# MEMBERS EXPERIENCES > OVER 40 FORUM >  Who started a cycle with over 20% BF ???

## BuildaBeast

After reading Ajax's post up top I was wondering how many people have taken the approach to increase LBM first then lose some body fat? Everyone on the majority board says that one should be 15% or under. I understand that the more muscle you have the more fat you burn. So who and what have you taken to increase LBM and also had some fat loss? As I get older it seems the fat doesn't drop like it use too.

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## FeldMarshellPotter

I never cycled at all...sorry man

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## IBdmfkr

You need to focus on your diet, If you caloric intake is less than what you burn each day, then only one thing will happen. You will LOSE weight. There is your problem.

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## MuckDog

> You need to focus on your diet, If you caloric intake is less than what you burn each day, then only one thing will happen. You will LOSE weight. There is your problem.



this cant be said any better

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## spywizard

If you can't or won't control your eating habits, you will not be successful on steroids ..

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## MuckDog

but to answer your question - i have cycled with a BF over 20%....granted it was anavar but i worked very hard, ate properly and lost 30 lbs in 2 months. the main thing of importance to me beside the weight loss was my strength gains. my BF right now is still not under 15% and im going to do a test e cycle in a few weeks.

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## MuckDog

oh - i better comment on the above statement i made before i get shredded - the anavar itself was not responsible for my weight loss - the eating properly was.

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## spywizard

> oh - i better comment on the above statement i made before i get shredded - the anavar itself was not responsible for my weight loss - the eating properly was.


 
we have a winner.. 

good job man.. and congrats on the weight loss.. good luck on the coming test cycle..

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## MuckDog

lol on the pic...and thanks spy as your posts were some of many that were beneficial in helping me.

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## TADOLFI

Buildabeast...
I'm assuming you're over 30 since this is posted here.
I'm 43 and I've had a hard time with getting my bodyfat down and I have to say - as you get older you develop some really crappy eating habits if you're not paying attention. Shoving a little of this or that in your mouth, stopping at fast food joints cause it's "only one burger" etc. etc.

My bad habit was always being the clean up person after my kids ate - couldn't let that stuff go to waste!

Anyway, the point is - You've got to examine everything you're putting in your mouth. And if you want to be more lean - it won't be in a pill or a needle.

Diet and Cardio are the keys - and for me, just cutting out sugar helped me get my bodyfat down and loose some of the gut.
Bike, run, jog, row, jump rope - anything that gets the heart pumpin - you'll feel and see the difference within two weeks if you're watching what goes in your mouth.

And it's hella hard when you're older and set in your ways.  : 1106: 

You can start a cycle - but don't expect the drugs to do much unless you are willing to put in some time & effort.

Good Luck!

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## BuildaBeast

Thanks for the replies guys but I will also agree that it's diet and cardio that makes the differernce. I'm NOT looking for an easy way out, I have my workout and diet in check now but I do notice that it takes alot longer to lose the BF thna when I was younger. I was making a statement how Ajax had higher BF% and cycled and built muscle and lost BF and he wasn't at the ideal BF% that everyone says you have to be at.

When I was younger way way younger I started at 256lbs and it took 2 years to learn how to control my eating habbits to get super lean at 169lbs then I built my way up from there. I got up to 200lbs all natty until my mid-late twenties and I through it all away. Last couple of years I have been trying to get back into the grove.

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## Cylon

I am 42 and have done a cycle of limited anavar and test. I seen a dramatic gain of strength and about 15 pounds of muscle that seem to replace the fat. I would agree that the more muscle you have the more fat you will burn should you keep your caloric intake at bay.

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## BuildaBeast

> I am 42 and have done a cycle of limited anavar and test. I seen a dramatic gain of strength and about 15 pounds of muscle that seem to replace the fat. I would agree that the more muscle you have the more fat you will burn should you keep your caloric intake at bay.



There is a person who could see what my post was about. That is an example of what I'm looking for. I do appreciate everyones feedback though. Thank You

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## Cylon

> There is a person who could see what my post was about. That is an example of what I'm looking for. I do appreciate everyones feedback though. Thank You


I believe that it is difficult for the younger guys to understand what us old guys have to go through. Many can tell you that you need to be in the best physical condition or you have to have your mind in the game. I believe that AS has allowed me to get my mind in the game. While I will concede that my body fat level is too high, I also understand that seeing gains in my strength has led me to work harder. I beleive that everyones answer of diet diet diet is just not cutting it. You need physical activity and being the level of stress and work most of us are subjected too... AS helps!

Bob

PS: In order to better understand my diet I purchased a program from Fitday.com!

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## IBdmfkr

Yes I always lean towards implying that diet is the most important things, because I believe that. I always figured since we are on a workout board that the whole training things was just understood. My appologies, Yes you would need to train too, to grow muscle or stay in shape.

