# STEROIDS FORUM > SARMs (Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators) Information Forum >  Endus's Sarm S4 (lyons) log

## endus

*Warning* - this post is long and I'm letting you know up front that I'm not the greatest wordsmith nor a grammatical cop. 



This is 8th day from start of my SARM S4 cycle (10/31/09) and I believe I have enough data/observations to start a log at this point - hope you find it useful. 

First my stat - 

Age 44 - really ugly fat bastard  :Smilie: 

Weight 200

BF - 20% been on cutting cycle, started at 25% and hope to gp down to 15% or less.

Previous cycles - done Test E in my mid 30's and finished Bold/Havoc PH cycle this past Aug.

known Issues - I have a right elbow tendinitis and a left knee (runners knee) pain. The right elbow pain only affect certain movements (specific bicep workout or upright row are tough) but does not interfere with any other movements. No problem with leg movement for any exercises.

Point of interest - I was primarily interested in SARM S4 for a TRT application. It seem to have all of the plus without the side effect. If this doesn't work, I'm going to start a Test E cycle first, then probably TRT later on. By the way, I did take a picture of myself but after seeing how some of you guys are so in shape, I'm just to self conscious to post. I hope to post when I reach my goal - hope you understand.

So from my college chem/bio days, here's entry from my lab journal (I'm the test mice),

*Pre - start:* 

Ordered from Lyon on Tuesday night, delivered on Saturday morning (10/31). No delivery notice was sent to my email account but I've check their website (login required) and it showed the tracking info - so I knew when it was going to be here.

*Day 1 thru 3:* 

No effect. Dosage was 50mg divided into 3 un-equal doses (1ml = 50mg, 1/4 ml at 9:00am, 1/2 ml at 4:30 pm and 1/4 ml at 11:00pm) The mixture has slight hint of menthol with head scalping benzene taste. Yuck. Its really good to have a small treat like candy or chocolate to get rid of the awful taste.

*Day 4:*

No effect. I did noticed a slight dizziness immediately after 5:00pm and 11:00pm doses. 

*Day 5:* 

No day time effect. Had a great shoulder workout and increased my seated shoulder press by 20lb. I can't attribute this to SARM as this is happens to me occasionally with burst of energy/strength. We'll see if next week's shoulder workout will confirm this strength increase.

Panic Attack? After taking my last dose, I had my first vision problem. The vision toward either side was severely limited and had a bit of panic attack as it was quite severe or was not expecting it at this point. Its a very eery feeling where you could see things in front of you but limited in field of vision to the side and its blurred. I've lay ed on my bed feeling panicked but by 2:00am, the effect have subsided a bit. Fell a sleep after that. 

*Day 6:*

I haven't noticed anything special during the day. I've did noticed that everything is much more yellower than normal. Didn't pay particular attention to this effect. The night vision effect is still present but not as severe as yesterday.

The vision issue is not constant. It seems to come and go. At most, I'm feeling it for about 1/2 hour, then everything is fine. And later, get slight less severe then disappear again.

The last dose (11:00pm) wasn't as bad as yesterday but I definitely do notice something right after taking SARM. Sort of bit dizzness then vision is changed - blurred, and bit later, night vision issue.

Note: based on half-life discussion on the board, I'm thinking if changing the dose frequency will have any effect. I will try something different tomorrow to see if it does.

*Day 7:*

I've decided to change the frequency to twice a day instead of three. Today, I will be taking 9:00am and 5:00pmdoses and skip the 11:00pm dose - Still 50mg/2x total.

I took the last dose at 4:30pm. 

Around 6:30pm, I went shopping with my wife and on the way back at 7:20pm, on a particularly dark street, I couldn't see my wife sitting right next to me. This is very dis-heartening.

At 9:00pm, I had to go out again on same streets and I did not have any issue with side vision.

Note/Conjecture - this is probably a good point for discussion about half life. I think there is a very specific active period for SARM (Lyon's version anyway). This is based on how it affect my vision at certain time after each dose. I hope others could duplicate this scenario to see if effect is same.

Noticed yellow tint is present at all time.

At 11:00pm I did not notice any vision issue. Slightly blurry at times, but nothing like day 4-5.

I was going to take another dose at 11:00pm to see if symptom will return but didn't want to risk it. The vision problem will be issue for many people and if it gets more severe, I will probably terminate this cycle - lets hope not.

Day 8 - Today, I've decided to change the frequency again - to once a day. I took the only dose of 50mg at 9:30am. Today was off day.

Noticed slight blurring but nothing that couldn't be handled. No yellow tint all day but came back around 4:40pm (right around when sun is nearly gone). By 5:10pm, the tint was severe (outside was dark at this point).

The night vision - other than slight blurriness, it was fine (thank god). Again, I think there's definitely half life issue that could be worked out so that night vision issue can be minimized. For example, if I could figure out when to take it so that it will still be active for my work out session but be past the half life point by time evening comes around. I hope someone else could duplicate this - I will try more next week to see if there's optimal time.

Note: my joint/tendinitis issue is about same or actually got worst. 

