# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > BOXING / FIGHTING / WRESTLING >  Mike Tyson vs. Ken Shamrock

## nickrizz

a few years ago they were thinking of having this fight, but UFC couldnt pay Tyson more than 1 mill and he wanted like 20mill, you imagine how much they wouldve made on PPV buys??!?!??

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## H-BOL

TYson woulda won for sure.. the immense power.. if he connected in a punch LIGHTS OUT SHAMROCK haha

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## nickrizz

i could see both fighters winning:
if tyson connected with a punch (the gloves they wear arent that padded), shamrock would be done
if shamrock took him down it would be over

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## adamw1

Shamrock would take him straight down as he knows he couldnt go punch for punch it wouldnt last 5 mins imo

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## symatech

my money would be on shamrock

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## powerlifter

shamrock easy - unless Tyson bit him

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## BOUNCER

Shamrock wouldn't even see the punch that left him brain damaged.

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## symatech

> Shamrock wouldn't even see the punch that left him brain damaged.


maybe a couple of years ago, but not today. I guess it depends on what kind of fight it was.

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## nickrizz

lets say both in thier prime, tyson vs spinks and shamrock vs gracie 2

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## adamw1

> lets say both in thier prime, tyson vs spinks and shamrock vs gracie 2


umm didnt tyson end his career by knocking him out.But in his prime he was a good fighter but very awkward I think tyson would have beaten him then aswell

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## nickrizz

> umm didnt tyson end his career by knocking him out.But in his prime he was a good fighter but very awkward I think tyson would have beaten him then aswell


i believe spinks didnt fight again.

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## nickrizz

just checked, yes, tyson was his last fight spinks ended his career at 31-1 (21 KO)

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## Grappler_Mike

As soon as they clinch and go down Tyson will be like a fish out of water.

Tyson either wins the fight in the first few seconds(punchers chance)or Shamrock would dominate Tyson as would most B and even C class MMA fighters.

You have to understand its the same thing as if you put boxing gloves on Shamrock and told him to box Tyson.Shamrock would get KOed in 5 seconds.

Now if Tyson(in his prime) had a year to prepare for a MMA fight,learned to avoid submissions and worked non stop on his sprawl,he would be one of the most dominating MMA fighters in the world.

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## nickrizz

agreed

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## H-BOL

who is this spinks guys?

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## nickrizz

michael spinks. he had the title and there was a huge buildup that the fight was going to be the one tyson couldnt win, and spinks was going to expose his weaknesses. they hyped it and hyped it. tyson knocked him out in i think 40 sec one of the worst beatings ever in boxing

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## sp9

I know ken is great on the ground and all but do you really think Mike wouldn't know what to do with all the street fights he has been in in the past. He would probably break the rules and get disqualified. I bet if he was in an ankle lock he would either take a chomp out of Ken or rip his testicles off.

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## MikeyZ23

bottom line: put me up against both of them and i'll come out on top... yea right

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## IronHammer

shamrock would beat that queer niggers ass

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## KAEW44

those 4ounce or less gloves on Tyson would mean instant death to anyone that recieves a full power blow to the head or body even!! The main problem with MMA is that although it is mainly known as a 'no-rules' sport..the truth is there are many many rules compared to any other fighting sport because the figthing options are so many! there are even situations wich are 'unknown' to the rules!
My point is how do you expect mike tyson to memorize and comprehend all those rules and more importantly follow all of them!! you try a toe-hold and he'll do the same except he'll bite your toes off!!

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## zap2

lol someone had to comment on tyson biting stuff off...actually more then 1 of you guys did... lol

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## nickrizz

i dont think tyson would win, it would be a great fight though, even today, they are both past prime but still very good for their age. when shamrock shoots in i dont think tyson would avoid it

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## BOUNCER

> shamrock would beat that queer niggers ass


Well with comments like this, forget Tyson, here's one guy who bite off more than he could chew!. BANNED.

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## nickrizz

good job bouncer those comments were uncalled for

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## ColdSore

tyson up, and tyson on the ground...to quick and mean...tyson wins!

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## dnj

Tyson's skill is in boxing, if it were a boxing match, Tyson would win as Shamrock is not a professional boxer. 
However Shamrock's skill is in submission fighting, which Tyson would have no match in beating him.

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## BOUNCER

> Tyson's skill is in boxing, if it were a boxing match, Tyson would win as Shamrock is not a professional boxer. 
> However Shamrock's skill is in submission fighting, which Tyson would have no match in beating him.


Although I'm not a professional boxer, I'm a very experienced boxer and kickboxer and I can tell you (as I said earlier) Ken wouldn't see the punch that left him brain damaged. Forget fighting Mike on the ground or in a clinch, Ken would still have to come in Mikes boxing circle and I'm pretty sure he'd finish Ken off pretty easy. Might be my confidence as a boxer talking, but I could pretty much take a non boxer (right terminology?) apart PDQ.

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## H-BOL

tyson fighting anyone without boxing gloves on is suicide for the other person plain and simple guys

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## zap2

ive only seen a couple clips of some tyson fights and even less shamrock fights but i would hope shamrock would win...i mean tyson bit someones ear off (ive never actually seen the clip).... but may the best man win

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## zap2

if they fought

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## nickrizz

i believe shamrock would keep him away with kicks and then drop him with a takedown, after that it would be over, unless tyson connects

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## Mr.Magoo

It's all about the size of the fight in the dog. Both of those guys are some of the meanest mfers you'll ever see in the ring.

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## nickrizz

well put it this way, i wouldnt want to fight either one of them.

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## zap2

> well put it this way, i wouldnt want to fight either one of them.


ditto

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## temperoath

A guy I work with is a hard core tyson fan and would probably kiss his ass if given the chance. He was telling me one day that when tyson was at the zoo he offered the guide 20,000 to let him in the silverback gorilla cage and punch it. I laughed my ass off, then he went on and on about how the gorilla didn't stand a chance. Here are the stats:

Mike tyson VS Silverback gorilla
5'11" 5'7"
reach: 71" reach: 100"+
weight: 225 weight: 410

Who would win? Considering the gorilla thought tyson was intruding or something.

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## nickrizz

gorilla.

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## Grappler_Mike

Gorilla by rear naked choke.  :LOL:   :Dancing Banana:   :LOL:

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## Cyto78

Its funny to see that anybody would believe that Tyson would win.The ONLY way Tyson would win is if he got that lucky shot in on Shamrock.Other than that it would be a one sided fight.Tyson dont hit no harder than Tank's ass does and surely he dont even have the few grappling skills that Tank does have, and we all know how tank stacks up against the caliber of fighters today......oh wait he dont!He is strong though...benches 600 lbs.......now dont get me wrong Tyson is tough but he is far from a MMA fighter.Tyson wins in boxing ring against Shamrock-Shamrock wins in Octagon against Tyson....

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## RoChamp

i wasn't going to post here, but...TYSON HITS TO HARDER THAN TANK DOES? is that what you just said? 
because i think you didn't, i think it's just a VERY complex spelling mistake.

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## dynamike

Tyson if its boxing....Shamrock in no holds...only if Shamrock could get past the first flurry of fists..and that wicked upper cut...hed have to get him to the ground fast..if Tyson catches him with even half a punch..it could be devastating for Shamrock...
on the flip side could you imagine Tyson in a submission hold??

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## Grappler_Mike

Tyson wouldnt have the patience for a MMA fight anyway.

Can you imagine him in someones guard,he would get extremly frustrated and either gas himself out or bite.

Another thing about Tysons punching,in his boxing matches even against tomatoe cans,he doesnt just walk up to them and end the fight with his first punch..

I still hold to my opinion that even against C class MMA fighters he would loose most of the time.

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## nickrizz

if tyson got into it when he was young he would be great, but thats like having football players play rugby and vise versa. its totally different and hard to compare thats why i posted, but i still think shamrock would win

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## HeavyHitter

Gotta agree w/ Cyto on this one.... (Tyson might have a harder punch then Abbot but nobody knows $hit when it comes to real stats), Unless Tyson gets that lucky haymaker on Shamrock, doubt it it b/c he'll be double-legged so fast, then fight will probably end right there, but the odds of that are slim. What it comes down to is that wrestler/grapplers will beat a boxer in a UFC fight. And in street fights as well imo

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## sp9

Anyone see the post UFC 48 press conference. Tito started an argument with Ken and he was pissed!

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## nickrizz

> Anyone see the post UFC 48 press conference. Tito started an argument with Ken and he was pissed!


they are definately going to fight again... is the interview on the internet anywhere??

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## sp9

> they are definately going to fight again... is the interview on the internet anywhere??


Yes I d/l it..looking....top of this page. The argument is near the end....


http://mma-fighter.com/interviews/

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## sp9

Also a few highlights here:

http://www.bjjfighter.com/Video/

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## nickrizz

> Also a few highlights here:
> 
> http://www.bjjfighter.com/Video/


my friggin computer wont unzip files i dont know whats wrong

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## skinjob

many of you seem to think ken can't take a punch. now a tyson punch is no average punch but then neither are those that have managed to connect with shamrock!

its simplistic to say that one or the other would win. kens repertoire is far more extensive and adaptable. i think in boxing, its clear tyson would win. or would he? he is getting a bit past it these days

i just think ken is better. bah!

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## GQ-Bouncer

no

Tyson would win hands down, 

tyson knocks people out with 16oz gloves on, your telling me that ken shamrock or ANYBODY for that matter could brush off a blow from the hand of tyson? I don't know

It entirely would be decided if ken shamrock put him on the ground in the beginning of the fight

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## Elysium

at the end of the day, UFC is basically fighting, its beatin someone down. You have ure own style and thats that, weather it be kendo, boxing, karate whatever. BUT, now heres the thing... Tyson is a street fighter, thats his style, in a bar brawl, a street fight he would absolutly kill anyone, he a phyco. 

My vote goes for Tyson

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## nickrizz

if shamrock kicked him in the legs tyson would fall like bricks

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## rugger2

Ken Shamrock Wins Hands Down

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## Lozgod

No holds Shamrock might of got him. I don't know that would be a good ass fight.

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## Cyto78

Don't think it woud be a good fight at all!Street fighting involves grappling as well as strikes...Ken has both.....Tyson knows how to strike and bite.......biting is all he would be able to resort to when Ken slammed his ass......and im sure if he bit Ken while down Ken would bite back and then break his arms and maybe ankles too....depending on what kind of mood he was in.There is a reason boxers do not fight in MMA...although a few have and lost very very quickly......it isnt just because of money its because their reputations on the line...knowing they would lose there is no way they would ruin that...........Tyson with the right kind of training under his belt might be able to be good in a couple of years.

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## kingofmasters

Why Ken Shamrock?

Why not middleweight Frank Shamrock...

Or are the person whose style I trained in... Bas Rutten.

Greets
Kingofmasters

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## Cyto78

> Why Ken Shamrock?
> 
> Why not middleweight Frank Shamrock...
> 
> Or are the person whose style I trained in... Bas Rutten.
> 
> Greets
> Kingofmasters



He would get ruined bye Frank and Bas.......Frank would snap his arm and Bas would throw one of those thunderous kicks down on his head....he would get crumbled........ these two may be better fighters than Ken IMO........Frank is beyond awesome.....

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## craneboy

tyson, his speed and power would prevail. shamrock could get lucky and take down tyson to the mat and then shamrock would probably win. in my opinion all that jui jitsu ground sh!t is for people with no heart for real fighting

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## Ridla

Tyson would know him the....FUK OUT!!!!!!!

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## nickrizz

> tyson, his speed and power would prevail. shamrock could get lucky and take down tyson to the mat and then shamrock would probably win. in my opinion all that jui jitsu ground sh!t is for people with no heart for real fighting


UFC is real fighting and most guys competing have some traingin in Jui Jitsu, it works.

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## nickrizz

> Why Ken Shamrock?
> 
> Why not middleweight Frank Shamrock...
> 
> Or are the person whose style I trained in... Bas Rutten.
> 
> Greets
> Kingofmasters


I picked ken because frank is not a heavyweight and not bas because the majority of people who do not know anything about mma know shamrock from wwe.

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## Mr.Magoo

What about Tyson vs. Mirko Cro Cop. He's a bad ass K1 fighter.
Records: Amature 40 wins 5 loss 31KO
Pro: 20win 7 loss 13 KO

I've seen a few of his fights and this guys a mean S.O.B!

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## nickrizz

i dont really like K1 that much, i think its boring

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## Devil Dog74

Prime time tyson (80's) vs Ken shamrock now hmm... Lights camera action its over KO'ed....Shamrock down before people can get back to their seats to watch the fight... sux to buy PPV.  :EEK!:  

Tyson will PWN Shamrock but i don't know about the tyson at his current state... he hasn't been fighting as much as shamrock and whoever has the edge will surely walk away. I"d put money on shamrock tyson is coming back for sure tho. 

Devil Dog74  :Strong Smiley:

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## Cyto78

Tyson plain and simple does not have the ground skill to fight somebody like Ken........I believe people that think Tyson would win are people that also do not have any ground skill and believe they themselves are good strikers and have only fought somebody else that strikes.You fight a good grappler and all your flury of punches will not last but a few seconds until you hit that ground....then you are like a fish out of water that will just lay there and flop around while the grappler has his way with you and crushes you buy strikes or submission.......A good grappler would humble a boxer 90% of the time.....i'll be dam if a grappler is just going to sit there with his chin out so the boxer can hit him.......i'll be dam if the boxer will be able to avoid a take down or slam from the grappler......resistence would be futile!Now with all this said the best fighters are those that can do both!

One more thing.....why Tyson....why not Holyfield or Lewis....both have had there way with Tyson......at leats both would be able to keep there composure......Tyson gets mad ....I think thats why he loses every time now......his madness distracts him from the fight.........I dont think Tyson could have beat Holyfield or Lewis in his prime.......like he has really lost it......his apponents are just so much better and are not scared of him.Striker/Grappler makes the best fighters!

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## nickrizz

just look at tank abbot, we have discussed this so many times. shamrock would have shot from across the ring and taken him down and that is it.

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## cjvan

I agree with most of what Cyto says but I know my way around both games pretty well and defantly the boxing stuff we disagree on. <p>
First off Michael Spinks was a light heavy and moved to heavy wieght he was going to retire anyway, was a devistating puncher as a light heavy but had little power as a heavy.Saw a big fight, took it and there wasn't much else in the game for him, never lost a fight as Light Heavy wieght. Tyson , a clown at the moment would have killed lewis and holyfield in his prime , lewis gets knocked out by bums and no great champ has been knocked out by bums. Holyfield would have been tougher but was tyson was machine in his prime . Tyson walked through a washed up Larry Holmes and destroyed him. That same Larry Holmes wrestled around with top heavy wieghts for years after that ,which really just shows how big of bums the present heavy wieghts are. Lets add in the fact that foreman , was still putting some of the guys on the mat. Tyson lost to holyfield yes but he also was wrestling around with Bosa when he knocked him out. Tyson did not wrestle around with anyone in his prime. It's embarrasing that Roy Jones (middlewieght, fought as light heavy but basically best as a middle)could move up that far and win a championship , never been done before because the lighter guys couldn't handle the power. The problem is that with the bums out there now it was easliy done.<p>
I also am a big fan of MMA, Shamrock would beat Tyson, over and over it is proven that you have to train as a mix martial artist to compete against the MMA guys. Bosa a legit heavy wieght knocked out in K1 recently and that's not even mixed Martial arts , the top fighters ability to get guys on the ground is unbelieveable.<p>
I have boxed and haven't lost a street fight( been jumped a few times and suckered but no big deal, even then not knocked of my feet , just never got a chance to fight because cops or bouncers stop the fight, still knew I would kick the guys ass) since elementary so it irrates the crap out of me that these **** MMA fighters (good ones) who most likely break my **** arm.lol i have messed with a few of these guys in the gym , the lower level Jiu jitsu guys I think could be hit and knocked off their games but the instructor , who was trained in Brazil could be a nightmare. The good MMA guys are machines and will get you the ground or let you take them to the ground and then lock your **** arm, leg or neck. As a guy who has had a lot of fights , watched boxing forever and watched every Major MMA fight available, those **** MMA guys are obssessed with improving and learing every different style thats what makes them so tough.I have watched those guys, Coleman, Shamrock (both frank too) , Gracies and not to mention the new guys who are pretty much nuts. They fight a controlled 20 minute brawl depending what format), the whole thing is bruttal , saddly i love it.lol<p> No sport is more bruttal and I love the fact that 95% of the time , the fighters leave totally respecting each other. Does someone know what the hell is going on in brazil, these **** guys are like fighting machines.lol

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## GQ-Bouncer

you guys forget, Tyson is a born and raised fighting machine

you gotta remember, this guy grew up on the street, not some tryhard gym, tyson in his prime had the speed of vitor belford and the power of bob sapp

a ken /tyson fight would be good because of the age fairness, I believe firmly though, if ken couldn't take out tito, he wouldn't take mike

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## sp9

> you guys forget, Tyson is a born and raised fighting machine
> 
> you gotta remember, this guy grew up on the street, not some tryhard gym, tyson in his prime had the speed of vitor belford and the power of bob sapp
> 
> a ken /tyson fight would be good because of the age fairness, I believe firmly though, if ken couldn't take out tito, he wouldn't take mike



I think Ken had some problems against tito for other reasons one of them being weight, other injury. Tito still refuses to fight ken at 230-240 and tells ken he has to come down to 205-208 to fight him. Ken has asked him to put on the weight and he just refuses. Ken has said he will do whatever it takes to get back in the ring with tito again. 