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## worcesterguy

> After reading Ajax's post up top I was wondering how many people have taken the approach to increase LBM first then lose some body fat? Everyone on the majority board says that one should be 15% or under. I understand that the more muscle you have the more fat you burn. So who and what have you taken to increase LBM and also had some fat loss? As I get older it seems the fat doesn't drop like it use too.


I did a cycle about 6 months ago, 6 weeks of M4ohn. I'm 47 and BF% is over 20. 

Of course we all know that training and diet is key, but what I found was that it was easier to maintain a strict diet and training with some help. I felt great when I was on. Dropped some pounds, lost some bodyfat, gained some strength and some vascularity. What I also liked about it was I got into the groove of doing regular cardio and that with diet, weights, training, and rest makes ya feel good. Problems with higher % bodyfat and age. with higher bf, have to watch estrogen. And with age, I noticed my pct was not aggressive enough or long enough. Takes more than a couple of weeks for things to get back to normal, even with a (what many consider) milder substance like MOHN. 

I am thinking of doing another cycle. Mid November-end of December. So while many people put on weight, I plan on dropping. Of course they'll be no drinking and while being on, you just tend to pay attention to diet better. So maybe I'll have some swedish meatballs but I'll pass on all the sweets at those holiday parties. 

I'll be upping the dose and duration or nolva, rebound, and dhea this time around for PCT. Will be throwing in more antioxidants and other cortisol controlling agents to help get back to normal quicker.

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## Remington

BUMP!
Just cause this is EXACTLY what I am going thru.
Right now Im looking into getting an accurate BF test.
Gonna make some more calls tomorrow.
Anybody wanna add sum more to this thread?

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## kaorialfred

The only thing missing here is the fact that you are over 30 there is a a whole lot of hormone issues happening at this age to a lot of men. I would say that the first thing to do is to get your blood work done and get with a dietican, endocrinologist, urologist and make sure all your systems are functioning okay. I know many assume that diet and training is the way to go FIRST. Yet I know plenty that they had the diet and the training down. Yet they didn't get any thing because of thyroid disorders, no test production at all or metabolic disorders. Men always assume that if their walking and talking its cool there okay. Just go hit the gym and it will happen. If it dosen't do AS and it will happen. Never ever bothering to get a freakin physical and full work up to see if their is something wrong internally.
But yes when I train clients and I really don't train men because most want to do AS, they will get the diet down and workouts right just so they can do the AS. Greeedy and Neeedy I guess. Guys we are a very proud group, and we don't want to hear eat and train,when we know there is short cut or edge. Yet we never seek to find out if our foundation is stable before we start building that monster of a house.

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## Remington

Well put. 
I started out at 291 of all fat. Im now 275 with some decent muscle. Im 36 and have been lifting for many years. Just fell out of shape as of late. I figure when I get down to 260--im gonna start a Test Cyp only cycle.
Any other suggestions on this??
Great thread by the way!

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## spywizard

> Well put. 
> I started out at 291 of all fat. Im now 275 with some decent muscle. Im 36 and have been lifting for many years. Just fell out of shape as of late. I figure when I get down to 260--im gonna start a Test Cyp only cycle.
> Any other suggestions on this??
> Great thread by the way!


that's a great approach, congrats on the weight loss, and the upcoming cycle..

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## ipso facto

> I believe that it is difficult for the younger guys to understand what us old guys have to go through. Many can tell you that you need to be in the best physical condition or you have to have your mind in the game. I believe that AS has allowed me to get my mind in the game. While I will concede that my body fat level is too high, I also understand that seeing gains in my strength has led me to work harder. I beleive that everyones answer of diet diet diet is just not cutting it. You need physical activity and being the level of stress and work most of us are subjected too... AS helps!


+1

A good looking body is a plus, but as you age, what's really important is maintaining that mental acuity that you had when you were younger -- this is critical. AS helps, but it's just a tool. As you age you've got to get more structured, obsessive, and careful about your health.

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## oldman

I started at about 26-28% and now I am at less than 12%. I would not say that the cycle (Sust/Deca ) did a dam thing for me. I think I just got my arse in gear and did what needed to get done. 

~Old

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## Hlywudguy

I am 50 y/o... I started out at 6', 200 lbs... ok body... have been in the gym working pretty hard for two years... but body fat was still high... 23% or so... I just started my first cycle of Enantato 350 (500mg/wk) and 50mg of Anavar every day. I am at the end of my 2nd week... I have already seen good strength gain... but gained about 10 lbs-- which I didn't particularly want... but BF is already down to 18%... eating habits much improved... It may be psychological... but I feel better, more motvated... muscles feel harder... if not bigger. I want to add something to help burn fat... 

I have two 35 year old friends that are trying their 1st cycle with me... training together... they are on Enantato 350 and Deca ... They needed/wanted to "bulk"... I wanted to "cut"... Anyway... so far/so good. Still very nervous, but have learned PLENTY on here... May try another "newbie" cycle in July... depending on the results and pct of this cycle. 

