# FITNESS and NUTRITION FORUM > INJURIES, REHAB & SPA >  Lower & mid back pain every morning, frustrated..

## Fiskevatten

Goodmorning!

I have had lower and mid back pain since day after Christmas (closing in on 5 months).
It started with an injury from combining gym and dancing same day, couldn't move the day after from pain, but after a week
it progressed to this constant dull ache daily.
Then that pain disappeared as soon as I move and is just present mornings, at massage (pressing at inflammed area), or 
a few stretchy exercises.

I went to:
- HomeDepot for new mattress, first months I tried memory foam and last months I tried a hard one (same results on both).
- Doctor for X-rax. Nothing on spine, bone or fluid. He also mentioned bed.
- Massage therapy. They stated I was super stiff, but massaging it our several times did nada.
- Chiropractor. He said I did not have bone issues so no need to crack and I had balance in body, but spine couldn't move freely because of stiff muscles.
- PhysioTherapy. She said also that I had stiff muscles and massage can't release it, I did a stretching machine and then got instructions on hip muscle releasing stretches 10mins a day.

So it seems to be muscle according to most, maybe some scar tissue needing time and work? Last 3 weeks I have stretched 20mins before and after gym everyday, as well as
doing light stretching exercises between sets and exercises.
I have no pain during gym, opposite I feel fantastic when I move, and the entire day as long as no one presses on the inflammed points. Asap in the morning I feel
my entire back is painfully stiff and I need to stretch before I can get out of bed fully.

Right now I am on TRT, tried all kinds of remedies and drink plenty of fluid.
I have also 1-2 times a week done Ice and Hot water dips.

Anyone have any idea what above can be and what to do? Greatly appreciated!

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## Ghostman_SW

Have you thought about taking a Yoga class as opposed to the stretching you have tried?

Also, have you tried using a massage gun? I know you mentioned massage therapy but trying to think of some alternatives for breaking up scar tissue.

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## s1nc1ty

Do you train your lower back decently? Ive heard that lower back pains can often be because of weak lower back. If you dont i recomend back extentions great exercise for lower back

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## Fiskevatten

Haven't tried Yoga, but been recommended it at the gym, might give that a shot. I do have a massage gun that feels wonderful, but unfortunately doesn't better
my back. :/

I train lower back in my opinion a lot without overdoing it, from isolated exercises straight and sides, to inclusive like deads, squats, lunges, stability etc.
But I will say that I have been suspecting that my core isn't balanced enough before the injury and I might have been late being more strict on training
around the core/ back.
Another factor was weak glutes which can cause lower back pain, but that hasn't helped so far doing more isolated movements.

Interesting fact, I went to a Buddha temple and was to sit in a respectful manner having both legs to the side and sit straight up, being able
to pray towards floor as well. I couldn't do it, so the monk did a spiritual healing ritual with a golden stick lol.
Regardless, it shows that I am indeed way to stiff and can't sit normally on floor. Starts to get better though, but if more have likewise
issues they might test it and see if they can or can't before issue becomes worse.

However, I have placed a pillow under my hamstrings and one extra under head, that has helped lower back pain, but not mid.
Most likely in combination with all focus and stretching, so maybe moving in the right direction - would make me super happy going back to
whole, been wanting to train boxing again but been scared for the back.

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## almostgone

If the chiropractor or PT is sure it is tight muscles, that what I would address. Stretching will help you long run, but it won't break up stick tissue or scar tissue. Look for someone qualified in Graston work or scraping techniques.

Tight hams and tight hips can cause you a world of discomfort, particularly in the lower back.

Once you get straightened out, keep up the stretching or yoga, and I recommend deep tissue work every 6 weeks or so.

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## Fiskevatten

Update: I've become more flexible, that's for sure! But my injury is still the same no matter what I do...
I bought a lacrosse ball or whatever it's called and massaged everything from top til toe and found some painful spots, but even when they are soft
I still feel the same each morning I wake up.
Tried stretching before and after gym, and before bed, same.
Tried swapping beds between hard and soft and same.

