# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  Lets stir things up

## saboudian

Alright, it seems like there's alot of threads lately asking "does this split look alright"? And it always seems like everyone responds with a typical "train each body part once per week, bla, bla, bla". I haven't used that typical split in several months and I will never go back to it.

So I am lazy, and i found someone who knows their shit who can explain this better than i can. Anyways, here goes, happy reading.


*written by Doggcrapp, aka Dante*

for more info check out www.animalkits.be and check out the post "cycles on pennies"

enjoy...

It is so tough to talk about training when I am not in front of someone. In real life or at my gym people will see me or someone I train and be convinced that my system works very well. And in person I can explain how it all fits together. But for some 
reason giving an opinion on training online offends a lot of bodybuilders. It is like a blow to their ego as if your putting them down or telling them they don’t know how to train. And then you get every HIT, periodization, and brainwashed Wieder principle
disciple arguing with me why their method is the best and I am wrong. People get pissed if they think what they might be doing training wise is wrong or not the most productive. It's human nature. 

I can continually turn 170lb guys (who go along with me 100%) into 260lb plus monsters over and over but I cannot help guys who are 190-230lbs who are stuck in their ways. Those guys can continue to take the long road or never get there. In the past months since I’ve put my methods out there to view, I continue to hear different arguments against my way of training. Hey it’s radically different than the norm and like I said people can’t stand to think what they are presently doing training wise isn't the best! So far I’ve heard the usual gamut (overtraining, undertraining, undervolume, CNS saturation). One guy who said "not enough stimulation per workout"-sadly he has confused volume to equal gains. 

WRONG!!! If volume = gains go head and do 100 hard setper bodypart and do each bodypart once every 3 weeks. Please tell me what incredible gains you get. 

To me all this is an egotistical way to debunk a radically different method because you don’t want to believe what your presently doing is incorrect or 'slower gaining'. No one is overtraining or undertraining that I train. Every bodybuilder that I have trained has gained at least 47lbs! This sport is full of fragile egos, pseudo-experts, armchair bicep curlers. I am a very advanced bodybuilder but the only thing I am conceited about is I truly believe I could take anybody reading this and turn them int
a 4.0lbs per inch bodybuilder. I love taking a humble bodybuilder who doubts his genetics and making him the largest guy in his gym. That is so fun for me.

I love the people who whisper in the corners that "he must be loaded to the hilt" yet he is on the same things they are. I love hearing the petty jealousy and anger that comes over other bodybuilders now that the guy I trained is the big boy on the block. I’m not pushing my methods on anyone. I want you to decide for yourself with deductive reasoning, but if you have been lifting for 4-5 years and people aren't commenting, stating or asking questions about you being a bodybuilder on a daily basis-I think that’s embarrassing and you might want to question if what you are doing training wise has merit. 

I only train hardcore bodybuilders (and some fitness girls) down here in So Cal. (its not my main job--I turn down about 90% of people due to my own personal reasons--which are mostly after interviewing them I feel they wont do what I say 100%) I am
very, very good at turning normal people into the biggest bodybuilders in their area. I’ve trained 7 people bodybuilding wise in the last 4 years (5 used super supplements 2 were clean). Every one of those people gained at least 47lbs on their bodyweigh
at roughly the same or less bodyfat.

1)188 to 260(2.5 years) 
2)172 to 254 (3 years) 
3)208 to 261(clean! genetic mesomorph 1 year) 
4)218 to 275 (cut his juice in half, doubled his protein, showed him how to train correctly-2 years) 

I don’t like to comment on others training philosophies directly because they get so offended if you don’t agree with them. I believe when you make something too complicated or hard people don’t want to follow it. I believe the baseline training protocol for bodybuilding is "progression" and whatever training is needed to get stronger (and therefore bigger). Here is my personal opinion on volume training...it’s a way for people who cannot generate inhuman intensity during a set to make gains. If that seems like a "putdown" so be it, I am sorry. Volume training to me is the long way to achieve trauma whereas there are shorter more productive ways of going about it. 

If you were a world class sprinter with a time a couple tenths off the world record what would you do to break the mark? Would you run 5k races and repeated sprints at 60% intensity for hours at a time? Would that make you any faster? Or would you push 
intensity limits with a wind bearing running parachute and do explosive sprints as hard as you can? You tell me.

I say 60% intensity with volume training because I know this: You cannot do 20 sets for a bodypart at a balls to the wall all out intensity-it’s impossible. I know this about myself, if I truly squat with everything I have (where its rep or death), with an extremely heavy weight and at 12reps I want to quit.....but somehow, someway I make myself do 13, then the 14th, the 15th--my face is now beet red and I’m breathing like a locomotive yet I 'will' myself to do another rep, another, another---with two more reps to go till 20, I feel faint but I am going to fucking do it because "I am not driving my car home thinking how I pussed out and didn’t make it"....19.....and 20 goes up agonizing slow and I am thinking to myself "oh please, please go up"----done!
ten minutes later I couldn’t even attempt to try to duplicate that. Not even close. I bet I would make it to maybe 14 reps tops. If you could duplicate that same set you are a robot. 

Ninety percent of people in gyms around the world are doing some form of volume training but besides the rare genetically elite and heavy steroid users, why does everyone stay the same size year after year? (With volume training you see a lot of overtraining, joint injuries and people who are burning up all their energy stores) If you can't train at above normal intensity levels I feel volume training is beneficial to cause trauma (hey it works for genetic freaks like Flex Wheeler and Paul Dillett--two half-ass 60% trainers if that). Too bad with their incredible genetics that they don’t have the hardcore mindset of a Yates or Coleman who bypass them by force of willpower and effort. Personally I like the shortest route at the shortest time possible to 
the someplace. Do I think my way of training is the best? For myself and the people I train-yes. I have no way to gauge others intensity levels online. Someone training at 90% intensity for 6 sets is going to get more out of it than Joe Blow who is doing 
sets per bodypart at forty percent. In the simplest terms, no matter what way you train-if you are way stronger than last year, 6 months ago, 3 months ago, last month, last week you are getting continually bigger no doubt about it. A lot of modern day 
aining has been evolved pretty much from what Arnold and bodybuilders of the 60's did---and Arnold just winged it--there was no thought provoking science there. I want people to think their training out. 

1)If you train a bodypart every day you will overtrain and not get larger 

2)If you train a bodypart once a month you will not overtrain but you will only be growing 12 times a year besides the atrophy between workouts (pretty much a snails pace)

3)If you train with 30 sets a bodypart it will take you a great deal of time to recover from that besides using up a great deal of energy and protein resources doing it (and maybe even muscle catabolism will take place) 

4)If you train one set for a very easy 8 reps per bodypart you could train that bodypart more often but you didn’t tax yourself to get larger.

So what is the answer? I’ll tell you the answer! The answer is doing the least amount of heavy intense training that makes you dramatically stronger (bigger) so you can recover and train that bodypart the most times in a year (frequency). If you can train
/recover/GROW,train /recover/GROW,train/recover/ GROW as many times as possible in a years time--you will be essentially gaining twice as fast as the bodybuilders around you.

Ok back to my training concepts—I’ve stated how my whole goal is to continually get stronger on key exercises which equals getting continually bigger. I will state this, the method I am about to describe to you is what I have found that makes people gro
at the absolutely fastest rate possible and why I am being inundated down in this area to train people. It’s going to go against the grain but I'm making people grow about 2 times as fast the normal rate so bear with me. 

A typical workout for the masses is (lets use chest for an example) doing a bodypart once every 7 days and sometimes even once every 9 days or more. This concept came to the front due to recovery reasoning and I agree with most typical workouts your going
to need a great deal of recovery. Here’s the problem, lets say you train chest once a week for a year and you hypothetically gain 1/64 of an inch in pectoral thickness from each workout. At the end of the year you should be at 52/64 (or 13/16 ). Almost an inch of thickness (pretty good). 

To build muscle we are trying to lift at a high enough intensity and load to grow muscle but with enough recovery so the muscle remodels and grows. The problem is everyone is loading up on the volume end of training and its taking away from the recovery
art of it. Incredible strength GAINS will equal incredible size GAINS. And you sure as hell don’t need to do 3-5 exercises and 10-20 sets per bodypart to do that! In actuality you really don’t need to do much to grow. As long as your training weights continue to rocket upward you will always be gaining muscle. If you go in and do squats using your ultimate effort with 405lbs for 20 reps are you going to say you’re not going to grow from that? If you went all out on that effort, I'm sorry but throwing half ass, leg press, leg extensions and lunges into that same workout is going to do nothing but royally lengthen your recovery process when you were already going to grow in the first place. 

You can train in a way so you can train a bodypart 3 times every nine to fourteen days and you will recover and grow faster than ever before. If you train chest 3 times in 9-14 days you are now doing chest roughly 91-136 times a year! So instead of 40-52
growth phases with regular once a week training you are now getting 91-136 growth phases a year. I personally would rather grow 91-136 times a year than 40-52 times a year. At a hypothetical 1/64th of an inch per workout you are now at 136/64 (or roughly 2.1 inches of thickness). So now you’re growing at roughly two times as fast as normal people who are doing modern day workouts are. Most people train chest with 3 to 4 exercises and wait the 7-9 days to recover and that is one growth phase. I use the same three exercises in that same 9-14 days but do chest 3 times during that (instead of once) and get 3 growth phases. How? Super heavy weights for low low volume so you can recover and train that bodypart again as quickly as possible.

Everyone knows a muscle either contracts or doesn’t, you cannot isolate a certain part of it (you can get into positions that present better mechanical advantages though that puts a focus on certain deep muscle fibers)--for example incline presses vs flat presses. One huge mistake beginning bodybuilders make is they have a "must" principle instilled in them. They feel they "must" do this exercise and that exercise or they won’t grow. 

This is how I set bodybuilders workouts up. I have them pick either their 3 favorite exercises for each bodypart or better yet the exercises they feel will bring up their weaknesses the most. For me my chest exercises are high incline smith machine press,
hammer seated flat press and slight incline smith press with hands very, very wide----this is because I look at my physique and I feel my problem area is upper and outer pecs---that is my focus. What you do is take these three exercises and rotate them
using only one per chest workout. I would do high incline smith on my first chest day, then 3-4 days later I would do hammer seated flat press on my second chest day. Three to four days after that wide grip slight incline smith press would be done and then the whole cycle is repeated again in 3-4 days.
Whenever I train someone new I have them do the following --4 times training in 8 days---with straight sets. Sometimes with rest pause sets but we have to gauge the recovery ability first. 

Day one would be Monday and would be: 

Chest 
shoulders 
triceps 
back width 
back thickness 

Day two would be Wednesday and would be 

biceps 
forearms 
calves 
hams 
quads 

Day three would be Friday and would be the same as day one but with different exercises

chest 
shoulders 
triceps 
back width 
back thickness 

(sat+sun off) 

Day four would be the following Monday and would be the same as day two but with different exercises

biceps 
forearms 
calves 
hams 
quads 

and so on Wenesday, Friday, Monday, Wenesday etc. 

You’re hitting every bodypart twice in 8 days. The volume on everything is simply as many warmup sets as you need to do- to be ready for your ONE work set. That can be two warmup sets for a small muscle group or five warmup sets for a large muscle group
n heavy exercise like rack deadlifts. The ONE work set is either a straight set or a rest pause set (depending on your recovery abilities again). For people on the lowest scale of recovery its just that one straight set---next up is a straight set with statics for people with slightly better than that recovery----next up is rest pausing (on many of the of movements) with statics for people with middle of the road recovery on up. 
As you progress as a bodybuilder you need to take even more rest time and recovery time. 

