# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > BOXING / FIGHTING / WRESTLING >  Bruce Lee vs Royce Gracie

## marka

I saw a documentary about bruce lee.........do you think he could kick butt in an Ulitmate Fighting match?

 :Boozer:

----------


## Cycleon

you have *GOT* to be kidding

----------


## marka

Umm, yes, ofcourse I was kidding 

 :Confusion:

----------


## Cycleon

Bruce, if alive today, would still be able to beat almost anything in competition - his speed was insane and I know a few of his direct students and studied that - Bruce liked grappling I might add but felt that it didnt last long enough to go there - 1 hit and you were gone - well normally that was 3 or 4 hits nearly simultaneously  :Wink:

----------


## marka

I was curious about that. I kind of figured, but wondered if someone with grappling backround would be superior, as it has been proven in UF cages. Thanks for the reply.

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## billy_ba

bruce lee studied grappling but not on the level of technique that there is today. Modern grappling has evolved tremendously in the past 20 years. I would say that bruce lee could hang with someone his size during his time but in todays time, someone like bj penn would hand him his ass. If lee was alive today and trained todays techniques he would probably be the best at his weight. old lee vs new fighters, lee would lose every time.

----------


## Sta11ion

How much I like Bruce lee, he would be sent to school if he was brought in todays UFC fighters. But then again I am only going but what I saw with my eyes on TV. He could have some old training tech that were never shown. We might of involved in fighting tech but at the same time can you imagine the tech that were lost from thousands of years ago.


> bruce lee studied grappling but not on the level of technique that there is today. Modern grappling has evolved tremendously in the past 20 years. I would say that bruce lee could hang with someone his size during his time but in todays time, someone like bj penn would hand him his ass. If lee was alive today and trained todays techniques he would probably be the best at his weight. old lee vs new fighters, lee would lose every time.

----------


## calidude

> Bruce, if alive today, would still be able to beat almost anything in competition - his speed was insane and I know a few of his direct students and studied that - Bruce liked grappling I might add but felt that it didnt last long enough to go there - 1 hit and you were gone - well normally that was 3 or 4 hits nearly simultaneously


I'm going to agree with you. He was way to fast for anyone to take him down. The problem with take downs is that he would pull his punch/kick back before someone had a chance to take him. just my opinion..

----------


## Cycleon

but thats also because both of you are thinking that the fight will go to the ground - one thing that you cant get off of the TV is that Bruce would have hit the fighter a few times or simply kicked him once and that could have been enough to end it - his speed was far beyond what I can describe and you will find that they actually slowed down some of his movies so that you could see his hands move - I have trained with one of his students and have seen Ted Wong (Lee's only "pure" student in that he hadnt studied before that) in action and even I who know what to look for could barely see Teds hands move - and I kid you not, the man almost causually kicked a steel pole in the ground 6 feet from me and I could feel the ground vibrate underneath me - very scary dude but you will never see him fight unless you are in a small group

and lest you think its speed only not strength - only one of Bruce's students was large enough to hold a hand strike leather pad because bruce would punch and it would dislocate the holders arm. Think...the guy with the 1 inch punch that could knock a big guy back 3 feet - what do you think that his kick could do? Once you study the mechanics of what he did, you could appreciate that no one would be able to touch him, probably even today

----------


## Juggernaut

I'd say Gracie might stand a chance if he brought a gun.......I said might. hahahaha Bruce would kick ass while eating a bowl of soup and never spill a drop. Hell, I'll bet the ghost of Bruce could kick his ass. hahahahahaha

----------


## Juggernaut

> - you will find that they actually slowed down some of his movies so that you could see his hands move -


That is a fact. No doubt about it.

----------


## JdFlex

> - his speed was far beyond what I can describe and you will find that they actually slowed down some of his movies so that you could see his hands move -


I heard they had to slow down the film for his kicks too! The man was incredible. There's a jeet kun do school near my house and the guy that runs it was trained by a guy who was trained by Bruce. I attended a weekend seminar. This guy is incredible, his speed was unreal. He didn't look like much either. I'll bet all us juiceheads would see him on the street and think he's nothing. But he could scrap.

----------


## justincredible

> but thats also because both of you are thinking that the fight will go to the ground - one thing that you cant get off of the TV is that Bruce would have hit the fighter a few times or simply kicked him once and that could have been enough to end it - his speed was far beyond what I can describe and you will find that they actually slowed down some of his movies so that you could see his hands move - I have trained with one of his students and have seen Ted Wong (Lee's only "pure" student in that he hadnt studied before that) in action and even I who know what to look for could barely see Teds hands move - and I kid you not, the man almost causually kicked a steel pole in the ground 6 feet from me and I could feel the ground vibrate underneath me - very scary dude but you will never see him fight unless you are in a small group
> 
> and lest you think its speed only not strength - only one of Bruce's students was large enough to hold a hand strike leather pad because bruce would punch and it would dislocate the holders arm. Think...the guy with the 1 inch punch that could knock a big guy back 3 feet - what do you think that his kick could do? Once you study the mechanics of what he did, you could appreciate that no one would be able to touch him, probably even today



In total agreement. The only way a Lee fight would end up on the ground is if Bruce Lee laid down on purpose to kick somebodys @ss! In the unlikely event that an opposing fighter was quick enough to get inside and take him down...Lee would have his @ss knocked out before they even landed.

*Bruce Lee:*  778 *World:*  0

----------


## NUTRI-VET

Do any of you guys that are knocking Bruce Lee fight. I do ,and anyone in ther right mind that would compare BJ Penn to Bruce Lee hasnt a clue. I am sorry bro but you dont know what your talking about. I have traind with the Gracies ,Gokor, Gene Label,
Beni the Jet steven Segal and alot of others. I am 235 pound and fought competivly for 10 years I have 4 loses in competion . What I am getting at Brue Lee would snap me in half and I gaurantee you you ask a fighter from UFC if they could beat Bruce Lee they would say no.

----------


## marka

Dang..........what a statement........then BL was something else.......do you think his ability can be found in china...I mean, we know him cause he made movies....but, do you think there are a bunch of chinese guys as capable as he was that are unheard of?

----------


## Cycleon

> Do any of you guys that are knocking Bruce Lee fight. I do ,and anyone in ther right mind that would compare BJ Penn to Bruce Lee hasnt a clue. I am sorry bro but you dont know what your talking about. I have traind with the Gracies ,Gokor, Gene Label,
> Beni the Jet steven Segal and alot of others. I am 235 pound and fought competivly for 10 years I have 4 loses in competion . What I am getting at Brue Lee would snap me in half and I gaurantee you you ask a fighter from UFC if they could beat Bruce Lee they would say no.


you have trained at the jet center with urquidez? he is a nice guy who I had a good time with being around a number of years ago but you will notice he has the same eyes that jet li has, black like a snakes eyes, a killers eyes  :Wink:  - but yes, benny (who was world champ 5 years and 63-0 in world champ comp) would be the first to say that bruce would have won any fight he would be in today.

----------


## BigLikeBull

Let Bruce loose and he will conquer.

----------


## Gorgoroth_

Bruce Lee only studied Wing chun for a few years before going off to make some movies and forming his own style ( Jeet kune doo ) .

Bruce lee did a lot for martial arts , I mean he made it popular and brought it into Mainstream america but he was not a " warrior " or " master " .

Jet Li has made movies where the film been slowed down to fully capture his movements - yet does that make Jet a bad ass ? Does that make him compareably to Lee in your opinion ?

Jackie Chan was forced to study for several years and has been in real life fights where if he lost , he likely would have died. how do you think he would have stacked up against Lee ? 

I think if someone like Lee was put on the ground it would be over for him , someone would not nessicarily have to be incredibly skilled to mess him up on the ground - thats my opinion .

Bruce lee was not the biggest man in the world by any means , looking at his physique i'd say he never weighed more than 160 and his bones seem thin - if he took a hit from someone like Tyson ( in his prime ) bruce would break . Bruce's body does not look like it could withstand much punishment - again , thats just my opinion . 

