# STEROIDS FORUM > IGF-1 LR3, HGH, and INSULIN QUESTIONS >  RedBaron's Guide - Putting it all together HGH + LR3 + Insulin

## RedBaron

*Putting it all together - HGH + IGF-1 + Insulin – by RedBaron
A basic peptide cycle guide for the lazy man*   :Smilie: 

There are volumes of studies available regarding the use of HGH, IGF-1 (and all its variants), and Insulin, but for the most part coming up with a good cycle incorporating all of these is a tedious process and requires more of an investment in time pouring over studies and other reading than most people wish to invest. The following is put forth as a basic guide. It is meant to be a quick and simple reference as to what a cycle including all three of these components might look like and a brief description of the action of each of the components. This is in no wise intended to be a comprehensive guide, a technical document, nor is it presented as the ONLY way to run a cycle such as this. This is merely as an example of one method that will definitely yield results. Myself and several athletes and all levels of competition have used the basic cycle principles below with good success over the last few years. You will certainly want to tweak this for your particular application, but this should at least get you headed in the right direction.

*THE CYCLE*

*Weeks 1- (20-30) – HGH – On 5/ off 2*
_Weeks 1-5, 11-15, (21-25)_
• 2 – 3 IU’s - first thing in the morning on workout days – early afternoon on non-workout days
_Weeks 6-10, 16-20, (26-30)_
• 2 – 3 IU’s first thing in the morning
• 2 – 3 IU’s 1-2 p.m. or pre-workout (or IM post-workout with your insulin if preferred)
_All HGH injected subQ into a**omen, obliques, fronts of the thighs, and upper triceps_

*Weeks 1-5, 11-15, (21-25) – Long R3 IGF-1 – Every day*
80 – 100 mcg’s intramuscular
• post work out on workout days 
• first thing in the morning on non-workout days

*Weeks 6-10, 16-20, (26-30) – Humalog – Workout days only*
• 8 – 12 IU’s immediately post workout, intramuscular

*IMPORTANT / CRITICAL - Post Insulin Nutrient Routine*
_Immediately after Humalog injection – do the following in exacting fashion -_
• Injection + 5 minutes – drink shake with 10g glutamine / 10g creatine / 7 grams of dextrose per IU of Insulin. (If you don’t wish to split the shakes, add the whey isolate described as well here for a single shake).
• Injection + 15 minutes – drink shake with 65g of whey isolate protein in water (skip if taken with above)
• Injection + 75 minutes – eat a protein / carb meal with 40-50g of protein, 40-50g of carbs, NO FATS (you may wish to add another 30g or so whey isolate protein drink with this meal if you have tore down sufficient muscle groups to utilize this without it being stored as fat)
(i.e. – two boneless, skinless chicken breasts baked or grilled, a serving of brown rice, sweet potatoes, or pasta, with green beans)
_Avoid fats for 2-3 hours for Humalog IM, 3-4 hours for Humalog subQ, 4-5 hours for Humulin-R._
*keep some glucose tablets or other simple carbs on hand (Orange Juice, Full sugar Coke, etc.) for the active window of your insulin. Hypo symptoms can and will hit hard and fast and you will have little time to react. This is the main danger of insulin use. . Lack of attention to detail in this area can end in a nice ambulance ride, a visit to the hospital or even a one-way trip to the morgue. Be ready and act smart. The price of stupidity is really, really high.*

*OPTIONAL Addition to above cycle*

*Weeks 1- (20-30) T3 or T4 - Every Day*
_one of the following –_
• 12.5 mcgs - 25 mcgs T3 taken once each day
-or –
• 100 mcgs T4 taken once each day

_[alternative method if additional fat loss is necessary - Only use if sufficient AAS cycle is present to protect and support lean tissue and use only during the weeks of LR3 injections to avoid any potential negative impact to our IGF levels by increased IGF binding proteins. The 13 amino acid side chain of LR3 IGF-1 has specifically been engineered to resist being impressed by or bound to IGFBP’s, so any increase in the below ramp up/down will not kill your IGF levels. A reasonable dose AAS component of the cycle will further protect lean tissue from being used for fuel. In absence of these above-mentioned components, you won’t want to run your T3 above 50mcgs per day. It will begin to elevate IGFBP’s and will dismantle and burn through hard-earned muscle proteins quicker than you could imagine.]_

