyopus is targeted towards the the person wanting the most out of themselves.
> 
> second - i'm wondering how clean one needs to eat on this diet during the week? I would imagine the cleaner the food (i.e. Chicken breast instead of bacon), the better the results. But this would make it much more difficult (for me) to stay on the diet. Giving up carbs is much easier knowing you can eat bacon, taylor ham, butter, etc. How clean do you need to eat? whole eggs bacon and sausage are not the enemy people makie them out to be. Keep reading the book!
> 
> finally, i'm looking for a relatively complete list of acceptable foods. This may be in the book and i just haven't gotten to that point yet - if so, let me know.keep reading the back of the book even has daily calorie meal plans. however i am seriously considering starting this on monday and want to do my homework and be ultra prepared, no surprises a week or two in. Assuming carbs need to be kept very low (30g or less?) - it seems like even natty pb is out of the question as it has about 6g carbs, 2 of which are sugar. That sucks! Also, with a 65/30/5 split (f/p/c), it would seem difficult to get in that much fat without getting more protein just by default? I mean i could always just consume olive oil to make up additional fat, but who does that?
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated, as always. Also - if i should start my own thread and/or move this to it, let me know - i do not mean to hijack and make this thread about me.  you dont have to start an additional thread keep it here.
> 
> Based on your feedback, i will be posting a proposed meal plan. Thanks!!!


~top

----------


## HeavyL

Hey top..
Ive been experimenting with calories per day. My goal is maximum fat loss, my question is with my weight being at 184 lbs by the way im thinking about increasing or decreasing my calories to achieve the most efficient fat loss method. so how few calories is too few would you say? ive been eating around 2000/ day, all within good keto percentages. so im going to bump it up to 2300 for a few days and then drop it too 1800 andcheck my progress. how do you feel about this?

my workout's are as follows 60 min's empty stomach cardio every day.. and 5 lifts per week, that are later in the day

----------


## **TOP**

> Hey top..
> Ive been experimenting with calories per day. My goal is maximum fat loss, my question is with my weight being at 184 lbs by the way im thinking about increasing or decreasing my calories to achieve the most efficient fat loss method. so how few calories is too few would you say? ive been eating around 2000/ day, all within good keto percentages. so im going to bump it up to 2300 for a few days and then drop it too 1800 andcheck my progress. how do you feel about this?
> 
> my workout's are as follows 60 min's empty stomach cardio every day.. and 5 lifts per week, that are later in the day


Whats your TDEE?

----------


## gbrice75

Thanks for the reply TOP - I would have liked your answer better if you told me pizza and beer are ok! =) I get it though man, and I will look into the Bodyopus book as well.

I've been reading on and found a couple more parts that caused me to raise an eyebrow. For instance, The book suggests that a good starting point/maintenance for daily calories is your bodyweight x 18 - for me that's 3,300 calories - WAAAAYYY above my maintenance! I'd go with that number if I were on a bulk or something! They're also suggesting to stay on a bulk phase until BF% reaches 10% - as if we're all below 10%! My purpose is to GET TO 10%!!! BTW - i'm not complaining, just pointing this stuff out. I'm enjoying the read.

One very important question though - I am going to Mexio in 1.5 months and was planning on starting this diet on Monday. I wanted to get rid of as much bodyfat as possible before leaving. However, would it be bad/counter-productive to go on this diet for a month and a half, then go to Mexico for a week where i'll be eating and drinking everything (carbs) under the sun? I would of course go right back to the CKD diet when I get home.

So the question is - should I start this Monday, or just wait until I return from Mexico?

----------


## HeavyL

not too sure which numbers to use.. im a student so the only physical activity is from 1 hour of cardio a day and about 5o min of weights 5 days per week. weight 184 bf 17 about

----------


## edgarr

> When you say you've been disappointed in the weight loss, do you mean specifically your weight in terms of numbers? If so, with all due respect I think that's a bit misguided - you say you're getting stronger and look better, so if that's true and you are actually losing bodyfat, then you MUST be gaining muscle as well which is UNBELIVABLE at 2000 calories! Worst case scenario you're not losing muscle which is the best one could hope for on a low cal/cutting diet. When can we see some pics?


I shouldn't say disappointed, I should say confused or frustrated. When I step on the scale and there is not much change but I just need to keep telling myself that the mirror is a better judge. Keep in mind that when I started this diet it was after a long vacation (injury) from the gym so I was prob over 20% bf so maybe that is why I am gaining muscle and strength. I have some pics over the summer (while still on vacation) that I will post as before pics.

----------


## gbrice75

> I shouldn't say disappointed, I should say confused or frustrated. When I step on the scale and there is not much change but I just need to keep telling myself that the mirror is a better judge. Keep in mind that when I started this diet it was after a long vacation (injury) from the gym so I was prob over 20% bf so maybe that is why I am gaining muscle and strength. I have some pics over the summer (while still on vacation) that I will post as before pics.


I hear you bro, i'm the king of second guessing myself. I always think everything works for everyone else but not me. All I can tell you is (something I can preach but not practice apparantly!) to stick with it, especially if you like what you're seeing in the mirror. Bodyweight should be the least of your concerns!

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## Spike85

I have been doing the ckd diet for 3 weeks now. I am running 20 carbs a day which are from the vegetables I eat. I work out 4-5 days a week, 30-40 mins of cardio everyday. I do a full body workout on Saturday mornings followed by starting carbs. I eat low fat and high carbs until I go to bed sunday night. I have lost about 7 lbs already, and I have about 10 more to lose until im satisfied. 

My only concern is that Monday morning I am 7lbs heavier than I was on the saturday before my carb up period. I know that it is natural to have those gains, but it takes me a couple days to lose it again. Also mondays I am very iritated while my body adjusts to low carbs again, is that natural. Should I just run a straight Keto diet or stick with the ckd?

Also I am a little low on my cal intake, about 800 less than my TDEE. My macros are in check and I piss on a ketostick durning the week to make sure my body is in ketosis.

Stats:

25 years old male
200lbs (lowest so far on diet)
20% bf
TDEE 3008.50
Eating about 2100-2200 cals a day
Macros- 2200 cals, 55 % fat, 40 % protien and 5% carb

Thanks

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## Damienm05

> I have been doing the ckd diet for 3 weeks now. I am running 20 carbs a day which are from the vegetables I eat. I work out 4-5 days a week, 30-40 mins of cardio everyday. I do a full body workout on Saturday mornings followed by starting carbs. I eat low fat and high carbs until I go to bed sunday night. I have lost about 7 lbs already, and I have about 10 more to lose until im satisfied. 
> 
> My only concern is that Monday morning I am 7lbs heavier than I was on the saturday before my carb up period. I know that it is natural to have those gains, but it takes me a couple days to lose it again. Also mondays I am very iritated while my body adjusts to low carbs again, is that natural. Should I just run a straight Keto diet or stick with the ckd?
> 
> Also I am a little low on my cal intake, about 800 less than my TDEE. My macros are in check and I piss on a ketostick durning the week to make sure my body is in ketosis.
> 
> Stats:
> 
> 25 years old male
> ...


You're fat is too low. Not by much, but I'd try getting 65% from fat as instructed by Top. 10% may help you get into keto faster and help your body adjust. Also, you're only 3 weeks in, carbs are still your body's preferred energy source. Give it another 2-3 weeks and you'll be more accustomed to using fats as your primary. 

Also, some poeple do it, but unless you've got a ton of lean mass to preserve or you're trying to make decent gains, I don't see any need for a 2 day carb-up. In other words, try a 1-day carb up this week and see how much faster that carb-induced water weight drops. But 7 lbs. in 3 weeks is pretty nice man, imagine if you limited your carb-up to a 12-hour period as preferred by the author of this particular CKD.

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## Spike85

Thats some really good advice, ill defintley try that out. So I will carb up right after my full body workout on saturday then go back to low carb on sunday.

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## **TOP**

SPIKE if you are wanting faster fat loss you dont even have to carb up,Although by doing this your strength will suffer as will your gains.By doing this its a regular keto,or ATKINS.

Ive tried the 6 days no carbs keto, 1 day carb load and ive noticed that for me its not enough time to succesfully refire the engine! I feel as if im on a low carb diet my strength suffers and for that reason i stick to a 2 day carb load.

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## csavage0

> Just started the Ckd did the diet before it works wonderful. Should I go 2 weeks before I start the carb up meals once a week? My stats are 22 yo 6ft 1 234 lbs about 14 %. I'm running in the morning or should I say very slow jog for 60 min burning 900 cal give or take. Lifting on a 5 day split. After doing the no carb when my carb up meal comes I'm currious to how many carbs I want to take in for this carb up meal ? Would 2 cups of oats or a ft long sub from subway (chickenbreast) be too much. Oh btw I'm only eating 2300 cal a day can I bump this up? 2300 is my BMR and I only eat that much bc my job is at a desk


Top please give your expert advice. Thanks man in advance  :Welcome:

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## Damienm05

Top, I've heard that prolonged ketosis with no carb reload can really F-up one's ability to properly metabolize carbs in the future? Any truth to this?

----------


## **TOP**

> just started the ckd did the diet before it works wonderful. Should i go 2 weeks before i start the carb up meals once a week?i wouldnt worry about that i would just start thre carb load the first round! my stats are 22 yo 6ft 1 234 lbs about 14 %. I'm running in the morning or should i say very slow jog for 60 min burning 900 cal give or take.thats alot of calshave you figured that into your calorie allotment. lifting on a 5 day split. After doing the no carb when my carb up meal comes i'm currious to how many carbs i want to take in for this carb up meal ?do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say 150 you divide that by 2.2 which =68/ 68 multiplied by "we will say 14" =952 carbs divide by 24 hours which is 12 meals would be 79 carbs per meal.
>  Would 2 cups of oats or a ft long sub from subway (chickenbreast) be too much HAHAHA not enough!!. Oh btw i'm only eating 2300 cal a day can i bump this up? 2300 is my bmr and i only eat that much bc my job is at a desktop please give your expert advice.Well if you are surely burning 900 cals in a morning run then you workout 5 days a week id say you arent eating enough,You may want to refigure your numbers.Because that is one huge caloric deficit! Thanks man in advance


`~top

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## gbrice75

Re: my earlier post - is it worth starting this diet on Monday considering that i'm going to Mexico in 1.5 months and will be eating and drinking anything and everything, or should I just start it fresh when I return? I DO want to cut as much BF as possible BEFORE I go, which is why this diet is looking so appealing right now. Is 1.5 months enough to see anything significant, and would I be risking any issues with my week in Mexico? I would of course start CKD again when I return...

----------


## **TOP**

> Re: my earlier post - is it worth starting this diet on Monday considering that i'm going to Mexico in 1.5 months and will be eating and drinking anything and everything, or should I just start it fresh when I return? I DO want to cut as much BF as possible BEFORE I go, which is why this diet is looking so appealing right now. Is 1.5 months enough to see anything significant, and would I be risking any issues with my week in Mexico? I would of course start CKD again when I return...


Gbrice ive watched you post alot and what ive gathered from you is that you seem to over analyze alot of what you do.RELAX! do the CKD go on vacation,enjoy yourself ,then return to CKD when you come home. Just try and coincide the carb load with the vacation,does that make sense?

Also ive seen you freak out when you gain 1lb or lose 3lbs,if you plan on doing CKD prepare yourself,its nothing for me to gain 7lbs over the weekend.This is why i preach that the only scale in your house should be a food scale!So if you gain quick or lose quick dont shit your pants!! :Welcome:

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## **TOP**

> Top, I've heard that prolonged ketosis with no carb reload can really F-up one's ability to properly metabolize carbs in the future? Any truth to this?


Hmm never seen a proper study so i cant really comment on the pros and cons.Although staying in ketosis has been said to be acidic to your blood. ATKINS was strictly a keto with no carb up.Its worked for people and still has although i wouldnt recommend it for bodybuilding,powerlifting,football,or any other activity that requires extensive explosive movement.Regular keto"in my opinion" is for the beginner that is over 30% bf and wants to lose weight,not someone trying to bodybuild,AND YES IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOU ARE A BODYBUILDER AND DONT LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT!..TOP

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## edgarr

"do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say 150 you divide that by 2.2 which =68/ 68 multiplied by "we will say 14" =952 carbs divide by 24 hours which is 12 meals would be 79 carbs per meal."

sorry if this sounds dumb but now you got me thinking, 12 meals to me would be two days of carb loading , 6 meals per day. 24 hours would only be 6 meals which by this formula would mean 158 carbs per meal...thats a lot or would that be acceptable for someone looking to carb up for only one day? I was thinking 8 meals which for me would mean 117 carbs per meal.

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## HeavyL

Top is the Man!!! thanks for all the helpful info, i believe i have this diet down to a science now... Ive been carb loading every 9 or 10 days because i hold onto carbs longer then most people i guess. by day 8/9/10 im dropping tons of fat and preserving most of my muscle. then carbs and wow veins comeing out of everywhere..

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## **TOP**

> "do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say 150 you divide that by 2.2 which =68/ 68 multiplied by "we will say 14" =952 carbs divide by 24 hours which is 12 meals would be 79 carbs per meal."
> 
> sorry if this sounds dumb but now you got me thinking, 12 meals to me would be two days of carb loading , 6 meals per day. 24 hours would only be 6 meals which by this formula would mean 158 carbs per meal...thats a lot or would that be acceptable for someone looking to carb up for only one day? I was thinking 8 meals which for me would mean 117 carbs per meal.


Thats why i think its best to split it into 2 days. Although the book wants you to workout friday then start the carb load the first 4 meals are when insulin sensetivity is highest"in theory" the next 4 meals will be less carbs so on and so forth. So say the 1st 4 would be 150 grams of carbs the 2nd 4 meals would be 100 carbs etc......

Did you ever get a copy of the bodyopus?If not let me know it explains what to eat and how to eat it as time goes by...TOP

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## gbrice75

> Gbrice ive watched you post alot and what ive gathered from you is that you seem to over analyze alot of what you do.RELAX! *AMEN!!! You're absolutely right, I do this with everything, chalk it up to a character flaw!*
> 
> do the CKD go on vacation,enjoy yourself ,then return to CKD when you come home. Just try and coincide the carb load with the vacation,does that make sense? *Completely - it would just be a 5 day carb up vs. 2 days. My main concern was doing CKD then having a week of a RIDICULOUS amount of carbs, more than I would on my worst week at home. I just wanted to be sure that wouldn't 'shock' my system and cause problems for me. I am leaving on a Wednesday, so I would probably skip my carb reload the weekend prior and just start it on day 1 in Mexico.*
> 
> Also ive seen you freak out when you gain 1lb or lose 3lbs,if you plan on doing CKD prepare yourself,its nothing for me to gain 7lbs over the weekend.This is why i preach that the only scale in your house should be a food scale!So if you gain quick or lose quick dont shit your pants!! *LoL, I know i'm a neurotic jack-ass... and I don't mean to annoy you guys with this stuff! I always get this idea that what works for others never works for me... call me paranoid =P*


Thanks TOP, as always you've been very helpful. I will definitely start CKD on Monday and see where it takes me. One question though - I love the idea of being able to get fats from nuts, but it seems like nuts (and natty PB for that matter) have too many carbs already built-in to be a good fat source. What do you think?

----------


## edgarr

> Thats why i think its best to split it into 2 days. Although the book wants you to workout friday then start the carb load the first 4 meals are when insulin sensetivity is highest"in theory" the next 4 meals will be less carbs so on and so forth. So say the 1st 4 would be 150 grams of carbs the 2nd 4 meals would be 100 carbs etc......
> 
> Did you ever get a copy of the bodyopus?If not let me know it explains what to eat and how to eat it as time goes by...TOP


Never got your email, you can try again. I tried ordering it from Amazon I think and it was out. 

I am thinking of trying to split up the carb load over 36 hours which would be 9 meals and average of 104 carbs per meal. And doing it 125 meals 1-3, 110 meals 4-6 and about 75 meals 7-9??? Seehow that goes for a few weeks.

----------


## **TOP**

*CARB LOAD RULES*


*STAGE 1 iNITIAL 24 HOURS*
Feedings-12
carbs-16x lean bodyweight in kg
Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)

*Meal 1-4* -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.

*MEALS 5-8*-These should be liquid carbs and solid high glycemic carbs(such as cornflakes) Eat 1.5 g of carbsper kg of lean bodyweight at each meal

*Meal 9-12*-Finally you get to eat some real food eat.5grams of solid starches and some liquid carbs per kg of lbm at each meal

*STAGE2*
Feedings-12
Type-Mixed,primarily starches

*MEAL1-4*-Each meal 1gram carbs per kg of lbm SINCE INSULIN SENSETIVITY IS DECLINING YOU SHOULD EAT MORE SOLID CARBS AND PROTEINS!

*MEAL5-8*-Eat .75 grams of carbs per lbm of normal food (rice,pasta,potatoes)

*MEAL9-12*-.5GRAMS OF CARBS. Since you want to begin lowering blood glucose before you begin another week of carb depletion,you should eat just the opposite of what you would expect! Go back tosimple liquid carbs and proteins.Basically you want a sugar crash to get you into low blood sugar. Yes insulin ishigher but the actual amount of carbs per meal is quite low.

TRY YOUR BEST TO STAY AWAY FROM FRUCTOSE AND SUCROSE,THESE REFILL LIVER THE MOST AND THATS WILL IN TURN TAKE YOU LONGER TO DEPLETE YOUR STORAGE.

By following this formula everyone will hit there 16grams over the duration no matter what difference you have in LBM from the next guy. I hope this helps people with carb loading...TOP :Welcome:

----------


## **TOP**

> Thanks TOP, as always you've been very helpful. I will definitely start CKD on Monday and see where it takes me. One question though - I love the idea of being able to get fats from nuts, but it seems like nuts (and natty PB for that matter) have too many carbs already built-in to be a good fat source. What do you think?


I agree they must be limited but where they fail you can make up for it in bacon,sausage whole eggs,pork rinds,etc.....TOP

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## **TOP**

> Never got your email, you can try again. I tried ordering it from Amazon I think and it was out. 
> 
> I am thinking of trying to split up the carb load over 36 hours which would be 9 meals and average of 104 carbs per meal. And doing it 125 meals 1-3, 110 meals 4-6 and about 75 meals 7-9??? Seehow that goes for a few weeks.


Read the carb load rules!By what you are saying,you are on the right track!!

----------


## edgarr

During Keto anything wrong with 1 meal being just fats like a tablespoon of UDO's as long as it's within my macros? What if that was right after cardio?

----------


## **TOP**

> During Keto anything wrong with 1 meal being just fats like a tablespoon of UDO's as long as it's within my macros? What if that was right after cardio?


You may get hungry with nothing but liquid in your gut! And thats not alot of liquid either!

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## Damienm05

> AND YES IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOU ARE A BODYBUILDER AND DONT LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT!..TOP


I like all your posts Top but this is the best I've seen.

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## baddgsx

> *CARB LOAD RULES*
> 
> 
> *STAGE 1 iNITIAL 24 HOURS*
> Feedings-12
> carbs-16x lean bodyweight in kg
> Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)
> 
> *Meal 1-4* -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.
> ...



Im alittle confused , do we pick a stage? either do stage 1 or stage 2 fri. through sat. ? 

Thanks, 
Chris

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## **TOP**

^ No this is how the carb load is suggested to be ran from start to finish!

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## baddgsx

> ^ No this is how the carb load is suggested to be ran from start to finish!


So stage 1 12meals starts fri after fullbody workout and ends fri night? And stage 2 starts sat. morning and ends sat night? Total of 24 carb meals? 


I thought we were supposed to eat our total carbs divided into 12 meals starting from fri after fullbody workout to sat night. 
Sorry TOP, I'm still confused.

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## edgarr

> So stage 1 12meals starts fri after fullbody workout and ends fri night? And stage 2 starts sat. morning and ends sat night? Total of 24 carb meals? 
> 
> 
> I thought we were supposed to eat our total carbs divided into 12 meals starting from fri after fullbody workout to sat night. 
> Sorry TOP, I'm still confused.


it is a bit confusing. I think this wants you to eat 12 meals in 24 hours, which would require waking up and eating for those of us that sleep and doing that for two days???

i am going to experiment with the above formulas but do it over 9 meals which if i start my carb load at 9am sat I will be done around 3pm on sunday.

----------


## baddgsx

> it is a bit confusing. I think this wants you to eat 12 meals in 24 hours, which would require waking up and eating for those of us that sleep and doing that for two days???
> 
> i am going to experiment with the above formulas but do it over 9 meals which if i start my carb load at 9am sat I will be done around 3pm on sunday.



I'm currently doing 12meals spread out from fri pwo to sat night. That's how I interpreted it from the beginning. However , the stage 1 and stage 2 is confusing me. Do you do stage 1 on the first month of this diet and do stage 2 on the second month of this diet program? This is where I'm confused.

----------


## edgarr

> I'm currently doing 12meals spread out from fri pwo to sat night. That's how I interpreted it from the beginning. However , the stage 1 and stage 2 is confusing me. Do you do stage 1 on the first month of this diet and do stage 2 on the second month of this diet program? This is where I'm confused.


^^^ I've beeen confused through this whole diet lol.... like how can one lose weight when they drop 5lbs in 5 days but put 5lbs back on day 6 and 7  :Icon Rolleyes: 

But its working, just need to fine tune some areas for more rapid results.  :7up:

----------


## **TOP**

First of all the diet was designed for you to lose bodyfat not "weight." 2nd yes according to the way duchaine wants you to do the diet you should eat throughout the night,many wont do that and i for one dont think its exactly necessary.3rd, No its not broken into months,stage 1 is beagn after the depletement workout and stage 2 is done after stage 1. The whole thing can be played around with,like ive said there are many variations of CKD this is just the one i choose to do.

Ive said this many times if you want to know how it all works pm your email and ill send you a copy of the ebook. There is way to much in the book for me to post,you need to read it yourself to get the full benefit.

----------


## baddgsx

Had a trainer measure my body fat a half hour after I woke up using the electronic one where you grip the handles. 16.5% later I'm going back around 6pm to get checked using his digital calipers.

----------


## Failure

Are those electronic ones even accurate? I hope they are because I read lower than i thought I was by over 8%

----------


## baddgsx

> Are those electronic ones even accurate? I hope they are because I read lower than i thought I was by over 8%


I think in the morning on an empty stomach they are ALOT more accurate than using it in the evening. Im getting caliper measurements this afternoon so ill be curious to see the results. 

Anyone know how long should it take me to get from 16.5% to 10% on the keto diet? 


Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> Anyone know how long should it take me to get from 16.5% to 10% on the keto diet? 
> 
> 
> Chris


Its according to how hard you worked. I would assume it would take the average person 4-6 months.But someone knowing what they are doing that has an excellent work ethic 3-4 months.

----------


## Damienm05

> I think in the morning on an empty stomach they are ALOT more accurate than using it in the evening. Im getting caliper measurements this afternoon so ill be curious to see the results. 
> 
> Anyone know how long should it take me to get from 16.5% to 10% on the keto diet? 
> 
> 
> Chris


If you ate 500-700 below your TDEE and did LIT cardio 3-5 times per week. Kept your refeeds light and were willing to risk some strength - you could do it in 60 days. That said, most people eat at a minimal deficit and don't do cardio when doing keto, in fact, that's often their incentive for doing keto!

----------


## wormwood

Would running testosterone as a cutter while doing this diet alter the diets effectiveness
in any manner?

----------


## edgarr

> Would running testosterone as a cutter while doing this diet alter the diets effectiveness
> in any manner?


Should only help!

----------


## gbrice75

I've committed myself to doing some variation of a CKD diet starting this Monday. I have read all of 'The Anabolic Diet', and about 1/3rd of 'BodyOpus' (thanks again TOP!). Until I read further and/or am told differently, I will be doing a basic diet whereby I get less than 30g carbs M-F, do my workouts etc, then do a carb refeed over the weekend with hopefully decent carb choices. I just went food shopping and learned a few things:

*1 - this is WAY more daunting than I expected it to be.* About 10 years ago I tried the Atkins diet (which I know is different than CKD in many ways but it's fundamentally the same). I thought that the ONLY goal was to deprive myself of carbs and so long as I did that, i'd lose fat. I did not pay attention to overall daily caloric intake, nor did I give any thought to the amount (or quality) of fat I was eating. Needless to say, it was a failed attempt at losing fat. 

*2 - EVERYTHING HAS CARBS DAMNIT!* It's unbelievable how almost everything has carbs in it. I found it VERY difficult to shop as the carbs were adding up despite my best efforts. 1g here, 2g there, <1g here and there - it adds up when you're trying to stay under 30g per day. $hit - my protein powder alone contains 3g. On top of that I had to give up my beloved natty PB and nuts as they have way too many carbs to even bother with. Not fun!

*3 - It just seems wrong.* Ok, I KNOW I need to get over this FAST if this diet is going to have any chance. But I unpacked my grocery bags, looked at what I bought and thought to myself _who would EVER think this food is for a person on a 'diet', or better yet somebody trying to build their body?_ The lack of carbs (oats, veggies, etc. just didn't seem right; but at the same time I know this isn't your everyday mainstream accepted diet.

I just wanted to list what I bought today for critique. I am having a very tough time with what to buy, I feel like a fish out of water and I REALLY need your help, or I am going to fail miserably on this diet. Please let me know if I should include/exclude anything:
*
1 package of bacon
1 package of hotdogs (1g carb per hotdog)
1 package breakfast sausage (2g carbs per 3 sausages)
1lb 85% ground beef
1 bag of Colby Jack Cheese 'blocks' (1g carbs per 4 blocks)
1 Corned Beef Brisket
1 1/2 dozen Eggs
1 Package of White Cheddar String Cheese
1 Package of Taylor Ham (Pork Roll)
1 package shredded sharp Cheddar cheese (to top on the ground beef for flavor, don't know what else to do with the beef and can't imagine eating it plain)
1 container of fresh mozarella
1 package of goat cheese (I use it to top chicken breast)
1 can salmon (like the canned tuna)*

I think that's it. It seems terribly unhealthy, and most everything I bought is high in saturated fat - I just don't know what else to buy! I have EVOO at home, etc.

I figured I could make egg salad (eggs, mayo, mustard) for a meal, corned beef with mustard for another meal, eggs and bacon/sausage/pork roll for another, beef topped with cheese for another, etc. I have plenty of steaks in my freezer. What do you think?

Last question - on this diet, should I still be taking my whey protein shake after my workout? (need to mix with water now instead of skim milk - DISGUSTING!). Also, should I continue my casein shake before bed? 

Thanks in advance guys.

----------


## energizer bunny

im also starting my CKD trial on Monday, got my food on Friday and diet all sorted, training sorted...im now trying to figure out the carb load(im finding this to be the hardest part lol)

----------


## Failure

You can add water and a bit of Heavy Cream to your shake. I just do ice cubes and peanut butter to my unflavored whey. There is also low/no sugar chocolate syrup. 
You can eat almonds, avacados, lettuce, and a bunch of other things in moderation. You can just eat real meats and save your carbs for the 'goodies'. It does get easier though. After a while you wont miss carbs. I don't, in fact when I eat carbs I have a hard time stopping. On or off the diet.

----------


## energizer bunny

> I've committed myself to doing some variation of a CKD diet starting this Monday. I have read all of 'The Anabolic Diet', and about 1/3rd of 'BodyOpus' (thanks again TOP!). Until I read further and/or am told differently, I will be doing a basic diet whereby I get less than 30g carbs M-F, do my workouts etc, then do a carb refeed over the weekend with hopefully decent carb choices. I just went food shopping and learned a few things:
> 
> *1 - this is WAY more daunting than I expected it to be.* About 10 years ago I tried the Atkins diet (which I know is different than CKD in many ways but it's fundamentally the same). I thought that the ONLY goal was to deprive myself of carbs and so long as I did that, i'd lose fat. I did not pay attention to overall daily caloric intake, nor did I give any thought to the amount (or quality) of fat I was eating. Needless to say, it was a failed attempt at losing fat. 
> 
> *2 - EVERYTHING HAS CARBS DAMNIT!* It's unbelievable how almost everything has carbs in it. I found it VERY difficult to shop as the carbs were adding up despite my best efforts. 1g here, 2g there, <1g here and there - it adds up when you're trying to stay under 30g per day. $hit - my protein powder alone contains 3g. On top of that I had to give up my beloved natty PB and nuts as they have way too many carbs to even bother with. Not fun!
> 
> *3 - It just seems wrong.* Ok, I KNOW I need to get over this FAST if this diet is going to have any chance. But I unpacked my grocery bags, looked at what I bought and thought to myself _who would EVER think this food is for a person on a 'diet', or better yet somebody trying to build their body?_ The lack of carbs (oats, veggies, etc. just didn't seem right; but at the same time I know this isn't your everyday mainstream accepted diet.
> 
> I just wanted to list what I bought today for critique. I am having a very tough time with what to buy, I feel like a fish out of water and I REALLY need your help, or I am going to fail miserably on this diet. Please let me know if I should include/exclude anything:
> ...



mate ive managed to fit, skim milk, peanut butter, mayonaise, whey, low carb wrap, almond, seeds.....though thats 40 grams carbs ill be having.....my split worked out 65/30/7 if i remember correctly.....

----------


## gbrice75

> You can add water and a bit of Heavy Cream to your shake. I just do ice cubes and peanut butter to my unflavored whey. There is also low/no sugar chocolate syrup. 
> You can eat almonds, avacados, lettuce, and a bunch of other things in moderation. You can just eat real meats and save your carbs for the 'goodies'. It does get easier though. After a while you wont miss carbs. I don't, in fact when I eat carbs I have a hard time stopping. On or off the diet.


Yea... doing it this way (cycling carbs) will make this diet 1000 times more realistic than Atkins - I can say this without having even started it yet. Just to have a break (plus 'fun' food) to look forward to on weekends is HUGE.

See, that's the problem - I would LOVE to have nuts, avacado, etc. but at 30g of carbs or less a day (my total cal. is 2000, so 5% is roughly 30g) i'm finding just the regular foods alone that i'm eating contain enough carbs to get me up to 30g - therefore I can't even have PB, almonds, avacado, etc.

----------


## gbrice75

> mate ive managed to fit, skim milk, peanut butter, mayonaise, whey, low carb wrap, almond, seeds.....though thats 40 grams carbs ill be having.....my split worked out 65/30/7 if i remember correctly.....


LoL 65/30/7 is 102% my man!

Above all else, it would be BEAUTIFUL if I could fit just 8oz of skim a day (12g carbs) for my PWO shake. But right there is 1/2 my daily allotment of carbs.... =(

----------


## energizer bunny

> LoL 65/30/7 is 102% my man!
> 
> Above all else, it would be BEAUTIFUL if I could fit just 8oz of skim a day (12g carbs) for my PWO shake. But right there is 1/2 my daily allotment of carbs.... =(



LOL :1laugh: 

sorry mate

64/29/7........i can get 200ml of skimmed milk....dont know what 8 onzes....i may have to lower carbs, and the milk will be first to go if needs be..

----------


## AnimalJ

would you recommend doing test e while using the anabolic diet to cut. i will be in a deficit but following the anabolic to a T. i figured Test E will prevent muscle wasting maybe even promote lean mass gains while cutting. Thoughts?

----------


## gbrice75

I have roughly 24 hours to get this meal thing squared away.... TOP WHERE ARE YOU!!!!! 

LoL TOP is gonna hate me if he doesn't already =P

----------


## **TOP**

The PWO shake is not even necessary,and if you want to put enough time and work into the diet you could have all the milk,nuts etc. in your diet .You may not be able to have them everyday but you could have milk mon-tues nuts wed-thurs,something like that. Dont let this run your life,remember YOU ARE THE BOSS!! 

And yes GBRICE this kinda goes against everything you always thought was right about dieting. Who claims to be on a diet when they eat eggs bacon sausauge,spam and mayo,pork rinds and weiners! But it does work and allows the user to learn different ways to test themselves.Also i didnt see one of the most important fats on your grocery list fish oil. with 5 caps and 5 meals thats 250 clean calories.

I read a post earlier that said to use sugar free chocolate syrup,You may wanna check *ALL* labels. Just because something is sugar free does not mean its carb free!! 

Also watch your sugar free gum,there are usually 2 grams of carbs in a single piece.

----------


## gbrice75

> The PWO shake is not even necessary,and if you want to put enough time and work into the diet you could have all the milk,nuts etc. in your diet .You may not be able to have them everyday but you could have milk mon-tues nuts wed-thurs,something like that. Dont let this run your life,remember YOU ARE THE BOSS!!
> 
> *I'm curious - why not necessary? Is a PWO meal not necessary, or just the shake specifically? The BodyOpus book recommends 30% daily protein come from whey, so i'm confused here! I thought PWO nutrition is arguably the most important meal of the day?*
> 
> And yes GBRICE this kinda goes against everything you always thought was right about dieting. Who claims to be on a diet when they eat eggs bacon sausauge,spam and mayo,pork rinds and weiners! But it does work and allows the user to learn different ways to test themselves.Also i didnt see one of the most important fats on your grocery list fish oil. with 5 caps and 5 meals thats 250 clean calories.
> 
> *I should have mentioned I do have fish oil caps... 1g each - was planning on taking 2 with every meal. They're just Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil - got em from Costco.*
> 
> I read a post earlier that said to use sugar free chocolate syrup,You may wanna check *ALL* labels. Just because something is sugar free does not mean its carb free!! 
> ...


So TOP - in general, you think i'm ok with the foods I listed? I don't need to be worried about too much saturated fat and the fact that alot of it is dirty processed food, nitrates, etc?

----------


## gbrice75

I came up with my first 'menu' - one of many to come. Let me know what you think. I've even managed to squeeze in my skim milk!!! Of course depending on TOP's response regarding the PWO shake, it might wind up coming back out again:

*2000 Calories  60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs
Daily Macros: 
1200 calories/130g fat
700 calories/175g protein
100 calories/25g carbs*

*Meal 1 4:30am*
2 eggs  12g protein, 9g fat, 2g carbs  140 calories
2 bacon  5g protein, 7g fat  90 calories
½ tbsp butter  5g fat, 50 calories
*Total - 17g protein, 2g carbs, 21g fat  270 calories*

*Meal 2 7:30am*
1 scoop whey - 24g protein, 3g carbs, 1g fat  120 calories
8oz skim milk  8g protein, 12g carbs  90 calories
*Total - 32g protein, 15g carbs, 1g fat  210 calories*

*Meal 3 10:30am*
3 eggs  18g protein, 13.5g fat, 3g carbs  210 calories
2 tbsp mayo  20g fat  180 calories
2 Fish Oil Caps  2g fat  20 calories
*Total - 18g protein, 35.5g fat, 3g carbs  410 calories*

*Meal 4 1:30pm*
4oz corned beef  13g protein, 18g fat  210 calories
1 string cheese  5g protein, 7g fat  90 calories
2 Fish Oil Caps  2g fat  20 calories
*Total - 18g protein, 27g fat  320 calories*

*Meal 5 4:30pm*
4oz ground beef  22g protein, 16g fat  230 calories
¼ cup shredded cheddar  7g protein, 1g carbs, 9g fat  110 calories
2 Fish Oil Caps  2g fat  20 calories
*Total - 29g protein, 27g fat, 1g carb  360 calories*

*Meal 6 7:30pm*
Steak  X Factor (depends on the size, for now going with 6oz - also tough to find nutrition info in general for steak, so this one is a BIG estimate)
2 Fish Oil Caps  2g fat  20 calories
*Total - 36g protein, 14g fat  275 calories*

*Meal 7 10:30pm*
1 Scoop Casein Protein  24g Protein, 2g Carbs, 1g Fat  120 Calories
*Total - 24g protein, 2g carbs, 1g fat  120 calories*

*Daily Totals: 174g Protein, 126.5g Fat, 23g Carbs - 1965 Calories*

What do you think?

----------


## **TOP**

I say PWO shake is not necessary because you could just go eat your next meal and it will be fine. Taking in supplements and protein powders have been drilled into peoples heads for far to long. They can help but they are "supplements" and that alone. Me personally, i would rather have some tilapia with my milk for PWO instead of a whey protein shake with milk!

----------


## gbrice75

> I say PWO shake is not necessary because you could just go eat your next meal and it will be fine. Taking in supplements and protein powders have been drilled into peoples heads for far to long. They can help but they are "supplements" and that alone. Me personally, i would rather have some tilapia with my milk for PWO instead of a whey protein shake with milk!


Thanks for the clarification. Other than that, do I look ok with the diet I posted above?

----------


## **TOP**

Looks good to me as long as its in the range of percentages and its correct for your calorit deficit.

----------


## gbrice75

> Looks good to me as long as its in the range of percentages and its correct for your calorit deficit.


Then OFF WE GO!!!

Ok ok, one last question (for today =P ) - since the biggest concern on this diet is carbs, do we or do we not count fiber? For instance my natty PB has 7g carbs but 2 are fiber - so do I count that as 5g or 7g of carbs? Same deal with the nuts.

Also - I will not be getting anywhere near the fiber I was on my last diet (beans, oats, etc) - I would imagine supplementing fiber is important. But again, i'm worried about the carbs... I saw fiber pills and powders to mix in water and it has soluble and insoluble fiber - I suppose I have to count the carbs for the soluble, right?

----------


## **TOP**

Carbs are carbs count them as carbs. Most fiber supps contain carbs so be careful...TOP

----------


## baddgsx

is it better to measure food cooked or raw

----------


## baddgsx

i had my bodyfat measured fri. night by a trainer at my gym using the digital calipers. He measured 3 areas , first my tricepts , then my quads , and last my lower belly. He said it calculated my bodyfat as 12.1% , is that even possible at the way i look now? Not sure if hes doing it right but it did make me smile. 

Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> is it better to measure food cooked or raw


Always measure raw.

----------


## **TOP**

> i had my bodyfat measured fri. night by a trainer at my gym using the digital calipers. He measured 3 areas , first my tricepts , then my quads , and last my lower belly. He said it calculated my bodyfat as 12.1% , is that even possible at the way i look now? Not sure if hes doing it right but it did make me smile. 
> 
> Chris


Dont know what do you look like NOW?

----------


## edgarr

> I came up with my first 'menu' - one of many to come. Let me know what you think. I've even managed to squeeze in my skim milk!!! Of course depending on TOP's response regarding the PWO shake, it might wind up coming back out again:
> 
> [B]2000 Calories  60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs
> Daily Macros: 
> 1200 calories/130g fat
> 700 calories/175g protein
> 100 calories/25g carbs


For its worth I notice improvements when I went from 60% fat to 65%. More energy, better work outs, etc.

----------


## AnimalJ

im done with this diet for a bit but i must say it works no secrets just good ol physiology. I have to say i like mauro's approach more than duchaine's i think anabolic is easier to follow for some reason. Good luck man let us know how your doing!

----------


## gbrice75

> Always measure raw.


See, this has always been an issue for me. For instance, when I measure a single serving of oats (1/2 cup), I measure dry. However, when i'm measuring out my meats I always measure them in ounces, cooked. Example - 4oz of chicken breast is roughly 24g of protein. Let's say I take a raw chicken breast and it weighs 5oz. I then cook it and it weighs 4oz cooked. If I had measured it raw, I would have thought I was getting 5oz/30g protein which isn't the case.

So wouldn't you want to measure all meat cooked?

----------


## gbrice75

> For its worth I notice improvements when I went from 60% fat to 65%. More energy, better work outs, etc.


Good to know. Today is day 1 for me, and I have to say it's tougher than I thought - i'm HUNGRY!!! I miss my oats BIGTIME! 

I'll give it 2 weeks as is (60% fat) and if i'm feeling low-energy i'll switch it up to 65% like you and see how that goes. I am managing to keep carbs under 25g, hopefully that's ok - i'm a bit nervous that it's too much!

----------


## gbrice75

> im done with this diet for a bit but i must say it works no secrets just good ol physiology. I have to say i like mauro's approach more than duchaine's i think anabolic is easier to follow for some reason. Good luck man let us know how your doing!


I'm happy to hear this as I sit here and doubt my choice. I just got through eating a big tub of egg salad and felt so guilty with every bite... like... this CANNOT be healthy. But I don't plan on doing this forever; i'd like to cut body fat to 10% and then get on a 40/40/20 diet a few hundred calories above maintenance so I can hopefully start growth. If this diet is going exceptionally well however, I will stick with it beyond the 10%.

Can you give some specifics of your progress? What did you start at (weight and BF%), how long were you on the diet and what are you today? Can you detail how you did it (i.e. workouts, carb reloads, etc.)?

Finally, I agree 100% - The Anabolic Diet is MUCH easier to follow.... you almost don't need to do anything but a fundamental keto diet (atkins) and add the carb reload. BodyOpus seems VERY regimented (the carb reloads are insane, and the workouts don't fit my schedule at all) - but you have to wonder if results would be that much better following BodyOpus?

----------


## edgarr

> Good to know. Today is day 1 for me, and I have to say it's tougher than I thought - *i'm HUNGRY!!!* I miss my oats BIGTIME! 
> 
> I'll give it 2 weeks as is (60% fat) and if i'm feeling low-energy i'll switch it up to 65% like you and see how that goes. I am managing to keep carbs under 25g, hopefully that's ok - i'm a bit nervous that it's too much!


The first two weeks or so are the hardest. You even feel like crap sometimes but then it gets better. I am never hungry except for maybe the day after my carb up.

Very easy diet to eat if you are out and about also. I get avocado salads with beef, hamburger (no bun) with bacon, etc. Just know your macros.

I also found that what and when I eat it helps me. I have a larger cal meals before workouts for the energy.

----------


## gbrice75

Another question - since keto diets are SOOO geared towards fat loss, would you still reccommend a relatively large caloric deficit? For instance, i was at a 500-700 calorie deficit on my 40/40/20 diet, but that diet is much more 'middle of the road' and probably requires a large deficit. I just don't want to be starving myself - I have this set up at 2000 calories daily, my TDEE is right around 2500 (as far as I know).

----------


## edgarr

> Another question - since keto diets are SOOO geared towards fat loss, would you still reccommend a relatively large caloric deficit? For instance, i was at a 500-700 calorie deficit on my 40/40/20 diet, but that diet is much more 'middle of the road' and probably requires a large deficit. I just don't want to be starving myself - I have this set up at 2000 calories daily, my TDEE is right around 2500 (as far as I know).


depends on your goals and how fast you want to reach them also are you doing cardio and if so how much?

----------


## energizer bunny

> Good to know. Today is day 1 for me, and I have to say it's tougher than I thought - i'm HUNGRY!!! I miss my oats BIGTIME! 
> 
> I'll give it 2 weeks as is (60% fat) and if i'm feeling low-energy i'll switch it up to 65% like you and see how that goes. I am managing to keep carbs under 25g, hopefully that's ok - i'm a bit nervous that it's too much!


its my first day also, felt good, im feeling a bit hungry now tho.......im on 40ish grams of carbs tho.....i had a low carb wrap, chicken,peperoni,cheese and mayo for my lunch, very tasty!

----------


## gbrice75

> depends on your goals and how fast you want to reach them also are you doing cardio and if so how much?


Well, probably needless to say - but I want to lose the most amount of bodyfat possible in a safe way and minimize muscle loss, would love to gain but that's not gonna happen on 2000 calories.

I am doing 1/2 hour cardio 5x a week immediately after my workout (Wednesday is just cardio) - Heart Rate between 130 - 145.

----------


## gbrice75

> its my first day also, felt good, im feeling a bit hungry now tho.......im on 40ish grams of carbs tho.....i had a low carb wrap, chicken,peperoni,cheese and mayo for my lunch, very tasty!


OMG, DIE!!!  :Evil2: 

I'm so jealous... that sounds great! 40g of carbs sounds a bit high though? What is your total caloric intake daily?

Dude, since we both started today, let's help eachother out and keep eachother motivated. Maybe we can swap ideas, foods, etc. You game?

----------


## mg1228

> See, this has always been an issue for me. For instance, when I measure a single serving of oats (1/2 cup), I measure dry. However, when i'm measuring out my meats I always measure them in ounces, cooked. Example - 4oz of chicken breast is roughly 24g of protein. Let's say I take a raw chicken breast and it weighs 5oz. I then cook it and it weighs 4oz cooked. If I had measured it raw, I would have thought I was getting 5oz/30g protein which isn't the case.
> 
> So wouldn't you want to measure all meat cooked?


no---5oz chicken breast raw is how u count it

hope that didnt put u over on cals for the last 2mo

----------


## gbrice75

> no---5oz chicken breast raw is how u count it
> 
> hope that didnt put u over on cals for the last 2mo


If so, then i've been WAY off all this time. So to be clear on this - if I need to eat let's say 4oz of chicken breast for a meal, I would weigh 4oz raw, cook and eat, even though the cooked weight might be 3oz? Alot of that weight is water when raw... it seems to me if I am supposed to EAT 4oz of chicken, then I should be counting 4oz of edible chicken, not 3oz of chicken and 1oz of water.

