# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  No More Insurance for TRT

## Low Testosterone

Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.

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## 2Sox

Sucks, big time. Hope there is a TRT lobby.

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## Charlie6

What if you're on trt because you have secondary hypogonadism? That's a medical necessity, not elective, isn't it? So they wouldn't cover any endo appointments?

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## kelkel

LT what exceptions are there?

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## Beethoven

As it is now, my Dr which is also my primary Dr and BW is the only thing covered. ( oh I forgot my Anastrozole ) but my test and HCG has never been covered.

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## ngtmarpete

You can thank our wonderful elected officials in Washington for all of this! I didn't even bother with my Ins when I started TRT. I knew this was coming so I just went to lowtestosterone.com.

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## Rrexy

I expected this from the beginning. That's why I too went to LowTestosterone.com first.

How about the Health Care Spending Plans - Can they still be used to pay for treatments? 
I don't mean will they be accepted as a payment by LowTestosterone.com - I mean will this still be an expense that is approved by the Feds.?

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## lovbyts

> Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.


Thank you ObamaCare.... I'm sure Pain meds are still covered and soon to come end of life (suicide) pills. As Obama said, sometimes it's better to take the pill than it is to treat the problem. Yeah he really said that.

I sort of saw this comming and have been being a pack rat for the last few years just in case.... I suggest everyone do the same and try to stretch things out if possible. It's always nice to have a LITTLE extra in case the well runs dry for a while.

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## 2Sox

> LT what exceptions are there?


I'd like to know the answer to this question too. It would be indeed ironic if Medicare and Medicaid were the only two that would cover.

And I'd like to know the whole story on this. 

I'd speculate that Big Insurance won't stop here. What's next? No coverage for illnesses connected to obesity - like diabetes, stroke, heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol? "We're not covering you because you eat too much."

I'll bet the next news we'll be hearing about this are big time court challenges.

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## lovbyts

> I'd like to know the answer to this question too. It would be indeed ironic if Medicare and Medicaid were the only two that would cover.
> 
> And I'd like to know the whole story on this. 
> 
> I'd speculate that Big Insurance won't stop here. What's next? No coverage for illnesses connected to obesity - like diabetes, stroke, heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol? "We're not covering you because you eat too much."
> 
> I'll bet the next news we'll be hearing about this are big time court challenges.


No no, see there is BIG money to be made due to Obesity, diabetes, blood pressure and especially cholesterol.

With HRT it many times lowers blood pressure, causes weight/fat loss lower cholesterol etc. They dont want to back anything that works as a cure. They want to treat the symptoms. There is more money to be made that way.

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## 2Sox

> No no, see there is BIG money to be made due to Obesity, diabetes, blood pressure and especially cholesterol.
> 
> With HRT it many times lowers blood pressure, causes weight/fat loss lower cholesterol etc. They dont want to back anything that works as a cure. They want to treat the symptoms. There is more money to be made that way.


That clears everything up. ;-)

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## BMW550i

My wife works for an insurance company and this doesn't suprise me. I haven't started yet but I have the prescription and she's totally against it. I tried comparing it to high blood pressure and diabetes and she said there's no comparison. There are deaths from high blood pressure, cholesterol and diabetes. There are no deaths from low T. She was telling me that, based on the news, treating low T can cause deaths. She's going by the recent news about heart attacks at the VA.

I told her about the symptoms and how it's connected to diabetes, altzheimer's (sp?), metabolic symdrome, artlesclerosis (sp?), high cholesterol, depression, and her response that they are connected but it's not proven. Her mindset is that anyone who has low T can change their diet, start exercising, lose some weight, stop smoking and drinking and be cured. I've noticed that alot of my friends believe that and even a few doctors. That's why I don't talk about testosterone outside of this message board. There's alot of misinformation about it and it looks like the misinformation is winning. I'm 6 feet, 195 lbs. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I exercise regularily and my diet is great but I still have low T. Her mindset, as well as my old docs, was that I was fine since my symptoms were mental (low libido, low energy, low drive, sleeping in the afternoon even though I slept 8-9 hours a night, lack of morning erections, etc.) My bloodwork was great (low cholesterol, good thyroid, good glucose, etc.), I just had low T. 

It took me a while to find my TRT doctor because many of the docs I ran into thought the same way she did.

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## lovbyts

> My wife works for an insurance company and this doesn't suprise me. I haven't started yet but I have the prescription and she's totally against it. I tried comparing it to high blood pressure and diabetes and she said there's no comparison. There are deaths from high blood pressure, cholesterol and diabetes. There are no deaths from low T. She was telling me that, based on the news, treating low T can cause deaths. She's going by the recent news about heart attacks at the VA.
> 
> I told her about the symptoms and how it's connected to diabetes, altzheimer's (sp?), metabolic symdrome, artlesclerosis (sp?), high cholesterol, depression, and her response that they are connected but it's not proven. Her mindset is that anyone who has low T can change their diet, start exercising, lose some weight, stop smoking and drinking and be cured. I've noticed that alot of my friends believe that and even a few doctors. That's why I don't talk about testosterone outside of this message board. There's alot of misinformation about it and it looks like the misinformation is winning. I'm 6 feet, 195 lbs. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I exercise regularily and my diet is great but I still have low T. Her mindset, as well as my old docs, was that I was fine since my symptoms were mental (low libido, low energy, low drive, sleeping in the afternoon even though I slept 8-9 hours a night, lack of morning erections, etc.) My bloodwork was great (low cholesterol, good thyroid, good glucose, etc.), I just had low T. 
> 
> It took me a while to find my TRT doctor because many of the docs I ran into thought the same way she did.


Very simply, besides every thing you mentioned above being true; low T causes low Libido and for a man that's a death sentence alone. Yeah women may not get it but ask her how she would like to have her Tits cut off? How womanly would she feel then. That's a fair comparison. If she could prevent it wouldn't she?

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## BMW550i

> Very simply, besides every thing you mentioned above being true; low T causes low Libido and for a man that's a death sentence alone. Yeah women may not get it but ask her how she would like to have her Tits cut off? How womanly would she feel then. That's a fair comparison. If she could prevent it wouldn't she?


It's not worth trying to convince her. I didn't even waste time trying to convince my old doctor. She even argued with Dr. Barry Gordon when I went to see him. Dr. Gordon wrote a book called the Testosterone Syndrome. She has the mindset of a lot of my old docs. They feels that it's either a normal part of aging or just bad lifestyle.

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## kelkel

> I'd like to know the answer to this question too. It would be indeed ironic if Medicare and Medicaid were the only two that would cover.
> 
> And I'd like to know the whole story on this. 
> 
> I'd speculate that Big Insurance won't stop here. What's next? No coverage for illnesses connected to obesity - like diabetes, stroke, heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol? "We're not covering you because you eat too much."
> 
> I'll bet the next news we'll be hearing about this are big time court challenges.


You can bet that the congressional health plan covers it for all the dinosaurs there...




> My wife works for an insurance company and this doesn't suprise me. I haven't started yet but I have the prescription and she's totally against it. I tried comparing it to high blood pressure and diabetes and she said there's no comparison. There are deaths from high blood pressure, cholesterol and diabetes. There are no deaths from low T. She was telling me that, based on the news, treating low T can cause deaths. She's going by the recent news about heart attacks at the VA.
> 
> I told her about the symptoms and how it's connected to diabetes, altzheimer's (sp?), metabolic symdrome, artlesclerosis (sp?), high cholesterol, depression, and her response that they are connected but it's not proven. Her mindset is that anyone who has low T can change their diet, start exercising, lose some weight, stop smoking and drinking and be cured. I've noticed that alot of my friends believe that and even a few doctors. That's why I don't talk about testosterone outside of this message board. There's alot of misinformation about it and it looks like the misinformation is winning. I'm 6 feet, 195 lbs. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I exercise regularily and my diet is great but I still have low T. Her mindset, as well as my old docs, was that I was fine since my symptoms were mental (low libido, low energy, low drive, sleeping in the afternoon even though I slept 8-9 hours a night, lack of morning erections, etc.) My bloodwork was great (low cholesterol, good thyroid, good glucose, etc.), I just had low T. 
> 
> It took me a while to find my TRT doctor because many of the docs I ran into thought the same way she did.


Wow is she full of misinformation. Sorry you have to deal with that. It'll come full circle and haunt her when she actually needs added testosterone....

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## lovbyts

> Wow is she full of misinformation. Sorry you have to deal with that. It'll come full circle and haunt her when she actually needs added testosterone....


Good point. Ask her to explain to you what Menopause is and what can be done about it. Not tell her will it's just a natural part of aging and she should just deal with it.....

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## BMW550i

I did give her 4 books to check out (Gordon's book, Morgenthauler's book, Shippen's book and Nelson's Vergen's book). She is looking at them but she still has the same mindset is that it's elective and not life threatening. I think that has to be the turning point. As long as people think it's 'elective', then it'll be something that people won't take seriously like heart disease, high cholesterol or diabetes.

I think Gordon's book will help. He has some examples of people that he's treated (people with muscle wasting, etc) that he gave testosterone to and they regained their health. There was one guy who was bed-ridden and after months of treatment, he started walking with a cane.

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## frawnz

Good counterpoint with menopause. I'm pretty sure that no women have died from menopause, although I'm also pretty sure that a good number of men have (died due to a woman's menopause).

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## jasondd1

Ive always used my HSA plan to pay for my meds, blood work(even online places), and doctor visits. Look into Health savings plans. Its a high deductible health insurance plan with no copays and then an individual can max out $3300 a year tax free into a health savings checking account and pay out of pocket. If your deductible is say $2500 your always rolling over at least $800 to the next year and after.

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## lovbyts

> Good counterpoint with menopause. I'm pretty sure that no women have died from menopause, although I'm also pretty sure that a good number of men have (died due to a woman's menopause).


No one has ever died from HIV Aids either. Ask her of that shoukd not be treated. Her arguments are childish and selfish.

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## Beethoven

It's the insurance companies via the new healthcare law. It's not about healthcare it's about control. Abortions and birth control are being mandated. Trt is not a political issue at least on our side. It is because the only pub testosterone and any steroid gets is when these sports stars are being caught using them. Many people don't think there are legit medical conditions being treated by these except they are there only to enhance physical performance. 
Yet, marihuana is trying to be legalized in many other states and is now the new wonder drug.

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## BMW550i

She's not the only one making the arguments. I've had many a doctor turn me and my low t numbers away. I got rid of my doc of 10 years because he just outright refused to treat me. He said I would get prostate cancer, a heart attack and fly into roid rage . I've also read that many people on several messages boards, and this one too, having a hard time getting TRT and dealing with the same mindset that she had. I used her as an example but she's not the only one.

Testosterone is demonized in the media. When you see a positive commerical for low T, all they show is some guy fishing or talking about getting the old him back. Those are the big pharma commercials. People won't take that commerical seriously. Now, the other commericals are lawsuits and news reports about athletes and steriod abuse and people having heart attacks. People will take those commericals seriously. It's an uphill battle. That's why I'm not suprised this is happening. What really sucks is that I have Blue Cross so I guess I'll just wait for the hammer to drop.

Please understand that I'm not arguing against TRT. I'm just passing along what I've heard and also disappointed since Blue Cross is going to follow suit and they are my insurance provider.

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## Beethoven

BMW you are right. Low t is not completely understood, even within the Medical community. How many times on this forum there is a new member either being denied or being given a protocol that is severely outdated. We don't have a powerful enough lobby representing us, that's why as the ACA takes effect, we will find ourselves more and more on the outside.

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## Low Testosterone

> LT what exceptions are there?


As of now (this could change in the next few days/weeks) AndroGel is covered at tier 3, but that's it. Nothing else can carry any coverage, blood work, doctors visits, other meds, nothing.

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## Low Testosterone

> What if you're on trt because you have secondary hypogonadism? That's a medical necessity, not elective, isn't it? So they wouldn't cover any endo appointments?


Hypogonadism is not considered a serious problem by most in government, insurance or the medical community. Further, the definition of hypogonadism is argued and disagreed upon by most. For example, Your total testosterone levels are 400 ng/dl, most physicians and "experts" would say you do NOT have low testosterone . You can then find physicians who say you do have low testosterone if Free levels are below 15 pg/ml but those physicians rarely make the rules.

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## diesel101

Thank god for blue cross blue shield insurance no questions asked everything is covered (So Far anyways)

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## Low Testosterone

> Thank god for blue cross blue shield insurance no questions asked everything is covered (So Far anyways)


As mentioned above, Blue Cross Blue Shield will be following suit next. A lot of changes coming over the next 12+ months.

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## kelkel

> As of now (this could change in the next few days/weeks) AndroGel is covered at tier 3, but that's it. Nothing else can carry any coverage, blood work, doctors visits, other meds, nothing.


What about pathology related? Tumors, etc...

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## BMW550i

> What about pathology related? Tumors, etc...


Great question. What If I had a testicle removed or damaged? Or HIV? Or a pituitary tumor? 

Or, are the insurance companies basically saying, "You can live....it'll be a miserable existance, but you can live."

Also, what is Tier 3? Does that mena Androgel will still be covered but not injections? Why is that? The gels are more money.

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## Low Testosterone

> What about pathology related? Tumors, etc...


At this time I'm not sure. But if I were to guess I would say as this progresses the only way any type of TRT will be covered by insurance will be in cases of HIV or wasting.

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## Low Testosterone

> Great question. What If I had a testicle removed or damaged? Or HIV? Or a pituitary tumor? 
> 
> Or, are the insurance companies basically saying, "You can live....it'll be a miserable existance, but you can live."
> 
> Also, what is Tier 3? Does that mena Androgel will still be covered but not injections? Why is that? The gels are more money.


Tier 3 means higher copays, name brand only and medications that are not first line of defense. In short, if a medication is tier 3, such as Androgel , you'll be paying a lot for it.

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## Low Testosterone

> Great question. What If I had a testicle removed or damaged? Or HIV? Or a pituitary tumor? 
> 
> Or, are the insurance companies basically saying, "You can live....it'll be a miserable existance, but you can live."
> 
> Also, what is Tier 3? Does that mena Androgel will still be covered but not injections? Why is that? The gels are more money.


Tier 3 means higher copays, name brand only and medications that are not first line of defense. In short, if a medication is tier 3, such as Androgel , you'll be paying a lot for it.

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## BMW550i

> Tier 3 means higher copays, name brand only and medications that are not first line of defense. In short, if a medication is tier 3, such as Androgel, you'll be paying a lot for it.


Wow, I just called Blue Cross. they said that it's on Tier 2 right now with a $45 copay. The full price from Blue Cross is $354.93 and if it was on Tier 3, I'd have to pay half of that.

Man, that is horrible....I can't imagine pay over $175 and that's for the minimum monthly dosage.

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## Ryanmcd

My doc told me this was coming a few years ago as he deals with a lot of high end cash only patients, the nice thing is he has free samples for just about everything  :Smilie: 


Also what's next is if you have insurance and say you have high BP or are over weight they make you go to a weight loss doc, if you don't go you become non-compliant and your rates go up 2-300%.

Also you have to do a yearly physical and the doc faxes over the results weight / BP / HDL / LDL to get the insurance discount rate of say 20%. I guess it's good and bad, good because we have a lot of fat people, bad to have someone paying 3-500$ a month for insurance.

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## bullshark99

BMW,

Feel your pain and agree with your position on how TRT is viewed by many. Its difficult because its your spouse, not worth getting a divorce over ( I dont think???) but for a woman to tell a man that TRT or Low T is not real, just deal with it is like a man telling a woman that giving child birth is a breeze, just suck it up and shut up!
When your on TRT and horny as hell, banging the next store neighbor maybe then she will realize that its serious business and not just in your head..

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## 2Sox

> Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.


Can you give a link to the press release that informed you of this?

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## kelkel

> BMW,
> 
> Feel your pain and agree with your position on how TRT is viewed by many. Its difficult because its your spouse, not worth getting a divorce over ( I dont think???) but for a woman to tell a man that TRT or Low T is not real, just deal with it is like a man telling a woman that giving child birth is a breeze, just suck it up and shut up!
> When your on TRT and horny as hell, banging the next store neighbor maybe then she will realize that its serious business and not just in your head..


Epic post Bull!

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## kelkel

> At this time I'm not sure. But if I were to guess I would say as this progresses the only way any type of TRT will be covered by insurance will be in cases of HIV or wasting.


Amazing. All they will do by doing this is to increase the profits of clinics, especially the unscrupulous ones. It will also create an _even bigger black market_ for everything.

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## BMW550i

> BMW,
> 
> Feel your pain and agree with your position on how TRT is viewed by many. Its difficult because its your spouse, not worth getting a divorce over ( I dont think???) but for a woman to tell a man that TRT or Low T is not real, just deal with it is like a man telling a woman that giving child birth is a breeze, just suck it up and shut up!
> When your on TRT and horny as hell, banging the next store neighbor maybe then she will realize that its serious business and not just in your head..


Thanks but there's no pain. it's her opinion and she's entitled to it. I don't expect her to understand this. I'm more worried about the general public, insurance companies, healthcare providers etc. and their opinion. Those are the ones that matter. No matter how much she objects, it's not going to stop me, now if my insurance company decides not to cover it, that can put a serious dent in TRT for me.

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## Ryanmcd

TRT costs are not that high even w/o insurance ONCE you get it dialed in. 4 10ML a year @ 50$ each, HCG 30-40$ a month that's full price @ 5k unit, should last about 2 months for most, AI if needed and bloodwork, also insurance will still adjust the blood work cost just will not cover it, so you E2 test may list @ 120$ but after it's adjusted it's about 12$.

Also is this just on code 257.2? I am sure you can run blood work under other codes and get it covered.

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## xcraider37

> Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.



How can the insurance companies police the lab work, if I go in and get standard BW done, to check Cholesterol, thyroid and such that generally would include a hormone check? This would kill the biggest money maker of all the GELS. The test cyp is cheap enough that I can pay for my four month supply out of pocket. Insurance never covered my HCG and ADEX as you know is extremely cheap, I don't see this being a big deal for most of us.

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## V-ROID

Anyone filing any claim forms with Aflac to reimburse TRT charges? I have had Aflac for at least a few years, never made a claim, but every time the rep comes to visit and update plans he always tells me to file any and all claims. I would think Aflac would cover quite a bit. Will find out soon enough and report back. Will dump them for sure if they don't.

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## Ryanmcd

> How can the insurance companies police the lab work, if I go in and get standard BW done, to check Cholesterol, thyroid and such that generally would include a hormone check? This would kill the biggest money maker of all the GELS. The test cyp is cheap enough that I can pay for my four month supply out of pocket. Insurance never covered my HCG and ADEX as you know is extremely cheap, I don't see this being a big deal for most of us.


Read my last post  :Smilie:  The code now that's used at least for me is 257.2 I am sure you can use a different code and get it covered and if not just run it past insurance and let them adjust it anyway and pay out of pocket. My last blood work set was around $1100 after insurance adjusted it down I think it was $60, after insurance I paid about 30$ that was everything IGF1 test and anything else I could think of, 8 vile.

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## 2Sox

> TRT costs are not that high even w/o insurance ONCE you get it dialed in. 4 10ML a year @ 50$ each, HCG 30-40$ a month that's full price @ 5k unit, should last about 2 months for most, AI if needed and bloodwork, also insurance will still adjust the blood work cost just will not cover it, so you E2 test may list @ 120$ but after it's adjusted it's about 12$.
> 
> Also is this just on code 257.2? I am sure you can run blood work under other codes and get it covered.


Really good points! Remember a GoodRx coupon still gets you Test Cyp for $42/10mL vial and hCG runs about $23/5000iu vial overseas. AIs are also available and very reasonable from places like the sponsor. And what you mentioned about BW codes is something good to think about, if things turn bad.

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## Metalject

I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't started sooner and while we can argue that it's stupid it has to happen. Thanks to the new health care legislation, insurance companies absolutely have to start cutting some things out where they can. If not, they're done. In my opinion, this is 100% related to the new health care law.

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## kelkel

> In my opinion, this is 100% related to the new health care law.


Yep..

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## 2Sox

> I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't started sooner and while we can argue that it's stupid it has to happen. Thanks to the new health care legislation, insurance companies absolutely have to start cutting some things out where they can. If not, they're done. In my opinion, this is 100% related to the new health care law.


I completely disagree. And I'm surprised you guys are falling for this. With ACA, the insurance companies have 45 million new customers! Crying poverty is complete horse shit. The bylaws of every corporation states that the sole purpose of corporate existence is PROFIT - and they will get it any way they can. Your conclusion is completely unscientific. If ACA wasn't around, what excuse would people have and who would they blame? The truth is staring us in the face. Profit economics, pure and simple.

Turn of Rush Limbaugh and do some independent research.

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## 2Sox

> Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.


I'd still like to see the press release you learned of this from.

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## Metalject

> I completely disagree. And I'm surprised you guys are falling for this. With ACA, the insurance companies have 45 million new customers! Crying poverty is complete horse shit. The bylaws of every corporation states that the sole purpose of corporate existence is PROFIT - and they will get it any way they can. Your conclusion is completely unscientific. If ACA wasn't around, what excuse would people have and who would they blame? The truth is staring us in the face. Profit economics, pure and simple.
> 
> Turn of Rush Limbaugh and do some independent research.


