# COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING - POWERLIFTING - ATHLETICS & SPORTS > COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING Q & A >  Opinions - offseason cardio/diet

## IBdmfkr

Been getting mixed opinions on this subject lately on various boards. But either way I'd like to put it out and get opinions/feedback on a few topics with detailed responses.

1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?

2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs) 

EX: Using a HITT training routine w/ progressive resistance.

Sun: OFF (high carb)
Mon: W-out (med)
Tues: OFF (high)
Wed: W-out (med)
Thurs: OFF (high)
Fri: W-out (med)
Sat: OFF (low carb)

What days, times of day etc would you suggest doing cardio and how frequent.. the goal/experiment is to maintain a low bodyfat percentage and optimize LBM growth during the off-season as to eliminate the bad-fats storing within the fat cells but rather replace them with better/cleaner fats in their place to make dieting easier and a more chiseled stage presence.

Sorry for the length but I'm trying to spark an interesting discussion that I can't quite find an answer too or much relevant information..

Discuss/Opinions welcomed.
Thanks for the time.

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## JohnboyF

I**... i was wondering could you post what you do or your response to the questions would be?

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## IBdmfkr

:Wink:  I'll get to that after I've received enough detailed responses.. I don't want to influence anyone's opinions or thoughts on the subject.

This is solely for educational purposes for myself and other members to see what everyone is doing and others opinions on the matter. Hoping to get some well-rounded and different responses.

No answer will be more right or wrong from another, this thread is to give various outlooks on different training/dietary approaches from different individuals.

Bino's response -



> I will tell you what I have been doing lately which I find works well. I rarely ever cycle carbs now, but I never have carbs in my last meal EVER, which I can tell is helping for sure. 
> 
> I eat fairly low GI carbs year round and keep to eating every 2-2.5hrs during the day (no shakes of course ). And yes B D I eat 1 cup vegtables almost every meal. I never have veggies with breakfast though, no particular reason. Sometimes its half cup veggies with meals, all depends what im eating, say with oats I dont have as much...
> 
> I do cardio about 3 times a week now, down from 5 because of school now and already waking up at 6:30am for class. I still do it am empty stomach because I really think it works best, if im bulking or whatever I still do it that way. I will also put on 5 mins on the bike pre-workout to get the blood pumping.
> 
> Anyways I was saying I eat low GI, BUT i eat a little high GI food preworkout to fill liver glycogen with my amino's. This helps keep a reserve for when you are training, energy goes up a bit as well for the workout. I suggest everyone try this out and see.
> 
> I think what it comes down to is what works for you like everything else. I mean I know some Pro's go and eat KFC and McDonalds off season and i mean they are pro's. So its hard to say. 
> ...

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## marcus300

I really do think forms of over eating in the off season are very beneficial, especially when you have just started a cycle and the main goal is new muscle tissue, why stimulate your body by intense training sessions and put in a building AAS stack to promote growth if you don't feed it?

There are many expressions like you cant mould a pot without clay! you cant start a fire without fuel! simply you cant build new muscle tissue without the nutrients so increasing the fuel to build them will give results,, growth in Humans is stimulated in shorts spurts so if the right environment is created by diet/training and AAS the whole result will be growth, the secret is creating that environment,

If extreme training is in your program and extreme stack/cycling then extreme food is also needed, i am not saying eat empty calories or unusable foods, clean overeating diet while in the off season is needed in my experiences,over eating /carb cycling would be ideal in many cases, nowadays alot of compounds are used to help with the added calories what might put on the bf, GH,clen ,IGF strict cardio,

With any off season diet one of the primary rules is controlling the bf without restricting growth, hit this correctly and you will all your goals answered, when the body is in a growth period over eating is a must and there on after controlling the diet to the body's needs is a mind field and goes far beyond training/diet/AAS, listening to your body and understanding it is vital and responding to how it reacts, which all comes down to experience and trying things for yourself to see if they work and not some study what says this happens,

Yes i do think cardio is important in the off season why challenge your health for a few added unwanted bodyweight lbs? cardio is very important in the whole process of building tissue, i find early morning is the only way to go and do what works for you policy is what is needed, i can tell you what works for me but you may be slightly different, do what works, try all forms of cardio and different times and judge and listen to your body how it responds,

dedication and motivation are 2 principles what need to be high, eat for growth and not for taste, feed the body and not the taste buds, introduce cardio and with the right added compounds the results should be new muscle tissue with minimal bf

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## IBdmfkr

Thanks for the great response Marcus.. Deff a different outlook on it, I agree with many of your ideas.

Btw, the new DY book comes out in the U.S. at the end of this month! Can't wait.

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## JohnboyF

Even though i don't have much experince competing. Wouldn't being lean in the off-season respectably lower the amount of work/cardio/diet required during a contest prep?

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## Undecided09

> Even though i don't have much experince competing. Wouldn't being lean in the off-season respectably lower the amount of work/cardio/diet required during a contest prep?


I would think so, but it would also lower the amount of mass you would have when you do shred off what you need because you didn't build as much as you could have when you were bulking, thats what I would think....I know this, "Bulk when your Bulking, and Cut when your cutting" one thing at a time...

~M.A.D.

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## MrMent1on

As for me, its not that serious. I eat whatever, I just make sure I get in enuogh protein. Other than that I dont count my carbs or fat off season. i believe I need a lot of carbs to get maximum growth.
As far as cardio. I dont do that either off season, I believe every cardio session burns some muscle, so I try to save as much as possible while off season. But everyone is different, I cant stress that enought. what works for me may not work for you, so you have to find what works for you and the only way your going to to that is by trying different things, more or less trial and error.

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## Undecided09

> As for me, its not that serious. I eat whatever, I just make sure I get in enuogh protein. Other than that I dont count my carbs or fat off season. i believe I need a lot of carbs to get maximum growth.
> As far as cardio. I dont do that either off season, I believe every cardio session burns some muscle, so I try to save as much as possible while off season. But everyone is different, I cant stress that enought. what works for me may not work for you, so you have to find what works for you and the only way your going to to that is by trying different things, more or less trial and error.



True that...I also think you need to assess how easily you both put on fat and take it off...Someone who puts it on easily and burns it off slowly, will probably need to be more conscientious of that in the offseason and be more precise about both carb/fat intake, as well as cardio sessions, in order to be able to have enough time to burn off that fat when contest prep comes around...However someone like MR M or myself who doesn't put on fat easily and can shed what fat there is quite efficiently and quickly, can afford to not worry as much about carb/fat intake or cardio sessions. This type of persons main focus would be more on keeping protein/cals high and focusing on putting on as much LBM as possible...That would be my best analysis of the situation....?

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

> As for me, its not that serious. I eat whatever, I just make sure I get in enuogh protein. Other than that I dont count my carbs or fat off season. i believe I need a lot of carbs to get maximum growth.
> As far as cardio. I dont do that either off season, I believe every cardio session burns some muscle, so I try to save as much as possible while off season. But everyone is different, I cant stress that enought. what works for me may not work for you, so you have to find what works for you and the only way your going to to that is by trying different things, more or less trial and error.


lol, yes but again your genetics are far superior than the average joe Ment.. You're like Dexter, stay lean as hell off of extremely high calories and no cardio up until the show.. few ppl are that lucky.

I consider myself to have a fast metabolism but if I eat just whatever I want on the offseason I don't feel my gains are maximized but rather need to take in quality foods to supply my muscles with what they need. I also follow a higher carb/lower protein approach whereas other's respond better off of the opposite.

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## doittoit

I**mfkr judging by your avy you have look to have aquired a fair amount of mass and you are prolly ecto/meso?, so u can prolly get away with zero cardio and a loose diet. Also are u running any anabolics or gh? I have found that when I'm on a high dose of test the only thing I worry about is getting in ENOUGH cals regardless of the source. I've also found that I have a set point Bf% that my body likes to stay at regardless of my daily trips to McD's. Just my 2 cents.

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## spound

> lol, yes but again your genetics are far superior than the average joe Ment.. You're like Dexter, stay lean as hell off of extremely high calories and no cardio up until the show.. few ppl are that lucky.
> 
> I consider myself to have a fast metabolism but if I eat just whatever I want on the offseason I don't feel my gains are maximized but rather need to take in quality foods to supply my muscles with what they need. I also follow a higher carb/lower protein approach whereas other's respond better off of the opposite.


I am the same way I**, I will give my full response alter this week, I have a test tomorrow that I SHOULD be studying for RIGHT NOW lol

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## IBdmfkr

Cool, awaiting your response Spound.

Doittoit - I have to say I don't agree with "a sat BF%".. that's not even feasible considering you watch your calorie intake and include cardio in your program. That's another topic on it's own, but I've like to see more responses to the original questions/topic from various members who might have experimented with different ideas.

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## MrMent1on

IB the more shows you do, the more you diet and the more muscle you add to your frame, the harder it becomes to put on fat. so doittoti is right about you being able to get away without cardio for now. you will notice that after your next competition it will be harder to get back up to the BF% you carried before. you will stay leaner and leaner with each show.

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## Undecided09

> IB the more shows you do, the more you diet and the more muscle you add to your frame, the harder it becomes to put on fat. so doittoti is right about you being able to get away without cardio for now. you will notice that after your next competition it will be harder to get back up to the BF% you carried before. you will stay leaner and leaner with each show.



On that note Mr M, I have a question then, don't mean to hijack B D, but it along the lines of your topic....So is the first two/three weeks after a contest really important to stay in the gym, bring up the cals really high, but very lean and quality, to lay some serious LBM right away??? 

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

Ment thanks for the tips/response, I deff see the difference from prior to the show and now although my diet is much more on track as well and my lifts are much more intense, so this might also be a factor.

Undecided: Yes, it's the rebound effect most competitors get after a show.. PM ment for more info..

Back on topic for more opinions!  :Wink: 

1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?

2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)

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## Columbus

Interested as well.......When you say you "just eat" what does that entail...obviously a solid, clean protein source but you dont worry about gi indexes when chosing carbs and fats? Will u utilize bars and shakes? Fast food such as quiznoos and subway? (Not macd, wendys...) Out to dinner...pizza...etc.

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## doittoit

I**mfkr how is your appetite? If u have a large appetite than I would suggest more clean foods to get above maintenance. For me foods like chicken breasts and oatmeal destroy my appetite and I find it hard to eat the cals needed, but my appetite sucks.
For the cardio I wouldn't personally do it. Some may suggest it enhances recovery, helps with appetite ect. Just not worth the risk. Also some say(dave palumbo) that the body wont resond as well to cardio when dieting if it is used in the offseason. So sit back, relax and let the good times roll!

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## C_Bino

Hey B D not to get off topic but I got a question for you. You said right now your protein isnt that high...around .75g/lb. That being true and the fact that you are still cycling carbs, on your low carb day, since your protein is still low are you hungry as hell or what, hwo do you deal with this?
I never like feeling hungry, and teh prob I have is that I eat every 2 hours, used to be every 3. Now my metabolism is speeding up to the point I get hungry every hour. Its not good.

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## Undecided09

On that note, B D, can you explain to be how you can bulk/grow with only .75 grams of protein per pound?? I know everyone is different, but I can't tell you the last time my protein wasnt atleast 1.5 grams per pound, even now as I'm cutting up for my show????? How can you grow like that???

~M.A.D.

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## spound

Caps below...




> Been getting mixed opinions on this subject lately on various boards. But either way I'd like to put it out and get opinions/feedback on a few topics with detailed responses.
> 
> 1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?
> 
> SIMPLY PUT...YES. I FEEL THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO EAT CLEAN AT A CALORIE SURPLUS TO MAXIMIZE MUSCLE GROWTH SIMPLY BECAUSE THIS ALLOWS YOU TO TAKE IN HIGHER CALORIES WHILE NOT PUTTING ON AS MUCH FAT, THEREFORE, THE CALORIES ARE MORE 'QUALITY' AND THEREFORE ARE USED FOR MORE BENEFICIAL PURPOSES THAN JUST PUTTING ON FAT (LIKE BUILDING MUSCLE) REMEMBER, THIS ALSO KEEPS THE BODY HEALTHIER AND A HEALTHY BODY, IS A MORE EFFICIENT BODY. I DO FEEL THAT FATS ARE NEEDED, BUT I DO NOT FEEL MUCH SATURATED FATS ARE NEEDED. I BELIEVE HIGH GI CARBS HAVE THEIR PLACE AS WELL, SUCH AS POST WORKOUT, AND ON HIGH CARB DAYS. I BELIEVE CARB CYCLING IS THE KEY TO STAYING LEAN WHILE EATING MASS QUANITITES DURING THE OFFSEASON...AT LEAST FOR ME. 
> 
> 2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs) 
> 
> YES, I FEEL CARDIO IS NECESSARY FOR MANY REASONS SUCH AS HEALTH, KEEPING FAT SOTRAGE TO A MINIMUM, AND RECOVERY. REMEMBER, THE POINT OF CARDIO IN THE OFFSEASON IS NOT TO TO BURN FAT, BUT RATHER TO PREVENT FAT STORAGE. THE CARDIO SHOULD BE VERY LOW INTENSITY SUCH AS 55-60% MHR 2-3 TIMES PER WEEK IN ORDER TO AID RECOVERY. 
> ...


