# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  The Iranian Threat to America

## g0dsend

Im suprised noone posted an article on this yet...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...ran.middleeast




> Tehran significantly raised tensions in the Persian Gulf yesterday by conducting missile tests and making clear that its weapons could be used against Israel and US forces if Iran was attacked.
> 
> According to Iranian official reports, the military exercise involved nine missiles, one of them a new Shahab-3 long-range missile that could easily reach Israel and a number of US bases in the region.
> 
> The R*********ary Guard air force commander, Hossein Salami, said the test was not routine but a demonstration of resolve as pressure grows on Iran to curb its nuclear programme. "We warn enemies who threaten us with military exercises and empty psychological operations that our hand will be on the trigger and our missiles will always be ready to launch," Salami said. He added that Iran had thousands of missiles ready to be launched against "pre-determined targets".
> 
> Days earlier, Ali Shirazi, an aide to Iran's Supreme Leader, said Iran would retaliate against Israel and the US if it was attacked. "If they commit such a silly move, Tel Aviv and the US fleet in the Persian Gulf will be Iran's first targets and they will be burned with Iran's crushing response," he said.



In my own view, it seems like Iran is provoking the USA to create tensions, but on the other hand is playing it off as the USA creating propaganda. Making USA look like the bad guy while Iran is the innocent person.


For example in this article...

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Irania...with_0708.html






> "I assure you that there won't be any war in the future," Ahmadinejad told a news conference during a visit to Malaysia for a summit of developing Muslim nations.
> 
> Ahmadinejad's comments came less than 24 hours after Iran's R*********ary Guards announced that its forces were carrying out a military drill involving "missile squads" and warned that the country would retaliate against any military strike by targeting Tel Aviv and U.S. warships in the Gulf.

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## Prada

Well the saber rattling has been going on for some time.

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## RangersLTW

Never hit us base thanks to them ada guys. Iran is just trying to play in the yard for a minute, they will get back on the porch. All offense and no defense, a whole bunch of targets for us to aim at. Isreal alone could care less about there missile silo's, there just playing the good guy, right now. I have trained with Isreals forces and let me tell you first hand, they have solid equipment to take anything Iran has. Iran does not want Allied forces knocking at there door because of the great funding from terroist supporters. I would be more worried about what they are covering up with all the missile threats than what they are actually going to do with them.

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## g0dsend

Seems like Iran Media has been photoshopping images to make their missiles look more mean.

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## g0dsend

They apparently photoshopped an image cause one of them failed....

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/200.../index.html?hp

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## inheritmylife

I am not a big fan of Iran or any other country, including the US, having nukes, but I think Iran is just trying to assure their sovereignty. The US, or anyone else for that matter, can't really invade them if they have the means to nuke us.

The cold war lasted for decades without a shot being fired because of the threat of nuclear weapons.

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## thegodfather

> Never hit us base thanks to them ada guys. Iran is just trying to play in the yard for a minute, they will get back on the porch. All offense and no defense, a whole bunch of targets for us to aim at. Isreal alone could care less about there missile silo's, there just playing the good guy, right now. I have trained with Isreals forces and let me tell you first hand, they have solid equipment to take anything Iran has. Iran does not want Allied forces knocking at there door because of the great funding from terroist supporters. I would be more worried about what they are covering up with all the missile threats than what they are actually going to do with them.


Lets everyone reading this forum get one thing straightened out from that article above. Iran is NOT a threat to the *MAIN LAND* United States. Iran however, may be a threat to the United States armed forces illegally occupying sovereign territory. Those are two things, that are not to be confused. Had we not pursued our imperialist ventures and implemented a policy of non-interventionism, the number of Iranian missles would be irrelevant since they dont have any ICBMs. The idea that Iran even has the slightest chance of "threatening" United States forces is absurd unfounded neo-con rhetoric. 

Second point. Israel is a sovereign country, and what happens to it, should be of absolutely no concern to the United States, and should not influence United States policy at all. I think that every member of AIPAC should either be imprisoned or deported back to Israel. To think that we actually have a lobby who's sole purpose is to ensure continued US support of their country (One which is guilty of thousands of international human rights violations by the way) is as equally as absurd as the idea of Iran being able to threaten the United States homeland. 

Neo-con fear mongering is all this shit amounts to. I would seriously question the sanity and IQ level of anyone who buys this shit hook, line, and sinker.

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## Act of God



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## Kratos

> Lets everyone reading this forum get one thing straightened out from that article above. Iran is NOT a threat to the *MAIN LAND* Second point. Israel is a sovereign country, and what happens to it, should be of absolutely no concern to the United States, and should not influence United States policy at all. .


It's my opinion that we should let the Muslims and the Jews fight it out like they have done for thousands of years. Far too much religious passion over this peice of land. The Jewish people of this country would not be too happy though.

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## inheritmylife

> It's my opinion that we should let the Muslims and the Jews fight it out like they have done for thousands of years. Far too much religious passion over this peice of land. The Jewish people of this country would not be too happy though.


I agree. I'd hope that they could redolve their differences with diplomacy. But if they can't it's not our place to force a solution or take sides.

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## Fat Guy

> Lets everyone reading this forum get one thing straightened out from that article above. Iran is NOT a threat to the *MAIN LAND* United States. Iran however, may be a threat to the United States armed forces illegally occupying sovereign territory. Those are two things, that are not to be confused. Had we not pursued our imperialist ventures and implemented a policy of non-interventionism, the number of Iranian missles would be irrelevant since they dont have any ICBMs. The idea that Iran even has the slightest chance of "threatening" United States forces is absurd unfounded neo-con rhetoric. 
> 
> Second point. Israel is a sovereign country, and what happens to it, should be of absolutely no concern to the United States, and should not influence United States policy at all. I think that every member of AIPAC should either be imprisoned or deported back to Israel. To think that we actually have a lobby who's sole purpose is to ensure continued US support of their country (One which is guilty of thousands of international human rights violations by the way) is as equally as absurd as the idea of Iran being able to threaten the United States homeland. 
> 
> Neo-con fear mongering is all this shit amounts to. I would seriously question the sanity and IQ level of anyone who buys this shit hook, line, and sinker.


WOW for once you and I agree, except about the part of Israel being a sovereign nation but that is a whole other issue however youre right it is not our business what happens to Israel but that wont happen considering the U.S. propped up Israel as a sovereign nation on other peoples land for religious reasons after WWII 

However you right on point with this being nothing more than neo-con fear mongering and only dumb-asses will buy into the media generated B.S.

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## Glow2004

I think it would be naive to assume that the internal propaganda disseminated by the Iranian political class necessarily translates into policy intentions.

Suppose Iran even developed a single nuclear weapon (which is quite unlikely as the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate provides ample evidence that the Iranian nuclear has not been active since 2003). I don't think it would further any Iranian interests to launch a nuclear offensive, when the US and Israel combined are capable of massive asymetrical nuclear retaliation.

It would hard to ignore to possibility that hyping the supposed Iranian threat serves some sort of unstated political interests.

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## sam_sneed

I study the middle east as part of my degree and personally i find it a disgusting situation.

A Jewish Kingdom existed from the 10th Century BC in the middle east as two seperate states of Israel and Judah. These were destroyed by the Babylonians in the 6th Century BC who in turn were succeeded by the Persian Empire (which Iran is direct descendant of.)

The problem with me is that Arabs then later Muslims have ruled this area of the world for longer than the Israelites, so why are Muslims depicted as terrorists clearly the state of Israel is illegitimate and only survives as it is propped up by the US.

As for Iran being a threat to the US i doubt it maybe regionally within the Middle East but globally no chance.

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## Kratos

[QUOTE=Fat Guy;4076213]WOW for once you and I agreeQUOTE]

Finding yourself in agreement with a conservative? How does it feel to be right? (pun intended)

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## Nicotine

lets give iran and all those other countries working nukes.

let em have at it. sit back, and mind ourselves.

it's not our business.

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## Glow2004

Iran will have Russia, China, Syria, Lebanon, possibly Egypt, and a strong backing from Venezuela.

Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt - if they get involved will focus on Israel. Venezuela will discontinue oil sales to the US, and China could stop loaning us money.

India bought a lot of Russian Military equipment, and since we have a better relation with Pakistan, India might use that as an opportunity to go at Pakistan.

The US and Israel will have Great Britain, Germany, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and maybe Turkey. Saudi Arabia will not do much but allow us to use the air bases there. They won't want to piss off the rest of the Arab countries by aiding Israel, but they also don't want to risk a religious theocracy moving into Iraq as it would if Iran had anything to do with it. 

