# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Random thoughts on TRT and this board.

## flatscat

1. High BF in males more often than not leads to higher E2 levels. One should do all he can to reduce BF, change diet, and start Cardio and strength training to develop more lean mass and redo BW to determine the need for trt at that point if at all possible. The addition of an AI alone may be sufficient enough to get over the hump. The addition of HCG may also help get one "over the hump" without adding extra t whether by gel or inj's. If you can't get this done and are low, then by all means you can go about the transformation of your low t body with the use of added t. The high BF will be your worst enemy though until you get it under control. If you have high BF, E2 and your doc knows nothing or wont prescribe and AI to start with start looking elsewhere immediately for a more knowledgeable physician.

2. Most of us are deficient in Vit D. Get plenty of sun, or supplement if so. 

3. Frequent BW (every ten or so weeks) is essential your first 6 months on a trt protocol. Semi annual is okay after you have learned what works for your body and what doesn't. One of the really cool benefits of trt is you will get to know your body better than anytime in the past. You should pay attention to what it is saying at all times.

4. Pay attention to this board - it is your BEST resource for information. I can almost promise you whatever concern you have has been talked about here. If not, there are a ton of good guys (and gals) that will try to point you in the right direction.

5. Make friends with folks that may not necessarily hang out in the trt board much. You will need advise at some point on diet, exercise, maybe peptides, and general life questions as you go through this journey.

6. Always be respectful and try to help others on this board as much as you can - pass it down as you have your own experiences.

7. Never let anyone tell you or feel that what you are doing is wrong in any way.

8. Resist the temptation to draw the plunger back a little more or rub some extra on - first, more is not always better. You will be on a roller coaster for a while until your body levels things off. Any change in dosage will make that process harder and you will probably feel worse. Establish your baseline BW results and constantly compare how you are doing with each subsequent lab work. Second, you will run out of your script early and may be without your t until you can get a refill. And lastly, your numbers might be higher than what the doctor wants which may lead to him lowering your dose because he didn't know you were taking more than he prescribed. 

9. TRT is not a perfect science. Most people go through periods of problems no matter how long they have been on. Don't give up - see #4!

10. Remember that everything you take will effect everything you take. T should raise total and free t and E2, an AI should raise free and lower E2, HCG should raise total, free and E2 and so on and so on.

11. Read #10 again!

12. Use TRT to transform not only your body back where it should be normally, but your life as well. It helped me refocus on my wife, kids, job, friends, family and my body. It has the power to do all of these things if you do it right, take care of yourself, and are patient. Do not get in a rush to be beach ready (if you are overweight) in a month. It took a while for most of us to get to the point of needing trt, or realizing that we needed to make a change. It will take a while to get back to where you should be.

13. Always take before pic's. It not only gives you something to compare your transformation to, they can serve as a motivation to NEVER go back to the way you were. If you do, for whatever reason, crank it back down and get with the program again - you will have already done it so you will know what you have to do. And take pic's again. Recent advise was given that you should never trust a mirror - how true that is. I looked in a mirror for over twenty years and told myself as I sucked in my gut that it wasn't so bad. Even with my wife asking me to lose weight, being immobile and lethargic, it didn't look so bad in the mirror or on the scale. 

14. If you choose not to do #12, and think that adding t will work miracles just by injecting or rubbing it on and that's it - you will probably be very disappointed in the results. You will probably gain BF, feel the same or worse, and your treatment will most likely fail in the end. 

That's it for now. There is a million other things. Feel free to post your thoughts and advise.

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## D7M

Nice post!

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## Dont wanna be old

Good post !

Never new about vitamin D until last blood work I was recommended 2000 UI / day .
From my understanding it plays a big part in out immune system . I thought I got enough sun and vitamin D milk .

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## flatscat

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsl...2007-mar.shtml

Check this article out on Vit D - some other bs in there, but a good one overall.

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## subnet

awesome post flats  :Cheers:

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## forrest_and_trees

Nice post, although the Vitamin D thing is new to me. Do you have any references to info about it's as relation to LowT and HRT?

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## flatscat

> Nice post, although the Vitamin D thing is new to me. Do you have any references to info about it's as relation to LowT and HRT?


No, just think most men these days are deficient regardless of lowT and Hrt. But it should be included in BW labs and your supplements if you are low.

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## Vettester

Excellent post!! Thanks for putting it together.

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## SlimmerMe

Great post---and INSPIRING to stay the course!

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## olderfella

Well written nice post :Wink/Grin:

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## flatscat

Thanks Slimmer.

Welcome to the board older.

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## flatscat

> Excellent post!! Thanks for putting it together.


Thanks Vette,

Know you can add a ton of your own here.

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## flatscat

This thread belongs to all of us, not just me my good fellas. Chime in with your own random thoughts, ideas and experiences.

