# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS > EDUCATIONAL THREADS >  Are orals really that toxic???

## Mike

A very interesting article I stumbled upon that you guys may want to read.



*Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: Is it overstated?*  

Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9 (ISSN: 1050-642X)

Dickerman RD; Pertusi RM; Zachariah NY; Dufour DR; McConathy WJ

The Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth 76107-2699, USA.

OBJECTIVE: There have been numerous reports of hepatic dysfunction secondary to anabolic steroid use based on elevated levels of serum aminotransferases. This study was conducted to distinguish between serum aminotransaminase elevations secondary to intense resistance training and anabolic steroid -induced hepatotoxicity in elite bodybuilders. 

DESIGN: This was a case-control study of serum chemistry profiles from bodybuilders using and not using anabolic steroids with comparisons to a cohort of medical students and patients with hepatitis. 

PARTICIPANTS: The participants were bodybuilders taking self-directed regimens of anabolic steroids (n = 15) and bodybuilders not taking steroids (n = 10). Blood chemistry profiles from patients with viral hepatitis (n = 49) and exercising and nonexercising medical students (592) were used as controls. 

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The focus in blood chemistry profiles was aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels. 

RESULTS: In both groups of bodybuilders, CK, AST, and ALT were elevated, whereas GGT remained in the normal range. In contrast, patients with hepatitis had elevations of all three enzymes: ALT, AST, and GGT. Creatine kinase (CK) was elevated in all exercising groups. Patients with hepatitis were the only group in which a correlation was found between aminotransferases and GGT. 

CONCLUSION: Prior reports of anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity based on elevated aminotransferase levels may have been overstated, because no exercising subjects, including steroid users, demonstrated hepatic dysfunction based on GGT levels. Such reports may have misled the medical community to emphasize steroid-induced hepatotoxicity when interpreting elevated aminotransferase levels and disregard muscle damage. For these reasons, when evaluating hepatic function in cases of anabolic steroid therapy or abuse, CK and GGT levels should be considered in addition to ALT and AST levels as essential elements of the assessment.

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## Kullman

Good post Mike bump!

Kull

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## atwa

great read......thanks bro!!!

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## GenuinePL

Great post. That's why we have a GOD :Big Grin:

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## The Iron Game

I personally think they are very over-rated on the hepatoxic side of things. The liver especially, im always reading of people saying 'dont do this for more than 4 weeks or dont do that for more than 6 weeks because if you do your liver will get fuck#d up'. The liver can be damaged to 75% and the liver can survive and remain functional on the 25% indefinitely. It is one of the most amazing organs and can withstand a lot of shit and can be neglected without much concern. Certain products can be used to reverse or prevent damage done but time off and no alcohol consumption can repair it in most cases within months to 100%.

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## prichy

im about to start my first cycle ive got some anavar ,winstrol and masteron tabs how toxic will these be for 6 weeks?and whats the best dose of anavar to take?

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## prichy

im 150 pounds,if i use 40mg winsrtrol,40mg masteron and about 50mg of anavar is it going to be effective?

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## eradikate

my friend is going to take methyl test and i heard it's very hard on the liver. by reading the article, i guess it won't hit him that hard eh? he's going to take anadrol for 1 week to start it off and going on meth test for 8 weeks. of course he got clomid and anti-e's on hand.

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## TNT

> _Originally posted by eradikate_ 
> *my friend is going to take methyl test and i heard it's very hard on the liver. by reading the article, i guess it won't hit him that hard eh . . .*


And do, pray tell, show us where you found _anything_ about methyltest in the article, which delat _generally_ with AS.

It is well known that oral test is more liver-toxic than injectable test. In other words, _any_ AS can cause hepatic dysfunction, but oral test tends to cause it more. Moreover, according to the American Assn. of Clinical Endocrinologists, oral test tends to result in a higher incidence of high LDL (bad cholesterol) and lowered HDL (good cholesterol).

I suggest that your buddy does a little more research before he plays with this one.

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## eradikate

my buddy will not listen to anything ill say. this is the real stubborn kid im talking about. he just heard that meth test will give you nice gains and feel like a million bucks he wants to take it. i know he's a dumbass i tell him everything i can but he won't listen. You think test alone will give you nice gains?? i mean it's his first time and he's a light weight like i am. but will test do the trick it self??

