# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Sub-Q Test Injection starting today!

## bass

OK guys this evening will be my first SQ test shot, l like to know is there any other place i can administrate the shot besides belly fat? for example how about the butt fat, thigh fat, etc...?

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## steroid.com 1

bass, I have a hard to believing that you have butt and thigh fat :Smilie:  It's best advised to use stomach fat (stay away from belly button...not to close to the umbilicus and below umbilicus as there seems to be more veins to hit here), but can do other places like you mention as well where there is a fat pad. Remember, after the injection you will want to message the area to smooth out the "ball" of test so it spreads evenly under the skin.

BTW bass, if you do decide on your leg make sure it's your *quad*...ok? Very important distinction here. 

It will take a few seconds more to push the test through the smaller insulin pin but the pain is not even comparable to IM.

This may help: http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/patient_ed...epubs/subq.pdf

When drawing the Test into the insulin pin just insert the syringe into the vial and pull all the way back on the plunger...go for a cold one. When you come back the syringe will be full. 

Easy enough.

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## JohnnyVegas

I am interested.

Did I miss a thread where you talked about your decision to do this?

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## GotNoBlueMilk

I typically do subq in the thigh area, closer to the hip not down at the knee. The skin is thicker and a little looser there. When seated, I hit and area on the top, not outer or inner thigh. When I do subq, I look for anywhere I can see a vein close to the skin, and stick somewhere else.

I have only done HCG and peptides in stomach. So I can't comment on that suggestion. May be a great place, just never tried it for Test.

I have nothing else to offer that gdevine didn't cover.

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## bass

> bass, I have a hard to believing that you have butt and thigh fat It's best advised to use stomach fat (stay away from belly button...not to close to the umbilicus and below umbilicus as there seems to be more veins to hit here), but can do other places like you mention as well where there is a fat pad. Remember, after the injection you will want to message the area to smooth out the "ball" of test so it spreads evenly under the skin.
> 
> BTW bass, if you do decide on your leg make sure it's your *quad*...ok? Very important distinction here. 
> 
> It will take a few seconds more to push the test through the smaller insulin pin but the pain is not even comparable to IM.
> 
> This may help: http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/patient_ed...epubs/subq.pdf
> 
> When drawing the Test into the insulin pin just insert the syringe into the vial and pull all the way back on the plunger...go for a cold one. When you come back the syringe will be full. 
> ...


Awesome! thanks GD!

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## bass

> I am interested.
> 
> Did I miss a thread where you talked about your decision to do this?


well doctors today are suggesting it and GDevine did post a great post and thats why i want to try it!

here is the link!

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...56#post5757556

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## Dpyle

Let me know how it goes for you Bass. I just had my follow up blood work pulled last night. I'm definitely interested in subQ. It would be nice not having to go in every week for my injection.

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## bass

> Let me know how it goes for you Bass. I just had my follow up blood work pulled last night. I'm definitely interested in subQ. It would be nice not having to go in every week for my injection.


will do.

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## HitIt

> When drawing the Test into the insulin pin just insert the syringe into the vial and pull all the way back on the plunger...go for a cold one. When you come back the syringe will be full.


I've never been able to accomplish this with either water or oil based preps as the depression (vacuum) created in the barrel of the syringe causes the plunger to go right back down where you began unless you hold it.

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## bass

> I've never been able to accomplish this with either water or oil based preps as the depression (vacuum) created in the barrel of the syringe causes the plunger to go right back down where you began unless you hold it.


GD was being sarcastic, basically hes saying its going to take a damn long time!

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## Vettester

My wife is on BHRT and administers .08mg of cyp, and 250mcg of B12 via Sub Q. It's a great way to go! I would also look at going that way, but there's no way I can wait that long.

Agree that it's best to keep it in the stomach area when going Sub Q.

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## flatscat

if you can get your compounding pharmacy to mix the test with e.o. it makes this process much easier, ( and a lot quicker)!

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## bass

> if you can get your compounding pharmacy to mix the test with e.o. it makes this process much easier, ( and a lot quicker)!


whats e.o.? mine is mixed with cotton oil, which is slightly thiner than sesame oil!

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## flatscat

ethyl oleate

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## jamotech

I was reading on another trt board last night about others doing subq test shots, the info was scary ignorant. I couldnt believe there wasn't anyone smart enough on the board to scold them. They were talking about back loading slin syringes, my experience with needles goes farther than most should, and I couldnt believe no one brought up the issue of sterility. Once you pull that plunger all the way out sterility is gone, I wanted to ask them which 2nd street crack whore junkie taught them this was a proper way to administer an injection. 

