# STEROIDS FORUM > SARMs (Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators) Information Forum >  SARMS are suppressive (blood results)

## Slide

Hey all - just got my blood tests back and some bad news. they are pretty suppressive for me.

332 ng/dl (normal 280-800) before SARMS 
155 ng/dl currently. 

My dosage is 100mg a day.

when i come off should i taper down? I am guessing I should do a PCT? maybe we should be using HCG with SARMS...?

thoughts?

----------


## adam15425

Thanks for this! I think that there is a lot of marketing scheming going on with this S-4 product. It's a shame what bullsh*t companies will pull to sell a product for their own monetary gain. I am about a week into PCT running S-4 @ 25mg/day. Looks like I will be dropping the S-4

----------


## Steroidman99

> Thanks for this! I think that there is a lot of marketing scheming going on with this S-4 product. It's a shame what bullsh*t companies will pull to sell a product for their own monetary gain. I am about a week into PCT running S-4 @ 25mg/day. Looks like I will be dropping the S-4


And what would you expect at 100 mg/day? People use such insane dosages of S-4 like if they seriously competed for Darwin's Prize. You shouldn't be seriously suppressed, if you don't go above 50 mg/day. I myself plan to run S-4 in my PCT at 20 mg/day.

----------


## adam15425

> And what would you expect at 100 mg/day? People use such insane dosages of S-4 like if they seriously competed for Darwin's Prize. *You shouldn't be seriously suppressed, if you don't go above 50 mg/day*. I myself plan to run S-4 in my PCT at 20 mg/day.


How are we sure 50mg is not insane?

----------


## adam15425

BTW...didn't you post this on Dec 6th??? 

Steroidman99 
Junior Member

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 55

How many of you used SARMs without PCT
...and kept the gains? 

It seems to be less suppressive than testosterone , but still, in doses higher than 30-40 mg/day in humans, the suppression of LH should be significant.

----------


## endus

Sorry to hear that. Mine was suppressed little bit but not that much. I would do PCT.

By the way is that free or total?

----------


## Steroidman99

> BTW...didn't you post this on Dec 6th??? 
> 
> Steroidman99 
> Junior Member
> 
> Join Date: Jul 2008
> Posts: 55
> 
> How many of you used SARMs without PCT
> ...


It starts to be slightly suppressive at 0.5 mg/day (=1,9 mg/kg) in lab rats. This is also the dose, when a maximal anabolic effect is reached. (Well, it may rise a bit further, but only very, very slightly.) When extrapolated to humans, this dosage corresponds to ca. 30 mg/day in a 100 kg person. 

So you really don't have to run high doses, if you want to use it as PCT. In fact, at 20 mg/day, the anabolic effect of S-4 should be nearly maximal already, and testosterone suppression should be virtually zero. But I will have to test it at first, of course. 

By the way, I read a log of some man (I think it was on another forum), who used 100 mg/day for 6 weeks, and then ran 20 mg Tamoxifen +25 mg Clomid as PCT. After 3 weeks, his testosterone was supranormal, i.e. even higher than before his cycle. Another man ran 120 mg/day, and after 3 weeks, his testosterone dropped by 50%. This is similar to the data reported by the guy Slide above (-53%). So you can expect that at 100 mg/day, your test will be suppressed by ca. 50%, but it can be probably managed by a simple PCT.

----------


## adam15425

> It starts to be slightly suppressive at 0.5 mg/day (=1,9 mg/kg) in lab rats. This is also the dose, when a maximal anabolic effect is reached. (Well, it may rise a bit further, but only very, very slightly.) When extrapolated to humans, this dosage corresponds to ca. 30 mg/day in a 100 kg person. 
> 
> So you really don't have to run high doses, if you want to use it as PCT. In fact, at 20 mg/day, the anabolic effect of S-4 should be nearly maximal already, and testosterone suppression should be virtually zero. But I will have to test it at first, of course. 
> 
> By the way, I read a log of some man (I think it was on another forum), who used 100 mg/day for 6 weeks, and then ran 20 mg Tamoxifen+25 mg Clomid as PCT. After 3 weeks, his testosterone was supranormal, i.e. even higher than before his cycle. Another man ran 120 mg/day, and after 3 weeks, his testosterone dropped by 50%. This is similar to the data reported by the guy Slide above (-53%). So you can expect that at 100 mg/day, your test will be suppressed by ca. 50%, but it can be probably managed by a simple PCT.