READ THAT AGAIN PLEASE AS YOU PROGRESS AS A BODYBUILDER IN SIZE AND STRENGTH YOU NEED TO TAKE EVEN MORE REST AND RECOVERY TIME. EXAMPLE: 

My recovery ability is probally slightly better now than when I started lifting 13 years ago but only slightly...but back then I was benching 135lbs and squatting 155lbs in my first months of lifting. Now I am far and away the strongest person in my gym using poundages three to six times greater than when I first started lifting. With my recovery ability being what it is both then and now, do you think I need more time to recover from a 155lb squat for 8 reps or a 500LB squat for 8 reps? Obviously the answer is NOW! Yet remember this -the more times you can train a bodypart in a years time and recover will mean the fastest growth possible! I’ve done the training a bodypart every 10 days system in the past and while recovering from that--the gains were so slow over time I got frustrated and realized the frequency of growth phases(for me)was to low. I want to gain upwards of 104 times a year instead of 52--the fastest rate that I can accumulate muscle (YET AGAIN WITHIN ONES RECOVERY ABILITY-I CANT SAY THAT ENOUGH) 

I have been slowly changing my philosophies of training over the past 13 years to where I am now. I’ve been gaining so fast the last couple of years it’s been pretty amazing. I’ve got my training down to extremely low volume (a rest pause set or ONE straight set) with extreme stretching, and with recovery issues always in the back of my mind. 

I realize the number one problem in this sport that will make or break a bodybuilder is overtraining. Simply as this--you overtrain your done as a bodybuilder gainwise. Kaput. Zip. A waste of valuable time. But I also think there is a problem with underfrequency (only if you can train hardcore enough with extremely low volume to recover). I skirt right along the line of overtraining--I am right there...I’ve done everything in my power (Stretching, glutamine, "super supplements", sleep)to keep me on this side of the line and its worked for me. I believe everyone has different recovery abilities--the job of a bodybuilder is to find out what their individual recovery ability is and do the least amount of hardcore training to grow so they can train that bodypart as frequently as possible. For anyone who wants to follow my lead that would mean starting out with straight sets training 4 times in 8 days and strictly gauging yourself recovery wise with every step up you take (statics, rest pauses)--I would rather you wait until my next article comes out to go over the details of this kind of training before you attempt it--as its important to me that everyone who wants to do this does it correctly.

Bodybuilding as a whole is extreme and you must go to extreme lengths to be an out of the ordinary bodybuilder in this activity. The human body in no way wants to be 270 to 330 lbs of extreme muscularity. It wants to be a comfortable 155 to 180 lbs and it'll do a lot to keep a person at that homeostasis level. Jon Parillo was on the right track years ago when he was trying to make bodybuilders into food processing factories. It takes extreme amounts of food (protein), extremely heavy weights, sometimes extreme supplementation, (the choice) of extreme drugs, and other extreme situations to take a person who by evolution and genetics should be 180 pounds and make him into a hardcore 3 hundred pounds. OK first I have to go over some principles I believe in regarding training and I’ll hit more on training details later on.

a) I believe he who makes the greatest strength gains (in a controlled fashion) as a bodybuilder, makes the greatest muscle gains. Note: I said strength gains--everyone knows someone naturally strong who can bench 400 yet isn't that big. Going from a beginning 375 bench to 400 isn't that great of a strength gain and won’t result in much of a muscle gain. But if I show you someone who went from 150 to 400 on a bench press, that guy will have about 2.5 inches more of muscle thickness on his pecs. That is 
incredible strength gain and will equal out into an incredible muscle gain. Ninety-nine percent of bodybuilders are brainwashed that they must go for a blood pump and are striving for that effect--(go up and down on your calves 500 times and tell me if
our calves got any bigger). And those same 99% in a gym stay the same year after year. It's because they have no plan, they go in, get a pump and leave. They give the body no reason to change. Powerbodybuilders and powerlifters plan to continually get stronger and stronger on key movements. The body protects itself from ever increasing loads by getting muscularly bigger=adaption. I’M going to repeat this and hammer it home because of its importance: 

THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE GREATEST STRENGTH GAINS OVER TIME WILL MAKE THE GREATEST SIZE GAINS OVER TIME ACCORDING TO THEIR GENETIC POTENTIAL.

If you reading this never get anywhere close to your ultimate strength levels (AT WHATEVER REP RANGE) you will never get to your utmost level of potential size. 

b) I haven't seen a guy who can squat 500 for 20 reps, bench press 500 for 15 and deadlift 500 for 15 who was small yet ---but I have seen a lot and I mean a lot of people in the gym and on these Internet forums that are a buck 65 or two and change, shouting that you don't have to lift heavy to get big (in rare cases you will see a naturally strong powerlifter who has to curb calories to stay in a weight class and that is the reason he doesn't get bigger).

c) Training is all about adaption. In simple terms you lift a weight and your muscle has one of 2 choices, either tear completely under the load (which is incredibly rare and what we don't want) or the muscle lifts the weight and protects itself by remodeling and getting bigger to protect itself against the load(next time). If the weight gets heavier, the muscle has to again remodel and get bigger again to handle it. You can superset, superslow, giant set, pre exhaust all day long but the infinite adaption is load---meaning heavier and heavier weights is the only infinite thing you can do in your training. Intensity is finite. Volume is finite (or infinite if you want to do 9000 sets per bodypart)...everything else is finite. The Load is infinite and heavier and heavier weights used (I DON'T GIVE A CRAP WHAT SCHMUK 58 POUND WRITER FROM FLEX MAGAZINE SAYS) will make the biggest bodybuilder (add high protein, glutamine and drugs to the mix and you have one large person). 

d) The largest pro bodybuilders in the last 10 years (outside of Paul Dillett who is a genetic alien and I think could grow off of mowing lawns) are also the very strongest (Kovacs, Prince, Coleman, Yates, Francois, Nasser (although he trains lighter now). For anyone who argues that they have seen so and so pro bodybuilder and he trains light-well I will bet you he isn't gaining rapid size anymore and that his greatest size increases were when he was training shit heavy going for his pro card. Of course he will convince himself and others that he is "making the best gains of his career" though because no one likes to think what they are presently doing isn't working and they are running in place. 

Sadly heavy drug use can make up for a lot of training fallacies and leave people still uninformed on how they became massive. Ronnie Coleman is definitely in an elite class of muscle building genetically yet do you see him doing isolation exercises with light weights to be the most massive bodybuilder on this planet? NOPE! Ever see his video? 805 deadlifts for 2 reps, 765 for 6 reps deads, front s
ats with 600LBS for 6, 200LB dumbbells being thrown all over the place for chest, military presses 315 for 12 and a double with 405. I believe Coleman was clean or close to it when he was powerlifting and when he was an amateur bodybuilder. He won the Natural Team Universe and got his pro card at roughly 220-230LBS shredded to the bone and if that was natural or close to it--that's about 270LBS offseason and would be a huge natural bodybuilder. Since that time he has hooked up with Chad Nichols and blasted (with juice) up to his current 265LBS contest weight and 320LBS offseason. He trains heavier now than he ever did! The man has used extremely heavy weights and powerlifting fundamentals (even with his superior genetics for muscle size) to become the most impressive bodybuilder walking the globe. Well, if the man with some of the best genetics to build muscle out there is using back breaking weights trying to get bigger isn't that more of a reason the mere mortals of genetics in this sport should maybe take note? There are other pros out there with genetics on par with Coleman and using the same amount of drugs yet aren't pushing the limits with poundage's in training as does Coleman. You figure it out then, why is he absolutely crushing everyone onstage by outmuscling them if all things besides training are equal? 

e) Who is the last incredibly massive bodybuilder you have seen (juice or not) who couldn't incline 405, squat 550, deadlift 550. I am talking freak-massive ALA Dorian, Kovacs, Francois, etc...there are slew of guys in gyms using mega amounts of steroids on par with pros who are no where close to a pro's size, some with mediocre genetics, yet some with superb genetics. But the pro's using weights that are up there in the stratosphere are by and large the most freakish. These are pros we are talking about, who all have superior genetics for muscle accumulation. Do you think Yates, Francois, Cormier etc all just had natural genetics for incredible strength, not ever having to work for it? Je Paul Guilliame is the only clean professional bodybuilder I ever trusted to be truly natural. The man is a smaller pro training without the juice yet trains incredibly heavy for his size--405LB squats rock bottom for up to 20 reps and his wheels are incredible. Flex Wheeler and Cris Cormier are the same height, the drugs are equal, Flex trains light, Cormier trains heavy. Cormier outweighs Wheeler onstage by 30LBS! Genetically, Wheeler is unsurpassed in pro bodybuilding, I think you already know the answer to this one--case closed. I usually don't like to use pro bodybuilders for examples but in these cases, my points are proven.

For those training clean-if you got guys doing massive amounts of steroids in gyms around America, who are not putting on appreciable size because they train with light weights, what in your right mind could make you think you will gain appreciable amounts of muscle mass as a natural training light?!?! One million people in the United States have admitted to using steroids--1 million!!! That is one out of every 300 people walking around. How many big people do you see out there? Not many. It sure isn't close to 1 million---- because 98% of bodybuilders have no clue what needs to be done training and eating wise to become elite.

f) Please think of the times when you made the best size gains---the first time is in the first 2 years of lifting WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR BEST STRENGTH GAINS TOO! Then things start to slow down.. What's the next time?--You start using steroids and boom what happens? YOUR TRAINING WEIGHTS GO FLYING UP. And you get dramatically bigger! (I’M taking into effect protein assimilation, recovery etc also). The greatest strength gains you make will result in also the most rapid size gains (if you’re taking in the protein requirements of a 12 year old girl scout then you can discount yourself from the above group). 

g) I believe in Powerbuilding not bodybuilding--using techniques that build the most strength gains in the fastest time possible while using the most effective exercises for that person. I am positive I could take 2 twins--have the first one do his own thing training wise, but using the same drugs, supplements and nutrition as the twin I train......come back a year later and the twin I trained would have 25LBS more muscle. 

h) I've seen powerlifters (who catch a lot of guff from bodybuilders for being "fat") diet down and come in and destroy bodybuilders in bodybuilding shows time and time again. Over and over. Powerlifters and Powerbodybuilders are by far the thickest guys onstage when and if they decide to enter bodybuilding shows.

i) Heavy is relative--it doesn't mean 3 reps --- it means as heavy as you can go on that exercise no matter if it is 5 reps or 50 reps. I personally like to do hack squats for 20 reps but I use about 6 plates on each side rock bottom--that's as heavy as I can go on that exercise for 20 reps. I could do sets of 6 and probably use maybe 8 or 9 plates a side but my legs (and most people I train) grow best from heavy and 8-50 reps. The day you can squat 400LBS for 20 deep reps will be the day you are no longer complaining about your leg size.