I agree that tyson is an animal, he actually would beat up old people to steal from them when he was a kid. I just do not think that tyson would follow the rules in a UFC fight, he would push it too far.

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## Devil Dog74

> I agree with most of what Cyto says but I know my way around both games pretty well and defantly the boxing stuff we disagree on. <p>
> First off Michael Spinks was a light heavy and moved to heavy wieght he was going to retire anyway, was a devistating puncher as a light heavy but had little power as a heavy.Saw a big fight, took it and there wasn't much else in the game for him, never lost a fight as Light Heavy wieght. Tyson , a clown at the moment would have killed lewis and holyfield in his prime , lewis gets knocked out by bums and no great champ has been knocked out by bums. Holyfield would have been tougher but was tyson was machine in his prime . Tyson walked through a washed up Larry Holmes and destroyed him. That same Larry Holmes wrestled around with top heavy wieghts for years after that ,which really just shows how big of bums the present heavy wieghts are. Lets add in the fact that foreman , was still putting some of the guys on the mat. Tyson lost to holyfield yes but he also was wrestling around with Bosa when he knocked him out. Tyson did not wrestle around with anyone in his prime. It's embarrasing that Roy Jones (middlewieght, fought as light heavy but basically best as a middle)could move up that far and win a championship , never been done before because the lighter guys couldn't handle the power. The problem is that with the bums out there now it was easliy done.<p>
> I also am a big fan of MMA, Shamrock would beat Tyson, over and over it is proven that you have to train as a mix martial artist to compete against the MMA guys. Bosa a legit heavy wieght knocked out in K1 recently and that's not even mixed Martial arts , the top fighters ability to get guys on the ground is unbelieveable.<p>
> I have boxed and haven't lost a street fight( been jumped a few times and suckered but no big deal, even then not knocked of my feet , just never got a chance to fight because cops or bouncers stop the fight, still knew I would kick the guys ass) since elementary so it irrates the crap out of me that these **** MMA fighters (good ones) who most likely break my **** arm.lol i have messed with a few of these guys in the gym , the lower level Jiu jitsu guys I think could be hit and knocked off their games but the instructor , who was trained in Brazil could be a nightmare. The good MMA guys are machines and will get you the ground or let you take them to the ground and then lock your **** arm, leg or neck. As a guy who has had a lot of fights , watched boxing forever and watched every Major MMA fight available, those **** MMA guys are obssessed with improving and learing every different style thats what makes them so tough.I have watched those guys, Coleman, Shamrock (both frank too) , Gracies and not to mention the new guys who are pretty much nuts. They fight a controlled 20 minute brawl depending what format), the whole thing is bruttal , saddly i love it.lol<p> No sport is more bruttal and I love the fact that 95% of the time , the fighters leave totally respecting each other. Does someone know what the hell is going on in brazil, these **** guys are like fighting machines.lol


Amen Brotha

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## Rsox1

they are both way way way over the hill, but mike was really quick back then and 
i am pretty confident he could avoid being taken down until he punched shamrock out, I alwyas looked at it this way, the money is in boxing, so if these guys in mma are so good at their disciplines and fighting why don't they work on boxing and try to make some decent $$$$$$$, and also if a fat bastard like Tank Abbot who was just a puncher could do allright I think a trained puncher like Mike could hold his own

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## Cyto78

That fat bastard you are talking about has more power in one of his arms then most people have in their whole body.......I think the only way Tyson could avoid being taken down is to run....which he would not do...this is why he would end up on the ground.I dont think it is just about the money for MMA fighters...I think they want to prove they are the baddest fighters on the planet.......Most boxers believe they are the baddest fighters on the planet therefor I believe it should be the boxer who should step in to the no holds arenas.....that is a real fight.......Although it is exciting to watch two strikers go at it.......

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## cjvan

Defenatly cyto , the strange thing about top MMa fighters is there obsession to be the best that includes their training, which includes everything. Money defenatly isn't there number 1 atraction to the sport. 
The take downs are crazy , it's not like boxers land every punch they throw miss a punch against good MMA fighter and you will be on your back for the first time of your life. Great fighters become very average if they don't know how to fight from there back.

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## sp9

Well Tyson fights next week, I think in Kentucky. We will see what he has left in him.

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## GQ-Bouncer

Cyto - your competley wrong, on pretty well EVERYTHING you said

yeah, athletes have an attitude - and why not? the people around them coaches, press, friends just hype them up ALL the time, of course there gonna have attitudes

Boxing training is MUCH harder than MMA training, as admitted by tito ortiz himself, your forgetting, both these men are skilled, it's all about desire - and i'd like to believe tyson would win

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## sp9

> Boxing training is MUCH harder than MMA training, as admitted by tito ortiz himself,


I don't get this? Boxers have such short rounds when compared to, what is it, 10 minute first round in Pride? Used to be 15 minutes for a first round. Training for striking is training for striking, I would think kickboxing is more demanding than just using your hands. Ever see someone like Mark Coleman or Mark Kerr workout?

How about that documentary on HBO with Mark Kerr, looked to me like Bas Rutten trained him pretty hard? 

Pride Rounds: Fights are 3 rounds formats. The first round is ten (10) minutes, the second round is five (5) minutes and the third round is five (5) minutes. There are no extra rounds. The interval between each round shall be two (2) minutes.

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## Cyto78

> Cyto - your competley wrong, on pretty well EVERYTHING you said
> 
> yeah, athletes have an attitude - and why not? the people around them coaches, press, friends just hype them up ALL the time, of course there gonna have attitudes
> 
> Boxing training is MUCH harder than MMA training, as admitted by tito ortiz himself, your forgetting, both these men are skilled, it's all about desire - and i'd like to believe tyson would win



Hey your entitled to your opinion......glad to here you are a Tyson fan.......he was one of the greats......as far as boxing training being MUCH harder than MMA training I think I will have to disagree with you on that one........a boxer may be conditioned for boxing but I guarantee if he was to find himself in a grappling match he would get gased out fairly quick........grappling is probably one of the most physically demanding sports in the world........the training envolved to get to that level of conditioning to be able to grapple for long periods of time is second to none.........and no I am not forgetting that both these men are skilled...I know Tyson was a beast is a beast but it would take alot of crosstraning for Tyson to step into the MMA world.......

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## dynamike

props to Scott b there for puttin up two of the greats in MMA...Kerr...and of course...BAS!!!!!....

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## Grappler_Mike

For the people saying Tyson would win because he was a street fighter,lol.
Im sure a professional boxer had such a tough time taking out some unskilled street thugs lol.

The fact is,theres people who dont compete(arent famous) and train in MMA who would destroy tyson in a fight.Bring in a proffesional MMA fighter and it isnt even a contest,Tyson as is would be a tomato can in a MMA fight.No offense to the Tyson fans.

MMA is not Tysons game period.Its like saying Tiger Woods can hit more home runs then anyone in baseball because hes the best golfer.

People have no clue how effective grappling is till they themselves have been subbed.Im telling you its a wake up call bigtime.

Also remember boxing gloves/MMA gloves arent there to protect the person being punched.They are there to protect the fighters hands.

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## JDawg1536

> For the people saying Tyson would win because he was a street fighter,lol.
> Im sure a professional boxer had such a tough time taking out some unskilled street thugs lol.
> 
> The fact is,theres people who dont compete(arent famous) and train in MMA who would destroy tyson in a fight.Bring in a proffesional MMA fighter and it isnt even a contest,Tyson as is would be a tomato can in a MMA fight.No offense to the Tyson fans.
> 
> MMA is not Tysons game period.Its like saying Tiger Woods can hit more home runs then anyone in baseball because hes the best golfer.
> 
> People have no clue how effective grappling is till they themselves have been subbed.Im telling you its a wake up call bigtime.
> 
> Also remember boxing gloves/MMA gloves arent there to protect the person being punched.They are there to protect the fighters hands.


Thats true, but you have to see the flip side. If Tyson could learn how to block Shamrocks kicks, how do u suppose shamrock would win? If he tries to rush in and take down tyson, anyone that has ever boxed or is a boxing fan will tell you that tyson threw an amazing and accurate uppercut, and could time his punches perfectly. I think it would be a toss up, if they fought 10 times I dont think either would win more than 6.

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## GQ-Bouncer

Don't get me wrong, both MMA and boxing are very hard, i'm just saying boxing is HARDER

i'm currently doing MMA training right now (boxing, kickboxing, BJJ), boxing is harder than jujitsu because of you have to have endurance and power throughout a long period of time, jujitsu, once tired, both opponent can try tieing eachother up and just sit there and rest

than again, i do have a biased opinion, my boxing instructor is pretty rough on me

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## Grappler_Mike

> Thats true, but you have to see the flip side. If Tyson could learn how to block Shamrocks kicks, how do u suppose shamrock would win? If he tries to rush in and take down tyson, anyone that has ever boxed or is a boxing fan will tell you that tyson threw an amazing and accurate uppercut, and could time his punches perfectly. I think it would be a toss up, if they fought 10 times I dont think either would win more than 6.


My comment was based on Tyson "as is".

With 1-2 years of MMA training Tyson would be ranked one of the top ten heavyweights in MMA.  :Wink:

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## Div1Wrestler

As much as I like Shamock just the wind from a shot from Tyson and he's done , Shamock does not have a good leg takedown shot (and I seen every one of his fights and he does'nt) And an in close clinch is tysons game sorry to say...

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## nickrizz

I still dont see tyson winning. I mean if they fought 10 times i definately think tyson would win a few because he would get a shot in and knock him out. Ken Shamrock won 4 or 5 toughman competitions so he could take a hard punch (i dont know if he could take one as hard as tyson).

If tyson hit shamrock on the top of his head with a normal jab wearing mma gloves i think he would break his hand. Shamrock lately has been fighting on his feet not on the ground, this is something he wouldnt be able to do against tyson.

also shamrock got destroyed by tito because he dropped like 20 lbs to fight and when you have such a low bodyfat % like shamrock and you drop that much weight you are going to loose a hell of a lot of muscle and strength.

IM HAPPY I STARTED THIS THREAT

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## Paingain

Shamrock would kill him, Tyson is just a puncher, not a fighter, all Tyson ever fought was no name brawlers, and Don King knew his boy couldnt move worth a ****. Thats why anytime Tyson fought a fighter that could dance, he lost. As soon as he went to throw a punch, Shamrock would drop down to his knees and grab those bird legs, pull them out from under him and crack Mike's skull!

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## ironfist

Shamrock without a doubt...Ken is a seasoned vetran and knows how to avoid being hit. Tyson would never land the big one...

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## nickrizz

Just so you guys know i was talking about both of them in their prime. A fight with both of them now would be horrible. If you took them now i think shamrock would have trouble because he likes to stand up and fight right now and he wouldnt be able to stand up to Tyson, but if he fought with his takedowns as i have said 50x's before, tyson would have no chance

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## ironfist

> Just so you guys know i was talking about both of them in their prime. A fight with both of them now would be horrible. If you took them now i think shamrock would have trouble because he likes to stand up and fight right now and he wouldnt be able to stand up to Tyson, but if he fought with his takedowns as i have said 50x's before, tyson would have no chance


He may like to stand up and fight but he's still got great ground n pound game. He wouldn't stand with someone like tyson. He switched his game up against tito and lost. He also looked very out of it, definately vut too much weight too hard for that fight...

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## nickrizz

that is true, he does alter his fighting depending on who he fights, looked good vs kimo

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## ironfist

> that is true, he does alter his fighting depending on who he fights, looked good vs kimo


It's too bad that fight didn't go longer so we could really see where he's at...

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## nickrizz

yea, i cant believe shamrock tested negative for roids. i cant believe he isnt on them.. i dont know how a guy his age can look like that. plus kimo testing positive wont help him much for future bouts

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## ironfist

> yea, i cant believe shamrock tested negative for roids. i cant believe he isnt on them.. i dont know how a guy his age can look like that. plus kimo testing positive wont help him much for future bouts


That's probably why it is rumored that the next UFC's are gonna be back east. Nevada sucks, the athletic commision is a real pain in the ass about juice. That's why you never see certain fighters in vegas. They will lose the UFC events unless things are changed. O well, I already have plane tickets and ufc tickets for the one next month...

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## ironfist

> yea, i cant believe shamrock tested negative for roids. i cant believe he isnt on them.. i dont know how a guy his age can look like that. plus kimo testing positive wont help him much for future bouts


That's probably why it is rumored that the next UFC's are gonna be back east. Nevada sucks, the athletic commision is a real pain in the ass about juice. That's why you never see certain fighters in vegas. They will lose the UFC events unless things are changed. O well, I already have plane tickets and ufc tickets for the one next month...

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## nickrizz

i am going to see the olympia in october but i am thinking of flying out for the day to see the ufc next month also

----------


## fefespbeto

i may go too...but i dont wanna pay 300 hundred bucks...hehe...u can pay 100..but u ain/t gonna see ****

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## ironfist

> i may go too...but i dont wanna pay 300 hundred bucks...hehe...u can pay 100..but u ain/t gonna see ****


The seats are pretty well laid out and there are a bunch of big screens so you can see from anywhere. I'd rather be in the 4th row though...

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## palme

> Although I'm not a professional boxer, I'm a very experienced boxer and kickboxer and I can tell you (as I said earlier) Ken wouldn't see the punch that left him brain damaged. Forget fighting Mike on the ground or in a clinch, Ken would still have to come in Mikes boxing circle and I'm pretty sure he'd finish Ken off pretty easy. Might be my confidence as a boxer talking, but I could pretty much take a non boxer (right terminology?) apart PDQ.


So true, boxers hands are so irretating! Always in your face (no phun), i hate boxers, ill take on a judoka anyday.

Tyson would slaughter shamrock, it wouldnt even be funny to watch.

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## nickrizz

i went to a UFC a while ago when it was at the meadowlands. it was a good show, it just seems like they dont put any money into the show.

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## palme

> i went to a UFC a while ago when it was at the meadowlands. it was a good show, it just seems like they dont put any money into the show.


The show is the 2 guys fighting!!! Enjoy the fight!

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## nickrizz

i mean the guys get paid crap, and i was sitted so far away, the big screen tvs were crap.

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## nickrizz

> Tyson would slaughter shamrock, it wouldnt even be funny to watch.


Tyson would be destroyed. no boxer just boxing as their deiscipline has ever done anything in MMA (if memory serves me correctly)

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## palme

> Tyson would be destroyed. no boxer just boxing as their deiscipline has ever done anything in MMA (if memory serves me correctly)


Would you call butterbean a boxer? Seriusly...

How you gonna take Tyson down without him getting a chance to connect with his hooks and upercuts? Remember he only needs 1 hit for you to go down.

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## nickrizz

butterbean would be destroyed in the ufc. their superheavys would slam him or jab him so hard before he threw a stipid haymaker

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## palme

> butterbean would be destroyed in the ufc. their superheavys would slam him or jab him so hard before he threw a stipid haymaker


I belive it was Genki Sudo who did a flying armbar at butterbean in pride. Sudo is like 160lbs or something.

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## nickrizz

yea he is around 155, thats what i mean, a boxer who throws haymakers wont ever make it in mma, i dont think, unless they expand their disciplines and learn other styles

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## Cyto78

When was the last time Tyson KO somebody with one hit........?It would be very unlikely even if he did hit somebody in the MMA world that they would just crumble and thats it.....thats funny!!!!!Boxers can not kick anybodys ass in the MMA world just because they are boxers.......they MUST have cross training to do well........if not they will be dominated most of the time.........I dont know if anybody here remembers reading about the fight between Ali vs Inoki......if I remember correctly it went all 12 rounds....Ali won by decision....he did not KO Inoki........and to top all this off Inoki was not even allowed to take Ali down.......so basically he had to fight Ali at Ali's game and it still took all 12 rounds for Ali to only win by decision........they knew that if they allowed Inoki to fight like a true Jui-Jitsu fighter Ali would have been dominated..........also in an interview with Ali he was once asked who would have won in a fight between himself and Bruce Lee and he replied if it was in a boxing ring he would win.....but if it was on the street Bruce would kill me.........the reason I mention ALI is because he was everything Tyson is not "a truly skilled boxer".......Tyson would be mauled by an MMA fighter if it is by kicks,take downs,arm bars,choke outs, strikes while hes on his back.....he would just lose....I hope a fight like this happens some day!!!!!!

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## nickrizz

it will never happen, but thanks for agreeing

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## Cyto78

Hey I pulled this off of a Mike Tyson fan website........

Thursday, December 25 2003 By Joe Koizumi 
An influential Japanese sports paper has reported on the front page on the Christmas Eve edition that Mike Tyson would battle Brazilian jujitsu expert Rickson Gracie in Japan next spring.

The Japanese K-1 group plans a final fight of the legendary judoka Rickson (pronounced Hickson) taking place against Iron Mike. 

Rickson has been unbeaten in more than 400 battles, having defeated nine wrestlers or K-l battlers here in Japan. The detailed report said that the planned Tyson vs. Gracie bout would be the historically biggest K-1 event ever. Not only Rickson but the winner of ex-sumo grand champ Akebono and K-1 battler Bob Sapp on December 31 is anticipating a sensational encounter with Tyson here. 

Is it true that Mike Tyson will face such a jujitsu expert as the formidable Rickson? 

Full story found here:

http://www.fightnews.com 




Mind you this info is very old but this is a fight I would love to see!

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## nickrizz

rickson would beat him. i want to see rickson fight in the UFC

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## dynamike

guess were gonna see how much gas he has in the tank on the 31st against this scrub Williams...or how unmedicated his trainers let him fight...

