# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > SUPPLEMENTS >  Best natural test booster?

## Guerilla

non PH... lets hear em!

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## MACHINE5150

Zinc and Magnesium works well for me right before bed time.

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## bigslick7878

All garbage and a waste of money.

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## n00bs

Zinc
Nettle root extract

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## 2jz_calgary

I've used tribulus...dosnt work for me....just started zma seems to be working.I've read that tongkat ali when genuine works wonders.plan to use it for my next pct....it's pricy though.

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## X83

ZMA or Z-force works well.

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## bigslick7878

ZMA has been shown to be only valuable in _massive_ doses, like an entire bottle at one time. Problem with that is the toxicity level in that amount.

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## X83

> ZMA has been shown to be only valuable in _massive_ doses, like an entire bottle at one time. Problem with that is the toxicity level in that amount.


Not a good idea; too much magnesium will cause low blood pressure and an irregular heartbeat.

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## bigslick7878

> Not a good idea; too much magnesium will cause low blood pressure and an irregular heartbeat.


Exactly.

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## Van Suka

Zinc
Stinging Nettle
Ashwagandha
Lots of sleep

ZMA can get expensive. Better to take Calcium+Magnesium and Zinc (make sure zinc is not taken together with Calcium however).

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## X83

> (make sure zinc is not taken together with Calcium however).


Just curious as to why?

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## dec11

> *ZMA has been shown to be only valuable in massive doses*, like an entire bottle at one time. Problem with that is the toxicity level in that amount.


 thts rubbish, i used it for years at the recommended dosage and it helps nicely

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## dec11

> Zinc
> Stinging Nettle
> Ashwagandha
> Lots of sleep
> *
> ZMA can get expensive*. Better to take Calcium+Magnesium and Zinc (make sure zinc is not taken together with Calcium however).


 its one of the cheapest supps in the UK

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## X83

> its one of the cheapest supps in the UK


I agree ZMA is only around eight bucks for 90-pills and the Z-Force is around seventeen bucks for 120 pills. 

ZMA contains 450mg of magnesium plus 30mg of zinc with 12mg of vitamin B6 

The Z-Force contains the following plus a few more supplements. 

Magnesium: 450 mg
Zinc: 30 mg
Vitamin B6: 11 mg 
Potassium: 10 mg 
Vitamin C: 250 mg 
Vitamin E: 100 IU 

Proprietary Anabolic Herbal Blend: 785mg
-Tribulus Terrestris Extract (standardized for steroidal saponins), Mucuna Puriens (seeds standardized for l-dopa), Polypodium, Vulagare (suma root standardized for 20-hydroxyecdysone)

LPC (lysophosphatidylcholine) 100mg
NAC (n-acetyl-cysteine)200mg

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## dec11

> I agree ZMA is only around eight bucks for 90-pills and the Z-Force is around seventeen bucks for 120 pills. 
> 
> ZMA contains 450mg of magnesium plus 30mg of zinc with 12mg of vitamin B6 
> 
> The Z-Force contains the following plus a few more supplements. 
> 
> Magnesium: 450 mg
> Zinc: 30 mg
> Vitamin B6: 11 mg 
> ...


id just go for plain zma, trib is absolute bollocks and one of the biggest supp market cons

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## Van Suka

> Just curious as to why?


They will compete with each other for absorption. Calcium will always win the fight. Also, many tablets use calcium as a binding agent, so careful when taking zinc with other tabs. I like to take my zinc in the morning with Vitamin C, Ashwagandha, Stinging Nettle, Vitamin E and fish oils. I use to take Zinc before bedtime as well but no longer as I now take Calcium + Magnesium to help with deep sleep, which is what is going to help bring test levels up.

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## X83

> They will compete with each other for absorption. Calcium will always win the fight. Also, many tablets use calcium as a binding agent, so careful when taking zinc with other tabs. I like to take my zinc in the morning with Vitamin C, Ashwagandha, Stinging Nettle, Vitamin E and fish oils. I use to take Zinc before bedtime as well but no longer as I now take Calcium + Magnesium to help with deep sleep, which is what is going to help bring test levels up.


Great info... now I need to reschedule my supplement plan.

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## tjax03

> thts rubbish, i used it for years at the recommended dosage and it helps nicely


Sounds like a placebo effect. More than one study has confirmed that ZMA is only beneficial to those who are deficient in zinc or magnesium. Then again, you may have some physiological disposition to becoming depleted of those minerals.

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## bigslick7878

> Sounds like a placebo effect. More than one study has confirmed that ZMA is only beneficial to those who are deficient in zinc or magnesium. Then again, you may have some physiological disposition to becoming depleted of those minerals.


Thank you. There have been NUMEROUS studies that say this, maybe he should try reading them. 

ZMA was just another supplement that came about during the boom, caught on like wildfire but just like almost every other one has been debunked many times over in recent years.

But let him keep thinking it is doing something for him, it's his money he is wasting. The mind is a very powerful thing.

