# STEROIDS FORUM > IGF-1 LR3, HGH, and INSULIN QUESTIONS >  Insulin Use For Bodybuilding - question/answer thread

## GearHeaded

I've recently been helping some guys out through PM on how to safely and properly implement insulin protocols into their bodybuilding and addressing some of the reasons behind why its done in the first place.

So, I figured why not have an ongoing thread where peoples concerns, questions, etc.. could be openly discussed for everyone to learn and be safe.

Feel free to open the discussion with any concerns, questions, or experiences or knowledge you'd like to pass along as well.

My next post I will post about the reasoning as to why insulin is used in bodybuilding and the best way to use it for physique enhancement. as well as some basic safety protocols, use protocols, etc etc..

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## tarmyg

Good stuff! I'll never use it but I love learning so I am all ears :-)

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## GearHeaded

Some points about insulin use for bodybuilding and why and how we use it

Insulin is an “anabolic ” hormone that drives nutrients into muscle cells and turns on/promotes protein synthesis. It takes glucose from the blood and drives it into muscle cells to be stored as glycogen. When this happens and insulin “opens” the cell then other nutrients are taken in and carried along for the ride, like creatine and amino acids. The more glycogen and nutrients taken into muscle cells the bigger they get and the more they are able to grow and repair. Insulin indirectly promotes growth

Insulin is synergistic with HGH and the two of them ran together will greatly increase the production of IGF from the liver (IGF is a very anabolic growth factor). This will improve recovery, cell repair, and growth.

Continuous HGH use can cause a person to run high blood sugars, essentially making them border line diabetic. Insulin use will help keep blood sugar levels in check. Using HGH without insulin and having elevated blood sugar levels continuously will cause your pancreas to start trying to crank out more and more insulin and could eventually wear out the beta cells of the pancreas, in which case you become a true diabetic. Using exogenous insulin will give your pancreas a break and keep this from happening. So if you plan on running HGH long term at higher dosages then you should plan on using insulin as well.

There are 3 basic types of insulin used in bodybuilding. rapid acting, short acting, long acting.
Rapid acting kicks in in 20 mins and peaks in about 45 mins and is out of your system in 90. Its very quick and great post workout. Short acting kicks in in about 30 mins and peaks in about 2 hours and out of your system in a few. Its great pre-workout to sustain your intra workout nutrition for a long session and will carry over to your post workout meal. Long acting is super slow and steady release over an 18-24 hour period. Its great to keep blood sugar levels in check.

A few different ways of how I use insulin and why

During a majority of our day most of our blood is around our organs and other areas and there is not a ton of blood flow to the muscles. However, when we work out we can get about a 70% increase of blood to muscles. Blood is what contains every nutrient and everything needed for a muscle to repair and grow. So what better time to have something in your system that “opens” the cells up to receive these nutrients then when we have a ton of blood flow to the muscles we want to grow . So I primarily use insulin around the workout , pre and post.

Pre workout I take HGH, IGF, and Insulin. Then during my workout I consume a drink that contains amleopectin (fast absorbing carb), Essential Amino Acids, and Creatine. My pre workout meal (about 50 mins pre workout) contains carbs and protein. My intra workout drink contains more fast acting carbs and protein. So when I take the insulin and I’m going to workout and have a ton more blood flow to the muscles, my blood is going to be saturated with the nutrients that they need. The insulin is there to ‘drive’ these nutrients into the cells as well as replenish what I’m burning up during the workout 
Post workout I take more insulin with more protein and more carbs. This is to help replenish and recover. The nutrients and insulin will cover me for 2 hours helping speed up the building process.

Pre cardio insulin is another method I use. I dose a very small amount of insulin before my cardio sessions (which are separate time of day from my weight training) with NO carbs. This is to get my blood sugar very low. When my blood sugar is low (not going totally hypo of course) I’m better at mobilizing body fat to fuel my cardio session. Also getting blood sugar lowered is a goal when running lots of HGH cause it causes high blood sugars. 

Micro dosing insulin. I’ve used this method a few times. The main point is to help be synergestic with HGH and get more IGF production without having to take a large bolus of insulin at a single time and risk going hypo. You still get some of the nutrient uptake benefits but to a smaller degree. I now prefer doing larger bolus of insulin around the workout. 

Couple of last notes

Mess up your dosing of insulin and you will likely end up in a coma or dead. This is not like AAS where you can accidentally take 800mg instead of your planned 400mg and feel no difference.
If you plan to dose 10iu of insulin but accidentally draw 1cc and shoot that , then you’ll be in a world of hurt.

Having said that, don’t be an idiot and know precisely how to dose stuff and you’ll be just fine. Use a blood glucose meter and constantly monitor your blood sugar and learn how your body responds to the dose of insulin you took and the dose of carbs you used along with it. Play it safe and start with 10g of carbs for every 1iu of insulin, then go down from there. Eventually you’ll get to the point of knowing exactly what carbs you need for a workout if you plan to shoot 10iu pre-workout, or exactly how many iu you can get by with using with no carbs at all dependent on what your blood sugar was to start.

Fats can mess up your insulin protocol. They greatly slow down the digestion of Carbs. If you were dialed in with a certain amount of carbs for a certain dose of insulin but you consume fats with those carbs, then its going to be way off. I simply stay away from consuming fat sources when using large bolus amounts of slin.

POTASSIUM. Even more dangerous then going hypoglycemic could be going hypokalemia. That is when your blood potassium drops very low and then interrupts your heart function. You could go into heart arrhythmia or A-fib and your heart just stops and you die.
Insulin needs potassium. Insulin uses potassium to “unlock” the cell membrane and when it does this the potassium is then used up out of the blood stream , thus lowering your blood serum level of potassium. So if your injecting lots of exogenous insulin then your also using up a lot of potassium. You can easily fix going hypoglycemic by simply ingesting carbs, its not that easy with going low blood potassium though. So I recommend supplementing with potassium and eating potassium rich foods like potatoes (a great source to get your carbs and potassium in one).


Anyhow, enough said. That’s a lot in one post to chew on

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## charger69

You mentioned the effects of insulin on the muscle. If you are working a particular muscle, there will be greater blood flow to that muscle. Would the insulin have a greater effect on on the muscle that you worked because it will have more nutrients? In other words, if I have a lacking body part, and I only took insulin on the days of that muscle workout, will it bring that muscle up to speed faster?

BTW- great idea GH!

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## kelkel

Great post GH and great idea for a thread! Look forward to the Q & A's.

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## GearHeaded

> You mentioned the effects of insulin on the muscle. If you are working a particular muscle, there will be greater blood flow to that muscle. Would the insulin have a greater effect on on the muscle that you worked because it will have more nutrients? In other words, if I have a lacking body part, and I only took insulin on the days of that muscle workout, will it bring that muscle up to speed faster?


great question and the asking of it shows you get the big picture on how this all works. Theoretically the answer would be yes. especially when you think about cell signaling and when we damage a cell it begins signaling for repair.
but the body is so damn complicated and two steps ahead of us we can't say yes for sure. heck we could have such homeostatic disruption and stress from our chest workout on Monday that when we train back on Tuesday all our insulin and nutrients taken during that workout are still being used to recover our chest (the back may be being put on the 'back burner' sort to speak until the chest is repaired, idk).

I do think however we could have valid reason to practice what your question suggests. I would however do it different . instead of using insulin ONLY on your lagging body part days, I would simply double my insulin and intra workout nutrition on that day, and use smaller doses on the non lagging body part days. 
if your legs were a weak point and you trained legs once per week and therefore only did insulin once per week , then your not really getting the whole benefit of what insulin provides. you'd be cutting yourself short. run a basic insulin protocol all week and then double it with more nutrition on the leg day without cutting the rest short.

thats just my opinion . I have zero experience doing what your question suggests. however I know guys have tweaked their actual nutrition around weak body part training with success (and insulin is really a nutritional enhancement)

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## charger69

How do you dial in the carbs? First priority was to understand my bodies reaction and take a bunch of carbs. Now I am to the point of trying to dial it in so that I can cut.
3:15 am 10 egg whites, 4 corn tortillas, 1 cup oatmeal
4:30 10 iu pre workout
I only took 3 sips of 50 g carb mixture. I specifically was trying to see my tolerance 
7 am took blood 98. Finished carb drink.
7 am 10 iu post workout. Are pritein only. Intentionally did not take carbs.
9 am started feeling a little woozy. Checked blood- 67
Ate rice, rice cake, and part of second carb drink post workout. In 5 minutes I was good.

I think that I am taking in too many carbs on the first PWO since I am within the range after the workout and only 3 sips. 
I think that I could half the carb drinks before and after as long as I had the meal with carbs at 7 am. 
Please provide your feedback and if I am using the correct technique for trying to figure out how my body reacts.

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## 1moreset024

I have a question GH?

WHEN it comes to slin such as levimir and basalagar (24 hour bolus types) what is causing slow release? Esters or is it PH corrected to precipitate when infected?

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## GearHeaded

> How do you dial in the carbs? First priority was to understand my bodies reaction and take a bunch of carbs. Now I am to the point of trying to dial it in so that I can cut.
> 3:15 am 10 egg whites, 4 corn tortillas, 1 cup oatmeal
> 4:30 10 iu pre workout
> I only took 3 sips of 50 g carb mixture. I specifically was trying to see my tolerance 
> 7 am took blood 98. Finished carb drink.
> 7 am 10 iu post workout. Are pritein only. Intentionally did not take carbs.
> 9 am started feeling a little woozy. Checked blood- 67
> Ate rice, rice cake, and part of second carb drink post workout. In 5 minutes I was good.
> 
> ...


first things first , make sure you always use the exact same carb source to get you dialed in. don't use oatmeal one day then white rice another day (totally different absorption rates and will give totally diff blood sugar results). IF your going to use just your carb drink intra workout then that works just fine.
take your blood sugar before you workout and pin the insulin . you should see a reading of around 90-100 (dependent on how long before your last meal and how many carbs, but keep that meal consistent so you end up with a consistent number day by day). Then when you are done with your workout and your intra workout shake, before pinning more insulin, take your blood sugar again (I'm assuming this is going to be 1.5 - 2 hours later by time you get to having your post workout meal . . unless your doing 30min workouts is all). This blood sugar number should be 80-115. If its lower then 80 then you consumed too little carbs during the workout, if its over 115 then you consumed too much.

After doing this for a week you'll know exactly how many carbs your going to need intra workout with your 10iu of insulin. Being your dieting it is very important not to over do your carbs and blow your diet just to fuel the insulin your taking.
your insulin should be fueling your current nutrition, not your nutrition having to fuel the insulin (unless your bulking).

now thats for intra workout nutrition and pre-workout insulin use. your post workout insulin use and nutrition is going to end up being a different carb amount then your pre workout. This is because your burning through blood sugar during your workout and you won't be doing this post workout so your blood sugars will stay naturally higher , thus you'll require fewer carbs.
Test your blood sugar 2 hours after your post workout meal. adjust either the amount of insulin you used post workout or the amount of carbs you consumed dependent on your readings. if your low then either up the Carbs or lower your post workout insulin dose. If your high then cut back on the carbs in that meal (dependent on what your diet calls for).

Keep in mind if your using a short acting insulin like novalin r, that your going to have some over lap of dosing being your first dose is still going to be active 2 hours after it was injected when you likely get ready to take your second dose. This is fine because your having enough carbs to cover you.
if you were using rapid acting then this would not matter. its only in your system for 45 mins

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## GearHeaded

> I have a question GH?
> 
> WHEN it comes to slin such as levimir and basalagar (24 hour bolus types) what is causing slow release? Esters or is it PH corrected to precipitate when infected?


slow acting ones like Lantus insulin analogs were designed to have low solubility in water at a neutral pH, such as that found in body fluids . Lantus becomes completely soluble only at an acid pH of 4. Once this is injected under the skin, the acidic solution is neutralized leading to the formation of micro-precipitates. The micro-precipitates allow small amounts of insulin to be released slowly over time. This release results in a relatively constant concentration of over 22 hours with a minimal peak in activity.

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## David LoPan

GH, do you have your A1C checked often? Are you concerned with becoming insulin depended diabetic? My background as a nurse screams DO NOT take Insulin but you seem to know what you are doing. The world of bodybuilding has led to so many discoveries in AAS and Peptides so this is the first post I have ever read that makes since on why one would take insulin.

For those that might read this and do not know much about diabetes here is a little information on the subject. There are 2 types of diabetes.

Type 1: (juvenile diabetes) is an autoimmune process in the body that mistakenly destroys the insulin-producing cells, or beta cells and occurs in genetically predisposed individuals. This is something that you are born with. Some people do not know they actually have type 1 diabetes until later in life due to a number of factors.

Type 2: (Adult onset diabetes) This is when your body has too high of a sugar content and our body cells don’t respond normally to insulin. This is called insulin resistance. Your pancreas makes more insulin to try to get cells to respond. Eventually, your pancreas can’t keep up, and your blood sugar rises, setting the stage for prediabetes and type 2 diabetes. High blood sugar is damaging to the body and can cause other serious health problems, such as heart disease, vision loss, and kidney disease.

If you need more information please visit one of these sites and make an appointment with your doctor and review your risk factors for diabetes like race, body fat, family history, etc. and have your bloodwork done . IMHO you should have your A1C checked before starting using insulin. 

https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/home/index.html
American Diabetes Association®
https://dtc.ucsf.edu/

I would also like to note: GearHead is an extremely smart guy with a lot of research and training. Using insulin is not for a beginner or intermediate athletes. This is advanced stuff. Like stated before, *This is not like AAS, this stuff can kill you on your first dose!*

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## Obs

Im not gonna talk about it in the open for fear of kiddos getting the wrong idea. I see the benefits, especially with my job. Every day of the week off blast my body gets more and more drained and my muscles are in disrepair until I get a day off. I have literally came home from work 15 lbs lighter than when I left.

My hope is to bridge the gap between blasts and not lose anything because of my work. Added benefit is I have to watch my diet like a hawk and I don't have a choice . I am given two, four hour periods in the day where I can't be messing up which is good.

As David said though this is serious to no end and I don't wish any little dumbass kid that logs on here at 18 getting into his grandma's insulin because he thinks he will get jacked. 

This is hands down the most dangerous way to go about anabolics next to mibolerone and anyone considering it should know there are more effective and safer ways to go about improving muscle mass.

We have very very large vets on here that have never touched insulin so that kind of goes to show it is not imperative. I am using it because I have sold my soul to this. 

Think about what you are doing before you start using insulin

I tell my kids to listen to the things I tell them the first time because you may not get to hear me say them a second time. I say, "STOP" and you aren't listening to dad and I can't tell you again, because you have been run over by a car. 

Life isn't what we plan, gotta be smart or wind up dead early. I discourage anyone from using insulin for bodybuilding purposes at any amount. 

Honestly when I found out Dallas died eating I was instantly sure it was insulin even though it turned out it wasn't. Its no game. Be smart everyone.

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## GearHeaded

> GH, do you have your A1C checked often? Are you concerned with becoming insulin depended diabetic? My background as a nurse screams DO NOT take Insulin but you seem to know what you are doing. The world of bodybuilding has led to so many discoveries in AAS and Peptides so this is the first post I have ever read that makes since on why one would take insulin.


No I don't but I probably should. I'm due for blood work anyhow so will get it checked.

I'm actually more concerned about becoming 'diabetic' from all the growth hormone I use, not the insulin use. The insulin use is actually somewhat needed to help this out (if I did not use it then I'd be putting way to much strain on the beta cells of the pancreas and possibly burn out my ability to produce natty insulin , so taking exogenous insulin is giving these cells a break)

I woke up this morning with fasted blood glucose of 118 . Thats essentially pre-diabetic . BUT if I stopped taking the HGH and GH sercretagogues then my blood sugar would drop into the 80s. I'll take insulin with my breakfast. then later I'll take a small dose before my cardio. by time I'm home for another meal my glucose level will probably be in the 80s where it should be. so the insulin is a tool, as well as an enhancement.

me not running insulin with that much HGH and the high blood sugar that causes is probably more of a health concern then running insulin

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## GearHeaded

More info on insulin for bodybuilding 

You here some people saying that insulin is NOT anabolic and has no purpose for muscle building and will just make you fat.

well.... consider these thoughts.

Insulin is what we call a glucose disposal agent, essentially it 'opens' up the cells to receive glucose and other nutrients (which includes amino acids and also other hormones and drugs in the blood) , this causes a drop in blood glucose levels (we know as hypoglycaemia). 

Another mechanism is the effects on IGF serum levels, IGFBP serum levels and IGF Receptor affinities . We know that all insulin types can increase IGF levels, most to a significant degree, they also lower levels of IGFBP - increasing availability of IGF, another great feature of insulin is it can actually bind to the IGF-1 Receptor , especially insulin glargine which binds to the IGF Receptor with an affinity higher than that of any other insulin currently.

We also have studies indicating that insulin may decrease SHBG (sex Hormone bindings globulin) increasing availability of testosterone . We believe that insulin is antagonistic to growth hormone meaning that when one is raised the other is lowered meaning with exogenous insulin, growth hormone levels decrease, which is why GH is recommended with insulin and vice versa.

So there are many mechanisms of growth with insulin usage, 1: Nutrient shuttling, increasing the nutrients available to muscle cells, 2: IGF, increasing IGF levels, decreasing IGFBP and binding to its Receptor can cause hugely Anabolic affects to muscle cells, 3: Possibly decreasing SHBG, increasing testosterone, and other androgenic steroids availability to bind to receptors.

thats pretty anabolic in my opinion

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## GearHeaded

> I woke up this morning with fasted blood glucose of 118 . Thats essentially pre-diabetic . BUT if I stopped taking the HGH and GH sercretagogues then my blood sugar would drop into the 80s.


so 24+ hours with no HGH use, no GHRPs, and no exogenous insulin use . fasted blood sugar was 83 this morning. 

just goes to show that natty insulin production and insulin sensitivity after HGH use can bounce right back and recover that quick

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## charger69

Is there a difference if you take 20 iu all at once or 10 iu pre and post workout?
Is there a saturation point? Ie protein or creatine consumption. For example how much protein and creatine should I take to maximize the benefits and when is it being wasted?
You recommend potassium. All of the potassium I’ve seen is 100 mg which is only 3% rda: how much should we take?

