# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  The infamous lat 'V' taper

## gbrice75

Just wondering - generally speaking, should a person who has been lifting VERY consistently for 1.5 years have a noticable v-taper by now? 

When I walk around in a shirt (unless it's tight), you wouldn't even think i've ever seen the inside of a gym. As we know, one of the biggest things that gives you the 'bodybuilder' look is a nice v-taper. I just don't have it, at all - although it's 6 months old, you can clearly see this lack of any lats in my avy. I work lats hard, and don't know what else to do. I understand genetics dictate this to a point, but everybody should be able to make SOME gains in this area. Shoulder width also adds to that look (another lacking feature of mine), and along with a V-taper it would be unmistakable that a person works out.

Now, I do know that a thin waist creates the illusion of a better V, and since mine is relatively thick, that doesn't help me much. But still, I really haven't noticed any growth in my lats in 1.5 years... what gives? I do:

Pull ups - wide and narrow grips to try and hit different areas
I mix in some lat pull downs with the same wide and narrow grip variation

Bent over rows - and not to toot my own horn, but I do these with excellent form. Will also mix in some seated rows

I recently added deadlifts to my workouts in an effort to build some mass, although I don't know how much they directly stimulate lat growth. 

So, what do you think? What are my options here? I desperately want that V-taper and just can't seem to get it! HELP ME!

----------


## Dan111

Try doing some close grip t-bar or cable rows and make sure you bring the handle all the way to your body and squeeze, those two exercises are great for working out your outer back

Also try doing some pullups/lat pulldowns behind your neck (just don't smash your head on anything if you're doing pullups this way, lol)

----------


## Times Roman

I'm big waisted (38" waist) and never really had that V look. I'm OK with big shoulders, arms chest and legs (well, legs are lagging, but working on it)

----------


## gbrice75

> I'm big waisted (38" waist) and never really had that V look. I'm OK with big shoulders, arms chest and legs (well, legs are lagging, but working on it)


Do you think it's specifically because of having a relatively bigger waist, or do you just not have well developed lats? Or a combination of both?

----------


## PC650

try a back specialization program, LIT for all other body parts, and work the specific body part 3x a week ranging diff movements as well as diff rep range each workout. 4-5 weeks tops

----------


## Nooomoto

Beyond certain exercises there isn't much you can do. Your body is your body. If you have a large waist/hips then it's going to be more difficult to achieve, as opposed to a smaller guy who would have to build up his back and not worry about his waist.

----------


## Times Roman

> Do you think it's specifically because of having a relatively bigger waist, or do you just not have well developed lats? Or a combination of both?


It's a little of both I imagine, but when in the mirror and "muscling up", the lats do pop out nicely. So maybe now that you mention it, If i had, say, a 32 waist, there would be much more contrast, and therefore more noticeable. 

You know, at some point, I think a fella is just "stuck" with a certain minimum size waiste. My luv handles are almost gone, but I can still pinch an inch there. But I think the bottom line is I'm just big there. didn't used to be that way. But very little fat. Not sure what else I can do. I "may" be able to get down to a 36 if I try real hard, but i fear that would mean impacting additional muscle gains elsewhere.

Any ideas?

----------


## gbrice75

> try a back specialization program, LIT for all other body parts, and work the specific body part 3x a week ranging diff movements as well as diff rep range each workout. 4-5 weeks tops


I'll try anything, because i'm desparate at this point! Thanks guys.

----------


## gbrice75

> It's a little of both I imagine, but when in the mirror and "muscling up", the lats do pop out nicely. So maybe now that you mention it, If i had, say, a 32 waist, there would be much more contrast, and therefore more noticeable. 
> 
> You know, at some point, I think a fella is just "stuck" with a certain minimum size waiste. My luv handles are almost gone, but I can still pinch an inch there. But I think the bottom line is I'm just big there. didn't used to be that way. But very little fat. Not sure what else I can do. I "may" be able to get down to a 36 if I try real hard, but i fear that would mean impacting additional muscle gains elsewhere.
> 
> Any ideas?


