# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  size over strength

## garythompson

I've been thinking lately about how some people have larger muscles and are weaker than some people that have smaller muscles. I was wondering how these people became the way they are. What did they do that makes their muscles different than the other guys. I know some people say body builders never really do super heavy sets and look at how big their muscles are. And _sometimes_ you look at power lifters and they don't really seem that big. But then they go benchpress 7 or 8 hundred pounds. So what makes them different? Diet? lifting techniques? amount of sets? resting? I know body builders do a lot of sets, so maybe their muscles are super compensating for how low their glycogen levels were and filling them back up with even more and that's what makes them big???

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## countrybhoy

wondered that myself . we have a lad in our gym . he is no more than 10 stone . skin and bones . but the sheer strength in him is amazing . ive seen him out lift much heavier and better built guys .

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## garythompson

yeah, and I wonder how this is possible. can anyone shed any light on this topic?

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## skeldno

I have a good mate and i dont think he will even weigh 9 stone lol but he is so strong! he beats everyone at arm wrestles and can throw his mums bloke clean over his should and he must weigh 12st! I would love to get him down the gym!!!!

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## jamyjamjr

think density and volume.... for example.. someone may be holding on to more water, which would mean less muscle fiber, but those muscle fibers are swolen with water... hence the larger muscle. u can see this all the time with test cycles... guys retain water and look bigger, but they lose it post cycle... someone with a smaller muscle which has more muscle fiber in it is ALWAYS gonna be stronger then the bloated guy..... jmo...

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## jamyjamjr

also.. technique is very key.. ie when you do a bench press and you put your elbows at a ninty degree angle paralel to your body length compared to your bodywidth, you'd pick up much more weight cuz your activating your triceps and taking away from the isolation of the chest

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## garythompson

so would depleting the muscles of glycogen and allowing your body to super compensate make muscles bigger even though they may not be stronger?

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## powerliftmike

The response on muscle fiber is kinda wrong..after puberty the amount of muscle cells you have doesnt change (perhaps with igf and gh tho..) but size can change greatly (training and AAS).

If you are comparing powerlifting to bodybuilding training, it is quite simple. basically comes down to hypertrophy training vs. strength training. Heavy weights low reps trains muscle and CNS to become stronger. Higher reps (repetition or bodybuilding method) increases muscle size more bc of glycogen, water and other factors. Most idiots in the gym say "higher reps for toning", its actually the opposite..strong muscle=toned muscle=low reps (max effort and dynamic effort training) mass=high reps

its complicated stuff how the body adapts to different training styles, but maybe that helps.

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## powerliftmike

> also.. technique is very key.. ie when you do a bench press and you put your elbows at a ninty degree angle paralel to your body length compared to your bodywidth, you'd pick up much more weight cuz your activating your triceps and taking away from the isolation of the chest


everyone has their optimal grip position depending on individual biomechanics. as a basic rule of thumb tho, the wider the grip the more weight. wider grip shortens range of motion and uses greater degree of pecs.

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## garythompson

> The response on muscle fiber is kinda wrong..after puberty the amount of muscle cells you have doesnt change (perhaps with igf and gh tho..) but size can change greatly (training and AAS).
> 
> If you are comparing powerlifting to bodybuilding training, it is quite simple. basically comes down to hypertrophy training vs. strength training. Heavy weights low reps trains muscle and CNS to become stronger. Higher reps (repetition or bodybuilding method) increases muscle size more bc of glycogen, water and other factors. Most idiots in the gym say "higher reps for toning", its actually the opposite..strong muscle=toned muscle=low reps (max effort and dynamic effort training) mass=high reps
> 
> its complicated stuff how the body adapts to different training styles, but maybe that helps.



so high reps will cause hypertrophy? is that because glycogen depletion?

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## jamyjamjr

> everyone has their optimal grip position depending on individual biomechanics. as a basic rule of thumb tho, the wider the grip the more weight. wider grip shortens range of motion and uses greater degree of pecs.


would't u say you use aux muscle when you widen that grip??? iv watched plenty of pro w/o video's on the net that teach you to isolate... in example doing preacher curls will isolate a bicep more then a standing curl.... widening your stance will give you more power on a squat because you activate more muscle in a more optimum manner... 

point being.. if you wanna power lift, you use the techniques to active more muscle, if you wanna better stimulate growth, you need to isolate..

i know guys who can bench 350+ easy, but their chest is lacking compaired to someone who's benching 100lbs less then that in an isolating matter

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## garythompson

I am more or less asking only about how many reps or weight to use to increase muscle size, not caring about raising my max, just increase muscle size.

