# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  The Gay Baby Boom

## Carlos_E

-By Edward Lewine

Using adoption or surrogacy, more homosexual men than ever before are becoming fathers. It's not a noveltyit's a movement. Look for it at a playground near you.

It was a cold February night in suburban New Jersey when two men and their female friend gathered for an artificial insemination at Marsh Hanson and Jay Wilson's 1870s carriage house, which is decorated in what Hanson calls "Pottery Barn gay." Their friend Piper had arrived that day from Massachusetts with her three daughters in tow. "They're all gorgeous," Hanson says, "which was important to Jay and me. We're vain."

Hanson, 38, works in IT for a Manhattan law firm. He put some of his sperm in a syringe and gave it to Piper. The following night, Wilson, 37, a record-label executive, repeated the procedure. Afterward they all drove back to Piper's house in Massachusetts, where the two men alternated the process for another three nights. Hanson and Wilson, who were joined in a civil union in October 2007, know another couple who mixed sperm when making their babies. Those men created a genetic cocktail and waited to see which man won the lottery. But Wilson and Hanson decided to take turns. The big moment came each night at around eleven o'clock.

"We'd hand her the syringe," Hanson recalls. "Then we'd all go to sleep. It wasn't a social event and it wasn't hippie-dippy, with candles and fertility dances. We were kind of straightforward about it."

While Hanson and Wilson's embryo was being created, similar scenes were unfolding around the country. The stereotypical image of the American gay mansingle, fabulous, social, and up for endless anonymous sexis giving way to a new norm, one that has couples and even unattached gay men settling down to raise children. Statistics are hard to come by, but academics, doctors, lawyers, and gay advocacy groups say that there appears to be a boom in homosexual men having babies. And as with many trends, the increase in gay fathers has afforded its own terminology: the gayby boom.

"More and more gay men seem to be having babies," says Charlotte J. Patterson, a University of Virginia psychologist who studies gay families.

"It's definitely happening," says Dan Savage, who writes the syndicated newspaper column "Savage Love" and is himself a gay father (he has a son). "Most of the people I know have adopted, but more and more gay men are opting for surrogacy because it gives you more control, and there are gay men who want that genetic relationship with their children."

Hanson and Wilson decided on surrogacy after being inspired by another gay couple. "Their surrogate is pregnant with their third child," Hanson says, "and their surrogate is friends with our surrogate." These days in vitro fertilization (IVF) (which involves implanting a lab-fertilized egg in a womb) is particularly popular, and increasingly effective. Joe Taravella, 39, and his partner, Brent, 40, who recently took his last name, used IVF to have their daughter two years ago and then tried it again and had fraternal twins (a boy and a girl) last May. Other couples turn to makeshift approaches like the one Hanson and Wilson used. But all these reproductive methods have some things in common: They're faster than adoption, do't involve persuading social workers that you are fit to be a parent, and allow you to pass your genes along to your children. Agencies and law offices that match potential parents with egg donors and surrogate mothers say they're flooded with gay-male candidates. John Weltman, the founder of Circle Surrogacy in Boston, says he had few gay hopefuls when he opened his doors 12 years ago. Today around 90 percent of his clients are gay.

Evidence of the gayby boom is everywhere. It isn't just the strollers in gay neighborhoods. Some Halloween parties at lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community centers now brim with gay dads showing off their immaculately costumed progeny. And participants in New York City's Gay Pride Parade have turned down the volume of the music in order to be more accommodating to kids.

"They're even talking about having a family week on Fire Island this summer," says Ron Poole-Dayan, a marketing consultant who runs a biological-parent support group in Manhattan and has 7-year-old twins with his partner, Gregory Poole-Dayan. "So that tells you something."

Ten years ago, if you were a gay couple who wanted a baby through in vitro fertilization you were likely to go to Southern California, which embraced IVF early on and has many specialist agencies. Today these clinics are pretty much all over the country.

And it's not just gay couples who are investigating IVF. Many homosexual men have decided to go it alone, which provides at least one tangible bonus: While single parenthood can be a turnoff on the heterosexual dating scene, being a single gay dad isthere's really no other word for ithot.

"In the gay community, having a child as a single man is a sign of assertiveness," Ron Poole-Dayan says. "It's also appealing to know this is a gay man who isn't afraid of commitment." Poole-Dayan says he's seen six out of the seven single gay dads he knows pair off after the births of their children.

That's what happened to B.J. Holt, 40, a general manager for Broadway stage productions. "I worried about being a single father," Holt says. "But sure enough, as soon as I started the process with a surrogate mother, I met my future partner." Today Holt and his partner, who asked that his name be withheld, are raising Christina, who is 7 months old.

Darek DeFreece, 36, an investment-banking attorney who lives in the Bay Area, was aware of the possible consequences of being a single father. "I worried about the workload, about having enough time to give to my family and my personal life," he says. But those concerns seemed relatively trivial when he looked at the long term. "It was especially important for me to have children as a single man. I looked at myself in the future, and being a single, older man without kids didn't seem like a desirable place to be." (DeFreece no longer has to worry about being on his ownhe and his partner have 9-month-old twins, Jake and Riley Catherine.)

The difference in experience between older gay men and the new breed has caused something of a generation gap: Men in their twenties and thirties have come of age with the expectation that they can find partners and raise families if they choose to, whereas older men have had to adjust their thinking to the possibility.

Tom Piskula is 48. He remembers believing as a young man that if he acknowledged he was a homosexual he would have to accept that he was giving up the right to have children. "It was either be gay or have kids," says Piskula, who now shares a home in New Jersey with Jeffrey Lu, 36, and their 20-month-old girls, Ivory and Iris, who were born using Lu?s sperm and a surrogate mother. You can trace the roots of the gay baby boom back to the mid-nineties, when a number of cultural forces came together. The gay-rights struggle had given gay men greater freedom and acceptance, and the aids epidemic had made monogamy more appealing. This translated into the same-sex-marriage movement, which led to the growing prevalence of domestic partnerships, civil unions, and gay marriage.

The next logical step was fatherhood. Or maybe it was the other way around. "The legal changes helped people feel comfortable about changing their behavior," says the Yale law professor William N. Eskridge Jr., the author of Dishonorable Passions: Sodomy Laws in America, 1861-2003. "Those behavioral changes have helped change the law."

Not that any of this means it's become easy for gay men to form families. Many states allow some kind of legalized relationship for gays, but only one, Massachusetts, has gay marriage on the books. And there are legal barriers in many states that prevent two unmarried people from adopting the same child. Then there is the time, energy, and sheer cost.

Marsh Hanson and Jay Wilson were lucky to find their surrogate friend and to be able to inseminate her privately in their home. "Part of the issue for us was financial," Hanson says. "It was the cheapest way to do this." They are in the minority. Most gay men opt for an IVF procedure using an egg from a donor placed in the body of a different woman, who carries the embryo to term. This is called gestational surrogacy and is favored because in some states it gives the carrier no legal rights to the child she gives birth to.