If a war breaks between Iran and Israel/US, oil will sky rocket. That will cause a lot of problems for different countries and it will be interesting to see who they blame - Israel for launching a preemptive attack, or Iran for being in the "Axis of Evil"

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## Kratos

> lets give iran and all those other countries working nukes.
> 
> let em have at it. sit back, and mind ourselves.
> 
> it's not our business.


nah, they'll blow up all the oil wells, and tank our economy if we give them nukes.

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## sam_sneed

"Axis of Evil" That's a very subjective statement. No offense but who are you to determine who is evil. If you read my post Arabs hold legitimacy in Afghanistan, Iran , Iraq , Saudi Arabia , Syria , Oman , Yemen , Jordan , Pakistan. And have claims in Egypt , Tunisia , Libya , Algeria and Morocco. If a war broke out Saudi Arabia and Pakisatan would definitely NOT support any country against Iran.

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## Glow2004

> "Axis of Evil" That's a very subjective statement. No offense but who are you to determine who is evil. If you read my post Arabs hold legitimacy in Afghanistan, Iran , Iraq , Saudi Arabia , Syria , Oman , Yemen , Jordan , Pakistan. And have claims in Egypt , Tunisia , Libya , Algeria and Morocco. If a war broke out Saudi Arabia and Pakisatan would definitely NOT support any country against Iran.


Sooner or later we have to decide whether to reach an accommodation with Iran or to fight!!!! them.

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## Kratos

Well, I just got back from turkey 2 weeks ago and I have to say what I saw of the direction the muslim religion is moving is truely bad. The fundamedalist movment has become truely strong in Iran, and some other countries, it's moving into Turkey as well. It starts slowly, for example they tried to change the law in Turkey to allow women to cover themselves in University. That's how it starts. Next think you know they are stoning women to death who dare to drive a car. Where the religion is going, and what is written in the koran are two different things. They should be able to share the religious places of Israil, but it's about control, and a show of power.

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## Glow2004

> "Axis of Evil" That's a very subjective statement. No offense but who are you to determine who is evil. If you read my post Arabs hold legitimacy in Afghanistan, Iran , Iraq , Saudi Arabia , Syria , Oman , Yemen , Jordan , Pakistan. And have claims in Egypt , Tunisia , Libya , Algeria and Morocco. If a war broke out Saudi Arabia and Pakisatan would definitely NOT support any country against Iran.


I am an ex Royal Marine Commando mate...Been There, Seen Axis of Evil

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## sam_sneed

Glow, sorry man but you cannot be serious fight them? Why? Arabs own that land and have ruled it for nearly 2000 years. You are clearly ignorant to the historical context of the situation which without this leads to statements such as fight them. What claim does America have in the Middle East please enlighten me?

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## Glow2004

> Glow, sorry man but you cannot be serious fight them? Why? Arabs own that land and have ruled it for nearly 2000 years. You are clearly ignorant to the historical context of the situation which without this leads to statements such as fight them. What claim does America have in the Middle East please enlighten me?


Are you serious? Iran supported Nazi Germany in WW ll. The Arabs supported Germany in WW ll. They were siding with the Nazi's who were killing US
"bring it on" lets nuke em

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## Panzerfaust

LMFAO @ at any stupid **** who thinks Iran is a "threat" to the USA.

Damn, they have trained you well.

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## sam_sneed

> "bring it on" lets nuke em


Statement of a brainwashed nationalistic idiot.

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## Glow2004

> LMFAO @ at any stupid **** who thinks Iran is a "threat" to the USA.
> 
> Damn, they have trained you well.


Those piles of ***t kill and wound our Soldiers in Iraq and have sponsored terrorism around the globe, killing civilians from all nationalities

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## Glow2004

> Statement of a brainwashed nationalistic idiot.


there u.s allies dont have terrorists running the country.ya know those suicide bomber fanaticle holy wars garabs that go out of there way and over the border just to shoot at some americans in iraq..ever heard of the news?
...da?

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## sam_sneed

> Those piles of ***t kill and wound our Soldiers in Iraq and have sponsored terrorism around the globe, killing civilians from all nationalities


Whilst THEIR country has been invaded and THEIR innocent civilians killed. Soldiers VOLUNTEER for this their NOT conscripted. How many people have died from terrorism in comparison to Iraqi's + Afghans.

Your so narrow minded you can't see THEIR side of the coin. Their fighting for something they believe in are willing to die for, yet lack the capabilities for modern warfare, what are they supposed to do? Surrender their culture/beliefs etc. because America/UK and other NEO-IMPERIALISTS say so.

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## sam_sneed

> there u.s allies dont have terrorists running the country.ya know those suicide bomber fanaticle holy wars garabs that go out of there way and over the border just to shoot at some americans in iraq..ever heard of the news?
> ...da?


Key sentence *Americans in Iraq* A different continent, no WMD's = Unjust War.

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## Kratos

> Glow, sorry man but you cannot be serious fight them? Why? Arabs own that land and have ruled it for nearly 2000 years. You are clearly ignorant to the historical context of the situation which without this leads to statements such as fight them. What claim does America have in the Middle East please enlighten me?


Are you saying Iranian's are rational people with a legit claim to the land? Why? Why is it their land? Because their skin is a certain color? Because they want to build a Mosque there? Because in Iran the have turned the Muslim religion into an excuse to muder, brainwash and control people? They have no claim to that land either. Since the time of Constantine, Christians had gone on pilgrimages to the Holy Land. Even though Moslems had ruled Jerusalem since 638. Don't forget about the crusades 1000 years ago. The land is there for everyone in the world.

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## Glow2004

> Key sentence *Americans in Iraq* A different continent, no WMD's = Unjust War.


Did you read the reports confirming that IEDs that are blowing up British countrymen are coming from Iran? Did you not see the speedboats attempting to attack U.S. Naval ships? I could go on and on but nevermind. You can't argue with a pighead. I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time....

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## sam_sneed

> Are you saying Iranian's are rational people with a legit claim to the land? Why? Why is it their land? Because their skin is a certain color? Because they want to build a Mosque there? Because in Iran the have turned the Muslim religion into an excuse to muder, brainwash and control people? They have no claim to that land either. Since the time of Constantine, Christians had gone on pilgrimages to the Holy Land. Even though Moslems had ruled Jerusalem since 638. Don't forget about the crusades 1000 years ago. The land is there for everyone in the world.


I don't agree with modern interpretations of the Koran i think it should be completely revised to account for changes in modern society. It's their land as i stated in earlier posts as the modern sovereign states are descendants of those which controlled the middle east in antiquity. I agree all religions should have access to Jerusalem, in fact i believe Jerusalem should be a state itself similar to the Vatican in Rome free of politics. What do you mean remember the crusades ? Despite what you may think the Crusades was not an attempt to allow Christians access to Jerusalem.

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## Glow2004

> I don't agree with modern interpretations of the Koran i think it should be completely revised to account for changes in modern society. It's their land as i stated in earlier posts as the modern sovereign states are descendants of those which controlled the middle east in antiquity. I agree all religions should have access to Jerusalem, in fact i believe Jerusalem should be a state itself similar to the Vatican in Rome free of politics. What do you mean remember the crusades ? Despite what you may think the Crusades was not an attempt to allow Christians access to Jerusalem.


and let iran nuke isreal?
NO WAY!

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## sam_sneed

> Did you read the reports confirming that IEDs that are blowing up British countrymen are coming from Iran? Did you not see the speedboats attempting to attack U.S. Naval ships? I could go on and on but nevermind. You can't argue with a pighead. I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time....


British countrymen who should not be there fighting an unjust war. Sorry man you can't just say because there British there exempt from being attacked in a foreign land. Attacking US ships which strayed into Iranian waters. I don't call a few dinghies an attack anyway it was hardly Midway.

As for the pighead comment, obviously your very nationalistic bordering on xenophobic of Muslim culture. So i don't expect you to try an understand the plight of a people of whom the vast majority have done nothing wrong yet are being treated appallingly.

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## doolo

This is where i get my education, kleep it coming please.

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## sam_sneed

> and let iran nuke isreal?
> NO WAY!


What the hell are you talking about? There is no definitive proof Iran is enriching Uranium, which *By the way is the right of any sovereign state to use its countries natural resources.* let alone build nuclear weapons never mind use them. Why would Iran nuke Jerusalem it has religous significance for Muslims also.

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## thegodfather

> Did you read the reports confirming that IEDs that are blowing up British countrymen are coming from Iran? Did you not see the speedboats attempting to attack U.S. Naval ships? I could go on and on but nevermind. You can't argue with a pighead. I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time....