It's crossing on 6 months now and they say it's a muscular issue and I will feel better within 72 hours after their recommendations, but nothing.
I can feel it's muscular and deep, when pressing at pain spots it feel inflammed down to core and spreaded out.

The strange thing is that it doesn't hinder any daily activities, I feel great as soon as I move and I can squat, dead and all else as normal.
Just disrupts sleep and worst when I wake up.

Any ideas?

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## lovbyts

Well Ive had a LOT of experience with back injuries as well as 2 surgeries. Ice, Ice, Ice helps more than anything and yes muscle strain causing a disk to compress and cause pain can take months sometimes to get better.

There are also things an xray wont every show such as Spinal stenosis (narrowing of spaces in the spine) or buildup causing pressure. When I had my 1st surgery on L3 & L4 they cleaned out the deposit also but warned me one little slip and it could cause a lot more problems. Luckily everything went well.

I tried the memory foam mattress for a while and it felt good, at first but a couple of months later I was asking the doctor to do every test available for arthritis because ALL my joints hurt so bad. The memory foam kept me from moving during the night and caused my Fibromyalgia to get 10x worse. I really didnt realize I had it until then. Anti inflammatory helps a little.

I often wonder what it would be like to wake up not in pain. I honestly cant remember what it was like. I have been playing with the idea of getting a water bed again because I remember that was the best sleep I ever had growing up. 90% waveless, 

I had a sleep apnea study done and of course they said I had it because its a big business, money maker. Yeah I woke up a LOT during the night but turns out it was due mostly because of pain.

Im the same, I always feel better the more I do but its hard to get motivated sometimes due to other aches & pains.

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## almostgone

> Update: I've become more flexible, that's for sure! But my injury is still the same no matter what I do...
> I bought a lacrosse ball or whatever it's called and massaged everything from top til toe and found some painful spots, but even when they are soft
> I still feel the same each morning I wake up.
> Tried stretching before and after gym, and before bed, same.
> Tried swapping beds between hard and soft and same.
> 
> It's crossing on 6 months now and they say it's a muscular issue and I will feel better within 72 hours after their recommendations, but nothing.
> I can feel it's muscular and deep, when pressing at pain spots it feel inflammed down to core and spreaded out.
> 
> ...


Like Lovbyts suggested, it may be time for an MRI. When they first diagnosed my neck issues, they were working off of X-rays and had a general idea of what was going on and I continued in PT. 

After I convinced them to get my NCV study done and 2 MRIs, they really started pushing to get me in with the neurosurgeon due to the damage done and the risks I was looking at. After the COVID debacle, I finally was able to get my surgery scheduled.


One other thing they might consider in the meantime is trigger point injections. They do give some relief to inflamed/spasming knotted up tissue.. Personally, I like to get some deep tissue done a day or so post-injection. However, my trigger points didn't let off after a night's sleep like yours, so no guarantees they would help.

Keep pushing for an answer, this doesn't just sound like a typical muscle strain.

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## Fiskevatten

I truly appreciate it guys! As Lovbyts mentioned, the motivation getting up and start the day is damn hard, the sitting at bed-corner "warming up" takes forever it feels like and mood is low, but when
day starts all comes back to normal.
My dad is one of the old generations who work and never complain even after several surgeries, he has a book of issues from shoulders to back to quads, but he sees the moving for relied a 
motivation and wakes up immediately - pretty cool!

A few bodybuilder friends do spot injections and says it helps immensely, but only as long as it acts. Another friend here recommended me stem-cells, but it's very pricey.
I should expect 6000 Euro at least.
I found some release after doing tons of lower back exercises and sleeping on side with pillow between legs, but one turn in the night wrong and all pain is back.
Plus, exercising wrong or too much can backfire, but at this point I am too frustrated to care tbh.
I am looking to do a heavy cycle August, so truly hope I can find some kind of solution, if not better until then I will do the MRI and a full check-up, I believe I can get
it on insurance here.