Melissa Brisman, a New Jersey lawyer who specializes in reproductive law, says it can cost between $60,000 and $150,000 to create a baby through IVF. The parents pay the gestational carrier's medical bills. The fee paid to the carrier is often around $20,000; for carrying twins it can be $3,000 to $5,000 higher. The egg donor typically gets around $8,000 (although it can be less).

It's been a few months since Hanson and Wilson handed the syringe to their surrogate, and sure enough, Piper is pregnant, although no one knows the sex of the baby or whose sperm did the trick. "At the end of the day we'll be happy whoever the dad is," Hanson says. "But both of us are secretly wanting to have hit the ball out of the park."

----------


## Lexed

I wonder if the kid is allowed to talk to the mother that donated the egg

----------


## Act of God

As long as they are doing a good job, super!

----------


## Carlos_E

> I wonder if the kid is allowed to talk to the mother that donated the egg


It depends on which process they use. 

"Most gay men opt for an IVF procedure using an egg from a donor placed in the body of a different woman, who carries the embryo to term. This is called gestational surrogacy and is favored because in some states it gives the carrier no legal rights to the child she gives birth to."

----------


## Kratos

Ever think you'll want a kid Carlos?

----------


## kfrost06

Every child should have a mother, fathers help but a mother is paramount.

----------


## Lexed

> Every child should have a mother, fathers help but a mother is paramount.


mama's boy

----------


## Carlos_E

> Ever think you'll want a kid Carlos?


 I want kids but not as a single parent.

----------


## wantmoremass

Carlos, can you please share the source of this article? I would like to send it to a friend of mine.

----------


## DSM4Life

Great read, thanks Carlos. 

When i am in a long term loving relationship and financially stable i will no doubt be having kids.

----------


## Carlos_E

> Carlos, can you please share the source of this article? I would like to send it to a friend of mine.


http://men.style.com/details/blogs/d...y-bo.html#more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...m_n_99187.html



> Great read, thanks Carlos. 
> 
> When i am in a long term loving relationship and financially stable i will no doubt be having kids.


 :Thumps Up:

----------


## Act of God

I bet gay couples would be good parents, even if only based on the fact that this is something that would have been impossible years ago so they won't take the privilege of parenthood for granted like all the usual shitheads of the world.

----------


## thegodfather

Great article....I support it...and it makes me happy...if for no more reason than it hopefully aggrivates the living piss out of the religious zealouts that try to tell other people how to live... Excellent!

----------


## Act of God

The only negative I predict is possibly some sort of short-term social stigma on the child. It might be pretty rough at school, as this stuff is still pretty new.

----------


## Carlos_E

> I bet gay couples would be good parents, even if only based on the fact that this is something that would have been impossible years ago so they won't take the privilege of parenthood for granted like all the usual shitheads of the world.


From what I've seen that is the case. The people I know tend to spoil the kid.  :Smilie:

----------


## Carlos_E

> hopefully aggrivates the living piss out of the religious zealouts that try to tell other people how to live... Excellent!


 :LOL:

----------


## Carlos_E

> The only negative I predict is possibly some sort of short-term social stigma on the child. It might be pretty rough at school, as this stuff is still pretty new.


I think it's no different than being a White or Black in an area where you're different. Or being a fat kid. Kids will tease you for being different no matter what.

----------


## kfrost06

> Great read, thanks Carlos. 
> 
> When i am in a long term loving relationship and financially stable i will no doubt be having kids.


um, can you please explain how exactly your going to have kids? Maybe you can legislate nature and demand men capable of bearing children.

----------


## kfrost06

> I bet gay couples would be good parents, even if only based on the fact that this is something that would have been impossible years ago so they won't take the privilege of parenthood for granted like all the usual shitheads of the world.


Hangs head in shame in disgust  :Shrug:

----------


## kfrost06

> I think it's no different than being a White or Black in an area where you're different. Or being a fat kid. Kids will tease you for being different no matter what.


Perhaps you explain how a man, sorry 2 men are going to help a young girl reaching purbety? They are going to relate? They will know from experience? Absolutely obsurded and completely selfish. Men are incapable of bearing children for a reason, whether you believe it's God or nature. Giving a child to 2 men to raise may look cute in a hollywood movie but it's a crime to the child.

----------


## kfrost06

> The only negative I predict is possibly some sort of short-term social stigma on the child. It might be pretty rough at school, as this stuff is still pretty new.


Where did you get this from? Or is it just the staus quo to toss a bone to the liberals, do you think 2 men could replace your mom? 

you think the only down fall is a little teasing, come off it and use that brain you have.

----------


## Carlos_E

> um, can you please explain how exactly your going to have kids?


Obviously it involves doing this.  :Aajack:

----------


## Carlos_E

> Perhaps you explain how a man, sorry 2 men are going to help a young girl reaching purbety? They are going to relate? They will know from experience? Absolutely obsurded and completely selfish. Men are incapable of bearing children for a reason, whether you believe it's God or nature. Giving a child to 2 men to raise may look cute in a hollywood movie but it's a crime to the child.


Don't be stupid. 

What about a single father with custody of his children or if his wife died? Are you saying he isn't capable of raising a girl? He should have his girls taken away? 

A child will have female influences. Aunts, grand mothers, close female friends. It's a ridiculous statement on your part.

----------


## Carlos_E

> do you think 2 men could replace your mom?


I see you're against men having children together. Are you against 2 women having children together? Or is your personal prejudice just against gay men.

----------


## godkilla

think about all the gay jokes the kids make at school. now imagine you have two gaymen as parents......this kid is gonna get picked on and beat up and will never even have a chance at popularity. imagine when he gets to highschool....... i am just glad it isnt me, lol.

----------


## kfrost06

> Obviously it involves doing this.


If thats the case I would be a new father everyday, sometimes 2-3x a day. Takes more then that though

----------


## Act of God

> I think it's no different than being a White or Black in an area where you're different. Or being a fat kid. Kids will tease you for being different no matter what.


Interesting thought...what happens if we notice that the rate of homosexuality of these adopted children to gay couples is significantly higher than compared to children of heterosexual couples?

That would F sh!t up, big time. I personally still wouldn't care because I'm all about personal freedom but it could really damage the "homosexuality is not a choice" campaign.

----------


## kfrost06

> Don't be stupid. 
> 
> What about a single father with custody of his children or if his wife died? Are you saying he isn't capable of raising a girl? He should have his girls taken away? 
> 
> A child will have female influences. Aunts, grand mothers, close female friends. It's a ridiculous statement on your part.


So I am being stupid for pointing out the obvious? In every custody case the mother has the side on her and it would take extreme measures for a mother to lose that main custody status, like drugs or mental disorder or a Britney Spears personality.

A child needs more then an occassional female influence and ignoring this fact and calling my statement ridiculous shows your out of touch with reality on this issue. Seroiusly, do you think 2 guys could replace your mom?