Which compound are you describing. Andarine?

----------


## adam15425

*ALSO, I would not trust any info from a guy that gave this advice ON A DECA AND WINNY CYCLE THAT LOOKED LIKE THIS:*

Hi guys

5,7 160LB 31 years old (4 years in the gym) 

I will start my injection cycle next week and it is as follow:

week1 deca 250ml / wistrol 100ml
week2 deca 250ml/ winstrol 100 ml
week3 deca 500ml/ winstrol 100 ml
week4 deca 500ml/ wistrol 100 ml
week5 deca 250ml/ winstrol 100ml
week6 deca 250ml/ winstrol 100 ml
week7 wistrol 100 ml

it is all 7 weeks cycle and I don't want to stack anything else. I only need to get extra few pounds.

the question is this: Is this cycle will cause me any sideeffect such as decrease in the sex drive or hair lose? or any other neg. effects?

guys please let me know.

YOU (STEROIDMAN99) SAID:
To the contrary, this is a very wise cycle. The steroids support each other in anabolic action, Deca heals joints that Winstrol damages, Winstrol acts as an anti-progestin and blocks Deca's progestagenic effects. 

You shouldn't forget that everybody is different. Don't press testosterone to all people, when they don't need it and may lose more than they gain. I have once used nandrolone , and I wouldn't know that something like "Deca dick" exists, unless I read about it in the internet. Similarly, now I use oxandrolone that allegedly "shuts people down hard", but I feel fine like never before on a steroid cycle. There exist general guidances, but you can't simply say, how the stuff will work in you, unless you test it. 

As for hair loss, this is a pretty safe cycle, if the doses of Winstrol are not too high. However, Mr. Divesolid should list exact doses. I can't judge anything from mililiters of oil or water.

*You my friend need to leave before you dig yourself any deeper*

----------


## bass

> Hey all - just got my blood tests back and some bad news. they are pretty suppressive for me.
> 
> 332 ng/dl (normal 280-800) before SARMS 
> 155 ng/dl currently. 
> 
> My dosage is 100mg a day.
> 
> when i come off should i taper down? I am guessing I should do a PCT? maybe we should be using HCG with SARMS...?
> 
> thoughts?


sorry to hear it Slide, it was the opposite for me. i was planning to run S4 early February, but decided to do a different cycle, but once i am done with that maybe 2-3 months after I’ll do S4 cycle but will do a complete blood test before, during and after and see what happens...if S4 doesn’t measure up then i will be done with it for good, i will log it as well...

----------


## Slide

Ok all, i am going to be dropping it to 50mg and then waiting a few weeks and get my blood tested again and see if it improves at all. If it does, then tapering S4 might be the way to go. 

Also i have had no testicular atrophy, which from what i have read is the real killer as far as Test recovery time. I would hypothesize that if HCG (500iu every few days) was run with S4 then there might not be any suppression at all. I am going to start running the HCG today.

----------


## "DIRTY D" SANCHEZ

> sorry to hear that. Mine was suppressed little bit but not that much. I would do pct.
> 
> By the way is that free or total?


agreed and i pressume serms are pct?

----------


## Swifto

Listen people...

This whole 'SARMs dont effect the HPTA' is bullshit. 

SARMs lowered LH in rodents, so they will lower LH in humans. From my research, LH will begin to decrease after 31mg/ED.

