# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > POWERLIFTING FORUM >  Juicing - required?

## Phildude

Do you have to juice to be a powerlifter? I know you pretty much do to be successful, but can you still get good numbers after years of hard work without juicing?

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## tretch187

The answer is 12.

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## Velkar182

In my experience, yes if you have even decent genetics. You are right about the successful part.

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## power65

with good genetics, good diet, smart training, yes you can get very strong and be very competitive in powerlifting w/o steriods . Will you make the freaky gains as fast, NO. Will you get as strong w/o the steriods, NO. But you can be a successful powerlifter w/o steriods. You will need to compete in the right organizations though. You will have to compete in actual drug tested organizations. Sad to say there really aren't many out there. The strictest drug tested orgainzation is the USAPL. I'm not pumping them up by any means, but they are the truest "Drug Free" group out there. Before any of you start jumping in about how some lifters in the USAPL do "Use" I already know that. There will always be spineless coward cheats in any group. So I know that. (I'm not against those who chose to "Use", just don't "use" and enter drug tested meets). Anyway back to what I was saying. USAPL really makes every attempt to be drug free. If you are a "Genetic Freak" you really don't need the juice anyway. I know some of these guys. But my partner and I are drug free and have been able to compete and win on the national level 100% clean. So it can be done. We have also been training for 15+ years and my partner has been at it for 25+. So it does take time to develope strength naturally. 


Side Note: Please understand I'm not bashing anyone who does make the choice to "use". I was just simply trying ot answer a question. No hard feelings. I respect all of my Powerlifting Brothers. Except those who claim to be drug free and that aren't. In my mind you are the biggest cheaters in the world. LOL> 

Good luck.

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## RMBros

There are guys out there benching over 900 with no chemical assistance, but they're not the norm - obviously.

I think it's a lot easier to be a specialist and remain natural - because you're able to focus on one portion of your body, more or less.

I'm not aware of anyone near the record weights as a 3 lift lifter, but I'm not too aware of the personalities out there, so it wouldn't be a surprise if I missed someone.

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## Velkar182

900 lbs natural? No way. Mendelson got 926 and just missed lockout w/ 1008. Not only is he on the best and most scientific training and dieting, but he is genetically a freak to begin with. For the record, he juices to the point that some peple would consider dangerous. 900 natural...no way. I am 23 with 601 single ply touch and go bench naturally, and over the past three years I haven't added a whole hundred pounds to my bench. Over the next 10 years I probably won't add another hundred pounds onto my bench. The human body doesn't have the testosterone to generate or maintain such strength. No kind of shirt would give a natural lifter that kind of number.

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## power65

Velkar182, if your only 23, all natural, and you have a 601 bench in a single ply shirt you're doing awesome!! Yes you will add more to your bench in the years to come. With the way gear is changing every year you may bench 1500lbs. LOL. But why do you not think these guys are getting much out of their shirts? I know lots of guys that get 200lbs. out of a shirt. I know it's hard to believe, but these guys that are bench specialist are getting huge numbers out of their shirts. I personally think it's pretty much a joke, but facts are what they are. Bench Shirts, Squat Suits, etc. have really turned our sport into a joke. Yes I know it's all evolution and keeping up w/ the times. Heck many call it progress or whatever. But powerlifting is really losing a lot of respect from other power sports because it is so heavily dependent on gear. If you met a one of the "Top Benchers" at a gym and asked him to prove how strong his bench was the first thing he'd have to do is run and go get his shirt. Records no longer mean anything because there are no seperate records for depending on what kind of gear you're wearing. Just take a look at the squat for example. Guys squating in the Inzer Levathon suit are getting 250-300lbs out of the suit. There are guys squating 1000+ that couldn't do 700lbs raw, and only about 800 in a convential suit. Yet you here all this praise about these guys. I for one am not impressed with the direction our sport is taking. I know people know more about training now more than ever, but are the lifters really that much better than in the past, or is the gear just that much better? 8-10 yrs ago it was a huge deal for a guy to bench 600lbs., now it doesn't even make the news in our sport. There are guys wearing double layer RageX shirts, Double Karns Denium, Double this and that. WoW. Big Deal. I could add more to my bench just by changing shirts, but that's not what it's about to me. If I can bench 500lbs in one shirt and 600lbs in another by changing shirts did I really accomplish anything? To me powerlifting is about bettering myself and personal goals, not bragging rights. I guess I'm just more of a soul lifter. What do you guys think?

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## Velkar182

I have a deep admiration and respect for everything you just said. I just got the Leviathan and...well just look at my post on it. I like the Leviathan because I have a great lock out. If those shirts that are equally expensive do the same for your bench that is crazy. I am pretty sure a better shirt would increase my bench much considering I can only lock out a bit more than I can do raw. I am wierd like that.

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## powerliftmike

> Do you have to juice to be a powerlifter? I know you pretty much do to be successful, but can you still get good numbers after years of hard work without juicing?


Where is Doc.Sust when you need him?  :Smilie:  Yes, it definently is.

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## Doc.Sust

here i am! i can say alot on this post, 

1 scottmendelson eats dbol like cnady, he is NOT natural

2 there are great powerlifters who have put up sick weight without drugs
mark henry,wade hooper jason beck,ray benemerito, brian siders, mike bridges,greg lowe. list goes on and on, now did some of these guys ever use juice? who knows, but listen, youcan do great things drug free, you lift in drug free mets and its an even playing field. if you ever want to talk about drug free lifting , organizations, etc, pm me anytime, i know one or two things about drug free lifting

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## Phildude

Thanks for all your help guys I really appreciate it. 
While I would love to pm you Doc.sust, for some reason it won't let me, do you have to be a member for a certain amount of time or something before it allows you to pm?

