# STEROIDS FORUM > ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS > EDUCATIONAL THREADS >  Post your Cycle Theory/Hypothesis

## Pinnacle

Hopefully this thread will stimulate/generate some intellectual conversation.Something this board is in dire need of.
I'll start things off with my thoughts/theory/approach.

I'm a advocate of high dose cycles.Many might disagree with that approach.But that's what works best for ME. True,the human body does appear to get a tolerance to anabolics over time(as with any drug for that matter).But,if you don't run your cycles in close succession,there won't be a great need to ramp your doses up to quickly.I've also found that on high dose cycles,your receptors seems to down regulate rather quickly.Also,it's apparent to me SHBG levels elevate quickly on higher doses.Once that happens,gains cease.In my last two cycles I observed this.Particularly on my current cycle.After stopping masteron at week 8 my gains halted.That sends a red flag up saying my SHBG levels rose sharply.(As we know masteron,winny and a few other drugs are known to decrease SHBG levels).So this observation lends credence to what research has shown us.
With that said.My new cycle theory will be that of esterless, or short ester gear.For short 6 week,burst type cycles(for putting on size)I'll take this approach as to reduce the risk of elevated SHBG levels while running high doses.I will also add some sort of DHT derivative(quick acting) drug to the mini cycles as well.This will also aid in reducing SHBG levels.Adding proviron or similar will help in controlling estrogen since we know that estrogen binds to the same SHBG as androgens,and when you lower SHBG levels(with a DHT type drug) you are also elevating bio-available estrogen.

~Pinnacle~

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## Mesomorphyl

I tried shorter cycles. I also agree partially with receptor downreg. But I am leaning towards diet as the main culprit. I have tried test, no test, low test(right now)... I like longer cycles with 1.5-2gram per week total without orals. I do believe the body will get use to size the longer it is that size; hemostasis.

Oh, and LMAO at the opening sentence.

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## symatech

I think the method one chooses to cycle is directly related to his or her goals. We all have to be completely honest and serious when we devise our cycles to achieve the goals we want, but more importantly we have to truly understand what goals we _do_ want (which is the hard part). Everybody wants to be big, everybody has different ideas of what big really is, and very few of us are content with where we are. This is the main problem to address (at least I think) when we design cycles.

Personally, I like shorter cycles (neighborhood of 6-8 weeks of short esters ED injections). I like these because they suit my goals. I have no aspirations to compete, or drop jaws as I'm walking down the street. If I wanted to be the 300lb behemoth then short cycles would not get me there (at least IMO). If that's where I wanted to be I'd be on multiple grams of multiple compounds for maybe half a year at a time. 

What I don't like about long cycles is the long recovery time. I don't like pct drugs and how they make me feel. I like being in a clear state of mind, unaffected by unreal fluctuations in my blood hormone levels. Maybe I take longer to recover than most people, maybe my hormones (or lack thereof) manifest undesirable emotions more so than other people, maybe I just don't deal with it as well. Who knows what the answer is, the only important point is that to me, it doesn't matter what the answer is I just take steps to avoid it. Since I don't have any ambition to be freaky big, I don't need to run the long cycles which I don't like anyways. So it works out.

It is my opinion that the best way to keep gains comes not from staying on for long periods of time to 'adjust', but rather from recovering naturally so your own test production impedes the loss of gains. Without any doubt the fastest recovery comes from shortest cycles. This is yet another reason that I consider when designing a cycle. It is all these factors (and probably more) that we each have to take into account -and for each of us they are different- when we research and construct our cycles. If we truly spend time researching the possible outcomes of our cycles, then the worst case scenario is something we have already considered and what's more accepted before we cycle. Therefore I don't think there is one right way to take any anabolic steroids , and so long as we retain a lesson learned there is never any failure either.

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## Pinnacle

On a huge board as this is,only two other men have given thought to how they look at/theorize anabolic cycles?


~Pinnacle~

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## hulkzer

i'm not as experienced as you three, but from my previous cycles and research. im gunna stick to 3-8wk cycles of fast acting compounds @ high doses. i seam to take a long time to recover, so pct feels like it lasts forever. just my two cents.
zer_

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## righton

I usually advocate a low dose first cycle(200-250mg/wk) per anabolic instead of the large dose (500 or so)that most say is needed to get very good gains. Considering the body produces alot less than that naturally anything above baseline(70mg/wk or so) would do very well. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED!!!LOL.

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## BajanBastard

Can i drink winny?


























Letrozole can do a better job than the provion for your SHBG. I think longer cycle are better due to the fact that when your body reaches homeostasis at the goal body fat and lean mass it will be easier to keep in the long run. Honestly I don't believe in cycling (though I’m not very experienced in the area) I when I use again I’ll be 'on' until my desired bodybuilding goals are reached. I'll just stagger my dosages and switch up drugs along the way.

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## j martini

I like longer cycles. I basically just use test and nothing else, as my theory is/was that test was best with more bang for my buck so why bother with other AAS like deca or EQ.

But after reading all the info and debate o this site recently about SHBG and receptor downregulation and how its best to switch compounds to keep your body guessing i will in future be experimenting with other AAS.

I will also likely add a small dose of letro and maybe 50mg of winny ED as DHT derivitive to counteract elevates SHBG levels while on cycle.

So to sum up, with experience and added knowledge my cycle theorys are constantly changing as i gather more information on the most effective way to use AAS.

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## SPIKE

WTF!!! My AR was down all day!!! I had this typed up and couldnt even post it!!!! Alright, lets see what we can conclude from each one of our experiences




I'm sure that this thread was sparked out of interest from a previous thread that started out talking about recpetors and escalated with every post leaning towards SHBG levels. Threads like that and this one I think are most important. But for reasons we wont speak about they get bumped down dam fast. I'd probably have to skip to page 5 to find that thread on Receptors I'm talking about

Sometimes I like to lay back and read awesome threads like that. Threads that make you actually stop and think rather then skimming through with a new thought for every sentence. I can tell this thread will be another elaborate, educated, and most importantly informative one.

Obviosuly PInn you know that I"m younger then you so I'll comment on my experience and what has worked for me. Higher doses have always worked for you and thats something that I've always leaned towards. The reason I havent just yet is b/c I follow a time on = time off protocol. I run 3-4 months cycles tops, typically 2 a year. Some like to say that I"m on year round b/c I cycle GH and Slin and now LR3. But we both know thats not true. 

In saying that, I have been cycling for about 5 years and like to keep my body refreshed with new items all the time. Like this past cycle, I used Test E, EQ, Dianabol , Var, Tren -A, GH, LR3, and slin but at all differnt times. Just kept the Test E and EQ constant. What you said about Masteron /Winny and SHBG levels was totally accurate!!! This past cutter I ran Prop, Var, Primo and tacked on the last 4 weeks of Winny. After my 3 months of being on the Primo and Prop I felt my gains progressively slowing down. Then I added 4 weeks of Winny to the Mix and it felt like when I started again. Some would have upped the Dose but I feel that upping the dose will work but temporarily until your body gets accustmoed to it. It would flood receptors with the same gear but keeping SHBG levels constant. By introducing, as you said Mast or Winny that are known for decreasing SHBG, you would give an added benefit to your body allowing to continue to gain.

Now as I said this is what has worked for me. It's obvious that not all will agree with me or you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and different things work for different people. If you find something that works for you dont let anyone says it could be better. The grass isnt always greener on the other side. Obviously Meso knows that, he;s been cutting that grass every since I joined AR.

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## *Narkissos*

My cycle hypothesis?

Here's the link: 

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=201798

It's rough...and new info has surfaced since i wrote it. I'll address it and perfect it during the coming year.

Then i'll put it into practice to determine its practicability.

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## topvega

> On a huge board as this is,only two other men have given thought to how they look at/theorize anabolic cycles?
> 
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Some of us have this thing called a job that we have to go to most days........ :Wink/Grin:  I can't exactly post on here from my truck... God that wld be great though... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  



Although I am 37 yrs old, I am just a wee little lad in the world of anabolics. My theories on anabolics are still being molded by individuals like yourself who posses a wealth of experience and knowledge... as well as trial and error on my part. I just finished pct on a 20 weeker and the thought of waiting 20 weeks before indulging in another cycle makes me sad. With that being said I will be trying a shorter cycle of fast acting esters next cycle.

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## BajanBastard

> My cycle hypothesis?
> 
> Here's the link: 
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=201798
> 
> It's rough...and new info has surfaced since i wrote it. I'll address it and perfect it during the coming year.
> 
> Then i'll put it into practice to determine its practicability.


Your theory is  :Bs:

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## *Narkissos*

> Your theory is


 :Aajack:  

I got some 'theory' for you bish... why weren't you in the gym tonight?

 :Wink/Grin:

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## tough old man

For years I used to think long cycles where the way to go. The problem with that was after about 6-8 weeks everything came to a hault. So I started upping the doses hoping that I could continue on with the long cycles. It help but there was no end in site. The dosage just became redicous. At one time in the mid 80's I was injecting 3 grams of test a week and my only stacks were D-bol and Anadrol . No other injectables. 

Now I have been back at it again. My first one back was 12 weeks followed by 16 weeks. I started off with 750 mg of test for those 12 weeks along w/D-bol @ 40 mgs for the first 4 weeks. Gains were nice. The next cycle was 750 test and 600 deca for 16 weeks with d-bol 1-+4. Gains were ok again but not as good as the first one back. 3rd cycle was test 750mgs and Eq @800. Was disappointed in the results after 10 weeks so i stopped. It seems like all my gains regardless of how much i do come within 6 weeks. 

So now I'm on a year long cycle. It consist of 6 weeks on and three weeks off. The off weeks i do PCT and hrt @ 250 mgs of test. I'm on my 3 week of the 2nd cycle. Here is what this cycle looks like. Now one problem I'm having is that at the age of 53, I'm finding it harder everyday to eat what's needed to gain weight. I have to watch what i eat or here comes the FAT. 

Week 1-4 Test @750mg
Week 1-6 Tren A
Week 5 and 6 Test Prop @ 200mg EoD. 
Off three weeks with PCT and Clomid and third cycle will be
Weeks 1-4 Test E @ 750 mgs
weeks 1-6 EQ @800
Weeks 5 and 6 Prop @ 200mg EOD

I'm giving this a go for a year. I will stay with 6 weekers cause after that 6 weeks I see no more gains. 

These liitle 6 weekers seem to be working for me if i can keep the eating up to par. I mean 4000 cals clean is tough on an old person. My strength has gone up everytimewith the above. In matter of fact after the 3 weks off crusing, I came back just as strong and by the 2nd week beat my log book al to shit. 

So right now i believe in shorty's. well see how it goes in the next 6 months if i continue to gain. Also note I will not increase the dosage of test. I might increase the EQ if anything as I go.

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## topvega

Wldn't doing any sort of pct while continuing to administer 250mg of test a week be a waste of time? U will remain shut down. :Hmmmm:

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## Wildcatbadass

Althought, I'm not experienced in years of cycles. I have a couple opinions that I have formed. Being an athlete I'd have to say my goals arent visibly intended. However, I do agree that everyone will build up a tolerance to AAS because of our receptors downgrade. I also think we are at our prime for aas at around 26-30yrs old because our metabolisms' are higher than later and we can put the calories to do use and Test is higher. Think about it for you guys that are older. What you would do if you could go back and redo it all? Really hit it harder with a good diet while still being able to cheat and it wouldnt affect you as much.

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## Igifuno

As stated, the human body develops a tolerance to AS over time, therefore higher doses are usually applied for those with experience. Even more common, is not following time on=time off which I think this contributes to the need of taking higher doses, not to mention it can be dangerous. I am constantly being educated in the subject of AS and how to use them, but it never ceases to amaze me how many users do not read, study, follow proper pct and do not take advantage of joining boards such as this one. As far as the higher doses go and the need (my opinion) to do them because of tolerence levels, doesn't the body still only use a limited amount of the steroid which would subsquently increase the chances of the higher dose to convert to estrogen? This is surely grounds for being an advocate of shorter ester or esterless steroids , although I think if one allows thier body to recover properly, the need for extremely high doses may not be necessary.

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## tough old man

> Wldn't doing any sort of pct while continuing to administer 250mg of test a week be a waste of time? U will remain shut down.


this is a DC method and I'm giving it a shot. Hell at 53 I'm planning on HRT for my remaining days on planet earth anyways. Good trhing about mexico. I just run around the corner if i need more test if I stop making my own.

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## BajanBastard

> I got some 'theory' for you bish... why weren't you in the gym tonight?


It was leg day. :1hifu:

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## Pinnacle

> Wldn't doing any sort of pct while continuing to administer 250mg of test a week be a waste of time? U will remain shut down.


Very hot topic bro.This has been beaten around on some very intellectual boards.Nandi has gone at it with Big Cat years back.Dante(aka DoggCrapp) has been defending his stance on this case well.

I'll stay out of this one.

