# STEROIDS FORUM > HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY- Low T, Anti-Aging >  Common myth: Once on TRT, you're stuck on TRT

## TennTarheel

Originally Posted by @@@@
And at that point you would probably be stuck with the shots forvever.

Originally posted by @@@@
I agree with everything said above except this part. If you get destined on testosterone shots forever then it is because you had a testosterone problem to begin with. For those that merely have a bad diet and are tertiary I don't think there is anything wrong with them using HRT temporarily to get there health profile in check and then do an HPTA normalization program. After all if someone cleaned up there diet and got back in shape they could easily have normal testosterone readings afterwards. The FDA has no problem doling out Phentramine and other short cuts that have far worse side effects. When your testosterone is already low, its very hard to get to the gym and get your health back, everything is working against you.

There is no research ever showing permanent desensitization of the leydig cells, the only doc who ever published peer reviewed clinical research on HPTA recovery after ASIH has said many times almost every single patient he had recovered, it wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of time. Research has shown, and there are endless clinical studies on those using high dose steroid cycles with things far more suppressive than testosterone, that upon ceasing the androgens or anabolics patients numbers always come back into range, usually in the same amount of time that they were suppressed. 

So I don't know where this for life rumor started but its the exact opposite of what is seen clinically, and in subjective reports of AAS users.

Knowing that, what is wrong with a trial run? for someone that has lowT to begin with? If they are destined forever to T shots then it was because they were destined to have lowT, not because they took testosterone.

Just My 2 Cents 

Obviously men under 30 need a much more thorough diagnosis.

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## Times Roman

There was a reason i went on TRT. that condition will never improve. why would i consider coming off trt?

besides loss of insurance or a sudden paranoia of needles......

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## Brohim

> There was a reason i went on TRT. that condition will never improve. why would i consider coming off trt?
> 
> besides loss of insurance or a sudden paranoia of needles......


For those men who were misdiagnosed, if they get the problem fixed they can come off TRT. Many things can lower T - temporary calorie restriction, thyroid problems, adrenal problems, tons of things.

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## Times Roman

> For those men who were misdiagnosed, if they get the problem fixed they can come off TRT. Many things can lower T - temporary calorie restriction, thyroid problems, adrenal problems, tons of things.


true.

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## TennTarheel

Yes Brohim, those were the instances to which I thought this would pertain.

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## steroid.com 1

Properly prescribed, there should NEVER be a trial run of Testosterone Replacement Therapy in men in my opinion.

If a man has low sex hormone levels caused by life style habits he should never be put on a TRT protocol to begin with; rather the Physician should correct the behaviors causing the outcome.

If a man presents age related androgen deficiency and has all of the negative side effects that come with such a diagnosis I see no reason why they would ever come off a TRT protocol and why a Physician would even allow such a thing.

If a man is Primary Hypogonadal it's just a must have for quality of life.

No man "has" to go on a TRT protocol...ever, even with a Primary condition.

But for men who are ill and present seriously negative side effects or who want to live a better quality of life what's the point of a "trial"?

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## TennTarheel

I definitely agree with most of that. Although, I think there are some instances where quality of life can be greatly improved during the period of time the person is working on the root cause, you know? That is of course if that is going to be a long enough period to warrant a temporary increase in quality of life.

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## steroid.com 1

> I definitely agree with most of that. Although, I think there are some instances where quality of life can be greatly improved during the period of time the person is working on the root cause, you know? That is of course if that is going to be a long enough period to warrant a temporary increase in quality of life.


Oh, I get what you're saying but to me it's like putting a band aid on a tumor and ignoring/masking the root cause of the problem.

Drug addicts who go on methadone do what you're saying and it's a do or die situation...but not for men with low Testosterone due to life style habits.

If low serum levels are caused by life style than TRT is the last thing a man needs in my opinion. Rather a major change in life style and habits are the first call to action. 

TRT for men must be supported by a clinical medical diagnosis and not by life style and certainly not a "bridge" strategy till they get "better".