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## Epic Ed

Nice post, Flat. 

I'd also add:

- Take charge of your medical plan. Get informed, educate yourself about HRT, and step into the pilot's seat of your treatment program. Too many docs are novices acting like experts when it comes to HRT protocols and it is your responsibility to self advocate for treatment you believe is necessary and worthwhile, and against ineffective protocols that are based on old research or pure conjecture. The docs are your advisors, but you are in charge.

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## flatscat

> Nice post, Flat. 
> 
> I'd also add:
> 
> - Take charge of your medical plan. Get informed, educate yourself about HRT, and step into the pilot's seat of your treatment program. Too many docs are novices acting like experts when it comes to HRT protocols and it is your responsibility to self advocate for treatment you believe is necessary and worthwhile, and against ineffective protocols that are based on old research or pure conjecture. The docs are your advisors, but you are in charge.


nice

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## forrest_and_trees

Nice post Epic.... But would you please change that avatar for Pete's sake? That thing disturbs me.

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## Vettester

The variable that really sits at the top for me is running blood work and understanding how your body is responding to HRT. Flats comment about running labs frequently when you first start out is spot-on! Awhile back, I got a PM from a member who wanted to start his TRT right out of the gate with some rather high doses. I obviously advised against it until his program gets dialed in and balanced, which is only attainable by running lab work. He told me that he can't do blood work, so that's not an option. 

IMO, not running lab work in your initial phase is like driving with a blindfold. As many of you reading this know, having your hormones depleted or out of balance can pretty much turn your life upside down. HRT/TRT gives you the opportunity, or 2nd chance if you will, to get your life back again. However, like the driving analogy, it must be given the utmost respect or it can just as easily backfire and make conditions worse than what you experienced prior to jumping on HRT. If you can't or won't do labs then you should probably give some reconsideration with your plan to start HRT to begin with. It's a lifetime commitment so it's crucial to start off on the right foot! You'll be glad you did!

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## Epic Ed

> Nice post Epic.... But would you please change that avatar for Pete's sake? That thing disturbs me.


Yer not gonna like my next one...  :Welcome:

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## zaggahamma

> Yer not gonna like my next one...


u bicth

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## flatscat

forgot zinc, I take 100mg's a day, and make sure I get at least 2mg's of copper. helps with t to e2 conversion and for me, helps with my load size  :Smilie:

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## Epic Ed

> forgot zinc, I take 100mg's a day... helps with my load size


Oh, really? Hmmm. I may have to buy some. There are few things more gratifying than hosing down a woman and making her fearful that she's going to drown.

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## flatscat

bumper

read newbs

add to it elders

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## flatscat

Read newbs

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## The Toad

Awesome thread!

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## flatscat

Been meaning to add this for a while - and not many of us have or had this problem, but it comes across every now and then. Some of you young guys with low t symptoms need to look into this.

Really low Cholesterol can lead to low testosterone since it is the ultimate precursor in hormone synthesis. 

This has not been mentioned much.

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## VegasRenegade

Great stuff

The before pics are an eye opener. I see improvment week to week if I compare pics. The challenge got me doing thisl

Vitimans and Minerials 

For sure I post everthing I eat on fit day and was surprised that I was eating clean but was very low on som V and M So starting taking a low dose Multiple.
Vit D was one of those and Potasium as well it is still low most days. Zinc and Copper and B12 are well and goodl.


I missed this thread spending lots more time in the gym these days than on the board

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## steroid.com 1

This is a Sticky if I ever read one! Rational, reasonable and to the point. Excellent read.

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## flatscat

I think sometimes we get lost in our quest for the sweet spot and think that we can make hrt and exact science. When you look at how our bodies produce t, there is nothing exact about it. Time of day (and I think time of year), nutrition, rest, strength training, muscle mass, body fat and on and on. 

I have become more diligent in varying my t injection days from 6 to 10. never going out of that span though. Same with Hcg and adex. Not promoting this at all for the noobs though. You have to be on for a long while before you know how the stuff you put in reacts and how your body deals with it. I think it takes the hypo male a good 5-6 months at least to get used to the new levels you obtain. With the half life of test c or e, I personally, really do not see the need to inject more than once every 6-10 days. I have seen no one on this board that has said it actually helped with e2 or acne or any other side by injecting twice a week with those hormones. Just my two cents.

I think another definition of sweet spot can be it is when we know our bodies well enough to choose the correct protocol for all the things we are putting in it. And to vary that protocol is working for me. I don't feel best on day three or four after injection when my levels are their highest, I feel best on the first few and the last few - but still pretty damn good in the couple of days in the middle. 

But to each his own, and by all means after you really know your body, change things up a little - you might just find that sweet spot.