Good luck Bass, and im sure you'll be patient waiting for that test to draw in vs. back loading!! Why are you switching method, just need a change?

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## jamotech

just read GD's post, interesting reasons for switching methods, sounds like something to consider for the future.

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## steroid.com 1

> ethyl oleate


OT - But look who is red now. Congrats Flats :Smilie:

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## steroid.com 1

In its simplest terms; it's a viable option. If you want to inject just once a week and get a smoother metabolic uptake there's data to suggest SQ is the way to go versus IM. But there's so many other compelling reasons...one is not sticking long needles into muscle mass once or twice a week for the rest of their life...not discounting it's cheaper!

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## steroid.com 1

> GD was being sarcastic, basically hes saying its going to take a damn long time!


Probably should have said a few cold ones :Smilie:  It does take a bit more patience to load the pin...that's all.

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## THINKBIG

I tried it for 4 weeks. tried 1/2 cc for the first time and it was too much balled up and no matter how much I rubbed it it didnt go away. lol sounds like the morning wood to. I then did a 1/4 cc 2 days apart and it felt better still would get some weird shooting pains and I think I felt better just taking 1/2 cc every 5 days IM.

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## bass

did it and it was no problem! I'll do blood work to check for total and free T within 4 weeks or so to make sure its working the way it should. also started anavar today!

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## VegasRenegade

I have very ttle pain IM and doing SQ with Meliantan hurt like hell. Tell me how it is Cheeper.

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## steroid.com 1

> I have very ttle pain IM and doing SQ with Meliantan hurt like hell. Tell me how it is Cheeper.


Insulin pins in total are cheaper then buying syringes and two different sets of needles.

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## bass

second shot this morning and so far so good! much easier today, i believe last time i had fear of the unknown, but it was just as easy as hCG shot only took longer!

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## steroid.com 1

> second shot this morning and so far so good! much easier today, i believe last time i had fear of the unknown, but it was just as easy as hCG shot only took longer!


I'm really happy for you bass :Smilie:  

It really is easy, less painful then IM and better metabolic uptake IMO.

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## bass

> I'm really happy for you bass 
> 
> It really is easy, less painful then IM and better metabolic uptake IMO.


thanks for educating us on this GD! in 3-4 weeks i'll do testosterone total and free blood work and see how its doing! what i am happy about is i am on 100mgs a week and still feel great, in fact better than 200mgs!

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## steroid.com 1

> thanks for educating us on this GD! in 3-4 weeks i'll do testosterone total and free blood work and see how its doing! what i am happy about is i am on 100mgs a week and still feel great, in fact better than 200mgs!


More importantly bass, look at E2. The longer and smoother uptake via SQ will do more to keep steady and better E2 control with once a week SQ injections. 

That's a beauty of SQ, no need to do more then once a week.

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## bass

> More importantly bass, look at E2. The longer and smoother uptake via SQ will do more to keep steady and better E2 control with once a week SQ injections. 
> 
> That's a beauty of SQ, no need to do more then once a week.


that would be nice, but man it takes for ever to load the syringe as is with 50mgs, i can't imagine waiting 5 minutes to load 100mgs LOL!

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## --->>405<<---

> In its simplest terms; it's a viable option. * If you want to inject just once a week and get a smoother metabolic uptake there's data to suggest SQ is the way to go versus IM.* But there's so many other compelling reasons...one is not sticking long needles into muscle mass once or twice a week for the rest of their life...not discounting it's cheaper!


what do u mean by smoother metabolic uptake? and also do u think sub q would be a good way to go for a new guy?

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## steroid.com 1

> what do u mean by smoother metabolic uptake? and also do u think sub q would be a good way to go for a new guy?


This study:

According to convention if we inject oil-based anabolic androgenic steroids into the fat layer beneath the skin and above the muscle (subcutaneous) it will impair absorption and could delay dissapation of drugs for many weeks or months. New research conducted at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Canada at the endocrine clinic tested the viability of subcutaneous shots.

