# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS > EDUCATIONAL THREADS >  deca gyno

## brutis

I was just wondering about gyno caused by deca . Is it true that no anti-e's will help to reduce gyno while using deca?? A friend of mine told me that deca causes gyno through progesterone conversion and not estrogen conversion, is this true, and if so do anti-e's actually help or not?? I'm only on 400mg of deca/week for 8 weeks and 250mg of sus for 5 weeks. It's my first cycle so I didn't want to start real big, do I even have to worry about gyno with 400mg/week?

Peace

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## PaPaPumP

The only way to completely eliminate deca induced gyno is getting the abortion pill. That will be very hard to get, as you are obviously not pregnant. But winny does very well in minimizing estrogen build up from Deca. But with that low a dose, you shouldn't have to worry. But maybe get yourself some Winny to be on the safe side. :Wink:  

P :Big Grin:

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## brutis

If I did get winny, when would I use it in my cycle and how much would I need. And one more question, a buddy of mine did a deca cycle and used chrysin during it, and he didn't get gyno at all. Was he just lucky or does chyrisin actually help reduce estrogen levels.

Thanks 
Peace

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## JRob

In your cycle you may want to run the deca for 8 weeks and the sus for 10. There was a post that you should look at on here about half life of steroids in your system, it was very informative and you really should read it. It tells you about taking a test for a little while after you stop the deca to keep your gains or something along that line. In my cycle of the same as, I ran it like this: weeks 1-8 deca 400, weeks 1-10 sus 500mg and weeks 6-10 winstrol 50mg ed. Clomid was started 3 weeks after the last sus injection. I kept most of the gains and strength. As far as the gyno I am not sure but I think arimidex is supposed to help with that or provirion. But at the dose you are at the winny should be enough. I am still an amature at this game though so see what other people tell you as well.

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## Mike

Deca gyno is caused by progesterone - not estrogen - and airmidex or proviron wont help (nor will liquidex of tamoxifen for that matter)

RU-486 as well as certain hormone therapies that are used for trating breast cancer in women and post hysterectomies are the only "cures" - winny will help prevent it - run winny at 50mg/day for 4wks during or just after your deca and you will be fine - stop your deca a couple weeks before your test (that means run sus for 10wks not 5, yup that means buying more, and do deca wks 1-8)

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## crackerlinebacker

Arimidex is an anti-aromatase and has been shown to work. Im now convinced that progesterone can't be produced in the body since its not a natural hormone within our system. So I've changed my thinking on that one as well. Hard to find good studies now a days. Sure makes it hard. But hell..least the lifting is the easy part.

BigC

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## Mike

Cracker - can you show me the study you are refering to where airmidex has been shown to work against progesterone related gyno?

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## crackerlinebacker

Im not so sure anymore that progesterone can be manufactured in our bodies. But we do know that arimidex is an anti-aromatse, or aromatase inhibitor.

BigC

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## Mike

When airmidex is taken it attaches to the aromatase and blocks the activity of the aromatase enzyme that changes androgens to estrogen. Thus airmidex stops the production of estrogen - it lowers the amount of estrogen in your body and keeps it from binding to receptors. It does NOT effect other hormones in your body - including progesterone.

Progesterone is different than estrogen and anastrozole (airmidex) ONLY inhibits the binding of ESTROGEN to receptors, nothing else. Progesterone is produced in the ovaries - so no WE as men do not produce this naturally in our bodies.

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## Mike

bump

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## brutis

I'm a little confused here. So no anti-e's will help with deca gyno, is that what everyone is saying?? And instead I should take 50mg/day for 4 weeks of winny. About how much does a 20ml bottle of 50mg winny cost or how much if you buy amps?? This seems like alot of extra shots and also a bit of an expense, is there anything else I can do to help with deca gyno.

Thanks for the help.
Peace
Brutis

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## dumbells101

I have never had a prob with Deca and the experiences of those I know were that deca's aromtiziing was not a prob. Anyone else want to share an experience?

Copied from drug profiles located on this site. 

A conversion into estrogen, that means an aromatizing process, is possible with Deca-Durabolin but occurs at a lower rate than ex: testosterone . During competi-tions with doping tests Deca must not be taken since the metabo-lites in the body can be proven in a urine analysis up to 18 months later. The risk of potential water retention and aromatizing to estro-gen can be successfully prevented by combining the use of Proviron with Nolvadex . A preparatory stack often observed in competing athletes includes 400 mg/week Deca-Durabolin, 50 mg/day Winstrol , 228 mg/week Parabolan , and 25 mg/day Oxandrolone.

Although the side effects with Deca are relatively low with dosages of 400 mg/week, androgenic -caused side effects can occur. Most problems manifest themselves in high blood pressure and a pro-longed time for blood clotting, which can cause frequent nasal bleed-ing and prolonged bleeding of cuts, as well as increased production of the sebaceous gland and occasional acne. Some athletes also re-port headaches and sexual overstimulation. When very high dos-ages are taken over a prolonged period, spermatogenesis can be in-hibited in men, i.e. the testes produce less testosterone. The reason is that Deca-Durabolin, like almost all steroids , inhibits the release of gonadotropins from the hypophysis.

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## Mike

I am embarassed to say so...but thats not entirely correct - read my above posts

THOSE are correct - if anyone has studies to the contrary I would gladly read them and be open to changing this view...