ANOTHER POINT i WOULD LIKE TO MAKE: PEOPLE KEEP SAYING THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT WHEN IT COMES TO CARDIO, AND I BELIEVE THAT TO SOME DEGREE, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF IMPORTANCE THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT OUT. I BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE IS STAYING EXTREMLY LEAN IN THE OFFSEASON WITH NO CARDIO, THAT THEY SHOULD BE EATING MORE. BOTTOM LINE. WHY NOT JUST TAKE IN MORE CALS AND ADD IN SOME CARDIO? THEN YOU WOULD PROBABLY PUT ON MORE MASS. AND ALSO, THE GUYS WHO ET LIKE SHIT IN THE OFFSEASON SUCH AS PIZZA, BURGERS ETC AND STILL STAY LEAN, WELL, I DO NOT THINK THEY WOULD STAY THIS LEAN IF THEY WERE EATING ENOUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE. I SAY THIS B/C I HAVE AN EXTREMLY FAST METABOLISM ...I MEAN FAST!! B4 I STARTED bb'ING SERIOUSLY I USED TO EAT MCDONALDS TWICE EVERYDAY AND OTHER FOODS THAT WERE BAD SUCH AS PIZZA, ETC... I NEVER GOT FAT AT ALL EITHER. BUT NOW, IF I ADD IN SOME PIZZA, WHILE ALSO TAKING IN 6-7 OTHER QUALITY MEALS PER DAY, THE CALORIES JUST COMPOUND ON EACH OTHER, CAUSING INEVITABLE FAT STORAGE.

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## Undecided09

I think Mr M needs to specify what he means by "I eat whatever I want as long as my cals are high"....I say that because i means something different for everyone, I earlier stated as well that I eat "more loosely" than most while bulking....However, my definition of loosely and someone elses might be completely different...When i say loosley I mean I go three days solid, and on day 4 solid with a cheat, etc etc...or 4 days solid and two days of, still quality food, but not so much specific, meaning 6 meals specific fooods, etc...So even when I'm being "loose" its not on a daily basis, more on a "meal" basis every so often, its regularly unregular, if that makes sense????

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

> I**mfkr how is your appetite? If u have a large appetite than I would suggest more clean foods to get above maintenance. For me foods like chicken breasts and oatmeal destroy my appetite and I find it hard to eat the cals needed, but my appetite sucks.
> For the cardio I wouldn't personally do it. Some may suggest it enhances recovery, helps with appetite ect. Just not worth the risk. Also some say(dave palumbo) that the body wont resond as well to cardio when dieting if it is used in the offseason. So sit back, relax and let the good times roll!


Appetite is always good, I usually get approx 400-500calories/meal every 2hrs starting at 8am until usually 8-10pm. Meals never fill me up, yet I'm never hungry so it's just a constant flow of nutrients and reduces bloat in my a**ominal.





> Hey B D not to get off topic but I got a question for you. You said right now your protein isnt that high...around .75g/lb. That being true and the fact that you are still cycling carbs, on your low carb day, since your protein is still low are you hungry as hell or what, hwo do you deal with this?
> I never like feeling hungry, and teh prob I have is that I eat every 2 hours, used to be every 3. Now my metabolism is speeding up to the point I get hungry every hour. Its not good.


Sorry didn't really elaborate on that much Bino  :Smilie: 

On my high carb days (500-600carbs) that I do the day before training my protein and fat content is Way low. 

On my training days my carbs are around 400 and my protein bumps up to around 1g/lb LBM so you figure 175-200g protein (from meat sources, not including all my incomplete proteins equally normally another 50-75grams).

On Saturday I do one very low carb day just to throw things off, normally around 150-200carbs/day but my Protein and fats are jacked up to compensate although my calories are still significantly lower to make up for higher calories days during the week and/or cheats. So I go with around 1.5g/lb LBM and jump my fats to around 100g/day mostly from meat sources and *****s.

I just started this btw last week so I still don't have much feedback on it as of yet, but I'm staying very lean so far and Very FULL and vascular so something is going right. Lifts are insane and intensity is through the roof.





> On that note, B D, can you explain to be how you can bulk/grow with only .75 grams of protein per pound?? I know everyone is different, but I can't tell you the last time my protein wasnt atleast 1.5 grams per pound, even now as I'm cutting up for my show????? How can you grow like that???
> 
> ~M.A.D.


I grow off of my total calories consumed but mainly from the intensity that I lift and my time OFF from the gym resting. I do not over train, I work the muscle very intensely while in the gym for the short time I'm there and then get out and start recovering.. My body is fine with lower amounts of protein, who ever said so much protein is need anyhow? Everywhere I read that has any credibility says .8g/lb LBM for athletes. Supplement companies have you guys fooled.

Btw I've never had the opportunity to try the lower protein higher carb approach going into a show but I sure would love to try it next year when I compete again. I think it's the better way to go. Pinnacle is currently experimenting with this regimen and loving it so we'll see how he comes in.. Btw did I mention he is sitting under 3% bodyfat right now with 2wks to go at over 230lbs!!.. SICK!  :Smilie:

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## IBdmfkr

> Caps below...
> 
> 
> 
> ANOTHER POINT i WOULD LIKE TO MAKE: PEOPLE KEEP SAYING THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT WHEN IT COMES TO CARDIO, AND I BELIEVE THAT TO SOME DEGREE, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF IMPORTANCE THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT OUT. I BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE IS STAYING EXTREMLY LEAN IN THE OFFSEASON WITH NO CARDIO, THAT THEY SHOULD BE EATING MORE. BOTTOM LINE. WHY NOT JUST TAKE IN MORE CALS AND ADD IN SOME CARDIO? THEN YOU WOULD PROBABLY PUT ON MORE MASS. AND ALSO, THE GUYS WHO ET LIKE SHIT IN THE OFFSEASON SUCH AS PIZZA, BURGERS ETC AND STILL STAY LEAN, WELL, I DO NOT THINK THEY WOULD STAY THIS LEAN IF THEY WERE EATING ENOUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE. I SAY THIS B/C I HAVE AN EXTREMLY FAST METABOLISM ...I MEAN FAST!! B4 I STARTED bb'ING SERIOUSLY I USED TO EAT MCDONALDS TWICE EVERYDAY AND OTHER FOODS THAT WERE BAD SUCH AS PIZZA, ETC... I NEVER GOT FAT AT ALL EITHER. BUT NOW, IF I ADD IN SOME PIZZA, WHILE ALSO TAKING IN 6-7 OTHER QUALITY MEALS PER DAY, THE CALORIES JUST COMPOUND ON EACH OTHER, CAUSING INEVITABLE FAT STORAGE.


Very good points, agreed on almost everything.

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## spound

> Very good points, agreed on almost everything.


Could you tell me what you disagree on? I always like to see the other side of things  :Smilie:  I am open minded to all experiences.

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## IBdmfkr

My eyes disagreed with your use of CAPS  :LOL: 

Honestly other than that the only thing that sticks out is the PWO cardio which I have tried before and won't do again. I feel directly after a workout your glycogen is low and your body is in a catabolic state, nutrients should be taken immediately. But by doing so it eliminates that window to successfully do cardio, so AM cardio is what I recommend as well Pre-breakfast but BCAA's are taken Precardio if that makes sense.

Good post though Spound, saved me the trouble and we see eye to eye on many things. Btw how's the off-season going!? Updates? Shoot me a PM brother.

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## Undecided09

> I grow off of my total calories consumed but mainly from the intensity that I lift and my time OFF from the gym resting. I do not over train, I work the muscle very intensely while in the gym for the short time I'm there and then get out and start recovering.. My body is fine with lower amounts of protein, who ever said so much protein is need anyhow? Everywhere I read that has any credibility says .8g/lb LBM for athletes. Supplement companies have you guys fooled.


Well they must have done a good job then, because I know on a personal note, if I ever let myself have less than even 1 g per Lb a day I'd freak!!! lol....I guess maybe thats why you and I differ B D...You say you make sure your total cals are high, where as I concentrate mostly on where the cals are coming from, when I'm bulking I like to take in 300-350 g of p per day, and twice that in dry carbs, if that makes sense....I think I might need to do a better job of estimating my cals this offseason, I would have 3000-3500 cals in a day only counting protein, the dry carbs (starchy), and just estimating my fat!!! so thats not including my fibrous carbs, and only guesstimating my fat intake!....

~M.A.D.

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## doittoit

I**mfkr i am totally starting to sway towards the lesser amounts of protein during bulking and cutting. When I first started I was obsessed with chugging back whey isolate 5 times a day, i grew but i was also a newb so....My first/last comp i went very high protein(500g+) towards the end with 150g carb and I shriveled up.....Just started deiting today for 2nd comp, taking opposite approach, will keep u guys posted

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## Undecided09

> I**mfkr i am totally starting to sway towards the lesser amounts of protein during bulking and cutting. When I first started I was obsessed with chugging back whey isolate 5 times a day, i grew but i was also a newb so....My first/last comp i went very high protein(500g+) towards the end with 150g carb and I shriveled up.....Just started deiting today for 2nd comp, taking opposite approach, will keep u guys posted


You see thats where I differ though from most who do keep their protein high all the time...My protein comes almost all from from food!!! Shake is only post lift, and bedtime at the most, the rest is protein from food, its atleast a 4 to 2 ratio of protein from food to protein from shakes....So maybe that is the big difference maker, high protein from food opposed to just high protein anyway you can get it???

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

> I**mfkr i am totally starting to sway towards the lesser amounts of protein during bulking and cutting. When I first started I was obsessed with chugging back whey isolate 5 times a day, i grew but i was also a newb so....My first/last comp i went very high protein(500g+) towards the end with 150g carb and I shriveled up.....Just started deiting today for 2nd comp, taking opposite approach, will keep u guys posted


Deff interested bro, start a log if you have time, love to follow it. Keep it as detailed as possible.




> You see thats where I differ though from most who do keep their protein high all the time...My protein comes almost all from from food!!! Shake is only post lift, and bedtime at the most, the rest is protein from food, its at least a 4 to 2 ratio of protein from food to protein from shakes....So maybe that is the big difference maker, high protein from food opposed to just high protein anyway you can get it???
> 
> ~M.A.D.


What is your training experience Undecided, current weight? Number of years training? etc Have you ever tried this other approach to experiment or compare the two? Why is it you think you'd lose muscle off less than 1g/lb LBM when the average male in America take in probably less than .5g/lb LBM and they maintain their muscle just fine, why is an athlete different? Who told you and what studies show that it takes gobbs of protein to rebuild muscle tissue? Curious because I haven't yet come across any.

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## *Narkissos*

> Well they must have done a good job then, because *I know on a personal note, if I ever let myself have less than even 1 g per Lb a day I'd freak!!! lol*....I guess maybe thats why you and I differ B D...You say you make sure your total cals are high, where as I concentrate mostly on where the cals are coming from
> 
> ~M.A.D.


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   :Icon Rolleyes:  

Honestly i try to ignore your posts when i read threads.

Anyone reading would swear that you've been doing this (being 'bodybuilding') for more than a year. "i always do this.. i never do that... this 'works'.. this doesn't"

Anyway.. to B D's questions:




> *Been getting mixed opinions on this subject lately on various boards*. But either way I'd like to put it out and get opinions/feedback on a few topics with detailed responses.


On every board there is a 'board doctrine'.. thus the responses will differ (whether there is actual legitimacy to claims or not)... That being said.. i'll take a shot based on my personal experience.




> 1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth


Technically.. yes.
Long term? No

Bodybuilding is an extreme sport... that being said, dietary extremes are 'necessary' at specific times. To elaborate.. dietary/supplementary extremes support training extremes (training extremes.. which are inherent to the bodybuilding conondrum).

Personally i don't believe in the dogma which suggests that you must pound calories day in and day out to make gains.. I think that's a fallacy. Sure pounding works.. but for a time. If there's anything i learned from my former coach it's this: "_In bodybuilding EVERYTHING works.. but NOTHING works forever_"

The human body is a wonderful adaptogenic organism.. That being said, while overfeed will shock the system, after a while the body acclimates and adjusts metabolic and hormonal output to re-establish metabolic homeostatis. This is manifested in various ways.. but the bottomline is overfeed will cease to be effective. Personally i believe in cyclic overfeed.. coupled with cyclic underfeed.