Unfortunately, I am going to make you look like a complete fool right now.

Point number 1. 

US Soldiers Dead: 4,000
US Soldiers Wounded: 20,000

Iraqi CIVILIANS DEAD: 1,000,000

That is since the start of the Iraq war in 2001. Who are the terrorists? How can you even call these people "terrorists?" Terrorism is a TACTIC OF WAR. It is not a person or place. Anyway, the victor has ALWAYS labeled the subjugated people it was attempting to conquer as "terrorists" "traitors" "evil" and the like. I find it laughable that you call these people terrorists yet when we look at the numbers, they have killed 4,000 of our soldiers and we have killed 1,000,000 of their civilians, mostly with the use of BOMBS dropped from the air. Of course, bombing the hell out of them from the sky is a completely legitimate, ok, and "moral" way to fight war, YET!!! when an Iraqi freedom fighter "insurgent/terrorist" uses an I.E.D. to TARGET *SOLDIERS* fighting in a *WAR* we have the fu*ing balls to call them terrorists? 

*THEY WANT THEIR COUNTRY BACK, THEY WANT US OFF OF THEIR LAND THAT WAS INVADED!*

Americans are the first ones to claim SOVEREIGNTY whenever the United Nations or some other such organization detests an action of the United States. Yet, when another nation does something we dont agree with, we are the FIRST ONES to try to influence their actions and infringe on THEIR sovereignty. You're hypocrisy is sickening. Neo-conservative rhetorical bullshit!

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## sam_sneed

Great post, Godfather. Agree 100%

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## sam_sneed

BTW, it must take unbelievable courage / personal belief to be a suicide bomber. Blowing yourself to pieces for what you believe in , in my opinion is admirable.

> The targeting of innocent civilians is unacceptable but attacks on military personnel is fair game.

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## Glow2004

> What the hell are you talking about? There is no definitive proof Iran is enriching Uranium, which *By the way is the right of any sovereign state to use its countries natural resources.* let alone build nuclear weapons never mind use them. Why would Iran nuke Jerusalem it has religous significance for Muslims also.


Why do you want to go back to school? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16heo...eature=related

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## Glow2004

97% KIlls are IEDS U TW{{{S



> Unfortunately, I am going to make you look like a complete fool right now.
> 
> Point number 1. 
> 
> US Soldiers Dead: 4,000
> US Soldiers Wounded: 20,000
> 
> Iraqi CIVILIANS DEAD: 1,000,000
> 
> ...

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## Kratos

> I don't agree with modern interpretations of the Koran i think it should be completely revised to account for changes in modern society. It's their land as i stated in earlier posts as the modern sovereign states are descendants of those which controlled the middle east in antiquity. I agree all religions should have access to Jerusalem, in fact i believe Jerusalem should be a state itself similar to the Vatican in Rome free of politics. What do you mean remember the crusades ? Despite what you may think the Crusades was not an attempt to allow Christians access to Jerusalem.


A decentenat of the people who once controlled a land.  :Aajack: 
I guess I should give my house to the Native American's.

Make no mystake, they hate the Jewish people and it's an assertion of power of the Muslim religion.

We don't belong fighting Iran or defending the Jews imo. The whole thing is screwed up by oil. People have been killing themselves over that land for thousands of years. Getting involved in a holy war is the best excuse we can give them to perpetuate hate for America.

The whole region is so f-ed up, if there is no outside stabilizing force, they'll all blow each other up. Oil keeps America there. 

It's my understanding, the Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule. Many Christians died for Jerusalem.

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## sam_sneed

> Why do you want to go back to school? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16heo...eature=related


Are you seriously referencing a youtube video as a reliable source of information! LMFAO ! 

I can't watch it anyway on my PC but here's a newsflash. *No shred of evidence Iran is enriching Uranium, making all assumptions of a nuclear threat void*

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## Kratos

> BTW, it must take unbelievable courage / personal belief to be a suicide bomber. Blowing yourself to pieces for what you believe in , in my opinion is admirable.
> 
> > The targeting of innocent civilians is unacceptable but attacks on military personnel is fair game.


It's fvcking disgusting and stupid and further proof of the brainwashing this horrible version of the muslim religion is producing.

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## spywizard

> Im suprised noone posted an article on this yet...
> 
> 
> 
> In my own view, it seems like Iran is provoking the USA to create tensions, but on the other hand is playing it off as the USA creating propaganda. Making USA look like the bad guy while Iran is the innocent person.



Haven't they seem this old photo???

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## Glow2004

> Are you seriously referencing a youtube video as a reliable source of information! LMFAO ! 
> 
> I can't watch it anyway on my PC but here's a newsflash. *No shred of evidence Iran is enriching Uranium, making all assumptions of a nuclear threat void*


you're having a ****ing laugh, mate!

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## Glow2004

> Haven't they seem this old photo???


Well that could be the case

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## Glow2004

> BTW, it must take unbelievable courage / personal belief to be a suicide bomber. Blowing yourself to pieces for what you believe in , in my opinion is admirable.
> 
> > The targeting of innocent civilians is unacceptable but attacks on military personnel is fair game.


what kind of argument is that?

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## sam_sneed

> A decentenat of the people who once controlled a land. 
> I guess I should give my house to the Native American's.
> 
> Make no mystake, they hate the Jewish people and it's an assertion of power of the Muslim religion.
> 
> We don't belong fighting Iran or defending the Jews imo. The whole thing is screwed up by oil. People have been killing themselves over that land for thousands of years. Getting involved in a holy war is the best excuse we can give them to perpetuate hate for America.
> 
> The whole region is so f-ed up, if there is no outside stabilizing force, they'll all blow each other up. Oil keeps America there. 
> 
> It's my understanding, the Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule. Many Christians died for Jerusalem.


Well the Native American has virtually been wiped from the earth by America and it's an issue that like many others regarding America is brushed under the carpet. I don't agree with hatred of Jews at all i hope your not asserting that i do, i simply question the legitimacy of the state of Israel which was created from former British Palestine at Britain's discretion without the consultation of Muslims/Arabs the rightful owners of the land prior to British(Palestine + Lebanon) and French (Syria) imperialism in the area. I agree that without some sort of sustainable peace the region will descend into war as throughout history it always has. The first ever recorded military battle was fought in this area (Egypt/Hittites at Kadesh) and is likely to remain a region of conflict as long as religious tension prevails. Thats why i would advocate an independent Jerusalem free from the sovereingty of any state governed both by Muslims, Christians and Jews.

> About the Crusades, The Pope declared help from European rulers to recapture Jerusalem yes correct but the political reality was rather different. An excuse for expansionism, jealousy of Muslim culture/power (The Umayyad Caliphate was the preodminant world power at the time). The fourth (there were 9 in total) crusade is evidence of this as Europeans actually attacked Constantinople which was a traditional ally of Christianity as part of the Byzantine Empire totally ignoring the aim of regaining Jerusalem just using the crusades as an excuse for plunder. Many Christians massacred Jews thorughout the Crusades particularly the first and had loyalty to their Kings not their religion.

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## sam_sneed

> you're having a ****ing laugh, mate!


No i'm not please find some evidence and show me if your correct i will admit so. But youtube and posting pictures proves nothing.

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## sam_sneed

> what kind of argument is that?


It's called dying for something you believe in. Military personnel aren't civilians and are engaged in a war so their fair targets.

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## Glow2004

> Well the Native American has virtually been wiped from the earth by America and it's an issue that like many others regarding America is brushed under the carpet. I don't agree with hatred of Jews at all i hope your not asserting that i do, i simply question the legitimacy of the state of Israel which was created from former British Palestine at Britain's discretion without the consultation of Muslims/Arabs the rightful owners of the land prior to British(Palestine + Lebanon) and French (Syria) imperialism in the area. I agree that without some sort of sustainable peace the region will descend into war as throughout history it always has. The first ever recorded military battle was fought in this area (Egypt/Hittites at Kadesh) and is likely to remain a region of conflict as long as religious tension prevails. Thats why i would advocate an independent Jerusalem free from the sovereingty of any state governed both by Muslims, Christians and Jews.
> 
> > About the Crusades, The Pope declared help from European rulers to recapture Jerusalem yes correct but the political reality was rather different. An excuse for expansionism, jealousy of Muslim culture/power (The Umayyad Caliphate was the preodminant world power at the time). The fourth (there were 9 in total) crusade is evidence of this as Europeans actually attacked Constantinople which was a traditional ally of Christianity as part of the Byzantine Empire totally ignoring the aim of regaining Jerusalem just using the crusades as an excuse for plunder. Many Christians massacred Jews thorughout the Crusades particularly the first and had loyalty to their Kings not their religion.



