# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Clomid Instead of TRT ??!!

## double chicken

I saw Eurologist today. Because I am still young and want to have additional children he didnt want me to start TRT. He gave me a script for Clomid 25mg ED. I am supposed to get BW again in 3 months. I am fine taking baby steps especially if the Clomid works.
Has anyone else tried this approach to their low t?
If so how did work for you?

Any other thoughts?

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## 38jumper38

what's your age?

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## double chicken

> what's your age?


33, I will turn 34 in September.

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## 38jumper38

You need to find another doctor, there is nothing wrong at your age to have testosterone shots and some HCG to keep yours testiculos healthy and function, you can have that, and by the time you decide to have kids, come out of testosterone for while and have some hcg, you will have kids, and my have you wife pregnant during trt with no problem.

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## double chicken

> You need to find another doctor, there is nothing wrong at your age to have testosterone shots and some HCG to keep yours testiculos healthy and function, you can have that, and by the time you decide to have kids, come out of testosterone for while and have some hcg, you will have kids, and my have you wife pregnant during trt with no problem.


so you dont think the Clomid will do the trick?

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## 38jumper38

> so you dont think the Clomid will do the trick?


you can give a try, but test will be much better, what's your test levels?

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## double chicken

total test 344 (249-836) this was the highest reading i have had in 3 years.
Free test 6.9 (8.7-25.1)

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## lifter65

double chicken... listen to your doc and do what he says, you've found a gem
dont hop on the shots yet, try other ways first before you shoot up with test
and you will never know how good something will work till you try it

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## funkymonk

Clomid may very well prevent you from having to be on TRT for life if its successful in restarting your HPTA.

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## GotNoBlueMilk

The issue is what was your LH and FSH. If they were low, Clomid will stimulate the pituitary, raise LH, and get the T levels to rise. So it's worth a shot. See where it goes. If it works and you don't have nasty sides you could be better off on this route. 

HRT is for life, and much harder to control.

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## terraj

Clomid is a good call, your endo is smarter then most.

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## Fit N Fun

Clomid + Tamoxifen is the standard PCT ( post cycle therapy ) to bring your testosterone levels back to normal after a cycle, I will not quote the dosage since they are copied over this board hundreds of times.

Do yourself a favour and read some threads in the PCT section of this forum.

Keep your eye open for any threads started by or being commented on by Swifto, he is the PCT guru on this forum.

You may want to consider a PCT, its the most likely thing that most of us know about that will return your testosterone levels to normal.

You have not said why your test levels are low, you might get a more complete answer to your question if you tell us about your use of steriods and your understanding of the problem

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## double chicken

> the issue is what was your lh and fsh. If they were low, clomid will stimulate the pituitary, raise lh, and get the t levels to rise. So it's worth a shot. See where it goes. If it works and you don't have nasty sides you could be better off on this route. 
> 
> Hrt is for life, and much harder to control.


lh 2.9 (1.7-8.6)
fsh 6.1 (1.5-12.4)

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## GotNoBlueMilk

LH is an issue. So was mine. Clomid or hCG would probably worked for me. Go with the clomid and see how you feel. Good luck and please follow up with another post after your followup bloodwork. I am curious to see how well it works.

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## double chicken

> LH is an issue. So was mine. Clomid or hCG would probably worked for me. Go with the clomid and see how you feel. Good luck and please follow up with another post after your followup bloodwork. I am curious to see how well it works.


yeah, I will keep you posted. My next BW isnt scheduled until October 12th (3 months) I will also keep you posted to how I am feeling after 6 weeks.

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## double chicken

A study I found that made me feel better about my clomid treatment:


Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone /estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E., J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy . This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia , nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. 

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. 

CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

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## bass

> The issue is what was your LH and FSH. If they were low, Clomid will stimulate the pituitary, raise LH, and get the T levels to rise. So it's worth a shot. See where it goes. If it works and you don't have nasty sides you could be better off on this route. 
> 
> HRT is for life, and much harder to control.


i agree, TRT is the last option! see what happens with what your doc is recommending and go from there!