> what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?


Depends on the timing of said foods. For me i find that higher GI foods at specific points increase my feelings of wellbeing..and make me feel stronger... same for higher sat fat containing foods... transiently i get stronger and bigger.. and feel more 'comfortable' mentally. Feeling confortable goes a longer way.. as, imo this can translate into reduced cortisol/norepinephrine output.. Even if it is placebo, if i 'feel better' i 'look better'.

Conversely, the ingestion of these foods at non-strategic times (pre-bed for example) has the inverse effect.

I think it's all about assessing yourself.. likes and dislikes etc. when customising your offseason. Personally there are certain foods i only consume pre contest. Offseason, if i don't feel like eating rice.. i won't. I don't force myself. Offseason for me is about meeting my requirements without inducing stress... as the precontest environment is detrimentally stressful in itself. I believe it cannot be 'healthy' to perpetuate stress year-round. If cardio is making me feel tired.. i drop it... Re-adding it when my body can cope. etc. 




> 2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)


Not exactly

As noted above.. it depends on external factors. Unless you're a pro, whose life revolves around training (i.e. external stressors are minimised), it would be unrealistic to state that cardio is a 'must'. I believe cardio; training; food intake; gear etc. must be cycled. The 'when' is established by being in tune to one's individual physiology: commonly called 'listening to your body' in bodybuilding circles. This ability is honed in years of competing. 

And to those that state that individuals who do no cardio but remain lean offseason simply aren't eating enough.. i say bullshit.

Earlier in my career, as a junior, i stayed lean offseason.. even with a carb intake of 1k gr... and that's no BS.

Specific metabolic conditions denote an athlete's ability to stay lean or get 'fat'... it's not a cut and dry case of calories in.. versus calories out.

Additionally, as Mr.M said.. the more your compete the harder it is to get 'fat' post-contest... at least with reference to re-gaining one's previous level of bodyfat percentage.

More to come...

----------


## *Narkissos*

> EX: Using a HITT training routine w/ progressive resistance.
> 
> Sun: OFF (high carb)
> *Mon: W-out (med)*
> Tues: OFF (high)
> *Wed: W-out (med)*
> Thurs: OFF (high)
> *Fri: W-out (med)*
> Sat: OFF (low carb)
> ...


Honestly?

Er.. Training in this manner obviously your goal is to emphasize recuperation correct?

I'd do my cardio on the w-out days.. 

pwo.. 30 minutes

or pre-breakfast 45 minutes (i prefer pwo personally) 




> Sorry for the length but I'm trying to spark an interesting discussion that I can't quite find an answer too or much relevant information..
> 
> Discuss/Opinions welcomed.
> Thanks for the time.


No prob

Bump!

Narkissos

----------


## IBdmfkr

Nice detailed response C.. That's what I was looking for, still awaiting a number of members to come comment on their experiences and theories on these things. 

Thanks for taking the time.

----------


## Undecided09

> Deff interested bro, start a log if you have time, love to follow it. Keep it as detailed as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> What is your training experience Undecided, current weight? Number of years training? etc Have you ever tried this other approach to experiment or compare the two? Why is it you think you'd lose muscle off less than 1g/lb LBM when the average male in America take in probably less than .5g/lb LBM and they maintain their muscle just fine, why is an athlete different? Who told you and what studies show that it takes gobbs of protein to rebuild muscle tissue? Curious because I haven't yet come across any.



Last time I checked my last post was a question.....

----------


## *Narkissos*

Edit: /rant removed

Bump!

Narkissos

----------


## IBdmfkr

Let's not trash this thread with worthless one-line responses please... 
I was asking what your stats were for a reason, because I am curious as to your experience and your progression. Nothing more. 

Back to the thread.

Nark, very much agreed bro I was in that same boat along with Everyone else at some point, but now I am slowly seeing through the uber high-protein smoke.

btw, just a side-note. I have been cycling carbs high/med and one day low for the past few weeks or so and have progressively made strength gains in the gym, BF hasn't budged but weight is very slowely/steadily going up. Intensity is better than ever in the gym and overall appearance is deffinently improved.
Nark, why did you remove your post? I thought it was very informative and this stuff needs to be said by someone although many will not agree.

----------


## Undecided09

> Honestly i try to ignore your posts when i read threads.
> 
> Anyone reading would swear that you've been doing this (being 'bodybuilding') for more than a year. "i always do this.. i never do that... this 'works'.. this doesn't"


I typically try to ignore the things you say in response to what I say Nark because its always negative and taken the wrong way...what is wrong with saying "I always, I never, this works for me"??? I mean I think I have a right to mention the things that I have had success with and pass the things I have found successful with to others to allow them to do with it what they please??? I'm not claiming to be right, or wrong, about anything, I'm merely saying "THIS IS WHAT I DO ", "THIS IS WHAT I DON"T DO", or "I HAVE HAD GOOD RESULTS WITH..." I don't see the harm in that?? It seems to me like you speak in terms of "right" and "wrong" on here too much, or atleast in response to things I say, when in reality I don't think training, dieting can even be spoken of in terms of right and wrong, because something that works for one person may not work for another, everyone is different. My point is I merely speak in terms of what I know, what I have accomplished, and how I did it...I'm offering what success I have had and how I accomplished those success for others to ponder over, thats all....SORRY ABOUT ALL THAT B D!! I didn't mean to be rude, this is your thread, lets get back to helping him out....

~M.A.D.

----------


## *Narkissos*

> Nark, why did you remove your post? I thought it was very informative and this stuff needs to be said by someone although many will not agree.


The way it was worded appeared akin to a borderline rant... not characteristic of my posting persona.

Will re-post when i can articulate my thoughts more smoothly lol (damned insomnia  :LOL:  )

Nark

----------


## IBdmfkr

C, I understand.. You're more a gentleman than myself  :Smilie: 

Btw, The point of this thread was to help all members out and get new ideas for this off-season.. quit shitting in the thread. 

Either add something worthwhile or go to the lounge. There is no need for back and forth bullshit, I just wanted different people's personal experiences and ideas for us to utilize to hopefully find new ways of training/dieting/etc..

Now can we get back to the thread?

----------


## Undecided09

yeah ofcourse B D, my apologies again, but I felt it was time for me to stop letting Nark put me down on this board, didn't mean for it to interupt the importance of this thread....I gave some of my experiences and my methods a few posts ago, ill answer any other questions as well to the best of my personal experience knowledge....

~M.A.D.

----------


## C_Bino

Nark jus delete all those posts imo. And this one.

----------


## *Narkissos*

> *I'm offering what success I have had and how I accomplished those success* for others to ponder over, thats all....SORRY ABOUT ALL THAT B D!! I didn't mean to be rude, this is your thread, lets get back to helping him out....
> 
> ~M.A.D.


Not discounting you but: You're a noob.. Your gains are what we refer to as 'noob gains'

You could over-train systematically (typically referred to as 'gungho training') and still gain... that is the point that you are missing.

What you have 'always' done bears little reference to what a long-term trainee (I B D in this instance) would need to do to improve his current lbm/fat ratio.

re: gungho training..and noob gains.

That aside..

B D.

the .75 gr/lb lbm + 'high-carb' approach.. is very effective.

As you noted.. carbs are protein sparing.

The outrageous protein intakes as dogmatised by the supplemented companies (and perpetuated by the message boards) are over-rated.

The 'if i don't eat 400 grams of protein i freak out' stuff i see on threads are plainly examples of brainwashing... and usually stated by sub 150 guys.

Protein intake.. like carb intake i believe should be cycled.. as acclimation comes quickly from eating the same way everyday.

Decreasing protein intake (invoking the 'starvation state'.. ) on the short term causes the body to stave/curtail catabolism temporarily.. Obviously prolonging the 'starvation state' would be counterproductive.. as like overfeeding, the body adapts. The adaptation in this instance is less than favourable.. as the body WILL reduce the metabolically active tissue to reduce overall energy demands.

However, the strategic use of underfeed (with regard to protein intake.. or total kcals.. tho the latter is a totally different discussion alltogether) followed by over feed will result in increased protein synthesis.

There's an interesting theory that i'm playing with.. i will put it into effect shortly.

I read a study that indicated that 14 days overfeed followed by 14 days submaintenance, resulted in a higher net muscle accrual over a month's period.. as compared to a constant state of overfeed

Using fictional numbers to illustrate my point:

constant overfeed resulted in 1 lb of muscle growth (+ 5 lbs fat)
Overfeed/underfeed resulted in 2 lbs muscle growth.. with bodyfat percentage remaining the same.

Constant overfeed resulted in metabolic adaptation.. thus muscle gain halted.. fat storage began.

With overfeed underfeed.. the user gained say 4 lbs during the over feed.. and lost 2 lbs of fat during the underfeed.. for a net accrual of 2 lbs of muscle.. with no bodyfat change

I'd fathom to guess (or hypothesize rather) that the overfeed/underfeed both are 'shocks' to the metabolic system.. both influencing the release of hormonal substrates

overfeed: increased test; insulin ; TSH etc
underfeed: increased gh; .. etc.

Narkissos

----------


## IBdmfkr

Very interesting.. PM me the studies or links and I'd like to talk more in detail with you when we have more time C.. I get where you're going with it, seems interesting.. you try it and let me know how it goes LMAO... I already went on a limb trying the higher carb approach so I'm not apt to make too many more drastic changes on my off-season as of yet  :Smilie:

----------


## Undecided09

> Not discounting you but: You're a noob.. Your gains are what we refer to as 'noob gains'
> 
> You could over-train systematically (typically referred to as 'gungho training') and still gain... that is the point that you are missing.
> 
> What you have 'always' done bears little reference to what a long-term trainee (I B D in this instance) would need to do to improve his current lbm/fat ratio.
> 
> re: gungho training..and noob gains.


I'd agree with that to some extent, more so on the level of noob gains in relation to room for improvement/growth opposed to overtraining...I don't overtrain, but I do concede that when new, you could go in there with relatively no idea of what you are doing, work hard, keep the cals high, and see some serious growth because of the amount of room for improvement, any kind of caloric increase coupled with hard training, despite how efficientt, will spark growth! I agree on that level for sure.. :Wink/Grin:  .So my experiences prolly won't help someone like B D, agree for sure, doesn't mean I won't offer my insight though! hahaha, obviously....

~M.A.D.

----------


## *Narkissos*

> Very interesting.. PM me the studies or links and I'd like to talk more in detail with you when we have more time C.. I get where you're going with it, seems interesting.. you try it and let me know how it goes LMAO... I already went on a limb trying the higher carb approach so I'm not apt to make too many more drastic changes on my off-season as of yet


I'd have to do some digging for those.. as it has been a while since i read it. I've rehashed said studies in my personal experiments.

Will let you know how it goes tho.. Will probably implement it around sept 30th (remind me).. that'd mark exactly 6 weeks after my last contest.  :Smilie: 

So far i'm back up to 200 lbs and gaining... don't wanna interrupt that flow as yet  :Smilie:  (if aint broke don't fix it  :LOL:  )

Bump for more input

Narkissos

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## IBdmfkr

I feel many people overtrain without even knowing it, equating to slower growth and development amongst other things.

People look at me and think I'm crazy when I tell them I train 3times/wk and on occasion twice/wk if I feel I need more time for recovery. Yet I grow and they stay the same month after month.. Must be frustrating for THEM  :LOL:

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## Undecided09

haha, I'll give you that one B D, I can't see you, but if I could, I would have the "your crazy" look on my face, hahaha...

~M.A.D.

----------


## *Narkissos*

> *I feel many people overtrain without even knowing it*, equating to slower growth and development amongst other things.


Ditto.. 

Additionally.. i feel most people make training/eating/supplementing too technical.. and they use too much gear to accomodate for dietary shortcomings (and overtraining)

Nark

----------


## spound

> My eyes disagreed with your use of CAPS 
> 
> Honestly other than that the only thing that sticks out is the PWO cardio which I have tried before and won't do again. I feel directly after a workout your glycogen is low and your body is in a catabolic state, nutrients should be taken immediately. But by doing so it eliminates that window to successfully do cardio, so AM cardio is what I recommend as well Pre-breakfast but BCAA's are taken Precardio if that makes sense.
> 
> Good post though Spound, saved me the trouble and we see eye to eye on many things. Btw how's the off-season going!? Updates? Shoot me a PM brother.


