# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Iranian President claims 9/11 a lie...

## ModelInProgress

(from Yahoo)

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press Writer  Sat Mar 6, 1:50 pm ET
TEHRAN, Iran  Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Saturday called the official version of the Sept. 11 attacks a "big lie" used by the U.S. as an excuse for the war on terror, state media reported.

Ahmadinejad's comments, made during an address to Intelligence Ministry staff, come amid escalating tensions between the West and Tehran over its disputed nuclear program. They show that Iran has no intention of toning itself down even with tighter sanctions looming because of its refusal to halt uranium enrichment.

"September 11 was a big lie and a pretext for the war on terror and a prelude to invading Afghanistan," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying by state TV. He called the attacks a "complicated intelligence scenario and act."

The Iranian president has questioned the official U.S. version of the Sept. 11 attacks before, but this is the first time he ventured to label it a "big lie."

In 2007, New York officials rejected Ahmadinejad's request to visit the World Trade Center site while he was in the city for a U.N. meeting. The president also sparked an uproar when he said during a lecture in New York that the causes and conditions that led to the attacks, as well as who orchestrated them, still need to be examined.

At the time, he also told Iranian state TV the attacks were "a result of mismanaging and inhumane managing of the world by the U.S," and that Washington was using Sept. 11 as an excuse to attack others.

He has also questioned the Sept. 11 death toll of around 3,000, claiming the Americans never published the victims' names.

On the 2007 anniversary of the attacks, the names of 2,750 victims killed in New York were read aloud at a memorial ceremony.


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## stevey_6t9

man i hate that fuk head, i wish we cud blow him up to.

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## ModelInProgress

Just leave him in a locked room with the families of those killed in 9/11 and the families of soldiers who died in the war that followed...it would be alot cheaper.

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## eliteforce

...but isn't it strange that prior to the 9/11 attacks, police in the Philippines had stumbled upon and arrested a group of muslim militants that were planning just that type of attack..the idea was to hijack planes, force there way into the cockpit and crash the planes! The American federal authorities were aware that suicidal attackers may use this tactic. Also one of the jumbo-jet flight schools that was teaching the actual 9/11 kamakazie pilots warned the feds that he thought these guys were suspicious-because they wanted to learn how to take-off and fly but told them they "didn't need to know how to land the plane" .. the flight school warned the feds that a jumbo-jet "could be used as a bomb" Also the actor James Woods flew with some of the hijackers in first class while they were casing the plane-during one of their 'dry-runs' even he thought they were acting suspicious-he asked to speak to the pilot and warned him that these guys might hijack the plane, the pilot gave him a complaint form to fill out. 

So why did the federal aviation authorities simply issue a heads up to all the pilots:
If there are violent people in the plane, lock the cockpit doors and land as soon as possible, as it is becoming obvious that todays hijackers probably won't demand to land the plane in cuba or beirut like they did in the 70's, they will just crash the plane, so assume that and just get the plane down asap. 

With all this information the feds did nothing, there was no change in the in flight rules and procedures that would have at least kept the kamikazie pilots out of the cockpit, in all 4 hijaakings the pilots opened the doors voluntarily- which was the procedure prior to 9/11/01 and despite the repeated warnings was not changed until 9/12..

All of this sounds very suspicious, since when are American federal authorities _that_ incompetent, they can bust the most sophesticated crime syndicates in the world but not this, and all this happening at a time of increased tensions in the middle-east when there should have been extra vigilance.

There would have never been enough public support for 'vietnam' type wars of occupation in iraq and afghanistan had the hijaakers simply forced the planes down and had a hostage situation, or if they only managed to crash one or two of them in an empty rural area, only a massive pearl harbor type disaster would create the necessary public support, this hijaaking conspiracy needed to go perfectly-and it did.

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## Nooomoto

The Holocaust was a lie, too... 

These people are ridiculous, and all we do is validate them and give them a forum to spew the garbage they preach.