----------


## mg1228

measure it raw

----------


## mg1228

u been eatin above tdee? go back and look

----------


## gbrice75

> u been eatin above tdee? go back and look


Probably not; I had my deficit so big (700 cals or so) that even these mistakes wouldn't put me over TDEE.

Measuring raw isn't always possible though - for instance, if I cook a roast, a whole turkey or chicken, a big piece of steak, etc... can't cook small portions, so I would have no choice but to measure cooked.... am I missing something here?

----------


## gbrice75

What is the final word on artificial sweeteners? Are they ok on a Keto diet? I'm talking about Sucralose (splenda), Aspartame (most diet soda), etc.

----------


## mg1228

> Probably not; I had my deficit so big (700 cals or so) that even these mistakes wouldn't put me over TDEE.
> 
> Measuring raw isn't always possible though - for instance, if I cook a roast, a whole turkey or chicken, a big piece of steak, etc... can't cook small portions, so I would have no choice but to measure cooked.... am I missing something here?


thats true--but if u have measured enough raw then u can better guestimate

----------


## Failure

> What is the final word on artificial sweeteners? Are they ok on a Keto diet? I'm talking about Sucralose (splenda), Aspartame (most diet soda), etc.


This is kind of confusing me as well. I hear no aspartame because it prohibits weight loss in some. I put splenda in everything lol. Hope that isn't bad.

I also have been counting carbs - fiber as net carbs. Mistake I guess.

----------


## danielli

> thats true--but if u have measured enough raw then u can better guestimate


Does anyone know how accurate fitday is for this? I noticed that on a lot of stuff they have the option to select your food as raw or cooked. 

Any thoughts?

----------


## **TOP**

> does anyone know how accurate fitday is for this? I noticed that on a lot of stuff they have the option to select your food as raw or cooked. 
> 
> Any thoughts?


i personally dont like using fitday and i dont recommend using them.their "menu items" are not the same thing you are putting in your mouth most of the time!

----------


## **TOP**

I havent tried this but a colleague sent it to me and it looks interesting anyone wanna give it a go????????????

*KETO CHOCALATE CAKE RECIPE*


http://caloriecount.about.com/keto-c...recipe-r139204

----------


## edgarr

> i personally dont like using fitday and i dont recommend using them.their "menu items" are not the same thing you are putting in your mouth most of the time!


I use it for things that dont have info on them like avocados but meat, tuna, chicken etc I use the label. Is that a better method?

----------


## energizer bunny

dam.....fitday is what i use most of the time! i hope its not to far wrong!

the recipe looks good, may have a go, see what the funds are like this wknd....

----------


## **TOP**

> I use it for things that dont have info on them like avocados but meat, tuna, chicken etc I use the label. Is that a better method?


If you cant find the label fitday will suffice,but as for using them for everything,ive found they are way off from what my actual macros are. Just compare your actual food to fitday and you will see!

----------


## danielli

> I use it for things that dont have info on them like avocados but meat, tuna, chicken etc I use the label. Is that a better method?


I usually start with the fitday default, and then use the "customize food" option using the actual label from teh food if I have it. I've noticed there is sometimes a big difference, but in a lot of cases, its pretty close. I gues it just depends

----------


## Damienm05

> I havent tried this but a colleague sent it to me and it looks interesting anyone wanna give it a go????????????
> 
> *KETO CHOCALATE CAKE RECIPE*
> 
> 
> http://caloriecount.about.com/keto-c...recipe-r139204


I made a very similar cake when I was doing a keto diet. Quite good; a little dry but better than anything else you'll come across for an acceptable dessert. Please save your taste-buds the trouble and don't use 'olive oil' as specified in this particular recipe. That will be gross, it has a strong flavor. Use 1/4 cup less of a nut oil and 2 more egg yolks. 

Also, you guys can make cheesecakes, peanut butter pies, and all sorts of tarts by simply using ground almonds instead of graham crackers as a crust. And using an artificial sweetener of course. Personally, I'd stay away from all of it because it's not healthy despite being low carb but sometimes we just need comfort food I suppose.

----------


## Bren

I found this thread last week and so far everyone has asked, and had answered, all the questions i have had. Thanks for posting this TOP, and for keeping up with all the questions everyone has had.

----------


## gbrice75

BUMP on the artificial sweeteners question - are they ok? I am having diet root beer withdrawal! Aspartame (Equal), Sucralose (Splenda), Saccharin (Sweet and Low), etc?

I know that at least Equal and Splenda both contain Dextrose and Maltodextrin, Sweet and Low contains Dextrose and Cream of Tartar. Since TOP is posting that cake recipe, I assume these are ok - but I have heard these sweeteners can screw up and spike insulin ?

----------


## **TOP**

> I found this thread last week and so far everyone has asked, and had answered, all the questions i have had. Thanks for posting this TOP, and for keeping up with all the questions everyone has had.


You got it brotha! Maybe when i decide to not be a natty anymore you guys can return the favor!!!

----------


## **TOP**

> BUMP on the artificial sweeteners question - are they ok? I am having diet root beer withdrawal! Aspartame (Equal), Sucralose (Splenda), Saccharin (Sweet and Low), etc?
> 
> I know that at least Equal and Splenda both contain Dextrose and Maltodextrin, Sweet and Low contains Dextrose and Cream of Tartar. Since TOP is posting that cake recipe, I assume these are ok - but I have heard these sweeteners can screw up and spike insulin?


Drink the damn root beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## mg1228

^^^lol^^^^

----------


## gbrice75

> Drink the damn root beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LoL thanks TOP! You know I will become your biggest pain in the ass, right?  :AaGreen22:

----------


## baddgsx

i ordered up some CLEN from our good fellas at AR-R . Top right banner. When i run alittle clen on the CKD diet , should i still keep my calorie dificiency at 500. Or should i do normal TDEE. I dont want to loose lean muscle mass and i know how potent the clen is , but also anti-catabolic too which is a Plus!!!

thanks , 

Chris

----------


## gbrice75

I need to rethink my workout plan and carb up days. I was going to stick with my usual 4 day a week workout which takes place at 5:30am, and then carb up on Sat - Sun. I don't have the time to do the workouts the way the BodyOpus book suggests, especially the full depletion workout on Friday. Even if I did, because I do it so early in the morning that would mean i'd have to start carb up right after the workout, all day Friday (during work, very inconvenient), Saturday, and then back to keto on Suday (again, sort of a strange schedule). 

After finishing the book, it sounds like starting the carb up immediately after the depletion workout is one of the keys to the program working, and it's definitely not optimal to start 24 hours later. This is going to be tough for me, not sure how I can work this one out.... =\

----------


## Damienm05

> I need to rethink my workout plan and carb up days. I was going to stick with my usual 4 day a week workout which takes place at 5:30am, and then carb up on Sat - Sun. I don't have the time to do the workouts the way the BodyOpus book suggests, especially the full depletion workout on Friday. Even if I did, because I do it so early in the morning that would mean i'd have to start carb up right after the workout, all day Friday (during work, very inconvenient), Saturday, and then back to keto on Suday (again, sort of a strange schedule). 
> 
> After finishing the book, it sounds like starting the carb up immediately after the depletion workout is one of the keys to the program working, and it's definitely not optimal to start 24 hours later. This is going to be tough for me, not sure how I can work this one out.... =\


You're over-thinking it. I have my workout partner on a CKD. He eats slightly below his tdee monday through saturday at a ratio of 65% fat, 35% protein. He carbs up hard on Sunday. He works out with me, just as I do:
Monday - chest/abs. 
Tuesday - back. 
Wednesday - shoulders/legs, PWO LIT. 
Thursday - arms PWO LIT. 
Friday - calves/traps/abs PWO LIT. 

He has made strength gains and is still losing 3 lbs. per week after 6 weeks (started well above 20% bf). I'm not saying there isn't an ideal way to run these diets as I haven't read these books. However, I am telling you, you will lose weight regardless. I am watching a lazy stoner who's never followed a diet before do so effortlessly.

Understand that in the 3 days following the carb-up, you'll have more horsepower and that the goal in the 2-3 days preceding your next carb-up is to completely drain the tank with cardio and miscellaneous body parts. Within those parameters, I don't think you have to get too specific bud.

----------


## Bren

> i ordered up some CLEN from our good fellas at AR-R . Top right banner. When i run alittle clen on the CKD diet , should i still keep my calorie dificiency at 500. Or should i do normal TDEE. I dont want to loose lean muscle mass and i know how potent the clen is , but also anti-catabolic too which is a Plus!!!
> 
> thanks , 
> 
> Chris


If anything the Clen should help to preserve your muscle.

----------


## gbrice75

> You're over-thinking it. 
> 
> *In generally speaking about CKD, yes. If trying to follow the BodyOpus book, then I don't think so. However, it is very rigid and i'd like to find a happy medium.*
> 
> I have my workout partner on a CKD. He eats slightly below his tdee monday through saturday at a ratio of 65% fat, 35% protein. He carbs up hard on Sunday. He works out with me, just as I do:
> Monday - chest/abs. 
> Tuesday - back. 
> Wednesday - shoulders/legs, PWO LIT. 
> Thursday - arms PWO LIT. 
> ...


Comments in bold

----------


## baddgsx

im finding that im not able to eat my required amounts of carbs on the carb load. It starts fri. after last workout to sat night. Its hard to eat all the carbs. Can i load up on Sun. aswell? I think that book written by Dan said that sun. is included in the carb load. I have to go back and check. 

Chris

----------


## **TOP**

> im finding that im not able to eat my required amounts of carbs on the carb load. It starts fri. after last workout to sat night. Its hard to eat all the carbs. Can i load up on Sun. aswell? I think that book written by Dan said that sun. is included in the carb load. I have to go back and check. 
> 
> Chris


Yup,but thats why dan said eat throughout the night.

----------


## gbrice75

I don't think i'll have ANY problem eating all of the carbs. I definitely am not going to be waking up throughout the night to eat though, IMO that's very impractical, and good solid sleep > eating. I will just be eating every 2 hours while i'm awake, with about 80g carbs per meal with higher GI carbs the 1st half of the day, and lower the 2nd half.

One thing though - I am finding that I am FAMISHED on this diet! It's obvious why; with fat containing more than 2x the amount of calories than the other macros and making up 65% of the diet - that's not alot of food! When I eat my ground beef/cheddar meal, I want to eat a pound of it but can only get 4oz in that meal. What i need to do is get more of a low fat protein (chicken) and pair it with a healthy fat such as avacado or nuts = more food, similar macros.

----------


## baddgsx

> Yup,but thats why dan said eat throughout the night.


Yea , i finished the book today , wow its long and informative. At the end he talks about how he wrote the book in prison. That sucks, i hope hes out and doing well for himself.

----------


## **TOP**

> Yea , i finished the book today , wow its long and informative. At the end he talks about how he wrote the book in prison. That sucks, i hope hes out and doing well for himself.


He is dead.

----------


## XRockXStarX

Hey guys, i was wanting to ask TOP specifically but anyone else can jump in.

I used to be 250 and was this way most my life... and today am down to 185 pounds.. i did this over two years but havent really been able to get the last bit off,ive been the same for a long time. my upper body is fairly lean but i hold a good amount on my hips butt and thighs(genetics)

Would a ketodiet help me tap into those ancient fat stores that have been on me. I assum yea, but curious to see what you have to sat

also id like a database or book to follow, so i know everything down to key, if i wanna do this diet.

----------


## Damienm05

> Hey guys, i was wanting to ask TOP specifically but anyone else can jump in.
> 
> I used to be 250 and was this way most my life... and today am down to 185 pounds.. i did this over two years but havent really been able to get the last bit off,ive been the same for a long time. my upper body is fairly lean but i hold a good amount on my hips butt and thighs(genetics)
> 
> Would a ketodiet help me tap into those ancient fat stores that have been on me. I assum yea, but curious to see what you have to sat
> 
> also id like a database or book to follow, so i know everything down to key, if i wanna do this diet.


A consistently clean diet and caloric deficit with minimal cheating and daily cardio WILL get that stubborn fat off. Keto diets are very effective for quick fat loss but not some overnight solution to what will take a couple months of hard work.

----------


## **TOP**

> A consistently clean diet and caloric deficit with minimal cheating and daily cardio WILL get that stubborn fat off. Keto diets are very effective for quick fat loss but not some overnight solution to what will take a couple months of hard work.


 :2biggrininvasion:  :2biggrininvasion:  :2biggrininvasion:  :2biggrininvasion:  *YUP*

----------


## Damienm05

> *YUP*


I now have epilepsy

----------


## Bren

My first week of this diet is almost behind me. Overall it was not that hard to fallow. My carb cravings didn't effect me much and I was never hungry. I am looking forward to my carb up tomorrow after my full body workout.

Has any one read this
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...enic-diet.html

----------


## energizer bunny

^^^^^^ ditto........i also feel great, training has gone well, no cravings at all, loving my breakfast bacon sausage cheese and eggs! lol......only one downside so far, is the nighttime hunger pains.....ill be droping carbs from 40ish to 30ish next week..

----------


## XRockXStarX

> I came up with my first 'menu' - one of many to come. Let me know what you think. I've even managed to squeeze in my skim milk!!! Of course depending on TOP's response regarding the PWO shake, it might wind up coming back out again:
> 
> *2000 Calories  60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs
> Daily Macros: 
> 1200 calories/130g fat
> 700 calories/175g protein
> 100 calories/25g carbs*
> 
> *Meal 1 4:30am*
> ...


This looks good but how bout the carb loading phase, can you post that. Thats the thing im most curious about.

----------


## **TOP**

> This looks good but how bout the carb loading phase, can you post that. Thats the thing im most curious about.


CARB LOAD RULES


STAGE 1 iNITIAL 24 HOURS
Feedings-12
carbs-16x lean bodyweight in kg
Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)

Meal 1-4 -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.

MEALS 5-8-These should be liquid carbs and solid high glycemic carbs(such as cornflakes) Eat 1.5 g of carbsper kg of lean bodyweight at each meal

Meal 9-12-Finally you get to eat some real food eat.5grams of solid starches and some liquid carbs per kg of lbm at each meal

STAGE2
Feedings-12
Type-Mixed,primarily starches

MEAL1-4-Each meal 1gram carbs per kg of lbm SINCE INSULIN SENSETIVITY IS DECLINING YOU SHOULD EAT MORE SOLID CARBS AND PROTEINS!

MEAL5-8-Eat .75 grams of carbs per lbm of normal food (rice,pasta,potatoes)

MEAL9-12-.5GRAMS OF CARBS. Since you want to begin lowering blood glucose before you begin another week of carb depletion,you should eat just the opposite of what you would expect! Go back tosimple liquid carbs and proteins.Basically you want a sugar crash to get you into low blood sugar. Yes insulin ishigher but the actual amount of carbs per meal is quite low.

TRY YOUR BEST TO STAY AWAY FROM FRUCTOSE AND SUCROSE,THESE REFILL LIVER THE MOST AND THATS WILL IN TURN TAKE YOU LONGER TO DEPLETE YOUR STORAGE.

By following this formula everyone will hit there 16grams over the duration no matter what difference you have in LBM from the next guy. I hope this helps people with carb loading...TOP

----------


## gbrice75

> This looks good but how bout the carb loading phase, can you post that. Thats the thing im most curious about.


Honstly i'm not following a strict diet over the 2 carb load days. I'm basically eating every 2 - 2.5 hours and taking about 80g of carbs over each meal. Meals will consist of: Pasta, Rice, Bagels, Breads, Cereal (Kashi, LOVE IT), potatoes, etc. 

If you really want to follow the BodyOpus plan, just follow what TOP posted above. For me, it's way too involved and regimented to follow, and i'm not going to wake up every 2 hours to eat. For me, a good night's sleep (which I rarely get on weekdays) > feeding throughout the night.

----------


## gbrice75

> Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)
> 
> Meal 1-4 -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.


*Can you give any examples of these drinks?*

----------


## danielli

^^x2

----------


## **TOP**

> *Can you give any examples of these drinks?*


I use MASS MAKER from BEVERLY INTERNATIONAL. Its maltodextrin.

----------


## Bren

what do you think of cytocarb? I have got some leftover.

http://www.discountsupplements.com/P...Show=TechSpecs

----------


## americanoak

> I havent tried this but a colleague sent it to me and it looks interesting anyone wanna give it a go????????????
> 
> *KETO CHOCALATE CAKE RECIPE*
> 
> 
> http://caloriecount.about.com/keto-c...recipe-r139204


def gonna have to try this

----------


## Machdiesel

Im in my first carb load and am pleasantly surprised its not as fun as i thought. I have lost appetite, get full much quicker, and have pretty much NOOO desire for carbs or sweets. I USED TO HAVE INSANE CRAVINGS. The only downfall was I crashed hard wed,thurs,fri. hopefully next week will be better

----------


## gbrice75

> Im in my first carb load and am pleasantly surprised its not as fun as i thought. I have lost appetite, get full much quicker, and have pretty much NOOO desire for carbs or sweets. I USED TO HAVE INSANE CRAVINGS. The only downfall was I crashed hard wed,thurs,fri. hopefully next week will be better


Strange, because i'm thoroughly enjoying mine. I've gotten to eat bagels, cereal, pasta, and right now i'm pretty effing drunk off of a few margaritas. Granted, not the greatest source of carbs (high fructose corn syrup), but I don't think it's gonna kill me.

----------


## Bren

> Im in my first carb load and am pleasantly surprised its not as fun as i thought. I have lost appetite, get full much quicker, and have pretty much NOOO desire for carbs or sweets. I USED TO HAVE INSANE CRAVINGS. The only downfall was I crashed hard wed,thurs,fri. hopefully next week will be better


I feel the same way. I am not craving carbs, I am eating them because a need to not because I want to. I get full on little portions and the carbs are making me feel sleepy all day. I had good energy all this week and I didn't lose any strength. I am looking forward to getting back on the diet and seeing better results this week.

----------


## Bren

> Strange, because i'm thoroughly enjoying mine. I've gotten to eat bagels, cereal, pasta, and right now i'm pretty effing drunk off of a few margaritas. Granted, not the greatest source of carbs (high fructose corn syrup), but I don't think it's gonna kill me.


Correct me if I am wrong but wont HFCS rapidly fill up your liver glycogen and slow down the whole ketogenic process? Granted, It will not kill you but it will slow down your results dramatically.

----------


## gbrice75

> Correct me if I am wrong but wont HFCS rapidly fill up your liver glycogen and slow down the whole ketogenic process? Granted, It will not kill you but it will slow down your results dramatically.


I'm over it now - yea, that was a stupid post, sorry. HFCS is not good no matter what diet you're doing.... I don't know it's specific effect on liver glycogen; I'm sure it's not beneficial in any way. But you have to live sometimes... that's once a week for me and I hope it's not too big a setback...

----------


## **TOP**

> what do you think of cytocarb? I have got some leftover.
> 
> http://www.discountsupplements.com/P...Show=TechSpecs


That would work but you will need to add some protein in with it.Try cytogainer or carbogain...TOP

----------


## **TOP**

> Im in my first carb load and am pleasantly surprised its not as fun as i thought. I have lost appetite, get full much quicker, and have pretty much NOOO desire for carbs or sweets. I USED TO HAVE INSANE CRAVINGS. The only downfall was I crashed hard wed,thurs,fri. hopefully next week will be better


HAHA yeah most people think its gonna be heaven but they usually end up sleepy and not wanting much food. Plus its hard because you have to limit fat,its not like you can go order shrimp cheese alfredo! Stick with the bagels you wont have as many sugar swings!

----------


## **TOP**

> Strange, because i'm thoroughly enjoying mine. I've gotten to eat bagels, cereal, pasta, and right now i'm pretty effing drunk off of a few margaritas. Granted, not the greatest source of carbs (high fructose corn syrup), but I don't think it's gonna kill me.





> I'm over it now - yea, that was a stupid post, sorry. HFCS is not good no matter what diet you're doing.... I don't know it's specific effect on liver glycogen; I'm sure it's not beneficial in any way. But you have to live sometimes... that's once a week for me and I hope it's not too big a setback...


*So this kinda pissed me off!!*

From all the bullshit post you have on this thread asking questions and being so nit-picky about everything ,you go and do something that could be one of the worst things to do for a weight loss diet!Im not really sure what to say??
I dont think i would have had a problem if anyone else told me this. Its not so much that you drank but that you clutter the thread with post asking about how bad artificial sweetners are, but then you go and have a full on testosterone suppressing,cortisol raising,alchohol,sugar,HFCS binge?? :Hmmmm: 

WTF?

If you are serious about your goals stay away from the things that limit your optimum potential!  :Rant: 


And yes BREN is correct fructose and sucrose have a main priority in filling liver glycogen first,this inturn is going to make it harder for you next week!

----------


## Bren

I am up 11lbs today, no big deal thought, this is to be expected. I am bloated as well so it looks like I gained weight but no worries, I am looking forward to getting back on track this week. 
I have not been this sore in years, I think it is because of the whole body workout on Friday. I have been separating body parts every workout since I was 19, so I think that has something to do with the DOMS I am experiencing today.

----------


## gbrice75

> *So this kinda pissed me off!!*
> 
> From all the bullshit post you have on this thread asking questions and being so nit-picky about everything ,you go and do something that could be one of the worst things to do for a weight loss diet!Im not really sure what to say??
> I dont think i would have had a problem if anyone else told me this. Its not so much that you drank but that you clutter the thread with post asking about how bad artificial sweetners are, but then you go and have a full on testosterone suppressing,cortisol raising,alchohol,sugar,HFCS binge??
> 
> WTF?
> 
> If you are serious about your goals stay away from the things that limit your optimum potential! 
> 
> ...


Not sure what to say here... sorry? I didn't realize I was cluttering your thread; being annoying certainly wasn't my intention, but rest assured it'll stop now that i'm aware of how obnoxious i'm coming off. 

I ask alot of questions because I like to be informed. I don't like doing 'this or that' just because somebody tells me to, I like to know WHY. You consider it cluttering the thread with bullshit posts, I consider it being a relatively intelligent and informed person. I'm not a robot. 

All that said, I went out for dinner with my wife last night and had 3 1/2 margaritas (not sure what the F they put in there to get me drunk off of 3!). I have been so godamn strict for the past year and 3 months, and didn't realize a few drinks was selling my soul to the devil. Yes, I know that alcohol is bad for any diet, and the particular drinks I had were a double wammy with alcohol and alot of shit sugar. I see people who are on strict diets that take cheat days every week and eat pizza, chips, cake, ice cream, all the shit you can think of - I *never* do that and that seems much worse to me. BTW - they still seem to recognize their fat loss goals. I would never do this (the drinking) during the week, I don't 'break' my diet. I didn't think it was the worst thing to do during my carb load weekend. Guess I was wrong, we live and learn.