Ya know, I used to think a long the same lines as yourself about cardio and not doing it PWO due to catabolism, but I must say, my traininer has me doing it right now, and the results are speaking for themselves. THe gains are coming...slowly, but steadily. Strenght is increasing I am getting damn strong...for myself at least and I am staying lean with no increase in BF%. I feel that catbalosim is over rated in some areas such as You MUST eat first thing when you get up, or RIGHT after a workout. I think people overanalyze a lto of things and this is one of them, just the way nark commented on over complicated supplement protocols. The key with the cardio for me is keeping the intensity LOW (almost ridiculously low) like 120 BPM (heart rate). The main goal here that I use cardio in the offseason for is recovery...I really feel it helps. it even decreases DOMS for me. like you said glycogen is low after a workout as well, so this is more reason that it will help keep of fat...it will dip into fat stores instead of use glycogen..since your levels are low already. HTe intensity will be too low to induce catabolism. These are just my thoughts/reasoning/opinions..nothing more. 

Damn, I have been busy lately, so I havent been able to check up here regularly, but it seems you have sparked up quite an interesting debate/conversation I B D...props for that, this is how we all learn new things  :Smilie:  I will shoot you a PM here tonight or in the next day or so, I have been busy, but I look forward to talking with you directly since we havent really gotten the chance to lately and you have a lot of good info. that I always love to hear.

----------


## spound

> Ditto.. 
> 
> Additionally.. i feel most people make training/eating/supplementing too technical.. and they use too much gear to accomodate for dietary shortcomings (and overtraining)
> 
> Nark


I believe the same. Shit, when I use, I dont even use a gram of toal AAS per week. 500g test and 400g deca or EQ is prety much sufficient for jsut about anyone to grow. People always over complicate and overanalyze thigns to an almost rediculous point as well. I have been guilty of this myself in the past, but since i am not so much anymore, the gains have been coming a lot faster...especially when I got my diet in PERFECT order. 

I B D- I feel ya about guys thinking you are crazy for training 3 days a week. I do the same and have tons of guys with decent physiques and decent cuts in my gym who all train 5 days a week, with a milion sets and go figure, they are all right at the 200lb mark or under...and they are not short guys. THey have good beach physiques, but their training just does not allow the type of growth they are looking for and they jsut dont understand it. TO me its all about intensity and progression (makign sure you are steradily increasing poundages on all yoru lifts over time)...if you need rest...you need rest...shit I take a week off every 6 wks or so.

----------


## spound

> Not discounting you but: You're a noob.. Your gains are what we refer to as 'noob gains'
> 
> You could over-train systematically (typically referred to as 'gungho training') and still gain... that is the point that you are missing.
> 
> What you have 'always' done bears little reference to what a long-term trainee (I B D in this instance) would need to do to improve his current lbm/fat ratio.
> 
> re: gungho training..and noob gains.
> 
> That aside..
> ...


Nark- you have raised some very interesting points above that I believe fdeserve to be taken into great consideration. I will keep them in mind as I make changes. RIght now my protein is pretty high, but my gains are coming nicely and conditioning is holding well, so I am not willing to change anything at the moment. I believe lower protein can work as long as the other macros are set up correctly. I will say however that I know many guys who do high protien whos gains are ALWAYS progressing from year to year (10-20 lbs of stage weight every year) this is what I believe to be the important thing. 

Then again though, I when you talk abotu progressive underfeed and voer feed, I believe that is what contest prep (underfeed) and offseason (overfeed) are for. ALthoguh, I can see how it may be beneficial to cycle the tow trhought the year b/c we all know how great the gains come after a long period of underfeading (post contest) mayeb this hsould be incorporated during theyear? I know I plan to hit a 4-6 wk diet sometime in the early spring next year if my bodyfat gets above 12 %

----------


## IBdmfkr

Good discussion and points Spound.. I may go back to doing PWO cardio at a lower intensity (recumbant bike more than likely) to see how it does.. My workouts are so short now it frees up plenty of time for cardio if I chose to do so. Keep you posted on results.
So far with the diet change and training change my results are unbelievable.. 
Night and day difference from 6months ago.

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## Undecided09

I just can't get over this 3 days a week thing, I guess its a matter of understanding why and beating it into ur brain...I'm gonna consider that kind of a split when i'm done with my show in the 3 and a half weeks, Ill need some of your help though gentlemen....

~M.A.D.

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## CSAR

Great thread I**! Although I'm new to AR, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

Back when I was playing uni football, our strength/conditioning coach gave me a diet/training regimen for the offseason. At that time, he was collaborating with the coaches for the US speed skating team (with Dan Jansen & Bonnie Blair), as they were using the athlete's gym facility at the university. It was very similar to what you've posted, i.e., relatively low protein (less than 1g/lb bodyweight) and higher amounts of complex carbs. After a month of following their diet regimen and doing the required football team workouts, my strength/size really began to take off. I was benching 315 for 6 reps and squatting 455 for 10 at 6', 215 lbs, about 11% bf, all natty. The coaches made me switch from training with other DB's to training with the LB's and DL's.

I'm not sure when I jumped on the "more protein is better" bandwagon, but this thread has really opened my eyes. Thinking back to my playing days and the diet I followed vs. trying to eat around 300g protein/day now makes me wonder as to WTF I was thinking.

Anyhow, I also took your diet advice from a different thread and it's been working pretty damn good. Over two weeks, I gained a lb. of bodyweight (up to 193) and I used 120lb dumbells (6 reps) for my incline press vs. the usual 100-105lb dumbells. Mirror-wise, I'm looking fuller and have more energy, while bf% hasn't seem to have changed. So as to your first question, based on past experience and the benefit I gained from your advice, I think the higher carb intake promotes strength, energy, and muscle fullness...then again, wtf do I know?  :Wink/Grin:  

Diet-wise, you, C-Bino, Nark, Ment, et. al., know far more than I do, so I'll defer to their advice. I especially like Nark's over/under feeding post. Seems good to shock the system once in a while; however, there is a reason why the human body likes homeostasis and frequent shocks to the system aren't always a good thing. 

IMO cardio is important regardless. I agree with Nark in that it's gotta be mixed up and cycled around to keep the body guessing and especially to maintain a healthy cardiovascular system. Obviously, in the offseason one would tone it down a little vs. cardio for contest prep, but I think some cardio is better than no cardio, even in the offseason. It would be a dream to be like Ment and eat anything I wanted without the cardio. That'd be nice, but I'm an old white dude. As to your second question, IMO cardio is best on an empty stomach first thing in the morning as glycogen levels are low and the body taps into those fat reserves for energy. I think less volume/intensity during heavy-duty offseason training and vice versa during contest prep is pretty common.

Again though, I'm nowhere in your league (ditto for C-Bino, Nark, Ment, etc.) and I might be spouting noob info for all I know. Anyhow, this is a great thread with outstanding information. It's much appreciated on my end!!

----------


## IBdmfkr

Good to hear CSAR.. thanks for sharing about the coaches etc.. most of these ppl didn't get to their positions as coaches/trainers for big universities by not knowing their stuff.. You'll get mixed reviews from everyone but thats why threads like this are so good, get to debate/discuss topics which normally aren't brought up. 
Instead of seeing the same damn threads day after day we need to make it a point to have better discussion threads here on AR for people to actually learn, if you want to ask a elementary question then just run a search and you'll find 100's of the same question answered time and time again, threads like these (Jay's cardio thread, Bino gyno thread, Bobby(Pinnacle) educational thread etc) are what really open people's eyes to what's myth and fact, what works and what doesn't.

More input is appreciated, so lets keep it comin.

----------


## *Narkissos*

> Then again though, I when you talk abotu progressive underfeed and voer feed, I believe that is what contest prep (underfeed) and offseason (overfeed) are for. ALthoguh, I can see how it may be beneficial to cycle the tow trhought the year b/c *we all know how great the gains come after a long period of underfeading (post contest) mayeb this hsould be incorporated during theyear?* I know I plan to hit a 4-6 wk diet sometime in the early spring next year if my bodyfat gets above 12 %


Exactly  :Smilie:  

That's why i haven't started it as yet..Gonna let my rebound gains plateua first.  :Thumps Up:

----------


## Undecided09

> Exactly  
> 
> That's why i haven't started it as yet..Gonna let my rebound gains plateua first.



That actually makes alot of sense Nark, once your rebound gains stop, shock the system again, and on a more minature level, underfeed for a short period of time, creating some more rebound gains on a smaller scale...I like that idea actually....I'll prolly do the same once my show is over....I'm assuming that my first 2-3 weeks after the contest will be very important in getting back in the gym and bringing those cals up, but bringing em up with quality clean bulking foods so as to build back up with LBM opposed to anything and everything that will get absorbed????

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

How's this for a rebound lol
Contest weight, 178.5, 2wks out from show before water depletion etc 188.
2wks after show bloated etc 212, BF checked at 7-8%.
Recent, 4wks after show BF checked, 8-9%, weight 216 before bed. Still holding some water but very hard/vascular. Waist measurement is the same as 1yr ago when I was 195, arms/chest/forearms/delts/quads have all significantly improved. 2-3more weeks of (bulking) and then I'll bring calories down a bit and intregrate some cardio to take BF down a couple points and then hit it again.

----------


## spound

> How's this for a rebound lol
> Contest weight, 178.5, 2wks out from show before water depletion etc 188.
> 2wks after show bloated etc 212, BF checked at 7-8%.
> Recent, 4wks after show BF checked, 8-9%, weight 216 before bed. Still holding some water but very hard/vascular. Waist measurement is the same as 1yr ago when I was 195, arms/chest/forearms/delts/quads have all significantly improved. 2-3more weeks of (bulking) and then I'll bring calories down a bit and intregrate some cardio to take BF down a couple points and then hit it again.


Nice job bro!!! Sound slike you are gaining nicely. Yea, I weighed in on show day at 207 lbs (9/8/06) and am now sitting at 234 in the morning dry and 242 in the evening b4 bed. I still have veins in my arms and shoulders even when I lift. Abs are still showing completely, jsut blurred to some degree, and I still have decent seperation in my quads...I almost want to do another prep to see what I have gianed LOL  :LOL:

----------


## doittoit

wow this is an amazing thread. I just wanted to throw out 2 examples for discussion:

1.) Powerlifters- They tend to eat very high fat/carb with protein fairly low. Yes many of them are fat and prolly overeating but u can't deny the musclular gains they make, and that is without a bodybuilder style program. Dave Tate I think had an example on ******** of his diet and I think it was 190g of protein and like 10, 000 cals. Mostly pop tarts lol.

2.) Milos Sarcev- Competed a ridiculous amount of times as a pro, yet he still advanced his physique. He attributes much of his gains to the rebound effect after his shows. This is an example of the underfeeding/overfeeding approach. Maybe not the best example because he's not massive, but thats prolly a gentic thing.

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## Undecided09

In reference to the powerlifer example, I agree that certain lifts are more to one style, powerlift, as opposed to other styles, bbing, but at the same time, dont you have to attribute their diet to how they appear, much moreso than how they are lifting? I mean they both figure into the equation, but the diet much more so??? your guys thoughts on that???

~M.A.D.

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## doittoit

Undecided, what i'am saying is with a bodybuilding program with maybe alittle more isolation work/volume they could even make better gains. I am just reinforcing the argument that u don't need ridiculous amounts of protein to gain size/strength. Adjust the macros, maybe back of the training frequency, and things might improve. Everybody is different, it takes years to discover the tools needed to gain size and condition, and many just never get there! lol

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## Undecided09

I agree with all of that, I was JW....Heres my question though, why can't you go with alot of protein and alot of complex carbs as well???? Wouldn't that be the optimal way of bulking???

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

> Nice job bro!!! Sound slike you are gaining nicely. Yea, I weighed in on show day at 207 lbs (9/8/06) and am now sitting at 234 in the morning dry and 242 in the evening b4 bed. I still have veins in my arms and shoulders even when I lift. Abs are still showing completely, jsut blurred to some degree, and I still have decent seperation in my quads...I almost want to do another prep to see what I have gianed LOL


lol, yes it's very tempting.. I'm actually considering going at this pace for anther few months and then doing a small 6-8wk depletion and then hitting it hard again.. any ideas or opinions on this? 
ex: Bulk through January and then deplete until march and then start bulking again for end of 07 comp.

----------


## *Narkissos*

> lol, yes it's very tempting.. I'm actually considering going at this pace for anther few months and then doing a small 6-8wk depletion and then hitting it hard again.. any ideas or opinions on this? 
> ex: *Bulk through January and then deplete until march and then start bulking again for end of 07 comp*.


I was thinking about trying this as well.. lol.. how many things can i try? 

lmao

----------


## IBdmfkr

Lemme know and we can try two different approaches and compare results as we go.. Be interesting and motivating if we happen to be on the same time-line. 

Gear questions and opinions:
Who has tapered a dosage of test to come off cycle and how does it compare to just ending a higher dosage then immediately starting PCT. Never taped but it makes more sense to as your body would probably recover much easier and quicker. Test Prop in this situation.