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## nickrizz

the fight is on the 30th

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## Makaveli_786

Uhmm... 30-40 seconds.

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## nickrizz

he is going to crush this guy. The guy isnt even ranked in the top 15 of any of the boxing rankings. even though some people dont think those rankings amount to much.

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## Makaveli_786

I dont think those rankings really matter either, the fact is you either have it or not at the MOMENT, if you do not possess it at the moment you lose, you pull yourself together and go back for it, theres too much emphasis on KO's and not enough at sportmanship.

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## hurricanejujitsu

Rickson is the same beast/ledgend in MMA that Tyson is in boxing... His round house kicks are trremendous. It's the age old question Boxer vs. Grappler... I think the great Gean Labell laid this argument to rest in the 50's... A boxer only has one chance to catch the experience grappler with a punch, before being taken down... not to mention kicks/knees/elbows... remeber in boxing you are broken up from the clinch.
Nowdays in NHB, it is more a test of atrition/stamina/muscle endurance, and hart than one style over another.. Everyone is crosstrainig and knows what to expect. Boxing,Muytai,Judo,Jujitsu,Wrestling,Sambo...There is NO Ultimate Martial art only ultimate Martial ARTISTS! Remeber a fight happens in real time and is thus sercumstancial. Tyson might get that one shot in, He might get his arm broken!
"I love this game" -Hurricane

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## builtthekid

Tyson wouldve knocked him out clean because hes a **** beast in 
the ring and u have to be able to go punch for punch.

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## hurricanejujitsu

Thats where you are wrong you DO NOT have to go punch for punch... I have fought MMA sence the days of no weight class and I have submitted guys 315lbs, that could have taken my head off if I would stand there and go toe to toe... JuJitsu means Gental Style" meaning take the path of least resistance, to overcome!

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## TheDfromGC

> When was the last time Tyson KO somebody with one hit........?It would be very unlikely even if he did hit somebody in the MMA world that they would just crumble and thats it.....thats funny!!!!!Boxers can not kick anybodys ass in the MMA world just because they are boxers.......they MUST have cross training to do well........if not they will be dominated most of the time.........I dont know if anybody here remembers reading about the fight between Ali vs Inoki......if I remember correctly it went all 12 rounds....Ali won by decision....he did not KO Inoki........and to top all this off Inoki was not even allowed to take Ali down.......so basically he had to fight Ali at Ali's game and it still took all 12 rounds for Ali to only win by decision........they knew that if they allowed Inoki to fight like a true Jui-Jitsu fighter Ali would have been dominated..........also in an interview with Ali he was once asked who would have won in a fight between himself and Bruce Lee and he replied if it was in a boxing ring he would win.....but if it was on the street Bruce would kill me.........the reason I mention ALI is because he was everything Tyson is not "a truly skilled boxer".......Tyson would be mauled by an MMA fighter if it is by kicks,take downs,arm bars,choke outs, strikes while hes on his back.....he would just lose....I hope a fight like this happens some day!!!!!!


as soon as shamrock came within reach, he would knocked silly by tyson. sure we havent seen alot of one punch knockouts by tyson, but the gloves are much much lighter which would mean more speed and more damage for every punch tyson throws. gaurantee tyson lands a solid punch, the other guy is gonna go down or be close to it

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## nickrizz

shamrock wouldnt stand toe to toe with him, that would be stupid

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## hurricanejujitsu

Again I say: Tyson might get that one shot in, He might get his arm broken! We will all just have to bet if the contract ever gets signed... Until then we can argue till we are blue in the face.... And we are all correct... Tyson if he lands, Shamrock if not!
If I we to bet, Id go with the odds, Odds are (one shot vs. hundreds of teqniques)
SHAMROCK! - altho I would love to see Tyson take someboys head off with NHB gloves...lol

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## sp9

I'd much rather see Bas Rutten come out of retirement and put his 17 fights without a loss on the line with Ken who beat him twice in his prime.

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## dynamike

Now thats the most intersting thing Ive read on this thread for quite some time...that would be a great fight....tough to say who would be the winner in that one...really...Im a Bas Fan myself..so i gotta tilt towards him...

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## nickrizz

I know the Tyson and Shamrock fight isnt the fight with best talent but it is the fight that would make the most money, thats why i started the thread

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## lamb88ert

*lets be serious*, Mike tyson would get raped by ken shamrock in the octagon, straight up....Especially now, bein that mikes training went to **** as you can tell by his current fights and couldnt endure the physical demands in the ring.....its really the fact aside from tysons bar fights, an experienced grappler and martial arts master would dominate tyson, i wrestled growing up and all through highschool ...just that has given me numerous advantages in a fight. Could you imagine shamrock twistin mike like a pretzel on the ground? Yes mike can punch like a mofo but shamrock would strike low and not even think about gettin caught by one of those uppercuts....

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## hurricanejujitsu

Look, I dont disagree that Shamrock has more wepons and would likely win...
That being said, DONT UNDERESTIMATE THE SHEAR EXPLOSIVNESS AND POWER OF MIKE. ken would have to take him down. Anyway we have been through this! 
I wanna see Bass or even Bart Vail rematches,,, Did you see Ken get knockd out by Barts roundhouse kick combo? Face down cold! lol

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## nickrizz

please dont hijac the thread everybody......

i was talking about both of them in their prime.

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## jonnyblade

In there prime Mike will lose, its easy to take someone down, especially when there not trained for it, you have to remember you only have punching power when you have good footing, on the ground you lose about 75% of your strike, or even if someone gets a hold of you, if Mike can't put his full body weight into his shots then everything he has going for him is gone. In a boxing match Shamrock wouldnt last a minute mind you, but he would just play cat and mouse an pick him off with a single leg, ankle pick or something low, the second he grabs a hold of a leg its over, cause he will lift it up and no power in Tyson now, he will be throwing Gracie punches lol.

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## dymbag

shamrock shoots for the legs ...the rest is easy if your shamrock/no contest

just boxing its definately tyson though wouldnt want him to win

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## billy_ba

i wouldnt want to have tyson in my guard, ouch.

----------


## Gorgoroth_

" My defense is " impregnabal " , my offense is ludacris , I'll beat you and eat your children in da name of allah , i'll throw your oldest son on the ground and stomp on his testicles so you know my pain ! - Mike Tyson

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## TestTubeBaby

i dont understand why everyone thinks grappling is so effective? i mean ive watched mma etc..i jus dont get it..and all these guys saying they wrestled in school and now have advantages in fight situations..until i read here, i didnt even think of grapplers as real fighters to be honest. ive fought tons of grapplers/wrestlers in my time and looked at them as amateurs and as weak..no offense to anyone..not only did i view them as such..i TREATED them as such..NO wrestler/grappler has ever gotten the best of me..maybe i havent fought an experienced grappler/wrestler b4 i sure as hell have beat the **** outta of em. i have a taekwondo, shotokan karate, kickboxing, boxing background and hands down, gotta say tyson in his prime would RAPE shamrock, not even a question. tyson was so quick and powerful in his prime, before shamrock even knew what hit him his face would be crushed. if i had to choose the easier fight between the two, id take my chances w/ an experienced grappler/wrestler over an experienced power hitter/boxer ANY day.

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## Sta11ion

I was in Vegas two weeks.....I bumped into at the palms hotel by accident, anyway I was not paying attention I apoligized when I looked up and got startled for a sec. That tattoo on his face threw me off...he was cool about it said its cool. All I have to say he is probably a little taller then me but the guy was think and wide. I am around 200 but he must of been around 260 for a guy 5 11. He was wide, you dont realize how big someone is until they get close to you. I do know a story about him, when he was divorced with his first wife the actress... he wanted to see her, she ended up going to a hotel and got 2 bodygaurds to stay at the door. ANyway tyson asked them both he wanted to see her they refused, he asked again and they refused again. So he punched one in the head and broke his jaw. That was the lucky one the other had a fracture in his skull the impact when tyson punched him in the head. I know this because I know the guy who did the scat scan on the guy with the fracture. He mentioned something about he was out cold for 10 minutes. Tyson is not someone to take too likely.

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## Gorgoroth_

> i dont understand why everyone thinks grappling is so effective? i mean ive watched mma etc..i jus dont get it..and all these guys saying they wrestled in school and now have advantages in fight situations..until i read here, i didnt even think of grapplers as real fighters to be honest. ive fought tons of grapplers/wrestlers in my time and looked at them as amateurs and as weak..no offense to anyone..not only did i view them as such..i TREATED them as such..NO wrestler/grappler has ever gotten the best of me..maybe i havent fought an experienced grappler/wrestler b4 i sure as hell have beat the **** outta of em. i have a taekwondo, shotokan karate, kickboxing, boxing background and hands down, gotta say tyson in his prime would RAPE shamrock, not even a question. tyson was so quick and powerful in his prime, before shamrock even knew what hit him his face would be crushed. if i had to choose the easier fight between the two, id take my chances w/ an experienced grappler/wrestler over an experienced power hitter/boxer ANY day.


I think its safe to say you haven't faught a real grappler - or even a good highschool wreslter for that matter . Getting punched in the face hurts , getting a joint dislocated is a completely different type of pain - it hurts way worse and the injuries sustained by joint manipulations can easily become permante injuries . When I wreslted I accidently dislocated my friend's knee and hyper-extended it. His leg was never the same . Before I wreslted him he was second in state , after that his wreslting and weight lifting career went in the dumps. 

Tyson in his prime was bad ass , but I think he if was put on the ground he'd be dead , the trick would be getting him on the ground and not getting punched - keep in mind , tyson isn't going to be wearing gloves if he fights shamrock ( presuming its really a fight ) so his punches will be even more devastating than normal .

----------


## jonnyblade

I would have to say Tyson could easily take the any match if the opponent ****s up, I mean I have seen Tank Abbott beat people silly, but I have seen him get beat like a bitch, its a matter of avoiding the punches, alot of these guys in there could probably box a round with a pro fighter, maybe not with Tyson but they should be able to avoid his punches long enough to tackle him, its not easy to hit someone in boxing when there fresh on the defense, you can play chase all day if you want. It could go either way though 1 hard smack from Tyson anyone will go down, one quick shoot from Shamrock and he is done just as easy. The odds are just in Ken's favour because its his sport and not Tysons.

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## TestTubeBaby

i heard a statistic a clean right from tyson is like getting hit by a sledge hammer..literally.

----------


## Jack87

Now that's a good story.... 





> I was in Vegas two weeks.....I bumped into at the palms hotel by accident, anyway I was not paying attention I apoligized when I looked up and got startled for a sec. That tattoo on his face threw me off...he was cool about it said its cool. All I have to say he is probably a little taller then me but the guy was think and wide. I am around 200 but he must of been around 260 for a guy 5 11. He was wide, you dont realize how big someone is until they get close to you. I do know a story about him, when he was divorced with his first wife the actress... he wanted to see her, she ended up going to a hotel and got 2 bodygaurds to stay at the door. ANyway tyson asked them both he wanted to see her they refused, he asked again and they refused again. So he punched one in the head and broke his jaw. That was the lucky one the other had a fracture in his skull the impact when tyson punched him in the head. I know this because I know the guy who did the scat scan on the guy with the fracture. He mentioned something about he was out cold for 10 minutes. Tyson is not someone to take too likely.

----------


## jonnyblade

Yeah Tyson could really do some damage to 2nd rate fighters, if your not the best of the best then you might as well stay home. Imagine the intimidation people would feel when they stepped in the ring against him. It would be hilarious to see how some one reacts to his punches, ie running away lol.

----------


## QuieTSToRM33

Im gonna have to go with Shamrock .... Ken Shamrock would put a hurting on Tyson ... especially since Tyson isnt the same guy he was 10 years ago

----------


## Gorgoroth_

Guys.. guys... we all know that Kimbo could beat both of them with his toes... yes , his toes...

----------


## Cuttup

Tyson would kill him now and especially in his prime!!!

----------


## realmxofxnoise

> *lets be serious*, Mike tyson would get raped by ken shamrock in the octagon, straight up....Especially now, bein that mikes training went to **** as you can tell by his current fights and couldnt endure the physical demands in the ring.....its really the fact aside from tysons bar fights, an experienced grappler and martial arts master would dominate tyson, i wrestled growing up and all through highschool ...just that has given me numerous advantages in a fight. Could you imagine shamrock twistin mike like a pretzel on the ground? Yes mike can punch like a mofo but shamrock would strike low and not even think about gettin caught by one of those uppercuts....


Yeah, it's hard to say. Mike is definitely pound for pound the hardest puncher in the world. He would have to cardio himself to death though - this isn't no three minute round ****, but UFC is closer. If it was Pride, he better be ready with his cardio. However, I would think Ken would be smart enough to take him to the ground. Don't want to stand toe to toe with Mike when boxing isn't your specialty. Bas even said the same thing, heh.

- Nick

----------


## realmxofxnoise

> Tyson would kill him now and especially in his prime!!!


:- ) I just wanted to say I love the avatar man! KERR!!!!!!! God **** I ****in' love that guy!

- Nick

----------


## ONaMission

You guys are reading too much into this. ken has midget arms, tyson would lay one of those monstrous uppercuts on him before shamrock could shoot in on him, and it would be over. Ken is still recovering from the lumps Tito put on him, isnt he? The only way tyson loses this one is if his dumbass trips over his own feet, falls down, and Ken gets full mount before tyson's brain catches up to the action.

----------


## groverman1

Easy Shamrock shoots, takes it to the ground and heel hook or knee bar. Done deal.

----------


## scorp

I will put my money on Kenny.

----------


## Bouncer1982

Tyson isn't just a boxer, he has been street fighting for years, so my money would have to be on Tyson

----------


## JDawg1536

> Easy Shamrock shoots, takes it to the ground and heel hook or knee bar. Done deal.


lol, I think you guys are taking "shooting in on tyson", a little too lightly. You put your head down and charge toward him, he will have thrown at least 2 uppercuts before you make contact with him. If you are still awake and still have a majority of your teeth, he is not a small guy you can dominate on the ground. He is much stronger than shamrock. And I dont think any fighter in the world would want tyson in his guard, thats just asking to get fvcked up. I wouldnt put money on either one, too close to call.

----------


## Doc Slin

Tyson would ****ing drop Shamrock ass!

----------


## Slick Arrado

LOL at those who said Abbot hits harder. I seriously doubt that, as Tyson has natural power and perfected technique. I don't know who would win, but I bet it'd be a great fight(while it lasted). :spudniklu

----------


## dingobite

Tyson he doesnt have to lean into shamrock, he doesnt need shamrock holding his chin for him and hes definatly big enough to block with half his body at a time or even have hopes his blows will be strong enough to do little more than wipe his own ass crack with.

----------


## catabolic kid

Shamrock has no chance. He would be scared to get close to tyson, he would hesitate. Remember, tyson wouldnt even have to connect to knock ken out. This is an interesting scenario but it is not even clsoe...especially when you talk about IRON MIKE in his prime.

----------


## BROTHERHOOD

Im fluent in both Muy Thai and BJJ and I can tell you Shamrock has a distinct advantage in this fight. I would fight a boxer ANY day in a street fight and take them to the ground immediately, even though im a boxer myself. Its just so easy because they have little to no training in ground fighting.

Now we are dealing with Tyson...only god knows what would happen if he landed something clean on Ken. But I dont think that would happen.

----------


## hobbitlifter

Tyson in a fist to fist. Shamerock would kill him if Tyson met face to mat, Shamrock's grapples are amazing.

My money would definitely be on KEN SHAMEROCK!!!

----------


## frogg

does anyone remember what mike tyson did to mitch blood green in a streetfight bout 10-12years ago in nyc?

----------


## 1819

i dont want to get into a long debate about this cause everone has their own opinion and everyone makes alot of good points but...i happen to promote fights for a living, and knowing just about all the boxers you can think of and many ufc and cage guys, i can tell you this. there is not one cage fighter or ufc guy in the world that can take a punch from a heavyweight. im not saying that the're not tough. im not saying that they are not unbelievable athletes. they are. im just stating fact. i also keep hearing the same thing from the ufc side. everyone seems to think its all over if you can get a boxer to the ground. you really think tyson or moorer or any of those guys have never been in a street fight. you think they cant fight on the ground? come on. anyway its just my opinion.

----------


## hurricanejujitsu

Im just getting back to the fourm for the first time in a few months, but this thread and question already exsists.... Do a search.

----------


## RockSolid

tyson would win in a boxing match, otherwise Shamrock would win it would be a close call, truly depends. tysons hands are like bricks, if it lands on Shamrock hes in trouble,,,,i would have loved to see that match

----------


## hurricanejujitsu

Agreed, In his own disipline each has the advantage!

----------


## 100m champ

Mike Tyson Would Catch This Man And Knock Him Out.. Even If He Clinched Tyson, Tyson Would Fight Out With Argresition And Then Deck This Mans Lights Out.

----------


## MMA

unfortunately fighting out of a clinch against a man with elite wrestling/jiu jitsu skills with "aggression" just doesn't have a good track record.

tyson does have achance of catching him on the way in, but he's not as fast as he used to be.

fghting a good grappler is like fighting...well, it's like fighting mike tyson. if the guy gets in just once he can finish you. and it's a lot easier for a grappler to get in with a low shoot.

all the grapller has to do is survive long enough to get even 1 clinch, and it's over.

some elite strikers like cro cop have developed elite takedown defense. if tyson trained properly, he could probably do the same. but if he won't trrain properly for his own sport, what are the odds he'll suddenly develop the focus to train a whole new game?