If anyone here are COWARDS it is those like you preaching how we should appease and kowtow to political correctness and not defend our cities against a possible nuclear strike from those that have threated us with using them. Be they large countries or little ones the threat with nukes is now very real. Cowards are those here that want to turn a blind eye to what is happening and not take action to but a stop to it. 

I don't live in fear I live in the real world. I guess you don't remember 9/11 or the hundreds of other terrorist attacks being committed in the world against us by radical muslims? 
Not withstanding your opinion and comment the analogy holds, your kind wants to stick their head in the sand while Iran builds a nuclear bomb and pretend it isn't happening. 
Just like Germany did when the world KNEW they were rearming and chose to hope they would just use them for parades I guess? 

So sure the US has the mightest army in the world that didn't stop 9/11 did it? That didn't stop the bombings of embassies throughout the world or the USS Cole, did it? 
Now with WMD the threat takes on a whole new level of seriousness, doesn't it? 

Or do you suggest we once again sit back and wait until they hide a nuke in a shipping container and detonate it in one of our cities? Is that your definition of honor? 
Sit around and wait for a known and admitted enemy that has declared war on the world, has threatened to use WMD if they get their hands on them (remember Iran is a supplier of muslim terrorists) and has publically stated he believes in a coming apocalypse. 

This is how you want to live? Bury your head in the sand (like the world did in the 1930's) and hope that when Iran gets nukes they agree to play nice with them? 

Maybe you don't live in a big city so you don't care? Is that it? 
I guess millions of innocent lives are not important enough to protect from a maniacal madman that is working towards obtaining nuclear weapons? 

As for the Iran/Iraq war (which is not forgotten) isn't it interesting that although Iraq started it, it was Iran that was on the offensive for much of the later part of the war. Iraq used poison gas (A WMD by the way), I wonder what Iran would have done had they nukes at that time? 
Any guesses? 

This isn't a game Free, these people are religious fanatic's that will stop at nothing to change the world in the name of (radical) Islam. 
The threat (not fear) is real and needs to be addressed. I find it sad that people here can't see evil for what it is unless it is explicitly spelled out for them. 
Once again the analogy of Hilter applies, he gave militant speeches and yet the rest of the world chose not to believe him. HELLO, do you not learn anything from history?????

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## thegodfather

> If anyone here are COWARDS it is those like you preaching how we should appease and kowtow to political correctness and not defend our cities against a possible nuclear strike from those that have threated us with using them. Be they large countries or little ones the threat with nukes is now very real. Cowards are those here that want to turn a blind eye to what is happening and not take action to but a stop to it. 
> 
> I don't live in fear I live in the real world. I guess you don't remember 9/11 or the hundreds of other terrorist attacks being committed in the world against us by radical muslims? 
> Not withstanding your opinion and comment the analogy holds, your kind wants to stick their head in the sand while Iran builds a nuclear bomb and pretend it isn't happening. 
> Just like Germany did when the world KNEW they were rearming and chose to hope they would just use them for parades I guess? 
> 
> *Way to leave out that it's a "terrorist" problem that WE created by our MEDDLING IN THEIR AFFAIRS! If you would pull your head out of your ass and actually listen to the grievances of the people who attakced us, maybe you would have a more complete understanding of the political atmosphere and not the one which is spoon fed to you by your Command or the propagandized rhetoric spoon fed to you by the BBC or Fox News Network. 
> 
> Osama Bin Laden made it clear why he attacked us. We have bases on their holy land in Saudi Arabia, we continually meddle in their affairs, and we sponsor the state of Israel which commits THOUSANDS of human rights violations against the Palestinian peoples! 
> ...


My replies to your baseless warmongering fearmongerng bullshit are in *Bold* above...

----------


## Glow2004

> My replies to your baseless warmongering fearmongerng bullshit are in *Bold* above...


You'd better start thinking about the fact that we all live in one planet
(you really should do some research)
LOOK 
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You sound like a bleeding heart liberal.

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## Glow2004

Well with weapons mark coming from Iran.
Explosives coming from Iran.
Training for the terrorists being done in Iran.

....................................
CYA It's 00:33

----------


## Glow2004

We Will Win!!!

----------


## Nicotine

i say we should install hidden cameras, give em unlim weapons, and air it as a reality show  :Big Grin:

----------


## Odpierdol_sie!

> i say we should install hidden cameras, give em unlim weapons, and air it as a reality show


The US has already done that... only basking in the glory and the sheer brilliance of giving weapons and training to them, they forgot to install the CCTV cameras.... D'oh!!!!!

----------


## Fat Guy

[QUOTE=Kratos;4076250]


> WOW for once you and I agreeQUOTE]
> 
> Finding yourself in agreement with a conservative? How does it feel to be right? (pun intended)


Even a broken watch is right twice a day  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Panzerfaust

> It's my opinion that we should let the Muslims and the Jews fight it out like they have done for thousands of years. Far too much religious passion over this peice of land. The Jewish people of this country would not be too happy though.


You mean these so called Jews who dictate policy in the American Gov't...these so called "Jews" are a displaced people who do nothing but infiltrate and destroy nations from within one by one.

Everywhere they go, there is trouble.

----------


## Panzerfaust

> Those piles of ***t kill and wound our Soldiers in Iraq and have sponsored terrorism around the globe, killing civilians from all nationalities


If Americans weren't in Iraq, they wouldn't be getting shot at now would they?

LMAO @ America invading countries and then getting pissed when American soldiers get shot and killed.

That's like you going into Burma and then are shocked when you are kidnapped and shot.

----------


## eliteforce

I don't know what the hell your talking about-
"Iran supported Nazi Germany in WW ll. The Arabs supported Germany in WW ll." 

Goto any university or high-school and find 1 history teacher that would aggree with that.

Here is a picture of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill and several others in Teheran, Iran (November 29, 1943). 

http://history1900s.about.com/librar...s/blyfdr98.htm






> Are you serious? Iran supported Nazi Germany in WW ll. The Arabs supported Germany in WW ll. They were siding with the Nazi's who were killing US
> "bring it on" lets nuke em

----------


## RangersLTW

Put a walmart and mcdonalds over there. Let them get fat and broke while they are thinking they are getting good deals. I think we should get our soldiers off there land and if we get attacked.........no more babysitting........just pure domination.

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## sam_sneed

> We Will Win!!!


LOL!! This guy is a complete nutjob  :LOL:

----------


## Glow2004

> I don't know what the hell your talking about-
> "Iran supported Nazi Germany in WW ll. The Arabs supported Germany in WW ll." 
> 
> Goto any university or high-school and find 1 history teacher that would aggree with that.
> 
> Here is a picture of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill and several others in Teheran, Iran (November 29, 1943). 
> 
> http://history1900s.about.com/librar...s/blyfdr98.htm


what u on about man

----------


## Glow2004

> LOL!! This guy is a complete nutjob


Before you take your final step get to know your sex partner

----------


## Glow2004

> I don't know what the hell your talking about-
> "Iran supported Nazi Germany in WW ll. The Arabs supported Germany in WW ll." 
> 
> Goto any university or high-school and find 1 history teacher that would aggree with that.
> 
> Here is a picture of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill and several others in Teheran, Iran (November 29, 1943). 
> 
> http://history1900s.about.com/librar...s/blyfdr98.htm


The Aryan League (also National Socialist Aryan League) is an Iranian Neo-Nazi political party. It was founded by former members of the Pan-Iranist Party who left that group due to their racialist beliefs. Their stated goal is to: "To return to Iran and her Aryan people their pride & glorious legacy of six thousand years past. To reawaken and restore the ancient Aryan spiritual & cultural heritage and the total eradication of all foreign elements in the modern Iranian society. To ensure the absolute survival & advancement of the Aryan Race-Culture and the ultimate foundation of a Greater Iran."
The conservative Kayhan and Ettelaat newspapers have reported on the possibility that the NSAL and SUMKA actually originate from the Kabud Party, which was the original Nazi Party of Iran that was said to have been directly supported by Nazi Germany and later banned after the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran in 1941, but remained covertly active.
Political parties with Nazi or fascist inclinations have been banned in Iran since 1941. Since 1980, Iran has hate crime legislation which makes any type of racist political or social entities illegal.

----------


## Glow2004

> I don't know what the hell your talking about-
> "Iran supported Nazi Germany in WW ll. The Arabs supported Germany in WW ll." 
> 
> Goto any university or high-school and find 1 history teacher that would aggree with that.
> 
> Here is a picture of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill and several others in Teheran, Iran (November 29, 1943). 
> 
> http://history1900s.about.com/librar...s/blyfdr98.htm


But it was revived in 1936 was it not? Hitler also allowed Iranian's as Aryan's in his third reich did he not?

