# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > WORKOUT AND TRAINING >  Pain in shoulder from dumbell flies

## Flagg

So i've been hitting it really hard in the gym really hard the last 4-5 weeks and made some decent gains and strength increases. 

However I have a problem on chest day. I can do flat bar/incline bar, cables, machines all with no problem. 

I go on the bench to do incline flies with dumbells, and by the 8th rep, my right shoulder is in agony. Any reason what could be causing this. I dont seem to have this issue in my left at all.

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## krugerr

What sort of pain is it? Muscular? Tendons?

How does it feel? Is it painful the whole movement? just the stretch at the bottom?

Just a few things to help the guys pin down what it might be.

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## AnabolicDoc

It would definitely be helpful to know more about the pain. How severe is it (on 1 - 10 scale)? Duration (are you having the pain during motion only? And is it throughout the whole motion or just during part of it? Does the pain linger after you put down the dumbbells? Does the pain ever recur at other times? Is there any sensation of the pain radiating down your arm? Does the pain extend to the chest (or any other muscle group)? What makes the pain better? Worse? Have you ever had pain like this in the past? If yes, please describe. Do you have a history of injury or trauma to your right shoulder or any where near it?

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## baseline_9

Whatever the pain is try doing floor flys....

Basically lie on the floor and do your db flys in that position..... See how that works for ya

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## Turkish Juicer

Get an MRI and see a specialist... 

This gig comes with its own price tag...

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## Flagg

I would say the pain feels more like tendon than muscular. I start off fine, but once I start reaching about 6 reps it twinges, and by 8-10 it's that kind of pain where you know if you continue, something not right is going to happen. 

I'll try it lying on the floor if that helps. It's annoying cause I dont get this from other chest exercises.

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## schutterbox

i have the same problem and mine happened from benching to heavy... unless your training for the strongman or some shit like that i would highly recommend just sticking with higher reps n moderate weight... i do anywhere from 12 to 20 reps depending on the weight... but the way i help my shoulder is to warm up my rotator cuff no weight just to squeeze and get the blood flowing... i wouldn't do incline flies for a while it will only make your injury worse. your going to start to build scar tissue and eventually calcium deposits n will get so severe you may not be able to even bench... so warm up rotor cuff def ice when your home relaxing 20mins on 30 off for 3 hrs if possible... your rotor cuff is located basically on your shoulder blade... the other thing i suggest is hitting your rear delts hard... not heavy but hard get good form and a good squeeze... your user back is not as built up as your chest and will cause your shoulders to roll forward making it ooh like your slouching... hope this advice helps man good luck n don't keep doing the exercise if its bothering you that much, you wont shrink form taking a break for a week or 2  :Wink:

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## Flagg

Schutterbox, im almost convinced it's cause a couple weeks back, me and my training partner went ridiculously heavy on the bench press and I think I've put too much undue stress on my shoulders. Did chest this week, and just left flies out all together and just did extra sets on the cables. 

Just started blasting the rear delts in the last couple weeks so im hoping I can lose this over the next month or so. Thanks for the tips mate!

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## TheClinch

I would suggest that seeing as you have gone so hard for a mo th now that you back off the super heavy weight for a couple weeks and allow for your body to heal up a bit.

If you have created rotator tendinitis in your shoulder you may require more time off to heal.


I also hit my chest super hard for lengthy periods of time and if only one exercise is bothering me I will drop that exercise for a while. 
You may be preventing it from healing by always targeting in on the damaged area.

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## Flagg

Clinch yeah, i've picked up injuries before and had to take time off before which is not cool. I have a holiday in May and I want to look my best before then, lol! 

Like I said, we missed out flies this week and I had no problems. I'll speak to my training partner and just let him know id rather leave flies for awhile. I mean we've been blasting it in the gym the last 5 weeks. The results have been good, and I always seem to be in a perpetual state of feeling pumped as of late. I think we're probably doing shoulders and traps today.

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## TheClinch

The drive to look your best for a specific date can be a beast on your body when rest might be in order but, personally, I completely understand. Been there before.
Well I kind of suspect that you are already concluding to keep pushing your self while watching closely. Go ahead, just stay away from anything that aggitates your shoulder.