I think Gracie would stand a good chance at owning bruce.

Did bruce think he was a bad ass people have him out to be ? did he ever claim he was " the best " ?

----------


## Odin

> Bruce Lee only studied Wing chun for a few years before going off to make some movies and forming his own style ( Jeet kune doo ) .
> 
> Bruce lee did a lot for martial arts , I mean he made it popular and brought it into Mainstream america but he was not a " warrior " or " master " .
> 
> Jet Li has made movies where the film been slowed down to fully capture his movements - yet does that make Jet a bad ass ? Does that make him compareably to Lee in your opinion ?
> 
> Jackie Chan was forced to study for several years and has been in real life fights where if he lost , he likely would have died. how do you think he would have stacked up against Lee ? 
> 
> I think if someone like Lee was put on the ground it would be over for him , someone would not nessicarily have to be incredibly skilled to mess him up on the ground - thats my opinion .
> ...


One thing UFC show's is that everone looses no matter how good they are. A lot of its to do with luck. You could kick a guy in the head and your foot my brake and he might be fine? lol you never now and that's what I like about UFC but the money is getting right in UFC and I would like to see someone use Kung Fu and try take a championship doing so. One think I remember from Bruce Lee is my Sure to warm up. If you don't know he tore his back out doing good moring's in 135 pound bar on his back without warming up.

----------


## KAEW44

i dont believe bruce lee could finish any fighter before he is taken to the ground...many super strikers joined MMA/NHB fights thinking they could do that and they got taken down easier than ever......
It good to know both standup and ground work, and i believe ground has evolved so much today bruce lee would be submitted....just my opinion.

----------


## THA GONZ

> Bruce Lee only studied Wing chun for a few years before going off to make some movies and forming his own style ( Jeet kune doo ) .
> 
> Bruce lee did a lot for martial arts , I mean he made it popular and brought it into Mainstream america but he was not a " warrior " or " master " .
> 
> Jet Li has made movies where the film been slowed down to fully capture his movements - yet does that make Jet a bad ass ? Does that make him compareably to Lee in your opinion ?
> 
> Jackie Chan was forced to study for several years and has been in real life fights where if he lost , he likely would have died. how do you think he would have stacked up against Lee ? 
> 
> I think if someone like Lee was put on the ground it would be over for him , someone would not nessicarily have to be incredibly skilled to mess him up on the ground - thats my opinion .
> ...


Bruce Lee fought many real life fights where if he lost he could possibly be killed. Sometimes against more than one very skilled fighter. Let's not forget that Most of the Asian and Chineese Martial Arts teachers and Masters hated Bruce because he was one of the first to try and teach it to americans and they didn't want that. They would always send their best men to try to take out bruce and never succeded. He would sometimes be beaten up and bloodied, but never lost!!
During the making of "Enter the Dragon" Bruce was also challenged daily by the extras that were their, most of them very skilled and well known martial artists, and he tooled everyone who challenged him in between scenes and didin't even disrupt the filming! 
I have read many books on Bruce and watched most of his films and documentaries. These are all true stories and If anyone dosen't belive them they can look up the info. Its all well documented. 
There is a Bruce Lee documentary out that was made by the director of the original "Enter the Dragon" and it has scores of people and martial artists who knew him talking about Bruce. 
So to answer your last question "Did bruce think he was a bad ass people have him out to be ? did he ever claim he was " the best"?" You bet, in the documentary everyone who knows bruce said he was a great guy, but always felt he was superior to everyone in martial arts and that no one could beat him. They said he was very cocky!! 

With all that being said Bruce Lee was not just a movie figther who never fought in real life. He fought and on the record from any source that knew him, he never lost! He wasn't fighting some idiots of the street either, he was fighting other very skilled martial artists. So yes he was a very tough man. And as for the people who think that Bruce Lee couldn't take a shot from tysonor some of the other bigger guys in the UFC, you might be right, but I can almost guarentee that most of them would never be able to lay a good shot on him. Bruce was much to quick. You have to hit someone to hurt them! Also I am not sure how he was on the ground, but most people would never get him there even on their best day, so I'm sure it wouldn't matter to much.

Also Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun rigorusly from 1954 til about 1960 or 62 and then began to study other forms of martial arts to incorperate into his style which would later be known as jeet kune do. He was well versed in many forms of martial arts and took only the moves he felt worked best from all of them and created his own form. 

Now first off we all have to remember that Bruce would be 64 yeard old if he were alive today. So if we are being hypothetical and assuming Bruce was in his prime today, I personaly think bruce would be able to take out most people today. He was much to quick and powerfull for most fighters even today. He was known to take out people twice his size, and he only weighed around 135-140lbs at his best and 128lbs at the time of his death.

Also if we are assuming Bruce was in his prime today you would also have to assume that Bruce would have included some of the newer methods and moves in his form and would be just as well rounded as anyfighter today if not more. So again Bruce if in his Prime today would tool just about anybody IMO. 

Also if Bruce Lee was still alive today he would have evolved his form with the times and incoperated many newer moves and styles. He was far from done with jeet kune do and if alive today it would IMO be the best and most well rounded form of Martial arts. just my .02

----------


## Rob

Reading all this makes me want to watch a Bruce Lee movie, never seen one before..dude sounds crazy

----------


## marka

very interesting

----------


## Cycleon

to give you an idea of Bruce's strength - although he wieghed about 135 lbs - he could take a 75 lb barbell and strait arm raise it in front of him and hold it for 60 seconds - I doubt many of you here could do that amount much less more than 50% of their weight. And most certainly Bruce was not a movie star who couldnt fight in the real world - an example is jackie chan who is not a bad martial artist and a great stuntman but never has claimed to be a fighter. The essence of fighting was everything for Bruce tho.

Jet Li is also a true bad ass - he is not just a pretty boy - he was the National Martial Arts Champion of China 4 times before the age of 20 years old and no one has ever matched that record of Championships - all before getting into movies and if you know what to look for, you can tell it is the real thing - he is 41 yo now but would still be a very competitive fighter I would guess, tho not on Bruce's level

----------


## TestTubeBaby

thank you cycleon and gonz!! men who know what theyre talking about. hands down, doesnt matter who, bruce would kill them in seconds. try and grapple with bruce? b4 u can even think of trying to grab him ur face will be smashed and ur knee will be broken. YES, that quick. bruce knew how to generate all his body weight and power into a single punch or kick, and at LIGHTNING speed. bruce lee is hands down the greatest fighter to ever live, and im not just talking pound for pound! and to get into more detail, bruces blows deliver devastating damage, externally as well as interally. most remarkable fighter ever. so at 5'8 135 lbs, bruce takes ANY man/men, at any time. FOR SURE. anyone who argues this hasn't done extensive research on bruce lee. bruce lee is one in 20 billion.

----------


## craneboy

no doubt about it bruce lee was a bad mother ****er

----------


## nsa

The best way to fight bruce lee was not to fight him. People who are true martial artists don't attack other people, they defend themselves against attackers. Bruce lee was ridiculously strong and fast. The whole BJ penn thing, dude your an idiot, no way you can ever compare the two. And the whle tyson thing, IMO he's still not as fast as bruce and its debatable whether or not he is stronger than bruce. Sure he's bigger, but bruce was able to do serious damage to people more than twice his size with an inch of space to get his fist moving.

----------


## Gorgoroth_

> The best way to fight bruce lee was not to fight him. People who are true martial artists don't attack other people, they defend themselves against attackers. Bruce lee was ridiculously strong and fast. The whole BJ penn thing, dude your an idiot, no way you can ever compare the two. And the whle tyson thing, IMO he's still not as fast as bruce and its debatable whether or not he is stronger than bruce. Sure he's bigger, but bruce was able to do serious damage to people more than twice his size with an inch of space to get his fist moving.


