# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Lowish testosterone log 18y/o

## hollowedzeus

I do love a good log and i have spent a large portion of time reading users low testosterone threads on this site amongst others. I am starting my own log where i will update every few months perhaps with blood work and medical updates. I do this so i can see my journey as well as others who would like to see how the process is in the UK.

Now to clear a few things up first. I am not immediatly seeking trt... 1. I dont know if my testosterone level merits it...
2. I know it is a lifelong commitment and this is my one and only life
3. As kel says i dont want to put a band aid on the problem rather than addressing the issue correctly.

There are many logs where individuals are dying for trt for an excuse to start steroids at an earlier age and also to stay on forever to not loose those MAD GAINZ.

I will be honest that that part of the equation lurks at the back of my brain but i am ignoring it in an attempt to stay healthy and prolong my life.

I have already had 2 blood tests which i will post. And also brought up low sex drive and low test to a doctor and been dismissed. The nhs will no longer help me with my issues as i am wasting their money... that i pay monthly... as part of tax.... hmm

Now... apolgies for the long first post. I will conclude with asking all of you guys to input and help as much as you wish and i will also post up my bloodwork below shortly.

Thank you
Zeus

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## kelkel

Be following this. It has potential to help others stuck in the same situation.

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## hollowedzeus

> Be following this. It has potential to help others stuck in the same situation.


Thank you that is part of my intention

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## hollowedzeus

So this is my first bloodwork. I ordered almost every test in this bloodwork after i suspected low testosterone . My doctors surgery wasnt pleased that i had expectations of what to have tested.
I wass also on keto at this time so it was theorised that the lack of carbs is what caused low t feelings

Edit here is the blood work typed out as the picture isnt great
Plasma glucose level 4.5mmol/L - range 3.0-6.0

CALCIUM
serum albumin 54g/L - 35-50

Corrected serum calcium level 2.32mmol/L -range 2.20 - 2.60

serum lipids

Serum cholesterol 4.4mmol/L - range 0.0-5.0

Total cholesterol HDL RATIO 3.1

Serum triglycerides 0.60mmol/L - range 0.00-2.30

Serum HDL cholesterol levels 1.41mmol/L -range 0.90-1.80

Serum LDL cholesterol levels 2.7mmol/L -range 0.0-3.0

LIVER FUNCTION
Serum albumin - 54g/L - range 35-50
Serum alkaline phosphatase 79U/L - range 65-210
Serum alanine aminotransferase level 29U/L - range 5-55
Serum bilirubin 12umol/L - range 0-20

UREA AND ELECTROLYTES
Serum bicarbonate 27mmol/L - range 22-29
Serum chloride 101mmol/L - range 95-108
Serum sodium 145mmol/L - range 133-146
Serum creatinine 81umol/L - range 71-123
Estimated EGFR >59
Serum urea level 6.1mmol/L - range 2.5-7.8

THYROID
free t4 level 14.4pmol/L - range 9.p-21.0
Serum TSH level 1.32mU/L - range 0.20-5.00

VITIMIN D
Vitimin d 32nmol/L - range 25-170

TESTOSTERONE 
Serum sex hormone binding globulin level 44.9nmol/L - range 17.00-56.0

Serum testosterone 16.70nmol/L - range 8.60-29.00

Calculated free testosterone 286pmol/L - range 200-620

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## hollowedzeus

My second bloodwork a couple of months later. Stopped keto pretty quickly after my last blood work. Diet consited of roughly 200p 350c 60f. Was super nice to the nurse and she allowed test to be tested again.

However i did not realise i was getting the appointment straight away. I did hsve oats immediedly before leaving the house... i do not know how much this would effect sex hormones. Ive heard it shouldnt but i am unsure.

Edit
FBC
haemoglobin estimation - 15.2g/dl range -13.5-18

Mean corpuscular volume 94.2fl range 80-100

Platelet count315x10^9/l range 140-450

Total white vlood count 7x10^9/l range 4-11

Neutrophil count 3.9x10^9/l range 2-7.5

Lymphocyte count 2.4x10^9/l range 1-4

Monocyte count 0.6x10^9/l range 0.2-0.8

Eosinophil count 0.1x10^9/L range 0-0.4

Basophil count 0x10^9/L range 0-0.1

Rbc 4.98x10^12/L range 4.50-6.50

Haemocrit 0.469l/l range 0.400- 0.540

Mean corpuse haemoglobin 30.5pg range - 27-32

Mean corpuse hb conc32.4g/dl range- 32-36

Red blood cell distribution width 13.1% range - 11-16

Nucleated red blood cell count 0.01x10^9/L


LIVER FUNCTION
Serum albumin - 50g/L - range 35-50
Serum alkaline phosphatase 91U/L - range 65-210
Serum alanine aminotransferase level 67U/L - range 5-55
Serum bilirubin 7umol/L - range 0-20

UREA AND ELECTROLYTES
Serum bicarbonate 29mmol/L - range 22-29
Serum chloride 98mmol/L - range 95-108
Serum creatinine 89umol/L - range 71-123
Estimated EGFR >59
Serum urea level 4.1mmol/L - range 2.5-7.8


TESTOSTERONE 
Serum sex hormone binding globulin level 21.8nmol/L - range 17.00-56.0

Serum testosterone 9.40nmol/L - range 8.60-29.00

Calculated free testosterone 228pmol/L - range 200-620

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## canadian77

I can't read those. The pictures are too small. Anyone else?

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## hollowedzeus

> I can't read those. The pictures are too small. Anyone else?


