# GENERAL FORUM > IN THE NEWS >  Pledge of allegiance unconstitutional!

## Vegas Kid

I'm sorry but I'm fucking pissed!!

The appeals court ruled that the pledge of allegiance has been declared unconstitutional because of the words "under god." This is getting fucking ridiculous. Just cuz some cock sucker brought a suit up cuz he doesn't like it, now they might be changing a tradition that we have all grown up with.

When did the minority have more rights than the majority? It's just another example of these fucking liberal judges and there stupid rulings. I hope they take everyone of these peoples paychecks and burn them cuz our money has the same words on it...'In god we trust."

I'm not religious and this really isn't about religion, it's more about the judicial system butting their heads in when it doesn't belong. Our country is turning into a fucking joke. All of this political correctness is getting out of control. First no Santa Claus then no Christmas Carols is schools, what the hell is going on?

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## Pheedno

On the issue of political correctness and an overbearing judicial system I agree, the ruling on the Pledge is getting nit picky. We can only expect for it to worsen to

On the issue of religion though, I STRONGLY believe that seperation of church and state is an extremely crucial guideline to follow. 
I went to pickup a friends child from school one time and got on a teachers ass for using religion to back up the consequences she gave out to a misbehaving student. They are paid to teach, not preach. The above ruling which you've talked about is getting a bit rediculous, but if it's what it takes to insure proper seperation, then so be it.

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## Vegas Kid

I agree church and state must be seperate, but I don't think the pledge has any real religious implications to it.

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## BigMike J

In god we trust.. thats what is printed on a dollar bill. So it seems to me if there going to say that kind of bs, the maybe they should change our currency to something less "Offensive"

The Pledge of Allegience is offensive; Not to me or to you, but to somebody who does not believe in god. Why should anybody swear under god, if they do not believe in god? That is one of the things that is supposed to make this country great, the right to choose any religioin we want. 

I don't like it Vegas, but i have to agree with it. If this country is supposed to be free then i can see how the term "under god" would/could be offensive to other religions who don't believe in our/my god.

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## Pheedno

> _Originally posted by Vegas Kid_ 
> *I agree church and state must be seperate, but I don't think the pledge has any real religious implications to it.*


It doesn't. I think it's almost humerous that a person would raise the issue of it being banned from school practice, but if the issue is raised then the government has to deal with it. In dealing with it, they have to rule a fair and realistic decision that doesn't conflict with previous decisions that help guideline church and state seperation.

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## Buddha_Red

I do not believe in the christian god at all. the pledge doesnt offend me at all.

Our country is the only one that you can spend all day collecting money from our government but in the same day say how much you hate it..

Maybe im too proud or something but the phrase.. love it or leave it comes to mind sometimes when i watch the tv.

I dont like alot of what the government does, but i love america and to say the words "so help me god" doesnt actually hurt me.

but i agree church and state do not belong together.

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## Vegas Kid

If you don't want to say the pledge then don't, but why should it be banned for everybody? Everybody should have the right to say it, if you don't want to say it then be quite and let the others who day repeat it.

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## Butch

Vegas I agree. This fuckin' country has no pride! it's the pledge of alligence (sp?). I really don't want to go into it becasue this issue pisses me off so much that I willnever stop writing. I don't want ot bore you all.

But Vegas good job...I'm with you on this!

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## Vegas Kid

Thanks Butch, I'm sure many others are as well.

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## TNT

Get a life, people!
 :LOL:  
______________________

OKay, what the hell . . . If y'all are gonna bitch about it, at the very least, read the court's opinion. You can get it from the CNN website. Then at least you'll be bitching with some knowledge about the case instead of going off on an emotional rant.

And don't presume about my opinion on this. I have a graduate degree in church-state issues, but I get _paid_ to pontificate about this kind of shit.  :Big Grin:

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## askingforit

> _Originally posted by Vegas Kid_ 
> *If you don't want to say the pledge then don't, but why should it be banned for everybody? Everybody should have the right to say it, if you don't want to say it then be quite and let the others who day repeat it.*


this is the problem with it though....
we have kids in class that are forcefed the pledge of allegiance, kids don't have the standards/morals/strength to choose yet if they want to say it or not. Keeping this in classrooms is interfering with a parents ability to raise their child as they want. If I wanted to raise my kid (I don't have one) as an atheist, this would put other beliefs in their head. Not everyone is going to agree on religion, I think it should be kept out of schools altogether...if I don't want my kid saying that shit then I don't want them hearing it either. If people want their kids to believe in this "one nation under god" BS then they should take em to church, end of story. 