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## Kratos

> ...but isn't it strange that prior to the 9/11 attacks, police in the Philippines had stumbled upon and arrested a group of muslim militants that were planning just that type of attack..
> 
> *Provide a link to that story please. And further explaination of why it was a warning sign. Also, if there was another attack being planned crashing jet liners, what you're saying is they stopped it...so why would you assume there is another plot?*
> 
> Also one of the jumbo-jet flight schools that was teaching the actual 9/11 kamakazie pilots warned the feds that he thought these guys were suspicious-because they wanted to learn how to take-off and fly but told them they "didn't need to know how to land the plane"
> 
> 
> *August 13-15, 2001: Zacarias Moussaoui trains at the Pan Am International Flight School in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where he pays $8,300 ($1500 by credit card and the remainder in cash) to use a Boeing 474 Model 400 aircraft simulator. After just one day of training most of the staff is suspicious that he's a terrorist. They discuss "how much fuel [is] on board a 747-400 and how much damage that could cause if it hit[s] anything." They call the FBI with their concerns later that day. [New York Times, 2/8/02, Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] They are suspicious because:
> 1) In contrast to all the other students at this high-level flight school, he has no aviation background, little previous training and no pilot's license. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02]
> ...


Wow, I mean just wow.

What did we gain in Iraq and Afghanistan...just curious since it was so important to us to go there? What was responsible for the conspiracy since it was all of a couple weeks into bush's presidency? Who is they?

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## FranciscoG

Is there anything radical that this guy has not said?

The terrible thing is that I believe he believes 100% of what comes out of his mouth.

There was an article about the guy he is supposed to be a ¨12er¨ a version of Shia Islam that believes that the ned of the world is coming and the 12th Imam will return.

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## MaNiCC

Its not going to be long before troops head for iran

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## Kratos

> Is there anything radical that this guy has not said?
> 
> The terrible thing is that I believe he believes 100% of what comes out of his mouth.
> 
> .


The terrible thing I believe is that he won 62% of the popular vote. That the number of people who share these fundamentalist views is huge.

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## Kratos

> Its not going to be long before troops head for iran


I hope that never happens. There is nothing to gain.

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## FranciscoG

> The terrible thing I believe is that he won 62% of the popular vote. That the number of people who share these fundamentalist views is huge.


And it is world wide, Hizbollah is not just a terrorist group but also a political party that holds power in Lebanon.

In southern Iraq many hotels tailor to Iranians by having Farsi speakers.

On little country of 80 million people has a lot of power.

Last week they tested thier own cruise missiles and the month before released pics of an f-18 looking plane they built.

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## Kratos

> Last week they tested thier own cruise missiles and the month before released pics of an f-18 looking plane they built.


I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's probably not any more capable than a cannoe with wings. They don't have the facilities to develop such an aircraft. They don't have a weapons or electronics system to equip it with. 

Likely an old F-5 or F/14 airframe we sold them...then they glued a body kit on.

An f-22 would destroy this pos in seconds.
We don't need to be in these wars in the middle east and iran is not a direct threat.

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## FranciscoG

> I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's probably not any more capable than a cannoe with wings. They don't have the facilities to develop such an aircraft. They don't have a weapons or electronics system to equip it with. 
> 
> Likely an old F-5 or F/14 airframe we sold them...then they glued a body kit on.
> 
> An f-22 would destroy this pos in seconds.
> We don't need to be in these wars in the middle east and iran is not a direct threat.


I believe that under estimating one´s adversary is never a good measure.

They actually do have extensive weapons facilities. They even launch thier own satelites. They reserse engineered Abrams tanks and most russian missiles. There is a version of the Apache that was built a few years ago. They have developed many weapons systems.

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## Kratos

they'd be just as well prepared for a war with the United States if they were mass producing tri-cycles and big-wheels to ride into battle on.

nuclear is the only scary thing they could develop in Iran and that isn't too far off

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## eliteforce

The Philippines plan was reported in the news prior to 9/11, i remember hearing the news item myself prior to 9/11

http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/Bojinka.shtml

the doors of the 4 hijaaked jets were not kicked in, keep in mind that the only weapon the hijaakers had were box-cutter knives-the doors on the planes were not that weak, it would have taken them a while before they were able to get in and by then passengers could have stopped them, on the 4th hijaaked plane, the hijaakers locked themselves into the cockpit after they had taken control of the aircraft, once the passengers learned about the plot from phone calls-they did bust their way thru but it took a group of men using fire extinguishers and whatever else they could find to bust the door down; and it took a while. it only takes less than 30minutes for a pilot to find the nearest airfield and get the plane down.

and nothing was gained by invading iraq and afghanistan, unless your a defence contractor or haliburton .. the war industry in the US wants to have a war to fight-its good for their business.. the point is that the 9/11 attacks generated enough public support or at least an excuse for the US to get involved in the kind of warfare that is unpopular with the public .. the whole ridiculous notion that " we have to fight them there in order to prevent an attack here " this bogus logic is still used by Obama to justify the latest round of useless fighting in afghanistan.