No worries i will type them out for good measure

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## hollowedzeus

Just to end the beginning of this thread... ill explain what kind of things i experience...

I have experienced sexual disfuntion
Rare spontanious erections
Rare morning wood
Absolute zero sex drive
Very withdrawn from others generally
Slight anxiety sometimes.... (stimulants magnify this by 100000%)


I was thinking about it earlier and in regards to the sex drive, a way which i feel explains it perfectly... is that 1/3 of my body is working correctly.... 

Head and brain- not responding, i am not interested

Below the waist - not responding, probably would still have ed. Cialis is on its way as i type this

Heart- i know that when i see an attractive girl or someone i want to really like and win over... that i want to win them. I know i should be grafting and get fired in but it just doesnt compute... leaving me in a state where i just feel broken.


I told myself this was normal for me last year. Was never interested in sex with my ex. Always kept her happy so she didnt try anything with me.

I want this fixed. Now. But i am prepared to wait and do it sensibly

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## kelkel

> No worries i will type them out for good measure


To small and even blurry when expanded.

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## hollowedzeus

> To small and even blurry when expanded.


I edited them into my original post typed. 

What are your immediate thoughts on these levels kel?

My next test will include lh fsh and e2

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## kelkel

Are your shbg numbers typed accurately? I ask as you went from near the top of the range to near the bottom.

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## hollowedzeus

> Are your shbg numbers typed accurately? I ask as you went from near the top of the range to near the bottom.


Yes they are accurate. I was puzzled by this as my shbg halfed in the second test... yet my testosterone levels decreased

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## kelkel

> Yes they are accurate. I was puzzled by this as my shbg halfed in the second test... yet my testosterone levels decreased



Quite odd. If nothing else changed med wise maybe the test was flawed?

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## hollowedzeus

> Quite odd. If nothing else changed med wise maybe the test was flawed?


Very possible... i will no longer be doing blood tests through the nhs as they wont let me. So it will be different labs next time.

Also i Changed from 0 carbs to high carbs and a calorie restricion to a surplus... and my test decreases.... I was also suplementing with 50000iu of vit d per week and zma every night.

Cant wait to find out my lh and fsh values. In the nhs males dont need these to be drawn (yeah okay...) 

What time frame would you reccomend waiting from my last test to get more drawn?

Also thank you for the assistance

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## kelkel

> Cant wait to find out my lh and fsh values. In the nhs males dont need these to be drawn (yeah okay...) 
> 
> What time frame would you reccomend waiting from my last test to get more drawn?
> 
> Also thank you for the assistance



Minimum 3 months. More if you can be patient. Really brilliant of the NHS to not utilize those tests.

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## hollowedzeus

> Minimum 3 months. More if you can be patient. Really brilliant of the NHS to not utilize those tests.


Cheers. Will update when i get my bloods. Until then i shall suffer in silence :Smilie:

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## kelkel

> Cheers. Will update when i get my bloods. Until then i shall suffer in silence



A wee bit of whining is acceptable.

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## hollowedzeus

Might as well get some practice in for next time im at the docs telling them that its destroying my life

Edit- it is a major inconveinence and kills me inside but im not for killing myself....yet

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## hollowedzeus

Going to order my blood tests tonight i think. 
Dhea
Total test
Free test
Estridial 
Lh
Fsh
Shbg
Free androgen index

Probably going to be around £150 all in all. Whatever.

Not as sure if im going to put myself on clomid as much now.
1. It will delay any further testing for months
2. Ive researched clomid as a form of trt and ive only seen a handfull of men who like it.. these guys seem to vouch for hcg monotheropy also... i dont know if i want it to raise my levels.. also ive heard of bad reactions to it. I dont know, ill see
3. If it were come to it i would rather test vs clomid

Ill keep you updated

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## Quester

HI Zeus,
You may want to add DHT, tsh, cortisol, CBC, liver function and a lipid panel. The first three are exploratory and the last three are needed if you decide to start some form of TRT. And make sure your supplement intake doesn't interfere with the collection of these values.

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## hollowedzeus

Hey man, how important is dht to be tested? Its £100 a test here in the place that im going with.
Ive never had cortisol checked, unsure of the price, i shall have a look.

Ive had tsh, lipids,cbc and liver function. The results of them are up above. Most of them are in range. I think my cholesterol is just a little high and a couple of the liver values are out i believe. Tsh is fine so i guess that rules out thyroid issues. Relating to right now. 

I dont believe anything interferes with these values. I intermittently take d3 but i dont have much faith in it. I was taking 50000iu per week between 1st and 2nd blood tests and my total and free test decreased.

I hope there is something obviously wrong so i have an answer to be honest... like an lh of 10 or something.

Thankyou for your input as always quester

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## hammerheart

I don't see DHT to be of any peculiar importance in your situation, you can skip it just fine.

Heck I can get it done for £15 (20 eur).

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## hollowedzeus

Wish it was that cheap here.... i guess maybe dht could be relavent if too much testosterone is getting converted perhaps?
Leaving me with subnormal levels?

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## hammerheart

> Wish it was that cheap here.... i guess maybe dht could be relavent if too much testosterone is getting converted perhaps?
> Leaving me with subnormal levels?


How?

Even if you were to shutdown the 5-AR completely your levels gain would top at 15%, pretty much non-significant considering where you are at.

And you don't look high DHT at all lol.

If anything, your DHT is likely to be in range. 

Some should secreted by testes directly also.