Sorry again for cluttering your thread with useless shit.

----------


## Machdiesel

Just to slip this in I recently started using Stevia, and if it is as healthy as the studies show it really is amazing. Flavor is great and is 600x sweater then splenda so you only have to use very little. Def check it out. When I was on a regular diet one small packet was enough to sweeten 1 cup of oatmeal. Also if you are looking for a good carb drink with no artificial sweetners or aspartame try out Cytomax Natural, mix this with some tasteless whey and your all set

----------


## energizer bunny

well lol......i had a litre of vodka lastnite! ive actually felt worse eating carbs this weekend than anytime last week without them!....ill be glad to back on the bacon, salmon and chicken lol......

----------


## Machdiesel

^^^ I am going to puke right now, I used to look forward to carbs, now all I can think about is that nice lite green salad with mozz cheese balls and grilled chicken

----------


## gbrice75

I guess i'm still in carb mode, because i'm missing my carbs and feeling hungry as hell again...

----------


## **TOP**

> Not sure what to say here... sorry? I didn't realize I was cluttering your thread; being annoying certainly wasn't my intention, but rest assured it'll stop now that i'm aware of how obnoxious i'm coming off. 
> 
> I ask alot of questions because I like to be informed. I don't like doing 'this or that' just because somebody tells me to, I like to know WHY. You consider it cluttering the thread with bullshit posts, I consider it being a relatively intelligent and informed person. I'm not a robot. 
> 
> All that said, I went out for dinner with my wife last night and had 3 1/2 margaritas (not sure what the F they put in there to get me drunk off of 3!). I have been so godamn strict for the past year and 3 months, and didn't realize a few drinks was selling my soul to the devil. Yes, I know that alcohol is bad for any diet, and the particular drinks I had were a double wammy with alcohol and alot of shit sugar. I see people who are on strict diets that take cheat days every week and eat pizza, chips, cake, ice cream, all the shit you can think of - I *never* do that and that seems much worse to me. BTW - they still seem to recognize their fat loss goals. I would never do this (the drinking) during the week, I don't 'break' my diet. I didn't think it was the worst thing to do during my carb load weekend. Guess I was wrong, we live and learn.
> 
> Sorry again for cluttering your thread with useless shit.


Like i said my point was not that you drank alchohol ,t was that you seem to be so anal about little things and then something huge like alchohol comes about and you seem to have no problem at all doing that. Do you see my point? Here is an example,you worried yourself about having a diet root
beer the other day ,but then you go and have 31/2 margaritas. This is what i didnt understand.

----------


## gbrice75

> Like i said my point was not that you drank alchohol ,t was that you seem to be so anal about little things and then something huge like alchohol comes about and you seem to have no problem at all doing that. Do you see my point? Here is an example,you worried yourself about having a diet root
> beer the other day ,but then you go and have 31/2 margaritas. This is what i didnt understand.


TOP - I completely understand. However, it has less to do with me being anal and alot more to do with learning and having the knowledge. In other words, I am constantly seeking information and asking questions. That doesn't mean that I will always make the right decisions based on that knowledge. If I were being anal, i'd be following the carb load of BodyOpus 100%, but i'm not. I read that artificial sweetners are bad during keto; I wanted a second opinion, that's all.

Again, I honestly didn't think drinking a few margaritas (I wouldn't call 3 1/2 a binge) was that bad during the carb load - I would never do this during the week because it's obvious how detrimental that would be. If it's that detrimental in general, then I have to consider this a lesson learned. It was just a bit shocking when I felt like I was being crucified for it.

I always appreciate your opinion or I wouldn't be asking questions. I hope I can continue to post in your thread without feeling like i'm annoying you.

----------


## Damienm05

With regard to alcohol, and I say this with no intention of being a dick, it should be an obvious exclusion from the lifestyle of anyone dedicated to their physique enough to pursue a strict BB diet. I mean, if I didn't have the willpower not to drink while I on a strict cutting regiment, I certainly wouldn't have the willpower to be on said regiment in the first place.

Also, I work as a bartender and I'll tell you right now - for each one of my Long Islands or margaritas, you may as well be eating a bag of sour-patch kids candy because any good bar man knows to load that shit up with simple syrup and sour mix. Remember, even 1 shot of tequila is 100 calories. Make that 2 shots, add the syrup, sour, cointreau, and a float of Grand Marnier and multiply by however many you have. Then add that to your total cals for the day via food. You've negated a week of fat loss. 

Not directed at you specifically Gbrice - just trying to emphasize how bad these drinks really are. What ever happened to Jack and Diet?

----------


## Bren

> With regard to alcohol, and I say this with no intention of being a dick, it should be an obvious exclusion from the lifestyle of anyone dedicated to their physique enough to pursue a strict BB diet. I mean, if I didn't have the willpower not to drink while I on a strict cutting regiment, I certainly wouldn't have the willpower to be on said regiment in the first place.
> 
> Also, I work as a bartender and I'll tell you right now - for each one of my Long Islands or margaritas, you may as well be eating a bag of sour-patch kids candy because any good bar man knows to load that shit up with simple syrup and sour mix. Remember, even 1 shot of tequila is 100 calories. Make that 2 shots, add the syrup, sour, cointreau, and a float of Grand Marnier and multiply by however many you have. Then add that to your total cals for the day via food. You've negated a week of fat loss. 
> 
> Not directed at you specifically Gbrice - just trying to emphasize how bad these drinks really are. What ever happened to Jack and Diet?


Tank you for spelling that out, people do not realize how bad alcohol really is, especially for the bodybuilder.
On top of the de-hydration, alcohol has been shown in many studies to lower serum testosterone levels and if that isn't bad enough, it also increases the body's output of CORTISOL! 
If that sounds bad, that's because it is, this would set anyone back a week in just one night. Bottom line; not worth it, carb load or not.

----------


## dhriscerr

> Always measure raw.


OH S#@T I bet Im 400 calories a day atleast over what I thought  :Chairshot:

----------


## dhriscerr

> The formula for the carb load is also debatable, but from what ive seen most do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say *150* you divide that by* 2.2* which =*68*/ * 68* multiplied by "we will say *14*" =*952* carbs divide by 24 hours which is *12* meals would be *79* carbs per meal.
> 
> Like i said there are many variations of the carb load but this is probably the easiest. So you can see how your cals will skyrocket depending on your lean body mass,this is why i said mine can reach over 10,000 in a period/ 952 carbs by4=3808cals just from carbs alone another 20-30 %from protein and the rest from fat and you have a a loaded weapon!!
> 
> If this write up confuses you ill try to help with the formula better but its looks easy as i can get it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*A big thanks to TOP and MG* :BbAily:

----------


## gbrice75

> With regard to alcohol, and I say this with no intention of being a dick, it should be an obvious exclusion from the lifestyle of anyone dedicated to their physique enough to pursue a strict BB diet. I mean, if I didn't have the willpower not to drink while I on a strict cutting regiment, I certainly wouldn't have the willpower to be on said regiment in the first place.
> 
> Also, I work as a bartender and I'll tell you right now - for each one of my Long Islands or margaritas, you may as well be eating a bag of sour-patch kids candy because any good bar man knows to load that shit up with simple syrup and sour mix. Remember, even 1 shot of tequila is 100 calories. Make that 2 shots, add the syrup, sour, cointreau, and a float of Grand Marnier and multiply by however many you have. Then add that to your total cals for the day via food. You've negated a week of fat loss. 
> 
> Not directed at you specifically Gbrice - just trying to emphasize how bad these drinks really are. What ever happened to Jack and Diet?


Thanks Damien, no offense taken at all, actually I appreciate the info. I knew it was bad, but had no idea it was THAT bad. 

I think my biggest problem is this: if I started out as a 'regular' guy where my cut diet lasted a few months, I could abstane from alcohol for that period of time, no problem. Since I started out at 80+ lbs. overweight, i've been on a 'cutting' diet for over a year and am just getting really tired of saying no to myself, plain and simple. It's just getting old, and I expected to look alot better by now, I expected to be eating to GROW by now. My fault for clearly underestimating how tough this would be, ESPECIALLY this last 10-15lbs of fat. 

That said, I have a bachelor party this weekend and i'm the best man; it's gonna be tough to sit there and be stone cold sober while everybody goes wild around me. It's not even practical. Probably gonna be another week shot to shit, i'm sorry to say.

----------


## energizer bunny

> Thanks Damien, no offense taken at all, actually I appreciate the info. I knew it was bad, but had no idea it was THAT bad. 
> 
> I think my biggest problem is this: if I started out as a 'regular' guy where my cut diet lasted a few months, I could abstane from alcohol for that period of time, no problem. Since I started out at 80+ lbs. overweight, i've been on a 'cutting' diet for over a year and am just getting really tired of saying no to myself, plain and simple. It's just getting old, and I expected to look alot better by now, I expected to be eating to GROW by now. My fault for clearly underestimating how tough this would be, ESPECIALLY this last 10-15lbs of fat. 
> 
> That said, I have a bachelor party this weekend and i'm the best man; it's gonna be tough to sit there and be stone cold sober while everybody goes wild around me. It's not even practical. Probably gonna be another week shot to shit, i'm sorry to say.


Dont beat yourself up mate......and if you want a drink at the weekend then do it! shit you only live once and your the best man!.......just dont tell anyone on the thread! LOL

i can understand TOPs and Damiens position but they are 100% bodybuilders thats there life......us mere mortals lol....have to do the best we can with what we have...

----------


## Damienm05

> Thanks Damien, no offense taken at all, actually I appreciate the info. I knew it was bad, but had no idea it was THAT bad. 
> 
> I think my biggest problem is this: if I started out as a 'regular' guy where my cut diet lasted a few months, I could abstane from alcohol for that period of time, no problem. Since I started out at 80+ lbs. overweight, i've been on a 'cutting' diet for over a year and am just getting really tired of saying no to myself, plain and simple. It's just getting old, and I expected to look alot better by now, I expected to be eating to GROW by now. My fault for clearly underestimating how tough this would be, ESPECIALLY this last 10-15lbs of fat. 
> 
> That said, I have a bachelor party this weekend and i'm the best man; it's gonna be tough to sit there and be stone cold sober while everybody goes wild around me. It's not even practical. Probably gonna be another week shot to shit, i'm sorry to say.


First of all; how many times will you be the best-man at a friend's wedding in your life? I think not enough to justify missing out on the food/drink - sometimes you just have to say f*ck it and live your life. Rome wasn't built in a day but it didn't collapse in just one day either.

I went through the same phase you're currently enduring over the summer. I fell off my diet and training/diet regiment for over a year and gained 50 lbs. For those who know how anal I am about dieting, it may be hard to believe. Even harder to believe from someone like me, I couldn't stand being out of shape for another day, so I went on a crash diet of under 1000 cals per day and trained like an animal - I lost that weight in 2 months. Sure enough, that last 10-15 lbs. wouldn't go. In fact, it looked terrible since it was only stored in my love handles and belly, my extremities were ripped.

I started eating a real BB diet and making nice gains but always had that loose skin/belly fat hanging over my head. I fell into this phase of self-pity as I watched everyone around me eat, drink, and be merry. I started joining in the festivities and was taking steps back before I knew it. Finally, I accepted that if I was gonna be able to be ~10% bf again, while having regular cheat days/meals I would have to do a lot of cardio because I had clearly damaged my BMR. So, I began running outside every morning at top speed for 30 minutes or until my lungs failed and doing 60 minutes LIT PWO. Within 60 days, I had abs again and now, I really don't have any urge to cheat.

And f*ck - I keep ranting on this thread. My bad.

----------


## edgarr

> Thanks Damien, no offense taken at all, actually I appreciate the info. I knew it was bad, but had no idea it was THAT bad. 
> 
> I think my biggest problem is this: if I started out as a 'regular' guy where my cut diet lasted a few months, I could abstane from alcohol for that period of time, no problem. Since I started out at 80+ lbs. overweight, i've been on a 'cutting' diet for over a year and am just getting really tired of saying no to myself, plain and simple. It's just getting old, and I expected to look alot better by now, I expected to be eating to GROW by now. My fault for clearly underestimating how tough this would be, ESPECIALLY this last 10-15lbs of fat. 
> 
> That said, I have a bachelor party this weekend and i'm the best man; it's gonna be tough to sit there and be stone cold sober while everybody goes wild around me. It's not even practical. *Probably gonna be another week shot to shit, i'm sorry to say*.


I don't agree with this at all. What if you work extra hard that week and extra hard the next week, ie. instead of being 500cals under tdee go 700, add extra cardio, wouldn't this offset the extra cals? What if you only drank vodka and water? Ok, so not much can be done about lowering TEST levels but how old are you, what are your test levels? What if you are supplementing with TEST? 

I am no BB or Model, I am reaching my goals....yes, as fast as I would like...no, but who REALLY does? Life is more then just 1 or 2 goals.....have FUN or it will pass you by!

----------


## qwert

does anyone know if pan frying the meats with sunflower oil would be ok for this diet?

and the sugars in whey protein does it matter?

----------


## Swifto

> YES, but so will a 40/40/20 and alot of other diets out there. Im not trying to say this is the only diet that works. I happen to also like 40/40/20. Although i think this is one of the best for muscle preservation and also it helps people feal like they are cheating so mentally it helps also.
> 
> This diet has also been around for a very long long time.
> 
> *Also they put people on KETO diets that have epileptic seizures,just an interesting bonus*!


.....

Edit: I've found what I was looking for.

----------


## gbrice75

> Dont beat yourself up mate......and if you want a drink at the weekend then do it! shit you only live once and your the best man!.......just dont tell anyone on the thread! LOL
> 
> i can understand TOPs and Damiens position but they are 100% bodybuilders thats there life......us mere mortals lol....have to do the best we can with what we have...


Thanks bro! I just need to find a comfortable balance of what I want for my body, and enjoying my life at the same time. TOP and Damien got where they were due to being ultra dedicated; I don't know that I have that in me, but at the same time i've proven to myself that I can be alot more dedicated than I ever though - you should have seen my lifestyle 1.5 years ago.

----------


## gbrice75

> First of all; how many times will you be the best-man at a friend's wedding in your life? I think not enough to justify missing out on the food/drink - sometimes you just have to say f*ck it and live your life. Rome wasn't built in a day but it didn't collapse in just one day either.
> 
> *Thank you for the encouragement bro! The idea of negating an entire week of dieting from a few hours of drinking (I think you posted that earlier) frankly scares the $hit out of me...but like you said, I do need to live my life as it's the only one I have.*
> 
> I went through the same phase you're currently enduring over the summer. I fell off my diet and training/diet regiment for over a year and gained 50 lbs. For those who know how anal I am about dieting, it may be hard to believe. Even harder to believe from someone like me, I couldn't stand being out of shape for another day, so I went on a crash diet of under 1000 cals per day and trained like an animal - I lost that weight in 2 months. Sure enough, that last 10-15 lbs. wouldn't go. In fact, it looked terrible since it was only stored in my love handles and belly, my extremities were ripped.
> 
> *Wow, you're absolutely right when you say this is what i'm going through right now! I wouldn't say my extremities are ripped and i'm sure you had/have alot more muscle mass than I, but true that my absolute worst areas are my sides and belly - and strangely enough the lower outer portion of my chest (I can still fill an a cup).*
> 
> I started eating a real BB diet and making nice gains but always had that loose skin/belly fat hanging over my head. I fell into this phase of self-pity as I watched everyone around me eat, drink, and be merry. I started joining in the festivities and was taking steps back before I knew it. Finally, I accepted that if I was gonna be able to be ~10% bf again, while having regular cheat days/meals I would have to do a lot of cardio because I had clearly damaged my BMR. So, I began running outside every morning at top speed for 30 minutes or until my lungs failed and doing 60 minutes LIT PWO. Within 60 days, I had abs again and now, I really don't have any urge to cheat.
> ...


Comments in bold

----------


## gbrice75

> I don't agree with this at all. What if you work extra hard that week and extra hard the next week, ie. instead of being 500cals under tdee go 700, add extra cardio, wouldn't this offset the extra cals? What if you only drank vodka and water? Ok, so not much can be done about lowering TEST levels but how old are you, what are your test levels? What if you are supplementing with TEST? 
> 
> *I guess that's what i'm going to have to do. I'm 34 - I don't know what my test levels are but i'm willing to bet they're relatively low. I am not currently on any AAS or supplements other than protein, fish oil, creatine and a multi-vitamin.*
> 
> I am no BB or Model, I am reaching my goals....yes, as fast as I would like...no, but who REALLY does? Life is more then just 1 or 2 goals.....have FUN or it will pass you by!
> 
> *Agreed! I spent the last 10 years hiding and being a fat fv(k, I am now relatively 'normal' and would like to enjoy being alive again just a bit!*


Comments above in bold

----------


## Bren

Half way through my 2nd week on the diet. Looking forward to the gym today. So far no strength loss on my Monday workout. I can already see that i am more vascular and i can see more definition in my abs. On my carb load days i have been taking allot of Metamucil as a part of the carb load to make sure i am regular and it is working well.

----------


## edgarr

> Comments above in bold


What it is worth. I am on HRT so have routine blood work done. One time I decieded to do it back to back after a long, hard drinking weekend. Before weekend 280 after weekend 288 (which is still low). Now in all fairness I was having sex all weekend too so that may have helped elevate them but all the alcohol did not lower them.

Of course my levels are really low but just thought it was interesting.

----------


## Damienm05

> does anyone know if pan frying the meats with sunflower oil would be ok for this diet?
> 
> and the sugars in whey protein does it matter?


There are no carbs in sunflower oil. Same with meat. Answer: of course it would be fine.

It depends what brand you use, some have as much as 10g of sugar per 40g protein. If that's what the label says, then yes, it matters and you should switch. If there is only 1-2g of sugar and 5-7g net carbs (most whey protein) then 1 shake PWO is fine.

----------


## qwert

alright. it's in the safe zone. thanks for clearing that up. 

2nd week of keto and everything is on track.

----------


## dhriscerr

> What it is worth. I am on HRT so have routine blood work done. One time I decieded to do it back to back after a long, hard drinking weekend. Before weekend 280 after weekend 288 (which is still low). Now in all fairness I was having sex all weekend too so that may have helped elevate them but all the alcohol did not lower them.
> 
> Of course my levels are really low but just thought it was interesting.


HRT wouldn't that shut down your natural production anyway and you would be reading values strickly off the HRT dosing? So if your getting synthetic testosterone in your system alcohol probably wont affect it the same as it would natural testosterone, albeit possibly deregulating receptors a bit. If your on HRT nothing should really move your #'s excpet raising or lowering your dose. Its not like you have partial natural testosterone and partial synthetic you either have one or the other.

----------


## baddgsx

Top


My carb up days are the hardest but are getting better and better. What's the best cereal to eat on the carb up days? I'm thinking mini-wheats without the frosting. I came accross these bars called cliff bars at the supermarket and they have them at the gas stations. It has some vitamins 5g fat , 44g carbs 20 of it sugar and 10g pro 250 calories. And it's super tastey. Is the sugar in this bad for the carb up day. It's not fructose. 

Thanks , chris

----------


## gbrice75

> What's the best cereal to eat on the carb up days?
> 
> Thanks , chris


Personally, I LOVE Kashi Go Lean cereals... I could live off of them! My Favs are the Honey Almond Flax, and the Berry Crumble. They have around 4-5g fat per serving, 35-30g carbs, and a few grams of protein - but the ingredients are way better than alot of cereals out there, much more natural. Try and find them, I don't think you'll be disappointed!

----------


## Bren

OH man, I love Kashi cereals. You should try the toasted berry crumble. 
9g Protein 8g fiber 18g of whole grains 190calories 4 grams of fat

----------


## BigTMan123

Quick question:

Would you recommend using pre-workout supplements like Jack3d or NO-Explode on the lifting days?

Thanks.

----------


## BigTMan123

> There are no carbs in sunflower oil. Same with meat. Answer: of course it would be fine.
> 
> It depends what brand you use, some have as much as 10g of sugar per 40g protein. If that's what the label says, then yes, it matters and you should switch. If there is only 1-2g of sugar and 5-7g net carbs (most whey protein) then 1 shake PWO is fine.


FWIW, I use ON Gold Standard Whey (Delicious Strawberry) ... it's only 2g carb per serving.

----------


## edgarr

> HRT wouldn't that shut down your natural production anyway and you would be reading values strickly off the HRT dosing? So if your getting synthetic testosterone in your system alcohol probably wont affect it the same as it would natural testosterone, albeit possibly deregulating receptors a bit. If your on HRT nothing should really move your #'s excpet raising or lowering your dose. Its not like you have partial natural testosterone and partial synthetic you either have one or the other.


You are correct however this was after coming off of HRT for more then a year, long story but had some prostate issues. So I was natural at this time of testing. 

Just to be clear. I'm not promoting drinking.......I am promoting living your life the way that you want!

----------


## Bren

last week there was no hunger and no cravings, but I am really looking forward to start of my carb load tomorrow. I have had carb cravings all day today. When I get real bad cravings I just chew some sugar free gum. The end of my 2nd week and I can see some results already. Next week's results should be even better.

----------


## mg1228

u guys noticing any cramping coming off the carb up---my wife seems to get bad cramps in her leg in the middle of the night and it usually happens like 1-2 days after having carbs----

----------


## baddgsx

> u guys noticing any cramping coming off the carb up---my wife seems to get bad cramps in her leg in the middle of the night and it usually happens like 1-2 days after having carbs----


Nahhh , ill check next week to see if i feel any. I did notice that if i dont have liquid carbs the first 4 meals im hurting on the toliet. The liquids first 4 meals are key for me on good digestion. 

Does anyone get loss of breath? Sometimes i feel like i have really suck in air to get oxygen.

----------


## Damienm05

> u guys noticing any cramping coming off the carb up---my wife seems to get bad cramps in her leg in the middle of the night and it usually happens like 1-2 days after having carbs----


Thank god someone else had this issue. I'm not on CKD but I had a big carb-up upon starting PCT and had horrible cramps/pumps the day after! I was stupidly vascular as well. It subsided quickly and I was strong as hell for those 2 days, despite cramped.

----------


## energizer bunny

i feel fine during the week and my intense workouts are going great......but i feel sick as a dog right now, after my first liquid carb meal....i did last week all night....