Edit - I forgot, I got some Acne problem yesterday/today. I've noticed that I'm getting mild acne under my chin and on my chest. I don't usually get Acne, so I assume this is from SARM? I haven't read this issue before. Got some benzoil pad to deal with this issue.

Well, that it for now. Next week will be interesting as SARM has already taken effect on my body (vision wise anyway). Tomorrow is my chest day - I hope I could lift 1000lb  :Smilie: 

Cheers!

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## bass

endus, this is the first I’ve heard vision sides from 50mgs per day, mine was gradual and never reversed, basically it kept getting worse every day. Even now that my vision is coming back its gradual, not sure why yours comes and goes! Anyway, i hope you can finish your cycle and get some good results. I’ll be watching...and for your joint (I am assuming your elbow) try this technique and see if it helps, look at my post with illustration photos…http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=389604 

BTW, i was timid to post my photo as well, but thought it was important to show people so they can give me their opinion of my progress...

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## endus

> endus, this is the first Ive heard vision sides from 50mgs per day, mine was gradual and never reversed, basically it kept getting worse every day. Even now that my vision is coming back its gradual, not sure why yours comes and goes! Anyway, i hope you can finish your cycle and get some good results. Ill be watching...and for your joint (I am assuming your elbow) try this technique and see if it helps, look at my post with illustration photoshttp://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=389604 
> 
> BTW, i was timid to post my photo as well, but thought it was important to show people so they can give me their opinion of my progress...


Thanks for the info on joint issue.

The vision problem is actually getting worst. I had a hard time driving home today - field of view is cut in half where outer half is dark gray. If vision problem gets any worst, I will have to stop as its too dangerous to drive on busy highway at night. Yes I could see things in front but its the side and further out that worries me.

As for strength gain or whatnot, I haven't felt it yet. My workout tonight was good but nothing that would indicate I'm using something more than a OTC supplements like creatine or Arginine-K type. Maybe its still too early? There's nothing like that Euphoric feeling you get from AAS gear or even designer gears. When I did Bold/Havoc cycle two months ago, I felt like I could destroy anything.

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## endus

Day 9 Update:

I stuck with single dose to see if it will help with my vision issue (9:30am, 50mg). It actually got worst. The best way to describe my vision issue is - driving with your sunshade down. My field of view is restricted. Its not a true tunnel vision but fairly close. At time its severe enough where it could become issue in busy highway.

Again, the vision issue is not constant. It sort of comes and go but does not fully disappear. I would guess I've lost about 20% of vision capability and yellow tint as constant.

Today was my chest day and my workout was good but no noticeable strength gains.

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## elpropiotorvic

bass did u try to supplement with a vitamin ?

maybe s4 somehow gets rid of it or makes ur body not absorb it fully, and fvcks u up....
endus id give it a shot and report.....btw id give a high dose a shot just to make sure improvements can be measured with a good dose

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## bass

> bass did u try to supplement with a vitamin ?
> 
> maybe s4 somehow gets rid of it or makes ur body not absorb it fully, and fvcks u up....
> endus id give it a shot and report.....btw id give a high dose a shot just to make sure improvements can be measured with a good dose


the only supplement i am taking for joints is Apex Joint support which has glucosamine and chondroitin with MSM...it seems to be helping...

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## bass

> Day 9 Update:
> 
> I stuck with single dose to see if it will help with my vision issue (9:30am, 50mg). It actually got worst. The best way to describe my vision issue is - driving with your sunshade down. My field of view is restricted. Its not a true tunnel vision but fairly close. At time its severe enough where it could become issue in busy highway.
> 
> Again, the vision issue is not constant. It sort of comes and go but does not fully disappear. I would guess I've lost about 20% of vision capability and yellow tint as constant.
> 
> Today was my chest day and my workout was good but no noticeable strength gains.


Endus, really sorry to hear about your vision, i hope you find a way to work around it...

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## endus

> bass did u try to supplement with a vitamin ?
> 
> maybe s4 somehow gets rid of it or makes ur body not absorb it fully, and fvcks u up....
> endus id give it a shot and report.....btw id give a high dose a shot just to make sure improvements can be measured with a good dose


I will actually be doing that - to 100mg today. I already got the vision problem, may as well to see if higher dose will actually do anything with the strength.

Again, if this compound does anything, you don't feel it like AAS or prohormone. There's none of that Euphoric or invincible feeling. When I was on my last cycle, I actually had to limit my weight because I knew it could be trouble on my joints.

The vision side is bit too much - I just don't know how you could function with reduced night vision. Its enough to affect even going to a local convenient store and I go there a lot during the night.

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## Okinawa_Power

> I will actually be doing that - to 100mg today. I already got the vision problem, may as well to see if higher dose will actually do anything with the strength.
> 
> Again, if this compound does anything, you don't feel it like AAS or prohormone. There's none of that Euphoric or invincible feeling. When I was on my last cycle, I actually had to limit my weight because I knew it could be trouble on my joints.
> 
> The vision side is bit too much - I just don't know how you could function with reduced night vision. Its enough to affect even going to a local convenient store and I go there a lot during the night.


That is why i'm taking it with a prohormone......I just want it to help out with my sore joints......I am having issues with vision also.....At night can't see to far in front of me and the sides are like gone....Sucks but I only have 25 more days......I think I can hack it.......

