# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  cardio on empty stomach

## higherdesire

I am a little confused on this concept. I get up at 6 am. I ususally do a protien shake by 6:30. I then go do cardio at 7:45. Is this doing cardio on an empty stomach? Am I supposed to snap my body out of it's catabolic state form the overnight fast?

Also, I am confused as to how cardio is beneficial on an empty stomach because of this:

Every one should be aware that your body is a negative feed-back system. When one begins eating erratically and with food low in nutritional value your body takes measures to operate the best it can. *Your body will not allow moderate or high amounts of adipose tissue to be converted as fuel when eating erratically and scarcely. Reason being, in a simple way of saying, your body doesnt know when it will eat again and considers fat precious; therefore losing fat becomes a harder task*. That same person that doesnt eat regularly will also, unknowingly make a habit of using muscle (protein) as fuel when exercising. This is also known as being in a lean mass catabolic state. You will have a feeling of accomplishment because of the active BMR yet the same amount or a little less body fat will remain.

If this is all true, and I believe it to be, then how is cardio on an empty stomach beneficial? Additionally, shouldn't I eat a meal upon rising, then a pre wo shake 30 minutes prior? It is difficult when working out so early, i do resistance training immedialty after cardio, but it can be done. 

THansk for reading the long post and the input.

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## jfalco

Cardio on an empty stomach doesn't work for me. Only people who I've ever seen recommend it is bbers. All I can figure is that people who do this are willing to sacrifice muscle to loose fat. Loosing fat is easy for me so I think this is crazy. Also it feels terrible.

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## higherdesire

thanks for the response. i see alot of looks on this but no other input, can anyone throw out some thoughts for me? Thanks.

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## Phate

> I am a little confused on this concept. I get up at 6 am. I ususally do a protien shake by 6:30. I then go do cardio at 7:45. Is this doing cardio on an empty stomach? Am I supposed to snap my body out of it's catabolic state form the overnight fast?
> 
> Also, I am confused as to how cardio is beneficial on an empty stomach because of this:
> 
> Every one should be aware that your body is a negative feed-back system. When one begins eating erratically and with food low in nutritional value your body takes measures to operate the best it can. *Your body will not allow moderate or high amounts of adipose tissue to be converted as fuel when eating erratically and scarcely. Reason being, in a simple way of saying, your body doesn’t know when it will eat again and considers fat precious; therefore losing fat becomes a harder task*. That same person that doesn’t eat regularly will also, unknowingly make a habit of using muscle (protein) as fuel when exercising. This is also known as being in a lean mass catabolic state. You will have a feeling of accomplishment because of the active BMR yet the same amount or a little less body fat will remain.
> 
> If this is all true, and I believe it to be, then how is cardio on an empty stomach beneficial? Additionally, shouldn't I eat a meal upon rising, then a pre wo shake 30 minutes prior? It is difficult when working out so early, i do resistance training immedialty after cardio, but it can be done. 
> 
> THansk for reading the long post and the input.


empty stomach cardio is beneficial to fat burning because upon waking your body is in a state of glycogen deprevation from the 8 hour fast you performed while sleeping, doing AEROBIC LOW INTENSITY cardio will burn a higher percentage of calories from fat in this state for several reasons but the main one is that your body is low on glycogen, which is it's primary fuel source during anaerobic cardio, but is a fallback during aerobic, making fat the primary fuel source now

i see a couple options to keep you from going catabolic with empty stomach cardio, btw i use both of these in conjunction and they work very well..

1) if you can, order some bulk glutamine (around 15-20$ for 500g) and take around 5-10g before cardio, this will give your body a large amount of glutamine to use to replenish it's amino acid pool. The reason this is important is because when your body enters a catabolic state it breaks down muscle tissue into it's constitute amino acids and transports those to your liver where they are broken down into alanine and converted into glycogen via gluconeogenesis. But this can be avoided by providing your body with either protein for it to break down into amino acids or the aminos themselves. Btw, glutamine makes up about 60% of the aminos in muscle tissue and therefore is the most used amino during gluconeogenesis, that's why i recommend it.

2) Drink a whey protein shake before cardio (i prefer whey for this because whey is a fast acting protein so the aminos in it are digested within 45 minutes), this will supply your body with the aminos it needs and will spare your muscle from being burned for energy, and if your wondering if it will be counter-productive to drink a shake because the protein will be used and you won't be burning fat, don't worry, it won't unless your training with high enough intensity for it to be used to fuel gluconeogenesis, cool huh, lol. Btw, most protein shakes are infused with amino acids, just look on the jug and you'll see a list of the aminos in it, so you're getting glutamine from it.

i normally will drink a small shake (about 20g of protein), made with water and add glutamine and caffeine(if you didn't know, caffeine increases fat-oxidation, lowers perception of workout intensity, and spares muscle glycogen, making it a perfect companion during cardio), this combination increases my ability to perform cardio in both duration and intensity and gives me peace of mind knowing that my muscle has very little chance of being tapped into for energy.

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## higherdesire

Thanks Phate. I have glutamine in bulk now so I can mix 20g of whey, 5-10g of glutamine, and a scoop of my bulk caffiene, then work out at low intensity, say 120-125 bp, for 30-40 minutes and I should be better off than doing my 40-45 minutes of high intensity, 145-155, on a full stomach?

Did I get that or not? I am willing to try it for awhile and see. Again thanks a heck of a lot.

One more thing, shouldn't I wait 30 minutes or so to eat afterwards as well? My routine is to get up at 6:15 and hit the gym at 7:45, so i can swing it. What do you think?

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## Tigershark

Phate is the man when it comes to anything regarding nutrition.

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## higherdesire

tru dat

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## Ljavy17

> empty stomach cardio is beneficial to fat burning because upon waking your body is in a state of glycogen deprevation from the 8 hour fast you performed while sleeping, doing AEROBIC LOW INTENSITY cardio will burn a higher percentage of calories from fat in this state for several reasons but the main one is that your body is low on glycogen, which is it's primary fuel source during anaerobic cardio, but is a fallback during aerobic, making fat the primary fuel source now
> 
> i see a couple options to keep you from going catabolic with empty stomach cardio, btw i use both of these in conjunction and they work very well..
> 
> 1) if you can, order some bulk glutamine (around 15-20$ for 500g) and take around 5-10g before cardio, this will give your body a large amount of glutamine to use to replenish it's amino acid pool. The reason this is important is because when your body enters a catabolic state it breaks down muscle tissue into it's constitute amino acids and transports those to your liver where they are broken down into alanine and converted into glycogen via gluconeogenesis. But this can be avoided by providing your body with either protein for it to break down into amino acids or the aminos themselves. Btw, glutamine makes up about 60% of the aminos in muscle tissue and therefore is the most used amino during gluconeogenesis, that's why i recommend it.
> 
> 2) Drink a whey protein shake before cardio (i prefer whey for this because whey is a fast acting protein so the aminos in it are digested within 45 minutes), this will supply your body with the aminos it needs and will spare your muscle from being burned for energy, and if your wondering if it will be counter-productive to drink a shake because the protein will be used and you won't be burning fat, don't worry, it won't unless your training with high enough intensity for it to be used to fuel gluconeogenesis, cool huh, lol. Btw, most protein shakes are infused with amino acids, just look on the jug and you'll see a list of the aminos in it, so you're getting glutamine from it.
> 
> i normally will drink a small shake (about 20g of protein), made with water and add glutamine and caffeine(if you didn't know, caffeine increases fat-oxidation, lowers perception of workout intensity, and spares muscle glycogen, making it a perfect companion during cardio), this combination increases my ability to perform cardio in both duration and intensity and gives me peace of mind knowing that my muscle has very little chance of being tapped into for energy.