Weeks 1-5, 11-15, (21-25) T3 Every Day
For each of the 5 week runs of T3:
Days 1-3 25 mcgs
Days 4-6 50 mcgs
Days 7-9 75 mcgs
Days 10 - 20 100 mcgs
Days 21 - 24 75 mcgs
Days 25 - 27 50 mcgs
Days 28 - 30 25 mcgs
Days 31 - 35 12.5 mcgs

*DESCRIPTION OF THE ELEMENTS OF THIS CYCLE*

*HGH*
HGH should ideally be used for 20-30 week cycles (or longer). The dosage should be between 2-3IU per day if you are using GH primarily for fat loss, 4-8 IU’s a day for both fat loss and muscle growth, and approximately 1.0 – 2.0 IU’s a day for females. It is best to split your injections 1/2 first thing in the morning, 1/2 early afternoon if your dose is above 3.0 IU’s per day. Your pituitary will naturally produce an average of 6 or so pulses of GH per day, the mega pulse being 2 hours after we fall asleep. Each injection you take will create a negative feedback loop that as suggested by a couple of studies will suppress these pulses for an approximate 4 hours. By taking your injections first thing in the morning and early afternoon you will still allow your body to release its biggest pulse, which normally occurs shortly after going to sleep at night, as well as blunting the effects of cortisol, the two biggest peaks of which are occurring at these same times (early morning, early afternoon).

When starting out with your HGH cycle, for most people it is wise to begin you dose at 1.5 – 2.0IU per day for the first couple of weeks, and then begin increasing your dose by 0.5 unit every week or two until you reach your desired level. While it isn't an absolute necessity to do this, if you are sensitive to the type of sides HGH present you will often times avoid these sides of joint pain/swelling, CTS, and bloating/water retention by slowly acclimating to your ultimate 4-5 IU/day goal.

_You should use an U100 insulin syringe for injecting HGH, and inject it subQ into your a**omen, obliques, top of thighs, triceps. Rotate injection sites. HGH can have a small-localized fat loss benefit, so keep this in mind when choosing your injection sites._

*IGF-1*
When HGH makes it pass through the liver, a release of IGF-1 is a result. IGF-1 appears to be a key player in muscle growth. It stimulates both the differentiation and proliferation of myoblasts. It also stimulates amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues. While HGH will cause an increase in your IGF-1 level over the course of a few months, HGH has a cumulative effect, so our addition of IGF-1 will greatly speed up the time to results.

There are two types of IGF-1 that will typically be used by bodybuilders. One is bio-identical huIGF-1, a 70 amino acid string. The other is Long R3 IGF-1, which is an 83 amino acid analog of human IGF-I comprising the complete human IGF-I sequence with the substitution of an Arg for the Glu at position 3 (hence R3), and a 13 amino acid extension peptide at the N-terminus (hence the long). This 13 amino acid "side chain" helps prevent the IGF-1 from being so easily bound by binding proteins, and thus increases its active window exponentially. Which of these you use depends on your goal.

_HuIGF-1_ is very short lived in the body (probable half life of approximately 10 minutes). This type of IGF-1 is very useful if you are seeking local site growth. Since it is so short lived, little if any of the IGF-1 makes it to other tissues and IGF-1 receptors in other parts of the body. The way to inject this is immediately post work out into the muscle that you wish to have local site growth. Use a U100 insulin syringe, and inject 100 - 300 mcg’s (in some cases more) bilaterally into the desired muscle immediately post workout. For this type of IGF-1, I would use it workout days only.

For _Long R3 IGF-1_, it isn’t as critical that you inject into a local site as long R3 has a active window of many hours (if not days), and is designed specifically to resist being bound by IGF binding proteins. 

Since it is common to reconstitute this type of IGF-1 with Benzyl Alcohol, Acetic Acid, or Hydrochloric Acid, I would still recommend that you inject intra-muscular. While for some purposes of nerve regrowth and other medical recovery purposes subQ is a somewhat superior injection method, it can and probably will leave a nice red irritated spot for a couple of weeks if you inject subQ, and it is not superior for our purposes of muscle growth anyway. 