The study involved 22 patients who were using the clinic for testosterone replacement therapy. The anabolic androgenic steroids was testosterone enanthate . The subjects were instructed to self-administer their testosterone subcutaneously once per week. The same 1ml that would have been injected once every 2 weeks was divided up into .5ml weekly injections. Blood tests which were conducted periodically throughout the 1 year investigation were suprisingly and unquestionably consistent. For exactly 100% of patients enrolled, testosterone levels remained in the physiological (normal) range for the entire duration of the study. This included both peak and trough levels (high & low during each week). Furthermore injections were extremely well tolerated. Each patient took over 50 injections and not one single adverse reactionn was noticed at the injection site.

The investigation concluded that not only was subcutaneous testosterone enanthate a viable option as far as drug release , but it was safe, cheap and far more comfortable for their patients compared to intramuscular injections.


Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D. Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report. Saudi Med J. 2006;27(12):1843-6.

ABSTRACT

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients. METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study. Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported. *CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.*

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## frawnz

Definitely something I'm considering doing. I've done sub-q shots in my stomach with slin pins enough to know I'd much rather do that than keep jabbing my poor quads every week. My main issue is that I'd have to break it into two weekly shots of .75ml each week to maintain my current dosage. Might be worth trying though, especially since the long term scar tissue creation should be reduced significantly compared to IM.

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## --->>405<<---

thx GD..

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## dfwo

With the amount of belly fat I have, I might consider this too

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## bass

> With the amount of belly fat I have, I might consider this too


LOL, so what happens when we get all ripped and have no more belly fat?!

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## lovbyts

I tried this about 6 months ago, maybe more but I did 1cc the first time. It was to much. balled up, hurt for 2 weeks. I did 1/2 cc later and it seemed to go fine, no pain, no soreness and no balling up.

I think I will give this a try again soon also but I am changing things myself for a couple of months and going back to gel before my 4 months supply I have expires. Although test is test is test I may ask my doctor on my next visit to switch from Test E to Test C just because??

Keep us posted on how it works for you. BTW are you using Test C or E?

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## bass

> I tried this about 6 months ago, maybe more but I did 1cc the first time. It was to much. balled up, hurt for 2 weeks. I did 1/2 cc later and it seemed to go fine, no pain, no soreness and no balling up.
> 
> I think I will give this a try again soon also but I am changing things myself for a couple of months and going back to gel before my 4 months supply I have expires. Although test is test is test I may ask my doctor on my next visit to switch from Test E to Test C just because??
> 
> Keep us posted on how it works for you. BTW are you using Test C or E?


test C, but i heard test E is better, well i know its more expensive!

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## ecdysone

> LOL, so what happens when we get all ripped and have no more belly fat?!


Seriously, then you will be making an IM injection using a slin pin - works even better!

However, then you might want to use delts or thigh area.

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## --->>405<<---

whats a slin pin?

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## steroid.com 1

> Definitely something I'm considering doing. I've done sub-q shots in my stomach with slin pins enough to know I'd much rather do that than keep jabbing my poor quads every week. *My main issue is that I'd have to break it into two weekly shots of .75ml each week to maintain my current dosage*. Might be worth trying though, especially since the long term scar tissue creation should be reduced significantly compared to IM.


Frawnz - The whole point here with SQ injecitons is that you only need to inject once per week as opposed to twice a week IM. Test have shown that both Test and E2 levels did not go through the peak and valley cycles we see in some men with IM weekly. 

That's the biggest benefit of SQ.

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## flatscat

Ethly Oleate.... I keep telling you guys... what am I red for nothing????? lmao

ok so disclosure - a few people do have small reactions to EO, but for those that do they seem to lesson and go away over time.

smooth and goes really well with slin pins

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## dfwo

> LOL, so what happens when we get all ripped and have no more belly fat?!


I'll have a member of my harem inject me

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## steroid.com 1

> whats a slin pin?


Insulin Syringe

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## ecdysone

> Ethly Oleate.... I keep telling you guys... what am I red for nothing????? lmao
> 
> ok so disclosure - a few people do have small reactions to EO, but for those that do they seem to lesson and go away over time.
> 
> smooth and goes really well with slin pins


Any truth to the rumor that EO will dissolve the rubber on the syringe plunger - for those us who pre-load and then store them?

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## lovbyts

> Any truth to the rumor that EO will dissolve the rubber on the syringe plunger - for those us who pre-load and then store them?


I have heard that also and it's probably a good reason not to pre load but I'm not sure if it's true. Also, if it's true wouldn't it have the same effect on the rubber stopper on the vials? They may be a different type of rubber of course but???