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## dumbells101

I'd be extremely surprised if anyone had any documented studies From ANY true source that explains or shows cause and effect form anabolic steroid use other than for burn patients, aids victims, children who's bodies don't produce Hgh properly, older men who aren't producing enough test, or a legit purpose the drug was intended for. I have never read (and I've searched) anything that explains clinically how certain types of test react together...why a "veterinary" drug called Winstrol is good for cutting bodyfat, how using a hormone found in a pregnant womans urine will stimulates the Leydig's cells in the testes, etc. Every bit of knowledge we have on gear use comes from underground or somones personal experience. Think about it... why would a pharmacutical company spend millions of dollars on research to teach people how to use a class 3 controlled substance. If the research were done on these substances then it would be much easier to go see your md to get what you want, and A.S. would not be a 500 million dollar black market. If the research was there then we would have it more readily. 

I'm Paul Harvey...Goodnight

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## PaPaPumP

Did you have that novel published?! :Wink:  . Just kdding man. Great points made. You got me swaying your way in who's got the correct answer. However, Gotta let Mike respond, because you never know with him! :Big Grin:  He probably has boatloads of reports conducted on HIM and AS use...LOL :Big Grin:  


P

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## dumbells101

I hope Mike has the info cause I want the truth! Educate Me!

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## Mike

Listen up Paul Harvey -

Nobodyu is doing all the work for us - but the foundation of credible scientific study IS there. If I can pull together how tamoxifen or anastrozole works pharmacokinetically (nolvadex and airmidex) etc etc then I can put those studies together with how we know the body works internally and make logical deductions on how these drugs would effect other systems within the body - with and without the added steroid compounds - knowing how the steroids work and what their pk results are.

So no - I was not asking for him to produce a credible clinical study on the treatment of progesterone related gyno (the before mentioned deca gyno) with airmidex - for one I know that this isn't effective so I know that it could not be produced. And secondly - what I WAS open to seeing was if he could come up with a study showing that an anti-aromatase could keep progesterone from binding to receptors and thus diluting the plausibility of gynocomastia.

Get it now??

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## Mike

You have just been educated.

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## Mike

BTW - DB101 - just reread this thread and I am NOT saying that you will get gyno from deca - in fact it's extremely hard to do so since the conversaion is into progesterone which is not naturally produced in the male body and it's converted into small amounts of this hormone - it takes a good amount to acquire gyno

Papa - 

What do you agree with? I am unsure as to what is actually up for debate at this point....are you guys arguing that airmidex or nolvadex will reduce the risk of progesterone related gyno? Or that there is no way to back this up with real studies?

Oh yeah...and a final point - I never said that airmidex or noldvadex would not decrease the incidence of gyno. In fact it WILL - Let's say for example you are taking test and deca (dosages irrelevant in this case) and you have slight conversions of BOTH estrogen (from the test) and progesterone (from the gyno) then cutting down the estrogen build up with an anti aromatase (air. or nolv.) will decrease gyno chances from estrogen AND because it is more likely to get gyno when you have a build up of the TWO in conjunction. But do these drugs actually cut down the amount of PROGESTERONE in the system or by any means keep it from binding to receptors and causing gyno? No. So if that cycle were just deca - no matter what the actual chances of getting gyno were - airmidex, nolvadex etc would NOT chance those chances for the better OR worse.

Get it?

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## dumbells101

Mike, School's not out yet Bro, I never said nolvadex and airmidex had anything to do with progesterone aromitization, I simply stated what I know from what I read and heard. And I'm not here ditchin on you about clinical studies. You say we can "make logical deductions on how these drugs would effect other systems within the body - with and without the added steroid compounds" but again that did not answer my question. You simply restated what I know... in clinical terms. I said show me a study that demonstrates what and how we use the different compounds together and or in what combinations, not tell me how they work within the body. If you want to give us a chemistry lesson then go ahead and explain it so EVERYONE can understand in simple terms. I'm sure virtually everyone would benefit from your pharmacological expertise. Follow me?

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## Mike

> _Originally posted by dumbells101_ 
> *Mike, School's not out yet Bro, I never said nolvadex and airmidex had anything to do with progesterone aromitization, I simply stated what I know from what I read and heard. And I'm not here ditchin on you about clinical studies. You say we can "make logical deductions on how these drugs would effect other systems within the body - with and without the added steroid compounds" but again that did not answer my question. You simply restated what I know... in clinical terms. I said show me a study that demonstrates what and how we use the different compounds together and or in what combinations, not tell me how they work within the body. If you want to give us a chemistry lesson then go ahead and explain it so EVERYONE can understand in simple terms. I'm sure virtually everyone would benefit from your pharmacological expertise. Follow me?*


To be honest bro no I do not follow you - I stated already that there are NO studies that show certain interactions like the treatment of progesterone related gyno with an anti-aromatase - BUT there ARE studies on progesterone conversions, anti-aromatase drugs for the treatment of estrogen build ups, progesterone related gyno, estrogen related gyno etc - and by compiling these studies it IS possible to put together abstracts supporting or defying the use of certain treatments BASED on factual clinical information. I NEVER said that the studies you were asking for existed. So I don't know where you got that.

Also - you said - 

"Mike, School's not out yet Bro, I never said nolvadex and airmidex had anything to do with progesterone aromitization, I simply stated what I know from what I read and heard."

Progesterone aromitization? I don't know really what you are talking about or referring to here but if this is in reference to my denying that these drugs (airmidex and nolvadex) would help with progesterone related gyno - well that was the original topic of the thread if you remember.

Are you being sarcastic here?

"If you want to give us a chemistry lesson then go ahead and explain it so EVERYONE can understand in simple terms. I'm sure virtually everyone would benefit from your pharmacological expertise. Follow me?"

God I hope you're not trying to be rude or sarcastic - if you are serious and you really want that then that's what I will provide.

