# MEMBERS EXPERIENCES > MEMBER'S CYCLE RESULTS >  Frontloaded Test E/Tbol cycle

## jc95605

I posted my log on another website but i'm not getting enough feedback. I'm copy and paste it on here and hopfully get some input. Thanks in advance for your input. This site rocks.

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## jc95605

*June 5th*

First off this is my first cycle on AAS so I guess My cycle is gonna be as follows:

week 1 1000mgs of test e
60mgs of tbol ed
week 2-7 60mgs of tbol ed
week 2-12 500mgs of test e

To answer your question, yes i'm frontloading. There are plently of logs for ppl doing 500mgs of test e cycles, but i haven't seen any with ppl frontloading. Why do i wanna frontload, well check out my post in the steriod cycles section marked "frontloading." After you read that I think you'll get it. Anyway I'll tell you what happened today and I'll close with my stats.

Day 1
This morning I tried to do my frist injection ever without success. I couldn't get the damn test to draw into the syringe! I went thru 2 1ml amps and I ran out of time. I had to get to school. Don't get me wrong i'm not giving up, I really wanted to do this. So I called our friend "bigrcs" and got some pointers. He told me what I already knew but I was off on the times. He told me to heat the amp to thin out the test. Now I tired it this morning but i only heated it for about 30secs and "bigrcs" told me i had to do it for 5mins. Ok no problem. When I came home from school around 1:30 i got straight to work. I got a cup of hot tap water, filled it about 1/3 full and put the amp in it and let it soak for about 5mins. When I went to check it, the water had already gotten cold. So I did it again, lol. This time I micowaved the water a lil hotter and took it out about 4mins later, perfect nice and warm. I cut the amp and started to draw. Another tip bigrcs gave me is that he said it takes pretty long to draw the test into the syringe about a min. This morning i went WAY too fast. Anyway with the heated test i started to draw incredibly slow, with no problem. So I was good to go. I decided to inject in my glute with a 23Gx1.5", everybody else uses that size, gotta be for a reason right. Bigrcs told me i only have to go about an inch in. Well, it took a lil force to puncture the skin but after i did i could barely feel it. It quickly went the full 1.5" in. Lemme tell you turned around like that injecting into your glute is kinda hard. My back was hurt and I had to readjust my hand quite a few times, and it still didn't really hurt. Anyway I injected in pretty slow as directed without problems. Pulled the needle out had barely a hint of blood wiped it away and was done. I don't believe i was so nervous about that. For all the new ppl going to inject.....its not bad at all, just man up and do it you'll survive. After I drew the needle out I massaged the injection site. This is something my doctor told me years ago that i figured i'd try. She said that if you massage the are and rub slightly you move the compound you just injected reduce soreness. I figured what the hell right? So I massaged it for about 10mins. And now its almost 5 hrs later and I can't even tell i injected there. I wonder what tomorrows gonna be like. Oh i also took 20mgs of tbol the same time i injected.

About 10mins after i injected for some reason my balls felt warm? Its probably in my mind but something was different. I went to the bathroom about 10mins after that and felt that my balls were hanging lower? I quickly decided that i'm too unsecure about it and theres no way i can feel the test kick in 20mins after the injection. Ten mins afer that my muscles felt hard and pumped up. I have to admit i was worried because it felt the same way after i took dbol . I had a bad experience with dbol. I bought tbol and got sent dbol. I finally decided it was dbol after about 7 days and 8lbs later. Anyway because of that i switched sources. The source i have now is awesome and i'm convinced that my source wouldn't do that, plus this is the first time i've taken tbol so how do i know how it reacts, right? So I'm gonna continue and pay close attention to my weight. As far as dosage goes i'm gonna try and take another 250mgs of test e and 20mgs of tbol tonight. I might not be able to, I might have to wait til tomorrow after school. I don't know how close you have to take the injections when you frontload. I wanna say its within the same day but i'm not positive. I have to reread that post, I have a bad memory. Anyway my total for today should be 500mgs of test e and 40mgs of tbol, tomorrow it'll be 60mgs.

Now for my workout. An hour passed from injecting and i couldn't wait to get to the gym for two reasons, #1 to see if theres any difference (which there shouldn't be this quick), and #2 i'm changing my workout schedule. I made another post asking how to change my schedule. I didn't get a clear answer so i did a lil more asking around and come up with this:

flat dumbell press: 60lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 80lbsx6
incline pec-dec flys (machine): 90lbs x10, 100lbs x10, 110lbsx10, 110lbsx10
decline bench press (machine): 150lbsx10, 150lbsx10, 150lbsx10
dumbell raise: 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7
military press (machine): 25lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 35lbsx10
barbell shrug: 60lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbs x10
cable pulldown (with rope attachment) 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 70lbsx10
tricep pulldown (triangle attachment) 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10

Couple of things i like to note. The shoulder/trap excercises were a first for me. I was trying to see where I was as you can see with the weight changes. After the gym i wasn't sore, which to me means i didn't train hard enough. Next time i work this muscle group the military press and the shrugs will have added weight. Secondly the triceps excercises are less, yes i know. Those two excercises are on different machines. I feel that they really isolate the tricep. After my workout my triceps felt blasted so i feel it was successful. As time goes on i'll add another excercise, then i'll add more weight of course. Again this is a beginning point to see where am at, and i will be adjusting in the upcoming workouts.

Honestly i'm tired of writing hopefully this is a good start with the log. I'm really not that good as these but i'm trying to be as descriptive as i can. If theres any questions, anything more you wanna know, or if you have input, by all means lemme here it. I'm always open to ideas suggestions and of course COMPLIENTS. Just saying. Here are my stats as of Day 1 along with a couple of pics. Thanks for reading this long post, lol:

25yrs
5'7
167lbs
13-14%BF?

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## jc95605

*June 7th*
Workout Day 2
Cycle Day 3

Weight from 167lbs to 170lbs

Ok first I'll talk about the compounds and then i'll move onto the excercises.

Ok, since injecting my balls kinda hurt when their not glowing, lol. Its not real bad pain just noticable. Kind of like the way you feel about an hour after you get kicked in the balls. Bad times. Today at the gym I did biceps and abs. I was gonna do back too but i didn't do enough research on excercies. I know check minus. I gotta say I felt pretty pumped up. Alot like when i took dbol . I'm assuming thats the tbol i feel. I know tbol doesn't bloat like dbol but their from the same parent compound so i would assume they feel similar. The ball pain/discomfort i'm assuming is from the test. Another thing i have to note is that my endurance was higher today, had more stamina. My muscles didn't feel tired longer. Heres a look at what i did today:

Hammer Curls: 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10
Alternate Bicep curls: 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10
Cable curls (left arm only): 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10
Cable curls (lbs each arm) 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10
Knee Raises: 25, 25, 25
Combined Crunch (machine): 40lbsx20,40lbsx20,40lbsx20
Ab Crunches (Ab roller machine): 20, 20, 20

This was a pretty short workout. Now for the weird stuff. After the bicep curls i wasn't tired. I usually am. The reason why i think thats weird is because I just switched to those excercises about 2 workouts ago at 20lbs. Last workout i went up to 25lbs, and now today i wasn't tired with 25lbs? Its impossible that i'm seeing strength gains already. I mean i did 2 injections each at 250mgs of test e on the same day theres no way, or is there? I kept going, and started on the cable curls. I still wasn't tired, so, as you can see i added another set. Still wasn't exhausted. I think its possible to move up to 50lbs each arm. I might do another workout b4 i do that, but it shouldn't take longer than that. Now i didn't it was possible for me to notice results this soon, even while frontloading. It just so happens that i found a test e cycle that somebody frontloaded. Wouldn't you know it, after I start my log. I never win. Anyway, That person said that he "felt the test kick in the beginning of the 2nd week." Well, assuming thats true could i be feeling it kick in already? Maybe cuz I frontloaded/doubled the test, and taking tbol with it its noticably faster? What do you guys think? Any opinions on that? I think its possible because my weight already jumped 3lbs in 3 days? Usually ppl that don't frontload a 500mgs a week cycle gained 5 or 6lbs at 15days. I read that on 4 different ppl. I'm gained alot faster, is that due to the added test or the tbol? Maybe both? I'm gonna hold off on the adex but that bottle is looking better and better. Anyway I need some opinions on the questions i asked. Please give me some input. Thats all i can think of now. All and all i think ice cube was right when he said "Today Was a Good Day."

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## jc95605

*Today*

So what do you guys think? Think its possible for me to notice the test this quick. this will be the third day after i injected my first dose. I guess we'll really notice after monday when i inject again huh. I was just curious to see if this was possible or if i was losing my mind. 

One thing that i wanna note today is that i think the tbol is definately kicking in. I say that because a common side effect of tbol is lethargy. Well, I've been sleeping all day, lol. I just can't get any energy today. Normally in the morning when i go to school i take my caffine/ephedra, I didn't take it today but its usually not this big of a difference. Anyway tomorrow I should be injecting again and hopefully i'll get back from the doctors office early enough so i can go to the gym too. We'll see wish me luck

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## jc95605

*June 9th*

Well my doctor appointment lasted longer than it was supposed so now i have to go to the gym tomorrow. I'm thinking of swiching my workout back to chest/biceps/triceps. I feel that works better for me. The past few days i've been feeling bloated. Again i'm attributing this to the tbol. Now when i took dbol awhile back ago i felt similar. I chose tbol this time cuz its supposed to have lil to no bloating. Well, i'm blaming the tbol because it comes from the same parent compound as dbol so i think its possible. I thought i might have got sold dbol AGAIN! Today i felt bloated again but my stomach was flatter? I say that because whenever my weight moves i seem to notice it at my stomach right away. Today however it was flatter so maybe it is tbol. Anyway I still fell pumped up and can hardly wait to go to the gym tomorrow. I took my 2nd injection of test today of 500mgs. This will make it the 2nd 500mg test injection this week, so it'll be the last one for the first week. I know my size is getting bigger because i go to a auto tech school and we have to wear those collared workshirts. I really noticed it today that my arms couldn't fit in the damn shirt. I mean I was sitting in my chair and my sleeves looked like there were painted on! Is it possible that i gained muscle this quick or is it water? I'm leaning toward water. For those of you who've talked to me b4 no that I HATE bloating. So because of that i'm thinking of starting my adex. I wanna wait til the end of the week and see where my weight is and i'll determine whether or not its water weight or actually muscle. When i go to the gym tomorrow and gain another 3lbs in a total of 6lbs in 5 days you think i shbuld start the adex? I wanna keep the bloating down and build solid muscle. Looking for input. Thanks guys.

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## jc95605

Workout Day 3
Cycle Day 5

When I weighed myself today i was at 171lbs. Up another pound since last workout. Thats makes it a total weight gain of 4lbs. I'm sure this early in the game its the water retention so now we should see some lean gains hopefully. Today i did chest/bis/tris. I switched back to this rountine, i just like it better. All and all the excercises seemed easier. First i did chest for the dumbell flat bench i did 80lbs x 8 up 2 reps already. Ten is that magic number, once i hit that i move up in weight. At this rate it'll be next workout! The other chest excercises seemed about the same. As for my biceps they seem to be getting bigger. Today was the 2nd or 3rd time i used a 25lbs dumbell for my hammer curls and alternate curls. This too felt easier. I was moving the weight faster. However because of that on my 2nd set i kinda pulled the side of my bicep a lil. Nothing that bad, but just enough for me to feel it. I should be good by next workout. Anyway I think I'll do my bicep rountine one more time b4 i move up in weight. I can hardly wait. I wanna push the weight up but as we all know if we do it too early we could pull a muscle and put us out of comission, and we can't have that while on cycle now can we?

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## jc95605

Ok sorry, i haven't been updating my log but i got sick. Wouldn't you know it? Figure a week after i start my cycle i get sick. At first i thought it was a allergic reaction to the new meds i got but it turn out it was a cold. I've been trying to OD on vitamin C these past couple of days. I've been taking about 5,000gs of vitamin C and i feel alot better. I'm gonna keep drowning myself with vit C and hopefully i can go to the gym tomorrow and have a decent workout. Even with being sick i do look more cut and harder. I dunno if this is contributed to the test or the tbol, either way who cares! Its working!

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## 92whitelx

I would say you are feeling the tbol right now, not the Test

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## jc95605

I didn't think the tbol would kick in this early. Maybe its working faster because i frontloaded the test? I dunno but now we should start seeing some gains. When i feel better i'm going for it! Me being out of the gym while on cycle really pisses me off hopefully i can make up for it. Thanks for your input 92whitelx.....Civic?


YA!!! Lucky Number 400! About time.

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## jc95605

*June 15th*
Workout Day 5
Cycle Day 10

Weight from 167lbs to 174lbs as of today.

First of all doing the math i'm about a week and a half into my cycle and i feel great. I'm still getting over my cold too. Here was my workout i did today. Keep in mind the excercises in red are new advancements.

Flat db bench: 60lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 80lbsx9, 85lbsx7
Incline pec-dec flys (machine): 90lbsx10, 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10
Decline bench (machine): 150lbsx10, 150lbsx10, 150lbsx10,150lbsx10
Db hammer curls: 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10 
Alternate bicep curls: 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10
Tricep pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10
Tricep pulldown (triangle attachment): 45lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Ok now we get to talk about it. Like i've posted before i've been sick for the past 3days or so, so basically that means i've been sitting on the couch on my ass fighting for life. It pisses me off when ppl (myself especially) get sick while on cycle cause i kind of feel cheated in a way. So, because of that when i somehow had the energy to go to the gym today i assumed my strength would go down, and that i would have to hit the weights harder for the time off i've had from being sick. In my amazement most of my exercises went up as you can see. I can't explain this. I was shocked, actually still am. Could it be the test is kickin in already, or is it the tbol? Was the 3lbs i gained these past few days from fat, bloat, or muscle? Well according to the information that i read on frontloading test (i can give you the link if you want it) my test should be at 96% effectiveness, for lack of a better term. Then looking onto my gains today, and with the 4days i took off from the gym i'm pretty sure its kicked in now. I'm thinking those 3lbs are muscle gains (at least I hope so). Guess that posting was right huh? I think this is incrediable especailly considering i'm only 10days into my cycle (1.5 weeks). As of now my plan is to run the cycle 12wks, i'm considering running it for 14wks, but we'll see where my supplies are at that point. I also plan on posting updated pics in about a week maybe two to get some feedback. Thanks again for reading and any feedback is greatly appreicated.

JJ

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## jc95605

*June 21st*
Cycle Day 16

Ok I know i haven't been writing in the log and alot of you are anxiously awaiting for the updates but you wouldn't believe what happened. Last thursday (19th) when i went to the gym I pulled a damn muscle. I had just started my workout and i was doing the flat db bench. I was on the superset (85lbs) and when i went to lift up weight for some reason i used my legs instead of my arms and shoulders. At first it didn't hurt it was just there in the back ground, so i finished the set. 85lbsx8, i went up a rep too. I felt I could of done more but my shoulder was starting to bother me and i didn't wanna push it too hard and hurt my shoulder again (previous injury). Anyway when i got up and walked to the pec-dec machine thats when i started to hurt. The way the bench is i was right where the pulled muscle was. So I decided to leave then. I'd rather leave the gym with a hurt muscle rather than try and get thru it while hurt and probably tear something. I plan on going tomorrow and trying again. I feel like i'm ready.

One thing that i wanted to note is that my chest and arms feel harder. I'm thinking that the tbol still. I looked in the mirrior today and noticed that my arms were shaped different. Different as in bigger and more defined, which i was really happy about. I didn't expect because of last thursday's injury i left the gym early, I didn't even get to my arm workout, so the size that i'm feeling is from the last workout about a week ago now. How awesome is that. Also my chest is starting to shape up i believe, especially the lower chest. I'll workout another week and upload some new pics to get some feedback.

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## uncgboro

keep up the log. Good improvements. Keep them in red just like that, it is easy to see the increases.

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## jc95605

Thank you, will do.

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## jc95605

*June 22nd*
Cycle Day 17
Workout Day 6

Ok i'm not counting the last workout as a workout day because i had to leave. Now with that being said heres what happened today. Again anything new is highlighted in red:

Flat db bench: 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 85lbsx8
pec-dec flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10
Decline bench (machine): 150lbsx10, 150lbsx10
Hammer Curls: 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10
Alternate Bicep Curls: 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10
Cable Curls: 40lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 40lbsx10
Cable Curls (left-arm only): 30lbsx10, 30lbsx8, 30lbsx8
Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10
Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10

Ok as usual i start with the flat db bench. When i was doing the 85lbs last time is when i pulled my muscle, well no problems today! When i hit 8reps i felt as if i could do more so i went for it. Well, my ind wanted to but my shoulder didn't needless to say i hit failure so i'm still gonna say i did 8 reps instead of 9. The 9th rep wasn't clean so i won't count that. So because my shoulder gave way on that last rep and i was hurting. Not bad enough to leave but noticable. On the the decline bench machine is when i noticed it again. My shoulder was hurting pretty good with that excercise, so because of that i only did 2 sets on that excercise. I wanted to save some for the arms because last time i didn't get to do any arm excercises. Again because my shoulder was hurting it made the hammer curls interesting, lol. Like i said i wasn't gonna leave like i had to last time. I felt cheated cuz i couldn't do arms last time so i was sure in hell gonna do it today. I managed to get thru all 3 sets, i had to take a lil longer break in between than usual but i did it and didn't lose any strength. So that was awesome! The alternate curls went fine. Last time i workouted my arms i didn't do cable curls, so this time i threw them in. I even pushed a lil harder and lifted 50lbs, a first. I could probably do sets of those at 7reps but today i was doing 10reps. I think i might switch it around a lil and lift it at 50lbsx7 for 3 sets. As we all know more weight and less reps leads to building size. I think my arms are toned pretty good so i kinda wanna focus my attention on building size now, hence the hammer curls, i hear those really help for building size thats why i swtiched to that. Any input on this? I would appreciate it. My tricep excercises went on fine.