~Pinnacle~

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## topvega

> Very hot topic bro.This has been beaten around on some very intellectual boards.Nandi has gone at it with Big Cat years back.Dante(aka DoggCrapp) has been defending his stance on this case well.
> 
> I'll stay out of this one.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~



Well I still have awhile before becoming a lifer.......... :Wink/Grin:  hopefully by the time I do become one we will have a definitive answer on this....

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## Pinnacle

> Think about it for you guys that are older. What you would do if you could go back and redo it all? Really hit it harder with a good diet while still being able to cheat and it wouldnt affect you as much.


Great point. I'm 37 and having metabolism issues already I have to be very careful what I eat. Indeed I consume alot of cals ED.But at a certain point into turns into fat.Probably effecting my gains on a cycle since I'm not looking to put on extra BF. I'll settle for a few less pounds of LBM over increased BF. It's getting harder and harder to take the BF off these days. That equates to using expensive drugs like IGF to help shed off those extra few pounds.


~Pinnacle~

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## Pinnacle

> As stated, the human body develops a tolerance to AS over time, therefore higher doses are usually applied for those with experience. Even more common, is not following time on=time off which I think this contributes to the need of taking higher doses,


Exactly. Cycles ran in close succession is the main reason why one would need to increase the dose heavily on the next cycle. Others factors come into play,but this point can't be over looked.


~Pinnacle~

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## need2Bbig

OK two issues as i quickly skimmed through here... def. no expert by far but, old man you say that on long estered cycles your gains halt of 6-8 WEEKS?? WTF.... that doesnt even make sense?!?!?!?!?!? I keep on reading on here that EQ, for example, usually kicks in about week 6, AND test about week 4-5... SO WHAT YOUR SAYING is after 2 to 3 weeks of growing your gains halt???uhhhhhhhh...?

...and PINN you suggest that high dose cycles send your SBGH levels up and gains slow down, so why are people running 1g+ of test a week, and if they do this then they should include a DHT derived drug...does that only apply to test, or other compounds like deca , tren , primo?

trying to participate in an intelligent convo..ha, trying!

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## Pinnacle

> OK two issues as i quickly skimmed through here... def. no expert by far but, old man you say that on long estered cycles your gains halt of 6-8 WEEKS?? WTF.... that doesnt even make sense?!?!?!?!?!? I keep on reading on here that EQ, for example, usually kicks in about week 6, AND test about week 4-5... SO WHAT YOUR SAYING is after 2 to 3 weeks of growing your gains halt???uhhhhhhhh...?
> 
> ...and PINN you suggest that high dose cycles send your SBGH levels up and gains slow down, so why are people running 1g+ of test a week, and if they do this then they should include a DHT derived drug...does that only apply to test, or other compounds like deca , tren , primo?
> 
> trying to participate in an intelligent convo..ha, trying!


I'll let Tough Old Man speak for himself on that topic.


People,including myself, run much higher doses than 1g wkly of Test.What needs to be done is bring SHBG levels low to free up more Test.You can do this with DHT derivatives,also aromasin lowers SHBG levels as well.At the same time you need to control bio-available estrogen you just freed up.That's where proviron or a similar drug comes into play. All drugs compete for the same receptor,but in the case of reducing SHBG, Testosterone would be the drug you are trying to free up. I can't comment on Deca,primo ect. Only speculate, which is worthless in the thread of this caliber.

~Pinnacle~

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## marcus300

over the years ive been on and off gear ive tried more or less every combination going, i know my own body and how it responds to gear, ive done short burst cycles at high levels of test, infact the late Paul Borreson told me to try it, and i must say they do work and i respond very well and built quaility mass,but they are not for everyone i am a big believer that when people use chemicals there is no set rule, people respond differently so there is no right or wrong you have to try it and see how your body reacts, also have to pick the right test for the job and other compounds to react correctly with each other for the short cycle burst,
ive also tried the long cycles with low test and high test, which i do love, but its very hard to get everything working correctly when your off, it takes so long to recover even with all the PCT compounds available,its a must you follow time on = time off for heavy long cycles, i use both methords personaly i will start a short heavy burst cycle then the next long heavy cycle or long low test,
i do know alot of people on this board dont like short cycles but if the right compounds are mixed they are very very effective and a lot of mass can be obtained...

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## IBdmfkr

Great topic, I'm with Jay on this one. I am much younger and don't have near the experience some of the older guys have but am trying to expell the BS from what is real and actually works. I do agree people will respond differently to diff. compounds and cycle lengths, so this being said I believe the only true way of knowing what works for you individually is simple trial and error. Aside from the facts and knowledge you can obtain from reading, it still all comes down to what works for each individual. Don't have much to comment on cyclewise, I have a lot more experimenting to do before I understand how and what my body reacts to best. 
Good thread Pinnacle, hope to see more of the older/experienced users give their thoughts.

BD

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## I_Want_Abs

hey guys, allright i am still pretty young and have only just finished my 1st cycle consisting of 400mg test cyp 10 weeks + 40mg dbol ed 6 weeks so i am no where near as experienced as alot of you are and i still have alot of research to do on other compounds and there effects on my body so i wont comment on anything as yet but i am looking forward to reading all the replys to this thread....

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## Igifuno

/\/\/\/\/\

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## Schwarz

> Hopefully this thread will stimulate/generate some intellectual conversation.Something this board is in dire need of.
> I'll start things off with my thoughts/theory/approach.
> 
> I'm a advocate of high dose cycles.Many might disagree with that approach.But that's what works best for ME. *True,the human body does appear to get a tolerance to anabolics over time(as with any drug for that matter).But,if you don't run your cycles in close succession,there won't be a great need to ramp your doses up to quickly.I've also found that on high dose cycles,your receptors seems to down regulate rather quickly*.Also,it's apparent to me SHBG levels elevate quickly on higher doses.Once that happens,gains cease.In my last two cycles I observed this.Particularly on my current cycle.After stopping masteron at week 8 my gains halted.That sends a red flag up saying my SHBG levels rose sharply.(As we know masteron,winny and a few other drugs are known to decrease SHBG levels).So this observation lends credence to what research has shown us.
> With that said.My new cycle theory will be that of esterless, or short ester gear.For short 6 week,burst type cycles(for putting on size)I'll take this approach as to reduce the risk of elevated SHBG levels while running high doses.I will also add some sort of DHT derivative(quick acting) drug to the mini cycles as well.This will also aid in reducing SHBG levels.Adding proviron or similar will help in controlling estrogen since we know that estrogen binds to the same SHBG as androgens,and when you lower SHBG levels(with a DHT type drug) you are also elevating bio-available estrogen.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


This is a really interesting topic. having finished my first cycle last week (on PCT phase now) I have already begun wondering about my dosages for the next cycle so will be following this discussion closely.

I have a question in relation to what you said above. If your admission is that high dose long cycles down-regulate the receptor so you advocate shorter cycles with short ester AAS. So how then do you explain:

(A) people who are cycle all year round - From reading the boards these people usually use moderate/high levels of AAS How do these people get around the problem of down regulated receptors?
(B) Similar to A are the HRT ppl - although they usually get prescribed lower doses surely over a number of years of treatment they will also experience heavy resistance to the AAS by their bodies
(C) The pros. They surely must use huge amounts of AAS for extra long periods of time. How come they seem to continue to grow?

Apologies if my questions seem dumb. Just something that I thought didn't add up...

Cheers
S

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## SPIKE

> also have to pick the right test for the job and other compounds to react correctly with each other for the short cycle burst,



SYNERGY SYNERGY SYNERGY!!!!! God I Love that word!!! 


Perfectly said about combining the correct compounds. Some have no idea what to run with what. But in a thread like this I"m sure we all know what works best with what. I'm personally trying to pick and pull bits of info in order to conclude a new theory that might actually produce better results in the future.


Bizump in the Hizzy

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## SPIKE

> Great topic, I'm with Jay on this one. I am much younger and don't have near the experience some of the older guys have but am trying to expell the BS from what is real and actually works.




Sometimes we need to sit back BD and let the more experienced big guys discuss. A discussion as this one is biased but there a plenty of experienced people on here that have tried everything. 

I'm hoping this thread gets a lot more attention. With 45,000 members there has to be some people that have tried it all. A topic like this can conclude with information that could help us all. Let's see what works for who and possibly expell why?

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## marcus300

> SYNERGY SYNERGY SYNERGY!!!!! God I Love that word!!! 
> 
> 
> Perfectly said about combining the correct compounds. Some have no idea what to run with what. But in a thread like this I"m sure we all know what works best with what. I'm personally trying to pick and pull bits of info in order to conclude a new theory that might actually produce better results in the future.
> 
> 
> Bizump in the Hizzy


 :7up:   :7up:   :Wink/Grin:

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## goalseeker

awesome thread... I could sit and read ones like this all day.. Very valuable..we must have more of these..Like Jay said, great to read all the big guys history, it has helped me in understanding all those little things that I wasnt 100% sure about. And also makes me comfortable with my next cycle..Time to increase doses substantially, and see how it works for my body.. Good job you guys!!

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## Pinnacle

> (A) people who are cycle all year round - From reading the boards these people usually use moderate/high levels of AAS How do these people get around the problem of down regulated receptors?
> (B) Similar to A are the HRT ppl - although they usually get prescribed lower doses surely over a number of years of treatment they will also experience heavy resistance to the AAS by their bodies
> (C) The pros. They surely must use huge amounts of AAS for extra long periods of time. How come they seem to continue to grow?
> 
> Apologies if my questions seem dumb. Just something that I thought didn't add up...
> 
> Cheers
> S


All good questions,and not dumb by any means.

I'll answer your questions in the order they were asked.(I'm only on my first cup of coffee,so please excuse me if the answers seem vague :Wink/Grin:  )


A).The guys that cycle all year round usually aren't on a constant cycle.They have cruise periods where they'll run a low dose of test for a few months to just retain there gains made on cycle.When they go back on cycle,they bump there Test dose up rather high(usually) and add totally different compounds than that of what they ran in the previous cycle.marcus300 briefly touched on that topic.And it is a rather important one.It's the key to cycling successfully IMO.Other factors come into play as well.Like regulating SHBG levels.If this is done correctly,you can keep gains coming on a cycle.I touched on this in my opening post.

B)With HRT,you are just trying to keep your Test levels at what they were when you were around 25 yrs old.I see what you are getting at,but HRT protocol is a whole nother thread.I'll just leave it at that.

C).The pros.I addressed this in answer "A" to some degree.But drugs play a huge factor here.They are using all kinds of drugs to keep the gains coming.LR3 IGF-1,myostatin blockers,HGH,insulin ,and they too go on cruise periods(most anyway).So there cycles can be quite complicated.But they also keep SHBG levels low,and also control there estrogen levels ect.

Hope this helps a little with your questions.If your still confused I/we can get into this a little more in detail.

~Pinnacle~

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## tough old man

> Exactly. Cycles ran in close succession is the main reason why one would need to increase the dose heavily on the next cycle. Others factors come into play,but this point can't be over looked.
> 
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Well I'm your guinea pig here. I'm not going to up my doses this time around. I will stay at 750 mgs of test and 800 EQ or 150mgs of Tren EOD for this year long cycle. As long as my strength continues and it is, then I know I'm adding size. I mean why add more if not needed. Personally I think these shorty's is going to be the clue to keeping doses level. I'll find out when the third and fourth cycle shows up.

Note: Test is going to be my base. I may lower the dosage of test to 250 mgs and up the other compound to equal

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## Pinnacle

> I disagree I'm your guinea pig here. I'm not going to up my doses this time around. I will stay at 750 mgs of test and 800 EQ or 150mgs of Tren EOD for this year long cycle. As long as my strength continues and it is, then I know I'm adding size. I mean why add more if not needed. Personally I think these shorty's is going to be the clue to keeping doses level. I'll find out when the third and fourth cycle shows up.
> 
> Note: Test is going to be my base. I may lower the dosage of test to 250 mgs and up the other compound to equal


It's perfectly fine to disagree TOM.But I think you are in disagreement a little too early in the game since your experiment has only just begun.Personally I think you'll hit plateau's rather quickly running the same drugs constantly in the same cycles.
i know you are basing your cycle theory on that of DoggCrapps,but he has guys run short,or no ester Testosterone for the mini cycles.He doesn't advocate enanthate in short runs like that,and certainly wouldn't advocate EQ in a mini cycle as well.In a nut shell.He has guys run suspension for 6 weeks,and cruise for another 3 weeks or so an prop.That is the foundation of his cycles.He doesn't recommend using alot of drugs.He likes test only cycles for the most part.

Anyway,good luck on your experiment.Hope it works out well for ya.

~Pinnacle~

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## goalseeker

> I disagree I'm your guinea pig here. I'm not going to up my doses this time around. I will stay at 750 mgs of test and 800 EQ or 150mgs of Tren EOD for this year long cycle. As long as my strength continues and it is, then I know I'm adding size. I mean why add more if not needed. Personally I think these shorty's is going to be the clue to keeping doses level. I'll find out when the third and fourth cycle shows up.
> 
> Note: Test is going to be my base. I may lower the dosage of test to 250 mgs and up the other compound to equal


why is your eq higher than your test? shouldnt test always be higher?