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## zaggahamma

> I think sometimes we get lost in our quest for the sweet spot and think that we can make hrt and exact science. When you look at how our bodies produce t, there is nothing exact about it. Time of day (and I think time of year), nutrition, rest, strength training, muscle mass, body fat and on and on. 
> 
> I have become more diligent in varying my t injection days from 6 to 10. never going out of that span though. Same with Hcg and adex. Not promoting this at all for the noobs though. You have to be on for a long while before you know how the stuff you put in reacts and how your body deals with it. I think it takes the hypo male a good 5-6 months at least to get used to the new levels you obtain. With the half life of test c or e, I personally, really do not see the need to inject more than once every 6-10 days. I have seen no one on this board that has said it actually helped with e2 or acne or any other side by injecting twice a week with those hormones. Just my two cents.
> 
> I think another definition of sweet spot can be it is when we know our bodies well enough to choose the correct protocol for all the things we are putting in it. And to vary that protocol is working for me. I don't feel best on day three or four after injection when my levels are their highest, I feel best on the first few and the last few - but still pretty damn good in the couple of days in the middle. 
> 
> But to each his own, and by all means after you really know your body, change things up a little - you might just find that sweet spot.


another EXCELLENT post on your thread...i too feel the exact way...and i also run my protocol this way as well...i think i made a few posts to the such from time to time...how often would you run bloodwork if it were easy enough and cost not an issue or do u think seein those numbers is less important that how we are feeling?

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## flatscat

Thanks JP, that means a lot.

I would run every three months. Kinda like looking at the scale to me - I pretty much know if I have gained or lost a few pounds, but since I have it I look at it every day and get pissed off about every fourth or fifth day. If I ran my labs every week or month I think the same thing would happen because the numbers would NEVER be perfect enough for me. So it is better to just go off of how you feel and how you perform than the numbers on a paper even though they serve a purpose.

Flats

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## n00bs

In regards to #2 , remember vit d Is a vitamin a antagonist and when supplementing vitamin d3 vitamin a supplementation must also occur. One must supplement retinol and Also beta carotine. Remember some people may need up to 20,000 iu d3 daily to reach good blood levels and everyone is different. However 2,000 iu is usually too little too late and 10,000iu seems to get most people decent levels. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10573558

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## flatscat

Thanks n00bs

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## subnet

nice update flats and I agree totally that this is not an exact science (yet?). I've been on injections every 3.5 days for quite some time, and did so to flatten my E2 levels and help my acne. Of course, it really didn't do that (I've been trying other things lately with much more effectiveness) and may go back to the weekly injects. I think you're 'bang on' with getting to know your body and how it's reacting to the medicine we're injecting into it! When first starting, everything's so new and I think most of us think 'more is better' so we really don't get to a good equilibrium for a long time. Now that I've been on TRT 16+ months, I'm getting to learn how my body feels when the dose is too high, when my E2 is too high or low etc. Of course, it might be the fact that I'm in a new job, in a new city and state and I don't have time to dwell on making everything regarding TRT totally perfect and worrying about every level. I know I've said in the past that I've always tried to get things 'perfect' with regards to levels and dosages. I'm not so sure it's possible, rather more important to learn your body and don't overanalyze!

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## flatscat

That's awesome Sub.

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## 38jumper38

very inspiring, Just have my blood work done this morning, lets see the results in 3 days. Thanks .

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## flatscat

Looking forward to seeing your thread on it. Pretty exciting huh?

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## arizona32

Great post.. would add that it is important to remember that we are all individuals and everyone responds differently. We have to be careful about giving/receiving advice based solely on our own experience. i.e. one person gets side effect A while another only get side effect B. Same is true for symptoms, dosages etc. It's good to share what works for you, but we all have to filter the advice based on the fact that like flatscat said it takes time to learn what works for each individual.

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## zaggahamma

> Great post.. would add that it is important to remember that we are all individuals and everyone responds differently. We have to be careful about giving/receiving advice based solely on our own experience. i.e. one person gets side effect A while another only get side effect B. Same is true for symptoms, dosages etc. It's good to share what works for you, but we all have to filter the advice based on the fact that like flatscat said it takes time to learn what works for each individual.


 agree..i try to stress this...its a great forum and a lot of the members care a great deal about each other and our ongoing therapies, etc.

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## JAMIE07652

FLATS , really nice post . The biggest mistake Ive made was not taking a before pic . 2 years ago my body was a mess ...took to the gym , work out hard , eat best i can ...funny thing is , im only 9lbs lighter but had to buy new clothes...twice . reading these boards has been a real eyes opener for me . You guys really are very nice and helpful. adding hrt to my life style i hope will be my cherry on top ! ....thx bro

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## flatscat

Take a pic NOW, so two years from NOW when you are really ripped and racing to the beach, you won't say "man I wish I had taken a pic two years ago".