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## GearHeaded

> Is there a difference if you take 20 iu all at once or 10 iu pre and post workout?
> Is there a saturation point? Ie protein or creatine consumption. For example how much protein and creatine should I take to maximize the benefits and when is it being wasted?
> You recommend potassium. All of the potassium I’ve seen is 100 mg which is only 3% rda: how much should we take?


yes there is a difference . I prefer to take slin pre and post workout, rather then one large bolus pre. the reason why is that the pre-workout insulin is going to carry you through the workout with your intra workout nutrition. the post workout insulin with your post workout meal is going to help aide and speed up recovery and is going to carry you through that post workout time when cell signaling is high .
there is also quite a bit of time between the two doses. 20 mins pre workout your pin 10iu. then your workout is probably at least an hour or more. then by time you leave the gym and get home or to work and prep your post workout meal is another 30 mins.
so your probably looking at 2+ hours between the dosing. a short acting insulin is going to kick in in 30 mins and will peak at about 2 hours. so by spacing it out you get about 4-5 hours of coverage. and thats all during a time your insulin sensitive and nutrients are going to be needed in the muscle and used up.

as for how much protein and creatine . I suggest 5g of creatine and 10g of EAAs in your intra workout drink. post workout I like 30-40g of whey isolate. and of course the amount of carbs needed to stay in your ideal blood sugar range.

potassium can be checked with blood work. if you look at your last blood work and see where your levels were, and then get new blood work while you've been running insulin and see if they are a lot lower.
I supplement with 300mg per day . but I also consume potatoes as a carb source and they are super high in potassium. 

couple things to note in regards to potassium. 
-when you are on cycle your body has a much better ability to retain electrolytes and minerals. if you use insulin when off cycle then you need to pay even more attention to your potassium intake.

-if you take in a bunch of insulin and then end up going out binge drinking with your buddies, you can very quickly strip your body of potassium. don't combine lots of insulin with lots of alcohol.

-be careful if you use diuretics that are non potassium sparing while using insulin. again you can strip your body of potassium very quickly

-if you monitor your blood pressure daily (which you should) and your monitor has the ability to catch irregular heart rhythym and one day it picks this up then thats a sign you may be very low in potassium. as potassium is involved in regulating heart rhythym (i.e., keeping control of the electrical balances of the heart)

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## kronik420

would it have the same effect if your a diabetic? type 2.

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## Obs

***Notice***

DO NOT ADMINISTER IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING STOMACH SICKNESS SUCH AS DIARRHEA OR NAUSEA

I had a terrible fight last night trying to get glucose into a stomach that wasn't accepting it. If your blood glucose is crashed and your digestive system is not accepting nutrients, you will be in for one hell of a fight.

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## GearHeaded

> ***Notice***
> 
> DO NOT ADMINISTER IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING STOMACH SICKNESS SUCH AS DIARRHEA OR NAUSEA
> 
> I had a terrible fight last night trying to get glucose into a stomach that wasn't accepting it. If your blood glucose is crashed and your digestive system is not accepting nutrients, you will be in for one hell of a fight.


very true. the best bet is to have a carb supplement drink, like carbolzye , to try and get down liquid carbs if you can.
but if your stomach is fucked up, don't even bother pinning the slin

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## GearHeaded

> would it have the same effect if your a diabetic? type 2.


yes but dependent on how insulin resistant the diabetic is (of course around your workout your going to be the most insulin sensitive)
also you have to be even more careful because more then likely your already running a long acting insulin , so dumping 15iu of fast acting pre-workout on top of that could really drop the blood sugar.

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## Obs

> very true. the best bet is to have a carb supplement drink, like carbolzye , to try and get down liquid carbs if you can.
> but if your stomach is fucked up, don't even bother pinning the slin


I struggled for two hours to get my blood over 70 and I was chowing down on everything. Miserable night.

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## kronik420

> yes but dependent on how insulin resistant the diabetic is (of course around your workout your going to be the most insulin sensitive)
> also you have to be even more careful because more then likely your already running a long acting insulin , so dumping 15iu of fast acting pre-workout on top of that could really drop the blood sugar.


Type 2. Don't take insulin. Just metformin

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## GearHeaded

> Type 2. Don't take insulin. Just metformin


ok well the metformin is just acting as a GDA and helping out your insulin sensitivity anyways . so yes you would have the same effect from insulin use pre and post workout as a non diabetic would.
whats your fasted blood sugar generally run ?

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## kronik420

Last time I checked was high. 13 ish normal range is 4 - 6

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## GearHeaded

as a diabetic its actually HGH that is more of a concern then insulin use. HGH would definitely throw off your A!C reading on a blood test

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## GearHeaded

> Last time I checked was high. 13 ish normal range is 4 - 6


ok thats mmil/L. . I'm in the US we use mg/dl. if my math is correct then that is 234 mg/dl, which is very very high. was that fasted first thing in the morning? how much metformin do you take?
you would probably benefit from taking exogenous insulin

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## kronik420

Yea was fasted. Prescribed 1000mg 2x daily

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## kronik420

I've got a thing to go get blood work done. Probably go in the morning get it done. Well in like 4 hours

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## GearHeaded

I'd get with your doctor. get your A1c checked. he may end up prescribing you insulin . then you can always supplement more around your workouts and take advantage of it for bodybuilding purposes as well

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## kronik420

When I was diagnosed at 13 years old. BGL was about twice that around 26.6

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## kronik420

> I'd get with your doctor. get your A1c checked. he may end up prescribing you insulin. then you can always supplement more around your workouts and take advantage of it for bodybuilding purposes as well


Was thinking exactly that

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## kronik420

lol found 2 blood work forms, guess it's been a while since ive gone... says

Glucose; Glycosolated haemoglobin (Hb Alc); Lipid studies (chols/trig);HDL (including LDL; LFT; Urea, electrolytes, creatinine; FBE; ALBUMIN/CREATININE RATIO; iron studies (iron, transferrin and ferritin); vitamin D

fk looks like they gonna take a few vials...

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## GearHeaded

> When I was diagnosed at 13 years old. BGL was about twice that around 26.6


least you know the metformin works for you , but again you probably need a little more help controlling that blood sugar

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## charger69

> I struggled for two hours to get my blood over 70 and I was chowing down on everything. Miserable night.


Why does Obs struggle and I can feel better in 5 minutes? I fear that I have a false sense of security. My intraworkout carb drink is all I need, however at first I used rice and that worked well.

I know that people are different and different carbs have different absorption rates, but 5 minutes to 2 hours is drastically different.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## GearHeaded

> Why does Obs struggle and I can feel better in 5 minutes? I fear that I have a false sense of security. My intraworkout carb drink is all I need, however at first I used rice and that worked well.
> 
> I know that people are different and different carbs have different absorption rates, but 5 minutes to 2 hours is drastically different.


Obs is running Humalog , rapid acting insulin (you get a full peak in like 30 mins then its out of system), your using Novalin r, a short acting insulin which is a bit more steady and slower acting then Humalog , it kicks in in about 30 mins but does not peak until 1.5 to up to 2 hours later. If Obs takes 15iu then he's going to get 15iu in the blood stream rather quickly . If you take 15iu its going to be bit more slower and steady and easier to control blood sugar (it gives you time to drink your carb drink, get a meal in etc..)

also insulin sensitivity . if a guy is more insulin sensitive then he is able to much more efficiently drive glucose into muscle cells and that will lower blood sugar quicker then someone that is not quite as insulin sensitive. more chance of going hypo

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## Obs

> Obs is running Humalog , rapid acting insulin (you get a full peak in like 30 mins then its out of system), your using Novalin r, a short acting insulin which is a bit more steady and slower acting then Humalog , it kicks in in about 30 mins but does not peak until 1.5 to up to 2 hours later. If Obs takes 15iu then he's going to get 15iu in the blood stream rather quickly . If you take 15iu its going to be bit more slower and steady and easier to control blood sugar (it gives you time to drink your carb drink, get a meal in etc..)
> 
> also insulin sensitivity . if a guy is more insulin sensitive then he is able to much more efficiently drive glucose into muscle cells and that will lower blood sugar quicker then someone that is not quite as insulin sensitive. more chance of going hypo


Novolog

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## GearHeaded

> Novolog


ok so a very rapid acting insulin . pretty much the same thing as humalog as for as action is concerned , but Novolog actually kicks in even quicker then Humalog.

so basically Novolog is so quck acting you would NOT want to pin it at home, and then drive to the gym and get your intra workout shake ready and then sip on it (you could go hypo driving to the gym) you'd want to take the Novolog at the same time you begin taking in your carbs.

With Novolin however I can take that and not start taking in my carbs for a good 30 mins or so later.

I like Both, they both serve a purpose

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## Obs

> ok so a very rapid acting insulin . pretty much the same thing as humalog as for as action is concerned , but Novolog actually kicks in even quicker then Humalog.
> 
> so basically Novolog is so quck acting you would NOT want to pin it at home, and then drive to the gym and get your intra workout shake ready and then sip on it (you could go hypo driving to the gym) you'd want to take the Novolog at the same time you begin taking in your carbs.
> 
> With Novolin however I can take that and not start taking in my carbs for a good 30 mins or so later.
> 
> I like Both, they both serve a purpose


Interesting, I thoight humulin and novalin were faster acting but I guess I was confusing fast acting with shorter duration.

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## GearHeaded

> Interesting, I thoight humulin and novalin were faster acting but I guess I was confusing fast acting with shorter duration.


Novolog is rapid acting insulin (thats thats the fastest acting insulin as far as when it kicks in)

Novolin R (r stands for 'regular') is a regular or 'short' acting insulin . not as fast as rapid acting in regards to when it kicks in


we can look at charts and see when these things peak and the onset , but really whats most important is when is the drug in my system and beginning to drive down blood sugar. this is the most important thing for non diabetics because when we go to take insulin we will have normal blood sugars to begin with, and they can get driven down to hypo rather quickly (whereas a diabetic may take this drug and have very high blood sugar to begin with)

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## charger69

> Obs is running Humalog , rapid acting insulin (you get a full peak in like 30 mins then its out of system), your using Novalin r, a short acting insulin which is a bit more steady and slower acting then Humalog , it kicks in in about 30 mins but does not peak until 1.5 to up to 2 hours later. If Obs takes 15iu then he's going to get 15iu in the blood stream rather quickly . If you take 15iu its going to be bit more slower and steady and easier to control blood sugar (it gives you time to drink your carb drink, get a meal in etc..)
> 
> also insulin sensitivity . if a guy is more insulin sensitive then he is able to much more efficiently drive glucose into muscle cells and that will lower blood sugar quicker then someone that is not quite as insulin sensitive. more chance of going hypo


I forgot, Obs likes livng on the edge.
Ok, so Novalog is fast acting which means that You have a very short window to cram the nutrients in the cells. Is there a point of saturation where you do not get the max absorption due to saturation?
Or is it like pinning ED as opposed to 2x week? Every day helps keep serum levels consistant however the body utlizes the same amount as if you pinned 2x wk there are just bigger peaks that only have more pronounced sides

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## Obs

> Novolog is rapid acting insulin (thats thats the fastest acting insulin as far as when it kicks in)
> 
> Novolin R (r stands for 'regular') is a regular or 'short' acting insulin . not as fast as rapid acting in regards to when it kicks in
> 
> 
> we can look at charts and see when these things peak and the onset , but really whats most important is when is the drug in my system and beginning to drive down blood sugar. this is the most important thing for non diabetics because when we go to take insulin we will have normal blood sugars to begin with, and they can get driven down to hypo rather quickly (whereas a diabetic may take this drug and have very high blood sugar to begin with)


Be damned. Yeah that chart was misleading

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## charger69

somewhere you wrote that you use slin of 2-3 iu in a fasted state to do cardio to promote fat loss.
If you do cardio in the afternoon, can you still use 2-3 of slin without carbs to improve fat loss?

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## GearHeaded

> somewhere you wrote that you use slin of 2-3 iu in a fasted state to do cardio to promote fat loss.
> If you do cardio in the afternoon, can you still use 2-3 of slin without carbs to improve fat loss?


yes. but you may need a slight amount more, depending on where your blood sugar level is before the cardio session. the point is to lower your blood sugar and do cardio in a 'slightly' hypo state to promote lipolysis.
you can get into a fat burning state much quicker when your glucose levels are low. insulin is just a quick tool to help you get there.

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## AlphaMindz

Ok.....so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the main benefit from using insulin is to help your pancreas while running HGH to help mitigate the constant demand for insulin...? And then there's a host of other benefits like delivering more nutrients to the muscle cells, accentuating meal timing (by exaggerating insulin responses pre and post WO with exo slin), lowering blood sugar to help metabolize stubborn fat and also to make your body better at accessing fat stores during cardio (I imagine this effect would be increased during lifting to some extent as well..?) Now here's the potential deal breaker for me, personally. Similar to what happens to your hpta when supplementing exo sex hormones, does that happen to an insulin users pancreas? Will your pancreas eventually stop making insulin (or severely cut back production) due to prolonged insulin usage? The other concern I'd have (although not as big as the first concern) is will using insulin in combination with HGH cause that bloated belly look that a lot of modern body builders are sporting?? I feel that the physiques in the 70's were among the most aesthetically pleasing physiques I've seen in body building, although granted those guys were no where near as big as the guys from the 90's 2000's and today.. I personally would like to compete in men's physique and that's partly due to not wanting that bloated hgh/insulin gut which one pretty much HAS to accept if they wanna compete with the big boys in today's body building. However, I'm still so far away from achieving that goal so by the time I'm getting closer to that being a reality for me maybe my mind will change! (I'm not an idealist but a realist and know that once I'm balls deep I may easily say "f*ck it I have what it takes to beat this big f*ckers.. Bloated gut? So be it" lol.. Anyway, I'm digressing...Those are my main two questions atm so pls when you find the time drop a knowledge bomb on me as I know you do so well brotha lol!

Wanted to add - how long have you been using hgh/slin cause from your avatar it doesn't seem as though you have that bloated belly thing going on..?

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## GearHeaded

> Ok.....so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the main benefit from using insulin is to help your pancreas while running HGH to help mitigate the constant demand for insulin...?


this is "A" benefit , but not the main benefit. yes HGH use will cause your pancreas to have to crank out more insulin and if doing high dosages long term that might wear our the beta cells of the pancreas and thus cause diabetes . adding exogenous insulin gives the pancreas a rest.

The MAIN benefit of insulin use in bodybuilding is for its Anabolic effect. you can run insulin solo with no HGH or AAS use and get anabolic effects from it (if the timing and nutrient intake is on point). its ability to open up muscle cells to take in glycogen, amino acids, creatine, and other nutrients is the the starting point and basis for muscle growth. Without that ability we can never grow.





> And then there's a host of other benefits like delivering more nutrients to the muscle cells, accentuating meal timing (by exaggerating insulin responses pre and post WO with exo slin), lowering blood sugar to help metabolize stubborn fat and also to make your body better at accessing fat stores during cardio (I imagine this effect would be increased during lifting to some extent as well..?)


again driving these nutrients into muscle cells is the primary benefit of insulin. using insulin at low dose to lower blood sugar before a cardio session is not the 'main' use of insulin in bodybuilding at all, but it is a tactic that guys can use (over and above normal insulin use)..
the insulin use during your workout is not at all geared towards lowering blood sugar or fat mobilization. Blood sugar generally increases during this time as we take in our pari workout nutrition , it then decreases towards the end of the workout.. the main goal here is to shuttle as much nutrients into the muscle cells as possible while there is a ton of blood flow going to the muscles . your taking advantage of all this blood flow to a given area by taking in the insulin and the amino acids and nutrients, the blood is the transportation , when the transportation is going to an area you want to be at , then thats when we put the things in we want transported. 

if during most the day my blood is hanging around my organs and other areas, then I workout my legs and 70% of all my blood is now going to my legs, then its at this time I want the anabolic substrates transported to my legs (insulin , glycogen, aminos, creatine etc..). your taking advantage of the 'free ride'





> Now here's the potential deal breaker for me, personally. Similar to what happens to your hpta when supplementing exo sex hormones, does that happen to an insulin users pancreas? Will your pancreas eventually stop making insulin (or severely cut back production) due to prolonged insulin usage?


no, not that I'm aware of or informed about. the beta cells that produce insulin do not work in any way like the HPTA does. they are never 'shut down', even when you take exogenous insulin your beta cells still produce insulin when you eat, its just that now with exogenous insulin it does not have to produce near as much.





> The other concern I'd have (although not as big as the first concern) is will using insulin in combination with HGH cause that bloated belly look that a lot of modern body builders are sporting??


the bloated extended stomachs are not directly from insulin use nor HGH use , its from uncontrolled levels of IGF (which yes HGH and insulin do elevate IGF) and mis use and abuse of slin and HGH. This is why timing your HGH and insulin use is very important . I'll explain.

If you have high levels of IGF floating around your blood stream and your crushing your workout or you just finished then there is going to be 'cell signaling' going on ,, IGF is going to respond to this signal and go to the muscle cells for repair and building. BUT IGF does not just go to build skeletal muscle cells, its not biased towards muscle . it will grow and repair any cells. if all we want is muscle cells to grow then you want to try and time things for your IGF to be elevated during and after your workout. thats hard to do.

now lets say you have super high levels of IGF floating around your blood stream and its your day off .. your just crushed a 3000 calorie meal. The intestines and the smooth muscles of the stomach and gut are all working real hard at digesting all that food. guess what is now sending the signal for cell growth ? yep, your gut. IGF is being signaled to repair and grow your gut. not what we want, not the timing that we want. thats why we shouldn't abuse and over do the HGH and insulin use.

