# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Hamas is at it again

## *RAGE*

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...n8w&refer=home

Stop firing rockets and there might be a end to this....

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## Matt

There will never be an end, israel still has thier land, and the boarders are still locked down.. The people in Gaza are dieing, they might aswell fight..

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## BuffedGuy

A few relevant points from the same article you quoted.

First point:

Israel’s operation in Gaza, which left *more than 1,300 Palestinians* and 13 Israelis [soldiers]dead 

source: same article you linked to
Of those, 50% were confirmed women and children:
Those 1,000-plus dead Gazans are broken down into percentages defined in terms of women and children and the rest. The earliest figures stated that about 25 per cent of Gaza's dead were women and children , and that has steadily climbed close to the 50 per cent mark since Israel's ground invasion got under way.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=5&gl=usAnd here is a number to put that into perspective:

Israeli assault injures *1.5 million* Gazans

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=5&gl=us
One point five MILLION!

Second point:

Israel’s operation in Gaza...was said by the military to be aimed at stopping Hamas from firing rockets into Israeli territory. More than 30 rockets and mortar shells have been fired since Israel declared the [unilateral] cease-fire.

source: from the same article you linked to
Remember: all of you had justified the massive murder of Gazan civilians by saying that it was a-ok because it was the only way to stop rockets being fired at Israel. And was it not all of us who told you that no matter how massive Israel's response was, it could not stop the rocket attacks? Rather, the only way to stop the rocket attacks was through negotiating a peace treaty or mutual ceasefire? Do we not now see how the only few months in which no rockets were fired were when the two sides had agreed to a ceasefire, which Israel then broke? 

If the rockets started up again so quickly, what was the point of murdering 1,000+ Palestinians?

Third point:

The rockets were fired by other than Hamas to begin with:
Responsibility for today’s attack on Ashkelon was claimed by a Gaza militant group affiliated with the Lebanese Shiite Muslim Hezbollah, which fought a monthlong war with Israel in 2006.

source: from the same article you linked to
Fourth point:

Those who fired the rocket gave the exact same reason for firing them as Israel gives for devastating Gaza:
“In a continuation of *revenge for our people’s blood*, members of our rockets unit today fired two rockets,” the group, the Brigades of Hezbollah in Palestine, said in a leaflet faxed to journalists. 

source: from the same article you linked to
So Israel says it is retaliating for rocket attacks, and the militants say the exact same thing.

Fifth point:

The ceasefire was "unilateral", meaning Hamas was given no input on the matter. It is like me jumping you from behind, beating you up, raping you, and then just when you are about to retaliate, I say "ceasefire!" Having said that, Hamas did agree to a one-week ceasefire, which brings me to my sixth point.

Sixth point:

Gaza is blockaded on all sides, a tactic used since ancient times to starve out a people to death. This is the crux of the matter, and anyone who cannot see that is blind:
Hamas is conditioning its agreement [to a permanent ceasefire] on Israel opening border crossings into Gaza.

source: from the same article you linked to
And from another article:
One aspect of the blockade that seems to have been overlooked is the way it has been used to soften up Gaza...For three years Gaza's population has been denied food, medicines and fuel.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=5&gl=us
According to the United Nations, Palestinians are dying because of this blockade. According to everyone, no Israelis have died since the rocket attacks on Israel have resumed. So why is it that you are only focusing on the rocket attacks which kill nobody and not the starving out a people to death which *is* killing people? One point five MILLION Palestinians have been injured by Israel, and you are worrying about a few rockets that land on the side of the road?

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## *RAGE*

> A few relevant points from the same article you quoted.
> *did not quote the article just made a statement that Hamas is firing rocket and more will die until Hamas stops firing at Isreal*
> First point:
> 
> Israel’s operation in Gaza, which left *more than 1,300 Palestinians* and 13 Israelis [soldiers]dead *we have talked about this before.....you can say isreal is targing women and childern but I could say that Hamas is hiding behind the women and children....*
> *Yes that is a high number but why buff why? you know why because* 
> 
> source: same article you linked to
> Of those, 50% were confirmed women and children:
> ...


*because if hamas did not start this with rockets then the 1.5 million you have stated over and over would not be getting hurt.....*

in bold..........

buff 90% of your thread are about palestinians so what if i write about israel both side of the story is always a good thing..dont you think??????/

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## Matt

You can live without food for sometime, i think depending on the person, upto 6/7 weeks maybe longer...

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## *RAGE*

> You can live without food for sometime, i think depending on the person, upto 6/7 weeks maybe longer...


this is true mad and I ment to put seven weeks. thanks for the typoooooos

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## Matt

I would live longer lol because i would eat my toe nails, snot and hair..

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## Panzerfaust

I wonder if Hamas will ever get to preach to the world about their Concentration Camp that they live in, and people starving? Or do the Jews have the Holocaust market cornered?  :LOL:

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## amcon

> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...n8w&refer=home
> 
> Stop firing rockets and there might be a end to this....


Israels air force attacked targets in the Gaza Strip, saying it was responding to Qassam rockets, mortar shells and Grad missiles fired at the country in recent days. *these rockets and missiles sound kind of expensive, im sure they cost more than a few hundred dollars... point is if humus (another bad dont mess with Zohan joke) chose to keep that money and not fire it back at israel they would have more money to feed the people the govern.*

It appears that Hamas is out to deliberately undermine any chance for quiet, said Mark Regev, spokesman for Olmert. In allowing the launching of deadly rockets at Israeli cities, Hamas alone holds responsibility for any possible escalation. *hamas is going to get pounded a gain just imo, i didnt say they should but israel is going to make an example of them... and prob have the worlds permission- because simply hamas wont stop the attacks*

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## amcon

> I wonder if Hamas will ever get to preach to the world about their Concentration Camp that they live in, and people starving? Or do the Jews have the Holocaust market cornered?


my guess is that if they can smuggle in missles, rockets and stuff they can def smuggle out the info about concentration camps and people starving ....

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## amcon

> I would live longer lol because i would eat my toe nails, snot and hair..


lol... your so disgusting - bugs to?

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## Flagg

I love how people somehow try to justify what happened in Gaza in those three weeks was perfectly fine.

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## BuffedGuy

> I love how people somehow try to justify what happened in Gaza in those three weeks was perfectly fine.


There is nothing we can say that will change their minds. _Whatever_ Israel does is justified somehow.

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## *RAGE*

> There is nothing we can say that will change their minds. _Whatever_ Israel does is justified somehow.


that is not what I am saying......DO i think israel is justified in defieding its self yes. Is it sad that innocent people die..yes....buff if it does not go your way you dont want to talk about it..hamas fired rockets....trying to kill israels did they guess not but were they trying....yes.....you are one sided....

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## NightWolf

Oh brother.. so now the Palis have the "right"
to fire rockets also.

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## Flagg

> that is not what I am saying......DO i think israel is justified in defieding its self yes. Is it sad that innocent people die..yes....buff if it does not go your way you dont want to talk about it..hamas fired rockets....trying to kill israels did they guess not but were they trying....yes.....you are one sided....



Of course Israel has the right to defend itself. It does not have the right to shoot through women and children to get to it's target. People can argue that Hamas deliberately hid in places they considered safe, but Israel still pulled the trigger. 1400 dead innocent people to get to a handful of Hamas, surely you cannot think that is acceptable?

What im trying to say mate, is how would you feel if you saw the police shooting through customers and staff to get to armed bank robbers?

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## BuffedGuy

> Of course Israel has the right to defend itself. It does not have the right to shoot through women and children to get to it's target. People can argue that Hamas deliberately hid in places they considered safe, but Israel still pulled the trigger. 1400 dead innocent people to get to a handful of Hamas, surely you cannot think that is acceptable?
> 
> What im trying to say mate, is how would you feel if you saw the police shooting through customers and staff to get to armed bank robbers?


Hamas has said LITERALLY "We do not target civilians; rather, we fire rockets at Israel, and since they are not smart missiles they just land wherever." Do I agree with this justification? No. But do I see that it is the same thing Israel claims when it devastates civilian areas? Yes. So does Hamas get away with what it does by chanting "Palestine has the right to defend itself" ? If not, then why does Isreal get away with this mantra? B-i-g-o-t-r-y. Jews can do no harm, and Muslims are devil worshipers.

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## *RAGE*

> Of course Israel has the right to defend itself. It does not have the right to shoot through women and children to get to it's target. *Do you think that they are targeting women and children??????????please* People can argue that Hamas deliberately hid in places they considered safe, but Israel still pulled the trigger. 1400 dead innocent people to get to a handful of Hamas, surely you cannot think that is acceptable?*NO i do not....that is a tragedy*
> 
> What im trying to say mate, is how would you feel if you saw the police shooting through customers and staff to get to armed bank robbers?


*I dont believe this is the case I think that is how it is being put out in the new....I can not say for sure because I am not there but I have a lot of experience in this kind of work and not one targets women and children...so I think it is on which new case do you believe...*

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## BuffedGuy

> that is not what I am saying......DO i think israel is justified in defieding its self yes. Is it sad that innocent people die..yes....buff if it does not go your way you dont want to talk about it..hamas fired rockets....trying to kill israels did they guess not but were they trying....yes.....you are one sided....


See what I posted above. You are beyond reason.

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## *RAGE*

> Hamas has said LITERALLY "We do not target civilians; rather, we fire rockets at Israel, and since they are not smart missiles they just land wherever." *by this you cant say you are not targeting women and children because you dont know where they are going to fall.....your statement makes no sense*Do I agree with this justification? No. *good.*But do I see that it is the same thing Israel claims when it devastates civilian areas? Yes.*so you can say forsure that hamas is not hiding there?*


Hey buff i like these short post unlike the books that you normally write and i dont mean this is a bad toward you at all.......

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## Flagg

> *I dont believe this is the case I think that is how it is being put out in the new....I can not say for sure because I am not there but I have a lot of experience in this kind of work and not one targets women and children...so I think it is on which new case do you believe...*



They targeted schools and hospitals. You KNOW they targeted these areas and they didn't give a damn who died to get to their intended target. I can produce sources if you would like, SHOWING what was hit, and how many people were killed if you like? If it wasn't for a UN building being hit, who knows how much longer they would have go on for. 

The sad part of this is, Hamas is not going to stop. And what is going to happen, is soon Gaza will cease to exist.

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## Flagg

Prehaps Buffed is one sided on the basis of his Faith. 

I am not religious, I am a scientist first. But I agree with Buff. Hamas needs to go, that much is simple...but why cant you see that the Israeli attack was exactly the same as Hamas only on a much bigger scale? I have a friend that is Palestinian, and she is currently in the UAE, and I think it's terrible that one day her home could cease to exist. Why can't you see that Israel are doing to the Palestinians what Germany was doing to Jewish people 60 years ago?

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## *RAGE*

> They targeted schools and hospitals. You KNOW they targeted these areas and they didn't give a damn who died to get to their intended target. *it would look that way....but since i am not there i cant say that is true* I can produce sources if you would like, SHOWING what was hit, and how many people were killed if you like? If it wasn't for a UN building being hit, who knows how much longer they would have go on for. *you can bring him on here or have him pm me i would love to talk to him..*
> 
> The sad part of this is, Hamas is not going to stop. And what is going to happen, is soon Gaza will cease to exist.


* this is a very true statement....and for this I am sad...now you might not want to believe this but i dont have a problem with anyone but hamas*

I feel that hamas is to blame in this now I am not say that israel is not to blame for some of the way they handled this...I am not a supporter of israel like this thread sounds....I have other issues that would talk to you on pm or some other way

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## *RAGE*

> Prehaps Buffed is one sided on the basis of his Faith. 
> *I believe that he is but I think that is a good thing to a point..*
> I am not religious, I am a scientist first. But I agree with Buff. Hamas needs to go, that much is simple..*then we are talking about the samething*.but why cant you see that the Israeli attack was exactly the same as Hamas only on a much bigger scale? I have a friend that is Palestinian, and she is currently in the UAE, and I think it's terrible that one day her home could cease to exist. Why can't you see that Israel are doing to the Palestinians what Germany was doing to Jewish people 60 years ago?


*i dont think it is to that extent yet.. not saying that it will not go that fare but i sure hope it dont....*

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## *RAGE*

> Oh brother.. so now the Palis have the "right"
> to fire rockets also.


not sure what you are saying, (palis Hamas) have been firing rocket and using suicide boombers for years now....

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## BuffedGuy

> Prehaps Buffed is one sided on the basis of his Faith. 
> 
> I am not religious, I am a scientist first. But I agree with Buff. Hamas needs to go, that much is simple...but why cant you see that the Israeli attack was exactly the same as Hamas only on a much bigger scale? I have a friend that is Palestinian, and she is currently in the UAE, and I think it's terrible that one day her home could cease to exist. Why can't you see that Israel are doing to the Palestinians what Germany was doing to Jewish people 60 years ago?


Thanks, *Flagg*. I appreciate your posts.

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## *RAGE*

> Thanks, *Flagg*. I appreciate your posts.


buff do you think Israel would stop if hamas stopped or do you think they will continue to fight?

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## Flagg

> Thanks, *Flagg*. I appreciate your posts.