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## F4iGuy

Save your $

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## JustDoIt12

do legs

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## dec11

> Sounds like a placebo effect. More than one study has confirmed that ZMA is only beneficial to those who are deficient in zinc or magnesium. Then again, you may have some physiological disposition to becoming depleted of those minerals.


no its not placebo, ive consumed enough supps over 17yrs to know what works or not. it works and theres enuf test evidence to prove it also

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## dec11

> Thank you. There have been NUMEROUS studies that say this, maybe he should try reading them. 
> 
> ZMA was just another supplement that came about during the boom, caught on like wildfire but just like almost every other one has been debunked many times over in recent years.
> 
> But let him keep thinking it is doing something for him, it's his money he is wasting. The mind is a very powerful thing.


condesending parrot. seriousiy steroid .com is full of toolboxes these days

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## jimmyinkedup

> condesending parrot dickhead. seriousiy steroid.com is full of toolboxes these days


Yeah you would prob be more comfortable at one of those sites crawling with company reps and their lackies. That way when you claim a uselesss supp like ZMA works for you - you could have 15 reps or made up users that are reps agree with you. THEN you could waste your money on this crap with a clear conscience. 

ZMA & Herbal test boosters are both uselss.

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## dec11

> Yeah you would prob be more comfortable at one of those sites crawling with company reps and their lackies. That way when you claim a uselesss supp like ZMA works for you - you could have 15 reps or made up users that are reps agree with you. THEN you could waste your money on this crap with a clear conscience. 
> 
> ZMA & Herbal test boosters are both uselss.


wtf are you on about?! i never once claimed 'test boosters' worked!! and i never claimed tht zma raises testosterone either, all i know is i used it alot before i used aas and i was significantly stronger on it and slept alot better (which, as the educated amoungst us know, boosts performance) I seriously dont know what yous are on about, are you trying to compare zma to aas or summit? there are channels for it to produce effect other than the testosterone route you know.
oh and heres a study esp for you twats  :Smilie: 

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Supplements/ZMA.html

now OP, you can decide between the study and the 'we know everything' camp on here. *i would never recommend anything that hasnt worked for me, period*

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## jimmyinkedup

> wtf are you on about?! *Nothing you claim this site full of toolboxes - i simply stated you may be more comfortable on a site where people wil reenforce your opinions..not tell the truth*
> i never once claimed 'test boosters' worked!! and i never claimed tht zma raises testosterone either, all i know is i used it alot before i used aas and i was significantly stronger on it and slept alot better (which, as the educated amoungst us know, boosts performance) 
> I seriously dont know what yous are on about, are you trying to compare zma to aas or summit?*I didnt compare ZMA to anything
> * 
> there are channels for it to produce effect other than the testosterone route you know. *Yeah except the study in your ARTICLE attributed any benefits to test and igf levels...SOOO....*
> oh and heres a study esp for you twats 
> 
> http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Supplements/ZMA.html
> 
> now OP, you can decide between the study and the 'we know everything' camp on here. *i would never recommend anything that hasnt worked for me, period*



Now on to your "study" : 
First - its not a study its an article. 
Second - the references for the article are a site that sells supplements , the "discoverer" or the supp that stands to directly financially benfit from its sale , and a "study"
third - on to this study - it was done on 8 players..it was funded by Conte (yeah BALCO) - again the one that directly financially benfits from successful sales of the supp. Many people believe that the zma provided for the study was "tainted" - not a stretch considering Contes record of conduct is it?

Now here is a real , unbiased ZMA study , Read away :

_ZMA is totally ineffective, say German sports scientists in an article published in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. The researchers tested a couple of bottles of SNAC System’s ZMA from the bodybuilding.com webshop. SNAC is Victor Conte’s company, the genius behind the BALCO scheme and the inventor of ZMA.

The team of researchers led by Wilhelm Schaenzer gave seven fitness fanatics the recommended dose of ZMA – three capsules per day, providing a total of thirty milligrams of zinc, 450 milligrams of magnesium and 11 milligrams of vitamin B6. The researchers made sure the athletes followed the advice of the manufacturer. The participants were asked to swallow the capsules with water between dinner and bedtime at minimum 1 h after the last food intake. Seven other athletes were given a placebo.

The Germans then monitored the concentration of androgens in the blood their subjects for 56 days. The results are shown below. The white bars represent the testosterone level of the test subjects in the placebo group. The grey bars represent the testosterone level of the test subjects in the ZMA group.



Effect: nada.

When the researchers measured the concentrations of a series of natural androgens in the test subjects' urine the story was pretty much the same. The concentrations are listed in the table, but not in straightforward milligrams, as the figures have undergone statistical processing. But the message is clear. ZMA does not raise the androgen level. If anything, it appears to lower it a little.



The researchers measured the zinc intake of the athletes before starting the experiment. Their levels were between 12 and 23 milligrams per day, more than the daily requirement. Recent trials have shown that athletes make more testosterone if they take zinc supplements. [Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2006 Feb-Apr;27(1-2):247-52.] But these athletes probably had a zinc deficiency, the Germans reason. 



ZMA has been tested a couple of times. In the first case ZMA came out tops, and the abstract of the study was distributed to much acclaim. That research was done by supplements manufacturer himself. The manufacturer first claimed that the study had been published in the prestigious Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, [www.bodyandfitness.com] but this was not the case. The research was published on the JEPonline website. [JEPonline, 3(4): 26-36, 2000.]