Like i said last time my arms and chest have been feeling harder. Well during and after my workout today my arms felt huge, it was great! I was kinda curious to see if they grew, they usually don't feel this big. If that makes any sense. Anyway after my workout and protein shake i measure my arms. Today i measured 15.5", a .25" improvement over when i started just over 3wks ago. Not bad. My goal is to get them to 16.5", i dunno if thats possible or not with a 13wk cycle but i'm gonna go for it. Somebody else on this website reported a 1.75" gain in his arms with a 12wk 500mgs test e cycle only. So i think its feasible. What you guys think? Also my weight is back up to 173lbs. Now thats with the clen too, about 80-120mcgs ed. So i'm pretty sure the weight i am gaining is muscle and not water. I still don't feel any bloating. I'm gonna try and go this week to get my bf% tested. Any feedback is greatly invited and appreciated, please make it constructive. I'll be posting a new pic next week for you guys to critique.

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## T_Own

gl with it. i kinda got lost in reading and started quickly skimming, but wouldnt it be better to spread out your workouts a little more and focus more on one or two muscles a day? 

sounds good though, too bad with the rough first injection attempt

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## jc95605

Ya i can see that. Next time I can spread the workout a lil wider making them easier to read. Ya I see your point to do 2 muscle groups a day. It would be more benefical. I've tried it b4 and i like this better. I have a hard enough time going to the gym as it is. My schedule is kinda random so i go when i can. I try to go at least e2d, more if possible. Oh and since the first injection I haven't had any problems. Actually i was thinking of trying the quad. Is it hard to get thru. Seems like i would be injected right into the muscle so it would be kinda hard to push thru, I dunno just thinking right now. Thank you for the input and keep it coming.

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## jc95605

*June 26th*
Workout Day 7
Cycle Day 21
Weight 172.5lbs

Ok alot happened today and i'll try and cover it all. First off I'll put down what i did today. As always i'll put the changes in red.

Flat bb bench: 135lbsx10, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx5

Pec-Dec Fly: 90lbsx10, 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10

Decline bench (machine): 150lbsx10, 150lbsx10, 150lbsx10

Hammer Curls: 30lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx7

Alternate Curls: 30lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx7

Cable Curls: 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10

Cable Curls (left-arm only): 30lbsx10,30lbsx10, 30lbsx7

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 70lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (Triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Ok lets look at this further. First off as you can see i switched the first excercise back to barbell and i can honestly say i like db better. Going back to the barbell kinda hurt my shoulder again. I didn't wanna push too hard and not have anything left for arms so i pushed myself but i wasn't gonna kill myself if that makes any sense. I guess you can say i'm more than disappointed in that. I expected to get some gain, i mean something. The most i benched when using a bb was 245lbs. I'm looking to do more, hopfully my shoulder is too.

On a good note it seems like my arms are still developing. Their turning out pretty good. Since starting the cycle my arms have gotten .25" bigger and are alot more toned and cut. So it would seem that the cycle is working on my arms but not really my chest, i'll get back to this later. Since my arms are getting cut up pretty good, I decided today that i'm gonna start to change my goals on my arms. As you can see i added weight and went down in reps. I think their cut up pretty good, now i'm gonna go after size. So from now on i'm gonna push the weight up and the reps down and work on size.

As for my chest i'm simply disappointed. Its not gaining the way i want it too. Now i have a couple ideas because of this. One i'm doing the excercises wrong. I think this is less likely cuz my arms are getting bigger and i'm using the same theroies for those. I know each muscle develops different and different speeds but i think i know what it might be. Ok....a few days ago i started a thread on clen . My question was *can taking clen while on cycle hinder gains?*  The majority (75%ish) said that taking clen on cycle either stopped their gains or they lost slight strength! Can you believe this crap. Now i don't think i put this in the log but around wk 2.5-3 i restarted clen. My goal was to build the muscle while burning fat, what everybody wants right. Well if you look at my weight entries i'm not gaining at all in fact i'm slowly losing, so the theroies that i got from my thread seem to be hold true. *Because of this i'm stopping clen immediately!*
On a slightly different matter I finally got my bf% measured. i got it measure at a health food store using the caliper method, i know its not the most accurate but its gonna give me an idea. Well according to that my bf% is 16.5%. Pissed doesn't even begin to describe it. Before this cycle i did 2 cycles of DNP so i think its lower. That DNP works man!

[I]*So because of all this i was thinking about adding tren.[/*I] I wanna take it to get some of the strength i lost with taking the clen. Also you always hear of the insane strength gains so of course i want those. Also tren leans you out. Its not uncommon to lose 2%bf on a 6wk cycle of tren, so thats another reason. Any please tell me your thought about this. I'm looking at adding 400mgs of Tren E ew for 5-6wks. Because of time constraits i of course would frontload it. I love frontloading i don't see why you wouldn't, especially cuz of these long esters.

Thank you for sticking with me this far, lol. I took some pics today and i woud like to get some feedback on them. Please compare these to when i started and give me some feedback. I'm open to critism as long as its constuctive. Thanks again for reading.

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## thetank

nice improvement man, i see a notable difference for sure. you look way fuller, and just bigger all around. sweet log man, ile be following for sure! keep it up brutha.
peace
tank

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## jc95605

Really? I can't tell. It feels like i'm wasting my time, but if you can tell i guess its working. Thanks i appreciate the input.

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## manwitplans

Well I also see difference.
Are you using any drugs to combat water, gyno and such?

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## jc95605

No not yet. I have adex on hand in case i need it. For the past 1.5 wks i've been using clen like i said in my last post. I'm thinking the clen is hold me back from getting gains. At least i thought it was, but you guys can see a difference so i guess its working. It might also be helping with the bloat, i'm not sure. Anyway as of this morning i'm stopping the clen and i'm gonna run the rest of the cycle w/o an additional stim. Thank you for your input.

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## jc95605

Anybody wanna comment on the Tren E idea. I can't seem to decide whether or not i need to do it or not. On one end i wanna run the rest of the cycle using only test e just to see how far i can push it. Other the other end i know if i use the tren i'm gonna get insane strength gains and lose 2% in bf, give or take. I can't hearing that you only keep about 20-30% of the strength gains. I'm assuming you keep the bf off. Any ideas or comments on the Tren. Please keep the input coming i appreciate the feedback.

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## jc95605

*June 30th*
Workout Day 8
Cycle Day 25/Wk 4.5
Weight 177.5lbs

Before we get into it, I got a couple of notes. First of all if you notice my last workout i switched the first excercise from db bench to bb bench. Man i've been pumped up ever since, it was awesome! My chest looked pumped and cut ever since the last workout. I'm gonna chalk this one up to switching the excercise. Since it worked so well last time, I figured what the hell, i'm gonna do it again. So today I switched that again along with a couple of other things. As always the changes are in red.

DB Flat bench: 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 85lbsx10

Pec-Dec Fly: 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 7, 10

Decline DB bench (machine): 45lbsx10, 45lbsx10, 45lbsx10

Hammer Curls: 35lbsx7, 35lbsx7, 35lbsx7, [I](left-arm only: 35lbsx7), [/I]
40lbsx7

Alternate Curls: 35lbsx7, 35lbsx7, 35lbsx7, [I](left-arm only: 35lbsx7), [/I] 40lbsx7

Cable Curls: 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 90lbsx10, 90lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment) 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10

Well as you can see we switched it up a lil. Other than what i already told you the next note i wanna say is take a look at my weight at the top of this post. See that, up 5lbs in 4 days! My diet hasn't changed much at all. So i'm pretty sure thats muscle growth. Also going to what i said before, that my chest has felt pumped up and cut since the last workout, guess cuz it was growing huh?

As you can see we hit 10 reps with 85lbs dumbells. My policy is once i hit 10reps i move up in weight. I wasn't 100% liking my form today so i think i'll do it one more workout and see where i'm at.

Anyway with that being said i got some input on a new lower chest excercise, the chest dips. I gotta tell you they kicked my ass, lol. I dunno what the normal amount of reps is but the 10 reps i did was enough for me. I'm not happy with just doing 10 but this was my first time doing this excercise, so i'm taking this as my starting point/foundation. It'll only go up from here right. Also this killed my shoulders, which leads me to believe that either A: I did the excercise/motions wrong, or B: My shoulders are weak. I'm leaning towards option B. So in the near future you'll see more work towards the shoulders.

I also changed the decline excercise. Its marked it red above because its a different machine and different motion. This one i did today was independent from each other, in other words it was like a dumbell excercise instead of the barbell like the last one. This excercise seemed to target more of the lower chest unlike the last one. I think maybe because it was a different, kinda like what happened with the db to bb flat bench.

Another thing that i noticed was that i had some trouble with the left arm on the hammer and alternate curls around the 3rd and 4th set. You'll see more work on the left side in the future as well. _Any suggestions to get that side stronger like the right sdie? Right now i'm just gonna do less weight and more sets on that side, any ideas?_

After that brutal bicep excercise i move to triceps and again i moved up in weight with the rope attachment. This was awesome. My tris felt ripped. By the time i got to the triangle attachment i was tired and all i had left was enough for 55lbs, which isn't bad. Last workout i moved up to 60lbs, but because with the rope i moved up i didn't have it here. It was like i just switched where i went up in weight. _I'm still open for suggestions for new tricep excercises._

Overall i'm pleased with the workout today since i pushed every muscle group harder today. It was either in weight or sets. But it was done. 

Also i think because i felt so pumped up (more so than usual) since the last workout and my weight and strength went up so fast i think the test is "kicking in." *Today we're exactly at wk 4.5 which seems to be the norm for when test e kicks in. What you guys think? Also still taking feedback on my newest pics. As always any constructive feedback will be appreciated.*

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## XXGOTTIXX

bro sounds like your doing great!! exactly 4.5 weeks ... it could possible be your test! get ready and enjoy the ride!

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## RoadToRecovery

Dips are awesome dude. Great calisthenic exercise. Once you get comfortable with em, you can opt to throw on a weight belt and do weighted dips.

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## jc95605

Ya i was suggested weighted dip but because this was my first time i went without the weight. They feel like they could be pretty hardcore, at least they felt that way. My plan is to work, and get my reps up then add a weight belt. What is the "normal" amount of reps ppl do with these anyway. If there is such a thing. And thank you for your input.

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## stpete

Lookin good bro. Keep up the good work my man. Weighted dips are awesome and they're a staple in my workouts, but i always mix em up. Heavy one week, high reps the next. I think that's the key. Keep your body guessing as to what's coming next.

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## Obro

> Ya i was suggested weighted dip but because this was my first time i went without the weight. They feel like they could be pretty hardcore, at least they felt that way. My plan is to work, and get my reps up then add a weight belt. What is the "normal" amount of reps ppl do with these anyway. If there is such a thing. And thank you for your input.


Hey, following yer log Bro.
If I recall correctly perfectbeast does dips with 50kgs.
I love em but I have no dip bars here in Thailand. I only do them when I go working overseas in the gym there. I keep meaning to make up something for my home gym here.
Keep it up bro.
Obro

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## jc95605

So your the one following my log. I appreciate it and the input. More is better when it comes to input.

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## gibferno

I'm enjoying your log, man. Keep it up.

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## AcePowerZ

Are you working out your legs at all? working your legs will help with your gains. also it just seams like you may not be working out enough, but it could just be me. Work them legs bro

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## jc95605

Ya i hurt my knee awhile back ago. Last time i tried to push myself with it i hurt it again, so i'm taking it easy on it. By next cycle it'll definately be ready. It be ready soon but like i said last time i pushed it i hurt it again so i wanna be careful with it. Ya I was thinking about that and i think you right, i think i should go more too. I think i'm doing ok with chest and arms which you can obviously see but theres always something that happens on shoulders day. Anyway i'm gonna try to go more cuz i actually do agree with you. Also, another thing. *AcePower*, that kinda pissed me off that you caught that, so the next post is deicated to you, lol.

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## jc95605

*July 3rd*
Workout Day 9
Cycle Day 28/Wk 5
Weight 180lbs

Before i get into it thanks again to AcePower for giving me the motivation to go last night. It really helped, it was last piece of the puzzle that i needed to go.

Ok, recently i've been making a few threads asking about different excercises, what excercises work best for ppl. I just wanna thank you guys for your input cuz i actually use. You will see it cuz as always the changes are in red.

Flat DB bench: 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 85lbs x10

Pec-Dec Fly: 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10

Decline DB Machine: 45lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10,10,7

Hammer Curls: 35lbsx7, 45lbsx7, 35lbsx7, (35lbsx7 left arm only)

Alternate Curls: 35lbsx7, 45lbsx7, 35lbsx7, (35lbsx7 left arm only)

Cable Curls: 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7

JM Press: 30lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Lying DB extension: 25lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Tricep extension (rope attachment): 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10

*One thing i wanna point out is my weight, up to 180lbs!* Thursday (July 3rd) is wk 5 exactly. Thats a total weight gain so far of 13lbs, and were not even half way thru the cycle. I'm still going, i'm anxious to see how far i can push the envelope.

Ok the chest workout was pretty much the same so i don't wanna spend that much time on it. *I did the 85lbs dumbells 10x again. After i did them my shoulders were hurting pretty good so now i'm kinda unsure if i should go up in weight; what do you guys think?* I did the dips again and changed my form more in the shape of a crescent. I don't see how this helps chest, it kills my shoulder everytime. I need alot of work in my shoulders tho so i'll keep doing em. 

My bicep routine was awesome as usual. As you can see i tried to have my last 2 sets with 40lb db, but it wasn't happening, lol. I tried tho! After those db excercies my arms felt blasted, I love it! Cable curls were great at 50lbs those might move up soon, we'll see.

Ok the triceps. There was alot of change with these this time wasn't there. First one i tried was the JM press. This was one the excercises that i got alot of feedback on. I don't really like how it went at all. I think my form might have been wrong. After reading about them i think my hands were too far apart. _How far are you hands when you do the JM Press?_

Next I tried the DB overhead tricep extension. Between this and the JM, i think these both are close to the skull crushers, so i left them out. This excercise i think was alot better. As I bought the db up tho it felt like i was using one arm more than the other a lil too much. I think cuz of the way you place both your hands on the db. _Next time i think i'll try skull crushers with the EZ bar, what you guys think of that?_
One thing that I would like to get some input on is how i can strengthen my left arm. Right now i'm just doing an extra set with that arm but i wanted to hear some ways that you guys even them out. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks again guys for everything.

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## binder

question:

you said you are frontloading 1000mg of test e but you said you did 2 250mg shots in 1 day. that would only be 500mg of frontload.

did i miss something?

i'm going to be doing 500mg per week test e and i was considering front loading 1000mg also, but that would shorten my cycle by 1 week. i would be at 9 weeks instead of 10 so i'm not sure about it yet. still pondering if going 1 more week would be worth the quick jump by frontloading. i'm still sceptical that i'll even notice or use that frontload since biologically it takes longer to get hte levels up so i'm afraid that first 500mg half-life will be wasted.

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## jc95605

You know like i said in the log something different is happening this past week, which would be wk 4-5. That is usually when test e kicks in. So i really didn't notice anything b4 that. Well i did but i'm contributing that to the tbol since that kicks in alot quicker. In answer to your question, i took 2 250mgs shots in one day. My test is in 250mgs amps, so thats why i had to take 2. The 2 amps equaled 500mgs for each day, that twice a week, equaling 1000mgs for that week. Are you going to be doing a test e only cycle? Whats your cycle look like, pm me.

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## binder

i've just decided to make it straight test E. i was going to kick it with dbol then finish with winny but i changed my mind for right now. i'm just thinking the most effective way of running it for what i want.

and by front loading 1000mg i'll be shooting up one time, 1000mg. splitting a few days apart doesn't make it a full 1000mg frontload which is what i thought you meant. i was confused.

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## jc95605

Ya i did 500mgs x 2 for the first week. I think its a good idea x-ing out those orals. I don't like dbol but more importantly i think those two orals are a lil too close together. I would give my liver a lil more time to recover, but thats me. Thanks again for your input.

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## binder

i inject winny.

dbol always worked great for me, but i just don't feel like messing with it this round.

and they woudn't be together. first 4 weeks would have been dbol, last 4 weeks winny. there would have been time between them with only test. i'm just doing test only for this cycle though. gonna let the body rest off the other stuff for a while

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## jc95605

I've been thinking of injecting winnie on my next cycle. We'll see how this one goes. but my next one i wanna do a hardcore cutting cycle.

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## jc95605

I know its late but i just had an idea. What do you guys think of me starting the adex? I don't really feel bloated but i wonder if theres a few extra pounds of water. I'm curious to see what would happen if i were to take .5mgs of a week. What you guys think? I've been gaining pretty good as you can see. Am up by 13lbs! But i wonder if thats all muscle or is it water? What you think?