45million new customers? How do you figure? Only 5million have signed up and less than 20% have paid a premium. But regardless of the number, preexisting conditions are covered, which means more money out, which means something's going to get cut somewhere.

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## bullshark99

My 20+ plus years in the insurance industry agree wholeheartedly with Metalject on this. Common sense dictates that if there are no longer any pre-x conditions, everything covered from the get go, either premiums substantially rise or something gets cut out!
Last I looked it was 5 mil, not 45 mil and out of those I would love to see how many of them were previously uninsurable??
Thank god for the likes of the Rush Limboughs like him or not but someone needs to inform people of "common sense" so they don't fall for the non-sense this President and all his side kicks ( Nancy Pelosi ect) advocate.
Anyone that is upset that TRT is no longer covered better "buckle up" because this is just the beginning ? Next, there gonna make us turn all our trophies in...LOL

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## GFA

Insurance is the reason scripts are so expensive to begin eith. Think androgel will be $350 a bottle after insurance stops paying for it? Nope. It will drop down to what people pay for otc stuff now if they want to continue to sell it. 

Look at zertex or claritin as examples.

Anyway with goodrx, $42 for 10ml/200mg ml is only $2 a week for testosterone . I spend more multivitamins.

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## 2Sox

> My 20+ plus years in the insurance industry agree wholeheartedly with Metalject on this. Common sense dictates that if there are no longer any pre-x conditions, everything covered from the get go, either premiums substantially rise or something gets cut out!
> Last I looked it was 5 mil, not 45 mil and out of those I would love to see how many of them were previously uninsurable??
> Thank god for the likes of the Rush Limboughs like him or not but someone needs to inform people of "common sense" so they don't fall for the non-sense this President and all his side kicks ( Nancy Pelosi ect) advocate.
> Anyone that is upset that TRT is no longer covered better "buckle up" because this is just the beginning ? Next, there gonna make us turn all our trophies in...LOL


Twenty years or twenty days in the insurance industry - facts are facts. The ACA is law. All uninsured Americans are required to be covered. Five people to date or five million to date. It doesn't matter. There will be 45 million uninsured Americans on the rolls of insurance companies in due course. Fact. And the profits for corporations will be rolling in - are rolling in now. Here are a few recent representative articles that illustrates the FACT that insurance companies will be rolling in $$$ big time - even covering the dreaded pre-existing conditions of hundreds of thousands of people (who could be people close to you - maybe a relative - who deserve to be covered):

Obamacare could be worth more than $90 billion to the insurance industry

Despite Glitches, Obamacare Profit Windfall To Insurers Well Underway - Forbes

And here is an article about Michael Moore who CRITICIZED the ACA for giving insurance companies TOO MUCH profits! Yes, Michael Moore critical of ACA!

Michael Moore: Obamacare sends over $100 billion annually to insurers | PunditFact

Metalject, Bullshark,
Opinions are fine but you ought to clearly state them as such. As it stands, your comments are based on faulty logic, come from previous biases, and can be misleading. This is not useful to anyone. When this forum has been most useful it has been when it dealt in facts. When conclusions based upon individual experience have been discussed, these too have been extremely useful - and often life saving. When there has been conjecture, it has been a waste of time. Of course, this is all my opinion.

Now if you want to continue with your line of reasoning (which is incredibly insensitive) and which I might add has no factual basis as the above articles make eminently clear, maybe we should go back to the insurance system we had just replaced. No insurance for pre-existing conditions so that you could pay a little less for your TRT treatment. What's the difference? Just let a few people die for our comfort. Something to be really proud of. It's disgraceful that a thought like this could even enter a person's mind. Disgusting, actually. Oh. My opinion.

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## bullshark99

I didn't realize you were appointed in charge of this forum 2sox, clearly you have too much time on your hands. Oh and your right, if someone put it in print, it must be true, please...

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## 2Sox

As interesting as this thread has been, LowT has still not responded to my request that he provide documentation of the statements in his original post of this morning. If there are no facts to substantiate his claims - and I recognize that these facts might exist - this whole thread has been essentially devoted to a rumor. 

Not to be tiresome, but IMO if we make a statement, we ought to have something to back it up - merely because it's the respectful thing to do.

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## 2Sox

> I didn't realize you were appointed in charge of this forum 2sox, clearly you have too much time on your hands. Oh and your right, if someone put it in print, it must be true, please...


Isn't it interesting that when a person has nothing to defend their position with, they resort to personal attacks? 

Anyway, I respect the right to your opinion.

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## kelkel

Easy guys. Please.

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## 2Sox

> Easy guys. Please.


Everything's good, Kel.

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## Rusty11

> I'd still like to see the press release you learned of this from.


I searched and searched.....nothing that I could find. 
IF this is true and blue cross decides to stop covering my Testim, I'll just get my doc to prescribe test cyp-much cheaper out of pocket. He's already offered it, but my gel has kept me good for 3+ years.

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## Metalject

> Twenty years or twenty days in the insurance industry - facts are facts. The ACA is law. All uninsured Americans are required to be covered. Five people to date or five million to date. It doesn't matter. There will be 45 million uninsured Americans on the rolls of insurance companies in due course. Fact. And the profits for corporations will be rolling in - are rolling in now. Here are a few recent representative articles that illustrates the FACT that insurance companies will be rolling in $$$ big time - even covering the dreaded pre-existing conditions of hundreds of thousands of people (who could be people close to you - maybe a relative - who deserve to be covered):
> 
> Obamacare could be worth more than $90 billion to the insurance industry
> 
> Despite Glitches, Obamacare Profit Windfall To Insurers Well Underway - Forbes
> 
> And here is an article about Michael Moore who CRITICIZED the ACA for giving insurance companies TOO MUCH profits! Yes, Michael Moore critical of ACA!
> 
> Michael Moore: Obamacare sends over $100 billion annually to insurers | PunditFact
> ...


Facts are important, I wouldn't argue against that, but there are still a lot of missing facts on both sides of the argument. For example, 45million covered, that's not a fact until it happens. As of now, the individual mandate is not in effect. This we can all agree on as fact. As for opinion, I will be surprised if 45million who weren't covered are, because that would mean they'd have to force those 45million to signup and pay. Force of that nature works in many places around the world, but the American mindset is different. But again, that is an opinion and time will tell. 

As far as my opinions on the topic, I don't listen to Rush or any of the talking heads. My opinion is based simply on what I see and how I perceive it. Again, in my opinion, this is one of the biggest problems in America, people get their opinions from the talking heads they like. It's become a team type thing far more so than let's all look at what is and judge for ourselves. And once again, in my opinion, I find it apathetic. I'm not accusing you (2sox) of apathy....that comment was more of a general comment.

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## hawk14dl

I just need to know, is low t going to continue being 199 a month? Won't affect me if so

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## Beethoven

This is not about insurance. If you are mandated to cover EVERYONE regardless of pre existing or not, or group or not, it's NOT insurance, it's forced socialized medicine. THAT IMHO IS the end game. Fact, this legislation was NOT bi partisan. Fact, there have only been about 5 million people sign up. Fact, they keep postponing the individual mandate because no one is signing up de spite all the star studded psa's. Fact, no one else's insurance premiums have dropped at all, much less the $2500 that was promised. (Unless you're subsidized). Fact, almost every politician involved in this fiasco is either out of office or distancing him or herself from this legislation. A previous post said it well, if you are overweight and have ANY medical issues arise from that, you will be FORCED to lose weight or pay extra. If your medical condition does not have a strong lobby or voting block, they are not going to care. Think not? Abortion and birth control are being FORCED on the Catholic entities that offer insurance. That is fact. Birth control and abortion have a more far reaching lobby than trt. It is what it is. HIV patients will be afforded trt where hypo gonadal males aren't? Think about that lobby for a second. I hate politics........

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## 2Sox

> Facts are important, I wouldn't argue against that, but there are still a lot of missing facts on both sides of the argument. For example, 45million covered, that's not a fact until it happens. As of now, the individual mandate is not in effect. This we can all agree on as fact. As for opinion, I will be surprised if 45million who weren't covered are, because that would mean they'd have to force those 45million to signup and pay. Force of that nature works in many places around the world, but the American mindset is different. But again, that is an opinion and time will tell. 
> 
> As far as my opinions on the topic, I don't listen to Rush or any of the talking heads. My opinion is based simply on what I see and how I perceive it. Again, in my opinion, this is one of the biggest problems in America, people get their opinions from the talking heads they like. It's become a team type thing far more so than let's all look at what is and judge for ourselves. And once again, in my opinion, I find it apathetic. I'm not accusing you (2sox) of apathy....that comment was more of a general comment.


Thanks for the clarification. You are completely right; we all ought to judge for ourselves and use our critical minds to arrive at our conclusions. Often, it's not easy finding what's true. I've studied propaganda and it's insidious. It always works best on lazy, uninquisitive minds that find it easier to believe the slogans and talking points than to dig for the facts to expose what's true. (I'd imagine most of us have made this mistake sometime in our lives.) Joseph Goebbels was a master of it. I paraphrase his motto, "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth." I've also seen that these lies can appeal to an evil, dark side of us that is waiting for the encouragement to come out. History bears this out. It happened in Germany in the 1930's, it happened in Rwanda, in Darfur and it can happen anywhere. We've got to be on our toes because it's all to easy to fall for it.

As a side note; Bullshark is right. I do have a great deal of time on my hands; I'm recently retired. Most often it has been a blessing. It's given me more time to spend at the gym and in the outdoors. It's also given me the time to catch up on my reading. I also now have the luxury of learning a great deal more online and on this forum and writing these forum posts - probably too lengthy, at times - and doing the research for them. And I can now devote more time to my seasonal sideline business which keeps me very busy all summer.

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## sfgiantsfan55

and just how can one purchase stock for lowtestosterone.com ?

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## 38onTRT

Time to start stocking up on some Testosterone Undecanoate! Nebido for those that are in the UK where it is legal and sold.. The US, well its black market available.. 





> It will also create an _even bigger black market_ for everything.

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## kelkel

> As a side note; Bullshark is right. I do have a great deal of time on my hands; I'm recently retired. Most often it has been a blessing. It's given me more time to spend at the gym and in the outdoors. It's also given me the time to catch up on my reading. I also now have the luxury of learning a great deal more online and on this forum and writing these forum posts - probably too lengthy, at times - and doing the research for them. And I can now devote more time to my seasonal sideline business which keeps me very busy all summer.


What you do here is appreciated.




> Time to start stocking up on some Testosterone Undecanoate! Nebido for those that are in the UK where it is legal and sold.. The *US, well its black market available*..


It's now available under the name "Aveed" in the U.S. Problem is they reduced the dosage by one-fourth which will ultimately result in many unhappy people.....imho.

----------


## APIs

> Now if you want to continue with your line of reasoning (which is incredibly insensitive) and which I might add has no factual basis as the above articles make eminently clear, maybe we should go back to the insurance system we had just replaced. No insurance for pre-existing conditions so that you could pay a little less for your TRT treatment. What's the difference? Just let a few people die for our comfort. Something to be really proud of. It's disgraceful that a thought like this could even enter a person's mind. Disgusting, actually. Oh. My opinion.


Nothing against 2Sox, but proponents of the new system always seem to forget one thing. Who's actually paying for a large part of this new coverage? As a small business owner, I can tell you without question it's not the general public. I am along with all the other small business entities in this country. I dont need to quote an article or provide some link either, as I actually write the checks. My business health coverage increased by 24% upon renewal this past December. If that weren't enough, the plan we originally had was then dropped and replaced with one that is one-tier lower in quality, most co-pays were doubled and our yearly deductible was increased by $300 for each individual on the plan. Not to mention, out-patient surgical services now have a $1,000.00 deductible where none existed before. Now is this progressive and/or fair? I guess that depends on how far left someone leans. I'm not going to argue on pre-existing conditions etc., but I'll always argue that no-one has the right to take our hard-earned money to benefit someone down the street who more than likely has made bad decisions in his or her life.

----------


## 2Sox

> Nothing against 2Sox, but proponents of the new system always seem to forget one thing. Who's actually paying for a large part of this new coverage? As a small business owner, I can tell you without question it's not the general public. I am along with all the other small business entities in this country. I dont need to quote an article or provide some link either, as I actually write the checks. My business health coverage increased by 24% upon renewal this past December. If that weren't enough, the plan we originally had was then dropped and replaced with one that is one-tier lower in quality, most co-pays were doubled and our yearly deductible was increased by $300 for each individual on the plan. Not to mention, out-patient surgical services now have a $1,000.00 deductible where none existed before. Now is this progressive and/or fair? I guess that depends on how far left someone leans. I'm not going to argue on pre-existing conditions etc., but I'll always argue that no-one has the right to take our hard-earned money to benefit someone down the street who more than likely has made bad decisions in his or her life.


API,

I'm with you on most of what you say. But let's fix this by having the insurance companies pick up the tab, not guys like you or people who can't even afford to pay their rents because of poverty wages. All we do is mandate less profits for them. (Ha! Maybe your grandchildren might get to see this.) Bottom line is now everyone has insurance and the vast majority of people are better off. My view is that we should have a universal single payer system in place just like the VA. But that's for another time... Maybe sooner that we may think.

Something else. The champions of profit economics want to pit people against each other, so that we lose sight of the main thing. Is the profit motive and power of the corporations that wield too much power. Until there is no more of "profits over people" we've got to keep our eye on the ball.

----------


## Low Testosterone

> I'd still like to see the press release you learned of this from.


This information came directly from Humana in a letter sent out to all physicians.

----------


## APIs

> API,
> 
> I'm with you on most of what you say. *But let's fix this by having the insurance companies pick up the tab, not guys like you or people who can't even afford to pay their rents because of poverty wages. All we do is mandate less profits for them.* (Ha! Maybe your grandchildren might get to see this.) Bottom line is now everyone has insurance and the vast majority of people are better off. My view is that we should have a universal single payer system in place just like the VA. But that's for another time... Maybe sooner that we may think.
> 
> Something else. *The champions of profit economics want to pit people against each other, so that we lose sight of the main thing. Is the profit motive and power of the corporations that wield too much power. Until there is no more of "profits over people" we've got to keep our eye on the ball.*


Sorry, but your basic logic here is both skewed & self-serving. In a free market economy business should never be overly responsible to pay for any government sponsored social program. This core value of having small-government is what built this country economically. Argue all you want, but the concept of being rewarded for one's hard work without being overly taxed are what built this great country after WWII. It's also very naive & short sighted to say the Insurance industry should pay for this considering the lobbying power they have in Washington. That was never going to happen anyway. Regardless of the social agenda, in the end, no-one has the right to tell me or any business owner what we should do with *our* profits. As I recently heard, it seems that ultra-liberals are always willing to give you the shirt off another man's back...

----------


## dreadnok89

I'm a dope. Explain to me what does obamacare have to do with private insurance companies? This slime balls have been trying for years to get out of this. Now why is it that a transexual can get testosterone easier than a male that needs the hormone

----------


## Metalject

> I'm a dope. Explain to me what does obamacare have to do with private insurance companies? This slime balls have been trying for years to get out of this. Now why is it that a transexual can get testosterone easier than a male that needs the hormone


Simple, because society has become so backassward that such women are considered to be trapped in a condition that demands medical attention. They have a condition that they did not choose (being trapped in a woman's body), that is the mindset. As for a man with low test, suck it up. Why do you need more testosterone ? Why are you so barbaric? That's the mindset.

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## 2Sox

> Sorry, but *your basic logic here is both skewed & self-serving*. In a free market economy business should never be overly responsible to pay for any government sponsored social program. This core value of having small-government is what built this country economically. Argue all you want, but the concept of being rewarded for one's hard work without being overly taxed are what built this great country after WWII. It's also very naive & short sighted to say the Insurance industry should pay for this considering the lobbying power they have in Washington. That was never going to happen anyway. Regardless of the social agenda, in the end, no-one has the right to tell me or any business owner what we should do with *our* profits. As I recently heard, it seems that ultra-liberals are always willing to give you the shirt off another man's back...


If you go back and look at what I said, you'll see we're both on the same page. And I heartily disagree with you in what I bolded above. What I wrote was very carefully thought out. There is nothing at all skewed or self serving in what I said and there is no evidence at all for your statement. What I basically said is for people to start thinking about things from another perspective. We have to change our mindset and think about what is fair - what is good will for PEOPLE. "What does a person deserve by being a person?" - the late educator, Eli Siegel asked. That's what the framers did in both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. If you read the texts of both, this comes through very clearly. Nothing in either document makes reference to corporations or profits. And actually, yes, "no taxation without representation" was one of the rallying cries for the Declaratioin of Independence - way before WW2. 

And I would think a businessman like yourself would be the last person to rationalize away change for the better because of the power of lobbyists. Generations from now, our ancestors will look back on this time in history and see lobbyists and profit economics for what they are - an obscenity. Most of us already have a sense of this now. So never say never, API.

These beautiful words of the Constitution made clear the basis on which our country was founded: 
_We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,_

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Any uninsured person will inevitably find it impossible to obtain any of these. With ACA - even with all its flaws - the government did its job - fulfilled its responsibility. And it could do even better.

Corporations by their very nature are bad for people because - as I indicated in a previous post - the sole purpose of their existence is profit. (It is their sole function and they can do nothing else because it is written in their bylaws.) And that includes profit over the welfare of individuals. Yes, I know, they provide jobs. But if slavery was legal, they'd be overjoyed. In fact, the very nature of profit economics is a step away from slavery: Wring out as much as you can from each worker and pay as little as you can. I don't want to be insensitive but I'm going to say this to make a strong point: The only difference between that and slavery is workers don't get whipped because there are laws, and slaves don't get paid. If you worked for a living, you've been there. We've got to change our mindset from what's profitable to what's ethical.

I completely agree; no one has the right to tell you, a small business owner, what to do with his profits. But I have no sympathy for the insurance and pharmaceutical corporations and the obscene profits they make at the expense of human lives. What I suggest is a very simple remedy. Instead of giving X dividends to their shareholders, mandate that they be reduced a little, the sum of which would be put into the healthcare pot. Who will suffer? Just a few billionaires. Who will benefit? Millions. People we know and don't know. Lives will be better. Lives will be saved. 

Remember that any dream can become a reality if we work hard enough for it.

----------


## Metalject

> If you go back and look at what I said, you'll see we're both on the same page. And I heartily disagree with you in what I bolded above. What I wrote was very carefully thought out. There is nothing at all skewed or self serving in what I said and there is no evidence at all for your statement. What I basically said is for people to start thinking about things from another perspective. We have to change our mindset and think about what is fair - what is good will for PEOPLE. "What does a person deserve by being a person?" - the late educator, Eli Siegel asked. That's what the framers did in both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. If you read the texts of both, this comes through very clearly. Nothing in either document makes reference to corporations or profits. And actually, yes, "no taxation without representation" was one of the rallying cries for the Declaratioin of Independence - way before WW2. 
> 
> And I would think a businessman like yourself would be the last person to rationalize away change for the better because of the power of lobbyists. Generations from now, our ancestors will look back on this time in history and see lobbyists and profit economics for what they are - an obscenity. Most of us already have a sense of this now. So never say never, API.
> 
> These beautiful words of the Constitution made clear the basis on which our country was founded: 
> _We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,_
> *
> Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Any uninsured person will inevitably find it impossible to obtain any of these. With ACA - even with all its flaws - the government did its job - fulfilled its responsibility. And it could do even better.*
> 
> ...


Above in red, that is the split in the U.S. and is why it's impossible for people to agree. Your comment states the government has a job to provide something, a service, a right or whatever else it can be labeled. Whereas the other half of the country would argue government has no right to do any of that. That is the uniqueness of the U.S. unlike other countries, government wasn't set up to provide, it was merely setup so that people could ensure they were free to provide for themselves. Life, you have the right to be born and to maintain that life. Liberty, you have the right to live as you see fit with the life you were given. Happiness, you have the right to use your liberty to be happy so as long as it does not infringe on the liberty or life of another. When it comes to the basis of America, that's all there is. Simple, yes and anything that complicates it beyond that is creating something new.

----------


## 2Sox

> Above in red, that is the split in the U.S. and is why it's impossible for people to agree. Your comment states the government has a job to provide something, a service, a right or whatever else it can be labeled. Whereas the other half of the country would argue government has no right to do any of that. That is the uniqueness of the U.S. unlike other countries, government wasn't set up to provide, it was merely setup so that people could ensure they were free to provide for themselves. Life, you have the right to be born and to maintain that life. Liberty, you have the right to live as you see fit with the life you were given. Happiness, you have the right to use your liberty to be happy so as long as it does not infringe on the liberty or life of another. When it comes to the basis of America, that's all there is. Simple, yes and anything that complicates it beyond that is creating something new.


I'm afraid that factually and substantively, you're absolutely incorrect, as anyone who studies the constitution would point out. But of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I would suggest you look at what I wrote one more time. If you take a closer look, I believe it would help you think out of the box. And look at both documents. You'll be surprised how many times the word "provide" is used.

----------


## 2Sox

> This information came directly from Humana in a letter sent out to all physicians.


Possible to attach a pdf?

----------


## 38onTRT

It is what it is, we are all in this together.. Ranting and raving about it here changes nothing. If Testosterone prices skyrocket, then either pay the high prices, get it on the black market or learn to make it yourself. A script form the Doc costs $0. 