A few years later, Richard Kreider studied the effectiveness of ZMASS, a supplement containing ZMA and L-Dopa produced by Cytodyne. ZMASS did nothing. Almost nothing. [J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2004 Dec 31;1(2):12-20.]

Meanwhile Victor Conte is doing very well thank you from the sales of ZMA, according to media reports. From the enquiry into the Balco affair we know that Conte gave athletes his invisible designer steroids on condition that they openly sung ZMA’s praises. This is how Marion Jones won her medals in the 2000 Olympics.

The Germans do have some good news about ZMA as well though. The supplement scarcely raises zinc levels in the body. The athletes excreted nearly all the extra zinc in their urine. ZMA users also urinated more – which explains why some ZMA users think that the stuff makes them ‘drier’. They dehydrate.

The rapid disappearance of extra zinc from the body is good news for all those bodybuilders who were duped into using ZMA. Researchers suspect that high levels of zinc intake can increase the risk of prostate cancer [J Natl Cancer Inst. 2003 Jul 2;95(13):1004-7.] in the long run._

Actually click here. It shows the clinical data i couldnt cut and paste: http://community.myprotein.com/advan...e-support.html

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## dec11

> *Now on to your "study"* : 
> First - its not a study its an article. 
> Second - the references for the article are a site that sells supplements , the "discoverer" or the supp that stands to directly financially benfit from its sale , and a "study"
> third - on to this study - it was done on 8 players..it was funded by Conte (yeah BALCO) - again the one that directly financially benfits from successful sales of the supp. Many people believe that the zma provided for the study was "tainted" - not a stretch considering Contes record of conduct is it?
> 
> Now here is a real , unbiased ZMA study , Read away :
> 
> _ZMA is totally ineffective, say German sports scientists in an article published in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. The researchers tested a couple of bottles of SNAC System’s ZMA from the bodybuilding.com webshop. SNAC is Victor Conte’s company, the genius behind the BALCO scheme and the inventor of ZMA.
> 
> ...


oh so you didnt check the bottom of the page which REFERENCES THE *ACSM*

give up idiot

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## jimmyinkedup

^^^ *LMAO* If you read my post you would have read this: 

ZMA has been tested a couple of times. In the first case ZMA came out tops, and the abstract of the study was distributed to much acclaim. That research was done by supplements manufacturer himself. The manufacturer first claimed that the study had been published in the prestigious Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, [www.bodyandfitness.com] but this was not the case. The research was published on the JEPonline website. [JEPonline, 3(4): 26-36, 2000.]

Im sorry ZMA is useless.....

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## dec11

jimmy, i couldnt give a flyin fvck wat you try to bend out of it or wat you think, it worked for me and plenty of my mates

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## jimmyinkedup

^^^ Look i didnt try to bend anything. I posted real valid clinical data to support my opinion...unlike you did or can. 
If u think it works for you ....fine.....keep taking it.... but dont come here and call people toolboxes then post BS information and call it credible studies to back up your opinion.
If its your opinion it works - fine. Its mine that it doesnt. It just so happens science backs my opinion not yours. People can decide for themselves. 
Its not personal...not sure why you felt the need to make it personal...but hey whatever.

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## dec11

> ^^^ Look i didnt try to bend anything. I posted real valid clinical data to support my opinion...unlike you did or can. 
> If u think it works for you ....fine.....keep taking it.... but dont come here and call people toolboxes then post BS information and call it credible studies to back up your opinion.
> If its your opinion it works - fine. Its mine that it doesnt. It just so happens science backs my opinion not yours. People can decide for themselves. 
> Its not personal...not sure why you felt the need to make it personal...but hey whatever.


nothing to do with personal, just fed up with ppl like you on here. ok then the ACSM is no longer credible in jimmy's point of view. according to him the ACSM isnt a scientific organisation, lmfao. get a brain, will ya?

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## dec11

> ^^^ Look i didnt try to bend anything. I posted real valid clinical data to support my opinion...unlike you did or can. 
> If u think it works for you ....fine.....keep taking it.... but dont come here and call people toolboxes then post BS information and call it credible studies to back up your opinion.
> If its your opinion it works - fine. Its mine that it doesnt. It just so happens science backs my opinion not yours. People can decide for themselves. 
> Its not personal...not sure why you felt the need to make it personal...but hey whatever.


double post

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## jimmyinkedup

> nothing to do with personal, just fed up with ppl like you on here. ok then the ACSM is no longer credible in jimmy's point of view. according to him the ACSM isnt a scientific organisation, lmfao. get a brain, will ya?


 
Ok now ill make it personal. You are definately not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you ?. 
Read this again...slowly and carefully. You will see it clearly states the study you quoted that claimed to be published in the ACSM Journal was never published there. That was a LIE.

Now so a 2 year old could undersatnd this...this is the refernce from the article you posted:
Brilla, L. Effects of zinc-magnesium (ZMA) supplementation on muscle attributes of football players. ACSM journal, Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Vol.31, No. 5, May 1999.