Out of curiosity, how tall are you? I'm just asking, because taller/bigger guys can sometimes have a bigger waist. For instance, take a look at a guy like 50 Cent (the rapper, assuming you know who he is) - he has an excellent physique, but apparantly has a 38 inch waist - and also happens to be 6'3 or so. If you didn't know who he was, you might think he's on the fat side just based on his waist. I'm willing to bet he's around 10% bodyfat. So waist size can be misleading sometimes...

----------


## bigboomer

The few exercises I go super heavy with are barbell rows, coming up to top of abdomen.Db rows and wide grip pulldown with good form, no arching the back to much.These seem to widen my back in last 3 months, working specificly on the upper lats and shoulders. My routine was 1 body part a week back on monday and would do aboot 6-7 exercises with anywhere from 3-5 sets per exercise. I mean there wasnt a part of my back i didnt hit, and your wont hit back again for another 7 days so there plenty of time to rest recover and ..I find the 1 body part a week routine works quite well for me personally and whenever i and bulk up on size I come back to this type of workout.Anyways best of luck..

----------


## Times Roman

> Out of curiosity, how tall are you? I'm just asking, because taller/bigger guys can sometimes have a bigger waist. For instance, take a look at a guy like 50 Cent (the rapper, assuming you know who he is) - he has an excellent physique, but apparantly has a 38 inch waist - and also happens to be 6'3 or so. If you didn't know who he was, you might think he's on the fat side just based on his waist. I'm willing to bet he's around 10% bodyfat. So waist size can be misleading sometimes...


I am exactly 6' and one half inch
and weigh 225 to 230 depending....

I've mentioned this before, but when I was running competitively, I was around 160 and a 32" waist. I can't possibly imagine ever losing enough weight to get back to a 32" waiste. my body would have to shrivel up so much it would be pointless.

I don't know if this is true or not, but don't our organs grow a little as we age? I know the liver does somewhat. Or is my bad memory playing tricks on me again? Cuz I'm thinking (for lack of any other explanation) that my internal organs must be bigger or something???

any thoughts?

----------


## gbrice75

> I am exactly 6' and one half inch
> and weigh 225 to 230 depending....
> 
> I've mentioned this before, but when I was running competitively, I was around 160 and a 32" waist. I can't possibly imagine ever losing enough weight to get back to a 32" waiste. my body would have to shrivel up so much it would be pointless.
> 
> I don't know if this is true or not, but don't our organs grow a little as we age? I know the liver does somewhat. Or is my bad memory playing tricks on me again? Cuz I'm thinking (for lack of any other explanation) that my internal organs must be bigger or something???
> 
> any thoughts?


Hmm... I know you're right about the living enlarging somewhat, but i'm not sure about other organs. That would make sense though, that the body also grows to accommodate this natural process. Therefore pants a person wore when they were 20 can't necessarily be worn at 50. However, we see plenty of very skinny older people, 60's and beyond, easily with 32 inch waist, less in some cases. So, I guess that kinda debunks that idea... :Hmmmm:

----------


## Times Roman

> Hmm... I know you're right about the living enlarging somewhat, but i'm not sure about other organs. That would make sense though, that the body also grows to accommodate this natural process. Therefore pants a person wore when they were 20 can't necessarily be worn at 50. However, we see plenty of very skinny older people, 60's and beyond, easily with 32 inch waist, less in some cases. So, I guess that kinda debunks that idea...


Maybe.... but some of those older people you refer to may have been skinny all their lives. I'm thinking that as the body grows so do the organs, but try to shrink the body, and the organs are kinda "stuck" where they are at.

I have nothing to back up this hypothesis, just a "gut" feeling! =)

----------


## First6

> For instance, take a look at a guy like 50 Cent (the rapper, assuming you know who he is) - he has an excellent physique...


I think it comes down to genes at this point. That huge V falls into the catagory of you got what you got. Sure you can enhance it but you have to have the right body shape to start with.
There is a LOT of guys who work out hard regularly that just don't have it.

