# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  US soldier kills 16 afghan civilians

## Flagg

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_1337416.html

As most of you will probably be aware, a few days ago a U.S. soldier entered the home of an adjoining village to his base at 3am and promptly killed all 16 occupants of the home, 9 of them children. 

He has since been detained and has not denied his actions. It is thought he has acted alone. 

When is enough, enough? I'm sick to death of hearing our politicians and generals telling us that if we pull out now, all those deaths will be for nothing. Well news flash everyone, they have been for nothing. If their solution is to keep feeding soldiers into the meat grinder because they are too stubborn to admit defeat, then it just goes to show the kind of people running our governments and military. If you're not reading about some poor soldier that's only been in the region for 3 weeks before treading on a landmine, it's reading about pieces of shit like this that are a disgrace to the uniform, commiting some heinous attrocity. 

The reprisals for this are going to be insane. 

Really, enough is enough now. Afghanistan has not been a conquerable part of the world for over 120 years now and it never will be.

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## gixxerboy1

i agree, nothing will be different in 3 or 5 or even 10 years if we stay. Just get out now.

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## zaggahamma

agree
past time to leave that far behind country behind

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## warchild

loved how the afgan people called us all "crazy american savages" when they behead, stone and drag people thru the streets

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## zaggahamma

Exactly...that country is barely above apes so lettem be

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## warchild

> Exactly...that country is barely above apes so lettem be


very true. i read a little bit how the younger generation in the middle east are very influences by western culture which is getting alot of them stoned to death. im talking teenagers that are in to the emo look. its very sad but they need to fix the problem not us.

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## wmaousley

> very true. i read a little bit how the younger generation in the middle east are very influences by western culture which is getting alot of them *stoned to death. im talking teenagers that are in to the emo look*. its very sad but they need to fix the problem not us.


Not in te ME my man, this is in Asia.

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## zaggahamma

> Not in te ME my man, this is in Asia.


but your not doubting afghan's are behind in civilization?

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## warchild

> Not in te ME my man, this is in Asia.


actually iran/iraq/afghan. look it up

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## zaggahamma

wmaous????

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## thegodfather

> loved how the afgan people called us all "crazy american savages" when they behead, stone and drag people thru the streets


I could give two shits what they do in their own country, to their own people. They're a sovereign nation, and as such have the right to do whatever they please within their borders. I have a very simply solution to end the taking of American lives in Afghanistan....................LEAVE! We shouldn't be there, after we ousted the Taliban regime for providing a safe haven to our enemy, we should have left. If they continued to harbor enemy combatants in the future, we use military force again. But to think that occupying an entire country for 10 years is the solution to 1,000-3,000 enemy combatants in a country of millions, is ridiculous. It's a self fulfiling prophecy, we say we cant leave the country until the 'mission' is complete, unfortunately mission creep has occured in that country on a truly profound scale. Hence we see the problem with UNDECLARED wars, they have no clear objectives, no clear mission, and no clear endgame in sight. We are no longer fighting terrorists who (if you're drinking the neo-con koolaid) want to kill us because we're "free and prosperous," we're simply fighting people who believe we have no business trampling on their holy lands, kicking down the doors of their homes, seeing their wives without their little head scarfs on, and various other offenses they beleive we're guilty of. Whether or not these things are significant to us or not, we cannot simply stick our heads up our proverbial asses and act like we can 'do no wrong,' simply because our "INTENTIONS" are good. At the end of the day, whether or not we think we're giving this great gift of 'democracy' to the Afghan people, if the Afghan people themselves do not want it, it is destined for failure, and it is all for naught. Our military is not the problem, our foreign policy is the problem. 

I have said it time and time agian, but most Americans lack the ability to see things through the eyes of the people we goto war with and subjugate. Please imagine for a moment, that a few thousand rogue soldiers within the United States perpetrated a great act of violence against another nation, China for instance. In response, China invaded our entire country, set up bases within earshot of each and every one of your homes, and then occupied our country for 10 years. Imagine that, in the name of bringing this awesome new system of government, a few of your family members got killed in the crossfire. Now, you may have never had any connection to the original couple thousand people that committed the acts of violence against that nation, but at this point, 10 years down the line with several loved ones dead, do you honsetly give a f**k? No, of course you dont, you too would take up arms against that occupying force if they did not pack their shit up and go home after killing the perpetrators of the act to begin with. 

