# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Poor Terry Schiavo

## BUBBA74

This crap makes me so mad! Why would they let her starve to death! They say it could take up to two weeks for her to finally pass away. That is some cruel shti. If they are going to remove the feeding tube why dont they give her an injection or something to help it along??? 

http://news.google.com/news?q=terry+...ab=nn&oi=newsr

----------


## BigRandy

i completely agree

----------


## kloter1

this process shouldve been done years ago. i think the judge made the correct decision. let the poor woman go. good lord.

----------


## abstrack

> This crap makes me so mad! Why would they let her starve to death! They say it could take up to two weeks for her to finally pass away. That is some cruel shti. If they are going to remove the feeding tube why dont they give her an injection or something to help it along??? 
> 
> http://news.google.com/news?q=terry+schiavo&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr


 then it would be assisted suicide and that is illegal. I think it is more crule to keep a feeding tube in someones mouth who wants to die.

I would think at it like this: If I was normally healthy and all the sudden I was hit with a virus that put me into a death spin where I was lying in a bed all day being fed by a tube; I would rather die.

----------


## Jack87

If it was me I would want to be killed... Simple as that...
Right or wrong I don't care, I would hope someone would 
have the balls to do it, I know some of my closes people would.

----------


## hugeishuge

Her husband could have easily walked away and not taken all this grief. But he believes strongly that Terry wanted no life support. I doubt I would have been as determined.

----------


## Jack87

The whole thing is such a mess, the husband has stayed by herside
all these years and now you have the Government trying to get into
the whole **** thing like they don't have enuf problems in the middle
east, or with the economy or 10's of thousands of other things... Bush
is such a fuking asshole cocksucker... He should trade places with her..




> Her husband could have easily walked away and not taken all this grief. But he believes strongly that Terry wanted no life support. I doubt I would have been as determined.

----------


## bedrock

Me and some of my biker bro's have a pact. If one of us ever gets in that kind of shape...... one giant dose of NYC dope and its off to that giant ride in the sky !

----------


## BUBBA74

> Me and some of my biker bro's have a pact. If one of us ever gets in that kind of shape...... one giant dose of NYC dope and its off to that giant ride in the sky !


I think I would want to die if I were in that situation. But what do you think about her starving to death over a 2 week period? We put dogs down more humanly than that.  :Don't know:

----------


## Juggernaut

Hence the reason every one of you should have a living will stating what you want done if something like this ever happened to you. 

I can understand the family wanting to keep her alive but I don't think she'll ever come out of ther state she currently is in. But our wonderful meddling goverment here in FL will **** things up.......another reason I hate politics and politicians.

----------


## Diesel

> Hence the reason every one of you should have a living will stating what you want done if something like this ever happened to you.



Exactly! However, it is something most people do not think to do.

As for me, if i can not live a quality life, pull the plug. I am not afraid to die. I am afraid of living in a vegitative state though.

----------


## Juggernaut

> Exactly! However, it is something most people do not think to do.
> 
> As for me, if i can not live a quality life, pull the plug. I am not afraid to die. I am afraid of living in a vegitative state though.


I don't really need a living will.....last time I went to the doc for blood work my wife placed a "Do not Resuscitate" on the file.......I'm starting to watch her a little more closely. hahahahaha

----------


## Benches505

The woman has been in that condition for more than 15 years! It's time for her parents to do something for her instead of trying to keep her alive for themselves.

----------


## Pale Horse

I have a living will, made it 2 years ago. There is much more to this than people know (this case) it is suspected she was beaten into that state by her husband. I have seen several in depth documentaries on this case.

Either way the husband needs to let go and move on, let her parents decide IMO.

----------


## Juggernaut

> I have a living will, made it 2 years ago. There is much more to this than people know (this case) it is suspected she was beaten into that state by her husband. I have seen several in depth documentaries on this case.
> 
> Either way the husband needs to let go and move on, let her parents decide IMO.


I live here so I know for a fact that is total misinformation. I've been following this for years. They have no idea what caused this to happen to her....it's believed she was trying to lose weight and could have taken something or due to whatever she was doing it could have caused this. Her husband gets NOTHING by fighting her parents. He believes this is what she wanted and what she told him to do if anything like this ever happened to her. The money he would have gotten from the insurance is long gone, paying for medical bills. Hell, her parents have even found people who would give him 100k if he would just sign over legal gardianship to them and he won't do it. I don't think he's being selfish.....just doing what someone he loved wanted done.

