# MEMBERS EXPERIENCES > MEMBER'S CYCLE RESULTS >  First ever Test E only cycle

## Jangles1

(edited for Muscle Rapid Proof. Dated 13th Dec)


What’s up guys 

Decided after a 3 month cut it’s time to start my bulk and first ever, extremely researched AAS cycle. 

I’ve been lifting for 4 years and changed my body a lot. Filled out a lot but added a lot of fat too which i spent a while getting rid off on a slow, high protein diet cut. 

I have cut down from 205 at the start of the year (a lot of fat and water was probably added due to getting an injury that put me out for 6 months).

Since training began 4 years ago I have struggled to put on as much natural muscle as I wanted do to injures that have set me back. I am doing AAS to build a solid keepsake base to build on naturally once the cycle has finished. With this in mind, keeping my lean tissue gains is crucial. I take this serious and have a good diet, training regime and the right attitude. I count calories daily and have expanded my knowledge on training substantially over the time I have trained. 


Stats

- - - -

Age - 30
Height - 6ft
Weight - 170lbs 
Body Fat - 14%

- - - - 


I have been thorough in my AAS research and gained enough knowledge to feel comfortable enough starting a cycle. I can’t get my body fat lower without going really light, and for my heigh, it’s unsafe. 


- - - - 

Test Cycle 

I will be using Austinites begginer bulk with a few small changes. 

2 x 250mg Pharmacom Test E a week.


The other changes

- I was “thinking” about doing was hCG the last 4 weeks instead of the entire cycle. But tbh I may just start it next week and follow the process. I have read good and bad about both methods so it’s hard to choose. Any constructive advice here is welcome ???

- I plan on doing a 6 week PCT to ensure my gains are kept and health is in check. 

- I am adding in Sarms GW at 20mg a day to help with endurance and not affect cardio. 

I have the liver protector sorted, Armidex ready to take 0.25 EOD starting from tomorrow and of course all my PCT (Clom and Nova)


- - - - 

Log 


I will update this every 2 - 3 days and promise I will finish this. A lot of people just seem to stop. As long as people are engaging though I will keep at it. 

The 2 reasons for me doing a log are 

- I want to help others like me who don’t want to jump in at 500ml a week. 90 % of the loggers do this and or add a second AAS. 

- It would be reassuring to get feedback and advice along my cycle. 


- - - - 

Bloods (taken last week)


Test - 482
LH - 9.1
FSH - 8.94 
Estrogen - 16


- - - - 

Training and diet 


On point and approved by my (natural) bodybuilding competetor personal trainer friend. Not a bro split in sight. Can post if requested. 

I am to start of 300 cal about maintenance and build to 500 max to avoid fat being added. 

- - - -


I think that’s about it. Below I will start with day 1

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## Jangles1

Day 1

- - - -


Fuck me I was nervous as doing the first shot. Even though I am fully researched and know what to do and how to do everything I planned on day 1, I was shitting it. 

I re watched my “Test Thigh Injection Video maybe 3 time before I cracked on. 

After throughly alcohol swabing what seemed like my whole leg, I eventually did it. It went well but I noticed I was tensing up when I injecting. I couldn’t seem to hold my skin tightly the way the video showed (to avoid as much PIP as possible). So that went out of the window. Sticking the needle in was pretty mad. Again, I won’t lie, I was nervous. I don’t like needles haha 

It went in and I slowly Injected. I read 30 seconds per ML, but it took me at least 60. I didn’t pull the needle back as you should to check blood due to nerves, I was disappointed in my self for that. I did watch the video back after though and nor did the doctor doing it. 

I pulled out the needle and that’s the first shot of pain I got. It was fairly painful for 20 seconds. No bleeding really. 

I massaged the area and then went for a 20 min slow cycle and have been to the gym. I read cardio and legs dsy on your injection day can massively help with PIP. So far it’s good. It feels bruised and like a slight dead leg, but no pain. 

- - - -

Gym 

As mentioned above, I did legs today. It’s clearly in my mind but I felt stronger than ever and uppeded every single weight easily. Clearly a placebo effect but I felt I could have doubled everything easily. Admittedly I have been going really light coming back from my injury. 

That’s all there is to say today really. 

I have taken my GW (20mg) and will take my liver protector when I get home. 


Thanks guys and if I’ve missed anything or you have any questions or feedback, let me know.

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## hollowedzeus

Best of luck mate

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## Sh0tsf1red

I'd drop the SARMs if this is your first AAS cycle

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## songdog

1st off at 6' you should be around 200lbs at 170 this tells me you have no base.You need to worry more about your diet and proper training not aas at this point.

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## Jangles1

> 1st off at 6' you should be around 200lbs at 170 this tells me you have no base.You need to worry more about your diet and proper training not aas at this point.


Thanks for your input. I did expect 'fair' comments like this. 

As I said, I have cut down to 170 / 14% bf to start a clean AAS bulk. 

My diet and training knowledge is fine. All my joints and strength is at a good level as I have been up to 205lbs and slowly cut down just fat. 

I have started now and I am taking it extremely steady with diet 100 %, the gym / form 100% and not taking too much Test E. 

We will see what happens I guess.

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## Jangles1

> I'd drop the SARMs if this is your first AAS cycle



Point taken and willing to drop if you can tell me an educated reason why I should?

Any advice is always important to me and I have no issues with listening and applying the feedback you guys give me in this thread  :Smilie:

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## songdog

Because 1st cycle you grow like a weed if you do things right and less is better for your body.And you are only going to grow so much on this cycle be it 1 compound or 6.Plus if you have a bad reaction wat compound caused it.And as far as training and diet they are not on or you wouldn't weight 170 I weighed that at 5'7 with a very small frame muscle weighs more than fat.

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## Jangles1

> Because 1st cycle you grow like a weed if you do things right and less is better for your body.And you are only going to grow so much on this cycle be it 1 compound or 6.Plus if you have a bad reaction wat compound caused it.And as far as training and diet they are not on or you wouldn't weight 170 I weighed that at 5'7 with a very small frame muscle weighs more than fat.


Thanks mate. 

In that case I am dropping the SARMS . 

*
'.And as far as training and diet they are not on or you wouldn't weight 170 I weighed that at 5'7 with a very small frame muscle weighs more than fat.'*

No disrespect but my training and diet is absolutely spot on. I think you're coming from more of a body composition view and what you should weigh before I AAS cycle, which if so, I get what you're saying. 

I have cut down to 170 doing 1lbs a week successfully while keeping my (admittedly small) muscle gains from my bulk last year..... Training and diet is not an issue. 

I could have done another 6 month clean bulk before doing my AAS and put on 24lbs (half of that if not more being fat), but I felt with me cutting down cleanly from 205, It would be ok. 

I am however not here to argue and do take on board your criticism. 

Stick around and see how the cycle goes mate. 

I am not fussed about getting the most out of this cycle in terms of 'if I did it at 200 I would get better results' as I plan on only doing this one cycle then building around it naturally or at the most with Sarms.

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## Jangles1

Day 2

- - - -

*Info 
*

I won't be doing this daily, dont worry. Just an update on the PIP. 

My leg started to feel really sore last night and has been sore today. 

To anyone doing it for the first time I advise you try and pinch the skin and maybe warm the vial. I didn't do this but will be doing it moving forward  :Smilie: 


- - - -

*Gym* 

As expected nothing crazy but the psychological effects are profound. I upped everything and felt super strong. In the mind I know, but interesting!

I will report back next week after my next pin.

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## charger69

You think that your diet is right on but I agree with sound dog. I am 5’11 and competed at my first show all natural at 165 and about 7-8%bf. You should be about 190 and cut. You state 14%. 
You need to eat and counting calories alone will not get you there (been there done that). Your macros are what you need to focus on. It took me about 2 years to dial it in and be able to bulk and stay at 12% bf. 
The people in the diet forum may very well teach you new things. I still learn things from them and I compete. I will never believe that I cannot learn new things. 
I also understand why you are going so low, but I would recommend going up to 500. Shutting yourself down for such a small qty isn’t worth it. 
You will grow like a weed with 500 but if your diet isn’t right on, you will lose everything. 
HCG during full cycle. You want to keep the boys working throughout the cycle and it will also help in recovery.

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## Jangles1

Thanks for your input man. Massively appreciated. 

I’ve been counting calories daily for 2 years using My Fitness pal. 

My macros atm are 


2500 cals (My fitness pals saying that’s my maintenance) for a week. I want to check that this is my true maintenance. Once that’s sorted I will up to 300 and progress to around 500 surplus. 

40% protein mainly from chicken and beef. Maybe 30g every other day from a shake, but 95% food. 

40% clean / complex carbs such as seeet potato’s or brown rice, green veg an oats / natural yogurt etc. 

20% good fats like Almonds and olive / coconut oil. 


Now I started AAS i have tightend up my counting from 80 % to 100 % weighting absolutely every single thing. 

Again, not here to argue but I feel my diet is fine. I am not arguing I could have slowly added 0.5lbe a eeek and got to 185, but I didn’t so no point in me barking on haha. 

I’m upping to 300 next week then I’m gonna see how I am at that dose for 3 weeks then maybe go to 400/500 week 5 onwards. I don’t want to get too big and want to be safe.

Def keen to learn and thats why I'm here  :Smilie:

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## Jangles1

Day 4

——

Yesterday was my second pin. Due to fairly bad but not ridiculously bad PIP in my thigh I went for my left Delt. All went well (it seemed). 

I was calmer than the first time and I felt more controlled. I was still awkward however and I would say form on the injection was 5.5/10. 

I couldn’t grip the needle and must have moved it around some. 

Right after my arm was sore for an hour and then went away. Coincidentally I had a massage booked in (I have 2 a month to keep loose) and got my massage therapist to do a nice Delt massage. I figured this would totally suppress any PIP. 

——


I went to the gym and did Shoulders and Obliques after my massage and I could feel my left arm starting to hurt a bit. I manned the fuck up and powered through though and had a solid workout. It’s truly amazing how the placebo effect of taking Test can improve your workouts and motivation. 

No noticeable strength gains although something at football Wednesday night was so weird. I work my ass off and normally I’m blowing out of my arse after 10 mins. This game it felt like i was the fittest on the pitch. I was looking around and everyone was blowing in between play and I was there absolutely fine. I’m not sure how strong a placebo effect can be, but this was extremely strange to me. Can test E improve fitness ? Even if it can, surely not Afyer your first shot. Very interesting scenario. 

—

Severe PIP

It’s sage to say last night was awful. I woke up at around 3am in absolute agony. My left arm was in unbearable pain. I’m not being a pussy but it was fucking horrible. I spent the next 4 hours trying to drift off while in excruciating pain. I’ve managed to get it feeling a little better now I’m up and about. I’ve applied Deep Heat and taken some Asprin. 

I cannot move my arm above my head and struggle to use it at all tbh. 

I’m not sure what the fuck has happened. Virgin muscle, bad form, both ?

Either way I’m super worried about moving to the right Delt. I may stick to Quads for now. I fucked up my first pin much more and the pain was not t even close to what I’m experiencing atm. 

I’m going to get a heat pack today for my Delt and try to use it a much as I can to get blood flowing. Not pleasant at all though. I think il skip the gym today (Back and Biceps) and just do my planned Spinning session. 


Anyway. Not sure if anyone is reading ‘this, but as promised I will finish it. 


(PS - how can I move this to the LOG section)

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## Jangles1

Day 8

----


Did my third Jab yesterday. This time left quad. I felt it was my best one yet. I was calm, didn't move the needle about, iced my leg, warmed the oil, took a full min to inject the 1cc, massaged it after and used heat pack. 

FUCK me. Less than 12 hours and I'm limping. Today I've not. been able to walk at all haha. Fuck knows why its gone so bad.... Hopefully its just the virgin muscles. 

Using Pharmacom Test 250 per ML (checked on their site) and I guess the severe pain means its working!


Gym and diet bang on... Feel good but I know its just a placebo atm. Upping my lifts every single day!

Put on 5lbs in a week on my MAINTAINCE cals lol. Clearly water... I need to get up to 3000 cals to be 500 above my maintenance, so I am upping it 100 a week for the next 4 weeks. 


Anyway. Hope people are still reading this. If not, I guess I'm chatting to myself haha

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## Mr. Small

> Day 8
> 
> Anyway. Hope people are still reading this. If not, I guess I'm chatting to myself haha


I'm reading

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## hollowedzeus

You can move it by pm'ing admin and asking for a move.

Also repeatedly painful pip 'might' mean dirty gear

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## songdog

> You can move it by pm'ing admin and asking for a move.
> 
> Also repeatedly painful pip 'might' mean dirty gear


Not really high BA content.

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## hollowedzeus

> Not really high BA content.


^^^^

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## Dannyboy51577

Im following too. Thanks for keeping us up on the experience

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## Jangles1

Codes check out on the Pharmacom website. So guessing it’s legit. What’s BA content ?


Literally dead man walking. Can’t put any weight on it. Ibopofen doesn’t help. Read some people’s left quads is always worse. Gonna try left outer glute tomorrow. 


Felt amazing in the gym today. Upping all my weights easily. Just gonna be the mind placebo atm, but I feel stronger than ever. Diet is spot on.

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## Jangles1

I pmd lasy week and got no reply btw

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## The Deadlifting Dog

> What’s BA content ?


benzyl alcohol, it's a solvent

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## Jangles1

*Day 11
*
---


*Pin* 


My left leg is finally getting a bit better. Think it will be fully walkable tomorrow.

Today I injected in a new site. It was the ventrogluteal on my right side. It took me about 30 mins to figure out exactly where to go. It did NOT go smoothly lol. 

I had read that you should take weight off your legs when doing gluten injections. Well I stuck the needle in and could not keep my balance. The needle was moving around and I panicked and pulled it out about 5 seconds into the injection. No blood but an instant little bruise came up. 

I felt panicked, but I calmed myself the fuck down and I threw the needle, alcohol swabbed the end of the syringe as I put it down on the table (that had been swabbed too, but best to be safe. In hindsight I should have transferred the test) and attached a new needle. 

I came to the realisation that you can’t really inject yourself while trying to take your weight of one leg. I cant anyway. I HATE doing the injections but look forward to the process as its so exciting knowing my body will make some amazing changes in the next 2 - 3 weeks when it starts to kick due to my diet and training being solid!

Anyway, the second try round injection went much smoother. I feel disappointed I did not get it right the first time and panicked, but what can you do. My bad form is surely the cause of my severe pip from Monday, but ironically that WAS my best injection. Maybe I injected to low or with it being a virgin muscle. 

I am expecting this leg to pretty much drop off if pining form is anything to go by lol. I feel so calm and ready, but as soon as the needle goes in, its like my mind is like 'we not playin now son' and I start to panic a bit. 

Here is a pic of the 2 sites I was meant to inject into (marked them withthe needles plastic cover), as you can see i missed both haha. Then you see the failed pin and the succesful one, which I still think has massive room for improement. 




I have been avoiding aspirating due to me not wanting to move the needle. I would MUCH prefer to asiprate, but i have honestly watched every injection video on youtube from Doctors and more than 50% do not aspirate with Test. I just want to avoid the severe pip I am getting. 


*Gym*


I went to the gym after my pin and did Chest and Tris. Felt strong as. Nothing much to report. I feel I look better in the mirror, but again, most likely plecebo. I also cycled their and back which gets the cardio out of the way. I hate cardio and try to get it done by playing football or riding my bike. 


*Diet* 


On point although I had a curry last nigth with a nan bread as my cheat meal. I had boiled rice and avoided the popadoms. Drank water and lowered carbs thrgouhgout the day to make room. Its hard to estimate a curry, but it was within my macros and I got 170g of protein before the chicken curry.... 

Today 

Breakfast - 30g Cassien Protein / 300ml Semi mill
Lunch - Potatos, Carrots, Green Beans, Peas, Chicken Breast with a little fresh mint sauce with barely any calories and no fat. 

I hate the idea of eating totally plain food (I see some guys on insta eat dry rice, dry chicken and dry veg COLD. Fuck that. 

I make sure I eat super clean but I will make sure I enjoy my food. For instance last night I had a Chicken Chassur which had 50ml of Red win (less than 100 cals) and 0.5TBSP of flour. For me eating food is one of the most enjoyable parts of life and you do not have to eat boring plain food to make it super healthy. Unless you're going for comps I just do not see the need. I guess its just worth poining that out to anyone who thinks you need to live of cold rice and veg lol. 

Tonight - Beef Stew with Boiled rice. I will leave the butter out but add a little flour to thicken the sauce. As long as its in my macros Its fine  :Smilie: 


Supplements - I am on top of these and as soon as I do my protocol for the day, i re fill my little box for tomorrow. It BAFFLES me when I see people doing logs and they say they forot to take their AI for a week or something. the mind boggles!

For anyone intersted, this is my daily protocol with Arimidex taken over other day


*Arimidex* - 0.25mg eod
*Cod Liver Oil* - 4 a day
*Multi Vit* - 1 a day 
*Vit C* - 1 a day
*NAC* Liver protector - 600mg a day
*Magnesium* - 1 a day 
*Zinc* - 1 serving a day


I guess thats it. I will report in with the PIP in a few days and a gym report if anything happens. 



Anyone have any questions, feedback or advice, feel free to reply!

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## Jangles1

*Day 12 PIP UPDATE!
*


Well great news. 

Ironically, my by far worse pin is has caused some MILD PIP but that is it. No dead leg, no severe pain. 

Funny how my left quad and left delt were rendered useless but my right side is fine. 

Unsure where to go next. Im probarly going to avoid the left quad again but I may try the delt wth a 25 gauge and then just repeat as follows 


Rigth Quad (high)
Left Delt (25g)
Right Ventrogluteal 
Left Ventrogluteal (if i can get to it)




- PS, I have asked for the thread to be moved (again), so check the log section if this thread suddely goes!

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## GearHeaded

> 1st off at 6' you should be around 200lbs at 170 this tells me you have no base.You need to worry more about your diet and proper training not aas at this point.


guys always say this about other guys that aren't very big, suggest they need to eat and gain weight and learn to grow before jumping on gear .. but the reality of the matter is that if you go to any tested natural body building show all those guys are generally 150 pounds on stage (and been training and dieting for a decade) . most natural guys simply can't get this 'base' you speak of and stay lean.

thats why they come to the dark side  :Smilie:  lets welcome them with open arms and rid the world of natties that look like they don't even lift

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## kelkel

> thats why they come to the dark side  lets welcome them with open arms and rid the world of natties that look like they don't even lift



Great line.

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## Jangles1

> guys always say this about other guys that aren't very big, suggest they need to eat and gain weight and learn to grow before jumping on gear .. but the reality of the matter is that if you go to any tested natural body building show all those guys are generally 150 pounds on stage (and been training and dieting for a decade) . most natural guys simply can't get this 'base' you speak of and stay lean.
> 
> thats why they come to the dark side  lets welcome them with open arms and rid the world of natties that look like they don't even lift



I see what they are saying. But in my case I have bulked to 205 and then cut back down cleanly. So I don't feel the AAS strength gains will hurt my tendons and joints. Now IF I had never gone above 170, I would not be doing this cycle. 

Anyway, I have been training 4-5 years in the gym and have my diet and routine down to a t, so I am excited to see how this

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## Jangles1

Cycle update tomorrow guys. ZERO pain in my last injection site. Cant even feel it. These Ventroglute spots are solid. 

I will try my left one tomorrow and update!

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## GearHeaded

> I see what they are saying. But in my case I have bulked to 205 and then cut back down cleanly. So I don't feel the AAS strength gains will hurt my tendons and joints. Now IF I had never gone above 170, I would not be doing this cycle. 
> 
> Anyway, I have been training 4-5 years in the gym and have my diet and routine down to a t, so I am excited to see how this


your 30 years old and been training for 5 years .. you absolutely have a legitimate choice to go on gear at this stage in your life Imo , no matter what you weighed or not

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## Jangles1

True mate true. People always like to give advice and everyone has opinions I guess. I guess its heavily circumstantial though..

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## Jerry2020

Keep up the posts, Im enjoying this thread as Ill be starting my first cycle in the next week or two. Have you been able to make out any discernible differences in strength/recovery and what timeframe was it before you think this kicked in (and wasnt just placebo effect)

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## Jangles1

*Day 13* 

*Pin*

Left Ventroglute did not go well. It hurt really bad and I shit it, pulled the needdle out and went for the first site I used, the thigh. It went super smooth and easily my best one yet. Little bit of a mild dead leg, but nothing too serious. Overall, a decent pin. Unsure what happened with the Ventroglute. My left side seems worse to do. It may be in my head mind....

*Gym* 

Still upping my weights at a steady level while really focusing on form and mind / muscle connection. I feel great, strong, but nothing crazy. One thing I have been SHOCKING for is pullups. I can do Chin ups, but pullups are always tough and I cant do more than 3. Ive noticed that not only can I do 3 x 3 now at the end of my workout (I always do them at the end), I am going much higher and form has greatly improved. Is this in the mind or is it the Test slowly creeping in? Unsure

*Diet* 

Had a bit of a naughty Saturday as I went to a gig and had a Macdonals on the way home. I stuck with chicken and only ate half the bread and half of the chips. I just needed some food badly but did not want to fuck up too much. Overall It has been solid. Usually it is 100% in the week and the weekend it goes to maybe 70/80%. Gym 6 days last week though and cardio twice. So I figure its ok. 


*Weight* 


Day 1 - 170.4lbs
Day 21 - 179.4lbs 


*Pics*


First time I am adding a pic. 

1 week before AAS, 1st week of AAS and the last pic is just now, 2 weeks into AAS. 

I had cut down from 205lbs in the first pic and most def lost a lof of my muscle from 3 or 4 bulks over the last 3 years due to a bad shoulder injury that had me out for 8 months. 

I mean, shit, this is the first time I am seeing them all side by side.* Whats everyone think?* (each one is bang after a work out and includes the post workout pump


*Concluison*


I feel I can see small changes, but it may be in the mind and knowing I am taking 500mg of Test E each week haha. Everything is going ok. I am slightly worried about the 9lbs gain in what is essentially 2 full weeks. I am assuming a lot is water. Hopefully it tapers off a bit as If im gaining 5lbs a week I would have put on 60lbs by the end of my 12 weeks haha. Maybe I need to drop my cals down? I am on 3000 ATM, 600 which is betwen 500 / 600 suprluss. 

I will give it another week and see how I go.

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## Jangles1

Please drop some comments and questions if you're watching this as its shitty talking to myself for the most part  :Smilie:

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## GearHeaded

Jangles, NO No no . you don't need to drop your calories (your only 170 pounds),, the initial spike in weight is just a bit of inter cellular water retention and muscle glycogen storage (both a good thing). after 8 weeks your weight will stabilize.

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## Jangles1

I wasn't planning too tbh haha. But yeah.... 

179lbs today remember ;0 haha

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## GearHeaded

> I wasn't planning too tbh haha. But yeah.... 
> 
> 179lbs today remember ;0 haha


give yourself a year and a half and shoot for 210 pounds .

Remember when you come off of cycle some of the weight your going to loose is going to be glycogen , Test makes you store more glycogen then is naturally possible. Forcing more and more glycogen in is going to help with overall tissue growth, also being carbs force in amino acids (building blocks of muscle) into the cell.

getting as big and full (even intercellular water retention) as you can while on cycle will illicit better growth gains that are more keepable ,, then if you were to 'lean' bulk and go low carb or stray away from water retention .

also why I'm not a huge advocate of running too high an AI dose if growth is your number one goal , driving down estrogen and water retention too low is not good to grow

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## Jangles1

Thanks mate. All solid advice. My short term plan is 

Finish my Cycle and do a 6 week PCT to try and ensure my gains are solid and stay while the water and whatever else goes away.... 

Then do a S4 and GW Sarms cutting bridge for 16 weeks to cut down slowly, aiming for 0.5lbs a week loss to prevent muscle going. And then an 8 weeks bulk and 8 week cut in the same cycle... Hopefully il have my ideal body then...

We will see. I may need to just do a full bulk for my second cycle and then a natural / sarms cut as I know I need to put on a good amount of lean muscle before I can cut down into some real muscle.

I like the idea of a half and half so I can bulk for 8 weeks then cut using AAS for 8 weeks to ensure I only loose pure fat, diet depending of course. 

Test, EQ and Anavar is what I would prob run with Tbol as a kicker. 

Anyway. All many moons away atm. Just enjoying my current cycle. Its nice to have an idea where I want to be and what I will do though. Not interested in Tren , Anadrol , Decca, Winny etc.. They are all a bit next level for me. Masterons sounds nice though for cutting. Maybe Cycle three lmao....

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## GearHeaded

> Thanks mate. All solid advice. My short term plan is 
> 
> Then do a S4 and GW Sarms cutting bridge for 16 weeks to cut down slowly, aiming for 0.5lbs a week loss to prevent muscle going.


Just a tip brother, I would never do any type of 'cut' what-so-ever without the use of an Anabolic (i.e., being on a cycle). and no Sarms are not enough imo . Being in a calorie deficit and loosing weight without the use of an Anabolic is going to be detrimental to your muscle mass... there is no way around it , being in a deficit will cause your body to break down muscle tissue to use as Amino's and then convert those into blood sugar (by the liver through gluconeogenisis).

Taking AAS on a cut in a calorie deficit will up-regulate protein synthesis and help partition nutrients in favor of muscle building/muscle sparing. So you won't loose muscle tissue while cutting (unless it was some extreme cut)..


IMO, the time that your off cycle is not the time to cut at all , its the time you run a slight calorie surplus and try to keep your body going and acclimate to the new mass gains you got while you were on cycle .. if you want to cut then do it on cycle, never off.

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## Jangles1

Thanks so much for your input man., Taken on board and I plan to do what you said. Keeping it basic with a Test and S4 + GW (as I have them) and a slight defect. This should let me cut into my muscle I've gained through a 16 week AAS cycle and 16 week natural slow bulk cycle. Hopefully have my desired body then and can just carry on natural form then on... (he says ha(

Im getting ahead of myself anyway. 

Back to this cycle  :Smilie: 

Feeling great today. Sleep seems to have improved lately and I feel less tired in the morning. Interesting!

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## Jangles1

*Day 18*

*Pin*

Left Ventroglute this time. Felt the calmest and most confident I have done with this, my 6th Pin. It all went well but instantly my upper outer glue felt numb... I knew id get some horrible PIP from this one. My left side just seems more sensitive to the needles. Weird. 

*Gym* 

All going well. I have no idea if its STILL placebo with me being 3 weeks in and 5 pins of test (now 6 and gym this evening), but I feel stronger. STILL upping all my weights. However I had started right at the bottom again when I got back to the gym 6 months ago after a bad shoulder / trapped neck nerve injury... So its not surprising I am working my way back up. I still have no surpassed wha I was lifting pre injury, but for me, form, patience and injury prevention is much more important than ego weights.... I still feel amazing pumps Wirth the lower weights and if anything, its much better all around!

*Diet* 

Solid. Upped my calls to 3300 for this week. I did play football yesterday which burned 500 cals according to fit bit. I always take 30% of that number to give myself a more accurate calculation of what I really burned. As I had 290g of protein and 45g of fat eating my 3200 calories, I treated myself to a small coke and a chocolate bar with the calories I had earnt from football. Its little things like this that get me sticking on my diet. As I said earlier, I do not believe that trying to eat clean 100% of the time is the way to go. IMO, or for me in the past, this approach has helped me stay on track and not fall of the waggon. 

My total macros yesterday include the treats I had earned through extra cardio were 

Protein - 292
Carbs - 447
Fat - 64

All of the carbs were complex other than the chocolate bar and coke... Now I don't do this with every cardio session, but I do like to do it on a cold Wednesday night after 1 hour of gruelling, HiiT cardio / Football. 


*Weight* 

Checking myself weekly so will update on Monday. But last Monday was 179.4 (9.4 added since start of bulk)

*Sides* 

Nothing I know off. I am super horny in the morning.. Unsure if this is me thinking I should be Horney and acting on it though haha. Placebo is a wonderful thing and never more so than now have I realised the true power of it...

Have been getting mouth ulcers more than usual. 3 in the last week. I find this weird as nothing has changed. I used to get them loads as a young lad... But not so anymore.. I googled it and found no info...

*Concluison*

Feeling good, looking good, but still waiting for real changes to happen. I know it can take 4 / 6 weeks on a Test only cycle....


In other news I got some SIS labs T Bol. I may use it for the last 6 weeks depending how the next 3 weeks go. I don't want to introduce it if I don't need too, but with it being my fired cycle and one where I will grow the most, I MAY add it to really fill out my frame.. We will see though. I won't if I don't need too.

----------


## ghettoboyd

> Jangles, NO No no . you don't need to drop your calories (your only 170 pounds),, the initial spike in weight is just a bit of inter cellular water retention and muscle glycogen storage (both a good thing). after 8 weeks your weight will stabilize.


I agree stop eating super clean.. a mcdonals burger or two will help you get the calories you need and since aas enhances nutrient partitioning you body will use every bit of food you eat clean or not...bottom line is EAT buddy...

----------


## ghettoboyd

I would also consider stopping any cardio at all...you are not helping yourself in your goal to gain weight and muscle with cardio as thin as you are imho...

----------


## Jangles1

> I would also consider stopping any cardio at all...you are not helping yourself in your goal to gain weight and muscle with cardio as thin as you are imho...



Thanks for your comments mate. 

I dont have any issues eating haha. So I dont feel the need to NOT eat clean. I want to avoid adding fat, so I will jsut eat 3300 for now a day and mainly keep them clean. 

If i need to up to 3500 or 3800 I can easily with a simple INSANT Oats shake every morning. Not an issue. 

I will see how my weight is on 3300 this Monday coming. I just want to build to 3500 a day (550 above maintaiance according to the stickies in this forum). 

Any more wil surely just promote fat gains?

Again, I have NO issue eating more. Its fine. Im just going off advive of not eating more than a 500 surpluss to avoid unesessary fat gains... I was on 3000 for the last 2 weeks and ive still gains 9lbs.

----------


## Jangles1

PS - 


PIP was a bit bad last night and today. Its given me quite the dead leg but I can still walk and lots of Deep Heat and a hot bath with Epson salt this morning seems to have calmed it right down!

----------


## Jangles1

*Day 21* 

*Pin*

Right V Glute. Used a 25g but didn't like it as it felt no difference pain wise but took much longer to inject and more chance of wiggling the needle about longer. Wont be using again!!! Other than that, it went smooth. 

*Gym* 

Really fucking good. Feeling stronger every day still. This is week 4 today so I am expecting better gains in and the kick in within the next week / 2 weeks..

*Diet* 

Solid. Was on 3300 cals last week but upped to 3500 this week.

*Weight* 


Starting - 170.4

Last week - 179.2

This week - 180.4

Looks like the water weight has levied out and I only put on 1lbs. As you saw above, I have no upped my cals. I will keep going, up to 4000 if I need too. 