----------


## edgarr

> Nahhh , ill check next week to see if i feel any. I did notice that if i dont have liquid carbs the first 4 meals im hurting on the toliet. The liquids first 4 meals are key for me on good digestion. 
> 
> Does anyone get loss of breath? Sometimes i feel like i have really suck in air to get oxygen.


Do you ever add Clen while on this diet, if so how's it going?

----------


## dhriscerr

No one caught my post a few days ago, when you do your first 4 liquid carb meals after your full body friday work out, do you do 4 whey shakes with them or do you do regular food. It said to add liquid protein in with them but I want to know if I am taking whey and malto at 6pm, 8pm, 10pm, 12pm or just the 6pm with malto then regular food and malto the next 3. Thanks!

----------


## baddgsx

> No one caught my post a few days ago, when you do your first 4 liquid carb meals after your full body friday work out, do you do 4 whey shakes with them or do you do regular food. It said to add liquid protein in with them but I want to know if I am taking whey and malto at 6pm, 8pm, 10pm, 12pm or just the 6pm with malto then regular food and malto the next 3. Thanks!



I use 20 grams of whey powder on each of the 4 liquid carb meals.

----------


## baddgsx

> Do you ever add Clen while on this diet, if so how's it going?


I got my clen wicked fast from ar-r . 4-5 days. I've been on it for about a week and notice that I'm loosing bodyfat faster. I also take 2 pills with chromium and green tea.

----------


## edgarr

Well thinking about giving this diet up and trying a 40/40/20. Unless you guys think I should keep going. Not sure if my body likes fats. I just completed week 8. My first week I lost 5lbs, 185 to 180 and have been there ever since (well this week I lost 2). I would say that I have lost fat but I wonder if that is more from the workouts. I took over a year off and climbed over 20% BF so how could I not lose. I have been eating at around 400 under TDEE plus doing cardio. In fact the last two weeks I started twice a day, 50 mins am LIT and 30 mins after workout which is 5 days a week. I still need to lose a lot of BF so not sure CKD is for me right now.

----------


## dhriscerr

> Well thinking about giving this diet up and trying a 40/40/20. Unless you guys think I should keep going. Not sure if my body likes fats. I just completed week 8. My first week I lost 5lbs, 185 to 180 and have been there ever since (well this week I lost 2). I would say that I have lost fat but I wonder if that is more from the workouts. I took over a year off and climbed over 20% BF so how could I not lose. I have been eating at around 400 under TDEE plus doing cardio. In fact the last two weeks I started twice a day, 50 mins am LIT and 30 mins after workout which is 5 days a week. I still need to lose a lot of BF so not sure CKD is for me right now.


If after 2 weeks went by maybe your TDEE is off of what you calculated and at that time start dropping cals by 100-200 cals a day until you get back into the fat loss.

if you have 2400 then after 2 weeks and your diet and cardio is good drop to 2300 for 2 weeks if not enough drop to 2200 and so on, eventually you have to lose weight, the goal is just not to lose muscle with it so baby steps to find what your body likes.

----------


## Bren

> Well thinking about giving this diet up and trying a 40/40/20. Unless you guys think I should keep going. Not sure if my body likes fats. I just completed week 8. My first week I lost 5lbs, 185 to 180 and have been there ever since (well this week I lost 2). I would say that I have lost fat but I wonder if that is more from the workouts. I took over a year off and climbed over 20% BF so how could I not lose. I have been eating at around 400 under TDEE plus doing cardio. In fact the last two weeks I started twice a day, 50 mins am LIT and 30 mins after workout which is 5 days a week. I still need to lose a lot of BF so not sure CKD is for me right now.


Maybe you should start forming the habit of forming a habit. 2 months is all you gave this diet and you are already wanting to give up? where is the logic here? Everybody on this thread is having good results, and loosing 2lbs of solid fat a week is not bad at all. You need to plan long term fat loss goals, it is not just going to fall off. You cant expect to loose 5lbs every week, also do NOT go by the scale, go by how you look. My weight fluctuates up and down from 1-10lbs depending on the day. I hope you stick with this man, it really does work well.

----------


## edgarr

> If after 2 weeks went by maybe your TDEE is off of what you calculated and at that time start dropping cals by 100-200 cals a day until you get back into the fat loss.
> 
> if you have 2400 then after 2 weeks and your diet and cardio is good drop to 2300 for 2 weeks if not enough drop to 2200 and so on, eventually you have to lose weight, the goal is just not to lose muscle with it so baby steps to find what your body likes.


I have done this twice. I am eating around 1900 cals, if mod active I should be at 2600 TDEE and light active 2300, if I eat less I will have zero energy, plus I burn around 600 cals doing cardio. My raitos are right at 65/30/5. Maybe its my carb up days but if I skip those I will also lose energy.

----------


## edgarr

> Maybe you should start forming the habit of forming a habit. 2 months is all you gave this diet and you are already wanting to give up? where is the logic here? Everybody on this thread is having good results, and loosing 2lbs of solid fat a week is not bad at all. You need to plan long term fat loss goals, it is not just going to fall off. You cant expect to loose 5lbs every week, also do NOT go by the scale, go by how you look. My weight fluctuates up and down from 1-10lbs depending on the day. I hope you stick with this man, it really does work well.


Well this is why I am asking. Is 8 weeks not enough?? I hear of people down 15 plus pounds in less time. 

where is the logic here

My logic is that maybe my body does not reacte well to fat, this can be true and has been true to many on this board, if not then everyone would use this diet.

----------


## energizer bunny

^^^^^ i think im the oposite, my body seems to thrive on fats!....carb load is tough!

----------


## americanoak

> I have done this twice. I am eating around 1900 cals, if mod active I should be at 2600 TDEE and light active 2300, if I eat less I will have zero energy, plus I burn around 600 cals doing cardio. My raitos are right at 65/30/5. Maybe its my carb up days but if I skip those I will also lose energy.


maybe you arent going into ketosis or you are screwing up your carb load

----------


## americanoak

what do your guys post workout meals look like?

----------


## Machdiesel

I have a quetion about going to the bathroom. Ive noticed I am not taking ANY dumps during the week, then on my carb up days I make up for lost time. I assume this is normal because of me not ingesting any carbs/fiber during the week. Just making sure this is normal

----------


## edgarr

> maybe you arent going into ketosis or you are screwing up your carb load


I am. I know when I do and it happens fairly quickly, like 2 days.

----------


## edgarr

> I have a quetion about going to the bathroom. Ive noticed I am not taking ANY dumps during the week, then on my carb up days I make up for lost time. I assume this is normal because of me not ingesting any carbs/fiber during the week. Just making sure this is normal


Normal. I do go during the week but not as often

----------


## energizer bunny

> I have a quetion about going to the bathroom. Ive noticed I am not taking ANY dumps during the week, then on my carb up days I make up for lost time. I assume this is normal because of me not ingesting any carbs/fiber during the week. Just making sure this is normal


yeah i only seem to go a couple of times during the week, i dont feel bad just dont need to go often...........i get bloated, sickly, bad stomache over the weekend.....the carb loads are tough for me!

----------


## Machdiesel

Yea I def get bloated. Over the past 2 weeks I havent lost any weight at all!!! After the carb up I am up about 6-8 lbs then just lose that over the week, then at carb up its back again. I am going to give it one more week. I did notice this week I had more energy though so that is promising

----------


## energizer bunny

i weigh my self occasionaly, i dont give a shit about my weight, just go off how i look in the mirror......i used to weigh myself weekly and found it very demotivating..

----------


## edgarr

> Yea I def get bloated. Over the past 2 weeks I havent lost any weight at all!!! After the carb up I am up about 6-8 lbs then just lose that over the week, then at carb up its back again. I am going to give it one more week. I did notice this week I had more energy though so that is promising


this is the goal, if you can lose fat only while gaining muscle you shouldn't lose much weight. But I now want to lose the fat quicker so don't really care if I lose muscle too. I think I will go 2 more weeks on this and see.

----------


## americanoak

anyone wanna post a sample post wo meal

----------


## Machdiesel

On a regular day just 2 scoops of whey for me. Some people like to add some natty PB I personally use that pre workout. It might just be a mental thing to ingest something pre-workout but I feel like I have alil more energy

----------


## edgarr

> anyone wanna post a sample post wo meal


isopure protein and udo's

----------


## energizer bunny

whey and EVOO in water during the week........whey,dextrose and peanut butter in milk on a friday..

----------


## HeavyL

edgar the solution to your problem is simple.. dont carb up every sixth day, give it another 2 days or so

----------


## edgarr

> edgar the solution to your problem is simple.. dont carb up every sixth day, give it another 2 days or so


dam, thats the best part lol. but right now i carb up on the 7th day only, so Mon trough Sat i eat pro/fat only, then dinner Sat I start my carb up and keep going until Sunday bed time then start keto right back up Monday morning. I'll drop some cals this week and see how that goes.

----------


## Choppers

Just out of curiosity how much are people losing per week on this diet? 

Been on and off this diet numerous time over the past 18 months or so. 

This time I lost 9 lbs in a week, had next week off and gained 3, back on but had a shortened ketosis period due to unexpected family meal - lost 3 and now back on again being uber strict and will try a longer ketosis period of 10 days to maximize weight loss. So far looking lean and feeling great. 

This is the easiest diet in the World for me. I've adjusted my food intake accordingly and leave all my pre-cooked food in boxes in the fridge in portion controlled sizes and with a variety to keep it interesting.

Portion size is critical here. I've learn the hard way before not to eat huge meals on it. I also take my carb loading slightly less serious and eat a normal balanced diet with perhaps a little extra carby-sugary food but not forcing it down obsesively. 

A lot of this is trial and error and seeing what works for you. If you're not losing weight cut back on the food slightly but remember with fat at 9 calories a gram, portion sizes will be naturally be slightly smaller than normal.

I also avoid the 30g carbs a day if poss. A lady at work is eating minimal amount of carbs like berries etc after she sought advice from a nutrionist so will be interesting to compare results. But I find that after a heavy Sun gym session/run by Mon evening I'm already on ketosis leaving 4 full days to burn fat before usual Fri evening normal meals.

----------


## edgarr

> Just out of curiosity how much are people losing per week on this diet? 
> 
> Been on and off this diet numerous time over the past 18 months or so. 
> 
> This time I lost 9 lbs in a week, had next week off and gained 3, back on but had a shortened ketosis period due to unexpected family meal - lost 3 and now back on again being uber strict and will try a longer ketosis period of 10 days to maximize weight loss. So far looking lean and feeling great. 
> 
> This is the easiest diet in the World for me. I've adjusted my food intake accordingly and leave all my pre-cooked food in boxes in the fridge in portion controlled sizes and with a variety to keep it interesting.
> 
> Portion size is critical here. I've learn the hard way before not to eat huge meals on it. I also take my carb loading slightly less serious and eat a normal balanced diet with perhaps a little extra carby-sugary food but not forcing it down obsesively. 
> ...


I do measure all my meals and bag them up. Only difference is that mine are really boring, meaning I eat the same thing every day. Last week I changed from red meats to white and fish, that is when I lost 2 0r 3 lbs so I will stick with that for the next 2 weeks and see. 

Everyone posting here has had success with losing weight on this diet but has anyone had success with JUST losing BF on this diet? Also anyone not have success with this diet (not sure why you would be reading this post)?

----------


## Swifto

> I would NOT advocate this diet for pregnant women,breast feeding women,or children.There are way to many things going on in the diet that could effect hormones. Tell her to wait until off breastfeeding for 2 months!...TOP


This is diet is safe for children, from what I have seen.

Keto diets have been used as treatment in children with epilepsy since the 1920's and show very promising results. 

My GF is epileptic and I've currently got her on low carbs, high fat, moderate protein. She takes medication for it, but still gets the odd seizure. It will be intresting to see how effective this diet is for her, but in the studies I have seen recently, the results are good.

----------


## HeavyL

it takes some time to figure out your body reacts with carbs.. I tend to hold onto carbs longer then some, so i carb up every 10th day or so..

----------


## americanoak

how many % body fat have u guys lost so far on this diet? How long were u on it for too

----------


## edgarr

> how many % body fat have u guys lost so far on this diet? How long were u on it for too


8 weeks and around 2%

----------


## edgarr

one thing I notice is I am very hungry the day after the carb load. I start the day with HIIT cardio to speed up the ketosis process so I am sure I am craving. I bet I will be in ketosis by tomorrow. Maybe I'm not getting enough carbs during the load?

----------


## baddgsx

im on the diet for awhile now. My weight is starting to fluctuate more on my carb up days. used to be around 4 pounds , now this week i gained 8 pounds on my carb up day. I dont let the scale bother me , its all about the mirror now. every week i evalutate my self in the mirror. Im finally starting to see that Vertical line down the center of my abbs. Im going to stick to it for another 3 months , OR till i reach 6% bodyfat. Which ever come first and then ill start my AAS. I cant wait for that!!!!!!!!!!


Edgar , i suggest you give it some more time. Also , HeavyL's idea sounds great!!! , add a couple more days of ketosis before the carb up. Might help alot. 


Chris

----------


## danielli

> one thing I notice is I am very hungry the day after the carb load....


I'm opposite...I am not hungry at all the day after th carb load. Anyone else?? It's like I have to force myself to eat and its not like i'm trying to eat 5,000 calories to bulk.

----------


## Spike85

In about 6 weeks im down 11 lbs of hard to lose fat. Ive been doing shitty diets and tons of cardio for a while now and could not get lower than 200 for the past 4 years. After 6 weeks i went from 207- 196 and counting down. I feel better than ever, no more iritibility after my cheat days, and I only gain about 3 lbs after carbing up. I have tons of energy and the diet is easy to follow. I have had some temptations for cookies or junk food but I never give in. My goal is to lose the next 6 lbs over 5 weeks. It will happen!!

Thanks for all the info, couldn't have done with without this thread.

----------


## edgarr

> im on the diet for awhile now. My weight is starting to fluctuate more on my carb up days. used to be around 4 pounds , now this week i gained 8 pounds on my carb up day. I dont let the scale bother me , its all about the mirror now. every week i evalutate my self in the mirror. Im finally starting to see that Vertical line down the center of my abbs. Im going to stick to it for another 3 months , OR till i reach 6% bodyfat. Which ever come first and then ill start my AAS. I cant wait for that!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Edgar , i suggest you give it some more time. Also , HeavyL's idea sounds great!!! , add a couple more days of ketosis before the carb up. Might help alot. 
> 
> 
> Chris


So I assume all the rules of carb up days wouuld still apply which means I will have to change my workouts, etc. Just need to figure out to sneak that in. Carb up over the weekends are much easier

----------


## Damienm05

Has anyone noticed that an excessive carb-load cancels out weight loss? My buddy said he ate nothing but junk for 2 days and a ton of cals and says he looks like he gained back several lbs. I told him it's probly just bloat from such a hard cheat but figured I'd check for him. He's been good until now, so who knows.

----------


## Machdiesel

Hey Guys I have been looking for an all in one drink for the Carb-up days that has maltodextrin/protein without any fructose and finally came across one today. The funny thing is my gym sells it and its been staring me in the face for months now. Its alil expensive but its a big load off my mind just going to the fridge and having a perfect pre-made drink to chug every friday. 

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/abb/massrecovery.html

----------


## edgarr

> Has anyone noticed that an excessive carb-load cancels out weight loss? My buddy said he ate nothing but junk for 2 days and a ton of cals and says he looks like he gained back several lbs. I told him it's probly just bloat from such a hard cheat but figured I'd check for him. He's been good until now, so who knows.


this is what is confusing. lots of people on hear claim that they gain back more weight then they lose on their carb ups, even if they are strict with the carb ups and dont eat junk and stuff. How can you lose weight when you lose 4 in 5 days and put back on 6 in two days? I know TOP has said it over and over that this diet is not about losing weight it is about losing fat, but for those that need to lose a lot of fat there is now way that can be done without also losing weight.

----------


## HeavyL

what do you think is going to happen if you eat junk for 2 days straight!!!!!, like Top says the carb up isn't a cheat day.. stay disciplined or your wasting your time

----------


## edgarr

> what do you think is going to happen if you eat junk for 2 days straight!!!!!, like Top says the carb up isn't a cheat day.. stay disciplined or your wasting your time


Maybe you misunderstood me. I am not eating junk. However if you read other post and I can tell you from my own experience that even eating good clean carbs on carb up days will let you put on more weight (maybe not BF) then you lost during the week. 

So my point is two fold.

1. I would think that in order to lose BF quickly one would also need to lose weight, maybe this applys more to those that are 15% or higher. I am no expert but sharing what I have experienced.

2. My body might not like fats therefore I am not losing weight. This is possible. I am down in BF % and yes I do look better but how much of that is due to the workouts and cardio?? I will never know unless I try another diet. I will stick this out for maybe 12 weeks (four more) and then compare a 40/40/20 diet for 12 weeks.

People like MG1228 and fireguy don't follow this diet, is that because they cut better with carbs???

----------


## baddgsx

> Hey Guys I have been looking for an all in one drink for the Carb-up days that has maltodextrin/protein without any fructose and finally came across one today. The funny thing is my gym sells it and its been staring me in the face for months now. Its alil expensive but its a big load off my mind just going to the fridge and having a perfect pre-made drink to chug every friday. 
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/abb/massrecovery.html


Nice!!!!! Thanx for this info. I'm going to order some today. You order from this site? I need a site that offers fast shipping to new England ct.

----------


## Machdiesel

Discount supps has it for cheaper, just click the banner at the top if the page.

----------


## edgarr

> Hey Guys I have been looking for an all in one drink for the Carb-up days that has maltodextrin/protein without any fructose and finally came across one today. The funny thing is my gym sells it and its been staring me in the face for months now. Its alil expensive but its a big load off my mind just going to the fridge and having a perfect pre-made drink to chug every friday. 
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/abb/massrecovery.html


my problem with drinking meals is I never feel full giving the ability to eat more. I good way to speed up the carb load is using fruit, milk, juice, bagels, etc. Those make feel feel fuller.

----------


## Machdiesel

The first 4 and last 4 meals should be liquid for the refeed, for the rest I use bagels,pasta and cereal

----------


## edgarr

> The first 4 and last 4 meals should be liquid for the refeed, for the rest I use bagels,pasta and cereal


So would you use the same drink as above for you last 4 meals or would drinking whey and oats be better?

This is where I think this is very debatable. Why spike your insulin levels that drastic, especially the last 4 meals. Wouldn't a slower digesting carb such as sweet potatos, brown rice, etc be better for those last 4 meals?

----------


## **TOP**

Hey guys sorry ive been MIA. I had to be somewhere for work for a week and then i came back and im trying to close on some real estate. Hopefully everything will be back to normal soon...TOP :Welcome:

----------


## energizer bunny

good to have you back mate!!

----------


## **TOP**

> my problem with drinking meals is I never feel full giving the ability to eat more. I good way to speed up the carb load is using fruit, milk, juice, bagels, etc. Those make feel feel fuller.


watch drinking juice and fruit its loaded with fructose and sucrose this tends to focus on refilling liver glycogen,not what we want!

----------


## **TOP**

> good to have you back mate!!


Thanks BUUUUUUUUUDY. Hows your diet coming?

----------


## **TOP**

> Half way through my 2nd week on the diet. Looking forward to the gym today. So far no strength loss on my Monday workout. I can already see that i am more vascular and i can see more definition in my abs. On my carb load days i have been taking allot of Metamucil as a part of the carb load to make sure i am regular and it is working well.


This is what i like to see! Sounds as if you are doing everything correct.

If its done correctly you will not lose any strength! I have actually watched a few guys get stronger as they have lost weight. all due to the 3 day carb load priming the body for ultimate utilization!

----------


## energizer bunny

well mate, i think i do better on fats than carbs.....i feel great during the week and sickly when i do the carb load lol......i dont weigh myself so i just go off the mirror and peoples coments...and both are good..

----------


## danielli

> Hey Guys I have been looking for an all in one drink for the Carb-up days that has maltodextrin/protein without any fructose and finally came across one today. The funny thing is my gym sells it and its been staring me in the face for months now. Its alil expensive but its a big load off my mind just going to the fridge and having a perfect pre-made drink to chug every friday. 
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/abb/massrecovery.html


How does it taste?

----------


## edgarr

> watch drinking juice and fruit its loaded with fructose and sucrose this tends to focus on refilling liver glycogen,not what we want!


I've been using these in the first few meals, mostly fruit, milk and bagels. Never in my last meals. Should I stop?

----------


## **TOP**

> i've been using these in the first few meals, mostly fruit, milk and bagels. Never in my last meals. Should i stop?


i would pull the fruit out,and also only use skim milk during carb load to avoid extra fat.

----------


## americanoak

So I found this:

"""

*Duration and Amount of Carb Load*
Arguably the two most critical aspects of a successful carb-load are the duration of the carb-load and the total amount of carbohydrates consumed during this time period. In brief, to achieve optimal glycogen levels, both the duration of the carb-load and the amount of carbs eaten must be correct. The rate limiting step in glycogen resynthesis appears to be activity of the enzymes involved in glycogen synthesis (1). Regardless of carbohydrate intake, there is a maximal amount of glycogen which can be synthesized in a given amount of time. That is to say, consuming all of your carbohydrates in a 4 hour time span, with the goal of returning to ketogenic eating that much sooner, will not work. Only when the proper amount of carbohydrates is consumed over a sufficient period of time, can glycogen compensation and/or supercompensation occur. Following exhaustive exercise and full glycogen depletion, glycogen can be resynthesized to 100% of normal levels (roughly 100-110 mmol/kg) within 24 hours as long as sufficient amounts of carbohydrate are consumed (1,2). Assuming full depletion of the involved muscles, the amount of carbohydrate needed during this time period is 8-10 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of lean body mass (8-10 g/kg). With 36 hours of carb-loading, roughly 150% compensation can occur, reaching levels of 150-160 mmol/kg of muscle glycogen. To achieve greater levels of muscle glycogen than this (175 mmol/kg or more) generally requires 3-4 days of high carbohydrate eating following exhaustive exercise (3). It should be noted that carb-loading has primarily been studies following endurance training, not weight training and there may be differences in how the body handles carbs following weight training. The first 6 hours after training appear to be the most critical as enzyme activity and resynthesis rates are the highest, around 12 mmol/kg/hour (4). Following weight training, with a carbohydrate intake of 1.5 grams carbohydrate/kg lean body mass taken immediately after training and again 2 hours later, a total of 44 mmol/kg can be resynthesized (4). Over the the first 24 hours, the average rate of glycogen resynthesis ranges from 5-12 mmol/kg/hour depending on the type of exercise performed (5). In general, aerobic exercise shows the lowest rate of glycogen resynthesis (2-8 mmol/kg/hour), weight training the second highest (1.3-11 mmol/kg/hour), and sprint training the highest (15 to 33.6 mmol/kg/hour). (5,6). The reason that glycogen resynthesis is lower after weight training than after sprint training may be related to the amount of lactic acid generated as well as the muscle damage that typically occurs during weight training (5). At an average rate of 5 mmol/kg /hour, approximately 120 mmol/kg of glycogen can be synthesized over 24 hours. This can be achieved with the consumption of 50 grams or more of carbohydrate every 2 hours during the first 24 hours after training. Intake of greater than 50 grams of carbohydrate does not appear to increase the rate of glycogen synthesis. Over 24 hours, at 50 grams per 2 hours, this yields 600 grams of carbohydrates total to maximize glycogen resynthesis. These values are for a 154 pound (70 kilogram) person. Significantly heavier or lighter individuals will need proportionally more or less carbohydrate. Simply keep the value of 8-10 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of lean body mass as a guide. In the second 24 hours, glycogen resynthesis rates decrease (1) and a carbohydrate intake of 5 grams/kg is recommended to further refill muscle glycogen stores while minimizing the chance of fat gain. *For many individuals, the small amount of additional glycogen resynthesis which occurs during the second 24 hours of carbohydrate loading is not worth the risk of regaining some of the bodyfat which was lost during the preceding week.*
"""

The last part is the most important part to me, because i am going to start this diet soon and am not sure if i should have just one or two carb up days. I read the bodypus book and I know it says from friday post workout till mid of sunday, but if i can get full supercompensation by midnight on saturday, why should i continue it on sunday?