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## saboudian

j) No matter what the method someone uses to gain super strength gains-it’s imperative they do so. Again if you put someone out on a deserted island with 135LBS of weights he can superset, giant set, high rep, superslow set etc etc squats, deadlifts and benches to his hearts delight...the sad story is his gains will quickly come to a halt because his limiting factor is the amount of strength he will gain. He has 135LBS to work with. You take that same guy on a deserted island and give him squats deadlifts, and benches and an unlimited weight supply that he constantly pushes, in 5 years I'll show you a big Gilligan.

k) I think the biggest fallacy in bodybuilding is "changing up" "keeping the body off balance"--you can keep the body off balance by always using techniques or methods that give your body a reason to get bigger=strength. If you don't write down your weights and every time you enter the gym you go by feel and do a different workout (like 98% of the gym members who never change do now) what has that done? Lets say Mr. Hypothetical gym member does 235 for 9 on the bench press this week, "tries to keep his body guessing" by doing 80LBS for 13 on flyes next week, 205 for 11 on inclines the week after, 245 on hammer press for 12 the week after that --and so on and so on---there is only a limited number of exercises you can do. Two months later when he does bench presses again and does 235 for 8 or 9 has he gained anything? Absolutely NOT! Four months later he does hammer presses for 245 for 11 (again) do you think he has given his body any reason to change? Take 2 twins and have one do a max squat for 20 reps and the other twin giant set 4 leg exercises with the same weight. All year long have the first twin blast away until he brings his squat with 20 reps from 185LBS to 400LBS. Have the second twin giant set four exercises every workout with the same weight he used in his first workout all year long. Believe me he is always going to be sore and he will be shocking the body every time but the sad truth is he will not gain shit after about the third leg workout because the load didn't change. There is no reason for his legs to grow in size due to the strength demand presented. The first twin who can now squat 400 for 20 is going to have some incredible wheels. 

l) I use a certain method in my training because in my opinion it is the utmost method to rapidly gain
strength. More on that later. Others might like a different method, that's up to them, doesn't matter as long as they are rapidly gaining strength. If you’re gaining appreciable strength on an exercise with a certain method I think the ABSOLUTELY WORSE THING YOU CAN DO is to change up right then. Take that exercise and method to its strength limit and when you get there, then change to a different exercise and get strong as hell on that exercise too.

m) For the next few months take note of the people you see in the gym that never change. They will be the ones using the same weight time after time on exercises whenever they are in the gym. These are the people who use 135, 185, 225 on the bench every time its chest day. 

Your best friends in the gym are the 2.5LB plates--your very best buds!!! You put those 2.5LB plates on that bar every time you bench press for 52 weeks and now your bench is 250LBS more at the end of the year! That would equal out to another inch to inch + half thickness on your chest. Can it be done? Probably not at that rate but TRYING TO DO IT will get you a lot bigger than doing what 98% of the people in the gym do. Unless you are gifted genetically to build muscle at a dizzying 
rate (most people aren't), the largest people in your gym will also be the ones heaving up the heaviest weights. Do you think they started out that way? No, they were probably 175 lb guys who bulldozed their way up to that level. 

A perfect example are male strippers. These guys use a boatload of drugs on par with hardcore competitive bodybuilders. After an initial phase where they grow off of steroids like everyone else--their growth stops (like forever). Why? Because they aren't eating 500 grams of protein a day and don't fight and claw their way to 500LB bench presses and 700LB squats and deadlifts. They stay on the drugs for years and years while stripping but don't go beyond that 200 to 220LB range. So much for juice being the total equalizer. I don't know why pseudo experts try to make training such an elite science when in actuality it’s pretty cut and dry. If you keep a training log and note your weights used for the next 5 years and find they are still the same you will pretty much look "still the same" in 5 years. If you double all your poundage's in the next five years in everything, your going to be one thick person .....If someone ever took a ratio of people who don't make gains to people who do, it would be pitiful. I would venture to say tha
95% of people in gyms across this country aren't gaining muscle and are wasting their time. 

The absolutely best advice I could ever give a guy starting out lifting is "go train with an established powerlifter" and learn all the principles he trains with
There would be a lot more happy bodybuilders out there.

So now you guys know I believe in the heaviest training possible (safely)---I think I hammered that home, I needed to do that because so many bodybuilders are lost on how to get from A to Z.....it’s all part of my quest to make the biggest heavy slag ir
lifting, high protein eating, stretching and recuperating massive bodybuilders I can.-- till next time-DOGG 

*Part 2*
Now to get into specifics regarding training. Stay with me here. You are only doing one exercise per muscle group per day. You are doing your first favorite exercise for chest on day one, you're doing your second favorite exercise for chest the next time
chest training rolls around and then your third favorite exercise for chest the time after that when chest training rolls around. Then you repeat the entire sequence again. You're doing the same exercises you would be doing anyway in a 7-14 days time and training chest 3 times in that same period with minimal sets so you can recover. You cannot do a 3-5 exercise, 10-20 set chest workout and recover to train chest again 3-4 days later. It's absolutely impossible!! But you can come in and do 2-5 warmup sets up to your heaviest set and then do ONE working set (either straight set or rest paused) all out on that exercise then recover and grow and be ready again 3-4 days later. This kind of training will have you growing as fast as humanly possible. Again the
simple equation is "the most times per year you can train a body part incredibly heavy, with major strength gains, and recover will equal out to the fastest accumulation of muscle mass possible".

Why don't most pros do this kind of training? Why don't they?!?! Because every form of training has been taught to someone, passed down from the magazines for decades with no thought out rhyme or reasons. Every form of modern day training stems from what the guys in the 60's and Arnold was doing. Finally Yates and some others got people thinking about what truly is working when it comes to training. If you think about it-it's ridiculous some of these recommended routines in the magazines. Most training comes from peoples egos. People are so driven and desperate to get big that they believe they MUST do this and MUST do that every workout. Thirty sets here, with multiple exercises to hit every angle there. You know what that does? It dramatically cuts into your recovery ability (never mind amino acid pools and glycogen stores) so you cannot train that body part again in a couple days time. That defeats the purpose of rapid accumulation of muscle mass. I'll state this as a matter of fact because I believe it's true. I believe if you, the person reading this, training the way I am recommending, you will be 20-40lbs of muscle larger in 3 years than if you kept training the way you are presently training. If that offends you or seems ballsy to state-SO BE IT!!! I've done enough studying and real life experimentation to aspiring bodybuilders to state that. 

To start-Three key exercises are picked for each body part. USING ONLY ONE OF THOSE EXERCISES PER WORKOUT you rotate these in order and take that exercise to it's ultimate strength limit (where at that certain point u change the exercise to a new one and get brutally strong on that new movement too). That can happen in 4 weeks or that can happen 2 years later but it will happen some time (You cannot continually gain strength to where you are eventually bench pressing 905 for reps obviously) Sometime later when you come back to that original exercise you will start slightly lower than your previous high and then soar past it without fail. 
Some principles I believe in:

A) I believe rest pausing is the most productive
way of training ever. I've never seen a way to faster strength gains than what comes from rest pausing. I'll use an incline smith bench with a hypothetical weight to show you my recommended way of rest pausing. Warmups would be 135x12, 185x10, 250x6, 315x4 (none of these are taxing--they are just getting me warmed up for my all out rest pause set) MAIN REST PAUSE SET-375x8 reps (total failure) rack the weight, then 15 deep breathes and 375x 2 to 4 reps (total failure) rack the weight, then 15 deep breaths and 375x 1 to 2 reps. I personally do a static right after that but I'll explain that later. Remember every time you go to failure you always finish on the negative portion and have your training partner help you or rack the weight yourself. To explain further on my first rest pause above I struggled with every iota of my strength to get that 8th rep up. At that point instead of racking the weight up top I brought the weight down to my chest again slowly (6 seconds) and had my training partner quickly help me lift the weight back up to the top to rack it. That "always finishing on the negative rep" will accrue more cellular damage over time and allow for even greater gains. 

B) Every exercise is done with a controlled but explosive positive and a true 8 second negative phase. The science is there just read it. Almost every study states an explosive positive motion is the priming phase and the negative portion of an exercise should be done controlled and slowly. I have the mindset that I hope you guys develop. I try so hard to get the weight up only for the sole reason I can lower it slowly to cause eccentric phase cellular damage. 

C) Extreme Stretching: it must be done, it's imperative. It stretches fascia and helps recovery immensely. It will dramatically change your physique in a short amount of time if done right, trust me on that. I hit on it in the first article of this series. OK you guys have to use some deductive reasoning here. If I do a 375 or so LB smith incline press rest paused for 10-15 reps with statics on Monday morning (which is the time of day I lift) by that same Monday night, 12 hours later I am viscously sore. By Tuesday morning I am still pretty sore but to a lesser degree. By Tuesday night I have very little soreness. By Wednesday morning I have absolutely no soreness and Wednesday night the same, so I could probably train chest again on Thursday no problem but I currently wait till Friday and train chest again. 

If your training chest on Monday and on Thursday your still pretty sore, a couple things are happening--either you're training with more volume than I recommend, or you're not extreme stretching (as recommended in my first article for AE), or more likely your recovery ability is not your greatest asset. If the last one is true you are going to have to take note of that and broaden the workout days between bodyparts hit. 

Most of you reading this (90%) will be able to go the Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Monday again route hitting bodyparts twice in 8 days. A chosen few m
ht be able to go Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday especially if they really work their extreme stretching and get the proper rest. That's very rare though that someone can recover that quickly even from one working set per bodypart. My recommendations 
e to start out Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Monday first and gauge how that goes. I am currently seeing that most people go best with that protocol. I know some of you want to train a bodypart as many times as possible in a weeks time, hell I would love to be able to train a bodypart 4 times a week and grow but it can't be done. 

So this is something I can't help you on.....you need to check yourself and find out where you are recovering and then work with that. I can do a 20 plate leg press for reps and be sore for the next day and a half and feel fresh and ready to go on my next leg day. High dose glutamine has been a godsend to my recovery ability as has extreme stretching. My training weights continue to rocket upward on everything. What I cannot do is leg exercises for multiple sets in a workout session and recover 3-4 days later to do legs again. I think you're begging for injury if you are still very, very sore the next time a body part comes up. 

Example Day one 
First exercise smith incline presses (I'll use the weights I use for example) 

135 for warmup for 12
185 for 8 warmup
250 for 6 warmup
315 for 4 warmup
Then all out with 375 for 8 reps to total absolute failure (then 12-15 deep breaths) 375 for 2-4 reps to total absolute failure (then 12-15 deep breaths) 375 for 1-3 reps to absolute total failure (then a 20-30 second static hold) DONE!-that's it 375lbs
or 8+4+3= 375 for 15 reps rest paused..... next week I go for 385 (again rest paused)-----directly after that rest pause set I go to extreme stretching flyes as described earlier and then that's it for chest and on to shoulders, triceps and back. 

The next time I come in to do chest I would do hammer flat presses in the same rest paused manner (and then extreme stretching again)---the time after that I come in to do chest I would do my third favorite exercise rest paused/stretched and then the cycle repeats. 

In simple terms I am using techniques with extreme high intensity(rest pause) which I feel make a persons strength go up as quickly as possible + low volume so I can (recover) as quickly as possible with as many growth phases (damage/remodel/recover) I 
can do in a years time.

Some exercises involving legs and some back rowing exercises don't allow themselves to rest pause too well. A sample couple of days for me would be the following (IM not including warmup sets--just working sets). 