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## marcus300

> I disagree I'm your guinea pig here. I'm not going to up my doses this time around. I will stay at 750 mgs of test and 800 EQ or 150mgs of Tren EOD for this year long cycle. As long as my strength continues and it is, then I know I'm adding size. I mean why add more if not needed. Personally I think these shorty's is going to be the clue to keeping doses level. I'll find out when the third and fourth cycle shows up.
> 
> Note: Test is going to be my base. I may lower the dosage of test to 250 mgs and up the other compound to equal


all i can commet on is my own experience's and i have a cycle diary which goes back over ten years, and i can say running the same test on long cycles at the same doesage over and over doesnt work for me, infact looking back in the diary the short cycles and short time off ive built more muscle and mass and kept all the gains, in my opinion you have keep swapping the test's and mixing between short cycles and long, its the mixure of different compounds you use what are very important to keep producing gains, i know exactly which compounds will drive new muscle gains and which stacks will work for what i am looking for,,,best bet is try it and find out what works for you

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## Pinnacle

> in my opinion you have keep swapping the test's and mixing between short cycles and long, its the mixure of different compounds you use what are very important to keep producing gains, i know exactly which compounds will drive new muscle gains and which stacks will work for what i am looking for


AWESOME!!!!


The epitome of of experience!!


Couldn't agree more!!Read this post and you've learned valuable secrets!

~Pinnacle~

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## marcus300

> AWESOME!!!!
> 
> 
> The epitome of of experience!!
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more!!Read this post and you've learned valuable secrets!
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


thanks Pinn,

 :Wink/Grin:

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## SPIKE

> I'm not going to up my doses this time around. I will stay at 750 mgs of test and 800 EQ or 150mgs of Tren EOD for this year long cycle.





Personally from my experience (as I"m sure you have more) after about 3 months or so at the same dose results seem to slow down and sometimes cease. That is a sign to either add something new to the puzzle or time to come off. In my case at the age of 25 I feel its better to come off. Natty levels recover quite quickly at my age and I"ll take a few months off before trying something again.

I would think for someone as yourself something like Pinn stated in thread #35 (A) would work great. I think you thought about that in your note when you stated that you might drop your dosage to 250mgs for some time. But then that contridicts your initial statement of being on for a year straight at 750mgs. I know how it is, I"m sure you have 100 different approaches in your head just contemplating which one to use.

Either way I wish you the best and keep us updated. I love to hear how it's going.

----------


## shortie

Trying to get my thoughts gathered, may take awhile but bear with me.

Having run SHIC cycles as well as long term cycles(although nothing over 16 wks)I tend to be in favor of the longer run. I had good gains on SHIC type cycle but with less retention than those over a longer period of time. Now, I didn't try to cycle again immediately after and maybe this would eliminate/temper gain loss. Having read through the recent posts Pinnacle has brought out as well as doing some reading elsewhere I have some thoughts on how I will attempt my next cycle. 

First off, from reading said articles I believe one of the key points is that while ARs upregulate for the first portion of the cycle, 8 wks and then begin to downregulate to a level closer to those without AAS. My thinking is that the body gets a rush of exogenous hormones and this stimulates AR production, but with time the body begins to see this as homeostasis and downregulates the AR production process. To combat this I am going to theorize(as well as try it in my next cycle)that one could run the first 7-8 wks of their cycle at a given dose, say 500mg wk, and then in the 8th wk bump this dose to say 800. This should, if I am correct, cause the body to stimulate AR upregulation once again as it will be seen not as homeostasis but heightened hormonal levels.

Secondly, I consider SHBG and it's control. SHBG upregulates on a cycle thus affecting the amount of bio-available test and affecting gains. My thinking here is to, in a longer cycle, leave all SHGB controlling components out of my cycle until the 8th wk or so when SHGB level have risen significantly. At this point I will throw in an agent that has SHGB inhibiting properties, such as Proviron , Winstrol , Masteron , or basically any DHT based steroid . This should hopefully inhibit my SHBG to a level allowing continued growth. 

Hopefully between these two efforts I will allow myself to continue to show gains on my next summer cycle of 16 wks throughout the regimen. Anyhow that's what I have been thinking. And I will put it to practical use this summer.

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## musclestack

Don't know if this is off-topic or not, but could someone name the compounds one could take to keep SHBG levels lowered?

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## shortie

Any DHT derived steroid will do the

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## Mesomorphyl

> why is your eq higher than your test? shouldnt test always be higher?


Not for me this time around. I think test a base could be viewed as just replacing natural levels of it while on other anabolics that shut down your natural levels. Like 200-250mg of cyp or enanthate per week as a replacement dose.

Everyone wanting to gain 5 lbs per week for 16 weeks is ludicrist. That would translate into 80 pounds. Just reading this stuff has made me think a bit about gains... OK, first I notice that after a longer cycle there are a few points where gains rize and fall. Example gains in the 6 week fall off around 9-10 weeks but then again at 12-16 another growth spurt. This may or may not have a thing to do with dht derived compounds added to the cycle. But I will say when I have gained big you can loose alot, but I found (for me mind you) that your body gets use to the mass if you are on longer; hemostasis. To add to that, at least your body will be in a non-catabolic state to get use to the newly acquired mass... even if you are not gaining per se.

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## MASTER

I personally like to do a 12 week bulker ( 2 injectables, oral kickstart, oral hardener at the end eg halo), with a 6 week primo bridge, then run a 12 week cutter (2 or 3 injectables and var). Hcg is run throughout and pct is extended to 8 weeks.
Example last cycle i did
Sust 1-6 1000mg e/w, 7-12 1250mg
Deca 1-12 800mg e/w
Drol 1-7 150mg ed
Halo - 8-12 50mg ed
nolva 20mg ed 1-30
Hcg 1-12 500ius e/w (2 shots a week), 13-18 1000ius e/w, 19-30 500ius e/w
13-19 primo depot 300mg e/w
13-19 proviron 50mg ed
19-30 tren 75mg ed
19-30 eq 800mg e/w
19-30 sust 1000mg e/w
25-30 var 60mg ed
adex .5 mg e/d 19-30

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## Pinnacle

Nice shortie!!

That theory might work,in regards to the 8 week mark.It appears lower doses of Test don't raise SHBG levels that much early in cycles.It's when you are running a gram or more is when SHBG levels spike quickly in a cycle.
Nice Hypothesis ....I see you're paying attention!!


~Pinnacle~

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## MASTER

> Hopefully this thread will stimulate/generate some intellectual conversation.Something this board is in dire need of.
> I'll start things off with my thoughts/theory/approach.
> 
> I'm a advocate of high dose cycles.Many might disagree with that approach.But that's what works best for ME. True,the human body does appear to get a tolerance to anabolics over time(as with any drug for that matter).But,if you don't run your cycles in close succession,there won't be a great need to ramp your doses up to quickly.I've also found that on high dose cycles,your receptors seems to down regulate rather quickly.Also,it's apparent to me SHBG levels elevate quickly on higher doses.Once that happens,gains cease.In my last two cycles I observed this.Particularly on my current cycle.After stopping masteron at week 8 my gains halted.That sends a red flag up saying my SHBG levels rose sharply.(As we know masteron,winny and a few other drugs are known to decrease SHBG levels).So this observation lends credence to what research has shown us.
> With that said.My new cycle theory will be that of esterless, or short ester gear.For short 6 week,burst type cycles(for putting on size)I'll take this approach as to reduce the risk of elevated SHBG levels while running high doses.I will also add some sort of DHT derivative(quick acting) drug to the mini cycles as well.This will also aid in reducing SHBG levels.Adding proviron or similar will help in controlling estrogen since we know that estrogen binds to the same SHBG as androgens,and when you lower SHBG levels(with a DHT type drug) you are also elevating bio-available estrogen.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Yeh i def agree with u on the doses bro, but the doses i used to do are nothing compared to what u do, but i guess they wud porbs be similar by now if i hadnt gone 4eva natty.

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## Smedman101

Pinnacle, GREAT post man! I have read every word from each member so far and every body has great input.
I have a a good friend of mine that I wish would get on here.. hes 42 and has been on the juice since he was 26 he has alot of info for me that could help others....he "was" pro wrestler for WCW... back in the day. and he still a monster at 275lbs....
He tells that he would take as much his body would take. He claims that his best achivements came from HGH cycle kits he did 4, (not all at once) back in the day! With the aid of ass...And that was years ago! 

Keep in mind, This is what he says was his secret....

I know for the past three years hes done noting but fina and eq...I guess its his way to maintain or cruise thru to keep his size.

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## Pinnacle

*Here's some studies to ponder over for those interested in SHBG.*

Lek 1992 Sep;38(9):879-86 
[A laboratory test for the detection of androgen resistance using sex hormone-binding globulin]
Hampl R, Starka L, Snajderova M, Lachman M, Kalvachova B.

A simple laboratory test for disclosure of peripheral androgen insensitivity has been suggested. The test is based on determination of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) following single administration of testosterone preparation (Testoviron Depot, Schering, 2 mg/kg of body weight). The kinetics of SHBG response to exogenous testosterone was investigated first in a group of 5 healthy male volunteers. The highest highly significant decrease of SHBG level occurred 7th day after drug administration. The method of choice for SHBG determination is an immunoradiometric assay (IRMA). The test was used for a group of 15 children and young people suspected for androgen sensitivity disorder. In all cases, besides SHBG on days 0 and 7 testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and LH were measured, too. In three instances the response was negative: in the case of male Turner syndrome, with very low basal SHBG levels, in one case of confirmed diagnosis of testicular feminization and in the third case of suspected testicular feminization, which has not yet been concluded. In all other patients a significant decrease (in average to 62.8% of the basal level) was in agreement with clinical findings.


Endocr Regul 1993 Jun;27(2):65-70 
Evaluation of SHBG test for disclosure of insensitivity to androgens.
Hampl R, Starka L, Kalvachova B, Lachman M, Snajderova M, Lisa L, Zapletalova J, Hill M.
Institute of Endocrinology, Praha, Czech Republic.

A laboratory test enabling to reveal and confirm the suspicion on the insensitivity to androgens was evaluated. The test consisted of determination of the decline in plasma level of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) on the 7th day after administration of a single dose of testosterone preparation (Testoviron Depot 100, Schering, 2 mg/kg body weight). The upper limit of percentual SHBG decline, below which the patients can be considered normal responders (i.e. subjects without insensitivity to androgens), obtained from the follow up of the time course of SHBG changes after Testoviron application to 6 healthy men, was established as 83.6%. The level of percentual SHBG decline, above which the patients were considered non-responders with impaired peripheral sensitivity to androgens was assessed from the imprecision of immunoradiometric determination of SHBG and amounted 91.9%. The test was used and evaluated in 26 patients with 46 XY karyotype, representing various cases of intersex, gonadal dysgenesis and male hypogonadism, out of which four subjects with clinically confirmed impaired peripheral sensitivity to androgens were discovered. The test however, appeared not to be reliable in cases of very low basal SHBG levels, i.e. below 15 nmol/l.

In another study(1) there was a clear dose response relation in decline of SHBG to testosterone enanthate . In the highest dose group (600mg/week test enanthate ) there was a 50% decline in SHBG after 16 weeks. In the 300mg/week group SHBG declined by 30%. 

(1) Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Dec;281(6):E1172-81 

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.

Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.

Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. [email protected]

*And more...*


Sex hormone-binding globulin changes with androgen replacement.

Plymate SR, Leonard JM, Paulsen CA, Fariss BL, Karpas AE.

Since sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels are often elevated in sera of patients with testicular insufficiency, it is important to determine whether SHBG declines into the normal range and the extent of change in free testosterone (free T) after androgen administration. Five normal men and five patients with Klinefelter's syndrome were studied before and after the administration of testosterone enanthate (200 mg, im every 2 weeks). An additional five normal men and five patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) were treated with hCG (2000 U, three times a week). Three months after the administration of T or hCG, serum total and free T increased in both normal men and patients. Free T increased significantly in the Klinefelter's and HH patients from 94 +/- 20 and 14 +/- 5 pg/ml, respectively, to 271 +/- 50 and 276 +/- 41 pg/ml (P less than 0.01; P less than 0.001). The increase in the normal men treated with T or hCG was also significant (from 211 +/- 52 and 220 +/- 37 pg/ml to 390 +/- 83 and 330 +/- 90 pg/ml). SHBG fell in both the T-treated normal men (from 6.5 +/- 1.2 ng dihydrotestosterone bound/ml to 4.3 +/- 0.4; P less than 0.02) and the T-treated Klinefelter's patients (from 16.4 +/- 2 to 4.3 +/- 0.5; P less than 0.01). However, it was unchanged in the hCG-treated HH patients and rose in the hCG-treated normal men (from 6.6 +/- 0.7 to 8.6 +/- 1.0; P less than 0.05). This study demonstrates that treatment of hypogonadal men with T and hCG in the doses used increased free T levels above the basal levels for normal men. However, the effects of the increase in free T, as determined by a change in SHBG, were different depending upon the type of treatment.