" People who are true Martial Artists don't attack other people , they defend themselves against attackers " 

- you're refering to people who likely practice asian martial arts and abide by a non-violent ethos , not all Martial Artists are pacifists , if that was the case then Japan should have been conflict free between the heian period (794-1185) and the azuchi momoyama period (1573 - 1603) correct ? Samurai were still very influential throughout Japan ,and they're the " role model martial artists " in terms of discipline and " Code " , yet " Era of Warring states " took place in the Muromachi Period which ended in the year 1573 so no , I do not think " martial artists " only act in self defense - they do not practice what they preach .

Another thing , not all Martial Artist have roots in Asia - For example , look at Rome and Egypt , both had a thriving system of martial arts . Also , France has a form of boxing . Do you think the Romans and the Egyptians were non-aggressors ?

" Bruce lee was ridiculously strong and fast "

There is no denying that he was fast , but I don't think he was capable of putting up any serious weight . 

As for bruce " taking a 75 lb barbell and strait arm raise it in front of him and hold it for 60 seconds " I'd like to see some evidence of him preforming that feat . When you say holding it for 60 seconds do you mean with his arm straight and fully extended ? 

" but bruce was able to do serious damage to people more than twice his size with an inch of space to get his fist moving. "

Ah , the " fabled " one inch punch . IF it could be used in a real fighting situation then we wouldn't be talking about Bruce Lee or Gracie , we would be talking about tai ji quan or one of those " internal " styles . 

Bruce Lee did not event the " One Inch Punch " its actually a fairly old technique is in truth an ancient technique in Weng Shun Kuen. Bruce Lee, who was never tutored in this technique, probably learned it by spying on senior students when he studied wing chun . Because he never got to learning the second form, "Chum Kiu", that trains the footwork that is needed to perform the One Inch Punch correctly, he never got that part right. 

The "One Inch Punch" SHOULD in fact be a "NO INCH PUNCH" ("One Inch is already too far away"). That is how what it was originally intented. Dont forget it is so much older than Bruce Lee. The technique is typical for the Neija (Internal) styles of " martial arts " like tai ji quan and weng shun kuen.

Mike Tyson : he takes his gloves off and hits somene he'd devastate them , if you doubt that then I suggest you go track him down and slap him or something and see how quick he breaks your face . In his Prime he was a juggernaught , he could not be stoped . I am not much of a Tyson fan , but everyone has to admit he had punching power - probably more power than most , if any boxer(s) in recent history . If he hit someone like bruce he'd probably break ( if not shatter ) bones .

Gracie: If he got bruce on the ground it would be , plain and simple. Bruce was likely more comfortable fighting on his feet since wing chun doesn't specialize groundwork. 

In the end it would all depend on if Gracie could get bruce on the ground or if bruce unleashed a vicious kick to the head or something along those lines .

----------


## TestTubeBaby

u dont believe bruce could use fang ji if needed in a fight situation?

----------


## TestTubeBaby

oh and gorgoroth, lol, jet li practiced wu shu! i bet he's a good dancer!

----------


## FRANK WHITE

Totally agree,

I was with Danny Inasonto in the mid 90's and had a chance to learn a lot about Jeet kune Do and Bruce Lee. Cycleon is right. Most people think because he was so small he couldn't take the big UFC guys today. I have to disagree. Bruce was freakishly strong for his size and I"ve heard guys say getting hit by him was like being hit with a sledge hammer. Do some research and you'll see. Bruce was not a normal person. he was that one in a hundred years who was an anomoly in the world. God bless the king.






> but thats also because both of you are thinking that the fight will go to the ground - one thing that you cant get off of the TV is that Bruce would have hit the fighter a few times or simply kicked him once and that could have been enough to end it - his speed was far beyond what I can describe and you will find that they actually slowed down some of his movies so that you could see his hands move - I have trained with one of his students and have seen Ted Wong (Lee's only "pure" student in that he hadnt studied before that) in action and even I who know what to look for could barely see Teds hands move - and I kid you not, the man almost causually kicked a steel pole in the ground 6 feet from me and I could feel the ground vibrate underneath me - very scary dude but you will never see him fight unless you are in a small group
> 
> and lest you think its speed only not strength - only one of Bruce's students was large enough to hold a hand strike leather pad because bruce would punch and it would dislocate the holders arm. Think...the guy with the 1 inch punch that could knock a big guy back 3 feet - what do you think that his kick could do? Once you study the mechanics of what he did, you could appreciate that no one would be able to touch him, probably even today

----------


## chicamahomico

I am also a huge Bruce Lee fan and there is no doubt in my mind that his contributions to MA are among the most important. However, it souunds like some of you guys have watched TBS's Return of the Dragon marathon weekend a few too many times. 

Brude Lee practiced at a time when there was a huge assymetry of information so I don't think you can really make valid comparisons to other fighters in his day (he didn't compete) or to people in our time. Nowadays all the fighters have access to 99.9% of the same information, it's all about motivation, budget, and natural ability, just like any other hight level sport.

----------


## Gorgoroth_

> u dont believe bruce could use fang ji if needed in a fight situation?


Bruce was a smart man. He probably would not have gotten close enough to gracie to attempt the One inch punch out because the likelihood of bruce getting taken to the ground would greatly increase the closer to gracie he got .

----------


## Cycleon

as probably the only one on this board who has actually trained more than 2.5 years in the backyard garage with a direct student of Bruce's and studied real jeet kun do not all this crap that passes off for it these days - I have a certain perspective on things - first of all:

as to the 75lb barbell - Ted Wong told us that he personally saw this done by Bruce a number of times - it was a training regimine - We had to do the same training in our little club - and Ted's Word I think is reliable  :Wink: 

as to there being more information available today - thats the problem, real jeet kun do you cannot get from a book or even watching someone else really - because it is about _feeling_ it and _hearing_ it when you hit a something correctly - and the Innosanto school, I hate to say this but thats not even remotely JKD - everyone in our club (about 4 or 5 max) thought we sucked because we never seemed to get faster with each other....then we would get sent over to the Innosanto school to watch the blackbelts fight..only then we realized how fast we were and how slow everyone else was and how badly they telegraphed

there are no "moves" or forms in real JKD, only drills - I could show you a drill but unless you could do it and then feel it for yourself when it was right, then you would know what I am talking about - and then you would understand why Bruce was far beyond anyone else in the game

and dont worry about the 1" punch..I know how but we never practiced it much...worry about the instant 5' puch - meaning the punch from 5' away that seemed almost instant with no warning - or the kick from 8' away that crushes your ribs  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## FRANK WHITE

> as probably the only one on this board who has actually trained more than 2.5 years in the backyard garage with a direct student of Bruce's and studied real jeet kun do not all this crap that passes off for it these days - I have a certain perspective on things - first of all:
> 
> as to the 75lb barbell - Ted Wong told us that he personally saw this done by Bruce a number of times - it was a training regimine - We had to do the same training in our little club - and Ted's Word I think is reliable 
> 
> as to there being more information available today - thats the problem, real jeet kun do you cannot get from a book or even watching someone else really - because it is about _feeling_ it and _hearing_ it when you hit a something correctly - and the Innosanto school, I hate to say this but thats not even remotely JKD - everyone in our club (about 4 or 5 max) thought we sucked because we never seemed to get faster with each other....then we would get sent over to the Innosanto school to watch the blackbelts fight..only then we realized how fast we were and how slow everyone else was and how badly they telegraphed
> 
> there are no "moves" or forms in real JKD, only drills - I could show you a drill but unless you could do it and then feel it for yourself when it was right, then you would know what I am talking about - and then you would understand why Bruce was far beyond anyone else in the game
> 
> and dont worry about the 1" punch..I know how but we never practiced it much...worry about the instant 5' puch - meaning the punch from 5' away that seemed almost instant with no warning - or the kick from 8' away that crushes your ribs


 Humm, this is interesting. Sifu Danny was in my opinion a great instructor. We were told by Sifu Inosanto that his Jeet Kune Do was a interpretation of Bruce Lee's original art and that it differed somewhat. I remember the first thing I was told was to "Throw away all ideas, patterns, concepts,etc, of what is or isn't Jeet Kune do. We were taught that the classical patterns of Karate dull your creativity. "A bundle of routines is what Sifu Inasonto said Bruce called Kata's. I was taught Jeet Kune Do "Favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms." Quote from Bruce. 
It JKD there was no particular way to perform a skill, just whatever is most effecient. We would master a backfist or a hook kick and apply it if it worked for us. Always asking, "What made it work" We developed our style through hard core trial and error sparring. C, are you sure you sparred with the Inosanto school downtown L.A., or one of there subschools. We gave out no belts, I"m assuming you meant senior students. I heard some bad things about concept JKD schools which did, however. I was at the school on Olympic from 1992-1996. 