*Sides*

First sign of sides are 1 red pimple on my chest and one on the right shoulder. Not something id usually get.... Other than that, nothing. 

*PIP*

Warmed the oil, iced the entry point, injected slowly, did LEGS workout after and had a bath when home. Got some slight pip, more than last week but nothing MAJOR!

*MISC*

I decided to add a beginner does of T-bol (50mg) so I have some class 2 anabolic properties to my current Test cycle. 

I did this to enhance my bodies ability to put on lean tissue and get some strength benefits. I only plan on doing 1 bulk and then 1 cut cycle so I want to get the most out of this cycle and reap the rewards of my work ethic in the gym and kitchen and all the money, time and hard work I have invested into this. 

Research and help / feedback has led me to understand that protein synthesis, nitrogen retention, and other anabolic functions will all be increased with the added compound in Tbol. 

I throughly researched Tbol and what I needed to protect my liver. I did another thread about that if you're curious about th

*Conclusion*


Feeling super good. My mind has never being so focused and all in all this cycle is going swimmingly. Cannot wait for the next couple of weeks!!

----------


## GearHeaded

Jangles, what are you running for an AI and at what dose ?

beginning to get a bit of acne may be a sign that your DHT levels are elevating (nothing to be too concerned with), you could supplement with Saw Palmetto which will help keep DHT in check by blocking 5-alpha-reductase (enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT).

keeping DHT in check will also help limit prostate and balding issues that could arise

----------


## Jangles1

Thanks mate.


Arimidx 0.25 every other day bud. 

Saw Palmetto ordered mate. 500mg 

What dosage do you recommend?

----------


## GearHeaded

1 to 2 caps per day

----------


## Jangles1

I usually go by the label but always like to check. 

What do you think about the weight gain only being 1lb?

I am GUESSING that my metabolism is working super well and with all my food intake being solid nutrition, I need to smash in more cals. I have read that your maintenance calories and what is normally right totality changes when on AAS. 

Anyway, Il keep adding a few 100 calories each week until I am seeing 2lbs a week minimum gain.

----------


## Mr. Small

Weight gain of 1lb a week is not bad result really.

----------


## Jangles1

Thanks for your input there mate.

Usually id aim for it 1lbs a week, but I would aim for that without AAS. Im going for 25/30lbs with this being my first AAS and starting at 170.

----------


## Mr. Small

> Thanks for your input there mate.
> 
> Usually id aim for it 1lbs a week, but I would aim for that without AAS. Im going for 25/30lbs with this being my first AAS and starting at 170.


Shoot for 14/15lbs dude, the rest would be bodyfat.

----------


## Jangles1

Well what I mean I have read an average person on their first Test E 500 cycle ''''usually''' you can expect to get 25/30 and keep 15 right. This is diff for everyone I know.....

Hoping to keep a good 10/15 from this cycle with Tbol, Test 500, 6 week PCT and solid diet and training. 

TBH im not really too worried about what I am aiminor by the end of it, I was just thinking that I should be getting at least 2lbs a week. 

Just focusing on diet and gym. I guess I will see how I fend on 3500 calories this week  :Smilie:

----------


## songdog

> *Day 21* 
> 
> *Pin*
> 
> Right V Glute. Used a 25g but didn't like it as it felt no difference pain wise but took much longer to inject and more chance of wiggling the needle about longer. Wont be using again!!! Other than that, it went smooth. 
> 
> *Gym* 
> 
> Really fucking good. Feeling stronger every day still. This is week 4 today so I am expecting better gains in and the kick in within the next week / 2 weeks..
> ...


Why add the Tbol when you don't even know how your body will react (gains with test)?

----------


## GearHeaded

> Thanks for your input there mate.
> 
> Usually id aim for it 1lbs a week, but I would aim for that without AAS. Im going for 25/30lbs with this being my first AAS and starting at 170.


the initial weight gain you get on your first cycle , the first 4-5 weeks or so, is going to be intercellular water retention (this is a good thing, its filling out your muscles) and increase glycogen stores in the muscle (which is a good thing as well as it will make your fuller, stronger, and increase workout capacity).

supra-physiological levels of Testosterone allow your body to hold a lot more water and glycogen in the muscle cells then is humanly possible natural. So weight gain comes rather rapid at first as the cells 'fill out' and fill up. an easy 15 pounds right there alone.
then you start being able to lift heavier and harder, this recruits more muscle fibers and breaks down more muscle fibers and thus ultimately repairs and grows those fibers . this is what will be happening the second half of your cycle, you begin to start putting on actual tissue.
the weight gain is a bit slower during this process. just make sure you keep filling up and replenish your glycogen stores though with a solid amount of carbs in your diet.

depending on your bodies ability to hold glycogen and water and put on new tissue, 25-30 pounds is quite possible on a first cycle.
holding onto the weight after the cycle is over is going to depend on how well your body is able to acclimate to the new weight and how fast your natural test levels recover . the gains that are lost when coming off a cycle are generally the glycogen and intercellular water weight , the actual new muscle and tissue growth will likely remain if your protein and calories are high enough in PCT (never attempt a cut or calorie deficit in PCT)

----------


## kelkel

> depending on your bodies ability to hold glycogen and water and put on new tissue, 25-30 pounds is quite possible on a first cycle. holding onto the weight after the cycle is over is going to depend on how well your body is able to acclimate to the new weight and how fast your natural test levels recover . the gains that are lost when coming off a cycle are generally the glycogen and intercellular water weight , the actual new muscle and tissue growth will likely remain if your protein and calories are high enough in PCT (never attempt a cut or calorie deficit in PCT)


That's the problem though. Guys tend to lose motivation and consistency during pct and after. Nutrition then suffers and subsequently the money spent on the previous cycle flies out the window. Then they feel they must have to do more on the second cycle as the first just wasn't good enough. Vicious "cycle."

----------


## Jangles1

Anyone who looses motivation in PCT is in no fit state to ever do AAS imo. Its without a doubt the most important part of the cycle and I know for me that I will approach it as methodically and through as my 1 - 12 weeks cycle....... 

This 6 weeks ( I am doing 6 to really ensure I keep my gains) time window is where you loose or keep your gains, how can you not be absolutely one point wit it.. Madness!

Once I start PCT I shall simply adjust my calories so I am gaining no more than 1lbs a week and carry on lean bulking until the start of my cut 3 months later.. That will be 6 months bulking (3 with AAS) and should put me in a good position to cut up  :Smilie: 

Maybe my dedication is different to some people, IDK.

----------


## Jangles1

I have noticed 3 more spots pop up on my face/head. 2 are little whiteheads at either side of the bottom of my nose (right in the corner) and one is more of a red boil on the side of my head, 

I get these NOW and again in life, but it seems like a little bit of a breakout with the one of my chest (gone now) and the one on my shoulder.

I have got a really good all in one facial scrub, wash etc and separate moisturiser to use when I wake and before bed, 

Could this be Test E related ?

----------


## The Deadlifting Dog

> I have noticed 3 more spots pop up on my face/head. 2 are little whiteheads at either side of the bottom of my nose (right in the corner) and one is more of a red boil on the side of my head, 
> 
> I get these NOW and again in life, but it seems like a little bit of a breakout with the one of my chest (gone now) and the one on my shoulder.
> 
> I have got a really good all in one facial scrub, wash etc and separate moisturiser to use when I wake and before bed, 
> 
> Could this be Test E related ?


Seriously???

You didn't know that steroids cause acne??
Hormones in flux cause acne for many.
Wait until PCT and after.
I break out the worst after my cycle is over.

----------


## Jangles1

No no I know AAS promotes acne in some people.

However, I thought Acne was a big breakout. Not little white heads in multiples spots around the face. They're just little separate spots. 

Also MOST cases are on Chest, Shoulders and Back...


(Pics attached show what I assume Acne is and what comes up when you google the word)






Anyway I guess the oily skin from the Test E is just causing the spots, or at least making them easier to appear.

----------


## Jangles1

> Seriously???
> 
> I break out the worst after my cycle is over.



Ahh right ok. That sucks man.... 

Anything on the face?

----------


## ilalin

from experience:

500mg/w not less for gains for 8 weeks, try to do 250mg 2x/w for stable blood levels
250iu HCG 2x/w starting the third week of the cycle until 2 weeks after last shot
if you aromatize easily, and you will with 14% bf, 12.5mg exemestane/d during whole cycle, stop two weeks after last shot
50 to 100mg mesterolone/d if available, not 100% necessary
20mg clomiphene or tamoxifen /d for 4-6 weeks starting 2 weeks after last injection
Isotretinoin during cycle to treat severe acne only, several showers a day with soap to treat increased sebaciouis gland activity, keep the skin clean and oil free as much as you can. Same goes for your face. Indoor tanning might combat acne since UV essentialy acts as a sterilizer.
oh, and also don't forget the most important, 1.5g protein/lb lbm/d

----------


## Jangles1

I do 2 x 250mg Monday and Thursday....



Todays macros have been protein heavy. Usually its 250 - 300 with more carbs...


325g - protein 
337 - carbs 
87 - fats (all healthy fat far as I know from milk, nuts, food)

----------


## songdog

Some people get acne no matter wat it's the nature of the beast.

----------


## Jangles1

> Some people get acne no matter wat it's the nature of the beast.


haha I look like a woman with all the shit ive got (Scrub, Clenser, Moisturiser)

----------


## hollowedzeus

> haha I look like a woman with all the shit ive got (Scrub, Clenser, Moisturiser)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korIOEPGPPs

maybe give you some ideas

----------


## Jangles1

hahahahaha unsure if sarcastic....

Just going to take care of my skin more from now on with this. Should have thought about that before really!!

----------


## songdog

> Whats up guys 
> 
> Decided after a 3 month cut its time to start my bulk and first ever, extremely researched AAS cycle. 
> 
> Ive been lifting for 4 years and changed my body a lot. Filled out a lot but added a lot of fat too which i spent a while getting rid off on a slow, high protein diet cut. 
> 
> I have cut down from 205 at the start of the year (a lot of fat and water was probably added due to getting an injury that put me out for 6 months).
> 
> Since training began 4 years ago I have struggled to put on as much natural muscle as I wanted do to injures that have set me back. I am doing AAS to build a solid keepsake base to build on naturally once the cycle has finished. With this in mind, keeping my lean tissue gains is crucial. I take this serious and have a good diet, training regime and the right attitude. I count calories daily and have expanded my knowledge on training substantially over the time I have trained. 
> ...


So here you list your age 30 but in another thread you told a kid who was 22 that you were 22 also wat gives bro!

----------


## Jangles1

Huh?

I am 30. 

10th March 1987....

Where did I say that? Think you got the wrong person bro. lol

Zero reason to lie.

----------


## Jangles1

*Day 27* 

*Pin*

Did my 8th pin yesterday. Coming up to the end of week 4. Left thigh. Was shitting it due to not being able to walk for 5 days last time. The pint went smooth but fuck me it hurt and felt horrible doing it. Experience helped me stay calm and not panic like I did a few weeks ago (when I pulled out). 

*Gym* 

Solid. Really feeling great. No HUGE strength gains and still not seeing anything in terms of body changes. 

*Diet* 

Had 2 cheat meals this week (Pizza and TGI Friday). Felt guilty haha, but made up for it with solid workouts and extra cardio. Its mad how food guilt can you feel haha. 

*Weight* 

Will be updated this coming Monday. 

*Sides*

Nothing from the Test. Spots have gone down and no other issues. 

Tbol pumps seem to have started. Such a strange feeling in the lower back on Deadlift and Bent Over Row. Tricky to explain but I am only 5 days in an on 50mg a day + 6g of Taurine a day and Magnesium tablets.

*PIP*

Was super bad yesterday. Felt like it was going to be a repeat of the first time I injected into the left quad. Thankfully did not get worse and I CAN WALK today haha. 

*Conclusion*

Its been 4 full weeks (nearly) and I know shit is going to get real. Its tough putting so much effort into something and not seeing big changes fast. Its all down to patience and it is hard to inject twice a week and not see shit for 4 weeks. But thats how it is so just have to suck it up and crack on. Really hope it kicks in next week  :Smilie:

----------


## songdog

> Huh?
> 
> I am 30. 
> 
> 10th March 1987....
> 
> Where did I say that? Think you got the wrong person bro. lol
> 
> Zero reason to lie.


11/15 Riskz11 Sust 250 1st cycle on pg 2

----------


## Jangles1

> 11/15 Riskz11 Sust 250 1st cycle on pg 2


'''

Jangles1 Jangles1 is online now
Junior Member

PS - I dont want to sound like I am on my high horse*, but I waited til age 30 to do AAS after 4 years* of traning and understsnding diet, counting cals, how to do a propper routune etc. I have had injuries along the way and not made the progrress I wanted, but the knowledge is there. When I decided to embark on AAS I researched it THROUHGLLY. Before I even thought about injecting myself with a compound I knew exactly what I needed, I had eveyrthing I needed, I understood PCT, how important bloodwork was, what suplliments I needed etc etc etct. Ive had questions along the way, but I am very knowledgble in the essentials. I went over 'My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle' 5 or 6 times in a month, learning it all and understanding it all.

''


Not a clue what you're on about man. 

Clearly state Im 30. You seem to have it out for me, so if you have nothing nice or at least constructive to say, please do not bother. Thank you!

----------


## songdog

> '''
> 
> Jangles1 Jangles1 is online now
> Junior Member
> 
> PS - I dont want to sound like I am on my high horse*, but I waited til age 30 to do AAS after 4 years* of traning and understsnding diet, counting cals, how to do a propper routune etc. I have had injuries along the way and not made the progrress I wanted, but the knowledge is there. When I decided to embark on AAS I researched it THROUHGLLY. Before I even thought about injecting myself with a compound I knew exactly what I needed, I had eveyrthing I needed, I understood PCT, how important bloodwork was, what suplliments I needed etc etc etct. Ive had questions along the way, but I am very knowledgble in the essentials. I went over 'My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle' 5 or 6 times in a month, learning it all and understanding it all.
> 
> ''
> 
> ...


Not out for you bro just read wat you wrote and wanted you to explain so there is no reason for you too be hostile just wanted a explaination you wrote it.

----------


## David LoPan

> No no I know AAS promotes acne in some people.
> 
> However, I thought Acne was a big breakout. Not little white heads in multiples spots around the face. They're just little separate spots. 
> 
> Also MOST cases are on Chest, Shoulders and Back...
> 
> 
> (Pics attached show what I assume Acne is and what comes up when you google the word)
> 
> ...


I never get pimples until I read this.

----------


## Jangles1

> Not out for you bro just read wat you wrote and wanted you to explain so there is no reason for you too be hostile just wanted a explaination you wrote it.


Im not hostile mate. Just seems all your posts with me are a tad negative while I'm doing this log to help others and get advice along the way from more knowleable guys like your help. I may not do everything the way 1 person tells me, but I always listen, analyse and apply the feedback given to me by my AAS piers (so to speak). Im here to learn  :Smilie: 


Anyway I am 30, unfortunately. When I was 22 I was living in Ibiza sniffing coke off tits every week...... lmao

----------


## Jangles1

> I never get pimples until I read this.



hahaha well thats unlucky

----------


## songdog

> Im not hostile mate. Just seems all your posts with me are a tad negative while I'm doing this log to help others and get advice along the way from more knowleable guys like your help. I may not do everything the way 1 person tells me, but I always listen, analyse and apply the feedback given to me by my AAS piers (so to speak). Im here to learn 
> 
> 
> Anyway I am 30, unfortunately. When I was 22 I was living in Ibiza sniffing coke off tits every week...... lmao


No they were not ment to be negative and still waiting on a reason why you told Riskz11 you were 22.I give safe advice and when I see someone going agaist wat we say I ask why now if that seems neg to you I am sorry but too many guys think they need way more gear than they reallyneed to gain size.They rely on the gear and not the food and the food is 95% of getting big.So wat this really comes down to is you don't like to explain yourself or can't makes no difference.I have no problem watching people mess up.

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> No they were not ment to be negative and still waiting on a reason why you told Riskz11 you were 22.I give save advice and when I see someone going agaist wat we say I ask why now if that seems neg to you I am sorry but too many guys think they need way more gear than they reallyneed to gain size.They rely on the gear and not the food and the food is 95% of getting big.So wat this really comes down to is you don't like to explain yourself or can't makes no difference.I have no problem watching people mess up.


 This is something i've
been thinking about recently; due to the advice given to anyone under the age of say 25,on here possibly being perceived as negative
regarding gear,how many join up,telling folk they're 30 or whatever,just to get a more positive reaction.
If i was 21,intended using gear regardless but wanted positive advice,then it would seem lying about my age,would be the way to go.
I wonder how many,if any members on here,are actually considerably younger than they purport to be....i wish to fuck i was! :Hmmmm:

----------


## charger69

> No they were not ment to be negative and still waiting on a reason why you told Riskz11 you were 22.I give safe advice and when I see someone going agaist wat we say I ask why now if that seems neg to you I am sorry but too many guys think they need way more gear than they reallyneed to gain size.They rely on the gear and not the food and the food is 95% of getting big.So wat this really comes down to is you don't like to explain yourself or can't makes no difference.I have no problem watching people mess up.


Sound dog has a point. If you wrote that you were 22 and you are not, an explanation is in order. I do not think SoundDog has been negative. He has voiced his views. 
I am not for or against anyone and I try not to judge people.

----------


## Jangles1

WTF man. Where did I write this ? I never wrote I was 22 ffs ?????

Read my quote above from the thread where I say i’m 30 !!

No idea where this 22 thing is coming from and Songdog has not showed me. He has told me the thread where i apparently said that and I’ve gone in that thread and clearly say I am 3 0 !!!


Look at the thread and look at the quote above.

----------


## David LoPan

> WTF man. Where did I write this ? I never wrote I was 22 ffs ?????
> 
> Read my quote above from the thread where I say i’m 30 !!
> 
> No idea where this 22 thing is coming from and Songdog has not showed me. He has told me the thread where i apparently said that and I’ve gone in that thread and clearly say I am 3 0 !!!
> 
> 
> Look at the thread and look at the quote above.


http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...ml#post7339755

I think he didnt see that you were quoting the OP.

----------


## Jangles1

> http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...ml#post7339755
> 
> I think he didnt see that you were quoting the OP.


 :What?: 


Ridiculous. 

Songdong, you're clearly a respected member and im sure a lovely guy, but please dont accuse people of things before reading properly. You didn't even bother re reading or checking your accusation of my lying about my age once I challenged you, nor did Charger before adding his part. I understand people dont want to give advice to underage guys, but at least check your shit before accusing man.

Personally before getting in on a thread I would go and see for myself. 

Attached my driving license for any more doubters. Sad I have to do so to continue getting advice, but I guess thats the best way. 



Anyway, now thats cleared up Il get back to my log thanks. 


In other news, my PIP is fucking killing. Starting to limp. Not good. Left side is an issue every fucking time. lol

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> Ridiculous. 
> 
> Songdong, you're clearly a respected member and im sure a lovely guy, but please dont accuse people of things before reading properly. You didn't even bother re reading or checking your accusation of my lying about my age once I challenged you, nor did Charger before adding his part. I understand people dont want to give advice to underage guys, but at least check your shit before accusing man.
> 
> Personally before getting in on a thread I would go and see for myself. 
> 
> Attached my driving license for any more doubters. Sad I have to do so to continue getting advice, but I guess thats the best way. 
> 
> 
> ...


Your thumb looks very young for a 30 year old.................ok,i'll get me coat.

----------


## Jangles1

LOL 


Love a bit of an ice breaker joke. It made me laugh out loud..

Maybe thats photoshopped  :1hifu: 

Jokes aside, I never said I was 22 and I am 30 as my ID shows. Lets get back to helping people with this thread and helping me too. 

One REALLY annoying thing is that a good 90% of logs are incomplete. Very strange to me. I will finish this 100 % and be detailed every week.

A full, detailed weekly log was something I really struggled to find when researching and I want to help others on this journey and make sure I am doing ok too!

All positive vibes welcomed. Not into forum arguments and like to get along with everyone  :Smilie:

----------


## David LoPan

> Ridiculous. 
> 
> Songdong, you're clearly a respected member and im sure a lovely guy, but please dont accuse people of things before reading properly. You didn't even bother re reading or checking your accusation of my lying about my age once I challenged you, nor did Charger before adding his part. I understand people dont want to give advice to underage guys, but at least check your shit before accusing man.
> 
> Personally before getting in on a thread I would go and see for myself. 
> 
> Attached my driving license for any more doubters. Sad I have to do so to continue getting advice, but I guess thats the best way. 
> 
> 
> ...


Just think about it from Songdog's POV. He deals with a lot of stuff and everyone misses things from time to time.

You did write: 'my age is 22
height is 5ft 10 
weight 80kg 
bf% is 13.8
lean body mass is 68kg.'

instead of using reply with quote.

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> LOL 
> 
> 
> Love a bit of an ice breaker joke. It made me laugh out loud..
> 
> Maybe thats photoshopped 
> 
> Jokes aside, I never said I was 22 and I am 30 as my ID shows. Lets get back to helping people with this thread and helping me too. 
> 
> ...


Good on you bud!

----------


## Jangles1

> Just think about it from Songdog's POV. He deals with a lot of stuff and everyone misses things from time to time.


I dont hold grudges and not mad or anything (not that anyone gives a flying fuck ha), but he could have gone and checked what I said in the thread once I said I was 30. Instead he wrote a big sentence about it all and followed that by asking why I still had not explained myself.... Not to sound like a dick, but I makes sense to just go and check what someone said yourself lol. I appreciate his knowledge and not looking to cause issues here!

Took me 30 seconds to check my post though ;0  :Welcome: 


This is all getting negative anyway so lets drop it and get on with the log....

----


Is there anyway my left side could be more open to worse pip than my right ??? Really curious why every injection on my left side has caused much more severe PIP. Ive done it with my right hand so its not form!

----------


## David LoPan

> I dont hold grudges and not mad or anything (not that anyone gives a flying fuk ha), but he could have gone and checked what I said once I said I did not say I was 22. Instead he wrote a big sentence about it all and followed with asking why I still had not explained myself.... No excuse


I bet your test levels are a little high. You do come off a little strong sometimes and is fine, we all do from time to time. But remember that there are a TON of young kids that post on this site and say one thing and then the next post they change it to get a better answer. Monitors look at your posting history and might not have time to read the post all of the post so that is where the mistake was made.

I think we have established that you are 30. Glad I was able to help sort this out.

----------


## Jangles1

Test levels high  :1laugh: 

Ive just had to prove I am 30 due to someone not reading something correctly. Hardly flying off the handle here mate. Im acting no different to how I ever would in this situation. I haven't been rude or aggressive in any way. What are test levels got to do with anything ? (on a side note I hope they're higher than normal when injecting 500mg of Test E week lol)


Coming off strong, I guess that just my personality.

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> Ridiculous. 
> 
> Songdong, you're clearly a respected member and im sure a lovely guy, but please dont accuse people of things before reading properly. You didn't even bother re reading or checking your accusation of my lying about my age once I challenged you, nor did Charger before adding his part. I understand people dont want to give advice to underage guys, but at least check your shit before accusing man.
> 
> Personally before getting in on a thread I would go and see for myself. 
> 
> Attached my driving license for any more doubters. Sad I have to do so to continue getting advice, but I guess thats the best way. 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't know if it makes a difference,but i'm six jabs into my cycle,and i haven't had the least bit pip so far.
I put my vials into a dish and pour boiling water on them.Obviously,i'm altering the viscosity to some degree,
but it goes into my quads in 10 seconds or less,then a quick massage of the area and thus far,everything's good.

----------


## songdog

> I dont hold grudges and not mad or anything (not that anyone gives a flying fuck ha), but he could have gone and checked what I said in the thread once I said I was 30. Instead he wrote a big sentence about it all and followed that by asking why I still had not explained myself.... Not to sound like a dick, but I makes sense to just go and check what someone said yourself lol. I appreciate his knowledge and not looking to cause issues here!
> 
> Took me 30 seconds to check my post though ;0 
> 
> 
> This is all getting negative anyway so lets drop it and get on with the log....
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


That's why I told you to check the thread but you got mad guys lie all the time here.So now you see wat I read and it's clear now was that so hard? Now if I had a dime for every kid who in his thread said he was 25 but his profile says 19 I would be a rich man and they all say the same thing bro.So it's nothing againest you just want to get the facts clear.

----------


## Nogbad the bad

Oh,and it's way way past my bedtime,here in blighty,so goodnight and godbless.

----------


## Jangles1

> Don't know if it makes a difference,but i'm six jabs into my cycle,and i haven't had the least bit pip so far.
> I put my vials into a dish and pour boiling water on them.Obviously,i'm altering the viscosity to some degree,
> but it goes into my quads in 10 seconds or less,then a quick massage of the area and thus far,everything's good.


Thats amazing for you mate. Its not a game changer, but the pip is annoying. 

I always put the vial in a cup of boiling water but dont like to submerge the vial. I assumed it wouldn't be a good idea to do that.... Maybe I am wrong here haha. 

What gauge are you using for 10 second injections lol ?

Takes me 60 seconds or more to push the test E in (250mg) with a 23 gauge.

----------


## songdog

> I dont hold grudges and not mad or anything (not that anyone gives a flying fuck ha), but he could have gone and checked what I said in the thread once I said I was 30. Instead he wrote a big sentence about it all and followed that by asking why I still had not explained myself.... Not to sound like a dick, but I makes sense to just go and check what someone said yourself lol. I appreciate his knowledge and not looking to cause issues here!
> 
> Took me 30 seconds to check my post though ;0 
> 
> 
> This is all getting negative anyway so lets drop it and get on with the log....
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


if you are having problems with pip cut with sterile oil.Your gear has a high BA content.

----------


## Jangles1

Thank you. Glad its sorted!

----------


## Jangles1

> if you are having problems with pip cut with sterile oil.Your gear has a high BA content.


It seems to be my left side only lol. 

I looked at that oil but can only fine 'Grapeseed Carrier Oil' when I google 'Sterile Oil"

----------


## Jangles1

> That's why I told you to check the thread but you got mad guys lie all the time here.So now you see wat I read and it's clear now was that so hard? Now if I had a dime for every kid who in his thread said he was 25 but his profile says 19 I would be a rich man and they all say the same thing bro.So it's nothing againest you just want to get the facts clear.



Thank you. Glad its sorted!

----------


## Obs

> Just think about it from Songdog's POV. He deals with a lot of stuff and everyone misses things from time to time.
> 
> You did write: 'my age is 22
> height is 5ft 10 
> weight 80kg 
> bf% is 13.8
> lean body mass is 68kg.'
> 
> instead of using reply with quote.


It has been frustrating lately especially. There has been a tidal wave of underage cyclers posting lately. Its easy to jump the gun. I find I have had to restrain myself from terrible rants lately so I made a new young guy thread. 

Jangles, glad to see you are 30. 1987 was a good year.
I spent the whole year suckin tit and getting everything I wanted as fast as those around me could suit my needs. 

The monitors here have a tough job. I keep answering questions guys have only to find out they are 20 and then I feel like an ass for not checking. I have given a junior varsity football team the perfect guide for cycling trenbolone , completely on accident.

----------


## Jangles1

I didn't know how serious the underage thing was (in terms of how you guys take it, not in terms of doing steroids underage) when it comes to advice and forum monitoring. 

I find that reassuring and like to be part of a community who cares. 

All good anyway. Everyone is here for the same reason, to be safe, and treat this with respect and treat others with respect.

----------


## David LoPan

> Thats amazing for you mate. Its not a game changer, but the pip is annoying. 
> 
> I always put the vial in a cup of boiling water but dont like to submerge the vial. I assumed it wouldn't be a good idea to do that.... Maybe I am wrong here haha. 
> 
> What gauge are you using for 10 second injections lol ?
> 
> Takes me 60 seconds or more to push the test E in (250mg) with a 23 gauge.


I know I am going to regret saying this but I have never had an issue with the injection site. Knock on wood. Make sure you rotate your injection sites. I personally only pin in the the gluteus maximus. IMHO when you do the leg muscle up have a greater chance of having pain in the injection site. That is why when you go to the doctor they give you a shot in the gluteus maximus or the deltoid injection site.

I personally do not aspirate my shots nor take very long pushing it in. But I have been doing this for *years*. I do have my wife give me my shots in my left glute because I can only give it on my right side correctly.

----------


## Jangles1

> I know I am going to regret saying this but I have never had an issue with the injection site. Knock on wood. Make sure you rotate your injection sites. I personally only pin in the the gluteus maximus. IMHO when you do the leg muscle up have a greater chance of having pain in the injection site. That is why when you go to the doctor they give you a shot in the gluteus maximus or the deltoid injection site.
> 
> I personally do not aspirate my shots nor take very long pushing it in. But I have been doing this for *years*. I do have my wife give me my shots in my left glute because I can only give it on my right side correctly.



Hope the wood touch helped bud haha. 

Ive used so far

right quad 
left quad
left delt 
right vento glute
left vento glute 


Every left one has left me limping or with severe pip. No issues with my right side other than soreness. Fascinating haha. I do use a Dif one each time too btw  :Smilie: 

Is 'Grapeseed Carrier Oil' the same as Sterile oil as thats whats coming up in google.

I might try the Outer Glute next time like you said. Just a bit worried about the angle and wobbling the needle about. Cant be doing wit not being able to sit down for a week lol

----------


## Obs

> I know I am going to regret saying this but I have never had an issue with the injection site. Knock on wood. Make sure you rotate your injection sites. I personally only pin in the the gluteus maximus. IMHO when you do the leg muscle up have a greater chance of having pain in the injection site. That is why when you go to the doctor they give you a shot in the gluteus maximus or the deltoid injection site.
> 
> I personally do not aspirate my shots nor take very long pushing it in. But I have been doing this for *years*. *I do have my wife give me my shots in my left glute because I can only give it on my right side correctly.*


I can do right but not left. I dont asperate either on glutes simply because after 100's of glute injections I have never hit a vein at 1.5".

I have back injury and have put on enough muscle wiping my ass is a chore at times. If my back is hurting it becomes a quest.h

----------


## songdog

> It has been frustrating lately especially. There has been a tidal wave of underage cyclers posting lately. Its easy to jump the gun. I find I have had to restrain myself from terrible rants lately so I made a new young guy thread. 
> 
> Jangles, glad to see you are 30. 1987 was a good year.
> I spent the whole year suckin tit and getting everything I wanted as fast as those around me could suit my needs. 
> 
> The monitors here have a tough job. I keep answering questions guys have only to find out they are 20 and then I feel like an ass for not checking. I have given a junior varsity football team the perfect guide for cycling trenbolone, completely on accident.


I knew you were a liptard :Chairshot:

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> Thats amazing for you mate. Its not a game changer, but the pip is annoying. 
> 
> I always put the vial in a cup of boiling water but dont like to submerge the vial. I assumed it wouldn't be a good idea to do that.... Maybe I am wrong here haha. 
> 
> What gauge are you using for 10 second injections lol ?
> 
> Takes me 60 seconds or more to push the test E in (250mg) with a 23 gauge.