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## hollowedzeus

> How?
> 
> Even if you were to shutdown the 5-AR completely your levels gain would top at 15%, pretty much non-significant considering where you are at.
> 
> And you don't look high DHT at all lol.
> 
> If anything, your DHT is likely to be in range. 
> 
> Some should secreted by testes directly also.


I was merely hazarding a guess. Im very interested in this sort of field of research but relativly new to it.

I dont know if i should take that as a compliment or an insult hah! I still have all my hair on my head and very little facial hair so i guess thats a sign that all is well in the dht department

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## hollowedzeus

Tests paid for. Waiting on the kit coming in then im off to get the blood drawn.

Something interesting this weekend. Had my blood pressure tested multiple times as i have been on a course.
In a social/people situation - 160/90 ish consistently 
On my own in the house without sitting trying to lower it 99/59

Calling possibly anxiety causing that

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## hollowedzeus

Blood test tuesday. Excited.

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## Myers

Following.

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## macmathews

On the wagon  :Smilie: 

Kyle

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## hollowedzeus

thanks guys

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## ThisIsMyJamZ

As others have said, don't have too much to add at the moment, but I'll be following this with interest. Best of luck!

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## geezuschrist

Just my two cents here.. they tried to put me on trt at 18 when my test level was 250-290 confirmed on multiple tests. The docs were dumbfounded at what was going on and kept asking if I had ever done aas. I had never in my life even thought about doing them or had ever done them before. So I took one shot back when I was 18 prescribed by a doc, but I didn't feel "right" about it. It was a pretty damn scary thought to be doing this forever and couldn't help but to think there was some other problem causing this. So I stopped after one shot and basically learned to live with my problem for 3 years. I finally came to a point and say fuck it I'm going to try this and see what happens. So I find a new doc that did at home weekly shots. In a month it's like I was a different person in 2 months it was crazy what testosterone did for me. My life totally changed from feeling better, to actually wanting girls again like I did when I was young. I couldn't believe I waited 3 years to feel good again. This isn't me telling you to get on trt but for me it got me my life back. I think you should really think long and hard about this, but for me I will never go back.

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## hollowedzeus

I can totally see where you are coming from, thanks for your input.

Id rather a shot for the rest of my life than feeling like this. Im not really a waiter tbh. I believe i can get trt. Most likely be easier privatly but i would like to go through the nhs since im already paying for it though tax.

I am getting lh and fsh and stuff testing tomorrow morning so we will see where it goes from there... if lh and fsh come back unremarkable my mind will be 100% set... since i still have the what if its not the right decision part in me...

Ive had multiple ultrasounds on my testicles - no tumours

I honestly just want to grab some test and start shooting it to feel better. Ive thought about it a couple of times but thats a road i dont really want to go down at this moment. 

People will probably tell me to get over it. Im only 18 trt is stupid. 

I feel like i need it. I want it. I may be wrong, i may be right. We will see how it goes. 

I will not accept that my testosterone is normal. I specifically made my first appointment for blood tests because i suspected low testosterone .

Rant over... thanks grex

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## geezuschrist

> I can totally see where you are coming from, thanks for your input.
> 
> Id rather a shot for the rest of my life than feeling like this. Im not really a waiter tbh. I believe i can get trt. Most likely be easier privatly but i would like to go through the nhs since im already paying for it though tax.
> 
> I am getting lh and fsh and stuff testing tomorrow morning so we will see where it goes from there... if lh and fsh come back unremarkable my mind will be 100% set... since i still have the what if its not the right decision part in me...
> 
> Ive had multiple ultrasounds on my testicles - no tumours
> 
> I honestly just want to grab some test and start shooting it to feel better. Ive thought about it a couple of times but thats a road i dont really want to go down at this moment. 
> ...


Yessir! I know what it's like to be in your shoes and wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I know it's a tough choice but for me it was life changing. I truly can't explain how different I am. From being all around happy, sex drive, just being what a young guy should be. Hey and the gainz aren't bad either 
Best of luck to you in whatever you choose to do Zeus!

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## hollowedzeus

Thanks alot man, i appreciate your input. We will soon see the route i will be going down :Smilie: 

Ill post up my results in a couple of days when i get them. Sitting outside the hospital with a red face because my blood pressure is through the roof trying to find this blood place.

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## hollowedzeus

Blood test 3 results




Pretty similar t levels to last one. Could someone comment on my lh and fsh? 

Thanks guys

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## hollowedzeus

Dhea-s 8.330 umol/l 0.44-13.40
Fsh 2.47iu/l 1.50-12.4
Lh 4.57 iu/l 1.70-8.60
Testosterone 11.2 nmol/l 7.60 - 31.40
Free test 0.236nmol/l 0.30-1.00
Shbg 27.8nmol/l 16-55
Oestradial 52pmol/l 0-191.99

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## hammerheart

With Free T below range and low E2 an average LH means your hypothalamus doesn't care about T levels. To me it sounds much like idiopathic, tertiary hypogonadism. 

Free T that low should also warrant you TRT if you seek it.

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## hollowedzeus

Thanks biz. I appreciate it. Unfortunate that theres nothing that shows an obvious cause...

My aim is on trt. Got a private appointment on the 23rd of august for a private clinic. Hoping for nebido.

I think im going to just suck it up and be paying for it. Perhaps try moving to the nhs in the future but my doctors didnt want anything to do with me atm. Im not 5 or 6nmol/l so im fine.

Ive read someone as low as 3nmol/l being rejected on the nhs.

