# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS >  Most Common Beginners Cycles - Look here..

## MickeyKnox

*First and foremost, before you begin your cycle, please have a full blood panel done to determine your hormone values and to give you a baseline for you to gauge any changes before, during, and post cycle. A full Blood Panel that includes a sensitive Male Estrogen Assay is recommended.* (Thanks Kel)


Hey guys/gals, 

With all the recent new members and beginner cycle questions, I wanted to put together a short list of most commonly accepted cycles for beginners who have decided to introduce themselves to AAS. These cycle were made up with the newbie in mind and kept simple and uncomplicated. There are several ways to develop cycle with a variety of compounds, SERMS, AI's and hCG , however, I feel you will agree that these include the most common. This doesn't necessarily have to be a sticky, we can simply keep it bumped at the top if you like. 


"*So many reasons a test only cycle should come first.*

1. It is the bodies predominant naturally occurring hormone that will establish muscle mass.
2. Whether u start with it first cycle or not, it will become the base for 90% of all future cycles , and if u think that doesn't apply cause u only wanna do one cycle...i got news for ya- after that one cycle you WILL wanna do more!
3. You need to know the effects of test on your body throughout a cycle - that way when when you do stack other compounds with it you can get a true gauge or feeling for what they provide for you in terms of gains, sides, etc. Almost all other feelings you establish on different steroids will be based on their interaction and synergy with test. This will be your "baseline". Later you might explore how 2 or 3 compounds (maybe more) synergistically interact with one another. But you need an accurate baseline - test will provide that as it is probably the only compound that stacks well with virtually every steroid .
4. IT WORKS...WELL!
5. Straightforward, relatively easy pct
6. Relatively easy to control sides

Oh and did i mention it works..WELL!" (Thank you JimmyInkdUp)





*Most Common Beginners Cycles.*


*Option 1. Long Ester*

Wk 1-10 Testosterone Cypionate = 200mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-10 Arimidex .25mg EOD – monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk - day before test injection.

PCT 
Begins wk 13 to wk 17

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

**Note: If youre currently on TRT/HRT you skip PCT and simply return to your dosing protocol*


*Option 2. Long Ester*

Wk 1-12 Testosterone Enanthate = 250mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-12 Aromasin 12.5mg ED *MIN*- monitor and adjust accordingly. 
Wk 1-14.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk - day before test injection. 

PCT 
Begins wk 15 to wk 19

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

**Note: If youre currently on TRT/HRT you skip PCT and simply return to your dosing protocol*


*Option 3. Short Ester*

Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod. 
Wk 1-8 Aromasin 12.5mg ED *MIN* - monitor and adjust accordingly. 
Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day.

PCT 
Begins wk 9 to wk 13

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

**Note: If youre currently on TRT/HRT you skip PCT and simply return to your dosing protocol*


*Beginners Cycles + (with an Oral)*


*Option 1, Long Ester*

Wk 1-12 Testosterone Enanthate = 250mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-4 Dianabol (Dbol ) = 30mg/day *half life is 4-6hrs 
Wk 1-12 Aromasin 12.5mg ED *MIN* - monitor and adjust accordingly. 
Wk 1-14.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk - day before test injection. 

PCT 
Begins wk 15 to wk 19

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

**Note: If youre currently on TRT/HRT you skip PCT and simply return to your dosing protocol*


*Option 2. Short Ester*

Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod. 
Wk 3-8 Anavar = 60mg/day dosed 20mg every 8 hours. 
Wk 1-8 Aromasin 12.5mg ED *MIN*- monitor and adjust accordingly. 
Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection. 

PCT 
Begins wk 9 to wk 13 

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

**Note: If youre currently on TRT/HRT you skip PCT and simply return to your dosing protocol*


***All AAS cycles should include an AI, hCG, and PCT – no exceptions!*** 




Please read over these links to gain a fundamental understanding of why the above hCG, AAS, SERMS, and AI’s were chosen.


*The Young and Steroids*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...s#.UHBeIa7X_fs

*Cycles Gone Wrong for the Young*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...*#.UL2db2fX_fs

*Nutritional Forum*

http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...M#.UHNufa7X_fs

*Educational Threads*

http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...S#.TzgpVFF3k34

*Testosterone ONLY video. Please watch.* 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CPn_mQocv4

*Injection Techniques and Questions*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...e#.UMeFJazX_fs

**Aromasin (Exemestane) vs Arimidex (Anastrozole) Unraveled** 

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...nraveled*.html

**Esters and Half Life of Steroids - Oral and Depot** 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...*#.UTj3TDcUX0E

*Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t#.UJSEImfX_fs

*SERM, AI*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-AI-Definition

*hCG and Pregnenolone; What you should know.*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread....#.UJWP6mfX_fs

*Why HCG is So Important*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread....#.UIlhVWfX_ft

*Steroid Guide*

http://www.steroid.com/steroid_profiles.php

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## Chx beach 79

Looks perfect!

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## MuscleInk

What about a link to nutrition or reference to the subsection. Nothing happens before nutrition.

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## Chx beach 79

Great Stuff!

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## kronik420

bump

12 weeks of prop... thats alot of pinning lol

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## kronik420

and check your links mick  :Wink: 

the steroid guide 1 dont work

and the 1 under: Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT

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## MickeyKnox

> What about a link to nutrition or reference to the subsection. Nothing happens before nutrition.


Done




> I mean if on TRT then no PCT


Done




> Only one exception! TRT means no PCT





> bump
> 
> 12 weeks of prop... thats alot of pinning lol


That was suppose to read 8wks  :Frown: 

Thanks for the critique guys, keep them coming. If you spot something please let me know.  :Smilie:

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## MickeyKnox

> and check your links mick 
> 
> the steroid guide 1 dont work
> 
> and the 1 under: Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT


Fixed. Thanks!

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## kronik420

option 3 still has 12 weeks of prop lol

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## bigsiv

Long ester (with oral)
Just a note on the dianabol every 8 hours MickeyKnox ? Should that be spaced a bit better during the day? Presuming your awake for 14 hours it should be roughly every 3 1/2 hours.
Bump again good read

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## MickeyKnox

> Long ester (with oral)
> Just a note on the dianabol every 8 hours MickeyKnox ? Should that be spaced a bit better during the day? Presuming your awake for 14 hours it should be roughly every 3 1/2 hours.
> Bump again good read


Youre right. I was thinking Var. Thanks! 

My mind was like jello with all the PCT's, wks, and various esters and what not..lol

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## Sworder

Thanks Mickey!

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## SportbikerKid

I really don't see why you differentiate between test E and test C. Basically the same compound.

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## MickeyKnox

> I really don't see why you differentiate between test E and test C. Basically the same compound.


Good question.

I included both the common long esters because we get asked about them both. And often the reason is because the member can only acquire one or the other.  :Smilie:

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## MickeyKnox

> Thanks Mickey!


Thanks Sworder! (meaning, youre welcome..lol)

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## Buster Brown

Nice job!!!

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## MickeyKnox

Thanks for the vote of confidence BB!

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## bigsiv

Yeah good info MickeyKnox if only the newer members were as eager to sort their diets and training out as much as they are to stick chemicals inside them the battle would be won lol 
Still as long as yourself and the othe vets are willing to give up their time an educate the rest of us there's hope

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## kmms

i don't know if you can edit titles or not but putting "first cycle" in there would make it easier for search purposes. 

some people can't spell beginner and others might chafe at the thought of being considered one haha.

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## bigsiv

> i don't know if you can edit titles or not but putting "first cycle" in there would make it easier for search purposes.
> 
> some people can't spell beginner and others might chafe at the thought of being considered one haha.


Ha ha ha this is very true. It takes a lot to admit your a beginner like me couple if cycles under belt built still scratching the surface I'd AAS and BB

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## bigsiv

Wow that last bit didn't make sense typing too fast hope ya understood. Lol told you I'm a begginnerr lol

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## MickeyKnox

> Yeah good info MickeyKnox if only the newer members were as eager to sort their diets and training out as much as they are to stick chemicals inside them the battle would be won lol 
> Still as long as yourself and the othe vets are willing to give up their time an educate the rest of us there's hope


Thanks bro.




> i don't know if you can edit titles or not but putting "first cycle" in there would make it easier for search purposes. 
> 
> some people can't spell beginner and others might chafe at the thought of being considered one haha.


Unable to edit the actual thread title, but i'm hoping to keep this bumped.

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## bigsiv

Bump MickeyKnox bump

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## MickeyKnox

Ttt.

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## kelkel

Very nicely written MK. Forward thinking.

kel

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## kronik420

lol i dont think any new guys have read this, judging by the new threads that are being started...


bump

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## austinite

Good job Mickey. As usual.

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## EngineeredMayhem

Thanks for this, Mickey! (meager bump)

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## MickeyKnox

Thanks guys.

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## mikey hulk

Well done good info

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## Lunk1

Just a cpl thoughts from the cheap seats...up the prop dosage to 150mg EOD so that it falls more in line with the 500 mg EW protocal, switch to Adex on the prop cycle since it starts working right away, consider listing Tbol as an option vs. Dbol and winnie as an option vs Var...

Indeed another progressive and proactive post my Northern brotha from anotha mutha

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## MickeyKnox

> Just a cpl thoughts from the cheap seats...up the prop dosage to 150mg EOD so that it falls more in line with the 500 mg EW protocal, switch to Adex on the prop cycle since it starts working right away, consider listing Tbol as an option vs. Dbol and winnie as an option vs Var...
> 
> Indeed another progressive and proactive post my Northern brotha from anotha mutha


Always appreciate comments from my big Lunkster buddy from the south. 

I chose 100eod as a bit lower dose for the beginner. Although we preach, including myself, that 500 should be used for fist cycle, 350 does in fact work well with a proper diet. In fact, there are Vets on here who have use this protocol to achieve fantastic gains. The first cycle is test cvp @ 400. It doesn't always have to be 500mg dead on. 

The transparent truth is, I actual don't like Arimidex at all. It's hard on your lipids, and with its short half life works faster than Aromasin . This is not always a positive feature. Imho, i feel that long esters are more in line with the slower acting Aromasin. Did i mention dex is hard on your lipid panel?  :Wink:  

As far as Dbol vs Tbol Vs Winstrol vs Anavar ... tomato tomato bro. I chose the most *common* ones - hence the title to the thread and the third sentence. 

Who loves ya buddy!  :Smilie:

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## Lunk1

I will not argue your logic...I just prefer to make the first cycle the BEST cycle and while 500mg is not a MUST it a prefered jump off point for me. 

A agree also that I prefer Aro but in the case of the short estered cycle of prop I think Dex is the better option...otherwise yup Aro on longs for me 2!

I wish there was a way to replace the COMMONality of Dbol ...I ma so unimpressed by it!

Gracias again for the work you put in...it's never un-noticed!

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## MickeyKnox

Get over here so i can give a big man hug!

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## austinite

> Get over here so i can give a big man hug!


He is pretty hairy I hear. That would be a bear hug. 

OK, back on topic! I like the 100 EOD to start. Folks remember, you produce 50 to 70 mg natty, so 100 EOD is a massive difference and a great start.

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## Lunk1

Not hairy at all thank you...except for my aas  :Wink:

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## [email protected]

Good job there MK. Sticky maybe?

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## MickeyKnox

Thanks 600.

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## freddy1418

Bump STICKY good job MK

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## kronik420

B
u
m
p

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## KReyn

I'd doing my research for my first cycle and have a couple questions. How would test prop compare to test cyp or test e? Also my buddy told me it would be good to incorporate tren into my first cycle. Any thoughts on this? I'm new to this game and have a lot of reserarch to do and any input/advice is appreciated.

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## austinite

> I'd doing my research for my first cycle and have a couple questions. How would test prop compare to test cyp or test e? Also my buddy told me it would be good to incorporate tren into my first cycle. Any thoughts on this? I'm new to this game and have a lot of reserarch to do and any input/advice is appreciated.


Prop works much faster and has a much shorter life, hence the more frequent injections. Tren is not a good idea for a first cycle. It can be a very harsh compound and you need to see how your body reacts to test alone since it will be your base for all future cycles. 

You can acomplish your goal if done properly with an 8 week cycle of prop, where Test E or C could take up to 12 weeks to accomplish the same goal, but you don't have to pin as much. I prefer the longer ester.

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## songdog

Good job Bro :Smilie:

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## KReyn

> Prop works much faster and has a much shorter life, hence the more frequent injections. Tren is not a good idea for a first cycle. It can be a very harsh compound and you need to see how your body reacts to test alone since it will be your base for all future cycles. 
> 
> You can acomplish your goal if done properly with an 8 week cycle of prop, where Test E or C could take up to 12 weeks to accomplish the same goal, but you don't have to pin as much. I prefer the longer ester.


Thanks for the input. Do you just prefer the longer ester because there is less pinning? Or are there other pro's?

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## marcus300

I would much prefer to see the var start from day one on the short cycle example rather than week 2 especially when your using prop, no need to lag the var when the prop will be in there doing its job from week one..

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## austinite

> Thanks for the input. Do you just prefer the longer ester because there is less pinning? Or are there other pro's?


Less pinning and accommodates my schedule better. That and I've developed a great deal of patience over the years.

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## KReyn

> Less pinning and accommodates my schedule better. That and I've developed a great deal of patience over the years.


Cool, thanks again sir.

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## Gaspari1255

"**All AAS cycles should include an AI, hCG , and PCT  no exceptions!**" 



I obviously agree on PCT, but why are HCG and an AI 100% necessary? I think it's a good idea to have an AI on hand, but I don't see how you NEED it and don't understand why you would need HCG for such basic, non- 19nor cycles?

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## austinite

All you need to know is what happens to Testosterone once administered, then you will understand why you need an AI and HCG .

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## sgt2jay

i notice on option 2 you start hcg right away and pct the 1st week after last injection

I have read hcg starting week 2 and pct 2 weeks after last injection. have i read wrong or am i reading some out dated protocol. either way im and stocked to run either way and open to changing.

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## Lunk1

I keep refering to my previos cycles that I NEVER used an AI.. had it on hand but had gotten bad advice to only use it if gyn showed. I am not gyno prone (thank god) but on my last cycle I experienced high BP to the point of being hypertensive. I was also having a difficult time gaining and maintaining and erection. God only knows what other underlying issues I may have been experiencing.

Now...adding and AI to my cycle and NONE of thos problems exist. Ppl get too wrapped up in gyno and dismiss some of the other dangerous symptoms of high E2

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## KReyn

Is a long ester cycle better for a bulk, cut, or either or?

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## Lunk1

> Is a long ester cycle better for a bulk, cut, or either or?


Long ester vs short is a matter of preference based on a number of factors such as pinning schedule, time on or off cycle. (for example, I like to run 2 long ester cycles a year, but I could run 3 short estered instead). The end of the day it all the same stuff!

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## Brohim

> "**All AAS cycles should include an AI, hCG , and PCT – no exceptions!**" 
> 
> 
> 
> I obviously agree on PCT, but why are HCG and an AI 100% necessary? I think it's a good idea to have an AI on hand, but I don't see how you NEED it and don't understand why you would need HCG for such basic, non- 19nor cycles?



High E2 can cause bloating and BP issues which are very serious. Not to mention Estrogen is 200x more supressive than Test. This isn't an HRT dose of Test it's a cycle.

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## juggyk

great thread.. well explained

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## bigZthedestroyer

Nice Mick!

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## MickeyKnox

> Good job Bro





> great thread.. well explained





> Nice Mick!


Thanks guys! 




> i notice on option 2 you start hcg right away and pct the 1st week after last injection
> 
> I have read hcg starting week 2 and pct 2 weeks after last injection. have i read wrong or am i reading some out dated protocol. either way im and stocked to run either way and open to changing.


Beginning hCG at the first wk of a cycle is a widely accepted and proven protocol by the majority of those AAS users, and medical professionals, that include or recommend hCG on cycle. However, you *can* start it in the second, or even third, wk depending on the ester without any complications.

Also, hCG is best included on cycle up to 3-4 days before PCT. This is also widely accepted and proven to be the most effective way at administering hCG prior to commencing PCT. However, up to the first day of PCT will not complicate your PCT enough to create any significant complications or delays. 

My suggestions are based on universal best practices that will achieve the most desired results. 

Hope that clears up any confusion.

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## sgt2jay

clears it up hcg starts asap. i also see you have pct starting on week after last injection my last cycle which was my first i waited 2 weeks. 
i am assuming you recommend sart after one week which i will follow

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## MickeyKnox

> clears it up hcg starts asap. i also see *you have pct starting on week after last injection* my last cycle which was my first i waited 2 weeks. 
> i am assuming you recommend sart after one week which i will follow


PCT begins two wks after last testosterone enanthate injection, but 3-4 days after last hCG injection.

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## sgt2jay

thanks
i mis read

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## incipio

interesting, I started off with 400mg of test e a week with a kickstart of winny. so far it is going good.

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## GoldenSultanPrince

I have question, ok does it matter when we do it? I mean like say I go to the Gym 3 days in a Week and do full body workout, so I would just inject in those 3 days of the week for 11 or 12 weeks that I work out? I mean it would be pointless to do it other times when I am in University and not working out?

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## warmouth

:Asskiss:  Nice Sticky Mickey!

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## KReyn

Edit: sorry for the faux pas, I appreciate all the help.

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## incipio

> Just curious what would you say the average price (USD) range is for a long ester cycle?


depends on the brand kalpa test e is around 45, then balkin test e is 35, and that is per a vial 10ml. I guess it all depends on the quality of gear your getting.

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## banehallow

Nice post, very informative

 :Smilie:

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## >Good Luck<

Edit your posts, there is no talk of price round here!!

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## MickeyKnox

> I have question, ok does it matter when we do it? I mean like say I go to the Gym 3 days in a Week and do full body workout, so I would just inject in those 3 days of the week for 11 or 12 weeks that I work out? I mean it would be pointless to do it other times when I am in University and not working out?





> Nice Sticky Mickey!


[email protected]"Sticky Mickey." 




> Just curious xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx for a long ester cycle?


As GoodLuck has said, please edit your post to exclude you question about price. Discussing price about AAS is against the rules. Thank you.  :Smilie: 




> depends on the brand kalpa test e is around xx, then balkin test e is xx, and that is per a vial 10ml. I guess it all depends on the quality of gear your getting.


Same goes for you bro. Please edit your post to exclude price discussion. Thanks a lot.  :Smilie: 




> I've read here that long and short esters and practically the same and only depends on your schedule and preference but can someone inform us (the newbie) from a financial point of view? Will aiming for short ester cycle be more cost efficient since you only get that amount of steriods vs long esters?
> 
> I'm really interested in starting my doses but have a strict budget to how much goes where and appreciate anyone with knowledge of this.
> 
> Thank you!


Sorry to sound like a broken record, but once again, we don't discuss price or financial points of view on here regarding AAS. Sorry bro. Please edit your post. Thanks.  :Smilie: 

Long and short esters are not practically the same.

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## austinite

Mickey, I'm about to start my 1st cycle. can I _PM_ you questions? I don't want to say them in public.

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## kronik420

> Mickey, I'm about to start my 1st cycle. can I _PM_ you questions? I don't want to say them in public.


buy steroids dot com

go for the ultimate mass stack  :Wink:

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## MickeyKnox

> Mickey, I'm about to start my 1st cycle. can I _PM_ you questions? I don't want to say them in public.


I dont do source checks. 




> buy steroids dot com
> 
> go for the ultimate mass stack


Lol!

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## banehallow

> Sorry to sound like a broken record, but once again, we don't discuss price or financial points of view on here regarding AAS. Sorry bro. Please edit your post. Thanks. 
> 
> Long and short esters are not practically the same.


done, edited.  :Smilie:

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## Shsm

Very cool.

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## Lunk1

Now edit your quote Mickey Mouse lol. It still contains prices lol  :LOL:

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## MickeyKnox

> done, edited.


Thanks brother  :Smilie: 




> Now edit your quote Mickey Mouse lol. It still contains prices lol


Darn it, i thought i did that for both of them..thanks Lunk!

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## Trying-Hard

How do you guys split the PCT doses?

I start PCT tomorrow of Clomid (100/50/50/50) and Nolva (40/40/20/20). 

As far as week 1 goes.....

Should I take 100 clomid and 40 nolva all at once in the morning? Or do I split it into 50 clomid / 20 nolva in morning and 50 clomid / 20 nolva at night? Or does it not matter?

Thanks bros!

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## banehallow

> Long ester vs short is a matter of preference based on a number of factors such as pinning schedule, time on or off cycle. (for example, I like to run 2 long ester cycles a year, but I could run 3 short estered instead). The end of the day it all the same stuff!


what is the difference between the two esters?

-never mind got it here-

forums.steroid DOT com/showthread.php?311296-what-is-better-Long-ester-or-Short-Ester#.UJnkcrF5mc0

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## MickeyKnox

> How do you guys split the PCT doses?
> 
> I start PCT tomorrow of Clomid (100/50/50/50) and Nolva (40/40/20/20). 
> 
> As far as week 1 goes.....
> 
> Should I take 100 clomid and 40 nolva all at once in the morning? Or do I split it into 50 clomid / 20 nolva in morning and 50 clomid / 20 nolva at night? Or does it not matter?
> 
> Thanks bros!


I split them up, but some folks take them both at night.

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## KReyn

So in doing my research before my first cycle I decided to get some input from the head trainer at the gym. He competes in strongman comps and has been doing cycles since he was 18. He insists I only need to take test for my first cycle. He says an AI, HCG , and PCT are not necessary if I take the test cycle properly. Now I may be new to this game but from everything I read it seems like a good protocol to take an AI, HCG, and PCT (almost like an insurance policy). How valid is the advice I got?

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## Hydroponics

Wtf? How old ru? Maybe he thinks u can recover naturally or he wants u to learn a lesson...

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## HEVEW8

Great Post Micky!, SHOULD BE A STICKY!

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## KReyn

> Wtf? How old ru? Maybe he thinks u can recover naturally or he wants u to learn a lesson...


I'm 25, 26 in December. Thing is I have no reason not to trust him. He has coached me with my lifts before and is pretty good about helping out when I have questions. I think I'm still going to go AI,HCG , PCT route but why would he say that?

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## MickeyKnox

> Great Post Micky!, SHOULD BE A STICKY!


Thanks.  :Smilie:  




> So in doing my research before my first cycle I decided to get some input from the head trainer at the gym. He competes in strongman comps and has been doing cycles since he was 18. He insists I only need to take test for my first cycle. He says an AI, HCG, and PCT are not necessary if I take the test cycle properly. Now I may be new to this game but from everything I read it seems like a good protocol to take an AI, HCG, and PCT (almost like an insurance policy). How valid is the advice I got?





> I'm 25, 26 in December. Thing is I have no reason not to trust him. He has coached me with my lifts before and is pretty good about helping out when I have questions. I think I'm still going to go AI,HCG, PCT route but why would he say that?


Im confident your coach has many years of experience with weight resistance training and strongman training. However, he's lacking knowledge in terms of AAS and the associated accoutrements (AI's, SERM's, hCG ..ect) that are important to include with every AAS cycle. 

If you read the links i provided in the first post, you will gain a fundamental understanding of the importance of including these compounds, and why. If you have already, then you understand that an AI does a lot more than prevent bloat and acne. There are a host of other sides related to high and low estrogen that can be very unhealthy, and downright dangerous, if left unchecked. hCG prevents testicular atrophy and promotes a smoother transition to PCT at the end of your cycle. And not including a PCT protocol to assist in restarting your HPTA, is simply foolish imho. 

I honestly believe it would be irresponsible for you to exclude these compounds during your proposed cycle. Please take the time to fully educate yourself before embarking on AAS and do not hesitate to ask questions here or in the Q&A forums.

Good luck.

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## KReyn

Thanks for the input, I didn't think running test solo sounded like a good idea.

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## MickeyKnox

You're welcome KReyn. (shameless bump)

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## kelkel

The nerve!

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## The Kernal

Great thread. brb putting this page in my favorites.

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## KReyn

How can I ensure I'm getting quality test? I have a couple different options to pick from.

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## MickeyKnox

> How can I ensure I'm getting quality test? I have a couple different options to pick from.


Ensure the test is from a quality lab/manufacturer.

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## MickeyKnox

> The nerve!


Haha

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## KReyn

This may seem like too broad a question but what do the vets around here wish they would have known when they did their first cycle?

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## Lunk1

> This may seem like too broad a question but what do the vets around here wish they would have known when they did their first cycle?


EASY...better understanding of AI's PCT and the importance of nutrition and it's effect on your cycle success!

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## The Kernal

> EASY...better understanding of AI's PCT and the importance of nutrition and it's effect on your cycle success!


AI are estrogen blockers?

----------


## Cheifjuana

> lol i dont think any new guys have read this, judging by the new threads that are being started...
> 
> bump


I'm new to this forum, I'm going.to study gear for the next year, work on my fourm and base then decide which gear to take based on body compensation. I see a lot of you post info just like this. But you're not explaining it to beginners. You're explaining as if you were explaining to another vet/person who knows about gear. Imo if you looked up the information and posted why to take this product, and not take this one. Or what this does when combined with another. It's a good post I hope I can learn from it but what it doesn't say is why and what. 