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## flatscat

Never experience this problem with the vials.

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## GMAC10

> Frawnz - The whole point here with SQ injecitons is that you only need to inject once per week as opposed to twice a week IM. Test have shown that both Test and E2 levels did not go through the peak and valley cycles we see in some men with IM weekly.
> 
> That's the biggest benefit of SQ.


I am taking 200 mg every 5 days along with HCG ... You guys think I can inject sub Q with the test C... TRT experience 9 months.. Quads sore :Smilie: .. Thoughts?

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## GMAC10

I'm new here, 9 months of TRT, never any issues other than slightly sore quads. Currently injecting 200 mg every 5 days along w/HCG ...is sub Q a viable option ??? Seems like a crazy thick test C to push thru that small needle???

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## frawnz

> Frawnz - The whole point here with SQ injecitons is that you only need to inject once per week as opposed to twice a week IM. Test have shown that both Test and E2 levels did not go through the peak and valley cycles we see in some men with IM weekly. 
> 
> That's the biggest benefit of SQ.


I hear ya. The problem is that my weekly injection is 1.5 ml. A bit too much for sub-q, especially since people have mentioned that they're getting lumps with just 1 cc.

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## bass

> I hear ya. The problem is that my weekly injection is 1.5 ml. A bit too much for sub-q, especially since people have mentioned that they're getting lumps with just 1 cc.


well, i have a lump from my last injection i did on Sunday, little sore and hard lump, probably because i didn't massage enough, or simply because its a virgin area!

GDevine or anyone, do you think icing would help?

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## JD250

I don't inject my test sub Q so this may not mean anything but I have noticed that I've gotten the lump and even some slight bruising from HCG sub Q injections, what I finally figured out was that I was pinning at an angle, which is actually recomended by some, so I started pinching the skin up and pinning straight in at a 90 degree and making sure that I stick the 5/8 inch needle all the way in, maybe it's a fluke but I havent had that problem since, I wonder if the compound is too close too the skin or balled up just under the skin instead of down in the fat, I really don't know the answer, these are just observations that I've made about myself, hope it helps.

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## PetrX

Ok I'm confused here...I'm type 1 diabetic and my dr is going to put me on trt next month do to insulin lowering my test levels...I am a pro at sub q injections haha but if I did the sub q injections with the test , would I I get the same effect as an I'm injections??

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## yannick35

I was offered sub q myself by my medical doctor, but this is the last resort type of thing he also told me that some of the testosterone can get lost doing it this way. The best place to inject is in the glute, then the leg then the shoulder.

At least for me the quantity i am injecting is very low like 1cc every 7 days i really want this to do its max effect and not waste it

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## HitIt

> Ok I'm confused here...I'm type 1 diabetic and my dr is going to put me on trt next month do to insulin lowering my test levels...I am a pro at sub q injections haha but if I did the sub q injections with the test , would I I get the same effect as an I'm injections??


yes.

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## HitIt

> well, i have a lump from my last injection i did on Sunday, little sore and hard lump, probably because i didn't massage enough, or simply because its a virgin area!
> 
> GDevine or anyone, do you think icing would help?


i don;t massage my lumps...they are gone by the next injection time (every 3.5 days) and i just alternate between either side of the belly from the button to the hips

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## steroid.com 1

> I was offered sub q myself by my medical doctor, but this is the last resort type of thing *he also told me that some of the testosterone can get lost* doing it this way. The best place to inject is in the glute, then the leg then the shoulder.
> 
> At least for me the quantity i am injecting is very low like 1cc every 7 days i really want this to do its max effect and not waste it


LOL...please, can you tell me his rational for this statement?

SC injections are becoming more and more common and a viable safer injection protocol alternative for men.

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## steroid.com 1

[QUOTE=bass;5797930]well, i have a lump from my last injection i did on Sunday, little sore and hard lump, probably because i didn't massage enough, or simply because its a virgin area!

*GDevine or anyone, do you think icing would help?[/*QUOTE]

I don't see how icing can hurt bass. I massage both IM and SC injections for a good minute over the injection site either way I inject. I don't see the pooling very much with SC when I do that. 

Using two fingers; just a mild but somewhat firm massage smooths out the test in the tissues.

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## Fred40

I don't know why but I'm completely comfortable sticking with IM injections.

I have no problem with 1x a week and my numbers are great. A 27 gauge needle shot in the quad is virtually painless.