You also stated:

"I said show me a study that demonstrates what and how we use the different compounds together and or in what combinations, not tell me how they work within the body." 

Well as I said earlier - if you are looking for studies on anti-aromatase drugs like airmidex being used to treat deca gyno - these studies don't exist. But by telling you how deca works in the body and what the process is in going from deca to progesterone to gyno and also telling you how airmidex works in the body well then I have presented to you the information you are looking for - I guess just not in the form of a "study" that you would like. 

I am getting a little confused here - let's start over - if there is something I said that you disagree with please state that clearly. If you have a question about something I have said or one in general please state that as well and we will go from there.

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## dumbells101

Ok Mike, not being sarcastic. Seriously I value your input and am certain everyone else values your expertise as a drug rep. I posted the only info I personally read or experienced on Deca aromitizing, and it was not related to progesterone. My bad on that, I then stated in the thread that there were no studies done on anti aromitizing drugs related to A.S. use, and that we are limited to the experience of those who have learned over the past 40+years. The other part was obviously not related to this post and that's where I lost you.

This is what I would like you to do. Explain (as if to a 9 year old) the mechanism by which aromitization takes place and how certain drugs help those cases. And which ones will not work. No dis-respect here and I may be wrong but perhaps some people may not understand aromitization, PK or Negative feedback etc. 

My original post was to let Brutus know that deca aromitizing was rare.

Peace Bro

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## Mike

Ok gotcha bud - here goes....

The two types of aromatization we are talking about now is the type from testosterone and the type from deca . To clarify - first off aromatization is "the conversion of"

Testosterone will aromatize (or convert), once in the system, to estrogen. We all know what estrogen is - it is the female hormanal equivalent to testosterone. When someone is taking in excess amounts of testosterone (on a steroid cycle that obviously raises test levels above that of normal) that means there will be extra amounts of estrogen once the test has converted. Make sense? Good. This excess of estrogen in the male body once built up can cause gynocamastia. If I need to define that I will - but I think we're ok on that one. 

Now for the aromatization of deca. This is the same process as with testosterone with one exception. The deca does NOT convert into estrogen. But instead progesterone. This is another female hormone that is created in the ovaries and NOT in males. When this builds up in the system it too will cause gyno. But NOT estrogen induced (like it would be with testosterone cycles) but instead, progesterone induced.

Now to explain how the anti-aromatase drugs work - like Airmidex (anastrozole). 

When airmidex is taken it attaches to the aromatase and blocks the activity of the aromatase enzyme that changes androgens to estrogen. (This process is airmidex keeping the testosterone from converting to estrogen) Thus airmidex stops the production of estrogen - it lowers the amount of estrogen in your body and keeps it from binding to receptors. It does NOT effect other hormones in your body - including progesterone. 

In short - 

So if someone was going to get gyno from testosterone - taking airmidex will keep the testosterone from converting and eventually causing gyno.

On the other hand - if someone was taking deca rather than testosterone - the gyno they would be vulnerable to would be caused by progesterone in the body. And since airmidex ONLY stops the production of estrogen and NOT progesterone - the the chances of getting gyno on a deca cycle will NOT be affected by taking airmidex.

As a side note - you mentioned something about how common it would be to get gyno from deca. NOT common. It takes a large amount of progesterone to cause gyno and in the doses that most people use of deca - it's not a very feasible threat.

Ok well - it wasn't exactly the explanation suitable for a nine year old but this isn't a nine year old conversation we're having. And I don't think we have any nine year olds on here. I DID try to simplify it as much as I could however. And I think it will be comprehensible to someone with a high school diploma. PLEASE feel free to ask questions about anything that was not clear and I can further simplify certain points of this whole process and interaction.

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## dumbells101

See everyone, that is an education. And I believe even my nine year old daughter would get most of that. Great info...great post.

Thanks Mike

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## Mike

Woohoo! Great - I am glad you understood - now seriously - please ask any questions if yu want me to verify something - I may not have done it so well I wont be insulted - if all is clear I think I will change the title of this thread and even toss it up into the important articles section.

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## dumbells101

My fault the wire got crossed I added a whole topic to the thread without trying to. Thanks again Mike

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## arthurb999

How does winstrol fit into this picture as the protector against progesterone induced gyno?

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## Mike

LOL

Oh shit...I KNEW someone was gonna catch and bring that one up  :Smilie: 

Ok here goes....the molecular changes required to make an AAS orally active also increases the binding and subsequent antagonism of the GCR (the C-17 alkylated steroids such as stanozolol , oxymethylone, methandrostenelone)

So essentially - those orals such as anadrol and especially winny are molecularly structured (in order to become active for oral administration) in such a way that the drug will bind to the progesterone receptor but is NOT progestogenic and acts in non AR mechanisms (AR = adrogen receptor) Whereas Deca IS progestogenic

Conclusion being that YES winny is effective in reducing the incidence of progesterone induced gyno

I know EXACTLY what the next question coming up is going to be and the answer is YES  :Smilie: 

Phew......Is this a quiz or what!? LOL

 :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Mike

DB101:

Read this post - Cycleon put it up a while back - i thought it was funny cause you were just asking me to explain in terms a nine year old could understand and this is written in comic book fashion! LOL

read up...

T-Man vs E-Man

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## Mike

You guys dissapoint me........you pick the hell outta my brain and when i give ya what you want to leave me! My goodness - you're just like women - all of ya!

 :Big Grin:

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## arthurb999

Sorry Mike...I guess we weren't be apprecative and we hurt your feelings. 

Are you on clomid???  :Confused:

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## dumbells101

Hey Mike relax, after all that brain food, I'm still flossing. I'll Have another post for you in a while.