Thanks for your words - lot's of really good guys here, and most are striving for the same thing - that's what makes this forum so special, and informative.

Flats

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## flatscat

bump for additions

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## bass

Bravo Flats! excellent post! this thread is a classic example why #4 point on your list is so important to pay attention to! I've leaned so much more from this forum than my family doc and the clinic!

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## black6

Great post. I have learned so much on this board and read it almost everyday and have burned up the "search feature". I fly down to the clinic i have selected on the 30th. Cant wait. Going down with so much more knowledge then I ever thought.

Edit: Sticky this thread. Great info on the basics of HRT.

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## flatscat

bump for newbs and additions

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## bass

here is a good one in case you get way too horny while on TRT and your wife can't keep up with you!




> Give it some time - let her see how it has changed not only your body, but your confidence and the way you treat her. Back off the cave man hit her in the head and drag her to the bed talk all the time and let her get to know the new you again.
> Flats

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## NOSUPERMODEL

Great thread. I am very new to this and am trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible.

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## flatscat

Time for Resurrection - read newbs and add vets.

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## flatscat

Aight, I gotta get somthin off my chest.

While I have no doubt all the guys and gals on this board have nothing but great intentions, and are here to help everyone, there is a disturbing trend that has been rearing it's head for a while now. Let me explain.....

The trend is lending itself to portraying trt as a massively complicated process. People stressing out about a couple of pg/ml on there E2, and having to nail down levels to an impossible exact number. Folks saying that you need to inject yourself with something 5-10 times a week to maintain constant levels, and on and on is quite intimidating to some. 

We have to realize that like everything else in life, one can make hrt as simple or as complicated as they wish. One thing is for sure - no one has any business drilling down to the tiniest minutia of this treatment until they have established the main goal - which is to raise a low t level, and maintain in range numbers for the other levels that the added t effects, and to feel like themselves again. This is accomplished fairly easily as we all know.

The addition of an AI and HCG are good things and needed things, but geeze there is something to be said about keeping a protocol simple at first.

And let's not forget there are guys who have no insurance, and not much money who can only afford maybe to run t and an Ai, and no way to pay the three thousand dollars that a complete b/w would cost without insurance. These folks need the treatment, and can do just fine with t and an ai if needed.

All we are doing sometimes is making folks question there protocol, and even how they feel - although they thought they were feeling fine before they read some of this stuff. 

I am not saying we can't debate twice a week or three times a week injections of t, or daily doses of adex, or eod injections of hcg, or additional creams and on and on. But what I am saying is due to the lack of numerous and frequent studies that really prove some of what is being said here, we should all give advise and comments that are prefaced by "this has been my experience", or "my physician said", or I read in this book......

The real value of this board come from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses.

Flats

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## zaggahamma

well said

i have actually done well on test and ai alone for 5 plus years...

i think vetteman used to preach the 15-30 or 20-35(e2 optimal ranges) maybe even 20-40 e2 zone....but made a well know name for the good ration but meaning more how you felt...."the sweet spot"....

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## Bigfoot66

There's another site that basically scares the hell out of you anytime you post bc of lab work being off, lack of BW and then prescribes a list of over 50 tests.

I agree that TRT is not a rocket science but easily could be made one. My first year on injections were hard bc I didn't know HOW I was supposed to feel. The effects are not immediate, and when you calm down and take it a day at a time you find the sweet spot.

In short, opinions above mine are dead on!

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## PitMaster

damn good read guys....thank you...bump

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## terraj

soild thread....rare

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## flatscat

Thanks Terraj

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## PPC

> I am not saying we can't debate twice a week or three times a week injections of t, or daily doses of adex, or eod injections of hcg , or additional creams and on and on. But what I am saying is due to the lack of numerous and frequent studies that really prove some of what is being said here, we should all give advise and comments that are prefaced by "this has been my experience", or "my physician said", or I read in this book......
> 
> The real value of this board come from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses.
> 
> Flats


This is so true. Glad you got it off your chest and sprinkled us all with some real grains of truth.

On some boards it seems anyone who dares to offer any other experience or opinion that deviates from the three legged and sometimes precarious protocol of T, HCG and AI - is made to feel like a fool. We (as yet) just do not have the studies proving to be true what some people tout as TRT doctrine. Truths will come to the surface as people share their own experiences and time goes on. All respond differently.

Case in point...my husband did EOD injections of T, HCG and he used an AI for a full year. He actually feels a lot better simply by using androgel . This may be rare but it is his reality. HCG does not float his boat. AI's just keep him running in circles.