No problem Buffed. You remind me a little of another member on this board who was very religious, but he passed away some time ago. Even though he strongly valued his faith, he was very polite and very wise.

Prone, at least we can all agree that Hamas needs to go. I just dont think bombing Gaza flat is the answer. We are supposed to be living in civilised times, what the Hell happened to diplomatic relations? We can all argue till we're blue in the face "who attacked who first", that argument is not valid any longer. What does matter is that there has to be a peaceful resolution and there have to be concesions made on BOTH SIDES. Yes, I know the world is a harsh place but we can't go on like this forever.

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## *RAGE*

> No problem Buffed. You remind me a little of another member on this board who was very religious, but he passed away some time ago. Even though he strongly valued his faith, he was very polite and very wise.
> 
> Prone, at least we can all agree that Hamas needs to go.*yes thank you* I just dont think bombing Gaza flat is the answer. We are supposed to be living in civilised times, what the Hell happened to diplomatic relations? We can all argue till we're blue in the face "who attacked who first", that argument is not valid any longer. What does matter is that there has to be a peaceful resolution and there have to be concesions made on BOTH SIDES. Yes, I know the world is a harsh place but we can't go on like this forever.


good enough..

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## BuffedGuy

> buff do you think Israel would stop if hamas stopped or do you think they will continue to fight?


You keep presupposing that Israel is *only* attacking as a retaliation. I disagree with your belief in the first place (since unlike you, I see that both sides argue that they are "retaliating")...almost no aggressor on earth has proudly said that they are guilty of aggression; rather, they almost always hide under the feeble excuse of "defense." Even when Adolf Hitler invaded various lands, he said that this was in defense, and he justified it. 

So to answer your question: of course I believe that Israel will continue to attack Palestinians regardless of what Palestinians do or do not do. This is the logical conclusion one can draw just by looking at the historical record. But of course, when you always say that one side is 'retaliating' whenever it attacks, and the other side is always guilty of aggression whenever it attacks, then I do not think you can ever reach a just conclusion on the matter. 

As a strong proof, I say what I've repeated a hundred times on this forum: Hamas fired zero rockets during the ceasefire months, and Israel still bombed them. So yeah, I--like the Palestinian people themselves--have realized that there is no way to prevent the Israeli aggression. To always put the blame on the Palestinians (i.e. "YOU brought this upon YOURSELVES") is like when people blame the rape victim instead of laying the blame at the feet of the rapist. The Palestinians have understood what the Native Americans took a long time to understand as well: they can do nothing to prevent the colonial power from devouring their land and depriving them of their rights. No matter what the Palestinians do, the Israelis will generate an excuse to attack.

To conclude: the answer to your question is beyond obvious.

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## BuffedGuy

> No problem Buffed. You remind me a little of another member on this board who was very religious, but he passed away some time ago.


_Innah lillahi wah innah ilayhi rajioon_. From God we come, and to Him is our return.

That is sad to hear that he passed away. Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated.

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## NightWolf

> not sure what you are saying, (palis Hamas) have been firing rocket and using suicide boombers for years now....


I meant that they started firing rockets now again
and some members here are justifying that.

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## Matt

> I meant that they started firing rockets now again
> and some members here are justifying that.


And why not, israel are treating it as a giant jail, treat me in this way and i will fire rockets at you..

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## Nooomoto

> No problem Buffed. You remind me a little of another member on this board who was very religious, but he passed away some time ago. Even though he strongly valued his faith, he was very polite and very wise.
> 
> Prone, at least we can all agree that Hamas needs to go. I just dont think bombing Gaza flat is the answer. We are supposed to be living in civilised times, what the Hell happened to diplomatic relations? We can all argue till we're blue in the face "who attacked who first", that argument is not valid any longer. What does matter is that there has to be a peaceful resolution and there have to be concesions made on BOTH SIDES. Yes, I know the world is a harsh place but we can't go on like this forever.


You can't ask two opposing warrior cultures to lay down their weapons and "talk it out", Hamas is clearly not interested in talking about anything of any merit. Israel is clearly not interested in allowing Hamas to exist so close to home. Neither will stop until the other is dead.

Israel only exists today because they told the world to **** off and did what they had to do in their early years to survive.

Not everyone is meant to live...some people have to die violently. The strong survive, and the meak perish. It's the way it always has been and always will be.

You can't save everyone.

I say let them fight it out, and party with the winner.  :7up:

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## BuffedGuy

> I meant that they started firing rockets now again
> and some members here are justifying that.


I'm not justifying the firing of rockets. Rather, I simply say that the justifications you and others use for Israel firing missiles into Gaza are the same that Hamas uses. 

Having said that, the article says that it was other than Hamas who fired them.

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## BuffedGuy

> You can't ask two opposing warrior cultures to lay down their weapons and "talk it out", *Hamas is clearly not interested in talking about anything of any merit.* Israel is clearly not interested in allowing Hamas to exist so close to home. Neither will stop until the other is dead.


The underlined part is complete baloney. It is Israel that refuses to talk, whereas Hamas has continually said they are willing to negotiate and compromise even back to the 1967 borders. If Israel is not even willing to concede to this, then it is quite clear which side is "not being a partner for peace." As for your claim that "Israel is not interested in Hamas existing so close to home", that is just white-washing what the reality is: Israelis believe that God gave them the land of Eretz Israel and they will annihilate anyone who gets in their way of that religious right. They want the land, simple as that.

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## Matt

> You can't ask two opposing warrior cultures to lay down their weapons and "talk it out", Hamas is clearly not interested in talking about anything of any merit. Israel is clearly not interested in allowing Hamas to exist so close to home. Neither will stop until the other is dead.
> 
> Israel only exists today because they told the world to **** off and did what they had to do in their early years to survive.
> 
> Not everyone is meant to live...some people have to die violently. The strong survive, and the meak perish. It's the way it always has been and always will be.
> 
> You can't save everyone.
> 
> I say let them fight it out, and party with the winner.


Some people dont know shit...

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## Nooomoto

> The underlined part is complete baloney. It is Israel that refuses to talk, whereas Hamas has continually said they are willing to negotiate and compromise even back to the 1967 borders. If Israel is not even willing to concede to this, then it is quite clear which side is "not being a partner for peace." As for your claim that "Israel is not interested in Hamas existing so close to home", that is just white-washing what the reality is: Israelis believe that God gave them the land of Eretz Israel and they will annihilate anyone who gets in their way of that religious right. They want the land, simple as that.


Israel wants the land, Hamas wants the land...simple as that. Let them fight it out and the winner gets it.

Someone will lose, eventually.

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## BuffedGuy

> Israel wants the land, Hamas wants the land...simple as that. Let them fight it out and the winner gets it.


Yes, the difference is that the land belongs to Palestine, not Israel. It's part of the half of the land which the United Nations mandate bequeathed to Palestinians. So your argument is as illogical as saying "USA wants New York, Russia wants New York, so let them fight over it and winner gets it."




> Someone will lose, eventually.


Hitler wanted Poland. Poland wanted Poland. Someone will lose, eventually. 

No Jew on earth would accept the "might is right" argument when it came to Hitler's Nazi Germany. No French person would accept it when it came to Paris. Yet suddenly we're supposed to accept it when it comes to our land? Absurd.

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## Nooomoto

My point being that if they were allowed to fight it out, the loser will have no choice but to accept it...because the loser will be dead.

That to me seems better than bitching about everything. It's simple.

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## amcon

> Oh brother.. so now the Palis have the "right"
> to fire rockets also.



so i will just change one word and the other side of the coin is easily seen....

[/QUOTE]There is nothing we can say that will change their minds. Whatever Israel does is justified somehow. [/QUOTE]

there is nothing we can say that will change their minds. whatever PALESTINE does is justified somehow.

every story has a flip side... we see it with hamas firing rockets and expensive missles in to israel during a peace fire after loosing 1300 people...

man where is the wisdom in that????

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## BuffedGuy

> My point being that if they were allowed to fight it out, the loser will have no choice but to accept it...because the loser will be dead.
> 
> That to me seems better than bitching about everything. It's simple.


When Jews remind us of the Holocaust, do you say that this is "b***ing"? 

In any case, the Palestinian people are not just "b***ing"; they are ready to fight for their freedom to the death, Braveheart style. I just think this "might is right" philosophy died hundreds of years ago, along with other arcane ideas such as the divine right of kings, white man's burden, little brown brothers, perpetual warfare, manifest destiny, etc.

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## Panzerfaust

> Oh brother.. so now the Palis have the "right"
> to fire rockets also.


They certainly don't have anything better to do than starve, i'm sure you wouldn't mind being forced into a concentration camp would you?

Do some reading for ****'s sake....the Palestinians kinda have a right to fight. I certainly cannot blame them..but of course America is on the side of Israel so they means the Palestinians are the evil ones.

You know, firing them homemade rockets while Israel has state of the art military equipments thanks to the good 'ol American taxpayer. YeeeHah!

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## jimmyinkedup

> When Jews remind us of the Holocaust, do you say that this is "b***ing"? 
> 
> In any case, the Palestinian people are not just "b***ing"; they are ready to fight for their freedom to the death, Braveheart style. I just think this "might is right" philosophy died hundreds of years ago, along with other arcane ideas such as the divine right of kings, white man's burden, little brown brothers, perpetual warfare, manifest destiny, etc.


the philosophy may have died ...but the reality is very much alive - unfortunately in this case and most like it. You are citing out individual rights examples- when it comes to international disputes - might usually wins out - right or wrong...

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## Nooomoto

> When Jews remind us of the Holocaust, do you say that this is "b***ing"? 
> 
> In any case, the Palestinian people are not just "b***ing"; they are ready to fight for their freedom to the death, Braveheart style. I just think this "might is right" philosophy died hundreds of years ago, along with other arcane ideas such as the divine right of kings, white man's burden, little brown brothers, perpetual warfare, manifest destiny, etc.


When I referred to bitching, I was talking about you. Not the Palestinians who have the testicular fortitude to do something more than post on a juicer forum about whats right and wrong. I can always respect a soldier who chooses to fight for what he believes in, on whatever side. Whining about an issue never gets anyone anywhere.

And yes, I do consider the Jews bringing up the Holocaust as "bitching."

If you're so concerned dude...why don't you go fight along side the Bravehearted Palestinians? What change do you hope to effect by posting here?

They are killing Zionist pigs in defense of the land they believe to be their own...why aren't you?

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## amcon

> They targeted schools and hospitals. You KNOW they targeted these areas and they didn't give a damn who died to get to their intended target. I can produce sources if you would like, SHOWING what was hit, and how many people were killed if you like? If it wasn't for a UN building being hit, who knows how much longer they would have go on for. 
> 
> The sad part of this is, Hamas is not going to stop. And what is going to happen, is soon Gaza will cease to exist.


hamas wont stop cause they are terriorists!!!! praying on weak people in a huge time of need!!! think man - if the person next door hid behind their children and wifes and pointed rockets at you what would you do??? sit an wave at them???? no freaking way you would have to fight back - hamas is in a peace fire now with israel - the first israel child or wife that is killed the palestines are going to be attacked again by israel and israel will go to the un and say "we wanted a peace fire. the attacked us frist. what should we do ???" then israel is going to have permission to pumble gaza!!!! 

and dont play the card that hamas doesnt hide in schools and hosptials... they do and even brag about it!!!

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## BuffedGuy

> so i will just change one word and the other side of the coin is easily seen....
> 
> There is nothing we can say that will change their minds. Whatever Israel does is justified somehow. 
> 
> there is nothing we can say that will change their minds. *whatever PALESTINE does is justified somehow.*
> 
> every story has a flip side... we see it with hamas firing rockets and expensive missles in to israel during a peace fire after loosing 1300 people...
> 
> man where is the wisdom in that????


Absolute nonsense. I have been highly consistent in condemning the wrong actions of Hamas (and even intensely debating with those who justify them), whereas you and others have yet to lay blame at the feet of Israel. 

As for you saying "expensive missiles", let's not be silly now: they are the cheapest possible rockets that any army in the world uses....they are Chinatown style rockets. You keep repeating that statement, but like always, you fail miserably when it comes to producing proof. I quoted for you proof from a pro-Israeli website that the MOST expensive missiles Hamas produces cost $600, meaning their average missile is much less than that (about $400). 

I also showed you that they only fire on average four missiles per day (and cited you the Israeli ministry's own website as a proof!), meaning that they spend less than $2,000 per day on missiles (high estimate). The population of Gaza is about 500,000. That means that instead of firing rockets, they could feed every Palestinian with a grand total of 0.4 cents per day. That is less than one cent. Less than half of a cent! So your entire theory is patently false and rejected. Yet you will continue to repeat it again and again and again. Why? Why do you remain stubborn upon falsehood?

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## amcon

> Prehaps Buffed is one sided on the basis of his Faith. 
> 
> I am not religious, I am a scientist first. But I agree with Buff. Hamas needs to go, that much is simple...but why cant you see that the Israeli attack was exactly the same as Hamas only on a much bigger scale? I have a friend that is Palestinian, and she is currently in the UAE, and I think it's terrible that one day her home could cease to exist. Why can't you see that Israel are doing to the Palestinians what Germany was doing to Jewish people 60 years ago?


i agree... 100 % that hamas needs to go, so does israel - if the palestinians gave up hamas the conflict would end....