Now read my post einstein: 


_ZMA has been tested a couple of times. In the first case ZMA came out tops, and the abstract of the study was distributed to much acclaim. That research was done by supplements manufacturer himself. The manufacturer first claimed that the study had been published in the prestigious Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, [www.bodyandfitness.com] but this was not the case. The research was published on the JEPonline website. [JEPonline, 3(4): 26-36, 2000.]_

Can you figure it out now?
Ignorant Fool ..keep wasting your money.....

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## dec11

> Ok now ill make it personal. You are definately not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you ?. 
> Read this again...slowly and carefully. You will see it clearly states the study you quoted that claimed to be published in the ACSM Journal was never published there. That was a LIE.
> 
> Now so a 2 year old could undersatnd this...this is the refernce from the article you posted:
> Brilla, L. Effects of zinc-magnesium (ZMA) supplementation on muscle attributes of football players. ACSM journal, Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Vol.31, No. 5, May 1999.
> 
> Now read my post einstein: 
> 
> 
> ...


Scientific Evidences

There are several evidences which support ZMA capsules. According to recent studies, magnesium and zinc and deficient in most athletes and consuming ZMA capsules and zinc supplements can help increase their testosterone levels by as much as 30%. Lorrie Brilla, a researcher on sports performance at the Western Washington University also recently reported that the ZMA capsules increase the testosterone levels significantly and increase muscle strength. *The results of these studies had been published in the official ACSM journal.* The study which had been undertaken by Lorrie Brilla studied a group of NCAA football players. The players were given ZMA capsules during a training program for eight weeks. The players who took the supplement had 2.5 more muscle strength in comparison to those who had not. The post and pre leg strength measurements had been made and the group which took ZMA capsules had 11.6% more strength. The group which took ZMA capsules also reported 30% more total testosterone levels in comparison to the 10% decreases for the placebo group. This particular study shows that muscle strength and anabolic hormone increase can be aided by zinc supplements and ZMA capsules.



Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/suppleme...#ixzz1CYaXPNRN 
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution


read the bolds you stupid fvckin [email protected]

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## jimmyinkedup

> Scientific Evidences
> 
> There are several evidences which support ZMA capsules. According to recent studies, magnesium and zinc and deficient in most athletes and consuming ZMA capsules and zinc supplements can help increase their testosterone levels by as much as 30%. Lorrie Brilla, a researcher on sports performance at the Western Washington University also recently reported that the ZMA capsules increase the testosterone levels significantly and increase muscle strength. *The results of these studies had been published in the official ACSM journal.* The study which had been undertaken by Lorrie Brilla studied a group of NCAA football players. The players were given ZMA capsules during a training program for eight weeks. The players who took the supplement had 2.5 more muscle strength in comparison to those who had not. The post and pre leg strength measurements had been made and the group which took ZMA capsules had 11.6% more strength. The group which took ZMA capsules also reported 30% more total testosterone levels in comparison to the 10% decreases for the placebo group. This particular study shows that muscle strength and anabolic hormone increase can be aided by zinc supplements and ZMA capsules.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/suppleme...#ixzz1CYaXPNRN 
> Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
> 
> ...


Wow you really are that stupid that you just dont realize that that information , as pointed out , isnt true. It was a lie spread by the manufacturer to try to lend credibility to a BS product you fool. Later shown to be a lie...as i CLEARLY pointed out.
Newssflash - just because you find a lie in 2 seperate places it doesnt mean its true.
It was never published in the journal you idiot.

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## dec11

> Wow you really are that stupid that you just dont realize that that information , as pointed out , isnt true. It was a lie spread by the manufacturer to try to lend credibility to a BS product you fool. Later shown to be a lie...as i CLEARLY pointed out.
> Newssflash - just because you find a lie in 2 seperate places it doesnt mean its true.
> It was never published in the journal you idiot.


so every manufacturer of zma is in on it then? fvck off asshole

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## n00bs

> ^^^ Look i didnt try to bend anything. I posted real valid clinical data to support my opinion...unlike you did or can. 
> If u think it works for you ....fine.....keep taking it.... but dont come here and call people toolboxes then post BS information and call it credible studies to back up your opinion.
> If its your opinion it works - fine. Its mine that it doesnt. It just so happens science backs my opinion not yours. People can decide for themselves. 
> Its not personal...not sure why you felt the need to make it personal...but hey whatever.


Zinc is a mild aromatase inhibitor, many physicians use zinc to combat e2 levels.. Study or not this is what is done in real life we have the patients/clinical experience/ and pathology to back it up. 

Real life result > random dud paper

Also notice the paper does not state specifically what minerals and carriers are used. They could of used magnesium oxide ad inferior forms of zinc.. Also the dosage of zinc is too low for the desired effects. 

So using the wrong dosage and possibly wrong mineral carrier = bad results? Well obviously...

Next time you get a headache take quarter paracetamol tab and wonder why it doesn't work.

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## dec11

> Zinc is a mild aromatase inhibitorany physicians use zinc to combat e2 levels.. Study or not this is what is done in real life we have the patients/clinical experience/ and pathology to back it up. 
> 
> Real life result > random dud paper


amen. thank you

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## Ashop

ZMA is a great natural product. Ive used a TRIBULUS blend product too that worked but
was never released to the market. I seen through blood lab work that it did indeed raise
levels.