----------


## spound

> Lemme know and we can try two different approaches and compare results as we go.. Be interesting and motivating if we happen to be on the same time-line. 
> 
> Gear questions and opinions:
> Who has tapered a dosage of test to come off cycle and how does it compare to just ending a higher dosage then immediately starting PCT. Never taped but it makes more sense to as your body would probably recover much easier and quicker. Test Prop in this situation.


I have...and I recommend it 100% My trainer got me to do this and it really helps IMO. In my opinion, the body is a sensitive thing and you have to be careful not to throw it off balance, therefore, I feel any drug should be tapered, even when starting, then tapered back down when coming off. Well....I don't think tapering AAS in the beginning is good b/c you obviously want to raise levels ASAP, but anything else...taper....that is why we taper calories as well and don't jsut drop your cals by 1500 at the BEGINNING of your prep....your body would compensate by lowering it's metabolic rate. Same with cardio...you will burn muscle if you all of a sudden throw in 2hrs of it per day...but toward the end of the prep you can build up to that level and actually it will be very productive. I believe tapering off is the way to go and I do not believe in the "normal" PCT protocol. I believe all you need is some nolva and aromasin or arimidex (maybe lead by some HCG .)...taper them both down when you come off...otherwise when you stop the nolva you will have estrogen rebound. The only reason peopel say tapring is useless is becuase it has been parroted on the boards for so long...nobody has actually done the research or experimentation to say otherwise.

I was going to mention this to you when I hit you back in your PM I B D, but figured I would post that here, eventhough I dont like to discuss gear a whole lot in the open. I will give you some more of my thoughts when I write you back.

----------


## spound

> lol, yes it's very tempting.. I'm actually considering going at this pace for anther few months and then doing a small 6-8wk depletion and then hitting it hard again.. any ideas or opinions on this? 
> ex: Bulk through January and then deplete until march and then start bulking again for end of 07 comp.


I hate the word depletion LOL, just say dieting  :Smilie:  BUt yes, I think this should work well...hell, I dont see any reason why you shouldnt try it out, or why it woudl hurt you.

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## IBdmfkr

> eventhough I dont like to discuss gear a whole lot in the open. I will give you some more of my thoughts when I write you back.


Thanks for comments, I also have swayed from anabolic talk/discussion as I don't think it's really all that important for growth and development.. It's merely a supplement in my eyes that should be used sparingly.

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## *Narkissos*

> Thanks for comments, *I also have swayed from anabolic talk/discussion* as I don't think it's really all that important for growth and development.. It's merely a supplement in my eyes that should be used sparingly.


Ditto

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## Undecided09

> Heres my question though, why can't you go with alot of protein and alot of complex carbs as well???? Wouldn't that be the optimal way of bulking??? regulated fat as well of course???
> 
> ~M.A.D.


Bump my question for your the answer to that line of thought???

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## doittoit

Undecided if u can handle that many cals than go for it. Its only gonna help the muscular gains. But this is usually what makes the sport so hard. Most people cannot balance their lives around eating large amounts of good cals for an extended period of time, an extended period being YEARS! Training is easy, it's all diet. If I could physically and mentally handle eating 500g of protein and a shit load of good carbs everyday that would be awesome, but I find it very hard. Not to say I don't try my hardest! But if u are feeling motivated than I say try it out, but don't blame me if u get fat though lol.

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## Undecided09

> Undecided if u can handle that many cals than go for it. Its only gonna help the muscular gains. But this is usually what makes the sport so hard. Most people cannot balance their lives around eating large amounts of good cals for an extended period of time, an extended period being YEARS! Training is easy, it's all diet. If I could physically and mentally handle eating 500g of protein and a shit load of good carbs everyday that would be awesome, but I find it very hard. Not to say I don't try my hardest! But if u are feeling motivated than I say try it out, but don't blame me if u get fat though lol.


haha, I literally cant get "fat" if I tried to, well thats prolly a lie, but you know what I mean....I think the idea is to just have a calorice/macro goal, and do your best to meet it, its not always going to happen, but the harder you try, the more you work to stay consistent with it or get close on the daily, the better the gains, coupled with a proper training regimen that is....My goal when bulking is typically, atleast 300 g of P, Double that in Complex Carbs, and about 90-100 g of fat....that usually is about 3500-4000 cals atleast, i believe...math is 300(4)+600(3.25)+90(9)=3960, that is the goal, sometimes its made, sometimes its not...but 3500 is minumum usually....

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

My macro percentages change daily to hopefully throw my body/metabolism off, I like to do High/med/low carb days even in the off season which seems to work well for growth and keeping BF at a minimum without the use of Cardio as of yet.

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## Undecided09

nice B D, ill have to consider that for my offseason, pics SUNDAY!!!! I know ur excited, three weeks out tomarrow!....

Do you think you could do a high carb/lower protein week? followed by a high protein high carb week? followed by a high protein low carb week? or couple of weeks then switch, or any combination?? would that be beneficial???

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

Possibly, you'd have to try it for a month or so I think to tell.

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## Undecided09

ok, well i think after this show will be a good time to experiment, soon we will start talking about what I should do in the first two to 3 weeks post contest, to maximize my gains from teh rebound effect

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## IBdmfkr

In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states 
"Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter

Very interesting theory.
Thoughts?

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## C_Bino

> In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states 
> "Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter
> 
> Very interesting theory.
> Thoughts?


Fantastic topic brother. I just had this debate with my training partner YESTERDAY if you will believe it. I truly believe strething should be part of ALL bodybuilding routines...BUT I only practice dynamic stretching throughout my workout and leave static holds to PWO which helps keep blood in the muscle and fully stretch it...static would be the same idea as stretching the muscle via massage so I DEFINITELY believe it is benficial PWO before you go home. But I would NEVER do it during...only dynamic like rotating my shoulder around and around etc. This does not put any actualy stress on the muscle fibres but does help loosen you up.

JMO of course, but its worked well thus far.

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## Undecided09

> In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states 
> "Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter
> 
> Very interesting theory.
> Thoughts?



I see what he is saying and I like where he is going with the idea that every ounce of energy used is potentially energy that could have been saved for rest, as well as any strain on the muscle is potentially counterproductive to recuperation and growth....However, and unless I'm reading this improperly, what if you didn't adequately stretch your muscles out and got hurt while attempting to "to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible"??? Causing injury, time off, and definately counterproductivity, not to mention minimal muscle growth in that same "short" period of time??? Also, some cardio and other activities like recreational sports help oxygenate the blood and thus better nutrient transport capabilities leading to maximization of muslce growth when attempting to "to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible"....Just questions about his theory? your guys thoughts on that????

~M.A.D.

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## marcus300

> In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states 
> "Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter
> 
> Very interesting theory.
> Thoughts?


Now we are getting interesting Mentzer is the man in bodybuilding in my eyes along side Dorian of course!

I am not to sure about the stretching part of that article, i am sure some forms of stretching are very beneficial to BB's, i am still out on this one i will have to read more on that subject before i could make any kind of judgment,

With aerobic exercise is a different matter i do have views and have played around with this in the past, the body adapts to exclusively to aerobic work by becoming efficient in time the body can perform the same level of exercise and burn fewer total calories,

Now the body adapts to weight training differently, the adaptation process is the addition of muscle mass and the greater amount of muscle mass one carries the greater amount of calories burned each day, so the best way of building muscle and burning fat is weight training,

With aerobic exercise it as no effect on building or holding muscle mass infact in many case of muscle tissue is burnt and as soon as muscle mass decreases the metabolic rate changes and slows down thus adapts, weight training alone is the most single thing what can be done to cut bf and speed up metabolic rate,

Ive known bb's who have got into comp state with very little or none aerobic exercise, they kept the metabolism from slowing to a crawl via a diet plan that provides extremely small deficits while eliminating insulin spikes as a result of refined carbs,simple carbs and a lack in fiber, just hard weight training and the right nutrition plan and a hard lean body can be achieved, 

With aerobic work more is not better the right amount for the individual is needed, Ive seen bb's use far to much aerobic work on restrictive diet plans and a backfire as occurred lowering hormones that support muscle growth which indirectly slowing the metabolism,

So in ways i can see were mentzer is coming from while building muscle recovery and the growth process is vital so conserve all forms of energy and use a diet plan to keep bf low, 

He states "to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes" i like the quote "muscle size in the shortest time possible" that is my whole idea with priming/short cycles and overeating the end result is Mentzer quote,

interesting I**, what are your views? do you think aerobic work is over done or not needed as much as we think?

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## IBdmfkr

Thanks for the responses, I'd like to see even more on this topic before we move too much forward as I have many other topics lined up for discussion, many of them you'll notice are based on Menzter's teachings as I am following his work pretty closely at this point  :Smilie: 

I'd have to say I am far too inexperienced to really have a view on this topic, but if I were to comment I'd say I have to agree with you Marcus about the body adapting to cardiovascular activity and slowed progression. I've seen numerous BB'ers stay lean in the offseason by simply keeping an extremely high-intensity routine and really just keeping their diet/calories in check and not letting it get out of hand.
This being said it brings me to another thing that boggles my mind. I notice many BB'ers or just guys who train eat a lot of refined sugars and junk in the off-season and really not getting too extremely overweight or putting on a ridiculous amount of BF. Now when I set these guys up on clean lean/bulk or cutting diets they respond almost Instantly! I'm talking you can really see their body change within 4-6wks, sometimes 2wks!!
Now on the other side of the coin, a bodybuilder like myself who never eats sugars and refined carbs, I stay leaner during the year ofcourse but at the same time when I make the same changes to my diet my body seems like it has almost adapted to the clean calories and low insulin release so it doesn't' put it in any shock thus responding much slower to the change. 
Not trying to take away from the Mentzer quote but I felt like this tied into what Marcus was saying and has been bugging me lately.

Btw, I haven't done a lick of cardio this offseason but really kept my diet clean and moderately high calories, rotating carbs and staying with a very intense 3day/wk HIT program which uses progressive overload, Rest-Pause, Static holds, and a bit of Max Contractions and I am staying much leaner than expected and seem to be getting denser by the week. My measurements alone made me measure twice a few days ago as I didn't think it was possible for a bodypart to grow that fast over a 2month period..  :Smilie:

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## svarturer

im buying mentzers books right now

i b post your HIT program  :Wink:

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## *Narkissos*

> This being said it brings me to another thing that boggles my mind. I notice many BB'ers or just guys who train eat a lot of refined sugars and junk in the off-season and really not getting too extremely overweight or putting on a ridiculous amount of BF. Now when I set these guys up on clean lean/bulk or cutting diets they respond almost Instantly! I'm talking you can really see their body change within 4-6wks, sometimes 2wks!!


And right there you've described me.

That's how i am offseason.. That's how i train. And like Marcus noted (re: aerobic adaptation..), while i advocate offseason cardio as a way to remain lean while adding quality muscle.. i don't 'believe' in it. I think a higher volume.. high frequency.. high intensity weight-training routine is all i need offseason to stay lean.. For that matter I did no cardio during the first 4 years of competing.. Pre contest i simply modified my food intake..incresed the intensity of my weight-training sessions.. and posed. No drugs.. no thermos..no cardio. Result? Shredded from head to toe.. minus the depleted/unhealthy look cardio can foster.





> Now on the other side of the coin, a bodybuilder like myself who never eats sugars and refined carbs, I stay leaner during the year ofcourse but at the same time when I make the same changes to my diet my body seems like it has almost adapted to the clean calories and low insulin release so it doesn't' put it in any shock thus responding much slower to the change.


Understandably so. The only guide my previous coach would give offseason was: "add some weight.. but always be able to see four abs"

That's it... Doing the same thing year round is a receipe for stagnation.

While i advise athletes to stay lean offseason etc.. it's never something i've consciously tried to do.

Actually i found it has been harder since i've actually 'tried' staying lean.. like now.

Before.. i ate what i'd like. My coach told me to stop seeing food as 'food'..and start relating to it as fuel for tomorrow's workout. Thus instead of denying that annoying cake craving... or substituting for a low-cal replacement (which does nothing for the actual craving).. i'd just eat it.. and i was mentally conditioned to work harder the next day: lift more; do more work in a shorter space of time (re: high intensity)




> Not trying to take away from the Mentzer quote but I felt like this tied into what Marcus was saying and has been bugging me lately.


Understood.




> Btw, I haven't done a lick of cardio this offseason


I haven't done any either techincally.

I think i'm going back to my high intensity high frequency training.. as i did prior to the boards.

Yes i've made gains dropping volume.. but sacrificed the mature look my muscles once held..and the hardness i attained more easily.

Nark

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## xpijeonx

> I was going to mention this to you when I hit you back in your PM I B D, but figured I would post that here, eventhough I dont like to discuss gear a whole lot in the open. I will give you some more of my thoughts when I write you back.






> Thanks for comments, I also have swayed from anabolic talk/discussion as I don't think it's really all that important for growth and development.. It's merely a supplement in my eyes that should be used sparingly.