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## Kratos

yeah, like I said, you're crazy
they arrested some dude in 1995
he wasn't even talking about domestic aircraft
and that's a conspiracy to let terrorism happen?

How are you the one person in the world that knows exactly what events transpired on flight 93? 

The flight recorder goes something like this

Near the end of the recording, as the plane is pitching up and down wildly and descending fast, there are sounds of the attempted takeover by rebellious passengers. "They want to get in here," a hijacker says in Arabic. "Hold, hold from the inside. Hold from the inside. Hold."

A minute or so later, a hijacker says in Arabic, "When they all come, we finish it off."

"In the cockpit," a passenger says. "If we don't, we'll die."

As some of the passengers are trying to break into the cockpit, the chant "Allah is the greatest!" is uttered nine times in Arabic. Moments later, the jet crashed, with such force that there was little left but ashes.

You're saying it takes more then 30 min to break down the door...that's crazy talk
idk if they even got into the cockpit, or how long they were trying...but there is no evidence it would take 30 min or any tools not in reach.


So the US goes to war at the request of our defense contractors...that's brilliant. And for all the love of halliburton somehow their connections didn't help them avoid being hit with 4 billion in damages for asbestos and financial misforture.

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## Kratos

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in328597.shtml

"There are vulnerabilities in the system put in place involving a single bar across the (cockpit) door," he said. "Maybe they could put in additional bars." 

this guy got through the reinforced cockpit door post 9/11
they were very very weak prior to 0/11 and designed to be so

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## thegodfather

Why does anyone care what Ahdmedinjad says? So what he thinks 9/11 was a lie? In what way does the affect anyone in the world? He doesn't believe the Holocaust happened either, among many of his ridiculous beliefs. If someone could explain to me how this is at all news worthy, I'd like to know. 

Iran poses absolutely no threat to the national security of the mainland United States. They do not have the ability to strike the United States, and even our own CIA estimates that the earliest they would be able to develop a nuclear weapon at at least 5 years. Even so, they are a sovereign nation and it is their prerogative if they want to seek such a weapon. Where in the Constitution does it give us the authority to tell other sovereign nations what they can and cannot possess? Iran is simply trying to do what it's neighbor Israel has done, strengthen its national defense.

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## stevey_6t9

someone get RANA to shoot that fukin irani durka durka already

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## BJJ

> (from Yahoo)
> 
> By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press Writer  Sat Mar 6, 1:50 pm ET
> TEHRAN, Iran  Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Saturday called the official version of the Sept. 11 attacks a "big lie" used by the U.S. as an excuse for the war on terror, state media reported.
> 
> Ahmadinejad's comments, made during an address to Intelligence Ministry staff, come amid escalating tensions between the West and Tehran over its disputed nuclear program. They show that Iran has no intention of toning itself down even with tighter sanctions looming because of its refusal to halt uranium enrichment.
> 
> "*September 11 was* a big lie and a pretext for the war on terror and a prelude to invading Afghanistan," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying by state TV. He called the attacks *a "complicated intelligence scenario and act*."
> 
> ...


Could not agree more with the bold.

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## Kratos

> I believe that under estimating one´s adversary is never a good measure.
> 
> They actually do have extensive weapons facilities. They even launch thier own satelites. They reserse engineered Abrams tanks and most russian missiles. There is a version of the Apache that was built a few years ago. They have developed many weapons systems.


Here's some info on the f/18 iran claims to be building...

the general consensus among more informed observers is that Iran's new fighter is a modified F-5E Tiger II fighter. the F-5E was an early 1970s era low-cost export fighter update of the 1960s-era F-5A fighter/ T-38 supersonic trainer, and it proved very popular with US allies. While Northrop Grumman's F-5 page doesn't mention Iran as an F-5 customer, the Shah's air force most certainly was.