If i wasnt going to continue it on sunday how would my diet look? Start the keto process on sunday and go untill friday workout then carbload?

----------


## **TOP**

> So I found this:
> 
> 
> If i wasnt going to continue it on sunday how would my diet look? Start the keto process on sunday and go untill friday workout then carbload?


Yes it would give you an additional day of keto although your strength may suffer...TOP

----------


## HeavyL

Alternatives to liquid carbs.. What would be the next best option for your first 4 and last 4 meals during carb up?

----------


## Damienm05

> Alternatives to liquid carbs.. What would be the next best option for your first 4 and last 4 meals during carb up?


white potatoes, rice, Italian bread, baguette, bagels would be pretty close.

----------


## HeavyL

thanks Damienm05, usually i ust count carbs for my carb up and don't care which ones they are. so your saying these high GI carbs should be after workout and right when finishing my carb up

----------


## edgarr

Week 9 update......weigh in upon awaking up...up 3 lbs!! Back to 180lbs. No cheat meals all week. Ate same thing everyday same workouts and cardio and even added clen on Wed. Tonight I start the carb load.

----------


## energizer bunny

> Week 9 update......weigh in upon awaking up...up 3 lbs!! Back to 180lbs. No cheat meals all week. Ate same thing everyday same workouts and cardio and even added clen on Wed. Tonight I start the carb load.


did you measure bodyfat?.......are you looking better?

----------


## edgarr

> did you measure bodyfat?.......are you looking better?


I measured 4 weeks ago, will try to do again soon................look better??? Yes, for some reason this week I look bloated thou, I look better then I did 10 weeks ago before diet and working out but how much of that is due to the workout and how much due to the diet???? I hear of people not even working out losing lbs and lbs.

Oh, for what its worth, I pissed on a keto stick yesterday and according to that I'm in ketosis, besides I feel the normal effects of being in Ketosis.

----------


## sixxer

I thought <100g of carbs a day would result in ketosis. Why restrict them to <30g?

----------


## baddgsx

Has anyone tried bulking on this diet by adding 500 more calories than your tdee? Im contiplating on what my bulking diet will be. 


Thanks, 

Chris

----------


## gbrice75

> Has anyone tried bulking on this diet by adding 500 more calories than your tdee? Im contiplating on what my bulking diet will be. 
> 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Chris


I thought about doing it in the near future, but IMO carbs become alot more crucial when it comes to bulking. I am going to run another 40/40/20 diet but with surplus calories/day in hopes of putting on lean mass. I will be keeping the diet super clean to hopefully minimize bodyfat gains.

----------


## edgarr

> Has anyone tried bulking on this diet by adding 500 more calories than your tdee? Im contiplating on what my bulking diet will be. 
> 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Chris


Based on my results, I think that if I ate at TDEE or higher I would bulk like crazy!!

----------


## **TOP**

> Based on my results, I think that if I ate at TDEE or higher I would bulk like crazy!!


Its been done and has worked for many. It helps you bulk while limiting bodyfat gain.

----------


## edgarr

^^^ problem is I am trying to cut!

So would it be a good idea to have a couple pieces of fruit before my workout tonight which then I start carb loading right after? Should I skip the post workout LIT cardio and just have my first liquid carb load meal?

----------


## **TOP**

> ^^^ problem is I am trying to cut!
> 
> So would it be a good idea to have a couple pieces of fruit before my workout tonight which then I start carb loading right after? Should I skip the post workout LIT cardio and just have my first liquid carb load meal?


Have the fruit and its up to you for the cardio.

----------


## energizer bunny

i have a banana and snickers bar before my training tonight....well in a few hours...get in!!!!

----------


## gbrice75

> i have a banana and snickers bar before my training tonight....well in a few hours...get in!!!!


^^ OMG a Snickers bar!!! Bad boy!!! That sounds GREAT - I just want some M&M's but haven't gone off the deep end THAT much yet.

----------


## energizer bunny

> ^^ OMG a Snickers bar!!! Bad boy!!! That sounds GREAT - I just want some M&M's but haven't gone off the deep end THAT much yet.


LOL.....there is a reason for this, but i cant remember exactly, maybe TOP can chime in?

----------


## energizer bunny

banana and snickers are fully loaded with fructose and sucrose which will kick me out of ketosis and let me drain liver glycogen further before my workout....

----------


## edgarr

> banana and snickers are fully loaded with fructose and sucrose which will kick me out of ketosis and let me drain liver glycogen further before my workout....


do you replace one of your normal Keto meals with this? Normally I eat a pro/fat meal about an hour before work out. Should I inculde the snicker and fruit or replace it with it?

----------


## energizer bunny

> do you replace one of your normal Keto meals with this? Normally I eat a pro/fat meal about an hour before work out. Should I inculde the snicker and fruit or replace it with it?


best off waiting for TOP.............but i normally have my keto meal earlier, today i had cod, then an hour-45 mins before training i have the snicker and banana.......today i fuked up and eat far to close, like 20 mins before and i felt ill all through my session! lol

----------


## HeavyL

just eat some fruit 30 minutes before your lift..

----------


## **TOP**

> banana and snickers are fully loaded with fructose and sucrose which will kick me out of ketosis and let me drain liver glycogen further before my workout....


bingo!!! Although its not a snickers bar its the snickers marathon bar because its loaded with sucrose and fructose.

----------


## energizer bunny

> bingo!!! Although its not a snickers bar its the snickers marathon bar because its loaded with sucrose and fructose.


i might sound stupid here...BUT what do you mean TOP, do class the snicker and the bannana as a marathon bar or is there a bar in the US called snickers marathon.....i know years ago a snickers was called a marathon :What?:  :Shrug:

----------


## energizer bunny

^^^^^^ ahhh there is a bar called snickers marathon, they are not sold in the UK,wey ive never seen them..

----------


## **TOP**

Sorry eb sometimes i forget you guys are not local,yes there is a bar called a marathon bar and its formulated specifically for glycogen loading.


http://www.snickersmarathon.com/

----------


## B1gDaddy

alright here goes nothin. this is what i figured out so far

3095 TDEE
181 LBM
724 protien cals
181g (LBM)of protien a day 724(27%) cals from prot
2595 consumed cals total in a day** ( minusing the 500 cal defic for fat loss)
207grams of fat a day 1871(69%) cals 
20 carbs (3%) 80 cals

Cals are too high so moved grams of fat down to 172 g so this is what i made it to to make it work..

Prot 181g 30.5% 725 cals
fat 172g 65.3% 1550 CALS
carbs 25 4.2% 100 cals

so now its 30/65/5 basicly

Look alright to you TOP? I'll be putting together a diet as best as i can hopefully, i might use one of the diets posted on this thread as my example to work off of an make my own daily diet up..

And what shud ur macros look like on carb load days? typically high fat high carbs an prot? :s Or low fat an carbs an prot high, but its kidna hard to find food with high prot an high carbs but low on fat

----------


## HeavyL

carb up is low low fat, high carbs and moderate protein

----------


## B1gDaddy

> carb up is low low fat, high carbs and moderate protein


kk thanks

----------


## B1gDaddy

Is it normal to feel dizzy at times and really exhausted at the beginning stages of keto? i just about passed out after i got up after sitting for about an hour reading the forum an thats never happened before. I started keto yesterday basically so im about 2 days in. im not sure on the nutrition facts but is it ok to have a energy drink like NOS or monster, redbull etc?

----------


## danielli

> Is it normal to feel dizzy at times and really exhausted at the beginning stages of keto? i just about passed out after i got up after sitting for about an hour reading the forum an thats never happened before. I started keto yesterday basically so im about 2 days in. im not sure on the nutrition facts but is it ok to have a energy drink like NOS or monster, redbull etc?


pretty sure the drinks are ok as long as you watch the carbs in them.

----------


## Failure

Feeling tired is normal. Sometimes dizzy is as well. I don't think your body is used to using fat as an energy source yet. 

It isn't hard to find food that are high pro and high carb if you look for them separately. Bagel and chicken breast. Sweet potato and London Broil(leaner of the red meats). Even low fat meals in restaraunts may work for you. Easier to find palatable food on off days than on days.

----------


## B1gDaddy

^ Chicken breast doesnt have carbs lol. See for urself 

http://dailyburn.com/nutrition/food_search

----------


## Epic Ed

Well, I threw my hat into the ring as of yesterday. I've done similar keytogenic diets in the past with some good success and it's time to get disciplined with my diet again and lose some weight.

A few stats:

Age: 42
Weight: 239 lbs
Height: 5'10"
TDEE = 3344
BRM = 2158

No idea what my body fat comp is, but I'm guessing between 25%-30%. Pitiful, I know. I'm struggling a bit with adding more healthy fats to balance out my ratios. I have plenty of protein (too much, according to TOP) and I'm looking for options.

So far, I'm eating:

- Protein powder/water shake pre-workout (35gm of Protein)

- 6 egg whites/3 yolks; chopped green peppers; 2 slices of ham - post workout

- 2 hard boiled eggs, palm full of walnuts; 3 green pepper strips - "breakfast" at work.

- (1) chicken breast, palm full of walnuts - lunch

- Tuna mix - real mayo and chopped celery - afternoon snack

- (1) chicken breast, steamed broccoli - dinner

- protein powder shake before bed.


Unfortunately, I have no idea what my ratios are or my calories count based on these portions. I've never counted calories and really don't know where to start -- not sure I want to. But, based on just the info listed, does it look like I need to add more fat to the plan?

----------


## energizer bunny

> ^ Chicken breast doesnt have carbs lol. See for urself 
> 
> http://dailyburn.com/nutrition/food_search


hes not refering to the chicken breast as having carbs mate, hes pointing out a good pro/carb meal...i.e chicken and bagel, sweet potatoe and staek..

----------


## B1gDaddy

> hes not refering to the chicken breast as having carbs mate, hes pointing out a good pro/carb meal...i.e chicken and bagel, sweet potatoe and staek..


Ah alright. My mistake

----------


## **TOP**

So im doing a keto diet for a guy here locally and amazingly he was able to establish ketosis in 2 days with a blood sugar level around 62 and still feeling fine. I was wondering if anyone else had been checking their blood sugar?
Mine is usually around 80 in ketosis and during carb load.

Im just taking a pole to get a better study.Post em if you can...TOP

----------


## energizer bunny

62 what TOP?.......what are the units?........

----------


## **TOP**

> 62 what TOP?.......what are the units?........


What do you mean what do i mean? Im saying his blood sugar was tested using a diabetic sugar tester and it came back 62.


 :Hmmmm:

----------


## energizer bunny

LOL......well ive got a diabetic sugar tester but the readings are from 0-20mmol/L roughly......is this the thing that you prick your thumb, drop blood onto a stick, then into the little accu measure machine?

----------


## HeavyL

Any progress reports here. Im wondering about some of the success you guys are having on this diet. I would love to see some results posted. Ill post mine up in about 4 more weeks when Im going to be checking my results

----------


## energizer bunny

well i feel and look better on the CKD......ive been off the CKD this week tho......back on from monday........ill not be taking results till week 12.

----------


## Epic Ed

It's early for me, but I'm down 6 lbs since Monday. I'm sure most of that is due to running a calorie deficit compared to what I usually consume (I'm probably just getting into ketosis today), but as usual, as long as I have my meals lined up to eat every 2-3 hours I do not get hungry. My energy level this morning was pretty low, but I did fine the first three mornings at the gym. Today was cardio, only, and I was happy that's all I had to do. Since I have a LOT of weight to lose and am less concerned about retaining muscle mass, I'm doing this through Saturday and will do a light carb up on Sunday with good carbs, then back on it for another week.

----------


## **TOP**

> It's early for me, but I'm down 6 lbs since Monday. I'm sure most of that is due to running a calorie deficit compared to what I usually consume (I'm probably just getting into ketosis today), but as usual, as long as I have my meals lined up to eat every 2-3 hours I do not get hungry. My energy level this morning was pretty low, but I did fine the first three mornings at the gym. Today was cardio, only, and I was happy that's all I had to do. Since I have a LOT of weight to lose and am less concerned about retaining muscle mass, I'm doing this through Saturday and will do a light carb up on Sunday with good carbs, then back on it for another week.


Sounds good ed! :Welcome:

----------


## edgarr

Good Bye CKD

Well I really quit last week but I took this whole week off. Funny things is, I didn't put on any weight, I weigh exactly what I did after week 1 of CKD...180 and this week I ate EVERYTHING. White carbs, candy, booze you name it. I did my am cardio but that's it, no weights. 

So Monday I start a 40/40/20 diet and will run that for 10 weeks to compare.

Good luck everyone!

----------


## HeavyL

thats too bad about your success with CKD, keep us posted on your other diet

----------


## Bren

Just finished my 4th on CKD and according to the scale I am only down 5lbs, but my abdominal and waist measurements are both down about an inch each and my arms are measuring 1/8thinch bigger.Starting Monday I will be doing 45min of cardio every other day and on my non-lifting days I will be lowering my calories by 300 under my TDEE so I can really get my fat loss going.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

While I am consistently an anti-ketogenic advocate. I cant help but notice the buzz the CKD is getting. So I am doing a 2 week experiment with it. I just started Tuesday and am following the guidelines and here are my results thus far. Since tuesday I have lost 2 lbs of fat. I check my body fat every morning. While I find this to be a positive - here are the negatives.

Absolutely no energy.
Loss of strength.
Consistently hungry through out the day/Hunger pangs.
Lethargic.
Difficulty with concentration.

I did my full body workout today and it was agony. Im waiting until Monday evening to start my refeed and hopefully I will feel better after that. 

To be fair: I did come down with a mild cold, so I cannot directly blame this diet just yet. Ill let you know how I feel next week. Now how are you supposed to come off of a diet like this? How do I reintroduce carbs?

----------


## RoadToRecovery

Bump

----------


## **TOP**

> While I am consistently an anti-ketogenic advocate. I cant help but notice the buzz the CKD is getting. So I am doing a 2 week experiment with it. I just started Tuesday and am following the guidelines and here are my results thus far. Since tuesday I have lost 2 lbs of fat. I check my body fat every morning. While I find this to be a positive - here are the negatives.
> 
> Absolutely no energy.
> Loss of strength.
> Consistently hungry through out the day/Hunger pangs.
> Lethargic.
> Difficulty with concentration.
> 
> I did my full body workout today and it was agony. Im waiting until Monday evening to start my refeed and hopefully I will feel better after that. 
> ...


Only allowing for 2 weeks will only make you hate life! This is usually the amount of time it takes for the body to shit to a fat burning metabolism. The first few weeks you may feel like you have the flu because your body isnt used to the conditions,so dont be suprised if you come away still hating ckd. Its not a magic bullet. 

Why would you do any diet study for 2 weeks? If i were to say im gonna do a 40/40/20 for 2 weeks and see if i lose loads of fat people would call me crazy...Just my opinion..TOP

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> Only allowing for 2 weeks will only make you hate life! This is usually the amount of time it takes for the body to shit to a fat burning metabolism. The first few weeks you may feel like you have the flu because your body isnt used to the conditions,so dont be suprised if you come away still hating ckd. Its not a magic bullet. 
> 
> Why would you do any diet study for 2 weeks? If i were to say im gonna do a 40/40/20 for 2 weeks and see if i lose loads of fat people would call me crazy...Just my opinion..TOP


I never said that I planned on losing loads of fat, and I also never established what my experiment was about. According to the original post, there are many positive effects with this diet so upon achieving ketosis I would assume that I would experience these effects. Are you claiming that it takes 2 weeks to achieve ketosis?

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> How do I reintroduce carbs?


What do you recommend?

----------


## Bren

> While I am consistently an anti-ketogenic advocate. I cant help but notice the buzz the CKD is getting. So I am doing a 2 week experiment with it. I just started Tuesday and am following the guidelines and here are my results thus far. Since tuesday I have lost 2 lbs of fat. I check my body fat every morning. While I find this to be a positive - here are the negatives.
> 
> Absolutely no energy.
> Loss of strength.
> Consistently hungry through out the day/Hunger pangs.
> Lethargic.
> Difficulty with concentration.
> 
> I did my full body workout today and it was agony. Im waiting until Monday evening to start my refeed and hopefully I will feel better after that. 
> ...


I never felt any of these.

Absolutely no energy.
Loss of strength.
Consistently hungry through out the day/Hunger pangs.
Lethargic.
Difficulty with concentration.


Also my fat loss didn't really kick off until the 4th week.
I love this diet and I am making gains on it.

----------


## Bren

> What do you recommend?


You only did it for 2 weeks. Just start eating like normal again.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> I never felt any of these.
> 
> Absolutely no energy.
> Loss of strength.
> Consistently hungry through out the day/Hunger pangs.
> Lethargic.
> Difficulty with concentration.
> 
> 
> ...


Well clearly your not eating with a deficit. You cant make gains if your not eating for it. If I was eating for a gain that would be a completely different story.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> You only did it for 2 weeks. Just start eating like normal again.


Ok hypothetically speaking, if i continued for 8 weeks, how would I reintroduce carbs.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

Bump

----------


## edgarr

> Ok hypothetically speaking, if i continued for 8 weeks, how would I reintroduce carbs.


I splurged for a week eating all kinds of carbs. Didn't put a pound on that week

----------


## BigTMan123

I didn't see if this had been asked yet:

Is it alright to take ECA for extra energy and fat burning?

----------


## D7M

> Ok hypothetically speaking, if i continued for 8 weeks, how would I reintroduce carbs.


I would personally start by re-introducing carbs around your training: 

pre and post wo. 

Actually your two meals pwo (pwo and ppwo) could be carbs, depending on your sensitivity, and the amount of carbs you take in. 

See how that goes, then start adding some oats to meal 1. the rest of your meals are pro/fat, and carbs around training. 

That's what I would do....

----------


## Bren

Half way through my 5th week now, and wow, I am burning some freaking fat! Not losing much strength except for my Friday workouts, but my Monday workouts I am gaining strength and a little size.
I am zig-zaging with my calories. I eat More calories on my workout days and go on a big deficit on my off/cardio days.
I also take caffeine and aspirin for energy on Wednesday and Friday workouts.

----------


## D7M

^how much of deficit are you doing on non-training days? 

how much of a difference is that from your training days?

----------


## RoadToRecovery

How do you know its all coming from fat? Are you taking your body comp measurements weekly?

----------


## BigTMan123

So, I don't know if I screwed up or not. I had about a cup of green beans last night with my talapia. Will the 1g or so of natural sugar screw my diet up? Take me out of ketosis?

I was reading another post and until then had no idea green beans had sugar in them.

Also had about half cup for my 1:00 meal today ...

This is my 3rd week of CKD.
*
Also, still waiting on response for my question on ECA stack on previous page ...*

----------


## edgarr

> So, I don't know if I screwed up or not. I had about a cup of green beans last night with my talapia. Will the 1g or so of natural sugar screw my diet up? Take me out of ketosis? *No*
> I was reading another post and until then had no idea green beans had sugar in them.
> 
> Also had about half cup for my 1:00 meal today ...
> 
> This is my 3rd week of CKD.
> *
> Also, still waiting on response for my question on ECA stack on previous page ...*


 *ECA will be fine but then you can't properly judge the diet*

----------


## D7M

> So, I don't know if I screwed up or not. I had about a cup of green beans last night with my talapia. Will the 1g or so of natural sugar screw my diet up? Take me out of ketosis?
> 
> I was reading another post and until then had no idea green beans had sugar in them.
> 
> Also had about half cup for my 1:00 meal today ...
> 
> This is my 3rd week of CKD.
> *
> Also, still waiting on response for my question on ECA stack on previous page ...*


veggies are fine in my book on a keto. 

Some people don't. But I eat a TON of veggies on a keto and still loose nicely. 

And no, veggies won't "kick you out of ketosis". 

Besides, who says you have to stay in ketosis 24/7 to loose?

----------


## BigTMan123

> veggies are fine in my book on a keto. 
> 
> Some people don't. But I eat a TON of veggies on a keto and still loose nicely. 
> 
> And no, veggies won't "kick you out of ketosis". 
> 
> Besides, who says you have to stay in ketosis 24/7 to loose?


I definitely get my veggies on the diet. Mostly in the form of raw spinach.

I was just wondering because I read in another post (and looked on nutritiondata.com) that green beans had 1g sugar per cup.

I didn't know if that would be detrimental to the diet or not.

I am trying to be as strict and dedicated as possible.

Just as an FYI for others - I ran "Dave's" Keto Diet last year and dropped 50 lbs.

Now, this CKD looks promising (because of the carb load) to help me rid most of my remaining.

3 weeks in and I'm down 7lbs.

----------


## Bren

> ^how much of deficit are you doing on non-training days? 
> 
> how much of a difference is that from your training days?


From 600-1000, depending on the workout. I do less of a deficit on my heavy leg days and my full body days.

----------


## Bren

> How do you know its all coming from fat? Are you taking your body comp measurements weekly?


