# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Krugerrs TRT Journey

## krugerr

I wondered why my other thread wasnt getting many hits. Its in the "Before TRT" sub forum. Im a knob!

Basically suffered long time with LowT. Had blood tests over several years, with intermittent cycling in between and self TRT. Decided to bite the bullet and get it properly dealt with. Use Gel for 4 weeks and it just dropped my levels down to nothing. Switched to Nebido (1000mg/4ml) injection on 3rd March. The story continues from there. 

This blood test was done on 14th July, 6 weeks after my second Nebido injection. There was no booster shot. Ive created a spreadsheet to track my blood levels, and predicted Nebido levels. As shown by the graph attached. As you can see, my levels should be going up, but they've gone down. LH and FSH are suppressed heavily, so the exogenous test is present. 

Got full blood results back. Bare in mind that LH/FSH is low due to TRT for a while. Attached is the image, for anyone unable to see the table. 

Anyone able to offer some suggestions? I have a Dr appointment in 2 weeks to discuss these results. What should I go armed with?

*Free Testosterone*
*201 pmol/L*
*225-9999 pmol/L*

Serum TSH Level (XRCC)
3.5 mu/L
0.35-4.5 mu/L

*Serum Testosterone*
*7.1 nmol/L*
*10 - 35 nmol/L*

Serum Sex Hormone Binding Globin
17 nmol/L
10 - 70 nmol/L

*Serum Cholesterol*
*4.9 mmol*
*<5.2 mmol/L*

*Serum Triglycerides*
*2.11 mmol/L*
*0.28 - 2.2 mmol/L*

Serum HDL Cholesterol
1.02 mmol/L
1 - 10 mmol/L

*Calculated LDL Cholesterol*
*2.9 mmol/L*
*<3 mmol/L*

*Serum Cholesterol/HDL Ratio*
*4.8*
*<4*

*Serum LH Level*
*<0.3 u/L*
*2 - 9 u/L*

*Serum FSH Level*
*0.8 u/L*
*1 - 18 u/L*

Serum Oestradiol Level (XRCC)
102 pmol/L
0 - 146 pmol

*Haemoglobin Estimation*
*183 g/L*
*130 - 180 g/L*

Total White Cell Count
5.3 (10*9/L)
4 - 11 (10*9/L)

Platelet Count
182 (10*9/L)
150 - 500 (10*9/L)

*Red Blood Cell Count*
*6.28 (10*12/L)*
*4.5 - 6.5 (10*12/L)*

*Haemocrit*
*0.52 L/L*
*0.38 - 0.54 L/L*

Mean Corpuscular Volume (MCV)
82.8 fL
76 - 103 fL

Mean Corpusc Haemoglobin (MCH)
29.1 pg
27 - 32 pg

Mean Corpusc Hb Conc (MCHC)
352 g/L
310 - 360 g/L

Red Blood Cell Distribution Width
12.8 %CV
11 - 16 %CV

Percentage Hypochromic Cells
0.1 %
0 - 2.5 %

Neutrophil
2.86 (10*9/L)
1.5 - 8 (10*9/L)

Lymphocyte Count
1.8 (10*9/L)
1.3 - 4 (10*9/L)

Monocyte Count
0.32 (10*9/L)
0.2 - 0.8 (10*9/L)

Eosinophil Count
0.16 (10*9/L)
 0.0 - 0.8 (10*9/L)

Basophil Count
0.05 (10*9/L)
0.0 - 0.3 (10*9/L)

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## hammerheart

TSH is lil raised, ever got a full thyroid panel?

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## krugerr

> TSH is lil raised, ever got a full thyroid panel?


Thats all I have so far. I can request one at next appointment. 
It says upper limit is 4.5, so what indicates that its raised? (Newbie question)

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## kelkel

What bizz said.
Why no booster?
Add fish oil.

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## krugerr

> What bizz said.
> Why no booster?
> Add fish oil.


Dr wouldnt sign off on the booster, without him signing off, no script, no Nebido. Basically... I am going to kick his arse in the next appointment. The Booster would have made the recent test levels much higher. 

Add Fish Oil?

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## macmathews

> Dr wouldnt sign off on the booster, without him signing off, no script, no Nebido. Basically... I am going to kick his arse in the next appointment. The Booster would have made the recent test levels much higher. 
> 
> Add Fish Oil?


 I don't wanna derail this thread..
So i'll just ask .. How many grams of fish oil a day , Kel kel ?

Mac

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## Mr.BB

Im also on nebido, trying to decide if im taking the booster shot at 6weeks, which was due last tuesday.

You might want to donate before doing next bloodwork, or it might scare the doc.

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## Mr.BB

> Add Fish Oil?


And fruits and veggies, for your HDL

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## krugerr

> Im also on nebido, trying to decide if im taking the booster shot at 6weeks, which was due last tuesday. You might want to donate before doing next bloodwork, or it might scare the doc.


Forgive my ignorance again. Which stat are you reading for that?




> And fruits and veggies, for your HDL


HDL is just a ratio of total and LDL. Which is ridiculous.

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}

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## Mr.BB

> Forgive my ignorance again. Which stat are you reading for that? H* & H, hematocrit and hemoglobin*
> 
> 
> HDL is just a ratio of total and LDL. Which is ridiculous. *Your HDL is low*
> 
> {
> CPBitmapImageFormatColor = "<CGColor 0x6a01660> [<CGColorSpace 0x7151c0> (kCGColorSpaceDeviceRGB)] ( 0 0 0 1 )";
> }


In blue above.

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## IncreaseMyT

Just like I said, BURIED his T levels with that injection schedule.

Just FYI fellas his cholesterol is like that cause he is buried.

Blew up his HCT too in just 6 weeks, thats what happens when you inject that much T at once though.

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## kelkel

> I don't wanna derail this thread..
> So i'll just ask .. How many grams of fish oil a day , Kel kel ?
> 
> Mac


I do 1500 EPA and 750 DHA.

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## krugerr

> In blue above.


Righto mate. Thanks!

{
}

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## krugerr

> Just like I said, BURIED his T levels with that injection schedule. Just FYI fellas his cholesterol is like that cause he is buried. Blew up his HCT too in just 6 weeks, thats what happens when you inject that much T at once though.


Thanks mate. 

So ignore the cholesterol. Mr dr isn't a TRT specialist. So my knowledge is what we're going on. When it comes to full blood panels and stuff though, i defer to the wisdom of you guys.

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## IncreaseMyT

tell them you want every 2 or 3 week injections. So like 300mg every 2 weeks.

Bet your HDL comes up

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## krugerr

> tell them you want every 2 or 3 week injections. So like 300mg every 2 weeks. Bet your HDL comes up


 Hmm using undecoanate ? 
As UK doctors are a bit crap. Protocol is daily gel or Nebido.

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## IncreaseMyT

> Hmm using undecoanate ? 
> As UK doctors are a bit crap. Protocol is daily gel or Nebido.


Yes tell them you want to do your nebido injections once every two weeks. Tell them the injection protocol they have you on is obviously risky, just look at your labs.

If they say no tell them you want both and use the cream when your TT plummets from the Nebido.

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## krugerr

> Yes tell them you want to do your nebido injections once every two weeks. Tell them the injection protocol they have you on is obviously risky, just look at your labs. If they say no tell them you want both and use the cream when your TT plummets from the Nebido.


Thanks mate. I'll report back once i speak to him. 

Probably book myself some 4 weekly blood tests to keeps track of it.

Sent from my iPhone using App

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## Mr.BB

You should have done the booster shot like Kel said, and you probably need to space it to 10 weeks.

How do you feel on it?

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## krugerr

> You should have done the booster shot like Kel said, and you probably need to space it to 10 weeks. How do you feel on it?


Despite what the levels say. I feel much better as I've been documenting in my blog. Libido back, feeling more confident etc. 

Maybe doc will offer me a booster now and a drip to10 week protocol. 
I'd prefer to stay on Nebido if possible as it's very convenient. We'll see. 

Appreciate all the feedback guys!

Sent from my iPhone using App

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## IncreaseMyT

> You should have done the booster shot like Kel said, and you probably need to space it to 10 weeks.
> 
> How do you feel on it?


hahahahaha

How do you feel on it? Look at his labs how do you think he feels lol I can't with you today bro.

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## IncreaseMyT

Sir your cholesterol is out of whack, your blood cell mass is rising and your TT levels are basically that of a castrated man...................*BUT* how do you feel? lol

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## krugerr

> Sir your cholesterol is out of whack, your blood cell mass is rising and your TT levels are basically that of a castrated man...................BUT how do you feel? lol


If you don't want to play nice then take it to PM  :Wink: 

At this point I'll take any and all advice. I can read the results, but I can't interpret it like you guys. I see suppressed LH/FSH and see that the test is in my body. But I see FT/TT is low so that's confusing. Plus other results are whacked. It's these all together that probably paint a bigger picture that I can't see. 


Thanks for all that are contributing.

<_CFXNotificationTokenRegistration: 0x674b530>

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## Back In Black

Mate you should absolutely insist your quack refers you to an endo or urologist as he has no idea. At least you should get regular bloodwork

The insert and the nebido website states a booster is required. It might or might not be too late for that now but it would/should keep your levels more stable.

You know I love my nebido, I have a shot every 11 weeks currently and everything is in range. No doubt I get a little spike in test and e2 a week or 2 after my shot but it's minimal, I have no need for an ai and get no noticeable side effects.

IMT, nebido isn't used in the states but you get aveed on a different dosing protocol and size of injection. You can't just poo poo something because you believe levels will be all over the place because it's 1g of test. Sadly the OP is being treated by a quack not an expert which is probably why his numbers stink. At the stage of those tests he is 1g of test down on what he should have had so of course his test levels stink.

Kruger, insist you see an expert or insist you see another GP. The NHS are trying to save as much money as possible across the boar but it's no excuse for GP's to give you poor service. You can always file a complaint against him. TBH, go armed with what you know, as it will be more than your GP knows, he may well refer you anyway to save any embarrassment for a patient knowing more than the 'expert'.

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## krugerr

> Mate you should absolutely insist your quack refers you to an endo or urologist as he has no idea. At least you should get regular bloodwork The insert and the nebido website states a booster is required. It might or might not be too late for that now but it would/should keep your levels more stable. You know I love my nebido, I have a shot every 11 weeks currently and everything is in range. No doubt I get a little spike in test and e2 a week or 2 after my shot but it's minimal, I have no need for an ai and get no noticeable side effects. IMT, nebido isn't used in the states but you get aveed on a different dosing protocol and size of injection. You can't just poo poo something because you believe levels will be all over the place because it's 1g of test. Sadly the OP is being treated by a quack not an expert which is probably why his numbers stink. At the stage of those tests he is 1g of test down on what he should have had so of course his test levels stink. Kruger, insist you see an expert or insist you see another GP. The NHS are trying to save as much money as possible across the boar but it's no excuse for GP's to give you poor service. You can always file a complaint against him. TBH, go armed with what you know, as it will be more than your GP knows, he may well refer you anyway to save any embarrassment for a patient knowing more than the 'expert'.



BiB, thanks very much for that feedback brother. Very helpful. I saw an Endo once who basically wrote a letter to my GP to say that Nebido should be used. 

I'll keep you posted.

<CALayer: 0x8644830>

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## Back In Black

Do you have a copy of the letter? I got a copy of mine detailing the booster, shots every 10-12 weeks and what bloodwork and when. If you don't have a copy get your doc to give you one.

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## krugerr

> Do you have a copy of the letter? I got a copy of mine detailing the booster, shots every 10-12 weeks and what bloodwork and when. If you don't have a copy get your doc to give you one.


BIB - THE endo basicallu wrote a letter to my Dr saying that if another blood test revealed low levels, to administer TRT. Snippit attached.

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## Back In Black

Well, it says get re-referred if required..........

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## IncreaseMyT

> IMT, nebido isn't used in the states but you get aveed on a different dosing protocol and size of injection. You can't just poo poo something because you believe levels will be all over the place because it's 1g of test.


I can poo poo on it all I want, I have submitted ample evidence in other threads on why every 6 or 10 week schedules are:

*DOWNRIGHT DANGEROUS*

And guess what? *These labs PROVE it.*

So when I see a bunch of people pushing a shitty injection protocol, I am going to let the OP know whether you like or not ok?

Why? Because unlike all the Nebido pimps *I care about his health and wellness.*

This has nothing to do with the OP, I am trying to help the OP. I gave two solutions to his problem. Just because you don't understand why what he is doing is dangerous doesn't mean I need to sugar coat it for anyone.

Thanks for the opinion though.

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## Back In Black

> I can poo poo on it all I want, I have submitted ample evidence in other threads on why every 6 or 10 week schedules are:
> 
> *DOWNRIGHT DANGEROUS*
> 
> And guess what? *These labs PROVE it.*
> 
> So when I see a bunch of people pushing a shitty injection protocol, I am going to let the OP know whether you like or not ok?
> 
> Why? Because unlike all the Nebido pimps *I care about his health and wellness.*
> ...


*Well, I'm certainly not going through all your posts to search for this 'ample evidence' but feel free to repost it so I can read why thousands of people over the world (including myself) are being treated incorrectly.*

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## IncreaseMyT

> *why thousands of people over the world (including myself) are being treated incorrectly.*


Not just incorrectly, downright awful. Its a marketing gimmick. They did the same thing with Sustanon in the 70's. 




> *Summary and Conclusion* 
> 
> *(after these were done with threads on Nebido, if you want to risk your health with every 10 week injection schedules go for it)*
> 
> *1.*  Mr BB you claimed that every 10 week injections of Nebido were safe and effective. IMT highly disagrees. As we said earlier in the thread if one were to attain steady state levels and then do an injection of 1,000 mg your TT would hit 7,000 ng/dl. We stand by this statement.
> 
> *2.*  Mr BB you posted a mapping table of TT levels of men on every 10 week TU injections. We did not realize you were never trying to reach steady state, *that did not even come to mind because the whole goal of TRT is to attain and maintain steady state levels similar to eugonadal production*. Your table clearly illustrates the negative effect of 10 week intervals. Patients falling into the 200 ng/dl range after being at 1200 ng/dl is a recipe for disaster. If you want this same effect simply inject TC 300mg every 3-4 weeks. Your peak and trough levels would be roughly the same as the table. (talk to a doc)
> 
> *3.* Mr BB earlier you posted an archaic table claiming to illustrate half-lives of certain esters such as testosterone enanthate . I am not sure if you are aware but the community has understood that is completely false for years now and we and the communities that allow us to post work tirelessly to educate men and the physicians that treat them, that *enanthate and cypionate are actually 5-6 day esters.* Spreading misinformation that these esters have 2 week half-lives plunges this community and TRT itself back into the stone age.
> ...


http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...ml#post7188408

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## Mr.BB

> do an injection of 1,000 mg your TT would hit 7,000 ng/dl. We stand by this statement.


Thanks for making me laugh a bit more, actually need it today  :Smilie:

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## IncreaseMyT

> Thanks for making me laugh a bit more, actually need it today


Well I didn't know I was dealing with amateurs, i tried putting myself in their shoes to imagine what would happen if I were actually stupid enough to try something like a 10 week injection schedule. I never claimed to have tried it.

Then I realized you were never trying to even attain steady state, so injection was like starting TRT all over again.......so if thats your idea of TRT I can have a laugh at that.

Just look at OPs blood work....... nuff said.

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## krugerr

> Thanks for making me laugh a bit more, actually need it today


I injected 1000mg/4ml Nebido on 3rd March. 

1st April: 
Free test - 9.8 nmol/L
Total test - 225 ng/dl

So that was 4 weeks after injection and TT was not even close to the 7000 you said IMT. But then it's barely out of the LowT threshold either. I would have expected it to be higher.

<OS_nw_path_evaluator: 0xcd79160>

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## IncreaseMyT

> I injected 1000mg/4ml Nebido on 3rd March. 
> 
> 1st April: 
> Free test - 9.8 nmol/L
> Total test - 225 ng/dl
> 
> So that was 4 weeks after injection and TT was not even close to the 7000 you said IMT. But then it's barely out of the LowT threshold either. I would have expected it to be higher.
> 
> <OS_nw_path_evaluator: 0xcd79160>


Listen everyone is just a little confused and I will explain it one more time. If you had developed steady state levels, if your trough was coming in at 800, you would go to 5-7k on 1 shot of Nebido. Its not hard to figure out, once steady state levels are achieved you can use the rule of 10.

For instance if someone does 200mg per week of C or E their levels will hit 2k and drop to half of that 1k (in 7 days) plus or minus 100 or 200 points.

Then I realized the 10 week injection schedule is never develops steady state levels. If you do not know what that means look it up. it is the entire point of TRT.

So when you do a 10 week injection schedule you are flooding your body with testosterone , THEN already at week for your at 200 (wild swings like your in puberty). In the danger zone. The zone that affects your ability to manage blood sugar levels and cholesterol. This why your cholesterol is being affected, because of the low testosterone . Now if you were on a 10 week injection schedule you would still have 6 weeks to go!!!!! You would have low T for 6 weeks. This is bad, this increases your risk of dying, LITERALLY.

So the idea of TRT is to keep TRT within eugonadal range through peak and trough levels. Its less risky to go over than it use to bottom out like that.

So like I suggested ask your doctor to split the injections up, just ask whats the harm? Your not asking for more medication your just asking to split it up. This will keep your TT levels from EVER falling below 300.

If Nebido was smart they would make 3 different single dose ampules:

600mg

400mg

300mg

This would fit just about everyone. You could use the 600 for the booster shot and the 300 and 400 could be dosed every 2 - 4 weeks.

I challenge ANYONE to get their schedule switched and compare bloods, they will be much better and your HDL will come up. You will lower inflammation essentially.

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## IncreaseMyT

You guys are behind, here in the states we just went through this. Some doctors still do it.

On the bottle of Watson testosterone cypionate it says "inject 50-200 mg every 2 -4 weeks" *We have seen labs when people do this and just like OP its not pretty.*

Thats totally ridiculous, we have been working hard for years teaching doctors cypionate is a 7 day ester and needs to be dosed according to the half-life. The half life is about 7 days. SO at least once per week injections.

Undecanoate is AT MOST a 21 day ester.......SO why would you not dose at least every 21 days? No one is making sense I cant believe I even have to explain this.

TU DOES NOT have a 10 week half-life. 

*SOOO..... now you guys have to go out and educate your doctors like we have been doing in the states for 10 years.*

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## Back In Black

> Not just incorrectly, downright awful. Its a marketing gimmick. They did the same thing with Sustanon in the 70's. 
> 
> 
> 
> http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...ml#post7188408


Sorry, the 'ample evidence' that you give in that thread appears to be your own idea that 10 week injections are dangerous. Forgive me if I missed a study you have quoted but I really can't see anything other than your own opinion. 

It's funny that 10's of thousands of people are being treated inappropriately in your opinion yet most of those patients I bet have fairly steady levels. Sure there will be peaks and troughs but the spike isn't anywhere near as high as you outrageously claim and the troughs aren't that low either.

Yes undefinable may have a relatively short half life compared to the 10-12 week recommended dose but I am still well within range at 11 weeks. I believe the size of the globule created by the 4ml being injected slooooooowly has a bearing on this too.

Believe it's a marketing ploy all you want. Of course, you wouldn't try and use a marketing ploy like having a pic of a guy pulling his jacket apart a la superman suggesting your treatment will make a guy feel that way, now would you, lol.

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## IncreaseMyT

hahaha all the evidence I need is in this thread....... *Look at the labs!!!!* This thread is on par with everything I said in the last thread. 

Im out do whatever you want, just post labs every now and then so I can have a chuckle.

 :Lame: 

IMT < ------- most knowledgable TRT clinic IN THE WORLD.  :Smilie:

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## Back In Black

> hahaha all the evidence I need is in this thread....... *Look at the labs!!!!* This thread is on par with everything I said in the last thread. 
> 
> Im out do whatever you want, just post labs every now and then so I can have a chuckle.
> 
> 
> 
> IMT < ------- most knowledgable TRT clinic IN THE WORLD.


Well, if you actually read my earlier post I said his test will be low because he has missed a booster. A booster recommended which helps to get levels up, as they did in my case. Oh wait no, that's only recommended because they are marketing genius's. LMFAO.

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## IncreaseMyT

> Well, if you actually read my earlier post I said his test will be low because he has missed a booster. A booster recommended which helps to get levels up, as they did in my case. Oh wait no, that's only recommended because they are marketing genius's. LMFAO.


If you even bothered to read the other thread I posted, you will see Mr BB posted a table of a bunch of men on every 10 week injections. By 40th day some men were already below 300. And due to know testing around day 35 its possible and likely they were there already at that time.

10 weeks is 70 days.

The half-life is 21 days, its just math not hard to figure out.

Sorry your having trouble with it.

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## IncreaseMyT



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## Back In Black

> If you even bothered to read the other thread I posted, you will see Mr BB posted a table of a bunch of men on every 10 week injections. By 40th day some men were already below 300.
> 
> 10 weeks is 70 days.
> 
> The half-life is 21 days, its just math not hard to figure out.
> 
> Sorry your having trouble with it.



'Some men' doesn't mean all. Of course not every therapy suits every man.

FFS, I'm aware of half lives so don't fvcking patronise me, board sponsor or not.

Nebido doesn't work that way (I already mentioned the size of the globule slowing release) but, if it makes you feel better here goes....