There is no provision within the constitution of the United States, for us to go into sovereign countries, occupy them by force, and to install our system of government and values unto another nation. If anyone could please point out that Article and Section number for me, I'd appreciate it.

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## lovbyts

It will never happen but they need to turn him over to Afghan government and get the fvck out of there. It wont happen though because someone is making a profit from us being there.

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## zaggahamma

sorry lovbyts but innocent til proven guilty will always hold true...even admittedly of the crime, he SHOULD and WILL go to trial HERE in the U.S.

gf, i agree that we shouldnt impose our government on any country...i dont study in depth so just clear up this please...is it the voice of the entire afghan nation (women included) that they dont want democracy?

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## JP-MAN

> It will never happen but they need to turn him over to Afghan government and get the fvck out of there. It wont happen though because someone is making a profit from us being there.


never hand him over to the Afghan govt. deal with our own...

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## thegodfather

> It will never happen but they need to turn him over to Afghan government and get the fvck out of there. It wont happen though because someone is making a profit from us being there.


We dont turn over our soldiers to foreign governments for wrong doing, we deal with them in a court martial. We especially dont turn over US soldiers to nations with puppet governments and leaders we put in place, who are completely corrupt and lack the resources to effectively enforce the rule of law. 

Jp....with regards to your question, it would be hard to know what exactly the voice of the 'entire Afghan nation' is, for a number of reasons. It is a tribal country, fractured and disjointed, with many different sects and some ethnic variation, therefore finding a consensus would be rather difficult. Also, your post seems to make the assumption that Afghan women desire democracy, or that democracy would be able to deliver them more rights. The facts however, are quite different, because most people in strongly ideologic nations like Afghanistan want an Islamic government, with Islamic law and traditions to be first and foremost. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Democracy would deliver equality and civil liberties to these people. Pure Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the population is able to oppress the other 49%. We do not live in a democracy, but rather a constitutional Republic. We have written laws and protections, which no vote of the people can ever take away, as outlined in the constitution and the bill of rights within said document. In a pure democracy, if someone proposes to kill all people with red hair, and 51% of the people (or their representatives) vote in the affirmative, the rights of those people are subjugated and they are killed. In a constitutional Republic, written laws prevent such abuses of 'democracy.' No doubt that women in Afghanistan probably would like to be treated a little bit better then they are now, but it is rather arrogant of us as westerners, to believe that with all of their religious indoctrination and beliefs, that they are somehow pining for western culture to denegrate what they believe to be a great society. 

We must learn to be more understanding of cultures which differ from our own, and we must learn to see things through the eyes of the people we call our enemies, or even our allies, it is absolutely essential to effective and successful diplomatic relations in our countries future. We can no longer afford financially, to march around the world, spreading democracy at the end of an M16A2.

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## zaggahamma

> We dont turn over our soldiers to foreign governments for wrong doing, we deal with them in a court martial. We especially dont turn over US soldiers to nations with puppet governments and leaders we put in place, who are completely corrupt and lack the resources to effectively enforce the rule of law. 
> 
> Jp....with regards to your question, it would be hard to know what exactly the voice of the 'entire Afghan nation' is, for a number of reasons. It is a tribal country, fractured and disjointed, with many different sects and some ethnic variation, therefore finding a consensus would be rather difficult. Also, your post seems to make the assumption that Afghan women desire democracy, or that democracy would be able to deliver them more rights. The facts however, are quite different, because most people in strongly ideologic nations like Afghanistan want an Islamic government, with Islamic law and traditions to be first and foremost. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Democracy would deliver equality and civil liberties to these people. Pure Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the population is able to oppress the other 49%. We do not live in a democracy, but rather a constitutional Republic. We have written laws and protections, which no vote of the people can ever take away, as outlined in the constitution and the bill of rights within said document. In a pure democracy, if someone proposes to kill all people with red hair, and 51% of the people (or their representatives) vote in the affirmative, the rights of those people are subjugated and they are killed. In a constitutional Republic, written laws prevent such abuses of 'democracy.' No doubt that women in Afghanistan probably would like to be treated a little bit better then they are now, but it is rather arrogant of us as westerners, to believe that with all of their religious indoctrination and beliefs, that they are somehow pining for western culture to denegrate what they believe to be a great society. 
> 
> We must learn to be more understanding of cultures which differ from our own, and we must learn to see things through the eyes of the people we call our enemies, or even our allies, it is absolutely essential to effective and successful diplomatic relations in our countries future. We can no longer afford financially, to march around the world, spreading democracy at the end of an M16A2.