"Step 1 open box
Step 2 take tablet

Boom! Now you know all about that gear now start your cycle"

----------


## fit2bOld

Good thread Mickey

Bumping

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Good thread Mickey
> 
> Bumping


Thanks F2B!




> AI are estrogen blockers?


Click on the link, *SERM's/AI's* on the first page.  :Smilie: 

*SERM, AI*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-AI-Definition





> I'm new to this forum, I'm going.to study gear for the next year, work on my fourm and base then decide which gear to take based on body compensation. I see a lot of you post info just like this. *But you're not explaining it to beginners.* You're explaining as if you were explaining to another vet/person who knows about gear. Imo if you looked up the information and posted why to take this product, and not take this one. Or what this does when combined with another. It's a good post I hope I can learn from it but what it doesn't say is why and what. 
> 
> "Step 1 open box
> Step 2 take tablet
> 
> Boom! Now you know all about that gear now start your cycle"


Its up to you to do your homework and read everything you can and inform and educate yourself as much as possible. Make notes and word documents to refer to. Observe other cycles and and try understand why certain compounds and various lengths of time were chosen. Read up on esters and what their roles are. But most importantly, read the Nutrition forum and develop a solid understanding of diet, macros, and TDEE. Then, ask pertinent questions based on your research and reading. 

This will give the lead on AAS, and provide you with enough knowledge to make an informed and educated decision.

----------


## The Kernal

> I'm new to this forum, I'm going.to study gear for the next year, work on my fourm and base then decide which gear to take based on body compensation. I see a lot of you post info just like this. But you're not explaining it to beginners. You're explaining as if you were explaining to another vet/person who knows about gear. Imo if you looked up the information and posted why to take this product, and not take this one. Or what this does when combined with another. It's a good post I hope I can learn from it but what it doesn't say is why and what. 
> 
> "Step 1 open box
> Step 2 take tablet
> 
> Boom! Now you know all about that gear now start your cycle"


What you saying is true. However, from one rookie (me) speaking to another (you), we have to be thankful for the info these vets are posting. They aren't here to spoon feed us, just to point us in the right direction, Nomsayin?
This thread is an outline for a beginners cycle, not a 'how to' type thread. One of the most useful ways of educating yourself (imo) is reading other peoples cycle logs ( ie: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...hate-Cycle-Log) as well as having a sounds knowledge of nutrition and training. Take notes as mickey said.

Good luck

----------


## MickeyKnox

> What you saying is true. However, from one rookie (me) speaking to another (you), we have to be thankful for the info these vets are posting. They aren't here to spoon feed us, just to point us in the right direction, Nomsayin?
> This thread is an outline for a beginners cycle, not a 'how to' type thread. One of the most useful ways of educating yourself (imo) is *reading other peoples cycle logs* ( ie: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...hate-Cycle-Log) as well as having a sounds knowledge of nutrition and training. Take notes as mickey said.
> 
> Good luck


That's actually a great way to learn and get a feel for what a cycle looks like. And while you're following along, you will likely pick up on why the OP chose those particular compounds in the first place. 

Great suggestion Kernal.

----------


## kmms

bizump

----------


## chartman26

This is a great thread, I wish I would have had this months ago, it would have helped a lot.




> I'm new to this forum, I'm going.to study gear for the next year, work on my fourm and base then decide which gear to take based on body compensation. I see a lot of you post info just like this. But you're not explaining it to beginners. You're explaining as if you were explaining to another vet/person who knows about gear. Imo if you looked up the information and posted why to take this product, and not take this one. Or what this does when combined with another. It's a good post I hope I can learn from it but what it doesn't say is why and what.
> 
> "Step 1 open box
> Step 2 take tablet
> 
> Boom! Now you know all about that gear now start your cycle"


I'm new as well ( still only planning my first cycle, haven't even gotten any supplies yet), but you gotta look around the forums like the others said. There's so much information here, spend a few days reading just here on this site and you'd have a better understanding of what/why/when.

----------


## The Kernal

> That's actually a great way to learn and get a feel for what a cycle looks like. And while you're following along, you will likely pick up on why the OP chose those particular compounds in the first place. 
> 
> Great suggestion Kernal.


Thanks bro

----------


## Cheifjuana

> This is a great thread, I wish I would have had this months ago, it would have helped a lot.
> 
> I'm new as well ( still only planning my first cycle, haven't even gotten any supplies yet), but you gotta look around the forums like the others said. There's so much information here, spend a few days reading just here on this site and you'd have a better understanding of what/why/when.


I'm going to spend a few months reading. Right now Im trying to stretch out my fourm. Thank you for this thread bra

----------


## KReyn

Any recomendation on any steroid documentaries? I've seen Bigger, Stronger, Faster but I'm looking for something a little more scientific.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> *I'm going to spend a few months reading.* Right now Im trying to stretch out my fourm. Thank you for this thread bra


Smart move. 

And youre welcome bra, brah, broskie.  :Smilie:

----------


## MickeyKnox

> This is a great thread, I wish I would have had this months ago, it would have helped a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm new as well ( still only planning my first cycle, haven't even gotten any supplies yet), but you gotta look around the forums like the others said. There's so much information here, *spend a few days reading just here on this site and you'd have a better understanding of what/why/when*.


Hallelujah!

----------


## Cheifjuana

Mickey whay do you think about HCG and tren only cycle

----------


## Zazi23

Awesome !

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mickey whay do you think about HCG and tren only cycle


As a cycle? I don't. Used for primary hypogonadism? It can work. In fact its used monotherapy. 

I believe Sworder has a thread on that. 




> Awesome !


Thanks bro.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump for the early morning crew  :Smilie:

----------


## Mavs

Excellent thread, should be a STICKY!

----------


## Abdulla

> Bump for the early morning crew


Mickey what if you can't get access to HCG ? but have all the other? any alternatives, thanks

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Excellent thread, should be a STICKY!


Thanks! 




> Mickey what if you can't get access to HCG? but have all the other? any alternatives, thanks


Well to be honest, with the internet at your fingertips, hCG is not that difficult to obtain these days. I really cant see why anyone would not be able to include this as part of their cycle. And i personally don't know of any substitutes for testicular atrophy.

----------


## Abdulla

> Thanks! 
> 
> 
> 
> Well to be honest, with the internet at your fingertips, hCG is not that difficult to obtain these days. I really cant see why anyone would not be able to include this as part of their cycle. And i personally don't know of any substitutes for testicular atrophy.


Its not illegal to purchase here in canada right? & thank you for the help.

----------


## stpete

Nice job, Mickey!

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Its not illegal to purchase here in canada right? & thank you for the help.


Yes it's legal with a prescription. 




> Nice job, Mickey!


Thanks for the support Pete - means a lot coming for you.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump before bedtime.  :Smilie:

----------


## kronik420

question:

assuming your diet and training are g2g

how would the gains compare from say a test prop 8 week cycle, to a test prop + anavar 8 week cycle? ( like the one u suggested prop week 1-8 anavar 60mg/day week 2-8)??

would you gain more muscle with the added var?

or would you gain the same amount of muscle but less fat?

etc..

and BUMP

----------


## MickeyKnox

All things considered, and in a perfect world as you suggest, you will definitely become stronger and leaner than Prop only. How much, however, largely depends on the person. Remember this is all dependent on the individual. 

Var will give you additional strength gains and assist in maintaining LBM.

----------


## kronik420

> All things considered, and in a perfect world as you suggest, you will definitely become stronger and leaner than Prop only. How much, however, largely depends on the person. Remember this is all dependent on the individual. 
> 
> Var will give you additional strength gains and assist in maintaining LBM.


thanks mick

sounds good to me  :Wink:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome Kronik.

----------


## kronik420

one more question:

if you were going to go with 12 weeks of test e + var

what weeks would you run the var? still 2-8?

----------


## MickeyKnox

The last 6-8wks. 

But i recommend you run it alongside a short ester like Prop. Im not suggesting you wont see results if you don't, but the short ester is a better choice.

----------


## kronik420

ok thanks mick

just pondering ideas on my first cycle, for sometime next year so..

ill probably just go with straight test only, maybe + dbol , since i still got some left over from:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...cle&highlight= 
^^ lol my 1st ever post/thread... wow have i've learnt alot since then... btw thank you to everyone for all the info i've learnt since then  :Smilie: 

or if i were to leave out the dbol, might kick-start with prop, but then again pinning prop into virgin muscle...?? lol i think that would hurt.. soo might just front load test e instead....

hmm well, i still got plenty of time to decide, no rush...

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome, keep me posted on your final choice.

----------


## kronik420

> Youre welcome, keep me posted on your final choice.


will do, ill be sure to make a log.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for the new guys.

----------


## fit2bOld

Good thread Mickey bumping it up

----------


## Definitionofdriven

Hey MK what dosage do you recommend on the ARR Stane?

A little confused on dosage on the Hcg ? 
What is bac water?
So you only need to mix 2ML of water with the whole vial of 5000iu hcg then pull the pin to .10ML to get 250iu I may just be repeating but I want to clarify. So protocol should be say Monday hcg then Tuesday: test/ then Friday hcg and test again on Saturday sound about right?Also Thanks brother much appreciated. 

1 other thing any specific sides I should monitor or worry about I'll be getting pre and post bloodwork as well

----------


## MickeyKnox

Thanks F2BO.


Definitionofdriven,

Stane(Aromasin ) = 12.5mg EOD(every other day) to start. Then monitor from there and increase or decrease if necessary. 

Yes, reconstitute with 2ml of Bacteriostatic Water. (Google it) 

.10 on the slin pin = 250iu. Inject this the day before you inject your test - you inject every 3.5 days. 

For example: Monday am test. Thurs pm test. Sunday hCG , Wed hCG. You can pick any day to begin your test, just make sure you inject hCG the day before your test injection fro optimum results.

----------


## MickeyKnox

You have a PM as well.

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Bump. Subbed. Thanks Mickey. On point as always!!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Thanks bro! 

Up to the top..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for those that can benefit.

----------


## Definitionofdriven

Thanks Mickey for all your help !

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre very welcome.

----------


## stevelifts

Good read. Great resource thread to direct people too.

----------


## banehallow

thanks Mik, got my gear and will start pinning soon. I'll make a log in the relevant forum

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Good read. Great resource thread to direct people too.


Thanks bro.




> thanks Mik, got my gear and will start pinning soon. I'll make a log in the relevant forum


You bet, keep us posted!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for the suppa crowd.  :Smilie:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Another shameless bump. Dont worry, there will be more.. :Smilie:

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

> Another shameless bump. Dont worry, there will be more..


^ I'll be complicit...bump!!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Friday bump..

Edit: Wow, after this mornings postings, I am determined to keep this thread on the front page.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for the influx of new people who desperately need to see this. What a day this has been..

----------


## MuscleInk

> Up for the influx of new people who desperately need to see this. What a day this has been..


Nothing wrong with good information bro!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Roger that, bro!

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Bump for Mick.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Front and center  :Smilie:

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Bump...you folks asking about first cycles, ITS ALL HERE. Do some reading before firing off a bunch of basic questions. It'll help you out in the eyes of these vets when you do need to ask a question.

----------


## kronik420



----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for the Sunday crowd.

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Bump for the night owls.

----------


## Patz

Great info! Subbed!

Hard to Get in Norway tho, atleast the discreet way.
Anywhere to order without problems with customs?

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

^^ Read the rules man. No source posting.

----------


## jpowell

big fat bump, been looking for this.

----------


## sixfootseven

Thnx for the informative thread, it's a big help.

----------


## MickeyKnox

You're welcome.

Up to the top.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Going up?  :Smilie:

----------


## MickeyKnox

G'day Thursday.

----------


## acanto

I have a question guys....for the first cycle for test e & dbol . It says to inject the test e twice a week 250mg, can i just do it once a week 500mg instead of twice a week???

thanks

----------


## MickeyKnox

Yes you can. But keeping your bloods stable is key to combating sides. Inject 2/wk for stable bloods.

----------


## acanto

Thank you!!!  :Classic:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome bud.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Knock Knock..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Hello Friday.  :Smilie:

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

To the top

----------


## MickeyKnox

G'day December  :Smilie:

----------


## bigsiv

I'm glad you keep bumping Mickey but it doesn't seem to be taking to the newbies. I think these type of threads should HAVE to be read before someone can join, it's the only way to learn the basics

----------


## MickeyKnox

Actually, it has helped quite a few. 

I frequently receive private messages from new members regarding this thread. And im happy to say that the open forum comments about the cycles contained here are consistently referred to by new members, as well as seasoned members too.  :Smilie:

----------


## bigsiv

I agree I've seen the references Mickey, but there are a lot of new threads that are asking the basic questions which would be answered here . Don't get me wrong Mickey I think it's a grand job and I'm glad some of the new guys are using it. No offence intended !

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre right about the basic questions that are constantly being asked. But we must persevere and continue to stay on top of this in order to satisfy the needs of the these young people as the numbers continue to grow. By keeping threads like these in the forefront, we reduce the number of basic questions and provide assistance at the same time.

No offense taken my friend.  :Smilie:

----------


## bigsiv

> Youre right about the basic questions that are constantly being asked. But we must persevere and continue to stay on top of this in order to satisfy the needs of the these young people as the numbers continue to grow. By keeping threads like these in the forefront, we reduce the number of basic questions and provide assistance at the same time.
> 
> No offense taken my friend.


Spot on Mickey this forum is much better with you in it and having the patience.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Thanks for the support bigsiv.  :Smilie:

----------


## bigsiv

Thanx to you Mickey ya welcome!

----------


## kronik420



----------


## MickeyKnox

Sunday bump..

----------


## mootyroonks

On the 12 week Test E cycle, is Anastrozol an acceptable substitute for aromasin ? at 0.25g eod for 12 weeks?

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Bump for Monday Morning

----------


## platinumblue

Wow very nice. Tons of easily digestable chunks of information! Wish I had found this sooner....

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Wow very nice. Tons of easily digestable chunks of information! Wish I had found this sooner....


Glad this helped! 




> On the 12 week Test E cycle, is Anastrozol an acceptable substitute for aromasin? at 0.25g eod for 12 weeks?


Absolutely.  :Smilie:

----------


## Shsm

Bump =]

----------


## Lunk1

i was considering trying test...anything I should know first?  :Wink:

----------


## OnTheSauce

> i was considering trying test...anything I should know first?


Send it to me to test for u. I care about your safety and quality of gear you are injecting.

----------


## Lunk1

> Send it to me to test for u. I care about your safety and quality of gear you are injecting.


A true friend indeed! We should FB lol

----------


## MickeyKnox

> i was considering trying test...anything I should know first?


I think you should diet first.  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Buuuuuump

----------


## senorrebo

This REALLY needs to be stickied.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for the night owls..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Hello? Are you there caller?

----------


## Lunk1

> I think you should diet first.


Story of my life...bumped cause Mick is kool!

----------


## jokers32

quick question when you say nolva 40/40/20/20 what does that mean? New here and am going to try the beginners stuff probably will get hooked tho. Thanks for all the info too.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Per day per wk.

40mg per day for 7 days. Then repeat. Then 20mg per day for 7 days. Then repeat.  :Smilie:

----------


## jokers32

thank you

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome.

And welcome to the Forums Joker!

----------


## jokers32

another quick one what hcg should be used?

----------


## MickeyKnox

What type? How much to use?

----------


## jokers32

yes i was planning on doing the long ester so i was looking but i seem to find a lot just dont know dose and what one to use i tried doing a lot of research but seemed to get overwhelmed

----------


## MickeyKnox

In short, hCG is used on cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, and to promote a smooth transition from on cycle to PCT. 

Typically its dosed @ 250iu 2/wk on cycle.

----------


## Lunk1

Cause it's Thursday :0

----------


## KReyn

Question about the two long ester cycles. Option 1 suggests test c with armidex and option 2 suggests test e with aromasin . Is there any advantage to this as opposed to running test e with armidex and vice versa? Also a buddy of mine suggested hgh for a first cycle, any thoughts on this?

----------


## MickeyKnox

The reason is, Adex is fast acting and is suitable for short esters (fast acting) like Prop. The long ester like Enanthate is more suitable with a longer estered AI like Aromasin .

HGH for a first cycle is not recommended.

----------


## KReyn

I believe the the first long ester cycle suggests test C with Armidex. Should Armidex only be used when using Prop? Is Aromasin a better AI for for both test C and E?

Didn't think HGH for a first cycle sounded right haha. Thanks MickeyKnox.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I believe the the first long ester cycle suggests test C with Armidex. Should Armidex only be used when using Prop? Is Aromasin a better AI for for both test C and E?
> 
> Didn't think HGH for a first cycle sounded right haha. Thanks MickeyKnox.


That cycle included Adex to illustrate you can use either AI, as the following long estered cycle includes Aromasin.  :Smilie: 

BUT, if i were able to *chose* either AI with a long estered testosterone , i would simply choose Aromasin as i have explained earlier. Some guys/gals have their AI's already on hand so i simply wanted to point out using Adex on a long estered cycle is fine, but Aromasin is a better choice IMHO.

----------


## KReyn

Cool, I appreciate the input sir.

----------


## bigsiv

Bump in the morning.......

----------


## KReyn

If I were to go on a Long Ester cycle what kind of side effects can I expect? I've always been a little freaked out about the idea of my scrotum shrinking and not being able to sexually perform (not sure if these side effects are rumors from taking test). Also a few years back I used to be a pretty heavy smoker. I've quit for the past year but still enjoy a cigarette here and there, is this ok to have a cig once and a while on a cycle?

----------


## MickeyKnox

Dump the cigs. Period. 

Side affects can be controlled for the most part with having low BF and including an AI on cycle. (some include acne, bloating, mood, ED..ect)

hCG will prevent testicular atrophy if used on cycle as well.

----------


## KReyn

If I had to guess my bf% is about 11-12. Is that too high to start a cycle? Do you say dump the cigs because it may be to stressful on my body while on a cycle or just because it's a gross habit?

----------


## MickeyKnox

Dump the cigs because they will kill you. That's a good enough reason right there, dont you think??

Whats you height and weight?

----------


## Mostly-fat

2 weeks of cig sobriety tomorrow.. After smoking for almost 15 years I can tell you it's a life changer.. Good luck it's the hardest drug I've ever quit and I've been hooked on some badass ones..

----------


## KReyn

Haha yeah I suppose so. I'm about 5'10 and I've been right fluctuating between 175-180.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Haha yeah I suppose so. I'm about 5'10 and I've been right fluctuating between 175-180.


You look good bro! What cycle did you choose?

----------


## KReyn

Thanks man! Hopefully I can get my arms to be half of your size haha. I Think I'm going to go with one of the first two Long Ester options, still want to do a little more research and ask a few more questions before I decide to start my first cycle.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Thanks man! Hopefully I can get my arms to be half of your size haha. I Think I'm going to go with one of the first two Long Ester options, still want to do a little more research and ask a few more questions before I decide to start my first cycle.


Roger that! Good luck and hit up the Q&A for more advice and ideas.  :Smilie:  

*Anabolic Q&A Forum.*

http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...S#.UIDcDq7X_fs

----------


## kelkel

You do look good Kreyn! Take Mickeys advice and run with it!

Welcome to the forum as well!

kel

----------


## MickeyKnox

*UP* where we belong..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaLizIVcY3o

----------


## KReyn

Thanks Kel! I can't wait to take before and after pics and see the difference.

----------


## cgozz

I have been reading on how to mix hcg 10,000iu. Reading different things a little confused. Getting ready to start long ester cycle with oral. Pretty new to this. Could use a little clarification on hcg.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I have been reading on how to mix hcg 10,000iu. Reading different things a little confused. Getting ready to start long ester cycle with oral. Pretty new to this. Could use a little clarification on hcg.


....

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I have been reading on how to mix hcg 10,000iu. Reading different things a little confused. Getting ready to start long ester cycle with oral. Pretty new to this. Could use a little clarification on hcg.


Reconstitute with 4ml Bac Water and that will give you 250iu at .10 on the slin pin.  :Smilie:

----------


## cgozz

Thanks for the info. Thread has been real helpful!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome.

----------


## MickeyKnox

"Is there anybody....out there!" Pink Floyd.

----------


## cliffjumper

Read through this today - great information. Thank you MickeyKnox! Beginner here, so working on gettin the basics down. Now have a full list of stuff to read up on next thanks to this thread (that's a good thing!)

----------


## MickeyKnox

10-4 buddy!

----------


## cgozz

I have done some more reading on long ester cycle. Have a couple of questions. can 300mg of deca be added weekly for extra bulking help. and the d-bol should it be taken for first four weeks, i read it could be thrown in mid cycle. Also could HCG be ran weeks 3-10.If running Test Enth for weeks 1-10 . I am new to this, I have put together cycle of some studying i have done. would post cycle but don't know if i can post in this forum would like an opinion.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I have done some more reading on long ester cycle. Have a couple of questions. can 300mg of deca be added weekly for extra bulking help. and the d-bol should it be taken for first four weeks, i read it could be thrown in mid cycle. Also could HCG be ran weeks 3-10.If running Test Enth for weeks 1-10 . I am new to this, I have put together cycle of some studying i have done. would post cycle but don't know if i can post in this forum would like an opinion.


Yes you can add Deca for bulking. But i would not recommend it in your first cycle. Test ONLY first cycle to determine and eventuate how testosterone will react in your body first. 

Dbol can be used anywhere in your cycle, but it's traditionally used up front to kick start a long estered cycle. 

Yes you can run hCG from wks 3-10.

Post up your proposed cycle for us to take a peek at.  :Smilie:

----------


## cgozz

W 1-10 Test Enth E3d 250mg
W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/D
W 1-8 Deca 300mg Wwwkly
WK 1-12 Aromasin 12.5 EOD
W 3-10 HCG 250iu 2x/W
PCT starts week 13
WK 13 clomid 50mg 2x/D
WK 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d

6'0 tall
38 years old
212lb
Been training natural for years I feel i have hit peak. I have good numbers but it is getting hard to grow and make gains. Good Diet all things pretty much dialed in. No health problems, just had blood panels done.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> W 1-10 Test Enth E3d 250mg Twice /wk E3.5D. But i would recommend you extend this out to 12 wks.
> W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/D Personally, i would do it all 30mg a few hours before you hit the gym and smash it hard. Not necessary to dose rest days IMHO.
> W 1-8 Deca 300mg Wwwkly Perfect. But, if you extend Test to 12wks make sure you extend Deca to 10wks
> WK 1-12 Aromasin 12.5 EOD Perfect.
> W 3-10 HCG 250iu 2x/W Run up to wk 11.5
> PCT starts week 13 Start Wk 12, not 13. 
> WK 12 clomid 50mg 2x/D for wk 1. Then 50mg per day for wks 2-4
> WK 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d 40mg/day for wk1. Then 20mg/day for wk 2-4
> 
> ...



Remember to change up your wks if you extend to 12 wks.

----------


## cgozz

I will extend weeks looks and sounds good. If I have any more Questions will Ask. Thank for all the Help.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I will extend weeks looks and sounds good. If I have any more Questions will Ask. Thank for all the Help.


Youre welcome.

Remember to *adjust everything accordingly.*

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for fresh fish..

----------


## mootyroonks

Just a couple clarifications. HCG is mostly to protect against TA, is there anything else that it does? I understand that it keeps production of LH active. anything else? Is it accurate to wait for HCG until you begin to see TA?

Also, using AI on cycle is obviously a good idea, but i read that HCG can reduce the effects of Arimidex . Is it safer to use another AI during cycle? or should you just be able to up the dose and continue. im scurred of gyno

----------


## MickeyKnox

hCG - youre correct on the behavior of hCG, but you should begin administering it from the beginning of your cycle - not after you experience TA. 

AI - I didn't know that hCG effects Adex. I do know that Nolva can effect the performance of Adex. Perhaps youre getting this mixed up? Gyno does not happen over night. You will see and feel signs before you develop gyno.

----------


## bchabs6

Just a couple questions, based more off experience of friends etc.

Almost everyone I know has never taken hCG while on cycle, is the real benefit from hCG just the TA and to ease into pct? 

Also for pct, I've seen people on the forums, and IRL say that just taking Nolva is fine for pct. Clomid is used to jump the natural test levels back up, correct?

And lastly, I see a lot of cycles that have AI incorporated, but also a lot that say just having it on hand is fine. Is it fine to go without as long as you have it on hand and ready to go?

----------


## MickeyKnox

The links at the *bottom of the first page* address every one of your questions bro.  :Smilie:

----------


## mootyroonks

sorry mickey, youre right, it is nolva. So then if Im mid cycle and getting gyno even though i am taking 0.5 eod arimidex with the hcg , then should I drop the arimidex and switch AI's or up the dose? my concern then at that point is ODing on Adex.