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## TNT

> _Originally posted by eradikate_ 
> *You think test alone will give you nice gains?? i mean it's his first time and he's a light weight like i am. but will test do the trick it self??*


In my experience (which, of course, makes it anecdotal in nature), absolutely. If I had to choose any one AS, it would be test. Combined, of course, with a solid workout routine, since _no_ AS will do the trick unless accompanied by exercise. Even then, I would not use oral test, but either enanthate or cyp. 

Again, I stress that this is a subjective opinion, since you'll also find lots of people who prefer propr or sust. But there is pretty much universal agreement among those with significant AS experience that methyltest is _not_ the way to go. 

So what does that make your buddy? Obviously, an amateur. Because _none_ of us is a know-it-all, and the first step to maturity in the wacky world of AS is being willing to listen to people with more experience and clinical knowledge than he obviously has.  :Smilie:

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## eradikate

Wow tnt, im always so impressed with your posts. you are a man with wide knowledge and i do respect that. ill tell him to read your post tommorrow and maybe just maybe...he'll change his mind. So what would you recommend tnt? if you were to tell a kid that's 5'10" weighing 155 lbs?? with such limited funds?? he can get methyl test cheap, and that's one main reason he's doing it like a retard. he's looking to gain 20-25 lb of solid muscle over 6-8 weeks and willing to keep most of the gains. im scared that meth test will fu(k him up and i dont want that to happen to him. he's one of my real real good friends. so what would you recommend TNT? you seem to have such a broad knowledge as i noticed by reading your other posts. please help me

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## TNT

Let me make the grammar clear. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't reommend anything, it means that I would recommend _nothing_.

I wish I could give you better feedback, eradikate, but I don't have a picture of your buddy (except that he's stubborn, which makes him as human as the rest of us). Other than knowing that he's 5'10" and 155 lbs. - and that leaves a puzzle with a lot of missing pieces. His age is a key factor, although you've given a clue by using the term _kid_ to describe him. Plus the usual other stuff - any underlying medical conditions, developmental issues, medications, his dietary picture, his current workout routine, etc.

There are two other factors that are important here. One is that you are the one making the inquiry, not him. The good news is that he has a friend who cares (that's you, bro). The bad news is that he doesn't have the motivation to do his own research, which is an indication that he's either uninterested or lazy. When it comes to doing AS, however, the "do-er" has to be self-motivated to take control as a _pro-active_ participant. If they don't care enough to initiate their own research _and_ they're stubborn if you try to tell them anything, it's like talking to a wall. And in that sense, bro, I know your frustration well.

The other factor is an old truth that applies to _any_ situation. You get what you pay for. Just as you're gonna get a better sound with a Fender Stratocaster than you are with a cheap guitar hanging from the pegboard at a K-Mart, you're gonna get less results from methyltest than you are from the good stuff. Does he want to do a quality cycle? Then let him save up and use quality gear. Because using cheap crap can do more harm than good.

If your friend is young (and, since you're 19, I assume he's fairly close in age), you know the rap: most of us are likely to tell him that he's too young to be doing AS. As you know, in many cases, that does not stop young guys from doing AS anyway. So then we have to move to the next goal: To encourage him to do as much research as possible. It's quite clear that he hasn't done it yet, especially if he's taking the word of the friendly neighborhood, um, merchant. (Factor number three, also relevant to everything from AS to used cars: Never take the word of someone whose ultimate goal is to make the sale.)

I would encourage him to become proactive and, if he's computer literate at all, check out this board himself. He'll find that there's a wealth of information - enough to add up to information overload - but it may underscore the fact that he has a lot of learning to do before he takes that first shot or pill. And the learning will pay off, because his ultimate gains will be that much more effective than if he goes into it half-assed.

Remember, as well, that we don't specialize in scare tactics here. (This is not _Reefer Madness_, a classic cult flick that's well worth watching if you can find it.) Granted, methyl test _can_ have negative efects, but that does not mean that it _will_ have negative effects. The issue is not _only_ the risk factor, which is quite real, but the fact that methyl test is not an _effective, efficient_ way to reach his goals.