Twin tails, wings mounted above the intakes with the addition of leading edge strakes, and new avionics would appear to be the major modifications. The reports were careful not to tout new engines or the ability to fire medium-range missiles.


refurbishing one of their old f-5's is not too impressive...it's nothing but a propaganda plane. Twin tails on a 40 year old plane and trying to pass it off as new technology isn't going to do them any good.

A helicopter is the most worthless weapon known to man unless you have air superiority. A tank isn't much better. Their navy is non existant.

They would break us in occupation, just like Iraq is doing, not with their conventional military.

Here is a pic of their "new" plane side by side with an f-5. They have 40-50 old f-5's they bought in the 70's. Not sure how many they are planning on refurbishing...but a big problem is they don't maintain their aircraft in iran and they fall out of the sky.

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## FranciscoG

^^ Link?

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## BgMc31

This guy's a nut and he says all this crap for shock value. Sorta like Rush Limbaugh! HAHAHAHAHA!!! Joke fellas...take it easy. Anyway, he knows what to say just to irritate us, but he will never go to the point to provoke military action from the US. The guys is a clown, plain and simple!

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## Kratos

> ^^ Link?


http://op-for.com/2006/09/irans_new_fighter.html

he's another pic so you can compare the f-5 to the "new and advanced *******" aircraft. LMFAO at the F-4 phantom in the backgroud, that's a sweet peice of technology. A 50 year old plane, a forty year old plane, and the pride of iran...a 40 year old plane with two tail fins.

now if only we can master the technology of duct taping tails on our old fighters, we'll have a chance.

If the mullahs say it's a new plane who's gonna argue?

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## Flagg

> This guy's a nut and he says all this crap for shock value. Sorta like Rush Limbaugh! HAHAHAHAHA!!! Joke fellas...take it easy. Anyway, he knows what to say just to irritate us, but he will never go to the point to provoke military action from the US. The guys is a clown, plain and simple!


This.

What doesn't Mhamoud say to whip up the masses, distracting them from the economic mess that Iran is?

He's the troll of the political world and to be honest he's good at what he does (that is, saying something to get a reaction). 

And of course we'll go to war with Iran in the near future. Israel will demand it.

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## Kratos

> Why does anyone care what Ahdmedinjad says? So what he thinks 9/11 was a lie? In what way does the affect anyone in the world? He doesn't believe the Holocaust happened either, among many of his ridiculous beliefs. If someone could explain to me how this is at all news worthy, I'd like to know. 
> 
> Iran poses absolutely no threat to the national security of the mainland United States. They do not have the ability to strike the United States, and even our own CIA estimates that the earliest they would be able to develop a nuclear weapon at at least 5 years. Even so, they are a sovereign nation and it is their prerogative if they want to seek such a weapon. Where in the Constitution does it give us the authority to tell other sovereign nations what they can and cannot possess? Iran is simply trying to do what it's neighbor Israel has done, strengthen its national defense.



The fear for me is, the general opinion among experts is that iran could have a test ready nuclear bomb in somewhere between 5 and 10 years.

I have a strong feeling the jews won't let this happen. Making a case that it upsets the balance of power in the middle east. I disagree, and think they should be able to proliferate a nuclear bomb as long as they prove willing to secure it. Israel will make the case that Iran could strike them first. But, this has been the case in Pakistan/India for a long time now.

If the Jews are unwilling to let Iran have the bomb and decide to strike before they have it...the fear and question for me is weather or not the United States will follow them.

The American media is making Iran into some kind of super power capable of world domination. Getting people warmed up to the idea we may end up at war with these people, when there is no logical reason to do so.

If this is the case, our leadership should make it clear we will not support Israel should they strike first, regardless of what weapons Iran may obtain.

Iraq was for stupidity, Iran would be for Israel. None of it is helping the American people.

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## Kratos

> This.
> 
> What doesn't Mhamoud say to whip up the masses, distracting them from the economic mess that Iran is?
> 
> He's the troll of the political world and to be honest he's good at what he does (that is, saying something to get a reaction). 
> 
> And of course we'll go to war with Iran in the near future. *Israel will demand it*.


I didn't read your whole post before mine. I agree, they don't want to let Iran go nuclear. US and Europe are likely to play ball.