That's just me and pretty much most of the TRT Physicians' that I have spoken with over the years all who are very legit.

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## HRTstudent

I like this topic.

I might be one of the few who try life off TRT.

It's a very complex matter, of course, and TRT is not something I believe the average person should "trial". In some situations it is probably worth a shot, however.

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## steroid.com 1

Why come off?

If you felt bad before you started you're going to go back to that state again unless your cause was life style which can be corrected in most cases. 

I don't know why anyone would want to feel bad again...but I guess we're all different.

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## TennTarheel

I totally agree that if you can't get back to optimal natural levels, then there's no point in doing a restart and settling for mediocrity.

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## bass

> Originally Posted by @@@@
> And at that point you would probably be stuck with the shots forvever.
> 
> Originally posted by @@@@
> I agree with everything said above except this part. If you get destined on testosterone shots forever then it is because you had a testosterone problem to begin with. For those that merely have a bad diet and are tertiary I don't think there is anything wrong with them using HRT temporarily to get there health profile in check and then do an HPTA normalization program. After all if someone cleaned up there diet and got back in shape they could easily have normal testosterone readings afterwards. The FDA has no problem doling out Phentramine and other short cuts that have far worse side effects. When your testosterone is already low, its very hard to get to the gym and get your health back, everything is working against you.
> 
> There is no research ever showing permanent desensitization of the leydig cells, the only doc who ever published peer reviewed clinical research on HPTA recovery after ASIH has said many times almost every single patient he had recovered, it wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of time. Research has shown, and there are endless clinical studies on those using high dose steroid cycles with things far more suppressive than testosterone, that upon ceasing the androgens or anabolics patients numbers always come back into range, usually in the same amount of time that they were suppressed. 
> 
> So I don't know where this for life rumor started but its the exact opposite of what is seen clinically, and in subjective reports of AAS users.
> ...


6 months is border line, 1 year you're in for life, period. most of bodybuilders are on TRT when they retire in their 40s. yes they used heavy doses, but we all know the smallest dose will have the same effect as any larger dose. the reason for not having enough studies showing people never recovering is probably because most if not all never came off TRT to begin with. few members here tried it and they couldn't wait to get back on TRT. can someone recover from TRT after 6 months, 1 year, two years? perhaps, but where are they, where are the real studies?

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## JohnnyVegas

> For those men who were misdiagnosed, if they get the problem fixed they can come off TRT. Many things can lower T - temporary calorie restriction, thyroid problems, adrenal problems, tons of things.


How likely are those things to spontaneously heal themselves when I am in my 40s?

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## steroid.com 1

> How likely are those things to spontaneously heal themselves when I am in my 40s?


Hypothyroidism can be corrected with proper meds.

Pituitary tumors can usually be treated with meds and maybe surgery.

High E2 can be corrected with proper meds...

There are many things that can be corrected with meds and life style changes to bring sex hormones back to normal levels.

Age related decline and Primary conditions are another story...when HPTA slows down and the Thyroid slows down due to age...it's TRT for life!!!

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## kelkel

> Hypothyroidism can be corrected with proper meds.
> 
> Pituitary tumors can usually be treated with meds and maybe surgery.
> 
> High E2 can be corrected with proper meds...
> 
> There are many things that can be corrected with meds and life style changes to bring sex hormones back to normal levels.
> 
> Age related decline and Primary conditions are another story...when HPTA slows down and the Thyroid slows down due to age...*it's TRT for life*!!!


I'm in! When can I start?

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## steroid.com 1

^^^^You're already in ol'man...or did you forget LOL!!!

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## JD250

^^^^ LOL yep, one more sign that you're on TRT.....you're so old you forget that you already started. I'm on board for that one too.

I do see what the OP is saying though, there was somebody in this forum the other day with total test levels in the 600s and his doc started him on TRT, I suppose that in this stage of the TRT learning curve we will see more and more folks on that should've tried something else first and just as likely to see more and more who SHOULD be on and are not. I can only hope that all this misdiagnosis gets better in the future as more docs and patients educate themselves.