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## amcon

> buff do you think Israel would stop if hamas stopped or do you think they will continue to fight?


prone we have that answer - right now israel is in wait to launch a new attack on palestine (imo) they are going to just wait till they have the approval of the un and other larger powers that will remove hamas... hamas broke the cease fire and israel still hasnt retaliated

...but what if israel broke it then what would happen

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## amcon

> I meant that they started firing rockets now again
> and some members here are justifying that.


nightwolf - i believe you are saying that hamas started firing rockets and missiles - and some people are saying that is ok that hamas broke the cease fire... correct?

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## amcon

> My point being that if they were allowed to fight it out, the loser will have no choice but to accept it...because the loser will be dead.
> 
> That to me seems better than bitching about everything. It's simple.


nooomoto dont feel attacked we are debating this out ... however i do believe you original post sum it up (right or wrong that would solve it) but, we are trying to sway each others view based on logic. and none of this is logical - it goes well beyond that. imo

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## Dinosaur

> Israel wants the land, Hamas wants the land...simple as that. Let them fight it out and the winner gets it.
> 
> Someone will lose, eventually.


it doesn't work like that, israel needs to understand that its no longer the powerful contry in the middle east who can call shots. eventhough, they have nuclear power and the most advanced weapons in the world its not ganna get no where. it needs to stop making collective punishment and get rid of its extremist poloticians in the government. otherwise, the problem will just keep escalting until it will be expending to other countries in the sorounding area which will lead to unpleasent issues which will damage the peace in the region.

after israel will make the chages mentioned wbove than hamas will than have no choice except to merge in the govenment arena and be legitimate party.

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## BuffedGuy

> hamas broke the cease fire and israel still hasnt retaliated


I know you like to live in an Orwellian world, but here in the normal human world (not Bizzaro world) a ceasefire is declared when *both* sides agree to it. Kind of like what happened with the ceasefire that was agreed to last year, which Israel subsequently broke. What Israel just did right now by killing 1,300 Gazans and then declaring a "unilateral ceasefire" (what in the heck is that!?) is like Russia invading America, conquering all of New York, and then saying "unilateral ceasefire" real fast! How come you so boldly say that Palestinians "broke the ceasefire" when they didn't sign any ceasefire to begin with, and meanwhile you refuse to admit that Israel broke the ceasefire that Israel *had* signed last year?! Why the double-standard? You're still unbiased though, right?  :Wink:

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## BuffedGuy

> nightwolf - i believe you are saying that hamas started firing rockets and missiles - and some people are saying that is ok that *hamas broke the cease fire*... correct?


Underlined part is ridiculous! Please go read Animal Farm.

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## BuffedGuy

> i agree... 100 % that hamas needs to go, so does israel - if the palestinians gave up hamas the conflict would end....


The IDF came from a Zionist terrorist organization, namely the Haganah. If the IDF would go, then the conflict would end. See how you never flip things around?

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## *RAGE*

Let me put this out there.....if Israel was to attack palestine all together with all they had the war would last about two weeks and there would be way more then 1300 people dead....let not forget how powerful israel is....that is the answer right there...they are not attacking palestine but attacking Hamas....yes it sucks for the palestinen people......but like in iraq once the air war is over you have to hit the ground and get the terroist cell out and that is what happing right now.....i do not vote for war but this is not a full war......

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## BuffedGuy

> and dont play the card that hamas doesnt hide in schools and hosptials... they do and even brag about it!!!


Show me the proof that Hamas brags that they hide in schools and hospitals. Oh wait, let me guess: this will be one of those times where you say something outlandish without any proof whatsoever and refuse to back up what you say. You have ZERO credibility. You live in an imaginary world.

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## Dinosaur

> i agree... 100 % that hamas needs to go, so does israel - if the palestinians gave up hamas the conflict would end....


this is just a lame excuse that the isreali government use to control more land of palastine. in fact, it is the same excuse that the bush administration uses when they invaded iraq by saying to the media that if the resistance stops than we will leave. on the other hand, he comes in his weekly radio show and say we will stay there for another 100yrs and we will build in bagdad the biggest consulat in the world.

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## BuffedGuy

> Let me put this out there.....if Israel was to attack palestine all together with all they had the war would last about two weeks and there would be way more then 1300 people dead....let not forget how powerful israel is....that is the answer right there...they are not attacking palestine but attacking Hamas....yes it sucks for the palestinen people......but like in iraq once the air war is over you have to hit the ground and get the terroist cell out and that is what happing right now.....i do not vote for war but this is not a full war......


Completely absurd logic. It's like the Nazis saying "if Hitler had wanted, he could have killed ALL the Jews, but he only killed some of them and kept some of them in camps." And knowing how you guys spin apologetic defenses, you would say something like: See how compassionate Hitler was--he even spent millions of dollars making housing for Jews, spent money on their clothes, etc. Had he wanted, he could have just left them all to die, but he didn't. Oh look how magnanimous he is! 

Somehow we are supposed to thank Israel for only killing 1,300 and not more than that? Give me a break.

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## BuffedGuy

> this is just a lame excuse that the isreali government use to control more land of palastine. in fact, it is the same excuse that the bush administration uses when they invaded iraq by saying to the media that if the resistance stops than we will leave. on the other hand, he comes in his weekly radio show and say we will stay there for another 100yrs and we will build in bagdad the biggest consulat in the world.


We're attacking because Iraq is connected to Al-Qaeda.

Oh wait no, not that...we're attacking because they have WMDs! 

Oh wait no, not that either...ok, we're attacking because [insert garbage excuse here]

----------


## *RAGE*

> Completely absurd logic. It's like the Nazis saying "if Hitler had wanted, he could have killed ALL the Jews, but he only killed some of them and kept some of them in camps." *why do you keep going to hitler this is not the same not even close....*And knowing how you guys spin apologetic defenses, you would say something like: See how compassionate Hitler was--he even spent millions of dollars making housing for Jews, spent money on their clothes, etc. *again buff this is not the same israel is not making soap out the pal bodys*Had he wanted, he could have just left them all to die, but he didn't. Oh look how magnanimous he is! 
> 
> Somehow we are supposed to thank Israel for only killing 1,300 and not more than that? Give me a break.


*no dont thank them not at all but help them if you want to stop.....give them hamas.....and hitler did try and take over the world....and if he did you and i would not be here..*

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## Dinosaur

> We're attacking because Iraq is connected to Al-Qaeda.
> 
> Oh wait no, not that...we're attacking because they have WMDs! 
> 
> Oh wait no, not that either...ok, we're attacking because [insert garbage excuse here]


yeah i hear, you know i came to find that the main problem with people is they don't know how to distinguish between right and wrong no more. so just because hamas is in the gaza strip and fighting against israel they have no right to do that and all the people in gaza should be punished all of them are hamas fighters.

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## BuffedGuy

> If you're so concerned dude...why don't you go fight along side the Bravehearted Palestinians? What change do you hope to effect by posting here?


I believe that my role is to fight _Jihad al-Lisan_, which means The Spoken Struggle. We believe that the ink of the scholar runs thicker than the blood of a martyr. The ideological war is more important than the physical war. 

It is a part of my religion to defend justice with my words (be it for or against Muslims), and it makes sense even on a purely non-religious level: the more people who are made aware of the facts, the less likely it is that our American government can get away with giving billions of dollars to Israel to continue this war on my Palestinian brothers.




> They are killing Zionist pigs in defense of the land they believe to be their own...why aren't you?


Because my role is different. My weapon is the pen.

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## MuscleScience

I remember when this board was about bodybuilding and dieting and flaming newbs for doing oral only cycles... Alas those where the days.

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## *RAGE*

> We're attacking because Iraq is connected to Al-Qaeda*.(this is not true???????*
> 
> Oh wait no, not that...we're attacking because they have WMDs! *we have went through this before you dont know anything about it and how easy would it have been to get them out of the country*
> 
> Oh wait no, not that either...ok, we're attacking because [insert garbage excuse here]


*because you have nothing yet again...*

----------


## *RAGE*

> I believe that my role is to fight _Jihad al-Lisan_, which means The Spoken Struggle. We believe that the ink of the scholar runs thicker than the blood of a martyr. The ideological war is more important than the physical war. 
> 
> It is a part of my religion to defend justice with my words (be it for or against Muslims), and it makes sense even on a purely non-religious level: the more people who are made aware of the facts, the less likely it is that our American government can get away with giving billions of dollars to Israel to continue this war on my Palestinian brothers.*this show how much you dont know...it does not work like that...but then again its just what you write is right right?*
> 
> 
> 
> Because my role is different. My weapon is the pen.


I will leave that alone

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## *RAGE*

> I remember when this board was about bodybuilding and dieting and flaming newbs for doing oral only cycles... Alas those where the days.


that was the reason i started and will continue in this forum...50% of my post are either mma, steroid question and answer, the other is in the ar forum just a small part are in the news.....how about you buff where are yours?

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## Dinosaur

> I can always respect a soldier who chooses to fight for what he believes in, on whatever side. Whining about an issue never gets anyone anywhere.


so it wont matter to you if this soldier you are proud of fights a war that has been based on falsehood, transgration and taking over other people's rights and lands.

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## *RAGE*

> so it wont matter to you if this soldier you are proud of fights a war that has been based on falsehood, transgration and taking over other people's rights and lands.


charrif it is not the soldier that make the rules he is just the one that fights..it is the one that makes the policy who starts the war based on incidents.

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## BuffedGuy

> We're attacking because Iraq is connected to Al-Qaeda. *this is not true???????*


Please stop living in an imaginary world. There was no connection at all to Al-Qaeda, until of course America invaded Iraq and *made* it into a haven for Al-Qaeda. Saddam Hussein had absolutely no connection to Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda had declared Saddam Hussein an apostate and disbeliever long time ago, and Saddam Hussein was known for being a Baathist secularist who used to shut down mosques.

But of course *you* know more on this issue because you are a soldier, and we all know how well-informed soldiers are. (As the joke goes, they learn their geography by bombing countries, since before that, they could not even point to Iraq on the map.)

Anyways, here you go:
*Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda not linked, Pentagon says*

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military's first and only study looking into ties between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda showed no connection between the two, according to a military report released by the Pentagon.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/13/alqaeda.saddam/But of course you know more than the Pentagon, because after all, soldiers are very well-informed people in general. [/sarcasm]




> Oh wait no, not that...we're attacking because they have WMDs! *we have went through this before you dont know anything about it and how easy would it have been to get them out of the country*


From MSNBC:
*CIA’s final report: No WMD found in Iraq*

WASHINGTON - In his final word, the CIA’s top weapons inspector in Iraq said Monday that the hunt for weapons of mass destruction has “gone as far as feasible” and has found nothing, closing an investigation into the purported programs of Saddam Hussein that were used to justify the 2003 invasion.

“After more than 18 months, the WMD investigation and debriefing of the WMD-related detainees has been exhausted,” wrote Charles Duelfer, head of the Iraq Survey Group, in an addendum to the final report he issued last fall.

*...The Iraq Survey Group believes "it was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place."*

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/
As my brethren in 711's say: Thank you, come again.

----------


## *RAGE*

buff you are telling me that Israel could not take over the country in a couple of weeks if they wanted to... please.....if it even took them that long...am i saying this is right no far from it........that would be f----up........but the longer hamas hides and shoots rocket into israel the longer this will continue.......why dont you see this???
I cant say they will get their land back but at least they would be peace

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## BuffedGuy

> that was the reason i started and will continue in this forum...50% of my post are either mma, steroid question and answer, the other is in the ar forum just a small part are in the news.....how about you buff where are yours?


Why do I have to justify why I am here? This is not the steroids subsection. It is the news subsection. It is about news, not juice. I have every right to be here, and if I am in violation of any of the rules, the mods can inform me of that. But so far, they are OK with it.

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## Nooomoto

> so it wont matter to you if this soldier you are proud of fights a war that has been based on falsehood, transgration and taking over other people's rights and lands.


I never said I was proud of any one, I said I can "respect" a soldier who fights for what he believes in...two completely different things. I don't respect underhanded commentary and pontificating.

Everyone here is picking one side or the other...I'm asking why doesn't any one go and do something about it? If that isn't to be the case, which it clearly isn't, then let the people who are doing something sort it out.

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## Dinosaur

> charrif it is not the soldier that make the rules he is just the one that fights..it is the one that makes the policy who starts the war based on incidents.


to be honest with you if i were a soldier and i was told to invade or attack a contry or a city based on false intelligence, claims or just to punish people. i will certainly with no doubt object/refuse to fight against these people. no matter where this order comes from. i have a very guilty conscience. why do you think this soldiers that comeback from iraq make suicide. cause they know they have commited wrong doing they can't leave with it.

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## BuffedGuy

> buff you are telling me that Israel could not take over the country in a couple of weeks if they wanted to... please.....if it even took them that long...am i saying this is right no far from it........that would be f----up........but the longer hamas hides and shoots rocket into israel the longer this will continue.......why dont you see this???
> I cant say they will get their land back but at least they would be peace


What I am telling you is that they already rule the land. Therefore you saying "they could take over the country in a couple weeks" is nonsense, because they already have the land to begin with. Right now, Israel has the best possible arrangement: "autonomy", which basically means that Palestinians must provide for their own sanitation, infrastructure, etc., whilst Israel maintains the benefits of occupation. So contrary to what you say, it is no mercy that they aren't directly ruling the land; rather, they are reaping the benefits of occupation without even servicing the people like the British would do when they colonized lands. (The British, for example, built train stations in India, kept good sanitation, etc.) It is more on the South African model, whereby Bantustans were created. In actuality however, the Bantustans were better, although that is a topic for another time.