Workout 1 

CHEST: smith incline 375 x 15 reps rest pause (RP) and a 30 second static rep at the end (then stretches)
SHOULDERS: front smith press-330 x 13 RP and 30 second static (then stretches)
TRICEPS: reverse grip bench press 315 for 15-20 reps RP-no static (then stretches)
BACK WIDTH: rear pulldowns to back of head 300 x 18 RP (20 second static at end) 
BACK THICKNESS: floor deadlifts straight set of 8-20 reps (then stretches for back)

Workout 2 
BICEPS: preacher bench barbell curl RP for 14 reps and 30 second static
FOREARMS: hammer curls straight set for 15 reps (then stretches for biceps)
CALVES: on hack squat straight set for 12 reps but with a 20 second negative phase 
HAMSTRINGS: Cybex hamstring press (pressing with heels up top) RP for 20 reps 
QUADS: hack squat straight set of 6 plates each side for 20 reps (of course after warming up) Then stretches for quads and hams. 


The absolutely most important thing of any of this is I write down all weights and reps done from the working set on a notepad. So every time I go into the gym I have to continually look back and beat the previous times reps/weight or both. If I can't or I don't beat it, no matter if I love doing the exercise or not, I have to change to a new exercise. Believe me this adds a grave seriousness, a clutch performance or imperativeness to a workout! I have exercises I love to do and knowing I will lose them if I don't beat the previous stats sucks! But there is a method to this madness because when you get to that sticking point on strength (AND YOU WILL, THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN HACK SQUAT UP TO 50 PLATES A SIDE) that is when your muscle=strength gains will stop. At that point you must turn to a different exercise and then get brutally strong on that one. Then someday you will peak out on that one too. You can always come back to that loved exercise in the future and you'll start somewhat lower and build up to a peak again--and trust me that peak will be far more than the previous one. Some exercises you'll stay with and gain strength at for almost up to a year and some exercises you'll be at the limit in 4 weeks and lose them but its all in the plan. For example-- I love reverse grip bench presses, knowing that I have to beat 315 for 17 reps RP or else I have to change to maybe dips next time puts a serious sense of urgency into workouts. I either have to beat it by doing something to the effect of 320 for 15 RP or if I stick with 315, I have to get at least 19 reps RP or so. If I'm feeling crappy or having an off day I might give myself a little leeway and allow myself another go at it next time around but that's it. 

The notepad is your intensity level, how badly you want to keep doing an exercise will be how hard you push to beat the previous. Looking at that piece of paper knowing what you have to do to beat it will bring out the best in you. Again, it's all in the plan to make you the strongest bodybuilder possible which will equal out into the biggest bodybuilder possible. 

I find myself irritated now when people look at me and say "genetics" or something to that effect--its amazing to me that at 19 I was 6 foot and 137lbs (yes 137) and eating 6 meals a day and people would chuckle at me the stickboy trying to be a bodybuilder. I seriously did not miss a meal for my first 3 and a half years, I would set my alarm at 2am and wake up and eat scrambled eggs and pancakes if I missed a meal during the day. Two years later I looked "normal" at 196lbs or so. Two years just to look like a normal person! I kept bombing away, eating and not taking no as an answer and now I am up at 300lbs and people say "you must have always been big" and genetics. That's tough for me to hear thinking how psyched I was to weigh more than 170 at one point. 

I've only trained one true mesomorph. Mesomorphs don't need trainers usually. I train ectomorphs and endomorphs. The last 3 people I've trained have been a pudgy Mexican who was 172 (now 258lbs hard)--a skinny marine, and a guy stuck at 188lbs for many years (now 260). These people all thought the same thing seeing how my workouts were set up-"am I doing enough?"--If you can show someone how to train so hard that they realize they were holding back tremendously during their 8-20 set workouts, that's half the battle. The other half is making them realize
how impossible it is to do 8-20 sets per bodypart if you truly, truly train balls to the wall hard. 

Personally, if I do a 20 rep hack squat with slag iron heavy weights....at 10 reps I am seriously doubting I am going to make it---at 14 reps IM seeing colors---at 17 reps IM asking God for help--and the last 3 reps are life, death, or rigor mortis---I know for a fact that there is no way in hell I could do another 4-5 sets of hacks like that. I gave everything I had right there on that set. If I can do another 4-5 sets like that I'm cruising at 70% at the most. If all you get out of my articles is the mindset of heavy weights, low volume, stretching, and frequency of body parts trained-I would be very happy because then I would have you on the right path to get you where you want to be.

----------


## saboudian

*Additional info*

doggcrapp is really cool. although he sells his personal training, he gives all his ideas away for free. if you can stick to his program, and incorporate ALL OF IT, you will do very well.

examples of his "_extreme stretches_"

chest=flat bench 90lb dumbells chest high--lungs full of air--first 10 seconds drop down into deepest stretch and then next 50 seconds really push the stretch (this really really hurts) but do it faithfully and come back in this message board in 4 weeks and tell me if your chest isn't much fuller and rounder 

triceps-seated on a flat bench-my back up against the barbell---75lb dumbell in my hand behind my head(like in an overhead dumbell extension)--sink dumbell down into position for the first 10 seconds and then an agonizing 50 seconds slightly leaning back and pushing the dumbell down with the back of my head 

shoulders-this one is tough to describe--put barbell in squat rack shoulder height--face away from it and reach back and grab it palms up (hands on bottom of bar)---walk yourself outward until you are on your heels and the stretch gets painfull--then roll your shoulders downward and hold for 60 seconds 

biceps--just like the above position but hold barbell palms down now (hands on top of bar)--sink down in a squatting position first and if you can hack it into a kneeling position and then if you can hack that sink your butt down--60 seconds--I cannot make it 60 seconds--i get to about 45--its too painfull--if you can make it 60 seconds you are either inhuman or you need to raise the bar up another rung 

back--honestly for about 3 years my training partner and I would hang a 100lb dumbell from our waist and hung on the widest chinup bar (with wrist straps) to see who could get closest to 3 minutes--I never made it--i think 2 minutes 27 seconds was my record--but my back width is by far my best bodypart--i pull on a doorknob or stationary equipment with a rounded back now and its way too hard too explain here--just try it and get your feel for it 

hamstrings--either leg up on a high barbell holding my toe and trying to force my leg straight with my free hand for an excruciating painfull 60 seconds or another exercise I could only show people and not type here 

quads--facing a barbell in a power rack about hip high --grip it and simultaneously sink down and throw your knees under the barbell and do a sissy squat underneath it while going up on your toes. then straighten your arms and lean as far back as you can---60 seconds and if this one doesn't make you hate my guts and bring tears to your eyes nothing will---do this one faithfully and tell me in 4 weeks if your quads dont look alot different than they used to

calves--my weak bodypart that i couldnt get up too par until 2 years ago when i finally thought it out and figured out how to make them grow (with only one set twice a week too) I dont need to stretch calves after because when i do calves I explode on the positive and take 5 seconds to get back to full stretch and then 15 seconds at the very bottom "one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand etc" --15 seconds stretching at the bottom thinking and trying to flex my toes toward my shin--it is absolutely unbearable and you will most likely be shaking and want to give up at about 7 reps (i always go for 12reps with maximum weights)--do this on a hack squat or a leg press--my calves have finally taken off due to this and caught up to the rest of me 


*More info*

what i must say again is DO IT ALL, not peice meal, and tone down the frequency to see how you respond.very important shit:

slow (6-10 sec) negatives
rest pause (15-20) sec rest, then do another set)
STOP AT ONE SET AND ONLY ONE REST PAUSE!
eat shit loads of protien, im over 500g at 215lbs EAT THAT MEAT!those stretches will make you so fucking sore...i didnt think i could be this sore again

*END*


Alright, all i can say is congratulations if you've read all of that, its alot but i think you'll agree that it was well worth it.


BTW, I edited the article to make it easier to read cause i really wanted alot of ppl to read this and discuss this and force ppl to think  :Hmmmm:  so we can avoid all those boring threads in the future.

Here is the original thread:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/sh...ad/t-9227.html

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## bermich

Good post. I will admit I skimmed through a lot of the third post but the first and second ones are good.
I agree that when I see threads asking if they should workout 1nce or 2c a week, I kinda cry when I see people tell them once a week is good.

When I was younger I was working every body 3x a week and that was my best growing period. 
I switched my routine and sadly enough I am one of those people who havent increased weight on the bench in years. Sure I have a nice body but it sucks to know I am at the same stage.

This thread just made me switch back to my old routine and Im certain it will help me get out of my stale growth cycle.

One other thing: I see threads with people saying they are gonna do military flies bench decline incline and dumbells all for chest day. 
Way too much for the chest at one time.

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## bornbad71

Very good point...makes me think a lot. Nice post bro.

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## GetPsycho

interesting...... i have always trained using conventional splits but i am open minded to different styles of training.

i may use this sometime when i need a change. try it out for about 6 months and see what happens

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## Warrior

I love reading articles like this! Leave it to *saboudian* to find the good info - stuff like this is the kinda thing I like discussing with the iron brothers and why I began posting on AR to begin with... to discuss training, nutrition, and ergogenic aids. Great post - thanks for bringing the info over here!

He talks about volume and what not and what not - POWERBUILDING! One thing that really made me think was the book on Power Factor Training that talks about reps times sets times load divided by total time to complete [written load(reps*sets)/time=PI] to come up with the Power Index for that workout. Making sure that you keep increasing that PI for progressive gains. 

The thing that was really interesting was how you get a high PI. It is so individual, based on a persons muscle fiber make up for each bodypart.

For example if I do 315 pounds for 10 sets at 8 reps within 30 minutes I get a power index of 840 pounds per minute. Next training session I was able to do 365 pounds for 8 sets at 5 reps within 45 minutes - I now have a power index of 324 pounds per minute... I went backwards even though it would appear I got stronger at first glance. The amount of reps, sets, and load to get a high power factor depends on factors like the trainees muscle fiber make up and ability to recover.

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## seventy7

Oh wow. Someone linked to this from another thread and I've read most of it and skimmed through some parts but I can honestly say that this workout seems amazing and seems like it would work perfectly. I've taken the last hour to set up a workout according to this plan and I am going to be doing it for atleast the next 2 months and I'm going to see what kind of results I get. Thanks alot saboudian for sharing this valuable information.

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## alert

sounds great .. im going to give it a go next monday .. only thing for me is .. im currently trying to lose some weight so im eating ~2500 a day and trying to do 30 min on the bike everymorning .. making sure i keep carbs to breakfest and post workout ... i didn't see much talk regarding if this program would benefit someone in my situation .. im sure it would .. but gains would be slower as im not eating a shit load .. i plan on perhaps hitting up a cycle come jan.

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## Doggcrapp

Pretty good read. Oh wait I wrote that. Glad I could help out guys--Doggcrapp

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## BDTR

DC know his shit, no doubt about it. My training methods have been slowly changing to more of a dc style plan and im liking the results more.

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## alert

for those stretchs .. i take it i can adjust the weights according to my ability ? i can't do 90 pound flys  :Smilie:  the idea is to feel the stretch ? correct ? also each and every day your only doing one working set per body part ? and this is going to make me grow faster then if i did a more traditional body part a week routine .. ug .. i see why so many people don't try it and write it off as shit... its hard to believe this would work coming from older schools of thought .. but im gonna give it a try for afew weeks regardless :P

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## madmanz

the only thing i dont understand completely is the stretchs. ect chest lower the weight in a 10sec drop then hold for 50secs before raising, and u do that on every rep, that cant be correct?