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## double chicken

after 4 weeks of clomid I put on 5 lbs, probably water weight though I look healthier.
Tomorrow will be 7 weeks and I am now up 7 lbs. 

I am feeling a little bit better in life. Once again I am looking forward to working out and working out harder although this could be due to the excitement of my increased weight. Still dont feel 100%.

Over last 4 days i have felt increased sensitivity in my nipples so I am going to go see the doctor this week and get my Estodiol checked and then see if he can get me a script for an AI.

Any thoughts?

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## GotNoBlueMilk

do you have baseline body fat % values? Just curious if the 7 lbs is fat or muscle too. How is the belt and pants fitting?

Tender nipples would be an E2 alarm.

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## double chicken

> do you have baseline body fat % values? Just curious if the 7 lbs is fat or muscle too. How is the belt and pants fitting?
> 
> Tender nipples would be an E2 alarm.


I dont have a baseline for body fat %, but the belt and pants have not changed in size. There is no question that my upper body, chest, shoulders, back etc have thickened up BUT it could just be water weight from Clomid. 

E2 is Estrodial correct? I wanna make sure I am getting correct items checked when i get bloodwork taken.

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## bass

yes E2=Estrodial.

belt being same size but weigh more is a good sign!

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## GotNoBlueMilk

Yes, this is a big plus. 7 lbs of water is a lot of water! 

If you get E2 checked, make sure it is the ultasensative estrodial test. W/O the "ultasensative" it is only good if your E2 is above 50 (female values).

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## Swifto

Start the Clomid right away, I'd do 50mg/ED for 1-2 weeks, then down to 25mg/ED for 3months and get BW done as directed by your doc.

There are many many studies done on hypogondal males using Clomid and it working, preventing them going on HRT. 

As said above, HRT is a final option.

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## double chicken

> Yes, this is a big plus. 7 lbs of water is a lot of water! 
> 
> If you get E2 checked, make sure it is the ultasensative estrodial test. W/O the "ultasensative" it is only good if your E2 is above 50 (female values).


Thanks, that was the kind of information I was looking for!

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## double chicken

> Start the Clomid right away, I'd do 50mg/ED for 1-2 weeks, then down to 25mg/ED for 3months and get BW done as directed by your doc.
> 
> There are many many studies done on hypogondal males using Clomid and it working, preventing them going on HRT. 
> 
> As said above, HRT is a final option.


Swifto -
I have been on clomid 25mg/ED for the last 7 weeks.
In the last 5 days I am starting to feel a little sensitivity in my nipples.

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## double chicken

> total test 344 (249-836) this was the highest reading i have had in 3 years.
> Free test 6.9 (8.7-25.1)


I had a regular checkup with my general practitioner and had been on clomid for 5 weeks. So I went ahead and had bloodwork done and here are the new results after 5 weeks of clomid:

Total Test 520.44 (350-890)
Free Test 100.8 (47-244)

The ranges changed for whatever reason. But the Test has improved a little bit.

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## double chicken

I wrote my doc a level asking him to up my dosage to 50 mg a week. He agreed and i started that dosage last Thursday!
Hopefully this does the trick.

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## Fred40

For the people this does work for....do they usually end up on TRT in the long run?

I wonder if this would be a better option for me but at the same time I'm 10 years older (44). My numbers were similar (slightly higher even).

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## Fit N Fun

Really am struggling with why you would not use the standard PCT recommended and used by most members on this forum.

Get your testicles back up to size with HCG , then :-

Week 1-6 Tamoxifen 20mg/ED (40mg/ED week 1)
Week 1-6 Clomid 25mg/ED (50mg/ED week 1) 
Tribulus (Sopharma) 1g/ED
Ashwagandha RE 2g/ED

Not saying your doc is not on the right track, but he is under dosing you.

Clomid has bad sides for me, it completely destroys my Libido, but this recovers quickly a couple of weeks after PCT is finished.