Wow, a marketing ploy you're probably right. At least we can trust you guys at IMt to keep us on the straight on narrow. I suppose that as some of your patients start threads here just to praise you then you must be the best.

Better?

I'm out

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## IncreaseMyT

Yea thanks for dropping the f bomb. I am patronizing you because you obviously have no idea how to suggest proper TRT and the labs prove it. Whether I am a board sponsor or not has nothing to do with. I think your injection schedule sucks.

He didn't miss a booster shot. Even if he did his levels were already where they are before he would have received it. 

The injection schedule is marketing ploy to appeal to people that may not like injections. Sustanon tried the same thing. 

So no its not better, its common fucking sense.

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## Back In Black

> Yea thanks for dropping the f bomb. I am patronizing you because you obviously have no idea how to suggest proper TRT and the labs prove it. Whether I am a board sponsor or not has nothing to do with. I think your injection schedule sucks.
> 
> He didn't miss a booster shot. Even if he did his levels were already where they are before he would have received it. 
> 
> The injection schedule is marketing ploy to appeal to people that may not like injections. Sustanon tried the same thing. 
> 
> So no its not better, its common fucking sense.


Man I'm out. My labs are always good they suggest my nebido protocol work but you are ignoring that and the thousands of others that are all within range. Is it as good as test e or cyp for giving really stable levels? No, but it's all a lot of people get the opportunity to have. I have a small spike and am within range after 11 weeks. My other relevant bloods are all within range.

Your blanket comments that it's dangerous are wrong because there are so many it works for.

Kruger, you know where I am if you want to take advice from someone who actually uses this therapy successfully.

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## IncreaseMyT

Post them up then.........if there are so many labs out there on 10 week injection schedules that are bullets lets see them.

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## Back In Black

I'll get copies and post them no problem. I don't have anything to hide.

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## IncreaseMyT

Great. Make sure you test the day of your injection before you do it.

Thanks.

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## hammerheart

Just wanted to share this bw from one year ago, took at *week 10*

Total T: 850 ng/dl

SHBG .. 66 nmol/l

E2 (non sensitive) 18 pg/ml

Free T (calculated) 11.2 ng/dl


Being a slow release ester the undecanoate failed to reduced SHBG to an appreciable level, the result is normal tT, poor fT and, being it non-sensitive, a crushed E2.

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## IncreaseMyT

Which probably gave you as many symptoms as low T would.

What did the low E2 do to your lipids? To the liver?

If your TT was 850 in week 10 then you can assume using a 21 day half life that your TT levels were at least 3,000 plus at peak, *far above eugonadal range.*

So the huge swing in TT levels made your SHBG rebound crushing your free T and leaving no material for your body to make other crucial hormones.

So to both BB's, it doesn't matter which way you slice it, this eratic injection schedule is sub-optimal and *MANY* times downright dangerous.

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## IncreaseMyT

AND thats a conservative calculation. Realistically the half-life, based on the table above and comparison to a shorter ester cypionate , is much closer to 14 days.

Which means your TT was much closer to 5k at peak.

*You can see some went to 1200 and back to 500 in the first 14 days.*

Half-life's can change considerably based on body composition and other factors but not by 8 weeks.

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## Mr.BB

> 


Thats a Aveed chart BTW, you know the 750mg aproved in US and that requires administration in office?

So as Aveed is only 75% of Nebido, 70 days (10 weeks) shots with Nebido will put you higher than in this graph.

IMT is completely wrong again, and making a fool of himself. He is even accepting this graph that only goes to 1200 ng/dl... Where's the 7000's????

Havent you been in school to learn statistics and graphs??? You need to look at the average where most men will fall, there is always some values that go low as in every study, if you show a graph of enanthate similarly there will be small % low.

Stop making a fool of yourself, do something usefull for yourself like creative internet marketing.

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## IncreaseMyT

Just because you don't understand half-lives or the difference from taking a shot with no T in your system vs taking a shot when you have developed steady state levels, does not make me a fool.




> *In pharmacokinetics, steady state refers to the situation where the overall intake of a drug is fairly in dynamic equilibrium with its elimination..*

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## IncreaseMyT

See the difference between my chart and yours?

This is not hard to understand guys.

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## hammerheart

> Which probably gave you as many symptoms as low T would.
> 
> What did the low E2 do to your lipids? To the liver?
> 
> If your TT was 850 in week 10 then you can assume using a 21 day half life that your TT levels were at least 3,000 plus at peak, *far above eugonadal range.*
> 
> So the huge swing in TT levels made your SHBG rebound crushing your free T and leaving no material for your body to make other crucial hormones.
> 
> So to both BB's, it doesn't matter which way you slice it, this eratic injection schedule is sub-optimal and *MANY* times downright dangerous.


No idea about lipids, the endo never cared to check them. Liver enzymes always OK. PSA however spiked to *7.32 ng/ml*, but subsided in a couple of months. That's when I decided to get off nebido.

We will never know how much total T spiked, upper assay sensitivity is 1350, and yes lab reported >1350 on multiple occasions.

Yes that was very likely what caused TRT with nebido to fail.

----------


## Mr.BB

> See the difference between my chart and yours?
> 
> This is not hard to understand guys.


Bet your chart is more like this:

----------


## krugerr

Firstly thanks all for the contributions. Discussions like this are the way to challenge new thinking and move forward with new techniques and protocols. 

IMT I'm going to re read your posts and keep a much closer eye on blood levels from here on. 

I think I'm going to say on Nebido for the time being. It's more convenient to inject less frequently. I'm going to request the booster and track my TT levels peaks.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> Bet your chart is more like this:


Nope your not accounting for the initial climb, which is apparently the part you do not understand.

OP I never suggested coming off Nebido, merely asking them to change your injection schedule. Very simple solution to a problem you have based on labs.

I am out gotta go to this chic's B day party. To the BB's have fun defending the worst injection schedule in the history of testosterone replacement therapy.  :Dancing Banana:

----------


## krugerr

> Nope your not accounting for the initial climb, which is apparently the part you do not understand. OP I never suggested coming off Nebido, merely asking them to change your injection schedule. Very simple solution to a problem you have based on labs. I am out gotta go to this chic's B day party. To the BB's have fun defending the worst injection schedule in the history of testosterone replacement therapy.


Apologies. I meant 10-12 week protocol. 

Enjoy that Par-tay!

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## krugerr

Afternoon All. 
Doctors appt is next tuesday. So will have more information soon!

Earlier on in this thread Kel mentioned introducing Fish Oils. Can anyone (Or Kel) advise which reading prompted that response, and why?

thanks!

----------


## NACH3

> hahaha all the evidence I need is in this thread....... *Look at the labs!!!!* This thread is on par with everything I said in the last thread. 
> 
> Im out do whatever you want, just post labs every now and then so I can have a chuckle.
> 
> 
> 
> IMT < ------- most knowledgable TRT clinic IN THE WORLD.


He's not had his booster shot which obviously wrecked havoc on his levels being how far past the wk 6 mark was - 
Like I've said and BIB as well... They're are many using this protocol... Though it may swing a tad low in the beginning once it's at its 'steady State' I've seen guys' bw after 12 wks still @ about 700 TT - not bad at all for a trough let alone an extended trough at that... Just my .02

----------


## hammerheart

> Afternoon All. 
> Doctors appt is next tuesday. So will have more information soon!
> 
> Earlier on in this thread Kel mentioned introducing Fish Oils. Can anyone (Or Kel) advise which reading prompted that response, and why?
> 
> thanks!


According to research and various health organizations, an intake of EPA+DHA found in fish oil (which are essential nutrients btw) of at least 1g can help with CV health and 2-4g can lower cholesterol, and yours is already borderline. Of course you should also look into avoid dipping your T levels as it will negatively impact lipid profile.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> He's not had his booster shot which obviously wrecked havoc on his levels being how far past the wk 6 mark was - 
> Like I've said and BIB as well... They're are many using this protocol... Though it may swing a tad low in the beginning once it's at its 'steady State' I've seen guys' bw after 12 wks still @ about 700 TT - not bad at all for a trough let alone an extended trough at that... Just my .02


It just doesn't work Nach, if levels are not dropping too low on a 10 week injection schedule then they are going too high.

You have to dose ester based testosterone according to the half life or you cannot achieve steady state.

Just looking out for you guys.

----------


## krugerr

> He's not had his booster shot which obviously wrecked havoc on his levels being how far past the wk 6 mark was - 
> Like I've said and BIB as well... They're are many using this protocol... Though it may swing a tad low in the beginning once it's at its 'steady State' I've seen guys' bw after 12 wks still @ about 700 TT - not bad at all for a trough let alone an extended trough at that... Just my .02


Id rather be at a trough of 700 than my current 200, thats for sure! :P





> According to research and various health organizations, an intake of EPA+DHA found in fish oil (which are essential nutrients btw) of at least 1g can help with CV health and 2-4g can lower cholesterol, and yours is already borderline. Of course you should also look into avoid dipping your T levels as it will negatively impact lipid profile.


Fantastic mate, thanks. I'll start dosing. 






> It just doesn't work Nach, if levels are not dropping too low on a 10 week injection schedule then they are going too high.
> 
> You have to dose ester based testosterone according to the half life or you cannot achieve steady state.
> 
> Just looking out for you guys.


IMT - I do see your point, the levels would have to be very high to create a trough of 700. But I think this comes down to half-life timings. Depending where you read you get very different results. Ive seen a lot a data suggesting that Nebido/Aveed (Test Undecoanate) is 70-90 days half life. If that were the case, then peak levels wouldnt have to be that high to account for the 'high' trough.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> Ive seen a lot a data suggesting that Nebido/Aveed (Test Undecoanate) is 70-90 days half life. If that were the case, then peak levels wouldnt have to be that high to account for the 'high' trough.


Thats inaccurate information. Just look at the chart Mr BB posted of men on it, it is obvious the half-life is 2-3 weeks.

Remember for years people thought test cyp was a 14 day ester. When its actually 5 or 6 days.

----------


## krugerr

> Elimination
> Testosterone undergoes extensive hepatic and extrahepatic metabolism. After the administration of radio-labelled testosterone, about 90% of the radioactivity appears in the urine as glucuronic and sulphuric acid conjugates and 6% appears in the faeces after undergoing enterohepatic circulation. Urinary medicinal products include androsterone and etiocholanolone. Following intramuscular administration of this depot formulation the release rate is characterised by a *half life of 90±40 days*.


Source: https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/15661





> In order to better establish (von Eckardstein and Nieschlag 2002) suitable injection intervals for TU, 7 hypogonadal men received injections at gradually increasing intervals between the 5th and 10th injection (starting with 6-weeks injection interval) and from then on every 12-weeks. Steady state kinetics were assessed after the 13th injection. Cmax was 32.0 ± 11.7 nmol/L and *half-life was 70.2 ± 21.1 days*


Source: Testosterone depot injection in male hypogonadism: a critical appraisal

----------


## krugerr

> Thats inaccurate information. Just look at the chart Mr BB posted of men on it, it is obvious the half-life is 2-3 weeks.
> 
> Remember for years people thought test cyp was a 14 day ester. When its actually 5 or 6 days.


You can see why there is confusion surrounding this though. If websites like the one I have sourced are suggesting very long half lives, as well as the manufacturer. Its no wonder that most use an injection protocol that would reflect this. (70 days being 10 weekly, 91 days being 13 weeks.)

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> 


Kruger it doesn't matter what that text says. I can show you info right now that says testosterone cypionate is a 14 day half-life. That doesn't mean its true.

Just look at the chart in this post. People were well under 500, more than half, by day 14.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> You can see why there is confusion surrounding this though. If websites like the one I have sourced are suggesting very long half lives, as well as the manufacturer. Its no wonder that most use an injection protocol that would reflect this. (70 days being 10 weekly, 91 days being 13 weeks.)



I totally get it. I am not saying your silly or uneducated for doing what was suggested by your doctor. I am just giving you the info so you can educate your doctor. 

Nedido could be done *VERY* effectively, *IF* half-life, the proper one, was taken into account in order to achieve steady state levels.

----------


## krugerr

> Kruger it doesn't matter what your text says. I can show you info right now that says testosterone cypionate is a 14 day half-life. That doesn't mean its true.
> 
> Just look at the chart in this post. People were well under 500, more than half, by day 14.


Okay - but for the sake of debating. Wheres the evidence that says that graph is accurate. Just trying to invoke some healthy discussion  :Wink:

----------


## krugerr

> Nedido could be done *VERY* effectively, *IF* half-life, the proper one, was taken into account in order to achieve steady state levels.


Therein lies the problem. My Dr says that Nebido website is correct, and you say it isnt. How do I convince him otherwise, or likewise with you.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

Well the graph is accurate because it is actual men on TU. So it has to be accurate.

Remember half-lives are estimations and vary depending on things like age, body fat, and the amount and levels of the two types of esterase in our body.

BUT there is no way its gonna be 90 days when that chart, of real men on it, are between 14-21.

Is it possible for some its 30 days? Yea but I would say thats about it.\

I have also seen labs of men on Sustanon , and the main ester in it is TU.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> Therein lies the problem. My Dr says that Nebido website is correct, and you say it isnt. How do I convince him otherwise, or likewise with you.



Show him that chart Mr BB Posted. You can't argue with it.

Or tell him do do labs for you on day 21 after your shot. Then you guys can figure it out together.

----------


## krugerr

> Well the graph is accurate because it is actual men on TU. So it has to be accurate.
> 
> Remember half-lives are estimations and very depending on things like age, body fat, and the amount and levels of the two types of esterase in our body.
> 
> BUT there is no way its gonna be 90 days when that chart, of real men on it, are between 14-21.
> 
> Is it possible for some its 30 days? Yea but I would say thats about it.\
> 
> I have also seen labs of men on Sustanon, and the main ester in it is TU.


Well we've a live test subject. Im going to get a blood test the day before my next shot, and I am going to get weekly blood tests. We'll quickly see where its at, and even after a week I could project the half life, but I'll run them weekly until the next shot. This will give us accurate data on at least me.

----------


## Mr.BB

*the chart is for 750mg aveed not nebido*

----------


## krugerr

So, here are the two blood tests on myself. The yellow NEBIDO line, is predicting a half life of 21 days, for the sake of argument. 

That would coincide fairly closely to my actual results. 

Test 1 - Nebido 400 (TT 225 ng/dl)
Test 2 - Nebido 350 (TT 201 ng/dl)





EDIT - Image two was incorrect. Amended.

----------


## krugerr

If We assume Nebido half life of 70 days on my graphs. It shows as below.
It doesnt quite add up. Ive technically more Nebido in my system at the 2nd blood test, but have lower levels. 

Test 1 - Nebido 830 (TT 225 ng/dl)
Test 2 - Nebido 1000 (TT 201 ng/dl)


However, we are still in the loading phase, and not at steady state. So with future testing we'll be able to see more closely I guess.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

You cant get to steady state if you do not dose according to half-life.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> *the chart is for 750mg aveed not nebido*


*How do you not realize its the same thing? 

This is what I mean, you think its actually different?*

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> If Nebido was smart they would make 3 different single dose ampules:
> 
> 600mg
> 
> 400mg
> 
> 300mg
> 
> This would fit just about everyone. You could use the 600 for the booster shot and the 300 and 400 could be dosed every 2 - 4 weeks.
> ...



^^^^ thats where your gonna be if you want to do it right. When you for 6 years see all these labs (thousands) and watch practical application you become pretty good at guessing these things.

You also have to take into account ester weight, which I have done.

----------


## Mr.BB

> *How do you not realize its the same thing? 
> 
> This is what I mean, you think its actually different?*


Again you are wrong.

Aveed is 750mg, and Nebido is 1000mg, so they are different and will give different serum values.

----------


## Mr.BB

> ^^^^ thats where your gonna be if you want to do it right. When you for 6 years see all these labs (thousands) and watch practical application you become pretty good at guessing these things.
> 
> You also have to take into account ester weight, which I have done.


In this 6 years how many times or clients you have injecting Aveed or Nebido?

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> In this 6 years how many times or clients you have injecting Aveed or Nebido?


It doesn't matter all you have to do is account for the half-life and ester weight.

This is really easy to figure out, its just math. Then you have to know roughly how much raw test cleaved over that period will put levels at x.

No one has been able to produce a SINGLE good lab on every 10 week injection schedule. Not one.

If its out there I sure have't seen it. Strange isn't with all the tens of thousands of people on it successfully?

Where are your labs Mr BB?

----------


## IncreaseMyT

I can show hundreds of bullets labs though, with people dosing TC according to the correct half-life. I used the table *YOU* posted to prove the half-life of TU.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

After pondering further and looking at Bizzaro's post let me see if I can explain the confusion.

First lets talk about what a half-life means. If I inject 1,000mg of TU that means in 1 half-life I will still have 500 mg in the depot. During the 2nd half-life only 250mg will be dispensed in the blood stream over that period. And on the 3rd 125mg.

So the possible explanation for Bizzaro 850 TT after 10 weeks is this. He was on it for a year, and after a year levels will climb and compound. They will just do so at a much slower rate because of the way half-lives works.

So this means eratic levels for entire year to get there, then when you actually get there now your spiking your TT levels to 5 k or maybe even more.

This is why its so important to dose the medication according to one half-life.

Hope that makes sense.

----------


## Mr.BB

> It doesn't matter all you have to do is account for the half-life and ester weight.
> 
> This is really easy to figure out, its just math. Then you have to know roughly how much raw test cleaved over that period will put levels at x.
> 
> No one has been able to produce a SINGLE good lab on every 10 week injection schedule. Not one.
> 
> If its out there I sure have't seen it. Strange isn't with all the tens of thousands of people on it successfully?
> 
> Where are your labs Mr BB?


So you have ZERO experience with Aveed/Nebido, yet you called me stupid numerous times and disregard any data/studies/charts provided. 

You are just a rude person with big ego.

Will be glad to share bloods when I take'em, only have pre-bloods, gonna do a booster shot next week.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

You are, and you obviously have a motive. Because your disputing perfectly logical reason.

Also like I said have seen labs on sustanon and its main ester is TU.

SOOOoooo. BTW you also called IMT "reckless" so I did not say anything negative until you did that. Because that is false.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> So you have ZERO experience with Aveed/Nebido, yet you called me stupid numerous times and disregard any data/studies/charts provided. 
> 
> You are just a rude person with big ego.
> 
> Will be glad to share bloods when I take'em, only have pre-bloods, gonna do a booster shot next week.


Well don't use HCG at the end to boost your baseline and take your test on day after your TU shot AND day before the next one.

Then you will see what I say is not only true, but spot on.

I don't have an ego I am trying to make you understand I am not pulling this out of my ass.

*So to be clear 2 separate lab draws will put this all to rest. One the day before your booster and one the day after.*

----------


## Mr.BB

> *So to be clear 2 separate lab draws will put this all to rest. One the day before your booster and one the day after.*


Im on tren now dude which would skrew any hormone result.

Next week bloods will be only CBC, lipids and liver

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> im on tren now dude which would skrew any hormone result.
> 
> Next week bloods will be only cbc, lipids and liver


*which is my point your running around here telling people how good this terrible injection schedule is and you don't even know if it actually works cause your on tren.

Its absolutely ridiculous that i have to even explain this to you.*

----------


## Mr.BB

> *which is my point your running around here telling people how good this terrible injection schedule is and you don't even know if it actually works cause your on tren .
> 
> Its absolutely ridiculous that i have to even explain this to you.*


Again, the rudeness and big ego surfaces.

Good thing you dont take tren, you would be impossible to put up lol.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

Seriously I can't believe the the things you said in hindsight. Absolutely clueless with no labs to back up your supposed program.

Called us reckless as a new sponsor. 

And like I knew the entire time, you are wrong. There is no reason to debate it.

But yea a simple apology clarifying that would be appreciated and acceptable  :Smilie:

----------


## hammerheart

> After pondering further and looking at Bizzaro's post let me see if I can explain the confusion.
> 
> First lets talk about what a half-life means. If I inject 1,000mg of TU that means in 1 half-life I will still have 500 mg in the depot. During the 2nd half-life only 250mg will be dispensed in the blood stream over that period. And on the 3rd 125mg.
> 
> So the possible explanation for Bizzaro 850 TT after 10 weeks is this. He was on it for a year, and after a year levels will climb and compound. They will just do so at a much slower rate because of the way half-lives works.
> 
> So this means eratic levels for entire year to get there, then when you actually get there now your spiking your TT levels to 5 k or maybe even more.
> 
> This is why its so important to dose the medication according to one half-life.
> ...



It makes perfect sense, first pin resulted in tT of 600 just six weeks later.

However let's not forget how impaired thyroid will affect sex hormones metabolism; I had FT3 levels swaying from 2.2 to 3.5 across the period, that could have played a role.

----------


## krugerr

> It makes perfect sense, first pin resulted in tT of 600 just six weeks later.
> 
> However let's not forget how impaired thyroid will affect sex hormones metabolism; I had FT3 levels swaying from 2.2 to 3.5 across the period, that could have played a role.


Apologies If i missed this. What did you pin to get a TT of 600ng/dl at 6 weeks?

----------


## hammerheart

*First pin of nebido (1000mg).

----------


## krugerr

> *First pin of nebido (1000mg).