----------


## MickeyKnox

No, don't switch up AI's. 

If youre starting your AI (Adex) at .5mg EOD because you THINK you may develop gyno, don't. Begin your AI protocol as suggested in the thread at .25mg. Then if you begin to see early symptoms of gyno, you can titrate your AI up to .5 EOD and then ED *depending on your symptoms.* You can also add 10mg Nolva ED for a period of time to combat and block the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue. 

If I were as nervous about gyno as you are, i would purchase some Raloxifene for AR-R .com to have on hand as this SERM has 10x the binding affinity of Nolva.

----------


## mootyroonks

That would definitely be the plan. 0.25eod to start. Im more or less ensuring i have everything on hand and a plan of action in case i have issues. so the ralo on hand for gyno symptoms then?

----------


## MickeyKnox

Dont get me wrong, Nolva will do the trick and has been at the forefront of Gyno issues for many years. But Raloxifene has proven to be a better choice for Gyno related issues. 

This is NOT based upon personal experience. I have never, and will never, have Gyno because i control my E2 at all times.

----------


## mootyroonks

Seems like you monitor your blood quite frequently, obviously a good idea to help keep things under control. I plan on doing that, prob a better way to handle it than stocking up on stuff you wont need. it is good to know what else is out there though.

----------


## kronik420

bump for the guy that wants to do a deca + winny cycle.....

----------


## beasting

> bump for the guy that wants to do a deca + winny cycle.....


thanks bro, no way I want to do that cycle though just wanted it vetted..

----------


## kronik420

> thanks bro, no way I want to do that cycle though just wanted it vetted..


lol yea, just pick one of these cycles on the 1st page, but research every compound in that cycle, so you will want to read up on testosterone , AI's, HCG , clomid, nolva, ect...

you should know what it is you are putting into your body before you start sticking your self with needles and swallowing tabs...

----------


## beasting

> lol yea, just pick one of these cycles on the 1st page, but research every compound in that cycle, so you will want to read up on testosterone , AI's, HCG , clomid, nolva, ect...
> 
> you should know what it is you are putting into your body before you start sticking your self with needles and swallowing tabs...


thanks again for your help mate, i really do appreciate it

----------


## kronik420

> thanks again for your help mate, i really do appreciate it


anytime  :Smilie:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Ttt  :Smilie:

----------


## felix70

am really a beginner and i need serious help about this i hate injections and please who can help me out on what to take? i really need this please

----------


## kronik420

> am really a beginner and i need serious help about this i hate injections and please who can help me out on what to take? i really need this please


1kg of chicken breast, and 1kg of sweet potatoes, 5-6 times daily.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> 1kg of chicken breast, and 1kg of sweet potatoes, 5-6 times daily.


And plenty of exercise. :Smilie:

----------


## Lunk1

:Bbbump:

----------


## Lunk1

It's the begining of a new AR workweek  :Wink:  BUMP

----------


## cgozz

Just got gear today. Going to start long ester cycle with oral and Deca . Already posted cycle, new to to this a little nervous about injecting. Also Deca is taken once a week at 300 mg can I take Test E and Deca on same day or together. I have read can put in same rig or is this wrong some help please.

----------


## HeadAndArm

Awesome this is just the post I've been looking for.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Just got gear today. Going to start long ester cycle with oral and Deca. Already posted cycle, new to to this a little nervous about injecting. Also Deca is taken once a week at 300 mg can I take Test E and Deca on same day or together. I have read can put in same rig or is this wrong some help please.


I hope this isn't your first cycle. If so, you need to seriously reevaluate what your doing. Test ONLY first cycle bro.

----------


## cgozz

Posted cycle already u looked it over and critiqued it. Said g2g

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Posted cycle already u looked it over and critiqued it. Said g2g


You must of missed the part where i said *if this is your first cycle do not add Deca.* 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...33#post6292033

----------


## cgozz

I already pined last night Deca and test e. kalpa products.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I already pined last night Deca and test e. kalpa products.


So you ignored my advice, which is shared by every responsible member here. My last piece of advice is discontinue the Deca . Dbol , Deca, and Test, is NOT a first cycle.

----------


## cgozz

Got you my bad if I misunderstood. Once again thanks.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome.

----------


## cgozz

When injecting every 3.5 days, does that mean on a tue and fri or wed and sat or is it another way need some clarification.

----------


## GeriatricOne

Thank you MickyKnox. glad I ventured out of the HRT/TRT forum tonight. Your post is what I've been looking for. Thanks for including the note about PCT for us on HRT/TRT. I think this should be a sticky note. Kudos!

----------


## Gaspaco

> When injecting every 3.5 days, does that mean on a tue and fri or wed and sat or is it another way need some clarification.


Doesn't matter the days but am pm. 

Monday am and thursday pm is 3.5day!
Tuesday am and friday pm is a 3.5day!

----------


## cgozz

Thanks for the info. Appreciate it.

----------


## cgozz

Just like to thank Mickey Knox, been real helpful. First day I pined, had some PIP. Pined Deca and Test-e. upon advice from Mickey dropped Deca. Pined second time this morning very little pip.Test-E real smooth feeling pretty good. Thanks for all the advice.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome. Sounds like you have everything under control.  :Smilie:

----------


## GeriatricOne

Any thoughts on supplements (if any) while on these cycles?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Any thoughts on supplements (if any) while on these cycles?


Creatine works well with AAS. Casein protein for nighttime.

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Bump. Keeping this where it belongs.

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

----------


## ma_fighter

Bump!

and

Sticky this alredy!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for the wave of new guys that apparently NEED to read this asap!

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Up for the wave of new guys that apparently NEED to read this asap!


Again!

----------


## scott1971

Mickey tried to send u a message in your mail.. I am a newbie as far as cycles and is looking to get some good size & strength back due to accident and having to stop.. I have read up alot on all these products but would like your input on a first cycle and does need not to take creatine with it ? Thanks and god bless

----------


## kronik420

> Mickey tried to send u a message in your mail.. I am a newbie as far as cycles and is looking to get some good size & strength back due to accident and having to stop.. I have read up alot on all these products but would like your input on a first cycle and does need not to take creatine with it ? Thanks and god bless


you need 50 posts i think to be able to PM someone, you can just post your question here if you want..

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mickey tried to send u a message in your mail.. I am a newbie as far as cycles and is looking to get some good size & strength back due to accident and having to stop.. I have read up alot on all these products but would like your input on a first cycle and does need not to take creatine with it ? Thanks and god bless


Hi and welcome Scott.

Like Kronik said, you have to have 50 posts i believe. But not to worry. Simply post your questions up here or the Q&A forum and we'll be more than happy to help you along and point you in the right direction. 

Cheers  :Smilie:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Front of the bus..

----------


## ma_fighter

:Bbkanibaal:  :Bbkanibaal:  :Bbkanibaal:  BumpetiBumpetiBump

----------


## Relax

Mick, do you have a preference between test E or C?
Ill be running dbol wks 1-4 30mg pre workout.

Should the dbol be taken monday-sunday or mon-fri?

----------


## Soar

> Mick, do you have a preference between test E or C?
> Ill be running dbol wks 1-4 30mg pre workout.
> 
> Should the dbol be taken monday-sunday or mon-fri?


Run the dbol threw out the day to keep blood levels steady. Test e and test c are virtually the same.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mick, do you have a preference between test E or C?
> Ill be running dbol wks 1-4 30mg pre workout.
> 
> Should the dbol be taken monday-sunday or mon-fri?


I have no preference between the two. I believe there's only one atom that separates the two which creates a longer ester (18 days) with Cypionate compared to Enanthate (14 days).

Dbol has a short half life (6 hours) so i try to time it a few hours before my workouts. But for me the jury is still out whether or not to include it on days off. Convincing arguments, as well as personal experiences, have been made for both sides. Your call.

----------


## bigsiv

Bumpety bump........

----------


## HereinDC

What if I my person doesn't have Arimidex ? What can I use instead?

----------


## MickeyKnox

Liquidex (Arimidex ) or Stane (Aromasin ) from site sponsor above. AR-R .com  :Smilie:

----------


## mikey hulk

Good info

----------


## Rambler

If I wanted to start a beginners cycle with the oral, can I also include deca or not?

----------


## bigsiv

> If I wanted to start a beginners cycle with the oral, can I also include deca or not?


No bud, personally I think the oral shouldn't be added but Mickey has put that up there because people normally tend to do orals before they inject. First cycles should be test only so you can see how your body reacts. Also if you make good gains with test then use it again. Extra compounds should be brought in when the basics have been exhausted or there is a particular goal in mind. Deca is a harsh compound stay away for now.

----------


## Rambler

> No bud, personally I think the oral shouldn't be added but Mickey has put that up there because people normally tend to do orals before they inject. First cycles should be test only so you can see how your body reacts. Also if you make good gains with test then use it again. Extra compounds should be brought in when the basics have been exhausted or there is a particular goal in mind. Deca is a harsh compound stay away for now.


Cheers siv,

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Bump

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

> Bump


^^^^^^^^^

----------


## sadiq7777

nice work guys..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Ttt.

----------


## ma_fighter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<><
><> ><>
<>< ><>

Little fishes bumping

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

to the top

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up for the late nighters and new guys.

----------


## Aus

Amazing mate

----------


## Soar

Back on up there

----------


## ElDude

Thanks for the info bro. I wanted to add Tren to my first cycle along with Test E and Winny. After reading this post however I feel like I should leave the Tren out to see how I react to Test E and Winny. Should I do 4 weeks of Winny at the start? Or end my cycle with it? Also, since Test E is a long acting AAS why do you recommend pinning EOD? Do people ever just pin Test E once per week?

----------


## Scottyb13

Are you wanting to gain or cut? What are your stats? Height weigh age bf% workout history, and most important how is your diet and cal intake per day?!?!?!

----------


## ElDude

> Are you wanting to gain or cut? What are your stats? Height weigh age bf% workout history, and most important how is your diet and cal intake per day?!?!?!


I am definitely looking to cut. I am 26. Right now I am 6'0, 210 with 16% bf, someone on here said more bf more sides with AAS. Should I cut more bf before a cycle? Can be difficult because cardio can be a pain in the ass due to injury.

Been lifting for a good 6 years, however I was in a motorcycle accident 3 years ago. I have been back at it 100% for the past year lifting 5x per week. Cardio can still be a bitch though due to injuries. Diet is clean as a whistle. 

Eggs, oats, shake in the morning tuna salad midday snack. 8oz grilled chicken salad (spinach, broccoli, tomatoes, sunflower/pumpkin seeds, kidney beans) with 1.5 cups whole grain rice at lunch. Tuna and almonds evening snack. 8oz chicken, rice and shake with fresh greens for dinner. Eggs and shake before bed. No complex carbs, no sugary anything. I do eat a piece of bacon with my morning eggs one time a week because I ****ing love bacon. A bit over 2500 cals 250-265 g protein.

----------


## Scottyb13

Ok so to cut.. Now correct me here if I'm wrong guys, I'm saying this from what I have heard so assume its right. Test would be to help gain mass, to cut I have heard winny and clen .

----------


## Lunk1

> Ok so to cut.. Now correct me here if I'm wrong guys, I'm saying this from what I have heard so assume its right. Test would be to help gain mass, to cut I have heard winny and clen.


Bulking and cutting can be done on any compound! It is 100% diet dependent!

----------


## Scottyb13

Ok see, what I heard from a good source even wasn't too sure. He told me tests are to gain mass .. Figured I would throw it out there

----------


## Lunk1

> Ok see, what I heard from a good source even wasn't too sure. He told me tests are to gain mass .. Figured I would throw it out there


Test is the base for all AAS cycles. We need it to function as men! Test in higher than normal doses can build muscle but it depends on diet. You must eat to grow and maintain muscle. Test can also be used to help maintain some lbm while on a calorie defeciant cutting diet!

----------


## panntastic

Shameless bump

----------


## ElDude

> Test is the base for all AAS cycles. We need it to function as men! Test in higher than normal doses can build muscle but it depends on diet. You must eat to grow and maintain muscle. Test can also be used to help maintain some lbm while on a calorie defeciant cutting diet!


What difference in results would you see in a calorie deficient cutting with AAS and without? With Winny? That is why I originally wanted to run it with Tren , but again, I am new to AAS and after reading this post I don't want to risk Tren sides and not know what to do about them.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> What difference in results would you see in a calorie deficient cutting with AAS and without? With Winny? That is why I originally wanted to run it with Tren, but again, I am new to AAS and after reading this post I don't want to risk Tren sides and not know what to do about them.


You shouldn't be thinking about Tren at this stage. If this is your first cycle, Test ONLY. 

This will determine how your body responds to exogenous testosterone and what, if any, sides that show up. It also teaches you how to effectively combat unwanted sides. This is paramount before including other AAS such as a 19 nor or stacking any orals.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Ttt  :Smilie:

----------


## bigsiv

Bumped....

----------


## Lunk1

Your needed on the front line!

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Its obvious... this needs a BIG BUMP

----------


## bigsiv

Bump......

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

You are needed..AT THE TOP!!

----------


## platinumtest746

Need a bit of advice... I am semi new to AAS and have ran into a dilemma. I was looking to run the following cycle:

Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 100mg eod. 
Wk 3-8 Winstrol 50mg EOD 
Wk 1-8 Aromasin 12.5mg eod day after Prop - monitor and adjust accordingly. 
Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before Prop. Same day as AI.

PCT 
Begins wk 9 to wk 12 

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20

On my pct I got stuck with 25mg nolvas and they are capsules. Rather than trying to guesstimate removing 5mg out of the capsule would it be a problem to run 50/50/25/25?
I have tried researching this but haven't had much success as nobody seems to have a clear answer. Also based on reviews of this sources gear he tends to have products that are slightly overdosed as it stands. Anyone have any advice?

----------


## Towboater

Great post and me being one of the newbys I'm gonna take it as a gift!!!

But my main thing is how do you know if your getting them from a legit place?? I mean I'm just a small town country boy but I don't wanna be injecting some dog piss I found off the net. LOL

----------


## muscel_inT.O.

Wow. So helpful. Great post.

----------


## bigsiv

To the top.......

----------


## MickeyKnox

Long overdue shameless bump  :Smilie:

----------


## Lunk1

> Long overdue shameless bump


She fianlly ley ya up for air? lol

----------


## MickeyKnox

> She finally let ya up for air? lol


I though you were banned? Or at least Pink by now..(lol)

----------


## Lunk1

> I though you were banned? Or at least Pink by now..(lol)


Niether...does that mean Admin loves me or hates me????

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Niether...does that mean Admin loves me or hates me????


He loves you..the whole world loves you brother! You're a hunka hunka hunka burnin' love!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Up like silver stock in June of 2012..

----------


## 555mjolnir

bump^^^ just asked again

----------


## Leeterz

Awesome thread man. Lot of really good stuff here. Especially for the new guy  :Clap: 

Thanks a heap

L

----------


## Brick

Well said Knox!

----------


## THE HOGG

I read test only for your first cycle to see how your body reacts to it. I am currently on trt and injecting test once a week. But this will be my first cycle so does that still apply? Trying to figure out wich cycle also. Damn! I wish I had more time to read on here, an hour or so a day just doesnt seem to cut it.

----------


## Soar

> I read test only for your first cycle to see how your body reacts to it. I am currently on trt and injecting test once a week. But this will be my first cycle so does that still apply? Trying to figure out wich cycle also. Damn! I wish I had more time to read on here, an hour or so a day just doesnt seem to cut it.


If you're currently on TRT I would just up the dose to 500/week. You'll still gain allot from it.

----------


## THE HOGG

> If you're currently on TRT I would just up the dose to 500/week. You'll still gain allot from it.


So I shouldnt use arimidex and hcg with my first cycle? Why? Because Im on TRT.

----------


## Soar

> So I shouldnt use arimidex and hcg with my first cycle? Why? Because Im on TRT.


Yes use an AI for sure, the higher test levels will up estrogen even if you're on TRT. As for the hcg on TRT I'm not 100% sure on that but I would assume using it would still be beneficial. 

I'm sure someone with a bit more experience in TRT will fill in a bit better then I'm able to.

----------


## THE HOGG

> Yes use an AI for sure, the higher test levels will up estrogen even if you're on TRT. As for the hcg on TRT I'm not 100% sure on that but I would assume using it would still be beneficial. 
> 
> I'm sure someone with a bit more experience in TRT will fill in a bit better then I'm able to.


Cool, thanks. I plan to start with the beginners cycle on here and jsu trying to do my homework to make sure before I do.

----------


## THE HOGG

Is hcg legal to purchase without a rx? I googled it and its all over the place to buy injections of it but I dont want to get burnt or buy some junk. I also dont want to get in trouble here for asking for a source if its against the rules.. Is the hcg injections advertised for weight loss the same as recommended here for a beginners first cycle with test e?

----------


## MickeyKnox

Anytime youre shutdown (when Testicular Atrophy occurs) you should include hCG , this includes while on TRT. 

hCG can be purchased at many places online. Just ensure that you're purchasing hCG that requires reconstitution (powder form).

----------


## THE HOGG

Thank you. So what your saying is my doctor should be prescribing it to me while on trt?

----------


## >Acute<

Wonder why on this site it tells beginners to use deca , dbol and test for a "novice cycle"

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Thank you. So what your saying is my doctor should be prescribing it to me while on trt?


If youre shutdown and concerned about Testicular Atrophy, thats correct. 




> Wonder why on this site it tells beginners to use deca, dbol and test for a "novice cycle"


Outdated info.

----------


## rayvondon

I don't hve a clue you guys language but it seem like you guys really care about educating us newbie thxs for real don't want to hurt myself you know

----------


## rayvondon

When starting a test cycle is there more than one test I need to purchase r just the 400

----------


## bigsiv

> When starting a test cycle is there more than one test I need to purchase r just the 400


The best test to start with would be a single ester test such as test E or C this will reduce your injections to twice a week. Test 400 has a few different esters so timing of pinning can be a problem. Every day Or every other day is standard protocol with test 400.

----------


## Soar

Up to the top for the breakfast club

----------


## ichad

T400 can be long and short esters which make the pinning more often due to the short esters being part of the make up. 

T400 I use is all long esters and therefore can be pinned every four days.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> The best test to start with would be a single ester test such as test E or C this will reduce your injections to twice a week. Test 400 has a few different esters so timing of pinning can be a problem. Every day Or every other day is standard protocol with test 400.


Solid advice.

----------


## reiss c

Bump back to the top. This threads so helpful

----------


## THE HOGG

> If youre shutdown and concerned about Testicular Atrophy, thats correct. 
> 
> 
> 
> Outdated info.


What do you mean by "shutdown".

----------


## Soar

> What do you mean by "shutdown".


You will stop producing natural testosterone

----------


## THE HOGG

Thank you. It says to take aromasin and monitor and adjust accordingly. How do I monitor that? Sorry for all the mewbie questions. Just wanna make sure I got it right before I start anything.

----------


## Soar

There's no such thing as a bad question or too many when it comes to ones body! The only tell tale way to tell 100% is by getting blood work done. Early signs can be sore nipples, loss of libido that kind of thing. You'll no if you have your estrogen in check very fast. Sex life will go down the drain if it isn't.

----------


## THE HOGG

Oh shit!! Cant have the whole sex life falling apart:-) Will definately keep that in check.. Thank you.

----------


## sixfootseven

5 star thread

----------


## havanakid

Great job Mickey.I really liked the part where you say "for those of you that think this is not for you cause youre only thinking of doing one cycle think again cause youre gonna wanna do more" lol..truer words have never been spoken.Good stuff buddy.

----------


## sixfootseven

To the top

----------


## Synergy1

Very informative.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> 5 star thread





> Great job Mickey.I really liked the part where you say "for those of you that think this is not for you cause youre only thinking of doing one cycle think again cause youre gonna wanna do more" lol..truer words have never been spoken.Good stuff buddy.


Glad you guys we able to benefit.

(shameless bump, of course)

----------


## SwooseGoose

Great information. Thanks!

----------


## Gaspaco

Bump

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Great information. Thanks!


You're welcome, said Mik who shamelessly bumped his thread..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Shooting for the stars..

----------


## Synergy1

What are some common things to expect when first starting test? I guess I'm asking what do you feel"........energized, tired, amped up, sick, trouble sleeping.......just curious as too what "feelings" are normal.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> What are some common things to expect when first starting test? I guess I'm asking what do you feel"........energized, tired, amped up, sick, trouble sleeping.......just curious as too what "feelings" are normal.


Depending on the ester, within 3-6wks (approx) you will eventually feel stronger, increase energy, increase libido, perhaps a bit of aggression, certainly you will feel more confident - did i mention libido increase? 

You may even have a feeling of euphoria from all the positive changes.  :Smilie:

----------


## Synergy1

> Depending on the ester, within 3-6wks (approx) you will eventually feel stronger, increase energy, increase libido, perhaps a bit of aggression, certainly you will feel more confident - did i mention libido increase? 
> 
> You may even have a feeling of euphoria from all the positive changes.


Thanks dude! Can't wait. I'm currently getting my diet on lockdown------ I've gained about 6 pounds since re-evaluating my caloric estimations and backing down straight cardio. Preparing and eating are exhausting. 

What do some posters mean by the test flu?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Thanks dude! Can't wait. I'm currently getting my diet on lockdown------ I've gained about 6 pounds since re-evaluating my caloric estimations and backing down straight cardio. Preparing and eating are exhausting. 
> 
> What do some posters mean by the test flu?


Good for you man! Keep it up!

Test flu is the sick feeling (similar to a cold) you occasionally get from AAS. It typically doesn't last more than a few days, up to a wk in some cases. 

Not to worry. Stay focused on your diet and training. Odds of you getting test flu is remote.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Ttt..

----------


## speedfreak

Been on this site for a minute and this has got to be one of the best threads yet.. Thanks for taking the time to do this!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Thanks SF. I was just about to bump this..lol

----------


## Synergy1

> Good for you man! Keep it up!
> 
> Test flu is the sick feeling (similar to a cold) you occasionally get from AAS. It typically doesn't last more than a few days, up to a wk in some cases. 
> 
> Not to worry. Stay focused on your diet and training. Odds of you getting test flu is remote.


I got ya! I just saw a few people mention it---not really worried, just didnt understand if it was something everyone usually gets. I looked it up and learned about it. I try to read up as much as I can about the ins and outs of the process and little by little I'm piecing it all together. Sometimes my brain wants to know everything at once when in reality, it takes time too understand what all goes into a good novice cycle. I thought the 45 day/100 post minimum rule was strupid until I realized it forced me to do my own research (everything is on this board BTW) to really get a firm grasp. Sometimes its difficult to navigate the site and remember where everything is, but everyone on this board is willing to help if your not lazy. Reading peoples post's and the invaluable stickies gets you pumped and I wanted to dive right in---the more I read, the more time I want to take planning and learning so as to avoid the hardships of a non informed cycle. It sure seems like you can really make a huge change n your first go round if you do things the right way. Again---thanks for the continued info.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I got ya! I just saw a few people mention it---not really worried, just didnt understand if it was something everyone usually gets. I looked it up and learned about it. I try to read up as much as I can about the ins and outs of the process and little by little I'm piecing it all together. Sometimes my brain wants to know everything at once when in reality, it takes time too understand what all goes into a good novice cycle. I thought the 45 day/100 post minimum rule was strupid until I realized it forced me to do my own research (everything is on this board BTW) to really get a firm grasp. Sometimes its difficult to navigate the site and remember where everything is, but everyone on this board is willing to help if your not lazy. Reading peoples post's and the invaluable stickies gets you pumped and I wanted to dive right in---the more I read, the more time I want to take planning and learning so as to avoid the hardships of a non informed cycle. It sure seems like you can really make a huge change n your first go round if you do things the right way. Again---thanks for the continued info.


Excellent! I wish more new members would think like you Synergy.  :Smilie:

----------


## THE HOGG

I cant believe this hasnt made sticky status!! This has got to be the best/most informative thread Ive read here.

----------


## MickeyKnox

:0jackson:

----------


## MickeyKnox

:Welcome:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Ttt  :Smilie:

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

:Bbbump:

----------


## iSwanson

> i don't know if you can edit titles or not but putting "first cycle" in there would make it easier for search purposes. 
> 
> some people can't spell beginner and others might chafe at the thought of being considered one haha.


If they can't spell beginner or at least look it up on google they don't need to messing with their bodies chemistry.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Ttt.  :Smilie:

----------


## Drops

Nice thread. Is it ok to store insulin pins with 250iu HCG in refridgerator for the entire cycle? Also isn't it better to run Adex all the way with the HCG?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Nice thread. Is it ok to store insulin pins with 250iu HCG in refridgerator for the entire cycle? Also isn't it better to run Adex all the way with the HCG?


Ive never stored hCG in pins for the entire length of a cycle. I do, howver, freeze half my hCG in slin pins and store them in the freezer in a tupperware container sothat my hCG is fresh for my entire cycle. I do this for TRT as well. 