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## BuffedGuy

> to be honest with you if i were a soldier and i was told to invade or attack a contry or a city based on false intelligence, claims or just to punish people. i will certainly with no doubt object/refuse to fight against these people. no matter where this order comes from. i have a very guilty conscience. why do you think this soldiers that comeback from iraq make suicide. cause they know they have commited wrong doing they can't leave with it.


Every soul will be responsible for its own actions. Those who know they are fighting an illegal and unjust war will be guilty on the Day of Judgment, unless they repent.

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## Dinosaur

> I never said I was proud of any one, I said I can "respect" a soldier who fights for what he believes in...two completely different things. I don't respect underhanded commentary and pontificating.
> 
> Everyone here is picking one side or the other...I'm asking why doesn't any one go and do something about it? If that isn't to be the case, which it clearly isn't, then let the people who are doing something sort it out.



what can we do to stop this fighting that should've been done and we weren't able to do? call my congressman and tell him to intervene? 

so far, i have not seen any nation from the advanced countries who's not one-sided so it makes very hard task. that's my view of the situation.

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## *RAGE*

> Please stop living in an imaginary world. *i AM NOT THE ONE LIVING IN THE IMAGINARY WORLD I HAVE BEEN THERE I HAVE SEEN IT..YOU ARE THE ONE WATCHING THE NEWS AND COMING TO A AAS SITE TO TYPE ABOUT THIS.*There was no connection at all to Al-Qaeda, until of course America invaded Iraq and *made* it into a haven for Al-Qaeda. Saddam Hussein had absolutely no connection to Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda had declared Saddam Hussein an apostate and disbeliever long time ago, and Saddam Hussein was known for being a Baathist secularist who used to shut down mosques.*lol this show how much you dont know again al qaeda is just a name terroist is also another name.......most of the iraqi that i talked to said saddam hussein was the biggest terroist know in the middle east he has killed a lot more then the US....*
> 
> But of course *you* know more on this issue because you are a soldier, and we all know how well-informed soldiers are. *do you read what i write i am not a soldier i was given a lot more information then any soldier of the higher command was given..* (As the joke goes, they learn their geography by bombing countries, since before that, they could not even point to Iraq on the map.)*i dont find that funny*
> 
> Anyways, here you go:
> *Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda not linked, Pentagon says*
> 
> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military's first and only study looking into ties between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda showed no connection between the two, according to a military report released by the Pentagon.*CNN does not have report from the military or cia!!! come on dude* 
> 
> ...



i will

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## BuffedGuy

> I never said I was proud of any one, I said I can "respect" a soldier who fights for what he believes in...two completely different things. I don't respect underhanded commentary and pontificating.
> 
> Everyone here is picking one side or the other...I'm asking why doesn't any one go and do something about it? If that isn't to be the case, which it clearly isn't, then let the people who are doing something sort it out.


Peace be unto you, *Nooomoto*. 

I was too harsh on you. I apologize. Let me explain to you the benefit in us discussing this issue: it raises awareness in people, and if enough awareness is raised, then we Americans can pressure our government to stop funding Israel. If Israel loses the billions of dollars it gets from America, this will be a big blow to Israel, certainly more so than a rocket being launched at Israel. Therefore, this is how a word can be more powerful than a bomb.

Furthermore, if Americans are made aware of the situation, they can pressure their government to pressure Israel into making a fair peace with Palestinians, i.e. the two-state solution on the 1947 or 1967 borders.

Hope that helps understand why I think it is so crucial to "b****" on this issue.  :Smilie: 

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

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## Dinosaur

> Every soul will be responsible for its own actions. Those who know they are fighting an illegal and unjust war will be guilty on the Day of Judgment, unless they repent.


i beleive they this people who do this wrong doings they get punished in this life before the hearafter.

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## BuffedGuy

> i will


There is nothing worthy of being refuted in your post. Next time just randomly hit buttons on your keyboard, then press "submit reply." The matter will be the same.

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## *RAGE*

> to be honest with you if i were a soldier and i was told to invade or attack a contry or a city based on false intelligence, claims or just to punish people. i will certainly with no doubt object/refuse to fight against these people. no matter where this order comes from. i have a very guilty conscience. why do you think this soldiers that comeback from iraq make suicide. cause they know they have commited wrong doing they can't leave with it.


I have served in combat,,,,,the suicide is not so much from the enemy but from what you experience over there such as seeing your best friend blow appart, and they come home and find their other friend had been sleeping with his wife......soldiler do not think much about write or wrong when the shit hits the fan.....it is more about how can i make it home.....I have said this before taken from a friend of mine.....all the policy and politics go out the window when the first round goes past your head...now on the part of you not going to fight in something you do not believe in (I have so much respect in that you would never now and i cant explain in writing) that comes from my heart.........

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## BuffedGuy

> i beleive they this people who do this wrong doings they get punished in this life before the hearafter.


Our Islamic belief is that wrong-doers will be either punished in this life or the next. If God punishes them in this life, it is a Mercy for them. If however He gives them respite in this worldly life, then they will face a far greater torment in the next life. The more wicked a person is, the more likely it will be that he will receive respite from God (in this worldly life). Remember: there is no one more evil than Satan, and God granted Satan respite until the Day of Judgment. Satan asked for this respite, and God granted it to him. So the person who has been given the greatest respite is Satan, and we all know his fate on the Day.

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## *RAGE*

> There is nothing worthy of being refuted in your post. Next time just randomly hit buttons on your keyboard, then press "submit reply." The matter will be the same.


now now buff dont get mad this is just a forum.......i put it out there for you and now you dont what to take it further.....you have no clue what you are talking about because you have not been there....that is the truth....walking away and just say i am hitting a keyboard........that is not like you take a brake and come back to it......

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## BuffedGuy

> now now buff dont get mad this is just a forum.......i put it out there for you and now you dont what to take it further.....you have no clue what you are talking about because you have not been there....that is the truth....walking away and just say i am hitting a keyboard........that is not like you take a brake and come back to it......


frdhgloiwq3ehytgolredfwatyhgkl,/;k

----------


## *RAGE*

> frdhgloiwq3ehytgolredfwatyhgkl,/;k


that is sad.....this thread has come to an end........

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## BuffedGuy

> that is sad.....this thread has come to an end........


If you come up with any substantive arguments, I would refute them. Just replying with four words after every argument of mine is not a refutation, even if you think it is. If someone neutral were to judge this debate, he would judge not by who got the last word in, but whose arguments were left standing and whose arguments were refuted.

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## Dinosaur

> I have served in combat,,,,,the suicide is not so much from the enemy but from what you experience over there such as seeing your best friend blow appart, and they come home and find their other friend had been sleeping with his wife......soldiler do not think much about write or wrong when the shit hits the fan.....it is more about how can i make it home.....I have said this before taken from a friend of mine.....all the policy and politics go out the window when the first round goes past your head...now on the part of you not going to fight in something you do not believe in (I have so much respect in that you would never now and i cant explain in writing) that comes from my heart.........


i have done two yrs mys self. i understand where coming from. it 's just sometimes when you know the cause of the war and you are sure that you are fighting for the good cause it helps a lot, while on the other hand, if the war is based on a myth / false claim you always question your self wether you are doing the right thing or not. this is how i feel if i were to go to a war.

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## Dinosaur

> Our Islamic belief is that wrong-doers will be either punished in this life or the next. If God punishes them in this life, it is a Mercy for them. If however He gives them respite in this worldly life, then they will face a far greater torment in the next life. The more wicked a person is, the more likely it will be that he will receive respite from God (in this worldly life). Remember: there is no one more evil than Satan, and God granted Satan respite until the Day of Judgment. Satan asked for this respite, and God granted it to him. So the person who has been given the greatest respite is Satan, and we all know his fate on the Day.



truly, god is all forgiving, all merciful.

----------


## *RAGE*

> i have done two yrs mys self. i understand where coming from. it 's just sometimes when you know the cause of the war and you are sure that you are fighting for the good cause it helps a lot, while on the other hand, if the war is based on a myth / false claim you always question your self wether you are doing the right thing or not. this is how i feel if i were to go to a war.


well put and i respect that....

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## *RAGE*

> If you come up with any substantive arguments, I would refute them. Just replying with four words after every argument of mine is not a refutation, even if you think it is. If someone neutral were to judge this debate, he would judge not by who got the last word in, but whose arguments were left standing and whose arguments were refuted.


also well put.....much respect buff even if you do not believe it......

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## *RAGE*

> truly, god is all forgiving, all merciful.


I also believe this....

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## BuffedGuy

> I also believe this....


I do too. I pray that God guides all those who are wrong-doers and leads them to the path of righteousness.

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## Dinosaur

> I also believe this....



good to have faith, it helps a lot especially during the time of crisis. at least you who to return to.

peace.

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## BuffedGuy

> also well put.....much respect buff even if you do not believe it......


Notwithstanding our differences, I really think you have a good quality. It is an extremely rare (and good) quality for people to seek reconciliation with others. It is a golden quality. Don't lose it ever.

Peace be unto you.

----------


## amcon

> Absolute nonsense. I have been highly consistent in condemning the wrong actions of Hamas (and even intensely debating with those who justify them), whereas you and others have yet to lay blame at the feet of Israel. 
> 
> As for you saying "expensive missiles", let's not be silly now: they are the cheapest possible rockets that any army in the world uses....they are Chinatown style rockets. You keep repeating that statement, but like always, you fail miserably when it comes to producing proof. I quoted for you proof from a pro-Israeli website that the MOST expensive missiles Hamas produces cost $600, meaning their average missile is much less than that (about $400). 
> 
> I also showed you that they only fire on average four missiles per day (and cited you the Israeli ministry's own website as a proof!), meaning that they spend less than $2,000 per day on missiles (high estimate). The population of Gaza is about 500,000. That means that instead of firing rockets, they could feed every Palestinian with a grand total of 0.4 cents per day. That is less than one cent. Less than half of a cent! So your entire theory is patently false and rejected. Yet you will continue to repeat it again and again and again. Why? Why do you remain stubborn upon falsehood?


From the beginning of the year until June 19, Israel was struck by 2,660 projectiles fired from Gaza *17 per day avg... 
*
From June 19, when the tahdiya went into effect, to Nov. 4, the total was 65. *(cease fire?)*

But on Nov. 5 a new round of "negotiations"  with weapons  began when Israel struck what it said were militants tunneling under the Gaza fence. Hamas responded with a barrage of rocket fire that has continued for most of the past month. *From Nov. 5 to Dec. 10, 237 mortar shells* and rockets have been fired from Gaza at towns in southern Israel, prompting Israeli leaders to call for a tough military response. *avg 200+ for that month*

Also, since Dec. 10, there have been several dozens of rockets a day, so I'd estimate somewhere around 300-600 have been shot by now. *are you kidding me???*

The year 2008 saw a dramatic increase in the extent of HAMAS rocket fire and mortar attacks on Israel, with a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landingin Israeli territory...

Hamas launched an upsurge in rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza once it declared an end to a truce with Israel on 19 December 2008. By 18 December 2008 Palestinian militants had fired at least 40 missiles into Israel since Tuesday 16 December 2008. On Wednesday 17 December 2008 no less than 24 rockets landed in the Western Negev desert area. On Thursday 18 December 2008 a further seven rockets landed in Israel. On December 24, five days after the lull arrangement ended, the cities of Ashqelon , Netivot and Sderot, the towns and villages near the Gaza Strip, the crossings and IDF bases were subjected to a massive rocket and mortar shell attack. At least 60 rockets and mortar shells were fired, most of them by Hamas. Palestinian militants fired over 40 rockets and 20 mortar shells at southern Israeli border towns in the largest daily attack since the end of a six-month ceasefire. Hamas responded by firing more rockets and mortars into southern Israel.

By 15 January 2009, since the beginning of the IDF operation in Gaza (Dec 27, 2008), four Israelis had been killed and 285 wounded by rocket fire. 771 rockets and mortars had been fired at Israel.

about the rockets:



The WeiShi [literally "Guardian", (WS) family of the multiple launch rocket systems were developed by China's Sichuan Aerospace Industry Corporation (SCAIC, also known as Base 062) in Chengdu, Sichuan Province. The WeiShi series includes the 122mm WS-1E with a ranage of 40km. The WS-1 series weapon system did not enter PLA service, and was not known to have received any orders from foreign customers. *sounds expensive not 400 dollars*

While news accounts reference these as Grad rockets [the Russian nomenclature] or "enhanced Katyusha", the rockets used in the attack on Ashdod must have a range twice that of the BM-21 Grad. Photographs of a rocket that landed near Gan Yavne, northeast of Ashdod on 28 December, do indicate that it was a 122-mm rocket. This is inconsistent with the idea that HAMAS was using Iranian-made rockets, either the Oghab with a range of 34-45 km or the Fajr-3 / Ra'ad with a range of 45 km....