PS...I've always thought that the "in God we Trust" was stupid on our currencies...IMO, they should stop printing that nonsense too!

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## Vegas Kid

The problem here is that most people think this is about religion. It's not. These statements are ment to be patriotic and a part of our nation, not some religious statement influencing kids on what religion to practice. Nobody is forced to say anything. They can stand and be quiet.

TNT-I'm sorry that a person of your intelligence doesn't give a shit about something so important. This is a huge decision and it's not like we're talking about the newest pokemon cards, this could lay the foundation for many decisions like this in the future.

Pretty soon they'll want to rewrite the constituion cuz that has so called religious refrences in it.

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## palme

The constituion should be re-writen, it says everyone are allowed to carry a weapon, well it isnt the wild west anymore is it? Get more police officers and no one will have the need to protect themselves with guns.

How many toes did i step on now?

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## TNT

> _Originally posted by Vegas Kid_ 
> *Pretty soon they'll want to rewrite the constituion cuz that has so called religious refrences in it.*


People, please, do your primary source research. The Constitution has only one religious reference in it (in Article VI - to the effect that no religious test shall be required for public office). Ditto the Bill of Rights (establishment and free exercise, mentioned in the First Amendment). The Constitution is an overtly _secular_ document.




> _Originally posted by palme_ 
> *How many toes did i step on now?*


Keep stepping. That was damn funny.

Face it, campers, you have just seen how diverse this forum is. We have witnessed two distinct positions on the Pledge, plus a position that is distinctly different to that of the gun nuts on the board. Sorry, the gun _advocates_.

In other words, on issues political or religious, there will _always_ be diversity of opinion. You can discuss those opinions intelligently, or you can bitch and moan, trying to shove your opinions down other people's throats. I suggest that the former is far more civil than the latter, and that a healthy dose of humor is _still_ in order.

Intelligent discussion and discourse? I'll take it _any_ time over mindless shouting from a fake pedestal.

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## Vegas Kid

Look palme this is not a flame but you should definitely look at our constitution and read it before you make comments. 

I think you're referring to the right to bear arms which has nothing to do with everybody walking around with guns. BTW the cowboys came after the const. was written.

I don't need a gun to protect myself although I own one, but I have the right and that's what's important. I don't know what it's like in Sweden, so I won't comment on your laws, but you should be more familiar with our before making a statement.

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## Pheedno

Guns. I own them and I will have my concealed liscense in about 2 months. I'm not a gunslingin cowboy, just an American excercising his rights. Rights make us free! 
Where did that comment come into play anyway?

On the pledge. The original version did not have "One Nation Under god" written in it. That was added in 1956. Why don't they just edit it to the original and everybody can be satisfied with a comprimise.
"One nation, indivisible, and with liberty and justice for all."
Patriotism stands with the practice of the pledge in classrooms and you don't offend anybody who might sue.

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## palme

Thats another thing with America i dont get, everyone sue´s for petty things.

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## superbeast

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not some holyroller or anything. In fact I haven't been to church in years. Our forefathers were religious men who believed in God. That is what this country is based on, their beliefs. Now, we have let all these foreigners in with their different beliefs and now they have more say than we do. If you don't believe in God, go find somewhere else to live, or at least if the idea of God offends you, then get the f*ck out.

This country was at one time the greatest nation in the world. I just wish I could be as proud to live here as my parents once were. This country does so much stupid shit, we've let it become a mess.

I'msure the founding fathers would be in shock at what this country has become, and would have written things a little differently.

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## Butch

Palne, you are right. People do sue over everything here. But thsoe are the ignorant and poor fucking people looking for an easy way out. However, most of them do know that they can settle out of court and get money (which in a way makes them smart). It's very compolicated. Somehitng you would never know about considering you do not live here. 

And I am not flaming you here, but I don't believe that you can really comment on the political issues we have going on here. You don't know the whole stories behind everything here. Just like we cannot comment on what is going on over htere. WE and you only hear about the big deals going on. Everyone has an opinion. And you are intitled to that. And it's not the Wild WIld West here. There a lot of other countries that have it a lot worse.A We actaully are one of the fortunate ones.

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## Buddha_Red

Im afraid our children are being taught if you dont like something lets ban it completely. Since when is a pledge to honor our country something that should be shunned like some porno mag.

I totally agree that church and state should be sepperate. Im wondering how many americans would still not like it if the "so help me god" was removed. 