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## binder

I would steer clear of it. If your estrogen isnt out of control i would leave it alone. It's show through observation research that estrogen is essential to growth. You wanna keep it just below the out of control (side effects) side. Water retention is good for bulk. It cushions the joints and protects you during heavy lifts. Worry about it PCT or if you're on a cut cycle.

and about the winny, it's nice injecting to help with dosage and keeping as much out of the liver as possible, but it's painful as hell. you've been forewarned. lol. it'll destroy you as soon as you inject and it's super sore for a couple days. it got rough doing every day injections of that shit. glutes hurt the least though.

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## jc95605

> I would steer clear of it. If your estrogen isnt out of control i would leave it alone. It's show through observation research that estrogen is essential to growth. You wanna keep it just below the out of control (side effects) side. Water retention is good for bulk. It cushions the joints and protects you during heavy lifts. Worry about it PCT or if you're on a cut cycle.
> 
> and about the winny, it's nice injecting to help with dosage and keeping as much out of the liver as possible, but it's painful as hell. you've been forewarned. lol. it'll destroy you as soon as you inject and it's super sore for a couple days. it got rough doing every day injections of that shit. glutes hurt the least though.


I heard that too about the estrogen. I'm really not wanting to inject the winnie since i keep hearing its painful. If i take the winnie tabs their pretty liver toxic so i'm screwed there. Can't seem to win huh, lol. Thanks for your input.

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## binder

no problem.

fyi: i chose the injection over the liver problems. i hurt but what in life doesn't hurt?

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## jc95605

*July 6th*
Workout Day 10
Cycle Day 31
Weight 181lbs

Ok as always the changes are in red.

BB Bench: 135lbsx10, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx6, 245lbsx3

Pec-Dec Fly: 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10

*Decline DB (machine): 45lbsx10, 45lbsx10

Hammer Curls: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Cable Curls: 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10

JM Press: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Lying DB Extension: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10

Ok well as you can see I gained another pound. I hit the clen a lil this past weekend, ya know holiday and all, kinda slipped on my diet. But I can tell the clen burned the excess fat i ate. You know i think its awesome but i'm at the point that i can tell exactly how my body is reacting when I induce clen. Awesome!

_BB Bench_-Anyway I switched back to the barbell. Once upon a time i was able to bench 265lbs. Now maxing my bench isn't the goal of this cycle but i would like to get it to where it was. The max bench seems to be the number that most uneducated ppl go off of so i might as well get that up a lil. From now on I plan on switching from BB to DB every other workout. Today I pushed a lil on the barbell hence the superset of 245lbs, because of that my shoulder hurt a lil, I'll more about that a lil later.

_Decline DB machine_-As you can see I only did 2 sets of this excercise. After I pushed myself on the BB bench my shoulders hurt. Because of that when I started the decline DB machine they were killing me. It seemed that excercise agervated my shoulders and caused them to hurt so i decided to stop it early to save some for later.

_Chest Dips_-The next change I made was when i did the chest dips. Like I've said before my shoulders were killing me so i had to wait until the pain went away so i could do the dips. I have to say this time they didn't hurt as much. But I have to admit i don't get it. I don't see how these strength the lower chest. *Can anyone comment on their personal experience doing this excercise?*

Thats pretty much it for today. Nothing big. The only things that i wanna brag about is that my weight is up another pound and I pushed myself on the BB bench up to 245lbs. Still building and getting bigger, slowly but surely. *I'm thinking of doing clen either during my pct or after to cut up. When do you guys think I should do the clen?*

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## mauler

i do dips with every chest day to work lower pecs. keep your chin down and lean forward and focus on using your chest more than your tris. my chest feels like its going to explode afterwards. i usually only do 3 sets of 8-12 weighted with 55-65 lbs

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## jc95605

Something's not right, my shoulders are torn up, but not really my chest. It is a lil. When i do them i look down towards and put my legs forward so my body is in the shape of a crescent. I'm thinking maybe my shoulder are just extremely weak. To fault of my own i haven't given them as much attention as I should of so now i'm paying for it. But what you think of the form? Sounds like i'm doing it right?

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## jc95605

*July 7th*
Workout Day 11
Cycle Day 32
Weight 181lbs

Finally, Finally I got to work on my damn shoulders. It seems everytime i wanna go work on my shoulders something comes up! Anyway, even tho I had to study for a test i just left and went and hit em. I'm getting kinda pissed off that when i do my chest workout my shoulders keep hurting. That means one of two things. A: My form is wrong, or B: My shoulders are too weak. Like I've said b4 i'm leaning towards option B. I can't even remember what i did last time for shoulders and abs and even if i did its been so long that i can't really call this a advancement more like a new baseline. So today nothing will be marked in red as i'll use this as a new baseline.

DB Military Press: 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Front Lateral Raise: 20lbsx10, 15lbsx10, 15lbsx10

Smith Machine Shrugs: 50lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 90lbsx10, 100lbsx10

Hanging Leg Raises: 25, 23,15

Combinaton situp (machine): 22, 22, 22

Ab machine: 25, 25, 25

DB military press was pretty good. Felt a good burn on my shoulders. I liked it and i think i'll contine at that weight maybe even move it all up to 35lbs. For some reason the 35lbs seems to work with pretty much everything for me. Good times.

The Front Lateral Raise sucked. Thats the one that hurt my shoulders. I dunno what specific muscles/parts it works but i think thats definately the weak part. I even had to go down to 15lbs! Well.......thats just unacceptable! In the future i'm gonna be blasting this specific excercise cuz this is obviously the weak point. *Can anybody tell me what specific muscles/parts this excercise works?* 

With the shrugs i was looking for that sweet spot. Guess it was 100lbs, go figure. Anyway now that i know what it is, this will be the new baseline.

The AB workout was pretty good all and all. On the hangine leg raise i just got tired near the end, lil rusty i guess. Don't worry guys, it'll get better. The rest of them were all pretty good. The AB machine/roller was a little easier than i thought it would be. I think next time i'll add a lil weight to em. *Also i'm thinking next time i'll take my camera phone and take some pictures of these machines that i'm talking about to give you guys a better idea of what i'm talking about. What you guys think of that?*

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## binder

lean forward for more cheston the dips.

and i'm not sure what you mean by "front lateral raise" there are either front shoulder raises or lateral shoulder raises. front work front delt and trap, lateral raise is medial (lateral) head of deltoid with traps.

you said your shoulders hurt. are burnt out or did you injure them? with the weights you are doing, no offense meant, your shoulders are way behind. your bench is good and your other stuff sounds good but your shoulder workout sounds weak. if you have injury then i understand, but if you mean they hurt because they burn out when doing chest then that means your chest is stronger than your shoulders. by your weights, it sounds like your shoulders are laggin your chest so they'll burn out on a chest day faster.

i'm doing 205 on bench, but my overhead press is 65lb db's 4 sets of 10. my shoulders are stronger than my chest, but for benching 245 i would think your shoulders would be stronger. i would try to bring the shoulders back up to speed. make sure you're doing some rear delt workouts too so they arne't oddly shaped. front raise, lat raise then rear delt raise on shoulder days along with overhead press. that will target the full shoulder.

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## jc95605

> lean forward for more cheston the dips.
> 
> and i'm not sure what you mean by "front lateral raise" there are either front shoulder raises or lateral shoulder raises. front work front delt and trap, lateral raise is medial (lateral) head of deltoid with traps.
> 
> you said your shoulders hurt. are burnt out or did you injure them? with the weights you are doing, no offense meant, your shoulders are way behind. your bench is good and your other stuff sounds good but your shoulder workout sounds weak. if you have injury then i understand, but if you mean they hurt because they burn out when doing chest then that means your chest is stronger than your shoulders. by your weights, it sounds like your shoulders are laggin your chest so they'll burn out on a chest day faster.
> 
> i'm doing 205 on bench, but my overhead press is 65lb db's 4 sets of 10. my shoulders are stronger than my chest, but for benching 245 i would think your shoulders would be stronger. i would try to bring the shoulders back up to speed. make sure you're doing some rear delt workouts too so they arne't oddly shaped. front raise, lat raise then rear delt raise on shoulder days along with overhead press. that will target the full shoulder.



Hurt as in burnt out. I completely agree about the shoulders, I think their just too weak also. when i was training year ago i didn't know half as much as i know now, meaning that i didn't work out my shoulder that much if at all. i was only concerned with arms and chest cuz thats all ppl see. Isn't that stupid, lol. Anyway its caught up to me now.

What i mean by front shoulder raises is that their the same as a lateral raise i just raise the DB straight forward instead. Thats the excercise that really hurt so thats probably the weakest part. What kind of rear delts excercises are there. I got a lil confused with your posting.

Like I've said b4 i've been thinking about add 300mgs of TriTren w/T3. I'll use the tren to target and blast my chest and shoulders. What you think of that? I just can't seem to decide.

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## binder

well, i'm not sure about the tren . if you're already on a cycle i would probably just stay the course.

there are many rearl delt exercises. there are 3 parts to the deltoid: anterior (front), medial (side) and posterior (rear) heads. 

sit on a bench, grab a db in each hand, with your feet on the ground (sitting normal) lean forward so your chest is touching your thighs. grab the weights from the floor and lift them straight out. that will target the rear of your shoulder. 

you can do them standing with a cable fly machine too. grab the left cable with your right hand and right cable with your left hand. pull the cables so your hands are together in front of you. then without jerking your body open your arms until they are directly out from your shoulders (you should be standing like a cross or a t) then relax them slowly to bring them back to the front. 

you have to hit all 3 heads to have a balanced shoulder. your overhead press is your power exercise for the shoulder and i always do it first. the others are controled exercises used mostly for symmetry. they are best done as a strict movement with no cheating so you'll probably use a lighter weight and slightly higher reps (8-12 range). doing a high weight low rep will overstress the shoulder joint during those movements and very prone to shoulder injury. as your strength progresses you use higher weight, but i would watch ever doing sets that you can only knock out less than 8 reps. that's putting a lot of stress on the joints and ligaments due to leverage.

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## mauler

> Something's not right, my shoulders are torn up, but not really my chest. It is a lil. When i do them i look down towards and put my legs forward so my body is in the shape of a crescent. I'm thinking maybe my shoulder are just extremely weak. To fault of my own i haven't given them as much attention as I should of so now i'm paying for it. But what you think of the form? Sounds like i'm doing it right?


idontexactly know what you mean by cresent but yea, chin down, lean forward.
maybe your shoulders are weak, i never notice soreness or pain in my shoulders. only in my chest and tri mostly. just keep doing them,youll be surprised after a while how much youll gain.i sort of remember when i first started doing dips, it was really difficult until you get used to it

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## jc95605

Ok I'll keep doing them. Cause right now i think thats where i am.

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## AcePowerZ

Im just wandering are you lifting light because of strength issues or are you really that much of a pansy? Hit them weights and hit them hard I noticed that you were only doing DB military press. Hit the Barbell at about 150 10x if your benching 200 you can handle it trust me.

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## jc95605

> Im just wandering are you lifting light because of strength issues or are you really that much of a pansy? Hit them weights and hit them hard I noticed that you were only doing DB military press. Hit the Barbell at about 150 10x if your benching 200 you can handle it trust me.



Lol, it was the first time i did that excercise so basically i was seeing where i was at. I like what you said tho is that for motivation or what? lol. I think i'll treat the military press like the flat bench, meaning that i'll switch from BB to DB every week or so. Furthermore like we've been talking about i'm thinking my shoulders are weak. So the weight isn't gonna be as high as yours because my shoulders seem to be my weak spot.

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## jc95605

Sry it took so long but here are some pictures I took Thursday. Thursday was exactly 6wks in. Any constructive feedback is welcome and appreciated.

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## jc95605

*July 12th*
Cycle Day 37
Workout Day 12
Weight 178.5lbs

*As always the changes are in red. I'm putting the excercises in the exact order that i did them in so you might see a couple of repeats. Also i'm putting the left-arm only excercises in green so you can distinguish them a lil easier.

DB Flat bench: 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 85lbsx10, 90lbsx6

Pec-Dec Fly (Machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10

Alternating Curls: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 15lbsx10, 15lbsx15, 15lbsx20, 15lbsx12

Cable Curls: 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Skull Crushers (w/curl bar with handles): 35lbsx10, 45lbsx10, 45lbsx10

DB Tricep pullover: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (w/rope attachment): 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10 (I like the way it felt so i added one more for the road)

*Weight*-Ok first thing is first, weight. As you can see my weight went down a lil bit. Well recently i've been slippin on my diet. So whenever i would eat a "bad" meal i would follow it up with a clen to try and make up for my "mess-up." Well it looks like my diet wasn't that bad because the clen was pretty effective wasn't it. Also I've blamed clen for hindering my gains, but as you can see i moved up in weight on a couple of excercises. I do think i look a lil leaner too. My stomach is more defined so it might actually work. _Have a cycle that you add strength no size and loss fat, what you guys think?_

*DB bench*-Pretty happy about this one. As you can see i finally moved up in weight this time to 90lbs. As you can see i knocked out 6 reps on the first try. I was kinda surprised by that because when i sat down i felt pretty tired and didn't think i was gonna lift good today. I think 95lbs is right around the corner.

*Chest Dips*-Ahh yes the chest dips. These are a pretty popular excercise in my log. There has been alot of ppl that have been telling me that these really work. As of today i've been saying they haven't really been working that well. When i would do them i would kill my shoulders and i would feel my triceps working. I attributed this to incorrect form. I've been getting feedback from some members (thank you again btw) on form and have been making changes. Well guys today i think i hit the sweet spot. Today when i did them i bent my chin down/looking at the floor (as always), then i used my abs to bring my legs kinda of up and forward. Also, i was bending at the waist this time instead of just leaning forward. Well the result i think was alot more of my body bending. This time when i did them it felt like my chest was exploding. Specificlly around the lower and outer chest. Right at set 2, my chest felt like it exploding outward and it was more cut. It actually felt like it was cut as hell. I think now i see what you guys are talking about. I think these are gonna stay around for awhile.

*Arms*-Ok this one i'm gonna combine and ask for some feedback. I made a thread and asked the best way to strengthen your weaker side. I didn't really get any reponses so i winged it. The stuff in green is what i did for my left arm today. I dropped the weight so i could do more sets. Again, i'm not sure if this is the best way to do it but i gave it a try. _Any feedback reguarding this is invited!_

*Skull crushers*-Alot of ppl have been telling me to do these and when i used to do them way back when i didn't think they were that effective. Well that was the case again today. I pushed up and i controlled it down to my neck. Something like a gutine bench, however you spell it. I did it that way because thats the way i felt the most burn with the curl bar last week. Well next time i think i'm gonna adjust my form and try to find the sweet spot like the chest dips.

Also this week i was supposed to get my body fat test with the water dunk tank. Well its a long story but basically i have to wait til monday. 

*Other*-Also I just wanted to note that its almost time to stop the tbol. I have about another 1.5-2wks i'm guesstimating. Also, I still havent decided about the Tren . Right now i'm leaning towards no since it looks like the clen is gonna work pretty good to lean me out and that was the main reason why i was wanting the tren, amongst others. Today i really notice my back breakout with acne. I dunno if this is normal this soon but its not gonna stop my cycle thats for sure. I was thinking about taking some ac****ane after pct. I know during pct i'm gonna break out in acne real bad so i'm expecting that later but not now. In either case i just wanted to note that. *I was also thinking about taking finastride after pct as well. Does any body have any experience doing this? Is finastride toxic or can i take it with the ac****ane?*  Thanks again guys for reading. Hope i hear so input from all of you.

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## Obro

Lookin' good dude. You're so much thicker than in your avvy. Time for a change?

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## jc95605

> Lookin' good dude. You're so much thicker than in your avvy. Time for a change?



U think? Where you see it at? I can only tell in my arms and i really haven't gone up that much it weight but their definately bigger. My goal was to have them grow 1.5-1.75". Haven't measured them recently but they were getting bigger last time. 

Ya i was thinking about updating the avatar too. But I need a pose. Some of these ones on here have kool poses and i can't think of one!

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## personaltrainermark

Keep it up! I can def. see some progress there.

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## Obro

You have the solution already because you said it. There are heaps of avatars on this forum with great poses. So just copy one that shows you off best. Everything is plagiarism bro. We just add our own touch to something that someone has done before. That's evoloution.

I like the lat spread from the back because that's my best muscle group but here's my favourite that gives the best overall impression You really have to concentrate on poping up the traps and then just lock the fk out of every other muscle group. (might change my avvy). - Changed

Keep it up man. I'm 4 weeks and 3 days into my Test E cycle so I'm only a couple of weeks behind you.

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## jc95605

Just now at 4wks huh. It's about to get fun for you.

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## 916casanova

You ever do any total body training? Like 4 compound movements and 2 single joint movements 3X a week? Superset with stability exercises or antagonistic muscle groups? Definately hit some squats and deadlifts.. Help your whole body grow in my opinion..

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## jc95605

*July 13th*
Workout Day 12
Cycle Day 38
Weight 179lbs

*As always the changes are in red.