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## flatscat

Thanks for sharing P

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## zaggahamma

> This is so true. Glad you got it off your chest and sprinkled us all with some real grains of truth.
> 
> On some boards it seems anyone who dares to offer any other experience or opinion that deviates from the three legged and sometimes precarious protocol of T, HCG and AI - is made to feel like a fool. We (as yet) just do not have the studies proving to be true what some people tout as TRT doctrine. Truths will come to the surface as people share their own experiences and time goes on.* All respond differently.*
> 
> Case in point...my husband did EOD injections of T, HCG and he used an AI for a full year. He actually feels a lot better simply by using androgel. This may be rare but it is his reality. HCG does not float his boat. AI's just keep him running in circles.


3 magic words

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## flatscat

maybe this little post needs to be visited by the newbs AND the olds....

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## steroid.com 1

> *maybe this little post needs to be visited by the newbs AND the olds*....


It does and here's why:

*"The real value of this board comes from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses".*

Thanks bro!

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## ConArmas

Thanks for your great insight Flastcat. I have been a bit intimidated by the thought of all this and you have given me a measure of comfort, to move ahead and keep getting educated...

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## ecdysone

Very nicely worded summary!

Could think of two things to add: 

(a) for the younger guys to consider alternatives to the lifetime of TRT, such as HCG , clomid, or even AI-monotherapy first. Yes, I know they are probably for a lifetime too, but "re-starts" are possible, and they offer some advantages; 

(b) don't forget that the endocrine system in the body also include the adrenals (cortisol) and thyroid and sometimes an imbalance in either of them can mimic or strongly influence what you are feeling on the testosterone side (HPTA imbalances).

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## yannick35

Been put on Vit D 10000 IU one pill a week along with my treatments, i am starting to believe that my medical doctor is a god among men LOL, been taking it for 2 months now. I also take cod liver oil.

Thanks faltscat amazing post.

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## APIs

> But what I am saying is due to the lack of numerous and frequent studies that really prove some of what is being said here, we should all give advise and comments that are prefaced by "this has been my experience", or "my physician said", or I read in this book......
> 
> The real value of this board come from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses.


Funny, this very thing was discussed with my Doc during our Quarterly Teleconference last week. At 100 mgs Test Cyp e4d my levels are coming back at 1491 & 47.5 free. All other blood work is coming back perfect even the Lipids with an HDL of 62. After telling him that I feel great, he didnt want to touch a thing. He explained that some in the field would back down a patient with a level approaching 1500. But he feels there's really no scientific basis for this & goes more on how the patient feels, backed up by actual BW figures. He explained that "they" (the Doctors) just really don't know, as the science is still growing. Some of his patients @ 100 mgs e4d come back with Lipid & HDL levels that are in the toilet. Everyone is different he said...

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## flatscat

thanks for everyone's input - all great comments!

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## JohnnyVegas

> The trend is lending itself to portraying trt as a massively complicated process. People stressing out about a couple of pg/ml on there E2, and having to nail down levels to an impossible exact number. Folks saying that you need to inject yourself with something 5-10 times a week to maintain constant levels, and on and on is quite intimidating to some. 
> 
> We have to realize that like everything else in life, one can make hrt as simple or as complicated as they wish. One thing is for sure - no one has any business drilling down to the tiniest minutia of this treatment until they have established the main goal - which is to raise a low t level, and maintain in range numbers for the other levels that the added t effects, and to feel like themselves again. This is accomplished fairly easily as we all know.
> 
> The addition of an AI and HCG are good things and needed things, but geeze there is something to be said about keeping a protocol simple at first.


Amen brother. I think it is because many think EVERYTHING going on in their body is a result of their Test levels. We can become so obsessed with this treatment that every pain, sniffle, erection, pimple and headache seems to be caused by our Test levels...and it just isn't true. Many of us are in our 40s, and we need more care than just an injection a week. Sometimes we have depression, or joint pain that is not related to our levels. TRT should be the beginning of a much healthier way of living, not the end of our search for health.

The other problem is the patience required. I constantly see people wanting to self-prescribe an AI because of a little elbow pain or because they are tired. Then, two days later they are freaking out because they got a headache and now maybe their E2 is bottoming out and they lower the dose. They are in a constant panic that their numbers are all wrong and say they just can't seem to get things dialed in.

I am not trying to take away anything from the guys that have a hard time getting things right. I am simply agreeing that sometimes we are our own worst enemy by overcomplicating the process, or by demanding instant and complete health from a hormone shot.