My recommendation: Tell your buddy to hang out here for a while, so some _major_ surfing in the drug profiles, and get to know the search function on the threads. He'll be among friends. Because when it comes to _achieving_ your goals, with or without AS, knowledge _is_ power.

(Yaaaas! Everybody say, "Amen!" Now let's go kick some ass!)

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## Mallet

Great post Mike!

And IG i'm with you also on orals being over rated as far as liver toxicity...I dare to say how many orals and for how long i've taken them for... that's why I seldom tell the truth when someone asks me what my cycle looks like...I'm tired of the UNinformed opinion that you can't mix 2 17a's in the same cycle or like IG said " you can't take d-bol for more than 4 weeks "However I seldom reccomend to others what I would consider a safe cycle...because what they want to hear is take 30mgs d-bol for 4 weeks with 400mgs test/week and 400mgs of deca /week for 8 weeks and you'll be a Mr"O" in no time.

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## eradikate

thanx TNT. put it this way...he won't do research even if he was going to die if he didn't, he will not stop from doing AS, i mean he will NOT STOP. he's one of those kids who are just so 1 track minded. tommorrow im going to tell him meth test sux and tell him to do something else. but i don't know what to tell him... because im not even close to doing a cycle and i do not know much about it. all i know is that when my time comes im going to do Deca , Test, and d-bol. this is waht exactly went on when my friend met his source.
Friend: Hey what's going on?
Source: chilling man how you doing?
Friend: yea listen, im going to need some deca, sust, d-bol, nolva, and clomid.
Source: you sure you got money for that?? that's going to be a bit pricey..
Friend: so what should i do? i only have around 168 dollars as of now
Source: did you ever hear of meth test??
Friend: no...what is that?
Source: meth test is an oral AS, and i've tried it and got real good results and kept most of my gains!
Friend: yo let me get that!! 
Source: its also good to jump start with Anadrol also.
Friend: Really?
Source: so take Anadrol for wk1, than run meth test for wk1-8, this should give you a nice solid 25 lbs.
Friend: great!! call me later and we'll get this deal done!!
Source: alright man! C ya!!

this is what happened...lame...

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## Sjef

What´s the best time to take oral tabs? During the day, in the morning or in the evening, before/during/after meal(s)?

Thanks.

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## classic

> What´s the best time to take oral tabs? During the day, in the morning or in the evening, before/during/after meal(s)?
> 
> Thanks.


bump.

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## Sjef

I´ll try to answer mij own question regarding nobody does. I think it depends from the half-life time. Short half-life (couple of ours) -> spread as much as you can. Long half-life (for example 12 our) split to morning and evening.

Tabs you take with a meal and powder you take before a meal (empty stomach).

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## mithical

:Welcome:  ALL. Being a past excessive cocaine, mdma, user etc ive sorted it and invested in getting fit again and feeling gr8, nearly all drugs are over rated, yet we all deal different and tolerate different quantities. My livers daddy and i put some serious crap through that daily since i was 16, however some livers vary to the next, 1/10 are highly sensitive to mdma ecstacy for example, because they dont have an enzyme present in there liver thats responsible for fighting of the toxins and breaks mdma down. If your born that way and take to much, could mean caput. I know of people that reacted in this way and know of nobody thats died. Ive taken 500 pills in 7 months and im fine, hurt my hear for a while but so has the drink, if not more so. Out of 1000000 that abuse alcohol 646 die, now guess whats in the papers more? ---> ecstasy is. How many out of a million die from ecstasy, hmmmm, in the uk 7/1000000 and in the usa as low as 1/1000000 cos ur stuff tends to be half as strong. All ****e properganda, about illict drugs, steroids , nyaaaaaaaaa  :Elephant:  im hunry  :Dancing Banana:  sweet azzz. Sure this all applies to roids 2, Meaoooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Ps any advice on using winstrol , dianabol in a cycle alone+Nov,clomid etc, thanks, Im sorry, stupid post, its 3am im bored and have no life bye bye

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## TestMe

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that dbol DID slightly enlarge my liver, and DID cause abdominal pains (allthough not that intense, and not that long). But then, I was out drinking the short while I took it, and ran it solo (no test). This was before I started researching.

