# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Israel or Palestine?

## Undercover

I know this probably belongs in the lounge, but it's political and thought I would get more serious answers.

So whose side are you on? and why? Just curious to know what you guys know/feel about this issue.

----------


## Panzerfaust

Well certainly it "was" the Palestinians land and the British made a deal with the "Jews" that if they could get the US involved in the war they would give them that land after. 

And the rest is history!

I'd certainly hate to be a Palestinian living in what is nothing more than a concentration camp that is the Gaza strip.

----------


## Matt

X2 ^^^

----------


## Flagg

Israel and Palestine is a classic case of "might is right".

"We're stronger than you, so we can do what we want"...

I voted Palestine.

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

Israel. They have hotter women.

----------


## Flagg

> Israel. They have hotter women.


You're not wrong there mate.

----------


## Kratos

I think people who start these threads are brainwashed propaganda fed muslims who have an axe to grind on the issue and hope to recruit popular opinion to their side of the argument. Both sides are wrong but for different reasons.

----------


## Undercover

^^ wtf? i'm totally lost on the whole Muslim propaganda thing. 

You have to choose a side. You either think the land should have stayed with the Palestinians or that are Jews were more entitled to it. The 'both sides are wrong' reasoning is the main cause of the ongoing Middle East crisis. One side has to be more wrong than the other or more reponsible for what's going on.

----------


## Kratos

> ^^ wtf? i'm totally lost on the whole Muslim propaganda thing. 
> 
> You have to choose a side. You either think the land should have stayed with the Palestinians or that are Jews were more entitled to it. The 'both sides are wrong' reasoning is the main cause of the ongoing Middle East crisis. One side has to be more wrong than the other or more reponsible for what's going on.


The current state of Palestine is unfortunate, but Palestine made it's own bed. The Jews should have a right to live and exist. Muslims are more wrong. But, you won't be satisfied with that answer...actually it's the answer you were hoping to get from someone, so you would have a reason to state your case.

----------


## Undercover

Of course I won't be satisfied with that answer. Care to explain more? So far, you've just stated your opinion.

Stop thinking there's a hidden agenda behind my thread. I'm pretty sure I can't compete with Israeli PR campaigns, and even if I did, a steroids forum wouldn't be my starting point.

----------


## DKU

They're both nuts imo.

----------


## thegodfather

If someone doesn't see the 1940s situation in Israel as being analagous to Native American Indians coming to your town and evicting you and all of your neighbors because they lived there at one time centuries ago, then there is no point in arguing with that person. 

Palestinians occupied the land most recently, and therefore they should be able to live there as citizens. Not the second class citizens that they are under the apartheid Israeli regime, where food, water, and medical care are used as weapons against 2 million innocent people. Causing 2 million people to suffer for the crimes of MAYBE a few THOUSAND terrorists will never be justified in my eyes, all politics aside. 

What we have now is a big f**ing mess, and in my PERSONAL opinion the only solution would be a 2 state solution, and I use the word solution very hesitantly.

----------


## Bio-boosted

> ^^ wtf? i'm totally lost on the whole Muslim propaganda thing. 
>  
> You have to choose a side. You either think the land should have stayed with the Palestinians or that are Jews were more entitled to it. The 'both sides are wrong' reasoning is the main cause of the ongoing Middle East crisis. One side has to be more wrong than the other or more reponsible for what's going on.


Palestine, as you see it today, is no less 'invented' than is the State of Israel.
It vanished 100's of years ago, falling eventually under Persian spears. What you see today is an Ottoman invention, an attempt to create an Islamic state that encompassed Jerusalem. 
It is simply romantic to side with the 'original peoples of Palestine'; they are Turks, Moroccans and Persians. 
Historically speaking, they are no more indigenous than the Jews who also want to settle. In fact i'd go further, but i'm not looking to upset people.

----------


## MuscleScience

My only question is, Where was America when the Romans were occupying Israel and oppressing the Jews???

----------


## Tock

IMHO, since the Arabs owned it last, it's theirs.

IMHO, the best solution to the problem is for the Arabs who live in Israel to keep increasing in population and then form a majority voting block, and then vote to become a state with Palestine, then elect a Palestinian majority government, make all the changes they want, and live happily ever after.
All it would take is lots of sex.

----------


## alex18

i say kick them both out and let the gypsies live there

----------


## Undercover

> Palestine, as you see it today, is no less 'invented' than is the State of Israel.
> It vanished 100's of years ago, falling eventually under Persian spears. What you see today is an Ottoman invention, an attempt to create an Islamic state that encompassed Jerusalem. 
> It is simply romantic to side with the 'original peoples of Palestine'; they are *Turks, Moroccans and Persians.*
> Historically speaking, they are no more indigenous than the Jews who also want to settle. In fact i'd go further, but i'm not looking to upset people.


Wrong. "Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times," largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation and the establishment of Arabic as the lingua franca, eventually becoming the sole vernacular of the locals, most of whom would over time also convert to Islam from various prior faiths."

I don't know where you got the idea that they're Turks, Moroccans, and Persians. That's like saying Egyptians are English or the Lebanese are French.

In fact, Palestinians, genetically and historically, are 'more Jewish' than Ashkenazi Jews. The argument is that why should a people who had nothing to do with the land for hundreds of years claim to be more deserving than the Palestinians. It doesn't seem fair that some European Jews have dual citizenship, while some Palestinians have none.

And you're wrong about the idea of Palestine. The boundaries have varied immensely long before the Ottoman Empire. What Palestinians claim to be modern day Palestine is not the Ottoman version, but rather the British mandate of Palestine (Sykes-Pico agreement and the Hussein-Mcmahon letters). 




> If someone doesn't see the 1940s situation in Israel as being analagous to Native American Indians coming to your town and evicting you and all of your neighbors because they lived there at one time centuries ago, then there is no point in arguing with that person.
> 
> Palestinians occupied the land most recently, and therefore they should be able to live there as citizens. Not the second class citizens that they are under the apartheid Israeli regime, where food, water, and medical care are used as weapons against 2 million innocent people. Causing 2 million people to suffer for the crimes of MAYBE a few THOUSAND terrorists will never be justified in my eyes, all politics aside.
> 
> *What we have now is a big f**ing mess, and in my PERSONAL opinion the only solution would be a 2 state solution, and I use the word solution very hesitantly.*


Agreed, but that can't happen with illegal settlements growing everywhere in the Palestinian territories. I really hope something comes out of the US-Israeli talks.

----------


## Kratos

> I'm pretty sure I can't compete with Israeli PR campaigns, and even if I did, a steroids forum wouldn't be my starting point.


100 x more muslims in the world and they don't have PR campaigns of their own?

----------


## Undercover

When did I say anything about Muslims? But to answer your question, there's definitely Muslim propaganda out there, but most Muslim countries don't really care enough. Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Iran are the major players; Iran mostly for religious reasons. 

Can you really compare the two? Israel's PR campaigns are extremely well-planned and generously financed.

If you have time on your hands, watch this film: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75898578139565

It's not Muslim propaganda, by the way. It's just a glance on how news about the Middle East conflict is handled in the US.

----------


## MuscleScience

Might equals right, has always been that way. Not saying its right unless you can kick my ass then your right, right?

----------


## Bio-boosted

> Wrong. "Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times," largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation and the establishment of Arabic as the lingua franca, eventually becoming the sole vernacular of the locals, most of whom would over time also convert to Islam from various prior faiths."
> 
> I don't know where you got the idea that they're Turks, Moroccans, and Persians. That's like saying Egyptians are English or the Lebanese are French.
> 
> In fact, Palestinians, genetically and historically, are 'more Jewish' than Ashkenazi Jews. The argument is that why should a people who had nothing to do with the land for hundreds of years claim to be more deserving than the Palestinians. It doesn't seem fair that some European Jews have dual citizenship, while some Palestinians have none.
> 
> And you're wrong about the idea of Palestine. The boundaries have varied immensely long before the Ottoman Empire. What Palestinians claim to be modern day Palestine is not the Ottoman version, but rather the British mandate of Palestine (Sykes-Pico agreement and the Hussein-Mcmahon letters).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ObB2WVFvw 
Further more, as you've pointed out the boundaries have indeed varied over the years. I didn't want to bother going too far back but...
The land 'belonged' to the Egyptians who's neighbours were the Hebrews (Kingdom's of Judea & Israel). The Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines) were the invaders. 
These invaders/settlers waged a near constant war against the Jews - Chaim Herzog & Mordechai Gichon, Battles of the Bible, Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2006 - a classic being ole David & Goliath (Valley Of Elah) 
Palestine was fully erased many times over the years, but the land spread you see today though is similar to biblical times- but are they peopled by ancient Canaanites today? No. This is their gene spread - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29 
But of course the _real_ problem is a religious one (imo, less a territorial one). The Jew is the fly in the ointment, it is _their_ faith that forms the foundation of Islam. And now they have returned and occupy an important holy site. One they now share. As some desire, like that Iranian bigot dinner-jacket, if the Jews are wiped from existence Islam is purified. And it is this that is the real bother. 
I'd bother with deeper detail, but it is late.

----------


## thegodfather

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ObB2WVFvw 
> Further more, as you've pointed out the boundaries have indeed varied over the years. I didn't want to bother going too far back but...
> The land 'belonged' to the Egyptians who's neighbours were the Hebrews (Kingdom's of Judea & Israel). The Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines) were the invaders. 
> These invaders/settlers waged a near constant war against the Jews - Chaim Herzog & Mordechai Gichon, Battles of the Bible, Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2006 - a classic being ole David & Goliath (Valley Of Elah) 
> Palestine was fully erased many times over the years, but the land spread you see today though is similar to biblical times- but are they peopled by ancient Canaanites today? No. This is their gene spread - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29 
> But of course the _real_ problem is a religious one (imo, less a territorial one). The Jew is the fly in the ointment, it is _their_ faith that forms the foundation of Islam. And now they have returned and occupy an important holy site. One they now share. As some desire, like that Iranian bigot dinner-jacket, if the Jews are wiped from existence Islam is purified. And it is this that is the real bother. 
> I'd bother with deeper detail, but it is late.


It is so trivial for you to go that far back in history. You only need to deal with 1919 and forward. Were people who had nothing to do with these past conflicts leaving peacefully on the presently occupied land? YES. Are these same people now being oppressed, demoted to 2nd class citizen status? YES. Is water, food, and medical treatment being used as a weapon and means of control over 3 million innocent civilians who have nothing to do with a 'conflict'? YES. 

Who did what to who 1,000 years ago doesn't mean jack shit to the present situation. The Jewish settlers have uprooted people who had every right to live on the land that they were living on. Settlements are inside of the West Bank and Gaza which are against international law, they are illegal. Non-Jews do not have the right to move freely about 'their' land, and a host of other things. So there is in essence, no difference between what Israel is doing now, and what South Africa did for so many years. They oppressed the indigenous population, demoted them to 2nd class citizens, and evicted them from their land and forced them to live in ghettos. 

Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, it doesn't matter what face you put on it. 

Asking who attacked who, is really an argument like the chicken or the egg. Do Palestinians commit suicide bombings because they hate Jews and their religion? Of course not, that is as absurd as saying Arabs commit terrorism against America because we are "Free and prosperous, and they hate our way of life and our freedom." Arabs commit terrorism against the US because we have been meddling in their affairs for 60 years, overthrowing their elected governments, installing dictators, setting up bases on their holy land, etc. Palestinians commit suicide bombings because Israel has evicted millions of people from their land which was rightfully theirs, routinely targets civilians in engagements, uses civilians as human shields, starves them of food and water, denies them freedom of movement, denies them access to medical care, and has imprisoned them in two areas known as the Gaza strip and West Bank. After all, Palestinians didn't commit suicide bombings prior to the formation of Israel and the eviction of its people did it?