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## Mike

LOL I am kidding bud - no worries - don't worry the reprieve is nice!  :Smilie: 

No I am not on clomid  :Smilie: 

But Arthur - was your question answered?

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## arthurb999

Yea bro, I'm set. Everyone here always told me that winnie blocked deca gyno but no one said how. Since there was a scientific deca gyno discussion going on, I figured this was the best time to ask.

Because of this board, I am BY FAR the most educated one of my friends on the AS subject. Thanks for your help.

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## Mike

No problem brother - keep reading up! It's your health you're dealing with!

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## Mike

There's some good info in here - I am gonna make this a sticky until I compile an article to post up top.

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## PaPaPumP

Good post...Mike AND DB101.. I love a good debate, keeps the boards thriving! :Big Grin:

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## CYCLEON

ok, Gents I hate to come in here but YOU do realize that progesterone does not "aromatize". Aromatase is an enzyme required for the conversion of androgens (test) to estrogens. Progesterone operates via a whole different pathway and is effected by the level of Test to DHT conversion. Mike Im sure you know that.

Second - for all this fine talk, does anyone have any idea what the correct dosage for RU-486 is if you did get your hands on it? I do  :Big Grin:  and can say that it does work as I know several people who use it regularly.

As to studies of combatting proge titties, they are unlikely to exist - however it is simple logic to understand that if progesterone receptors are blocked, then there will be no buildup.

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## Mike

Cycleon - 

As for progesterone "aromatizing" You are absolutely right - it doesn't - thats what the point of the post was. I was trying to explain why using an anti-aromatase wouldn't work against prog because as you said the mechanism of action is NOT related to the process of progesterone conversion

And you are also right about the studies - progesterone is a hormone foreign to male bodies - shouldnt be there. It's made naturally ONLY in the ovaries - and in any clinical use of drugs that convert to progesterone - there are NO uses that dictate doses high enough to create unhealthy gyno inducing amounts of progesterone in males so there would be no studies on the treatment of male progesterone induced gyno

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## The Iron Game

"A conversion into estrogen, that means an aromatizing process"

a conversion is not the same thing as aromatising, some steroids convert but do not aromatise.

Mike as usual passed this with flying colors and I look forward to learning more apart from winny being of use which I disagree on

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## primodonna

> _Originally posted by Mike_ 
> *You guys dissapoint me........you pick the hell outta my brain and when i give ya what you want to leave me! My goodness - you're just like women - all of ya!
> 
> *



Hey...I haven't left you...then again, you haven't given me what I want yet either  :Smilie: 

Good info btw.

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## flexshack

just wondering if once you stop taking the ru-486, will all the built up progesterone in the body cause gyno? or does ru-486 prevent the buildup too? thanks
flex

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## Mike

Primo - 

I am very sorry - been busy as hell - I can promise you an email by tomorrow - sound good? Again I do apologize.

IG - 

I am not too sure what my stance is on winny w/ progesterone. I believe that in theory it has some properties that aid in the prevention of progesterone binding so it may be of some use - but I think these properties are grossly overstated and that using winny is not that effective in preventing gyno from progesterone if you are prone to it. Like I said though - that is based on theory. I do plan on researching more to see if I can't find real information to back this up one way or another - I am very curious as to what the final answer is on this one. I would like to know. 

Cycleon - 

I can honestly say I don't know the dosing for RU-486 - so you have me there. I have never had to use it myself and actually have never had gyno from deca . So it's your turn to enlighten us.

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## primodonna

Mike- i swear i wasn't even referring to that e-mail. I know you and everyone else on here are busy and don't spend 24hrs a day on their computer. I always figure any help is just an added bonus and i NEVER expect it from anyone.

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## Mike

oh  :Smilie: 

Well I will email you back tomorrow anyway - and what WERE you referring to then? Hmmm what's primo want???  :Smilie:

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## CYCLEON

well, to answer quickly - mifepristone (ru486) blocks the progesterone receptors so progesterone cant bind to them. this keeps prog from triggering the progestin DNA synthesis process with works in conjunction with estrogen to cause titties. since the half life of progesterone in only 5mins it is unlikely that there would be any rebound effect of "free" prog after ceasing mifepristone treatment.

dose for men would be 200mg (1 EU pill) ETD or 60-70mg (3 china pills) ED. more than that seems to begin to cause too much of a reduction in cortisol - causing dry joints, similar to large winny doses

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## The Iron Game

> _Originally posted by Mike_ 
> IG - 
> 
> I am not too sure what my stance is on winny w/ progesterone. I believe that in theory it has some properties that aid in the prevention of progesterone binding so it may be of some use - but I think these properties are grossly overstated and that using winny is not that effective in preventing gyno from progesterone if you are prone to it. Like I said though - that is based on theory.


Exactly my point Sir, theory is theory and will always remain as theory and I do not personally believe winny will prevent gyno from deca . If you are going to get it you are going to get it and it is much harder to combat than estrogen related sides.

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## Mike

IG - 

Agreed.

Cycleon - 

Thank you.

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## flexshack

hey great thread guys! just wanted to know how common deca gyno is? are most people sensitive to progesterone and the gyno it brings? i am going to take deca 400mg/week and was worried how good the odds were of being sensitive. any statistical estimates would be great. thanks.
flex

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## brutis

I just wanted to thank everyone who posted on my topic of "Deca Gyno". I got alot of useful info which I did not know before which helped to clear up the little confusion I was having. If anyone has any or finds any articles on winny helping to reduce progesterone related gyno please post because this topic still interests me, and i'd like to learn more about it.