----------


## FRANK WHITE

> Cyto - your competley wrong, on pretty well EVERYTHING you said
> 
> yeah, athletes have an attitude - and why not? the people around them coaches, press, friends just hype them up ALL the time, of course there gonna have attitudes
> 
> Boxing training is MUCH harder than MMA training, as admitted by tito ortiz himself, your forgetting, both these men are skilled, it's all about desire - and i'd like to believe tyson would win


 I agree with this statement. You talk like MMA guys are the baddest on the planet. Shamrock would be lucky not to get killed, much less not beaten by Tyson. Liddell is a striker with average ground skills and he mostly KO's all the so called take down guys, I.E. Tito.

----------


## FRANK WHITE

[QUOTE=palme]So true, boxers hands are so irretating! Always in your face (no phun), i hate boxers, ill take on a judoka anyday.

Tyson would slaughter shamrock, it wouldnt even be funny to watch.

Thank You!

----------


## Tyson2481

Bottom line guys if it were boxing rules Tyson would demolish Shamrock if it went to the ground shamrock would have the edge. After seeing shamrock get his @ss kicked by some unknown this weekend Tyson would KO with one MAYBE 2 punches..

----------


## MMA

> I agree with this statement. You talk like MMA guys are the baddest on the planet. Shamrock would be lucky not to get killed, much less not beaten by Tyson. Liddell is a striker with average ground skills and he mostly KO's all the so called take down guys, I.E. Tito.



this statement displays a real lack of understanding about how the fight game works.

lidell's punching is not mearly as good as any elite boxers. but the only reason he has the ability to even throw his punches is because he is a former collegiate wrestler with outstanding takedown defense. and his ground skills aren't so much "average" as highly specialized - he has extensively trained escapes, and has the ability to get back to his feet against almost any grappler. this is hard to do, and lidell is probably as good at it as anyone on the planet.

someone without lidells great complementary skills would not have the opportunity to use his punching skills effectively.

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## MMA

> Bottom line guys if it were boxing rules Tyson would demolish Shamrock if it went to the ground shamrock would have the edge. After seeing shamrock get his @ss kicked by some unknown this weekend Tyson would KO with one MAYBE 2 punches..


obviously tyson spanks non boxers in a boxing match. read the first post, this question is about wh wins an MMA matc. and if it went to the ground, shamrock would have more than an edge, more like total dominance.

and yes, tyson could probably KO shamrock with 2 punches....but there is an excellent chance he wouldn't have the chance to land those 2 punches.

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## MMA

> I agree with this statement. You talk like MMA guys are the baddest on the planet. Shamrock would be lucky not to get killed, much less not beaten by Tyson. Liddell is a striker with average ground skills and he mostly KO's all the so called take down guys, I.E. Tito.


we talk like MMA fighters are the baddest on the planet because they are. tyson isn't even a top 20 boxer anymore, nevermind him being able to dominate a sport he never trained in.

MMA fighters do tend to wreck their opponents by MMA rules (ane no rules). if there was some form of training that was better, we would be doing it.

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## Box This*

Ok lets face it tyson was one of the greatest heavy wieghts ever and thats if fact its actualy on paper so his record shows it...but i wil repeat tyson WAS* one of the greatest heavy wieghts and probably in my eyes since im 28 hes probably the best heavey wieght i have ever seen and the most exciting boxer i have ever seen and aggressive...so why dont we just put wieghts out of it and lets say Tyson v Silva :P 

Lol what do u guys think of that for a fight

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## FRANK WHITE

> we talk like MMA fighters are the baddest on the planet because they are. tyson isn't even a top 20 boxer anymore, nevermind him being able to dominate a sport he never trained in.
> 
> MMA fighters do tend to wreck their opponents by MMA rules (ane no rules). if there was some form of training that was better, we would be doing it.


 If they were the baddest on the planet they would switch to boxing and make the big dollars. For example, who's gonna be better, an elite MMA guy who switches to boxing or an elite boxer who switches to MMA. Don't you think the MMA guys would go were the money is if they could. The problem is they can't because they have to rely on take down techniques in order not to get killed by a puncher. Thats because they have less talent than pro boxers, period. Baddest on the planet is not even funny its so far off, entertaining yes. And don't say I don't understand the sport. I know a lot more than you could imagine.

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## nj123

i dont think the mma guys would go to boxing for the money, if that was true im sure shamrock would still be a wrestler

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## soo2bhuge

> If they were the baddest on the planet they would switch to boxing and make the big dollars. For example, who's gonna be better, an elite MMA guy who switches to boxing or an elite boxer who switches to MMA. Don't you think the MMA guys would go were the money is if they could. The problem is they can't because they have to rely on take down techniques in order not to get killed by a puncher. Thats because they have less talent than pro boxers, period. Baddest on the planet is not even funny its so far off, entertaining yes. And don't say I don't understand the sport. I know a lot more than you could imagine.


don't u think that a well-rounded fighter (one that knows submissions, takedowns, and others) would be a better fighter than one who just boxes? 

i didn't read all of the posts, but r u guys discussing matchups between mma guys and boxers on the street or in a ring with rules? 

if mma fought a boxer in the ring under boxing rules, he'd lose. bottom line! unless he was previously a boxer and knows how to take punches, cause part of the boxer's training (and mma for that matter) is to learn how to take punches. the difference is that boxers do it on a larger scale (more punches, more often). 
if this fight were to happen under mma rules, i'm sure that a good mma guy would take the fight to the ground and there's no contest that he would beat any boxer, not just tyson. 
if this was a street fight, well...then u never know and u never will unless tyson and shamrock duke it out on the street.

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## yannick32

Why, i love Shamrock and Tyson but there time is up, its time for the young guys to shine now,

Ken needs to rethink is fighting career cause since 2002 he didnt do much of an impact on the MMA world.

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## MMA

> If they were the baddest on the planet they would switch to boxing and make the big dollars. For example, who's gonna be better, an elite MMA guy who switches to boxing or an elite boxer who switches to MMA. Don't you think the MMA guys would go were the money is if they could. The problem is they can't because they have to rely on take down techniques in order not to get killed by a puncher. Thats because they have less talent than pro boxers, period. Baddest on the planet is not even funny its so far off, entertaining yes. And don't say I don't understand the sport. I know a lot more than you could imagine.


again, a complete lack of understanding about how the fight game works. a world class wrestler that becomes an MMA champion can't suddenly switch to boxing, not be able to use 98% of his skills, and expect to have success. it's silly for you to even suggest that.

and they use takedowns to neutralize elite punchers because it's good strategy for their sport.

it's quite possible that boxing has attracted more talented athletes because it has more money. but we're not asking who is the more talented athete, we're asking whose training will allow him to beat the other guy in an MMA rules fight (or a no rules fight).

modern MMA training gives you a HUGE advantage over boxers (or any other 1 dimensonal fighter for that matter). they have the ablity to neutralize almost all of a boxers skills as soon as they clinch. an MMA trained fighter would beat a boxer 5 times more talented than he is, because of how deadly efficient his skills are.

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## soo2bhuge

> again, a complete lack of understanding about how the fight game works. a world class wrestler that becomes an MMA champion can't suddenly switch to boxing, not be able to use 98% of his skills, and expect to have success. it's silly for you to even suggest that.
> 
> and they use takedowns to neutralize elite punchers because it's good strategy for their sport.
> 
> it's quite possible that boxing has attracted more talented athletes because it has more money. but we're not asking who is the more talented athete, we're asking whose training will allow him to beat the other guy in an MMA rules fight (or a no rules fight).
> 
> modern MMA training gives you a HUGE advantage over boxers (or any other 1 dimensonal fighter for that matter). they have the ablity to neutralize almost all of a boxers skills as soon as they clinch. an MMA trained fighter would beat a boxer 5 times more talented than he is, because of how deadly efficient his skills are.


that's what i was trying to say, but i think u did a better job.  :LOL:

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## craneboy

i think if mike worked on sprawling he would win. i would pay to see this fight. could you amagine tyson hittin someone with mma fight gloves on? OUCH!!! i think he would knock shamrocks dick in the dirt!

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## MMA

> i think if mike worked on sprawling he would win. i would pay to see this fight. could you amagine tyson hittin someone with mma fight gloves on? OUCH!!! i think he would knock shamrocks dick in the dirt!


that was one of the more intelligent posts on this thread. tyson stands little chance with his present skills, but if he actually TRAINED for an MMA fight (and trained properly) he would have a fighting chance. i think cro cop (an elite kickboxer) only had 6 months of training in takedown defense before he has effective enough to "hang" with elite MMA fighters. after a couple of years of MMA, he is a contender. tyson could possibly do the same thing.

elite athletes from other styles have "converted" with great success, notably wrestlers. what people fail to mention is that even elite wretlers that don't crosstrain properly tend to get submitted a lot.

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## catabolic kid

Well, Ken never had lightning quick takedowns. Mike Tyson is so much more talented than ken shamrock...if the fight ever happened it would probaly last a few seconds. It would not go to the ground. The level of talent in mma is so much lower than that of boxing..especially when ken was in his prime.

The only mma guy that would stand a chance is couture-but this is still unlikely.

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## FRANK WHITE

> Well, Ken never had lightning quick takedowns. Mike Tyson is so much more talented than ken shamrock...if the fight ever happened it would probaly last a few seconds. It would not go to the ground. The level of talent in mma is so much lower than that of boxing..especially when ken was in his prime.
> 
> The only mma guy that would stand a chance is couture-but this is still unlikely.


 Thank You Catabolic. You just don't or won't get it will you Max Rep. Catabolic said it well, the talent gap is so wide between elite boxers and MMA fighters that there won't be any chance of a takedown or lock or whatever the hell you wan't to call it. Liddell, who is my favorite MMA fighter, Franklin, Shamrock, Tito, etc. would all be demolished in a less than thirty seconds by Tyson or any other elite heavyweight. The second they tried to come in they would either get there jaw broke, there ribs broke, or there head taken clean off, period. If you care about MMA fighters you better hope they never fight an elite boxer, because theres a good chance they would be seriously hurt.

I personally studied Jeet Kune do for over five years and have watched a few fighters previously from MMA, Jui Jitsu, etc, take on pro boxers with the same results every time. The got knocked out or taken out when they tried to come in. You don't understand the speed in which a pro boxer throws a punch until you see it in person. If someone like Tyson hit Shamrock even in the back he'd be out because his ribs would be busted, especially with MMA no gloves. You need to go watch some world class boxing matches and quit listening to your Jui jitsu intsructor. I don't care if its the Gracies themselves.

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## MMA

> Thank You Catabolic. You just don't or won't get it will you Max Rep. Catabolic said it well, the talent gap is so wide between elite boxers and MMA fighters that there won't be any chance of a takedown or lock or whatever the hell you wan't to call it. Liddell, who is my favorite MMA fighter, Franklin, Shamrock, Tito, etc. would all be demolished in a less than thirty seconds by Tyson or any other elite heavyweight. The second they tried to come in they would either get there jaw broke, there ribs broke, or there head taken clean off, period. If you care about MMA fighters you better hope they never fight an elite boxer, because theres a good chance they would be seriously hurt.
> 
> I personally studied Jeet Kune do for over five years and have watched a few fighters previously from MMA, Jui Jitsu, etc, take on pro boxers with the same results every time. The got knocked out or taken out when they tried to come in. You don't understand the speed in which a pro boxer throws a punch until you see it in person. If someone like Tyson hit Shamrock even in the back he'd be out because his ribs would be busted, especially with MMA no gloves. You need to go watch some world class boxing matches and quit listening to your Jui jitsu intsructor. I don't care if its the Gracies themselves.


i was an amateur boxer for several years, and won my local golden gloves. i never boxed pro, but did regularly spar pros in the gym. i never sparred anyone the level of tyson, but i did spar some guys with good records and have a sound understanding of the capabilities of an elite pro.

i DID fight pro in MMA and i have a sound understanding of what they're capable of too.

you don't realize how hard it is to keep an elite grappler off of you. tyson is a dangerous fighter, but the deck is just too stacked in favor of the well rounded fighter.

shamrock isn't the best, but tyson has only a punchers chance against the top 50 fighters in MMA. or the top 20 heavyweights in boxing. he's not a superman.

renzo DID take down ex-IBF cruiserweight champion James Warring and beat him. he came in with a low single about 2 feet of the ground, way lower than tyson has ever trained to throw an uppercut. warring was quick on his feet and backpedaled, but renzo made amazing extension and still caught his lead ankle. warring didn't even get a chance to land a single punch.

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## MMA

in addition to specialized grappling attacks - even tyson averages at least 10-15 clinches before a knockout. without a referee to break the action, he would be taken down and submitted the FIRST time this happened against anyone with real grappling skills.

and don't think that a boxers stand up is SO much better than a martial artists that he wouldn't last long enough to clinch even once.

the "white buffalo" that clowned tyson for a few rounds has been competing in K1 and has been repeatedly spanked.

ray mercer got knocked out much faster in K1 than he did by world champion vitali klitchko. 

klitchko himself was knocked out by a kickboxer when he tried to compete in kickboxing in his 20s.

kickboxers and martial artists used to suck compared to boxers, but they have been SERIOUSLY upgrading their game for a long time now.

martial artists no longer use that $hittty PKA style kickboxing, mixing $hitty kicking technique with even $hittier punching technique. in holland, the kickboxers have synthesized the best punching skills from boxing with the best MT techniques straight from thailand.

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## FRANK WHITE

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. You made some good points that made me rethink some things, a little, however.

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## MMA

> Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. You made some good points that made me rethink some things, a little, however.


well said. we shall respectfully disagree

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## novastepp

It's A Fight Anything Goes...Both Would Leave (put lightly) Wounded...It's Not Boxing So You'd Really Get To See Tyson Snap, and Shamrock Would Be Right At Home...Still It's A Fight Where The Only Rule Is...HURT THE OTHER GUY BEFORE HE HURTS YOU...it would be craziness

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## MMA

it would be a short fight either way...either shamrock would get the takedown and finish him, or tyson would catch him solid coming in, and it would be all over.

an MMA tactical note - your game plan varies based on the strengths on the weaknesses of your opponent. you'll often see ken go toe to toe with his opponents, and it's obvious tyson would knock him out quickly if he did that. ken knows that as well as we do, and only slugs it out with guys he thinks he can beat that way.

shamrock also doesn't always shoot frequently against other MMA fighters, as it can often be easily countered by guys trained to stop double and single leg takedowns. fighters who have never trained to defend double leg takedowns are notoriously vunerable to them. shooting at someone's legs is also a great defense to people moving in aggressively with punches to your head - the shoot involves changing levels as you go in, so you tend to come in under people punching at your head.

shamrock would not even attempt to slug it out with tyson, he would play on the outside and try to set up a shot for a double or single leg takedown the moment tyson moved in.

if he did get caught in punching range, another thing modern MMA fighters do against good punchers is CM defense - you basicly just completely cover up with your arms, not even attempting to be in punching position with either one, and try to close the distance as quickly as possible and wrap the guy up. it doesn't take long to do this, and it's hard to land a knockout shot on someone doing this. tyson has a devestating body shot, and this is a pretty good counter to this, but it's still often a very diificult tactic for strikers to deal with. it sounds stupid but i've dealt with it a lot and it's really is hard to counter.

tyson is a very dangerous fighter, with elite skills and tremendous speed and power, and he is quite capable of winning this fight with a thunderous knockout the first time they make contact - it's just not very likely. the odds really do favor the fighter with the broader skills just too much. tyson IS an amazingly talentd athlete more talented than ken ever thought of being, but there is just too much of a technical skill deficit

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## catabolic kid

Shamrock would not have a chance, bottom line.

If any mma fighter could defeat tyson, it would have to be one with explosive takedowns...shamrocks takedowns are weak...get a guy with explosive takedowns like *KERR*  or maybe Couture.

Yes, Shamrock would win easily on the ground vs tyson...but I dont think he has the speed to take him down...tyson only needs a split second and he will knock him out with a serious combination.

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## MMA

> Shamrock would not have a chance, bottom line.
> 
> If any mma fighter could defeat tyson, it would have to be one with explosive takedowns...shamrocks takedowns are weak...get a guy with explosive takedowns like *KERR*  or maybe Couture.
> 
> Yes, Shamrock would win easily on the ground vs tyson...but I dont think he has the speed to take him down...tyson only needs a split second and he will knock him out with a serious combination.


i see your point, and shamrock doesn't have as good a takedown game as the elite wrestlers. but you don't NEED elite takedown skills against guys who have never once sparred with, or trained to defend against grapplers. royce took down professional fighters with ease (including ex world cruiserweight champ art jimmerson) and jiu jitsu guys are known for having the $hittiest takedowns in grappling (they spend all their time training ground). in fact, ken easily took down royce wenever they fought.

lessons of UFC 1 - a guy who spends 20 years defending punches and kicks and no days defending double leg takedowns has a ****ty double leg takedown defense. the same applies to a guy who does 20 years of defending just punches.

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## catabolic kid

> i see your point, and shamrock doesn't have as good a takedown game as the elite wrestlers. but you don't NEED elite takedown skills against guys who have never once sparred with, or trained to defend against grapplers. royce took down professional fighters with ease (including ex world cruiserweight champ art jimmerson) and jiu jitsu guys are known for having the $hittiest takedowns in grappling (they spend all their time training ground). in fact, ken easily took down royce wenever they fought.
> 
> lessons of UFC 1 - a guy who spends 20 years defending punches and kicks and no days defending double leg takedowns has a ****ty double leg takedown defense. the same applies to a guy who does 20 years of defending just punches.


The above is all generalizations...it is true probably 95% of the time...I cant argue with that...but we are talking about Mike Tyson.