----------


## Bio-boosted

Absurd, yes! Trivial, no.
History is the explanation for where we are today. What you think, trivial, is very important to others. 
But I can't be bothered anymore, because what you are getting at is true. To dig too deep or far back is to make the concerns of those in dire need today seem... trivial.

Here's a passing thought tho, check these two 90sec graphic vids out. No, they don't back up my ideas. But if you have 3 mins to spare you might like what you see. I've bookmarked them, good quick bit o history (of religion and imperialism), enjoy!
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html 
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

peace

----------


## TJ09

Israel follow the bible back to the beginning and it was given to Abraham(Jew)

----------


## Panzerfaust

> It is so trivial for you to go that far back in history. You only need to deal with 1919 and forward. Were people who had nothing to do with these past conflicts leaving peacefully on the presently occupied land? YES. Are these same people now being oppressed, demoted to 2nd class citizen status? YES. Is water, food, and medical treatment being used as a weapon and means of control over 3 million innocent civilians who have nothing to do with a 'conflict'? YES. 
> 
> Who did what to who 1,000 years ago doesn't mean jack shit to the present situation. The Jewish settlers have uprooted people who had every right to live on the land that they were living on. Settlements are inside of the West Bank and Gaza which are against international law, they are illegal. Non-Jews do not have the right to move freely about 'their' land, and a host of other things. So there is in essence, no difference between what Israel is doing now, and what South Africa did for so many years. They oppressed the indigenous population, demoted them to 2nd class citizens, and evicted them from their land and forced them to live in ghettos. 
> 
> Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, it doesn't matter what face you put on it. 
> 
> *It is ok because they are Jews, you know the special people who can do no wrong. An idiot can go back at look at history and see the havoc they cause everywhere they go. Yet they have everyone believing "Poor Jews"..bla bla bla*
> 
> Asking who attacked who, is really an argument like the chicken or the egg. Do Palestinians commit suicide bombings because they hate Jews and their religion? Of course not, that is as absurd as saying Arabs commit terrorism against America because we are "Free and prosperous, and they hate our way of life and our freedom." Arabs commit terrorism against the US because we have been meddling in their affairs for 60 years, overthrowing their elected governments, installing dictators, setting up bases on their holy land, etc. Palestinians commit suicide bombings because Israel has evicted millions of people from their land which was rightfully theirs, routinely targets civilians in engagements, uses civilians as human shields, starves them of food and water, denies them freedom of movement, denies them access to medical care, and has imprisoned them in two areas known as the Gaza strip and West Bank. After all, Palestinians didn't commit suicide bombings prior to the formation of Israel and the eviction of its people did it?
> ...





Bold

----------


## mho

> I know this probably belongs in the lounge, but it's political and thought I would get more serious answers.
> 
> So whose side are you on? and why? Just curious to know what you guys know/feel about this issue.


What is Palestine? Is that a new country or something?

----------


## kickinit

Both are shit holes.

----------


## *El Diablo*

+1 for Israel. My middle name is Israel. Im a Jew.

----------


## BJJ

> My only question is, Where was America when the Romans were occupying Israel and oppressing the Jews???


drunk?

----------


## BJJ

> Israel follow the bible back to the beginning and it was given to Abraham(Jew)


Yes sure, the Bible is the right book to follow! :Chairshot: 
 :Haha: 

You are drunk as well, right?

----------


## BJJ

1948, David Ben-Gurion declares the foundation of the State of Israel (14th May). Israel is recognised immediately by the United States and the USSR, followed by the other countries. In war of independence, the day after, the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and a quota by Iraq invades the new state. In 15 months of intense fighting, all the invaders are rejected. Then, it was founded the Defence Forces of Israel (IDF), incorporating all the organizations of defence; hence the army of Israel called "Zhaal". Mass migration from Europe in the II WW and also started to come Jews by the Arab countries. In the years to come Israel doubled its Jewish population. The anti-Semitic prejudice nourished for centuries of lies that in literature and popular belief were considered truth without appeal. The propaganda feeds similarly of lies that, radically changing the history and creeping abominations, are intended to undermine and demonise Israel as before the Jews. So, many lies became indisputable a x i o m s!
I'll mention 5 of them:

1. Zionism is a racist movement.
2. Palestine, as the name suggests, is the land of Palestinians, that the Jews have seized.
3. The Israeli control of Jerusalem, threat religious freedom and access to the Holy Places.
4. If Israel end the occupation of the Palestinian territories there would be the peace in the Middle East.
5. The only solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the creation of a State transnational where the two people share the same land.

 :Liar:  :Liar:  :Liar:  :Liar:  :Liar:

----------


## Kratos

> Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast.?


So, they should have done what muslims did in the pakistan partition when they killed millions of hindu for no good reason other then wanting a Muslim nation seperate from India.

These are people who waged war against Israel and ended up behind fences as a result. Not innocent citizens. It isn't so simple.

----------


## Nooomoto

Me and some Army buddies got into a brawl with about 30 Israeli jews one night...we stood our ground (3 vs 30ish)...took some and dealt some. They showed a lot of respect in the end and we are pretty good friends with a few of them now. So...I'll go with Israel. Somehow I don't think a bunch of Palestinians would be that cool.

----------


## Older lifter

We would all be better just dropping all religion period, so sick of the whole lot.

Heaven and hell,,, well if there is such places people won't be going to any heaven thats for sure....

----------


## crazy_rocks

a basic knowledge in the history of the issue would lead anyone with common sense to choose israel.

----------


## eliteforce

basic facts:

1948- British 'peacekeepers' are forced to leave by zionist terrorists and presure from america and western zionists.. 800,000 Palestinians are expelled so a "jewish state' Israel could be created or invented in British Mandate Palestine, a country that has a jewish population that is no more than 1/4 and 3/4s being Palestinian, in the 1920s the jewish population was 10% , the sudden increase due to waves of immigrants from Europe. Israel's founding war takes place after Arabs reject partition of the country into several cantons; instead they insist that the country be represented democratically with jews taking minority representation. 

1967- Israel creates a pretext and occupies the rest of Palestine, another 2-400,000 Palestinians are forced out in the war.

1967-now - Israel uses a brutal system of aphartied, land consfiscations, house demolitions, jewish only roads, harassment, torture, detensions w/o trial, and ethnic cleansing in the worst racist oppresion the world has ever seen..

----------


## crazy_rocks

> basic facts:
> 
> 1948- British 'peacekeepers' are forced to leave by zionist terrorists and presure from america and western zionists.. 800,000 Palestinians are expelled so a "jewish state' Israel could be created or invented in British Mandate Palestine, a country that has a jewish population that is no more than 1/4 and 3/4s being Palestinian, in the 1920s the jewish population was 10% , the sudden increase due to waves of immigrants from Europe. Israel's founding war takes place after Arabs reject partition of the country into several cantons; instead they insist that the country be represented democratically with jews taking minority representation. 
> 
> 1967- Israel creates a pretext and occupies the rest of Palestine, another 2-400,000 Palestinians are forced out in the war.
> 
> 1967-now - Israel uses a brutal system of aphartied, land consfiscations, house demolitions, jewish only roads, harassment, torture, detensions w/o trial, and ethnic cleansing in the worst racist oppresion the world has ever seen..


basic facts. 

the palestinians that were expelled were few. the majority that did leave did so out of safety for a invasion against israel that its arab neighbors warned about.

if the palestinians followed the resolution 181 they would have had their own state along time ago.

normally when a country goes to war with another and wins land is kept. many countries attacked israel in the six day war. israel won and kept what they felt they should. not sure what you find wrong. 

worst racist oppression in history? you must be a holocaust denier

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

Israel FTW!


/thread

----------


## eliteforce

> basic facts. 
> 
> the palestinians that were expelled were few. the majority that did leave did so out of safety for a invasion against israel that its arab neighbors warned about.


They mostly left because zionist terrorists were conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign, this is well documented, it's the same tactic used in the balkins decades later; but even if they were just fleeing war-refugees often flee a war zone, when Germany invaded France there were long lines of refugees but once France surrendered, even hitler allowed them go back to the country or area they fled..
the difference here is 'Israel the jewish state' refused to let them back in to their homes once the armistice went into effect, so clearly they had an agenda by forcing them out in the first place, a UN resolution demanded that they be let back home but it was ignored.

keep in mind zionism isn't just giving a homeland to jews by moving them to palestine, so they can be palestinians, like jews going to america and being americans.. it's getting rid of the people there because they're not jewish and establishing a 'jewish state'.. it's just so fdup! there were already jews there-palestinians jews, and they were living in peace there with christians and muslims.. Why wasn't zionism just getting jews over there to be Palestinians, like to be Americans or Argentinians or south africans and everywhere else where jews have migrated from europe.. no they get this .. can't everyone see this-zionism is an outdated fascist ideology from a bygone era..






> basic facts.
> if the palestinians followed the resolution 181 they would have had their own state along time ago.


if they accepted partition, as I stated earlier they wanted their rights as the majority of the population, they were forced to take european refugees so they should at least have fair representation, but in the 181 partition the 'jewish' segregated areas had a Palestinian population of 40%, no one mentioned what was supposed to happen to them-presumably they were supposed to be expelled into the 'arab' part, and the only reason the zionists accepted that ridiculous plan was because they knew the Palestinians would reject it- zionists wanted even more, they wanted jordan too.




> normally when a country goes to war with another and wins land is kept. many countries attacked israel in the six day war. israel won and kept what they felt they should. not sure what you find wrong. 
> 
> worst racist oppression in history? you must be a holocaust denier


_not sure what you find wrong._ have you been to the WB! what I find wrong is that they kept the land BUT didn't extend equal rights to the indigenous population that lived on it! When the US won a war against mexico and the kept California-anyone living there became Americans. see you can do that because 'America' isn't this racist 'white only' nation state, anyone is an american..but the Palestinians cannot be 'Israeli' thats a "jewish state" 

what israelis did instead is create an aphartied scheme, one worse than south africa and thats why i call it the worst..

the holocaust was when millions of jews, gypsies, and ethni minorities were exterminated, i'm speaking in terms of forced ghettoisation .. which the Germans subjected Jews to in the early years of the war before America started bombing the hell out of them and they started exterminating prisoners. it was also about the time that German occupied countries like belgium, holland, and the rest of them were experiencing food shortages.

btw America kept Japanese Americans in concentration camps, one has to wonder what would have happened to them had Japan carpet bombed san francisco, chicago, and new york and there were food shortages..i'm pretty sure they would have been dead.

the reason palestine is the worst because it has been going on for more than 60 years in 'peacetime' .. 

all that other stuff was during world war where 60 million people died in addition to those upto 6 million jews that were killed, including 8 million various peoples executed by stalin. 

and lets not forget the million iraqis that have died just recently because of yet another zionist war.. funny how american politians and commentators are more concerned about 6 million people dying 60 years ago than they are millions dying now.

----------


## Kratos

> They mostly left because zionist terrorists were conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign, this is well documented, it's the same tactic used in the balkins decades later; but even if they were just fleeing war-refugees often flee a war zone, when Germany invaded France there were long lines of refugees but once France surrendered, even hitler allowed them go back to the country or area they fled..
> the difference here is 'Israel the jewish state' refused to let them back in to their homes once the armistice went into effect, so clearly they had an agenda by forcing them out in the first place, a UN resolution demanded that they be let back home but it was ignored.


Where was hitler going to put them? Germany???
He was trying to take over the world dumb ass. If you just push them out of the current border, you just end up fighting them again. Martial law is how Hitler delt with them.

Amrmistice but no argreement for peace has been reached, which is why they remain where they are.

----------


## Kratos

> and lets not forget the million iraqis that have died just recently because of yet another zionist war.. funny how american politians and commentators are more concerned about 6 million people dying 60 years ago than they are millions dying now.