Thanks for all the help
Peace
Brutis

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## Mike

Flex - I can almost promis you that at 400mgs of deca you wont have gyno problems as it takes a good amount of deca to convert enough progesterone to cause gyno

Brutis - I am glad you got your question MORE than answered  :Smilie:  I am looking into the winny subject right now - I am not big on opinion based information and right now I dont believe anyone (including myself) has anything more than theory to bring to the table on whether or not winny really does prevent progesterone binding - so until I can prove otherwise - the most logical answer is NO winny doesnt help - but I will find out what the real answer is and get back to ya

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## Tom

Mike great job bro my question is where do you think the danger zone starts with deca and if progesterone is not produced in the male body then no male can be prone to it right? if that is the case than it is all in how your body handles it?

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## Mike

Thats a good question - you kinda answered it yourself - as progesterone is naturally foreign to males nobody is prone or predisposed - but on the other hand nobody is invincible to it either - it IS the way your body handles it - so that answers the next one too about the danger zone - a dose for me may do nothing - and that same dose may give you gyno in a couple weeks - really is an issue with internal hormonal make up of the user - I would say as a benchmark though that deca is MOST LIKELY not going to cause gyno in a cycle at 500mg for 10wks or anything lighter than that - I have never met anyone that got gyno in the traditional 400/wk 8wk cycle - you always kill deca earlier than your test anyway. But nothing here is concrete - I cannot stress enough that prog being foreign to us there is no telling how one person will react to the next.

Does that answer anything or make it more confusing?  :Smilie:

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## Tom

kool that answers my question the only other thing I was wondering where does the progesterone come from in DECA and in the medical field what would it be used for? is it meant for women to use instead of men?

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## Mike

Progesterone is not IN the deca - but when the deca is entered into the male body it converts into progesterone (the hormone) this hormone IS produced naturally but NOT by men - it is produced in the ovaries of women

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## The Iron Game

did you also know hcg increases progesterone levels in women  :Smilie:  it is unlikely that it will have the same effect in males BUT if we do not have natural progesterone then there is nothing to say it is not a possibility that it can happen. tick tock tick tock

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## Mike

Very good point - supports my general distaste for the use of HCG

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## Gizmo

Hey Mike, some time ago my body was producing HCG (i'm male), because of a disease, and i got sensitive nipples.
Could this mean deca would be dangerous for me?

Giz

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## The Iron Game

im not Mike but No, the gyno was probably from the rapid rate of estrogen conversion from the hcg .

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## Mike

Iron Game is right - that's a whole nother story - getting gyno from deca is a different process entirely

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## Gizmo

Thanks guys :Smilie:

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## G-PIG

guys, this poor kid wondering if hes gonna get man boobs from deca has been caught between a jucie knowledge pissing contest not knocking you guys, your are all huge helps to guys like this one and myself, i just thought it was funny, maybe we could start a virtual arm wrestling forum for you dudes !!

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## Mike

A pissing contest? Is that what this was about? hmm......

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## CYCLEON

I win then

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## Tom

what is hcg

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## Tom

never mind I looked it up

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## Gizmo

LOL..wtf..poor kid..pissing contest?
You wanna take it outside G-pig?

It just made me wonder because i always thought Nolvadex would prevent gyno from deca because i thought the gyno occured from the little test that is aromatized that your body still makes 



READ THIS
"
Nandrolone complexes contain no testosterone or tes. esters. Therefore they cannot be aromatized into estradiol. It is the actual testosterone in the male that is aromatized into estradiol. Common anabolic compounds either suppress the natural production of testosterone or cause an increase in natural tes. production. Methandrostenolone , for example, has been shown to increase the available natural tes. by up to five times in clinical studies, setting off massive chemical responses of aromitization. Nandrolones on the other hand have been shown to disrupt the production of tes. but stimulate the receptors to the point that what little tes. was produced was aromatized immediately into estradiol"

So when i heard progesteron could be the culprit and HCG could MAYBE raise progesteron levels, i figured i'd ask

Giz

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## xenithon

hi there guys,

i have read through all the posts here and between all the fighting and scientific jargon it was kinda hard locating a concrete answer due to all the different opinions. my question is:

...what if you do get some gyno from deca eg. sensitive nipples etc. If you catch it early, what CAN you take to help stop it? Besides winny (which many people here still doubt) is there anything else? Will a proviron /nolvadex stack help? Will the pregnancy pill help?? Just wanted to double check in case anything pops up in my cyle  :Smilie: 

thanks guys!

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## xenithon

one last thing:

If I can get my hands on RU-486, I just wanted to know if there are any negative side-effects?

thanks!

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## Black Stang

Reading this helped me alot since I will useing Deca for the first time very soon, with Sustanon 250. I think alot of people will benefit from this information.  :Big Grin:

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## Mike

Well jet ski.......when me and your mother love eachother VERY much.......


 :Big Grin:

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## hatchblack

If using a anti-aromatase such as blocks the conversion of androgen to estrogen, is more abundant androgen then available and is it helpful in muscle growth. Therefore, would the use of an anti-estrogen be beneficial throughout the entirity of the cylce or should it just be used in the case of the developement of gyno

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## Big Al

Anti-e when gyno occurs, aromitise inhibitor from start of cycle to finish of clomid.

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## hatchblack

so should you be using both arimidex /liquidex and nolvadex in cycle. I am pretty sure that I would be gyno sensitive so I will make sure to have both, or at least arimidex or liquidex available.

what is an example of an anti-e and an anti-aromatase?

