# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > DIET AND NUTRITION >  Calorie deficit while on cycle?

## johnfi

How much can you reduce calories below maitnance while on a cutting cycle to preserve as much muscle as possible?

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## gbrice75

I wouldn't do it at all. I'd eat at maintenance and rely on cardio to create the deficit.

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## D7M

> I wouldn't do it at all. I'd eat at maintenance and rely on cardio to create the deficit.


^Bingo!

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## Twist

> How much can you reduce calories below maitnance while on a cutting cycle to preserve as much muscle as possible?


depends on stats and goals

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## tembe

Depends on cycle as well

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## johnfi

Stats are 
180pounds
5 "9"
10% bf

cycle is

1-8 test prop at 75 mg eod
1-6 tren ace at 75mg eod
4-8 winny at 50 mg ed

I started the cycle 10 days ago ,but have been on a cyclic ketogenic diet for 4 weeks with a 500 cal deficit. The first two weeks of the diet where great but know i am not so sure the third week my wieght maintainedand the same,and the fourth week ( 1st on cycle) actually gained like a pound or 2. Wich leads me to my next question.

is it possible to put on muscle while on cycle while having a 500 to 600 cal deficit?

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## tembe

> Stats are 
> 180pounds
> 5 "9"
> 10% bf
> 
> cycle is
> 
> 1-8 test prop at 75 mg eod
> 1-6 tren ace at 75mg eod
> ...


i would say no

however tren does have amazing nutrition partioning effects. however i will let a more experienced person answer that

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## Twist

your body can adapt to anything really, especially with tren . I don't think that 500 is too bad... until I saw your bf%... Why are you on a ckd diet at 10% bf on tren?! you could be gaining due to water etc but seriously why are you on ckd on cycle at a low bf?

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## johnfi

> your body can adapt to anything really, especially with tren. I don't think that 500 is too bad... until I saw your bf%... Why are you on a ckd diet at 10% bf on tren?! you could be gaining due to water etc but seriously why are you on ckd on cycle at a low bf?


 Saw some where in the forum that ckd could be very good to achive single digits so i decided t try it plus i was around 12% when i satrted and wasnt on cycle. But seriously considering swithching it up after my sunday carbup , what diet would you advice?

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## johnfi

Was thinking somthing like the "how to cut" sticky in the diet section by Rambo. at about 2000calories a day what do you think?

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## Twist

At 10%bf on tren I would normally recommend going to a 2500 calorie diet at least. 40/40/20 split. Cutting down to a low bf is pointless, you will gain fat as soon as your hormones drop off (pct). Instead stay at a bf around 10% and get bigger muscles. Then you will look great and keeping fat off will be easy. No carbs during pct is muscle suicide to me. That's how I see it at least.

You will have to go from a no carb and slightly increase your carbs. I have yet to get down the best way to do that but probably increase carbs and decrease fat until carbs is 15% of your diet then switch carbs and fat completely so that fat is 10-15% and carbs are 40-45%. Further the days you are making this transition you need to run a calorie deficit of 2-400 at least. If you just all of a sudden introduce carbs and start eating heavy I imagine it would backfire. Hopefully someone else like fireguy can chime in cuz I don't have any practice with ckd.

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## FireGuy

> At 10%bf on tren I would normally recommend going to a 2500 calorie diet at least. 40/40/20 split. Cutting down to a low bf is pointless, you will gain fat as soon as your hormones drop off (pct). Instead stay at a bf around 10% and get bigger muscles. Then you will look great and keeping fat off will be easy. No carbs during pct is muscle suicide to me. That's how I see it at least.
> 
> You will have to go from a no carb and slightly increase your carbs. I have yet to get down the best way to do that but probably increase carbs and decrease fat until carbs is 15% of your diet then switch carbs and fat completely so that fat is 10-15% and carbs are 40-45%. Further the days you are making this transition you need to run a calorie deficit of 2-400 at least. If you just all of a sudden introduce carbs and start eating heavy I imagine it would backfire. *Hopefully someone else like fireguy can chime in cuz I don't have any practice with ckd*.


Neither do I, my advice is to start eating carbs again.