Anything else I should know or be weary of?? Anything I should add to my cycle?? Nova or Clen ??

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## Remington

I am SOOOOOOOOO tempted to start my first cycle.
This is a good thread, lets keep it alive.

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## BOOST

Here I will throw my 2 cents out there. I am 5/10 and was 250 went on weight watchers and I am down to 239lb as of today. I really do not care what people think about weight watcher's, it is proven to be one of the best diets out there hands down. You can eat from all the food groups and your body needs that. Can you loose weight quicker on low carb and eating 6 times a day, you sure can however it is not a way of life to eat and you will not keep the weight off long term imo. 

Most diets bottom line is calorie intake and that is what weight watchers is geared toward. You do not have to buy there food, just scale your food and know how many points each thing you are eating is. The point system is calorie control like most diets. I tried low carb and felt like shit, had bad breath and got headaches. Your body needs fruits, nuts,carbs and meats. All of which you can eat on this diet. 

I have a cycle of Test Sus and Winny sitting waiting for me. I do however want to shed more weight before I start. I have a friend with the same build that ran a cycle of this and gained muscle mass and dropped major BF %. Even with that I want to loose more before I start my gear. I plan on staying on this diet while on gear to max out results, I am not looking to be huge just add a little strength and maybe a little size with less b/f. 

Anyone that claims AS do not help loose BF is bullshit, men over 30 loose Test that is a known fact and it is harder and harder to loose weight and gain strength. If you are mid 20's and BF is low, yes you are not going to burn BF. However over 30, your body looses many things and eating right and exercising and a little juice will do wonders. 

Oh and I am 35....

I am still sure though if you hit gear and ate right and hit the gym you would still loose B/F. Gear in men over 30 does speed things up. I saw it with my buddy and he is 41.

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## oldman

I do want to add that the little Sust/Deca I did on my cycle I don't think did anything to help me get back into shape. In fact I was only using Deca to help with some joint issues and of course Test to get my levels up from a 56 to something normal.

Honestly if I knew I never would have done the cycle at all.. I would have waited at least until I was where I am now. I started my cycle almost 8 weeks before I started my diet/training in proper form.. what I mean is I was lifting but not doing cardio or eating right when my cycle started and I went about 8 weeks I think before I really started getting serious and got my arse in gear so the AAS really did very little IMO.. Maybe a motivator but I think.. wait I Know now that it is all cardio and diet..


My 2 cents.

~Old

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## Remington

> However over 30, your body looses many things and eating right and exercising and a little juice will do wonders. 
> Oh and I am 35....
> I am still sure though if you hit gear and ate right and hit the gym you would still loose B/F. Gear in men over 30 does speed things up. I saw it with my buddy and he is 41.


You know---you and I are in the same boat. The more and more I read posts like that--the more I wanna start early.
Im 6'4-275----I wanted to wait till I got to 260. 
I wanna start now because I too think it would help with fat loss.
However most of what other threads here say, I should loose the weight first.
All I wanna do is Test Cyp. Seeing as this is my first cycle-id keep it light.
Week 1 thru 6: 400mg Cyp.
Week 6 thru 10: 500-600mg Cyp.
What do u all think?
Again---im 35y/o--bodyfat is somewhere in the 28-31% area.

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## BOOST

> You know---you and I are in the same boat. The more and more I read posts like that--the more I wanna start early.
> Im 6'4-275----I wanted to wait till I got to 260. 
> I wanna start now because I too think it would help with fat loss.
> However most of what other threads here say, I should loose the weight first.
> All I wanna do is Test Cyp. Seeing as this is my first cycle-id keep it light.
> Week 1 thru 6: 400mg Cyp.
> Week 6 thru 10: 500-600mg Cyp.
> What do u all think?
> Again---im 35y/o--bodyfat is somewhere in the 28-31% area.


I would hit it and stop wasting time and looking at your bag should I or should I wait. In men over 30 we are already at a huge dis-advantage, our test levels are low and our metabolisms are slow as shit. You need a decent work-out and you have to do Cardo 3-4 days per week to see decent results. This does not mean 15 Minutes, I do 30 minutes 4 days per week at 3.7 and a incline of 2.0 when done you are like a wet rag. 

To me I may be wrong, It seems a little heavy for your 1st cycle. I am going to run Test Sus 250 1 cc per week and into my 4th week add Winny pills 50mg 1 per day. I train with 2 friends one is 41 and the other 38 I have seen there bodies transform into a 20 year old, they both lost body fat and gained nice muscle mass. They both did not have side effects like hair loss or bitch tits, I think in men over 30 when done right at a low dosage you are just replacing what your body already has stopped producing. These two guys went from waste sizes of 40 to 32 and added 15lbs of solid muscle.

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## Remington

> I would hit it and stop wasting time and looking at your bag should I or should I wait. 
> 
> To me I may be wrong, It seems a little heavy for your 1st cycle.