BB Military Press: 65lbsx10, 85lbsx10, 95lbsx10

Front Lateral Raise: 20lbsx10, 20lbsx10, 20lbsx10

Smith Machine Shrugs: 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10, 120lbsx10

Hanging Leg Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combinaton situp (machine): 30lbsx20, 30lbsx20, 30lbsx20

Ab machine: 5lbsx20, 5lbsx20, 5lbsx20

*Weight*-Since yesterday I haven't taken any clen . I'm gonna attribute that to eating. I mean .5lbs is nothing to talk about. I just wanted to note that i stopped the clen all together. So if it was like the past, my weight should slowly start to move up again.

*BB Military Press*-Well i've gotten some crap to do these so today i figured what the hell. With this excercise i felt my upper chest and front of my shoulders burning; more so shoulders, it was awesome. When i did the DB version last week i just felt my shoulders. So the BB is more of a combination excercise and the DB more of isolation. In this case i like the BB better. I hit 2 muscles at the same time. I think recently i wrote in my log for the second half of the cycle i really wanna blast my chest and shoulders. Well this excercise definately helps with that.

*Front Lateral Raise*-As you can see I went up this week. Most notably I wasn't in any pain like last time. My shoulder weren't burning so bad that i had to stop like last time. Matter of fact they didn't feel that exhausted. I think i'll do this set 1, maybe 2 more times b4 i move to 25lbs. Like the BB Military Press this felt to work my upper chest front of the shoulders more. I think i'll keep this one as well.

*Shrugs*-Well like i said last time 100lbs i started to feel something. So today it would only make sense for me to start there. I was starting to feel a lil tired at the end there but i think i might be able to push it to 130lbs. We'll find out next time.

*Abs*-The main thing with the abs is that i was able to finish each set. Last time i had to finish at 23 or even 15 reps. Today i was able to knock out all 25. The combination situp machine was the same, just easier today than before. On the Ab machine/roller you can see i even added a 5lbs disc. I definately felt it this time.

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## AcePowerZ

Total motivation. I was just thinkning cause i Know my shoulders were and still are my weak point. I continued lifting heavy with them seeings how they can take the punishment. They got strong pretty quick lifting heavy.Then once they got some size from the heavy lifting i toned the weight down a little.

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## jc95605

> Total motivation. I was just thinkning cause i Know my shoulders were and still are my weak point. I continued lifting heavy with them seeings how they can take the punishment. They got strong pretty quick lifting heavy.Then once they got some size from the heavy lifting i toned the weight down a little.



Well like i mentioned in the log, my shoulders don't really hurt anymore when i do the chest dips. The DB raises are getting easier too. I'm gonna keep on em! Especially with the BB military press. I like that one.

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## binder

> Well like i mentioned in the log, my shoulders don't really hurt anymore when i do the chest dips. The DB raises are getting easier too. I'm gonna keep on em! Especially with the BB military press. I like that one.


are you pressing behind the head or in front? 

front will work more of the anterior delt along with upper chest due to the nature of the back being arched slightly. behind the head will be more of a lateral delt. both are great so switch them up between workouts. i feel that i can isolate my shoulders more with a behind the head BB press than a front BB press.

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## dwaynewade

i like push presses... you will be able to move more weight this way... practice form before engaging in heavy weight

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## jc95605

> are you pressing behind the head or in front? 
> 
> front will work more of the anterior delt along with upper chest due to the nature of the back being arched slightly. behind the head will be more of a lateral delt. both are great so switch them up between workouts. i feel that i can isolate my shoulders more with a behind the head BB press than a front BB press.



Last time i did in front of the head. On the machine/rack i was on i couldn't do behind. I'm still experimenting with the shoulders so i'll try behind the head and see how that feels. But reguarding what acepower said, i'm pretty sure my shoulders are my weak point. Like i said before for the reminder of the cycle i really wanna blast my chest and shoulders. These two groups are what i wanna see the most size and improvment from. 

I was also thinking that i might try and do the DB and BB military press on the same day since the DB seemed to really isolate the traps and the BB is more of a compound lift. What you guys think? Btw, i appreciate you guys's help finding the right excercises for my shoulders.

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## binder

> I was also thinking that i might try and do the DB and BB military press on the same day since the DB seemed to really isolate the traps and the BB is more of a compound lift. What you guys think? Btw, i appreciate you guys's help finding the right excercises for my shoulders.


you can do that if you like. I only do one per session though because with all the front, lateral, and rear raises i end up doing quite a few sets on the shoulders. i try to stay below 16 sets per muscle group in my workouts.

also, if you want the chest and shoulders to get bigger you should be hitting the squats, leg press and dead lift. You won't grow up top unless you all total body mass and the way to do that is to increase the legs.

my next build phase starts here in 2 weeks. I'm just doing straight power lifting and mostly concentrating on legs and back. I know once i add a few inches to my legs and strengthen my back then i'll be set to make some huge gains in my upper body.

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## AcePowerZ

What are you running for PCT? I rechecked the logs and didnt see anything on it in there.

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## jc95605

Well heres what i'm thinking for PCT as of now. I'm gonna start 10 days after last injection.

wk15=.25, .5, .5, .25, .25mgs of adex

wk15-17-50mgs ed of nolva & clomid

wk18=25mgs of nolva & clomid

Sry if thats confusing i tried to break it down for each week so you can see the changes. Still thinking about running clen during pct but i don't wanna lose any strength. I mean the point of pct is to keep most or all of your gains so i might wait til after pct, after my natty test is back. If you guys have feedback about my pct, i'm all ears. My supplies are in the mail now but i still can get more if need be.

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## AcePowerZ

full time pct there bro. Im running the same cycle minus the tbol. and running adex at .25 4 weeks and clomid @ 100/50/50/50.
I will start cycle this monday.

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## jc95605

> full time pct there bro. Im running the same cycle minus the tbol. and running adex at .25 4 weeks and clomid @ 100/50/50/50.
> I will start cycle this monday.



What you think good? I might run the adex for 2wks, still not sure. I ran adex b4 and it was surprisely strong so thats why i only said a week, but we'll see. I'm definately running the nolva and clomid for 4wks tho.

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## QUE?

nice work i can see the results....keep up the good work. Any new pictures???

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## jc95605

Not yet. I'm thinking next week during wk 8. Also i went to the gym on thursday. I'll post that workout along with the one i'm about to do later today.

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## jc95605

*July 17th*
Workout 13
Cycle Day 43
Weight 178.5lbs
Wk 7


*As always changes are in red, and left-arm only are in green.

BB Flat bench: 135lbsx10, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx8, 245lbsx3

Pec-Dec Fly (Machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10

Alternating Curls: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 25lbsx10, 25lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 20lbsx15, 20lbsx15, 20lbsx15, 20lbsx15

Cable Curls: 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Skull Crushers (w/curl bar with handles): 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10


Tricep Pulldown (w/rope attachment): 70lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Nothing really different to report. I took a lil longer break this time between workouts. Not really my choice but i got a new surround sound receiver and a couple other little things came up so that took a lil bit of time. This time when i was in the gym i noticed the break, so it was obviously took long.

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## jc95605

*July 19th*
Workout Day 14
Cycle Day 45
Weight 179.5lbs


Ok last time the weight pissed me off but I counted that towards a small breakfast. anyway looks like its going up again. Good! I'll talk more on this later.

*As always the changes are in red.

BB Military Press: 85lbsx10, 95lbsx10, 115lbsx10

Front Lateral Raise: 20lbsx10, 20lbsx10, 20lbsx10

Smith Machine Shrugs: 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10

Hanging Leg Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combinaton situp (machine): 30lbsx20, 30lbsx20, 30lbsx20

Ab machine: 5lbsx20, 5lbsx20, 5lbsx20

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## binder

what's with the left arm only stuff?

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## jc95605

> what's with the left arm only stuff?



I feel my left arm is weaker. Its a lil smaller in size, but not really noticable, except in the gym of course. I asked about this awhile back ago in the log for some suggestions on strengthening that one side. If you have some input I'm all ears. It's mostly noticable on the hammer curls tho.

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## jc95605

*July 21st*

I'm just writing this post as an update mostly about sides. 

First off as you can see i didn't get to go to the gym today. Well were about to move so i went looking at houses. I figure if theres one reason to skip the gym it should be for a new home, but thats me. Because of this house hunting i expect a few more times that i have to miss the gym due this. I'm gonna try and minimize it as much as i can, but i can only do so much.

Sides-Ok about 2wks ago i noticed my back getting some acne. I first thought that maybe its because i've been sleeping with my shirt off. Now i'm pretty sure its from the test. Its been getting slowly worse and its starting to look kinda bad. Also i know during pct alot of ppl breakout so thats gonna be a real fun time for me.

Cause i know this is gonna happen i've already decided to take accutane after pct. I know its a pretty harsh compound but i have a lil acne on my face that i can't seem to get rid of so this should definately get rid of it and get rid of all the shit on my back. What you guys think?

Also my aggression has been noticably up. I feel like fighting all the time. I'm thinking about taking some fighting lessons. Like kickboxing maybe i dunno just a thought at this point. I just wanna make sure i fight in a gym and not a bar. Since my test levels are obviously high i've also been wanting to hump everything i see. I mean i've been pretty horny lately. I think maybe i'll be a professional slut. I mean why not? Its about time i've had my fun i think.

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## 916casanova

Yeah bro. I broke out pretty bad last time as well. Just got a good ruff scrubber along with a back scrubber and some good soap and let the soap sit for a minute or so before washing it off. Also swimming in pools with chlorine and sun tanning with no lotion clear it up as well.. I didn't have any aggression but I was so damn horny my girl was crawling away from me half the time.. *LOL*

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## jc95605

*July 23rd*
Workout Day 15
Cycle Day 49
Weight 178.5lbs

Well I was a lil disappointed in my chest workout. Cause i did kinda shitty on my chest i decided to take it out on my arms. Then when i got to Triceps the gym was closing so i had to cut out an excercise. When it rains it pours right. Again the changes will be in red and left-arm only will be in green.

DB flat bench: 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 85lbsx6

Pec-Dec Flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx20

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 35lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15

Cable Curls: 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 70lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10

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## jc95605

*July 24th*
Workout Day 16
Cycle Day 50
Weight 180lbs
*Wk 8*

I'll talk more about this tomorrow when i have more time. I still wanted to post this now to try and keep the log updated as much as possible. As always the changes are in red.

DB Military Raises: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Front Lateral Raises: 20lbsx10, 20lbsx10, 20lbsx10

Shrugs (Smith Machine): 100lbsx15, 110lbsx15, 120lbsx15

Hip Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combination Crutches: 30lbsx20, 30lbsx20, 30lbsx20

Situps (Ab roller): 5lbsx20, 5lbsx20, 5lbsx20

I do have to say that the DB military and front lateral raises are getting easier. Seems like my shoulders and trap are getting stronger. Thank God! Since they have been my weak point i'm really anxious to get them stronger!

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## binder

> I feel my left arm is weaker. Its a lil smaller in size, but not really noticable, except in the gym of course. I asked about this awhile back ago in the log for some suggestions on strengthening that one side. If you have some input I'm all ears. It's mostly noticable on the hammer curls tho.


i see. what are the measurement differences and are you sure that it's with the bicep part of the upper arm and not the tricep? something to think about. My right arm is little smaller (under 1/4" diff) but when i was balancing them out, i just added 1 set at the end of whatever i was working just to the right. I did that on all the arm exercises (bi and tri) and it helped. i didn't do a whole extra workout. Just 3 sets on the left, 4 sets on the right. It'll slowly get balanced.

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## jc95605

I haven't measured them in awhile but i think its probably about 1/4". Like i said its not that much different, just hardly noticable, probably just to me. Maybe i'll just do another set on the weaker side like you did cuz this extra workout adds a lil too much time to be honest.

Also another note is that i offically ran out of Tbol yesterday. I'm going to continue taking the liver protection to try to clean & strengthen my liver as much as possible b4 i take the nolva during pct since i hear its somewhat harsh. Also i'll continue to take the liver protection throughtout pct and probably a few weeks after for the same reasons. I wanna run accutane during or after pct, so again the liver protection is obviously a requirement there too. As always any constructive feedback is appreciated.

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## jc95605

*July 27th*
Workout Day 17
Cycle Day 53
Weight 177.5lbs

As always the changes are in *red*, and left-arm only are in *green*.

BB flat bench: 155lbsx10, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx9, 225lbsx6, 245lbsx4

Pec-Dec flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10, 130lbsx8

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7

Alternating Curls: 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7

Forearm Curls: 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15

Cable Curls: 60lbsx10, 70lbsx7, 70lbsx7

Skull Crushers: 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

_BB chest_-So today my goal was to do at least one more rep than last time. Well i got it, finally! So today wasn't a total loss. I actually did 5reps on the superset but i didn't like my form on the last one so i'm not counting it. Next time i do BB bench i again wanna increase by at least 1 rep. That will be my goal, hopefully i won't have a shitty workout like last time so i can accomplish it.

_Pec-Dec Flys_-The last couple of weeks i kinda felt that i could go a lil more on this but i didn't want to. I wanted to save some energy for the rest of the workout. Well today i just felt like going for it! I dunno why. I added the 4th/superset of 130lbs. Man it was tougher than i thought it would be. I was able to squeeze out 8reps, and I do mean squeeze out. I didn't really like my form on the last 2reps but they weren't too bad so i'll count em. Also after i did this my back started to hurt, which leads me to believe incorrect form. I'm thinking i had incorrect form because maybe the weight was too much. Now i'm pissed that a machine beat me! I'll hold the weight at 130lbs so i can conquer this piece of metal!

*Chest Dips*-Like I said in another post i've been real happy with the chest dips my chest (especially lower) is becoming better scuplted, which is exactly why i switched to this excercise. However today and last workout it seemed easier. Sounds like i might add a 5 or 10lb disc soon.

_Biceps_-I'm gonna talk about both excercises at once, cuz its my log, lol. As you can see this time i went up again to 40lbs on everything. I could definatly tell the difference. My biceps felt more worked out, felt like that were actually ripping, felt GREAT! My veins in my biceps were bulging out as i curled on the alternating curls especially. I'm gonna hold the weight here for awhile, i wanna have some fun with this!

*Triceps*-Well i can't have too much good news. By the time i got to triceps i was already in the gym for 2 damn hrs. I was tired and hungry. And to add to that somebody was on one of my machine and wouldn't get off. He was taking his sweet time. The Skull crushers seems more difficult than usual. Maybe because i already used most of my energy. I did what i could which wasn't bad, but i think if i had more energy i could have pushed harder.

*As always constructive critisim is welcomed.

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## james21

hey bro looking good, like your getting up there! Keep up the updates, but why is it left arm only ???? in green ?

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## jc95605

> hey bro looking good, like your getting up there! Keep up the updates, but why is it left arm only ???? in green ?


Just so ppl can tell the difference. I might post pics this thursday or next week.

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## jc95605

*July 28th*
Workout Day 18
Cycle Day 54
Weight 177.5lbs


As always the changes are in red.

DB Military Raises: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Front Lateral Raises: 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7

Shrugs (Smith Machine): 100lbsx15, 110lbsx15, 120lbsx15

Hip Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combination Crutches: 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25

Situps (Ab roller): 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25

Front Lateral raises-Like i said last week this excercise seemed lighter than normal, so this week i added weight. After i was done my shoulder felt like they were exploding. It was awesome. I'll hold it here for a couple of wks then try and move up again.

Abs-The difference seen here in abs is that i was able to do more reps. I've decided to hold the weight here for the reminder of my cycle. If i'm able i'll only increase in reps and not weight. My goal with my abs is to make them more cut and shredded. Not all out size and strength. This is also partly the reason i'm restarted the clen . I'm going to try and burn the fat on top of them to make them more cut up. Since i changed my diet a couple months ago the clen seems alot more effective this time around. Diet....who knew right! So far my stomach already seems flatter and my abs are already looking more cut and developed. I don't think i've even been on the clen for a full week yet. Also if you have been paying attention you'll noticed my weight starting to fall. Another i hop you notice is the strength staying the same if not going up. Seems like my bf% is going down while increasing strength. Finally!!!

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## flacked

I must say I'm definately a little confused with your strategy here.

You are on test, and you've only worked out 18 times in 54 days? That's only about 2.33 times per week, which is about how often my grandma goes to the gym. I agree that overtraining is an issue, but your cutting yourself way short.

Let me know if I've missed something along the way.

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## jc95605

Ya i used to workout bout 2 or once a week. I moved back over here then i was getting situated, then i kept getting volunteered to do something for somebody, then i started school. Basically there were alot of variables in there. Now when i started the cycle that wasn't the plan. I had it pretty well planned out, but like i was saying shit kept happening to me, preventing me from going to the gym. Now i just say NO and i have more control of whats going on now, therefor i increased when i go. I now go 4x a week.

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## jc95605

*July 30th*
Workout Day 19
Cycle Day 56
Weight 177lbs


As always the changes are in red and left-arm only are in green.

DB flat bench: 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 85lbsx10, 90lbsx6

Pec-Dec Flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx20, 130lbsx7

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10

Well this workout was alot better than the last chest workout. My strength is back up to where it was! the most notable thing that happened today is that i had to leave out the cable curls. Everytime i was about to go over there 2 ppl got on it. I tried about 3 times then just figured the hell with it.