Im not sure there is an answer but if we teach our kids that we dont need to honor america, how can we care if they dont honor anything or anyone else.

agreed that is a blanket statement but the whole PC thing is getting out of hand. Next its something like lets ban christmas because the lights offend someone.

Either way, for or against the "god" issue its time we worry about gangs,gun and drug abuse. get those fixed and i will be the first to stand in line to remove the "god issue" from everything.

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## palme

Hehe Butch offcourse you are right i cant get involved in this debate seriusly cause frankly, i dont have all the information. But i tryed to get a foot in anyway.

I think im going to start a new thread about sueing or guns.

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## Neo

How did this topic switch over to "the right to bear arms?" I think finding the pledge to be unconstitutional was a load of BS that makes us look incredibly dim-witted to the rest of the world. We squabble over our culture and never seem to take pride in our country's traditions anymore. 

My favorite holiday is the 4th of July because I love the way people will come together, have a family and friends over for a cookout, and enjoy a day that takes pride in what this country stands for....freedom. I wish we'd take pride more often, and stop worrying all the time about what is PC.....

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## D-bol

they want religion out they have alot of work ahead of them, they have to change our declaration of independence , our constitution, look they even start congress everday with a prayer. our rights off life liberty property and pursuit to happines are natural rights given to us by god, they have alot of work ahead to change all that, its the structure our government was founded on. this ruling wont stand long anyway, the judges out of cali that did this are liberal, even the democrats immediately came out aginst the ruling becuase they knew the heat would be on them, and we know republicans are against it because of christioan colation. it wont stand

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## bizznach

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG W/ SOME OF U!!! have u ever even been in a history class "God" is the reason this country was founded to flee the religious persecution of the catholic church and worship freely. and who the hell put a gun to there heads and made them say "in god we trust" if u want ur kid to be an athiest tell them not to say it,no one is makin them. and how is the word god pushing a religion on a kid it does not speak of a certian religon. god could be jesus or it could mean alah or mohamad or buddah and so on it is not pushing one or ne religion on ne one.i hate all this damn political corectedness and these bleeding heart liberals they need to get some balls and start helping this county instead of tearing it down from the inside. 

so hell ya to superbeast and vegaskid and all the other REAL americans keep on rockin in the free world. and "in god we trust"

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## THE BIG RED MACHINE

Damn you Southies take your Patronage too seriously sometimes.  :LOL: Gotta be more laid back like us Canadians.  :Wink:  Dont feel so bad, your country isnt led around by its nose by the Stuffy..uh, I mean Royal family. Theyve got more skeletons in their closet than any Jerry Springer Guest.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## palme

so hell ya to superbeast and vegaskid and all the other REAL americans keep on rockin in the free world. 

Dont even get me started on the REAL Americans issue...if you know your history you will know what i mean.

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## Buddha_Red

I do like the fact that we can post about this and have it not end up a cussing contest. I find it very intresting that the issue talked about around my town isnt about "god"

its about how american you are. I was betting it would turn into a religion issue but so far it hasnt in my home town.

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## Vegas Kid

It's not about god or about being a real american. It's about the PC thing getting out of control and the minority overruling the majority. Just cuz 1 person doesn't like it doesn't mean everybody else has to suffer.

I can't believe those damn liberals in Liberfornia had the balls to overturn congress. I hope those democrats finally realize what a bunch of fuck ups their federal judges are and they finally approve Bush's appointee's.

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## jeffylyte

ok ive had about enough of people talking without actually knowing what they are talking about.

1) did anybody here besides me actually read the opinions (say from findlaw?) probably not, as much of the decision becomes patently obvious
2) the pledge was not ruled unconstitutional, just unconst to say in school.
3) "under god" was not origiannly in the pledge. It was added specifically to for the government to endorse religion and god.
4) In god we trust was not the original motto. It used to be E pluribus unum...one out of many.
5) the constitution is secular... for a reason... the forefathers were waaay ahead of their time and based our government on ancient greece and rome.
6) in reading the decision, the majority had a much better argument citing many precedent cases, the minority cited none and had a logical flaw. His argument (de mminimus) means he should have voted against part C, whether or not the litigant had standing. No injury... no standing.
7) the "liberal" court are hemmed in by previous precedent. They know this and are uncorfortable with the decision. thats why it was suspended for further review so fast.

this stems from a case in alabama where the state changed a moment of silence to a moment of silence and prayer. This was found unconstitutional as it was done for the purpose of promoting religion.

using this the 9th circuit had no choice, as "under god" was added for the same reason (D E Eisenhower said so)

dont blame the 9th circuit, blame this conservative supreme court as it really was thier problem

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## BigMike J

anybody else have any views they would like to express? I want to hear more

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## Buddha_Red

One very common and most used version was this

'I pledge allegiance to *my Flag* and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' 

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, *'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.'* 

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, and backing from joe macarthy-ism, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Thats what i found out so far, Im happy that this thread was posted. it made me take a hard look at the words we have spoke all these years.