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## marcus300

[QUOTE=Smedman101]He claims that his best achivements came from HGH cycle kits he did 4, (not all at once) back in the day! With the aid of ass...

Keep in mind, This is what he says was his secret....

i agree HGH is a wonderfull weapon for putting a touch of class and quality to a physique, i totaly changed when i started using it

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## tough old man

> It's perfectly fine to disagree TOM.But I think you are in disagreement a little too early in the game since your experiment has only just begun.Personally I think you'll hit plateau's rather quickly running the same drugs constantly in the same cycles.
> i know you are basing your cycle theory on that of DoggCrapps,but he has guys run short,or no ester Testosterone for the mini cycles.He doesn't advocate enanthate in short runs like that,and certainly wouldn't advocate EQ in a mini cycle as well.In a nut shell.He has guys run suspension for 6 weeks,and cruise for another 3 weeks or so an prop.That is the foundation of his cycles.He doesn't recommend using alot of drugs.He likes test only cycles for the most part.
> 
> Anyway,good luck on your experiment.Hope it works out well for ya.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Pinnacle, Dante does avocate the use of enanthate as his number one steroid to use. He loves test with tren and test w/EQ. Then use Test prop during the cruise. I can post this for all interested. Just 3 months ago by way of personal emails he set me up with these cycles. I also have the complete cycle for pennies in word format if anyone would like to read it. It's only 404 pages long.

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## tough old man

> why is your eq higher than your test? shouldnt test always be higher?


Testosterone is a high androgenic steroid where Eq is not. So because of my age, the less androgens, the less chance i have raising my blood pressure. Hell at my age high blood Pressure can be a killer. This I try to keep in check. 

Example. Last cycle. Low test dose and high Eq dose. B/P stable at about mid 120's over mid to high 70's

This cycle 750 mgs of test...= my B/P around 140 /90....big dfference mate

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## Pinnacle

> Pinnacle, Dante does avocate the use of enanthate as his number one steroid to use. He loves test with tren and test w/EQ. Then use Test prop during the cruise. I can post this for all interested. Just 3 months ago by way of personal emails he set me up with these cycles. I also have the complete cycle for pennies in word format if anyone would like to read it. It's only 404 pages long.


Interesting!I've only seen cycles that were posted by guys using his protocol.What I posted above is what I've seen written.I know he customizes every cycle for each individual,so *I stand corrected* in regards to your own customized cycle.

I've only read exerts from "cycle for pennies".I'd really like to see the whole thing if possible.


~Pinnacle~

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## SPIKE

This is way too informative of a thread to be all the way down here. 


If some are just catching wind of this thread and dont wish to post due to the time it takes to read all the posts from 1 on, then really take the 5 minutes to skim over it. Tons of info here to change ones complete thoughts on cycling.



Bump for anymore informative info.

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## NYC BIG MIKE

Guess I'll chime in. I'm 43, 5'8" at about 280 now and been gearing for 23 years. I don't think there is a cycle that I haven't tried. I tend to go with an instinctive approach. I listen to my body. The more you know about what each drug is composed of and what it's supposed to do, then the more you can make educated decisions along the way. I've had cycles where I've literally had like 12 different drugs(not at the same time) and rotated them instinctively. Mind you, I've been doing this many years and I know what works for me and what doesn't and for how long. I've done 3 grams of test a week for half a year, I've tried short cycles, stay of GH all year long, come off when I feel its time, run HCG year round. My medicine cabinet looks like a pharmacy shelf.

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## goose

[QUOTE=marcus300]over the years ive been on and off gear ive tried more or less every combination going, i know my own body and how it responds to gear, ive done short burst cycles at high levels of test, infact the late Paul Borreson told me to try it, and i must say they do work and i respond very well and built quaility mass,but they are not for everyone i am a big believer that when people use chemicals there is no set rule, people respond differently so there is no right or wrong you have to try it and see how your body reacts, also have to pick the right test for the job and other compounds to react correctly with each other for the short cycle burst,
ive also tried the long cycles with low test and high test, which i do love, but its very hard to get everything working correctly when your off, it takes so long to recover even with all the PCT compounds available,its a must you follow time on = time off for heavy long cycles, i use both methords personaly i will start a short heavy burst cycle then the next long heavy cycle or long low test.

Looks like your going to hit tren Suspension and test Suspension in a Spectacular manner Pinn.What a fantastic thread,a rare treat on this board.The six week cycle makes alot of sence for you,the science supports your ideas.The more advanced you are,the greater Understanding of biological science is needed to achieve our goals.The search takes us to the extent of the characteristics of each of the three extremes,endomorph,mesomorph,
and ectomorph.
I was taught the traditional method of cycles length.Cycle 12-14 weeks max,and take 3 months rest for your receptors to be at prime condition for anabolic and androgenic responce for your next cycle.I respond well to this length,I recover well in PCT,which allows me not to loose to much gains.I have a couple of favorite anabolics,that I have to run at least,every other cycle.These have to be run around 12 weeks,So this also has made me a firm
supporter of the 12-14 week cycle,for me.I have ran a couple of 6-8 week cycles and liked them because they allowed a reasonable recovery time,and allow quite a bit of time to make gains.Another reseason I like cycles shorter than 3 months is it enables me to take an aggressive approach on dosage,that would be risky running at a long cycle.I have good Judgment evaluating the potential of an anabolic on my body.My ideology is to find anabolics that respond to you in a safe manner,and hit it hard,like no 2moro.
You have to feel how far you can go,it`s a thin red line,that you have to find.
I have ran Var at 140mgs ED in a cycle,and can tell you my strength gains compared to King Kong,a film that we all must see soon.That`s why I am very confident I will reach 200mgs in LR3 in 6 months,I will use this only for PCT,drop one in the middle of the cycle at 100mgs.My aim is to use 200mgs only for PCT,an insurance policy on my cycles gain,another way to trick Gnrh during PCT.So the shorter the cycle,the higher dose Program you can execute.
marcus300 thanks for the Andriol help,thanks mate.I know you use to know paul well,from the same town :Wink/Grin:  as you know he was a specialist at cycles for peolpe that have reached their anabolic limit.He believed in taking one to two thousand milligrams of gear each day.The logic behind this is,he runs the cycles for thirty days, at the most, before your body realizes what happened.We was a believer that receptor sites up-regulate When you do about 5000 milligrams a week, your cells respond unbelievably.You like gain a pound a day.I will try a one month cycle in 06,and see what the results are like.


goose4..............

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## SPIKE

> Guess I'll chime in. I'm 43, 5'8" at about 280 now and been gearing for 23 years. I don't think there is a cycle that I haven't tried. I tend to go with an instinctive approach. I listen to my body. The more you know about what each drug is composed of and what it's supposed to do, then the more you can make educated decisions along the way. I've had cycles where I've literally had like 12 different drugs(not at the same time) and rotated them instinctively. Mind you, I've been doing this many years and I know what works for me and what doesn't and for how long. I've done 3 grams of test a week for half a year, I've tried short cycles, stay of GH all year long, come off when I feel its time, run HCG year round. My medicine cabinet looks like a pharmacy shelf.



Good input and great stats.................So now let me ask you this. What has worked best for you????? You seemed to have tried everything and have been around the block. So what have you concluded to be the best route? For you of course..................

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> Good input and great stats.................So now let me ask you this. What has worked best for you????? You seemed to have tried everything and have been around the block. So what have you concluded to be the best route? For you of course..................



I'm still a sucker for Sustanon 350 EOD, D-bol kickstart 40mgs for 4-6 weeks, Deca at 600 mgs a week, D-bol finish (on a 3 month cycle) for 4 weeks, I run proviron and nolva throughout, use HCG at 1 month and 2 month and at pct. PCT with nolva, clomid, HCG. I run GH 10 IU's daily year round.

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## IBdmfkr

> i have a cycle diary which goes back over ten years


Feel like an idiot, and I'm now writing down my cycle history and What gains I can remember. Glad you posted that, never even thought to do this. Great post marcus. See when you're not being a flaming homosexual, you can have some great posts!  :AaGreen22:

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## IBdmfkr

> I'm still a sucker for Sustanon 350 EOD, D-bol kickstart 40mgs for 4-6 weeks, Deca at 600 mgs a week, D-bol finish (on a 3 month cycle) for 4 weeks, I run proviron and nolva throughout, use HCG at 1 month and 2 month and at pct. PCT with nolva, clomid, HCG. I run GH 10 IU's daily year round.


Is HCG necessary on your down time(cruising at 250mg/wk of Test)? Or do you just pick it back up when you up the dosages. Thx.

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> Is HCG necessary on your down time(cruising at 250mg/wk of Test)? Or do you just pick it back up when you up the dosages. Thx.


Good question. When I really hardcore competing in the 90's I was on alot. My endo had advised at the time to do HCG @2000 IU's 3x 4 days apart every 6 weeks. I never really cruised to be honest. I was on or I was off. Mind you I've had massive long cycles followed by 4 weeks off and a thumbs up blood test and I was right back on. Worked for me.

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## IBdmfkr

So you prefer 2000IU's 3x 4days apart over 500IU's E4D? Interesting. Any literature on this? thx.

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## zircon

I've done 4 x 2 weekers with various compounds, mostly prop and tren . Because I was a beginner I gained a lot from small doses...125mg prop and tren 50mg eod. Ridiculous I know...but I'm 15 lbs up now, only after 8 weeeks total cycling. I followed 2 on 4 off with a 10 day pct.

The only thing that ****ed me up was the acne. Might've been the tren, who knows. I'm not doing it again lol.

Next up is a 9 weeker prop 150mg eod...keep it simple. But the 2 weekers worked REALLY well...nto that much strength as a long cycle would produce I expect, but very gradual keepable gains. If you dont get acne, this imo is the way to go for recreational bb.

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## Pinnacle

> Mind you I've had massive long cycles followed by 4 weeks off and a thumbs up blood test and I was right back on.


I'm sure everyone here would love to see an example cycle of what you ran.I know I would!!!

So if you wouldn't mind,could you post one?..THX

And did you switch up drugs totally cycle to cycle?Please elaborate as I find information like this intriguing.


~Pinnacle~

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## IBdmfkr

> So you prefer 2000IU's 3x 4days apart over 500IU's E4D? Interesting. Any literature on this? thx.


Here's a good article.
http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...=33&pageID=404

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## marcus300

> Feel like an idiot, and I'm now writing down my cycle history and What gains I can remember. Glad you posted that, never even thought to do this. Great post marcus. See when you're not being a flaming homosexual, you can have some great posts!


first am not a homosexual
second didnt know you cared so much :Wink/Grin:  
looking back over my cycle history between heavy long cycles and short heavy cycles there seems to be a pattern, when i am on a long heavy cycle mixing different compounds i more or less gain alot of mass now when i come off and start pct and have a good time off (like we all should but alot dont) over the next 20 weeks i will drop some lbs usualy about half ive gained, even with all the different pct methords and all the supplements to aid the gains, more or less this happens, now am talking about the peak you are within the cycle and if you follow time on time off,at the end of time off the weight you are then,which without doubt this is the water weight you lose, must admit i love the feeling of being pumped and full with the heavy long cycles, BUT on the other side when ive done short cycles either with high dosages or low i still gain quality muscle but the difference is that after ive done time on time off process the weight stays the same,i dont lose anything,the body seems to get back to normal far easier with this methord, fair enough i dont gain the same amount of mass but your more or less the same pound for pound you have built weather you doing a long or short cycle, the end result is the same,
now you can obtain different results in either of these cycles with knowing which compounds to add or stop within the cycles that comes with knowing how your body will react to different anabolic /androgenic compounds and experience of past cycles,
i think the best advice would be is keep a diary of all the cycles you do, watch how you react with upping the mg of the main test,watch what happens when you stay the same mg and log all the results,switch compounds in both methrods do short cycles and long, then you will now more or less get an idea how you can obtain the results you are after, one more for me is you never stop learning how your body reacts when you start getting older,its a constant learning process, also diet is a major part of either way you cycle!
there is no alternative to experience when playing with chemicals and your body.. :Wink/Grin:

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> So you prefer 2000IU's 3x 4days apart over 500IU's E4D? Interesting. Any literature on this? thx.


Let me first note that I am very well aware of many different theories regarding HCG applications. Having said that, I am old school, I do what works via trial and error experience and more importantly what my endo tells me regarding blood work up. If it didnt' work, then I'd try another angle. Literature on it, I'm sure the old steroid bible had this approach and I'll post a c and p from steroid.com as well. The key is doing what works for you. I have even asked my endo in the past, "should I go to the newer 500 IU approach" and I got a reply that was typically old school as well..."if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Here is the c and p...........ohyeah, my endo had many, many bodybuilders including one MR. O. So it's not like I was his guinea pig. 