Assuming the following half lives of nebido, I can predict the estimated value after 6 weeks (42 days). 
However though, since the opinions on the half life vary, this doesnt help too much!

Estimated point on the exponential decay after 42 days:
90 day Half life - 77.35%
70 day Half Life - 68.50%
21 Day Half Life - 29.29%
14 Day Half Life - 20.63%

So that means estimated peak levels on that same curve of:
90 days - 775.63 ng/dl
70 days - 875.89 ng/dl
21 days - 2048.52 ng/dl
14 days - 2908.39 ng/dl

N.B. - Yes, Im fvcking bored at work, so given half the chance I'll distract myself with pointless excel exercises!  :Wink: 

*Edit: Explaining the above for those that dont understand my logic.*

That means if at 42 days you had TT levels of 600ng/dl;
* and you believe the halflife is 90 days. Your peak level was 775.63ng/dl. At 42 days you were at 77.35% of peak value.
* and you believe the halflife is 70 days. Your peak level was 875.89ng/dl. At 42 days you were at 68.5% of peak value.
* and you believe the halflife is 21 days. Your peak level was 2048.52ng/dl. At 42 days you were at 29.29% of peak value.
* and you believe the halflife is 14 days. Your peak level was 2908.39ng/dl. At 42 days you were at 20.63% of peak value.

----------


## hammerheart

Well I also have a lab showing tT >1350 ng/dl on *first* pin - so peak levels are well above that!

----------


## krugerr

> Well I also have a lab showing tT >1350 ng/dl on *first* pin - so peak levels are well above that!


How many days after your first pin was that?

If I know both things, I can plot a good guesstimate.

Just remembered you'd previously said you didnt have a value, just that it was over 1350. So I cant work it like I was going too.
I also realised Ive made an assumption about TT levels decaying at the same rate as the Nebido.

----------


## Mr.BB

You are assuming perfect lines of absorvancy, when multiples variables can affect the ester release.

Plus there are multiple studies with lab results, do you have reasons to doubt published medical data?

----------


## krugerr

> You are assuming perfect lines of absorvancy, when multiples variables can affect the ester release.
> 
> Plus there are multiple studies with lab results, do you have reasons to doubt published medical data?


Yeah I realise I have assumed perfect circumstances surrounding the half lives. 
No reason, other than I like to model data myself, call it my inner geek. Plus, with the above dispute regarding the half life, I was hoping to use real data from myself (Or Bizzaro) to put a good guesstimate on the decay times. 

Because if IMT is correct (14-21 days) then really its not a healthy swing in peak to trough, despite how good the trough numbers look, you're still down to 20% of peak value at 6 weeks. 
But if hes wrong, then he may adopt other practices, or at least acknowledge the legitimacy of Nebido/Aveed protocols. 

TLDR: Im a geek and any excuse to play with Excel, I'll take it.

----------


## hammerheart

It was ten days after pin, forgot to add sorry.

----------


## krugerr

> It was ten days after pin, forgot to add sorry.


Cool, I cant actually use it anyway as we dont know what your level was. Nevermind eh! Thanks though bud. I was just going to run a simple plot graph to estimate how fast it was decaying. 
But as I remembered, and BB pointed out, Im assuming TT decays the same way that the injected TU would.

----------


## Mr.BB

> Because if IMT is correct (14-21 days) then really its not a healthy swing in peak to trough, despite how good the trough numbers look, you're still *down to 20% of peak value* at 6 weeks. 
> But if hes wrong, then he may adopt other practices, or at least acknowledge the legitimacy of Nebido/Aveed protocols.


You are always going to have peaks and valleys with injected testosterone , unless you inject everyday or more.
Enanthate have a much higher peak in 24 hours, and one day after you are already over 20% down from the peak.
In earlier discussions I've quoted studies with data regarding max peaks, cant do it now as im on phone.

Personnaly if on my third injection im below 500 I will antecipate to 8 or 9 weeks. Regarding the peak from my first injection seriously doubt I was anywhere near 2000, maybe 1500 tops, but nowhere near the claimed 5000 or 7000 ng/dL by IMT (what a brain fart). 
I know how it feels to be on cycle at 5000ng/dL ,nebido has nowhere near a peak like this.

----------


## krugerr

> You are always going to have peaks and valleys with injected testosterone , unless you inject everyday or more.
> Enanthate have a much higher peak in 24 hours, and one day after you are already over 20% down from the peak.
> In earlier discussions I've quoted studies with data regarding max peaks, cant do it now as im on phone.
> 
> Personnaly if on my third injection im below 500 I will antecipate to 8 or 9 weeks. Regarding the peak from my first injection seriously doubt I was anywhere near 2000, maybe 1500 tops, but nowhere near the claimed 5000 or 7000 ng/dL by IMT (what a brain fart). 
> I know how it feels to be on cycle at 5000ng/dL ,nebido has nowhere near a peak like this.


You're right, they'll all have peaks and troughs. 

Yeah, you're never going to have peaks of 7000ng/dl, even my estimates earlier have it at 3000ng/dl tops. 

Ive no idea what my blood levels were on cycle. I couldnt get bloodwork done as my Dr doesnt know about the steroid use . It could have influenced getting a referral and TRT. Ive used a gram a week of test though, and I know that I felt amazing on that.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

You could easily hit 7,000 ng/dl with a 1,000 mg shot. It just depends on what the baseline was.

----------


## krugerr

> Currently, injectable TE is the most frequently used T formulation for T replacement in male hypogonadism (1, 5) as well as in trials for male contraception (16). However, injectable TE has pharmacokinetic disadvantages. It produces supraphysiological serum T levels during the first days after injection with a steep decrease to the lower limit of normal range within 10–14 d (1, 5), causing discomfort to the patients, which they experience as ups and downs in vigor, mood, and sexual activity. Other T formulations, such as T cypionate , with nearly identical pharmacokinetics (17) do not offer substantial advantages (5). In the present study, doses of 1000 mg TU for im injection were used. Single-dose pharmacokinetic studies have proven that a dose of 1000 mg TU in 4 ml castor oil does not result in supraphysiological serum T levels but in prolonged action with a half-life (mean ± sem) of 33.9 ± 4.9 d calculated from the T net values (11). Based on the results of these studies, a computer simulation with the T half-life of 34 d was performed, resulting in an optimal injection interval of 6 wk. Consequently, the first multiple-dose pharmacokinetic phase II study of 1000 mg TU im was planned with 6-wk injection intervals (10). The T measurement after the first injection confirmed the results of the previously reported phase I study. However, beginning with the second injection, T levels rose above normal in five patients in the TU group in the first 3 wk. After each following TU injection, more patients displayed supraphysiological T levels. These results suggest that an injection interval of 6 wk and longer might be sufficient to restore normal T levels in hypogonadal men. Therefore, the injection interval in the main study was extended to 9 wk after the third injection and to 12 wk after the fifth injection in the follow-up study. This interval was also confirmed in preliminary studies by Von Eckardstein and Nieschlag (18). Compared with TE, TU has a prolonged half-life due to the longer aliphatic and thus more hydrophobic side chain comprising 11 instead of seven carbon atoms. [/url]


Source: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...0/jc.2004-0897

That whole study is a good read!

----------


## krugerr

> Administration of TU every 12 weeks is at least as efficacious for treatment of sexual complaints of hypogonadal men as TE. These improvements are maintained in the longer-term. While being at least as effective as the standard injectable formulation, treatment with TU requires only four injections per year while maintaining serum testosterone levels within the physiological range. There are data to confirm the safety and efficacy of long-term TU therapy in hypogonadal patients treated over a period of more than eight years (18). TU appears to be a safe modality of testosterone treatment, because with the presently established dosage regimen, plasma testosterone levels remain in the physiological range. With TU, there is almost never an occurrence of polycythemia as observed in studies with the more traditional testosterone esters (19–21).


Source: http://www.eje-online.org/content/160/5/815.full.pdf

*[18] Saad F, Kamischke A, Yassin A, Zitzmann M, Schubert M, Jockenhel F, Behre HM, Gooren L & Nieschlag E. More than eight years’ hands-on experience with the novel long-acting parenteral testosterone undecanoate. Asian Journal of Andrology 2007 9 291–297

Another study of TU over long term use, and injection protocols.

----------


## krugerr

Not quite as relevant, but still worth a read as it documents further the usage and results of Nebido injections, for Female-to-Male transexuals. Initial peak TT levels were high, but they were closer to physiological levels after 12 weeks and upto 12 months. 




> In this study we observed supraphysiological levels of TT only after the first 2 wk, whereas the TT levels after 12 wk and after 12 months were lower and closer to the physiological ranges in eugonadal men. This contrasts to some extent with the values reported by von Eckardstein and Nieschlag (28) and Schubert et al. (29), which were lower after 1-wk testosterone undecanoate administration in hypogonadal men. However, the patients in the present study were younger and had a lower mean BMI, at 24 kg/m2, in comparison with 28 kg/m2 reported by other authors. In addition, the patients in the present study were biological women and might have had differences in testosterone clearance in comparison with biological men. Elbers et al. (30) also described a significant increase in BMI in female-to-male transsexuals treated with short-acting testosterone esters (7). These findings are in similar ranges to the results described here. - See more at: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/....JCsx6D3T.dpuf


Source: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...0/jc.2007-0746

----------


## krugerr

*Testosterone Buciclate* 

Not even heard of this one!





> Due to unfavorable pharmacokinetics of the available androgen esters for substitution therapy of male hypogonadism, there is a demand for new testosterone (T) preparations producing constant serum levels in the physiological range. To assess the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the new ester testosterone buciclate (TB) [20 Aet-1] in hypogonadal men a clinical phase I-study was performed. After two control examinations 8 male patients with primary hypogonadism were randomly assigned to 2 treatment groups (n = 2 x 4) given single doses of either 200 (group I) or 600 mg (group II) TB im. Blood samples were obtained 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7 days post injection and then weekly in the course of 4 months. In group I serum androgen levels did not rise to normal values. However, in group II androgens increased significantly and were maintained in the normal range up to 12 weeks with maximal serum levels of 13.1 +/- 0.9 nmol/L (mean +/- SE) in study week 6. No initial peak release of T was observed in either study group. Pharmacokinetic analysis revealed a terminal elimination t1/2 beta of 29.5 +/- 3.9 days and a mean residence time of 65.0 +/- 9.9 days in group II. In one patient in group II dihydrotestosterone levels slightly exceeded the upper normal limit during the study course. Sex hormone-binding globulin remained unchanged and estradiol serum levels never exceeded the normal range in any patient. In group II gonadotropins were significantly suppressed, whereas no change was seen in group I. A significant increase in body weight, hematological parameters, and libido/potency was observed after TB injection which was more pronounced in the higher dose group. Regardless of the dose administered, no significant change was seen in uroflow, prostate volume measured by transrectal ultrasonography, or prostate specific antigen. No adverse side-effects including changes in clinical chemistry were observed. In conclusion, single injections of 600 mg TB in hypogonadal patients show favorable pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. This new long-acting T ester is a promising new agent for substitution therapy of male hypogonadism and for male contraception.


Source: Testosterone buciclate (20 Aet-1) in hypogonadal men: pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the new long-acting androgen ester. - PubMed - NCBI

----------


## krugerr

> Long-acting testosterone esters, testosterone buciclate and undecanoate, which are intended to provide depot release throughout months rather than weeks, have been developed. Testosterone buciclate (trans-4-n-butyl cyclohexane carboxylate) is an insoluble testosterone ester in an aqueous suspension that produces prolonged testosterone release because of the steric hindrance of ester side-chain hydrolysis slowing the liberation of unesterified testosterone. Although the buciclate ester produces blood testosterone levels in the low-normal physiologic range for as many as 4 months after injection in nonhuman primates as well as in hypogonadal and eugonadal men, product development has not progressed. 
> Injectable testosterone undecanoate, an ester of an 11-carbon aliphatic fatty acid in an oil vehicle, provides a longer (~12 weeks) duration of action now widely marketed as a long acting injectable depot testosterone product. Because of its limited solubility in the castor oil vehicle, testosterone undecanoate is administered as a 1000 mg dose in a large (4ml) injection volume at 12-week intervals after the first dose and one 6 week loading dose or multiple loading doses thereafter.


Source: BOOK - Endocrinology - Adult and Pediatric

----------


## IncreaseMyT

No use arguing about the half-life, its right in the table Mr BB posted.

It cant be argued, its right there for everyone to see.

In case you guys aren't understanding what half-life means.

----------


## krugerr

> No use arguing about the half-life, its right in the table Mr BB posted.
> 
> It cant be argued, its right there for everyone to see.
> 
> In case you guys aren't understanding what half-life means.


I implicitly agree with the definition, and having an electronics degree, i completely understand it (HL's actually apply to many areas!). 

The above though is from various sources all over, and they're all saying the same thing. Some of the studies were done over long periods of time, on a large group. You cant deny those results, despite what the math that you and I agree on.

----------


## krugerr

> No use arguing about the half-life, its right in the table Mr BB posted.
> 
> It cant be argued, its right there for everyone to see.
> 
> In case you guys aren't understanding what half-life means.


It may be due to the volume injected, and therfore the bodies ability to cleave the ester and make it usable. I dont think anyone here can continue to argue a 70 (or 90!) day half life of the product. 
I think the actual discussion should be the Mean Residence Time, which is how the actual dose administered effects the hormone levels over time. Which is longer than the estimated half life.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

I can show you 1,000 sources saying Cypionate is a 14 day ester, does that make it true?

I guess you guys don't understand what a half-life is, because if you did, one look at Mr BB chart and this convo would be over.

You both are really confused, so confused I have explained this so many times I don't care to explain it anymore.

----------


## krugerr

> I can show you 1,000 sources saying Cyiponate is a 14 day ester, does that make it true?
> 
> I guess you guys don't understand what a half-life is, because if you did, one look at Mr BB chart and this convo would be over.
> 
> You both are really confused, so confused I have expanded this so many times I don't care to explain it anymore.


And you fail to see the difference between the half life of the hormone, and the effect on blood levels.
If you did understand, you'd see that my blood levels [And any client you care to blood test] dont/wont perfectly track the Nebido levels peak and decay.

----------


## krugerr

> I can show you 1,000 sources saying Cypionate is a 14 day ester, does that make it true?


I have also said that no one is disputing the half life of the product. 

We've moved onto now the physiological effect of this dose and protocol. Evidence is there saying that this dose, this injection frequency, with the agreed upon half life does keep people within range, and does not cause adverse effects through peaking and troughing too violently.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

Which I have already said if trough readings are optimal than peak are not optimal.

Bizzaro already gave proof trough readings can accumulate after a years time.

The problem is then peak levels are in toxic range.

There is a window your trying to hit, and no matter which way you slice it, if you do 10 week injections you are going to bounce outside that window, either above or below.

There is no way around it.

Thats what happens when you do not dose according to one half-life.

----------


## krugerr

> Which I have already said if trough readings are optimal than peak are not optimal.
> 
> Bizzaro already gave proof trough readings can accumulate after a years time.
> 
> The problem is then peak levels are in toxic range.
> 
> There is a window your trying to hit, and no matter which way you slice it, if you do 10 week injections you are going to bounce outside that window, either above or below.
> 
> There is no way around it.
> ...


I agree, *IF* we are soley monitoring the level of Nebido in ones system. But the above studies show that even over 8 years, TU can keep people in that Window. These arent reports just magicked up by myself. They're substantiated. 
You failed to read and/or understand the below study. 




> Posted by: Endocrine Society
> 
> Currently, injectable TE is the most frequently used T formulation for T replacement in male hypogonadism (1, 5) as well as in trials for male contraception (16). However, injectable TE has pharmacokinetic disadvantages. It produces supraphysiological serum T levels during the first days after injection with a steep decrease to the lower limit of normal range within 10–14 d (1, 5), causing discomfort to the patients, which they experience as ups and downs in vigor, mood, and sexual activity. Other T formulations, such as T cypionate , with nearly identical pharmacokinetics (17) do not offer substantial advantages (5). In the present study, doses of 1000 mg TU for im injection were used. Single-dose pharmacokinetic studies have proven that a dose of 1000 mg TU in 4 ml castor oil does not result in supraphysiological serum T levels but in prolonged action with a half-life (mean ± sem) of 33.9 ± 4.9 d calculated from the T net values (11). Based on the results of these studies, a computer simulation with the T half-life of 34 d was performed, resulting in an optimal injection interval of 6 wk. Consequently, the first multiple-dose pharmacokinetic phase II study of 1000 mg TU im was planned with 6-wk injection intervals (10). The T measurement after the first injection confirmed the results of the previously reported phase I study. However, beginning with the second injection, T levels rose above normal in five patients in the TU group in the first 3 wk. After each following TU injection, more patients displayed supraphysiological T levels. These results suggest that an injection interval of 6 wk and longer might be sufficient to restore normal T levels in hypogonadal men. Therefore, the injection interval in the main study was extended to 9 wk after the third injection and to 12 wk after the fifth injection in the follow-up study. This interval was also confirmed in preliminary studies by Von Eckardstein and Nieschlag (18). Compared with TE, TU has a prolonged half-life due to the longer aliphatic and thus more hydrophobic side chain comprising 11 instead of seven carbon atoms.
> 
> Source:http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...0/jc.2004-0897

----------


## Mr.BB

> The problem is then peak levels are in toxic range.


LOL

Toxic range is what you advice, 200mg or more once a week, most will peak over 2000ng/dL and finish at 1000, almost whole week above ranges, then they will for sure need anastrazole and have problems with H&H.

Fortunately, most guys will only inject 100 or 150mgs, and feel better, saving the rest for the ocasionnal blast, of course they will not tell the clinic/doctor about this.

IMT doesnt want to look at evidence because its not in their commercial interest.

----------


## krugerr

> LOL
> 
> Toxic range is what you advice, 200mg or more once a week, most will peak over 2000ng/dL and finish at 1000, almost whole week above ranges, then they will for sure need anastrazole and have problems with H&H.
> 
> Fortunately, most guys will only inject 100 or 150mgs, and feel better, saving the rest for the ocasionnal blast, of course they will not tell the clinic/doctor about this.
> 
> IMT doesnt want to look at evidence because its not in their commercial interest.


If I am entirely honest, debating with IMT encouraged me to further my research (see the above studies!) I spent hours today reading stuff. If nothing else, he has challenged me to improve myself. 

Im going to see doctor on tuesday, which will be 23 weeks since my first injection. With my next "12 week" injection the week after. 
Ive already decided Im going to tell him I want the booster and my next shot. Im going to bring the protocol to 10 weeks, and get weekly blood tests done. Keeping them illustrated here. 

So I'll be able to show the amount of nebido taken, protocol, TT and FT levels. Which should put the arguments of peak and trough to be for all.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> LOL
> 
> Toxic range is what you advice, 200mg or more once a week, most will peak over 2000ng/dL and finish at 1000, almost whole week above ranges, then they will for sure need anastrazole and have problems with H&H.
> 
> Fortunately, most guys will only inject 100 or 150mgs, and feel better, saving the rest for the ocasionnal blast, of course they will not tell the clinic/doctor about this.
> 
> IMT doesnt want to look at evidence because its not in their commercial interest.


Or more? Where did you get that info? Problems with HH, look at the labs in this thread.

And yes 200mg a week will put peak at 2,000 ng/dl

Your retarded protocol will put people at 3 times that FOR LONGER PERIODS.

I honestly have lost all respect for you Mr BB I think you are an utter NEWBIE.

I can't even have a conversation with you thats how far behind you are.

Like I said have fun defending *THE WORST* injection schedule *IN THE HISTORY OF TRT*

None of your unfounded claims, rhetoric or insults are going to change that.

----------


## krugerr

Sooooo... my doctors appointment this morning. 

Dr - "So your results, I noticed that the LH was low. This could be the cause of your low testosterone , so I think we maybe stop the Nebido and investigate this further."
Me - "The LH is low because im using exogenous testosterone ...My Test levels are low because you didnt give me the booster shot at 6 weeks"
Dr - "Oh right, is that so?... Well we only give the booster shot if levels are low... I think I'll refer you to the Endo"

Im getting referred back, and hes given me script to give myself a shot. What a douche. I like the guy, but he clearly has never been taught a bloody thing about HRT.

----------


## krugerr

Just picked up my injection. 
Going to inject it tomorrow morning, I've a blood test on Monday morning. That'll be 4 days after injection, so let's see what blood levels are saying then. 

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## IncreaseMyT

Well your starting at 200 so they should be roughly what BB's table show. About 1200

If your trough was at say 800 you would be starting at 4x the blood concentration.

----------


## krugerr

> Well your starting at 200 so they should be roughly what BB's table show. About 1200 If your trough was at say 800 you would be starting at 4x the blood concentration.


 yep, interesting to see how high I peak, and how fast it drops weekly.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## krugerr

Well I can tell me levels are unstable. Moody as fuck today. 
Found myself slamming the phone down and swearing excessively in the office for no good reason.

----------


## hammerheart

I feel you. I have been running TRT without AI lately, was experiencing some joint pain, the problem was the UGL test being bunk, or just underdosed (swapped the vial now).

The issue now is though joint pain is going away I'm experiencing the _worst_ brain fog ever, along with nervousness. 