These groups among others within Iraq were in favor of a US led Iraqi regime change, and had asked for our help.
The Iraqi National Accord, 
The Iraqi National Congress, 
The Islamic Movement of Iraqi Kurdistan, 
The Kurdistan Democratic Party, 
The Movement for Constitutional Monarchy, 
The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, and 
The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> They mostly left because zionist terrorists were conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign, this is well documented, it's the same tactic used in the balkins decades later; but even if they were just fleeing war-refugees often flee a war zone, when Germany invaded France there were long lines of refugees but once France surrendered, even hitler allowed them go back to the country or area they fled..
> the difference here is 'Israel the jewish state' refused to let them back in to their homes once the armistice went into effect, so clearly they had an agenda by forcing them out in the first place, a UN resolution demanded that they be let back home but it was ignored.
> 
> keep in mind zionism isn't just giving a homeland to jews by moving them to palestine, so they can be palestinians, like jews going to america and being americans.. it's getting rid of the people there because they're not jewish and establishing a 'jewish state'.. it's just so fdup! there were already jews there-palestinians jews, and they were living in peace there with christians and muslims.. Why wasn't zionism just getting jews over there to be Palestinians, like to be Americans or Argentinians or south africans and everywhere else where jews have migrated from europe.. no they get this .. can't everyone see this-zionism is an outdated fascist ideology from a bygone era..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you are incorrect. where did you go to school. the neo-nazi college of misinformation?

----------


## eliteforce

if your going to post that, how am i incorrect? what did i write that wasn't true.. and again this zionist trik of calling critics 'anti-semite' or 'nazi' when you have a country as oppressive and racist as israel, and zionists control the media; that type of non-sense becomes the mainstream.

as far as all those groups that supported the iraq invasion, if you go into the gutter-it's easy to find rats; those are people who knew the war would kill massive numbers of iraqis and make that country worse off than it was before but they have their own agenda- that entire list is a small number of people-some of which were getting funded by the US, just like American defense/security contractors-a few benefit but the majority suffers. in that case we see the majority of the American population suffer in an economic crises, effectivly 17% unemployment-but the contractors continue to do very well..

----------


## wantmoremass

can't say i'm on either 'side' really. i think everyone should have a place they can call home. i sometimes wonder if there was no religion if that would stop the jewish/muslim conflict, or if the conflict is simply about land ownership and the conflict is israeli/palestinian (are they one in the same?) i know that if i was living somewhere that my family had been for generations and someone came to take the land and give it to people whose family had lived there hundreds (or thousands) of years ago, and treated me like a second-class citizen in what used to be my home, i'd be inconsolable. at the same time, i understand how the holy lands carry relics and historical significance for multiple religions/people and the jews feel an entitlement to that.

every time i examine the middle east situation, it makes me glad that i live in a secular society, and in a country where we don't have the historical baggage to create that kind of conflict here (who knows, someday that may change). i work, live, exercise, eat, and celebrate beside muslims, jews, christians, unitarian universalists, liberals, conservatives, people of every nation and skin color in the world every day. it's a privilege to be able to pledge allegiance to the nation where people have come with like minds to build somewhere we all can live peacefully together. i have a hard time understanding why we can't all do that. i find it mostly sad.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> if your going to post that, how am i incorrect? what did i write that wasn't true.. and again this zionist trik of calling critics 'anti-semite' or 'nazi' when you have a country as oppressive and racist as israel, and zionists control the media; that type of non-sense becomes the mainstream.
> 
> as far as all those groups that supported the iraq invasion, if you go into the gutter-it's easy to find rats; those are people who knew the war would kill massive numbers of iraqis and make that country worse off than it was before but they have their own agenda- that entire list is a small number of people-some of which were getting funded by the US, just like American defense/security contractors-a few benefit but the majority suffers. in that case we see the majority of the American population suffer in an economic crises, effectivly 17% unemployment-but the contractors continue to do very well..


stick to the topic your jumping all over the place.

heres a fact for you elite person.

in the early 1900's when the jews were moving BACK to what use to be israel. they bought land from people and made it a nice place to live at again. once pretty and nice again the people who sold the land to the jews then claimed the jews stole it. 

if your gonna tell the history dont leave out the cool stuff.

you have the right to your own opinion, not your own fact.

your turn!

----------


## crazy_rocks

> can't say i'm on either 'side' really. i think everyone should have a place they can call home. i sometimes wonder if there was no religion if that would stop the jewish/muslim conflict, or if the conflict is simply about land ownership and the conflict is israeli/palestinian (are they one in the same?) i know that if i was living somewhere that my family had been for generations and someone came to take the land and give it to people whose family had lived there hundreds (or thousands) of years ago, and treated me like a second-class citizen in what used to be my home, i'd be inconsolable. at the same time, i understand how the holy lands carry relics and historical significance for multiple religions/people and the jews feel an entitlement to that.
> 
> every time i examine the middle east situation, it makes me glad that i live in a secular society, and in a country where we don't have the historical baggage to create that kind of conflict here (who knows, someday that may change). i work, live, exercise, eat, and celebrate beside muslims, jews, christians, unitarian universalists, liberals, conservatives, people of every nation and skin color in the world every day. it's a privilege to be able to pledge allegiance to the nation where people have come with like minds to build somewhere we all can live peacefully together. i have a hard time understanding why we can't all do that. i find it mostly sad.


very well said wantmoremass

----------


## *El Diablo*

I like Kratos's point of view on the whole thing...

----------


## eliteforce

That would have been a civil issue, if they bought land under the turkish or british governments then they had the deed or whatever.. 

what I was talking about the basic facts of ethnic cleansing and an aphartied system-its a much more serious than a civil dispute not that you referred to anything specific..

and jews moved BACK to Palestine much like the christian crusaders did, their dogma being that they were 'reclaiming' 

if you look at the other threads on this topic we were talking about how european jews originate in the caucausis, not the middle east-thats why they are caucasian people-duh, that simple fact is not in dispute.

but once they arrived in Palestine there agenda was to create a jewish state, which means non-jews, the indeginous arabs have no rights or are expelled . . they could have just been in Palestine like everywhere else they migrated and been "palestinians", but Palestinians can never be "Israeli" because of its religious connotation. 

I mentioned this before- Jews migrated to S.Africa, Argentina, NewYork- no serious problems in those places-since they are S.Africans, Argentinians, and Americans; how would New Yorkers feel if they decided that NY should be a Jewish State, or that it should be segregated between jews and non-jews.. 

when is the world going to wake up and see zionism as the double standard fraud that it is?





> stick to the topic your jumping all over the place.
> 
> heres a fact for you elite person.
> 
> in the early 1900's when the jews were moving BACK to what use to be israel. they bought land from people and made it a nice place to live at again. once pretty and nice again the people who sold the land to the jews then claimed the jews stole it. 
> 
> if your gonna tell the history dont leave out the cool stuff.
> 
> you have the right to your own opinion, not your own fact.
> ...

----------


## crazy_rocks

> That would have been a civil issue, if they bought land under the turkish or british governments then they had the deed or whatever.. 
> 
> what I was talking about the basic facts of ethnic cleansing and an aphartied system-its a much more serious than a civil dispute not that you referred to anything specific..
> 
> and jews moved BACK to Palestine much like the christian crusaders did, their dogma being that they were 'reclaiming'
> 
> 
> the jews were not moving back like the crusaders. you see the crusaders made safety for those to visit. jews moved BACK home...for good.
> yes the are white european jews moving back to israel, as well as middle eastern jews from almost if not every middle eastern country that returned to israel. duh disputed.
> ...



just because someone is in a fight against someone that is different than who they are it does not mean it is ethnic cleansing. although both sides have committed war crimes there has been no ethnic cleansing by the israelis against the palestinians.


the jews were not moving back like the crusaders. you see the crusaders made safety for those to visit. jews moved BACK home...for good.
yes there are white european jews moving back to israel, they are descendants of israel mixed with european. however you forgot about middle eastern jews from almost if not every middle eastern country. duh disputed.

there are israelis (people living in israel) that are arab muslims.

fact- when israel became a country AGAIN many jews in muslim countries were pretty much forced to flee to israel do to violent rioting. the majority of the palestinians were not forced to leave israel. they were allowed to stay. they didnt because they were told by the neighbor countries an invasion was coming and many refused to share a nation named israel with jewish people. i am sorry if the black panthers or the hippie professor told you different.

it would be bad if ny was suddenly decided to be a jewish state like you mentioned because it never was to begin with. israel was a nation and is again. its not some new invention or anything. the word palestine is a variation of a roman word that was used when the jews were denied their land by the romans. 

sprinkle those facts on your cereal tomorrow morning.

prove me wrong.

----------


## Kratos

> just because someone is in a fight against someone that is different than who they are it does not mean it is ethnic cleansing. although both sides have committed war crimes there has been no ethnic cleansing.
> .


I disagree, Jews have been ethnic cleansed from just about every muslim nation in the world. Which is what would happen in untied palistine, which would eventually become non-secular. Jews are not welcome in muslim culture, and have been forced to either migrate, convert, or be eliminated by other means.

There is a good deal of evidence the same has happend to christians in Iraq under Saddam.

There was no ethnic cleansing in Israel, although people against Israel are quick to use scary words, and cry about rights violations that would have never been granted to jews in the first place.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> I disagree, Jews have been ethnic cleansed from just about every muslim nation in the world. Which is what would happen in untied palistine, which would eventually become non-secular. Jews are not welcome in muslim culture, and have been forced to either migrate, convert, or be eliminated by other means.
> 
> There is a good deal of evidence the same has happend to christians in Iraq under Saddam.
> 
> There was no ethnic cleansing in Israel, although people against Israel are quick to use scary words, and cry about rights violations that would have never been granted to jews in the first place.


kratos you missed what i was saying. we agree. im not saying jews havent been through ethnic cleansing scenarios. im saying they didnt commit ethnic cleansing against the palestinians.

perhaps i should been a little more specific. i can definitely see where the confusion happened. i updated it to stop other people from misunderstanding what i meant to say.

----------


## Kratos

> kratos you missed what i was saying. we agree. im not saying jews havent been through ethnic cleansing scenarios. im saying they didnt commit ethnic cleansing against the palestinians.
> 
> perhaps i should been a little more specific. i can definitely see where the confusion happened. i updated it to stop other people from misunderstanding what i meant to say.


I was just agreeing with what you were saying. Muslims are quick to cry ethnic cleansing, but are more guilty then any people in the world. I can cite examples of what ethnic cleansing is and where it was perpetrated if nessicary to anyone who disputes this.

----------


## eliteforce

But in those other countries where many jews fled for Palestine, like Syria and Iran, the jews that are still there have the same rights as everyone else and they are a very small percentage of the population, and they were to begin with..

After all this ethnic cleansing in Israel and Palestine, look at the cia world factbook and Palestinians are about 50% of the population in British mandate Palestine right now+ the golan heights, it doesn't mater what happened in other places in that past..

The situation now is a grouse oppresive aphartied in which 'israel' is a jewish supramact system .. look at the link i posted listing in just a few weeks the amount of violent settler attacks against Palestinians, not to mention what israels racist government does to them..that country is a kukluxklan state on steroids -its the worst racist oppresion in the world..

your arguments are like saying "well in Zimbabwe they keep attacking those white farmers so we're gonna start attacking blacks here in America, because of zimbabwe"


here it is again..this is what happens to the Palestinians NOW, everyday, this is jst a few of the injustices, it's really unbelievable that the american media almost never reports this stuff or what daily palestinian life is like
http://www.dcmessageboards.com/index...51&#entry34551

----------


## Kratos

> But in those other countries where many jews fled for Palestine, like Syria and Iran, the jews that are still there have the same rights as everyone else and they are a very small percentage of the population, and they were to begin with..
> 
> &[/url]


Bullshit, I have a good friend from Syria

Jews had lived in Syria since biblical times. The Jewish population of the area increased significantly after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. Throughout the generations, the main Jewish communities were to be found in Damascus and Aleppo. In 1943, the Jewish community of Syria had 30,000 members. In 1945, in an attempt to thwart efforts to establish a Jewish homeland, the government restricted immigration to Israel, and Jewish property was burned and looted. The government then froze Jewish bank accounts and confiscated their property.