The vials can't submerge bud,they're half full of air,they just bob about. Not sure about the gauge,i just use the blue tops for injection,and the green tops
for loading.Get them from the needle exchange in the UK.They supply you with the necessary gauge.

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> I can do right but not left. I dont asperate either on glutes simply because after 100's of glute injections I have never hit a vein at 1.5".
> 
> I have back injury and have put on enough muscle wiping my ass is a chore at times. If my back is hurting it becomes a quest.h


Ha! i'm suffering a pretty rough sciatic episode as i print this.Incline shoulder press caused it,but then again it doesn't take much,
as my lower back is mush.You're fortunate for arse wiping to be just 'a chore', i have to wipe 'through',and end up with brown balls!

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> The vials can't submerge bud,they're half full of air,they just bob about. Not sure about the gauge,i just use the blue tops for injection,and the green tops
> for loading.Get them from the needle exchange in the UK.They supply you with the necessary gauge.


Sorry mate,must've been having
a Homer Simpson moment.Checked needles,and they're 1" and 23 gauge. DOH!

----------


## Chicagotarsier

Just to stir the pot....

Illegal drug users point out that some people are underage to use illegal drugs..lol...

In reality next year I am having a vertebrae shaved to relieve a nerve pinch causing sciatic nerve issues in my left leg. it is no joke.

----------


## Jangles1

> Just to stir the pot....
> 
> Illegal drug users point out that some people are underage to use illegal drugs..lol...
> 
> In reality next year I am having a vertebrae shaved to relieve a nerve pinch causing sciatic nerve issues in my left leg. it is no joke.



haha fair points. It is quite ironic but its important to not do these AAS underage due to obvious reasons!

----------


## Jangles1

Tbol back pump !

Weird feeling. Felt it for the first time yesterday, on back day. 

Only doing 50mg a day and yesterday was day 5. 

Its a strange feeling. It doesn't hurt (yet), more like a build up of lactic acid like when you do Calf raises etc. 

Interesting to say the least!

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> Just to stir the pot....
> 
> Illegal drug users point out that some people are underage to use illegal drugs..lol...
> 
> In reality next year I am having a vertebrae shaved to relieve a nerve pinch causing sciatic nerve issues in my left leg. it is no joke.


Mmmm interesting.I've never heard of vertebrae shaving before,think i'll have a bit read up on it.
Yeah it's no joke,sometimes i just have a bit of an ache running from my arse to my ankle,but sometimes i'm flat on my back
because i can't even stand up the pain is that severe!

----------


## GearHeaded

> Illegal drug users point out that some people are underage to use illegal drugs..lol...


just to clarify , a lot of anabolic steroids are NOT illegal drugs. they are perfectly legal in the USA when obtained by prescription . not all AAS are considered contraband . and if you go outside the US you can find plenty of places they are perfectly legal even without a script.

I've legally obtained in the past from a doctor , test cyp, test prop, primobolan , deca , and hgh . if any of those were considered 'illegal drugs' the doc would never of gave them to me.

----------


## charger69

GH- they are illegal without a prescription and are classified as class 3 (most). You can get time by the feds without a prescription. 
This is the reason that so many Drs are not willing to give prescriptions for TRT. My Dr came out and told me. 
I agree if you have a prescription, your cool. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## David LoPan

> GH- they are illegal without a prescription and are classified as class 3 (most). You can get time by the feds without a prescription. 
> This is the reason that so many Dr’s are not willing to give prescriptions for TRT. My Dr came out and told me. 
> I agree if you have a prescription, your cool. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any drug that is written and dispensed per RX by a doctor and filled by a pharmacy, per FDA/DEA rules is considered a Controlled Dangerous Substance. Even having something like Cialis without a RX is a felony by law enforcement in the USA. Every Country has its own laws so make sure you know what they are to cover your own ass.

----------


## Jangles1

*Day 30* 

*Pin*

Tried to do my right glute for the first time but I just knew it would result in a bad pin. I decided got do right Vento Glute. My best one yet. 

*Gym* 

Start of week 5 yesterday and I do feel solid. Unsure how much of a placebo it is but I def feel great in terms of strength. Getting extra reps out on every single exercise. 

*Diet* 

Had a bit of a shit week last week. It was solid throughout but I did have 2 dominos pizzas and a TGI Fridays. I def went over my 3500 surplus for all 3 of those days. Im not feeling too bad as I am bulking haha, but its hard not to feel guilty to not being 200 % on your diet... But It is what it is. Family engagements or birthdays make things hard sometimes. I did try and stick to chicken, beef etc... 

*Weight* 

*Start of Week 1 - 170.4
Start of Week 5 - 184.4*

I knew I had a heavy calorie surplus Wednesday, Friday and Saturday so Sunday was absolutely perfect, but I still weighted in at 186.6 Monday morning. 

Monday was also 100 % perfect and today I weighed in at 184.4 today.... 

So looks like a 4lbs weigh gain from last week and 14lbs in total.... 


*Sides*

Tbol back pumps seem to be creeping in on leg day and back day. I am using 5g of Taurine each day but I can feel those pumps building.

*PIP*

Slight bit of a sore leg, dead leg nothing serious. 

*Conclusion*

All seems to be going well. 14lbs in 4 weeks seems excessive but I guess we will see how it plays out. 


Progress PIC - attached

----------


## songdog

Good luck keep pushing hard!

----------


## Jangles1

Thanks man. Im really working my aas off (lol) 

Its crazy how truly dedicated you need to be to make real changes to your body. 

Ive quit drinking for this entire cycle and staying at home a lot when friends are out etc. 

For anyone serious about AAS, you need to do it right.... Cant be going out partying like I usually do !

----------


## Capebuffalo

> *Day 30* 
> 
> *Pin*
> 
> Tried to do my right glute for the first time but I just knew it would result in a bad pin. I decided got do right Vento Glute. My best one yet. 
> 
> *Gym* 
> 
> Start of week 5 yesterday and I do feel solid. Unsure how much of a placebo it is but I def feel great in terms of strength. Getting extra reps out on every single exercise. 
> ...


How many years did you say you’ve been training?
Can you give a sample of one of your training sessions?
Would you mind listing everything you ate yesterday? I’m real curious.

----------


## Jangles1

Yep


*Training* 


Training since 2013 but i've never made the gains I truly wanted due to inconsistent training brought on solely by injuries. I have changed my body composition a lot, but wanted to take it to the next level with AAS. I never gave up though and bulked to 205lbs adding about 6lbs of muscle and a lot of fat (due to more injury), then spent time slowly cutting down over 6 months ready to start my bulk again. My injuries have made it tough but I am not giving up!


*My routine* 


This was designed by a friend who's body would be to die for. He is a personal trainer and also competes. 


*Legs & Abs
*
Smith Squat 
Romanian Deadlift 
Leg Press 
Leg Extension 
Leg Curls 

Seated calf Press 
Seated calf raise 

Leg Raises 
Weighuted Sit-ups 

* 
Chest & Triceps* 

Incline bench 
Seated Dumbbell Press 
DB Cables 

Close grip press
Skull crushers
Dips


*Shoulders & Oblique & Calves* 

BB Shoulder Press 
DB side
DB front raises 
Dumbbell Shrugs 
Barbell Shrugs

Standing calf raise 
Seated calf raise

Oblique side bends
Oblique Ball Twist 


*Back & Biceps* 


Lat Pull Down
Bent Over Row
Machine Row
Deadlift 

Standing Hammer curls
Seated DB Curls 
Standing Bicep Bar Curls


*Chest, Calves, Tricep Abs*

Incline bench
Seated Dumbbell Press 
Dips 
Skullcrushers

Standing calf raise - 4xMax (30kg)
Seated calf raise - 4xMax (65kg)

*Diet*


3500 cals 


*Breakfast* 

100g oats 
400ml semi milk 
400 ml milk with 32g casein protein 
20 almonds 

*Lunch* 

Moroccan chicken, consisting of - Olive oil, onions, honey, chicken stock and chicken (480 cals)
100g uncooked rice 

*Dinner* 

Chicken breast 269g
White potatoes 492g
Cherry Tomatos (didn't weigh)
Broccoli (didn't weigh)
Asparagus (didn't weigh)

*Snacks* 

Longdale Farm Organic Natural Yogurt with fresh Raspberry 
400 ml milk with 32g casein protein 

----

*Macros*

Protein - 281
Fat - 66
Carbs 383

----------


## Obs

> Yep
> 
> 
> *Training* 
> 
> 
> Training since 2013 but i've never made the gains I truly wanted due to inconsistent training brought on solely by injuries. I have changed my body composition a lot, but wanted to take it to the next level with AAS. I never gave up though and bulked to 205lbs adding about 6lbs of muscle and a lot of fat (due to more injury), then spent time slowly cutting down over 6 months ready to start my bulk again. My injuries have made it tough but I am not giving up!
> 
> 
> ...


Not being critical or mean but you havent come close to a plateau or trained consistently at all or ate consistently at all. My job for 10 years was more training than the training you have done. You haven't trained or ate a lick man. 

I would suggest a thyroid panel if you lifted and ate like you say more than once a week on average. Possible you have a hyperactive thyroid. 

I don't know what injuries you have had but HIV isn't technically an injury man. You arent ready for this yet but I know I am just talking to a wall I am sure.

----------


## Jangles1

Thanks for your input. Appreciate you taking your time to input. 

You’re right i’m not stopping half way through a 12 week cycle. Very happy with the results so far. As I say, appreciate your opinion. 

I’ve logged everything for 5 weeks and all has gone very well. I lift smart (something I’ve learnt through shoulder injuries) and don’t ego lift. Not getting any mad strength so i know i’m not doing any legiment or any damages there. I was 205 at the start of the year, so My body has experienced that weight. 

I’ve been counting calories and dieting and training for years so I will 100 % mention this to my doctor when I try and get bloods next week. I do think I’ve just never got to my 200lbs 10% bodyfat goal due to the setbacks I’ve had. 

Other then starting a little light, I have been more than thorough every step of the way on my cycle. 

I’ve planned and executed this cycle perfectly (other than I guess saying I had 3 cheat meals last week instead of 2). 

Unsure what your HIV comment means.

----------


## David LoPan

> Thanks man. Im really working my aas off (lol) 
> 
> Its crazy how truly dedicated you need to be to make real changes to your body. 
> 
> Ive quit drinking for this entire cycle and staying at home a lot when friends are out etc. 
> 
> For anyone serious about AAS, you need to do it right.... Cant be going out partying like I usually do !


While on cycle you are right, NO DRINKING (or other req things). Your body does need to have sleep. Your body needs to have that parasympathetic system working so your body can recover. Try to go to bed and get up and the same time everyday and you will see a huge difference.

----------


## Capebuffalo

> Yep
> 
> 
> *Training* 
> 
> 
> Training since 2013 but i've never made the gains I truly wanted due to inconsistent training brought on solely by injuries. I have changed my body composition a lot, but wanted to take it to the next level with AAS. I never gave up though and bulked to 205lbs adding about 6lbs of muscle and a lot of fat (due to more injury), then spent time slowly cutting down over 6 months ready to start my bulk again. My injuries have made it tough but I am not giving up!
> 
> 
> ...



Ok.....

----------


## David LoPan

> *Day 30* 
> 
> 
> All seems to be going well. 14lbs in 4 weeks seems excessive but I guess we will see how it plays out. 
> 
> 
> Progress PIC - attached 
> 
> 
> Attachment 171044Attachment 171044


Base on a few things you posted I would like to offer a suggestion. Work on your core and your shoulders. I know you have a history of the shoulder injury but you need to work them hard with light weight. Those 3 and 5 pound weights are your best friend and you will learn to have a love/hate relatioship with them. I think doing a lot of Planks will pay off huge for your as well for both your core and shoulders. Again, just a suggestion based on your photos.

----------


## GearHeaded

> Base on a few things you posted I would like to offer a suggestion. Work on your core and your shoulders. I know you have a history of the shoulder injury but you need to work them hard with light weight. *Those 3 and 5 pound weights are your best friend* and you will learn to have a love/hate relatioship with them. I think doing a lot of Planks will pay off huge for your as well for both your core and shoulders. Again, just a suggestion based on your photos.


3 pound weights ? I'm confused, what type of shoulder exercises are we talking about here?

my approach to big shoulders, thickness, and roundness is to progressively overload strict over head press. start with 135 lbs and work up to doing 225 for reps. shoulders won't have a choice but to grow . add 5-10 pounds every couple weeks

----------


## David LoPan

> 3 pound weights ? I'm confused, what type of shoulder exercises are we talking about here?
> 
> my approach to big shoulders, thickness, and roundness is to progressively overload strict over head press. start with 135 lbs and work up to doing 225 for reps. shoulders won't have a choice but to grow . add 5-10 pounds every couple weeks


When you get done with that workout pick up the the 5-pound weights and lift them 90, 45 and straight out until muscle failure in sets of 3. Then go to 3 pounds and repeat it. 

GearHead, your shoulders are huge. I was basing this on his pictures and history of shoulder injury. You already have a great foundation and as you know if your shoulders are the foundation for the rest of your upper body. I have had bylateral shoulder surgey twice and ending my shoulder workout with those weights makes a huge difference.

----------


## GearHeaded

> When you get done with that workout pick up the the 5-pound weights and lift them 90, 45 and straight out until muscle failure in sets of 3. Then go to 3 pounds and repeat it.


ok this makes sense doing this AFTER the main workout and compounds are finished . imagine your driving a lot of blood and metabolites and getting a fairly painful pump doing this high reps to failure 




> GearHead, your shoulders are huge. I was basing this on his pictures and history of shoulder injury. You already have a great foundation and as you know if your shoulders are the foundation for the rest of your upper body. I have had bylateral shoulder surgey twice and ending my shoulder workout with those weights makes a huge difference.


from my experience building that 'foundation' is best done by progressively overloading relatively heavy, but strict form, compound lifts . like I said if he started over head pressing 135 pounds today , and over a years time adds weight every couple a weeks and gets to say 225 pounds , then his foundation will be much more developed .

adding in some accessory work and metabolite training like you suggest is beneficial as well , but the meat and potatoes should be focused on compound lifts Imo

----------


## David LoPan

I should have stated after your normal shoulder workout. You are 100% correct on the rest. I do have to do a few shoulder shrugs with heavyweight after this and I pray I do not have to wipe my butt that night due to I can't lift my arms. Doing this has kept the ortho away and given me excellent results.

----------


## Jangles1

Im doing 

4 sets of overhead
4 sets of front raise
4 sets of side lat rases

then 2 types of shrugs, both 4 sets (dumbell and barebell)


Surely this is plenty to grow my shoulders ?

----------


## Jangles1

> Ok.....


Cool diet. 

Way too much fat for me atm though. My Protein atm is more than 1.5 per lbs, so rather keep fats low and carbs higher for energy.

----------


## Jangles1

> While on cycle you are right, NO DRINKING (or other req things). Your body does need to have sleep. Your body needs to have that parasympathetic system working so your body can recover. Try to go to bed and get up and the same time everyday and you will see a huge difference.


Yeah that would be counter productive. Even with Xmas coming up, I knew I was startig this cycle, so I wont be drinking at all on it. Not a big drinker anyway, but a typical binge drinker. Il go out 3 or 4 times a year and have a 12 hour sesh lol.

----------


## Jangles1

> Base on a few things you posted I would like to offer a suggestion. Work on your core and your shoulders. I know you have a history of the shoulder injury but you need to work them hard with light weight. Those 3 and 5 pound weights are your best friend and you will learn to have a love/hate relatioship with them. I think doing a lot of Planks will pay off huge for your as well for both your core and shoulders. Again, just a suggestion based on your photos.


Going to add planks to my abs routine now !

----------


## tarmyg

Jangles1,

I understand you are trying to learn but you look like you just got out of the Minnesota Starvation Experiment on the pictures and reading through this whole thing tells me, regardless of other comments, you need to learn how to eat. Now, if you got super fat and all the way to 200 some pounds and then dieted down again it simply shows that your nutrition experience, in regards to how your own body responds, is lacking. 

In regards to training, you just posted your shoulder routine and said: "Surely this is plenty to grow my shoulders ?". No one can answer that in those simple terms as it depends on how that routine is performed. As you can see in other logs around this forum some have great success with HIT training and others with massive Volume.

As you have some basic knowledge now create an exact nutrition log and ask for feedback and let us help you grow. Look in Marcus300 **Marcus's HIT Dungeon** thread to get ideas on how those guys are training or in kronik420's "Kronik's German Volume Training log" so you have options in regards to training. And for god's sake man, do not cycle until you have this stuff somewhat figured out and do a real cycle, not this other crap because why the hell shut you down for almost a replacement dose of test. Makes absolutely no sense, AT ALL!

My 2c, not sure it's worth that much!!!

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Jangles1,
> 
> I understand you are trying to learn but you look like you just got out of the Minnesota Starvation Experiment on the pictures and reading through this whole thing tells me, regardless of other comments, you need to learn how to eat. Now, if you got super fat and all the way to 200 some pounds and then dieted down again it simply shows that your nutrition experience, in regards to how your own body responds, is lacking. 
> 
> In regards to training, you just posted your shoulder routine and said: "Surely this is plenty to grow my shoulders ?". No one can answer that in those simple terms as it depends on how that routine is performed. As you can see in other logs around this forum some have great success with HIT training and others with massive Volume.
> 
> As you have some basic knowledge now create an exact nutrition log and ask for feedback and let us help you grow. Look in Marcus300 **Marcus's HIT Dungeon** thread to get ideas on how those guys are training or in kronik420's "Kronik's German Volume Training log" so you have options in regards to training. And for god's sake man, do not cycle until you have this stuff somewhat figured out and do a real cycle, not this other crap because why the hell shut you down for almost a replacement dose of test. Makes absolutely no sense, AT ALL!
> 
> My 2c, not sure it's worth that much!!!


Agreed.

I would even go as far to say if you had nailed your training and nutrition, you would gain far more in 12 weeks naturally than running your cycle right now.

Marcus's thread is a good place to start.

If you can't grow without gear. You wont be able to hold on to muscle without gear

----------


## Jangles1

Hey both of you. First off, I DO massively appreciate 1) your experience and 2) your ability to come to a thread and be constructive while trying to help. That says a lot about your characters. 

I am not one of those guys that comes and asks for help and then totally diminishes the help. I am actually a tutor in a specialised area and find it laughable when people pay me good money for tutoring and then totally ignore me. With that being said, please do not think I am one of those dicks who asks for advice and ignores answers he does not want to here. I want to learn and take on constructive feedback. It doesn't mean I will do everything people tell me, but I am open to developing my knowledge and experience more. 

To the next part of this post....


I think there are some misunderstandings around this entire thread which are brought on all by *myself*. I believe the fair assumption you guys are raising are due to me (in hindsight) 'starting my cycle too early' (more on that below)

I know how to eat and I can grow (bare with me here). I have done plenty of times and I have changed my body comp plenty. Before I first started lifting in 2014 I was a fucking 6ft rake with a huge belly from loads of fizzy drinks and craop diet. However through training I have gone from being that horrible rake with a belly to just being tall and not as full as most people. I guess you would call it skinny.

My issue is that I never broke through to the next level (skinny to filled out with muscle) due to inconsistent training due to *injury*. I highlight injury because the is an important factor in this topic. Its not lack of will power or dedication. Most people would have given up years ago with my shity injurys and issues (my body shape is just not designing to lift weights. Im tall and boney and i'm really fighting my genetics). Not me, I have educated myself more and more every time I have a setback and I come back better (diet and training). 

As I say as I say, although my starting pic looks bad, *look* at my diet on page 3. My nutrition is not an issue. I believe my training and gym knowledge is not an issue. Im not a pro but Im fairly educated on form and what is a good plan and what is a bad plan (Heavy Compound Lifts focusing on mind to muscle etc compared to a 5 week bro split doing 500 bicep curls / training mirror muscles etc. 

My biggest set back has been injury after injury (3 in total with 4-6 months off in-between each one). This has meant ive not been able to pack on loads of lean mass and have always been forced to stop my bulk earlier than I planned. I kept up cardio but with out being able to lift, the majority of the gains I have made go and there was admittedly times I felt like giving up and went off the wagon for a few months. I always pulled it back thou

With this cycle I wanted to get down to 12/13% BF and start an AAS cycle to aid me a clean bulk. It took me ages to do this as I aimed to loose 0.5 / 1lbs a month. Slow and steady while always lifting. 

Now I admit that I should have slowly bulked to 185 without AAS, but with my injuries I guess I was worried I would hurt myself again and while I was healthy I wanted to try ASS to assist me on this bulk. I am not arguing if this is right or wrong because I know I was inpatient looking back. But I have my reasons and thats something you simply cant answer to unless you have been through what I have with setbacks. Its the absolute worse thing in the world when you have the desire and work ethic to achieve something and cannot due to your body. I see my fat ass mates on the sofa moaning about their health and here is me with this will to change and knowledge, but keeps getting let down with injury. Its not like I am doing silly shit either. My first injury was caused due to bad form, but I learn QUICK about how to lift correctly. Unfortunately for me, that first injury set my entire arm / shoulder / back up for reoccurring injures regardless of form.

I thank you for your help and I will carry on with the final 6 weeks of this plan. So far I have put on 14lbs and am getting loads of comments how great I am looking. The gym is going amazing and I am lifting smart and not even doing crazy weight. FORM >>> WEIGHT. I feel more confident than I ever have, so whether you agree or disagree that me doing my first cycle now, I don't regret it. Even though I know I should have waited 3/6 months. 

I am sure some of you will disagree with me carrying on, and thats fine. Its your opinion and you're welcome to express it on this public forum. 

Just know, I am not trying to be a know a no it all. I am not claiming I know better. If I could go back to 6 weeks ago with this advice and hard hitting feedback I would do a 6 month clean bulk then do a first cycle. But I cant turn back time and I am finishing what I have started due to the massive success It is having right now and how I look and feel. 

I have approach this entire process absolutely meticulously and other than starting my cycle at a low weight (silly looking back with all the feedback and knowledge I have learnt on this forum), my approach and appliance to AAS has being thorough. 

Hopefully you will respect this choice and can carry on checking out the thread.

----------


## Capebuffalo

Do you have an old picture when you were holding the most muscle. I️ ask because from your recent pictures you don’t have a base to start aas 

As for your 14 lbs that going to be mostly water.

----------


## Jangles1

No pics that stage. I was burgled and lost all my HDD pics when they stole my iMac and external.

In terms of 14lbs being water... No doubt, but thats how all Test E cycles start. Lean muscle will start to be formed in the next coming weeks. 


Diet today 


*Breakfast* 

Oats 
Protein Shake 
Almonds

*Lunch* 

Chicken 
White Potatoes 
Onion 
Olive Oil 
Sweetcorn 
Broccoli

*Dinner*

Sirloin Steak 
Sweet Potato 
Olive Oil 
Cherry Tomatmos 
Green Beens 
Sweetcorn 

*Snacks*

Low fat organic natural yogurt 
Protein Shake 



Total will be 3500 cals with at least 280g of Protein

Its only 13.40 here and although thats what I will be having today, Its not being added into My Fitness Pal yet. I manipulate my macro consumption with each meal to ensure I get the macros I am aiming for (High Protein, Low Fat... Rest of my allowance to be filled with complex carbs.

----------


## Jangles1

Shoulders & Oblique & Calves today 

4 sets of each. 

I added calves to this routine so I can grow my genetically challenged calves. Ive read minimum 3 times a week for growth.

BB Shoulder Press
DB side raise
DB front raise
Dumbbell Shrugs
Barbell Shrugs

Standing calf raise 
Seated calf raise 

Oblique side bends 
Oblique Ball Twist

----------


## ghettoboyd

I have seen your pics and I honestly feel you should stop doing a split routine and go to full body workouts 3 days a week no cardio and focus on eating...and keep your routine simple like 2 exercises per body part 2 sets each so you would be doing a total of 10-12 sets per workout...I feel you will see better results quicker this way imho...my 2 cents for free...

----------


## Jerry2020

I feel like Jangles has copped a bit of unnecessary flak from people. And Im certainly not saying I know more than you guys, Ive only just started my first cycle, but I can see what Jangles means.

No he is not big at the moment, and plenty of blokes have no doubt built much greater foundations before starting AAS, but I see where hes coming from. I have looked at his progress pics so far and it is making a difference already, hes looking much better and filling out. Will he keep it? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Either way, just because hes not a bodybuilder naturally doesnt mean he cant get some genuine results from AAS. Yes he could probably achieve results with some more time and effort naturally, but some people (and Im one) have put in a hell of a lot of work for what are really underwhelming results, and its frustrating as all hell knowing I dont feel that I resemble the effort I put into the gym and diet and lifestyle in general. I think this is where Jangles is at.

Ill be watching closely Jangles as Im 2 weeks into my first cycle too and cant wait for some results to start kicking in, keep up the good work, youre already balls deep into this thing so hopefully any criticism is constructive from here on as you obviously arent quitting now haha, good luck mate!

----------


## hollowedzeus

> I feel like Jangles has copped a bit of unnecessary flak from people. And I’m certainly not saying I know more than you guys, I’ve only just started my first cycle, but I can see what Jangles means.
> 
> No he is not big at the moment, and plenty of blokes have no doubt built much greater foundations before starting AAS, but I see where he’s coming from. I have looked at his progress pics so far and it is making a difference already, he’s looking much better and filling out. Will he keep it? Maybe yes, maybe no.
> 
> Either way, just because he’s not a bodybuilder naturally doesn’t mean he can’t get some genuine results from AAS. Yes he could probably achieve results with some more time and effort naturally, but some people (and I’m one) have put in a hell of a lot of work for what are really underwhelming results, and it’s frustrating as all hell knowing I don’t feel that I resemble the effort I put into the gym and diet and lifestyle in general. I think this is where Jangles is at.
> 
> I’ll be watching closely Jangles as I’m 2 weeks into my first cycle too and can’t wait for some results to start kicking in, keep up the good work, you’re already balls deep into this thing so hopefully any criticism is constructive from here on as you obviously aren’t quitting now haha, good luck mate!


I also completely understand where he is coming from and can appreciate why he started.

I wouldnt say he recieved any flak from us but certianly some concern. Other boards would be 'go on bro. Youre doing great'. This board is more conservative and asks if aas is really necessary for your goal. They are potentially life altering drugs so are not to be taken because you cant sort your diet out.

Hes in it for the biscuit now. I hope jangles gets wht he wants out of it without any reprecussions.

Theres plenty of guys that started off as very skinny weak guys then turned into monsters. Its very possible.

I wish the best of luck to you both.

----------


## Jerry2020

Yeah Im pretty stoked I found these forums. Has definitely made me go down a more conservative (Test E only) approach for my first cycle and all the ancillaries are emphasised as well, the info is extremely helpful

----------


## Obs

> I feel like Jangles has copped a bit of unnecessary flak from people. And I’m certainly not saying I know more than you guys, I’ve only just started my first cycle, but I can see what Jangles means.
> 
> No he is not big at the moment, and plenty of blokes have no doubt built much greater foundations before starting AAS, but I see where he’s coming from. I have looked at his progress pics so far and it is making a difference already, he’s looking much better and filling out. Will he keep it? Maybe yes, maybe no.
> 
> Either way, just because he’s not a bodybuilder naturally doesn’t mean he can’t get some genuine results from AAS. Yes he could probably achieve results with some more time and effort naturally, but some people (and I’m one) have put in a hell of a lot of work for what are really underwhelming results, and it’s frustrating as all hell knowing I don’t feel that I resemble the effort I put into the gym and diet and lifestyle in general. I think this is where Jangles is at.
> 
> I’ll be watching closely Jangles as I’m 2 weeks into my first cycle too and can’t wait for some results to start kicking in, keep up the good work, you’re already balls deep into this thing so hopefully any criticism is constructive from here on as you obviously aren’t quitting now haha, good luck mate!


No one here is trying to cut him down. No one hear will tell someone what they want to hear though. Its about dedication. If you cant dedicate yourself long enough to fill out your frame naturally then AAS will be an unnecessary drama to your life.

Everyone unfamiliar withAAS thinks AAS is all about gains with as little effort as possible. One thing that initial natty traing gets you is it makes you lose that mindset. We dont lift for x number of reps and call it good. Its that failing rep we want, set after set.
This is constructive not destructive. 

Everything he is looking for from this cycle he could get naturally in a few months of proper diet and training. The difference is he would keep the natty gains. What he gains from this cycle will give him two steps forward and 1.75 steps back. A good base is vital.

No one listens to experience, they want what they want and they want it now. This mindset always leads to sub par results. Thats ok though... Average are doomed to stay that way and the exceptional will rise. Half efforts reap half benefits. We have given him the advice to reap full benefits but he has chosen half benifits to do it how he thinks will be easiest. 

Bodybuilding is the purest example of difficult you will find. The path of least resistance is the exact opposite of bodybuilding. We all will seek the most resistance, or we will fail miserably at our goals. We aren't performing surgery, we are tearing and regenerating muscle. The hardasses here are the best in the world at this. 

I have soken my piece. Sincerly, Obs

----------


## Jerry2020

I beg to differ. Its because of the words of yourself and others on these boards that Ive gone about my cycle in the way I have, avoiding all the other possible combinations and add on steroids available and sticking to the boring test e first cycle to set myself up for the long run. There are plenty of people who dont listen, and thats their problem, but I think its grossly underestimating the power of your advice to say that no one listens to it.

Not everyone wants or needs to be exceptional. Ive resigned to the fact there will always be bigger, better, stronger guys than me. My goal is to feel as confident and comfortable in my own skin as possible and to utilise all the tools I can to make that happen, with the knowledge that the more exogenous help you get the greater the risk. At 27 and training consistently for 10+ years I believe its worth the risk, mainly because I have the word of yourself and others on here to guide me towards risk mitigation.

Anyway weve got off track and Ive blurred the lines between my situation and Jangles, I just have an appreciation for where hes at, Im not immune to the inclination that human beings have to take the easy way, in essence this isnt really the easy way anyway, have a good one lads

----------


## Chicagotarsier

Shoot your test three times a week

Eat chicken breast for protein
Eat a starch you like for carbs
Eat broccoli and green leafy vegetables so you are not stopped up like a corn cob
Minimize your fat to a decent level

HIT training is good for intermediate to advanced lifters. You are not this. You need reps at 60-70% your irep max weight...lots of reps. 10x10 your bench. 10 x 10 your military press. 10 x 20 your squats.

You will get the best results possible from the cycle from where you are starting with this advice. Getting past novice level to AAS level will require you to just do what is told and measure your results. I guarantee you will be amazed. Just honest advice from a guy who has climbed the mountain from Novice to Intermediate.

----------


## Jangles1

I’m doing 10-12 rep range but atm.