I still inject into a muscle just worked to take advantage of increased IGF-1 receptors present as a result of tearing down muscles with my workout, but because of the long activity window of this type of IGF-1 any muscle will work well and give you good results. I would suggest that you inject between 80 – 120 mcg’s per day everyday immediately post workout on workout days, and first thing in the morning on non-workout days.

The added bonus of using LR3 in our cycle is that fat loss will be accomplished while still eating a great number of clean calories per day. You will visibly see yourself leaning out from a couple of weeks in on while using LR3 at doses suggested here.

_Use a U-100 insulin syringe with 1/2" needle to inject IGF-1 intramuscular (bilaterally for HuIGF-1, bilaterally optional for Long R3)_

*Insulin*
Working out causes our muscles to end up in a catabolic state after a good hammering. It is important to back in a positive nitrogen balance as soon as possible. When not using insulin, we drink some dextrose with our protein to cause an insulin spike immediately post workout to help shuttle the protein and sugars to the muscles. 

Insulin is very good at shuttling nutrients to the muscles, and works in a very complimentary manner with GH in the types of things that they shuttle. Also, HGH can cause an amount of insulin resistance, so adding some insulin to your cycle will go a long ways toward reducing the elevated blood glucose levels caused by HGH's action of interfering with the liver's ability to uptake glucose, and thus help offset any potential resistance that might occur during your HGH cycle. Also by taking our HGH near the time of our insulin injection (immediately post workout) we are ensuring a great influx of growth factors after action on the liver. HGH + Slin passed through the liver = BIG secretion of growth factors. These growth factors will equate to muscle growth, rapid healing, etc.

For the purposes that we are using insulin, a dosage of 6-12IU’s is adequate and should be used immediately post workout. I personally prefer using Humalog intramuscular as it will cause a rapid spike and clear out of your system quickly. You can use it subQ or use Humulin-R instead, but each of these will result in a longer active window, thus a longer time to avoid eating any fats and watching your carb intake. Any fats or over abundance of carbs will end up being stored as fat during insulin's active window. The approximate windows are:
Humalog - IM - 2-3 hours
Sub-q - 3-4 hours
Humulin -R - IM - 3-4 hours
Sub-q 4-5 hours

_Use a U-100 insulin syringe with 1/2" needle to inject IM immediately post workout. Alternatively, you can inject subQ if desired or if you wish a longer active window for some reason. Begin with a dose of 4IU's or so, and increase the dose each workout day until you reach your desired 8-12IU's._

If for some reason you wish to avoid insulin, I would still suggest that immediately post workout you spike you own endogenous insulin by drinking 80 grams of dextrose / 40 grams of whey isolate protein. While this certainly won't do the work of 8-12 IU's of Humalog, it will most certainly assist getting your muscle back in a nitrogen positive environment in a short amount of time.


*T3 or T4*
HGH can (but certainly not universally) have a slight inhibitory effect on your thyroid. For most people this is minimal and does not require any additional thyroid be taken, but if you wish to augment protein synthesis as well as give yourself a slight metabolic boost in thyroid without shutting down your own production, you can add 12.5mcg of T3 or 50mcgs of T4 daily to your HGH, IGF-1, and Insulin cycle. This will aid both in bulking and cutting. 

If you add T3 or T4 to your cycle, you should also consider taking some thyroid support supplements such as t-100x, bladderwrack, and coleus forskolin. You should check and make sure your intake of trace minerals (selenium, zinc, copper) is sufficient to aid in the conversion of T4 to T3. 