HCG, is not an anabolic /an-drogenic steroid but a natural protein hormone which develops in the placenta of a pregnant woman. HCG is manufac-tured from the urine of pregnant women since it is excreted in un-changed form from the blood via the woman's urine, passing through the kidneys. The commercially available HCG is sold as a dry substance and can be used both in men and women. in women injectable HCG allows for ovulation since it influences the last stages of the development of the ovum, thus stimulating ovulation. In a man HCG stimulates pro-duction of androgenic hormones (testosterone ). For this reason athletes use injectable HCG to increase the testosterone produc-tion. HCG is often used in combination with anabolic/androgenic steroids during or after treatment. Since the body usually needs a certain amount of time to get its testoster-one production going again, the athlete, after discontinuing ste-roid compounds, experiences a difficult transition phase which often goes hand in hand with a considerable loss in both strength and muscle mass. Administering HCG directly after steroid treat-ment helps to reduce this condition because HCG increases the testosterone production in the testes very quickly and reliably. In the event of testicular atrophy caused by mega doses and very long periods of usage, HCG also helps to quickly bring the testes back to their original condition (size). Since occasional injections of HCG during steroid intake can avoid a testicular atrophy, many athletes use HCG for two to three weeks in the middle of their steroid treatment. It is often observed that during this time the athlete makes his best progress with respect to gains in both strength and muscle mass. Those who are on the juice all year round, who might suffer psychological consequences or who would perhaps risk the breakup of a relationship because of this should consider this drawback when taking HCG in regular in-tervals. A reduced libido and spermatogenesis due to steroids, in most cases, can be successfully cured by treatment with HCG. 

Most athletes, however, use HCG at the end of a treatment in order to avoid a "crash," that is, to achieve the best possible transition into "natural training." A precondition, however, is that the steroid intake or dosage be reduced slowly and evenly before taking HCG. Although HCG causes a quick and significant increase of the endogenic plasma- testosterone level, unfortunately it is not a perfect remedy to prevent the loss of strength and mass at the end of a steroid treatment. Although HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, it does not help in re-estab-lishing the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still in a refractory state after prolonged steroid usage, and remain this way while HCG is being used, because the endogenous testosterone produced as a-result of the exogenous HCG represses the endogenous LH production. Once the HCG is discontinued, the athlete must still go through a re-adjustment period. This is merely delayed by the HCG use." For this reason experienced athletes often take Clomid and Clenbuterol following HCG intake or they immediately begin an-other steroid treatment. Some take HCG merely to get off the "steroids" for at least two to three weeks. 

HCG package insert states clearly that HCG "has no known effect of fat mobilization, appetite or sense of hunger, or body fat distribution." It further states, "HCG has not been demonstrated to be effective adjunctive therapy in the treatment of obesity, it does not increase fat losses beyond that resulting from caloric restriction. 6000 I.U. of HCG in a single injection resulted in elevated testosterone levels for six days after the injection. At a dosage of 1500 I.U. the pharmatestosterone level increases by 250-300% (2.5-3fold) com-pared to the initial value. The athlete should inject one HCG ampule every 5 days. Since the testosterone level remains considerably elevated for several days, it is unnecessary to inject HCG more than once every 5 days. The effective dosage for ath-letes is usually 2000-5000 I.U. per injection and should-as al-ready mentioned-be injected every 5 days. HCG should only be taken for a few weeks. If HCG is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later HCG intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function. 

HCG can in part cause side effects similar to those of injectable testosterone. A higher testosterone production also goes hand in hand with an elevated estrogen level which could result in gynecomastia . This could manifest itself in a temporary growth of breasts or reinforce already existing breast growth in men. Farsighted athletes thus combine HCG with an antiestrogen. Male athletes also report more frequent erections and an increased sexual desire. In high doses it can cause acne vulgaris and the storing of minerals and water. The last point must especially be observed since the water retention which is possible through the use of HCG could give the muscle system a puffy and watery appear-ance. Athletes who have already increased their endogenous test-osterone level by taking Clomid and intend subsequently to take HCG could experience considerable water retention and distinct feminization symptoms (gynecomastia, tendency toward fat de-posits on the hips). This is due to the fact that high testosterone leads to a high conversion rate to estrogens. In very young ath-letes HCG, like anabolic steroids , can cause an early stunting of growth since it prematurely closes the epiphysial growth plates. Mood swings and high blood pressure can also be attributed to the intake of HCG. 

HCG's form of administration is also unusual. The substance choriongonadotropin is a white powdery freeze-dried substance which is usually used as a compress. Each package, for each HCG ampule, includes another ampule with an injection solution containing isotonic sodium chloride. This liq-uid, after both ampules have been opened in a sterile manner, is injected into the HCG ampule and mixed with the dried substance. The solution is then ready for use and should be injected intra-muscularly. If only part of the substance is injected the residual solution should be stored in the refrigerator. It is not necessary to store the unmixed HCG in the refrigerator; however, it should be kept out of light and below a temperature of 25* C.

----------


## IBdmfkr

> first am not a homosexual


Not to trash your thread Pinn. but I have sources to back my claims.  :LOL: 

Page 3 says it all. Don't be ashamed marcus.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=198205

Btw, great stuff NYMike and thanks for the insight Marcus, it's good to hear from you guys that have tried so many different approaches. Nice thread.

----------


## marcus300

> Not to trash your thread Pinn. but I have sources to back my claims. 
> 
> Page 3 says it all. Don't be ashamed marcus.
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=198205
> 
> Btw, great stuff NYMike and thanks for the insight Marcus, it's good to hear from you guys that have tried so many different approaches. Nice thread.


hahahahaha good one,
the whole thread was a joke, i take it you didnt get the PM? it was started because there wasnt anything usefull being posted, and i was trying to get people going with some daft discussion, its the english sense of humour..
its was all a joke,

now this thread is the best ive ever seen, more people need to tell us all their experiences, lets keep this going and people will learn alot from this

----------


## goose

So Pinnacle; could you give an example of a 6 week cycle to bulk,using your
Principles and how will you incorporate DHT derived anabolic ? Is your idea running a small dose,for example winny at 25mgs for the whole cycle.

goose4...........

----------


## Pinnacle

> So Pinnacle; could you give an example of a 6 week cycle to bulk,using your
> Principles and how will you incorporate DHT derived anabolic ? Is your idea running a small dose,for example winny at 25mgs for the whole cycle.
> 
> goose4...........


Heres a few I've been thinking about recently.

1) Week 1-6 Test suspension/Tren Suspension/20 mgs Winny/Aromasin /Slin

2)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Masteron (400mgs)/Aromasin/Slin

3)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Halo(40 mgs)/Aromasin/Slin

4)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/20 mg winny/Aromasin/Slin

5)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Drol(200 mgs)/Tren Suspension/Aromasin/Slin

I can easily add esterless EQ,or Deca into cycles as well.

Also,LR3 IGF-1 most certainly is an option.


Just some idle thoughts....


~Pinnacle~

----------


## goalseeker

again.....Awesome thread.....

----------


## NYC BIG MIKE

> I'm sure everyone here would love to see an example cycle of what you ran.I know I would!!!
> 
> So if you wouldn't mind,could you post one?..THX
> 
> And did you switch up drugs totally cycle to cycle?Please elaborate as I find information like this intriguing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~Pinnacle~





Pinn, 
This is a cycle I did before a really big show in 1995, it was a 26 week cycle:


Dianabol 40 mgs Week 1-4/18-22
Sustanon 250 - 2 Gram week / Wk 1-22
Deca - 800 mg week / Wk 1-20
EQ 800 mg week / Wk 1-26
Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22 
HGH 8 iu Day / Wk 1-26
T-3 80 mcg day / Week 22-26
IGF1 - 40 mcg day / Week 18-26
Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22
Masteron 300 mg Week/wk 18-26
Prop 100 mg day / Wk 22-26
Winny 50 mg day / Wk 22-26
DNP 250 day / Weeks 25-26
HCG As needed throughout the cycle 
Nolva 20 mgs a day/Weeks 1-26
Proviron 50 mgs a day/weeks 1-26

PCT 
HCG, Clomid, Nolva

----------


## marcus300

> Pinn, 
> This is a cycle I did before a really big show in 1995, it was a 26 week cycle:
> 
> 
> Dianabol 40 mgs Week 1-4/18-22
> Sustanon 250 - 2 Gram week / Wk 1-22
> Deca - 800 mg week / Wk 1-20
> EQ 800 mg week / Wk 1-26
> Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22 
> ...


NYC MIKE. what were your results from this course? thanx

----------


## SPIKE

[QUOTE=goose4]


> What a fantastic thread,a rare treat on this board.



Amen

----------


## NYC BIG MIKE

> NYC MIKE. what were your results from this course? thanx


I did really well in my show. I was 232 (started 268) rock hard on stage but let me tell you, I was totally ok having dealt with all the demons of carb depletion and excessive androgens and what not, but what totally KICKED MY ASS and I will never, ever do again was the damn DNP .

----------


## Juicy Sauce

Very good thread!
just like to add.. it seems like most of the gains in a cycle are in the first 6 weeks. but when i start a cycle i dont want to stop that soon. long cycles help the body retain gains but they are harder to recover from. from my exp, mid-length cycles of 10-12 are very good. gain some good beef and still bounce back pretty quick.

but i agree that *changing up cycle length, compounds used, workouts and even diet is the only way to keep the body guessing and progressing!*
JS

----------


## marcus300

Pinn/nyc big mike,

Have any of you used testosterone undecanote on a short cycle??
ive had unbelieveable gains with this test, everytime ive used it ive had results, its a good addition to any short cycle, what are you thoughts and experiences with this drug?

----------


## goalseeker

> Pinn, 
> This is a cycle I did before a really big show in 1995, it was a 26 week cycle:
> 
> 
> Dianabol 40 mgs Week 1-4/18-22
> Sustanon 250 - 2 Gram week / Wk 1-22
> Deca - 800 mg week / Wk 1-20
> EQ 800 mg week / Wk 1-26
> Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22 
> ...


holy macaroni....

----------


## BajanBastard

> Pinn/nyc big mike,
> 
> Have any of you used testosterone undecanote on a short cycle??
> ive had unbelieveable gains with this test, everytime ive used it ive had results, its a good addition to any short cycle, what are you thoughts and experiences with this drug?


Oral or injected? I don't understand why undecanote would be better than say enanthate .

----------


## tough old man

> Pinn, 
> This is a cycle I did before a really big show in 1995, it was a 26 week cycle:
> 
> 
> Dianabol 40 mgs Week 1-4/18-22
> Sustanon 250 - 2 Gram week / Wk 1-22
> Deca - 800 mg week / Wk 1-20
> EQ 800 mg week / Wk 1-26
> Tren Acetate 800 mg Week / Wk 1-22 
> ...


Jesus Mike that looks almost identical to a good buddy of mine. He's one big MoFo also.

----------


## Gassy

I'm 30 and have been useing for 8 years. I used to be reckless in my aas use. Due to age and to learning by getting online, I think I've gotten smarter. I believe in a longer lower dose cycle with slow esters for slower gains. I no longer use orals not just because of the liver issue, but because I think that gaining a lot of weight fast is hard on the body. I've found that if I keep my test dose at 500mg/wk then I don't bloat much and therefore don't have to use an anti-E which IMO are also hard on the body. I have also found that synergy or combineing several drugs at a lower dose works well for me in terms of gains and less side effects. This is a great thread and I'm glad that people aren't telling people that their way is the wrong way, as we are all different(goals and body chemistry). My next cycle:

test e 500mg/wk 1-22
tren e 250mg/wk 1-20
eq 300mg/wk 1-20
deca 300mg/wk 1-20
PCT clom and nolv

----------


## Pinnacle

> Pinn/nyc big mike,
> 
> Have any of you used testosterone undecanote on a short cycle??
> ive had unbelieveable gains with this test, everytime ive used it ive had results, its a good addition to any short cycle, what are you thoughts and experiences with this drug?


No I haven't used it.Not all that common here in the states.

Are you using it as a suppliment to another Test you're running in a cycle?

I know you have to take boat loads of it,and it's a tad pricy as well.

Curious to hear your input on this.

~Pinnacle~

----------


## IBdmfkr

> hahahahaha good one,
> the whole thread was a joke, i take it you didnt get the PM? it was started because there wasnt anything usefull being posted, and i was trying to get people going with some daft discussion, its the english sense of humour..
> its was all a joke,
> 
> now this thread is the best ive ever seen, more people need to tell us all their experiences, lets keep this going and people will learn alot from this


It's all good, I was only kidding. All in good fun amigo.

Also agree, we NEED more threads of this nature!

----------


## goose

> Oral or injected? I don't understand why undecanote would be better than say enanthate.