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## jamyjamjr

there are many ways to do it.. you can go low weight and high rep and gain mass or you can get intense and go high weight low rep... iv down low weight high rep and seen some pretty damn good gains... im trying high weight lower reps this time... something like 40,60,90,80 percent of max 16-24 sets, matters on the workout day

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## garythompson

what the hell! 16-24 sets! that's crazy, i only do 7-10 sets and get sore for a long time. i recently decided to take a small break because I was over training (felt weaker and fatigued, almost sick). I work out the same muscles once every 3 days.

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## SuperLift

> what the hell! 16-24 sets! that's crazy, i only do 7-10 sets and get sore for a long time. i recently decided to take a small break because I was over training (felt weaker and fatigued, almost sick). I work out the same muscles once every 3 days.


No wonder your not growing like you would like! Thats way to much bro!

You need to at least double that! NO MORE than 1 muscle every 7 days.

Go for 12-16 reps.. no reason to do more

ie
day1 legs
day2 shoulders
day3 rest
day4 back
day5 chest
day6 arms
day7 rest

Lift moderate-heavy weight 8-12 reps should be good. 
Make sure youre eating roughly 150g fat 400-500g carbs 350g protein CLEAN *Limit 2 shakes per day* (weight gainer included)

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## jamyjamjr

> No wonder your not growing like you would like! Thats way to much bro!
> 
> You need to at least double that! NO MORE than 1 muscle every 7 days.
> 
> Go for 12-16 reps.. no reason to do more
> 
> ie
> day1 legs
> day2 shoulders
> ...


i think you got it twisted... i said 16-24 SETS... i dont think that's too much at all... 4 exercises 4 sets each is actually just perfect... dunno why you feel otherwise

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## SuperLift

lol yes sorry, meant to say 12-16 sets, 8-12 reps each.

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## jamyjamjr

i end up doing like 24 sets on arm days.. 12 for bi's and 12 for tri's minimum...

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## SuperLift

sounds about what i do

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## garythompson

i thought you meant 24 sets per muscle. i would be at the gym forever!

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## jamyjamjr

haha... lol... well, like i said, matters to the day... ie leg and arm days i do closer to 24 sets

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## powerliftmike

> would't u say you use aux muscle when you widen that grip??? iv watched plenty of pro w/o video's on the net that teach you to isolate... in example doing preacher curls will isolate a bicep more then a standing curl.... widening your stance will give you more power on a squat because you activate more muscle in a more optimum manner... 
> 
> point being.. if you wanna power lift, you use the techniques to active more muscle, if you wanna better stimulate growth, you need to isolate..
> 
> i know guys who can bench 350+ easy, but their chest is lacking compaired to someone who's benching 100lbs less then that in an isolating matter


Generally wider is better, definently is for me. You transfer load to more powerful muscle groups: hips, glutes, and pecs (if talking about squat and bench respectively) and shorten range of motion. When equipped you will get more out the equipment too using a wider stance.

Alot of big benchers these days have proportionally undeveloped chest mainly from bench shirt carryovers.

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## powerliftmike

> so high reps will cause hypertrophy? is that because glycogen depletion?


Yes, also water and pumps, the old saying that you will grow into your pump applies here. You can do low reps and get hypertrophy too tho. the key to this bodybuilding training is to exhaust the muscle with training to failure. For strength gains dont ever train to failure on your sets, but do use heavy weights if that makes sense.

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## domeyeahaigh

interesting thread...

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## fitguy

first time to hear that high reps causes more growth than low reps,how come is that?

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## garythompson

I got answers both way to tell the truth. I have this thread saying one thing and a differnt thread saying the opposite. to tell the truth I don't think it matters a whole lot for size gains. although right now i'm on the rep training and i'm going to see how it works for me. I know I get a little more sore usually for me when doing high reps, but apparently soreness doesn't mean anything.

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## jamyjamjr

you can always run a 12 10 8 6.. that gives me a great pump.. but i switch it up

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## garythompson

high reps always give me the best pumps and sore longer. i don't know what you guys are all talking about when you say i shouldn't be sore from working out. My muscles are ALWAYS sore for days after working out. no matter what routine or what muscle. I usually switch between high reps and high weight every week or so. whenever i come back to high weight from high reps, i always lift more weight. I guess i'm getting stronger both ways equally. but i'd rather lift high reps. better pumps and seems to make better size...