I am looking into self castration for future reference

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## hammerheart

> I am looking into self castration for future reference


I have a fetish for that.

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## hollowedzeus

> I have a fetish for that.


Love my men castrated. Its my favourite.

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## hollowedzeus

I think ive made my decision. I may live to regret it however i have spent countless hours of research in the topic and have spoke to numerous individuals with similar circumstances to mine both on site and outside. Even spoke to some guys that work in the field.

Right now i think its the right choice. If i am offered nebido i am taking it. I feel i have to start privatly. Perhaps in the future i will try to shift to the nhs.

Thanks guys. I will keep this thread updated with my progress, i appreciate each and everyone who has helped me on my journey so far.

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## geezuschrist

> I think ive made my decision. I may live to regret it however i have spent countless hours of research in the topic and have spoke to numerous individuals with similar circumstances to mine both on site and outside. Even spoke to some guys that work in the field.
> 
> Right now i think its the right choice. If i am offered nebido i am taking it. I feel i have to start privatly. Perhaps in the future i will try to shift to the nhs.
> 
> Thanks guys. I will keep this thread updated with my progress, i appreciate each and everyone who has helped me on my journey so far.


Glad to hear! Just curious why nebido? I assume it's popular in the U.K. I love cypionate dosed twice a week.

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## hollowedzeus

> Glad to hear! Just curious why nebido? I assume it's popular in the U.K. I love cypionate dosed twice a week.


I hear pretty mucg everyone vouch for it. A few of the HOF in here are on it also.

For convienience, once everg 10ish weeks isnt so bad lol. My only other options are sustanon clomid or gel.

I will take what i can get but push for nebido :Smilie:

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## Quester

I'm going to research nebido. It would be nice not to feel tethered to my e3d dosing schedule.
Good Luck Champ!

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## hollowedzeus

> I'm going to research nebido. It would be nice not to feel tethered to my e3d dosing schedule.
> Good Luck Champ!


Ill need it lol thanks!

Im hoping he prescribes hcg too. So it will be e3d ish anyway.. however i supsect the hcg will be very expenive legally.

The days cant come fast enough right now

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## Quester

My HCG is about $90 vial (12,000 IU). It lasts longer than it's half life. A smaller vial from a regular pharmacy would be cheaper.

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## hollowedzeus

Not as bad as i thought then hopefully. Ive seen some crazy prices for pharma hcg lol.

Hope this clinic is up for it

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## hollowedzeus

On day one of a clomid trial as of today. 8 week duration

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## hollowedzeus

so far no relief from clomid just a dull headache

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## hollowedzeus

Week 1 of clomid done. No notable difference.

Not very impressed. Only effect was intermittent headaches which seem to have disappeared.

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## hollowedzeus

Week 2 update - no difference.

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## hollowedzeus

Week 3 nothing. Not going to bother updating any further. Its a waste of time. Will get bloods in october then chat to doc again.

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## geezuschrist

you're wasting your time with clomid brotha

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## MuscleScience

Where are your T levels at exactly before you started clomid?

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## Youthful55guy

> Dhea-s 8.330 umol/l 0.44-13.40
> Fsh 2.47iu/l 1.50-12.4
> Lh 4.57 iu/l 1.70-8.60
> Testosterone 11.2 nmol/l 7.60 - 31.40
> Free test 0.236nmol/l 0.30-1.00
> Shbg 27.8nmol/l 16-55
> Oestradial 52pmol/l 0-191.99


I agree with your assessment that there is no obvious cause. I disagree with another poster that it is hypothalamic in origin. Both your LH and FSH are within range, even though the FSH is on the low end. You would not anticipate these results with either a hypothalamic deficiency of GnRH or a pituitary insensitivity. Keep in mind that the hormones are pulsatile in nature and it usually takes multiple tests to nail down a secondary hypogonadalism diagnosis.

The problem appears to be more primary in origin. Your Total T is at the low end of the range (though still within range) and your Free T is low. Given that your SHBG is within range, it points to a T synthesis problem within the testicles. Did you ever suffer an injury to the testicles? Have you been checked for a testicular varicocele? The latter is important, as it is potentially correctable with minor surgery.

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## Youthful55guy

> I think ive made my decision. I may live to regret it however i have spent countless hours of research in the topic and have spoke to numerous individuals with similar circumstances to mine both on site and outside. Even spoke to some guys that work in the field.
> 
> Right now i think its the right choice. If i am offered nebido i am taking it. I feel i have to start privatly. Perhaps in the future i will try to shift to the nhs.
> 
> Thanks guys. I will keep this thread updated with my progress, i appreciate each and everyone who has helped me on my journey so far.


I have no advice to offer on Nebido, as I have never tried. I have read posts of guys being disappointed on it because it did not live up to the claims of ultra long duration of effectiveness. Seems to me that close monitoring of TT levels would be necessary during the first couple of injection cycles to determine you personal injection frequency.

As for me, I've been on an E3D schedule of T-cyp for nearly 6 years and have no plans to change. It was a God sent for my life and see no reason to change. I particularly like that with more frequent dosing, the volume you need to inject is very small (0.2 to 0.25 mL). This allows me to use 28G one-piece insulin syringes which are readily and inexpensively available without prescription in most states in the USA.

As for HCG , I would insist on it at your age to preserve your options to have children some day. It should be an easy sell to a physician. Keep in mind though that is you are primary hypogonadic, your response to the exogenous source of the LD/FSH analogue may be diminished too. Worth a trial though. I recommend dosing at least 3X per week, with a total weekly dose of 500-1000 IU.