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## lovbyts

> Like Lovbyts suggested, it may be time for an MRI. When they first diagnosed my neck issues, they were working off of X-rays and had a general idea of what was going on and I continued in PT. 
> 
> After I convinced them to get my NCV study done and 2 MRIs, they really started pushing to get me in with the neurosurgeon due to the damage done and the risks I was looking at. After the COVID debacle, I finally was able to get my surgery scheduled.
> 
> 
> One other thing they might consider in the meantime is trigger point injections. They do give some relief to inflamed/spasming knotted up tissue.. Personally, I like to get some deep tissue before done a day or so post-injection. However, my trigger points didn't let off after a night's sleep like yours, so no guarantees they would help.
> 
> Keep pushing for an answer, this doesn't just sound like a typical muscle strain.


Speaking of neck injuries, did yours get worse, better or stay the same over the whole covid timeline?

If you remember I injured mine Several years ago but it got better on its own, Then a little over 1year ago right after my 2nd full shoulder replacement on the left side April 2021 I was laying on my back trying to fix something under the dash of my car and my neck & upper back cramped BAD. It caused my neck to pop/crack (I use to crack it all the time to relieve pressure but stopped the habit several years ago) and pinched really bad. I actually stayed home from work for a couple days because I couldn't drive.

I had 2 x-rays done and both doctors/chiropractors said it looked like an old injury (it was) but my c6/c7 was pinched, bone on bone. I tried a LOT of ice and it helped. I tried chiropractic and it actually make it worse. Pain meds helped slightly and anti inflammatory a little also. Lots of massage therapy helped a little. I also used neck traction (helped the most) and a brace off and on.

Fast forward 1yr 2 months and its definitely still there but still SLOWLY getting better. I fell like it is slowly self fusing again like it did before but Im not loosing as much of my ROM as I did last time.

Hopefully your surgery fixes you 100%

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## Fiskevatten

UPDATE:

Finally got the damn answer why I've been in pain for so long and nothing has helped.
Apparently the "sponge" between my discs is degenerated (almost gone), seems to be located at L5 lowest lowest in back.

The fun thing he said is that everything from bending, jumping, pressing (up), to getting hit, or gain weight will cause further injury and speed
up the time when I need operation (not a question IF, but WHEN). Luckily the nerve is not pinched, but he said it could happen
and he said luckily it does not affect my daily activities, so operation won't be before the pain is unbearable.

He also mentioned they have two operations available.
1) Standard where they remove the disc and fuse spine at the injury together. This one will remove pain, but will cause damage to other discs
since the load will be heavier on fewer.

2) Alternative where they "make" a sponge tool, but this one had no longterm data to back it up how it works.

He recommended the standard one in the future.
I was planing a heavy cycle August and my life is in sports, so I will live the same with causion towards extreme things.
I asked how this is compared to hernia in terms of issues and he said hernia is a cake-walk in comparison lol

Anyone else has similar issues and what they did?

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## lovbyts

Do NOT get the spine fused IMO. I still hear a lot of horror stories about that and over time it will self fuse. Yes mine did. I had L3 & L4 herniated badly and did surgery. It was great. 2 years later L5/S1 Ruptured and had it fixed/shaved and the pieces removed that were floating around. I was 90% paralyzed from the waste down until the surgery and the worse pain ever. Surgery fixed it 80% Over time its gotten better and better due to fusing. How do I know? It wont crack anymore. I use to twist and crack it multiple times a day to relieve pressure. Now never.

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## Fiskevatten

> Do NOT get the spine fused IMO. I still hear a lot of horror stories about that and over time it will self fuse. Yes mine did. I had L3 & L4 herniated badly and did surgery. It was great. 2 years later L5/S1 Ruptured and had it fixed/shaved and the pieces removed that were floating around. I was 90% paralyzed from the waste down until the surgery and the worse pain ever. Surgery fixed it 80% Over time its gotten better and better due to fusing. How do I know? It wont crack anymore. I use to twist and crack it multiple times a day to relieve pressure. Now never.


Snap! That sounded worse than my doctor described it and he made me sink a lot. He also mentioned the risks with fusing, but I have never heard of it self-fusing? After talking with the surgeon again he said I most likely have DDD (Degenerate Disc Disease) and he sad it will get
worse overtime. I started looking at YTB and also called a Swedish doc who confirmed it and also confirmed I am lucky to only have pain when I rest, since most have it way worse.
DDD seems to be something most of us get to some degree, but for me it sped up thanks to sedentary work and heavy lifting in combination...