----------


## Act of God

> Where did you get this from? Or is it just the staus quo to toss a bone to the liberals, do you think 2 men could replace your mom? 
> 
> you think the only down fall is a little teasing, come off it and use that brain you have.


Haha, I know man. Honestly, I just don't care what people do in their private lives. Considering we allow every shaniqua, tammy, loo-anne and Margarita squeeze out children irresponsibly and leech off OUR tax dollars and medical system I don't see how this can be any more damaging.

----------


## kfrost06

> I see you're against men having children together. Are you against 2 women having children together? Or is your personal prejudice just against gay men.


Prejudices aside there is no doubt in my mind 2 women would do a far superoir job then 2 men, you can say that makes me a bigot I say it makes me a realist. A one father one mother is and always has been the best since the begining of time.

----------


## Carlos_E

> Interesting thought...what happens if we notice that the rate of homosexuality of these adopted children to gay couples is significantly higher than compared to children of heterosexual couples?
> 
> That would F sh!t up, big time. I personally still wouldn't care because I'm all about personal freedom but it could really damage the "homosexuality is not a choice" campaign.


From what I've read there is no evidence of gay parents raising a higher number of gay kids. I know a guy who had lesbian parents and he's straight. He's actually quite a womanizer.

----------


## Act of God

> So I am being stupid for pointing out the obvious? In every custody case the mother has the side on her and it would take extreme measures for a mother to lose that main custody status, like drugs or mental disorder or a Britney Spears personality.
> 
> A child needs more then an occassional female influence and ignoring this fact and calling my statement ridiculous shows your out of touch with reality on this issue. Seroiusly, do you think 2 guys could replace your mom?


For the record, I do think that 1 mom and 1 dad is best. I also think that 2 moms or 2 dads is better than one of either.

----------


## Act of God

> From what I've read there is no evidence of gay parents raising a higher number of gay kids. I know a guy who had lesbian parents and he's straight. He's actually quite a womanizer.


That's because he has inside information!

----------


## Carlos_E

> So I am being stupid for pointing out the obvious? In every custody case the mother has the side on her and it would take extreme measures for a mother to lose that main custody status, like drugs or mental disorder or a Britney Spears personality.
> 
> A child needs more then an occassional female influence and ignoring this fact and calling my statement ridiculous shows your out of touch with reality on this issue. Seroiusly, do you think 2 guys could replace your mom?


You totally ignored my first point so I will repeat. 

What about a single father with custody of his children or if his wife dies? Are you saying he isn't capable of raising a girl? He should have his girls taken away?

----------


## kfrost06

> You totally ignored my first point so I will repeat. 
> 
> What about a single father with custody of his children or if his wife dies? Are you saying he isn't capable of raising a girl? He should have his girls taken away?


I think it is a rare and unfortuante case and certianly should not have his kids taken away and in a strong family unit the extend family will step up to the plate and help. It is not a manufactored situation like what you are proposing. Where do the kids come from for a gay couple?

----------


## thegodfather

> I think it is a rare and unfortuante case and certianly should not have his kids taken away and in a strong family unit the extend family will step up to the plate and help. It is not a manufactored situation like what you are proposing. Where do the kids come from for a gay couple?


I would much rather see children, who are wards of the state, who face a future of being shuffled around from state homes, to foster homes...the face untold abuses and other unstable situations; and who would otherwise live a miserable 18 years and have no chance at a childhood; goto a gay couple or parents who would provide a stable home free of abuse, than to see them face the aforementioned. Surely you would agree that that situation is much more favoreable to children to be in a loving home than to be in the states care?

----------


## Carlos_E

> I think it is a rare and unfortuante case and certianly should not have his kids taken away and in a strong family unit the extend family will step up to the plate and help. It is not a manufactored situation like what you are proposing. Where do the kids come from for a gay couple?


Read the article posted above and you can stop asking how gay parents have kids. 




> In a strong family unit the extend family will step up to the plate and help.


That's EXACTLY what I said in a previous post. You dismissed my point then you repeat it.  :LOL:  



> A child will have female influences. Aunts, grand mothers, close female friends.

----------


## Kratos

Every child would do best if they were born to a mother and father (I think there is something to be gained from both sex, not just mother), to parents that are married, financially stable, love each other.

It never happens that way, girls get knocked up, people spit, have babies they don't want, do a shitty job, split custody, raise kids in bad neighborhoods, cigarette smoke, raise kids around drugs. A million ways str8 people f up a kid.

With gay men, were talking about a substantial outlay of cash, they really want that kid. I am yet to see a study were kids raised by gay parents are less likely to be happy. If they really want the baby and are going to put the effort into raising it, what's the problem? Not every household can be ideal.

----------


## zimmy

I really don't see how people can still think this way. Being a female does not mean you automatically have skills to be a good parent. It doesn't matter what instincts you have for most parenting issues. Other than breast feeding...the rest comes with constantly being around / caring for the child. Spend night and day with a baby answering their cries and you'll start to know and feel when the baby is sick , sad, or just not well. To say that only a mother or pair of mothers could do good is rediculous. It just falls in line with the new sexism that is out there now days. Men are treated as inferior all the time on tv and movies. It's ok to show a tv show where a man is an idiot and can't do anything right, but the wife comes to the rescue and helps and is a saint for putting up with such an idiot. Women have freed themselves from being seen as only mothers who have to stay at home but now no one defends the males who are themselves being seen as inferior, less emotional and less able to be a good parent.

I've gotten a little of track here. I guess what i'm sayinig is, it's just as wrong to say that a man can't do as good of a job raising a child as it is to say that the only thing a woman can do is stay home and have kids. They are both stereotypes and both based more on environmental factors such as TV, social jokes.... and less on actual fact.


I saw that in this thread some one made reference to sharing personal experiences. Ok so the father would not have gone through becoming a woman ... so that doesn't mean he can't be edjucated and read about exactly what process is like. I've never been an alcoholic but I know all the signs and emotional problems that go with it. So I should be able to understand and relate to an alcoholic on some level right? As a parent you will go through tons of random things that you just can't expect or prepare...I used drugs...skipped school... got expelled...went to college ... dropped out....got my first high paying job... all of which my parents never did. But they were there for it all...and they helped me through it great. So i guess what i'm saying is a parent can't count on there own personal experiences as the sole basis for their parenting skills.



Lastly...I think the only thing that matters is that the parents love the child and are willing to sacrifice everything to help that child grow up right. That is all that matters.

----------


## zimmy

oh yah 1 more thing... about the kid being made fun of... GOOD! It's a tough world out there. I know we are in an everybody gets a trophy generation , but life is hard...you don't always win... the good guy does not always end up on top. Adversity and strength are needed to live in our world.

----------


## kfrost06

> so that doesn't mean he can't be *edjucated* and read about exactly what process is like.