Now my personal question is. Glutamine is known to increase Insulin Levels. If you take Glutamine pre cardio in the morning this can shoot you insulin up, with the insulin up you cant burn corrent until insulin has been lowered? I am confused about this. Someone clarify.

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## DSM4Life

*Cardio on empty stomach? YES OR NO?* 

Let's take a look at the reasoning for doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach...

1. Glycogen is depleted therefore more fat is burned - This is the major benefit people who push this method use to support their position. What they fail to realize is that anyone with weight training experience has (or should have) more muscle than is needed to sustain a healthy life. All of this extra muscle is detrimental to the survival of a human! Why? First of all, the individual body has one purpose in life. That purpose is survival. Fat is a much more efficient energy source for survival because it is not energy costly - it does not require calories to sustain. On top of this, fat is slower burning, as it is more calories dense. Therefore muscle will be burned before fat when in a state of starvation, as fat would keep you alive longer! That's the catch - just because glycogen stores are depleted that doesn't mean the body will just go straight to fat stores for its energy. How great that would be! Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. In the morning, glycogen is substantially depleted, in effect, so is ATP. If you have read some of my other articles you would know that ATP is the only source of energy for muscular contraction.

Heavy productive weight training depletes glycogen and ATP with each contraction. ATP is not only the fuel for muscular contraction, it also plays a large role in protein synthesis and repair itself. After weight training ATP and glycogen are depleted (heavy weight training uses the anaerobic glycolysis mechanism on ATP production), and time is needed for glycogen stores to replenish. Glycogen replenishment can take up to 3 days to complete! If you deplete more glycogen than is necessary you are putting your body through unnecessary stress, which will inhibit your bodies ability to build muscle! Less ATP means less energy for proteins synthesis. It's apparent that you want to stimulate as much muscle growth as possible, with the smallest amount of glycogen and ATP depletion, which means that you should train as little as possible, while still achieving the desired results.

So how does this matter in this situation? Cardio in the morning on an empty stomach means cardio with little glycogen, and thus little ATP. Remember that cardiovascular work requires muscle fibers to contract. Just because an activity is aerobic doesn't mean it does not require muscle fibers to perform the work. The primary source of contraction during aerobic work is the Type I muscle fibers. They are called upon during aerobic work because they have a long fatigue threshold meaning - they can maintain contraction for long periods of time. Type I fibers use the oxidative phosphorylation (Kreb's cycle and electron transport) - an aerobic mechanism for energy production. This is the method of energy production in which the body metabolizes carbohydrates and fats to produce energy. The body may also use protein when carbohydrate and/or fat energy are not available through a process called gluconeogenesis. Carbs are used primarily for this, and consequently in aerobic work. This method of energy production produces, bar far, the most amount of energy. You can literally keep going forever until you pass out with this energy system. The reason for this is because the body will catabolize itself in order to meet energy demands. You guessed it - IT WILL BREAK DOWN MUSCLE TISSUE FOR ENERGY. Don't get me wrong here, the body will also break down fat for energy. I'm sure you have been taught in high school biology that fat is the preferred energy source during aerobic exercise. This is completely true for those who do not have any "excess" muscle sitting on their bones. You see, when we weight train we create an environment in which the body is forced to synthesize new proteins in order to protect itself from future stress. This is a basic principle in weight training - super compensation and overload. Overload is the means in inducing progressive super compensation. The body will not synthesize protein it doesn't need. This matters because during aerobic exercise the body has three choices in going about meeting the energy requirements. It can...

1. Use stored glycogen.

2. Use stored fat.

3. Use stored amino acids (muscle).

When we do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach we pretty much eliminate option one. Muscle glycogen stores can never be 100% depleted, if they were we wouldn't be able to move. But, there are three places where glycogen can be found in the body (remember - we don't actually eat glycogen). The first place is in the liver, the second place is in the muscles, and the third place is in the blood stream. In the morning, after your 6-10 hours with no energy (food) liver glycogen will be just about depleted, blood glycogen will have been burned for energy, and muscle glycogen will have been severely depleted. What this means is that your body is in a state of extreme catabolism, it is literally breaking down muscle at an alarming rate. This is because when the liver runs out of glycogen it takes alanine, arginine and the other substrates, from the muscles in order to make more. This is muscle breakdown (atrophy). After waking up, you start to do activities (yes, going to the bathroom and watching TV is an "activity"). What this means is that you are increasing the bodies immediate energy requirement, which means - more muscle being broken down to meet energy needs. Then, the worst thing you can do at this time is to introduce aerobic activity. This means another increase in energy requirement, and further increase in muscle catabolism. Not a good situation to put your body in. Simply having a light meal before this activity would prevent all of this. The body would be taken out of its extremely catabolic state, it would have immediate energy other than muscle to use as fuel, and you will also have more energy to do your cardio with. More effort going into your cardio equals more benefits coming out of it.

2. Increased metabolism for the rest of the day - This one is completely sensible. The thing is - the amount of food and the amount or glycogen you posses have no effect on this. Cardio in the morning is NOT a bad thing; cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is the bad thing. The solution to muscle catabolism? Eat before your cardio. 

http://www.musclebomb.com/cardio_empty_stomach.html

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## mannon

> Cardio in the morning is NOT a bad thing; cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is the bad thing. The solution to muscle catabolism? Eat before your cardio.



Ok that being said what do you wanna eat? Some lean protein, carbs or a shake?

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## Deltasaurus

interesting good thing i havent started fasted state cardio yet

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## Deltasaurus

bump everyone needs to read this

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## higherdesire

I am wieghing both sides. I wonder if having a small shake like phate said accomplishes the things DSM said. I have started the last few days to do the cardio with the glut and small whey shake in the AM, but today when I wen to the gym afterwards man my legs cramped like charlie horses on my first set. I am haveing trouble walking with the pain already. I think that is wierd. The only thing different is cardio timing and no meal.

Coincidince guys?

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## uk395

> *Cardio on empty stomach? YES OR NO?* 
> 
> Let's take a look at the reasoning for doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach...
> 
> 1. Glycogen is depleted therefore more fat is burned - This is the major benefit people who push this method use to support their position. What they fail to realize is that anyone with weight training experience has (or should have) more muscle than is needed to sustain a healthy life. All of this extra muscle is detrimental to the survival of a human! Why? First of all, the individual body has one purpose in life. That purpose is survival. Fat is a much more efficient energy source for survival because it is not energy costly - it does not require calories to sustain. On top of this, fat is slower burning, as it is more calories dense. Therefore muscle will be burned before fat when in a state of starvation, as fat would keep you alive longer! That's the catch - just because glycogen stores are depleted that doesn't mean the body will just go straight to fat stores for its energy. How great that would be! Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. In the morning, glycogen is substantially depleted, in effect, so is ATP. If you have read some of my other articles you would know that ATP is the only source of energy for muscular contraction.
> 
> Heavy productive weight training depletes glycogen and ATP with each contraction. ATP is not only the fuel for muscular contraction, it also plays a large role in protein synthesis and repair itself. After weight training ATP and glycogen are depleted (heavy weight training uses the anaerobic glycolysis mechanism on ATP production), and time is needed for glycogen stores to replenish. Glycogen replenishment can take up to 3 days to complete! If you deplete more glycogen than is necessary you are putting your body through unnecessary stress, which will inhibit your bodies ability to build muscle! Less ATP means less energy for proteins synthesis. It's apparent that you want to stimulate as much muscle growth as possible, with the smallest amount of glycogen and ATP depletion, which means that you should train as little as possible, while still achieving the desired results.
> 
> So how does this matter in this situation? Cardio in the morning on an empty stomach means cardio with little glycogen, and thus little ATP. Remember that cardiovascular work requires muscle fibers to contract. Just because an activity is aerobic doesn't mean it does not require muscle fibers to perform the work. The primary source of contraction during aerobic work is the Type I muscle fibers. They are called upon during aerobic work because they have a long fatigue threshold meaning - they can maintain contraction for long periods of time. Type I fibers use the oxidative phosphorylation (Kreb's cycle and electron transport) - an aerobic mechanism for energy production. This is the method of energy production in which the body metabolizes carbohydrates and fats to produce energy. The body may also use protein when carbohydrate and/or fat energy are not available through a process called gluconeogenesis. Carbs are used primarily for this, and consequently in aerobic work. This method of energy production produces, bar far, the most amount of energy. You can literally keep going forever until you pass out with this energy system. The reason for this is because the body will catabolize itself in order to meet energy demands. You guessed it - IT WILL BREAK DOWN MUSCLE TISSUE FOR ENERGY. Don't get me wrong here, the body will also break down fat for energy. I'm sure you have been taught in high school biology that fat is the preferred energy source during aerobic exercise. This is completely true for those who do not have any "excess" muscle sitting on their bones. You see, when we weight train we create an environment in which the body is forced to synthesize new proteins in order to protect itself from future stress. This is a basic principle in weight training - super compensation and overload. Overload is the means in inducing progressive super compensation. The body will not synthesize protein it doesn't need. This matters because during aerobic exercise the body has three choices in going about meeting the energy requirements. It can...
> ...