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## TennTarheel

Yeah, that was kinda my hope. I just don't want some people to feel condemned if they realize they started for the wrong reasons or something. Or better, a doctor's wrong reasons (shame shame)

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## j2048b

ive seen a few guys use a buddies restart program and have been doing very well, they had past usageof aas, and had been on trt for well over 2-8 years between them, and they are all doing fine, sometimes ur body will restart, but does not usually happen...

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## vetvso

What I would like to know is what is a precurser for Test, and what can be done to enhance that. Now my number goes to 190 or so without treatment, but if I could boost it with some other way I would love to try. Right now I need to reduce my BF with the hope my E2 will come in line, and just maybe my numbers will improve. 

For just finding out about Zinc was a something I am excited about. The less medicine I have to take the better.

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## SEOINAGE

There's times I really consider restarting after I get bodyfat down to appropriate levels. But I don't want to be miserable by any means, but I think there's still a chance I won't have to be on for life, but your talking 6 months plus of pct from what I hear, but other research where it didn't have to be as long.

Some lab results for a restart protocol. relatively short treatment. THIS IS NOT ME, I BORROWED THIS FROM SOMEONE ELSE.

Day 0


Lab Results:

Testosterone , Serum: 157 ng/dL Low Ref: 249-836

Test Free+weakly bound: 47.4 ng/dL Ref: 40-250

% Free+weakly bound: 30.2% Ref: 9-46

Estrogens Total: 23 pg/ml Low Ref: 40 -115

Estradiol: 21.3 pg/ml Ref: 7.6-42.6

Estriol: <0.3 ng/ML

Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 30.2 ng/mLLOW (REF: 32- 100)[/FONT]




Day 17

I spent the first day of this month doing a single 1000mcg HCG administration. My testicles were not atrophied so I began Clomid therapy. I started at 50mg EOD and moved to 50mg ED. After 8 days I dosed 100mg of Clomid and continued until two days ago when I stepped it down to 50mg ED.

A week and a half in I got the results of a Vitamin D3 test and found I was low so 5000iu of D3 orally + 10,000iu of transdermal D3 + sunshine (UV rays) everyday.

So after 2.5 weeks of Clomid and 1 week of vitamin D3 I retested. The results are positive and where I would want them to be 2.5 weeks into long-term therapy.

Lab Results (after 2.5 weeks of therapy):

Testosterone, Serum: 322 ng/dL Ref: 249-836 [2.5 weeks ago = 157]

Test Free+weakly bound: 75.3 ng/dL Ref: 40-250 [2.5 weeks ago = 47.4]

% Free+weakly bound: 23.4% Ref: 9-46 [2.5 weeks ago = 30.2]

Estrogens Total: 61 pg/ml Ref: 40 -115 [2.5 weeks ago = 23]

Estradiol: 21.4 pg/ml Ref: 7.6-42.6 [2.5 weeks ago = 21.3]

Estriol: <0.3 ng/ML

FSH and LH:

LH: 6.7 mIU/ml Ref: 1.7-8.6

FSH: 2.0 mIU/ml Ref: 1.5-12.4

Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 39.8 ng/mL Ref:: 32- 100 [1 week ago = 30.2]



Day 30

Events from Day 17 -Day 30

I dosed Clomid primarily 50mg/day during this period. I continued 5000iu of D3 orally + 10,000iu of transdermal D3 + sunshine (UV rays) everyday.