I met Ted Wong, I met him at a siminar in Virginia with a Dr. Beasley. I was very impressed. And yes he is a legend in the JKD community. I didn't know he was teaching. You are very lucky to have studied with him privately. He termed his teachings independent karate, isnt' that right C. You must be a disciple of Jun Fan/jeet kune do. Also called the original group,(pre 1973), designed and taught by Bruce Lee. The Inosanto created concept methods stresses that JKD is an expression of 26 arts, with a common thread, that allows the performer to flow from art to art. Even 26 arts is "limiting yourself", so this is not what Bruce would have taught. I know very well that original Jun Fan stressed, "No limitations. I wish I could have studied more with Jun Fan, but at the time I chose the best option I could, and that was Sifu Inosanto. And I'm not complaining. Brandon Lee studied with Sifu Inosanto. I saw him at the Olympic school many times. He was very, very fast. During sparring, it was a five to one ratio in hits in his favor, usually. I once asked Sifu Inosanto about increasing my speed and he said, " Brandon is very fast, but his father was five times faster." I also know that Brandon studied outside the school, possibly with Ted Wong. You may know about this C.

We sparred against many students using different styles and some using strictly interpreted JKD philosophies. I believe if you found us predictable and telegraphic that is not good. However, Sifu Dan's school was more commercial than a garage with 4 or 5 guys and Ted Wong. I would have chosen the garage but I didnt' have that opportunity. I remember Sifu Dan trained us in kali and silat, which he later said was probably a mistake because these styles had particular techniques he found to rigid. The bottom line is that our JKD was bound by no particular interpretation of the skills that Bruce Lee developed. If the JKD students you faced were predictable, then they failed in the JKD philosophy, and I am sorry to hear that. 

"No way is way" Bruce Lee

----------


## chicamahomico

All of the stories I have read or heard about Bruce's condtioning routine and strength are believeable IMO. He was ahead of his time in that arena also. 




> as to the 75lb barbell - Ted Wong told us that he personally saw this done by Bruce a number of times - it was a training regimine - We had to do the same training in our little club - and Ted's Word I think is reliable


I was thinking of the information assymetry more from the sheer openness of MA today compared with 30-40 years ago. That and the ability most people have to travel affordably and the ease of doing so. Not to mention other form s of communication (mags, viceos, seminars, etc). The information out there has not only got better, it's more readily availbale. Back then you were lucky if you could even find someone who was decent to train under (remember the days when people thought Karate BB's were tough guys and MA was some mysterious thing) nowadays you need to work on your mat game fly to MA, work with Jimmy Pedro or spend you 2 week vacation at a Gracie camp in Brazil. 




> as to there being more information available today - thats the problem, real jeet kun do you cannot get from a book or even watching someone else really - because it is about _feeling_ it and _hearing_ it when you hit a something correctly - and the Innosanto school, I hate to say this but thats not even remotely JKD - everyone in our club (about 4 or 5 max) thought we sucked because we never seemed to get faster with each other....then we would get sent over to the Innosanto school to watch the blackbelts fight..only then we realized how fast we were and how slow everyone else was and how badly they telegraphed


I am familiar with drills, I have done them a few times and I actually liked them. Great way to train sensitivity and reaction time. However, IMO there are more fruitful training methods. This is one of the best MA threads on this board IMO. 




> there are no "moves" or forms in real JKD, only drills - I could show you a drill but unless you could do it and then feel it for yourself when it was right, then you would know what I am talking about - and then you would understand why Bruce was far beyond anyone else in the game

----------


## Cycleon

> Humm, this is interesting. Sifu Danny was in my opinion a great instructor. We were told by Sifu Inosanto that his Jeet Kune Do was a interpretation of Bruce Lee's original art and that it differed somewhat. I remember the first thing I was told was to "Throw away all ideas, patterns, concepts,etc, of what is or isn't Jeet Kune do. We were taught that the classical patterns of Karate dull your creativity. "A bundle of routines is what Sifu Inasonto said Bruce called Kata's. I was taught Jeet Kune Do "Favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms." Quote from Bruce. 
> It JKD there was no particular way to perform a skill, just whatever is most effecient. We would master a backfist or a hook kick and apply it if it worked for us. Always asking, "What made it work" We developed our style through hard core trial and error sparring. C, are you sure you sparred with the Inosanto school downtown L.A., or one of there subschools. We gave out no belts, I"m assuming you meant senior students. I heard some bad things about concept JKD schools which did, however. I was at the school on Olympic from 1992-1996. 
> 
> I met Ted Wong, I met him at a siminar in Virginia with a Dr. Beasley. I was very impressed. And yes he is a legend in the JKD community. I didn't know he was teaching. You are very lucky to have studied with him privately. He termed his teachings independent karate, isnt' that right C. You must be a disciple of Jun Fan/jeet kune do. Also called the original group,(pre 1973), designed and taught by Bruce Lee. The Inosanto created concept methods stresses that JKD is an expression of 26 arts, with a common thread, that allows the performer to flow from art to art. Even 26 arts is "limiting yourself", so this is not what Bruce would have taught. I know very well that original Jun Fan stressed, "No limitations. I wish I could have studied more with Jun Fan, but at the time I chose the best option I could, and that was Sifu Inosanto. And I'm not complaining. Brandon Lee studied with Sifu Inosanto. I saw him at the Olympic school many times. He was very, very fast. During sparring, it was a five to one ratio in hits in his favor, usually. I once asked Sifu Inosanto about increasing my speed and he said, " Brandon is very fast, but his father was five times faster." I also know that Brandon studied outside the school, possibly with Ted Wong. You may know about this C.
> 
> We sparred against many students using different styles and some using strictly interpreted JKD philosophies. I believe if you found us predictable and telegraphic that is not good. However, Sifu Dan's school was more commercial than a garage with 4 or 5 guys and Ted Wong. I would have chosen the garage but I didnt' have that opportunity. I remember Sifu Dan trained us in kali and silat, which he later said was probably a mistake because these styles had particular techniques he found to rigid. The bottom line is that our JKD was bound by no particular interpretation of the skills that Bruce Lee developed. If the JKD students you faced were predictable, then they failed in the JKD philosophy, and I am sorry to hear that. 
> 
> "No way is way" Bruce Lee


I really have no complaints against Innosanto because when you have a large commercial school like that its very hard to have the same essence of the garage - because you have to do belts and all that crap to keep people coming so you can pay that massive rent (we didnt have any belts, levels, awards or anything). Now you are right, Frank, that Innosanto didnt have belts either at that time (you were there at the same time I was) but I think they do have some now (but maybe only for kids) - Maybe I was watching you one of those times  :LOL:  . And yes, before JKD I took arnis and escrima where we did a lot of stick fighting and I saw a LOT of philipino influence at the Innosanto school - granted, there are some _very_ talented people over there...its just that its not JKD. You also had a lot more weapons training going on at olympic...which we didnt have much at all.

What i studied was not called JKD out of respect for Bruce- it was called "Modified Accellerated Wing Chun Gung Fu"  :Stick Out Tongue:  Most of the close students wouldnt call it JKD until later when they saw so many people diluting the ideas. Even now, Michael (my instructor) calls it something different "Ballistic Kickboxing".