You could also throw in some Low dose Naltrexone, which kept my HPTA functioning throughout my last cycle and would do you no harm, although this is not something that is done by anyone else I know.

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## Fred40

> Really am struggling with why you would not use the standard PCT recommended and used by most members on this forum.


Because he's not doing this for PCT he's doing this for long term (forever) Testosterone boost vs. actually doing a standard TRT protocol. For some men Clomid alone appears to work very well......for others it does almost nothing. Everyone is different but it would seem that Clomid might be a better approach IF it works for you.

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## Fit N Fun

Still cannot see why a PCT should not be done to get the best out of your system.

If it were me, I would think Clomid was not working since my Libido goes through the floor, its not till I come off that I get my system back to normal.

Clomid is great for making my balls swell though, they look like Victoria plumbs after a couple of weeks when combined with Tamoxifen

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## Fred40

But what levels were you taking? 

Too much = crappy libido with Clomid

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## Fit N Fun

I take the standard PCT levels of Tamoxifine and Clomid that I posted above

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## double chicken

> For the people this does work for....do they usually end up on TRT in the long run?
> 
> I wonder if this would be a better option for me but at the same time I'm 10 years older (44). My numbers were similar (slightly higher even).


You should give it a try. If it works it will keep you from having to do TRT. I have done as much reading as I can on Clomid used for this purpose and I have not come across any information that states one way or another on the 'long wrong TRT'? 
I have put on 9 lbs and am seeing the effects in my workouts. I am super psyched.

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## double chicken

> I take the standard PCT levels of Tamoxifine and Clomid that I posted above


I have done two PCTs in the past and a few months after PCT my test levels drop down to 300s again. I am giving the Clomid a try and so far so good. My balls look like victoria plumbs too! Also my labido is doing great. I get random wood which is awesome!

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## im83931

Sounds like the clomid is a good plan for you, I would stick with the doc and see how it works.

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## double chicken

I have now been on 50mg clomid for two weeks. 
Unfortunately my libido has decreased and I am starting to break out on my face, shoulders and back.
Not happy about these situations.

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## VMAAG

> double chicken... listen to your doc and do what he says, you've found a gem
> dont hop on the shots yet, try other ways first before you shoot up with test
> and you will never know how good something will work till you try it


I'm in agreement with the above psot ESPECIALLY since you want more kids. Onyl thing you might change is get retested in 2 months instead of 3 months.

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## GotNoBlueMilk

> I have now been on 50mg clomid for two weeks. 
> Unfortunately my libido has decreased and I am starting to break out on my face, shoulders and back.
> Not happy about these situations.


Breakouts are indicitive of higher Test levels; low libido could be from increased E2 or directly from clomid. Can't help on which one.

I have reviewed some studies on Clomid treatment for low Test. Turns out it is more affective for younger males than older males. In fact, it has a good success rate for younger males. Us old farts, not so good. I also uncovered that taking the dose too high is counter productive. So don't go off script thinking 250 mg is better than 25., and 500 is better than 50. It isn't!

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## double chicken

> Breakouts are indicitive of higher Test levels; low libido could be from increased E2 or directly from clomid. Can't help on which one.
> 
> I have reviewed some studies on Clomid treatment for low Test. Turns out it is more affective for younger males than older males. In fact, it has a good success rate for younger males. Us old farts, not so good. I also uncovered that taking the dose too high is counter productive. So don't go off script thinking 250 mg is better than 25., and 500 is better than 50. It isn't!


I appreciate the feedback and will stick to the 50 mg. I will report back with my next bloodwork!

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## Fit N Fun

Took my last 25mg Clomid + 20mg Tamoxifen 25 days ago and feel my libido has been pretty good again for the last week, takes me forever to get over Clomid.

I took Clomid + Tamoxifen for 5 weeks in Total with my nuts the size of plumbs for the last three weeks.

You might want to stop the Clomid once your nuts have been completely swollen for a few weeks.