Following Syrian independence from France in 1946, however, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, approximatly 10,000 to the United States, and another 5,000 to Israel, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

For the next decades, those Syrian Jews that remained were, in effect, hostages of a hostile regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members of their family behind. Jews were stripped of their citizenship, and experienced employment discrimination. They had their assets frozen and property confiscated. The community lived under siege, constantly under surveillance of the secret police.

The last Jews to leave Syria departed with the chief rabbi in October 1994. Prior to 1947, there were some 30,000 Jews who made up three distinct communities: the Kurdish-speaking Jews of Kamishli, the Jews of Aleppo with roots in Spain, and the original eastern Jews of Damascus, called Must'arab. Today, only a tiny remnant of these communities remains.


Iran....no, you're wrong there as well.

During the peak of the Persian Empire, Jews are thought to have comprised as much as 20% of the population. At the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there were approximately 140,000150,000 Jews living in Iran. A spike in anti-Jewish sentiment occurred after the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 and continued until 1953 due to the weakening of the central government and strengthening of the clergy in the course of political struggles between the Shah and Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh. Eliz Sanasarian estimates that in 19481953, about one-third of Iranian Jews, most of them poor, emigrated to Israel, estimates puts the total figure of emigrants to Israel in 1948-1978 at 70,000. the Islamic Revolution, many of the Iranian Jews, especially wealthy Jewish leaders in Tehran and many Jewish villages surrounding Esfahan and Kerman, left the country. In late 1979s, the people whom left was estimated at 50,00090,000. There are maybe 20k left today, being the largest jewish population outside Israel in the middle east...but c'mon, treated as equals? Don't give me that crap.

See the table below...how many muslims were displaced in the creation of Israel again?

Jewish Population in Arab Countries 1948-2001
1948 1958 1968 1976 2004 
Aden 8,000 800 0 0 0 
Algeria 140,000 130,000 1,500 1,000 Fewer than 100 
Egypt 75,000 40,000 1,000 400 Fewer than 100 
Iraq 135,000 6,000 2,500 350 Approx. 35 
Lebanon 5,000 6,000 3,000 400 Fewer than 100 
Libya 3 8,000 3,750 100 40 0 
Morocco 265,000 200,000 50,000 18,000 5,500 
Syria 30,000 5,000 4,000 4,500 Fewer than 100 
Tunisia 105,000 80,000 10,000 7,000 1,500 
Yemen 55,000 3,500 500 500 200 
TOTAL 856,000 475,050 72,600 32,190 Approx. 7,635 

Don't forget to add a minimum of 100k for Iran

----------


## Kratos

> l]


the rest of your post makes no sense as usual
just more of the blah blah blah apartid, blah blah blah opression, blah blah blah ethnic cleasing, blah blah racism.

You provide few facts and just vent your opinions as usual.

----------


## amcon

> I think people who start these threads are brainwashed propaganda fed muslims who have an axe to grind on the issue and hope to recruit popular opinion to their side of the argument. Both sides are wrong but for different reasons.


very intelligent answer... 

i will add my two cents to the op question, isreal - it is there God give land

----------


## amcon

to the op what was your original though of what way the poll would go?

----------


## crazy_rocks

> But in those other countries where many jews fled for Palestine, like Syria and Iran, the jews that are still there have the same rights as everyone else and they are a very small percentage of the population, and they were to begin with..
> 
> After all this ethnic cleansing in Israel and Palestine, look at the cia world factbook and Palestinians are about 50% of the population in British mandate Palestine right now+ the golan heights, it doesn't mater what happened in other places in that past..
> 
> The situation now is a grouse oppresive aphartied in which 'israel' is a jewish supramact system .. look at the link i posted listing in just a few weeks the amount of violent settler attacks against Palestinians, not to mention what israels racist government does to them..that country is a kukluxklan state on steroids -its the worst racist oppresion in the world..
> 
> your arguments are like saying "well in Zimbabwe they keep attacking those white farmers so we're gonna start attacking blacks here in America, because of zimbabwe"
> 
> 
> ...


hell yeah i love rolling up my sleeves and getting into it.

everyone who lives in israel has rights regardless of race.

once again the israelis have not been committing ethnic cleansing against anyone. they are fighting because they both believe the land belongs 
to them.

the israeli government is not racist. they allow people of every race to live in israel. didnt you know that. it is nothing like the kkk like you stated.

the comparison you made that -i supposedly would have made- about zimbabwe is not comparable to what i have said about israel and palestine at all. you see the israelis and the palestinians are neighbors. the both have a claim of the same land and they fight because of it. i would not say blacks in america should be attacked because blacks in africa are attacking white farmers. the relation of the situation would be non existent in that case therefore i would not come to that conclusion. were you able to soak that up?

you can post all the links you want of articles on mistreatment. unfortunately people do those kinds of things regardless of what side of the debate they are on. there are americans who have committed war crimes against the germans in ww2. does that mean we shouldnt have been involved? not that the information in the article you provided was a war crime but you get what im saying...maybe. it does not change the fact that israel has the right to exist as it has in the past. the land claim is legit. palestine is a variation of a roman word used by the romans when they denied the jews their home. suddenly there was a thing called palestinians, and yes i know the jews and arabs were fighting before this event took place. you need to challenge me on the issues of the foundation. so far you have not and will not. your knowledge on the subject matter is mediocre at best.

i said prove me wrong. i was expecting some sort of informational challenge not a simple debate of common sense, ethics, and guess who committed a crime against who which in reality still does not change the facts of the situation. where do they make them like you?

zionism forever.

your turn.

----------


## eliteforce

"everyone who lives in israel has rights regurdless of race"

but 1.5 million Palestinians are fenced into the Gaza strip, most are refugees from other parts of the country, they cannot leave there-it's an ethnic containment; the WB is divided into several cantons with 3 million in this confinement, even before the suicide bombings the israelis drewup a scheme for the west bank and gaza that included "jewish only" roads leading to jewish settlements-which enforces the aphartied and robs palestinians of land-which is confiscated..THE RESULT IS THAT THESE 4 MILLION PALESTINIANS ARE CONTAINED IN LESS THAN 10% OF THE COUNTRY-DEFINE APHARTIED, then theres the jewish settler attacks as listed in that thread; during british and turkish times it was 1 country with freedom of movement, not segregated

this is not "blah blah blah" this is a description of the situation there NOW..listing all this info about jews leaving arab countries doesn't change that, it's a separate issue , it doesn't justify it using a too wrongs make a right argument..

It's not like israel is telling the arab countries "take these jews back who came here and we'll take the Palestinian refugees from arab countries i'm not even talking about Palestinian refugees outside israel/palestine i'm just talking about the oppressive zionist system INTERNALLY.

You keep trying to pretend that Israel is like America or Europe, "shared democratic values", it's so absurd.

segregation .. the Israeli arabs in Israel have rights but not equal rights, they have separate schools and , the state spends 9 times per jewish pupil as they do per arab one, they have faced land confiscation, arab municipalities like nazareth and ummalfahm face confinement-they are not given as much room to expand as jewish communities are, the israeli house demolition tactic is widly used against arabs in israel itself, the bedoin have been forced into shanty towns and then their shanty towns are bulldozed, poverty is much higher amongst the arab population.. it's not as bad as the wb or gaza but it's not a peaceful co-existence.

is short you say they have rights but they don't think that

Racist measures against Palestinians in Israel
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10760.shtml

In Israel, intermarriage viewed as treason
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10793.shtml

Israel targeting fishermen, farmers in Gaza
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10767.shtml

Israel destroys Gaza boats and lives 
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10757.shtml

Israel targets medical teams
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10757.shtml

Israel targets medical teams
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10755.shtml

In Jerusalem, separate and unequal 
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10747.shtml

Eviction of Israel's Bedouin parallels army's West Bank tactics 
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10739.shtml

Israel brings Gaza entry restrictions to West Bank 
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10718.shtml

etc etc

----------


## eliteforce

It's much more like kukluxklan tactics on steroids then it is american treatment of germans, americans didn't occupy germany and then go around burning their firelds and trashing their houses for the next 30 years

your comparing the jewish settler violence against palestinians to american occupation of germany post wwii :Icon Rolleyes: 

"you need to challenge me on the issues of the foundation. so far you have not and will not."

it doesn't matter exactly when it was called Palestine-that was only 2000 years ago, the 5 million Palestinians there call it Palestine and that is their nationality-thats all that matters, and it was called Palestine for the next 2000 up until 1948 years..look at any map or newspaper from before 1948 and it refers to the levant as Palestine, thats the foundation, if the Palestinians wnat to call themselves Cannans, then theres the issue of the Canaans..the israelis are israelis because they call themselves israeli, the 2 nationalities are there, there isn't any "foundation" issue.

also it was the Byzantines and Crusaders that expelled Jews and Muslims from Palestine (and the crusaders murdered many people in a series of massacres against every man woman and child in a given area that they were attacking-including the total extermination of Jerusalem when the conquered it-every muslim and jewish person was killed) and those who were expelled took refuge in Arab territory until the Arabs conquered and reconquered Palestine, in both cases Jews were given permission to return as soon as palestine was liberated, some decided to stay where they were because it took like 100 years to conquer and reconquer, thats why you had syrian and iraqi jews etc. it wasn't the Arabs that thru them out, and Arabs and middle eastern jews never had serious problems with each other until the zionists arrived
There were already Palestinian Jews there when the zionists started to arrive from europe.. so why should Arabs pay the price when they were the ones giving jews refuge during western crusader genocide attacks?




> you can post all the links you want of articles on mistreatment. unfortunately people do those kinds of things regardless of what side of the debate they are on. there are americans who have committed war crimes against the germans in ww2. does that mean we shouldnt have been involved? not that the information in the article you provided was a war crime but you get what im saying...maybe. it does not change the fact that israel has the right to exist as it has in the past. the land claim is legit. palestine is a variation of a roman word used by the romans when they denied the jews their home. suddenly there was a thing called palestinians, and yes i know the jews and arabs were fighting before this event took place. you need to challenge me on the issues of the foundation. so far you have not and will not. your knowledge on the subject matter is mediocre at best.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> "everyone who lives in israel has rights regurdless of race"
> 
> but 1.5 million Palestinians are fenced into the Gaza strip, most are refugees from other parts of the country, they cannot leave there-it's an ethnic containment; the WB is divided into several cantons with 3 million in this confinement, even before the suicide bombings the israelis drewup a scheme for the west bank and gaza that included "jewish only" roads leading to jewish settlements-which enforces the aphartied and robs palestinians of land-which is confiscated..THE RESULT IS THAT THESE 4 MILLION PALESTINIANS ARE CONTAINED IN LESS THAN 10% OF THE COUNTRY-DEFINE APHARTIED, then theres the jewish settler attacks as listed in that thread; during british and turkish times it was 1 country with freedom of movement, not segregated
> 
> this is not "blah blah blah" this is a description of the situation there NOW..listing all this info about jews leaving arab countries doesn't change that, it's a separate issue , it doesn't justify it using a too wrongs make a right argument..
> 
> It's not like israel is telling the arab countries "take these jews back who came here and we'll take the Palestinian refugees from arab countries i'm not even talking about Palestinian refugees outside israel/palestine i'm just talking about the oppressive zionist system INTERNALLY.
> 
> You keep trying to pretend that Israel is like America or Europe, "shared democratic values", it's so absurd.
> ...