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## Kratos

Biden is over there right now trying to talk them out of attacking.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english201...c_13204075.htm

If we can't get them to drop nuclear ambitions the jews are going to get impatient and strike first.

I can understand why they're scared, but the bomb isn't pointed at us....they are not a threat to the United States or Europe in any way.

We'll pay for it at the pump big time, and with a huge recession, and loss of American life, and pretty much nothing to show for it except more global hate for America. But we're going to get blamed either way I guess.

We'll likely follow them into another stupid war we can't afford...people or $$$

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## FranciscoG

> Iraq was for stupidity, Iran would be for Israel. None of it is helping the American people.


The 30 day war against Hezbollah, more accurately the 30 days worth of them getting thier ass kicked against hezbollah, being any kinda measure Iran is going to be much more for Israel.

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## eliteforce

Iran too far for israel to attack it and the countries in between won't go along meaning israeli jets might get shot down before they eve reach iran. in the war with hezbollah, Israel moved forward into nests of Hezbolah fighters dug into the hilly terain with a complex bunker system, equiped with advanced Russian anti-tank guided missiles, the result was dozens of destroyed or disabled israeli tanks, and their invasion halted. the terrain in s.lebanon is not easy like the gaza strip. You could only imagine the mess that would make in afghanistan or iraq if iran had supplied those types of weapons to insurgents in either country, although iran makes controversial statements, their actual policies are not very extreme; they have not done anything that directly attacks american interests. Despite the maerican government constantly trying to sabotage Iran for israel.

also Israel is not "The Jews" , it's Israel.

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## lexruger

All of my family including myself emigrated from Iran when the ayatollah took over the country. I feel ashamed of my birth country but at the sametime i feel proud to be an american citizen and feel that if there was going to be a premeptive strike on any country it should have Iran not Iraq. The unfortunate part of the whole mess is that most of the citizens in Iran love America and hate the government but because of fear and prosecution and the way the gov controls all aspects of media it is hard for many people across the world to understand. I miss where i grew up but i know that it is a country now that i would never went to return too even though i have family there i have not seen in over 20 years.

But at the same time i do feel that a lot of tension between Isreal and the surrounding countries is due to the fact that the governemnt feels entitled to land that was not theres in the first place. Now of course this does not excuse actions taken against the isrealis by the muslim countries but we have to understand that Isreal is not the only victim in this situation and there attitude that they are above other o****ries and that we we can have nukes but you can have nukes kind of bullsahit philosophy... Who are we to say you can and cant have missles? We have them dont we? Now i really dont like the idea of any country that hates us to have nuclear weapons but whaty kind of message are we setting by saying we can have them and yoou cant? IF i were them i'd say fduck that and get my own nukes. and if we didnt have such a large amnount of Isreali influence inside the U.S. ....i bet America wouldnt give two shits about whats happening over there as long as it didnt make its way over here.

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## BJJ

> All of my family including myself emigrated from Iran when the ayatollah took over the country. I feel ashamed of my birth country but at the sametime i feel proud to be an american citizen and feel that if there was going to be a premeptive strike on any country it should have Iran not Iraq. The unfortunate part of the whole mess is that most of the citizens in Iran love America and hate the government but because of fear and prosecution and the way the gov controls all aspects of media it is hard for many people across the world to understand. I miss where i grew up but i know that it is a country now that i would never went to return too even though *i have family there i have not seen in over 20 years*.


Sorry to read that.
I wish you, someday, to meet them again.

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## FranciscoG

> Iran too far for israel to attack it and the countries in between won't go along meaning israeli jets might get shot down before they eve reach iran. in the war with hezbollah, Israel moved forward into nests of Hezbolah fighters dug into the hilly terain with a complex bunker system, equiped with advanced Russian anti-tank guided missiles, the result was dozens of destroyed or disabled israeli tanks, and their invasion halted. the terrain in s.lebanon is not easy like the gaza strip. You could only imagine the mess that would make in afghanistan or iraq if iran had supplied those types of weapons to insurgents in either country, although iran makes controversial statements, their actual policies are not very extreme; they have not done anything that directly attacks american interests. Despite the maerican government constantly trying to sabotage Iran for israel.
> 
> also Israel is not "The Jews" , it's Israel.


I do not recall the details as you do, however, I do always recall the IDF calling hezbollah a ¨rag-tag¨ small force.