Priceless^^^

----------


## kfrost06

> I saw that in this thread some one made reference to sharing personal experiences. Ok so the father would not have gone through becoming a woman ... so that doesn't mean he can't be edjucated and read about exactly what process is like. *I've never been an alcoholic but I know all the signs and emotional problems that go with it. So I should be able to understand and relate to an alcoholic on some level right?* As a parent you will go through tons of random things that you just can't expect or prepare...I used drugs...skipped school... got expelled...went to college ... dropped out....got my first high paying job... all of which my parents never did. But they were there for it all...and they helped me through it great. So i guess what i'm saying is a parent can't count on there own personal experiences as the sole basis for their parenting skills.



So maybe Alcoholics Anonymous meetings should be run by non-alcoholics that read up on the subject then by actual recovered alcoholics.

----------


## kfrost06

> Every child would do best if they were born to a mother and father (I think there is something to be gained from both sex, not just mother), to parents that are married, financially stable, love each other.
> 
> It never happens that way, girls get knocked up, people spit, have babies they don't want, do a shitty job, split custody, raise kids in bad neighborhoods, cigarette smoke, raise kids around drugs. A million ways str8 people f up a kid.
> 
> With gay men, were talking about a substantial outlay of cash, they really want that kid. I am yet to see a study were kids raised by gay parents are less likely to be happy. If they really want the baby and are going to put the effort into raising it, what's the problem? Not every household can be ideal.


Its a myth that hard-to-place children would have no other option, Groups like Adopt America (1-800-246-1731 or [email protected]) have hundreds of married couples who are willing to take even HIV-positive children.

----------


## kfrost06

A mountain of social science, the worlds major religions, common sense and observation tell us that children have the best chance to thrive in married, mother-and-father-based families. Why not give kids the best possible chance at a normal, healthy family life instead of using them to make a cultural statement?

----------


## kfrost06

> From what I've read there is no evidence of gay parents raising a higher number of gay kids. I know a guy who had lesbian parents and he's straight. He's actually quite a womanizer.


Then you have not read up on the subject which comes as no surprise. Social science evidence agrees that the best environment for the well-being of children is a household with both a mother and a father. A homosexual environment, on the other hand, can model homosexual behavior to children. In a study published in the January 1996 issue of Developmental Psychology, London researchers Susan Golombok and Fiona Tasker found that children raised by a homosexual parent were much more likely to experiment with homosexual behavior themselves. Based on their findings, Golombok and Tasker acknowledge that by creating a climate of acceptance or rejection of homosexuality within the family, parents may have some impact on their childrens sexual experimentation as heterosexual, lesbian or gay. The states interest in protecting children should continue prohibiting homosexual couples from adopting children. Although gay advocates say that some children will be languishing in foster homes, if willing, any homosexual could apply to adopt these hard-to-place children. This is because single persons  including a homosexual  can already qualify to be an adoptive parent (this is already occurring, primarily in the San Francisco and Los Angeles areas). Therefore, the push for homosexual couples to jointly adopt children is actually a back-door strategy to gain the rights and benefits of homosexual marriage. In addition, unmarried heterosexual couples living together should not be allowed to adopt because how can they commit their lives to a child when they refuse to commit to each other in marriage? California needs to continue the current policy where children are adopted by married couples first, and second by singles whom case workers judge to have a healthy home.

----------


## kfrost06

Stability is the key to raising an emotionally and mentally healthy child; unmarried and homosexual partners simply cannot provide the stability that married heterosexual couples can give. "*Children need a role model, both male and female. Every child has the right to both a mother and a father*,". *Homosexual activists put their personal desires above the rights of these children to have a chance at a normal family life with a father and mother.*

----------


## Carlos_E

> In a study published in the January 1996 issue of Developmental Psychology, London researchers Susan Golombok and Fiona Tasker found that *children raised by a homosexual parent were much more likely to experiment with homosexual behavior themselves.*


Experimenting doesn't make you gay or straight. Being less judgemental of the subject will not change your sexual orientation. 

You still did not prove that gay parents raise gay children.

----------


## Carlos_E

> Stability is the key to raising an emotionally and mentally healthy child; unmarried and homosexual partners simply cannot provide the stability that married heterosexual couples can give.


Bull.

----------


## SMCengineer

Personally, I don't really see this as a federal issue. It should definitely be handled at the state level. With that said, I'm all for glb adoption. I see nothing wrong with giving thousands of foster kids a loving family even if it's not an "ideal" situation, as some would have you believe. In fact, I see many potential positive attributes to glb adoption. Economically speaking, it would save the state millions of dollars by not having support thousands of children without a family. I would also _speculate_ that with increased adoption rates, incentive to have an abortion would decrease. All of this, while giving glb equal rights. 




> Interesting thought...what happens if we notice that the rate of homosexuality of these adopted *children to gay couples is significantly higher than compared to children of heterosexual couples?*


This is actually a good point. Although I don't see it as the parents influencing the childs sexuality, I could imagine that there would be a greater number of homosexual children to glb parents as compared to straight parents. I say this simply because with glb parents the social stigma would be all but removed from the childs upbringing and the child would be much less "ashamed" and confused about who he/she is.




> In a study published in the January 1996 issue of Developmental Psychology, London researchers Susan Golombok and Fiona Tasker found that children raised by a homosexual parent were much more likely to experiment with homosexual behavior themselves. Based on their findings, Golombok and Tasker acknowledge that by creating a climate of acceptance or rejection of homosexuality within the family, parents may have some impact on their childrens sexual experimentation as heterosexual, lesbian or gay.


Can you explain to me how this effects _your_ life and why we shouldn't be teaching acceptance?

----------


## zimmy

> So maybe Alcoholics Anonymous meetings should be run by non-alcoholics that read up on the subject then by actual recovered alcoholics.


um... i realize you were trying to make a point with sarcasm? But you do realize that the meetings are led by medical professionals not actual alcoholics right?

----------


## Kratos

> I.
> 
> 
> I saw that in this thread some one made reference to sharing personal experiences. Ok so the father would not have gone through becoming a woman ... so that doesn't mean he can't be edjucated and read about exactly what process is like. .


I wouldn't worry about that. Most kids learn sex ed in school these days, not from mom and dad. Girls don't want to hear about their female parts from mom anyway. I am glad me and my dad never had the talk.

----------


## kfrost06

> um... i realize you were trying to make a point with sarcasm? But you do realize that the meetings are led by medical professionals not actual alcoholics right?


WRONG! they are lead by recovering alcoholics, I can assure you, I am very well informed in this area. The whole movement was founded by an alcoholic and many meetings are closed meetings meaning for alcoholics only. Before you say anything you say your name and I am an alcoholic, then you speak. Your arguement backfired on you but thank you for an excellent example of why a father can not be a mother.

Hi, my name is Zimmy, I read about alcoholics so I will tell you guys what to do. Man, oh man, there are a lot of "old timers" in AA and you say that and you would be escorted off the premises very fast.