> Ditto


I understand the choice and respect whatever decisions each of you make but as all of you are very knowledgeable individuals I personally would like to see opinions on this, potentially dispelling some of the possible hype and myths that get passed around. 

Im not saying that the other guys that post frequently in that area dont know what they are talking about, I just personally like to read/hear opinions and fact and love learning. It just seems that the learning curve with body building is coming very slow for me  :1laugh:  

Awesome thread though! I hope I didnt pull it too far off track becuase I definetely like learning new things that are eye openers.

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## IBdmfkr

What topic would you like to discuss.. I'm not getting what your quotes were pertaining to? If it's anabolics, they really aren't worth discussing as all the research you need is readily available in black + white. Now training and diet on the other hand are deffinently misinterpreted and seems false information is continuously parroted on the boards by members who mostly haven't ever tried any of the methods they speak of. This type of nonsense spreads and before you know it the new guys are reading posts about guys claiming this and giving information on topics they have no idea about. Once this happens these guys pass the information down to guys in the gym or other uneducated noobs and the cycle continues back to unnecessary supplement and drug use.. It's a shame.

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## *Narkissos*

^^^RE: above

Agreed

Narkissos

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## spound

> I understand the choice and respect whatever decisions each of you make but as all of you are very knowledgeable individuals I personally would like to see opinions on this, potentially dispelling some of the possible hype and myths that get passed around. 
> 
> Im not saying that the other guys that post frequently in that area dont know what they are talking about, I just personally like to read/hear opinions and fact and love learning. It just seems that the learning curve with body building is coming very slow for me  
> 
> Awesome thread though! I hope I didnt pull it too far off track becuase I definetely like learning new things that are eye openers.


I am not flaming you bro, but the simple fact that you posted this leads me to believe you are putting gear way too high on your BB'ing priority list like most everyone else does. It also makes me think you are not as knowledgeable as you should be about nutrition b4 starting gear. 
NOW...I could be wrong, but these are my assumptions.

I will give you a BRIEF explanation of my thoughts on AAS in BB'ing. Ok.....gear ain't SH1T unless you have your training and, more importantly, DIET in order. PERIOD. Sure, gear can take you FAR beyond what staying natural will get you to over time (physique wise), but if your diet is not in order, it will actually more than likely put you in a worse state that you were in as a natural. For example....you will gain weight which will more than likely be mostly water which can bring on a whole host of other problems like High blood pressure cholesterol etc..., when you come off, you will lose it all and probably even more than when you started b/c your diet wasn't in order in the first place to maintain, etc etc..... Basically...gear is not rocket science, nor is it as difficult or as important as 99% of the people make it out to be. The whole point is to elevate your hormone levels enough to put you in an anabolic state...therefore, speaking in terms of this....200mg of test will make you grow and probably grow well at first...given your diet is on track. If you know how to adjust your nutrition accordingly, you should be gaining pretty constantly over time (although it will slow to an extent, you will still be gaining) IMO all you need is some test and maybe a low dose of an anabolic such as deca or EQ. THAT"S IT!! You see these guys abusing like crazy thinking more is better blah blah blah, when in all actuality all you need is 400-600mg of test and 200-400mg of an anabolic like deca or EQ. I know many NATIONAL level bodybuilders whos cycles are just that in the offseason...nothing else. Given nutrition is good and CONSISTENT...you will grow. If you are not growing on this, then yoru diet/training is not in check, and even still if it is....just give up b/c if you arent growing off of this, then you will not grow anyways and you have no hope LOL. More is not necessarily better. THe only guys who may need a couple grams are the ones who have been juicing for a LONG time and whos physiques are at an EXTREMELY HIGH level already. Excessive doses may yield a LITTLE bit more gains, but not anything worth it considering you will be spending Wayyyy more money and taking A TON more chances with your health...for what?....an extra 3 lbs of muscle when you already gained 15 lbs already?? Ain't worth it.... If you are already taking 3 grams of gear now as a novice BB'er then what the hell are you supposed to take when you make it to the national level??

Pre-contest cycles get a little more in depth, but for the most part all you need in the offseason is test and an anabolic (test, deca, EQ), if not just test alone.... Pre-contest you may have slghtly higher mg's just to cover all your basis of hardening and vascularity etc.. nothing drastic (test, eq, winny, halo, masterone, tren are common drugs of choice.)

These are just my opinions...nothing more. But they come with EXPERIENCE. With myself and with others. Believe it or not...I took more a 2 yrs ago when I first started gearing than I do now and my gains now are 10 times better...simply because I know my shit when it comes to nutrition now...unlike b4 AND I AM STILL LEARNING!!!. To any of those out there who do not agree with me...this post was not meant to offend....

- spound

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## spound

> What topic would you like to discuss.. I'm not getting what your quotes were pertaining to? If it's anabolics, they really aren't worth discussing as all the research you need is readily available in black + white. Now training and diet on the other hand are deffinently misinterpreted and seems false information is continuously parroted on the boards by members who mostly haven't ever tried any of the methods they speak of. This type of nonsense spreads and before you know it the new guys are reading posts about guys claiming this and giving information on topics they have no idea about. *Once this happens these guys pass the information down to guys in the gym or other uneducated noobs and the cycle continues back to unnecessary supplement and drug use.. It's a shame*.


I agree 100%...it is quite sad actually. I fell victim to it at first as well as a few friends of mine...it sucks. Now I have a couple firends with low test levels in their early twenties who struggle with dismorphia and have trouble putting on ANY weight in the gym. I wish I would have known then what I knwo now (about nutrition)

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## IBdmfkr

Agreed, this last cycle I did provided more results than any previous cycle in the past and it was only two compounds at lower dosages as opposed to a past cycle where I used more than a few drugs at rediculous amounts. Live and learn I guess, many will read our responses and yet still make our same mistakes LOL.. Again many also just are born with shit genetics and BB'ing really isn't something they could be successful at with or without the drugs, that's something to keep in mind as well when you self-evaluate, be honest with yourself.

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## spound

> Agreed, this last cycle I did provided more results than any previous cycle in the past and it was only two compounds at lower dosages as opposed to a past cycle where I used more than a few drugs at rediculous amounts. Live and learn I guess, many will read our responses and yet still make our same mistakes LOL.. Again many also just are born with shit genetics and BB'ing really isn't something they could be successful at with or without the drugs, that's something to keep in mind as well when you self-evaluate, be honest with yourself.


Another great post that I agree 100% with bro. Well put, and good points...

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## xpijeonx

Sorry my quotes were only to catch readers up to my question that way if they jump aboard here they dont have to go all the way back through the whole thing if they dont want to. I guess sometimes I try too hard, hehe.

I havent done WAY too much gear(2 cycles of average amounts 1 test, 1 test/tren ). Its quite the opposite IMO. Thankfully I havent went and made things complicated. And I would attribute this to what I have read on here and even more so for the future on what I am reading now. I have been raised with more is better and its not really ever the case, haha.

I dont know what category I fall under but I am by no means a competetive bodybuilder. I love to work out and aspire to be a bit bigger and leaner. I also want to enjoy "life" all to often and break diets but oh well. live and learn. So anyway my diet is not in check and I will not do anymore cycles until it it is. I did make gains and kept most of them but I am convinced it could have been better.

Anyways, You answered my questions and I made myself look like an ass, hahaha. I dont really know what to say other than that. Thinking back on it I dont really know what exactly if anything I had in mind but I guess what I was looking for was answered and has been re-answered a thousand times before :Owned:  . AAS are to be used sparingly. And maybe this time it will stick, haha.

Thanks for takin the time guys.

Anyone else please ignore my dumb ass in this thread or delete my posts :1laugh:  cause they are not relavant and I dont want to ruin a good thread.

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## IBdmfkr

They are very relevant bro, and I'm sure many ppl have read this thread and wondered what our thoughts on that subject are and why.. Many ppl will still read it and not take it seriously, that's just the way ppl are. Again these are merely our ideas and theories just like others will have different ideas on the same topic.. I try and base my research and experiments off logical ideas and philosophies that provide results rather than just repeating general ideas I've read or heard without first trying to expose them as being false or find flaws.

You brought up good questions that IMO needed to be looked at and discussed.

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## xpijeonx

I think the main reason I asked here is it had the attention and participation of a few people(not that others arent) who seem to be quite knowledgable about bodybuilding as a whole and also do apply logic and "scientific method" to their thoughts, decisions and application. Or always voicing their thoughts and theories. Either way GOOD SH!T!!!

Keep up the good work fellas!  :Asskiss:

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## Columbus

> Another great post that I agree 100% with bro. Well put, and good points...


Brilliant post........I have been on 125mg of cyp every 3 days and 150mg of eq every 3 days....this has been for 5 weeks now. I am coming off a huge cut where I went from 200 to about 150 and 6%......So five weeks ago I was 150 and today I am 169. My abs and cuts are blurred, but at 4200 CLEAN CALS! it's expected.....strength is coming on strong........think Ill keep this approach for another 5 weeks then see where I stand!

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## IBdmfkr

4200 is a bit on the high side and is unnecessary for growth columbus.. you're going to end up putting back on a lot of the fat that you just worked so hard to take off.. I'd start at 3000calories and slowly work your way up over a few weeks time until you see your body start to retain fat. 

Many BB'ers feel the need to eat extremely high calories opposed to their light-weight and LBM.. I just don't feel it's necessary to grow. If your maintenance calorie intake per day is say 2700 then why the need for 1500calories over maintenance? You will without a doubt get fat as your body can't utilize all the extra calories. Yes you might gain 1-2lbs/wk but you can't honestly believe its all muscle.. Now if your calories fluctuate around 3000-3400 then you can imagine your weight will come on much slower but your bodyfat will obviously not climb as fast either yet your body is getting plenty of the nutrients it needs for optimal growth.
Comparison: 
You at 169lbs say approx 8%BF compared to a BBer that weighs 210lbs at 8% BF yet still grows off of 3400-3700 calories, how is it that the 167lb guy needs more calories to grow than someone that outweighs him by 40lbs of muscle.. Just doesn't add up.
If you continuously gain 1.25lbs of actual LBM per month on the scale you can imagine how frustrated a BBer of todays standards would be, they like to see a weekly fluctuation of the scale, but think 1.25lbs/month = 15lbs of Actual Muscle Per Year! That comes out to around 4.5ounces of muscle per Week! Think about quarter lb of raw steak on the table, now think about 15 - 1lb steaks.. That's a lot of gains over a years time.
Sorry for the length but the point of this is that muscle is gained extremely slowly over a course of time, ppl want to see the scale fluctuate 5lbs/month or more when they don't realize this is near impossible to do without gaining 80% of the weight in fat. Think about it next time you're going super high in calories and seeing the scale gradually change from week to week.

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## Columbus

I understand your thoughts bro........but I've been on this diet of 4200 clean cals for 5 weeks now. I've gained roughly 15lbs and can still see 2 abs in the am...I am getting stronger....you're forgetting I am coming from an almost anerexic state at 150 and 61 bro...I need to be 200+ EASILY....you with me? It's not fat if I keep it clean, train hard, and incorporate a little cardio (20 minute incline walk in the am)........better?

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## Hackamaniac

Bro you could of pm'd him your diet or something..

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## IBdmfkr

lol, this isn't a critique my diet thread.. please edit or erase and PM me if needed.. Trying to keep this thread informative to the general public not specific towards any one individual.

Thanks.

P.S. you're going to get fat from that diet, guaranteed.

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## spound

> I understand your thoughts bro........but I've been on this diet of 4200 clean cals for 5 weeks now. I've gained roughly 15lbs and can still see 2 abs in the am...I am getting stronger....you're forgetting I am coming from an almost anerexic state at 150 and 61 bro...I need to be 200+ EASILY....you with me? It's not fat if I keep it clean, train hard, and incorporate a little cardio (20 minute incline walk in the am)........better?


Uhhh yes...IT IS FAT if you started out at 6% BF, but now you can only see the upper two abs!! LOL You don't need that many cals...shit I am close to 240 and am growing on 3800-4400 cals (depending on the day). And I am doing cardio 3 days per week for 30 minutes too. Hey man, do what you wanna do, but don't say we didn't say "I told ya so"

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## *Narkissos*

Ditto... I'm about 205 (5'6").. and am no where near 3000 kcals (not yet at least) and growing...shit i'm getting thicker nearly by the day

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## doittoit

I**mfkr cals can be for sure over done. But i like the peace of mind from eating as big as possible. I also believe that everybody has a rate for muscular growth. Lets say 1lb lean weight a month for example. So even if excess cals are taken in, more/different drugs used, its still hard to get the body to grow faster than your gentics allow. I have to contantly tell myself to slow down and think long term. 1lb a month for 4 years is 50lbs! That is like a novice to a pro! It's being consistant dayin day out, for many years.

