# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > DIET AND NUTRITION >  Keto diet info

## BIG TEXAN

By: Dorian Kent

Ketogenic Diets - What Are They? Do They Work? 

What would you say if I told you that you could supercharge your energy levels with a switch to your diet? How about lose fat or bulk up using the same diet? Would you like to eat the foods that are considered taboo? You know... The good foods, the ones with all the fats that really taste good. We are speaking of ketogenic diets (or keto for short). Countless books have been written on this very subject and yet the world does not understand the value of this diet. I keep hearing the same comments: "Man that diet is bad for you." "You will have excessive cholesterol and probably have a heart attack." Where does this come from? A common lack of knowledge! Most of the time we fear that which we don't understand, so we are here to shed some light on the subject and hopefully leave you with a better understanding about this diet. 

Fitnessman and I have decided it was time to "school" some of you on the effects and ease of this diet. This is the first time we have ever done anything like this together so it should prove to be interesting. Fitnessman is highly schooled on the subject of Ketogenic diets. He has a degree in nutrition and is a major contributor in the Bodybuilding.com forum. When Fitnessman talks we all stop and listen! On with the article... 

The Problem 

The most common problem today is what we eat. Modern man seems to have gotten so wrapped up in processing stuff that it actually became bad for us to eat. Many years ago man ate meat! This was his diet. He would kiss his family goodbye and go off in search of a wild animal for meat. There was no processed wheat, refined sugars or msg to concern himself with. 

Benefits 

First let's cover a few aspects of the benefits from using a keto diet, though there are many. Fitnessman and I will cover a few here that we find the most interesting. 

Increased fat loss 
Increased energy levels 
Decreased hunger while cutting 

I suppose a plethora of volumes could be written about this but in the scope of this article we will only cover a few. And as Fitnessman says, "We will attempt to put this article in plain English." 

Basic Mechanics of Fat Loss on a Keto Diet 

The object of a keto diet is to force your body to get into and stay in a glycogen deprived state and maintain a mild state of ketosis (burning fats for energy). In order to achieve this you need to increase the fat intake and restrict the carbs to a minimum. 

On a carb based diet, carbs are converted into glucose and this is what the body will use for its primary fuel source. The glucose that is not used for energy is converted to glycogen and stored in the liver for future usage. Now once the stores are full we get a sort of "spill over", and the excess is stored as adipose tissue or fat, as we all are familiar with. You know the stuff around the waistline we call the spare tire or the dreaded "love handles". Now we feel this is proof positive as to why you get fat, not due to eating fat, but due to excessive carbs. "But I don't eat a lot of food and I still get fat." This is possibly due to an intolerance to insulin . You would be surprised how many are walking around borderline pre-diabetics. How many obese people do you see today? Ask some of them what they eat and how much, I bet you would be surprised at the answers. I found most people are struggling with their weight due to this intolerance to insulin, especially as the aging process takes its toll. 

The one factor I find interesting is that you are able to control this insulin problem with this diet. We are faced with too many carb related problems, such as Diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure, which are due largely to hyper-insulinism. In the last 10 to 15 years scientists have realized that metabolic disturbances which usually occur in the obese, is caused by a form of insulin resistance. Insulin is a hormone which will constantly rise and fall according to foods we eat. It is better to control the insulin to our advantage, which will be covered in the next few installments, such as after a weight training session. 

Increased Energy Levels 

Believe it or not glucose is not the preferred fuel source for the body. We subject it to carbs constantly and the problem is carbs are not efficient and clean burning. You can compare it to your car. Would you want to put the lowest grade octane in the tank when it calls for the higher grade? What would happen? Pinging, lousy gas mileage, dirty valves, soon the available power would slow down. Same with the body, after a few days of carb withdrawal, many of Fitnessman's case studies report increased energy to the point where they are bouncing off the walls. With the dense nutritional energy in a gram of fat (stored or dietary) is it any wonder? Free form fatty acids are the actual preferred source of fuel. But with carb based diets the body rarely gets to use them due to the fact that glucose is not only more readily available but is easier to utilize. The body will assume the easiest method but not always the best method for energy. It is really simple. If we feed it carbs, it will use carbs. If we feed it fats, it will use fats. It actually takes less energy to burn carbs which is 4 calories per gram, versus the 9 calories per gram for fats. So unless the body is forced at first to utilize fatty stores it will not. This will be covered more in the next installment. 

Decreased Hunger While Cutting 

It's pretty simple really. Fat is more nutritionally dense than carbs. Fat will take longer to digest and therefore a fuller feeling for a longer period of time. When you feed the body fats tells you that it is happy and satisfied. 

When you eat a carb-based meal you sort of feel hungry a bit later on. You can compare it to the old saying, "Like eating Chinese take out, one hour later you are hungry again." The rapid rise in insulin will actually do a few things. It will cause increased lethargy (being excessively tired) and cause you to be hungry again soon afterwards. Ever notice right after a meal with carbs, like a big boal of pasta, you feel tired immediately after? How about one hour later you find yourself snacking again? This is common with a carb-based diet. It all comes down to the same thing: insulin. To be more precise it's a chemical disorder we talked about previously called hyper-insulinism. It's due largely to the sugar and more simple carbs we consume today. Again, man was not intended to eat the sugar and highly refined stuff we eat today, and in this authors opinion it is that which is slowly poisoning us all. 

Remember the last time you dieted? Remember the hungry feeling you always seemed to have, the hard time you had because you were never satisfied with what you ate? There may have been times where you wanted to end the misery of dieting and just go ahead and eat. I am sure we have all faced this at one time or the other. This is where this diet comes in to play. Think about it.... rich fatty foods to satisfy your cravings. Tempting, huh? 


By now you should have read part one and maybe we got your attention. You are now asking: "What do I need to do to have this energy you spoke of?" "What kind of foods can I eat?" "What kind of training can I do to maximize this diet?" This is what we will discuss in this article. My co-author is the 'Master of The Keto' himself, Fitnessman. You can always find him on the BB.com forum in the nutrition and losing fat section, educating those who need it. He is currently working on his masters in nutrition and he is the man to listen to when it comes to a Ketogenic diet for bodybuilders. Now on with the show... 

Unfortunately not everyone can eat everything in sight and get away with it. Some of us do put on excessive fat doing so. Why? Could be a number of factors but the number one factor is eating the wrong foods and ratios. As we age our body's metabolism starts to slow down and fat is a lot easier to put on and keep on our bodies. We soon find that a simple food item we once were able eat with no problems, now causes us to gain fat. We also find our training suffers due to being too tired to workout, let alone stand and walk. We find ourselves taking supplements like ECA stacks to keep us going through the day. But the ECA stack only works temporarily and then we are listless once again. Never really knowing why all this is happening, we continue (or should I say try to) with our daily lives. We are constantly striving to find ways to increase our metabolism and lose the excessive fat we have hanging over our belts, but more often then not we fail in this quest. 

Most of the time it is because we are not forewarned of certain diets, such as the food guide pyramid that the USDA puts out. How many have actually followed this guideline to only find out it didn't work? Or how many have been told that the key to proper nutrition is to mix your foods and eat fats, carbs and a small amount of protein at each meal. Ever wonder why those who lose fat fail again in the future? They didn't condition the body for permanent weight loss. They went on a strict diet to lose 10 pounds the first week, then 5-6 pounds each time thereafter. That is great but, with the lack of calories during the diet, (eating carrot sticks or drinking Slim Fast all the time) once the diet is finished the fat creeps up once again. In my opinion mixing carbs and fats is a major NO, NO. Why is this? 

We all know that eating carbs will create an insulin response and this is good. While eating fats and carbs together, the fats will enter the adipose tissue as it is trying to be drawn up into the body. This is what causes fatty deposits in the body. This in my opinion is the problem with obese people. They really don't understand the proper way to eat, and eating potato chips (carbs and fats) is not the way to go. Food is the most powerful drug around and it can either make you or break you. It's all up to you. Even bodybuilders seem to make the same mistakes in their diets. I have seen trainees trying to cut by eating a 'well balanced diet' with carbs, proteins and fats, only to stall out and have a hard time losing the fat. They say you have to eat carbs and fats. Well... Yes and no. 

If the timing is correct, yes, there is a right and wrong time for everything. When we were younger it seemed that everything we ate passed right through our system and we didn't gain any weight by eating garbage. My parents used to ask me if I had a hollow leg, due to the fact I ate all the time, and ate anything I wanted to eat. As life progressed I learned that it was not possible to keep living this lifestyle of eating everything in sight. It was time to change the diet. Lets look at the diet for cutting and bulking on a ketogenic diet for bodybuilders. 

Cutting Diet 

When cutting up to lose fat deposits, Fitnessman recommends eating 10 calories per pound of bodyweight with one gram of protein per pound of bodyweight. 