I need some AI right NOW, lol

----------


## krugerr

> I feel you. I have been running TRT without AI lately, was experiencing some joint pain, the problem was the UGL test being bunk, or just underdosed (swapped the vial now). The issue now is though joint pain is going away I'm experiencing the worst brain fog ever, along with nervousness. I need some AI right NOW, lol


Ah mate I feel the brain fog. I can't concentrate at work. Last 3 weeks have been a haze!

{
ASIStreamID = 77;
}

----------


## hammerheart

Both high and low E2 can trigger brain fog, but personally I found the former to be intolerable. I'm also having low grade fever, I feel like I'm going berserk mode at any time

----------


## krugerr

> Both high and low E2 can trigger brain fog, but personally I found the former to be intolerable. I'm also having low grade fever, I feel like I'm going berserk mode at any time


I'm fine at high test or high TRT (self medicated). Low test those is debilitating.

<CALayer: 0xb221410>

----------


## Mr.BB

PHARMACOKINETICS

Absorption

Reandron 1000 is an intramuscularly administered depot preparation of testosterone undecanoate and thus circumvents the first-pass effect. Following intramuscular injection of testosterone undecanoate as an oily solution, the compound is gradually released from the depot and is almost completely cleaved by serum esterases into testosterone and undecanoic acid. An increase of serum levels of testosterone above basal values can already be measured one day after administration.

Distribution

In two separate studies, *mean maximum concentrations of testosterone of 45 and 24 nmol/L were measured about 7 and 14 days*, respectively, after single i.m. administration of 1000 mg of testosterone undecanoate to hypogonadal men. *Post-maximum testosterone levels declined with an estimated half-life of about 53 days.*In serum of men, about 98% of the circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin. Only the free fraction of testosterone is considered as biologically active. Following intravenous infusion of testosterone to elderly men, an apparent volume of distribution of about 1.0 L/kg was determined.

Metabolism

Testosterone which is generated by ester cleavage from testosterone undecanoate is metabolised and excreted the same way as endogenous testosterone. The undecanoic acid is metabolised by ß-oxidation in the same way as other aliphatic carboxylic acids.
Elimination
Testosterone undergoes extensive hepatic and extrahepatic metabolism. After the administration of radiolabelled testosterone, about 90% of the radioactivity appears in the urine as glucuronic and sulphuric acid conjugates and 6% appears in the faeces after undergoing enterohepatic circulation. Urinary products include androsterone and etiocholanolone.
Steady State Conditions
Following repeated i.m. injection of 1000 mg testosterone undecanoate to hypogonadal men using an interval of 10 weeks between two injections, *steady-state conditions were achieved between the 3rd and the 5th administration*. Mean Cmax and Cmin values of testosterone at steady-state were about 42 and 17 nmol/L respectively. Post-maximum testosterone levels in the serum decreased with a half-life of about 90 days, which corresponds to the release rate from the depot.

CLINICAL TRIALS

There were 4 pharmacokinetic studies, with 3 studies having open labelled extensions to support the dosage regimen, efficacy and safety of Reandron 1000 in the treatment of hypogonadism. *The main pharmacokinetic and efficacy parameter was serum testosterone within the eugonadal range.* The clinical studies included 72 men treated with Reandron 1000 (up to a maximum 36 weeks) while 60 men continued treatment longer term (range 18 – 33 months). *Initially, the dosage regimen investigated was 6 weeks between injections (injected into the gluteal muscle) however this time interval between injections was found to be too frequent and resulted in accumulation.* An optimal injection interval has not been defined and injections were administered in the extension phase of the clinical trials at intervals* between 10 – 12 weeks.* The possibility exists that supraphysiological serum testosterone levels may be attained even at the prescribed dosage regimen and the dosing interval *may need to be titrated accordingly*. 

Results from the relevant clinical studies are summarised below.
Research Report No. A00315
This was a pharmacokinetic study conducted with Reandron 1000 in 14 hypogonadal men. The dosage interval between injections was 6 weeks and 4 intramuscular injections were administered. The primary efficacy parameter was the maintenance of testosterone levels within the eugonadal range after the 4th injection. Other secondary parameters investigated were adverse events, local intramuscular tolerability, status of the prostate and urine flow and standard clinical chemistry parameters including serum lipids and prostate specific antigen (PSA). The pharmacokinetic outcomes are presented below as Figure 1.
150729 Reandron 1000 DS 4
Figure 1. Time course of mean serum testosterone concentration (measured and net values) with SD during treatment of 14 hypogonadal patients with 4 x 1000 mg Reandron 1000 i.m.
It was found that at the end of the treatment period, all men had serum testosterone levels above the lower limit of the eugonadal range. The 6 week time interval between injections resulted in accumulation of testosterone suggesting that a longer time interval between injections was required. The implication is that serum testosterone levels should be monitored to determine the optimum interval between injections. Local tolerability at the injection site (gluteus medius muscle) was investigated with injection site pain reported 3 times at the time of injection and 3 times between injection intervals. Apart from injection site pain and leg pain associated with the injection, redness and tenderness at the injections site were also reported.
Research Report No. A01198
This was a comparative study with Reandron 1000 and testosterone enanthate (n = 20 per group) to investigate the efficacy and safety of treatment. Reandron 1000 was administered intramuscularly at 6 week intervals for the first 3 injections and then at a 9 week interval while testosterone enanthate was administered intramuscularly at 3 week intervals over the 30 week study duration. The primary efficacy variables investigated were erythropoiesis (haemoglobin, haematocrit) and grip strength, which were similar between the groups. Multiple secondary and safety parameters were investigated including serum testosterone levels and intramuscular tolerability (see Adverse Effects). The pharmacokinetic results for both treatment groups are presented below in Figure 2. The greater fluctuation in serum testosterone for the group treated with testosterone enanthate could be due to the longer dosing interval (3 weeks) between injections.
An extension of this clinical study (Research Report No. A05965) was allowed whereby all patients (n = 36 initiated the extension and n = 32 completed the extension phase) were administered a further 8 intramuscular injections of Reandron 1000 (84 weeks). The pharmacokinetic results for serum testosterone in the extension phase are presented in Figure 3.

****

*Happy reading! 

Really dont know what you expect from this, claiming ALL the studies Kruger and I already presented are wrong, Nebido has been studied throughly, and it is in application for years. So whatever is your reason to be against it, it is just dumb.*

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> In two separate studies, *mean maximum concentrations of testosterone of 45 and 24 nmol/L were measured about 7 and 14 days*, respectively, after single i.m. administration of 1000 mg of testosterone undecanoate to hypogonadal men. *Post-maximum testosterone levels declined with an estimated half-life of about 53 days.*In serum of men, about 98% of the circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin. Only the free fraction of testosterone is considered as biologically active. Following intravenous infusion of testosterone to elderly men, an apparent volume of distribution of about 1.0 L/kg was determined.


Notice I highlighted estimated for you? The half-life is EXACTLY when HALF of the peak concentration was reached. From your previous chart that was clearly anywhere between 14-35 days. So I don't know where they got that "estimation"




> Metabolism
> 
> Testosterone which is generated by ester cleavage from testosterone undecanoate is metabolised and excreted the same way as endogenous testosterone. The undecanoic acid is metabolised by ß-oxidation in the same way as other aliphatic carboxylic acids.
> Elimination
> Testosterone undergoes extensive hepatic and extrahepatic metabolism. After the administration of radiolabelled testosterone, about 90% of the radioactivity appears in the urine as glucuronic and sulphuric acid conjugates and 6% appears in the faeces after undergoing enterohepatic circulation. Urinary products include androsterone and etiocholanolone.
> Steady State Conditions
> Following repeated i.m. injection of 1000 mg testosterone undecanoate to hypogonadal men using an interval of 10 weeks between two injections, *steady-state conditions were achieved between the 3rd and the 5th administration*. Mean Cmax and Cmin values of testosterone at steady-state were about 42 and 17 nmol/L respectively. Post-maximum testosterone levels in the serum decreased with a half-life of about 90 days, which corresponds to the release rate from the depot.


Now your saying the half life is 90 days? lol Which is it 53 or 90?

If it takes 5 x 90 days to reach steady state, you mean your telling me you think its healthy to wait 450 days for steady state to occur? haha This is a joke right?




> CLINICAL TRIALS
> 
> There were 4 pharmacokinetic studies, with 3 studies having open labelled extensions to support the dosage regimen, efficacy and safety of Reandron 1000 in the treatment of hypogonadism. *The main pharmacokinetic and efficacy parameter was serum testosterone within the eugonadal range.* The clinical studies included 72 men treated with Reandron 1000 (up to a maximum 36 weeks) while 60 men continued treatment longer term (range 18 – 33 months). *Initially, the dosage regimen investigated was 6 weeks between injections (injected into the gluteal muscle) however this time interval between injections was found to be too frequent and resulted in accumulation.* An optimal injection interval has not been defined and injections were administered in the extension phase of the clinical trials at intervals* between 10 – 12 weeks.* The possibility exists that supraphysiological serum testosterone levels may be attained even at the prescribed dosage regimen and the dosing interval *may need to be titrated accordingly*. 
> Happy reading!


Notice how they said originally the dosage schedule was every six weeks? This means they reached steady state faster, hence why less frequent injections are much better. 

Notice how they said that it was too frequent? Please explain to me, in your own words, why it is logical to extend the dosage schedule, rather than reduce the dosage and titrate down?



Happy comprehending  :Smilie: 

PS half-life is STILL 14-35 days per the chart YOU posted lololol


Still waiting for those positive labs too...........

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> "In a following study (Nieschlag et al 1999) 13 hypogonadal men received 4 intramuscular injections of TU at 6-week intervals. T serum levels were never found to lie below the lower limit of normal, *and only briefly after the 3rd and 4th injection were T serum levels above the upper limit of normal* (Figure 1) while values peak and trough levels increased over the 24-week observation period. Serum estradiol and DHT followed the same pattern, not exceeding the normal limits. In order to better establish (von Eckardstein and Nieschlag 2002) suitable injection intervals for TU, 7 hypogonadal men received injections at gradually increasing intervals between the 5th and 10th injection (starting with 6-weeks injection interval) and from then on every 12-weeks. Steady state kinetics were assessed after the 13th injection. Cmax was 32.0 ± 11.7 nmol/L and *half-life was 70.2 ± 21.1 days.**"*


So now we have - 21 days, 40 days, 53 days, 70 days and 90 days

hahahahahaha

I am confused, I am trying to figure something out. Why do all these studies have different half lives?

B B B But the study said!!! ~ Mr BB

----------


## IncreaseMyT

*KABLAM!!! And the hits just keep on coming. Add two more half life "estimations" to the list hahahah*




> Testosterone undecanoate (TU) provides testosterone (T) replacement for hypogonadal men when administered orally but requires multiple doses per day and produces widely variable serum T levels. We investigated the pharmacokinetics of a newly available TU preparation administered by intramuscular injection to hypogonadal men. Eight patients with Klinefelter's syndrome received either 500 mg or 1,000 mg of TU by intramuscular injection; 3 months later, the other dose was given to each man (except to one, who did not receive the 1,000-mg dose). Serum levels of reproductive hormones were measured at regular intervals before and after the injections. Mean serum T levels increased significantly at the end of the first week, from less than 10 nmol/L to 47.8+/-10.1 and 54.2+/-4.8 nmol/ L for the lower and higher doses, respectively. Thereafter, serum T levels decreased progressively and reached the lower-normal limit for adult men by day 50 to 60. *Pharmacokinetic analysis showed a terminal elimination half-life of 18.3+/-2.3 and 23.7+/-2.7 days and showed a mean residence time of 21.7+/-1.1 and 23.0+/-0.8 days for the lower and higher doses, respectively*. The area under the serum T concentration-time curve and the T-distribution value related to serum T concentration were significantly higher following the 1,000-mg dose than following the 500-mg dose. The 500-mg dose, when given as the second injection, yielded optimal pharmacokinetics (defined as mean peak T values not exceeding the normal range and persistence of normal levels for at least 7 weeks), suggesting that repeated injections of 500 mg at 6-8-week intervals may provide optimal T replacement. The mean serum levels of estradiol were normalized following the injections, and prolactin levels were normal throughout the study. Significant decrease of serum luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) levels was observed, with the decrease in LH levels being more pronounced. There were no significant differences in serum LH and FSH levels between the two doses. Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels before any T therapy were near the upper limit of normal for adult men and were reduced by approximately 50% just prior to the second dose of TU. The decreased SHBG levels produced by the first TU injection could have led to lower peak total T levels and to a more rapid clearance of T following the second TU injection. We conclude that single-dose injections of TU to hypogonadal men can maintain serum T concentration within the normal range for at least 7 weeks without immediately apparent side effects. It is likely that this form of T would require injections only at 6-8-week or longer intervals, not at the 2-week intervals necessary with currently used T esters (enanthate and cypionate). This injectable TU preparation may provide improved substitution therapy for male hypogonadism and, in addition, may be developed as an androgen component of male contraceptives.


A pharmacokinetic study of injectable testosterone undecanoate in hypogonadal men. - PubMed - NCBI

----------


## kelkel

Guys, regardless of who anyone feels is "winning" this debate the information being put forth is extremely interesting and helpful to all who care to read it. 
Minus some of the personal diatribes I think it's been great reading and interesting interaction between two very intelligent members.

So there.....

----------


## Mr.BB

> Guys, regardless of who anyone feels is "winning" this debate the information being put forth is extremely interesting and helpful to all who care to read it. 
> Minus some of the personal diatribes I think it's been great reading and interesting interaction between two very intelligent members.
> 
> So there.....


You call this a intelligent conversation?!?!?!

Funny that only now you talk about the personnal name calling and harassment, or "personal diatribes" as you call it. This has been going on for weeks.

Kinda tired of the whole thing.

Bye.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

Mr BB I am not sure what you mean, I was not the one who started with the name calling.

You disrespected us in the first couple days we were here, PUBLICLY. I am not sure if your aware but being a sponsor here isn't cheap. *Having a Vet member say we are incompetent on the open board without a solid reason is unacceptable.* Especially when that Vet member is dead wrong.

BUT I didn't say anything, I figured if I showed you the truth that you would realize why I say the things I have said, and maybe even appreciate it.

Not only have you insulted us multiple times, you have even made mention MANY times that we are somehow against your injection protocol for "financial" reasons. Saying that we are going to lose business over it.

This couldn't be further from the truth. I guess I made the mistake of caring about your TRT protocol.

Now that I have posted ample evidence of why I said what I said, and have proven multiple times, you still just wipe away the facts and pretend they are not there. So I am wondering if your the one with a financial motivation.

Not to mention I have more experience than anyone on this board because of the luxury I have of seeing others labs and protocols first hand on their physician monitored TRT. Unless there is someone else here that does this every single day?

So I NEVER post anything without having good reason to do so, not just on some silly article I read either, actual experience and not just with myself with about 2,000 other people as well.

So please do not play the victim card.

----------


## kelkel

> You call this a intelligent conversation?!?!?!
> 
> Funny that only now you talk about the personnal name calling and harassment, or "personal diatribes" as you call it. This has been going on for weeks.
> 
> Kinda tired of the whole thing.
> 
> 
> Bye.



Yes, I do call it an intelligent conversation between two members, barring the name calling as i pointed out. You may not respect each others opinion but none the less you both have expressed some viable points that I at least respect. I'm sure others do as well. I saw no need to speak about the name calling as you are both adults and can choose whether to participate in a thread or to leave it alone.

So yes, I respect both points of view put forth.

----------


## krugerr

> Yes, I do call it an intelligent conversation between two members, barring the name calling as i pointed out. You may not respect each others opinion but none the less you both have expressed some viable points that I at least respect. I'm sure others do as well. I saw no need to speak about the name calling as you are both adults and can choose whether to participate in a thread or to leave it alone.
> 
> So yes, I respect both points of view put forth.


Agreed here Kel. 

As I said earlier in the thread, the only way to improve existing practice is to challenge it. This discussion has really covered a lot of ground and I think contains a lot of useful content. Id think you've both contributed some some very valid arguments.

----------


## krugerr

Latest results are coming in today. 

So far these are shown below... obviously the vital ones arent in yet, but will add them as they do! Blood test was taken 4 days after injection of 1000mg/4ml Nebido (Test Undecaonate)


-----------------------------

LIPIDS

Name
Value
Range

Serum Cholestrol
5.3 mmol/L
< 5.2 mmol/L

Serum Triglycerides
2.26 mmol/L
0.28 - 2.2 mmol/L

Calculated LDL Cholesterol
3.2 mmol/L
< 3 mmol/L

Serum Cholestreol/HDL ratio
5
< 4


-----------------------------

H&H

Name
Value
Range

Haemoglobin Estimation
173 g/L
130 - 180 g/L

Haematocrit
0.48 L/L
0.38 - 0.54 L/L


-----------------------------

Testosterone 

Name
Value
Range

Serum Free Testosterone
273 pmol/L
225 - 9999 pmol/L

Serum Testosterone
10.5 nmol/L
10 - 35 nmol/L

SHBG
19 nmol/L
10 - 70 nmol/L

----------


## FakeLove

Interesting thread. I don't by any means want to hijack, but just for the reference here's my comparable labs with Nebido since day one. Hope it helps.

Baseline values:

- Age at the time 32
- BF around 20%, not more at least
- TT 13-14 nmol/l (10-38)
- Free T 211-280 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 18 (10-57)
- LH 6.7 IU/l (2.5-7)
- E2 0.1 nmol/l (<0,15)
- Hemoglobin 153 g/l (134-167)
- Hematocrit 0.45 (0.39-0.5)
- Cholesterol 5.6 nmol/l (<5)
- HDL 1.5 nmol/l (min. 1)
- LDL 3.6 nmol/l (<3)

18 days after the first 4ml injection:

- TT 30 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 589 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 17 (10-57)
- E2 0.16 nmol/l (<0.15) on Anastrozole 0,25mg e3d

A 4ml loading injection 6 weeks after the first one, blood work 11 days after:

- TT 47 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 937 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 16 (10-57)
- E2 0.19 nmol/l (<0.15) on Anastrozole 0.25mg eod (+ zinc 40mg / day)

Trough values 8 weeks after second 4ml (the loading shot) Nebido:

- TT 12 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 204 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 26 (10-57)
- E2 0.14 nmol/l (<0.15) on zero Anastrozole (surprisingly high compared to the T figures)
- Hematocrit 0.5 (0.39-0.5)
- Hemoglobin 170 g/l (134-167)

Third Nebido shot ever was 2ml (after calculations decided to start splitting). Labs three weeks after the shot:

- TT 23 nmol/l (10-38)

After almost two years with steady 1ml every 2.5 weeks Nebido protocol trough values are:

- TT 20 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 367 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 21 (10-57)
- E2 0.07 nmol/l (<0,15) on Anastrozole roughly every 36 hours, labs taken 10 hours after the dose.
- Hematocrit 0.46 (0,39-0,5)
- Hemoglobin 153 g/l (134-167) - keeping the frequency in 2.5 weeks keeps my hemo in check, with every two weeks it increases too high
- Cholesterol 4.8 nmol/l (<5)
- HDL 1.2 nmol/l (min. 1)
- LDL 3 nmol/l (<3)

----------


## krugerr

Fakelove - thanks, nice to have some comparable results. If i get time later I may well plot your levels on a graph, just for visual reference.

----------


## FakeLove

> Fakelove - thanks, nice to have some comparable results. If i get time later I may well plot your levels on a graph, just for visual reference.


No worries. Started smiling after the comments from your last visit with the doc. Sounded so familiar. I was lucky enough eventually to find a very good doc, but before that I had multiple similar conversations. At the time I had already studied quite a bit, but it was so frustrating when doctors were clueless. I still remember one who was curious to see what would happen to my LH on T when AI would be added. The she got mad at me when I said nothing will happen  :LOL:  Then she wanted me off T and said Tamoxifen would help. I told her that when my baseline LH was already on top of the scale it wouldn't help. Of course she didn't believe. It's amazing what one can experience being a trt patient in Europe...

----------


## krugerr

> No worries. Started smiling after the comments from your last visit with the doc. Sounded so familiar. I was lucky enough eventually to find a very good doc, but before that I had multiple similar conversations. At the time I had already studied quite a bit, but it was so frustrating when doctors were clueless. I still remember one who was curious to see what would happen to my LH on T when AI would be added. The she got mad at me when I said nothing will happen  Then she wanted me off T and said Tamoxifen would help. I told her that when my baseline LH was already on top of the scale it wouldn't help. Of course she didn't believe. It's amazing what one can experience being a trt patient in Europe...


Agreed, frustrating! I dont get mad with him though, by his very definition hes a general practitioner. Hes there to deal with the day to day stuff, or refer you if needed. I dont expect him to have expert knowledge on every topic. But if I were him, and a patient had a condition I knew nothing about, I would want to learn about it. If only to satisfy my own curiosity.

----------


## krugerr

Updated. Testosterone results in above post. 4 days after injection. Levels are WAY lower than predicted i think.

<CALayer: 0xd769a60>

----------


## IncreaseMyT

> Interesting thread. I don't by any means want to hijack, but just for the reference here's my comparable labs with Nebido since day one. Hope it helps.


Thank you for posting. Your lab work depicts everything i have been stressing. Nice work on educating yourself and switching to 2.5 weeks.

Seems like you have a good protocol going

----------


## krugerr

So, plotting the latest results, the graph really doesnt spike like we've been speculating. My Free came up 3 points, and my total came up 70 points. Really not much of a jump.
Ive booked a further blood test for 19th Aug, which will be 15 days after injection. Not sure whether I expect levels to be up or down from here?!