Oh and btw... you havn't seen 50 cent lately have you. He threw it all away Bro! Lost almost 60 lbs! Here are some pics I found quick: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_591102.html

----------


## Times Roman

> I think it comes down to genes at this point. That huge V falls into the catagory of you got what you got. Sure you can enhance it but you have to have the right body shape to start with.
> There is a LOT of guys who work out hard regularly that just don't have it.
> 
> Oh and btw... you havn't seen 50 cent lately have you. He threw it all away Bro! Lost almost 60 lbs! Here are some pics I found quick: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_591102.html


so fitty cent is now really 32 cent?
nominate for a name change anyone?

----------


## First6

> so fitty cent is now really 32 cent?
> nominate for a name change anyone?


 :Haha:  good stuff

----------


## PC650

i never thought 50 was yolked in the first place....

----------


## Jfew44

I'm 6'3" and have a 36" waist with probably 10-12% bf right now. Alot of it has to do with bone structure as well.

----------


## JBarron

I think building up boulder looking shoulders really helps when trying to attain that v-taper.

I noticed once my shoulders began to "pop" the v-taper really started to show.

Also, may I suggest another technique I use to keep a slim waistline. I do a stomach vacuum routine every other night, this will also aid in obtaining that v-taper.

google stomach vacuums! Hope this helps

----------


## Cousinbutch

My back used to be my weakest muscle group and now its by far my best. I just stopped trying to throw around weights and did EVERY back exercise with a full stretch and a full squeeze, I do 2-3 seconds positive, 2-3 second full squeeze, 3-4 second negative and and never hit a real 'rest' position until I'm done (like letting a weight just hang I mean). Now I started training everything like that because my back surpassed everything else.

Another thing that helps is a good set of straps, I use Schiek PLS-1000. Wrap it tight enough so I barely have to hold any weight with my fingers, and I never put my thumb over to make a fist, this really helps me eliminate the biceps from doing any work and insures I wont have forearm failure before back failure.

----------


## gbrice75

> Oh and btw... you havn't seen 50 cent lately have you. He threw it all away Bro! Lost almost 60 lbs! Here are some pics I found quick: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_591102.html


Actually I have seen him, he did this for a movie. Imagine purposely LOSING all your gains! I guess for the right price, it's worth it!

----------


## gbrice75

> so fitty cent is now really 32 cent?
> nominate for a name change anyone?


lol nice dude!

----------


## gbrice75

> i never thought 50 was yolked in the first place....


I'm not saying he was the hugest guy in the world, but I don't think anybody would argue that he had a really nice body... very lean and muscular, and had SOME size, I mean it's not like he was just a skinny cut up guy.

----------


## gbrice75

And thanks for the feedback guys (JBarron, Cousinbutch) - i'll be focusing on back ALOT!

----------


## stefan-109

I think it would have to do with the amount of reps youve been doing personally if its latspecific e.g. lat pull down, wide bent over rows i keep it to a higher rep rage such as 12,12,10,10 for sets. Try volume reps for lats

----------


## MrGreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFBf...eature=related

Personally I think that is one of the most desirable features to obtain while lifting. Myself I have wide shoulder and back so it does not take a whole lot to get it to start forming. There is a ton of videos on youtube of back routines. I think its a personal thing and finding what works for you the best. I have a shallow chest and personally dont like it so I tend to focus more on it. I dream of my chest filling out about like you do your lats I am sure! LOL Everyone was build different and some just have to work harder to achieve their goals in one area but may have easier time with others that some may have trouble with.

----------


## liftw8t

I think alot is genetic but I noticed mine came in when I started using the wide grip bar with handles on the ends for seated rows and lat pulls and magically a few months later v taper. The bar gives a great squeeze with lats

----------


## BigBuck6

In order to achieve the ultimate v taper you must abide by the golden ratio. The ratio is is roughly 1.6~ and is your shoulder measurement divided by your waist measurement. Have someone measure your shoulders while you are relaxed with proper posture and then measure your waist which is just at the top of your hips. Obviously, a lower number means that your waist is too big and your shoulders are too small or vise-versa.