Can you imagine how apprehensive shamrock would be when trying to close the distance on tyson.
A well rounded fighter will always beat a good boxer/striker...Tyson is more than a good boxer/stiker, he is devastating and he would knock ken out cold without even connecting.

You simply cannot compare Tyson to other strikers...he has the most punching power of any human ever.

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## MMA

> The above is all generalizations...it is true probably 95% of the time...I cant argue with that...but we are talking about Mike Tyson.
> 
> Can you imagine how apprehensive shamrock would be when trying to close the distance on tyson.
> A well rounded fighter will always beat a good boxer/striker...Tyson is more than a good boxer/stiker, he is devastating and he would knock ken out cold without even connecting.
> 
> You simply cannot compare Tyson to other strikers...he has the most punching power of any human ever.



you certainly can. you can compare him to the guys that have taken his punches, and then knocked him on his ass or beaten the hell out of him - holyfield, lewis, douglas, willaims

"Tyson is more than a good boxer/stiker, he is devastating and he would knock ken out cold without even connecting."

this is the kind of irrational tyson worship i'm to educate people about. NOBODY can knock you out " without even connecting", not tyson, not some crazy kung fu master, nobody.

he was incredibly dominant in a weak era, and still pretty **** dangerous even after prison. but he was repeatedly beaten by the top fighters of his era (and some not so top). go to the boxing forums and ask where he'll be ranked in the hall of fame. you'll be surprised at howmany rank higher, and in how many categories.

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## catabolic kid

You cannot compare Tyson to other strikers in the MMA world.
You say he was good when boxing was a weak division...Shamrock was dominant when the ufc first began...it was really weak...really was not even MMA.

Here is an analogy that might help you realize the difference in talent between MMA and boxing (especially during KENs era): SHAMROCK is to TYSON as HIGHSCHOOL FOOTBALL is to THE NFL.

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## catabolic kid

> in addition to specialized grappling attacks - even tyson averages at least 10-15 clinches before a knockout. without a referee to break the action, he would be taken down and submitted the FIRST time this happened against anyone with real grappling skills.
> and don't think that a boxers stand up is SO much better than a martial artists that he wouldn't last long enough to clinch even once.
> 
> the "white buffalo" that clowned tyson for a few rounds has been competing in K1 and has been repeatedly spanked.
> 
> ray mercer got knocked out much faster in K1 than he did by world champion vitali klitchko. 
> 
> klitchko himself was knocked out by a kickboxer when he tried to compete in kickboxing in his 20s.
> 
> ...


Yes, in a boxing ring...do you really think he would do this is mma.

Also, Has ken ever been caught with a punch beore taking his opponent to the ground? Im sure he has. But was it from a person as powerful as MIKE TYSON...hell no!

This fight comes down to this: the probability of tyson landing one punch on a guy with poor stand up defense (as compared to a boxer) VS the probability of shamrock (who is not great at takedowns) shooting in on tyson without getting caught.

In other words, Tysons punching ability vs kens takedown ability. ( Remember, tyson only needs one punch(.5 or less seconds) on a guy who cannot defend punches well).

SHAMROCK DOES NOT STAND A CHANCE!!!!!

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## MTLMAN

Talking from exp-i did two Karathe styles when i was a teenager and i have been bosing for three years now- my boxing training partner mixes between between boxing and take ondaoe, when he hooks (on the tarhet gloves im using) i feel the pain in my shoulders and i got a strong body, a one hook or upper cut with the mma gloves, lights out for any mma fighter , boxers rely on speed and strenth plus a boxer can go 10 rounds gettting all kind of punishsment in the face and ribs the most dangerous areas of the body and they know how to fully abosrb the shock.
you try to fight any boxer you will be on the floor befor eu even blink with all the fake punches they throw

but again it the fighter and not the martial art now if it was those three guys in their primes : Tyson-ken and bas rutten

Tyson would eat ken alive cause ken likes to go body to body 
Tyson Vs Bas thats a tough game cause bas got nice kicks but still Tyson would win because he is used to get it in the head

now for the clinsh and floor holding, a boxer clinhes to save his energy (when its pure boxing), while in MMA to submit, i can only see tyson runnign in circles and pucnhing all what he needs is 1 pucnh to the jaw to finish ken

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## MMA

> Yes, in a boxing ring...do you really think he would do this is mma.
> 
> Also, Has ken ever been caught with a punch beore taking his opponent to the ground? Im sure he has. But was it from a person as powerful as MIKE TYSON...hell no!
> 
> This fight comes down to this: the probability of tyson landing one punch on a guy with poor stand up defense (as compared to a boxer) VS the probability of shamrock (who is not great at takedowns) shooting in on tyson without getting caught.
> 
> In other words, Tysons punching ability vs kens takedown ability. ( Remember, tyson only needs one punch(.5 or less seconds) on a guy who cannot defend punches well).
> 
> SHAMROCK DOES NOT STAND A CHANCE!!!!!


yes tyson can put anyone to sleep with a single punch. but even tho his punches CAN put you to sleep, the fact is that they DON'T knock people out about 98% of the time. what is he averaging now, about 5 rounds of constant punching before he gets a knockout? thats a long time to keep a grappler of you. tyson is usually clinched numerous times before he gets a knockout (assuming he isn't etting knocked out himself). that is against guys with ZERO grappling ability, or even intending to grapple.

i realize that shamrocks standup isn't as good as the boxers tyson is fighting, but it really doesn't have to be. it's genuinely hard to land a knock out blow on a trained fighter before he gets the chance to grab you even once.

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## MMA

> Talking from exp-i did two Karathe styles when i was a teenager and i have been bosing for three years now- my boxing training partner mixes between between boxing and take ondaoe, when he hooks (on the tarhet gloves im using) i feel the pain in my shoulders and i got a strong body, a one hook or upper cut with the mma gloves, lights out for any mma fighter , boxers rely on speed and strenth plus a boxer can go 10 rounds gettting all kind of punishsment in the face and ribs the most dangerous areas of the body and they know how to fully abosrb the shock.
> you try to fight any boxer you will be on the floor befor eu even blink with all the fake punches they throw


i boxed longer than you did before getting invloved in MMA, i'm quite aware of what boxers are capable of. my opinion is based off of a lot of sparring and competition in both sports




> but again it the fighter and not the martial art now if it was those three guys in their primes : Tyson-ken and bas rutten
> 
> Tyson would eat ken alive cause ken likes to go body to body


this displays a profound lack of understanding about what MMA is all about. MMA is about using your strongest game against your opponents weaknesses. are you seriously suggesting that because shamrock chose to slug it out against guys with strong grappling skills, that he will think slugging it out with tyson is a good idea? that ain't they way it works, no MMA fighter "likes to go body to body" with tyson when they know how painfully vulnerable he is to grappling.




> Tyson Vs Bas thats a tough game cause bas got nice kicks but still Tyson would win because he is used to get it in the head
> 
> now for the clinsh and floor holding, a boxer clinhes to save his energy (when its pure boxing), while in MMA to submit, i can only see tyson runnign in circles and pucnhing all what he needs is 1 pucnh to the jaw to finish ken


you can see that all you want, but you obviously haven't seen UFC 1-10. that just isn't what as happened with one dimensional fighters.

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## Cyto78

Un ****ing believable this thread is.I'm just gonna post this one time and let it be because we obviously have some youngsters on here that that know little about fighting and will argue until their blue in the face.You all know who you are....it takes 1 demensional minds to believe that a 1 demensional fighter would be able to dominate a multi-demensional fighter. An MMA fighters skill is so far beyond that of your "1" demensional fighter aka BOXER..... its a joke that this thread has went on this long......Boxing is a great sport and entertaining to watch and if you know how to box than you are ahead of most in the fighting game......but if you know how to do a little bit of everthing and are world class at it you will destroy a just boxer.....unless of course you make a mistake and get hit just as Randy did by Chuck.....I put my money on Randy that the 3rd go around with Chuck he will not get ko'ed and take it to Chuck like he did in their first fight....he will go back to what he does best and ground and pound on the striker.....and this is against somebody that is world class at defending against a fighter like Couture........Tysons only hope would be to get that one shot in.....let me repeat Tysons only "hope" would be to get that one shot that may or may not KO Ken or any other MMA fighter for that matter....if he did not I would feel much more sorry for him than I have in his most recent fights...no need to explain the reasoning behind this because those on here that are knowledgeable about fighting know exactly what I mean by saying this.Definately youngsters arguing that boxers would dominate.....  :Afro:  .........hey young bucks learn all the boxing you can learn train hard get good...then go learn all the grappling you can learn ...train hard...then train even harder..... get good....then you will dominate all your little boxing buddys......now if you realy want to become something speacial learn other MMA skills...Chicken is pretty good by itself but it is alot better when you ad maybe some green beans..maybe a baked patato.....why not a big glass of milk and for desert some watermellon........this applys to fighting as well..the more you know the better the fighter,,,figure I better explain that being you young bucks are still learning and would not understand the chicken anoligy.....I think I just made myself hungry.....later bros

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## MMA

boxing is a very effective fighting art, i use it in MMA all the time. but if you don't have a complete game, and have never trained to defend against a grappler, you are at a SERIOUS disadvantage against someone who IS a complete fighter. he can really exploit all your weaknesses. your punches won't mean much if you have very little opportunity to use them. yeah, tyson could end it if he caught him solid coming in. this is called a "punchers chance", and its just not good odds

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## TestTubeBaby

ur opinion is WAY too biased to give a rational retort

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## craneboy

> boxing is a very effective fighting art, i use it in MMA all the time. but if you don't have a complete game, and have never trained to defend against a grappler, you are at a SERIOUS disadvantage against someone who IS a complete fighter. he can really exploit all your weaknesses. your punches won't mean much if you have very little opportunity to use them. yeah, tyson could end it if he caught him solid coming in. this is called a "punchers chance", and its just not good odds


so you could take Tyson?.............................  :LOL:

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## MMA

> ur opinion is WAY too biased to give a rational retort


biased? i competed for years as an elite amateur in one sport, and then as a pro in the other. why is my opinion biased, because it doesn't agree with yours? my opinion is not biased, simply educated. the fact is that one dimensional strikers have been repeatedly shown to be very vulnerable to attacks by grapplers.

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## MMA

> so you could take Tyson?.............................


did i say i was ken shamrock? thats what we've been discussing. but for the record, tyson would probably lose to the top 20 boxers in the world today, and the top 50 MMA fighters.

in his prime, the list is shorter, but still extensive.

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## jc3

Yeah right


Prime no way! And now, he would lose to quite a few heavyweights and maybe and I do mean maybe, a couple of MMA guys.

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## FRANK WHITE

> Yeah right
> 
> 
> Prime no way! And now, he would lose to quite a few heavyweights and maybe and I do mean maybe, a couple of MMA guys.


 Tyson would not lose to any MMA fighters. Sorry MMA, but your avatar sais who is biased. Of course were talking about an in shape Tyson. The problem is simple, The MMA gloves. Tyson hits extremely hard with normal boxing gloves. Simply put, he would risk killing someone with MMA gloves with every punch. Also, it wouldn't have to be a punch to the face, If a grappler comes in low he could punch him in the back and break his ribs, or back of the head. 

For example, if Tyson was to study MMA instead of boxing, it would take away from his skill level as a boxer in my opinion. Remember, were not talking about someone just starting out but someone who has reached the zenith in his sport. If Liddel can knock out Coutere, who was supposed to be the best in MMA, then what do you think Tyson would do to Liddel. Liddel is my favorite MMA fighter but his goal in every fight is to strike an opponent out, not submit them. If he stood toe to toe with Tyson he would get killed, simple as that. 

Grappling and takedown moves work, I agree with you there, but they won't against someone with the speed and power of an in shape Tyson. Sorry bro, I respect you experience, but I have five tough years of experience with Dan Inosanto and several more with Kent Moyer. The only MMA guys who might stand a chance against a Mike Tyson in his prime fighter would be someone like Bruce Lee. A man with extraordinary speed and power. Someone who could avoid Tyson's shots and return with enough power to do damage themselves. 

To the gentleman who sais everyone is a youngster who believes a one dimensional fighter can't beat a well rounded fighter look up the name Bill Wallace. He won many Marshal arts tourney's with just a right roundhouse kick. And I'm no youngster either.

In Summary, being extraordinary in one technique will win against someone who is simply very good at several technique's and to achieve that extraordinary level one must train those basics over and over. 
 :2bluegrab:  

As we stated earlier, I respect your opinion. We'll simply have to agree to disagree. But its a fun discussion.

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## MMA

> Tyson would not lose to any MMA fighters. Sorry MMA, but your avatar sais who is biased.


so the fact that i have knowledge of the field we're discussing means i'm biased? i have years of MMA training, and even more years of boxing (which i use every time i do MMA), but somehow this makes me unqualified to discuss how a boxer would do in MMA? even tho i was once a boxer starting off in MMA?





> Of course were talking about an in shape Tyson. The problem is simple, The MMA gloves. Tyson hits extremely hard with normal boxing gloves. Simply put, he would risk killing someone with MMA gloves with every punch.


but somehow he has punched mitch green and others bareknuckle on the street without killing them





> Also, it wouldn't have to be a punch to the face, If a grappler comes in low he could punch him in the back and break his ribs, or back of the head.


a boxers power doesn't come from magic, it comes from good body dynamics and good technique. it would be very difficult for a boxer to generate a lot of power striking at some of the awkward angles you describe. if it was really that easy, strikers would be completely dominating MMA. 




> For example, if Tyson was to study MMA instead of boxing, it would take away from his skill level as a boxer in my opinion. Remember, were not talking about someone just starting out but someone who has reached the zenith in his sport. If Liddel can knock out Coutere, who was supposed to be the best in MMA, then what do you think Tyson would do to Liddel. Liddel is my favorite MMA fighter but his goal in every fight is to strike an opponent out, not submit them. If he stood toe to toe with Tyson he would get killed, simple as that.


agreed, which is why he wouldn't even try. read my earlier posts. if you really think a well rounded MMA fighter like liddel would ever attempt to slug with tyson you're out of your mind. the only punches and kicks he would possibly throw would be purely to help set up a takedown attempt. believe me, liddell is a pro fighter, he knows everything you know about tysons capabilities, and can make a game plan accordingly. he is a former collegiate wrestler, his takedowns are quite good, he just doesn't use them often because he is usually the better stiker and goes for the "sprawl and brawl" gameplan. his jiu jitsu is very good as well, and he's quite capable of finishing tyson if he got a hold of him.

[QUOTE=FRANK WHITE] Grappling and takedown moves work, I agree with you there, but they won't against someone with the speed and power of an in shape Tyson. Sorry bro, I respect you experience, but I have five tough years of experience with Dan Inosanto and several more with Kent Moyer. The only MMA guys who might stand a chance against a Mike Tyson in his prime fighter would be someone like Bruce Lee. A man with extraordinary speed and power. Someone who could avoid Tyson's shots and return with enough power to do damage themselves. 


> Tyson would not lose to any MMA fighters. Sorry MMA, but your avatar sais who is biased.



now who's biased? do you really think a 140 pound striker is going to outpunch or kick mike tyson, and knock him out? and you think he has better odds than a grappler who only need s to get a hold of you ONCE to finish you? to get a realistic appreciation of how hard it can be for a striker to stop a good grappler, you might want to read up on how badly bruce lost to judo gene lebell when they sparred. 




> To the gentleman who sais everyone is a youngster who believes a one dimensional fighter can't beat a well rounded fighter look up the name Bill Wallace. He won many Marshal arts tourney's with just a right roundhouse kick. And I'm no youngster either.


please tell me what vale tudo, freestyle of MMA competitions bill wallace won? he was a kickboxing champion, and yes, a great kicker can win a kickboxing championship, the same way a great wrestler can win a wrestling tournament, but these have NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.




> In Summary, being extraordinary in one technique will win against someone who is simply very good at several technique's and to achieve that extraordinary level one must train those basics over and over.


a very valid principle, but there are other principles you're ignoring that are more important in this case. if a fighter has a huge, glaring vulnerability, if he doesn't protect it somehow, he's cooked.




> As we stated earlier, I respect your opinion. We'll simply have to agree to disagree. But its a fun discussion.


classy

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## Cyto78

> so the fact that i have knowledge of the field we're discussing means i'm biased? i have years of MMA training, and even more years of boxing (which i use every time i do MMA), but somehow this makes me unqualified to discuss how a boxer would do in MMA? even tho i was once a boxer starting off in MMA?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but somehow he has punched mitch green and others bareknuckle on the street without killing them
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yo MMA you are right in everything you say.....you will go round and round with these people that believe Tyson would destroy an MMA fighter.You obviously have alot of knowledge of the fight game and a good 98% of the fighting world would agree with what you say...even the boxers themselves would agree that they would be dominated in an MMA event unless they also cross trained for a period of time before.These people seem to think Tyson is a Kodiak Bear or something and with one swipe of his paw is going to break the lions back......there are many fighters in the MMA world who are faster, much more powerful and brutal,and have numerous skills not just one.Bro this debate will probably go on and on for ever but im sure you know there is few in the world that will disagree with what you say.A fight is far from just boxing.Tyson is human people remeber this.Could you even imagine Tyson on one side of the octagon......McCarthy yells let's get it on and Tyson only has his punching ability and nothing else...no defense...nothing!!!!!I've felt kinda sorry for him as of late seeing him get punished like he has but this would be the icing on the cake......it will never happen because he will never attempt it......

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## Glock-19

After watchin Rich Franklin destroy Shamrock 3 weeks ago I would have to still go with Shamrock.  :Smilie: 

No love for an ear eating, tatoo face, woman beating, moron.