Funny thing is I was really lucky to get in. Sifu Michael tried to get rid of everyone who called and generally sent you to a different school. And once you got there the first time, he tried to run you off - and of course we had to do the sweeping up, running errands for him, etc before class - and class lasted as long as he wanted it to. It was a really strange deal but I was very lucky to get in it - I just didnt like the idea of being shut out of anything and kept to it.

Michael is still having students I think - If anyone lives in Los Angeles and wants to train with a great teacher let me know and I will give you his contact details.

----------


## KINGKONG

bruce lee was something special I don't think theres been very many men that have lived that could mess with him....

----------


## P Rock

bruce lee was real? i thought he was like a super hero or something....he was the man, kick anyones behind.

----------


## Cycleon

> for the record, bruce DID spar a top grappler of the era "judo" gene lebelle, and got spanked. granted, the guy was much bigger, but the grapplers nowadays are much more skilled. bruce was a tremendous athlete, and had some great ideas, ahead of his time, tried to create MMA b4 it existed, died b4 he could complete the work.



That is a widely held but incorrect legend. What happened is that the stuntmen were horsing around when bruce first came on set of the Green Hornet - his earlier years. He then trained and sparred with gene later. Gene did not "spank" him.

here is Gene's recounting of the event:

----------


## Cycleon

COMING TO GRIPS WITH BRUCE LEE
By Terry L. Wilson



While working on the "Green Hornet," Bruce Lee and Gene LeBell formed a lasting friendship based on martial arts. 

Judo and wrestling legend Gene LeBell has hooked horns with the best in the game and in the process has earned the moniker "The Toughest Man Alive," by his peers. One of those to sing the praises of "Judo" Gene was Bruce Lee. In addition to his years of training and teaching martial arts, Gene is also one of Hollywood's top stuntmen. In fact, it's almost impossible to watch an action film without seeing Gene firing a machine gun, getting tossed out of a window or taking a fall for one of the superstars of the silver screen. 

It was because of Gene's prowess in the martial arts and his popularity in Hollywood's stunt community that he was called in to check out a "new guy" by the name of Bruce Lee. I met Bruce when he was working on the television series, "Green Hornet," I recalled LeBell. Benny Dobbins was stunt coordinator for the show and he called and asked me to check out some kid by the name of Bruce Lee. "I got this guy who does the same stuff you do," Dobbins said. Of course, Benny didn't know the difference between judo and kung-fu, but he wanted me to watch this new actor work. One of the first things I noticed was that although Bruce was small, about 130 pounds, he had a tremendous upper body. Bruce was also very fast and wanted to always take the action beyond what the script called for. Once the director called action, he got that and a lot more from Bruce." 

Bruce Soars to New Heights New to American humor, the Chinese actor didn't know what to make of it when Gene hoisted him over his shoulders and ran up and down the stairs doing a fireman's carry with Lee draped over his shoulders. "Stuntmen and wrestlers have their own brand of humor and at first Bruce didn't take my little joke too kindly," LeBell said with a chuckle. "Eventually he realized we were just welcoming him into our group and before long he fit right in with the rest of the rowdy stuntmen." Gene went on to do stuntwork in many episodes of the "Green Hornet" with Lee. During their time together on the set, the future kung-fu superstar and the legendary judo master got to know each other. "Bruce liked doing parlor tricks on the set," recalled LeBell. "He would make a dollar disappear and other magic tricks. "You've got to remember when I first met him Bruce wasn't famous. Back then he was just another actor who did martial arts." 

Gene's Grappling Lesson LeBell and Lee became friends and frequently trained at each other's dojo. It was during these sessions that Bruce was introduced to Gene's grappling skills, and in return Bruce taught Gene how to kick. "At that time I had a small dojo near Paramount Studios," LeBell explained. "Bruce would come to my school and I'd go to his. Back then he had a small school in Chinatown. We worked out on a one-on-one basis and we both learned a great deal from each other. He taught me a lot of kung-fu moves that I had never seen before, and Bruce was phenomenal with his kicks. He taught me how to do crescent kicks and spinning backkicks. Of course, nowadays everybody does those kicks, but back then it was all new and exciting. In return, I showed Bruce some judo throws and grappling techniques. In fact, he used one of the judo grappling armbars I taught him in Enter The Dragon." 

Although Bruce was impressed with Gene's skill he wasnít taken with grappling as a sport that would ever draw a big audience. "I remember Bruce saying that pro wrestling would never be a popular spectator sport because they spend so much time struggling to get a hold or grip on each other," Gene said. "Bruce would say, "Wrestling is boring and people will turn on another channel." Well, I wonder what Bruce would say if he were around today and saw the WWF, which is the most popular show on television today." 

Grappling's "Green Hornet" As Gene and Bruce continued to work together on the "Green Hornet", the kung-fu star incorporated a few of Gene's judo moves into the action. "There was a couple of times when Bruce threw me using a judo throw during the filming of the ëGreen Hornets," Gene said. "He'd use a shoulder throw on me and I said to him, "Bruce, toss in a couple of your kicks and show off your versatility." Another time I did a martial arts demonstration with Bruce. I was throwing a bunch of people all over the place then Bruce came out and threw me using a judo throw. Iíve even got a tape of that somewhere around the house." Gene also recalled the time when his friend, martial arts legend Bob Wall, called and was all excited about working with Bruce Lee in the film Enter The Dragon. Bob called and said, "This guy is the toughest guy in the world." Of course, I'd been working with Bruce and I told Bob that Bruce was also the nicest guy in the world. Another thing that made Bruce a superstar was his outstanding showmanship and on-screen charisma." The Son Also Rises In addition to working with Bruce, Gene also shared a lot of screen time with his son, Brandon. "Brandon was a very tough martial artist and his dad would have been very proud of him," Gene said. "The way Brandon and I met was kind of funny. Mike Vendrell is a great stuntman as well as an outstanding martial artist and Brandon's kung-fu teacher; well, he frequently worked out with Brandon and one day Mike brought him to my dojo. Mike (Mike Vendrell is a man that Gene respects so much he named a move after him in his Encyclopedia of Finishing Holds: "The Vendrell Vice") introduced us and asked me to work out with Brandon. Brandon said, "You really want me to work with this old man?" Well I was about 50 then so I got on the mat and showed him how sadistic some old men are. (Gene claims he's still an old man and some claim he's just as sadistic. Gene's definition of "sadistic" is administering an attitude adjustment.) We had a lot of fun together and by the end of our workout I think Brandon went away with a newfound respect for judo and senior citizens." Following their initial meeting some time passed before Brandon and LeBell met again. This time it was on the set of the movie Rapid Fire. Gene was naturally playing the bad guy and Brandon the good guy. 

"I was shooting a machine gun and Brandon shot me during a fight sequence," Gene said. "I wanted them to let Brandon beat me up and throw me through a window so I could take some nice falls for him and really show off his martial arts skills. Unfortunately they didn't have time to do the extra stunts and it would have changed the script so Brandon just shot me. Too bad, it would have been fun if he could have beaten me up a little first. Brandon was a great, great athlete. I just wish he coulda beat me up on screen. I mean, every star in Hollywood has beaten me up at one time or another so it would have been nice if Brandon could have done that too." Like his father, Brandon realized that Gene's techniques could greatly augment his fight scenes in the movies so he sought out "Judo" Geneís help to add some throws and locks to his growing martial arts repertoire. 

"Brandon was really into his acting, but he also didn't mind mixing it up on the mat either," Gene said. "He came down to a few classes and we worked out together just like I did with his dad. Brandon was a tough little scrapper." In recounting his experiences with Bruce Lee, LeBell modestly said, "He learned a lot from me and I learned a lot from him. It was a tremendous experience knowing him and Brandon. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have shared mat time with such a nice and talented family." 

Terry L. Wilson is a San Diego, California-based martial artist and freelance writer.

----------


## FRANK WHITE

Nice post C. Think this thread answers the question of Bruce vs. Anybody.

----------


## RockSolid

> Think...the guy with the 1 inch punch that could knock a big guy back 3 feet - what do you think that his kick could do?


honestly I dont buy into that, that is very impossible to do. i respect bruce lee greatly, but sometimes I think he is to overrated.