If you are going to take more than 12.5 mcg of T3 or 50mcgs of T4, a wise method is to cycle the dose both up and down to avoid a rebound effect when going off the T3 portion of your cycle. While many profess they don’t suffer from this rebound problem, I can personally attest to MANY that do. If you don’t have a desire to find out whether you are one of the lucky ones or not, consider the ramp up/down to minimize the rebound. It is a real bummer to lose a bunch of fat only to pack it right back on because your metabolism is in the toilet for many weeks post thyroid cycling. The other consideration is that T3 is very indiscriminant in it stoking of the metabolic fire. It will happily burn both fat and lean tissue (muscle proteins are really attractive, easy marks), so I would only recommend its use at much above 25mcgs of T3 or 100mcgs of T4 per day (and definitely if used at 50mcgs of T3 or 200mcgs of T4 or above - at which point IGFBP's will rise significantly enough to be a consideration) if you are on a reasonably healthy anabolic cycle to protect your lean tissue. For strictly our use with an HGH cycle and use in assisting with protein synthesis, 12.5mcg of T3 or 50mcgs of T4 will be sufficient and will not be problematic. 

Also another consideration if cycling in higher doses, cycle your T3 in conjunction with your LR3 IGF-1 use. The thought behind this is that LR3 binds poorly to IGFBP's, so you will be able to use an elevated dose of T3 (which will likely increase IGFBP's) and still keep elevated IGF-1 levels. I would suggest that use of T3 above 25mcg's or T4 at doses above 100mcgs or so would not be advisable for too many 5 weeks segments of your complete cycle. As one of the major "anabolic" benefits of HGH use is elevated IGF-1 levels, we don't want to create an environment of radically increased IGF binding proteins. Abuse of T3 or T4 will go a long way in creating that environment hostile to IGF-1.

Well, I think that about covers the basic peptide suite …all that is needed to complete this cycle is the addition of your preferred anabolic portion of the cycle –a simple testosterone combo (cyp, e, prop, etc.) or a more complex cycle. In either event, add something along those lines and you have a great combination that can be tailored for whatever your goals may be.

I hope this guide helps get you going on the right path. Happy growing!  :Smilie: 
RedBaron
_(last updated 1/15/07)_

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## JohnnyB

As always great post, I can't wait to get my script so I can alternate LR3 and slin

JohnnyB

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## goose

Real class thread,thanks.

goose4.........

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## SPIKE

That single therad contains the answers to the last 3 posts I made. 


Quality at it's best. Thank You for the time spent RB!

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## BobShocker

Thanks for this . . . HUGE help!!!!

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## NotSmall

Fantastic stuff!

Get it stuck.

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## Booz

yet more awsome info for the gh newbie,like myself.another great post baron!!!

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## Blown_SC

Nice post young man  :Big Grin: .. should be pinned.

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## Big Bapper

Thank you

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## G-Force

good info

i'm not quite ready to dable with all 3 of these compounds but i have saved all this info for future reference

nice one RB

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## rodge

awesome post RB, this should be made a sticky.

-rodge

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## fred9

> [b] Also another consideration if cycling in higher doses, cycle your T3 in conjunction with your LR3 IGF-1 use. The thought behind this is that LR3 binds poorly to IGFBP's, so you will be able to use an elevated dose of T3 (which will likely increase IGFBP's) and still keep elevated IGF-1 levels. I would suggest that use of T3 above 25mcg's or so would not be advisable for too many 5 weeks segments of your complete cycle. As one of the major "anabolic " benefits of HGH use is elevated IGF-1 levels, we don't want to create an environment of radically increased IGF binding proteins. Abuse of T3 will go a long way in creating that environment hostile to IGF-1.
> _(last updated 6/20/05)_


nice/ interesting read..
was wondering if the use of T3 can decrease the sides of HGH (CTS, bloat, numbness), becasue of the increase in igfbp's..?(which isnt a good thing)
greetz

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## Vegas67

perfect timing! I was just gathering up data to combine the three and bam...here it is. Great post

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## CARNIVORE

> perfect timing! I was just gathering up data to combine the three and bam...here it is. Great post


dido on that. Thanks RB

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## MMA

just the kind of tremendous work that we've grown to expect from the baron. exactly what i was looking for

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## Bsg243

What can I say man awsome post but I have a question sorry I can't seem to figure it out that was alot of info to take in I just got some growth and it come in 8ius per vial how much water am i supposed to mix with it? thanks

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## GearIdentity

Thanx Redbaron, I have a question as well.