On 28 December 2008, two impacts of artillery rockets were identified near the towns of Gan Yavne and Bnei Darom. The rockets were launched from the northern Gaza Strip and attained ranges of some 33-34 km. Examination showed that they were Chinese-made rockets with similar characteristics to standard 122-mm rockets. The maximum range of those rockets is up to 40 km.

some of what hamas has is cheap rockets...others are much more expensive

----------


## BuffedGuy

> From the beginning of the year until June 19, Israel was struck by 2,660 projectiles fired from Gaza *17 per day avg... 
> *
> From June 19, when the tahdiya went into effect, to Nov. 4, the total was 65. *(cease fire?)*
> 
> But on Nov. 5 a new round of "negotiations" — with weapons — began when Israel struck what it said were militants tunneling under the Gaza fence. Hamas responded with a barrage of rocket fire that has continued for most of the past month. *From Nov. 5 to Dec. 10, 237 mortar shells* and rockets have been fired from Gaza at towns in southern Israel, prompting Israeli leaders to call for a tough military response. *avg 200+ for that month*
> 
> Also, since Dec. 10, there have been several dozens of rockets a day, so I'd estimate somewhere around 300-600 have been shot by now. *are you kidding me???*
> 
> The year 2008 saw a dramatic increase in the extent of HAMAS rocket fire and mortar attacks on Israel, with a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landingin Israeli territory...
> ...


I will respond after I finish studying a chapter, God-Willing.

----------


## amcon

> Our Islamic belief is that wrong-doers will be either punished in this life or the next. If God punishes them in this life, it is a Mercy for them. If however He gives them respite in this worldly life, then they will face a far greater torment in the next life. The more wicked a person is, the more likely it will be that he will receive respite from God (in this worldly life). Remember: there is no one more evil than Satan, and God granted Satan respite until the Day of Judgment. Satan asked for this respite, and God granted it to him. So the person who has been given the greatest respite is Satan, and we all know his fate on the Day.


amen to that according to the new test!!!

----------


## amcon

> I will respond after I finish studying a chapter, God-Willing.


ha, i fired a book back at you !!! keep it simple please all i did was cut and past the info took me 3 minutes...

----------


## amcon

just for the record = hamas booby traping schools and hospitals, why would they do that?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU

----------


## amcon

this is why schools get bombed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9WzUc7iB0&NR=1

----------


## Dinosaur

> this is why schools get bombed
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9WzUc7iB0&NR=1


keep in mind that israel still didn't comply to this date with the u.n resolutiuon 242 to end the occupation of the 1967 territories. no country on earth could stand up for the right thing to make israel comply with the resolution. while it is backed 100% by the U.S.
what would you do if you were to be a citizen of that occupied country. plz, watch the video and before you make your own judgement think twice of what this people go through every single day with road check points in everywhere u go. more than 60% of the population are unemployed and 75% lives below the poverty line. furthermore, you need to show your identification card to the same people that OCCUPY your land, if you need to travel you go ask for a visa again, from the same occpier. how would that make you feel if you were one of them. i will trust that you will be fair and non bias this time. here is the video.

prt# 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4

prt# 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo2HW...eature=related

----------


## Matt

> just for the record = hamas booby traping schools and hospitals, why would they do that?
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU


Rubbish, did you see the sophisticated wirering and explosive, Hamas doesnt have that you brainwashed fool.
Next you going to be telling us that thier being supplied by aliens..

----------


## NightWolf

> And why not, israel are treating it as a giant jail, treat me in this way and i will fire rockets at you..


Do that, but be ready for the consequences,
israel pulled out from Gaza, why start firing rockets
again? do they WANT the israelis to go back in again?

----------


## NightWolf

> *I'm not justifying the firing of rockets*.


Yes you are

----------


## NightWolf

> the Palestinians kinda have a right to fight.


Sure they do, but then why bitch about it
when israel retaliates? In one min Hamas wants
peace, the next min they start firing rockets?







> You know, firing them homemade rockets while Israel has state of the art military equipments thanks to the good 'ol American taxpayer. YeeeHah!


Thats war, its not meant to be fair, get over it.

----------


## Matt

> Do that, but be ready for the consequences,
> israel pulled out from Gaza, why start firing rockets
> again? do they WANT the israelis to go back in again?


Do you think they fired those rockets for nothing? Do you not wander why? Do you not ask yourself why would they start firing rockets again? 
Thier people are starving yet israel refuse to open the boarders, many people want to leave but again israel have told them thier not going anywhere. They live like animals and are treated like animals. You people just hear that they are firering and not once do you ask, well why are they doing this? Whats causing this to happen? Its like the blind leading the blind...

----------


## NightWolf

> Do you think they fired those rockets for nothing? Do you not wander why? Do you not ask yourself why would they start firing rockets again? 
> Thier people are starving yet israel refuse to open the boarders, many people want to leave but again israel have told them thier not going anywhere. They live like animals and are treated like animals. You people just hear that they are firering and not once do you ask, well why are they doing this? Whats causing this to happen? Its like the blind leading the blind...


You are missing the point,

I understand WHY they are firing rockets
but do YOU understand why israel retaliates?

I ask again, WHY did hamas beg egypt for
peace when israel was still in Gaza?

Do they want peace or fire rockets?
They cant have both.

----------


## Matt

They want peace on the condition they get thier land back, as stated in UN resolution 242 dating back to 1967. They want peace on the condition thier boarders are opened so they can feed themselves. They want peace on the condition that they are treated like humans and not dogs. All israel has to do is give them thier basic human rights and all this will stop..

----------


## alex18

heres my bumper sticker

http://www.bumperart.com/ProductImag...Display-35.gif

----------


## BuffedGuy

> They want peace on the condition they get thier land back, as stated in UN resolution 242 dating back to 1967. They want peace on the condition thier boarders are opened so they can feed themselves. They want peace on the condition that they are treated like humans and not dogs. All israel has to do is give them thier basic human rights and all this will stop..


This is the bottom line. This is the crux of the issue. Everything else is jibber jabber.

EDIT: MadMatt, you are one of the few who have truly understood the conflict. Your responses are excellent.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Do they want peace or fire rockets?
> They cant have both.


They want peace along with their half of the land as given to them by the United Nations and international law.

----------


## amcon

> keep in mind that israel still didn't comply to this date with the u.n resolutiuon 242 to end the occupation of the 1967 territories. no country on earth could stand up for the right thing to make israel comply with the resolution. while it is backed 100% by the U.S.
> what would you do if you were to be a citizen of that occupied country. plz, watch the video and before you make your own judgement think twice of what this people go through every single day with road check points in everywhere u go. more than 60% of the population are unemployed and 75% lives below the poverty line. furthermore, you need to show your identification card to the same people that OCCUPY your land, if you need to travel you go ask for a visa again, from the same occpier. how would that make you feel if you were one of them. i will trust that you will be fair and non bias this time. here is the video.
> 
> prt# 1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4
> 
> prt# 2
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo2HW...eature=related


charrif i am totally on board with what you are saying!!! my position is that both sides are at fault - and rockets are not the way to fix that... sadly i dont have a solution for them (either side) just prayers...

----------


## amcon

> You are missing the point,
> 
> I understand WHY they are firing rockets
> but do YOU understand why israel retaliates?
> 
> I ask again, WHY did hamas beg egypt for
> peace when israel was still in Gaza?
> 
> Do they want peace or fire rockets?
> They cant have both.


i couldnt have worded it better... that is my bottom line - good response

----------


## amcon

> Rubbish, did you see the sophisticated wirering and explosive, Hamas doesnt have that you brainwashed fool.
> Next you going to be telling us that thier being supplied by aliens..


ok name calling will get this closed... so chill out. stop being mad(i am so funny) any ways ...

sophisticated wiring ??? dude that was not real sophisticated to me... it was just what it was - booby trapped civilian areas... get mad at it but not at me... there were tons of videos like that... 

... as for brain washed - so what your brainwashed to think israel did that? hamas is not the back woods fighters with bow and arrows people like to protray them as (the have milssles that have ranges of 40+ k!!! with guidence systems)

----------


## Matt

amcon let me ask you this. Lets just say that tomorrow morning you woke up to find that i had parked my trailer in your drive. Taken over your garden, kitchen living room and bathroom. I tell you that you can live in your bedroom and thats it, you cant leave unless i let you, you cant eat unless i let you. What do you do?? Just start by answering this very simple question????

----------


## BuffedGuy

> amcon let me ask you this. Lets just say that tomorrow morning you woke up to find that i had parked my trailer in your drive. Taken over your garden, kitchen living room and bathroom. I tell you that you can live in your bedroom and thats it, you cant leave unless i let you, you cant eat unless i let you. What do you do?? Just start by answering this very simple question????


Amcon's response: you're both wrong.

----------


## amcon

> Amcon's response: you're both wrong.


i"ll pray i actually didnt wake up in gaza... if i did i would put a foot in there ass, and burry them in the sand.

or i would just say get out, flex and they would run....

----------


## Matt

> i"ll pray i actually didnt wake up in gaza... if i did i would put a foot in there ass, and burry them in the sand.
> 
> or i would just say get out, flex and they would run....


Lets just say that you threw a punch at me, i ducked and you missed, i then kicked shit out of you. But a few days later you threw another punch at me and the same thing happens, i kick shit out of you. Now yet again you threw another punch at me and someone sees this in the street and says amcon, why do you keep trying to hit him? Your only going to get hurt, and you say, i do it because he has taken over my house, he is making me and my family live like animals, i have to try and do something.. Does this ring any bells??

----------


## Matt

I am unable to write aswell as Buff so i hope this makes some sort of sense...

----------


## amcon

> Lets just say that you threw a punch at me, i ducked and you missed, i then kicked shit out of you. But a few days later you threw another punch at me and the same thing happens, i kick shit out of you. Now yet again you threw another punch at me and someone sees this in the street and says amcon, why do you keep trying to hit him? Your only going to get hurt, and you say, i do it because he has taken over my house, he is making me and my family live like animals, i have to try and do something.. Does this ring any bells??


id cry and just go some where else(serious)... but if i wouldnt throw a punch first i would shoulder press you and throw you on you head(joking)...

----------


## NightWolf

> They want peace along with their half of the land as given to them by the United Nations and international law.


But you have to agree that firing rocktes into
israel is not going to acomplish that.

What that will do is just piss off the jews and then
they will go back into gaza.

----------


## Matt

> id cry and just go some where else(serious)... but if i wouldnt throw a punch first i would shoulder press you and throw you on you head(joking)...


Theres just no hope...

----------


## amcon

> Theres just no hope...


i agree mad... there is just no hope - but one thing will def invoke israel's rath... firing rockets in to israel... and i do understand why palestines fight what else can they do???? fight and die or not fight and die... whooosh what can they do?

----------


## gst528i

This is so sad. On one side i would like to give the israel people full authority in defending themselves. 
Than you see why the palestinians are doing it. Just torn.

If history has taught us anything is, survival of the fittest.


On a side note, can some explain why jersualem is so important to jews, muslims and christians. 
Do all three religions believe this is a holy place? If so why? What is future expectations of it. 

oh BUFFEDGUY how would you like to right me a paper on this. I am in this class that requires me to write about a war. One that requires to pick a side than discuss propoganda during the war. 
Hahah i would love give my teacher a long one to head lol the bitch will back of my case. She pick on me just coz i talk to girls during her lecture. That bitch

----------


## BuffedGuy

> On a side note, can some explain why jersualem is so important to jews, muslims and christians. 
> Do all three religions believe this is a holy place? If so why? What is future expectations of it.


OK I replied in the Ask a Muslim thread...I answered in two very short posts:

Why Jerusalem is holy to Muslims

Why Jerusalem being holy to Muslims does not mean we are allowed to conquer it and dispossess those who live there: A summary of the Muslim rule of Jerusalem

And by short I mean incredibly long.  :Smilie:

----------


## gst528i

thanks buffedguy. 

I know you have always defended what hamas is doing. can you defend this?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...d/6247491.html

U.N. says Hamas militants ransacked goods for needy
By ASHRAF KHALIL LOS ANGELES TIMES
Feb. 5, 2009, 12:01AM
CAIRO, Egypt — The United Nations on Wednesday accused the militant group Hamas of breaking into a Gaza Strip warehouse and stealing food and blankets intended for distribution to 500 needy families.

Armed police officers broke into a warehouse in the Beach Refugee Camp in Gaza City and confiscated more than 3,500 blankets and 400 food parcels Tuesday, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency said.

The police entered the warehouse shortly after humanitarian aid staff had refused to hand over the supplies to the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs, said UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness .

“They came and tried to take it and then they came back and took it by force,” Gunness said in an interview. “We have protested to the local authorities.”

In a statement, the agency said it “condemns in the strongest terms the confiscation of its aid supplies and has demanded that it is returned immediately.”

Ahmad Kurd, a Hamas ministry official, said the U.N. was providing aid to local groups associated with Hamas opponents, according to The Associated Press. A ministry spokesman said the U.N. was storing blankets in an unauthorized area.