ethnic containment? not exactly. there are arabs with israeli citizenship as well as people from iran, and africa. yeah israel is really racist...NOT. i tried telling you this. about the palestinians. where else are they suppose to go? they are there because they rejected israeli citizenship along time ago. by now they have become such a threat to national security the palestinian leadership use terrorism. they are not there because of racism. their arab neighbors wont even take them. you should know this. When israel captured east jerusalem in the six day war the Arabs in the city were told they could be citizens and they turned down the offer. did that soak in? if not squeeze the sponge and drain out the lies and half truths into the toilet. now soak up the clean water. the palestinians are violent and do suicide bombings over an issue they are wrong about and you defend them. where do they make them like you? (rhetorical, i know you cannot answer that) every time a palestinian dies in violence they turn the funeral into a hate speech. that person had an individual life. they exploit everything.

the whole description of the jews from other countries does change everything because you said the israeli government was racist. i gave you a 
fact that proves you wrong. you see the zionist system is not oppressive internally. you see situations like this have a 3 dimensional view. theres more to it than a birds eye view like a map. 

no i dont keep trying to pretend israel is like america or europe which you know nothing about anyways. i know israel is different. they have to worry about survival. things are not gonna be the same as in america or europe. they are a small country with a small population. they need to maintain their identity. something you for some reason will not comprehend to. 

you mentioned school funding. israel has a few different school systems, i think four. if you live in a high income area you go to a school with more funding. so even some jewish children have better schools than other jewish children. they have private schools and schools that are not so religious. private schools have better education. this is nothing shocking. besides all that if you think its messed up i can see your point. its not a crazy conclusion. it is unfortunate. but you are unaware of the slow moving reforms that are distributing money to help fix this problem. it is a slow process though. things like that always are. hopefully things work out.

yes israeli arabs do you have rights. the biggest difference is the israeli arabs are not required to serve in the military. isnt that nice? they can if they want to though which is also good. wow thats f***ing fair. aside from arab israeli rights once the palestinian leadership gives up terrorism against israel they will have better independence. they know this. im wondering when they will really learn though. how about you? i know your just gonna say thats not true. the israelis are destroying homes because they are fighting weapons smuggling which is happening to support terrorists. because of this the security zone had to be expanded. this smuggling is done through underground tunnels that go to peoples homes from egypt. i will give you this though. weapons are not the only thing smuggled through the tunnels. im sure that the person who lives in the house knew the risk. wouldnt you agree? it would only make sense that you do. you mentioned poverty. over 100,000 palestinians had been working in israel with the same pay as the israelis. when the violence heated up again around the year 2000 along with the war that was ignited by terrorists. these events screwed up the palestinians economy. then israel had to do things to keep itself safe such as limiting the number of palestinian workers who were coming into israel because that was one way terrorists were sneaking in. this did hurt the palestinians economy. thats the way the ball bounces but its definitly not racist. thats what happens when the palestinian authority supports terrorism. i guess the palestinian leadership thought it was that necessary to use terrorism. well so did israel feel its measures were necessary to keep its citizens safe. you wanna know what. im not gonna stop there. according to the human development report palestinians during this harsh economic time were categorized in the medium human development. that was slightly behind iran and at the same time was considered to be slightly ahead of syria. they were not doing to bad compared to their arab neighbors. just because israel was doing much better it does not mean there is some social injustice. someone has to be doing better. are you against the idea that people have the ability to be rich? are you a communist?

with the argument you have been giving you probably consider it some sort of aparthied. every time you try and spell aparthied you spell aphartied 
instead. when you sound that word out the way you spell it then the word would then be pronounced a-fart-ied. haha like farts or something. you know the letter "p" and "h" together make an "f" sound right? 


ok break time. get some water. thats a lot (not alot, its two...(not too, thats means in addition its two as in the number 2)...words "a" and "lot") of information for you in one sitting. i hope i didnt just confuse you. the reason why i say its a lot of information in one sitting is if you dont agree with me from my previous posts then obviously you have a limited intellect.




> It's much more like kukluxklan tactics on steroids then it is american treatment of germans, americans didn't occupy germany and then go around burning their firelds and trashing their houses for the next 30 years
> 
> your comparing the jewish settler violence against palestinians to american occupation of germany post wwii
> 
> "you need to challenge me on the issues of the foundation. so far you have not and will not."
> 
> it doesn't matter exactly when it was called Palestine-that was only 2000 years ago, the 5 million Palestinians there call it Palestine and that is their nationality-thats all that matters, and it was called Palestine for the next 2000 up until 1948 years..look at any map or newspaper from before 1948 and it refers to the levant as Palestine, thats the foundation, if the Palestinians wnat to call themselves Cannans, then theres the issue of the Canaans..the israelis are israelis because they call themselves israeli, the 2 nationalities are there, there isn't any "foundation" issue.
> 
> also it was the Byzantines and Crusaders that expelled Jews and Muslims from Palestine (and the crusaders murdered many people in a series of massacres against every man woman and child in a given area that they were attacking-including the total extermination of Jerusalem when the conquered it-every muslim and jewish person was killed) and those who were expelled took refuge in Arab territory until the Arabs conquered and reconquered Palestine, in both cases Jews were given permission to return as soon as palestine was liberated, some decided to stay where they were because it took like 100 years to conquer and reconquer, thats why you had syrian and iraqi jews etc. it wasn't the Arabs that thru them out, and Arabs and middle eastern jews never had serious problems with each other until the zionists arrived
> There were already Palestinian Jews there when the zionists started to arrive from europe.. so why should Arabs pay the price when they were the ones giving jews refuge during western crusader genocide attacks?


now before i type my reply i want to share something funny with you off topic. when you said israel is like the kkk on steroids the word steroids highlighted as usual on this site along with every other serm and AI. i dont know its just funny funny considering the website we are on but the topic is nothing of drugs. anyways...

i know its not like the american treatment of germans. i was making an example that people on both sides of the fight commit war crimes whether their nations intent is honorable or not. it doesnt mean i was actually comparing ww2 to israel and palestine situation. that really went over your head. not a big deal, back to the issue.

yes it does matter when it was called palestine because before it was palestine is was israel. thats the foundation. the issue is self evident. you left that part out because you know your WRONG haha. just like the jews had their land taken from them they took it right back because guess what, it belonged to them before palestine. dont be a hypocrite. the palestinians took the land just as you claim the jews did. you have no choice in being a hypocrite though. your argument is weak.

yes crusader kicked out jews and muslims. jerusalem was taken from the jews many times. the crusaders were not the first to throw out the jews. you said the israelis and arabs didnt have serious problems before the zionists. yeah besides all the wars they had, holy crap. thats like saying that the crusades were the only ones that threw out the jews. souces vary but around 638 AD the arabs took jerusalem from the jews. that was before the crusades. see the jews and arabs were fighting before the zionists arrived. zionism is the rebirth of the jews getting their land BACK. so zionism would no worse than the jews having their land to begin with just like in ancient times. so in that case what are you saying? do you even know? you just gave me that argument. thats cool though. look on the bright side, you dont have to tell any of your friends you lost against a pro zionist.

the palestinians didnt have to pay the price. they could have stayed after israel became a nation again. they are paying a price now because their stupid leadership supports terrorism.

"There were already Palestinian Jews there when the zionists started to arrive from europe" 
and if they were jews they should have stayed like the rest of the palestinians that were allowed to when the zionist arrived. your to easy man. 

lets see how many times it takes you to read this and comprehend to it.
obviously you know your wasting your time since you know your wrong. i know you know your wrong because i know im right. ok i admit you could be wrong without knowing it, thats true. however not in this case because this is such common sense that there is no way you could actually believe what you are saying which would mean you know your wrong which also means you must obviously know your wasting your time like i said. 

you have bee debunked. i will be waiting for your reply. i dare you to challenge me this time pllleeeaaase. i know you cant or you already would have.

zionism is great.

----------


## eliteforce

>When israel captured east jerusalem in the six day war the Arabs in the city were told they could be citizens and they turned down the offer.

yes but the offer extended to ONLY the arabs of e.jerusalem! the rest were denied, a-fart-tied-however it's spelled, the israelis then went forward with jewish only roads and jewish only settlements, one of their ministers early on compared the Palestinians to kockroaches in a closed bottle, that these restictions and the settlements were designed to suffocate them and encourage them to leave the country-a sort of slow painful expulsion; had they made all the Palestinians citizens at that point they would have had freedom of movement throughout the country AND they would have had enogh seats in the Parliament to fight the kind of oppression they were being subjected to- a BI-NATIONAL state, they never offered this even though Yassir Arafat in Lebanon said he would welcome the idea of a 'unity' state, or Palestinian state in the 1967 territoris as early as the late seventies, in other words the Palestinians were accepting 242, Egypt and Saudi Arabia indicated they would accept 242 BEFORE the yom kippur war.

mmm the rest of what your saying is kinda rehash.. but there was NO Jewish-Arab war in the middle ages,first lets goto Rome- up to the Byznatine period, The islamic caliphate followed (jewish liberation)-no jewish-arab war then-the caliphate was the worlds super power so obviously no jewish-arab war then, the crusaders-arab-jews were united against them-from there your basically going into the Ottoman period until the end of wwi - when exactly was this jewish-arab war you talk about?

----------


## xlxBigSexyxlx

Wheres buffedguy when you need him?  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## crazy_rocks

> >When israel captured east jerusalem in the six day war the Arabs in the city were told they could be citizens and they turned down the offer.
> 
> yes but the offer extended to ONLY the arabs of e.jerusalem! the rest were denied, a-fart-tied-however it's spelled, the israelis then went forward with jewish only roads and jewish only settlements, one of their ministers early on compared the Palestinians to kockroaches in a closed bottle, that these restictions and the settlements were designed to suffocate them and encourage them to leave the country-a sort of slow painful expulsion; had they made all the Palestinians citizens at that point they would have had freedom of movement throughout the country AND they would have had enogh seats in the Parliament to fight the kind of oppression they were being subjected to- a BI-NATIONAL state, they never offered this even though Yassir Arafat in Lebanon said he would welcome the idea of a 'unity' state, or Palestinian state in the 1967 territoris as early as the late seventies, in other words the Palestinians were accepting 242, Egypt and Saudi Arabia indicated they would accept 242 BEFORE the yom kippur war.
> 
> mmm the rest of what your saying is kinda rehash.. but there was NO Jewish-Arab war in the middle ages,first lets goto Rome- up to the Byznatine period, The islamic caliphate followed (jewish liberation)-no jewish-arab war then-the caliphate was the worlds super power so obviously no jewish-arab war then, the crusaders-arab-jews were united against them-from there your basically going into the Ottoman period until the end of wwi - when exactly was this jewish-arab war you talk about?






> yes but the offer extended to ONLY the arabs of e.jerusalem!


yes, obviously




> jewish only roads and jewish only settlements


yeah i know. theres a thing called israel





> settlements were designed to suffocate them and encourage them to leave the country-a sort of slow painful expulsion


that is your opinion. not everyones fact.





> had they made all the Palestinians citizens at that point they would have had freedom of movement throughout the country AND they would have had enogh seats in the Parliament...


whos fault is that? they should have took citizenship.





> ...Parliament to fight the kind of oppression they were being subjected to- a BI-NATIONAL state...


any oppression they are under is the result of the palestinians own terrorism and scum bucket leadership. not common sense zionism. i hope the day comes when the palestinians see through their filthy leadership. may they find peace.





> they never offered this even though Yassir Arafat in Lebanon said he would welcome the idea of a 'unity' state..


yes it was offered. by saying what you said you are not arguing with me your arguing with factual history. thats pretty gnarly dude. cheers arafat is in hell





> mmm the rest of what your saying is kinda rehash


so are you blaming me or yourself. if what i was saying was rehash then so is what you were saying. remember when i was reacting to almost everything you were saying? yeah. whats wrong? are you afraid to argue with me on the points that you consider rehash? thanks for rehashing. it allowed me to disprove you on the same thing more than once, wooowwwiiieee.