OK---
First off, thanks a bunch for the input BOOST.
Many thanks.
Dont think for a second I'm gonna let too much time pass b4 I "hit it".
Its my current bodyfat thing Im thinking about. 29% is high, I know. 
My cardio thus far has SUCKED. 
Man---u hit the nail right on the head when you said 15 mins DOES not equal "cardio".
For the most part--thats all the effort I ever gave it.
Lazy I guess.
No more of that shit.
This week Im starting in RIGHT. Cardio and diet my ass off.

------------
Question--you said the outline for my first cycle is high.
I kinda thought it was low.

(((Week 1 thru 6: 400mg Cyp.
Week 6 thru 10: 500-600mg Cyp)))

...or were you not referring to me.
>>????<<<
...thanks again

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## Darren1968

i am working my socks off in the gym & i have a bodyfat of 22%.my diet is good as well.
I was looking at doing a cycle of Test Enth & anavar in the future, I too have heard you should be below 15% body fat before a cycle.
I am coming up to 38years young & will go to the Doc to see if he will check my blood out to make sure everything is fine.

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## Remington

15% seems almost unobtainable at times.

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## Remington

Yep..

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## bisntris

40 20% BF 6"5"" 260.....Started test cyp 250 2/wk 6th week
bf 19 % weight 281, bloated as hell but very motivated... 
I started before losing all bf for purely motivaTIONAL REASONS...I WOULD TRY A ROUTINE AND THEN FADE...GET BACK INTO ANOTHER AND FADE AGAIN...!
This time, however, my motivation is through the roof...strength is up muscle growing and i am eating so much i could puke...
the eating alone will make ther most difference imo for two BIG reasons:
1. bulk = muscle 
2. By the time my cycle is over i will be so ready to cut back on intake that it won't seem like a diet but instead it will feel like a nice break!!!
Amazing how we can BS our own minds but anyway I am happy that i put the cart before the horse! :7up:

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## Remington

> Amazing how we can BS our own minds


Again..Yep.
Your previous cycle sounds like my life story.
I GOTTA re-think my ideals.
Time for me to get more serious.

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## BOOST

> OK---
> First off, thanks a bunch for the input BOOST.
> Many thanks.
> Dont think for a second I'm gonna let too much time pass b4 I "hit it".
> Its my current bodyfat thing Im thinking about. 29% is high, I know. 
> My cardio thus far has SUCKED. 
> Man---u hit the nail right on the head when you said 15 mins DOES not equal "cardio".
> For the most part--thats all the effort I ever gave it.
> Lazy I guess.
> ...


Bump your cardo to 4 times a week 25-30 minutes, eat 5-6 smaller meals, nothing fried and no fast food. Eat clean and hit the gym 4-5 times a week. You will see results. I think 400mg is a little much for your first time, I may be wrong but I am going 250mg 1cc a week and Winny pills 50mg 1 per day.

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## BOOST

My friend is 41 and had 28% BF he is down to 16% and added 12 pounds of solid muscle, he has the V shape and really looks like he is 25 for what it is worth. If you are not going to be committed, do not waste your time. Eating right and working out needs to be like wiping your ass when you shit, you just do it.  :AaGreen22:

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## Remington

Thats pretty funny

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## Remington

Bumper car.

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## Darren1968

i might go for the Clen /T3 cycle to shed some body fat.....i have the gear in now.

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## RMBros

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the loss of Test in us over 30s (turned 38 today) allow the estrogen in our systems to start to deposit more belly and hip fat than we have ever had before?

I'm not sure that it will be a problem for everyone, just because some folks have more or less test and more or less estrogen, but for a lot of us it gets harder and harder to lose that kind of weight.

Think about all those old guys who you have to look at twice to be sure they're not women - they didn't get that way on purpose.

Anyway, at 38, I'm about to start my first cycle - test enth and EQ for 12 weeks, tons of PCT etc. I'm probably close to 20% bf, according to our scales, which use some cheap capacitance or inductance bf measurement tool. God, I don't feel that fat, but that's what they say.

As I progress, I'll check back in here to let everyone know how it's going.

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## Remington

happy birthday---and keep us informed

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## BOOST

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the loss of Test in us over 30s (turned 38 today) allow the estrogen in our systems to start to deposit more belly and hip fat than we have ever had before?
> 
> I'm not sure that it will be a problem for everyone, just because some folks have more or less test and more or less estrogen, but for a lot of us it gets harder and harder to lose that kind of weight.
> 
> Think about all those old guys who you have to look at twice to be sure they're not women - they didn't get that way on purpose.
> 
> Anyway, at 38, I'm about to start my first cycle - test enth and EQ for 12 weeks, tons of PCT etc. I'm probably close to 20% bf, according to our scales, which use some cheap capacitance or inductance bf measurement tool. God, I don't feel that fat, but that's what they say.
> 
> As I progress, I'll check back in here to let everyone know how it's going.