We will use a 200 pound man as an example. A 200 pound man will consume 2000 calories a day. This will come out to roughly eating 200 grams of protein. Fitnessman feels that this is the way to go, not only because it works for him, but because he has seen it work for others. While on a ketogenic diet he feels that one gram per pound of protein is the best way to go to conserve muscle mass while cutting. Now this would equal out to 800 calories of protein, spread this out through the day into roughly six meals. 

Fitnessman feels that carbohydrate intake should be around fifty grams a day for a 200 pound person. Spread this out over the course of the day for your meals. This will equal roughly 200 calories of carbohydrates. In my opinion, only because this is what works for me, I eat only 30 grams of carbohydrates a day and in only one meal. I do not mix fats with this meal. My morning meal consists of proteins and carbs only and I eat this early in the morning when hormone levels are at their highest. This seems to aid in recovery and fat loss for me. But again this is something you will have to experiment with for yourselves. Don't eat simple carbs, although in my opinion simple and complex are not really that much different, only the more complex version which will be discussed further in this article. 

As for fats, here is the good news: Eat any kind you want to. The ratio is roughly 111 grams of fat which will equal 999 calories. This will be discussed later in this article. 

The post workout shake should consist of 30 grams of whey and 30 grams of just about any juice. This will be immediately used by the body to replenish lost glycogen stores in the muscles.The whey is a faster absorbable protein than most other kinds. The only real thing that varies with this diet, Is energy levels. If a person runs low on energy they need to bump up the fat intake a bit. If recovery is too slow, then bump up the fat and protein intake. Everyone's metabolism is different, even when cutting some one can handle more calories than others. So let your body be your guide. 

Foods To Eat 

As for foods to eat, well this the easy part: 

All full fat cheeses are allowed 
All meats 
Fish 
Cottage cheese the full fat variety 
Nuts 
Egg yolks and all 
Slim Jims (Fitnessman will probably end up fighting you for these.) 
Fish oils 
Extra virgin olive oils (do no cook with it, the properties will change.) 
Flax seed 

Just keep your eyes open for the carb content when you shop for foods. 

Vegetables are also an excellent source of carbs and will keep the digestive system working properly. We suggest eating a lot of fibrous vegetables, there are many to choose from, you will just have to do your homework. Here are a few vegetables with the amount of calories in them. 

These all are roughly 10 grams of carbs per serving. 

Asparagus 20 spears 
Black beans half a cup 
Broccoli raw unlimited amounts 
Brussels sprouts 11 sprouts 
Celery unlimited 
Cucumber 1 cup 
Endive 4 cups 
Carrots 2 medium 
Green beans 1 cup 
Iceberg lettuce unlimited 
Mushrooms unlimited 

This is just a small example, not exhaustive of what can be eaten. I would be typing this list all day and some, to list them all. I suggest doing a search on the Internet or go to a bookstore to find books on carb and calorie content in foods. 



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Here is a good site for looking up the carbs, calories and much more of almost any food. It is 100% free. 



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"I have had a few clients bail on the ketogenic cutting diet, not because they weren't losing fat, but they were putting on weight. They just couldn't understand that for the first time in their lives they were actually giving their bodies the proper nutrition it needed. The muscles responded in kind and grew thus making them heavier. The one fellow put on 10 pounds in six weeks and dropped two inches off his waist, but he was still convinced the diet was not working." This is what Fitnessman has found with some of his clients. With the proper nutrition your body will respond and do what you want it to do. No longer does the excuse "I am too old to lose weight" hold any validity. Fat loss is made simple and yet is actually tasty at the same time. What other diets let you eat the good stuff? This is something that should not be hurried. I hear a lot of trainees complain that their fat loss is too slow. Or they will complain that the scale doesn't show any weight loss. Do yourself a favor and throw away the scales. You should only be losing 1 to 2 pounds a week. This will be mainly from fat. If you lose any more than that it will more than likely be from muscle tissue. If the weight doesn't change you could be very well adding muscle, so don't fret about it. Use the mirror as your guide. I have weighed myself in the past only to see that I wasn't losing weight. I realized why, I was getting bigger and more cut, which is something we all want to happen. Some guys will actually complain that they lost 6 pounds during the first week then the loss slowed down. This is due the highly diuretic effect this diet will have on the body. This will be water loss and that is normal. Make sure you put it back in by drinking water." 

While on a ketogenic diet there are a few vitamins and minerals that I suggest should be used. I like folic acid to keep homocysteine levels down. I also use a B-complex and a good multi-vitamin. You can use an ECA stack with this diet to enhance your fat loss if you wish to do so, but it isn't necessary. Niacin and vitamins E and C are also beneficial for you. A lot of guys will use this diet with a cycle of 1-testosterone or a transdermal prohormone spray to keep the testosterone levels at a maximum. This will enhance the diet due to its already raising effect on T-levels. This will aid in fat loss and enhance muscle building. 

For those skeptics out there, all I got to say is give it a shot. What do you have to lose? Fat? Give it a fair shot before you dump it in the trash. Usually in a few weeks time you will notice some differences. 

During the next article in this series we will discuss bulking up and it's ratios. I will also include some training tips to help maximize fat loss and bulk.

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## BIG TEXAN

Outline of Dave Palumbo's Diet For Cutting 

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The premise of the diet is high protein (about 1- 1 1/2 gram per pound), moderate fat (about 1/2 g per lb) and low low carbs (no direct sources of carbs). During this diet, the brain goes into ketosis (it uses ketone bodies for energy-- fats) and thus the energy requirements by the body can almost all be supplied by fats (which you'll be taking in plenty of). The only activity that uses carbs will be the weight workout which may use 40grams per workout. You will get these 40g indirectly through the foods you'll be eating. As a backup, the cheat meal you'll be having once per week will provide a storehouse of glycogen (glucose) in case of emergency. So, you see, very little gluconeogenesis in the liver will be occurring. If we keep cortisol low (by 
restricting STIMULANTS) we'll ensure that muscle is spared!

HAVE YOUR CHEAT MEAL ON THE SAME DAY EVERY WEEK, last meal of the 
day so you dont cheat again.

Fiber helps burn fat! Everyone should take fiber 2x per day. Fiber actually helps increase the absorption of calcium.
When following my diet plan (which includes getting your brain into ketosis), there can be NO starchy carbs eaten!



For a 200lb man:

MEAL #1
5 whole eggs (make sure to buy *****-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good *****-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the *****-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)

MEAL #2
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)

MEAL #3
"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)

MEAL #4
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)

MEAL #5
"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar

MEAL #6
SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ? tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (*****-3) eggs and 4 extra whites

For a 250lb+ man:
Meal 1 6 whole *****-3 eggs
Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds
Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter
Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil
Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB
Meal 6 6 whole eggs

Remember, it takes 3-4 days to get into a strong ketosis where your brain is using ketone bodies (fats), instead of carbs, for energy. Be patient.

Many times I'll switch to an alternatiing diet where one day it will be protein/fat......then another protein/vegetables (very little fat). The great thing about the body and fat is that ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS can be stored in the muscle for several days, up to 2 weeks......therefore, once an adequate storehouse of Essential Fats are built up, the body can be "tortured" a little and it still won't give up muscle (that's assuming you're still taking in adequate protein. Protein can't be stored).

1oz almonds equals 6g carbs (2 of those grams are fiber) and 2oz equals 12g of carbs.

With the beef meal (any fatty protein meal), you should have the green salad with 1 tablespoon of Olive or Mac oil INSTEAD of the nuts. Only eat the nuts with the LEAN PROTEIN MEAL (chicken, turkey, lean fish)

The best fat sources come from the essential fatty acids-- *****-6 and *****-3's. Most of us get plenty of *****-6s from cooking oils, ect..........however the *****-3's are harder to get. I recommend WHOLE *****-3 EGGS, FaTTY FISHS like SALMON and SWORDFISH and TUNA and MACKEREL, ALMONDS and WALNUTS have some *****-3's (as well as *****-6s). ANother great fat source is MONOUNSATURATES such as EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL and MACADAMIA NUT OIL.....they aren't essential but they are great for the metabolism (great source of energy) and they are extremely good for your heart.

You're not getting any indirect sources of carbs (just from the 1 spoonful of PB.... you may want to have at least one 1/3cup nuts meal. Remember, Olive or Macadamia nut oil is predominantly a MONOUNSATURATED FAT (good for the heart, but not essential)........ the nuts, and fish oil have the essential fats in them. Also, with regard to FLAX SEED OIL, the *****-3 Fatty Acids found in them (alpha-linolenic acid) has a very poor conversion to DHA and EPA (Essential *****-3 intermediates) in the HUMAN........therefore, you're much better off taking in FISH OILS (that already contain DHA/EPA) than FLAX SEED OIL.

Once fat loss slows, I always increase cardio first, then I increase the amount of fat burners (clen , cytomel , lipolyze).........After those other methods are exhausted, only then, do I play with the diet.