What is your training split right now? Maybe you are overtraining your shoulder.

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## Rwy

I had same issue. Waited it out for awhile. I pulled my trap awhile back and I think that has turned it into something different

I am going to the dr for it in a couple of weeks. I hope its nothing too crazy. I am going to ibiza in august and there is no wayI go there not looking perfect lol

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## Flagg

Training is usually two days on, one day off. We dont usually spend more than one hour in the gym and our "rests" between sets is when the other guy is blasting out his reps.

I have to admit though, we were forced to have two days off in a row this week cause of work commitments and it has allowed my body to... "calm down" somewhat.

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## TheClinch

> Training is usually two days on, one day off. We dont usually spend more than one hour in the gym and our "rests" between sets is when the other guy is blasting out his reps.
> 
> I have to admit though, we were forced to have two days off in a row this week cause of work commitments and it has allowed my body to... "calm down" somewhat.


Sorry, I meant to specify what do you train on a day to day basis?

How are your chest, shoulders, back exercises split?

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## [email protected]

Same happened to me a few months back. Found out I was benching incorrectly, shoulders were flared way to much, causing me to use my front delts. Just check to make sure your doing your presses correctly. I wasn't. Thankfully I am now and am able to work my chest a lot better, plus staying away from shoulder injury.

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## jseek

I'd recommend stop doing the flies. Cables ok but flies bad...only real difference is the scapula is pinned down by the bench in flies...so u are probably over stretching the anterior capsule of the shoulder....that means....bye bye anterior labrum/biceps gonna go pop soon. 
Stick to presses and ranges that don't feel stressful to the shoulder/pec seeing as they feel fine. Bump up rotator work/biceps/post delt work and rest the over stretched anterior part of shoulder for about 3 months. 
Good luck

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## RipOwens

> So i've been hitting it really hard in the gym really hard the last 4-5 weeks and made some decent gains and strength increases.
> 
> However I have a problem on chest day. I can do flat bar/incline bar, cables, machines all with no problem.
> 
> I go on the bench to do incline flies with dumbells, and by the 8th rep, my right shoulder is in agony. Any reason what could be causing this. I dont seem to have this issue in my left at all.


I agree that it sounds shoulder related, being that its incline. I've had similar pain off and on. Flat flies are ok? 

Also agree with Clinch to back off the weight for a bit, which shouldn't hurt ur gains.

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## dan991

I had this same problem a while back. It was an impingement in my shoulder. More or less the back of my shoulder was stronger than the front; which caused "pulling" on my front shoulder muscle by my back muscle. Same thing you're describing- after a few reps pain. Front shoulder muscle would go out after a few reps causing the back muscle to kick in and it was then pulling on the front causing a strain. The fix was to work my front shoulders more to get them as strong as the rear and then the pain went away. Make sense?

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## dan991

PATHOMECHANICS OF MUSCLE IMBALANCE IN SUBACROMIAL IMPINGEMENT

Muscle tightness has been implicated in subacromial impingement. In particular, during elevation, anterior shoulder girdle muscle tension may affect the tension on the leading edge of the coracoacromial ligament, predisposing it to tightness ultimately leading to structural impingement.16 Tightness of the pectoralis major creates an anterior force on the glenohumeral joint with a consequent decrease in stability.18 A tight pectoralis minor limits scapular upward rotation, external rotation, and posterior tilt, thereby reducing SAS.19 This alteration in scapular kinematics occurs in three separate planes of movement and differs from scapular kinematics of those with normal muscle length.2021

Imbalances in glenohumeral rotation range of motion may also contribute to altered shoulder kinematics. Specifically, excessive external rotation leads to increased anterior and inferior translation of the humerus, leading to anterior instability.22 In contrast, a lack of external rotation due to anterior muscular tightness alters the scapulohumeral rhythm and decreases posterior scapular tilt.23 Posterior capsular tightness, often demonstrated by a loss of internal rotation, may lead to more superior and anterior translation of the humeral head.2325 This loss of internal rotation is known as glenohumeral internal rotation deficit, or GIRD, and is defined as a loss of internal rotation greater than or equal to 20° compared to the contralateral side.26 GIRD is a relatively new concept in the literature that requires more research regarding its incidence and effects in normal, athletic, and injured populations. Recent evidence suggests that overhead athletes with impingement often display signs and symptoms of GIRD.2729