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## FRANK WHITE

> Yo MMA you are right in everything you say.....you will go round and round with these people that believe Tyson would destroy an MMA fighter.You obviously have alot of knowledge of the fight game and a good 98% of the fighting world would agree with what you say...even the boxers themselves would agree that they would be dominated in an MMA event unless they also cross trained for a period of time before.These people seem to think Tyson is a Kodiak Bear or something and with one swipe of his paw is going to break the lions back......there are many fighters in the MMA world who are faster, much more powerful and brutal,and have numerous skills not just one.Bro this debate will probably go on and on for ever but im sure you know there is few in the world that will disagree with what you say.A fight is far from just boxing.Tyson is human people remeber this.Could you even imagine Tyson on one side of the octagon......McCarthy yells let's get it on and Tyson only has his punching ability and nothing else...no defense...nothing!!!!!I've felt kinda sorry for him as of late seeing him get punished like he has but this would be the icing on the cake......it will never happen because he will never attempt it......


 First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event? 

Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.

Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about. 

No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included. And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.

I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.

And MMA, the example of Bill Wallace was to show that one technique is all you need to dominate an event, if that technique is by far superior to a group of techniques.

And no, all your other training outside of boxing was not wasted. I think it is very useful to learn as much as you can about every fighting style. Thus I studied Jeet kune do. I just feel that in the afformentioned case of Mike Tyson only a very, very special fighter with extraordinary talent in MMA would be able to handle his speed and power. Thus the Bruce Lee example. 
I'd love to see a fight between Liddel and Tyson though. Just to see if I'm proven correct. It would be really fun to watch. 

I feel it would unfold like this. Liddel would be circling Tyson at a distance looking for an opening to get inside and take the fight to the ground. The problem is Tyson would know this was Liddel's only chance and be ready for such a tactic. And don't you think Tyson would have at least some preperation in how to counter this. Do we really think Tyson would not even look at any MMA fights to know what to expect. When Liddel made his move Tyson would unload a viscous punch somewhere on Liddel which would either knock him down or at least knock him off balance, where Tyson would move close enough to land the bomb which would end the fight. 

 :Owned:

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## Glock-19

> First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event? 
> 
> Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.
> 
> Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about. 
> 
> No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included. And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.
> 
> I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.
> ...


Liddel would take the fight to the ground against tyson? LMFAO Liddel would kick Tyson in the head and watch him drop. Boxers are just to one dimensional. If you cant see that than you have no knowledge of MMA whatsoever. I dont think tyson could beat any MMA heavyweight at MMA. Mabe he might win in a boxing match but not a real fight. The more knowledge you gain on the sport of MMA, the more you will see things for how they really are.

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## 100m champ

ken shamrock is a fag.. MIKE BLASTS HIM WITH ONE OVERHAND AND KEN WILL BE FUC* UP AND DOWN FOR THE COUNT  :1laugh:  STUID KEN

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## FRANK WHITE

> Liddel would take the fight to the ground against tyson? LMFAO Liddel would kick Tyson in the head and watch him drop. Boxers are just to one dimensional. If you cant see that than you have no knowledge of MMA whatsoever. I dont think tyson could beat any MMA heavyweight at MMA. Mabe he might win in a boxing match but not a real fight. The more knowledge you gain on the sport of MMA, the more you will see things for how they really are.


 I've got over ten years knowledge of MMA Bro, what your not understanding is just how fast and skilled an elite boxer is. I agree that if two so called average people(whatever that is) train, one in MMA and the other in boxing, the MMA guy will have an advantage if they train for the same length of time. Again, as previously stated, boxers at the level Mike Tyson once was are so much more talented and skilled than the MMA guys it would be like watching a pro team against a division 2 college team. Thats what your not getting. If liddel tried to kick tyson he would leave himself wide open to getting clocked, and thats what would happen. If Tyson hit liddel anywhere, just knocked him off balance, its over. This would allow Tyson to get in safely and land the bomb. Liddels only chance would be to somewhow get inside and try to submit Tyson. If Liddel could navigate the mine field of bombs, most of which he'd never see, he might,and I say might in a very generous way, have a chance. But I just don't see it happening bro..  :Bbiwin:

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## MMA

> First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event? 
> 
> Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.


you have a good point there, but i'm not arguing that these guys can beat tyson because they're faster or more explosive. i'm simply arguing that it's easier for a skilled MMA fighter to end up in a clinch than it is for a striker to land a knockout punch. everyone remembers the knockout punches tyson lands, but no one remembers the THOUSANDS of punches he has thrown that HAVEN'T knocked people out. even tyson has had far more clinches in his career than knockouts. he has 40 something spectacular knockouts, but how many thousands of punches has he thrown in his career? yes, most MMA fighters won't have the striking skills that tysons opponents have, but their specialized takedown and clinching techniques MORE than make up for it.




> Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about. 
> 
> No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included.


i agree, wrestlers and jiu jitsu guys would be a lot easier, they're as one dimensional in their own way as tyson is in his. but we're talking about an elite MMA fighter here, trained to minimize his exposure to punches and exploit his opponents weaknesses.




> And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.
> 
> I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.
> 
> And MMA, the example of Bill Wallace was to show that one technique is all you need to dominate an event, if that technique is by far superior to a group of techniques.And no, all your other training outside of boxing was not wasted. I think it is very useful to learn as much as you can about every fighting style. Thus I studied Jeet kune do. I just feel that in the afformentioned case of Mike Tyson only a very, very special fighter with extraordinary talent in MMA would be able to handle his speed and power. Thus the Bruce Lee example. 
> I'd love to see a fight between Liddel and Tyson though. Just to see if I'm proven correct. It would be really fun to watch.


i agree with the value of specailizing, but i think you're overstating the case. and MMA fighters actually aren't training more techniques than most other martial artists, they're actually just training a pretty small collection of the MOST effective techiques from other styles - the best takedowns from the best takedown style (wrestling), the best kicks and infighting from the style with the best infighting (muay thai), the best groundfighting from the best groundfighting style (brazilian jiu jitsu), best leg locks from the best leg locking style (sambo), and yes, punches from the best punching style (boxing). and it's no accident we train this way, while there is some variation and specialization between different fighters, this mix has repeatedly been shown to be more efficient than any other. "take what is useful, abandon what is useless" 

if it were possible to just train boxing and knock everybody out before they grab you, there would be a lot of people doing it. but that just ain't the way it is." but tyson is special" - he was special, a great fighter... but he ain't that special, nobody is. i don't even think he ever topped the pound for pound list, even at his peak, there were always guys considered better at other weights. but tyson had a very exciting style, that grabbed the publics imagination, and created a mythology of invincibility. even tho tyson has lost several times now (a couple of times to second rate fighters), this mythology remains entrenched in the minds of many who grew up in the eighties.

go to any of the boxing forums and ask where he ranks as one of the greats. you'd be amazed at how many fighters are ranked ahead of him, and in how many categories. he was special...but not that special. 





> I feel it would unfold like this. Liddel would be circling Tyson at a distance looking for an opening to get inside and take the fight to the ground. The problem is Tyson would know this was Liddel's only chance and be ready for such a tactic. And don't you think Tyson would have at least some preperation in how to counter this. Do we really think Tyson would not even look at any MMA fights to know what to expect. When Liddel made his move Tyson would unload a viscous punch somewhere on Liddel which would either knock him down or at least knock him off balance, where Tyson would move close enough to land the bomb which would end the fight.


i'm sure tyson would know what to expect. but knowing what someones game plan is, and having the tools to stop it are 2 different things. a lot of guys have known what game plan tyson had, but simply lacked the tools to stop it. he simply hasn't got the training in dealing with MMA style attacks and takedown defense to have more than a punchers chance against a top MMA fighter. thats the reality of the situation.

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## MMA

> I've got over ten years knowledge of MMA Bro,


modern MMA hasn't even existed for 10 years. i don't doubt you have a lot of skills and knowledge from JKD, and their theory is very similar, but they never quite achieved what MMA did. matt thornton and the SBG guys are pretty good but they're pretty much following the standard MMA curricilum, not the traditional JKD training of the past 20 years.




> what your not understanding is just how fast and skilled an elite boxer is.


others may not, but i do, and i still don't give tyson more than a punchers chance. i'm not saying he can't win, i'm just saying, odds are, a top MMA guy will be able to grab a leg or get a clinch even once, before tyson lands a knockout shot.




> I agree that if two so called average people(whatever that is) train, one in MMA and the other in boxing, the MMA guy will have an advantage if they train for the same length of time. Again, as previously stated, boxers at the level Mike Tyson once was are so much more talented and skilled than the MMA guys it would be like watching a pro team against a division 2 college team. Thats what your not getting. If liddel tried to kick tyson he would leave himself wide open to getting clocked, and thats what would happen. If Tyson hit liddel anywhere, just knocked him off balance, its over. This would allow Tyson to get in safely and land the bomb. Liddels only chance would be to somewhow get inside and try to submit Tyson. If Liddel could navigate the mine field of bombs, most of which he'd never see, he might,and I say might in a very generous way, have a chance. But I just don't see it happening bro..


i see the argument you're trying to make here, but the fact is, several world class athletes, gold medalists in wrestling and judo, have tried MMA and they have been beaten by the top MMA guys until they cross trained extensively. although wrestling and judo aren't big in the US, they are worldwide Olympic sports, and are much more popular in many countries than boxing. and although they don't have quite as much "big money" behind them as boxing, they had extensive state support from being olympic sports, probably giving at least as much talent development as the dream of big money does for boxers in america. i don't have exact the exact numbers, but the talent pool is comparable.

the gigantic "talent gap" you're talking about simply no longer exists. 12 years ago, you might have been right, but not anymore. khalid ibrahim was at least as dominant as a wrestler a tyson was as a boxer. he absolutely MANHANDLED some of the best wrestlers in the world at the last olympics. for pure, functional, explosive strength, elite wrestlers are FREAKY strong, and he threw them around like ragdolls. he tried to jump into the big leagues without extensive cross training, and he got crushed. it's a different game now.

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## MMA

frank, i disagree with you, but i respect you and your opinion, and i appreciate the fact that you've been keeping things on the level they're on. a lot of guys would have let this degenerate into a name calling contest by now.

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## FRANK WHITE

> frank, i disagree with you, but i respect you and your opinion, and i appreciate the fact that you've been keeping things on the level they're on. a lot of guys would have let this degenerate into a name calling contest by now.


 I appreciate the above comment MMA. I also respect your opinion and especially how you break down everything into individual points and address each one. You do address each point of my view very well in a very thoughtful and intelligent way. And you may be right, although I will not admit that.  :Wink/Grin:  

I definitely agree with you that MMA has come a long ways since the 80's, and it may be possible that the talent gap has closed enough that they have surpassed upper echelon boxers in fighting ability. In theory this should be the case, that is if you believe the principles of JKD, which I think we both do. And yes, I'm associating MMA with JKD because in my opinion they are very similar with the same goal, as you stated, "to use what works and discard the rest in order to make you the best fighter you can."

You know its easy to tell someone who has a backround in martial arts because they know how to control their words just as they do their actions, its easy to see that in you. 

I just can't get over that while studying JKD I saw how Bruce Lee raised the bar of just how effective a few simple techniques can be. The fact that he always stated one must study the basics over and over again I feel will always be valid. Whether or not mastering five or so is more effective than being supremely superior in one is the backbone of my arguement. Do you take away from one skill, the level you can reach, by studying another. It is an interesting question when you really ponder it.

It would be fun though, wouldn't it, to see Liddel and Tyson go at it. It wouldn't last long, sorta like the mongoose and the snake, but you know it wouldn't be boring.

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## MMA

> It would be fun though, wouldn't it, to see Liddel and Tyson go at it. It wouldn't last long, sorta like the mongoose and the snake, but you know it wouldn't be boring.


true enough, either way, it would be over quickly. either liddell get's the clinch/takedown, or tyson catces him solid coming in, and it's all over.

i trained JKD myself back in the day, and if you read Bruce's book, you realize he had the whole MMA gameplan mapped out. unfortunately, his students lost their way after his untimely death, and never took his ideas to their full potential.

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## TestTubeBaby

now who's biased? do you really think a 140 pound striker is going to outpunch or kick mike tyson, and knock him out? and you think he has better odds than a grappler who only need s to get a hold of you ONCE to finish you? to get a realistic appreciation of how hard it can be for a striker to stop a good grappler, you might want to read up on how badly bruce lost to judo gene lebell when they sparred. 

yes, that specific 140 lber would be able to. gene lebell showed him up, because bruce was using grappling techniques. bruce would be in ANYONES face before they could think about it. he was the perfect blend of speed/quickness and power. bruce may not have been AS powerful with his punches as tyson, but they were lethal nonetheless. but bruce's KICKS are some of the NASTIEST things ive ever seen.

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## BOUNCER

> read up on how badly bruce lost to judo gene lebell when they sparred.



Anywhere online I can read about it?. I'm having a debate in my Judo club about strikers-V-Judo players.

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## FRANK WHITE

> true enough, either way, it would be over quickly. either liddell get's the clinch/takedown, or tyson catces him solid coming in, and it's all over.
> 
> i trained JKD myself back in the day, and if you read Bruce's book, you realize he had the whole MMA gameplan mapped out. unfortunately, his students lost their way after his untimely death, and never took his ideas to their full potential.


 Very true. Bruce's goal was basically what the MMA is today. You've got different fighters with different strengths and weaknesses going at each other. Bruce always believed the only way to find out if a technique worked was to try it out on the streets in real life situations. This got him in a little trouble early in his career. 

The idea that Bruce's senior students lost their way is something which Cycleon, myself and others discussed fairly extensively in another thread. A lot of schools, including Dan Inasonto's in L.A. have morphed into concept schools which have become somewhat commercialized. I feel Dan is trying his best, however, to remain as true as possible and remain financially viable, to Bruce's principles.

Liddell vs. Bruce would be a hell of a fight, Bruce by K.O. as would Bruce vs Tyson, Bruce by no mas after Tyson got tired of chasing him around the ring and getting hit in the process. So in this case I would have to go with Bruce. And yes I'm very biased concerning Bruce and his abilities. I feel Bruce was the Mozart of Martial Arts, as Tyson once was in boxing. Both had such extreme physical talent that they must be analyzed individually, as they fit into only their own catagory, far above all others.

The Gene Lebell thing was more of a publicity stunt than anything else. I've read before that it was staged because If I'm correct Labell was the star at the time and he had to look good. Plus he was trying to promote the judo, grappling style. I definitely know that Labell stated many times that Bruce Lee was the most talented Martial Artist he's ever seen, and they worked together several times, even becoming good friends.

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## MMA

> Very true. Bruce's goal was basically what the MMA is today. You've got different fighters with different strengths and weaknesses going at each other. Bruce always believed the only way to find out if a technique worked was to try it out on the streets in real life situations. This got him in a little trouble early in his career. 
> 
> The idea that Bruce's senior students lost their way is something which Cycleon, myself and others discussed fairly extensively in another thread. A lot of schools, including Dan Inasonto's in L.A. have morphed into concept schools which have become somewhat commercialized. I feel Dan is trying his best, however, to remain as true as possible and remain financially viable, to Bruce's principles.
> 
> Liddell vs. Bruce would be a hell of a fight, Bruce by K.O. as would Bruce vs Tyson, Bruce by no mas after Tyson got tired of chasing him around the ring and getting hit in the process. So in this case I would have to go with Bruce. And yes I'm very biased concerning Bruce and his abilities. I feel Bruce was the Mozart of Martial Arts, as Tyson once was in boxing. Both had such extreme physical talent that they must be analyzed individually, as they fit into only their own catagory, far above all others.
> 
> The Gene Lebell thing was more of a publicity stunt than anything else. I've read before that it was staged because If I'm correct Labell was the star at the time and he had to look good. Plus he was trying to promote the judo, grappling style. I definitely know that Labell stated many times that Bruce Lee was the most talented Martial Artist he's ever seen, and they worked together several times, even becoming good friends.


i'll try to dig up a link with the details, but i highly doubt it was a publicity stunt. bruce seriously tried to spar top martial artists from other styles, to learn the strengths and weaknesses of their styles. after sparring lebell, he gained great respect for lebells ability, and started to emphasize takedown defense, and groundwork escapes more. these are not the actions of someone who was effortlessly able to avoid the takedown attempts of a top grappler. 

bruce is also not the type of guy to risk the credibility of his ideas on a "publicity stunt" for another guy. it seems much more likely to me that he was simply sparring with an expert in another style, and (like so many other elite strikers), he was surprised at how easy it is for a grappler to get a clinch, and then modified his training accordingly. also, in his defense, lebell was MUCH larger than he was.

funny gene lebell story - he tried to start MMA 30 years ago in a match against a top ranked heavyweight boxer. the boxer didn't want to risk his career with a leg injury, so he requested no leglocks. in exchange, gene asked him to wear heavy clothing - a full gi that would help gene get his grips. the boxer showed up in a gi..covered in 3 inches of vaseline  :Smilie:  it was a long ugly bout, but eventually lebell was able to secure a takedown and choke  :Smilie:

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## MMA

> Very true. Bruce's goal was basically what the MMA is today. You've got different fighters with different strengths and weaknesses going at each other. Bruce always believed the only way to find out if a technique worked was to try it out on the streets in real life situations. This got him in a little trouble early in his career. 
> 
> The idea that Bruce's senior students lost their way is something which Cycleon, myself and others discussed fairly extensively in another thread. A lot of schools, including Dan Inasonto's in L.A. have morphed into concept schools which have become somewhat commercialized. I feel Dan is trying his best, however, to remain as true as possible and remain financially viable, to Bruce's principles.
> 
> Liddell vs. Bruce would be a hell of a fight, Bruce by K.O. as would Bruce vs Tyson, Bruce by no mas after Tyson got tired of chasing him around the ring and getting hit in the process. So in this case I would have to go with Bruce. And yes I'm very biased concerning Bruce and his abilities. I feel Bruce was the Mozart of Martial Arts, as Tyson once was in boxing. Both had such extreme physical talent that they must be analyzed individually, as they fit into only their own catagory, far above all others.
> 
> The Gene Lebell thing was more of a publicity stunt than anything else. I've read before that it was staged because If I'm correct Labell was the star at the time and he had to look good. Plus he was trying to promote the judo, grappling style. I definitely know that Labell stated many times that Bruce Lee was the most talented Martial Artist he's ever seen, and they worked together several times, even becoming good friends.


it wasn't the commercialization that killed JKD, it was so many people blatantly ignoring his basic principles. "take what is useful, abandon what is not." everyone remembered the first part, but not the the second. JKD became more and more a collection of "useful techniques", instead of a systematic grouping of the "best techniques". and if you're training "good techniques" and your opponents are training only the "best and most efficeint techniques", you're at a serious disadvantage.

i've seen JKD schools where they taught a kali "destruction", to set up a "straight blast" entering technique, to get you into wing chun "trapping range" to set up your muay thai elbows and knees. this is not a joke, this was actally the heart of their system! the trapping alone took years to master. half the time devoted to just doing Muay Thai would have made them twice as effective.

if they were continually testing and refining it by sparring, the way he wanted them to, they would have ended up with something that looked a hell of a lot more like modern MMA than some of the crap they were doing in the 80s. you would be amazed at how quickly a modern MMA school can turn a dedicated athlete into a genuinely dangerous opponent, by only teaching the most effective techniques. it's just not that hard to teach people how to fight effectively.