For me it has been around three weeks after Clomid to get my sex drive back.

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## jimmy79

Remember that Clomid inhibits estrogen receptors in your hypothalamus.
Visual blurring is a side effect.
It can also make you emotionally sensitive & tearful in the long term because your brain is basicaly not picking up any estrogen. (Thats why it then increases testosterone )

If I were you I'd rather go for the Testosterone shots and when you want kids just swap to the Clomid for a while :-)

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## GotNoBlueMilk

> Remember that Clomid inhibits estrogen receptors in your hypothalamus.
> Visual blurring is a side effect.
> It can also make you emotionally sensitive & tearful in the long term because your brain is basicaly not picking up any estrogen. (Thats why it then increases testosterone )
> 
> If I were you I'd rather go for the Testosterone shots and when you want kids just swap to the Clomid for a while :-)


His Clomid therapy is temporary and not permanent. It is a healing process, not a hormonal replacement process. If you research this you will learn more.

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## double chicken

> His Clomid therapy is temporary and not permanent. It is a healing process, not a hormonal replacement process. If you research this you will learn more.


no, if clomid works it will be permanent.

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## GotNoBlueMilk

So the doc plans on keeping you on Clomid for life?

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## double chicken

Ok, so i was on 25 mg for 6 weeks and then upped it to 50 mg for the last 9 weeks.
I have bloodwork scheduled in a couple of weeks but I only feel about 20% better.
So I think I am going to push for Testosterone but want to walk in armed with Crisler's TRT protocal. 
I have been to his site a couple of times and can't seem to find exaclty what his protocal is?
Any help in this would be appreciated.

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## bass

> Ok, so i was on 25 mg for 6 weeks and then upped it to 50 mg for the last 9 weeks.
> I have bloodwork scheduled in a couple of weeks but I only feel about 20% better.
> So I think I am going to push for Testosterone but want to walk in armed with Crisler's TRT protocal. 
> I have been to his site a couple of times and can't seem to find exaclty what his protocal is?
> Any help in this would be appreciated.


Standard TRT protocol for men is,
100-200 mgs test ew, or split dose twice a week.
AI, 1 mgs per 100 mgs test.
HCG , 250 IU eod or 500 IU twice a week, but this is tailored to the individual.

Ask your doctor about AI and hCG , AI is to prevent test from converting to E2.
hCG is to keep your balls from shrinking.

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## kelkel

Protocols are there in Crislers papers. You've got bloodwork coming up in a couple weeks so print out his initial BW protocol and ask your doc to do it. It will give you a good baseline. Follow-up is in there too. You treatment has to be tailored to you as we are all different and our bodies metabolize exogenous substances differently. One mans meat is another mans poison, so to speak. Also make sure you read the stickies on this forum. Great info there!.

Good luck, keep us posted.

^^Bass is on target...

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## GotNoBlueMilk

double chicken: Clomid makes most people feel like crap. Especially at the 50mg+ level. Any SERM makes my libido tank; which I find interestesting because extremely low E2 does not do that to me. 

Anyway, I always thought your clomid treatment was temporary just to restart your own Test production. Like doing PCT. I can't imagine being on a SERM for life. So if you can't get off clomid and have your hormone levels up where they need to be, then HRT is the way to go in my mind. 

Good luck with your doc.

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## double chicken

> double chicken: Clomid makes most people feel like crap. Especially at the 50mg+ level. Any SERM makes my libido tank; which I find interestesting because extremely low E2 does not do that to me. 
> 
> Anyway, I always thought your clomid treatment was temporary just to restart your own Test production. Like doing PCT. I can't imagine being on a SERM for life. So if you can't get off clomid and have your hormone levels up where they need to be, then HRT is the way to go in my mind. 
> 
> Good luck with your doc.


Yes, since I have been on 50 mg i have felt worse and my labido dissappeared. I need to start TRT.