----------


## sooners04

Bruce Lee would have KILLED Royce Gracie. I still think that the whole Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Ultimate Fighting was set up. Nobody ever heard of this Brazillian Ju-Jitsu fighting untill this 5'10 175lbs man showed up and beat EVERYONE. Now EVERYBODY has jumped on the Ju-Jitsu bandwagon. Take Royce and put him up against someone like the pro wrestler The Giant who is 7'4 450lbs. What is Royce going to do to him. If he tries to tackle him The Giant will just pick him up and break him. Bruce Lee on the other hand would hit and kick the Giant 500 Times before the Giant even knew what the hell was going on. Eventually Bruce would knock the man down.

----------


## Cycleon

> honestly I dont buy into that, that is very impossible to do. i respect bruce lee greatly, but sometimes I think he is to overrated.


I understand...It does seem impossible - but as someone who has done it a little and seen others do it even better - I can tell you that Bruce would have certainly been able to kick butt at 1". While I am out of practice now, I am sure that I could have nocked pretty much anyone on this board backward a step from _my_ puny 1" punch so you can extrapolate from there. 

The reason the 1" is so powerful is because it is the same principle as the whip (main hand strike) - that is completely relaxed until the end of the strike -and it is your whole body sort of having a rippling wave from your toes and ending in the lower 1/2 of your fist - but keep in mind the whole 1" thing is just a demonstrative thing, its not like you would ever do it in a fight - but it is something of the essence of the art

----------


## BOUNCER

> While I am out of practice now, I am sure that I could have nocked pretty much anyone on this board backward a step from _my_ puny 1" punch so you can extrapolate from there.




 :LOL:  When are you coming back to 'The Emerald Isle'  :LOL:

----------


## bitta

I live in charlotte nc and my gym is connected to one of the gracie family ju jitsu studios and have met and talked to royce a few times, most recently was in august, he is a little dude up close its kind of misleading infact, but a couple of us got to talking about k-1 and mike tyson and different cinerios and what royce said himself was that he would crush mike into submission really quickly although he did say that he would have a big problem w/ a fighter who was a very fast percise striker b/c he wouldnt have time to lock w/ someone who is "bruce lee" fast. I remember specifically that he mentioned bruce lee ion his exapmle which leads me to believe that even royce doesnt think he could do it.BTW this black dude they call snake that works out at the gracie gym is a BAD ASS grappler! he was primarily a striker before training w/ them but look for him soon Im sure he will be a rising star.again I would imaginr royce gracie is not too much bigger than lee (his wrists are like 5 inches around) he is a little dude. I know all of you MMA people know all of thier stats and all but I am just a boxer and always have been since 12 yr old. anyone know how much royce weighs?

----------


## RockSolid

> I understand...It does seem impossible - but as someone who has done it a little and seen others do it even better - I can tell you that Bruce would have certainly been able to kick butt at 1". While I am out of practice now, I am sure that I could have nocked pretty much anyone on this board backward a step from _my_ puny 1" punch so you can extrapolate from there. 
> 
> The reason the 1" is so powerful is because it is the same principle as the whip (main hand strike) - that is completely relaxed until the end of the strike -and it is your whole body sort of having a rippling wave from your toes and ending in the lower 1/2 of your fist - but keep in mind the whole 1" thing is just a demonstrative thing, its not like you would ever do it in a fight - but it is something of the essence of the art


that is crazy, i also saw bruce talking about his one finger punch, this man was truly gifted. when i was a kid, fists of fury was one of my favorite movies.

----------


## billy_ba

LMFAO!!! UFC set up hahaha

I know that the original creator of ufc was a member of the gracie family but the reason that they started ufc was because they wanted to prove that their form of martial arts was more effective than any other form in a way that the public could view it and judge for themselves. And they proved it pretty well. The gracies have even challenged several heavyweight boxing champs including mike tyson in the early 90's. Every time they put out a challenge the other guy would either back out or they would lose. The reason you dont see to many other styles in the ufc pride or ther mma competitions anymore is because they got their a$$es kicked so many times that they wont even try to compete anymore. And my favorite line from some of the kung fool guys is that they dont compete because they only fight when it's needed for selfe defense therefore mma competitions would be against their beliefs. HAHAHA...Or the whole death touch thing, f'ing priceless. In my mind silva and coture are by far the toughest out there right now and if any of you think that lee would beat either of them you are just a freakin moron. Everybody wants to think that there is someone that is "super human" that they cant possibly lose because of some mystic martial arts force but when you break it down, a fight is a fight no matter how you look at it and even the top dogs lose so dont believe what you see in the movies because it's not real.
just my .02 




> Bruce Lee would have KILLED Royce Gracie. I still think that the whole Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Ultimate Fighting was set up. Nobody ever heard of this Brazillian Ju-Jitsu fighting untill this 5'10 175lbs man showed up and beat EVERYONE. Now EVERYBODY has jumped on the Ju-Jitsu bandwagon. Take Royce and put him up against someone like the pro wrestler The Giant who is 7'4 450lbs. What is Royce going to do to him. If he tries to tackle him The Giant will just pick him up and break him. Bruce Lee on the other hand would hit and kick the Giant 500 Times before the Giant even knew what the hell was going on. Eventually Bruce would knock the man down.

----------


## TestTubeBaby

bruce could generate so much force/power that he could penetrate an unopened steel coke can with two fingers, as there weren't aluminum cans in the 60s early 70s

----------


## jonnyblade

I would have to say bruce lee was a great fighter and very fast indeed, but he wasnt superhuman, there will always be someone better and faster, especially with drugs, I mean take bruce lee and load him full of winstrol , I bet he would have even been more phenomenal, not to mention other supplements and improved diets that are on the market with all the research that goes into it now. Also fighting is still being perfected, I box and the techniques change all the time, people always find a better way to throw the perfect punch or counter, and when there are guys with a team of coaches from all different flavours of fighting, there just going to keep getting better.

----------


## jonnyblade

Another prime example is Royce Gracie, when he hit UFC 1, he made those guys look like fools, it was pathetic, he gets quite a fight now, half the time he just sits on his back and they tire out before him and make a mistake, I think Royce is a good fighter but he is not well rounded enough, there are too many fighters that can grapple almost as close to his level but can strike 10 times better than him.

----------


## sooners04

> LMFAO!!! UFC set up hahaha
> 
> I know that the original creator of ufc was a member of the gracie family but the reason that they started ufc was because they wanted to prove that their form of martial arts was more effective than any other form in a way that the public could view it and judge for themselves. And they proved it pretty well. The gracies have even challenged several heavyweight boxing champs including mike tyson in the early 90's. Every time they put out a challenge the other guy would either back out or they would lose. The reason you dont see to many other styles in the ufc pride or ther mma competitions anymore is because they got their a$$es kicked so many times that they wont even try to compete anymore. And my favorite line from some of the kung fool guys is that they dont compete because they only fight when it's needed for selfe defense therefore mma competitions would be against their beliefs. HAHAHA...Or the whole death touch thing, f'ing priceless. In my mind silva and coture are by far the toughest out there right now and if any of you think that lee would beat either of them you are just a freakin moron. Everybody wants to think that there is someone that is "super human" that they cant possibly lose because of some mystic martial arts force but when you break it down, a fight is a fight no matter how you look at it and even the top dogs lose so dont believe what you see in the movies because it's not real.
> just my .02


Nobody heard of the Gracie's until UFC. Now everybody is paying $$$$$ to learn the style. The Gracie's became rich off of setting up the UFC and making it look like their style is the best. Good marketing.

----------


## billy_ba

The gracies have been the most popular martial artists in brazil since the 1950's. the reason no one heard of the gracies throughout the rest of the world is because who wants to see martial arts movies where theres not much punching and everyone gets choked out? People want to see flashy dramatic scenes in movies. 




> Nobody heard of the Gracie's until UFC. Now everybody is paying $$$$$ to learn the style. The Gracie's became rich off of setting up the UFC and making it look like their style is the best. Good marketing.