Some of these guys are taking 100+ iu of insulin every day and 20iu of HGH.. they do it all day long, they don't time it. they are just flowing with IGF all all the time. their stomach as well as other things will grow.

this is why I only recommend bolus doses of insulin pre and post workout (along with HGH). that way your IGF levels spike towards the end of your workout or just after, and the cells signaling for repair will be muscle cell. this is also why I don't personally exceed more then 30iu of slin in a day. I don't want to have spill over at times that I don't have muscle cell signaling. 





> I personally would like to compete in men's physique and that's partly due to not wanting that bloated hgh/insulin gut which one pretty much HAS to accept if they wanna compete with the big boys in today's body building.


plenty of physique and classic physique guys run GH and Slin . they just run it in smaller doses pari workout ,, unlike some of the open class body builders that need to get huge and they take high doses all day long.





> Wanted to add - how long have you been using hgh/slin cause from your avatar it doesn't seem as though you have that bloated belly thing going on..?


I've been running HGH for years off and on . started about 6 years ago. insulin use has been over the last couple years off and on.
I have a 29" waist . but I don't abuse shit and I've tried to educate myself on the science behind this stuff and how it works so I can avoid negative and unwanted side effects.
I also have clients that depend on my advice and I surely don't want to fuck their physique up or give them unwanted sides either . so its my job to try and know this shit as best I can

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## AlphaMindz

Ok, that's a lot to take in lol. I do appreciate your articulate style of writing and what you say makes perfect sense to me, but it's still a lot of info to digest! The fact that using exo insulin does NOT cause damage to your pancreas, and actually inversely, saves it from wearing out the beta cells if one is running growth is a huge selling point for me.

I was under the impression that guys who run insulin essentially become diabetic in the sense that they're body's become dependent upon exo insulin. The fact that this is NOT the case is very interesting to me. 

Thank you for taking the time to properly explain this topic as I feel it is a very misunderstood part of bodybuilding. If one has decided to start running growth hormone for reasons discussed in this thread, and they want to do it safely and responsibly, from what I gather from your information then the safest way to do it is in combination with insulin.. It's a big step, though, IMO...I'm thinking I'm gonna start running growth at a relatively low dose 3ius/day and after some time I'll start experimenting with insulin in small doses to get familiar with it...Thanks for the insight mang

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## GearHeaded

nothing wrong with just running HGH for now. I suggest purchasing a blood glucose monitor and getting into the habit of monitoring your blood glucose BEFORE taking HGH and then continue monitoring it when taking HGH and see how much its effecting your fasted and post meal blood sugar.
you can pick one up at Walmart for like $10

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## kelkel

> I have a 29" waist .



Prick.

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## GearHeaded

> Prick?


thats a little over 8 inches

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## kelkel

> thats a little over 8 inches



I guess with a tiny waist you can't have everything.

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## JackMan017

Thank you GearHeaded for this incredible information. While I have no plans to use it, it's an incredible feeling to be able to read about this information and learn. As well as all the other information you contribute to other posts, I feel blessed to have you here.

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## charger69

> Thank you GearHeaded for this incredible information. While I have no plans to use it, it's an incredible feeling to be able to read about this information and learn. As well as all the other information you contribute to other posts, I feel blessed to have you here.


Hes just a computer so he doesnt understand feelings. LOL


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## cousinmuscles

Why would low blood sugar levels contribute to fat loss? What's the mechanism triggering the fat loss such that it can be emulated instantly with insulin ?

Nice thread BTW

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## GearHeaded

> Why would low blood sugar levels contribute to fat loss? What's the mechanism triggering the fat loss such that it can be emulated instantly with insulin ?
> 
> Nice thread BTW



well despite what Palumbo recently said when he answered this same question just off the cuff without really thinking about it (he said it was a kooky idea to pin slin prior to cardio, even though coaches and gurus with higher levels of education and degrees them him promote this),, lower level of blood glucose induces lipolysis (if its for a short duration, long term low blood sugar may do the opposite by slowing down metabolism ).

think about it , if you got kids and you see them eat a shit ton of pop and candy or sweets, 30 mins later they are bouncing off the walls full of energy cause they have all that glucose/sugar to burn off for fuel.

glucose is energy, we store this energy in either the liver, muscle, fat, or the blood stream .. and the body utilizes it from these different areas dependent on the demand (e.g... weight training will burn up blood glucose AND muscle glucose/glycogen for energy).

If we are about to do steady state cardio, and we have a fairly decent amount of blood sugar floating around the blood stream to be used as energy, then your body will tap into that glucose for energy and then after that is used up it starts oxidizing fat for energy (it can actually somewhat use both at the same time). so if we go into a non glycogen dependent cardio session with lower blood sugar then we will burn more fat for energy . steady state LISS is a form of cardio that doesn't use glycogen , where as HIIT does . so if you did HIIT cardio then going into it with low blood sugar makes no difference, its just going to use muscle glycogen anyways. going into LISS cardio with lower blood sugar to start will help burn more fat

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## charger69

> well despite what Palumbo recently said when he answered this same question just off the cuff without really thinking about it (he said it was a kooky idea to pin slin prior to cardio, even though coaches and gurus with higher levels of education and degrees them him promote this),, lower level of blood glucose induces lipolysis (if its for a short duration, long term low blood sugar may do the opposite by slowing down metabolism ).
> 
> think about it , if you got kids and you see them eat a shit ton of pop and candy or sweets, 30 mins later they are bouncing off the walls full of energy cause they have all that glucose/sugar to burn off for fuel.
> 
> glucose is energy, we store this energy in either the liver, muscle, fat, or the blood stream .. and the body utilizes it from these different areas dependent on the demand (e.g... weight training will burn up blood glucose AND muscle glucose/glycogen for energy).
> 
> If we are about to do steady state cardio, and we have a fairly decent amount of blood sugar floating around the blood stream to be used as energy, then your body will tap into that glucose for energy and then after that is used up it starts oxidizing fat for energy (it can actually somewhat use both at the same time). so if we go into a non glycogen dependent cardio session with lower blood sugar then we will burn more fat for energy . steady state LISS is a form of cardio that doesn't use glycogen , where as HIIT does . so if you did HIIT cardio then going into it with low blood sugar makes no difference, its just going to use muscle glycogen anyways. going into LISS cardio with lower blood sugar to start will help burn more fat


A little off topic, but can you explain the part about LISS and HIIT and the use of glycogen. Now I can see where some studies may be misleading. 


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## GearHeaded

> A little off topic, but can you explain the part about LISS and HIIT and the use of glycogen. Now I can see where some studies may be misleading.


Sure. if you follow any pro bodybuilders you'll see some of them doing a depletion phase a week or so out from a show followed by a carb back load day before and of the show. The depletion workouts are for glycogen depletion. a lot of this is done in their weight training as thats glycogen dependent , but for cardio you'll see some of them switching over from steady walking on a treadmill cardio to doing a spin bike with high intensity or the step mill or super incline treadmill with higher intensity. Reason is for more glycogen depletion.

think of the difference between a brisk walk or riding a bike up a steep hill . they can both be considered cardio, but the steady walk does not use glycogen , where as the bike uses a ton of glycogen. the bike requires contraction of muscles to power the bicycle, thats one reason why it uses glycogen as its fuel source. the walk does not.

so LISS cardio or MISS cardio on a treadmill will burn up blood sugars and oxidize fat for fuel.. the HIIT training will use these as well but with the resistance and intensity amped up it taps into glycogen.

a lot of the studies comparing HIIT to LISS can be skewed because of this . and they are really only accounting for calories burned. Sure a high intensity session of HIIT for 20 mins will keep your body systems revved up for an hour or two after the session is over and thus burn more calories. But a MISS cardio session done for a steady hour may end up oxidizing more actual fat (more of the calories burnt and from fat and not some fat plus a bunch of glycogen).

of course none of these studies are generally done on bodybuilders using a bunch of gear, drugs , and fat burners .. and this would skew the results to an entirely different level.

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## GearHeaded

just in case anyone is wondering why someone would want to deplete glycogen before going into a bodybuilding show. I'll explain..

super compensation--

heres a crappy analogy.. think of a small bucket of water that physically can hold 1 gallon of water, but the water supply is such that it only fills it 3/4 of the way full and this is done by a signal that the bucket is sending to the faucet,, when the bucket gets down to half way it slowly trickles in more water until that 3/4 mark again. it aways does this slowly..
now say the bucket spills and is now completely empty, lets say the bucket and faucet see's this as a state of emergency and the faucet is turned on full blast, when the bucket gets to that 3/4 full mark and 'then' sends the signal to the faucet, which is going full blast, by time the faucet registers that signal and turns off , its actually filled the bucket way past the 3/4 mark and now the bucket is completely full.

it 'super compensated' because of the presumed state of emergency being without water all together..

Same with glycogen storage. 

if we deplete all of our glycogen store this is a bit of an emergency situation to the body. Then we suddenly and rapidly with a bunch of Insulin and a shit ton of Carbs blast the body with all this glucose the body will then fill up these glycogen stores to a much greater capacity then they were before, because its super compensated.

now with a lot more glycogen and water in the muscle cells , the muscle will look much bigger, fuller, rounder, and harder.

and to tie things back to the topic of this thread, insulin can be used as a tool to help accomplish this

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## charger69

> just in case anyone is wondering why someone would want to deplete glycogen before going into a bodybuilding show. I'll explain..
> 
> super compensation--
> 
> heres a crappy analogy.. think of a small bucket of water that physically can hold 1 gallon of water, but the water supply is such that it only fills it 3/4 of the way full and this is done by a signal that the bucket is sending to the faucet,, when the bucket gets down to half way it slowly trickles in more water until that 3/4 mark again. it aways does this slowly..
> now say the bucket spills and is now completely empty, lets say the bucket and faucet see's this as a state of emergency and the faucet is turned on full blast, when the bucket gets to that 3/4 full mark and 'then' sends the signal to the faucet, which is going full blast, by time the faucet registers that signal and turns off , its actually filled the bucket way past the 3/4 mark and now the bucket is completely full.
> 
> it 'super compensated' because of the presumed state of emergency being without water all together..
> 
> ...


Oh mighty supercomputer, You never cease to amaze me! I may be slow, but the light bulb does come on. I read many studies on HIIT vs LISS and I did not remember them mentioning glycogen. 
The glycogen depletion is Sort of the same action as when dehydrating. Drink a bunch of water and condition the body to release it and then stop. By the time the body realizes, you are on your way to dehydration.


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## Iron Frenchie

Last time I checked my igf-1 I was 355 ng/ml. How beneficial would it be to use GH?

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## GearHeaded

> Last time I checked my igf-1 I was 355 ng/ml. How beneficial would it be to use GH?


what compounds were you taking when that blood work was done ?

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## Iron Frenchie

> what compounds were you taking when that blood work was done ?


Nothing at all.

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## GearHeaded

have you gotten a GH blood serum test done

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## Iron Frenchie

> have you gotten a GH blood serum test done


Nope never had that done. My glucose serum was 62 mg/dl. Test was done the morning.

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## cousinmuscles

I'm not well read in studies on the subject but I get the point you make. I eat high fiber low carbs during cuts and it works well for me mostly because of the glycogen depletion, though when I measure my blood glucose before meals it is pretty equal as when bulking (I'll have to measure a lot to make sure it's the same though but I think my body regulates this pretty well) my assumption was that forcing the body to release glucose from storages and regulate itself in opposite terms from when bulking (being underfed vs overfed) is what creates a good fat loss environment. So the short term drop in blood glucose triggers this response? I know elaborate questions lol but I assumed it had little to do with blood sugar at any given moment but more so with being low on storages. So this is what confused me, insulin comes when you feed, wouldn't this also tell the body "I just got fed". I know from experience that having meals close to cardio sessions is a bad idea. But if lowering blood sugar doesn't signal "I'm fed" but forces you to release glucose later on and triggers the same "I'm underfed" response i then understand why. Might do some experiments  :Smilie: 

Re: Dave palumbo, I watch his stuff too but mostly for the news. I think he has good stuff to tell but sometimes you can just tell he's in it for the money and just pulls up a bunch of cookie cutter replies to questions lol.

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## charger69

> I'm not well read in studies on the subject but I get the point you make. I eat high fiber low carbs during cuts and it works well for me mostly because of the glycogen depletion, though when I measure my blood glucose before meals it is pretty equal as when bulking (I'll have to measure a lot to make sure it's the same though but I think my body regulates this pretty well) my assumption was that forcing the body to release glucose from storages and regulate itself in opposite terms from when bulking (being underfed vs overfed) is what creates a good fat loss environment. So the short term drop in blood glucose triggers this response? I know elaborate questions lol but I assumed it had little to do with blood sugar at any given moment but more so with being low on storages. So this is what confused me, insulin comes when you feed, wouldn't this also tell the body "I just got fed". I know from experience that having meals close to cardio sessions is a bad idea. But if lowering blood sugar doesn't signal "I'm fed" but forces you to release glucose later on and triggers the same "I'm underfed" response i then understand why. Might do some experiments 
> 
> Re: Dave palumbo, I watch his stuff too but mostly for the news. I think he has good stuff to tell but sometimes you can just tell he's in it for the money and just pulls up a bunch of cookie cutter replies to questions lol.


Your whole cut cycle is low carb? If so, you are a better man than me!


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## GearHeaded

> I'm not well read in studies on the subject but I get the point you make. I eat high fiber low carbs during cuts and it works well for me mostly because of the glycogen depletion, though when I measure my blood glucose before meals it is pretty equal as when bulking (I'll have to measure a lot to make sure it's the same though but I think my body regulates this pretty well) my assumption was that forcing the body to release glucose from storages and regulate itself in opposite terms from when bulking (being underfed vs overfed) is what creates a good fat loss environment. So the short term drop in blood glucose triggers this response?


Being in a chronically low blood sugar state and completely depleted of glucose and glycogen stores , Imo, is NOT the best situation for fat loss. These conditions will greatly effect the metabolism and make it slow way way down, as the body senses its in a "starvation" scenario. it will hold on to fat and slow the metabolism down to try and preserve stored calories.

This does not happen with a short temporary drop in blood sugar however.

Also , when you look at Pro bodybuilders like Phil Heath dieting down for Mr Olympia and trying to get down to 5% body fat. He does not want to deplete glucose or glycogen stores during this dieting phase . just the opposite, he eats every 2 hours. about 5500 calories per day (which is a very small deficit for him).. the reason he is constantly eating is to keep the metabolism revving along at full speed. heck he is burning 900 calories a day just in the digestion process of that food (thats like a 3 hour cardio session just right there). If he got too depleted , like your suggesting, then his metabolism would crash and slow way down, and he would not be able to burn body fat while eating a shit ton of food to maintain 255 pounds of muscle .

I'm on a Recomp/cut myself right now. I'm working with a pro level coach. he has me on 3300 calories. some days I'm consuming upwards of 500 grams of carbs. yet the goal with the diet is to get shredded by the end of my 12 week prep.

Sound confusing why I'd be eating so much while cutting ??  :Smilie:  well there are ways to burn fat without starving yourself. most open class pro's eat a shit ton of food getting down to 5% body fat.





> I know elaborate questions lol but I assumed it had little to do with blood sugar at any given moment but more so with being low on storages. So this is what confused me, *insulin comes when you feed,* wouldn't this also tell the body "I just got fed". I know from experience that having meals close to cardio sessions is a bad idea. *But if lowering blood sugar doesn't signal "I'm fed"* but forces you to release glucose later on and triggers the same "I'm underfed" response i then understand why. Might do some experiments


I think your thinking about this 'opposite' of the way it works.. when your blood sugar gets lowered your body will release Ghrelin , which is a hunger hormone, telling you *to eat* (I'm putting this in super simple terms ,, glucose metabolism system works in much more advanced ways then I'm explaining it).. you may also be getting natty pulses of GH (as there is a connection between Ghrelin release and growth hormone ).

so low blood sugar, caused by the release of insulin does not signal "I'm Fed" , its signals "I'm hungry" .. now sure, insulin release itself happens as a result from eating a meal. but by time you've eaten this meal, digested in the stomach, turned into mash and it enters your small intestine so that nutrients can be absorbed into the blood stream (including sugars/carbs), and then your blood sugar raises and then the beta cells release insulin, and AFTER all that your blood sugar goes from being elevated to being lowered again. your ready to eat again . the insulin release resulted in "I'm hungry and need to eat" , NOT "I'm fed""

so again, insulin does not signal "I'm fed"" ,, just the opposite, by time its actually released and done its job, theres signaling for hunger hormones going on and your ready to eat again.

and its during this time , before you eat, when insulin has lowered blood sugar significantly enough to make you hungry, that you could benefit from doing cardio, get a natty pulse of HGH, and tap into stored body fat as fuel for the workout .
if your doing NON GLYCOGEN DEPLETING cardio.. steady state cardio. your body is going to hold onto that glucose it just stored as muscle glycogen so long as you don't do glycogen dependent exercise.

there is really a lot more to this and to glucose metabolism , insulin, etc.. hopefully that explains a little bit the angle I'm coming from

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## cousinmuscles

> Being in a chronically low blood sugar state and completely depleted of glucose and glycogen stores , Imo, is NOT the best situation for fat loss. These conditions will greatly effect the metabolism and make it slow way way down, as the body senses its in a "starvation" scenario. it will hold on to fat and slow the metabolism down to try and preserve stored calories.
> 
> This does not happen with a short temporary drop in blood sugar however.
> 
> Also , when you look at Pro bodybuilders like Phil Heath dieting down for Mr Olympia and trying to get down to 5% body fat. He does not want to deplete glucose or glycogen stores during this dieting phase . just the opposite, he eats every 2 hours. about 5500 calories per day (which is a very small deficit for him).. the reason he is constantly eating is to keep the metabolism revving along at full speed. heck he is burning 900 calories a day just in the digestion process of that food (thats like a 3 hour cardio session just right there). If he got too depleted , like your suggesting, then his metabolism would crash and slow way down, and he would not be able to burn body fat while eating a shit ton of food to maintain 255 pounds of muscle .
> 
> I'm on a Recomp/cut myself right now. I'm working with a pro level coach. he has me on 3300 calories. some days I'm consuming upwards of 500 grams of carbs. yet the goal with the diet is to get shredded by the end of my 12 week prep.
> 
> Sound confusing why I'd be eating so much while cutting ??  well there are ways to burn fat without starving yourself. most open class pro's eat a shit ton of food getting down to 5% body fat.
> ...