Lab Results (after 30 days of therapy):

Testosterone, Serum: 441 ng/dL Ref: 249-836 [Day 0 = 157] [Day 17 = 322]

Test Free+weakly bound: 55.1 ng/dL Ref: 40-250 [Day 0 = 47.4] [Day 17 = 75.3]

% Free+weakly bound: 12.5% Ref: 9-46 [Day 0 = 30.2] [Day 17 = 23.4]

Estrogens Total: 67 pg/ml Ref: 40 -115 [Day 0 = 23] [Day 17 = 61]

Estradiol: 20 pg/ml Ref: 7.6-42.6 [Day 0 = 21.3] [Day 17 = 21.4]

Estriol: <0.3 ng/ML

FSH and LH:

LH: 8.2 mIU/ml Ref: 1.7-8.6 [Day 17 = 6.7]

FSH: 3.2 mIU/ml Ref: 1.5-12.4 [Day 17 = 2.0]

Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 40.5 ng/mL Ref:: 32- 100 [Day 0 = 30.2][Day 17 = 39.8]


Two Months Post 30 Day Clomid Cycle


Illness prevented the continued use of Clomid although it SHOULD have been continued for another month. 60 days after discontinuing the 30 day results held.

- I was not able to get morning blood work drawn, only afternoon which WILL effect the results. Basically the total testosterone was exactly where it was after discontinuing Clomid (mid 400s). If I would have been able to test in the morning it may have measure in the 500s.

- The good news is that my levels have not dropped after pulling all SERM support.

- The bad news is the small hit of DAA didn't push levels higher.

- Estradiol moved into the sweet spot from 20 to 24.8

- Free & weakly bound moved higher.

- Total estrogens moved lower.

- Vitamin D3 dropped back to low after stopping the 15,000iu per day and instead doing a sporadic dosing averaging about 5,000iu per day.




Lab Results (afternoon, 60 days after stopping Clomid):

Testosterone, Serum: 438 ng/dL Ref: 249-836 [Day 0 = 157] [Day 17 = 322] [Day 30 = 441]

Test Free+weakly bound: 76.2 ng/dL Ref: 40-250 [Day 0 = 47.4] [Day 17 = 75.3][Day 30 = 55.1]

% Free+weakly bound: 17.4% Ref: 9-46 [Day 0 = 30.2] [Day 17 = 23.4][Day 30 = 12.5%]

Estrogens Total: 51 pg/ml Ref: 40 -115 [Day 0 = 23] [Day 17 = 61][Day 30 = 67]

Estradiol: 24.8 pg/ml Ref: 7.6-42.6 [Day 0 = 21.3] [Day 17 = 21.4][Day 30 = 20]

Estriol: <0.3 ng/ML

FSH and LH:

LH: 7.4 mIU/ml Ref: 1.7-8.6 [Day 17 = 6.7][Day 30 = 8.2]

FSH: 2.9 mIU/ml Ref: 1.5-12.4 [Day 17 = 2.0][Day 30 = 3.2]

Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 31.5 ng/mL Ref:: 32- 100 [Day 0 = 30.2][Day 17 = 39.8][Day 30 = 40.5]

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## SEOINAGE

Another excerpt from a different study, keep in mind research is showing raloxifine effective dose to be double what was used in the study.

From, The effect of selective estrogen receptor modulator administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia, Elena Tsourdi M.D., Ph.D, Fertility and Sterility Volume 91, Issue 4, Supplement 1, April 2009, Pages 1427-1430

Tamoxifen Group
The first 94 men received tamoxifen as monotherapy at a dose of 20 mg daily for a period of 3 months.

Toremifene Group
Consecutively, 99 men received toremifene at a dose of 60 mg daily for the same period.

Raloxifene Group
and 91 men received raloxifene at a dose of 60 mg daily for 3 months.


At baseline and at the end of the first, second, and third months of treatment, blood samples were collected at 9 am after an overnight fast.