Always eat BEFORE lifting........never BETWEEN lifting and cardio.
Artificial Sweetners:
The artificial sweetener itself (eg. aspartame, sucralose) wont cause a problem. It's what some companies complex it with. For example, EQUAL and SPLENDA combine their aspartame and sucrolose with 1g of maltodextrin........whereas, in diet drinks, they don't do that. So, diet drinks are okay, SPLENDA and EQUAL must be used in moderation (STEVIA BALANCE is fine though since they use inulin fiber instead of maltodextrin

Forget using:
-MCT's are a waste when you're dieting. If you're gonna use FATS for an energy source, they might as well serve a function in the body. MCTs are useless. They can only serve as a source of energy!
-Arginine is not going to do anything. It will DO something; just not dramatic.

Cardio:
CARDIO should be performed at a low intensity (under 120bpm heartrate). This will ensure that you use FAT as a fuelsource since as your heartrate increase, carbohydrates begin to become the preferred fuel of choice for the body. When on a low carb diet, you're body will break down muscle and turn that into carbs. Remember, Fat CANNOT be changed into carbs. Therefore, for bodybuilding, the rule of cardio should be LONG DURATION, LOW INTENSITY

never do less than 20 min per session

The BOTTOM LINE is that low intensity cardio (while you might need more of it) ensures that fat is utilized and muscle is spared (especially while on my high protein/moderate fat/low carb diety).

Do you feel the treadmill is better for cardio, or is the bike(stationary or recumbent) just as good? As long as the intensity is LOW, it doesn't matter which piece of equipment you use

Q&A:
Q: Is gluconeogenesis inevitable in your diet? 
Dave Palumbo: NO

Q: If so do I need to consume more than 1.5 grams of protein per lb of LBM so as not to lose muscle? 
Dave Palumbo: The fat spares the protein....when the brain is in ketosis, the carbohydrate requirements are very very low.

Q: How much (percentage) of my protein intake would be turned into glucose (gluconeogenesis)? 
Dave Palumbo: Very little (maybe 10%)

Q: What do you think of submersion in cold water as a means of burning bodyfat (thermogenesis)? 
Dave Palumbo: HOCUS POKUS!

Q: How about drinking lots of cold water (I think this was even suggested by Elligton Darden) to help lose bodyfat? 
Dave Palumbo: RIDICULOUS

Q: Do you think drinking lots of Green Tea is beneficial to fat loss? 
Dave Palumbo: Somewhat helpful.

Q: How much is the ideal dosage of ***** 3 for a 220 lb. individual ? 
Dave Palumbo: Try to take in about 9g per day

Q: How many Tbs of peanut butter could I have instead of 1/2 cup of cashewnuts? 
Dave Palumbo: 2 tablespoons, two tablespoons of Peanut Butter contains 190 calories and 16 grams of fat (so 1.5 tablespoon equals about 12 grams fat) ...whereas......... 2oz (1/3 cup) almonds (about 40 almonds) = 12g fat

Q: I want to add that if I cant find the ***** eggs here locally. Can I use international egg whites and just take an ***** supplement?
Dave Palumbo: You can get away with 5 whole eggs (regular ones) once a day........not a big deal. You'll be burning up all that fat anyway.

Q: Whats the max cups # of coffee ( no sugar ) can consume on Dave's diet ? 
Dave Palumbo: Try to limit to 2 cups per day.......I realize that towards the end of the diet you may need more to help you get through the day.

Q: If you cook tilapia in macadamon nut oil?do you coun't the oil as your fat for that meal! Depends how much you use. 
Dave Palumbo: If you just grease the pan with it, no!

Q: what is the protein,carb and fat ratio for offseason
Dave Palumbo: 50% Protein, 25% fat, 25% carbs

Q: and the ratio for contest prep. 
Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs

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## BIG TEXAN

Now I'm not doing this to preach that keto is the way to go...it's just mearly another option to choose from. I for one have done Dave Palumbo's diet and it has worked great...I also have done carb cycling with great results....just depends on what ya wanna do. So here is some of the info I could find and or had on hand...so read and enjoy.

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## sizerp

Thanks for the post, I am definitely interested in the Bulking Article for this type of Dieting. Any idea where I can find that information?

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## BIG TEXAN

> Thanks for the post, I am definitely interested in the Bulking Article for this type of Dieting. Any idea where I can find that information?


I won't post it...I don't agree with how they go about doing it...I mean one of your meals is 3 double cheeseburgers with mayo, no bun...just my opinion. Like it states above to bulk in off season than go, 50% Protein, 25% fat, 25% carbs

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## sizerp

Haha, okay. Yeah that sounds a bit excessive.

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## AdamGH

i might give this a shot later on. im stuck at the 10-12% range body fat and getting discouraged. i wonder if this would be something different my body needs. i wonder if my body needs the change for...change  :Smilie: 

the meal example has some carbs in it but he was taking earlier about drinking some juice with the protein powder for your carbs pwo. i see no mention of it in the meal plan. also early in the article he mentions carbs in the morning.. yet i see none in the first meal.

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## VeraDeMilo

Big Texan, Good Post!
I myself have done Dave Palumbos Ketogenic diet the last couple of years. His approach differs slightly from other keto diets, but I feel Dave's is superior because his is geared towards bodybuilders.

The Dave Palumbo diet that Big Texan posted is basically the standard diet he preaches. Dave volunteers this diet free of charge in his muscular development forum. However, for the the bodybuilders that he trains and serves as a nutritional advisor for, he tweaks this diet to fit that individuals needs based on his expert opinion. He may switch up the levels or the calorie requirements to help get his bodybuilders past sticking points in the diet. 

Dave only advises to run this diet for not much longer than 16 weeks. And after about the 12th week, if fatloss has slowed down, he may advise to throw in a 2nd cheat meal later in the week. Sometimes He will throw in an all protein day with no fats. This however is more advanced and is based on the individual response.

As Tex said, those 40g of carbs you take in indirectly throughout the day, basically fuel your weightraining workout. Which is why there isnt a big difference between doing AM cardio right when you wake up, or post workout cardio. Because you have burned the carbs in your weightraining session, so by the time you go to post-workout cardio, you are back to using fats. And your heartrate should already be at the sufficient BPM level to where the cardio is more effecient.

Dave has more recently modified his offseason version of this diet and simplified it as well. Basically, take the diet that he advocates for keto, and just add carbs to each meal.


A lot of people also assume Dave's version of this diet is more fine tuned for Bodybuilders who also use steroids . This is not true. This program can be very successful for a natural bodybuilder. Like I said, I have followed this diet the last few years as a natural. My weightloss was 90% fat 10% muscle.

To all the nay-sayers, give it a try!

Again, good post Big Texan!  :7up:

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## BIG TEXAN

Thanks...I've had the pleasure of talking with Dave....that's what got me onto his version of keto. I like both keto and carb cycling...just depends on what I'm training for and how my body has been responding. Glad ya'll enjoyed the post and just wantedto shed some light on the whole keto thing.

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## VeraDeMilo

One more thing that should be stressed about Dave's diet is that the fats are *UNsaturated fats*. This is one of the main differences he has with other diets like this.

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## mex83

I have been on the ketos diet for almost three weeks already and I have lost 15 lbs already. way more than with any other diet that I have come arcoss. I tried the low cal diet and the high carb low protein diet.... so far ketos diet is the one that has help me so far.

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## VeraDeMilo

> I have been on the ketos diet for almost three weeks already and I have lost 15 lbs already. way more than with any other diet that I have come arcoss. I tried the low cal diet and the high carb low protein diet.... so far ketos diet is the one that has help me so far.


Depending on your bodyweight, around 8-10lbs of that is water. People make the most drastic losses in the first two weeks because once the carbs are out of your system, your body doesn't hold as much water. The weightloss will slow down now but will stay steady as long as you stay strict with the diet and cardio.

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## mex83

> Depending on your bodyweight, around 8-10lbs of that is water. People make the most drastic losses in the first two weeks because once the carbs are out of your system, your body doesn't hold as much water. The weightloss will slow down now but will stay steady as long as you stay strict with the diet and cardio.


Thats right sir.... I am aware of that I was informed that the first two weeks was going to be the most weight loss then after that it was going to low down. 

I am great on the diet and been doing 1.5 hours of intense weight training and 20 mins of post workout cardio low intensity and in the morning i do another 20 low intensity.

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## Reed

The results speak for themselves with this diet. Should be a sticky

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## AdamGH

i assume i could replace the whey with real food right? like whole breast of chicken with some fish oil maybe?

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## VeraDeMilo

> i assume i could replace the whey with real food right? like whole breast of chicken with some fish oil maybe?


Yes, you can replace the whey with real food. However, I would still keep the whey as my post workout meal.