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## johnfi

> At 10%bf on tren I would normally recommend going to a 2500 calorie diet at least. 40/40/20 split. Cutting down to a low bf is pointless, you will gain fat as soon as your hormones drop off (pct). Instead stay at a bf around 10% and get bigger muscles. Then you will look great and keeping fat off will be easy. No carbs during pct is muscle suicide to me. That's how I see it at least.
> 
> You will have to go from a no carb and slightly increase your carbs. I have yet to get down the best way to do that but probably increase carbs and decrease fat until carbs is 15% of your diet then switch carbs and fat completely so that fat is 10-15% and carbs are 40-45%. Further the days you are making this transition you need to run a calorie deficit of 2-400 at least. If you just all of a sudden introduce carbs and start eating heavy I imagine it would backfire. Hopefully someone else like fireguy can chime in cuz I don't have any practice with ckd.


Do you think i should make this transition after my carb load or just ignore the carb up and go for it?

Also i say am 10% becouse my tanita scale tells me am 9%, my cliper say am 10%, and two different tests at 2 differrent gyms say am 10% and 11%. But rally i think am more like 12%. or this diet has me holding water becouse i still can t see my bottom abs and my upper are a 60%. Anyways regardeless of what my body fat is the best judge is the mirror and that tells me i still need to drop a good 2 to 3 percent of fat to look how i like. In general i dont react to good to carbs thats why i was thinking more like 55-25-20 diet but am willing to give the 40- 40 -20 a chance but taking into account that i am in a cutting cycle and would ike to drop like I said at least 2 % more in fat.

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## Twist

> Neither do I


Well Johnfi you're ****ed! haha Jk bro.




> Do you think i should make this transition after my carb load or just ignore the carb up and go for it?
> *Ignore carbload and ease back into carbs. You could just switch and go back to the regular 40/40/20 ish type diet. Either one I have no idea which one would be better. where's Phate when you need him?*
> Also i say am 10% becouse my tanita scale tells me am 9%, my cliper say am 10%, and two different tests at 2 differrent gyms say am 10% and 11%. But rally i think am more like 12%. or this diet has me holding water becouse i still can t see my bottom abs and my upper are a 60%. Anyways regardeless of what my body fat is the best judge is the mirror and that tells me i still need to drop a good 2 to 3 percent of fat to look how i like. In general i dont react to good to carbs thats why i was thinking more like 55-25-20 diet but am willing to give the 40- 40 -20 a chance but taking into account that i am in a cutting cycle and would ike to drop like I said at least 2 % more in fat.


I am 9ish in my picture if that helps. If you are nowhere near that then we need to know. Post a pic for best advice. 

Nobody reacts well to carbs and I will explain to you why: Because 90% of people are not eating the right ones. Simple as that. I have never heard anybody who says they got fat off quinoa and grilled chicken breast. Never. It's more like: I eat chicken from McDonalds, and drink grape juice for my source of fruit. You are probably not this bad at all, but I bet you didn't eat the right ones either.

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## johnfi

yea by looking at your picture i would say am probably at about 2.5 % higher than you . Are you flexing in that picture?

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## Twist

abs are flexed. Not much different without, just dont have the bottom V. So decide what you want to do then let me know.

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## johnfi

Here are the pics

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## johnfi

take in to account i havent eaten carbs since sunday and look soft as fkk. I think I look more like a 11 or 12% but out of 5 different fat test 1 puts me at 11% one at 9% and 3 at 10%. You asked waht i wanted to do and the answer to that is primarly cut bf down to where my abs are showing with out flexing second maybe if possible put on a little muscle.

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## gbrice75

Crappy pics but you look pretty lean bro, I think you're very close to 10% - definitely not under though.

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## johnfi

> Crappy pics but you look pretty lean bro, I think you're very close to 10% - definitely not under though.


Did what I could with my cell pone and mirror just wanted to give you guys an idea.! Gbrice I know you have little more experience with the ckd, what your take on coming of it ? was thinking carb loading sunday and the going into a different cutting diet on monday ( still havent decided what break down)
.

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## gbrice75

You'd have to decide what kind of diet you want to run before I can really answer that. Chances are you will run a more standard diet (40/40/20 or something similar) - in that case I wouldn't do the carb load on Sunday. Instead, gradually reintroduce carbs back into the diet. Maybe 50g on day 1 and 2, 100g on days 3 and 4, and so on until you're back up to whatever your daily carb macro needs to be. You'll be priming your body for a carb diet by doing this.