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## So-Solid

> A very interesting article I stumbled upon that you guys may want to read.
> 
> 
> 
> *Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: Is it overstated?*  
> 
> Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9 (ISSN: 1050-642X)
> 
> Dickerman RD; Pertusi RM; Zachariah NY; Dufour DR; McConathy WJ
> ...



Theres not much info in it about what doseages were used or for what period of time.Have you got a link to where you got this....

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## cyclist2173

FYI-I encountered drug-induced hepatitis from anadrol use (yellow eyes, skin). I know this to be a fact because i took no other drugs and did not drink. But, i was taking 100-150 mg of anadrol ED. This a fact and not overrated.

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## jucinator

Anadrol is the most toxic oral out there besides cheq drops at 150mgs everyday i can see why you had a problem i think using more than 50mgs a day is risky, although when i was young (23) and dumb me and a friend ran 100mgs a day for 60 days it messed him up but all my blood work came out fine (good for me) he on the other hand was never able to jucie again 2 different body types.

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## Seattle Junk

> FYI-I encountered drug-induced hepatitis from anadrol use (yellow eyes, skin). I know this to be a fact because i took no other drugs and did not drink. But, i was taking 100-150 mg of anadrol ED. This a fact and not overrated.


You had jaundice not "drug-induced hepatitis". Even at 100-150mgs/day, Anadrol shouldn't cause jaundice in somebody with a healthy liver. I would assume your liver may have already been damaged from other types of chemical abuse or you have a heriditary liver problem. The liver is a forgiving organ that filters our bodies from the crap we put in it. 3 a-bombs is toxic but it shouldn't cause jaundice in a healthy BB that eats correctly and drinks sufficient water. I bet you didn't drink enough water? Pro and experienced BBs take this amount quite often.

Damn, your kidneys must of had that dull gurgle all day long on 3 a-bombs? You must've had a general feeling of not well.

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## cyclist2173

Uh...No....I had Drug-Induced Hepatitis. Hepatitis literally means "Inflamed Liver". It can be caused by many things....most usually is a virus. Jaundice is a symptom of it. I was diagnosed at UCLA Medical Center. I did not drink. I did not take recreational drugs (besides steroids ). I did do Anadrol multiple times with only 8 weeks off at a time. Usually I would only take it up 100 mg. However, when I decided to take it up to 150 mg...my eyes turned yellow, skin, and my urine turned brown (from bilirubin spilling into my urine). I defnitely did not drink a gallon or more of water a day...but was never really dehydrated.

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## Seattle Junk

> Uh...No....I had Drug-Induced Hepatitis. Hepatitis literally means "Inflamed Liver". It can be caused by many things....most usually is a virus. Jaundice is a symptom of it. I was diagnosed at UCLA Medical Center. I did not drink. I did not take recreational drugs (besides steroids ). *I did do Anadrol multiple times with only 8 weeks off at a time.* Usually I would only take it up 100 mg. However, when I decided to take it up to 150 mg...my eyes turned yellow, skin, and my urine turned brown (from bilirubin spilling into my urine). I defnitely did not drink a gallon or more of water a day...but was never really dehydrated.


How many cycles with 8 weeks off did you do before the liver problem? a-bomb should only be used twice a year at 6 weeks max. Taxes the liver like no other. Lot of other great bulking drugs out there. I see abomb as a great jump start to a GH/AAS cycle.

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## big an rich

B-u-m-p

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## Seattle Junk

> B-u-m-p


Great avatar B&A. Is that you after and before pic, left to right?

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## AMERBOY

great post

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## AMERBOY

really great post

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## bor

> (Factor number three, also relevant to everything from AS to used cars: Never take the word of someone whose ultimate goal is to make the sale.)


That is soooooooooooo true

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## highschoollifter

hey i was wondering i am 230 pounds and i bench 205 squat 405 deadlift 455 powercling 275 how much of an effect whould anabol and sustanon do for me?? i am planin on taking sustanon once a week for 6 weeks and anabol twice a day for 8 weeks. how much of a muscle gain will this be?

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## Pinnacle

> hey i was wondering i am 230 pounds and i bench 205 squat 405 deadlift 455 powercling 275 how much of an effect whould anabol and sustanon do for me?? i am planin on taking sustanon once a week for 6 weeks and anabol twice a day for 8 weeks. how much of a muscle gain will this be?


