# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING Q & A >  T3,Clen,ECA for Contests?

## joe293

Looking for typical uses from 20 weeks out for any of the three. Or other goodies that you might toss in. How do you set your protocol up? I've already run 3 weeks of clen and even with Benadryl it's not kicking in anymore. I'm giving it a week or two off.

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## RuhlFreak55

Benadryl doesn't work...you need ketotifen....

and I'm using clen and t3 for my prep....cycled the clen up to 6 weeks out...now running clen up to 1 week out then dropping it...keep t3 in (i wont drop regardless of what anyone says because you need to taper it).

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## allpower

I'm sorry if this somewhat hijacks your thread, but I've been looking for an answer to my question for about a week now, and it seems like you guys are on the track. 

If you run clen with t3 and ketotifen, in what increments do you run it?

For example: would you run them together on the same days or a week on clen then a week on the t3, etc. I've never run it with keto and am confused on how i should do this

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## joe293

> I'm sorry if this somewhat hijacks your thread, but I've been looking for an answer to my question for about a week now, and it seems like you guys are on the track. 
> 
> If you run clen with t3 and ketotifen, in what increments do you run it?
> 
> For example: would you run them together on the same days or a week on clen then a week on the t3, etc. I've never run it with keto and am confused on how i should do this


This is from someone at AB in reference to the use of T3. I've been told this same info several times so I always run T3 my whole contest cycle 20+ weeks. Never seems to be a problem. The Ketotifen (which I haven't tried) is so you can use clen more than two weeks at a time. After two or three weeks it stops being effective and you need to take a week or two off before starting it back up again.

Here's the post from AB;

"I don't know where all of the propaganda on T3 came from, but it's all nonsense. Run it for 16 weeks. Or 24. Or 48. Or forever.

People feel security in information that they find comfortable, even if it doesn't contain any truth. As bodybuilders, we like to relate everything to cycling and periodization because it's familiar to us; our minds insist that it makes sense. There is no long term shutdown from Cytomel . It has a half-life of 30-some hours.

The endocrine system works through feedback mechanisms, not autonomous memory cells. Your thyroid doesn't get spiteful that you've been on T3 for months and refuse to produce hormone. When it gets the tsh signal, it produces."

Hope this helps.

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## joe293

Here a good post by Raver over at Promuscle:

Cytomel (Mexican Cynomel) Synthetic T-3 amd Clenbuterol Stacking - A Quick Weight Loss Solution
This is to be a far from scientific article, one based, rather, in practical experience in losing weight and helping others to lose weight. We are not, on the average, concerned with obese individuals, but those who have packed on an additional 12-25 pounds beyond what was expected in a traditional steroid cycle, and the weeks beyond.

Not all of us will gain this type of weight during a cycle, but those of us who use a high protein / high calorie diet in conjunction with heavy weight lifting, accompanied by a medium to high dosed androgenic (i.e., Dianabol , Testosterone , Trenbolone (Finaplix or Component T-H)) steroid cycle, will almost always pack on an additional 6-20 pounds of pure lard. Granted that Burger King, Hooters, and Papadeux are not on the traditional bodybuilders menu, many of us are either forced, or by personal inclination, choose to indulge in calorie/fat bombs in order to provide the necessary building blocks for muscle.
Who, after all, can subsist on 3-5 protein shakes a day? I certainly can't, and from what I've seen of the advice on the boards, a Whopper or 2 every other day seems to be the prescribed regimen for gaining LBM - the prized Lean Body Mass.
Let's look at that paradigm for a moment - LBM. Sure and granted, we all seek this Holy Grail of Bodybuilding, but too many novices and mid-level bodybuilders alike sacrifice gaining pure muscle mass, in favor of gaining 2-6 pounds of LBM with a $400 - $1100 steriod cycle - all because they want to stay lean.
I might be wrong (it's been known to happen, albeit once a year or so), but if I'm going to invest that kind of dough, I want to see some by God muscle appear. In order to build the kind of muscle I expect from a cycle, I need to consume 4000 - 6000 calories a day, depending upon what I'm doing (Touch Football, Softball, or Indoor Soccer season). Those calories don't ALL go towards LBM, many (sometimes too many) go towards pure lard.
Don't get me wrong, the intensity you apply in the gym does, in fact, burn some serious fat, while at the same time channeling blood, nutrients, and the cherished PUMP to your muscles. However, if you intend to gain serious mass, and here I give kudos to the WarPig, you'll bulk and bloat.
Damnit, the bloat. We don't want to look like Beachballs, we want to look like Footballs - tight, tapered, lean in all the right places. How to eat the necessary calories, the necessary protein, the absolutely essential, energy giving Carbohydrates, without the dreaded bloat?

Here's where the first application of T-3 comes in. I won't quote any studies (there are few), but from personal experience, and the experience of those amatuer and mid-level bodybuilders I've helped, a 25-50mcg dosage of T-3, per day, will help to reduce bloating and water retention, while at the same time enhancing the effect of whatever steriod (androgenic or anabolic ) the user chooses. It won't, by any means, keep the mass from piling on, but it will eliminate the dreaded moon face and the hideous stomach bloat.