Imbalances or deficits in muscular strength and activation levels can lead to functional impingement. Both glenohumeral and scapulothoracic muscle imbalances can contribute to shoulder complex dysfunction. The pathomechanics of functional impingement may involve one or both of the shoulder force couples: deltoid/rotator cuff and scapular rotators. (Figures 2-3) Because of the lack of prospective studies, researchers have not determined whether muscle imbalance is a contributor to or result of impingement.

GLENOHUMERAL IMBALANCES

Alterations in deltoid and rotator cuff co-activation and rotator cuff imbalances have been described in patients with impingement.3034 The deltoid plays an important role in the pathomechanics of impingement due to its ability to offer upwardly directed force which must be balanced by the synchronous function of the rotator cuff musculature. Muscle imbalances in within the deltoid and rotator cuff force couple can cause compression within the SAS.7,35 The deltoid has been found to be atrophied and infiltrated with connective tissue in patients with shoulder impingement,3637 and it exhibits lower levels of EMG activation in patients with impingement.33,38 While it is assumed that these effects on the deltoid are caused by impingement, it is unclear if the deltoid pathology precedes or is a result of impingement.

The rotator cuff is important in maintaining normal humeral head position in the glenoid during elevation (flexion and abduction) movements. The compressive forces of the rotator cuff stabilize the humerus against the glenoid, thereby providing dynamic stabilization of the glenohumeral joint.3940 Weakness of the infraspinatus reduces this compressive force, promoting instability.18 This instability may lead to functional impingement.

When the dynamic stabilizing forces of the rotator cuff are removed from the glenohumeral joint in a cadaver model, there is a significant increase in superior and anterior migration of the humeral head during elevation, which would lead to impingement.35,41-42 Downward compressive forces of the inferior rotator cuff are necessary to neutralize the upwardly directed shear forces of the deltoid.35 Without rotator cuff stabilization in cadaveric models, the humeral head migrated 1.7 mm vs. 0.7 mm with rotator cuff stabilization at 60° of abduction, and 2.1 mm vs. 1.4 mm at 90° of abduction.42 Clearly, while cadaveric models do not accurately reflect the effect of dynamic neuromuscular activation (muscle activation and timing) of glenohumeral and scapulothoracic muscles during glenohumeral kinematics, they may offer some insight into the role of the rotator cuff.

Decreased rotator cuff EMG activity may also contribute to humeral head superior translation during early abduction, leading to impingement.33 Experimentally-induced fatigue of the rotator cuff leads to superior migration of the humeral head at the initiation of abduction,4344 however, the effects of fatigue experienced after actually participating in an activity (such as repeated throwing) have not been investigated. Since these two studies only assessed scapular plane elevation, it is possible that other muscles may compensate for upward migration of the humeral head during functional activities that occur in planes other than the scapular plane. Few studies have assessed simultaneous rotator cuff EMG and glenohumeral kinematics in patients with impingement, leaving many questions unanswered regarding the exact pathomechanics of impingement.

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## cherrydrpepper

You can read all that stuff Dan just posted or I can tell you its rotator cuff issue possible strain tear or impingement. I have a bad rotator cuff - dumbbell flies make it hurt bad. 

I have been rehabbing my rotator cuff for months now with 3 different rehab/prehab exercises. I have not done dumbbell flies in months but have gained significant range of motion, strength increases and loss of pain in the shoulder. I am going to try them on my next chest day will try to remember to come back here or you can pm me if curious.

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## cherrydrpepper

Hey I posted this routine I do in another thread so I copied pasted here in case you want to do rotator cuff rehab/prehab exercises. I will try to check in and see if my shoulder has improved enough to do the fly movement without pain. 


Innies, Outies, Broom stick overhead raise


Outies with resistance band
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY2tNBOmvGs
:43 in but I stop with my forearm by my side I dont go across my stomach with it

Innies with resistance band can be seen at 2:38

Amazing I have not seen that video before and there are some new ones on there I should try. 