----------


## Jangles1

> No one here is trying to cut him down. No one hear will tell someone what they want to hear though. Its about dedication. If you cant dedicate yourself long enough to fill out your frame naturally then AAS will be an unnecessary drama to your life.
> 
> Everyone unfamiliar withAAS thinks AAS is all about gains with as little effort as possible. One thing that initial natty traing gets you is it makes you lose that mindset. We dont lift for x number of reps and call it good. Its that failing rep we want, set after set.
> This is constructive not destructive. 
> 
> Everything he is looking for from this cycle he could get naturally in a few months of proper diet and training. The difference is he would keep the natty gains. What he gains from this cycle will give him two steps forward and 1.75 steps back. A good base is vital.
> 
> No one listens to experience, they want what they want and they want it now. This mindset always leads to sub par results. Thats ok though... Average are doomed to stay that way and the exceptional will rise. Half efforts reap half benefits. We have given him the advice to reap full benefits but he has chosen half benifits to do it how he thinks will be easiest. 
> 
> ...


You clearly didn’t read my post. It’s not for lack of effort or dedication. 


Not here to argue your opinion anyway, but why do you assume that I will loose all the muscle I put on from this cycle ?

6 week PCT

6 months minimum at a calorie surpluses before i do mini cut. 

Can’t see why I would loose my added muscle tbf. 

At the end of the day I’m in a 500 cal surpluss of great food and I am training 5 times a week. Take away the aas and I’m doing a normal clean bulk. Adding 500mg of test is a beginner dose and I can’t see why I would loose the lean tissue gains I make from the aas in this cycle as long as my training and diet stay the same once I finish the cycle.

----------


## Jangles1

> I have seen your pics and I honestly feel you should stop doing a split routine and go to full body workouts 3 days a week no cardio and focus on eating...and keep your routine simple like 2 exercises per body part 2 sets each so you would be doing a total of 10-12 sets per workout...I feel you will see better results quicker this way imho...my 2 cents for free...



Will 100 % look into this, but can you tell me more about why you feel it will benefit me ?

3 days a week is too little for me tbh. 4 min to feel in my mind I’m working hard.

----------


## songdog

> You clearly didn’t read my post. It’s not for lack of effort or dedication. 
> 
> 
> Not here to argue your opinion anyway, but why do you assume that I will loose all the muscle I put on from this cycle ?
> 
> 6 week PCT
> 
> 6 months minimum at a calorie surpluses before i do mini cut. 
> 
> ...


Mini cut Jangles I am not trying to be mean or rude but you have nothing too cut if you get anything out of this cycle keep it and when it's time bulk again.You are only holding water right now and when your cycle is over that will be gone.And if you cut any thing you might gain you will lose.But you been told this so do wat you are going to do!

----------


## Obs

> You clearly didn’t read my post. It’s not for lack of effort or dedication. 
> 
> 
> Not here to argue your opinion anyway, but why do you assume that I will loose all the muscle I put on from this cycle ?
> 
> 6 week PCT
> 
> 6 months minimum at a calorie surpluses before i do mini cut. 
> 
> ...


Lack of training and eating is exactly why you are where you are and you will lose everything you gain on this cycle aside from 5 lb. It literally works this way for everyone. You throw 20-40 lbs on something without a base and as soon as the compounds are removed you will return to your previous state with 5 lbs of lean mass you could have put on naturally.

You will never see growth like your first year of training. You will never have a cycle like your first.

No base means you won't get half the results you could.

----------


## Capebuffalo

> Lack of training and eating is exactly why you are where you are and you will lose everything you gain on this cycle aside from 5 lb. It literally works this way for everyone. You throw 20-40 lbs on something without a base and as soon as the compounds are removed you will return to your previous state with 5 lbs of lean mass you could have put on naturally.
> 
> You will never see growth like your first year of training. You will never have a cycle like your first.
> 
> No base means you won't get half the results you could.


Wasting your time Obs. He’s got it all figured out and an answer for everything.

----------


## ghettoboyd

> Will 100 % look into this, but can you tell me more about why you feel it will benefit me ?
> 
> 3 days a week is too little for me tbh. 4 min to feel in my mind I’m working hard.


you can do it 4 days if you must but you need to realize you grow outside the gym when you are sleeping so you need rest...I feel because you are a beginner( I know you don't think you are but you are) pumping up your muscles a few times a week rather than 1x will help your overall development and since you are taking aas you should be recovering quicker that if your diet is on point...im really trying to not sound condescending here you seem to be smart enough just overthinking things...good luck...

----------


## kelkel

> I feel like Jangles has copped a bit of unnecessary flak from people. And I’m certainly not saying I know more than you guys, I’ve only just started my first cycle, but I can see what Jangles means.
> 
> No he is not big at the moment, and plenty of blokes have no doubt built much greater foundations before starting AAS, but I see where he’s coming from. I have looked at his progress pics so far and it is making a difference already, he’s looking much better and filling out. Will he keep it? Maybe yes, maybe no.
> 
> Either way, just because he’s not a bodybuilder naturally doesn’t mean he can’t get some genuine results from AAS. Yes he could probably achieve results with some more time and effort naturally, but some people (and I’m one) have put in a hell of a lot of work for what are really underwhelming results, and it’s frustrating as all hell knowing I don’t feel that I resemble the effort I put into the gym and diet and lifestyle in general. I think this is where Jangles is at.
> 
> I’ll be watching closely Jangles as I’m 2 weeks into my first cycle too and can’t wait for some results to start kicking in, keep up the good work, you’re already balls deep into this thing so hopefully any criticism is constructive from here on as you obviously aren’t quitting now haha, good luck mate!



Nice post Jerry.

----------


## stickynote23

Sooo much flame here.

jangles, one thing to keep in mind here. There are a LOT of people on this board with incredible knowledge, and REALLY awesome for typing it out and sharing it. However, the long-term members here have a completely different goal than you, which is the very reason they are still here. You want to run a couple cycles and stabilize. Most of the folks here want to 'get as big as possible', and they frame their recommendations through that light. With that in mind all the advice you're getting here makes sense. 

- Spend more time building a base (even if it's a smaller improvement), because after 5,10,15 cycles you'll be further ahead.
- Eat more and start bigger, learn to REALLY bulk. Again, makes sense because after multiple cycles you'll be further ahead than starting where you're at.

Among 99% of the population, your build is good, your discipline and routine are fantastic. But they aren't optimal if you're looking to pin for a decade and get as big as possible.

You're (currently) looking for limited (2-3) cycles to hit a specific physique, then to stop and go back to what you were doing before. That's like walking into a crossfit box at 6' 280lbs and talking about how great powerlifting is. Everyone is gonna try to convince you that you're wrong and unhealthy and not building functional muscle. But if you want to powerlift... you're probably doing well at 6' 280lbs. Same thing here.

People here with laserlike bodybuilding focus are framing your progress with their own goals and saying "this dude is doing it wrong". Which you are. Keep in mind that most people with your goal (whether they hit it or not) are going to be on this forum for a cycle or two and then gone, the guys who stick around will be running constant cycles.

Just a bit of what I've observed by reading this forum for the last few months. I'm watching your thread and finding it useful though. Keep it up.

PS A note to keep in mind though. Why do you feel you want to stop after 2-3 cycles? Is there an external limitation, or do you just feel that after 2-3 cycles it'll be 'good enough'. Cause at 30k/yr I kinda thought 50k would be pretty sweet. And at 50k I thought 100k would be sweet. And at 100k I just bought more stuff. lol Something to keep in mind, where do you want to end up... and why.

----------


## Jangles1

> Sooo much flame here.
> 
> jangles, one thing to keep in mind here. There are a LOT of people on this board with incredible knowledge, and REALLY awesome for typing it out and sharing it. However, the long-term members here have a completely different goal than you, which is the very reason they are still here. You want to run a couple cycles and stabilize. Most of the folks here want to 'get as big as possible', and they frame their recommendations through that light. With that in mind all the advice you're getting here makes sense. 
> 
> - Spend more time building a base (even if it's a smaller improvement), because after 5,10,15 cycles you'll be further ahead.
> - Eat more and start bigger, learn to REALLY bulk. Again, makes sense because after multiple cycles you'll be further ahead than starting where you're at.
> 
> Among 99% of the population, your build is good, your discipline and routine are fantastic. But they aren't optimal if you're looking to pin for a decade and get as big as possible.
> 
> ...



I really enjoyed reading that man,,, You seem like a cool dude! Thanks for your input

----------


## Jangles1

Will be doing a full update at the start of week 7 (next Monday).

My blood kit arrived so I want to get my results before reporting back.

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Will be doing a full update at the start of week 7 (next Monday).
> 
> My blood kit arrived so I want to get my results before reporting back.


You doing bloods through medichecks?

----------


## Jangles1

Correct. Hormone Test Plus. £99


This entire cycle has been costly to say thfor least, but it’s important to do things the right way !

----------


## Back In Black

> No pics that stage. I was burgled and lost all my HDD pics when they stole my iMac and external.
> 
> In terms of 14lbs being water... No doubt, but thats how all Test E cycles start. Lean muscle will start to be formed in the next coming weeks. 
> 
> 
> Diet today 
> 
> 
> *Breakfast* 
> ...


I don’t get how that is that much protein. It means you are drinking a massive % from shakes to hit that amount by the look of it. You have only 3 protein sources here and only 2 meals have food based protein.

Also, if somehow you are ingesting that much protein, it’s overkill unless your photos aren’t telling the full story. 1.5g per lean lb of body weight is more than enough protein. (I didn’t search your stats but you’d need at least 170 lean lbs to warrant that much protein)

----------


## Jangles1

The steak I had that day was 16oz Sirlon (132g of Protein) and I consume 1.5 / 2 chicken breast when I have chicken... 

My shakes provide only 47.8g of protein from the powder and 28.8g from the milk. 

Total calories for 2 shakes (1 scoop of protein and 400ml of semi milk per shake) is 452 calories with 76.6 g of protein. 

That means 25% of my daily protein intake is from shakes. The rest is from meat, nuts and complex carbs..... The calories I consume through both shakes is a 9th of my total calorie intake a day. I do not see an issue with that?

Today I have had 


2 protein shakes 
Oats + Milk 

Chicken 
Sweet Potato 
Oliva Oil (1 tsp)
Honey (1tsp)
Broccoli and Asparagus 
Peas 

Chicken 
Beef Topside Strips
Refried Beans 
Corn Tortilla
Avacdo
Olive Oil (1 Tbsp)

Organic Low Fat Yogurt 
2 Cadbury Rudolph & Robin Cakes (240 calories treat meal)


4029 calories 

316 P
426 C
108 F


185lbs (my current weight) x 1.5 is 277. So Im only 13g over the recommend amount with that protein intake calculator.

----------


## Back In Black

That’s a huge amount of protein in one meal, I’d be splitting it.

You are 185lbs lean? How tall are you?

----------


## Jangles1

> That’s a huge amount of protein in one meal, I’d be splitting it.
> 
> You are 185lbs lean? How tall are you?



Im not too worried about having too much protein in 1 go.

Ive read countless studies that pick apart claims that protein consumption above 30g a serving is a waste of protein...

Ideally id not go for 16oz steaks every day, but had no issues with the with having a big ass steak.






Not 185 lean. I am 185lbs 14/155 body fat. 6ft

Do you feel I would benefit going for 250g of protein and filling out the rest with carbs?

----------


## Jangles1

So, end of week 6 today. Full report coming Monday, but wow. I felt RIDICULOUS at the gym today. Was smashing out reps easy while maintaining form. I even did an extra set on each exercise as I had so much energy and power. Constantly adding weight, easily., Holding back some to focus on form and to ensure I do not do any ligament or overall damage !

I was worried my test was under dosed as even though i've put on 15lbs since day 1, I have not seen huge muscle gains or mad strength gains, just filled out a little overall, mainly in my shoulders. I notice now after my workouts I look fucking mint. Guess thats the classic pumps you get on Test !

I really hope it really kicks in next week and I start to see the muscle packed on my chest and arms. I think thats where I would notice things most..

I am aware you dont start building lean tissue until the second half of your cycle. So hard to keep patience at this stage ha..

Anyway, full report Monday or Tuesday once I get my bloods !

----------


## Back In Black

> Im not too worried about having too much protein in 1 go.
> 
> Ive read countless studies that pick apart claims that protein consumption above 30g a serving is a waste of protein...
> 
> Ideally id not go for 16oz steaks every day, but had no issues with the with having a big ass steak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never mentioned 30g of protein per sitting but you are talking 80-90g from your steak alone plus whatever comes from your carbs. Will it sit around your system and you will absorb most of it? Maybe, but that amount would make me feel really uncomfortable. Also, it’s a lot of red meat and I’m not overly keen on a high intake of that.

I think 225_250g should be your max. I don’t take more than 250 unless I’m cutting then I MIGHT inc to 250g. No point feeding your fat is there?!

----------


## Jangles1

' No point feeding your fat is there?!
'

Carbs will only feed the fat the same way that Protein will though surely ?

----------


## Obs

> ' No point feeding your fat is there?!
> '
> 
> Carbs will only feed the fat the same way that Protein will though surely ?


I would wager that too much protein is 1000x deadlier than AAS. I would also wager that thousands of deaths from kidney failure have been blamed on AAS when in fact it was excessive protein causing the issue.

----------


## tarmyg

> I would wager that too much protein is 1000x deadlier than AAS. I would also wager that thousands of deaths from kidney failure have been blamed on AAS when in fact it was excessive protein causing the issue.


What is this based on? Experiments with people eating a crazy amount of protein have revealed no such issues.

----------


## Obs

> What is this based on? Experiments with people eating a crazy amount of protein have revealed no such issues.


Where did the protein come from?
Was it high in nitrates like the OP's steak?
Was the excess nitrates causing the kidneys to work overtime filtering the excess?

Believe me I have tead the same pub med articles you have on this issue and they are conducted in a fantasy manner. The amount of strain a bodybuilder puts on their kidneys is great enough without added strain from excessive nitrates. Rhabdomyolysis is something we push ourselves to the brink of frequently.

Let me post a list for you and you tell me it was AAS and training that killed these guys and caused kidney failure.

----------


## Obs

Mike Matarazzo: Frequent top 10 IFBB pro from 1992 to 2001. Four-time top 5 finisher at the Night of Champions. Died from a heart attack in 2014, age 47.
Dan Puckett: 1st place 2006 NPC Collegiate National Heavyweight. Died from heart failure in 2007, age 22.
Scott Klein: Four-time NPC Heavyweight competitor (1995 and 1997), two-time NPC super-heavyweight competitor (1998 and 2000). Died from kidney failure in 2003, age 30.
Robert Benavente: Competed in multiple NPC shows from 1994 (teen division) to 2003 (1st place in Southern States). Died from a heart attack in 2004, age 30.
Trevor Smith: Bodybuilding writer and coach. Never competed, but weighed over 400 pounds. Died from a heart attack in 2004, age 30.
Andreas Munzer: 13 top-five placings from 1986-96. Considered a "pioneer" in the use of diuretics for a super-peeled look. Died from multiple organ failure in 1996, age 32.
Mohammed Benaziza: Seven total Grand Prix wins in 1990 and 1992, 1st place at the 1990 Night of Champions (beating Dorian Yates), two top 5 Mr. Olympia showings (1989 and 1992). Died from heart failure hours after winning the Grand Prix Holland show in 1992, age 33.
Daniele Seccarecci: IFBB competitor from 2007 to 2013. 2010 Guinness World Record Holder for "heaviest competitive bodybuilder" at 297 pounds. Died from a heart attack in 2013, age 33.
Luke Wood: IFBB competitor from 2001 to 2008, often breaking into the top 10. Died from complications following a kidney transplant in 2011, age 35.
Chris Janusz: Amateur competitor, nutrition coach, and contest prep consultant. Died from undisclosed causes in 2009, age 37.
Art Atwood: Consistent top 10 finisher in IFBB shows from 2002 to 2004, including 1st at the 2002 Toronto Pro. Died from a heart attack in 2011, age 37.
Mat Duvall: Four-time top 3 finisher in NPC Super-heavyweight division (1999, 2001, 2002, 1st in 2003). Died from a heart attack in 2013, age 40.
Ed Van Amsterdam: European champion in the mid-1990s, frequent top 10 IFBB finisher in 2002 and 2003. Died from a heart attack in 2014, age 40.
Fannie Barrios: Two-time Jan Tana winner (2001, 2002). Three top 8 placings at Ms. Olympia (3rd place in 2002). Died from a stroke in 2005, age 41.
Charles Durr: Six top 5 NPC and IFBB finishes from 1988 to 1999. Competed in the 2004 IFBB North American Championships. Died from a heart attack in 2005, age 44.
Anthony D'Arezzo: Three-time top 10 NPC Heavyweight (1993, 1994, 1995). 1st at NPC New England in 1997. Died from a heart attack the night before a contest in 2006, age 44.
Greg Kovacs: Competed in several IFBB shows from 1997 to 2005. Known in the industry as one of the largest off-season bodybuilders, regularly weighing over 400 pounds. Died from heart failure in 2013, age 44.
Ron Teufel: 1978 IFBB Mr. USA. Runner-up to Samir Bannout at 1979 World Amateurs. Top 10 IFBB competitor in 1981 and 1982. Died from liver failure in 2002, age 45.
Hans Hopstaken: NPC Masters competitor in 1998 and 1999. IFBB competitor in 2000 and 2001, including two top 5 placings at the Masters Olympia. Died from heart failure in 2002, age 45.
Frank Hillebrand: Light-heavyweight champion (1987, 1989), several top 10 IFBB finishes from 1990 to 1993. Died from a heart attack in 2011, age 45.
Alex Azarian: NPC competitor from 2002 to 2009, including a total of five 1st place wins. Training, nutrition, and contest prep consultant. Died from undisclosed causes in 2015, age 45.
Ray Mentzer: IFBB competitor from 1979 to 1982 including 1st place 1978 Mr. USA, and several top 3 placings. Died from kidney failure in 2001, age 47.
Nasser El Sonbaty: Frequent top 8 IFBB competitor from 1990 to 1992, consistent top 4 finisher in shows from 1993 to 1998, including 2nd at the 1997 Mr. Olympia and 3rd at the 1995 and 1998 Olympias. Died from complications from heart and kidney failure in 2014, age 47.
Don Ross: Amateur competitor from 1965 to 1972, pro bodybuilder from 1973 to 1980 with 10 top 5 placings. Died from a heart attack in 1995, age 49.
Mike Mentzer: Consistent top 3 IFBB pro from 1975 to 1979, including 2nd in the 1976 and 1977 Mr. Universe, 1st place 1976 Mr. America, and 1st place 1979 heavyweight Mr. Olympia (lost the Overall to Frank Zane). First pro bodybuilder to be awarded a perfect score in a contest. Died from heart complications in 2001, age 49.
Don Youngblood: NPC and IFBB Masters competitor from 1994 to 2002. 2nd place at the 2001 Masters Olympia and winning 1st in the 2002 Masters Olympia. Died from a heart attack in 2005, age 49.
Stoil Stoilov: NPC and IFBB Masters competitor from 2005 to 2014. Died in 2014 one week after placing 2nd at a National show, age 49.
Terri Harris: Frequent top 5 finisher in NPC and IFBB shows from 2002 to 2012, including several 1st place wins in 2011 and 2012. Died from a heart attack two days after a contest in 2013, age 50.
Ed Kawak: 5-time Mr. Universe (1982-1985, 1993). IFBB competitor in 1996 and 1999. Died from a heart attack in 2006, age 51.
Vince Comerford: Amateur competitor from 1984 to 1986. 1st place Middleweight at 1987 NPC Nationals (lost the Overall to Shawn Ray). IFBB competitor in 1989 and 1990. Died from a heart attack in 2014, age 52.
Greg DeFerro: 1979 IFBB Mr. International, five top 4 placing in IFBB shows from 1981-1984, including 2nd to Lee Haney at the '83 Night of Champions. Died from heart disease in 2007, age 53.
The Dead Pool?
These bodybuilders are thankfully still alive at the time of this writing, but have suffered major health issues.

Tom Prince
Tom Prince: NPC competitor from 1995 to 1997, including 1st place at the 1997 Nationals. IFBB competitor from 1999 to 2002. Suffered kidney failure during contest prep in 2003, age 34. Retired in 2004, eventually received a kidney transplant in 2012.
Don Long: NPC Light-heavyweight (1992) and Heavyweight (1993 to 1995). Frequent top 10 IFBB pro from 1996 to 1999. Suffered kidney failure in 1999, age 34. Received a kidney transplant in 2002, which failed in 2003. Competed in several IFBB shows from 2006-2009. Received another kidney transplant in 2011.
Flex Wheeler: NPC competitor from 1989 to 1992. One of the best IFBB pros from 1993 to 2000 with a total of 17 first place wins. He made 2nd place at the Mr. Olympia three times ('93, '98, '99) and two-time top 4 at the Olympia ('96 and '00). Suffered kidney failure and "officially" retired in 2000, age 35. Competed twice more, 7th place at the '02 Mr. Olympia (supposedly drug-free) and 3rd at the '03 Ironman. Received a kidney transplant in 2003.
Orville Burke: NPC Heavyweight in 1996 and 1997 and Super-heavyweight in 1998. Frequent IFBB top 10 competitor from 1999 to 2002, including 1st at the 2001 Night of Champions and 1st at the '01 Toronto Pro. Two-time top 10 at the Mr. Olympia. Fell into a six-week coma after complications during surgery in 2002, age 39.
Mike Morris: NPC competitor from 1990 to 1997. IFBB pro from 2001 to 2005. Retired in 2005 after developing signs of kidney problems, age 35.

----------


## tarmyg

> Where did the protein come from?
> Was it high in nitrates like the OP's steak?
> Was the excess nitrates causing the kidneys to work overtime filtering the excess?
> 
> Believe me I have tead the same pub med articles you have on this issue and they are conducted in a fantasy manner. The amount of strain a bodybuilder puts on their kidneys is great enough without added strain from excessive nitrates. Rhabdomyolysis is something we push ourselves to the brink of frequently.
> 
> Let me post a list for you and you tell me it was AAS and training that killed these guys and caused kidney failure.


Still waiting for a single piece of factual information!

----------


## Obs

This idea that pubmed studies can be conducted conclusively without listing the source of the diet being examined is absurd and dumb. 

The articles so many believe today list nothing more than macros in regards to diet bearing no mind to different sources of protein which has the greatest effect on renal overload.

This is a highly controversial subject because of incomplete testing. Measuring RMF is not very accurate either being based off urine analysis and not actually looking at the kidneys nut rather what has passed into the urine. 

I assure you bodybuilders are dropping dead from overworking their organs but AAS will get the blame because of inconclusive study.

----------


## Obs

> What is this based on? Experiments with people eating a crazy amount of protein have revealed no such issues.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25091135/
Here you go you mouthy little bastard. From your beloved pubmed with many corresponding links!

----------


## Obs

> Still waiting for a single piece of factual information!


I will wait for you to shoot that down but if you would like I can post twenty half assed pubmed journals that say excess protein is just fine for the kidneys.

----------


## almostgone

We're all friends here, right?  :Smilie:

----------


## tarmyg

I'll stick to comment on the review article you posted.

I find it to be a good summary where they explore why we should be careful about generalizing recommendation on protein intake as it might have adverse and unintended effects when applied to an entire population, especially to people with chronic kidney disease. As mentioned in the article they focused mostly on meat and dairy protein sources and "In our opinion, high-protein diets based on meat and dairy products might have detrimental effects caused by a combination of hyperfiltration, hypertension, and increased urinary stone formation" but the same cannot be conclusively seen in diets high in protein but based on plants. 

Based on this review article each person would need to evaluate protein tolerance on an individual basis, just like AAS usage. As mentioned, when they talk high protein we talk 4g/kg body weight daily. Notice how they used body weight and not lean mass throughout this article which is, as any fitness person knows, incorrect as feeding fat is pointless.

Let me know your thoughts on how the experiment they used to showcase renal problems might be problematic.

----------


## Obs

Gonna go hit myself in the head with a hammer instead.

----------


## Jangles1

Lets not get past the point that it is ONLY 300g of protein. Its not like im doing 500 a day or anything.

I probably will drop it down to 275 for now.

I would like some advice from a nutrition expert on whether dropping down to 250g a day and upping my complex carbs would benefit me from a muscle building stand point....



Anyone?

----------


## tarmyg

> Lets not get past the point that it is ONLY 300g of protein. Its not like im doing 500 a day or anything.
> 
> I probably will drop it down to 275 for now.
> 
> I would like some advice from a nutrition expert on whether dropping down to 250g a day and upping my complex carbs would benefit me from a muscle building stand point....
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone?


BIB gave you solid advice above and by all accounts he knows what he is talking about.

----------


## Jangles1

He did indeed say stick below 250g......... I will make up my macros with a simple complex carb oats shake. 


*80g oats 
400 ml semi milk*


496 calories 

carbs - 67.2
fat - 13.2g
protein - 23.2g

----------


## Jangles1

*Start of Week 7*  


So bad news today. It turns out my Test was either bunk or massively under dosaged. My levels only doubled when they should be 6 - 10 x what they were pre cyclcle. I HAVE put on 17lbs since starting this cycle. I am guess thats down to the low dose test and Tbol. 


PRE


*Test - 482 mg/dl*
LH - 9.1
FSH - 8.94 
Estrogen - 16pg


MID

*Test - 1007 ng/dl*
LH - < 0.300
FSH - <0.300
Estrogen - 30pg


Can anyone tell me how my Estrogen is looking and if my AI dosage of 0.25mg (Arimidex ) is ok or too high?





*Pin*

Pins have been great. Less PIP and much cleaner in terms of technique

*Gym* 

Amazing. Feeling super strong the last few weeks. I am puttinf this down to the SIS Tbol that I am dosing at 70mg a week currently. I build it up from 40mg. 

*Diet* 

Spot on. 4000 calories a day. I decided to lower protein to 225 - 250g from 300g and I may lower my calorioes down to 3750 for the next week weeks while the Test P starts to enter mt system. 

*Weight* 

Starting - 170
Current - 187

*Sides*

Few spots and massive back cramps from the Tbol. 

*PIP*

Normal dead leg 

*Conclusion*


Weight is going up rapidly at 4000 calorioes. I am surprised it is going up so much with the shit test results. I guess Tbol and my test levels doubling + me being undersized when starting are factors. 

In regards to moving forward. I am thinking of starting my cycle all over again due to the massive under dosage of my first 6 weeks. I may shorten is to 8 weeks depnding on results and I am 100% starting it off with some prop to make up for lost time. 


Week 1	Test C Test P 

Week 1	500mg	200mg (eod)
Week 2	500mg	200mg (eod) 
Week 3	500mg	200mg (eod)
Week 4	500mg	200mg (eod)
Week 5	500mg	200mg (eod)
Week 6	500mg	200mg (eod)
Week 7	500mg	
Week 8	500mg	
Week 9	500mg	
Week 10	500mg	
Week 11 100mg (eod)
Week 12 100mg (eod
Week 13	PCT	
Week 14	PCT	
Week 15	PCT	
Week 16	PCT	
Week 17	PCT	
Week 18 PCT	


I will get a blood test in 2 weeks to check the Test P. 


Stay away from Pharmacom. I am ordering SIS Prop and Alpha Pharma Test C.

----------


## Jangles1

Today is a good day. 

Pharmacom have agreed to send me a full replacement on my under dosed and under filled Ampuls after I sent a multitude of evidence. I will use the products sent to me directly via Pharma on another cycle. 

Gym is going well. Pins are all good and even with my Test levels only doubling, my before and after pics are looking solid good. NO massive muscles bulging, but I am filing out well. My masseuse commented today that my lower back, triceps, delts and shoulders have gained considerable mass. Very nice to hear. 

Full report + updated cycle schedule coming on Monday. For now here is my 7 week transformation. 

17.7lbs gained with IMO hardly any fat. I cant wait to see gains I get on a correctly dosed product. 

I have Alpha Pharma Test C now which I will start using on Monday as a replacement for the current under dosed Test I have. 

I have been using Test Prop for this 7th week to get my test blood levels up to where they should be. I have been doing a high dose of 200mg EOD and will drop down to 100mg EOD on Monday once I start with the new (hopefully correctly dosed) Test C. 

I will most likely drop the prop at week 10 so I don't over do things. For me, it was a very simple way of getting my test levels to where they should be at this stage of my cycle. Test is Test and with my low Estorgen levels (30pg) and zero sides, it was a no brainer.


This protocol was discussed with and approved if you will by a very very reputable member on this board. I will be doing a full Esterogen and Test level check at start of week 9 just to ensure everything is ok. 



Anyway, update you all on Monday.

----------


## songdog

Sucks getting bad gear but at least it wasn't total junk keep pressing forward!

----------


## Jangles1

Week 8 

*Cycle Protocol moving forward after under dosage*


* Test C Test P* 

Week 7	500mg	200mg (eod) (Underdosed Test E was used In week 7 while I waited for my new Test C to arrive)
Week 8	500mg	100mg (eod) 
Week 9	500mg	100mg (eod)
Week 10	500mg	100mg (eod)
Week 11	500mg	
Week 12	500mg	
Week 13 100mg (eod)
Week 14 100mg (eod)
Week 15	PCT	
Week 16	PCT	
Week 17	PCT	
Week 18	PCT	
Week 19	PCT	
Week 20 PCT	


I front loaded the Prop to get my Test levels up to somewhere a little closer than they should have been 6 weeks in. As of this week I will be doing 100mg EOD for 3 weeks + weeks 13 and 14 before PCT. In total, I will have done 6 weeks of Prop (making up for the 6 week of underdosed Test E)



*Pin*

Pining last week was fine. It took 6 full weeks to be fully comfortable pining. The pins are totally clean and precise now. The whole process takes me 3 - 5 mins. Good timing to as I pinned EOD (Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun) due to adding the Prop. 

I wil be pinning week 8 as follows (Tue, Thur, Sat)

*Gym* 

100 % HUGE strength gains kicked in after 3 pins of Prop. This was the strength I was expecting. I was worried it was another placebo effect, but nope. I can now do a full set of Bicep curls 2.5kg heavier than I could last week AT THE END of my workout. I even had enough strength to do a drop set on the final set. The Prop well and truly kicked in as far as Strength goes. I am now noticing some shape developing in the mirror, even before bed, which is normally a bad time to look in the mirror due to been stuffed with 3750 - 4000 calories lol. All my t shirts seem to be tighter too. I thought I had maybe accidentally put them in the dryer machine (known to shrink clothes), but after 4 or shirts felt tighter, I knew this was not the case..

*Diet* 

100 % solid. I dropped down to 3750 calories to see how my weight would be today. I put on 2.3lbs on 3750 calories a day in week 7
*
Sample meal 
*


Cajun Chicken
Sweep Potato 
Avocado 
Broccoli 

109g carbs 
31g fat
85g p

*
1050 cals* 



*Weight* 

Starting - 170.4lbs
Current - 189.4

Change - 19lbs gain

*Sides*

No sides other than crazy night sweats. They started happening the same time I got the strength gain. Waking up a few times night drenched. 