I know it is all from fat because I am not losing strength and I Drink 1-1 1/2 gallons of water a day. So I know that it is not from water, and if it was from muscle, than I would be losing noticeable strength for sure. 
On Mondays I rotate, one week legs, the next week, upper body & core, Etc.. and my strength is getting better.

----------


## HeavyL

alot of the initial weight loss is from water this is a fact. drinking more water doesn't mean you won't loose water weight!!! this is what this diet does carbs hold water thus no carbs, you don't hold water

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> I know it is all from fat because I am not losing strength and I Drink 1-1 1/2 gallons of water a day. So I know that it is not from water, and if it was from muscle, than I would be losing noticeable strength for sure. 
> On Mondays I rotate, one week legs, the next week, upper body & core, Etc.. and my strength is getting better.


That is not a way of determining fat loss.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> alot of the initial weight loss is from water this is a fact. drinking more water doesn't mean you won't loose water weight!!! this is what this diet does carbs hold water thus no carbs, you don't hold water


Carbs hold water? Can you tell me which part of your body is a carb?

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> From 600-1000, depending on the workout. I do less of a deficit on my heavy leg days and my full body days.


1 of 3 things is happening here. 

1. You are new to working out or you are coming off of a long break. So while you may be gaining strength you are still sacrificing mucle.
2. You are on AAS.
3. You are lying. A 1000 calorie deficit is an indication that you are losing muscle. 

You need to measure your body composition and keep track because you might be doing more harm then good.

----------


## edgarr

> 1 of 3 things is happening here. 
> 
> 1. You are new to working out or you are coming off of a long break. So while you may be gaining strength you are still sacrificing mucle.
> 2. You are on AAS.
> 3. You are lying. A 1000 calorie deficit is an indication that you are losing muscle. 
> 
> You need to measure your body composition and keep track because you might be doing more harm then good.


Agreed! 1000 cal deficit, carbs or no carbs and your losing muscle and strength.

----------


## Damienm05

> Carbs hold water? Can you tell me which part of your body is a carb?


Starchy carbohydrates heavily increase water retention. Especially when our bodies have been deprived of them for some time. 

When I was carb-cycling, I'd notice a several lb. spike in body weight following my very high carb day as well as moon-face. My weight would always be back to normal following the two low carb days. Water/sodium/protein intake were consistent.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

Your muscles are what hold water along with your skin, fat cells etc. The only thing remotely close to a carb in your body composition is muscle glycogen. Doesnt matter what diet you are eating. CKD or not. You can still retain water with out eating a carbohydrate. Just ask any female on an atkins diet during their menstrual cycle.

----------


## JoeSmoe

I would suggest this diet to anyone with hypoglycemia or borderline diabetes. 

I do not have any scientific evidence to back up my theory but It was nearly impossible for me to lose weight on a low fat diet. Now im doing as close to 0 carbs as I can get (carb or 2 in some seasonings and sauces) 6 days a week and the weight is coming off like clockwork. I think it is because it stabilizes my blood sugar and since my body produces to much insulin and insulin causes your body to store fat and makes you hungry I get a double whammy benefit from it.

I feel fine on this diet too. I'm actually less hungry than doing low fat and feel full on 2k calories a day. The only problem I have is after I do anything strenuous like a heavy set or even geting out of the hot tub lol I get that feeling like I better sit down or ill be laying out on the floor feeling lol. As for normal life tho I feel fine even doing cardio.

----------


## Damienm05

> Your muscles are what hold water along with your skin, fat cells etc. The only thing remotely close to a carb in your body composition is muscle glycogen. Doesnt matter what diet you are eating. CKD or not. You can still retain water with out eating a carbohydrate. Just ask any female on an atkins diet during their menstrual cycle.


x2. Simply saying a high starchy carbohydrate intake is a major contributor.

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> x2. Simply saying a high starchy carbohydrate intake is a major contributor.


The reason why water retention is high after a carb heavy meal is once it is broken down it is turned into metabolic water. Its not necessarily holding water, its that it creates it.

----------


## JoeSmoe

Does everyone go insane on carb loads? 

I'm just asking because I only go between 100 to 300 on carbs day and I feel fine for the week and lose about 10lbs a month.

I'm just asking because I think I saw something about 16xLBM and that is about 14x more than I eat lol. I thought carb loads were just there to give you energy for the week? I feel fine through the week so I don't think im doing anything wrong.

----------


## Bren

> 1 of 3 things is happening here. 
> 
> 1. You are new to working out or you are coming off of a long break. So while you may be gaining strength you are still sacrificing mucle.
> 2. You are on AAS.
> 3. You are lying. A 1000 calorie deficit is an indication that you are losing muscle. 
> 
> You need to measure your body composition and keep track because you might be doing more harm then good.



Any way Going down form a workout day of 4000-5000 calories to an off day of 3000-4000 calories Is not that bad. It is sometimes 1000 calories differance but still is only 300-600 under my TDEE

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> Any way Going down form a workout day of 4000-5000 calories to an off day of 3000-4000 calories Is not that bad. It is sometimes 1000 calories differance but still is only 300-600 under my TDEE


If you are eating 4000 calories on your off day, that is in no way a deficit. And Why would you even be eating 5000 calories in the first place. You need to do a little bit of research in dieting in general. Thats just ridiculous.

----------


## D7M

> Any way Going down form a workout day of 4000-5000 calories to an off day of 3000-4000 calories Is not that bad. It is sometimes 1000 calories differance but still is only 300-600 under my TDEE


first of all it's a big difference between 4k and 5k cals a day...so which is it? 

Second, you're on a keto diet and at 5k cals? 

How? what does your diet look like?

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> first of all it's a big difference between 4k and 5k cals a day...so which is it? 
> 
> Second, you're on a keto diet and at 5k cals? 
> 
> How? what does your diet look like?


I didnt even give that thought. I think my #3 choice seems to be it. 1000 calorie difference is almost 2 times the amount of a days worth of protein for 150lbs LBM

----------


## RoadToRecovery

> Any way Going down form a workout day of 4000-5000 calories to an off day of 3000-4000 calories Is not that bad. It is sometimes 1000 calories differance but still is only 300-600 under my TDEE


And Your Tdee is not 4000-5000 calories my friend. Unless you are a professional athlete.

----------


## Epic Ed

Quick progress report. I increased my carbs a bit from the first week but still remained in light ketosis and running a calorie deficit. Dropped another 3 lbs for a total of 9 in two weeks. 

Incidentally, yesterday was a cheat day. After the kids did their Easter egg hunt I popped a couple of handfuls of jelly beans in my gob. HOLY SHIT!! What a MISTAKE! I nearly passed out from the sudden sugar infusion and felt like shit for several hours. All I wanted to do was take a nap. Amazing how much of a difference a couple of weeks on a different diet makes. I never want to feel like that again.

----------


## baddgsx

Heres a pic of my weight loss graph. Im 2 solid months into the CKD and i havent looked better in my whole life. And im not on AAS which is weird for me. Usually i look better on AAS. As you can see in my graph the past week and half have been a struggle to loose. I did not cheat at all but i think my body is in some sort of adjustment phase for round 2 (2nd month) No worries , im just going to continue on doing it until one of two things happen. 1.) i get to 6 percent. or 2.) my rest time from AAS is up and i can begin my next cycle of dbol /test/deca on a 40/40/20 diet w/ and increased calorie intake 500 above TDEE. 

Honestly , i cannot wait to do try AAS while being this cut. 

Top , if it wasnt for you i wouldnt look as good as i do now.  :BbAily:  
Seriously though, thanks for the knowledge!



Chris ,

----------


## edgarr

> Heres a pic of my weight loss graph. Im 2 solid months into the CKD and i havent looked better in my whole life. And im not on AAS which is weird for me. Usually i look better on AAS. As you can see in my graph the past week and half have been a struggle to loose. I did not cheat at all but i think my body is in some sort of adjustment phase for round 2 (2nd month) No worries , im just going to continue on doing it until one of two things happen. 1.) i get to 6 percent. or 2.) my rest time from AAS is up and i can begin my next cycle of dbol /test/deca on a 40/40/20 diet w/ and increased calorie intake 500 above TDEE. 
> 
> Honestly , i cannot wait to do try AAS while being this cut. 
> 
> Top , if it wasnt for you i wouldnt look as good as i do now.  
> Seriously though, thanks for the knowledge!
> 
> 
> 
> Chris ,


Did you also track your BF%? Just wondering how much of that weight loss was muscle vs fat.

----------


## baddgsx

> Did you also track your BF%? Just wondering how much of that weight loss was muscle vs fat.


I did not track BF% , i believe that alittle muscle loss will be evident with any calorie difficient diet. I look bigger and better at 182 lbs than i did at 208. Everyone else at my gym agrees also.

----------


## edgarr

> I did not track BF% , i believe that alittle muscle loss will be evident with any calorie difficient diet. I look bigger and better at 182 lbs than i did at 208. Everyone else at my gym agrees also.


Yes agreed you will lose muscle but I would be curious to how much.

Also and this is my own experience, introducing carbs back in is not that easy. I wish someone would have showed me the way. I just ate carbs again and the first week I ate all kinds and lots of them but I didn't gain a pound. I felt like shit, was weak and no motivation. I guess my body wasn't use t carbs as an energy source and was rejecting them  :Hmmmm:  If I had to do it over I would ramp the fat down and the carbs up over a two week period. I feel much better now and this week I lost 5 lbs on not so strict 40/40/20

If you start AAS right away that might help with the sides I had .

----------


## BigTMan123

Bringing this thread back to life to post my results so far!

Started CKD 3/15/10 weighing 213 lbs
Weighed today and I'm at 199 lbs!

I haven't been below 200 in like 7 years! I have used different variations of a Keto diet to lose a total of 66 lbs over the past year and a half.

Going to continue this CKD for another 6 weeks and I should be pretty satisfied with myself by then ...

Just a side note as well - I have not seen ANY, I repeat, ANY losses in the lifting department ... although I have not made much gains (I have increased each exercise by like 10lbs or so). But making huge gains is not my goal ... yet  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## baddgsx

sup guys , 

i went on the 40/40/20 for about a while after doing the carb keto previously with good results. Now im going back on the CKD with AAS. I know ive read that its not good but i want to see for myself. im one month into my gear test/deca and just started mon. on the ckd. 

Chris

----------


## danielli

> sup guys , 
> 
> i went on the 40/40/20 for about a while after doing the carb keto previously with good results. Now im going back on the CKD with AAS. I know ive read that its not good but i want to see for myself. im one month into my gear test/deca and just started mon. on the ckd. 
> 
> Chris


keep us posted. Do you have a separate thread logging your progress?

----------


## baddgsx

no , if ya guys dont mind ill write everything here and post pics here again. I like everyone in this thread. 

i have decent experience with aas. not sure if i get the best gear because ive yet to try gear that says QV on it. I try to maximise effects by not drinking achohol and keeping to a strict clorie diet. 

my cycle now consists of dbol 1-4weeks ,600mg test a week for 1-14 weeks and 600mg deca a week for 1-12weeks. 

right now im 188.00 at about 12-14 percent bodyfat. 5'9" 

Chris

----------


## truckin35

Hey there Top, fairly new to the site. Been lifting pretty hard and heavy for about a year, having trouble shredding off some body fat. A buddy of mine told me about this diet, so I have been reading these post, and was wondering where I can get this book you were talking about. Thanks Alot

----------


## edgarr

Anyone still on this diet? I went off it and to a 40/40/20 and lost the weight I wanted to lose. Now that I did that I am thinking about going back on this to see if I can gain some muscle

----------


## yannick35

Sad that this diet sort of died out, he is so good, i used it from 1996 until 2002.

Might give it another run for its money soon

----------


## baddgsx

how many grams of protein in 93-7 lean beef? im using 8 grams. does that seem right or high?

----------


## **TOP**

> Hey there Top, fairly new to the site. Been lifting pretty hard and heavy for about a year, having trouble shredding off some body fat. A buddy of mine told me about this diet, so I have been reading these post, and was wondering where I can get this book you were talking about. Thanks Alot


Pm me your email and ill send a pdf to you.

----------


## **TOP**

> no , if ya guys dont mind ill write everything here and post pics here again. I like everyone in this thread. 
> 
> i have decent experience with aas. not sure if i get the best gear because ive yet to try gear that says QV on it. I try to maximise effects by not drinking achohol and keeping to a strict clorie diet. 
> 
> my cycle now consists of dbol 1-4weeks ,600mg test a week for 1-14 weeks and 600mg deca a week for 1-12weeks. 
> 
> right now im 188.00 at about 12-14 percent bodyfat. 5'9" 
> 
> Chris


If you are doing test-E have you thought about putting the dbol in at the 4th week while you are completly anabolic as the strength gains arrive?? If yiou think about it,it makes way more sense than just doing it out the gate!

----------


## baddgsx

> If you are doing test-E have you thought about putting the dbol in at the 4th week while you are completly anabolic as the strength gains arrive?? If yiou think about it,it makes way more sense than just doing it out the gate!


I'll try that next time. Im already in week 6. It does make sense though.

----------


## EternalStud

god what a great diet this is. Im already carb sensitive when it comes to bulking and gain way too much fat and feel like shit when i have alot, so doing this I felt SOOOOOO great and energetic even when cutting and it took my body to a whole new level. Too bad I just recently found this, I and many others could have looked and felt a lot better if we knew about this when we first started bodybuilding. Thanks for awesome article TOP!!!

----------


## flexerguy

i can't find malto dextrin in any supplement/vitamin or bbing shop. What can i use instead?

----------


## Damienm05

> i can't find malto dextrin in any supplement/vitamin or bbing shop. What can i use instead?


Parsnips, baguette, italian bread, white rice, bagels: low-fat, high GI carbs.

----------


## flexerguy

yah but the diet says liquid carbs for the first recarb meals no? Does one get 30% protein for each day of the carb reload? I know it is 30% protein is consumed but 30% of what the carbs? or total calories? and how much would that be since the carbs constitute way more than the daily kcal alloted. how much fat does the rest consitute?

16 g of Carbs per lean Body Weight in Kg (eg 51.5 kg) 825 (Carbs g) 3299 (kcal)
Protein ??
Fat ??

----------


## smalltime7

wow thanks for putting this back up !! great read I have to get one of the books I HAVE A GOAL to catch!

----------


## Damienm05

> yah but the diet says liquid carbs for the first recarb meals no? Does one get 30% protein for each day of the carb reload? I know it is 30% protein is consumed but 30% of what the carbs? or total calories? and how much would that be since the carbs constitute way more than the daily kcal alloted. how much fat does the rest consitute?
> 
> 16 g of Carbs per lean Body Weight in Kg (eg 51.5 kg) 825 (Carbs g) 3299 (kcal)
> Protein ??
> Fat ??


I think people follow these CKD diets too strictly. If the goal is simply to maintain as much muscle as possible while quickly losing fat - just stick to the basics man.

5-6 keto days: 35/65 pro/fat
1-2 carb days: moderate pro/high carb/low fat - I think shooting for 16g per kg of lbm is a recipe for disaster. It will come down to trial and error. Start with 500g or so and see how that goes. 
Think about it, 500g of carbs is 2000 calories. Add in the standard 200g pro and inherent 40g of fat that will be in your meat/carbs and you're looking at 3160 cals for the day. I dunno about you but that's beyond most people's tdee and that's at 6g per kg of an average man's lbm. I'm not saying that the diet doesn't work as instructed but simply saying that you should start slow.

----------


## flexerguy

SEE ABOVE to my post in regards to these following comments


Ok well I am a small guy here 5'2 and 135 lbs....maintence is 2025 kcal and am cutting by 500 kcal for keto part.....for carb upload i just halfed the 16 g carb to 8

so total of 1649 kcal for the carbs and did 1.25 g x my weight of 135 = 169g or 675 kcal.....which totals 2324kcal .....then stage 2 i halfed everything so carbs be about 932 kcal and i presume i add the same amount of protein

this i spread out via the 2 days ..

what do you think about that???

----------


## Damienm05

> what do you think about that???


That works.

----------


## baddgsx

I bought a bag of actual flax seeds , not the oil. why does the actual seeds have carbs and the oil doesnt? enough of the seeds and it will kick me outta ketosis right? 

anyone use the seeds?

thanks Chris

----------


## baddgsx

> I think people follow these CKD diets too strictly. If the goal is simply to maintain as much muscle as possible while quickly losing fat - just stick to the basics man.
> 
> 5-6 keto days: 35/65 pro/fat
> 1-2 carb days: moderate pro/high carb/low fat - I think shooting for 16g per kg of lbm is a recipe for disaster. It will come down to trial and error. Start with 500g or so and see how that goes. 
> Think about it, 500g of carbs is 2000 calories. Add in the standard 200g pro and inherent 40g of fat that will be in your meat/carbs and you're looking at 3160 cals for the day. I dunno about you but that's beyond most people's tdee and that's at 6g per kg of an average man's lbm. I'm not saying that the diet doesn't work as instructed but simply saying that you should start slow.


I agree ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1

----------


## oker

Top, PM'd you in regard to getting your PDF facts on the CKD...looking forward to your response

----------


## Damienm05

> I bought a bag of actual flax seeds , not the oil. why does the actual seeds have carbs and the oil doesnt? enough of the seeds and it will kick me outta ketosis right? 
> 
> anyone use the seeds?
> 
> thanks Chris


The seeds are 100% fibrous. 11g of carbs per serving are all via fiber. No better fiber supp than these, imo.

As for the oil not having carbs; think about it. They are pressed for their oil and any actually starchy/fibrous matter does not come along with it.

----------


## oker

> Top, PM'd you in regard to getting your PDF facts on the CKD...looking forward to your response


bump

----------


## tembe

so i have a question then

I have been on a keto diet now for 9 weeks..i have had a few cheat meals in those 9 weeks..maybe 4-5 sushi meals in total... havnt cheated for 3 weeks straight

anyways i have felt like fat loss has paused or slowed in the past 2 days so late arvo/last night i carbo loaded..and then this morning i carbo loaded with bread making toast.. Should i continue carbo loading today then go straight back into keto tomorrow?

----------


## oker

> so i have a question then
> 
> I have been on a keto diet now for 9 weeks..i have had a few cheat meals in those 9 weeks..maybe 4-5 sushi meals in total... havnt cheated for 3 weeks straight
> 
> anyways i have felt like fat loss has paused or slowed in the past 2 days so late arvo/last night i carbo loaded..and then this morning i carbo loaded with bread making toast.. Should i continue carbo loading today then go straight back into keto tomorrow?


T - Post your diet and stats so we can get a better idea

----------


## oker

PS, before I started this diet (keto) my weight loss stagnated much like yours, I discovered I was eating to many cal per day...I adjusted it to better suit my LBM and now I'm losing the weight again at great speed! Your diet may indeed be a part of your problem so by posting your stats, diet, etc, members can get a better idea of how to assist you

Cheers

----------


## tembe

> T - Post your diet and stats so we can get a better idea


Diet Protein Carbs	Fats	Calories
Meal 1 Protein shake (after cardio) 40 5	1.5 203
Meal 2 2 Tuna Tasters and 5 grams fish oil 29 258
Meal 3 Tuna, 5 Egg White Omelette 32.5 2.7	156.7
Meal 4 Protein Shake (after gym) 40 5	1.5 203
Meal 5 10 Egg White Omelette 36 160
Meal 6 Protein shake and 5 grams of fish oil 36 5	2.7 227

TOTALS PROTEIN	213.5 CARBS 15 FATS 8.4 CALORIES 1207.7

Also do early morning cardio involving 30-45 min of swimming...

Weight - 89kg
Height - 5ft 10
Strength (to get gauge of muscle) - Bench Press 120kg 8 R 3 Sets
- Shoulder Press 45kg 7 R 3 Sets
- Squats 120kg 8 R 3 Sets

So theres just general strength to indicate my muscle mass.


Aiming to get down to around 10% bf. Atm i am probs around 14-15%

----------


## **TOP**

> Diet Protein Carbs	Fats	Calories
> Meal 1 Protein shake (after cardio) 40 5	1.5 203
> Meal 2 2 Tuna Tasters and 5 grams fish oil 29 258
> Meal 3 Tuna, 5 Egg White Omelette 32.5 2.7	156.7
> Meal 4 Protein Shake (after gym) 40 5	1.5 203
> Meal 5 10 Egg White Omelette 36 160
> Meal 6 Protein shake and 5 grams of fish oil 36 5	2.7 227
> 
> TOTALS PROTEIN	213.5 CARBS 15 FATS 8.4 CALORIES 1207.7
> ...


Thats some extremely low calories for a male trying to build muscle and loss BF. I would tell you to never go below 1700 and thats the rock bottom. My wifes calories are around that when she's in contest mode.

----------


## gbrice75

TOP - nice to see you're still around bro!

----------


## oker

Hey TOP, now that you're back did you have a chance to read my PM? When you are ready bro - I imagine you will have a few to go through. Anyway, below is my CKD diet when you have time pls critique it...I'm 190 pounds and my LBM is about 160-170

Cheers!

*Meal 1 - 8:00AM*
2 whole eggs
2 slices of can bacon
1 tbsp butter
1 tbsp Mustard 
X 2 fish oil

*Meal 2 - 11:00PM*
30g peanuts
25grams cheddar
X 2 fish oil

*Meal 3 - 2:00PM*
120 grams grams chic
1tbsp mayo, 1 Tbsp mustard
1 tbsp Olive Oil, 1 cup lettuce Salad
2 x fish oil

*Meal 4 - 5:00PM*
30g peanut
25grams Cheddar cheese
2 x fish oil

*Meal 5 - 8:00PM*
WHEY WORK OUT DAYS ONLY
OR WHOLE FOOD *NON* WORK OUT DAYS
Whey (Tue, Thurs, Sun)
Or, 120 Grams Chicken and Cheese

*Meal 6 - 10:30*
1 scoop Casein

----------


## oker

> Diet Protein Carbs Fats Calories
> Meal 1 Protein shake (after cardio) 40 5 1.5 203
> Meal 2 2 Tuna Tasters and 5 grams fish oil 29 258
> Meal 3 Tuna, 5 Egg White Omelette 32.5 2.7 156.7
> Meal 4 Protein Shake (after gym) 40 5 1.5 203
> Meal 5 10 Egg White Omelette 36 160
> Meal 6 Protein shake and 5 grams of fish oil 36 5 2.7 227
> 
> TOTALS PROTEIN 213.5 CARBS 15 FATS 8.4 CALORIES 1207.7
> ...


And why the protein so high and fats so low...isn't this the opposite of the theory behind Top's suggestions for CKD? Should be around 30% protein, 65% Fats and the rest carbs...take a look at my diet above T.