Thank you for the long post. Yes I carb up too though I have made the mistake before of not letting go lol. I haven't carb cycled the traditional way instead I just lower my carbs gradually and when I feel too tired and at the point of losing strength I carb up as well as readjust so I don't go too low on calories... Works damn good although next time I'll try regular carb cycling.

How would you compare small doses of insulin pre cardio with using ghrp/ghrh pre cardio? The ghrelin release is much higher with peptides so if the point of lowering blood glucose is to trigger that response would be equally or better done with peptides.

Thanks again

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## cousinmuscles

> Your whole cut cycle is low carb? If so, you are a better man than me!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No I oversimplified it, for my last cut you can see in the August most improved thread, I gradually lowered carbs and then carbed up depending on whether I needed it. Wanted to try carb cycling but my work is physically demanding and my performance drops if I make sudden diet changes. I try to yoyo in that range of being low on stores and refilling but I don't know the science behind it, just know that it works, thus I ask here what it is  :Smilie:  I used peptides btw GHRPs and ghrhs. Not pharma grade but they make fat loss more efficient no doubt. Too bad that source went down lol.

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## GearHeaded

> Thank you for the long post. Yes I carb up too though I have made the mistake before of not letting go lol. I haven't carb cycled the traditional way instead I just lower my carbs gradually and when I feel too tired and at the point of losing strength I carb up as well as readjust so I don't go too low on calories... Works damn good although next time I'll try regular carb cycling.
> 
> *How would you compare small doses of insulin pre cardio with using ghrp/ghrh pre cardio?* The ghrelin release is much higher with peptides so if the point of lowering blood glucose is to trigger that response would be equally or better done with peptides.
> 
> Thanks again


when on AAS carb cycling is the way to go for cutting or Recomp . When not on AAS, Keto is not a bad option. just keep experimenting and find what works best for you

regarding whats in bold --

I actually don't "compare" them , I use them all together..

here is my protocol , btw I usually get paid to give clients protocols like this  :Wink: 

upon waking I inject my GHRPs ( I may use different ones or stack them together, like CJC no Dac with GHRP2 , or hex by itself, also may have a secretagogue like MK in there as well dosing morning and night).

This is going to give me pulses of GH and raise my blood serum levels of it. about an hour later, when my blood levels of GH should be high, I then inject 2iu of Exogenous HGH, this is going to go right to the blood stream (no pulse needed) and amplify and significantly raise my already elevated blood levels of GH. I then inject HGH-Frag, which will oxidize fat for fuel, as well inject the insulin .

I'll take Yohimbe, Green tea extract , and also inject 4Ml of Synthetine.

after doing all this 30 mins later I'm on the treadmill doing my MISS Cardio and in prime fat burning mode

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## cousinmuscles

Lol honestly I'd have to quit my job to time all that. 

Tried keto in 2016 didn't find that it was that much better though who knows might try again in case I could have tweaked something for the better...

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## charger69

When carb cycling on slin, do you do it as normal and forget about the carbs required for slin?

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## GearHeaded

> When carb cycling on slin, do you do it as normal and forget about the carbs required for slin?


its best to formulate your insulin use around your diet then it is to formulate your diet around your insulin use (theres some exceptions to this if your in a massive growth phase).. so the carbs that are specified in your diet should be used around the time of your insulin use. especially if your cutting, you really don't want to have to throw in an extra 50 carbs just cause you pinned 10iu of slin .

having said that keep in mind that protein also raises blood sugar. for the average person, nearly 20% of their protein gets converted to glucose and illicits an insulin response. so you don't 'have to' just have carbs with your insulin . make your diet and timing work, you may want to have your protein and some carbs with your insulin use.
BUT that all really needs to be dialed in and you should be on top of monitoring your blood sugar and know exactly what you need to eat to keep from going hypo.

I personally inject insulin quite often with NO carbs at all (I'm currently carb cycling as well, and carb back loading and only having carbs most days late in the day). but I know exactly what 5iu of slin will do to me when my post protein meal puts me at 105 blood sugar.. 

if you slin use is all revolved around your workout timing to drive glucose and nutrients into muscle cells as much as possible. Then I high recommend you get as many carbs as your diet will allow around this time

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## charger69

When taking AAS the synthesis of protein is more efficient therefore you do not need as much as off cycle. With this being said, using slin opens up the gates to the muscles. Should you increase protein intake on AAS and slin?

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## GearHeaded

As long as your diet calls for a sufficient amount of protein to provide muscle with enough "raw material" then you should not need to adjust your diet for your insulin use in regards to protein.

having said that , the protocol I generally recommend has 10g of EAAs and 10g of BCAAs for your first insulin dose and then 30-50g of whey isolate for your second insulin dose. this is providing you that 'extra' and guarantees the aminos are going to be there in the blood stream when you use your insulin. these 'extra' aminos are over and above your normal dietary protein.

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## tarmyg

Maybe you could create a list similar to the First AAS cycle thread. A lot of information in this thread and one could piece it together but a single post might be better. It would also minimize the possibility of a newbie error.

Great read this far.

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## Paulpaul

Some good info here, I just wanted to add, there are oral carb "pastes" that usually contain around 15 grams of "-ose". Most use Dextrose, and even if you cant swallow, or keep anything in your stomach, there is some buccal, sublingual(inside areas of mouth) absorption of the sugars without even swallowing it. Squirt it in, swish it around your mouth, and if able to swallow/keep in stomach, swallow.

Other advantages:
•They aren’t as tempting to snack on as candy is.
•They contain no fat, which can slow down digestion, or fructose, which has a smaller and slower effect on blood glucose.
•The commercial products are standardized, so it’s easy to measure out a dose of 10–15 grams of carbohydrate.

When treating hypoglycemia consuming a truckload of sugars wont hasten its effectiveness.
Typical symptoms of low blood sugar, which include trembling, sweating, heart palpitations, butterflies in the stomach, irritability, hunger, or fatigue. 
Severe hypoglycemia can cause drowsiness, poor concentration, confusion, and even unconsciousness.

Play safe guys.

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## BigB04

So I started researching HGH and realized that some suggest that Insulin is needed along with HGH. As I read through this post I see that GearHead also commented that you also need to take Insulin to basically keep yourself from becoming a diabetic from HGH. Is this true with any amount of HGH or only higher amounts?

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## GearHeaded

> So I started researching HGH and realized that some suggest that Insulin is needed along with HGH. As I read through this post I see that GearHead also commented that you also need to take Insulin to basically keep yourself from becoming a diabetic from HGH. Is this true with any amount of HGH or only higher amounts?


its going to be dose and timing dependent. if you only do say one 2iu dose in the morning and thats it, then your less likely to become insulin resistant as you would from taking multiple HGH doses throughout the day and having consistently higher levels of GH .
either way , if your running HGH you should be monitoring fasted blood glucose levels.

Things like MK677 which increases your natty pulse of HGH over multiple hours of the day (it has a long half life) will make nearly everyone who takes it insulin resistant and Most peoples fasting blood sugar goes up by 20 points.

insulin use helps with lowering blood glucose, but its also synergistic with HGH and will thus help stimulate more IGF production. its also going to help take the burden off the pancreas from having to produce so much insulin by itself.

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## BigB04

> its going to be dose and timing dependent. if you only do say one 2iu dose in the morning and thats it, then your less likely to become insulin resistant as you would from taking multiple HGH doses throughout the day and having consistently higher levels of GH .
> either way , if your running HGH you should be monitoring fasted blood glucose levels.
> 
> Things like MK677 which increases your natty pulse of HGH over multiple hours of the day (it has a long half life) will make nearly everyone who takes it insulin resistant and Most peoples fasting blood sugar goes up by 20 points.
> 
> insulin use helps with lowering blood glucose, but its also synergistic with HGH and will thus help stimulate more IGF production. its also going to help take the burden off the pancreas from having to produce so much insulin by itself.


Ive learned so much from this thread, did you happen to have an HGH thread like this too? Im totally new to HGH and considering giving it a shot but I want to make sure I know a lot more about it than I currently do. Something like this to read about HGH would be awesome.

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## charger69

> As long as your diet calls for a sufficient amount of protein to provide muscle with enough "raw material" then you should not need to adjust your diet for your insulin use in regards to protein.
> 
> having said that , the protocol I generally recommend has 10g of EAAs and 10g of BCAAs for your first insulin dose and then 30-50g of whey isolate for your second insulin dose. this is providing you that 'extra' and guarantees the aminos are going to be there in the blood stream when you use your insulin. these 'extra' aminos are over and above your normal dietary protein.


What exactly is 10 g of EAAS and BCAA? I take pills and I do not understand what that relates to. My bcaa is 2:1:1. Do you add them up? 1.1 +.550+.550 per pill. So 5 pills?
EAAs is more difficult. Do I just calculate the essetial, the conditional, etc?


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## GearHeaded

> What exactly is 10 g of EAAS and BCAA? I take pills and I do not understand what that relates to. My bcaa is 2:1:1. Do you add them up? 1.1 +.550+.550 per pill. So 5 pills?
> EAAs is more difficult. Do I just calculate the essetial, the conditional, etc?


eeekk.. pills. ok well your pills are probably 500mg per capsule. so you would need 40 caps total to get 10g of each in. you need to get it in powder form to mix with your carb drink. similar to a whey isolate. its weighed out in 'grams' , which is the way food can be weighed out too.
so you need 10 physical grams of each (thats physical weight).

don't worry about the ratio of one amino to another amino or doing math with that. if your brand is high quality then the ratios will be good. you just need enough 'weight' , ie', grams of each.

just like ground beef. it can be weighed out in 'grams' , so that approx 10 grams of beef is 70 calories. well you want 10 grams of pure amino acids (the building blocks of protein). thats about one large full scoop of EAA powder from a quality brand in powder form

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## charger69

> eeekk.. pills. ok well your pills are probably 500mg per capsule. so you would need 40 caps total to get 10g of each in. you need to get it in powder form to mix with your carb drink. similar to a whey isolate. its weighed out in 'grams' , which is the way food can be weighed out too.
> so you need 10 physical grams of each (thats physical weight).
> 
> don't worry about the ratio of one amino to another amino or doing math with that. if your brand is high quality then the ratios will be good. you just need enough 'weight' , ie', grams of each.
> 
> just like ground beef. it can be weighed out in 'grams' , so that approx 10 grams of beef is 70 calories. well you want 10 grams of pure amino acids (the building blocks of protein). thats about one large full scoop of EAA powder from a quality brand in powder form


You could have left the "eeeeek" out LOL
Thanks!


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## tarmyg

> Sure. if you follow any pro bodybuilders you'll see some of them doing a depletion phase a week or so out from a show followed by a carb back load day before and of the show. The depletion workouts are for glycogen depletion. a lot of this is done in their weight training as thats glycogen dependent , but for cardio you'll see some of them switching over from steady walking on a treadmill cardio to doing a spin bike with high intensity or the step mill or super incline treadmill with higher intensity. Reason is for more glycogen depletion.
> 
> think of the difference between a brisk walk or riding a bike up a steep hill . they can both be considered cardio, but the steady walk does not use glycogen , where as the bike uses a ton of glycogen. the bike requires contraction of muscles to power the bicycle, thats one reason why it uses glycogen as its fuel source. the walk does not.
> 
> so LISS cardio or MISS cardio on a treadmill will burn up blood sugars and oxidize fat for fuel.. the HIIT training will use these as well but with the resistance and intensity amped up it taps into glycogen.
> 
> a lot of the studies comparing HIIT to LISS can be skewed because of this . and they are really only accounting for calories burned. Sure a high intensity session of HIIT for 20 mins will keep your body systems revved up for an hour or two after the session is over and thus burn more calories. But a MISS cardio session done for a steady hour may end up oxidizing more actual fat (more of the calories burnt and from fat and not some fat plus a bunch of glycogen).
> 
> of course none of these studies are generally done on bodybuilders using a bunch of gear, drugs , and fat burners .. and this would skew the results to an entirely different level.


Here is a brand new review article on this subject that would seem to be of interest to this question. 

Understanding the factors that effect maximal fat oxidation
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-018-0207-1

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## charger69

> eeekk.. pills. ok well your pills are probably 500mg per capsule. so you would need 40 caps total to get 10g of each in. you need to get it in powder form to mix with your carb drink. similar to a whey isolate. its weighed out in 'grams' , which is the way food can be weighed out too.
> so you need 10 physical grams of each (thats physical weight).
> 
> don't worry about the ratio of one amino to another amino or doing math with that. if your brand is high quality then the ratios will be good. you just need enough 'weight' , ie', grams of each.
> 
> just like ground beef. it can be weighed out in 'grams' , so that approx 10 grams of beef is 70 calories. well you want 10 grams of pure amino acids (the building blocks of protein). thats about one large full scoop of EAA powder from a quality brand in powder form


Why do you say not to worry about the ratio?


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## GearHeaded

> Why do you say not to worry about the ratio?


because the ratio is already calculated and taken care of by the manufacturer that produced the product.. so all we do is take our 10g and know the ratio of amino is within range

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## charger69

> because the ratio is already calculated and taken care of by the manufacturer that produced the product.. so all we do is take our 10g and know the ratio of amino is within range


Ok. Gotcha. They come in different ratios. I believe that the 2:1:1 ratio is the best. Anything higher is not efficient. 
L-leucine assists in protein synthesis and if taking AAS there is no need for additional synthesis. If that is the case then why do they sell higher ratios? My answer is because you hear protein synthesis and figure 10:1:1 is 5 x better than 2:1:1. I call this BS. Also higher ratios are less expensive to manufacture. L- leucine is 50-60% cheaper than valine and 60-70% cheaper than Isoleucine. Any additional insight? Is there faults in my reasoning?


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## GearHeaded

> Ok. Gotcha. They come in different ratios. I believe that the 2:1:1 ratio is the best. Anything higher is not efficient. 
> L-leucine assists in protein synthesis and if taking AAS there is no need for additional synthesis. If that is the case then why do they sell higher ratios? My answer is because you hear protein synthesis and figure 10:1:1 is 5 x better than 2:1:1. I call this BS. Also higher ratios are less expensive to manufacture. L- leucine is 50-60% cheaper than valine and 60-70% cheaper than Isoleucine. Any additional insight? Is there faults in my reasoning?


its all a gimmick or a selling point for marketing. in fact BCAA's by themselves don't even CAUSE protein synthesis , BCAAs turn on protein synthesis . But this is like turning on all the machines and lights at a factory but with no *raw material* to make the widgets . so protein synthesis is on but theres nothing to be built.

This is why you need the EAA's in there. this provides the raw material so that once Protein synthesis is on, it can actually 'manufacture' what it needs to.
EAAs are vitally more important then BCAAs Imo . but I throw 10g of both in my intra workout shake

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## charger69

Taking insulin as a PWO begins to allow nutrients into the muscle since skin opens the gates to the muscle.
Right after working out, your body naturally opens the gates for a period of up to 40 minutes. Can you get more bang for your buck by feeding your muscles during this time and then taking post workout slin and feeding your muscles again.
Will they be supersaturated like this and not take anything in? Will the PWO slin affect the natural opening of the gates after a workout?



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## charger69

> its all a gimmick or a selling point for marketing. in fact BCAA's by themselves don't even CAUSE protein synthesis , BCAAs turn on protein synthesis . But this is like turning on all the machines and lights at a factory but with no *raw material* to make the widgets . so protein synthesis is on but theres nothing to be built.
> 
> This is why you need the EAA's in there. this provides the raw material so that once Protein synthesis is on, it can actually 'manufacture' what it needs to.
> EAAs are vitally more important then BCAAs Imo . but I throw 10g of both in my intra workout shake


I love the way you explain things... I can even understand them. LOL
Yes, I did leave out the EAA details. I am glad that you picked this up because I was taking BCAA by itself until I read up on this about a year ago. The way that I explained it, o e could have fallen into the same trap that I previously did.
I still swear that you have a secretary typing your answers because they are so complete. I have a tendency to leave out details because I am lazy to type everything out. 
At least send a pic of her. LOL


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## GearHeaded

> Taking insulin as a PWO begins to allow nutrients into the muscle since skin opens the gates to the muscle.
> Right after working out, your body naturally opens the gates for a period of up to 40 minutes. Can you get more bang for your buck by feeding your muscles during this time and then taking post workout slin and feeding your muscles again.
> Will they be supersaturated like this and not take anything in? Will the PWO slin affect the natural opening of the gates after a workout?


where are all these 'nutrients' kept ? things like glucose, creatine, amino acids etc.. They are in the blood stream. in order for these nutrients to get to the cell they have to be shuttled there in the blood, and then insulin is the key that opens the cell to allow these nutrients in.

NOW.. if blood holds all these nutrients. and if normally most our blood is circulating through our body and around organs etc. and NOT going to muscle , BUT when we train suddenly 70% of our blood flow is going to our muscle. Wouldn't this be the best time to make sure our blood is loaded up with these nutrients and the insulin because this is when the delivery and transit time is at its most.