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## godhainder

I have found the best results when I begin my first set as a warm-up set. For instance on the incline bench I might knock 15 reps with 135, then I go up to 185 knock out ten. Then 225 4-5 times for two more sets. I progressively increase the amount of weight as opposed to most others I encounter who gradually decrease the amount of weight. I have noticed increases in both size and strength whilst applying this method to my various workout regimens. Focus on form. Unless you are powerlifting, try limiting momentum assistance and excessive back-flexion/arching. Focus on flexing the particular muscle group you are training at the peak of the particular movement, i.e. flexing your bicep at the top of an arm curl.

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## quarry206

powerlifters train thier CNS and also work on the big three and not a wild rang typically.. also when you are doing a powerlifting workout u take longer breaks between sets, sometimes between 4-6 mins, you might do 6 sets of 3 with 5min breaks making each set a max effort..

bodybuilders train there muscles to failuire by causing hypertrophy. by forcing the muscle to failuire you cause it to grow is size but not strength. bodybuilders will usually take a 1-3 min rest period between sets so that the muscle never has time to rest.

powerlifters- 70-95% of 1RM for 4-5 sets max reps of 5 4-6min rest period
bodybuilders bodybuilders- 50-75% of 1RM for 3-4 sets of 6-10 reps 1-3 min rest periods

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## Cam09

> powerlifters train thier CNS and also work on the big three and not a wild rang typically.. also when you are doing a powerlifting workout u take longer breaks between sets, sometimes between 4-6 mins, you might do 6 sets of 3 with 5min breaks making each set a max effort..
> 
> bodybuilders train there muscles to failuire by causing hypertrophy. by forcing the muscle to failuire you cause it to grow is size but not strength. bodybuilders will usually take a 1-3 min rest period between sets so that the muscle never has time to rest.
> 
> powerlifters- 70-95% of 1RM for 4-5 sets max reps of 5 4-6min rest period
> bodybuilders bodybuilders- 50-75% of 1RM for 3-4 sets of 6-10 reps 1-3 min rest periods


Good post Quarry, I would also say alot of it is genetics. Those who are predominantly fast twitch muscle fiber will gain alot of size more than those who are not. And some freaky slow twitch guys are extremely strong but simply will not gain mass

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## mho

> wondered that myself . we have a lad in our gym . he is no more than 10 stone . skin and bones . but the sheer strength in him is amazing . ive seen him out lift much heavier and better built guys .


I can't figure you out. Texas flag in avatar but you're obviously not from Texas. Cowboys fan?  :Hmmmm:

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## bma33

great thread, thanks for all the info. I have been warming up then progressing up to heavy triples then doing 4 sets of heavy triples last 2 sets I usually need spot assistance on the 3rd rep. I was hoping for strength and size am I on the right track or should I back the weight down and go for 6-8 reps??

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## Gappa

many people say to me I should be lifting MUCH more than I do as big as I am.. It has to be a combination of genetics/muscle density and biomechanics which would relate to leverage. The leverage being how long your bones are relevant to where each muscle tendon end inserts.. There are many exercises I am VERY strong at and others I think I suck at. Example... I am 250lbs about 13%bf and I can only flat bench 275/285 for 1 or 2 rep max, but I can incline DB press 120lbs for 6 or so reps.. I squat 405 for 7 reps all the way to the floor. And DL 495 for a few reps.. SO why can't I bench over 300??
90% of those short guys are able to bench so much more than me, I assume because of the short throw leverage in their arms.. Right?? maybe???

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## selvanus

I don't know about anyone else, but I've found that my best gains come in the 6-8 rep range. Before, I worked out inconsistently and only gained a few pounds. Ive changed to doing 12-16 sets with the most weight that I can handle for six to eight reps, every five days. In the last 3 months I have gained 23 lbs and added 40 lbs to my bench press. Ive only supplemented with creatine and a multivitamin up until last week. From my experience, and the experience of those who trained me, that seems to be the best rep range for growth. by the way, training the same muscle groups every three days seems like a sure way to burn out. i get sore after every training session for a couple of days too, but when you do that, it's good to wait a couple of days after you feel better to train that muscle again, just to give it a chance to heal properly, otherwise you go into overtraining.