Keep us posted, I am starting my first Monday. 1cc per week of Test Sus and week 4 I am stacking Winny pills 1 per day 50mg. I cannot wait :AaGreen22:  

Over 30 everything in your body changes, the biggest problem I see is Test levels drop off and metabolism slows down. Loosing Test sucks, no energy, a decline in strength and Muscle mass :Bs:

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## Remington

Id like to know if anybody else would like to add something else to this thread as it pertains to me, and I think lots of others.

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## Remington

bump---anybody wanna add some more to this topic?
Thanks

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## 2bshredded

I will be starting my 12 week Test/Eq in a week or two, I have been using some Deca for bad joints and it has helped them termendously. I noticed though that I'm adding "bloat" not in the face but on the mid-section, I'm also taking 200 mg. of DHEA. I've been on the Deca now about 10 days, so it will be a Deca boost before my cycle begins here shortly. Seems as the Deca is working or it just a mind fucc, that's ok...I'm hitting it hard in my gym.

Oh yea the stats:
46 years, 6'3", 210 lbs, ~20% I'm guessing...it's only in my mid-section
1st cycle, I know I shouldn't be doing the Deca but it has saved my joints and got me back deadlifting and helping me push myself.

My goal is to stack on 25/30 lbs and loose the midsection, get my deadlift max to 600lbs. Any suggestions will be quite welcome.

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## dneversatisfied

I am 31 and started a real diet & excercise program just this past 6-7 months or so and i did a cycle of deca and test 1cc a week about a month after working out. I did 15 mins cardio warm up then a specific weight program hitting different stuff each day. shoulders, back-bi, chest-tri, legs then did more cardio after the weights. I took de-aromatese and some stacker 2 with ephedra also. so i was at the gym 4 days a week.. sometimes did cardio on the 5th day too. and when i decided to eat better was when fat started falling off of me! i cut out sugar, bread, caffein and ate only eggs bacon, chicken beef and cheese for 2 months. I lost 40 pounds of fat and 20 pounds on the scale in a month or so. Don't know if I can help anyone out but I did this hard core and have maintained the same weight and put on more muscle even after accepting breads, sugar etc back into my system. of course i don't eat like a pig like i used to after getting used to that diet i was on which helps but i do go up and down. it is rough being older. but i will never give up. i will look great the rest of my life no matter how much it hurts! no pain no gain!! you just gotta do it. ask for help if need be. get a workout and diet partner. being here is great support. i know cuz i just joined and am already off and running posting and reading while i'm at work.. (shh.. don't tell!!)

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## Logan13

> After reading Ajax's post up top I was wondering how many people have taken the approach to increase LBM first then lose some body fat? Everyone on the majority board says that one should be 15% or under. I understand that the more muscle you have the more fat you burn. So who and what have you taken to increase LBM and also had some fat loss? As I get older it seems the fat doesn't drop like it use too.


Diet needs to be in order first. Certainly people over 20% cycle, just look at Saluu............

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## RMBros

5 weeks in at this point - libido boost kicked in at 3 weeks, very nice.

Started losing bodyfat about that time too, but nothing huge.

My last couple of workouts have been fantastic and I'm really looking forward to the next week to see if they're going to continue.

My diet has been pretty clean (a few bad days), but the EQ has really upped the amount I'm eating. Not that I'm hungry more often, just that I eat more when I do eat.

I've had some trouble with cramping and calf/shin pumps so bad that I couldn't continue running after 15 min, but those are mostly fixed now.

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## Remington

bump.
Cause its STILL agreat thread.

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## sheltonn

I just did a small cycle. My BF was 26% when I started. My diet was decent and my cardio was pretty good. Being 36 made it really hard to work out hard enough to get the results I wanted. 

This led me to do a little cycle of test/tren (1cc/.5 cc every week) for 3 weeks, then I added 1cc oral anadrol ed for three weeks. I dropped cardio during the last three weeks to give more time to lift. My weight went from 197 to 213. My body fat dropped 4 points and I could work out like crazy. BTW, the weight gain and BF drop happened in the last 3 weeks when I added anadrol and cut out all cardio. I wasn't trying to lose fat because I had been advised to bulk up, then cut.

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## zaggahamma

can't beat that with a stick 26 % to 22% BF.....sounds like your happy with that....keep up the good work

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## Logan13

> I just did a small cycle. My BF was 26% when I started. My diet was decent and my cardio was pretty good. Being 36 made it really hard to work out hard enough to get the results I wanted. 
> 
> This led me to do a little cycle of test/tren (1cc/.5 cc every week) for 3 weeks, then I added 1cc oral anadrol ed for three weeks. I dropped cardio during the last three weeks to give more time to lift. My weight went from 197 to 213. My body fat dropped 4 points and I could work out like crazy. BTW, the weight gain and BF drop happened in the last 3 weeks when I added anadrol and cut out all cardio. I wasn't trying to lose fat because I had been advised to bulk up, then cut.