> but there was NO Jewish-Arab war in the middle ages


ok ok ok. we disagreed on a lot of things. some opinion. some fact. to get into history and then deny this is absolutely insane. the thing is you dont even need to say that to support your argument. i know. maybe your just being a smart ass. nah, your that ignorant. not only did this happen in the middle ages but long before then. they have been fighting for thousands of years. everyone knows this. this does not mean i am saying there was never co-existence. i wouldnt say that. its impossible to rule that out even if it were true. there are examples of that as well. just look it up. legitimate sources only, no pro ahmadinejad websites. you will be alright.

this is what your gonna do. your gonna go look up a timeline or something. you know what to do. your not in grade school. if you were able to find all that propaganda stuff im sure you can find real stuff. you have the world at your finger tips. better yet go to the library. im sure you know how to look things up. im not gonna hold your hand. thats your leg work guy.

it appears that your argument has depressed. this a basic phase in arguing with anti zionists, communists, hippies, pc people, michael moore fans, douche bags, fags--joking. i dont hate them. they attempt a small challenge a few times. then they give a lengthy challenge. not hard to debunk but it contains a lot of info. after that they play the deny game and blah blah blah. maybe you will be a new case study. exceptions do exist. you create your own reality. its up to you. are you up to the challenge? i am.

i dont mind the lengthy argument though. this debate has gotten my post count up so i can get a source check. i need to find some pct yo.

i hope you like the format i used for this reply post. its pretty sweet.


long live zionism

your turn :Stickpoke:

----------


## crazy_rocks

> Wheres buffedguy when you need him?


nah this is totally under control. this junk is easy.

hey is the avatar pic your gf? :Bbblush:

----------


## eliteforce

_Originally Posted by eliteforce View Post
yes but the offer extended to ONLY the arabs of e.jerusalem!
yes, obviously
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteforce View Post
jewish only roads and jewish only settlements
yeah i know. theres a thing called israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteforce View Post
settlements were designed to suffocate them and encourage them to leave the country-a sort of slow painful expulsion
that is your opinion. not everyones fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteforce View Post
had they made all the Palestinians citizens at that point they would have had freedom of movement throughout the country AND they would have had enogh seats in the Parliament...
whos fault is that? they should have took citizenship._

CrazyRocks-your going in a circle here-especially when you say "whos fault is that? they should have took citizenship." obviously that's the point that was just retorted! who you trying kid?? looks like yourself

and you never told us when this arab-jewish middle ages war that you insist happened was--it's not there ok, there was no jewish-arab war in the middle ages..

you keep posting last just to get the final word but you have run out of ideas and then resort to name calling.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> CrazyRocks-your going in a circle here-especially when you say "whos fault is that? they should have took citizenship." obviously that's the point that was just retorted! who you trying kid?? looks like yourself


im going in a circle? im just reacting to you. oh no were you rehashing like you said about me? i dont need to try and kid anyone especially myself. i have facts on my side. 




> and you never told us when this arab-jewish middle ages war that you insist happened was--it's not there ok, there was no jewish-arab war in the middle ages..


no fighting between arabs and jews in ancient times? wow. did you even look it up? so you think your debunking me because i did not provide a link to a source? i guess your afraid to look for yourself and find out your wrong.--correction, you already know your wrong. you just wont admit it. history of arabs and jews fighting in ancient times is everywhere. its common knowledge. this is absolutely silly.

i even admitted that there were cases of co-existence and you still persist with lies.





> you keep posting last just to get the final word but you have run out of ideas and then resort to name calling.


no i was calling names before my last reply. i just like adding some life to debates. im not a monotone person. i.e. all the other random stuff i said that wasnt about calling names. i dont need to run out of ideas if you keep giving false ones. even so wouldnt you also just be trying to get the last word? it doesnt matter if i get the last word anyways. i debunked you. great glory is mine.

seriously is this the best you have? after all you claim your right.

it seems that all you can hide behind now is your claim that the jews and arabs never fought in ancient times. you cant even hide behind that because your purely wrong. let me guess, you think that if i dont post a link to a source then its not true right? its simple. just LOOK. not sure why you would hide behind saying jews and arabs didnt fight in ancient times anyways since its not necessary for your overall point. here is the weird thing. this is the first time i have ever heard anyone try and deny that they fought along time ago. 

israel or palestine? israel.

zionism everlasting.

 :Bbswinging:

----------


## Kratos

November 23, 1937, Saudi Arabia's King Ibn Saud told British Colonel H.R.P. Dickson: "Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus) and their subsequent rejection of His chosen Prophet." He added "that for a Muslim to kill a Jew, or for him to be killed by a Jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty."

The Arab countries see to it that even young schoolchildren are taught to hate Jews. The Syrian Minister of Education wrote in 1968: "The hatred which we indoctrinate into the minds of our children from their birth is sacred."

A 1977 Jordanian teachers' manual for first-graders used on the West Bank instructs educators to "implant in the soul of the pupil the rule of Islam that if the enemies occupy even one inch of the Islamic lands, jihad (holy war) becomes imperative for every Muslim." 

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.

In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.

Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854­859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.

A few examples for you elite

----------


## crazy_rocks

> Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.


kratos. you are right about all of it.

however the segment above is especially interesting because it is recorded in a islamic book called the hadith. every knowledgeable muslim knows of the hadith. it is a book of the muslims own history aside from the quran. in medina muhammad told the jews he flew to a temple or some other site with other prophets or a angel or something. the jews laughed at him because the temple or whatever site it was had been destroyed. everyone knew this. he was humiliated. he returned with an army.

of course eliteforce will explain any history of jews and arabs fighting as modern day zionists using a time machine to go back and change history or something.

kratos, may you experience great maintenance of successful anabolic cycles.
may every anti zionist receive side effects.

----------


## eliteforce

Assuming these examples kratos listed weren't exaggerated or manufactured by zionist academics, for example the 1465 one .. but none of those took place in Palestine and if "Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344)." then why were so many of them still there in the early 1900s before they migrated to israel, did they change back.. I read an article on Haaretz once in which they interviewed an elderly Iraqi immigrant who insisted that as a boy the Jews in Iraq continued to have good relations with their muslim and christian neighbors until israels creation in 1948-when things became ugly and they were forced to leave.

these examples you posted-where do they come from, most of them are so long ago which makes a detailed account difficult,
19th century-Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco-these places were under British and French rule and they kept law and order, if something like that was happening there should have been police protection or justice in courts. 

But given, there are ancient examples of pogroms in muslims areas but it's not happening anywhere NOW .. right NOW Israel is the only Apartheid state and the Pogroms I listed that take place against Palestinians almost everyday are happening NOW, there are still Jews in Syria and Morocco and Iran NOW and there are no pogroms! so i guess morocco can send israel an apology for this incident that may have happened 200 years ago in return for Palestinians having basic human rights like everyone else in the world-NOW.

should white people in America have their houses demolished, lands taken away, be forced to live in ghettos NOW for things done to blacks in the 17 and 1800s..it's such an absurd logic in the first place.. i don't know why we started talking about the middle ages in the first place..

btw in previous threads on this subject at least I have said that a solution to this conflict is israel withdrawing to the 1967 border and connecting gaza and the wb by land, a road or something which would make israel give up a little more land through the desert-the standard PA/PLO position, or a single bi-national state .. i debate on this forum with people who take the likudnik position of refusing to offer a solution and continuing the oppression as Palestinians are pushed into smaller confined tracks of ghettos, and their population becomes a larger % of the total-creating an increasingly unsustainable apartheid until it collapses..

zionism everlasting - define zionism? 
what is there now is not something that can avoid diplomatic and economic isolation forever and israels main trading partner is europe , if they don't make changes now they will be in the same or worse situation in 20 years.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> Assuming these examples kratos listed weren't exaggerated or manufactured by zionist academics, for example the 1465 one .. but none of those took place in Palestine and if "Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344)." then why were so many of them still there in the early 1900s before they migrated to israel, did they change back.. I read an article on Haaretz once in which they interviewed an elderly Iraqi immigrant who insisted that as a boy the Jews in Iraq continued to have good relations with their muslim and christian neighbors until israels creation in 1948-when things became ugly and they were forced to leave.


i would be more than happy to answer your questions. take it easy on me though. i dont know everything but i feel i have addressed these question pretty good.

its interesting that you resorted to the rewriting of history theory. thats what muhammed claimed the jews did with the original quran which in his explanation became the jews religious writings. this was his case for why the holy land didnt belong to the jews. one obstacle remains. proving that the history was manufactured. this cannot be done. there are to many artifacts and ancient writings. rewriting the history would be a two dimensional view for an explanation. people forget about the third dimension. politicians, and commanders, all kinds of people make this mistake. the third dimensional view needed to support the manufactured history as you suggested would require a time machine. that probably sounded funny. its interesting that you brought up this manufactured history idea because i just joked in my last post that your gonna resort to the idea the modern zionists used a time machine to create history to support the land claim. 

hear is what else is wrong with the manufactured history idea besides no time machines. if it is proven that the manufactured history idea is false then the zionists claims are legit.

historical records of jews and arabs fighting exist in many places from many different sources. these ideas didnt pop out of nowhere in the middle of the 20th century. you said none of those fights took place im palestine. its not simply about the question of did the jews and palestinians fight back then. there were arabs before palestinians. you denied jews and arabs were fighting along time ago. you didnt limit the argument of fighting between jews and palestinians only. the jews and arabs did fight. even so the jews and palestinians did fight to. jews and arabs have been fighting on and off since ancient times.

why were so many jews in existence in the early 1900's considering they were forced to convert in the past? there is more than one reason. jews have actually been returning to what is modern israel since last half of the 1800's. many people dont know that. besides that you could have answered that for yourself. what would you have done if they were forcing you to convert to another religion? many would resist in one way or another. it would have been pretty hard to force every individual jew in the region to convert. some could have played along until the matter blew over while they studied their original religion secretly. this has happened to people throughout history. even today. come up with a scenario, the chances are that someone who tried to survive thought of it to. 

there were periods of peace and war between people of different religions in the middle east back in the day. its not like there was this war that lasted every single day for thousands of years straight but fighting happened repeatedly for a very long time. there is the story of abraham in the bible and in the quran. after abraham had his sons fighting would pick up a notch years later. it was a family feud. pretty stupid huh? even before abraham there was fighting but it wasnt nearly as bad and hate fueled. it was pretty much because the jews believed in a supreme god and it was totally crazy to the pagans. it made the jews an easy target. it wasnt anything that couldnt be managed though. more fighting happened after muhammed the prophet did his thing around 500 AD. thats when things got really serious. now maybe you dont believe in the biblical history or the quran and you wanna call bullshit. ok, i respect your opinion. i believe in freedom of religion. but its not about what me and you believe. its about what the ones who opposed each other believed. humans were fighting each other all over the globe throughout history whether it was about land or differences. 


you are right. exactly. A+. i even mentioned that earlier. like i said there were periods of war and co-existence between jews and the arabs. once israel became a nation again there was violence and rioting against jews in many countries. many jews decided to leave and go to israel since it was apart of the history anyways. that does not mean every jew left where they were living prior to the rebirth of israel in 1948. did most or some jews flee to israel from these countries in 1948? i dont know. 