----------


## Juggernaut

And someone tell me why the **** the goverment has to get involved.....the courts have already decided! The courts uphold the law and the goverment makes the laws......but I guess when it's an election coming up you need to get your name in the paper. ****ers.....who can hate cops when there are so many worthy politicians you can hate?

----------


## Pale Horse

Juggy................how can you explain the fractures that they found that were unaccounted for?

----------


## Jack87

Cus Republicans are Conservatives and this plays right into their hands...
Gotta love how Lil Georgie got this passed so quick, crap in only 3 days...
Now if he can only fix the rest of the countries problems so fast...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, and please no BS about how great
the Republican Party is, come on they both suck IMO, this country is in deep
****.. Nobody in Washington has a fuking clue how to fix things anymore...




> And someone tell me why the **** the goverment has to get involved.....the courts have already decided! The courts uphold the law and the goverment makes the laws......but I guess when it's an election coming up you need to get your name in the paper. ****ers.....who can hate cops when there are so many worthy politicians you can hate?

----------


## Juggernaut

> Juggy................how can you explain the fractures that they found that were unaccounted for?


What fractures? There are no fractures I know of. I'm telling you bro, the right wing groups have put the wagons in a circle and now it's time to play dirty. 

Buff.........bro you're like my long lost brother. I so hear you...preach on brother. As we can see the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.......JEB.....I must admit is not a favorite of mine. Don't even get me started on his brain challenged ass.

----------


## Pale Horse

No there are fractures (on her spine) that are unaccounted for. I kid you not!

----------


## Juggernaut

> No there are fractures (on her spine) that are unaccounted for. I kid you not!


There could be...bro I have fractures of a couple disks myself. They could have occured during the fall when she collapsed. There's no telling, but I doubt it has anything to do with the husband. What's he's motive?

----------


## Jack87

Because of your recent avatar change that scares almost as much as
George W. does... lol  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  But glad someone sees what I'm saying...  :Wink: 




> Buff.........bro you're like my long lost brother. I so hear you...preach on brother. As we can see the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.......JEB.....I must admit is not a favorite of mine. Don't even get me started on his brain challenged ass.

----------


## decadbal

god bless her and her family

----------


## Diesel

> Cus Republicans are Conservatives and this plays right into their hands...
> Gotta love how Lil Georgie got this passed so quick, crap in only 3 days...
> Now if he can only fix the rest of the countries problems so fast... 
> I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, and please no BS about how great
> the Republican Party is, come on they both suck IMO, this country is in deep
> ****.. Nobody in Washington has a fuking clue how to fix things anymore...


Yet I believe I saw somewhere that when he was gov of TX that he approved the right for Dr.'s to pull the plug on anyone that could not afford their medical bills......

I'll have to dig and see if I can find that one.....

----------


## RATM

I am very torn on this subject. I think that both her husband and parents have valid defenses. My wife and I have talked at lenght about the subject of life support and have made it clear to those who need to of our wishes. 

That being said. As a parent, I would be doing the EXACT same things as her parents are doing. No one would tell me what THEY think is the best interests of my children are.

The main problem that I have with this whole thing is similar to Buff and Juggy's opinion of the interference of the government. I think that too many right wing conservative religious zelots are using this as another way to force feed us their beliefs. Our country was founded with the premise (among others) that the church and the state will remain seperate. More and more, however, this is not the case. That really scares me.

----------


## Jack87

All very valid points and I respect them.. I can only say that if I was
in her position I would want to die... Anyone close to me in real life
knows that... I don't fear death at all, but do fear something happening
to me that makes me end up like that... 




> I am very torn on this subject. I think that both her husband and parents have valid defenses. My wife and I have talked at lenght about the subject of life support and have made it clear to those who need to of our wishes. 
> 
> That being said. As a parent, I would be doing the EXACT same things as her parents are doing. No one would tell me what THEY think is the best interests of my children are.
> 
> The main problem that I have with this whole thing is similar to Buff and Juggy's opinion of the interference of the government. I think that too many right wing conservative religious zelots are using this as another way to force feed us their beliefs. Our country was founded with the premise (among others) that the church and the state will remain seperate. More and more, however, this is not the case. That really scares me.