Your AI should be used on cycle the entire time. The only caveat is that you may begin your AI a wk or two into your cycle when using long esters.  :Smilie:

----------


## panntastic

> Nice thread. Is it ok to store insulin pins with 250iu HCG in refridgerator for the entire cycle? Also isn't it better to run Adex all the way with the HCG?


I personally wouldn't as the ba in the bac water may effect the stopper in the slin pin

----------


## Drops

> Ive never stored hCG in pins for the entire length of a cycle. I do, howver, freeze half my hCG in slin pins and store them in the freezer in a tupperware container sothat my hCG is fresh for my entire cycle. I do this for TRT as well. 
> 
> Your AI should be used on cycle the entire time. The only caveat is that you may begin your AI a wk or two into your cycle when using long esters.


Thanks for replying

Would there be a problem in freezing HCG pins for the entire cycle?

I will be taking Arimidex (0.5 mg eod) for my entire cycle, just wondering if it's ok to use it in the 2 weeks (with HCG) before PCT starts, in case of HCG aromatizing?

Edit - like so:

Wk 1-10 Testosterone enanthate = 250 mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-12.5 Arimidex .25mg eod – monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Thanks for replying
> 
> I'll be running Arimidex (0.5 mg eod) for my entire cycle, just wondering if it's ok to use it in the 2 weeks (with HCG ) before PCT starts, in case of HCG aromatizing?
> 
> Edit - like so:
> 
> Wk 1-10 Testosterone enanthate = 250 mg twice/wk e3.5d
> Wk 1-12.5 Arimidex .25mg eod  monitor and adjust accordingly.
> Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection.


I would halt your AI the last wk of your cycle at the end of wk 10. 

As the testosterone leaves your system, your E2 should drop accordingly. Some guys run their AI into the first wk of their 2 wk waiting period (with long esters), but that's entirely up to you.

----------


## Drops

> I would halt your AI the last wk of your cycle at the end of wk 10. 
> 
> As the testosterone leaves your system, your E2 should drop accordingly. Some guys run their AI into the first wk of their 2 wk waiting period (with long esters), but that's entirely up to you.


All right, thanks mate.

As for HCG storage, would it be okay to store HCG pins in the freezer for the entire cycle?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> All right, thanks mate.
> 
> As for HCG storage, *would it be okay to store HCG pins in the freezer for the entire cycle*?


You can if you like, but its not necessary. 

If you're reconstituting 5k of lyophilized hCG, load and freeze half your pins. Leave the remaining reconstituted liquid in the refrigerator and simply use it as required.

OR, load them all and freeze them if that's more convenient. Either way is fine.  :Smilie:

----------


## Drops

> You can if you like, but its not necessary. 
> 
> If you're reconstituting 5k of lyophilized hCG , load and freeze half your pins. Leave the remaining reconstituted liquid in the refrigerator and simply use it as required.
> 
> OR, load them all and freeze them if that's more convenient. Either way is fine.


Cool, thanks man.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Youre welcome.

----------


## MickeyKnox

First page.. :Smilie:

----------


## lovbyts

ttt...

----------


## MickeyKnox

Cycles have been updated to reflect new Aromasin (AI) protocols.  :Smilie:

----------


## Knockout_Power

bump

----------


## THE HOGG

So the ai changed from eod to ed. Correct? Also, does hcg have to be stored cold after reconstitution? I recon'd mine a week ago and have not had it in the fridge. Did I screw up?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> So *the ai changed from eod to ed. Correct?* Also, does hcg have to be stored cold after reconstitution? I recon'd mine a week ago and have not had it in the fridge. Did I screw up?


Only for Aromasin . 

Yes, refrigerate after you reconstitute hCG . Does it still working?

----------


## THE HOGG

> Only for Aromasin . 
> 
> Yes, refrigerate after you reconstitute hCG. Does it still working?


How do I know if its still working?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> How do I know if its still working?


You wont experience testicular atrophy if your hCG is working properly.

----------


## THE HOGG

Well lets hope its still working. :Wink/Grin:  No problems so far. Today was my third pin. Will go home and put it in the fridge tonight for sure..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump for the HOGG and testicles..

----------


## human project

With all the hcg threads you think there would be at least one warning people of how many girls you can knock up with one run of hcg.... I've been going hard for a while and hcg has me with two kids any day....

----------


## human project

> With all the hcg threads you think there would be at least one warning people of how many girls you can knock up with one run of hcg.... I've been going hard for a while and hcg has me with two kids any day....


Btw there two different moms...

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Btw there two different moms...


Ahh quit yer braggin' ya stud muffin..lol

----------


## THE HOGG

> Bump for the HOGG and testicles..


Haha.. Theyre STILL hanging low and swinging free so all is still GOOD. :Haha: 
I cant believe in all my reading that I missed that you ae supposed to refrigerate HCG .

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Haha.. Theyre STILL hanging low and swinging free so all is still GOOD.
> I cant believe in all my reading that I missed that you ae supposed to refrigerate HCG.


That's good to hear bro! Keep an eye on them.  :Smilie:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## speedfreak

Mickey. Should I be doing an AI ED now for my mild cycle. If you can comment on my thread you posted on would be greatly appreciated

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mickey. Should I be doing an AI ED now for my mild cycle. If you can comment on my thread you posted on would be greatly appreciated


Depends on which AI you've chosen. Ill take a look at your thread..

----------


## Papiriqui

Mick when you say next to the AI, monitor accordingly, what exactly are you referring to?? This might have been asked before, not sure but i was wondering, specially for someone who has never done a cycle or done a cycle without an AI or PCT. What do you look for when monitoring an AI??

----------


## AliYousaf

> Option 2. Long Ester
> 
> Beginners Cycles + (with an Oral)
> 
> Option 1, Long Ester
> 
> Wk 1-12 Testosterone Enanthate = 250mg twice/wk e3.5d
> Wk 1-4 Dianabol (Dbol ) = 30mg/day *half life is 4-6hrs
> Wk 1-12 Aromasin 10mg ED - monitor and adjust accordingly.
> ...


Mickey, great post with tons of info thanks. 
I will start sometime in next two months . My question is that I can get hCG in 500iu bottle only and Armidex (not Aromas in) in 1mg tabs only. How do you recommend adjusting these dosages with the cycle quoted above?

----------


## Ole kristian

Option 1. Long Ester

Wk 1-10 Testosterone Cypionate = 200mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-10 Arimidex .25mg EOD  monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection.

PCT
Begins wk 13 to wk 17

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Test C 2x a week means this cycle is 400mg a week right?
any danger if a person inject 250mg instead of 200mg? 
with a good diet, good restitution and a good work out plan, how much can you gain on this cycle? 
would German volume traning be a bad work out plan?

Nice job btw.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mick when you say next to the AI, monitor accordingly, what exactly are you referring to?? This might have been asked before, not sure but i was wondering, specially for someone who has never done a cycle or done a cycle without an AI or PCT. What do you look for when monitoring an AI??


What im referring to is the visual and felt sides that are associated with rising or falling Estrogen. Example: acne, erectile dysfunction, water retention, mood..ect. Im able to adjust my AI using these sides as i now know my body fairly well. 

However, this isn't etched in stone. Bloodwork is *very important* and should not be substituted for "signs."




> Mickey, great post with tons of info thanks. 
> I will start sometime in next two months . My question is that I can get hCG in 500iu bottle only and Armidex (not Aromas in) in 1mg tabs only. How do you recommend adjusting these dosages with the cycle quoted above?


Invest in a pill splitter and dose your Adex .25 EOD to begin. Monitor accordingly, preferably with bloodwork. 




> Option 1. Long Ester
> 
> Wk 1-10 Testosterone Cypionate = 200mg twice/wk e3.5d
> Wk 1-10 Arimidex .25mg EOD – monitor and adjust accordingly.
> Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection.
> 
> PCT
> Begins wk 13 to wk 17
> 
> ...


Thanks Kristian. It was a collective effort on behave of the the Forum.  :Smilie: 

No problem using 250mg 2/wk at all. 

Hard to predict your gains - everyone is different. But on average everything being on par and equal, id say anywhere from 15-25lbs - especially if its your first cycle. But diet is paramount with any cycle, and this is what determines your weight gain, not pills or oils.

----------


## Ole kristian

So i found Option 1. Long Ester abit intresting but i have 2 questions

1.
Can i use Test Prop instead of Test C? shorter halftime is safer in case of side effects, or am i wrong? 

2.
Can someone look up so i havent missunderstood anything?

I have read about Arimidex , nolva, clomid, HCG , testosteron e,c and prop, injection, hormone abusement in general. I know its alot more variabels that is important to know about, but right now im focusing on learning about the drug abusement. 

Testosteron Cypionate like all testosterone compounds carries a high level of aromatase activity; aromatization referring to the conversion of testosterone into estrogen. As estrogen levels rise, this can lead to gynecomastia , to prevent this Arimidex can be used. Testosterone in general aslo shutdown you testosteron production in your testicels, this can be prevented by using HCG. After cycle is done the body is abit «messed up» and a PCT is necessary to help the body to go back to normal. In this cycle nolva and clomid is used for PCT (as mickeyknox recommend). To optimaize your health, a bloodtest is recommended, a bloodtest shows your body's level of different hormones and other stuff that is necessary to know for regulating your drug inntake. If anything feels wrong check it up and/or ask for help on the forum or the doc.

Injection
inject the testosterone into the syringe, tip it to make sure no bubles are in the syringe. Sterilize the injection spot, Inject the needle about 5 cm in your butt, make sure you didnt miss by pull up the pump and see if it is any blood (if it is, you need to start over), slowly inject the testosterone and take the needle out. 

Exept the diet and workout plan, what else should I read about? This is a intresting field but its hard to know were to start, hormones in general is a very complex field... im intressted in trying a testosterone only cycle. After reading abit on this forum I think it is smart to read even more about this before I get started.

----------


## Papiriqui

I have to look into BW prices since my insurance only covers 2 a yr which i want to use for before and after!

----------


## AliYousaf

> Mickey, great post with tons of info thanks.
> I will start sometime in next two months . My question is that I can get hCG in 500iu bottle only and Armidex (not Aromas in) in 1mg tabs only. How do you recommend adjusting these dosages with the cycle quoted above?


Thanks for the advice on investing in a splitter Mickey. My confusion on hCG remains. I can only get 500iu vials. Can you tell if its ok to refrigerate the hCG mixture for another use like 250iu once and 250iu another day of the week. And I guess the exact half dosage of 250 iu for one time use does not matter especially if I am using twice a week as its gonna be 500iu per week anyway. Is this right ??

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> So i found Option 1. Long Ester abit intresting but i have 2 questions
> 
> 1.
> Can i use Test Prop instead of Test C? shorter halftime is safer in case of side effects, or am i wrong? The ester has little bearing on potential side effects. The main differences with Prop are, shorter wait time for recovery, but frequent pinning. 
> 
> 2.
> Can someone look up so i havent missunderstood anything?
> 
> I have read about Arimidex , nolva, clomid, HCG , testosteron e,c and prop, injection, hormone abusement in general. I know its alot more variabels that is important to know about, but right now im focusing on learning about the drug abusement. 
> ...


Everything you just wrote is perfect. Check these links out. They will confirm and provide additional tips and suggestions. 

*Injection Techniques and Questions*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...e#.UMeFJazX_fs





> Thanks for the advice on investing in a splitter Mickey. My confusion on hCG remains. I can only get 500iu vials. Can you tell if its ok to refrigerate the hCG mixture for another use like 250iu once and 250iu another day of the week. And I guess the exact half dosage of 250 iu for one time use does not matter especially if I am using twice a week as its gonna be 500iu per week anyway. Is this right ??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Five *hundred* or five *thousand*? Just making sure we're on the same page.

Ive never seen 500iu vials. But if that's what you have, i would mix .5ml and use .25 on the slin to keep it simple and then each pin = 250iu. 

And yes, twice per wk @ 250iu.

----------


## Toki

Killer information

----------


## Welsy23

I'm a newbie and proud....umm never mind because I don't know shite about any of this so thank you Mickey. Now I just need to learn all the lingo and decipher the acronyms so I know what the hell you're all referring to.

----------


## AliYousaf

> Five *hundred* or five *thousand*? Just making sure we're on the same page.
> 
> Ive never seen 500iu vials. But if that's what you have, i would mix .5ml and use .25 on the slin to keep it simple and then each pin = 250iu. 
> 
> And yes, twice per wk @ 250iu.



Shit, My bad.. its 5000iu.. and I am even more confused now.. I mean how to get a 250iu out of it for one time. I have no idea. I am hoping that once its been mixed with the supplied water it can be refrigerated for further use. ??? 5000iu means 20 Shots per vial ...Is that right ???

----------


## Gaspaco

Add 2ml of bw to your powder!

0.10ml = 250iu

----------


## AliYousaf

> Add 2ml of bw to your powder!
> 
> 0.10ml = 250iu


My BW that came with it in a separate vial is 1 ml. In total. ..

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I'm a newbie and proud....umm never mind because I don't know shite about any of this so thank you Mickey. Now I just need to learn all the lingo and decipher the acronyms so I know what the hell you're all referring to.


*List of common Abbreviations*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...!#.UTn-1TcUX0E




> Shit, My bad.. its 5000iu.. and I am even more confused now.. I mean how to get a 250iu out of it for one time. I have no idea. I am hoping that once its been mixed with the supplied water it can be refrigerated for further use. ??? 5000iu means 20 Shots per vial ...Is that right ???


LIke Gaspaco suggested, add 2 ml of Bac Water and then .10 on your slin pin will = 250iu. 

If you only have one ml BW, buy some more - its easy to find just do a search. Nobody fakes Bac Water. 

After you have reconstituted your hCG , it will be good for about 50 days or so.

----------


## Ole kristian

two more questions...

1st 
Why is it recommended to use both clomid and nolva in PCT, after some reading it looks like they pretty much do the same thing and some websites tells you to only chose one of them.

2nd
why do you have to take PCT if you use HCG ? 

oh, and by the way... im here to learn, i like detailed answers or liks to trustwordy information. Thanks!

----------


## MickeyKnox

> two more questions...
> 
> 1st 
> Why is it recommended to use both clomid and nolva in PCT, after some reading it looks like they pretty much do the same thing and some websites tells you to only chose one of them.
> 
> 2nd
> why do you have to take PCT if you use HCG ? 
> 
> oh, and by the way... im here to learn, i like detailed answers or liks to trustwordy information. Thanks!


*Why HCG is So Important*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread....#.UIlhVWfX_ft

*SERM, AI Definition*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-AI-Definition


“The following explains *why it is prudent to use BOTH Nolvadex and Clomid together in your PCT*. It is by Dr Scally - probably the foremost expert in the United States on this topic.” JimmyInk’dUp.

Med Hypotheses. 2009 Jun;72(6):723-8. Epub 2009 Feb 23.
Anabolic steroid -induced hypogonadism--towards a unified hypothesis of anabolic steroid action.
Tan RS, Scally MC.

Source
HPT/Axis Inc., 1660 Beaconshire Road, Houston, TX 77077, USA.

*Abstract*

Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism (ASIH) is the functional incompetence of the testes with subnormal or impaired production of testosterone and/or spermatozoa due to administration of androgens or anabolic steroids . Anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS), both prescription and nonprescription, use is a cause of ASIH. Current AAS use includes prescribing for wasting associated conditions. Nonprescription AAS use is also believed to lead to AAS dependency or addiction. Together these two uses account for more than four million males taking AAS in one form or another for a limited duration. While both of these uses deal with the effects of AAS administration they do not account for the period after AAS cessation. The signs and symptoms of ASIH directly impact the observation of an increase in muscle mass and muscle strength from AAS administration and also reflect what is believed to demonstrate AAS dependency. More significantly, AAS prescribing after cessation adds the comorbid condition of hypogonadism to their already existing chronic illness. ASIH is critical towards any future planned use of AAS or similar compound to effect positive changes in muscle mass and muscle strength as well as an understanding for what has been termed anabolic steroid dependency. The further understanding and treatments that mitigate or prevent ASIH could contribute to androgen therapies for wasting associated diseases and stopping nonprescription AAS use. This paper proposes a unified hypothesis that the net effects for anabolic steroid administration must necessarily include the period after their cessation or ASIH.

PMID: 19231088 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 

*Future treatments:*

A treatment goal of HPTA restoration will have its basis in the regulation and control of testosterone production. The HPTA has two components, both spermatogenesis and testosterone production.

In males, luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion by the pituitary positively stimulates testicular testosterone (T) production; follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) stimulates testicular spermatozoa production. The pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus stimulates LH and FSH secretion. In general, absent FSH, there is no spermatozoa production; absent LH, there is no testosterone production. Regulation of the secretion of GnRH, FSH, and LH occurs partially by the negative feedback of testosterone and estradiol at the level of the hypothalamo-pituitary. Estradiol has a much larger, inhibitory effect than testosterone, being 200-fold more effective in suppressing LHsecretion.

In the case of ASIH, where the individual suffers from functional hypogonadism and the belief for eventual return of function, treatment is directed at HPTA restoration. A medical quandary for physicians presented with hypogonadal patients secondary to AAS administration is there is currently no FDA approved drug to restore
HPTA function. Standard treatment to this point has been testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ), conservative therapy (‘‘watchful waiting” or ‘‘do nothing”), or off-label prescribing of aromatase inhibitors or selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERM).

The primary drawback of testosterone replacement and hCG administration is that this therapy is infinite in nature. These treatments will remedy the signs and symptoms associated with hypogonadism, but do not alleviate the need for a life-long commitment to therapy. Further, administration serves to further HPTA suppression.

Conservative therapy (‘‘watchful waiting” or ‘‘do nothing”) is the probably worst case option as this does nothing to treat the patient with ASIH. Also, conservative therapy will have the undesirable result of the nonprescription AAS user to return to AAS use as a means to avoid ASIH signs and symptoms.

The aromatase inhibitors demonstrate the ability to cause an elevation of the gonadotropins and secondarily serum testosterone [62]. The administration of SERMs is a common treatment in attempts to restore the HPTA because they increase LH secretion from the pituitary that leads to increased local testosterone production
[63–67].

Guay has used clomiphene citrate as therapy for erection dysfunction and secondary hypogonadism. Patients received clomiphene citrate 50 mg per day for 4 months in an attempt to raise their testosterone level [68]. Clomiphene has been reported in a case study to reverse andropause secondary to anabolic–androgenic steroid use [69]. The patient received clomiphene citrate 50 mg twice per day in an attempt to raise his testosterone level. The patient when followed up after two months had a relapse, tiredness and loss of libido, after discontinuing clomiphene citrate. There are case study reports demonstrating the effectiveness of the combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen in HPTA restoration after stopping AAS administration [70–73]. *Clomiphene is a mixture of the trans (enclomiphene) and is (zuclomiphene) enantiomers, which have opposite effects upon the estradiol receptor [74]. Enclomiphene is an estradiol antagonist, while zuclomiphene is an estradiol agonist. The addition of tamoxifen to clomiphene might be expected to increase the overall antagonism of the estradiol receptor.
*

_"Clomiphene is an antiestrogen, which decreases the estrogen effect in the body. It has a dual effect by stimulating the hypothalamic pituitary area and it has an antiestrogenic effect, so that it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body. Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen; it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary, allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administering them together produces an elevation of LH and secondary gonadal sex hormones. "_ *Dr Michael Scally*

----------


## Ole kristian

this will take me a while to understand, good for me that i got all weekend! thanks for the good answere, i guess you know alot about hormones. do you study this field or something?

----------


## Etbthree

good info here, thanks

----------


## Etbthree

:Bbbump:

----------


## AliYousaf

I will start my cycle in a month, have done my research and am quite sure I have done all my homework. A detailed article on the main website on "how to get off steroid " states that only one SERM is required during a PCT and suggests to save Al's for extreme like when Gyno starts to appear.. 
I am hoping the recommended Cycles & PCT by OP will be enough to prevent Gyno from even appearing.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> I will start my cycle in a month, have done my research and am quite sure I have done all my homework. A detailed article on the main website on "how to get off steroid " states that only one SERM is required during a PCT and suggests to save Al's for extreme like when Gyno starts to appear.. 
> *I am hoping the recommended Cycles & PCT by OP will be enough to prevent Gyno from even appearing.
> *
> Sent from my iPhone.


Some information is a bit outdated but Staff are working on it.

Everything you read in THIS thread is updated and current. Please make sure you run your AI on cycle and not "save it for gyno." PCT includes Nolva AND Clomid.

----------


## AliYousaf

Got it Mickey :-) Thanks a lot. I am sure lots of new people do their research via this website. It should be updated soon in the greater good of people.
And BTW I just bought extra 20 ml of Bac water Sodium Chloride for my hCG . The water is simply an OTC I am not sure why won't some people find it as discussed previously in this thread.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Is it 0.9% Sodium Chloride, or Bacteriostatic Water? 

BW is not sold over the counter in Canada, or the USA i believe. However, you're located in Pakistan so the laws are likely different there.

----------


## AliYousaf

> Is it 0.9% Sodium Chloride, or Bacteriostatic Water?
> 
> BW is not sold over the counter in Canada, or the USA i believe. However, you're located in Pakistan so the laws are likely different there.


It's 0.9% Sodium Chloride. I got it so easily at an OTC store I was thinking what do guys worry about but then you are right. It could be due to local laws or something.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## ichad

BW is sold over counter in Canada. Same with pins.

----------


## Armykid93

Always love coming back and reading this. Great info.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> BW is sold over counter in Canada. Same with pins.


Really? Not in my city. Why have i not heard of any Canadian, on here up until now, purchasing BW over the counter? I assumed it was the same everywhere in Canada. Im not doubting you, Im simply surprised. 

Do you mind me asking where you purchased your BW? Shoppers, Walmart, Rexall?

Thanks for the heads up!

----------


## MickeyKnox

> It's 0.9% Sodium Chloride. I got it so easily at an OTC store I was thinking what do guys worry about but then you are right. It could be due to local laws or something.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Dont use 0.9% Sodium Chloride. Pick up some Bacteriostatic Water.  :Smilie:

----------


## OnTheSauce

If u can find Bacteriostatic sodium chloride that works as well

----------


## MickeyKnox

> If u can find Bacteriostatic sodium chloride that works as well


Never used it. I use BW exclusively.

----------


## AliYousaf

> Dont use 0.9% Sodium Chloride. Pick up some Bacteriostatic Water.


Finding bac water isn't as much easy as it was with Sodium Chloride. I have been looking around all day today and no one has it. Sodium chloride was piece of cake to find. Now what are my options ? Home made Bac water ?? I am afraid I ll ever find pure alcohol to begin with.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## >Good Luck<

> Finding bac water isn't as much easy as it was with Sodium Chloride. I have been looking around all day today and no one has it. Sodium chloride was piece of cake to find. Now what are my options ? Home made Bac water ?? I am afraid I ll ever find pure alcohol to begin with.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


If you use anything but bacteriostatic water, you can expect your Hcg to lose potency fast. I believe you must use what you need and discard the rest after FIRST injection...

Bac water is easy to find, just locate a medical supply shop- not a regular pharmacy

----------


## OnTheSauce

> If you use anything but bacteriostatic water, you can expect your Hcg to lose potency fast. I believe you must use what you need and discard the rest after FIRST injection...
> 
> Bac water is easy to find, just locate a medical supply shop- not a regular pharmacy


You know sodium chloride is saline solution right? Bacteriostatic sodium chloride is more than fine.

----------


## OnTheSauce

http://www.mountainside-medical.com/...ter-30-ml.html

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Finding bac water isn't as much easy as it was with Sodium Chloride. I have been looking around all day today and no one has it. Sodium chloride was piece of cake to find. Now what are my options ? Home made Bac water ?? I am afraid I ll ever find pure alcohol to begin with.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


If you can find the components to make it yourself, here is the recipe..


*Homemade Bac Water*

99ml Distilled Water
1ml Benzyl Alcohol
1- .2 micron syringe filter
1- 100ml sterile vial
1- 20ml syringe

1. Boil water, then add BA.
2. Pull water/BA mixture into syringe.
3. Attach filter to syringe with a needle and insert into sterile vial.
4. Insert another needle into Vial to release air pressure as you filter water/BA mixture into *sterile vial.*

----------


## AliYousaf

> http://www.mountainside-medical.com/...ter-30-ml.html


Thanks for the link mate. Unfortunately these guys don't ship to my location. Just finished writing to them inquiring why?? Someone told me to visit hospital pharmacies and damn I did that too. Visited a couple of hospitals in my area to find none.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## AliYousaf

> If you use anything but bacteriostatic water, you can expect your Hcg to lose potency fast. I believe you must use what you need and discard the rest after FIRST injection...
> 
> Bac water is easy to find, just locate a medical supply shop- not a regular pharmacy


Locating medical supply shops is on my priority list now :-)

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

After the last few days, this really needs to stay on the first page.

----------


## >Good Luck<

> After the last few days, this really needs to stay on the first page.


Agreed! To the top!