> But given, there are ancient examples of pogroms in muslims areas but it's not happening anywhere NOW .. right NOW Israel is the only Apartheid state and the Pogroms I listed that take place against Palestinians almost everyday are happening NOW, there are still Jews in Syria and Morocco and Iran NOW and there are no pogroms! so i guess morocco can send israel an apology for this incident that may have happened in ancient times in return for Palestinians having basic human rights like everyone else in the world-NOW.


that statement about there not being any pogroms right now does not argue against any points i have made. no israel is not an apartheid state. are you rehashing like you said i was doing? i am aware there are jews in other 
arab countries with no serious problems. that statement does not debate anything i have presented so far. once the palestinian leadership stops using terrorism against israel, once the palestinians stop abusing their children by indoctrinating them into hate and terrorism things will get better for them. if they stopped this then the israelis wouldnt have to defend themselves. 

heres the model. palestinian terrorist attacks-->jews find a way to stay safe and or fight back-->makes things tough for a palestinian-->palestinian attacks even more. the cycle repeats. whats wrong? is it wrong for israel to defend itself? no. would things get better for palestinians if they stopped terrorism? yes because they bring most of their problems to themselves as a result of terrorism. if someone punched you would you punch them back? i know i would. if this person who punched you got arrested and said it was your fault that they got arrested would you say A) no it wasnt. i was defending myself, if you didnt punch me you would never have gotten arrested. or would you say? B) your right i never should have defended myself. i will consider you next time even though you attacked me. 





> btw in previous threads on this subject at least I have said that a solution to this conflict is israel withdrawing to the 1967 border and connecting gaza and the wb by land, a road or something which would make israel give up a little more land through the desert-the standard PA/PLO position, or a single bi-national state .. i debate on this forum with people who take the likudnik position of refusing to offer a solution and continuing the oppression as Palestinians are pushed into smaller confined tracks of ghettos, and their population becomes a larger % of the total-creating an increasingly unsustainable apartheid until it collapses..



that is an interesting point. every time israel makes a peace deal by giving up land the deal gets broken. the palestinians keep attacking. this portrays the idea that the palestinian leadership is not concerned with making their personal backyards bigger but to deny israel altogether inch by inch. the leader of iran is even more vocal about it. please lets not get into that though. this thread is wild enough. most people dont have a solution that would truly work. can you blame them? look at how many people tried to bring peace between israel and palestine. eventually it will happen believe me. if the person who brings this peace has their own agenda then it will not last though. the israeli palestinian conflict is a situation waiting for someone to exploit.





> zionism forever (or at least for another 20 or 30 years)


lol. that was a good response to my closing sentence. you may be right. there may be an event. people and nations are plotting, thats for sure. whether you like israel or not they have a very effective military. they will not make it easy.

i say zionism forever because this interruption of the jews in israel will be temporary and zionism will return. im not trying to shove that down your throat though. its not a debating point. its only my opinion just like your opinion of zionism only lasting for another 20 or 30 years.

i felt that your last response was more academic. maybe i clarified some points. that does not mean i think i changed your mind. i dont plan on changing your mind. i know im not going to change your mind just like your not gonna change mine. thats just how we are. we are all ignorant in a way...especially you. lol im just joking. im not trying to be a jerk again but sometimes i just cant resist. like i said before i like my discussions i little lively. anyways im just saying perhaps certain things are a little more clear now. i dont know. i enjoyed discussing these points. 

the honor of zionism

----------


## eliteforce

Saying there was no jewish-arab violence for the entire middle ages maybe going to far but i still think their relations were pretty good and they tended to unite against invaders, particularly the christian byzantines and crusaders, and I do think that zionist academics will have an agenda to exaggerate violent incidents between the 2 while downplaying cooperation, and that Jews worked with the islamic caliphate extensively like in spain.

heres another article about jewish nazi tensions and zionism in the 1930s, notice the part about the Transfer Agreement (an agreement zionists made with Nazi Germany), zionists will say articles like this are "anti-semetic" but like in Yemen (the baby snatching incidents, zionists, especially early on have shown an extreme determination to achive their goals and they try to keep things they have done or do under wraps.

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scr...s/jdecwar.html

----------


## Kratos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_Boycott_of_1933

Are you stupid or something elite or just thick, they were fighting for their rights which had been violated with a peacful boycott. A boycott that didn't take hold in America until the Germans boycotted them.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> Saying there was no jewish-arab violence for the entire middle ages maybe going to far but i still think their relations were pretty good and they tended to unite against invaders, particularly the christian byzantines and crusaders, and I do think that zionist academics will have an agenda to exaggerate violent incidents between the 2 while downplaying cooperation, and that Jews worked with the islamic caliphate extensively like in spain.


im happy to hear you acknowledge that there was violence back then considering what you said before. wars start and end which means there will be a period of peace. the peace experienced was always temporary. thats why everyone says they have been fighting for thousands of years. as the ages move these situations became more severe. after muhammed the prophet things got worse. during the 1930's things got worse again. right now the jews are in a period of constant conflict. between situations there are brief periods of no fighting. thats where people exaggerate the coexistence. yes at a specific moment there may be no fight but look at our age in general. there is a struggle. it was a clean flow during the 1900's. you had ww2 and the holocaust and years later the rebirth of israel which meant more fighting to present day. at the same time their was a period during our lifetime that the fighting between israel and the palestinians was low or nonexistent. this was the same age of struggle because that peace was temporary.

we both know historians are very knowledgeable with a subject matter. watch a good documentary and you learn stuff you didnt know or something you knew a little about or didnt have that true in depth knowledge. these zionist academics have history. when there is a situation thse historians speak of someone is gonna claim they are exaggerating because they dont like the way it goes. are there people who do exaggerate? maybe. there must be somewhere. most if not all of what the jewish historians say can be backed up. it doesnt take a historian to confirm information. are there people who claim the historians are exaggerating when they actually are not? definitely.

i have beat this to death. my penis is getting tired. 

*****************



> heres another article about jewish nazi tensions and zionism in the 1930s, notice the part about the Transfer Agreement (an agreement zionists made with Nazi Germany), zionists will say articles like this are "anti-semetic" but like in Yemen (the baby snatching incidents, zionists, especially early on have shown an extreme determination to achive their goals and they try to keep things they have done or do under wraps.
> 
> http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scr...s/jdecwar.html


i feel this a getting a little off topic. this is about israel or palestine. it is not a matter of me defending the jews in every situation around the world that you choose to bring up. 

i read the article. the caption under the photograph had the claim that the jews started ww2. this is no good because everyone knows hitler had goals of taking europe. he did not decide this when the jews took their action. he may have used it kind of like that building he had burned and blamed it on the communists. hitler knew who he wanted to be. he had an agenda. ww2 was like a repeat of ww1 so nothing is surprising. its not so much that the jews started it. its that there were some people who could see that the appeasement the other countries were using wasnt gonna work. we look back on this and wonder why the other countries leadership were so stupid. europe turned into a bunch of bitches after ww1 and i would like it if that were not true.

conclusion- the jews were actually trying to prevent another large war. people are blinded by this because appeasement was considered ok. appeasement as the norm. there was a group of people against it and it stuck out like a sore thumb. it turned out they were right. the appeasement made hitlers goals seem easy to grab and he was dangerously close to getting exactly what he wanted.

lets not get into other continental situations. its israel or palestine.

----------


## Flagg

Funny how this thread is going exactly the same way as the situation over there at the moment.

What fvcking difference how many so called facts or sources you lot quote, most of it is probably based on someones elses biased opinion, which in turn backs your own biased opinions, which virtually everyone has been guilty of in this thread. 

The sooner Jerusalum ceases to exist, the sooner peace in the Middle East will finally come.

----------


## crazy_rocks

> The sooner Jerusalum ceases to exist, the sooner peace in the Middle East will finally come.


sounds to me like you solved to riddle of peace

http://forums.steroid.com/attachment...1&d=1255497036

----------


## eliteforce

I wasn't talking about the boycott, I was talking about the part of the article that talks about the The Transfer Agreement, which forced Jews that wished to leave Germany go only to Palestine; the Zionists were willing to work with the Nazi regime as long as it facilitated their goals, instead of just helping as many Jews as they could get out of this increasingly perilous situation in Germany from 1933-1939 to the US, South Africa, or wherever, they decided to use the Nazi policies to fit their own goals.

So if you were a jewish family of 8, stuck in Nazi Germany, because of the Transfer Agreement between Zionist's and Nazi's, you were forced to not only come up with the money for your family to travel all the way to Palestine, you also had to come up with 8000£ which was the immigrant fee for British Palestine, had the zionists not made this agreement with the nazis, you could have taken your family to exit-visa anywhere and eventually make your way to NY or whereever-a much cheaper and easier path but the zionists made that impossible and many of the jews wound up suffering for another 7 years and then dead.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/an...azisupport.cfm

_On December 7, 1938, Ben Gurion, the first head of the Zionist ‘state of Israel’ declared “If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel.”_ 




> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_Boycott_of_1933
> 
> Are you stupid or something elite or just thick, they were fighting for their rights which had been violated with a peacful boycott. A boycott that didn't take hold in America until the Germans boycotted them.

----------


## korsow

their both wrong..  :Stick Out Tongue: 

anytime someone says something that is related to god, and someone gets shot for it,, their wrong., Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc etc.. all wrong.. wrong wrong wrong wrong.. This whole situation can be blamed on religion.. period.. no religion no problem..

religion then money

the root of all evil

Just my opinion

-k

----------


## crazy_rocks

> their both wrong.. 
> 
> anytime someone says something that is related to god, and someone gets shot for it,, their wrong., Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc etc.. all wrong.. wrong wrong wrong wrong.. This whole situation can be blamed on religion.. period.. no religion no problem..
> 
> religion then money
> 
> the root of all evil
> 
> Just my opinion
> ...


religion and money the root of all evil? in that case what would be the comparable factor with the two? greed

greed would be the root of all evil.

----------


## Flagg

> their both wrong.. 
> 
> anytime someone says something that is related to god, and someone gets shot for it,, their wrong., Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc etc.. all wrong.. wrong wrong wrong wrong.. This whole situation can be blamed on religion.. period.. no religion no problem..
> 
> religion then money
> 
> the root of all evil
> 
> Just my opinion
> ...



Yep, so much bloodshed over scripture. What a waste. I do think one day the Middle East will literally become a huge desert because it'll have been scorched off the earth by nuclear fire. Peace finally in the Middle East?

----------


## BJJ

> their both wrong.. 
> 
> anytime someone says something that is related to god, and someone gets shot for it,, their wrong., Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc etc.. all wrong.. wrong wrong wrong wrong.. This whole situation can be blamed on religion.. period.. no religion no problem..
> 
> religion then money
> 
> the root of all evil
> 
> Just my opinion
> ...



not bad at all... i would say.

----------


## *El Diablo*

> their both wrong.. 
> 
> anytime someone says something that is related to god, and someone gets shot for it,, their wrong., Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc etc.. all wrong.. wrong wrong wrong wrong.. This whole situation can be blamed on religion.. period.. no religion no problem..
> 
> religion then money
> 
> the root of all evil
> 
> Just my opinion
> ...


Yeah i also like the way this sounds. Religion is the biggest F*ckup ever. 
Money... ? I like money..  :Smilie:

----------


## Persistence2012

> If someone doesn't see the 1940s situation in Israel as being analagous to Native American Indians coming to your town and evicting you and all of your neighbors because they lived there at one time centuries ago, then there is no point in arguing with that person. 
> 
> Palestinians occupied the land most recently, and therefore they should be able to live there as citizens. Not the second class citizens that they are under the apartheid Israeli regime, where food, water, and medical care are used as weapons against 2 million innocent people. Causing 2 million people to suffer for the crimes of MAYBE a few THOUSAND terrorists will never be justified in my eyes, all politics aside. 
> 
> What we have now is a big f**ing mess, and in my PERSONAL opinion the only solution would be a 2 state solution, and I use the word solution very hesitantly.


This.

I give you my measly reps, may the force and reps guide you. lulz

But on more serious note, i believe the issue at hand that is consistently being overlooked is the fact that israel's population is no way in a consensus that stipulates they want "a jewish country".