*PIP*

Pip has been fine for weeks other than on Week 7's Friday Pin. This fucked my leg up the point I have been limping, and still am limping. I injected 2ml of Prop and 1ml of the underdosed Test E (Prop is drawn first so that E is injected first). 

Yesterdays prop (2ml) injection in the Ventroglue was fine and the first time ever that i've had ZERO feeling or PIP from an injection. 


*Conclusion*

Very happy with my protocol of adding the Test P. Clearly it has started working fast and will hopefully get my Test levels closer to where they should be in. I have my Test bloods scheduled in for tomorrow to see how things are looking. 

As of tomorrow my Test E shots will be Alpha Pharma Cyp (codes checked and verified). 


*Advice* 

Obviously this Cycle has had its ups and downs for me. I have learnt so much and I do wish I could go back and apply the things I have learn. Thats not how life goes though. 

If I COULD advise myself, and for newbies reading this thread, this is what I would say. 


- Do build a better base naturally. I don't regret doing this cycle, BUT having a better base would have been a better way to do this. We all know why due to the feedback in this thread. Even me getting to 185 would have been better and taken 3 months ish. I did rush into it and although I educated myself to a high level before hand, this is one area I did rush. 

- Do find a propper source and avoid websites. iSarms forum has a 'source' section. If I had gone there in the first place not only would I have had properly dosed gear, it would have cost me over FOUR times less. I worked it out the total cost for my entire cycle and it was genuinely 4 times cheaper using this confirmed, trusted source. That includes express International delivery and a fee that Western Union apply when sending money with them. 

Using a website has caused me to get underdosed, expensive compounds and has had to make me think on my feet in terms of my cycle protocol. If I had a good quality Test E to begin with, I wouldn't have to use Test P to get the most out of my cycle. 

In saying all that, is what it is and thats life. You live and learn. I have done nothing that will put my health at risk and have had my Estrogen levels in check and bloods to hand before deciding to alter the standard beginner cycle. I *have* approached this cycle from an educated standpoint and other than making some mistakes (as noted above) It has been successful in terms of the changes my body has gone through so far. 


Its the best feeling in the world to slowly start seeing the results I had read about and expected. 6 days a week in the gym and countless hours of diet dedication, not drinking and all the other stuff that has come with this is starting to become worth its while.

The final 7 weeks before PCT should be fun!


*Pics*

----------


## Obs

You are looking much better. How tall are you?

----------


## Jangles1

6ft bang on sir 


Feeling fucking AMAZING atm. Getting nice compliments from people and as Ive said, like most people here, I do work my arse off, so its nice to be back on track. With the correct dodges moving forward and my work ethic, the results 'should' shoot through the roof in the next 7 weeks. 

PS - I dropped down to 3750 cals so I can up to 4000 when I start PCT... I just wanted to make sure 3750 was enough to gain, which it was  :Smilie:

----------


## Obs

> 6ft bang on sir 
> 
> 
> Feeling fucking AMAZING atm. Getting nice compliments from people and as Ive said, like most people here, I do work my arse off, so its nice to be back on track. With the correct dodges moving forward and my work ethic, the results 'should' shoot through the roof in the next 7 weeks. 
> 
> PS - I dropped down to 3750 cals so I can up to 4000 when I start PCT... I just wanted to make sure 3750 was enough to gain, which it was


Good luck glad you are enjoying it. Results are showing!

----------


## Jangles1

Thanks man. Will keep going strong.

----------


## Jangles1

Updated Sides 


*Sides*


No night sweats but woke up with a slightly sore left nipple. This has happened before on cycle right on week 1 or 2, again only my left nipple. 

It went away a day later last time, so not too worried. Its not puffed up, itching or painful and no lumps. 

I'm guessing its due to the Test though.

Also getting spots regularly on my head forehead, every few weeks. 

I did up my Adex to 0.5 eod at the start of last week (when I added Test P) and I will get Estorgen check done at the start of Jan to ensure my levels are at a nice balance of around 30pg/ml

----------


## Jangles1

Thought I would start posting some of my meals to show newer guys what I think is a solid diet when training. 

Truth be told I’ve always ate like this, it’s the removal of protein bars, fresh orange juice every day, calorie dense sauces etc and being much stricter in my cheat meals that’s made me feel my diet is the absolute best it can while still throughly enjoying my food. 

The quitting of alcohol has really helped too. 

—

Cajun Chicken (spiced myself)
Avacado
Pinto beans 
Lemon rice with coriander 

-

P - 66.6g 
C - 113.3 
F - 40.3


Cals - 1070

I like to eat my 3 main meals a day + a protein shakes (with oats if I need extra calories)
-



-

Here is my Week 8 pic update too. Before and after

----------


## kronik420

wow!

----------


## Jangles1

> wow!


In what context is the wow lol ??

----------


## Jangles1

Had to post this pic as its mad. 

8 solid weeks of perfect diet, no alcohol, 6 days a week at the gym with not a single skipped session, 8 hours sleep, all round dedication and a *sick* gym pump = the below transformation 

And that’s with underdosed test for 6 weeks with my levels only doubling and been only 5% over what is considered a 'normal' range in England. 

Anyway, I will fully update everyone on week 8 update coming on Monday !




My routine if anyone is curious 


Day 1 - Legs (Quad/Ham/Calves):

Barbell Squats:
Romanian Deadlift:
Leg Press: 
Leg Extensions: 
Leg Curls: 3x11 
Seated Calf Raises:
Seated Calf Press: 


Day 2 - Push (Chest/Triceps/Shoulders):

Incline Barbell Bench Press: 
Incline Dumbbell Press:
Flat Dumbbell Bench Press: 
Barbell Military Press: 
Skull-crusher: 
Tricep Pulldown: 
Dumbbell Front Raise: 
Barbell Shrugs: 

Day 3 - Pull (Back/Biceps):

Deadlift:
Bent-over Barbell Rows: 
Lat Pulldowns: 
Seated Rows: 
Pull-ups: 
Barbell Bicep Curls: 
Hammer Curl:


Day 4 - Legs (Quad/Ham/Calves):


Day 5 - Push (Chest/Triceps/Shoulders):


Day 6 - Pull (Back/Biceps):

----------


## RoyalOil

It's amazing that you've put on 18 lbs with TBol and an(unintentional) low TRT dose of test. 

With the additional gains you'll make with full dosed gear... you're going to look like a different person!

----------


## GearHeaded

> It's amazing that you've put on 18 lbs with TBol and an(unintentional) low TRT dose of test. 
> 
> With the additional gains you'll make with full dosed gear... you're going to look like a different person!


I like the positivity . Jangles is working hard, doing his homework, and getting shit done

----------


## Jangles1

Thanks guys. Check out my bloods I got yesterday. So glad I added the prop (and front loaded it at 200mg EOD). Test levels now 17 times my normal rate. Now it begins !!! 

(keeping a VERY close eye on Estorgen and getting a test on the 1st of Jan to ensure levels are stable with the massive increase in Test)


*PRE CYCLE*

Test - 482 ng/dl

*
MID CYCLE (week 6)* 

Test - 1007 ng/dl

*
MID CYCLE 2 (week 8)* 

Test - 8300 ng/dl

----------


## Jangles1

> It's amazing that you've put on 18 lbs with TBol and an(unintentional) low TRT dose of test. 
> 
> With the additional gains you'll make with full dosed gear... you're going to look like a different person!



Its mad isn't it . I guess I am very Test responsive. And super happy to report that ATM, I don't seem Estorgen sensitive. But I have only been on a low Test dose, so we will see. Glad I ran the Tbol now, although I do think its hugely underdosed and research into SIS Labs orals backs up that though.

----------


## Capebuffalo

Bump for awesome update.

----------


## Jangles1

All is going well. The Christmas period has been hard to keep track with weight and posting here regularly. I am just getting back into the swing of been at work.. 

I managed to get 6 sessions in over the xmas period (3 a week) due to the opening hours of my gym and diet has been OK. If anything I have been under eating for the last 2 weeks. I am making up for that the next 2 weeks by upping my cals 250 a day.

With the holidays there were some cheat days, probably 5 or so in the 2 week period. I work my ass off the entire year and wanted to enjoy the holidays and all the shit that comes with it. 

I started back at the gym this Tuesday and wanted to get back to my eating / training routine before checking my weight and taking fresh pics on Monday coming. 

I have developed Bicep Tendonitis in my left arm now (as well as my right) so having to adapt some of the upper body exercises. Its making life hard in the gym, I wont lie. 

My body just does not want me to work out, clearly. My long and skinny frame just isn't made for regular weight lifting and this FRESH injury just goes to show. Such a shame. Its almost enough to want to quit, but of course I wont let it win and beat me. This is not due to AAS and me lifting big weights. I developed this issues in my left bicep by incline benching 22.5kg + the bar. 

Its simply down to my body and how injury prone it is. I do not ego lift and know how important it is to lift with form. This new injury is the same as the one in my right arm which I got in 2014. I still have this issue and it comes in to play a lot with overhead pressing, incline pressing etc, Cant believe ive got it in my left arm too lol. I have always had issues due to my long arms. My wingspan is 6.1feet lol. 


I cant do any pressing, chest or overhead with free weights, but the pressing machines do not seem to bring on the tendonitis pain. Its weird. Maybe because the machines have support it takes a lot of the weight of my arms. Funnily enough I feel it on my chest more as I'm not always worried about my tendonitis. I will stick with these for the time being. For overhead military press I had to lower the weight to reduce the pain. Sucks, but it is what is I guess. I will keep working through this and hopefully it will ease off. I have started a course of TB-500, but I am not hopeful it will cure such issues. 


Feeling good with the progress. I have filed out well and have no sides, even with the extra Test Prop. Lots of comments over the holidays on how good I look. So as for the cycle, its going great!

Anyway, pics and weight update next week (week 11)

----------


## The Deadlifting Dog

> Its simply down to my body and how injury prone it is. I do not ego lift and know how important it is to lift with form. This new injury is the same as the one in my right arm which I got in 2014. I still have this issue and it comes in to play a lot with overhead pressing, incline pressing etc, Cant believe ive got it in my left arm too lol. I have always had issues due to my long arms. My wingspan is 6.1feet lol.


Lifting is the easy part in that it is fun.
Most people neglect the recovery aspect of training... think stretching, foam rolling, hydration, sleep, nutitrion, massaging, etc...

----------


## Jangles1

> Lifting is the easy part in that it is fun.
> Most people neglect the recovery aspect of training... think stretching, foam rolling, hydration, sleep, nutitrion, massaging, etc...




Funnily enough I do most of those. I need to work on stretching more after my work out, but I get bi weekly massages, foam roll for warm up (generally legs and back) and warm up correctly before each set with a super low weighted set of 12. 

Sleep is 8 hours a night and diet is good. 

My lanky frame has always caused me issues in life and the big arm span I think contributes to tendonitis issues. Ive always been uncomfortable benching, so much so that I stopped doing flat bench press and swapped to dumbbell pressing. That helps loads, but I wanted to focus on the upper check (majorly lacking for me) and I know the upper bench is the best tool. I guess that ones going to be dropped now too as its caused this issue. 

One thing this does though is show me how truly determined I am. I am proud that after all of these injuries I am still in the gym 6 days a week, learning and working through issues. Its tough to carry on with so much wrong with my body. I am so jealous of people who do not suffer from injuries much. Its scary to think of the progress I could have made if my body was as strong as my mind,

Its brutal to have your body hold you back when you're so focused on working hard. It must be absolutely beyond soul destroying for talented athletes who have failed careers due to injury. That shits brutal.

----------


## The Deadlifting Dog

> Funnily enough I do most of those. I need to work on stretching more after my work out, but I get bi weekly massages, foam roll for warm up (generally legs and back)


your injury is in your arm.. not your legs and back...
foam roll your forearms and bis and tris....
use voodoo floss on your arms around your elbow joint not on your elbow joint....
use straps for all pulling exercises for a month to give your forearms a break...

----------


## Jangles1

> your injury is in your arm.. not your legs and back...
> foam roll your forearms and bis and tris....
> use voodoo floss on your arms around your elbow joint not on your elbow joint....
> use straps for all pulling exercises for a month to give your forearms a break...


I never though about support tbh, but I will look into this now man...

As for foam rolling arms, I will certainly give it a good go. 

Thanks for your help!

----------


## GearHeaded

injuries, and especially over use injuries are part of the game Jangles. most all of us that hit the gym hard have to work through them.

8 months ago I was in a wheel chair, had surgery, bed ridden for 4 months and lost 40 pounds of muscle.

I recovered as best I could and hit the gym as soon as I could. well 2 months ago I was inline machine pressing 450 lbs for 6-8 reps and felt pretty damn good (even though my back was still shot). Well now I tweaked or tore something in my rotator cuff and I can barely bench press 135 . thats sucks but thats life.
also not too long ago was barbell curling 135 for reps, well over use and overdoing curling led to tendonitis in my elbows and I'm now stuck curling only 45 pound dumb bells. I just got to keep grinding and work around what I can. . I still can't squat because of all the rods and screws in my back still need more time to set in , but I'll destroy the leg extension machine (again I do what I can).

just gotta keep grinding and work around injuries, because injuries are always going to be there to one degree or another .

----------


## Jangles1

> injuries, and especially over use injuries are part of the game Jangles. most all of us that hit the gym hard have to work through them.
> 
> 8 months ago I was in a wheel chair, had surgery, bed ridden for 4 months and lost 40 pounds of muscle.
> 
> I recovered as best I could and hit the gym as soon as I could. well 2 months ago I was inline machine pressing 450 lbs for 6-8 reps and felt pretty damn good (even though my back was still shot). Well now I tweaked or tore something in my rotator cuff and I can barely bench press 135 . thats sucks but thats life.
> also not too long ago was barbell curling 135 for reps, well over use and overdoing curling led to tendonitis in my elbows and I'm now stuck curling only 45 pound dumb bells. I just got to keep grinding and work around what I can. . I still can't squat because of all the rods and screws in my back still need more time to set in , but I'll destroy the leg extension machine (again I do what I can).
> 
> just gotta keep grinding and work around injuries, because injuries are always going to be there to one degree or another .



100 % mate. I felt like giving up today when I couldn't bench or dumbbell press. Instead I got my thoughts together and went and tried the pressing machines (which I avoid like the plague) and managed to get in 3 sets on that. I guess finding work arounds is something I have to get used too. Although struggling to find an upper pec work around.

Its just so frustrating man. 

Kudos to hitting the gym after your wheelchair scenario btw. Thats motivation !!!

There is a girl in the gym who is in a wheelchair and I often see her doing weighted pull ups with chains. That shit is inspiring and makes me feel very fortunate.

----------


## Jangles1

Coming up to the end of week 10. Fuck today was 1) hard and 2) BRUTAL on my forearms. The pump was out of this world. Felt like my arms were made out of steel or something. Very weird sensation. I had to leave pull ups as I felt that something would snap in my forearms as they were so tight. 

Below are some pics 


This is the start of my journey. I am 179lbs here and I tried to cut down to as low as I felt I could simply to shed as much BF as I could. Obviously I am skinny as fuck here...




Here is today PRE workout pump. Its important to say 'pre' workout as this is I guess what I look like naturally now with no 1 hour workout to help my body look much better




And here is the side by side. I do not know my weight yet as I am waiting until Monday to weigh (so I have had a full week back from the holidays, eating and training properly). 





Overall, I am happy with the progress. I am not moaning, but I did think I would be more blown up at this point. By blown up I mean more bulging muscles (bis, tris, traps). Instead I have just filled out somewhat. By no means am I disappointed. Its been quite a nice steady progression and it IS what I wanted, not to blow up too much too fast. 

Like everyone has said, I could have most likely achieved something similar without AAS over 6 or so months (a rough guess). I would love to have seen the transformation without AAS at this point, but hey, thats impossible and I most certainly do not regret doing it.

Maybe I am been too harsh on myself. Looking closely at these pics I do look to have gained a huge amount of size, just not really bulging biceps or triceps. I only get that post work out after with a pump. 

Can anyone give me a *NONE biast* opinion on how long this transformation would have taken if I did the exact same thing but removed the Test ?


I still have 5 shots of Test Cyp (250mg) and 10+ test prop shots left before my PCT. Hopefully the legit dosed Test Cup starts to kick in at the start of week 11. I was thinking of extending my cycle to 14 weeks to give the Test Cyp time to kick in. I want to make the most of this and with me having almost no negative sides, I think it would be beneficial to me. 

Currently I am on 100mg eod of Test P and 250mg twice a week Test C. (the test P is in there to make up for the TRT dose of test I was on for the first 6 weeks). Essentially I am on 850mg of Test E a week and have no sides. Even acne has stopped. Very weird. 

Any opinions on the cycle and if extending to 14 weeks, good or bad are welcome as long as they're constructive.

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Coming up to the end of week 10. Fuck today was 1) hard and 2) BRUTAL on my forearms. The pump was out of this world. Felt like my arms were made out of steel or something. Very weird sensation. I had to leave pull ups as I felt that something would snap in my forearms as they were so tight. 
> 
> Below are some pics 
> 
> 
> This is the start of my journey. I am 179lbs here and I tried to cut down to as low as I felt I could simply to shed as much BF as I could. Obviously I am skinny as fuck here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I went from 174 skinny to 200ish in 16 or so weeks if i recall right. Obviously put on fat but added mass naturally with low t. 

Definetly think you jumped the gun a wee tad

----------


## GearHeaded

> Can anyone give me a NONE biast opinion on how long this transformation would have taken if I did the exact same thing but removed the Test ?


this is really hard to tell. it depends on natty test levels as well. if you naturally have low T then it is much more difficult to put on size. If your natty T levels were 700+ range, then I think you could of put on 20 pounds in about 6-8 moths naturally. If your natty T levels were less then 300, then it may take a year or two just to gain 10.

When I was diagnosed with Low T and got that fixed and got my levels to 900-1200 (instead of the 160s it was), I put on about 30 pounds in 6 months. thats how important T levels are to growth. and that was all keepable muscle gains, as I have since that time added another 30-40+ pounds to that original 30 (all while still maintaining abs).. of course that additional 30-40 came through years and years of hard training, nutrition, dozens of steroid cycles, HGH, insulin etc.. but my point is having optimal Test levels can easily sustain you at a 30 pound or so heavier body weight in as little as 6 months .

get blood work done 8 weeks after PCT and make sure you've recovered good natty Test levels if you want to continue to grow

----------


## Jangles1

> I went from 174 skinny to 200ish in 16 or so weeks if i recall right. Obviously put on fat but added mass naturally with low t. 
> 
> Definetly think you jumped the gun a wee tad



100% mate. Not even in question. 

At least the Test will have helped with fat  :Smilie:

----------


## Jangles1

> this is really hard to tell. it depends on natty test levels as well. if you naturally have low T then it is much more difficult to put on size. If your natty T levels were 700+ range, then I think you could of put on 20 pounds in about 6-8 moths naturally. If your natty T levels were less then 300, then it may take a year or two just to gain 10.
> 
> When I was diagnosed with Low T and got that fixed and got my levels to 900-1200 (instead of the 160s it was), I put on about 30 pounds in 6 months. thats how important T levels are to growth. and that was all keepable muscle gains, as I have since that time added another 30-40+ pounds to that original 30 (all while still maintaining abs).. of course that additional 30-40 came through years and years of hard training, nutrition, dozens of steroid cycles, HGH, insulin etc.. but my point is having optimal Test levels can easily sustain you at a 30 pound or so heavier body weight in as little as 6 months .
> 
> get blood work done 8 weeks after PCT and make sure you've recovered good natty Test levels if you want to continue to grow


Natty test was 400ish. Quite low.

I will 100 % be checking post PCT bloods as per the protocol in the stickies!

----------


## 1moreset024

You could have done this Natty in the same time frame, maybe extra 4 weeks, do about 18 weeks.

Id have liked to see you at 200 lbs. Cuzz I'm positive that was only extra fat getting you that weight.

Just cuzz you were a fat 200, doesn't m mean you were a 200pound muscle man, send that won't print your bodies muscle memory and such.

But I digress,

----------


## The Deadlifting Dog

> Can anyone give me a *NONE biast* opinion on how long this transformation would have taken if I did the exact same thing but removed the Test ?


Impossible to answer for now.
You will not know how much you have gained from this cycle until at least 8 weeks after you end PCT.
Much of your gains are water weight from higher androgen and estrogen levels.
You will most likely lose half of your gains once you go back to normal hormone levels.

----------


## Jangles1

> You could have done this Natty in the same time frame, maybe extra 4 weeks, do about 18 weeks.
> 
> *Id have liked to see you at 200 lbs. Cuzz I'm positive that was only extra fat getting you that weight.*
> 
> Just cuzz you were a fat 200, doesn't m mean you were a 200pound muscle man, send that won't print your bodies muscle memory and such.
> 
> But I digress,


Agreed man. Def a lot of fat at 200lbs Prob 20 - 22% body fat.

I must be pushing close to 200lbs now. I started at 179 and was 189 2 weeks ago. Xmas holidays has maybe messed things up hence me not weighing myself till Monday coming. That way ive had 1 week of 4000 cals a day and 6 gym sessions. 

18 weeks, hmmmm I dont personally think I could gave bulked up as much as have with pretty much no fat gain without AAS. we wont ever know and i'm not saving I am right, but the AAS most have help a fair chunk here.

----------


## Jangles1

> Impossible to answer for now.
> You will not know how much you have gained from this cycle until at least 8 weeks after you end PCT.
> Much of your gains are water weight from higher androgen and estrogen levels.
> You will most likely lose half of your gains once you go back to normal hormone levels.


Half seems a little high man. I don't see why I would loose half my gains with my diet and training regime. Im not saying I am right, but half seems excessive. 

I shall see you in 20ish weeks for an update on the true gains from this cycle, 8 weeks after my 6 week PCT.

BTW, If you're correct in your assumption, If I get to 30lbs gained from this cycle, which I am fully confident I will, then half is 15lbs, which aint bad fucking going. Science says you can only really gain 0,5lbs of muscle a week naturally, which is 6lbs in 12 weeks. So AAS Would have given me more than double the gains. And thats IF I loose half my gains!

----------


## Jangles1

Food update 

Todays diet 


*Breakfast* 

Milk
Oats
Honey 

Milk 
Cassien Why Protein 

1191 cals 

*Lunch*

Chicken 
Olive Oil 
Lemon (fresh)
Potatoes 

1147 cals

*Dinner* 

Rump Steak
Olive Oil 
Cheery Tomatos 
Avocado 
Potatoes 

1004 cals

*Snacks* 

Organic Yogurt 
Chocolate Milk
Almonds 

327 cals 


-----


4009 cals 
268 P
381 C
149 F

----------


## 1moreset024

Dude, your 20%-22% now.

If you were 200 lbs I would safely assume based on starting pics, and your most recent cycle pics, that at 200lbs you were 30-33% or so

As far as keeping what you gained, if you added 20, expect to keep 5-6 lbs of muscle.

But your not going to keep jack without a extreme caloric surplus during PCT and you'll have to continue training in a very unstable hormone status.

This is why we say get a good base, and I'm not parroting the cookie cutter "reach your Natty limit" stuff, but just a basic general base a little definition and arms at least fatter than a penis.

You started at Auschwitz refugee status. And with this cycle you moved to "what a natural average Joe" could do with a month of clean high protein eating and 40 minutes gym sessions 3x a week

----------


## The Deadlifting Dog

> Half seems a little high man. I don't see why I would loose half my gains with my diet and training regime. Im not saying I am right, but half seems excessive. 
> 
> I shall see you in 20ish weeks for an update on the true gains from this cycle, 8 weeks after my 6 week PCT.
> 
> BTW, If you're correct in your assumption, If I get to 30lbs gained from this cycle, which I am fully confident I will, then half is 15lbs, which aint bad fucking going. Science says you can only really gain 0,5lbs of muscle a week naturally, which is 6lbs in 12 weeks. So AAS Would have given me more than double the gains. And thats IF I loose half my gains!


you really are bone headed...

if you keep 15lbs it will not be 15lbs of muscle.
You will have gained some fat along the way...
AND...
you will easily gain 2-3 lbs of muscle that you lost from being on a diet before you started....
so....
15lb gain
minus 2lbs to muscle gained from going off diet....
minus 3lbs off from fat gained...
leaves you with about 10lbs of muscle gained...
which you could've probably gained half of that natty

so yes the steroids did help.
of course the steroids helped..
but maybe it helped you put on 5 extra pounds of muscle.

----------


## Jangles1

> Dude, your 20%-22% now.
> 
> If you were 200 lbs I would safely assume based on starting pics, and your most recent cycle pics, that at 200lbs you were 30-33% or so
> 
> As far as keeping what you gained, if you added 20, expect to keep 5-6 lbs of muscle.
> 
> But your not going to keep jack without a extreme caloric surplus during PCT and you'll have to continue training in a very unstable hormone status.
> 
> This is why we say get a good base, and I'm not parroting the cookie cutter "reach your Natty limit" stuff, but just a basic general base a little definition and arms at least fatter than a penis.
> ...



No way am I 20+ % body fat. I was 14% when I started and ive hardly put on any fat. Christmas period has seen maybe a little added, but hoping that will level out.

*
'But your not going to keep jack without a extreme caloric surplus during PCT and you'll have to continue training in a very unstable hormone status.'*


Everyone has to have a surplus in PCT and has to train with unbalanced hormones, so that whole assumption is totally flawed.

I will go up to 4250 - 4500 in PCT no probs, if I need to, so I am confident on keeping a good amount of gains. Unsure why you think I wouldn't keep them just because I started the cycle light. Seems a short sited opinion imo and I'm clearly no expert, but im almost certain you're totally wrong. I will train and eat just as hard as I do now and alloy my body to acclimatise to my new weight. 

Just because I didn't have the 'base' doesn't mean I wont keep a decent amount of gains IF I approach PCT correctly, which I will. Time will tell anyway. Sure, having a better base would have been better, but even so, your body is still going to fight to get down to the weight you was before you cycled, so again, I just dont see why starting this cycle light makes as much as a difference as some people are making out., I am not doubting I would have beeb better of starting at 185/200lbs, but to say I will not keep *any* gains because of this is shortsighted.

----------


## Jangles1

> you really are bone headed...
> 
> if you keep 15lbs it will not be 15lbs of muscle.
> You will have gained some fat along the way...
> AND...
> you will easily gain 2-3 lbs of muscle that you lost from being on a diet before you started....
> so....
> 15lb gain
> minus 2lbs to muscle gained from going off diet....
> ...



Personal insults just show your true character man  :Asskiss: 

5lbs is 10 weeks in the gym. So il take that all day long. Wheter the 15lbs is not all muscle or not, everyone goes by *HOW MUCH YOU KEPT.* 

NO one is going and dividing what they kept and telling exact muscle and fat gains. 

'How'd your cycle go? Put on 30, kept 25' .... Thats how it goes... You seem to find issue with everything I say or do. Cracks me up. 


Proving everyone wrong from day 1 and will continue to do so!

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Personal insults just show your true character man 
> 
> 5lbs is 10 weeks in the gym. So il take that all day long. Wheter the 15lbs is not all muscle or not, everyone goes by HOW MUCH YOU KEPT. NO one is going and dividing what they kept and telling exact muscle and fat gains. Put on 30, kept 25..... Thats how it goes... You seem to find issue with everything I say or do. Cracks me up. 
> 
> 
> Proving everyone wrong from day 1 and will continue to do so!


Whats the point in keeping 20lbs if its all fat? Of course all that matters is muscle kept...

----------


## The Deadlifting Dog

> Personal insults just show your true character man 
> 
> 5lbs is 10 weeks in the gym. So il take that all day long. Wheter the 15lbs is not all muscle or not, everyone goes by *HOW MUCH YOU KEPT.* 
> 
> NO one is going and dividing what they kept and telling exact muscle and fat gains. 
> 
> 'How'd your cycle go? Put on 30, kept 25' .... Thats how it goes... You seem to find issue with everything I say or do. Cracks me up. 
> 
> 
> Proving everyone wrong from day 1 and will continue to do so!


listen....
I am trying to help you learn.

You disagree with with most everything that anyone says.
Whatever.
Keep damaging your HPTA doing what you should've done naturally.

----------


## Jangles1

> listen....
> I am trying to help you learn.
> 
> You disagree with with most everything that anyone says.
> Whatever.
> Keep damaging your HPTA doing what you should've done naturally.


*You disagree with with most everything that anyone says.*

I appreciate your learning and I disagree with silly comments such as ' you def wont keep ANY gains cause you did your cycle at 170 instead of 185'

Moronic. (I know that wasnt you btw)

I will stick up for what I believe. I have taken plenty of feedback on board throughout this process but I wont sit here and agree with stupid assumptions.

'Keep damaging your HPTA doing what you should've done naturally'

Anyone doing AAS damages their HPTA. If I got to 185/200 then jumped on, id damage it. Again, another argument flawed.

----------


## Jangles1

> Whats the point in keeping 20lbs if its all fat? Of course all that matters is muscle kept...


In principle I absolutely agree. But when you see a cycle report you see '20 gained, 12 kept' ect.. No one goes in and states exactly how much muscle and or fat was gained. Ideally you want it all to be muscle, clearly.

----------


## GearHeaded

its highly unlikely Jangles would put on 20 pounds of fat from this one cycle with clean eating in a surplus and consistent training.. I probably couldn't put on 20 pounds of fat eating clean even if I was getting paid to put on fat . water and glycogen yes, but 20 pounds of solid adipose tissue is harder to put on then you think especially with someone with an ectomorphic frame

----------


## Jangles1

> its highly unlikely Jangles would put on 20 pounds of fat from this one cycle with clean eating in a surplus and consistent training.. I probably couldn't put on 20 pounds of fat eating clean even if I was getting paid to put on fat . water and glycogen yes, but 20 pounds of solid adipose tissue is harder to put on then you think especially with someone with an ectomorphic frame



Honestly, people just love to hate on this thread due to me breaking the cardinal sin of not been at a certain weight before starting. In hindsight I 100% would have gotten to 185 before starting, but I didn't and it is what it is. Some people make out like I will put on no muscle and just fat and water because I didn't get my ;base; ha

Every few weeks this shit argument gets brought up again.

- yes I started my cycle 15lbs to early 
- yes I could have got to where I have now naturally 


Im not here to argue about the same shit over and over again. This is a detailed cycle report for others to learn from (for christ sake make sure you get to 185lbs before cycling) and for me to keep track and ask questions. Im so bored of silly comments such as 

'you wont keep any gains cause you dint get to 185lbs before cycling'

To anyone with this opinion.... STOP with these shit, uneducated comments. Its driving me mad.


