# STEROIDS FORUM > PCT (POST CYCLE THERAPY) >  HCG vs. CLOMID

## EXCELLENCE

if proper protocaol is being followed with clomid and anti e do you need HCG also what im trying to say is i thought HCG and clomid did the same thing do you need both when PCT is being done? :Shrug:

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## ToTheBuckeT21

No you don't need to take HCG and clomid at the same time... one or the other
HCG is pretty great.. I don't like clomid but i'll use it if I gotta.. Proviron is the best if you can get your hands on it

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## EXCELLENCE

appreciate the help thanks

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## Merc..

Hcg is suppressive .. 

Nolva should be used in conjuction with HCG to block the conversion of 17 ohp to test.. 

Merc.

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## Swifto

Use HCG when "on", at around 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly. 

10-15 days before PCT starts ramp your AI slightly and HCG to 250-500ius/ED.

Begin PCT after this 10-15 days of HCG use with a SERM/AI.

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## will_work

if your asking of what every one likes more....imo from what iv read i like hcg better it sounds pretty good you dont need to take clomid and hcg together....but you take nolva and hcg together...

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## Merc..

Hcg alone is not a good idea for pct...

It is suppressive !! conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone to test.. ( which is blocked by nolva )

You need to use nolva with it..

Merc.

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## Merc..

Here ya go !!

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.
Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

PMID: 7419679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE



Merc.

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## Merc..

> if your asking of what every one likes more....imo from what iv read i like hcg better it sounds pretty good you dont need to take clomid and hcg together....but you take nolva and hcg together...


Clomid and nolva are both SERMS .. Nolva is just more effective.. 

It takes about 150 mg of clomid to do what 20 mg of nolva can..


Merc.

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## will_work

^^^^^ yeah that right!!!

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## Swifto

> Clomid and nolva are both SERMS .. *Nolva is just more effective..* 
> It takes about 150 mg of clomid to do what 20 mg of nolva can..
> 
> 
> Merc.


I'm not sure thats true anymore. I'll try to hook out the study on Clomid raising T by a fair margin at 25mg/ED. Clomid is more active than Nolva at the pituitary too.

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## Swifto

*Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.*

Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone , but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy . This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia , nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

PMID: 16422830 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Thats not it. But the results are fairly shocking on 25mg/ED for 4-6 weeks. Anyone want to work out the %?

I've now included 25-50mg/ED of Clomid in my PCT for 5-6 weeks.

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## critic7

> if proper protocaol is being followed with clomid and anti e do you need HCG also what im trying to say is i thought HCG and clomid did the same thing do you need both when PCT is being done?


I don't think u know what u talking about. I suggest go over the profile for each of this drug u mention. It will help u in researching what u looking for. Good luck and don't be shy to ask farthur questions.

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## Merc..

> *Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.*
> 
> Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.
> 
> AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone , but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy . This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia , nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.
> 
> PMID: 16422830 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> 
> Thats not it. But the results are fairly shocking on 25mg/ED for 4-6 weeks. Anyone want to work out the %?
> ...



So how come endocrinologist dont opt for Clomid therapy over administering test if clomid is so effective in treating hypogonadism ?? 

I dont know of any that use clomid as a replacement for testosterone in hypogonadal men .. ( it might be done but its definitely not common practice )...


Merc.

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## Swifto

> So how come endocrinologist dont opt for Clomid therapy over administering test if clomid is so effective in treating hypogonadism ?? 
> 
> I dont know of any that use clomid as a replacement for testosterone in hypogonadal men .. ( it might be done but its definitely not common practice )...
> 
> 
> Merc.


It is done.

Its also done with AI's in some circumstnces.

'Dr John'(Endo), who used to post on M&M talked of it. He talked of it as something that needs to be explored before TRT.

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## 3bd

Great post.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that hcg is much harder to come by than Clomid or Nolva, why is that?

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## Project

> Great post.
> 
> I may be wrong but it seems to me that hcg is much harder to come by than Clomid or Nolva, why is that?


Clomi and Nolv are research chems

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