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## johnfi

I was thinking more of a lower carb diet but since you guys seem to be leannig more towrds a 40 40 20 how about somthing in the middle to start out and the adjust from there? somthing like a 50-30- 20 for my body weight that woul d give me about 160 grams of carb a day about 60 pw and 40 for breakfast and 60 split up throught the day depending on activity level. After 2 weeks depending on my results either bump the carbs 10 % or lower them 5%. Also wanted to mention I am from miami and have about 4 week to the columbus day regata and want to be in optimum shape for then, thats why i rather start low and adjust to high carbs instead of the other way around.( no room to experiment rather be lean than big for that given that i willbe shirtless for two days)

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## gbrice75

That's fine, although 50% of your kcal coming from protein might be overkill. How many calories do you plan to eat in a day?

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## Twist

> That's fine, although 50% of your kcal coming from protein might be overkill. How many calories do you plan to eat in a day?


I agree.

Everybody has a different body and metabolism. You might respond well to whatever diet you have proposed. That being said you should realize that the body stores dietary fat as bodyfat very easily. Eating more carbs helps the body store DIETARY fat as bodyfat more easily. This is why I say it is a bad idea to eat a diet with plenty of fat, and plenty of protein and carbs also. I think if you are not doing a high fat, low carb or keto, then fat should be low. When dietary fat is lower than 10% of daily macronutrient intake carbs and protein can be broken down and stored as fat, so don't go below 10%. To be safe I say stay between 10-15% fat.
You are on cycle so I would recommend to get plenty of protein. 1.5 grams per pound, maybe 2. Make sure the protein you get comes from animals and do not factor in other source such as protein shakes and protein that comes from sources such as beans, milk, rice etc.

The reasons above being laid out, you have protein from animals at about 2g per lb of Lean Body Mass, and fat at 10-15%. So now all you have to do is put carbs in.

You decide on the split and make a diet and it will be critiqued and because you are on tren most everything seems to work anyway. If you want to lose bf then do cardio frequently

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## johnfi

> That's fine, although 50% of your kcal coming from protein might be overkill. How many calories do you plan to eat in a day?


ok here is my story i weight 180 so my maitnace should be 180* 15= 2700 cal so for a deficit i did 180 * 12= 2160 cal. While i was on the ckd i satared with 2200 cal and for the first 2 weeks it wokrked but for the 3rd after having done a pretty decent carb up I actualy gained a pound. Foor the fourth week i downed my calories to 2100 cal and started my cycle and by the end of the week had gained about two more pound ( i think is water judging by my looks). So for this week we are currently on know i am eating 2000 cal. So in con clusion I was planning on satrating my next diet at 2000 cals. Again please feel free to input.

50% of my cals from protein if am taking 2000 cal would be 250 grams, about 40 grams a meal for 6 meals

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## Twist

> ok here is my story i weight 180 so my maitnace should be 180* 15= 2700 cal so for a deficit i did 180 * 12= 2160 cal. While i was on the ckd i satared with 2200 cal and for the first 2 weeks it wokrked but for the 3rd after having done a pretty decent carb up I actualy gained a pound. Foor the fourth week i downed my calories to 2100 cal and started my cycle and by the end of the week had gained about two more pound ( i think is water judging by my looks). So for this week we are currently on know i am eating 2000 cal. So in con clusion I was planning on satrating my next diet at 2000 cals. Again please feel free to input.
> 
> 50% of my cals from protein if am taking 2000 cal would be 250 grams, about 40 grams a meal for 6 meals


If you are at 2k now then start there with the next diet. 250 seems high to me but you are on tren so why not.