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## THE-DET-OAK

> Originally Posted by @@@@
> And at that point you would probably be stuck with the shots forvever.
> 
> Originally posted by @@@@
> I agree with everything said above except this part. If you get destined on testosterone shots forever then it is because you had a testosterone problem to begin with. For those that merely have a bad diet and are tertiary I don't think there is anything wrong with them using HRT temporarily to get there health profile in check and then do an HPTA normalization program. After all if someone cleaned up there diet and got back in shape they could easily have normal testosterone readings afterwards. The FDA has no problem doling out Phentramine and other short cuts that have far worse side effects. When your testosterone is already low, its very hard to get to the gym and get your health back, everything is working against you.
> 
> There is no research ever showing permanent desensitization of the leydig cells, the only doc who ever published peer reviewed clinical research on HPTA recovery after ASIH has said many times almost every single patient he had recovered, it wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of time. Research has shown, and there are endless clinical studies on those using high dose steroid cycles with things far more suppressive than testosterone, that upon ceasing the androgens or anabolics patients numbers always come back into range, usually in the same amount of time that they were suppressed. 
> 
> So I don't know where this for life rumor started but its the exact opposite of what is seen clinically, and in subjective reports of AAS users.
> ...



I knew this post looked familiar  :Smilie:

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## JohnnyVegas

> Hypothyroidism can be corrected with proper meds.
> 
> Pituitary tumors can usually be treated with meds and maybe surgery.
> 
> High E2 can be corrected with proper meds...
> 
> There are many things that can be corrected with meds and life style changes to bring sex hormones back to normal levels.
> 
> Age related decline and Primary conditions are another story...when HPTA slows down and the Thyroid slows down due to age...it's TRT for life!!!


Interesting stuff. I actually do not know why my levels are low. My doc ran the tests, saw that I was dreadfully low (outside of range) and started me on TRT right away.

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## sparverius

A friend of mine was on Agel for 10 years. He quit and went on a strict diet. He's now lighter than he's been in years and stopped using his CPAP machine. His T number have been coming up and he's feeling good.

I was on Agel for 6 years. I thought that my low T was due to life stress. At a point where my stress was low I did a medically prescribed restart with Clomid and Anastrozole. It was the most miserable 5 months of my life. Needless to say it didn't work. Now with better diagnosis my doc thinks I'm primary and perhaps also secondary although an MRI didn't show any tumors. I had testicular cancer in my 20s and the doc thinks that something was damaged. When I did the restart one of my testicals swelled up to normal size but the other didn't. Maybe the good one just wore out.

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## Brohim

> A friend of mine was on Agel for 10 years. He quit and went on a strict diet. He's now lighter than he's been in years and stopped using his CPAP machine. His T number have been coming up and he's feeling good.
> 
> I was on Agel for 6 years. I thought that my low T was due to life stress. At a point where my stress was low I did a medically prescribed restart with Clomid and Anastrozole. It was the most miserable 5 months of my life. Needless to say it didn't work. Now with better diagnosis my doc thinks I'm primary and perhaps also secondary although an MRI didn't show any tumors. I had testicular cancer in my 20s and the doc thinks that something was damaged. When I did the restart one of my testicals swelled up to normal size but the other didn't. Maybe the good one just wore out.


Since you were on Agel a restart for you would be HCG + Clomid. HCG will get your balls online and Clomid will get LH working again.

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## Brohim

> 6 months is border line, 1 year you're in for life, period. most of bodybuilders are on TRT when they retire in their 40s. yes they used heavy doses, but we all know the smallest dose will have the same effect as any larger dose. the reason for not having enough studies showing people never recovering is probably because most if not all never came off TRT to begin with. few members here tried it and they couldn't wait to get back on TRT. can someone recover from TRT after 6 months, 1 year, two years? perhaps, but where are they, where are the real studies?


bodybuilding doses shut you down a lot harder than small doses. Also other BB compounds (deca , tren ) are more harsh on HPTA. It will take longer to restart the longer your HPTA is shutdown. For someone doing HRT test only they could successfully restart anytime they wanted to even if on HRT for years. But like GD said if the low test is from age, you will merely restart to the level you began with. And if that level makes you feel sick then why would you want to do that? 

If a guy was overweight and he had high E2 and low test and went on HRT and his weight came down (corrected the root cause) he could possibly restart and go off TRT.

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## THE-DET-OAK

> 6 months is border line, 1 year you're in for life, period.


^^^^ this is terrible information. 






> where are the real studies?