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## jimmyinkedup

> so every manufacturer of zma is in on it then? fvck off asshole


This was when the supp was first discovered. It was , at the time , the only source for this supplement....thus the only manufacturer. God you are ignorant.

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## dec11

> This was when the supp was first discovered. It was , at the time , the only source for this supplement....thus the only manufacturer. God you are ignorant.


and you're a back tracking twat but i cant help tht

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## jimmyinkedup

> Zinc is a mild aromatase inhibitor, many physicians use zinc to combat e2 levels.. Study or not this is what is done in real life we have the patients/clinical experience/ and pathology to back it up. 
> 
> Real life result > random dud paper
> 
> Also notice the paper does not state specifically what minerals and carriers are used. They could of used magnesium oxide ad inferior forms of zinc.. Also the dosage of zinc is too low for the desired effects. 
> 
> So using the wrong dosage and possibly wrong mineral carrier = bad results? Well obviously...
> 
> Next time you get a headache take quarter paracetamol tab and wonder why it doesn't work.


1- They tested the Exact product in question (read below). So obviously yourt points re:dosage and mineral carrier are moot:

*The researchers tested a couple of bottles of SNAC System’s ZMA from the bodybuilding.com webshop. SNAC is Victor Conte’s company, the genius behind the BALCO scheme and the inventor of ZMA.*


2- your zinc estrogen corrolation is an intersting one. It is also up for much debate. Many contend that high estrogen results in a zinc deficiency. Not vice versa.
Even those that believe zinc can slightly lower estrogen levels acknowledge that that is only the case in those with a zinc deficiency. Given the low % of individuals that this pertains too (except in type 2 diabetics)it is a weak argument for this supplement at best.

3- Even in the miniscule # of people that are zinc defficient..that are fitness people ..that take this supplement - there would be no notable benefit in muscle growth or strength whatsoever.

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## jimmyinkedup

> and you're a back tracking twat but i cant help tht


*L* its cool ..alot of people simply resort to calling names when they are proved wrong and stupid at the same time.....

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## n00bs

Define zinc deficiency?

Are you arguing for arguments sake? 

I find your comments amusing I love forum experts who troll pubmed and fail to live in the real world. 

End debate/ patients results tell otherwise. 

One should not tell someone who is doing something that it can't be done.

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## jimmyinkedup

^^^ I would think if you are treating patients you could correctly read a study before making silly statements re: dosage and mineral carrier. Especailly before using that criteria to dub it a dud paper/study.
I would also think you would realize the claims made by and about this supplement are ridiculous and its useless.
I would also tend to think zinc deficiency is self explanatory.
Do you love research chemists as well? Just curious?
You have posted NOTHING that indicates this is a useful supplement for our purposes.

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## n00bs

I'm on an iPhone I have a life besides arguing with experts on forums. I posted my say don't like it have a cry.

Back to the real world now..

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## stevey_6t9

The Role of Zinc in Growth and Cell Proliferation

The inhibition of growth is a cardinal symptom of zinc deficiency. In animals fed a zinc-inadequate diet, both food intake and growth are reduced within 4–5 d. Despite the concomitant reduction in food intake and growth, reduced energy intake is not the limiting factor in growth, because force-feeding a zinc-inadequate diet to animals fails to maintain growth. Hence, food intake and growth appear to be regulated by zinc through independent, although well coordinated, mechanisms. Despite the long-term study of zinc metabolism, the first limiting role of zinc in cell proliferation remains undefined. *Zinc participates in the regulation of cell proliferation in several ways; it is essential to enzyme systems that influence cell division and proliferation. Removing zinc from the extracellular milieu results in decreased activity of deoxythymidine kinase and reduced levels of adenosine(5')tetraphosphate(5')-adenosine. Hence, zinc may directly regulate DNA synthesis through these systems. Zinc also influences hormonal regulation of cell division. Specifically, the pituitary growth hormone (GH)–insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) axis is responsive to zinc status.* Both increased and decreased circulating concentrations of GH have been observed in zinc deficiency,* although circulating IGF-I concentrations are consistently decreased.* However, growth failure is not reversed by maintaining either GH or IGF-I levels through exogenous administration, which suggests the defect occurs in hormone signaling. Zinc appears to be essential for IGF-I induction of cell proliferation; the site of regulation is postreceptor binding. Overall, the evidence suggests that reduced zinc availability affects membrane signaling systems and intracellular second messengers that coordinate cell proliferation in response to IGF-I. 

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1500S.long

--------

personally it hink zma is great, im not real into the ol supplement shit, but i did notice deeper sleep and more energy throughout the day.

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## dec11

jimmy is the expert here guys, he simply cannot be wrong, dont you know that? beat by three of us and still persists, i wonder has he ever used zma?

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## stevey_6t9

> jimmy is the expert here guys, he simply cannot be wrong, dont you know that? beat by three of us and still persists, i wonder has he ever used zma?


doubt hes used it, gurus are too cool to use supplements they don't endorse.