Thats spot on and a very good bit of info. before i do my cardio in the morning i have one scoop of whey which is about 20g protein mixed with some glucose with added vit c glucose (dextrose) is the bodys perfered energy goes straight in your gutand into your blood streem does the job nicely and i have been loosing loads of fat and keeping my muscle and half hour after when i get back some oats and wheat with raisins and skimmed milk a kiwi fruit and maybe one more scoop of whey  :Wink/Grin:

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## MuscleScience

I think you guys have pretty much said it all.....LOL

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## dedic8ed1

What I don't agree about all this talk is the whey protein shake before empty stomach cardio,or any thing for that matter.Your gonna cause an insulin spike which signals the pancreas to produce insulin then signaling the liver to produce sugar,at which point your not gonna use fat for energy your gonna use the sugar your body just produced.why would this be a good thing when trying to tap into the fat for energy when you just caused the body to produce it's own sugar for energy?This is a widely debated subject that's why I do my own lab rat study and what works for me is heart rate no higher then 110 for no longer then 25min and rite after I have my first meal of the day and I've never seen the fat fall off so quickly and maintain all my muscle and fullness.Don't waste your money on shakes in the morning save them for pwo.Empty stomach cardio is just like it sounds empty stomach cardio.Keep it simple don't think to much.

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## Deltasaurus

this is a tough one, jury is still not out on this LOL, im almost ready to try it yet i want to keep my muscle, man this is a head ache

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## dedic8ed1

> this is a tough one, jury is still not out on this LOL, im almost ready to try it yet i want to keep my muscle, man this is a head ache


The process of elimanation bro.You gotta find out what works for you.

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## dedic8ed1

This is the products marketing strategy at work.They come up with so called logical reasons to use there product and boom your using there products more and more.Don't listen to these so called bbr's pro or not.There paid to tout these products,I'd say what ever they told me to also if all I had to do was present all the hard work I put into my diet with a smile and collect a check.For instance Jay cutler uses Hydroxycut to get him prepared to win the olympia.Do you really think he does?Save your money and buy food and figure out how your body responds to different diet and training protocols.

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## Hunter-S-Thompson

I've tried both, noticed no difference as far as fat loss... only thing I ever noticed was how $hitty I felt during/after am cardio on an empty stomach.. had no energy at all... I stopped fasted cardio for that reason... people will debate this back and forth, but when it comes down to it, I think you should just listen to your body...if you feel so crappy like I did, somethings just not right..

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## NewMuscle83

> The process of elimanation bro.You gotta find out what works for you.


That is correct. Everyone is different. Personally, I think I will throw in 1/2 scoop of protein before am cardio which will give me about 10-12g of protein with 2-3g of glutamine and bcaa. I will try this all of next week. If I don't find good weight loss, I will eliminate the whey and do caffeine only.

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## higherdesire

Yeah I am trying it Phates way for a couple weeks to see. If it isn't doing it for me I will switch it up and try it on true empty, if that isn't my niche I will get back to my old routine.

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## Phate

> Yeah I am trying it Phates way for a couple weeks to see. If it isn't doing it for me I will switch it up and try it on true empty, if that isn't my niche I will get back to my old routine.


i'm not using whey before cardio as much anymore, i switched to 16oz of egg whites, plus BCAAs, glutamine, caffeine, beta alanine and arginine, but either way should work well

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## higherdesire

I missed the arginine on the orignal post, I will add it as well. Why the eggwhite over the whey? Aren;t they much slower in digestion?

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## Phate

> I missed the arginine on the orignal post, I will add it as well. Why the eggwhite over the whey? Aren;t they much slower in digestion?


you didn't miss it, i just add it because i have a few extra pounds of it sitting around so i might as well use it, tastes like ass though

i don't like powders and such and try to stick to whole foods as much as possible, that's the only reason

as far as higher digestion, you mean the bioavailibility of the egg whites and whey, the thing with egg whites is once they are pastuerized(heated to a certain temperature for a certain amount of time to kill bacteria), the enzyme in them that allows for the increase from 75% bioavailibility to 95% is activated, and the liquid egg whites i buy are pastuerized already so i'm good to go

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## NewMuscle83

> you didn't miss it, i just add it because i have a few extra pounds of it sitting around so i might as well use it, tastes like ass though
> 
> i don't like powders and such and try to stick to whole foods as much as possible, that's the only reason
> 
> as far as higher digestion, you mean the bioavailibility of the egg whites and whey, the thing with egg whites is once they are pastuerized(heated to a certain temperature for a certain amount of time to kill bacteria), the enzyme in them that allows for the increase from 75% bioavailibility to 95% is activated, and the liquid egg whites i buy are pastuerized already so i'm good to go


Sounds nice, but for a person on a budget, I believe the whey would cost me less money.

Btw, how does that taste/feel when you drink it? Can't imagine it's all that delicious..

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## Phate

> Sounds nice, but for a person on a budget, I believe the whey would cost me less money.
> 
> Btw, how does that taste/feel when you drink it? Can't imagine it's all that delicious..


if you mean the egg whites, i drink them very cold and it has almost no taste, like water

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## dedic8ed1

> i'm not using whey before cardio as much anymore, i switched to 16oz of egg whites, plus BCAAs, glutamine, caffeine, beta alanine and arginine, but either way should work well


Kinda takes the point out of calling it empty stomach cardio if you put all that in your stomach.Why not try doing it for it's purpose "empty stomach cardio" for a week and then determine if it's for you or not?

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## Phate

> Kinda takes the point out of calling it empty stomach cardio if you put all that in your stomach.Why not try doing it for it's purpose "empty stomach cardio" for a week and then determine if it's for you or not?


i have done it both ways, but i don't think "empty stomach cardio" is a very descritive term, a much better one would be "glycogen depleted cardio" or just cardio in a glycogen depleted state as that's more accurate

my logic behind taking things before cardio is thus, the things i am taking do one of two things: they either help the body promote fat oxidation or create an amino acid rich state in the blood and fill the amino acid pool

the reason for this is simple, if the amino acids are used for energy instead of fat, then that means that if they weren't there i would be using muscle instead, and i would prefer to burn through the aminos i ingest before cardio then the muscle i work so hard so put on

a certain percentage of energy during glycogen depleted cardio is going to come from gluconeogenesis, and though we try to keep that percentage as low as possible, it's still there, so i would prefer to burn through aminos that i ingest instead of ones that i build

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## NewMuscle83

I actually just learned that in my nutrition class. For the first 20 minutes of activity, the body use glycogen in the liver and the muscles for energy. When the body's glycogen runs out, the second option becomes for the body to break down amino acid into glycogen. However, after 20 minutes, and if the activity continued at a low-moderate pace (60-75% of MHR) then the body will use stored fat for energy.