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## hammerheart

> I agree with your assessment that there is no obvious cause. I disagree with another poster that it is hypothalamic in origin. Both your LH and FSH are within range, even though the FSH is on the low end. You would not anticipate these results with either a hypothalamic deficiency of GnRH or a pituitary insensitivity. Keep in mind that the hormones are pulsatile in nature and it usually takes multiple tests to nail down a secondary hypogonadalism diagnosis.
> 
> The problem appears to be more primary in origin. Your Total T is at the low end of the range (though still within range) and your Free T is low. Given that your SHBG is within range, it points to a T synthesis problem within the testicles. Did you ever suffer an injury to the testicles? Have you been checked for a testicular varicocele? The latter is important, as it is potentially correctable with minor surgery.


I actually agree with you something doesn't look alright at primary level and being unresponsive to clomid might suggest that too, bloods will tell what's what.

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## Youthful55guy

> I actually agree with you something doesn't look alright at primary level and being unresponsive to clomid might suggest that too, bloods will tell what's what.


That was my thought to and I was going to question the value of a trial of clomid when gonadotropins are already within a normal range. Although, there may be some benefit to artificially enhancing gonadotropins in the face of testicular receptor desensitizing (as opposed primary testicular dysfunction). However, given the potential for estrogenic side-effects of clomid therapy, I do question long term use of the drug. Furthermore, I don't see any chatter of actual doses involved. My experience with clomid is that as long as I keep the dose at or below 12.5 mg per day, the estrogenic side-effects are minimal, but going above that, the effects are progressive.

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## hollowedzeus

> I agree with your assessment that there is no obvious cause. I disagree with another poster that it is hypothalamic in origin. Both your LH and FSH are within range, even though the FSH is on the low end. You would not anticipate these results with either a hypothalamic deficiency of GnRH or a pituitary insensitivity. Keep in mind that the hormones are pulsatile in nature and it usually takes multiple tests to nail down a secondary hypogonadalism diagnosis.
> 
> The problem appears to be more primary in origin. Your Total T is at the low end of the range (though still within range) and your Free T is low. Given that your SHBG is within range, it points to a T synthesis problem within the testicles. Did you ever suffer an injury to the testicles? Have you been checked for a testicular varicocele? The latter is important, as it is potentially correctable with minor surgery.


Thank you for taking the time to respond :Smilie: 

I have been had two ultrasounds in the past two years screening for testicular cancer. 2nd one i was told i had an appendix on my testicle. Its a very obvious lump that freaked the hell out of me.

Im assuming this would rule out varicocele?

I have test cyp at home but im definetly waiting to get test properly. Dont want to go down swlf treatment unless i absoultely have to.. 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## hollowedzeus

> I have no advice to offer on Nebido, as I have never tried. I have read posts of guys being disappointed on it because it did not live up to the claims of ultra long duration of effectiveness. Seems to me that close monitoring of TT levels would be necessary during the first couple of injection cycles to determine you personal injection frequency.
> 
> As for me, I've been on an E3D schedule of T-cyp for nearly 6 years and have no plans to change. It was a God sent for my life and see no reason to change. I particularly like that with more frequent dosing, the volume you need to inject is very small (0.2 to 0.25 mL). This allows me to use 28G one-piece insulin syringes which are readily and inexpensively available without prescription in most states in the USA.
> 
> As for HCG, I would insist on it at your age to preserve your options to have children some day. It should be an easy sell to a physician. Keep in mind though that is you are primary hypogonadic, your response to the exogenous source of the LD/FSH analogue may be diminished too. Worth a trial though. I recommend dosing at least 3X per week, with a total weekly dose of 500-1000 IU.


I also agree that hcg sounds like the best idea. Do you reckon ill be prescribed it? I may or may not take it depending on price as i know its very easily sourced...

Seems ill be on an e3d schedule nebido or not lol.

I feel it will also change my life for the better. Only time will tell :Smilie: 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## hollowedzeus

> you're wasting your time with clomid brotha


I know. I know haha.

I asked for nebido but the doc insisted due to my age

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## hollowedzeus

> Where are your T levels at exactly before you started clomid?


Plasma glucose level 4.5mmol/L - range 3.0-6.0

CALCIUM
serum albumin 54g/L - 35-50

Corrected serum calcium level 2.32mmol/L -range 2.20 - 2.60

serum lipids

Serum cholesterol 4.4mmol/L - range 0.0-5.0

Total cholesterol HDL RATIO 3.1

Serum triglycerides 0.60mmol/L - range 0.00-2.30

Serum HDL cholesterol levels 1.41mmol/L -range 0.90-1.80

Serum LDL cholesterol levels 2.7mmol/L -range 0.0-3.0

LIVER FUNCTION
Serum albumin - 54g/L - range 35-50
Serum alkaline phosphatase 79U/L - range 65-210
Serum alanine aminotransferase level 29U/L - range 5-55
Serum bilirubin 12umol/L - range 0-20

UREA AND ELECTROLYTES
Serum bicarbonate 27mmol/L - range 22-29
Serum chloride 101mmol/L - range 95-108
Serum sodium 145mmol/L - range 133-146
Serum creatinine 81umol/L - range 71-123
Estimated EGFR >59
Serum urea level 6.1mmol/L - range 2.5-7.8

THYROID
free t4 level 14.4pmol/L - range 9.p-21.0
Serum TSH level 1.32mU/L - range 0.20-5.00