The reason there are not a ton of studies is because of the way the medical community looks at those who used AAS. On top of the that the medical community doesn't have the first clue about androgens or reversing androgen induced hypogonadism. There are case studies out there, and the few that are there pretty much all show that reversal was attained. On top of that the only guy who has ever published peer reviewed clinical research on it has said out of his 1,000's of patients almost all were able to attain reversal.




> Research results on reversal HPTA
> 
> 
> Objective:
> Although shown to be effective for their intended medical treatment, AAS have been shown to induce hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in adult males. The medical literature is conflicting in the reports of spontaneous return and long-term suppression of gonadal suppression post AAS usage. This observational study documents the treatment protocol of HCG , clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen in returning hormonal function to normal post AAS usage. Design:
> Five HIV-negative males age 27-49, weighing 77-100 kg, with serum total testosterone levels below 240 ng/dL and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels below 1.5 mIU/mL were considered for this observational study. All five patients were administered the treatment protocol.
> Methods:
> Treatment consisted of combination therapy which included concurrent administration of (a) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin , (b) Clomiphene Citrate and (c) Tamoxifen Citrate for a standard duration of 45 days. This protocol was repeated with every patient until serum LH and total testosterone values reached normal ranges.
> Results:
> ...


http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...L#.UI8xqrQqafQ

There is even some research showing that reversal of idiopathic hypogonadism has been attained by implementing testosterone therapy .




> Sustained reversal of normosmic idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and the Kallmann syndrome was noted after discontinuation of treatment in about 10% of patients with either absent or partial puberty. Therefore, brief discontinuation of hormonal therapy to assess reversibility of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is reasonable. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00392756.)


http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa066494

So I guess the better question would be to ask where are all the studies showing reversal is not possible?

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## TennTarheel

Amen^^^^^

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## JohnnyVegas

Reversal would be great. I would love to live without shots.

Having said that, it seems unlikely there is a path to that while still maintaining the Test levels I have now. Right? I don't know what got my Test levels down into the low 200s but I can't imagine ever being in the 800s again naturally. I will admit that I have no interest in having healthy, but middle of the range levels. I have worked hard to get this muscle mass and don't want to lose it.

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## kelkel

Scally is preparing a new pct/restart paper as we speak. He's also including Triptorelin in it as well....

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## JD250

So is there anyone on the boards who can boast of a personal restart or is this all hypothetical? happened to somebody somewhere? my cousin knows a guy who worked out with someone who experienced a restart?............anyone?

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## THE-DET-OAK

> So is there anyone on the boards who can boast of a personal restart or is this all hypothetical? happened to somebody somewhere? my cousin knows a guy who worked out with someone who experienced a restart?............anyone?


There is really well known member of one of the other boards I am on, I think he was on 4 years straight, he posted his entire process and logged it with blood work, he recovered.

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## Sworder

@THE-DET-OAK Great posts!




> bodybuilding doses shut you down a lot harder than small doses. *Also other BB compounds (deca, tren) are more harsh on HPTA.* It will take longer to restart the longer your HPTA is shutdown. For someone doing HRT test only they could successfully restart anytime they wanted to even if on HRT for years. But like GD said if the low test is from age, you will merely restart to the level you began with. And if that level makes you feel sick then why would you want to do that?


Not true, deca will shut you down faster than testosterone , but, it is not "harsher" in any other aspect, if you did indeed mean speed of inhibition I apologize. Otherwise, you are wrong in your assumptions. 1000mg Test/week will bring your LH/FSH to 0, 400mg tren /week won't drive them to -1.0.  :Smilie:  Nor have I seen any evidence that supports the notion that deca/tren, in any degree larger than testosterone, will cause a higher degree of atrophy of the cells.




> *Properly prescribed*, there should NEVER be a trial run of Testosterone Replacement Therapy in men in my opinion.


How many TRT doctors try a restart protocol when a patient is secondary if all other values are normal? Do you? Considering if you ask the patient if he has taken steroids in the past, he may lie. Taking that in consideration, a restart protocol should be tried before TRT in every case for the hope of jump starting the HPTA. Do you agree that TRT is not properly prescribed if a restart protocol has not been tried with patients whom are secondary?