I am running hgh at 2iu, and L3Igf-1 at 80mcg. When splitting your igf-1 dosage in two when would we be the best time to take the other injection of L3Igf-1 on nonworkout days?

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## rocketman

RB, great read bro ! i was wondering how can this format be used for a cutter ? or is it primarily a gainer in conjunction w/ AAS ? can this be modifided for a PCT cycle w/ clo & nolva etc ?

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## redmuscle3

Nice info concisely presented.....

was wondering how this cycle would run concurelty with roid cycles...thats what i am thinking . Thinking of Test\primobolin\Dbol (8\8\6 weeks) within the above cycle, break and then Test\TA\Winnie 8 weeks.... break...then something else...Test\equipose\durabolin ...maybe .

I am assuming you are also doing roids concurelty within the above hgh\IGF\Slin clyce? *What works for you in terms of roids taken within the above cycle?*  

Last time i did HGH\IGF\Slin\T4 i did a Test 450\TA\Dbol cycle ....followed by Test prop\winnie and seemed to work good with it....

Slin was only done for 4 weeks on and off, but i had to give it up after two 4 week cycles of it...impacted my body too much at 10 iu per dose...gonna try just use 2-5 iu slin twice a day next time....c if i can hold out longer ....

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## heavyrotation92

red, this post is so informative it makes me shed a tear....

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## pattymac931

great post i got alot of info for my cycle im puttin togtehr!

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## bigasscuban

What if i want to add IGF at the same time as Slin and HGH. When should I take the shots?

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## hardtimes

i cannot read the rules  :Frown:

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## Seattle Junk

RB, can you please explain this part? I'm a little confused on the t3 issue with lr3. Do take more t3 or less or the same amount when you cycle in lr3?

*Also another consideration if cycling in higher doses, cycle your T3 in conjunction with your LR3 IGF-1 use. The thought behind this is that LR3 binds poorly to IGFBP's, so you will be able to use an elevated dose of T3 (which will likely increase IGFBP's) and still keep elevated IGF-1 levels. I would suggest that use of T3 above 25mcg's or so would not be advisable for too many 5 weeks segments of your complete cycle. As one of the major "anabolic " benefits of HGH use is elevated IGF-1 levels, we don't want to create an environment of radically increased IGF binding proteins. Abuse of T3 will go a long way in creating that environment hostile to IGF-1.
*

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## acook59

holey moley, lots of information for a newbie like me but then i guess you bro's that get into this more advanced stuff have been doing bodybuilding a fair few years rite?

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## Yaz Villanueva

Pardon this HGH virgin's barrage: would like a clarification on this: "• 2 – 3 IU’s right before workout (for best benefit from both HGH and insulin ) or post workout with your insulin (if before/after not feasible) -- feeling kinda stupid, don't quite understand what you mean with this last part in part - "if before/after not feasible."

Couple more things I'd like to clarify and ask: I'm just about to end the cycle I'm currently on and considering HGH in my next. I'm eyeing Somatropin 4 iu. Can I just cycle using just HGH and insulin or, as from what I've read so far, is HGH best used in conjuction with a regular cycle? 

Friend of mine is asking (actually insisting I ask) what's the best gear to take with HGH and what's the best test to take with it. 

Thanks

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## NEW_IN_THE_GAME

Good shit bro. You know your shit.

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## Yaz Villanueva

Good post Red Baron, would still like a clarification on this: "• 2 – 3 IU’s right before workout (for best benefit from both HGH and insulin ) or post workout with your insulin (if before/after not feasible) -- feeling kinda stupid, don't quite understand what you mean with this last part in part - "if before/after not feasible."

Thanks

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## GearIdentity

Would HGH injection 1.5hrs before workout work?

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## Ricky Ricardo

RE: Red Baron's Post on 11-28-2005 "RedBaron's Guide to Putting it all together HGH + LR3 + Insulin "

Thanks for the Post. I had a Q for you. Your cycle shows Lr3 and Slin in alternating cycles. 