Yes. so pre workout we take insulin and as we begin to train we are taking in all these nutrients (creatine, glucose, aminos) that are being delivered to the blood stream on top of whats already in the blood stream. We get a ton of blood flow to the muscles and thus a ton of delivery and we have the insulin there to open the cells.
we do the same thing again about 30 mins post workout as there is 'cell signaling' going on form muscle damage. more insulin and more nutrients to take advantage of this cell signaling and enhance recovery. 

basically we take insulin and nutrients around the time we have the most blood flow to the muscles, being blood is the transporter and thus a very important factor in this whole process. 

an example-- if you have a bunch of luggage and want to get from Chicago to LA , a direct flight is going to be way more efficient. having 2 separate lay overs is not ..

when the very small window of time during the day that 70% of our blood is going to muscles. thats the time to jump on the 'direct flight' and take advantage of the one way trip to the muscle cell

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## Obs

> where are all these 'nutrients' kept ? things like glucose, creatine, amino acids etc.. They are in the blood stream. in order for these nutrients to get to the cell they have to be shuttled there in the blood, and then insulin is the key that opens the cell to allow these nutrients in.
> 
> NOW.. if blood holds all these nutrients. and if normally most our blood is circulating through our body and around organs etc. and NOT going to muscle , BUT when we train suddenly 70% of our blood flow is going to our muscle. Wouldn't this be the best time to make sure our blood is loaded up with these nutrients and the insulin because this is when the delivery and transit time is at its most.
> 
> Yes. so pre workout we take insulin and as we begin to train we are taking in all these nutrients (creatine, glucose, aminos) that are being delivered to the blood stream on top of whats already in the blood stream. We get a ton of blood flow to the muscles and thus a ton of delivery and we have the insulin there to open the cells.
> we do the same thing again about 30 mins post workout as there is 'cell signaling' going on form muscle damage. more insulin and more nutrients to take advantage of this cell signaling and enhance recovery. 
> 
> basically we take insulin and nutrients around the time we have the most blood flow to the muscles, being blood is the transporter and thus a very important factor in this whole process. 
> 
> ...


I have been doing a morning or noon injection and then one directly at the end of workout. My theory was if I wasn't torn down the cells didn't need it but I can certainly see your point here.

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## GearHeaded

> I have been doing a morning or noon injection and then one directly at the end of workout. My theory was if I wasn't torn down the cells didn't need it but I can certainly see your point here.


yep, if there is blood flow going to an area, its because the cells I that area need it. so we might as well catch that "free ride" and shuttle the nutrients while we have that blood flow going on

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## Obs

> yep, if there is blood flow going to an area, its because the cells I that area need it. so we might as well catch that "free ride" and shuttle the nutrients while we have that blood flow going on


I have always seen bodybuilding as a two step, tear down then repair process. Such as... Lift to tear down and have you body entirely ready for as much anabolic activity possible, immediately thereafter. 
I have always seen orals like dbol , anadrol , and even ephedrine (not aas) as mind to muscle motivators. In this sense I mean they give you the added aggression to destroy and the food you intake gives you the repair needed to grow at max potential because of the anabolic value of the AAS.

Insulin is the very thing that allows the cells to accept but if they are already loaded down to the max (preworkout) then I figured it was a waste. Post
Workout and particularly when a body finds rest, I figured as the optimum time. Like the old standard "Drink your shake within fifteen minutes post workout."

Iactually based my entire diet around that post workout time and the food and supplements I take in. 

Post workout I would:
Immediately shoot 10-20 iu slin

Drink a shake with protein bcaass and carbs

Eat a huge meal and relax.


I would literally fall asleep within a few minutes minutes (I know my blood map, sleep and slin = danger)

I considered this my optimum repair time for the workout I had done.

Not arguing but rather asking what I should change?

Btw, when I eat I crash like hell. I always figured this was my body shutting down for deep recovery... Like a lion after eating, here is the nutrients, here is the restyour body needs, and the elevatd anabolic rate is whereby maximized.

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## GearHeaded

Obs I completely get what your saying. and believe the general premise is true, BUT, its mainly true for 'natural' bodybuilding.

just like some really smart people in the industry will say that fasted cardio does not make any difference then fed cardio its all about calories in vs calories out. They may be correct, BUT why does pretty much every pro utilize fasted cardio for prep? because every pro is on gear. those of us on gear play by much different rules then every one else.. heck most the drugs that we take to lose body fat simply work way better in a fasted state.
so to tell an enhanced body builder to not utilize fasted cardio is telling him to waste his drugs.

in the fitness industry in general a lot of things are true and make sense. but a ton of things cross the line between natty and enhanced and so we got to take things in context.


natty's don't need to worry much about pre workout, intra workout, or post workout nutrition. they don't have any where near the hormonal environment and anabolic response that an enhanced guy does.
when I see a guy in my gym 'copying me' when I know he is natty, and he is carrying around his jug filled with carbs, amino acids, etc.. I kinda laugh to myself (not to be an asshole) cause I know as a natty he is not going to be able to put that to use and 'super compensate' .. I on the other hand have a hormonal environment and just injected 50mg of tren suspension, 10iu of insulin , 2iu of HGH, and swallowed 20mg of Dbol .. my body is in a state where it not only has to have that nutrition (other wise I'll go hypo and pass out) but it will make complete use of it.


SUPER COMPENSATION . if you were natty then what your saying is spot on. BUT your not. your body does not just naturally suddenly release 10iu of insulin into the blood stream, and it especially can't do this when your growth hormone levels are elevated. this is totally un-natural. so we are using exogenous hormones to create an environment that is totally un-natural and will thus lead to super compensation.

your bodies number one job is to survive. it does not want to go hypo, pass out, and die. its going to do something completely un-natural, its going to take all that insulin and all that glucose in your blood and "super compensate". your blood is going to be filled with all that insulin and glucose and nutrition, and your working out all that blood is going to be flowing to your muscles. they don't have to be already broken down to require blood and nutrients. fuck your muscles will take in the nutrition and insulin just so you don't pass out and die.
does it normally do this naturally . NO. but this is why we have un-natural 300+ pound bodybuilders  :Smilie: 

thats not the greatest or most detailed response. but my point is that taking nutrition and insulin pre-workout is going to unnaturally 'force' blood and nutrients into muscle and your ultimately going to grow and recover from doing this. again your taking advantage of the one way direct trip of blood flow into muscles. 

also, the anabolics enhance and aide in this process, increase insulin sensitivity and allow you to store more nutrients and glycogen into muscle cells then is normally or naturally possible 

also, keep in mind that 'breaking down' muscle fibers is only ONE facet of hypertrophy . another (often unknown) direct cause of muscular hypertrophy is metabolites. When your muscles get flooded with blood and all the metabolites that come with it and things like lactic acid, this is another form of 'stress' on the muscle that will cause it to adapt and grow. even though you may not break down any actual tissue, just the metabolite stress itself will cause a response.

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## Obs

> Obs I completely get what your saying. and believe the general premise is true, BUT, its mainly true for 'natural' bodybuilding.
> 
> just like some really smart people in the industry will say that fasted cardio does not make any difference then fed cardio its all about calories in vs calories out. They may be correct, BUT why does pretty much every pro utilize fasted cardio for prep? because every pro is on gear. those of us on gear play by much different rules then every one else.. heck most the drugs that we take to lose body fat simply work way better in a fasted state.
> so to tell an enhanced body builder to not utilize fasted cardio is telling him to waste his drugs.
> 
> in the fitness industry in general a lot of things are true and make sense. but a ton of things cross the line between natty and enhanced and so we got to take things in context.
> 
> 
> natty's don't need to worry much about pre workout, intra workout, or post workout nutrition. they don't have any where near the hormonal environment and anabolic response that an enhanced guy does.
> ...


Thank you for taking the time buddy! I will start utilizing pre and intra slin.

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## GearHeaded

> Thank you for taking the time buddy! I will start utilizing pre and intra slin.


be sure to use a fast acting carb drink like carbolize or karbolyn. . you really don't want to have to eat carbs while you train, especially if your going heavy and getting nauseated . carb drinks are easy to digest

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## Iron Frenchie

Without using HGH with slin and not being able to time the IGF-1 spikes what type of insulin would you use?

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## Quester

While I am not endorsing insulin use in non-diabetics there are some bits of info to add: 
Most important:
fortunately, insulin can be purchased *from a pharmacy, without a prescription.* Regular insulin (Humulin R, Novolin R)can be taken instead of rapid acting, just take it earlier.
And, NPH (Humulin N, Novolin N) can be used instead of long-acting.
*Both are cheap. Why not get an FDA inspected product from a FDA inspected source?*

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## GearHeaded

> Without using HGH with slin and not being able to time the IGF-1 spikes what type of insulin would you use?


a fast acting insulin timed around the workout, pre and post. without HGH or IGF spikes, you'll still get the benefits of nutrient partitioning and uptake of glycogen and amino acids into the muscle cells which will promote anabolism and recovery. you'll need to add in intra workout nutrition to accomplish this though.

Novalin R works just fine for this. can be purchased OTC for cheap

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## GearHeaded

> While I am not endorsing insulin use in non-diabetics there are some bits of info to add: 
> Most important:
> fortunately, insulin can be purchased *from a pharmacy, without a prescription.* Regular insulin (Humulin R, Novolin R)can be taken instead of rapid acting, just take it earlier.
> And, NPH (Humulin N, Novolin N) can be used instead of long-acting.
> *Both are cheap. Why not get an FDA inspected product from a FDA inspected source?*


I advise most guys just go to walmart and buy Novalin R for $25. Its fast acting enough and very easy to time. 3 years of insulin use with it and up to 30iu per day and I've only went hypo once.

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## Obs

> I advise most guys just go to walmart and buy Novalin R for $25. Its fast acting enough and very easy to time. 3 years of insulin use with it and up to 30iu per day and I've only went hypo once.


On that note I am running novo script and about died every 5 minutes lol!

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## GearHeaded

> On that note I am running novo script and about died every 5 minutes lol!


whats your fasting blood sugar normally run ? I'm guessing its pretty low and your pretty insulin sensitive (which is a good thing for body composition, but makes timing insulin much more difficult)

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## Quester

How about Metformin? We learned about it in Pharm a few days ago and it would seem to have some BB application. I'll start a new thread if you want.

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## GearHeaded

> How about Metformin? We learned about it in Pharm a few days ago and it would seem to have some BB application. I'll start a new thread if you want.


no worry about new thread, its context fits here. I take 500-1000mg of Metformin daily. I have clients that only take Metformin on their high carb re-feed days. its really person and situational dependent . but yes it most definitely has use in not only bodybuilding, but anti aging purposes as well

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## Obs

> whats your fasting blood sugar normally run ? I'm guessing its pretty low and your pretty insulin sensitive (which is a good thing for body composition, but makes timing insulin much more difficult)


Yes I am sensitive. I cut back to ten iu x2 per day.
Fasted is about 70 ng/dl.
Also I have since understood the feeling of hypo well enough to know that at odd times I have gone very close naturally at times on aas.

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## GearHeaded

> Yes I am sensitive. I cut back to ten iu x2 per day.
> Fasted is about 70 ng/dl.
> Also I have since understood the feeling of hypo well enough to know that at odd times I have gone very close naturally at times on aas.


I'm the opposite , but thats cause of all the HGH and GH peptides I take.. so my blood sugar never drops to low and the starting point is much higher (sometimes I'll take 5iu of slin with no carbs at all just to drive by blood sugar down)

^. just an observation for all you readers of this thread and some take home knowledge to think about. HGH and insulin together can manipulate many diff variables in the body (some healthy and some not so healthy .. some better for mass, some better for fat burning etc)

----------


## Obs

> I'm the opposite , but thats cause of all the HGH and GH peptides I take.. so my blood sugar never drops to low and the starting point is much higher (sometimes I'll take 5iu of slin with no carbs at all just to drive by blood sugar down)
> 
> ^. just an observation for all you readers of this thread and some take home knowledge to think about. HGH and insulin together can manipulate many diff variables in the body (some healthy and some not so healthy .. some better for mass, some better for fat burning etc)


I have shot 25iu with huge meals and had no ill effects but the other day I had a bad situation with 20iu. I got on the road and felt it start and was 30 minutes from carbs. Ran into mcdonalds drenched in sweat about to fall down threw $40 on the counter and grabbed a cup then ran to soda fountain. 

I made it ok though. I am to tough to die just because my blood lacks glucose lol

----------


## GearHeaded

> I have shot 25iu with huge meals and had no ill effects but the other day I had a bad situation with 20iu. I got on the road and felt it start and was 30 minutes from carbs. Ran into mcdonalds drenched in sweat about to fall down threw $40 on the counter and grabbed a cup then ran to soda fountain. 
> 
> I made it ok though. I am to tough to die just because my blood lacks glucose lol


I'll throw and interesting bit of science out here just for grins.. if you were on Keto and you were in Ketosis and you injecting 20iu of slin and could not get to carbs , you would not die. you would not go into coma.. nothing. cause your brain is not dependent on glucose and is "dual fuel'' at that time and can run on both ketone and carbs.. however if your brain runs on carbs only, and you over do the slin, it can't suddenly make Ketones as a secondary fuel source, so it shuts down and goes into a coma.

having said that.. who the shit cares. no one gets big on Ketones!

----------


## Obs

> I'll throw and interesting bit of science out here just for grins.. if you were on Keto and you were in Ketosis and you injecting 20iu of slin and could not get to carbs , you would not die. you would not go into coma.. nothing. cause your brain is not dependent on glucose and is "dual fuel'' at that time and can run on both ketone and carbs.. however if your brain runs on carbs only, and you over do the slin, it can't suddenly make Ketones as a secondary fuel source, so it shuts down and goes into a coma.
> 
> having said that.. who the shit cares. no one gets big on Ketones!


I heard you say that before it is amazing to me the body is capable of whatever it is conditioned to do

----------


## kelkel

> Yes I am sensitive.



Now that's a load of crap.

----------


## Obs

> Now that's a load of crap.


I gotta be me.

----------


## Couchlockd

gh.

can you give me a crash course on metformin regarding fat loss/fat storage and what it does for muscle growth?

i have access to literally dozens of pharmacy count bottles (ones used to dispense prescriptions) and wonder if it would be of benefit to try and implement it in,a cycle or for far loss.

----------


## Razvan

What about Novorapid? What acction time does it have? I kept looking but i can't find anything on it...

----------


## GearHeaded

> gh.
> 
> can you give me a crash course on metformin regarding fat loss/fat storage and what it does for muscle growth?
> 
> i have access to literally dozens of pharmacy count bottles (ones used to dispense prescriptions) and wonder if it would be of benefit to try and implement it in,a cycle or for far loss.


well to put it simply.. Metformin just increases insulin sensitivity. 
improvements in insulin sensitivity are from several mechanisms, including increased insulin receptor tyrosine kinase activity,, enhanced glycogen synthesis, and an increase in the recruitment and activity of GLUT4 glucose transporters.

how does increased insulin sensitivity help with body composition? Well your able to force more glucose into muscle cells instead of fat cells. this not only means lower body fat but also more muscle mass. because when insulin 'opens' a cell to receive glucose/glycogen along with that glycogen also is water, amino acids, creatine, and other nutrients that are 'anabolic ' and will build muscle. the more glycogen that goes to muscle, the more overall muscle you will be able to build.

----------


## GearHeaded

> What about Novorapid? What acction time does it have? I kept looking but i can't find anything on it...


its a "rapid" acting based insulin . which means its onset is going to be 20-30 mins. your going to want to inject it and then take in your carbs very soon after . it will last for about 2 hours

----------


## Quester

Metformin also decreases glucose production in the liver. Side effects include weight loss and decreased absorption of B-12 and folic acid.

----------


## GearHeaded

> *Metformin also decreases glucose production in the liver.* Side effects include weight loss and decreased absorption of B-12 and folic acid.


just to clarify for the readers of this thread.. whats in bold is NOT classified as a negative side effect of metformin, its an actual mechanism of action by the drug to help lower blood sugar levels (ie., for most people with high blood sugars thats a benefit and provides health and anti aging benefits)

limiting glucose production in the liver and gluconeogeneis (converting protein to sugar) is beneficial to a majority of people and why metfromin is prescribed to pre diabetics and for anti aging

should be obvious why thats beneficial for bodybuilding as well

----------


## Wintermaul

Nice post and info! I hope you can answer some more questions on the subject. Because of the fake GH around its hard to get GH where i am, but fast-acting insulin is easy to get, even if its not OTC in my country. You still think there is alot to benefit from insulin + AAS, or is it way better if i have GH too?
Milos has preached about insulin-use and claim his athletes use 10-20 iu before workout with a lot of carbs. How much iu is really needed to get a good benefit? Is there a big difference in muscle-building from 5 to 10 iu for example, yet 10 to 20iu? 
I was thinking about 5iu novorapid like 15min before workout with shake of 50grams of carbs (and maybe 20g prot) with that as im afraid to add fat if i overdo this. You think that will be enough to yield some good muscle for 4-6weeks? Or do i need 10iu before workout and another dose after workout? Could you please elaborate on that? My stats are 114kg, 189cm, bf around 11%

----------


## GearHeaded

> Nice post and info! I hope you can answer some more questions on the subject. Because of the fake GH around its hard to get GH where i am, but fast-acting insulin is easy to get, even if its not OTC in my country. You still think there is alot to benefit from insulin + AAS, or is it way better if i have GH too?
> Milos has preached about insulin-use and claim his athletes use 10-20 iu before workout with a lot of carbs. How much iu is really needed to get a good benefit? Is there a big difference in muscle-building from 5 to 10 iu for example, yet 10 to 20iu? 
> I was thinking about 5iu novorapid like 15min before workout with shake of 50grams of carbs (and maybe 20g prot) with that as im afraid to add fat if i overdo this. You think that will be enough to yield some good muscle for 4-6weeks? Or do i need 10iu before workout and another dose after workout? Could you please elaborate on that? My stats are 114kg, 189cm, bf around 11%


great questions brother!

ok, no HGH use is absolutely not necessary for insulin use in body building. however, I will say that insulin use is highly recommended for those using high dosages of HGH (or at least using Metformin). hope that makes sense.. the thing is insulin can be very anabolic all on its own and does not need HGH. however the use of HGH will likely cause you to run elevated blood sugars and the use of insulin will be beneficial (also on a side note, the use of DNP definitely warrants the use of insulin, you really should not be running DNP without insulin, as DNP causes your pancreas to stop producing endogenous insulin).
the benefit to running HGH and insulin together is that you get a synergistic effect that ends up causing the liver to produce more IGF.

I have different clients on different protocols depending on their goals. I even have some clients using insulin for cutting (yes it has its purpose even in a cut). but for massing and adding more muscle and muscle fullness I generally go with the Milos style protocol. 10iu of insulin pre workout, then sipping on 50g of high molecular weight carbohydrates during the workout, that carb drink should also contain 10-20g of EAAs, and 10g of creatine.