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## symatech

out of curiosity is this the same dante who promotes the use of pro-hormones; i believe he even worked for a company that made them -though not too sure on that-? he always had good posts and logical arguments. anybody know?

EDIT: alrighty, I have just finished reading it all (had to print it out i cant read long shit on comp screen usually) and am thoroughly impressed. I plan on implementing his style soon and hope to see great results. Although I am a bit confused by his descriptions of the stretches I am confident I will figure it out. most dont seem too difficult. 

Thanks for posting this bro, it's one of the best reads on the board. 

bump

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## Doggcrapp

symatech :Embarrassment: ut of curiosity is this the same dante who promotes the use of pro-hormones; i believe he even worked for a company that made them -though not too sure on that-? he always had good posts and logical arguments. anybody know?

Doggcrapp: no thats a different Dante than I. I think his name is Dante Bauttista. He wanted to use Doggcrapp Bautista but I told him i have dibs on that. Alot of your questions guys would be answered on that cycles for pennies post in the realm of Doggcrapp and Iron Addict on Animals site

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## FrkyBgStok

great post. i am at work, and though i have not read it all, the first post was great and i will read the second 2 when i get home. again. great post.

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## symatech

> Alot of your questions guys would be answered on that cycles for pennies post in the realm of Doggcrapp and Iron Addict on Animals site


Im going to check it out right away. Tomorrow after work I plan on sitting down and reconfiguring my whole workout. and ill try to up my protein intake even more. thanks for sharing your ideas

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## fuxuup

this is the best shit I've ever heard Im going to start
tomarrow. It's kind of common sence in a way but
being a bodybuilder I always thought more was better
thats probably why I haven't grown in about a year
I'll take that shit to heart thanx bro for sharing
that with all of us

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## FrkyBgStok

i would like to bump this thread. At first i was fairly skeptical about the whole idea, but after reading it 3 times, i plan to reconfigure my routine with this. Thanks doggcrapp and saboudian!

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## jman98z24

Nice post man, I plan on trying this workout for the next few months, let you all know how it goes.

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## Pure Power

I did try this method b4, althoguh i will admit I gto awesome gains I plateaued after a year. I just switched up to german volume training and it seams to have broken things up a bit. I'm nto as strong but I have better definition and burned alot more Kcall. I'll be goign back to a similar method of this.. btu I dont' liek to train my back and chest on the same day. I dont' feel like I get proper results. Anyone else find it's hard to train 2 large muscle groups on the same day?

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## usualsuspect

I'm in my second week of DC's workout and I can't even explain how sore I am the following day. I did an all out rest-pause set of squats this past monday and come thursday...my legs are still sore. This workout is definately not for the faint of heart...intensity has to be top notch everytime you step foot in the gym. I can't see how someone can recover in time to train a bodypart twice every 8 days when when going natural. But DC's has a successful track record for turning men into beasts (some natural most not). I will post back in a month or so with an update on my progress, if enough are interested of course.

And I suggest reading the original post also before starting this routine. There is an enormous amount of info in the cycle's for pennies post on animal's site. You can honestly learn more in that post than reading a yr's subscription of Flex or another muscle mag. 

Thanks DC for helping us smaller guys out. Its relieving to see someone trying to help others without expecting something in return. 

~US~

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## sinista63

wow..... for so many years i've been a student of powerlifting and bodybuilding. certain principles that were being pushed in a lot of popular programs and magazines never really made much sense to me. The biggest problem was that I went right along with them even though they went against reasoning. 

i was out of lifting for a while cause of a torn labral tendon. i've slowly been getting back into it. i've been really working on getting my tendons and ligaments ready to hit everything full throttle. during the time i had off... i've been formulating a totally different workout program... one that seems very similar to DC's... i'm just glad to see someone come to similar conclusions although that one is even more refined than mine.

Basically.... AWESOME post... i'm gonna have to incorporate some of your philosophies into mine and hopefully i'll have something that i can grow with until the day i don't want to lift another weight. thanks for the knowledge

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## homeboybonanza

Similar to Mike Mentzer's philosophies, which I find amazing (was so ahead of his time) except for the higher frequency which seems to make sense. I'll have to give it a try.
Thanks for the great post!
-hb

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## mekler

wow... what a great read. that's how we do it down here in southern california people.. LOL... bump this up for DC and everyone else at AR

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## RP7

Might be a dumb question but: what's a static rep?

And a little clarification: every exercise essentially has 3 "sets" as I followed, with the rest pause in there? (So squats would be like 15-9-3 or whatever)? And I was confused as to the lack of emphasis on the negatives... they should be 6-10 secs for EVERYTHING?

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## Jarg

Is this training method possible without a spotter?

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## AbsolutelyLethal

First BUMP!!!

I believe a static is holding the weight while you contract your muscle...Like Holding the bar with arms locked in bench, holding yourself up in pull ups, holding the leg curl for hammies...

Rest pause each exercise if possible he states, trying for 15-20 reps or just do one straight set of 8-20 if RP isnt possible...

EVERYTHING is done with a 6-8 second negative....You'd be surprised how fast that saps you of energy...It gives a nice, deep burn...




> Might be a dumb question but: what's a static rep?
> 
> And a little clarification: every exercise essentially has 3 "sets" as I followed, with the rest pause in there? (So squats would be like 15-9-3 or whatever)? And I was confused as to the lack of emphasis on the negatives... they should be 6-10 secs for EVERYTHING?

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## Royal_Mako_Rumble

> First BUMP!!!
> 
> I believe a static is holding the weight while you contract your muscle...Like Holding the bar with arms locked in bench, holding yourself up in pull ups, holding the leg curl for hammies...
> 
> Rest pause each exercise if possible he states, trying for 15-20 reps or just do one straight set of 8-20 if RP isnt possible...
> 
> EVERYTHING is done with a 6-8 second negative....You'd be surprised how fast that saps you of energy...It gives a nice, deep burn...



HEY Absolut. Is the 6-8 sec Negative phase done on EVERY rep of the working set or just the last REP..??

...and for some reason i can never get that deep burn and RIP feeling the next day on my BIES, im very strict form and do the right ezxercises. Is this normal for everyone and the muscle will bulk up or am i just not ripping it, coz my arms are EMBARRASSING!!!

thanx bro```

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## Devourer

http://www.animalkits.be/phpBB/viewt...&forum=11&1349
this is the link to the whole thing...90+pages of it

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## Royal_Mako_Rumble

Yeah i have read the whole thing, but cant get a straight answer from it about the negative phases...


As for the MUSCLE TEARING, its nothing to do with Doggcrapps post, so can anyone help???



thanx

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## AbsolutelyLethal

Im fairly confident its every rep of the set...Explode up(2 sec positive) and then a nice _slow_ 6-8 second negative down...Doesnt Dogg say he feels the positive is the primer while the negative is the building part of the rep....  :Cool:  

Im gonna start doing a DC workout this week...Been doing piece work to get use to it...The uber-slow negatives, extreme stretches, finding my top 3 exercises, etc...Ill let you know how it goes....




> HEY Absolut. Is the 6-8 sec Negative phase done on EVERY rep of the working set or just the last REP..??
> 
> ...and for some reason i can never get that deep burn and RIP feeling the next day on my BIES, im very strict form and do the right ezxercises. Is this normal for everyone and the muscle will bulk up or am i just not ripping it, coz my arms are EMBARRASSING!!!
> 
> thanx bro```

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## ColdSore

i like this idea, i think we all get away from this everynow and again and get caught up with all of the isolation movements....

thanks anadrol for posting the original link

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## AbsolutelyLethal

Im back...Lets just say it really tires you out...

First the slow negative saps it out of you and secondthe 20 seconds of rest feels like nothing...I have horrible recovery ability I guess...For example I was doing sets of like 10-2-1, 12-8-2, 11-4-2 with rest pauses...Statics?!? I couldnt hold the weight for more then 5 seconds on Chest and shoulder, let alone 30...

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## inheritmylife

I found that my biceps became very overtrained doing this split. The back work, then two days later the biceps work...too much. It is on the right track though, reminds me of Stuart Macroberts Beyond Brawn: Low volume, slow reps, compound movements only. I think that an A and B day is sufficient to mix it up. An A,B, and C day is too long to go without repeating a movement even if you worked the muscle four days ago. Dropping biceps from the leg day and adding to the upper body day would work better IMO.

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## AbsolutelyLethal

My biceps are surprisingly fine inherit...My triceps really died though...Died on decline bench, started quitting on db shoulder press, and collasped on tricep pushdown. Forearms were killing me throughout the workout...Especially doing pulldowns, I went straight set here, and finally doing partial/rack deads my forearm and grip just quit on me...Kinda glad b/c my mid back and lower traps are deeply sore today, cant imagine how much sorer they'd be if the grip didnt fail and I pumped more reps out...Pecs slightly sore/tight while shoulder and tricep nothing...

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## inheritmylife

I did dips as one of my chest movements during my 8 week trial of this split. On that day I didnt even need to do a tricep movement to grow. Gosh though that split killed my biceps. I developed some pretty nasty tendonitis in my elbows due to it I'm sure. Although my bis are one of my best muscle groups, I think I'm mostly slow twitch there. I just cant take the frequency or the volume. I rarely even work them aside from back exercizes. No doubt about it though, this is a good split, just needs a little tweaking to suit individual recovery ability.

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## AbsolutelyLethal

Definitely need to do trial and error...See what can be rest paused be it exercise or muscle group and what needs to be straight setted to its demise...HAHA!!!

For example my pecs cannot recover right now fast enough for this program hence I got 10-2-1....Shoulders werent badd at 11-4-2...Back with Rack Deads was gravy until that last "set" of exercise of the day at 12-10-2...

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## inheritmylife

Something else i learned from performing the drop sets is INTENSITY. I have always trained to failure in most cases, but when you add drop sets you really learn whether or not you are working. If I could get 4 or 5 reps on my second set, I thought i wasnt working hard enough. When you can't get 2 good reps on your second set, thats workin hard baby!

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## Spoon

Great Post DC! Makes perfect sense but us aspiring bodybuilders are a stubborn bunch! when i started working out, i would do 3-4 excercises per body part. Got incredible gains for the first couple of months but eventually stopped growing. I guess doing one set per body part doesnt seem like much. Its like you could be doing more and it definetley feels MORE PRODUCTIVE. but the contary is true. Muscles grow at rest not in the gym.

I totally was stubborn and continued by routine through the years without gains. I decided to try a radical new unorthodox training routine one of the powerlifters in my gym adapted. He used descending reps as the sets progressed using 80% strength sort of similar to what DC was talking about. Emphasis on rest and recovery. Ive had gains in a moth or so. And its true you gotta be best buds with the 2.5lbs. Gains are measured in those plates.

I cant wait to further tune my training techniques with the new info learned. Il willkeep ya guys posted on my progress. Every journey begins with a few tiny steps................ or 2.5lbs plates:P Peace guys!

Spoon

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## inheritmylife

I love the 2.5 lb plates, I even tape them to the sides of dumbells. My gym only has ten lb increments after 100lbs.