----------


## yikes!!

I don't see how anyone would want to live like that........

----------


## 19inchpythons

Shame Shame Shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Lozgod

Why is everyone saying she doesnt want to be on a tube? She had no will, there is no proof of this, and her husband was for keeping her alive up until a couple of years ago.

Anyway, if she can feel pain she is in for a painful miserable death, her kidneys are going to fail, her brain may swell, I mean this is the cruelest possible way to kill her, they mine as well set her on fire it will be quicker.

If she has a right to die, then she should have a right to assistance with it

----------


## juicedOUTbrain

IT is sick they have to starve her in the US in 2005...but she doesnt feel pain...the cerebral cortex which is the part of the brain that controls emotion, persolality, rational, logic is completely GONE! all she has is a brain stem which regulates your heart, and reflex reactions
I kno they were considering a divorce and I heard that story about the fraction on her spine so the husband looks pretty fishy to me, IMO! but either way the court decided that she wanted to die in this situation, from the testimoy of MANY people, not just the husband!
Weather the husbands a scumbag or not, she wanted to die, and 15 years is long enough


PS- notice that this happens all the time and, the republicans happened to pick a case in florida...can JEB say POLITICALLY MOTIVATED

----------


## Cycleon

whats wild is tht they may be going to take custody of her (FL) and reinsert the tube - which they have legal right to do - what a mess

----------


## Diesel

Where is Dr. Kavorkian (sp?) when you need him?

(I honestly don't think the guy ever did anything wrong)

----------


## juicedOUTbrain

I just saw jeb say that...wow, these guys will do anything if it will score some political points...they have good reason to do it

1.Make democrats look bad by saying we should "kill her"
2.Make docs more money, bush still owes em!
3.Advance the Pro-Life agenda
4.Take peoples attention off the WAR and DEFECIT
5.Score Jeb some points

Am I missing anything guys?

----------


## Diesel

> Where is Dr. Kavorkian (sp?) when you need him?
> 
> (I honestly don't think the guy ever did anything wrong)



Let me elaborate a bit.

I certainly would not want to live in her currrent state. However, starving to death has to be one of the worst ways to go.

----------


## Jack87

Straving to death is a cruel thing to do to her.. They can't really just put 
her to death as that would require her giving consent or you have a real 
cut and dry murder case on your hands in the eyes of the law, but I know
no matter how fuking painful I'd want to be taken out anyway it had to 
be done.. as I said death, pain, none of the **** scares me... Now living 
in a state like she is, That's scares me... I'd want out... Whatever it takes.. 




> Let me elaborate a bit.
> 
> I certainly would not want to live in her currrent state. However, starving to death has to be one of the worst ways to go.

----------


## SplinterCell

The most disgusting part of this whole mess is seeing the Bushies being led around by the nose. Just watch Bush, Hannity, Limbaugh, et al segue this into a major attack on 'activist liberal judges.'

Why do I say Bush's supporters are led by the nose? Look at Iraq: Before the war nobody gave a shiat about Iraqis. Then Bush got going with the 'torture chambers and rape rooms' argument and, all-of-a-sudden, Bushies are concerned about Iraqis. Were they concerned about Iraqis under a decade of sanctions? No. Are they concerned about human rights abuses going on in Iraq RIGHT NOW? No. Were they concerned about other countries such as Sudan and Sierra Leone where similar atrocities were taking place? No. Because the Republicans didn't tell them to care about those places and so their supporters didn't.

I find it sadly amusing to see the self-righteous effort the fundies and righties are pouring into this case. Will they continue the debate after Schiavo dies and rally to the cause of those like her? No. Because the Republicans will channel their anger into judicial 'reform' in an attempt to pack the courts with conservative ideologues. Those like Sciavo will be discarded like yesterdays fashions. Schiavo is simply the feel-good cause du jour.

Regardless of what many in this thread think, it's win-win for the righties. They will somehow manage to blame all of this on the Evil Liberals (Did you know that one of the judges involved in all this was a Clinton nominee??!! Oh goodness!!) and Hannity and Limbaugh will hammer it home.

/If you tell a lie enough times it becomes the truth...