----------


## Glow2004

> If Americans weren't in Iraq, they wouldn't be getting shot at now would they?
> 
> LMAO @ America invading countries and then getting pissed when American soldiers get shot and killed.
> 
> That's like you going into Burma and then are shocked when you are kidnapped and shot.


Stupid comment.

----------


## Glow2004

If Iran wants to prepare for war with the US, they should take all their military vehicles and sell them on ebay to the highest bidder now, because they're not going to be worth much money once they're all punched full of holes, scorched, and/or disintegrated. They should also take a significant number of their soldiers and start marching them into the sea, it'll be far less messy then the cleanup that'll be required if they try to stand and fight.

Now, on the other hand, if they give every man, woman, child, dog, cat and frog a 2x4 and have them start smacking themselves in the head with them, as they did at Khomeni's funeral a while back, I'm sure they'll win, Allah be praised.

----------


## sam_sneed

> But it was revived in 1936 was it not? Hitler also allowed Iranian's as Aryan's in his third reich did he not?


 :Evil2:  I'm tired of your rascist views and false history.

Firstly, the picture shows the allied leaders in Tehran in 1943, *PROVING* Iran did not support Germany during WW2.

Secondly, what the hell are you babbling about 1936 for? And do you even know what an Aryan is ?

Aryan is an *ENGLISH* word derived from *SANSKRIT* an *ANCIENT INDO-IRANIAN LANGUAGE* This group grew to include *Romans, Germans,Celts, Slavs and Armenians* They are called *PROTO-INDO-EUROPEANS* *YOU YOURSELF ARE A DESCENDANT OF THESE PEOPLE YOU MORON*

----------


## Glow2004

> I'm tired of your rascist views and false history.
> 
> Firstly, the picture shows the allied leaders in Tehran in 1943, *PROVING* Iran did not support Germany during WW2.
> 
> Secondly, what the hell are you babbling about 1936 for? And do you even know what an Aryan is ?
> 
> Aryan is an *ENGLISH* word derived from *SANSKRIT* an *ANCIENT INDO-IRANIAN LANGUAGE* This group grew to include *Romans, Germans,Celts, Slavs and Armenians* They are called *PROTO-INDO-EUROPEANS* *YOU YOURSELF ARE A DESCENDANT OF THESE PEOPLE YOU MORON*


Good lord, who wrote this, a high school kid?

----------


## sam_sneed

> Good lord, who wrote this, a high school kid?


Nope, you need to just get your facts straight. You can't be spewing the views your are with false information.

----------


## eliteforce

There is alot of extreme-zionist invented propaganda where you can retrieve rubbish like what glow posted in post #67, it's an attempt to somhow link the Arab and Muslim world to 1930's Nazi Germany..none of it can be referenced to any real history-other than a website run by jewish settlers in the west bank.. it's a diversion from Israel's own issues of racism or aphartied or "fascism" ... fascism itself is a word that doesn't really mean anything- a reference to the nazi dictatorship that ruled Germany in the 1930-which by the way had a market economy (capitalist dictatorship), the only difference from other totalitarian govts was this obsession with the Aryan or white race, and race in general; now we have words like "islamo-facism" and femin-fascism..things that don't have anything to do with race

obviously Iranians are not "Aryans" the Germans were refering to northern european people, Germans were "Aryans" and they had "aryan cousins" like Dutch, Austrians, anglo-saxons.. on the other hand even a polish or a slav were not white enough for the Nazi's so it was pretty unlikly that they would have any tolerance for olive skinned Iranians.

----------


## Glow2004

> Nope, you need to just get your facts straight. You can't be spewing the views your are with false information.


Wow thats nearly double of the IQ of Iran's president

----------


## sam_sneed

> Wow thats nearly double of the IQ of Iran's president


Now who looks childish :LOL: 

Iran's President isn't harming you so why are you so obssesed? Once again provide a shred of evidence for your argument.

----------


## Glow2004

> Now who looks childish
> 
> Iran's President isn't harming you so why are you so obssesed?


WHAT .LOOK MR IRAN MAN GET FUKING LIFE

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## Glow2004

Irans response will be to photoshop a picture of an attack on Israel, then attempt to pass it off as real...

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## Glow2004

> Now who looks childish
> 
> Iran's President isn't harming you so why are you so obssesed? Once again provide a shred of evidence for your argument.


We are fighting the Muslim teriorists all over the world now ......LATER IRAN AND IRAQ AND AFGH!!!!....

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## sam_sneed

> obviously Iranians are not "Aryans" the Germans were refering to northern european people, Germans were "Aryans" and they had "aryan cousins" like Dutch, Austrians, anglo-saxons.. on the other hand even a polish or a slav were not white enough for the Nazi's so it was pretty unlikly that they would have any tolerance for olive skinned Iranians.


Actually bro, Iranians are Aryans. Iran means "Land of the Aryans" Read my post about the words origin.

----------


## spywizard

> My replies to your baseless warmongering fearmongerng bullshit are in *Bold* above...



Actually.. it is our business if our interest or allies are attacked, and we do and will take action, we always have, and always will. 

these types of threads are the reason we no longer have a political/religious forum.

This is a news item, not a stage for someone's isolationist thoughts and desires, i for one would support an isolationist and "containment" foreign policy, however with the fall of Russia, and the release of so much refined uranium, and uncontrolled release of information, we must not allow peasants, and thieves, and murderers that would force their will on the people of the world to go unchecked.. 

It's the bully on the playground, he must be put in check..

----------


## Glow2004

> Actually bro, Iranians are Aryans. Iran means "Land of the Aryans" Read my post about the words origin.


Relax stupid...

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## Glow2004

The bottom line is that the leaders of Iran are terrorist whack-o's that want to get their 70 virgins when they go meet their God after blowing up a bus load of Innocent school kids.

Iran wants to control the middle east, that's why they hate Israel. If Iraq becomes a democracy, its one less chance they have of total Islamic nut job rule over the region. Iran is scary

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## Glow2004

didn't think so.

----------


## thegodfather

> Actually.. it is our business if our interest or allies are attacked, and we do and will take action, we always have, and always will. 
> 
> these types of threads are the reason we no longer have a political/religious forum.
> 
> This is a news item, not a stage for someone's isolationist thoughts and desires, i for one would support an isolationist and "containment" foreign policy, however with the fall of Russia, and the release of so much refined uranium, and uncontrolled release of information, we must not allow peasants, and thieves, and murderers that would force their will on the people of the world to go unchecked.. 
> 
> It's the bully on the playground, he must be put in check..



I would have expected you of all people to know the difference between "Isolationism" and "Non-Interventionism," as they are two completely and totally different things. I am not advocating isolationism by any means. I completely support trading with other nations and talking with them in diplomatic ways. What I do not support however is US intervention in their affairs, like overthrowing elected governments via the CIA, and killing 1 million people in the name of "Democracy." Things like those have consequences for us, they usually cause us more harm than good. The CIA itself (and im referencing Congressmen Paul here) has said that our actions cause a blowback effect. In essence, when we meddle in the affairs of the middle east, we cause unforseen side effects such as coddifying the resolve fo the terrorists and expanding their support base.

How can anyone in good conscience and of sound mind actually blame these people for hating us after all the pain, suffering, and death we have caused in the region? We cannot continually intervene in their affairs, kill people, and instill OUR WILL over the will of THEIR PEOPLE and expect there to be no negative consequences.

We have been intervening in their affairs since the 1940s&50s starting with the state of Israel and overthrowing Mossadeq in Iran. These people have years and years of hatred built up for us for what we have done. This "terrorist" problem didn't happen overnight, people didnt wake up one day and decide to start committing suicide bombings for no reason. It was a continual process, and we have pushed these people to the limit, and they are tired of our shit. Being able to understand your enemy is the first step in resolving conflicts, and its a shame that not many American citizens, politicians, or leaders are very interested in trying to do this. They are evil, we are good... Thats all I hear...

----------


## thegodfather

> The bottom line is that the leaders of Iran are terrorist whack-o's that want to get their 70 virgins when they go meet their God after blowing up a bus load of Innocent school kids.
> 
> Iran wants to control the middle east, that's why they hate Israel. If Iraq becomes a *democracy,* its one less chance they have of total Islamic nut job rule over the region. Iran is scary


It sounds VERY "DEMOCRATIC" to invade a country and kill 1,000,000 people and tell them that their new government is going to be a "Democracy," doesnt it? Who are YOU to tell them what kind of government they should have in THEIR country. 