VITIMIN D
Vitimin d 32nmol/L - range 25-170

TESTOSTERONE 
Serum sex hormone binding globulin level 44.9nmol/L - range 17.00-56.0

Serum testosterone 16.70nmol/L - range 8.60-29.00

Calculated free testosterone 286pmol/L - range 200-620




Bloodwork 2

FBC
haemoglobin estimation - 15.2g/dl range -13.5-18

Mean corpuscular volume 94.2fl range 80-100

Platelet count315x10^9/l range 140-450

Total white vlood count 7x10^9/l range 4-11

Neutrophil count 3.9x10^9/l range 2-7.5

Lymphocyte count 2.4x10^9/l range 1-4

Monocyte count 0.6x10^9/l range 0.2-0.8

Eosinophil count 0.1x10^9/L range 0-0.4

Basophil count 0x10^9/L range 0-0.1

Rbc 4.98x10^12/L range 4.50-6.50

Haemocrit 0.469l/l range 0.400- 0.540

Mean corpuse haemoglobin 30.5pg range - 27-32

Mean corpuse hb conc32.4g/dl range- 32-36

Red blood cell distribution width 13.1% range - 11-16

Nucleated red blood cell count 0.01x10^9/L


LIVER FUNCTION
Serum albumin - 50g/L - range 35-50
Serum alkaline phosphatase 91U/L - range 65-210
Serum alanine aminotransferase level 67U/L - range 5-55
Serum bilirubin 7umol/L - range 0-20

UREA AND ELECTROLYTES
Serum bicarbonate 29mmol/L - range 22-29
Serum chloride 98mmol/L - range 95-108
Serum creatinine 89umol/L - range 71-123
Estimated EGFR >59
Serum urea level 4.1mmol/L - range 2.5-7.8


TESTOSTERONE
Serum sex hormone binding globulin level 21.8nmol/L - range 17.00-56.0

Serum testosterone 9.40nmol/L - range 8.60-29.00

Calculated free testosterone 228pmol/L - range 200-620




Bloodwork 3
Dhea-s 8.330 umol/l 0.44-13.40
Fsh 2.47iu/l 1.50-12.4
Lh 4.57 iu/l 1.70-8.60
Testosterone 11.2 nmol/l 7.60 - 31.40
Free test 0.236nmol/l 0.30-1.00
Shbg 27.8nmol/l 16-55
Oestradial 52pmol/l 0-191.99



Summary.

Last 2 blood works 9.4nmol/l total and 226pmol/l free
& 11.2nmol/l and 236pmol/l.

Too low and i believe i am feeling the effects.

Im not so sure my test will evem be elevated on clomid. I feel no difference

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## hammerheart

> That was my thought to and I was going to question the value of a trial of clomid when gonadotropins are already within a normal range. Although, there may be some benefit to artificially enhancing gonadotropins in the face of testicular receptor desensitizing (as opposed primary testicular dysfunction). However, given the potential for estrogenic side-effects of clomid therapy, I do question long term use of the drug. Furthermore, I don't see any chatter of actual doses involved. My experience with clomid is that as long as I keep the dose at or below 12.5 mg per day, the estrogenic side-effects are minimal, but going above that, the effects are progressive.


From my understanding any T elevating effect from clomid is going to be offset by concomitant upregulation of SHBG, as the molecule will act as plain agonist in the liver, but with the balance further hindered by testicular, excessive secretion of E2 elicited by continuous stimulation from LH as opposed to natural, pulsatile secretion of the latter.

The result would be, going by paper, estrogen sides, but I have never tried it myself - likely never will - it's just my theoretical point of view.

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## Youthful55guy

> From my understanding any T elevating effect from clomid is going to be offset by concomitant upregulation of SHBG, as the molecule will act as plain agonist in the liver, but with the balance further hindered by testicular, excessive secretion of E2 elicited by continuous stimulation from LH as opposed to natural, pulsatile secretion of the latter.
> 
> The result would be, going by paper, estrogen sides, but I have never tried it myself - likely never will - it's just my theoretical point of view.


I'm not aware of Clomid having a stimulatory effect on SHBG production. What is the source of this information?

I don't think clomid affects the pulsatile nature of LH. My (all be it, limited) understanding of Clomid is that it selectively binds to estrogen receptors in the brain but has minimal estrogen activity. This prevents estradiol from binding to those receptors. In both men and women, E2 is the predominant inhibitory feedback signal to hypothalamic secretion of GnRH. So, by preventing the negative feedback, clomid up-regulates GnRH production but (to my knowledge) it does not disrupt the pulsatile nature of the hormone. Indeed, my own research in animals many years ago, as well as several other researchers since that time, has shown that GnRH must be secreted in a pulsatile fashion, otherwise there is very rapid down regulation of GnRH receptors in the pituitary. By rapid, I mean within hours.

Clomid, we know from clinical use, can be administered for an indefinite period of time without losing the LH signal, which provides evidence that the pulsatile nature of GnRH is maintained.

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## hollowedzeus

Bloods done. Got some snash off the nurse.

'Who asked for these tests? What doctor? Oh... hes not from this surgery....?

Oh well cant wait for next weeks fight when i go back for results.

'Youre fine. Everything looks fine'
'Fuckin gimme my results'

Bet she charges me for the paper. She threatened to last time

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## hollowedzeus

BLOOD WORK UPDATE POST CLOMID


Apparently ive became superman.... i dont feel it trust me.