I guess "why mess with it?" would be my take.

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## bass

not for me, i tried my quads and it felt like a knife stab! hurts like hell. my gluts are no problem, reaching is a little uncomfortable like you said in the other thread! and there is nothing like SQ injections, very easy and painless, but if the lumps and sourness continue i will go back to IM.

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## yannick35

> LOL...please, can you tell me his rational for this statement?
> 
> SC injections are becoming more and more common and a viable safer injection protocol alternative for men.


I did not ask him to be honest. But tough it made sense because isn't testosterone suppose to be injected in a muscle?

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## bigboy67

> I did not ask him to be honest. But tough it made sense because isn't testosterone suppose to be injected in a muscle?


studies are showing that sub Q vs. IM produces approximately the same serum results, and that subQ may actually require less Test than IM

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## bass

well I'll be a testimony for this in 3 weeks from now, I'll be doing blood work to see how it worked!

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## JD250

I'll be watching and waiting Bass.

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## HitIt

> studies are showing that sub Q vs. IM produces approximately the same serum results, and that subQ may actually require less Test than IM


my blood work at 200mg/wk of test E subq was beyond the tested ranges of free and total test.

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## yannick35

> studies are showing that sub Q vs. IM produces approximately the same serum results, and that subQ may actually require less Test than IM


Ok i need to read more on this then, i do have a gut and wonder how i can sub Q? do i need to reach the abs or i just inject under the skin?

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## yannick35

> my blood work at 200mg/wk of test E subq was beyond the tested ranges of free and total test.


that is the dosage i am injecting myself. I am looking into this sub q injection right away, it will be a lot less painful. Not sure why my medical doctor told me to avoid this method, i have read on some forum that its not good either but maybe it was just people not knowing what they where talking about. This can be far less painful.

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## yannick35

> my blood work at 200mg/wk of test E subq was beyond the tested ranges of free and total test.


that is the dosage i am injecting myself. I am looking into this sub q injection right away, it will be a lot less painful. Not sure why my medical doctor told me to avoid this method, i have read on some forum that its not good either but maybe it was just people not knowing what they where talking about. This can be far less painful.

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## lvs

because it goes against what they have been taught and their unwillingness to continue learning. My endo acted like she had never heard of giving cyp injections subq and therefore won't allow it either.




> that is the dosage i am injecting myself. I am looking into this sub q injection right away, it will be a lot less painful. Not sure why my medical doctor told me to avoid this method, i have read on some forum that its not good either but maybe it was just people not knowing what they where talking about. This can be far less painful.

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## kelkel

> because it goes against what they have been taught and their unwillingness to continue learning. My endo acted like she had never heard of giving cyp injections subq and therefore won't allow it either.


Docs are people too and don't know it all. Sounds like she just did not like not having an answer, so she was dismissive of it. Common with doctors and TRT, unfortunately.

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## BigBadWolf

Does % of body fat play any role of sub-q injections? Like if your over a certain percent would it be less effective or harder for the test to be released into your system?

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## lvs

i get that they are people too, but if your profession is Endocrinolgy and part of your professional profile is TRT, then at least an "I will look into it for you" would be nice. We are paying them for a service and typically everyone wants to get what they are paying for.




> Docs are people too and don't know it all. Sounds like she just did not like not having an answer, so she was dismissive of it. Common with doctors and TRT, unfortunately.

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## yannick35

Can this be done with a 21 gauge?, in the stomach area, i copied the PDF file gdevine posted. I am ready to try this next week when my other 1cc of test is due.

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## Fred40

> Can this be done with a 21 gauge?, in the stomach area, i copied the PDF file gdevine posted. I am ready to try this next week when my other 1cc of test is due.


Uhhh.....hell and no. I mean.....I guess you can try but.....

One of the BIG benefits with SQ is that you can use a very short 30 gauge insulin needle.

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## bass

> Ok i need to read more on this then, i do have a gut and wonder how i can sub Q? do i need to reach the abs or i just inject under the skin?


no this need to be injected in the fat as you do hCG .

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## bass

my last Sunday SQ injection still sore and have a hard lump, if is doesn't go away by this Sunday i may go back to IM injections!

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## yannick35

I will try quad next time, i know that glute does not hurt but i sure feels inconfortable.