The second application of T-3 is intended to quickly reduce the blubber produced by a serious mass cycle, and ALWAYS, always includes Clenbuterol. Say, for example, you've done a Raver Cycle - 2g Test, 600mg Deca , and 50-75mg Dbol a day, for 12 weeks. You've devoured 3 Cornish Game Hens at a meal, wolfed down a double Whopper with cheese, but no Mayo every other day, and forced yourself to eat spaghetti with meatballs, cottage cheese, herb-seasoned chicken breasts, pork tenderloins, meatloaf, oatmeal, grits, and eggs, eggs, eggs, tuna tuna tuna, along with 2-3 daily protein shakes.
Trust me - you're fat. You look big as shit in the mirror, but you have no abs, no separation, and no definition. The remedy?
Weigh yourself. For every pound, use 1mcg of T-3. If you weigh 180, and you look fat, use 175mcg of T-3. If you weigh 250, and you look fat, use 250mcg of T-3. Round the dosage down to the nearest 25mcg, and stack Clenbuterol at 5-12 tabs a day for 6 weeks. Follow a CKD diet, such as Body Opus or Animalobolics, do 15-20 minutes of Cardio for the first 3 weeks, and watch the fat shed.

T-3 by itself produces sweat like there's no tomorrow - you'll have wet spots under your arms, under your pecs, in the crack of your ass, and, on your forehead. You might get the shakes.
T-3, stacked with Clenbuterol, will give you all of the above mentioned sweats, along with the shakes...your hands, your legs (stairs are really a bitch), and your neck, on occasion. If you have a job like mine, where the shakes are undesirable, use a potassium supplement or eat 2-3 bananas a day, it will alleviate them.

In summary, T-3 has two uses - eliminating bloat and water retention during a cycle, and rapid weight loss after a cycle. One of the things to remember while using this drug is that it DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE between LBM and pure fat - it eats tissue, period. I used T-3 exactly twice before figuring out that it should never be used without at least 400mg of Testosterone, preferably, in dieting mode, Propionate . A post cycle regimen of 1mcg T-3 per pound of bodyweight, along with Clenbuterol and a 50-100mg / day dosage of Test Prop, will work absolute wonders.
And now, for the Raver challenge (the third in 14 months) - If anyone - ANYONE can produce scientific, verifiable evidence that synthetic T-3 (Cytomel, Cynomel) causes thyroid shutdown in humans after prolonged, high dose use - I'll send them $100. A major medical journal, a study by a top 10 ranked pharmaceutical firm, or verifiable results of a personal medical evaluation (verifiable via documentation and confirmation by the physician) are acceptable. Barring that, let's not hear any further argument about the horrible side effects of T-3

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## allpower

Thanks so much, that was a terrific summary. 

I pretty much took from it that I can use them together for as long as I need to as long as I'm using keto with it. 

Still, my worry is the muscle loss. He said to use test prop to fight this, but I'm not sure I want to go through that cycle along with pct. Do you think it is absolutely neccessary to do this? Thank you, you have been a great help

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## MIKE_XXL

Regardless what anyone says, Clen is usless in my opinon, it downregulates the beta receptor extremely fast and it's not even that much more effective then ECA stack which works indefinitly...i am not sure why anyone would buy / use clen and not ECA. I say this time in and time out...ECA all the way, the amount of added benifit from Clen is so marginal that it has no use in BBing, not to mention it reduces your insulin sensitivity so it can interfear with carb up if ran to close to the show leaving a person looking flat...my 0.02cents on clen...

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## RuhlFreak55

> Regardless what anyone says, Clen is usless in my opinon, it downregulates the beta receptor extremely fast and it's not even that much more effective then ECA stack which works indefinitly...i am not sure why anyone would buy / use clen and not ECA. I say this time in and time out...ECA all the way, the amount of added benifit from Clen is so marginal that it has no use in BBing, not to mention it reduces your insulin sensitivity so it can interfear with carb up if ran to close to the show leaving a person looking flat...my 0.02cents on clen...


There are people that dispute the carb up interference on MD vehemently. 

Also...it raises your rmr by ~10% ECA CAN'T do that

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## joe293

> Regardless what anyone says, Clen is usless in my opinon, it downregulates the beta receptor extremely fast and it's not even that much more effective then ECA stack which works indefinitly...i am not sure why anyone would buy / use clen and not ECA. I say this time in and time out...ECA all the way, the amount of added benifit from Clen is so marginal that it has no use in BBing, not to mention it reduces your insulin sensitivity so it can interfear with carb up if ran to close to the show leaving a person looking flat...my 0.02cents on clen...


I'll be honest, I love ECA but I'm having a hell of a time finding Ephedrine anymore. Some supplement sites sold it as Vasopro and limited to 28-30 tablets within a certain time period. Plus you had to fill out that stupid DEA form. Now the price has tripled and might even be close to $4 a tab last I checked.

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## MIKE_XXL

> There are people that dispute the carb up interference on MD vehemently. 
> 
> Also...it raises your rmr by ~10% ECA CAN'T do that


I would like to see the researtch where you found that clen increases BMR by 10%...considering thyroid is 8% increase i doubt clen is anything near that...

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## Walnutz

> ECA stack which works indefinitly...


ECA stack does not work indefinitely. That needs to be cycled also.

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## MIKE_XXL

> ECA stack does not work indefinitely. That needs to be cycled also.


You are incorrect, it will work indefinitely due to no down regulation of beta receptor, the shakes and speedy feeling goes away as the stimulation of the nervous system degrades but the beta receptor is NOT down regulated, theoretically it will work forever, however I would not recommend the use of anything for extended period of time...

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## cumajstr

Hi Bros,
Can I do some lose fat benefit with stac T-3 just 12,5mcg per day ? I am natural and i wont use any steroids with T-3.So will be also in this amount only 12,5 mcg T-3 so katabolic and will be work for boost metabolism and reduce fat?
Thanx.

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