If you are supposed to be a highschool football team and you get your ass kicked by Jr. high teams then you are really gonna get your ass kicked by a pro team.

Hezbollah is nothing more than a watered down poorer armed version of the Iranian militia.

So if you can´t fight on your own then you go get someone else to bleed for you.

Anyone remember how Israel was pro-iraq war? Did they sheed one drop of blood? Hell no!

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## Vitruvian-Man

> *also Israel is not "The Jews" , it's Israel.*


THANK YOU! 

Glad someone finally mentioned that. It was starting to really bug me as I made my way through the post.

-VM

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## Kratos

> also Israel is not "The Jews" , it's Israel.





> THANK YOU! 
> 
> Glad someone finally mentioned that. It was starting to really bug me as I made my way through the post.
> 
> -VM


It is what it is, and too bad if you don't like it.
If you remove religion from this conflict, there isn't one.

why do you think they break them out of the polling numbers from other religions?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1082790.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117995.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...656957,00.html

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## Kratos

> Iran too far for israel to attack it and the countries in between won't go along meaning israeli jets might get shot down before they eve reach iran. in the war with hezbollah, Israel moved forward into nests of Hezbolah fighters dug into the hilly terain with a complex bunker system, equiped with advanced Russian anti-tank guided missiles, the result was dozens of destroyed or disabled israeli tanks, and their invasion halted. the terrain in s.lebanon is not easy like the gaza strip. You could only imagine the mess that would make in afghanistan or iraq if iran had supplied those types of weapons to insurgents in either country, although iran makes controversial statements, their actual policies are not very extreme; they have not done anything that directly attacks american interests. Despite the maerican government constantly trying to sabotage Iran for israel.
> 
> also Israel is not "The Jews" , it's Israel.





> I do not recall the details as you do, however, I do always recall the IDF calling hezbollah a ¨rag-tag¨ small force.
> 
> If you are supposed to be a highschool football team and you get your ass kicked by Jr. high teams then you are really gonna get your ass kicked by a pro team.
> 
> Hezbollah is nothing more than a watered down poorer armed version of the Iranian militia.
> 
> So if you can´t fight on your own then you go get someone else to bleed for you.
> 
> Anyone remember how Israel was pro-iraq war? Did they sheed one drop of blood? Hell no!


members of the iranian revoloutionary gaurd were also fighting.

the reason hezbollah gave them so much trouble is that the conflict didn't play to their advantages of size and technology.

It was not a major military victory, more PR victory.

It was not a war against lebanon, but a insurgent type war...same reason we're having so much trouble in Iraq.

Israel has a long track record of doing very well against other nations military.
They'll likely first try to strike the nuclear program alone.
And they have had success overflying iran without being shot down.
When Iraq wanted to go nuclear, they also bombed unfinished powerplants.
If things go this way, it's highly likely to make the region much more unstable.

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## Kratos

> Sorry to read that.
> I wish you, someday, to meet them again.


+1, sad story that you had to leave your birth country

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## FranciscoG

> *members of the iranian revoloutionary gaurd were also fighting.* this was actually not confirmed, in fact out of all the hezbollah fighters killed none were Iranian. Either was Israel got its ass kicked
> the reason hezbollah gave them so much trouble is that the conflict didn't play to their advantages of size and technology. *Elaborate please. My understand was all Israeli Air Force was deployed as well as the most advanced tanks and so on*
> 
> It was not a major military victory, more PR victory.
> 
> It was not a war against lebanon, but a insurgent type war...same reason we're having so much trouble in Iraq.*I believe Israel did invade Lebanon and after 18 years left. There was no gain in terms of objective or land or other measures*
> 
> Israel has a long track record of doing very well against other nations military.
> They'll likely first try to strike the nuclear program alone.
> ...


I believe that the reason why israel attacked hezbollah was due to the fact that two Israeli Marines were taken by force on Israeli soil by hezbollah.

The over-all objective of the was for the IDF was to get its men back. This objective failed.

I not sure what your measure of victory is but my measure is certainly not failing to do what your objective is.

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## Kratos

hezbollah was shooting rockets at civilians and killing them by the dozen
also they were shooting humvee's and jeeps killing at least I think 8
so there was more then the two people in their motives

In that war's aftermath, the Islamic Resistance was forced to withdraw its military presence to the North of the Litani River and the dispatching of the Lebanese Army and the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon into the area. So the end result was Hezbollah being out of rocket range. That isn't a win for hezbollah.