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## bass

a quick update, i will be getting a blood work order for next week Wednesday, doing simple tests mainly to see how the SQ injections is working. blood work will include,

1. total test
2. free test
3. rbc, wbc, hemo, etc...
4. liver and kidney functions
5. lipid panel
6. E2
7. DHEA (for the first time)

i'll keep you posted.

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## subnet

sounds good Bass! Quick Q - do you have any type of stinging when doing SubQ? The reason I ask is that I did it twice (Test C) and it stung like I was injecting acid - really strange. I have nothing like this while doing IM.

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## bass

no stinging at all, in fact i feel nothing while injecting, the only problem was getting sore and hard lump the next day and lasted for few days, but thats gone too, it only happened the first injection probably because it was a virgin area. i also massage the area for at least a minute after injection.

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## BigBadWolf

> no stinging at all, in fact i feel nothing while injecting, the only problem was getting sore and hard lump the next day and lasted for few days, but thats gone too, it only happened the first injection probably because it was a virgin area. i also massage the area for at least a minute after injection.


Your blood work will be a deciding factor if I try SQ or not. When do you think you'll have the results back?

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## bass

I'll be giving blood next Wednesday, so hopefully by next Friday or early the following week. I'll post it here as soon i i get it.

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## PetrX

I can't wait to see your results..I'm type 1 diabetic so I'm use to sub-q injections atleast 5-6 times a day so if it also works well with test than this will be a good route for me to go.

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## Mr Tick

How many cc are you injecting at one time per spot? Just wondering if that might be causing the bump. My doc also told me that I could try sub q if I wanted to. Today was only my second injection. I did one in my butt last week and one in the quad today. I dident have any issues and don't plan of trying the sub q. Only thing was my quad started to twitch a little while I still had the pin still in my leg. Felt a little weird but I dident have any issue with it. I just figured it was because of the virgin muscle. 

I'm really interested to see what ur labs show. My doc said he is thinking of trying to switch some of his other patients to this because of there issue with the im injections.

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## bass

> How many cc are you injecting at one time per spot? Just wondering if that might be causing the bump. My doc also told me that I could try sub q if I wanted to. Today was only my second injection. I did one in my butt last week and one in the quad today. I dident have any issues and don't plan of trying the sub q. Only thing was my quad started to twitch a little while I still had the pin still in my leg. Felt a little weird but I dident have any issue with it. I just figured it was because of the virgin muscle. 
> 
> I'm really interested to see what ur labs show. My doc said he is thinking of trying to switch some of his other patients to this because of there issue with the im injections.


60 mgs per shot. total of 120 per week. LOL, twitching! thats the beauty of SQ, no nerves and no veins to worry about!

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## bass

very disappointed guys! here is my blood work, my liver took a big hit from anavar and NSAIDs, and my lipid panel is shot! so i am stopping anavar and starting injectable Glutathione to cleanse my liver and hopefully get my lipid corrected. also was a little disappointed with my total T even though my free is at the top end, i expected my total to be around 700-800! so i will switch back to IM at the same dose 120 per week split and within 3 weeks i'll do similar blood work and see how everything looks! 

*CBC With Differential/Platelet*
WBC 4.7 x10E3/uL 4.0 − 10.5 01
RBC 5.45 x10E6/uL 4.10 − 5.60 01
Hemoglobin 16.2 g/dL 12.5 − 17.0 01
Hematocrit 49.0 % 36.0 − 50.0 01
MCV 90 fL 80 − 98 01
MCH 29.7 pg 27.0 − 34.0 01
MCHC 33.1 g/dL 32.0 − 36.0 01
RDW 14.3 % 11.7 − 15.0 01
Platelets 205 x10E3/uL 140 − 415 01
Neutrophils 58 % 40 − 74 01
Lymphs 33 % 14 − 46 01
Monocytes 7 % 4 − 13 01
Eos 2 % 0 − 7 01
Basos 0 % 0 − 3 01
Neutrophils (Absolute) 2.7 x10E3/uL 1.8 − 7.8 01
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.6 x10E3/uL 0.7 − 4.5 01
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.4 x10E3/uL 0.1 − 1.0 01
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 x10E3/uL 0.0 − 0.4 01
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0 − 0.2 01
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0 − 2 01
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0 − 0.1 01
SPACE
*Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)*
Glucose, Serum 84 mg/dL 65 − 99 01
BUN 19 mg/dL 6 − 24 01
*Creatinine, Serum 1.30 High* mg/dL 0.76 − 1.27 01
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 63 mL/min/1.73 >59
eGFR If Africn Am 73 mL/min/1.73 >59