----------


## LBSOMEIRON

Two things that helped me....I do pull-ups every single day (almost) - whether it's at the end of my routine 3-4 sets or during back 6-8 sets. AND at least 3 sets of lat raises...even on leg days - it may be really light, but I squeeze them out. Remember, the taper illusion comes from wide delts, not necessarily a big back and small waist.

Some other notes:

rope extented pulldowns with a lat squeeze

Broomstick twists - DO NOT use weighted side bends

and stomach vaccuums - Arnold style.

Just my $.03 - take it for what it's worth.

----------


## baseline_9

Tight waist + good side delts = v taper

I dont rate wide grip pulldowns ( really wide )

I keep them just over shoulder width apart

Big delt aswell will help, make sure u are doin ur side laterals rite, most people do side laterals but mainly work front delts

----------


## baseline_9

Try pulling ur gut in as much as you can

Doing vacumes all day long should help train ur TVA and create a tighter waist

----------


## lovbyts

> Try pulling ur gut in as much as you can
> 
> Doing vacumes all day long should help train ur TVA and create a tighter waist


You know what's funny, they may be called Arnold vacuums but I started doing them when I was in grade school back in the 70s. No one told me about them. I knew I was not FAT but I had a little bit of a gut so I figured if I concentrated on holding it in eventually it would get flatter; the muscles would learn to stay in instead of being extended out.

I remember one kid trying to give me sh*t on the playground during PE once. He  :1laugh:  and said you are holding your stomach in. I said Yes and explained my theory. He stopped laughing.  :Hmmmm:   :Bbiwin: 

I have not done these for quite a while but yes they work. Time to start up again.....

----------


## LBSOMEIRON

> You know what's funny, they may be called Arnold vacuums but I started doing them when I was in grade school back in the 70s. No one told me about them. I knew I was not FAT but I had a little bit of a gut so I figured if I concentrated on holding it in eventually it would get flatter; the muscles would learn to stay in instead of being extended out.
> 
> I remember one kid trying to give me sh*t on the playground during PE once. He  and said you are holding your stomach in. I said Yes and explained my theory. He stopped laughing.  
> 
> I have not done these for quite a while but yes they work. Time to start up again.....




I'll tell you why bro, cause Arnold is a tad older than you and HE was doing vacuums in grade school.  :Bbiwin: 

I'm kidding...I think he just made them famous.

----------


## lovbyts

> I'll tell you why bro, cause Arnold is a tad older than you and HE was doing vacuums in grade school. 
> 
> I'm kidding...I think he just made them famous.


Yes he is a LITTLE older than me but when I was in grade school I had never head of him and neither had most people.

----------


## 23scott16

Vacumes + Pullups  :7up:

----------


## Stephen73ta

I've always heard wide grip=wide back

----------


## bjpennnn

i have a massive lats huge back. Every once in a while on my back day i will just do 10 sets of pull ups. that is your money workout for a wide back.

----------


## voidofRoids

I'd say this really comes down to identifying all the factors that impact that appearance; 1. width of your lats, 2. width of your shoulders (deltoid depth), 3. waist width, 4. back depth, and 5. trap length.

Now, obviously some of these have far more impact and are far more practical/important. Of course, focus on wide lat pulldowns and pullups to really work the lats specifically (pay specific attention to your range of motion, assure that you do not over-compensate with your biceps). Secondly, Overall size of the back is the biggest factor (IMHO); therefore you've got to really push the barbell rows and deadlifts. These two exercises make or break one's back.

From this point on it is really nitpicking: i.e., genetically you are just having a tough time with enlarging your back - so minimize your waist. Drop bodyfat, stomach vacuums are an old exercise from some of the bodybuilding originals (not sure how successful they really are), but potentially worth a try, and of course, simply doing some core work to tighten the muscle groups.

Two things I haven't touched on that aren't necessarily relevant, but I feel will provide an impact on the illusion of a v-taper: your deltoid width and trap length. While they don't really impact the width of your back, they do make it appear larger. If all else fails, hit the outside head of the delt and the traps a little extra. Good luck brother, hope it works out for ya.