If you follow Palumbo's version of the diet, technically all the meals are interchangeable as long as you are meeting your protein and fat requirements per meal. While he doesn't push this, Dave himself has said that hypothetically, the diet can be run on all protein shakes for each meal. (Again, he doesnt advise this method, he just states that technically it can be done.)

I know that for a while, Evan Centropani was doing 3 whole food meals and 3 protein shake meals a day when running Dave's keto diet. I believe he was also taking in 1400 cal from Protein and 1400 from fat per day. And that was for a guy his size with his build while working out and doing 45min-2 hours of low intensity cardio a day. So the calorie requirements on this diet are very minimal

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## FlammableFlava

Can you do this Keto diet for 5 days and on the weekend eat just carbs? Cuz I read somewhere on this site that if you do that it sends your body into a little shock and you still lose fat?

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## big_k

> Can you do this Keto diet for 5 days and on the weekend eat just carbs? Cuz I read somewhere on this site that if you do that it sends your body into a little shock and you still lose fat?


Thats considered a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet, it really depends on your current body fat percentage and metabolism whether you eat carbs during the weekend, or just 1 day of the week. 

Some that do Keto actually will "Carb Up" once every 2 weeks, or even longer. The idea is you go as long as you can without carbs until you HAVE to carb-up.

Personally I feel if you were to do a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet (CKD) the best protocol is: Initial 2 weeks no carbs, then your first carb up once a week. You don't just 'eat' carbs, its High Glycemic Carbs in the morning, then Low GI Carbs for the rest of the day. The idea is to shock the system, restore depleted glycogen, and help with leptin levels.


I've used it for cutting with quite a lot of success...cut about 15-20 lbs of body fat while maintaining lean body mass, and perhaps even increasing it. I love the diet because its easy to follow, you _feel_ full all the time, and its very muscle sparing. DEFINITELY not for everyone though.

----------


## Edgar

I didnt see any info on onions can you eat onion on Keto?

----------


## big_k

> I didnt see any info on onions can you eat onion on Keto?


Onions are okay as long as you are not eating a lot of it. They are carbs, but they only being to add up when you are actually eating more than one onion a day.

So adding couple slices of onions to spice up the taste is fine and should not effect ketosis.

----------


## MalibuD

Ive done the Keto diet and had great results, it was kinda taxing on the body first couple of weeks, Dont know how much you need and like carbs until you go without! Could you do this diet while on clen /t3 or would it not be recommended?

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> Ive done the Keto diet and had great results, it was kinda taxing on the body first couple of weeks, Dont know how much you need and like carbs until you go without! Could you do this diet while on clen/t3 or would it not be recommended?



You can definitely run it with clenbuterol . It may even make the diet more effective. Besides the fat burning, clenbuterol has muscle sparing benefits to it, which is why its common for people to run it along with their PCT regiment post cycle.

I don't know if I would run it with T3 merely because of the fact that the compound is non-discriminatory (burns both fat and muscle). The only way I would suggest trying that would be if you were also running some type of Testosterone to counteract the catabolic effects the T3 may have.

----------


## MalibuD

Yeah I thought about that, I was told when on t3 you have to eat even more protien than when even doing a cycle, just to keep the muscle on . I dont want to do any test because as soon as Im done with this six week diet I plan on starting a bulking cycle. I just need to get rid of some body fat before I start. I plan on doing alot of cardio, I just wasnt sure of which diet I wanted to do that would best suit my needs. I know I could probably do it with only diet and cardio but I want to hit it hard and get the most out of this six weeks as I can. Thanks for the help.

----------


## FlammableFlava

So if i wanted to lose body fat, this diet would be good to go on? Can u use fat burning tablets etc wit it too....

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> So if i wanted to lose body fat, this diet would be good to go on? Can u use fat burning tablets etc wit it too....


Yes. Fat burners are fine

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

Q: and the ratio for contest prep. 
Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs




Here I come...

1g fat = 9 cals
1g pro= 4 cals
1g carb= 4 cals


That 10% should come first meal and pwo?

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> Q: and the ratio for contest prep. 
> Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here I come...
> 
> 1g fat = 9 cals
> ...



The contest prep questions may be more suitable for Big Texan since I know he actively competes in shows. So his Keto diet caloric ratios may be slightly different than the ones I used. I know Dave tweaks his diets slightly based on the individuals needs.

I would say that those 10% of indirect calories from carbs would be spread out throughout the day. None of them would be strategically placed since you in no way, shape, or form want to spike your insulin levels on this diet. Even post workout. Dave Palumbo does not suggest any type of direct carb ingestion post workout.

So I would imagine that after 6+ meals, you may have accumulated 10% of calories from carbs indirectly from peanut butter, almonds, leafy greens, etc.

Oh, and the ratio you quoted of 60% protein 30% fat and 10% carbs is in regards to total calories, not grams. So on this diet you are going 1:1 Protein:Fat calories

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

> The contest prep questions may be more suitable for Big Texan since I know he actively competes in shows. So his Keto diet caloric ratios may be slightly different than the ones I used. I know Dave tweaks his diets slightly based on the individuals needs.
> 
> I would say that those 10% of indirect calories from carbs would be spread out throughout the day. None of them would be strategically placed since you in no way, shape, or form want to spike your insulin levels on this diet. Even post workout. Dave Palumbo does not suggest any type of direct carb ingestion post workout.
> 
> So I would imagine that after 6+ meals, you may have accumulated 10% of calories from carbs indirectly from peanut butter, almonds, leafy greens, etc.
> 
> Oh, and the ratio you quoted of 60% protein 30% fat and 10% carbs is in regards to total calories, not grams. So on this diet you are going 1:1 Protein:Fat calories



So what should be PWO?

Also, 1:1 pro:fat? And is it 1 gram pro/bw?

So for example, if I consume total 2000 cals...that would be 950 pro, 950 fat, 100 carb????

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> So what should be PWO?
> 
> Also, 1:1 pro:fat? And is it 1 gram pro/bw?
> 
> So for example, if I consume total 2000 cals...that would be 950 pro, 950 fat, 100 carb????



Postworkout is just another protein fat meal. just like the rest. So a whey protein shake and some extravirgin olive oil maybe.

yes 1:1 protein calories to fat calories.

Roughly around 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight. I have tried it both based on total bodyweight, and based on lean bodyweight.

You can tweak this accordingly though, based on how far below your daily maintenance calories you would like to be.

So just for an example, if I wanted to base this diet off of a 250lb man's bodyweight, whose daily maintenance calories intake is 3700. (just an example) I would consume 375g of protein. 375x4 is 1500 calories from protein. 
Now I want to equal those calories from fat so 1500 divided by 9 is 166g of fat a day. (this can be altered too depending on the individual. I like my fat intake to be a little lower.)

You don't try to hit the 10% carbs a day mark. It just ends up that you have consumed around 40-50g of carbs throughout the day indirectly from your fat and protein sources. (so 50g of carbs x4 is 200cals from indirect carbs a day)

So my total calorie intake is 3200 calories. My maintenance is suppose to be 3700. So ideally, I am 500 under each day. That number x7days puts me at a target weightloss of 1lb a week. Now if I burn an additional 500 cal a day from cardio. Then my weightloss is theoretically 2lbs a week.

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

> Postworkout is just another protein fat meal. just like the rest. So a whey protein shake and some extravirgin olive oil maybe.
> 
> yes 1:1 protein calories to fat calories.
> 
> Roughly around 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight. I have tried it both based on total bodyweight, and based on lean bodyweight.
> 
> You can tweak this accordingly though, based on how far below your daily maintenance calories you would like to be.
> 
> So just for an example, if I wanted to base this diet off of a 250lb man's bodyweight, whose daily maintenance calories intake is 3700. (just an example) I would consume 375g of protein. 375x4 is 1500 calories from protein. 
> ...



I see what your saying. Thanks.

----------


## VeraDeMilo

No problem. anytime :Smilie:

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

So this is no carbs ever? How long does one diet like this? Seems like it would get pretty old, pretty fast.

----------


## VeraDeMilo

There are different variations of the diet. If you follow Dave Palumbo's version. You get one cheat meal a week to load up on carbs. This is basically a two hour window to eat whatever you want.

The diet is very hard for the first week. But once in ketosis, you don't crave carbs or crap food anymore. and you don't really get hungry. I mean, you do, but never that "omg i'm starving" feeling.

Ideally, its best to be run 12-16 weeks

----------


## Deltasaurus

on Keto diet do you drop body fat pretty rapidly or what? or still the same as other diets with cardio 2 lbs a week? and you just get to eat different?

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> on Keto diet do you drop body fat pretty rapidly or what? or still the same as other diets with cardio 2 lbs a week? and you just get to eat different?


You drop bodyfat very fast. But whats different about this diet compared to others is the ability to maintain muscle while you drop the fat. It is not uncommon to gain strength while dieting on the ketogenic diet. I have ran this diet several times losing anywhere from 25-30 lbs. 90%fat 10% muscle. That was natural with no anabolics.