Why all the arguing and trying to prove yourself right? Come on fellas, lets learn something and/ or teach people something in lieu of arguing..  :Smilie:

----------


## APIs

> Why all the arguing and trying to prove yourself right? Come on fellas, lets learn something and/ or teach people something in lieu of arguing..


x2. He's right guys. We should *all* stick to the following topic(s); TRT, reversing testicular shrinkage & keeping our d*cks hard (arguably most important)...

----------


## 2Sox

> x2. stick to the following topic(s); TRT, reversing testicular shrinkage & keeping our d*cks hard (arguably most important)...


Great to focus on.  :Clap:

----------


## 2Sox

> Why all the arguing and trying to prove yourself right? Come on fellas, lets learn something and/ or teach people something in lieu of arguing..


38,
I really don't see this as arguing at all. I think it would be very unfortunate to interpret every disagreement here as an argument. I love this forum and although we may not all agree on everything, I respect every person who sincerely contributes his thoughts and ideas here for the benefit of the members. I feel it's so important to encourage every exchange of views that we can on varying subjects. And I think the recent discussion/debate accomplished some of that. I know I learned a lot. I hope others learned from me.

----------


## Beethoven

> x2. He's right guys. We should *all* stick to the following topic(s); TRT, reversing testicular shrinkage & keeping our d*cks hard (arguably most important)...


I agree with both metalject and API. This discussion sometimes has to take place because under the guise of fairness and what not, WE the common joe who WORK for our living and don't live of the public dime pay for. Yes pay for. Profit is NOT an evil thing. Does anyone here work for free? The biggest people in this country that always put down profits happen to be among the richest. Go figure. The reason THIS country is or at least was the world superpower was not socialist principles. It was our open and free economy. Workers are not slaves and are always free to quit their job and move on. A business owner does jot OWE the public anything. That is why they pay taxes, and in turn their employees pay taxes, the goods they purchase in doing business is taxed, the product they produce is taxed. Everyone is free to do what they want with their own money. The problem as it relates to trt is that we are not an important voting block because, as you see here, we are made up of different sorts. Yet we wonder why a transgender person can get test and we don't? Voting block and lobby. This type of socialist behavior is akin to this: your insurance now doesn't cover your trt, just go knock on your neighbors door and get him to pay for it. This is a joke, 45 million people are NOT covered by the ACA. Hence the small enrollment numbers and all the waivers given out. Not to mention the MANDATE not being enforced. If we want to fix this thing, we as a group have to unite among our common ground, trt, and recognize that this isn't going to get any better by itself. These are not petty differences, it's our health and Washington doesn't give a damn.

----------


## Metalject

> I'm afraid that factually and substantively, you're absolutely incorrect, as anyone who studies the constitution would point out. But of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I would suggest you look at what I wrote one more time. If you take a closer look, I believe it would help you think out of the box. And look at both documents. You'll be surprised how many times the word "provide" is used.


You are correct in that the word "Provide" is used a handful of times or so. Such as "provide defense" "provide punishment for counterfeiting currency", among others. And people often argue about what this or that means, what was implied, what was intended, etc. I tend to be far more on the literal side. I do not think much was left with the idea that future generations would need to interpret anything at all; that's an idea the modern era has created to help shift various things; all sides of the political spectrum are guilty. 

Anyway, I'll admit, I do not delve into this type of stuff as much as I used to. My education, constitutional law. I went to school for the sole purpose of working in that field. Not that it makes me an expert. But I have never practiced any form of law...like many here I got so sucked into bodybuilding that there was nothing left. I now work in healthcare...funny when you think about it. Life's just weird sometimes.

----------


## Metalject

> 38,
> I really don't see this as arguing at all. I think it would be very unfortunate to interpret every disagreement here as an argument. I love this forum and although we may not all agree on everything, I respect every person who sincerely contributes his thoughts and ideas here for the benefit of the members. I feel it's so important to encourage every exchange of views that we can on varying subjects. And I think the recent discussion/debate accomplished some of that. I know I learned a lot. I hope others learned from me.


Agreed. I don't see disagreements as arguments. If anything, I appreciate when people can talk back and forth with me when we don't agree. If we all agree and pat each other on the back, generally that is a fake and hollow conversation.

----------


## kelkel

Personally I think it's been an outstanding thread full of diverse, educated opinions by respected members. It opens our eyes to the perspectives of others, which is a good thing and something that helps make this forum both fun and educational. 

Now, where's Hoggage with a bikini pic......

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## hawk14dl

Who needs a bikini pic when we have your avi Kel?

----------


## lovbyts

> Twenty years or twenty days in the insurance industry - facts are facts. The ACA is law. All uninsured Americans are required to be covered. Five people to date or five million to date. It doesn't matter. There will be 45 million uninsured Americans on the rolls of insurance companies in due course. Fact. And the profits for corporations will be rolling in - are rolling in now. Here are a few recent representative articles that illustrates the FACT that insurance companies will be rolling in $$$ big time - even covering the dreaded pre-existing conditions of hundreds of thousands of people (who could be people close to you - maybe a relative - who deserve to be covered):
> 
> Obamacare could be worth more than $90 billion to the insurance industry
> 
> Despite Glitches, Obamacare Profit Windfall To Insurers Well Underway - Forbes
> 
> And here is an article about Michael Moore who CRITICIZED the ACA for giving insurance companies TOO MUCH profits! Yes, Michael Moore critical of ACA!
> 
> Michael Moore: Obamacare sends over $100 billion annually to insurers | PunditFact
> ...


And they have spent more on advertising and Obamacare setup to pay for insurance for every person who was not insured for at least 10 years not counting future spending. Typical government mentality, spend 10x more than you will make.

So, if they (government) decided you had to turn over your 1st born to them so they can use them for xyz you would just be OK with that also or compliant? Just because they have made it law does not mean it's right and that we the people should just accept it.

It's turning into everything the conspiracy theorist said it would 5 years ago. The main purpose is to fail so the government will force everyone to go to a single payer plan. Just wait and see. More and more news and talk shows are starting to report this probability. You may so no it wont but I bet 5 years ago you said it would not be the mess it is now but you are still in denial.

----------


## Beethoven

> And they have spent more on advertising and Obamacare setup to pay for insurance for every person who was not insured for at least 10 years not counting future spending. Typical government mentality, spend 10x more than you will make.
> 
> So, if they (government) decided you had to turn over your 1st born to them so they can use them for xyz you would just be OK with that also or compliant? Just because they have made it law does not mean it's right and that we the people should just accept it.
> 
> It's turning into everything the conspiracy theorist said it would 5 years ago. The main purpose is to fail so the government will force everyone to go to a single payer plan. Just wait and see. More and more news and talk shows are starting to report this probability. You may so no it wont but I bet 5 years ago you said it would not be the mess it is now but you are still in denial.


That is the end game, single payer. The government wants to take over 1/6 of the nations economy for what, because they care for us so much? No. They see insurance and their profits and see a whole lot of money for them, cutting out the middle man of course. (Insurance). Only after they have screwed it up and the people are really outraged, then riding in on their white horse will be government to take it over. And in comes a pale horse............

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## kelkel

> That is the end game, single payer. The government wants to take over 1/6 of the nations economy for what, because they care for us so much? No. They see insurance and their profits and see a whole lot of money for them, cutting out the middle man of course. (Insurance). Only after they have screwed it up and the people are really outraged, then riding in on their white horse will be government to take it over. *And in comes a pale horse*............



This horse? 

Pale Rider And Hell followed with him YouTube - YouTube

----------


## Beethoven

> This horse? 
> 
> Pale Rider And Hell followed with him YouTube - YouTube


Ah great pick up.........

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## kelkel

> Ah great pick up.........


Great movie.

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## bullshark99

Well thats refreashing!! I see some members get it... A single payer system LOL, just what this nation needs, bigger government and more interference! Wouldnt the joke or irony be on everyone who wants this when the day comes and the government chooses who receives treatment based on there silly little tables. Oh, sorry your 52, thats too old to receive a kidney transplant, needs to go to the 25yr old. Doesnt matter that you were a well respected person in the community who paid there taxes for decades, kidney is going to the unemployed drug user with 2 felonies because he's younger.
A bit of an exggeration, but might not be so far fetched when you take a good look at some of the existing government run programs. Alot of talk above on how corporate profits are so "evil" the root of all the countries problems. Last i looked our Jails are full of politicians, I reside in the great state of illinois, cant remember the last time we had a governor that didnt end up in jail. Politicians clearly have their own agenda's in many cases, cant imagine putting our healthcare in their hands?

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## Beethoven

> Well thats refreashing!! I see some members get it... A single payer system LOL, just what this nation needs, bigger government and more interference! Wouldnt the joke or irony be on everyone who wants this when the day comes and the government chooses who receives treatment based on there silly little tables. Oh, sorry your 52, thats too old to receive a kidney transplant, needs to go to the 25yr old. Doesnt matter that you were a well respected person in the community who paid there taxes for decades, kidney is going to the unemployed drug user with 2 felonies because he's younger.
> A bit of an exggeration, but might not be so far fetched when you take a good look at some of the existing government run programs. Alot of talk above on how corporate profits are so "evil" the root of all the countries problems. Last i looked our Jails are full of politicians, I reside in the great state of illinois, cant remember the last time we had a governor that didnt end up in jail. Politicians clearly have their own agenda's in many cases, cant imagine putting our healthcare in their hands?


Yes, I still remember Blago. Lol. But you are right, rationing will become part of the decision making process. If you're old, retired and don't produce, meaning work and pay taxes, you will be put behind a younger citizen who is. And if you're terminal, forget everything else and take a pill. A government big enough to give what you want is big enough to take it all from you.

----------


## Beethoven

Anyone pushing for single payer should read this. 
The Checkup - Canadian official has heart surgery -- in the U.S.

----------


## Ryanmcd

....

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## dreadnok89

I'm not covered pre obamacare, and I pay a shitload, and besides you already pay.

----------


## 2Sox

> Anyone pushing for single payer should read this. 
> The Checkup - Canadian official has heart surgery -- in the U.S.


Danny Williams is a billionaire on par with Michael Bloomberg who donates his salary to charity.
Danny Williams, Canadian Official, Seeks Heart Surgery In US

I spoke in a previous post that we have to take care not to be lazy and uninquisitive but look past the slogans and talking points, and not only listen to what we want to hear because it agrees with our previous biases. Let's fight that tendency. Here from a Canadian paper. You can certainly find differing opinions everywhere. But one has to look in order to find what's true.

Williams's heart surgery choice was based on ignorance - The Globe and Mail

And by the way, we have a very successful single payer system in the U.S., administered by the government and from my knowledge it works great. I have many friends who are Vets and doctors who I have known who worked there, and they all love it - the V.A.

----------


## dhickey

> And by the way, we have a very successful single payer system in the U.S., administered by the government and from my knowledge it works great. I have many friends who are Vets and doctors who I have known who worked there, and they all love it - the V.A.


At what cost? Everything our gov't is involved in automatically includes massive inefficiency, waste, fraud and corruption. Everything. That's why they should be limited to only services that are absolutely essential for them to provide. The reason our health care system is so ungodly expensive is because of gov't regulation and intervention. Now we what them even more involved? Lunacy.

----------


## bullshark99

^^^^^another great post! The government should with out a doubt be in charge of defense and monetary policy/currency. Other than that, most every other service should be farmed out to the private sector. Oh how interesting it would be if the private sector and free enterprise were able to compete for the rest of the services???

----------


## Metalject

> Danny Williams is a billionaire on par with Michael Bloomberg who donates his salary to charity.
> Danny Williams, Canadian Official, Seeks Heart Surgery In US
> 
> I spoke in a previous post that we have to take care not to be lazy and uninquisitive but look past the slogans and talking points, and not only listen to what we want to hear because it agrees with our previous biases. Let's fight that tendency. Here from a Canadian paper. You can certainly find differing opinions everywhere. But one has to look in order to find what's true.
> 
> Williams's heart surgery choice was based on ignorance - The Globe and Mail
> 
> And by the way, we have a very successful single payer system in the U.S., administered by the government and from my knowledge it works great. I have many friends who are Vets and doctors who I have known who worked there, and they all love it - the V.A.


I have yet to hear of anyone call the V.A. a quality place. Not anyone I know anyway.

----------


## 2Sox

> At what cost? _Everything our gov't is involved in automatically includes massive inefficiency, waste, fraud and corruption. Everything._ *Unsubstantiated generalization.*
> 
> _That's why they should be limited to only services that are absolutely essential for them to provide._  *Opinion. State it as such*
> 
> _The reason our health care system is so ungodly expensive is because of gov't regulation and intervention._ *Another unsubstantiated generalization with an opinion thrown in.* Now we what them even more involved? _Lunacy._ *Opinion.*


This is very frustrating. How can an intelligent exchange take place with comments such as these? In my opinion, substantiating you claims would be the sensible thing to do, not to mention common courtesy. No one can debate opinions - only facts. And substantiated facts usually make clear who is in the right in no time at all.

----------


## 2Sox

> I have yet to hear of anyone call the V.A. a quality place. Not anyone I know anyway.


Wait awhile. You might be surprised.

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## Metalject

> At what cost? Everything our gov't is involved in automatically includes massive inefficiency, waste, fraud and corruption. Everything. *Unsubstantiated generalization.*
> 
> *There are things government does well, but 17trillion in debt strongly lends to the idea of massive waste. As far as fraud and corruption, I don't care who's in power, I don't see how anyone could argue that the government isn't anything but fraud and corruption. That's not to say there are no good people in government, but, and yes this is my opinion, the American system of government is a disastrous mess and nowhere close does it resemble what it was intended to be. The mere fact that we're discussing this on a federal level and that states aren't allowed to decide this for themselves is proof of that. 
> *
> 
> That's why they should be limited to only services that are absolutely essential for them to provide. *Opinion. State it as such*
> 
> *It's hard to argue against, the constitution largely prohibits government more than it allows them and sets in place very few and limited things it can do...speaking of the federal government only. And in recent times, Obama has recognized this, called the constitution a document of negative liberties and one that should be corrected with affirmative rights. But that would do away with what we have and create something new...which in many ways has already been done as the constitution is not often followed anymore. But the basis of the constitution is of the basis of nature's God. It doesn't not matter if you believe in God or not, that is the basis...even Thomas Paine, an ardent atheist understood this and was one of the very reasons he wrote common sense. And yes, many things in the constitution, following it to the letter, we can argue that if that's the right path it is a matter of opinion, but those that believe so simply believe it is common sense. 
> *
> ...


*
*
In Red

----------


## Beethoven

> I have yet to hear of anyone call the V.A. a quality place. Not anyone I know anyway.


That's because it is not largely reported in the media. There was a massive case of vets and other VA members contaminated with Heatitus b from a colonoscopy where the instruments were not properly sterilized. 
VA Contaminated Colonoscopies: 'Completely Inexcusable'

In regard to Danny Williams, the article can say what they want but, when the chips are down and it was HIS heart, we saw where his money went. All the rest is buffalo chips. Everyone can talk a big game but none where in HIS predicament. "Edited not really pertinent to the discussion"

----------


## Beethoven

And btw, what that article blames Williams for kind of sounds like our government officials exempting themselves from their very own law. You think they know something we don't? If they have to live by the same laws they pass, many of those wouldn't pass.

----------


## Beethoven

Williams's heart surgery choice was based on ignorance - The Globe and Mail

This article has some very interesting points. The writer admits in one paragraph the system has problems, then later says it's on par with the U.S. He further speculates the better procedure might have been then more invasive procedure. But I think the loudest point from this article is what they didn't get. Canada's system for healthcare is NOT on par with the U.S. They are quite upset with that fact. It's always strange how those types of people want to make decisions on YOUR healthcare and your money. You and I would not have had that choice.

----------


## 2Sox

> ^^^^^another great post! The government should with out a doubt be in charge of defense and monetary policy/currency. Other than that, most every other service should be farmed out to the private sector. Oh how interesting it would be if the private sector and free enterprise were able to compete for the rest of the services???


Hmmm. Interesting idea. Let's privatize the Police and Fire Departments and see how that works out. How about putting the National Highway System up for grabs too? No more State Troopers. Make it all private. Let's sell 911 to the highest bidders in each town. Which private ambulance unit will get the calls? Sell all the school systems too, while we're at it. Might want to re-think this one.

----------


## 2Sox

> [/B]
> In Red





> [/B]
> In Red


First: Please, enough with the red bold print. How about blue? It's a nice, relaxing color. (My favorite, actually)

Second, I'm going to agree with your statement about the FDA. The revolving door policy has been documented, is common knowledge and has to stop. There is no doubt about this. 

Now about your remark citing Obama as stating that "the constitution is a document of negative liberties." I don't want to think that you were being intentionally disingenuous - because if you research this statement, it's easy to find what the President did say and the context in which he said it. He was in an interview in 2001, while he was a senator, talking about the Warren court - not his views. I would suggest you stop believing everything you hear or read on the right wing blogs and do your homework. The facts are out there. I would be happy to provide you with this one link:

Obamaâ€™s â€œRedistribution of Wealthâ€ Quote In Context | The Moderate Voice

I'm tired so you find some others yourself.

Now about Thomas Paine and his important "Common Sense". I'm in the process of reading it now and I'll get back to you on it, but before I do, is there anything you like to change about what you wrote concerning this work? 

Oh, one more thing. As someone who studied law and the Constitution you ought to know - as every kid in grade school learns very early - there is absolutely no mention of God in the constitution and one of the basic tenets on which this county was founded has been the separation of church and state.

----------


## lovbyts

> Well thats refreashing!! I see some members get it... A single payer system LOL, just what this nation needs, bigger government and more interference! Wouldnt the joke or irony be on everyone who wants this when the day comes and the government chooses who receives treatment based on there silly little tables. Oh, sorry your 52, thats too old to receive a kidney transplant, needs to go to the 25yr old. Doesnt matter that you were a well respected person in the community who paid there taxes for decades, kidney is going to the unemployed drug user with 2 felonies because he's younger.
> A bit of an exggeration, but might not be so far fetched when you take a good look at some of the existing government run programs. Alot of talk above on how corporate profits are so "evil" the root of all the countries problems. Last i looked our Jails are full of politicians, I reside in the great state of illinois, cant remember the last time we had a governor that didnt end up in jail. Politicians clearly have their own agenda's in many cases, cant imagine putting our healthcare in their hands?


What exaggeration? They have already said exactly that. Emergency medical care will be given to who needs it most due to who will be more productive in the future. If you are near end of your days then it's best to just give you pain meds and let you fade away even if you can be saved/cured.

----------


## Metalject

> First: Please, enough with the red bold print. How about blue? It's a nice, relaxing color. (My favorite, actually)


The Red bold print, I don't know why I always pick red...subconscious favorite color maybe? I don't know. Nothing more than that to add there. 




> Second, I'm going to agree with your statement about the FDA. The revolving door policy has been documented, is common knowledge and has to stop. There is no doubt about this.


Glad we could agree. Most of the time when I've brought this up people just sort of stare blankly. 




> Now about your remark citing Obama as stating that "the constitution is a document of negative liberties." I don't want to think that you were being intentionally disingenuous - because if you research this statement, it's easy to find what the President did say and the context in which he said it. He was in an interview in 2001, while he was a senator, talking about the Warren court. I would suggest you stop believing everything you hear or read on the right wing blogs and do your homework. The facts are out there. I would be happy to provide you with this one link:
> 
> Obamaâ€™s â€œRedistribution of Wealthâ€ Quote In Context | The Moderate Voice
> 
> 
> I'm tired so you find some others yourself.


The comment on negative liberties and the Obama interview that came from, the comment about his belief in affirmative rights was the main point, in that government has the responsibility to right the wrongs of society rather than society righting the wrongs and government protecting the ability for it to do so. Yes, we can argue that if left to its own that society would trample this...the strong would destroy the weak. I recognize that, but that cannot happen if we remember what we talked about before...those in society (individuals) cannot do anything that tramples the life and liberty of another. That's governments role, but I believe president Obama sees it as more than that. Can I prove that as absolute fact? No, no one can either way; you would have to unequivocally know his heart and mind. I can only base my opinion on how I perceive what's in front of me. 




> Now about Thomas Paine and his important "Common Sense". I'm in the process of reading it now and I'll get back to you on it, but before I do, is there anything you like to change about what you wrote concerning this work?


I'm not sure what you're after here. Are you asking if I feel I may have misspoke or if I'd like to add more?




> Oh, one more thing. As someone who studied law and the Constitution you ought to know - as every kid in grade school learns very early - there is absolutely no mention of God in the constitution and one of the basic tenets on which this county was founded has been the separation of church and state.


The separation of church and state, you are correct, that is a basic tenet. Which I believe was put in place so that there would be no state religion nor prohibition of one in private. But the idea of separating it completely is an impossible idea. I've said this before in another thread...a man's religious beliefs or lack thereof define how he sees the world, they make up a large part of who he is and his decisions will largely be influenced by that. It is impossible to separate that part of a man from himself, religious or not. 