----------


## LBSOMEIRON

> i have a massive lats huge back. Every once in a while on my back day i will just do 10 sets of pull ups. that is your money workout for a wide back.


 A comment like that is completely worthless without a pic. Not calling you out, but all of the 'keyboard bodybuilders' have ruined the honor policy. 

You're up.

----------


## tembe

> A comment like that is completely worthless without a pic. Not calling you out, but all of the 'keyboard bodybuilders' have ruined the honor policy. 
> 
> You're up.



hahahah nice

----------


## stevey_6t9

> A comment like that is completely worthless without a pic. Not calling you out, but all of the 'keyboard bodybuilders' have ruined the honor policy. 
> 
> You're up.


ok i guess im up too.

here ya go...

----------


## LBSOMEIRON

> ok i guess im up too.
> 
> here ya go...


Classic.

WHere the hell did you find that?

----------


## stevey_6t9

> Classic.
> 
> WHere the hell did you find that?


that was taken of me during my mr olympia tour in south africa in 1975

----------


## GetSwole83

IMO to get the V taper.....you have to incorporate lower lat and lower trapezius work....which not many people do because they are not sure how to work these muscles. Try placing a wide grip lat pulldown bar on the rowing column and go as wide as you can....you will not be able to move as much weight in this position, however you should try to get as much weight and still keep form. NO CHEATING. Pull the bar to BELOW your navel and squeeze your shoulder blades down and back, try to insert your right shoulder blade into the left back pocket...and vise versa....and squeeze. Hold for a few seconds and then repeat. I am aim for around 20 of these as kind of a burn out at the end of the workout of you can do pre-exhaustive training as well. Another good exercise for lower trap development is a dual PNF pattern with cables. Lower two cable columns to the floor and grab the cable itself not the handle. Grab the right one with your left hand and left with the right. Bring the cables up across your chest so that is looks like your are doing a front double bi pose only squeeze your shoulder baldes down and back like stated above. Worked for me before my contests a few years ago. I still do both of these exercises today. Great for a V taper. IMO.  :Smilie:  Good luck!

----------


## bjpennnn

lol just saw this. smart ass ha.

----------


## gbrice75

Thanks for all the feedback and great suggestions guys! It figures that delts would play a huge role in this 'illusion' - i'm not even sure I was born with medial delts!

I am definitely going to try seated rows with the wide grip pull down bar - i've actually been meaning to incorporate this exercise for some time.

----------


## gbrice75

LoL Stevey, that's the greatest lat spread EVER!

----------


## Swole-Brah

Simply putting it out there.. when do you tend to work out your back? At the beginning of your training schedule or more towards the end? Possibly, prioritizing at the beginning of a new week when you are more fresh would help you hit your back even harder, of course at the possible expense of another muscle groups. Lets use Leg day as an example. who need em anyway? lol. Try Side to Side pull-ups to make sure you are equally hitting your lats.. with 1.5 years experience your bicep strength should be more than able to compensate for the difficulty of this pull-up (weighted of course).  :Smilie:

----------


## stevey_6t9

> LoL Stevey, that's the greatest lat spread EVER!


thanks bro, its a good V taper, mainly cos im pushing in my huge love handles.

----------


## growing1

this whole post was freakn halarious but helpful.

----------


## streeter

Just my two cents but I really think it boils down to whatever exercise you can feel it in your lats. I know for me it was hard at first to feel it in my lats before my arms gave out, but the more I concentrated on using my lats and not my arms the better I got at them. Some exercises I found work better than others and I switch it up often so I think each person just has to find those ones they can feel it in the lat the most and try new things all the time. I have done some strange stuff in the gym to work my lats and now a few others have asked me about it and they do them to. The one I am talking about is hard to explain but I will try. I take the two hand thing that looks a lot like this  then I put it over the middle of the chin up bar on the Universal gym equipment now when you pull yourself up I bring my chin to the end of the chin up bar which makes my arms pull the T-handle to my sternum. I find it works the lower part of my lats extending the "V" taper.

----------