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## jc95605

I didn't get to do the shoulders/lats/abs workout after the last one. Had a couple of things that came down. It's not everyday you throw your good friend a 26yr birthday party at lunch. (Its complicated), when i do go back to the gym i'm gonna hit these groups pretty hard to make up for the time.

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## jc95605

*August 3rd*
Workout Day 20
Cycle Day 60
Weight 174.5lbs

As always the changes are in red, and left-arm only are in green.

BB flat bench: 155lbsx10, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx6, 245lbsx5

Pec-Dec flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx10, 130lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7

Alternating Curls: 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7, 40lbsx7

Forearm Curls: 30lbsx12, 30lbsx12, 30lbsx12

Cable Curls: 70lbsx7, 70lbsx7, 60lbsx7

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

*BB chest*-So today my goal was to do at least one more rep than last time. Well i got it, again! Last entry in the log i said my goal was to do 1 more rep everytime i did the BB bench. So far i've been successful in that goal. I might have be able to do one more but i thought my spotter would have to come in and help me so i wouldn't count that one anyway. Hopefully next time i'll able to do another one.

*Forearm Curls*-Well as you can see i went up in weight again on this specific excercise. Man my forearm was burning after this. I think going up to this weight was a good idea. My left forearm felt as though it was exploding and it kinda burned. Matter of fact the rest of my left arm felt kinda weak. On the nextr excercise is where it hit me. As you can see on the last set i had to move down in weight. Not happy about that at all, but since i went up in weight on the forearm curls in balanced out, lol.

*Weight*-As you can see my weight is still going down. A few post ago i said i range from 80-120mcgs ed. Well since then i've been using less. Now my range is from 40-80mcgs and its still coming off. Couldn't be happier about this. Who knew that changing your diet would have such a big effect on this, lol. Also I wanna note that even tho my weight is coming down my strength is still going up. Contray to popular belief it seems as tho clen doesn't hinder strength gains. Now i dunno if this is true or not while not being on cycle but as on its working. Losing bf% while increasing stength, cycle couldn't be going better! Four more wks to go.

**As always constructive critisim is welcomed.*

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## AcePowerZ

any new pics?

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## jc95605

> any new pics?


No but their coming. I'm thinking maybe this weekend. I'll take some and post them up.

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## jc95605

*August 5th*
Workout Day 21
Cycle Day 64
Weight 177lbs


DB Military Raises: 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10, 35lbsx10

Front Lateral Raises: 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7

Shrugs (Smith Machine): 100lbsx15, 110lbsx15, 120lbsx15

Hip Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combination Crutches: 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25

Situps (Ab roller): 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25

*Weight*-So my weight seems to be hovering around 175-177lbs. Thats pretty good with me. I can tell my BF% went down. I'll get it tested again maybe Saturday. I'm happy to report that my weight/BF% is going real well. I've only been using mainly 80mcgs a day too. A few days i would take it up to 120mcgs but only when i felt i need a lil "extra." Next week i'll start on the Diphenhydramine. I've been taking the Diphenhydramine every night becuase i have a sleeping disorder so my receptors have been staying somewhat clean. I can still feel the clen when i take so i'm not gonna do a real long cleanse.

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## 3dbigrigs

glad to here about the BF going down. I am interested in the pics as well. if you can take one pumped and one not pumped.

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## jc95605

*Sides Update*

A couple of week ago i reported that i was breaking out and i was more angrier than normal. Well....I've always had a short fuse so that was expected and since hasn't changed. However the acne seems to be getting better. I haven't taken anything as far as accutane or proactive, nothing on my back. It just got better by itself. My face is slightly worse but thats because of me. I keep feeling my face to see if they've gotten better and in turn made it worse. Point being because of the juice its gotten better. Seems I hit a rough spot but worked thru it. Wk 13 here I come!

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## jc95605

*August 9th*
Workout Day 22
Cycle Day 68
Weight 176lbs
*Wk 10.2*


As always the changes are in red and left-arm only are in green.

DB flat bench: 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 85lbsx10, 90lbsx4

Pec-Dec Flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx20, 130lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 8, 8

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Well as of late i've been getting real busy so I had to take longer break in-between workouts. I didn't want to but i had to. Anyway because of that my strength look like it went down slightly in the form of reps. As you can see in the red my reps went down by about 2. I'm contributing this directly to the big gap of time in between workouts. This has happened before unfortunately so i know that the next workout will be alot better.

*Sides-*Well while I was at the gym i noticed my right nipple was a lil hard and sensitive. Symptoms of gyno? I dunno, it could be something stupid. I'm gonna watch it carefully for another 2 days and decide then. I already have adex here, on hand ready to go if need be.

*Pics-*Yes do to popular demand i finally took some new pics today. These will show my progress at about Wk 10.2. 

*As always constructive critisim is welcomed.*









Like i said b4 i think my BF% has been going down. It would figure i'd feel all bloated during picture day. Oh well, I decided to go ahead and put them up anyway. Maybe i'll take some more on a "better" day.

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## binder

noticable difference in pictures. You can tell your shoulders are your weakspot but they are finally showing so that's a good thing. You can definately tell you have made changes to your body.

keep up the good work.

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## 3dbigrigs

great new avatar pictures. Your pics look really good.

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## jc95605

Thanks i still wanna do a different post but its not a priority by any means. Already looking into my next cycle. Planning and researching, ya know how it goes. Got about another 3wks of this cycle. I like the gains but i have to be honest i'll be glad when its over.

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## 3dbigrigs

can you please also post at least arms* ( measurements cold flexed )* before and as of now!!

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## jc95605

Ya gimme a few days here while i find the damn tape measure. My arm size before cycle (or beginning can't remember) is in the beginning of the log.

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## 3dbigrigs

if you use myotape it is really a great way to take fast easy measurements by yourself.

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## jc95605

What the hell is that? I was just gonna use that flat tape that you use when sewing. Is that what your talking about?

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## 3dbigrigs

MYOTAPE

http://www.amazon.com/AccuFitness-MT...8715039&sr=8-1

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## jc95605

Sry i didn't forget about you but i've been so busy with my truck project. Ya i have something like that. The trick is finding it. Hopefully i'll be able to update my cycle tonight. There are a few things i wanna mention.

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## Kingdom

Def sir, spread the workouts 2 muscles max in one day, atleast 5 days rest for each muscle before the next work out. Injecting in the glute is hard, try the shoulder...musch easier. trust me

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## 3dbigrigs

looking forward to it for sure. ( measurements that is )

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## jc95605

*August 13th*
Workout Day 23
Cycle Day 72
Weight 174lbs


As always the changes are in red and left-arm only are in green.

BB flat bench: 5x185, 5x205, 5x245, 12x185, 135xfailure (18)

Pec-Dec Flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx20, 130lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10

Ok well first off the big difference was the BB flat bench. I tried a routine suggested by another member. Let me lemme say that when I ask for suggestions and input I actually use them like today. 

*BB Bench (dropsets)-*So After doing these sets i felt nothin....at first. About 5-10mins later my chest felt like it exploded. I think I still need to adjust the weight around but i'm pretty close. I'll continue this workout until the end of the cycle at least. It was suggested that I do it for 6-8 wks. I'm thinking I'll do it for 6 at most. Again we'll see the progress at that point to make an decision.

*Chest*-Ok I'm thinking its time to change up the chest routine some. I'm thinking of doing different pec-dec excercises. If anybody has any suggestions on a effective excercise, I'm all ears to hear it.

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## jc95605

Again short for time. I'm gonna try and set aside some internet time tonight.

Kingdom-I wanna start injecting into my thigh, but i think I keep hitting something or injecting in the wrong spot. I dunno I'll get a lesson another time. I only have 2 more wks of this cycle; but next one i'll definate want to try something different

3dbig-I looked for the tape measure the other say and couldn't find it. I'm gonna do a full out search tonight so hopefully I'll post those number tonight or tomorrow. I appreciate your patience and thanks for that link!

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## jc95605

So i think i might be getting a lil gyno. In my right nipple it feels like theres something hard forming behind it. It does't itch at all but it is pretty sensitive. Cuz of all this my right pec seems to be a lil swollen, a lil bit. I'm thinking of starting on some adex but i'm not sure if its a lil gyno. *What you guys think? Does it sound like gyno?*

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## 3dbigrigs

> So i think i might be getting a lil gyno. In my right nipple it feels like theres something hard forming behind it. It does't itch at all but it is pretty sensitive. Cuz of all this my right pec seems to be a lil swollen, a lil bit. I'm thinking of starting on some adex but i'm not sure if its a lil gyno. *What you guys think? Does it sound like gyno?*


from what I have read bro, when you feel a lump that is a sign that is could be gyno. but again I am no expert but that is what I have read.

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## jc95605

Well i think it might be so I just took .5mgs of adex and will continue until its gone. My weight might move a couple pounds down because of it. Also 3dbig I measured my arms and their sitting at 15.5." In the beginning of the cycle they were 15.25." However now their alot more firm/hard. Sry I can't describe it better. I think some of the fat that was on my arms is gone now. My strength has obvoiusly gone up, size a lil bigger, but more importantly BF% has gone down. Anyway this i think is because of the clen i've been taking for the past few weeks. There you go 3dbig, hope this is what your looking for.

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## 3dbigrigs

hmmm 15.25 to 15.50 and you are 10 weeks into the cycle. I would think that you would have gained a lot more than that or am I the only one. I also think your weight should have increased more, the clen may have hindered gains. I dunno anyone else have any explaination. I am in week 3 and my arms went from my cut at 14.6 to now 15.7" and again I am only in week 3 and have not felt the test yet.

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## jc95605

Ya but you might have water retention. I have little to none. I don't think it hindered gains because my strength went up. It hindered size yes, but this cycle wasn't supposed to be a bulker so i'm kool with that. I just wanted to do a cutter/lean bulk. I am bigger, you can tell by the pics. It obviously muscle and not fat. I'm satisfied with my results.

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## jc95605

*August 17th*
Workout Day 24
Cycle Day 76
Weight 175lbs


*As always the changes are in red.

BB Military Press: 85lbsx10, 95lbsx10, 115lbsx10

Side Lateral Raise: 15lbsx10, 15lbsx10, 15lbsx10

Smith Machine Shrugs: 100lbsx15, 110lbsx15, 120lbsx15

Hanging Leg Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combinaton situp (machine): 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25

Ab machine: 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25

As you can see the big difference today was the side lateral raises. Usually I do them to the front but this time i wanted to change it up. I'm gonna do some research on what exactly the muscle is specificly works. Furthermore i think i'm gonna treat the shoulders kind of like the benchpress. What I mean is switching it every other week. For shoulders I'll do front lateral raises one week, then the next week I'll do side lateral raises. Obvioulsy you can see that I'm very weak in this excerise. All the more reason to change it up. *What do you guys think?*

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## jc95605

*Sides Update*

Well a couple of days ago I asked if my sympotoms sounds like gyno. I got a couple of reponses saying that it sounded like it. I'm not a 100% positive but this is definately something different. So I decided to get ahead and start my AI. *As of yesterday I started adex .5mgs ed.* I'll continue to do this until the sides are gone.

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## AcePowerZ

i do not think it will hurt to do front and side lat raises on the same day. Another thing is building your shoulder muscles will help increase your bench press, so remember that. Maybe the only reason the arm gains have not gained is the lack of missing a couple of workouts, but none the less I can deffinetly see the gains in the new pics. Good Work.

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## jc95605

Like i've said b4 i'm still lifting more so my strength has definately gone up just not my size, which is what my cycle goal was. So i'm right on track. 

Thanks for the info about the shoulder raises. As I also stated b4 shoulders are my weak point. I don't know much about them, but I think altering excercies every other workout will sort of keep my body guessing so i think in that sense it MIGHT be more effective. Either way I'll continue my research and consider your input.

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## binder

you are way underworking your shoulders.

you are only doing 2 shoulder exercises on your shoulder days. Every time you do shoulders you need to hit all 3 deltoid areas. Anterior, lateral, and posterior. I told you this in the PM.

the lateral raises will work your lateral delt. front raises will work your anterior delt. You don't even have a posterior delt workout in any of those which will make your back small and weak. You are going to overdevelop the anterior shoulder and pec and have a weak back which will keep you from your maximum strength.

You need to hit all areas of the shoulders every workout. I do at least 4 exercises per muscle group every workout. 2 exercises is well below par. It takes 2 exercises just to get me pumped up.

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## jc95605

Maybe your an over achiever, lol. No I appreciate all input. Can you give me some examples of the posterior shoulder excercises? I guess I have to do them all on my shoulder day. Damnit Binder, thanks alot.

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## GT2

> Maybe your an over achiever, lol. No I appreciate all input. *Can you give me some examples of the posterior shoulder excercises?*  I guess I have to do them all on my shoulder day. Damnit Binder, thanks alot.


Rear dumbbell flyes will work the posterior head.
I like to warm up with military, then do working sets for real flyes, then sets for military (barbell ofcourse), and finish up with lateral raises. I believe the front (anterior) delt gets enough work when benching/incline benching and even when doing military press.

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## jc95605

Awesome i'll try this next shoulder workout. I appreciate the input. As you can see its been hard going to the gym lately. My S-10 project has been taking way too much time. But it'll soon be worth it. Thanks again guys.

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## jc95605

What do you think of this for a shoulder workout:

Barbell shoulder press=front shoulders
lateral shoulder raises=shoulder sides
Bent over lateral shoulder raises=back shoulders

What you guys think? Good for a shoulder workout? Lemme know, again any input is appreciated.

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## GT2

> What do you think of this for a shoulder workout:
> 
> Barbell shoulder press=front shoulders
> lateral shoulder raises=shoulder sides
> Bent over lateral shoulder raises=back shoulders
> 
> What you guys think? Good for a shoulder workout? Lemme know, again any input is appreciated.


Sounds good bro.
However, personally I don't like to start my shoulder workout with the big shoulder/military press. Try starting it with the bent over raises (i.e. rear flyes), as this will warm the shoulders up alot more, and then doing the shoulder/military press as the 2nd shoulder exercise.

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## jc95605

Is this how you do it? Have you had better results doing it that way? I'm curious to know your reasoning behind it. Sounds good to me tho. Anybody else have any thoughts?

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## binder

i always start with my power exercise: overhead press. heavy. period.

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## halobolic

damn you got so much bigger than before cycle only two months and you got ****in huge before u looked like a punk azz bizatch

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## jc95605

lol.....umm thanks? I just started wk 12 yesterday got another 1.5 wks to go. I finally go to go to the gym today. I'll post that tomorrow, i'm too tired now. I lowered my truck and planning that, calling the tech lines and everything has taken all my damn gym time. Anyway hopefully now i can focus more on the gym.

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## jc95605

*August 22nd*
Workout Day 25
Cycle Day 82
Weight 171lbs


As always the changes are in red and left-arm only are in green.

BB flat bench: 155lbsx12, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx8, 245lbsx5, 185lbsx10, 135xfailure (22)

Pec-Dec Flys (machine): 100lbsx10, 110lbsx10, 120lbsx20, 130lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10


*BB Bench (dropsets)-*This is the second time I did these dropsets and i think their highly effective. First off its been 9 days since i worked out my chest and i still have a pump from it. So i was more than eager to do it again. As you can see even tho i had to take 9 days off i still managed to go up in reps. I was kinda surprised with that successful return to the gym.

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## jc95605

*August 23rd*

I got my bodyfat check again today and i measured in at *13.1%*. About 3-4 weeks into this cycle I measured at 16.5%. So in about 8 weeks of test only i went from 16.5% to 13.1%, a 3.4% drop in bodyfat. I dunno if this is a really good drop or not but i'm more than happy with it. I guess changing your dieting and taking a fair to low dose of clen actually works. Imagine the upcoming tren cycle!

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## jc95605

*August 25th*
Workout Day 26
Cycle Day 85
Weight 173lbs


As always the changes are in red and left-arm only are in green.

BB flat bench: 155lbsx12, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx10, 245lbsx5, 265lbsx1

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10

Chest Dips: 6

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Forearm Curls: 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15, 25lbsx15

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10


*BB Bench (dropsets)-*Again i had a awesome pump walking into the gym this time. For some reason as i was benching i wanted to go up and see what i could do. As you can see i hit 265lbs. This is the highest i've ever been b4.

*Cable flys (cables)*-Well i said awhile back ago that i wanted to change my pec-dec fly excercise a lil, that i've been doing it way too long. Well when i was about to start it i noticed this other guy doing cable flys slightly different. I went over there and asked him about it and he said that they killed your chest. I decided why not? I tried 30lbsx10, slightly less that was he doing. Holy shit they did! My chest felt blasted after i did these, it was great. So much so that when i went to do the chest dips it just wasn't gonna happen, lol.

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## jc95605

*August 27th*
Workout Day 27
Cycle Day 86
Weight 173lbs


*As always the changes are in red.

BB Military Press (behind head): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 65lbsx10

Front lateral Raise: 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7

Side Lateral Raise: 15lbsx7, 15lbsx7, 15lbsx7

Upright Row: 55lbsx10, 65lbsx10, 65lbsx10

Hanging Leg Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combinaton situp (machine): 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25

Ab machine: 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25, 5lbsx25

*BB Military Press*-So today i added a few things. First would be the BB military press. Now i've been doing this for awhile but when i've been doing it i would lower the BB in front up my face to about my neck. This time i lowered it behind my head and felt alot of stress. This seems to be weaker. Also this time i really felt it work my rear delts and traps. Since i need alot of work there i think i'll keep doing them behind my head.