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## caggedemon

YO MIKE UR GR8 MAN !!SIMPLY GR8 ,
BY THE WAY THANX 4 UR POST ON AROMATIZATION IT IS SIMPLY SUPERB,AS IN INDIA NO ONE REALLY KNOWS 'BOUT HOW THESE ROIDS WORK NOT EVEN THE DOCS ....JUS KIDIN !! I KNOW MUCH BETTER ANYWAYS MIKE THANX I LEARNT A GR8 DEAL FRM YA .NICE POST

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## JDBU

I have a bump above my right nipple only and it doesnt really hurt to bad to touch it and it started about 3 weeks after the cycle when i started clomids . i took deca and abombsso it would be prog gyno if any and i dont have the ru486 pill. would running winny now even help since i already have a bump? I s it even really gyno? i have nolvadex and am taking that now.

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## pusher

Hi guys .................................ok just read all that..if its possible to get tities from deca (from the progesteron conversion) is it allso possible to get progesteron tities from sustanon 250 because it contains 100mg of DECONATE?

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## MilitiaGuy

from a year my friend had a deca cycle of 200mg/week for 8 weeks and he didnt get any sign of gyno

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## majorpecs

omg..you guys need to warn us new guys about posts like this....shit, my head hurts.....and i am more confused than ever....it is going to take me years to sort all this stuff out.....AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH

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## djdjdjddjon

the answer to could you get progesterone gyno from sust because of the decanoate, the answer is no...decanoate is just an ester, its not the nandrolone molecule itself, which is the responsible one in the progesterone gyno situation, the actualy compound in sust is testosterone decanoate, not nandrolone decanoate...hope this helps, great post guys

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## steelcurtain16

im considering 300wktest eth by brov ** decca 25 dbol ** a day for 8weeks

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## steelcurtain16

I forgot what should i use to prevent gyno winstol pills, arimidex nolvadex or what also what can i do to prevent hair loss dht blocker or rogain or propecia?????

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## Iflexit

Mike said:

"Ok here goes....the molecular changes required to make an AAS orally active also increases the binding and subsequent antagonism of the GCR (the C-17 alkylated steroids such as stanozolol , oxymethylone, methandrostenelone)

So essentially - those orals such as anadrol and especially winny are molecularly structured (in order to become active for oral administration) in such a way that the drug will bind to the progesterone receptor but is NOT progestogenic and acts in non AR mechanisms (AR = adrogen receptor) Whereas Deca IS progestogenic

Conclusion being that YES winny is effective in reducing the incidence of progesterone induced gyno"

Does that mean that only the ORAL version of Winny is efffective against progesterone gyno, but not the injectable?

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## vinnytheginni

to everyone who added on this subject,

I have read all of it and will use the info for my next cycle, but i wondering. I have already used deca and towards the end of my cycle i started getting little rocks in my nipples. I figured it would go away, but it is now about 3 months later and they are still there. I was wondering if anyone knew what i could do to ge rid of this. There was plenty on preventing it, but not getting rid of it.

Thank you,

vinny

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## Tanksta

Mike - You seem to know what you are talking about. How about putting together a Deca cycle for me? :-)

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## PumP~N~Swole

Well not sure why Mike has quit on this topic I thought it was lovely lol. Course Theres some questions that has came up that mike hasn't answered or he's away. My question is this, you say the chances are slim to get gyno from deca with a 500mg cycle or less for 8 to 10 weeks and it would take alot to build up to get it, Lets say you did 300 or 400mg for 8-10wks and your body got some conversion to progesterone but no gyno now lets say 10 wks later or longer you decided to do the same cycle that little bit of conversion to progesterone does it go away or does it just stay there. If it leaves the body that would be ok on the other hand if it stays in the body every cycle you do there after will just keep stacking and stacking until sooner or later it's gyno. Mike or others care to clear this up for me. Soon I'm going to start a deca cycle.


Thanks,
PNS

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## whackedmytoe

:Big Grin:  
Don't forget that you can get, and should, a blood panel that will show your Pro levels...and thus give you a benchmark on where you stand and if you have levated levels to worry about. Also, according to Dan Duchaine the now dead Steriod Guru, Deca conversion is dependant on the individual; you are either at rish or not, no way to tell- and at levels below 500/mg a week the probability for anyone is very low, greater than 600/mg a week some risk, greater than 800/mg a week, a bit higher. At your dose I frankly wouldn't sweat it...and get a blood panel!

Harley

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## xtremesport14

I hear otc vitex works for Deca ? Anyone know

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## bmfgsxr

> "A conversion into estrogen, that means an aromatizing process"
> 
> a conversion is not the same thing as aromatising, some steroids convert but do not aromatise.
> 
> Mike as usual passed this with flying colors and I look forward to learning more apart from winny being of use which I disagree on


couple questions here. so what would you need to keep the deca from converting into progesteron since it doesnt belong in our bodies anyway. also, when taking winny with deca, does it hinder the effect on deca helping the joints? thanks

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## ENraged

wow now that was a great thread!! this is why after surfing the boards everyday i come back to this one for all the info i can absorb. The minds on this board are just amazing.!!! Keep up the most excellent work bro's

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## bmfgsxr

> couple questions here. so what would you need to keep the deca from converting into progesteron since it doesnt belong in our bodies anyway. also, when taking winny with deca, does it hinder the effect on deca helping the joints? thanks



nevermind, the ru486 will help the deca induced gyno. and winny will counteract the effects on the joints deca has.