It is known that overall;when considering all the factors,that enanthate is the best test,however,undecanote has it`s special place,that no other test can do.I hear horror stories how expensive this test is due to only one company manufacturing it.Costs around 80$ in the USA.In Greece it only costs 11 euros!!! In the Midle East it costs around 22$,these are prices per 60 caps bottle.So really it`s quite cheap if you have the right Connections.This is true American Capitalism,shows you how much profit is made with AAS,don`t forget the American economy is 75% consumer based.Even though it`s a mild drug,it`s still has the even ratio of 50% anabolic and 50% androgenic response,at the end of the day it`s a test,just like any other.I know athletes (not BB) who run this.If you run this drug,you only have one idea in mind.What could that be?
It`s very mild on your HPTA,even at excessive doses.Remember test is your base anabolic in any cycle.So you can run a cycle of Andriol ,and carefully select other anabolics that are mild on the pituitary and testes,so you wont get shut down completely,so recovery is super fast which is why you will keep most of your gains.It even improve`s blood pressure,and is not liver toxic!!!
It does has it`s place,if you know how to use it correctly.estrogenic sides
are almost non existent with very little water,makes pop look a joke in this sence.The problem is you have to run it 15-20 caps a day to see it`s full potential,that`s why people don`t understand how great this mild test is.

goose4................

----------


## musclestack

I don't know if I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but can someone please tell me what "SHBG" stands for? I'd like to thoroughly research it. Thanks

----------


## NYC BIG MIKE

> I don't know if I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but can someone please tell me what "SHBG" stands for? I'd like to thoroughly research it. Thanks




sex hormone binding globulin

----------


## goose

> I did really well in my show. I was 232 (started 268) rock hard on stage but let me tell you, I was totally ok having dealt with all the demons of carb depletion and excessive androgens and what not, but what totally KICKED MY ASS and I will never, ever do again was the damn DNP.


Mike;why will you never use DNP again? I have had mixed feedback with DNP.

Now :results wise,top grades,thats not the issue I have.

A guy told me this: clen is more Dangerous than DNP.
`clen has a load of sides, including but not limited too, muscle cramps, tremor, dehydration, heart failure (rare but can happen). DNP only has one in males that i know of, dehydration. Unless you overdose on DNP, and drink plenty of water, its relatively safe. More people have died on ephedra then on DNP`

He said DNP done correctly is safe,I would love to try DNP,as my BF% is my weak point.Any help would be great.

goose4........................

----------


## Pinnacle

> i asked a question and was told to start a thread????


Thank you for shitting on a good thread!!Now I have to ask a MOD to clean all your crap up.


STAY OUT OF THIS THREAD!!!!! :Frown:   :Frown:   :Frown:  


DO NOT RESPOND BACK!! :Frown:   :Frown:  

~Pinnacle~

----------


## goose

This is why this is a poor forum,I think it`s time for me to move.You get a newbie making a post on this complex thread,how many vets? Mods?? That have posted here?? A joke

goose4............

----------


## goalseeker

> This is why this is a poor forum,
> goose4............


Hmmm....I dont agree with that AT ALL..... :No No:

----------


## NYC BIG MIKE

> Mike;why will you never use DNP again? I have had mixed feedback with DNP.
> 
> Now :results wise,top grades,thats not the issue I have.
> 
> A guy told me this: clen is more Dangerous than DNP.
> `clen has a load of sides, including but not limited too, muscle cramps, tremor, dehydration, heart failure (rare but can happen). DNP only has one in males that i know of, dehydration. Unless you overdose on DNP, and drink plenty of water, its relatively safe. More people have died on ephedra then on DNP`
> 
> He said DNP done correctly is safe,I would love to try DNP,as my BF% is my weak point.Any help would be great.
> 
> goose4........................



DNP alters ATP synthesis. I thought I hit it just right, as I was helped by a former Mr Olympia who had it down to perfection, but I have to be honest with you, I just out and out felt like shit. No energy, nothing. I was angry, tired, confused all in one. But that was just me. I know others that don't even run Insulin with it (necessary for glycolisis) and they have less sides than I did. But I will say this, ain't a damn thing on the planet that burns fat like DNP.

----------


## goose

> DNP alters ATP synthesis. I thought I hit it just right, as I was helped by a former Mr Olympia who had it down to perfection, but I have to be honest with you, I just out and out felt like shit. No energy, nothing. I was angry, tired, confused all in one. But that was just me. I know others that don't even run Insulin with it (necessary for glycolisis) and they have less sides than I did. But I will say this, ain't a damn thing on the planet that burns fat like DNP.



Thanks mike,so it`s like hell for 2 weeks,lol.When you ran it,did you check your BF% before and after?
If you run it with slin,what are the additional dangers?  :Wink/Grin:  
I hope that former MR was not that brit,lol.
goose4...........

----------


## NYC BIG MIKE

> Thanks mike,so it`s like hell for 2 weeks,lol.When you ran it,did you check your BF% before and after?
> If you run it with slin,what are the additional dangers?  
> I hope that former MR was not that brit,lol.
> goose4...........



Using Lange calipers I was 11% bf @ 268lbs 26 weeks out and 6% bf @ 235 lbs 2 days prior to showtime. Running insulin with DNP is actually smart. Since DNP inhibits ATP synthesis, glycolosis is inhibited as well, causing a diabetic effect due to the conversion of glucose without insulin, so it's not terribly uncommon for people to take insulin with DNP. This will counter act the symptoms of lethargy and lack of energy due to DNP's use.

----------


## BajanBastard

> Mike;why will you never use DNP again? I have had mixed feedback with DNP.
> 
> Now :results wise,top grades,thats not the issue I have.
> 
> A guy told me this: clen is more Dangerous than DNP.
> `clen has a load of sides, including but not limited too, muscle cramps, tremor, dehydration, heart failure (rare but can happen). DNP only has one in males that i know of, dehydration. Unless you overdose on DNP, and drink plenty of water, its relatively safe. More people have died on ephedra then on DNP`
> 
> He said DNP done correctly is safe,I would love to try DNP,as my BF% is my weak point.Any help would be great.
> 
> goose4........................


I HATE clen. I add to it's impressive list of side effects, it reduces the volume of blood plasma which will **** up your endurance.

I used DNP (ummm thanks Meso :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  ) 200, 200, 400, 200,200 just to test it out. Besides feeling like shit on the last 2 days and for about 1 day and a half afterward. It was smooth and i live in the hot ass Caribbean.

----------


## 1morerep

recommend post as sticky for future reference?

----------


## goalseeker

> recommend post as sticky for future reference?


absolutely bro!!

----------


## IBdmfkr

What are some of the drug combos, dosages and durations run with the most success? 

If you were to run a 12week bulk with Test would it be more beneficial to change compounds and run cycle for another 8 weeks or recover before switching compounds?

These are just a couple of questions it would be interesting to hear some of you guys results, opinions.

BD

----------


## *Narkissos*

> This is why this is a poor forum,I think it`s time for me to move.You get a newbie making a post on this complex thread,*how many vets? Mods?? That have posted here?? A joke*
> 
> goose4............


1. Obviously you've only been reading your own posts...as mine is on page 1.
2. Obviously you believe that this, a great thread undoubtedly, is the only thread on a forum of this size.

That being said.

3. Obviously Moderators first job must not Moderating. Gadzooks..whatever were we thinking?

 :Don't know:  




> My cycle hypothesis?
> 
> Here's the link: 
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=201798
> 
> It's rough...and new info has surfaced since i wrote it. I'll address it and perfect it during the coming year.
> 
> Then i'll put it into practice to determine its practicability.


 :Hmmmm:

----------


## goose

Sorry nark,I did not mean you.Your a top guy.

goose4..........

----------


## BajanBastard

That's because you're a "brotellegent" MOD Nark. Lmfao!!

----------


## IBdmfkr

Just because someone has the title Mod, or VET doesn't make then any more knowledgable or experienced than anybody else. We have had great feedback from a few members so far, hope to see more participate. Still wondering where Johnny, Rodge, SC, etc etc... along with others who have not yet posted?

----------


## *Narkissos*

> Just because someone has the title Mod, or VET doesn't make then any more knowledgable or experienced than anybody else. We have had great feedback from a few members so far, hope to see more participate. Still wondering where Johnny, Rodge, SC, etc etc... along with others who have not yet posted?


You've got Big K.l.g. here... He's top notch.

He's also a conceited bastard... i should know..he's my training partner.

Really guys, Moderating a board this huge takes up the majority of our time. We try to help where we can but not as regularly as we'd like to.

~Nark

----------


## goose

This is one of the best threads I have seen.Did I say a mod or a vet is more knowledgable? mod`s and vet spend a decent amount of time on this forum,I just expected more of a responce from them,I`m sure they get bored with the same questions everyday.You get a fresh thread that you can learn from......but no input.....seems some love the same newbie questions all the time.This forum was in dire need of extreme intellectual discussion.
IBdmfkr-you would make a good mod.

goose4............

----------


## SPIKE

> What are some of the drug combos, dosages and durations run with the most success? 
> 
> If you were to run a 12week bulk with Test would it be more beneficial to change compounds and run cycle for another 8 weeks or recover before switching compounds?
> 
> These are just a couple of questions it would be interesting to hear some of you guys results, opinions.
> 
> BD




Well since we're the same age BD I think we can relate in some ways.

With my experience my gains seem to dwindle down after about that 12 week mark when using test as a base. In the past I have told myself that was a sign to come off. Lately I have tried something different. I'll introduce a DHT derivitive for the last 4-8 weeks and gains seem to spike right back up. I gave an example and explanation of this in my first post on this thread which was number 9. Sorry if its repetitive but some have a tendency to read that last couple of posts before maknig the decision of chiming in or taking the time to read through 107 posts. Sometimes it's easier to go to the "Sust EOD or E3D" titled thread and post a comment.

This is definitely a very informative thread. Thanks for starting it Pinn

----------


## *Narkissos*

Keep it on topic guys

----------


## IBdmfkr

> Well since we're the same age BD I think we can relate in some ways.
> 
> With my experience my gains seem to dwindle down after about that 12 week mark when using test as a base. In the past I have told myself that was a sign to come off. Lately I have tried something different. * I'll introduce a DHT derivitive for the last 4-8 weeks and gains seem to spike right back up*. I gave an example and explanation of this in my first post on this thread which was number 9. Sorry if its repetitive but some have a tendency to read that last couple of posts before maknig the decision of chiming in or taking the time to read through 107 posts. Sometimes it's easier to go to the "Sust EOD or E3D" titled thread and post a comment.
> 
> This is definitely a very informative thread. Thanks for starting it Pinn


This is something I have done in the past and had great results with also. Seems to hit the receptors differently and keep gains from hindering. I also noticed at week 10-12 there was not much more progression.

----------


## marcus300

> No I haven't used it.Not all that common here in the states.
> 
> Are you using it as a suppliment to another Test you're running in a cycle?
> 
> I know you have to take boat loads of it,and it's a tad pricy as well.
> 
> Curious to hear your input on this.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


I know its not all that common in the states because of availability and price but its well worth trying to source some, ive used this drug everyway possible and its a excellent addition to any good cycle, it is an oral 40mg capsule it promotes rapid strenght and weight gains like most of the testosterone family, it also as the ability to store glycogen and ATP,which makes it ideal to take to a run up of a show to help carbing up, it causes nil to minimal damage to the liver even tho its an oral it is not C-17 alpha alkylated and this is why it remains active in the body for shorter duration, it doesnt cause gyno and does not inhibit testicular function so long the dosage is around 320mg ED, its absorbed through the small intestine into the lymphatic system and is converted into DHT which is 1.5 times as anabolic as regular test,to really get the full benifit of this test it should be taken throughout the day and night, i know abit of a pain but the results on the body are well worth it,no side effects except you get horny as hell(well in my case you do)
In England doctors use this drug for HRT,and alot of my friends who have taken heavy cycles over the years and who are 35-40yrs old who need HRT because it just that time(afew of you know what am talking about) are given by their doctors restandol, and they are producing further outstanding gains, infact they say its a wonder drug,
ive used it with heavy long cycles and short heavy cycles and bridging and even as the main test, i cant knock it in anyway and when you put it together with drugs what respond with your body the results are outstanding and the gains you keep, am sure the people on this board would back me up( i know goose loves the stuff) if they have used it correctly..
i do have some studys of HRT and restandol if anyone is intrested i will post them...
lets keep this thread up at the top,  :Wink/Grin:

----------


## marcus300

> It is known that overall;when considering all the factors,that enanthate is the best test,however,undecanote has it`s special place,that no other test can do.I hear horror stories how expensive this test is due to only one company manufacturing it.Costs around 80$ in the USA.In Greece it only costs 11 euros!!! In the Midle East it costs around 22$,these are prices per 60 caps bottle.So really it`s quite cheap if you have the right Connections.This is true American Capitalism,shows you how much profit is made with AAS,don`t forget the American economy is 75% consumer based.Even though it`s a mild drug,it`s still has the even ratio of 50% anabolic and 50% androgenic response,at the end of the day it`s a test,just like any other.I know athletes (not BB) who run this.If you run this drug,you only have one idea in mind.What could that be?
> It`s very mild on your HPTA,even at excessive doses.Remember test is your base anabolic in any cycle.So you can run a cycle of Andriol ,and carefully select other anabolics that are mild on the pituitary and testes,so you wont get shut down completely,so recovery is super fast which is why you will keep most of your gains.It even improve`s blood pressure,and is not liver toxic!!!
> It does has it`s place,if you know how to use it correctly.estrogenic sides
> are almost non existent with very little water,makes pop look a joke in this sence.The problem is you have to run it 15-20 caps a day to see it`s full potential,that`s why people don`t understand how great this mild test is.
> 
> goose4................


good post goose and i agree except with your dosages of 15-20 caps a day,i have tried it and each to their own,,,,good post :Wink/Grin:

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## topvega

Bump....