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## endus

> Endus, really sorry to hear about your vision, i hope you find a way to work around it...


I really do hope so Bass. Will try few more things including increasing dosage to see if at least my strength will go up.

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## endus

> That is why i'm taking it with a prohormone......I just want it to help out with my sore joints......I am having issues with vision also.....At night can't see to far in front of me and the sides are like gone....Sucks but I only have 25 more days......I think I can hack it.......


I wished I could of too but I'm in between cycle. I was losing BF to do a test E cycle in Jan and will do that anyway if I terminate this early.

The whole reason why I've started my dose low was to keep the vision issue away and to see if I could do this for 10-12 weeks (like AAS cycle). I guess thats now out of question  :Frown:  

Be careful driving at night, the capability is really reduced and your reaction time is affected - which I found out yesterday while driving home. I was lucky and only got honked !

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## elpropiotorvic

Okinawa why don't u give a vitamin a shot ... And see if it helps...

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## endus

> Okinawa why don't u give a vitamin a shot ... And see if it helps...


What do you mean by that - multi-vitamin ? Did it work for you? Thanks

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## elpropiotorvic

I mean vitamin A , which is used to make visual pigments in the eyes

try a good dose to see if vision improves

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## endus

> I mean vitamin A , which is used to make visual pigments in the eyes
> 
> try a good dose to see if vision improves


It doesn't seem to do any good - one of the vet from another board mentioned that he tried lutien and bilberry and it also didn't helped any.

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## Okinawa_Power

> Okinawa why don't u give a vitamin a shot ... And see if it helps...


Elpropiotorvic I will give it a try. Thanks for bringing it up, it can't hurt.....Thanks again.

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## elpropiotorvic

O prob man ^^ but I'm very intrigued as to what exactly causes the vision it would be great if they could modify the product

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## endus

> O prob man ^^ but I'm very intrigued as to what exactly causes the vision it would be great if they could modify the product


I been doing heck of lot of reading in many boards and conclusion is - no one knows. There's lot of conjecture but nothing concrete nor anything that worked.

Some are actually saying don't take eye supplements as it accelerate the issue - so confusing and no help. And no one know if there will be any issue in the future (even if symptom goes away after stopping).

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## endus

Day 10 update:

Well I decide to say heck with it and up the dose to 120mg x 2. My vision problem isn't going away and I'm not feeling anything at 50mg. 

I worked my back/tri - workout was excellent but nothing that would indicate much strength gain. 

The vision problem is still there and is bit more pronounced. The yellow/green tint is near constant - fading out once in a while. 

I've been doing lots of reading lately due to the vision problem and I found one log where a guy was doing 5 days on and 2 days off routine and that mitigated some of the vision issue. He is conjecturing that 2 day off is clearing out whatever particle that is binding to his eye. So I may do this routine to see if it helps.

I also have a worst acne issue. I don't usually get acne, even when I was doing AAS or Prohormone. Its on underside of my face (below ear to chin) and on my chest. I'm using a clearcil to combat this but it itch so bad. It is drying out now at this point.

Sorry to be a downer and not make some interesting post about my incredible strength gains or weight loss but its not happening, yet - this vision issue is much greater than I originally thought! I am trying to find a way to stick with the program though. Thanks for reading.

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## elpropiotorvic

The symptoms do go away after stoppage... Everymember from this board that has tried reported it goes away

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## endus

> The symptoms do go away after stoppage... Everymember from this board that has tried reported it goes away


I'm not too worry about that - rather, reduced driving capability at night. That would stop me long before any harm done to me. And I'm sort of hypochondriac, so I go overboard with some concerns. Thanks!

Oh I've also tried Visine A (allergy version) and just normal eyedrop and neither helped.

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## endus

I've waited a bit to try few things and here's what has happened since my last post.

As mentioned, I've increased my dosage to 100mg or slightly bit more per day and I think this did the trick. My strength have increased noticeably. 

Here's some notables,

Day 11 (Shoulder day) - I typically work my way up to 110lbx6-8 for a shoulder press. Today I was able to do move it up to 160lb x 6. A new record for me. Everything else also went up by about 10%

Day 12 (Leg day) - I was able to add another 50lb (from 290 to 340 x 6) on my squat and leg press (490 to 540lb). I was barely able to walk to my car - a good leg day.

Day 13-15 - rest day

Day 16 - (Chest day) I've actually lost some strength today but I think this was due to a lack of food/carb during the day. I've also did a 30 mile bike ride, so that probably took whatever energy I've had. I did 90x8 dumbell press instead of 100x8. Everything else also went down by 5-10lb. Hopefully it will be better tomorrow when I have a better nutrition.

Other observations - I've noticed a huge increase in libido - which is what I was really after since I was considering TRT at some point in my life. I had a morning wood every day and I normally don't get these at all. So this is indeed a good news for those who are looking at this from a different perspective.

As for the vision problem - most of the symptoms are still there but it has improved quite a bit. The tint seems to come and go and are only bothersome at for short time. At the same time, I got used to slight decrease in night vision and tint - so its definitely livable given the positive vs. negative. 