Either way, it sounded on everything I read and listened to that I have no choice. Pain will get worse in a few years depending on my lifestyle and if I am unlucky the nerve will pinch.
The Swedish doc has had DDD and 2x hernias with horrible pain she said. For her the fuse worked wonders and she had also been informed of the risks on the other discs, but so far
so good. However, I am an active fellow and I bet I will sooner or later do motions with weight that my body may not agree with, so not sure what the best approach is.

Right now I will just work through it and hope for the best. I still want to reach my peak physique at least ones to feel the accomplishment, just hope body will hold for it
and I can look back and feel it was worth it.

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## almostgone

> Speaking of neck injuries, did yours get worse, better or stay the same over the whole covid timeline?
> 
> If you remember I injured mine Several years ago but it got better on its own, Then a little over 1year ago right after my 2nd full shoulder replacement on the left side April 2021 I was laying on my back trying to fix something under the dash of my car and my neck & upper back cramped BAD. It caused my neck to pop/crack (I use to crack it all the time to relieve pressure but stopped the habit several years ago) and pinched really bad. I actually stayed home from work for a couple days because I couldn't drive.
> 
> I had 2 x-rays done and both doctors/chiropractors said it looked like an old injury (it was) but my c6/c7 was pinched, bone on bone. I tried a LOT of ice and it helped. I tried chiropractic and it actually make it worse. Pain meds helped slightly and anti inflammatory a little also. Lots of massage therapy helped a little. I also used neck traction (helped the most) and a brace off and on.
> 
> Fast forward 1yr 2 months and its definitely still there but still SLOWLY getting better. I fell like it is slowly self fusing again like it did before but Im not loosing as much of my ROM as I did last time.
> 
> Hopefully your surgery fixes you 100%


I'm still struggling with the nerve damage done by my neck. They did C2-C7 laminectomies ( where they cut out the spiny part of your backbone out, also facetectomies at those levels, and foraminectomy. Then 2 titanium rods, a cross link and a lot of pedicle screws and mounting hardware. Fusion of C-3, C-4, C-5, and C-6.

The pain has greatly decreased, By late August/September, I threw my percs and methcarbolam into the apocalypse stash for the end of the world party (couldn't let those refills go to waste).

The strength improvements are few and far between, but I'll take it. I had pretty much lost use of the left arm....could barely curl 2 pounds, lol. Very humbling.

I have another NCV study coming up and my neuro is talking about getting Duke U involved. Said they have some radical but effective procedures they can try. Sounds right up my alley, lol.

I had my surgery 1 year and 4 days ago, but have been back at work since September. Just have to make adjustments how I handle things. My cervical collar is long gone. I detonated an old pound or W231 under it, set what was left on fire, and then shot it. 'Twas damn satisfying. 

I strongly suspect the root cause happened in my 20s on active duty, but the TMC sent me to the base hospital for imaging and treatment. Oh..... it's fine. Some fat ibuprofen and you'll be G2G.........a-holes.

Edit: I am cleared to squat again now, but the neuro asked that I really pad the bar with a towel and don't squat exclusively. No problem there; my 45° leg press is right next to the squat rack.

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## lovbyts

> I'm still struggling with the nerve damage done by my neck. They did C2-C7 laminectomies ( where they cut out the spiny part of your backbone out, also facetectomies at those levels, and foraminectomy. Then 2 titanium rods, a cross link and a lot of pedicle screws and mounting hardware. Fusion of C-3, C-4, C-5, and C-6.
> 
> The pain has greatly decreased, I threw my percs and methcarbolam into the apocalypse stash for the end of the world party.
> 
> The strength improvements are few and far between, but I'll take it. I had pretty much lost use of the left arm....could barely curl 2 pounds, lol. Very humbling.
> 
> I have another NCV study coming up and my neuro is talking about getting Duke U involved. Said they have some radical but effective procedures they can try. Sounds right up my alley, lol.
> 
> I had my surgery 1 year and 4 days ago, but have been back at work since September. Just have to make adjustments how I handle things. My cervical collar is long gone. I detonated an old pound or W231 under it, set what was left on fire, and then shot it. 'Twas damn satisfying. 
> ...