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## double chicken

> Protocols are there in Crislers papers. You've got bloodwork coming up in a couple weeks so print out his initial BW protocol and ask your doc to do it. It will give you a good baseline. Follow-up is in there too. You treatment has to be tailored to you as we are all different and our bodies metabolize exogenous substances differently. One mans meat is another mans poison, so to speak. Also make sure you read the stickies on this forum. Great info there!.
> 
> Good luck, keep us posted.
> 
> ^^Bass is on target...


Thats just it. I cant find his protocol, I have done a bunch of google searches to no avail.

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## Fred40

> Thats just it. I cant find his protocol, I have done a bunch of google searches to no avail.



http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html

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## Fred40

I've been taking 25mg of clomid 3x/week along with my 100mg of test cyp. and .75mg of Arimidex .

I'm doing this because I'm not on HCG and I didn't want my balls to vanish. (I could care less about actual fertility....had a vasectomy years ago).

Seems to be working just fine. No sides at all at this level.

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## vinceproduction

I was on TRT for a year 300mg eow from my primary care doc. He got worried because my liver enzymes were up, cholesterol was up, and he wanted to take me off completely. So I asked about HCG , he referred me to an Endo. That endo put me on Clomid 50mg ed, and I have a follow up Nov 22. My Labs pre Clomid were (pre-clomid, 14 days since 200mg test cyp) FSH .1, LH < .1, Prolactin 12.4, Total Testosterone 234, Free 53, SHBG 14. So far feeling the no libido which sucks, but other than that, feeling decent... not as good as with Test, but I do want more kids.

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## Lemonada8

> Yes, since I have been on 50 mg i have felt worse and my labido dissappeared. I need to start TRT.


No you need to back down to 25mg. You never said any of those issues untill after u were on 50mg. 25mg is standard for a extended time period, there is no need to go up to 50mg. You aren't coming off a cycle so no need to try and jump start it. 
Don't use hcg either it will have to much LH stimulation and with higher doses it lowers response to LHRH. Also you are 33 and have a healthy FSH level so clomid was a very smart option from your doc, seems he knows what he is doing.

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## double chicken

Just received blood work:

Testosterone Serum 525 ng/dl (348-1197)
Free Testosterone 8.5 pg/ml (8.7-25.1)
LH 10.4 mIU/L (1.7-8.6)
FSH 12.4 mIU/L (1.5-12.4)

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## bass

well the only thing i see is your free T way too low! so what now?

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## double chicken

> well the only thing i see is your free T way too low! so what now?


Yeah, my testosterone Serum all though in range is very low as well. 
Not sure what happens now.

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## l2elapse

sorry havent read most but Clomid as a source for TRT is not as good as it seems. My doctor like you started with clomid first and yes it increases testosterone but he just attended a seminar in Harvard and the conclusion is you will get a raise in Test but not fully experience the effects of a true rise in testosterone

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## Lemonada8

> sorry havent read most but Clomid as a source for TRT is not as good as it seems. My doctor like you started with clomid first and yes it increases testosterone but he just attended a seminar in Harvard and the conclusion is you will get a raise in Test but not fully experience the effects of a true rise in testosterone


It will raise test levels to a degree, but too much for too long of a time will end up lowering sensitivity to LHRH which slows production of Test. 
It also acts like a estrogen at the liver, which makes SHBG *as i say more below*
Without something to control the production of SHBG (which gets higher as we get older anyways) It would be counter-productive for TRT. For fertility issues however it is a prime choice (usually cuz the person is younger and the SHBG isnt as high)
The OP wants more kids, so for now clomid is the better choics. Test-rebound doesnt work as good, from the things ive seen/read/heard. IMO thats why if you want kids and TRT, you should try to do what you can w/o TRT first then if TRT is a must then make sure to use HCG to help keep everything going.. and with a good TRT dose for the individual body the extra test wont inhibit LH and FSH too much 





> Just received blood work:
> 
> Testosterone Serum 525 ng/dl (348-1197)
> Free Testosterone 8.5 pg/ml (8.7-25.1)
> LH 10.4 mIU/L (1.7-8.6)
> FSH 12.4 mIU/L (1.5-12.4)



That is because you doubled your dose. Clomid acts like an estrogen at the liver where SHBG is made, and that is a big cause for a low free test. Too much SHBG will hold on to the test longer so the free test in the blood will get used more resulting in a lower Free test level.