----------


## kfrost06

A father that helps his daughter shop for her first bra? insert a tampoon? I don't care if you read a book on it or have a female friend that will "help" no one knows when the first peroid is going to be and it will be arkward, having daddies there will not help! Wake up and quit being so selfish, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, IT'S ABOUT THE CHILD!

----------


## kfrost06

> I wouldn't worry about that. Most kids learn sex ed in school these days, not from mom and dad. Girls don't want to hear about their female parts from mom anyway. I am glad me and my dad never had the talk.


Believe it or not, some parents are so invovled in raising their children, they prefer to install their own morals rather then having the state do it.

----------


## Kratos

> Believe it or not, some parents are so invovled in raising their children, they prefer to install their own morals rather then having the state do it.


What do morals have to do with biology?

----------


## cslade305

I'll throw my experience in - I have two friends that are a gay couple. They have now been together over 25years. They have adopted twice, both are girls. Each time the birth mother actually chose them over hetrosexual couples. Interesting huh. Anyway, the girls are 14 and 12. They are incredibly well adjusted, smart, stable and loved beyond measure. They have female cousins, aunts and female family friends who are a part of their lives. They know they are adopted now that they are older. I don't think you could convince either one of them they would have been better off than with anyone other than their Dad and Papa. I think stability and love can trump a lot of hardships in a kids life. If a child grows up knowing he/she is loved, nutured, supported and encourged - they can learn that they define who they are not others. Wouldn't it be great if we all could learn at an early age not to worry about what other people think. The things we could achive could be incredible. Anyway, my friends may not be the norm, but they are an example that it can work very successfully.

----------


## Carlos_E

> A father that helps his daughter shop for her first bra? insert a tampoon? I don't care if you read a book on it or have a female friend that will "help" no one knows when the first peroid is going to be and it will be arkward, having daddies there will not help! Wake up and quit being so selfish, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, IT'S ABOUT THE CHILD!


Then you should start your own personal campaign to remove all female children raised by single fathers. You're ridiculous!  :LOL:

----------


## Kratos

> A father that helps his daughter shop for her first bra? insert a tampoon? I don't care if you read a book on it or have a female friend that will "help" no one knows when the first peroid is going to be and it will be arkward, having daddies there will not help! Wake up and quit being so selfish, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, IT'S ABOUT THE CHILD!


Two girls in my middle school leaked period blood all over their desk in school. They had mom's. I know one girl who had a similar problem wearing a white bathing suit at the beach.

School teaches about the feminine products and how to use them, dad just has to go to the store with her and pay, not a big deal.

First bra, not that tough. She'll develop her own taste quickly. My last gf's mother was totally involved. Lets just say the underwear her mom bought fell under the granny panty catagory in high school. She got made fun of in class for it. While I was dating her so only wore sexy underwear as a result.

----------


## Kratos

Until I see studies saying the kids are worse off, I'm not going to concern myself with what other people are doing.

----------


## kfrost06

> What do morals have to do with biology?


oh the irony, you argue for 2 guys having kids and then talk about the biology, can't have it both ways. As for sex ed., in Canada the age of consent is 14! Some people, heavens forbid I say people with morals, do not want their biologically able daughters prograting at that age even if it's taught by the state run schools that it's o.k. In CO teaching abstinence to students in sex education is BANNED! It's not the job of the state but the parents to decide what is best for the child. The state's version changes depending on who's in office.

----------


## kfrost06

A family which incorporates into itself little of the past and, of that which it does incorporate, little of high quality, deadens its offspring; it leaves them with a scanty set of beliefs...the offspring are left to define their own standards; this means the acceptance of the norms of their most imposing coevals.

When the school tries to substitute for the family as the shaper of personal values, it weakens the authority of the family. If the school weakens the family, it will contribute more to the increase of venereal disease and unwedded motherhood among teenagers.

----------


## Kratos

If I had to listen to my dad talk about errections and seemen, I'd be damaged for life. The sex ed I had had little to do with morals. I do think the parents should own that resposibility.

----------


## kfrost06

> Until I see studies saying the kids are worse off, I'm not going to concern myself with what other people are doing.


Do you need to see evidence that throwing a kid over the cliff is detremental before you deam it wrong? How about using common sense and let's not treat kids as guniea pigs for a social experiment. My God, suppose we try new drugs on kids till we find out if they work or not, well unless we KNOW it's bad for them then why not?

Again, children are not guninea pigs

----------


## wantmoremass

> Then you should start your own personal campaign to remove all female children raised by single fathers. You're ridiculous!


Exactly, or how about single mothers raising sons - I'm sure a woman couldn't read enough to be educated to explain masturbation, or erections to a boy.  :Aajack:

----------


## kfrost06

> Exactly, or how about single mothers raising sons - I'm sure a woman couldn't read enough to be educated to explain masturbation, or erections to a boy.


I think a single mother has had some experience with erections, hence her new title, mother. Besides, the vast majority of single mothers are mothers to their biological child as designed by nature. Want to cry about 2 guys not being able to have a baby, take it up with either God or mother nature(thats mother nature, not 2 daddies nature).

----------


## Kratos

> Do you need to see evidence that throwing a kid over the cliff is detremental before you deam it wrong? How about using common sense and let's not treat kids as guniea pigs for a social experiment. My God, suppose we try new drugs on kids till we find out if they work or not, well unless we KNOW it's bad for them then why not?
> 
> Again, children are not guninea pigs


Let's talk about what there are studies for...More single parents of low education producing children. I'd rather see an educated gay couple, I think that kid has more of a chance. How does this effect your life and why is it important to you? You don't want the govt. in your family life, right?

----------


## Peducho0113

Great Article Carlos Thanks for Sharing with us

----------


## Kratos

What kind of example is it for a young man when his dad has 5 baby mamas'? Not your family, not your morals, not your llife.

----------


## Carlos_E

> Until I see studies saying the kids are worse off, I'm not going to concern myself with what other people are doing.


They are worse off because kfrost06 says so!

----------


## wantmoremass

> Wouldn't it be great if we all could learn at an early age not to worry about what other people think. The things we could achive could be incredible. Anyway, my friends may not be the norm, but they are an example that it can work very successfully.


I agree with you - if kids didn't grow up knowing any different, they wouldn't be pre-set with the judgments and prejudices of lots of people. My aunt and her partner have been together close to 30 years. My aunt had a son out of wedlock (and never heard from the father again) and met my other aunt and they've been together since and raised my cousin. He turned out straight , is married and is a junior lawyer. He's pretty well-balanced (besides being a sports nut) and has a very open-minded view of the world.

I think a parenting instinct is innate in people. I've seen straight folks that didn't want kids, and some that definitely shouldn't have had kids. Likewise, I know gay people who don't want kids, and some that have that same parenting instinct and desire to raise children. I don't think sexuality drives or precludes that need/desire.