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## Royal_Mako_Rumble

Iv done 4 weeks of D/C training with nothing too noticable gains wise, but i wanted to know how do i go about with the 2 week easy training part. Or can some1 tell what page number its on on his 99 page document. thanx

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## saboudian

> My biceps are surprisingly fine inherit...My triceps really died though...Died on decline bench, started quitting on db shoulder press, and collasped on tricep pushdown. Forearms were killing me throughout the workout...Especially doing pulldowns, I went straight set here, and finally doing partial/rack deads my forearm and grip just quit on me...Kinda glad b/c my mid back and lower traps are deeply sore today, cant imagine how much sorer they'd be if the grip didnt fail and I pumped more reps out...Pecs slightly sore/tight while shoulder and tricep nothing...


As for Tri's, If you use freeweight movements(especially DB's), then by time u get done with your chest and shoulders you will have nothing left for your tri's. I typically do all my chest and shoulders exercises on machines so my tri's don't get worn out before i get to them, I also feel for the most part, chest and shoulders are done much better on machines for this style of workout.

Not sure why your forearms would be killing you on first 3 exercises (assuming u don't have tendonitis,etc), but there is absolutely nothing wrong with using wraps on this type of workout.

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## saboudian

> I found that my biceps became very overtrained doing this split. The back work, then two days later the biceps work...too much. It is on the right track though, reminds me of Stuart Macroberts Beyond Brawn: Low volume, slow reps, compound movements only. I think that an A and B day is sufficient to mix it up. An A,B, and C day is too long to go without repeating a movement even if you worked the muscle four days ago. Dropping biceps from the leg day and adding to the upper body day would work better IMO.


If you're using the 3 workouts/week split and you find your bi's do not recover enough from workout to workout, your either not getting enough protein in and/or you're not doing the extreme stretches either at all or not correct/properly.

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## saboudian

> Iv done 4 weeks of D/C training with nothing too noticable gains wise, but i wanted to know how do i go about with the 2 week easy training part. Or can some1 tell what page number its on on his 99 page document. thanx


This is extremely rare that a person doesn't notice immediate gains, so this leads me to believe that you're doing something incredibly wrong/don't understand the system.

For the 2 week cruise period, after forcing yourself through intense works for 4 weeks and cramming ****loads of protein down, there is a 2 week cruise period where DC drops the protein down a lil bit, drops a meal possibly, and relaxes a lil bit, also drops the test dosage if you're 'on'. As far as the workouts go, instead of doing the normal rest-pause sets, it would just be 1 straight set with a static and thats it.

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## Royal_Mako_Rumble

> This is extremely rare that a person doesn't notice immediate gains, so this leads me to believe that you're doing something incredibly wrong/don't understand the system.
> 
> For the 2 week cruise period, after forcing yourself through intense works for 4 weeks and cramming ****loads of protein down, there is a 2 week cruise period where DC drops the protein down a lil bit, drops a meal possibly, and relaxes a lil bit, also drops the test dosage if you're 'on'. As far as the workouts go, instead of doing the normal rest-pause sets, it would just be 1 straight set with a static and thats it.


 Saboudian ur right i think... because i have a problem that nobody can seem to shed a light on.. its this;

-Iv been following DC trainin VERY STRICTLY 4 weeks, heavy weights, xtreme the lot with zero deviation. Im not juiceing. After my work outs i can never get that Ripped feeling the next day that takes days to recover, you's all know that feeling, especially cant get it in my bies thats why they're like tooth picks !!!!

I think this is the reason why im not progressing, what do u think Saboudian, and is this common if so what can i do to GET THE PAIN??


Thanx for ur help bro

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## AbsolutelyLethal

Its not really killing me...Its that I get like intense pumps going through my upper forearm...Like a huge vein pops up and I can feel the blood rushing through!!! Ill try machines today on Chest and shoulder...

Just curious if you get soreness in all muscle groups? When I was on the old prototypical workout style (3 or 4 sets of like 6-12 reps) I never got sore unless I tried a new exercise....

So far Ive been through two workouts, one of each split or whatever...My soreness impression are the following...I worked out on Tuesday and Thursday...
Weds (Day after w-out1): Mid back/lower traps felt sore and shoulders felt tired to lift up.
Thurs(w-out 2 & Day after w-out 1) Chest felt sore/tight, triceps a litte tender 
Friday(Day after) - Hammies and glutes tired as hell...Calves slightly but only because I couldnt blast them because I was limited in weight to a sprained ankle ligament in my arch...No bicep sorness
Saturday(Day 2) - Slight soreness in hammies and glute...Increased soreness in calves. Slight tenderness in my upper forearm near elbow insertion, not tendinitis...No bicep soreness...Ready to hit Workout 1 again!!  :Strong Smiley:  

Answer me this though...I always have problems in forearm workouts. Usually limited by my wrist though...When it back like its a horrible feeling that I cant stand...Same problem for me on close grip bench...My wrist bends back and it limits me...Anything I can do beyond wrist wraps...The wrist raps on my gloves dont do jack for support on close grips. I have just eliminated them from my tricep work? 

Also DC does reverse grip bench...Isnt that a shoulder intensive vs tricep intensive exercise? Not that I could do it because my wrists are so **** unflexible!!! Apparently searching through google for "Reverse grip bench" brings up an old flex article by Ronnie coleman who says he doesnt advocate them...Too much wrist/thumb strain and too much emphasis/stress on the front delt as opposed all 3 heads, triceps, and chest on normal bench...I guess I was right!  :Dancing Banana:  



> Not sure why your forearms would be killing you on first 3 exercises (assuming u don't have tendonitis,etc), but there is absolutely nothing wrong with using wraps on this type of workout.

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## saboudian

> Saboudian ur right i think... because i have a problem that nobody can seem to shed a light on.. its this;
> 
> -Iv been following DC trainin VERY STRICTLY 4 weeks, heavy weights, xtreme the lot with zero deviation. Im not juiceing. After my work outs i can never get that Ripped feeling the next day that takes days to recover, you's all know that feeling, especially cant get it in my bies thats why they're like tooth picks !!!!
> 
> I think this is the reason why im not progressing, what do u think Saboudian, and is this common if so what can i do to GET THE PAIN??
> 
> 
> Thanx for ur help bro


Well, my guess from your response is that you need to read the article at the beginning of this thread another 2-3 times, and eventually read the big one at animalkits. Although I tend to become very sore immediately after the workout, or at least by the end of the day, this is not the point. The whole concept is not in soreness but in strength gains, get that frickin journal out and see what kinda gains you've been making now that its been a few weeks.

As for what you could be doing wrong, well here's a few common mistakes.

-not using 6-10 second negative on every rep
-end every set on the negative (except for the last set of the rest pause, where you do a static after your last negative, this usually doesn't apply to calves and quads)
-as far as 'not getting the pain', if you're not getting it, then you're not working your quads and calves correctly and you're doing the streches improperly, those are the 3 things which should have you in pain
-you're not getting enough protein in, you should be at a minimum of 2g/lb of bodyweight
-you're choosing 'bad' exercises

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## saboudian

> Its not really killing me...Its that I get like intense pumps going through my upper forearm...Like a huge vein pops up and I can feel the blood rushing through!!! Ill try machines today on Chest and shoulder...
> 
> Just curious if you get soreness in all muscle groups? When I was on the old prototypical workout style (3 or 4 sets of like 6-12 reps) I never got sore unless I tried a new exercise....
> 
> So far Ive been through two workouts, one of each split or whatever...My soreness impression are the following...I worked out on Tuesday and Thursday...
> Weds (Day after w-out1): Mid back/lower traps felt sore and shoulders felt tired to lift up.
> Thurs(w-out 2 & Day after w-out 1) Chest felt sore/tight, triceps a litte tender 
> Friday(Day after) - Hammies and glutes tired as hell...Calves slightly but only because I couldnt blast them because I was limited in weight to a sprained ankle ligament in my arch...No bicep sorness
> Saturday(Day 2) - Slight soreness in hammies and glute...Increased soreness in calves. Slight tenderness in my upper forearm near elbow insertion, not tendinitis...No bicep soreness...Ready to hit Workout 1 again!!  
> ...


Off a first glance, working out 2 days a row in this split is generally a bad idea. I would stick to the 3 workouts/week for now.

cg bp- Your wrists shouldn't bend back at all and in fact, the way DC does them, this can't be a problem at all. Look in the big thread for a detailed explanation of how he does it.

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## Royal_Mako_Rumble

mm ok Saboudian, i'll concentrate on those points u set, see how clean i am on those, but i think my faults are the protien and/or not get a good enuf stretch..

Thanx bro wish me LUCK!!!

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## AbsolutelyLethal

I must have typed something wrong...I workout Tues,Thurs, Saturday....

Tell me sab,

What are your 3 exercises you do for each muscle group?
Im doing:
Chest : Barbell Decline, Machine Incline, Flat Smith
Shoulders : DB press, Machine Press, Standing Military - Curious if I need Anterior or Posterior specific exercises....
Triceps: Bent bar Pushdown, Skull Crushers, Frenchpress
Back Width: Pulldowns, Pullups, Pulldowns using wide grip bar with palms facing each other
Back Thickness - Partial Deads, Smith Rows, T-Bar

Bicep - Preacher, Seated alternating Db Curls, Standing barbell curls
Forearm - Reverse Curls, hammer curls, standing wrist curls
Calves - Seated Raises, Standing Raises, Hack squat raises
Hamstrings - Romanian Deads, seated leg curls, lying leg curl
Quad - Leg press, Squat, hack squat machine

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## saboudian

> Im doing:
> Chest : Barbell Decline, Machine Incline, Flat Smith
> Shoulders : DB press, Machine Press, Standing Military - Curious if I need Anterior or Posterior specific exercises....
> Triceps: Bent bar Pushdown, Skull Crushers, Frenchpress
> Back Width: Pulldowns, Pullups, Pulldowns using wide grip bar with palms facing each other
> Back Thickness - Partial Deads, Smith Rows, T-Bar
> 
> Bicep - Preacher, Seated alternating Db Curls, Standing barbell curls
> Forearm - Reverse Curls, hammer curls, standing wrist curls
> ...


Chest: I would avoid using free wts on chest, I would do your presses on a smith or on a machine. My exercises are smith incline, smith with a very slight incline, and a machine type of incline press thats hard to explain

Shoulders: Same thing as chest, e.g I would do your military press in the smith. As long as you're doing big compound exercises here, I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not the front or medial head is getting enough work. As for the posterior head, there is no direct work for them. The reason would be that doing DL with 500 lbs will work better than doing direct work with bent over raises with 25lbs DB's. For shoulders I have been doing rope upright rows, smith military press, and a machine type of shoulder press.

Tri's- Ok, now if you're wondering why you used so much machines for shoulders/chest, this is why you did it. If you utilize free weight movements on chest/shoulders, by time you get to tri work, they'll already be dead. DC's CG bench is a great one here, dips, and jm presses and cg presses on pretty much any angle. I wouldn't be afraid to use free wt movements for tri's being its the last work tri's get in the workout.

Back width- You nailed this one, anything done in the vertical plane. I seem to prefer machine assisted pullups vs the pulldowns, but its not really a big deal. Just experiment with different grips/handles.

Back thickness- You got it on this one. Usually what I do is for 2 of the 3 exercises in my rotation i will use partial deads, GM's, and/or back extensions and then the 3rd exercise will be a row. Thats personally just what I do, but the way you have yours set up is fine.