Why do I recommend this?

well our blood is what carries nutrients and delivers them into cells. insulin is essentially a 'key' that is able to unlock and open up a cell so that it can take in nutrients and grow. most of the time during the day and night we have very little blood flow directly into muscle. BUT when we workout we get up to 70% of all our blood flowing into the muscles that we are training... well again blood carries all the nutrients we need.
so the best time to have lots of insulin , again the key that opens the cell, and lots of muscle building nutrients like glycogen, water, creatine, amino acids, in the blood stream is when your working out and all the blood and nutrients is able to be delivered to the cell.
so thats why we take insulin pre-workout and provide our bodies with glucose and aminos and creatine.

then 30 mins after the workout for recovery, take another 10iu of insulin with 30-40g of whey isolate and more carbs in the form of white rice or white bagel (fast digesting carbs)..
then 1.5 hours later have a whole food meal containing lean protein and carbs (NO fats), so say chicken and rice. the reason for this is because you'll likely get a secondary spike in insulin levels as the insulin (like novalin r) is designed to start working in 20-30 mins after injection but will have a secondary peak about 1.5-2 hours later.

thats a basic protocol that works great and will fill you out, help you grow, and help you recover.

please note that the 10iu dosage is just a 'number'.. each individual is different. some guys I have only running 5iu, some guys I have running 15iu. just depends. also depends on if we are running insulin at other times of the day as well and not just around the workout. it also depends on how insulin sensitive you are, and I generally recommend using a glucose meter and tracking blood sugars at diff times during the day to see where your at and then using insulin accordingly.. I personally take my blood sugar reading before I workout, and use that to decide my dosage of insulin. sometimes its 10iu, sometimes its 8 or sometimes its 15,, just depends.


also you'll want to run insulin for more then just 4 weeks. to get the growth and the recovery benefits its going to take some time. you will however notice much better pumps and muscle fullness fairly soon. you can easily add 10 pounds of lean body mass just by utilizing the above insulin protocol. 

hope that helps you out brother, let me know if you have any other questions

----------


## RoxRunner

> well despite what Palumbo recently said when he answered this same question just off the cuff without really thinking about it (he said it was a kooky idea to pin slin prior to cardio, even though coaches and gurus with higher levels of education and degrees them him promote this),, lower level of blood glucose induces lipolysis (if its for a short duration, long term low blood sugar may do the opposite by slowing down metabolism ).
> 
> think about it , if you got kids and you see them eat a shit ton of pop and candy or sweets, 30 mins later they are bouncing off the walls full of energy cause they have all that glucose/sugar to burn off for fuel.
> 
> glucose is energy, we store this energy in either the liver, muscle, fat, or the blood stream .. and the body utilizes it from these different areas dependent on the demand (e.g... weight training will burn up blood glucose AND muscle glucose/glycogen for energy).
> 
> If we are about to do steady state cardio, and we have a fairly decent amount of blood sugar floating around the blood stream to be used as energy, then your body will tap into that glucose for energy and then after that is used up it starts oxidizing fat for energy (it can actually somewhat use both at the same time). so if we go into a non glycogen dependent cardio session with lower blood sugar then we will burn more fat for energy . steady state LISS is a form of cardio that doesn't use glycogen , where as HIIT does . so if you did HIIT cardio then going into it with low blood sugar makes no difference, its just going to use muscle glycogen anyways. going into LISS cardio with lower blood sugar to start will help burn more fat


Great thread GH!

In the Ironman and Ultrarunning community, what you're describing sounds a lot like metabolic efficiency. I've been a lab rat for them in their testing to see what diet and supplements do to improve (or move the point of conversion). I didn't realize slin can induce it so much more quickly.

----------


## GearHeaded

> Great thread GH!
> 
> In the Ironman and Ultrarunning community, what you're describing sounds a lot like metabolic efficiency. I've been a lab rat for them in their testing to see what diet and supplements do to improve (or move the point of conversion). I didn't realize slin can induce it so much more quickly.


I'd imagine exogenous insulin use could be beneficial for the competitive endurance athletes. one to help with recovery, and another for carb loading and a super compensation effect prior to a competition

----------


## Quester

> just to clarify for the readers of this thread.. whats in bold is NOT classified as a negative side effect of metformin, its an actual mechanism of action by the drug to help lower blood sugar levels (ie., for most people with high blood sugars thats a benefit and provides health and anti aging benefits)
> 
> limiting glucose production in the liver and gluconeogeneis (converting protein to sugar) is beneficial to a majority of people and why metfromin is prescribed to pre diabetics and for anti aging
> 
> should be obvious why thats beneficial for bodybuilding as well


 I didn't mean to imply that it was a negative. Thanks for clarifying, GH

----------


## Wintermaul

> great questions brother!
> 
> ok, no HGH use is absolutely not necessary for insulin use in body building. however, I will say that insulin use is highly recommended for those using high dosages of HGH (or at least using Metformin). hope that makes sense.. the thing is insulin can be very anabolic all on its own and does not need HGH. however the use of HGH will likely cause you to run elevated blood sugars and the use of insulin will be beneficial (also on a side note, the use of DNP definitely warrants the use of insulin, you really should not be running DNP without insulin, as DNP causes your pancreas to stop producing endogenous insulin).
> the benefit to running HGH and insulin together is that you get a synergistic effect that ends up causing the liver to produce more IGF.
> 
> I have different clients on different protocols depending on their goals. I even have some clients using insulin for cutting (yes it has its purpose even in a cut). but for massing and adding more muscle and muscle fullness I generally go with the Milos style protocol. 10iu of insulin pre workout, then sipping on 50g of high molecular weight carbohydrates during the workout, that carb drink should also contain 10-20g of EAAs, and 10g of creatine.
> 
> Why do I recommend this?
> 
> ...


Thanks for answering. Why do you need 2 doses of insulin, before and after workout? Isnt it enough with 1dose of fast-acting insulin like 15min right before workout, and that dose would peak during workout and still be doing its job after the workout? I would want the insulin in my body only when necessary so i would rather take a larger dose before training than 2 smaller doses spread out before and after. 

The reason for the use of only 4-6 weeks is because i was told by a pro bodybuilder that a protocol was to use it after a typical diet when the body is very insulin-sensitive and on a bulk or off-season it takes 6 weeks before you lose that sensitivity. But you seem to have another word on that, could you please explain how long you would normally use it at a time and why?

Another thing you mentioned is the use of DNP and insulin. I would like to learn something about this as well. Ive testet the waters of DNP and was very lethargic even on 200mg a day. I imagine insulin maybe combats lethargic and would be nice to use on a "recomp"? What do you say about that?

----------


## GearHeaded

the reason for the 2 doses is simply because I'm not able to consume near enough Carbs in a single sitting during my workout then would be needed from a single large bolus dose of insulin . So I split it up over a couple hours to give my body time to be able to consume and assimilate the carbs.
for example, if I took 30iu of slin, and began my workout, I may need nearly 300g of carbs. well there is no way I'll be able to consume that, especially while working out intense and my stomach is nauseous to begin with.

so I'll take in a medium dose pre workout and only need about 50-100g of carbs to carry me through the workout. Then 1.5-2 hours later post workout I take another dose of insulin then because I'm in a position where I can consume a lot more carbs.
by spreading it out over a couple hours with two doses I can take in more calories and nutrients, then would be possible with a single dose.


insulin is similar to testosterone , in that its a naturally occurring hormone that is in the body all the time all year long. you can use exogenous test year round, and you can use exogenous insulin year round (your body is already accustomed to these hormones being present year round 24/7). the difference is with the test your natty production will shut down, where as taking insulin twice per day only on workout days is not going to shut down natty production of insulin.

your pro bodybuilder friend's theory sounds interesting and I'm sure he gets results from it. the thing is its when your somewhat insulin resistant that you end up needing more insulin (thats one reason why HGH users need insulin). this gives the beta cells of the pancreas a bit of a break and keeps them from 'burning out' sort of speak. so taking insulin after a diet and insulin sensitive is totally fine, but taking insulin right in the middle of a bulk when your slightly resistant is also beneficial . 
I personally take insulin year round, with some breaks here and there.


DNP shuts down the beta cells of the pancreas because of the cells inability to produce ATP. When your on DNP you become a type 1 diabetic. Very good reason to use insulin. Also there are other benefits to using insulin while on DNP, you get all the fat burning effects from the DNP but you get to retain all the anabolic effects of insulins ability to drive nutrients into muscle cells (without insulin, and your own insulin shut down while on DNP, you loose the ability to build muscle because without insulin your unable to 'unlock' cells to be able to take in nutrients).

I'll link a post I have about DNP and Insulin below

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...about-dnp.html

post #6

----------


## RoxRunner

> I'd imagine exogenous insulin use could be beneficial for the competitive endurance athletes. one to help with recovery, and another for carb loading and a super compensation effect prior to a competition


I think the recovery aspect would be huge. After a long day (5+ hours on the bike and/or a 2+ hour run) you're typically severely depleted. Getting the nutrients where it's needed much more quickly would help so much. And a lot of endurance athletes are not hungry after working that long. I certainly had that problem.

----------


## GearHeaded

> I think the recovery aspect would be huge. After a long day (5+ hours on the bike and/or a 2+ hour run) you're typically severely depleted. Getting the nutrients where it's needed much more quickly would help so much. And a lot of endurance athletes are not hungry after working that long. I certainly had that problem.


you would probably get a super compensation effect as well (i.e., ability to load in more glycogen then you would normally), thus not only enhancing recovery but aiding in your ability to perform the next session

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## Wintermaul

Thanks for your detailed response, youre like wikipedia on insulin -use. Im just gonna keep on asking
You said that you use 2 doses(before and after training) because of stomach is nauseous. But if stomach is not upset you would be running 1 single dose instead of pre and post? 
Im not gonna start off with that much insulin so i assume i would be OK with 100g carbs intra-/pre- workout, just gonna try 5-10 iu. 

NovoRapid starts working in 15min and peaks after 1-3hours and lasts 3-5 hours. This is much like humalog. So this means that insulin works in a total of 5 hours, so basically the carbs and nutrition can be of use this whole time, correct? 
If i take your protocol and do pre AND post and train for 1 hour. I would only extend the "window" of insulin by only about 1 hour, right? I can easily spread out the carbs, take like 50g before workout, 25g during, and 25-50g after workout rather than take ANOTHER dose of insulin. Would that matter? 
Im sorry im just trying to really understand the split-dose use. I understand your use of it. But im trying to figure out if i need another dose after training if i can consume enough carbs within the "insulin-window".

On the subcject of DNP and insulin again. Ive read the post you linked and ive read other posts on it too. And 1 stated that a high use(up to 50iu) of Lantus with a low-carb diet and very high-protein would yield amazing results because protein would be forced to glycogen and you would build muscle while burning fat, you ever tried something like this?
Would you use fast-acting insulin around workout like not on a diet or do something else while on DNP?

----------


## GearHeaded

to clarify some more on why I split the dosages up , its not simply because a hard workout may get me a bit nauseated and unable to get down a ton of carbs, its that I don't want to take the 20-30iu of Slin all at once. especially before a workout. if I took that much all at once I'd spend the whole workout trying to cram in a bunch of carbs, which I can't do. so I'll only take 10-15iu pre workout.. Then 30 mins or so after my workout, when I am home and in a position where I can consume not only a bunch more carbs, but a whey isolate shake and a whole food meal (I can't do this during the workout) I take the other 10-15iu dose

If your going to start with a low dose, which you should, then NO you don't need to split the dosages up like I do. your not going to require that much food and carbs with a low dose. take 5iu pre workout and have a intra workout drink with Carbs and EAA's in it.
if you eventually get to running higher dosages though, you may want to consider splitting the dosages up like I do.

yes you will be utilizing the carbs and nutrition the whole 5 hour time that the insulin is active. But your going to have the largest spike in insulin about 30 mins after you inject it. this is the time you'll be drinking your carb drink during your workout , and forcing all the glucose and amino acids into the muscle cells as you have all that blood flow going on


with DNP , running a long acting insulin like lantus is the way to go. if you only have access to something like Novalin r, then what you'll do is take small doses of it with your meals.
NO you would definitely not want to do the fast acting insulin pre workout protocol that I laid out above while on DNP. you don't want to force that much carbs and glucose in while on DNP because DNP makes it so that you cannot convert glucose into ATP for energy, and the carbs can only be burned up as body heat. you'll over heat. this is why DNP works to burn fat, it makes it so you can't use carbs for energy (only heat) and forces you to have to only use fat for energy. we only want enough insulin and glucose to keep our muscle cells able to stay anabolic and uptake amino acids. which when your on DNP and you don't take insulin you won't be able to do.
in this situation its a fine balance.

building muscle while burning fat on DNP is the exact formula I promote and reason I give the protocol I do in regards to using insulin with DNP.. without the insulin you can only burn fat while on DNP

----------


## Obs

Do you constantly monitor blood g levels?

I stopped and can feel a crash coming on pretty easy. I am stupid sensitive to insulin but am curious what effects getting to low for a bit can have on your body. 

I broke my rule today and shot 20iu with a big meal and crashed pretty hard. I have heard of ill effects on vision such as cataracts and am curious just how detremental low bg swings can be.

----------


## GearHeaded

no I don't monitor them constantly . I've got a pretty good feel for things and have set dosages and set protocols. I will often times check my sugar before I go to dose my insulin pre-workout to help me determine my dose. If I'm at say 115 an hour after my pre workout meal, then I'll go ahead and pin 15iu.
If for some reason I'm at say 90, then I'll only pin 10iu. of course I could always just pin the 15iu and simply up the carbs if my blood sugar was low, but I like to take in the exact same amount of carbs (one and a half scoop of Amleopectin) with every workout, just don't want to "have to" have to take in more.

I don't ever end up going hypo or even getting close. I think because of the HGH multiple times a day on top of the GH releasers I take my blood sugars generally stay fairly high. fasted blood sugar is about 90. if I take a few days off the HGH and peptides my fasted will drop down to high 70s.

I know constantly elevated blood sugars can have some pretty bad health effects. I've never looked into the effects of having too many low blood sugar episodes though.

try consuming orange juice a few times per day or upping your fruit/fructose intake. you'll get more liver glycogen storage and its the liver that will trickle glucose into the blood stream when blood sugar levels drop (fructose is easily converted into liver glycogen stores)

----------


## Wintermaul

Do you feel there is a difference in types of carbs you take?
Difference between maltodextrin and dextrose for example, is one better than the other or is fast carbs just fast carbs wether it is from rice cakes or dextrose?
You said earlier that intraworkoutshake should have EAA and BCAA and glutamine and creatine in it as well as carbs. In my country there isnt much product containing complete EAA but a bunch product got BCAA and glutamine. How essentials are these EAA intra? Isnt BCAA enough for full benefit?

----------


## GearHeaded

> Do you feel there is a difference in types of carbs you take?
> Difference between maltodextrin and dextrose for example, is one better than the other or is fast carbs just fast carbs wether it is from rice cakes or dextrose?
> You said earlier that intraworkoutshake should have EAA and BCAA and glutamine and creatine in it as well as carbs. In my country there isnt much product containing complete EAA but a bunch product got BCAA and glutamine. How essentials are these EAA intra? Isnt BCAA enough for full benefit?


i don't really experiment with different Carb sources with insulin use. I have always used a high molecular weight carb source, like amleopectin, that is super fast absorbing, and just stuck with it. you want fast acting carbs imo with fast acting slin.

BCAAs are not sufficient alone. they only turn on muscle protein syynthesis but they do not provide the raw material for protein synthesis to actually happen.

heres an analogy to help explain what i mean--
you have a giant high tech factory to make widgets, BCAAs turn on all the lights and the machines in this factory, but unless you have the raw material itself to make the Widgets, BCAAs will do nothing for you. EAAs on the other hand provide all the raw material and turn everything on.

having said that , you can get EAAs from the food you eat. eat plenty of foods with a full spectrum of protein like steak. and you should have sufficicent flow of EAA in your blood stream . which when there is glucose and insulin in the blood will then be used to build muscle.

----------


## charger69

> i don't really experiment with different Carb sources with insulin use. I have always used a high molecular weight carb source, like amleopectin, that is super fast absorbing, and just stuck with it. you want fast acting carbs imo with fast acting slin.
> 
> BCAAs are not sufficient alone. they only turn on muscle protein syynthesis but they do not provide the raw material for protein synthesis to actually happen.
> 
> heres an analogy to help explain what i mean--
> you have a giant high tech factory to make widgets, BCAAs turn on all the lights and the machines in this factory, but unless you have the raw material itself to make the Widgets, BCAAs will do nothing for you. EAAs on the other hand provide all the raw material and turn everything on.
> 
> having said that , you can get EAAs from the food you eat. eat plenty of foods with a full spectrum of protein like steak. and you should have sufficicent flow of EAA in your blood stream . which when there is glucose and insulin in the blood will then be used to build muscle.


You do not use supplement EAAs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## charger69

I have a show in a week. Then I have 9-10 weeks before another one. I originally had not planned on slin but Im thinking of a NPP/ slin for 5 weeks. 
What is your opinion?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## GearHeaded

> You do not use supplement EAA’s?


Yes i personally use 10g of EAA in my intra workout drink.. the poster i responded to said he may have a hard time finding EAA where he lives, so thats why i suggested look to food. but if you are able to get it , then i say its worth using.

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## GearHeaded

> I have a show in a week. Then I have 9-10 weeks before another one. I originally had not planned on slin but I’m thinking of a NPP/ slin for 5 weeks. 
> What is your opinion?


you may consider Slin post contest. your going to be super insulin sensitive post contest I'm sure and will be in a position to get a good rebound and put on some muscle.

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## Couchlockd

> Do you constantly monitor blood g levels?
> 
> I stopped and can feel a crash coming on pretty easy. I am stupid sensitive to insulin but am curious what effects getting to low for a bit can have on your body. 
> 
> I broke my rule today and shot 20iu with a big meal and crashed pretty hard. I have heard of ill effects on vision such as cataracts and am curious just how detremental low bg swings can be.


lows are bad on eyes

----------


## Couchlockd

also liking the metformin after 8 days, one thing for sure, its keeping me regular.

notice no negatives on 500mg daily so far

but I think,I'm gaining weight on it.