I think this week will be a important gauge for me to see if increased strength is not a fluke. That's about it for now and thanks for reading.

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## bass

great, i am glad it’s finally kicking in, and wow, that’s a great % strength increase...keep us posted

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## Okinawa_Power

I am glad you are working around the vision problem you had....As for the strength increase that is great!!! Keep pounding out those heavy weights!!!!! Post some pictures so we can see the results you are getting.....

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## elpropiotorvic

Aré u still using the eye support thingies ?

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## endus

> great, i am glad its finally kicking in, and wow, thats a great % strength increase...keep us posted


Will do - Hopefully it will keep increasing. Thanks!

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## endus

> I am glad you are working around the vision problem you had....As for the strength increase that is great!!! Keep pounding out those heavy weights!!!!! Post some pictures so we can see the results you are getting.....


Yeah, the vision thing kind of scared me a bit - I've seemed to got hit badly than most. But its mostly gone now so I could concentrate on more important thing.

I'm taking pics as I go along, just haven't had time to transfer the pics. I'm trying to find one of my old pic so that people know where I started last year.

I'm definitely going to do longer term testing - but next cycle, I'm going to add bunch of orals for mental euphoria that I get from AAS/PH and/or quicker start.

Cheers!

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## endus

> Aré u still using the eye support thingies ?


No I have not other than a daily vitamin (multi from Target). The vision actually improved quite a bit when I increased the dosage - weird. Either I got used to the compound or my body adjusted to decreased vision. Either way, its much better than 1st week where I almost stopped.

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## endus

Day 17 - (Back day)

I don't think my strength increase was/is a fluke. After yesterday's bad nutrition (not enough carb), I had plenty today for a workout.

On barbell row, I went from 140lb to 170lbx6 and 200lb to 240lbx6 on cable row.

Day 18 - off day.

I'll have two more days left for Sling-shot routine and next week, I'll be changing things around to a new routine. The new routine is even simpler in that you only do one set per body part. I'm also moving from from 4 day workout to 3 days. 

In case you're interested in other aspect/potential of S4 - my libido is insane, its even better than when I was doing PH. All without the side effects. You definitely don't need Viagra. Too bad I'm freaking married (those who's been married long know what I'm talking about)  :Smilie:  Acne issue is also dissipating - skin is peeling a bit from Oxy but no new ones. 

cheers

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## bass

you will post pics, right?

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## elpropiotorvic

i want to get to the bottom of the vision problem...want to know if it goes away with the bloody A vitamin.....someone

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## endus

> you will post pics, right?


I will but let me finish the cycle. I'm already self conscious... then comes Okinawa with his monster profile - yikes!

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## endus

> i want to get to the bottom of the vision problem...want to know if it goes away with the bloody A vitamin.....someone


I thought Okinawa was doing that. If he's is not, then I will. I still have few more weeks to go. I will most likely finish 100mg cycle on 1st week of Dec. However, I'm still going to test till new year at 20mg. I want to see if 20mg at that point will do anything and/or get rid of vision problem.

I'll get some vitamin A tonight. By the way, why vitamin A? Because retinoid?

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## Okinawa_Power

> i want to get to the bottom of the vision problem...want to know if it goes away with the bloody A vitamin.....someone



Vit A not a fix...Been in my system for 7 days now and still seeing the world with a yellow tint.......I took 1500mg of Vit A everyday for the last 7 days.....

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## endus

> Vit A not a fix...Been in my system for 7 days now and still seeing the world with a yellow tint.......I took 1500mg of Vit A everyday for the last 7 days.....


Crap - just bought some!

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## endus

Another record - I now don't have any doubt about S4 and strength increase.

Day 19 (shoulder):

I've increase my shoulder press by another 10lb but big increase was on Upright row - I've went up another 20lb! 

Day 20 (legs):

This is where I've set a new record. I did my squat at 3 plates like normal but felt light. Did it anyway to failure and did 2 more reps.

The leg press was another matter - I've warmed up with 5 plate and went up to 7 plates and still felt like I could of went another 1/2 plate. I got tired more from loading and unloading the plate.

Another strange thing - other than couple of occasion, everything looked normal. No yellow tint - weird! Again it comes and go but it was wonderful to see normal colors.

One other development - I've decided to hire an online trainer. I found 2 guys - Shelby Starnes or Phil Hernon. Anybody heard of these guys? I seen their transformational stuff and looks amazing. I'm not ready for AAS due to my high fat % or length of workout at this point, so I figure this would be a better course (I know, S4 was done on a whim).

Yes Bass, I'll have to take several pics to send it to these guys so I'll post  :Smilie: 

Cheers.

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## bass

wow this is great endus, i am glad to see the S4 is working for you, reading your log, big O's (Okinawa_Power ) and Oh Realy makes me look forward to my next cycle...

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## lifterjaydawg

glad to see the S4 is working so well with the strength gains. I should be getting mine at the start of the year and will do a sarms s4 log as well. thanks for all the great information.

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## endus

> wow this is great endus, i am glad to see the S4 is working for you, reading your log, big O's (Okinawa_Power ) and Oh Realy makes me look forward to my next cycle...