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## j2048b

> So is there anyone on the boards who can boast of a personal restart or is this all hypothetical? happened to somebody somewhere? my cousin knows a guy who worked out with someone who experienced a restart?............anyone?


YES! Cashout (screen name) on ************ and steroid insight dot com has a great restart thread on his restart that a few others have tried with success! He is a bodybuilder who went on trt for a few years and decided to try a restart and so far from about may 2012 till now he has been good and his numbers have been high, but he actually had high test naturally before he started bodybuilding and going on trt!

Check his story out and give his restart a try, dont think i can add links but ill try:

I cant post a link yet but check their hrt section on steroidinsight dot com


1st post is his strategie and he did an update on post 12 to include better advice with certain compounds!

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## jamotech

> YES! Cashout (screen name) on ************ and steroid insight dot com has a great restart thread on his restart that a few others have tried with success! He is a bodybuilder who went on trt for a few years and decided to try a restart and so far from about may 2012 till now he has been good and his numbers have been high,* but he actually had high test naturally before he started bodybuilding and going on trt!
> *
> Check his story out and give his restart a try, dont think i can add links but ill try:
> 
> I cant post a link yet but check their hrt section on steroidinsight dot com
> 
> 
> 1st post is his strategie and he did an update on post 12 to include better advice with certain compounds!


Seems in his case he was successful, but as you said he had normal levels before. So, recovery may be possible only if you never needed to go on trt in the first place.

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## THE-DET-OAK

> Seems in his case he was successful, but as you said he had normal levels before. So, recovery may be possible only if you never needed to go on trt in the first place.


did you see the study I posted? 10% of guys with clinically diagnosed hypo recovered.

I will agree that if your idiopathic the chances go down quite a bit.

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## Swifto

> Not true, deca will shut you down faster than testosterone , but, it is not "harsher" in any other aspect, if you did indeed mean speed of inhibition I apologize. Otherwise, you are wrong in your assumptions. 1000mg Test/week will bring your LH/FSH to 0, 400mg tren /week won't drive them to -1.0.  Nor have I seen any evidence that supports the notion that deca/tren, in any degree larger than testosterone, will cause a higher degree of atrophy of the cells.


This is actually a good point, but I now believe there are levels of shutdown, why do users have trouble recovering so much more when using 19-Nor's, than on a Testosterone cycle if they both cause shutdown and the only variable being one causes shutdown in days, the other in 2-3 weeks?

My testes atrophied after 100mg of Tren Ace when I had been on Test Enan 200mg/wk for over a year, go figure... I was still "shutdown" though, my endo. LH/FSH was still zero, so what happened?

Dont ask me to confirm it by science as I haven't found it yet.

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## Sworder

Perhaps, it's the shutdown in days/weeks that make a difference. Those extra weeks provide further atrophy, I am not sure.

About the tren , I can't imagine there being a difference in shutdown. Unless you believe trenbolone to be toxic to reproductive tissue, which studies support. In the embryo of a quail  :Big Grin:

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## jamotech

I believed in the past that shutdown was shutdown, no levels. I added deca to a blast, and within about 3-4 weeks I had to almost double my hcg dose to stop the atrophy. 3 weeks after I stopped the deca I returned to my regular HCG dose and all was good. 

Now... I have to believe there are levels, at least according to the nutometer, which we all know is one of the most accurate gauging devices known to man!

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## Sworder

Well, quite honestly, it is impossible to tell if the leydig cells are atrophying by the volume of your testicles. If you believe it to have other effects, I can go along with that, such as toxicity or something to that effect. The actual atrophy (degree of shutdown) of the leydig cells. which are of concern when mentioning HPTA, are a different story.

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## bass

> ^^^^ this is terrible information.


No, not terrible information, most if not all of us on TRT understood that TRT is for life. Do some recover? Of course, but most won't. We're talking about recovering from TRT! Recover to what?! There is a reason why we got on TRT in the first place.