I think it makes perfect sense to take a little protein before cardio, since that's what's gonna be used in the first 20 minutes anyways.

Also, I know I just basically repeated what Phate said. Whatever.

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## Phate

> I actually just learned that in my nutrition class. For the first 20 minutes of activity, the body use glycogen in the liver and the muscles for energy. When the body's glycogen runs out, the second option becomes for the body to break down amino acid into glycogen. However, after 20 minutes, and if the activity continued at a low-moderate pace (60-75% of MHR) then the body will use stored fat for energy.
> 
> I think it makes perfect sense to take a little protein before cardio, since that's what's gonna be used in the first 20 minutes anyways.
> 
> Also, I know I just basically repeated what Phate said. Whatever.


agreed, i've also read studies that show that fat is best burned in an oxygen saturated(that's kinda obvious since fat is oxidized) and a water super saturated environment, which makes sense as well

this supports the theory that low intensity aerobic cardio is best for fat burning

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## NewMuscle83

> agreed, i've also read studies that show that fat is best burned in an *oxygen saturated*(that's kinda obvious since fat is oxidized) and a *water super saturated* environment, which makes sense as well
> 
> this supports the theory that low intensity aerobic cardio is best for fat burning


I concur.

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## dedic8ed1

> I actually just learned that in my nutrition class. For the first 20 minutes of activity, the body use glycogen in the liver and the muscles for energy. When the body's glycogen runs out, the second option becomes for the body to break down amino acid into glycogen. However, after 20 minutes, and if the activity continued at a low-moderate pace (60-75% of MHR) then the body will use stored fat for energy.
> 
> I think it makes perfect sense to take a little protein before cardio, since that's what's gonna be used in the first 20 minutes anyways.
> 
> Also, I know I just basically repeated what Phate said. Whatever.


Very informative description 48 and Phate I'm impressed.I retract my previous statement.But I'm still not throwing money away on supps.What I'm doing works for me.But what about the insulin spike from the whey?I'm guessing the aminos need to digest quickly to be effective asap.

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## Phate

> Very informative description 48 and Phate I'm impressed.I retract my previous statement.But I'm still not throwing money away on supps.What I'm doing works for me.But what about the insulin spike from the whey?I'm guessing the aminos need to digest quickly to be effective asap.


the whey that i used to use had only 1g of carb per serving, so not much of an insulin spike at all

BCAA's are catabolized in the skeletal muscle of the body. ( Therefore bypass the liver). Skeletal muscle contains enzymes that Break down the BCAA's & utilize there energy.

Complete oxidation of Valine yeilds succinyl CoA. Isoleucine = succinyl CoA & acetyl CoA, Leucine = acetyl CoA & acetoacetate

Leucine is the only amino acid completely oxidized in skeletal muscle for energy. (ketogenic)

In other words BCAA's by pass the kidney are are used directly within the muscles for energy. So sipping on BCAA's before ,during & after training will keep a steady supply in the blood stream & "trick" your body into not Catabolizing muscle tissue to have BCAA's in the blood stream. (ie: anti-catabolic in nature)

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## NewMuscle83

yea, the key is to go "low-carb" as much as possible on your pre-cardio meal. My protein only has 1g carb as well. 

Since I will start doing 2 cardio sessions daily tomorrow, I will do the am cardio with only 1/2 scoop of protein. As for my second session, I will weight lift, pop a few amino capsules as soon as I'm done, and then immediately hit the cardio. I think it will work best this way. I will do 30 mins on each session. According to a recent study, two 30 minute sessions of cardio have the same exact result as one 60 minute session.

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## jfalco

> I've tried both, noticed no difference as far as fat loss... only thing I ever noticed was how $hitty I felt during/after am cardio on an empty stomach.. had no energy at all... I stopped fasted cardio for that reason... people will debate this back and forth, but when it comes down to it, I think you should just listen to your body...if you feel so crappy like I did, somethings just not right..


Bingo!

If you're the rare person that doesn't feel like crap when you do cardio on an empty stomach, maybe you're not loosing muscle. For most people, you will feel like shit and you will burn muscle.

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## aer_vlad

Very interesting thread. 

First, Phate, you mentioned that your protein has about 1g of carbohydrate; and therefore, causes no change in insulin . Correct me if I'm wrong, but protein (including whey) causes a fairly large raise in insulin - just by itself. Your pancreas isn't only responsive to carbohydrates.

Also, in contrast to you all who feel "shitty" after a fasted cardio state, I do not. My head actually feels clearer and I'm more focused it seems. After some research, this could be attributed to increased catecholamine activity. To each his own... but that is my own experience.

Another point I would like to raise: from what I have read, your body will metabolize stored glycogen, fat, or amino acids (muscle) for energy. From these three primary energy sources, your body will take the path of least resistance and use glycogen first, fat second, and muscle third. Now I'm not saying your body is run exactly like a car and once one tank is empty *ding!* it moves on to the next. But from a general point of view, glycogen is mostly depleted (after eight hours of sleeping, glycogen in the liver is almost all metabolized), then low intensity aerobic exercise would cause the body to metabolize adipose tissue as energy. 

With supplemental BCAA's (as previously mentioned by Phate: "BCAA's are catabolized in the skeletal muscle of the body (therefore bypassing the liver). Skeletal muscle contains enzymes that break down the BCAA's & utilize there energy) that fasted state cardio could be beneficial. 

Whether or not BCAA cause any insulin response, I do not know (does anybody know the answer to this?) but point in case, raised insulin levels would blunt the effects of adipose oxidation. 

Anyways, that's my two cents. I seem to be the Devil's Advocate here lol.

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## kalspic

is this sticky material?

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## aer_vlad

Alright, after some quick Wiki research (meaning this isn't concrete evidence, but I'll assume close enough) that:

"It has been demonstrated that BCAA supplementation in accordance with carbohydrate intake following resistance exercise increases insulin output by 221%, which is much greater than the 66% supplementation without leucine. Leucine is the most readily oxidized BCAA and therefore the most effective at causing insulin secretion from the pancreas, and stimulating the metabolic pathway"

Also, in rebuttal to Phates' comment regarded BCAA metabolism only in muscle tissue is slightly invalid. According to et al. Am J Physiol, Leucine is utilized in the muscle, adipose tissue, and liver for the synthesis of sterols (cholestrol which is the precursor to several biochemical pathways, including steroid hormones). In support of Phates' previous statement, BCAA are metabolized _seven times greater_ in muscle and fat tissue as opposed to the liver. None the less, the liver does play a role in the metabolizing BCAA and is not completely bypassed.

In light of this information, I feel that BCAA supplementation seems be rather a moot point in reducing an insulin response.

Discuss?