You are 16 yrs old.*You have NO business doing anabolics at your age.It's kids like you that WE read about in press reports.* The risk/Reward is *NOT* in your favor.Do you want to risk damaging your body and hormonal system for the rest of your life just to look good for the girls?That is your entire motive by the way.I read your previous posts.
*Do some research and see what can/will happen to you using anabolics at 16 yrs old!* 

~Pinnacle~

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## highschoollifter

I HAVE AND WILL ok AS I HAVE SAID MANY FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS HAVE started at my age and earlier if u can not give me any help on how thangs will work for me and all u want to do is tell me the facts i allready know i will be done with this site i just wanted to see if anyone could let me know how they worked ok my bro started on those two at 15 ok so i know i will have effects longer in life i just was wondering if anyone could help me out man but it seems your more of trying to tell me what to do and not do!

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## Pinnacle

Here's his motives for wanting to do anabolics at age 16.Read on..........


http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=192156

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## Pinnacle

> I HAVE AND WILL ok AS I HAVE SAID MANY FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS HAVE started at my age and earlier if u can not give me any help on how thangs will work for me and all u want to do is tell me the facts i allready know i will be done with this site i just wanted to see if anyone could let me know how they worked ok my bro started on those two at 15 ok so i know i will have effects longer in life i just was wondering if anyone could help me out man but it seems your more of trying to tell me what to do and not do!


*No ONE on this site will help you out.You're 16 years old.You should be chasing girls,NOT drugs!* 

~Pinnacle~

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## highschoollifter

LIKE I SAID if u only want to talk crap then fine dont tell me what not to do though ok! and its not kids like me who u read about in the magazines and crap its kids my age who do stuff stupidly and dont ask fro any advice and dont try to get help on there way ok if u dont wana help me out then fine just dont keep talking crap thats not cool!

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## highschoollifter

ight look im sorry for being so damn hatefull but look ok ive ordered 6 weeks of sustanon and 8 weeks of anibol if u dont wana help me then fine just leave it at that ok

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## Seattle Junk

> ight look im sorry for being so damn hatefull but look ok ive ordered 6 weeks of sustanon and 8 weeks of anibol if u dont wana help me then fine just leave it at that ok


Quit trashing this board.

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## freakintraining

bro it is kids like you who give sports enhancing drugs a bad name....your the reason the god damn president is siginng bills and passing rediculus laws the reason prohormones are now banned.....diet cardio and weights dont be lazy....taking those drugs wont do sh*t if you cant do those 3 things naturtally...and when you parents catch you im sure youll be quick to blame AR or baseball

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## powerliftmike

This is true. As much as we try, this is why adolescents use AASs: they are too damn hard headed to listen to anybody's advice. Adolescence is very difficult time in today's performance society emphamsizing sex. Trying to talk highschoolifter out of taking AASs will undoubteldy end in failure.

Even if you were older, I wouldn't recommend those AASs for a first cycle. Sustanon is quite strong, and do you mean oxymetholone (anadrol ) as the other? Anadrol should only be used by experienced AAS users and even then it is very dangerous especially to the liver.

Hopefully you will wise up and wait a few more years before AASs. I am guessing you won't though, so all I can say is be careful and research all you can. I had been training myself many years naturally before going to AASs and I still wish I hadn't used some AASs (like Winstrol really messed up my joints).

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## kungen1234

There is no mention of oral steroids in the study. For all we know they could be on slin and HGH.

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## IronReload04

> I personally think they are very over-rated on the hepatoxic side of things. The liver especially, im always reading of people saying 'dont do this for more than 4 weeks or dont do that for more than 6 weeks because if you do your liver will get ****#d up'. The liver can be damaged to 75% and the liver can survive and remain functional on the 25% indefinitely. It is one of the most amazing organs and can withstand a lot of shit and can be neglected without much concern. Certain products can be used to reverse or prevent damage done but time off and no alcohol consumption can repair it in most cases within months to 100%.


thats besides the point, i wouldnt want my liver getting ****ed up AT ALL

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## Bertuzzi

An oldie but a goodie. Good info.... feel it needs a bump back to the top.

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## bradical2001

Injections are still way less toxic.

Just man the fck up

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