Whats also different about this diet is that you will lose weight most drastically in the first 2 weeks. Its typical to lose 10 lbs in the first two weeks just from your body expelling the water that you're no longer storing because of carbs.

----------


## Deltasaurus

well then my next question would be im about 180lbs 155 LBM so i eat only 1800 kcals a day and 45grams of carbs 30 of which is PWO shake correct and the last 15 would most likely be from my b5 bed cottage cheese or what? i just though 1800 kcals is a lot lower then my average cutter being a 500 kcal deficit not 1000 my TDEE being 2800 1800 seems like a lot to drop in Kcals.
Also i thought carbs and Glycogen made your muscles look Fuller so if you didnt have them then wouldnt your muscles appears smaller? or is it only for cutting that most use Keto?

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> well then my next question would be im about 180lbs 155 LBM so i eat only 1800 kcals a day and 45grams of carbs 30 of which is PWO shake correct and the last 15 would most likely be from my b5 bed cottage cheese or what? i just though 1800 kcals is a lot lower then my average cutter being a 500 kcal deficit not 1000 my TDEE being 2800 1800 seems like a lot to drop in Kcals.
> Also i thought carbs and Glycogen made your muscles look Fuller so if you didnt have them then wouldnt your muscles appears smaller? or is it only for cutting that most use Keto?



The diet can be tweaked based on the individuals needs. There is no "set" limit of how many calories you "should" take in. Basically to be safe, do 1.5 grams per lb of lean bodyweight if you want. and adjust your fat accordingly. If you have a very high activity level, you may need to up these amounts. I always stayed within 500 of my maintenence level during dieting just to make sure I was preventing as much muscle wasting as possible.

You do look very flat while doing this diet. You also dont get much of a pump in the gym. You refill your glycogen stores during your cheat meal, so the day after, you will seem full again. But to put it a different way, this diet isnt geared toward making you look good while on it. Its geared toward you looking your best at the end of it. 
For bodybuilding show purposes, you would fill back out the 3 days before your competition during you carb loading anyway.

I have to head to the gym now, but I'll be back on later if you have more questions.

----------


## Deltasaurus

so could i use this diet to get down to 8-10% BF then come off it maintain that BF and start my lean bulk using carbs without any ill call it "Fat Rebound" from the carbs?

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> so could i use this diet to get down to 8-10% BF then come off it maintain that BF and start my lean bulk using carbs without any ill call it "Fat Rebound" from the carbs?


Yes, but you have to slowly implement the carbs back into your diet to avoid any rebound. Also, you are going to gain a few quick pounds which a lot of people confuse with the "rebound" of fat. In reality, it is just your system retaining more water now that the carbs have been reintroduced. You will actually hold more water than normal for the first 2-3 weeks post diet, and then it will level out. If you slowly taper your carb intake, you can avoid some of this effect.

The accumulation of bodyfat will have to do with what your new caloric intake is, in regards to your required maintenance level. So as your carb intake goes up, you may want to slowly lower your protein and fat intake accordingly.

Dave Palumbo's offseason diet is the same as the keto diet, just add carbs. so its a 1:1:1 ratio calorie wise.

When I go into my bulk after this diet, I am not really worried about fat or water gain that much. I just throw the carbs right in. My bodyweight goes up about 20lbs in 2 weeks, but then stabilizes and drops 10lbs. And all that weight is more or less just your water retention.

----------


## FlammableFlava

Do you have to have 6 meals a day on this diet, cant I just have 5 meals a day as 6 is bit hard for me due to bein at work with 2 jobs...

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> Do you have to have 6 meals a day on this diet, cant I just have 5 meals a day as 6 is bit hard for me due to bein at work with 2 jobs...


You can get away with five, you just have to up the amount of protein and fat in each meal. Also, if you work a second job at night, you can always substitute one of the meals with a shake. Just bring it with you.

----------


## FlammableFlava

> You can get away with five, you just have to up the amount of protein and fat in each meal. Also, if you work a second job at night, you can always substitute one of the meals with a shake. Just bring it with you.


Vera, i took this Keto Diet that BigTexan had posted and switched few things round to suit me, so here it is, i was just wonderin if you think its a good diet to do my next course of Tren /Test.Propionate /Anavar for cutting up and fat loss, here is the diet:

MEAL 1:	9:00AM
PROTEIN/FAT:

3 Whites, 3 Whole Eggs
(***** 3)


MEAL 2:	11:00AM
PROTEIN SHAKE:

50g Whey Protein


MEAL 3:	2:00PM
LEAN PROTEIN:

8oz Chicken with ½ cup Almonds/Walnuts


WORKOUT


MEAL 4:	6:00PM
PROTEIN/FAT:

Tuna mixed wit 4 Whole Eggs on a pan
Olive Oil
Green Salad
(No Tomatoes, Carrots, or Red Peppers)


MEAL 5:	8:00PM
PROTEIN SHAKE:

50g Whey Protein

----------


## VeraDeMilo

Hey, give me a little more info. What is your bodyweight and bodyfat and your daily activity level like?

Give me the amounts of everything you will be eating. Like you say tuna. does that mean one can? you say mixed with olive oil. how many tablespoons? try to break down everything for me so I can get a better idea.

----------


## ejb3

Any input on how this diet might work for a Type1 (insulin dependent) diabetic?

----------


## FlammableFlava

> Hey, give me a little more info. What is your bodyweight and bodyfat and your daily activity level like?
> 
> Give me the amounts of everything you will be eating. Like you say tuna. does that mean one can? you say mixed with olive oil. how many tablespoons? try to break down everything for me so I can get a better idea.


I started off beggining of this year with high protein diet, with similar steroid course and got great results, I was down to 12st and BF was about 15%, but then I got an injury 3 months ago :Tear:  so I been out of the gym for 3/4 months and now I have gained fat and weight.

I am 13st 12lbs, and BF has gone to about 25%.

My daily activity is 5 days cardio for an hour each day. I'm doing this cardio to lose as much as I can til the end of this year to start my Tren /Prop/Anavar course with the Keto Diet.

When I say eating tuna mixed with eggs, what I mean is I use one tin of tuna and 4 eggs with onions etc an maybe about one tablespoon of olive oil, mix it, scramble it all up etc....

What I need to do is, reduce as much BF but keep my size while on this course/diet. Thanks for the help I appreciate it mate... :Wink/Grin:

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> I started off beggining of this year with high protein diet, with similar steroid course and got great results, I was down to 12st and BF was about 15%, but then I got an injury 3 months ago so I been out of the gym for 3/4 months and now I have gained fat and weight.
> 
> *I am 13st 12lbs*, and BF has gone to about 25%.
> 
> My daily activity is 5 days cardio for an hour each day. I'm doing this cardio to lose as much as I can til the end of this year to start my Tren /Prop/Anavar course with the Keto Diet.
> 
> When I say eating tuna mixed with eggs, what I mean is I use one tin of tuna and 4 eggs with onions etc an maybe about one tablespoon of olive oil, mix it, scramble it all up etc....
> 
> What I need to do is, reduce as much BF but keep my size while on this course/diet. Thanks for the help I appreciate it mate...


Hey man, sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I didn't check back with the thread for a few days. I am terrible with conversions. Do you know what your bodyweight would be in lbs (pounds)?

----------


## OH REALLY

i cant find penut butter that has no sugar what do you suggest

----------


## OH REALLY

ok no ranch and no ceasar salad f me this sucks

----------


## Phate

> Hey man, sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I didn't check back with the thread for a few days. I am terrible with conversions. Do you know what your bodyweight would be in lbs (pounds)?


he weighs 180lbs, 1 stone is 14 pounds

----------


## OH REALLY

how much is a brick

----------


## fit4ever180

> ok no ranch and no ceasar salad f me this sucks


I see no problem with salad dressing? I plan on using bleu cheese on my keto diet, which I'm just starting today... 2 tbs. 160 cals, 17g fat 15 mono, 2 poly, 1 unsaturated... 

Vera or Texan, do you either of you guys have reasoning against this?

----------


## BIG TEXAN

> I see no problem with salad dressing? I plan on using bleu cheese on my keto diet, which I'm just starting today... 2 tbs. 160 cals, 17g fat 15 mono, 2 poly, 1 unsaturated... Anyone have reasoning against this?


Yuo can use them...I just prefer not to....just not healthy fats in my opinion..I'd rather mix some good olive oil and vinegarette together and get in some healthy fats....lots of oils that give healthy fats can be made into good dressings and even marinades.

----------


## fit4ever180

> Yuo can use them...I just prefer not to....just not healthy fats in my opinion..I'd rather mix some good olive oil and vinegarette together and get in some healthy fats....lots of oils that give healthy fats can be made into good dressings and even marinades.