Biceps and forearms- You're good except for the alternating curls, I would do them both simultaneously. Cable curls work well in here also.

hams- 2 great exercises for hams are GHR and the other is putting your feet high and a bit wide on the cybex leg press, I'm not a big fan of leg curls myself.

calves- Yours is fine. One of my fav exercises here is donkey calf raises. Frickin hack squat raises hurt my shoulders so much. The one thing I would recommend is having a clock or watch nearby so you don't cheat yourself.

quads- You got the idea. The only problem with free wt squats, is that my hams fail before my quads do because i just worked them, so i usually don't do them. Usually for quads, I do a hvy set of 6-8 reps, rest for a few min, then go for the 20 repper.

abs-go with what you wish here. Some ppl don't do them at all and are fine. I'll just put a DB on my chest and do decline sit ups, try to move up in wt every workout. You can either rest pause em or just do a straight set, just make sure you stretch em at the end. ABs really aren't set in stone, plenty of experimenting to do here, but if you do decide to work them, I would use wt.


For the most part, it seems like you got some good exercises picked out, its just tough to get away from some of those free wt exercises, it just takes some experimenting to find out what works well with this split. Hope this helps.

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## AbsolutelyLethal

Sorry Im drawing a blank on the following...  :Don't know:  
-JM presses for tris?
-GHR - Glute ham?

Some questions/comments
-Why 3 incline presses for chest?
-hyperExtensions for thickness in back? I do them on ab day....
-Good mornings, isnt that really hammie intensive?
-Not sure what a cybex leg press machine(horizontal leg press?) is, but when I do leg press(incline hip sled) my feet ARE like on the upper edges of the platform
-I like the machine pullups too(tried normal pullups last time and just about died!!  :LOL:  ) but what about the other two exercises? Thats why I did pull downs in two different ways...I guess I could experiment with different grips in pullups? Like close grip facing each other or chinup, but that seems like it would take away emphasis from the lats and move it to the bis...
-The only calf raise I like is seated...The standing machine hurts my shoulders, its a calf/quad machine, and hack squats feel like my knees will pop any sec....Leg press raises I feel nothing except that Im going to lose control and have weight fall on me...
-Quads...So you do one heavy set RP negative slow and then do a 20 rep set RP slow negative with that same weight??? I use to warmup with 3 plates on leg press....Last time I did DC workout on legs I did 3 plates and my legs were quivering on every rep down...I got 12-4-3 or something like that...So painful!! I dont think I could have pumped 6 then 20...HAHA

Thanks man!!!

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## saboudian

> Sorry Im drawing a blank on the following...  
> -JM presses for tris?
> -GHR - Glute ham?
> 
> Some questions/comments
> -Why 3 incline presses for chest?
> -hyperExtensions for thickness in back? I do them on ab day....
> -Good mornings, isnt that really hammie intensive?
> -Not sure what a cybex leg press machine(horizontal leg press?) is, but when I do leg press(incline hip sled) my feet ARE like on the upper edges of the platform
> ...


Yup, u're right on the JM's and GHR.

3 inclines for chest- Well my chest is one of my weak body parts, and the way I've brought it up is by focusing on Incline which has helped it quite a bit. Its not as if my upper chest is the only thing sore, my entire chest, outside, inside, lower, upper will all get sore so I don't feel i'm neglecting anything, as long as you use a press here, you're alright.

back extensions- Well, say 2 of my back thickness exercises are DL's and GM's and I stop gaining on one of those. I really don't want to replace one of em with a row, so i replace it with back extensions. Now a back extension might not be an equally great exercise as a DL or GM but it gives me a lil bit of a break and gets me over the hump, something a row wouldn't do.

GM's hammie intensive?- sure but so are DL's.

Leg press for hams- sounds like you got the idea.

back width- As long as its in the vertical plane, don't worry about it.

calves- I don't know what to say, hack squat raises really hurt my frickin shoulders too. I really love donkey's here. My answer i guess would be to mess around with em a lil bit again. My knees used to hurt also when i used tons of wt, but with this type of training my knees don't hurt anymore cuz i use much less wt. If your knees still bother you, my only suggestion would be to bend your knees slightly in some of the exercises.


quads- actually DC doesn't recommend rest pausing here. I do a heavy set of 6-8 reps, give myself a 4-5 minute break and go for a 20 rep set. If you're not familiar with the 20 rep set, you take a wt where you can only get 8-12 reps with and go for 20 reps, take as much time as needed but keep your knees bent and don't put your hands on your quads. Some ppl will do just the 20 rep set and thats fine. If you want more info on which one to do, read the CFP thread as various ppl have stated their opinion on which one to do.

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## AbsolutelyLethal

Ok I figured out the JM Press...Combination of skullkrusher and close grip bench...I like...

GHR = Glute Ham Raises...Dont have one of those machine or donkey calf machine...JESUS!!! 
All we got is 45 degree hyper extension, which really blows my lower back and not hammies unless I really push forward when I go down...Ill try the GM's when one my leg curl boosheets stall out....

Been stalled out on chest for ages...How do I figure out if its the decline, flat, or incline that needs more work? I thought that decline was most chest intensive....How'd you go about choosing all incline?

Dont have a Cybex leg press...Only have incline sled and horizontal machine sled...Ill try horizontal sled, high and wide and see if I feel it in the hammies...I stay away from SLDL's, as when I go down with my knees locked out, they bow back and feel like they are hyperextending...Im gonna try them with a slight bend, Im afraid with Im gonna do them too much like Romandian DL's though...Ive read to start the SLDL from the ground and go to mid thigh...Ill try that for a change...

Let me make sure I got the quad thing down...You do one set heavy 6-8 reps with slow(6-8 second) negatives...5 minute break and then you bust out 20 reps with slow negatives with the same weight...Jesus, now I see why you do machines/sleds....I think Ill try and bust out 20 reps first...

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## saboudian

> All we got is 45 degree hyper extension, which really blows my lower back and not hammies unless I really push forward when I go down...Ill try the GM's when one my leg curl boosheets stall out....
> 
> Been stalled out on chest for ages...How do I figure out if its the decline, flat, or incline that needs more work? I thought that decline was most chest intensive....How'd you go about choosing all incline?
> 
> Dont have a Cybex leg press...Only have incline sled and horizontal machine sled...Ill try horizontal sled, high and wide and see if I feel it in the hammies...I stay away from SLDL's, as when I go down with my knees locked out, they bow back and feel like they are hyperextending...Im gonna try them with a slight bend, Im afraid with Im gonna do them too much like Romandian DL's though...Ive read to start the SLDL from the ground and go to mid thigh...Ill try that for a change...
> 
> Let me make sure I got the quad thing down...You do one set heavy 6-8 reps with slow(6-8 second) negatives...5 minute break and then you bust out 20 reps with slow negatives with the same weight...Jesus, now I see why you do machines/sleds....I think Ill try and bust out 20 reps first...


I use GM's as a back thickness exercise.

chest- I guess its just experience, I think DC uses wide grip bench as one of his exercises because he feels his chest isn't quite as wide. What you have for your chest exercises is a fine starting point and you can go from there.

hammy leg press- seems like u got it.

SLDL- Actually when i do these, i have my knees slightly bent, and i only lower the bar to the bottom of my knees.

quads- Its a hvy set of 6-8 reps, give yourself a 5 min break and then do the 20 rep set which isn't gonna be the same wt as your hvy set more than likely. Remember for the 20 rep set, you're picking a wt that you can only get 8-12 reps with, so its gonna be lighter than that first hvy set. If you wanna just skip the hvy set and just do the 20 rep set, than thats fine, alot of ppl will throw the hvy set in at the beginning once they run into a plateau or start having trouble putting mass on their legs.

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## yooo

bizzump

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## bitta

I really am trying to do this routine but, I will do a set where I fail on rep 8 and my partner has to help it off my chest than I wait 15 breathes and get 8 more then wait 15 breathes I get like 7 reps I can never get to where the same weight will limit me to 1 unless I do like 15 sets,wtf? I squated 405 8 times then 405 7 times then 405 6 times and so on should I then squat 415 6 times etc? with legs it works o.k. for me but arms I can do dmn bicep curls all day long,I will fail then wait a miniute and go again,and Im not growing all that much,what am I doing wrong?

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## saboudian

> I really am trying to do this routine but, I will do a set where I fail on rep 8 and my partner has to help it off my chest than I wait 15 breathes and get 8 more then wait 15 breathes I get like 7 reps I can never get to where the same weight will limit me to 1 unless I do like 15 sets,wtf? I squated 405 8 times then 405 7 times then 405 6 times and so on should I then squat 415 6 times etc? with legs it works o.k. for me but arms I can do dmn bicep curls all day long,I will fail then wait a miniute and go again,and Im not growing all that much,what am I doing wrong?


My guess at whats wrong:

-You're not doing 6-10 second negatives on every rep
-You don't end every time on the negative 
-After the negative on the last part of the rest-pause set, have a partner quickly lift it up for you and do a static
-For quads I would suggest changing to a hvy 4-8 rep set followed by a 20 rep set
-Maybe your 15 breaths make it a very long rest period, it should be around 23 seconds or so
-the last option would be that you have an extremely good recovery ability, and can consider going to the 4 workout/week split.

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## Naturallyfunny

As a natural kid (21) Will it work for me as I know juicing will help you recover..
Im gettin in about 400gm pro and 400gm Carbs (@ 217lbs)
Was in a car wreck and lost a **** load of weight so really wanna pack on the pounds...
What dya think?  :Don't know:

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## hugesunglasses

excellent post. thank you

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## saboudian

> As a natural kid (21) Will it work for me as I know juicing will help you recover..
> Im gettin in about 400gm pro and 400gm Carbs (@ 217lbs)
> Was in a car wreck and lost a **** load of weight so really wanna pack on the pounds...
> What dya think?


Absolutely. You should recover faster on this split than a typical split where u're doing 10 sets per body part and it takes a week for that part to recover. I would suggest upping the protein to 450g, and if you get stuck, up it to 500g.

I am natural and you will be fine as long as you keep your protein high and do the stretches. Even then if recovery is still a problem, than instead of doing Rest Pause sets you could just do a straight set.

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## AbsolutelyLethal

I find straight sets more mentally exhausting then Rest pause sets...With straight sets you have to keep pushing it, mind over matter...With Rest pausing you can "quit", wait 20 seconds, and continue on with the next mini-set...

Have only really compared straight vs RP on legs, both sucked...HAHA...Both make you feel like you want to kill yourself afterwards, glad that quads are last on those workouts...

My workout partners love the 3 workouts of 5 exercise a week plan but the 4 workouts of 3-4 exercises split Doggcrap mentions as an alternative in the animal kit thread, sounds so much more enticing...By the end of my workouts Im always so dead, especially doing Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, and then the two different back exercises balls to the wall!!!

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## bitta

sab, I see what you mean about those negatives bro it is working really well for me so far, but my only problem seems to be my biceps again I can recover very quickly after say preacher curls, I did them yesterday....1st squats warm-up then three sets first set 470 for 9 reps 470 for 6 reps then 470 for 2 untill my partner had to help me back up to rack,then I did stiff legged deads 500 for 6 500 for 5 500 for 1 again almost dropping to the ground, so I move to the preacher bench warm up a bit then smack on 100lbs I do 8 with 8sec negatives then 5with 8 sec negatives then barely 2 more the same way holding static at the last negative,just for fun I waited like 5 miniuts and busted out 8 more WTF is wrong with me? I havent seen any bicep growth in a while and I cant really understand what Im doing wrong, i am liking this routine a lot though any suggestions on my bicep work?