In any case, if we read the letters, diaries and countless books written by those who wrote the constitution, this topic is discussed at great length. The constitution itself is more or less a bullet point instruction of the role of government free from any emotional basis, while the declaration of independence is the opposite. Further, the founders believed it was for each man to determine his faith, that does not require constitutional persuasion nor should it prohibit it in any way. 

Lastly, I have always found it confusing that so many in education have tried to paint the founders as atheist or deist at best. The idea that they were anything else seems to bother a lot of people and I don't understand why. Read Washington's diary sometime or if you're really feeling fancy, read Jefferson's. I think you'll find that the educators in America are either idiots or sheep. I'm not saying that radical fire and brimstone preachers are right but the opposite most certainly is dead wrong.

----------


## Metalject

> Hmmm. Interesting idea. Let's privatize the Police and Fire Departments and see how that works out. How about putting the National Highway System up for grabs too? No more State Troopers. Make it all private. Let's sell 911 to the highest bidders in each town. Which private ambulance unit will get the calls? Sell all the school systems too, while we're at it. Might want to re-think this one.


If the private sector had control of these areas, the companies that did the best job would get the job. That's how it's always worked...business that do poorly and provide poor service go out of business. But when there's no competition, you're stuck with what you got. And in my opinion, the examples you used, they're not doing a stellar job to begin with.

----------


## Beethoven

> If the private sector had control of these areas, the companies that did the best job would get the job. That's how it's always worked...business that do poorly and provide poor service go out of business. But when there's no competition, you're stuck with what you got. And in my opinion, the examples you used, they're not doing a stellar job to begin with.


Metalject funny you should say that but that is exactly the problem with government, no competition. This administration spent what about 900 mil on this Obamacare and website? They had about four years to implement and it is still a fiasco? What private sector business would survive that way? Government is always preaching that we should live within our means. The government never lives within its means.

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## lovbyts

> If the private sector had control of these areas, the companies that did the best job would get the job. That's how it's always worked...business that do poorly and provide poor service go out of business. But when there's no competition, you're stuck with what you got. And in my opinion, the examples you used, they're not doing a stellar job to begin with.


Yeah maybe we could get back to when cops served the public instead of being debt collectors and strong arm militia. At one time when the work police was mentioned there was a sense of pride. Now when police is mentioned there is fear and un-trust felt.

Most of the fire department us to be voluntary but they have lost near 1/2 of their man power due to regulation and cutting out anyone wanting to volunteer.

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## Metalject

> Yeah maybe we could get back to when cops served the public instead of being debt collectors and strong arm militia. At one time when the work police was mentioned there was a sense of pride. Now when police is mentioned there is fear and un-trust felt.
> 
> Most of the fire department us to be voluntary but they have lost near 1/2 of their man power due to regulation and cutting out anyone wanting to volunteer.


I've often been amazed at how the idea of police officers has morphed into what it is. It is the standing army the founders vehemently opposed. There was warning after warning against giving up your freedom to protect and defend yourself as well as your right to liberty and entrusting it to the government, but that's exactly what we've done. But it's not the police themselves that's to blame, we've allowed it, we've welcomed it. We still call police public servants but by what definition is a servant above the people they serve? And that applies to all forms of so-called public service, not just the police. The police has grown beyond the individual, the individual is now the servant but the police is merely an arm of the larger ruler, the government, which should always be a rung below the people. We have flipped it around and destroyed the idea that was intended.

----------


## lovbyts

> I've often been amazed at how the idea of police officers has morphed into what it is. It is the standing army the founders vehemently opposed. There was warning after warning against giving up your freedom to protect and defend yourself as well as your right to liberty and entrusting it to the government, but that's exactly what we've done. But it's not the police themselves that's to blame, we've allowed it, we've welcomed it. We still call police public servants but by what definition is a servant above the people they serve? And that applies to all forms of so-called public service, not just the police. The police has grown beyond the individual, the individual is now the servant but the police is merely an arm of the larger ruler, the government, which should always be a rung below the people. We have flipped it around and destroyed the idea that was intended.


And we will probably follow the same track ever nation and empire in history who has done this because we seem incapable of learning from our or others past. We will fall if we dont change things around. Only problem is I fear we have gone past the point of turning it around without the intevention of a natural global disaster. I say natural because I dont think the public is strong enough to stand up for what is right and wrong anymore. They have been manipulated and softened over time to where we to comfortable to make a stand afraid of loosing what they have and will just continue to loose it little by little.

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## Score

> Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.


Yesterday my doc mailed in my completed appeals form, was length and likely designed as a deterrent. I will let you know how that goes.

The scary part is that my doctor didn't want to write me the script as he knew insurance wouldn't likely cover it, to which I convinced him I didn't care I would pay out of pocket. 

The positive of that to me was it lead him to injections versus gel since it was cheaper. Seems a lot of docs prefer gel cause it's less invasive .

----------


## 2Sox

> The Red bold print, I don't know why I always pick red...subconscious favorite color maybe? I don't know. Nothing more than that to add there. 
> 
> 
> Glad we could agree. Most of the time when I've brought this up people just sort of stare blankly. 
> 
> 
> 
> The comment on negative liberties and the Obama interview that came from, the comment about his belief in affirmative rights was the main point, in that government has the responsibility to right the wrongs of society rather than society righting the wrongs and government protecting the ability for it to do so. Yes, we can argue that if left to its own that society would trample this...the strong would destroy the weak. I recognize that, but that cannot happen if we remember what we talked about before...those in society (individuals) cannot do anything that tramples the life and liberty of another. That's governments role, but I believe president Obama sees it as more than that. Can I prove that as absolute fact? No, no one can either way; you would have to unequivocally know his heart and mind. I can only base my opinion on how I perceive what's in front of me. 
> 
> ...


I respect how you write here. I believe you've made some very good points. There are some points that I take exception to but these are fine details, and rather than commenting, I'll just leave it at that.

One small point I'll disagree with. I'm a retired educator - spent 30 years in the classroom - and I was privileged to meet some of the finest, most brilliant people I have ever known. The few bad ones I've met along the way didn't last long.

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## 2Sox

Posted by Metalject: _I'm not sure what you're after here. Are you asking if I feel I may have misspoke or if I'd like to add more?_

You might have misspoken but I think that it was more that I was unclear on exactly what you were saying about Thomas Paine and God in referencing "Common Sense". I believe you may have confused "Common Sense" with his "Age of Reason" - in which he essentially expresses that organized religion is an abomination - even while being a Deist himself - and says it has absolutely not place in government. Of course, this is how I understand it from what I have read - but it seems pretty clear to me.

I'm very grateful for this discussion because it has given me the opportunity to research and learn new things. Gets the blood moving.

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## bullshark99

2sox, 30 years or 30 days???? LOL, sorry you had that one coming to you. Even though we may disagree significantly on philosophy, I must admit if a person takes the blinders off and with an open mind tries to see another's point of view without existing biases, only good can come out of it. This thread obviously evolved, took a life of its own, will be interesting what the future holds regarding TRT coverage. Think it is pretty clear I am not a fan of the new ACA, would be very nice if I were wrong, time will tell.

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## 2Sox

> 2sox, 30 years or 30 days???? LOL, sorry you had that one coming to you. Even though we may disagree significantly on philosophy, I must admit if a person takes the blinders off and with an open mind tries to see another's point of view without existing biases, only good can come out of it. This thread obviously evolved, took a life of its own, will be interesting what the future holds regarding TRT coverage. Think it is pretty clear I am not a fan of the new ACA, would be very nice if I were wrong, time will tell.


LOL. Yep, I guess I did. It's funny. While I was writing that "30" I thought to myself that I was leaving myself wide open to someone's comeback.

I respect what you said above. This is not to flatter at all, but IMO it takes a real man to say that he's willing to listen to other viewpoints and possibly change his mind if he sees he's wrong. It's funny. I just got an email from Whitehouse.gov that contained a letter from a staunch Republican who completely changed his mind about the ACA. I think it might be useful to copy and paste it here. Some may see it as White House propaganda - and it's good to have a healthy skepticism - but I'd imagine it can be corroborated if someone took the effort to do so. Here it is:

_Good afternoon,

I am a staunch Republican, a self-proclaimed Fox News addict, and I didn't vote for the President. And I'm here to tell you that Obamacare works. I'm living proof.

I'm a chemotherapy patient, and was previously paying $428 a month for my health coverage. I was not thrilled when it was cancelled.

Then I submitted an application at HealthCare.gov. I looked at my options. And I signed up for a plan for $62 a month.

It's the best health care I have ever had.

So right now, here's what I want to tell anyone who still needs health insurance, or knows someone who does:

Sign up. Follow the instructions on the website. Apply, and look at your options. You still have time, and take it from me: This is something you want to do.

I wrote a letter to President Obama this past February to tell him about my experience with the Health Insurance Marketplace. I hoped he'd read it, and he did.

I may not be a supporter of the President. But now, I get mad when I see Obamacare dragged through the mud on television.

And even though I regularly tune in to conservative pundits, I'd like to tell them they're getting it wrong. Obamacare works.

So one more time: If you still need health insurance, you have just three days to get it. Do what I did. Go to HealthCare.gov, submit an application, and pick a plan that works for you.

It just might change your life.

Mark D. Bearden, Ph.D.
Monroe, North Carolina
_

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## GFA

Never thought I would see a healthy debate on steroid .com related to political issues  :Smilie:  

I can't even read the comments on CNN or Fox. 

Carry on.

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## bullshark99

While I'm certainly not suggesting "someone" made that letter up I would challenge anyone here to show me a bonifide health insurance plan that cost just 62 bucks a month??? Frankly, in my opinion, ( as you like to see) 2sox, health insurance for a young single male (non smoker) hasn't cost 62 dollars in more than 20 years.
Medicare supp policies are more than double that, my family dental is close to double. I find this very unlikely, I think people would be doing cartwheels if that was accurate. My family coverage is about 1800 per month, please do not suggest 90 % of that is "corporate profit".

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## Beethoven

Yes this has been a healthy and sometimes even stimulating debate. 
2Sox, that is a very touching letter and possibly even true. But look at it for what it is. He is getting a premium with chemo already for $62 a month. Haleiluya. However those of that still work and pay are paying a heck of a lot more than that. What do you suppose would happen if we could all go into Obamacare and pay $62 a month? What do you think would happen to "insurance" and or healthcare. The bottom would drop out. Even at single payer there is no way the healthcare industry could support it at $62 a month. It is plain economics. You are an educated man think about it. More money would have to come via taxes or rate increases. If the profit is removed from the equation will the pharmaceuticals keep manufacturing expensive medicines? Would Doctors who spend effectively half their lives in school and rack up hundreds and thousands of dollars in student loans keep that up? Will the cutting edge research that produce the medications and cutting edge surgical techniques keep going, for free? You didn't work for free (although I readily believe good teachers are grossly underpaid) and did get a nice retirement. Yet we expect everything to keep functioning at this level for effectively free. When the incentive for profit is removed where will the motivation for work come from? The goodness of our hearts? This simply is not so. And even in the countries where the Drs are taught on the govt dime, how many then leave and come to the U.S. Or elsewhere to make more money? The strive to live better and higher is a natural human condition. This socialized system is a panacea that doesn't exist. That is why a high level Canadian Official elected to have the procedure done in this country other than his. It costed him about $20000 to have it here vs his homeland. I assure you he wasn't ignorant or mis informed as that article tried to make him out. We spoke on another thread about choices, and if I'm not mistaken you are a believer that depression is basically the sum of many bad choices in ones life as opposed to chemical imbalances. Maybe so but not every choice in ones life is his or hers. In this case, the ACA was made for us without or consent. It was forced upon us. As I pointed out in the other thread many choices in our lives are not necessarily ones we've made. Now as it pertains to trt, most of the meds for all of us aren't covered anyway, so what happens when you have to start rationing or it becomes single payer to those of us on trt? We're screwed and will have to resort to the black market. Why, WE are made up of all kinds of politically sided individuals who can't get past the "our team" mentality when it comes to politics, as if this were a football game or soccer match. Not until our individual toes are stepped on do we open our eyes. I don't want ANY government wether right, left or independent involved in my healthcare decisions. It's going to be ok for us to go in the dark alleys for our black market test but the politicians want to keep women from that same alley for their abortion. We have no lobby or voting block so if we're going to cover chemo for $62 a month SOMETHING has to get cut. The healthcare market cannot absorb everything and everyone for $62 a month.

----------


## bullshark99

Before someone beats me to it, I'm not looking for a plan with a 50,000 deduct able either.

----------


## Metalject

> And we will probably follow the same track ever nation and empire in history who has done this because we seem incapable of learning from our or others past. We will fall if we dont change things around. Only problem is I fear we have gone past the point of turning it around without the intevention of a natural global disaster. I say natural because I dont think the public is strong enough to stand up for what is right and wrong anymore. They have been manipulated and softened over time to where we to comfortable to make a stand afraid of loosing what they have and will just continue to loose it little by little.


We are without a doubt at the point of no return, at least as it stands. You're right, it would take a disaster for things to change, and that's unfortunate. A natural disaster or man made, I don't think it makes a difference. Actually, a man made one might be better if we consider our history. Think about it....after 9/11 most Americans felt united and the mindset begin to gradually change. But it wasn't enough, the disaster and threat wasn't enough to make it last. If we look back at our history, it has always been in instances of our safety and liberty at stake in a blatant way. For whatever reason, as a whole, we seem to be blinded when liberty is slowly and methodically taken away. 

But it is always in disaster that we seem to turn things around unlike other places around the world. I do not know why that is, I honestly don't have a good answer for it. But I've been fortunate to have many friends from all over the world, and the mindset we have here is very unique. 

I do believe there is still hope and I do believe there are still good people, but the point of no return without disaster may already very well be here.

----------


## Metalject

> Posted by Metalject: _I'm not sure what you're after here. Are you asking if I feel I may have misspoke or if I'd like to add more?_
> 
> You might have misspoken but I think that it was more that I was unclear on exactly what you were saying about Thomas Paine and God in referencing "Common Sense". I believe you may have confused "Common Sense" with his "Age of Reason" - in which he essentially expresses that organized religion is an abomination - even while being a Deist himself - and says it has absolutely not place in government. Of course, this is how I understand it from what I have read - but it seems pretty clear to me.
> 
> I'm very grateful for this discussion because it has given me the opportunity to research and learn new things. Gets the blood moving.


I may have gotten confused...you may be right. It's been years since I've ready anything by Paine, so you could be correct. I do recall, however, reading where Paine discussed Hamilton and Washington's basis of the separation of powers on the book of Jeremiah, the branches of government on the book of Isaiah. Even article 4 comes straight from the book of Exodus. And Paine discusses these matters, how he came to terms with it despite his overall lack of faith. The basis of his acceptance was simple, faith or not these principles are basic common sense any man should be able to hold to. 

Regardless of our personal beliefs, the idea that much of the constitution directly reflects biblical text, in my opinion this isn't something anyone should be threatened by. Religious or not, the bible says murder is bad; would any of us argue otherwise just because we do not share christian faith? I would hope not; I would hope we could all agree that such things are common sense despite where they come from.

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## 2Sox

The answers to your questions are beyond my knowledge. (To say any more at this point would be to basically repeat myself, and to be honest, I'm running out of steam.) I guess we'll all have to wait and see. But it's nice to know that the CBO has found that the ACA will save the country over 190 billion dollars over ten years.

Nevertheless, here's a site I found that I think will help answer some of your questions:

ObamaCare News: Daily Obamacare Updates

And another brief story:

: Affordable Care Act : The Shriver Brief

I predict that in due time all this hysteria will become a thing of the past as more and more people come to realize the benefits of this plan.

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## 2Sox

By the way, I Googled "Obamacare for dummies" and LOTS of very useful links came up - that would probably answer most of your questions. If you have time, take a look. I'm doing that now.

Here is a clever presentation:

http://www.upworthy.com/the-simplest...obamacare-ever

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## lovbyts

> By the way, I Googled "Obamacare for dummies" and LOTS of very useful links came up - that would probably answer most of your questions. If you have time, take a look. I'm doing that now.
> 
> Here is a clever presentation:
> 
> The Simplest Explanation Of Obamacare. Ever.


Hmmm should I believe the propaganda online that I can read or what my real life experience, eyes and ears show me? I guess some people still like to drink the koolaid.

Wow! I made it through about 50% of the video and had to stop before I puked. What a bunch of BS. I know no one whos insurance has gotten better but I know plenty of who have much more limitations while paying a lot more, myself included.

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## Metalject

The truth of the matter, regardless of which side of the fence you fall on, it is easy to find "sources" that support your side of the fence. And it's extremely easy to call them credible. A massive problem - there are few, so few credible sources anymore. Media, online blogs and articles, most are persuaded by their own personal desires. Journalism itself is beyond a lost cause - how anyone can take any media seriously anymore is beyond rational comprehension. In watching the last president and the current, and this comment isn't in support of either one - the media's lack of professionalism and dignity is appalling. 

The second truth of the matter - no one knows how Obama Care will play out. Everything anyone says is nothing more than a guess and a feeble attempt at predicting the future. We can only state what is in front of us. Will be it the country's saving grace? Based on what's happened so far that is a very hard argument to make. Is it possible? Sure, it could happen. However, let's also keep in mind, if we're going to make predictions, the senate will probably go to the GOP next time, they will also maintain the House as it stands today. If they gain both houses, Obama Care will lose all funding and that is legal - Congress has the right to decide what it funds and what it doesn't - laws can be laws, legal laws, but congress is not required to fund them. Laws go unfunded all the time. That happens and the entire conversation about the future of this law becomes mute.

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## optionsdude

Wow! Been busy with work for a while and haven't been able to read many posts,but this one caught my eye. I finally approach my dr and it sounds like my TRT won't be covered for long. Waiting on results from second set of BW so dr can prescribe. He was very understanding and listened to what I had to say and even agreed to keep my protocol the same. I am not bragging here but I have what some would call a Cadillac plan with a one time yearly deductible of $200 for me and the family. So if I eventually have to pay for my test c. I'm ok with it. I've been brewing and self administering my trt for years now,still have plenty,but wanted to eventually get legit because of life insurance and travelling with vials and pins. The older I get the more the "What if's" bother me. Damn I hate being responsible sometimes. As for the political arguments,it's all a bunch of psychological BS to keep out a third party,each side is scared to vote for another party in fear of the other side winning.

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## 61er

So far I've seen no evidence of Humana canceling -- or proposing to cancel --insurance for TRT. Absolutely nothing.

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## dreadnok89

They're both trash. Private and government. Why even argue. Scumbags raise your premiums left and right yet dole out millions to put their names on stadiums and jerk off college football games. Stop the insanity.

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## Beethoven

> Wow! Been busy with work for a while and haven't been able to read many posts,but this one caught my eye. I finally approach my dr and it sounds like my TRT won't be covered for long. Waiting on results from second set of BW so dr can prescribe. He was very understanding and listened to what I had to say and even agreed to keep my protocol the same. I am not bragging here but I have what some would call a Cadillac plan with a one time yearly deductible of $200 for me and the family. So if I eventually have to pay for my test c. I'm ok with it. I've been brewing and self administering my trt for years now,still have plenty,but wanted to eventually get legit because of life insurance and travelling with vials and pins. The older I get the more the "What if's" bother me. Damn I hate being responsible sometimes. As for the political arguments,it's all a bunch of psychological BS to keep out a third party,each side is scared to vote for another party in fear of the other side winning.


The problem with third parties is that they are a death Nell for either of the other two. We can thank The Clinton Presidency on Ross Perot. I would like a third party but it doesn't look like it will happen. The Tea Party is almost what you would call a third party, which is what the Republican Party once was, and not only do they have to deal with the Liberal attack machine but also from within their own party. The media as a whole is a joke. The minute you say this one leans left or right means that they are not properly doing their jobs. They are far from objective and are nothing but propaganda arms for the government. This is not what the founders intended. This media spent the whole Bush term telling us we were in a recession when it was quite the opposite. Meanwhile the same media has been telling us we have "recovered" yet unemployment benefits have to keep on extending. If you have to keep extending unemployment benefits we are not in the recovery they would have you believe. This has become a football game with the media rooting for their own side regardless of the facts, with we the public footing the bill for all this. Then Senator Obama called Pres Bush's debt unamerican. He has far surpassed that number and hasn't even finished yet.

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## MRNJ1992

Really depends on your insurance. Im in the teamsters. My last insurance was Magnacare and script coverage was medco. My HCG was 30$ for 3 bottles per delivery and my T was 3 5cc bottles for free. I switched companies and now pay 40$ per bottle on HCG and waiting for an approval for T. So its all about the insurance company. My recent insurance has a bunch of exceptions. Had to fight for the HCG-they want to give it only if your between the age of 18-44. Its all a bunch of crap. Im sure if my wife needs meds for menopause they'll give em to her.

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## booku

Im done with trying to get insurance to cover it, now I just get a discount from the pharmacy but its still 75 a month for a 5ml vial

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## Beethoven

> Im done with trying to get insurance to cover it, now I just get a discount from the pharmacy but its still 75 a month for a 5ml vial


Go to goodrx.com and print out the coupon. Take it cvs or walgreens and get it for about $40.