Here is the current AS (18 weeks):
Decabol 250 2x/week - pyramid up to 375 2x/week and end at 125 2x/week
Andropen 275 2x/week - pyramid up to 550 2x/week and end at 137 2x/week
Boldenone 200 2x/week - pyramid up to 300 3x/week and end at 50 2x/week
HGH 5IU/day (2.5 Morning 2.5 post workout -- Mon - Sat)
Lr3 ?? haven't started using supply ??
Humalin R ?? haven't started using supply ??
T3 ?? haven't started using supply ??

ANCILLARY:
Arimidex 1mg/day and 10mg of Nolvadex each day or AS shot or when felt needed
Propoecia 1mg/day - Pyramid up to 5gm during heavy AS and end to 1mg/day
Lipitor ?? haven't started using supply ??
Crestor ?? haven't started using supply ??

DIET with at least 1 gallon of Smart water/day and 1 gallon of tap/other water/day:
9am: 48g Muscle Milk Protien with 5g fiber, 10g Glutamine Plus Garden of Life Vitmamins, Garden of Life Perfect Foods (for Nutrients and Probiotics), Fats (4g Muscle Links ***** Stak, 3g of Leceithin, 3g Tonalin) and Aminos (NA tyrosine 300mg, Arganine 500mg, NA Carnitine 500mg, NA Cysteine 600mg)

9:15am: HGH 2.5 IU

10am: 300 - 500 calorie with at least 50g of Carbs -- don't worry about fats

12pm: Muscle Milk Oat meal 1 serving

1pm: 500 - 700 calorie with at least 50g of Carbs -- don't worry about fats

3pm: Pre-workout Shake (preformance by Cytosport)

5pm to 6:30pm: Workout (Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday)

7pm: Post-workout Shake 54g Cytogainer + 24g of Muscle Milk Protien with 5g fiber, 10g Glutamine Plus Garden of Life Vitmamins, Garden of Life Perfect Foods (for Nutrients and Probiotics), Fats (4g Muscle Links ***** Stak, 3g of Leceithin, 3g Tonalin) and Aminos (NA tyrosine 300mg, Arganine 500mg, NA Carnitine 500mg, NA Cysteine 600mg)

7:15pm: HGH IU (same time on Wednesday -- non workout day)

8pm: High Carb meal -- usually pasta or potatoes

9pm: 300 - 500 calorie with at least 50g of Carbs -- don't worry about fats

10pm: 24g Muscle Milk with 5g Glutamine, 5g MSM and 5g Fiber

11pm: 15g of Amino Acid Pills (by Nature's Best) and sleep

------------------

I have done too much research on a cycle using all of this; so need some directions -- please advise. I want to gain about 30 to 40 pounds of lean muscle over the next 26 weeks (I am 4 weeks into my 30 week cycle). I have all the supplies of pharma-stuff. Just need some advice.

I did my 1st cycle about 15 years about with only cyp and gained 40 pounds! Then about 4 years about did a cycle with sus and dec gained 20 pounds, then over the last year did 2 cycles gained about 30, but lost about 15; lack of exercise, food and lowered testosterone (I have all the stuff from clomid to provirone and HCG to help is back, but this last time did not work well -- that is why I am using Equipose, HGH and LR3).

Also do you have any suggestion for slin and Lr3 at the same time safely?


Thanks!

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## Yaz Villanueva

> All I am saying with that statement is that while taking HGH and insulin together offer some nice benefits, taking them at the exact same time will likely rob you of some of HGH's ability to mobilize and burn fat.
> 
> HGH instructs your body to be resistant to insulin, not to uptake glucose out of the bloodstream, and in turn forces your body to utilize fat as fuel - end result some fat loss.
> 
> Insulin instructs our body to save every single bit of whatever we have ... protein, carbs, fats, etc. It is our storage hormone, and instructs the body to save everything either in the muscles to recharge glycogen stores, and to save all of the rest as bodyfat ... for the chance of famine.
> 
> Given this set of instructions, you can see that taking the two at exactly the same time could be a bit counterproductive with respect to losing some fat with your HGH.
> 
> On the other hand, having both HGH and Insulin present at roughly the same time as they act on the liver results in a huge shot of IGF-1 ... something we do want.
> ...