----------


## wantmoremass

> I think a single mother has had some experience with erections, hence her new title, mother. Besides, the vast majority of single mothers are mothers to their biological child as designed by nature. Want to cry about 2 guys not being able to have a baby, take it up with either God or mother nature(thats mother nature, not 2 daddies nature).


i wouldn't cry about 2 guys not being able to have a baby - because they can per the article at the top of the thread. there are lots of people that are willing to give them the opportunity to raise kids (open adoption moms, surrogates, adoption agencies, foster child services), at least where i live.

what about sterile women - should they not be able to adopt, being that nature decided they shouldn't have kids?

----------


## SMCengineer

> Can you explain to me how this effects _your_ life and why we shouldn't be teaching acceptance?


Kfrost, as a so called conservative, you should be asking yourself how this encroaches on _your_ individual freedom.

----------


## DSM4Life

> *Let's talk about what there are studies for*...More single parents of low education producing children. I'd rather see an educated gay couple, I think that kid has more of a chance. How does this effect your life and why is it important to you? You don't want the govt. in your family life, right?


Thank you ! 


*kfrost06*

Try reading a little bit on the subject before replying. Your replys are personal believes which i respect but don't try and push them off as facts because when you do it makes you sound.....dumb.

----------


## T3/T4 GSR

I would be all for this as being a fantastic idea if it wasn't for that fact that I see this as a potential threat to the childs well being on a social level in school. I truely feel that a homosexual couple could provide a loving and nurturing home for a child and raise them as good as anyone else. However, this child is now in a positon to be picked on badly as a child. These gay men and woman will have a child comming home from school crying everyday because of what was said about them and their parents. Unfortunately most of society doesn't share the view point that this is an acceptable practice especially at a young age. Many parents preach intolerance towards homosexuals and if there is 100 kids and 10 parents are like this they will spread this to their friends in school. Even if the other kids parents say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality and to accept everyone most of them will follow their peers and bash on the kid. So I really wish the best to homosexual parents and I know THEY will do a good job but I don't know how well it will work for the children outside the home at a young age. I will be very intersted to see the statistics on the suicide rate of these kids 20 years from now and also those who commit acts of violence against class mates due to the teasing such as school shootings. I am sure suicide and shootings will be a vast minority btu it is still a tragic circumstance.

----------


## Amorphic

everyone should be more worried about socioeconomic status and lifestyle rather than sexuality of parents. low SES and social support are far more detrimental to children than having homosexual parents.

this argument is ridiculous.

----------


## Carlos_E

> I would be all for this as being a fantastic idea if it wasn't for that fact that I see this as a potential threat to the childs well being on a social level in school. I truely feel that a homosexual couple could provide a loving and nurturing home for a child and raise them as good as anyone else. However, this child is now in a positon to be picked on badly as a child. These gay men and woman will have a child comming home from school crying everyday because of what was said about them and their parents. Unfortunately most of society doesn't share the view point that this is an acceptable practice especially at a young age. Many parents preach intolerance towards homosexuals and if there is 100 kids and 10 parents are like this they will spread this to their friends in school. Even if the other kids parents say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality and to accept everyone most of them will follow their peers and bash on the kid. So I really wish the best to homosexual parents and I know THEY will do a good job but I don't know how well it will work for the children outside the home at a young age. I will be very intersted to see the statistics on the suicide rate of these kids 20 years from now and also those who commit acts of violence against class mates due to the teasing such as school shootings. I am sure suicide and shootings will be a vast minority btu it is still a tragic circumstance.


I grew up in an ALL WHITE town. I got teased, had the N word written on my locker so many times we lost count. It's no different. People pick on people because they are different. Should my parents have not had children because their kids were picked on for being a different color than everyone else in the area? Switch the word homosexual in your post for Black, White, Asain or Latino and it doesn't make sense.

----------


## Coop77

The argument that gay couples shouldn't be allowed to raise children because the child might get picked on at school.. is absurd. All kids get picked on at some point for some thing or another. What if somebody's name is Mr & Mrs Smallcock.. Should they not be allowed to have children because their kid might take some shit for his name?

----------


## DeputyLoneWolf

Choosing to be homosexual is a crime against Nature and God. *TWO MEN CANNOT HAVE A BABY NATURALLY AND NEITHER CAN WOMEN!!! THIS IS FOR A REASON!!! HOLY CRAP WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THIS AND STOP ONLY THINKING ABOUT THEMSELVES!?!?* 

DUH!!! 

Wake up people, your sin and lust has blinded you. Period.

----------


## godkilla

> Choosing to be homosexual is a crime against Nature and God. *TWO MEN CANNOT HAVE A BABY NATURALLY AND NEITHER CAN WOMEN!!! THIS IS FOR A REASON!!! HOLY CRAP WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THIS AND STOP ONLY THINKING ABOUT THEMSELVES!?!?* 
> 
> DUH!!! 
> 
> Wake up people, your sin and lust has blinded you. Period.


and i thought my teasing arguement was weak.

----------


## Amorphic

> Choosing to be homosexual is a crime against Nature and God. *TWO MEN CANNOT HAVE A BABY NATURALLY AND NEITHER CAN WOMEN!!! THIS IS FOR A REASON!!! HOLY CRAP WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THIS AND STOP ONLY THINKING ABOUT THEMSELVES!?!?* 
> 
> DUH!!! 
> 
> Wake up people, your sin and lust has blinded you. Period.


unbelievable. you're lucky all you got was a suspension for this.

pathetic.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> A mountain of social science, the worlds major religions, common sense and observation tell us that children have the best chance to thrive in married, mother-and-father-based families. Why not give kids the best possible chance at a normal, healthy family life instead of using them to make a cultural statement?


But the situation isnt like you describe it. The gay parents in this case impregnate a surogate mother that carries the baby for them. Withouth the gay parents there would be no child, so the chooise is in reality.

1. A baby is born to the world that will be raised by two men.

2. No baby is born.

The third option, a baby beeing born and raised by two parents of different sex doesnt even enter the picture. So then the real question is, do you think its better that the baby isnt brought to this world rather than having it raised by two men?

----------


## Kärnfysikern

The problem in this discussion seems to be that the gay parents are compared to some kind of ideal straight couple.

But in reality how many kids are raised by those ideal straight parents? If I think about my friends I only know two that wasnt raised in a home with divorced parents, one parent dead, one parent alcholic or some other thing that made the parents less than ideal.

If you compare a dedicated gay couple raising a kid to the avarage parents, will they be better or worse? Thats a more valid question than to compare the gay couple to the ideal parents that mostly exist in fantasyland. I suspect that a gay couple that goes to the extent of finding a surogate mother etc shows alot more dedication from the start to their kid than most regular parents do.

----------


## T3/T4 GSR

> I grew up in an ALL WHITE town. I got teased, had the N word written on my locker so many times we lost count. It's no different. People pick on people because they are different. Should my parents have not had children because their kids were picked on for being a different color than everyone else in the area? Switch the word homosexual in your post for Black, White, Asain or Latino and it doesn't make sense.