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## bigboy67

> Amen brother. I think it is because many think EVERYTHING going on in their body is a result of their Test levels. We can become so obsessed with this treatment that every pain, sniffle, erection, pimple and headache seems to be caused by our Test levels...and it just isn't true. Many of us are in our 40s, and we need more care than just an injection a week. Sometimes we have depression, or joint pain that is not related to our levels. TRT should be the beginning of a much healthier way of living, not the end of our search for health.
> 
> The other problem is the patience required. I constantly see people wanting to self-prescribe an AI because of a little elbow pain or because they are tired. Then, two days later they are freaking out because they got a headache and now maybe their E2 is bottoming out and they lower the dose. They are in a constant panic that their numbers are all wrong and say they just can't seem to get things dialed in.
> 
> I am not trying to take away anything from the guys that have a hard time getting things right. I am simply agreeing that sometimes *we are our own worst enemy by overcomplicating the process, or by demanding instant and complete health from a hormone shot*.


x1000! Everybody wants to get it right, and they think that if they make a change now they will know if it was the right decision in a few days, when in reality, you should wait like 2-4 weeks to really see. It is the hardest thing to do, wait until your body levels out

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## bass

> Amen brother. I think it is because many think EVERYTHING going on in their body is a result of their Test levels. We can become so obsessed with this treatment that every pain, sniffle, erection, pimple and headache seems to be caused by our Test levels...and it just isn't true. Many of us are in our 40s, and we need more care than just an injection a week. Sometimes we have depression, or joint pain that is not related to our levels. TRT should be the beginning of a much healthier way of living, not the end of our search for health.
> 
> The other problem is the patience required. I constantly see people wanting to self-prescribe an AI because of a little elbow pain or because they are tired. Then, two days later they are freaking out because they got a headache and now maybe their E2 is bottoming out and they lower the dose. They are in a constant panic that their numbers are all wrong and say they just can't seem to get things dialed in.
> 
> I am not trying to take away anything from the guys that have a hard time getting things right. I am simply agreeing that sometimes we are our own worst enemy by overcomplicating the process, or by demanding instant and complete health from a hormone shot.


Guilty!!!!! LOL! i did that at the beginning because i really didn't know what to expect or how things worked. it is a legit reaction for all newbies i don't hold it against them. but your point is well taken and i am glad you posted it here so the newbies can have a better understanding of how this treatment works and what to expect! its not wrong to post anything that seems abnormal especially if you are doing something else besides the maintenance TRT, we don't want to discourage newbies from posting their symptoms even if its on a daily basis, the more details the better we can help them!

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## JohnnyVegas

> Guilty!!!!! LOL! i did that at the beginning because i really didn't know what to expect or how things worked. it is a legit reaction for all newbies i don't hold it against them. but your point is well taken and i am glad you posted it here so the newbies can have a better understanding of how this treatment works and what to expect! its not wrong to post anything that seems abnormal especially if you are doing something else besides the maintenance TRT, we don't want to discourage newbies from posting their symptoms even if its on a daily basis, the more details the better we can help them!


I think everyone does it. I am impatient, and I am a massive over-thinker. You and I have discussed that I just plane got lucky with my treatment. I haven't changed it since starting last De***ber. Well, I self-diagnosed needing an AI, got sore joints, stopped using it and then had blood work done only to find out I don't need an AI. So I did exactly the thing I used as an example.

You are right that everyone should definitely post anything that seems abnormal! Hell, post everything that is normal too. We are all helped by everyone sharing. 

Sticking a needle in my body was a bit traumatic, but was then followed by a "hurry up and wait" mentality that I struggled with. Three and a half days until I do anything else? Every day I wondered what was happening to my body. I think any normal person would freak out a little bit.

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## flatscat

It is our collective experience and knowledge that can give newbs and some olds the confidence to push through that anxiety and reach their goal. 

We all have opinions about this process. And there are many studies that both affirm and contradict what we and physicians are saying. Truth is, the studies are a starting point, some words to think about. They may or may not be legit. Our stories help guide and ultimately help transform men from what they used to be to what they should/want to be.... Let us all never forget that when we are doling out strongly worded advise.

I am really so proud to be a member of this community. We are doing great things here. 

Thanks to all who participate and who are seeking better health.

Flats

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## bass

> It is our collective experience and knowledge that can give newbs and some olds the confidence to push through that anxiety and reach their goal. 
> 
> We all have opinions about this process. And there are many studies that both affirm and contradict what we and physicians are saying. Truth is, *the studies are a starting point*, some words to think about. They may or may not be legit. Our stories help guide and ultimately help transform men from what they used to be to what they should/want to be.... Let us all never forget that when we are doling out strongly worded advise.
> 
> I am really so proud to be a member of this community. We are doing great things here. 
> 
> Thanks to all who participate and who are seeking better health.
> 
> Flats


more magic words. i wonder how many doctors come here to learn from our experiences?! after all we are still Guinea pigs when it comes to TRT.

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## ecdysone

> after all we are still Guinea pigs when it comes to TRT.


Funny thing, after all of these years, they now finally realize that low test causes earlier-death in men from a variety of organ failures. These studies involved thousands of patients in dozens of studies. BUT what they don't know, even today, is what level repla***ent test should be targeted to, or what the effect of long-term TRT really is.

Just a guess, but it will take another 10-20 years until any of us will know if we are doing the right thing!