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## powerlifter

Hey guys I thought Bromocryptine was used to stop this

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## thepremier

Is there anything I can do about gyno that I got from a cycle of Fina, Anavar , and Winstrol ? I don't have very much under my left nipple, but I have a considerable amount under my right nipple. I was thinking I could take some Tamoxifen Citrate and Vitamin B6 to at least try to get rid of some of the gyno, I'll most likely have to have surgery to get rid of all of it though. Is it ever too late to run this stuff for gyno? Help would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

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## Bryan2

Alright i just stumbled upon this thread i myself incured progesterone gyno i was taking 750 mg of sust and 300mg of deca 400mg of eq weekly for eight weeks
ran nolva al the way through and ran out of nolva during pct waited 2 weeks to get more and low and behold i was lactating from nipples and always heard this to be progesterone induced i got small lumps to boot also and to everyone who says that nolva wont work its bull i believe that progesterone causes soreness and lactation but not actually lump growth there still has to be some estro persent for this to happen so i took 60mg for 4 days of nolva and continued for three weeks a 20 mg along with 500 mg twice daily of b6 and within the three days i halted it from further progression but now when ever i mess with hormone i have to be really carefull because of new growth

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## trent

> The only way to completely eliminate deca induced gyno is getting the abortion pill. That will be very hard to get, as you are obviously not pregnant. But winny does very well in minimizing estrogen build up from Deca. But with that low a dose, you shouldn't have to worry. But maybe get yourself some Winny to be on the safe side. 
> 
> P


 Hi im new here. i live in a country where the abortion pill is very easyli bought legal at any pharmacy without a prescription. how can i use it to eliminate gyno from deca? how many? how often? anyone tryed this here?

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## farrebarre

> So if someone was going to get gyno from testosterone - taking airmidex will keep the testosterone from converting and eventually causing gyno.
> 
> On the other hand - if someone was taking deca rather than testosterone - the gyno they would be vulnerable to would be caused by progesterone in the body. And since airmidex ONLY stops the production of estrogen and NOT progesterone - the the chances of getting gyno on a deca cycle will NOT be affected by taking airmidex.


hey, so if i use both testosterone and deca , would that mean that i have to use arimidex AND nolvadex ? hm..

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## Shrad6

> so should you be using both arimidex /liquidex and nolvadex in cycle. I am pretty sure that I would be gyno sensitive so I will make sure to have both, or at least arimidex or liquidex available.
> 
> what is an example of an anti-e and an anti-aromatase?


BUMP can someone answer this. Asides from winny what other things can you use to prevent getting gyno when using deca in your cycle.

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## bigman96

im about to run 600mgs test e. and 400 deca . test is for weeks 1-17 and deca for 15 weeks. I still dont feel that the way to prevent deca induced gyno has been answered. Somebody plz help1!!

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## rsanchez

Great posts! Just for the record, their shouldnt be any problems with prog build up in with 400 mgs of Deca for 10 weeks rights?

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## brandonstanks

The questions haven't been answered yet.

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## Got Insulin?

for prog. induced gyno - 200 mg of vitamin B6
prevent gyno - nolvadex @ 10 mg ED and Liquidex .25

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## brandonstanks

awesome! How the hell do you find aromasin ???

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## zomzom

somewhere on the net  :Smilie:  pm i will give u a source

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## robkesl

god, this thread has to be one of the most confusing ive ever read, i thought i had a handle on the topic, but im not sure anymore, someone expierenced should come and lay down the truths about progestorone, and preventions, what works and whatnot. 

i only know of deca and tren , that cause it.

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## brandonstanks

i think letro would also be a good idea instead of liquidex

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## Rocky IV

> i think letro would also be a good idea instead of liquidex


 letro is shit just keep with the L-dex

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## plugthug

I need to jump on this thread to answer my own ques. I have cycled Deca by itself and stacked once year for last 3 years with no probs. Currently I am cycling 300mg/ wk Deca w/ 250mg sus/ wk. i was taking d-bol @ 20 mg day 1st 3 weeks until I started getting NIPPLE TENDERNESS. I discontinued the d-bol (it was reforvit) and started taking Nolvadex to combat the glands hardening behind my nipples. It has not worked. Is my condition from the Deca (which I've never had a prob, with) or from the d-bol? Can I reverse these eearly stages?. If so how? I dont want BITCh TITS. So far its not noticeable. HELP

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## grim911

hey guys im new to this hole steroids thing. im not worried reall r lt im worried about gyno and i have read every thing writen in here out it but dont really understand one thing. my freind is etting me Dbol and i was wondering since im if that was only steriod i was to use. how much would i need to gain a decent amount of mussle mass such as 100 mg a day for four weeks. and if i did do that what are my chances of getting gyno any adivce woud help. I am curently seventeen weigh about one sixty and want to get to about 180 i am only playing on doing one cycle to help me gain mussle mass and then go off of it for a long time. so what would u suggest doing to bulk up massivly and not get gyno plzs help and try 2 dumb it down a bit so i kno what ur saying

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## one8nine

> Mike said:
> 
> "Ok here goes....the molecular changes required to make an AAS orally active also increases the binding and subsequent antagonism of the GCR (the C-17 alkylated steroids such as stanozolol , oxymethylone, methandrostenelone)
> 
> So essentially - those orals such as anadrol and especially winny are molecularly structured (in order to become active for oral administration) in such a way that the drug will bind to the progesterone receptor but is NOT progestogenic and acts in non AR mechanisms (AR = adrogen receptor) Whereas Deca IS progestogenic
> 
> Conclusion being that YES winny is effective in reducing the incidence of progesterone induced gyno"
> 
> Does that mean that only the ORAL version of Winny is efffective against progesterone gyno, but not the injectable?


the injectable is also 17aa thats why you can drink it

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## grim911

im 17 and the only thing ican get is dbolt if i want to gain a signigicant amount of mussle mass how much do i need to take a day and if i were to take that much to get a good gain for about four weeks what are the chances of getting gyno plz help :]

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## [email protected]

grim your situation looks pretty grim if you ask me. dbol is an oral ingestible that shouldnt be taken alone as you will loose the majority of your size and strength gains due to the excess water retention that will be significantly reduced upon cesation of this steroid . Dbol is often recomended as a "kick starter" steroid that a user would incorporate at the begining of his cycle in conjunction with a steroid like Deca -durabolin . Also it is used as a "bridge" in which the user takes the steroid at the end of his cycle to help retain gains made by keeping his testosterone levels high. I do not recomend using dbols alone because you will simply be waisting your money and experiencing momentary gains. 