UNRWA was created in 1948 to provide assistance to millions of Palestinian refugees left homeless after the creation of Israel. The agency provides food and other aid to more than half of the Gaza Strip’s population of 1.5 million.

The confrontation reflects a larger dispute over who will control the flow of aid, supplies and funding needed to help Gaza rebuild following a 22-day Israeli offensive designed to end years of Gazan rocket launches against southern Israeli cities.

Hamas officials have claimed they were open to multiple agencies, governments and organizations participating in the reconstruction process — even its rival Fatah faction, which controls the Palestinian Authority.

Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad announced Wednesday the creation of a $600 million reconstruction fund to rebuild the estimated 5,000 homes destroyed during the Israeli offensive. Most of the funds will be contributed by wealthy nations.

----------


## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *GST528i*.




> thanks buffedguy. 
> 
> I know you have always defended what hamas is doing. can you defend this?


I have not always defended Hamas.  :Smilie:  Rather, I have criticized them and even debated with their staunchest of supporters, who justify and whitewash everything they do. For example, I believe that suicide bombing is completely forbidden in Islam, even if done against purely military targets. I also oppose the rocket attacks. 

You have to understand that in the same way that the pro-Israeli members on this forum will defend *every* action of Israel by making up justifications, you have the same thing going on with Hamas supporters. So you will listen to their arguments, and they sound so amazingly similar. For example, Hamas supporters say that the rocket attacks are justified because Hamas does *not* target civilians; rather, they point their rockets in the general direction of Israel and since their rockets are so rudimentary, they end up landing anywhere, which is "out of the control" of Hamas. In other words, they lack the capability to aim at purely military targets; otherwise they would.

The above is the explanation given by Hamas itself and the die-hard supporters of Hamas. It is similar to the reasoning of Israel: "we had to fire the missiles into that school, because Hamas militants were nearby." But I reject Israel's logic just as I reject Hamas's logic. What I say is that we should not simply be looking for legal cover; rather, we as human beings should have moral consciences and soft hearts. Regardless of the legal justifications for attacks, we should say to ourselves: 'hey, do I really want to kill all these innocent people?' 

So I reject Israel's justification: if I knew that militants were next to a school, I certainly wouldn't bomb that school. That's like the police bombing a bank because bank-robbers had taken the bank employees hostage. (For the record, I think that it is a lie that Israel bombs schools because militants hide out there; nobody can prove their claims. But EVEN if it was true, I would still reject it as a justification.) 

Similarly, I completely reject Hamas's logic that they are justified in launching rockets since they don't specifically TARGET civilians. But cmon let's be real: you have to be brain dead not to know that they WILL land on civilian heads. You can't keep launching rockets and saying "oh we didn't intend for that to happen", and then you keep doing it! Can you imagine someone who has gas problems always eating beans which makes him fart...he might say "I don't eat the beans to fart", but the fact is that every time he eats those beans, he is GOING TO fart, so he should use his brain and say beans = fart. Likewise, Hamas should realize that launching rockets = dead civilians, and Israel should realize that their merciless bombing raids = dead civilians.

When Israel continually bombs Palestine, they say "oh well, we didn't target civilians, and we couldn't possibly have known that so many civilians would have died." Oh really? You've been doing this for 50 years; haven't figured it out yet? Puh-lease. The SAME is the case with the Hamas rockets. Yes, they justify it by saying they can't aim, but how many times do those rockets land on civilian heads as opposed to military targets? 

I also reject the Hamas supporters justification that all Israeli citizens are part of the military since they are ordered to serve in the military by law. I've written a long refutation of this argument in the Ask a Muslim thread. To me, this argument is as false as the Israeli justifications for killing Palestinians: "they are all Hamas supporters, they voted for Hamas, their children grow up to be Hamas, etc" All garbage arguments.

So to answer your question: I do not defend Hamas at every opportunity. Rather, I try to speak the truth, even if it be against the Muslims. As Prophet Muhammad [s] said: "Speak the truth even if it be against yourself." This is a dictum I try to follow. So when Hamas or the Palestinians are at fault for something, I say it, instead of whitewashing it or brushing it under the carpet.

As for the article you quoted, if it is true, then it is wrong. But what should be kept in mind--to be just--is that Hamas is well-known for its reliability in giving out food and supplies to the needy. Their leaders are known for their asceticism. The aid agencies know that if they give the aid to the PLO leaders, the PLO leaders--who are highly corrupt officials--will eat up the wealth of the poor, without remorse. This is not the case for Hamas. So one would think that even if the article is true, then it would mean that they didn't like how the supplies were given to their opponents. Regardless, the action is wrong, because we Muslims are instructed to protect the wealth and property of Non-Muslims; stealing it is not permissible.

The *only* way I differ with most people on this forum with regards to Hamas is that I do not consider them to be the evilest people on earth, or villains. I believe that they are freedom fighters, but like other freedom fighting movements, they have gone to excess and extremism, much like the IRA, Tamil Tigers, etc. did. So instead of saying that they MUST be destroyed off the face of the earth, I say that they deserve a chance to return to the path of righteousness; if they do that, then we accept them. If they do not, then we will oppose them. Since coming to power, they have already become more moderate, and if Israel/America/Europe worked with them, they would become even more moderate. If they are ostracized from the political process, however, they will become more extreme and I do not want that.

People have this conception that since Hamas has engaged in terrorism, we should just destroy them from the earth. Well, I'd be ok with that, so long as you also say the same thing about the entire IDF, which was founded by a terrorist organization, namely the Haganah and elements of the Stern Gang, Lehi, Irgun, etc. These were terrorist groups that blew up buildings, killed innocent people, etc. If you say "well, they changed" (even though they didn't), then I say: "then give a chance for Hamas to change as well." 

Anyways, I'm blabbering now. I'll stop.

----------


## *RAGE*

> Peace be unto you, *GST528i*.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not always defended Hamas.  *So you are defending Hamas now?*Rather, I have criticized them and even debated with their staunchest of supporters, who justify and whitewash everything they do. For example, I believe that suicide bombing is completely forbidden in Islam, even if done against purely military targets. I also oppose the rocket attacks. *this is a good thing...suicide boomer dont normally target military, but the interior power*
> 
> You have to understand that in the same way that the pro-Israeli members on this forum *I am sure this is directed at me but you are wrong I am not a pro israel, but i think Israel should be able to defiend it self..*will defend *every* action of Israel by making up justifications,*you are the one making justification whey they should not defend themselves..(you like pointing the finger at others never at youself..* you have the same thing going on with Hamas supporters. So you will listen to their arguments, and they sound so amazingly similar. *true* For example, Hamas supporters say that the rocket attacks are justified because Hamas does *not* target civilians; rather, they point their rockets in the general direction of Israel and since their rockets are so rudimentary, they end up landing anywhere, which is "out of the control" of Hamas. In other words, they lack the capability to aim at purely military targets; otherwise they would.*again you cant say this because you dont know buff*
> 
> The above is the explanation given by Hamas itself and the die-hard supporters of Hamas. It is similar to the reasoning of Israel: "we had to fire the missiles into that school, because Hamas militants were nearby." *they did not say they were nearby but hidding in the schools* But I reject Israel's logic just as I reject Hamas's logic. *good*What I say is that we should not simply be looking for legal cover; rather, we as human beings should have moral consciences and soft hearts. Regardless of the legal justifications for attacks, we should say to ourselves: 'hey, do I really want to kill all these innocent people?' *no one is looking at killing innocent people*
> ...


good post buff I did not see it all you way but for the most part it looked good and yes I think you were honest.......Just for the record I am not pro israel supporter.......

----------


## amcon

i heard some news today... didnt catch it all but hamas got their hand slapped for doing something - any one hear any thing? i caught the tail end

----------


## BuffedGuy

> i heard some news today... didnt catch it all but hamas got their hand slapped for doing something - any one hear any thing? i caught the tail end


You are talking about how Israel has more UN resolutions issued against it than any other country on earth, right? Yeah, pretty crazy. But we only invade Muslim countries--not Jewish ones--when they violate UN resolutions.

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

Slay The Homeless

----------


## *RAGE*

> You are talking about how Israel has more UN resolutions issued against it than any other country on earth, right? Yeah, pretty crazy. But we only invade Muslim countries--not Jewish ones--when they violate UN resolutions.


I noticed you can make other post here...keep that side of you up because this is getting old...Jews suck,,,,Jews are mean hate full POS...jews are killing people for nothing.....Jews are steeling our land.....jews are the new germany......Hilter dont have shit.....on the Jews.....My people are dying because the Jews are lying..to the world....the Jews are using white phosphours.......the Jews are targeting schools, hospitals,,,,,and innocent people walking down the street....Jews have no reason to do this......

Palastinian to include Hamsa...are good...and peace full people.....



Let not forget........the sorry ass American are giving all the money to the Jews so they can do this....and the UN is standing by while all this is happening.....God I feel like shit....

----------


## amcon

> I noticed you can make other post here...keep that side of you up because this is getting old...Jews suck,,,,Jews are mean hate full POS...jews are killing people for nothing.....Jews are steeling our land.....jews are the new germany......Hilter dont have shit.....on the Jews.....My people are dying because the Jews are lying..to the world....the Jews are using white phosphours.......the Jews are targeting schools, hospitals,,,,,and innocent people walking down the street....Jews have no reason to do this......
> 
> Palastinian to include Hamsa...are good...and peace full people.....
> 
> 
> 
> Let not forget........the sorry ass American are giving all the money to the Jews so they can do this....and the UN is standing by while all this is happening.....God I feel like shit....


who is that in the pics? dumb ass burned him self up !!!

----------


## amcon

they cant feed their people but they can bribe people? or do they just have big wallets?

*CAIRO – Hamas negotiators left Egypt without a long-term cease-fire with Israel on Thursday — but not before some members of the militant group's delegation were stopped at the Gaza border carrying millions in cash.

The delegation walked away from the cease-fire talks because of disagreements over the blockage on Gaza and border security. Talks will continue at a later date.*


look im not hating just bringing to light what is going on...

----------


## amcon

they cant feed their people but they can bribe people? or do they just have big wallets?

*CAIRO – Hamas negotiators left Egypt without a long-term cease-fire with Israel on Thursday — but not before some members of the militant group's delegation were stopped at the Gaza border carrying millions in cash.

The delegation walked away from the cease-fire talks because of disagreements over the blockage on Gaza and border security. Talks will continue at a later date. authorities found $7 million and 2 million euros ($2.5 million) in cash in their suitcases.*

*....Hamas has smuggled money into Gaza before. In 2006, a senior Hamas official bragged about successfully carrying $42 million across the border.* 

THATS A LOT OF 10 CENT ROCKETS !!!


look im not hating just bringing to light what is going on...

----------


## amcon

this has come up before in these threads: 

i now better understand why this is done and i agree with it... i wouldnt want terrorists able to move freely around in our country as well(hamas):

*Hamas demands that any truce include the full opening of borders into Gaza, which Israel and Egypt have largely kept sealed since Hamas seized control of the territory from Palestinian rivals Fatah in 2007. Hamas also wants a role in administering the border crossings in recognition of its power in Gaza.*

so what was Nasr's reply to this?

*Nasr said smuggling would only stop if the borders were open.*

of coarse it would stop!!!! they would just truck it in!!!! then stock pile amo against every one else.... THEY ARE TERRORISTS

----------


## *RAGE*

well said again Amcon......

----------


## *RAGE*

> who is that in the pics? dumb ass burned him self up !!!


Maybe gods way of say hey dumb ass...dont play with fire...

----------


## amcon

> Maybe gods way of say hey dumb ass...dont play with fire...


well, my mom raised me not too !!! so i dont go around burning flags of countries that can kick my butt... know what i mean???

----------


## *RAGE*

> well, my mom raised me not too !!! so i dont go around burning flags of countries that can kick my butt... know what i mean???


I sure do bro....and if I was getting my ass kicked I would not come to a steroid site and cry about it.....

----------


## *RAGE*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdznv9Q6o9s

----------


## BuffedGuy

> I noticed you can make other post here...keep that side of you up because this is getting old...Jews suck,,,,Jews are mean hate full POS...jews are killing people for nothing.....Jews are steeling our land.....jews are the new germany......Hilter dont have shit.....on the Jews.....My people are dying because the Jews are lying..to the world....the Jews are using white phosphours.......the Jews are targeting schools, hospitals,,,,,and innocent people walking down the street....Jews have no reason to do this......


Ummm...I've never said any of this. I guess this is your disingenuous attempt at labeling anyone who dares criticize Israel to be anti-Jewish, a very favorite tactic of Zionists used to stifle criticism. Since you cannot prevail in a debate of words, you must resort to strawman arguments. Bravo!




> who is that in the pics? dumb ass burned him self up !!!


The picture looks incredibly fake...photoshopped. You can tell by the way the person holding the flag looks, and in the first pic why is his hand already in the fire!? The second picture looks ok, but there's suddenly no flag in it.

In any case, what does this have anything to do with anything?




> they cant feed their people but they can bribe people? or do they just have big wallets?
> 
> *CAIRO – Hamas negotiators left Egypt without a long-term cease-fire with Israel on Thursday — but not before some members of the militant group's delegation were stopped at the Gaza border carrying millions in cash.
> 
> The delegation walked away from the cease-fire talks because of disagreements over the blockage on Gaza and border security. Talks will continue at a later date.*
> 
> 
> *look im not hating* just bringing to light what is going on...