Thanks - PM sent.

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## endus

> glad to see the S4 is working so well with the strength gains. I should be getting mine at the start of the year and will do a sarms s4 log as well. thanks for all the great information.


Thanks - glad bunch of us are logging so others could see. Make it feel little better with research liquid. cheers

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## Okinawa_Power

> Another record - I now don't have any doubt about S4 and strength increase.
> 
> Day 19 (shoulder):
> 
> I've increase my shoulder press by another 10lb but big increase was on Upright row - I've went up another 20lb! 
> 
> Day 20 (legs):
> 
> This is where I've set a new record. I did my squat at 3 plates like normal but felt light. Did it anyway to failure and did 2 more reps.
> ...


Endus it must suck for you that you have to load and unload all those plates!!!!!! I am glad your strength is going up!!! You don't need an online trainer you have this website!!!! Spend the money you plan on paying them on some more S4!!!!! Don't do it brother!!!!!

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## endus

> Endus it must suck for you that you have to load and unload all those plates!!!!!! I am glad your strength is going up!!! You don't need an online trainer you have this website!!!! Spend the money you plan on paying them on some more S4!!!!! Don't do it brother!!!!!


Hah, compared to you, I'm a lightweight. It must take you an hour just to load/unload for every exercise you do.

I'm going to back down on a weight a bit though - like any new found strength, I may went bit overboard. I'm definitely feeling it a little on my knee today. Will take it easy next week.

Trainer is more out of my lazyness and constant confusion about what is good/bad than anything else. I figure these guys could get me through some of the humps, instead of posting dozens of post about routine or diet, which will further lead to more confusion due to varying opinion. Sometimes not thinking is priceless?

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## TexSavant

The half-life of Ostarine/S-4 is 4 hours

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## Okinawa_Power

> Hah, compared to you, I'm a lightweight. It must take you an hour just to load/unload for every exercise you do.
> 
> I'm going to back down on a weight a bit though - like any new found strength, I may went bit overboard. I'm definitely feeling it a little on my knee today. Will take it easy next week.
> 
> Trainer is more out of my lazyness and constant confusion about what is good/bad than anything else. I figure these guys could get me through some of the humps, instead of posting dozens of post about routine or diet, which will further lead to more confusion due to varying opinion. Sometimes not thinking is priceless?



Brother you have TOP for your diet, Bass gives great advice about working out...You can PM them and don't have to worry about starting a thread just use PM....Also hit me up on your work-outs I will give you a hand!!

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## endus

Here's update on my cycle,

Day 21-22 - off days.

Day 23 - 27 - same routine as last week. Strength is about same as last week.

Day 28 - 29 - off days.

Not much have changed since last week. No large strength gains like previous week - just steady at this point. The vision problem is about the same and is affecting my mood. Its difficult to feel positive when everything is tinted or looks darker. At night, even with lights on, it feels darker... and requires additional attention.

As a side note, on 28th day, I've increase my dosage to 150mg/day. This will be my last week on S4 and I wanted to experiment to see if higher dosage will have any effect. I wanted to run this cycle for 8 weeks but I have a vacation coming up and I'll need my night vision. Cheers

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## endus

Day 30 - 31 (chest/back days),

As mentioned, I've increased my dosage to (from 90-100mg) 150mg-200mg on day 28 (not very precise I know - marking has worn off on my syringe) and it took 2 days for me to feel the effects...

1) strength - again increased bit more but not as much as 2nd week. Still I was surprised at this point.

2) Aggression - first time I've noticed. When working out, I've noticed much more aggressive mood - almost mad like feel. Was great as I did extra reps on every one of my sets!!!

3) Vision - really bad at this point. Almost to a point where driving is (amost) out of the question. I'm also seeing a color wheel effect where color is changing from light blue to green to pink - every couple of seconds. This is constant.

4) Libido - through the roof. Even more than last week.

I am now lowering my doses so I could end the cycle by end of the week. If someone can figure the vision issue at high dosage, this would be a killer. I should have my before after pics next week.

Cheers

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## bass

wow 200mgs! i know the vision thing sucks...i look forward to seeing your pics...

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## endus

Day 32 - today was my off day.

I've lowered my dosage to 50mg and will keep it at this level until Thursday, then I will stop.

The vision issue at 150-200mg was intense. It not only affected night vision, it also affected day light vision as well. The color cycling when looking at a computer monitor (LCD) was amusing for few seconds but not much fun after that.

During the day, I've noticed some blurring and I had to focus lot more to see things clearly. Hope I didn't do any damage to my vision.

Just as I've expected, the vision improved in about 12 hours (after going down to 50mg - I'm getting good at predicting what S4 will do to my body/vision) and is improving every hour. I think it will take few more days to go back to week 2-3 level, then another week to completely get rid of them (I hope).

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## endus

> wow 200mgs! i know the vision thing sucks...i look forward to seeing your pics...


I can't tell the difference, I do feel bit harder but still see a little porker. My wife did noticed that I've changed a bit - she will be taking pics this weekend.

When are you starting your S4 cycle again? I'm starting it back as soon as I come back from my vacation.