----------


## AliYousaf

Agreed totally :-)

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## >Good Luck<

Hey noobs, look here!

----------


## Armykid93

Bump

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## ichad

> Really? Not in my city. Why have i not heard of any Canadian, on here up until now, purchasing BW over the counter? I assumed it was the same everywhere in Canada. Im not doubting you, Im simply surprised.
> 
> Do you mind me asking where you purchased your BW? Shoppers, Walmart, Rexall?
> 
> Thanks for the heads up!


At a privately owned pharmacy. I also had no luck at Walmart etc.

----------


## ichad

Honestly I would grab a phone book and phone around to the pharmacy in your area. Much better than getting shot down in person.

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## MickeyKnox

> At a privately owned pharmacy. I also had no luck at Walmart etc.





> Honestly I would grab a phone book and phone around to the pharmacy in your area. Much better than getting shot down in person.


Thats very interesting that Shoppers Drug Mart requires an Rx but a privately owned Pharmacy doesn't. 

Regardless, i have tons now and when it's gone, i'll simply make my own. 

Thanks for tip!

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## AliYousaf

And Bump

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## adam123456

Hey man i got my d bol and testo luck thati found this thred, I need go get ahold of hcg and hcg and also armomasim and clomid if it is needed but I got no ide how.. I was planing on starting my cycle soon

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Hey man i got my d bol and testo luck thati found this thred, I need go get ahold of hcg and hcg and also armomasim and clomid if it is needed but I got no ide how.. I was planing on starting my cycle soon


The site sponsor above AR-R .com will have all that and more, including pins, Nolva Clomid, Aromasin ..ect. 

Nolva = Liquid Tamox

Clomid = Liquid Clomi

Aromasin = Liquid Stane

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## AliYousaf

This is knowledge. 

Bump...

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## AliYousaf

Yo.. Mickey bro!! I have given up on Bac Water. The link some one provided in this thread , they won't send it to my region. I have lost hope on Bac thing.Would have been a good idea to use one vial of hCG for as much shots as possible during my cycle but apparently it doesn't seem like happening. 
Any suggestions ?

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Yo.. Mickey bro!! I have given up on Bac Water. The link some one provided in this thread , they won't send it to my region. I have lost hope on Bac thing.Would have been a good idea to use one vial of hCG for as much shots as possible during my cycle but apparently it doesn't seem like happening. 
> Any suggestions ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


What about making your own?? Can you locate these items? AR-R .com has everything except water and alcohol. 

*Homemade Bac Water*

99ml Distilled Water
1ml Benzyl Alcohol
1- .2 micron syringe filter
1- 100ml sterile vial
1- 20ml syringe

1. Boil water, then add BA.
2. Pull water/BA mixture into syringe.
3. Attach filter to syringe with a needle and insert into sterile vial.
4. Insert another needle into Vial to release air pressure as you filter water/BA mixture into *sterile vial.*

----------


## jaswave125

Hi mickey thanks for all of this information it really helped a newbie like me i would like to thank you for the time and effort you put in here now im a newbie with roids but iv been doing some research. And i would like to ask some questions here they go :

1. In your sample cycle 1 and 2 I see that you advise to run test cyp at 10 weeks and test enanthate at 12 weeks i was wondering why? Aren't they basically the same? 

2. I'v been reading a lot about hcg and test enanthate almost all of them suggest that i drop hcg 1 week after I drop the test in your sample cycle it run for 2.5 weeks more. Can you clarify to me why? 

3. If i choose to use test enanthate or cyp which usually kicks in around 3
rd week bec its a long ester shouldn't I start hcg in the 3rd week? The reason i asked this is again iv read that one should not run hcg for longer than 8weeks as it could harm your natural test production. 

This are my personal questions and feel free the correct me sir. 

Thanks!

----------


## MickeyKnox

1. Yes they are very similar. That was simply to illustrate that you could run a ten wk cycle or twelve. Some new members think that if you run a ten wk cycle the PCT changes or you dont need an AI or..ect. And this of course, is not the case.  :Smilie: 

2. I think Swifto said it best when i asked him that same question. This was his response to me,"_...when we inject HCG endogenous testosterone spikes twice, not once. It spikes it the first time almost immediately and then the larger spike in Test is around 72 hours. During this period there is a leydig cell refractory period, where the leydig cells are non-responsive. We don't want to be going into PCT (even for a few days) with our leydig cells un-responsive and testes unable to increase Test.

This refractory period is over if we do our final injection more than 4-5 days out from PCT. The added endogenous Test, if we went into PCT, may also cause androgen and estrogen inhibition at the hypothalamus if used too close to PCT IMO as well.

Endogenous LH levels can rise fairly quickly during PCT, in days, not weeks too."_

3. Anytime you introduce supra physical amounts of exogenous testosterone into the body, you halt your natural test production. Using an analog like hCG to mimic the LH is one of the only sure ways to continue endogenous testosterone production which prevents testicular atrophy. 

I haven't read about this claim of yours. But if you provide a link i'll be more than happy to look it over - and then formulate my own opinion and share it with you, if you like. Until then, this claim is unsubstantiated, for me at least.  :Smilie:

----------


## Tron3219

> 1. Yes they are very similar. That was simply to illustrate that you could run a ten wk cycle or twelve. Some new members think that if you run a ten wk cycle the PCT changes or you dont need an AI or..ect. And this of course, is not the case. 
> 
> 2. I think Swifto said it best when i asked him that same question. This was his response to me,"_...when we inject HCG endogenous testosterone spikes twice, not once. It spikes it the first time almost immediately and then the larger spike in Test is around 72 hours. During this period there is a leydig cell refractory period, where the leydig cells are non-responsive. We don't want to be going into PCT (even for a few days) with our leydig cells un-responsive and testes unable to increase Test.
> 
> This refractory period is over if we do our final injection more than 4-5 days out from PCT. The added endogenous Test, if we went into PCT, may also cause androgen and estrogen inhibition at the hypothalamus if used too close to PCT IMO as well.
> 
> Endogenous LH levels can rise fairly quickly during PCT, in days, not weeks too."_
> 
> 3. Anytime you introduce supra physical amounts of exogenous testosterone into the body, you halt your natural test production. Using an analog like hCG to mimic the LH is one of the only sure ways to continue endogenous testosterone production which prevents testicular atrophy. 
> ...


if it spikes twice, once and then 72 hours later, why is the common protocol 250 x 2 a week. i know in a perfect world itd be an injections at the 84th hour, but thats not always possible and there is likely often an overlap and the intitial shot could be rendered useless becuase the leydig cells are unresponsive. why isnt the protocol 250 e4d to prevent ANY overlap and ensure all shots are producing BOTH spikes.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> if it spikes twice, once and then 72 hours later, why is the common protocol 250 x 2 a week. i know in a perfect world itd be an injections at the 84th hour, but thats not always possible and there is likely often an overlap and the intitial shot could be rendered useless becuase the leydig cells are unresponsive. why isnt the protocol 250 e4d to prevent ANY overlap and ensure all shots are producing BOTH spikes.


From what i understand, I dont think the second spike is that significant to warrant a longer inject protocol as the half life is 33 hours.

----------


## Tron3219

> From what i understand, I dont think the second spike is that significant to warrant a longer inject protocol as the half life is 33 hours.


But you stated that during that 72 hour period the leydig cells are non responsive. If they are non responsive within that 72 hours, the first spike from the second shot (if inside the 72h mark from the first shot) would b pointless because the leydig cells are non responsive. Even if they are responsive but desensitized (imagine its not loke a light switch) your not getting full response from the lh analog on the leydig cells. But of course we may b talking about second shot at 68-70 hours. Can imagine it'd be that detrimental huh?

-TroN-

----------


## MickeyKnox

> But you stated that during that 72 hour period the leydig cells are non responsive. If they are non responsive within that 72 hours, the first spike from the second shot (if inside the 72h mark from the first shot) would b pointless because the leydig cells are non responsive. Even if they are responsive but desensitized (imagine its not loke a light switch) your not getting full response from the lh analog on the leydig cells. But of course we may b talking about second shot at 68-70 hours. Can imagine it'd be that detrimental huh?
> 
> -TroN-


The second shot doesn't take place for 84 hours, not 72 (for me E3.5D) But for some reason my testies are full all the time, and i have been running this protocol for a long time (TRT patient) So im not sure what to say there, to be perfectly honest Tron. I haven't really dig my heels in that deep because this protocol works very well. 

If you run across something in your research, please let me know.  :Smilie:

----------


## Tron3219

> The second shot doesn't take place for 84 hours, not 72 (for me E3.5D) But for some reason my testies are full all the time, and i have been running this protocol for a long time (TRT patient) So im not sure what to say there, to be perfectly honest Tron. I haven't really dig my heels in that deep because this protocol works very well.
> 
> If you run across something in your research, please let me know.


Like I said before, in a perfect world it would take place at 84h, but say for me, I have a crazy ass schedule and can't always get the 84 hour mark. The chance may b closer to 72 or 96. Which is why I usually do it every 4th morning. Just wondering if there was any downfall to this that u knew of. I had read that before (the two spikes in 72h) and just decided to go every 4th morning. I was more or less seeing what you had to say about it since te opportunity arose. Plus figured it may help some of the noobs (or confuse them? Lol) with a lil discussion.

-TroN-

----------


## MickeyKnox

Good question. 

Whats even more peculiar is, regardless of whether im on TRT or on cycle, my hCG protocol never changes. Go figure.. :Smilie:

----------


## jaswave125

> 1. Yes they are very similar. That was simply to illustrate that you could run a ten wk cycle or twelve. Some new members think that if you run a ten wk cycle the PCT changes or you dont need an AI or..ect. And this of course, is not the case. 
> 
> 2. I think Swifto said it best when i asked him that same question. This was his response to me,"_...when we inject HCG endogenous testosterone spikes twice, not once. It spikes it the first time almost immediately and then the larger spike in Test is around 72 hours. During this period there is a leydig cell refractory period, where the leydig cells are non-responsive. We don't want to be going into PCT (even for a few days) with our leydig cells un-responsive and testes unable to increase Test.
> 
> This refractory period is over if we do our final injection more than 4-5 days out from PCT. The added endogenous Test, if we went into PCT, may also cause androgen and estrogen inhibition at the hypothalamus if used too close to PCT IMO as well.
> 
> Endogenous LH levels can rise fairly quickly during PCT, in days, not weeks too."_
> 
> 3. Anytime you introduce supra physical amounts of exogenous testosterone into the body, you halt your natural test production. Using an analog like hCG to mimic the LH is one of the only sure ways to continue endogenous testosterone production which prevents testicular atrophy. 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up for me more power! And i cant find where i read about it hahaha im currently in india and im going to buy my first cycle here from a reputable pharmacy. But im planning on taking it at the end of the year still got to learn a lot and have to get my diet straight it been messed up since im here.

----------


## bigZthedestroyer

Take it to the top for those who don't sleep

----------


## jaswave125

Mikey sir another question as my first test cycle how many weeks would you recomend on running it? 8 10 or 12? Thanks

----------


## Tron3219

> Mikey sir another question as my first test cycle how many weeks would you recomend on running it? 8 10 or 12? Thanks


What ester is the test your running? Prop? Enthenate? Cypionate ?

-TroN-

----------


## jaswave125

> What ester is the test your running? Prop? Enthenate? Cypionate ?
> 
> -TroN-


Im going to run test enanthate

----------


## Tron3219

> Im going to run test enanthate


10-12 weeks is best for test e. IF I run test e, I run it for 12 weeks. After about 12 weeks the gains tend to slow down. 10 weeks would still show good gains, depending on diet and training of course. May help you recover a bit easier, and lower your time off period by 2 weeks as well, providing blood work is a-ok. Recommend you get bloodwork before you start as well to get a baseline.

-TroN-

----------


## mr.lenny

Hi guys..so am new to AAS I taken my body for 9years to where am at! 
185lbs 30y/o first cycle did research for about a year before, and you guys help me a lot. With your advice am doing test cypionate 250x2week= 500mg, now am in my second week haven't felt or seen negative side effects just began to feel a hardening effect or maybe it's a placebo effect! Lol now I know it's a long ester so, and I should be seeing a change in week 5,6,7,8 since am doing a slingshot program, it's just hard to do less reps and keep it at a 9- 12 rep per body part,am use to working out till my body is sore, well changing my way of thinking! My question are:
In my second reload should I continue with test cyp or choose another test??? Like a short ester?? And I was told to keep with test and don't implement more AAS.? Any advice will be helpful. I always read the post and stickies here daily!!! ?

----------


## Tron3219

> Hi guys..so am new to AAS I taken my body for 9years to where am at!
> 185lbs 30y/o first cycle did research for about a year before, and you guys help me a lot. With your advice am doing test cypionate 250x2week= 500mg, now am in my second week haven't felt or seen negative side effects just began to feel a hardening effect or maybe it's a placebo effect! Lol now I know it's a long ester so, and I should be seeing a change in week 5,6,7,8 since am doing a slingshot program, it's just hard to do less reps and keep it at a 9- 12 rep per body part,am use to working out till my body is sore, well changing my way of thinking! My question are:
> In my second reload should I continue with test cyp or choose another test??? Like a short ester?? And I was told to keep with test and don't implement more AAS.? Any advice will be helpful. I always read the post and stickies here daily!!! ?


Are you on trt?
Is this ur first cycle? If so, this is more of an advanced technique and think you should try a simple cycle first....
For the shits if it...this is my answer...
And proper way would b to keep the same dosage of ass until your gains slow. More compounds=more sides. However for your second, maybe third, you can switch to a shorter ester plus the long ester. Run the trt dose cyp constantly and reload with prop. That way when you deload the prop is out in 3 days. 
Example:
1-20 : cyp @ 150mg
1-8 : prop @ 350mg
13-20 : prop @ 350mg

But for what it's worth, this is in the wrong thread, it should have it's own thread. Not really a beginners question.

-TroN-

----------


## mr.lenny

Thanks Tron for the reply, yes it's my first cycle! And am not on trt, what do you mean it's an advance cycle? I don't want to do orals not right now! I read treads that specify to do a short test in order to began your pct afterward, am doing the20 weeks and I was advices by many here to just do test first due to my background, And see how my body reacts to it then maybe by cycle 3 or 4 think of other AAS. I do thank you guys cause besides reading I do want to know more about it! And I know reading and actually using it and seen results manifest in my body it's totally different, cause like a newbie I got many AAS and almost used then like D-Bol, deca , tren A. But you guys help out a lot, so I listen and looking forward the results, any thing you or any one can recommend ??? Thanks

----------


## Tron3219

> Thanks Tron for the reply, yes it's my first cycle! And am not on trt, what do you mean it's an advance cycle? I don't want to do orals not right now! I read treads that specify to do a short test in order to began your pct afterward, am doing the20 weeks and I was advices by many here to just do test first due to my background, And see how my body reacts to it then maybe by cycle 3 or 4 think of other AAS. I do thank you guys cause besides reading I do want to know more about it! And I know reading and actually using it and seen results manifest in my body it's totally different, cause like a newbie I got many AAS and almost used then like D-Bol, deca, tren A. But you guys help out a lot, so I listen and looking forward the results, any thing you or any one can recommend ??? Thanks


I said advanced technique, meaning the slingshot. Reload and deload is basically a blast and cruise method. Even if you don't continue with test throughout and take 4 weeks off(not just the 2 Ronnie recommended) and do a pct, that's not enough time off to fully recover. Personally I recommend you do the 8 week prop or 10-12 week test e cycle, complete with ai, hcg an proper pct until you know how ur body reacts to aas and get a little better understanding of the compounds ur putting in ur body. Once u pull the blast and cruise trigger (or reload and deload) your pretty much signing up for trt.

-TroN-

----------


## mr.lenny

Ok, I understand, question; being that am on test cypionate can I finish the 10ml I should be done in 3 more weeks, then can I jump to test e or ?? Which one you recommend , can I do that or should I stop and just switch immediately? And my understanding is one is short ester therefore I should be pining eod, and how Much do you think? Sorry to pick your head but I want to learn..

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Hi guys..so am new to AAS I taken my body for 9years to where am at! 
> 185lbs 30y/o first cycle did research for about a year before, and you guys help me a lot. With your advice am doing test cypionate 250x2week= 500mg, now am in my second week haven't felt or seen negative side effects just began to feel a hardening effect or maybe it's a placebo effect! Lol now I know it's a long ester so, and I should be seeing a change in week 5,6,7,8 since am doing a slingshot program, it's just hard to do less reps and keep it at a 9- 12 rep per body part,am use to working out till my body is sore, well changing my way of thinking! My question are:
> In my second reload should I continue with test cyp or choose another test??? Like a short ester?? And I was told to keep with test and don't implement more AAS.? Any advice will be helpful. I always read the post and stickies here daily!!! ?





> Thanks Tron for the reply, yes it's my first cycle! And am not on trt, what do you mean it's an advance cycle? I don't want to do orals not right now! I read treads that specify to do a short test in order to began your pct afterward, am doing the20 weeks and I was advices by many here to just do test first due to my background, And see how my body reacts to it then maybe by cycle 3 or 4 think of other AAS. I do thank you guys cause besides reading I do want to know more about it! And I know reading and actually using it and seen results manifest in my body it's totally different, cause like a newbie I got many AAS and almost used then like D-Bol, deca, tren A. But you guys help out a lot, so I listen and looking forward the results, any thing you or any one can recommend ??? Thanks


Mr Lenny,

This is your first cycle. Do not complicate it with slingshots, or intermediate, or any other advanced cycle. *Just stick to whats contained in this thread.*  

Your first cycle is test ONLY and should begin with a long ester for 12 wks in order for you to experience injecting twice a wk and administering your AI and hCG correctly. This will also allow you to develop the senses required to understand your body and the reactions you will discover, not only with the added exogenous testosterone , but with the inevitable unwanted associated sides. 

I highly recommend your first cycle to be Option 2 Long Ester. This is a terrific first cycle, and contains all the elements previously mentioned. 

Good luck.


*Option 2. Long Ester*

Wk 1-12 Testosterone Enanthate = 250mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-12 Aromasin 10mg ED - monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1-14.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection.

PCT
Begins wk 15 to wk 19

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

----------


## Tron3219

> Ok, I understand, question; being that am on test cypionate can I finish the 10ml I should be done in 3 more weeks, then can I jump to test e or ?? Which one you recommend , can I do that or should I stop and just switch immediately? And my understanding is one is short ester therefore I should be pining eod, and how Much do you think? Sorry to pick your head but I want to learn..


Just stick with cyp of that's what u have. The difference between cyp and e is about a day and a half of active half life and 1 mg in ester weight.

Cypionate : 12 days active half life; 31mg per 100mg of hormone+ester
Enanthate : 10.5 days active half life; 30mg per 100mg per hormone+ester

Ester weight may be off by one or two tho...might b 31 and 32%...I'm rounding...I know it's like 31.69 or something like that...but virtually the same weight and not much difference on active half life.

-TroN-

----------


## mr.lenny

Thank you Mickyknox and Tron I will listen and stick with test only and see how my body reacts , i will gather more info and educate my self, later on the future do a slingshot, now should I continue working out as slingshot program which is one body part a day and no more then 9-12 sets and do the high intensity 8-10 all the way since am not doing a Deload anymore what do you guys in your experience should I do cause before AAS I will workout till my body part felt accomplish about 12-15 sets and I was mixing high intense with high reps, like a pyramid. What you guys recommend. You don't know how much you guys are helping me ?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Thank you Mickyknox and Tron I will listen and stick with test only and see how my body reacts , i will gather more info and educate my self, later on the future do a slingshot, now should I continue working out as slingshot program which is one body part a day and no more then 9-12 sets and do the high intensity 8-10 all the way since am not doing a Deload anymore what do you guys in your experience should I do cause before AAS I will workout till my body part felt accomplish about 12-15 sets and I was mixing high intense with high reps, like a pyramid. What you guys recommend. You don't know how much you guys are helping me ?


Never mind the slingshot and deload non sense. This is your first cycle. Concentrate on administering your Test, AI and hCG correctly. Thats all you need to focus on besides your diet, right now. Don't complicate this any further. 

Stick with what i outlined and you'll be fine. Get through your first cycle FIRST. You need to learn how to walk before you run.

----------


## mr.lenny

Into concern is not to overtrain and get the most from AAS,.. Cause AAS help you heal quicker for the next day! So am thinking train harm till I feel the pump,and not hurt myself afcouse!!! Question guys I read different articles that approaches overtraining as not a big deal stating "your body with good nutrition and rest will pass it, it never says to stop training! And to be honest the biggest guys I see are the ones who just got home from jail!!! They all tell me train every day night morning and during lunch they deff overtrain and don't have a great nutrition I said genetics but it can't be that all guys with great genetics go to jail??? Lol
My routine
Mon chest/tris
Tues rest
Wends back/bis
Thursday legs
Friday rest 
Sat shoulders/traps 
Rest
9-12 sets 8-10 reps per body part 
Rest between 1min to 1 1/2min 

Any changes I should do now that I won't do a slingshot method ??? Gracias!!!

----------


## MickeyKnox

Lenny, 

Start a thread in the Exercise/Workout Forum and you will get all the exercise help there. Thanks. 

*Workouts and Lifting techniques*

http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...S#.UHnjba7X_fs

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## ELBOZ

Is this a sticky yet..I have it bookmarked but if it's not it should be

----------


## Tron3219

No, but I agree it should b so MK doesn't have to bump it everyday! Lol

-TroN-

----------


## Provita

Sticky PLEEEEEEASE!!

----------


## AliYousaf

> Only for Aromasin .
> 
> Yes, refrigerate after you reconstitute hCG. Does it still working?


Mickey! How long can the hCG be refrigerated for when diluted with the supplied water. I have given up on BAC WATER.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## AliYousaf

> What im referring to is the visual and felt sides that are associated with rising or falling Estrogen. Example: acne, erectile dysfunction, water retention, mood..ect. Im able to adjust my AI using these sides as i now know my body fairly well.
> 
> However, this isn't etched in stone. Bloodwork is very important and should not be substituted for "signs."
> 
> Invest in a pill splitter and dose your Adex .25 EOD to begin. Monitor accordingly, preferably with bloodwork.


I am going through the entire thread once again. Pardon my questions. 
If the symptoms like acne, ED, water retention and mood swings occur, one should lower the dose of 10 mg Aromasin to how much ? 
And in the case of Gyno one should tapper up the dose to how much?
What I have understood by monitoring the blood work is, to get my Total Test and free test checked. Right ?? 
I have done some blood work last month. 
My PSA ( Prostate specific agent) was and still might be 0.215 ng/ml
Estradiol ( I couldn't get E2 sensitive done) 18.9 Pg/ml 
Free Testosterone 17.9 pg/ml
Testosterone 529.3 ng/dl 
Now I have this report and and am not sure if I am good to go with my first cycle. I have had almost complete blood panel that cost me a fortune only highlighted the ones that really matter
Anyways.. So if these values are good to go, I assume I would have to check once more in the mid of the cycle and then in the end before pct. right. 
Looking forward.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mickey! How long can the hCG be refrigerated for when diluted with the supplied water. I have given up on BAC WATER.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


50 days or so with Bac Water, but i preload and freeze anything longer than 3wks so my hCG is never in the refrigerator longer than 3 wks.  :Smilie: 

Ill send you a pm. Dont give up yet. 




> I am going through the entire thread once again. Pardon my questions. 
> If the symptoms like acne, ED, water retention and mood swings occur, one should lower the dose of 10 mg Aromasin to how much ?  No. You need to *raise* your dose if all these symptoms occur. 
> And in the case of Gyno one should tapper up the dose to how much?  No idea. Everyone responds differently. And depending on the severity of your Gyno, you may only require Nolva or Ralox to effectively combat this. 
> What I have understood by monitoring the blood work is, to get my Total Test and free test checked. Right ?? Thats part of it. But a more comprehensive blood panel is recommended in oredre to have a solid baseline of the most important or relevant hormones. 
> I have done some blood work last month. 
> My PSA ( Prostate specific agent) was and still might be 0.215 ng/ml That's not high, imho. 
> Estradiol ( I couldn't get E2 sensitive done) 18.9 Pg/ml If its not a sensitive E2 then the results are not accurate for males. 
> Free Testosterone 17.9 pg/ml
> Testosterone 529.3 ng/dl 
> ...


If you want to put up your full blood work panel in the HRT forums the Specialists in there can go over it in better detail and point out any areas that need attention. I do not have the education to properly comment on your blood work, other than what i have indicated already.  :Smilie:

----------


## Provita

Bump

----------


## human project

> 50 days or so with Bac Water, but i preload and freeze anything longer than 3wks so my hCG is never in the refrigerator longer than 3 wks. 
> 
> Ill send you a pm. Dont give up yet.
> 
> If you want to put up your full blood work panel in the HRT forums the Specialists in there can go over it in better detail and point out any areas that need attention. I do not have the education to properly comment on your blood work, other than what i have indicated already.