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## FRANK WHITE

> i'll try to dig up a link with the details, but i highly doubt it was a publicity stunt. bruce seriously tried to spar top martial artists from other styles, to learn the strengths and weaknesses of their styles. after sparring lebell, he gained great respect for lebells ability, and started to emphasize takedown defense, and groundwork escapes more. these are not the actions of someone who was effortlessly able to avoid the takedown attempts of a top grappler. 
> 
> bruce is also not the type of guy to risk the credibility of his ideas on a "publicity stunt" for another guy. it seems much more likely to me that he was simply sparring with an expert in another style, and (like so many other elite strikers), he was surprised at how easy it is for a grappler to get a clinch, and then modified his training accordingly. also, in his defense, lebell was MUCH larger than he was.
> 
> funny gene lebell story - he tried to start MMA 30 years ago in a match against a top ranked heavyweight boxer. the boxer didn't want to risk his career with a leg injury, so he requested no leglocks. in exchange, gene asked him to wear heavy clothing - a full gi that would help gene get his grips. the boxer showed up in a gi..covered in 3 inches of vaseline  it was a long ugly bout, but eventually lebell was able to secure a takedown and choke


 I'd like to hear more about the Gene Lebell thing. I've heard both versions, depending on who I was talking to. I do know that Bruce respected Lebell very much and this makes the non publicity stunt very plausible. 

Good story about Labell against the boxer. I've never doubted an MMA guys ability to take on and defeat a pro boxer. But again, I don't view an in shape Tyson or a In his prime George Foreman as ordinary boxers. My fascination with power may have something to do with this.

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## FRANK WHITE

[QUOTE=MMA]it wasn't the commercialization that killed JKD, it was so many people blatantly ignoring his basic principles. "take what is useful, abandon what is not." everyone remembered the first part, but not the the second. JKD became more and more a collection of "useful techniques", instead of a systematic grouping of the "best techniques". and if you're training "good techniques" and your opponents are training only the "best and most efficeint techniques", you're at a serious disadvantage.

I think part of the reason many JKD concept schools stuck with the useful techniques instead of the best was because thats what attracted students. A lot of the fancy hollywood flying kicks look great, but not practical in a real life situation. Very good point about using only the best and most efficient techniques. Definitely what Bruce would have wanted and part of his philosophy.

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## FRANK WHITE

i've seen JKD schools where they taught a kali "destruction", to set up a "straight blast" entering technique, to get you into wing chun "trapping range" to set up your muay thai elbows and knees. this is not a joke, this was actally the heart of their system! the trapping alone took years to master. half the time devoted to just doing Muay Thai would have made them twice as effective.

if they were continually testing and refining it by sparring, the way he wanted them to, they would have ended up with something that looked a hell of a lot more like modern MMA than some of the crap they were doing in the 80s. you would be amazed at how quickly a modern MMA school can turn a dedicated athlete into a genuinely dangerous opponent, by only teaching the most effective techniques. it's just not that hard to teach people how to fight effectively.[/QUOTE]

Part of the reason many of the schools used more complicated, longer to master, and in the short run, less efficient techniques is they actually believed the more you are exposed to the more you can take with you. Some of it may also have been that for a while JKD got overcomplicated and bombarded students with to many styles and techniques, thus getting away from traditional Gung Fu/Wing Chun farther and further. 

I have no doubt the modern MMA schools are very effective in their effecient teaching approach. At times many schools get caught up a little to much in tradition and not enough in what works. But thats part of the spirit of Martial Arts in many schools isn't it. Bruce got critisized a lot for abandoning tradition and doing what you stated above, what works. I feel MMA tends to favor the gladiator approach more. By necessity no doubt. Simply because it works.

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## BlueAndromeda73

I would go with shamrock, if he took tyson down thats pretty much it.

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## Cyto78

> First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event? 
> 
> Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.
> 
> Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about. 
> 
> No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included. And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.
> 
> I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.
> ...



Bro you are a pretty funny dude.....I would much rather this discussion be about Holyfield....**** Tyson.....Tyson can not simply watch a tape and be prepared for an MMA type fighter...you are way off....LMFAO.....who in the **** have you seen Tyson destroy as of late and what big name fighters did he destroy in the past....bro Boxing in a boxing ring is completely different than fighting a MMA tourny....you say you have 10 years exp....I just dont see it......stick Tyson in the Octagon,K-1,Pride any of it and he will will have little chance...The MMA fighters are who could watch a Tyson tape and be prepared for what he brings not vise versa.....Strikes alone will not dominate everthing all the time....period....another thing is bro Tyson is not going to rush in and exspose himself to being grounded...so what is he to do.......dude Tysons legs would buckle in a matter of no time with thunderous kicks coming in.....he would get rocked be it by kicks or ground and pound......I think I would rather see a powerful grappler man handle his ****ing ass ground and pound him.....either way ground and pound or stay on the outside and brutal kicks would bring him down fast.......all he can do is punch....that being said he can't punch to well against a fighter that is throwing mad kicks at him from the outside and if he did attempt to get in close that could be a mistake cause it would risk him being snatched up......Tyson isnt KO'ing anybody these days....Bro id like to see Mighty MO in K-1 ko Tyson's ass with one punch.....Bro you talk as if Tyson is not human.....many many fighters that can only strike against Tyson take his punches and also beat him....powerful leg kicks is all a fighter would need to bring Tyson down if for some reason they also didnt want to attempt a take down...I still say Shamrock would beat him and Liddell would ****ing own him.......

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## FRANK WHITE

> Bro you are absolutely the funniest ass person I have ever heard.....I would much rather this discussion be about Holyfield....**** Tyson.....Tyson can not simply watch a tape and be prepared for an MMA type fighter...you are way off....LMFAO.....who in the **** have you seen Tyson destroy as of late and what big name fighters did he destroy in the past....bro Boxing in a boxing ring is completely different than fighting a MMA tourny....you say you have 10 years exp....I just dont see it......stick Tyson in the Octagon,K-1,Pride any of it and he will will have little chance...The MMA fighters are who could watch a Tyson tape and be prepared for what he brings not vise versa.....Strikes alone will not dominate everthing all the time....period....another thing is bro Tyson is not going to rush in and exspose himself to being grounded...so what is he to do.......dude Tysons legs would buckle in a matter of no time with thunderous kicks coming in.....he would get rocked be it by kicks or ground and pound......I think I would rather see a powerful grappler man handle his ****ing ass ground and pound him.....either way ground and pound or stay on the outside and brutal kicks would bring him down fast....He will not go in for a clinch against an MMA fighter.......all he can do is punch....thats it bro...do you not realize this......Tyson isnt KO'ing anybody these days....Bro id like to see Mighty MO in K-1 ko Tyson's ass with one punch.....Bro you talk ass if Tyson is not human.....many many fighters that can only strike against Tyson take his punches and also beat him....powerful leg kicks is all a fighter would need to bring Tyson down if for some reason they also didnt want to attempt a take down...I still say Shamrock would beat him and Liddell would ****ing own him.......



 :Bs:  You made a lot of statements without anything to back them up Cyto. Why don't you read all the posts instead of just a few lines before babbling some BS. It makes you sound like your some individual who saw the Rock on TV and thinks Wrestlemania is the greatest thing on earth. Now is that funny. I hope so. I'm glad I could entertain you. So why am I so ****in funny huh, am I a comedian. (Couldn't resist that Goodfellas(Joe Pesci) line.  :1laugh:  Shamrock couldn't even beat Franklin whoever now, and you think he could beat an in shape Tyson. You overestimate grapplers bro, read all the posts from myself and MMA and make an educated aurguement. I'll respect that. What I won't respect is someone talking a lot of smack with no plausible aurguement to back it up. I've been involved with Martial Arts since the late eighties. I think that gives me the right to make an educated aurguement. Which I think I have. So actually you are right, I don't have ten years experience, I have almost twenty, albeit a significant chunk of that was with the Devil Dogs.

I've stated that some of the MMA guys might have a small chance against an in shape Tyson, but the K1 guys! You think Bob Sapp could beat him? If you do I don't think I need to say anymore. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Bob Sapp one of the elite K1 guys?

Before I even got involved with JKD I used a military system of fighting(L.I.N.E.) to beat a lot of fighters from grapplers to Mua Thai, etc, in several different countries. Sorry, but it wasn't that hard. And these guys were so called traditionalists from the Philipines, Japan, and Indonesia.  :Wink/Grin:  

When you respond and I'm sure you will, come at me with a plausible aurguement and I'll listen. Remember to get respect you have to show respect. A very simple but often overlooked thing.

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## cdogge

think about it...if shamrock took him down...then what...punch him in the face for about an hour and a half...ok....then tyson gets up and gives him a light jab to the dome and shatters ken's face....ken might actually die

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## MMA

> think about it...if shamrock took him down...then what...punch him in the face for about an hour and a half...ok....then tyson gets up and gives him a light jab to the dome and shatters ken's face....ken might actually die


the only problem with that is how does tyson get up? tyson simply does not have the tools to escape from a high level grappler in a dominant position. once ken secures the clinch/takedown, he can keep him down and keep pounding away for as long as it takes. why stop at half an hour? mike can't do anything to stop him on the ground.

although realisticly, ken would probably be able to secure an armbar or choke long before then, even if tyson was completely impervious to punches.

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## FRANK WHITE

Gentleman, I've stated my position on this subject, and I stand by it. An in shape Tyson takes out Shamrock easily and Liddel perhaps not so easily. If you disagree I respect that. Its obvious were not going to change each others opinions so as we've already stated, we'll respectfully agree to disagree. There's only one way to really find out and I don't think that will ever happen. 

If Tyson was forced to wear boxing gloves I might change my opinion. But with the MMA size gloves you increase Tyson's power and speed by two to three times. Shamrock or Liddell coming in would be like walking through getting hit by a sledgehammer. I don't care how good their takedowns are. If you believe a person can walk through getting hit be a sledgehammer and still function well enough to secure a hold on someone as strong as Tyson well then theres nothing else to say on my end. There one bad MF'er. 

One of Sifu Dan Inasonto's favorite sayings was "Always remember, you can teach a german shepard to do anything, attack, heal, anything. But no matter how much you teach him if you lock him in a room with a Pit Bull the untrained Pit Bull will kill him.
Don't ever forget that." Obviously the point being that there are just some people out there who you don't wan't to mess with, no matter how much training you have. An in shape Tyson is one of those people. 

Those who say Tyson has lost it, etc. are partially right. Since Don King became his manager in 88 he has went downhill. If he would have stayed with the team he had things would have been a lot different. He's still very dangerous, not superhuman, just very dangerous. Subtract the padded gloves and his power and speed becomes only greater.

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## FRANK WHITE

> Shamrock wouldn't even see the punch that left him brain damaged.


 Thank you Bouncer! In opinions so far its 2-1 favoring Tyson MMA, by people with Martial Arts,, MMA, fighting backrounds, etc. 

I don't know about others with fighting experience but feel free to identify yourselves.

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## FRANK WHITE

You have to understand its the same thing as if you put boxing gloves on Shamrock and told him to box Tyson.Shamrock would get KOed in 5 seconds.

Now if Tyson(in his prime) had a year to prepare for a MMA fight,learned to avoid submissions and worked non stop on his sprawl,he would be one of the most dominating MMA fighters in the world.[/QUOTE]

This arguement I respect. Brief but well thought out and logical. I don't have to agree with it but it I can respect it. 
 :Rant:

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## FRANK WHITE

> Although I'm not a professional boxer, I'm a very experienced boxer and kickboxer and I can tell you (as I said earlier) Ken wouldn't see the punch that left him brain damaged. Forget fighting Mike on the ground or in a clinch, Ken would still have to come in Mikes boxing circle and I'm pretty sure he'd finish Ken off pretty easy. Might be my confidence as a boxer talking, but I could pretty much take a non boxer (right terminology?) apart PDQ.


 DITTO!  :Bbiwin:

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## FRANK WHITE

> i dont want to get into a long debate about this cause everone has their own opinion and everyone makes alot of good points but...i happen to promote fights for a living, and knowing just about all the boxers you can think of and many ufc and cage guys, i can tell you this. there is not one cage fighter or ufc guy in the world that can take a punch from a heavyweight. im not saying that the're not tough. im not saying that they are not unbelievable athletes. they are. im just stating fact. i also keep hearing the same thing from the ufc side. everyone seems to think its all over if you can get a boxer to the ground. you really think tyson or moorer or any of those guys have never been in a street fight. you think they cant fight on the ground? come on. anyway its just my opinion.


 Nice read from someone who knows fighting!

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## catabolic kid

This is the bottom line: There is a much greater probability that Tyson can land one punch before Ken (who does not have good takedowns) can take him down.

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## FRANK WHITE

> This is the bottom line: There is a much greater probability that Tyson can land one punch before Ken (who does not have good takedowns) can take him down.


 Agreed Catabolic! That is the bottom line. 
 :Bbbump:

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## MMA

> i dont want to get into a long debate


i don't mind a lengthy debate, as long as the people act like gentlemen, the way we are doing here.




> about this cause everone has their own opinion and everyone makes alot of good points but...i happen to promote fights for a living, and knowing just about all the boxers you can think of and many ufc and cage guys, i can tell you this. there is not one cage fighter or ufc guy in the world that can take a punch from a heavyweight. im not saying that the're not tough. im not saying that they are not unbelievable athletes. they are. im just stating fact.



i can kind of see where you're coming from, but the fact is no heavyweight boxer can take a perfect punch from another heavyweight boxer either. they're prettty much all powerful enough to put you out if their best punch lands right, no matter who you are. my estimate is purely based on playing the percentages, and personal experience. any serious heavyweight can take out anybody if he lands flush enough, but the fact is these guys repeatedly throw hundreds of punches and fail to knock out their opponents. they end up in numerous clinches in the meantime. against guys who don't have any specialized skills at bridging into a clinch, and in fact aren't even trying to clinch. it's just an easy situation to end up in. how many clinches did you see in Ruiz/Toney? any one of them would have been the ended the fight in MMA. 


also, a couple of points of fact - ray mercer, a man with a legedary chin, recently survived 3 rounds with klitcko. he was knocked out in about 10 seconds by a kickboxer in K1. francois botha, who clowned tyson for a few rounds before getting caught, has been repeatedly beaten by 2nd rate k1 fighters. klitchko himself was KOed my a modern elite kickboxer, when he tried to kickbox early in his career. this doesn't directly relate to our question, but several K1 fighters have converted to MMA, and have had soe success, but only with extensive crosstraining. it was not simply a matter of walking in and knocking evetyone out. jens pulver and several other MMA fighters also have winning records as professional boxers. 






> i also keep hearing the same thing from the ufc side. everyone seems to think its all over if you can get a boxer to the ground. you really think tyson or moorer or any of those guys have never been in a street fight. you think they cant fight on the ground? come on. anyway its just my opinion.


i'm sure the top boxers would tear ass on the ground against regular guys, but not against world class grapplers, they would do about as well as ken shamrock in a boxing match with a top pro. do you really think a boxer sould stand a chance against a world class wrestler on the ground after a takedown? no chance.

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## 1819

in mercers defense, he was 43 yrs old when he got in there and botha, well not exactly a world class boxer in my opinion. anyway it is fun to debate, especially with guys who know what they're talking about. i played hockey for a living and now i promote fights. let me tell you something, alot of the boxers always clown with me and tell me what a tough guy i am for surviving 4 yrs in the bigs. not true. of all the sports and training ive ever done, i can tell you that the fight game is by far the toughest. at 38 i can still go out and skate up a storm with the best of them. put me in the ring for 3 rounds and im looking for my mom to bail me out. anyone that steps in that ring or octagon is a man. pure and simple. i hope all you guys that are fighting, in either sport reach all your goals and most importantly, stay healthy, well, as healthy possible. lol.