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## optionsdude

> The problem with third parties is that they are a death Nell for either of the other two. We can thank The Clinton Presidency on Ross Perot. I would like a third party but it doesn't look like it will happen. The Tea Party is almost what you would call a third party, which is what the Republican Party once was, and not only do they have to deal with the Liberal attack machine but also from within their own party. The media as a whole is a joke. The minute you say this one leans left or right means that they are not properly doing their jobs. They are far from objective and are nothing but propaganda arms for the government. This is not what the founders intended. This media spent the whole Bush term telling us we were in a recession when it was quite the opposite. Meanwhile the same media has been telling us we have "recovered" yet unemployment benefits have to keep on extending. If you have to keep extending unemployment benefits we are not in the recovery they would have you believe. This has become a football game with the media rooting for their own side regardless of the facts, with we the public footing the bill for all this. Then Senator Obama called Pres Bush's debt unamerican. He has far surpassed that number and hasn't 
> even finished yet.


The media is the one implementing the psychological BS and doing a good job at controlling the herd. Think about it for a while it was "Getting older, feeling sluggish, you've got low T." Now it's "Have you taken any of these products and have heart problems or died,call my law firm."

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## The Deadlifting Dog

> "Have you taken any of these products and have heart problems or died,call my law firm."


How exactly do they expect you to call them if you are dead?

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## Beethoven

> How exactly do they expect you to call them if you are dead?


that would be a good trick. But hey, dead people vote in Illinois. Lol

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## lovbyts

> that would be a good trick. But hey, dead people vote in Illinois. Lol


Only the Democrat ones.  :Wink:

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## APIs

An insurance plan for $62.00/month? Last year our Mom was 88 and on Medicare. Her 'supplemental' insurance plan through Blue Cross alone was $220/month. Come on now...

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## lovbyts

> An insurance plan for $62.00/month? Last year our Mom was 88 and on Medicare. Her 'supplemental' insurance plan through Blue Cross alone was $220/month. Come on now...


The qualifications for the $66 a month plan are you have to be deceased for over 6 months and provide proof.

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## Beethoven

> The qualifications for the $66 a month plan are you have to be deceased for over 6 months and provide proof.


Illinoisan voter ID required.  :Big Grin:

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## bullshark99

That letter loses all credibility, whoever forged it should of been at least "semi-realistic" about it. For someone to think that legitamate health insurance cost 62 dollars a month is absurd. Even being deceased with a 6 month waiting period is pushing it LOL. Even us crooked Illinoisan's with fake voter reg cards no better!!

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## Low Testosterone

$62 per month plans are possible, it depends on your income and qualifications. In some ways, qualifying for subsides is like qualifying for various tax write offs. However, at the same time there is no such thing as a $62 plan, that plan cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars per month. The catch is that particular individual simply isn't paying for it but someone is. There is always someone paying for it. I'm not sure why some people can't see that.

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## Beethoven

> $62 per month plans are possible, it depends on your income and qualifications. In some ways, qualifying for subsides is like qualifying for various tax write offs. However, at the same time there is no such thing as a $62 plan, that plan cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars per month. The catch is that particular individual simply isn't paying for it but someone is. There is always someone paying for it. I'm not sure why some people can't see that.


You would think so but people are so blinded by their partisanship, it won't allow some common sense. Someone once told me that politics is like a religion. People will follow it blindly no matter what they see or hear.

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## Metalject

Obama Care will cost me almost $800 per month. That's not counting deductible and copays. That's one policy for a single 35yr old man. That is insane!!!

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## Beethoven

> Obama Care will cost me almost $800 per month. That's not counting deductible and copays. That's one policy for a single 35yr old man. That is insane!!!


It's really not insane, it's redistribution at its finest. It's not enough you have to carry your load but someone else's, too. It's all part of the design.

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## APIs

> Obama Care will cost me almost $800 per month. That's not counting deductible and copays. That's one policy for a single 35yr old man. That is insane!!!


Yes, but like myself you can now feel good in the fact that your contribution here is helping a fellow American. 

Can't you feel it?  :Aajack:

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## Beethoven

> Yes, but like myself you can now feel good in the fact that your contribution here is helping a fellow American. 
> 
> Can't you feel it?


Funny you should say that. Every left leaning person I've spoken to about this subject always wants feel good about helping someone else. Where I always draw a blank is when I ask How much. How much what they ask. How much does it take? At what point do both sides finally agree is enough? 50% tax? 60 or maybe 70? The war on poverty has been going on for over fifty years and every election cycle it's the same thing. More help for the needy, more education. We spend more on education than probably any other country per student and it's NEVER enough. At what point can we say that what we've been doing doesn't work? The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Every year we give more and more to the welfare and social programs and instead of shrinking, they are expanding. I also pay close to $1000 a month for my insurance. If we would all stop working and go on the dime, how long do you think that would last? Everyone wants Wal Mart employees to make a lot of money yet expect to shop there and keep the low low prices. That's insane.

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## Metalject

> Yes, but like myself you can now feel good in the fact that your contribution here is helping a fellow American. 
> 
> Can't you feel it?


I've yet to feel good. I must be doing it wrong.

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## Metalject

> Funny you should say that. Every left leaning person I've spoken to about this subject always wants feel good about helping someone else. Where I always draw a blank is when I ask How much. How much what they ask. How much does it take? At what point do both sides finally agree is enough? 50% tax? 60 or maybe 70? The war on poverty has been going on for over fifty years and every election cycle it's the same thing. More help for the needy, more education. We spend more on education than probably any other country per student and it's NEVER enough. At what point can we say that what we've been doing doesn't work? The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Every year we give more and more to the welfare and social programs and instead of shrinking, they are expanding. I also pay close to $1000 a month for my insurance. If we would all stop working and go on the dime, how long do you think that would last? Everyone wants Wal Mart employees to make a lot of money yet expect to shop there and keep the low low prices. That's insane.


People that say what you're talking about, feels good to help and that's why they want higher taxes or don't mind it - they say that because they have a societal mindset rather than one of individualism. The latter sounds selfish on its surface but it's anything but - it means it's up to individuals to live and help other individuals. Plus, bleeding hearts you're referring to, if they have money they do all they can to avoid giving it away through taxes like anyone else or they're living on the rest of us. Rarely do you see people who support this type of thing who are regular middle class Joe's, they exist but they are very rare.

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## Beethoven

> People that say what you're talking about, feels good to help and that's why they want higher taxes or don't mind it - they say that because they have a societal mindset rather than one of individualism. The latter sounds selfish on its surface but it's anything but - it means it's up to individuals to live and help other individuals. Plus, bleeding hearts you're referring to, if they have money they do all they can to avoid giving it away through taxes like anyone else or they're living on the rest of us. Rarely do you see people who support this type of thing who are regular middle class Joe's, they exist but they are very rare.


Agreed. I'm not rich by ANY stretch but I can say that I have NEVER taken a penny from the govt. I depend on myself to provide.

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## Beethoven

One of my attractions to BB and weight training is that you have to train for what you want. You may not always get what you want as not everyone is genetically gifted for that success. You aren't entitled do a damn thing if you don't work for it. And no one else can give it to you, nor can you take from someone else. However, you can always be better than what you have been but only if YOU work for it. These politicians should train a little bit.

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## Score

> One of my attractions to BB and weight training is that you have to train for what you want. You may not always get what you want as not everyone is genetically gifted for that success. You aren't entitled do a damn thing if you don't work for it. And no one else can give it to you, nor can you take from someone else. However, you can always be better than what you have been but only if YOU work for it. These politicians should train a little bit.


Couldn't agree more B! 

It's also the only place we're allowed to be 100% or more. Employees screw up, can't freak out. Kids screw up, gotta stay calm. Wife becomes irrational, gotta calm her down. List goes on and on. In the weight room however, no holding back. AMEN 

In regards to insurance, I must chime in with a lot less researched and educated views, Everyone feel free to pounce : )..

I get that trt is sometimes not covered. My insurance won't help because my numbers were above 300 so therefore they must see it as a quality of life issue, this is true.

I could survive without it, I choose not too. They cover pain pills for me, odd because that's also a quality of life issue. I take vitamins, those aren't covered. My protein isn't covered nor is my gym membership. 

Those statements are a stretch but I get the dilemma for both sides, it's not black and white like some are making it out to be. 

I'll pay the 40 a month for T and pray they will pay the 40k for a bypass surgery if that need should ever arise

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## system admin

Pretty good stuff from a lot of you. Our current administration has done nothing but lie, hide, fudge, misrepresent, etc... 

Time will tell and none of us will have to debate soon enough.


Here is something on Humana website that shows that testosterone is not covered:

https://www.humana.com/insurance-thr...ols/drug-list/

Click Drug List Search

Type in "Testosterone" and search.

Choose "Rx4" or "Rx3" and search.

I dont have much more than this at the moment, but its a start to get to the bottom of it.

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## system admin

Notices just now went out so website may not be fully updated on what is or is not covered. I have a call into my cousin who owns an insurance company and they are researching further.

Bc

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## Beethoven

> Couldn't agree more B! 
> 
> It's also the only place we're allowed to be 100% or more. Employees screw up, can't freak out. Kids screw up, gotta stay calm. Wife becomes irrational, gotta calm her down. List goes on and on. In the weight room however, no holding back. AMEN 
> 
> In regards to insurance, I must chime in with a lot less researched and educated views, Everyone feel free to pounce : )..
> 
> I get that trt is sometimes not covered. My insurance won't help because my numbers were above 300 so therefore they must see it as a quality of life issue, this is true.Y
> 
> I could survive without it, I choose not too. They cover pain pills for me, odd because that's also a quality of life issue. I take vitamins, those aren't covered. My protein isn't covered nor is my gym membership. 
> ...


You're right it is a quality of life issue, although there have been studies that show low t can have adverse effects on the body as well. These were originally told to me a Dr I had a long time ago way before I ever came across this site. There has been studies posted on this site that confirmed what he had said to me. Test is not covered and that's fine, but if you also take away the BW associated with getting dialed in because of new regulations or cut backs, THAT does present a problem. One could argue that BW while getting dialed in is the most costly part of it, and in my case a vital part. Once you're dialed in you don't need that much but every time you make a change in your protocol, BW is the best way to see what's going on, not to mention keeping on top of your hematocrit levels and such. Now that the ambulance chasers have targeted trt patients, not covering BW is an open door for complications to the trt patient, law suits galore for the lawyers, a black eye again for "steroids " which we will be lumped in with. In short a disaster for us.

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## system admin

I think steroids will be decriminalized in the next 10 years. We shall see.

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## Score

> You're right it is a quality of life issue, although there have been studies that show low t can have adverse effects on the body as well. These were originally told to me a Dr I had a long time ago way before I ever came across this site. There has been studies posted on this site that confirmed what he had said to me. Test is not covered and that's fine, but if you also take away the BW associated with getting dialed in because of new regulations or cut backs, THAT does present a problem. One could argue that BW while getting dialed in is the most costly part of it, and in my case a vital part. Once you're dialed in you don't need that much but every time you make a change in your protocol, BW is the best way to see what's going on, not to mention keeping on top of your hematocrit levels and such. Now that the ambulance chasers have targeted trt patients, not covering BW is an open door for complications to the trt patient, law suits galore for the lawyers, a black eye again for "steroids" which we will be lumped in with. In short a disaster for us.


I think I'm catching on to a problem...

My original BW was written as yearly physical. Have had any follow up yet, your saying that's where I'm going to get hit?

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## kelkel

> I think steroids will be decriminalized in the next 10 years. We shall see.


As they should be. But I think it's too much of a political football. Lyle Alzado ruined it for everyone.

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## Beethoven

> Notices just now went out so website may not be fully updated on what is or is not covered. I have a call into my cousin who owns an insurance company and they are researching further.
> 
> Bc


Thanks for the updates.

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## Beethoven

> As they should be. But I think it's too much of a political football. Lyle Alzado ruined it for everyone.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ on point

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## Metalject

> As they should be. But I think it's too much of a political football. Lyle Alzado ruined it for everyone.


Everyone from the Alzado era will soon be gone from politics. And people like Dr. Gary Wadler, the biggest pusher of steroid legislation in the world, the only credibility he holds anymore is with the same law makers who are at the end of their road. The point - things will certainly change and there will be opportunity for those changes. In the past no opportunity has existed. I'm not saying they'll ever be 100% OTC like Tylenol but there are good chances for good changes if they're taken advantage of. The biggest problem though is the steroid using community itself, they're scared.

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## kelkel

One can hope. But overturning an existing law is excruciatingly hard to accomplish. New members of congress or not, I still think it's the "political football" no one will want to touch. Seriously hope I'm wrong though. They either did not care or did not realize the overall impact criminalizing AAS would have on the black market, and the impact on the health and safety of AAS users nationwide.

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## Beethoven

> One can hope. But overturning an existing law is excruciatingly hard to accomplish. New members of congress or not, I still think it's the "political football" no one will want to touch. Seriously hope I'm wrong though. They either did not care or did not realize the overall impact criminalizing AAS would have on the black market, and the impact on the health and safety of AAS users nationwide.


I agree, without a lobby, and all the negative pub the athletes give AAS, I doubt it. One cane hope though.

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## system admin

My theory is that testosterone treatment will continue to prove itself as a life changing medicine that not only improves quality of life but more importantly prevents serious health issues. As the lawsuits continue, the research and facts about these drugs will be forced into the public eye and in my opinion, these lawsuits will be the start of educational process for our nation and our demonization of "steroids ." The same thing happened with certain birth controls and many other medicines. The drugs are introduced to the market, the skeptics shout on the side line and talk about how these drugs are killing and hurting people (please take killing the unborn out of this example) and most are shouting with ZERO knowledge or research on the subject. Once the lawsuits start coming, the courts and people get to hear and see the facts from both sides and that is the start of how the publics opinion will change.

Once the medical community and the drug companies see these lawsuits about death, stroke, and heart attack END with a losing decision (in favor of the manufacturers of testosterone)... We will start to see a windfall of acceptance and more educated people entering the discussion and testosterone will no longer be the devil.

After that happens, I believe that testosterone will grow to be a widely accepted medicine (much more so than it already is)

After that, men involved in all types of sports will argue their need for testosterone treatment for many of the reasons and benefits that have been proven and will continue to be proven.

After that, testosterone will start to become much more accepted for athletes as a way for these men to heal faster, prevent disease, and help to prevent injury... Not to mention help the older athletes achieve higher levels of testosterone due to deficiency. 

Once that happens, there will be enough time to have passed to where the older generation who grew hearing of the lies and horrors of testosterone and "steroids" will be moved on and the new generation will be running things with a different idea about these drugs. At that time, i think the discussion will be brought up to revisit the dangers of these drugs.

Lets face it.... many more people are talking about wanting steroids IN sports due to all of the things they help with. (Healing, prevention, recovery, strength, and lets not forget the improvement of athletic performance) How many people are going to be as excited about sports when 10 years go by and no one can best the records of the past? I will tell you one thing... Testing for these drugs and substances are going to improve to an unbeatable level and there will be no more excuses. Soon, there will be another huge steroid scandal and the "People" will call for tougher testing. Once that happens, the "people" are going to be losing a lot of talented athletes on the playing fields and those same "people" are going to be replaced by a younger generation who is tired of watching games where records are no longer broken (or hardly ever broken)

My point is, there is a progression of acceptance in this country and we as a nation want nothing more than to WANT MORE. We want better bats, balls, equipement, fields, training, supplements...... We want more hits, faster athletes, longer homeruns.... and most of us (especially our younger generations) DONT care about the "integrity of the game" when it comes to putting on a more exciting show for us.

Anyway, in my opinion there is a domino effect in play here and once the facts and proven research comes out about the benefits vs. risks come out with TESTOSTERONE, that may very well be the thing that changes our nations uneducated views on this subject and should heal the black eye that Lyle Alzato and others have given to these drugs.

One final point: Bodybuilding, like it or not is going down in popularity and the monsters of today are becoming freaks and funny looking to most. The massive amounts of drugs these guys use these days are becoming NOT COOL and "stupid". As the new generations continue to want to improve their bodies and look like elite levels athletes or models and NOT like monsters, a lot of the negative spotlight will be removed and there will be less and less people who are killing themselves with mass loads of gear and related drugs.

I think our culture will soon evolve to respect these drugs and not demonize them. Will all "steroids" be accepted, NO. I think it will start with drugs like "Testosterone," "Anavar ," and other more mild steroids.

Just my thought

Bc

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## kelkel

Well said BC. Good to see you around....

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## BuzzardMarinePumper

* Guys chill  There's no need to fear an election year is near ? Obama Care is not a law ? It was not passed by house or Senate ! It is a presidential Proclimation and will be repealed by the next man in office  There is hope for the real USA, not perverted by an non- citizen dick tater ! *

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## Beethoven

I surely hope so. I love the sport of bodybuilding and I too believe these athletes are too big. Impressive physiques as it may be but just too freakishly big. I like women's bodybuilding but back in the Rachel Mclish era. As the women got bigger and bigger I got less interested. Now for the law suits, I believe it will be proven that it's mostly un educated Drs and supervision that will bear the brunt of it and not testosterone . How many times have we seen that here? 
Buzzardmarinepumper, I hope so. The problem is that the other side has fallen in love with bigger government also, they just think they can do it better. Bottom line is they both want control of the money.

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## kelkel

> I like women's bodybuilding but back in the Rachel Mclish era.


Absolutely. Rachel, Cory Everson, Anja Langer, etc...

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## BuzzardMarinePumper

> And by the way, we have a very successful single payer system in the U.S., administered by the government and from my knowledge it works great. I have many friends who are Vets and doctors who I have known who worked there, and they all love it - the V.A.


*2sox* I respect you but you are way off track here ! You offer herasay from friends as a statement and I promise you it is not a fact ! The VA offers basic medical care fore basic 1st aid and anything that requires real specialist are the Dr. who can't get a real job in the real world . I know you are a liberal and drink the Obama Kol-Aid but for Christ sake ? What real qualified Dr would work for the VA . . . because he has a heart for vets . . . .I think not and even if that is the case !! I know from hands on treatment aything that requires real spelized medicine is out sourced and sent to a real hospital !

Oh and try to receive pain management from the VA ? *NOT !*
Try to get TRT from the VA ? *NOT !* 
Try to go to an appointment and get there on time and *spend less that 7 hours there* at the VA ? *NOT !*
As a vet you can live in the low rent district and be close to the VA or *drive 100 + miles round trip* for basic treatment ?
Is it really free when they put a banana on your ear and say you are well ?


 So on that statement I am qualified to call BULL $HIT !

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## BuzzardMarinePumper

Oh something I ran ino this year when all my meds trippled in price and some were not covered . Your Dr. can write a Formuliary request that your health requires the medication and my Insurance compqny covered it ( a pain med ) But I will hit my do nut hole about July or August and my meds will cost $500.00+ a month thanks to Obama - Care ! I fail to see the savings for the low income citizens since I am on fixed income and 100% disabled ? Just waiting on a new president that is a citizen to repeal all the DA presidential Proclimations !

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## Beethoven

Buzzardmarinepumper I know what you mean. I was in the service and you are 100% correct. Many of the physicians in charge were young officers and, even though some do it for the love of country and I very much respect them for it, the level of education is not the same as in private practice and very few "specialists". You would think with all the money the government has it might be different but it is not. The government can not run anything compared to the private sector. Why? Most of them are theorists who have never run a real business in the real world. Career academics or politicians with no hands on experience using one of the original sins, "envy" as their weapon. I can assure you anyone thinks that the VA is such a great entity has never had to deal with them. And btw, thanks for your service brother...... Anyone who is in favor of raising the minimum wage should consider taking care of the ones who truly deserve it. Our American Warriors.

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## CobraMustangSVT

Awww crap man.....this is not what I wanted to read.

I'm currently in the process of transferring all of my care to the VA. I've been going to private doctors for the past 11 years and thought hte VA would be great since I can get everything done at one place instead of needing one specialist for my back, a urologist, a regular doctor and a TRT doctor.

The docs there told me that they can do it all and they can do it better than the outside docs since they are all in one integrated unit.

Crap...........

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## CobraMustangSVT

> *2sox* I respect you but you are way off track here ! You offer herasay from friends as a statement and I promise you it is not a fact ! The VA offers basic medical care fore basic 1st aid and anything that requires real specialist are the Dr. who can't get a real job in the real world . I know you are a liberal and drink the Obama Kol-Aid but for Christ sake ? What real qualified Dr would work for the VA . . . because he has a heart for vets . . . .I think not and even if that is the case !! I know from hands on treatment aything that requires real spelized medicine is out sourced and sent to a real hospital !
> 
> Oh and try to receive pain management from the VA ? *NOT !*
> Try to get TRT from the VA ? *NOT !* 
> Try to go to an appointment and get there on time and *spend less that 7 hours there* at the VA ? *NOT !*
> As a vet you can live in the low rent district and be close to the VA or *drive 100 + miles round trip* for basic treatment ?
> Is it really free when they put a banana on your ear and say you are well ?
> 
> 
>  So on that statement I am qualified to call BULL $HIT !


Dammit, dammit, dammit......

I stopped TRT for the past 3 weeks because the VA wanted me to show them a low number before they can treat me.