You can use a broomstick or dowel for overhead raise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGqCS...098FF370DF8C17
I only go to the top of the movement and a little past back I don't do that crazy shit where he goes all the way past his back like hes double jointed I don't think my body is made to do that motion

There is a 4th one I just started doing I take a band and pretend I am pitching a ball with the band as very light resistance just to make my shoulder do that rotation because seriously how often does your shoulder do that motion if you aren't playing ball so I figure its good for the shoulder after Ive already warmed everything up with those three. 

I do these on chest and shoulder day also but I only do a set or two to warm my body up since I don't want to tax the rotator cuff when he is going to probably be stressed during lifting for chest and shoulder that day. Now what I do do is I do cable rear delt and reverse pec deck first on chest or shoulder day after hearing a tip from greg valentino that this is the best thing you can do so warm all that shit up and prevent an injury to the stabilizer muscles before jumping into a bench press or whatever.

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## Flagg

> I had this same problem a while back. It was an impingement in my shoulder. More or less the back of my shoulder was stronger than the front; which caused "pulling" on my front shoulder muscle by my back muscle. Same thing you're describing- after a few reps pain. Front shoulder muscle would go out after a few reps causing the back muscle to kick in and it was then pulling on the front causing a strain. The fix was to work my front shoulders more to get them as strong as the rear and then the pain went away. Make sense?


Yeah that does actually. I did chest tonight and again, I omitted from flies and we just did extra on cables instead. Would straps make a difference when im benching in terms of putting less stress on my front delts?
EDIT: where did you get that other information from, is that from a e-journal cause I wouldn't mind looking at it in a bit more detail. 

@The Clinch, I have to admit we change our exercises quite a bit from week to week to keep muscles guessing. What we do tend to do, no matter what muscle group it is, we do a big six setter for our first exercise, and we then tend to do 4 sets for everything else. Sometimes we'll also do 4 sets of something increasing weight, then do 4 sets of the same exercise, going down in weight.

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## dan991

I don't remember where I got the info from; I just copied and pasted it from somewhere online or from a PDF file. I don't think straps would make any difference though.

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## jseek

I'll try an easy way to describe the shoulder. 

One-the most mobile joint in the body. 
Deltoid-main lifting muscle. So if the shoulder was a simple joint that moved in one direction...like knee or elbow, the joint would be stable and the deltoid would be similar to a bicep, or calf muscle, or hamstring...pulling on a joint, causing movement. 

BUT...to allow for mobility, the shoulder is unique. The socket for the ball to stick into is very small. It is made bigger with the cartilage like labrum...the joint had normal static and very loose ligaments all the way around it. Then it has dynamic ligaments attached to these static ligaments to relax or tense the structures immediately around the balk&joint to prevent things from getting pinched. These dynamic ligaments are called rotator cuff muscles. The purpose of the rotator cuff / dynamic ligaments are to keep the ball in the bony/cartilage socket while allowing the shoulder full motion and strength. 

What is an impingement then?? Well if the ball is allowed to slide upwards towards the roof of the whole joint called the acromion process, then in pinches /impinges the tendons of rotator cuff/bursa sacklike pillows that cushion this kind of thing. How can the ball of the upper arm move away from the center of the socket??
1) weak rotator cuff vs deltoid (ant/middle/posterior)
2) posture challenges (spine/scapula/wierd alignments
3) muscle tightness/weakness/ that pulls ball one way or another
4) labral tearing-example-tear superior labrum loose....ball tends to always slide upwards...if supraspinatous can't hold the ball down, then everything with drltoid activation the ball will tend to slide upwards....pinchingstuff/causing micro damage/swelling/irritating sub acromion bone/stupa ting bone spur growth downwards again pinching things

Gotta stop...tired of smartphone autocorrect
But u get the idea
Train smart
Maintain proper mechanics
Don't hurt shoulder in the first place
If u do, get help to isolate imbalances and correct them
Warmup well before exercises
Trust your body to heal minor stuff, get help quickly for big stuff so things can be fixed before problems worsen

Also...I consider the bicep a 5th rotator cuff as it goes in front of the ball and through the joint. Keep bicep strong and loose

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