Images attached for those like me that prefer visual versions.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

Honestly it looks like your not even taking testosterone .

----------


## krugerr

> Honestly it looks like your not even taking testosterone.


Agreed. But it's 1000mg Nebido which I personally collected with a script from a pharmacy.

(
d,
2,
0,
d
)

----------


## krugerr

> Honestly it looks like your not even taking testosterone.


I'm going to get several tests before my 6 week booster. 

Any thoughts though? I'd have assumed a bigger spike regardless!

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## hammerheart

I guess it could take more than a week for the ester to be released from depot.

----------


## krugerr

> I guess it could take more than a week for the ester to be released from depot.


That could possibly be it. Although I'd still have expected higher than 273 by now!

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----------


## FakeLove

Four days might be too early to see the peak, but I guess at this point it already should show signs of improvement. There are few individuals who do not respond to Nebido though. All of them who I know the situation improved over the next shots, but their patience (understandably so) ran out and they all switched to Sustanon . Then again few individuals have been non responders to Sustanon as well. It remains mystery why this happens to some.

Even when one is a high responder like me, it can be that T metabolises very quickly as you can see from my labs. The big downside of Nebido is that the accumulation can continue / continues until a year or year and a half. 

Then there's the average who do great on it and it works like designed.

I'd say there are few options:

1. If possible take labs again 10 days after the initial injection and shoot the booster earlier if there's no signs of significant improvement. Total T should get around 30 nmol/l +-5 after the first shot at its peak (based on studies day 7). This of course requires that you get the upcoming vials bit earlier to avoid a gap later on. 
2. Same as above, but inject the booster splitted in four. I understand there's no benzyl alcohol in the vial, but there's already enough practical evidence that is quite safe to say the infection risk is the same as in any injection. Nobody of us haven't had any. The upside is that even based on pharmacokinetics it works way better that way, which is also proven in real life. If I was about to start Nebido right now I would split event the first vial. This naturally will not ever be supported by any doc.
3. If you have the possibility switching to Sustanon could be a quick fix. If this would be a possibility and your choice I wouldn't recommend even to try if the injection frequency is over 14 days. And even with 14 days I would split in two or three.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

There is no way you injected 1,000 MG of T and your levels only went from 200-273

Literally impossible.

----------


## krugerr

> There is no way you injected 1,000 MG of T and your levels only went from 200-273 Literally impossible.


Well I promise that's what's happened. Unless the NHS are selling bunk gear, I injected all 4ml, 1000mg. 
I've been here long enough that I'm sure a few can vouch I'm not here on a windup. 

FakeLove mentioned nonresponders which isn't something I'm familiar with.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## krugerr

> Four days might be too early to see the peak, but I guess at this point it already should show signs of improvement. There are few individuals who do not respond to Nebido though. All of them who I know the situation improved over the next shots, but their patience (understandably so) ran out and they all switched to Sustanon. Then again few individuals have been non responders to Sustanon as well. It remains mystery why this happens to some. Even when one is a high responder like me, it can be that T metabolises very quickly as you can see from my labs. The big downside of Nebido is that the accumulation can continue / continues until a year or year and a half. Then there's the average who do great on it and it works like designed. I'd say there are few options: 1. If possible take labs again 10 days after the initial injection and shoot the booster earlier if there's no signs of significant improvement. Total T should get around 30 nmol/l +-5 after the first shot at its peak (based on studies day 7). This of course requires that you get the upcoming vials bit earlier to avoid a gap later on. 2. Same as above, but inject the booster splitted in four. I understand there's no benzyl alcohol in the vial, but there's already enough practical evidence that is quite safe to say the infection risk is the same as in any injection. Nobody of us haven't had any. The upside is that even based on pharmacokinetics it works way better that way, which is also proven in real life. If I was about to start Nebido right now I would split event the first vial. This naturally will not ever be supported by any doc. 3. If you have the possibility switching to Sustanon could be a quick fix. If this would be a possibility and your choice I wouldn't recommend even to try if the injection frequency is over 14 days. And even with 14 days I would split in two or three.


Thanks for your feedback. I've never heard of a non-responder. I wouldn't have thought it was weight or height related? Just a genetic thing?

I'm going to take the booster at week 6. I had that blood test on day 4 and I have another booked for day 14. 

I hope that levels will pick up, and that you're right and the peak is just a little bit delayed. 

Sustanon is a no go. I don't want to inject several times a week. I would consider though changing protocol for Nebido. Assuming Endo approves haha.

----------


## macmathews

> Well I promise that's what's happened. Unless the NHS are selling bunk gear, I injected all 4ml, 1000mg. 
> I've been here long enough that I'm sure a few can vouch I'm not here on a windup. 
> 
> FakeLove mentioned nonresponders which isn't something I'm familiar with.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using App



on another note..
That's a fuck lot of test to inject all at once ..
Is that several pins ? Sounds like a sore spot to me..

BTW - I got my popcorn.. 

Mac

----------


## krugerr

> on another note.. That's a fuck lot of test to inject all at once .. Is that several pins ? Sounds like a sore spot to me.. BTW - I got my popcorn.. Mac


Nebido is a 4ml/1000mg shot. It's not so bad in glutes or quads. 

I've done 5ml shots before without issue!

----------


## krugerr

So a little light reading this morning, a lot of posts referring to TRT and 'Non-Responders' all mention Low SHBG, which I do have. Could this be because of my current HRT? Or due to underlying thyroid problems? 





> Many men have learned that SHBG binds to a little over half of their testosterone molecules and renders them "inactive". Because of this, as SHBG goes up, unbound testosterone goes down. Many physicians like to focus on free testosterone, which is your T that is not bound to SHBG or another protein called albumin. And the rule is simple: as SHBG goes down, free testosterone goes up. And free testosterone is considered the form of testosterone that is active and available to act on tissues.
> 
> 
> *NOTE:* It is actually a little more complicated than that as testosterone bound to albumin can be easily unbound and used as well. But the point remains the same.
> So clearly a man wants low SHBG, since it indicates that his free testosterone would be improved, right? 
> Wrong! As it turns out, low SHBG is often a sign of many of the worst chronic diseases that we face in modern, civlized societies. 
> 
> 
> 
> ...




source: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Low_SHBG.aspx

----------


## hammerheart

Low SHBG means you metabolize test faster, hence the need for more frequent injections.

----------


## krugerr

> Low SHBG means you metabolize test faster, hence the need for more frequent injections.


19nmol/L

Well I guess that could possibly account for something.

----------


## hammerheart

> 19nmol/L
> 
> Well I guess that could possibly account for something.


Well for example mine was 40 and perhaps that's why I still had 800ng/dl at week 10.

19 is normal/ok btw

----------


## FakeLove

SHBG tends to rise when one gets older, so being young and having a low-normal SHBG I wouldn't see as an issue. I've had it always too and I don't have any of those mentioned conditions. 

I'm not trying to confuse you or anything, but I'm not joking either when I said that I've run into a few individuals who ended up having low-normal TT figures after a 4ml Nebido shot at peak. There was an increase in their figures, but no nearly enough to even closely last the first 6 weeks. It's an endless road of blind guessing to try to figure out why it happened, but for a couple fellow patients it did happen. There was a long discussion about it at the time and no conclusion whatsoever.

But check the labs and see it from there (and start splitting  :Wink/Grin: )

----------


## krugerr

> *What about HRT and Low SHBG?*The concerns here are that 1) adding HRT may lower an already low SHBG even further, 2) may sidetrack a man from dealing with underlying medical issues and 3) will simply create an overabundance of free estradiol.
> Now I definitely agree with 2. All reasonable underlying issues should be tracked and investigatedby by or with your doctor. Argument 1, however, may be weak. To test this hypothesis, it would be best to look for research with participants that are likely to have low SHBG. One such study was done on senior men with Metabolic Syndrome (prediabetes) and the researchers found that giving these men testosterone gel did indeed lower their SHBG a little. However, this was for a very small net change in testosterone. [12]
> 
> 
> The same study boosted men's testosteorne much more significantly with testosterone undecanoate and actually found that the particpants' SHBG rose. Thus in this case, the testosterone actually helped. Why did the undecanoate do the trick where the gel did not? The reason is probably the fact that the undecanoate gave over a 100% increase in testosterone and testeosterone lowers insulin .
> 
> 
> As far as #3, one has to realize that the difference in, say, free testosterone from low to midrange SHBG is not that great. For example, let's say you were a lowish testosteorne guy with total testosterone of 400 ng/dl and had SHBG of 32, which is a very "normal amount". That SHBG of 32 nmol/l would give you a free testosterone level of 8.31 ng/dl. A man with SHBG of 20 and total T of 400 would have free testosterone of 10.5. 
> This is an increase of 26% in free T. Now this is a bump, admittedly, but it is not the kind of bump that is going to make that much difference. Thus SHBG does matter, but it is not the force of nature that many men think it is when it comes to elavating testosterone levels . However, it does matter in the sense that it can foreshadown many medical conditions that need to be dealt with.
> ...




So because my SHBG is so low, I have should have more Free T. However both Total, and Free testosterone were low, alongside the SHBG

----------


## krugerr

> Well for example mine was 40 and perhaps that's why I still had 800ng/dl at week 10.
> 
> 19 is normal/ok btw


The range is 10 - 70, So I just assume mine was "low". If its a normal reading then I can discount doing too much more research into that :P

----------


## FakeLove

Yes SHBG affects to free T because it binds it, but it's in a relation to the total T still. Free T can be calculated by using an Andersson formula:

Free T (pmol/l) = Total T (nmol/l) x (2.28-1.38 x log (SHBG (nmol/l)/10)) x 10

----------


## krugerr

> SHBG tends to rise when one gets older, so being young and having a low-normal SHBG I wouldn't see as an issue. I've had it always too and I don't have any of those mentioned conditions. 
> 
> *I'm not trying to confuse you or anything*, but I'm not joking either when I said that I've run into a few individuals who ended up having low-normal TT figures after a 4ml Nebido shot at peak. There was an increase in their figures, but no nearly enough to even closely last the first 6 weeks. It's an endless road of blind guessing to try to figure out why it happened, but for a couple fellow patients it did happen. There was a long discussion about it at the time and no conclusion whatsoever.
> 
> But check the labs and see it from there (and start splitting )


Quote the opposite my friend. I have no pretences over my level of knowledge. There are many many (x10^8) things I do not know. 

Despite the differences between BB and IMT, they have both put forward lots of knowledge into this thread, and its now packed with information. All of which is new to me, and therefore educational to myself, and to others starting their path, or just wanting to learn. 

Its a curious thing that such cases exist. Clearly im fitting into that catagory. I'll keep all my blood levels posted up so those wishing to follow and comment can do so. 
If nothing else, this whole thing might save the next guy some trouble.

----------


## krugerr

> Yes SHBG affects to free T because it binds it, but it's in a relation to the total T still. Free T can be calculated by using an Andersson formula:
> 
> Free T (pmol/l) = Total T (nmol/l) x (2.28-1.38 x log (SHBG (nmol/l)/10)) x 10


Yeah Ive used a couple of Calculators, but I didnt have the Albumin to get it exactly right.
But I have the Free Test reading anyway, from blood tests.

----------


## SlimmerMe

Hey Krugerr. I checked out your BW and am curious if you plan to get your TSH to an optimal level versus a normal level. Right now your TSH reads 3.5. I have a hunch you'd have more energy if you got closer to 2.0 or even 1.5.

Remember when reading TSH levels, the numbers are inverted. Low means high and high means low. I know when I got my levels closer to 1.5, I felt better. The doc was fine with normal. I prefer optimal.

Something to think about.

SM

----------


## macmathews

> Hey Krugerr. I checked out your BW and am curious if you plan to get your TSH to an optimal level versus a normal level. Right now your TSH reads 3.5. I have a hunch you'd have more energy if you got closer to 2.0 or even 1.5.
> 
> Remember when reading TSH levels, the numbers are inverted. Low means high and high means low. I know when I got my levels closer to 1.5, I felt better. The doc was fine with normal. I prefer optimal.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> SM


 Are you on thyroid meds ?
From my personal experience my TSH was at 1.063 before TRT.. After TRT it was recorded as high as 2.63
I understand that is common with exogenous test

----------


## krugerr

> Hey Krugerr. I checked out your BW and am curious if you plan to get your TSH to an optimal level versus a normal level. Right now your TSH reads 3.5. I have a hunch you'd have more energy if you got closer to 2.0 or even 1.5. Remember when reading TSH levels, the numbers are inverted. Low means high and high means low. I know when I got my levels closer to 1.5, I felt better. The doc was fine with normal. I prefer optimal. Something to think about. SM


Thank you SM. 

I've currently have no idea how to change TSH reading. I'll look into it later when I'm home. Thanks for the comment and feedback! 
 :Smilie: 

I am seriously lethargic at the moment. I put that down to just the Test levels.

<_CFXNotificationTokenRegistration: 0x10438810>

----------


## krugerr

> Are you on thyroid meds ? From my personal experience my TSH was at 1.063 before TRT.. After TRT it was recorded as high as 2.63 I understand that is common with exogenous test


No thyroid meds. But they're cheap as chips. I've got a years supply in the cupboard!

<_CFXNotificationTokenRegistration: 0x10438810>

----------


## SlimmerMe

re: MacMathews question. Yes. But note, I'm also a female. I'm on BHRT ---not TRT. aka: little t.

----------


## SlimmerMe

> Thank you SM. 
> 
> I've currently have no idea how to change TSH reading. I'll look into it later when I'm home. Thanks for the comment and feedback! 
> 
> 
> I am seriously lethargic at the moment. I put that down to just the Test levels.


TSH levels are tricky. Main thing is to find that sweet spot-- and most docs, well, they just don't pay much attention to TSH levels. As a matter of fact, there were so many complaints the labs re-structured the levels to help a bit. 

There's a big difference between 3.5 and 1.5. Can make all the difference in the world re: energy.

I prefer desiccated porcine thyroid. Some do well on the synthetic, but I like my t3, t4 combo. Works like magic. To me.

----------


## hammerheart

I might add that some hashimoto's people won't feel well until TSH is about 1, just because higher TSH means heightened autoimmune reaction.

Myself I'm on synthetic T4-T3 combination.

I was on a huge LT4 dose (150mcg) before adding 25mcg T3 and now I'm feeling a little hyper (tachycardia most of the day). I guess I will need to start taper LT4, but not before actual bloodwork is made, in September.

----------


## krugerr

> TSH levels are tricky. Main thing is to find that sweet spot-- and most docs, well, they just don't pay much attention to TSH levels. As a matter of fact, there were so many complaints the labs re-structured the levels to help a bit. 
> 
> There's a big difference between 3.5 and 1.5. Can make all the difference in the world re: energy.
> 
> I prefer desiccated porcine thyroid. Some do well on the synthetic, but I like my t3, t4 combo. Works like magic. To me.


Thanks so much SM for stopping by! I've got blood tests in a week, i'll get this tested and see where I am at.  :Smilie:

----------


## krugerr

> I might add that some hashimoto's people won't feel well until TSH is about 1, just because higher TSH means heightened autoimmune reaction.
> 
> Myself I'm on synthetic T4-T3 combination.
> 
> I was on a huge LT4 dose (150mcg) before adding 25mcg T3 and now I'm feeling a little hyper (tachycardia most of the day). I guess I will need to start taper LT4, but not before actual bloodwork is made, in September.


I'll read up on Hashimotos when I am in the office tomorrow. Another new one for me to learn about!  :Wink: 

Ive previously used T3 and T4 during cycling etc. I did always feel good on it, but maybe I never made the connection because I was also on cycle. Be interested to hear your results as well bro.

----------


## SlimmerMe

> I might add that some hashimoto's people won't feel well until TSH is about 1, just because higher TSH means heightened autoimmune reaction.
> 
> Myself I'm on synthetic T4-T3 combination.
> 
> I was on a huge LT4 dose (150mcg) before adding 25mcg T3 and now I'm feeling a little hyper (tachycardia most of the day). I guess I will need to start taper LT4, but not before actual bloodwork is made, in September.


Yeah. The only thing about this is, as in 1.0, I agree in many ways but something to keep in mind is, going under 1.5 could, note "could" could start to reverse and go into hyper mode.

It's a fine dance. 




> Thanks so much SM for stopping by! I've got blood tests in a week, i'll get this tested and see where I am at.


You're welcome, krugerr.




> I'll read up on Hashimotos when I am in the office tomorrow. Another new one for me to learn about! 
> 
> Ive previously used T3 and T4 during cycling etc. I did always feel good on it, *interesting* but maybe I never made the connection because I was also on cycle. Be interested to hear your results as well bro.


Many people who are hypo have Hashimotos. When you do your bw, get a TPO test. This will let you know.

Also. I tried the t3,t4, synthroid , cytomel combo but found the natural works better. 

We all react differently to different fillers, etc. The main thing is to find what works.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

There is just no way to inject that much T and your TT levels do not go up. There are only a few explanations for this and it has to be one of them.

Meds are not T

Blood test error (this happens more than you think)

You have extremely low levels of the esterase types in your body that is responsible for cleaving the ester from the T. I don't even know if this is possible. I have seen some guys score low and wondered if that was it but you only moved 73 points. I am talking about someone supposing to be at 800 and only 550. Not only moving 73 points.

You could have moved that much naturally without injecting anything, just a normal swing. 

I have seen the "non-responders" but their T levels go up. They just don't feel better. This is almost always because of a really low SHBG, which is also why you don't want to inject too much T at once.

T injections are the best of all applications at increasing Free T.

----------


## krugerr

> There is just no way to inject that much T and your TT levels do not go up. There are only a few explanations for this and it has to be one of them.
> 
> Meds are not T
> 
> Blood test error (this happens more than you think)
> 
> You have extremely low levels of the esterase types in your body that is responsible for cleaving the ester from the T. I don't even know if this is possible. I have seen some guys score low and wondered if that was it but you only moved 73 points. I am talking about someone supposing to be at 800 and only 550. Not only moving 73 points.
> 
> You could have moved that much naturally without injecting anything, just a normal swing. 
> ...


Hmm, but a whole series of blood test errors keeping my levels low?

See what you're saying though, even as a non-responder the levels would peak, I just wouldnt benefit as much from it, or feel like I should.

----------


## IncreaseMyT

I doubt a whole bunch of errors.

Something is up though.

----------


## krugerr

> I doubt a whole bunch of errors. Something is up though.


If there wasn't a big ol' pond between us. I'd come in for testing haha. 

Agreed. Something is up. Still feeling like poop.

----------


## krugerr

So the results are in for last week. Dr has called me in to discuss Cholesterol. 
It appears my Test levels are climbing still. Ive definitely got a little bit of libido back !!!


-----------------------------

LIPIDS

Name
Value
Range

Serum Cholestrol
5.6* mmol/L
< 5.2 mmol/L

Serum Triglycerides
1.96 mmol/L
0.28 - 2.2 mmol/L

Calculated LDL Cholesterol
3.6 mmol/L
< 3 mmol/L

Serum Cholestreol/HDL ratio
5.1
< 4


-----------------------------

H&H

Name
Value
Range

Haemoglobin Estimation
176 g/L
130 - 180 g/L

Haematocrit
0.53 L/L
0.38 - 0.54 L/L


-----------------------------

Testosterone 

Name
Value
Range

Serum Free Testosterone
382 pmol/L
225 - 9999 pmol/L

Serum Testosterone
15.6 nmol/L
10 - 35 nmol/L

SHBG
19 nmol/L
10 - 70 nmol/L

----------


## krugerr

SlimmerMe - TSH has fallen now to 2.02, which is a lot better I think. Im feeling better overall. 

IMT - Just had my script approved for my 6 week booster. Which is the 15th Sept. 

My cholesterol has climbed a lot. Is this because of the TRT, or should I be concerned with these levels? 
Also my H&H readings are at the top of the normal ranges, does anyone have thoughts/comments on these?

I have another blood test in two weeks (5th Sept) which should give us an idea of how the TRT in has effected me before the booster.

----------


## marcus300

Ive been on various T therapies over the last 11yrs and by FAR the best is Nebido, ive been using it for around 6 years my endo at the time who put me on it was one of the best in the UK said Nebido is the future of testosterone therapies. There are have been 2 yrs, 5 yrs and 8 yr studies done on it against all other therapies including TE and Nebido comes out on top every time. Ive posted links to these studies somewhere on here but haven't got time to find them.

You need to booster shot imho and it takes a few months before everything settles down into perfection but once it does injecting every 10-12 weeks is a breeze. Ive never felt better on an other therapy but make no mistake it isn't a life changer straight away it takes a few injection but once everything gets dialled in its sure is a life changer.

In all honesty it makes me laugh at the people who knock Nebido, maybe the don't sell it? maybe it isn't a big money earner as some of the Chinese peptide crap what gets knocked out to members who don't know the difference or even the UGL T but hey all I am saying, if anyone gets offered to try Nebido try it because without doubt its a life changer and is a remarkable therapy. If its not for you after a few months just go back to what works but its really funny see people get so annoyed when you mention something what doesn't fit into their generic Chinese protocols. 