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## jimmyinkedup

> The Role of Zinc in Growth and Cell Proliferation
> 
> The inhibition of growth is a cardinal symptom of zinc deficiency. In animals fed a zinc-inadequate diet, both food intake and growth are reduced within 4–5 d. Despite the concomitant reduction in food intake and growth, reduced energy intake is not the limiting factor in growth, because force-feeding a zinc-inadequate diet to animals fails to maintain growth. Hence, food intake and growth appear to be regulated by zinc through independent, although well coordinated, mechanisms. Despite the long-term study of zinc metabolism, the first limiting role of zinc in cell proliferation remains undefined. *Zinc participates in the regulation of cell proliferation in several ways; it is essential to enzyme systems that influence cell division and proliferation. Removing zinc from the extracellular milieu results in decreased activity of deoxythymidine kinase and reduced levels of adenosine(5')tetraphosphate(5')-adenosine. Hence, zinc may directly regulate DNA synthesis through these systems. Zinc also influences hormonal regulation of cell division. Specifically, the pituitary growth hormone (GH)–insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) axis is responsive to zinc status.* Both increased and decreased circulating concentrations of GH have been observed in zinc deficiency,* although circulating IGF-I concentrations are consistently decreased.* However, growth failure is not reversed by maintaining either GH or IGF-I levels through exogenous administration, which suggests the defect occurs in hormone signaling. Zinc appears to be essential for IGF-I induction of cell proliferation; the site of regulation is postreceptor binding. Overall, the evidence suggests that reduced zinc availability affects membrane signaling systems and intracellular second messengers that coordinate cell proliferation in response to IGF-I. 
> 
> http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1500S.long
> 
> --------
> 
> personally it hink zma is great, im not real into the ol supplement shit, but i did notice deeper sleep and more energy throughout the day.


This refers to animals with a zinc defficiency. Not healthy humans. I tried zma yeras ago...it didnt do shit. Havent touched it since. After educating myself..its obvious why it didnt do shit...its uselss. Its this kind of ignorance posted by "forum and bro science experts" that keeps people buying useless crap like this. Excerpts of studies on animals with zinc defficiencies , a post that says its a mild AI - when it has never been proven that. Elduding to those with zinc deficiencies and try to make it appear it has benfits to healty males.
Dont kid yourself. I posted a valid study , on the exact supplement , on the perfect demographic ...that concludes it useless. 
DO i get adamant about posting when i see people asking about a useless hyped up supplement that has been proven not to work and then someone calls others "toolboxes" for saying it uselss and his best defense for something is name calling. Or the biggest justification is a not even mainstream accepted practice in the medical field on people WITH a medical condition, not healthy males (btw this is sketchy at best - check it out). Then we get to the zinc defficient animals post ...do i have to go on ? Yes i get animated.
Id just say use your head..you have 98% of people tell you in their experince its useless. A direct demographic credible study ...saying its uselss. Do what you think is wise. 
If you beleive its doing something useful for you ..keep taking it. If you think it works - go right ahead and take it. Marketing hype and placebo effect sure are powerful.

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## dec11

> This refers to animals with a zinc defficiency. Not healthy humans. I tried zma yeras ago...it didnt do shit. Havent touched it since. After educating myself..its obvious why it didnt do shit...its uselss. Its this kind of ignorance posted by "forum and bro science experts" that keeps people buying useless crap like this. Excerpts of studies on animals with zinc defficiencies , a post that says its a mild AI - when it has never been proven that. Elduding to those with zinc deficiencies and try to make it appear it has benfits to healty males.
> Dont kid yourself. I posted a valid study , on the exact supplement , on the perfect demographic ...that concludes it useless. 
> DO i get adamant about posting when i see people asking about a useless hyped up supplement that has been proven not to work and then someone calls others "toolboxes" for saying it uselss and his best defense for something is name calling. Or the biggest justification is a not even mainstream accepted practice in the medical field on people WITH a medical condition, not healthy males (btw this is sketchy at best - check it out). Then we get to the zinc defficient animals post ...do i have to go on ? Yes i get animated.
> Id just say use your head..you have 98% of people tell you in their experince its useless. A direct demographic credible study ...saying its uselss. Do what you think is wise. 
> If you beleive its doing something useful for you ..keep taking it. If you think it works - go right ahead and take it. *Marketing hype and placebo effect sure are powerful*.


absolutely nothing to do with it, i dont read any of that sh1te or any of those stupid bb'ing mags.when i used supps i always used one trusted brand of supplements (who have no stupid BS glossy adds anywhere) in the UK and tried zma blind without reading any crap on it, and it worked perfectly for me and my training mates.

have you actually even used it?

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## bigslick7878

> absolutely nothing to do with it, i dont read any of that sh1te or any of those stupid bb'ing mags.when i used supps i always used one trusted brand of supplements (who have no stupid BS glossy adds anywhere) in the UK and tried zma blind without reading any crap on it, and it worked perfectly for me and my training mates.
> 
> have you actually even used it?



So what were your test levels before you took ZMA and after?

You obviously had them tested and the increases was substantial correct?

I mean you know everything about it and I am sure you have some concrete evidence to back up your claims right?

Of course you don't.

Marketing hype and the placebo effect are powerful is right, couldn't have said it any better.