Very true... I do make one dressing using olive oil, apple cider vinegar, and stevia, so I'll stick with that for the most part... Thanks Texan!

----------


## BIG TEXAN

> Very true... I do make one dressing using olive oil, apple cider vinegar, and stevia, so I'll stick with that for the most part... Thanks Texan!


No problem bro...why I'm here. Man...ya gotta send me that recipe, wanna try it this weekend, sounds good.

----------


## OH REALLY

how much can i eat on my cheat day and is it all day or just dinner also can i drink any kind of red wine

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## fit4ever180

I'll post it in the recipe sub-forum too.... Here ya go, it's really simple...

1/2 c. apple cider vinegar
1/3 cup of sugar substitute or with stevia (as it's supposed to be 3x as sweet) 1/4 c.
1 or 2 tbs. extra virgin olive oil (depending on size of the salad or nutritional needs)

Pour you vinegar into a saucepan, add the sugar sub. and stir it in (most of it will disperse and dilute in to the vinegar without any help), then add the oil... Taste it before you put it on your salad to see if it's sweet enough... Heat it up so that it's close to boiling... Pour it over your salad (works really well with red leaf lettuce!).... Bona appetite!

----------


## FlammableFlava

> Hey man, sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I didn't check back with the thread for a few days. I am terrible with conversions. Do you know what your bodyweight would be in lbs (pounds)?


Yeah my bodyweight in lbs is about 190lbs...

----------


## OH REALLY

What a about red wine and lo carb beers i like to brink a cold beer right after a good workout .

----------


## BIG TEXAN

> What a about red wine and lo carb beers i like to brink a cold beer right after a good workout .


Why?? I mean I understand enjoying a cold beer, but if this lifestyle is what you want and desire, than there's little to no room for that in your diet. I only say because I do compete and therefore my body is my livelyhood...I treat it like an investment and you only get out of an investment what you put into it.

----------


## OH REALLY

> Why?? I mean I understand enjoying a cold beer, but if this lifestyle is what you want and desire, than there's little to no room for that in your diet. I only say because I do compete and therefore my body is my livelyhood...I treat it like an investment and you only get out of an investment what you put into it.


Is that a no then?

----------


## OH REALLY

baked chicken 3 different types of cheeses on top of bacon and some ranch dressing to dip it in i love this diet

----------


## OH REALLY

What about salsa?

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> baked chicken 3 different types of cheeses on top of bacon and some ranch dressing to dip it in i love this diet


Whatever diet that is, is not the keto.

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> Vera, i took this Keto Diet that BigTexan had posted and switched few things round to suit me, so here it is, i was just wonderin if you think its a good diet to do my next course of Tren /Test.Propionate /Anavar for cutting up and fat loss, here is the diet:
> 
> MEAL 1:	9:00AM
> PROTEIN/FAT:
> 
> 3 Whites, 3 Whole Eggs
> (***** 3)
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, well based on the info you gave me, without knowing what brands of food and the exact nutritional info is for each, it sounds like you are taking in approximately 1600 calories a day. Your fat is around 55g a day. Your protein is around 253g a day. Your protein intake looks perfect around that number. I would up your total daily fats intake by at least 30g. add 1 tbspoon of extra virgin olive oil to each of your two protein shake meals. That will do it. That will put your total calories around 1870 roughly. Your maintenance calories are only around 2364. This is not factoring in your 5 day a week cardio activity level. So basically, you will be 500 cal under your daily requirements, so that should factor into 1lb a week weight loss. Now depending how hard you hit cardio, that will account for an additional lb weightloss if you can burn 700 calories each of those 5 days. That will put you on target for 2lb weightloss a week. I wouldn't lower your calorie intake anymore than that because we are trying to spare muscle too. If fatloss slows down after a while, the diet needs to be tweaked again, to accomodate your lower bodyweight and nutritional needs.

(The numbers I gave may vary slightly, depending on the exact nutritional contents in each of the foods you eat. Also, I did not know your height or age.)

----------


## OH REALLY

> baked chicken 3 different types of cheeses on top of bacon and some ranch dressing to dip it in i love this diet


but that has no carbs

----------


## VeraDeMilo

I've seen LOW carb cheeses, but never NO carb cheeses. Thats not to say there aren't any, I have just never run across any.
(you have to be careful with anything dairy because of sugars.)

And what type of bacon is it? lean turkey bacon, or regular bacon loaded with saturated fats?

Saturated fats are not part of the keto diet. You want unsaturated fats.

----------


## jimmyinkedup

> I've seen LOW carb cheeses, but never NO carb cheeses. Thats not to say there aren't any, I have just never run across any.
> (you have to be careful with anything dairy because of sugars.)
> 
> And what type of bacon is it? lean turkey bacon, or regular bacon loaded with saturated fats?
> 
> Saturated fats are not part of the keto diet. You want unsaturated fats.


Vera - we are gonna respectfully disagree again - no malice intended. Fats whether saturated fats or unsaturated will have no effect on ketosis whatsoever. It is a widely held belief (and prob rightly so) that unsaturated fats are obviously a healthier choice. However in studies of atkins diet intro phase (close to no carb as possible ,incidental carbs only) saturated fats a plenty - triglyceride levels actually decreased. I do think using unsaturated fats as opposed to saturated would aid in keeping homocystene levels down as will supplementing with folic acid. Point being - it might not be Daves keto diet but this meal will keep him just as deeply in ketosis and not adversely effect his results strictly from a results perspective. Oh and thank you for the well wishes re:my accident - appreciated.

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> Vera - we are gonna respectfully disagree again - no malice intended. Fats whether saturated fats or unsaturated will have no effect on ketosis whatsoever. It is a widely held belief (and prob rightly so) that unsaturated fats are obviously a healthier choice. However in studies of atkins diet intro phase (close to no carb as possible ,incidental carbs only) saturated fats a plenty - triglyceride levels actually decreased. I do think using unsaturated fats as opposed to saturated would aid in keeping homocystene levels down as will supplementing with folic acid. Point being - it might not be Daves keto diet but this meal will keep him just as deeply in ketosis and not adversely effect his results strictly from a results perspective. Oh and thank you for the well wishes re:my accident - appreciated.


Hey Jimmy. Yeah, again, in my critiques and advice to people, I am giving advice on how to run Dave's version of the keto diet. Which in my humble opinion, i feel is superior to the others, for our type of lifestyle. Bodybuilding. 

I was not trying to say that unsaturated fats would take you out of ketosis. But if you took in generous quantities, you would not really be following this particular diet. I was trying to emphasize that you want unsaturated fats over saturated fats. That is the staple of Dave's diet. Much of the keto diets do not specify types of fats. That is where Dave Palumbo's is different and he can pitch it as HIS keto diet. He is really the first to separate good heart healthy unsaturated fats from saturated and transfats in the ketogenic diet.

also, If the cheeses had any type of sugar based carbs, like most dairy does, they would not be included in this diet. (Dave's). Dave actually advises against most if not all Dairy products during this diet.

Just as people in carb cycle diets place great emphasis on the type of carbs chosen, based on their position on the glycemic index...... In the keto diet, we separate fats in the same way. You could get by with saturated fats, but to fully optomize the health benefits of the the Palumbo ketogenic diet, unsaturated fats and especially foods rich in 0mega-3s are superior and necessary.

----------


## jimmyinkedup

> Hey Jimmy. Yeah, again, in my critiques and advice to people, I am giving advice on how to run Dave's version of the keto diet. Which in my humble opinion, i feel is superior to the others, for our type of lifestyle. Bodybuilding. 
> 
> I was not trying to say that unsaturated fats would take you out of ketosis. But if you took in generous quantities, you would not really be following this particular diet. I was trying to emphasize that you want unsaturated fats over saturated fats. That is the staple of Dave's diet. Much of the keto diets do not specify types of fats. That is where Dave Palumbo's is different and he can pitch it as HIS keto diet. He is really the first to separate good heart healthy unsaturated fats from saturated and transfats in the ketogenic diet.
> 
> also, If the cheeses had any type of sugar based carbs, like most dairy does, they would not be included in this diet. (Dave's). Dave actually advises against most if not all Dairy products during this diet.
> 
> Just as people in carb cycle diets place great emphasis on the type of carbs chosen, based on their position on the glycemic index...... In the keto diet, we separate fats in the same way. You could get by with saturated fats, but to fully optomize the health benefits of the the Palumbo ketogenic diet, unsaturated fats and especially foods rich in 0mega-3s are superior and necessary.


100 % agreed as far as healthiest route - no doubt. I predominantly use unsaturated fats but do "cheat" with chicken wings occasionally. The cheese thing has always puzzled me - most cheese i use (non processed of course) Cheedar , sharp cheddar, list less than 1 gram carb per serving and 0 grams sugars. I wonder if the dont have to list sugars b/c its less than 1 gram or b/c there really arent any? Just curious.