Since I only use 250mcg every 4-6 days and I get 5000iu amps how could I save some of the powder??? Does it have enough weight to split up?? Could I just cut the puck in half or something???? My hcg usually last me 3-4months. I just finished an amp and it seemed to be working the same as ever but now reading this I'm second guessing my protocol

----------


## AliYousaf

> 50 days or so with Bac Water, but i preload and freeze anything longer than 3wks so my hCG is never in the refrigerator longer than 3 wks. 
> 
> Ill send you a pm. Dont give up yet.
> 
> If you want to put up your full blood work panel in the HRT forums the Specialists in there can go over it in better detail and point out any areas that need attention. I do not have the education to properly comment on your blood work, other than what i have indicated already.


Thanks Bro! Helped a lot much appreciated. And thanks for the PM  :Wink: 

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Since I only use 250mcg every 4-6 days and I get 5000iu amps how could I save some of the powder??? Does it have enough weight to split up?? Could I just cut the puck in half or something???? My hcg usually last me 3-4months. I just finished an amp and it seemed to be working the same as ever but now reading this I'm second guessing my protocol


*Freezing hCG*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...n#.UJKMCGfX_fs




> Thanks Bro! Helped a lot much appreciated. And thanks for the PM 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Youre welcome, good luck.

----------


## jaswave125

Hey mickey would you recommend running 600mg of testosterone enanthate everyweek for 10weeks? Im asking this because im getting a 300mg/ml vial or would it be to much for a first timer?

----------


## kronik420

> Hey mickey would you recommend running 600mg of testosterone enanthate everyweek for 10weeks? Im asking this because im getting a 300mg/ml vial or would it be to much for a first timer?


if you wanted to get closer to 500mg/week, you could just inject .8 or .9mls each time..

.8 would be 480mg/week

.9 would be 540mg/week

----------


## jaswave125

> if you wanted to get closer to 500mg/week, you could just inject .8 or .9mls each time..
> 
> .8 would be 480mg/week
> 
> .9 would be 540mg/week


Yeah I got that figured out. I just wanted to know if its safe to run 600mg of test, a saw an article in another site comparing 300mg vs 600mg of test stating that the 600mg group had better gains and did not have any significant side effects compared to the 300mg group. 

And I would like to completely empty my vial and dont keep anything as I plan to take a long long break before beginning another cycle.

----------


## kronik420

> Yeah I got that figured out. I just wanted to know if its safe to run 600mg of test, a saw an article in another site comparing 300mg vs 600mg of test stating that the 600mg group had better gains and did not have any significant side effects compared to the 300mg group. 
> 
> And I would like to completely empty my vial and dont keep anything as I plan to take a long long break before beginning another cycle.


if it were me, i would just go with the 600mg/week..

as long as you keep your estrogen under control.. sides should be minimal..

----------


## hell911

what is the advantages and disadvantages of::

Most Common Beginners Cycles.


*Option 2. Long Ester*

and 

*Option 3. Short Ester* ?

----------


## Tron3219

> what is the advantages and disadvantages of::
> 
> Most Common Beginners Cycles.
> 
> Option 2. Long Ester
> 
> and
> 
> Option 3. Short Ester ?


Long ester u pin less, longer cycle = more time off

Short ester u pin more, shorter cycle= less time off

-TroN-

----------


## hell911

^
oh, so in terms of gains, it all depends on my diet.

meaning i can choose anyone of them and get the same results?

----------


## Kingsmen

Is there any chance i can PM Tron3219 or Mickey?
Can't even seem to find the PM option on this forum.

Would like to ask something but don't really want to post it here.
Would be boss if you could spare me 15 minutes of your time, although I'm sure your packed with PM's already.

Thanks guys

----------


## jaswave125

> Is there any chance i can PM Tron3219 or Mickey?
> Can't even seem to find the PM option on this forum.
> 
> Would like to ask something but don't really want to post it here.
> Would be boss if you could spare me 15 minutes of your time, although I'm sure your packed with PM's already.
> 
> Thanks guys


You got no choice you should have a number of posts before you can pm somebody read the rules. So the only option would bs post it here they are nice guys as long as your questions are not something they have stated

----------


## Kingsmen

> You got no choice you should have a number of posts before you can pm somebody read the rules. So the only option would bs post it here they are nice guys as long as your questions are not something they have stated


Interesting, i frequent a lot of forums and there usually not like that. 
Wanted to post up some pictures and collect some thoughts but i don't think i want to post it here.
Might disrupt the flow of the thread and I'm not sure if i want people i might know run into it. 
Might post them up later, it's time for bed now!

----------


## MickeyKnox

> if it were me, i would just go with the 600mg/week..
> 
> as long as you keep your estrogen under control.. sides should be minimal..


Agreed.




> ^
> oh, so in terms of gains, it all depends on my diet.
> 
> meaning i can choose anyone of them and get the same results?


Diet determines your weight gains, not oils and pills. It starts in the kitchen bro. Dial in your diet and eat. AAS promotes repair in mucsle tissue faster, it doesn't magically put weight on you. If you don't eat properly, you're wasting your money and time. 




> Interesting, i frequent a lot of forums and there usually not like that. 
> Wanted to post up some pictures and collect some thoughts but i don't think i want to post it here.
> Might disrupt the flow of the thread and I'm not sure if i want people i might know run into it. 
> Might post them up later, it's time for bed now!


This is to protect the Board and its membership. Please be patient and stick around. In the meantime, research, read and ask questions. It wont be long bro.

----------


## human project

> Hey mickey would you recommend running 600mg of testosterone enanthate everyweek for 10weeks? Im asking this because im getting a 300mg/ml vial or would it be to much for a first timer?


If you want to drop your mg's down then just take a shot every 4,5 or even 6 days between shots... Enamthate and cyp are such long esters that you'll be fine taking shots more spread apart.... That being said my first cycle was 600mg of test with 30mg d Bol a day and I gained more then any cycle since.... Defiantly use a good ai and be careful with how much hcg you use.... More is not better with hcg... In my experience taking the least amount of hcg as possible works best. Hcg really messes with my estrogen

----------


## Kingsmen

> This is to protect the Board and its membership. Please be patient and stick around. In the meantime, research, read and ask questions. It wont be long bro.


Thanks a lot for the response champ.
Will do, I'll get at you as soon as i hit the post count.

----------


## jaswave125

> If you want to drop your mg's down then just take a shot every 4,5 or even 6 days between shots... Enamthate and cyp are such long esters that you'll be fine taking shots more spread apart.... That being said my first cycle was 600mg of test with 30mg d Bol a day and I gained more then any cycle since.... Defiantly use a good ai and be careful with how much hcg you use.... More is not better with hcg... In my experience taking the least amount of hcg as possible works best. Hcg really messes with my estrogen


So would it be ok to take 500mg of test E once a week? 

How much hcg would you recommend per week? 500iu? Or thats to much or less? 

Because I think im sensitive to estrogen. Bases on my nipples getting sensitive in cold weather or water.

----------


## kronik420

> So would it be ok to take 500mg of test E once a week? *no, split it up into 2 shots..* 
> 
> How much hcg would you recommend per week? 500iu? Or thats to much or less? *2x 250 IU's/week*
> 
> Because I think im sensitive to estrogen. Bases on my nipples getting sensitive in cold weather or water. *i don't think that means you are sensitive to estrogen lol...*


*
see bold
*
an AI is also needed.. either Arimidex or Aromasin ..

----------


## human project

> So would it be ok to take 500mg of test E once a week?
> 
> How much hcg would you recommend per week? 500iu? Or thats to much or less?
> 
> Because I think im sensitive to estrogen. Bases on my nipples getting sensitive in cold weather or water.


It's better to split your doses up a little bit so your levels stay more consistent. That being said dr's prescribe one shot every two weeks with enamthate and cyp.... For bodybuilding purpose it's probably better to use ever 3-5 day.

----------


## human project

> So would it be ok to take 500mg of test E once a week?
> 
> How much hcg would you recommend per week? 500iu? Or thats to much or less?
> 
> Because I think im sensitive to estrogen. Bases on my nipples getting sensitive in cold weather or water.


I use 250mcg ever 4-6 days with hcg depending on how my nipples look/feel.

----------


## jack00

Hi guys,

I am on a 16 weeks cycle. This is my 4th cycle ever. I am currently on my 8th week. My diet is on point but i have no knowledge about PCT products or anything. I am taking HCG , do i need to take anything else? Can someone please tell me if i need anything. I have a stack of Nolvadex since i have had symptoms of gyno before. 
What do you guys think about the cycle and dosage. 
I would really appreciate any advice. 

Cycle Length: 16 weeks
Cycle Layout:
Weeks 1-16 750 mg GP Test Enathate250 per week
Weeks 1-16 600 mg GP Bold per week
Weeks 1-8 100 mg GP Tren Acetate100 every other day
Weeks 1-16 100mg GP Mast100 every other day
Weeks 8-16 40mg GP Turan every day
Weeks 6-10 500ius Pregnyl HCG every 3rd day 

An extended lean bulking cycle for the advanced user. User will inject 1.5cc of Test E and 1.5cc of Bold twice per week for weeks 1-16. User will also inject 1cc of Mast every other day for weeks 1-16 along with 1cc of Tren acetate every other day for weeks 1-8. Starting in week 8 the user will take 4 tabs of Turan everyday 8 weeks and will began taking 500iu of HCG every 3rd day starting in week 6 for 4 weeks.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Hi guys,
> 
> I am on a 16 weeks cycle. This is my 4th cycle ever. I am currently on my 8th week. My diet is on point but i have no knowledge about PCT products or anything. I am taking HCG , do i need to take anything else? Can someone please tell me if i need anything. I have a stack of Nolvadex since i have had symptoms of gyno before. 
> What do you guys think about the cycle and dosage. 
> I would really appreciate any advice. 
> 
> Cycle Length: 16 weeks
> Cycle Layout:
> Weeks 1-16 750 mg GP Test Enathate250 per week
> ...


Get rid of this laundry list - this is a cycle for someone who has been on AAS for a long time - not you! I can assure you, you have NOT outgrown your last two cycles! Its important to grow *into* your dose. 

What are your stats?

----------


## AliYousaf

Hey Mickey! One serious question.. Can T3 and Clen or either of them be use with AAS first a cycle like Test-E and DBol . 
I am all set to start my cycle Just waiting for BA water to arrive. 
I cannot afford to have any kind of bloated and balloon like face and body anytime of the year. It's about the job. So I thought may be I could use T3 and Clen which I have already on hand. I can also get winstrol Depot but not Var or Winny.. So what do you say how to do this cycle ?

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Hey Mickey! One serious question.. Can T3 and Clen or either of them be use with AAS first a cycle like Test-E and DBol . 
> I am all set to start my cycle Just waiting for BA water to arrive. 
> I cannot afford to have any kind of bloated and balloon like face and body anytime of the year. It's about the job. So I thought may be I could use T3 and Clen which I have already on hand. I can also get winstrol Depot but not Var or Winny.. So what do you say how to do this cycle ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


I would not recommend Clen, T3, or Albuterol on your first cycle. Keep it as simple as possible. 

Your diet will reflect your water retention and bloat. This is controlled in the kitchen, not with a pill or Thermo. Later on you can add a thermogenic if you like but not this time Ali. 

Do not include Winstrol either. And FTR, Winstrol Depot and "Winny" are the same thing. Winny is just a nickname like Var is to Anavar and Adex is to Arimidex .

----------


## Drops

ok to run Nolvadex 40/40/20/20 with no Clomid for PCT? I know everyone advises to use Clomid with Nolvadex but I can't get hold of Clomid from my dealer and i'd prefer not having to order online. Cheers

----------


## MickeyKnox

> ok to run Nolvadex 40/40/20/20 with no Clomid for PCT? I know everyone advises to use Clomid with Nolvadex but I can't get hold of Clomid from my dealer and i'd prefer not having to order online. Cheers


I would wait until you have Clomid. Clomid/Nolva for a proper recovery, imho. 

Remember the Golden Rule; Don't ever begin a cycle until you have everything on hand. No exceptions.

----------


## Drops

Thats what I thought, thanks Mickey.

Too bad, because I have everything except for Clomid! Guess I'll have to resort to ordering online.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Thats what I thought, thanks Mickey.
> 
> Too bad, because I have everything except for Clomid! Guess I'll have to resort to ordering online.


Just make the order count..stock up.  :Wink:

----------


## Provita

Mickey, just picked up something:

"PCT Begins wk 15 to wk 19" In option 1. Thats 5 weeks.

" PCT Begins wk 13 to wk 17". In option 2. Thats also 5 weeks.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mickey, just picked up something:
> 
> "PCT Begins wk 15 to wk 19" In option 1. Thats 5 weeks.
> 
> " PCT Begins wk 13 to wk 17". In option 2. Thats also 5 weeks.


That's wk 15 *TO* wk 19..not including wk 19. You read it wrong.  :Smilie:

----------


## Provita

> That's wk 15 *TO* wk 19..not including wk 19. You read it wrong.


O.k. But then option 3 should read the same way. Not wk9 to wk 12. That would only be 3 weeks then...

----------


## MickeyKnox

> O.k. But then option 3 should read the same way. Not wk9 to wk 12. That would only be 3 weeks then...


Youre right.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Thanks for pointing that out. Ill fix it asap.  :Smilie:

----------


## Provita

> Youre right.  
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out. Ill fix it asap.


 Glad I could help!!!! :AaGreen22: 


Its funny. Read it like a hundred times, and its the first time I see it.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Glad I could help!!!!


Wiseguy. lol

----------


## Provita

> Wiseguy. lol


Lol... Now please  :Asskiss:  :-)

----------


## RaginCajun

bump!

cuz i haven't cycled in a while but looking to shortly

i need to do my homework again

----------


## AliYousaf

> I would not recommend Clen , T3, or Albuterol on your first cycle. Keep it as simple as possible.
> 
> Your diet will reflect your water retention and bloat. This is controlled in the kitchen, not with a pill or Thermo. Later on you can add a thermogenic if you like but not this time Ali.
> 
> Do not include Winstrol either. And FTR, Winstrol Depot and "Winny" are the same thing. Winny is just a nickname like Var is to Anavar and Adex is to Arimidex.


Ok got it Mickey.. Means I can do Celen and T3 after I am done with my first cycle and PCT. Ok.. 
And I thought Winstrol Depot was injectable. And Wnny ( the Winstrol) was oral. Thanks for the clarification bro.. Much appreciated.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Hey Mickey! One serious question.. Can T3 and Clen or either of them be use with AAS first a cycle like Test-E and DBol . 
> I am all set to start my cycle Just waiting for BA water to arrive. 
> I cannot afford to have any kind of bloated and balloon like face and body anytime of the year. It's about the job. So I thought may be I could use T3 and Clen which I have already on hand.* I can also get winstrol Depot but not Var or Winny*.. So what do you say how to do this cycle ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.





> Ok got it Mickey.. Means I can do Celen and T3 after I am done with my first cycle and PCT. Ok.. 
> And *I thought Winstrol Depot was injectable. And Wnny ( the Winstrol) was oral.* Thanks for the clarification bro.. Much appreciated.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Thats correct, but you didn't type Winstrol, you typed "Winny" (see above post). "Winny" is slang for either.

----------


## hell911

Option 3. Short Ester
Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod. 

so Test Propionate and Test Enanthate is not same?  :0icon Ohmygod:

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Option 3. Short Ester
> Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod. 
> 
> so Test Propionate and Test Enanthate is not same?


No. Those are different esters.

**Esters and Half Life Of Steroids - Oral and Depot** 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...=#.UUxgJTcUX0E

----------


## hell911

^
i mean, when i go for the 1st cycle and chose option 3, i need to follow what is written, i really need to use Test Propionate and NOT Test E.

correct?

-------
what is the meaning of "iu" , i checked the topic of abbreviations, this word is not in the list.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> ^
> i mean, when i go for the 1st cycle and chose option 3, i need to follow what is written, i really need to use Test Propionate and NOT Test E.
> 
> correct?


Oh, yes that's correct because the length of cycle and PCT is based upon that particular ester. If you want to use a longer ester like Enanthate or Cypionate , simply choose a different cycle.

----------


## Drops

Mickey, when you take out your HCG from freezer do you just let it thaw and then inject? Seems like a stupid question, but isn't HCG pretty unstable and sensitive to shock, light etc? Anything I need to be worried about?  :What?: 

By the way is it even necessary to begin HCG protocol from first week when using longer esters like enanthate ?

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

----------


## hell911

lets say my diet and workout is in check before and after the 8 week Test cycle..

after the cycle, for how long will my gains stay?

----------


## MuscleInk

> lets say my diet and workout is in check before and after the 8 week Test cycle..
> 
> after the cycle, for how long will my gains stay?


Please post this question in Q&A and not on this thread. This thread was developed to assist new members with planning first cycles.

Thank you.

MuscleInk

----------


## Provita

Bump

----------


## eri01

Doesn't Testosterone Cypionate have a long halflife? why 2 injections per week? just curious.

----------


## MuscleInk

> Doesn't Testosterone Cypionate have a long halflife? why 2 injections per week? just curious.


Half life is 8 days. Splitting injections provides a more stable concentration rather than the "highs and lows" that come from a single injection.

MuscleInk

----------


## eri01

> Half life is 8 days. Splitting injections provides a more stable concentration rather than the "highs and lows" that come from a single injection.
> 
> MuscleInk


makes sense  :Smilie:  thanks MuscleInk

----------


## romanos83539

Mickey, what could be an expected total cost for the option below?
I take BP medication (Diovan - Diuretic+ARB) that keeps me at 120/70
Also taking med for elevated triglycerides (familial inherited).
Any considerations on that? I am 52 years old in good shape overall. Working out and playing sports.

Option 3. Short Ester

Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod.
Wk 1-8 Aromasin 10mg ED day - monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day.

PCT
Begins wk 9 to wk 13

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

----------


## Mr.Pitch

Wow, just barely got through half of the reading in the OP (threads provided included) and I've learned a ton. Thanks a lot for putting this together, extremely useful!

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Mickey, what could be an expected total cost for the option below?
> I take BP medication (Diovan - Diuretic+ARB) that keeps me at 120/70
> Also taking med for elevated triglycerides (familial inherited).
> Any considerations on that? I am 52 years old in good shape overall. Working out and playing sports.
> 
> Option 3. Short Ester
> 
> Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod.
> Wk 1-8 Aromasin 10mg ED day - monitor and adjust accordingly.
> ...


Welcome Romanos.

We don't discuss prices here. Sorry. But the cycle is a solid one for a short ester, however, frequent pinning is the trade off. 




> Wow, just barely got through half of the reading in the OP (threads provided included) and I've learned a ton. Thanks a lot for putting this together, extremely useful!


Glad to hear.  :Smilie:

----------


## crazy mike

> Mickey, what could be an expected total cost for the option below?
> I take BP medication (Diovan - Diuretic+ARB) that keeps me at 120/70
> Also taking med for elevated triglycerides (familial inherited).
> Any considerations on that? I am 52 years old in good shape overall. Working out and playing sports.
> 
> Option 3. Short Ester
> 
> Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod.
> Wk 1-8 Aromasin 10mg ED day - monitor and adjust accordingly.
> ...


Hi romanos, I was wondering, this is your first cycle right ? if so what might be your reason for the use of Test prop, a short ester needing to be injected eod. Rather than the longer esters for once a wk injections. That's a question of just curiosity. ...crazy mike  :Welcome:

----------


## hell911

> First and foremost, before you begin your cycle, please have a full blood panel done to determine your hormone values and to give you a baseline for you to gauge any changes before, during, and post cycle. A *full Blood Panel* that includes a sensitive Male Estrogen Assay is recommended. (Thanks Kel)


i asked my doctor about this, he said he need to know the "specific" full blood panel, what should i say to him?

----------


## kronik420

> i asked my doctor about this, he said he need to know the "specific" full blood panel, what should i say to him?


full hormonal panel including E2 sensitivity essay

----------


## hell911

> full hormonal panel including E2 sensitivity essay


do we need to have a letter or document from doctor to have this blood test?

i called on a clinic, they said this type of test is done in hospitals.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> i asked my doctor about this, he said he need to know the "specific" full blood panel, what should i say to him?


From *KelKel's* sticky..,

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...n#.UVH8JzcUX0E



"Following is a list, but certainly other specialists in this area may run expanded or attenuated panels, per individual clinical experience and expertise. Of note, additional tests which should be included to complete a comprehensive Anti-Aging Medicine workup, inflammatory markers, insulin , comprehensive thyroid study and as always, the panel needs to be tailored to the individual patient. 

Here are examples only recommended by Dr. John Crisler in his paper “Current Best thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men.”

• Total Testosterone 
• Bioavailable testosterone (aka Free and Loosely Bound)
• Free Testosterone
• SHBG
• DHT (gel users especially pay attention to this)
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel (complete)
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Panel
• PSA (age dependent)
• IGF-1, IGFBP-3 (if HGH therapy is being considered)
• Vitamin D


*FOLLOW-UP LABS:*

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone
• Free Testosterone
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (for those over 40 with family history of prostate CA. >45 all others)
• IGF-1, IGFBP-3 (if GH therapy has been initiated already)


Get the actual test results from the lab or doctors office. You paid for them therefore they are yours. Begin to maintain a chronological file for all your lab work. An excel spread-sheet is even nicer. It will pay off later when analyzing progress. If you’re not being treated at LowTestosterone.com do not accept that “your results are normal.” Many doctors don’t know what normal is and “normal” is really a relative term. Get your own results and do your own research. Always insist on seeing your actual results. Get a copy for your own records as stated above.

Many members here have ended up having to go from doctor to doctor until they can find one who will work with them. Many doctors surprisingly know very little about TRT. You know your body better than they do. Insist on a proper diagnosis first and foremost before therapy begins. Find the causative factor! If and when therapy does begin, be sure to get ALL of your symptoms treated.

DO NOT believe the ranges the lab report shows. DO NOT believe that you are fine just because you are “in range.” Ranges are relative and a good range for one person may not be correct for another. I repeat, do your own research.

Remember, you are in charge of your health and your doctor is there to help you. Not the other way around. This, in and of itself is one of the reasons LowTestosterone.com was developed!

Hope the above helps! In good health!

Kel


Contributions by GDevine & Bass"

----------


## hell911

^
thanks!

btw, what should i tell to the doctor about "why i need this blood test?" should i say routine checkup or what?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> ^
> thanks!
> 
> btw, what should i tell to the doctor about "why i need this blood test?" should i say routine checkup or what?


Just tell him/her that you would like to have a full blood panel done as you have never had one before, and it would make a solid baseline for further blood tests.

----------


## hell911

oh, tnx for the tip.

----------


## jaswave125

Well it's me again, i'v been reading a lot and it somehow messed with me.

I know this is stupid what would you guys think if I added anavar on a cycle? Lets say my cycle is 10 week and add anavar for the last 4weeks? I'v been reading alot and it seems to work pretty well. 

Just wanted to know what you guys think about it?

----------


## Burnout

Perfect timing too. Thank you!

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Well it's me again, i'v been reading a lot and it somehow messed with me.
> 
> I know this is stupid what would you guys think if I added anavar on a cycle? Lets say my cycle is 10 week and add anavar for the last 4weeks? I'v been reading alot and it seems to work pretty well. 
> 
> Just wanted to know what you guys think about it?


I would run it up front if you're using a long ester. But i wouldn't use it if its your first cycle.

----------


## jaswave125

Well yeah it is my first cycle as much as I'm tempted to use anavar I'm going to pass.

----------


## LVCat

Thanks again for the great thread MickeyKnox.

----------


## jackattack

Just started reading this seems very helpful. Don't know what alot of the stuff is. Just what I have

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Well yeah it is my first cycle as much as I'm tempted to use anavar I'm going to pass.


Good call buddy. 




> Thanks again for the great thread MickeyKnox.





> Just started reading this seems very helpful. Don't know what alot of the stuff is. Just what I have


Glad to hear.  :Smilie:

----------


## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Up for all the new members..

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## Lunk1

Amen...Spring is upon us. Here they come lol...

----------


## MickeyKnox

The wave began about two wks ago..lol

----------


## MuscleInk

> The wave began about two wks ago..lol


....yup, and its driving me away from the Q&A.

MuscleInk

----------


## Lunk1

Sometimes it's ammusing but more often annoying

----------


## MickeyKnox

I just was talking to another Vet about this. I start Tren Monday. I think i'll be taking a vacay for awhile..lol

----------


## Lunk1

> I just was talking to another Vet about this. I start Tren Monday. I think i'll be taking a vacay for awhile..lol


NO NO...that would be the best time to have ya here lol

----------


## MickeyKnox

I think i used up all my get outta jail free cards in the last two wks. Time to recharge the batteries and let the dust settle in the meantime..lol

----------


## MuscleInk

> I think i used up all my get outta jail free cards in the last two wks. Time to recharge the batteries and let the dust settle in the meantime..lol


Well I'm throwing pt-141 into the mix tonight so I'm not going to be worried about the noobs - only how long HAW can survive.  :Wink: 

MuscleInk

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Well I'm throwing pt-141 into the mix tonight so I'm not going to be worried about the noobs - only how long HAW can survive. 
> 
> MuscleInk


Go easy on her, dawg, you dont want to crush her - shes Asian, and small, remember?  :Smilie:

----------


## MuscleInk

> Go easy on her, dawg, you dont want to crush her - shes Asian, and small, remember?