----------


## Phate

> Listen people...
> 
> *This whole 'SARMs dont effect the HPTA' is bullshit.* 
> 
> SARMs lowered LH in rodents, so they will lower LH in humans. From my research, LH will begin to decrease after 31mg/ED.


agreed, at least that definitely was my experience

----------


## adam15425

Phate/Swifto .... what do you think the effect would be running <25mg/day during PCT?

----------


## Slide

> Listen people...
> 
> This whole 'SARMs dont effect the HPTA' is bullshit. 
> 
> SARMs lowered LH in rodents, so they will lower LH in humans. From my research, LH will begin to decrease after 31mg/ED.


Swifto - What would you suggest at this point as far as PCT? I just started HCG today. I was thinking since i have not been taking HCG while on SARMS I should do 500IU every few days?

thanks you know you are the PCT master

----------


## xpridex

Ive been silent about this issue because we are bombarded with the supposedly positive things of SARMS .

my experience was anything but positive.

On the 3rd week of the PCT was going smoothly than I add sarms to bridge till next cycle and it was a disaster.

I started to feel quiete suppressed, with no libido and to me it actually had testicular atrophy that i didnt had in the cycle..

Now I see this bloodwork and make sense..

----------


## Steroidman99

> *ALSO, I would not trust any info from a guy that gave this advice ON A DECA AND WINNY CYCLE THAT LOOKED LIKE THIS:*
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> 5,7 160LB 31 years old (4 years in the gym) 
> 
> I will start my injection cycle next week and it is as follow:
> 
> week1 deca 250ml / wistrol 100ml
> ...


What did I say wrong, please??? I commented the idea of a Deca+Winstrol cycle, not the doses (that he didn't list in Winstrol anyway.)

----------


## Equiguns

If you had to run only one for PCT after S4 would it be nolva or clomid? or something else?

----------


## Phate

> Phate/Swifto .... what do you think the effect would be running <25mg/day during PCT?


*Hard to say for me as i haven't read the research lately, but i know of a 300page study written by an Ivy League school on S4 if anyone is interested*




> Swifto - What would you suggest at this point as far as PCT? I just started HCG today. I was thinking since i have not been taking HCG while on SARMS I should do 500IU every few days?
> 
> thanks you know you are the PCT master


*i'll bump this for the PCT master*





> What did I say wrong, please??? I commented the idea of a Deca+Winstrol cycle, not the doses (that he didn't list in Winstrol anyway.)


*You do know that 100mg of deca will shut you down COMPLETELY for over a month right? Then you want to add winstrol(which is one of the hepatotoxic compounds mg vs. mg) and all this without test???*




> If you had to run only one for PCT after S4 would it be nolva or clomid? or something else?


i ran nolva/clomid like i would for a test only cycle, 4 weeks, preloaded first week

----------


## Steroidman99

> You do know that 100mg of deca will shut you down COMPLETELY for over a month right? Then you want to add winstrol(which is one of the hepatotoxic compounds mg vs. mg) and all this without test???


Dear gentlemen, this is already insane, really. If you read his question, he worried about hair loss. Hence adding testosterone would be one of the worst things he could do, especially with Winstrol . 

Furthermore, testosterone will only exacerbate endogenous test suppression, and Winstrol doesn't have to be taken in high doses, especially in this potent combination. 30 mg/day should be enough. Personally I don't like Winstrol, because I know better steroids with much less sides. But Winstrol and Deca should potentiate each other and at the same time, nullify their most serious side effects (gyno, joint pain). So this is not a bad combination at all. The only reason, why I myself wouldn't run it, is the fact that I already have a better, safer substitute for Winstrol - Anavar . 

If he wants to prevent test suppression, he can take HCG throughout the cycle (but this will potentially worsen androgenic side effects). And if he doesn't feel fine due to test suppression, he simply won't take this combination again. That's simple, easy to understand, isn't it?