----------


## VeraDeMilo

> 100 % agreed as far as healthiest route - no doubt. I predominantly use unsaturated fats but do "cheat" with chicken wings occasionally. The cheese thing has always puzzled me - most cheese i use (non processed of course) Cheedar , sharp cheddar, list less than 1 gram carb per serving and 0 grams sugars. I wonder if the dont have to list sugars b/c its less than 1 gram or b/c there really arent any? Just curious.


Thats a good question. I would be interested to find that answer as well.

----------


## Phate

> Thats a good question. I would be interested to find that answer as well.


could be another type of carb, but more than likely it is because of our rounding system, if you nice, most of our products are rounded to the nearest whole number, sometimes we have 1.5 or 2.5 but that's mostly with fats, so if there is less than .5g of sugar they just round it down or say less than one gram

----------


## FlammableFlava

> Ok, well based on the info you gave me, without knowing what brands of food and the exact nutritional info is for each, it sounds like you are taking in approximately 1600 calories a day. Your fat is around 55g a day. Your protein is around 253g a day. Your protein intake looks perfect around that number. I would up your total daily fats intake by at least 30g. add 1 tbspoon of extra virgin olive oil to each of your two protein shake meals. That will do it. That will put your total calories around 1870 roughly. Your maintenance calories are only around 2364. This is not factoring in your 5 day a week cardio activity level. So basically, you will be 500 cal under your daily requirements, so that should factor into 1lb a week weight loss. Now depending how hard you hit cardio, that will account for an additional lb weightloss if you can burn 700 calories each of those 5 days. That will put you on target for 2lb weightloss a week. I wouldn't lower your calorie intake anymore than that because we are trying to spare muscle too. If fatloss slows down after a while, the diet needs to be tweaked again, to accomodate your lower bodyweight and nutritional needs.
> 
> (The numbers I gave may vary slightly, depending on the exact nutritional contents in each of the foods you eat. Also, I did not know your height or age.)


My age is 22 and height is 5'6, stocky 190lbs build...When I go to bed, would having cheese before bed be good for me? If so, what can i have it with...
Thanks for the info man appreciate it...

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## Edgar

> I've seen LOW carb cheeses, but never NO carb cheeses. Thats not to say there aren't any, I have just never run across any.
> (you have to be careful with anything dairy because of sugars.)
> 
> And what type of bacon is it? lean turkey bacon, or regular bacon loaded with saturated fats?
> 
> Saturated fats are not part of the keto diet. You want unsaturated fats.



brie is one, monteray jack pepper, and monterey jack horseradish is another good one. but they have about 5 g of sat fat per serving. but no sugar no carbs.

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## VeraDeMilo

> My age is 22 and height is 5'6, stocky 190lbs build...When I go to bed, would having cheese before bed be good for me? If so, what can i have it with...
> Thanks for the info man appreciate it...


Ok, based on the bodyfat percentage you stated, I guessed you were around 5'8". And I figured around 21 years old. So that wasn't far off.

If you can find No carb cheese like some of these guys stated, than I don't see why there would be a problem eating that before bed. Remember, since there are no carbs in the diet and we aren't playing with our insulin levels, all of the meals are interchangeable. Also you are taking in under your maintenance calories, so fat gain wouldn't be a problem. You do want to try to get the correct portions of proteins and fats in each meal though. Now just pick a protein source. I always liked to throw in a tablespoon or two of natural organic peanut butter before bed with my protein meal.

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## VeraDeMilo

> brie is one, monteray jack pepper, and monterey jack horseradish is another good one. but they have about 5 g of sat fat per serving. but no sugar no carbs.


Thanks Edgar. I'll look into those this spring when I run the diet again.

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## VeraDeMilo

> could be another type of carb, but more than likely it is because of our rounding system, if you nice, most of our products are rounded to the nearest whole number, sometimes we have 1.5 or 2.5 but that's mostly with fats, so if there is less than .5g of sugar they just round it down or say less than one gram


Thanks Phate. That makes sense

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## yannick35

If you have a couple of $$ you can buy Lyle Mcdonald ultimate diet 2.0, i have the book here and its great.

You dont have to eat 6 meals a day when you are on a ketogenic diet, in fact i got some pertty good results eating only 3-4.

At first i took the fat burner stimulant X because i had cravings, all people are different and some will take more time to get the rid of the craving effect, even worst if you are a sugar or carb addict.

The diet is fully explained and there is a full body workout too.

My main issue with this diet is that i cannot stand ketosis, and i was never able to adapt to it either, the foggy, dizzy effect never went away, and at some point i really had no energy leff, and some times ended up carbing up sooner then i should have.

Usually its 4-5 days of low carbing with 1-2 days of carb up.

Again its fully explained in the book, i dont know if there is a e-book version that you could download.

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## VeraDeMilo

> If you have a couple of $$ you can buy Lyle Mcdonald ultimate diet 2.0, i have the book here and its great.
> 
> *You dont have to eat 6 meals a day when you are on a ketogenic diet, in fact i got some pertty good results eating only 3-4.*
> 
> At first i took the fat burner stimulant X because i had cravings, all people are different and some will take more time to get the rid of the craving effect, even worst if you are a sugar or carb addict.
> 
> The diet is fully explained and there is a full body workout too.
> 
> My main issue with this diet is that *i cannot stand ketosis, and i was never able to adapt to it either, the foggy, dizzy effect never went away, and at some point i really had no energy leff,* and some times ended up carbing up sooner then i should have.
> ...


Hey Yannick, I am familiar with McDonalds version of the diet. You are correct that you don't need 6 meals a day. The reason most of us use six meals is so that we can get in the correct amount of proteins and fats by the end of the day. Some of the bigger guys and guys with high daily activity levels require much more calories, so its easier to add extra meals to get them, instead of having to eat huge quantities each meal. You can do the diet with 3 meals, you can do it with 10 meals. 6 is just a common amount of meals that most bodybuilders take in by trying to space their meals every 2.5- 3 hours. 

As for you never being able to adapt to ketosis and the foggy, dizzy feeling never going away, this is most likely because you never reached ketosis. These are symptoms that one exhibits in the 3-4 days leading into ketosis. And I would expect the reasoning for this is because as you later said, you gave into your cravings and carbed up sooner than you should of. You said you did the diet for 5 days and then 2 days carbing up. (Which I know a lot of keto diets allow you to do.) However, my problem with this is that it takes 3-4 days to get your body into ketosis. Once you carb up, ur out of it and must repeat the cycle untill the carbs are all depleted from your body again. You probably felt great on your 2 carb days and the day after, like crap the next 4, untill you carbed up again. That is because your body is running on carbs still. And its still looking for them as fuel. If you let it go a few more days without giving into your cravings, you would have reached ketosis.

There are instruments called keto sticks that allow you to test if you are truly in ketosis or not.

In the version of the diet that I suggest to everyone, you get one carb meal a week. Not a day of carbs. One meal. And when starting the diet, you don't get to have one the first week. Your first cheat meal comes at the end of the second week. This is to truly get people into ketosis. And once your body is in ketosis, you will know. Your energy level stays steady, your mood never changes, you think clearly, you feel like a million dollars. Try the keto sticks next time you have that foggy feeling and I bet it tells you that you aren't in ketosis yet.

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## yannick35

Yes but ketostix are not accurate at least that is what i have been told, mine where dark purple, and beleive me i did reach ketosis.

Thanks for the great comments and help on the diet but to tell you the thruth i am done with keto and low carbing, has i said its just not for me, i did atkins, bodyopus, the anabolic diet, and UD 2.0, CDK, even TKD at some point where i ate some carbs after training only.

Right now i am doing a low glycemic diet which works best for me, i eat oatmeal everyday, soy milk and couple of other very low impact carb foods, i dont eat fruits but i do eat green veggies.

I got my efa supplement from universal and everything is working fine has of now i also eat plain yogourt in the morning.

I am glad that you are doing ok when in ketosis, i got so many mixed reviews on this issue. In fact this diet is not new i met some people who where doing it back in the 70, and again i got some mixed reviews there.

No question about weight loss, its the best thing to do, but has far has the feeling yagggg.

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## bimmermane90

This DAVES Ketosis diet plan. Where can I find it?

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## VeraDeMilo

> This DAVES Ketosis diet plan. Where can I find it?


It's Dave Palumbo's version. I believe BigTexan wrote it out on the first page of the thread. Also, go to Dave Palumbo's forum on muscular development . com and he gives a free basic version of the diet and answers any questions about it as well.

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## ravanA

with the cheat meal, do u eat the other meals as well? do you replace a meal or do u eliminate all the meals for the day??

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## VeraDeMilo

> with the cheat meal, do u eat the other meals as well? do you replace a meal or do u eliminate all the meals for the day??


Yes, you eat the other meals as well. The cheat meal just replaces one of the meals. It's wise to have your cheat meal for your dinner meal though. A lot of times when guys have their cheat meal early in the day, they end up cheating the rest of the day too. I always had mine at dinner. That way I only had time for one other meal before bed.