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## Wintermaul

> i don't really experiment with different Carb sources with insulin use. I have always used a high molecular weight carb source, like amleopectin, that is super fast absorbing, and just stuck with it. you want fast acting carbs imo with fast acting slin.
> 
> BCAAs are not sufficient alone. they only turn on muscle protein syynthesis but they do not provide the raw material for protein synthesis to actually happen.
> 
> heres an analogy to help explain what i mean--
> you have a giant high tech factory to make widgets, BCAAs turn on all the lights and the machines in this factory, but unless you have the raw material itself to make the Widgets, BCAAs will do nothing for you. EAAs on the other hand provide all the raw material and turn everything on.
> 
> having said that , you can get EAAs from the food you eat. eat plenty of foods with a full spectrum of protein like steak. and you should have sufficicent flow of EAA in your blood stream . which when there is glucose and insulin in the blood will then be used to build muscle.


Thanks again, this clears up a bit. Im gonna get hold of some EAA, it just takes some more time to get it, or maybe i need to make my own shake with this and that but as you explained with the factory-analogy it seems worth it. 

Regarding training, do you think its more useful to go some kind of HIT-style to empty the glycogen in muscles and with insulin build more efficient as to do powerlifting-style(many sets, high volume, low intensity)? Or doesnt training matter that much on insulin? I see Milos like giant-set and really pushes his clients, so im assuming his approach is due his insulin-protocol.

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## GearHeaded

> Thanks again, this clears up a bit. Im gonna get hold of some EAA, it just takes some more time to get it, or maybe i need to make my own shake with this and that but as you explained with the factory-analogy it seems worth it. 
> 
> Regarding training, do you think its more useful to go some kind of HIT-style to empty the glycogen in muscles and with insulin build more efficient as to do powerlifting-style(many sets, high volume, low intensity)? Or doesnt training matter that much on insulin? I see Milos like giant-set and really pushes his clients, so im assuming his approach is due his insulin-protocol.


Milos approach is high volume to promote a lot of blood flow. the more blood you can get into the muscle the more you can push whats in the blood (insulin , glucose, amino acids, creatine, water and nutrients) into the muscle.
thats his method and theory. so neither HIT training nor a power lifting style of training would be as good as a high volume high metabolite style of training. 

having said that, I alter my training methods often with different meso cycles , or phases, that I'm running. so sometimes i may be in a high intensity low volume phase, sometimes a high frequency phase, or a strength phase.
but , no matter what phase i'm in with training , this does not alter my insulin protocols

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## mitchellsandbur

Looking for clarification on something...
If I am running 4IUs/day via Pfizer genotropin pen do I need to run insulin with it? Or am I safe just avoiding eating 1hr before & after injections?

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## JKW

Very nice work by GH and everyone who replied. Ive read the posts many times and I would like to try insulin . I am on my 3rd week on HGH 1.5iu moving to 2iu 5 days a week. I am 58 and use to be a competitor in the 80-90s. I am on more of a HRT lifestyle then bodybuilding. I want to maximize taking GH since it is so expensive by utilizing the benefits of insulin obviously in a smaller dose than bodybuilding. My question is am I thinking clearly on the HRT side or is insulin more for the bodybuilding side? I would love some help either through this thread or PM if someone will guide me. Thanks!!

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## Windex

> Very nice work by GH and everyone who replied. Ive read the posts many times and I would like to try insulin. I am on my 3rd week on HGH 1.5iu moving to 2iu 5 days a week. I am 58 and use to be a competitor in the 80-90s. I am on more of a HRT lifestyle then bodybuilding. I want to maximize taking GH since it is so expensive by utilizing the benefits of insulin obviously in a smaller dose than bodybuilding. My question is am I thinking clearly on the HRT side or is insulin more for the bodybuilding side? I would love some help either through this thread or PM if someone will guide me. Thanks!!


You don't need insulin to maximize the HgH - it's a double standard. Insulin without HGh is poor but HGH without insulin is perfectly acceptable. Also take all the posts from Gearheaded and toss them out the window. He was banned from the forum because of the unsafe and reckless information he gave to people.

A low dose of slin is going to give little results for a lot of risk. Outside of treating diabetics the only purpose to insulin is going to be for top end hyper competitive bodybuilding.

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## JKW

Wow thank you sir! I didn't know he had been banned. I wonder why this thread is still up then if it is bad advice? Almost made me want to try insulin . Glad you cleared that up thanks!

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## carbman

Helou! two questions for somebody who knows  :Smilie: 
1) It's clear that hgh and insulin works synergistic manner. But what about mk-677 and insulin? Does these two work synergistic or not? Is it good way to use them together or separately?
2) Do I have to start low insulin dosage. Lets say I'm prepared to use 10iu pre and 10iu postworkout so do i have to start with 5iu and 5 iu or can I right away jump to 10iu and 10 iu?
Thanks  :Smilie:

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## JKW

MK677 should help the body release GH if I remember right so I would think it would help. Also it seems slin helps even if you are not on GH but on AAS. I would take the advice of checking your glucose levels a couple weeks prior and Start with a small dose. In the field I am in I see people go hypoglycemic and there is nothing you can do if it gets to low. Hope someone finds you and calls Ems.

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## charger69

> Helou! two questions for somebody who knows 
> 1) It's clear that hgh and insulin works synergistic manner. But what about mk-677 and insulin? Does these two work synergistic or not? Is it good way to use them together or separately?
> 2) Do I have to start low insulin dosage. Lets say I'm prepared to use 10iu pre and 10iu postworkout so do i have to start with 5iu and 5 iu or can I right away jump to 10iu and 10 iu?
> Thanks


No- do not jump to 10 before and after. You need to see how you and your diet react first. Before you even think about using slin, buy a device to monitor glucose levels. This will be used to dial it in. Buy glucose tablets for emergencies. 
Remember you can die from this and as long as you respect it, you will be fine. Starting out at 10 before and after is not respecting it. 
I would start out just after a workout. Once you get this dialed in then start slowly before. You will have a couple of peaks by taking it before and after. 
Do NOT start out taking it before. Workout. You could go hypo and not know it since you will already be sweating. Do you have the fast acting or the medium acting slin? This also makes a difference. 




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## Obs

As charger said

5 ius cant put you in a coma
10 can
15 can easily
20 is just stupid. 

Once you advance do 5 before and five after.

High doses will just make you feel like crap.

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## charger69

> As charger said
> 
> 5 ius cant put you in a coma
> 10 can
> 15 can easily
> 20 is just stupid. 
> 
> Once you advance do 5 before and five after.
> 
> High doses will just make you feel like crap.


Wow, for only having a couple of cycles under your belt, you have the slin spot on. I feel like I know you from somewhere else. LOL


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## Obs

> Wow, for only having a couple of cycles under your belt, you have the slin spot on. I feel like I know you from somewhere else. LOL
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Readers digest

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## GearHeaded

> You don't need insulin to maximize the HgH - it's a double standard. Insulin without HGh is poor but HGH without insulin is perfectly acceptable. Also take all the posts from Gearheaded and toss them out the window. He was banned from the forum because of the unsafe and reckless information he gave to people.
> 
> A low dose of slin is going to give little results for a lot of risk. Outside of treating diabetics the only purpose to insulin is going to be for top end hyper competitive bodybuilding.





> Wow thank you sir! I didn't know he had been banned. I wonder why this thread is still up then if it is bad advice? Almost made me want to try insulin . Glad you cleared that up thanks!


none of the above is true.. I was not banned and I surely was not banned for giving out bad advice (tons of respectable members here PM'd me daily for advice). my account was hacked by someone that had a vendetta against me .
thats in the past .

I'm happy to continue helping people with proper and safe insulin use for bodybuilding in this thread .

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## GearHeaded

> Very nice work by GH and everyone who replied. I’ve read the posts many times and I would like to try insulin. I am on my 3rd week on HGH 1.5iu moving to 2iu 5 days a week. I am 58 and use to be a competitor in the 80-90’s. I am on more of a HRT lifestyle then bodybuilding. I want to maximize taking GH since it is so expensive by utilizing the benefits of insulin obviously in a smaller dose than bodybuilding. My question is am I thinking clearly on the HRT side or is insulin more for the bodybuilding side? I would love some help either through this thread or PM if someone will guide me. Thanks!!


JKW ,, just to touch on your post . are you aware that insulin use is 'popular' in anti aging clinics ? YES , insulin is an anti aging drug (if used correctly) . so you being curious about using it , with your HRT and your HGH use at the age of 56 is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE , and yes can be optimized with all three together providing many benefits (and not just for bodybuilding) .
so I say yes, adding an insulin protocol is something you can consider

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## GearHeaded

> You don't need insulin to maximize the HgH.


insulin can mitigate and limit a lot of the negative side effects of HGH use and prevent the long term damage that HGH can cause. in fact, without insulin some people would not even be able to safely utilize HGH (I'm speaking bodybuilding dosages here)

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## guitarzan

Good to see you back gh!

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## guitarzan

I am self diagnosed with reactive hypoglycemia, my body makes too much insulin when I eat, causing my blood sugar to drop. Its easily controlled with diet, especially by cutting out refined carbs. My sugar has dropped so low, I've measured it at 42, that I've come close to blackening out. Though my have it under control, now that diet is on tract, I'm assuming slin would be a bad idea for me

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## Obs

> insulin can mitigate and limit a lot of the negative side effects of HGH use and prevent the long term damage that HGH can cause. in fact, without insulin some people would not even be able to safely utilize HGH (I'm speaking bodybuilding dosages here)


Indeed glad to see you again sir.

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## Obs

> none of the above is true.. I was not banned and I surely was not banned for giving out bad advice (tons of respectable members here PM'd me daily for advice). my account was hacked by someone that had a vendetta against me .
> thats in the past .
> 
> I'm happy to continue helping people with proper and safe insulin use for bodybuilding in this thread .


We are moving forward and no one will be bothering GH.
Things went on out of public eye that have been fixed, corrected, and we are all glad GH has returned after what happened. GH has some terrific advice and he has a very outside the box approach that will work better for some of us. 

We welcome new odeas and approaches. 
No one wants to be on a one directional dry assed board. We want it wet and we want it to go both ways like guitarzan, cape, and couchlockd

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## GearHeaded

> I am self diagnosed with reactive hypoglycemia, my body makes too much insulin when I eat, causing my blood sugar to drop. Its easily controlled with diet, especially by cutting out refined carbs. My sugar has dropped so low, I've measured it at 42, that I've come close to blackening out. Though my have it under control, now that diet is on tract, I'm assuming slin would be a bad idea for me


interesting. maybe try running a GHRP or GH secretagogue like MK-677 (or perhaps both). This may balance out your hypoglycemia. The pulsing of GH will cause a release of sugar stored from cells thus keeping your blood sugar elevated (this is one of many ways GH works as a growth factor hormone)
fyi - my normal blood sugar is 80 , if I'm on MK-677 my new normal becomes 100. (yes there is some insulin resistance involved with this).

basically the GH release 'may' counter act your over production of insulin to a degree, or a least provide a higher level of blood sugar to keep your from going hypo so easily. 

as for taking exogenous insulin . for you, timing would be critical . if you take in exogenous insulin, and that insulin gets into the blood stream and then your carbs are consumed and dealt with, then your body will not produce a huge spike of its own insulin because of the exogenous insulin. however, if your timing is off you could have a spike of natty insulin on top of your exogenous insulin you took and thus have more insulin then is needed for the amount of carbs consumed .. you'd have to have liquid carbs on hand all the time. 


have you ever used intra workout nutrition, like a carb drink during your workout? what happens when you do ? do you go hypo ?

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## kelkel

Good to see you GH.

----------


## Capebuffalo

> We are moving forward and no one will be bothering GH.
> Things went on out of public eye that have been fixed, corrected, and we are all glad GH has returned after what happened. GH has some terrific advice and he has a very outside the box approach that will work better for some of us. 
> 
> We welcome new odeas and approaches. 
> No one wants to be on a one directional dry assed board. We want it wet and we want it to go both ways like guitarzan, cape, and couchlockd


This.

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## charger69

Glad to see you back GH!

What is your typical cycle on slin? I was taking it while cycling. I have heard some take it 4 weeks on/ 4 weeks off, some as a bridge between cycles, and some essentially all the time. 

I will refresh your memory- Im 51 and actively compete In BB. I try to keep up with the others competing however I also try to keep healthy due to my age. I know it sounds like a contradiction. LOL


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## guitarzan

> interesting. maybe try running a GHRP or GH secretagogue like MK-677 (or perhaps both). This may balance out your hypoglycemia. The pulsing of GH will cause a release of sugar stored from cells thus keeping your blood sugar elevated (this is one of many ways GH works as a growth factor hormone)
> fyi - my normal blood sugar is 80 , if I'm on MK-677 my new normal becomes 100. (yes there is some insulin resistance involved with this).
> 
> basically the GH release 'may' counter act your over production of insulin to a degree, or a least provide a higher level of blood sugar to keep your from going hypo so easily. 
> 
> as for taking exogenous insulin . for you, timing would be critical . if you take in exogenous insulin, and that insulin gets into the blood stream and then your carbs are consumed and dealt with, then your body will not produce a huge spike of its own insulin because of the exogenous insulin. however, if your timing is off you could have a spike of natty insulin on top of your exogenous insulin you took and thus have more insulin then is needed for the amount of carbs consumed .. you'd have to have liquid carbs on hand all the time. 
> 
> 
> have you ever used intra workout nutrition, like a carb drink during your workout? what happens when you do ? do you go hypo ?


Hmmm, that's interesting. Haven't tried a carb drink, other than Gatorade. I usually take in 40-60 grams of carbs before my morning workout, usually from foods like brown rice. I did notice one time that while on t3 I dont have issues, even if I'm eating bad

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## charger69

> Hmmm, that's interesting. Haven't tried a carb drink, other than Gatorade. I usually take in 40-60 grams of carbs before my morning workout, usually from foods like brown rice. I did notice one time that while on t3 I dont have issues, even if I'm eating bad


Tarzan- brown rice has a low GI (glycemic index), white rice has a high GI. It is better you to use white rice with slin. 
I use glycofuse however there are many types of drinks. 


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## guitarzan

> Tarzan- brown rice has a low GI (glycemic index), white rice has a high GI. It is better you to use white rice with slin. 
> I use glycofuse however there are many types of drinks. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not using slin, so better to use brown rice than white, since I'm cutting? My target is 2500 cal, at 40/40/20, P/c/f. I try to get the bulk of my carbs pre and post workout, breakfast and lunch

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## GearHeaded

> Not using slin, so better to use brown rice than white, since I'm cutting? My target is 2500 cal, at 40/40/20, P/c/f. I try to get the bulk of my carbs pre and post workout, breakfast and lunch


for cutting, if its your first meal of the day then I would go no carbs or go with low glycemic carbs (like your doing with the brown rice) . however, post workout then I would go with the high glycemic fast acting carbs like white rice . what your doing with getting most your carbs pre and post workout is SPOT On, imo

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## Capebuffalo

> for cutting, if its your first meal of the day then I would go no carbs or go with low glycemic carbs (like your doing with the brown rice) . however, post workout then I would go with the high glycemic fast acting carbs like white rice . what your doing with getting most your carbs pre and post workout is SPOT On, imo


That makes sense.

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## GearHeaded

> Glad to see you back GH!
> 
> What is your typical “cycle” on slin? I was taking it while cycling. I have heard some take it 4 weeks on/ 4 weeks off, some as a bridge between cycles, and some essentially all the time. 
> 
> I will refresh your memory- I’m 51 and actively compete In BB. I try to keep up with the others competing however I also try to keep healthy due to my age. I know it sounds like a contradiction. LOL


thanks Charger,, glad to see your still going after it and competing 

couple of points to address your question
- main reason to be on an AAS cycle when starting an insulin protocol .. most steroids greatly increase our bodies ability to positively partition nutrients, drive more glycogen, water, amino acids, nutrients, etc.. into the muscle cells. This happens at a much greater rate then what could happen naturally . BUT even so, we still need the "KEY" which opens the cells and drives all these nutrients into the muscle. that Key is insulin.
So what better time to use insulin then when your body is on AAS and has the ability to drive way more nutrients into the cells then could happen normally.

- Insulin use while not on AAS. Plenty of other ways to use insulin besides just getting huge. it can be used apart from AAS use during a dieting phase as an 'anti catabolic' , it can be used prior to cardio to drive down blood sugar and put the body in more lipolytic dependent state, it can be used to mitigate negative side effects of HGH use , heck it can be used just to control blood sugar and as an 'anti aging' drug .

- as for 'cycling' insulin. thats really going to depend on the person and their goals and what they are using the insulin for.. lets say a guy is using insulin pre and post workout but only on his leg training days to help bring up his lagging legs and help boost recovery of that body part. being he is only using slin 1-2 x per week then he can be on it indefinitely , no need to cycle off.. if your using slin for a bulking cycle and thus using it daily, thats fine, as a bulking cycle only lasts so long and when your bulk is over you come off the slin. you could do the 4 weeks on 4 weeks off .. lots of options.

keep in mind that slin does NOT permanately shut down your own natty production of insulin (its not like test). In fact exogenous insulin use can help the body regenerate the beta cells of the pancreas and make production of natty insulin more efficient . lets say your fasted blood sugars are running high and your pancreas is not keeping up with the demands of insulin needed , well if you take exogenous insulin and give your pancreas a rest so that those beta cells can regenerate/rest then when you come off the insulin your pancreas is working just fine and keeping up just fine because you gave it a break it needed by using exogenous insulin. 