Israel lost 126 soldiers and 1 helicopter

Hezbollah militia:

Dead:
~250 (Hezbollah est.)[9]
≤500 (Lebanese officials' est.)[10]
~500 (UN officials' est.)[11]
~600 (IDF est.)[12]
(including over 200 captured bodies).[13] Wounded: Unknown Captured: 13[14] (9 released)
Amal militia: 17 dead
LCP militia: 12 dead
PFLP-GC militia: 2 dead

about 1200 civilians of lebanon died also

Defense analyst Ben Moores stated that Iranian Revolutionary Guardsmen were among the 600 to 900 anti-Israeli fighters killed during the conflict.

There objective was to destroy hezbollah, so in that they failed...hence the PR victory.
There was no winner however.

Yeah, tanks were used, to little effect. 50 or so were damaged and 5 destroyed.
That was the wake up call, urban warfare is tough.

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## Kratos

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6638568.ece

who's in the way between Israel and Iran...not Iraq anymore
Jordan? doubtful they'll get in the way

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...MZ0qBWy6PkHkCO

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4178960.ece

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## FranciscoG

Niether of the three links works.

I disagree with the point that Israel would be able to take down all of the Iranian sites or destroy the Iranian program. Far from it. I also disagree with many who think that it would be a cake walk.

I do agree that Israel won´t do any of the fighting and try to get us to do it.

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## Kratos

all three work for me
first is about saudi arabia letting Israel overfly in attack on iran
second is about a new fleet of drone aircraft israel has that can reach iran
third is about a flight drill involving more than 100 f-16 and f-15 fighters going an equal distance as iran.

and yes, I think israel wants us involved and doing a good bit of their bidding.

it will be no cake walk, but israel could take out the nuclear sites on their own
like I said we'll get f-ed by the whole thing and occupation will be more costly then Iraq
also the world oil market will be a mess with the whole region in conflict

I do not support any US military action on Iran. We will pay huge.
If Israel wants to go it alone, cut them loose.

This administration is not as much a friend to israel as bush, and that's a good thing.

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## Kratos

what do you think the political cost will be for the US though if Iran is hit by Israel and they travel through Iraqi airspace?

Clearly we could stop them if we wanted. I doubt we would shoot down Israeli planes though.

Wouldn't we be guilty by letting it happen?

That's a problem in not backing them, no? Guilt by lack of action.

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## Kratos

I will add, I think an attack is only an outside possibility.
Israel would loose seveal aircraft to iran...is likely to only set back iran a few years in their nuclear program as some of the facilities are underground and difficult to damage even with bunker busting bombs.

the political costs would be huge for israel, and support worldwide would tank.

what I'm saying is the possibility that the US could find itself in another middle east war is a scary prospect, not that it's imminent or extremely likely.

If israel had it's way, we'd be hitting Iran tomorrow though.

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## FranciscoG

Politically?

Making an assumption that the Saudi´s allow air space usage? 

Assuming Iran has cruise missles and other missles and would use them? The distruction of the saudi oil fields. The release of mines in the Persian Gulf. 55% of the world´s oil would come to a holt. Syria, Iran´s ally, would shut of the Iraqi pipeline as it did during the Iran/Iraq war. Prices for regular 87 oct gas would tripple at the pump or more.

Iran doing what Iran does would unleash hezbollah. 

Afgan inserguents would get the same if not better weapons as hezbollah has. This included the shoulder fired weapons that take down Apaches and so on. The Afgani war would be stepped up.

Southern Iraq, well we all know what would happen there.

Political and economic view would not be good. 

look back on Israeli preperations for this so called air raid, lets even assume they knew where all the sites were and could take them all out, the preperations have been talked about for 3 years now. Why do you think thye do not do them. I read an interesting article last week about the feeling in Israel, majority felt that Iran could not be stopped by Israel for many reasons.

Also take into account Israel only has conventional air power. They do not have a ******* power. The Russian supplied S-400 systems are no joke. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_(missile)

Conventional air power is a technology of the 1930s. F-16 and F-18 are 30+ year-old technology as well. 