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## flatscat

> Funny thing, after all of these years, they now finally realize that low test causes earlier-death in men from a variety of organ failures. These studies involved thousands of patients in dozens of studies. BUT what they don't know, even today, is what level repla***ent test should be targeted to, or what the effect of long-term TRT really is.
> 
> Just a guess, but it will take another 10-20 years until any of us will know if we are doing the right thing!


Maybe that is what big pharma is worried about - sell a crap load of expensive meds VS inexpensive hrt therapy meds/hormones - - - i think trt can do more to extend life than three quarters of the meds out there.

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## JD250

^^^^ bingo!!! It's a multi billion dollar industry.......they can't have millions of people in good health.......the share holders wont make money.

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## Drmagic

Great post flats, I sat through a 3 hour lecture on vitamin D and was astounded when they showed stats that 75% yes that is correct, 75% of the US population is truely deficient in vitamin D. I had never drawn a vitamin D before at that point (2 years ago). I started checking everyone of my patients and that number is almost right on the money. Diet and sunlight won't do it for most people when you are this low. I start people on 5000 IU daily and it can take 6 - 12 months to get up to the desired range of 60 - 80 (nl range 30 - 100). Low vitamin D levels put you at an increased risk of colon cancer among others so it is not a supplement you want to be deficient in. There was some pretty compelling research that suggested increased risk for skin cancer as well, I think that corelation will be proved eventually. Great thing is, it is a dirt cheap supplement and an easy fix. You can take to much though so monitor levels if you are taking high doses. 2000 IU daily is very safe but may not get you to the optimal level.

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## BigBadWolf

I'm afraid doc when you reach 50 post your inbox is going to exploded!!! Lol

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## PetrX

My dr put me on vitamin d -50,000 iu a week pill for 8 weeks plus a daily 1000 iu in addition before giving me my script for test...the dr and I were shocked because I drink a gallon of milk a day plus lots of calcium and I'm always out on the sun since I live on the beach..its been 9 weeks now and it made a huge difference, feel way better overall, didn't know the importance of vitamin d

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## BigBadWolf

> Great post flats, I sat through a 3 hour lecture on vitamin D and was astounded when they showed stats that 75% yes that is correct, 75% of the US population is truely deficient in vitamin D. I had never drawn a vitamin D before at that point (2 years ago). I started checking everyone of my patients and that number is almost right on the money. Diet and sunlight won't do it for most people when you are this low. I start people on 5000 IU daily and it can take 6 - 12 months to get up to the desired range of 60 - 80 (nl range 30 - 100). Low vitamin D levels put you at an increased risk of colon cancer among others so it is not a supplement you want to be deficient in. There was some pretty compelling research that suggested increased risk for skin cancer as well, I think that corelation will be proved eventually. Great thing is, it is a dirt cheap supplement and an easy fix. You can take to much though so monitor levels if you are taking high doses. 2000 IU daily is very safe but may not get you to the optimal level.


Is this shots or pill form? Someone anyone?

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## BigBadWolf

> Is this shots or pill form? Someone anyone?


Bump^^

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## PetrX

Pill

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## Drmagic

> Is this shots or pill form? Someone anyone?


I use oral route mostly, have used injectables in the past but if your gut is working oral should be fine, just know it may take up to a year to get to the optimal level, you don't need to be in a hurry. always take D3 with food that has some fat in it as it is a fat soluble vitamin so it increases absorption when taken with meals. There are articles out there on once weekly dosing etc but I find it easier for my patients to just add it in to their daily regimen. I sell a 5000 iu capsule for $11 for 100 capsules so it is a dirt cheap supplement that you can get at any good health food store.

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## BigBadWolf

Thanx man good info

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## flatscat

Recently took about a 21 day break for my TRT. I did this on my own for several reasons. Mostly it was to remind myself what it is like to have low t and how shitty it really is. Well I accomplished that and for that reason alone I am glad I did it.

Now that I have said that..... Don't do it - ever - if you can help it. I didn't feel really crappy for long - about a week - and started feeling better pretty quick - about a week after i re-started - but I will say that I am having to dial things in again - after being fine tuned for a long time. So, I hope to be back on track in the next month or two.

Trust me, you will feel like shiat when you come off.... If you need to be reminded - just PM me and I will fill you in.

Flats

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## APIs

Thanks for posting this. I've wondered what it would be like to take such a break. Don't know if I would have experimented with it or not, but I think I'll pass now upon reading this...lol.

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## bass

thanks for putting that idea to rest Flats!

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## flatscat

jus the kinda sumbitch i am bass brother

i'd take a bullet for you guys

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## flatscat

Just a reminder to you guys to take your Vit D - and give blood as often as you can - without fail - whether you need to or not because of high levels - it has many benefits and you will probably feel better afterwards!