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## Columbus

> Uhhh yes...IT IS FAT if you started out at 6% BF, but now you can only see the upper two abs!! LOL You don't need that many cals...shit I am close to 240 and am growing on 3800-4400 cals (depending on the day). And I am doing cardio 3 days per week for 30 minutes too. Hey man, do what you wanna do, but don't say we didn't say "I told ya so"


thIS IS A GREAT THREAD AND LET'S keep it that way...final note, cal of my cals is right about 3,900.....I am on the higher end of HRT at 250mg /' week cyp, I train HIIT 5x a week.....my cals are clean, and I have some water retention.....to bulk, one must gain a little blur in definition....no question about it. I was at 220 in college and dwindled down extremely wrong losing a lot of muscle on the way....I am not afraid to admit that. But right now my goals are to be healthy and strong...in order to get back to the 200+ range, I will HAVE to gain some fat. My pants i.e. waste have not gotten much bigger...I have a tighter 6 pack in the morning than 90% of the world.....Abs are overated and come and go. IMHO it's much easier to cut and get diced than it is to bulk up. 1-2lbs a week is my goal bro, thanks for the encouragement. Back to the thread...

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## *Narkissos*

> That is like a novice to a pro! It's *being consistant dayin day out, for many years.*


That's what many fail to realise

In this "I want it all now" culture.. they forget that bodybuilding is a long-term commitment. They want to eat it all now.. and shoot it all now.. and bitch about getting too fat.. or losing a bunch of gains post-cycle mainly attributed to their unneccesary extremes (Yes there are unnecessary extremes..even in this extreme sport we call bodybuilding)

Whereas in other sports, athletes peak in the early 20s and crash at 30..bodybuilders start to come into their own in the mid 30s and onwards. A more mature muscularity taking presidence.. .and kicking the ass of the young puffy musculature.

Moral of the rant? Do enough.. not more... as more doesn't equate to better. 

Narkissos

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## IBdmfkr

> I understand your thoughts bro........but I've been on this diet of 4200 clean cals for 5 weeks now. I've gained roughly 15lbs and can still see 2 abs in the am...I am getting stronger....you're forgetting I am coming from an almost anerexic state at 150 and 61 bro...I need to be 200+ EASILY....you with me? It's not fat if I keep it clean, train hard, and incorporate a little cardio (20 minute incline walk in the am)........better?


 :Smilie:  I respectfully disagree with this whole statement.

15lbs in 5wks just isn't physically possible for the average person to put on muscle. You may "need" to be 200 and that's fine, but needing to be a weight and actually being that weight at a respectful BF % are two totally different things, many people lack patience which makes their goal near impossible to reach because they can't simply set long-term goals and realize that a great body takes years of commitment. Again back to what I was saying about 15lbs gained per year, not in one month.

This thread's intention isn't to debate obvious topics so lets get it back on track, I'd like to see more points and ideas brought up for discussion as I like to see other people's perspectives and theories on achieving a better physique.




> I**mfkr cals can be for sure over done. But i like the peace of mind from eating as big as possible. I also believe that everybody has a rate for muscular growth. *Lets say 1lb lean weight a month for example. So even if excess cals are taken in, more/different drugs used, its still hard to get the body to grow faster than your gentics allow*. I have to contantly tell myself to slow down and think long term. *1lb a month for 4 years is 50lbs*! That is like a novice to a pro!* It's being consistant dayin day out, for many years*.


Agreed on many points. I've averaged 8-12lbs for the last 7years.. that took me from 130lbs to 215 where I sit now. That's over 75lbs of actual muscle. Time is the key factor and educating yourself while you're still young and new to the sport..

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## doittoit

Nark thats insane, so low in the cals lol. Dont want to get off topic but could u just list a typical day of what that 3000cls is coming from? Maybe a pm?

BTW I am currently underfeeding/deiting and have been hardly taking in 2000 cals the last week. I have been sick and have had to force myself to eat even that. 3 weeks ago I was eating 5000+ and not gaining (which pisses me OFF)which i had been doing for 3+ months and hardly gained anything but fat. I was highly concerned that i was gonna drop major mass but I forced myself to train EOD and I have maintained my strength, maybe even stronger. BF slight decrease as well. I am also currently unemployed which has saved me because it keeps my cal expenditure very low. I will be very inteested to see the results once I introduce more cals/carbs.

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## *Narkissos*

> This thread's intention isn't to debate obvious topics so lets get it back on track, *I'd like to see more points and ideas brought up for discussion as I like to see other people's perspectives and theories on achieving a better physique.*


I have a couple.. but might i suggest a name change for the thread? As we've exceeded the initial boundaries of the discussion (which was limited solely to offseason diet and cardio)

-----------------
High frequency training.. who believes in it?

Who doesn't?

Why..or why not?

Nark

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## IBdmfkr

When calories are a problem to consume try taking in foods extremely dense in calories, EX: fats are a great source of calories, try taking in Flax oil, olive oil, nuts.. Carb sources easy to eat and dense in calories are fruits. I wouldn't recommend doing this for a long period of time but it beats going deficient and your body turning catabolic to find sources of energy.




> I have a couple.. but might i suggest a name change for the thread? As we've exceeded the initial boundaries of the discussion (which was limited solely to offseason diet and cardio)
> 
> -----------------
> High frequency training.. who believes in it?
> 
> Who doesn't?
> 
> Why..or why not?
> 
> Nark


Yea, I agree.. that'd be a great topic as this one has deff overflowed past what it was originally intended for  :Smilie: 




> thIS IS A GREAT THREAD AND LET'S keep it that way...final note, cal of my cals is right about 3,900.....I am on the higher end of HRT at 250mg /' week cyp, I train HIIT 5x a week.....my cals are clean, and I have some water retention.....to bulk, one must gain a little blur in definition....no question about it. I was at 220 in college and dwindled down extremely wrong losing a lot of muscle on the way....I am not afraid to admit that. But right now my goals are to be healthy and strong...in order to get back to the 200+ range, I will HAVE to gain some fat. My pants i.e. waste have not gotten much bigger...I have a tighter 6 pack in the morning than 90% of the world.....Abs are overated and come and go. IMHO it's much easier to cut and get diced than it is to bulk up. 1-2lbs a week is my goal bro, thanks for the encouragement. Back to the thread...


To touch on a couple points here:
First HIT training isn't effective if being done as frequently as 5times/wk.. The whole point of it is to Raise the Intensity while Lowering the Frequency.
Second, at 1-2lbs/wk you should be a monster in 6months brother.. I wish it was that easy. You may be ready for the next Olympia at that rate.

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## doittoit

I still wanna talk diet damnitt lol......no but seriously i find it extremely intersting on how to manipulate cals so u don't have to contantly stuff yourself. 

About High FRequency training i will be trying this for the first time in prolly a few weeks to bring up legs. two leg days a week, one high volume day, one low, than alternate with just one leg day the next week. Hope it helps me , i need it!

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## *Narkissos*

> Nark thats insane, so low in the cals lol. Dont want to get off topic but could u just list a typical day of what that 3000cls is coming from? Maybe a pm?


2400 kcals

270 gr carbs
210 gr pro
<>55 gr fat

Maintenance..(yes i'm gaining on 'maintenance'.. as it 'maintenance' as based on my current bodyweight..as opposed to my LBM)

When i restart kcal cycling it'll be:

3000 kcals (600 kcals factored in for 60 minutes anaerobic training).. on training days.. with the above 2400 kcals on non-trainng days

3000 kcals split as:

appr. 335 gr carbs 
appr. 265 gr pro
appr. <> 70 gr fat

If aerobic exercise is included (which i doubt it will be.. as i plan on returning to high frequency training from monday).. it will be:

3300 kcals on training days (2400 on non-training days).. split as:

appr. 370 gr carbs
appr. 290 gr pro
appr. 75 gr fat

Narkissos

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## IBdmfkr

Good approach, I still seem to lean towards cycling carbs a bit even on the off season as it seems I can take in more calories consistantly and they're better utilized by my body. We are about the same weight and I've been gaining consistantly and putting on minimal BF off of 3200-3600calories/day.

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## *Narkissos*

> Good approach, *I still seem to lean towards cycling carbs a bit even on the off season as it seems I can take in more calories consistantly and they're better utilized by my body.* We are about the same weight and I've been gaining consistantly and putting on minimal BF off of 3200-3600calories/day.


I prefer to cycle over-all calories

Technically i'm cycling carbs.. but not to the extremes that other go

Since i train 2 on.. 1 off.. 2 off

That's a 2 high; 1 'low'; 2 high; 2 'low' approach

I'm thinking about throwing in a submaintenance level calorie day on the 7th day: changing it to: 2 high; 1 med; 1 high; 1 med; 1 low

Don't think that'd be advisable with the high frequency training.. training everything twice per week

I find that the food intake on an off-day prior to a high intensity day is important. If i go 'low' it affects my energy levels. 

That's why even while dieting i don't carb cycle.. I prefer constant energy levels. Personally, this goes against the grain.. but i don't think carb cycling is an 'essential'... furthermore.. it's applicability depends on the 'type' of training approach you take. I think High frequency requires a high/constant caloric/nutrient intake to maintain its effectiveness.

Barring this.. it'll be too taxing on the body's recuperative abilities

Narkissos

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## Columbus

Just a side note bro, I'm 6'2! That plays a huge role and I feel more of a role than weight.......I have a ton to fill out....I was lean at 240-250, but not shredded. There is a big difference. 3500-4000 is not as obscene as you make it. Sure I won't be 6% but staying under 10 with some definition and a six pack is obtainable......keep in mind the first 10-20lbs I gain from 150lbs are lbs my body needs to SURVIVE....do some research on starvation and anerexia nervousa...might do you some good.

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## IBdmfkr

Much of it was water filling up your glycogen stores.. Since none of my clients are anerexic nor do they starve themselves I don't feel the need to research such mental disorders, I'm not a shrink; I'm a trainer/nutrionist. Furthermore I wouldn't take on such a client knowing they have such mental issues as I wouldn't want to deal with someone so phycologically unstable, I'd refer them to a doctor specializing in that field. Anerexia is a disease and has nothing to do with healthy eating and optimum muscle growth, so you can leave that out of this debate.
3500-4000 calories isn't an unbelievable amount no, I didn't say that.. I simply said it isn't "needed" for optimum growth, also I didn't expect you to agree with me brother obviously since you were 250 ripped you should know how to get back there, I wish you luck.

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## doittoit

hmmmmm, interesting Nark....but what do u do if u are hungry? eat over your alloted amounts? Also what made u decide to do this way of diet? U said u used to eat large kcals and not gain bf much, do u think your metabolism has slowed? Also your fats are pretty low, I'm surprised that u can gain stregth/stay full on this diet, but if it works thats all that matters!

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## Columbus

no...I said 250 and lean NOT RIPPED.....let's end it, no use in arguing what works for you isn't going to work for many others.....I train with guys, naturally, who are eating 5000+ and staying below 10%....our definition of fat is blurred.........strength is just as important, and this is the offseason for a reason. We can talk cutting in April......btw - no flame, but I have better definition that you 2nd pic in that chest routine log from awhile back.......so, it's def. not fat as obese...

Yes, you are exactly rtight with your anerexic comment and I feel sorry for you to have such a harsh opionion on a disease that effects 20% of bodybuilders and 80% have a eating disorder of some nature. We are all victims of this love....luckily I am beating it without help and without becoming one of the 20% that die annually from it. Let's support each other. BTW - don't talk out of both sides of your mouth. You critqued my diet and stats as GOOD! on the diet forum, now inthis different arena, you got other stuff to say........4,000 cals for now, if I can get to 200 with 10lbs of baggage, ill live!

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## IBdmfkr

If I came off harshly about your eating disorder that wasn't my intent.. I was simply trying to make a point that an excessive amount of calories isn't needed to grow.. I did and do like your diet as it's all clean foods and in good portions, doesn't mean I said I'd follow the same diet.. like you said to each their own.. You on one hand have a set weight in your mind that you want to achieve as quickly as possible where I have a set phyique/look in my mind that I'm after.. just different goals brother, no hard feelings I respect your opinions and knowledge.
Btw, yes my chest even under 10% doesn't stay striated but my legs on the other hand stay extremely lean.. genetics are a bitch but appreciate the comments.

Nark.. I know we both agree that carb cycling isn't necessary but tell me, do you have carbs with each and every meal all the way up until bedtime and do you feel it affects fatloss/gain in anyway? Or to you is it all about your total caloric intake for the day and macro timing doesn't make too much of a difference as long as your meals are balanced?