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## MACHINE5150

I have never seen so many people argue about such a stupid thing as ZMA??? It costs maybe 20 bucks for a months supply.. and it definitley hekps you sleep better which would in turn make you recover faster.. is that not worth less than a dollar a day?? who gives a $hit about the rest of the claims the sleep alone is worth it.

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## n00bs

Remember how studies used to show steroids had no effect on athletic performance? 

Back to your books..

As I previously stated to tell someone doing something that it can't be done makes you look like a twat.

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## dec11

> So what were your test levels before you took ZMA and after?
> 
> You obviously had them tested and the increases was substantial correct?
> 
> I mean you know everything about it and I am sure you have some concrete evidence to back up your claims right?
> 
> Of course you don't.
> 
> Marketing hype and the placebo effect are powerful is right, couldn't have said it any better.


what are you on about, seriously???
as if im going to go get lab work done after taking a £20 supplement, grow a brain.
i never said a thing about test levels, i said i felt alot stronger on it and slept better, so therefore it did something for me.
and who the hell are you to tell me that something didnt work on me when i know it did, as noobs pointed out, it just makes you look stupid

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## dec11

> So what were your test levels before you took ZMA and after?
> 
> You obviously had them tested and the increases was substantial correct?
> 
> I mean you know everything about it and I am sure you have some concrete evidence to back up your claims right?
> 
> Of course you don't.
> 
> *Marketing hype and the placebo effect are powerful is right,* couldn't have said it any better.


maybe for you, im not stupid enough and have enough exp not to believe it

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## jimmyinkedup

Look ..this thread is a little ridicuolus. I accept the part i played in that. Im sorry i lowered myself to calling names to reenforce somethinmg that in my mind i proved. The guy asked about a test booster - not - a sleeping pill. By all accounts....credible studies , facts , 99% of people that tried it, etc...zma is useless for this. If you think it does this for you...fine take it.
As far as a sleeping pill again...not concrete studies support this either. Speculation based on magnesium defficiency. Now again ..if u think it works for you...and it does..then fine keep taking it. I just think if someone is looking to try a new supp ...based on what the OP asked for this is prob one of the most useless (along with trib) you could endorse. Thats just my OPINION. 
Everyone has one..to them its the truth. I got pissed cause someone started calling people toolboxes , etc because they didnt agree with his opinion. Also its frustrating when someone keeps refering to something to prove a point for three posts after you showed them that in fact they were wrong (the journal publication). 
Eh whatever.....
U wanna try it ....try it ..i still say it sucks. Didnt do shit for me.....

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## dec11

> Look ..this thread is a little ridicuolus. I accept the part i played in that. Im sorry i lowered myself to calling names to reenforce somethinmg that in my mind i proved. The guy asked about a test booster - not - a sleeping pill. By all accounts....credible studies , facts , 99% of people that tried it, etc...zma is useless for this. If you think it does this for you...fine take it.
> As far as a sleeping pill again...not concrete studies support this either. Speculation based on magnesium defficiency. Now again ..if u think it works for you...and it does..then fine keep taking it. I just think if someone is looking to try a new supp ...based on what the OP asked for this is prob one of the most useless (along with trib) you could endorse. Thats just my OPINION. 
> Everyone has one..to them its the truth. *I got pissed cause someone started calling people toolboxes , etc because they didnt agree with his opinion*. Also its frustrating when someone keeps refering to something to prove a point for three posts after you showed them that in fact they were wrong (the journal publication). 
> Eh whatever.....
> U wanna try it ....try it ..i still say it sucks. Didnt do shit for me.....


and i got pissed at the condesending remarks made to me, and the fact i was called stupid. those guys have nothing to do with you so why come storming on to back them up? ive been using supps and lifting weights for almost 20yrs, and have worked in the fitness industry, im not a bullshitter.

i will repeat tht i never would recommend something tht didnt work for me. i also have unbiased nutritional and supp books with studies in them tht prove zma to be one of the common supps tht actually does anything (_supplements for strength-power athletes by jose antonio and jeffery r stout_. all proper studies and not affiliated to any companies). now tht particular book states tht under study ZMA DID raise test levels.

tht journal you called me stupid over has been referred to by many sources just not tht supp company. 
man do not judge my intelligence like tht, if you knew me you'd know im far from stupid.

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## jimmyinkedup

> and i got pissed at the condesending remarks made to me, and the fact i was called stupid. those guys have nothing to do with you so why come storming on to back them up? ive been using supps and lifting weights for almost 20yrs, and have worked in the fitness industry, im not a bullshitter.
> 
> i will repeat tht i never would recommend something tht didnt work for me. i also have unbiased nutritional and supp books with studies in them tht prove zma to be one of the common supps tht actually does anything (_supplements for strength-power athletes by jose antonio and jeffery r stout_. all proper studies and not affiliated to any companies). now tht particular book states tht under study ZMA DID raise test levels.
> 
> tht journal you called me stupid over has been referred to by many sources just not tht supp company. 
> man do not judge my intelligence like tht, if you knew me you'd know im far from stupid.


I rest my case. .....Best of luck to you.