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## jbrand

It's nice to know that our innovative judicial system who mandates swearing in over a bible prior to testimony has found "under god" to not be politically correct.

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## EXCESS

This is perfect. While you Americans fight this out, us Canadians can finally seize control of your country! HAAAAA,HAA,HAA,HAA, HAA..(evil laugh)...

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## Vegas Kid

Don't even get me started on Canadians, ehhhh!!

What's that all abooooot?

Nah, I used to hate Canada, but now I'm actually thinking about living there one day if it wasn't so damn cold. 

On a political note: I don't like how Canada's policy on imigration doesn't deport people without proper documentation. This along with their open borders, doesn't help America by letting potential terrorists come across the border.

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## BigMike J

> _Originally posted by Vegas Kid_ 
> *Don't even get me started on Canadians, ehhhh!!
> 
> What's that all abooooot?
> 
> *



What the hell are you all talking aboooot.. .lmfao. :LOL:   :LOL:

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## Vegas Kid

EHH, oohhh, is that a moose?

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## EXCESS

> _Originally posted by Vegas Kid_ 
> *On a political note: I don't like how Canada's policy on imigration doesn't deport people without proper documentation. This along with their open borders, doesn't help America by letting potential terrorists come across the border.*


Pass the blame, eh? I didn't know that Canada chooses who gets to enter the US. Maybe thats because US Customs decides that. Don't believe everything your politicians tell you. If they don't blame someone they'd have to accept the blame themselves. What you don't know won't make you panic and point fingers at your leaders, and they know exactly how to manipulate situations like this.

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## Vegas Kid

Then why doesn't Canada require proper identification to come into the country? They have arabs running around without identification and your gov. does nothing about it. It's no secret that the world see's Canada as a place for refuge without any repercusions.

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## Vegas Kid

> _Originally posted by EXCESS_ 
> *
> Pass the blame, eh? I didn't know that Canada chooses who gets to enter the US. Maybe thats because US Customs decides that.*


And another thing: We have 4000 miles of border, we can't stop everything.

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## EXCESS

All Americans are obese. 

Now that isn't true, but I just judged an entire nation based on a story that I saw on the news. You're doing the same thing. Canada does require proper identification to enter the country. We do allow a larger percentage (per capita) of people to claim refugee status and our system is not perfect. Show me your perfect system and I'll show you Mexico and Cuba. You're basing your entire opinion on sensationalized stories, rather than the big picture.

FYI: Under a new agreement signed yesterday, each country will not allow a refugee to enter the country if the other country has denied them access.

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## Vegas Kid

Most Americans are obese, I'll give you that.

Our system is anything but perfect that's for damn sure.

I'm not basing an entire nation I'm just telling you how I see the facts. 

I'm glad to hear you guys passed a bill that is a step in the right direction. They should still detain people without proper id and not allow them to go walking free. They can't possibly keep track of all those people. I just think that Canada should do more about imigration especially after Sept. 11. After all, anybody can come to Canada and claim to be a refugee and you have to recognize it under your current laws.

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## EXCESS

> _Originally posted by Vegas Kid_ 
> *And another thing: We have 4000 miles of border, we can't stop everything.*


You have approximately 7,610 miles of land border and 12,380 miles of coastline. Canada's coastline alone is approximately 7 times longer than the entire US border. This isn't intended to compete with you (I could care less about length of borders), but it does show that there are always going to be people sneaking through the cracks. Its easy to criticize, but a lot harder to come up with a solution.

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## EXCESS

> _Originally posted by Vegas Kid_ 
> *I'm glad to hear you guys passed a bill that is a step in the right direction.*


You guys did it too. Tom Ridge (US Director of Homeland Security) met with Canadian Minister of Foreign Affairs John Manley this Friday at Niagara Falls.

On a semi-related note, this guy obviously didn't know about Canada's relaxed immigration laws:

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWS/speed_jun28-cp.html  :LOL:

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## Vegas Kid

> _Originally posted by EXCESS_ 
> *
> Its easy to criticize, but a lot harder to come up with a solution.*


I agree. Normal people like you and I could come up with a solution, however when the government and politicians get involved it becomes impossible. Lets hope for the best and keep both our countries safe from terrorists.