BUN/Creatinine Ratio 15 9 − 20
Sodium, Serum 137 mmol/L 135 − 145 01
Potassium, Serum 4.6 mmol/L 3.5 − 5.2 01
Chloride, Serum 101 mmol/L 97 − 108 01
Carbon Dioxide, Total 25 mmol/L 20 − 32 01
Calcium, Serum 9.8 mg/dL 8.7 − 10.2 01
Protein, Total, Serum 6.8 g/dL 6.0 − 8.5 01
Albumin, Serum 4.1 g/dL 3.5 − 5.5 01
Globulin, Total 2.7 g/dL 1.5 − 4.5
A/G Ratio 1.5 1.1 − 2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.5 mg/dL 0.0 − 1.2 01
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 37 IU/L 25 − 150 01
*AST (SGOT) 48 High* IU/L 0 − 40 01
*ALT (SGPT) 71 High* IU/L 0 − 55 01
SPACE
*Lipid Panel With LDL/HDL Ratio*
*Cholesterol, Total 266 High* mg/dL 100 − 199 01
*Triglycerides 155 High* mg/dL 0 − 149 01
*HDL Cholesterol 21 Low* mg/dL >39 01
Comment 01
According to ATP−III Guidelines, HDL−C >59 mg/dL is considered a
negative risk factor for CHD.
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 31 mg/dL 5 − 40
*LDL Cholesterol Calc 214 High* mg/dL 0 − 99
*LDL/HDL Ratio 10.2 High* ratio units 0.0 − 3.6
SPACE
*Testosterone,Free and Total*
Testosterone , Serum 539 ng/dL 348 − 1197 01
*Free Testosterone(Direct) 24.9 High* pg/mL 7.2 − 24.0 02
SPACE
*DHEA, Serum*
353 ng/dL 31 − 701 02
*Estradiol* 31.5 pg/mL 7.6 − 42.6 01

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## steroid.com 1

bass - First, when did you take this pull relative to your injection and AI protocol?

1. Hematocrit 49.0 % 36.0 − 50.0 01 - Keep an eye on this...when was the last time you gave blood?
2. AST (SGOT) 48 High IU/L 0 − 40 01
ALT (SGPT) 71 High IU/L 0 − 55 01 - These are high and you why and what to do.
3. Lipids will probably correct when you stop the anavar .
4. Your Total Test is lower as a result of you lowering your weekly dosage bass. This is not a result of SQ injections. Increase your weekly dosage and this will elevate. But I can swear you stated you felt better at the lower weekly dosage levels. Remember, Total is much less important then Free and/or Bioavailable. 
5. E2 just a smidge elevated but nothing really to worry about.

Did you get:

SHBG
Progesterone
Cortisol

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## lvs

bass, did your liver enzymes increase when you ran var the previous time?

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## bass

> bass - First, when did you take this pull relative to your injection and AI protocol? *i gave blood 10 hours before my injection, and took AI the next morning.
> 
> *1. Hematocrit 49.0 % 36.0 − 50.0 01 - Keep an eye on this...when was the last time you gave blood? *about 6 weeks ago, i have an appointment to donate within 2 weeks.
> *2. AST (SGOT) 48 High IU/L 0 − 40 01
> ALT (SGPT) 71 High IU/L 0 − 55 01 - These are high and you why and what to do. *yes
> *3. Lipids will probably correct when you stop the anavar . *i am hoping!
> *4. Your Total Test is lower as a result of you lowering your weekly dosage bass. This is not a result of SQ injections. Increase your weekly dosage and this will elevate. But I can swear you stated you felt better at the lower weekly dosage levels. Remember, Total is much less important then Free and/or Bioavailable. *Yes i do feel better, not planing to increase the dose just the method of injecting. just curious if it makes a difference, if not then i'll go back to SQ which i prefer. just experimenting on this one.
> *5. E2 just a smidge elevated but nothing really to worry about. *yea i am fine with it, no symptoms to worry about.
> 
> ...


in bold!

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## bass

> bass, did your liver enzymes increase when you ran var the previous time?


yes but didn't go above normal.

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## lvs

same dose? anything else change in your protocol from that time to this one? How long had you been on it up to testing day?




> yes but didn't go above normal.

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## lvs

oops, double post!




> yes but didn't go above normal.