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## dec11

> I rest my case. .....Best of luck to you.


yep, love you too

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## MACHINE5150

ahhh... so nice to see you guys hug and make up.. so since we hijacked this thread.. is there anything that you WOULD recomend to raise natural test levels??? ZMA out of the question.. any other herbs or gimmics or anything that you have read DOES work???

there must be something.. if test levels can be affected so easily through out the day as well as being so negatively affected by alcohol.. there must be something that has a positive affect on it..

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## Swifto

_Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism


Colin D Wilborn,1 Chad M Kerksick,1 Bill I Campbell,1 Lem W Taylor,1 Brandon M Marcello,1 Christopher J Rasmussen,1 Mike C Greenwood,1 Anthony Almada,2 and Richard B Kreider1

1Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Baylor University, Waco, TX
2IMAGINutrition, Laguna Nigel, CA
Corresponding author.
Richard B Kreider: [email protected]
Received December 18, 2004; Accepted December 28, 2004.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Other Sections▼
Abstract
This study examined whether supplementing the diet with a commercial supplement containing zinc magnesium aspartate (ZMA) during training affects zinc and magnesium status, anabolic and catabolic hormone profiles, and/or training adaptations. Forty-two resistance trained males (27 ± 9 yrs; 178 ± 8 cm, 85 ± 15 kg, 18.6 ± 6% body fat) were matched according to fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingest in a double blind manner either a dextrose placebo (P) or ZMA 30–60 minutes prior to going to sleep during 8-weeks of standardized resistance-training. Subjects completed testing sessions at 0, 4, and 8 weeks that included body composition assessment as determined by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry, 1-RM and muscular endurance tests on the bench and leg press, a Wingate anaerobic power test, and blood analysis to assess anabolic/catabolic status as well as markers of health. Data were analyzed using repeated measures ANOVA. Results indicated that ZMA supplementation non-significantly increased serum zinc levels by 11 – 17% (p = 0.12). However, no significant differences were observed between groups in anabolic or catabolic hormone status, body composition, 1-RM bench press and leg press, upper or lower body muscular endurance, or cycling anaerobic capacity. Results indicate that ZMA supplementation during training does not appear to enhance training adaptations in resistance trained populations.

Full paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129161/





Eur J Clin Nutr. 2009 Jan;63(1):65-70. Epub 2007 Sep 19.

Serum testosterone and urinary excretion of steroid hormone metabolites after administration of a high-dose zinc supplement.

Koehler K, Parr MK, Geyer H, Mester J, Schänzer W.

Institute of Biochemistry, German Research Centre of Elite Sport, German Sport University Cologne, Cologne, Germany. [email protected]
Abstract
OBJECTIVES: To investigate whether the administration of the zinc-containing nutritional supplement ZMA causes an increase of serum testosterone levels , which is an often claimed effect in advertising for such products; to monitor the urinary excretion of testosterone and selected steroid hormone metabolites to detect potential changes in the excretion patterns of ZMA users.

SUBJECTS: Fourteen healthy, regularly exercising men aged 22-33 years with a baseline zinc intake between 11.9 and 23.2 mg day(-1) prior to the study.

RESULTS: Supplementation of ZMA significantly increased serum zinc (P=0.031) and urinary zinc excretion (P=0.035). Urinary pH (P=0.011) and urine flow (P=0.045) were also elevated in the subjects using ZMA. No significant changes in serum total and serum free testosterone were observed in response to ZMA use. Also, the urinary excretion pattern of testosterone metabolites was not significantly altered in ZMA users.

CONCLUSIONS: The present data suggest that the use of ZMA has no significant effects regarding serum testosterone levels and the metabolism of testosterone in subjects who consume a zinc-sufficient diet.

PMID: 17882141 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]_




If there is any more flaming in this thread, I'll have them banned. I am fed up with dealing with flamer's today.

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## dec11

> ahhh... so nice to see you guys hug and make up.. so since we hijacked this thread.. is there anything that you WOULD recomend to raise natural test levels??? ZMA out of the question.. any other herbs or gimmics or anything that you have read DOES work???
> 
> there must be something.. if test levels can be affected so easily through out the day as well as being so negatively affected by alcohol.. there must be something that has a positive affect on it..


man ive had a bad week on here, but not getting involved in anymore shoot outs!!
unfortunatley there isnt anything natural to have an effect, cartainly nothing ive heard of anyway

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## dec11

> _Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism
> 
> 
> Colin D Wilborn,1 Chad M Kerksick,1 Bill I Campbell,1 Lem W Taylor,1 Brandon M Marcello,1 Christopher J Rasmussen,1 Mike C Greenwood,1 Anthony Almada,2 and Richard B Kreider1
> 
> 1Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Baylor University, Waco, TX
> 2IMAGINutrition, Laguna Nigel, CA
> Corresponding author.
> Richard B Kreider: [email protected]
> ...


ive seen this study also, but what about the study associated with jose antonio? if you google his name with ZMA it will bring up talk of this study and his findings, surely there has to be some clout with it?

http://books.google.ie/books?id=cfDm...page&q&f=false

this particular article talks of 2 studies contradicting each other. so where does tht leave us in terms of studies? i can honestly say it had given results when i used supps

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## Van Suka

I'm dizzy

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## l2elapse

save the money

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## Guerilla

What do you guys think of ZMA?


Haha jk

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