- as for what typical "cycle" to run while using insulin . thats all really dependent on what your use of the insulin is going to be for along with your goal for the cycle . if your off season putting on size, then your typical test, deca , dbol , with a pre and post workout insulin protocol will yield plenty of size gains.. if you prepping for a show and your 5 or so weeks out, depleted and flat, then adding in some insulin with your mast, primo, var, at different stages to help 'fill out' on your high carb days or also to help stay anti catabolic while dieting and help with recovery is also an option. or you can use micro doses of insulin for morning fasted cardio along with HGH, caffeine, Var, Yohimbe, to help shed body fat.

umm, and of course the most controversial. Insulin as a 'safety net' and 'synergistic' to be used with DNP .. IF your crazy enough to use DNP, then you should most definitely be using insulin along with it

lots of options for slin use besides just the typical 'get huge' protocols that insulin is mainly known for

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## charger69

> thanks Charger,, glad to see your still going after it and competing 
> 
> couple of points to address your question
> - main reason to be on an AAS cycle when starting an insulin protocol .. most steroids greatly increase our bodies ability to positively partition nutrients, drive more glycogen, water, amino acids, nutrients, etc.. into the muscle cells. This happens at a much greater rate then what could happen naturally . BUT even so, we still need the "KEY" which opens the cells and drives all these nutrients into the muscle. that Key is insulin.
> So what better time to use insulin then when your body is on AAS and has the ability to drive way more nutrients into the cells then could happen normally.
> 
> - Insulin use while not on AAS. Plenty of other ways to use insulin besides just getting huge. it can be used apart from AAS use during a dieting phase as an 'anti catabolic' , it can be used prior to cardio to drive down blood sugar and put the body in more lipolytic dependent state, it can be used to mitigate negative side effects of HGH use , heck it can be used just to control blood sugar and as an 'anti aging' drug .
> 
> - as for 'cycling' insulin. thats really going to depend on the person and their goals and what they are using the insulin for.. lets say a guy is using insulin pre and post workout but only on his leg training days to help bring up his lagging legs and help boost recovery of that body part. being he is only using slin 1-2 x per week then he can be on it indefinitely , no need to cycle off.. if your using slin for a bulking cycle and thus using it daily, thats fine, as a bulking cycle only lasts so long and when your bulk is over you come off the slin. you could do the 4 weeks on 4 weeks off .. lots of options.
> ...


As always, a very detailed response that even I can understand! LOL
I am going back to the way I was using it.

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## kelkel

How much of a size difference between a cycle with and without slin imho? If you can guestimate that.
Do you see any issues with older guys using moderate doses of it. 
Asking for a friend.......ahem....cough....

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## GearHeaded

> How much of a size difference between a cycle with and without slin imho? If you can guestimate that.
> Do you see any issues with older guys using moderate doses of it. 
> Asking for a friend.......ahem....cough....


if you go with whatever your 'go to' cycle has been over the years for putting on muscle, and you simply add a solid insulin protocol on top of that cycle, you'll likely put on an 10 additional pounds then you would have otherwise by the end of the cycle.
and for guys that have a lot of cycles and experience under their belt, 10 pounds is a damn lot to put on in 12 weeks.

as for age. I think insulin use can be a huge benefit for older guys. for one, older guys are likely to be more responsible and really take their time to dial in a proper insulin protocol. 

another, RECOVERY. as you get older recovery becomes more difficult (as does sleep). Insulin use is going to help speed up and facilitate recovery.

and another reason, if your older and you been in the game of bodybuilding for quite some time then you've probably been pounding the food for years, so your pancreas could probably actually benefit from a break and using exogenous insulin will help give it the break it needs and help restore beta cell productivity. 

and another reason, as you age it becomes more difficult for your body to partition nutrients towards muscle building, store glycogen, and assimilate amino acids (your body loses muscle due to not being able to utilize the protein your taking in). Insulin can help optimize nutrient partitioning and driving more nutrients, glucose and amino acids into muscle cells.

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## Obs

> if you go with whatever your 'go to' cycle has been over the years for putting on muscle, and you simply add a solid insulin protocol on top of that cycle, you'll likely put on an 10 additional pounds then you would have otherwise by the end of the cycle.
> and for guys that have a lot of cycles and experience under their belt, 10 pounds is a damn lot to put on in 12 weeks.
> 
> as for age. I think insulin use can be a huge benefit for older guys. for one, older guys are likely to be more responsible and really take their time to dial in a proper insulin protocol. 
> 
> another, RECOVERY. as you get older recovery becomes more difficult (as does sleep). Insulin use is going to help speed up and facilitate recovery.
> 
> and another reason, if your older and you been in the game of bodybuilding for quite some time then you've probably been pounding the food for years, so your pancreas could probably actually benefit from a break and using exogenous insulin will help give it the break it needs and help restore beta cell productivity. 
> 
> and another reason, as you age it becomes more difficult for your body to partition nutrients towards muscle building, store glycogen, and assimilate amino acids (your body loses muscle due to not being able to utilize the protein your taking in). Insulin can help optimize nutrient partitioning and driving more nutrients, glucose and amino acids into muscle cells.


I am proof of this. 

I like it best for recharging after a crap week of poor diet and too much work.

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## kelkel

> if you go with whatever your 'go to' cycle has been over the years for putting on muscle, and you simply add a solid insulin protocol on top of that cycle, you'll likely put on an 10 additional pounds then you would have otherwise by the end of the cycle.
> and for guys that have a lot of cycles and experience under their belt, 10 pounds is a damn lot to put on in 12 weeks.
> 
> as for age. I think insulin use can be a huge benefit for older guys. for one, older guys are likely to be more responsible and really take their time to dial in a proper insulin protocol. 
> 
> another, RECOVERY. as you get older recovery becomes more difficult (as does sleep). Insulin use is going to help speed up and facilitate recovery.
> 
> and another reason, if your older and you been in the game of bodybuilding for quite some time then you've probably been pounding the food for years, so your pancreas could probably actually benefit from a break and using exogenous insulin will help give it the break it needs and help restore beta cell productivity. 
> 
> and another reason, as you age it becomes more difficult for your body to partition nutrients towards muscle building, store glycogen, and assimilate amino acids (your body loses muscle due to not being able to utilize the protein your taking in). Insulin can help optimize nutrient partitioning and driving more nutrients, glucose and amino acids into muscle cells.



Appreciate that. I've never considered trying it before but it would be nice to get some renewed growth. 
Need to pick your brain more about this when the time comes.

Thank you!

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## charger69

> Appreciate that. I've never considered trying it before but it would be nice to get some renewed growth. 
> Need to pick your brain more about this when the time comes.
> 
> Thank you!


I was determined that I never would touch the stuff based on what people said. GH explained it in detail and I started . It produces results, you just need to be careful with your diet.
You need to respect it, not be afraid of it. 
You as a bodybuilder will have no issues because you understand this. 


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## charger69

Besides Kelkel, I am catching up to you. LOL
Not really, but it may motivate you!


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## Capebuffalo

> Besides Kelkel, I am catching up to you. LOL
> Not really, but it may motivate you!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Age wise anyway.

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## kelkel

> I was determined that I never would touch the stuff based on what people said. GH explained it in detail and I started . It produces results, you just need to be careful with your diet.
> You need to respect it, not be afraid of it. 
> You as a bodybuilder will have no issues because you understand this. 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep. May have to try it in a month or so...




> Besides Kelkel, I am catching up to you. LOL
> Not really, but it may motivate you!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll use anything and everything for motivation. Training alone in my basement is not always easy or fun....




> Age wise anyway.


Easy big fella. Probation could be extended....

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## GearHeaded

> I am proof of this. 
> 
> I like it best for recharging after a crap week of poor diet and too much work.


yep good thinking . I know of guys who were using high dose insulin protocols, carb loading, combined with test suspension for 2-3 days straight to boost recovery, lower cortisol, and kick start the weeks training regiment.

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## Capebuffalo

Just ordered Novilin N. 

I have used before. I’ll be starting with 3 ius pre and post workout. Ramp up to 10 ius. I was there with no problems last run. 

Pulling out the stops to win this comp.

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## Kay kay

Heres my experience, take it for what its worth.

Ive used insulin WITHOUT hgh, always on cycle, while bulking and cutting. I use dosages up around 20iu per shot, and find I respond better to high dosages. 

I also find that while using large amounts of insulin, I actually am able to stay leaner while consuming a diet of around extremely high carbs with a large surplus and high amount of simple carbs. I know this is against the common conclusion but this is my repeated experience over the last few years.
I generally use it 3x per day, first meal, and pre/post workout.
I have also used rapid insulin with every meal daily 7-8x daily for months on end with great but diminishing results, 

I use rapid acting insulin for all meals except pre workout, I prefer the 2-4 hour active window pre for obvious reasons.

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## GearHeaded

> Here’s my experience, take it for what it’s worth.
> 
> I’ve used insulin WITHOUT hgh, always on cycle, while bulking and cutting. I use dosages up around 20iu per shot, and find I respond better to high dosages. 
> 
> I also find that while using large amounts of insulin, I actually am able to stay leaner while consuming a diet of around extremely high carbs with a large surplus and high amount of simple carbs. I know this is against the common conclusion but this is my repeated experience over the last few years.
> I generally use it 3x per day, first meal, and pre/post workout.
> I have also used rapid insulin with every meal daily 7-8x daily for months on end with great but diminishing results, 
> 
> I use rapid acting insulin for all meals except pre workout, I prefer the 2-4 hour active window pre for obvious reasons.


the idea that insulin makes you fat is completely blown out of proportion and only true for very few select people.. for the most part insulin use is going to get you jacked and lean (umm , yeah thats why 260 pound 5% body fat IFBB pros use insulin . if it made them fat they wouldn't be using it to the high degree that they do).

Kay, your a perfect example. *Insulin use, especially at higher dosages, is going to ramp up the conversion of T4 into T3 in the liver*. This (along with the insulin itself) is *going to speed up your metabolism and greatly increase your feed effeciency*, protein absorption, nutrient partitioning, etc.. so your better able to utilize and absorb your nutrition and your metabolism is zipping along at a consistent pace. this is going to help you put on full and round muscle while also staying lean and not spilling over.

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## Kay kay

Ahhh I did not know about insulin ’s affect on t4 to t3 conversion! Thank you so much that makes perfect sense! It always blew my mind how I could ramp my carbs upwards of 700g a day with low fats and still stay lean.

I can’t wait until I can afford a solid high dose with slin, it must be truly amazing with the synergy considering it’s effectiveness solo.

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## Kay kay

Just wanted to add guys that my blood sugar upon waking is literally the same as it was before ever doing slin. Just thought Id throw that out there in case anyone still thinks slin use with rapid acting slin will make you a diabetic.

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## Oneup81

Lantus and Humalog question. Definitely would appreciate GH's feedback as I've read a lot of your post when it comes to insulin , igf, and HGH, and like your way of thinking. 

I probably should change the title because you've already given me what you think is the best Protocol is for these 2 when ran together, and I appreciate that.

My Lantus should be here Monday or Tuesday which is what I was start my cycle of 400 mg test E EW also 200mg of TP E2D for the first two to three weeks or whatever you would suggest? I was also going to add around three to 400 mg of NPP E3D, and again or what you would suggest? I don't know if it matters but take into consideration I am an ectomorph if that is the thinnest body type I believe I said that right. What's metabolism running about a thousand miles an hour in my 12 or 13 years of training have never been able to get above 8% body fat which I guess it's in the bad thing considering my diet is pretty clean, but I want to see wouldn't mind putting on a little size if that meant add on a few percent body fat. 

My main question is my blood glucose levels in the morning. That is the most important and best time to check them before starting insulin correct? 

I know this isn't the right, and same people won't like it but the truth is I've never used it a blood glucose meter in the past, and I've ran insulin 4 or 5 times now but always just Humalog or novolog @ 10-12 IU'S pre-workout or 6IU's pre-workout and 6IU's post workout, but never long-acting such as Lantus. I've also never had a problem with my blood sugar levels as far as how I've felt, and that's probably because I consume a minimum 10 grams of carbs both complex and fast-acting Which is my pre workout meal. It's also when I first take my shot, and I'm drinking my intra workout Shake which will consist of 106 grams of carbs (karbolyn mixed with the Gatorade, 10 grams of glutamine and 10 grams of creatine), and another 60 to 80 grams of carbs in my pwo meal which is probably about 4 hours after the shot.

I apologize for all the questions, but it can't hurt to ask. Not when I find guys as knowledgeable as you guys. Which is rare.

Is the morning on an empty stomach the best time to check my blood sugar levels?

Also if it's Humulin R would the best time to check them again be when it's peaking? Which without looking I believe is 90 minutes after the shot.

Should I add anything to my inter workout drink such as aminos or anything else you can think of that might help? 

Anything else I left out that you guys want to contribute to I'm always willing to learn and that's one thing I love about the sport. You're never done learning.

Also i almost forgot I am thinking about, and will probably add in some lr3 at around 40 to 50 MCG bilaterally in the muscles im training that day, and will be training 4 days a week.

Whoever comments back thank you in advance because as I said you're never done learning in this sport.




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## PrimoCyp25

Insulin is a one powerful puppy if you take your time, test your blood sugar levels and understand it's mechanism it sure has it's advantages.

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## Cupid

> the idea that insulin makes you fat is completely blown out of proportion and only true for very few select people.. for the most part insulin use is going to get you jacked and lean (umm , yeah thats why 260 pound 5% body fat IFBB pros use insulin . if it made them fat they wouldn't be using it to the high degree that they do).


Ok, so from reading this thread I am beginning to wrap my head around the many ways insulin can be utilized.
The lingering question is then directly in regards to what I quoted.
What are the basic points to make sure fat accumulation is mitigated with insulin use.
Is it simply to not eat dietary fats around the slin use? Is the idea that eating fats while using insulin will cause the fat to get stored even true? At all?

For example, right now my main meal post insulin use is brown/white rice with disgusting turkey breast because it is a 0 fat meat. If I were to switch to say chicken breast or pork loin which have 3g of fat per serving, will that be less advantageous to using turkey breast, tuna, or egg whites which have no fat? Or am I completely a victim of bullshit here lol?

I don't know if I am wording my question correctly. I am just trying to figure out the fullproof limits of what to NOT do while on insulin in order to not get fat.....as there are so many different things you can use it for and I intend on doing them all over the course of the years with various goals.

Furthermore, would you say insulin has any added advantages when it comes to powerlifting other than recovery? Any protocols which are suited for that purpose?

Thank you for being such an amazing resource GH.

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## JaneDoe

The best

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## GearHeaded

> Ok, so from reading this thread I am beginning to wrap my head around the many ways insulin can be utilized.
> The lingering question is then directly in regards to what I quoted.
> What are the basic points to make sure fat accumulation is mitigated with insulin use.
> Is it simply to not eat dietary fats around the slin use? Is the idea that eating fats while using insulin will cause the fat to get stored even true? At all?.


good question. just so your aware dietary fat does NOT require insulin at all to get stored as fat. Fat gets easily stored as body fat in the body with enzymes (lipid enzyme complex).
so if you consume fat, wither with insulin or without insulin, it can be easily stored either way.

the reason we don't consume much fat when taking insulin though is because fat slows down the digestion of carbs. we don' want this. we want to assimilate the glucose as quickly as possible while glut 4 is high (that way its stored as muscle glycogen).

as for not getting fat with insulin use. well thats not dependent on the insulin use per se, thats dependent on you, your diet, and your food choices.

any 'over consumption' of food is going to make your body much more able to store body fat obviously . so what I tell guys to do is to make their insulin use WORK with your diet , and don't make your diet have to be formulated/dictated by your insulin use.

example-
if your carb macros for the day are set at 300g. then make sure that they stay at 300g when you use insulin. don't bump them up to 400g just cause your using insulin that day. instead re-arrange your diet for that day so that the 300g carbs you would normally eat will fall around your normal carb consumption (just now with insulin use)

now IF you goal was simply to put on size. then sure use the insulin use to help you crush more food and carbs. but if you want to stay lean you have to make the insulin use sync with your current diet.

on a side note- when your insulin use is high enough, your metabolism will pick up and your liver will convert more T4 into T3. so insulin if used properly can help you stay lean as well (yes there are cutting protocols with insulin use).
however , insulin use works best in a cut as an anti-catabolic agent more then anything else

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## Cupid

> good question. just so your aware dietary fat does NOT require insulin at all to get stored as fat. Fat gets easily stored as body fat in the body with enzymes (lipid enzyme complex).
> so if you consume fat, wither with insulin or without insulin, it can be easily stored either way.
> 
> the reason we don't consume much fat when taking insulin though is because fat slows down the digestion of carbs. we don' want this. we want to assimilate the glucose as quickly as possible while glut 4 is high (that way its stored as muscle glycogen).
> 
> as for not getting fat with insulin use. well thats not dependent on the insulin use per se, thats dependent on you, your diet, and your food choices.
> 
> any 'over consumption' of food is going to make your body much more able to store body fat obviously . so what I tell guys to do is to make their insulin use WORK with your diet , and don't make your diet have to be formulated/dictated by your insulin use.
> 
> ...


I see.
So if my last meal of the day is where I usually put in 30-40g of added fats for the day alongside protein and another 100g of carbs, and say i use 2-3iu of Humalog after eating, it will not cause additional fat storage even though it was a fat heavy meal?
Actually, even one better......if I am taking in a big cheat meal on Saturday nights with tons of carbs/protein/and fats, would it be wise to use maybe 5iu of Humalog just to help process all the carbs i just ate? And will it have no effect on additional fat storage? Or will it also increase the rate of fat storage seeing as how i just ingested a bunch of fat too? (Think like 2 cheeseburgers and fries....probably around 50g protein, 200g carb, and 100g fat)

As far a using insulin on a cutting, could you give us an example protocol? 
Let's say I'm running 500g of Test + 500mg other AAS. 100mcg T4 + 25mcg T3. Considering these, I usually start my cut at 250g protein, 325g carb, 80g fat for the day and slowly reduce the carbs and/or increase t3 and add clen slowly as weight loss slows down. How would you add Humalog and GH to this cutting plan?

Thank you again for all this. I hope these questions are also helping others here and not just me lol  :Smilie:

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## Odessaholland

I don't know if insulin is good for this. Maybe you should use lighter drugs first. For example, you can try to buy victoza online (it is still taken for the prevention of type 2 diabetes). Or other medications, but not insulin

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