As a general rule, whenever a person has to always preface whatever he says with "I'm not hating" or "I don't mean to be racist, but..." then usually whatever he says after that (or before that in this case) is usually almost always exactly that. Just saying you're not being a thing doesn't mean you are not being that thing! It's not simply a matter of saying it! For example, I've seen "I don't mean to offend..." followed up almost always with offensive words. Nobody uses that phraseology for anything else other than offending someone.

As for what you wrote, where did you get the idea that Hamas was bribing anyone? I didn't get that from the copy and paste you gave. In fact, I looked up the article and nothing of the sort was stated, so it seems to be your imagination again. 

Furthermore, the fact that Hamas leaders had millions of dollars doesn't prove squat. As the article itself said, the United States has applied pressure to prevent any bank from lending money directly to Hamas. Therefore, the government can only stay afloat by money which is given indirectly, i.e. cold-hard cash. This is because America has frozen Hamas's bank accounts, and made sure that not even Arab banks can transfer money to them. It is yet another tactic by America to increase the imbalance between Israel and Palestine, giving the former not only billions of dollars but even preventing the latter from getting *any* money from *anyone.*




> this has come up before in these threads: 
> 
> i now better understand why this is done and i agree with it... i wouldnt want terrorists able to move freely around in our country as well(hamas):


Of course you better understand the issue, since *any* explanation given to you--that bashes Palestinians or Muslims--is a great proof for you!




> *Hamas demands that any truce include the full opening of borders into Gaza, which Israel and Egypt have largely kept sealed since Hamas seized control of the territory from Palestinian rivals Fatah in 2007. Hamas also wants a role in administering the border crossings in recognition of its power in Gaza.*
> 
> so what was Nasr's reply to this?
> 
> *Nasr said smuggling would only stop if the borders were open.*
> 
> of coarse it would stop!!!! they would just truck it in!!!! then stock pile amo against every one else.... THEY ARE TERRORISTS


First off, before the late 1980s, there was no such thing as Hamas. For decades, the Palestinians were led by the PLO, *which calls for a secular and democratic state.* And yet we find that the Palestinian borders were closed off by Israel back then as well. In fact, you can go back as far as you want, and Israel has been closing off borders. So this idea that Israel closed off the borders because of Hamas's terrorist activities is a case of placing the carriage before the horse: it is anachronistic. 

Second off, on numerous occasions, you have defended Israel's "right to defend herself." You are also OK with America giving billions of dollars in military aid, weapons transfers, etc. So why is it--according to you--OK for Israel to harm herself, but not the Palestinian people? If and when the Palestinian state is created finally, she should have the exact same rights to arm herself as Israel.




> well, my mom raised me not too !!! so i dont go around burning flags of countries that can kick my butt... know what i mean???


So your mom raised you such that you treat people who can harm you in a different way than people who _you_ can harm? In other words, your great moral compass tells you that it is OK form someone to burn a flag, so long as it is the flag of a weaker country, like say the Palestinian flag, the Iraqi flag, etc. But--according to you--your mom raised you with enough values to know that it's ok to do all that, but just don't burn the flag of powerful countries like America, or Israel, etc. Did I understand that correctly?

Did your mom also raise you in such a way to justify people who urinate on Qurans and flush them down the toilet? Do you have such an emotional reaction to that as you do over someone burning the American flag? 




> I sure do bro....and if I was getting my ass kicked I would not come to a steroid site and cry about it.....


May God give me the strength to restrain my tongue from retaliating. Peace be unto you!

----------


## BuffedGuy

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdznv9Q6o9s


Translation: the price of freedom is to take away freedom.

----------


## *RAGE*

Ummm...I've never said any of this. I guess this is your disingenuous attempt at labeling anyone who dares criticize Israel to be anti-Jewish, a very favorite tactic of Zionists used to stifle criticism. Since you cannot prevail in a debate of words, you must resort to strawman arguments. Bravo!



I dont think I have lost on a debate of words..because you just keep trying to justify what your people are doing..you are the one that would not respond to the last post but just stared typing hitting the keyboard and would not respond back...buff it is not hard to tell what is going on here....you are sad little man and want poeple to feel sorry for you..and that is it.....you do not have the balls to stand up for what you believe in the real world so you take it to the net..and cry there....(words cut deaper then the sord) bullshitt and that has been proven by 90 precent of the thread you started.......I am not a Jew but am sick your bullshit you are putting out there....

----------


## *RAGE*

> Translation: the price of freedom is to take away freedom.


No what that is saying the price of freedom is getting off the computer and do something about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but you will never do that....because it is much safe to cry on a steroid site..

----------


## *RAGE*

CRY cry cry (wait is someone listening to me).....cry cry

----------


## *RAGE*

> Translation: the price of freedom is to take away freedom.


Translation of a corward

----------


## *RAGE*

May God give me the strength to restrain my tongue from retaliating. Peace be unto you! 



you have your own GOD.....must be nice....but I dont think that is how it works...I believe it is all our god....not just yours......unless you dont believe in the sameone...

----------


## *RAGE*

I would love to keep this going but will have to pick it up in the morning...

if buffedguys god let me....wtf....ever

----------


## BuffedGuy

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you must be having a bad day. Whatever it is, may God guide both you and I to all that which is right. The power to soften and reconcile the hearts is with God alone. Forgive me for my many faults. Take care, and have a good night.

----------


## amcon

the other comments are where we differ, i dont believe one side is worse than the other... both are wrong - for what it is worth i believe (i have not backed this up biblically 1000%) the jews will be crushed and persicuted again ... and at that time the israel will be judged. 
*
[your qoute] "So your mom raised you such that you treat people who can harm you in a different way than people who you can harm? In other words, your great moral compass tells you that it is OK form someone to burn a flag, so long as it is the flag of a weaker country, like say the Palestinian flag, the Iraqi flag, etc. But--according to you--your mom raised you with enough values to know that it's ok to do all that, but just don't burn the flag of powerful countries like America, or Israel, etc. Did I understand that correctly?

Did your mom also raise you in such a way to justify people who urinate on Qurans and flush them down the toilet? Do you have such an emotional reaction to that as you do over someone burning the American flag? "*

i was not raised a bully, i think you may have understood my point, however the emotions are running high... i will carify - if any country was superessing me and my country (canada supressing costa rica for example) i wouldnt throw gas on the fire by burnging canada's flag... so to be clear - i dont believe in bulling - it is the same as terriorism, sort of. . . what would i do? become a politician and go and do every thing i could to make change - what i wouldnt do it burn flags, smuggle money, allow terriorists to run my country, die for what i believe in... in essence that is what i do as a christian - and you as a musilim do every day... we fight the most peacefull way we can and make sense of things that are unsensical.

----------


## amcon

as for a bribe - that would be an educated guess - not far off base im sure

as for any comment of hamas and money we have debated it out several times - rockets cost money, 10 cents or 10,000 dollars - gaza can not get the food and supplies they need (several people have stated that on these threads) yet hamas can smuggle in weapons and smuggle out money to other countries??? that from pro israel or pro hamas - does not compute !!! save the money and stop fighting israel - feed the people, beg the usa and beg england and beg the un to sanction israel!!! put video (not propaganda on you tube) - "LIKE SAVE GAZA" the same way they say "save the whales" or "SAVE NAPAL" ...

... WHAT WE KNOW DOESNT WORK IT WHAT IS TAKING PLACE NOW - INSANITY

----------


## Matt

This thread needs some lovin.....

----------


## amcon

> I noticed you can make other post here...keep that side of you up because this is getting old...Jews suck,,,,Jews are mean hate full POS...jews are killing people for nothing.....Jews are steeling our land.....jews are the new germany......Hilter dont have shit.....on the Jews.....My people are dying because the Jews are lying..to the world....the Jews are using white phosphours.......the Jews are targeting schools, hospitals,,,,,and innocent people walking down the street....Jews have no reason to do this......
> 
> Palastinian to include Hamsa...are good...and peace full people.....
> 
> 
> 
> Let not forget........the sorry ass American are giving all the money to the Jews so they can do this....and the UN is standing by while all this is happening.....God I feel like shit....


if this is a photo shopped pic (i believe it is real) it i a fair representation of what happens around the world in regaurds to the usa - yet we are the first to be called for help

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

terrorist need to die

----------


## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *Amcon*.




> the other comments are where we differ, i dont believe one side is worse than the other... both are wrong


Would you say that in the conflict in the 1800s between American settlers and the Native Americans that "both sides were equally wrong"? Or would you--like most reasonable people--agree that a greater share of the blame is on the colonial force? 




> however the emotions are running high... i will carify


I agree that the emotions are running high, and I apologize to you and *Prone2Rage* for my contribution to that. Let's all breath deeply and discuss calmly, God-Willing. Thank you Amcon for taking the lead in that.




> - if any country was superessing me and my country (canada supressing costa rica for example) i wouldnt throw gas on the fire by burnging canada's flag...


I do not believe in flag burning myself. I think that Denmark has a nice law with regards to this: Danish law allows their people to burn the Danish flag, but forbid the burning of any other country's flag. If I was the leader of a country--and if it were in my power--I would forbid the burning of flags, especially if the flag had any religious symbols on it, such as the Israeli flag which has the star of David on it. 

Nonetheless, the fact that I disagree with flag burning does not mean that I agree with anyone who automatically assumes that the guy in the picture must be a terrorist.

But I think the one thing that was very lacking in your post--despite the fact that you were trying to clarify your position--was your complete avoidance of the topic of American soldiers urinating on Qurans and flushing them down the toilet. Your silence on this issue really speaks to your bias.




> smuggle money


"Smuggling money" is just one way of wording it. The Palestinian money has been stolen by the American government (that is exactly what "freezing accounts" and "pressuring other banks not to lend" to them amounts to), and so they are simply bringing in money that is rightfully theirs. It's only "smuggling" because the oppressor forbids it. 

As for your opposition to this, do you also oppose Israel when they smuggle weapons and military equipment into their country:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-19664919.html

Do you also oppose America and Israel smuggling weapons as they did in the Iran-Contra Affair? Why all these double standards?

Do you oppose Israel sending spies to various countries of the world, including America?




> allow terriorists to run my country,


If you are going to paint such broad strokes, then one could easily--based on that logic--say that Israel is run by terrorists. Many of the prime ministers of Israel were a part of or connected to Zionist terrorist groups such as Haganah, Stern Gang, Lehi, etc. The IDF was itself a terrorist organization--called the Haganah. So your rhetoric that "Palestine is run by terrorists" is a double-standard of the worst nature.




> as for a bribe - that would be an educated guess - not far off base im sure


It doesn't even make sense. They received money from unnamed sources, which they were taking back to run their land. I don't see what bribery has anything to do with anything. But I think you will just continue to say things without proof as you usually do.




> if this is a photo shopped pic (i believe it is real) it i a fair representation of what happens around the world in regaurds to the usa - yet we are the first to be called for help


I think the more intelligent question would be to ask: why are American flags being burned the world over?

----------


## NightWolf

Buffed, why is it that when someone
does not agree with your opinon on
the palis, they have to be: a zionist, bigot or racist?
Why cant you just accept the fact that Hamas
are a piece of shit terrorist group? Dont belive me?
go watch one of the many videos i posted
were they wanted to kill all of Europe and America.

Also notice that when something is presented
against hamas, buff often says "i think this is fake"
or "even if this is true".

Hey buff, why dont you post any news about
all the christians that are getting slayed by muslims
in iraq? Ya the shiates muslims are on a killing rampage
over there. No im not talking about the US soldiers,
im talking about the christian iraqi citizens.
Well i guess since they are muslims its OK for
them to kill innocent people.

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

> Buffed, why is it that when someone
> does not agree with your opinon on
> the palis, they have to be: a zionist, bigot or racist?
> Why cant you just accept the fact that Hamas
> are a piece of shit terrorist group? Dont belive me?
> go watch one of the many videos i posted
> were they wanted to kill all of Europe and America.
> 
> Also notice that when something is presented
> ...



lol. Thank you!


death to hamas! and their terrorist babies 

but keep the women alive and send them my way  :Smilie:

----------


## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.




> Buffed, why is it that when someone
> does not agree with your opinon on
> the palis, they have to be: a zionist, bigot or racist?


It is not whenever anyone disagrees with me. Rather, the vast majority of people on this forum are open-minded and neutral people. There are, however, a handful of people here--the number of which I could count on my fingers--who are bigots. After interacting a lot with people on such topics, I can easily identify these types. Interestingly enough, the ones on this forum are obsessed with me, my posts, and my threads! Whenever I click on my "Ask a Muslim" thread, guess whose reading it? His name starts with N and ends with F. As brother Chariff told me, it burns up people like you that a Muslim can talk in cogent sentences and refutes all your arguments. It's burning you up inside; just admit it. You're stewing.




> Why cant you just accept the fact that Hamas
> are a piece of shit terrorist group? Dont belive me?
> go watch one of the many videos i posted
> were they wanted to kill all of Europe and America.


I've already responded to this. As for my view on Hamas, I've already clarified that plenty of times: I am 100% opposed to their tactics, condemn that, and call them to abandon such tactics. 