----------


## Billy_Bathgate

Rib and spinal fractures are easily possilbe by CPR

I break at least 4 or 5 ribs every time ive given CPR, amd give it to someone fragile..i could easily see a spinal fracture

----------


## Lozgod

> Rib and spinal fractures are easily possilbe by CPR
> 
> I break at least 4 or 5 ribs every time ive given CPR, amd give it to someone fragile..i could easily see a spinal fracture


Thanks for being an EMT bro. That is the most unappreciated job on the planet.

----------


## BUBBA74

Well begining her second week without the feeding tube she is starting to fade. 

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/arti...00010000000001

----------


## abstrack

good for her. I bet she can finally be happy for once instead of other people getting their emotions involved in her life and keeping that poor women alive.

----------


## BUBBA74

Yep it will be good for her and everyone else when shes finally at peace.

----------


## abstrack

It makes me so disgusted to see that poor women just laid up in a bed all day drooling over herself. I can't believe that her own flesh and blood want to see her go on through life like that.

----------


## Mighty

The sad story in this isn't that she is going to finally be allowed to finish dying. That only thing sad about it is the fact that she "DIED" way back when her heart stopped for a few minutes rendering her brain dead, and her parents and family have strung her along for this long due to there own selfishness, and not wanting her to be gone.
I'm happy for Terry Schiavo, and her husband, and screw her parents. What parent would put their child through that (wether she can feel it or not) for their own selfishness. I wonder if they will have her taxidermied, and put back in her old bedroom  :Don't know:

----------


## HeartDocMD

Starvation, in a mentally intact person is a horrible way to go, however, Terry, is not like this. It has been proven time and time again that her "vegetative state" includes the destruction of the center of the brain that intreprets the neurological signals of pain. This has been documented by serial EEGs, CT Scans, and MRIs. So in reality, although to us the word "starvation" seems awful, to her she feels no pain, and is essentially slipping away into a coma. All that she has left is basic autonomic functioning....and essentially she is already dead. This is my viewpoint.

I actually do agree with physician assisted suicide, however, the problem lies in what actually warrents this?...Where do we draw the line with who can die and who cannot?...

On a more personal note, I really can't stand these "Right To Life" groups. Its so frustrating how they twist and manipulate the public into believing as they do. Probably my most frustrating moment with these people came years ago. A women who had progressive cancer of the esophagus was essentially on her death bed. It stuck with me because how sweet, kind and wonderful a person she was. She made it clear of her wishes not only to us as physicians but also in a DNI/DNR. It was so frustrating to watch the Right to Life groups actually arguing and petitioning DESPITE THE FACT she had a legal DNI/DNR! They actually took us to court, it was absolutely disgusting. What struck me the most was that these people KNEW her wishes but didn't care. They wanted to get in the news, and wanted to get their point heard, whether or not this sweet women wanted it or not.

I guess, what Im trying to say, is dont believe everything you hear. These groups have their own motives, whether religious or monetary, and I can speak from personal experience that in general they are insane. I know its harsh to say that and I am not usually this judgmental but after what I have seen them do to innocent VICTIMS, THEIR VICTIMS, its a discrace...

-DocMD

----------


## RATM

> What parent would put their child through that (wether she can feel it or not) for their own selfishness.


You obviously are NOT a parent

----------


## RATM

> Starvation, in a mentally intact person is a horrible way to go, however, Terry, is not like this. It has been proven time and time again that her "vegetative state" includes the destruction of the center of the brain that intreprets the neurological signals of pain. This has been documented by serial EEGs, CT Scans, and MRIs. So in reality, although to us the word "starvation" seems awful, to her she feels no pain, and is essentially slipping away into a coma. All that she has left is basic autonomic functioning....and essentially she is already dead. This is my viewpoint.
> 
> I actually do agree with physician assisted suicide, however, the problem lies in what actually warrents this?...Where do we draw the line with who can die and who cannot?...
> 
> On a more personal note, I really can't stand these "Right To Life" groups. Its so frustrating how they twist and manipulate the public into believing as they do. Probably my most frustrating moment with these people came years ago. A women who had progressive cancer of the esophagus was essentially on her death bed. It stuck with me because how sweet, kind and wonderful a person she was. She made it clear of her wishes not only to us as physicians but also in a DNI/DNR. It was so frustrating to watch the Right to Life groups actually arguing and petitioning DESPITE THE FACT she had a legal DNI/DNR! They actually took us to court, it was absolutely disgusting. What struck me the most was that these people KNEW her wishes but didn't care. They wanted to get in the news, and wanted to get their point heard, whether or not this sweet women wanted it or not.
> 
> I guess, what Im trying to say, is dont believe everything you hear. These groups have their own motives, whether religious or monetary, and I can speak from personal experience that in general they are insane. I know its harsh to say that and I am not usually this judgmental but after what I have seen them do to innocent VICTIMS, THEIR VICTIMS, its a discrace...
> 
> -DocMD


Excellent Post Doc!!!!!!!!