There's plenty more where she came from. Lol
(Just kidding).

MuscleInk

----------


## MickeyKnox

Haha you say that now....when shes not around to see..lol


Bump for Easter

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Bump STICKY good job MK


Thanks man.

Bump..

----------


## Drops

Just started my enanthate cycle today, I messed up with the HCG though, had a brain fart and sucked up 500 iu into my pins (needle not replacable), but oh well- still got 10k units left.

Also had to use a knife to cut my arimidex pill, I should probably get a pill cutter lol.

How long does it usually take to kick in, will I feel anything at all in the first feeks?

----------


## AliYousaf

Yo Mickey Bro! 
I just had my second Test-e Shot at 250 mg. I am also taking Dbol 20mg ED and Adex .25 mg ED. Yesterday I had my Hcg shot at 250 iu. I bought a pill splitter as you had advised. but unfortunately that's a shit thing. it does not split or cut clean the tab it only breaks and crush it.. I guess the blade is not sharp enough. This is actually my third pill splitter in last 14 days and none of them works. I thinks I 'll get a surgical blade or something to equally split Adex. I am thinking about taking 0.5 Mg Adex EOD .. what do you think?? I know you strongly suggest .25 ED but my shit pill splitter is breaking and wasting Adex for me so I thought may be 0.5 EOD isnt a bad idea after all. 
And thanks again.. for this this thread. I am learning a lot.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Just started my enanthate cycle today, I messed up with the HCG though, had a brain fart and sucked up 500 iu into my pins (needle not replacable), but oh well- still got 10k units left.
> 
> Also had to use a knife to cut my arimidex pill, I should probably get a pill cutter lol.
> 
> How long does it usually take to kick in, will I feel anything at all in the first feeks?


4-6 wks normally. 




> Yo Mickey Bro! 
> I just had my second Test-e Shot at 250 mg. I am also taking Dbol 20mg ED and Adex .25 mg ED. Yesterday I had my Hcg shot at 250 iu. I bought a pill splitter as you had advised. but unfortunately that's a shit thing. it does not split or cut clean the tab it only breaks and crush it.. I guess the blade is not sharp enough. This is actually my third pill splitter in last 14 days and none of them works. I thinks I 'll get a surgical blade or something to equally split Adex. I am thinking about taking 0.5 Mg Adex EOD .. what do you think?? I know you strongly suggest .25 ED but my shit pill splitter is breaking and wasting Adex for me so I thought may be 0.5 EOD isnt a bad idea after all. 
> And thanks again.. for this this thread. I am learning a lot.


Why are you dosing Adex .25mg *every* day? Do you have experience or BW that indicates the need for .25mg ed? If not, i would return to .25mg EOD. If you feel the need to increase based on sides or BW, then .5 EOD would be fine. But dont use .5mg EOD simply because you're having difficulty splitting the pill. Thats crazy talk..lol 

(and i do NOT strongly recommend .25mg EVERY DAY. I recommend every OTHER day - *unless* other circumstances or mitigating factors are involved) 

As far the pill splitter goes, do what you can then make a point to order from AR-R .com. Their products are liquid and easy to measure.

----------


## AliYousaf

Thanks Mickey!! You have always been a great help. This thread is absolutely a life saver. 
Ok!! about Adex at .25 EOD, I re-read the original post and found out where was I going wrong. It was Aromasin that is to be take ED. Thanks again for correcting. I ll take .25 mg Adex EOD from now on :-)

Sent from my iPhone.

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## MickeyKnox

Right on bro! ^^

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## jaswave125

I'll also give this a bump as this thread though me a lot. =)

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## chi-town

First off Hello and thanks everyone for this thread its been very helpful. I am about to do my first cycle and i have chosen to do option 2 long ester, 500 mg test-e 12 weeks. I had a couple of questions on this. 
1. Since this is my first cycle will i want to run aromasin right from the start or wait and see if its something i am going to need??

2. Its says 12.5 mg ED (aromasin) adjust and monitor. Now how do i know if i need to change and if so by how much?

3. Should I use HCG right from the start or should i wait and see how I react and see if i need it??

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## MickeyKnox

Hi and welcome Chi-Town.

Im glad that were able to use this thread to point you in the right direction.  :Smilie:  

However, may I ask you a favor? Could you please re post your question, *including stats*, in the Q&A Anabolic Forum for a better response and more traffic. This will enable others to view and respond as well. 

Thanks a lot!  :Smilie: 

*Anabolic Q&A Forum.*

http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...S#.UIDcDq7X_fs

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## Provita

B
u
m
p

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## JohnnyJohnson

Hey guys. Looking for some advice. I'm going into week 2 of my first cycle ever, wanting to maximize what I have access to. I am 28 years old. I am 6'0" 215 lbs and have been training 5 days a week for 2 years. I have a clean, high protein diet. I have never used any gear before though. I thought I was ready and educated enough to begin a basic cycle, but I'm second guessing myself now. I began last week with one ML of dual test (E and C) at 200 Mg per ML and one ML of Deca at 200 Mg per ML. This is how it was explained to me as the best way to use it. I am using 10 Mg of Aromasin ED as an AI...right now after what I've started with, I have at my disposal: 9 ML of Dual Test at 200 Mg/ML, 9 ML of Deca at 200Mg/ML and about 700 Mg of Aromasin left. (I have a plan for PCT that I'm not inquiring about yet). I would like to get opinions on how to maximize results from what I have and how to dose it safely at the same time. If I keep going on the same track I've been on, I'll be dosing again on Monday. Please let me know what you think.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Hey guys. Looking for some advice. I'm going into week 2 of my first cycle ever, wanting to maximize what I have access to. I am 28 years old. I am 6'0" 215 lbs and have been training 5 days a week for 2 years. I have a clean, high protein diet. I have never used any gear before though. I thought I was ready and educated enough to begin a basic cycle, but *I'm second guessing myself now.* I began last week with one ML of dual test (E and C) at 200 Mg per ML and one ML of Deca at 200 Mg per ML. *This is how it was explained to me* as the best way to use it. I am using 10 Mg of Aromasin ED as an AI...right now after what I've started with, I have at my disposal: 9 ML of Dual Test at 200 Mg/ML, 9 ML of Deca at 200Mg/ML and about 700 Mg of Aromasin left. *(I have a plan for PCT that I'm not inquiring about yet).* I would like to get opinions on how to maximize results from what I have and how to dose it safely at the same time. If I keep going on the same track I've been on, I'll be dosing again on Monday. Please let me know what you think.


Did you even bother to read the first page in this thread??

Why on earth would you inject yourself with something you have no clue about?? And you are clearly have no idea how to cycle proper and safely, nor do you have the proper education?? Why? Because you dont fvckin read! You're like one of these stereotypical young guys who want everything told to them because they're too damn lazy to read or even look it up themselves. Everything you need to know is on the first page INCLUDING LINKS. 

My friend told me this, my friend told me that. Stop being lazy and READ it yourself. Im serious. This is for your benefit, not mine. 

Stop what you're doing until you A, have all the items needed to complete a safe and responsible cycle. And B, have educated yourself enough to understand the behavior of each compound and the possible side effects and complications AND how to manage them effectively. And you dont wait until the end of your cycle to figure out your PCT!

That's my advice. I hope you listen.

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## sixfootseven

This thread needs a bump

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## AliYousaf

> This thread needs a bump


There you go. BUMP.

Sent from my iPhone.

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## po0oya

Hi guys ,
I've been working out for like couple of years but seriously for like 1 year. I used some steroids 4-5 years ago with no knowledge and I ended up with gyn and I had a surgery. I used a lil steroid again after my surgery and now I have a lil thing in my right chest. I haven't used steroids for the last 4 years, Now I want to start a cycle . I don't know if I'm considered as a beginner or not but I want to start from a beginner cycle and keep on going little by little. I have 2 concerns :
1- which ones are the best for me ? I've done some research , but still not sure. between test en, pro, winny, Dbol , deca ... and whichi one to use together. ( i want to do a 12 week cycle )
2- about that little tiny thing in my chest, should I first use some nolvadex or something to make it go away or should I do the cycle and then do the pct.

please help me decide , I want to do it properly this time .
thnx

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## mr.lenny

Poo0oya...am going to save some time for a veterans here and ask.., put your stats..age, weight, goals...then they can help you with the rest

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## po0oya

ok thnx , 
5'7"
145 lbs
10 % BF

I recently dropped 12 lbs of fat, and my goal right now is to gain lean muscle , I don't ant to be buff , I do want to get big but I want to gain lean muscle and a lil fat ofcourse . 
have been working out for 5-6 years, and after a big pause am working out continusely for about a year, Haven't used roids for 4 years. want to start a cycle but not sure what to use , and also concerning about that lil thing in my chest if I should use some Nolvadex or stuffz like that to make it go away or do the cycle then do the pct.

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## GirlyGymRat

> ok thnx ,
> 5'7"
> 145 lbs
> 10 % BF
> 
> I recently dropped 12 lbs of fat, and my goal right now is to gain lean muscle , I don't ant to be buff , I do want to get big but I want to gain lean muscle and a lil fat ofcourse .
> have been working out for 5-6 years, and after a big pause am working out continusely for about a year, Haven't used roids for 4 years. want to start a cycle but not sure what to use , and also concerning about that lil thing in my chest if I should use some Nolvadex or stuffz like that to make it go away or do the cycle then do the pct.


Hi!! You need to eat. You don't need a cycle. Get your butt over in the nutritional forum!!!

Seriously. We have gals here that weight more than you who are in awesome shape.

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## po0oya

> Hi!! You need to eat. You don't need a cycle. Get your butt over in the nutritional forum!!!
> 
> Seriously. We have gals here that weight more than you who are in awesome shape.


thanks, maybe you are right. that's what I'm doing right now , 7 meals a day and dry carb and high protein.

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## GirlyGymRat

> Bump..


This should be a sticky!

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## tigerspawn

Thanks Mickey.

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## Provita

B
u
m
p

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## MickeyKnox

You're welcome Tiger.  :Smilie:

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## OdinsOtherSon

> This should be a sticky!


Agree 100%....bump

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## MistaHaze

Bump

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

BUmp..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## tigerspawn

Bump

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## GirlyGymRat

> Bump..


Is this going to be turned into a stickey soon?

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## ichad

How many beginner cycles should one do before trying an intermediate cycle?What would the next type of intermediate cycles look like?

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## MickeyKnox

Unless you're stepping on stage or making a living BB'ing, there is no reason at all to run a grocery list of steroids . Test and perhaps an oral with a solid diet and exercise routine, trumps a long list of AAS any day of the wk for the recreational user. So the answer is use Test and maybe one other compound until you feel you have literally out grown it.

Read this when you get a sec..

*Grow Into Your Dose*

How many f*cking times!!! Grow into your dose!!

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## BluPhin

Thanks for the gumball Mickey!
B
U
M
P

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## MickeyKnox

lol ^^

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## ichad

Thx. I just hear of people doing. Test with mast. Or eq or sus. Or win. Or deca . Just wondering when one could introduce these kind of combinations. The reading you suggested there maybe no real need to. I will stick to test. Maybe add an oral like var or tbol.

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## MickeyKnox

Good call buddy. ^^

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## basketballfan22

Whenever I start my first cycle (probably in a year), I will definitely be using this as my guideline. Thanks a lot MickeyKnox.

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## MickeyKnox

> Whenever I start my first cycle (probably in a year), I will definitely be using this as my guideline. Thanks a lot MickeyKnox.


You're very welcome. Im glad you found this helpful.  :Smilie:

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## Doom44

Awesome post it help me a lot . Thank Mickey

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## MickeyKnox

Anytime Doom.

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## AliYousaf

Yo Mickey Bro! I just completed my 6th week of Test Enanthate onnly Cycle. I was actually going to start my Cycle with Dbol but I had this doubt about my Dbol being junk.. So I ordered another source and he delivered it too late. I have been on a clean diet since day one and without Dbol even then my face looks like a balloon,gains are pretty good though. But I am bloated, have adjusted my Adex according to that. 
I am now going to start Winny pills 50 mg from the 7th week ED. I have these 10 mg tabs. Just wanna know if I should space em like Anavar every eight hours. Or its ok to take them once in the morning or mid day.??? 

Also please let me know what blood work should I run in mid cycle to check on my progress. ?? 

Appreciated.

Sent from my iPhone.

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## MickeyKnox

Are you drinking lots of water? How is your sodium intake? Make sure your water is high and yopur sodium is low.

What is your AI protocol? Which on are you are taking? How much to begin and how much have you increased? 

Winstrol can be taken every 8 hours as the half life is approx 9 hours. 

Bloodwork would be the following. It's from Kel's thread and i think it's a terrific list. 
*
INITIAL TESTS:*

• Total Testosterone 
• Bioavailable testosterone (aka Free and Loosely Bound)
• Free Testosterone
• SHBG
• DHT (gel users especially pay attention to this)
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel (complete)
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Panel
• PSA (age dependent)
• IGF-1, IGFBP-3 (if HGH therapy is being considered)
• Vitamin D

*
FOLLOW-UP LABS:*

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone
• Free Testosterone
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (for those over 40 with family history of prostate CA. >45 all others)
• IGF-1, IGFBP-3 (if GH therapy has been initiated already)

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## cantstopkane

Feel like I am beating a dead horse here but great thread I learned some things here and have come back to it at least twice. Great work mick keep it up

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## orbitz21

Good stuff

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## AliYousaf

> Are you drinking lots of water? How is your sodium intake? Make sure your water is high and yopur sodium is low.
> 
> What is your AI protocol? Which on are you are taking? How much to begin and how much have you increased?
> 
> Winstrol can be taken every 8 hours as the half life is approx 9 hours.
> 
> Bloodwork would be the following. It's from Kel's thread and i think it's a terrific list.
> 
> INITIAL TESTS:
> ...


Thanks for reply bro.. I am drinking sufficient water.. Is that the causing my bloat ? Sodium intake is little lower than normally I would take.. I take Adex .25 mg to .5 mg EOD depending on the bloat I feel. I am following 250 iu HCG protocol twice a week a day before Test shot. Thanks to you I am not facing any Gyno troubles and my balls are still hanging and are in good spirit  :Wink:  

Please suggest anything I should or shouldn't do. 

I also take 2 mg Taurine, Vitamin B complex. vitamin d 2000iu and Potassium Gluconate 2 mg daily. 

Thanks for the labs suggestions I ll look into that. I just have one trouble with labs. There's no lab that would run E2 Sensitve near by.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

You want to drink at least a gallon a day of water.

Keep your sodium intake down.

I would maintain .5mg EOD constant and monitor carefully. You sound as though you may metabolize a little faster, like me, than the average user. 

Im glad to hear you're doing well and preventing Testicular Atrophy.  :Smilie:

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## AliYousaf

Oh yes Mickey bro.. That's true my metabolism is faster than my lil brother who is an athlete and keep himself fit through out the year.. I am just a gym freak on my first cycle. I have learned a lot from this thread. And still learning through other threads as well. Hats of to this useful thread for beginners.

Sent from my iPhone.

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## MickeyKnox

Glad you to hear bro.  :Smilie:

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## MickeyKnox

Bump..

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## jaswave125

Hey mickey, How would you dose dbol as a kick starter for the first 4weeks? 20mg a day for 4 weeks would be ok? The reason I'm asking is I'm planning to take it as a kick starter as I'v seen many people here wait to long for the test to "kick-in". And I plan on doing my cycle nxt year just want to learn more.

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## MickeyKnox

> Hey mickey, How would you dose dbol as a kick starter for the first 4weeks? 20mg a day for 4 weeks would be ok? The reason I'm asking is I'm planning to take it as a kick starter as I'v seen many people here wait to long for the test to "kick-in". And I plan on doing my cycle nxt year just want to learn more.


This is covered on page one. 

Beginner Cycles (with an oral) ---> http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...look-here.html

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## jaswave125

> This is covered on page one. 
> 
> Beginner Cycles (with an oral) ---> http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...look-here.html


Aw sorry man. my fault.

----------


## SwimDude

Hey Mickey (and or other vets),
This is kind of a continuation of a thread that I started a while ago. 

Just as a refresher:
I am a collegiate level swimmer and have been competing at this level for three years now. I'm primarily a sprinter, 50 and 100 freestyle and I mix in some breaststroke. I have had great success in the pool over my career but I have always just missed qualifying for nationals in any of individual events. So I thought for my senior year, junior summer, I should just go for broke and see what I can do with a well calculated diet and cycle.

Stats
Age: 22 - will be 23 before starting proposed cycle
Height: 5' 10.5
*Updated Weight: 168 (Lost a few fat pounds with cleaner diet)
BF%: 10-12%

*Updated Lifts - all "max" weights are reps of 4
Bench - 215 (Up 10lbs from last post late April)
Military Press - 195 (Up 10lbs)
Squat - 265 (Up 20lbs)

As you (MickeyKnox) suggested, I checked out this great thread and started considering a beginner cycle (you didn't say I should consider Test only but that seems to be the general consciences among you vets). So far *Option 3.* (Test Prop) seems to be my best bet but I had a few (hopefully not dumb) questions. Before I ask them though, I feel as though I should explain my goals with this cycle. 

I am considering this first cycle strictly as a performance enhancer, meaning I'm not overly concerned with how many pounds I gain. I want to build the most possible strength, speed, and endurance I can this summer before I start my last year  :Frown:  as a competitive swimmer. I am completely aware that I want magically turn into Ryan Lochte once I start a cycle. I know that most of my goals will be achieved through hard training and a better diet, I just think this cycle will help me exceed my goals.

Questions:
1. Since I am not going for size, should I drop the weekly dosage? I was thinking 100-125mg eod for 8 weeks and keeping everything else the exact same.

2. Should I consider a lighter (or regular) Test dosage supplemented with another compound such as Anavar , Winnie, ect?

Thanks for all of the help and sorry for such a long post!

*Forgot to mention this. Sprinters are BIG compared to the stereotypical swimmer. Check out Nathan Adrien or Alain Bernard

----------


## AliYousaf

Mickey bro! I have been injecting my Test E every fourth morning instead of 3.5 days and now I am currently in my 7th week. From now on I have decided to go every third day instead of fourth. My last shot was on 5th May so the next shot is good on 7th or 8th ? Seems like a little math trouble I know but I need advice. 
Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone.

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## Brazensol

I was wondering just how much of the lean mass gained on the first cycle could I expect to keep? I've seen guys get pretty big while on a cycle (this was in the late 80's when you could still use them ((legally)) in the military) and when their cycle was over they went right back to where they started. I hope this was because they were doing something wrong and is not the nature of the beast.

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## MickeyKnox

*SwimDude*,

1. Thats fine. 

2. I wouldn't for your first cycle. Keep it simple in case something goes sideways. 

Good luck.  :Smilie: 
*
AliYousaf,*

On the 8th you inject.

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## AliYousaf

Yo!! Mickey bro.. Thanks for your unlimited support and help man.. I have successfully prevented all the side effects and Gyno so far and I am so happy with the results that I am thinking of another cycle by end of this year.. 
Keep that help coming bro and creat another thread.. '2nd cycle for newbies' cus I ll be needing that too :-)

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## Lunk1

> Yo!! Mickey bro.. Thanks for your unlimited support and help man.. I have successfully prevented all the side effects and Gyno so far and I am so happy with the results that I am thinking of another cycle by end of this year.. 
> Keep that help coming bro and creat another thread.. '2nd cycle for newbies' cus I ll be needing that too :-)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Ali...congrats on your cycle progress. Mick is out fishing (for real). His OP includes cycle info for ppl interested in adding anoth compound but keep in mind. There is NO reason your second cycle cany be the exact same as your first and still have great success..maybe even better

----------


## AliYousaf

> Ali...congrats on your cycle progress. Mick is out fishing (for real). His OP includes cycle info for ppl interested in adding anoth compound but keep in mind. There is NO reason your second cycle cany be the exact same as your first and still have great success..maybe even better


Thank you Lunk :-) I hope Mickey catch some big ones... Wish him all the best for me, if you are in touch with him.

Sent from my iPhone.

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## orbitz21

yea every 3 days works for me. keep up the good job

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## bigT9

> Option 3. Short Ester
> 
> Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod. 
> Wk 1-8 Aromasin 12.5mg ED MIN - monitor and adjust accordingly. 
> Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day.
> 
> PCT 
> Begins wk 9 to wk 13
> 
> ...


1. Does HCG has different brands? How come I can't research/find HCG products online? (post some brand names please!)
2. clomid 75/50... and nolva 40/20.. does the numbers mean "milligrams"?
3. How is the intake schedule of nolva and clomid? 75mg in morning, then 50mg in afternoon?
4. clomid and nolva is ED right?
5. What is the meaning of iu?

----------


## Gaspaco

> 1. Does HCG has different brands? How come I can't research/find HCG products online? (post some brand names please!)
> 2. clomid 75/50... and nolva 40/20.. does the numbers mean "milligrams"?
> 3. How is the intake schedule of nolva and clomid? 75mg in morning, then 50mg in afternoon?
> 4. clomid and nolva is ED right?
> 5. What is the meaning of iu?


1. Pregnyl ORGANON
2. Yes
3. Morning both is fine/long half life
4. Yes
5. International units

----------


## Caleeco

Thanks for the info, looking into my first cylce... so this post and the links you have provided should be a good read  :Smiley:

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## MickeyKnox

> Thank you Lunk :-) I hope Mickey catch some big ones... Wish him all the best for me, if you are in touch with him.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Thanks Ali. Hope your cycle is going off without a hitch.  :Smilie: 




> Thanks for the info, looking into my first cylce... so this post and the links you have provided should be a good read


When you feel you have a cycle planned, post it up and we can take a peek at it. And dont forget to dial in your diet with the help of the Nutritional gurus here.

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## bigT9

waiting to edit, spam software is blocking. damn..

*gaspaco*
thanks for the info.




> 3. Morning both is fine/*long half life*


a. what is the meaning of long half life?
b. Clomid 75/50/50/50 , if 75mg is on the morning, what is the 50/50/50??
c. Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day , what is *twice/wk day*?

*mickeyknox*
should we post about the whole cycle on a new topic or we can post here? because im also going to do my 1st cycle in 2-3 weeks.

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## DuggyPhresh

Good info, I'm a beginner (can't even say first timer) and I'm hoping to get a lot of good information before jumping into anything serious.

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## MickeyKnox

> waiting to edit, spam software is blocking. damn..
> 
> *gaspaco*
> thanks for the info.
> 
> 
> 
> a. what is the meaning of long half life?  Certain AAS have longer half lives than others. for ex: Enth has a longer half life than Prop. 
> b. Clomid 75/50/50/50 , if 75mg is on the morning, what is the 50/50/50?? 75 is how many mg's you administer each day for the 1st wk. Then the second wk is 50mg's/day, and the 3rd wk is 50mg's/day, and so on and so forth.
> ...


Yes. Make a thread and include your proposed cycle and complete stats so others can offer advice as well.

----------


## cruzetor

good cycles bro

----------


## MajorPectorial

Agree with aust. 

Teach new ppl to grow into their dose. And about trying to keep to the one compound for as many as 5-6 cycles (if they can), but yeh. 'Grow into ur dose' ;-) fantastic thread btw

----------


## bigT9

> c. Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day , what is twice/wk day? *Twice per wk. Not sure where you found the "day" part?*


in the 1st post, look at the..

*Most Common Beginners Cycles.
Option 3. Short Ester*




> b. Clomid 75/50/50/50 , if 75mg is on the morning, what is the 50/50/50?? *75 is how many mg's you administer each day for the 1st wk. Then the second wk is 50mg's/day, and the 3rd wk is 50mg's/day, and so on and so forth.*


so on the 5th week, it should be 50 or less? bec. the dose from 2nd week to 4th week didnt change.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> good cycles bro


Thanks man.




> in the 1st post, look at the..
> 
> *Most Common Beginners Cycles.
> Option 3. Short Ester*
> 
> You didn't quote the ENTIRE line. It says, "...250iu twice/wk - day *before test injection.*" You left out "before test injection". 
> 
> 
> 
> so on the 5th week, it should be 50 or less? bec. the dose from 2nd week to 4th week didnt change.


Each number corresponds to the amount (in mg's) you administer each day PER WK for each compound. I dont know how else to explain that to you. Its fairly straight forward bro.

----------


## AliYousaf

> in the 1st post, look at the..
> 
> Most Common Beginners Cycles.
> Option 3. Short Ester
> 
> so on the 5th week, it should be 50 or less? bec. the dose from 2nd week to 4th week didnt change.