High estro explains the fun going on behind my nipples


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## marcus300

> BLOOD WORK UPDATE POST CLOMID
> 
> 
> Apparently ive became superman.... i dont feel it trust me.
> 
> High estro explains the fun going on behind my nipples
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Lets hope he re-tests you in 6 weeks time and doesn't let these numbers dictate on how to treat your problems now, but hey look at you and that good old testosterone going on

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## hollowedzeus

> Lets hope he re-tests you in 6 weeks time and doesn't let these numbers dictate on how to treat your problems now, but hey look at you and that good old testosterone going on


Its like getting promised a present that just keeps getting promised and never followed through lol....

We shall see how he responds.... favourably i hope. Many thanks for your assistance thus far

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## hollowedzeus

New protocol - 25mg clomid eod with adex

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## hollowedzeus

I am developing gynocomastia. Bad lumps behind my left nipple. A little bit behind my right.

Doesnt look too bad in the picture but theres a puffyness and they are noticibly worrying to people that have saw it.

Last couple of weeks of 25mg clomid eod and 0.25 arimidex twice a week.
Another largely waste of time but i was pretty horny for a couple of days last week. 
That was weird.....

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## hollowedzeus

Emailed my trt doc about being taken off clomid and put on nebido. 

I am going down to see him next week.

Been blasting my gyno with 40mg of nolva and now 20mg. Its going away.




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## hollowedzeus

Recieved my first nebido injection today. Very pleased.

Thank you to all who helped me on my journey

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## Trembolono

hi! 
I hope you recover and go better. How are you planning the training? The nutrition? Could you upload a picture of your current status and how are you evolving? Thank you

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## hollowedzeus

> hi! 
> I hope you recover and go better. How are you planning the training? The nutrition? Could you upload a picture of your current status and how are you evolving? Thank you


Hi mate hows it going. Thank you!

I went off the rails leading up to the trt appointment eating junk food but before tht it was pretty spot on. Generally ate 800g of chicken a day, 750g rice and 200g of oats. Oil and other things in there too. So very clean.

Training - i follow marcus with his HIT style of training. Similar to dorian yates style. Heavy and hard going past failure.

Pre trt t levels came out 10ish nmol/l average.
Never had a problem building muscle despite this.

Pictures are april - november 

Sitting around 92kg atm :Smilie: 

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## SwoleAnchelada

Definitely following this post, I'm a sucker for thorough documentation of progress! Keep it up!

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## hollowedzeus

Feel terrific this morning. Very horny. Good sense of wellbeing and cialis is working better at lower doses.

Feeling great

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## hollowedzeus

Nhs have taken over the cost of nebido treatment and blood tests.

I am seeing a very knowledgable private doctor gor no extra cash and getting free treatment.... i wish all you low t guys got such red carpet treatment at the finish line....

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## ghettoboyd

> Nhs have taken over the cost of nebido treatment and blood tests.
> 
> I am seeing a very knowledgable private doctor gor no extra cash and getting free treatment.... i wish all you low t guys got such red carpet treatment at the finish line....


good for you brother!...nice...

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## hollowedzeus

This week is going to kill me. Itching to pin... need to wait till next Wednesday 

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## cousinmuscles

Do you get to inject yourself? They tell me I can't but they don't keep track of when they administer it. I pick the vial up from the pharmacy and am supposed to go to a health center for injections. Tried it for the first shot, damn the nurse was a dummy, told her 1 min per ML "don't worry the oil is so thick it will go slow" got done in 40-50 seconds. Felt worse than test suspension and tren suspension together but no PIP though...

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## hollowedzeus

> Do you get to inject yourself? They tell me I can't but they don't keep track of when they administer it. I pick the vial up from the pharmacy and am supposed to go to a health center for injections. Tried it for the first shot, damn the nurse was a dummy, told her 1 min per ML "don't worry the oil is so thick it will go slow" got done in 40-50 seconds. Felt worse than test suspension and tren suspension together but no PIP though...


Nah mate im in the same boat as you. I dont think the health centre and the docs communicate. Jist went and picked mine up from the pharmacy.

Told the health centre my doc was okay with a 'close family friend' who is a 'nurse'  :Wink:  doing it. So she is... lolol.

Its my health and my responsibility so ill be pinning myself

Need to order bigger needles. All i have is 23g. Ordering some 16g for drawing

Congrats on getting nebido mate.

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## hollowedzeus

Pinned my 6 week booster of nebido yesterday. The injection was oddly satisfying.

I used an 18g to drawn and 23g to pin in my arse incase anyone was interested.

Was really worried if i was pinning in the right place but it seems to have worked. Top of my arse, borderline hips.


Bloodwork in 4 weeks.
Been very panicky the past few days... probably unrealted but had an internal meltdown today.

Anyway.... was excited to pin and it didnt dissapoint

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## hollowedzeus

First nebido bw on thursday

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## hollowedzeus

Forgot to update with bloodwork.

This is 4 weeks after my booster shot.


Im now off of nolva tht ive been using to combat gyno reinduced by the clomid. It was giving me extremely painful headaches during climax and also training.

Due my next shot end of march then bloods is may/june


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## hollowedzeus

Collected my 3rd vial. Pinning wednesday.

Im feeling a severe dip in levels at the moment. Cant wait to pin.

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## Quester

Great to hear your finally getting the treatment you need! Since you will probably be on the Nebido for the rest of your life, perhaps you should consider storing your sperm? It wouldn't be fair to deny my children a chance to set things right and best your children in a contest.

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## hollowedzeus

> Great to hear your finally getting the treatment you need! Since you will probably be on the Nebido for the rest of your life, perhaps you should consider storing your sperm? It wouldn't be fair to deny my children a chance to set things right and best your children in a contest.