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## JohnboyF

> If I came off harshly about your eating disorder that wasn't my intent.. I was simply trying to make a point that an excessive amount of calories isn't needed to grow.. I did and do like your diet as it's all clean foods and in good portions, doesn't mean I said I'd follow the same diet.. like you said to each their own.. You on one hand have a set weight in your mind that you want to achieve as quickly as possible where I have a set phyique/look in my mind that I'm after.. just different goals brother, no hard feelings I respect your opinions and knowledge.
> Btw, yes my chest even under 10% doesn't stay striated but my legs on the other hand stay extremely lean.. genetics are a bitch but appreciate the comments.
> 
> Nark.. I know we both agree that carb cycling isn't necessary but tell me, do [b]you have carbs with each and every meal all the way up until bedtime and do you feel it affects fatloss/gain in anyway? *Or to you is it all about your total caloric intake for the day and macro timing doesn't make too much of a difference as long as your meals are balanced?*


I know it's not adressed to me but i will add my .2. I was intially concerned with eliminating carbs later at night. But after reading and expermenting i realized that the thermogenics affects continue after cardio etc. So if you train at 8pm. You do need carbs. It does come down Cals in/Cals out in both cases (bulk or cut)

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## *Narkissos*

> hmmmmm, interesting Nark....but what do u do if u are hungry?


Doesn't usually happen.. I spread my kcals and macros more or less equally over the course of the day. I eat nearly the same time.. spaced equally at every sitting ..everday...more or less




> eat over your alloted amounts?


Not a problem. Food is not the enemy. If i 'over-eat'.. i am mentally conditioned to see my food intake today as fuel for tomorrow's session. The following day i just train harder.. if such is possible. One day of over-eating cannot do detriment to one's physique.




> Also what made u decide to do this way of diet?


It's the way i did it before i came to the boards... When i came to the boards i was surprised that people felt the need to eat so much.. yet achieved so little (no offense) comparably. I've since concluded that most on the message boards know absolutely nothing.. rather just regurgitate what they've heard. Furthermore.. most will not come near to their goals in this life time.. because of the above mentioned condition... again. .no offense intended.




> U said u used to eat large kcals and not gain bf much do u think your metabolism has slowed?


You misread/misunderstood. I consumed Large carb amounts.. lower overall protein.. Not large kcals. It balances out overall. My pro intake used to be around .75/gr per lb bodyweight/lbm (depending on the phase i was in bodyweight or lbm would be the determinant).

And yes.. my metabolism was faster at this point. Obviously it must've been for me to be able to handle that large a carb load without gaining fat. So yes i believe it's slowed.. maybe due to environmental factors.. or simply the process of passing the adolescent stage. I think actually i may have sabotaged it when i came to the boards and tried my first low carb contest prep. My coach suggested as much. While i still have a high carb load tolerance.. it has never been the same.




> Also your fats are pretty low, I'm surprised that u can gain stregth/stay full on this diet, but if it works thats all that matters!


I think people consume too much food period.. My fats are allotted at 20% of my daily kcals..which i personally think is more than adequate to sustain an optimum hormonal environment. When i bump it higher i don't 'feel' better. Remember... carbs and fat are not directly anabolic .. They play a support role in creating/maintaining/promoting and anabolic environment.. thus there must be a balance between macros.. Not too high of one.. sacrificing the other. I think that is the biggest bane to the planning of a comprehensive diet plan..that's why most people fail. (again no offense..just an observation)

I use: 45/35/20 [*carb/pro/fat*] as my caloric allotment ratio

Narkissos

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## *Narkissos*

> Nark.. I know we both agree that carb cycling isn't necessary but tell me, do you have carbs with each and every meal all the way up until bedtime and do you feel it affects fatloss/gain in anyway?


Honestly.. before the boards (when i had a coach).. he'd have me consume carbs in every meal.. up to bed time. In fact the bed time meal with a complex carb only meal. It was a 'primer'.. as we trained first thing inthe a.m. on an empty stomach. It worked surprisingly well.I was always lean.. and i was strong in the morning.. It supported trainng well. I'd jsut wake up.. no stimulants no nothing.. and go straight to the gym where we'd train high volume and high frequency (*monday:* legs; chest; triceps; *tuesday:* shoulder back biceps; *wednesday:* rest; *Thursday:* chest legs; triceps; *Friday:* shoulders; back; biceps.. *sat and sunday* rest)

He called it eating to support the morning session.

Ok i realise that is not what you asked so i'll refer back to your question...personally i spread my carb/pro/carb intake equally tru out the day. Pre-bed intake may depend on whether i train at night or at another time. Effect on bodyfat? no increase. The only time i cut carbs out of the last meal is if i'm cutting.. and even that's no surety.. I go by how i look and feel.




> Or to you is it all about your total caloric intake for the day and macro timing doesn't make too much of a difference as long as your meals are balanced?


You'd recall when i consulted at the beginning of your prep.. i believe in 24-hour nurtrition. The closest i come to practising macro timing.. is sub-macro timing: the strategic consumption of individual substrates at specific times

BCAAs/aminos pre-training.. between meals etc.
Chromium picolinate/b-complex vits. with carb meals etc.

Nark

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## doittoit

> I've since concluded that most on the message boards know absolutely nothing.. rather just regurgitate what they've heard. Furthermore.. most will not come near to their goals in this life time


This is what I feel as well. I am far from an expert, but I take in all valid opinions/theories along with my own personal trials and errors to figure out what works FOR ME. I just sometimes get caught up in all pros eat 6000-8000 cals thats what makes them good ect. Than I read that Nasser eat like 100g of protein daily totaling like 3500cals and I get so confused.  :Icon Pissedoff:

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## IBdmfkr

Many of these Pros are sponsored and paid to endorse articles that they have nothing to do with other than have their picture next to a supplement or a training routine that they've never touched nor would ever touch lol..
All bout money my friend.

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## doittoit

Ya I realize that totally, I'm not that stupid lol. But when they are doing an article with zero sups ect mentioned I feel it's slightly creditable, but yes they tend to bullshit a lot, because everybody just eats it up. Hell I can do the same thing to a guy at my gym with a lesser physique, in fact I totally play stupid with the gear issue with idiots at my gym lol.

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## IBdmfkr

Very good friend if mine does shoots for M&F, do you think he has ever done even one of the workouts that they post his pictures all over and make him go through while they take the shots.. Hell no. The pro's are the same way, hell even if a pro really told you what he did you probably wouldn't believe it anyhow.

I remember last year at the Arnold Classic when Dexter won the promoter ask Dex if he had any advice for the newer upcoming competitors out there, he simply said "I only train 3times/wk with 30-40mins per session".. people actually started laughing and thought he was joking, I laughed too but I wasn't laughing at Dex, people are morons and only hear what they want to hear, it'll never change.

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## spound

> Ok i realise that is not what you asked so i'll refer back to your question...personally i spread my carb/pro/carb intake equally tru out the day.


I do the same with maybe just a SLIGHT taper down in carbs for my last meal on training days, and my last two meals on non-training days. Now..if my overall carb intake was lower. then the last meal may have NO carbs in it, but in order to fit the amount of daily carbs I have alloted into my diet, it is necessary for me to have carbs in those last two meals, even if it may be a lower amount. When dieting...my last meal has NO carbs...at least after the 8-10wk mark (depends on conditioning) 






> You'd recall when i consulted at the beginning of your prep.. i believe in 24-hour nurtrition. The closest i come to practising macro timing.. is sub-macro timing: the strategic consumption of individual substrates at specific times
> 
> BCAAs/aminos pre-training.. between meals etc.
> Chromium picolinate/b-complex vits. with carb meals etc.
> 
> Nark


Nark- What is the reasoning behind having the b-complex with carb meals?? And waht is the function of the chromium? THanks...

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## *Narkissos*

> Nark- What is the reasoning behind having the b-complex with carb meals?? And waht is the function of the chromium? THanks...


chromium.. modulates blood sugar.. keeping insulin release 'within reason'.. as opposed to a comparably huge spike with each carb meal.. And it maintains insulin sensitivity.

B-complex vitamins assist in the release of energy from food ingested.. i.e. they assist with the full assimilation of foods. If you look at the main sources of the b-complex foods you'll realise that they are 'energy foods'..namely unprocessed complex carbs. Logically that would suggest that they are essential for carb metabolism.. and should be supplemented on high carb diets to increase carb utlisation.

Personal experience with both compounds (both used individually or seperately.. confirms these claims)

Nark

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## Undecided09

I hate to hop back on the OFFseason topic, but I, in the near future, am going to be asking questiong and needing help on my diet post contest...Actually, I would like to formulate an entire plan for the post contest weeks to maximize my rebound gains to really set up my bulking offseason...Also, What is the most important time post contest to set a good base for the offseason and put on some quality muscle?? two weeks after? the day after? 3 days after?? And for how long does the strictness post contest need to last to ensure you maximze the rebound effect and put on LBM and not just BM of any kind.....???

~M.A.D.

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## IBdmfkr

Nark: at what dosages are the Vit-B complex and Chromium run with each higher carb meal.. currently I take 400mcg Chromium Picolate Preworkout.

Undecided: I was back in the gym hitting it hard HIT training the Monday following the show, my diet was back on track that same day. Sunday I went with super high calories but kept them pretty clean.

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## Undecided09

Ok so I don't have to gradually move back to high calories, i can immediately move back to high, but make sure to keep them CLEAN AS FU CK because of my bodies sensitivity at that point to absorbtion and retention?? So basically a super clean bulking diet...Essentially we have to maximize the fact that my body is going to retain and absorb everything and use that in a positive way as effectively, efficiently, and usefully as possible, as opposed to being a little more lenient and letting this valuable time slip away????

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## IBdmfkr

Don't know, you have no prior experience with the rebound so there is no telling how you will respond.. I responded better than I could've imagined, hope you are the same.

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## taiboxa

im late but i just wanna say.. when bulking and crap.. i need my cardio no matter how lil or detrimental to growth because w/o it .. my stamina kicks the curb

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## *Narkissos*

> Nark: at what dosages are the Vit-B complex and Chromium run with each higher carb meal.. currently I take 400mcg Chromium Picolate Preworkout.


200-300 mcg of Chromium picolinate and 200 mg b-complex with meals number 2-4-6

2; 4; 6;.. because both the mineral and complex are water soluable.. so repeat dosing.. equally spaced is required. The second meal is selected as the first administration... because multis are taken with meal 1..and multis contain chromium by default (gtf chromium i believe)

On a 'cheat day' (which does not fit the board definition of 'cheat'... but rather is a very high-carb refeed day).. i usually have 1000mcg of chromium at the end of a very high carb meal. I won't describe the amount of carbs consumed.. cus i don't want to give anyone ideas or try to promote 'my way'.. but it is substantial. Post consumption and supplementation i feel like i'm on fire.. namely because my carb metabolism goes tru the roof

Just my personal experience

Narkissos

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## Undecided09

> Don't know, you have no prior experience with the rebound so there is no telling how you will respond.. I responded better than I could've imagined, hope you are the same.



I'll say this much B D, my body has responded to pretty much all the stimuli that I have provided it in my short history with training...Whether it be increased cals, carb depletion and fat regulation, protein consumption, or intense training, I must say I can't be happier with the way my body has responded, otherwise I might not have stayed in this game this long...My point is that for some "it" comes alot harder than for others, thank GOD I'm one of the others, lol...Point here is that I have no reason so suspect my rebound effect won't be IDEAL!!! just gotta figure out how to maximize the effects!!! or as nark would call it "noob gains" so these in effect would be my "Noob Rebound Post Contest" gains, lol...

~M.A.D.

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## spound

> Ok so I don't have to gradually move back to high calories, i can immediately move back to high, but make sure to keep them CLEAN AS FU CK because of my bodies sensitivity at that point to absorbtion and retention?? So basically a super clean bulking diet...Essentially we have to maximize the fact that my body is going to retain and absorb everything and use that in a positive way as effectively, efficiently, and usefully as possible, as opposed to being a little more lenient and letting this valuable time slip away????


I would definately have your calories pretty extremely elevated for 3 days to a week post contest...some cheating with bad foods, but nothing crazy...I would then take your calories back down (but still above maintenance), but keep them very clean so you can add mass without putting on much fat...remember it's easier to STAY lean than it is to GET lean after being fat. For that first week or so your body will be in "soak" mode where it will jsut suck everything up without really gaining noticeable fat...jsut water. After that, fat storage will set in, so I would have my calories EXTREMELY elevated for any prolonged periods of time.

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## *Narkissos*

> Don't know, you have no prior experience with the rebound so there is no telling how you will respond.. .


Ditto.

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## doittoit

Undecided personally just "go with the flow" post contest. For a month after the contest u will prolly be hungry as hell, and everything will taste good. You are young and u don't look like a guy that would get fat to easily so just eat BIG! This is what i did and was absolutely astonished at my gains.

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## *Narkissos*

bump?

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