Yes it does. WOw! Thanks! Clear as day now. 
I have a couple more questions/clarrifications, if you don't mind: when injecting HGH, can I inject together with the gear I will be using in the cycle -- like: inject AS, get another syringe and needle, then inject the HGH? Or would it be best to space it out? 
I've looked through dozens of threads for a good, simple cycle incorporating both AS, HGH and insulin, but couldn't find one. COuld you, or anyone here, perhaps give me a sample or at least point me in the right direction? 
ALso, in your opinion, what's the best, specific, time to take HGH, like in the morning, what would be best? 6am? 7am? 8am? Does it matter? In the afternoon as well, what could be the best time to load up and work out? I live in a hot and humid country, working out in the early afternoon in the non-airconditioned gym I usually go to can be murder so I usually work out in the evening. But if it's better to work out in the afternoon, I could probably shift to maybe 4 or 5 pm when it's not as hot as say, 2 pm. 

Thanks again bro.

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## harlesschize2

> That is pretty much the case. Starting out, there is no reason to be as complex as this .... Just simple cycles will get the job done. As your body matures and reaches its peak muscle size and maturity wise, then it is time to break out some of the other options .... that is where things like HGH, IGF-1, Insulin and the like come into play. They are the arsenal of the mature bodybuilder trying to squeeze that last 10-15% out of their body.


fantastic post! i just wanted to ask you if its ok to inject 'hgh' without insulin and use isolate protein post workout instead? how effective is this going to be? thanks

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## ngreen23

thanks bro great info!!!

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## Romanov

First of all, My respects to everybody...!Im new at this!I just oppened my account 3 or 4 days ago and i just cant stop reading it. I've been learning so much from it its ridiculous. Nevertheless, i havent been able to dissipate one question i have about the igf lifespasm after being mixed. I just read a post ( i really good one, for that matter) that said that even after the mixing, the potency of the igf doesent get affected if, and only if certain measurements are taken ( special emphasis on temperature variations). can somebody help me with this?!!!

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## harlesschize2

> fantastic post! i just wanted to ask you if its ok to inject 'hgh' without insulin and use isolate protein post workout instead? how effective is this going to be? thanks


thanks bro!

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## Kale

> thanks bro!


This thread is a sticky dude, people dont normally post here. And cut the attitude as well  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## cj1capp

could you repost the old info while you update it at the same time. i should have copied it the first time. thanks

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## pimpdawgin

> could you repost the old info while you update it at the same time. i should have copied it the first time. thanks


 YEAH YEAH, I SECOND THAT NOTION.
Does anybody have a copy of the old one that they could dig up somewhere?

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## steroid-peptides

> . . . updated version coming soon . . .


Thread Unstuck. 

There's no first post anymore. If RB wishes to post something updated, and it's good enough, it will be restuck.

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## Triposinator

RB is GONE I suspect. As are many others




> If RB wishes to post something updated, and it's good enough, it will be restuck.

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## cj1capp

> RB is GONE I suspect. As are many others


i found and posted his old guide written on 6/20/05 any one have it saved that is a copy of the more current one, if so paleae pm me or better yet just post it for all.

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## Triposinator

This is *classic* 





> it's good enough, it will be restuck.

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## InsaneInTheMembrane

bump

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## Doc.Sust

bump

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## Property of Steroid.com

His original guide has been moved to the Edu forum.

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## voz

super

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## alireza1980

hi everybody i wanna start my first gh cycle and use winny with it but some say use sustanone with it. i was wondering if you could help me with a cycle how to take them and what to use everything i need to know. another thing i been told to take it for 3 month only but RB you said 
20 - 30 weeks. im confused pls help.thx

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## Gear

> hi everybody i wanna start my first gh cycle and use winny with it but some say use sustanone with it. i was wondering if you could help me with a cycle how to take them and what to use everything i need to know. another thing i been told to take it for 3 month only but RB you said 
> 20 - 30 weeks. im confused pls help.thx


3 months in most cases is not long enough, so as RB said, 20 - 30 weeks would be a much better option.

What AAS you use depends on what you want to achieve, and for more information about that visit out AAS forum.

If you have any further questions please start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Thank you.

-Gear

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## Elvishk

it is a good post for insulin beginner!

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