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## johnfi

> I agree.
> 
> Everybody has a different body and metabolism. You might respond well to whatever diet you have proposed. That being said you should realize that the body stores dietary fat as bodyfat very easily. Eating more carbs helps the body store DIETARY fat as bodyfat more easily. This is why I say it is a bad idea to eat a diet with plenty of fat, and plenty of protein and carbs also. I think if you are not doing a high fat, low carb or keto, then fat should be low. When dietary fat is lower than 10% of daily macronutrient intake carbs and protein can be broken down and stored as fat, so don't go below 10%. To be safe I say stay between 10-15% fat.
> You are on cycle so I would recommend to get plenty of protein. 1.5 grams per pound, maybe 2. Make sure the protein you get comes from animals and do not factor in other source such as protein shakes and protein that comes from sources such as beans, milk, rice etc.
> 
> The reasons above being laid out, you have protein from animals at about 2g per lb of Lean Body Mass, and fat at 10-15%. So now all you have to do is put carbs in.
> 
> You decide on the split and make a diet and it will be critiqued and because you are on tren most everything seems to work anyway. If you want to lose bf then do cardio frequently


so you advice lowering the fat even more?

Is the amount of protein per pound o lean mass? becouse if it is and i do 2 gr per pound of lean mass that would put my protein way higher and you said 243 gr was already high

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## Twist

1-2 grams of protein per pound of lean mass. You can choose I will not nit pick it that much. But I believe fat should be around 15% when running a moderate carb diet.

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## johnfi

thanks for teh help bro..

Never gave me your opinion on th bf% from the pics.

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## johnfi

> Stats are 
> 180pounds
> 5 "9"
> 10% bf
> 
> cycle is
> 
> 1-8 test prop at 75 mg eod
> 1-6 tren ace at 75mg eod
> ...


whats you guys opinion on adding clen to this cycle? currently starting week 3

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## gbrice75

> whats you guys opinion on adding clen to this cycle? currently starting week 3


Not necessary IMO. Consider running clen with PCT.

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## johnfi

that was my original intention.. what dose would you advise for pct? Also whats your take on hcg . I usually run it post cycle but recently read a thread here run it while on cycle?

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## gbrice75

> that was my original intention.. what dose would you advise for pct? Also whats your take on hcg. I usually run it post cycle but recently read a thread here run it while on cycle?


I would run a standard clen cycle - start at 20mcg and taper up to your comfort zone, somewhere between 100mcg and 160mcg most likely. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off unless your run ketotifen with it.

As for hcg , I don't have personal experience with it so I can't advise to that extent, but from reading I usually see people introduce it towards the end of their cycle, before PCT. Somebody with more knowledge on the topic should chime in.

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## Twist

I know very little about steroids in comparison to others on this board so I will leave it alone, I know nothing about peptides, cutting agents, and pct, so I will leave that alone too. 

As for your bf% I would say 12-13 but it doesn't really matter. BF doesn't mean as much as you think when you are going for a certain look. For example if you lost fat until you were 6% you would look skinny as hell. I would advise you to reintroduce carbs, keep that cycle going and do cardio while eating at maintenance calories. Use hcg , can't advise you how to use it though, and during pct lift very light and keep up your cardio.

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## johnfi

> I would run a standard clen cycle - start at 20mcg and taper up to your comfort zone, somewhere between 100mcg and 160mcg most likely. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off unless your run ketotifen with it.
> 
> As for hcg, I don't have personal experience with it so I can't advise to that extent, but from reading I usually see people introduce it towards the end of their cycle, before PCT. Somebody with more knowledge on the topic should chime in.


what is the correct way to take keto what dosage and what time of the day?

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## gbrice75

> what is the correct way to take keto what dosage and what time of the day?


Start w/ 1mg taken before bed (it will make you drowsy as hell, knocked me out last night) ED. Start on the 14th day of the clen cycle unless you stop feeling the effects of the clen sooner.

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## johnfi

thanks bro also do you know the difference between clen an albuterol? I have done my reserch and know that the main difference is the half life but at the same time i have read some people saying that is not as effective as clen.

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## gbrice75

> thanks bro also do you know the difference between clen an albuterol? I have done my reserch and know that the main difference is the half life but at the same time i have read some people saying that is not as effective as clen.


I've done some research on this as well, and from what I can tell, Albuterol is simply a better version of Clen (better for it's TRUE purpose as a bronchodilator, not for fat loss). Some people say it has less sides, i.e. the tremors and what not.

I decided to stick with the tried and true, Clen. Either way though, I think you'd be fine. They're essentially the same. You might get some better info on this posting it in the AAS section, or possibly even the supps section.

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