 Point taken but don't you think some kids will end up resenting their parents growing up knowing they chose to bring them into that situation? A black kid knows his parents did the normal thing by having a baby but this kid will know his gay parents went out of their way to do something that is considered unacceptable by their peers. Look I see your point and I am all for it but as someone who was born with a disability and picked on for it as a kid I would do anything I can to make sure I never brought anyone into the world where I knew this was something they were going to endure.

----------


## DSM4Life

> Point taken but don't you think some kids will end up resenting their parents growing up knowing they chose to bring them into that situation? A black kid knows his parents did the normal thing by having a baby but *this kid will know his gay parents went out of their way to do something that is considered unacceptable by their peers*. Look I see your point and I am all for it but as someone who was born with a disability and picked on for it as a kid I would do anything I can to make sure I never brought anyone into the world where I knew this was something they were going to endure.


Im sure that kid sitting in a shelter with no one to love him would be more then happy to know that his two fathers/mothers went out of their way to adopt and love him/her the way they should be loved.

----------


## Andro9

> Choosing to be homosexual is a crime against Nature and God. *TWO MEN CANNOT HAVE A BABY NATURALLY AND NEITHER CAN WOMEN!!! THIS IS FOR A REASON!!! HOLY CRAP WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THIS AND STOP ONLY THINKING ABOUT THEMSELVES!?!?* 
> 
> DUH!!! 
> 
> Wake up people, your sin and lust has blinded you. Period.



this is the kind of shit that makes me sick.. you..sir.. are a ****ing douche bag. i am not gay but, i believe that everyone should have the right to do or be whatever the hell they want without cocksvckers like you putting them down. man you really pissed me off.. btw werent you the one that kept saying you were a cop.. well i think you'll make a good fat useless pig  :Bbargg:

----------


## T3/T4 GSR

> Im sure that kid sitting in a shelter with no one to love him would be more then happy to know that his two fathers/mothers went out of their way to adopt and love him/her the way they should be loved.


 This isn't about adopting though this is about surrogate pregnancy

----------


## DSM4Life

> This isn't about adopting though this is about surrogate pregnancy


So does that mean you would agree or disagree with my scenario ?

----------


## T3/T4 GSR

I see a bit of a difference in the mental attitude of a kid who was already born and grew up with nothing living in a shelter over someone born into the situation. The kid living in a shelter will have seen what it is like to have nothing and not take it for granted. The kid growing up as a biological child to one of the fathers may feel differently and resent his parents due to how his peers treat him. He will probably eventually grow up and accept it and appreciate them but as a kid being tormented he most definetly wont.

----------


## Act of God

Ok, 

As for adopting, I am 100% for it. Surrogate parenting, not so much. The reason isn't because they are gay...it's that gay people aren't supposed to procreate. One of the benefits of more gay people is LESS BREEDING. This planet is horribly overpopulated, no need to add to the problem (especially if you can't do it naturally). There are so many parent-less children out there do you (or anyone for that matter) really have the need to make one of your own out of pure egotism?

Ooooh, let's see what a little me would look like!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=suxzXdl87Zc&feature=related
Skip to about 1 minute in, funny but true

----------


## wantmoremass

> Ok, 
> 
> As for adopting, I am 100% for it. Surrogate parenting, not so much. The reason isn't because they are gay...it's that gay people aren't supposed to procreate. One of the benefits of more gay people is LESS BREEDING. This planet is horribly overpopulated, no need to add to the problem (especially if you can't do it naturally). There are so many parent-less children out there do you (or anyone for that matter) really have the need to make one of your own out of pure egotism?
> 
> Ooooh, let's see what a little me would look like!


what about a sterile straight couple - maybe they're not 'supposed' to procreate - would the same logic hold true for them if they wanted to parent?

----------


## Act of God

> what about a sterile straight couple - maybe they're not 'supposed' to procreate - would the same logic hold true for them if they wanted to parent?


Yes. Mind you, I'm not saying I would do anything to stop anyone from doing it...I just would prefer if they didn't. I'm starting to think that anyone who has more than 2 kids is just plain selfish given today's world.

----------


## DSM4Life

> I see a bit of a difference in the mental attitude of a kid who was already born and grew up with nothing living in a shelter over someone born into the situation. The kid living in a shelter will have seen what it is like to have nothing and not take it for granted. _The kid growing up as a biological child to one of the fathers may feel differently and resent his parents due to how his peers treat him._ He will probably eventually grow up and accept it and appreciate them but as a kid being tormented he most definetly wont.


So children from straight couples never take their parents for granted ?

Your second point insinuates that its how a child is treated by their peers that determines if he/she will resent his parent ?


I think when it all comes down to it you don't have a clue how another human being would feel given this situation.

----------


## kfrost06

> So children from straight couples never take their parents for granted ?
> 
> Your second point insinuates that its how a child is treated by their peers that determines if he/she will resent his parent ?
> 
> 
> I think when it all comes down to it you don't have a clue how another human being would feel given this situation.


I can agree with you that his arguement is weak, very weak. It's the equivalent as saying a black couple should not have a kid because of racism and the kid(s) would be teased for being black. Again that agruement is pathetic. Besides, every child at some point resents their parents. I hated mine because I had to get up and go swimming every morning but I got over it and realised I was a lucky kid.

However, since (hopefully) we can all agree the childs best interest should be the number one priorty, over everything, even politics. I would like someone to argue why 2 dads or even 5 dads for that matter is better then 1 mom. I see it like this, a mother has, lets say, motherly instincts. Whether through nature or God(you have to believe in at least one) has designed women to bear children and rear them and I am talking more than biology. There is a certian nurturing quality a mother has that no man can ever duplicate. With this arguement which is often used in custody hearings to the benefit of women and to the child should also be used in adoption and it is, unless politics takes over.

Seriously, keep an open mind before you respond and think what your childhood would be like without your mother and answer honestly.

----------


## kfrost06

> But the situation isnt like you describe it. The gay parents in this case impregnate a surogate mother that carries the baby for them. Withouth the gay parents there would be no child, so the chooise is in reality.
> 
> 1. A baby is born to the world that will be raised by two men.
> 
> 2. No baby is born.
> 
> The third option, a baby beeing born and raised by two parents of different sex doesnt even enter the picture. So then the real question is, do you think its better that the baby isnt brought to this world rather than having it raised by two men?


well the article starts literally in the first 2 words, "Using adoption" and thats the direction the thread has gone and that is what my responses are geared towards.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> well the article starts literally in the first 2 words, "Using adoption" and thats the direction the thread has gone and that is what my responses are geared towards.


But the rest of the article was more about surogate  :Smilie: 

Now when it comes to adoption I se no problem. it would be interesting to se some statistics on adoption though, i.e are there more kids up for adoption than there are parents willing to adopt?