If it's the will of the Iraqi people to live under a DEMOCRACY then I fully support that effort. Unfortunately the reality is that numerous polls of the people show that they want a government which includes Islamic law into it. Now I do not support such things, but it is also not our place to interject our country's political agenda onto the will of MILLIONS of people. 


Where exactly do you get off telling millions of people what kind of government they can or cannot have? That's not very Democratic, is it?


The truth is you dont give a flying fu*k about democracy, and probably dont even know what the true definition of the word is. You're quite content to continue spewing your incoherent war rhetoric. Do you have an education any higher than high school? I doubt it, you are repeating things that you have heard from the propagandized news networks and trying to pass them off as fact.

----------


## Glow2004

> It sounds VERY "DEMOCRATIC" to invade a country and kill 1,000,000 people and tell them that their new government is going to be a "Democracy," doesnt it? Who are YOU to tell them what kind of government they should have in THEIR country. 
> 
> If it's the will of the Iraqi people to live under a DEMOCRACY then I fully support that effort. Unfortunately the reality is that numerous polls of the people show that they want a government which includes Islamic law into it. Now I do not support such things, but it is also not our place to interject our country's political agenda onto the will of MILLIONS of people. 
> 
> 
> Where exactly do you get off telling millions of people what kind of government they can or cannot have? That's not very Democratic, is it?
> 
> 
> The truth is you dont give a flying fu*k about democracy, and probably dont even know what the true definition of the word is. You're quite content to continue spewing your incoherent war rhetoric. Do you have an education any higher than high school? I doubt it, you are repeating things that you have heard from the propagandized news networks and trying to pass them off as fact.


If you are upset about this, you need to get a ****ing life....

I spent years as a contractor PMC (Private Military Contractor) in Iraq and Afghanistan elsewhere....

----------


## IamtheChitt

IMO, the US is only in the middle east to protect Americans. We are doing this for our own interests, and that is to make sure that we have an oil supply. If the Middle East and Venezuela would stop supplying oil to the U.S., we would be crippled. We can not sustain our dependence on oil by what we produce in this country, especially since we can not drill in 80% of our land and coastal waters.

Do you really think we are fighting for independence of foreign nations or looking for nuclear weapons? What we have done is established our forces in an area where we can defend ourselves against unstable countries who have the power to devastate one of the most powerful nations in the world.

And in a time of conflict, of course China would side with Iran. They need that oil as much as we do. As demand rises, so will the tensions in the middle east.

I can't say that I agree 100% with the war, but I understand that it is a necessity to protect ourselves from disaster.

----------


## thegodfather

> If you are upset about this, you need to get a ****ing life....
> 
> I spent years as a contractor PMC (Private Military Contractor) in Iraq and Afghanistan elsewhere....


This has what to do with refuting the points that I made? If you want to make a substantial argument for the war then do so, otherwise making pointless statements about your time in Iraq and Afghanistan means absolutely nothing to me. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and it seems as if you want me to concede some amount of credit to your insane ramblings because you have spent time in the region. 

It's really simple, either you're capable of putting together sentences and refuting some of the things I have said, or you're obviously not and can only speak half truthes and nonsense.

----------


## Glow2004

> This has what to do with refuting the points that I made? If you want to make a substantial argument for the war then do so, otherwise making pointless statements about your time in Iraq and Afghanistan means absolutely nothing to me. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and it seems as if you want me to concede some amount of credit to your insane ramblings because you have spent time in the region. 
> 
> It's really simple, either you're capable of putting together sentences and refuting some of the things I have said, or you're obviously not and can only speak half truthes and nonsense.

----------


## inheritmylife

> This has what to do with refuting the points that I made? If you want to make a substantial argument for the war then do so, otherwise making pointless statements about your time in Iraq and Afghanistan means absolutely nothing to me. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and it seems as if you want me to concede some amount of credit to your insane ramblings because you have spent time in the region. 
> 
> It's really simple, either you're capable of putting together sentences and refuting some of the things I have said, or you're obviously not and can only speak half truthes and nonsense.


You're wasting your time on this guy.

----------


## sam_sneed

> You're wasting your time on this guy.


True. Wish i had realised it last night.

----------


## Glow2004

> True. Wish i had realised it last night.


Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP

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## gixxerboy1

> Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP Vote BNP


your one line little comments shows you know abslolutly nothing about the topic on hand

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## thegodfather

Glows comments aren't really suprising... Imperialism is nothing new to the English. They have killed and plundered foreign lands for a thousand years... You must be really enthusiastic about the Police state that England has become. Getting arrested for having you're trashcan lids not shut completely, CCTV on every corner, not allowed to defend yourself or own weapons. I mean shit, if England is the model of a "FREE" and DEMOCRATIC society, its no wonder the Iraqi people are blowing themselves up to avoid that kind of tyranny. 


By the way, while I agree with some aspects that the BNP represents, it is by all accounts of anyone in the political world who matters, a highly racist organization. You've shown your true colors...

----------


## Glow2004

> Glows comments aren't really suprising... Imperialism is nothing new to the English. They have killed and plundered foreign lands for a thousand years... You must be really enthusiastic about the Police state that England has become. Getting arrested for having you're trashcan lids not shut completely, CCTV on every corner, not allowed to defend yourself or own weapons. I mean shit, if England is the model of a "FREE" and DEMOCRATIC society, its no wonder the Iraqi people are blowing themselves up to avoid that kind of tyranny. 
> 
> 
> By the way, while I agree with some aspects that the BNP represents, it is by all accounts of anyone in the political world who matters, a highly racist organization. You've shown your true colors...


The argument on letting in unskilled and semi-skilled workers is the same as that employed by the Australian government for decades. No one has called them racist. Recently, when the Australian government expressed the view that immigrants had a duty to assimilate to Australian culture, rather than the other way around, it was not condemned to any great extent. Indeed, Muslim leaders in Australia backed the government fully on that issue. It seems the UK has something to learn from Australia.

Finally, here are three things to consider:
The BNP has a wide range of policies
No voter agrees with all of any party's policies
The main parties are so far out of touch with working people.

voting BNP (perhaps in desperation) does not make one a racist.

----------


## thegodfather

You failed to address the first part of my post... Why do you believe the Iraqi people should be accepting of Democracy from the US and UK if England is setting such a horrible example of a "Democracy." the UK is a police state, it is almost unarguable fact at this point. What freedom loving person would ever want to live in such a place? You're government has outlawed basic unalienable human rights, like the right to bear arms. England is a perfect example of how big government spins out of control when the populace is disarmed and has no measure of last resort against a tyrannical government. 

Are you suprised that the millions of Iraqi people are not jumping at the chance to have UK style Democracy? They have essentially traded one tyrant for another!

----------


## Glow2004

> You failed to address the first part of my post... Why do you believe the Iraqi people should be accepting of Democracy from the US and UK if England is setting such a horrible example of a "Democracy." the UK is a police state, it is almost unarguable fact at this point. What freedom loving person would ever want to live in such a place? You're government has outlawed basic unalienable human rights, like the right to bear arms. England is a perfect example of how big government spins out of control when the populace is disarmed and has no measure of last resort against a tyrannical government. 
> 
> Are you suprised that the millions of Iraqi people are not jumping at the chance to have UK style Democracy? They have essentially traded one tyrant for another!


There is no such thing as democracy in the UK.

Once every four or five years we get one vote to elect one MP. The party he (the masculine shall imply the feminine for the purposes of this rant blahblahblah) represents will have a manifesto designed to acheive one thing and one thing only - sucker as many of us as possible to vote for him.

----------


## sam_sneed

There's no such thing as true democracy anywhere in the world its a complete myth. How can there be freedom to choose an elected representative when there are realistically only two or three poltical parties who can win an election.

Plus the principles of democracy don't work in modern society. 
> All members of society do not have equal access to power
> Do not always enjoy universally recognised freedoms especially in the current climate where civil liberties are being eroded.

When Greeks coined the idea of 'democracy' it was different to what we see now.

----------


## Glow2004

> There's no such thing as true democracy anywhere in the world its a complete myth. How can there be freedom to choose an elected representative when there are realistically only two or three poltical parties who can win an election.
> 
> Plus the principles of democracy don't work in modern society. 
> > All members of society do not have equal access to power
> > Do not always enjoy universally recognised freedoms especially in the current climate where civil liberties are being eroded.
> 
> When Greeks coined the idea of 'democracy' it was different to what we see now.


In theory we are a democracy as the people vote their MPs into Parliament and the MPS make the laws. 