Its funny how C6/C7 effect the left arm so much. When my neck re tweaked a little over a year ago that is the first thing I noticed. My left arm would instantly go 100% numb from the shoulder down to my fingers and I couldn't hardly lift it.

Yeah again, I haven't heard many good things about getting it fused.

Best of luck at Duke U. Hate to be a guinea pig but at the same time it may help. Ive actually been a guinea pig several time with my eye surgeries.

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## almostgone

> Its funny how C6/C7 effect the left arm so much. When my neck re tweaked a little over a year ago that is the first thing I noticed. My left arm would instantly go 100% numb from the shoulder down to my fingers and I couldn't hardly lift it.
> 
> Yeah again, I haven't heard many good things about getting it fused.
> 
> Best of luck at Duke U. Hate to be a guinea pig but at the same time it may help. Ive actually been a guinea pig several time with my eye surgeries.


Yep, C-5 and C-6 seemed to be the information highway for the left arm in regards to anything in regards to curling motions, forearms, even my left grip is weaker ( some of that is probably carpal tunnel). Triceps pressdowns are coming back decently...so far.
They picked up on that during the nerve conduction studies. Putting that off for now until I build up medical leave time used last year. The the wife needs a hip replacement....... we're pretty decrepit at this point. The last day I worked my arm did the whole deal where it doesn't respond. First think I thought was "I'm having an f-in stroke". It's weird though, pre-surgery, I would get lots of tingling, pinprick sensations, and a feeling of water running down the arm. 

But yeah man, I'm hanging in there. At least the arm responds a little so we'll see. I'm throwing everything at it including 1.8-2.7 iu of Serostim 5 on/2 off.

So, in the meantime, keep grinding or lay down and give up, lol. For me, fusion has done me well. At least the incessant pain is very minimal and the curve formed by the titanium rods holds the bend in my neck so my spinal cord isn't compressed. I've lost a little range of motion side to side and looking upwards, but one the other hand, my neck doesn't pop at every move.

It sounds like you really dodged the bullet with your neck...which is awesome!

My recovery might have gone smoother if the whole country being shutdown hadn't happened.

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## lovbyts

> Yep, C-5 and C-6 seemed to be the information highway for the left arm in regards to anything in regards to curling motions, forearms, even my left grip is weaker ( some of that is probably carpal tunnel). Triceps pressdowns are coming back decently...so far.
> They picked up on that during the nerve conduction studies. Putting that off for now until I build up medical leave time used last year. The the wife needs a hip replacement....... we're pretty decrepit at this point. The last day I worked my arm did the whole deal where it doesn't respond. First think I thought was "I'm having an f-in stroke". It's weird though, pre-surgery, I would get lots of tingling, pinprick sensations, and a feeling of water running down the arm. 
> 
> But yeah man, I'm hanging in there. At least the arm responds a little so we'll see. I'm throwing everything at it including 1.8-2.7 iu of Serostim 5 on/2 off.
> 
> So, in the meantime, keep grinding or lay down and give up, lol. For me, fusion has done me well. At least the incessant pain is very minimal and the curve formed by the titanium rods holds the bend in my neck so my spinal cord isn't compressed. I've lost a little range of motion side to side and looking upwards, but one the other hand, my neck doesn't pop at every move.
> 
> It sounds like you really dodged the bullet with your neck...which is awesome!
> 
> My recovery might have gone smoother if the whole country being shutdown hadn't happened.


Luckily hip replacments not days are almost like changing tires and she should be 100% in a couple months.

Good that it helped you. Mine still pops quite a bit but it gets less month to month and feels a little each month but SLOWLY. Luckily I still have pain meds that make it manageable while it slowly heals or self fuses. Im still hopeful I wont need surgical intervention in the near future.

Now I just need the shoulders to finish healing so I can lift again. Im trying not to rush it this time.

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