PCT is over with the completion of fourth week.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## DuggyPhresh

Would you have any objections to 250 for the test cyp, on beginner 1 long ester? If that was all that the beginner had? Or is 200 specific to knowledge/experience? I'm new on here and thank you for your assistance. I'm trying to learn all that I can.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Would you have any objections to 250 for the test cyp, on beginner 1 long ester? If that was all that the beginner had? Or is 200 specific to knowledge/experience? I'm new on here and thank you for your assistance. I'm trying to learn all that I can.


250mg 2/wk is fine. I just used 200mg 2/wk to mix it up and illustrate 400mg/wk is ok too.  :Smilie:

----------


## bigT9

mickeyknox

this is what is written in the 1st post..




> Option 3. Short Ester
> 
> Wk 1-8 Testosterone Propionate = 150mg eod. 
> Wk 1-8 Aromasin 12.5mg ED MIN - monitor and adjust accordingly. 
> *Wk 1-8 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day.*
> 
> PCT 
> Begins wk 9 to wk 13
> 
> ...


i guess you are missing the words "before test injection", thats why i got confused. better edit the 1st post.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> mickeyknox
> 
> this is what is written in the 1st post..
> 
> 
> 
> i guess you are missing the words "before test injection", thats why i got confused. better edit the 1st post.


I stand corrected. Fixed.

Thanks for pointing that out bro.  :Smilie:

----------


## AliYousaf

Hi Mickey.Hope you are good mate, glad to see you back. I got a question bro.. How long does it take to start seeing Winny's effects on the body?
I am taking Winny 50 mg ED and its been two weeks.. I know it's early but I am curios to know.
Will take it for 2-3 weeks more.. My first cycle of Test-E only, is gonna end in 3 weeks too. (I am thinking of stretching it to total of 16 weeks instead of 12). Anyways back to Winny effects. I am not sure if its even working.. I haven't seen any Winny sort of changes yet. Advice please. I am all ears. 

Regards.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Hi Mickey.Hope you are good mate, glad to see you back. I got a question bro.. How long does it take to start seeing Winny's effects on the body?
> I am taking Winny 50 mg ED and its been two weeks.. I know it's early but I am curios to know.
> Will take it for 2-3 weeks more.. My first cycle of Test-E only, is gonna end in 3 weeks too. (I am thinking of stretching it to total of 16 weeks instead of 12). Anyways back to Winny effects. I am not sure if its even working.. I haven't seen any Winny sort of changes yet. Advice please. I am all ears. 
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Thanks Ali.

Typically Winstrol will begin to shine through around the second wk because of the short half life (approx 9hours). 

I wouldn't run your Test out to 16 wks Ali. I would halt your cycle at 12 wks as originally intended for the simply fact that gains often drop off at wk 10 when using Test E. I would save your extra Test E for your next cycle. 

Can you tell me the Lab where you acquired your Winstrol from?

----------


## BunkerPunk

Great read, thanks for sharing. Beginner cycle I understand, how long/many cycles should be ran like this before even considering stacking? Assuming full knowledge of what you would be stacking, sides, diet, weight program, etc... I am in no hurry to move on from the aforementioned beginner cycles, just simply wondering on average, how long it takes to "plateau" on a beginner cycle.

----------


## AliYousaf

> Thanks Ali.
> 
> Typically Winstrol will begin to shine through around the second wk because of the short half life (approx 9hours).
> 
> I wouldn't run your Test out to 16 wks Ali. I would halt your cycle at 12 wks as originally intended for the simply fact that gains often drop off at wk 10 when using Test E. I would save your extra Test E for your next cycle.
> 
> Can you tell me the Lab where you acquired your Winstrol from?


It's LAanabolics or LaPharma .. I have seen people using this Lab's products quite a lot.. I talked to my source, he has earned his name for being reputable. He said if I am not satisfied I can switch to Winstrol 50Mg Injectables. 
I am not sure.. What do you say bro.. If I switch, do I have to dose 50mg injects EVERY DAY??

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## jimmer1980

After our early discussion this morning, and due to my availability and per your post recommendations, I found everything I need to implement. However I am not understanding this last part.

"PCT
Begins wk 15 to wk 19

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20"

Once again ty for the tips and your time.

----------


## jimmer1980

Apparently reading isnt my strong point, found earlier question while going through 17 pages of bumps and a million other questions. one more shameless bump
and ty for your time once again

----------


## human project

> It's LAanabolics or LaPharma .. I have seen people using this Lab's products quite a lot.. I talked to my source, he has earned his name for being reputable. He said if I am not satisfied I can switch to Winstrol 50Mg Injectables.
> I am not sure.. What do you say bro.. If I switch, do I have to dose 50mg injects EVERY DAY??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Winstrol injects suck bro..,,, Hurts do bad...
Good thing is you can just drink the injectable anyway so either way id give it a try... I personally find liquid anabolics to sometimes be better....

----------


## MickeyKnox

Nothing to add here Ali. Human Project covered you perfectly. 

Jimmer80, glad to see you found what you were looking for  :Smilie:

----------


## human project

> Great read, thanks for sharing. Beginner cycle I understand, how long/many cycles should be ran like this before even considering stacking? Assuming full knowledge of what you would be stacking, sides, diet, weight program, etc... I am in no hurry to move on from the aforementioned beginner cycles, just simply wondering on average, how long it takes to "plateau" on a beginner cycle.


I know many will disagree but I think a stack on a first cycle isn't exactly the worst idea... Your first cycle yield the best gains so why not make the most of them..... For instance IMO 250-400mg test 300-450 mast and maybe a few weeks of an oral in the very beginning of a first cycle along with basic estrogen blockers, hcg , and pct would give much better solid results them a basic 600mg first test cycle..... I think the reason why most people opt for just test first cycle bc its simple and easy which I can understand in the beginning but in reality that just means you probably haven't done enough research to be cycling.....

----------


## MickeyKnox

Although i agree with your results theory, the only caveat is which compound is causing complication if using multiple AAS, should this arise. Thats my only real concern when advising newbies on their first cycle.

----------


## human project

> Although i agree with your results theory, the only caveat is which compound is causing complication if using multiple AAS, should this arise. Thats my only real concern when advising newbies on their first cycle.


Your correct micky;;;; good point.... an important fact that I have forgotten to mention.... I ALWAYS recommend only using one new compound at a time.... Wait at least a few weeks before adding in a new compound bc I personally have had some crazy sides and having to narrow down the issue can become a problem.

----------


## MickeyKnox

No worries mate. I knew we were on the same page.  :Smilie:

----------


## DuggyPhresh

So with Arimidex and monitoring closely, what is the preferred method? Not being vague but I understand there are signs of gyno and then blood work. I should be checking my estradiol levels correct? And how often should blood work be done?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> So with Arimidex and monitoring closely, what is the preferred method? Not being vague but I understand there are signs of gyno and then blood work. I should be checking my estradiol levels correct? And how often should blood work be done?


Preferred method to what?? Sorry bro, im not following you. Need more input.

----------


## DuggyPhresh

As far as how to monitor/adjust your dose of arimidex during cycle? Should you be getting regular blood work and checking your estroidol levels to determine if your getting the right dose of arimidex? Or should you be watching for signs of gyno and adjusting your dose?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> As far as how to monitor/adjust your dose of arimidex during cycle? Should you be getting regular blood work and checking your estroidol levels to determine if your getting the right dose of arimidex? Or should you be watching for signs of gyno and adjusting your dose?


Ahh i see. Ok.

Truth is, if you can get bloods done before, mid cycle, and then 6wks after PCT that would be ideal. But for most folks, thats a bit daunting and perhaps expensive. So the best idea is to begin Adex at 25mg EOD and watch for known E2 sides like bloating, acne, ED, moods..ect and adjust your dose accordingly.

----------


## 604mike

Amazing thread. Your a real benefit to to community to give all this info/answer all these questions. I have a ton of questions to ask about my first cycle in 10 years but I don't want to be "that guy" so I have a Dr's appointment and another week of lurking on here before I seek any assistance. Again, very informative thread. Thanks.

----------


## AliYousaf

> Winstrol injects suck bro..,,, Hurts do bad...
> Good thing is you can just drink the injectable anyway so either way id give it a try... I personally find liquid anabolics to sometimes be better....


Thanks bro ! So I am going to get Winstrol Injectables in a day.. 
I am currently taking Winny pills 50mg a day.. Now want to give the Winny Injects a try, orally off course. It comes in 50 mg an amp I am told by the source. Now how to dose this one ? The same as Winny pills e.g 50 mg a day ? I take 10/20/20 MG every eight hours. Don't know how to use 50 mg/1ml amp properly. 

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## human project

> Thanks bro ! So I am going to get Winstrol Injectables in a day..
> I am currently taking Winny pills 50mg a day.. Now want to give the Winny Injects a try, orally off course. It comes in 50 mg an amp I am told by the source. Now how to dose this one ? The same as Winny pills e.g 50 mg a day ? I take 10/20/20 MG every eight hours. Don't know how to use 50 mg/1ml amp properly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


I personally wouldn't inject winny unless I mixed it with an oil.... Usually its not recommended to mix water based steroids with oil based but I don't personally notice a difference.... You can drink them with no problem tho... What do you mean by dont know how to use??? You mean open the amp??? When I first started using amps I used a pin cap.... Just put the pen cap over the top of amp and break It off... Now I just take my pocket knife and smack the top on the line and suck the contents out with a 18inch needle

----------


## Jamesturner

I am thinking about doing a cycle but am NOT interested in jumping into anything without first educating myself. So please understand that I DO NOT know much about steroids and I am just starting to learn. If I ask a stupid question, I am sorry, but remember I am starting from scratch here.

I approached a guy at my gym about gear (he was obviously well acquainted with steroids) he suggested a cycle of testosterone E and Tren E. I went home and did some research and just about everything I saw said that tren was NOT for beginners.... Long story short, I won't be going back to that guy for any help or suggestions. 

So here are my stats. I want you honest opinion but NOT your ridicule. I am 34 been working out for 2 years. I am rally into doing crossfit and do it 4 to 5 days per week. I am very tall and very thin. I am 6'4 175lbs. My bf% is 11.5%. My daily caloric intake is about 4000cal. No matter what I do I can't seem to get any gains in strength or mass. I would like to do a cycle to fill me out. I am not looking to be a bodybuilder or a professional athlete, I just don't want to look like I just left a concentration camp..... Suggestions?

----------


## MickeyKnox

> Amazing thread. Your a real benefit to to community to give all this info/answer all these questions. I have a ton of questions to ask about my first cycle in 10 years but I don't want to be "that guy" so I have a Dr's appointment and another week of lurking on here before I seek any assistance. Again, very informative thread. Thanks.


Thanks for the kinds words Mike. Keep on reading and then after your Dr appt come on back and fill us in.  :Smilie: 




> I am thinking about doing a cycle but am NOT interested in jumping into anything without first educating myself. So please understand that I DO NOT know much about steroids and I am just starting to learn. If I ask a stupid question, I am sorry, but remember I am starting from scratch here.
> 
> I approached a guy at my gym about gear (he was obviously well acquainted with steroids) he suggested a cycle of testosterone E and Tren E. I went home and did some research and just about everything I saw said that tren was NOT for beginners.... Long story short, I won't be going back to that guy for any help or suggestions. 
> 
> So here are my stats. I want you honest opinion but NOT your ridicule. I am 34 been working out for 2 years. I am rally into doing crossfit and do it 4 to 5 days per week. I am very tall and very thin. I am 6'4 175lbs. My bf% is 11.5%. My daily caloric intake is about 4000cal. No matter what I do I can't seem to get any gains in strength or mass. I would like to do a cycle to fill me out. I am not looking to be a bodybuilder or a professional athlete, I just don't want to look like I just left a concentration camp..... Suggestions?


Hi James,

Something doesn't jive with your diet or the figures you have provided. At your height and weight you're a but light to begin any type of AAS cycle. 

If you do a cycle now, you likely will not keep any of it because you have not built a foundation for any new muscle to grow on. You first need to build some solid dense muscle in order to maintain any new muscle. Then, you need to eat more to maintain your new muscle. It’s all about eating. Figure out your TDEE and up your cals at least 500 each day to gain some weight. Workout regularly and eat a high calorie clean balanced diet. There's no magic pill. The magic is EATING. 

Post your intended diet here including macros and the pros in there will assist you in tweaking your diet to fit your intended goals. Good luck! 

*Nutritional Forum*

 http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...M#.UHNufa7X_fs

*Hard Gainers - Gaining Weight*

Hardgainer? Can't gain weight? READ THIS!!!

----------


## BBJT200

sticky material !

----------


## Jamesturner

I have always had a high metabolism. Here is my diet on a typical day. Please offer any suggestions. 
Breakfast- 3 eggs, bagel, bowl of oatmeal
3 hours later- peanut butter sandwich and a protein shake (muscle milk)
Lunch- chicken breast, veggies and rice or noddles 
3 hours later another sandwich and muscle milk
WORK OUT -whey immediately (like I catch my breath then drink it down fast as I can while I am still huffing and puffing)
Dinner usually and hour or so after work out- chicken beef or fish with veggies and a carb or starch (normal balanced means)
3 hours later another sandwich and a bowl of all natural ice cream (heard ice cream was a good source of fats)
Large casein protein shake before bed. Was told this was the best for right before bed because it is slower digesting
So what do you think.

Btw, that is for your help and any tips you can give. Like I said, I am not jumping into anything until I am well educated and am sure I am doing it correctly and as safely as possible.

----------


## MickeyKnox

James i would post that up in the Nutritional Forums fort critique. Let the pros in there have a look at it.  :Smilie: 

*Nutritional Forum*

 http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...M#.UHNufa7X_fs

----------


## AliYousaf

> I personally wouldn't inject winny unless I mixed it with an oil.... Usually its not recommended to mix water based steroids with oil based but I don't personally notice a difference.... You can drink them with no problem tho... What do you mean by dont know how to use??? You mean open the amp??? When I first started using amps I used a pin cap.... Just put the pen cap over the top of amp and break It off... Now I just take my pocket knife and smack the top on the line and suck the contents out with a 18inch needle


Haha! Come on bro! I know how to break open an amp and inject myself. I have been doing this for a couple of weeks for my cycle. I just want to know how to distribute a 50mg/1ml liquid Winstrol over a day like I do with the pills (10/20/20 mg every eight hours)Also, I am not going to inject it.. I will take it orally as I said in my last post.. So please tell if its a good idea to drink the whole amp in the morning ? 

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## AliYousaf

Bump

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## trikydik

Dumb question: Option 2. Long Ester

Wk 1-12 Testosterone Enanthate = 250mg twice/wk e3.5d - is this 250mg every 3.5 days or 125mg every 3.5 days?

----------


## human project

> Haha! Come on bro! I know how to break open an amp and inject myself. I have been doing this for a couple of weeks for my cycle. I just want to know how to distribute a 50mg/1ml liquid Winstrol over a day like I do with the pills (10/20/20 mg every eight hours)Also, I am not going to inject it.. I will take it orally as I said in my last post.. So please tell if its a good idea to drink the whole amp in the morning ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone.


Ya you could drink it all at once morning, or pre workout... Or split into two doses.... If only using one dose i would probably opt for pre workout but again minimal differences IMHO....

----------


## thedeerhunter

> Dumb question: Option 2. Long Ester
> 
> Wk 1-12 Testosterone Enanthate = 250mg twice/wk e3.5d - is this 250mg every 3.5 days or 125mg every 3.5 days?


250mg every 3.5 days. So 500mg a week

----------


## OdinsOtherSon

Everyone, go to Page 1, Post 1.....bump

----------


## Combatant

Bump

----------


## AliYousaf

Bump.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## grnmnky

MK,
Thanks for all the info on first cycle. In your opinion, is there any other oral that can be run first cycle? I only ask because I'm looking for a little size but really want to cut. I'm 40 years old, 6'2", 210lbs., 14% bf. I've been lifting hard for just over three years and my diet is damn near perfect. It seems the older I get the harder it is to maintain. I'm going to run testc starting in august and already have everything necessary per your recommendations but its my first cycle and I want it to be my best.

----------


## panntastic

> MK,
> Thanks for all the info on first cycle. In your opinion, is there any other oral that can be run first cycle? I only ask because I'm looking for a little size but really want to cut. I'm 40 years old, 6'2", 210lbs., 14% bf. I've been lifting hard for just over three years and my diet is damn near perfect. It seems the older I get the harder it is to maintain. I'm going to run testc starting in august and already have everything necessary per your recommendations but its my first cycle and I want it to be my best.


He's not going to be able to answer you unfortunately buddy he's no longer here 

But your stats sounds good 
I would forget the orals if this is your first cycle roll with the cyp 500 mg week for 12 weeks and then hit pct 2 weeks later

----------


## Lagoon Das

Hi Everyone, I am new to this forum.

My stats
Age-26
Height-5ft 8"
Weight- 172lbs
BF- 15% (Approx)
Testosterone level- 456 ng/dl

Been training for 2 yrs. I have decided to take steroids (ANAVAR ).

Anavar 40-50mg ED weeks 1-8 (Ethopharma Anavar 200 tabs of 10mg each) 
Tribulus 4-5g ED weeks 1-12 
Liv 52ds 2tabs ED weeks 1-8
Flax oil (Omega 3-6-9)weeks 1-8
Universal daily formula 
On gold standard whey
Clomid 25-50mg ED weeks 9-12
Joint support ED weeks 3-8


Is this a good cycle. I also have test-E in hand & arimidex , nolva both for safe side.

Should I use only anavar . or test-E + anavar. As it's my first cycle I wanna go for single compound steroid . Pls help me.

----------


## panntastic

172lbs at 5'8" isn't bad as a base at all
Could be a bit higher but its ok.
I really wouldn't do bar only even at the low doses you propose in your cycle.
Your going to shut down natural test production so may aswell do your test cyp

----------


## Lagoon Das

> 172lbs at 5'8" isn't bad as a base at all
> Could be a bit higher but its ok.
> I really wouldn't do bar only even at the low doses you propose in your cycle.
> Your going to shut down natural test production so may aswell do your test cyp


Hi panntastic ,
So, U r telling I should add test cyp, with my cycle. So, What will b my PCT ? I have clomid, nolva & arimidex in hand right now.

----------


## panntastic

> Hi panntastic ,
> So, U r telling I should add test cyp, with my cycle. So, What will b my PCT ? I have clomid, nolva & arimidex in hand right now.


I'm just saying any oral should not be ran alone and test should be the base of any cycle buddy.

Adex is an AI you will run through the cycle to control estrogen levels.

You should really do more research if you don't know what basic pct layout looks like.

People are more willing to help if you lay out your entire cycle including ai and pct doses and timings

----------


## grnmnky

MK,
Thanks for all the info on first cycle. In your opinion, is there any other oral that can be run first cycle? I only ask because I'm looking for a little size but really want to cut. I'm 40 years old, 6'2", 210lbs., 14% bf. I've been lifting hard for just over three years and my diet is damn near perfect. It seems the older I get the harder it is to maintain. I'm going to run testc starting in august and already have everything necessary per your recommendations but its my first cycle and I want it to be my best.

----------


## grnmnky

> He's not going to be able to answer you unfortunately buddy he's no longer here 
> 
> But your stats sounds good 
> I would forget the orals if this is your first cycle roll with the cyp 500 mg week for 12 weeks and then hit pct 2 weeks later


Good enough. Thx bro.

----------


## AliYousaf

Hi!! I have just completed my first ever cycle and its been two weeks already. I am on second day of PCT. I have had no gyno, no acne and none other side effects that have been long associated with cycles. Thanks to all the help provided in these forums and especially this thread. 

I just wanted to thank each and everyone here in this thread who was any help to me and to noobs like me. You guys are amazing I really appreciate your concern and support. And especially Mickey bro the OP of this thread who never seizes to help. 

Thanks you all.

Sent from my iPhone.

----------


## Spp1919

Option 1. Long Ester

Wk 1-10 Testosterone Cypionate = 200mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-10 Arimidex .25mg EOD – monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk - day before test injection.

PCT 
Begins wk 13 to wk 17

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20

*Note: If youre currently on TRT/HRT you skip PCT and simply return to your dosing protocol


This is what I'm doing for my first cycle, I don't know much about it though. Do i do Clomid and nolvadex at the same time? And I know it probably varies but what is a good price for all of these things? I just want to make sure I'm not being ripped off lol.. And are all of these 100% necessary or could I do without anything? Sorry I'm a newb

----------


## kronik420

> Option 1. Long Ester
> 
> Wk 1-10 Testosterone Cypionate = 200mg twice/wk e3.5d
> Wk 1-10 Arimidex .25mg EOD – monitor and adjust accordingly.
> Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk - day before test injection.
> 
> PCT 
> Begins wk 13 to wk 17
> 
> ...


stats?

AAS isn't for noobs.. maybe you should do some research on what it is that you will be putting into your body.....just a thought..

----------


## Spp1919

> stats?
> 
> AAS isn't for noobs.. maybe you should do some research on what it is that you will be putting into your body.....just a thought..


I'm 23, 5 11 165lbs

----------


## kawasaki

Thanks this was great

----------


## kronik420

> I'm 23, 5 11 165lbs


you need to eat...

----------


## Spp1919

> you need to eat...


I eat plenty, and if you saw me you probably wouldnt think that ( not that im fat but not skinny )but I was told to do one 200mg shot a week instead of 2? I'm just looking for feedback

----------


## kronik420

> I eat plenty, and if you saw me you probably wouldnt think that ( not that im fat but not skinny )but I was told to do one 200mg shot a week instead of 2? I'm just looking for feedback


200mg/week is a waste..

you need to eat more..

your problem is a lack of food, not a lack of steroids ...

----------


## kawasaki

Eat to get big . I eat 6 times a day even when I'm not hungry u still eat . But clean food . Eat like a cave man train like a beast . Steroids only help . You have to eat and drink lots of water . Don't drink alcohol .

----------


## kawasaki

200 mg does nothing . Do 200 mg twice a week . Like Monday and Thursday . I do 250 twice a week .

----------


## Spp1919

> Eat to get big . I eat 6 times a day even when I'm not hungry u still eat . But clean food . Eat like a cave man train like a beast . Steroids only help . You have to eat and drink lots of water . Don't drink alcohol .


I really do eat a lot and clean, but how much do you think I should weigh? And ok if I did 200mg 2x a week would the dosage of anything else change with it?

----------


## 5x10

I just got done with an oral only cycle, dbol at 20mgs a day, no test
Here are the pros and cons I experienced
Pros: gained 10 lbs, better endurance, strength up a little
Cons: joints seemed to ache all the time, maybe because my muscles were tight, out of breathe, freq headaches

When compared to an injectable cycle, I would say it was very mild
At the end of it, I jumped on a 300mg test, 200mg deca cycle
Much better!

----------


## machete7

Would you guys recommend Anavar + Test E for a first cycle?

----------


## crazy mike

> Would you guys recommend Anavar + Test E for a first cycle?


NO, didn't you read the suggested first cycle ? Wasn't it Test only. If you want more input Go to the Q n A section. Give us your stats with past history and goals. Them post your Q's and you will get a lot of response. ...crazy mike

You need to go back to post # 1 and start reading or rereading.

----------


## JSumma

> Would you guys recommend Anavar + Test E for a first cycle?


Depends...

if you are just working out and looking to pack some muscle. No. Just go with Test and save your money - anavar is $$$.

If you are an athlete in a competitive sport, possibly...

----------


## TT5

Thank you very much I found this post very helpful. However I do have a question. I was looking to run test 400 for my first cycle. Would I be able to run one of these cycles with test 400 instead of cypionate , propionate , or enanthate ?

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## TT5

I understand test 400 contains cypionate , propionate , and enanthate . This is why I am confused about how to run it. Any advice is much appreciated

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## austinite

^ run it like anything else. dose twice weekly.

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## TT5

Sorry if I misworded my question. I am actually wondering how long to run it and how my pct should be. The op states that it is different for each test. So if test 400 contains all 3 I am not sure how this should go.

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## austinite

> Sorry if I misworded my question. I am actually wondering how long to run it and how my pct should be. The op states that it is different for each test. So if test 400 contains all 3 I am not sure how this should go.



Your gear should be injected daily, or EOD to take advantage of the short ester. 12 weeks is plenty.

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## AverageGymRat

Do you guys think I will still recover enough with Clomid and Nolva with no HCG ? I don't want my gf to find it in the fridge haha

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## austinite

> Do you guys think I will still recover enough with Clomid and Nolva with no HCG? I don't want my gf to find it in the fridge haha


No one can answer that without blood work. hCG on cycle is needed if you want to better your chances and speed up recovery.

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## AD

> Do you guys think I will still recover enough with Clomid and Nolva with no HCG? I don't want my gf to find it in the fridge haha


you should read the more complete version:

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...rst-cycle.html

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## k_o_t_a_d_a

Beginner cycle with test e.. had great results.hoping to keep most of gains...3 weeks into pct now...

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## 73rr

Thanks. That helped alot with my thoughts on first cycle

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