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## l2elapse

Ah didnt see the part where he wanted kids

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## double chicken

So here is my recent history followed up by the big question.
Before Clomid:
1.	Total Test: 344 ng/dl (249-836) 31 percentile of range
2.	Free Test: 6.9 pg/ml (8.7-25.1) Below range
3.	LH: 2.9 mlU/mL (1.7-8.6) 28 percentile of range
4.	FSH: 6.1 mLU/mL (1.5-12.4) 43 percentile of range
After 6 weeks on 25mg Clomid:
1.	Total Test: 520.44 ng/dl (350-890) 42 percentile of range
2.	Free Test: 100.8 pg/ml (47.0-244.0)	34 percentile of range
After 9 weeks on 50mg Clomid:
1.	Total Test: 525 ng/dl (348-1197)	34 percentile of range
2.	Free Test: 8.5 pg/ml (8.7-25.1) Below range
3.	LH: 10.4 mIU/mL (1.7-8.6) Above range
4.	FSH: 12.4 mIU/mL (1.5-12.4) 100 percentile of range
After 9 week BW (10/31/11) I have gone back to 25 mg dosage.
My wife is due February March 1st with our first child. Then we want to have the second child soon after at which time we will be done having children. 
So I guess the real question is: Do I start TRT now and feel great until it is time to impregnate wife and take the chance of not being able OR do I stick it out on 25mg of Clomid for the next year feeling just slightly less miserable?

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## double chicken

> It will raise test levels to a degree, but too much for too long of a time will end up lowering sensitivity to LHRH which slows production of Test. 
> It also acts like a estrogen at the liver, which makes SHBG *as i say more below*
> Without something to control the production of SHBG (which gets higher as we get older anyways) It would be counter-productive for TRT. For fertility issues however it is a prime choice (usually cuz the person is younger and the SHBG isnt as high)
> The OP wants more kids, so for now clomid is the better choics. Test-rebound doesnt work as good, from the things ive seen/read/heard. IMO thats why if you want kids and TRT, you should try to do what you can w/o TRT first then if TRT is a must then make sure to use HCG to help keep everything going.. and with a good TRT dose for the individual body the extra test wont inhibit LH and FSH too much 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is because you doubled your dose. Clomid acts like an estrogen at the liver where SHBG is made, and that is a big cause for a low free test. Too much SHBG will hold on to the test longer so the free test in the blood will get used more resulting in a lower Free test level.


Thanks Lemenada for the advice. Would you read my last post and still see if you still think the clomid route is the right one?

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## Lemonada8

> After 6 weeks on 25mg Clomid :
> 1.	Total Test : 520.44 ng/dl (350-890) 42 percentile of range
> 2.	Free Test : 100.8 pg/ml (47.0-244.0)	34 percentile of range


This shows that 25mg clomid is perfect for your needs. I would hold off on TRT untill you have the kids you want already in the making. TRT isnt as effective for fertility as clomid is, not saying its not possible just not as good.

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## LaBelva

Doc also prescribed me .25mg of Clomid ED for life. Followup every six months, but so far so good. Only difference is Im 23 and Test levels are at 450. PM if you have any questions about the difference in treatments!

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## double chicken

> Doc also prescribed me .25mg of Clomid ED for life. Followup every six months, but so far so good. Only difference is Im 23 and Test levels are at 450. PM if you have any questions about the difference in treatments!


What was the range for your 450?

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## LaBelva

I believe she said 250-1000. Dont have my other results on hand but I know my Prolactin was up by .8 twice and she told me I would have to get an MRI on my pituitary gland. I made a thread about my situation in this forum.

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