----------


## Juggernaut

> The gracies have been the most popular martial artists in brazil since the 1950's. the reason no one heard of the gracies throughout the rest of the world is because who wants to see martial arts movies where theres not much punching and everyone gets choked out? People want to see flashy dramatic scenes in movies.


**** right! By god when I see a hop&chop I want to see people flying long distances in mid air.....kicked back eatting a sandwich while waiting to reach his opponant. And with a **** load of "Hiiiiiyaaaasss" and "hoooos". Oh, and dubbing.....it won't be worth a **** if the lips match the words spoken. hahahaha

----------


## FRANK WHITE

Albert Einstein once said Mozart was the greates genius the world has ever seen, in any field. Well, do some research and you'll see that Bruce Lee was the Mozart of martial arts. Do some research about the man and form your own opinion.

----------


## jonnyblade

How is Mozart the greatest genius in any field??? It sounds silly, I am sure he was inventing electricity while performing brain surgery and mastering kung fu. He may have been a brilliant man with some new ideas, but put him here today and he wouldnt look so smart, kinda like Bruce Lee, in his day his training was way ahead of the times, guys in the UFC are doing even more improved routines. He would have to catch up and learn everything that has changed since the 70's in sports, training, nutrition and of course advancement in techniques. Maybe then he could win, he probably might need a few thousand dollars in drugs a lot of the other guys are on too.

----------


## FRANK WHITE

When I said greatest field I meant overall. Out of all the geniuses in the world, no matter what they did, he was the greatest. Is that better. And thats not from me but from another great genius, Einstien, who I think would know better than you and me. Einstein said Mozarts music was absolutely perfect in harmony and balance and brilliance. He stated there was nothing that could be improved on. Beethoven wrote many pieces which were variations of other composers works because he thought he could make them better. He also stated he never wrote a variation of a Mozart piece because there was nothing he could do to make it better. To say Mozart would not look smart today with his music either shows that you don't know much about Mozart and the history of classical music or martial arts. Mozart wrote an opera at eight years old, and a good one at that. Ask any musician about Mozart, or any respected martial artist about Bruce Lee and see what they say. Hell, read this thread. Why do you think Bruce Lee is still talked about so much today. Thirty years after his death. When you compare Mozart and Bruce Lee they have this in common. They were extrordinarily talented, and they had an extreme passion for what they were doing. Thats the recipe for greatness.They could not have done anything else and been happy. 




> How is Mozart the greatest genius in any field??? It sounds silly, I am sure he was inventing electricity while performing brain surgery and mastering kung fu. He may have been a brilliant man with some new ideas, but put him here today and he wouldnt look so smart, kinda like Bruce Lee, in his day his training was way ahead of the times, guys in the UFC are doing even more improved routines. He would have to catch up and learn everything that has changed since the 70's in sports, training, nutrition and of course advancement in techniques. Maybe then he could win, he probably might need a few thousand dollars in drugs a lot of the other guys are on too.

----------


## jonnyblade

Who has Bruce Lee even fought?

----------


## KINGKONG

> Who has Bruce Lee even fought?


He used to fight competively if Iam not mistaken....So lots of bad-ass asian guys....

----------


## jonnyblade

I have been looking into this for the last bit, and Bruce Lee has no professional fighing experience, he fought many street fights when he was a young boy like 10-14 he claims. There have been a few witnesses say they seen him fight in the states but the stories are conflicting and not reliable. Apparently not many people even witnessed him spar. At first I thought Bruce was the champion of his era, but there is nothing really to base it on other than his demonstrations of technique or skill. I mean you see guys breakin bricks, beach rocks, lifting a few hundred pounds or being able to hit like Tyson with brass knuckles, but it still doesn't make you the toughest man in the world. In that case look out everyone Butter Bean is my new champion lol. jk

----------


## KINGKONG

Studied Wing Chun under the instruction of Yip Man. Learned as far as the second hand form and part of the wooden dummy form. Didn't finish the wooden dummy form, learn the third hand form or weapons forms. With Wong Sheun-Leung, William Cheung, and others, made Wing Chun famous in Hong Kong by winning numerous challenge matches against other martial artists. 
this is off his biography and this is before he studied another five years before doing his first movie...He was famous before he did movies because he was the greatest fighter around...why else did they put him in flicks in asia?Also didn't the martial arts 
powers to be send over two of the best fighters to challenge him for the right to teach americans his skillz...Supposedly he beat them both then slept for 48 hours straight...That always impressed me,his storing of power and then how he could release it like that and wear himself to sleep...As to say you cant find any of his matches,well they would have been in china in the 50's..I highly dought those secret ass PPL even kept records back then they knew who was the baddest...

----------


## jonnyblade

Yeah I have been looking more into this and he did fight quite a bit in Hong Kong but it was in his teens, he left when he was 19 and came to the USA where he went to school. He did not appear to fight after that, other than Wong Jack Man a famous Kung Fu teacher and he did beat him. After this it was all movies, I would have to say if he had a prime it was when he was 18 or 19 when he was in the ring. In order to be on top you have to be fighting alot. In my opinion he reinvented martial arts, a lot of contenders looked up to him for his wisdom, but when he got put on the big screen it made him bigger than he actually was.

----------


## RoChamp

Hell, why not throw in my two cents?

First, to mention that I belive Bruce Lee to have been an incredible fighter. The man had speed to spare, and if you think for a moment about this statement, you will see that it means something. Speed to spare in a fight is something that no current fighter (k1, pride, ufc, etc) has. 

I have also noticed on these forums, and on many others, a general habit of stating that "if the kung fu people don't come to fight in the UFC then it must mean kung-fu is ****". I live my life as a cocky man, I belive it's the essence of masculinity, but there's a big difference between cocky and stupid. To state that is to prove that you have no understanding of psychology, of social psychology, of various cultural differences, and that you have probably gone through life up to now not as a cocky man but as a cocky idiot. The few gung-fu fighters that have fought in the ufc had been brought up in a western environement. Just some food for thought; I could write pages upon pages about this only to have it dismissed in a few unreasonable sentences...therefore, I will not. 

My appreciation for kung-fu began 6 years ago. In the gym owned by one of my friend worked out a romanian kickboxer (this happens in Romania), who was a pro fighter in France. The guy was about 250 pounds, not lean but certainly muscular, and he could bench 460 pounds. He had the whole package, lower and upped body strenght (can't remember his squat max though...not that it ****ing matters anyhow). He had also done grappling, and fought in lower K-1 events. One of the man's problems was that he never got off the juice and that probably kept him from advancing in the sport. At the same gym trained a 40 something year old kung-fu 'teacher'. He taught his classes in a small gym that was maybe 2 minutes walk from my friend's gym. The guy was tall and bony, but only weighed around 190 pounds. Somehow they end up heading for his gym (with half the guys who were training at that hour following them, including me), where they fight with gloves, kickboxing rules. 
The kung fu guy abandons after a short fight. He didn't stand back, they went at it all out, and even though he had superiour technique and speed (he really did seem to fight well with gloves, the fight wasn't too unbalanced for a short while) strenght won. He couldn't hurt him, yet got hurt plenty. But that was just the first fight of the day, because a few minutes after he challenges the kickboxer to a bare knuckles fight, ground rules included (stipulated by the kickboxer who had grappling training, as mentioned earlier). 
He used what I later found out to be eagle-claw. He used what I later found out to be continuity, the ideea that impact and pain have an effect upon the human body, and that effect can be used to gain time and neutralise attacks. Now, remember, this guy wasn't extremely fast, or conditioned, he was a man with (later found out) 17 years kung fu experience, and a few amateur competitions under his belt. But the difference between the way he fought with gloves and the way he fought without gloves made me realise that there is something there, something that goes beyond simply closing your fist and throwing a big one. He wasn't touched in the second fight. He later told me that he could have used finger strikes to the eyes, and I fully belive him. I belive him because he knocked out the kickboxer with a spinning jump kick to the face/head. Sure, sounds fantastic, but I was there and I saw it. It came right after various palm strikes to the head, neck and sternum/plexus, which had his opponent unable to see. Tears from the impact to his face. 
What I saw there was a man whom I later found out trained for a couple of years in China, play with an experienced kickboxer (pro) much heavier than him. He made a ****ing show out of it. And he is the first to admit that he is just an average, aging fighter, although he has quite some street happenings behind him.