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## THE-DET-OAK

> No, not terrible information, most if not all of us on TRT understood that TRT is for life. Do some recover? Of course, but most won't. We're talking about recovering from TRT! Recover to what?! There is a reason why we got on TRT in the first place.


I just meant that telling someone that if they try TRT for a year they are on for life and its just not true man.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

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## bass

> I just meant that telling someone that if they try TRT for a year they are on for life and its just not true man.
> 
> We will have to agree to disagree on that one.


i would rather take the risk as a fact than a false hope. the phrase "TRT is for life" was established for a good reason. i stand by my comment that there is a point of no return. BTW are you on TRT?

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## TennTarheel

There are so many different variables at play when it comes to someone having low test. For most, yes, I would think HRT is for life bc otherwise they would just feel like shit with low T. But I feel like there are plenty of situations that would warrant HRT while the underlying problem is handled so the person doesn't go a few years of just feeling like ass with low test. It's obviously a delicate situation and process and of course one would have to weigh the pros and cons, but I have to say I agree with OAK on this.

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## APIs

> No, not terrible information, most if not all of us on TRT understood that TRT is for life. Do some recover? Of course, but most won't. We're talking about recovering from TRT! Recover to what?! There is a reason why we got on TRT in the first place.


x2. I for one have seen quite a few people on this forum & in real life who have tried the re-start game. Everyone ultimately came back with crappy numbers & feeling worse than when they first started TRT. Yeah, that's not for me thanks. I'm doing just fine where I am & frankly too busy to dick around with this anyway...

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## bass

> I'm doing just fine where I am & frankly too busy to dick around with this anyway...


LMAO! Exactly bro.

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## Sworder

> *Properly prescribed*, there should NEVER be a trial run of Testosterone Replacement Therapy in men in my opinion.





> How many TRT doctors try a restart protocol when a patient is secondary if all other values are normal? Do you? Considering if you ask the patient if he has taken steroids in the past, he may lie. Taking that in consideration, a restart protocol should be tried before TRT in every case for the hope of jump starting the HPTA. Do you agree that TRT is not properly prescribed if a restart protocol has not been tried with patients whom are secondary?


Would be very interested in a response!

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## TennTarheel

It's as if some of you are hating on the people that may be able to be temporary HRTers. Kinda odd


I guess it's maybe just Hormone Therapy for those and not a lifetime replacement. I just don't know why it has to be a hard rule HRT For Life, nothing else

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## bass

> It's as if some of you are hating on the people that may be able to be temporary HRTers. Kinda odd
> 
> 
> I guess it's maybe just Hormone Therapy for those and not a lifetime replacement. I just don't know why it has to be a hard rule HRT For Life, nothing else


it is what it is bro! TRT is also mental, you should look forward not back-words. TRT can change your life for better why look back?!

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## steroid.com 1

Originally Posted by gdevine 
*Properly prescribed*, there should NEVER be a trial run of Testosterone Replacement Therapy in men in my opinion.


Originally Posted by Sworder 
How many TRT doctors try a restart protocol when a patient is secondary if all other values are normal? Do you? Considering if you ask the patient if he has taken steroids in the past, he may lie. Taking that in consideration, a restart protocol should be tried before TRT in every case for the hope of jump starting the HPTA. Do you agree that TRT is not properly prescribed if a restart protocol has not been tried with patients whom are secondary?

Would be very interested in a response! 


The first two words of this sentence are bolded for a reason: Properly prescribed = When everything else failed.

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## TennTarheel

I honestly would love to know I always have optimal test levels. Hell, I'm sure once I get going I probably won't want to chance ever being lower than optimal with the occasional blast along the way. I'm still trying to find the right doc so I can start feeling good again. Shit, I'm living in the low T range right now and sure as hell would never want to come back to this.

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## Sworder

> The first two words of this sentence are bolded for a reason: Properly prescribed = When everything else failed.


Greatly appreciated!

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