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## endus

> hey this is a great log mate! i was wondering i always here bout strength/endurance gains. but have u had any good size gains?


Thanks! 

Hard to tell - I am on a cutting cycle but I haven't lost a single pound. My calorie intake is definitely lower and is fairly clean - I've even got rid of the cheat day/meal but no dice - actually even gained a pound. Only difference in diet was higher protein intake but less calories overall - weird.

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## bass

> I can't tell the difference, I do feel bit harder but still see a little porker. My wife did noticed that I've changed a bit - she will be taking pics this weekend.
> 
> When are you starting your S4 cycle again? I'm starting it back as soon as I come back from my vacation.


glad your vision is getting better, don't worry, it will come back 100%. as for my next cycle, most likely February next year. three months at 25-50mgs per day. mainly just to help keep muscle while cutting. i will do blood test every 2-4 weeks just to be sure...

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## bass

hey endus, i meant to ask you but keep forgetting! are you still taking your dose all at once or are you splitting it?

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## endus

> hey endus, i meant to ask you but keep forgetting! are you still taking your dose all at once or are you splitting it?


For 90-100mg, I've split it into 2 dose - 10am and hour before workout (around 5-6pm). For 150-200mg (turns out it was more like 220 - stupid marking), I did same but added 3rd - midnight dosage.

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## cvictorg

> Day 32 - today was my off day.
> 
> I've lowered my dosage to 50mg and will keep it at this level until Thursday, then I will stop.
> 
> The vision issue at 150-200mg was intense. It not only affected night vision, it also affected day light vision as well. The color cycling when looking at a computer monitor (LCD) was amusing for few seconds but not much fun after that.
> 
> During the day, I've noticed some blurring and I had to focus lot more to see things clearly. Hope I didn't do any damage to my vision.
> 
> Just as I've expected, the vision improved in about 12 hours (after going down to 50mg - I'm getting good at predicting what S4 will do to my body/vision) and is improving every hour. I think it will take few more days to go back to week 2-3 level, then another week to completely get rid of them (I hope).



I think that the yellow vision and impaired night vision that people are reporting are side effects of acute overdose of S-4.

The only clinical trials on S-4 are the ones that GTx is doing for Ostarine (their brand name for S-4). But their clinical trials used up to 3mg TOTAL per day, not per kg of bodyweight per day. That's a difference of a couple orders of magnitude. The dosing for this chemical has been WAY too high, because one of the primary people selling it does not understand the research.


This preliminary study on S-4 in rats found that anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040238/

When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, the dose that maxes out the anabolic response would be around 0.46 mg/kg. In a 200 lb male, that works out to about 40 mg/day. That may sound low, but it's still 13 times higher than the highest dose they used in the clinical trials. You sure as hell don't need hundreds of mgs per day. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040234/#R9

*Analysis of variance showed no significant difference in the CL of S-4 at doses of 0.5, 1 and 10 mg kg−1 ( p>0.05).* Previous in vivo studies in the present authors' laboratory showed that the *dose required to restore the levator ani muscle weight in castrated animals, an indicator of anabolic activity, compared with that of intact animals was less than 4 mg kg−1 day−1 (Yin et al. 2003).* Thus, S-4 demonstrates linear pharmacokinetics within the dose range needed to exert maximal pharmacological effects.

The lack of parent drug in the urine suggests that S-4 is extensively metabolized. Assuming a hepatic blood flow of 13.8 ml min −1 in the rat (Davies and Morris 1993), the hepatic extraction ratio of S-4 would be less than 0.05. Based on this hepatic extraction ratio, a greater than 95% bioavailability (i.e. less than 5% of the drug would be removed by first-pass metabolism) is predicted. The present results confirmed this prediction, as *S-4 was completely bioavailable following pharmacologically relevant doses (i.e. doses ≤ 10 mg kg−1).*

*The CL of S-4 at a dose of 0.5 mg kg−1 (1.92 ml min−1 kg−1) was significantly ( p<0.001) greater than that observed for the 30 mg kg−1 dose (1.00 ml min−1 kg−1). These data suggest that saturation of the drug-metabolizing enzymes might be occurring at this higher dose.* Therefore, one would expect to see further suppression of CL following doses greater than 30 mg kg−1. However, due to the potency of S-4, the authors do not anticipate the need for such high doses during clinical use. Forthcoming data from the present authors' laboratory will provide needed information about the hepatic metabolism and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in this and other species.

The pharmacological activity and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in rats suggest that this compound has the properties of an ideal SARM as defined by Negro-Vilar (1999). It is rapidly absorbed following p.o. doses (tmax, 48−84 min), and it exerts tissue-specific anabolic effects in vivo, with anabolic effects in muscle and bone but lesser effects in the prostate and seminal vesicles (Kearbey et al. 2003, Yin et al. 2003). These properties coupled with forthcoming reports from the present authors' laboratory about the pharmacological effects of S-4 in other pertinent animal models and its pharmacokinetics and metabolism in dogs and humans, favour the continued development of S-4 as an orally bioavailable non-steroidal SARM.