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## bass

> same dose? anything else change in your protocol from that time to this one? How long had you been on it up to testing day?


yea same dose, 50 mgs ed, the only thing changed is lower dose test and less AI, last time i was on 200 mgs test and 2.5 mgs AI ew. both times i was on var for about 4-5 weeks. i just got a fragile liver, really sucks!

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## kelkel

Bass, donate double reds this time. Dump a lot more iron out.

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## bass

> Bass, donate double reds this time. Dump a lot more iron out.


not sure if they do that at the Mobil location, but will ask them, Thanks!

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## kelkel

You mean you don't have that technology in "your bathroom"???

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## bass

> You mean you don't have that technology in "your bathroom"???


LOL, no i am not that sophisticated!

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## jamotech

Do you take milk thistle Bass? Im sure youve heard of it, just curious if youve been taking it already...

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## ecdysone

I'm thinking that var shouldn't have such a large effect on your LDL, like maybe screw it up by a third or so. I'm also pretty sure it has almost no effect on triglycerides.

Might want to consider diet??

Also, if your LDL typically runs a bit low, niacin can do wonders - it doubled my values the past couple years (altho some might be due to a better diet).

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## flatscat

I don't get this whole sub q thing guys. I mean I tried it - it just seems like it is too much trouble - by the time you draw and inject one shot, you could have done an IM injection, taken a shower and been dressed for work. I am glad you tried it Bass, but are you gonna stick with it?

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## steroid.com 1

> I don't get this whole sub q thing guys. I mean I tried it - it just seems like it is too much trouble - by the time you draw and inject one shot, you could have done an IM injection, taken a shower and been dressed for work. I am glad you tried it Bass, but are you gonna stick with it?


It's just an option Flats.

What the Canadian study found was that E2 appeared to be better managed when compared to IM using the same dosage...that and less pain makes it an option for some men.

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## ecdysone

> It's just an option Flats.
> 
> What the Canadian study found


Do you have a link to that study...thanks.

Oh, one thing I was going to mention to *bass*, and as a "new guy" here not sure if you'll talked about it: I go straight into the quads with a slim pin. As my BF is rather low in that area, the injection is probably a combination of IM/SQ. The technique is to just find an area on your body with very little fat and pressing against the skin by using the force you need to get the oil out of a narrow gauge needle, the depth of penetration is more than the 5/16+ inches. Also, if using small volumes (1/3 of a cc) it is critical to check for any leakage.

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## flatscat

I am not knocking it GD. But if one is pretty happy with IM and their E2 levels are okay - then it is just a preference I guess. Just don't want newbs to think this process is complicated - it isn't. It can be as simple OR as complicated as you want depending on the time you have to spend and your desire to drill down the the tiniest minutia with regards to protocols, substances and outcomes. 

But the simplest protocols are still better than no protocol....

I am glad I tried sub Q, I am glad Bass tried it. I am glad you are incorporating it into your protocol. To each his own. 

Peace out

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## bass

> Do you take milk thistle Bass? Im sure youve heard of it, just curious if youve been taking it already...


yes been taking it but not enough! so i'll up my dose.

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## bass

> Do you have a link to that study...thanks.
> 
> Oh, one thing I was going to mention to *bass*, and as a "new guy" here not sure if you'll talked about it: I go straight into the quads with a slim pin. As my BF is rather low in that area, the injection is probably a combination of IM/SQ. The technique is to just find an area on your body with very little fat and pressing against the skin by using the force you need to get the oil out of a narrow gauge needle, the depth of penetration is more than the 5/16+ inches. Also, if using small volumes (1/3 of a cc) it is critical to check for any leakage.


thanks for the info!

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## bass

> I am not knocking it GD. But if one is pretty happy with IM and their E2 levels are okay - then it is just a preference I guess. Just don't want newbs to think this process is complicated - it isn't. It can be as simple OR as complicated as you want depending on the time you have to spend and your desire to drill down the the tiniest minutia with regards to protocols, substances and outcomes. 
> 
> But the simplest protocols are still better than no protocol....
> 
> I am glad I tried sub Q, I am glad Bass tried it. I am glad you are incorporating it into your protocol. To each his own. 
> 
> Peace out


to be honest it doesn't take long at all to draw 60mgs. the easy part is i don't have to twist my body to reach my ass, not easy at my age! i was going to switch to IM just to see the difference, but since i'll be injecting Glutathione 3 times a week in my glute i'll stay with the SQ and experiment later.

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