The Queen is Titular Head of State but she does not make laws - she gives the power to Parliament to do that. 

Thats basically a democracy.

We don't have a "Constitution" like America has, we just have our rights under the Law. I don't see it makes a difference really. We know what our rights are we don't need a document listing them.

Sadly Blair is an arsehole who takes no notice of what the British people think but then again Bush is no different in America.

----------


## thegodfather

> In theory we are a democracy as the people vote their MPs into Parliament and the MPS make the laws. 
> 
> The Queen is Titular Head of State but she does not make laws - she gives the power to Parliament to do that. 
> 
> Thats basically a democracy.
> 
> We don't have a "Constitution" like America has, we just have our rights under the Law. I don't see it makes a difference really. We know what our rights are we don't need a document listing them.
> 
> Sadly Blair is an arsehole who takes no notice of what the British people think but then again Bush is no different in America.



If all of this is true, then how do you have the BALLS to expect the Iraqi people to welcome this pathetic form of government in thier land as well? The majority of them lived much safer under Saddam Hussein and theres 1 million people who would still be alive. Additionally, there was no evidence then or NOW that shows ANY LINK what so ever between Iraq/Saddam and "Terrorists." 

Saudi Arabia produces more terrorists than any other country in the region and they are our "allie." Those are FACTS, things which you tend to distort or outright IGNORE.

----------


## sam_sneed

> Sadly Blair is an arsehole


Yet hes a genius compared to Brown.  :LOL:

----------


## sam_sneed

> The majority of them lived much safer under Saddam Hussein 
> 
> Saudi Arabia produces more terrorists than any other country in the region and they are our "allie." Those are FACTS, things which you tend to distort or outright IGNORE.


> He was still a tyrant who massacred many Kurds.

> Agree with the 2nd point. Pakistan is known for having terrorist training camps another 'Ally'

----------


## Glow2004

No, its impossible to rule through monarchy anymore. Technology and land area does not allow a monarchy to rule correctly anymore. The base of Iraqi civilians are not educated enough to except rule under person. Exactly why they went to a dictatorship because Saddam ruled under the monarchy and it turned to a dictatorship.

----------


## Panzerfaust

> Actually.. it is our business if our interest or allies are attacked, and we do and will take action, we always have, and always will. 
> 
> these types of threads are the reason we no longer have a political/religious forum.
> 
> This is a news item, not a stage for someone's isolationist thoughts and desires, i for one would support an isolationist and "containment" foreign policy, however with the fall of Russia, and the release of so much refined uranium, and uncontrolled release of information, we must not allow peasants, and thieves, and murderers that would force their will on the people of the world to go unchecked.. 
> 
> *It's the bully on the playground, he must be put in check*..



Ok, so who is going to put the USA in check then?

----------


## eliteforce

Whatever historical context you are using.....my point was that the Nazi's did not consider Iranians to be the 'Aryan's' they were talking about. They meant predominently blond/blue eyed n. european people, but NOT slavs(ie russians, czecks, slovaks, poles) .. this they considered the 'master race' there is no way in hell they considered a Czeck _inferior_ to an Iranian..we can see what Iranians look like on TV, olive skined blackhaired people, similar to Arabs.. and that was in retort to this silly extreme-zionist notion that there is somehow a link between 1930's Nazism and the Arab-muslim world.

It's easy for people like glow to demagog the entire region and then say 'nukeem' in place of any real political/military strategy - real intelligent, obviously nuking is not an option because it almost certainly will mean a nuclear retaliation-and people who think that way are nazi creeps anyways, a conventional strike on Iran fails to stop Irans nuclear program because they cannot find hidden sites; and it results in Iranian missile barrages-making the strike not worth it.






> Actually bro, Iranians are Aryans. Iran means "Land of the Aryans" Read my post about the words origin.

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## Glow2004

> Whatever historical context you are using.....my point was that the Nazi's did not consider Iranians to be the 'Aryan's' they were talking about. They meant predominently blond/blue eyed n. european people, but NOT slavs(ie russians, czecks, slovaks, poles) .. this they considered the 'master race' there is no way in hell they considered a Czeck _inferior_ to an Iranian..we can see what Iranians look like on TV, olive skined blackhaired people, similar to Arabs.. and that was in retort to this silly extreme-zionist notion that there is somehow a link between 1930's Nazism and the Arab-muslim world.
> 
> It's easy for people like glow to demagog the entire region and then say 'nukeem' in place of any real political/military strategy - real intelligent, obviously nuking is not an option because it almost certainly will mean a nuclear retaliation-and people who think that way are nazi creeps anyways, a conventional strike on Iran fails to stop Irans nuclear program because they cannot find hidden sites; and it results in Iranian missile barrages-making the strike not worth it.


lolol.olololololo,.ololo,lolololol

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## sam_sneed

> Whatever historical context you are using.....my point was that the Nazi's did not consider Iranians to be the 'Aryan's' they were talking about. They meant predominently blond/blue eyed n. european people, but NOT slavs(ie russians, czecks, slovaks, poles) .. this they considered the 'master race' there is no way in hell they considered a Czeck _inferior_ to an Iranian..we can see what Iranians look like on TV, olive skined blackhaired people, similar to Arabs.. and that was in retort to this silly extreme-zionist notion that there is somehow a link between 1930's Nazism and the Arab-muslim world.


They did consider them Aryan's yes blonde hair and blue eyes.
Your generalising what Iranians look like there are many people of Assyrian race who live there i think thats what you mean by olive skinned.
You clearly don't know much depth about various race's here's an article though to explain a bit.

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/ar...le_origins.php

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## eliteforce

dude, generalizing, whatever!?? I have seen Iranians in person and I have seen them on TV, that article goes on and on-it's irrelevant it doesn't matter where everyone came from 6000 years ago-they came down from the caucasis or whereever .. there is no-way that Iranians could be considered the "same race" as Germans, Austrians, Dutch, Anglo Saxons- especially circa 1930! If you took a sample of 1000 Iranians maybe there is 1 that is blue eyed and blond, same with Palestinians-I have seen a blond blue eyed palestinian(not the result of 1 white parent, just recessive genes) The Nazis did not consider Iranians to be 'their people' or that they were the same race .. like I said they didn't even consider a slav or a czech to be their people. It was just their immediate gene pool that they considered "master race" they were not looking at it in the context of that article.

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## sam_sneed

> dude, generalizing, whatever!?? I have seen Iranians in person and I have seen them on TV, that article goes on and on-it's irrelevant it doesn't matter where everyone came from 6000 years ago-they came down from the caucasis or whereever .. there is no-way that Iranians could be considered the "same race" as Germans, Austrians, Dutch, Anglo Saxons- especially circa 1930! If you took a sample of 1000 Iranians maybe there is 1 that is blue eyed and blond, same with Palestinians-I have seen a blond blue eyed palestinian(not the result of 1 white parent, just recessive genes) The Nazis did not consider Iranians to be 'their people' or that they were the same race .. like I said they didn't even consider a slav or a czech to be their people. It was just their immediate gene pool that they considered "master race" they were not looking at it in the context of that article.


> For a start, Anglo-Saxons are Germanic peoples by race and are not seperate, also Slavs are a different race to Germans. You refer to Austrians and Dutch people which has no relevance to anything when dicussing race as they are nationalities. (Note: I prefer the term ethnicity referring to cultural,historical and linguistic similarities rather than appearance in regards to race as its simply a socially constructed term which in science means very little and is also extremely subjective which is why the Nazi's were able to manipulate it to their will.) Here's an excerpt from an article explaining this 

_"Historical research has shown that the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them. Today scholars in many fields argue that "race" as it is understood in the United States of America was a social mechanism invented during the 18th century to refer to those populations brought together in colonial America: the English and other European settlers, the conquered Indian peoples, and those peoples of Africa brought in to provide slave labor. 

From its inception, this modern concept of "race" was modeled after an ancient theorem of the Great Chain of Being, which posited natural categories on a hierarchy established by God or nature. Thus "race" was a mode of classification linked specifically to peoples in the colonial situation. It subsumed a growing ideology of inequality devised to rationalize European attitudes and treatment of the conquered and enslaved peoples. Proponents of slavery in particular during the 19th century used "race" to justify the retention of slavery. The ideology magnified the differences among Europeans, Africans, and Indians, established a rigid hierarchy of socially exclusive categories underscored and bolstered unequal rank and status differences, and provided the rationalization that the inequality was natural or God-given. The different physical traits of African-Americans and Indians became markers or symbols of their status differences. 