makes sense bro..thanks

the world is a cruel place

we should know as americans how lucky we are

what in your opinion could our nation do to better itself atm

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## songdog

Sounds like the guy had a bad head injury and wasnt suppose to go back.Watch the miltary cover their ass.

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## AD

it will be hard for the government to give up this military foothold. with so many troops and equipment already there on the ground, the commanders can monitor and kill anything and anybody in a flash with the predators. if a bit of searching is necessary on the ground, teams of spec-ops can be deployed in a heartbeat. how else can they do this if they pull out? with the bases in afgan, they can project the firepower across to all neighboring countries. its just too much fun for the government to completely give up this ability.

definitely, for the afgan family that got wiped out, and for the lone-wolf now under custody, and for the other hundreds of thousands on both sides who have lost their lives, it is a colossal nightmare, but strategically, once you pull out, its really hard to get in again..

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## AD

maybe i read too much tom clancy

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## lovbyts

> sorry lovbyts but innocent til proven guilty will always hold true...even admittedly of the crime, he SHOULD and WILL go to trial HERE in the U.S.
> 
> gf, i agree that we shouldnt impose our government on any country...i dont study in depth so just clear up this please...is it the voice of the entire afghan nation (women included) that they dont want democracy?


You are correct and that is always my stance, BUT in this case I have not heard he is denying it. From what I understand he walked back to base and turned himself in. I agree he should be tried here but he could be extradited back to Afghan if found guilty, that we do with people who commit crimes in other countries especially if found guilty.

If it is truly due to the head injury that is just sad he was ever put into that position or in those circumstances and once again the military has screwed itself in regards to public relations. No matter what the whole thing is just fvcked up. I feel for the families involved on both sides.

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## jimmyinkedup

While I do find it ironic in a country where the majority of people still wipe their ass with their hand and have commited countless atricities as well ( and lets face it - we have too) calls us "crazy American savages" - all in all I think Flagg's OP sums this up perfectly.

Also of note - professional soldier or not I do not think its prudent the military allow soldiers to do 4 tours of combat duty. In this day and age , in a conflict of this small scale, it just isnt necessary and is bound to have adverse mental effects in most cases.

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## zaggahamma

> You are correct and that is always my stance, BUT in this case I have not heard he is denying it. From what I understand he walked back to base and turned himself in. I agree he should be tried here but he could be extradited back to Afghan if found guilty, that we do with people who commit crimes in other countries especially if found guilty.
> 
> If it is truly due to the head injury that is just sad he was ever put into that position or in those circumstances and once again the military has screwed itself in regards to public relations. No matter what the whole thing is just fvcked up. I feel for the families involved on both sides.


I think we agree everwhere except no way a US soldier to do time/stand accountable to a government like that no reason he couldn't serve time here..never know they might torture

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## gixxerboy1

> I think we agree everwhere except no way a US soldier to do time/stand accountable to a government like that no reason he couldn't serve time here..never know they might torture


if it was reversed would we allow the other country to punish their soldier?

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## Times Roman

i noticed how the average IQ of people that live in Afghanistan plummetted after i left that god forsaken place....

...but seriuosly, folks, i saw a website that listed average IQ by country, and Afghanistan is averaging around a very robust 85. 

...that's kinda like a fairly smart 'tard!