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> IHowever, since (hopefully) we can all agree the childs best interest should be the number one priorty, over everything, even politics. I would like someone to argue why 2 dads or even 5 dads for that matter is better then 1 mom. I see it like this, a mother has, lets say, motherly instincts. Whether through nature or God(you have to believe in at least one) has designed women to bear children and rear them and I am talking more than biology. There is a certian nurturing quality a mother has that no man can ever duplicate. With this arguement which is often used in custody hearings to the benefit of women and to the child should also be used in adoption and it is, unless politics takes over.
> 
> Seriously, keep an open mind before you respond and think what your childhood would be like without your mother and answer honestly.


Honestly? Well looking back, if I could "redo" my life I would have rather spent my childhood with two loving gay parents than with my biological parents. Just because a man and a woman can make a child doesnt mean they are worth anything as parents.

----------


## DSM4Life

> However, since (hopefully) we can all agree the childs best interest should be the number one priorty, over everything, even politics. I would like someone to argue why 2 dads or even 5 dads for that matter is better then 1 mom. I see it like this, a mother has, lets say, motherly instincts. Whether through nature or God(you have to believe in at least one) has designed women to bear children and rear them and I am talking more than biology. There is a certian nurturing quality a mother has that no man can ever duplicate. With this arguement which is often used in custody hearings to the benefit of women and to the child should also be used in adoption and it is, unless politics takes over.


*

I would like someone to argue why 2 dads or even 5 dads for that matter is better then 1 mom.*

I feel too many people emphasize on the gender of the parents. There is no way to argue that one mother is better then five fathers or vise versa. In my eyes the most vidal part to raising a child is to have *a* parent that has unconditional love for their child. Doesn't matter if its a mother+ father, father+father, or a mother+mother. If you are going to love the child and raise the child to the best of your ability then i think that person(s) are fit to be a parent.
*
Whether through nature or God(you have to believe in at least one) has designed women to bear children and rear them and I am talking more than biology.*
I don't believe in god so i can't get too deep into this one. 
Just to scratch the surface of this one, nothing in this world is perfect. All you can do is make the best of what cards you were delt.
*
There is a certian nurturing quality a mother has that no man can ever duplicate.*

False, false ,false. Again stop using your fairytails as facts. If this were true how come so many mothers give their children up ? How come some mothers give birth to a child and put him in a trash can and walk away ?
You can't say that all mothers have this quality which discredits your statement but i do agree that the good ones do.

----------


## T3/T4 GSR

> So children from straight couples never take their parents for granted ?
> 
> Your second point insinuates that its how a child is treated by their peers that determines if he/she will resent his parent ?
> 
> 
> I think when it all comes down to it you don't have a clue how another human being would feel given this situation.


Of course they do. Look I don't have a crystal ball and obviously I can't predict how every person will feel about any situation. I can only go by how I think it just might go for them. This is just one of those things where you will have your opinion on how a person might feel in a certain situation and I have mine. If a gay couple want to have a kid with a surrogate parent I think they should have that choice I just don't think it is the best option. Adopting a kid is a better way to go IMO giving the amount of children who are in need of adoption all over the world. Since gays can't have kids naturally maybe this is the best solution since they can give a kid a warm loving home that they otherwise may have never had.

----------


## Information

> this is the kind of shit that makes me sick.. you..sir.. are a ****ing douche bag. i am not gay but, i believe that everyone should have the right to do or be whatever the hell they want without cocksvckers like you putting them down. man you really pissed me off.. btw werent you the one that kept saying you were a cop.. well i think you'll make a good fat useless pig


*Check your PMs.*

----------


## RA

> A father that helps his daughter shop for her first bra? insert a tampoon? I don't care if you read a book on it or have a female friend that will "help" no one knows when the first peroid is going to be and it will be arkward, having daddies there will not help! Wake up and quit being so selfish, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, IT'S ABOUT THE CHILD!


 
Im not a homosexual parent advocate but certainly a good father can help guide their daughter through these things. If a father, can get over their qualms about discussing these issues their daughters would listen. I talk to my oldest all the time about this stuff and shes going through puberty.

----------


## Carlos_E

> Im not a homosexual parent advocate but certainly a good father can help guide their daughter through these things. If a father, can get over their qualms about discussing these issues their daughters would listen. I talk to my oldest all the time about this stuff and shes going through puberty.


I didn't know you had kids. How old are they?

----------


## RA

12, 8, 6, 4 G,B,G,G Awesome kids :Wink/Grin: 






> I didn't know you had kids. How old are they?

----------


## Carlos_E

> 12, 8, 6, 4 G,B,G,G Awesome kids


Congrats man!

How do they feel about having a gay dad?  :LOL: 






Sorry, i couldn't resist!  :LOL:

----------


## RA

LOL, Carlos you suspect every guy is gay. 





> Congrats man!
> 
> How do they feel about having a gay dad? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, i couldn't resist!

----------


## Carlos_E

> LOL, Carlos you suspect every guy is gay.


Just joking man.

----------


## RA

> Just joking man.


I know.  :Wink/Grin: 

I will say this. Ive never seen homosexuals raising a child living in a beat up trailer and the kids running around in the yard with a diaper that should have been changed...yesterday...

----------


## kfrost06

> I will say this. Ive never seen homosexuals raising a child living in a beat up trailer and the kids running around in the yard with a diaper that should have been changed...yesterday...


I will say this. Ive never seen homosexual men raising a child and breast feeding him/her in public. I wonder why? Maybe we can make a law requiring nature to allow men to breast feed too.

----------


## Kärnfysikern

> I will say this. Ive never seen homosexual men raising a child and breast feeding him/her in public. I wonder why? Maybe we can make a law requiring nature to allow men to breast feed too.


Men have all the neccesary gland etc to produce milk. They just need to intentionaly develop a bad case of gyno  :Big Grin:

----------


## RA

Kids _should_ have a mother and father. No question. But in the absence of that Ive seen places that are much worse. The children of homosexual couples that I have seen look well groomed and, for the most part, are well behaved.





> I will say this. Ive never seen homosexual men raising a child and breast feeding him/her in public. I wonder why? Maybe we can make a law requiring nature to allow men to breast feed too.

----------


## DeputyLoneWolf

> this is the kind of shit that makes me sick.. you..sir.. are a ****ing douche bag. i am not gay but, i believe that everyone should have the right to do or be whatever the hell they want without cocksvckers like you putting them down. man you really pissed me off.. btw werent you the one that kept saying you were a cop.. well i think you'll make a good fat useless pig



I think I should have put my last post in other words and also I feel I should explain myself. I do not support the acts of homosexuality and do not condone it. However I do not hate anyone that is homosexual. I hate the acts as I feel they are wrong and not what God or nature intended. I would not have a problem lifting in the same gym and have with guys and girls that are homosexual. I have had them as training partners. They knew my views and respected them and I appreciated that. I also knew theres and we never got in any arguments. We respectfully disagreed on things, politics included lol. Well I hope that cleared up things a little. 

DLW

----------