Anyway thats me done for the night, im off to have a 78,000 calorie protein shake to make sure I keep 0.5lbs of my gains after this cycle  :Icon Pissedoff:

----------


## GearHeaded

Jangles , Lance Armstrong has taken a shit ton more steroids then you have , and he only weighed 135 pounds . don't stress it. its a personal choice you make for yourself

----------


## Jangles1

Isn't he clean ;0 haha


Anyway yeah, this shit doesn't phase me. I love proving people wrong and if anything the doubts make me more determined. This thread has been challenging but I don't regret making it as it truly has spurred me on and taught me a lot. 

As I have always said, if in 6 months time i've lost all my gains, il come back here, post a pic, tell the truth, say 'you guys were right' and will accept every single negative comment that comes my way. 

But that wont happen as im gonna carry on working my fucking arse off through PCT, after PCT and leading up to cycle number 2. 

I cant wait to get there. Il prob be 195lb ish and people will say I 'dont have a base' lmao

----------


## songdog

> Personal insults just show your true character man 
> 
> 5lbs is 10 weeks in the gym. So il take that all day long. Wheter the 15lbs is not all muscle or not, everyone goes by *HOW MUCH YOU KEPT.* 
> 
> NO one is going and dividing what they kept and telling exact muscle and fat gains. 
> 
> 'How'd your cycle go? Put on 30, kept 25' .... Thats how it goes... You seem to find issue with everything I say or do. Cracks me up. 
> 
> 
> Proving everyone wrong from day 1 and will continue to do so!


True character come on Jangles the guys here been pretty polite if you ask me it's more than being light in your case.You show no signs of ever training in your life and you wonder why guys are on you.Yes we heard your injury excuse but you would still have something and you don't.Now this isn't a slam on you for being skinny it's about you not telling the truth.And you are not the 1st guy too try this and I never seen it end well.Because if a guy wants something bad enough he will work for it and the guys here don't see it.You are dealing with guys all around the world who see guys like you in the gym thinking aas is their big ticket too getting big but as you found out it isn't it's HARD FUCKING WORK WITH NO SHORT CUTS! You the least you could do is show these guys some respect because they earned it the hard way through diet and hard training.

----------


## Jangles1

> True character come on Jangles the guys here been pretty polite if you ask me it's more than being light in your case.You show no signs of ever training in your life and you wonder why guys are on you.Yes we heard your injury excuse but you would still have something and you don't.Now this isn't a slam on you for being skinny it's about you not telling the truth.And you are not the 1st guy too try this and I never seen it end well.Because if a guy wants something bad enough he will work for it and the guys here don't see it.You are dealing with guys all around the world who see guys like you in the gym thinking aas is their big ticket too getting big but as you found out it isn't it's HARD FUCKING WORK WITH NO SHORT CUTS! You the least you could do is show these guys some respect because they earned it the hard way through diet and hard training.


No training is just simply not true, at all. I have been training on and off (due to injury) since 2014. I have a great deal of knowledge when it comes to nutrition and training. I have just not been able to implement my knowledge to the fullest due to shit we have been over time and time again, 

A lot of peoples feedback and opinions are severely altered due to the fact I started light on my cycle and admittedly didn't build the base I should have. People saying I wont keep any gains at all and all that shit just show me that their opinions are clearly affected by my starting point... I dont know why people are so butt hurt about this. 

Ive done EVERYTHING right other than starting my cycle 3 - 6 months too early. Big deal. 


I admit I fucked up starting light, but even after all the hate and negativity, im still here with this log. It would be cool for people to just say 'ok, yeah he knows he messed up, maybe il just get behind him and see what happens now' 

I dont get the all the. negativity, still. It baffles me. Sure, have a negative yet constructive opinion, but dont start spouting silly uneducated shit like (for the 10th time in a few posts) 'you wont keep any gains from this cycle because you started at 170 and not 185)'

About to smash 150g of oats. With milk its a solid 800 cal meal  :7up:

----------


## hollowedzeus

what people are saying and you are continually missing is the fact that you don't have a clue how to eat like a 185lb man despite your claims that you used to be massive but got injured.

i hope you recover your hpta and continue to get bigger healthily.

i do think however, as long as you are happy it shouldnt matter what we think. its your life, knock yourself out with whatever you want.

its clear that you wanted a quick fix and you got it (or so you keep telling us). its understandable why guys jump on your ass.

----------


## Jangles1

> what people are saying and you are continually missing is the fact that you don't have a clue how to eat like a 185lb man despite your claims that you used to be massive but got injured.
> 
> i hope you recover your hpta and continue to get bigger healthily.
> 
> i do think however, as long as you are happy it shouldnt matter what we think. its your life, knock yourself out with whatever you want.
> 
> its clear that you wanted a quick fix and you got it (or so you keep telling us). its understandable why guys jump on your ass.



*'what people are saying and you are continually missing is the fact that you don't have a clue how to eat like a 185lb man despite your claims that you used to be massive but got injured.
'*


lol, Where have you got this from haha. For the 100th time, diet is not an issue. My diet is absolutely on point. I am eating 4000 calories a day and counting every single calorie with 'my fitness pal' 


And claiming I used to be massive ??? LOL, you're literally making stuff up man. No disrespect, you seem like a nice guy that doesn't flame, just puts across his negative, yet constructive opinion (which is fine), but this is the shit I am talking about. You have literally made that last sentence up. Because you can go and check all 6 pages of this thread and see I never ever claimed that I used to be massive. I said 'I got to 200lbs' 


Check out my diet inserts in this log in the last 3 - 4 weeks man. I understand that my pre AAS appearance makes it look like I have not been eating right, but nutrition is not an issue. If It was I would have put on 20 + lbs in this cycle, AAS or not. I also wouldn't have gotten down to 170lbs by loosing 0.5lbs a week. That kind of dieting takes a lot of time and effort. Anyone can loose 2lbs a week by smashing an insane amount of cardio and eating 500 / 750 cals less than their maintenance, yet I tuned my diet in and lost 0.5lbs a week for the final 6 weeks to try and preserve what little muscle mass I had left. I know how to diet be it cut or bulk. 

*'its clear that you wanted a quick fix and you got it (or so you keep telling us). its understandable why guys jump on your ass.'*

To some extent this is true. But it honestly is only true due to constant injury. Im looking the best I ever have and being on AAS has given me that extra motivation to fight through nagging injures that have ultimately led me to stopping once getting worse in the past...

People have a right to their own opinion but being lazy is not in my vocabulary and I jumped on AAS as I wanted a helping hand to achieve something more than I have gotten in the past (even though I was just as dedicated) due to injury. 

I dont care about people hating on me for this. What I care about is people just making dam right lies up and people saying 'oh yeah, your cycle is going to be a fail and you wont get anything from it in the end because you jumped on too early'

This attitude and opinion is pathetic. So what if I jumped on too early. I have my reasons and dont give 1 flying fuck what anyone on this board thinks. I am however happy to explain myself to people though as its important for this log and anyone in the future who reads it.

Im bored of all this shit anyway. Off to the gym. Legs day 2 today. 

Full update, week 11 coming on Monday. Looking forward to seeing my weight !!

----------


## songdog

> No training is just simply not true, at all. I have been training on and off (due to injury) since 2014. I have a great deal of knowledge when it comes to nutrition and training. I have just not been able to implement my knowledge to the fullest due to shit we have been over time and time again, 
> 
> A lot of peoples feedback and opinions are severely altered due to the fact I started light on my cycle and admittedly didn't build the base I should have. People saying I wont keep any gains at all and all that shit just show me that their opinions are clearly affected by my starting point... I dont know why people are so butt hurt about this. 
> 
> Ive done EVERYTHING right other than starting my cycle 3 - 6 months too early. Big deal. 
> 
> 
> I admit I fucked up starting light, but even after all the hate and negativity, im still here with this log. It would be cool for people to just say 'ok, yeah he knows he messed up, maybe il just get behind him and see what happens now' 
> 
> ...


No Jangles not 3 to 6 months more like 3 to 6 years you don't build a solid foundation in a couple months this is just part of wat people been trying too tell you.

----------


## ghettoboyd

> Isn't he clean ;0 haha
> 
> 
> Anyway yeah, this shit doesn't phase me. I love proving people wrong and if anything the doubts make me more determined. This thread has been challenging but I don't regret making it as it truly has spurred me on and taught me a lot. 
> 
> As I have always said, if in 6 months time i've lost all my gains, il come back here, post a pic, tell the truth, say 'you guys were right' and will accept every single negative comment that comes my way. 
> 
> But that wont happen as im gonna carry on working my fucking arse off through PCT, after PCT and leading up to cycle number 2. 
> 
> I cant wait to get there. Il prob be 195lb ish and people will say I 'dont have a base' lmao


here's some perspective, I weigh 195lbs and I look like a bodybuilder you look like you just started training at whatever you weigh..here is the difference, I waited till i had a good base with 7 years of solid natty training before I started aas and that enabled me to put on quality muscle that has matured over time with lots of vascularity...that's the difference in people who did it right the first time...im glad you thrilled with you new found mass but I would ease up on the cockiness and maybe more people would be more receptive to you...

----------


## TRTdrew

I just found this thread. . . and it is super entertaining and educational. 

Props to you Jangles for putting yourself out there and exposing yourself to criticism. Good on you. Please keep posting. I want to see how this turns out!

----------


## Jangles1

> here's some perspective, I weigh 195lbs and I look like a bodybuilder you look like you just started training at whatever you weigh..here is the difference, I waited till i had a good base with 7 years of solid natty training before I started aas and that enabled me to put on quality muscle that has matured over time with lots of vascularity...that's the difference in people who did it right the first time...im glad you thrilled with you new found mass but I would ease up on the cockiness and maybe more people would be more receptive to you...



Nothing but respect for your and doing it that way mate. If it was not for my body and past mistakes in training when starting out, which led to injury, I would be well on my way to an amazing physical appearance and probably wouldn’t have ever considered AAS. Injury is the only reason I looked into AAS because I’m so injury prone that I need alll the help I can get. Is that the right thing to do?? Well I don’t know, but I’m glad I did it now with the results I’m having. 

People have this opinion that I am lazy and just wanted to get into AAS with no real training, but like I’ve said many many many times, that’s just not the case. I’ve been training for 5 years but injury has held me back time and time again. I never gave up though and this time I wanted to maximise results with AAS. The psychology benefits alone have made this cycle massively worth it. 

No one believes me, but I know inside that I have been 100 % honest in everything I say. 

This is not lazyness or lack of patience. This is a last resort to make significant changes due to constant injury holding back my progress. Some people will say me resorting to this is wrong. To those people, i would say “you’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t regret this journey”

PS - I may jump the gun now and again but it’s onlt because I’m passionate and wear my heart on my sleeve. No cockiness here.

----------


## Jangles1

> No Jangles not 3 to 6 months more like 3 to 6 years you don't build a solid foundation in a couple months this is just part of wat people been trying too tell you.



I take that on board, agree and admit I jumped in too early, but as you know now, I have my own reasons for this and I need not explain myself any longer to anyone. 

If anyone has an issue, so be it. Have a pop at me. I’m use to it now  :7up:

----------


## Jangles1

> I just found this thread. . . and it is super entertaining and educational. 
> 
> Props to you Jangles for putting yourself out there and exposing yourself to criticism. Good on you. Please keep posting. I want to see how this turns out!



From the “no base” to the “you lied about your age” to the “under dosed test” and the constant repeating disputes about my diet and training, yep, it’s been one hell of a ride. 

Il prob do a log for cycle number 2 16 weeks after my PCT ends. Hopefully by then my base will be cool and I won’t get as much stick. I’m sure it will still have it’s fair share of drama though, so stick around !!

----------


## David LoPan

> From the “no base” to the “you lied about your age” to the “under dosed test” and the constant repeating disputes about my diet and training, yep, it’s been one hell of a ride. 
> 
> Il prob do a log for cycle number 2 16 weeks after my PCT ends. Hopefully by then my base will be cool and I won’t get as much stick. I’m sure it will still have it’s fair share of drama though, so stick around !!


I knew you were going to be coming to the dark side and doing cycle after cycle. Guess you will be drinking a lot of just tonic water with your mates and the pub and picking up the ladies. Bar tab will be low and picking up the women will get easier.

----------


## MACKATTACK

I can't believe people are supporting for him to take a cycle.......you are super injury prone if you have no muscle mass and what seems to be limited lifting experience and then jump on a cycle and lift above and beyond your true strength point. ALA Tendonitis, your tendons won't catch up to the muscle strength nearly as fast.....I wish you the best, but I think this is bad overall, you can tell that you don't even know how to functionally eat which is a bare necessity.....

This is just bad, I don't care if you are "working hard" in your mind or not.......I would try naturally for at least a year.

I apologize for my extreme honest and blunt comment, but I wouldn't want someone to ruin themselves. There are plenty of guys out there that have done a cycle, got injured and never really made it back to the gym.......consistency is key at the end of the day.

----------


## Jangles1

> I can't believe people are supporting for him to take a cycle.......you are super injury prone if you have no muscle mass and what seems to be limited lifting experience and then jump on a cycle and lift above and beyond your true strength point. ALA Tendonitis, your tendons won't catch up to the muscle strength nearly as fast.....I wish you the best, but I think this is bad overall, you can tell that you don't even know how to functionally eat which is a bare necessity.....
> 
> This is just bad, I don't care if you are "working hard" in your mind or not.......I would try naturally for at least a year.
> 
> I apologize for my extreme honest and blunt comment, but I wouldn't want someone to ruin themselves. There are plenty of guys out there that have done a cycle, got injured and never really made it back to the gym.......consistency is key at the end of the day.



You’re opinion is valid and I appreciate that you laid it out in a constructive way. 

With all due respect, I lift with lots of reps (12 - 14) and a weight that is good for me. I used to go for 5-8 reps heavy and this turned out to be an issue for my body.

Before starting AAS, due to my extensive research, one thing I was aware of was huge strength gain and that affecting tendons due to over lifting weight wise. This has never happened though. I’ve never got super man strength and I’ve continued to follow a very strict progressive overload system. 

Hell I only deadlift 80kg atm as when I started back at the gym for the god knows how many times back at the start of 2017, I worked my way up from zero. Just a bar, to allow my body to get used to it. 

Starting at 6 reps and going to 12 reps. 1 rep more each week. Once I built up to 12 reps I increase the weight 2.5kg. 

Lifting big weights and ego lifting in general is not something I do. After working with a personal trainer for a week to perfect form, I’ve realised that it’s much much better for me to lift a reasonable amount of weight that allows me to focus on form and promotes muscle hypertrophy. 

AAS will play no part what so ever in me being injured due to my approach and understanding that it approached wrong, it would play a part.

----------


## cousinmuscles

> You’re opinion is valid and I appreciate that you laid it out in a constructive way. 
> 
> With all due respect, I lift with lots of reps (12 - 14) and a weight that is good for me. I used to go for 5-8 reps heavy and this turned out to be an issue for my body.
> 
> Before starting AAS, *due to my extensive research*, one thing I was aware of was huge strength gain and that affecting tendons due to over lifting weight wise. This has never happened though. I’ve never got super man strength and I’ve continued to follow a very strict progressive overload system. 
> 
> Hell I only deadlift 80kg atm as when I started back at the gym for the god knows how many times back at the start of 2017, I worked my way up from zero. Just a bar, to allow my body to get used to it. 
> 
> Starting at 6 reps and going to 12 reps. 1 rep more each week. Once I built up to 12 reps I increase the weight 2.5kg. 
> ...


Hehehe

Perfecting form takes years. 

Your joints get stronger through years and years of training.

If you are not seeing dramatic increases in a progressive overload training system when on AAS then you are living proof that you aren't gaining any faster than if you just trained. 

I bet you like all this attention and that I replied though  :Smilie:

----------


## Jangles1

It’s a big learning curve man. We know ive made mistakes with this cycle and starting too soon. Thats in the past and I am solely focused on finishing this journey. Looking to the future and finishing this cycle and seeing the results once PCT is over. 

If anything this whole process will be a great learning tool for others. So I am happy about that silver lining in all the negativity that has come with it. 


Back to your comment...


I’m obviously seeing steady increase each week, but you’re most probably right. I’ve not gained any superman type strength from this cycle. 

I am aware of my body being injury prone and taking it steady. Don’t move up weight until I can perform 3 sets + a warm up of my desired rep range perfectly. Lower weight lifted correctly will promote a much better muscle building environment than heayy weights lifted with 70% correct form and lessen the likelyhood of injury. 

I’m not hear for attention and although to appreciate your input, in the nicest possible way, I could not give a flying f if you commented or not. Very weird of you to even mention that tbh.

----------


## cousinmuscles

> It’s a big learning curve man. We know ive made mistakes with this cycle and starting too soon. Thats in the past and I am solely focused on finishing this journey. Looking to the future and finishing this cycle and seeing the results once PCT is over. 
> 
> If anything this whole process will be a great learning tool for others. So I am happy about that silver lining in all the negativity that has come with it. 
> 
> 
> Back to your comment...
> 
> 
> I’m obviously seeing steady increase each week, but you’re most probably right. I’ve not gained any superman type strength from this cycle. 
> ...


After watching threads come and go it is evident that a lot of threads similar to this are for the purpose of getting attention.

It is getting dramatic though lol. 

Whether it's three sets and a warm-up before you increase weight... This is just one variable of many that you have to experiment with until you learn. Trying to learn ON CYCLE is adding a very complex variable that will mess up the results making you draw faulty conclusions. In essence what you are doing may be very bad methods at way below maximum intensity, but on cycle on a body that has not yet been accustomed to weight training it will give results anyway.

You need to, over along period of time, figure out how much work you can do without getting to the point of diminishing returns, per workout. That is, how many exercises, muscles etc per workout. Then figure out frequency, is it worth it doing less work per session and train more frequently or not? Or is it even worth it doing more work and resting longer? How many weeks before you need to change exercises, rep range, utilizing other techniques like dropsets, negatives et.c. There are even set out programs where you can try a different approach, log the results over say a 4-6 month period, compare with other programs you have tried and see if 4-6 months yielded better results... Once you've done this you'll understand where everyone is coming from. 

Start a journal in the workout section, you're going to get much better responses than starting a log of a test E cycle when you're incline benching 42,5kg and getting injured lol.

You will also get time to contemplate on whether lifting is your passion and if the side effects are something you accept vs the gains.

----------


## Jangles1

*Week 11*

*Pin*

Fine but still get pip sometimes. Randomly. 

*Gym* 

Solid although tough with Bicep Tendonitis in both arms now. Had to drop most free weight chest exercises and swap for the machines. They dont aggravate my issue.

*Diet* 

Spot on. 

*Weight* 

Week 1 - 170 lbs
Week 11 - 194lbs

24lbs gained 

*Sides*

Zero


*Conclusion*


Everything seems good.

----------


## Jangles1

Got my newest blood test back today to check my estorgen was under control with the extra prop. Looks like my estorgen is in control, going down sightly. 

It seems 25pg or around this mark is my sweet spot as I have had far less spots / achne with this level of estrogen. Even with over 1g of test a week (added prop to make up for 6 weeks of underdosed Test E but made it a priority to keep my estorgen in check by taking 0.5mg of Adex a week and getting another blood check)


Blood work 


*PRE Cycle 

*
Test - 482 ng/dl
LH - 9.1
FSH - 8.94 
Estrogen - 16pg



*MID cycle* 

Test - 1007 ng/dl

LH - < 0.300
FSH - <0.300
Estrogen - 30pg



*MID Cycle 2 (2 weeks after adding 150mg prop eod)*

Test - 8300 ng/dl




*MID cycle 3 (5 weeks of Prop added)*


Estrogen - 23pg


——-


I will extend this cycle to 14 weeks if I keep getting gains in the next few weeks. We will see how my weight looks on Monday.

----------


## The Deadlifting Dog

> I will extend this cycle to 14 weeks if I keep getting gains in the next few weeks. We will see how my weight looks on Monday.


I personally weigh myself post poopy in the morning everyday.
The reason I do it everyday is that my weight can go up or down 2-3lbs a day depending upon if I worked out, drank enough water, ate enough, slept well, etc...
If you want to be anal then you can use a weekly average to compare one week to the next.

But basically if I am 224-225 all week but 227 after going out to dinner Saturday night, I know I am realistically 224.5.
If I only weighed myself on Sunday morning then I wouldn't be able to tell.

----------


## Jangles1

I used to do that and divide by 7 for a mean average. 

Guess there’s a few ways to do it. Which is the best though ha. Who knows.

----------


## Jangles1

Diet update

*Lunch* 

Chicken, rice, peppers, olive oil and eggs

888 calories

Carbs - 36.2
Fat - 44.3
Protein - 83.2

----------


## marcus300

> *Week 11*
> 
> *Pin*
> 
> Fine but still get pip sometimes. Randomly. 
> 
> *Gym* 
> 
> Solid although tough with Bicep Tendonitis in both arms now. Had to drop most free weight chest exercises and swap for the machines. They dont aggravate my issue.
> ...


How long have you been training for and are you training for size? 
what type of training do you implement and have you tried other training methods in the past?

----------


## Jangles1

> How long have you been training for and are you training for size? 
> what type of training do you implement and have you tried other training methods in the past?



It’s all in the log mate. Too detailed to explain in one post. I am training for lean, quality size.

----------


## Mooseman33

what ur plan for the tendonitis?

----------


## Jangles1

> what ur plan for the tendonitis?


Ive been dealing with it in my right since I started training and it went on bench press back in 2014..... Ive tried 3 private pysio's ranging from $80 - $190 an hour and 2 lots of NHS Pysio, which takes 5 months to book in and is very time consuming.... Although the initial sharp pain in my right arm calmed down, I have had the issue since day 1 and its never fully gone away. Its always aggravated by things like Incline Bench / Dumbbell and simple things like brushing my teeth in a certain position, or moving my arm in weird positions. 

About 3 weeks ago I started to get it in my left arm. At this point it was just funny. Heart breakingly funny. I went to see a private pysio right away and they said the usual stuff, rest, no lifting etc. Advice i've not taken as i'm mid cycle and Ive had over 8 months (2 x 4 months) off before for the right arm, and as soon as I get back to training it flairs up again, and never goes away, even with the huge rest periods. 

Anyway its pretty severe in my left arm. I cant do any overhead pressing or benching at an angle above 15 degrees.....

Its driving me mad but I am working through it by using the machine chest press and a 20 degree angled bench. I cant go higher than 20 degrees so I am worried my upper pec will lack, but I am going to try decline bench next week after seeing an interesting Dorian Yates video where he says the decline bench is the best for overall chest building. 

I guess I am always going to have these issues unless I stop lifting, and even then I may need surgery. 

I have yet another NHS pysio appointment after waiting 4 months and I am going demand a MRI scan, although i'm sure they will pie me off with an X Ray and a series of pysio sessions, which is a waste of time....

I also paid $600 for a 10 week treatment of TB-500, but I am 4 weeks in atm, and its not doing much. 

YET, im still in the gym 6 days a week !!! 

Id do anything to not be in this pain and have these issues, but like Gearhead said, thats life and I need to just crack on...

My past gym buddy is fit as a fiddle and has zero issues or issues with any exercise yet is so lazy he couldn't even manage to eat 3000 calories a day and quit after 1 year.... Irony at its best haha

----------


## Nogbad the bad

You can't 'demand' an MRI scan from the nhs,they'll tell you what you can have,and if you don't like it,fuck off!
Oh,and enjoy the use of it while you can,because it's about fucked,and sooner rather than later,we'll have an American style system,
where if you can't afford it,not only can you fuck off,but you can fuck off and die...as many do.

----------


## Jangles1

> You can't 'demand' an MRI scan from the nhs,they'll tell you what you can have,and if you don't like it,fuck off!
> Oh,and enjoy the use of it while you can,because it's about fucked,and sooner rather than later,we'll have an American style system,
> where if you can't afford it,not only can you fuck off,but you can fuck off and die...as many do.


Yeah true. They will refer me for an x ray, then make me have more time wasting pysio, then I might get one. 


I do not think we will go down the USA system, just don't think we're that stupid.....

----------


## Jangles1

Coming up to end of week 11. 

Feeling great with my results and progress. 

As if tomorrow I will take Songdogs advice and weight my self every day to work out my true average and to see if I really am still gaining. 

I will carry on this cycle for as long as I keep gaining. (Max 16 weeks) to maximise the results of my cycle. 

I am experiencing zero sides atm, even with the extra prop (which will be dropped after week 12 as that is my 6 weeks of making up for under dosed test from weeks 1 - 6). 

My Estorgen is well in check which has always been a priority for me. Like I said before, I think I found my “no sides” sweet spot at 23pg of Estrogen. I will monitor this closely. 

Plenty of EQ cycles go to 16 - 20 weeks, so I don’t see any issue with this at all as long as I am still gaining quality weight. 

My diet is spot on as is my training. 

I actually look to be leaning out a little bit which is odd as I’m still eating 3750 calories a day and have not added cardio. 

Il do a weight update at the start of week 13.

----------


## hbkx1

Sorry if I missed it but are you going to the doctor for blood work or doing one of those at home/mail in kits? I'm new to the dark side as well and completed my first cycle a couple months ago and ready to start the second. I came back and edited my post because it looks like the thing to do (in the US at least) is to schedule bloodwork through a company online and go to the phlebotomist.

----------


## Jangles1

I am in the UK mate. Our doctors are more strict here with AAS and its not as accepted as in the USA. Doctors wont give bloods as thy see it as advocating AAS. 

I know a guy who wanted to get on TRT and his levels were NONE existent. They made him do 2 blood tests to confirm then the Doctor didn't even know what to do for him. They eventually sent him to the right place and they reluctantly agreed to give him TRT, but he had to go to the Doctors once a week as they wont send the Test out..... In the end he just started to self medicate as it was too much hassle doing it once a week. 


In terms of bloods for myself, I use a great blood mail service called MY MEDI CHECKS... Its not cheap, but if I am going to do AAS, I am going to do it as safe as possible.

----------


## BuddyGlove1

What size pin are you using??

----------


## Nogbad the bad

Disagree regarding UK doctors.I told my doc,that doing a low-ish dose test and deca cycle had improved my life
both physically and mentally no end,and asked if i could have my bloods checked.She didn't see a problem,and
it took a fortnight to have the resultant printout in my hands.
The only thing that she said she'd be concerned about,was if using steroids made me more aggressive..it doesn't.

----------


## Jangles1

> Disagree regarding UK doctors.I told my doc,that doing a low-ish dose test and deca cycle had improved my life
> both physically and mentally no end,and asked if i could have my bloods checked.She didn't see a problem,and
> it took a fortnight to have the resultant printout in my hands.
> The only thing that she said she'd be concerned about,was if using steroids made me more aggressive..it doesn't.



Its discretionary isn't it. Down to the moral belief of your doctor.

Why isn't she putting you on TRT ?

----------


## Jangles1

> What size pin are you using??



23g to pin

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> Its discretionary isn't it. Down to the moral belief of your doctor.
> 
> Why isn't she putting you on TRT ?


 Sometimes,it may well be how you broach a subject with your doctor.I am very open and honest,and tell it like it is.
I also do my own research,so i'm not wasting the doc's valuable time.
As far as trt is concerned,my test levels were in range,and she asked me if i wanted to see a specialist regarding my test levels,but to be fair,i didn't want to
over burden a crisis ridden NHS,unless i really needed to.I wake up with a hardon every morning,so at this moment in time,i think i'll just leave things as they are.
Bearing in mind,there are people lying in hospital corridors,because there aren't enough beds,it just seems to be the right thing to do.

----------


## Jangles1

> Sometimes,it may well be how you broach a subject with your doctor.I am very open and honest,and tell it like it is.
> I also do my own research,so i'm not wasting the doc's valuable time.
> As far as trt is concerned,my test levels were in range,and she asked me if i wanted to see a specialist regarding my test levels,but to be fair,i didn't want to
> over burden a crisis ridden NHS,unless i really needed to.I wake up with a hardon every morning,so at this moment in time,i think i'll just leave things as they are.
> Bearing in mind,there are people lying in hospital corridors,because there aren't enough beds,it just seems to be the right thing to do.


Nah thats fair bro. Nice work

----------


## Jangles1

*Week 12*  

*Pin*

Sweet. 

*Gym* 

Working through injuries is a pain, but its going well. Progressively getting stronger each week.

*Diet* 

As always, nicely balanced. 

*Weight* 

Start - 170.2
Week 12 - 196.4

26lsb gained

*Sides*

None

*PIP*

Random. 

*Conclusion*


Really good. I dont see where the weight is going now, but I dont feel I am adding fat, and im steadily gaining each week (2lbs from last week). I think im just inflating my entire body haha. Not seeing massive muscles but I know thats because of my body fat. I cant wait to do another clean bulk then cut down to 8% body fat. Hopefully have my dream body then. (190ish, 8/10% body fat, 6ft.)



From this week I will be weighing myself each day and do a weekly mean average. Hopefully I will keep gaining 1/2 lbs a week for the next 3/4 weeks. Long as I am gaining I will continue to week 16.

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> From a female perspective I would fuck you the same way beginnning or end, from the start of this baseless journey.
> 
> Gimme that peepee big boy! I wanna feel my arms around your narrow shoulders!


You are fucking MAD! lol.

----------


## ThatGuy82

Holy fuck this was a good read! I LOL'd ...a lot. This was a great core workout reading through some of these comments. 

Jangles my man I give you props for putting yourself out there like that. Take the constructive criticism here and run with it, learn from it all, and keep driving towards your goals in the future. Good luck man!

----------


## Jangles1

It’s been a journey and I have learnt a lot. That’s what life’s all about man. 

Can’t wait to come back 4 or 5 weeks after PCT and prove loads of folk wrong with the gains I’ve kept. 

Unless they magically shrink away because I wasn’t at 76585lbs before I started  :Aabanhimlikeabitch:

----------


## Jangles1

> You are fucking MAD! lol.


Lmao. Even after all this time you get negative people like him who can’t take a step back and appreciate the work that’s gone into this. No base or not. I’ve worked hard and made amazing changes despite all the negativity and annoying injuries I have. 

Guess some people are just plain dicks. 


#ifyouhavenothingnicetosaydontsayit

----------


## hammerheart

> Really good. I dont see where the weight is going now, but I dont feel I am adding fat, and im steadily gaining each week (2lbs from last week). I think im just inflating my entire body haha. Not seeing massive muscles but I know thats because of my body fat. I cant wait to do another clean bulk then cut down to 8% body fat. Hopefully have my dream body then. (190ish, 8/10% body fat, 6ft.)
> 
> 
> 
> From this week I will be weighing myself each day and do a weekly mean average. Hopefully I will keep gaining 1/2 lbs a week for the next 3/4 weeks. Long as I am gaining I will continue to week 16.


Those shoulders are gonna explode!

Also make sure you switch hands when playing with yourself, or symmetry will suffer. That's a real thing on cycle.

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Got a base now don’t I?


https://youtu.be/nDwQJ64UpFQ

How dare you speak to mr obs like that. Settle it like men. Pistols at dawn...

And btw. Youre base for starting aas doesnt count if you need aas to reach it... js.