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## zaggahamma

> if it was reversed would we allow the other country to punish their soldier?


good question gix
like with terorrists
i think that somehow they would let ppl like that get out/away 
where we wont allow this recent soldier out
i guess it would depend on the goverment
imo

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## gixxerboy1

> good question gix
> like with terorrists
> i think that somehow they would let ppl like that get out/away 
> where we wont allow this recent soldier out
> i guess it would depend on the goverment
> imo


i agree. Am sure the afgan people think the same thing. How are they supposed to ever know if he is released next month? Or treated like a king in some country club jail. I dont think anyone trust the country they are at war with

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## thegodfather

> makes sense bro..thanks
> 
> the world is a cruel place
> 
> we should know as americans how lucky we are
> 
> what in your opinion could our nation do to better itself atm



Let's clear up a few fallacies here, so that we can have a rational discussion. 

The Taliban are not 'terrorists', Al-Qaeda was a terrorist organization that was being sheltered by the reigning regime in the country, which was the Taliban. Al-Qaeda is a trans-national organization, which calls many places home, including our second biggest allie in the middle east, Saudi Arabia (the country of origina of the majority of the 9/11 hi-jackers). The majority of people who we are fighting in Afghanistan, are in every way like the people who were fighting for the past 8 years in Iraq, they are religious militants who want western invaders off of their holy lands, out of their neighborhoods and villages, and to go back from whence they came. In fact, prior to our invasion of Iraq, there were absolutely no Al-Qaeda within the country, they only appeared in the country some months afterwards because now they didn't have to travel thousands of miles under false visa's to kill Americans, they could do it in their own back yards.

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## Times Roman

the taliban is a loose knit group of religious zealots which also happen to be in the drug cartel business. they prosper when anarchy runs rampant in afghanistan, which happens to be the opium/hashish/heroin capital of the world. the taliban, just like the mexican drug cartels, are fighting for the ability to continue to cultivate, harvast and distribute drugs. The thing that the mexican drug cartels lack, which the taliban has, is the religious zealout element. they ALSO want to dictate to the local populations what to wear, how to live, and how to think. they WILL execute those that oppose their economic efforts, but also their philosophical/religious principles as well.

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## Times Roman

> Let's clear up a few fallacies here, so that we can have a rational discussion. 
> 
> The Taliban are not 'terrorists', Al-Qaeda was a terrorist organization that was being sheltered by the reigning regime in the country, which was the Taliban. Al-Qaeda is a trans-national organization, which calls many places home, including our second biggest allie in the middle east, Saudi Arabia (the country of origina of the majority of the 9/11 hi-jackers). The majority of people who we are fighting in Afghanistan, are in every way like the people who were fighting for the past 8 years in Iraq, they are religious militants who want western invaders off of their holy lands, out of their neighborhoods and villages, and to go back from whence they came. In fact, prior to our invasion of Iraq, there were absolutely no Al-Qaeda within the country, they only appeared in the country some months afterwards because now they didn't have to travel thousands of miles under false visa's to kill Americans, they could do it in their own back yards.


you forgot to mention that the taliban absolutely controls the drug trade in their regions, which is a HUGE part of what they are all about. I just came back from Afghanistan and have seen a few things first hand....

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## wmaousley

> but your not doubting afghan's are behind in civilization?


Sorry for the delay bro..... Def Afghans are seriously behind and may never catch up.

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## wmaousley

> actually iran/iraq/afghan. look it up


The media can say what they want too because most humans would rather believe whats said vs. researched truth. I guess its more convenient.

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## wmaousley

> Let's clear up a few fallacies here, so that we can have a rational discussion. 
> 
> The Taliban are not 'terrorists', Al-Qaeda was a terrorist organization that was being sheltered by the reigning regime in the country, which was the Taliban. Al-Qaeda is a trans-national organization, which calls many places home, including our second biggest allie in the middle east, Saudi Arabia (the country of origina of the majority of the 9/11 hi-jackers). The majority of people who we are fighting in Afghanistan, are in every way like the people who were fighting for the past 8 years in Iraq, they are religious militants who want western invaders off of their holy lands, out of their neighborhoods and villages, and to go back from whence they came. In fact, prior to our invasion of Iraq, there were absolutely no Al-Qaeda within the country, they only appeared in the country some months afterwards because now they didn't have to travel thousands of miles under false visa's to kill Americans, they could do it in their own back yards.


Well said bro

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