I've got a thread on Nebido and many other posts where ive posted studies what back the therapy up against TU and other therapies but at the moment I am too busy to search for them.


edit one study ive just found, there are many more

_Largest international trial indicates that testosterone replacement therapy is an effective and well tolerated treatment for male hypogonadism in daily clinical practice

IPASS: Final data from the worldwide largest study of the tolerability and effectiveness of injectable testosterone undecanoate (TU) for the treatment of male hypogonadism involving 1493 patients. M Zitzmann, JU Hanisch, A Mattern, M Maggi. A presentation to the Men’s Health World Congress, 2010.


Key Points
Restoring plasma testosterone levels to normal alleviated the symptoms of testosterone deficiency1
The percentage of patients who reported “low” or “very low” levels of sexual desire/libido decreased from 64% at baseline to 10% after four TU injection intervals1
At baseline, 67% of patients had moderate, severe or extremely severe erectile dysfunction (ED), this decreased to 19% after TU therapy.1 61% of patients with some degree of ED reported a decrease in severity2
TU therapy markedly improved patients ability to concentrate1 and their reported mood1
89% of patients were “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with TU therapy2
The mean waist circumference in patients decreased from 100 cm to 96 cm1 
Intramuscular TU was well tolerated and safe for treatment of male hypogonadism in daily clinical practice, irrespective of ethnic background1: adverse events and adverse drug reactions were recorded for 12% and 6% of patients respectively2. These were mostly mild to moderate in severity2
The most commonly reported ADRs were increase in hematocrit, increase in PSA and injection site pain (all 
No case of prostate cancer was observed2


What is known

Systematic reviews of randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials of testosterone in men, including older men (aged 60 years and over) and middle-aged men, with sexual dysfunction and hypogonadism have shown large favourable effects on libido, but moderate effects on satisfaction with erectile function.3,4,5,6,7 

Outcomes in clinical trials of the effect of testosterone treatment on mood have varied. However, there has been evidence that testosterone treatment results in improvements in mood, particularly in older men with hypogonadism.8,9 

The benefits of testosterone treatment on body composition have consistently been demonstrated in clinical studies of testosterone therapy in hypogonadal men or men with borderline low testosterone levels.3,9,10,11,12 

What this study adds

The effectiveness of testosterone, shown previously in randomised placebo-controlled trials, has now been confirmed in a large, unselected patient cohort drawn from clinical practices around the world. 

Clinically relevant and beneficial efficacy has been documented especially regarding sexual function and waist circumference.2 Mean body weight in patients also decreased under TU therapy.1 By the end of the trial those men reporting high or very high levels of sexual desire increased to 61% from a 10% baseline.

At baseline 36 per cent of men reported a “very negative” or “negative” mood. This fell to 5 per cent after the fifth injection.

References

1. IPASS Nebido: Final results from the largest international trial in testosterone substitution. A presentation to the Men’s Health World Congress, 2010. M Zitzmann, JU Hanisch, A Mattern, M Maggi 
2. IPASS: Final Data from the Worldwide Largest Study of the Tolerability and Effectiveness of Injectable Testosterone Undecanoate for the Treatment of Male Hypogonadism Involving 1493 Patients. M Zitzmann, JU Hanisch, A Mattern, M Maggi. Undated abstract 
3. Wang, C., E. Nieschlag, R. Swerdloff, et al. Investigation, treatment and monitoring of late-onset hypogonadism in males: ISA, ISSAM, EAU, EAA and ASA recommendations. Eur J Endocrinol 2008, 159(5): 507-514 
4. Bayer Pharma AG. Global Nebido Satisfaction Study 2009 
5. Boloña ER, Uraga MV, Haddad RM, et al. Testosterone use in men with sexual dysfunction: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized placebo-controlled trials. Mayo Clin Proc 2007; 82(1): 20-8 
6. Gruenewald DA, Matsumoto AM. Testosterone supplementation therapy for older men: potential benefits and risks. J Am Geriatr Soc 2003; 51(1): 101-15 
7. Isidori AM, Giannetta E, Greco EA, et al. Effects of testosterone on body composition, bone metabolism and serum lipid profile in middle-aged men: a meta-analysis. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 2005; 63(3): 280-93 
8. Wang C, Alexander G, Berman N, et al. Testosterone replacement therapy improves mood in hypogonadal men--a clinical research center study. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1996; 81(10): 3578-83 
9. Wang C, Cunningham G, Dobs A, et al. Long-term testosterone gel (AndroGel ) treatment maintains beneficial effects on sexual function and mood, lean and fat mass, and bone mineral density in hypogonadal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2004; 89(5): 2085-98 
10. Bhasin S, Cunningham GR, Hayes FJ, et al. Testosterone therapy in adult men with androgen deficiency syndromes: an endocrine society clinical practice guideline. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2006; 91(6): 1995-2010 
11. Qoubaitary A, Swerdloff RS, Wang C. Advances in male hormone substitution therapy. Expert Opin Pharmacother 2005; 6(9): 1493-506 
12. Stanworth RD, Jones TH. Testosterone for the aging male; current evidence and recommended practice. Clin Interv Aging 2008; 3(1): 25-44_

----------


## hammerheart

TU is indeed the future of TRT and it's great, but Nebido not so much. It's dirty expensive, and the 10-14 week protocol won't work for anyone.

----------


## marcus300

> TU is indeed the future of TRT and it's great, but Nebido not so much. It's dirty expensive, and the 10-14 week protocol won't work for anyone.


I guess that depends where you live for me its less than £10 for the prescription and I am sure it wont work for everyone, just like TE didn't work for me but it does for other. Use what works

----------


## Mr.BB

> TU is indeed the future of TRT and it's great, but Nebido not so much. It's dirty expensive, and the 10-14 week protocol won't work for anyone.


I have to agree on the price. The local NHS doesnt do co-payment on TU, so I have to pay 100€ with every shot.

Maybe we can get a generic some time soon.

----------


## marcus300

> I have to agree on the price. The local NHS doesnt do co-payment on TU, so I have to pay 100€ with every shot.
> 
> Maybe we can get a generic some time soon.


Less than £10 a shot here on prescription so not bad every 11 wks. 100€ isnt that bad every 3 months.

I have noticed it for sale on some online sites but it works out cheaper giving your 100€ .

----------


## hammerheart

That's what I hope for. In some regions of Italy low t is recognized as a chronic condition and Nebido is absolutely free, but I needed to pay 160 euros for a single shot.

----------


## krugerr

Yeah over here in the U.K. It's subsidised. It's £8.20 per NHS prescription regardless what it is I believe.

post_timestamp

----------


## marcus300

> Nebido is a 4ml/1000mg shot. It's not so bad in glutes or quads. 
> 
> I've done 5ml shots before without issue!


Ive done 4ml nebido in my bicep without any issues  :Wink: 

Just from reading this thread makes me really start posting the studies but I can see its all going to go the wrong way seeing that its the site sponsor so all I am going to say just like many on here is my opinion - 

There are studies all over the internet and on the Nebido site what were conducted over 2yrs, 4,yrs,6 yrs and 8 yrs all showing extremely stable and excellent values in comparison against other therapies. Everyone is different and different protocols lengths are needed but its a long term therapy what needs to be used before its fully running at peak so you can get everything dialled in. Most who use it don't need to use of an AI and in Europe its taking the TRT industry by storm. Again for me its by far the best therapy and from listening to my endo at the time and all the studies its sounds remarkable and after many years of taking it I would say it is outstanding.

I don't really want to have a discussion with certain posters here because their attitude stinks on the posts ive seen from them when someone disagrees with those in question and to be honest and its a company what sells T treatment via a compounding pharmacy and also other products like LR3 which are completely a waste of time and are the biggest con in the world and ive noticed you sell other peptides which I wont comment on but I am tempted to. But with respect I would rather take and listen advice from qualified people and a leading pharmaceutical brand like Bayer than someone who sells what they do.  :Smilie: 

I am going to leave it at that because they are sponsor and no doubt I will get my bottom spanked by admin if I do some digging further into the business and compounds you push. That's my opinion just like their opinion on Nebdio's protocol. Each to their own and I say if anyone has the chance of using or trying TU for any length of time using the protocols advise by Bayer you should, if its not for you then just go back to what works best for you but over here in the UK its called the magic of T treatment. I also must say I didn't really have a problem with Test E for my trt when I was using it but I much prefer injecting less and getting better performance and I would say I am definably more stable with TU, each to their own but for now I better sneak off before someone complains and I'm put on the naughty step 

I'm out of here and very happy TRT users  :Wink:

----------


## krugerr

Always grateful Marcus for usersand knowledgable members to contribute. As you can see my levels are awful and I'm not responding as you'd expect. 

Do you recall how you responded on your first injections?

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## marcus300

> Always grateful Marcus for usersand knowledgable members to contribute. As you can see my levels are awful and I'm not responding as you'd expect. 
> 
> Do you recall how you responded on your first injections?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using App


you should follow the booster shot at 6 week and then every 10 wks and go from there, sometimes in some people it can take a few shots to fully reap the benefits. Pm me mate because I'm out of here now  :Wink:  I can see this thread going wrong and I don't want that but you need to follow the protocol from Bayer. This isn't a protocol what happens with the first shot it takes time its a long ester and you need to attack it like the manufacturers stated.

----------


## Todd Thomas

Marcus what a joke LOL

You finally decide to throw in your two cents!!! Where has your opinion been this whole time?

My attitude was bad? Thats really funny, I pointed out the stupidity of the 10 week protocol, proved it 6 different ways and even used the data in the studies you guys posted to show how stupid it is LOL

It has nothing to do with someone "not selling it" Its a downright retarded protocol.

This isn't the first time though you have tried to tarnish my reputation because you couldn't handle being proven wrong.

STILL no one has posted positive labs on the program, NOT ONE PERSON

You know what though? My bad for giving a damn about what your doing to yourself. Maybe next time I will just not speak the truth so I don't hurt your feelings.

I mean seriously, you posted a survey on men taking TU that were asked yes or no questions......... This is a joke right?

----------


## marcus300

> Marcus what a joke LOL
> 
> You finally decide to throw in your two cents!!! Where has your opinion been this whole time?
> 
> My attitude was bad? Thats really funny, I pointed out the stupidity of the 10 week protocol, proved it 6 different ways and even used the data in the studies you guys posted to show how stupid it is LOL
> 
> It has nothing to do with someone "not selling it" Its a downright retarded protocol.
> 
> This isn't the first time though you have tried to tarnish my reputation because you couldn't handle being proven wrong.
> ...


IMT you posted under one of your other accounts what you try and fool the members with lmfao. There are thousands of studies contradicting everything you said but I am on my mobile so why not view nebido site under research and they are all there.

You make accounts up to promote your con site selling junk peptides and T what comes from a compound pharmacy and you knock Bayer lol and not only that you have that many accounts everyone can see what your trying to do which I don't blame you.

All I am saying is people try it, if you don't like it go back to a proper T company selling pharmacy grade T and not a site selling junk peps

I wont be opening this thread anymore because Todd or who every posts promoting IMT is a joke imho, again just my opinion just like yours.

Anyone wants any studies or more info pm me and I will forward them via pm but you cant discuss anything with someone who sells what this sponsor sells imho,

I'm out, happy trt hunting guys 

best of luck

----------


## Todd Thomas

Junk Peps LOL

I know people going to the Olympia in a couple weeks saying its the best thing they have ever tried!

Your a joke Marcus. Always have been.

Yea I am really trying to "fool" people with the name Todd Thomas !!!

You can't get mad all you want. I am not the one who is mad.

You and your lackeys can post whatever you want, there is nothing you can do to tarnish our reputation. NOTHING.

----------


## NACH3

> Junk Peps LOL
> 
> I know people going to the Olympia in a couple weeks saying its the best thing they have ever tried!
> 
> Your a joke Marcus. Always have been.
> 
> Yea I am really trying to "fool" people with the name Todd Thomas !!!
> 
> You can't get mad all you want. I am not the one who is mad.
> ...


I'm not getting involved but if your saying those peps are as good as you think/say - I'd be damn sure nothing can come back and bite me(you) in the ass(i mean that is all we have imho) is our word and our Balls.. That's just my .02 and I'd much rather run RX GH  :Smilie: 

Now back to Krugerr...  :Smilie:  sorry mate I wish you all the best 
Cheers

----------


## Todd Thomas

Yea no shet sherlock who wouldn't? LOL Is that even a question?

That is if we are talking about real rhGH and not the chinese GARBAGE.

Marcus feel free to jump in here because I have known you for 5 years and I KNOW FOR A FACT you are not a fan of chinese GH. If you want me to dig up your post's I can do that.

I have watched people gain 17 pounds on our peptide combinations. I have watched people lose 65 pounds and get their natural TT levels over 900 on our peptide combinations alone. I got the labs to prove it too.

So forgive me if I oppose your PATHETIC accusations.

----------


## Todd Thomas

And furthermore Marcus you of all people should be ASHAMED of yourself for even considering an every 10 week injection protocol, your supposedly an "expert" on this stuff right?

----------


## NACH3

> *Yea no shet sherlock who wouldn't? LOL Is that even a question?
> *
> That is if we are talking about real rhGH and not the chinese GARBAGE.
> 
> *I would never even consider that shit! RX only... I believe I said that as well! Again changing topic for what reason... You think I don't know what the damn Chinese do... They counterfeit EVERYTHING! LOL* 
> 
> Marcus feel free to jump in here because I have known you for 5 years and I KNOW FOR A FACT you are not a fan of chinese GH. If you want me to dig up your post's I can do that.
> 
> I have watched people gain 17 pounds on our peptide combinations. I have watched people lose 65 pounds and get their natural TT levels over 900 on our peptide combinations alone. I got the labs to prove it too.
> ...


You know Todd - I was being respectful and your just being an asshole now! 

Why do you constantly get sooo defensive or take it as an attack when of if someone disagrees w/you??? Your arrogant, can't stand to have a 'conversation' as all you ever do is start to SHOUT LOUDER AND LOUDER!! I haven't had a problem with you until now... You need to learn to be respectful as well as having a 'proper' attitude... Everyone sees how defensive and how you YELL TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS LOL

Look man it's actually sound advice to follow if you think about it... You are a business man correct?!

Now Back to the Top... For Krugerr!

----------


## Todd Thomas

> You know Todd - I was being respectful and your just being an asshole now! 
> [/SIZE]


OH PLEASE LOL

You were respectful? Listen NACH go play games with someone who doesn't know exactly what you are doing.

I am really sick of everyone telling me how crappy IMT is but saying it in a "nice" way so that makes it ok right? Funny how all the people saying this don't use IMT?

STRANGE

I kind of expected it though. Anytime I have ever challenged Marcus he gets all butt hurt right away and shuts down. He even banned the IMT account so he could post his pathetic survey with impunity LOL

How dare someone challenge what he or one of the other vets say here right? The vets here must be right because they are vets right?

Even though every single post I have made has been substantiated with the king of the 10 week protocol himself Mr BB, studies.

Its honestly so atrocious only an idiot would not realize there is an ulterior motive here.

----------


## NACH3

> OH PLEASE LOL
> 
> You were respectful? *Listen NACH go play games with someone who doesn't know exactly what you are doing.*
> 
> *It seems your the one who enjoys the games?! Sorry about that*
> 
> *I am really sick of everyone telling me how crappy IMT is but saying it in a "nice" way so that makes it ok right? Funny how all the people saying this don't use IMT?*
> 
> *WHAAAAAAT?!?! I've not once sai ANYTHING regarding IMT(if you look when you first came on here I was very much liking the things I hear from IMT - where in the hell did you get this from my posts and turn it around to what it is?!?!*
> ...


If you need to Take this to pm my man - or if you can't pm yet w/this account feel free to email me... But I will not derail this thread any further... It's the OPs thread and he's trying to get to steady state levels which we've all said it does take time...

----------


## Todd Thomas

Yea it takes time cause the injection schedule is retarded!

----------


## Todd Thomas

And then try to say this is about money. Give me a break we can't take clients across the pond.

We, unlike the so called "vets" here, care about more than just money. This all started over his health, and his poor blood work numbers.

Escalating HCT

----------


## NACH3

> *And then try to say this is about money.*  Give me a break we can't take clients across the pond.
> 
> *^^* *again Whaaaaaat?! When and where Todd - it seems your pulling sh!t outta your arse and then going backwards to what you assumed people said in posts... Your in a very competive industry and seem to be doing great... Why all the hostility...*
> 
> *We, unlike the so called "vets" here, care about more than just money.*  This all started over his health, and his poor blood work numbers.
> 
> Escalating HCT


Now your going after the Vets(in a way to make it look as if they/we(staff) don't care) Please man stop with BS! Every staff member we have has the members' best interest at hand, You just can't take anyone disagreeing with you... Period! Now let's please get back on topic...

----------


## BG

> We, unlike the so called "vets" here, care about more than just money.


You better get your facts straight before you go running your big mouth anymore.We dont get a dime, so money is far from on our thoughts and we cant ban accounts so talk to admin. Your a drug dealer selling illegal peps for MONEY, not caring for peoples health. Your just a business man thats why your so pissed, your losing money with all you dumb antics. Most of them are not FDA approved so how do you know they are healthy? A pro going to the Olympia says blah blah blah, sure he can tell they are working alone with 3000gs of juice, 30 ius of slin and 20 of gh he's taking also. Your a fool and every post you prove it. I see a jail cell in the future for you.

----------


## Mr.BB

> ... the king of the 10 week protocol himself Mr BB...


Fack... I really got under this guy skin... He needs to call me into every discussion.. ffs

----------


## marcus300

> OH PLEASE LOL
> 
> You were respectful? Listen NACH go play games with someone who doesn't know exactly what you are doing.
> 
> I am really sick of everyone telling me how crappy IMT is but saying it in a "nice" way so that makes it ok right? Funny how all the people saying this don't use IMT?
> 
> STRANGE
> 
> I kind of expected it though. Anytime I have ever challenged Marcus he gets all butt hurt right away and shuts down. He even banned the IMT account so he could post his pathetic survey with impunity LOL
> ...


I think your suffering from Delusional disorder because ive never spoken to you except once over a mentally disturbed member you need to watch out for, other than that your claims are false. Drop you peptide use and things may get better 

Like ive said this is defo my last post here because it looks like everything has been resolved  :Smilie:

----------


## marcus300

> You better get your facts straight before you go running your big mouth anymore.We dont get a dime, so money is far from on our thoughts and we cant ban accounts so talk to admin. Your a drug dealer selling illegal peps for MONEY, not caring for peoples health. Your just a business man thats why your so pissed, your losing money with all you dumb antics. *Most of them are not FDA approved so how do you know they are healthy*? A pro going to the Olympia says blah blah blah, sure he can tell they are working alone with 3000gs of juice, 30 ius of slin and 20 of gh he's taking also. Your a fool and every post you prove it. I see a jail cell in the future for you.


Indeed, laughable when we try our best to steer our member in a safe environment, looks like its been sorted out and if it hasn't, Todd send me an email and I'll put you straight

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## krugerr

Well that escalated quickly... 

Thanks guys for stopping in at least! Ive got a blood test next week, so I'll keep y'all posted. Still feeling hormonal.

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## krugerr

So results are coming in for yesterday. four and a half weeks after injection. H&H has dropped slowly since injection, Cholesterol hasnt really moved too much. 

-----------------------------

*LIPIDS*

Name
Value
Range

Serum Cholesterol
4.9 mmol/L
<5.2 mmol/L

Serum Triglycerides
1.98 mmol/L
0.28 - 2.2 mmol/L

Serum HDL Cholesterol
1 mmol/L
1 - 10 mmol/L

Calculated LDL Cholesterol
3 mmol/L
< 3 mmol/L

Serum Cholesterol/ HDL Ratio
4.9 mmol/L
<4 mmol/L




*H&H*
Name
Value
Range

Haemoglobin Estimation
167 g/L
130 - 180 g/L

Haematocrit
0.48 L/L
0.38 - 0.54 L/L



*Testosterone*
Name
Value
Range

Serum Free Testosterone
204 pmol/L
225 - 9999 pmol/L

Serum Testosterone
7.2 nmol/L
10 - 35 nmol/L

Sex Hormone Binding Globin
19 nmol/L
10 - 70 nmol/L

----------


## krugerr

Had a discussion with my doctor today. As you can see from the above results, my levels have crashed again after 1g Nebido in 4.5 weeks 

Tested - 14th July - FT 7.1 / TT 201
Injected - 4th August - 1000mg Nebido
Tested - 8th August - FT 10.5 / TT 273
Tested - 19th August - FT 15.6 / TT 382
Tested - 5th September - FT 7.2 / TT 204

As you can see from that, 1g took me as high as 382TT and back down to where i started again in 32 days. Ive attached the graph for those like me that like a visual aid. 

Dr has blamed my injection technique. So hes going to "show me how" on thursday... still... at least we know that the booster shot wouldnt have made a difference to my original start of Nebido. Im going to be starting from scratch again at this injection. 

Seriously, anyone have any thoughts? How can I be back at the start in 32 days.

I dont want to get back onto the topic of halflives, but even if we cautiously assume a HL of 14 days, I should still have about 25% of the Nebido in my system.

----------


## hammerheart

You seem to lack the esterases needed to free the molecule, I cannot find another explaination.

Injection technique my aas  :Smilie:

----------


## krugerr

> You seem to lack the esterases needed to free the molecule, I cannot find another explaination.
> 
> Injection technique my aas


Sorry, forgive my idiocy. Whats that?