Bruce Lee? The guy was unbelivable. Sincerely...I'd like it to be true that he was a fake. I'd like all the kung fu **** to be untrue. Because I'm 40 and I've spent my life as a competitive bodybuilder, doing bag work and some kickboxing. It's better for me to belive that big muscles are best for punchng strenght, and that technique means putting on a glove and going at it. It's better, but not true.

----------


## jonnyblade

Excerpt from above.
First, to mention that I belive Bruce Lee to have been an incredible fighter. The man had speed to spare, and if you think for a moment about this statement, you will see that it means something. Speed to spare in a fight is something that no current fighter (k1, pride, ufc, etc) has. 


Of course he weighted 135lbs, a featherweight will always look like lightning against a heavyweight, but heavyweights always hit harder, thats why they divide them. That is also why you dont see lightweights in these tournaments, maybe grapplers might or if they actually have a lightweight category. It is like Lennox Lewis vs. Oscar DeLaHoya toe to toe Oscar is just too small.

----------


## RoChamp

Maybe you don't watch K-1 around here, but just a few days ago...Kaoklai KOd Mighty Mo.....................................

----------


## jonnyblade

No, I find K-1 not that great, its kind of going the halfway to reality fighting. You also have to realize its not quite on par with pro boxing with equal fighters. You could have someone the equivalent of Lennox Lewis fighting ButterBean. But back on the subject its far from a fighting event, you could be a K-1 champ and still be made a fool in the ring in a reality fighting tournament with less rules.

----------


## FRANK WHITE

Nice Post RoChamp.

----------


## Cycleon

Yeah - one thing I can tell you is gloves make a huge difference - especially with the speed/visibility of the hand - and the trapping, the tiny grab or sliding hand of chi sau (sticky hands) that extends into a gale force punch - these kind of things are very hard to do with most fighting gloves

another thing - we never blocked, it was a jam (why speed is so important), deflection or usually just shifting weight to avoid it - one reason speed and sensitivity training is so important - but the idea is an intercepting fist, really no need to ever block unless totally blindsided - and in some sense, we were very good a grappling in upper body - but usually it was just for the purpose of seeking an opening to strike - and of course when we got one in, ususally that could be followed by 4 or 5 more as they were falling back - if you ever hear someone in a gym on a heavy bag (no gloves of course) and it sounds like a machine gun hitting it...that is probably someone from our class or a rare one similar to it

----------


## BOUNCER

If all this were true, why isn't there some old Fung Fu guy cleaning up in heavy weight boxing and making a pile of money?, or any other big money event for that matter?...

----------


## ironfist

> If all this were true, why isn't there some old Fung Fu guy cleaning up in heavy weight boxing and making a pile of money?, or any other big money event for that matter?...


That's what I am saying...Surely he has a pupil somewhere that can beat the hell out of any BJJ guy if it were true...

----------


## AG5678

> bruce lee studied grappling but not on the level of technique that there is today. Modern grappling has evolved tremendously in the past 20 years. I would say that bruce lee could hang with someone his size during his time but in todays time, someone like bj penn would hand him his ass. If lee was alive today and trained todays techniques he would probably be the best at his weight. old lee vs new fighters, lee would lose every time.


**** NO Bruce lee was the best fighter and always will be the best fighter.

----------


## jonnyblade

> **** NO Bruce lee was the best fighter and always will be the best fighter.




That comment is ridiculous, it is the equivelent of ben johnson will always be the fastest man.

----------


## Monkeytown

I gotta get in on this one. I've had the pleasure of studying JKD for 2 years (wish it had been more). I also studied Isshin Ryu Karate and kickboxing. IMHO JKD was FAR superior to both of those or any other martial art that I have seen. The things that Bruce Lee combined to create JKD....Wing Chun, Boxing, Fencing. He searched different fighting methods and pulled the best from each.

I think it would be a toss up in an MMA fight between BL and Gracie. However, on the street where there are no rules BL would have killed Gracie. He would have access to all of his weapons like the Bil Jee, Jik Tek to Groin think longest weapon to the closest target.

Cycleon - I agree with your posts about BL having unnatural strength and speed, he was the man.

----------


## phwSSJ

Bruce Lee started studying grappling but did not have the chance to get into it cuz he died. MMA is pretty much what Bruce Lee was trying to make mainstream, finally it happened. To bad he isnt alive to see it.

RIP Bruce!!!
May God have mercy on his soul!

----------


## Joey2ness

No!!!
UFC dudes wont even try punching the dude since hes so fast
there tackle him to the floor and a guy who is fast on his feet isn't that fast on the floor

I see Bruce Lee as a movie martial arts man and nothing else

----------


## KINGKONG

> No!!!
> UFC dudes wont even try punching the dude since hes so fast
> there tackle him to the floor and a guy who is fast on his feet isn't that fast on the floor
> 
> I see Bruce Lee as a movie martial arts man and nothing else


Too bad,the man was an amazing martial artist and deserves respect for making himself that way...

----------


## Tags

Seems like there's a lot of these threads... Anyways read some of Bruce Lee's books, watched the movies... I would definately put my money on Bruce Lee.  :Chinese:

----------


## 1819

> Bruce Lee would have KILLED Royce Gracie. I still think that the whole Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Ultimate Fighting was set up. Nobody ever heard of this Brazillian Ju-Jitsu fighting untill this 5'10 175lbs man showed up and beat EVERYONE. Now EVERYBODY has jumped on the Ju-Jitsu bandwagon. Take Royce and put him up against someone like the pro wrestler The Giant who is 7'4 450lbs. What is Royce going to do to him. If he tries to tackle him The Giant will just pick him up and break him. Bruce Lee on the other hand would hit and kick the Giant 500 Times before the Giant even knew what the hell was going on. Eventually Bruce would knock the man down.


hit me 500 times with a fly swatter and i will laugh in your face. so many people put so much emphisis on speed. yes speed is power but only to an extent. a 22 bullet coming out of a gun travels a hell of alot faster than a 12 guage slug. rather get hit with the 22. felix trinidad would hit mike tyson 50 times in the face before mike hit him once. so what? you think any of those would matter? pure fact. a 135lb individual, no matter how tough and how fast, just cannot hurt the bigger man. we are not talking about regular guys off the street. im talking about elite athletes, all things being equal, the man who can take the punch will survive. how many lbs per sq. inch can a 135lb man possibly hit? no way its anywhere near 1000 or 1200. thats what it takes to knock out some of the big guys. take a phone book and put it to your head and let marc mcguire swing at it. that will give you a rough idea of how hard a punch from a heavyweight fighter is coming. bruce, unbelievible human. just not big enough. let him hit gracie all he wants. not gonna hurt him.

----------


## dingobite

Thats not completely true if you had a 16 year old well built and very much aware of his game he could do some damage to a 30 year in his physical prime.
Not to say theres alot of 16 year olds out there that could really do some damage out of their age range.


As for lee he was far from a sissy with his quick punchs.

----------


## J.S.N.

> How is Mozart the greatest genius in any field??? It sounds silly, I am sure he was inventing electricity while performing brain surgery and mastering kung fu. He may have been a brilliant man with some new ideas, but put him here today and he wouldnt look so smart...


that's not a very well-informed opinion at all. mozart taught himself to play violin at four, could write entire masses and symphonies in his head, had perfect pitch, wrote his first symphony when he was seven, improvised several-voiced fugues when he was five, and wrote music so accessible yet complex it's beyond comprehension.

the man was a supergenius. nothing comes close to the the multitonal complexity of the final movement of "jupiter" while at the same time being well-developed _and_ listenable.

----------