I am stacking 10mg Dbols into the start of my cycle. Does anyone have any recomendations as the the time of day i should be taking the oral? Curently i am taking one in the morning with my first meal, heading to the gym about an hour and a half after, and then taking one with the protein shake i drink post workout. Will this suffice? I have heard that it is better to spread out the consumption time by allowing a longer brake in between to keep your body's level of the oral steroid at a fairly constant state. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thank you.

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## pumpd4lif

well u can start with the fact that dbol has a 4 hour half life i would take 30 mg am noon and pm but that is me

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## Test247

Iam on a 
375mg TEST 
600mg Deca cycle

Ive posted about this before... just updating and joining this informative thread.

I was using arimidex at .5 ED and ~50mg ED noval, till I was told novaldex is bad with Deca, I still want to know the mechanism why on this...

So I already had very minor gyno, however its always stayed under control on a low test dose with arimidex, but since adding in the Deca (I was cruising on test and ramped it up a few weeks earlier) they are slightly hardening and getting more tender. Nothing to visible, but I feel like they have SLIGHTLY grown.

Stayed on arimidex right now.

Jumped on 300mg B6 and 25mg Winny Oral ED this last week, but no improvement so far... however I just quit the noval if that hurt.

Just throwing in my info here for whatever its worth. I just figure at this point **** it Im gonna need gyno surgery one day, not that it shows, it just bugs me having marbles in there.

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## TractionIssues

> Iam on a 
> 375mg TEST 
> 600mg Deca cycle
> 
> Ive posted about this before... just updating and joining this informative thread.
> 
> I was using arimidex at .5 ED and ~50mg ED noval, till I was told novaldex is bad with Deca, I still want to know the mechanism why on this...
> 
> So I already had very minor gyno, however its always stayed under control on a low test dose with arimidex, but since adding in the Deca (I was cruising on test and ramped it up a few weeks earlier) they are slightly hardening and getting more tender. Nothing to visible, but I feel like they have SLIGHTLY grown.
> ...


Why did you post on a thread that is over 3 years old?

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## xHUMONGOUSx

> Iam on a 
> 375mg TEST 
> 600mg Deca cycle
> 
> Ive posted about this before... just updating and joining this informative thread.
> 
> I was using arimidex at .5 ED and ~50mg ED noval, till I was told novaldex is bad with Deca, I still want to know the mechanism why on this...
> 
> So I already had very minor gyno, however its always stayed under control on a low test dose with arimidex, but since adding in the Deca (I was cruising on test and ramped it up a few weeks earlier) they are slightly hardening and getting more tender. Nothing to visible, but I feel like they have SLIGHTLY grown.
> ...


letro cleared my pre-existing gyno. it's all the estrogen control i use now (at a very low .5mg/eod) even when i've taken test, deca and tren -ace together. i'm not saying it will work for everyone but i would strongly recommend you give it a try ( you can run it as high as 2.5mg/day) before considering surgery. i would bet it will clear it for you. be aware you need to give it at least 2-3 weeks to be at full effect. letro can take as long as 6 weeks to reach stable plasma levels. do some reading on it and give it a try.

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## asr77

hey i cant post my own thread, i posted on a sticky but nobody answered...
can someone give me an answer thanks!

I have been off a test/winny cycle for about 3 months, and did a thorough PCT, and thought everythin was chill, till past week or so i started noticing slight sensitivity behind my right nipple, its very very mild but nonetheless it's there...

I have Letro on the way will be here wednesday and will be following guidelines, great thread, but i have a question about sex drive...

although im not super horny (as i feel i should be at least) i have not shut down at all since my cycle, but i read letro will kill sex drive... What can i do to help with that??? is that a definite thing? for how long??? I dotn want to disappoint the ladies know what i mean

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## reichertc2009

> Ok gotcha bud - here goes....
> 
> The two types of aromatization we are talking about now is the type from testosterone and the type from deca . To clarify - first off aromatization is "the conversion of"
> 
> Testosterone will aromatize (or convert), once in the system, to estrogen. We all know what estrogen is - it is the female hormanal equivalent to testosterone. When someone is taking in excess amounts of testosterone (on a steroid cycle that obviously raises test levels above that of normal) that means there will be extra amounts of estrogen once the test has converted. Make sense? Good. This excess of estrogen in the male body once built up can cause gynocamastia. If I need to define that I will - but I think we're ok on that one. 
> 
> Now for the aromatization of deca. This is the same process as with testosterone with one exception. The deca does NOT convert into estrogen. But instead progesterone. This is another female hormone that is created in the ovaries and NOT in males. When this builds up in the system it too will cause gyno. But NOT estrogen induced (like it would be with testosterone cycles) but instead, progesterone induced.
> 
> Now to explain how the anti-aromatase drugs work - like Airmidex (anastrozole). 
> ...


thnx

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