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## Metalject

> My theory is that testosterone treatment will continue to prove itself as a life changing medicine that not only improves quality of life but more importantly prevents serious health issues. As the lawsuits continue, the research and facts about these drugs will be forced into the public eye and in my opinion, these lawsuits will be the start of educational process for our nation and our demonization of "steroids ." The same thing happened with certain birth controls and many other medicines. The drugs are introduced to the market, the skeptics shout on the side line and talk about how these drugs are killing and hurting people (please take killing the unborn out of this example) and most are shouting with ZERO knowledge or research on the subject. Once the lawsuits start coming, the courts and people get to hear and see the facts from both sides and that is the start of how the publics opinion will change.
> 
> Once the medical community and the drug companies see these lawsuits about death, stroke, and heart attack END with a losing decision (in favor of the manufacturers of testosterone)... We will start to see a windfall of acceptance and more educated people entering the discussion and testosterone will no longer be the devil.
> 
> After that happens, I believe that testosterone will grow to be a widely accepted medicine (much more so than it already is)
> 
> After that, men involved in all types of sports will argue their need for testosterone treatment for many of the reasons and benefits that have been proven and will continue to be proven.
> 
> After that, testosterone will start to become much more accepted for athletes as a way for these men to heal faster, prevent disease, and help to prevent injury... Not to mention help the older athletes achieve higher levels of testosterone due to deficiency. 
> ...


Steroid legality or at least a loosening of the noose - the argument has always been there's not enough research to risk a change in the laws, but that's simply not true. There is close to 100yrs of data and even new data is often ignored "because it's the right thing to do." Look at pot and how the laws are changing, a lot of this has to do with lobbying. Phillip Morris has fought to keep pot illegal for years out of fear of it taking away from cigarette sales, but some years back they changed their tune and have bought the TM Marlboro Greens...looks just like their cigarette packages except green with a pot leaf on the front. All the people that want pot legalized, that helps but they have money behind them now with groups like Phillip Morris. Someone in the pharmacy world will have to see the same thing for the laws to really ever change. 

Sports - people don't care if it's their team. Remember when Bonds was on the verge of breaking the home run record? Everyone hated him, except everyone in San Francisco, they cheered non-stop. But the sports argument is a small one and one the government uses to support their protecting the children and false morality claims. But only around 10% of all steroid users use gear for the purpose of sport and most of those are not professional. And the children argument, worst argument in the world but I'll let that one go for now. 

Bodybuilding - the problem isn't the amount of drugs. Bodybuilders were at their height of disgusting in the 1990's and that's when they had the largest crowd following. The problem with bodybuilding now is it wants to be hip and cool, it tries to present itself in a way that it's not and it's a turnoff. It makes it fake, stupid and honestly idiotic. They try to present these guys as rock star athletes now and make the events sound like you're missing the biggest concert that ever happened with wild crazy after parties that you'd see at a porn shoot. But it's anything but that - portray a false image and you look like an idiot. Bodybuilding will never be mainstream like the NFL but they'd have more of a following like they once did if they portrayed themselves as they actually are. And as far as steroids go, the NFL is right up their with the same levels of use - they just don't diet down to gross levels and take all the diuretics, that's the only difference. 

Most important - steroid users, unlike the pot crowd, they're scared. Steroid users hide behind fake names on message boards, admit to no one of their use and when it comes down to it, live as if they're ashamed of their use. Pot users, the exact opposite. When steroid users grow some balls (as big as atrophied balls can grow, lol), along with the pharmacy issue above, then things will change. Yes, more and more positive research helps but it will take all three things. But we could say most steroid users are idiotic meatheads, but again, that's just another false assumption. There was a huge study/survey of steroid users done several years ago, I can dig it up if anyone's interested, that described the population of steroid users by stats. The avg. income of a steroid user in the U.S. is $20,000+ a year more than the national average. 70 something % work in white collar jobs, the rate of college degrees was almost 98%, the rate of steroid users that were in a fraternity in college was less than 5%. The number of steroid users with criminal records was less than 1% and the average age was mid-30's and up. (tons of stats in this thing but that's all I can remember off the top of my head) The point - steroid users in the U.S. do not represent the crowd of people we're led to believe, at least not the majority.

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## JimR

> Obama Care will cost me almost $800 per month. That's not counting deductible and copays. That's one policy for a single 35yr old man. That is insane!!!


That doesn't sound right. I signed up and took no deductions and mine is 300 an month. Thats in Florida.

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## JimR

I fully realize I am talking to the hate Obama crowd but I know personally several people who have benefited from Obamacare and none of them are losers or looking for a handout. My Republican boss is quite happy with his daughters plan and my friend Lyndy who has a brain tumor couldn't get coverage till now. I guess she is a loser taking advantage of the folks who pay more.

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## system admin

All I have to say without arguing is..... you all just wait and see how the chips fall. You cant give more without taking more and soon the system will fall apart. With that being said, I want everyone in america to live the life I do. I want all of the lazy people in the world to continue being lazy and I want all of the people in the world who have no drive or no will to reach for the stars to own a star. I want people to have no reason to get up in the morning because everything will be provided for them. I want all races accept for whites to have special rights, UNTIL whites become the odd man out. I want all children to have $700 ipods and I want those same children to never know what its like to WANT FOR ANYTHING..... I want kids to not know how to interact on a person basis and to only communicate with a text message. I want healthcare for all and I want NO LINES while I wait my turn  :Wink:  

How about we all stop and dream of the most amazing dream.... and then lets make that dream AMERICA. 

Maybe I am a bit grumpy, but I am at the point of "I dont give a sh!t any more" and all I care about is ME and my family. WHAT a WONDERFUL world that would be.

I have a lot more to add to this but I am honestly just too tired of saying the same things day after day. I dont know about you guys, but I am ALMOST out of give a sh!t

Bc - "doubled up on my HCG "

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## Beethoven

> I fully realize I am talking to the hate Obama crowd but I know personally several people who have benefited from Obamacare and none of them are losers or looking for a handout. My Republican boss is quite happy with his daughters plan and my friend Lyndy who has a brain tumor couldn't get coverage till now. I guess she is a loser taking advantage of the folks who pay more.


Welcome aboard JimR. This is not a hate Obama crowd exclusively, there are plenty of idiots in government to go around on both sides. I would say this is a freedom, people who fend for themselves and provide for themselves. As you said it the problem lies right there. A Republican is happy that his daughter is paying for a plan that will surely pay out more than it collects. That is no longer insurance and he, like many other Republicans are ok with big government. Since that plan will operate in a short fall, who pays the difference? We do. When the insurance companies stop making profits, they will go out of business. When the government takes over and a shortfall continues, one of a few things will surely happen. Taxes will go up, at least for those of us who pay, services will be rationed, how that happens you can probably guess, and the government will want to control behavior. If you smoke you will HAVE to quit or either pay more or not get treated. If you're fat and hypertensive, better go on a diet and lose weight or else. Diabetic, well you can imagine. It's economics because again Jim, you don't work for free, neither does your republican boss but expect everyone in the insurance, medical and pharmaceutical companies to work for free, or at a discount. Yet the same people want to impose a higher minimum wage, drive up costs for places like Walmart but still want to shop there for the super low prices. Freedom, I am against Obama or anyone else who wants to infringe on my freedoms and my money, which I don't have a lot of and work very hard for. Give that raise to our troops who work, die and suffer all kinds of injuries protecting our freedom. Think about this, the government is always talking about social security going bankrupt by such a date, why don't we ever hear welfare is going to run out of money? Why is that? You don't run your household at a constant and high deficit, why is it okay for the government to do so? We need to wake up.

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## bullshark99

Hey BC, don't forget we should get rid of the honor roll in school because poor little Johnny"s feelings might be hurt because he only got C's. Let's stop handing out trophys because once again, poor little Johnny might not be as good as the other kids. It amazes me how some live in this make believe bubble. What is the point in life if nobody needs to do anything but yet they are provided with anything they so choose because in their opinion, something is not fair? Show me the incentive to work hard, be educated, have dedication and desire, hard work ethic , trying to better yourself?? Doesn't exist anymore with this President, if it were solely up to him we would all be holding hands singing Koomby ya. It will all come tumbling down and the bleeding heart liberals will have someone to blame.

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## Beethoven

> Steroid legality or at least a loosening of the noose - the argument has always been there's not enough research to risk a change in the laws, but that's simply not true. There is close to 100yrs of data and even new data is often ignored "because it's the right thing to do." Look at pot and how the laws are changing, a lot of this has to do with lobbying. Phillip Morris has fought to keep pot illegal for years out of fear of it taking away from cigarette sales, but some years back they changed their tune and have bought the TM Marlboro Greens...looks just like their cigarette packages except green with a pot leaf on the front. All the people that want pot legalized, that helps but they have money behind them now with groups like Phillip Morris. Someone in the pharmacy world will have to see the same thing for the laws to really ever change. 
> 
> Sports - people don't care if it's their team. Remember when Bonds was on the verge of breaking the home run record? Everyone hated him, except everyone in San Francisco, they cheered non-stop. But the sports argument is a small one and one the government uses to support their protecting the children and false morality claims. But only around 10% of all steroid users use gear for the purpose of sport and most of those are not professional. And the children argument, worst argument in the world but I'll let that one go for now. 
> 
> Bodybuilding - the problem isn't the amount of drugs. Bodybuilders were at their height of disgusting in the 1990's and that's when they had the largest crowd following. The problem with bodybuilding now is it wants to be hip and cool, it tries to present itself in a way that it's not and it's a turnoff. It makes it fake, stupid and honestly idiotic. They try to present these guys as rock star athletes now and make the events sound like you're missing the biggest concert that ever happened with wild crazy after parties that you'd see at a porn shoot. But it's anything but that - portray a false image and you look like an idiot. Bodybuilding will never be mainstream like the NFL but they'd have more of a following like they once did if they portrayed themselves as they actually are. And as far as steroids go, the NFL is right up their with the same levels of use - they just don't diet down to gross levels and take all the diuretics, that's the only difference. 
> 
> Most important - steroid users, unlike the pot crowd, they're scared. Steroid users hide behind fake names on message boards, admit to no one of their use and when it comes down to it, live as if they're ashamed of their use. Pot users, the exact opposite. When steroid users grow some balls (as big as atrophied balls can grow, lol), along with the pharmacy issue above, then things will change. Yes, more and more positive research helps but it will take all three things. But we could say most steroid users are idiotic meatheads, but again, that's just another false assumption. There was a huge study/survey of steroid users done several years ago, I can dig it up if anyone's interested, that described the population of steroid users by stats. The avg. income of a steroid user in the U.S. is $20,000+ a year more than the national average. 70 something % work in white collar jobs, the rate of college degrees was almost 98%, the rate of steroid users that were in a fraternity in college was less than 5%. The number of steroid users with criminal records was less than 1% and the average age was mid-30's and up. (tons of stats in this thing but that's all I can remember off the top of my head) The point - steroid users in the U.S. do not represent the crowd of people we're led to believe, at least not the majority.


I agree. I have brought that up before. We don't have a lobby and are made up of people from different sides of the aisle whom can't get over political ideology, and as you pointed out, have no money backing us.

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## system admin

Bullshark,

Its not just our President. Its our up and coming culture. Unfortunately, the only way to come back from this path we are on is for it all to burn to the ground and rebuild again. I know that sounds harsh, but IMHO that is what will need to be done. I am not a doomsday guy, but I do have supplies to survive long after something bad should happen lol

I dont want that joke to take away from what I feel, but I really do think the kids and young people of today may not have the mindset or "get it done" attitude it takes to be leaders. 

Bc

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## system admin

BTW, 

Good to see you Kel!!!! Man, I love seeing you here when I stop by.

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## Beethoven

> Bullshark,
> 
> Its not just our President. Its our up and coming culture. Unfortunately, the only way to come back from this path we are on is for it all to burn to the ground and rebuild again. I know that sounds harsh, but IMHO that is what will need to be done. I am not a doomsday guy, but I do have supplies to survive long after something bad should happen lol
> 
> I dont want that joke to take away from what I feel, but I really do think the kids and young people of today may not have the mindset or "get it done" attitude it takes to be leaders. 
> 
> Bc


Being rugged, self reliant is not preached anymore. There have to be winners and losers. You can learn as much from losing as you can by winning. It also teaches humility. Why is it always outrageous when oil companies profit, insurance companies profit, evil walmart profits but no one cares that College and Universities keep raising and raising their tuition, and the government doesn't intervene there, they just set up more student loans for you to pay. No one cares that University professors make six figures, some whom have never stepped out of the classroom. Yet the government wants to tell Walmart, oil companies and insurance companies how to run their businesses and how much to charge. Why aren't the same people screaming for subsidies for someone to go to Harvard or Yale? It's pure hypocrisy due to political beliefs and not equality or most importantly, FREEDOM.

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## kelkel

> There was a huge study/survey of steroid users done several years ago, I can dig it up if anyone's interested, that described the population of steroid users by stats. The avg. income of a steroid user in the U.S. is $20,000+ a year more than the national average. 70 something % work in white collar jobs, the rate of college degrees was almost 98%, the rate of steroid users that were in a fraternity in college was less than 5%. The number of steroid users with criminal records was less than 1% and the average age was mid-30's and up. (tons of stats in this thing but that's all I can remember off the top of my head) The point - steroid users in the U.S. do not represent the crowd of people we're led to believe, at least not the majority.


Ironically that sounds like the average first time Harley buyer as well.

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## Black

> Bullshark,
> 
> Its not just our President. Its our up and coming culture. Unfortunately, the only way to come back from this path we are on is for it all to burn to the ground and rebuild again. I know that sounds harsh, but IMHO that is what will need to be done. I am not a doomsday guy, but I do have supplies to survive long after something bad should happen lol
> 
> I dont want that joke to take away from what I feel, but I really do think the kids and young people of today may not have the mindset or "get it done" attitude it takes to be leaders. 
> 
> Bc


I'm right there with you brother. People think I'm joking when I say I'd rather live in a 'post-apocalyptic, Mad-Max' type world than continue to live in this world's current and ongoing state. Actually, fingers crossed, it is slowly heading down that path.

I could say so much more and have (out loud and to myself), but it does no good. Sad and disheartening.

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## Megalodon6

Off topic but I love mad max





> I'm right there with you brother. People think I'm joking when I say I'd rather live in a 'post-apocalyptic, Mad-Max' type world than continue to live in this world's current and ongoing state. Actually, fingers crossed, it is slowly heading down that path.
> 
> I could say so much more and have (out loud and to myself), but it does no good. Sad and disheartening.

----------


## 61er

> Pretty good stuff from a lot of you. Our current administration has done nothing but lie, hide, fudge, misrepresent, etc... 
> 
> Time will tell and none of us will have to debate soon enough.
> 
> 
> Here is something on Humana website that shows that testosterone is not covered:
> 
> https://www.humana.com/insurance-thr...ols/drug-list/
> 
> ...


I've followed your instructions and the results show that while some testosterone medications aren't covered by Humana, most remain covered. 

This thread began eight days ago with the following claim:

_"Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective."_

So far there have been 187 postings to this thread and not a shred of proof to the claim. Search engines return nothing.

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## Metalject

> I've followed your instructions and the results show that while some testosterone medications aren't covered by Humana, most remain covered. 
> 
> This thread began eight days ago with the following claim:
> 
> _"Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective."_
> 
> So far there have been 187 postings to this thread and not a shred of proof to the claim. Search engines return nothing.


I did the search as well. All I could find was that Androgel was still covered to some extent but that's it. But who knows how up to date the website is, I'd be shocked if it's updated regularly. Anyway, the best way to find out, have that insurance and see if it covers your TRT.

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## system admin

This was told to us by a physician with very good reputation. There is no agenda here and that is what he told us. There would be no reason for a good doctor to tell me that he just received a letter from Humana saying that they will not be covering testosterone treatment any longer.

I guess we will see.... like Obamacare lol 

If you have Humana, call them and find out if they cover it. BTW, I am not sure if you noticed, but injectable testosterone is not covered at all and the others are in a high tier that would cost you a lot of money.

Im waiting for response from calls we made. Will keep you all posted.

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## Megalodon6

I have BCBS not covered. But I am a loyal patient of lowt.com

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## Beethoven

> I've followed your instructions and the results show that while some testosterone medications aren't covered by Humana, most remain covered. 
> 
> This thread began eight days ago with the following claim:
> 
> _"Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective."_
> 
> So far there have been 187 postings to this thread and not a shred of proof to the claim. Search engines return nothing.


61er I was on humana up until about nine months ago when I began trt and my testosterone was not covered. I imagine the only reason BW was covered is probably because he was my primary care physician. But then again, I'm on Avmed now and all is the same except my physician. I can tell you this, NONE of the physicians I've spoken to like Obamacare. You would think that with all the potential business they'd be doing they would love it.

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## Beethoven

> Off topic but I love mad max


I love Mad Max.  :Smilie:

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## APIs

> BTW, I am not sure if you noticed, but injectable testosterone is not covered at all and the others are in a high tier that would cost you a lot of money.


Just an FYI, but IM Test Cyp is still covered by Oxford. Hope it stays that way...

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## 2Sox

> Dammit, dammit, dammit......
> 
> I stopped TRT for the past 3 weeks because the VA wanted me to show them a low number before they can treat me.


Cobra,

Don't give up hope. Not to make less of Buzz's experiences at all but you've got to look into things for yourself. I'd suggest you go slow. 

A good buddy of mine of thirty years, 100% disabled U.S. Navy Vietnam vet - with Hep C, has himself, his wife and four daughters treated by the VA all his adult life. Not a hiccup with his care. 

By the way, another fairly successful single payer U.S. Government sponsored system: Medicare. Just try to take away medicare from someone who has it - like myself! Not a chance. Why not Medicare for all and throw out the ACA? I'd go for that.

(Maybe this will have you guys talk about something else.) ;-)

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## Metalject

> Cobra,
> 
> Don't give up hope. Not to make less of Buzz's experiences at all but you've got to look into things for yourself. I'd suggest you go slow. 
> 
> A good buddy of mine of thirty years, 100% disabled U.S. Navy Vietnam vet - with Hep C, has himself, his wife and four daughters treated by the VA all his adult life. Not a hiccup with his care. 
> 
> By the way, another fairly successful single payer U.S. Government sponsored system: Medicare. Just try to take away medicare from someone who has it - like myself! Not a chance. Why not Medicare for all and throw out the ACA? I'd go for that.
> 
> (Maybe this will have you guys talk about something else.) ;-)


OK, I'll take a stab. Big difference in medicare and ACA. You pay into medicare for years and years, you're entire adult life. The ACA, you take money away from working people who are already also paying into medicare and giving it to others. That's the first difference and a massive one. 

If Obama care is to work at all, they will absolutely have to take more and more from others. So in the end, I will lose more of my paycheck to fund Obama care and there is no way they're going to stop taking away what I'm required to pay for medicare. As of now, 25% of all my pay goes to the federal government. That's not including all other taxes. Do you understand how much money that is? Granted, the total amount is relative to each individual's situation and total income but 25% plus all the other taxes puts a strain on anyone.

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## system admin

I am anxious to see what the middle class says when all of the costs for this thing show itself and there is a lot less money left in their bank accounts. All of those who think they are entitled to all of these handouts and who allow their IDEALS to get in the way of fiscal common sense will be the first to protest when THEY start to struggle. Its as simple as the "Waiting Game" now. In the mean time, I am just going to pour a drink and wait for the show.

However, I would like to make it clear that I do NOT want our amazing country to suffer or to become weak and fragile. I just simply have lost hope and think it will be too hard to change things without some sort of disastrous event.

----------


## Black

I'm curious if this ObamaCare will "wake up" the American Middle Class.

----------


## Beethoven

> Cobra,
> 
> Don't give up hope. Not to make less of Buzz's experiences at all but you've got to look into things for yourself. I'd suggest you go slow. 
> 
> A good buddy of mine of thirty years, 100% disabled U.S. Navy Vietnam vet - with Hep C, has himself, his wife and four daughters treated by the VA all his adult life. Not a hiccup with his care. 
> 
> By the way, another fairly successful single payer U.S. Government sponsored system: Medicare. Just try to take away medicare from someone who has it - like myself! Not a chance. Why not Medicare for all and throw out the ACA? I'd go for that.
> 
> (Maybe this will have you guys talk about something else.) ;-)


Well I happen to have my mother that's 91 years old and I can tell you Medicare on its own for her has not been that good. She came down with myasthenia graves some years ago and to make a long story short, I had to pay for a highly regarded specialist out of my own pocket for the correct diagnosis. Why you ask? Because Medicare part A still has co pays and out of pocket costs that for a working person might be tough, but a retired person widowed on a fixed income can not. So in comes the Medicare HMO plans. Not too bad except for a condition like hers, the meds were not covered. If she hadn't had me, forget about it. This woman came to this country, LEGALLY I might add with my father more than 60 years ago and NEVER had any government help. Any other immigrant today without being a citizen gets Medicare, Medicaid, low income housing etc, but the one who worked, paid taxes and became an American Citizen does not. Forgive me if I'm not thrilled. Again the welfare state at work. I looked up the budget from the CBO the other day and guess what, Medicare IS getting reduced money wise, mind you none of Obamas penalties or anything else has kicked in yet. It was supposed to but the executive order pen came out real quick due to upcoming elections, which btw is illegal. But what's a little illegality to this administration. The funny and sad thing is, if similar things were happening and this was a Republican president, these same people would be outraged and the media would be bashing 24X7. Romney did say that Russia would be a threat, and Medicare would be cut and all the left mocked him. Now this President spies on Americans, gave away or missiles defense from Europe, Russia invades Ukraine, a little thing considered an uprise of a few million is happening in Venezuela which the media hardly covers while University students are beaten and killed. Meanwhile or President is going on Jimmy Fallon, picking his March Madness brackets, Michelle is on yet another vacation in a communist country talking us down. The military is going to suffer extensive cuts, (your smooth running VA program) in lieu of more welfare. I'm sorry but that's down right embarrassing for this great country being divided and conquered from within.