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## jrock34

i'm having trouble with the biceps stretch because of an old elbow injury. it makes my elbow feel hyperextended which is very painful. is there another stretch i can try? 

I'm really liking the program though. i like being able to lift each muscle group more often.

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## saboudian

> sab, I see what you mean about those negatives bro it is working really well for me so far, but my only problem seems to be my biceps again I can recover very quickly after say preacher curls, I did them yesterday....1st squats warm-up then three sets first set 470 for 9 reps 470 for 6 reps then 470 for 2 untill my partner had to help me back up to rack,then I did stiff legged deads 500 for 6 500 for 5 500 for 1 again almost dropping to the ground, so I move to the preacher bench warm up a bit then smack on 100lbs I do 8 with 8sec negatives then 5with 8 sec negatives then barely 2 more the same way holding static at the last negative,just for fun I waited like 5 miniuts and busted out 8 more WTF is wrong with me? I havent seen any bicep growth in a while and I cant really understand what Im doing wrong, i am liking this routine a lot though any suggestions on my bicep work?


I'm not sure how u have your workout set up, as you look like you have rearranged it, well I would rearrange it back if i were you. I would definitely have quads last, as this is easily the most taxing part of the whole workout. I also wouldn't rp quads.

Ok, Bi's, I can make a couple more educated guesses at what is going on. 

-Do 3-4 warm up sets before u hit your RP set.
-You are shortening the negative as the reps get harder
-If your partner helps u with 1 finger, or you have to cheat to get that rep up, that rep does not count.
-The other guesses I have, would be pretty much the same as the ones I have listed previously

Now you might not like my other 2 suggestions, but here they are. Read the first 3 posts of thread 3 more times, then read the CFP thread, the link to that thread has been posted on the first page. Because I see what you are doing with quads, my guess is that you lack a complete understanding of the system, I don't think there's any reason you would change the split if you did those 2 things. My guess is that maybe you just skimmed over some minor detail, but even if you didn't, I would still recommend doing those 2 things.

Ok, here is the bottom line, take the things i said above with a grain of salt and do it. So lets say you read all of that stuff, and now you have everything figured out to a tee, there is one thing that remains constant, you must beat that log every single time. Now if you're beating that log every time, and you're not gaining wt, then its a nutritional problem.

Hope this helps.

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## saboudian

> i'm having trouble with the biceps stretch because of an old elbow injury. it makes my elbow feel hyperextended which is very painful. is there another stretch i can try? 
> 
> I'm really liking the program though. i like being able to lift each muscle group more often.


Try kinda moving your shoulder around, I don't know how to explain it, but if you move your shoulder around, this stretch can either focus on your bi's or your shoulder.

If its still a problem, try doing the stretch side ways.

If its still a problem, do incline DB curl, without the curl  :Smilie:

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## bitta

man believe me doing my quads first untill I cant walk doesnt seem to have any effect on my bi's at all. I would rather get in a huge squat set then a bicep set because I want more mass and by doing this I am able to exhaust my quads totaly and then I can sit down on a bench and work my arms. If I kill my biceps and forearms I would then seem to think that going to squat I would have trouble with grip and/or balance and therefore not get enough blast out of my squat rp. Are we pissing you off by trying this routine or are we really all mis-interpreting this?

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## saboudian

> man believe me doing my quads first untill I cant walk doesnt seem to have any effect on my bi's at all. I would rather get in a huge squat set then a bicep set because I want more mass and by doing this I am able to exhaust my quads totaly and then I can sit down on a bench and work my arms. If I kill my biceps and forearms I would then seem to think that going to squat I would have trouble with grip and/or balance and therefore not get enough blast out of my squat rp. Are we pissing you off by trying this routine or are we really all mis-interpreting this?


It doesn't make me mad, because after a while i just stop caring what others do to it, because they seem to **** around with it regardless of whatever you tell them. So if ppl wanna **** it up, i don't really care that much. Now on the other hand, I know DC has stated several times that he gets mad when ppl mess with it, which is why you see him on so many boards now, because ppl just keep ****ing it up and he wants to make sure they know what his system is.

Misinterpret? Well for me to say that you misinterpreted the system would imply that I think you understand it and have read through it all, you just might not have completely understood a statement or two. I know you haven't read through it all, so I know you haven't misinterpreted it, because if you read it all, there is no way to misinterpret it, it is very clear, there is nothing ambiguous.

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## bitta

bro I dont think ambiguity is the issue I believe I just printed out and read the wrong thing four times this week alone, I will be happy to give you my phone # in pm if you can explain what I am missing b/c I really do respect the knowledge and indeed am thirsty to aquire it as well. I read the post on this thread and then several posts on other power lifting forums and the link that was provided,and let me say I really appreciate all of your help on this issue,you have responded to everyone's questions and that is admirable, brother I just want to fully understand this.

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## saboudian

> bro I dont think ambiguity is the issue I believe I just printed out and read the wrong thing four times this week alone, I will be happy to give you my phone # in pm if you can explain what I am missing b/c I really do respect the knowledge and indeed am thirsty to aquire it as well. I read the post on this thread and then several posts on other power lifting forums and the link that was provided,and let me say I really appreciate all of your help on this issue,you have responded to everyone's questions and that is admirable, brother I just want to fully understand this.


I'm not trying to come off as being mean or mad, but you cannot control tone when typing, i'm really not upset, but it does get frustrating when ppl tell you they understand the system but then they move things around, and change things a lil bit. This is why i did get a lil upset, because u're rest pausing quads and you moved them, and if you don't understand why this is wrong, then next workout do a 20 rep squat set at the beginning of your next workout, or on the other day, why not start off with DL's instead?

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## tiny20

could someone tell me if im doing this right? 
chest: 2 warmup sets 1 set of 8, take 12 deep breaths then a set of 4, take breaths then a set of 2 (failure) stretching
shoulders: same as chest
triceps: same as chest and shoulders
back: 2 warmup sets pulldowns behind the head then same as above.
back again: 2 warmup sets deadlifts then same as above.

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## Animal Cracker

good read!

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## bitta

o.k. I think im starting to feel like Im getting it,please explain your statement,ur rest pausing quads and you moved them. does that mean not let my partner help me up to rack ,just pause mid lift(static) and when my legs give out leave the bar where it is and crawl out from under it? I donrt get that statement,please tell me what to do on my last rep,how should my last squat rep look?

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## saboudian

> o.k. I think im starting to feel like Im getting it,please explain your statement,ur rest pausing quads and you moved them. does that mean not let my partner help me up to rack ,just pause mid lift(static) and when my legs give out leave the bar where it is and crawl out from under it? I donrt get that statement,please tell me what to do on my last rep,how should my last squat rep look?


Quads are last in the workout, you'll see why in a second.

Quads are not rest paused. Do 3-4 warm up sets, and then go for the 20 rep set. Lemme define the 20 rep set, you pick a wt you can get 12 reps with(*8 if you're a man) and you go for 20 reps. Keep all the negatives controlled, don't bounce up and down, make sure you go deep on every rep, don't put your hands on your knees, and never lock out your knees. After that 12th rep, you are dead, so you kinda rest there,take a couple breaths, with your knees just slightly bent, and then go for that next rep, and keep repeating that till you get to 20. The entire set, even when you're in the rest position, there is constant tension on your quads, cuz you never lock out your knees and you're not bouncing up and down. This set might take 5-10 min, so be it.

Here is a quote from from the beginning of the thread from DC:

"Personally, if I do a 20 rep hack squat with slag iron heavy weights....at 10 reps I am seriously doubting I am going to make it---at 14 reps IM seeing colors---at 17 reps IM asking God for help--and the last 3 reps are life, death, or rigor mortis---I know for a fact that there is no way in hell I could do another 4-5 sets of hacks like that. I gave everything I had right there on that set. If I can do another 4-5 sets like that I'm cruising at 70% at the most. If all you get out of my articles is the mindset of heavy weights, low volume, stretching, and frequency of body parts trained-I would be very happy because then I would have you on the right path to get you where you want to be."


Now, I would stick to that 20 rep set and thats it for quads, especially if you're new to them. If after a while, you seem to hit a plateau, then you cad add in a hvy 4-8 rep set before the 20 rep set.

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## tiny20

bump

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## PrairieDawg

should you do the 6-10 sec negative on all your sets? I noticed that'll get me alittle tired for my working set.

also i have trouble doing wide grip pull-ups because of my shoulder. what other back width exercises are good besides lat pulldowns.

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## saboudian

> should you do the 6-10 sec negative on all your sets? I noticed that'll get me alittle tired for my working set.


Only on your rest pause set. Warmup sets are just for warming up and shouldn't take anything away from your working set.




> also i have trouble doing wide grip pull-ups because of my shoulder. what other back width exercises are good besides lat pulldowns.


Anything in the vertical plane.

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## hybrid

Great post. Glad I found it. I am going to incorporate these principles in my upcoming cycle. Good discussion as well here.

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## BDTR

I'd just like to say i'm now being trained by doggcrapp, we start in may, he says he can get me to 300+ with no problems at all. Great guy.

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## saboudian

> I'd just like to say i'm now being trained by doggcrapp, we start in may, he says he can get me to 300+ with no problems at all. Great guy.


As long as you toss that food down the hatch, I don't think he will have any problem getting you to 300. Let us know when ya get there. Actually I'm curious to see if he can get ya there without AS.

I've heard nothing short of great things about DC, actions speak louder than words, and there is no short supply of results from him.

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## tiny20

do you do chest, shoulders, tri's, and back on monday, friday, and monday again. what days do you do the bi's, calves, and legs? im confused.

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## SKiN

This is one of the best posts ive ever read. Should be at the top.....bump

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## Jenseno9

BUMP
I have this link on my favorites list and was reading it again now that I'm finally getting back into the gym after almost 6 months off... Its depressing to go from the strongest i have ever been (benched 295x2) to back to benching what i did 4 yrs ago (about 215). But I think this is one of the best threads i have read on here and am starting back in the gym using this. Thanks for all the help.

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## Bill2425

I needed three days just to read the posts. Good post though.

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## odrorir

One trick to increase bench weight is to simply not bench for a month or so. Go all heavy DB, and do reverse grip benches on tri day...
Works wonders for most ppl.




> Good post. I will admit I skimmed through a lot of the third post but the first and second ones are good.
> I agree that when I see threads asking if they should workout 1nce or 2c a week, I kinda cry when I see people tell them once a week is good.
> 
> When I was younger I was working every body 3x a week and that was my best growing period. 
> I switched my routine and sadly enough I am one of those people who havent increased weight on the bench in years. Sure I have a nice body but it sucks to know I am at the same stage.
> 
> This thread just made me switch back to my old routine and Im certain it will help me get out of my stale growth cycle.
> 
> One other thing: I see threads with people saying they are gonna do military flies bench decline incline and dumbells all for chest day. 
> Way too much for the chest at one time.

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## Kärnfysikern

bumping this upp

WHY not rest pausing quads? Only reason I have seen by doggcrapp is that he cant stand the pain of having wrapped knees and restpausing. But for those that doesnt get bothered with that?

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## GREENMACHINE

Bump.

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## GettinStacked

So after looking at several different disciplines I have decided that I am going to lift with this method for a while. I have done something very similair to GVT and though I did like the overall results, I found that it can be very hard on your body and recovery can be tough at first. I am going natural and will be happy to let you all know how it goes if anyone is interested. Thanks for the great post!

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