Im glad youre happy because at the end of the day thats all that matters but id be gutted if my first cycle even closely resembled yours.

----------


## Jangles1

> Those shoulders are gonna explode!
> 
> Also make sure you switch hands when playing with yourself, or symmetry will suffer. That's a real thing on cycle.




hahaha

----------


## Jangles1

> https://youtu.be/nDwQJ64UpFQ
> 
> How dare you speak to mr obs like that. Settle it like men. Pistols at dawn...
> 
> And btw. Youre base for starting aas doesnt count if you need aas to reach it... js.
> 
> Im glad youre happy because at the end of the day thats all that matters but id be gutted if my first cycle even closely resembled yours.


I just went and checked the 'Steroid Base Handbook' and cant find any into to back up your statement ;0

Jokes aside. Whatever I keep from this cycle (10 weeks after PCT) will then be my base. So it doesn't really matter if I used AAS to get It or not, its still my base before moving on to cycle 2, when ever that may be.


' but id be gutted if my first cycle even closely resembled yours'

 :Hmmmm:  

Nearly 30lbs added, even with the under dosed Test at the start.... Yeah ok. Im sure you'd be gutted if you gained 30lbs with minimal fat (from what I can see). Some comedians popping up in this thread lately.

----------


## hollowedzeus

> I just went and checked the 'Steroid Base Handbook' and cant find any into to back up your statement ;0
> 
> Jokes aside. Whatever I keep from this cycle (10 weeks after PCT) will then be my base. So it doesn't really matter if I used AAS to get It or not, its still my base before moving on to cycle 2, when ever that may be.
> 
> 
> ' but id be gutted if my first cycle even closely resembled yours'
> 
>  
> 
> Nearly 30lbs added, even with the under dosed Test at the start.... Yeah ok. Im sure you'd be gutted if you gained 30lbs with minimal fat (from what I can see). Some comedians popping up in this thread lately.


I think you're delusional. I added more visable mass in 16 weeks naturally with test levels at 9nmol/l.

I dont know where the 30lbs went but it certainly didnt all go to muscle.

Im certain you will keep all of your gains post pct and surgery because you didnt gain very much

----------


## Jangles1

> I think you're delusional. I added more visable mass in 16 weeks naturally with test levels at 9nmol/l.
> 
> I dont know where the 30lbs went but it certainly didnt all go to muscle.
> 
> Im certain you will keep all of your gains post pct and surgery because you didnt gain very much



Lmao are you actually blind. Clearly a troll.

Can’t wait to see your cycle log. Il be keeping an eye out for it that’s for sure.

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Lmao are you actually blind. Clearly a troll.
> 
> Can’t wait to see your cycle log. Il be keeping an eye out for it that’s for sure.


Oh youll see it. Ill get my trt dialed in and it will be in my log.

I personally just feel if you were in a room with other average joes and a member of the public couldnt pick you out as the steroid user, there is a problem...

----------


## Jangles1

That’s a fair comment and BANG what I want. 

I don’t want to look like a steroid user. I want another 30/35% size and then to cut to 8/10 % bodyfat. 

Not everyone wants to look jacked as fuck. 

Doing this cycle has been the best thing ive ever done. I do wish I waited a bit and cycled later. But you can’t change the past. I’ve doubled in size, something I could have achieved without AAS yes, but I have my reasons, which you will know if you read this cycle log in full.

It’s nice to break the mould that you must achive your natty limit before cycling. Whether you agree with me doing it this way or not, the results are just as good, up to now anyway.

The “Delusional” comments crack me up. A few people have said this, but I’m a realist if anything. 

I’ve done what I’ve set out too and done it well (in terms of lbs gained). Let’s see how much i keep before getting too far ahead of my self though haha.

Half of this journey mindset and determination and you’d be hard set to find anyone as determined as me (and many of the dedicated guys on this board) in your average set of people. 

I know if my head and heart that il keep my gains from this cycle. My work ethic in the kitchen and gym along with the way I will approach a proper PCT and therefore after, simply won’t allow me to not solidify my gains.

----------


## David LoPan

Looks like that cycle has added some hair to your chest.

----------


## Capebuffalo

Is this your trainer?

----------


## Jangles1

> Is this your trainer?


He seems to know what he is doing. Nice gains there. Not everyone wants to show off their muscles in cheesy wifebeater vests bro.

----------


## Jangles1

> Looks like that cycle has added some hair to your chest.




Hair and 30lbs of just water yeah

lmao

----------


## songdog

> I think you're delusional. I added more visable mass in 16 weeks naturally with test levels at 9nmol/l.
> 
> I dont know where the 30lbs went but it certainly didnt all go to muscle.
> 
> Im certain you will keep all of your gains post pct and surgery because you didnt gain very much


I agree with you bro!

----------


## Jangles1

> I agree with you bro!



www.sighteyeclinic.com

Get them sorted mate. You're blind.....

*'I dont know where the 30lbs went but it certainly didnt all go to muscle.
'*

NO bulk cycle adds pure muscle. Fat and water are inevitable. Unsure why people are all of a sudden seeming to be act like they dont know this basic info. Of course its not all muscle you moron. . Very odd. 

One look at my pics shows you the progress I have made. Just because I have not blown up into some muscle bound freak does not mean I have not added some nice lean mass. 

---

'You wont gain shit from this cycle' 'Your going to keep no gains' ' you're the only person who has ever cycle that wont get any gains cause you started undersize' blah blah blah blah

I get comments from people nearly every day... But yeah, ive not added muscle on this cycle.
I dont fit in half my shirts anymore, but yeah, I guess its all fat. 

You guys crack me up!

The obvious bias hate in this thread purely because I didn't build more of a base shows some of you guys for who you really are. I hope people who read this are prepared for some of this shit certain members on this board spout. Unless you are literally blind, you can clearly see through my pics that I had mad really strong overall gains, in relative terms to my admittedly crap physique when starting out on this magical journey....

Keep hating. Doesn't phase me one single bit..

----------


## David LoPan

> www.sighteyeclinic.com
> 
> Get them sorted mate. You're blind.....
> 
> *'I dont know where the 30lbs went but it certainly didnt all go to muscle.
> '*
> 
> NO bulk cycle adds pure muscle. Fat and water are inevitable. Unsure why people are all of a sudden seeming to be act like they dont know this basic info. Of course its not all muscle you moron. . Very odd. 
> 
> ...


You added tren didnt you? Be honest? Test does add water so wait to see what the scale says after your PCT. Good work at the gym.

----------


## Jangles1

> You added tren didnt you? Be honest? Test does add water so wait to see what the scale says after your PCT. Good work at the gym.


lmao imagine.... Tren would surely be pointless in a bulk cycle like mine, with my #base ?

Yeah there is clearly a lot of water as well as fat and muscle. My massage therapist has found that a lot of my muscle has been distorted to my back, thighs, hamstring etc. My arms have practically doubled when I tense them. Ive a nice even distribution it seems.

My E2 levels have ranged from 30pg to 23pg on cycle. So E conversion is clearly happening. Its nicely in control though. I have not had a single side since week 6 (just ache and an slightly sore nipple for 2 days).

----------


## David LoPan

Hell Dball and Tren with test would be huge gain on a bulk if you eat right. Base or not. Smart NOT at all. I know you will be on it soon enough.  :Smilie:

----------


## Dubai

This is a very entertaining thread ... gear heads vs the science nerd ... a must read for anyone wanting to see what happens when a bookworm goes on a cycle to try and become a man

----------


## hollowedzeus

Im not hating on you

Since you keep saying ypure not phased i keep giving my opinion.
How little muscle you put on is not proportianal to your base... since you started with so little you hypothetically should have gotten more out of it percentage wise that someone with a higher muscle mass.

The fact that you added so little suggests little knowledge in training and nutrition. Ive saw your sample meals and its seems good but for sure there is something amiss.

If you want me to stop commenting tell me and i will.

Wishing you all the best

----------


## Jangles1

> Im not hating on you
> 
> Since you keep saying ypure not phased i keep giving my opinion.
> How little muscle you put on is not proportianal to your base... since you started with so little you hypothetically should have gotten more out of it percentage wise that someone with a higher muscle mass.
> 
> The fact that you added so little suggests little knowledge in training and nutrition. Ive saw your sample meals and its seems good but for sure there is something amiss.
> 
> If you want me to stop commenting tell me and i will.
> 
> Wishing you all the best




Nah man feel free to keep commenting. Im happy to receive negative feedback as long as its constructive. One cannot learn without such feedback....

I dont know what else to say really. My diet IS in check, my training IS in check, Im not fitting into half my shirts anymore, everyone who I see (who ive not seen for a while) has commented on how mad I look compared to 3 months ago etc.... Going by my pics and body, I do not feel I have put on much fat... 

Ive added 30lbs of something lol..... 


I do not see where this 'you have added so little' is coming from. I look like a totally different person. If this is 'little' in terms of lean muscle mass, I cant wait to smash some Decca and D Bol and see what I get from that....

My first 6 weeks was with underdosed Test, but I added Test Prop (Week 6 - 12) to make up for it.... Other than that and the fact (we knowwwwwwww) I started my cycle before building a better base, I do not see what else I could be doing wrong. I'm in the gym 6 days a week following a really solid Push Pull Legs plan. 

I am happy with the change I have gone through and will just keep working hard once PCT has finished to keep gaining naturally.

My only conclusion is that you have unrealistic expectations of what a mild AAS cycle will do for someone who is undersized... Relatively speaking in terms of my before and current pics, I have clearly made an amazing change in my body. Anyone with a set of eyes can see that I have about doubled in size. 



--

*Todays Diet (3900 cals atm)
*


*Breakfast* 

Milk 
Protein Powder

Cals - 312

*Lunch* 

Chicken, Rice, Peppers, Green Beans, Eggs, Olive Oil

Cals - 1079

*Dinner* 

Chicken, Sweet Potato, Avocado, Olive Oil

Cals - 1096

*Snacks* 

Milk + Oats Shake 
Almonds 
Cashew Nuts
Organic Yogurt 
Pro Elite 'My Protein' Protein Bar 

Cals - 1444


Total 

P - 312 (usually shoot for 280 and the rest carbs)
C - 350
F - 139

Calories - 3930


------

*Todays Workout* 


Pull

Deadlift 
Bent Over Row
Wide Grip Pull Ups
Lat Pulldown
Seated Row
Preacher Curl
Hammer Curl

-----

----------


## cousinmuscles

> Nah man feel free to keep commenting. Im happy to receive negative feedback as long as its constructive. One cannot learn without such feedback....
> 
> I dont know what else to say really. My diet IS in check, my training IS in check, Im not fitting into half my shirts anymore, everyone who I see (who ive not seen for a while) has commented on how mad I look compared to 3 months ago etc.... Going by my pics and body, I do not feel I have put on much fat... 
> 
> Ive added 30lbs of something lol..... 
> 
> I do not see where this 'you have added so little' is coming from. I look like a totally different person. If this is 'little' in terms of lean muscle mass, I cant wait to smash some Decca and D Bol and see what I get from that....
> 
> My first 6 weeks was with underdosed Test, but I added Test Prop (Week 6 - 12) to make up for it.... Other than that and the fact (we knowwwwwwww) I started my cycle before building a better base, I do not see what else I could be doing wrong. I'm in the gym 6 days a week following a really solid Push Pull Legs plan. 
> ...


You have barely changed in your pictures. There's some constructive feedback. I made better gains naturally as a teenager within the same timeframe. You are blinded by scale weight gain but completely miss points like the fact that you're using 42,5kg for incline bench - at that level you can just train and grow even with subpar training and diet naturally.

It is wrong to just come here in your thread and put you down. As much as you don't care about getting attention or don't care if you're not succumbing to others pleasures, extremely few would enjoy putting you down when you have accomplished something. 

You are not truthful in what you say you do, and that is easy to measure from observing the outcome. You aren't truthful when you look at your own pictures either. Usually it's the other way around with lifters they think they're just small lol.

----------


## Jangles1

> You have barely changed in your pictures. There's some constructive feedback. 
> 
> .



You my friend are having a laugh.. The weight means nothing to me. I am going of my progress pics, how I fit in to clothes and the comments I am getting from people that dont know I am going to the gym.. To say I have barely changed is absolutely laughable. 

The difference in the pics is night and day. You're letting your ego get in the way of your opinion, clearly. I may not look like i've done a 12 week Test cycle, but to say I have not made a significant change in my frame is absurd. 





> You are not truthful in what you say you do, and that is easy to measure from watching the outcome .



You're wrong man. I have nothing to hide and have been nothing but 100% truthful from day 1. 

Its so pleasing sitting here knowing that some guy on a forum is saying something that is totally untrue. You have no idea man.



--

When all I said and done, not one of you guys opinions means a single thing to me. This is why its SO SO funny to me. All that matters is how I feel. I think I will trust the consent flow of people that have randomly come up to me and commented on my progress + the fitting of my clothes over some but hurt, ego driven forum members opinion.

I have done this log so people can learn (you always learn from your mistakes and people can learn from a few of mine by reading this) 

I will follow through until the end, then come back after PCT, like I said I would. If I loose my appranrt none gains, then you can say you told me so  :Smilie:

----------


## cousinmuscles

> You my friend are having a laugh....


Had to Google that phrase sounded like an idiom, no I am not kidding, the difference in the muscle mass gained is gigantic compared to my first cycle of 600mg test. Being that you had very little muscle to begin with the visual difference should have been bigger even if we had gained as much LBM.

----------


## Jangles1

> This is a very entertaining thread ... gear heads vs the science nerd ... a must read for anyone wanting to see what happens when a bookworm goes on a cycle to try and become a man


Ive put on 30lbs from this cycle and changed my entire frame and feel a lot better in my own skin... Im saying its a huge success as of now (pre PCT). 

(PS - If you think doing a cycle makes you a man, you need a reality check. Being a good personal morally makes you a man in my book).

----------


## Jangles1

> Had to Google that phrase sounded like an idiom, no I am not kidding, the difference in the muscle mass gained is gigantic compared to my first cycle of 600mg test. Being that you had very little muscle to begin with the visual difference should have been bigger even if we had gained as much LBM.



Should have, would have, could have. 

Everyone is different and your statement means jack in the real world man. Sorry, not being a dick but thats just true. 

Who cares what I should have gained. Im concentrating on what I HAVE gained  :Smilie: 



'Had to Google that phrase sounded'


Must be a UK saying.

----------


## cousinmuscles

> Should have, would have, could have. 
> 
> Everyone is different and your statement means jack in the real world man. Sorry, not being a dick but thats just true. 
> 
> Who cares what I should have gained. Im concentrating on what I HAVE gained


If you're happy then of course my word means jack shit  :Smilie:

----------


## Jangles1

What I mean is, you cant know what I would have gained or should have gained. Its an impossible task to know exactly how things would have been with a better base. One can guess or form an educated opinion, but to say it as black and white as you do IMO is not right. 

Who knows ? I never will and I dont care haha.

----------


## Jangles1

> Hell Dball and Tren with test would be huge gain on a bulk if you eat right. Base or not. Smart NOT at all. I know you will be on it soon enough.




Id prefer to get lean gains tbh. I dont think I will ever do a big wet bulk.

----------


## Jangles1

Tonight has been fun but far too distracting. I must go as I need to eat another 76889 calories so I can put on 0.0003% of muscle from this cycle.

Week 13 update coming Monday with pics showing ive made absolutely zero change to my body, a load of lies about my diet and training and weight update that shows ive put on nothing but fat, all on my left foot. 

Peace

----------


## David LoPan

I can say unlike most people that run their first cycle you have stayed with it, trained, learned, skipped going out drinking with your friends. You made a lifestyle change and you, unlike most on here posted their pictures for their first cycle. I say, good job, you are learning and you have thick skin. What it takes in life. Could you have done this without AAS, IDK maybe or maybe not. You could still be out running with your mates.

You made a choice and you have stuck with it.

----------


## kronik420

> Nah man feel free to keep commenting. Im happy to receive negative feedback as long as its constructive. One cannot learn without such feedback....
> 
> I dont know what else to say really. My diet IS in check, my training IS in check, Im not fitting into half my shirts anymore, everyone who I see (who ive not seen for a while) has commented on how mad I look compared to 3 months ago etc.... Going by my pics and body, I do not feel I have put on much fat... 
> 
> Ive added 30lbs of something lol..... 
> 
> 
> I do not see where this 'you have added so little' is coming from. I look like a totally different person. If this is 'little' in terms of lean muscle mass, I cant wait to smash some Decca and D Bol and see what I get from that....
> 
> ...


sets? reps? weight? progress from last pull day??

----------


## GearHeaded

> I can say unlike most people that run their first cycle you have stayed with it, trained, learned, skipped going out drinking with your friends. You made a lifestyle change and you, unlike most on here posted their pictures for their first cycle. I say, good job, you are learning and you have thick skin. What it takes in life. Could you have done this without AAS, IDK maybe or maybe not. You could still be out running with your mates.
> 
> You made a choice and you have stuck with it.


good post

----------


## hollowedzeus

I do gice jangles props for sticking to his guns. Ot would be far more admirable if he didnt hit out with stuff like 'go fuckyourself' but thats that.

I dont want to come across as a bully but just to be absolutely clear, you have certainly thickened. Whether that be from aas water retention or some added beef we dont and cant know. I suspect its a bit of both.

If youre really eating what you say youre eating.... a massive well done its hard work.

However in response to david lopan. If someone goes on about how they are resistance going out on the piss at the weekend, its not a lifestyle change.... its a like a woman 'going on a diet'. Fo it for a biy then go on a binge.

I apologise if i have came across rude but im trying to convince you to see what we see because it funny sometimes when when you posted up your pictures.


This is coming from a 19 year old so take it with however much of a pinch of salt you want. Keep training and keep eating.

----------


## Jangles1

All good mate. Thank you. 


I’ve stuck with this from day 1 and put my self out there for criticism because I want to learn. 

Me not being truthful about my calorie intake and training would be counter productive to this log and getting feedback I can apply. 

3 major things I’ve taken on board from this log are 

- changing my routine. I was doing a 5 day split (not bro split) and someone recommended i need to hit each body part twice. So I did research and switched up to a 6 day push pull legs. 

- not eating as much protein. I was on 280g a day at 180lbs. I took on board the feedback I was given and dropped it to 250g replacing the rest with carbs 

- I’ve come to understand that I was inpatient and even with injuries, should have worked through to build a better base. This would have given me better results on a first cycle. 


All in all, I’m here to learn and although I don’t agree or take on board every single little comment (I have my own mind), I have soaked up a wealth of knowledge and I’ve said many times “it’s been a journey”

I will start taking more pics of my meals and posting more about nutrition for the last few weeks.

In terms of me saying go fuck yourself I have to stick up for myself here. Besides all this forum shit I’m a good person with morals and treat others how I want to be treated. If you read this entire thread you will see the shit I’ve had to put up with. From being accused of lying about my age to lying about my calorie intake. I’ve been told I must quit. This cycle is pointless. I’ve been told im nothing but skinny and will not keep a single thing from this cycle. I’ve been told this, that and just about every negative thing you could think of. Some justified. Some not. That’s lif though and you can’t run a log and only hope for positive comments. I was prepared for constructive negative comments and some none constructive. Unfortunately 90% of the negatives have been Unconstructive. 

Given the circumstances I would say I’ve handled it fairly well and have been nice to most people. Most people would have bailed on week 1 of this log. 

The only people I’ve said bad things to are morons like Caberbofoon or whatever his name is (wife beater guy) who make fun of my progress (doesn’t bother me 1 bit. Just makes me giggle. 45 year old man being a forum bully lol). So in regards to those. They can go fuck them selves  :Aabreakdance: 

If no one likes that attitude then don’t read this thread.

----------


## Jangles1

> sets? reps? weight? progress from last pull day??



1 warm up set always then 3 working sets with 10-12 reps. 

I work to failure though and progressively overload each week. Either 1 more rep in every set or just something as long as it’s an improvement in weight or rep. 

Weight is low as I’m coming back from an injury and started from scratch to allow my body to get used to weight. 

This is advice my Pysio, Doctor, massage therapist and personal trainer friend (he’s jacked) told me. Training smart, focusing on form and technique is my approach. 

Bare in mind I’ve had Bicep Tendonits in both arms and a fucked up rotator cuff through the entire cycle. Still in the gym 6 days a week though !

----------


## hammerheart

> Had to Google that phrase sounded like an idiom


It means he was having a giggle

----------


## Nogbad the bad

> www.sighteyeclinic.com
> 
> Get them sorted mate. You're blind.....
> 
> *'I dont know where the 30lbs went but it certainly didnt all go to muscle.
> '*
> 
> NO bulk cycle adds pure muscle. Fat and water are inevitable. Unsure why people are all of a sudden seeming to be act like they dont know this basic info. Of course its not all muscle you moron. . Very odd. 
> 
> ...


 Regardless of who's right and who's wrong on this,
i have to give you credit for fighting your corner.If you're happy with your results,that's all that really matters.There are those on the forum,
who are very knowledgeable,and give good guidance,and there are those who know no more than yourself.The piss taking...well,that's just
the way it goes on a site chock full of narcissistic blokes,myself included.Hopefully,any negativity you receive,should serve only to spur you on
to reach your goals.
Best of luck. :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Jangles1

> Regardless of who's right and who's wrong on this,
> i have to give you credit for fighting your corner.If you're happy with your results,that's all that really matters.There are those on the forum,
> who are very knowledgeable,and give good guidance,and there are those who know no more than yourself.The piss taking...well,that's just
> the way it goes on a site chock full of narcissistic blokes,myself included.Hopefully,any negativity you receive,should serve only to spur you on
> to reach your goals.
> Best of luck.


Its forum life. Even on a more mature forum like this you have to expect some 'piss taking'. I often enjoy the banter and it does not really phase me. As I say, it just makes me chuckle. 

I aint going anywhere so people can keep firing all the shit they want at me. We will see what happens 10 weeks after PCT.

----------


## songdog

Jangles guys here are telling you the truth quit thinking because it isn't a pat on the back they are putting you down.This is the cold hard truth bro.You got a good base when people know you lift and train hard you added some weigh to your mid section.A base isn't built in 10 to 12 weeks it's thick muscle built over time and people notice the change the V shape the big traps bigger arms.When you get those you will have a solid base yes you look better but you still got a ways to go before you look like you train.Work hard and listen to wats said here and use it.

----------


## Jangles1

> Jangles guys here are telling you the truth quit thinking because it isn't a pat on the back they are putting you down.This is the cold hard truth bro.You got a good base when people know you lift and train hard you added some weigh to your mid section.A base isn't built in 10 to 12 weeks it's thick muscle built over time and people notice the change the V shape the big traps bigger arms.When you get those you will have a solid base yes you look better but you still got a ways to go before you look like you train.Work hard and listen to wats said here and use it.



Thanks. I will do that.

----------


## Jangles1

Little diet update. 

*
Breakfast / Lunch / Dinner
*

Oats and Milk Porridge 
Turkey Chilli with Black Beans 
Steak, Mash, Mixed Peppers 

*Snacks*


2 x Organic Natural Yogurt 
20 x Cashew Nuts
Cassien Protein Shake with rolled oats and milk.

*
Macros* 


P - 306
C - 381
F - 124

Calories - 3900



Waiting to get some Instant Oats so I can consume more carbs easier. I struggle downing rolled oats in milk, even when blended,

----------


## Berzerk

> Little diet update. 
> 
> *
> Breakfast / Lunch / Dinner
> *
> 
> Oats and Milk Porridge 
> Turkey Chilli with Black Beans 
> Steak, Mash, Mixed Peppers 
> ...




Is this thread serious?

Is this what I can expect here?

----------


## Jerry2020

> Is this thread serious?
> 
> Is this what I can expect here?


Haha pretty sure most people will say youre free to f*** off if you dont think youre getting your moneys worth

----------


## Berzerk

> Haha pretty sure most people will say youre free to f*** off if you dont think youre getting your moneys worth


Goodness. I'm truly sorry to offend. I honestly thought this was a whole troll thread.

My bad.

There are some real lifters here, is what I mean to say. I came here looking for training as and diet tips and routines. I'm just a little taken back by this, that's all.

As this same poster, jangles1, gave some usage tips and training advice to an almost pro caliber football player in another thread, as if he was some type of gym guru.

I'm sorry, but very very out of his realm, no?

----------


## Jerry2020

I must say I had seen that too, had to have a giggle, also saw one where he accused a guy of “half assing his cycle”....

----------


## Jangles1

> I must say I had seen that too, had to have a giggle, also saw one where he accused a guy of “half assing his cycle”....


I gave him sound advice based on hours and hours of research. I also said I have no experience on the compounds suggested. The cycle was a classic cutting cycle.


The dude who half assed his cycle didn’t have a clue. 

I may have started too soon but my approach to the cycle it’self has been through. 

5 blood tests 
hCH
AI 
NACC 


Etc etc etc 

So yeah. He did half ass his cycle and I didn’t. In terms of the actual cycle protocol that is.

----------


## Jangles1

> Goodness. I'm truly sorry to offend. I honestly thought this was a whole troll thread.
> 
> My bad.
> 
> There are some real lifters here, is what I mean to say. I came here looking for training as and diet tips and routines. I'm just a little taken back by this, that's all.
> 
> As this same poster, jangles1, gave some usage tips and training advice to an almost pro caliber football player in another thread, as if he was some type of gym guru.
> 
> I'm sorry, but very very out of his realm, no?



This a a begginer cycle log that’s been a journey and will help others learn. 

If you don’t like it, don’t read it man. 

Just because I’m a begginer doesn’t mean i cannot pass on sound technical advice that’s come from many many hours of research, reading books like William Llewellyn's “ anabolics “

The cycle i suggested came from that book and was specific of the OPs goals. So.......

Preety good fucking advice

Guess you have to be a “gym guru” now days to offer solid advice out of best selling book about AAS.

----------


## Jerry2020

All good mate I wasn’t trying to have a go at you even though I understand it might’ve come across that way. I actually admire the fact you’re still on here, you’ve done and said a couple of silly things but to be honest you’ve copped more than you’ve earned from a few guys acting the fool in this thread

I must say I missed when you went away for a couple of weeks over Xmas, this is the most entertaining thread on here I think. And I have learnt a lot to carry over in my own cycle, whether it be through the mistakes highlighted in this thread or the positives, you learn from both, so I’m thankful for it

----------


## Berzerk

> This a a begginer cycle log that’s been a journey and will help others learn. 
> 
> If you don’t like it, don’t read it man. 
> 
> Just because I’m a begginer doesn’t mean i cannot pass on sound technical advice that’s come from many many hours of research, reading books like William Llewellyn's “ anabolics “
> 
> The cycle i suggested came from that book and was specific of the OPs goals. So.......
> 
> Preety good fucking advice
> ...


Your clueless.

You expect to keep 15 lbs from this cycle? At best your going to keep 5, and I even doubt that. 

See you in 10 weeks

----------


## Jangles1

> Your clueless.
> 
> You expect to keep 15 lbs from this cycle? At best your going to keep 5, and I even doubt that. 
> 
> See you in 10 weeks



5lbs From 30 gained and you think I’m clueless 

See you in 10 weeks indeed.

----------


## Jangles1

> Your clueless.
> 
> You expect to keep 15 lbs from this cycle? At best your going to keep 5, and I even doubt that. 
> 
> See you in 10 weeks



5lbs kept from 30 gained and you think I’m clueless ?


Clearly you’ve been put in your place and have nothing else to say other than an uneducated and outlandish comment. 

 :Nutkick:  

Please give me your almighty knowledge on why I will keep max 5lbs and probably less ?

I can’t wait to hear your concise answer based on the exact science of AAS and the Human Body. 

Il be waiting with bated breath

----------


## Berzerk

> 5lbs kept from 30 gained and you think I’m clueless ?
> 
> 
> Clearly you’ve been put in your place and have nothing else to say other than an uneducated and outlandish comment. 
> 
>  
> 
> Please give me your almighty knowledge on why I will keep max 5lbs and probably less ?
> 
> ...


Well because based on your pics. You put on 25lbs of straight water and glycogen. You show no more separation on your frame at the end than you did in beginning. If you added at least 10 pounds of your 30 in muscle, it would show through your Puffy bloated body.

But you have not, you just became a slightly larger, version of yourself. Lacking tone, definition, mass and strength.

While your diet may have been on point, your training definitely was not, based on your own admittance.

Your supposedly injured, and you haven't honestly in the true sense of it, taken one set to failure.

You need to break down muscle to grow. You basically did aerobics this whole cycle

----------


## Berzerk

Even your ending pics, are not a good base to even start a cycle.

See you in 10, hell see you in 4 weeks. 

Just curious? What are your pr max lifts on deads, squats, bench etc,?

If you can't even handle your body weight in any of those 3 lifts, you sir, have FAILED miserably.

Keep your advice to yourself, don't go giving 225lb pro caliber athletes your copy and pasted "sound advice" 

You have no experience at all. Your not even novice. Focus on you.

----------


## David LoPan

Hey Jangles, wait and see how your PCT goes. That will be the real test. Everything else is speculation. Botton line is that you kept on your cycle, you ate right and went to the gym. Keep that up though PCT and keep working hard. *If AAS has worked for you getting in the gym, changing your lifestyle and making you feel better that is what is important*.  Very few people post up their pictures on here and keep logging their journey. This is a marthon not a sprint. No matter what the outcome you have learned a lot, hit the gym and changed your lifestyle. *You make a personal choice and commintment and you stuck by your word on posting reguardless of what other people say. That is what it takes to be successful in life and in the gym.*

----------


## cousinmuscles

> Even your ending pics, are not a good base to even start a cycle.
> 
> See you in 10, hell see you in 4 weeks. 
> 
> Just curious? What are your pr max lifts on deads, squats, bench etc,?
> 
> If you can't even handle your body weight in any of those 3 lifts, you sir, have FAILED miserably.
> 
> Keep your advice to yourself, don't go giving 225lb pro caliber athletes your copy and pasted "sound advice" 
> ...


A single user is not representative of the forum and if you're looking for info then read the stickies in all the sections. Regarding his lifts, Jangles injured himself incline benching 95lbs (barbell), so there you have it, it's in the thread, as well as people telling him what you did and more.

----------


## cousinmuscles

> Hey Jangles, wait and see how your PCT goes. That will be the real test. Everything else is speculation. Botton line is that you kept on your cycle, you ate right and went to the gym. Keep that up though PCT and keep working hard. *If AAS has worked for you getting in the gym, changing your lifestyle and making you feel better that is what is important*.  Very few people post up their pictures on here and keep logging their journey. This is a marthon not a sprint. No matter what the outcome you have learned a lot, hit the gym and changed your lifestyle. *You make a personal choice and commintment and you stuck by your word on posting reguardless of what other people say. That is what it takes to be successful in life and in the gym.*


Sorry but this is all incorrect. What he does is actually speculative and this thread is a bit scary to watch considering the pics. It's a total gym newbie starting a cycle before they get their gym membership (possibly not the case but sure makes it look like it). It's a path of destruction and the opposite of what one should do to be successful in the gym (edit: and life)

----------


## cousinmuscles

Well that's my opinion only lol. Jangles if you do stay determined and just log what you do and aim to progress you will eventually find the way.