Pharmacokinetics of S-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro- 3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide in rats, a non-steroidal selective androgen receptor modulator; Xenobiotica - 34(3):Pages 273-280 - Informa Healthcare

Oral bioavailability was also dose dependent, with the lower doses showing complete oral bioavailability. The half-life of S-4 over the dose range tested was between 2.6 and 5.3h.

Dose translation from animal to human studies revisited

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/full/22/3/659

As the abstract states, "The animal dose should not be extrapolated to a human equivalent dose (HED) by a simple conversion based on body weight..." The FDA has stated that the extrapolation of animal dose to human dose is correctly performed only through normalization to body surface area. To convert mg/kg in rats to mg/kg in humans, you multiply by 0.162 (6/37). For mice to humans, multiply by 0.081 (3/37). There are several other values for other animals.


Again - anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day

So do the math - lets say you weigh 90kgs - 90kgs @ 2.85kg = 256.5mg
Convert from rats to human - 256.5x.162 = appx 40mgs 

But you took the dosage up to *200mgs per day*

My questions are - WHY and ARE YOU CRAZY???

You couuld have PERMANTELY DAMAGED YOUR VISION!!!

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## bass

this stuff have been dosed at 300mgs per day and no one, i mean NO ONE has ever reported a permanent sides...

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## endus

> You couuld have PERMANTELY DAMAGED YOUR VISION!!!


You could be right - BUT!!!

You know what type of forum this is right? You do realize that people are taking way too much xxx for 12 weeks and yyy for 4 weeks on top of that and zzz on top of that - all over dosed to a point where in lab test, those doses could cause cancer or whatever in lab rats. 

You also realize that people are willing to lose their hair, deal with acne, deal with man boobs and even deal with complete loss of their own Testosterone production?

I realize that some dosage might be too high but if you looks at some AAS threads, you'll see tons of "should I do a lower dosage to avoid sides" and most will say, yes it will lower the sides but will not make you gain anything. We don't know at this point what the limit of S4 is - so you actually have a few lab rats testing its boundary and learning from each rat's experience. 

By the way, there's already some logs on other forum that report that even at low dosage that you are talking about - they are having vision issue. 

I understand your concern and hopefully no one is harmed by using or testing this on their lab rat but this is not a WebMD forum. cheers

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## endus

Update - last day for this cycle. 

As expected, my vision is improving leaps and bound. I could actually see things in the dark. I have my moments where it takes longer to get acclimated but generally its good. 

Today was my leg day and set a another record - 350lbx4 on squat and 8 plates x 6 on leg press. One of my better workout!

Tomorrow is shoulder day - no S4  :Frown: 

I'll keep this log open for few more weeks with occasional updates - to see if strength goes down or any other anomaly. Cheers

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## Little Herc

How much weight did you gain on your cycle?

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## bass

> Update - last day for this cycle. 
> 
> As expected, my vision is improving leaps and bound. I could actually see things in the dark. I have my moments where it takes longer to get acclimated but generally its good. 
> 
> Today was my leg day and set a another record - 350lbx4 on squat and 8 plates x 6 on leg press. One of my better workout!
> 
> Tomorrow is shoulder day - no S4 
> 
> I'll keep this log open for few more weeks with occasional updates - to see if strength goes down or any other anomaly. Cheers


endus, my strength is still up, my tennis elbow pain is almost gone. Today i curled 16 plates using cables which is my record for biceps. its funny how quick you got the vision sides and how quickly you're recovering, it took me about 10 days to get it and 10 days to get rid of it, this goes to show you that everyone is different...i look forward to seeing some pics

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## endus

> How much weight did you gain on your cycle?


None - I didn't gain or lose weight. If you look at my log, I was on a cutting cycle with about 400+ calorie deficit a day. In normal sense, I should of lost weight but none at all, which is frustrating. But I'm getting harder so hopefully this means I've just gained all lean mass.

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## endus

> endus, my strength is still up, my tennis elbow pain is almost gone. Today i curled 16 plates using cables which is my record for biceps. it’s funny how quick you got the vision sides and how quickly you're recovering, it took me about 10 days to get it and 10 days to get rid of it, this goes to show you that everyone is different...i look forward to seeing some pics…


Yes, my vision issue started on 3rd day in and now, its been less than 24 hours since stopping and I'm doing better. This morning was bit worst but I'm not too worry in such a short time.

My elbow tendinitis didn't get better - maybe slightly worst? I think it was due to using heavier weights though.

I forgot - I got an anomaly. Both of my earlobe is swollen and is itchy. I've noticed this when I was taking higher dose - didn't think much of it and last night, it almost looked like cauliflower ear. I took a anti-histamine and it subsided a bit but its still swollen. Its going down now but itchy as hell - I guess higher dose was causing allergic reaction? I've also got some more acne on my face but not like when I started.

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## freakinhuge

great log, thank you so much tons of great information, looks like you are getting really good strength gains.

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## endus

> great log, thank you so much tons of great information, looks like you are getting really good strength gains.


Thanks. Before I've started taking S4, I was making a steady gain in strength. Once S4 kicked in, it went up quite a bit, I would say 50% more than it normally would of been. For example, on shoulder press. I was dabbling with one 45 lb plates on each side. If I've just continued without the S4, I probably would of added 5 or 10lb more on each side at this point. With S4, I've just leaped frogged it and went up another 25lb. Leg is different matter - I went way over the board with 8 45lb plates on each side. Before S4, I was doing 5 plates with dabbling toward 6 plates.