----------


## Damienm05

> And why the protein so high and fats so low...isn't this the opposite of the theory behind Top's suggestions for CKD? Should be around 30% protein, 65% Fats and the rest carbs...take a look at my diet above T.


I got his diet sorted out. It's now a keto diet, lol.

----------


## Damienm05

> Hey TOP, now that you're back did you have a chance to read my PM? When you are ready bro - I imagine you will have a few to go through. Anyway, below is my CKD diet when you have time pls critique it...I'm 190 pounds and my LBM is about 160-170*I'm not TOP but I can help for now. The boy hasn't been around much sadly.*
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> *Meal 1 - 8:00AM*
> 2 whole eggs
> 2 slices of can bacon
> 1 tbsp butter
> 1 tbsp Mustard 
> ...


- There's not enough green veggies. You can get away with a few servings of broccoli and such and still stay under 25g carbs.

- It's nice to have the leeway to eat pork rinds and cheese and shit but come on, we're bodybuilders, not truckers. If you're on the go and have to resort to it, fine but a keto diet should still be about healthy fats whenever possible.

- While this sort of diet is more about fat than protein, all meals should still center around a somewhat substantial portion of protein, using the fat elements for flavor/lubrication and to increase protein synthesis.

----------


## digismash

I have been following this diet for 3 weeks and am responding very well to it, thanks to help from you guys (mostly Damienm05 tyvm), my question is I workout with a PL coach and my workouts are on tues thurs and sat. either squat, deads, bench 5x5 all, or squat, military, bo rows 5x5 all.

started 306lbs now 294lbs (alot of muscle returning)
BP 165 over 95 now 143 over 89

My question is since I am not working out 3 days in a row, what can I do to increase fat loss and should Sunday be my carb up day?

thank you,

Eric

----------


## baddgsx

hey everybody, 

Im still on this diet and wont stop till im satisfied with the look of my mid-section. The definition down the middle is finally starting to show but its taking longer than I expected. 


This past month Ive added things to help boost my performance. 

600mg primo a week 1 month ago
80mg anavar a day , 1 week ago
1 hour deep tissue massage a week , 1 month ago. Bumped it up to two times a week.
4 pills of KRE-Alkalyn 1500 a day, just added it the other day. ( read that creatine with anavar is a good combo.)

This month I expect to see better results. Ive beening gaining .5 lbs of weight a week the past 3 weeks. I totally recommend the massages. Help with recovery and move the blood around the body. 

This week im going to focus on cardio only , and take a rest from working out till the fullbody and hit it hard then.

----------


## alexkorbutiak

Top,

Can you please PM me a copy of that book, and also a sample of your diet?

Thanks.

----------


## johnfi

SO if follwing this diet witha standars 500 -300 caloric deficit a day you shoulden't loose much to hardly any muscle. what would happen if you follow the same exact diet while on a cutting cycle? has anyone tried this? would tis mean you may even put a little muscle on?

----------


## oker

> Top,
> 
> Can you please PM me a copy of that book, and also a sample of your diet?
> 
> Thanks.


Good luck getting an answer - I've asked TOP to PM me a few times about the book and diet but to no avail!

----------


## G.P.

This is a great thread. I've heard of it but that's as far as it went. I never really looked into it & just put it on the list of fad diets. After reading all this & some links I might give a try for a couple months just to see how I respond to it. It all makes sense once you get into the details of it.

----------


## oker

> This is a great thread. I've heard of it but that's as far as it went. I never really looked into it & just put it on the list of fad diets. After reading all this & some links I might give a try for a couple months just to see how I respond to it. It all makes sense once you get into the details of it.


I did the diet for a few months and it worked very well, although, there was a point where the weight just stopped dropping off. In the beginning I was losing 1kg a week and eating bacon and eggs for breakfast - very much enjoyed that. However, bear in mind that you make no solid muscle gains on CKD diet but maintain muscle only. Now I've switched to the low carb (morn) and healthy fats (afternoon) diet, much like the diets you see posted in this diet section, and the fat started to drop off again. Long story short, CKD is a good starting point to reach your objective, but eventually you'll need to switch back to healthy carbs to make any real gains.

----------


## johnfi

Because of my shedual I start my carb load on saturday evening and all day sunday. So in other words sunday is my full day of carb loading.

Now my question is can I weight train on monday? I ask this because I know the way the program is suppose to go if you where to carb load friday night thrgout saturday is that you take sunday off and just do cardio and in that scenario that workout perfect because you get to rest on sunday a perfect day for that IMO!! But since in my case my monday is my sunday , I wanted to know if it was ok to get my first weight training session of the week that day given the fact that monday am always full of energy and is practicaly my favorite day to go to the gym.

----------


## johnfi

bump

----------


## Sinned5332

Hey all.. I just wanted to share my experiences on the 1 week I've done so far.

I started out at about 250 lbs when I finally got fed up with how I look and feel. I started to watch what I eat more carefully and go to the gym more often. Then I found this site. When I started on Monday I think I weighed in at 232. Friday morning I was 228. 

I started last week, Monday, gym closed for holiday. Good start.. LOL
I kept my carbs as close to 0 as possible. I know I ate some, but not more than 30 each day. I bought ketostix to see what was happening. I had heard about the metallic taste, but I had that on Monday... So I wasn't convinced. LOL

Tuesday the stix were negative, I just kept eating meat, went to the gym and did my upper body workout and 45 minutes walking on the treadmill.

Wednesday I was showing trace amounts on the stix, worked my legs and 30 minutes walking on the treadmill. Trace amounts on the stix.

Thursday I didn't get to the gym because I'd been waiting for UPS to show up with a delivery, and they didn't get there until after 7, by then I was starving and by the time I ate it was too late. Stix were between trace and low.

Friday total body workout and 30 minutes on on the treadmill. When I peed on the stix they were MAROON showing a high result. I got back on the carbs and today the stix show negative. LOL 

I'm going to keep going and see what happens.

----------


## amostofi1999

guys, should i use creatine on no carb days? should i use other type than mono? not sure if it works or not without carbs.

----------


## marcus300

> Hey all.. I just wanted to share my experiences on the 1 week I've done so far.
> 
> I started out at about 250 lbs when I finally got fed up with how I look and feel. I started to watch what I eat more carefully and go to the gym more often. Then I found this site. When I started on Monday I think I weighed in at 232. Friday morning I was 228. 
> 
> I started last week, Monday, gym closed for holiday. Good start.. LOL
> I kept my carbs as close to 0 as possible. I know I ate some, but not more than 30 each day. I bought ketostix to see what was happening. I had heard about the metallic taste, but I had that on Monday... So I wasn't convinced. LOL
> 
> Tuesday the stix were negative, I just kept eating meat, went to the gym and did my upper body workout and 45 minutes walking on the treadmill.
> 
> ...


Your workout routine is awful and you need fats when working with a CKD.

----------


## marcus300

> guys, should i use creatine on no carb days? should i use other type than mono? not sure if it works or not without carbs.


You can use creatine on no carb days but I feel its better on the carb load days at the weekend because creatine needs and works better when its got a delivery agent so it can be easily transported via your carbs

----------


## johnfi

> Because of my shedual I start my carb load on saturday evening and all day sunday. So in other words sunday is my full day of carb loading.
> 
> Now my question is can I weight train on monday? I ask this because I know the way the program is suppose to go if you where to carb load friday night thrgout saturday is that you take sunday off and just do cardio and in that scenario that workout perfect because you get to rest on sunday a perfect day for that IMO!! But since in my case my monday is my sunday , I wanted to know if it was ok to get my first weight training session of the week that day given the fact that monday am always full of energy and is practicaly my favorite day to go to the gym.


anyone?

----------


## Failure

I thought that the purpose of the refeed is to allow you to work harder in the coming week. Why wouldn't you? The 2 days after my cheat day are the best days for me to work out.

----------


## johnfi

> I thought that the purpose of the refeed is to allow you to work harder in the coming week. Why wouldn't you? The 2 days after my cheat day are the best days for me to work out.


yes and it totaly makes sensebut for some reason most people just do cardio the day right after carb loading. wich for most is sunday

----------


## baddgsx

friends , 

I stopped the CKD diet 2 weeks ago , switched to a 40/40/20 of just , egg whites, chicken, avacado, flax seed oil and oatmeal for carbs ( yep with no cheating ). I feel great. My abbs are really showing nicely. 

On sunday i started the UD 2.0 diet. I like this diet better than the carb keto because i dont eat soo much fatty foods. Im eating 300g of protein and 20g of fat from avacado and flax seed oil. 1200 calories for 4 days before the carb up. 

I want to carb up with just oatmeal. Im going to test this first week out with carbing only oatmeal. We will see how it goes. Im not near 6 percent.maybe about 11-12% Its taking longer than i expected. 

I didnt REALISE I was this fat , lol 


UD is different and im gonna stick with it for 6-8weeks and then bridge again with 40/40/20 to get my body and mind a break. Then ill continue if i didnt hit 6% or mirror satisfactory.


Chris

----------


## alluprbdy

What are some of the liquid carbs u guys drink on carb day, I had some sodas last carb day now after looking at this thread thinking that was a bad call?

----------


## D7M

You should be drinking alot of water on your "carb days", but if you're a soda guy (I'm really not), then have a soda then. 

I actually like having wine or a cocktail on my carb up days with big carby meal

----------


## alluprbdy

okay ya, I still drank a lot of water just had about 24oz of soda and 16oz of cran juice to try and get some liquid carbs.

----------


## D7M

> okay ya, I still drank a lot of water just had about 24oz of soda and 16oz of cran juice* to try and get some liquid carbs*.


You don't really need "liquid" carbs at all on your re-feeds. 

You can restore leptin and ghrelin just fine without them.

----------


## baddgsx

> You don't really need "liquid" carbs at all on your re-feeds. 
> 
> You can restore leptin and ghrelin just fine without them.


+1 , i dont carb up with the liquids any more. I do continue to have a half a bannana before the carb up though. I engoy it. I even eat it super slow, got get your CHI in there!  :Smilie:

----------


## baddgsx

> What are some of the liquid carbs u guys drink on carb day, I had some sodas last carb day now after looking at this thread thinking that was a bad call?


Try not to have sucrose on yor carb up. Its alot better. It could just be my body, but everytime ive carbed with candy or even that sugar free flavored seltzer water i would have a not so successful carb-up. 

It would even come down to what carb i eat. One week i did just pastas , one week i did just rice , and another was just oatmeal. Carbing up with just rice and just oatmeal worked better than the pastas for me. 

next week im gonna combine the two and try to remember how i felt. 

you dont want any fructose either.

----------


## baddgsx

since im super anabolic on my 1st full day of carb up i like to do abbs and alot of stretching a couple hours before bed. when i stretch i do some posing as that helps move nutrients through the body with out totally shocking it with a full body heavy workout.

----------


## ls1 fd3s

ive been trying to find a compliation of ketogenic foods. I know the basics, eggs, cheese, chicken, bacon, butter, fish, beef, olive oil, half/half milk. But pecans and peanut butter are borderline as they contain 4-6gs carbs per serving. BUT i read that since they both contain 3-4g fiber each serving, something about it that the fibers cancel out some of the carbs? Im just trying to make sense of this as i LOVE pecans and peanut butter together, ****in amazing. Im gonna post my ketogenic diet up shortly and see if i can get some answers.

----------


## Papiriqui

Bump! Great threat...

----------


## edgarr

I was going to start my CKD last week but with the holiday and some traveling I am starting this week. I will have my last carb meal today around noon and then re start the carb up Friday at noon. My workout will be Mon-chest, shoulders, tris Tuesday- legs and abs, Wed-Back, bis and forearms, Thurs-am cardio, Fri- full body workout around noon and start carb up.

----------


## hex

i was wondering what a typical weekly mealplan would look like... i assume you drop all carbs and replace in what split between fat/protien? i am at 20% or so and am looking to cut way down... the ckd seems right up my alley... mon-fri i spend working and have huge control over my diet, weekends are a little more chaotic

----------


## breakthelines

Great read Top.
About the start this tomorrow.
Going to go P-30%, C - 5%, F - 65%.
Cutting about 500cals down to 2400cals

----------


## spacemon

> ive been trying to find a compliation of ketogenic foods. I know the basics, eggs, cheese, chicken, bacon, butter, fish, beef, olive oil, half/half milk. But pecans and peanut butter are borderline as they contain 4-6gs carbs per serving. BUT i read that since they both contain 3-4g fiber each serving, something about it that the fibers cancel out some of the carbs? Im just trying to make sense of this as i LOVE pecans and peanut butter together, ****in amazing. Im gonna post my ketogenic diet up shortly and see if i can get some answers.


Check out this article I found a while back. He has a great list of Keto foods and some good info for sure. I haven't read this whole thread yet so sorry if its already been posted.

Joseph Arcita: A Guide to Ketosis

----------


## spacemon

lol sorry that post is a little old.....

----------


## RaginCajun

Bump for a great thread

----------


## Xphanial

Greetings sir top, may I also get a PM of this book?

----------


## Sfla80

> Greetings sir top, may I also get a PM of this book?


Top has been gone for awhile

----------


## Splifton

Cyclical ketogenic carbohydrate manipulation is just an interpretation of carb cycling, but with a more extreme approach to initiating glycogen depletion and utilizing the refeed/overfeed periods. I would assume that this approach would provide you with periodical glycogen super-compensatory uptake activities. Just have to time those crucial periods appropriately to correspond with your exercise routine.

However, because of the rapid fluctuation I would assume you'd experience dietary keto-adaptation, but it wouldn't fully set in I think.. I could be wrong, but during true glycogen depletion you're overall mood is distraught until the shift is completed and your body begins to allocate it's cellular currency towards fatty acid oxidation.

----------


## Xphanial

....

----------


## Xphanial

> Cyclical ketogenic carbohydrate manipulation is just an interpretation of carb cycling, but with a more extreme approach to initiating glycogen depletion and utilizing the refeed/overfeed periods. I would assume that this approach would provide you with periodical glycogen super-compensatory uptake activities. Just have to time those crucial periods appropriately to correspond with your exercise routine.
> 
> However, because of the rapid fluctuation I would assume you'd experience dietary keto-adaptation, but it wouldn't fully set in I think.. I could be wrong, but during true glycogen depletion you're overall mood is distraught until the shift is completed and your body begins to allocate it's cellular currency towards fatty acid oxidation.


I see...........

----------


## Xphanial

started on Monday the 9/11/15.
I'm full all the time, that never happens. 
been feeling tiered though, no loss of strength, just feels like I have a cold. is that normal ?

----------


## RaginCajun

> started on Monday the 9/11/15. I'm full all the time, that never happens. been feeling tiered though, no loss of strength, just feels like I have a cold. is that normal ?


Having zero carbs can make you feel, 'blah'.

Are you carbing up on the weekends?

----------


## Xphanial

> Having zero carbs can make you feel, 'blah'. Are you carbing up on the weekends?


Friday night and Saturday. Trying to eat 450g of carb is hella hard >_< 
Have been having headaches to.

----------


## Xphanial

> Friday night and Saturday. Trying to eat 450g of carb is hella hard >_< Have been having headaches to.



Sorry I should elaborate,

191g fat 65%
155g pro 30%
31g carb 5% 

2455 cals all up. 
Eating every 3 hours, starting from 6:30am
Saturday =
?% fat
150g pro
450g carb
Really struggling to eat that much rice and spud :/

----------


## RaginCajun

> Sorry I should elaborate, 191g fat 65% 155g pro 30% 31g carb 5% 2455 cals all up. Eating every 3 hours, starting from 6:30am Saturday = ?% fat 150g pro 450g carb Really struggling to eat that much rice and spud :/


You should keep fats around 50-60 grams on those carb up days. 

Are you a diabetic?

Have you ever had your blood glucose measured?

----------


## Xphanial

> You should keep fats around 50-60 grams on those carb up days. Are you a diabetic? Have you ever had your blood glucose measured?


No I'm not diabetic, but have also never had it measured.

----------


## InternalFire

this is awesome thread, I'm 3rd day on 20-25g carbs/day ~2500 kcal/day regimen, today had super-craving and desire of me quitting and getting those cookies loaded with peanut butter, topped with some bananas and get these apples in there, but after every meal that went trough my "face-door" that was just ~10g worth of carbs and sh1tload of fats and protein, cravings disappeared like a bad dream.

I guess my ketosis is taking place as my wife complained of my bad breath smelled like a "wet-dog", and for the last 10hours I've been thirsty as hell .. literally today drank ~4Liters of water, throat feels constantly dry and no matter how much water I take in it doesnt wash it off enough, pissing waterfalls every time I go in to bathroom... yet no headaches..

Day1 and day2, especially day2 - I have been hit with extreme fatigue and brain-fog like I was just thinking wtf am I doing, this cant be good, and then told myself (self talk) I bet this is my body craving for carbs switching to ketosis and wants me to eat all that carb in the kitchen... but I just hit on some games on the PC having some free time to get brain distracted and it worked well... then came the feed time

also, while on low carbs, after meals I stay full for very long, looks like 1-2 times feed a day is going to be the case, and it may be handy with new works planned ahead

----------


## RaginCajun

Bump!!!

----------


## RaginCajun

Found it

----------


## InternalFire

its the best diet thread EVAR!!!

----------


## Stinger910

What if you simply don't carb load and stay in ketosis for weeks or even months?

----------


## RaginCajun

> What if you simply don't carb load and stay in ketosis for weeks or even months?


Then you would stay/be in keto and not cycle carbs

----------


## Stinger910

is one more beneficial than the other? or is Carb Cycling just to keep you sane but not quite as effective at burning fat as Keto is, ect?

----------


## InternalFire

oh man, I will come out rude as fu*k now, but cmon you're now seated in this amazing thread about this very diet, it all starts at page #1, full of info and answers to all and any questions that may arise, why not to read trough... ? And if you cant be arsed, there's even a search engine here that works miracles on this site  :Smilie: 
You should like the answers since you have all these questions

its about finding what works for you, and in a sense - ANY DIET WILL HELP YOU BURN FAT IF USED CORRECTLY  :Wink:

----------


## RaginCajun

Bumpity bump!!!

----------


## Kiltit

Just adding additional resources to get info from. Dr Dominic D'Agostino, Dr Rhonda Patrick are two excellent sources. Also can check them both out on JRE podcast. Some really excellent material to dig into.
Just sharing my experience. I do not know how to count macros. I eyeballed my keto experience, had a bad keto flu episode at days 4-7. Minor weight lose the first week. After 45 days I dropped 50lbs. But I was also A little outta shape. 295 down to 245. I kept the diet simple for me and portable. I am fanatical about my dietary supplementation, all my vitamins minerals and fats. So that stayed the same. I completely cut out all my carbs. Breakfast was a huge spoonful of coconut oil and vit/minerals. Lunch was 2 avacatos with garlic salt pepper and hot sauce. Ate dinner at around 6 which was coconut oil, 2-3 hamburger patties(the cheap meat) or 3-4 roasted chicken thighs, steamed vegetables with a quarter stick of butter melted on the veggies.
The vegetables were always green leafy, broccoli, asparagus cabbage or Brussels sprouts. Meat was always the same and would use mustard on the patties. I know that sounds really bad with two meats, but I like it. It's cheap and easy. I also has a really tight budget to stay in so this was the best bang for my buck. If I felt hungry, I'd eat a spoonful of coconut oil, sour cream, or anything high in fat for a fatbomb to get me through. Mark Sisson has some really good resource material on what foods are good sources of fat. Anyway, always nursing a bad back so other than walking, there was no working out, and all that weight fell off. It was the best I'd felt in yrs. This got me into intermediate fasting,(eating between 4-7pm) giving me roughly 22-24hrs of fasting between meals. Truth is after you become fat adapted, you don't eat. I done several 3 day fasts this year just for the cellular cleansing affect. 
If not for holidays and events throughout the yr, I don't think I'd ever come out of ketosis. When I'm there, I feel so good with energy even if I'm fasting.

----------


## Kiltit

Just adding additional resources to get info from. Dr Dominic D'Agostino, Dr Rhonda Patrick are two excellent sources. Also can check them both out on JRE podcast. Some really excellent material to dig into.

----------


## MuscleScience

> Just adding additional resources to get info from. Dr Dominic D'Agostino, Dr Rhonda Patrick are two excellent sources. Also can check them both out on JRE podcast. Some really excellent material to dig into.


That's my next JRE podcast I'm going to listen too. Makes doing cardio a breeze, just kinda get lost in how well he conducts those interviews.

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## Kiltit

Yes JRE will pass the time quickly. Dr Patrick has been on the show about 5 times. Might want to have a notebook handy to jot down notes or a time in the podcast to go back to and revisit. Same for Dr D'Agostino and Mark Sisson podcasts. Dr Patrick has a podcast/website "Found My Fitness" with hours of info from hot/cold shock proteins, gene editing through nutrition and everything under the sun dealing with DNA and cellular health. A lot of her podcasts I've listened to several times over which generally takes me into other avenues of bettering my health.

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## MuscleScience

> Yes JRE will pass the time quickly. Dr Patrick has been on the show about 5 times. Might want to have a notebook handy to jot down notes or a time in the podcast to go back to and revisit. Same for Dr D'Agostino and Mark Sisson podcasts. Dr Patrick has a podcast/website "Found My Fitness" with hours of info from hot/cold shock proteins, gene editing through nutrition and everything under the sun dealing with DNA and cellular health. A lot of her podcasts I've listened to several times over which generally takes me into other avenues of bettering my health.


Thanks for sharing that info! I'll get on it. Listening to Dom right now.

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## RaginCajun

bumpity bump bump

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## MuscleScience

Need some Keto chili recipes.

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## RaginCajun

> Need some Keto chili recipes.


here ya go https://www.wholesomeyum.com/recipes...o-gluten-free/

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## MuscleScience

> here ya go https://www.wholesomeyum.com/recipes...o-gluten-free/


i actually made that chili. I kinda messed it up though. i thought i would be cute and brown the meat in the crock pot. All it did was make is greasy AF. Next time I won’t make that mistake. Other than that though, it was really good.

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## RaginCajun

> i actually made that chili. I kinda messed it up though. i thought i would be cute and brown the meat in the crock pot. All it did was make is greasy AF. Next time I won’t make that mistake. Other than that though, it was really good.


definitely need to brown the meat and veggies first. 

i am going to try this once i move and get settled in my new place.

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## MuscleScience

> definitely need to brown the meat and veggies first. 
> 
> i am going to try this once i move and get settled in my new place.


Yep totally, I also added a pound of pork sausage too. That was a good touch.

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