*Upright Row*-The next change would be the addition of the upright row. The majority of ppl have said that this excercise is highly effective. I would have to agree. I think i had incorrect form and i still felt it. Today when i was doing the reps i would go as high as my chest. Looking at a video online i see that i have to go all the way up to my neck. Although this will be harder, it will also be more effective. Next time i do it i'm gonna get the trainer to give me a demonstration, although after watching that video i think i know what to do. Either way i wanna make sure i perform the excercise correctly to get the best results.

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## binder

> *August 27th*
> 
> *BB Military Press*-So today i added a few things. First would be the BB military press. Now i've been doing this for awhile but when i've been doing it i would lower the BB in front up my face to about my neck. This time i lowered it behind my head and felt alot of stress. This seems to be weaker. Also this time i really felt it work my rear delts and traps. Since i need alot of work there i think i'll keep doing them behind my head.


you're stronger in your chest than your shoulders. behind the head works the shoulders directly without recruiting (or recruiting a very small percentage) of the upper pectoral muscles.

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## jc95605

So you think I should keep doing it behind my head? I like the fact that it worked my upper chest too. I was thinking about switching it every other workout. But, since my shoulders are so much weaker than my chest i think i'll strengthen them up first then start switching it up. Maybe after 6wks or so.

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## binder

I would work on shoulders since that is your lagging area. You'll see more progression by improving a slow area instead of increasing an already stronger area.

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## jc95605

Also looking to add a couple of back excercises now. Leaning more towards compound excercises or ones that work more than one specific part of the back. Any suggestions will be welcomed and appreciated.

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## ray0414

i have a couple questions for you. how much weightlifting experience did u have before starting your cycle? From reading hte beginning of your log, it seems u were only lifting chest and arms, is this correct? then u later added shoulders to your work outs. from what ive learned, by doing this u were begging for an injury of some sort by not having your tendons prepared for heavy workloads. how many times a week do u work out? if your on juice u should be at least working out 3 times per week no excuses, if your goin to juice u have to be ready to do it right. chest and arms should be on seperate days no matter what, if not then your greatly hindering gains. everything u are working out is way too short. u should be doing 4-6 exersizes for each body part, not 2. me and u are pretty much hte same size its too bad we cant work out together, im planning on doing my first cycle as soon as my shoulder is ready to go, but im only doing a TBOL only cycle.

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## jc95605

I've been working out off and on for about 4yrs now. I was in the military and couldn't always do it due to scheduling. But ya I mostly cared about chest and arms. More recently in the past 1.5-2yrs i start caring more about shoulders too. I did a lil back but not enough to mention. Then i got deployed and had to work 16hr days. Thats where the off and on came in, lol. I've tried splitting up chest and arms but this works better for me. Usually ppl do chest and tris and bis and back. I tried that but i didn't feel as good of a workout. So i went back to my way. The important thing about weightlifting is that you have to do what works for you. This is what works for me, you may be different. Now i workout about 3-4 days a week (with the exception of last week). I like to do about 3 excercises per muscle group. If i do more i'm either overtraining that muscle or the weight isn't high enough. You can do 6 excercises per muscle group but you'll have to have the weight a lil lower then you start cutting up instead of building and thats NOT what i'm going for. Your goals may be different from mine in any case I think you should do whats best for you. Also you should consider 500mgs of test e for about 12 wks. It works suprisly well.

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## AdamGH

> Also looking to add a couple of back excercises now. Leaning more towards compound excercises or ones that work more than one specific part of the back. Any suggestions will be welcomed and appreciated.


Barbell rows
dumbbell rows
seated cable rows
smith machine rows
two arm dumbbell rows

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## jc95605

I'll look them up. Appreciate it Adam. Anybody else have anything?

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## ray0414

the split of excersizes u just listed, in my opionion as well as some other peoples, u could hurt the smaller muscle group by combining it with a big muscle group which is probably why u didnt feel it (doing chest and tris, u will hurt your tri's) (doing back and bi's, u will hurt your bi's workout). if size is what you want, then u definitely want to lift them all on different days so u can focus on that muscle group and have full energy for the workout (chest one day, arms another day, back another day)
as for back, 2 great excersizes everyone should do, t-bar rows and pullups with straps so your hands dont get tired.) i started doing pullups as my staple for back and it got my back pretty ripped and eventually had to add weight.

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## jc95605

How long would you say til your back got "ripped" and you had to add weight. How many sets and reps did you do?

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## binder

Yes, this is true i haven't seen back any back exercises in there. By not doing back and having a strong chest you are going to get a severe imbalance which will make you injury prone. Also, the back muscles are huge muscles...if you're trying to get big i don't know why you wouldn't want to bulk up these awsome muscles.

also, how do you know you're overtraining your muscles? do you hit severe fatigue later on with muscle atrophy? because that's over training. If you're just sore the next day or even for a few days that isn't over training, that is optimal training. You should feel those muscles loud and clear the next day and be slightly sore for a few days. I don't think i would come close to getting the gains i wanted with 2 exercises. I do 3 exercises at the least. Hell, you're only hitting that muscle group 1 time a week. If you're hitting it 3 times a week then i could see reducing the exercises but 1 time a week, blow them out! you have 7 full days of recovery. People are too scared of overtraining and in turn don't train hard enough and wonder why they aren't getting good gains. During my build phases of 6 weeks at a time, i'm continuously sore. If i don't wake up with a sore muscle group then I feel that i didn't train hard enough. I can sustain this for 6-8 weeks and still have an overall good feeling therefore i'm not over training. 

We need to post a huge sticky on what over training really is so people will understand. It's not soreness. It's a whole body problem when you get fatigued and can't function normal. That doesn't happen after 1 workout. It happens after training too hard for multiple weeks on end. When you are on a cycle, it's even harder to over train because your body will repair faster. On cycles i train twice a day.

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## jc95605

Whats all this about me saying because i was sore i was overtraining? When did i say that?

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## ray0414

i dont remember how long it tooked, probably a few months, getting a ripped lean look takes time, u have to do something over a long period of time WITH CONSISTANCY in order for your body/muscles to take shape. when doing pullups to work back u want palms out not palms facing you, a nice wide grip but not too wide and u want to be able to control yourself going down too. u can start adding weight once u can do 10 pullups very easily. the thing about working back is u really have learn how to pinch your lats on your excersizes and get that squeeze. when i started doing back i did alot dumbbell rows too, and make sure u stretch your lats out alot, gives them room to grow and they dont get all tight.

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## binder

> I like to do about 3 excercises per muscle group. If i do more i'm either overtraining that muscle or the weight isn't high enough. You can do 6 excercises per muscle group but you'll have to have the weight a lil lower then you start cutting up instead of building and thats NOT what i'm going for.





> Whats all this about me saying because i was sore i was overtraining? When did i say that?



You didn't say sore, but a lot of people do. It was a blanket statement. How do you know you're overtraining the muscles? Overtraining doesn't happen on one training session, it happens over a period of weeks when you don't allow the body to rest. It's huge fatigue, as in not being able to even move that muscle group without pain if you have the energy to move at all.

And you can bulk with 6 exercises. 6 is a little high, 4 or 5 yes. One of the best regimens i've heard some powerlifters use is the 5 5's. that's 5 sets of 5 for each exercise. If you have to use a lower weight on subsequent exercises for that muscle group then that's ok. Your muscles don't know how much each weight there is. For power you choose a weight that you can hit 4-6 reps on. if you just did heavy chest then for your incline chest you have to use less weight so you can push out 6 reps then so be it. You're still getting a great muscle workout because it's expending all the energy you have to knock out 6 reps. Weight is just a mental thing. You base your exercises on clean reps. For shaping and toning you'll use about 8-12 reps so you should be pushing your body hard on the last few reps. for the 6 rep range that last one should be a struggle. Your body just knows the stress it creates to get this struggle. Muscles are dumb, they don't know "uh oh, we are 10lbs lighter this week so we're not going to get as good of a workout" when in reality you just did that exercise first on the previous workout and you performed it last on this workout. That's another reason why i change up the order of my exercises each week.

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## AcePowerZ

Quick Question... Did you run your AI your entire cycle or just save it incase of gyno?

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## jc95605

Only in case of gyno. I used adex.

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## jc95605

Maybe thats what i'll do then binder. The only problem with it is that i'll have to go to the gym everyday. And while that may be fine for you its not for me. 4 days a week is proving to be a pain in the ass and sometimes isn't accomplishable. So with going 4days a week i try to knock out everything while i'm there without spending 3hrs there. Once i hit 2.5hrs i'm extremely bored and just wanna go. So basically i do as much as i can within 2.5hrs.

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## binder

right now i'm only on a 4 day a week training schedule because i work full time at the hospital and i'm taking 18 hours for school with an internship. life sucks but i'll never cut my gym time short.

i do a workout that Ray wouldn't like so much because i work a large group with a small group. as of right now my workout looks like this:

mon: chest/bicep
tues: legs (every other week i alternate dead lifts and RDL's in the rotation)

thurs: Back/tricep
fri: Shoulders

I hit abs about twice a week now since i'm working more power so i'm reducing my auxiliary exercises. Likewise i hit forearms and calves about twice. After 6 weeks of power i'll go back to my all around workout and pull back in those extra muscles for symmetry.

I also will alternate from chest/bi, back/tri to chest/tri, back/bi. Generally i like working opposite muscle groups so pushing with the chest and pull with the bicep. Otherwise i feel i work my triceps too much during a workout.

I'm not saying you are doing a bad workout. I'm not one to judge anyone because i'm not some huge pro bodybuilder or power lifter. I just think you aren't working to your potential.

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## jc95605

*August 30th*
Workout Day 28
Cycle Day 89
Weight 178lbs


As always the changes are in *red*.

BB flat bench: 155lbsx12, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx10, *245lbsx6*, 265lbsx1, *270lbsx1, 185lbsx10, 135xfailure (20)*

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 30lbsx10, *40lbsx10, 40lbsx10*

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 6

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10


*BB Bench (dropsets)-*Again i had a awesome pump walking into the gym this time and again i wanted to see how high i could go today. I think because of the awesome pump that i have when i walk in there makes me have the "just go for it" additude. Last time i was tired after i hit 265lbs so i didn't go back down it weight. Well today when i did 265lbs the owner/trainer of the gym said he thinks i could do 270lbs. Well with him saying that plus my additude that day i had to go for it. Sure enough i was able to put up 270lbs, my new highest ever! I tried to do 2reps but it just wasn't happening, he had to come in with the spot. But i was disappointed with the last workout because i didn't go back down with the weight. So today i made sure i tried to go back down. So after the 270lbs, i went down 2 weights to 185lbs then to 135lbs. I gotta say that second time i did 185lbs was the heavyiest 185lbs ever felt.

*Cable flys (cables)-*Last week was the first time i started this excercise, man did i feel it. Guess it really was time for a change. When i did the first set of 30lbs it didn't feel as hard as last time. Even after that hard set of dropsets. So of course, i added weight. I went up to 40lbs on the last 2 sets. That seemed to be the right spot.

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## 3dbigrigs

wow your bench has really increased since you began. Great JOb. !!!!!!!!! I noticed you are stuck a bit on hammer curls, why not preacher curls or BB curls both really work the biceps. also skull crushers are great for triceps

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## jc95605

Its funny you should mention that. I was actually thinking about switching to 21's next week. I've noticed that for some reason i just can't seem to get past 40lbs. I was gonna try 45lbs but i didn't think i would be able to finish my set. So maybe next week i'll switch to 21's. But you guys won't know the cycle log isn't gonna be here past tomorrow. Unless you guys want me to keep going?

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## 3dbigrigs

Keep going on the log man even through PCT, so we know what you keep and such. also sides.. and yeah I forgot about 21s I do those every other week, and they will wreck you biceps, in a good way.

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## wukillabee

> the split of excersizes u just listed, in my opionion as well as some other peoples, u could hurt the smaller muscle group by combining it with a big muscle group which is probably why u didnt feel it (doing chest and tris, u will hurt your tri's) (doing back and bi's, u will hurt your bi's workout). if size is what you want, then u definitely want to lift them all on different days so u can focus on that muscle group and have full energy for the workout (chest one day, arms another day, back another day)
> as for back, 2 great excersizes everyone should do, t-bar rows and pullups with straps so your hands dont get tired.) i started doing pullups as my staple for back and it got my back pretty ripped and eventually had to add weight.


Exactly, what i do for size that works great for me is a routine like this:
Monday: Chest/abs/cardio
Tuesday: Back/calfs/cardio
Wednesday: Shoulders/abs/cardio
Thursday: Legs/calfs/cardio
Friday: Arms/abs/cardio
Sat and sun: Off
This works great for me. DO calfs twice a week cus theyre laggin. Not gonna do all the hw for u but go on bb.com, they have very detailed with videos/pics on how to do any and all workouts.

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## wukillabee

When im cutting i have a routine like this:
Monday: CHest/tris/abs/cardio
Tuesday: Back/bis/calfs/cardio
Wednesday: off or cardio/abs
Thursday: Legs/calfs or abs/cardio
Friday: Shoulders/abs/cardio
Sat and sun :Embarrassment: ff or cardio

SOmetimes i switch thursday and friday and on monday and tuesday i do tris and bis with slightly lighter weight for more concentrated reps and tons of intensity like 21's, drop sets, super/giant sets, etc. These 2 routines work great for me for my specific goals, always try to change up the workouts but use this workout routine. When u do heavy chest and shoulders ur indirectly hitting ur tris too. Same when doing heavy back ur indirectly hitting ur bis as well. Thats why when i train for size/strength i do chest and back days solo and arms solo all on different days. FOr defenition and stamina i work chest/tris and back/bis same days (as stated in above routine) but when doin the smaller muscle groups such as bis and tris its more strict and with slightly lighter weight so i dont overtrain them or cause any injuries. Not everyone is the same and it took years of countless routines and excercises for me to find what really works for me and my goals. Its all trial and error bro till u find what really works for u! I got arnold's bbing book (like 700 pages) like 5yrs ago and thats what gave me all kinds of ideas and ways to find out what works for me. I suggest picking it up to get a better understanding, well worth the 30 bucks bro. Can find it online or any major bookstore like crown's or barnes and noble. Also like i said bodybuilding.com has tons detaled routines for u to try out as well for free.
Just my .02 bro.

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## jc95605

> Exactly, what i do for size that works great for me is a routine like this:
> Monday: Chest/abs/cardio
> Tuesday: Back/calfs/cardio
> Wednesday: Shoulders/abs/cardio
> Thursday: Legs/calfs/cardio
> Friday: Arms/abs/cardio
> Sat and sun: Off
> This works great for me. DO calfs twice a week cus theyre laggin. Not gonna do all the hw for u but go on bb.com, they have very detailed with videos/pics on how to do any and all workouts.


I know i go there to look at excercises too. I just like to get input from ppl to see what works the best. Thats a kool workout and everything but like i already said i have a hard enough time going 4x a week let alone 6x a week. But more power to you.

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## ray0414

actually if your going to work a small muscle with a big one, u might as well do chest/bi and back/tri, that way by the time u get to the small muscle u have already exhausted it, so i suppose that will suffice  :Smilie:  
and the reason your biceps arent very strong is cause u do them on the same day as chest, which is a pretty exhilarating workout. before i hurt my shoulder i could probably hammer with anything from 50-60s, but theres no way i could use that much after doing one of my chest workouts...unless i was on steroids :P lol biceps gotta be high intensity, and after u've done a full load of chest the intensity either wont be there or wont be the same.

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## xo3et

Dude can really see a improvment, also i may add this is one of the best Logs i have seen. Covers mostly all aspects.

Thanks for taking the time to keep the log so detailed.,

And good luck with the training.

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## jc95605

Thanks x03et, its been a pain in the ass sometimes but i stayed with it.

As far as my biceps i think i'm gonna switch to 21's next week and see how that works.

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## AcePowerZ

Another good Bicep Exercise you want to try is called Static Arm Curls. As where basically you keep one (DB) at 90degrees then do a full curl opposite arm. Then keeping the arm that just completed a rep at 90degrees while the stationary arm from last time completes the rep. Not a Heavy weight Exercise. Light Weight!!!

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## jc95605

Damnit I forgot to mention that i stopped the adex about 2 days ago. I think my gyno has gone away or I just can't feel it anymore. In another couple of weeks i'll start it again with my pct as planned. One thing i want to point out is that while i was on adex my back broke out with acne. PCT is gonna be fun!

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## jc95605

*September 1st*
Workout Day 29
Cycle Day 91
Weight 177lbs


*As always the changes are in red.

BB Military Press (behind head): 65lbsx10, 85lbsx10, 95lbsx10, 115lbsx10

Front lateral Raise: 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7

Side Lateral Raise: 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7

*Upright Row: 65lbsx7, 75lbsx7, 75lbsx7

Shrugs (smith machine): 100lbsx15, 110lbsx15, 120lbsx15

Hanging Leg Raises: 25, 25, 25

Combinaton situp (machine): 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25, 30lbsx25

Ab machine: 10lbsx25, 10lbsx25, 10lbsx25

*Upright Row*-Just wanna make a note that i might be wrong about the upright row i might have went higher on the last set, but i can't honestly remember. But i definately did what i posted above so thats why i left that on there.