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## Beethoven

(Maybe this will have you guys talk about something else.) ;-)
Like
I appreciate everyone's take on this thread. It's good that though we may disagree we can do it in a professional, educated fashion. Freedom of speech at its finest. I'm going to try and keep helping and learning about trt, I don't think any of us can change what's happening now for the time being. 2sox, you're on.

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## Metalject

> I am anxious to see what the middle class says when all of the costs for this thing show itself and there is a lot less money left in their bank accounts. All of those who think they are entitled to all of these handouts and who allow their IDEALS to get in the way of fiscal common sense will be the first to protest when THEY start to struggle. Its as simple as the "Waiting Game" now. In the mean time, I am just going to pour a drink and wait for the show.
> 
> However, I would like to make it clear that I do NOT want our amazing country to suffer or to become weak and fragile. I just simply have lost hope and think it will be too hard to change things without some sort of disastrous event.


The fact that median income is down $4500 hasn't pissed enough people off. And if you calculate inflation, (40kyr job) that's another $3600, a loss of $8100 that most people would have to spend working the same job 5yrs ago. (you can check any dollar amount and compare the dollars worth by year at:

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value from 1913-2014

Now how people cannot tell that they have this significant amount of money NOT in their pocket anymore is mind blowing. I honestly think you have to be borderline clinically retarded not to notice this. And that loss is only going to continue.

----------


## BuzzardMarinePumper

> Dammit, dammit, dammit......
> 
> I stopped TRT for the past 3 weeks because the VA wanted me to show them a low number before they can treat me.





Sorry man but run from the VA Endo I have a thread explaining how just plain stupid they are and I will up date it around the 9th of this mth next week so go to my profile and seen which thread it is you will be amazed at the ignorance of some of the comments the Endo gave me and he lied and what he didn't know the answers to he as a professional Dr. actully yried to Bull $hit me . I would give you the link but I am 54 self taught on puters and relly don't know how to post the link but you can find it in my profile under subscribed threads  :Smilie: 

I was diled i nnear perfect with a 886 on HCG which if I had dropped the HCG I would have most likely tested serum levels around 700 and went back to civilian MD because VA ENdo saw no reason to tst E2 ? WTF ? Anyway he tried to convience me about how I was about to die due to not above normal just the high end of normal RBC. Also he STATED if you needed and Ai you are taking to much Test and he would never script Injection they are a death sentence ! . Now Get this after my E2 came back from my Civilian Dr. E2 was 26 and It had been 18 on ,25 EOD so I was only on .25 the day after injections for a little over 3 weeks so I am staying at .25 the day after injection and should fall right bout in at E2 of 30  :Smilie:  and feel great on 180 mg of Cypionate . . .. underlying cause of need for high dose id high dose of opiates due to sever Trauma and RA .

 *NORMAL AND FEEL GOOD PROTICALL* 
1) I am on 90 mg every 3.5 days
2) .25 of generic adex day after injection and will be real close to 30 on E2 but will be 3 mths before I get another reading enless I can make VA Endo take it with Test next week
3) 150 iu's of HCG EVERY 3RD DAY and feel great and nuts are swinging in the wind 
4) took 14 mths to get here due to DA civilian Dr. but he scripts Test and ai . . . lol Ai at 1 mg daily but zI use a pill cutter OH and inject 200 mg EOW I inject every 3.5 days
__________________________________________________ _________________________

1) Now for the last 30 days I have done as VA Dr recommended cut Test Injections to 100 mg a week almost in half today I feel zacalak - $hit ? I wanted to do this to see if I had same results as when I 1st started TRT and the highest I got on 100MG a week was 389 and civilain Dr, said you are in normal range so your fixed . . .lol I screamed and yelled and got an Ai becuse at 100 mg a week my E2 was 72
2) I go next week to VA Endo and he will take a test reading and I expect it to be ball park 400 not optiminal for me . . .The VA endo said Optiminal not important only to be in normal range ? Now stop and think of how out right stupid this statement was ?
3) He said the only treatment he would give me was a gel and he would prescribe a heavy dose for me . . .I am thinking BS I will use his DA to get all the free BW I can and lie my ass off maybe get some free gel and he don't give a shit when I feel good and come back in next mth at 700 with no HCG the week of BW
4) I had high but in normal range for RBC and he said this coud kill me but yet he refused to do a therpudic blood draw ? Really concerned about my health and well being ? *NOT !*
5) I was there because I had an elevated PSA a sign of possible prostate cancer he never mentiond that ?
6) I told him I had Deep Vain Thrombious a few years ago and some of my toes were numb ? He didn't give a $hit about this ?
7) Not really high to be on TRT but colertroil was 3 point high and the average of high and low puts me in normal range .
8) Type II diabetic but due to TRT and exercise and diet A1C is 5 but he didn't even comment?
9) He even made a statement that back loading passgaeway could give a false reading on BW . . .total BS he is a DA and a looser (Oh I told him that in not thise exact words but i did say his treatment for TRT was out dated and he had no idea what he was doing
10) So he said I had issues to think I knew morw about TRT than he did so now I have to go see the Shrink because I want to feel good and he said that he was not concerned with me feeling good but proper TRT treatment required no HCG and no blood donations and most of all NEVER an AI .
11) So if you have a 1/2 a day to waste and want to mess with him go if you are going to a VA DR for TRT do not waste your time  :Smilie:  Sgt Bearden USMC Vet

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## Beethoven

> Sorry man but run from the VA Endo I have a thread explaining how just plain stupid they are and I will up date it around the 9th of this mth next week so go to my profile and seen which thread it is you will be amazed at the ignorance of some of the comments the Endo gave me and he lied and what he didn't know the answers to he as a professional Dr. actully yried to Bull $hit me . I would give you the link but I am 54 self taught on puters and relly don't know how to post the link but you can find it in my profile under subscribed threads 
> 
> I was diled i nnear perfect with a 886 on HCG which if I had dropped the HCG I would have most likely tested serum levels around 700 and went back to civilian MD because VA ENdo saw no reason to tst E2 ? WTF ? Anyway he tried to convience me about how I was about to die due to not above normal just the high end of normal RBC. Also he STATED if you needed and Ai you are taking to much Test and he would never script Injection they are a death sentence ! . Now Get this after my E2 came back from my Civilian Dr. E2 was 26 and It had been 18 on ,25 EOD so I was only on .25 the day after injections for a little over 3 weeks so I am staying at .25 the day after injection and should fall right bout in at E2 of 30  and feel great on 180 mg of Cypionate . . .. underlying cause of need for high dose id high dose of opiates due to sever Trauma and RA .
> 
>  *NORMAL AND FEEL GOOD PROTICALL* 
> 1) I am on 90 mg every 3.5 days
> 2) .25 of generic adex day after injection and will be real close to 30 on E2 but will be 3 mths before I get another reading enless I can make VA Endo take it with Test next week
> 3) 150 iu's of HCG EVERY 3RD DAY and feel great and nuts are swinging in the wind 
> 4) took 14 mths to get here due to DA civilian Dr. but he scripts Test and ai . . . lol Ai at 1 mg daily but zI use a pill cutter OH and inject 200 mg EOW I inject every 3.5 days
> ...


Don't feel bad, there are many civilian Drs who don't know trt either. My original Dr felt the same way about just being in range. Never tested free test or even estradiol. When I mentioned HCG he looked at me and said for what? It took me some time before I found my Dr now who is pretty well schooled in trt. He is also on trt, so maybe that's why he is well schooled. But here is the kicker, he's not an endo. He is a primary Dr and by luck I just happened to get new insurance where he is covered. Was going to pay out of pocket before the change. I have found in my time with the service that most of the really good Drs usually get out of the service and go private. They are not on the cutting edge as the private sector is. This has been pretty much a proven fact anywhere you look. Everyone thinks the Canadian system is the model but no one reports on the negatives of that system. Long lines, long waits, people waiting for surgery taking pills until their number is called. Sure, maybe for someone with a choice between no coverage at all and that might not seem too bad. But for those of us who are able to have elective surgery on demand or whatever procedure is needed, it will weigh heavy on us. This is not information I picked up on the internet in an article, although there was a piece on a news network some time ago, can't remember which, but is relayed directly to me by several Canadians I have met down here as well as people I personally know who spent some years in Canada. I again harp back on a high ranking Canadian official electing to have a heart procedure done in the U.S. And pay approx $20,000 to do so when it was available for no charge in his country. The media can try and spin it anyway they want by I assure you he is not ignorant or mis informed, on the contrary, he is well informed and chose not to put HIS life in their hands. We would not have that choice.

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## 2Sox

> (Maybe this will have you guys talk about something else.) ;-)
> Like
> I appreciate everyone's take on this thread. It's good that though we may disagree we can do it in a professional, educated fashion. Freedom of speech at its finest. I'm going to try and keep helping and learning about trt, I don't think any of us can change what's happening now for the time being. 2sox, you're on.


Just something I thought I'd post for good measure that ALL political strips should keep in mind. This is from Joseph Goebbels, the former Nazi minister of propaganda:

_“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”_

Now here we ought to substitute the word "oligarchy" for "state" because, it's common knowledge that an oligarchy is what we have firmly entrenched in this country and it is buying elections right under our noses.

On another note: I wish I was an expert on economics, on law, the ACA, so that I could knowlegeably comment on what you guys have been posting here. But unfortunately because I'm not, I'm not able to be as useful to you as I would like to be. You know that I care for and respect facts very much and I'd rather not comment unless I have them readily available. I do hope that if there are members on this forum who have been lurking on this thread, and who are knowledgeable in these areas, they would come out and contribute their comments. Remember: We have all colors of the flag here - red, blue, white...and some.

----------


## Beethoven

> Just something I thought I'd post for good measure that ALL political strips should keep in mind. This is from Joseph Goebbels, the former Nazi minister of propaganda:
> 
> _“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”_
> 
> Now here we ought to substitute the word "oligarchy" for "state" because, it's common knowledge that an oligarchy is what we have firmly entrenched in this country and it is buying elections right under our noses.
> 
> On another note: I wish I was an expert on economics, on law, the ACA, so that I could knowlegeably comment on what you guys have been posting here. But unfortunately because I'm not, I'm not able to be as useful to you as I would like to be. You know that I care for and respect facts very much and I'd rather not comment unless I have them readily available. I do hope that if there are members on this forum who have been lurking on this thread, and who are knowledgeable in these areas, they would come out and contribute their comments. Remember: We have all colors of the flag here - red, blue, white...and some.


First of all, 2Sox you are a well respected member of this forum, and I in particular have learned much from you on trt and probably think very much alike on the subject. Oligarchy, can we agree that it exists on both sides of the political aisle? On the right, supposedly big oil, Haliburton, etc. on the left, Solindra, GE, global warming, climate change whatever. So to say there is money behind this yes. Pres Obama out moneyed Mitt Romney so to imply that this is a one sided affair is really nieve and not realistic. The stories you've been reading on this thread for the most part is first hand accounts. I don't think we need an economist to explain to us that the government has no place telling any particular business how, where, when and what to charge for their service or product. Consumers decide that. You are free to buy or not to buy a service or product. As long as you are not infringing upon someone else's life or liberty you have the freedom to engage in that enterprise. If an employee doesn't like a particular job, move on. If you don't have the education to move on, get it. If there are shortages of employees or skilled people to fill a position the wage goes up. If it is an unskilled position where there are 20 people standing outside your door, the wage is lower. You can't expect a guy sweeping the floor is going to make what say an engineer in the firm is making. If you don't want to be a floor sweeper, go to school. It's free. The problem with this social type of thinking is people make some very bad choices in their lives, then don't like the outcome of where it brought them and now those of us who have managed to make the right ones, or at least made up for some poor ones be responsible for them. When the government messes with the open market, the market will adjust. Do you think legalizing twelve million more people will help or hurt the job market. It will drive down the wage. So the government raises the wage, the product or service price goes up. Either way WE the consumer of that good or service will pay. When you mandate insurance coverage for companies at over forty hours, everyone now becomes part time employees. The government with all their "good intentions" always mess up the process. When the company ceases to make a profit, they close their doors and everyone there is unemployed. So now, the government has to extend unemployment benefits because it doesn't recognize IT is the problem. Who pays those unemployment benefits you ask? WE do. Nothing in life is free nor should you expect it to be. The President is not donating his salary, on the contrary he has gotten rather wealthy. So has Al Gore. So he is allowed to have an environmental foot print the size of Rhode Island because he's got money to plant a bunch of trees? Well you and I don't. Why isn't he vilified? At the end he is just another rich guy but is above scrutiny because he is on their side where Mitt Romney is an EVIL rich guy. Are we seeing the hypocrisy yet?

----------


## kelkel

> BTW, 
> 
> Good to see you Kel!!!! Man, I love seeing you here when I stop by.



Thanks BC! You've been MIA lately. Dock the boat and come back on land.....

----------


## 2Sox

> First of all, 2Sox you are a well respected member of this forum, and I in particular have learned much from you on trt and probably think very much alike on the subject. Oligarchy, can we agree that it exists on both sides of the political aisle? On the right, supposedly big oil, Haliburton, etc. on the left, Solindra, GE, global warming, climate change whatever. So to say there is money behind this yes. Pres Obama out moneyed Mitt Romney so to imply that this is a one sided affair is really nieve and not realistic. The stories you've been reading on this thread for the most part is first hand accounts. I don't think we need an economist to explain to us that the government has no place telling any particular business how, where, when and what to charge for their service or product. Consumers decide that. You are free to buy or not to buy a service or product. As long as you are not infringing upon someone else's life or liberty you have the freedom to engage in that enterprise. If an employee doesn't like a particular job, move on. If you don't have the education to move on, get it. If there are shortages of employees or skilled people to fill a position the wage goes up. If it is an unskilled position where there are 20 people standing outside your door, the wage is lower. You can't expect a guy sweeping the floor is going to make what say an engineer in the firm is making. If you don't want to be a floor sweeper, go to school. It's free. The problem with this social type of thinking is people make some very bad choices in their lives, then don't like the outcome of where it brought them and now those of us who have managed to make the right ones, or at least made up for some poor ones be responsible for them. When the government messes with the open market, the market will adjust. Do you think legalizing twelve million more people will help or hurt the job market. It will drive down the wage. So the government raises the wage, the product or service price goes up. Either way WE the consumer of that good or service will pay. When you mandate insurance coverage for companies at over forty hours, everyone now becomes part time employees. The government with all their "good intentions" always mess up the process. When the company ceases to make a profit, they close their doors and everyone there is unemployed. So now, the government has to extend unemployment benefits because it doesn't recognize IT is the problem. Who pays those unemployment benefits you ask? WE do. Nothing in life is free nor should you expect it to be. The President is not donating his salary, on the contrary he has gotten rather wealthy. So has Al Gore. So he is allowed to have an environmental foot print the size of Rhode Island because he's got money to plant a bunch of trees? Well you and I don't. Why isn't he vilified? At the end he is just another rich guy but is above scrutiny because he is on their side where Mitt Romney is an EVIL rich guy. Are we seeing the hypocrisy yet?


Keeping in mind the quote above in post #205, I'll tell you what.. I've watched Fox, I've listened to Hannity and to Rush - all with a mixture of curiosity and incredulity. I've found Hannity to be a jaw-dropping, effortless liar, and Rush to be an extremely talented manipulator of actual facts and an adroit manufacturer of others. I say this to preface my next remark. 

Perhaps you and others would consider watching MSNBC for a few evenings to see the "Progressive" take on things? Or try listening to Randi Rhodes at Randirhodes.com. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts after this experience. (I'd also be curious about how many would actually accept this invitation.)

----------


## BuzzardMarinePumper

> Keeping in mind the quote above in post #205, I'll tell you what.. I've watched Fox, I've listened to Hannity and to Rush - all with a mixture of curiosity and incredulity. I've found Hannity to be a jaw-dropping, effortless liar, and Rush to be an extremely talented manipulator of actual facts and an adroit manufacturer of others. I say this to preface my next remark. 
> 
> Perhaps you and others would consider watching MSNBC for a few evenings to see the "Progressive" take on things? Or try listening to Randi Rhodes at Randirhodes.com. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts after this experience. (I'd also be curious about how many would actually accept this invitation.)



Hello my friend * 2sox* MSNBC or the communist News Network (CNN) Does not corner the market on liberal nuts ! Fox has it's fair share also ! There is a little Wormy looking guy with glasses Combs he tried to make the Col look like a fool and the Col. handled himself like the gentleman he is a decorated War hero, of interviewed the respected Patriot Col. Riliey with reguards to OAS That will be the peacful presentation by private citizens to the United States Govt. on May 16th to make demands and to actually form a tribunal to Remover from office all the Govet officials Rep and Dem alike that have perverted to constitution and have actully commited treason according to the Constitution of the United States of America

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## 2Sox

> *2sox* I respect you but you are way off track here ! You offer herasay from friends as a statement and I promise you it is not a fact ! The VA offers basic medical care fore basic 1st aid and anything that requires real specialist are the Dr. who can't get a real job in the real world . I know you are a liberal and drink the Obama Kol-Aid but for Christ sake ? What real qualified Dr would work for the VA . . . because he has a heart for vets . . . .I think not and even if that is the case !! I know from hands on treatment aything that requires real spelized medicine is out sourced and sent to a real hospital !
> 
> Oh and try to receive pain management from the VA ? *NOT !*
> Try to get TRT from the VA ? *NOT !* 
> Try to go to an appointment and get there on time and *spend less that 7 hours there* at the VA ? *NOT !*
> As a vet you can live in the low rent district and be close to the VA or *drive 100 + miles round trip* for basic treatment ?
> Is it really free when they put a banana on your ear and say you are well ?
> 
> 
>  So on that statement I am qualified to call BULL $HIT !


Buzz,
I respect what you express here. I have no doubt what you say is the truth - and you'll hear no further debate from me on this subject. Not being a veteran and not having first hand experience with the VA, I can only go on what has been related to me by my friends. I hope I made that clear. I feel bad that you've had such bad experiences there. I hope this administration and those in the future work to improve whatever is wrong at the VA. Our veterans deserve nothing less than the best care we can give them.

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## BuzzardMarinePumper

> Buzz,
> I respect what you express here. I have no doubt what you say is the truth - and you'll hear no further debate from me on this subject. Not being a veteran and not having first hand experience with the VA, I can only go on what has been related to me by my friends. I hope I made that clear. I feel bad that you've had such bad experiences there. I hope this administration and those in the future work to improve whatever is wrong at the VA. Our veterans deserve nothing less than the best care we can give them.



lol Buddy  :Smilie:  I thought you might be a warrior hater and not everyone is cut from the same cloth ! There are many codes in thr Corps that are not official USMC Memos  :Smilie:  But protect themselves is one of them live today to fight again another day and Marines are to fight for and protect those who can't protect themselves ? Oh and one is no Marine below the rank of E2 is allowed to think or use his brain only die and do as ordered  :Smilie: 

But if he get wounded is is 100% covered by Insurance  :Smilie:

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## Machdiesel

Not getting into this whole debate, but in reality it doesn't really matter for most if Insurance covers it or not. 60-100$ for a 10ml isn't expensive. I'm not saying it's not BS, we pay our premiums and ontop of that trt isn't covered, but I'm not worried either way. Clearly the system is broke and we are are in the wrong path, but as it pertains to my trt, lol I don't care

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## Beethoven

> Keeping in mind the quote above in post #205, I'll tell you what.. I've watched Fox, I've listened to Hannity and to Rush - all with a mixture of curiosity and incredulity. I've found Hannity to be a jaw-dropping, effortless liar, and Rush to be an extremely talented manipulator of actual facts and an adroit manufacturer of others. I say this to preface my next remark. 
> 
> Perhaps you and others would consider watching MSNBC for a few evenings to see the "Progressive" take on things? Or try listening to Randi Rhodes at Randirhodes.com. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts after this experience. (I'd also be curious about how many would actually accept this invitation.)


Yes my friend, I have watched everyone from Cris Matthews with his tingly leg to Candi Crowley, who tried to correct Mitt Romney during the debate when her facts were incorrect. Randi cant stay on the air because her show loses money. So yes even the fired Rick Sanchez trying to fence straddle down here. First I wonder if we can find some points we can agree on. 1. The media is biased one way or the other. I say this because we can agree Fox slants right, pretty much everyone else leans left. 2. The ACA was not bipartisan and wasn't even generated in the house because lack of support in your own party. So it was deemed passed via reconciliation. I wonder if we can agree on those two points. Otherwise this conversation is moot. It may sound that I think Republicans can do no wrong but that could not be further from the truth. I can call crap on both sides. I would challenge you to do some research and not blindly follow ANY of those outlets. They just serve to strengthen whichever base they cater to. So if we can agree on the two points we have something to build on. 3. Nothing in life is free, someone is paying for it. Let's start here and see where we end up.