So even though I am still skeptical (always am), I would would say it definitely added to my normal progression.

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## endus

Update - Day 4 since stopping S4.

My vision has improved slightly since last update but I still have many of the vision side effect. Here's more detail of vision issue at this point,

1) while driving - I now could see objects on side window. Before I could only see where the light is pointing at diminished rate. I now could see much more scenery and object with just the ambient lights.

2) I now could see the sky - clouds and stars. Before, all I could see was black sky.

3) Yellow/Green Tint is now greatly diminished. I still get some color cycling but only when looking at LCD monitor. The yellow tint is still dominant at Dusk.

4) Everything is still darker than usual - day or night. Its slightly better than before but its kind a depressing when everything is gloomy in color. I would say couple of shade darker than normal (like light sunglass).

It seems like S4 have some appetite suppression. Once I stopped, after 1 day, my appetite increased tremendously. I had to cheat quite a bit to get rid of the craving - then tremendous will power to stay on diet. 

Oh and I've injured my forearm - dropped 90lb weight as I was starting my dumbell press - yikes! So I'm taking a day off and lots of pain pill. If I don't workout and stay on track - I tend to fall off fast. So I'm trying my best.

I'm also feeling slightly lethargic - not quite like coming off of aas/ph, but enough to notice. I've also noticed slight decrease in strength and libido - its really too early and its probably more of a placebo effect. I'm getting my blood work done this week and I should have it soon. I don't think it will be too much different as I could tell if something is changed or not. 

I'll be on vacation next week and once I come back - I'll be re-starting at 10-20mg a day, pending blood test. This next cycle is strictly to see if libido and appetite suppression effect is valid (hope so) as I don't care too much about strength at this point. At my age, my joint will thank me! 


Cheers

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## bass

thanks Endus, sorry to hear about your injury, hopefully you get better during your vacation. i look forward to the blood test results and hopefully some pics!!! have a great one...

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## endus

Update - day 6.5 since stop taking S4.

I got my blood test back - and it looks like it did supress them a bit, but not much. My test is normally low (feel fine though) so drop % is larger than someone who is in higher range. Also note that baseline number is over a year old.

Base Total Serum - 344
New total Serum - 318

Base Free 9.8
New Free Test - 9.6

All are within normal range - though in the lower side.

My vision is still not 100% - still takes a bit to get used to dark. Even in day/lighted situation, its shaded. This morning I had a Ghost of Sarm visit me. I would of thought I wouldn't see that at this point but it came back. 

Strange thing is - my workout is now more intense. I was still able to increase weights for my back workout. Hope this will go on till I plateau at much later point.

Cheers

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## bass

thanks for the report Endues, it sounds like what i have experienced, my vision went back to normal after two weeks, but strength is still there...your blood test looks good actually, but do another one after your second cycle and then see what happens, I think your test will go up slightly or at least it’ll stay t he same.

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## endus

I would of guessed that it went down slightly as I felt some lethargy for few days. Its not quite like when I came off PH but still felt it.

I'm probably going to change my plan - I just scored some Havoc/E-stan/bold for super cheap (they are getting banned), so I'll probably do that - maybe add one more item like H or M-drol?. 

After this S4 cycle, I do need some change - to have that invincible feeling for 4-6 weeks. Granted, there's bit more side/ lethargy but worth it for a short time - especially in winter for that extra pick me up. I'll use the S4 for PCT which might be good since I never get shutdown much from mild PH cycle.

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## endus

Ok Bass, here are pics. The first pic was 2 years ago - I actually was lot fatter than that - another 20lb, size 38 pants but couldn't find any pics. I guess I've avoided picture taking during that time.

I still have lots of fat around lower waist and lower pecs but everything feels harder - I guess got long way to go to lose more fat. At least I enjoy working out now and look forward to it each day. 

My current stats are - I wear size 33-34 and large shirt instead of 38/XL/XXL. Thats most important stats for me! Would love to be 32 though.

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## bass

you did pretty good there Endus, nice loking wheels, shoulders look good too...i look allot like you maybe less BF, but have the same issues, fat aroung my waist and under my pecs, but like you said its getting harder every day, and i also look forward to working out, with this attitude you and i could compete for the title one day!!!

thanks for posting the photos...

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## endus

Day 14 since stopping S4 (last log for this one).

My vision is normal at this point (day 13) - no more green/blue tint, no night vision issue, double vision, ghosting, etc. 

This was an interesting experience and hoped you found this helpful. Cheers

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## bass

thanks for everything Endus....great log. glad your back to normal with your vision...

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## endus

No prob Bass. Even though it was good, I'm glad its over. I think I'm going to stick with ph/aas for now. Didn't realize how much I miss full vision.

By the way, I bought extra S4's that I haven't used - let me know if anyone wants it cheap or trade.

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## adam15425

> By the way, I bought extra S4's that I haven't used - let me know if anyone wants it cheap or trade.


 Dibs! PM'd you Endus

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