----------


## chanjayd

Great job mate! Although you might not have a good starting point, you clearly seem to know that what you are doing and show incredible work ethics....

Could you pm me your source? I checked iSarms source section but couldnt find a list of approved source..

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Great job mate! Although you might not have a good starting point, you clearly seem to know that what you are doing and show incredible work ethics....
> 
> Could you pm me your source? I checked iSarms source section but couldnt find a list of approved source..


Oh cheeky cheeky :2nono:

----------


## Berzerk

> Great job mate! Although you might not have a good starting point, you clearly seem to know that what you are doing and show incredible work ethics....
> 
> Could you pm me your source? I checked iSarms source section but couldnt find a list of approved source..


No

He knows what he's doing? Lol

----------


## Jangles1

> Even your ending pics, are not a good base to even start a cycle.
> 
> See you in 10, hell see you in 4 weeks. 
> 
> Just curious? What are your pr max lifts on deads, squats, bench etc,?
> 
> If you can't even handle your body weight in any of those 3 lifts, you sir, have FAILED miserably.
> 
> Keep your advice to yourself, don't go giving 225lb pro caliber athletes your copy and pasted "sound advice" 
> ...




I dont Bench anymore. Fucks my shoulders / arm / whatever the fuck ive done....


Weight currently of today is - 90kg

Squat is - 100kg x 8 
Deadlift is 90kg x 12 


One max reps are obviously higher.....

----------


## Jangles1

> No
> 
> He knows what he's doing? Lol


Other than starting light I know exactly what I am doing. Training, Diet, AAS knowledge is sound. I educate myself and learn from my mistakes on a daily basis. 

If you have nothing positive or constructive to say just don't say anything...... Post your journey and lets see what you're achieving. Until then I don't respect a thing you say.

Nothing but a 37 year old keyboard warrior. Hows that working out for you. Sad sad man!

----------


## Jangles1

> Sorry but this is all incorrect. What he does is actually speculative and this thread is a bit scary to watch considering the pics. It's a total gym newbie starting a cycle before they get their gym membership (possibly not the case but sure makes it look like it). It's a path of destruction and the opposite of what one should do to be successful in the gym (edit: and life)




Path of destruction lmao.... Anyone would think I am injecting 3g of Heroin a day... Give it a rest mate..... Dramatic much. 

Ive approached this cycle as safe as anyone could possibly do so. Over $600 in blood tests alone. I have had no sides other than a few spots.

----------


## David LoPan

> Path of destruction lmao.... Anyone would think I am injecting 3g of Heroin a day... Give it a rest mate..... Dramatic much. 
> 
> Ive approached this cycle as safe as anyone could possibly do so. Over $600 in blood tests alone. I have had no sides other than a few spots.


No record drug talk 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

----------


## Berzerk

> I dont Bench anymore. Fucks my shoulders / arm / whatever the fuck ive done....
> 
> 
> Weight currently of today is - 90kg
> 
> Squat is - 100kg x 8 
> Deadlift is 90kg x 12 
> 
> 
> One max reps are obviously higher.....


Post a video of you doing 5 reps of 100kg on squat
And 6 deads at 90kg

Guarantee you can't stand under or pull that weight.

Not a keyboard warrior, just stating what most have already said. But I will drive it home unlike others

People like you are 100% the reason anabolic androgenic steroids have a bad rep

----------


## Berzerk

> No record drug talk 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


I did Nazi that coming....

----------


## Jangles1

> Post a video of you doing 5 reps of 100kg on squat
> And 6 deads at 90kg
> 
> Guarantee you can't stand under or pull that weight.
> 
> Not a keyboard warrior, just stating what most have already said. But I will drive it home unlike others
> 
> People like you are 100% the reason anabolic androgenic steroids have a bad rep




Im not doing that. Not going in the gym and setting up a camera, not to prove someone wrong on a forum. 

No reason to lie. Don't give a single fuck if you do not believe me. The fact you doubt those numbers makes me happy as you do not believe I am doing it lol.


(the squat is on a smith machine btw incase that discredits me somewhat. rather be truthful)

----------


## hollowedzeus

> Im not doing that. Not going in the gym and setting up a camera, not to prove someone wrong on a forum. 
> 
> No reason to lie. Don't give a single fuck if you do not believe me. The fact you doubt those numbers makes me happy as you do not believe I am doing it lol.
> 
> 
> (the squat is on a smith machine btw incase that discredits me somewhat. rather be truthful)


Shame on you. Everyone knows the smith machine is for girls

----------


## David LoPan

> Shame on you. Everyone knows the smith machine is for girls


Hey us coffin dodgers with a history of surgical procedures use that machine. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

----------


## Jangles1

> Shame on you. Everyone knows the smith machine is for girls


TBH you're right. I plan on building a gym in my Garage and wont be shelling out $3000 on a smith machine thats for sure. I did squat without the smith when I had a gym buddy.

I need to get back to the rack rather than the smith. 

I have seen a lot of research saying the smith machine is just as effective though. Like everything in the fitness / bb world, there is always contradicting info..

----------


## ghettoboyd

> TBH you're right. I plan on building a gym in my Garage and wont be shelling out $3000 on a smith machine thats for sure. I did squat without the smith when I had a gym buddy.
> 
> I need to get back to the rack rather than the smith. 
> 
> I have seen a lot of research saying the smith machine is just as effective though. Like everything in the fitness / bb world, there is always contradicting info..


your fine using the smith machine when training alone it alows you to go heavy with some safety...I would like to take a minute to say jangles that you have taken a lot of shit during your journey but you stayed and saw it through... you really showed a lot of class and character throughout...

----------


## Jangles1

> your fine using the smith machine when training alone it alows you to go heavy with some safety...I would like to take a minute to say jangles that you have taken a lot of shit during your journey but you stayed and saw it through... you really showed a lot of class and character throughout...


Thanks man  :Smilie:

----------


## Jangles1

Ok so coming to week 14 and still gaining nicely 


[B]Week 14)

*Pin*

Kinda love doing it now. PIP has fucked me this entire cycyle though. The Prop especially. I would probarly not do Prop again as the pip is so bad it makes me not be able to walk for 3 - 10 days. 

*Gym* 

Smashing it. Really piling on the KG's while focusing on form. Repping 100kg Deadlift (6 reps as of this week)

*Diet* 

Going really good. Ive progressed to 4500 calories a day now. 

*Weight* 

Start - 170lbs
Week 14 - 201lbs

*Sides*

Absolutley nothing. 

*Conclusion*

I will see this to week 16 then PCT as long as I gain next week. As far as deminishing returns go, the weigth is still being added and I am not seeing fat....

*Pics* 


14 week transformation 




Week 7 - start of week 14

----------


## David LoPan

> Ok so coming to week 14 and still gaining nicely 
> 
> 
> [B]Week 14)
> 
> *Pin*
> 
> Kinda love doing it now. PIP has fucked me this entire cycyle though. The Prop especially. I would probarly not do Prop again as the pip is so bad it makes me not be able to walk for 3 - 10 days. 
> 
> ...


Push it hard these next weeks and watch the diet going into PCT. Expect water loss. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

----------


## hollowedzeus

Still got tendonitis pain?

----------


## Jangles1

> Push it hard these next weeks and watch the diet going into PCT. Expect water loss. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



Yes mate. I always go hard atm the gym but these last few weeks ive stepped up weight big time and lifting more than I ever had, depsite nagging injuries. Really just pushing mysef. 

I am curious about PCT, I cant lie, not for my diet, thats going too be fine and I will prob step the calories up to 4750 a day. Its going to be interesting as at 4500 ish calories I should be putting on 2lbs a week (if AAS was not a factor), so its going to funny to see how loss of water yet me growing natrually will play out. 


Crunch time now. If I just drop to 170 again I have to come back here and admit defeat lmao hahahahaha. It wont though, so I am all good.

----------


## Jangles1

> Still got tendonitis pain?




Yep. Both arms have calmed down and I can finally push a good overhead miltary presss again, but incline (30%) pressing is stil not 100%. I am not sure of my TB500 is doing anything, but I am in Week 5 of a 10 week protocol.

----------


## Galpster

BUMP- curious to see how this plays out. Thanks Jangles for staying the course.

----------


## ChasinGains

Props to jangles for continuing after a fair amount of abuse, definate change in body, not so much in chest but im guessing thats due to injurys and not being able to bench, im sitting at 197lbs naturally and around 14%body fat ao definatly could of been done naturally but oh well who really cares, i will get more flame than you jangles when i start a cycle as im just coming up to 23 so dont worry lol

----------


## Jangles1

Sorry for the hold up. Had more important things going on and tbh just wanted to focus on eating and working out.. 

*Week 18* 

*Pin*

All fine

*Gym* 

Great 

*Diet* 

Solid as always (hard to eat 4650 cals day though)

*Weight* 

205lbs

*Sides*

zero 

*PIP*

All good lately


*Conclusion*


I am at week 18 now having done 16 weeks of AAS. I have just added prop for the final 2 weeks with it being a short ester. I will start my PCT at the start of next week. 

Had my MRI scan and turns out ive got a small rotator cuff tear and strained, weak tendons in my shoulder. The Doctor said it should be like steak, but is more like streaky bacon. I am seeing my Pysio next week to start a course to try and repair the damage without surgery or stopping the gym.

I am very happy with my AAS journey and have learnt a lot. 100 % do not regret this journey and its made a great change in my self confidence and how I feel. Should I have put on 15/20lbs naturally over 3 years without AAS, maybe, but with my injury and body issues, I am glad I did this!!

Judge away !


PICS - 

*170 - 205lbs*

----------


## xGarlicx

Jangles man, I've been reading along and followed up until now. About to start my first cycle as well, although I have a different but similar starting point. I was really curious to see how your journey would go. I'm really happy you stuck with it and followed good advice when it came along and stuck to your guns when getting trolled. 

Yeah, you could get to where you are natty, but honestly most people never will. I can't believe even with all the PIP and injuries you pushed through and I can tell it's paid off. You're actually looking like you lift now man, so grats! Keep it going!

----------


## Jangles1

> Jangles man, I've been reading along and followed up until now. About to start my first cycle as well, although I have a different but similar starting point. I was really curious to see how your journey would go. I'm really happy you stuck with it and followed good advice when it came along and stuck to your guns when getting trolled. 
> 
> Yeah, you could get to where you are natty, but honestly most people never will. I can't believe even with all the PIP and injuries you pushed through and I can tell it's paid off. You're actually looking like you lift now man, so grats! Keep it going!


Thanks mate. I am a determined mother fucker. 

Coming up to the end of week 3 of my PCT. Feeling great. No major strength loss although i've gone down to 191lsb today (9 drop so far)

Mood and sex drive great. Nothing negative at all tbh. 


Will keep updating !

----------


## DocToxin8

> Sorry for the hold up. Had more important things going on and tbh just wanted to focus on eating and working out.. 
> 
> *Week 18* 
> 
> *Pin*
> 
> All fine
> 
> *Gym* 
> ...


Ok, congrats Jangles but I just have to chime in for anyone else reading this thread;

It is NOT advisable to start AAS with such a starting point. 
It’s not just a matter of fact that these gains could have been made natty,
but it’s also a concern about tendon and ligaments. 
You should generally have 3 years at least if training, but let’s dial that down to 1 year of SERIOUS, dedicated training at the very least, before you start AAS. 
This will make it less likely that you damage tendons and joints during the cycle. This might seem like just; ahh, fuck, tendons right?!
But it actually is important,
if you damage an elbow or a shoulder enough you’ll have to stop training for growth completely in worst case and just do physio for 6mo to a year. 
And that is gonna cost you from half a year to one year just spending time on an injury, which if you don’t do correct can cause you even more time. 

Not to mention risks to your HPTA and such, but just let’s ignore all that for now and say that you’re willing to juice for the rest of your life;
Then you want to optimize for that to be possible. 
And tendons is a big thing here. 
It’s also a matter of just getting used to the bodybuilding life style. This is harder than many think, and doesn’t happen automatically when you start juicing. 

My point is that this practice is very risky and i know several who have attempted it, only to drop out of training completely due to injuries. 

So no flak to you Jangles, I hope you’re satisfied and wish you the best. 
I just don’t want this to be an example for someone else without informing of the danger. 
And I can say that I don’t overestimate if I say that 50% of the guys I know who start juicing with a bad base, end up hurting themselves to the point where they quit lifting. 
And when they quit lifting the usually won’t start again, since they now know that juice fucked them up, and that’s not a carrot to entice them anymore. 

So please, anyone seeing this, think it through. 

And again, I hope you’re bigger and better now Jangles and are one of the exceptions that can handle this and get lucky.

----------


## Jangles1

> Ok, congrats Jangles but I just have to chime in for anyone else reading this thread;
> 
> It is NOT advisable to start AAS with such a starting point. 
> It’s not just a matter of fact that these gains could have been made natty,
> but it’s also a concern about tendon and ligaments. 
> You should generally have 3 years at least if training, but let’s dial that down to 1 year of SERIOUS, dedicated training at the very least, before you start AAS. 
> This will make it less likely that you damage tendons and joints during the cycle. This might seem like just; ahh, fuck, tendons right?!
> But it actually is important,
> if you damage an elbow or a shoulder enough you’ll have to stop training for growth completely in worst case and just do physio for 6mo to a year. 
> ...




Thanks for such a great reply. You're right in everything you say. I 100% suggest doing it the way you did and advise. I Would be a fool to argue otherwise. I did have my reasons, but thats by the by. 

UPDATE for anyone who cares. 

I am now 4 weeks into PCT. Hardly any strength loss, 190lbs still (meaning I've kept 20lbs as of now) and feel great. Deadlifting 140kg x 3, Squatting 100kg x 8 (free weight, onto a bench though)

A lot of people made out that my gains would vanish and that my body would shut down from thus cycle due to no base. What a load of shit! 

There was a *LOT* of scare mongering in this thread and unless magically I wake up in the next 2 weeks of PCT and am 170, I've proved a LOT of people wrong!

Maybe its my diet and dedication in the gym?? Maybe the AAS did nothing and I just grew naturally, explaining why I've not lost any size or strength??? I don't know, but I've kept all my size added and feel great.... Time will tell if I am proved wrong, but at this point I cant see how I would loose the muscle added with the lifestyle choices I am making !

----------


## hollowedzeus

I dont want to come across nasty or anything but the point i think was being made is that you still look very very natural. You are nowhere near the stage where people dont have to ask if you go to the gym.

I dont know that youll lose the way you look at all. Im not really sure where that 30lbs went either.

But if youre happy thats all that matters. Putting it on the thread fully opened yourself to critique and yougot it good.

I woupd have said dont do it but very big props for taking it all on the chin and carrying on. 

Doesnt make it a good idea... to any noobs wanting to do the same thing as jangles

----------


## Jangles1

> I dont want to come across nasty or anything but the point i think was being made is that you still look very very natural. You are nowhere near the stage where people dont have to ask if you go to the gym.
> 
> I dont know that youll lose the way you look at all. Im not really sure where that 30lbs went either.
> 
> But if youre happy thats all that matters. Putting it on the thread fully opened yourself to critique and yougot it good.
> 
> I woupd have said dont do it but very big props for taking it all on the chin and carrying on. 
> 
> Doesnt make it a good idea... to any noobs wanting to do the same thing as jangles



I get that mate  :Smilie: 

But that doesnt negate the fact everything people said would happen due to starting without a propper base has not happened. 

That’s my only point here.


If you’re new to AAS and reading this, absolutely be patient and do a solid year or 2 building a base while throughly researching, then if you really want to, do a cycle. It can only yield better results if you build a better base than i did. 

The main thing I’ve learnt is that I could have achieved the same goals without aas, albeit in a longer time period. Being on a cycle i do think motivated my beyond belief, and i do not regret it at all. I would change a few things if i could though. 

I think it’s funny everyone says “you look no different”. It’s funny because i cannot begin to describe the amount of comments i get from people every time i go out. There is a huge huge difference. Huge!

Maybe pics don’t translate well, but that’s just fact. No reason to lie. Say what you want about me but i’ve being transparent from day 1  :Smilie: 

It is what it is and all you can do is learn from your mistakes and move forward. 

I’m healthy and kept (for now) all gains. Post cycle Bloods will be done after my PCT and il report back.

----------


## Obs

> I get that mate 
> 
> *But that doesnt negate the fact everything people said would happen due to starting without a propper base has not happened.* 
> 
> That’s my only point here.
> 
> 
> If you’re new to AAS and reading this, absolutely be patient and do a solid year or 2 building a base while throughly researching, then if you really want to, do a cycle. It can only yield better results if you build a better base than i did. 
> 
> ...


Give it time for it to have been over a while.

You said a cycle or two....

You will either, cycle the rest of your life/trt, or you will lose everything you have gained. 

This is what you don't seem to get...
It takes time to lose. Two months is not time. Two months is not even long enough to have started another cycle. 


Give it a year and you will be back to square one. Granted you were still developing. 
Most males dont fill in until 22-25.

Its not a manliness issue or a reflection of you. It is physics.

It took supplements to achieve.
Remove the supplements and....

Not that complicated.

----------


## Couchlockd

can we have a list of your max lifts?

----------


## AdroRomano

I'm on the EXACT same thing, first time, test only , 3 weeks in . Looks like you've done ur research, everything's on point . Now just get a STRICT diet in u

----------


## Couchlockd

> I'm on the EXACT same thing, first time, test only , 3 weeks in . Looks like you've done ur research, everything's on point . Now just get a STRICT diet in u


really done his research?

he went from,a 50 lb barbell bench press to a 90 lb bench press.

for comparison I'm 30 lbs lighter and shorter and incline press 90 lb dumbbells for sets of 12

----------


## Jangles1

> Give it time for it to have been over a while.
> 
> You said a cycle or two....
> 
> You will either, cycle the rest of your life/trt, or you will lose everything you have gained. 
> 
> This is what you don't seem to get...
> It takes time to lose. Two months is not time. Two months is not even long enough to have started another cycle. 
> 
> ...



I’m not saying you’re wrong as I can’t see into the future, but say I never did a cycle again, carried on lifting and eating a 500 surplus, you still think in one years time i’d be back to square one?

How is that physically possible? I would be adding 6-12 a year for the first year or so of natural bulking, so how i would end up back at square one I just do not get. 

Common sense would suggest I can build on what i’ve achieved with this first cycle. 

As i say, not saying you’re wrong, simply challenging with a fair assumption.

I am not here to argue. Can’t be fucked with the negativity  :Smilie:

----------


## Jangles1

> I'm on the EXACT same thing, first time, test only , 3 weeks in . Looks like you've done ur research, everything's on point . Now just get a STRICT diet in u



Diet is brilliant. 4500 clean cals every single day!!

Good luck with your journey  :Smilie:

----------


## Jangles1

> Give it time for it to have been over a while.
> 
> You said a cycle or two....
> 
> You will either, cycle the rest of your life/trt, or you will lose everything you have gained. 
> 
> This is what you don't seem to get...
> It takes time to lose. Two months is not time. Two months is not even long enough to have started another cycle. 
> 
> ...



I’m not saying you’re wrong as I can’t see into the future, but say I never did a cycle again, carried on lifting and eating a 500 surplus, you still think in one years time i’d be back to square one?

How is that physically possible? I would be adding 6-12 a year for the first year or so of natural bulking, so how i would end up back at square one I just do not get. 

Common sense would suggest I can build on what i’ve achieved with this first cycle. 

As i say, not saying you’re wrong, simply challenging with a fair assumption.

I am not here to argue. Can’t be fucked with the negativity  :Smilie:

----------


## Couchlockd

because you now damaged HPTA, and if you couldn't do it with pre cycle levels of natural hormones, tour not going to keep super physiological gains when your HPTA doesn't come back to even its pre cycle levels

your going to eat with less test, more cortisol, and estrogen. and your surplus is going to add fat.

how bout a current pic with today's date to show us your holding your "gains"?

dude you look like a chemo patient with osteroperosis

----------


## Jangles1

> because you now damaged HPTA, and if you couldn't do it with pre cycle levels of natural hormones, tour not going to keep super physiological gains when your HPTA doesn't come back to even its pre cycle levels
> 
> your going to eat with less test, more cortisol, and estrogen. and your surplus is going to add fat.
> 
> how bout a current pic with today's date to show us your holding your "gains"?
> 
> dude you look like a chemo patient with osteroperosis



Good facts ruined by an insult that’s not even accurate. 

You’re nothing more than a forum troll with AAS knowledge. 

I don’t have to prove anything to you. Suck a dick. 

Just left the gym but I will post a few pics at the end of my 6 week PCT

----------


## Couchlockd

> Good facts ruined by an insult that’s not even accurate. 
> 
> You’re nothing more than a forum troll with AAS knowledge. 
> 
> I don’t have to prove anything to you. Suck a dick. 
> 
> Just left the gym but I will post a few pics at the end of my 6 week PCT


oh easy now. 

that's right there says you are seeing gains disappear, and all our comments are running through your head like a black out drunk starting to remember the night before. and on top of pct blues its eating you up inside.

try some latuda.  :Aachill: 

Also, you ordered your pharmacom from 101xxxxxxxpharma . com they are not an,official reseller anymore. they seem because they've been buying faked pharmacom from a 3rd party reseller them selves.

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## Jangles1

> oh easy now. 
> 
> that's right there says you are seeing gains disappear, and all our comments are running through your head like a black out drunk starting to remember the night before. and on top of pct blues its eating you up inside.
> 
> try some latuda.



youre wrong mate. check back in a few weeks.

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## Obs

> I’m not saying you’re wrong as I can’t see into the future, but say I never did a cycle again, carried on lifting and eating a 500 surplus, you still think in one years time i’d be back to square one?
> 
> How is that physically possible? I would be adding 6-12 a year for the first year or so of natural bulking, so how i would end up back at square one I just do not get. 
> 
> Common sense would suggest I can build on what i’ve achieved with this first cycle. 
> 
> As i say, not saying you’re wrong, simply challenging with a fair assumption.
> 
> I am not here to argue. Can’t be fucked with the negativity


Indeed.
Its more complicated than that. Not here to argue.

Its a struggle from hell. It also gets worse rebounding after a cycle with age from my experiences. Everything you are doing now is a cinch but you will see what I mean in a few months.

Anabolic steroids aren't addictive says a guy without a soul that never ran a cycle.

Its the darkside. Once you cross into it you don't just leave. I know because I had the gun barrel in my mouth when I watched it all go. 

Have you ever seen an elite bodybuilder 6 months off AAS? 

Don't be too arrogant man. You are speaking to guys that have done this since before you were born.

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## Couchlockd

Attachment 172259
Attachment 172260
Attachment 172261
Attachment 172262

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## Jangles1

> Attachment 172259
> Attachment 172260
> Attachment 172261
> Attachment 172262


Thats all well and good (mad pics) but they obviously stoped dead their training and diet. Thats not happening for me.

If everyone on this forum stopped training and diet, they would loose their body, AAS or not.

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## Jangles1

> Indeed.
> Its more complicated than that. Not here to argue.
> 
> Its a struggle from hell. It also gets worse rebounding after a cycle with age from my experiences. Everything you are doing now is a cinch but you will see what I mean in a few months.
> 
> Anabolic steroids aren't addictive says a guy without a soul that never ran a cycle.
> 
> Its the darkside. Once you cross into it you don't just leave. I know because I had the gun barrel in my mouth when I watched it all go. 
> 
> ...



Guess il order my TRT meds haha....

Im gona do another cycle and see how I get on. Id like to say I will build from that naturally as I should be the size I want after that (no desire at all to be jacked). But most likely il want to do another and another. Not point kidding myself.

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## Couchlockd

you realize who,those guys are,

one is Kevin levrone
and flex wheeler.

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## Jangles1

> you realize who,those guys are,
> 
> one is Kevin levrone
> and flex wheeler.



Yes. Big timers. Prob on an insane amount of gear and were monsters. Cool pics but they play no real relevance in my situation (although I get your point)  :Smilie:

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## Obs

> Thats all well and good (mad pics) but they obviously stoped dead their training and diet. Thats not happening for me.
> 
> If everyone on this forum stopped training and diet, they would loose their body, AAS or not.


Your right they probably stopped everything. Its much harder to stay motivated when you are doing everything right and losing mass. It fucks with you baaaaad. Its a lot harder than having made a good base before starting. Again though even with a fantastic base after time you will lose the gains.

The point is if you had trained natty you keep all that as long as you keep training and continue the diet. Not so with AAS. Its apples to oranges. AAS makes your muscles do things your body is not capable of without them. Its like climbing a ladder and saying i got this high and taking away the ladder...
The miniscule amount of gains you will keep a year off AAS you could have acquired naturally withou all the bullshit.

If nothing else maybe everyone trying to explain with you being defensive will give you enough fire and sand to prove them wrong as best you can. 

Its a fucked up game, I wish it was as you think it is but you will see. Good luck.
Personally I would keep on rocking. Cycle smart and take a break and cycle again. Its not a bad life. Trt is waiting for pretty much anyone with a brain that cycles.

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## Obs

> Yes. Big timers. Prob on an insane amount of gear and were monsters. Cool pics but they play no real relevance in my situation (although I get your point)


Btw... The only issue I ever had on your log was that you thought you could just run a cycle or two and get where you wanted, then be gtg.

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## marcus300

Well done on documenting your progress, its not an easy thing to do putting yourself out there. I do have a lot to say but most have more or less said it.

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## Wyatt 88

Just finish this article from front to back very entertaining at the least. Probably the most interesting thing to me was how people overload on protein. I'm totally guilty of it but I've never liked carbs but I do understand the value of them and raw fruits and vegetables but I guess I just comes with knowledge perseverance

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## hammerheart

> Just finish this article from front to back very entertaining at the least. Probably the most interesting thing to me was how people overload on protein. I'm totally guilty of it but I've never liked carbs but I do understand the value of them and raw fruits and vegetables but I guess I just comes with knowledge perseverance


No point wasting protein for energy when there's carbs available, that's my take.

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## levijoseph

Just read through most of this thread, can we get an update from OP?

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## Couchlockd

> Just read through most of this thread, can we get an update from OP?


Lol

He won't show us, cuzz we were right.

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## Jangles1

> Lol
> 
> He won't show us, cuzz we were right.





Check the main thread

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## Couchlockd

> Check the main thread


How bout now, just curious, did you hold on to those gainz?

Not being a dick, just curious as you were 100% sure you'd hold all weight and then some. You should share with us how you've done it.

We are all brother's here.

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## Jangles1

With all due respect... I have had nothing but shit from day 1. Accusations of lying and generally treated like a moron myself. Borderline bullying due to having a self belief that didn't fall in line with most of the forums views.

As nice and helpful as your charts and help were in the other post, none of you are my brothers....I came here for one reason only, to prove you all wrong, like I knew in my mind and heart I would.

--

To all the newbies reading this. It is advised to get to a decent size before AAS, it can only help, but if like me you do not want to for your OWN good reason (injury setbacks), not laziness, do not worry about it. If you stick to your training and diet, you will keep your gains. I did anyhow.

--

See you again in 8-10 months !!

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## Couchlockd

> I have had nothing but shit from day 1...No offence, and arnica as your charts and help were, none of you are my brothers....I came here to prove you all wrong, like I knew in my mind and heart I would....


Sir, in case you have not known, Or have been made aware of, this place has had a fresh start 

We get along and accept different views now, with no trolling or name calling 

Since you were gone for a few months. That last post is ok.

But let's keep it friendly here , ok?

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## Capebuffalo

> Sir, in case you have not known, Or have been made aware of, this place has had a fresh start 
> 
> We get along and accept different views now, with no trolling or name calling 
> 
> Since you were gone for a few months. That last post is ok.
> 
> But let's keep it friendly here , ok?



Well said Couch.

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## GearHeaded

hey Jangles,, pretty sure I didn't care wither you had a good base to start with or not. Other guys were saying it was a 'have to' , I said you were a grown ass man and can take whatever you choose to and that no doubt AAS use was going to help you reach your goals not harm you.
Then via PM helped you out with quite a few protocols, and when you found out your Test was severely under dosed advised you to go ahead and start taking the T-bol you had attained while you start looking for a new source.

just saying. this forum has been some help to you in at least some ways, its not all negative my man

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## BG

> hey Jangles,, pretty sure I didn't care wither you had a good base to start with or not. Other guys were saying it was a 'have to' , I said you were a grown ass man and can take whatever you choose to and that no doubt AAS use was going to help you reach your goals not harm you.
> Then via PM helped you out with quite a few protocols, and when you found out your Test was severely under dosed advised you to go ahead and start taking the T-bol you had attained while you start looking for a new source.
> 
> just saying. this forum has been some help to you in at least some ways, its not all negative my man


Well said.

Jangles just chill a little, stick around and you will see things are turning around here.......for the better.

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## Jangles1

> hey Jangles,, pretty sure I didn't care wither you had a good base to start with or not. Other guys were saying it was a 'have to' , I said you were a grown ass man and can take whatever you choose to and that no doubt AAS use was going to help you reach your goals not harm you.
> Then via PM helped you out with quite a few protocols, and when you found out your Test was severely under dosed advised you to go ahead and start taking the T-bol you had attained while you start looking for a new source.
> 
> just saying. this forum has been some help to you in at least some ways, its not all negative my man




You helped me no end. Thank you

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## Jangles1

> Sir, in case you have not known, Or have been made aware of, this place has had a fresh start 
> 
> We get along and accept different views now, with no trolling or name calling 
> 
> Since you were gone for a few months. That last post is ok.
> 
> But let's keep it friendly here , ok?



Hmmm ok. Fair play. I have to admit I expected a huge backlash and did not get it, which is great. It does seem things are much more positive.

What actually happened to promote this fresh start?

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## Jangles1

> Well said.
> 
> Jangles just chill a little, stick around and you will see things are turning around here.......for the better.




I am chilled for sure. I was defensive before due to the hostile reception I got, but that seems to have gone.

Thank you for your advice.

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## ChasinGains

> I am chilled for sure. I was defensive before due to the hostile reception I got, but that seems to have gone.
> 
> Thank you for your advice.


Any pics bro of what your looking like post cycle? Been dying to see these since you started thread

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## Capebuffalo

> Any pics bro of what your looking like post cycle? Been dying to see these since you started thread


https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ke-i-knew.html

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## Zb3

No offence but you dont look like youve lifted a day in your life (both before and after cycle). You have no business doing steroids . Actually get some
Proper nutrition and lifting behind you first

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## i_SLAM_cougars

> No offence but you don’t look like you’ve lifted a day in your life (both before and after cycle). You have no business doing steroids . Actually get some
> Proper nutrition and lifting behind you first


The last reply to this thread was 9 months ago. Why bump it?

----------