----------


## Mr.BB

Where are you injecting heheh?

Maybe you are too BIG for nebido  :Smilie: 

Do it like Marcus, inject in bicep

----------


## krugerr

> Where are you injecting heheh?
> 
> Maybe you are too BIG for nebido 
> 
> Do it like Marcus, inject in bicep


Ive been doing the glutes. Dr definitely wont do my bicep! 

Just mega frustrating, you know... I just want to feel normal again, even through proper channels I feel wank.
Started with creams/gels in January, and Nebido in march, and my levels are no higher after 6 months.

----------


## hammerheart

> Sorry, forgive my idiocy. Whats that?


The enzymes that perform ester cleavage.

----------


## krugerr

> The enzymes that perform ester cleavage.


I see, but as my SHBG is about right, and my free test did increase... albeit, briefly... could you possibly elaborate? thanks!  :Smilie:

----------


## hammerheart

> I see, but as my SHBG is about right, and my free test did increase... albeit, briefly... could you possibly elaborate? thanks!


Well it's not that you lack them but just have less than normal. If I remember right Todd from IMT stated the same in the midst of the nebido diatribe.

----------


## krugerr

> Well it's not that you lack them but just have less than normal. If I remember right Todd from IMT stated the same in the midst of the nebido diatribe.


I see. Is there any other blood tests I should be asking for then? Anything else that would show this, or discount it?

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## Mr.BB

If you used deca before and worked that should not be the problem.

----------


## krugerr

> If you used deca before and worked that should not be the problem.


I have used many cycles before, long and short.

Test, Tren , Deca , NPP... not at the same time mind you! 
Ive said previously in here though that I never responded well to low doses, my cycles were always fairly large before I noticed gains.

----------


## Mr.BB

How tall are you?

And weight?

If I remember correctly you are a big guy...

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## krugerr

> How tall are you?
> 
> And weight?
> 
> If I remember correctly you are a big guy...


Height: 6'4" (~194cm)
Weight: 290lbs (131kg) 
Bodyfat: 25% Approximately

I havent trained or dieted properly in months, probably since the start of TRT.

----------


## Mr.BB

Its difficult to say anything, and would always be theories.

But on a bright side it seems the doctor has your attention.

Only thing I could suggest would be to contact bayer and see if they have any explanation or idea.

----------


## krugerr

> Its difficult to say anything, and would always be theories.
> 
> But on a bright side it seems the doctor has your attention.
> 
> Only thing I could suggest would be to contact bayer and see if they have any explanation or idea.


Yeah I have his attention, but hes fairly useless. He has no idea, and has already referred me back to the Endo. 

I may drop bayer an email to see if they can shed some light. But I suspect they'll just say I need to speak to my Endo.

----------


## Todd Thomas

> Indeed, laughable when we try our best to steer our member in a safe environment, looks like its been sorted out and if it hasn't, Todd send me an email and I'll put you straight


Set me straight on what exactly? Do it right here on the open board I have nothing to hide.

Honestly Marcus I have had many conversations with you in the past, no need to hash up old stuff when you give me plenty of recent material to go on.

Saying the peptides do not work makes you look uninformed. These peptides are what is used to diagnose AGHD through a GH stimulation test. So if they didn't work that test would never register a reading LOL.

The only reason they wouldn't work is if you had complete failure of the pituitary in which case you would most likely have shrinking organs and unsealing wounds.

So again, you just don't have a clue what your talking about, but this didn't surprise me 3 years ago either.



Kruger..... you need to try a different ester and see if the esterase is the issue. No reason they can't prescribe you testosterone enanthate , they have been prescribing it for years over there.

----------


## krugerr

> Set me straight on what exactly? Do it right here on the open board I have nothing to hide. Honestly Marcus I have had many conversations with you in the past, no need to hash up old stuff when you give me plenty of recent material to go on. Saying the peptides do not work makes you look uninformed. These peptides are what is used to diagnose AGHD through a GH stimulation test. So if they didn't work that test would never register a reading LOL. The only reason they wouldn't work is if you had complete failure of the pituitary in which case you would most likely have shrinking organs and unsealing wounds. So again, you just don't have a clue what your talking about, but this didn't surprise me 3 years ago either. Kruger..... you need to try a different ester and see if the esterase is the issue. No reason they can't prescribe you testosterone enanthate, they have been prescribing it for years over there.



Thanks Todd. I believe as a matter of course my Dr will only prescribe Nebido as that's what his system says. I won't be able to discuss injection protocols until I see the Endo. 

Appreciate the feedback. I'll keep it noted.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## gymffiti

> Thanks Todd. I believe as a matter of course my Dr will only prescribe Nebido as that's what his system says. I won't be able to discuss injection protocols until I see the Endo. 
> 
> Appreciate the feedback. I'll keep it noted.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using App


It sounds like you've been on a rollercoaster 

Even the charts in this thread, look that way ... Not that I understand them lol

Hopefully things will level out soon

----------


## krugerr

> It sounds like you've been on a rollercoaster 
> 
> Even the charts in this thread, look that way ... Not that I understand them lol
> 
> Hopefully things will level out soon


Thanks brother, me too!

----------


## krugerr

So I have just been and had my 6-week booster shot... not that it'll do much good as my levels are in the dirt. 
Dr suggested that the cause of the issue might be my injection technique, so insisted that he do them until I reach steady state...

So, he draws it, sticks it in my ass, and injects all 4ml in about 20 seconds. Bastard! Sore as hell now. 
Of course, as a Dr, no matter what I say, he knows better. 

Hes suggested a 10 week protocol now. I pointed out that I had returned to base levels after only 4.5 weeks, and he said that "everyone is different, we'll get there"... that doesnt explain your reasoning for 10week protocol. knob. 

Oh well, I see the Endo before my next injection is due. Hopefully he will be better.

----------


## gymffiti

> So I have just been and had my 6-week booster shot... not that it'll do much good as my levels are in the dirt. 
> Dr suggested that the cause of the issue might be my injection technique, so insisted that he do them until I reach steady state...
> 
> So, he draws it, sticks it in my ass, and injects all 4ml in about 20 seconds. Bastard! Sore as hell now. 
> Of course, as a Dr, no matter what I say, he knows better. 
> 
> *Hes suggested a 10 week protocol now. I pointed out that I had returned to base levels after only 4.5 weeks, and he said that "everyone is different, we'll get there"... that doesnt explain your reasoning for 10week protocol*. knob. 
> 
> Oh well, I see the Endo before my next injection is due. Hopefully he will be better.


On the NHS?

Sounds like an overcrowding / monetary decision

----------


## krugerr

> On the NHS?
> 
> Sounds like an overcrowding / monetary decision


Indeed on the NHS. As I have said, I hope my regular blood work, will be enough evidence to have a proper discussion with the Endo in a few weeks.

----------


## InternalFire

Holy smokes Kruger, that kinda fukcedup. May I ask you, do you sport your glutes alot? I mean lots of walking, stairs, or sitting a lot everyday? Something I found interesting if I pinned my glute and did cardio everyday I feel more sex drive spike during first 2 days, more oily skin and i tend to feel less libido few days later till I get my next pin, compared to where I pin and avoid cardio or sporting my glute alot I find it I feel more stable/even between pons. Could be all in my head and just placebo

----------


## krugerr

> Holy smokes Kruger, that kinda fukcedup. May I ask you, do you sport your glutes alot? I mean lots of walking, stairs, or sitting a lot everyday? Something I found interesting if I pinned my glute and did cardio everyday I feel more sex drive spike during first 2 days, more oily skin and i tend to feel less libido few days later till I get my next pin, compared to where I pin and avoid cardio or sporting my glute alot I find it I feel more stable/even between pons. Could be all in my head and just placebo


Yeah mate, I know. Its incredibly fucked up. Im back at feeling shit again. Argued with the Mrs this morning for no reason other than I felt shit.

Theoretically I guess you've a point, with such a large volume of oil in the Nebido shot, excessive activation of the muscle may chance absorption rates. But I think in reality it would be negligible. Specially with something as supposedly long estered as Nebido

----------


## InternalFire

What I was trying to dig up earlier was how body deals with an excessive amount of ester present in the bloodstream, such as 4ml of it, I was putting some theories together lately that it may come down to this as when body will see compound in abundance it may treat it as either antibody and try to avoid/get rid of it/excrete it quicker thus rendering it less potent, or may try to metabolise it some way faster increasing cell metabolism creating some environment in which ester half life is greatly compromised thus decreasing half life dramatically. Also, I dug up some info that per 1000mg test-u injected you really only get about 600mg worth due to such long ester attached, alot comes in to play... And 600g of test for all it would be worth is 6weeks trt dose for folks who arent needy greedy... Thus this test-u injection should be ideally done once every 4 weeks I think. Just a theory I put together, makes sense to me

----------


## hammerheart

Yes, once monthly as a minimum... I wish I knew better when I was on nebido. I remember how I felt better on weeks 4-5 from pin day then subsequently down the slope again.

----------


## krugerr

> What I was trying to dig up earlier was how body deals with an excessive amount of ester present in the bloodstream, such as 4ml of it, I was putting some theories together lately that it may come down to this as when body will see compound in abundance it may treat it as either antibody and try to avoid/get rid of it/excrete it quicker thus rendering it less potent, or may try to metabolise it some way faster increasing cell metabolism creating some environment in which ester half life is greatly compromised thus decreasing half life dramatically. Also, I dug up some info that per 1000mg test-u injected you really only get about 600mg worth due to such long ester attached, alot comes in to play... And 600g of test for all it would be worth is 6weeks trt dose for folks who arent needy greedy... Thus this test-u injection should be ideally done once every 4 weeks I think. Just a theory I put together, makes sense to me



Like your thinking brother. 

You are correct on the ester weight, it does drastically reduce the effective amount of testosterone . Its seeming to me more and more that a 10 week protocol wont be achievable with Nebido. Ever. Id still be happy with monthly though!

----------


## krugerr

> Yes, once monthly as a minimum... I wish I knew better when I was on nebido. I remember how I felt better on weeks 4-5 from pin day then subsequently down the slope again.


AS above brother, I think this will be the better path, however getting regular scripts from the Endo may prove difficult in the UK. I'll have to wait and see.

I can certainly attest to your timeframe. I felt quite good on week 2 and 3. Week 4 felt lower and week 6 now I feel like a pile of shit. 

From my blood tests above, I went up and returned to starting position in 32 days.

----------


## InternalFire

Here is a deal you can do I guess, keep taking your 10 week shots, and every ~14 days take an extra 250ml shot of test-e/sustanon by yourself, makes your trt kinda still legal and doc still looks after everything thinking that your nebido finally works... That is if he wont be putting you on e5wk protocol ever... Its complicated as fuck otherwise

----------


## krugerr

> Here is a deal you can do I guess, keep taking your 10 week shots, and every ~14 days take an extra 250ml shot of test-e/sustanon by yourself, makes your trt kinda still legal and doc still looks after everything thinking that your nebido finally works... That is if he wont be putting you on e5wk protocol ever... Its complicated as fuck otherwise


haha. Defeats the purpose, I want to be using prescription test, not relying on varying dose UGL. I love my UGL, but they're only as good as the raws he gets. Cant be relying on that accurately for TRT purposes. 

I really want this Nebido to start rockin. If Marcus, BIB and others can use it on 10-14 week protocols, I should be able to get at least 5!

----------


## InternalFire

I get your point, 

How is your doctor willing to go with anything less frequent than e10wk protocols? Or source yourself another nebido to go in between pins  :Big Grin:

----------


## krugerr

> I get your point, 
> 
> How is your doctor willing to go with anything less frequent than e10wk protocols? Or source yourself another nebido to go in between pins


Endo's discretion. If they can see it isnt working, they 'should' be able to use common sense and deviate from the standard injection protocol.

----------


## InternalFire

Hope they wont try to fill you in with some extra testo-gel

----------


## krugerr

> Hope they wont try to fill you in with some extra testo-gel


Not a chance, I wont use that crap again. Its very inconvenient, takes ages to absorb.

----------


## hammerheart

> Not a chance, I wont use that crap again. Its very inconvenient, takes ages to absorb.


Yes, very expensive. It crushed my T down to castration level. I appear to absorb it very quickly. 20mg only of that sh*t and levels are up to 1000 ng/dl after two hrs, to crash shortly thereafter. Works like test suspension to me, lol.

Sadly enough, I stayed as long as six months on that crap (before nebido).

----------


## krugerr

> Yes, very expensive. It crushed my T down to castration level. I appear to absorb it very quickly. 20mg only of that sh*t and levels are up to 1000 ng/dl after two hrs, to crash shortly thereafter. Works like test suspension to me, lol.
> 
> Sadly enough, I stayed as long as six months on that crap (before nebido).


I used it for about 6 or 8 weeks before my levels hit castration. 

Free Testosterone 4.4 (nmol/L)
Total Testosteron 72 (ng/dl)

After that I said I wont continue with the gels.

----------


## FakeLove

Dude, why haven't you still tried splitting that thing? I honestly don't think that you will gain anything by doing things as you are currently doing. You're not the first one that Nebido doesn't work as planned. I mean sure you can try, but I would see your best bet to be splitting it or changing to another supplement. 

I know the majority gets the benefits, absorbs it like in the studies and metabolises it like in the studies. But this your case, I've seen similar cases and only thing that has helped have been either insane injection frequency, splitting or other T supplement.

I mean this is the difference:

----------


## hammerheart

> 


That sums it up.

----------


## krugerr

> Dude, why haven't you still tried splitting that thing? I honestly don't think that you will gain anything by doing things as you are currently doing. You're not the first one that Nebido doesn't work as planned. I mean sure you can try, but I would see your best bet to be splitting it or changing to another supplement. 
> 
> I know the majority gets the benefits, absorbs it like in the studies and metabolises it like in the studies. But this your case, I've seen similar cases and only thing that has helped have been either insane injection frequency, splitting or other T supplement.
> 
> I mean this is the difference:


For now I guess I am trying to play ball, so that I have more ammunition when I see the Endo for changing the injection frequency. 
As it currently stands, my GP is administering my injections, and he wants to go 10 weekly. Thank god I see the Endo beforehand.

I do very much see the benefits of bring the Nebido protocol much narrower than suggested by Bayer. Just gonna tow the line until I can get them on board, and the scripts to do so.

----------


## krugerr

> That sums it up.


except my decline was even steeper!

----------


## InternalFire

I think we're not seeing an elephant in the room. Although youre a big guy, 25% BF doesnt help, the more fat you carry the quicker and and at greater rate you aromatise your T to E, I just wonder how would you be if you went down to under 15% bf? Note, marcus and BIB are both very active and train with brutal routines constantly, and not even talking about them being lower bf than you, Im just guessing how much passive lifestyle and carrying more BF can play in quick metabolism on test in the body when discussing nebido protocol. So I understand, test either gets used as a muscle building tool or it gets converted to E2 and DHT , by the preference of demand. I think since building muscle is so much harder than storing fat for the body , if there is a passive drive and necessary resources (in this case - excess T) body sees no reason to use it as a muscle building aid and pretty much continuously converting it to e2 which promotes further water retention and expanding fat cells for emergency fat storage, where as if you were lean and had a constant stimuli on muscle breakdown/building body would promote its natural anabolic state where T is used to promote muscle building, and reduce fat energy storage mode... Speculating but i think it may be close call

----------


## krugerr

> I think we're not seeing an elephant in the room. Although youre a big guy, 25% BF doesnt help, the more fat you carry the quicker and and at greater rate you aromatise your T to E, I just wonder how would you be if you went down to under 15% bf? Note, marcus and BIB are both very active and train with brutal routines constantly, and not even talking about them being lower bf than you, Im just guessing how much passive lifestyle and carrying more BF can play in quick metabolism on test in the body when discussing nebido protocol. So I understand, test either gets used as a muscle building tool or it gets converted to E2 and DHT , by the preference of demand. I think since building muscle is so much harder than storing fat for the body , if there is a passive drive and necessary resources (in this case - excess T) body sees no reason to use it as a muscle building aid and pretty much continuously converting it to e2 which promotes further water retention and expanding fat cells for emergency fat storage, where as if you were lean and had a constant stimuli on muscle breakdown/building body would promote its natural anabolic state where T is used to promote muscle building, and reduce fat energy storage mode... Speculating but i think it may be close call


My BF has crept up gradually since I stopped training, and dieting. 

No doubt its too high, but with my current moods, libido, drowsiness... i cannot be arsed.

----------


## InternalFire

how about just jump on some passive hour a day cardio while watching some film/tv show/listening some good audio books? I found that killed the shitty-part of me that "couldnt be arsed" to train when I HAD TO DO IT. It helps kickstart brain and soul in to the right zone little by little and soon you should find yourself chasing the "good" feel while training hard and consistent, fuckin trick yourself in to it, dont need to go "oven-hot"  :Big Grin:  (get it? the opposite of "cold-turkey")

----------


## krugerr

Thanks for the encouragment brother. 

alongside my lack of arsing... its a time thing. I work so far from home that I have to leave before I have time to train in the mornings, then Im back so late I choose to see wife and kids instead of train. Priorities change.

----------


## InternalFire

kids on your shoulders, wife by the hand and go for a walk in the morning sunrise or evening sunset, every day! Just for kicks, for a good air, for the rain, for them clouds in the sky, just walk for an hour and laugh, talk and kick some grass, maybe sand if you live by the seaside.

Dayum man, get ahlod of the hardcore side of yourself for once, show it to yourself

----------


## krugerr

> kids on your shoulders, wife by the hand and go for a walk in the morning sunrise or evening sunset, every day! Just for kicks, for a good air, for the rain, for them clouds in the sky, just walk for an hour and laugh, talk and kick some grass, maybe sand if you live by the seaside.
> 
> Dayum man, get ahlod of the hardcore side of yourself for once, show it to yourself


5 year old, and a 9month old brother. Shes in bed by the time im getting home, so no chance of that. Hes in bed soon after. 

two jobs and all!

----------


## InternalFire

> 5 year old, and a 9month old brother. Shes in bed by the time im getting home, so no chance of that. Hes in bed soon after. two jobs and all!


Im in a mill-house of my own man, and boy oh boy I don't have time for anything either, but magic happens time to tome when you observe yourself more and more frequently, just keep an eye on it. i know life happens and thats it, but reasons for doing weird stuff happens to and then life tends to stretch that little bit when needed, just keep an eye on this man, if you do, I promise you , things will improve and you will notice  :Wink:  hold strong man

----------


## krugerr

Results for the 22nd Sept (7 days after booster).

These are the highest recorded levels so far!

Tested - 14th July - FT 7.1 / TT 201
**Injected - 4th August - 1000mg Nebido
Tested - 8th August - FT 10.5 / TT 273
Tested - 19th August - FT 15.6 / TT 382
Tested - 5th September - FT 7.2 / TT 204
**Injected - 15th Sept - 1000mg Nebido
Tested - 22nd Sept - FT 21.6 // TT 514




*H&H*
Name
Value
Range

Haemoglobin Estimation
171 g/L
130 - 180 g/L

Haematocrit
0.5 L/L
0.38 - 0.54 L/L



*Testosterone*
Name
Value
Range

Serum Free Testosterone
514 pmol/L
225 - 9999 pmol/L

Serum Testosterone
21.6 nmol/L
10 - 35 nmol/L

Sex Hormone Binding Globin
16 nmol/L
10 - 70 nmol/L

----------


## krugerr

Once again, my libido has started to increase and I'm still permanently having mood swings!

Only 3 weeks until the Endo appointment! Im really hoping they'll have some common sense and interpret the above blood results properly.

----------


## krugerr

Im not sure where I am at now. I feel all over the place. Up and down like a freaking yo-yo. Some days im happy, other days not so much and I cant work out if its TRT, or the stresses of the rest of my life causing it. 

5 days now until my Endo appointment. Gotta take a piss sample. Im hoping that the blood tests I have posted here, will be enough evidence for him to work from. 
I havent had any more since my "booster" shot. 

Fingers crossed eh that I can finally speak to someone with some knowledge and common sense to adjust my injection protocol.

----------


## Mr.BB

You need to start training, for someone experienced its easy to know when you are lifting on low T.

It will also help controlling your bloods, not to mention its healthy lol

----------


## krugerr

> You need to start training, for someone experienced its easy to know when you are lifting on low T.
> 
> It will also help controlling your bloods, not to mention its *healthy* lol


What is the *H* word you speak of?  :Wink: 

Yeah I know. Getting back in the gym would considerably increase my sense of wellbeing, and reduced bodyfat would make changes to my TRT effectiveness. 
Its a nasty loop of feeling shit, so not training, and not training, so feeling shit. 

On top of that, i have addressed in my Blog that I just dont have time at the moment. I am working stupid hours, and then trying to fit the small time I have left with the family. Id rather have higher BF and not train, than miss my daughters first year. Every day she does something new, you know? This morning as i was rushing about to leave at 6:45am, she stood up and balanced by herself, she is only 10 months. I think a few more days and she will take her first step. I missed all this with my son, I dont want to miss it again.

----------


## Mr.BB

Sorry to be blunt, but you are making excuses for not going to the gym.

So, you dont have 2 hours on weekend? What do you do, stare at the crib when shes sleeping?

Not buying it. Dont believe you cant find a small time, nobody is saying to spend 5 hours in the gym everyday. Couple of sessions per week everybody can squezee in... 