Lolol i like that idea :Wink: 
I
registered to get it done and only had to make the appointment. Unfortunatly the costs are astronomical.... far too much. Its like a grand to set up and 500 quid a year. I cant particulary afford to do that.

If i was hell bent on having children i might have forced a way to do it but i dont particularly want children.
Now i know im only 19 and i might very well change my mind. So im waiting to see if i can wangle a hcg script... if not ill self medicate hcg. Its easy to get from sources.

Its one of those things. I may well regret my decision but its the path im going down :Smilie: 

Honestly itching to pin this next shot. Im dying for it.

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## Youthful55guy

> Lolol i like that idea
> I
> registered to get it done and only had to make the appointment. Unfortunatly the costs are astronomical.... far too much. Its like a grand to set up and 500 quid a year. I cant particulary afford to do that.
> 
> If i was hell bent on having children i might have forced a way to do it but i dont particularly want children.
> Now i know im only 19 and i might very well change my mind. So im waiting to see if i can wangle a hcg script... if not ill self medicate hcg. Its easy to get from sources.
> 
> Its one of those things. I may well regret my decision but its the path im going down
> 
> Honestly itching to pin this next shot. Im dying for it.


Unless you have underdeveloped or otherwise damaged testicles, you should be fine if you obtain and regularly use HCG. Doses of 500 to 1000 IU per week in at least 3 split doses are necessary, but it should maintain fertility. I've read posts numerous guys with successful pregnancy at 500 IU. Research I've read is that the optimal amount is about 1000 IU.

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## hollowedzeus

> Unless you have underdeveloped or otherwise damaged testicles, you should be fine if you obtain and regularly use HCG. Doses of 500 to 1000 IU per week in at least 3 split doses are necessary, but it should maintain fertility. I've read posts numerous guys with successful pregnancy at 500 IU. Research I've read is that the optimal amount is about 1000 IU.


My testicles are developed in the sense that they arr of normal size but i never produced the proper amount of testosterone . Unsure whether the issue was primary or secondary, so i can only hope hcg will work.




> Dhea-s 8.330 umol/l 0.44-13.40
> Fsh 2.47iu/l 1.50-12.4
> Lh 4.57 iu/l 1.70-8.60
> Testosterone 11.2 nmol/l 7.60 - 31.40
> Free test 0.236nmol/l 0.30-1.00
> Shbg 27.8nmol/l 16-55
> Oestradial 52pmol/l 0-191.99


My last non trt blood work. Lh and fsh were semi normal i think so that would lead the problem to be more primary in nature.

Unsure though. Im a strange case.

Not sure im going to be able to get hcg prescribed but i will definetly be taking it once i get dialed in and on yearly blood work

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## hammerheart

> Great to hear your finally getting the treatment you need! Since you will probably be on the Nebido for the rest of your life, perhaps you should consider storing your sperm? It wouldn't be fair to deny my children a chance to set things right and best your children in a contest.


Am I the only one here that might as well get his balls cut in order not to have kids? Perhaps a generational thing.

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## hollowedzeus

3rd nebido pin.

Leg was extreme sore last night. I couldnt aspirate without wiggling the needle an immense amount in the muscle as i didnt have the flexibility to twist round.
Also my fingers are too weak to pull back the plunger. Was a fucking nightmare to push the oil through.

But then, cold muscle cold oil lol

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## thisAngelBites

> With Free T below range and low E2 an average LH means your hypothalamus doesn't care about T levels. To me it sounds much like idiopathic, tertiary hypogonadism. 
> 
> Free T that low should also warrant you TRT if you seek it.


Why doesn't his hypothalamus care? I am guessing bc it is prioritising something else. I would check cortisol and expect it's high or low.

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## hammerheart

> Why doesn't his hypothalamus care? I am guessing bc it is prioritising something else. I would check cortisol and expect it's high or low.


I believe it's just physiologic in its case, a distinct causative factor or set thereof can't just be found sometimes.

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## Mr.BB

You are supposed to inject nebido in glute. Different muscle will have different absortion rates.

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## hollowedzeus

> You are supposed to inject nebido in glute. Different muscle will have different absortion rates.


I did inject in the glute. I worded it wrongly.

I pinned my left cheek but got a very painful sciatica feeling for over a day with pain running down my leg.

Theres no way i hit a nerve as i basically pinned my hip

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## Mr.BB

> I did inject in the glute. I worded it wrongly.
> 
> I pinned my left cheek but got a very painful sciatica feeling for over a day with pain running down my leg.
> 
> Theres no way i hit a nerve as i basically pinned my hip


Ahh ok, sorry. If its only for a day its no problem at all.

I've long gave up on using normal needles for nebido, 20g thats what I use. Trying to use a 5ml syringe with a 25g, with nebido thick oil is a no go.

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## hollowedzeus

> Ahh ok, sorry. If its only for a day its no problem at all.
> 
> I've long gave up on using normal needles for nebido, 20g thats what I use. Trying to use a 5ml syringe with a 25g, with nebido thick oil is a no go.


No worries it was my poor explanation lol.

I think i caused some damage wiggling the needle because i couldnt reach it with my other hand lolol.

I pinned with a 23g, very hard to push it through the needle. Takes forever

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## hollowedzeus

Next pin is due soon. Blood work on tuesday.

I feel like an 8 week protocol would suit me better but im on 10 so need to suck it up. The dip is pretty bad the now

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