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## Phate

> Very interesting thread. 
> 
> First, Phate, you mentioned that your protein has about 1g of carbohydrate; and therefore, causes no change in insulin . Correct me if I'm wrong, but protein (including whey) causes a fairly large raise in insulin - just by itself. Your pancreas isn't only responsive to carbohydrates.
> *correct though there isn't a significant increase in comparison to carbohyrates i believe
> 
> Human insulinotropic response to oral ingestion of native and hydrolysed whey protein.
> Power O, Hallihan A, Jakeman P.
> Human Science Research Unit, Department of Physical Education and Sports Science, University of Limerick, Limerick, Ireland, [email protected].
> The insulinotropic response to the ingestion of whey protein and whey protein hydrolysate, independent of carbohydrate, is not known. This study examined the effect of protein hydrolysis on the insulinotropic response to the ingestion of whey protein. Sixteen healthy males ingested a 500 mL solution containing either 45 g of whey protein (WPI) or whey protein hydrolysate (WPH). The estimated rate of gastric empting was not altered by hydrolysis of the protein [18 (3) vs. 23 (3) min, n = 16; P = 0.15]. Maximum plasma insulin concentration (C (max)) occurred later (40 vs. 60 min) and was 28% [234 (26) vs. 299 (31) mM, P = 0.018] greater following ingestion of the WPH compared to the WPI leading to a 43% increase [7.6 (0.9) vs. 10.8 (2.6) nM, P = 0.21] in the AUC of insulin for the WPH. Of the amino acids with known insulinotropic properties only Phe demonstrated a significantly greater maximal concentration [C (max); 65 (2) vs. 72 (3) muM, n = 16; P = 0.01] and increase (+22%) in AUC following ingestion of the WPH. In conclusion, ingestion of whey protein is an effective insulin secretagogue. Hydrolysis of whey protein prior to ingestion augments the maximal insulin concentration by a mechanism that is unrelated to gastric emptying of the peptide solution.
> ...


*glad to have you*




> Alright, after some quick Wiki research (meaning this isn't concrete evidence, but I'll assume close enough) that:
> 
> "It has been demonstrated that BCAA supplementation in accordance with carbohydrate intake following resistance exercise increases insulin output by 221%, which is much greater than the 66% supplementation without leucine. Leucine is the most readily oxidized BCAA and therefore the most effective at causing insulin secretion from the pancreas, and stimulating the metabolic pathway"
> 
> Also, in rebuttal to Phates' comment regarded BCAA metabolism only in muscle tissue is slightly invalid. According to et al. Am J Physiol, Leucine is utilized in the muscle, adipose tissue, and liver for the synthesis of sterols (cholestrol which is the precursor to several biochemical pathways, including steroid hormones). In support of Phates' previous statement, BCAA are metabolized _seven times greater_ in muscle and fat tissue as opposed to the liver. None the less, the liver does play a role in the metabolizing BCAA and is not completely bypassed.
> *good points, i'll have to read up on this*
> In light of this information, I feel that BCAA supplementation seems be rather a moot point in reducing an insulin response.
> 
> Discuss?


i love debate, especially intelligent debate and i'm glad you bring that aspect to the table

respect

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## youngmuscle123

> is this sticky material?


I hope so...literally just answered like 10 of my questions on cardio in a single thread.

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## eatrainrest

be smart kiddies  :Wink:  eat before your cardio! lol.. a little isopure with added bcca/or glutamine should do the trick

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## mho

So... the fastest way to burn fat is to run on an empty stomach, but you will sacrifice muscle mass by doing this as well. Got it.

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## aer_vlad

Thanks for publishing the study Phate. 

For further investigation, I'm curious to fat consumption and its' insulinogenic properties compare to that of protein and carbohydrates. What seems to be the mainstream opinion (at least in terms internet forums), fats decrease insulin secretagogue and glycogen re-synthesis. I have examined studies citing no effect or indifference to fat consumption and its effects thereof. But I most certainly digress from the scope of this thread. Although, I would be glad to dig those studies up if anyone is interested...

Similar to empty stomach cardio via glycogen depleted state, cardio post workout (being resistance training) seems to have comparable properties. Whether there is _complete_ liver glycogen depletion after a resistance training is unknown to me. What I have read (magazines etc - i.e. not complete reputable sources) and from hearsay (and by no means am I saying this statement factual...it may or may not be) that 45 minutes of weight training depletes most glycogen in the liver and triggers a distinct raise in cortisol. I'm sure intensity and pre-workout nutrition would play a predominate role in determining the body's glycogen consumption. Anyone to shed more light on this 'magic number' would be appreciated...

In sum, does anyone here find cardio after weight training beneficial/detrimental? I suppose the same would go for morning cardio on an empty stomach. Whether there is significant differences between the catabolic nature (assuming there is any) of these two scenarios, I don't know, but I would imagine they're closely related. I just wonder if one is better then the other. 

My last thought for the evening: in simple terms, insulin is anabolic hormone. Consequently, a raise in insulin will not only increase muscle protein turnover, but minimize amino acid breakdown. The latter requires only a small secretion of insulin to minimize catabolism: 

Branched-chain amino acids as fuels and anabolic signals in human muscle.
Rennie MJ, Bohé J, Smith K, Wackerhage H, Greenhaff P.

Medical Sciences, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen AB24 3FX, UK. [email protected]

During exercise, there is an increase in amino acid (AA) oxidation accompanied by a depression in whole-body protein synthesis and an increase in protein breakdown. Leucine oxidation increases in proportion to energy expenditure, but the total contribution of BCAA to fuel provision during exercise is minor and insufficient to increase dietary protein requirements. When investigating the effects of AA on the control of muscle protein synthesis (MPS), we showed that increased availability of mixed AAs caused a rise in human MPS to about the same extent as complete meals. Leucine alone (and to some extent other essential, but not nonessential, AAs) can stimulate MPS for a short period, suggesting that leucine acts as a signal as well as a substrate. MPS stimulation by infused AAs shows tachyphylaxis, returning to basal rates after 2 h, possibly explaining why chronically elevated leucine delivery does not elevate MPS clinically. Increased availability of essential amino acids (EAAs) results in dose-related responses of MPS, but, in elderly subjects, there is blunted sensitivity and responsiveness associated with decreased total RNA and mRNA for signaling proteins and signaling activity. Increases of MPS due to EAAs are associated with elevation of signaling activity in the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR)/p70 ribosomal subunit S6 kinase eukaryotic initiation factor 4 binding protein 1 pathway, without requiring rises of plasma insulin availability above 10 microU/mL. However, at insulin of <5 microU/mL, AAs appear to stimulate MPS without increasing mTOR signaling. Further increasing availability of insulin to postprandial values increases signaling activity, but has no further effect on MPS.

PMID: 16365095 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

In other words, muscle protein synthesis was preserved beyond an insulin level slightly above baseline. However, the amount of BCAA's to achieve the "slight" response is not stated by the study abstract - I will read more later. And the big question: if only small insulin elevation wards off muscle catabolsim, does the same hold true for body fat? Perhaps not - at least I hope. Again, anyone have any idea? I suppose solid food would inflict the same reaction - my beef against BCAA's supplements are their high cost and unnecessary indigestion if whole food is available. They do offer specific amounts which may be reflected by the study and therefore, beneficial if trying to maintain the "fasted" state.

I've seemed to have raised a few points off topic, which I apologize, but I find this debate most compelling and it strikes my fancy haha. And thank you Phate for contributing your knowledge and experience. I would like to point out that by means of rebuttal, I mean no disrespect. By any means, if what I post is flawed, please correct me. I do not claim to be medically accurate nor qualified to make legitimate assumptions - I just apply what I have read to my personal experiences and hopefully share what I know and invest in what others will hopefully do the same.

Anyways, goodnight for now.