If you dont want to is another story...

----------


## krugerr

> *Sorry to be blunt, but you are making excuses for not going to the gym.*
> 
> So, you dont have 2 hours on weekend? What do you do, stare at the crib when shes sleeping?
> 
> Not buying it. Dont believe you cant find a small time, nobody is saying to spend 5 hours in the gym everyday. Couple of sessions per week everybody can squezee in... 
> 
> If you dont want to is another story...


Dont be sorry. You're absolutely correct. 
Weekdays are out of the question entirely due to work, the gym opens at 6 and I have to be on the road by 6:45. It closes at 9pm and Im not back in time usually to go. There are the odd days I am, but I choose then to see my family. Weekends I have a second job, I work nights as a bouncer, so I am usually in bed til midday, and the gym closes at 4pm on Saturday and Sunday. You're right, I absolutely could fit in a couple sessions on the weekend, but at the moment I choose to spend that time doing other things. 
Right now gym just isnt a priority. I am working my ass off to try get us ahead so that I can drop the weekend work.

----------


## TjmAble

> Sorry to be blunt, but you are making excuses for not going to the gym.
> 
> So, you dont have 2 hours on weekend? What do you do, stare at the crib when shes sleeping?
> 
> Not buying it. Dont believe you cant find a small time, nobody is saying to spend 5 hours in the gym everyday. Couple of sessions per week everybody can squezee in...
> 
> If you dont want to is another story...


Sorry but I also agree with BB let me give you an example at my program, 

I get up at 6:30 and going to my clinic cause I'm a pre-med and I get out at 2 o clock then immediately when I leave I go to the gym but I chuck down a protein scoop with some carbs beside for energy, when I get out of the gym after 1-1:30 half ours at 3:30 I got for dialysis blood treatment (I'm a Chronic disease Kidney patient) for 4 hours and the I'm smashed like someone make my body a punching bag but after the treatment I go to library for studying for another 4-5hours and then I go to sleep + I manage to eat 6 times a day!

----------


## gymffiti

> What is the *H* word you speak of? 
> 
> Yeah I know. Getting back in the gym would considerably increase my sense of wellbeing, and reduced bodyfat would make changes to my TRT effectiveness. 
> *Its a nasty loop of feeling shit, so not training, and not training, so feeling shit.* 
> 
> On top of that, i have addressed in my Blog that I just dont have time at the moment. I am working stupid hours, and then trying to fit the small time I have left with the family. Id rather have higher BF and not train, than miss my daughters first year. Every day she does something new, you know? This morning as i was rushing about to leave at 6:45am, she stood up and balanced by herself, she is only 10 months. I think a few more days and she will take her first step. I missed all this with my son, I dont want to miss it again.


I certainly know that feeling. It's a tricky situation

Let me know if you figure a way our of it lol

----------


## krugerr

> Sorry but I also agree with BB let me give you an example at my program, 
> 
> I get up at 6:30 and going to my clinic cause I'm a pre-med and I get out at 2 o clock then immediately when I leave I go to the gym but I chuck down a protein scoop with some carbs beside for energy, when I get out of the gym after 1-1:30 half ours at 3:30 I got for dialysis blood treatment (I'm a Chronic disease Kidney patient) for 4 hours and the I'm smashed like someone make my body a punching bag but after the treatment I go to library for studying for another 4-5hours and then I go to sleep + I manage to eat 6 times a day!


You quite obviously don't have kids or a wife to consider!  :Wink:

----------


## krugerr

> I certainly know that feeling. It's a tricky situation
> 
> Let me know if you figure a way our of it lol


Now dont quote me on this, but I have been researching for many months. I believe that the answer to happiness is Ice Cream... im still testing the theory though.

----------


## gymffiti

> Now dont quote me on this, but I have been researching for many months. I believe that the answer to happiness is Ice Cream... im still testing the theory though.

----------


## TjmAble

> You quite obviously don't have kids or a wife to consider!


Please don't misjudge me I didn't said that like that, I wanna say if you love something so much you can find the time! For me it's bodybuilding and if I die in the gym I will not bother I meant it like that.
Hope the best for you and your family buddy!  :Smilie:

----------


## krugerr

> Please don't misjudge me I didn't said that like that, I wanna say if you love something so much you can find the time! For me it's bodybuilding and if I die in the gym I will not bother I meant it like that. Hope the best for you and your family buddy!


I know, friend. Lost in translation perhaps. 

You're right, there was a time where gym was the priority. But with a family comes a lot of other responsibility. For me, that comes first at the moment. I have no ambition to compete at anything, so gym has fallen into the catagory of hobby. My professional career doesn't at all rely on my physique!  :Wink:

----------


## TRA

> Im also on nebido, trying to decide if im taking the booster shot at 6weeks, which was due last tuesday.
> 
> You might want to donate before doing next bloodwork, or it might scare the doc.


Agree - nothing will bring TRT to screeching halt faster than elevated Hb/Hct. Depending on doc sometimes it makes them reluctant to move forward even after you donate if you show high at all.

----------


## krugerr

Well that Endo appointment was a complete waste of my time. 

On my phone I'll update fully at home.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## krugerr

Well, the Endo appointment...

Right from the start I knew it was a lost cause. Hes about 80 years old, has been in medicine his entire life. 
He started by saying testosterone is dangerous and can kill. 
We moved on to looking at my blood results (All in this thread), he noted LH and FSH were suppressed, this is probably because my doctor has been "reckless" in suggesting an 8 week injection protocol. He said it should always be 12 weeks except in extreme circumstances then possibly 10 weeks. Which basically put me on the defencive. I pointed out that LH and FSH are suppressed with any exogenous testosterone, but he ignored that. He continued to say that my levels were "satisfactory" as the range is from 200-999, and some of my bloods came in around the 200 mark. I had one test immediatly after a Nebido shot, and that came back at about 500. He said this was a dangerous level. 

He then proceeded to point out that testosterone knows my weight, and wont work because of this. He used a BMI chart to determine I am morbidly obese and should drop 40kg.

I took my graphs and blood test data with me, to give him a visual representation of how my blood levels look when overlaid on my injection protocol. He wasnt at all interested. He kept saying that it will build up eventially. I then forced him to look at it. POinting out that after 1g Nebido, I was back at base levels in about 32 days. rendering the 6 week booster useless, let alone waiting 10 weeks. He said he could not explain this. He suggested that going back to daily cream is the best way to achieve steady state, and that I am too young. 

He took bloods to test PSA. Informed me that I wont be able to have children on TRT and said he would look at my blood results and write to my Dr and myself accordingly. 

To get my payback when he was checking my nuts for atrophy, I stretched right out and said "Perks of the job, eh!". He was not amused!  :Wink: 

Thoughts? I think I will wait and see what he says. I am pre-empting that he will suggest going back to gel. In which case I will self medicate a while until i can afford a TRT clinic.

----------


## hammerheart

Gels are the worst imo.

Consider what I suggested in the other thread. That way you can restore nice levels and still access NHS services. Just take care not to overdo it.

----------


## krugerr

> Gels are the worst imo.
> 
> Consider what I suggested in the other thread. That way you can restore nice levels and still access NHS services. Just take care not to overdo it.


Agree - I HATE the gel. 

If I recall you suggested splitting the nebido 4 ways? I'll re-read my blog thread.

----------


## hammerheart

> Agree - I HATE the gel. 
> 
> If I recall you suggested splitting the nebido 4 ways? I'll re-read my blog thread.


Nope, this.

Splitting the nebido is not going to work.

----------


## TRA

Endo is not the specialty to see for TRT by any means. My anterior pituitary crashed from an infarct years ago and in spite of me not being able to produce LH/FSH endo says test pellets are bad. They think if you have a dusting of test you are fine. They have obviously never lived with the horrific feelings of having your hormones jacked. 
I have a good friend who does HRT for men and women and is a leading authority, but even she does stuff like ignores HCG for testicular atrophy, uses letrozole exclusively and does not want to consider adex, etc. 
I am in medicine (we get little to no training in hormones) but have gotten much better practical information here from an HRT specialist/knowledgeable member than my doc for sure. Just sayin'...

----------


## Mr.BB

Endos can work, if they have a specialization in andrology, still usually not up to date to most procedures.

Even recent medical guidelines are not so up to date...

----------


## krugerr

> Endo is not the specialty to see for TRT by any means. My anterior pituitary crashed from an infarct years ago and in spite of me not being able to produce LH/FSH endo says test pellets are bad. They think if you have a dusting of test you are fine. They have obviously never lived with the horrific feelings of having your hormones jacked. I have a good friend who does HRT for men and women and is a leading authority, but even she does stuff like ignores HCG for testicular atrophy, uses letrozole exclusively and does not want to consider adex, etc. I am in medicine (we get little to no training in hormones) but have gotten much better practical information here from an HRT specialist/knowledgeable member than my doc for sure. Just sayin'...


Agreed 10 times over. 

I have more faith in the members of this forum than any medical professional I'm ever likely to come across.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## krugerr

> Endos can work, if they have a specialization in andrology, still usually not up to date to most procedures. Even recent medical guidelines are not so up to date...


Yeah. My luck has it this guy qualified 50 years ago.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## krugerr

> Nope, this. Splitting the nebido is not going to work.


In the car. I'll check that when home. It won't open in app. Thanks Biz.

Sent from my iPhone using App

----------


## TjmAble

> Well, the Endo appointment...
> 
> Right from the start I knew it was a lost cause. Hes about 80 years old, has been in medicine his entire life.
> He started by saying testosterone is dangerous and can kill.
> We moved on to looking at my blood results (All in this thread), he noted LH and FSH were suppressed, this is probably because my doctor has been "reckless" in suggesting an 8 week injection protocol. He said it should always be 12 weeks except in extreme circumstances then possibly 10 weeks. Which basically put me on the defencive. I pointed out that LH and FSH are suppressed with any exogenous testosterone, but he ignored that. He continued to say that my levels were "satisfactory" as the range is from 200-999, and some of my bloods came in around the 200 mark. I had one test immediatly after a Nebido shot, and that came back at about 500. He said this was a dangerous level.
> 
> He then proceeded to point out that testosterone knows my weight, and wont work because of this. He used a BMI chart to determine I am morbidly obese and should drop 40kg.
> 
> I took my graphs and blood test data with me, to give him a visual representation of how my blood levels look when overlaid on my injection protocol. He wasnt at all interested. He kept saying that it will build up eventially. I then forced him to look at it. POinting out that after 1g Nebido, I was back at base levels in about 32 days. rendering the 6 week booster useless, let alone waiting 10 weeks. He said he could not explain this. He suggested that going back to daily cream is the best way to achieve steady state, and that I am too young.
> ...


First of all, fvck the Gel, if you can, push for Nebido, because I came through the same situations like you to find a Good and open minded Andrologist not Endo I spend like 200 euros in Private doctor and I'm a Pre-Med myself, so I suggest you this, find a Young In Age Andrologist Doctor, the last one I went she was like 45-48 and open minded it, Old Doctors who have spend their life in the hospital are either afraid to take responsibility of you and the treatment or they are just bored and they don't want to work with you, if you find a young doctor who will have the excitement to work with you and help you I don't think that he/she will not prescribe you your TRT.

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## krugerr

> First of all, fvck the Gel, if you can, push for Nebido, because I came through the same situations like you to find a Good and open minded Andrologist not Endo I spend like 200 euros in Private doctor and I'm a Pre-Med myself, so I suggest you this, find a Young In Age Andrologist Doctor, the last one I went she was like 45-48 and open minded it, Old Doctors who have spend their life in the hospital are either afraid to take responsibility of you and the treatment or they are just bored and they don't want to work with you, if you find a young doctor who will have the excitement to work with you and help you I don't think that he/she will not prescribe you your TRT.


Yes. This is what I alluded too when I said he was 80 and had spent a lifetime in medicine. He had no drive. He was just there going through the motions. Irritating. 

I wasn't really aware until today that an Endo wasn't an expert on hormones. Andrologist. Is this even a role in the NHS?

Finally yeah, fuck the gel. In no way is that feasible long term unless you're unemployed without kids. The second I put it on my daughter would start screaming, my son would bash is head on something or decide to give me a running jumping cuddle.

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## TjmAble

> Yes. This is what I alluded too when I said he was 80 and had spent a lifetime in medicine. He had no drive. He was just there going through the motions. Irritating.
> 
> I wasn't really aware until today that an Endo wasn't an expert on hormones. Andrologist. Is this even a role in the NHS?
> 
> Finally yeah, fuck the gel. In no way is that feasible long term unless you're unemployed without kids. The second I put it on my daughter would start screaming, my son would bash is head on something or decide to give me a running jumping cuddle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using App


Well It's not a very common specialty even in medicine, I'm just saying the Gel is not good cause I have read that if you want to have an "intercourse" with your woman or if you want to hug your kids it's possible to passing it on from your skin to them. The Gel itself inside the instruction paper says that if you are using it you must avoid contact with women and children.

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## hammerheart

> Yes. This is what I alluded too when I said he was 80 and had spent a lifetime in medicine. He had no drive. He was just there going through the motions. Irritating. 
> 
> I wasn't really aware until today that an Endo wasn't an expert on hormones. Andrologist. Is this even a role in the NHS?
> 
> Finally yeah, fuck the gel. In no way is that feasible long term unless you're unemployed without kids. The second I put it on my daughter would start screaming, my son would bash is head on something or decide to give me a running jumping cuddle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using App


An andrologist is usually an uro specializing in male health. About endos... I think every man on TRT did the same experience at least once.




> Well It's not a very common specialty even in medicine, I'm just saying the Gel is not good cause I have read that if you want to have an "intercourse" with your woman or if you want to hug your kids it's possible to passing it on from your skin to them. The Gel itself inside the instruction paper says that if you are using it you must avoid contact with women and children.


Gels are marketing BS and don't really work for most imo. Also dirty expensive.

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## TRA

> Well It's not a very common specialty even in medicine, I'm just saying the Gel is not good cause I have read that if you want to have an "intercourse" with your woman or if you want to hug your kids it's possible to passing it on from your skin to them. The Gel itself inside the instruction paper says that if you are using it you must avoid contact with women and children.


That eliminates its use for American politicians then.

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## TjmAble

> That eliminates its use for American politicians then.


I live in Europe and doesn't seems to work at our politicians though  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## gymffiti

> Well, the Endo appointment...
> 
> Right from the start I knew it was a lost cause. Hes about 80 years old, has been in medicine his entire life. 
> He started by saying testosterone is dangerous and can kill. 
> We moved on to looking at my blood results (All in this thread), he noted LH and FSH were suppressed, this is probably because my doctor has been "reckless" in suggesting an 8 week injection protocol. He said it should always be 12 weeks except in extreme circumstances then possibly 10 weeks. Which basically put me on the defencive. I pointed out that LH and FSH are suppressed with any exogenous testosterone, but he ignored that. He continued to say that my levels were "satisfactory" as the range is from 200-999, and some of my bloods came in around the 200 mark. I had one test immediatly after a Nebido shot, and that came back at about 500. He said this was a dangerous level. 
> 
> He then proceeded to point out that testosterone knows my weight, and wont work because of this. He used a BMI chart to determine I am morbidly obese and should drop 40kg.
> 
> I took my graphs and blood test data with me, to give him a visual representation of how my blood levels look when overlaid on my injection protocol. He wasnt at all interested. He kept saying that it will build up eventially. I then forced him to look at it. POinting out that after 1g Nebido, I was back at base levels in about 32 days. rendering the 6 week booster useless, let alone waiting 10 weeks. He said he could not explain this. He suggested that going back to daily cream is the best way to achieve steady state, and that I am too young. 
> ...


I feel for you.

I know from past experiences, that it's so exhausting having to fight for the right treatment. Especially when feeling low and drained from medical issues 

Oh and BMI? ... FFS!

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## krugerr

> I feel for you. I know from past experiences, that it's so exhausting having to fight for the right treatment. Especially when feeling low and drained from medical issues Oh and BMI? ... FFS!


Yes. Fucking BMI which has me at super massively morbidly obese. Because it's a ridiculous system.

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## Back In Black

Kruger, I just got my annual bloodwork. I've been on nebido 2 years. For the first year I was at 12 week intervals.

The range used is 8-27nmol/L

One year after 12 week intervals at 10.5 weeks my levels were 11.4nmol/L

I immediately switched to 11 week intervals and 

after 12 months on this schedule at 10.5 weeks my levels are 19.7nmol/L

All my other readings are in range and have barely changed between the 2 readings.

I guess this shows that even a small shortening of injection schedules can have a big impact on test levels over a period of time. Of course I am a very small study but if you could get a injection schedule at 8-10 weeks and see where you go from there.

Insist upon a second opinion.

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## krugerr

> Kruger, I just got my annual bloodwork. I've been on nebido 2 years. For the first year I was at 12 week intervals.
> 
> The range used is 8-27nmol/L
> 
> One year after 12 week intervals at 10.5 weeks my levels were 11.4nmol/L
> 
> I immediately switched to 11 week intervals and 
> 
> after 12 months on this schedule at 10.5 weeks my levels are 19.7nmol/L
> ...


Hi mate, thanks for posting that up here, its good to be able to see other peoples results. 

Can I ask, technially speaking those blood levels are not indicative of how your year upto them was. It only reflects the most recent injection, and how long after it the blood test was. 

Do you have that information? Looking at my own results, I will always be at base level before my next injection, so I have no way for it to build up over time. I was back at base levels after 32 days. Not even half way through a 10week protocol. 

Im still waiting to hear back from the Endo's blood test, although I suspect it wont have much impact.

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## krugerr

Well, I'm still here. The blood test from the Endo appointment came back. He's booked to see me in February, and recommended staying on a 10 week protocol. 
Im awaiting more blood test results form the 18th Nov, but suspect they'l show a goodly drop again. I can almost predict with +/- 5% accuracy what my blood levels will be on any given day now!

Attached are the latest results and graph. 

BiB - I didnt mean to come across as an ass in my previous post, re-reading it, I may have. Apologies!

Do you happen to know how long after injection your blood test was taken?

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## krugerr

Well we're into 2017. I have been on Nebido for 10 months now, and the results are as expected really. My levels are fluctuating considerably, my moods continue to swing. My weight has maintained at around 300lbs.

As usual, I have collated the data and included it below in graphical and list format. There were a few other blood tests that I had, but they wouldnt release the data to me, just saying that they were "normal" so there are some periods without any.

Just to summarise, at the moment I am on a 10 weekly protocol, as directed by the Endo. My Doctor wont give me prescriptions any sooner than that. I have another Endo appointment in February. Im hoping to have enough evidence then to show I need a more frequent injection protocol. 

Plus points though, even though I do have wildly unstable blood levels, I have found that the last 3-4 months I havent had any lulls in libido. I didnt document it too well, so it is hard to evidence, but I am sure I wasnt getting morning wood this frequently at the start of Nebido injections. 

As always - I appreciate any comments, feedback, or knowledge.

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## kelkel

Are the 12/1/17 numbers your trough level after 10 weeks?

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## krugerr

> Are the 12/1/17 numbers your trough level after 10 weeks?


Im due my next injection on the 20th. So true trough levels should be on the 19th January. But yeah in reality those are pretty close to my trough levels. (9 weeks on those levels).

They're not exactly booming numbers, but they're considerably better than my levels before TRT!

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## kelkel

Your FT levels when in the low 20's is great. Be nice to keep thing there! Also be nice to be able to pull BW every few weeks throughout this process to see where you are.

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## krugerr

> Your FT levels when in the low 20's is great. Be nice to keep thing there! Also be nice to be able to pull BW every few weeks throughout this process to see where you are.


I am going to try get 5-6 blood tests done over the next 10 week period. If I did weekly my GP surgery would get suspicious and probably block me from booking them! I kinda get away with it for now. My Dr hasnt actually authorised any bloodwork, because he is a knob! :P

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## krugerr

> I am going to try get 5-6 blood tests done over the next 10 week period. If I did weekly my GP surgery would get suspicious and probably block me from booking them! I kinda get away with it for now. My Dr hasnt actually authorised any bloodwork, because he is a knob! :P


Well, this 10-week protocol is nearly up. 

Attached is the latest blood work, along with a graphical version. Final blood test tomorrow to see where my levels lie. 
I was referred to the Endocrinologist again, but couldn't make the appointment, so I have to wait a few months again. Cant fault the NHS as it is free, but damn they are slow! 

Mood has been fairly stable, and by that, I mean I havent noticed any abnormal mood swings. 
As you'll be able to see in the data below, my Oestradiol swings quite wildly. Climbing dramatically right after injection, and then dropping down of the 10-week protocol as we expect.
Is this much swing normal/acceptable? In the UK they dont prescribe any AI or HCG with TRT, so my levels are purely on the Nebido injections. Thoughts anyone?

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## AR's King Silabolin

Why dont u try Di-Indoly Methane?. Isnt that OTC.? Aust said he does that with his TRT...Im considering it myself if my estrogen comes out high 6 week in my Nebidojourney.

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## krugerr

> Why dont u try Di-Indoly Methane?. Isnt that OTC.? Aust said he does that with his TRT...Im considering it myself if my estrogen comes out high 6 week in my Nebidojourney.


I hadn't considered it, and had quite honestly forgotten most of the stuff in Austs thread. Thanks for the reminder Sil. 

Also, welcome back. 


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