I expect that test suppression with this combination (without HCG) will be pretty dramatic (even Winstrol alone is very suppressive), but he has not many choices anyway, because high sex drive + low androgenic effects simply don't go well together. If he wants to grow, he must sacrifice something. (I now recall T-bol as a very mild "sexual potency elevator", but it also depends on, if he wants to run two orals or not.)

----------


## Phate

> Dear gentlemen, this is already insane, really. If you read his question, he worried about hair loss. Hence adding testosterone would be one of the worst things he could do, especially with Winstrol . 
> *No, adding a dht based would be the worst thing he could do, but considering he has finasteride(which blocks 5 alpha reductase, therefore reducing conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone) he shouldn't have too many problems 
> *
> Furthermore, testosterone will only exacerbate endogenous test suppression, and Winstrol doesn't have to be taken in high doses, especially in this potent combination. 
> *Exacerbate endogenous test surpression? DECA COMPLETELY SHUTS YOU DOWN, YOU HAVE NO ENDOGENOUS TEST TO MESS UP IF CYCLE DECA!!!*
> 30 mg/day should be enough. Personally I don't like Winstrol, because I know better steroids with much less sides. But Winstrol and Deca should potentiate each other and at the same time, nullify their most serious side effects.*Aww, they SHOULD huh? studies please that show synergistic effects?* So this is not a bad combination at all. The only reason, why I myself wouldn't run it, is the fact that I already have a better, safer substitute for Winstrol - Anavar . 
> *Better safer substitute? Winstrol is used primarily to create hardness while anavar is used for lean gains, but doesn't cause "hardening" or "drying out" A better safer substitute would be masteron(though not for the OP)*
> If he wants to prevent test suppression, he can take HCG throughout the cycle (but this will potentially worsen androgenic side effects). And if he doesn't feel fine due to test suppression, he simply won't take this combination again. That's simple, easy to understand, isn't it?


At the end it sounds like you are trying to leave yourself a way out incase he gets bad results from this cycle, how bout you run this cycle first with bloodwork and a picture log?

----------


## adam15425

> *Hard to say for me as i haven't read the research lately, but i know of a 300page study written by an Ivy League school on S4 if anyone is interested*


Yes, very interested

----------


## Vettester

^^ x2 ^^

----------


## Phate

> Yes, very interested





> ^^ x2 ^^


shoot me a pm to remind me and i'll post it when i'm on later

----------


## Steroidman99

> At the end it sounds like you are trying to leave yourself a way out incase he gets bad results from this cycle, how bout you run this cycle first with bloodwork and a picture log?


Why should he have bad results from this cycle? In terms of strength, he will have only positive ones. Well, there are people, who measure anabolic effect according to the amount of water they absorbed, but I don't belong to them, unfotunately...

----------


## Equiguns

> Why should he have bad results from this cycle? In terms of strength, he will have only positive ones. Well, there are people, who measure anabolic effect according to the amount of water they absorbed, but I don't belong to them, unfotunately...


I understand you might have a pharma background so you see deca and winstrol as somehow working well together without test. anabolics and their method of use changes drastically every decade or so. i remember when i was 20 or 21 things were totally different. but for now, all you need to know is- don't run deca or winny alone, and especially the two of them together, alone. you want to run test with either of them, specifically FOR that reason someone stated above (you get shut down). Test DOES shut you down, you're correct, but you do need test don't you??? think of it that way, so you end up needing exogenous sources. I dont think anyone is trying to take your credibility away from you, just correcting your thought process.

----------


## Steroidman99

> Test DOES shut you down, you're correct, but you do need test don't you??? think of it that way, so you end up needing exogenous sources.


But further suppression of endogenous test with exogenous test will make things only worse, won't it?

----------


## Phate

> But further suppression of endogenous test with exogenous test will make things only worse, won't it?


that's the thing bro, testosterone based steroids are much less suppressive(for the most part) than 19-nor based AAS, so yes, i could cause further suppression, but not much because of the suppression from the 19-nor and most people like to have some test in their system(if only a trt dose) to keep them from becoming eunuchs during cycle lol

----------