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## eatrainrest

yes, post workout LOW intensity cardio i have found to be affective no longer than 30 minutes but, i take down some 10g BCAA's to be safe prior. immeadiately after i follow with 2 scoops whey with waxy maize startch, or plain bagel. have found this very effective in regards to preserving mucsle. using anaerobics is where you can screw up and start cannabilizing muscle tissue. same principles as AM with PM, except for PM i will ahve had a meal probly 2.5 hours just before i start cardio than having AM cardio in a fasting state of at least 8 hours. POST WORKOUT IS DEFINATELY RECOMMENDED IMO just dont exceed 30 min and make sure it follows immediately after resistance training and follow with proper PWO nutrition. here are some interesting reads.

ANAEROBICS AND MUSCLE TISSUE CANNABLISM

WHEN GLUCOSE IS DEPLETING DURING ANAEROBIC ACTIVITY, THERE ARE STRESS HORMONES RELEASED BY THE ADRENAL GLANDS TO TRIGGER THE LIVER TO RELEASE ENZYMES INTO THE BLOODSTREAM FOR THE DEAMINATION AND CANNIBALISM OF AMINO ACIDS, BLOOD PROTEINS, ORGAN TISSUE, AND MUSCLE TISSUE. IN THE ABSENCE OF GLUCOSE DURING INTENSE ANAEROBIC ACTIVITY, THE ENERGY NEEDS ARE BEYOND THE OXYGEN AND FATTY ACIDS SUPPLY, AND MUSCLE TISSUE WILL HAVE TO BE CANNIBALIZED TO PROVIDE FOR THE BALANCE OF THE ENRGY NEEDED TO KEEP UP WITH THIS CONTINUED DEMAND. IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THE DEPLETION OF CELLUAR ENERGY DURING RESISTANCE EXERCISE TRIGGERS THE CANNIBALISM OF THE INTRACELLUAR PROTEINS IN THE WORKING MUSCLES ONLY, NOT AMINO ACIDS, BLOOD PROTEINS, AND ORGAN TISSUE, LIKE THE CASE OF AEROBIC ACTIVITY.

CARDIO ALONE

THE FACT IS THAT WHILE USING CARDIO ALONE, AND WHILE ON A STRICT DIET, YOUR MUSCLE WILL BE CANNABLIZED AND USED FOR ENERGY INSTEAD OF FAT SINCE THE BODY WILL DESIRE TO MAINTAIN FAT FOR SURVIVAL DURING THE EXISTING LOW CALORIE DIET.

POST WORKOUT ACTIVITY AND FAT LOSS

ASIDE FROM EXCLUSIVE HIGH REP TRAINING WITH A HIGH RECOVERY HEART RATE FOR AEROBIC STIMULATION, THERE IS LITTLE FATTY ACID USE FOR ENERGY DURING THE RESISTANCE WORKOUT.
THE MAJORITY OF ENERGY USED DURING RESISTANCE EXERCISE COMES FROM GLUCOSE AND/OR STORED SUGAR (GLYOGEN) IN THE MUSCLES. HOWEVER, DURING RECOVERY IMMEDAITELY AFTER (AND BETWEEN) WORKOUTS, FATTY ACIDS PROVIDE A GREATER PROPORTION OF THE ENERGY REQUIRED BY THE MUSCLE TO FUNCTION DURING LESS INTENSE POST WORKOUT ACTIVITY WHILE IT TAKES UP NUTRIENTS SUCH AS BLOOD GLUCOSE AND AMINO ACIDS FOR CELLUAR REPAIRS, OR ANABOLISM. WITH THIS IN MIND, THE PERFORMANCE OF POST-WORKOUT LOW LEVEL ACTIVITY WILL REQUIRE YOUR FAT CELLS TO RELEASE GREATER AMOUNTS OF FATTY ACIDS;THAT WILL IN TURN BE USED BY THE MUSCLES WHILE THEY TAKE UP RECOVERY NUTRIENTS IN CARB RICH POST-WORKOUT MEALS. LOW LEVEL ACTIVITY CAN EFFECTIVELY BE MAINTAINED FOR PORLONGED PERIODS, AND FOR A SUGGESTED MINIMUM TIME PERIOD OF 5 TO TEN MINUTES AFTER YOUR RESISTANCE TRAINING WORKOUT.

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## DNoMac

There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.

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## eatrainrest

> There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to *see what works best for you.* I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.


thats really all that matters, you can argue all you want but it comes down to that!

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## Phate

> There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.


i agree completely, aer_vlad and i are just debating for the sake of debating as it's nice to have an intelligent opponent to bounce ideas/arguments off of

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## JohnThePhoenix

so what would you phate or you aer suggest as proper BCAA supplementation as far as how much and what?

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## faight

good question

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## eatrainrest

quick protein, no carbs

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## aer_vlad

> There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.


This is a very true I think. People can cite medical studies all day and conjure up as much data to prove a point. In reality, it all boils down to what works _for you_. What seems to be beneficial could be just as detrimental to the next person. Crazy! But anyways, I enjoy arguing for the sake of competing ideas and as Phate mentioned, bouncing ideas off one another in effort to learn.




> so what would you phate or you aer suggest as proper BCAA supplementation as far as how much and what?


The "supplement standard" or at least the most common, is 5g of the 2:1:1 BCAA ratio: L-Leucine, L-Isoleucine, L-Valine, respectively. For the sake sanity, I will assume this is fairly suitable - I doubt anyone is going to start buying amino acids separately and use your kitchen as a lab to mix and match.

Right now, meaning from my current standpoint based on my experiences and research done thus far, that for a straight forward number, I'd recommend 5g BCAA paired with 5g EAA (L-Lysine, L-Threonine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Histidine, L-Methionine). Maybe less - more isn't better in this case: "amino acid stimulated human muscle protein synthesis [...] without a large rise in insulin concentration." Decreased insulin response is of primary importance, the whole point of morning cardio. The published study, which I will continually cite in this post, utilized a relativity small amount of 10g. In order to starve off a catabolic environment, "increased exogenous BCAAs is likely to stimulate muscle protein synthesis (and possibly decreased muscle protein breakdown)." For fasted cardio in the morning, I could consume BCAA/EAA's 5-10 minutes within the start of the workout. Perhaps sooner. My reasoning is derived from the immediate glycogen depletion (from a fasted state) and adipose tissue synthesis, occurring roughly 20 minutes into exercise. Logically, this (magic! *sarcasm*) number would be (much) lower in an already fasted state. Exogenous BCAA/EAA supplementation suggests "that amino acid oxidation increased during exercise with whole-body protein synthesis depressed" paired with "increased blood flow to muscle as occurs during exercise would be a major stimulatory factor in increasing leucine oxidation." 

I would recommend low intensity cardio, no longer then 2 hours. Probably 45-1 hour. Muscle protein synthesis has been proven to decrease substantially after 2 hours, despite the continued availability of BCAA/EAA. "In the post-exercise period, the data suggested that [...] protein synthesis and breakdown became positive." Therefore, immediately following cardio, or even during the "cool down," I would recommend a (whey) protein shake. Evidence illustrates endurance training improves protein metabolism, efficiency, and net balance. In other words, nothing drastic. I keep seeing people with 100g protein shakes or some ridiculously amount. Whether or not it is beneficial after resistance training is beyond the scope of this blurb, but post aerobic training, 20-30g protein would suffice. Keep it in moderation.

As a catch all disclaimer, BCAA/EAA metabolism accompanied by adipose tissue synthesis and reduced muscle catabolism is determined by a myriad of factors, including _individual_ muscle RNA : protein ratio and the connective tissue extracellular three-dimensional network. Hormonal levels and/or imbalances would also play a large role accompanied by the individual VO2 capacity and intensity/frequency/time of exercise. In sum, your own experiences are better then what science can "prove." But in its defense, it helps provide a starting point.