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## THE BIG RED MACHINE

Finally, I didn't think that this pissing match was ever gonna end. :Wink:  

It's a good ting to eh, cuz a lot of us Canadians didn't know what youz guyz were talking aboot for a while der eh. :Stick Out Tongue:  Hows that Vegas? :LOL:

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## Vegas Kid

Big Red you are funny. BTW, not a pissing match but rather an intelligent discussion among differently opionated people. I like discussions even if people have different view points than me.

Now that I'm used to the southern accent, I'll have to make a trip up there to check you guys out.

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## tt333

Look what happend when the took god out of the school, all the school shootings started happening. Now there doing this, theres no telling.

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## jeffylyte

what i find hilarious is that all the right wing southern babtists are absolutely nuts over this. The ironic thing is that the pledge was written by a socialist and the words "under god" were added after a compaign by a catholic group

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## The French Curler

I have a friend that is Buddhist and he isn't offended whatsoever. In fact, he thinks the change is ridiculous and pointless.

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## maguilagorilla

well i personally dont think anyone should say the pledge if they dont totally understand it. i mean how much can a 8 or 9 year old know about pledging allegiance? some adults dont even understand it completely. and just because a person chooses not to say doesnt make him less of an american.what about the kids that get teased about not saying those phrases due to religios reasons or other,nobody stood up for them? yet alot of people are real upset over those that cant say it because someone felt that their kid neede attention. and as for that foreigners comment that some mentioned before, wake up! almost all of the population living here was a foreigner at one time or another, the only TRUE americans are the native americans, and the "mexicanos" that lived in the states bought out by the u.s from mex. my family has lived in texas before texas was texas , it was called tejas then! so dont tell me about being TRUe AMERICANS. but everyone has a right to their opnion and thats what makes this country great,wether your an aethiest,religous,patriotic or non-patriotic,republican,democrat,left wing ,right wing, budahist, monk,catholic,protestant,etc. etc. etc. everyone is entitled to theur opinion

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## mique

I agree with butch. this is pissing me off. dont these people have anything better to do? this is an old statement and kind of corney, but WTF! love it or leave it. or shut the fuck up

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## Tock

Why not just take out the two words "under god" from the pledge and be done with it? As I recall, the only reason the court declared the Pledge unconstitutional was solely because kids in public schools (who were required by law to be there) were being required to recite those two words. Can't imagine why anyone would think the government should require anyone to say anything about the existance of a god. 

I agree, though, that the issue is a minor one, and so minor that there shouldn't be much opposition to just removing the words "under god" and getting on with our workouts . . .

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## 3Vandoo

You want example!

here in Canada,

The crosses are out of school but they bring scarfs and kirpan in and we cannot do shit

Xmas decoration might be ban and xmas carols might be changed to accomodate 0.01% of the non christian in Quebec!

In Scotland a Muslim sued the state because he felt alienated by the Queen's crest on his police headgear because he was showing a christian cross.

WELCOME TO THE WESTERN WORLD colonization lads!!!!!!

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## stepdown879

Quit ur ****in bitching sum ppl dont lik it so wut u grew up with it .cry a ****in river.quit protesting and do sumthing useful and go out help the homeless instead of bitching lik a little grl.

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## CarbonCopy

So what about the kids that want to say the pledge where are their rights? I think it is a bunch of BS myself. Too many liberal Judges are slowing trying to take away all of our rights. 

CC

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## THE BIG RED MACHINE

Why oh why was this thread brought back???  :Frown:

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## johnsomebody

How pledging allegiance "to the republic where witches stand" is going to make someone a better American I've never understood.

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## Tock

> So what about the kids that want to say the pledge where are their rights? I think it is a bunch of BS myself. Too many liberal Judges are slowing trying to take away all of our rights. 
> 
> CC



They are free to recite it if they wish. The only difference is that the state cannot require anyone to profess a religious beleif, and if the school district or the legislature has a law that says the kids gotta say, "one nation under God," well, there you go. They can't say "one nation under Allah," or "one nation under The Lord and Lady" (for you Wiccans), or even just "one nation . . ." When the law sez ya gotta say "under God" and you don't beleive a God exists, or that the only True God is Allah, then you're forcing a kid to profess a religious beleif that he doesn't agree with, and that's unconstitutional. 

Really, it's just a pledge . . . it won't hurt to remove the requirement that everyone must say "under god." So they may as well just do it and get it over with. If the kids want to volunteer the "under god" part, it won't be a problem. 

Sheesh . . . why do I have to solve all the easy issues?
--Tock

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