At 26% BF someone told you to bulk up? You should be doing as much if not more cardio when you are bulking(clean bulk) as you do when cutting. You are taking in alot of calories much of which will add fat to your body unless you have cardio to burn the excess off. Glad to hear that the tren burnt some bodyfat........

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## sheltonn

> At 26% BF someone told you to bulk up? You should be doing as much if not more cardio when you are bulking(clean bulk) as you do when cutting. You are taking in alot of calories much of which will add fat to your body unless you have cardio to burn the excess off. Glad to hear that the tren burnt some bodyfat........


I agree completely. I already had decent size, but just wanted to lose the fat covering. His recommendation was to bulk up, but I pretty much stayed to protein shakes and kept an eye on my BF.

A friend of mine was doing a similar cycle (w/o the andro). He was following the advice of another friend and consuming tons of protien/carb shakes. He actually gained BF. Poor guy.

 :1laugh:

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## bringndaheat

great thread! I am 34 6'2 @245 21%bf 
Tomorrow will be day 7 of:
200mg's deca week 1-10
200mg's test e weel 1-10
50mg's whinny eod week 2-10
2iu's growth hormone 5/3
90mcg's Armour T-4 1 a day for seven weeks
HCG 250Iu's day before test shot and day of.
I started a journal on this in another forum on here. 
Reading what you guy's have written is vey insperational! Makes me feel like I made the right choice on starting a cycle over 20% I look forward to hearing about all you guy's progress!

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## Brute

Hey, 1st post on here - been reading for a while, lots of information on a subject I know little about (lifetime natural bodybuilder) so I still have lots of reading to do on here but this is a good thread subject (which I fit into). Am looking to learn more about cutting to get where I want to be. Any tips to help point me in the right direction on this forum would be appreciated.  :Wink/Grin:

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## zaggahamma

Seems like several guys in this thread have lost fat and in some cases total weight and have kept or have had increases in strength....good to know

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## nextphase

I an 37 years old. I was 307 pounds just 6 months ago. I have been dieting and doing cardio. Last week I weighed 272 when I started a cycle of winny. I have already lost another 10 pounds and feeling stronger. 

Some people on this board told me I shouldn't cycle until I lost more fat. So I obviosly did not listen. But here is my take on it, for me it is as much phycological as it is AAS. You see knowing that I am on gear, I have improved my diet, increased my cardio and intensified my workouts. Then so long as the gear is real, I should see some nice results in the next six weeks.

The only thing I would have changed would have been the type of Gear I decided to go with for my first time. After this six week cycle, I will do a little more research, and I hope to be in great shape by november.

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## zaggahamma

Congratulations on the fat loss and your positive attitude. Good luck with the rest of your cycle and continued training.

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## spywizard

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the loss of Test in us over 30s (turned 38 today) allow the estrogen in our systems to start to deposit more belly and hip fat than we have ever had before?
> 
> I'm not sure that it will be a problem for everyone, just because some folks have more or less test and more or less estrogen, but for a lot of us it gets harder and harder to lose that kind of weight.
> 
> Think about all those old guys who you have to look at twice to be sure they're not women - they didn't get that way on purpose.
> 
> Anyway, at 38, I'm about to start my first cycle - test enth and EQ for 12 weeks, tons of PCT etc. I'm probably close to 20% bf, according to our scales, which use some cheap capacitance or inductance bf measurement tool. God, I don't feel that fat, but that's what they say.
> 
> As I progress, I'll check back in here to let everyone know how it's going.


cortisol plays a big part in the collection of fat in the middle as well..

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## zaggahamma

> cortisol plays a big part in the collection of fat in the middle as well..


that reminds me(i forgot to ask my sorry a$$ endo) yesterday....she had said b4 that i was in range for cortisol....i was going to ask if it makes a difference if your in range but high normal....i believe i have another thread to this nature but since you mentioned it here...could you elaborate...maybe even to the note -can cortisol levels be changed for the better; easily, naturally, drugs...has it been observed to be low in those with low abdominal fat?

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## RaetherEnt

Hey everyone! Very first post to the board, as I just found it today and signed right up. I have been reading a lot of posts in a lot of threads to get caught up on all the knowlege out there...

Little history on me. I was an amateur bodybuilder in South Florida back in the early 90's. Started training after the Army and worked my way up from 135 lbs to 210 at 10% bodyfat in less than two years. Left for college, started drinking, smoking, yadda, yadda, yadda...12 years later, 228lbs at 25% bodyfat.

So, six weeks ago I decided absolutely no more. Put down the cigarettes, dropped the bottles and started working out again. I'm eating right,( six times a day, 30g protein minimum every 3 hours, lowfat, moderate complex carbs, NO simples sugars) I've eased my body back into my old workouts to the point where I am lifting pretty heavy again four days a week, hitting each bodypart twice a week. 6 days a week cardio...

I've gone from tight fitting 38 waist jeans to loose fitting 36, almost back down to 34's...My shirts are finally tight in the arms again, rather than the stomach...LOL!