----------


## Mighty

> You obviously are NOT a parent


I have a fourteen year old daughter, and believe me if the doctor ever came to me and said she was brain dead with no chance of survival off of life support, I was be destroyed, and say my goodbyes.
Are you saying you would keep your child on a machine so that you wouldn't have to face reality, and say goodbye ?....crazy

----------


## BUBBA74

Terry Schiavo past away this morning.

----------


## TommyTrainR

In no way do I intend the following statements to offend anyone, but...

I'm glad she died. I was sick and tired of hearing about this bed-ridden woman every day. On TV, in the newspaper, on the radio, it was everywhere! It's a case of life or death. I'll admit I got depressed over the story and I hate being depressed thus I hated how I heard about it over and over on a daily basis. God bless her as hopefully she can finally live in peace and tranquility.

----------


## El Jugo Buen0

it's horrible what happened to her because she was starved and obviously was not completely brain dead if she could make noises, blink, etc...several friends of mine that work in the special school system as physical therapists work with kids in more of a vegatative state than her...

----------


## abstrack

every one has to die some day! We all have our time when we leave this earth. If you are suspended on some kind of life support system you are not living and she was not living. I feel veri disgusted by the fact that other people got their feeling involved and kept her alive for so long.

----------


## Mighty

> it's horrible what happened to her because she was starved and obviously was not completely brain dead if she could make noises, blink, etc...several friends of mine that work in the special school system as physical therapists work with kids in more of a vegatative state than her...


Any more of a vegetative state than Terrri Schiavo and she would need to be on a heart and lung machine, this woman was brain dead, and I would imagine that her making any noise what so ever, was more likely due to involuntary movments or spasms , than her "trying" to communicate. 
I agree with abstrack. This woman was DEAD, science brought her back and kept her body living and for what ? $$$$

----------


## RA

While I agree that if you are a veggie you should be allowed to kick the bucket, I don't think this was the case. After her stroke she was in rehab and able to be fed. Her husband put a stop to all rehab and had them put the tube back in. 

I had to do a paper on a guy who only had 10% of his brain left after a car accident. During rehab his brain formed new pathways and he regained motor function and actually is working today. 

While I agree with the premise that the husband should have the say, I don't think he had her best interest at heart, as stated above.

----------


## Juggernaut

> While I agree that if you are a veggie you should be allowed to kick the bucket, I don't think this was the case. After her stroke she was in rehab and able to be fed. Her husband put a stop to all rehab and had them put the tube back in. 
> 
> I had to do a paper on a guy who only had 10% of his brain left after a car accident. During rehab his brain formed new pathways and he regained motor function and actually is working today. 
> 
> While I agree with the premise that the husband should have the say, I don't think he had her best interest at heart, as stated above.


Wrong....she has never been able to swallow. Don't believe all you read or hear.

----------


## XxElitexX

thats messed up....surely there was some other way they could let her pass away. im speechless.

----------


## Juggernaut

> thats messed up....surely there was some other way they could let her pass away. im speechless.


Agreed.............hence the reason courts and politicains should have never been involved.

----------


## RA

> Wrong....she has never been able to swallow. Don't believe all you read or hear.


How do you know...Got proof? I ask because this was my only sticking point.

----------


## Juggernaut

I live across the bay from where everything went down. Terrie has been front page news here since the parents started the lawsuit.....what was it 7-8 years now? We've even had stories about how messed up the information in other news sources are.