Sources:
1. Food and Health R&D Laboratories, Meiji Seika Kaisha Ltd., 5-3-1 Chiyoda, Sakado, Saitama 350-0289, Japan. [email protected]

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## bmit

Personally I don't like the idea of going 8 hours without eating (catabolic) and then going and doing a catabolic activity (cardio) on an empty stomach. So I take down a whey protein shake upon waking and wait 45 minutes do digest and then hit cardio for low-mod intensity for 45 minutes and throw down bfast. and i also do 20 minutes cardio pwo when cutting.

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## clancywiggum

I've been able to reduce my bodyfat percentage from 15 down to 9 by doing the fasted-state cardio first thing in the morning. Tons of energy before and right after my run, and I wait an hour afterwards to eat my first meal.

If your diet is spot on, preferably in a slightly higher carb range, and your diet is predictable in the sense that your body gets fed at the same intervals throughout the day, then this whole idea of your body instantly slipping into some dire state of catabolism b/c it's jogging for 40 minutes on an empty stomach seems a bit alarmist. 

You gotta realize that most of the scientific studies on this subject probably sampled a limited number of untrained people with possibly high-fat, high salt, or high sugar diets. Without a more longitudinal study, the conclusions of this dilemma cannot be relied upon. Therefore, I take those experiments with a grain of salt.

While catabolism may be higher in the morning upon awakening, it's not like pounds of muscle are sloughing off every 15 minutes you don't get some food. If your diet throughout the day is solid and plentiful, then I don't think this is a major or noticeable issue. 

just my 2 cents  :Smilie:

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## eatrainrest

> I've been able to reduce my bodyfat percentage from 15 down to 9 by doing the fasted-state cardio first thing in the morning. Tons of energy before and right after my run, and I wait an hour afterwards to eat my first meal.
> 
> If your diet is spot on, preferably in a slightly higher carb range, and your diet is predictable in the sense that your body gets fed at the same intervals throughout the day, then this whole idea of your body instantly slipping into some dire state of catabolism b/c it's jogging for 40 minutes on an empty stomach seems a bit alarmist. 
> 
> You gotta realize that most of the scientific studies on this subject probably sampled a limited number of untrained people with possibly high-fat, high salt, or high sugar diets. Without a more longitudinal study, the conclusions of this dilemma cannot be relied upon. Therefore, I take those experiments with a grain of salt.
> 
> *While catabolism may be higher in the morning upon awakening, it's not like pounds of muscle are sloughing off every 15 minutes you don't get some food. If your diet throughout the day is solid and plentiful, then I don't think this is a major or noticeable issue.* 
> 
> just my 2 cents


i agree with most of what your saying but upon waking up your body is in starvation mode and breakfast is essential. not everybody is the same you are in an extreme catabolic state and prolonging it would do nothing but more damage. can be as simple as sucking down a shake with added BCAA's/glutamine to give the body something to know its not starving. you may be getting stronger doing something like this and not even noticing it because you currently do not eat anything. if i were to run AM cardio, it would defiantely not be complete empty tank

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## jbm

> There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see _what works best for you_. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.


Agreed! just keep it simple...

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## laduem88

> i have done it both ways, but i don't think "empty stomach cardio" is a very descritive term, a much better one would be "glycogen depleted cardio" or just cardio in a glycogen depleted state as that's more accurate
> 
> my logic behind taking things before cardio is thus, the things i am taking do one of two things: they either help the body promote fat oxidation or create an amino acid rich state in the blood and fill the amino acid pool
> 
> the reason for this is simple, if the amino acids are used for energy instead of fat, then that means that if they weren't there i would be using muscle instead, and *i would prefer to burn through the aminos i ingest before cardio then the muscle i work so hard so put on
> *
> a certain percentage of energy during glycogen depleted cardio is going to come from gluconeogenesis, and though we try to keep that percentage as low as possible, it's still there, so i would prefer to burn through aminos that i ingest instead of ones that i build



does all this still apply when your on a cycle? i feel like even if you did cardio on an empty stomach when your on aas you wont loose muscle

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## Phate

> does all this still apply when your on a cycle? i feel like even if you did cardio on an empty stomach when your on aas you wont loose muscle


on cycle you wouldn't have to worry about it much

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## MACKATTACK

This past week I have incorporated Morning cardio on an empty stomach and have seen quicker changes in relation to BF% and it helps to jump start the day and your metabolism in a great way.

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## Redskinschamps

How do you carb up the week of the show if you've been off carbs for 7 weeks

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## eatrainrest

> How do you carb up the week of the show if you've been off carbs for 7 weeks


start your own thread, that is hijacking a thread, especially a good one

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## Jon the Rooster

Great info guys!!! Answered All my questions!!! :Wink/Grin:

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## ghettoboyd

> agreed, i've also read studies that show that fat is best burned in an oxygen saturated(that's kinda obvious since fat is oxidized) and a water super saturated environment, which makes sense as well
> 
> this supports the theory that low intensity aerobic cardio is best for fat burning


i wish i could slow myself down, ive been doing 30 mins HIIT on empty stomac 4 to 5 days per week. i just cant help but push myself to the limit. i see the fat melting away but the scale drops ever so slightly as if im keeping all my mass so its really hard to gage my proggress other than looking in the mirror. would i be better off just keeping it slow and steady? sorry to hyjack.

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## JinNtonic

The info on the board is amazing... Thank you.

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## elpropiotorvic

I know the thread is very old but I want to contribute with my exp..today I did my workout on an empty stomach(as usual), I took 50 mg of caffeine in pill at 5:15 a.m and I made a BCAA complex that contains 2400 mg of glutamine, leucine, isoleucine, arginine and valine(not much but didn't have money at the time) .. I took about 125 to 200 ml of this at 5:40 and got to the gym ... Started my workout with HIIT, the beckham sprinting workout to be precise, for twenty minutes; during that time I drank another 125 ml of the BCAA complex, felt good, then did my back and triceps routine, I felt awesome, great pump ( arginine probably helped here) and focus was there as well, after got home took my whey immediately and felt that anabolic state of hunger. For me I don't k ow it it wslas the caffeine or the BCAA's ( I have worked only on caffeine and didn't feel as good as today) or the placebo but definetly felt great I'm looking forward to working out tomorrow, what do u guys think placebo, BCAA, or placebo and caffeine or BCAA and caffeine?

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## eatrainrest

> I know the thread is very old but I want to contribute with my exp..today I did my workout on an empty stomach(as usual), I took 50 mg of caffeine in pill at 5:15 a.m and I made a BCAA complex that contains 2400 mg of glutamine, leucine, isoleucine, arginine and valine(not much but didn't have money at the time) .. I took about 125 to 200 ml of this at 5:40 and got to the gym ... Started my workout with HIIT, the beckham sprinting workout to be precise, for twenty minutes; during that time I drank another 125 ml of the BCAA complex, felt good, then did my back and triceps routine, I felt awesome, great pump ( arginine probably helped here) and focus was there as well, *after got home took my whey immediately and felt that anabolic state of hunger*. For me I don't k ow it it wslas the caffeine or the BCAA's ( I have worked only on caffeine and didn't feel as good as today) or the placebo but definetly felt great I'm looking forward to working out tomorrow, what do u guys think placebo, BCAA, or placebo and caffeine or BCAA and caffeine?


i think your definately overthinking the process. Generally stick to what works for you. i can tell you that general rule of thumb is LI cardio followed by pro/carb meal, not followed by HIIT and then workout... bad idea IMO. Especially if your only having whey PWO. i think eventually you will digress, or not have the maximum gains that you may want to have.

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## elpropiotorvic

> i think your definately overthinking the process. Generally stick to what works for you. i can tell you that general rule of thumb is LI cardio followed by pro/carb meal, not followed by HIIT and then workout... bad idea IMO. Especially if your only having whey PWO. i think eventually you will digress, or not have the maximum gains that you may want to have.