As they were constructing US society, leaders among European-Americans fabricated the cultural/behavioral characteristics associated with each "race," linking superior traits with Europeans and negative and inferior ones to blacks and Indians. Numerous arbitrary and fictitious beliefs about the different peoples were institutionalized and deeply embedded in American thought."_

From the American Anthropological Association. www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

> Here's the important part of what i posted earlier.

_"As a matter of fact, many Western historians have declined to accept the politicized version of history, admitting that Iran was the origin of the Aryan race. 

Hegel writes in his book The Philosophy of history: "The principle of ********* begins with the history of Iran". Another prominent orientologist says that: A large part of our cultural and material legacy was unveiled in southwestern Asia the center of which was Iran." Petri, in a famous speech, said that "When Egypt had only just begun the art of pottery, the people of Susa (in Iran) were painting beautiful pictures on ceramics." this shows that the Iranian civilization was 3,000 years ahead of that of Egypt, dating back at least to 12,000 years ago. In other words, when Central Asia was totally buried under thick layers of ice, Iranians were creating pictures on earthenware, which indicates their art and creativity. 

Considering the existence of this 12,000 years-old civilization in Iran, would it not be unlikely that 6,000 years ago, a group of people spontaneously crossed the ice covered Siberian lands, suddenly wiping such a civilization off the earth. The word Aryan has roots in world that Iranians called themselves by Ayria, meaning free, noble and steady. The world Iran is derived from this very root, having been transformed from to Ayran Iran, meaning the land of the Aryans. This is the most ancient term applied to the Iranian Plateau, and such a term has never been detected anywhere else in the world, e.g. Europe or Turkistan. 

The myth of Aryan's migration to Iran implies that a people have come to Iran from a remote land, giving their name to an already inhabited land which had no name, and that no trace of their name has been remained in their name has been remained in their original homeland. In historical records, Central Asia has been mentioned as the land of Sakas, Masagets, Touran, Soghd, Kharazm, Khiveh, and Turkistan, none of which words has any relation to the word Aryan. 

Paleontology is one of the sciences that confirm the formation of the white race in Ian. The Homo sapiens evolved from its Neanderthal ancestors in a 30,000- year process between 50,000 to 20,000 years ago. In the Hutu and Kamarband caves near Behshahr, Iran, bones of men from different historical periods have been found, showing that a kind of human race has continuously dwelled in this area and evolved, meaning that there has been no migration."_ 

> Clearly, you can see Aryans originated in Iran, however there are two different theories on migration of Aryans and the Nazi's embraced the theory that migration did occur but this was to justify their own view.

> Now to prove the Nazi's did believe they were derived from Indo-Iranians there is a book written by Alfred Rosenberg "The Myth of the 20th Century" which was the secondary Nazi text behind 'Mein Kampf'. Here's the excerpt from Chapter 1 

_"These migration periods [of Aryans]-- the legendary march of the Atlanteans across north Africa, Persia and India, followed by the Dorians, Macedonians, and Italic tribes; the diffusion of the Germanic folkish migration -- culminated in the colonising of the world by the Germanic west.

When the first great Nordic wave rolled over the high mountains into India, it had already passed through many hostile races. Instinctively, as it were, the Indoaryans separated themselves from the dark alien peoples they encountered"
_

> Now this is highly ideologically charged nonsense but it shows that the Nazi's did believe in Eastern Aryans not just Nordic peoples. (Note : when Rosenberg was referring to Indians he meant Indo-Iranians)

>Way  :2offtopic:  but interesting to know.

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## Kratos

> > 
> Paleontology is one of the sciences that confirm the formation of the white race in Ian. *The Homo sapiens evolved from its Neanderthal ancestors* in a 30,000- year process between 50,000 to 20,000 years ago. In the Hutu and Kamarband caves near Behshahr, Iran, bones of men from different historical periods have been found, showing that a kind of human race has continuously dwelled in this area and evolved, meaning that there has been no migration." [/I]
> 
> > Clearly, you can see Aryans originated in Iran, however there are two different theories on migration of Aryans and the Nazi's embraced the theory that migration did occur but this was to justify their own view.
> 
> .



Last I checked Homo-sapians evolved from Homo-erectus. Evidence from mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA sequencing indicates that little or no gene flow occurred between Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens, and, therefore, the two were separate species.

Yeah, it is way off topic. Umm, I can't even find any relivence to the thread if one tribe maybe walked across a land bridge once upon a time how it relates to modern politics.

But since you are trying to emerge as the smart guy in this thread by throwing out stuff so boaring I don't like reading it...What's your opinion on a soloution for Iran? I haven't heard your opinion on this yet, I'll admit I don't have a good one either, but I don't think we belong at war with these people. What can we do to leave the Middle-East stable, not disrupt the flow of oil, and not perpetuate terrorism and hatred, all while not leaving everthing on the verge of war and chaos?

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## sam_sneed

> Last I checked Homo-sapians evolved from Homo-erectus. Evidence from mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA sequencing indicates that little or no gene flow occurred between Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens, and, therefore, the two were separate species.
> 
> Yeah, it is way off topic. Umm, I can't even find any relivence to the thread if one tribe maybe walked across a land bridge once upon a time how it relates to modern politics.
> 
> But since you are trying to emerge as the smart guy in this thread by throwing out stuff so boaring I don't like reading it...What's your opinion on a soloution for Iran? I haven't heard your opinion on this yet, I'll admit I don't have a good one either, but I don't think we belong at war with these people. What can we do to leave the Middle-East stable, not disrupt the flow of oil, and not perpetuate terrorism and hatred, all while not leaving everthing on the verge of war and chaos?


> Yeah your rite there i think the article went a bit off with that sentence it should have stuck to the finding of humans in Iran. I think what it meant was homo-sapiens (did evolve from homo-erectus) displaced homo-neanderthalis and other species derived from homo-erectus. It's all to do with the RAO theory which is even further off topic lol. Personally, i dont find it boring you have to understand the past to understand now otherwise you end up misinformed as many seem to be.

> It's difficult to say what would be successful. IMO making Jerusalem a free city similar to the Vatican would help.(for reasons i put in a previous post) 

> There are two main problems to me and that is firstly the map then the balance of power. I think the whole map of the area needs to be redrawn obviously to which both sides must agree (Israel - Palestine i mean this is the root of the whole problem, never mind Iran this is what is fuelling everything.)
http://religion-cults.com/peace/israel-palestine-8.gif
The map shows how ridiculous the situation is. If a Palestinian wants to travel to another part of his country he has to go through Israel and all the checkpoints. Israel has to back down from its oppressive stance if it wants to achieve anything there wont be an agreement with the current carrot and stick methods. Palestine on the other hand obviously has to recognise Israel as a state and drop all intentions of wiping Israel off the map.

>The Muslim countries surrounding Israel are vastly beneath the economic and especially military capabilities of Israel so things need to be more equal. As Muslims feel threatened/vengeful but also have little opportunity to better themselves. Also, America and the UK must pullout completely but not politically.

>Anyways, i was thinking of starting a history thread for the nerds lol! dont know if i would be allowed to do this but it would definitely look at less 'charged' issues than this as people get too carried away (myself included) and probably just look to dispel popular myths and 'bad' history in general.

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## Kratos

I like history, I was just busting your balls, and you have a good grasp on how complicated things are over there. Hatred runs so deep not just for Americans but bordering counties and religious sub groups, it's tough to get anything done also. North Korea is more of a treat to us than Iran for sure, but the problems in the Middle East are bound to us by energy and the need for oil. One thing I know about Jews, they arn't giving up control of Jerusalem. When the oil gets scarce the US and the UK will leave, I don't think that will be more than a decade or two.

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## sam_sneed

> I like history, I was just busting your balls, and you have a good grasp on how complicated things are over there. Hatred runs so deep not just for Americans but bordering counties and religious sub groups, it's tough to get anything done also. North Korea is more of a treat to us than Iran for sure, but the problems in the Middle East are bound to us by energy and the need for oil. One thing I know about Jews, they arn't giving up control of Jerusalem. When the oil gets scarce the US and the UK will leave, I don't think that will be more than a decade or two.


Yeah i have to satisfy my innner nerd somehow.  :LOL: 
>I had to do an assignment on the Middle East this year 8000 words it was, so i know bit but its a huge topic and will be complicated to solve. 
> I'm not advising they give it up i think it could be the Capital of Israel, just an internationally free city it's only the third most important city for Muslims (behind Mecca + Medina) so aslong as they have access and Christians also.
>Well im not American so i dont believe they should be there at all. And North Korea is on its a*s if it wasnt for China propping it up it would have gone thirty odd years ago.
> What you think about a history thread will this be allowed? i dont want to get banned!

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