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## MMA

> in mercers defense, he was 43 yrs old when he got in there and botha, well not exactly a world class boxer in my opinion. anyway it is fun to debate, especially with guys who know what they're talking about. i played hockey for a living and now i promote fights. let me tell you something, alot of the boxers always clown with me and tell me what a tough guy i am for surviving 4 yrs in the bigs. not true. of all the sports and training ive ever done, i can tell you that the fight game is by far the toughest. at 38 i can still go out and skate up a storm with the best of them. put me in the ring for 3 rounds and im looking for my mom to bail me out. anyone that steps in that ring or octagon is a man. pure and simple. i hope all you guys that are fighting, in either sport reach all your goals and most importantly, stay healthy, well, as healthy possible. lol.


thank you for your kind words. and you're very correct that mercer is old, and a shadow of his former self. thats why i was just making the comparison surviving 3 rounds with vitale, one of the hardest hitters in the division, and his quick KO in in K1, because they both happened around the same time frame. thats why i didn't bring up the way vince philips (former champ, beat kostya tzu) got smoked in K1, because he was definitely over the hill. the botha beatings bear directly on our topic, because when he fought tyson, he seriously outboxed and clowned tyson for a few rounds, before tyson caught him (with a BEAUTIFUL punch out of nowhere). botha also ended up in several clinches with tyson too BTW.

if the top K1 fighters (some of whom have crosstrained and transitioned into MMA, and have very solid grappling skills - cro cop) are demonstrably BETTER than fighters like Botha (who actually outboxed tyson for a few rounds, and lasted long enough to get several clinches), it's hard to argue that they couldn't at least survive long enough to clinch ONCE.

i'm not putting down boxing, it's a great base, and my boxing skills allow me to dominate every time we're in punching range. but the most effective punchers in MMA are the guys who have the skills to give them more opportuniteis to punch - takedown defense and bottom game.

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## MMA

> let me tell you something, alot of the boxers always clown with me and tell me what a tough guy i am for surviving 4 yrs in the bigs. not true. of all the sports and training ive ever done, i can tell you that the fight game is by far the toughest.


you played pro hockey? any war stories you can share without violating your privacy?

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## Cyto78

[QUOTE=FRANK WHITE] 
One of Sifu Dan Inasonto's favorite sayings was "Always remember, you can teach a german shepard to do anything, attack, heal, anything. But no matter how much you teach him if you lock him in a room with a Pit Bull the untrained Pit Bull will kill him.
Don't ever forget that." Obviously the point being that there are just some people out there who you don't wan't to mess with, no matter how much training you have. An in shape Tyson is one of those people. 


If your implying Tyson is like the pitbull in your statement then MMA fighters are the Tosa INU or the Presa Canario's of the fighting world.....dogs that would make short work of a Pitbull....granted the pitbull does have a slight chance because of its powerful jaws its still very slim!!So yes there are some people you just don't mess with and MMA fighters are those people as well as Tyson if your just a normal guy kinda like your German Shepard......but if you are at the top of your game in MMA simular to the Tosa or Canary dogs are in the dog world than you can dominate even the mighty Tyson!!

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## cdogge

is this really still a debate?....holy shit....ken got beat a couple weeks ago by some damn redneck fag from the south side of arkansas....and you guys think he can beat mike tyson....In a street fight tyson would be a freakin monster...We already know he will do anything to try and win a fight....damn tyson would F*ck the mother *****er up....

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## FRANK WHITE

[QUOTE=Cyto78]


> One of Sifu Dan Inasonto's favorite sayings was "Always remember, you can teach a german shepard to do anything, attack, heal, anything. But no matter how much you teach him if you lock him in a room with a Pit Bull the untrained Pit Bull will kill him.
> Don't ever forget that." Obviously the point being that there are just some people out there who you don't wan't to mess with, no matter how much training you have. An in shape Tyson is one of those people. 
> 
> 
> If your implying Tyson is like the pitbull in your statement then MMA fighters are the Tosa INU or the Presa Canario's of the fighting world.....dogs that would make short work of a Pitbull....granted the pitbull does have a slight chance because of its powerful jaws its still very slim!!So yes there are some people you just don't mess with and MMA fighters are those people as well as Tyson if your just a normal guy kinda like your German Shepard......but if you are at the top of your game in MMA simular to the Tosa or Canary dogs are in the dog world than you can dominate even the mighty Tyson!!



 :Rant:  Alright Cyto, I give up. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. All I have to say is that I have the utmost respect for all fighters, MMA, boxers, etc. All of the top guys in both sports would be devastating, as you said, to an average joe. 

Thats funny you mentioned the Tosa and the canary dogs. I almost bought a Tosa once, I wanted a dog few people had which could take care of itself if needed, against any dog. I also read a lot about both the Tosa and the canary dogs of the canary Islands right. Tosa is from Japan. The thing is, I guess we can't agree on anything, but its all good fun bro, is that all the books I read on fighting dogs stated the Pit bull was the top fighting dog, giving examples of how they defeated Tosa's in fights. The Tosas were baddass, but were just to slow the books stated. They never really mentioned any specific examples of a Canary Dog vs. a Pit Bull, but most of them stated the canary dog was an awesome dog almost as good as the Pit Bull. Just what I read bro. No actual experience whatsoever. And I definitely don't believe in fighting dogs, I'm way to much of an animal lover. They were both really cool looking dogs. The Tosa was ****ing huge. It looked like a huge Pit Bull, and the Canary dog just looked mean as hell. 

What got me into looking for a baddass dog was that my Rottweiler got his ass kicked at the Laurel Canyon and Mulholland dog park in L.A. by a Great Dane. I was pissed. The guy who owned the Great Dane was a real prick and didn't even apologize. I almost beat his ass, but didn't. Instead I researched all the dogs, thus learning about the Tosa and the Canary Dog, and a few others. No matter what I read though, the Pit Bull, at least in these books, came out on top. So thats what I bought. I have no regrets whatsoever, a great dog who is absolutely loyal to her owner, and very protective. Peace man!

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## Cyto78

> Alright Cyto, I give up. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. All I have to say is that I have the utmost respect for all fighters, MMA, boxers, etc. All of the top guys in both sports would be devastating, as you said, to an average joe. 
> 
> Thats funny you mentioned the Tosa and the canary dogs. I almost bought a Tosa once, I wanted a dog few people had which could take care of itself if needed, against any dog. I also read a lot about both the Tosa and the canary dogs of the canary Islands right. Tosa is from Japan. The thing is, I guess we can't agree on anything, but its all good fun bro, is that all the books I read on fighting dogs stated the Pit bull was the top fighting dog, giving examples of how they defeated Tosa's in fights. The Tosas were baddass, but were just to slow the books stated. They never really mentioned any specific examples of a Canary Dog vs. a Pit Bull, but most of them stated the canary dog was an awesome dog almost as good as the Pit Bull. Just what I read bro. No actual experience whatsoever. And I definitely don't believe in fighting dogs, I'm way to much of an animal lover. They were both really cool looking dogs. The Tosa was ****ing huge. It looked like a huge Pit Bull, and the Canary dog just looked mean as hell. 
> 
> What got me into looking for a baddass dog was that my Rottweiler got his ass kicked at the Laurel Canyon and Mulholland dog park in L.A. by a Great Dane. I was pissed. The guy who owned the Great Dane was a real prick and didn't even apologize. I almost beat his ass, but didn't. Instead I researched all the dogs, thus learning about the Tosa and the Canary Dog, and a few others. No matter what I read though, the Pit Bull, at least in these books, came out on top. So thats what I bought. I have no regrets whatsoever, a great dog who is absolutely loyal to her owner, and very protective. Peace man!



You still made a good purchase with the Pit......Pitbulls are awesome!!All three the Tosa,Canary and the Pit are the best in the world at fighting..... it is a waste of a beautiful dog though if you are to fight them as many do.Both the Tosa and the Canary dog are massive....it is actually the Canary dog that looks like a huge pitbull with a head and jaws that are almost twice that of a pit.To bad about your Rott...I would of thought otherwise in that encounter with the Great Dane.Oh well I don't see that ever happening if your pit was to meet up with the Dane......yeah bro all this debating is just in fun...I also have the utmost respect for all fighters even the mighty Tyson himself.

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## cdogge

you can't match a pit bull....period....my female is 16in tall and is 65lbs....And i can for sure 100% say that I would put her up against almost any dog....The speed and strength of a quality breed pit bull is unmatched...is actually insane how retardly strong she is....the damn thing jumped over my 6 foot privacy fence......no shit....they are just too damn crazy...

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## cdogge

damn....i just realized how hijacked this thread is....sorry

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## 100m champ

Mike Tyson Can Crack!! With Mike Tyson In Those Tiny Little Gloves.. He Could Probally Kill Someone Standing With One Shot.. All It Takes Is For Tyson To Hit Him One Time And Its Over, Tyson Was Knocking Guys Out Left And Right With 10 Ounce Gloves, Now He Would Be Fighting Shamrock With Little Baby Fist Gloves.. Mike Tyson Would Bust His Face And Every Bone In It With One Punch In Those Baby Gloves!

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## cdogge

> Mike Tyson Can Crack!! With Mike Tyson In Those Tiny Little Gloves.. He Could Probally Kill Someone Standing With One Shot.. All It Takes Is For Tyson To Hit Him One Time And Its Over, Tyson Was Knocking Guys Out Left And Right With 10 Ounce Gloves, Now He Would Be Fighting Shamrock With Little Baby Fist Gloves.. Mike Tyson Would Bust His Face And Every Bone In It With One Punch In Those Baby Gloves!



agreed...

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## MASTER

I reckon Tyson wud destroy ken shamrock, hes an absolute psycho. The main arguements people are giving for ken is that he is bigger and stronger, when clearly the reverse is true, shamrock is maximum like 205lbs, at like 6"1 and tyson is 5"11 and these days about 240 ripped, so clearly he is in fact the bigger man and with some training in wrestling and ju jitsu, would end up with the advantage. The other argment being his lack of take down defence and skill, well tyson i wud imagine from all the street fights hes bin in wud know a thing or 2 about grappling, groundfighting and the such, plus we all know he has rather a few dirty tricks up his sleeve. If tyson trained for say a year to refine his skill in various styles, I believe he wud absolutely destroy shamrock, or in fact ne1 else in ufc, perhaps with the exception of frank mir, who is in a class of his own

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## MMA

> I reckon Tyson wud destroy ken shamrock, hes an absolute psycho. The main arguements people are giving for ken is that he is bigger and stronger, when clearly the reverse is true, shamrock is maximum like 205lbs, at like 6"1 and tyson is 5"11 and these days about 240 ripped, so clearly he is in fact the bigger man and with some training in wrestling and ju jitsu, would end up with the advantage. The other argment being his lack of take down defence and skill, well tyson i wud imagine from all the street fights hes bin in wud know a thing or 2 about grappling, groundfighting and the such, plus we all know he has rather a few dirty tricks up his sleeve. If tyson trained for say a year to refine his skill in various styles, I believe he wud absolutely destroy shamrock, or in fact ne1 else in ufc, perhaps with the exception of frank mir, who is in a class of his own


first, i don't think anyone here has argued that ken is so much much bigger and stronger than tyson that he can simply overpower him. don' know where you're getting that from, thats just silly, and much more likely that the practical stength advantage will be very solidly tyson's.

i agree that tyson would be a very dangerous opponent for anybody IF he crosstrained, but thats not the question here.

as far as mir "being in a class of his own" - this is way off base. mir is a very dangerous and skilled fighter, but he has limitations and has been beaten by complete scrubs like wes simms. for those who don't know - the entire UFC heavyweight division is almost a minor league farm system for Pride. it's a much bigger sport in japan, with much more money, and they love heavyweights. almost any UFC heavy with any talent eventually gets signed by pride. mir would be crushed by all the top heavies in Pride.

and the idea that tyson would be able to beat elite graplers on the ground with his "streetfighting skills" is ludicrous. if any elite wrestler in MMA had tyson on the ground, tyson would have about as much chance of getting up as an untrained streetfighter has of winning the Heavyweight Chmapionship of the World.

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## cdogge

yeah well...I would still put a pit bull up against him...lol..

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## Iowa Boy

Shamrock all the way. Not even close. It would be over in under a min.

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## Joey2ness

My money would be on both of them and how about tyson bulky no kicks and big punches and cant move his head back and forth sideways like boxing or face will get kicked or knocked in a real fight with no boxing GLoves

Move head down to dodge punch boooooyaa and gets kneed in face broken nose right there

move head sideways boxing style get kicked in side of head because of too bulky and heavy

Since shamrock isn't vering those spoofy big red gloves tyson cant move his head out the way from his punches

yep those boxing gloves were made bright red and big for a reason so any boxer could dodge them easily and see them coming before i can say big red

Mike tyson learns and if ''if'' he perfects grapples and grapples ken shamrock and bam bam shamrocks gets beat on the ground because tyson is so big but slower then shamrock but can grapple him

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## Joey2ness

> As soon as they clinch and go down Tyson will be like a fish out of water.
> 
> Tyson either wins the fight in the first few seconds(punchers chance)or Shamrock would dominate Tyson as would most B and even C class MMA fighters.
> 
> You have to understand its the same thing as if you put boxing gloves on Shamrock and told him to box Tyson.Shamrock would get KOed in 5 seconds.
> 
> Now if Tyson(in his prime) had a year to prepare for a MMA fight,learned to avoid submissions and worked non stop on his sprawl,he would be one of the most dominating MMA fighters in the world.


sounds like kevin randleman big and muscular and probably is the mike tyson of ufc but not the champion of ufc

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## Joey2ness

I think mike tyson will own if he learned grappling and other fight styles and he should train for 1 year and probably beat alot of people in ufc but not in his own weight class just guys smaller then him

and probably lots of people including I will probably own in the UFC if we had 20 years plus training UFC style martial arts
Its just forum talk but who really has 20 years under their belt probably some real UFC fighters and none of this is true untill seen in the octagon

or maybe i and alot of others are wrong and over imaginative to think tyson can actually own in UFC with just 1 year training because ufc is weight class and not little guy vs big guy

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## dmcf99

if any of you have ever been in a fight, this will probably make sense to you.... yes, tyson has no mma fighting abilities, but if you listen to anyone of tysons early interviews, he states he was invovled in numerous street fights growing up.... even though i have no training in any sort of mma, i have been in fights and learned as i go along... i have beat people with mma experience just by pure strength and natural ability and i have no where near the ability of tyson.... bottom line is tyson knows how to fight and his strength, speed, and natural ability is too much for shamrock..

shamrock trys the double leg, tysons power pushes him off, and shamrock gets a few dents in the back of his head

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## cdogge

> if any of you have ever been in a fight, this will probably make sense to you.... yes, tyson has no mma fighting abilities, but if you listen to anyone of tysons early interviews, he states he was invovled in numerous street fights growing up.... even though i have no training in any sort of mma, i have been in fights and learned as i go along... i have beat people with mma experience just by pure strength and natural ability and i have no where near the ability of tyson.... bottom line is tyson knows how to fight and his strength, speed, and natural ability is too much for shamrock..
> 
> shamrock trys the double leg, tysons power pushes him off, and shamrock gets a few dents in the back of his head


Exactly!!!

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## MMA

> if any of you have ever been in a fight, this will probably make sense to you.... yes, tyson has no mma fighting abilities, but if you listen to anyone of tysons early interviews, he states he was invovled in numerous street fights growing up.... even though i have no training in any sort of mma, i have been in fights and learned as i go along... i have beat people with mma experience just by pure strength and natural ability and i have no where near the ability of tyson.... bottom line is tyson knows how to fight and his strength, speed, and natural ability is too much for shamrock..
> 
> shamrock trys the double leg, tysons power pushes him off, and shamrock gets a few dents in the back of his head


good athletic streetfighters have beaten bad MMA fighters. good athletic streetfighers have beaten bad boxers too. tyson has as much chance of escaping a hold from ken shamrock with his raw street moves as a raw streetfighter has of KOing tyson in a boxing match.

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## MTLMAN

Fighting is not only techinic, Tyson is a sick mother ****er, in his prime he can beat up 99% of MMA fighters, you can graplle his ass if you can but you wont be able too, go and watch his old games when he was in his prime, that guy is a sicko, and it is the sicko that goes home as a winner. go and check how he charges a fighter then boom 1 upper cut to the jaw the fighter is down, every boxer got his technic., MMA is more entertaninig but the amount of damage that a boxer can take cannot be compered by any other sports, list me another sport where sometimes u got to fight for 45 minutes with all kind of shit to your jaw, face and ribs.

good luck for any MMA fighter to block a 25 punches combo in a street fight from tyson in his prime, that man WAS a tank.

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## BoL0

How soon we forget how LONG and brutal the first few UFC used to be........in

tyson's prime how many fights went passed the fourth round? Now lets think how long

the shamrock - gracie fights were. Now lets add the fact that these were 1 day

tournaments (multiple fights). POINT- Ken was a tough SOB. Not taking anything from

Tyson, but in MMA you have more weapons to defend against that just punches. (And

your punching power is cut by around 60% when your on your back.)

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## MTLMAN

actually when you are in back ur punching power is almost null, ur elbows are on the floor u cannot swing, but people think if u can kick then u can win....
tyson in his prime was a formidable fighter....
this is going to be an endless thread,
just remember one thing, 90% of the win comes from the fighter and not from the style...

my bet will stay in tyson in his prime

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