There have been Non-Muslims on this forum who have condemned Hamas, but I didn't mind at all because they also condemned Israel. This showed their balance and fairness, as opposed to bigotry and double-standards, which seems to be your modus operandi. So it's not that you condemn Hamas which bothers me; that doesn't bother me in the least. What bothers me is your silence about Israel. The entire problem in this world today is that people are defining the debate using huge double standards. I want to bring that wall down, and bring fairness in debate--and the same standards for all. If one thing is wrong for Muslims, it is wrong for Non-Muslims, and vice/versa.




> Hey buff, why dont you post any news about
> all the christians that are getting slayed by muslims
> in iraq? Ya the shiates muslims are on a killing rampage
> over there. No im not talking about the US soldiers,
> im talking about the christian iraqi citizens.
> Well i guess since they are muslims its OK for
> them to kill innocent people.


Killing non-combatant Christians is absolutely forbidden in my religion, and what is going on in Iraq against Christian citizens is atrocious. It is a grave violation of Islamic Law and flouts morality. In regards to why I haven't brought it up on this forum, it is simply because the criticisms I have of Muslims I give to Muslims on Islamic forums.  :Smilie:  I am often posting such articles, exposing extremists. The Shia death squads and Al-Qaeda groups are extremists that need to be refuted, humiliated, and exposed for what they are. These groups in Iraq are real, the problem is real, and it cannot be whitewashed or brushed under the carpet. I am not from those who would do that.

In any case, I've only posted on Palestine in the news section, simply because that is the hot topic in the news nowadays due to the invasion of Gaza. It is not like I am creating threads left and right about Muslim suffering in various parts of the world that you could say "well, why don't you ever talk about Christian suffering?" The fact is that I've only ever posted a thread about Palestine/Gaza, and that only because the Gaza invasion was front page news nowadays.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## amcon

> Peace be unto you, *Amcon*.
> 
> 
> *
> Would you say that in the conflict in the 1800s between American settlers and the Native Americans that "both sides were equally wrong"? Or would you--like most reasonable people--agree that a greater share of the blame is on the colonial force? horrible that it happened... now what i will say is not liked by many people but i do believe it is one way that it was allowed by God(and for every one who may argue that they dont like a God that would allow this... get saved go to heaven and bring it up with him - what i will say is not in the bible) the establishment of usa was by God fearing christians - wanting to leave the mother country for many reasons FAITH being one of them, opportunity being another, freedom being another... the american indians were a heathenous people in need of salvation - man screwed it up and took advantage of them... i could go on and on about this - i live in the north east in a place that is central to many tribes even to this day they were put in bad places and treated less than fair - now they have been restored some land and made that land in to casinos, money drives the local tribes to use less than indian morles to live at this point. all my personal opinion.*
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that the emotions are running high, and I apologize to you and *Prone2Rage* for my contribution to that. Let's all breath deeply and discuss calmly, God-Willing. Thank you Amcon for taking the lead in that.
> ...


*it is a know fact much of that money comes from the usa and paleistines that are sympethic to the cause... i have personally seen this - and i have personally been told from people locally that they have sent hundreds of thousands of dollars to the middle east to support their belifs (the gentelman was actually from yamen - and was arrested for donations to the us bombing there)*

i knew the lackawana (yes a very good indian name) six... al-quada spies that were implanted in the the usa to assimilate and then spread terror... they were a very respectful, clean, loyal to their religion(for lack of a better term) however, that was their goal. the street they lived on was very scarry how they had it set up!!! 



I think the more intelligent question would be to ask: why are American flags being burned the world over?[/QUOTE]

*because of hatred*

----------


## BuffedGuy

*Amcon*--for the love of God--please clean up your post and make it readable. I refuse to read it until then, lol. Just quote and unquote, then reply, then quote and unquote, then reply, etc. It makes it easier to read and also to reply. Thank you.

----------


## NightWolf

> Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.
> 
> 
> It is not whenever anyone disagrees with me. Rather, the vast majority of people on this forum are open-minded and neutral people. There are, however, a handful of people here--the number of which I could count on my fingers--who are bigots. After interacting a lot with people on such topics, I can easily identify these types. Interestingly enough, the ones on this forum are obsessed with me, my posts, and my threads! Whenever I click on my "Ask a Muslim" thread, guess whose reading it? His name starts with N and ends with F. As brother Chariff told me, it burns up people like you that a Muslim can talk in cogent sentences and refutes all your arguments. It's burning you up inside; just admit it. You're stewing..


*Dont flatter yourself, im not in any way
intrested in you or your threads, and still yet you
have NOT refuted anything from me.

You are indeed a muslim rasict and a lier.
You go around here and spread lies,
and often you end your replys by saying
"i hope i did not offend any xxxxxx"
Because thats just what you do,
you insult and offend but you do it
in a smart way because you are good with words.*





> I've already responded to this. As for my view on Hamas, I've already clarified that plenty of times: I am 100% opposed to their tactics, condemn that, and call them to abandon such tactics.


*This is all LIES, you have NOT 100% opposed their tactics,
you have NEVER posted a thread against hamas, rather when 
someone has posted something agsint them (hamas) you are 
the first one to reply and defend them, this is FACT.
Oh and lets not talk about all the anti israel threads
you have started. So stop the BS.*






> Killing non-combatant Christians is absolutely forbidden in my religion, and what is going on in Iraq against Christian citizens is atrocious. It is a grave violation of Islamic Law and flouts morality. In regards to why I haven't brought it up on this forum, it is simply because the criticisms I have of Muslims I give to Muslims on Islamic forums.  I am often posting such articles, exposing extremists. The Shia death squads and Al-Qaeda groups are extremists that need to be refuted, humiliated, and exposed for what they are. These groups in Iraq are real, the problem is real, and it cannot be whitewashed or brushed under the carpet. I am not from those who would do that.


*Here we go again 
Ya i have heard your BS about
the forbidden part, Still does not change
the fact that YOUR people are on a killing spree
on christians. So maybe you understand that
i dont have much empathy for such low life scums*.

----------


## BuffedGuy

> Dont flatter yourself, im not in any way
> intrested in you or your threads,


Then why do you read it so much? When I open my thread, it often shows your name at the bottom.  :Smilie: 




> and often you end your replys by saying
> "i hope i did not offend any xxxxxx"
> Because thats just what you do,
> you insult and offend but you do it
> in a smart way because you are good with words.


Listen, you raise a good point here. If you think I have said something offensive, then please let me know what it is, why it offended you, and then we can discuss it. For example, Derek did that once, and I didn't mind at all; it gave me a chance to clarify my stance on the issue. So again, if I say something offensive, let me know, God-Willing. It's important for us all to respect each others' sensitivities. It may be that I say something which offends you, and I should be cautious of that.




> This is all LIES, you have NOT 100% opposed their tactics,
> you have NEVER posted a thread against hamas,


Please read my posts in the Ask a Muslim thread in which I have posted a refutation of their tactics. I have also posted in other threads how their logic in lobbing rockets at Israel is incorrect. Like I said, I spend time refuting extremists, just like I refute Zionists, Orientalists, etc. Since there are no Muslim extremists that I know of on this forum, I do not know what benefit opening up threads refuting them would do. However, I *have* posted refutations of them in my thread.




> rather when 
> someone has posted something agsint them (hamas) you are 
> the first one to reply and defend them, this is FACT.


I try my utmost to speak the truth. If I fail, then the fault is mine; if I succeed, then all praise is due to God alone.




> Oh and lets not talk about all the anti israel threads
> you have started. So stop the BS.


I don't think I ever denied that I opened up threads against Israel. Like I told you, I've only ever opened up threads in the news section about one topic, which is Palestine.




> Here we go again 
> Ya i have heard your BS about
> the forbidden part, Still does not change
> the fact that YOUR people are on a killing spree
> on christians. So maybe you understand that
> i dont have much empathy for such low life scums[/B].


You see, I don't adhere to your type of mentality, which is unfortunately the way that both groups--the ardent Zionists/Neo-Cons and the extremist Muslims--think. Reducing this all down to two teams--"Oh look what your team just did!"--is a dangerous thing. Rather, we need to understand that neither Christiandom nor the Islamic world is homogeneous. Let us judge people by the works their own two hands do wright, not what may be done by their co-religionists wherever they may be on this earth.

I have no problem with you thinking that the Iranian-backed Shi'ite militia death squads or the Al-Qaeda extremists are scum-bags. I also think this. I just ask you to be fair and judge all people based on the same standard.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## amcon

buffed every thing you do / say is against israel... as for my post just read the multi greens stuff...

and wolf nailed you on the "dont mean to offend..." brother you stated that to me...

----------


## BuffedGuy

> buffed every thing you do / say is against israel...


Is everything I say/do against Israel? No. Am I strongly opposed to Israel? Yes. It is a colonial entity occupying Palestinian land.




> as for my post just read the multi greens stuff...


Please just use the quote system and proper nettiquette. It will make discussion much easier. 




> and wolf nailed you on the "dont mean to offend..." brother you stated that to me...


I concede that I have used that phrase before. I am not going to defend myself. I'll just say that whenever I do end up offending any of you, please let me know so I can either clarify myself, or--if what I think is still offensive--that I could correct myself or respect your sensitivities.

----------


## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.

I have thought about some of what you have said and reflected upon the matter. I am looking to improve myself and correct my faults and shortcomings. After thinking on it, I have come to the conclusion that I have used the term "bigot" too freely on this forum. From now on, I will not do that. Rather, even when I think that someone might be nearing bigotry, I will simply say "beware of bigotry, my friend", instead of "you are a bigot." And there is a monumental difference between the two phrases, in that the first is an admonition, whereas the latter is a condemnation. 

Thank you for your valuable input. 

May God unite our hearts upon all that which is the truth.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## NightWolf

> Then why do you read it so much? When I open my thread, it often shows your name at the bottom.


*I am not saying that i have never
checked on your thread, but not many times
and far from much.

Something that bothers me with your thread
is that your very often speak about christians
and not as an opinon but as a fact, you
have yourself said that you dont know to much
about christianity, so then why not try to spread
your lies without draging christians into it?*







> Please read my posts in the Ask a Muslim thread in which I have posted a refutation of their tactics. I have also posted in other threads how their logic in lobbing rockets at Israel is incorrect. Like I said, I spend time refuting extremists, just like I refute Zionists, Orientalists, etc. Since there are no Muslim extremists that I know of on this forum, I do not know what benefit opening up threads refuting them would do. However, I *have* posted refutations of them in my thread.


*Sure you have said that you dont agree with some of
hamas ways of doing things BUT in the same time and
on the same object you still have defended them
AND brought up something about the israels*.





> I try my utmost to speak the truth. If I fail, then the fault is mine; if I succeed, then all praise is due to God alone.


*Sure you do, the one sided truth* 






> I don't think I ever denied that I opened up threads against Israel.


*I never said you denied, i said that you still have not
opened one about hamas, when there is soooo many
to choose from. You saying in your thread that you
whould like hamas to change some of their tactics does
not count as a thread "against" hamas.*





> You see, I don't adhere to your type of mentality, which is unfortunately the way that both groups--the ardent Zionists/Neo-Cons and the extremist Muslims--think. Reducing this all down to two teams--"Oh look what your team just did!"--is a dangerous thing. Rather, we need to understand that neither Christiandom nor the Islamic world is homogeneous. Let us judge people by the works their own two hands do wright, not what may be done by their co-religionists wherever they may be on this earth.


Just read your last reply and decided to delte this.

----------


## BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.

I think there will be more harm than good if I respond to your post. Forgive me for my faults, and may God unite our hearts upon all that which is the truth. 

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

----------


## NightWolf

> Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.
> 
> I think there will be more harm than good if I respond to your post. Forgive me for my faults, and may God unite our hearts upon all that which is the truth. 
> 
> In the Care of the Lord,
> -Saladin.


No please do respond and bring out what is in
your heart, im sure its not very friendly
but no problems, i rather have someone
tell me there true feelings or opinon
then someone that comes with a fake
smile but screams hate from his heart.

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## BuffedGuy

> No please do respond and bring out what is in
> your heart, im sure its not very friendly
> but no problems, i rather have someone
> tell me there true feelings or opinon
> then someone that comes with a fake
> smile but screams hate from his heart.


Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.

My heart does not scream hatred for you. Rather, I merely think you have some misunderstandings and sincere misconceptions, that is all. If I had any anger towards you, then it was only a fleeting feeling from my ego; it has faded and cooled.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

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## NightWolf

> Peace be unto you, *NightWolf*.
> 
> My heart does not scream hatred for you. Rather, I merely think you have some misunderstandings and sincere misconceptions, that is all. If I had any anger towards you, then it was only a fleeting feeling from my ego; it has faded and cooled.
> 
> In the Care of the Lord,
> -Saladin.


Ok, fair enough.

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## Dinosaur

i thought this thread ended looooooong time ago.
this like bringing a dead person alive, you only ganna smell stink and dirt.

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## amcon

does any one smell anything in here?

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## xlxBigSexyxlx

> does any one smell anything in here?


I smell Hamas, and they stink!

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## Matt

Oh good God, didnt this thread die already...

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## amcon

ya i thought it was locked down long ago...

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