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## 2Sox

> Yes my friend, I have watched everyone from Cris Matthews with his tingly leg to Candi Crowley, who tried to correct Mitt Romney during the debate when her facts were incorrect. Randi cant stay on the air because her show loses money. So yes even the fired Rick Sanchez trying to fence straddle down here. First I wonder if we can find some points we can agree on. 1. The media is biased one way or the other. I say this because we can agree Fox slants right, pretty much everyone else leans left. 2. The ACA was not bipartisan and wasn't even generated in the house because lack of support in your own party. So it was deemed passed via reconciliation. I wonder if we can agree on those two points. Otherwise this conversation is moot. It may sound that I think Republicans can do no wrong but that could not be further from the truth. I can call crap on both sides. I would challenge you to do some research and not blindly follow ANY of those outlets. They just serve to strengthen whichever base they cater to. So if we can agree on the two points we have something to build on. 3. Nothing in life is free, someone is paying for it. Let's start here and see where we end up.


Regrettably, I'll have to consider our conversation on the issue of Obamacare at an end. As I indicated previously, I haven't the information necessary to continue, and to be honest, I simply don't wish to debate it. No offense is intended by this. I'm not here to change minds - just to do my part in opening them a little. And to open mine to learn. And I have indeed learned a great deal.

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## BuzzardMarinePumper

Oh by the way this is not off topic if sucessful it would be the quickiest way possible to change the health care abortion as it is currently operating !

It has worked in other countries , Egypt, Syria in spite of the current administration giving arms to the Muslim Brotherrhood, Lybia, and many others have replaced corupt Governments over the past 3 years but at the cost of blood shed and it can work in this counrty ! Our Constutitions even gives the people the right to address the corupt government and present greviences. 

If enough people unite and educate themselves because what _Patriots for America_ are attempting are the rights afforded of every citizen in the United States of America and these rights are demanded to be exercised due to the actions and perversion by the House , Senate and the Executuve branches are nowhere close to the checks and balances of the way our Government was designed and is ignored by the leaders of all three brances of the current administrations of all parties, perversion of the Constitution ! 

Which if sucessful would over turn many if not all current Presidential Proclimations including OBOZO CARE ! Also release many of the Govt regulations and extra taxes placed on everything from *meds* to fuel and even cost the lives of a few owls but we could be totatlly self sufficent in non imported energy and release free enterprise and allow true capttilisim to let supply and demand work not Govt. regulated trade and taxes !! 

* THIS IS FROM MY EXPERIENCE AND HEARSY FROM OTHERS THAT THE VERY 1ST MONTH OF 2014 WHEN ONLY A PORTION OF OBOZO CARE WENT INTO EFFECT I AM ON FIXED INCOME AND SAVE MEDICAL BILLS EVERYWAY POSSIBLE FROM CICILIAN Dr. TO THE VA WHEN I CAN TELL THEM WHAT I NEED AND TO SUPPLY MEDICAL BASICS LIKE VISION AND HEARING AND SIMPLE BLOOD WORK AND THANK GOD BECAUSE OF THIS FORUM I NOW KNOW HOW TO READ MY BW BETTER THAN THE DR's  SAD  ! 



MY MEDICAL CARE INCREASED A LITTLE OVER 3 FOLD ? THAT IS AN INCOME OF UNDER $20K A YEAR SO PEOPLE WHO MAKE MORE PAY MORE THAN ME ! SO WHAT % OF THE LEGAL CITIZENS ARE SAVING FROM THE CHANGES IN THE US HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ? * 
  

 For more factual Information Google, OAS, "Operation American Spring," Patriots for America, OAS May 16 Occupy Washington D.C

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## Beethoven

> Regrettably, I'll have to consider our conversation on the issue of Obamacare at an end. As I indicated previously, I haven't the information necessary to continue, and to be honest, I simply don't wish to debate it. No offense is intended by this. I'm not here to change minds - just to do my part in opening them a little. And to open mine to learn. And I have indeed learned a great deal.


Very well, but if don't want you to mis interpret our discussion. It is not necessarily to change your mind, maybe mine. Adults discussing facts and ideas is what politics used to be about. Now it's the war on women, and all this other hyperbole and ad hominem attacks instead of debating ideas. Both sides mind you are at fault and are robbing us blind. And we can't get past our emotional commitment to these people and can't see the forest through the trees. So my point being is don't trust any of the media because they are all invested in themselves and not us. Question everything. Pres Bush was raked over the coals for spying on terrorists, (supposedly), and this administration is spying on everyone and no one cares. So where your medical records before resided exclusively with your Dr and you, now it's all going to be digital in a government data base. If that doesn't scare the hell out of you then we truly are at the end as there is no more to discuss. I don't want anyone other than my Dr or myself with my medical records. Why? It's none of their damn business. But Obamacare operates on the basis that millions of HEALTHY working adults who don't need it or often pay as you go HAVE to sign up and pay for a service they don't need so that the others may have it. And at a cheaper rate. So the government is forcing Americans to purchase a product. That is not what this country is about, and if you can't see the places this can lead to, you are blindly trusting these people. If it were a Republican president would you blindly follow or would you question them? Question all of them for government has become self serving and not serving us.

BuzzardMarineThumper..... Semper Fi brother.

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## Beethoven

We have been talking a lot of how the ACA / Obamacare has affected many of us on this thread but not many are familiar with just how this legislation was forced through. You can find all of this for yourself but this is a condensed version:

October 15, 2012
How Obamacare Became the “Law of the Land”
So how did Obamacare become a law? It’s actually pretty interesting. If you recall, the Democrats in the House weren’t able to pass their version of a Healthcare law. Because all revenue bills have to originate in the House of Representatives, the Senate found a bill that met those qualifications: HR3590, a military housing bill. They took out essentially all of the wording of it, and turned it into the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Obamacare. It gets better.
The Senate at that time had 60 Democrats, just enough to pass Obamacare. After the bill passed the Senate tho, Democrat Senator Ted Kennedy died. In his place, Massachusetts elected Republican Scott Brown. That meant that, if the House made any changes to the bill, the Senate wouldn’t have the necessary number of votes to pass the corrected bill, since they knew no Republicans would vote for Obamacare. So they made a deal with the Democrat‐controlled House of Representatives: the House would pass the Senate bill without any changes, IF the Senate agreed to pass a separate bill by the House that made changes to the Senate version of Obamacare. This second bill was called the Reconciliation Act of 2010. It made a bunch of detail changes, and added some things. So the House passed PPACA, the Senate bill, as well as their Reconciliation Act. So now PPACA was ready for the President to sign, but the Senate still needed to pass the Reconciliation Act from the House. Confused yet?
Now, remember that the Senate only had 59 votes to pass the Reconciliation Act since Republican Scott Brown replaced Democrat Ted Kennedy. In order to pass the Reconciliation Act, therefore, the Democrats in the Senate decided to change the rules. They declared that they could use the “Reconciliation Rule”—this is a different “reconciliation” than the House bill now. This rule was only used for budget item approval, so that budget items could be passed with only 51 votes in the Senate, not the usual 60. This rule was never intended to be used for legislation of the magnitude of Obamacare. Too bad... they used it anyway. So then both of the “Acts” passed both houses of Congress and were then signed by President Obama. All done by Democrats without a single Republican vote in favor of it. To quote Democrat Rep. Alcee Hastings of the House Rules Committee during the bill process: “We’re making up the rules as we go along”. They certainly couldn’t have made this law without it. How do you feel about that?

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## 2Sox

> We have been talking a lot of how the ACA / Obamacare has affected many of us on this thread but not many are familiar with just how this legislation was forced through. You can find all of this for yourself but this is a condensed version:
> 
> October 15, 2012
> How Obamacare Became the “Law of the Land”
> So how did Obamacare become a law? It’s actually pretty interesting. If you recall, the Democrats in the House weren’t able to pass their version of a Healthcare law. Because all revenue bills have to originate in the House of Representatives, the Senate found a bill that met those qualifications: HR3590, a military housing bill. They took out essentially all of the wording of it, and turned it into the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Obamacare. It gets better.
> The Senate at that time had 60 Democrats, just enough to pass Obamacare. After the bill passed the Senate tho, Democrat Senator Ted Kennedy died. In his place, Massachusetts elected Republican Scott Brown. That meant that, if the House made any changes to the bill, the Senate wouldn’t have the necessary number of votes to pass the corrected bill, since they knew no Republicans would vote for Obamacare. So they made a deal with the Democrat‐controlled House of Representatives: the House would pass the Senate bill without any changes, IF the Senate agreed to pass a separate bill by the House that made changes to the Senate version of Obamacare. This second bill was called the Reconciliation Act of 2010. It made a bunch of detail changes, and added some things. So the House passed PPACA, the Senate bill, as well as their Reconciliation Act. So now PPACA was ready for the President to sign, but the Senate still needed to pass the Reconciliation Act from the House. Confused yet?
> Now, remember that the Senate only had 59 votes to pass the Reconciliation Act since Republican Scott Brown replaced Democrat Ted Kennedy. In order to pass the Reconciliation Act, therefore, the Democrats in the Senate decided to change the rules. They declared that they could use the “Reconciliation Rule”—this is a different “reconciliation” than the House bill now. This rule was only used for budget item approval, so that budget items could be passed with only 51 votes in the Senate, not the usual 60. This rule was never intended to be used for legislation of the magnitude of Obamacare. Too bad... they used it anyway. So then both of the “Acts” passed both houses of Congress and were then signed by President Obama. All done by Democrats without a single Republican vote in favor of it. To quote Democrat Rep. Alcee Hastings of the House Rules Committee during the bill process: “We’re making up the rules as we go along”. They certainly couldn’t have made this law without it. How do you feel about that?



No debate, but it would be good to cite the source when you post a quote. I'm curious to know.

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## Beethoven

> No debate, but it would be good to cite the source when you post a quote. I'm curious to know.


Actually I had that on my computer and don't remember the site. (It was a newspaper site from Oregon don't remember which) I only downloaded it because it was a short version. You can read the extended version on Wikipedia and it will confirm the points. But it's rather long and drawn out, but I did verify then and now. Sorry about that but I will the next time.

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## Beethoven

The long version

Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## wellshii

This country is shit.Thats all I have to say.

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## 2Sox

> This country is shit.Thats all I have to say.


Too bad you decided on this as your first post. How long have you been around? Never mind.

There is a solution to your concern, however. Make sure your passport is up to date, pack your belongings, and buy a one way ticket to a country where you believe you can do better.

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## Metalject

> Too bad you decided on this as your first post. How long have you been around? Never mind.
> 
> There is a solution to your concern, however. Make sure your passport is up to date, pack your belongings, and buy a one way ticket to a country where you believe you can do better.


That's definitely an option, and I've often said the same thing to people. But, there's also the idea of changing the country. For example, when it all started, those that opposed British rule could have left and gone somewhere else, no one was stopping them, and some may have very well left, who knows. But it's hard to deny, America is a far cry from what it once was. 

I was watching a little of the coverage of the anniversary of the Boston terror attack. They were talking about how strong the city was, how the people stood up to the terror, etc. I immediately thought, "what a load of crap." The city went on lock down, a militarized police force roamed the street and we smiled about it. It was one of the most un-American things I've ever seen. 

Taxes - half the country pays 20-40% of their income to the government. That's not including all the hidden taxes, sales tax, state taxes, etc. In no way was that ever intended for the U.S. and on its basis contradicts one of the two primary reasons the U.S. became a sovereign nation. 

Reason number 2 - liberty. Can anyone honestly say liberty is upheld to its fullest extent in the U.S. anymore? Is it better than a lot of other places? Of course, but that doesn't mean anything. Your money is taken, you are regulated into the ground at every turn. And heaven forbid, don't use the word God in the wrong place, you might offend someone and cause them irreversible suffering. And your opinions on anything, social matters, they better be approved or you deserve to be humiliated and made a fool. Oh, and you have low testosterone ? Well we will decide how we let you handle that. That's what the U.S. is becoming "we will decide" not you, because you are not smart enough or capable of making your own decisions. How about a police force that is rapidly becoming an army that doesn't serve the people but rules the people? Most respect the police out of fear. And last but not least, our leaders, the so-called "public servants." You cannot rule over men and serve, that's the ultimate contradiction. 

You can still love your country and hate what it's becoming. You still have the liberty to do that, thankfully.

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## Chicagotarsier

When asked to compute the number was 20 BILLION just in insulin and glucophage and ace inhibitors. You hit the nail on the head. Third month trt and i have cut out all diabetic meds minus glucophage and working my arse off to drop it soon via weight loss. It is not just facilitated by USA it is Big Pharma. Half the insulin sold int he USA is long acting and comes from Europe (Lantus) with much of the glucophage coming from there also.



> No no, see there is BIG money to be made due to Obesity, diabetes, blood pressure and especially cholesterol.
> 
> With HRT it many times lowers blood pressure, causes weight/fat loss lower cholesterol etc. They dont want to back anything that works as a cure. They want to treat the symptoms. There is more money to be made that way.

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## Chicagotarsier

No offense but horrible attitude. I had no idea on trt and no US doc pointed me toward that. Only by CHANCE and in CHINA did I learn my actual body issue is low test. Saying "I got mine and F everyone else" is very sophmoric and girl scoutish as in _I sold my cookies and F you for not making quota_. How many people do you suppose there are....in the USA...your brothers and sister in the country...that are being held in pain and slavery to meds they really do not need? Just a bad attitude in general to be like that from my point of view. 


> Not getting into this whole debate, but in reality it doesn't really matter for most if Insurance covers it or not. 60-100$ for a 10ml isn't expensive. I'm not saying it's not BS, we pay our premiums and ontop of that trt isn't covered, but I'm not worried either way. Clearly the system is broke and we are are in the wrong path, but as it pertains to my trt, lol I don't care

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## Chicagotarsier

You need to read about rex 84 and the Russian Socialist teacher implant into the school systems since the 60s. Nakita said he would defeat the USA without firing a shot...via Socialism. He is the Babe Ruth of politics. He called his shot and knocked it out of the park.

Personally you are an American if you are on American soil or not. My military career had me off US soil for all but 3-years of service. What does that have to do with anything? in 2007 just before the collapse I moved my businesses outside of the USA and started the process of leaving too. It is amazing how in China I have

MORE FREEDOM and LESS BS EXPENSE than when I was on US soil. Here are some examples.

Cell Unlimited Talk and Text and Mobile Internet Monthly.

US 80 bucks unless you go with a low cost provider with less coverage.
China 20 bucks a month 

Broadband Internet 20M +
US 70 bucks a month plus tax
China 20 bucks a month period

Public Transport

Chicago 2.75 USD each way bus or train
China 20 cents train 8 cents bus with far more routs and better coverage of schedule

Now there are many things that are different between the two countries but in general it cost me 1400 USD to live in Chicago minus rent a month. In Beijing it costs 300 MAX. 

As far as telling people to grab their passport and jet the USA...I did. Happier for it. Richer for it. I do not pay the tax to support the people keeping you in slavery so it is a win win. Sooner or later people int he USA will learn and get off the sofa and start burning trash in Senators and Reps yards at random hours. Until then keep handing out all the freebies and sticking the head in the dirt lol.




> That's definitely an option, and I've often said the same thing to people. But, there's also the idea of changing the country. For example, when it all started, those that opposed British rule could have left and gone somewhere else, no one was stopping them, and some may have very well left, who knows. But it's hard to deny, America is a far cry from what it once was. 
> 
> I was watching a little of the coverage of the anniversary of the Boston terror attack. They were talking about how strong the city was, how the people stood up to the terror, etc. I immediately thought, "what a load of crap." The city went on lock down, a militarized police force roamed the street and we smiled about it. It was one of the most un-American things I've ever seen. 
> 
> Taxes - half the country pays 20-40% of their income to the government. That's not including all the hidden taxes, sales tax, state taxes, etc. In no way was that ever intended for the U.S. and on its basis contradicts one of the two primary reasons the U.S. became a sovereign nation. 
> 
> Reason number 2 - liberty. Can anyone honestly say liberty is upheld to its fullest extent in the U.S. anymore? Is it better than a lot of other places? Of course, but that doesn't mean anything. Your money is taken, you are regulated into the ground at every turn. And heaven forbid, don't use the word God in the wrong place, you might offend someone and cause them irreversible suffering. And your opinions on anything, social matters, they better be approved or you deserve to be humiliated and made a fool. Oh, and you have low testosterone ? Well we will decide how we let you handle that. That's what the U.S. is becoming "we will decide" not you, because you are not smart enough or capable of making your own decisions. How about a police force that is rapidly becoming an army that doesn't serve the people but rules the people? Most respect the police out of fear. And last but not least, our leaders, the so-called "public servants." You cannot rule over men and serve, that's the ultimate contradiction. 
> 
> You can still love your country and hate what it's becoming. You still have the liberty to do that, thankfully.

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## Black

> That's definitely an option, and I've often said the same thing to people. But, there's also the idea of changing the country. For example, when it all started, those that opposed British rule could have left and gone somewhere else, no one was stopping them, and some may have very well left, who knows. But it's hard to deny, America is a far cry from what it once was.
> 
> I was watching a little of the coverage of the anniversary of the Boston terror attack. They were talking about how strong the city was, how the people stood up to the terror, etc. I immediately thought, "what a load of crap." The city went on lock down, a militarized police force roamed the street and we smiled about it. It was one of the most un-American things I've ever seen.
> 
> Taxes - half the country pays 20-40% of their income to the government. That's not including all the hidden taxes, sales tax, state taxes, etc. In no way was that ever intended for the U.S. and on its basis contradicts one of the two primary reasons the U.S. became a sovereign nation.
> 
> Reason number 2 - liberty. Can anyone honestly say liberty is upheld to its fullest extent in the U.S. anymore? Is it better than a lot of other places? Of course, but that doesn't mean anything. Your money is taken, you are regulated into the ground at every turn. And heaven forbid, don't use the word God in the wrong place, you might offend someone and cause them irreversible suffering. And your opinions on anything, social matters, they better be approved or you deserve to be humiliated and made a fool. Oh, and you have low testosterone ? Well we will decide how we let you handle that. That's what the U.S. is becoming "we will decide" not you, because you are not smart enough or capable of making your own decisions. How about a police force that is rapidly becoming an army that doesn't serve the people but rules the people? Most respect the police out of fear. And last but not least, our leaders, the so-called "public servants." You cannot rule over men and serve, that's the ultimate contradiction.
> 
> You can still love your country and hate what it's becoming. You still have the liberty to do that, thankfully.


Very well said.

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## Beethoven

Chicago, economically you are right. China isn't buying into all the BS that this country has. America was an economical giant before the socialist mind set. We have strayed far away from our Constitution and that is where the problem lies. The left doesn't like the Constitution and many have said so. One of our Justices in the Supreme Court has advised that other countries not copy our Constitution. There is our problem. Did anyone catch Joe Bidens' comment to the victims of the Boston Bombers? How it was "worth it"? It's a good thing he didn't misspell potatoe.

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## Beethoven

Also Chicago, don't kid yourself about "freedom" in China. You don't have the freedom to criticize that government out load for long. Although there is an attack on that in this country. CEO's are forced to resign for a political contribution, Dropbox is under pressure to for the removal of Condoleeza Rice from their board of directors for her political views. This from the party that preaches "tolerance". The same political people who only use the "bi partisan" term when they are the minority party. Political correctness run amuck, taxes upon taxes upon taxes. It's going to have to come to a head sometime.

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## Black

> Also Chicago, don't kid yourself about "freedom" in China. You don't have the freedom to criticize that government out load for long. Although there is an attack on that in this country. CEO's are forced to resign for a political contribution, Dropbox is under pressure to for the removal of Condoleeza Rice from their board of directors for her political views. This from the party that preaches "tolerance". The same political people who only use the "bi partisan" term when they are the minority party. Political correctness run amuck, taxes upon taxes upon taxes. *It's going to have to come to a head sometime.*


Right there in bold. You don't even have to have any knowledge of politics in the United States to see that things are starting to boil over (or in some cases, already have). The sad part is, "we the people" control this country. But many are too afraid to stand up and say something. They let fear control them.

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## Beethoven

Anyone thinking Gov't run healthcare would be great should pay attention to what's happening with the VA.

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## The_Crawfish

> Anyone thinking Gov't run healthcare would be great should pay attention to what's happening with the VA.


and medicare, and social security, and the post office, and..........................

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## WestVillTom

I've been on TRT for a year and a half, new pre-approval policy took effect this month. It's only covered if you have two blood tests of 280 or below-- my pre-treatment figures were too high but not by much





> Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.

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## CobraMustangSVT

> I've been on TRT for a year and a half, new pre-approval policy took effect this month. It's only covered if you have two blood tests of 280 or below-- my pre-treatment figures were too high but not by much


Hi,
Can you miss a couple of doses and then just retest? If you do that, then your T levels should be low enough to qualify.

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## almostgone

I'm on a very outdated TRT, but the pre-nogotiated rates for.services between my insurance company and my primary doc. are still in effect....thus far.

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## ppwc1985

I hear so much info that just doesn't make sense. I have blue cross and they didn't cover it before, but now as of the first of the year they do. Go figure.

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