I am not sure how effective they would be against the Russian supplied air defense system. For sure we know Israel has not done what it said it was going to do against Iran. There must be a reason for that.

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## FranciscoG

S t e a l t h

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## Kratos

I think they would be ineffective and foolish to attack without the US.

But that's not to say they wouldn't do it anyway.

And yes, iran would use SAMs to destroy many fighters with a good deal of success.

I think the Saudi's are going to let them use air space just to see it happen...kinda like watching a fight rather then breaking it up. They know it will end poorly for Israel without the US. And probably bring Israel closer to it's end.

US is the only military that can sustain an attack long enough to ensure destruction of the nuclear sites.

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## FranciscoG

Do you think a conventional air power would be even marginally effective against the S-400 system?

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## Kratos

> Do you think a conventional air power would be even marginally effective against the S-400 system?


It's not verified that Iran has that system as far as I know.
and yes, I do
You'll loose some aircraft, but in the end have a finite number of missiles defending a given area that aren't going to hit all their targets. So, plenty of planes will get through.

against the f-22, it's probably useless.

the drones are interesting too keep in mind

Israel has an undisclosed number of drones with the wingspan of a 737 that can fly for 20 hours straight.

Although the payload is not listed as very high. I'm sure you could put serval thousand pounds of exposives on board and do so serious damage. They'd be slow and easy as hell to shoot down...but they're cheaper then a missle to build and shear numbers could produce a good amount of damage.

Also you could get them to blow their load as far as sam's by sending them in first. Then the f-15's could come in to do the bunker busting.

Can they hit Iran and do a good bit of damage...probably.
will they? IDK, but I at least doubt it
is it a good idea? almost surely not

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## FranciscoG

When was the last time Israel actually won a military conflict decisively?

Not 2006.

Not 1982-2000 Vs. lebanon.

Not 1973 Egypt took land back.

1967 last decisive victory that I can remember.

As far as I know they have no F-22s, They can not unleash all thier conventional air power because there is a need to some to stay back to defend.

The other issue is the 24+ sites in Iran that are known. Let alone what is not known.

The S-400 or other SAMs are pretty effective againt conventional air power. It all matter on how many F-15s and so on are sent in and how many SAMs are there to defend.

Either way the old saying that you need to shit or get off the pot comes in to play. It has been 3 years of talking and no action.

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## Kratos

Oh yes, 1973 was most surely a decisive victory. Egypt and Syria sued for peace and unless the UN stepped in Egypt at least was about to loose a lot more of their army.

Egypt was given land for a peace agreement.
they still have some of syria's land

Israel won in 1982 against lebanon
occupation is always another story, as they always are

Israel has won every conflict that involved another nation so far, else they wouldn't exist anymore since all fighting was directly on their borders.

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## Kratos

I don't think they have any f-22's yet but applied to buy 50 and it was approved.
they also plan to buy the JSF

but that was more hypothetical if the US were to get involved.

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## Kratos

when was the last time the US won a war though...we still cause plenty of trouble
I think the last time was WWII...maybe the cold war, but a war when shots were fired that was the last one

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## FranciscoG

Iraq war I in 1992.

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## Kratos

this may be interesting to you Pharm
when Israel took out Syria's nuclear site a couple years back, they did so undetected by radar. There were supposidly pods on the F/16's.

http://news.zionism-israel.com/2007/...ria-facts.html

The sams are radar guided, so you can use your imagination there.

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## Kratos

> Iraq war I in 1992.


if you say so, we never even tried an occupation or regime change

bush II declared victory after 30 days in iraq this time too, and we had destroyed their military. Same measure of victory...but we didn't win really did we?

Depends on your definition. We stopped their attack and beat back their forces. So that was a clear positive. But we didn't even try to defeat the regime as a whole.

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## FranciscoG

The objective the first time was to get Sadam out of Kuwait. The objective was not to occupy.

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## Kratos

> The objective the first time was to get Sadam out of Kuwait. The objective was not to occupy.


sure...fine...but we've been in many wars we didn't win was my point

we were Saudi Arabia's hired whore in the first gulf war anyway

keeping OPEC in tact and the price of oil high, thumbs up on the victory

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## RANA

> someone get RANA to shoot that fukin irani durka durka already


thanks for the shout out, I am on a grey hound bus headed over there right now!

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