Rather a significant amount of jews are opposed to the creationism of a single jewish country (specifically orthodox and many other well known sects), and many of the adherents are aware that whatever destruction and potential threats that they currently and may face in the future is to the bringing of their own demise. 

Alot of jews in the world are ashamed to be called "israeli", such as the huge movement on the net, google jews against zionism, which is against the discrimintion of other entities for the satisifcation of zionist's desires'. 

In fact, i'd extend the notion and postulate that the jews in US who were surveyed, testified that the creation of a jewish israel and their horrible genocidal crimes in the country has led to an increase of further racist attacks against them, leaving them to be further aliented in modern society. 

So as a result, many of the jews, specifically orthodox, and some ashkanzi would like to reach a settlement agreement with the other side, and for once live in peace righteously. 

On the otherhand, the palestinians are in no way united whatsoever. The goldstone report which was to conduct a report on israel's war crimes was stopped personally by the provincial leader of west bank province, who is in fact a palestinan and clearly has some large financial incentives with israeli neo cons.

The optimal resolution would be that the two entities be incorporated into a single unified region, probably called israesltine. It is more than obvious that there would be severe discourse among the population, but that is what the transition stage meant for. Eventually after a generation or two, I'm sure after cross-marriages and the development of a morphed dialect of hebrew and arabic languages, the next generations would be living side by side in a harmonial and equilibrium state.

----------


## Times Roman

I'm not on any side. But the jews were artificially transplanted there shortly after ww2 by the british, which pissed the arabs off to a high degree. So I will say I do understand their being pissed off.

----------


## wmaousley

> I'm not on any side. But the jews were artificially transplanted there shortly after ww2 by the british, which pissed the arabs off to a high degree. So I will say I do understand their being pissed off.


We should wipe them both off the face of the earth so we can free up money we give to them annually, give the UN something else to mediate, build a nice beach resort, free up the news channels from having to cover their issues, and the list goes on and on.

Fvck both Palesteine and Israel

----------


## wmaousley

> Yeah i also like the way this sounds. Religion is the biggest F*ckup ever. 
> Money... ? I like money..


As Trick Daddy said, Christians, Jews and Muslims are all gods children

----------


## Flagg

Nice bump. 

The problem is, most Muslim nations have as much contempt for Palestinians as Israeli's do. Another problem with the world today, is that shit that happens to the Palestinians is just allowed to happen. Look at Syria. Im getting sick of all these UN meetings and Politicians "condemning" the actions of Assad, but not doing one thing to stop it.

----------


## Persistence2012

> I'm not on any side. But the jews were artificially transplanted there shortly after ww2 by the british, which pissed the arabs off to a high degree. So I will say I do understand their being pissed off.


Im sure i speak on behalf of alot of people, and say your posts are much appreciated. I personally am in favour of always approaching every topic or issue with an unbiased approach, yet alot of individuals whom profess they share the same tendencies, tend to negate that concept altogether, and enter in discussions with a biased perception.

----------


## Persistence2012

> We should wipe them both off the face of the earth so we can free up money we give to them annually, give the UN something else to mediate, build a nice beach resort, free up the news channels from having to cover their issues, and the list goes on and on.
> 
> Fvck both Palesteine and Israel


Lol, though I can see the advantages of following through with your approach, there is one problem that remains; this pales-israel issue is merely an epitome of all the problems that exist in modern society.

Or in other words, there are numerous cases like this all around the world, its just that this israel-palest tends to garner the most media attention. So in all reality, it doesn't become feasible to follow suit with that solution as were looking for a general solution that can be used to dismantle hatred between two groups all around the world.

----------


## Persistence2012

> Nice bump. 
> 
> The problem is, most Muslim nations have as much contempt for Palestinians as Israeli's do. Another problem with the world today, is that shit that happens to the Palestinians is just allowed to happen. Look at Syria. Im getting sick of all these UN meetings and Politicians "condemning" the actions of Assad, but not doing one thing to stop it.


I agree, a prime example needs to be set to dissuade others from following en-suit with a similar dictatorship in the future.

----------


## Times Roman

i read a bumper sticker the other day that read....

ORGANIZED RELIGION...
...the biggest scam ever!

I am having a hard time disputing that idea, personally.

----------


## Times Roman

> *We should wipe them both off the face of the earth* so we can free up money we give to them annually, give the UN something else to mediate, build a nice beach resort, free up the news channels from having to cover their issues, and the list goes on and on.
> 
> Fvck both Palesteine and Israel


disagree.

but it would have been nice if instead of putting the Jews where they were placed, maybe give them an island off to the side and by themselves. This would have prevented much of the worlds troubles today.

----------


## Persistence2012

> i read a bumper sticker the other day that read....
> 
> ORGANIZED RELIGION...
> ...the biggest scam ever!
> 
> I am having a hard time disputing that idea, personally.


lol made me lol inrl.

----------


## Persistence2012

> disagree.
> 
> but it would have been nice if instead of putting the Jews where they were placed, maybe give them an island off to the side and by themselves. This would have prevented much of the worlds troubles today.


I could see that as a feasible secondary option, but i still believe the best thing is to mix the two together, let them work it out for a generation, and have their second - third generations live in harmony with each other. It would be similar to the treatment given to the natives here in North America and Austraila.

----------


## Times Roman

> I could see that as a feasible secondary option, but i still believe the best thing is to mix the two together, let them work it out for a generation, and have their second - third generations live in harmony with each other. It would be similar to the treatment given to the natives here in North America and Austraila.


How long do you think the palestinians would survive if we turned a blind eye and let the two factions "work it out?"

----------


## Persistence2012

> How long do you think the palestinians would survive if we turned a blind eye and let the two factions "work it out?"


That's being done for the past several years actually lol. 

There was a war, and it was barely picked up by main stream media in 2009/2010.

There are homes and what not consistently destroyed and settlements expanded all on a daily basis, so im pretty sure they've gotten used to not relying on us. =)

----------


## Times Roman

> That's being done for the past several years actually lol. 
> 
> There was a war, and it was barely picked up by main stream media in 2009/2010.
> 
> There are homes and what not consistently destroyed and settlements expanded all on a daily basis, so im pretty sure they've gotten used to not relying on us. =)


true. but if we truly turned a blind eye, and if the jews felt there would be NO reprecussions, NONE, THEN how long do you think it would take before the Jews completely wipe out the palastinians?

----------


## wmaousley

> disagree.
> 
> but it would have been nice if instead of putting the Jews where they were placed, maybe give them an island off to the side and by themselves. This would have prevented much of the worlds troubles today.


And the Palestenians blame me "the Americans" for the Israelis being were they are, however we didnt put them there, tha damn Brits did.

----------


## Matt

I would like to see Iran obtain their nuclear weapon soon, its far time those jews where finished.....

----------


## Times Roman

> I would like to see Iran obtain their nuclear weapon soon, its far time those jews where finished.....


my personal opinion is that Iran should NOT be allowed a nuclear weapon. Iran is more or less equivalent to a dictatorship, and can do pretty much whatever it pleases (regardless what the ggeneral population wants). Allowing them a weapon would also give them the ability of holding the UN and the west hostage to whatever demands they make. Ultimately, it complicates things in an already tense situation.

----------


## Matt

> my personal opinion is that Iran should NOT be allowed a nuclear weapon. Iran is more or less equivalent to a dictatorship, *and can do pretty much whatever it pleases* (regardless what the ggeneral population wants). Allowing them a weapon would also give them the ability of *holding the UN and the west hostage to whatever demands they make.* Ultimately, it complicates things in an already tense situation.


You've just described the Israelis to the letter...

----------


## wmaousley

> You've just described the Israelis to the letter...


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you MATT

----------


## rampaige77

> We should wipe them both off the face of the earth so we can free up money we give to them annually, give the UN something else to mediate, build a nice beach resort, free up the news channels from having to cover their issues, and the list goes on and on.
> 
> Fvck both Palesteine and Israel


i concure with you we give the jews so much money its insane & they disregard the rights & freedom of other countrys to further there own adjenda example the illegal entry into Argentina to kidnap Adolf Eichman after they were told no by that government then promptly executed him for war crimes. Not condoning nazis but must respect the laws of other nations while in there juristiction

----------


## Times Roman

In response to some....

I strongly believe that it wouuld be better for all, including the jews (only in the long term) if we STOP subsidizing most foreign nations, including Isreal.

----------


## Simon1972

> In response to some....
> 
> I strongly believe that it wouuld be better for all, including the jews (only in the long term) if we STOP subsidizing most foreign nations, including Isreal.


agreed, speaking of Jews why do alot of them have last names that revolve around money?

examples: Goldman,Golberg, Silverman, Diamond, Silverstein,Cassirer (Yiddish for Cash),Bogatch (Polish- meaning "wealthy"),Finkelstein (dealing in diamonds),Goldblum,Lehman/n (money lender)Steuer- (tax collector),Sticker- (gold worker)

----------


## CLAVHAMMER

I know a self hating Jew that has a German name

----------


## Far from massive

> true. but if we truly turned a blind eye, and if the jews felt there would be NO reprecussions, NONE, THEN how long do you think it would take before the Jews completely wipe out the palastinians?


I just happened to see this old thread and read most of it and found it very interesting. 

However as far as Israel wiping out the Palastinians...I don't think it would stop at that, I feel many arab neighbors would get involved...Hence the real reason for the republicans apparently being led like a dog by the wealthy Jews to maintain a peaceful middle east....If Israel used nukes and wiped out most of the middle east that would put Jews in charge of oil prices,,,,This is a Texans greatest nightmare!!! Bush and his buddies may not be intellectuals but they are not complete morons either LOL


PS This comment by Crazy Rocks should add him to the list of great Jewish comics,

kratos, may you experience great maintenance of successful anaboliccycles .
may every anti zionist receive side effects .

----------


## odi et amo

they are both being irrational and stupid. I don't like either of them. both sides really do not want this to end. sometimes you gotta just give, you know. it's how civilisations are built.

----------


## tankerlife4ever

> they are both being irrational and stupid. I don't like either of them. both sides really do not want this to end. sometimes you gotta just give, you know. it's how civilisations are built.


So many things to comment on but I would vote both.

The reason is not soley money as many might say...Israel now has a self-sufficient economy and as of 2007 stopped receiving 'Aid'. However since then Israel receives roughly 3 billion dollars a year of which 75% they spend on American Defence Equipment (jets, helo, weapons, gear, logistic support etc). So of the 3 billion dollars 75% is spent back on USA built stuff. 

Secondly, the reason for current USA support of Israel is both the result of the past history, the large jewish population that is American, and right wing evangelical Christianity's ideological love of Israel which is by far the most logically unjustified and dangerous. 

Third, subsidies. Subsidies are not evil. Without subsidies the North American Colonies would not have survived. Subsidies build partnerships and the last thing most western nations want is for the smaller developing and troubled nations to start getting their subsidies from either Russia or China...It's a political game that has to be played and in the case of Israel it pays off huge for the the defence industry of North America. 

Fourth and finally, the biggest problem with reconciliation between the parties is the extreme on both sides. The day Israel became a nation all their Arab neighbours attacked them with the intent of whiping them off the map. Israel's ultra Orthodox continue to grow as a percentage of the population and are degenerating back to pre feminism, pre democracy, pre secularist gains of western society. 

But what's done is done as far as land goes and if you want Israel to disband and open it's borders to Arab immigrants who would instantly democratically vote away their human rights to Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood, then most of us are gonna have to move because our forefathers stole most of this land from the Indians, and used several million african slaves to develop it. 
Fortunately I can just go to the gym in peace...

ps. if you want to know why so many ashkenazi jews (european jews) are in the financial sector or have names like goldberg just look into the persecution of Jews by the Catholic Church

----------