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## jc95605

Well today was finally the last injection day, so of course we had a lil problem. I think i was trying to inject to low on my right glute. Anyway when i put the needle in it stung like hell. When i pushed down on the plunger....goodnight, lol. I thought maybe i hit a vein again, so to avoid another swollen asscheck i decided to go ahead and abort. I took the needle out and the injection site swoll up right away. I looked at the needle and thought "you know what, i'm tired of this" so i threw it away. It felt great to finally be done with this cycle. So now the total length of the cycle is 13wks, not bad at all i think. I'll count down from last thursday 13days then start pct. 

Also that would mean this is the last entry into the cycle log. I'll keep it going throughout pct if you guys want but i think its served its intial purpose. Either way let me know if you want me to continue it. Thanks.

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## 3dbigrigs

> Well today was finally the last injection day, so of course we had a lil problem. I think i was trying to inject to low on my right glute. Anyway when i put the needle in it stung like hell. When i pushed down on the plunger....goodnight, lol. I thought maybe i hit a vein again, so to avoid another swollen asscheck i decided to go ahead and abort. I took the needle out and the injection site swoll up right away. I looked at the needle and thought "you know what, i'm tired of this" so i threw it away. It felt great to finally be done with this cycle. So now the total length of the cycle is 13wks, not bad at all i think. I'll count down from last thursday 13days then start pct. 
> 
> Also that would mean this is the last entry into the cycle log. I'll keep it going throughout pct if you guys want but i think its served its intial purpose. Either way let me know if you want me to continue it. Thanks.


Again please continue, and can you post some final pics before and after, same poses. the pic from your avatar is weeks old, I am sure you are much bigger now.

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## binder

man that sucks. i wouldn't have thrown away perfectly good gear! 

Was that the first time you've injected in that area of the glute? First time you hit an area it always hurts a little. I wouldn't go low on the glute though, that's danger zone. You were probably close to the sciatic nerve which is very tender and when you started injecting in the pressure against the nerve would be crazy painful. That's why you inject high and outside on the glutes.

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## jc95605

Ya i think it was. After i put the needle there i looked at it for a second and thought it was a lil low but i thought "ahh it'll be alright." Well it was definately something. I'm kinda tired of pinning anyway. 13wks is good enough for me. My next i'd want to be 10 maybe 11wks.

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## binder

> Ya i think it was. After i put the needle there i looked at it for a second and thought it was a lil low but i thought "ahh it'll be alright." Well it was definately something. I'm kinda tired of pinning anyway. 13wks is good enough for me. My next i'd want to be 10 maybe 11wks.


i'll never get tired of that feeling. I'm an extreme sports junky though so pain doesn't bother me. Makes me feel alive. I'm switching to ED injections.

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## jc95605

*September 2nd*
*Cycle Off*
Weight 179lbs


As always the changes are in red

BB flat bench: 155lbsx12, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx10, 245lbsx5, 265lbsx1, 270lbsx1

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 30lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 6, 10

Curls (using curl bar, 180-90 degrees): 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7

Curls (using curl bar, 90-0 degrees): 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7

Curls (using curl bar, full sweep): 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7, 50lbsx7

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10


*BB Bench (dropsets)-*Hit 270lbs again. I love dropsets! Even tho I keep forgetting to go back down in weight but i still love em!

*Cable flys (cables)*-The major change here is that i added another set. I struggled like hell to do it but i managed. Also I took longer breaks in between sets. Doing this really helps my weight on the bench and this excercise but kills my overall gym time. I think i was there today for a total of 2.5hrs. WAY too long.

*Biceps*-As you can see i changed up my bicep routine. I was thinking this, then alot of you said it too that i was stumped on my curls. So I switched the excercises back to 21's. I think i had the weight too low cuz i just didn't feel that good of a workout. Furthermore the alternate curl and hammer curl works the outside of the bicep, since i didn't do those i really missed that feeling. Next time i do it i'll add just a little bit of weight and the hammer curl.

**Again any constructive suggestions or comments are always welcome.*

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## binder

you said you did a drop set but i dont see it in there.

I think you are doing way too many sets/reps for bench. 7 sets with 49 reps....that's way too many. I'm not the poster child for bench press (my worst exercise) but with you wanting to increase your chest strength i think you are overworking the muscles on your workout. Your 1 rep should be quite a bit higher if you do less sets and definitely reduce those reps on the lighter weights. then if you did a drop set after all that....you're crazy.

you worried about over training your shoulders when i think you are actually to the point of overtraining your chest. It might feel ok now but a few weeks of this workout and the muscles won't be able to recover fully.

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## jc95605

My biggest problem with the dropsets is that after i hit 270lbs, i'm so happy i hit that i don't go back down. Every damn time i do that! My chest is feeling awesome! This guy in another forum did workouts like this and his chest grew .5" in about 4-6wks he said so thats ne goal as far as chest goes. When i have more time i'll post todays workout for shoulders and traps and hopefully you can give that a once over.

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## Obro

Hi JC,

I've not had the time to follow anyone's log for a while now, only update my own. 

Wow, I'm not sure how long ago you updated your avatar but that's a massive difference. Congrats. Also I noticed you put on 8 lbs in the last 10 days (171 - 179) !!! Jeez. Awesome. Where are the photos.

In your avatar your traps look realy small.I know that pose is not for traps but I saw you do shrugs on a smith machine at 110 lb. Is that per arm? I'm sorry I'm not sure what a smith machine is (I only have free-weights in my home gym). I use 130 kgs BB for shrugs (286 lbs) and I'm a small guy. Also I only ever do 12 reps for shrugs and it works well for me.

I too have just finished 12 or 13 weeks Test E and I'll be starting PCT on 12th Sept. 

Thanks for the log JC. Good luck with PCT. I hope we both keep up the enthusiasm.

Cheers
Obro

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## binder

> My biggest problem with the dropsets is that after i hit 270lbs, i'm so happy i hit that i don't go back down. Every damn time i do that! My chest is feeling awesome! This guy in another forum did workouts like this and his chest grew .5" in about 4-6wks he said so thats ne goal as far as chest goes. When i have more time i'll post todays workout for shoulders and traps and hopefully you can give that a once over.


what are you drop sets? there is a huge difference in a "drop set" and just going down in weight.

drop sets are usually done with a flat set before it. like 3 x 8 then you do another set of 8, immediately with no rest drop like 10-15% of the weight and knock out as many as you can to failure then drop another 10-15% weight then go to failure then drop another 10-15% to failure. There is no rest between the sets on drop sets. You can also try to just hit a certain number of reps on the drops like 3-4 reps which should be about all you can get. It's not wise to do a gradual rise in weight up to the drop sets because you'll start to get too many sets in there and drops should be done to failure or almost failure. They are very taxing on the system.

I just haven't seen a dropset workout posted in your log and you said you did them so i was curious what you did for them.

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## jc95605

> Hi JC,
> 
> I've not had the time to follow anyone's log for a while now, only update my own. 
> 
> Wow, I'm not sure how long ago you updated your avatar but that's a massive difference. Congrats. Also I noticed you put on 8 lbs in the last 10 days (171 - 179) !!! Jeez. Awesome. Where are the photos.
> 
> In your avatar your traps look realy small.I know that pose is not for traps but I saw you do shrugs on a smith machine at 110 lb. Is that per arm? I'm sorry I'm not sure what a smith machine is (I only have free-weights in my home gym). I use 130 kgs BB for shrugs (286 lbs) and I'm a small guy. Also I only ever do 12 reps for shrugs and it works well for me.
> 
> I too have just finished 12 or 13 weeks Test E and I'll be starting PCT on 12th Sept. 
> ...


No the 110lbs on the smith machine is for both. My trap since that pic are a lil bigger now. I'm starting to work them alot more now. Also this last workout i got with the owner/trainer and he showed me a different workout for my trap. The were sore, it was awesome. Now i'm using a "shug machine" and i'm doing the upright row. Both those excercises target your traps, it feels awesome. I'm gonna start my pct this wednesday. It'll be 13 days after my last injection. I'm gonna post my pics around then and post some cycle end results.

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## jc95605

> what are you drop sets? there is a huge difference in a "drop set" and just going down in weight.
> 
> drop sets are usually done with a flat set before it. like 3 x 8 then you do another set of 8, immediately with no rest drop like 10-15% of the weight and knock out as many as you can to failure then drop another 10-15% weight then go to failure then drop another 10-15% to failure. There is no rest between the sets on drop sets. You can also try to just hit a certain number of reps on the drops like 3-4 reps which should be about all you can get. It's not wise to do a gradual rise in weight up to the drop sets because you'll start to get too many sets in there and drops should be done to failure or almost failure. They are very taxing on the system.
> 
> I just haven't seen a dropset workout posted in your log and you said you did them so i was curious what you did for them.



See post #155. Thats what i'm trying to do if i ever remember to. I think its working real well on my chest doesn't feel bad in anyway. Feels pumped up. I usually give about 4mins between sets. Also at least 2 day between workouts. Recently as you can tell with the log, i've been waiting longer inbetween workouts. This isn't on purpose, just i'm in the middle of my project truck. Anyway thanks again for your input and i will consider it.

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## jc95605

*September 6th*
Weight 178lbs


*As always the changes are in red.

BB Military Press (behind head): 65lbsx10, 85lbsx10, 95lbsx10, 115lbsx10

Front lateral Raise: 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7

Side Lateral Raise: 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7

*Upright Row: 45lbsx10, 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 75lbsx7

Shrugs ("shrug machine"): 100lbsx10, 100lbsx10, 100lbsx15, 120lbsx10, 120lbsx10]

*Upright Row*-So today i asked the owner/trainer the correct way to do a upright row. He showed me his workout. Holy crap my traps burned, it was awesome. Apparently i was doing them right. The way he does it is he starts low and gradually work his way up. He does 6 sets. As i was doing them i lost count, to be honest. I think i did 4 or 5 and my trap were killing me. So i know it was good enough for the first day. Next time i do them i'll keep better track of it. 

Where i did the upright row we used a different "machine"/rack that worked a lil better. He wanted to lift the barbell with a different hand positing but it hurt my wrists, so i only did 2 sets then stopped that way. I didn't post it here cuz i'm not really gonna count that.

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## binder

> See post #155. Thats what i'm trying to do if i ever remember to. I think its working real well on my chest doesn't feel bad in anyway. Feels pumped up. I usually give about 4mins between sets. Also at least 2 day between workouts. Recently as you can tell with the log, i've been waiting longer inbetween workouts. This isn't on purpose, just i'm in the middle of my project truck. Anyway thanks again for your input and i will consider it.


you went up to a 1 rep max (270) then down to 185x10 then 135x20

that is too big of a drop in weight with too many reps for it to be a proper "drop set". Drop sets will be done immediately (without any rest at all) after the next and usually have a 10-15% drop in weight. You also don't want to do them right after a 1 rep max. The idea is to tax the muscle over a medium rep range then drop immediately down in weight and tax it to failure and do that 3 times. That will exhaust the muscle fibers and cause the body to recruit as many muscle fibers as possible. Any rest between drop sets and the momentum is lost. Also, if you can do too many reps then you haven't dropped enough to overtax the muscles. You should shoot for 3-4 reps each drop set, which usually is about a 10% drop in weight.

This also rushes a high amount of blood into the area to help speed recover and it gives the muscle huge "pump". You don't want to use drop sets every time though. It breaks down a large amount of muscle so it's very taxing. Great change of pace for the muscles though.

Your setup there looked just like a ramp up/ramp down type pyramid with the last set to failure.

don't take this the wrong way but i'm confused on how you are worried 4 sets of an exercise for the shoulders was over training yet 9 sets for the chest isn't? the shoulders are actually larger and faster recovering than the pectorals.

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## jc95605

Ok why don't you go ahead and give me a dropset that you think will work. The workout i'm doing is based off someone's elses input. And hey...he could be wrong. So lets gets your and i'll try it and we'll see how we like it.

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## binder

> Ok why don't you go ahead and give me a dropset that you think will work. The workout i'm doing is based off someone's elses input. And hey...he could be wrong. So lets gets your and i'll try it and we'll see how we like it.


Well, i don't know your strength but the basis of most drops sets is to do a 3 sets of an exercise with about 8 rep. So pick a weight you can get 8 reps and it works you out pretty hard. Then take that same weight, do a set of 8 then drop 10% of the weight off immediately and knock out as many as you can (which usually ends up being under 5) then take 10% of that weight off and knock out more. you do 3 weight "drops". Each time dropping about 10% of the weight. So if you choose 200lbs on your sets of 8 you would then after the 4th one with no rest drop to 180lbs and press then drop down about 10% again (so 160 would be close enough) and knock out some then immediately to 145. When you get done your muscles will be pumped hard and you'll be burnt. It fries the muscles hard.

The key is no rest. If you start resting then it's just a pyramid, not a drop set. 

I'm not saying pyramids don't work. But to say a pyramid is a drop set is incorrect. The rest between sets on a pyramid changes the way the muscles are worked completely.

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## ray0414

ever do incline barbell bench?

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## jc95605

> Well, i don't know your strength but the basis of most drops sets is to do a 3 sets of an exercise with about 8 rep. So pick a weight you can get 8 reps and it works you out pretty hard. Then take that same weight, do a set of 8 then drop 10% of the weight off immediately and knock out as many as you can (which usually ends up being under 5) then take 10% of that weight off and knock out more. you do 3 weight "drops". Each time dropping about 10% of the weight. So if you choose 200lbs on your sets of 8 you would then after the 4th one with no rest drop to 180lbs and press then drop down about 10% again (so 160 would be close enough) and knock out some then immediately to 145. When you get done your muscles will be pumped hard and you'll be burnt. It fries the muscles hard.
> 
> The key is no rest. If you start resting then it's just a pyramid, not a drop set. 
> 
> I'm not saying pyramids don't work. But to say a pyramid is a drop set is incorrect. The rest between sets on a pyramid changes the way the muscles are worked completely.


One of my goals that i have right now is to bench 300lbs. today the owner/trainer of the gym said that if i can get 300 he'd give me a free shirt, lol. I already wanted to get 300 but now i get a shirt! Will these dropsets increase my strength fairly quickly or will the "pyrmids" work better? What do you think?

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## jc95605

> ever do incline barbell bench?


I have before, i didn't really like them all that much. Its funny you should mention that, recently i was thinking of adding either the decline or incline. I thought with all the benching i've been doing and with doing the BB miliary press in front of my head that i was already working that part of the pecs. However, then i switched to doing the military press behind my head which targets the traps more. So now i could actually do it but then i'm being told that i'm overtraining my chest. I honestly don't know if i'll add it right now. Lemme figure out the flat bench thing first then we'll look at adding another excercise. Although those cables curls i started doing really kick my ass but we'll see.

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## binder

> ever do incline barbell bench?


wow, that's a good idea. that and declines. 

honestly, i think that dropsets do more for size gains than strength gains. there are strength gains involved, but i think due to the breakdown of many fibers i think that there is more benefit to size gain for dropsets. that is my "opinion". I would have to ask some of the power lifters what their experience is on it. I think most of them use drop sets to keep their workouts going. They only add them in there to keep from plateauing in gains.

In all honesty, the one true way to gain lbs in bench press is to do bench press. The other exercises will make your chest stronger and bigger, but it won't really make you a better bench presser. I totally suck at flat bench. I have a good incline and decline bench and my DB work is actually pretty good. I'm using 45's for my db flys so i have a pretty strong chest, but i just don't work well with a flat bench. 

The pyramid would probably give you a better chance at putting weight on that bar because you are going to a 1 rep max. I would, however, lower the amount of reps you are using going up to that 1 rep so you aren't as worn out. That would help that 1 rep go up. I think most do something like a 10, 8, 6, 4,3,2,1 style. I leave out the 10 reps and just do the 864321 then hit a 4 rep again. All your reps on those heavier weights is good for growth but i think if you could put lbs on that 1 rep or even increase that 2 rep then your body will start responding more to a heavier load.

also, have you tried doing isometric holds? You'll load up something heavier than you can press, unrack it and just hold it for 30 seconds or so, then rack it. That forces the body to get used to having that heavier load on it. It's kind of a trick on your nervous system to adapt to it.b

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## jc95605

Ok maybe i'll do the 864321. I really like the pyrmids so i kinda wanna keep with those for another 4 weeks. I notice my chest getting a lil bigger in size already and i've only been doing them for 2wks i think. When i switch up my routine again i think i'll do flat, incline, decline, 3 sets of each. what you think of that?

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## ghettoboyd

id do incline first when your strongest. i find when i do them first it makes flat bench seem easyer.same when you go down to decline after flatbench.

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## binder

> Ok maybe i'll do the 864321. I really like the pyrmids so i kinda wanna keep with those for another 4 weeks. I notice my chest getting a lil bigger in size already and i've only been doing them for 2wks i think. When i switch up my routine again i think i'll do flat, incline, decline, 3 sets of each. what you think of that?


that sounds like a good plan. I always switch up what i start with from week to week. I'll let you know one thing though, the only way to get stronger on bench is to do bench.

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## jc95605

Damn just got my computer back. Anyway, you think the 3 set of incline, flat, and decline (in that order) should be dropsets or just work my way up like i normally do?

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## 3dbigrigs

where are the pics bro,. again thanks for staying on the log....!

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## jc95605

I'm thinking i'll take some in a couple of days.