Hope everyone had a great Christmas and has an awesome New Year's!!!

Flats

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## moparmuscle

Why the vitD?

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## FONZY007

> 1. High BF in males more often than not leads to higher E2 levels. One should do all he can to reduce BF, change diet, and start Cardio and strength training to develop more lean mass and redo BW to determine the need for trt at that point if at all possible. The addition of an AI alone may be sufficient enough to get over the hump. The addition of HCG may also help get one "over the hump" without adding extra t whether by gel or inj's. If you can't get this done and are low, then by all means you can go about the transformation of your low t body with the use of added t. The high BF will be your worst enemy though until you get it under control. If you have high BF, E2 and your doc knows nothing or wont prescribe and AI to start with start looking elsewhere immediately for a more knowledgeable physician.
> 
> 2. Most of us are deficient in Vit D. Get plenty of sun, or supplement if so.
> 
> 3. Frequent BW (every ten or so weeks) is essential your first 6 months on a trt protocol. Semi annual is okay after you have learned what works for your body and what doesn't. One of the really cool benefits of trt is you will get to know your body better than anytime in the past. You should pay attention to what it is saying at all times.
> 
> 4. Pay attention to this board - it is your BEST resource for information. I can almost promise you whatever concern you have has been talked about here. If not, there are a ton of good guys (and gals) that will try to point you in the right direction.
> 
> 5. Make friends with folks that may not necessarily hang out in the trt board much. You will need advise at some point on diet, exercise, maybe peptides, and general life questions as you go through this journey.
> ...


Well said I jumped on trt and had high bf and got bad sides from mostly acne

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## moparmuscle

Um I guess my weekly tanning helps then lol.

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## FONZY007

> Um I guess my weekly tanning helps then lol.


I tanned just for that reason, had no issue with acne than lol, did it twice a week

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## moparmuscle

If I tanned twice a week id look so dark. As it is once a week I am very very brown (genetic).

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## FONZY007

> If I tanned twice a week id look so dark. As it is once a week I am very very brown (genetic).


Lol I'm Hispanic also

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## flatscat

Bump for newbs and more thoughts.

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## flatscat

Bought time.

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## flatscat

Okay men, it has been a long while since I had anything of importance to say around here (not that I ever did lol)- kinda took a hiatus. How has everyone been? 

I told my wanna be anti aging doc to take a hike, and found a clinic that would prescribe everything I needed (but they are total idiots - and the bw is embarrassingly lacking) and have been steady on my usual dosages (with the exception of adex - last e2 was eight I think). Oh yeah, they put me on metformin because my A1C was a little elevated - what do you guys think about that? 

Really fell off the wagon as far as diet and any kind of training - I am prolly 15-20lbs above where I was. Gotta get back into the swing of things again. I guess I need to take some of my own advise in the first post.

Guess what I want everyone to know is this group we have here is not just a wealth of knowledge on trt, but also a support group and motivators to help keep each other on track. I personally wish we could have our own before/after pics as a sub to this section - Vette????


Glad to be back in your company, brothers.

Flats

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## keep fightin

great to hear your gettin back in the saddle Flats! this a great place to hang your hat, let us know how you decide to jump back in..

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## zaggahamma

no more random calves sightings

metaformin ...dont know much about it..you and my grandmother in law take it...shouldnt it help with sugar and possible aid in weightloss?

i know its hard to focus on yourself when your taking care of everybody else so just have to say best of luck to you

your friend

jp

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## zaggahamma

just noticed all the fn games are on late ...either 8:30 or 9....guess theres more money in late night ads..guess they figure staying up til 11-12 isnt nothing

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## Vettester

> I personally wish we could have our own before/after pics as a sub to this section - Vette????
> 
> Glad to be back in your company, brothers.
> 
> Flats


Glad you're back Flats. Trust me, I fully understand the variables of life and how it can pertain to having the extra time for doing some of the things we need, and want. I'm sure you will grab it by the horns again just fine ...

On the sub forum, I'm actually working some thoughts with Admin, where we could possibly fuse a VIP type sub forum here for the knowledgeable and senior members, which might be our haven for medical price discussions. Maybe we can get a photo sub in the mix with it too.

PS: I'll gladly send you the info to my clinic if you want. They're easy to work with, and I just do my labs on my own and send it to them. Full range of therapies included ... Also, no personal experience with elevated A1C, but I'm presuming some of that will get back on the normal track when you start up your diet and exercise regiment again. My oldest brother has diabetes, so I've always been conscientious about that stuff. In your case, it's like you said, you fell off the wagon for a bit and got a few pounds to deal with. Again, no doubt, you will have that under control throughout the summer.

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## flatscat

Flats is back. So is this thread for the newbs.

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## VTX1800

Great freaking post man!!!!

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