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## Doc.Sust

> Thanks for all your help guys I really appreciate it. 
> While I would love to pm you Doc.sust, for some reason it won't let me, do you have to be a member for a certain amount of time or something before it allows you to pm?


shoot me an email, you do need so many post to pm, i amnot sure how many it is. [email protected]

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## power65

Always count on Doc. Sust to come through w/ an answer. He is a great asset here on the forum.

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## RMBros

> 900 lbs natural? No way. Mendelson got 926 and just missed lockout w/ 1008. Not only is he on the best and most scientific training and dieting, but he is genetically a freak to begin with. For the record, he juices to the point that some peple would consider dangerous. 900 natural...no way. I am 23 with 601 single ply touch and go bench naturally, and over the past three years I haven't added a whole hundred pounds to my bench. Over the next 10 years I probably won't add another hundred pounds onto my bench. The human body doesn't have the testosterone to generate or maintain such strength. No kind of shirt would give a natural lifter that kind of number.


Yep - over 900 natural. Only one I'm sure of - Shawn Lattimer. 

Of course, those are lifts he's reporting in the gym, not in comps, so you could say that they're not official lifts for sure. 

Oh, and I'm taking his word for it that he's clean, but he has no real reason to lie and has been tested, of course.

I think he mentioned a couple of others in that same league who are natural, but I'm not sure on that point.

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## Velkar182

I am not 100% sure but I can say with a great level of certainty that Lattimer is not drug free. Siders I am positive juices, but as I understand it, he was an animal to begin with. Mark Henry may be the strongest natural man ever. He's ventured into just about every form os strength contest and has, at times, asked to be tested. Definitely someoone I look up to.

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## power65

I'm pretty sure Tiny Meeker is natural. He has benched 864+ in a single ply rage X shirt. I watched him miss 902 by about 1 inch from lock-out several months ago. I've know Tiny for about 10 yrs and I've always known him to be drug free. He supports drug-free athletics here in our area. He's done many seminars on drug free training locally. All in all very solid and great guy to be around. Of course Tiny was bench pressing 300 lbs when he was very young. Some guys just have amazing genetics.

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## Doc.Sust

> Always count on Doc. Sust to come through w/ an answer. He is a great asset here on the forum.


thanks power, i appreciate it

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## Doc.Sust

yeah sean lat is clean, i trained with him once and talked with him a few times, i believe him. and i here tiny is also clean as well. i also know for a fact that big gene and mendy are far from clean. not that it matters, gene is a hell of a nice guy, and from waht i know of mendelson, is nothing good, his ego couldn't fit on all of the forums here combined! to him its all about what you can do for him, if you need something from him it will cost mcuho dinero, no free advice. he recently screwed over monster muscle mag, they promised him a cover if he gave them his raw routine for the magazine. mendy backed out at the last munute and said he makes to much money training and doesn't want to give his secrets away for free. in my world that is an a$$hole! also he later threatened to take legal actions against the mag for sipposedly slandering him. deuche!

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## RMBros

Yeah Doc, everything I've heard says Latt is natural, but you can't ever be sure.

The whole point was, to get back on topic, there are naturals out there with BIG #s, but they're certainly not the norm.

I guess the real answer to the question, "Is juicing required?" is:

It depends on the level you want to lift at and how good your genes are.

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## Phildude

True my genes aren't the best, I am 6' but I don't have super long arms. My body is proportioned about right, and I am 187 lbs but looking to get massiver. It'll take years I know, but at 20 I have years.

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## Doc.Sust

besides genetics and drugs it also depends on how much of a normal life you are willing to give up. i read 2 articles, one from becca swanson, she has a degree in mechanical enginering but instead works in a gym 72 hours a wk and barely pays her bills. she stated "sometimes i wonder if i am wasting my life", andy bolton, is a driver for a photo company part time, when asked what he does for a living he stated"not much, i try not to let anything get in the way of powerlifting" donnie thompson is yet another, he barley makes ends meets and chooses to live in a wharehouse he converted into a gym so he could continuely train and work on lifting all the time. some of these people let this consume there entire lives.

a guy like latimer is someone i respect he holds a good enginering job and told me word for word,"this is a hobby, i do it for fun. some people try to make a living doing this, but i don't. the day this becomes a job for me is the day i quit"

i love the sport, and i have given up alot for it, but not as much as others, and when it starts to truly be your everything, IMO, it is not worth it. weights are not worth your life.

guy like anthony clark chased huge numbers for years. anyone who knew anothony knew he didn't take care of himself, he held a 350lb body weight so he could lift incredible weight for over a decade into the late 90's and was the world strongest man for a moment in time., now as we look back clarks numbers have been beaten several times over by even 220lb lifters of today . anthony passed away prematurely in his mid to late 30's. the question you have to think about , was it worth it? i can never say yes to that question.

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## Velkar182

I am clean and intend to stay that way for a while, but hear this all you guys...When I do juice, no one will know and I don't intend to tell anyone but my wife, so no one will know for sure. It is a crime after all. I sure as heck will not risk jail time. It is not a matter of risking a reputation for lifters always. If I lift more than everyone in the world, I sure as hell wouldn't give two $hits about everyone being pissed off that I am stronger through unnatural means. I'd rather trash my reputation than lie, but above all I'd rather not go to jail.

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