Anyways, I'm ready to step it up a little more. Think I'm going to order this cycle...

50 tablets of Cytomel (50 mcg/tablet) 
210 tablets of Clenbuterol (20 mcg/tablet ) 
1 x Decabol (Deca durabolin 10ml)

And use it like this...

http://www.pharmanabolics.com/cycles...olin_cycle.htm

Anyone tried this cycle before? Even if not, does this look like a good cycle for what it is designed for, which would be fat loss with some lean muscle?

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## ebjack

I'm sitting at 23%bf and i'll be dropping to under 20% before I consider a cycle. 
There are a ton of things to learn before going on AAS. I'm 43 yo and usually impatient with these things.

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## BIGAL73

I thought I was the only one with this question.Thank God I'm not..My stats, I'm 32, 6'5",18.5" bi's.38" waist super thick shoulders and chest, And after a DR visit today I found out I'm 302#,(thought I was 290), And I'm about 25%BF.. I'll be taking the Oasis experiance hopefully next week,(getting bloodwork done in the AM)..After talking with a consultant he was saying I would probably be doing a Winney & Test stack to start,, Most all my BF is in the mid section. I've been lifting hard since Oct but really started busting ass in the last 1.5 months.My workout partner and myself are useing the Max-OT program and seeing LOTS of gains from it.What I'm hoping to gain from the Test/Winney is a bit more size and the fit look..I'm not exactly going for the bare minimum BF but would like to be around 12-15%..The only thing I'm scared to see in the end is loose abdominal skin. In High school I was all natural at 250 and 10% BF..But now over 30 I know that I probably can't do it on my own,I've been trying it for 8 months now with a hard loss of BF but great gains in muscle...Good luck to all of you,I'm going to be sure to follow along and will be starting my online journal hopefully next week..

Us fat men will prevail  :Bbiwin:   :LOL:   :LOL:

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## juicedOUTbrain

whats the point of being on juice if you cant take your shirt off? i personally wouldnt go ON unless i was 12% or less....otherwise it will only make you look bigger and fatter...

although if i was your age id be more on your page...i understand your hormone levels are lower and it may be harder for u to get that low naturally? my advice take is as low as you possibly can b4 you cave in...

I ve also read studies that show a correlation between body fat levels and quality mass gains...lower bf levels lead to better gains...i relate this to the amount of water your fat cells can hold that would otherwise be in the muscles? thats my logic anyway

i am not over 30, but i do have to work hard to get abs, and it upsetting to see people using steroids to get cut. I feel if drugs are to be used, there are much better ones for cutting (clen / t3)...Juice is for gaining muscle mass that COULD NOT be obtained naturally...thats my opinion anyway...

but good luck my friend...keep us updated and i hope you reach your goals!

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## zaggahamma

> whats the point of being on juice if you cant take your shirt off? i personally wouldnt go ON unless i was 12% or less....otherwise it will only make you look bigger and fatter...
> 
> although if i was your age id be more on your page...i understand your hormone levels are lower and it may be harder for u to get that low naturally? my advice take is as low as you possibly can b4 you cave in...
> 
> I ve also read studies that show a correlation between body fat levels and quality mass gains...lower bf levels lead to better gains...i relate this to the amount of water your fat cells can hold that would otherwise be in the muscles? thats my logic anyway
> 
> i am not over 30, but i do have to work hard to get abs, and it upsetting to see people using steroids to get cut. I feel if drugs are to be used, there are much better ones for cutting (clen / t3)...Juice is for gaining muscle mass that COULD NOT be obtained naturally...thats my opinion anyway...
> 
> but good luck my friend...keep us updated and i hope you reach your goals!


Did you use the clen/t3 also when you worked hard for your abs?

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## animator

Let us know how you do. I am curious !

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## guest589745

> whats the point of being on juice if you cant take your shirt off? i personally wouldnt go ON unless i was 12% or less.......


Not everyone wants to just look good. Although I cant say i would include myself in that group




> otherwise it will only make you look bigger and fatter...


 :What?:   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Vegas1973

it's good to know there are others who've actually done a cycle with higher than optimum bodyfat.

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## guest589745

> it's good to know there are others who've actually done a cycle with higher than optimum bodyfat.


Well, not necessarily good but, mildly reassuring.

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## IBdmfkr

I don't see any excuse for holding so much BF.. Clean up the diet and quit stuffing crap down your throats, Is health even a concern? 25%BF is ridiculous for a middle-aged man.

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## guest589745

> I don't see any excuse for holding so much BF.. Clean up the diet and quit stuffing crap down your throats, Is health even a concern? 25%BF is ridiculous for a middle-aged man.



Easy for you to say mr -37% BF!

"Oh its sooo easy, what, you guys werent born with raviolis on yer stomach?!"


I hear ya though, I cant believe I went from like 13%-18%, just snuk up on me I guess. I think mine came in an attempt to gain muscle and due to the fact that I thought I knew more about diet than I actually did.