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## marcus300

bump....

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## NYC BIG MIKE

Funny thing is , this very topic was in my mind as I was working out last night in the gym with one of my favorite training partners. Thought I'd bring up a perspective that we both agreed on. Sometimes at the end of a cycle, when you have alot of drugs running simultaneously, you end up with leftovers. I never throw anything out. Here's the interesting part, some of my best cycles have been a potpouri of "leftovers" with no rhyme or reason. Just trying to clear out the shoebox I keep it in. 5 vials of this, an amp of that, so on and so forth. We used to call it a "cleaning out the medicine cabinet cycle", we did it more when we were younger and had less money so we had to be creative when it counted. Just thought I'd share that. I'll go back to my cave now.

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## Pinnacle

Mike-

I have a question for you now that you're out of your cave.

You stated earlier in the thread you'd come off cycle for around a month,and jump right back on.

Did you see decent gains when running cycles that close in succession?

I'm having problems doing this(shitty gains when ran too close together),so I'm looking for insight.


~Pinnacle~

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> Mike-
> 
> I have a question for you now that you're out of your cave.
> 
> You stated earlier in the thread you'd come off cycle for around a month,and jump right back on.
> 
> Did you see decent gains when running cycles that close in succession?
> 
> I'm having problems doing this(shitty gains when ran too close together),so I'm looking for insight.
> ...



This is where the old school mentality comes into play. I never even heard of deca dick until I came here, go figure. In the old days you'd do a classic decca cycle for like 12 weeks with a dbol kickstart and an anavar kick finish. Mind you I always ran HCG (thanks Dr. L) and ran basic pct (mostly nolva back then) and a month later do a heavy test only approach. Remember, we didn't have the breakthrough knowledge you guys have now, we believed in receptor saturation and that's the main reason we switched up so drastically, we thought we were fooling the receptors when in actuality it turns out the drug switch itself was the key.

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## Booz

must say this is a very interestin and informative read!

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## marcus300

bump

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## NYC BIG MIKE

Marcus, you found it!!!!!!!!!!!

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## marcus300

> Marcus, you found it!!!!!!!!!!!


YEH found it :7up:  
this thread should be kept right up there,
its the most intresting one ive seen in a long while, even the first timers and advance bodybuilders can learn from this, experience is the key!!

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## Pinnacle

Ok guys...I'm about to start a very high dose(160 mcgs) LR3 IGF-1 cycle.
Right now I'm cruising on low dose Test/Deca /HGH.I'm going to run the IGF cycle 30 days,and then go right into a mini Test suspension cycle(6 weeks) with another strong androgen as well.My thought/logic behind this is the IGF at this dose will create some decent hyperplasma and by following it up quickly with an anabolic cycle,this will sprurt growth to the newly created muscle cells/tissue.
With that said.Here's how I thought of running the dose protocol.

60 mcgs AM
HGH 4 iu's 2pm
100 mcgs PWO

Seem logical to you?Or would you split the dose into ample amounts 3 x during the day?

~Pinnacle~

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## NYC BIG MIKE

If it were me, I'd split the GH up too, I know guys that run GH only on workout days to save dosage and $$. So for example if you workout M/W/F do a:

60mcg IGF/4 IU GH am 
100mcg IGF/4 IU GH PWO

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## Pinnacle

> If it were me, I'd split the GH up too, I know guys that run GH only on workout days to save dosage and $$. So for example if you workout M/W/F do a:
> 
> 60mcg IGF/4 IU GH am 
> 100mcg IGF/4 IU GH PWO


I'm a believer in the 3 day split myself.

I see the point in regards to the HGH.I know guys that run it like that also.I usually run 9-10 iu's ED.I don't see the need for the higher dose when running IGF at this level.I could be wrong,and I'm very open minded,so I'll consider upping the HGH dose.

You don't think it's a good idea to run the IGF every day?Or are you suggesting an alternative to saving cash.Bear in mind,I have enough IGF to run 160 mcgs every day. :Wink/Grin:  I like the idea of cutting back on the HGH though,since it is a pricy suppliment.


~Pinnacle~

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## NYC BIG MIKE

That was a workout day dosage. I should have been more clear. On off days stay with IGF1. Yes it was to save $$ for the peeps who cant afford GH in abundance. The guys I know bring preloaded syringes right to the gym and hit it right before they take their pwo shake.

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## Pinnacle

> That was a workout day dosage. I should have been more clear. On off days stay with IGF1. Yes it was to save $$ for the peeps who cant afford GH in abundance. The guys I know bring preloaded syringes right to the gym and hit it right before they take their pwo shake.


Ok,I agree!I've ran IGF many times before(last at 120 mcgs),and it's best to run it ever day.I shoot PWO in the gym shitter myself.
I'm thinking of switching up HGH protocol though.I've been on for years straight,so I think it's time to give my pituitary a chance to recoup,if it can.So 3 days a week seems appe****g to me.

~Pinnacle~

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> Ok,I agree!I've ran IGF many times before(last at 120 mcgs),and it's best to run it ever day.I shoot PWO in the gym shitter myself.
> I'm thinking of switching up HGH protocol though.I've been on for years straight,so I think it's time to give my pituitary a chance to recoup,if it can.So 3 days a week seems appe****g to me.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


That's the whole idea, let your system recoup. I did it for 6 months last year, same weekly dosage but over a 3 day split. Took 3 IU am/ 3 IU noon/3 IU pwo pm. I didn't lose a thing, matter of fact as I get older I am now planning on reverting back to it full time. If you are on 9 IU daily, split 3x as stated, it's better working with the half life and all. We have about 10 spikes a day in GH, so a split compliments this.

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## IBdmfkr

bump, lets keep this goin. Good stuff.

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## Mesomorphyl

> Ok guys...I'm about to start a very high dose(160 mcgs) LR3 IGF-1 cycle.
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


Let us know if you get headaches with that dose. I have heard over 100mcg you start running the risk of massive headaches, so keep us in the know.

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## I_Want_Abs

bump

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## anabolicbruce

In regards to HGH, it seems that if you take supraphysiological doses ed, your serum IGF-1 will decrease. I have seen this with not only my own bloodwork, but with others as well. 

do you guys find that higher doses at fewer days/week is more effective? I want to keep my IGF around 400-500ng.

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> In regards to HGH, it seems that if you take supraphysiological doses ed, your serum IGF-1 will decrease. I have seen this with not only my own bloodwork, but with others as well. 
> 
> do you guys find that higher doses at fewer days/week is more effective? I want to keep my IGF around 400-500ng.


This is something a few friends of mine I and I tried at the gym. We are all on GH pretty much year long and wanted to give our system a break and a chance to rebound. Two guys that I normally work out with are doing it now, they are like 5 months into it and they have the same findings I had last year. Like I told Pinn, try GH usage on lifting days only (am/pm/pwo) and let your own system recoup on the other days. We theorized that we were saturating our bodies on lifting days and letting mother nature do her thing on the other days. So in retrospect, it gives your body the needed days off, is easier on the wallet and allows you to shoot heavier dosages on the days you need it. Everyone who has tried it that I know has liked it.

----------


## Pinnacle

> Let us know if you get headaches with that dose. I have heard over 100mcg you start running the risk of massive headaches, so keep us in the know.


I've already ran 120 mcgs.No headaches.I'm willing to speculate that those ppl weren't taking in sufficient amounts of carbs.

I've started my 160 mcg run today. :Wink/Grin:  

Also,I'm trying Mike's suggestion with the HGH.


~Pinnacle~

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## IBdmfkr

Wowsers!!! lol Keep us posted! BigMike, your theory sounds good, wondering if I should try it on my next go in a couple months. SO if you were going to take 6IU 5on2off, with your way would you take 8IU on workout days only, or stick with 6? Thx.

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## marcus300

As requested Paul Borresen's shock receptor blasting,

These cycles are only for the advanced bodybuilder who as reached his genetic potential and under no circumstances should this method be used unless you have trained and used gear for numerous years and your body is finding it harder to get a response to grow new muscle mass with the standard cycling.
I would also like to state that this type of cycling doesn't work for everyone, which is probably the normal when we are using chemicals in the body, there are no set rules!!
Paul's method is used at a top pro level and is and does have a place in modern bodybuilding, it has built huge men, Dorian/Dillett were big fans of this type of cycling/training.

The duration of these cycles is between 3-6 wks and there are many different methods and its worked out for the individual who knows his own body ie- knows which compounds work best for him and mixtures, a typical example of a 21 day stack would be using fast acting compounds of between 500mg-1000mg of main test per day, which is similar what some people use in a week, the body is hit hard for 3 weeks and 3 weeks off then repeat, Paul states you shock your receptors and body into growth before any bad side effects appear,

A typical 6 week cycle would be hit slightly different, you would use more longer acting compounds only 2 at a time, so for 2 wks you would use up to a 1gram a day of the main test the switch it for the next 2 wks and switch to another for the last 2 wks(which would normally be a fast acting test), there are variations to this methord and it all depends on the individual and history and experience of using chemicals when designing cycles.
This is a example of a cycle Paul designed for my individual needs-
500mg SUS ED for 10 days
500mg Primo/deca ED for 10 days
500mg Prop/winny ED for 10 days
i was also running HGH while i was on this cycle at 8ius ED
I know alot of you will be thinking deca???? but this was designed for me and at this time i was running deca at a low dose because of the training and to help my joint pain,
i ran this for 30 days and then had 5 weeks off and i repeated a similar cycle using different compounds, i kept all the gains and even produced more while i was in the off period,

Now its not just designing a cycle to make this theory work, there are many other factors to consider and implement to get the most from this blasting, example if your on a 3wk shock cycle you would increase the intensity of the training to a level what you can only physically be maintain for about 3-4 weeks, an example of this would be- warm up fully- max weight 6-8reps +forced-then drop set to failure- then dropset failure- then dropset to failure, this type of training and cycling needs to fuelled with the correct diet which means its a 24hr lifestyle, all this coupled with enough rest,will and does force your body beyond its normal range of growth, after the 3 wks your body is screaming to recover so a maintaining training program is needed and at this stage your body actually still builds muscle mass to compenstate,

The body can gain large tissue gains for short periods of time but it cant keep maintaining this for weeks on end, it is possible to gain a 1lb a day for 3 wks but it cant for weeks on end, this is nature and we can learn from it,if your advanced enough and you know how to combat the side effects this is amazing way to push yourself past any sticking point, if you have the right enviroment for the body it will have rapid fast growth can be obtained by this method,
Any thoughts or commets?

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## stupidhippo

interesting theory... but u right, too advanced for me..

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> Wowsers!!! lol Keep us posted! BigMike, your theory sounds good, wondering if I should try it on my next go in a couple months. SO if you were going to take 6IU 5on2off, with your way would you take 8IU on workout days only, or stick with 6? Thx.


6 IU's @ 5 days = 30 IU's . Using that dosage, let's say you work out M/W/F, now you have 30 IU's for those 3 days which would give you basically a 3 IU am/3 IU pm/ 3 IU pwo to play with. Or if you lift 4 days, 30 IU's over 4 days is about 7 IU's a day so on workout days do 2 IU's am/ 2 IU's pm/ 3 IU's pwo. Can you dig it?

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## anabolicbruce

It has been covered a few times before, but I am interested in staying on AAS year around. the reason being is that after a year off AAS my test levels wouldnt break 400ng. since I compete,instead of going on TRT I figured i would do somthing similiar to Pinnacles regime-bridge with 250mg test.

Any other insight to year around cycling and long-term effects?

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## Pinnacle

[quote=marcus300]any thoughts?
[quote]

Like I stated above,I just started an IGF cycle.Now how much hyperplasma will occur at that dose?I have no idea,but I'm certain it will be minimal.
BUT,what I'm going to do is running a very high dose(2.5g')suspension cycle as sooon as this cycle is complete.My thought is that the anabolics will grow the new cells created by whatever amount of hyperplasma that will occur during the IGF cycle.
I like Pauls theory on the mini burst type cycle.I just don't agree with the long ester drugs he suggests in his approach.My thinking is that it would be much better to use esterless gear for the quick,high dose cycle.I might be off on his logic?

~Pinnacle~

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## marcus300

[QUOTE=Pinnacle][quote=marcus300]any thoughts?