No, I don't do LI I just start the workout with HIIT and then workout. The whey is not my postworkout meal, I have also two eggs with broccoli onions and a slice of brown bread and 15 ml of olive oil... So u would change the HIIt for the LI and then workout?

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## eatrainrest

> No, I don't do LI I just start the workout with HIIT and then workout. The whey is not my postworkout meal, I have also two eggs with broccoli onions and a slice of brown bread and 15 ml of olive oil... So u would change the HIIt for the LI and then workout?


i would perform LI cardio in the AM, then workout later in the day with post workout LI cardio or HIIT. if you cant do 2x a day then i wuld just slam down a breakfeast, workout 1.5 hours later, followed by LI or HIIT cardio 20-30 minutes

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## elpropiotorvic

> i would perform LI cardio in the AM, then workout later in the day with post workout LI cardio or HIIT. if you cant do 2x a day then i wuld just slam down a breakfeast, workout 1.5 hours later, followed by LI or HIIT cardio 20-30 minutes


Mm.. Ok my time frame for training is from 5:35am to 7a.m ( that's pushing it ) how would u distribute ur time in for the cardio? I have to be at work at 9 but takes one hour to commute and 12 min to walk back from the gym leaving me 48 min to grab Pwo meal... Make lunch and shower...i study at nights so can't do( get of work at 6) the night workout...I don't want to sound a complainer... So if I didn't get u wrong... I should work the weights first and then cardio... Sorry if I'm making u repeat urself I'm a little slow

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## eatrainrest

> Mm.. Ok my time frame for training is from 5:35am to 7a.m ( that's pushing it ) how would u distribute ur time in for the cardio? I have to be at work at 9 but takes one hour to commute and 12 min to walk back from the gym leaving me 48 min to grab Pwo meal... Make lunch and shower...i study at nights so can't do( get of work at 6) the night workout...I don't want to sound a complainer... So if I didn't get u wrong... I should work the weights first and then cardio... Sorry if I'm making u repeat urself I'm a little slow


not at all... yes seems that you are under time constraint. I think it would be best to eat a protein/carb breakfast prior to lifting (1.5 hours or at least 1 hour to avoid fatigue, digestion issues, etc). if you CANNOT do that, then i would slam down quick carbs with protein and caffeine sometrhing like honey and whey with caffeine. (assuming that you have to workout within under a half hour or so of consuming breakfast. other than that, eat a low GI carb/protein meal prior to hitting up the weights followed by LI or HIIT cardio to strip some fat off.

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## elpropiotorvic

> not at all... yes seems that you are under time constraint. I think it would be best to eat a protein/carb breakfast prior to lifting (1.5 hours or at least 1 hour to avoid fatigue, digestion issues, etc). if you CANNOT do that, then i would slam down quick carbs with protein and caffeine sometrhing like honey and whey with caffeine. (assuming that you have to workout within under a half hour or so of consuming breakfast. other than that, eat a low GI carb/protein meal prior to hitting up the weights followed by LI or HIIT cardio to strip some fat off.


Ok i'll get the shake and hit the weights and alternate between LI and hIIT :Bowdown:  :Bowdown:

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## biggieSmalz

This thread is awesome! Great info guys!

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## j4ever41

> I've been able to reduce my bodyfat percentage from 15 down to 9 by doing the fasted-state cardio first thing in the morning. Tons of energy before and right after my run, *and I wait an hour afterwards to eat my first meal.*
> If your diet is spot on, preferably in a slightly higher carb range, and your diet is predictable in the sense that your body gets fed at the same intervals throughout the day, then this whole idea of your body instantly slipping into some dire state of catabolism b/c it's jogging for 40 minutes on an empty stomach seems a bit alarmist. 
> 
> You gotta realize that most of the scientific studies on this subject probably sampled a limited number of untrained people with possibly high-fat, high salt, or high sugar diets. Without a more longitudinal study, the conclusions of this dilemma cannot be relied upon. Therefore, I take those experiments with a grain of salt.
> 
> While catabolism may be higher in the morning upon awakening, it's not like pounds of muscle are sloughing off every 15 minutes you don't get some food. If your diet throughout the day is solid and plentiful, then I don't think this is a major or noticeable issue. 
> 
> just my 2 cents


glade to see someone else doing this.

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## Crispy_Pork

> There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.


...agreed! What works for one may not work for another. There's so much information here, but a while back I decided to see what worked for me. I've tried cardio in the evening, in the morning and HIIT. Which one had a significant affect on my physically appearance? It was in fact HIIT. See the difference between a sprinter and a marathon runner? I decided to give HIIT a try and share my experience. 
After a friend had told me I was "getting fat!" i was indeed increasing the handles around my waist with no packs visible on my stomach. I would wake up and hit the epileptical machine on an empty stomach. This initially began with a 4/5 minute light jog to warm up followed by 20 sec all out sprint (it would have been wise for me to strech after the warm up by as I was using the machine I didn't do this), hitting 80-85% maximum heart rate, (yes I was using a heart rate monitor watch) then go back to light jog around 55% maximum heart rate for 40 secs. I would repeat this for 20 minutes, then cool down for 5 minutes. Total workout was approx 30 mins. Initially, this was hard but in the end I could go at 85% for 45 secs and light jog for 90 secs. To keep the body guessing so it would not adapt to the workload and become more efficient, I would vary the sprint/jog times every 3 sessions. I first noticed the line on top of my abs after the first 8 sessions. This is what motivated me to carry on, as this was working for me. As the days/weeks went by I could litterally see my packs getting more defined (ab fats/love handles falling off). I don't work my stomach so i wouldn't say that they were hugely defined, but enough to visibly notice the lines. After around 2 half months, there was a huge significant change in my stomach fats/lurve handles, and I could see my packs! Oh, and for breakfast, I had porridge. Just my experience incase anyone is still confused or would like to try it out and see if this works for them. I didn't take any protein or carb prior to the workout. Despite the science behind it all, this is indeed a fat-busting way that worked for me!

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## NS

> Ok that being said what do you wanna eat? Some lean protein, carbs or a shake?



Mannon, I don't mean to be a prick, but your name looks awfully like the word mammon meaning greedy pursuit of wealth.. probably just a horrible coincidence but your not a future scammer I hope?

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## BigMatt

> Very interesting thread. 
> 
> First, Phate, you mentioned that your protein has about 1g of carbohydrate; and therefore, causes no change in insulin . Correct me if I'm wrong, but *protein (including whey) causes a fairly large raise in insulin - just by itself. Your pancreas isn't only responsive to carbohydrates.*
> 
> Also, in contrast to you all who feel "shitty" after a fasted cardio state, I do not. My head actually feels clearer and I'm more focused it seems. After some research, this could be attributed to increased catecholamine activity. To each his own... but that is my own experience.
> 
> Another point I would like to raise: from what I have read, your body will metabolize stored glycogen, fat, or amino acids (muscle) for energy. From these three primary energy sources, your body will take the path of least resistance and use glycogen first, fat second, and muscle third. Now I'm not saying your body is run exactly like a car and once one tank is empty *ding!* it moves on to the next. But from a general point of view, glycogen is mostly depleted (after eight hours of sleeping, glycogen in the liver is almost all metabolized), then low intensity aerobic exercise would cause the body to metabolize adipose tissue as energy. 
> 
> With supplemental BCAA's (as previously mentioned by Phate: "BCAA's are catabolized in the skeletal muscle of the body (therefore bypassing the liver). Skeletal muscle contains enzymes that break down the BCAA's & utilize there energy) that fasted state cardio could be beneficial. 
> ...


Correct

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