----------


## bmf2

I know if I was in that state I would want her husband to be taking care of me... after reading many hours of transcripts from the nursing home as to how strict he was on her care and how much he cared for her every need from wanting her make up applied to her purfumed lotions massaged on her as well as the latest fashion.... he even had a hair stylist to come and cut her hair... the nursing home actually put in a complaint because he was so demanding on her care... and I commend him as well as the staff... in all the years in this state she never had so much as one skin rash bed sore staph infection... that is almost unheard of after all this time... I think this man truely loved her and knew her wishes... I do believe in the beginning he was hopeful that the doctors were wrong and she would come around... then reality set in... a very sad reality... she is a peace now and hopefully he can move on and be at peace that he did what was right for his wife... 



Something I did and do find odd they had found that her condition was caused from lack of potassium due to starving herself... (ie. eatting disorder) if you recall they were trying to have a baby and were in contact with a doc at the time of this "heart attack" "collapse" hence the ability to sue the doc for not finding her lack of potassium... so this all started with her starving herself... and ended with her starving...

----------


## RA

> I live across the bay from where everything went down. Terrie has been front page news here since the parents started the lawsuit.....what was it 7-8 years now? We've even had stories about how messed up the information in other news sources are.


Your proximity to the case does not provide proof imo..

----------


## Juggernaut

> Your proximity to the case does not provide proof imo..


True. But the odds that due to the location I might be prevy to up to the minute reports or the daily papers and tv news updates might put me at an advantage to lets say.......someone in Georgia or ALaska. A story told more than once tends to lose a lot of mean or becomes out right false. 

Have you followed the case?

----------


## RA

> True. But the odds that due to the location I might be prevy to up to the minute reports or the daily papers and tv news updates might put me at an advantage to lets say.......someone in Georgia or ALaska. A story told more than once tends to lose a lot of mean or becomes out right false. 
> 
> Have you followed the case?


 
Yes, and what I asked for was proof. Not someone throwing more arguments at me. If this actually did not happen then I am happy she was allowed to die.

----------


## Juggernaut

My bad bro. I didn't mean to insult you, if that's what you think I did. What kinda proof do you want? Bliss stated she read the transcrips of how she was treated in the Hospice Unit....do you hanestly think if her husband had demanded his wife be taken that well care of that he wouldn't also allow her to eat if she could? She could not swallow...period. When the "Terry" bill was being discussed in Tallahasse, Senators where stating she could swallow, move her head and respond to outside stimulation....all proven to be completely false. Also I don't believe he was trying to kill her liike her family suggested. What could he gain? Hell, an outside party offered hin A million cash to walk away and let her family have her back and he turned it down. Sounds to me as though the guy was only doing what he thought his wife wanted. There was a trial in which a judge heard from her husband and three witnesses that she had stated if she was ever in such a state she would want to be allowed to die, as would most people. The court ruled that she did say this and she should be allowed to die.....then the next motion was filed, then the next, then the next.............

I'm not throwing more arguments......I thought we were discussing.

----------


## RA

> My bad bro. I didn't mean to insult you, if that's what you think I did. What kinda proof do you want? Bliss stated she read the transcrips of how she was treated in the Hospice Unit....do you hanestly think if her husband had demanded his wife be taken that well care of that he wouldn't also allow her to eat if she could? She could not swallow...period. When the "Terry" bill was being discussed in Tallahasse, Senators where stating she could swallow, move her head and respond to outside stimulation....all proven to be completely false. Also I don't believe he was trying to kill her liike her family suggested. What could he gain? Hell, an outside party offered hin A million cash to walk away and let her family have her back and he turned it down. Sounds to me as though the guy was only doing what he thought his wife wanted. There was a trial in which a judge heard from her husband and three witnesses that she had stated if she was ever in such a state she would want to be allowed to die, as would most people. The court ruled that she did say this and she should be allowed to die.....then the next motion was filed, then the next, then the next.............
> 
> I'm not throwing more arguments......I thought we were discussing.


 
I did hear that he was offered a million to walk away but was unsure about that being true. I guess I was hoping for iron clad evidence about the husband stopping the rehab. Probably what happened was the right thing. 

Many people were arguing a "low quality of life". When you get into that its a slippery slope. But, if she didnt want to live like this, then she should be allowed to go. 

Sorry if I sounded pissed. :Wink/Grin:

----------


## Juggernaut

No worries Roid dude.......I didn't wish to cause you ill will either bro. It was a tough pill to swallow, the things that went on with this poor woman I mean.

----------