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## thabeastmaster

> many people say to me I should be lifting MUCH more than I do as big as I am.. It has to be a combination of genetics/muscle density and biomechanics which would relate to leverage. The leverage being how long your bones are relevant to where each muscle tendon end inserts.. There are many exercises I am VERY strong at and others I think I suck at. Example... I am 250lbs about 13%bf and I can only flat bench 275/285 for 1 or 2 rep max, but I can incline DB press 120lbs for 6 or so reps.. I squat 405 for 7 reps all the way to the floor. And DL 495 for a few reps.. SO why can't I bench over 300??
> 90% of those short guys are able to bench so much more than me, I assume because of the short throw leverage in their arms.. Right?? maybe???



gappa...ever had a chest injury or anything that has impaired your training?
just based on your stats, id probably raise an eyebrow of curiousity if i was spotting you as well......genetics too though might have something to play....im a small guy....5'11'' 185 @ 19%...(so im small WITH a gut) nothing impressive at all...with a 1rep of 315.......buttttttttt, my legs are retarded weak, and buckle and shake with LESS than my own bodyweight...and i played soccer my whole life....i think genetics are waaaaaaay underrated and dont get NEARLY enough attention and respect...

like when i see the guy with the insane horseshoe triceps the LAST thing i want to ask him is...'DUDE, whats ur favorite exercise for tris"....lol....now im much more cynical and merely grumble under my breath about how i got shafted with crappy genetics....lol

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## thabeastmaster

as far as the original question....

all i got to say is look at primates...

just recently i had the privilege of observing chimpanzees up VERY close....at only 120lbs they rival the strength of the biggest of strongmen....its all about the type of muscle tissue and the percentages found in our bodies....so to all those people with the retarded strength, low bodyfat, horrible diets, and no time in the gym.....  :1hifu:  GO TO HELL...AND I HOPE YOU SEE UR MONKEY CUZINS THERE WHEN U ARRIVE!!!!

hehehehehe

no im not bitter....not at all...

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## quarry206

i think people are reading way way way too much into stuff...

9 out of 10 people are not making gains because they are not training right...

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## GoGetter213

Im sure what beastmaster said is correct about the original question.... ITS ALLLLLLLLLLLLL GENETIC.... some big dudes cant lift shit but are genetically incline to have a heavy build, and some small ass dudes dont even have to try and are blessed with the mechanics to lift a truck....... its like everything else in this world, some people are born with the ability to run faster than others or jump higher or what ever it is....... this is why we have athletes and Mr. Olympias..... they are the few select people that have the genetic ability to preform such tasks.

oh and im with beastmaster on the fact that ALL U GENETIC SUPER FREAKS CAN GO TO HELLLL hahaaha

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## trulbfan3

hey i can bench a house and cant curn more than a coke...its a question i can never fig out!

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## garythompson

> as far as the original question....
> 
> all i got to say is look at primates...
> 
> just recently i had the privilege of observing chimpanzees up VERY close....at only 120lbs they rival the strength of the biggest of strongmen....its all about the type of muscle tissue and the percentages found in our bodies....so to all those people with the retarded strength, low bodyfat, horrible diets, and no time in the gym.....  GO TO HELL...AND I HOPE YOU SEE UR MONKEY CUZINS THERE WHEN U ARRIVE!!!!
> 
> hehehehehe
> 
> no im not bitter....not at all...



So you think no matter what lifts or routines people do, their going to get pretty much the same results?

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## Mr.Rose

strength is proportional to muscle size, or the cross-sectional area of a muscle for each individual, based on his/her muscle fiber composition.

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## garythompson

> strength is proportional to muscle size, or the cross-sectional area of a muscle for each individual, based on his/her muscle fiber composition.


what do you mean by cross sectional area?

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## garythompson

Is there possibly a way to increase the amount of muscle fibers or exchange one type for the other, instead of having what we were given biologically?

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## graeme87

> Is there possibly a way to increase the amount of muscle fibers or exchange one type for the other, instead of having what we were given biologically?


No, we can only thicken our muscle fibbers nt grow new ones, although some people say growth hormone can cause new muscle fibbers to grow. I haven't seen any evidence of this though and HGH is defo not my top pick for gaining strength.

If you want to be strong look into powerlifting, if you want to be big look into bodybuilding.

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## garythompson

Yeah but what do bodybuilders lift like? High reps with 3 minute rests between sets till failure, right?

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