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## TheKing.

Hey guys. Good info here. I've got a question.

My diet as of late is not perfect, but I am trying to get my body into ketosis.

Tell me if this diet is ok.

meal 1
50 Gram low carb whey protein w/ Banana and 2 tbs PB natural

meal 2
T-Bone Steak with a little bit of seasoning

meal 3
50 gram low carb whey protein w/ Banana and 2 tbs PB natural

meal 4 
2 Beef Patty with lettuce and Yellow Cheese

meal 5 
50 gram low carb whey protein w/ Banana and 2 tbs PB natural



Shit, I'm eating too many Bananas huh? Also, I use 2% milkfat for shakes...
I'm not gonna go Keto am I????  :Frown:

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## TheKing.

bumpity bump.

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## VeraDeMilo

> Hey guys. Good info here. I've got a question.
> 
> My diet as of late is not perfect, but I am trying to get my body into ketosis.
> 
> Tell me if this diet is ok.
> 
> meal 1
> 50 Gram low carb whey protein w/ Banana and 2 tbs PB natural
> 
> ...



Nope, you won't go anywhere near keto with that diet. First off, drop the bananas. One medium sized banana has 27g of carbohydrates. (14g from sugars). So you are consuming around 81 grams of carbohydrates daily just from the bananas. I would be hesitant about the cheese also. You say yellow cheese, so I assume you are referring to something like a 2% milk singles yellow cheese. These have 3g of carbohydrates (1g from sugar) per slice. Thats not that bad I guess, but use it sparingly. Also, your 2% milkfat can have up to 13 grams of carbs from sugar per cup. Drop the milk and use water for your shakes.

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## TheKing.

ok, I dropped that milk and bananas. I hope this works.

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## FallenWyvern

Does alcohol take you out of keto for more than two hours?

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## VeraDeMilo

> Does alcohol take you out of keto for more than two hours?


depends on the type of alcohol, the amount consumed, and what type of mixers with it.

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## mustang331

I drink Vodka and diet anything..


http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/beverages/3843/2

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## Reed

> Does alcohol take you out of keto for more than two hours?


If someone is ketotic and is 100% reliant of gluconeogenesis to maintain adequate levels of glucose in the blood alcohol is a powerful inhibitor of gluconeogenesis. Also the alcohol stops ketone body production which leaves the brain entirely without fuel. Which means that if all the glucose in the blood is being derived from gluconeogenesis then the consumption of alcohol will cause the blood glucose level to fall. This can be dangerous due to low blood sugar. In other words do NOT consume alcohol if you are *truly* in a state of ketosis and are *truly* looking for results


Footnote: Gluconeogenesis is the process in which all the liver glycogen is used up and the liver has to make glucose from non-carb sources.

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## VeraDeMilo

Thats good info Reed. I agree with the above, however if you would like a drink once in a while and it is in moderation, you will be fine.

In my earlier years experimenting with this diet, (During my college days) it was not uncommon for me to drink 4-5 vodka on the rocks a night, 3+ times a week. I had no trouble staying in ketosis and felt no abnormal effects. But like anything, I'm sure this could differ from person to person.

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## mustang331

> Thats good info Reed. I agree with the above, however if you would like a drink once in a while and it is in moderation, you will be fine.
> 
> In my earlier years experimenting with this diet, (During my college days) it was not uncommon for me to drink 4-5 vodka on the rocks a night, 3+ times a week. I had no trouble staying in ketosis and felt no abnormal effects. But like anything, I'm sure this could differ from person to person.


What if you know you're going to go out say sat. night.. And know you are going to drink and what not.. can't you just make that day/night a cheat one?

Eat some carbs and what not?

How long does it take to go back into Keto

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## VeraDeMilo

theoretically you could. your "cheat meal" can be a few hours. Dave gives you a 2 hour period where u can eat and drink what you want. Assuming you don't go overboard, you should be able to get back into ketosis by the next morning

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## FlammableFlava

What cheese is better with the Keto Diet? Cottage or normal cheddar?

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## BuffedGuy

How would I just adjust this diet here...




> For a 200lb man:
> 
> MEAL #1
> 5 whole eggs (make sure to buy *****-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good *****-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the *****-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)
> 
> MEAL #2
> SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)
> 
> MEAL #3
> ...


...for a 170 lb man?

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## BuffedGuy

Three more questions:

1. If we wanted to eat chicken instead of whey protein, what amount of chicken would be good to replace 50 g of Whey?

2 In the lean protein meal where we are supposed to eat 8oz of chicken, does this have to be white meat (i.e. breast)? Or can I eat leg/thigh piece?

3. It seems like you are eating an insane number of egg yolks on this diet. I have high cholesterol. I'm reading from the mayo clinic website ( http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cholesterol/HQ00608 ) which says that one egg (with yolk) has 213 mg of cholesterol in it, and someone like me should have only have 200 mg of cholesterol a day. Obviously eating so many yolks is not right for me...so is there anything I can substitute the eggs with?

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## jimmyinkedup

1- 8 oz
2- in keto diet dark meat is fine
3- 0 m e ga -3 eggs or egg substitute(egg beaters) (add in olive oil to repleace fat content)

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## jimmyinkedup

......

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## BuffedGuy

Thanks a lot, bro. I really appreciate it. 

And how about the first question: i.e. how to adjust 200 lb plan for a 170 lb man?

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## BuffedGuy

Also, if I want to have lean ground beef instead of chicken for one of the meals, then can how much? 8 oz again? Isn't that a lot?

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## jimmyinkedup

ok when u substitue a food on the plan you have to match the macros up for that meal. In other words when u asked about dark meat..you can substitute but you should decrease amount of almonds u take in at that meal so protein/fat amounts stay the same. Use caloriecounter.com or other site to help with substitutions and keeping macros in line. One more thing ..the diet you posted above is Dave Palumbos diet ..it is very strict and mostly all fats, or as many as possible come from monounsaturated sources..when u sub dark meat , ground beef etc...for lean pro meals, as long as u adjust other source of fat intake with meal and keeop macros identical ,you will get the same results but the diet is not as healthy as the version with lean proteins/ mono fats or proteins with essential fatty acids(salmon etc..) as far as adjusting for 170 there is a formula i dont know it off hand but changes if memory serves me would be minimal ...gimme a little time and ill see if i can find that info...

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## BuffedGuy

Thanks bro, you've been very helpful. Sorry for the newbie questions.

One more question *eek!* -- how many slim jims can you have in a day? I feel weird going on a diet and eating those yummy things.

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## BuffedGuy

Can someone please answer the slim jims question please: how many is too many per day?

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## Knockout_Power

quick question, may be stupid, but for the eggs, does it matter if they are cooked?

Ive tried the raw eggs thing and I can stomach it

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## jimmyinkedup

> Can someone please answer the slim jims question please: how many is too many per day?


sorry i kinda forgot about this thread....as long as you stay within your parameters ie calories/macros just fit them in accordingly..if u wanna use them for add on snacks i wouldnt do more than 2/day...tons of sodium bro *L*

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## jimmyinkedup

> quick question, may be stupid, but for the eggs, does it matter if they are cooked?
> 
> Ive tried the raw eggs thing and I can stomach it


much higher avail of protein if eggs are cooked not raw..plus safer from a health standpoint.

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## VeraDeMilo

> quick question, may be stupid, but for the eggs, does it matter if they are cooked?
> 
> Ive tried the raw eggs thing and I can stomach it


I always like using liquid pasteurized egg whites. I just drink them straight from the carton.

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## xnotoriousx

ewwwwwwwwwwwww

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## VeraDeMilo

> ewwwwwwwwwwwww


lol. Its not bad at all. Try it! No taste. No oder. And just a little thicker than water.

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## run_n_fool

what does this diet do to total, LDL, and HDL cholesterol? Has anyone had blood work prior, during and after? 

Seems like it would cause a spike but the body works in mysterious ways

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## jimmyinkedup

i cant speak to "this" keto diet but interestingly enough with atkins diet the cholesterol values actually imporved...and that diet doent even emphaszie heatly fats...just fats/protein.go figure.....

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## run_n_fool

^^ thanks. so we can guess that the cholesterol numbers would probably be similar on this diet.

has anyone successfully used a keto diet when trying to gain mass and loose fat simultaneously?

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## jimmyinkedup

i think it can be done TO A SMALL EXTENT. Those are the claims made by ckd/body opus/anabolic diet. IMO it is most effective at mass retention while cutting...unless it is your first go round working out dieting etc...i dont think its realistic to expect much in the way of mass gains while dropping large amounts of bodyfat. As far as muscle sparing while cutting...it is amazing at this imo.

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## run_n_fool

thanks. may give this a try in the spring/early summer. hoping to add a few more #S first . . .

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