> I like Pauls theory on the mini burst type cycle.I just don't agree with the long ester drugs he suggests in his approach.My thinking is that it would be much better to use esterless gear for the quick,high dose cycle.I might be off on his logic?
> 
> ~Pinnacle~


ive tried both theorys infact a few more aswell, i did get huge gains on the fast acting cycles instead of the longer acting ones, but both are very impressive

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## MASTER

> As requested Paul Borresen's shock receptor blasting,
> 
> These cycles are only for the advanced bodybuilder who as reached his genetic potential and under no circumstances should this method be used unless you have trained and used gear for numerous years and your body is finding it harder to get a response to grow new muscle mass with the standard cycling.
> I would also like to state that this type of cycling doesn't work for everyone, which is probably the normal when we are using chemicals in the body, there are no set rules!!
> Paul's method is used at a top pro level and is and does have a place in modern bodybuilding, it has built huge men, Dorian/Dillett were big fans of this type of cycling/training.
> 
> The duration of these cycles is between 3-6 wks and there are many different methods and its worked out for the individual who knows his own body ie- knows which compounds work best for him and mixtures, a typical example of a 21 day stack would be using fast acting compounds of between 500mg-1000mg of main test per day, which is similar what some people use in a week, the body is hit hard for 3 weeks and 3 weeks off then repeat, Paul states you shock your receptors and body into growth before any bad side effects appear,
> 
> A typical 6 week cycle would be hit slightly different, you would use more longer acting compounds only 2 at a time, so for 2 wks you would use up to a 1gram a day of the main test the switch it for the next 2 wks and switch to another for the last 2 wks(which would normally be a fast acting test), there are variations to this methord and it all depends on the individual and history and experience of using chemicals when designing cycles.
> ...


A friend of mine swears by a similar method of cycling to this, he only uses short or non estered injectables for it. He will do a high dose of suspension or prop (3g+) for three weeks then take 5 weeks off and repeats. He only does two of these cycle in a row, then hell go on a standard 24 weeker.

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## *Narkissos*

bump!

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## marcus300

> A friend of mine swears by a similar method of cycling to this, he only uses short or non estered injectables for it. He will do a high dose of suspension or prop (3g+) for three weeks then take 5 weeks off and repeats. He only does two of these cycle in a row, then hell go on a standard 24 weeker.


JamesC,
how does your friend respond to this type of cycling? how long has he been training and using gear?

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## MASTER

> JamesC,
> how does your friend respond to this type of cycling? how long has he been training and using gear?


Well he uses more sensible dosages for the long cycles, so he claims he gets better results off those 6 weeks than he does of the 24 weeks, but he also eats and trains like a madman during those 6 weeks. He has been using gear for at least 10 years, so he does know a fair bit about what works and what doesnt.

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## marcus300

> Well he uses more sensible dosages for the long cycles, so he claims he gets better results off those 6 weeks than he does of the 24 weeks, but he also eats and trains like a madman during those 6 weeks. He has been using gear for at least 10 years, so he does know a fair bit about what works and what doesnt.


exactly JamesC, thats what ive experienced,you cant constantly build muscle mass otherwise we would all be 500lbs + no matter what compounds you use, our body reacts to anything you put inside it, every action there is a reaction, but you can gain large muscle gains in short periods of time before your body takes on a reaction, it is like in nature a teenager or a baby only grows for short periods of time then levels out, we have growth spuirts, babys grow at a fast rate for 3 weeks at a time then levels of for a couple of weeks then repeats its self, it doubles it full wieght every 6-8 months, we should learn from this, ive experiemented everyway with this theory and i have build more muscle tissue and maintained the gains without causing to much surpression to my body on the short high dosages

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## MASTER

> exactly JamesC, thats what ive experienced,you cant constantly build muscle mass otherwise we would all be 500lbs + no matter what compounds you use, our body reacts to anything you put inside it, every action there is a reaction, but you can gain large muscle gains in short periods of time before your body takes on a reaction, it is like in nature a teenager or a baby only grows for short periods of time then levels out, we have growth spuirts, babys grow at a fast rate for 3 weeks at a time then levels of for a couple of weeks then repeats its self, it doubles it full wieght every 6-8 months, we should learn from this, ive experiemented everyway with this theory and i have build more muscle tissue and maintained the gains without causing to much surpression to my body on the short high dosages


U sure u aint the guy im talking about? J/k. Yeh he thinks pretty much the same way u do,from what ive seen it does the trick for him. I have always found that for me I get the most out of doing a cycle like the one I posted earlier in the thread. I have always seemed to get results for 10 or 12 weeks, but then gains just stop completely, but by running a bridge and high doses of hcg for 6 weeks in the middle, I am able to recover enough to gain again off another cycle run with different compounds and aims at the end of the 6 week bridge.

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## marcus300

> U sure u aint the guy im talking about? J/k. Yeh he thinks pretty much the same way u do,from what ive seen it does the trick for him. I have always found that for me I get the most out of doing a cycle like the one I posted earlier in the thread. I have always seemed to get results for 10 or 12 weeks, but then gains just stop completely, but by running a bridge and high doses of hcg for 6 weeks in the middle, I am able to recover enough to gain again off another cycle run with different compounds and aims at the end of the 6 week bridge.


Yeh i use to aswell but as i got older and had more and more cycles under my belt i found that my body just didnt respond like it use to, no matter what i did,, but with the short heavy intense cycles what Paul advice's to do gave me new growth and excellent gains in muscle mass,,
thanks for your imput :Wink/Grin:

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## MASTER

> Yeh i use to aswell but as i got older and had more and more cycles under my belt i found that my body just didnt respond like it use to, no matter what i did,, but with the short heavy intense cycles what Paul advice's to do gave me new growth and excellent gains in muscle mass,,
> thanks for your imput


Yeh thanks for urs as well, If I ever decide to go back on the darkside I think thatll be the way I go.

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## NYC BIG MIKE

> Well he uses more sensible dosages for the long cycles, so he claims he gets better results off those 6 weeks than he does of the 24 weeks, but he also eats and trains like a madman during those 6 weeks. He has been using gear for at least 10 years, so he does know a fair bit about what works and what doesnt.



James, elaborate on your HCG approach mid-cycle if you don't mind. Thanks.

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## marcus300

bump

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## MASTER

> James, elaborate on your HCG approach mid-cycle if you don't mind. Thanks.


He he i thought someone would ask about that. It was as simple as this : my testicles had atrophied towards the end of the first part of the cycle, and since primo seems to have minimal effects on my hpta, I decided to increase the dosage of hcg I was using during the bridging period, I also increased the frequency of dosing to 4 times a week. By the end of the bridging period, my testicles were pretty much normal and I was ready to start the second half of my cycle. Primo is the steroid that seems to have the least side effects for me, so I choose this over test for bridging, had i cruised on a small dose of test, I probably wouldnt have changed my hcg set up. Whilst primo has minimal sides for me, the use of proviron along with it is not enough to prevent a severe loss of libido, but combined with the high dosed, often injected hcg, my libido was fine.

----------


## MASTER

> Heres a few I've been thinking about recently.
> 
> 1) Week 1-6 Test suspension/Tren Suspension/20 mgs Winny/Aromasin /Slin
> 
> 2)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Masteron (400mgs)/Aromasin/Slin
> 
> 3)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/Halo(40 mgs)/Aromasin/Slin
> 
> 4)Week 1-6 Test Suspension/20 mg winny/Aromasin/Slin
> ...


Pinn im interested in your use of 200mg of drol, do u find it to be noticeably more effective than 150mg, because the general consensus is diminishing returns after 100mg, though I am an advocate of using 150mg.

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## topvega

^^^^^^
Bump

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## Pinnacle

> Pinn im interested in your use of 200mg of drol, do u find it to be noticeably more effective than 150mg, because the general consensus is diminishing returns after 100mg, though I am an advocate of using 150mg.


Not really all that much more.As crazy as it my sound,the main reason I use 200 mgs on cycles is I use liquid anadrol dosed at 100 mg/ml.I dose twice daily at 100 mgs AM/and 100 mgs PM.Just simplifying things.
I have gone over 200 mgs and I felt lethargic,and extreme loss of appetite.Basically I felt like shit.

~Pinnacle~

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## marcus300

bump

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## MASTER

bumpety bump

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## MASTER

bump

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## goose

:Bbbump:

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## NYC BIG MIKE

I'm drug free.

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## shortie

A little bump for those in need of good readin!

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## guest589745

Was this it Tai?

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## taiboxa

no i dont thikn so LOL bu tits a good one too!

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## need2Bbig

good read

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## goose

Respect to the guy who started this thread.To keep this alive this is a Quote from the man PINN.

``Once you have a clear understanding of muscle fiber and what stimulus is needed to envolk hypertrophy , you must than understand the role of glycogen .The mechanics of it all are quite complex in nature . Far to in depth for me to explain via e mail. But it is quite apparent that a high carbohydrate / low protein diet is essential for " HIT " training. That goes totally against the grain of what some popular nutritionists claim. But in order to lead the orchestra you must turn your back on the crowd.A great example of such a person doing so would be Dorian. High carbohydrate / low protein diet is where I totally agree with Arthor Jones , Mike mentzer and John Little. I've yet to read Dorians view on nutrition , but I suspect he'll echo the fore mentioned though.

Here's my personal case in point . As you know I'm in my final phase of my two upcoming shows. Up until recently , I've been following the high protein / low carb (cycling ) approach to shed unwanted body fat. Of course coupled with precise cardio. This has allowed me up to a point to eat well above maintenance. In fact I've been able to easily maintain 4.5 - 5 % body fat percentages for upwards of six weeks .Needless to say I have a clear understanding of nutrition. I'm now at the point it is imperative for me to dip below caloric maintenance levels in order to force the last few pounds of fat off my torso.Certainly I could still keep with the high protein / low carb method if I dip to say 500 calories submantenance, but in order to force my body into shedding the last few pounds of fat I drastic measures must be taken. That is dip into the teens to shock my system .I'm not sure if you ever dieted in extreme fashion before,but once you get to below 500 calories sub-maintenance , you don't feel to well. Mainly due to the low carb intake. But if you understand nutrition thoroughly , you'll know a calorie is a calorie no matter how you slice it .With that said ,if you dip 500 calories below maintenace you can take in any form of calories and loose body fat. From my personal experience, high protein / low carb leaves you feeling lethargic to say the least(when sub-maintenance).On the other hand if the majority of you calories while sub-maintenance derives from carbohydrates your energy levels soar,while pritecting valuable muscle tissue as well.Since we all know carbs are protein ( muscle ) sparing.
gaith, recently I've went as low as 1300 calories a day, 950 of thoise calories came from carbohydrtaes , the rest from protein / fats . The results were astounding . I felt like I was on a 4000 k caloric diet. My mood and energy levels weren't optimum, but considering the caloric deficit imposed ,I felt damn good. In get hydrostaic testing done every four days to check body fat/ muscle tissue ratios, so I know for certain at this low level I didn't lose any muscle tissue. Most nutritionist / bodybuilding gurus lead you to believe high protein is essential for maintaining muscle mass. This couldn't be farther from the truth.The human body can produce muscle tissue with very little protein in take. I do feel as a bodybuilder , you must and can , safely consume .80 grams per pound of lean muscle tissue, and retain or grow and repair fibers..as long as high amounts of carbohydrates are present/ available.``

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## Brie

bump great read

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## Property of Steroid.com

Don't know if anyone posted this yet in this thread, but here's my cycle theory/hypothesis:

http://www.anthony-roberts.com/designing_cycle.html

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## guest589745

> Don't know if anyone posted this yet in this thread, but here's my cycle theory/hypothesis:
> 
> http://www.anthony-roberts.com/designing_cycle.html



I just read the whole thing. There was a few things I learned that I hadnt known before, like steroids are mroe "effective" in a caloric restricted environment.

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## AnabolicAndre

bring this back for some people in need of research!!!!

so much great thoughts and info in here!!!!

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## Andros

Wow, this one thread has increased my knowledge immensely.

Good stuff

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## Smedman101

This is a great thread, Pinn good job with getting this going.

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## guest589745

Yup, good one.

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## stickyrice

I hope this doesnt stop here... f**k... how should i run my cycly now??? This thread really make you think...

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## Smedman101

Anthony Roberts, I enjoyed your theory. I agree with you on the bulking cycle and time for it. 
Their are many things that are said in this thread that are not shared throught this board and should. 


"Eat your Veggies"

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## shrpskn

What ever happened to the guy that started this thread? I see he was banned. I must have missed something. 
When I was here earlier this year he was a huge contributer to this board and practically lived on here.
Just wondering...
If nobody responds, I'll assume it was not a good thing at all that got him banned...I can only imagine.

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## shrpskn

Very informative thread BTW...

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## notorious_mem

alot of guys with great knowledge has been banned from here???

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## notorious_mem

rake not included. lol

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## Smedman101

> alot of guys with great knowledge has been banned from here???


Wow I didnt noticed Pinn was "out"....

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## FranKieC

What a great asset to the baord Pinnacle was..I feel very lucky that I stil speak to him on a weekly basis

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## stupidhippo

yeah he was a very good addition to the board.. one of the best members IMO.

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## FranKieC

His knowledge was endless..But the best part was his experience with Trial and error

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## AnabolicAndre

big bump to this, I checking my email and the web browser redirected me to this page for whatever reason. I felt compelled to bump it.


enjoy!!!

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## A&FGuy

Great READ Bump!!!

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## BunkerPunk

Great post, thank you for the information.

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