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## ray0414

incline brings more mass than flat. and u can probably already do 300 if u didnt do 5 sets before it. according to bench press charts, if u can do 225 10times your 1 rep max is about 300. of course if yoru going to do this u want to warm up ur arms shoulders and back too a lil bit so your body is ready for a heavy load, not too much but just enough.

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## jc95605

I kinda wanna try it just to try it. I don't wanna waste my whole chest workout day tho. After I do 300lbs i probably won't be able to move for awhile, lol.

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## ray0414

> I kinda wanna try it just to try it. I don't wanna waste my whole chest workout day tho. After I do 300lbs i probably won't be able to move for awhile, lol.


this is why "maxing out" is for high school kids. also, throw in some negatives. and by lifting heavy on chest every week, i think your risking the chance for injury (doing sets at the end of only 1 or 2 reps). once u start getting real strong ur just gonna screw up your joints/elbows or possibly shoulders. once in a while maxing out probably wont hurt, maybe once a month at the most.

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## jc95605

Ya maxing out never made that much sense to me either. Why so i can brag? Thats not what i'm in it for. Anyway, i haven't maxed out since the last workout really. Before that i didn't know what my max was. So i'm thinking i'll continue with these pyrmids for another 4wks or so then swtich to the incline, flat, and decline mix.

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## ray0414

chart for bench max

http://keithpayne.homestead.com/files/estmax1.htm

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## binder

> Damn just got my computer back. Anyway, you think the 3 set of incline, flat, and decline (in that order) should be dropsets or just work my way up like i normally do?


i would definitely not do 3 dropsets for chest in 1 workout. I would only add a dropset every couple weeks or so. It really burns out your muscles fast.

I would use a good pyramid. I wouldn't do as many reps working your way up to your heavy weight like you do though. That is really wearing you out up to your 1 rep.

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## jc95605

Just letting you guys know that i started pct today. I'm starting with 50mgs x 2 of clomid with 20mgs x 2 of nolva. I was gonna do the adex today but i already and totally forgot about it. 

Also again i've been working on my project truck and now its in the paint shop getting repainted. So I haven't had reliable transportation this week thats why i haven't been to the gym. Hopefully i'll conjure up a way to go tomorrow. If nothin else my truck should be done late tomorrow or early friday.

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## Shurik

Wow Jc you got way too much time on your hands. Good thread.

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## binder

umm....just a thought, you might want to get something else to drive if you are building a show truck.

there is no way i could have drove my show truck while i was building it and then once it was done....i'll be damned if i drove that thing around town! haha

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## jc95605

Oh on i'm driving it around. I spent this much time and money i'm using it!

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## jc95605

*September 11th*
PCT Day 2

BB flat bench: 185lbsx10, 205lbsx10, 225lbsx6, 245lbsx3

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10 

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Alternate Curls: 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (rope attachment): 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 60lbsx10


*BB Bench*-Ok since everybody has been on my ass about overtraining my chest i turned it down a lil today. That and its been WAY too long since my last workout so today was definately a weak day, lol. I'd like you guys to critque it and tell me if this is what i should be doing. The one thing that pissed me off was that my 225lbs and 245lbs were exactly 2 reps off today. But again i'm gonna contribute that to being such a weak day.

I also wanna note that the 155lbs set really helps warming up the muscles. When i jumped in to 185lbs i kinda was surprised by the weight. Since this was a weak day i'm gonna contribute it to that since i can't compare workouts because its been too long in between them.

I should get my truck out of paint tomorrow so this crap won't happen again. Just thought you might wanna know that binder.

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## bodybldr

send us some update pics...

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## jc95605

I'll try and get to them this weekend. Along with a new avatar. Per your requests.

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## jc95605

*Please critque my previous chest workout*. Since i didn't lift what i wanted to i'm really wanting to blast my chest this sunday. Open to changing my workout slightly, mainly on the bench any suggestions will be appreciated and considered.

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## binder

hmm...maybe there were some underlying reasons you didn't press hard. I have days like that too. 

As a sidenote, i don't think you were "overtraining" your chest, but the amount of reps you were doing i think would put you into an overtraining state after multiple weeks of that kind of break down. It wouldn't hurt you too bad to add one of your crazy workouts you like to do every few weeks to get that nice breakdown, then go back down to something your body can repair on a regular basis. 

You should have went for a 1 rep. I like to work all the way up to a 1 rep, but that 1 rep usually isn't the same as my max. In the pyramid that was recommended to me does a 1 rep that's somewhere like 10% off your max.

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## jc95605

I'm kinda glad you said that. I was wanting to go a lil harder on the chest. Like i said the last workout was a lil weak and i'm contributing that to the too much off time. I think the next workout will be better. Since the last workout my chest has been pumped up again and i've been feeling good. I can hardly wait for chest day again.

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## ray0414

this is what i used to do for chest before i hurt my shoulder, now i cant do any chest and its depressing!
I start by doing warmups of the shoulders and triceps to get my arms warmed up, nothing heavy just light, maybe 10 pullups. so i start out with flies, to get my chest warmed up, i found that warming up my chest before jumping on the bench would help me do more on bench. so id start with like 25x10. 35x10 40x10 45x10 getting a nice good stretch. then on the last one id use the 45's to do some reps benching them. then i went to the bench, 135x15or20. 155x10 185x6 215x10 OR 225x6or7 then i go back down, 215x7-10 if i feel good ill do some negatives with like 245, 2or 3 reps. then i go to incline bench 135x8 155x8 165x8 if i feel strong i go up to 175x8. then i go to decline and do the same thing. then i go do dumbell work, normally 3 sets of 70s or 80s. then i do incline dumbells 3 sets with like 65 or 70. then depending on how i feel i sometimes do some cable flyes going from down to up.

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## jc95605

that sounds like a fun workout. Thats something to what my chest workout was. Maybe i didn't post it right but it was something like that. I'm gonna have to agree with you i like that workout alot better.

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## ray0414

and all that was BEFORE i started eating a good diet that was high protien.hurt my shoulder back in late april and have since changed my diet and added alot more REAL protein, so im curious if im strength will go up once i get back at it. then after a month of workin everything again im gonna throw in some tbol for 2 months and hope for the best.

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## jc95605

*September 14th*
PCT Day 5

BB flat bench: 155lbsx10, 205lbsx6, 225lbsx6, *275lbsx1*, 245lbsx3, 235lbsx3

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10 

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 45lbsx4, 45lbsx4, 45lbsx5

Alternate Curls: 45lbsx4, 45lbsx4, 45lbsx5

Cable Curls: 50lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (straight bar attachment): 70lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10, 80lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Chest Dips: 10 (for the road)

*BB Bench*-Yes I changed my workout again. As you can see i got rid of the 185 and jumped straight to the 205lbs. It wasn't bad. Not as bad as i thought it'd be, didn't really notice it. Also from 205 up i reduced the reps to try and save some energy. When i got to 275, I was going to do 270 again but my spotter kept egging me on to do 275, so i figured what the hell. He guided the bar a lil as i pushed it up. Just guided, i really didn't feel any help/support from him. I'm a lil weary or not to count that. What you guys think? It was at this point i wrote down my workout (+ the last sets of the last workout) and took it to the trainer/owner. I told him that i wanted to hit 300 and asked him if i was overtraining. He said no and actually after the 275 he wanted me to add 3 sets of 235lbs or 245lbsx3. Then he decided on the 245lbsx3. He said the purpose of this was to create a good base for benching. Ok...kool....no problem. I went back and did the first set of 245lbs. My left shoulder started hurting so i reduced the weight to 235lbs. Managed to do the 3 reps byt my shoulder still hurt. I decided to call it a day there so i would have some left for the rest of the workout.


*Curls*-Another thing i've been wanting to improve on was my curls. As you could see i've been stuck at 40lbs for awhile now. So much so a couple of you even commented on it. Thanks for the input by the way. According to my own standards/rules i'm not ready to move up in weight yet. However, i decided to go ahead and force it to 45. Since i forced it i dropped the reps to 4. It wasn't as bad as i thought it'd be. At the end of the 2nd set i had more energy/power than normal, so i upped the reps. I don't know if i was just tired or if 5 reps was the sweet spot. Either way i'm gonna keep it there for a bit and see how it goes. I'll let you guys know.

**Any input is welcomed and appreciated.*

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## jc95605

*September 17th*
PCT Day 8

BB flat bench: 155lbsx10, 205lbsx6, 225lbsx6, 245lbsx3, 235lbsx3, 225lbsx3

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10 

Chest Dips: 10, 10, 10

Hammer Curls: 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5

Alternate Curls: 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5

Tricep Pulldown (one arm pulling down): 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10, 30lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

*BB Bench*-The only difference with this is that i took out the superset to try and save energy for the rest of the workout. Worked ok. Not as good as i thought. I think before i go to the gym i'm gonna eat more simple carbs in attempt to spike energy. I take caffine b4 i go to but it doesn't seem to last long enough now.

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## binder

how much caffeine do you take? caffeine has a half life of 2-3 hours in an adult. There is 54mg of caffeine in a 12oz mt dew. 380mg caffeine in a 12oz starbucks coffee. 

I use some fat free yogurt before i workout to get simple carbs and it seems to digest fast with me and doesn't cause me to get sick when i'm working out. 

Also, are you just doing a chest workout every 3 days? it seems like that is your entire workout. If you want to gain mass all over you need to hit your back and legs. It WILL put strength in your chest to increase your overall body strength. The back needs to be worked also to balance the chest out otherwise it won't be in harmony and could reduce the effectiveness of the chest muscles.

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## jc95605

Actually me and that trainer are already talking about that. Right now we're trying to decide what back excercises would be most benefical.

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## binder

anything heavy. 

bent over barbell rows, weighted pull ups, heavy lat pull downs.

for legs: squats, press, deadlift

those are the main ones. There are tons more, but for back the bent over rows and weighted pull ups will be the best mass builders, then the 3 i mentioned for legs.

that's if you wanted to just build mass. You need to add many more combinations into a workout if you are trying for more precision and not just for some bulk/powerlifting.

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## jc95605

*September 18th*
Weight 171lbs


*As always the changes are in red.

BB Military Press (behind head): 65lbsx10, 85lbsx10, 95lbsx10, 115lbsx10

Front lateral Raise: 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7, 25lbsx7

Side Lateral Raise: 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7, 20lbsx7

*Upright Row: 45lbsx10, 65lbsx10, 75lbsx10, 75lbsx7

Shrugs ("shrug machine"): 100lbsx18, 120lbsx15, 120lbsx15, 150lbsx12, 150lbsx10]

I think the shoulder/lat/abs workout before this one i forgot to post. Well anyway. The day before this i hurt my left tricep while benching. It didn't hurt too bad for this workout. I went to the gym yesterday and couldn't even lift 185lbs. I'm gonna go again today and see if i can. If not i'll skip the bench or chest workout and just do arms today. I have to do something. Yesterday when i skipped my workout i felt like a waste of space all day, lol. Wish me luck!

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## jc95605

*September 21st*
PCT Day 12

BB flat bench: 155lbsx10, 205lbsx6, 225lbsx4, 225lbsx4, 225lbsx4

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10 


Hammer Curls: 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5

Alternate Curls: 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5

Tricep Pulldown (one arm pulling down): 30lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10,

Overhead Rope Pull: 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10

Tricep Press (with curl bar): 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10, 50lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

*BB Bench*-Well I actually tried to workout the day before but my tricep hurt too bad. In case your not following along i hurt my tricep last workout. I don't see how since i put my hands further apart so if anything i should have hurt my chest. Anyway, so i took a ibprofen before i went this time and tried it again. Last time when i attempted it i could only go up to 185 and that was a struggle. Anyway I was able to go up to 225lbs. That hurt a lil but i didn't wanna go heavier and risk hurting it more. So since I couldn't put up alot of weight i decided that the weight i can put up i'll do it a lil more. So instead of doing 3reps i did 4reps. Also i controlled the reps more. I did a 202, 2secs up and 2secs down. Basically i slowed it down. Also I did extend my arms all the way after each rep, that way there wouldn't be alot of stress on the tricep. It worked pretty good. It would only hurt when i reracked the bar. *What you guys think it is?*

*Triceps*-So I thought since my tricep was hurt i wouldn't be able to do triceps today. I tried it anyway cuz i'm stubborn and to my surprise it didn't hurt at all. I don't get that! At any case i worked that out as well. Also as you can see i added a couple of excercises. I tried these excercises before but this was the first time i did them all in the same workout. My Tri's felt pretty good after. Actually i didn't go to high in weight cuz i knew i was still injured and because i wanted to see how much energy i would have after. That way I would know exactly how much i can push myself. Feels like next time i can go up in weight :Wink/Grin:

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## ray0414

u need to warm up better before benching, do warm ups for all your upper body muscles at light weight for like 15-20 reps, even a few minutes in the bike machine would get blood flowing. and if your going for growth your main sets should be of like 8-10 reps with barly any help. with low reps, your tiring the muscle out before u get a chance to work it good. low reps is for powerlifting, not bodybuilding.

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## jc95605

Well normally when i start my routine i'll do 155lbsx15. However, with this new training program my trainer wants me to stop at 10 to save some energy for the heavier lifts. I do kinda agree with you more tho. I do think that when i do 15reps i'm more warmed up and have a better workout. Now i'm curious to hear your explaination on how powerlifting is different from bodybuilding. I think this is argueable but i'd like to hear your take on it.

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## binder

I've had a few friends tell me it hurts when they unrack and rerack weight. I would think because you are pushing the weight up more (up being towards the top of your head) with your arms extended you would be pulling on the back of the shoulder and tricep more. Try keeping your elbows a little relaxed when you rack it verses having your elbows locked. That might take some load off the tricep and keep it from stretching it really far.

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## ray0414

heres an article about powerlifting/bodybuilding on dave drapers website, famous BBuilder from the70s who trained with arnold, he talks about a few different things with bodybuilding and powerlifting, he says its good to switch it up but he never mentions doing any less than 6 reps though.

http://www.davedraper.com/how-many-reps.html

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## jc95605

I read over that article and it seems the 2 he likes are 5x5 then switches it to a 5x8 after awhile, then back to 5x5 with higher weight. The other method is the 12,10,8,6. I used something like this a while back ago. I don't think my reps were exactly this but i gradually went down in reps and up in weight. I got pretty good results/strength increases with that. Right now like i said this trainer is talking about the last 3 sets to be fairly heavy. The same 3 reps for 3 sets. According to him this will build muscle memory and allow me to start my bench higher. I think i'm going to combine them. Do something like 12,10,8,6 then the 3 muscle building sets. What you think?

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## Bad Viking

Hi Jc!

Been following ur log from the start,and think ur doing great bro.
Try to add some deadlifts,squats and leg extensions...will help your core mucles alot and your overall strength. 

Best regards BV

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## jc95605

*September 24th*
*Cycle Off*
Weight 171lbs


As always the changes are in red

BB flat bench: 155lbsx12, 185lbsx10, 205lbsx8, 225lbsx6, 235lbsx3, 235lbsx3, 235lbsx3

Pec-Dec Flys (cables): 30lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Hammer Curls: 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5

Alternating Curls: 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5, 45lbsx5

Tricep Pulldown (behind head rope attachment): 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10, 70lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (one-arm cables): 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10, 40lbsx10

Tricep Press (using curl-bar, pushing up from lower chest): 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10, 60lbsx10

Tricep Pulldown (triangle attachment): 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10, 55lbsx10

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## binder

hmm....have you changed your diet or water intake any?

i noticed you're back down to 171 now. how many weeks ago did you stop your cycle? i think it appears to be what, 4 weeks ago?

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## jc95605

No i haven't really changed my diet. I've been in pct for a couple of weeks now. My strength seems to be staying to same but since i restarted the clen i went from 178 to 171. My stomach seems to be getting flatter too. I'm starting a new training program with a trainer at my gym tomorrow. I told the other owner/trainer that i wanted to get 300 and we went over a few excercises. Apparently this other guy heard about it and came to me on Friday and asked me. I said yes, and he wants to work with me. I asked a few other ppl there, and this guy is supposed to be the bench king. So it looks like i'll be changing my routine yet again. I'll probably have to devote 1 day solely to chest, then figure out the rest. I'll know more tomorrow. What do you think of the new tricep routine.

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## jc95605

Has anybody else had trouble logging into this website? I started training with a trainer today. It was a pretty hardcore workout. My chest was way pumped up the whole time. I don't like how i did today but he kept saying that it was my first day so of course it was going to be rough. Thats makes sense. He said just give him 30days and i'll be alot stronger. Last week he told me that he could have me benching 300 by christmas. If we continue this workout i think it'll happen. I can't wait until things become easier.

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## binder

hmm...dropping that kind of weight that fast makes me think it is more water retention than anything. Dropping 6lbs in a few weeks would require a pretty hefty change in caloric intake. even with clen .

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## jc95605

I don't think thats it. I'm was at 3500 calories ed. When i started this new training program i'm upping it to about 4000 and 320gs of protein ed. This is more of a lean bulk/bulk program. And its all natural. Starting tomorrow I will not be taking any clen . 

I gotta be honest i'm getting kinda tired of doing this log. My last 2 workouts aren't posted. I don't even remember what i did now, it was too long ago. I think i'm just gonna stop it and talk to binder thru private message, lol.

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