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## IBdmfkr

> Easy for you to say mr -37% BF!
> 
> "Oh its sooo easy, what, you guys werent born with raviolis on yer stomach?!"


 :Wink/Grin: 

No I just guarantee if ppl were to consistantly stick with a strict diet tuned to their body 10-15% is easily maintainable by any healthy adult.

Remember you guys didn't get chunky overnight so don't expect to get "ravioli's" overnight either lol..

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## RMBros

So - results:

15-20lb weight gain, but my cardio was off for a number of reasons.

30+ lb gain on max bench - from 245 (max prob wasn't that much at the time I started, but it's what I'm using for a baseline) to 275.

30+ lb gain on DL max

40+ gain on Squat, but I also changed/tweaked my form a bit, so that may be part of the deal.

Looked leaner, but my scales with electronic BF testers said I was the same - I find that hard to believe, but I'm not sure how the thing handles water weight, etc.

Shoulder strength went off the charts.

Knee pain totally disappeared, as well as most shoulder pain.

AFTER THE CYCLE:

I'm almost done with PCT now, and I've kept most of the strength gains (as I was told I would with the cycle I did).

A bit of knee pain has returned.

I'm having a real problem with my shoulders. There is pain and stiffness when I bench or overhead press. On bench, I can't even get the bar to touch my chest with my normal grip, so the stiffness is a real problem. Not sure if it's actually related to the juice though.

One funny thing about this thread - PLers use AAS all the time and not many of them have less than 30% body fat. The whole point is actually pretty moot if you're not a bodybuilder.

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## poshjoss

Somebody said on one of the other forums on thi site that fat cell also carry the aromatase enzyme,(have I got that right), so the idea is that if you have high body fat and use an aromatizable steroid then your eostrogen sides will be that much worse.
 Apparently the French Foreign Legion is great for losing body fat (possibly sanity), Don't know what their maximum recruitment age is. Or you could try doing the Paris-Dakar rally on a mountain bike.

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## guest589745

fat cells contain androgen receptors as well.

I am not trying to justify high BF%'s but Im just throwin that out.

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## BigJames

I did my first cycle at about 18% BF (6'1" 230 lbs). I wanted to go for it and did. I went up to about 248 lbs and definitely looked leaner. After the cycle I lost some water weight and cut my calories to start to lean out...I am now 230lbs and MUCH leaner than I was before my cycle. Would I do it again? No. I am planning a second cycle for late this year or early next year and I intend to be under 15% before I start (aiming for 12%). I will do this for two reasons: 1) I do not want to get too heavy during my cycle (with fat and water that is) because I found it hard on my knees and 2) I want to be able to see my results more easily. Just my 2 cents.

After years of training and substantial gains, etc....I have learned one thing above all....DIET IS KING.

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## gritt

I know this doesnt apply to everyone but once I got serious, losing weight and BF was not bad. I am glad I did it without doing a cycle in that I not only am building good habits but know that it was not AAS that has gotten me from 260lbs and 31% to 218 and 15%. Changing my life style....now that was brutal. No more alcohol, 6 meals a day (yes, I am f^@^ing hungry sometimes, 45mins of cardio every morning (5 days), 3 x in the evenings during teh week and 3 days of heavy lifting. I count my calories and measure my protein, carbs, etc. Dramatic change and dramatic results.......worth every ounce of sweat.

Now I am researching an AAS cycle for a newbie and feel I have earned it now that I have everything else in check.

My point - AAS to me is the aid to get to your goals; not the means.

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## Remington

Still here....still fat.
ArghhhhH! ! ! ! !! !

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## drpza333

cool thread .

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## cj1capp

> cool thread .


anny change in body composition ? any increase in strength and muscle mass are your close fitting better ?

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## animator

I was in exactly the same boat as big james above. I feel much better. I say...do the cycle, hit the gym. Diet is king.

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## omni

I am 30 yrs and as of one month ago over 20% BF. I am now at about 17% BF. I know the desire to accelerate the fat loss with a cutting cycle (which I have never done). I think that many of us older guys forget that it is _still_ absolutely possible to manage fat without doing a cycle. 30 minutes of cardio every other day along with a completely new and healthy diet has done wonders for my physique and energy levels - all within one month. Just my experience.

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## zaggahamma

> I am 30 yrs and as of one month ago over 20% BF. I am now at about 17% BF. I know the desire to accelerate the fat loss with a cutting cycle (which I have never done). I think that many of us older guys forget that it is _still_ absolutely possible to manage fat without doing a cycle. 30 minutes of cardio every other day along with a completely new and healthy diet has done wonders for my physique and energy levels - all within one month. Just my experience.


yep possible for SOME....i needed TRT doses to achieve similar results you mention

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## cj1capp

> anny change in body composition ? any increase in strength and muscle mass are your close fitting better ?


bump for an answer

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